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80% => The Nevillew General Discussion Forum => Topic started by: herthab on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 14:23:35



Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 14:23:35
There's been a real lack of any political debates on her for a while now, which is a pity as I used to enjoy reading the informed(?) opinions of such a great cross section of society. Let's face it, the only thing we all have in common is our football club so opinions will also vary considerably, as will our political stances.

As much as Russell Brand comes across as a bit of a tit, I'm finding myself agreeing with a lot of what he says; the current political parties are all unappealing and uninspiring. Abstaining from the process however can't be a solution, can it?

What is the single biggest issue facing The UK and how would you like it addressed?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 14:33:57
Ban all political debate?

What actually changes when there is a change of government?  To the average person I guess not a lot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 14:35:35
As much as Russell Brand comes across as a bit of a tit, I'm finding myself agreeing with a lot of what he says

More worryingly, a lot of people feel the same way about Nigel Farage.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Utter Kant on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 14:54:54
The biggest single issue the UK is facing right now is public apathy. If people are not informed about our politics then how can it be reformed? Many people seem to have little/no idea (or interest) about the way politics works, nor what the consequences of an alternative political landscape would be. Proper, comprehensive change, regardless of what that change is, will not arrive unless people become more engaged and politically informed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 15:00:04
How about the fact that our electoral system has a pretty solid chance of leaving UKIP (13% in the polls) and the Greens (9%) with 5-6 seats between them while even the zombie-like Lib Dems will probably retain about 30 seats on 9% of the vote because their vote is nicely concentrated?

The system is insane. I realise that AV got rejected in a referendum but that was only a marginally less shit system.

It just doesn't seem democratic in any sense that there's such a ludicrous disparity between the % of the vote and the number of seats allocated.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 15:14:14
^^ which is why I dislike all things political. That,  and the arrogance of people who think they are right about absolutely everything (voters and politicians)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 15:16:19
Also, career politicians.

The fact that the guy in charge of public finances is "qualified" to do this because he's got a 2:1 in Modern History quite frankly scares me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 15:17:55
What is the single biggest issue facing The UK and how would you like it addressed?

Quite simply climate change, and finding answers to the questions raised about managing planetary resources, if a slow down in global warming is to be achieved.

The summit in Lima at the weekend, at least on the surface came to some agreement for a way forward to be further debated in a year's time in Paris, but time is of the essence.  If anything is to be achieved, then a lot of politicians are going to have to make some very unpopular decisions...as for this country, the BBC wont even allow The Greens to a debate before the next election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 15:24:45
As much as Russell Brand comes across as a bit of a tit, I'm finding myself agreeing with a lot of what he says; the current political parties are all unappealing and uninspiring. Abstaining from the process however can't be a solution, can it?

He might be a bell end, but he makes more sense than any of the self-serving tosspots fucking about wasting our taxes. I've not voted since I was a teen, but I will vote next time and I will vote UKIP.

I hate politics and I absolutely despise politicians. I'm voting for UKIP as it'd be nice to at least attempt to fuck the twattish system up. (Not that I believe it'll have any effect at all.)

(http://i.imgur.com/k39jtsT.jpg)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Utter Kant on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 15:29:55
How about the fact that there's a pretty good chance that our electoral system has a pretty solid chance of leaving UKIP (13% in the polls) and the Greens (9%) with 5-6 seats between them while even the zombie-like Lib Dems will probably retain about 30 seats on 9% of the vote because their vote is nicely concentrated?

The system is insane. I realise that AV got rejected in a referendum but that was only a marginally less shit system.

It just doesn't seem democratic in any sense that there's such a ludicrous disparity between the % of the vote and the number of seats allocated.

Agreed. However, since AV was trounced there appears to be no appetite for reform; immigration, welfare, NHS etc. seem to take precedent over the core issue of improving our democratic process in the public conscience. The average Joe couldn't tell you how other electoral systems work, what the benefits and drawbacks are, let alone which one they would replace first past the post with.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 15:33:27
Also, career politicians.

This was my second choice axe to grind. Awful.


Title: Re:
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 15:47:13
How do we address my apathy. Currently I intend to draw a massive cock (with spunk bubble) on my ballot form.

Conservatives are posh twats.

Labour may as well be the conservatives these days.

UKIP .. Ferage is head knob jockey of a bunch of closet xenophobes.

Lib dems are a bunch of lying bastards who sacrificed key principles so that clegg could nosh off Cameron while in power.

But most of all, what's the point. Nothing changes. Manifestos get backtracked on in a blink of an eye. And the country is financially screwed anyway.

I'd look at independents maybe. But Independents have no clout.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 15:53:22
I reckon Scotland is the biggest issue at present. The concessions that were offered were rushed and not thought out properly and as a result things could very easily turn in to a massive cluster fuck after the next election.

There is a very real chance we'll end up with a coalition government between Labour and the SNP, with them only having a minority of the seats/votes in England/Wales/Northern Ireland. Not convinced such a government would last 5 years.

It would be complicated further if changes to voting are pushed through before the election, reducing or removing the voting power of Scottish MP's. Giving a Labour/SNP government who wouldn't have a majority for non-Scottish votes.

Then add UKIP in to the mix and fuck knows where it could end.

Having a weak or non-functional government would be bad news all round.



Title: Re:
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 15:56:42
Lib dems are a bunch of lying bastards who sacrificed key principles so that clegg could nosh off Cameron while in power.

I really don't get this argument. The Lib Dems manifesto said what they would do if they won the election.

They didn't win the election but by forming a government with the Tories they were able to get some of the stuff they wanted.

They were never get it all and they had to make concessions. I think Clegg did a pretty good job with the negotiations.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 16:10:30
I really don't get this argument. The Lib Dems manifesto said what they would do if they won the election.

They didn't win the election but by forming a government with the Tories they were able to get some of the stuff they wanted.

They were never get it all and they had to make concessions. I think Clegg did a pretty good job with the negotiations.
I really don't think the LD's have got very much of what they wanted but they have stopped the posh boys from doing a lot of what they really wanted to do!  Their biggest single mistake was going back on their election pledge of no increase in university tuition fees - that will be remembered for a long time to come!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 16:32:59
I really don't think the LD's have got very much of what they wanted but they have stopped the posh boys from doing a lot of what they really wanted to do!  Their biggest single mistake was going back on their election pledge of no increase in university tuition fees - that will be remembered for a long time to come!!

Think they got more than could be expected given their share of the votes and MP's.

Don't get people saying they won't vote for them again over the university fees as every other party would have done it as well.

The new vastly higher personal allowance is solely down to the Lib Dems, this benefited millions of people on low wages and they don't get anywhere near the credit they deserve for it.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 16:35:07
How do we address my apathy. Currently I intend to draw a massive cock (with spunk bubble) on my ballot form.


Your best bet is to leave the ballot paper completely blank. It counts as none of the above - spoiled ballots are ignored whatever you draw on them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 16:39:43
Your best bet is to leave the ballot paper completely blank. It counts as none of the above - spoiled ballots are ignored whatever you draw on them.

But surely drawing a massive cock is more fun?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 16:44:10
But surely drawing a massive cock is more fun?

 :) It might be but depending on where you draw it, it might count as a vote. When I stood, someone had written next to the Lib Dem candidate that he was a "fucking wanker". It counted as a vote because it was mark against the candidate and no-one else.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 16:50:04
Don't get people saying they won't vote for them again over the university fees as every other party would have done it as well.

Perhaps, but the Lib Dems to a man signed a commitment not to vote to raise fees. Full stop, no caveats. They then tripled them. Was it a stupid thing to sign? Yes. Does it smack of the very worst of politics? Absolutely.

I voted Lib Dem at the last election. I may even do so again at this (It's Bath, it's them or the Tories under aforementioned shit system). But if Labour can unseat Clegg in Sheffield Hallam I shall be dancing around my flat at 4am and laughing myself into a hernia.


Title: Re: Re: Re:
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 17:37:40
I really don't get this argument. The Lib Dems manifesto said what they would do if they won the election.

They didn't win the election but by forming a government with the Tories they were able to get some of the stuff they wanted.

They were never get it all and they had to make concessions. I think Clegg did a pretty good job with the negotiations.
You really don't get why people get pissed off at them for abandoning their key principles, ones that were absolutely fundamental in people voting for them, in order to power share?

Ok then....


That reminds me, add to the list people who vote for a party simply because they/their family always have done .


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobnob on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 18:04:41
No one should be allowed to become an MP until they have done a proper job for at least ten years.

Example in point Ed Milliband, a professional politico who would not know what a days work is if it bit him in the arse!

Too many like him telling the rest of us that they know best. Wankers all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 18:52:15
Vote Green!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 19:22:18
Russell Brand is trying to sell a book
Nigel Farage is looking for celebrity and leads a rag tag bunch of dangerous nutters
Nick Clegg is responsible for an unelectable party that has no proper policies
Ed Milliband is unelectable
David Cameron is slimy and cringeworthy


Title: Re: Re: Re:
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 20:02:09
You really don't get why people get pissed off at them for abandoning their key principles, ones that were absolutely fundamental in people voting for them, in order to power share?

So it would have been better for them to hold their ground, refuse to make the concession, not to be a part of the government and to have absolutely zero of their policies implemented? The poorest people in the country would have got shafted even more by the Tories, but the Lib Dems would have still had their principles intact - which is all that counts right?

I can understand people being pissed off but you also need to live in the real world. Though if you want to have a go at them, it should be them making a promise they could never guarantee to keep, rather than the breaking of it.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 20:08:22
I think this coming election and the summer following could be extremely interesting...

Tory - whatever happens Cameron is going to have a massive problem post election regarding Europe - in power they are going to push for a referendum if out of power  (if he survives) party going to want to head right.

Labour  - it get it would have to rapidly come up with some policies... If don't get in Unions already stated they may split which would remove most funding and hugely change the political landscape.

Lib Dems - I  suspect in for a kicking, however what would the Tories done without their calming influence!  However if they can cut loose post election and find a leader post Clegg i do wonder what will happen going forward?

UKIP - I wonder at what stage will they become a mainstream party and begin to be treated and subject to critical scrutiny as per the others. Can you imagine the outcry if one of the other leaders made some of the statements Farage makes!


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 20:09:52
Vote Green!
Please don't! Having had Green local councillors for 10+ plus years up here they are the ultimate one issue party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 20:12:22
UKIP - I wonder at what stage will they become a mainstream party and begin to be treated and subject to critical scrutiny as per the others. Can you imagine the outcry if one of the other leaders made some of the statements Farage makes!

They get tons of scrutiny. Every time one of them says something mental they go up in the polls. It's baffling.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 20:26:36
Well I'm surprised to read more on the Lib Dems here than virtually everyone else, and much of it a sight more balanced than their media portrayal. I didn't vote because as an ex-pat of more than 15 years' standing, I don't get to vote anywhere any more (but that's a grudge for another day), but I think the LDs get precious little credit for a lot of work they've done in tempering the Tories, while being predictably rogered by them at every turn. They took that risk when they opted to sleep with the devil rather than be held responsible for forcing a second election, but I'm sorry that they'll inevitably get hammered next time round, while dribbling knee-jerks like Farage are given the benefit of the doubt simply because no-one has yet seen what an almighty clusterfuck his merry band of bigots and retards would offer up given the faintest sniff of real responsibility for anything.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 20:27:28


UKIP - I wonder at what stage will they become a mainstream party and begin to be treated and subject to critical scrutiny as per the others. Can you imagine the outcry if one of the other leaders made some of the statements Farage makes!
White, working class, ex Labour, ex Union card carrying member and non skilled. Nobody speaks for the real working class anymore.

UKIP will get my vote this time round, maybe the election after that. By then they will be discovered as Tories with a European fixation. then back to spoiling my ballet

So in answer to your question, eight years max.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 20:32:45
Please don't! Having had Green local councillors for 10+ plus years up here they are the ultimate one issue party.

UKIP are/were a one issue party and look at them now.  Although I think a lot more people ultimately care more about UKIP one issue than the Green's one.

The next election is going to be quite interesting, there are any number of potential outcomes considering all the possible collation partners if that's what is needed.  This election should have be Labours for the taking but the choice of the 2 Ed's for the top positions is going to cost them I believe.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 20:33:59
UKIP will get my vote this time round

I could have seen that coming


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 20:34:42
Ukip are truely horrible people. Do a bit of research and you'll see for yourselves. They'd be so much worse than the abominable Tories and that's saying something.
I'll vote Labour as they are the only realistic option, best of a bad bunch.

The biggest problem in my opinion is the population explosion. Worldwide and nationally. That in itself is a major factor in climate change and many other of the world's problems.




Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 20:58:25
So it would have been better for them to hold their ground, refuse to make the concession, not to be a part of the government and to have absolutely zero of their policies implemented? The poorest people in the country would have got shafted even more by the Tories,

It was a hung parliament, the Tories couldn't have done what they wanted carte Blanche.

And yes if it means betraying what you say are your fundamental principles you absolutely should not sell out.

We'll see that a large majority of their voters agree with that comes election day. After that fuckwit clegg will be stood down hopefully.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 21:03:48
To be fair to the tories they are the only major party who haven't sold out their fundamental principles. 

They have remained a bunch of absolute cast iron cunts.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 21:07:32
I would never vote for UKIP, but I do recognise that there is a good reason why they exist.  The other 3 main political parties have, over a period of decades, refused to address an issue that is of great concern to a significant portion of the electorate: net migration.  It is not the concept of migration that many object to, but the numbers involved.  For many years, the main political parties have looked the other way and have refused to consider the issue.  And worse, they have been instrumental in even closing down the debate on the subject (for example Gordon Brown and his 'bigoted woman' comment about Gillian Duffy).

All UKIP is is a vent for the frustrations of millions who needed a voice for their feelings.  Once the other 3 parties do address the issue sensibly - and recognise that having a population policy is not something to be ashamed of - support for UKIP will atrophy.

For the first time in my life, I honestly have no idea who I will vote for in the next election.

Tories...no chance.  My local candidate is an arch-homophobe and Section 28 supporter.

Labour...I could never trust them with the economy, especially while Ed Balls is in a position of influence.  They still don't get what went wrong in the early 2000s.

Lib Dems...used to get my vote, but I'm not sure what they are for any more.

UKIP...single issue party with a fringe that I could never get in to bed with.

And on top of all that, my vote in a FPTP voting system is useless/worthless anyway.  The Tories could put a pantomime horse up for election here, and the horse would win.  Voting is utterly pointless here.  It influences nothing.  There's a part of me that does not feel easy with this, but I may well not even bother voting next time around.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 21:22:12
White, working class, ex Labour, ex Union card carrying member and non skilled. Nobody speaks for the real working class anymore.

UKIP will get my vote this time round, maybe the election after that. By then they will be discovered as Tories with a European fixation. then back to spoiling my ballet

So in answer to your question, eight years max.

I can see why working class Labour voters would lean toward Farage and UKIP, but if they bothered to understand his views a bit more than the anti-immigration sound bites in the press they'd realise he's perhaps even more of a capitalist than Cameron.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 21:27:39
I've been a labour man all my life until a couple of years ago but wouldn't touch them with a fucking barge pole at the moment. Any party that has Ed Balls and Yvette Copper in deserve nothing but utter contempt. Every attempt to talk immigration was shouted down as racism. Well now you want to talk about it, go fuck yourselves you racist snotgobblers.
I could never vote Tory. Lib Dems as well as selling their souls are a bunch of sexual deviants.
Greens - no.
UKIP - yes. I don't mind being called a xenophobe, nutter or whatever. I'm not actually that bothered about immigration, that's a by product. I don't want to be a member of such a corrupt and self serving institution.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: spacey on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 21:45:42
I can never understand it when people say that they'd never vote Tory but they'll vote Ukip. They're led and bankrolled by former Tories, their 2 MPs are former Tories and a fair chunk of their prominent members are former Tories. 


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 21:57:39
To be fair to the tories they are the only major party who haven't sold out their fundamental principles. 

They have remained a bunch of absolute cast iron cunts.
Indeed, I would never vote Tory but I think what Labour have done is a bigger u turn and betrayal of their true members!


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 22:19:14
We'll see that a large majority of their voters agree with that comes election day. After that fuckwit clegg will be stood down hopefully.

I'm sure we will, I'm just struggling to see what it will achieve. Other than giving an outright majority to the Tories/UKIP or Labour/SNP, both of which will result in even less Lib Dem policies making it. Seems counter productive to me, though of course you'll have the comfort of Clegg getting his comeuppance.

I voted Tory and I'm appalled by what they've done to the poorest and least fortunate. Fuck only knows what they would have done without the Lib Dems reigning them in. Without the Lib Dem's in coalition I can only see the Tories arse raping the poor even more and Labour bankrupting the country even worse than they managed last time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 23:22:35
I can never understand it when people say that they'd never vote Tory but they'll vote Ukip. They're led and bankrolled by former Tories, their 2 MPs are former Tories and a fair chunk of their prominent members are former Tories. 
Quite simple Tories want in UKIP want out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, December 19, 2014, 09:52:01
I agree with spacey.
If you look at ukip aside from the in or out of Europe issue you will see just how far away from Labour or the left they are. I think working-class former Labour voters will be apalled by them if they researched a bit about them.
I find it worrying that people will actually give those utter cunts their vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Friday, December 19, 2014, 09:52:49
Looks like I'm in a massive minority here, as for the first time in my life I'll be voting Conservative. Simply because I don't trust anyone else to run the economy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, December 19, 2014, 10:13:30
In the sense that Labour would just go on a spending spree again, I agree. But to say that the Tories have been "running" the economy is nonsense - it's been more by luck than judgement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Friday, December 19, 2014, 10:14:01
I can never understand it when people say that they'd never vote Tory but they'll vote Ukip. They're led and bankrolled by former Tories, their 2 MPs are former Tories and a fair chunk of their prominent members are former Tories. 
Exactly this.

I will never ever vote Tory and UKIP are just a xenophibic Tory led party.

I am between Labour and Liberal but the Libs lost a lot of supporters for being a soft touch in the coalition and Labour are led by several idiots not just the leader.

I live in one of the strongest Liberal seats in the country so not actually much point in voting as David Laws got 55% of the vote last time and is a shoe in no matter what in the next election too.

But pretty much all of the parties are lying wankers anyway who are only in it for their own personal gain and with me being on very low income none of them will benefit me whatsoever.

What this country needs is a new party that will benefit the low paid and not just the high paid, one who taxes companies fairly and if you earn massive amounts of money then you have to pay your dues and have no loopholes to save paying taxes, and one that looks after the young/infirm/elderly but get the idle long term work shy people into work by creating employment and giving a living wage to the low paid possibly by taxing the very highest earners (£500k per year) at a higher rate.

It won't happen in my lifetime and I don't expect many people on here to agree with me either.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Friday, December 19, 2014, 10:16:55
You don't have to do a lot of research into UKIP to see they're not into helping the working class and currently sit on the right of the Tories. Its for the other parties to explain why they've allowed a right wing party to gain this kind of popularity so quickly. (also people who in the past who have shouted racist at the first opportunity when immigration was raised)
As immigrations effects on the lower wage is my personal concern, then UKIP is mine and other old style Labour voters obvious short term answer.
Providing UKIP didn't win an outright election. Then I really would be in the shit. As I will if the Tories get in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Friday, December 19, 2014, 10:19:10
Exactly this.

I will never ever vote Tory and UKIP are just a xenophibic Tory led party.

I am between Labour and Liberal but the Libs lost a lot of supporters for being a soft touch in the coalition and Labour are led by several idiots not just the leader.

I live in one of the strongest Liberal seats in the country so not actually much point in voting as David Laws got 55% of the vote last time and is a shoe in no matter what in the next election too.

But pretty much all of the parties are lying wankers anyway who are only in it for their own personal gain and with me being on very low income none of them will benefit me whatsoever.

What this country needs is a new party that will benefit the low paid and not just the high paid, one who taxes companies fairly and if you earn massive amounts of money then you have to pay your dues and have no loopholes to save paying taxes, and one that looks after the young/infirm/elderly but get the idle long term work shy people into work by creating employment and giving a living wage to the low paid possibly by taxing the very highest earners (£500k per year) at a higher rate.

It won't happen in my lifetime and I don't expect many people on here to agree with me either.
I'd agree with most of this. Sounds like we should move to Sweden.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Friday, December 19, 2014, 10:22:33
In the sense that Labour would just go on a spending spree again, I agree. But to say that the Tories have been "running" the economy is nonsense - it's been more by luck than judgement.

Simply put I have more faith in the current chancellor's tactics than any other potential chancellor.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, December 19, 2014, 10:28:13
You don't have to do a lot of research into UKIP to see they're not into helping the working class and currently sit on the right of the Tories. Its for the other parties to explain why they've allowed a right wing party to gain this kind of popularity so quickly. (also people who in the past who have shouted racist at the first opportunity when immigration was raised)
As immigrations effects on the lower wage is my personal concern, then UKIP is mine and other old style Labour voters obvious short term answer.
Providing UKIP didn't win an outright election. Then I really would be in the shit. As I will if the Tories get in.

After an uncharacteristically promising start, you appear to have painted yourself back into your corner.

To pick up on PV's post, I think David Laws is very able, and would go some way to rebuilding the Lib Dems' credibility as their new leader. And in answer to Janaage, I think Danny Alexander and Vince Cable could be trusted with the economy - they've had a very positive moderating influence on their respective departments over the past four years.

Won't happen though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, December 19, 2014, 10:29:46
After an uncharacteristically promising start, you appear to have painted yourself back into your corner.

To pick up on PV's post, I think David Laws is very able, and would go some way to rebuilding the Lib Dems' credibility as their new leader. And in answer to Janaage, I think Danny Alexander and Vince Cable could be trusted with the economy - they've had a very positive moderating influence on their respective departments over the past four years.

Won't happen though.

The usually admirable Cable was pretty much squarely responsible for selling off the Post Office well below value though. Badly advised he may have been, but that's a pretty obvious fuck up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Friday, December 19, 2014, 10:34:27
I'm afraid human nature will never change, so whether we are talking about governments or virtually any other organisation it is run, primarily, for those within it.

Life is full of fraudulent, corrupt 'leaders and followers' and getting rid of one only to be replaced by another corrupt, fraudulent organisation is hardly democracy in my view.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 19, 2014, 11:21:16
I'd agree with most of this. Sounds like we should move to Sweden.

Badly timed comment.  Sweden has plenty of problems of its own.  It's currently in political limbo because the new government couldn't get its budget (which would authorise tax increases) approved by parliament.  So another election has been called...just months after the last one.  The liberal Swedish tax & spend consensus of the 1990s is starting to look very strained.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, December 19, 2014, 11:32:33
The usually admirable Cable was pretty much squarely responsible for selling off the Post Office well below value though. Badly advised he may have been, but that's a pretty obvious fuck up.

I think that was heavily overplayed by the media actually. The report said that it estimated between another £120-180m (and not only the £180m figure the media quoted) could have been made by raising the initial offer price by up to 30p. Share value has stabilised at under 2/3rds of its peak after issue, which has undermined a lot of earlier criticism.

In overall terms, this is actually a pretty minor adjustment with the benefit of hindsight on what was a complex projection. For instance, a bigger loss would have been made if the government had chosen to retain 25% rather than 30% of the shares. The more interesting conclusion was that there should be a change to the rules to allow a revaluing of the share price later in the offer process.

This report on the BBC site is a lot more balanced than their (and others) media coverage was yesterday. On this more detailed reading, Cable comes out of this much better:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30527392 (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30527392)

Quote
Lord Myners was keen to stress that pricing a share sale is a difficult process. Speaking on BBC Breakfast, he said it was a "complicated transaction" and that "if any money had been left on the table it was pretty small".

Quote
"For the avoidance of doubt, we do not believe that a price anywhere near the levels seen in the aftermarket could have been achieved at listing."

Quote
In his report, Lord Myners said the privatisation, which raised a total of £2bn, was handled "with considerable professionalism"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Friday, December 19, 2014, 14:07:41
The usually admirable Cable was pretty much squarely responsible for selling off the Post Office well below value though. Badly advised he may have been, but that's a pretty obvious fuck up.

He didn't sell the post office
He sold Royal Mail

2 separate entities, Post Office is still wholly owned by the government and split from RM around 5 years ago.
Though some areas are still linked re pensions

Carry on  ;D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: wiggy on Friday, December 19, 2014, 16:54:16
A love a bit of political debate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcaUer4fuU8


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ticker45 on Friday, December 19, 2014, 17:11:49
I'm afraid human nature will never change, so whether we are talking about governments or virtually any other organisation it is run, primarily, for those within it.

Life is full of fraudulent, corrupt 'leaders and followers' and getting rid of one only to be replaced by another corrupt, fraudulent organisation is hardly democracy in my view.

This, and it could be the Monster Raving Looney party supposedly running the country but the real power as always lies with the long serving Civil Servants in Whitehall and always has. As a friend of mine likes to say, the old Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister shows on BBC were not comedies, but forerunners of reality TV.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 02:20:46
Civil servants don't write policy though do they. It's multiple-national companies that run the world now not politicians IMHO


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 13:06:53
In my opinion the biggest single issue is the health service,unfortunately for the majority of people it's immigration which to me is pretty much bottom of the list.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 13:28:26
At a time when public services, public utilities and public infrastructure (transport, in particular) are as stretched as they are, surely having a population policy is absolutely vital?  And by extension, having a workable net migration policy is, therefore, also vital?  For far too long, the political class in this country has sought to close down discussion/debate with accusations of racism towards those who raise the subject.

A few of the political parties are only just starting to wake up to this.  But instead of setting the agenda/debate, they have been dragged kicking & screaming to it by an electorate that's way ahead of them.

Population is the elephant in the room.  If population is going to increase to 70 million in the next decade or two, then let's be honest about where all the new schools, houses, railway lines, motorways and supermarkets are going to be built.  Or do we just look the other way and leave the next generation to work it out for themselves?  It's disingenuous and dishonest.

Of course immigration will continue, and so it should.  Isolating ourselves from the outside world would be pointless and futile.  I just think it's becoming increasingly obvious that net migration needs to be controlled and not left to chance and market forces.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 13:31:57
In my opinion the biggest single issue is the health service,unfortunately for the majority of people it's immigration which to me is pretty much bottom of the list.


The health service is a real problem and was not surprise to hear it had it's worst week this year in A&E.  I got woken a few weeks ago with a sharp pain in my chest, it went off and I went back to sleep.  In the morning I got one or two stabbing pains and rang my surgery - had to explain to the receptionist what my problem was and she told me there were no doc's appointments for three weeks!  Said she would get somebody to ring me but the nurses were busy, finally got a call at 12-15 from a nurse who told me I should have seen a doctor!!  When I asked if I could come round now she said they were shutting shortly as it was their half-day (a tuesday!).  Then I got told the classic, if I was really worried I should take myself to A&E or the walk-in centre.  Thankfully i had no re-occurrence so I did not go to A&E, but if surgeries up and down the country are under so much pressure it is no wonder the hospitals are full to bursting!  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 13:38:47
[quote author=Ardiles link=topic=55431.msg1302229#msg1302229 date=1419082106
Population is the elephant in the room.  If population is going to increase to 70 million in the next decade or two, then let's be honest about where all the new schools, houses, railway lines, motorways and supermarkets are going to be built.  Or do we just look the other way and leave the next generation to work it out for themselves?  It's disingenuous and dishonest.
[/quote]unfortunately this is just what is happening and Swindon Borough Council is absolutely to the fore in that regard!!!  Councillor Dale "Grinner" Heenan has just announced that they will not proceed with the new road linking West Swindon with the rest of the town, instead they want to upgrade certain other roads that they say will solve the problem and mentioned Akers Way.  A residential street basically, that they allowed hundreds of new homes to be built on without the correct infrastructure, and now they plan to expand in the east on the A420, please explain where the traffic is going to go from that development?  Closer to my home is the plan to put 150 new houses on the playing fields at Headlands, with no plans to upgrade the roundabout onto Cricklade Road, already a dangerous junction if you are turning right as visibility is not good. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 13:44:13
not sa
At a time when public services, public utilities and public infrastructure (transport, in particular) are as stretched as they are, surely having a population policy is absolutely vital?  And by extension, having a workable net migration policy is, therefore, also vital?  For far too long, the political class in this country has sought to close down discussion/debate with accusations of racism towards those who raise the subject.

A few of the political parties are only just starting to wake up to this.  But instead of setting the agenda/debate, they have been dragged kicking & screaming to it by an electorate that's way ahead of them.

Population is the elephant in the room.  If population is going to increase to 70 million in the next decade or two, then let's be honest about where all the new schools, houses, railway lines, motorways and supermarkets are going to be built.  Or do we just look the other way and leave the next generation to work it out for themselves?  It's disingenuous and dishonest.

Of course immigration will continue, and so it should.  Isolating ourselves from the outside world would be pointless and futile.  I just think it's becoming increasingly obvious that net migration needs to be controlled and not left to chance and market forces.

not saying that,just that its importance is over stated in the grand scheme of things.Contrary to popular opinion,I dont think its out of control.Most people say we are a "soft touch".Why,then, are people dying while clinging on to the bottom of lorries?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 13:52:43
I am starting to doubt whether the 'free at the point of service' model for the NHS can have a lot longer to go.  Even most other socially progressive western European countries have adopted a health insurance model (where you pay up front and claim most or all of the cost of treatment/consultancy from an insurer).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 14:14:41
It may not Ardiles,but every government should strive to make it so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 14:16:13
It may not Ardiles,but every government should strive to make it so.
I agree totally.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: STFC_Chris on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 20:58:39
The amount of wastage in the NHS is incredible. I work in pharmacy, and everyday patients bring back carrier bags or bin bags FULL of medicines. Often completely unopened, unused, within the expiry. That stock all goes to be incinerated. Two Seretide inhalers? £120. People just don't realise the cost of the drugs they're using.

Then there's the people who get doctors appointments for colds, headaches, and other minor ailments to get a prescription for Paracetamol, because they're 'entitled' to it. Yes, maybe, but the appointment you've just had has cost the NHS vastly more than the 40p you could have bought a box for.

Unpopular as it would be, I believe there should either be a small charge to visit the doctor or prescription charges should be applicable to everybody. £5 to visit your doctor, still great value, but makes you think twice if you've only got a sniffle. £2 per prescription for your first 20 items a year, then free after that?

You only have to have a quick look at ebay for things like Nicorette products being sold on. How many of those were on prescription, which the patient probably paid nothing for, then decided they'd rather carry on smoking?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 21:32:15
I was born in a shitty estate (Blackbird Leys), and spent my first 7 years there.
I still have relatives there.

The older ones won't even go out during the dark, and so are virtual prisoners in their houses for most of the winter.

Virtually all of the working class residents want the police to sort the place out, and get rid of the scum bags, but all the Labour councilors do is stick up for the rights of the crack heads and thieves.

The labour party has totally lost touch with what it is like to live in these places, because it has become the party of the fucking champagne socialists, who refer to their old core support as "Chavs"

They haven't represented the white working class for about twenty years.

I won't be voting UKIP, because I don't need to, but I can fully understand why the abandoned working class will vote for them in huge numbers



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 21:58:37
At a time when public services, public utilities and public infrastructure (transport, in particular) are as stretched as they are, surely having a population policy is absolutely vital?  And by extension, having a workable net migration policy is, therefore, also vital?  For far too long, the political class in this country has sought to close down discussion/debate with accusations of racism towards those who raise the subject.

UKIP appear to have changed tack, now claiming public services and infrastructure are over run due to migrant workers and for that reason we need to leave the EU so we can limit migration. I'm guessing they've given up on claiming they're taking all the jobs, with unemployment falling sharply now it's not a valid argument.

It's simple to blame the problems on migrants but you need to look deeper to see what the real problem is, or you risk taking a sledge hammer to crack a nut. For me the problem is primarily the inefficient spending of public money and to a lesser degree there not being enough money due to everyone wanting lower taxes and the rich/large companies not paying their share.

Far too many people seem to fall for the tabloid grabbing headlines that are spouted by UKIP and the SNP, ending up voting for what isn't much more than a pack of lies. Didn't the SNP base their future independent Scotland spending on oil being $100 a barrel? Imagine if they were now independent and in a currency union with the remainder of the UK, we'd all now be royally fucked as we'd have to bail them out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 22:03:43
Unpopular as it would be, I believe there should either be a small charge to visit the doctor or prescription charges should be applicable to everybody. £5 to visit your doctor, still great value, but makes you think twice if you've only got a sniffle. £2 per prescription for your first 20 items a year, then free after that?

What if you haven't got £5?

There are far better and simpler solutions to the issues with the NHS.

It was only recently I found out you can make appointments with nurses for minor complaints and that a doctors appointment isn't necessary. If more and better use was made of nurses it would reduce the strain on the doctors and provide a better service.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 22:04:52
You are on your own. Have been for a while.
The politicians are only in it for themselves and do not represent those who elect them.

Put a box at the bottom of the ballot paper with " none of them and detest  them all" and you would get a landslide victory and the biggest turn out in recent times.

Fucking hate all of them. Sad but true.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 22:08:12


Far too many people seem to fall for the tabloid grabbing headlines that are spouted by UKIP and the SNP, ending up voting for what isn't much more than a pack of lies. Didn't the SNP base their future independent Scotland spending on oil being $100 a barrel? Imagine if they were now independent and in a currency union with the remainder of the UK, we'd all now be royally fucked as we'd have to bail them out.

I was working up in Edinburgh this week, and I was chatting to one of my mates up there (he was a massive supporter of a Yes vote, as was I, from a "England's better off with out them" POV).
I was amazed that nobody in the media up there had challenged the SNP on how they would have funded their socialist utopia on oil at $60 a barrel when it costs $90+ to get it out of the ground.

I so wish they had had the bottle to vote with their hearts and not their heads


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 22:43:16
You are on your own. Have been for a while.
The politicians are only in it for themselves and do not represent those who elect them.

Put a box at the bottom of the ballot paper with " none of them and detest  them all" and you would get a landslide victory and the biggest turn out in recent times.

Fucking hate all of them. Sad but true.

There are some genuine, Labour back benchers who care. They keep my hopes alive that their party will come good again after the new Labour bullshit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 23:45:18
Are you serious ?
Get the Country back in debt with their wasteful spending plans.
Please no..... Every time that shower get in they leave the Country in a bigger mess than when they takeover.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 00:19:43
I am starting to doubt whether the 'free at the point of service' model for the NHS can have a lot longer to go.  Even most other socially progressive western European countries have adopted a health insurance model (where you pay up front and claim most or all of the cost of treatment/consultancy from an insurer).

Keep saying it, and say it louder. It's become such an article of faith in Britain, soaking up a huge and largely unquestioned budget that could be used so much more productively. The NHS really isn't as good as people like to pretend, and the waste it generates is truly shocking.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 08:35:29
I am starting to doubt whether the 'free at the point of service' model for the NHS can have a lot longer to go.  Even most other socially progressive western European countries have adopted a health insurance model (where you pay up front and claim most or all of the cost of treatment/consultancy from an insurer).
My old man until the last couple of weeks had lived in France for 10+years. Last couple of years had some quite unpleasant back problems requiring multiple operations.

His friend who stayed over here at had similar problem at similar time. Long and short of it, in France referred to consultant, diagnosed  (including scans MRI) operated within 3 weeks, had to have further operation took another three weeks to sort - friend over here still not sorted after 18 months +.

I know they pay and claim back via insurance over there but still seems to be an altogether better system.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 08:38:37
What if you haven't got £5?

I think the number of people who genuinely would not be able to find £5 for a doctor's appointment is sufficiently small that you would be able to introduce a safety net that would ensure everyone who needed to would get seen.

STFC_Chris puts it better than I could, so no need to repeat the point.  The flaw with the 'free at the point of service' model is that there is absolutely no disincentive to use the service when you don't need to.  While it may be free in cash terms under the current system to visit A&E (for example), having a 4 or 5 hour wait there as standard is the price we pay.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 08:54:59

I know they pay and claim back via insurance over there but still seems to be an altogether better system.


So it's more like private healthcare then? Is the cost the same as something like BUPA? The good thing about the NHS is that you don't need to pay, I'd rather it wasn't there but private healthcare is available too, and you get treated quicker.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 08:57:37
I am not insurable privately, so I'm fucked then! Lucky I've still got the NHS.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 08:58:21

It was only recently I found out you can make appointments with nurses for minor complaints and that a doctors appointment isn't necessary.

Our doctors pretty much almost push you through the nurse first, or a telephone appointment with the doctor, before you actually get to an appointment with one.

You can of course refuse the nurse appointment.

Must be practice specifics how hard they push that kind of thing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 09:02:05
I am not insurable privately, so I'm fucked then! Lucky I've still got the NHS.

There would be a way.  You only have to take a look at the French system and others like it to see how.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 09:02:53
I'd worry about the scandalous level of charges that would get levied. Hospitals being run for profit just doesn't quite sit right with me.

Having to argue with insurance companies over what is and what isn't covered. Being left with bills for tens of thousands of pounds because you didn't use your insurance company's preferred choice.

You'd isolate the poorest in society even more because they wouldn't be able to afford the insurance. Just look at the US where they've had to bring in "Obama care".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 09:07:11
There would be a way.  You only have to take a look at the French system and others like it to see how.

Isn't the French system just a slightly different take on the NHS and National Insurance? It's still mostly state sponsored.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 09:09:18
I think so, yes.  It's not a free market free for all.  But it's not free at the point of service either.  Seems to be a lot more efficient than our set up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 09:58:57
The NHS is one of the best things about the UK. The fact that it's survived for over a half century is testament to how valued it is. The waste of money is from the unwieldy administration apparatus that seems to be constantly added to.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: wiggy on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 10:41:43
The NHS is one of the best things about the UK. The fact that it's survived for over a half century is testament to how valued it is. The waste of money is from the unwieldy administration apparatus that seems to be constantly added to.



This is more true than you would believe.

While I was temping over the summer I accepted a 12 week contract with Wiltshire NHS to help set up the administration for the new Clinical Commissioning Group.

The amount of money wasted on furniture/printing/secretarial staff was mind blowing. I was asked not to come back after 2 weeks because I kept arguing about the inefficiencies. I did more colour printing in 2 weeks with the NHS than I did in 16 years with the Council. The clinical leads are all jealous of their little bit of the empire, and none would take a wider strategic view.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 13:15:29
Are you serious ?
Get the Country back in debt with their wasteful spending plans.
Please no..... Every time that shower get in they leave the Country in a bigger mess than when they takeover.
putting right services and making improvements costs money.
It's a vicious circle at the moment as the Tories close things down and sell things off to balance the books, then Labour spend years repairing the damage. They then get ousted and the Tories sell off and cut back again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 13:26:25
The problem is, we don't have the money to make improvements and putting right services.

I've never voted Tory, can't stand the snivelling public schoolboy pricks, but I think their approach to the economy via cuts is unfair, horrible but unavoidably necessary.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 13:30:42
putting right services and making improvements costs money.
It's a vicious circle at the moment as the Tories close things down and sell things off to balance the books, then Labour spend years repairing the damage. They then get ousted and the Tories sell off and cut back again.

Spot on.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 14:03:01
putting right services and making improvements costs money.
It's a vicious circle at the moment as the Tories close things down and sell things off to balance the books, then Labour spend years repairing the damage. They then get ousted and the Tories sell off and cut back again.

Alernatively for balance is it....

Labour create thousands of public sector jobs to get unemployment down and leave an economic mess and Tories spend years removing said jobs balancing the books again and then the cycle begins again!

FWIW it's somewhere in the middle I suggest - each party has its dogmatic position and due to this i don't trust any of the buggers!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 14:19:44
our political parties, not that different - the problem with cutting services is that maintenance is not done and then it's really expensive to repair/replace - very evident with roads.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Iffy's Onion Bhaji on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 16:36:13
Are you serious ?
Get the Country back in debt with their wasteful spending plans.
Please no..... Every time that shower get in they leave the Country in a bigger mess than when they takeover.

Yep. I for one never have and never will vote Labour. Clueless mongs. The rest aren't much better though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 16:48:57
putting right services and making improvements costs money.
It's a vicious circle at the moment as the Tories close things down and sell things off to balance the books, then Labour spend years repairing the damage. They then get ousted and the Tories sell off and cut back again.

That did make me smile.  The idea that Labour is out there repairing damage is extraordinary, surely?  They took a wrecking ball to the economy.  Heart is in more or less the right place, maybe, but they were and - so far as I can tell - still are economically incompetent.

The damage they inflicted economically is going to take years to put right.  I'm no fan of Tory austerity, but neither can I see much of an alternative, sadly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 17:10:24
I was born in a shitty estate (Blackbird Leys), and spent my first 7 years there.
I still have relatives there.

The older ones won't even go out during the dark, and so are virtual prisoners in their houses for most of the winter.

Virtually all of the working class residents want the police to sort the place out, and get rid of the scum bags, but all the Labour councilors do is stick up for the rights of the crack heads and thieves.

The labour party has totally lost touch with what it is like to live in these places, because it has become the party of the fucking champagne socialists, who refer to their old core support as "Chavs"

They haven't represented the white working class for about twenty years.

I won't be voting UKIP, because I don't need to, but I can fully understand why the abandoned working class will vote for them in huge numbers



Just for a little balance, here's the Blackbird Leys council election result from a few weeks ago:

The Conservative Party   27   
Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition   13   
Liberal Democrat   11   
Green Party   21   
UK Independence Party   91   
Labour Party   509

Make your own minds up as to who's totally lost touch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DarloSTFC84 on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 17:11:35
 :suicide:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 17:18:01
Just for a little balance, here's the Blackbird Leys council election result from a few weeks ago:

The Conservative Party   27   
Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition   13   
Liberal Democrat   11   
Green Party   21   
UK Independence Party   91   
Labour Party   509

Make your own minds up as to who's totally lost touch.

On a turnout of 15.7%...

http://www.oxford.gov.uk/PageRender/decCD/Election_results_occw.htm


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 17:35:38
So yes, the French system (like other European healthcare systems) delivers fantastic service, but it's at the price of a huge public deficit + huge private contributions. For all that, I still think the system answers requirements better than than the NHS, that people without a point of comparison have been brainwashed into thinking is the mother of all healthcare systems.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 17:45:02
That did make me smile.  The idea that Labour is out there repairing damage is extraordinary, surely?  They took a wrecking ball to the economy.  Heart is in more or less the right place, maybe, but they were and - so far as I can tell - still are economically incompetent.

The damage they inflicted economically is going to take years to put right.  I'm no fan of Tory austerity, but neither can I see much of an alternative, sadly.

Out of interest, did you feel the same during what i think was the longest period of sustained economic growth that this country has ever had - from the later Major years, all the way through Blair and into Brown?

And if so, who do you hold responsible for the crippling early 90s recession and Cameron's unique double dip?  Labour's wrecking ball again?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 17:52:26
Out of interest, did you feel the same during what i think was the longest period of sustained economic growth that this country has ever had - from the later Major years, all the way through Blair and into Brown?

At the time, no.  I enjoyed the 'benefit' like everyone else.  But we all found out, to our cost, in the years that followed that the 'sustained economic growth' was completely unsustainable.  A giant bubble, fuelled by debt and household spending.  It was not my job to spot this.  It was the government's.  They failed.

And if so, who do you hold responsible for the crippling early 90s recession...

The Tories.

...and Cameron's unique double dip?

Labour.

Labour's wrecking ball again?

Pls see above.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 18:20:01
That did make me smile.  The idea that Labour is out there repairing damage is extraordinary, surely?  They took a wrecking ball to the economy.  Heart is in more or less the right place, maybe, but they were and - so far as I can tell - still are economically incompetent.

The damage they inflicted economically is going to take years to put right.  I'm no fan of Tory austerity, but neither can I see much of an alternative, sadly.
No. They did a pretty good job of repairing the services that the Tories ruined. The Tories are doing the same thing again now with their attacks on almost everything.
The financial world recession would have happened regardless of who was in government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 18:23:46
The damage they inflicted economically is going to take years to put right.  I'm no fan of Tory austerity, but neither can I see much of an alternative, sadly.

Yep, had to be done unfortunately and will continue to have to be.

Was never going to be popular and the Tories have unfairly penalised certain sectors of society more so than others. They inherited one big mess though and it was never going to be pretty to sort out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 18:24:20
The financial world recession would have happened regardless of who was in government.

It would.

But the implications of a Labour government trying to spend their way out of it would've been catastrophic.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 18:27:30
At the time, no.  I enjoyed the 'benefit' like everyone else.  But we all found out, to our cost, in the years that followed that the 'sustained economic growth' was completely unsustainable.  A giant bubble, fuelled by debt and household spending.  It was not my job to spot this.  It was the government's.  They failed.


The response to the financial crisis from Labour  (and I suspect the Tories would have been exactly the same so I am not singling Labour ) out just summed up how clueless and more depressing patronising politicians have become

C.12 years of growth were apparently singularly down to Labours frugal policies  (I will gloss over the sale of the gold), but the minute the wheels fall off and the shit hits the fan  it becomes an international problem they have no control over!

We are not stupid, the fact that you treat us thus just shows the disdain politicians have for the public!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 18:28:09
Hasn't the nations debts risen under the current condem coalition?


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 18:28:48
No. They did a pretty good job of repairing the services that the Tories ruined. The Tories are doing the same thing again now with their attacks on almost everything.
The financial world recession would have happened regardless of who was in government.

As did the financial boom that preceded it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 18:55:45
Hasn't the nations debts risen under the current condem coalition?


Public sector debt will always rise. Economies function on debt.

It's the debt to GDP ratio and, more to a point, the structural deficit that is the concern. Yes, debt:GDP has risen since the austerity measures started because the country is still being run at a deficit. Labour are somewhat to blame for the spending they introduced during their government. All of the cost-cutting measures we've seen so far are designed to reduce the deficit so that by 2018 the country will be in surplus and debt:GDP will start to fall. So there is far more austerity to come in the next few years. We didn't cut costs fast and hard enough, unlike the US who did and are now 2+ years ahead of us in terms of recovery.

Labour might've "did a pretty good job of repairing the services that the Tories ruined" but at a significant opportunity cost.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 19:55:13
Why did the recovery have to be done with such haste and at such a cost to services etc?
Why couldn't things be done more gradually so the impact is less severe?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 20:05:05
With respect Red Frog,your take on things is exactly what this Tory government wants,then they abolish it,seemingly with public approval.When its gone we will all be sorry.You say its not all its cracked up to be,but that's not the fault of the NHS.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 20:23:39
Why did the recovery have to be done with such haste and at such a cost to services etc?
Why couldn't things be done more gradually so the impact is less severe?

The way I liken it to, no doubt wrongly, is trying to pay your credit card off with the minimum amount each moth while still spending on it.


Title: Re:
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 20:24:30
This thread is like watching a bunch of spastics who have been thrown into a swimming pool.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 20:24:55
With respect Red Frog,your take on things is exactly what this Tory government wants,then they abolish it,seemingly with public approval.When its gone we will all be sorry.You say its not all its cracked up to be,but that's not the fault of the NHS.
With respect... and I don't have the answers but...

a) the privitisation of the NHS actually started under the labour when they started limited outsourcing.

b) many of the problems with the NHS now relate to them being tied up with with PFI  contracts which left huge debts.

I don't disagree that the Tories have an idealogical issue at play here, but fuck me labour have made it bloody easy for them!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 20:33:12
This thread is like watching a bunch of spastics who have been thrown into a swimming pool.

Delightful. Feel free to go and lick a mains socket you fuckwit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 20:37:12
With respect... and I don't have the answers but...

a) the privitisation of the NHS actually started under the labour when they started limited outsourcing.

b) many of the problems with the NHS now relate to them being tied up with with PFI  contracts which left huge debts.

I don't disagree that the Tories have an idealogical issue at play here, but fuck me labour have made it bloody easy for them!

Oh god yes, I've seen a few ridiculous PFI contracts recently and it's crazy how politicians (all sides) will make patently stupid financial decisions just because they have a policy edict to somehow make look successful to the public.


Title: Re:
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 20:58:01
This thread is like watching a bunch of spastics who have been thrown into a swimming pool.
A bit like pm's questions then?
Why not contribute to it and correct us spastics oh wise one?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 21:59:07
This thread is like watching a bunch of spastics who have been thrown into a swimming pool.

Did you forget your armbands again?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 22:06:28
With respect Red Frog,your take on things is exactly what this Tory government wants,then they abolish it,seemingly with public approval.When its gone we will all be sorry.You say its not all its cracked up to be,but that's not the fault of the NHS.

Yes, I understand that's the risk anyone takes in criticising the NHS, so that even the Tories ring-fence spending on it. The system's full of waste, but protecting people's right to abuse it seems to be untouchable. It would take a huge mindshift to move to a system supported by private insurance (related to ability to pay), but the public funds that would be freed up from fundamental NHS reform would transform the economy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 23:59:40
I'll take a wild stab in the dark, that Christy and Arriba work in the public sector


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Monday, December 22, 2014, 00:44:27
Why did the recovery have to be done with such haste and at such a cost to services etc?
Why couldn't things be done more gradually so the impact is less severe?

They have been taking it easy with the cuts, worst of it is still to come.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Monday, December 22, 2014, 12:15:32
I'll take a wild stab in the dark, that Christy and Arriba work in the public sector

I'll guess that arriba drives trucks  ;) and his hobby is fence erecting and shopping.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, December 22, 2014, 14:27:30
I'll guess that arriba drives trucks  ;) and his hobby is fence erecting and shopping.
yeah pretty much apart from the shopping bit. Certainly not a hobby of mine.
I don't work in the public sector. Know plenty of people who do though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Monday, December 22, 2014, 21:01:48
I'll take a wild stab in the dark, that Christy and Arriba work in the public sector

Given that I either do or don't, it's not exactly a wild stab in the dark.  Suggesting I was a geography teacher from Melksham might be more like it.

But anyway, you're wrong on me too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pumbaa on Monday, December 22, 2014, 21:50:10
This thread is like watching a bunch of spastics who have been thrown into a swimming pool.

Speechless. Just speechless.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Monday, December 22, 2014, 21:56:32
Theresa mays plan to force all foreign graduates to leave the country is the most ass backwards, short sighted, completely fucking retarded idea I've heard in a lon long time


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 22, 2014, 22:32:02
It Theresa May though, so not a total shock.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, December 22, 2014, 22:43:59
Theresa mays plan to force all foreign graduates to leave the country is the most ass backwards, short sighted, completely fucking retarded idea I've heard in a lon long time

Absolutely spot on, total madness. May seems to be angling for the top job in a big way by trying to be hardline on everything but it's odd to see a Tory minister picking a fight with the CBI.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, December 22, 2014, 23:03:55
As a Surrey resident who doesn't usually bother with a midweek match because of jams on the M4, I was curious to learn from UKIP that this was the fault of the EU or migrants - presumably heading to the Cotswold homes of the political classes who appreciate their low cost work ethic compared to the locals..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, December 23, 2014, 12:10:18
Theresa mays plan to force all foreign graduates to leave the country is the most ass backwards, short sighted, completely fucking retarded idea I've heard in a lon long time

The answer's pretty simple. Immigration is a significant electoral issue (and has been for a long time) and both Labour and the Tories are facing significant pressures from their constituents. The problem is neither Labour nor the Tories want to take the very difficult decisions which might actually genuinely control immigration numbers, so they both go for "easy options" - to meet targets if nothing else.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, December 23, 2014, 12:48:55
Yeah, I know that. It's still fucking stupid


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, December 23, 2014, 13:15:16
It's not all foreign students just non-EU but still......


Title: Re: 'STFC to face court over unpaid rent' - Adver
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 23, 2014, 15:57:31
They do. The basic principle of freehold ownership is that you own "everything from the heavens to the centre of the earth", which includes any minerals under the land and mining rights etc (vaguely recall there being a Latin maxim but fucked if I can remember it). There may be statutes that give others or the crown certain *rights* over parts of the land for specific purposes, but that doesn't change the fact of *ownership*.

No idea what the position would be regards the CG though. Suspect its more complicated than that.

This may be the historical position, but now changed by the Tories, so that fracking can happen beneath your house without your say so....here's the Green MP Caroline Lucas  take on matters....not that the BBC would allow her access to share a platform with someone like Farage, after all she's an MP and he isn't.

Quote
Green Party MP Caroline Lucas told the Guardian it’s a “sham consultation,” which exposes “the government’s disregard for the growing public concern about the major environmental and health risks of fracking. The decision to deny people the right to say no to fracking under their own homes is outrageous. It shows that ministers are putting the greed of oil and gas companies above the public interest in tackling climate change.”

Jane Thomas, senior campaigner of Friends of the Earth, said in a press release: “This Government seems hell-bent on fracking irrespective of widespread opposition. You’d think with a general election approaching politicians would listen to public opinion and get behind the popular energy solutions of cutting waste and backing renewables.”

“Fracking for more fossil fuels will cause more pollution and bring about more catastrophic climate change - the Government should stop making things easier for the frackers and allow people a say in what happens beneath their property.



Title: Re: 'STFC to face court over unpaid rent' - Adver
Post by: manc_red on Tuesday, December 23, 2014, 16:44:08
This may be the historical position, but now changed by the Tories, so that fracking can happen beneath your house without your say so....here's the Green MP Caroline Lucas  take on matters....not that the BBC would allow her access to share a platform with someone like Farage, after all she's an MP and he isn't.



Not really changed as such. Oil and gas has been an exception to a landowners mineral rights since the Petroleum (Production) Act 1934. The only (well, I say "only"..) thing that the tories want to change - and it isn't law yet by the looks of it, although they appear hell bent on pushing it through - is allowing a more or less unfettered right of access through the landowners land to extract the gas.

The land under the property remains *owned* by the landowner. Not that that'll be much comfort to any poor bastards who end up having tons of shite dumped under their property mind :)



Title: Re: 'STFC to face court over unpaid rent' - Adver
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 23, 2014, 17:33:53
Not really changed as such. Oil and gas has been an exception to a landowners mineral rights since the Petroleum (Production) Act 1934. The only (well, I say "only"..) thing that the tories want to change - and it isn't law yet by the looks of it, although they appear hell bent on pushing it through - is allowing a more or less unfettered right of access through the landowners land to extract the gas.

The land under the property remains *owned* by the landowner. Not that that'll be much comfort to any poor bastards who end up having tons of shite dumped under their property mind :)



I believe the semantic sleight of hand is that drilling under someone's land, would once have been considered trespass, but not now.

I've always had a suspicion that there must be some oil or shale gas, lurking under particularly Old Town....due to the fact the geology is remarkably similar to bits of Dorset, where you get oil fields like Wytch Farm.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/entertainment/days_out/walk_through_time/02.shtml


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Tuesday, December 23, 2014, 18:54:01
Apart from the usual green hysteria, can anyone tell me what is actually wrong with fracking ?

I'm not in any way saying that it isn't wrong, just that I've never heard a rational argument either way.

I tend to be swayed in favour, simply because the usual crowd of hippies and rent-a-mob types are against it

Happy to be persuaded either way.

(and Reg, the fact that the Tories like it, and the Americans do it, isn't necessarily a good enough reason to not like it)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: manc_red on Tuesday, December 23, 2014, 19:15:31
Well it involves setting off massive explosions miles underground, I.e near the water table etc, close to cities and built up areas.

I'd have thought the more pertinent question might be "what evidence is there that its definitely safe?"

The fact that the Germans and French wont touch it is a bit worrying.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Wednesday, December 24, 2014, 06:03:06
Apart from the usual green hysteria, can anyone tell me what is actually wrong with fracking ?

I'm not in any way saying that it isn't wrong, just that I've never heard a rational argument either way.

I tend to be swayed in favour, simply because the usual crowd of hippies and rent-a-mob types are against it

Happy to be persuaded either way.

(and Reg, the fact that the Tories like it, and the Americans do it, isn't necessarily a good enough reason to not like it)

You don't mind flames coming out of your taps then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Wednesday, December 24, 2014, 13:37:32
This was a pretty balanced Documentary by Iain Stewart on it a while back. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1z39ui_e14-fracking-the-new-energy-rush_tv


Title: Re:
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 28, 2014, 13:14:13
Nigel Ferage, The Times Briton of the year


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Sunday, December 28, 2014, 14:02:26
Odd from a paper that's desperately trying to bring him down


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: manc_red on Sunday, December 28, 2014, 22:20:09
Drug policy should be far more of a political issue than it is. The fact that we have a government who ignore - and even it appears deliberately suppress - scientific advice and evidence in favour of kow-towing to the Daily Mail, is an absolute disgrace.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/exminister-norman-baker-leaks-details-on-home-secretarys-drug-stance-9945643.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Monday, December 29, 2014, 07:46:07
Drug policy should be far more of a political issue than it is. The fact that we have a government who ignore - and even it appears deliberately suppress - scientific advice and evidence in favour of kow-towing to the Daily Mail, is an absolute disgrace.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/exminister-norman-baker-leaks-details-on-home-secretarys-drug-stance-9945643.html


Surely they are widely available in Manchester aren't they ?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Monday, December 29, 2014, 09:22:48
Anyone who thought Scottish independence was a good idea still think so with the price of crude oil disappearing down the plug hole? Mr. salmond is strangely quiet for a gobby revolutionist.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, December 29, 2014, 10:29:00
Interesting to see that the Pope, is issuing an encyclical on the subject of economic systems and climate change....good stuff from the Pontiff...

Quote
“An economic system centred on the god of money needs to plunder nature to sustain the frenetic rhythm of consumption that is inherent to it.

“The system continues unchanged, since what dominates are the dynamics of an economy and a finance that are lacking in ethics. It is no longer man who commands, but money. Cash commands.

“The monopolising of lands, deforestation, the appropriation of water, inadequate agro-toxics are some of the evils that tear man from the land of his birth. Climate change, the loss of biodiversity and deforestation are already showing their devastating effects in the great cataclysms we witness,” he said.

In Lima last month, bishops from every continent expressed their frustration with the stalled climate talks and, for the first time, urged rich countries to act.

Sorondo, a fellow Argentinian who is known to be close to Pope Francis, said: “Just as humanity confronted revolutionary change in the 19th century at the time of industrialisation, today we have changed the natural environment so much. If current trends continue, the century will witness unprecedented climate change and destruction of the ecosystem with tragic consequences.”

There are of course plenty of climate change deniers in Christian churches, particularly in the US....in the same way there are probably of climate change deniers on the TEF.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, December 29, 2014, 10:33:15
The Pope's been saying a lot of stuff lately that goes against what fundamentalists might think. It seems that he is recognising that religion needs to stay in touch with the modern world or risk fading away.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, January 25, 2015, 12:01:28
With the discussions about the TV debates with the party leaders, I want to know why we can't have local debates?

Hold it at the Wyvern (one night for each constituency), allocate tickets by ballot, have all the candidates present, then go for it Question Time style. Broadcast it on the internet for those that can't attend, have a Twitter discussion go on and all that stuff.

Would be a good way of getting people a bit more involved in political debate and to find out more about the candidates.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, January 25, 2015, 12:06:51
Local debates happen all the time, we had one in Bath the other day, but they tend not to be broadcast.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, January 25, 2015, 12:16:29
Do they? Have we had them in Swindon?

Never heard of any happening before.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, January 25, 2015, 12:19:58
Do they? Have we had them in Swindon?

Never heard of any happening before.

We had Question Time in Swindon less than a year ago....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zMYw9SasAg


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Sunday, January 25, 2015, 12:32:06
With the discussions about the TV debates with the party leaders, I want to know why we can't have local debates?

Hold it at the Wyvern (one night for each constituency), allocate tickets by ballot, have all the candidates present, then go for it Question Time style. Broadcast it on the internet for those that can't attend, have a Twitter discussion go on and all that stuff.

Would be a good way of getting people a bit more involved in political debate and to find out more about the candidates.



They already do, they're called hustings events...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 10:08:26
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1516726.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2015_02_07

LMFAO


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 11:18:42
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1516726.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2015_02_07

LMFAO
Another reason to hate the Tory cunt


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 11:33:15
Not a big fan of the Tory party, but Buckland has been a big help to my parents with a few issues regarding my brother's education so whatever else he may be, he's a good local MP. Which is another difficulty with our electoral system - in 2005 I wasn't eligible to vote but it would have been a very tough choice as Julia Drown was an excellent constituency MP but Labour was suffering from the Iraq hangover (as it was, Drown stood down, but you get the point)

On the other hand, I didn't hear too many positive things about Snelgrove, who I believe is re-standing for Labour in South Swindon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 11:46:44
Not a big fan of the Tory party, but Buckland has been a big help to my parents with a few issues regarding my brother's education so whatever else he may be, he's a good local MP. Which is another difficulty with our electoral system - in 2005 I wasn't eligible to vote but it would have been a very tough choice as Julia Drown was an excellent constituency MP but Labour was suffering from the Iraq hangover (as it was, Drown stood down, but you get the point)

On the other hand, I didn't hear too many positive things about Snelgrove, who I believe is re-standing for Labour in South Swindon.
He may have helped you on an individual basis and that's good to hear but that doesn't excuse him or his party.

Agree about Julia drown, she was excellent. Also agree about snelgrove but to be fair she knocked on my door recently and I grilled her. She was very reasonable She got too close to Gordon Brown but is still the best option I reckon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 12:12:33
I find Snelgrove intensely irritating, and she comes across as a suck up career politician. Which presumably isn't true given her age. But I have heard some good remarks regarding her local work.

But I think you've made a good point. How do you pick when your local MP is actually pretty good for your area, but when the party the represent are a bunch of (ed) ball bags


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 12:59:25
Your local MP is going to be whipped to vote along party lines in all of the important votes...so the party consideration comes first, in my book.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 13:28:03
Interesting that the Labour wipe out predicted in Scotland this May could lead, in all probability, to a Labour/SNP coalition at Westminster.

Guardian: Scotland Poll Shows a Nation on the Verge of Abandoning Labour (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/datablog/2015/feb/04/scotland-poll-shows-a-nation-on-the-verge-of-abandoning-labour)

I'm trying to work through the likely chain of events that would follow if Labour tried to form a government with the SNP.  One way or another, I think that there's a good chance that it could lead to independence for Scotland by the back door.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 13:34:17
Your local MP is going to be whipped to vote along party lines in all of the important votes...so the party consideration comes first, in my book.

Yes, I think so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 14:03:56
Did you see inside the commons? The Tories send e-mails to their mps telling them to ask camoron prepared questions at pmq's. Rather than using the time to do their job and represent their constituents. I wonder if our Tory boy wanker mps have followed these orders?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 14:07:35
Did you see inside the commons? The Tories send e-mails to their mps telling them to ask camoron prepared questions at pmq's. Rather than using the time to do their job and represent their constituents. I wonder if our Tory boy wanker mps have followed these orders?

That's long been the case, under Labour it became embarrassing it was so obvious. The problem largely arises from the fact the legislature is not properly separate from the government. MPs have a vested interest in being sycophantic so they can get a ministerial job etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 14:23:55
Did you see inside the commons? The Tories send e-mails to their mps telling them to ask camoron prepared questions at pmq's. Rather than using the time to do their job and represent their constituents. I wonder if our Tory boy wanker mps have followed these orders?

Quite interesting that program, although the nature of the internal politics of Westminster is a joke. It did show that there are some decent MPs out there as well (the 2 birds), irrispective of your party allegiance


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 15:18:16
That's long been the case, under Labour it became embarrassing it was so obvious. The problem largely arises from the fact the legislature is not properly separate from the government. MPs have a vested interest in being sycophantic so they can get a ministerial job etc.
Agree. That's what grated me with snelgrove. I think anyone asking preloaded questions should be ousted. The practice itself should be banned from the commons.
Quite interesting that program, although the nature of the internal politics of Westminster is a joke. It did show that there are some decent MPs out there as well (the 2 birds), irrispective of your party allegiance
agreed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 15:32:00
Of course, the saintly Mr Buckland, so beloved of some on here, would never do anything wrong to further his own interests...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2698664/New-law-chief-guilty-misconduct-race-hate-trial-didn-t-tell-PM-Professional-misconduct-illicitly-getting-case-notes-involving-school-governor.html


Title: Re:
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 16:32:19
What makes me laugh about this election is that there are actually people who will vote for the Labour party, the Liberal Democrats and the Conservative Party. That's the thing that's fucking insane!


Title: Re:
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 16:43:51
What makes me laugh about this election is that there are actually people who will vote for the Labour party, the Liberal Democrats and the Conservative Party. That's the thing that's fucking insane!

Yep....would be so much better if people never bothered, so leaving the way open for the BNP....I see why you equate this to insanity.


Title: Re: Re:
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 16:56:36
Yep....would be so much better if people never bothered, so leaving the way open for the BNP....I see why you equate this to insanity.
The definition of insanity, according to Einstein: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That sounds like a typical Labour voter to me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 17:16:33
I take it you'll be voting for the respect party, ironside?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 17:20:56
I take it you'll be voting for the respect party, ironside?
Yeah, 'coz that's fucking logical...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: stfc1975 on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 18:48:07
They're all a bunch of cunts.

The end.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 20:58:04
Not a big fan of the Tory party, but Buckland has been a big help to my parents with a few issues regarding my brother's education so whatever else he may be, he's a good local MP. Which is another difficulty with our electoral system - in 2005 I wasn't eligible to vote but it would have been a very tough choice as Julia Drown was an excellent constituency MP but Labour was suffering from the Iraq hangover (as it was, Drown stood down, but you get the point)

On the other hand, I didn't hear too many positive things about Snelgrove, who I believe is re-standing for Labour in South Swindon.

Snelgrove was absolutely worse than useless when she was our MP- stuck up for the locals but then voted with the Govt everytime.
She has no chance of being re-elected


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 21:00:49
Snelgrove was absolutely worse than useless when she was our MP- stuck up for the locals but then voted with the Govt everytime.
She has no chance of being re-elected

Except that Ashcroft has her neck and neck with Buckland (http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2015/01/south-swindon/)

If you're a bit of a political nerd like I am, Ashcroft's local polls are fascinating.

He also has Clegg just three points up in Sheffield Hallam. People talk about Portillo in 1997, but if Clegg loses his seat I will laugh myself into a hernia.

Edit: take that back, he's three points BEHIND. http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2015/02/sheffield-hallam-doncaster-north-thanet-south/#more-7536


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 22:21:01
Snelgrove is certainly putting the work in and knocking on doors. She's out and about and has been for months. I think she will win and I think Tomlinson will win the other seat, splitting the town.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 23:14:29
Snelgrove is certainly putting the work in and knocking on doors. She's out and about and has been for months. I think she will win and I think Tomlinson will win the other seat, splitting the town.


She has got no chance- is about as intelligent as a wet fart. To win in Swindon you have to win over floating voters and considering her record last time in post she has no chance.

The only thing she does do is get herself into the paper a lot by jumping on every bandwagon going. Clueless as is the whole of the Labour Party- they only evwe have one answer Tax, Borrow and Spend- they've learnt nothing from their past mistakes


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 23:18:53
Interesting that the Labour wipe out predicted in Scotland this May could lead, in all probability, to a Labour/SNP coalition at Westminster.

Guardian: Scotland Poll Shows a Nation on the Verge of Abandoning Labour (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/datablog/2015/feb/04/scotland-poll-shows-a-nation-on-the-verge-of-abandoning-labour)

I'm trying to work through the likely chain of events that would follow if Labour tried to form a government with the SNP.  One way or another, I think that there's a good chance that it could lead to independence for Scotland by the back door.

Lets fucking hope so


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 23:20:34
Did you see inside the commons? The Tories send e-mails to their mps telling them to ask camoron prepared questions at pmq's. Rather than using the time to do their job and represent their constituents. I wonder if our Tory boy wanker mps have followed these orders?

So until this enlightenment, did you think that the questions at PQT where off the cuff ?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, February 9, 2015, 09:33:56
So until this enlightenment, did you think that the questions at PQT where off the cuff ?

To a point. I certainly didn't think it was loaded to the level it is. I naively thought questions were genuine on the whole.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Monday, February 9, 2015, 17:18:26
To a point. I certainly didn't think it was loaded to the level it is. I naively thought questions were genuine on the whole.
really? You do surprise me....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Monday, February 9, 2015, 17:22:22
Almost 40 Labour MPs employ staff on zero-hours contracts despite Ed Miliband claiming they have 'no place' in Britain........oh my days!

Nasty Tories eh Reg? Wait a minute, they're not Tories, or are they?    :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Monday, February 9, 2015, 18:04:10
They are all cunts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, February 9, 2015, 19:47:26
Zero hour fucking contracts should be illegal. They are convenient for the unemployment stats though.

Flash is right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 15:42:49
Anyone tried this: https://www.politicalcompass.org/

My results attached


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 16:08:38
Anyone tried this: https://www.politicalcompass.org/

My results attached

No great surprise in my result, however I wonder how many Labour voters consider the party to be so right wing and authoritarian!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 16:51:23
Anyone tried this: https://www.politicalcompass.org/

My results attached

Well I'm just to your left. In reality I think I'm a bit closer to the centre than that. But it doesn't matter since I don't get a vote anywhere.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 16:53:49
(http://i.imgur.com/lAtEKce.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 16:55:22
Political compass is renowned for telling everyone that they're left wing libertarian and that all the established parties are basically Hitler.

This one seems to be a bit more accurate, based on UK political parties and generally doesn't tell people they're all utopian lefties https://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=q_uk1


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 17:05:47
I got bored and gave up half-way through, which sums up my political alignment perfectly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 17:14:05
Political compass is renowned for telling everyone that they're left wing libertarian and that all the established parties are basically Hitler.

This one seems to be a bit more accurate, based on UK political parties and generally doesn't tell people they're all utopian lefties https://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=q_uk1
My result showed Liberal Democrats, which is a shame.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 17:14:58
I got 5 squares from the left directly on the horizontal line on the first one.
Labour top on 85% on the second one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 17:18:18
You sunk my battleship.

Im slightly to the left of Gandhi.  That fascist twat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 17:42:11
The Greens are the party I have least in common with.

Thank fuck for that, I don't do tree hugging


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 18:05:42
Political compass is renowned for telling everyone that they're left wing libertarian and that all the established parties are basically Hitler.

This one seems to be a bit more accurate, based on UK political parties and generally doesn't tell people they're all utopian lefties https://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=q_uk1

90% labour
83% liberal
82% green


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 18:08:37
My result showed Liberal Democrats, which is a shame.

You'll have to shag Norman Scott now.

Could prove a bit messy


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 18:08:50
No huge surprise

(http://i.imgur.com/niizEdQ.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 18:17:02
Green on the first one, Labour 86% on the 2nd one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 18:27:30
OK, I thought I'd make an effort:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/jamiethon/chart_zpsvgve6o53.png) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jamiethon/media/chart_zpsvgve6o53.png.html)

I think the last 2 pages of question influenced the results rather a lot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 18:29:10
My result showed Liberal Democrats, which is a shame.

Me too. How disappointing. I vote Labour. Now I'm confused.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 18:58:29
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y524/Duncoman/political%20leaning_zps3g4vwfbq.png)

Bit more libertarian than I thought I'd be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 19:02:43
OK, I thought I'd make an effort:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/jamiethon/chart_zpsvgve6o53.png) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jamiethon/media/chart_zpsvgve6o53.png.html)

I think the last 2 pages of question influenced the results rather a lot.
That's pretty much where I landed on the first survey which, I think, equates to the Green Party. The second one showed me as Lib Dem, which leaves me in quandary.
Do I vote for a useless bunch of cunts, with no chance of having any influence in Parliament, or do I ......(you can make the last bit up yourselves).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 21:30:52
Just did the second test thing. I'm surprised how lib dem my views make me. Not that I ever plan to vote in anything other than jest, if I can be arsed.

Lib dems 93%
Labour 89%
Green 76%


Title: Re:
Post by: sonicyouth on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 21:58:10
Green 94%
Labour 89%
Lib Dem 83%

I was planning on voting Green.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Tuesday, February 24, 2015, 19:47:41
Anyone still considering voting green ?

yea ?................have a listen to this............

http://www.lbc.co.uk/incredibly-awkward-interview-with-natalie-bennett-105384


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, February 24, 2015, 19:58:36
Labour  92%
Lib Dem 76%
Green   76%


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, February 24, 2015, 20:36:35
Anyone still considering voting green ?

yea ?................have a listen to this............

http://www.lbc.co.uk/incredibly-awkward-interview-with-natalie-bennett-105384

Holy shit, that was bad.  I won't even be able to use them as a protest vote after listening to that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, February 24, 2015, 20:53:35
Holy shit, that was bad.  I won't even be able to use them as a protest vote after listening to that.

You'd think she might have learnt her lesson after her car crash interview with Andrew Neil in January...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dFn8RIXOBE


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Tuesday, February 24, 2015, 20:54:35
And anyone thinking of voting for UKIP should watch the BBC "Meet The Ukippers" documentary that was on the other evening, it was so bad in places it was more like a mockumentary than the real thing. Nice write up here....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11429785/Meet-the-Ukippers-9-slightly-terrifying-things-we-learned.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Tuesday, February 24, 2015, 23:26:48
Yes, Bennett's interview was bad, but she didn't try and lie her way through it, and is only human at the end of the day. Her 'performance'.shouldn't effect how you read the manifesto or judge your local candidates.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 07:21:02
That interview was the funniest political 5 minutes I've seen since In The Thick of It.

She's obviously completely out of her depth and shouldn't be anywhere near the TV debates, for her own good. Complete laughing stock and to blame it on a cold? Dear oh dear.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 07:25:50
Yes, Bennett's interview was bad, but she didn't try and lie her way through it, and is only human at the end of the day. Her 'performance'.shouldn't effect how you read the manifesto or judge your local candidates.

I agree to a degree, however she/they really need to up their game, just imagine if Milliband had stumbled over  policies like this it would have been everywhere or if Farage had been as poor it would be grasped as being evidence of their lack of substance.

The thing is it does affect the manifesto as it makes it clear that some substantial parts of the document have not remotely been costed which makes you wonder what else is just hypothetical in the document. Whilst this is not surprising, very naive to admit this.

I suspect that the Greens need to learn from the LibDems and if they have any interest in getting involved in a post election coalition make sure they don't have any eye catching manifesto points which are included on the basis that it doesn't really matter as they won't get elected - which haunt you if you do obtain an element of power.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: manc_red on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 08:04:02
I agree to a degree, however she/they really need to up their game, just imagine if Milliband had stumbled over  policies like this it would have been everywhere or if Farage had been as poor it would be grasped as being evidence of their lack of substance.

The thing is it does affect the manifesto as it makes it clear that some substantial parts of the document have not remotely been costed

I only read the transcript, but it doesn't appear to at all. She says there is a fully costed programme which will be set out in the manifesto.

It's a gaffe, obviously, and will of course be seized upon but it's a failure of communication/presentation rather than a reflection on the actual policy.

God help her in the TV debates though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 08:48:11
What with recent tv exposure on UKIP / Green party and Milliband`s general confusing message surely it`s going to be Cameron`s to lose.......?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 09:54:36
I only read the transcript, but it doesn't appear to at all. She says there is a fully costed programme which will be set out in the manifesto.

It's a gaffe, obviously, and will of course be seized upon but it's a failure of communication/presentation rather than a reflection on the actual policy.

God help her in the TV debates though.

I may be a little blurred in my approach to the Greens, we have had them as local councillors here for many years and the simple fact is they don't have any workable policies. We get a monthly newsletter which outlines their successes (mainly litter picking and writing letters to people complaining about things - which never change) - and they are as happy to spin the truth as the next party when it suits them.

Our ward is an odd mix of terraced housing mainly populated by the liberal academics who work at the university and a council estate (I am not an academic but live in that bit). They were elected by the academics and if you want policies to suit the middle classes then you are laughing.

A particular highlight was an attempt to change the parking regulations in our street so that I (and everyone else on our side) would have to pay £40 a year to reduce overall parking by 60%, after three consultation process (god knows how much that cost) when challenged they claimed that it was the County Council pushing it through, I used to work at the County Council and know people in highways - they confirmed that they had told the Green Councillors repeatedly there was no evidence to support the policy but had been overruled.

Sorry to go on, I just get angry when the Greens present themselves as being whiter than white, they may not be as corrupt as the others but they sure as hell will play the political game and lie when it suits them!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 09:56:43
Green Party me hairy arse!

Might as well vote for the Raving Loonies


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 10:00:50
The Greens do have some people who are competent with numbers, it's just that Bennett isn't one of them. I really don't know why she's the leader to be honest, she's pretty regularly a poor media performer.

Molly Scott Cato is a Green MEP and is an economics lecturer, so I'm presuming she can at least add up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 10:20:00
And anyone thinking of voting for UKIP should watch the BBC "Meet The Ukippers" documentary that was on the other evening, it was so bad in places it was more like a mockumentary than the real thing. Nice write up here....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11429785/Meet-the-Ukippers-9-slightly-terrifying-things-we-learned.html

That's exactly why I'm voting for them. If lunatics like that vote for them, I'm in. The idea of UKIP having a say in our affairs (if they actually do get to have a say) is highly amusing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 10:32:33
That's exactly why I'm voting for them. If lunatics like that vote for them, I'm in. The idea of UKIP having a say in our affairs (if they actually do get to have a say) is highly amusing.

Yeah, fucking hilarious having racists in charge.

At least the Greens are harmless.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 11:07:23
The green leader is guilty of getting nervous, forgetting things and not being the best orator. That said they would have made calculations etc before coming up with policies. Cameron is a good talker but lies through his teeth. Ukip are idiots. I'm staggered anyone could seriously consider voting for them


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 11:15:35
Yeah, fucking hilarious having racists in charge.

At least the Greens are harmless.
I wouldn't say giving a bunch of clueless lentil knitters any responsibility in running the country is 'harmless'.
That's the problem though, isn't it? The choices on offer to the electorate are very underwhelming:

Conservatives - Sponsored by Big Business, run by Big Business, selfish, arrogant & looking out for themselves. Appeal to businessmen, tax dodging businessmen, rich people who want to be richer and self serving Public school boys.

Labour - Run by someone with all the charisma of a limp lettuce and full of great ideas, but no tangible ways to pay for them. Appeal to middle aged Trade Unionists and working class people who vote Labour because they always vote Labour, like some kind of fucking statement of their roots.

Lib Dems - Not trusted by a large proportion of people for their performance in government and a leader who appears to be Cameron's bitch. Appeal to people who don't want to vote Tory but hate Labour and aren't racist.

UKIP - Racist, bigoted, madder than a box of frogs and dangerous as fuck. Appeal to people who 'don't like coloureds' and those who think that immigrants are the cause for all their problems. (They're not. You are the cause for most of your problems).

Greens - Some great ideas, but let's face it they haven't got a fucking clue. Appeal to sandal wearing, middle-class, right-on bellends. 

I can't for the life of me understand why so many people feel disenfranchised.....



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 12:36:44
At least the Greens are harmless.

Talk to people from Brighton, where the Greens run the council and have their only sitting MP, and they'll tell you the Greens are far from harmless.  The party is split down the middle between those who are genuine environmentalists and those who are there because they believe in progressive/liberal politics and think that the Greens are the only party that can deliver that.  The result is that local services are in a complete mess.  Unbelievably, the recycling record there is well below the national average.

I simply don't buy the argument that Natalie Bennett's performance in recent interviews is down to being off colour.  I think it demonstrates that she's out of her depth and calls the Greens' competence/ability to govern in to question...which is highly relevant when deciding who to vote for.  I wouldn't go anywhere near them at the moment.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 12:41:47
Talk to people from Brighton, where the Greens run the council and have their only sitting MP, and they'll tell you the Greens are far from harmless.  The party is split down the middle between those who are genuine environmentalists and those who are there because they believe in progressive/liberal politics and think that the Greens are the only party that can deliver that.  The result is that local services are in a complete mess.  Unbelievably, the recycling record there is well below the national average.

I simply don't buy the argument that Natalie Bennett's performance in recent interviews is down to being off colour.  I think it demonstrates that she's out of her depth and calls the Greens' competence/ability to govern in to question...which is highly relevant when deciding who to vote for.  I wouldn't go anywhere near them at the moment.

'Harmless' meaning actually not doing any physical harm to people. I'm not saying they're brilliant or even good, just that unlike UKIP they don't have a platform built upon the twin pillars of casual racism and fear.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 13:39:38
Talk to people from Brighton, where the Greens run the council and have their only sitting MP, and they'll tell you the Greens are far from harmless.  The party is split down the middle between those who are genuine environmentalists and those who are there because they believe in progressive/liberal politics and think that the Greens are the only party that can deliver that.  The result is that local services are in a complete mess.  Unbelievably, the recycling record there is well below the national average.

I simply don't buy the argument that Natalie Bennett's performance in recent interviews is down to being off colour.  I think it demonstrates that she's out of her depth and calls the Greens' competence/ability to govern in to question...which is highly relevant when deciding who to vote for.  I wouldn't go anywhere near them at the moment.

Agree with all of the above, what is grating a little is it seems to be the same commentators in the media (and being repeated all over my Facebook feed) who slate Farage for being unprofessional and lacking substance who are peddling this idea that its the poor little Greens and people should cut them some slack.

Yes criticise UKIP for what they are, but can we at least have some sort of consistency.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 15:28:29
Yeah, fucking hilarious having racists in charge.

Better to do something that's going to be unsettling and might at least cause a problem. Why fuck about pretending one of the other cunts is the answer? This country is fucked and every one of them is a hateful idiot.

I at least like the idea that if enough people were to do it, it might send out a warning shot across the bow of the establishment. Why do we have to continue to be fucked by the ruling class? Why should we continue to vote for the same old white* posh twats who only care about themselves? It's clearly worked so well for so long... Yeah, lets keep doing that.


*who obviously provide enough soundbites to prove they're definitely not racists


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 16:04:57
Why should we continue to vote for the same old white* posh twats who only care about themselves?
You mean like Nigel Farage for example?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 16:13:56
You mean like Nigel Farage for example?

Yes. You've slightly missed my point though - Farage is a protest vote. (Although in reading back I suppose that isn't obvious, I'd never want a cunt like that in power.)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 16:33:43
Yes. You've slightly missed my point though - Farage is a protest vote.
I did get that. Just a very odd protest - unless you're protesting against immigrants, the EU or the NHS? Because that's mainly what differentiates him from the other old white posh twats.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 16:35:08
You mean like Nigel Farage for example?

And Cameron, Clegg, Milliband, Bennett the list goes on, not sure when you would get to someone who didn't meet this criteria!

Politics as it stands in this country is somewhat dominated by 'White posh twat'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 16:37:28
I did get that. Just a very odd protest - unless you're protesting against immigrants, the EU or the NHS? Because that's mainly what differentiates him from the other old white posh twats.

Not sure where one should go with a protest vote, as I would be loathe to give any of the emerging parties a vote as it would only encourage them... possibly a nice local independent candidate who is actually standing for something real....

Or as a friend of mine suggests, just draw a cock on the voting paper... Although I fear that could be misinterpreted as a vote for some of them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 16:42:16
I did get that. Just a very odd protest - unless you're protesting against immigrants, the EU or the NHS? Because that's mainly what differentiates him from the other old white posh twats.

Perhaps, but all other forms of protest are toothless and I refuse to vote for another goon who doesn't do anything worth remembering.

If they were to somehow end up having a say in our country (or maybe come close) it might fuck some shit up and cause some actual passion to emerge from people. We might grow some balls and start to stand up for ourselves (as a populace, en masse).

Shit isn't good and we all rollover and continue to vindicate this broken system. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

And Cameron, Clegg, Milliband, Bennett the list goes on, not sure when you would get to someone who didn't meet this criteria!

Politics as it stands in this country is somewhat dominated by 'White posh twat'

Exactly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 16:47:42
And Cameron, Clegg, Milliband, Bennett the list goes on, not sure when you would get to someone who didn't meet this criteria!

Politics as it stands in this country is somewhat dominated by 'White posh twat'

Bennett is Australian, is it even possible to be Australian and posh?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 16:58:59
Bennett is Australian, is it even possible to be Australian and posh?

(http://www.quotecollection.com/author-images/dame-edna-everage-3.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 17:02:06
Bennett is Australian, is it even possible to be Australian and posh?

I assume she is a British Citizen now anyway?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 17:34:43
Perhaps, but all other forms of protest are toothless and I refuse to vote for another goon who doesn't do anything worth remembering.

If they were to somehow end up having a say in our country (or maybe come close) it might fuck some shit up and cause some actual passion to emerge from people. We might grow some balls and start to stand up for ourselves (as a populace, en masse).

Shit isn't good and we all rollover and continue to vindicate this broken system. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.
I get that. And I'm struggling to suggest a decent alternative tbh as I share your despair at the current establishment, all different shades of the same shite. But I struggle more with the concept that despairing of the establishment would lead me to vote for a rabble of racist bigots with barely a coherent thought between them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 17:41:39
I get that. And I'm struggling to suggest a decent alternative tbh as I share your despair at the current establishment, all different shades of the same shite. But I struggle more with the concept that despairing of the establishment would lead me to vote for a rabble of racist bigots with barely a coherent thought between them.

But they are asking the questions no-one else is. Such as what happens when we run out of renewable energy...


Title: Re:
Post by: london_red on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 18:11:57
As people have said, there's no appealing options regardless of where you sit on the political spectrum.

Complacency, and far too many vested interests have resulted in a number of shades of the same shite.

The Tories may be backed by big business but Labour as they currently are are no better - they're just in different people's pockets.

This lot are too small and unknown to be a legitimate option (yet) - I think they might have candidates standing in two constituencies?

http://www.yppuk.org/p/manifesto.html?m=1

But their values seem closest to my own, personally.

Progressive, different policies that get at the heart of what has driven inequality between rich and poor, and a headline policy that seems fair as well as economically stimulative? Not something I've seen from any of the established parties.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 18:18:28
But they are asking the questions no-one else is. Such as what happens when we run out of renewable energy...

Surely, the point of renewable energy is that it doesn't run out


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 18:24:42
Surely, the point of renewable energy is that it doesn't run out

Henceforth, no one else is asking that question...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 18:26:06
Surely, the point of renewable energy is that it doesn't run out
I dearly hope you are playing along but for completeness....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-candidate-victoria-ayling-asks-in-meeting-what-happens-when-renewable-energy-runs-out-10057008.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 19:31:47
I get that. And I'm struggling to suggest a decent alternative tbh as I share your despair at the current establishment, all different shades of the same shite. But I struggle more with the concept that despairing of the establishment would lead me to vote for a rabble of racist bigots with barely a coherent thought between them.

I understand where you're coming from, but voting the same way has achieved nothing. Something has to change and it'll only change by doing something drastic. Besides, do you actually think they could ever get into power? And if they did get in, do you not in anyway think that being racist and bigoted wouldn't cause some sort of uprising, the like of which we need?*

Actually, typing that makes me realise nothing would change. People will still moan about their neighbour who drives a BMW, because they don't, and will still watch X-Factor and spend their lives on Facebook debating soap operas.

*In all honestly, why, unlike every party since the dawn of time, would they actually follow through on any policies? I can't imagine business would allow them to do anything that harms their interests and I sadly don't think anything would change.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 19:43:52
Anyone who votes UKIP, however they justify it to themselves, is a fucking idiot at best.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 19:47:44
Herthab for PM.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 20:03:41
Anyone who votes UKIP, however they justify it to themselves, is a fucking idiot at best.


I'm a fucking idiot at best


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 20:30:01
I am effectively disenfranchised.  Live in a safe Tory seat, and do not intend to vote Tory.  Under the current First Past the Post (FPTP) voting system, my vote is therefore worthless.  I might as save myself the bother going to the polling station, because my vote will change nothing (other than to improve the turnout figure.)

For that reason alone, I am giving serious thought to the possibility that I might not vote at all this time around - which would be a first for me.  To vote would be to lend support to the current voting system, which I do not approve of.  I'm politically interested...always have been.  So it depresses me that I feel this way.  But I do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 20:32:37
Anyone who votes UKIP, however they justify it to themselves, is a fucking idiot at best.

This post helps show exactly my motivation for voting UKIP. If it makes you angry, hopefully it makes countless others angry. Then, if they somehow ended up getting to have a say in our lives, maybe people can get really angry, wake the fuck up and actually do something.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 20:49:04
I understand where you're coming from, but voting the same way has achieved nothing. Something has to change and it'll only change by doing something drastic. Besides, do you actually think they could ever get into power? And if they did get in, do you not in anyway think that being racist and bigoted wouldn't cause some sort of uprising, the like of which we need?*
No, I think the most likely outcome from a strong UKIP showing at the election is to drive the mainstream parties even further into knee-jerk rightwing policies on all the standard Daily Express issues UKIP stands for. Or at the worst case they form the minority part of a coalition with the Tories - that's what the country really needs, a Tory government with a minority partner egging them on to be even more right wing, even more dismantling of the NHS, even more authoritarian, even more dog-whistle racism. That's quite some vision you're voting for there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: manc_red on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 20:59:49
Or at the worst case they form the minority part of a coalition with the Tories

A genuinely terrifying prospect.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 21:08:20
No, I think the most likely outcome from a strong UKIP showing at the election is to drive the mainstream parties even further into knee-jerk rightwing policies on all the standard Daily Express issues UKIP stands for. Or at the worst case they form the minority part of a coalition with the Tories - that's what the country really needs, a Tory government with a minority partner egging them on to be even more right wing, even more dismantling of the NHS, even more authoritarian, even more dog-whistle racism. That's quite some vision you're voting for there.

Do you honestly think they're going to get any power?

I suppose the reality of the situation is nothing will really change. Maybe red for blue and a few token words about something making headlines, then maybe a short period of occasional justification as to why none of their policies have come to fruition.

And to acknowledge what you've said: you know far more than me about the political system, and clearly have greater trust in it, so what you say carries far more weight than anything I've typed (obviously :) ). I would hope though, that if something that awful were to happen I'd firstly be stoned to death and secondly people might start trying to fight this fucked up system.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 21:26:44
My local constituency is North Dorset.

UKIP lost to the Conservatives here by a very narrow margin

The fact I could be typing this from a place where 'immigrants should get out because this is OUR country' is our political leaning is a fucking terrifying concept.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 21:30:05
Do you honestly think they're going to get any power?

They don't need to get power, they just need to get enough support to get the Tories to turn rightwards. I know internet lefties (although I usually am one) generally paint Cameron as the devil incarnate, but far worse than him lurks on the right of the Tory party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 22:24:57
They don't need to get power, they just need to get enough support to get the Tories to turn rightwards. I know internet lefties (although I usually am one) generally paint Cameron as the devil incarnate, but far worse than him lurks on the right of the Tory party.
and on the left side of the ahem "New" Labour party. Or are they really the "old" Labour party? Just for balance, just for balance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 22:39:07
And to acknowledge what you've said: you know far more than me about the political system
I don't think I do
and clearly have greater trust in it
I definitely don't. I think the most likely outcome of what you're advocating would be a whole series of very tawdry deals which would push our political mainstream several shades to the right with some very unpleasant consquences for the most vulnerable. And I don't think any of our oh-so-principled mainstream parties would blanch even a shade if they sniffed power at the end of it.
so what you say carries far more weight than anything I've typed (obviously :) ).
No it doesn't, that's daft. But I don't share your faith in a Russell Brand style uprising brought on by the excesses of the right. It's been tried before - the European far right and far left both tried it in the 70s - the Italian fascists referred to it as "The Strategy of Tension", the idea being that if they bombed enough tube stations as a counter to far-left terrorism there'd be counter-reaction from the left and eventually a military coup as the state fell apart. While the ultra-left thought if they bombed stuff, then there'd be a state crackdown which would force people into revolt. Neither happened. But a lot of innocent people suffered and died.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 23:45:19
No, I think the most likely outcome from a strong UKIP showing at the election is to drive the mainstream parties even further into knee-jerk rightwing policies on all the standard Daily Express issues UKIP stands for. Or at the worst case they form the minority part of a coalition with the Tories - that's what the country really needs, a Tory government with a minority partner egging them on to be even more right wing, even more dismantling of the NHS, even more authoritarian, even more dog-whistle racism. That's quite some vision you're voting for there.

I think you're making the mistake that UKIP has any polices - on the NHS or indeed anything else.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 00:32:47
.  I'm politically interested...always have been. 

Get involved then at the grass roots...democracy is a fragile flower, for example in Swindon South, there are 30/40 people prepared to put themselves out, to try and get Buckland re-elected....slightly less in Swindon North for Tomlinson.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 04:13:31
I'm a fucking idiot at best
:nod:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 09:42:46
I think you're making the mistake that UKIP has any polices - on the NHS or indeed anything else.
To be fair, I don't think I've ever accused UKIP of having any actual policies (best exemplified by Farage dismissing any commitment given in their manifesto at the last election on the grounds that he hadn't even read it!) but "Nigel's knee-jerks" which is what they have in place of policy are consistently unpleasant and he's plainly extremely hostile to the NHS.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 10:14:22
I'm a fucking idiot at best
Considering your previous comments on political issues I'm surprised you could consider voting for a party which seems to represent the complete opposite of your personal views. You hate the Tories yet will you vote for an even worse option?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 10:52:01
I think a lot of people this time around are simply looking to shake up the Establishment/established order.  The Expenses Scandal in 2010 was the start; and it's grown from there.

How do you achieve that?  In England, many feel that voting UKIP represents the clearest way.  And in Scotland, it's voting for the SNP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 11:04:09
Christ on a fucking bike.  A UKIP vote a protest against expenses scandals?  For fucks sake those cunts have taken some lovely european jobs and are hoovering up every bit of cash they can out of it.  Not because they want to expose the waste in the political system but because they want their snouts in the trough.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 11:48:28
To be fair, I don't think I've ever accused UKIP of having any actual policies (best exemplified by Farage dismissing any commitment given in their manifesto at the last election on the grounds that he hadn't even read it!) but "Nigel's knee-jerks" which is what they have in place of policy are consistently unpleasant and he's plainly extremely hostile to the NHS.

Yep, "Farage's knee jerks" is not a bad description. I won't worry, UKIP's polling trend is most decidedly on the down trajectory - he's taken the once promising party (20 years ago) into a political cul-de-sac.

I'll be very surprised if they end up with more than one seat -Carswell, which has more to do with his own personal popularity locally than anything else.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 12:21:14
Considering your previous comments on political issues I'm surprised you could consider voting for a party which seems to represent the complete opposite of your personal views. You hate the Tories yet will you vote for an even worse option?
arriba, i know its a strange one as I'm a Labour man but the biggest issue for me is Europe, their creeping federalisation and the arrogance of knowing better than anyone.....even Ed Balls. I suppose one of the plusses of never being elected or accountable to anyone.
I'm not particularly bothered about immigration. If we have a let all come in policy then let it be our policy - not a dictat from Europe.
I'm not bothered about sovereignty as I'd happilliy put the Queen in a council house in Halifax or even better next door to Thor.
I'm not against Europe - I'm anti EU. I'm quite happy to trade freely with them as originally signed up for.
For me its about having more control of our own destiny.
I know this will be controversial buit I'd happilly be more aligned to the USA than Europe, althuogh preferably neither.
Labour used to be the anti EU party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 13:03:47
Labour used to be the anti EU party.


Yes...often forgotten that. Labour, up untill 1988, had a proud history of opposing membership of the EEC/EU project. Particularly Hugh Gaitskell who was (and remains) the only leader to see properly the project for what it is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, March 5, 2015, 10:53:03
Imagine being prime minister and be actively trying to avoid debating Ed sodding Milliband.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Thursday, March 5, 2015, 11:27:53
Imagine being prime minister and be actively trying to avoid debating Ed sodding Milliband.

And then trying to give an air of legitimacy to the raving nutters on the far right of your party who are fleeing like rats by insisting they appear in the debate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Thursday, March 5, 2015, 22:01:16
arriba, i know its a strange one as I'm a Labour man but the biggest issue for me is Europe, their creeping federalisation and the arrogance of knowing better than anyone.....even Ed Balls. I suppose one of the plusses of never being elected or accountable to anyone.
I'm not particularly bothered about immigration. If we have a let all come in policy then let it be our policy - not a dictat from Europe.
I'm not bothered about sovereignty as I'd happilliy put the Queen in a council house in Halifax or even better next door to Thor.
I'm not against Europe - I'm anti EU. I'm quite happy to trade freely with them as originally signed up for.
For me its about having more control of our own destiny.
I know this will be controversial buit I'd happilly be more aligned to the USA than Europe, althuogh preferably neither.
Labour used to be the anti EU party.




I nearly agree with you.

Where I disagree.

Believe it or not the Royal family bring in far more than they cost in terms of £'s & standing within the world. Getting rid of them and becoming a republic would IMHO be a retrograde step, the commonwealth would also suffer.

Unfettered immigration had been detrimental on so many levels to everyone, not least the unskilled working class that labour new or old has purported to represent. Not withstanding the amount of undesirable scum that has entered via Europe and the world at large and is underminding our way of life and pissing in our faces. The human rights act also needs to be repealed.

Europe is my beef massively. Corrupt. Anti competive, full of ex communists, un elected beaurocrats pissing billions of € & our £'s Down the drain. The scaremongering by certain political & vested interested individuals WRT jobs and business. As a child of an immigrant myself I fully support immigration, however this needs checks and balances and I have to say that Ukip is offering millions of disenfranchised voters of ALL sides a voice whether mainstream politics like it or not. It is the fault of mainstream politics and the political elite over the years that Ukip have and are gaining critical mass and why the broad sheets as well as red tops report regular smear and scare stories. This is to maintain the status quo, which brings us all in to line as good little subserviant citizens of the system.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 13, 2015, 09:19:51
Eight weeks out from a general election, and the main political story of the day (according to the main broadsheets) is what Ed Miliband's kitchen looks like.

Jesus wept.  And they wonder why people are turning away from politics.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Friday, March 13, 2015, 09:55:27
Negative campaigning as usual.

Nobody has actually got any new, exciting policies so it all disintegrates into scaremongering, ya boo sucks to you politics.

A curse on all their mansions


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 13, 2015, 10:10:22
It's worse than that though.  I try to get a balanced view of most stories, so have got in to the habit of visiting the Telegraph site followed immediately by the Guardian - and they're as bad as each other.  Stuff like this is no more than gossip.  It's truly pathetic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, March 13, 2015, 10:11:04
Whichever party advocates on the spot fines for people who walk whilst - using mobile phones/reading newspapers/books/watching films/tv programmes on their ipads gets my vote.

Fines should be doubled for doing this on train platforms and/or steps.

I think I've already mentioned this in the irritates me thread.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 13, 2015, 10:49:49
Eight weeks out from a general election, and the main political story of the day (according to the main broadsheets) is what Ed Miliband's kitchen looks like.

Jesus wept.  And they wonder why people are turning away from politics.

I've had a look at my Guardian, and can find a headline story, about how invasive surveillance of people's personal data will get a complete overhaul....and inside how Labour is proposing to give Ofgem powers to cut fuel bills if elected, and a massive Tory privatisation plan for the NHS.

I don't think you can turn away from politics, but you can fail to see what is going on around you....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 13, 2015, 11:41:03
Not saying there is an absence of serious debate, Reg.  Just that the irrelevant gossip/twattery is given undue prominence.

Both the Guardian and the Telegraph have the picture of the Milibands in their kitchenette at the very top of their respective web pages at the moment.  The Telegraph leads with the 'story' (in the Guardian, it's second) - and they even have an informative follow up piece on how Kate Middleton also has a second kitchen.

It's worse than pathetic.  These are two of the leading broadsheets/serious news outlets.  And they've turned in to comics.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 13, 2015, 11:55:18
Not saying there is an absence of serious debate, Reg.  Just that the irrelevant gossip/twattery is given undue prominence.

Both the Guardian and the Telegraph have the picture of the Milibands in their kitchenette at the very top of their respective web pages at the moment.  The Telegraph leads with the 'story' (in the Guardian, it's second) - and they even have an informative follow up piece on how Kate Middleton also has a second kitchen.

It's worse than pathetic.  These are two of the leading broadsheets/serious news outlets.  And they've turned in to comics.

Not in the hard copy.....maybe it's something to do with the perceived audience.  The Guardian last year won the Pulitzer prize for public service....due to its work on exposing the kinds of activities undertaken by the security services....which suggests to me it's still a serious newspaper.  However, to survive in this post modern world, you can't be too po-faced...so it does throw in some bollocks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 13, 2015, 12:00:43
I don't think you can turn away from politics, but you can fail to see what is going on around you....
Yes, although that process can be aided by having your attention redirected elsewhere


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 13, 2015, 12:41:21
Not saying there is an absence of serious debate, Reg.  Just that the irrelevant gossip/twattery is given undue prominence.

Both the Guardian and the Telegraph have the picture of the Milibands in their kitchenette at the very top of their respective web pages at the moment.  The Telegraph leads with the 'story' (in the Guardian, it's second) - and they even have an informative follow up piece on how Kate Middleton also has a second kitchen.

It's worse than pathetic.  These are two of the leading broadsheets/serious news outlets.  And they've turned in to comics.

It is the most uninspiring election campaign of my life so far, and I think this is part of the medias problem with it. Instead of any policies its just tit for tat rubbish, take the last PMQ's on one hand we have Milliband banging on about debates (something which incumbent parties always shy away from - seem to remember Cameron baiting Brown similarly last time), and in response we have Cameron banging on about what Labour may do after the election.

I can understand why the media are looking for other stories, Millibands second kitchen looks quite nice, although green basket..... really!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 21:14:24
Anyone watching the channel 4 not quite a debate? Cameron struggling, Paxman is going in strong. Think Milliband may be a little nervous...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 21:16:35
Squirming fucker - but TBF no politician is any different.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 21:19:21
Paxman will be only winner here.

He has the better of Cameron and he will absolutley destroy Ed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 21:23:39
But no politician can defend every single thing they have said in the past and the public realise it.

The only choice we have, as voters, is between one lying bastard and another lying bastard.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir Pissalot on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 21:35:26
As ever, it's a choice of the lesser of two evils.  Ignoring all the false promises, lies and other bollocks they both come out with, it comes down to which of the parties would you prefer to have control of the country's purse strings for the next 5 years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 21:39:49
Cameron very disingenuous asked about private providers in the NHS: talking about charities and hospices. That clearly isn't what people have a problem with is it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 21:42:44
I have recently had a knee replacement - via the NHS I got it done privately at the Ridgeway.

Done within 18 weeks between getting the OK and getting it done.

Brilliant!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 21:52:05
Kay Burley has interrupted Miliband twice in three questions, didn't interrupt Cameron once. Hmm.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 21:53:25
Why hasn't Paxman grilled him before the audience questions?

Cracking cheese, Gromit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 21:53:59
Why hasn't Paxman grilled him before the audience questions?

Cracking cheese, Gromit

They're saving that for the end.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JoeMezz on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 22:21:37
Don't think Paxman has given Milliband a chance to answer his questions properly, at least he's been honest and not tried to hide behind lies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 22:23:11
As ever, it's a choice of the lesser of two evils.  Ignoring all the false promises, lies and other bollocks they both come out with, it comes down to which of the parties would you prefer to have control of the country's purse strings for the next 5 years.

Nail. Head. Hit. As much as I think Cameron is a smug, slimy posh twat I still think currently he is the best bet to continue the recovery of our country. The thought of Ed Milliband as PM somewhat worries me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 22:24:46
I think Ed's held up fairly well, certainly better than I expected. The two times he's cracked have been mentions of his brother being a better candidate though, that wound still looks pretty sore.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JoeMezz on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 22:27:03
I don't personally see what will be achieved by talking about his brother.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 23:40:03
Kay Burley has interrupted Miliband twice in three questions, didn't interrupt Cameron once. Hmm.
Does that surprise you in any way whatsoever? Kay Burley actually doing a reasonable impression of an actual journalist, rather than a partisan hack, now there would be an image to conjure with


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 23:40:55
I don't personally see what will be achieved by talking about his brother.
They might make him cry. That would be great telly. Oh, sorry, were you wondering about who might be better at governing the country?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 23:42:12
Don't think Paxman has given Milliband a chance to answer his questions properly
That's probably been in his favour, doesn't let him give away what a twonk he actually is


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Friday, March 27, 2015, 01:38:39
Actually, Milliband - when he was allowed to - communicated much better than Cameron, certainly in the audience questions, and gave clearer answers.  Although Paxman was pretty ruthless with him, I would say Milliband won the evening.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, March 27, 2015, 08:12:05
The thought of Ed Milliband as PM somewhat worries me.

I'd be more concerned about Ed Balls being in charge of the Treasury.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, March 27, 2015, 08:28:38
only saw the paxman part of Milliband, the thought of him in charge of the country nearly make me want to vote Tory, nearly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, March 27, 2015, 08:37:24
Cameron finds it almost impossible to answer a direct question and comes across as a bit of a cunt. Milliband looks like a rabbit in headlights and doesn't appear very statesmanlike at all.

Unfortunately politics in this country is becoming more and more like The US, where it's personalities, not policies, that are the most important thing. Cameron is a fucking lizard, Milliband is a bumbling incompetent, Clegg is a wimp and Farage is a joke.

Tough choice for the masses....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Friday, March 27, 2015, 09:01:36
Couldn`t bring myself to watch as I see absolutely no point in the TV debates - a few years ago it made Nick Clegg look like a bloke who knew what he was talking about.....the threat of Milliband having to ask Alex Salmond for support in running this country just fills me with a dread that makes Cameron seem like the only choice.....heaven forbid. The media seemingly want to encourage a coalition of any sort....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, March 27, 2015, 09:06:21
well summed up Hethab.

one point though, not seen a manifesto yet. and if there was one, would anyone a) read it, b) believe it ?

I'm convinced most votes have always been cast on habit, leader personality, or failing that who has the best hair.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, March 27, 2015, 09:14:14
well summed up Hethab.

one point though, not seen a manifesto yet. and if there was one, would anyone a) read it, b) believe it ?

I'm convinced most votes have always been cast on habit, leader personality, or failing that who has the best hair.

Well that's my planned Political career fucked then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 27, 2015, 09:16:16
Couldn`t bring myself to watch as I see absolutely no point in the TV debates - a few years ago it made Nick Clegg look like a bloke who knew what he was talking about.....the threat of Milliband having to ask Alex Salmond for support in running this country just fills me with a dread that makes Cameron seem like the only choice.....heaven forbid. The media seemingly want to encourage a coalition of any sort....

If Salmond was not intent on breaking the country up, he'd have a lot to recommend him as a leader.  You can't fault his commitment to his ideals (even if, like me, you don't agree with them.)  And he has more statesmanship/gravitas than the rest of them put together.

Have to say I have a sneaking (& grudging) admiration for the man.  Not hard at all to see how the SNP vote has taken off in Scotland.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 27, 2015, 09:16:37
I'd be more concerned about Ed Balls being in charge of the Treasury.

This makes me shudder.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 27, 2015, 09:22:12
The media seemingly want to encourage a coalition of any sort....

The coalition is happening anyway, regardless of what the media want.  Majority government is likely when you have 2 or 3 serious contenders.  But this time around, we have 5 party politics (Conservative, Labour, Lib Dem, UKIP, SNP).

Once the electorate gets used to the idea that coalition government is the new norm, I am hoping that one of the key arguments against Proportional Representation (fear of coalition government) will fade away.  I am certainly thinking that the Tories' traditional support for First Past the Post will wither when they see the SNP winning 90% of the seats in Scotland with 45% of the popular vote (which is what the polls are forecasting at present).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, March 27, 2015, 09:27:55
Thought Ed easily came across better and didn't dance around the issue of each question like Cameron did.
I think we have to look at the bigger picture and the parties their leaders represent though to make our decision when voting. The Tories are extremely unpleasant, just look at how that cunt Hague was yesterday with his devious plot. Labour have my vote already to get them bastards out. It's the only vote that can do that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 27, 2015, 09:29:01
well summed up Hethab.

one point though, not seen a manifesto yet. and if there was one, would anyone a) read it, b) believe it ?

I'm convinced most votes have always been cast on habit, leader personality, or failing that who has the best hair.

I was thinking this the other week, are the manifesto's normally this late - much of the problem with the coverage at the moment is that we have a media all geared up for an election but nothing of substance to talk about - hence the series of 'at home with the party leaders' interviews!

I watched last night, having not watched any of them in 2010, and I actually though Milliband came across better than Cameron, but that's not saying much! Cameron is very poor at disguising that he is avoiding answering a question and once you notice that he is doing it, you cannot help noticing that he is doing it all the time! I actually quite liked that they had obviously told Milliband to be a big aggro with Paxman as it at least made it interesting - but in both cases nothing of any substance was said!

The response on social media afterwards was interesting if only that many of the left wingers I follow (and the 'friends' I have on Facebook who live their life by posting Guardian links) don't seem to have a good word to say about Milliband, this lack of confidence in their leader jut doesn't seem to look like ending well!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 27, 2015, 09:34:17
Miliband (E) strikes me as another Iain Duncan Smith.  Useful senior level party politician with some interesting ideas, but not party leader material.  He was over-promoted, and even his own party now recognise this.

I would imagine that Labour have probably now learned their lesson and will be unlikely to allow the unions to choose their party leader again in future.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, March 27, 2015, 09:44:32
Thought Ed easily came across better and didn't dance around the issue of each question like Cameron did.
I think we have to look at the bigger picture and the parties their leaders represent though to make our decision when voting.
You're absolutely right. The problem is how many of the electorate will do that and how many of them will dumb down and vote based on little more than who looks better in Hello, or Heat magazine? Or who looks more natural eating a bacon sandwich? Or which of them likes real ale and a fag?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, March 27, 2015, 09:52:16
I can understand people saying Miliband came across better last night, but I'm at a complete loss as to how anyone could think his performance was that of a Prime Minister. He does come across as genuine and honest but also as weak and easy to push around - the SNP will have a field day with him if Labour need their support to form a government.

I don't particularly like Cameron and I won't be voting Tory but we will all be royally fucked if Labour get in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 27, 2015, 10:50:00
I can understand people saying Miliband came across better last night, but I'm at a complete loss as to how anyone could think his performance was that of a Prime Minister. He does come across as genuine and honest but also as weak and easy to push around - the SNP will have a field day with him if Labour need their support to form a government.

I don't particularly like Cameron and I won't be voting Tory but we will all be royally fucked if Labour get in.

They have just replayed the Miliband - Paxman interview, Paxman just really cannot be bothered anymore can he, his questions seemed to have as little substance as the answers!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Friday, March 27, 2015, 11:36:06
What I don't understand is if, as expected, the SNP win virtually all 57(?) Scottish seats, how come they voted against independence.

The sweaties just seem shit scared to go it alone but still turn their back on Westminster.

I would vote for any party that promised English independence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, March 27, 2015, 11:40:45
What I don't understand is if, as expected, the SNP win virtually all 57(?) Scottish seats, how come they voted against independence.

The more MPs they have the more influence they have at Westminster to influence their own affairs, whilst retaining the benefits of staying in the union


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 27, 2015, 11:54:01
What I don't understand is if, as expected, the SNP win virtually all 57(?) Scottish seats, how come they voted against independence.

The sweaties just seem shit scared to go it alone but still turn their back on Westminster.

I would vote for any party that promised English independence.

Two things.

Firstly, the First Past the Post (FPTP) voting system creates a distortion.  The SNP is on course - according to latest polls - to win approx 90% of the parliamentary seats in Scotland.  But they will do so with approx 45% of the popular vote.  And 45% was the proportion of the electorate that voted for independence.  No coincidence there.  So while it could well be an SNP landslide in Scotland, they will likely achieve it with a minority share of the vote.

FPTP distorts both results and political discussions.  You would think, from a lot of political commentary, that virtually all Scots are going to vote SNP in May.  Not true.  And you might also think that the Tory voter is all but extinct in Scotland.  Again, not true.  One in 7 voters in Scotland votes Tory; but the FPTP system conspires to give them just 1 MP (out of 59) up there.  Again, a distortion.

And secondly, there is deep unhappiness with Westminster politics across the UK.  You can see it in this thread.  In Scotland, voting SNP gives many up there a viable way of expressing that dissatisfaction.  There is not a similar viable option down here - other than UKIP, who appeal to a narrower base.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 27, 2015, 12:10:52
 The most interesting political development recently, has been the Supreme Court's decision to back the Guardian, and quash the Tory's efforts to keep hidden Charlie's letters to ministers, which may undermine his "neutrality"

 Will be interesting to see what these look like....as it potentially exposes the fault lines in our process of government, which look increasingly unfit for purpose in a post industrial, post colonial age.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Friday, March 27, 2015, 12:46:45
If nothing else the leaders' debates show that we should be electing Prime Ministers directly and formally separating out the government from MPs (legislative). Unless anyone lives in Doncaster, Witney or Sheffield (or indeed Thanet South) we don't have a say on who is PM.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: reeves4england on Friday, March 27, 2015, 12:53:14
If nothing else the leaders' debates show that we should be electing Prime Ministers directly and formally separating out the government from MPs (legislative). Unless anyone lives in Doncaster, Witney or Sheffield (or indeed Thanet South) we don't have a say on who is PM.

Do they show they show that we should be doing that? Or that half the country mindlessly thinks we are? The two are quite different.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Friday, March 27, 2015, 15:04:46
Do they show they show that we should be doing that? Or that half the country mindlessly thinks we are? The two are quite different.

That leaders' debates exist in itself is an indication...and via the polls we see that Labour, as a party, is more popular than the Tories but is being held back by the unpopularity of its leader.

Cameron according to polling is more popular than Miliband, but his party is not...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 27, 2015, 15:26:08
Cameron according to polling is more popular than Miliband, but his party is not...

...or maybe less unpopular?  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Friday, March 27, 2015, 15:26:51
...or maybe less unpopular?  ;)

Yes... :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Friday, March 27, 2015, 20:24:03
Still voting Green.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: manc_red on Friday, March 27, 2015, 20:26:53
Still voting Green.

 :nod:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Friday, March 27, 2015, 20:33:40
Knitting your own yogurt, eh.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, March 27, 2015, 20:34:29
So potentially we could be ruled from both Brussels and Edinburgh


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, March 27, 2015, 21:11:26
So potentially we could be ruled from both Brussels and Edinburgh
A bit like we were when Labour pulled the strings, de je vous


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 10:09:24
quote author=Ardiles

the First Past the Post (FPTP) voting system creates a distortion.  The SNP is on course - according to latest polls - to win approx 90% of the parliamentary seats in Scotland.  But they will do so with approx 45% of the popular vote.  And 45% was the proportion of the electorate that voted for independence.  No coincidence there.  So while it could well be an SNP landslide in Scotland, they will likely achieve it with a minority share of the vote.

FPTP distorts both results and political discussions.  You would think, from a lot of political commentary, that virtually all Scots are going to vote SNP in May.  Not true.  And you might also think that the Tory voter is all but extinct in Scotland.  Again, not true.  One in 7 voters in Scotland votes Tory; but the FPTP system conspires to give them just 1 MP (out of 59) up there.  Again, a distortion.

[/quote]

Some really interesting points on this thread.  I had no idea on what support the Scots Nat polling landslide was based, so thanks for that insight, Ardiles.

Westminster had its PR opportunity early in this term but a poor version was proposed by the government and rejected.  Tories and Labour have always opposed PR so they can hardly be put out about the distortion having enjoyed outright majorities on minority votes for years.  

Interestingly, the Euro elections which are based on PR produced these results

Party                                           %   MEPs

UK Independence Party                27.49    24
Labour                                        25.40    20
Conservative                                23.93   19
Green                                          7.87      3
Scottish National Party                  2.46      2
Liberal Democrat                          6.87      1
Sinn Fein                                      n/a*     1
Democratic Unionist Party              n/a*     1
Plaid Cymru                                  n/a     1
Ulster Unionist Party                      n/a*     1

(*No PR and more seats per vote than the rest of the uk!)





 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 16:07:39
Dunno about anyone else but I'm warming to Ed Milliband more and more as time goes by. The Tory press going after him with pathetic insults only endears him more. They're doing him more good than damage.

Chicken Cameron on the other hand getting biased coverage isn't painting himself in glory is he?


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 16:15:33
Ed Milliband comes across as a rabbit caught in the headlights every time I see him. he could be a genius, but that's not the way he's coming across. Cameron is far more polished even though he rarely actually says much.

they both seem like public school, not got a clue about the average man in the street posh pricks through.

but more so, though I probably understand less than 1% of the actual issue, labours financial noises make me worried that they'll fuck the economy even more than last time.

for the first time in my life I'm more likely to vote Tory than labour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: OrangeTransits on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 16:21:42
Why, waste of time..........

I live in Spelthorne and the MP is Kwasi Kwarteng who was Camerons fag at Eton who was Boris Johnsons fag at Eton also.

So basically Kwarteng has consumed Camerons Jizz on a Digestive and Cameron has consumed Boris's Jizz. Also on a Digestive.

Milliband doesn't seem capable of consuming anything without getting it all down his shirt.
I suspect he could give my windscreen a good clean though.

Milliband got turned down from Eton on the basis of he wouldn't pass the FAG initiation ceremony known as soggy biscuit.

Alex Salmond is treasonous Cunt of the highest order.

Farage will take all the tax off a pint of Beer.

From where I'm at exactly at this point in time I know who gets my vote. If I can even bother ............

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 16:35:04
labours financial noises make me worried that they'll fuck the economy even more than last time.

That's pretty much where I am, if Balls gets his hands on the economy we could go backwards again. More cuts are needed and the Tories relish that stuff.

Live in a fairly safe Tory seat but UKIP are only party who might have a slight sniff of it so a Tory vote here is a no brainer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 16:52:04
How anyone could vote Tory is beyond me unless you are loaded.  Benefit the wealthy. Protect paedophiles. Hammer the vulnerable. The list of their despicable acts are endless. Truely abhorrent people.

If cuts have to be made then why are they damaging everything in the process? These are things that inevitably will have to be repaired. Schools, the nhs and frontline services are being wrecked by them. They are pro hunting with hounds too which disgusts me. I hate them!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 16:55:49
the economy is so screwed the cuts are needed regardless of the consequences. we can't afford many basics, let alone the overblown public sector labour created last time.

I'm not saying I'll vote Tory, just that I have them ahead of labour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:08:04
How anyone could vote Tory is beyond me unless you are loaded.  Benefit the wealthy. Protect paedophiles. Hammer the vulnerable. The list of their despicable acts are endless. Truely abhorrent people.

If cuts have to be made then why are they damaging everything in the process? These are things that inevitably will have to be repaired. Schools, the nhs and frontline services are being wrecked by them. They are pro hunting with hounds too which disgusts me. I hate them!

This really annoys me.  I'm no Tory, but I do completely understand why a large proportion of the electorate votes for them.  In terms of economic competence, they wipe the floor with Labour.

I also dislike the cabal from elite public schools that runs the party, but to suggest that only the wealthy should vote for them is grossly simplistic and ignores a myriad of reasons why they are favoured by millions of voters.  And if you can show me stats that proves that Conservatives are more predisposed to paedophilia than anyone else, I'd love to see them.

No one likes cuts to public services.  But sadly, after the monumental fuck up of Balls/Brown 'no more boom & bust' years of the early 2000s, they are regrettably necessary.  Unless, of course, we are comfortable with saddling our grandchildren with crippling debts to pay for an uncosted, early 21st century spending splurge.  I know I'm not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:14:05
How anyone could vote Tory is beyond me unless you are loaded.  Benefit the wealthy. Protect paedophiles. Hammer the vulnerable. The list of their despicable acts are endless. Truely abhorrent people.

If cuts have to be made then why are they damaging everything in the process? These are things that inevitably will have to be repaired. Schools, the nhs and frontline services are being wrecked by them. They are pro hunting with hounds too which disgusts me. I hate them!

Er...Rotherham?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:15:07
  I'm no Tory,

To be fair you do a very good impression of one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:21:28
To be fair you do a very good impression of one.

Economically, I am.  I recognise that.  Socially, I'm not.

I've voted for them once, in 1992.  But that was a sensible thing to do in 1992.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:22:26
Er...Rotherham?

You know what party ran Rotherham council and therefore social services don't you?

Not that any party actually protects paedophiles mind you, deary me


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:24:51
Dunno about anyone else but I'm warming to Ed Milliband more and more as time goes by.


I wouldn't trust Miliband to tie up his own shoelaces let alone run the country


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:26:55
You know what party ran Rotherham council and therefore social services don't you?

Not that any party actually protects paedophiles mind you, deary me

That was kind of my point. Rotherham (and other examples) was/is a cover-up by the establishment; Police, Social Services and the Council.

Child abuse is a serious crime, and one that is politically neutral, to use it as a way of scoring political points as arriba did is pretty low and diminishes the scale of the problem.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:34:07
This really annoys me.  I'm no Tory, but I do completely understand why a large proportion of the electorate votes for them.  In terms of economic competence, they wipe the floor with Labour.

I also dislike the cabal from elite public schools that runs the party, but to suggest that only the wealthy should vote for them is grossly simplistic and ignores a myriad of reasons why they are favoured by millions of voters.  And if you can show me stats that proves that Conservatives are more predisposed to paedophilia than anyone else, I'd love to see them.

No one likes cuts to public services.  But sadly, after the monumental fuck up of Balls/Brown 'no more boom & bust' years of the early 2000s, they are regrettably necessary.  Unless, of course, we are comfortable with saddling our grandchildren with crippling debts to pay for an uncosted, early 21st century spending splurge.  I know I'm not.
I get annoyed that anyone could vote Tory. Hey ho. Tell me how we'd have been better off had the Tories been in government pre financial meltdown? I'd think that even if things were better financially(which I doubt) the public services improved under Labour wouldn't be there to ruin now. Something else would be destroyed instead.

Er...Rotherham?
what's your point? Were Labour ministers ignoring mp's over Rotherham?
Thatcher and Leon Britain on the other hand eh?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:37:14
Economically, I am.  I recognise that.  Socially, I'm not.

I've voted for them once, in 1992.  But that was a sensible thing to do in 1992.

Of course it was.... 5 years of the most corrupt, sleaze riddled administration, since the 1832 Reform Act.  Privatised the railways as a final scorched earth policy as they retreated. Well done.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:53:24
That was kind of my point. Rotherham (and other examples) was/is a cover-up by the establishment; Police, Social Services and the Council.

Child abuse is a serious crime, and one that is politically neutral, to use it as a way of scoring political points as arriba did is pretty low and diminishes the scale of the problem.

Bollocks. Has nothing to do with point scoring. It's just another example of something I dislike them for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:56:45
I get annoyed that anyone could vote Tory. Hey ho. Tell me how we'd have been better off had the Tories been in government pre financial meltdown? I'd think that even if things were better financially(which I doubt) the public services improved under Labour wouldn't be there to ruin now. Something else would be destroyed instead.
I agree on pretty much all of that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:58:04

How anyone could vote Tory is beyond me unless you are loaded... Protect paedophiles.

I fully appreciate you don't like the Tories, and there are many decent reasons not to like them, but that was political point scoring using child abuse as a reason - when the issue covers members of all political parties. Please don't try to wriggle out of it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 18:07:27
I fully appreciate you don't like the Tories, and there are many decent reasons not to like them, but that was political point scoring using child abuse as a reason - when the issue covers members of all political parties. Please don't try to wriggle out of it.
 
er, I'm not trying to wriggle out of anything. I've explained why I posted that comment. If you want to dismiss my reasons then fine but I listed a few examples. The peado cover up was one of a few.

People list historical happenings for current political debate, why is this issue, which happened on Thatcher's watch not a relevant reason for me not to have included it in the list of dislikes? That's all I did whether you accept that or not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: normy on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 18:09:54
I hated Blair, mainly for the Iraq War, but it seems strange that he is Cameron's hero and they are great social chums, if what I have read is correct. Does this suggest anything?  I'm confused.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 18:44:23
Of course it was.... 5 years of the most corrupt, sleaze riddled administration, since the 1832 Reform Act.  Privatised the railways as a final scorched earth policy as they retreated. Well done.

Fair enough.  And I am sure that was at least partly why they did not get my vote in 1997.

I was referring more to the quality of the alternative on offer in 1992.  ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROKXlvYMKQc


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 19:29:28
Fair enough.  And I am sure that was at least partly why they did not get my vote in 1997.

I was referring more to the quality of the alternative on offer in 1992.  ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROKXlvYMKQc

You weren't the only one taken in by Rupert Murdoch, after all it was The Sun Wot Won It.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 20:06:47
Why bring Murdoch in to this?  The ginger twat in the video needed no help from anyone to end his domestic political career.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 20:22:42
Never voted Tory before but will do in May. Hoping that some how there's a swing as a labour govt would be a disaster for the economy.  Plus not overly excited at the thought of a labour/Snp coalition. The efforts of bitter together may well come back and bite us on the backside.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 20:50:34
It's going to be a coalition again. Looking at Tory policy and how the disadvantaged are penalised, while the privileged are protected, fills me with unease. I suppose it depends on whether you want a society where greed and selfishness are priorities and where welfare and fairness aren't. Don't get me wrong, I'm not enamoured by any of the options, but the Conservatives would never get my vote.

In response to those who see the Tories as somehow doing a good job, re austerity, it's interesting to see where all the cuts are coming from and what sectors of society aren't being penalised.

All in it together? Yeah, right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 20:53:36
Labour are no better than Tories. Professional politicians who have fuck all idea of the real world bar a few back benchers. Labour need to get rid of the north London intelligensia. They need to get a blunt northerner, simon danczuk possibly and get some real people on the front bench. They need to get back in touch with the working man. They are as far removed as Cameron and Gideon and the other posh boys


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Iffy's Onion Bhaji on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 22:43:53
There really are no credible options this election. All of them are hopeless.

I don't like Cameron and can't stand Millaband. To be honest I'm not overly political but always make the effort to vote but this time I'm tempted not to bother at all and if I do it will probably be a spolit ballot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 23:23:21
Tell me how we'd have been better off had the Tories been in government pre financial meltdown? I'd think that even if things were better financially(which I doubt) the public services improved under Labour wouldn't be there to ruin now.

Labour spent money we didn't have, so when the crash came we were harder hit than we would have been under a Tory government (as our debts wouldn't have been as high). We're still paying now for the Labour spending and will be for a long time to come. GWH being a good example, Labour get the credit for building it, but the current Tory government are the ones still having to find the money to continue making the payments on it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 23:28:01
Labour spent money we didn't have, so when the crash came we were harder hit than we would have been under a Tory government (as our debts wouldn't have been as high). We're still paying now for the Labour spending and will be for a long time to come. GWH being a good example, Labour get the credit for building it, but the current Tory government are the ones still having to find the money to continue making the payments on it.
So what would you suggest, we don't build hospitals? The financial crisis wasn't a result of over spending in the public sector was it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: manc_red on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 00:25:07
Labour spent money we didn't have, so when the crash came we were harder hit than we would have been under a Tory government (as our debts wouldn't have been as high). We're still paying now for the Labour spending and will be for a long time to come. GWH being a good example, Labour get the credit for building it, but the current Tory government are the ones still having to find the money to continue making the payments on it.
No, it was PFI.

Anyway, would you rather be treated at PHM?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 01:31:35
So what would you suggest, we don't build hospitals? The financial crisis wasn't a result of over spending in the public sector was it?

You build new where you absolutely need to and re invest where you have existing, like PMH and when you can afford them. PFI were in financial terms to the tax payer like fucking timeshare scams, representing a scandalous waste of money that as said our kids will be paying for. Actually it is, that and piss poor financial regulation. Both responsibilities of the government of the day, who were?

In my adult life time, on the two occasions where the conservatives have come to power, they have had to rebuild an economy wrecked by labour. The last labour government inherited the best set of donestic economic figures of any incoming government in history. So where did it all go wrong? See my first paragraph. The coalition government inherited the worst figures an incoming government has in history.

You cannot turn a super tanker encconomy round like a speed boat. Those of you reading this who have gotten into financial difficulty think how long it took you to get out of the shit and then think of the sacrifices you made along the way to achieve it. You just cannot declare yourself bankrupt as a nation like a private individual BTW if you managed to pull that one off.

A countries finances are no different, the figures are obviously bigger but the rules and principles remain the same.

If labour had won the last general election I shudder to think of what things would be like now. They too would have had to make some very hard choices. The difference being is they would have borrowed more to try and sort them out and taxed more into the bargain.......

Would you jeopardise your family's security and future by borrowing more when you're already up to your neck?

It is remarkably two faced of labour to keep bashing the bankers. They happily cosied up to them when Brown was chancellor and reaping in the tax reciepts at the same time. I wince at the naivety of Brown & Balls that they not only thought they had abolished boom & bust but that it would carry on ad infinitem, astonishing.

You don't need a degree in economics to realise that an economic cycle has peaks and troughs.

I don't particularly like Cameron's style and substance on the other hand Milliband is a puppet for the unions and I don't believe he has the where with all to cut it as PM. David Milliband on the other hand, different class.

For me it comes down to hard cash, not mine personally but that of our great country. If we as a nation prosper so do we today and our kids tomorrow, everything else is a side show because no matter who you vote for the government always gets in.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 14:10:34
Labour spent money we didn't have, so when the crash came we were harder hit than we would have been under a Tory government (as our debts wouldn't have been as high). We're still paying now for the Labour spending and will be for a long time to come. GWH being a good example, Labour get the credit for building it, but the current Tory government are the ones still having to find the money to continue making the payments on it.
How do you know that the Tories wouldn't have spent as much? I don't remember their respective leaders being critical of the then Labour government. Maybe I'm wrong?
 I do remember them agreeing with a lot of the decisions then taken and everyone was riding along with it nicely. As with all past political arguments and mistakes, hindsight is a useful thing.
I'm sure that the main reasons Labour were ousted(the iraq war and financial crash) would have happend anyway. A lot of the good they did is forgotten.

Labour should take the credit for the new hospitals and other improvements made. They were needed. The old pmh was in a right state(my Mrs worked there) and was not fit for purpose.

What we are seeing now with the nhs is people being treated in car parks and dying on trolleys in corridors. It is in rapid decline if the comments from the staff who work in it are to be believed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 16:02:11
How do you know that the Tories wouldn't have spent as much? I don't remember their respective leaders being critical of the then Labour government. Maybe I'm wrong?
 I do remember them agreeing with a lot of the decisions then taken and everyone was riding along with it nicely. As with all past political arguments and mistakes, hindsight is a useful thing.
I'm sure that the main reasons Labour were ousted(the iraq war and financial crash) would have happend anyway. A lot of the good they did is forgotten.

Labour should take the credit for the new hospitals and other improvements made. They were needed. The old pmh was in a right state(my Mrs worked there) and was not fit for purpose.

What we are seeing now with the nhs is people being treated in car parks and dying on trolleys in corridors. It is in rapid decline if the comments from the staff who work in it are to be believed.

We don't but they didn't. They were not in power were they?
I think you are. I seem to remember a lot of opposition to the PFI initiatives, nationally and locally. I agree with you the Iraq war was a contributing factor. Again Arriba, with the money rolling into the exchequer, money should have been put away to mend the roof when the sun was shining in financial terms not flittering it away (I go back to mcboom & bust again and his favourite buzz word prudence), prudence my arse. I can't argue WRT the state of the old PMH. However, the new hospital as new as it is appears to not be fit for purpose either....

Again I can't disagree about the treatment of patients as like those who do not work in the NHS I can only go by what I see in the media and personal experience. But let me remind you that the last government put on an extra 800k-1m non jobs onto the P&L account of GB PLC, who has to pay for them? It has taken the coalition five years to get some financial stability into the economy and forecasts show another five years to reach the target of being in the black. That's ten years to "undo" what 12 years of labour did.

As I said I'm no fan of Cameron but as it stands the punitive tax raising that labour are proposing is like pissing in the wind and the really, really wealthy that labour despise, though most of them seem to have done ok themselves will find ways of avoiding the extra levies placed upon them. The more you tax the more the black economy grows, something labour seem to no recognise. I wonder how may "cash" receipts Balls really asks for?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 17:25:19
We don't but they didn't. They were not in power were they?
I think you are. I seem to remember a lot of opposition to the PFI initiatives, nationally and locally. I agree with you the Iraq war was a contributing factor. Again Arriba, with the money rolling into the exchequer, money should have been put away to mend the roof when the sun was shining in financial terms not flittering it away (I go back to mcboom & bust again and his favourite buzz word prudence), prudence my arse. I can't argue WRT the state of the old PMH. However, the new hospital as new as it is appears to not be fit for purpose either....

Again I can't disagree about the treatment of patients as like those who do not work in the NHS I can only go by what I see in the media and personal experience. But let me remind you that the last government put on an extra 800k-1m non jobs onto the P&L account of GB PLC, who has to pay for them? It has taken the coalition five years to get some financial stability into the economy and forecasts show another five years to reach the target of being in the black. That's ten years to "undo" what 12 years of labour did.

As I said I'm no fan of Cameron but as it stands the punitive tax raising that labour are proposing is like pissing in the wind and the really, really wealthy that labour despise, though most of them seem to have done ok themselves will find ways of avoiding the extra levies placed upon them. The more you tax the more the black economy grows, something labour seem to no recognise. I wonder how may "cash" receipts Balls really asks for?
It's Mostly all with hindsight though isn't it? I'll take your word for the at the time opposition of pfi(I cannot remember) but I do remember the Tories endorsing much of what Labour were doing during much of their term. Remember the Tories were a joke for quite a while and totally unelectable during that time.
Undoubtedly Labour made mistakes but even with those mistakes I'd still take their years in government over any other party.

I voted lib dem last time as I was disillusioned with Labour. Again with hindsight that was a big error on my part. It won't happen again. We learn by our mistakes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 17:26:13
So what about the punitive measures the Tories inflict on the most vulnerable in society, in the name of austerity, while their old school buddies in the City and large corporations are hardly affected? If revenue needed to be increased  (and it obviously was) fine, but there has to be a more equitable way of doing it than the Conservatives method of robbing the poor to pay the rich.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 20:15:05
So what about the punitive measures the Tories inflict on the most vulnerable in society, in the name of austerity, while their old school buddies in the City and large corporations are hardly affected? If revenue needed to be increased  (and it obviously was) fine, but there has to be a more equitable way of doing it than the Conservatives method of robbing the poor to pay the rich.

I assume your first sentence was a retorical question and not aimed at me? However, I'll humour you with a reply. I don't know about the "punitive" measures, I'm sure in your mind you have examples so could you be more specific? You mean the movers and shakers in the city and big business that labour cosied upto while the going was good and who they now vilify as it suits their bash the posh boys and their money? Just have a look at the private schools attended by labour MPs and their respective career paths and directorships, you may be surprised, hey you could even class them as pseudo Tories if you did not know they were labour MPs. I think robbing the poor to pay the rich is a best a bit dramatic, as if you are yourself working and living in relative comfort you would have benefitted from the raise in the personal tax allowance for starters. You could always give it back as could anyone.

I'm not condoning or condemning either of the two main parties, just trying to add some balance. The electorate tends to have short memories.

Personally I think overseas aid is to much and should be stopped for some and realigned for other countries but I don't make those decisions the government do. I also think we'd be better off outside the EU, just think what we could spend £53m PER DAY on?, every day. Maybe those vulnerable members of society could be given more? We could also spend more on our armed forces, the NHS, the police.

However you look at it the tax take of any government in any fiscal year is only so big, how you divvy up the cake is down to the ideological view of the incumbents at the time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 20:33:36
It's pointless to get into a debate on politics. For every argument there is a counter argument, for every example, a counter example.
I am not a Labour sympathiser (At least not since Blair turned them into a ideologically  bankrupt party) I just think that The Consevatives version of society is not as fair, just or equitable as it should, or could be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: stfc1975 on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 20:42:52
It's pointless to get into a debate on politics. For every argument there is a counter argument, for every example, a counter example.
I am not a Labour sympathiser (At least not since Blair turned them into a ideologically  bankrupt party) I just think that The Consevatives version of society is not as fair, just or equitable as it should, or could be.

Agree with this totally ...then I looked at who started the thread   :eek:.

My opinion still hasn't changed  , bunch of cunts the lot of them just filling their own pockets.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 21:41:29
Agree with this totally ...then I looked at who started the thread   :eek:.

My opinion still hasn't changed  , bunch of cunts the lot of them just filling their own pockets.

It is pointless, but I'm still interested in how other people think. For what it's worth, I agree with you on the bunch of cunts stance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 21:47:51
Who you going to vote for then herthab?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 21:55:17
Who you going to vote for then herthab?

To be honest I don't know yet, it's easier to find reasons not to vote for any of them but that's a cop out. I voted Lib Dem last time, which didn't work out the way I thought it would!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 22:05:01
Maybe it's because I don't really align with a party but I find it odd that so many people are convinced that one party can do no wrong and that all the others want to ruin the country and sell the remains to the Unions/private Companies/the EU/Darth Vader (delete as applicable). Every party has their better points and their worse, and I don't believe they're all pigs in the trough with no interest in society, there are people on all sides of all parties that I am sure are doing what they think is right.

All this adversarial bollocks over relatively minor policy differences feels like a bit of a dumb sideshow to me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 22:08:22
To be honest I don't know yet, it's easier to find reasons not to vote for any of them but that's a cop out. I voted Lib Dem last time, which didn't work out the way I thought it would!
I don't think the vast majority thought their vote for the lib dems would have seen the results we've had with it. They're now a joke party and will get absolutely trounced. Worryingly ukip will get their share I fear which is even worse


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 23:18:18
It's pointless to get into a debate on politics. For every argument there is a counter argument, for every example, a counter example.
I am not a Labour sympathiser (At least not since Blair turned them into a ideologically  bankrupt party) I just think that The Consevatives version of society is not as fair, just or equitable as it should, or could be.

Interestingly I nearly agree with your last sentence. Life is not and never has been fair. That said it does not hurt to try to make it so. Just need to be careful that the hand that feeds the needy has the means to supply the demand and the more you give the more is wanted. What started out as a safety net has turned into a nice comfy feathered bed with entitlements.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Monday, March 30, 2015, 17:08:03
That Nicola Sturgeon is a right old hound.

And is it a pre-requisite for SNP MPs to be named after fish?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Down on Monday, March 30, 2015, 17:10:48
Aren't there Swindon Borough Council seats up for grabs on 7th May too? Which candidates will give STFC the best consideration if elected? Can we get a few candidates on here to give their STFC manifesto? Got to be votes in it for them from the local TEFers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 30, 2015, 19:31:13
Aren't there Swindon Borough Council seats up for grabs on 7th May too? Which candidates will give STFC the best consideration if elected? Can we get a few candidates on here to give their STFC manifesto? Got to be votes in it for them from the local TEFers.
It would be utterly pointless. They'd all just give the usual platitudes about how important the club is, pride of the town etc etc. If it's that big a decider for you, you'd be better off looking at their voting records. But tbh, while there are some individual councillors who do genuinely care what happens to the club, overall the club will benefit from the town overall getting back on it's feet from the stagnation of the past 6-7 years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, April 2, 2015, 20:56:54
Well that debate was crap, wasn't it.

The only moment of any interest was Farage deciding to have a go at foreign people with AIDS. Those evil bastards.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, April 2, 2015, 21:09:22
Load of wank, resulted to trolling the lib dems and labour on Twitter to keep me awake.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, April 2, 2015, 21:14:41
Twitter was a definite winner tonight, know it's easier to take the piss from afar than do something positive but I only really carried on watching for the reaction on there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Thursday, April 2, 2015, 21:18:59
Interestingly I nearly agree with your last sentence. Life is not and never has been fair. That said it does not hurt to try to make it so. Just need to be careful that the hand that feeds the needy has the means to supply the demand and the more you give the more is wanted. What started out as a safety net has turned into a nice comfy feathered bed with entitlements.

All you can ask for is a chance the rest is down to you. I was lucky to be given that chance.
People need to understand one rule in life, sad but true. You are on your own.
Understand this and you are more prepared for the shit that is going to come your way.
Life is one big game with no rules. However you are tested on your values and morals.
The politicians do nothing and represent themselves.
Kind of glad I am in the latter part of my career. Didn't do fantastic at school or go to University.
Done it back to front and studied whilst working.
Milliband is an absolute twat of the highest order and how anyone could vote for him. Cameron no understanding of how people live and so far away from the average man in the street.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Thursday, April 2, 2015, 21:37:12
I wouldn't trust Miliband to tie up his own shoelaces let alone run the country

Ha - Cameron told me he couldn't even control his own um 'free spirited' Tory Town Council...and to be fair it's one thing he's been right on.

You have seen that he never wears shoes with laces right?


Title: Re:
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 3, 2015, 07:14:57
So what did I learn....

Nothing about the usual suspects, I find Nichola Sturgeon incredibly annoying and I am still a sucker for a Welsh accent.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Friday, April 3, 2015, 07:51:42
All you can ask for is a chance the rest is down to you. I was lucky to be given that chance.
People need to understand one rule in life, sad but true. You are on your own.
Understand this and you are more prepared for the shit that is going to come your way.
Life is one big game with no rules. However you are tested on your values and morals.
The politicians do nothing and represent themselves.
Kind of glad I am in the latter part of my career. Didn't do fantastic at school or go to University.
Done it back to front and studied whilst working.
Milliband is an absolute twat of the highest order and how anyone could vote for him. Cameron no understanding of how people live and so far away from the average man in the street.




This for me.

Anybody who thinks voting a particular way will change things is deluded.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Friday, April 3, 2015, 08:08:37
This for me.

Anybody who thinks voting a particular way will change things is deluded.

Do you know what Flash, I would love it if the ballot paper had s tick box at the bottom that said "none of them."
This way at least it shows people are bothered to vote but can show their sheer resentment for them all.
Sadly this time I would vote this.
Would be great to see a landslide victory.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 10:16:52
Do you know what Flash, I would love it if the ballot paper had s tick box at the bottom that said "none of them."
This way at least it shows people are bothered to vote but can show their sheer resentment for them all.
Sadly this time I would vote this.
Would be great to see a landslide victory.

Out of interest what would you like to replace the current democratic system with?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, April 3, 2015, 10:21:20
Do you know what Flash, I would love it if the ballot paper had s tick box at the bottom that said "none of them."
This way at least it shows people are bothered to vote but can show their sheer resentment for them all.
Sadly this time I would vote this.
Would be great to see a landslide victory.

The option already exists. It's called "spoiling your ballot" and has traditionally been used for this purpose. Doesn't tend to get talked about much though, unless you and Russell can mobilise the millions to your cause.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Down on Friday, April 3, 2015, 10:39:28
There are certain names you are not allowed to used on ballet forms. 'None of the above' being one. I see that the Beer, Baccy and Crumpet Party had to change their name to Beer, Baccy and Crumpets to be accepted so as not to offend the feminists.

Is the CISTA Party fielding local candidates? Cannabis Is Safer Than Alcohol.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, April 3, 2015, 11:12:32
I'm going this route I think

http://www.votenone.org.uk/none_of_the_above.html

Tories are probably the most credible big party, but I can't bring myself to vote for the self serving toff scum


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 11:17:53
I'm going this route I think

http://www.votenone.org.uk/none_of_the_above.html

Tories are probably the most credible big party, but I can't bring myself to vote for the self serving toff scum

So like The DoB I'll ask you what you would like to see in place of our democratic process?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 3, 2015, 11:23:23
So like The DoB I'll ask you what you would like to see in place of our democratic process?
Being disillusioned with the current crop of self-serving arseholes doesn't mean people want rid of democracy. Most folks I talk to would like to see more democracy in the process, rather than the current five-year circular stitch-up between different shades of the elite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Friday, April 3, 2015, 11:24:51
So like The DoB I'll ask you what you would like to see in place of our democratic process?

The most interesting thing for me about Homage To Catalonia was how the anarchist regiments all obeyed order, not because they had to, but because they realised it was necessary.

I can't even vote in this election, however, in the past it always irked me that I couldn't vote for a party of choice if they weren't standing in my constituency. Is that okay for a start?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 11:27:01
Being disillusioned with the current crop of self-serving arseholes doesn't mean people want rid of democracy. Most folks I talk to would like to see more democracy in the process, rather than the current five-year circular stitch-up between different shades of the elite.

With respect, I'm asking Duke and Batch....I'd like to hear what they think first before assuming your analysis reflects their ideas.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, April 3, 2015, 11:40:58
So like The DoB I'll ask you what you would like to see in place of our democratic process?

In my case its not a vote against the democratic process, its a protest against there being no real party that represents what I want to see.

I used to live in a very very safe Tory seat, so my vote was somewhat irrelevant then, so I used to think at least in PR my vote would count. Now I'm not so sure that's really relevant.

All I see are a load of career politicians, spouting the normal "lets be clear", "lessons have been learned" bland bollocks that doesn't seem to distinguish one from the other. The two main contenders, the Tories and Labour are the worst culprits.

Labour make some good noises, talk of helping families, talk of ending zero hours contracts (though Ed Balls has used the to employ people so..). But I seriously think they will fuck up the countries economy again. Plus Milliband doesn't seem up to it.

The Tories seem to make financial sense. But we all know how they have to pay for the cuts, and which section of society will be least hit by this financial necessity.

In any case what's the point. I voted Lib Dem last time around because of some key manifesto pledges. And look what happened to one of those. My kids will cost at least 54K in today's money to put through uni, and that's just fees. In any case Labour already fucked up further education before them with their "uni for all" saying this is a good thing, but leaving the government unable to properly assist funding it and providing dubious benefit to the countries future workforce.

So is voting for the least bad candidate a proper way to vote. Or should I be looking at who is best for Swindon - erm, no, the economy is far more important than that.

My real choices are don't vote or protest vote.

I'm sure someone will say, why not change things if you don't like them. Well, I can't quit my job, have no income and embark on a political crusade. We'd all starve and be homeless.

So I'm registering a protest vote. If 10 million people did the same, something will change. They won't, nothing will change, but I'd rather do that than vote for someone who doesn't represent me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 11:48:48
^^ I see. So you like democracy, but don't want to vote for anyone unless they agree with everything you think.... :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 11:54:25
Being disillusioned with the current crop of self-serving arseholes doesn't mean people want rid of democracy. Most folks I talk to would like to see more democracy in the process, rather than the current five-year circular stitch-up between different shades of the elite.

OK, Batch has replied. OK so how do you propose to get more democracy into the system... ?


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, April 3, 2015, 11:58:06
Quote
^^ I see. So you like democracy, but don't want to vote for anyone unless they agree with everything you think.... :hmmm:
no reg that's not exactly what it is. I disagree strongly with some of their policies. I'm not voting for them under those circumstances.

I'm not stupid enough to think there will be a 'batch party' that provides everything I think it should. in fact I wouldn't vote for that ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, April 3, 2015, 12:04:12
OK, Batch has replied. OK so how do you propose to get more democracy into the system... ?

An electoral system which actually makes most people's vote worth casting would be a start.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, April 3, 2015, 12:05:20
An electoral system which actually makes most people's vote worth casting would be a start.

Well you lot had the chance to vote for one of those and missed your opportunity. Typical British conservatism.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: OrangeTransits on Friday, April 3, 2015, 12:11:27
^^ I see. So you like democracy, but don't want to vote for anyone unless they agree with everything you think.... :hmmm:

If you think what we have is democracy, you are deluded. A true democracy would have no party whips directing MP's.

MP's would listen to there constituents and vote for what they wanted. An honourable thing to do in my book as it was those said constituents that elected them into the House in the First place.

People are fooled into believing we live in a democracy, when in fact all we have is a bit of paper to scribble on every 4 years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, April 3, 2015, 12:20:00
I think we can define a process that gives you what you want though Batch.  Get rid of political parties, which have to be self interested or of someone else's self interest to survive.  Instead we already have Civil service, just employ some administrators to carry out the countries wishes.  Then potential individual policies can be voted on in an X-Factor style weekly vote on TV, replacing said programme on ITV.  You could probably get through 10 or so policies a week with a results show on Sunday's.  It'd be a right mash-up of right left and everything inbetween.

As it is, voting any which way based on the economic policies is pretty much flawed because Govts lost control of economic influence years ago with global business now all but dictating that.

I shan't be voting because currently no single party offers anything substantially different, and those that do are generally to a further extreme away from own views - UKIP for example who presume I give a shit about immigration.  Personally I'd vote for a party with a selection of right and left wing policies, hence my daft suggestion above.

I would vote for:

Very limited immigration control - I'm not very nationalistic and would love the freedom to choose where to live (if any area becomes shit people would soon move back out).
Free health and social care run by a central body with not interest in profits within the system
High tax on higher earners to fund the health, social and welfare policies needed, but a winding down of the need of charities to make me feel guilty about everything (this would be me voting for a financial impact on myself).
A welfare state that is flexible enough to change but protects a set% of the population ensuring every family has a base minimum regardless of circumstances, but a working family could earn more.  Part of this right now would be to extend retirement age due to the change in population demographics (far less children vs. pensioners).  Maybe a part time pension for a number of years for example.  To fit alongside my immigration shackles being removed this base amount is sufficient to give a an agreed minimum living standard and nothing more, so would do little to entice people.  I'd also probably break this into regions of the country, but haven't thought that through.
A single education system that all must attend, with private education as a supplemental offer once the base one has been completed.
Removal of nuclear deterrents (what a stupid term) - how do all the non nuclear countries possibly survive?
Defined sentences for criminals - behaviour in prison should be expected to be good, so no need for early release.  Sitting alongside this, some offences to be completely removed, certainly around drugs - it's already an offence to steal stuff, so if someone wishes to harm themselves that bit is up to them.

So, some of it is completely nuts, and hence I find nobody worth voting for.  If Labour or Conservatives or Lib Dems get in, it makes little overall difference to me.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, April 3, 2015, 12:22:25
Well you lot had the chance to vote for one of those and missed your opportunity. Typical British conservatism.

I voted for it, thank you. But AV really isn't much better, progress perhaps, but the moment it turned into a referendum on what people thought of Clegg it was sunk.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Friday, April 3, 2015, 12:33:30
Out of interest what would you like to replace the current democratic system with?

Nothing wrong with the Democratic system, the fabric with what this Country stands for.
Will start with fraudulent expenses claims for one.
These are the pillars of society that people put their trust in.
Absolute scum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Friday, April 3, 2015, 12:36:06
The option already exists. It's called "spoiling your ballot" and has traditionally been used for this purpose. Doesn't tend to get talked about much though, unless you and Russell can mobilise the millions to your cause.

Disagree. Having the "none of them" actually gets people to vote, a protest vote to tell the politicians of the overall dissatisfaction and lack of trust the public actually have.
Would have a negative impact though on the UKIP protect vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Friday, April 3, 2015, 12:38:54
Being disillusioned with the current crop of self-serving arseholes doesn't mean people want rid of democracy. Most folks I talk to would like to see more democracy in the process, rather than the current five-year circular stitch-up between different shades of the elite.

Spot on. vote PD :)
At least in your tenure you were influential in defeating another low life piece of shit :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 15:20:47
This thread is hilarious.

There's a bottom line in play. It's called 'the bottom line'. It's a financial term for those that can't see the wood for the tree's.

The sooner the UK can get it's trade deficit down and start reducing the National Debt, the sooner the likes of Red Ed et al can start getting their investment in public services back.

The Labour party fucked it up. They spent, not only every penny they took, they borrowed in a delusional belief they had 'abolished boom and bust' (how fucking stupid are these cunts?) and they mortgaged future generations livelihoods in PFI agreements.

Now, not only do they not admit where they went wrong mis-managing the economy, they want to borrow more to 'invest in Britain'.

Why, when the British economy was was running a surplus as opposed to deficit, just a decade ago, did they choose to not 'invest in Britain' but to expand the welfare state to unsustainable levels? Why?

What on earth makes these fucking idiots believe that borrowing money to invest money has one iota of sense to it?  Anyone who has ever invested money on a serious level will tell you that it's nothing more than a 50%50 bet.

Is that how our economy should be run, on the toss of a coin?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, April 3, 2015, 16:05:21
This thread is hilarious.

There's a bottom line in play. It's called 'the bottom line'. It's a financial term for those that can't see the wood for the tree's.

The sooner the UK can get it's trade deficit down and start reducing the National Debt, the sooner the likes of Red Ed et al can start getting their investment in public services back.

The Labour party fucked it up. They spent, not only every penny they took, they borrowed in a delusional belief they had 'abolished boom and bust' (how fucking stupid are these cunts?) and they mortgaged future generations livelihoods in PFI agreements.

Now, not only do they not admit where they went wrong mis-managing the economy, they want to borrow more to 'invest in Britain'.

Why, when the British economy was was running a surplus as opposed to deficit, just a decade ago, did they choose to not 'invest in Britain' but to expand the welfare state to unsustainable levels? Why? What on earth makes these fucking idiots believe that borrowing money to invest money has one iota of sense to it?  Anyone who has ever invested money on a serious level will tell you that it's nothing more than a 50%50 bet. Is that how our economy should be run, on the toss of a coin?
I have been trying to get that message across myself! well put.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Friday, April 3, 2015, 16:33:20
This thread is hilarious.

There's a bottom line in play. It's called 'the bottom line'. It's a financial term for those that can't see the wood for the tree's.

The sooner the UK can get it's trade deficit down and start reducing the National Debt, the sooner the likes of Red Ed et al can start getting their investment in public services back.

The Labour party fucked it up. They spent, not only every penny they took, they borrowed in a delusional belief they had 'abolished boom and bust' (how fucking stupid are these cunts?) and they mortgaged future generations livelihoods in PFI agreements.

Now, not only do they not admit where they went wrong mis-managing the economy, they want to borrow more to 'invest in Britain'.

Why, when the British economy was was running a surplus as opposed to deficit, just a decade ago, did they choose to not 'invest in Britain' but to expand the welfare state to unsustainable levels? Why?

What on earth makes these fucking idiots believe that borrowing money to invest money has one iota of sense to it?  Anyone who has ever invested money on a serious level will tell you that it's nothing more than a 50%50 bet.

Is that how our economy should be run, on the toss of a coin?

"The Labour party fucked it up.".... What is surprising about that. History will tell you they always do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 16:52:18
"The Labour party fucked it up.".... What is surprising about that. History will tell you they always do.

Sadly for Ironside, the Labour Party has been a bastion against the sort of political system that he favours....history tells you that.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 16:55:31
"The Labour party fucked it up.".... What is surprising about that. History will tell you they always do.
I know, anyone with of age knows it, anyone brought up through the 'Labour years' should be able to see it.  Yet some on here keep voting for them!


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 16:58:22
Sadly for Ironside, the Labour Party has been a bastion against the sort of political system that he favours....history tells you that.
Sadly for Reg, people aren't stupid enough to continue voting for the same old self destructive idiocy.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 17:30:52
Sadly for Reg, people aren't stupid enough to continue voting for the same old self destructive idiocy.

Are you still a BNP member or have you jumped ship to UKIP?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, April 3, 2015, 17:46:31
Quote from: Reg Smeeton
Quote
"The Labour party fucked it up.".... What is surprising about that. History will tell you they always do.
Sadly for Ironside, the Labour Party has been a bastion against the sort of political system that he favours....history tells you that.
has been..

Blair sold their soul to make them more electable. Kinnock was the last true labour leader, now they pay lip service to their old ideals.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 17:48:10
Are you still a BNP member or have you jumped ship to UKIP?
Would you care to engage in a debate about the issue and perhaps propose some soloutions? I think everyone would agree that this would be preferable as opposed to the 'you said this' kind of debate you appear to wish to engage in.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 18:17:03
Would you care to engage in a debate about the issue and perhaps propose some soloutions? I think everyone would agree that this would be preferable as opposed to the 'you said this' kind of debate you appear to wish to engage in.

I'm always up for a debate...what issue have you in mind?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, April 3, 2015, 18:17:47
Oh good.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 18:24:44
I'm always up for a debate...what issue have you in mind?
The economy?

Let's always remember that the last coalition government started from the perspective of that glorious note explaining that 'there's no money left'.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 18:33:40
The economy?

Let's always remember that the last coalition government started from the perspective of that glorious note explaining that 'there's no money left'.

Yes, not unexpected after we had to bail out the bankers and hedge fund operators after the 2008 global crash.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 18:45:47
Yes, not unexpected after we had to bail out the bankers and hedge fund operators after the 2008 global crash.
True. It's not even as if the British Government had some kind of contingency fund or something, you know, just in case their imaginary banishment of boom and bust might not have happened to be the case...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, April 3, 2015, 19:21:08
I know, anyone with of age knows it, anyone brought up through the 'Labour years' should be able to see it.  Yet some on here keep voting for them!
I was a kid during Thatcher's years. A kid on the breadline. Wearing clothes from jumble sales, my cousins passed on items and my mum going without meals so my siblings and I could eat. We were so poor as my mother fled the marital home due to an abusive husband. This was a house that she saved the deposit to buy and until leaving lived in a desirable part of town. From that point it was a harsh reality of living under a cruel and heartless Tory government. They are doing exactly the same thing now to people in a similar position and this is 30 odd years later. I will never vote for those bastards. Ever!


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 19:42:26
I was a kid during Thatcher's years. A kid on the breadline. Wearing clothes from jumble sales, my cousins passed on items and my mum going without meals so my siblings and I could eat. We were so poor as my mother fled the marital home due to an abusive husband. This was a house that she saved the deposit to buy and until leaving lived in a desirable part of town. From that point it was a harsh reality of living under a cruel and heartless Tory government. They are doing exactly the same thing now to people in a similar position and this is 30 odd years later. I will never vote for those bastards. Ever!
Yep. She's still dead and hasn't been in charge for 20 years. Any solutions you fancy putting forward or is it all a dead woman's fault?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, April 3, 2015, 19:46:53
Do immigrants take our jobs or fleece our benefits system?  Not sure which is the one I'm supposed to be angered by?

Banks - should they have been left to fold?  I think they probably should have been.  Would have wiped out a load of "savings" (investments really, and if your bank gambles it, that's the risk you take even if it is normally less risky than shares).

Social Housing - should we be building social housing stock rather than funding housing benefit?  It's a yes for me, investment in infrastructure equals jobs, reduced benefit reliance = reduced govt admin burden = equals reduced jobs, so it will al come our in the wash but it helps people.

Private housing - should it receive any kind of stimulus from governments?  Why should prices always go up?  Always ways onto the ladder, nobody makes people move into a house of their own or make them live in the South East.

Tax - should we remove taxation for anyone claiming benefits today, but also remove the benefits - why administer taking money and then giving it back?  I'd say so.  If I receive benefits while earning, why am I being taxed at the same time, equal them out.

Tax - should those earning more pay more, than they do today?  Yes.

There's a few "debates" to be had.  Unfortunately a party system makes these tough to combine, that's my problem with our democracy.  Let me vote for policies I want and maybe intelligent people to administer them?


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 19:47:40
I was a kid during Thatcher's years. A kid on the breadline. Wearing clothes from jumble sales, my cousins passed on items and my mum going without meals so my siblings and I could eat. We were so poor as my mother fled the marital home due to an abusive husband. This was a house that she saved the deposit to buy and until leaving lived in a desirable part of town. From that point it was a harsh reality of living under a cruel and heartless Tory government. They are doing exactly the same thing now to people in a similar position and this is 30 odd years later. I will never vote for those bastards. Ever!
Having read your post again, it's fair to say that your upbringing has less to do with Mrs T and more to do with an abusive and ultimately absent father.

Stop blaming someone else and take some responsibility for yourself.

Fucking loser.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, April 3, 2015, 19:48:35
Yep. She's still dead and hasn't been in charge for 20 years. Any solutions you fancy putting forward or is it all a dead woman's fault?
Well you were the one raking up history, seems fair to bring other controversial figures into the debate.

While we are on history, why do people who voted into Europe get so agitated by it?  The Rome Treaty clearly outlined the path it should take as an ideal - if you don't bother to read up on it, you take your chances.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 19:58:49
Do immigrants take our jobs or fleece our benefits system?  Not sure which is the one I'm supposed to be angered by?

Banks - should they have been left to fold?  I think they probably should have been.  Would have wiped out a load of "savings" (investments really, and if your bank gambles it, that's the risk you take even if it is normally less risky than shares).

Social Housing - should we be building social housing stock rather than funding housing benefit?  It's a yes for me, investment in infrastructure equals jobs, reduced benefit reliance = reduced govt admin burden = equals reduced jobs, so it will al come our in the wash but it helps people.

Private housing - should it receive any kind of stimulus from governments?  Why should prices always go up?  Always ways onto the ladder, nobody makes people move into a house of their own or make them live in the South East.

Tax - should we remove taxation for anyone claiming benefits today, but also remove the benefits - why administer taking money and then giving it back?  I'd say so.  If I receive benefits while earning, why am I being taxed at the same time, equal them out.

Tax - should those earning more pay more, than they do today?  Yes.

There's a few "debates" to be had.  Unfortunately a party system makes these tough to combine, that's my problem with our democracy.  Let me vote for policies I want and maybe intelligent people to administer them?

Unskilled immigrants take entry level employment opportunities from the native, partially skilled population and, when they come from an economy that has invested in education for their population, they leave that economy with a skills deficiency. When they arrive in a higher-wage economy, and consider themselves, and are considered by the government of that economy to be transient, they will have a negative effect on the wages of the existing population. The simple fact is that a transient workforce doesn't have the same commitments financially that the local population have.

Other than that, I broadly agree. There's a fucking suprise!


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:06:51
Yep. She's still dead and hasn't been in charge for 20 years. Any solutions you fancy putting forward or is it all a dead woman's fault?
the same thing is happening now. Different leader, same party.
Having read your post again, it's fair to say that your upbringing has less to do with Mrs T and more to do with an abusive and ultimately absent father.

Stop blaming someone else and take some responsibility for yourself.

Fucking loser.

My upbringing was great and full of love despite an absent father and my mum being skint. I'm not sure how a 4 year old could take responsibility?

Dunno how I'm a loser? Is it because I have a different view to you or because my mum got sick of being a punchbag and took herself and kids away from that situation?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:08:33
Well you were the one raking up history, seems fair to bring other controversial figures into the debate.

While we are on history, why do people who voted into Europe get so agitated by it?  The Rome Treaty clearly outlined the path it should take as an ideal - if you don't bother to read up on it, you take your chances.

Well the last referendum on Europe happened before most people who post on this forum were born. In fact, I'm almost 40 and my father wasn't even old enough to participate in that referendum.

That referendum incidentally was mis-sold. Everyone who was there at the time says so an they all agree they were blagged into an economic treaty which has since morphed into a political treaty.

It's about time the current generation asserted their rights, which as far as I'm concerned (and my father), means a vote.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:10:37
the same thing is happening now. Different leader, same party.
My upbringing was great and full of love despite an absent father and my mum being skint. I'm not sure how a 4 year old could take responsibility?

Dunno how I'm a loser? Is it because I have a different view to you or because my mum got sick of being a punchbag and took herself and kids away from that situation?
A four year old can't 'take responsibility'. A grown man, which you apparantly are can.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:11:43
Can we have a political thread that doesn't involve Ironside and Paul (Okay, not Paul at the moment, but I'm sure he's firing himself up...) posting text walls at eachother about how their side makes everyone free cakes and the other side punches babies please? It's tiresome and you're about as likely to change eachothers' minds as you are to turn into pumpkins.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:16:38
A four year old can't 'take responsibility'. A grown man, which you apparantly are can.
How am I not taking responsibility for myself currently then? I'd argue I am taking my responsibilities seriously enough and who are you to conclude I'm not, and how?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:23:23
Well the last referendum on Europe happened before most people who post on this forum were born. In fact, I'm almost 40 and my father wasn't even old enough to participate in that referendum.

That referendum incidentally was mis-sold. Everyone who was there at the time says so an they all agree they were blagged into an economic treaty which has since morphed into a political treaty.

It's about time the current generation asserted their rights, which as far as I'm concerned (and my father), means a vote.

I remember the last EU referendum, being in 1975...so your old man must have been very young.  At the time Labour was opposed to membership, after all it was the Tories who'd taken us in, under the much maligned by the Thatcherites, Edward Heath.

I thought of Heath just recently when in Salisbury, as he used to live on the Green, and there were always armed coppers, outside his house....of course no longer.  I digress, for me the thing with Heath, was that he'd fought in WW2 in Europe, and so had witnessed first hand, what happens when European powers do not co-operate. Churchill himself, had been an advocate of a European Union.

Labour opposed, as it was believed the EU would be a construct to the benefit of bankers and bosses, with working conditions suffering.  When this proved not to be the case that opposition dropped.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:25:26
Unskilled immigrants take entry level employment opportunities from the native, partially skilled population and, when they come from an economy that has invested in education for their population, they leave that economy with a skills deficiency. When they arrive in a higher-wage economy, and consider themselves, and are considered by the government of that economy to be transient, they will have a negative effect on the wages of the existing population. The simple fact is that a transient workforce doesn't have the same commitments financially that the local population have.

Other than that, I broadly agree. There's a fucking suprise!

I don't buy the immigrant thing - the jobs exist and we have unemployed people, they shouldn't have any jobs to come over to in that case.  I am all for forced employment - anyone worth their skilled salt can absorb a few months in a job they don't want while still seeking employment more befitting their skill level if that's their problem.  By forced I mean take a job that is on offer or lose the minimum level of benefit I talked about before.  Seek your own money in that event by self employment or live outside of the supportive society.

I'd reinvest much of the save money into proper job seeking skills - this is most likely the fundamental problem that immigrants are beating them on - they show willing, the right attitude, suggest they will be great employees.  I've recruited a lot of people and this is the real challenge.  I was shit at interviews despite thinking otherwise until I got made redundant and was given 3 months of coaching on CV & letter writing, interview training etc.

Oh and I'd either renationalise the rail network or at least make one company responsible for both the track and carriages for cut up sections.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:28:35
How am I not taking responsibility for myself currently then? I'd argue I am taking my responsibilities seriously enough and who are you to conclude I'm not, and how?
Having read Ironside's posts previously, can I politely suggest that you ignore him? He's proved himself in the past to be a racist, tiresome, angry little troll. It's probably something to do with not enough affection when he was a child, or something.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:30:07
I remember the last EU referendum, being in 1975...so your old man must have been very young.  At the time Labour was opposed to membership, after all it was the Tories who'd taken us in, under the much maligned by the Thatcherites, Edward Heath.

I thought of Heath just recently when in Salisbury, as he used to live on the Green, and there were always armed coppers, outside his house....of course no longer.  I digress, for me the thing with Heath, was that he'd fought in WW2 in Europe, and so had witnessed first hand, what happens when European powers do not co-operate. Churchill himself, had been an advocate of a European Union.

Labour opposed, as it was believed the EU would be a construct to the benefit of bankers and bosses, with working conditions suffering.  When this proved not to be the case that opposition dropped.

In or Out Reg?  I'm all for it, in fact I'd give up the Pound, but I know my view is probably the minority.  Alongside it, you probably need less National Govt structures and more regional set-ups to make it fully work.  I accept the likely long term end is out, then back in, sort of, and so on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:34:03
Can we have a political thread that doesn't involve Ironside and Paul (Okay, not Paul at the moment, but I'm sure he's firing himself up...) posting text walls at eachother about how their side makes everyone free cakes and the other side punches babies please? It's tiresome and you're about as likely to change eachothers' minds as you are to turn into pumpkins.

Ironside...Baby Punching Party. 1

Davis.....Free Cake Party. 23,869.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:34:12
How am I not taking responsibility for myself currently then? I'd argue I am taking my responsibilities seriously enough and who are you to conclude I'm not, and how?
Well, you have blind hatred for Thatcher, who hasn't been Prime Minister for over 25 years, keep blaming her for everything. Full stop. It's all her fault. It's pretty weird when you think about it, I mean, you were only '4 years old'.

Still, you've declared yourself for Labour earlier in this thread and elsewhere on here, which is fair enough because it's not as if you've even actually thought about it, researched the facts, and drawn an informed conclusion to base your allegiance on, is it? It's clear, based on your post's, you're a tribal voter and not a considered voter.

Do you have constructive proposals or solutions to the very real problems facing this country?


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:36:34
I remember the last EU referendum, being in 1975...so your old man must have been very young.  At the time Labour was opposed to membership, after all it was the Tories who'd taken us in, under the much maligned by the Thatcherites, Edward Heath.

I thought of Heath just recently when in Salisbury, as he used to live on the Green, and there were always armed coppers, outside his house....of course no longer.  I digress, for me the thing with Heath, was that he'd fought in WW2 in Europe, and so had witnessed first hand, what happens when European powers do not co-operate. Churchill himself, had been an advocate of a European Union.

Labour opposed, as it was believed the EU would be a construct to the benefit of bankers and bosses, with working conditions suffering.  When this proved not to be the case that opposition dropped.

He informes me he missed the cut by 6 weeks and 3 days.

The rest of that post is irrelevant and superfluous.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:36:48
In or Out Reg?  I'm all for it, in fact I'd give up the Pound, but I know my view is probably the minority.  Alongside it, you probably need less National Govt structures and more regional set-ups to make it fully work.  I accept the likely long term end is out, then back in, sort of, and so on.

I'm in. Definitely a case for reform, as it's not perfect.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:47:21
Well, you have blind hatred for Thatcher, who hasn't been Prime Minister for over 25 years, keep blaming her for everything. Full stop. It's all her fault. It's pretty weird when you think about it, I mean, you were only '4 years old'.

Still, you've declared yourself for Labour earlier in this thread and elsewhere on here, which is fair enough because it's not as if you've even actually thought about it, researched the facts, and drawn an informed conclusion to base your allegiance on, is it? It's clear, based on your post's, you're a tribal voter and not a considered voter.

Do you have constructive proposals or solutions to the very real problems facing this country?
Herthab has it right. Pointless debating with you. Your inaccurate conclusions about me and abuse mean we can't really go anywhere with this can we?


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 21:05:38
Herthab has it right. Pointless debating with you. Your inaccurate conclusions about me and abuse mean we can't really go anywhere with this can we?
Why did you give us your sob-story and not answer any of the questions I posed in my post then?


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, April 3, 2015, 21:14:11
Why did you give us your sob-story and not answer any of the questions I posed in my post then?
Sob story? Nah mate just a life experience.
I answered the first question you asked. I then asked you some questions which you ignored, so why should I continue to answer questions for you? particularly when you've been deliberately insulting and made some ridiculous conclusions that mean whatever I say is irrelevant anyway.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 22:08:46
Sob story? Nah mate just a life experience.
I answered the first question you asked. I then asked you some questions which you ignored, so why should I continue to answer questions for you? particularly when you've been deliberately insulting and made some ridiculous conclusions that mean whatever I say is irrelevant anyway.

Yep, sob story, it's all Maggie's fault.

The only question's you asked we're relevant to my criticism of you and not  relevant to the question of the wellbeing of the economy which, as I made clear in my original post, is the bottom line.

How about giving us some solutions instead of bleating on about how hard done you are? Which party do you think provide a solution and why?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, April 3, 2015, 22:58:36
It's funny people putting Thatcher down and saying they'd never vote for the Tories. Fact is that the main thrust of Thatcher's polices have now become the norm and adopted by Labour as much as the Tories - low personal taxes, a reduced state, privatisation for example. The current Labour party are as much a relation to the Thatcher Tory era as the current Tories are.

As regards the migrant worker debate. My experience is that migrant workers (especially those from Eastern Europe) work harder, don't moan and don't take the piss like their British counterparts do. The problem isn't the migrant workers, it's the British workers who need to stop relying on everything being handed to them on a plate and do some proper hard work instead.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 00:49:48
We've got a pretty high number of eastern Europeans in our area,  considering we're in the middle of the countryside,  and frankly there are zero problems with them.  They work their arses off and I would be highly surprised if they are a meaningful percentage of people who claim benefits.

Yes there are people who take the piss.  But they always exist no matter what their nationality is. I could name two dozen or so 'native brits' who do fuck all work and yet are always in the pub buying ten or twelve pints on a regular basis. What fucks me off is that I, and others like me are working out collective arses off serving them , and part of my wage is essentially going to fund their habit. I don't see why in this day and age benefits (universal as they now are)  couldn't be stuck on a card of some description that won't accept a transaction including non-essentials. The dole is there to pay the rent and put food in people's mouths, not to buy them fags and booze.

I have been on the dole and I am happy to pay back into it now I'm making some half-decent money. The benefits system and the NHS are both brilliant things that need protecting. Reform,  probably, but protection,  definitely.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: otanswell on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 06:33:07
Well that debate was crap, wasn't it.

The only moment of any interest was Farage deciding to have a go at foreign people with AIDS. Those evil bastards.

That was hilarious. If your foreign and have AIDS fuck off back to where you come from, he's right in a sense to be honest


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 07:26:34
How much a year is lost to the country through benefit fraud? How much is lost through tax loopholes for big business? Both should be addressed, but why is the main focus on the first one?

Jonny is right in the sense that Thatcher's legacy has been widespread and affected not only her own party. That doesn't make it a good thing though. Take privatisation of essential services; how many of those have been improved because of it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 07:57:23
How much a year is lost to the country through benefit fraud? How much is lost through tax loopholes for big business?

Remember some figures saw the other day 1.2 billion v 102 billion ( in that range ) but as the larger amount is from the Tories cronies you know which one is chased.
Also the figure for unclaimed benefits is amazingly huge as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 08:52:55
How much a year is lost to the country through benefit fraud? How much is lost through tax loopholes for big business? Both should be addressed, but why is the main focus on the first one?

Jonny is right in the sense that Thatcher's legacy has been widespread and affected not only her own party. That doesn't make it a good thing though. Take privatisation of essential services; how many of those have been improved because of it?


Pretty much all I reckon. Plus they pay their way and contribute tax into the system rather than being dependent on tax bailouts that were the norm before they were privatised. You must bare in mind and remember that any investment into a business either via a tax handout or by private means (share issues, loans or owners own cash) demands a return in productivity and profitability, which the unions always fought tooth and nail over, that's why this country got overtaken in the 60's, 70's & 80's.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 09:14:14
I have no issue with privatisation, but the regulators are toothless.  Have things improved - yes, because huge investment has been made.  Now look at why the investment is being made:

Capital investment is an allowable tax offset, so investing reduces tax burdens allowing profits to be made and then distributed to shareholders in higher %'s.  Sort of ok with that, but....

The companies often loan themselves the money for the capital projects through offshore companies they own, Cayman Islands being the norm.  They charge interest, which is also offset against profits to wipe out the tax burden.  The interest is paid to themselves in an offshore company making billions which is not subject to any taxation.  We pay for it in rising prices.

It's this that winds me up about privatised companies.  Also you get Gas and Electric providers bemoaning the wholesale price of Gas but they sell it to themselves as they generally own the entire chain.

A little more thought about why the service is being provided and you can could come to a much more equitable set-up.  A company driven to make profit is likely to innovate, but it shouldn't have such carte blanche to print money like they have now.

Basically, the system today over rewards capital investment meaning we get improvements, but not at a good rate of return for us as the general public.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 09:21:03
Oh and I'd add it probably isn't much use in a complete monopoly market.

Gas and Electric can compete against each other, sort of
Trains have other forms of transport to compete with
BT - wide market, especially once mobile came about
Water - utter nuts, and I worked in it!

Now that's not to say a private company cannot be used in Water, but it should be heavily geared towards public provision.

NHS - not a chance in hell.  One of the great ideas of recent history and private companies should be kept well away.  Self interested drug companies have no place in the provision of service.  Allow competitive purchasing power, but this should remain completely in some for of government control.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 09:27:03
Here's an example of the home building policy I was against earlier:

https://www.gov.uk/government/policies/increasing-the-number-of-available-homes/supporting-pages/empty-homes

If people want a home, they exist.  They have already been built.  If people are hard-up and need support, social housing should be designed to sort that problem out, but I really don't understand why we seem intent on making housing a commodity and then support everyone to buy them? especially when we don't really need the extra 200k houses all the main parties seem to be committing to.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 13:57:46
How much a year is lost to the country through benefit fraud? How much is lost through tax loopholes for big business? Both should be addressed, but why is the main focus on the first one?

Jonny is right in the sense that Thatcher's legacy has been widespread and affected not only her own party. That doesn't make it a good thing though. Take privatisation of essential services; how many of those have been improved because of it?

How much is created by benefit fraud and how much is created via the loopholes you have a problem with?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 14:06:20
We've got a pretty high number of eastern Europeans in our area,  considering we're in the middle of the countryside,  and frankly there are zero problems with them.  They work their arses off and I would be highly surprised if they are a meaningful percentage of people who claim benefits.

Yes there are people who take the piss.  But they always exist no matter what their nationality is. I could name two dozen or so 'native brits' who do fuck all work and yet are always in the pub buying ten or twelve pints on a regular basis. What fucks me off is that I, and others like me are working out collective arses off serving them , and part of my wage is essentially going to fund their habit. I don't see why in this day and age benefits (universal as they now are)  couldn't be stuck on a card of some description that won't accept a transaction including non-essentials. The dole is there to pay the rent and put food in people's mouths, not to buy them fags and booze.

I have been on the dole and I am happy to pay back into it now I'm making some half-decent money. The benefits system and the NHS are both brilliant things that need protecting. Reform,  probably, but protection,  definitely.
Eastern Europeans aren't the problem though, are they?

The problem is not where people come from. The problem is how many of them come here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 14:19:51
How much is created by benefit fraud and how much is created via the loopholes you have a problem with?

I gave up about ten years ago trying to debate this sort of thing, as I could see it was futile. I'd just like to make one point, and that is it serves the interests of those at the top if everyone else blames each other, because it allows them to keep taking the food from our tables unnoticed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 14:25:28
Pretty much all I reckon. Plus they pay their way and contribute tax into the system rather than being dependent on tax bailouts that were the norm before they were privatised. You must bare in mind and remember that any investment into a business either via a tax handout or by private means (share issues, loans or owners own cash) demands a return in productivity and profitability, which the unions always fought tooth and nail over, that's why this country got overtaken in the 60's, 70's & 80's.

What improvements have there been to the previously public services? I struggle to see them. I do see an unfit for purpose and expensive train network still propped up by the tax payer. Utilities companies confusing their customers and often ripping them off on high tariffs whilst recording huge profits too.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 15:17:05
What improvements have there been to the previously public services? I struggle to see them. I do see an unfit for purpose and expensive train network still propped up by the tax payer. Utilities companies confusing their customers and often ripping them off on high tariffs whilst recording huge profits too.

Blah blah fucking blah. The best improvement to public services would be to cull 50% of them, mainly desk jockey's and the money diverted to the front line.

Red Ed's pronouncement about price controls was fucking retarded and only served to increase prices. Almost immediately in fact.

The answer is not to impose controls, but to encourage people to invest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 16:29:57
What improvements have there been to the previously public services? I struggle to see them. I do see an unfit for purpose and expensive train network still propped up by the tax payer. Utilities companies confusing their customers and often ripping them off on high tariffs whilst recording huge profits too.

Decades of underinvestment means years and years of reinvestment. The tax payer now pays less and less in subsidies each year my dear fellow. The rail companies and infrastructure are miles better than they used to be but still need more investment. You clearly are not old enough to remember shit service shit rolling stock that BR under ASLEF & NUR dictatorship used to laughingly call a a service.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 16:42:15
Decades of underinvestment means years and years of reinvestment. The tax payer now pays less and less in subsidies each year my dear fellow. The rail companies and infrastructure are miles better than they used to be but still need more investment. You clearly are not old enough to remember shit service shit rolling stock that BR under ASLEF & NUR dictatorship used to laughingly call a a service.
years and years of investment needed regardless of it being publicly owned or private. We're still paying for it though aren't we? If subsidies are down then is this being coupled with increased ticket prices which are extortionate. So still paying really?
 Yep, I am not old enough to remember the times you mention. That was then though, not now. People generally have nothing but complaints regarding rail travel. I don't see how privatised services have improved for their sales.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 16:45:50
Decades of underinvestment means years and years of reinvestment. The tax payer now pays less and less in subsidies each year my dear fellow. The rail companies and infrastructure are miles better than they used to be but still need more investment. You clearly are not old enough to remember shit service shit rolling stock that BR under ASLEF & NUR dictatorship used to laughingly call a a service.
'the tax payer now pays less and less in subsidies each year'. Maybe, but we pay more and more for the services. And fat cats are now getting richer than they already were from services that the state used to own and control, albeit not always as well as they could.
Oh, one other thing. I don't mind being insulted (I'm used to it) but I'd be grateful if you could keep the patronising out of your posts. There's a good girl.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 16:51:24
How much is created by benefit fraud and how much is created via the loopholes you have a problem with?
What an amoral question (hardly surprising, given the source). I'm not talking about penalising big business, or increasing corporation tax, merely closing the loopholes that allow them to fleece this country out of tax they should be paying. I can't understand how anybody, apart from those few benefiting from this, can possibly defend it.
But yeah, much easier to target those on benefit, or immigrants.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 16:56:40
 I see there's been a leak, that Sturgeon has said the SNP want a Tory victory, as this will hasten Sweatie independence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 17:15:58
I see there's been a leak, that Sturgeon has said the SNP want a Tory victory, as this will hasten Sweatie independence.

Expect a lot better from you Reg. Telegraph report on a 'leak' that Sturgeon and the French ambassador deny. Sturgeon and the French denied this last night, around 30 mins after the telegraph made up the story, yet the media have ran with it any way all day. Labour supporters  seem to be happy to repeat the lies just to try and score a point.

Truth is labour jumping on this has yet again backfired in their fight v SNP, at this rate they'll be wiped out in Scotland. SNP are going to take some stopping now.

Propaganda at its finest, disappointing to see people like Reg swallow this kind of shit and repeat in such a manner.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 17:26:20
There isn't anyone to stop the SNP this time.  They're the only party in Scotland with any real credibility at this election.  The speed with which the Labour vote up here has collapsed is breath-taking.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 17:33:48
There isn't anyone to stop the SNP this time.  They're the only party in Scotland with any real credibility at this election.  The speed with which the Labour vote up here has collapsed is breath-taking.

And the great thing is it's all labour's own doing! Getting into bed with the Tories, and the overly negative fear ongoing Bitter together campaign. They're fucked up there, hopefully for good. Good luck to Sturgeon, she's stepped up to the plate well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 17:44:37
Must admit, I don't really understand the loathing of Labour for working with the Tories on securing the No vote.  Politicians are often accused of being disingenuous and taking an opposing position for the sake of it.  But when there is a genuine cause that they agree on (in this case, preserving the union), Labour get flamed for fighting for what they believed in.  Should they have fought for a Yes vote just because the Tories wanted a No?

I do agree with you that the tone of the No campaign was all wrong.  Still do not understand why the No side did such a bad job of setting oyt (or didn't even bother to set out) a positive message for remaining in the UK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 17:57:33
hope over fear. The No campaign just used scare tactics, it'll live long in the memories up there. Not sure how Labour will recover. Murphy's a complete bellend, Miliband well what can you say, knob jockey. And SNP are playing a blinder. Soon to be playing that blinder at WM I expect.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 18:28:17
The snp and plaid cymru will appeal to their respective voters so are bound to do well in their countries. Apart from the comical bnp what do English people have that appeals solely to them as English citizens?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 18:36:38
I wonder, as stupid as it sounds, if there could be an English offshoot of the SNP, like a devolution for all kind of party. One of the problems the SNP Scots have with Labour is the way Labour are trying to make the SNP out to be like a Scottish BNP, which they're not, they just want to be able to look after themselves. The whole armed guards on the border, messy divorce picture painted by Bitter Together has led to this.

Could be a hell of a game changer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 19:04:49
Devolution for all has to be the way if the UK is going to continue.  The assymetry in arrangements for each of the UK nations is currently pulling it apart at the seams.  The English have, up until now, been fairly lukewarm to the idea of English devolution.  But those in England who would like to stay in the UK are probably realising it needs to happen now in some form.

Quite like the idea of a federal UK myself.  And the Lib Dems are keen on it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 19:27:00
hope over fear. The No campaign just used scare tactics, it'll live long in the memories up there. Not sure how Labour will recover. Murphy's a complete bellend, Miliband well what can you say, knob jockey. And SNP are playing a blinder. Soon to be playing that blinder at WM I expect.
Scots dodged a bullet there, the Picses, duo (Salmond & Sturgeon) have quietly dropped the fact that they would be financially fucked with the drop in the cost of North Sea oil, strange that eh?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 20:07:40
What an amoral question (hardly surprising, given the source). I'm not talking about penalising big business, or increasing corporation tax, merely closing the loopholes that allow them to fleece this country out of tax they should be paying. I can't understand how anybody, apart from those few benefiting from this, can possibly defend it.
But yeah, much easier to target those on benefit, or immigrants.
Amoral? Are you fucking serious or are you retarded?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 20:58:48
Ironside, just out of interest, does your tag line of "we must exterminate the Jews Liberals also reflect your political leanings at all?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 21:01:05
amoral
eɪˈmɒr(ə)l/
adjective
lacking a moral sense; unconcerned with the rightness or wrongness of something.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 21:03:05
Ah TEF political season.

Roll on election day.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 21:03:35
Ironside, just out of interest, does your tag line of "we must exterminate the Jews" also reflect your political leanings at all?
It doesn't say that - it says Liberals, not Jews. But he's BNP, so broadly in that direction yes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 21:21:08
Ah TEF political season.

Roll on election day.
I'm finding it a welcome distraction from thinking of today's events....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 21:53:04
Ironside, just out of interest, does your tag line of "we must exterminate the Jews Liberals also reflect your political leanings at all?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3IV6v89gqg


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 08:45:35
Scots dodged a bullet there, the Picses, duo (Salmond & Sturgeon) have quietly dropped the fact that they would be financially fucked with the drop in the cost of North Sea oil, strange that eh?

Source please, I haven't read that.

And the Scots wouldn't be 'financially fucked', as if it had been a yes, they wouldn't even be independent yet. That's my understanding of the timescales involved, I could be wrong on that though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 09:06:34
Source please, I haven't read that.

And the Scots wouldn't be 'financially fucked', as if it had been a yes, they wouldn't even be independent yet. That's my understanding of the timescales involved, I could be wrong on that though.

A large chunk of the yes campaigns stratagem involved the revenue that North Sea oil & natural gas for that matter would bring in, fact. The price of a barrel of Brent crude peaked @ $120 + in November 2011 & fluctuated to just under $120 until the second half of 2014, luckily for the Pisces duo the collapse in the oil markets came after the vote. The current price of Brent crude is $60 per barrel the other, natural gas has also seen a slump in price. Would you like me to show you those spot prices too? Other than tourism and whiskey what else would they have to flog to pay their way, coal?

Trident could be relocated, after all the SNP and labour would like us to stick our hands up and surrender at the first sign of homeland trouble. The EUSSR were saying you're not joining if you go it alone and you're also not having the wonderful overpriced Euro to boot. Remains open to conjecture if that would have been the case. In any case if they had said yes they could consider themselves unlucky in the respect that they went from the frying pan into the per-verbal fire.

Personally I wish the jocks had said yes....... :D

The Taffs & the N. Paddy's on the other hand know which side the bread is buttered, even then they both think Westminster should throw more cash at them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 09:15:28
A large chunk of the yes campaigns stratagem involved the revenue that North Sea oil & natural gas for that matter would bring in, fact. The price of a barrel of Brent crude peaked @ $120 + in November 2011 & fluctuated to just under $120 until the second half of 2014, luckily for the Pisces duo the collapse in the oil markets came after the vote. The current price of Brent crude is $60 per barrel the other, natural gas has also seen a slump in price. Would you like me to show you those spot prices too? Other than tourism and whiskey what else would they have to flog to pay their way, coal?

Trident could be relocated, after all the SNP and labour would like us to stick our hands up and surrender at the first sign of homeland trouble. The EUSSR were saying you're not joining if you go it alone and you're also not having the wonderful overpriced Euro to boot. Remains open to conjecture if that would have been the case. In any case if they had said yes they could consider themselves unlucky in the respect that they went from the frying pan into the per-verbal fire.

Personally I wish the jocks had said yes....... :D

The Taffs & the N. Paddy's on the other hand know which side the bread is buttered, even then they both think Westminster should throw more cash at them.

Understand that, however, you've stated that Salmond and sturgeon have come out saying Scotland would be financially fucked if they had voted yes. Can you provide a source for that please?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 09:45:12
BBC reporter tweeting he's been abused for reporting that snp members had made comments to him that were the same as those attributed to its leader. No smoke without fire it would appear.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 09:47:05
Understand that, however, you've stated that Salmond and sturgeon have come out saying Scotland would be financially fucked if they had voted yes. Can you provide a source for that please?

Sorry if you got that impression, maybe we did not read each other's posts properly. I'm saying that the duo have remained silent since the vote WRT the financial aspect of their campaign. That being how they would survive financially without Westminster funding when the largest part of Scotland's income came from oil & gas which as I've stated has collapsed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 10:04:21
I obviously don't know as much as some of the learned posters on here, regarding Scottish independence, however as all the main parties in the UK joined together to campaign for them to stay, they must feel that Scotland is an important and integral part of it. as to whether Scotland could survive on their own, it's pretty silly to spout the same old bollocks about North Sea oil, as if that's the only thing they could use. there's many countries with little or no natural resources that survive and even thrive.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 10:20:48
Let's not forget the huge oil find they made in the Falklands this week. Cue the Argentines ramping up their efforts to get them back again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 11:46:21
Quite like the idea of a federal UK myself.  And the Lib Dems are keen on it.

Me too. Seems to be the perfect solution, we'd still be the UK but each state would have the control they want.

And the Scots wouldn't be 'financially fucked', as if it had been a yes, they wouldn't even be independent yet. That's my understanding of the timescales involved, I could be wrong on that though.

There was one senior member of the SNP campaign who genuinely believed devolution could have been achieved prior to the general election. Which is another good example of just how deluded the SNP are.

It's pretty silly to spout the same old bollocks about North Sea oil, as if that's the only thing they could use. there's many countries with little or no natural resources that survive and even thrive.

A large part of the SNP campaign was how they would be better off financially if independent. Their increased financial wealth was based solely on the price of oil and gas. IIRC the SNP used a price of $100USD a barrel, there was a lot of debate about the price going forward with the SNP claiming all the industry experts saying this was a realistic price.

If they were independent now, they would indeed by totally fucked financially due to the reliance on high oil prices. And if they'd got their way of continuing to use a shared currency, who do you think would now be stuck with bailing them out?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Down on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 13:10:42
Back to politics local to Swindon. Can we campaign to get that giant puddle in the CG car park next to the Town's shop to be fixed?! My feet get wet everytimes its rains.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 13:14:58
Back to politics local to Swindon. Can we campaign to get that giant puddle in the CG car park next to the Town's shop to be fixed?! My feet get wet everytimes its rains.

Vote Down!

In fact.... Up down!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 16:34:05
I'm in. Definitely a case for reform, as it's not perfect.

Out of interest what would be your proposals for reforming the EU?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 17:39:54
Out,.Cameron will get fuck all if he has a mandate to "negotiate", Wallace even less if he tries but of course he won't as it is not on his agenda and even less so the SNP & Limpdens who's support he'll need. The only way we will get what we need as in the British interest is to walk away and make no mistake they AKA the other 26 nations will shit themselves if we do. Oh they love the British, no, they all love our money and obsessiveness in abiding by the rules which most of them ignore. Once out we can name our price to go back should A) there still be an EU to go back to & B) should we need to.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 19:28:44
BBC reporter tweeting he's been abused for reporting that snp members had made comments to him that were the same as those attributed to its leader. No smoke without fire it would appear.

The bbc haven't exactly covered themselves in glory re:Scotland of late. And so what if 'SNP members' have expressed that view, not all members will agree on everything.

Roll on May, hoping we have a Tory government but if not it'll be interesting to see the SNP shake up WM a fair bit. Sturgeon's a class act and the media will have to up their smear game if they want shot of her.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: OrangeTransits on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 21:17:25
Out,.Cameron will get fuck all if he has a mandate to "negotiate", Wallace even less if he tries but of course he won't as it is not on his agenda and even less so the SNP & Limpdens who's support he'll need. The only way we will get what we need as in the British interest is to walk away and make no mistake they AKA the other 26 nations will shit themselves if we do. Oh they love the British, no, they all love our money and obsessiveness in abiding by the rules which most of them ignore. Once out we can name our price to go back should A) there still be an EU to go back to & B) should we need to.

Spot on.... Only party offering this is UKIP. I know there not everyone's cup of tea. Time for change. Farage at least says it how it is. Most of the time. He's a bit rough round the edges but that is his appeal to the masses I guess. The more he puts his foot in it the higher his rating go. He's only human like the rest of us. Political correctness has knocked most English people into believing displaying our own flag on our own Patron Saints day is Racist. Fucking madness.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 21:46:55
Hmmmmm, maybe it's the fact he thinks the country should be worried about people coming here to get their AIDS fixed is the policy that has me despairing?

We've got a nuclear deterrent for fucks sake, I'd rather Raving Lord Such got in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Monday, April 6, 2015, 12:19:17
Out,.Cameron will get fuck all if he has a mandate to "negotiate", Wallace even less if he tries but of course he won't as it is not on his agenda and even less so the SNP & Limpdens who's support he'll need. The only way we will get what we need as in the British interest is to walk away and make no mistake they AKA the other 26 nations will shit themselves if we do. Oh they love the British, no, they all love our money and obsessiveness in abiding by the rules which most of them ignore. Once out we can name our price to go back should A) there still be an EU to go back to & B) should we need to.

Can someone explain why we need to leave the EU and what the benefits of doing so are?

Think a lot of people just take everything Farage says, especially regarding the cost of the EU and migrant workers, at face value when the facts are somewhat different. I'm yet to read or see anything that makes a convincing argument for us to leave.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, April 6, 2015, 12:34:56
And I'm yet to read a convincing argument to stay. Facts in politics are what you make of them. Everyone will take anything that supports their stance and it then becomes fact.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: OrangeTransits on Monday, April 6, 2015, 12:44:44
You can only judge an organisation when you know what it was set-up for. Most people talk about the EU in terms of economics, but it was never set-up for that purpose. The European Union was set-up to prevent another war in Europe.

The EU is a front for German-based economic imperialism-- sucking value from the peripheral states into its centre and flattening all with the IMF in the one hand and required NATO arms purchases in the other. Poor Ukraine
is only the latest butterfly to be lured into the Venus Trap for Brussels/Berlin/Frankfurt digestion.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Monday, April 6, 2015, 13:43:19
Ironside, just out of interest, does your tag line of "we must exterminate the Jews Liberals also reflect your political leanings at all?
That was placed by FlammableBen or whatever his name is now and has nothing to do with me, nor does it reflect my views.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Monday, April 6, 2015, 13:44:45
amoral
eɪˈmɒr(ə)l/
adjective
lacking a moral sense; unconcerned with the rightness or wrongness of something.
Cheers for dictionary reference.  Who the fucking hell are you to dictate my morals?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Monday, April 6, 2015, 14:38:38
Cheers for dictionary reference.  Who the fucking hell are you to dictate my morals?
I don't believe I've dictated anything. Highlighted a lack maybe, but not dictated....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 6, 2015, 15:07:53
I don't believe I've dictated anything. Highlighted a lack maybe, but not dictated....

I always thought Ironside liked Dictators...he must be going soft in his old age.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Monday, April 6, 2015, 15:57:52
I always thought Ironside liked Dictators...he must be going soft in his old age.
Not only are you going soft, you are clearly going mental.

Still, nobody addresses the points made, but they attack the person making the points...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Monday, April 6, 2015, 18:04:03
Come on for fucks sake.

We have so many gobshites here who consistently fail to address problems but bitch about anyone who raises them, you would think we have a PM in the making!

Give me solutions, not stupidity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: stfc1975 on Monday, April 6, 2015, 18:22:24
Come on for fucks sake.

We have so many gobshites here who consistently fail to address problems but bitch about anyone who raises them, you would think we have a PM in the making!

Give me solutions, not stupidity.

E=mc2


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Monday, April 6, 2015, 18:28:47
E=mc2
Well done, however that poses a question not a solution. Or does it?...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: stfc1975 on Monday, April 6, 2015, 18:30:48
Well done, however that poses a question not a solution. Or does it?...

It's all relative


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Monday, April 6, 2015, 18:46:15
It's all relative
So they say. I'm yet to be convinced...


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: stfc1975 on Monday, April 6, 2015, 18:54:25
[quotThe  uthor=Ironside link=topic=55431.msg1320605#msg1320605 date=1428345975]
So they say. I'm yet to be convinced...
[/quote]

.... The truth is out there........ somewhere.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, April 6, 2015, 19:41:40
Come on for fucks sake.

We have so many gobshites here who consistently fail to address problems but bitch about anyone who raises them, you would think we have a PM in the making!

Give me solutions, not stupidity.
Maybe if you weren't such an unpleasant twat people may engage with you more?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Monday, April 6, 2015, 20:09:59
Without being diverted on petty tit for tat comments, my point was: There's a bottom line in play. It's called 'the bottom line'. It's a financial term for those that can't see the wood for the tree's.

The sooner the UK can get it's trade deficit down and start reducing the National Debt, the sooner the likes of Red Ed et al can start getting their investment in public services back.

The Labour party fucked it up. They spent, not only every penny they took, they borrowed in a delusional belief they had 'abolished boom and bust' (how fucking stupid are these cunts?) and they mortgaged future generations livelihoods in PFI agreements.

Now, not only do they not admit where they went wrong mis-managing the economy, they want to borrow more to 'invest in Britain'.

Why, when the British economy was was running a surplus as opposed to deficit, just a decade ago, did they choose to not 'invest in Britain' but to expand the welfare state to unsustainable levels? Why?

What on earth makes these fucking idiots believe that borrowing money to invest money has one iota of sense to it?  Anyone who has ever invested money on a serious level will tell you that it's nothing more than a 50%50 bet.

Is that how our economy should be run, on the toss of a coin?

How about dealing with those points instead of being little b
itches an getting you knickers in a twist over the delivery?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Monday, April 6, 2015, 20:53:58
Maybe if you weren't such an unpleasant twat people may engage with you more?
Arriba, you have constantly complained but offered no solutions. Come on, tell us all how you're going to solve the country's problems, particularly the financial ones. I would love to hear it.

Here's a few questions that you can answer:

1) If you have a massive debt, what is your plan to deal with this? Are you going to borrow more, that you can't afford or are you going to get your spending in order, or are you going to choose bankruptcy?

2) If you can't afford services at home, do you think it's sensible to give £12b a year away? Or is it more appropriate to reduce A&E instead? Which of the two should be reduced? £12b abroad, or £8b making up the shortfall the NHS is going to have over the course of the next 5 years?

3) Despite almost 13 years of a 40% higher tax rate, bar 2 months prior to The last election when it was raised b to 50%, followed by a reduction to 45%, are you clever enough to work out which regime was the most accommodating to big business?

4) Labour expanded the welfare state to the extent that people who get off their arses, and graft all week, are condemned to a maximum wage. It's a maximum wage and Labour made it so. They decided to give people 'in work credits' and actively supported and encouraged a low wage economy. Labour fucking hate you. Look at their front bench, and look at their leader.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: stfc1975 on Monday, April 6, 2015, 22:28:19
I love the fact you are the same age as me.  Thought you would of been older(not a criticism)

As has been said  opinons are like arseholes ..etc etc etc. I know its a debate. But no
Ones gonna win.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, April 8, 2015, 20:58:46
If we could park the dull personal abuse briefly, let's all marvel in the bizarre reflected glory of the Green election broadcast

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PPgS7p40ERg&feature=youtu.be

What the actual fuck.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, April 9, 2015, 08:28:38
It's all relative

That's the theory.

Ironside, which side of the fence are you on? :sherlock:


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 10, 2015, 16:04:44
That's the theory.

Ironside, which side of the fence are you on? :sherlock:
The right side, obviously...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Friday, April 10, 2015, 16:12:11
Arriba, you have constantly complained but offered no solutions. Come on, tell us all how you're going to solve the country's problems, particularly the financial ones. I would love to hear it.

Here's a few questions that you can answer:

1) If you have a massive debt, what is your plan to deal with this? Are you going to borrow more, that you can't afford or are you going to get your spending in order, or are you going to choose bankruptcy?

2) If you can't afford services at home, do you think it's sensible to give £12b a year away? Or is it more appropriate to reduce A&E instead? Which of the two should be reduced? £12b abroad, or £8b making up the shortfall the NHS is going to have over the course of the next 5 years?

3) Despite almost 13 years of a 40% higher tax rate, bar 2 months prior to The last election when it was raised b to 50%, followed by a reduction to 45%, are you clever enough to work out which regime was the most accommodating to big business?

4) Labour expanded the welfare state to the extent that people who get off their arses, and graft all week, are condemned to a maximum wage. It's a maximum wage and Labour made it so. They decided to give people 'in work credits' and actively supported and encouraged a low wage economy. Labour fucking hate you. Look at their front bench, and look at their leader.

Your 1st point - who has got the country more in debt? Try looking at this http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_debt_chart.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Friday, April 10, 2015, 16:17:02
If we could park the dull personal abuse briefly, let's all marvel in the bizarre reflected glory of the Green election broadcast

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PPgS7p40ERg&feature=youtu.be

What the actual fuck.
I had to turn over when this was on - I felt embarrassed watching it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ExiledEric on Friday, April 10, 2015, 16:36:17

Christ, they are serious I think. 


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 10, 2015, 16:37:10
Your 1st point - who has got the country more in debt? Try looking at this http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_debt_chart.html
Labour. The Labour party had 13 years to reduce national debt, didn't and then when the economy went kaput, had zero reserves to deal with it. I've already explained, they mortgaged the country to the eyeballs (they even left a note saying the country was skint). Increased the national debt and expanded the welfare state to unsustainable levels.

It took them 13 years to bring the country to it's knees and some people think that the current government are responsible for the state of public finances, but that they should have been sorted out in five years. It's just bizarre to be honest with you, especially considering the Tories have been hamstrung by being in a coalition with the Liberal Democrats.

I've pretty much decided that the vast majority of people in the UK have some kind of mental deficiency when it comes to financial management, whether that be on a national or personal level. The National and personal debt levels support that assertion.

Despite that, some people seem to think that Labour are a good idea for the next government!


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Friday, April 10, 2015, 16:49:48
Labour. The Labour party had 13 years to reduce national debt, didn't and then when the economy went kaput, had zero reserves to deal with it. I've already explained, they mortgaged the country to the eyeballs (they even left a note saying the country was skint). Increased the national debt and expanded the welfare state to unsustainable levels.

It took them 13 years to bring the country to it's knees and some people think that the current government are responsible for the state of public finances, but that they should have been sorted out in five years. It's just bizarre to be honest with you, especially considering the Tories have been hamstrung by being in a coalition with the Liberal Democrats.

I've pretty much decided that the vast majority of people in the UK have some kind of mental deficiency when it comes to financial management, whether that be on a national or personal level. The National and personal debt levels support that assertion.

Despite that, some people seem to think that Labour are a good idea for the next government!

http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/mythbusters-excessive-government-borrowing-got-us-into-this-mess

Perhaps it's you with the mental deficiency.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ExiledEric on Friday, April 10, 2015, 17:00:14
Some interesting data there Arnold Corns.   That said, I haven't scoured the NEF Website but they describe themselves as "NEF is the UK's leading think tank promoting social, economic and environmental justice".  Thus, you can't help but wonder whether they would - by definition - be likely to be pro-Labour.  Not saying that their data is false of course but isn't this a bit like a (admittedly more intellectual) Daily Mail precis of the current Tory Government?

The country was left royally f*cked at the end of the Labour tenure, even if it wasn't in that state during the early years of the Blair government.  I have no doubt at all that the level of debt was substantially due to the banking crisis, as it was in most other European countries.  The question is, of course, how much can you attribute to the Labour Government.  What would the Conservative view of increased controls over global banks' London operation by a Labour Government?  Global banks tend to be very mobile in terms of where they locate people.  A potential exodus of jobs in the City would have been widely condemned.

The crisis was pretty deep and balancing the books would be no mean feat.  However, if five years isn't enough time to resolve things, how long is?  Should the current government be judged over 8, 10, 13 years?  How many years is the correct number?

I don't understand the maximum wage point.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 10, 2015, 17:06:23
http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/mythbusters-excessive-government-borrowing-got-us-into-this-mess

Perhaps it's you with the mental deficiency.
As Exiled Eric pointed out, the source you site is indeed a leftist publication.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Friday, April 10, 2015, 17:24:25
As Exiled Eric pointed out, the source you site is indeed a leftist publication.

So they have made it all up have they. Even the ex Bank of England Governor agreed that it wasn't the Labour government that caused the mess.

If Labour hadn't bailed out the banks the Country would have gone into a deep depression.
Anyone who thinks the Tories will look out for the ordinary working people in this country is deluded.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Friday, April 10, 2015, 17:32:06
Anyone who thinks the Tories will look out for the ordinary working people in this country is deluded.
This is exactly how I feel.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ExiledEric on Friday, April 10, 2015, 17:36:31

I suppose the question is will any of the parties look after the ordinary people?  Do Labour's elite really resonate any more with the average working guy than the Bullingdon Club members?  I'm really not sure any more (and have voted Labour in every election since I turned 18 in 1983 and was living in Park North)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, April 10, 2015, 18:07:11
So, just so I've got this right, Labour are to blame for the financial crisis, which was part of a Global financial crisis? I'm not a Labour voter and don't plan on voting for them time, but to blame a financial crisis that affected many countries worldwide on a single national political party is bizarre.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 10, 2015, 18:32:15
So, just so I've got this right, Labour are to blame for the financial crisis, which was part of a Global financial crisis? I'm not a Labour voter and don't plan on voting for them time, but to blame a financial crisis that affected many countries worldwide on a single national political party is bizarre.
I haven't said Labour were to blame for the global banking crisis though.

Labour are to blame for overspending and under saving. Simple terms for simple people...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, April 10, 2015, 19:04:32
I haven't said Labour were to blame for the global banking crisis though.

Labour are to blame for overspending and under saving. Simple terms for simple people...
Ah right, thanks for simplifying it for me. Just out of interest, when was the UK last in a no debt situation? Most countries run with debt, including Germany, Japan, The US, Canada.... The list goes on and on. It's not that important really, is it? I mean it only really affects us, the great unwashed, when governments use it as a reason for cutting essential services, victimising the most vulnerable and selling off anything that's still publically owned. At the same time protecting big business and turning a blind eye to high level tax avoidance.
I'm sure it's much more complicated than that, someone of my limited intelligence couldn't possibly understand it fully.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, April 10, 2015, 19:19:43
Anyone who thinks the Tories will look out for the ordinary working people in this country is deluded.

How will Labour look out for the ordinary working people?

Under the current Tory government, someone earning £20k a year pays about £800 a year less in taxes now than 5 years ago and unemployment is currently down around 0.6m from 5 years ago. i'd have thought more take home pay and more jobs are the best thing any government could do.

I mean it only really affects us, the great unwashed, when governments use it as a reason for cutting essential services, victimising the most vulnerable and selling off anything that's still publically owned. At the same time protecting big business and turning a blind eye to high level tax avoidance.
I'm sure it's much more complicated than that, someone of my limited intelligence couldn't possibly understand it fully.

A lot of that applies to Labour as much as the Tories. They continued to privatise (NHS privatisation increased dramatically under them for example), protected big business (pressurising the FSA to minimise banking regulations for example) and did absolutely nothing about tax avoidance.

To be honest I don't think there is really much between the two parties on a lot of this stuff. Most of it is just how people have somewhat outdated views of the two parties and the rest of it is just spin from the parties or their media supporters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, April 10, 2015, 19:26:37
A lot of that applies to Labour as much as the Tories. They continued to privatise (NHS privatisation increased dramatically under them for example), protected big business (pressurising the FSA to minimise banking regulations for example) and did absolutely nothing about tax avoidance.

To be honest I don't think there is really much between the two parties on a lot of this stuff. Most of it is just how people have somewhat outdated views of the two parties and the rest of it is just spin from the parties or their media supporters.
Absolutely. I've got no bias toward any of the main parties, I distrust them all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Friday, April 10, 2015, 19:32:03
How will Labour look out for the ordinary working people?

Under the current Tory government, someone earning £20k a year pays about £800 a year less in taxes now than 5 years ago and unemployment is currently down around 0.6m from 5 years ago. i'd have thought more take home pay and more jobs are the best thing any government could do.

A lot of that applies to Labour as much as the Tories. They continued to privatise (NHS privatisation increased dramatically under them for example), protected big business (pressurising the FSA to minimise banking regulations for example) and did absolutely nothing about tax avoidance.

To be honest I don't think there is really much between the two parties on a lot of this stuff. Most of it is just how people have somewhat outdated views of the two parties and the rest of it is just spin from the parties or their media supporters.
You are correct, the Labour Party is too far to the Right for my liking at the moment but they are more likely to do more for the average working person than the Tories.
People may pay a little less in tax on their pay due to the thresholds being raised but that doesn't compensate for the majority having no pay rises and also the hike in VAT by this Government.
As for unemployment, the figures are grossly misrepresented. The amount of people in zero hours contracts make the figures seem better than the reality.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 10, 2015, 20:18:34
Ah right, thanks for simplifying it for me. Just out of interest, when was the UK last in a no debt situation? Most countries run with debt, including Germany, Japan, The US, Canada.... The list goes on and on. It's not that important really, is it? I mean it only really affects us, the great unwashed, when governments use it as a reason for cutting essential services, victimising the most vulnerable and selling off anything that's still publically owned. At the same time protecting big business and turning a blind eye to high level tax avoidance.
I'm sure it's much more complicated than that, someone of my limited intelligence couldn't possibly understand it fully.

You seem to be confused between the trade deficit and the national debt.

The trade deficit can be closed by exporting more and importing less. (this is simplistic but clearly simplistic works).

The National debt, is a whole different kettle of fish. It needs sorting out sooner rather than later. We can't afford to increase it. We must start decreasing it. The sooner we pay less in interest on debts, the sooner we can pay more to our essential services.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 10, 2015, 20:23:37
How will Labour look out for the ordinary working people?

Under the current Tory government, someone earning £20k a year pays about £800 a year less in taxes now than 5 years ago and unemployment is currently down around 0.6m from 5 years ago. i'd have thought more take home pay and more jobs are the best thing any government could do.

A lot of that applies to Labour as much as the Tories. They continued to privatise (NHS privatisation increased dramatically under them for example), protected big business (pressurising the FSA to minimise banking regulations for example) and did absolutely nothing about tax avoidance.

To be honest I don't think there is really much between the two parties on a lot of this stuff. Most of it is just how people have somewhat outdated views of the two parties and the rest of it is just spin from the parties or their media supporters.
I thought it had been established that Labour privatised 4% of the NHS and the Tories only increased that to 6%? Labour - talking shite since inception...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, April 10, 2015, 22:14:43
You seem to be confused between the trade deficit and the national debt.

The trade deficit can be closed by exporting more and importing less. (this is simplistic but clearly simplistic works).

The National debt, is a whole different kettle of fish. It needs sorting out sooner rather than later. We can't afford to increase it. We must start decreasing it. The sooner we pay less in interest on debts, the sooner we can pay more to our essential services.
Not confusing anything. The countries I mentioned all have national debt, as do we. In fact our country has never not been in debt, going back as far as the Napoleonic Wars and beyond. I'd agree that it would make sense to reduce it, but it's the how I have a problem with. Billions of pounds in unpaid corporation tax, that successive governments seem to turn a blind eye to, would certainly help.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Saturday, April 11, 2015, 05:40:01
Not confusing anything. The countries I mentioned all have national debt, as do we. In fact our country has never not been in debt, going back as far as the Napoleonic Wars and beyond. I'd agree that it would make sense to reduce it, but it's the how I have a problem with. Billions of pounds in unpaid corporation tax, that successive governments seem to turn a blind eye to, would certainly help.
I don't disagree with any of that, especially the bit about corporation tax.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Saturday, April 11, 2015, 07:38:04
Like the political debate and there`s a Tory on board - whatever next......!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sippo on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 09:16:45
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B_a_OnZVAAATNSB.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 17:08:25
I love the simplistic "Labour run up debt and the Tories sort out the mess" argument that Cameron seems to still be peddling without anyone in the media even bothering to challenge it, and the uninformed or stupid (pick whichever label you think you deserve) that swallow it whole and regurgitate it in every political debate.

My favourite website is this one:

http://www.debtbombshell.com/britains-budget-deficit.htm

Which shows a graph making it pretty bloody clear that budget deficits under the Tories and Labour have been much of a muchness, fluctuating with the worldwide economic cycle of boom / recession rather than any tendencies towards financial prudence or ineptitude whoever it is that sits in number 11 might display. But then ignores the data and makes the argument that the main problem was Gordon Brown waving his credit card around.

This one shows pretty much the same thing in a bit more detail:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/oct/18/deficit-debt-government-borrowing-data

That's my entire adult life on that chart, and in that whole time there's been a balanced, or surplus budget 6 times, 4 of which have been with Gordon Brown as Chancellor.

Oh and don't be fooled by the reassuringly low looking deficits in the late 70's and 80's into thinking "oh but Thatcher at least didn't overspend too much". Bear in mind that table isn't showing deficit as a proportion of GDP but in actual £Billions.
Quarterly GDP in 1979 was only £45-50m. By 1993 (the biggest year of deficit under the Tories) it had grown to about £145m, and by 2005 (the biggest deficit year under Labour until the shit hit the fan in 2009) it was between £310m and £325m a quarter. As a proportion of GDP Tory deficits are MASSIVELY larger than Labours.

It all only goes really tits up when the crash hits in 2009 and tax revenues plummet whilst benefits costs rise, and the Tories "triumph" in reducing the deficit there is largely down to the weak, gradual but inevitable economic recovery.

Government debt ( and consumer debt for that matter) I'm afraid is not the product of wanton overspending, fiscal incompetence, or over generosity, it's a necessary function of market economics.

Globally a free market economy will always produce more goods and services than the world's population can afford to buy. After all if all firms paid us the value of the goods and services we provided, they wouldn't make a profit would they.

They've got to sell that shit somehow, and out of the kindness of their hearts they're prepared to lend us, and the state, the money to buy it all. Eventually that debt mountain gets so high everyone loses confidence it can ever be repaid, they all shit themselves, there's a run on banks and it either all collapses like in the 1920's or the more stable states wade in and prop it all up, based on even more fecking debt.

It can't go on like that forever of course but for the time being everyone just seems to be whistling and looking the other way when one of the props creaks, or are pretending they have a magic way to "fix capitalism".
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 19:29:34

That's my entire adult life on that chart, and in that whole time there's been a balanced, or surplus budget 6 times, 4 of which have been with Gordon Brown as Chancellor.
 

Those 4 times being when the international economy was booming...all that graph illustrates is that  our economy is very dependent upon the international situation.
 
I am somewhat surprised by the scale of deficit that was running 2002-2008 when one considers that was a booming period!

The graph actually illustrates how much the economy is dependent on matters way beyond the governments control. You complain about the Tory pushing the "Labour run up debt and the Tories sort out the mess", I am inclined to agree however is it any different to the argument at the last election that was "Labour was responsible for all these booming years and then the market collapsed, but that was nothing to do with us it was an international economy issue - they all want their bloody cake and eat it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 20:20:28
Sturgeon is bloody impressive again tonight, think she is a class act as a party leader

The Welsh bird mesmorises me every time she opens her mouth


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: SuggWillSugg MBE on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 20:21:46
Appears to be a ridiculous decision for Cameron to turn down being part of this debate. He's just made himself an easy target tonight.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 20:55:53
Appears to be a ridiculous decision for Cameron to turn down being part of this debate. He's just made himself an easy target tonight.

As a point of information, Clegg said he would have liked to debate.....but wasn't invited  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 21:06:20
Appears to be a ridiculous decision for Cameron to turn down being part of this debate. He's just made himself an easy target tonight.

I think that was their plan, and in turn showing the people of England that the alternative to a Tory government, is a Labour/SNP/Green/Welsh coalition led by Sturgeon. A lot of people are saying how great she is but that will eventually turn in to concern when they realise she only cares about Scotland and will shit all over Miliband.

Still think the most likely outcome of the election is a shit storm for 6-12 months before we have to do it all again.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 21:23:21
What a shower of shit before the nation.
How on earth can any of those gain any respect I will never know.

Clever move by Cameron. Just sit back and watch.
Millipede is an absolute clueless muppet and would put the Country back in debt once again.
Talks without any substance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JoeMezz on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 21:40:34
Speak for many here, not convinced by any party. Having to pick the best from a very bad bunch is a sad state of affairs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 23:36:29
Don't think chicken Dave was clever in not being involved in the debate. Quite the opposite I'd say. People will be asking why he refused to take part. The prime minister not showing up doesn't look good for him. I'm glad as it should help lose him votes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 17, 2015, 07:07:25
Millipede is an absolute clueless muppet and would put the Country back in debt once again.
The country's still in debt. Billions and billions of pounds of it. Has been since the Napoleonic wars and will likely remain so long after you or I are long gone. So no-one's going to put the country back in debt


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Friday, April 17, 2015, 07:44:50
Millipede is an absolute clueless muppet and would put the Country back in debt once again.
Talks without any substance.

I'll refer you to my post a page or so back, but you probably won't bother to read it. Why let annoying things like facts get in the way of your self righteous outrage after all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Friday, April 17, 2015, 07:47:59
Those 4 times being when the international economy was booming...all that graph illustrates is that  our economy is very dependent upon the international situation.

That's pretty much the point I was making. The only difference in the two major parties is that when the Tories are in charge during a boom they hand out tax cuts to the wealthy rather than invest in public services, and when Labour are in the same situation they throw money at public services trying to patch up what the Tories left to rot when they were in charge.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, April 17, 2015, 08:15:16
That's pretty much the point I was making. The only difference in the two major parties is that when the Tories are in charge during a boom they hand out tax cuts to the wealthy rather than invest in public services, and when Labour are in the same situation they throw money at public services trying to patch up what the Tories left to rot when they were in charge.

And now you're the one ignoring the facts. The Tories cut taxes for everyone, the 20% basic rate is a Tory policy, started by Thatcher and then continued by successive governments (including Labour) - prior to Thatcher the tax rates were 33% and 83%. We've also had the increases in personal allowance over the last 5 years, which benefits the lowest earners the most. Labour on the other hand removed the 10% tax rate for the lowest earners and increased NI for everyone.

The Tory philosophy is to reduce taxes, putting money in to everyone's pockets so they can decide how to spend it.

Labour on the other hand increase taxes for everyone so they can increase public spending, thinking it's best the state decides on and controls spending.

Problem is the Tories go too far with cutting public spending whilst Labour go too far with increasing it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 17, 2015, 10:40:34
The Tory philosophy is to reduce taxes, putting money in to everyone's pockets so they can decide how to spend it.

One of the first things Osborne did was to increase VAT to 20%....having said previously there were no plans for an increase.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 17, 2015, 10:45:49
I thought the cuts in the starting threshold the coalition introduced were Lib Dem policy, not Tories? They cut taxes for their own, Labour raise taxes to spend on their own.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, April 17, 2015, 11:57:43
I see the repulsive IDS is at it again today regarding zero hour contracts. What a fucking wanker he is


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 17, 2015, 13:01:43
Sturgeon is bloody impressive again tonight, think she is a class act as a party leader

The Welsh bird mesmorises me every time she opens her mouth

Farage is getting bolder, making less attempt to hide the nationalist agenda - I suspect he is already aligning the party to be try and morph into the English equivalent of the SNP after the election to jump on the inevitable response to the large gains the SNP will make in Scotland and thus the idea that politics in England is being overly controlled by a Scottish party!

Natalie Bennett has got a bit of a temper on her really lost her rag at least once last night.

The fact that Sturgeon is coming across well is hardly surprising, it's a lot easier to perform in such events if you have essentially won your election already (as the polls show the SNP have) and thus are essentially preaching to the converted.

Finally I would agree with you regarding Leanne Wood's accent!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, April 17, 2015, 13:14:21
One of the first things Osborne did was to increase VAT to 20%....having said previously there were no plans for an increase.

The same way Labour promised no tax increases, then raised NI.

As I said though, the Tories reduce taxes to put money in your pocket to spend how you want. Not everything is subject to VAT giving you some choice as opposed to it being deducted directly from your pay packet.

I thought the cuts in the starting threshold the coalition introduced were Lib Dem policy, not Tories? They cut taxes for their own, Labour raise taxes to spend on their own.

It was a Lib Dem policy, but it took the Tories as well to implement it and balance the budgets. It's also now a Tory policy going forwards to increase it further. Even if you ignore it, they're still the party that reduces taxes and will continue to do as finances allow.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Monday, April 20, 2015, 17:05:27
That Nicola Sturgeon needs a good kick in the hole.

Whatever happened to English votes for English matters.

Keep your sweaty nose out.

We'll rue the day our 'politicians' campaigned to keep the Union


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Monday, April 20, 2015, 17:11:42
That Nicola Sturgeon needs a good kick in the hole.

Whatever happened to English votes for English matters.

Keep your sweaty nose out.

We'll rue the day our 'politicians' campaigned to keep the Union

Ha ha ha, brilliant to see Sturgeon stir it up. Good on her.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Monday, April 20, 2015, 17:34:14
We'll rue the day our 'politicians' campaigned to keep the Union

Did their appearances north of the border do any good? If anything it probably got the Yes campaign more votes every times the party leaders appeared to campaign for a No vote


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, April 20, 2015, 21:22:18
That Nicola Sturgeon needs a good kick in the hole.

Whatever happened to English votes for English matters.

Keep your sweaty nose out.

We'll rue the day our 'politicians' campaigned to keep the Union

If the UK can have a referendum on leaving the EU and the Scots can have a referendum on leaving the UK, why (oh why, oh why!) can we English not have a referendum on seceding.

We could leave the jocks to get their Barnett formula and other demands from a Celts-only UK rump and leave Plaid Cymru, DUP, Sinn Fein and SNP in their Utopian English-free state?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, April 25, 2015, 17:20:22
This is brilliant.  The Conservative candidate for Witney forgets which football team he's been a life-long fan of.

Independent: David Cameron Forgets if he's an Aston Villa or West Ham Fan (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/generalelection/general-election-2015-david-cameron-forgets-if-hes-an-aston-villa-or-west-ham-fan-10203685.html)

The main message here, of course, is that the likely winner of the Witney seat has absolutely no interest whatsoever in Oxford United.  (Although, to be fair, there are probably more Swindon fans living there than yellows anyway.)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Saturday, April 25, 2015, 17:26:55
This is brilliant.  The Conservative candidate for Witney forgets which football team he's been a life-long fan of.

Independent: David Cameron Forgets if he's an Aston Villa or West Ham Fan (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/generalelection/general-election-2015-david-cameron-forgets-if-hes-an-aston-villa-or-west-ham-fan-10203685.html)

The main message here, of course, is that the likely winner of the Witney seat has absolutely no interest whatsoever in Oxford United.  (Although, to be fair, there are probably more Swindon fans living there than yellows anyway.)

That prick is my MP


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 11:52:25
I've just found out that the Labour candidate in my constituency is a Swindon fan.  What were the odds of that?!

He'll never win, mind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 12:43:48
Not sure that it means anything for now, but my wife works in a large technical college, with over 2000 full time, day release and evening students of votable age. They are running an election poll, and bearing in mind its very multicultural, the current standings are surprising. She said there has been around 300 votes so far, and ukip are polling at 80%, the rest barely register. And this is in a Liberal safe seat. Go figure.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 13:11:38
With that high a following for UKIP that does upset me that so many people (especially the young electorate) are influenced by a few policies that they feel so strongly about but ignoring the bigger picture and probable damage that Farage could do to the country and economy if he gets into No 10.

Truly disappointing and disheartening.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chubbs on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 13:15:48
With that high a following for UKIP that does upset me that so many people (especially the young electorate) are influenced by a few policies that they feel so strongly about but ignoring the bigger picture and probable damage that Farage could do to the country and economy if he gets into No 10.

Truly disappointing and disheartening.

I don't do politics but isn't that the case for all the parties? i highly doubt there is a party out there that someone argees with 100%


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 13:28:30
I don't do politics but isn't that the case for all the parties? i highly doubt there is a party out there that someone argees with 100%
I wouldnt have thought that 1 or 2 policies would be enough to get most peoples votes.

For me I can allow 1 or 2 policies that I don't agree with through the net and not stop me voting for a party (as long as I dont disagreee strongly with them) but to ignore 99% of all the other policies totally to get 1 or 2 that you do agree with is mental.

Just my personal opinion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 13:59:45
The danger isn't UKIP winning an election by majority, that's certainly not going to happen (yet). The real danger is a vote for UKIP is most likely to put Labour back in power and I really don't think the economy is robust enough for the two Eds to dick around with.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 14:20:03
Not sure that it means anything for now, but my wife works in a large technical college, with over 2000 full time, day release and evening students of votable age. They are running an election poll, and bearing in mind its very multicultural, the current standings are surprising. She said there has been around 300 votes so far, and ukip are polling at 80%, the rest barely register. And this is in a Liberal safe seat. Go figure.

Most of those will not be registered to vote...there's something like a million young people disenfranchised, a situation not helped by the change in rules regarding registering.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 14:49:48
Quite possibly, but then again, there are a lot of apprentices, and a lot of mature students doing evening classes, so I think its an interesting outcome. Incidentally my daughters secondary school are doing the same excercise. And i'm sure though their opinions will alter a million times.. currently there the Greens are romping it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 15:07:20
Quite possibly, but then again, there are a lot of apprentices, and a lot of mature students doing evening classes, so I think its an interesting outcome. Incidentally my daughters secondary school are doing the same excercise. And i'm sure though their opinions will alter a million times.. currently there the Greens are romping it!

FE, is one of those sectors which is already experiencing cuts, especially in subject choice, I suspect this will continue whatever the outcome of the election, although the degree of cutting may vary.

Of the Tory education initiatives, I liked the UTC idea, to provide apprenticeship type courses for young people 14-19 in engineering etc, sadly some are already closing due to lack of interest from the kids.  I'd like to think the Swindon site will prove viable.

I suspect it won't be too long before Gove's folly in academies and free schools hits home, when the initial bribes run out, and the schools are leftto fend for themselves on dwindling central funding.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 15:28:22
Are Labour not fully supportive of Academies?  (In fact, I'm fairly sure they introduced them.)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 15:38:18
The academy program shows signs of slowing down in the south east, and there is a pretty even split between those moving to academy status and those moving into federations now, whereas it was fully tilted to academies a couple of years back. Academies started on the back of the aborted BSF new school buildings projects. Most as soon as they got the government funding quickly ditched the local authorities managing them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 15:53:31
Are Labour not fully supportive of Academies?  (In fact, I'm fairly sure they introduced them.)

Yes, Labour introduced sponsored academies, but Gove moved it on to more or less force all schools out of LEA control.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 17:35:41
Wouldn't worry about UKIP, they are projected to win 2-3 seats by the bookies.

A far more accurate method than the polls of predicting what will happen


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 17:59:57
It's been interesting quite how totally partisan some of the press are being on who to vote for - and who not to vote for. Can't remember it being quite so biased before.

Will it work though? To quote Mark Steel:

If the polls haven't changed by Friday, The front pages of The Sun, Mail and Telegraph will be "OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE JUST VOTE TORY YOU CUNTS"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 18:18:35
It's been interesting quite how totally partisan some of the press are being on who to vote for - and who not to vote for. Can't remember it being quite so biased before.

It has been ever thus....dating back to the Daily Mail's forging of the Zinoviev letter 4 days before the 1924 election, purporting to show that an incoming Labour administration would be the puppet of the Bolsheviks.

14 or so years later, they were backing Mosley and Ironside's mate.

The Sun this time is backing the SNP in its Scottish paper and the Tories in England :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 18:27:54
It has been ever thus....dating back to the Daily Mail's forging of the Zinoviev letter 4 days before the 1924 election, purporting to show that an incoming Labour administration would be the puppet of the Bolsheviks.

14 or so years later, they were backing Mosley and Ironside's mate.

The Sun this time is backing the SNP in its Scottish paper and the Tories in England :)

What is it about the Tories that multi-millionaire newspaper-owning, media moguls seem to like so much? Oh, wait ...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 19:51:39
See Harry Toffolo showing his (blue) colours on Twitter


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 19:58:08
See Harry Toffolo showing his (blue) colours on Twitter

Most footballers are, especially top end types. 

Sol Campbell is currently doing his bit for the Tories, because he's upset about the propsed Mansion Tax, biting into his 34 mill fortune.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 20:08:19
Most footballers are, especially top end types. 

Sol Campbell is currently doing his bit for the Tories, because he's upset about the propsed Mansion Tax, biting into his 34 mill fortune.

I know, just think they would be wise not to publicise it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, May 4, 2015, 19:55:30
The Independent have just backed another Tory/Lib coalition. That's a genuine surprise in an election campaign devoid of them so far.

It seems like Thursday's election is going to lead to either a weaker Tory/Lib coalition with very little if any Scottish MPs or a Labour/SNP horse trading agreement.

Think we may be heading for a second election later this year. Hopefully at least one party finds some new ideas from somewhere before then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 08:51:43
The Independent have just backed another Tory/Lib coalition. That's a genuine surprise in an election campaign devoid of them so far.

It seems like Thursday's election is going to lead to either a weaker Tory/Lib coalition with very little if any Scottish MPs or a Labour/SNP horse trading agreement.

Think we may be heading for a second election later this year. Hopefully at least one party finds some new ideas from somewhere before then.

I just read their op-ed too, and broadly agree with it. I'd really like a stronger balancing Liberal component next time round, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

My biggest worry about a Lab-SNP axis is that the SNP will have every interest in making themselves so obstructive at Westminster that it will polarise the national debate to such an extent that everyone will quickly want to cut Scotland adrift, which plays precisely to their agenda.

How one of the historically most stable unions in the world got into this mess so quickly reminds me of that expression about suicide: a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Be careful what you vote for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: NZrobin on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 10:04:11
From sitting miles away in New Zealand it looks like Britain is a total car crash waiting to happen... in fact it's already happened and there is a delayed reaction and denial of the current situation.

This was the case here in New Zealand until common sense became a possibility due to in a strong government that got into power. The government is a National party similar as to the Conservatives in Britain.

That said, I now do most of my business in Fiji and that the Country is really buzzing after a military coup some 6 years ago. For the record Fiji was divided by native Fijians 49% Fijian Indians 48% and others approximately 3%.

When the military took over in Fiji every Western power were totally critical and black listed Fiji for 4 / 5 years including Britain and its commonwealth members, USA, Australia and New Zealand.

Since then common sense has taken place where basically everyone in Fiji is supporting Fiji First.... No more division where there are cultural differences, racial unrest, mass corruption and the bullshit that comes about with the very rich, working class and the poor.

Yes, this now elected government is very much a left wing socialist favour

Why I am highlighting the present situation in Fiji and to a lesser part New Zealand is.... Basically, until Britain has a leader who has the mandate / power and the balls to deliver what Britain really needs to get back to reality including basic common sense and to get back to Britain First.

Britain is so divided and unmanageable...Basically you are all fucked  !!! 

Hope I don't sound like a little Austrian with a mustache as I don't mean too..

COYMR's  :)
 

         


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 10:17:46
I just read their op-ed too, and broadly agree with it. I'd really like a stronger balancing Liberal component next time round, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

My biggest worry about a Lab-SNP axis is that the SNP will have every interest in making themselves so obstructive at Westminster that it will polarise the national debate to such an extent that everyone will quickly want to cut Scotland adrift, which plays precisely to their agenda.

How one of the historically most stable unions in the world got into this mess so quickly reminds me of that expression about suicide: a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Be careful what you vote for.

Must admit I broadly agree with all the above.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 10:30:48
Must admit I broadly agree with all the above.

Have to say, I completely fail to see how any intelligent person would wish to see another Cameron/Clegg axis.  Both have shown that all they'll do anything necesary to cling to power.....Cameron, his Freudian slip about this being a super important election for his "career" interests, when he ws supposed to say country's.  Clegg fessing up he'll stomach an EU referendum, if it means getting his ministerial chauffeur back.

Clegg knows full well, that said referendum could prove disastrous for the UK....and should have nowt to do with it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 10:35:27
Have to say, I completely fail to see how any intelligent person would wish to see another Cameron/Clegg axis.  Both have shown that all they'll do anything necesary to cling to power.....Cameron, his Freudian slip about this being a super important election for his "career" interests, when he ws supposed to say country's.  Clegg fessing up he'll stomach an EU referendum, if it means getting his ministerial chauffeur back.

Clegg knows full well, that said referendum could prove disastrous for the UK....and should have nowt to do with it.

Fair dues, so what would be an ideal outcome for Chez Smeeton?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 10:56:59
Fair dues, so what would be an ideal outcome for Chez Smeeton?

I vote Labour to get a Labour government....but all the punditry and polls points to a close run thing, so at this point in time, it's let's wait until Friday to see how things look.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: NZrobin on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 11:04:42
Do you really think a coalition government could possibly work in Britain.

Cameron and Clegg have made a joke of this possibility.

Surely, only can see a very small minority (King maker) such as UKIP turn the country into a worst situation. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 12:14:29
Worst thing for me is that we've somehow managed to avoid there being a debate on the real issues.

Scottish independence hasn't been resolved and will continue to run and run. Exactly what does Scotland want to remain in the Union? How about moving to a federal style government? What do Wales and Northern Ireland want? What about England?

The EU, in or out? What exactly are the issues people have with the EU, can they be resolved?

The deficit. How quickly do we want to clear it, how much austerity can be tolerated and what should be cut. It's been portrayed as "Tory cuts" and "Labour spending", which totally misses the real issue that needs to be discussed.

No matter what Sturgeon says, her only goal is independence and she'll do whatever it takes to achieve it - including fucking over the rest of the UK. I wouldn't have an issue with a Labour government, but a Lab-SNP government will be a disaster.

Despite what the polls and experts say, I still reckon there will be a swing to the Tories on the day and we'll end up with another Tory-LibDem coalition, maybe with the DUP and UKIP on board in some form.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 13:06:03
You're very right jonny. The way the media have let all the main parties off the hook of actually discussing any of the main issues has been quite shocking.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 13:15:47
You're very right jonny. The way the media have let all the main parties off the hook of actually discussing any of the main issues has been quite shocking.

That's a good point Paul, and let me tell you why!

The whole 'campaign' has just been dominated by the personalities (I use that in its weakest form!)  and their painfully detailed media training!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 14:45:06
The Independent have just backed another Tory/Lib coalition. That's a genuine surprise in an election campaign devoid of them so far.

Might that be something to do with the owner, Evgeny Lebedev, being a billionaire friend of Boris Johnson? 

What could possibly lead the Independent to dislike the top-rate-tax-rising, non-dom-abolishing, mansion-taxing Labour Party I wonder...??


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 20:21:09
Worst thing for me is that we've somehow managed to avoid there being a debate on the real issues.

Scottish independence hasn't been resolved and will continue to run and run. Exactly what does Scotland want to remain in the Union? How about moving to a federal style government? What do Wales and Northern Ireland want? What about England?

The EU, in or out? What exactly are the issues people have with the EU, can they be resolved?

The deficit. How quickly do we want to clear it, how much austerity can be tolerated and what should be cut. It's been portrayed as "Tory cuts" and "Labour spending", which totally misses the real issue that needs to be discussed.

No matter what Sturgeon says, her only goal is independence and she'll do whatever it takes to achieve it - including fucking over the rest of the UK. I wouldn't have an issue with a Labour government, but a Lab-SNP government will be a disaster.

Despite what the polls and experts say, I still reckon there will be a swing to the Tories on the day and we'll end up with another Tory-LibDem coalition, maybe with the DUP and UKIP on board in some form.

Everything that the SNP do at Westminster with their block of 50+ MPs will be calibrated to cause division and further the cause of Scottish independence.  If they form part of a government, they will extract concessions from the senior party in government (ie Labour) in a manner that would cause (or add to) friction between the different parts of the UK.  And if they are frozen out of government, they will attack the legitimacy of the government in Scotland (which is actually a point I would have some sympathy with).

The chances of Scottish separation within the next 5 to 10 years are fairly high now, I would think.  But the idea of a UK break up doesn't seem as shocking now as it used to.  The issue has barely been out of the news for the last couple of years.  We'd all move on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 20:21:55
I still don't know who I'm voting for, by the way.  Any more 'undecideds' out there?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 20:26:25
Still undecided here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 20:28:05
I think I'm going to spoil my ballot paper.

My opinion is I think the Tories would probably do the best job of all the serious contenders. But I can't bring myself to vote for some of their policies.

Labour I reckon have a fairly high chance of fucking the recovery. Ed Balls for fucks sake.

Greens are, well, you know.

UKIP are also, well, you know.

There is nobody else standing.

Oh wait, forgot the Lib Dems. I voted for them last time, they bent over and took it up the arse. Will never vote for them again for dropping the key tuition fee promise.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 20:33:29
Still fairly undecided. Won't be voting UKIP but could potentially vote for the other four (although pretty unlikely to be the Tories, I agree with about 80% of what they do but I disagree so strongly with the other 20% I don't think I can vote for them, plus their candidate in Bath is pretty uninspiring).

Bath is a Lib Dem safe-ish seat (in as much as anything is safe Lib Dem these days) but it's a new guy standing and he seems fairly unremarkable. I probably agree with more Lib Dem policies than any other party, but think they got fairly little out of the last coalition (certainly considering what the SNP would want from Labour this time round).

Labour poll like 5% here, are standing a child as a candidate, and will probably lose to the Greens, who I might vote for on the grounds that their heart is in the right place even if they'd be a disaster running anything and it might at least prompt the other parties to consider some of their better policies.

Oh, and there's an independent candidate who seems quite could but has as much chance of winning as I do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 20:40:42
I'm still not 100% sure.

Bristol South has been Labour since 1935 but the ever narrowing gap and the recent significant gentrification of some areas mean that the Lib Dems (and maybe Greens) have a good chance of getting in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 21:13:56
Never voted for them before but this time round I'll be voting Tory, they and the Lib Dems have done a good job in last five years and the fact they're struggling so much in the election goes to show how poorly they've campaigned. They should have walked this against the party that got us into this mess. Miliband wouldn't even accept labour over spent last time around, how can we trust him to make the necessary decision if he did get back. It'd mean putting the economy into reverse.

Conversely it'll be great to see the SNP a do so well North of the border, Scottish Labour have had it coming up there!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 21:25:13
Tories =bedroom tax


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 21:35:14
So what did great things did labour give us during their last tenure?  :sherlock:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 21:46:22
Tory wankers have spent massively and bought out the big guns in Chippenham.  Boris, Gideon and Spamface have all visited, fortunately whilst Ive been away working.   They have also marshalled every ounce of fear and hatred they can through bullshit in their mates shitty media outlets to scare the small minded.

As a result they will win and I can vote he way I want to, not tactically, knowing it will have piss all effect on the final result.

Me and the 3 other lefties in Chippenham can then spend 5 years being being smug but depressed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 22:04:22
So what did great things did labour give us during their last tenure?  :sherlock:

Don't know about you but for starters I enjoyed the longest period of sustained, stable economic growth the country has ever known - prior to the global banking crisis.

In contrast, I've been made redundant twice in the last three years, never mind received a wage rise, seen child benefit disappear and had bitter first hand experience of Tory / Lib cuts in education, with far worse to come and local indifference and even obstruction to kids being able to participate in sport.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 22:06:42
Similar to the economic growth of the 70's?

You'll find the growth you are talking about was globally driven, wouldn't have mattered who was in power.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 22:11:16
Yeah labour did a great job of spend spend spend, and let someone else pick up the tab. Nothing left in the account by the time the con/libs got to power, no wonder they had to tighten the belts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 22:17:52
Tightening the belts isn't so much the issue if we're all tightening our belts. How many people have to be fucked over by the bedroom tax for cunts like Gary Barlow to avoid tax. how many local services need to be cut for Starbucks to pay fuck all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 22:24:12
How much tax has Starbucks and others been avoiding since the 1990's? Or have they only been dodging since Cameron got into no.10?

I'm not arguing Tories are wonderful and labour aren't, however I do prefer to have the Tories run the country, which is why I'll be voting for Gray.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 22:30:16
....Cameron, his Freudian slip about this being a super important election for his "career" interests, when he ws supposed to say country's.

Against my better nature, I have to disagree.  

Cameron in person is hugely likeable and massively charismatic, and is desperate to get out of the tiresome political arena and into light entertainment.  He's wasted as PM!  He sees himself as a cross between the re-invented Portillo and Ant or Dec, cracking jokes on a train towards the jungle on a Saturday TV teatime coming soon.    That way he stays one step ahead of that conceited blond clown, securing a place as the nation's sweetheart, and becoming either Brucie or Des Lynam, depending on Rupert's puppet plans for him.

Please help David find his vocation, follow his dreams and don't make him do all this again...after all, this is such an important election for his career prospects.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 22:41:48
You'll find the growth you are talking about was globally driven, wouldn't have mattered who was in power.
Yeah right, and the crash of course was a purely localised Labour driven catastrophe?

Yeah labour did a great job of spend spend spend, and let someone else pick up the tab. Nothing left in the account by the time the con/libs got to power, no wonder they had to tighten the belts.
Show me how Conservative spending policy at the time was different...I think it's been done to death that the issue was in not regulating banks rather than over-spending per se...and there was a fag paper between the two main parties on both.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 22:49:10
What are you on about?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 05:27:02
Yeah labour did a great job of spend spend spend, and let someone else pick up the tab. Nothing left in the account by the time the con/libs got to power, no wonder they had to tighten the belts.


Every time labour leave office they leave a cluster fcuk of finanancial chaos, which with remarkable coincidence the conservatives have to sort out when they get office and 13 years of spend, spend, spend take more than 5 years to turn around.

It is well known that poverty actually increased under labour. It is a well known fact that labour created hundreds of thousands on non jobs in local government. It is well known fact that the NHS, local and national government departments waste millions and millions every year.

I'm not driven by the politics of envy and hatred like the left seem to be. I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination. But let me tell you this. The rich got richer under labour. Labour wasted eye watering amounts of money over 13 years. Labour spent eye watering amounts of money over 13 years. Labour borrowed eye watering amounts of money over 13 years. Labour have saddled us tax payers and our kids with 30,40,50 year PFI debts so skewed in the favour of the filthy rich corporations and their shareholders that it beggars belief.

Don't fcuking make me laugh over the bedroom tax. You'd think the streets and gutters are filled with the elderly and disabled thrown out of their homes because they cannot pay a tax that is not a tax. I accept that there will always be exceptions to the rule. Which is a bit rich of the Labour Party who do love a tax. You do not rent a house with more rooms than you need or can afford, except in the public sector which has been starved of new housing stock and has waiting lists running into years and years. Why? Because labour did not fcuking build enough houses for their core voting support in 13 years. On top of allowing unfettered migration into this country every year running into the 100's of thousands who low and behold need........somewhere to live! They then inturn fall into the clutches of unscrupulous landlords sub letting council and housing ass property along with private landlords.

Life is a bed of roses under labour. As a working class bloke with kids I'd lick the skin off your poo rather than vote labour. It's bad enough this country is hamstrung by that lame duck bunch on the other side of the English Channel, having five years of this countries hard working people being mugged each way they turn by labour the SNP, plaid Cymru & the Lib dems. God help us.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 05:40:22
Yeah right, and the crash of course was a purely localised Labour driven catastrophe?
Show me how Conservative spending policy at the time was different...I think it's been done to death that the issue was in not regulating banks rather than over-spending per se...and there was a fag paper between the two main parties on both.

yes the fact the labour govt spent all the money was the Tories fault, silly me.

As was the lack of banking regulation. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14888933

Again the point to make here is labour and Tories both make mistakes, similar mistakes. But we have a choice either let a party who have a decent economic plan to continue their work, or lets all go back to square one and let them spend again. It's like giving a person with debt issues your credit card, a person who doesn't admit that they spent too much previously. Good luck with that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 06:03:11
Yes labour spent a lot of money, they completely pulled the nhs from its knees and turned it into the best healthcare system (that works for everyone) in the world, they put money into schools, sure start centres, housed the homeless, and people prospered. Does anyone remember just how shit this country was pre 1997?? They got things wrong, and the eu led to mass immigration, the banks fucked up because of American sub prime mortgages.

The Tories want to privatize the nhs and demolish the welfare state. There will be homeless people dying on our streets like America if they get in again, while millionaires pay no tax. Any working class person who votes for them betrays their own class. There are a lot of morons believing the right wing propaganda machine, it would be funny if it wasn't so fucking tragic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 06:14:10
"Long term economic plan" and "EU Referendum" are not compatible statements. Whether you are pro, anti or indifferent to our membership, the two years of uncertainty leading up to a vote will be stressful for our economy, at a time where the base rate remains at an all time low and our inflation is entirely at the mercy of oil prices.

The Tories will not be a safe economic bet, half their pledges (including NHS money) are unfunded gambles on some super recovery, which as I have alluded to above is far from certain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 06:28:55
I still have't received my polling card. Is being on the electoral roll different from registering to vote? Have I left it too late now?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 06:32:48
Never voted Labour in my life but I would rather support Oxford than vote Tory.

Doesn't matter who gets in we are all fucked and anybody who says different is deluded.

Makes no odds to me .... I live in Calne and a headless chimp would get in if it has a blue Rosette pinned on its chest. 'It's better to be fucked up the arse with a red hot poker by the Tories, because if Labour got in, I would have three hot pokers!".

Blaming Labour (who I'm not keen on) for a global economic meltdown is amusing.....it was Browns fault that America, Greece and Japan etc etc all went to rat shit!? IMO it was not.

Capitalism IS a failed system of boom and then bust (I wouldn't want to live in any other) so whoever is in power (Tories in the 90s, that everyone seems to have forgotten) gets to carry the can.

It's going to be a hung parliament for sure. I just hope that people get out and vote because I think everyone is fucked off with the attacks and lies and very little substance.

The lack of tax being paid by big corporations really concerns me and my hope whoever gets in will address this.......I think my hope will be in vain.

These words are just my opinion....so I'm not right or wrong...just like everyone else on here, we are all different and we get a vote to 'speak' how we feel.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 06:33:25
I still have't received my polling card. Is being on the electoral roll different from registering to vote? Have I left it too late now?

You'd only waste it on some lentil knitter....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jimbob on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 06:44:23
Tickbox.org.uk for the undecided


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 06:56:31
Yes labour spent a lot of money, they completely pulled the nhs from its knees and turned it into the best healthcare system (that works for everyone) in the world, they put money into schools, sure start centres, housed the homeless, and people prospered. Does anyone remember just how shit this country was pre 1997?? They got things wrong, and the eu led to mass immigration, the banks fucked up because of American sub prime mortgages.

The Tories want to privatize the nhs and demolish the welfare state. There will be homeless people dying on our streets like America if they get in again, while millionaires pay no tax. Any working class person who votes for them betrays their own class. There are a lot of morons believing the right wing propaganda machine, it would be funny if it wasn't so fucking tragic.

The Labour party, without being perfect, seeks to act in the interests of the whole country and all its people, the weak as well as the strong, in a way that the Tories rarely do. The key swing voters are people who basically support those Labour principles but sometimes vote Tory not out of conviction but out of fear that the Labour party are not a credible alternative government.   Every rant, even on a tiny website, that portrays the Labour party as faultless (when they clearly aren't) and Tories as psychopathic monsters intent on destroying everyone who didn't go to Eton, contributes to that lack of credibility.

The morons aren't the working class Tory voters, it's the idiot section of the Labour Party with their absurdly overblown and insulting rhetoric.  The irony is that it's the very people who arrogantly believe that only they represent the true heart of the labour movement that in reality fatally undermine it.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 07:40:53
Never voted Labour in my life but I would rather support Oxford than vote Tory.

Doesn't matter who gets in we are all fucked and anybody who says different is deluded.

Makes no odds to me .... I live in Calne and a headless chimp would get in if it has a blue Rosette pinned on its chest. 'It's better to be fucked up the arse with a red hot poker by the Tories, because if Labour got in, I would have three hot pokers!".

Blaming Labour (who I'm not keen on) for a global economic meltdown is amusing.....it was Browns fault that America, Greece and Japan etc etc all went to rat shit!? IMO it was not.

Capitalism IS a failed system of boom and then bust (I wouldn't want to live in any other) so whoever is in power (Tories in the 90s, that everyone seems to have forgotten) gets to carry the can.

It's going to be a hung parliament for sure. I just hope that people get out and vote because I think everyone is fucked off with the attacks and lies and very little substance.

The lack of tax being paid by big corporations really concerns me and my hope whoever gets in will address this.......I think my hope will be in vain.

These words are just my opinion....so I'm not right or wrong...just like everyone else on here, we are all different and we get a vote to 'speak' how we feel.


This.

Although down here in one of the Liberals strongest constituancies a vote for labour would be a wasted vote as the tories have ran David Laws and before him Paddy Ashdown close a few times.

So I have little choice but to vote Liberal as a tactical vote of keeping the Tories out of Yeovil and South Somerset.

I do not like to tactically vote but if it means keeping the Conservatives out then so be it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 08:07:10
The amount of tactical voting being considered on here is eye opening.  I can see a renewed - and a much more emphatic - push for Proportional Representation once the dust has settled.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 08:17:46
The amount of tactical voting being considered on here is eye opening.  I can see a renewed - and a much more emphatic - push for Proportional Representation once the dust has settled.

Its a minefield though, to tactically vote I would have to vote for one of the big two and I am not sure I can bring myself to do that!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 08:35:04
Never voted Labour in my life but I would rather support Oxford than vote Tory.

Doesn't matter who gets in we are all fucked and anybody who says different is deluded.

Makes no odds to me .... I live in Calne and a headless chimp would get in if it has a blue Rosette pinned on its chest. 'It's better to be fucked up the arse with a red hot poker by the Tories, because if Labour got in, I would have three hot pokers!".

Blaming Labour (who I'm not keen on) for a global economic meltdown is amusing.....it was Browns fault that America, Greece and Japan etc etc all went to rat shit!? IMO it was not.

Capitalism IS a failed system of boom and then bust (I wouldn't want to live in any other) so whoever is in power (Tories in the 90s, that everyone seems to have forgotten) gets to carry the can.

It's going to be a hung parliament for sure. I just hope that people get out and vote because I think everyone is fucked off with the attacks and lies and very little substance.

The lack of tax being paid by big corporations really concerns me and my hope whoever gets in will address this.......I think my hope will be in vain.

These words are just my opinion....so I'm not right or wrong...just like everyone else on here, we are all different and we get a vote to 'speak' how we feel.



I don't think many directly blame Labour for the meltdown, however it grates somewhat when they bang on about the Tories not regulating banking and tax matters when they had equally opportunity to sort the issue between 1997-2010 and chose not to - so the banking crash was a global not Labour issue, however the boom before that was also a global not Labour driven boom yet they try to take credit for that bit.

Equally for every Royal Mail, you have selling off the gold at the bottom of the market etc, etc etc - politics is cyclical - the interesting thing here is that the SNP and others have rolled up and upset the apple cart!

The NHS is an interesting one, the privitisation of elements started under the last government as did the rush to PFI which has left the whole system financially hamstrung for the next 20-30 years. I am not convinced that even the Tories would have had the balls to start that process, however as it was commenced under their predecessors they have grasped the bullet to drive it forward and adapt to their ideology, having had dealings directly with the NHS over the last year is is a bloody mess, I just don't accept that the only solution is to throw more money at it, it needs a proper (and entirely independent) review by people who know what they are doing and not dulled by political ideology of any colour.

Until recently my Father lived in France and had quite serious back trouble, saw doctor, MRI 2 days later and operation within a fortnight! His friend lives in Oxfordshire with same trouble - took 18 months for MRI and consultant appointment! People rightly point out that in France its an insurance system, but people also forget its supposed to be a state run insurance system here - National Insurance! We need to stop thinking the NHS is a scared cow, allowing it to be used as a pawn within political debate instead coming up with something that works in the 21st century!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 08:49:15
One of the biggest problems with the NHS, is like almost everything in the public sector, there's a total lack of accountability and it appears no one actually watches where the money is going.

For instance, I have something prescribed which costs £250 every 6 months + £8 a day. I won't describe these items but if you saw them your eyes would water at how they couldn't cost anymore than £2-£3 + 50p respectively. The company that provides them encourages me to use it more. They even send me more shit, paid for by the NHS, without asking.

Everyone involved in it from top to bottom, apart from GPs, has said, in a manner of speaking, "it might be expensive, but you're not paying for it." Well, I fucking am. My taxes cunting well pay for it, and I'll be damned if I'm lining some cunt's pockets because they deem it should be used a certain way and believe it should be priced that high without question. I have a feeling the fact in a year I've only used £362 of goods, yet have been posted another £100+ on top (still unused) will start to cause problems.

People need to stop treating these things like a free for all buffet, and be a bit more conscientious. We're a huge part of the problem, and the mates of various politicians that have the hands in the cookie jars are even worse. The public sector's waste, lack of accountability and open cheque book makes my blood boil.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 08:53:49
We need to stop thinking the NHS is a scared cow, allowing it to be used as a pawn within political debate instead coming up with something that works in the 21st century!

This same should also apply to education which becomes a football every 5 years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Leggett on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 09:01:24
Tickbox.org.uk for the undecided

that's just confirmed what I suspected. That'll do!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 09:27:00
When you go to a pharmacy to pick up your prescription you should be asked if you pay for your prescription.

If you say no, you SHOULD provide a card showinf you are exempt.

Should be NO CARD. NO MEDICINE but people just say no pay, tick a box saying under what rule they are exempt knowing the chances of anyone checking whether this is true or not is minute.

You would not believe the amount of medicine that is sent back 'home' to relatives.

It's a scandal


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 09:39:52
Some of today's front pages.  So much for a free press.

Why is it that the multi-billionaire owners of these newspapers openly hate the top-rate-tax-rising, non-dom-abolishing, mansion-taxing, Leveson-supporting Labour party...

Just cannot understand why any normal, working person would vote Tory over any of the alternatives.


Title: Re:
Post by: Honkytonk on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 10:59:08
As far as drug companies go they are hugely exploitative of the NHS. In exactly the same manner that arms manufacturers are exploitative of government contracts. We should do a China and go 'fuck you' to the big companies and just copy their shit for use in the NHS so we can make it ourselves at a fraction of the cost. If they complain about how sick people are getting better for free instead of lining their pockets well then fuck 'em. The government in general really needs to take a stand against big businesses operating with no moral compass or interest in the national good.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 11:30:44
Some of today's front pages.  So much for a free press.

Why is it that the multi-billionaire owners of these newspapers openly hate the top-rate-tax-rising, non-dom-abolishing, mansion-taxing, Leveson-supporting Labour party...

Just cannot understand why any normal, working person would vote Tory over any of the alternatives.

Has there ever been a 'free' press in this or any country, whenever the media is privately owned its angles will reflect the position of the owners, who often reflect and follow the direction their readership were following.

Nothing has changed and rightly or wrongly I don't recall there being this outcry from the left between 1997 and 2010 when Labour were on good terms with News International and such luminaries as the Sun were coming out and supporting Blair.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 11:50:04
Nothing has changed and rightly or wrongly I don't recall there being this outcry from the left between 1997 and 2010 when Labour were on good terms with News International and such luminaries as the Sun were coming out and supporting Blair.
There was plenty from the Left, who were deeply critical of Blair, especially over the war and privatisation of the NHS, just not from New Labour. Don't confuse the two.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 11:52:30
There was plenty from the Left, who were deeply critical of Blair, especially over the war and privatisation of the NHS, just not from New Labour. Don't confuse the two.

But hang on, weren't New Labour (are they just Labour now?) the left...  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 12:10:09
But hang on, weren't New Labour (are they just Labour now?) the left...  ;)
No. That was the whole point of New Labour. Don't want to get into the SNP debate but one of the (probably few) things they have got right is calling New Labour "Red Tories"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 12:21:01
No. That was the whole point of New Labour. Don't want to get into the SNP debate but one of the (probably few) things they have got right is calling New Labour "Red Tories"

I am interested in this, considering that the present 'Labour' is led by the rump of the former Blair lead government where do you think they stand now?

I am not stirring, genuinely interested what you think as I get the impression that they are stuck in some manner of political limbo of trying to distance themselves from Blair whilst also realising that 'New' Labour made them mainstream and electable?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 12:26:50
No. That was the whole point of New Labour. Don't want to get into the SNP debate but one of the (probably few) things they have got right is calling New Labour "Red Tories"

Labour currently occupies the territory of 50's/60s/ early 70's One Nation Tories.  Edward Heath would probably join the present day Labour Party...

The current SNP manifesto, doesn't look too dissimilar to Labour's 83 manifesto, which offered the abandoning of nuclear weapons.

The current Tory party ideology is the sort of laissez-faire beloved of the Liberal, William Ewart Gladstone.  It was Gladstone's opponent Disraeli, who made the first tentative moves towards One Nation Conservatism.

Fuck knows what Lib dems think...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 13:38:38
Every time labour leave office they leave a cluster fcuk of finanancial chaos, which with remarkable coincidence the conservatives have to sort out when they get office and 13 years of spend, spend, spend take more than 5 years to turn around.

It is well known that poverty actually increased under labour. It is a well known fact that labour created hundreds of thousands on non jobs in local government. It is well known fact that the NHS, local and national government departments waste millions and millions every year.

I'm not driven by the politics of envy and hatred like the left seem to be. I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination. But let me tell you this. The rich got richer under labour. Labour wasted eye watering amounts of money over 13 years. Labour spent eye watering amounts of money over 13 years. Labour borrowed eye watering amounts of money over 13 years. Labour have saddled us tax payers and our kids with 30,40,50 year PFI debts so skewed in the favour of the filthy rich corporations and their shareholders that it beggars belief.

Don't fcuking make me laugh over the bedroom tax. You'd think the streets and gutters are filled with the elderly and disabled thrown out of their homes because they cannot pay a tax that is not a tax. I accept that there will always be exceptions to the rule. Which is a bit rich of the Labour Party who do love a tax. You do not rent a house with more rooms than you need or can afford, except in the public sector which has been starved of new housing stock and has waiting lists running into years and years. Why? Because labour did not fcuking build enough houses for their core voting support in 13 years. On top of allowing unfettered migration into this country every year running into the 100's of thousands who low and behold need........somewhere to live! They then inturn fall into the clutches of unscrupulous landlords sub letting council and housing ass property along with private landlords.

Life is a bed of roses under labour. As a working class bloke with kids I'd lick the skin off your poo rather than vote labour. It's bad enough this country is hamstrung by that lame duck bunch on the other side of the English Channel, having five years of this countries hard working people being mugged each way they turn by labour the SNP, plaid Cymru & the Lib dems. God help us.


Some people on here spout a load of bollocks. You are a complete fucking idiot. Nothing you say is backed up by fact, it's all that you read in the right wing press. This Tory government has borrowed more in the last 5 years than Labour did in 13 years but hey why let facts get in the way of reality. You have been taken in by the right wing press and all the shit and lies it tells you. When Labour came to power in 1997 the deficit was higher than the deficit in 2010 when the Tories came in and most of the deficit in 2010 was caused globally by bailing out the banks - not the government. or do you think Labour were to blame for the crashes in Europe, America and Japan.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 14:17:38
Some people on here spout a load of bollocks. You are a complete fucking idiot. Nothing you say is backed up by fact, it's all that you read in the right wing press. This Tory government has borrowed more in the last 5 years than Labour did in 13 years but hey why let facts get in the way of reality. You have been taken in by the right wing press and all the shit and lies it tells you.

Maybe you've been taken in by the left-wing press? Just because you believe the opposite doesn't mean everyone else is an idiot. For each side's arguments, there's more evidence than you can shake a stick at supporting their opinion. The fact is if it vindicates a person's bias it's obviously correct.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 14:43:25
Maybe you've been taken in by the left-wing press? Just because you believe the opposite doesn't mean everyone else is an idiot. For each side's arguments, there's more evidence than you can shake a stick at supporting their opinion. The fact is if it vindicates a person's bias it's obviously correct.

Like all politics depends who you choose to believe, Robert Peston has an interesting analysis of it at - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32549892


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 15:03:05
Fuck the lot of them.

They are all in hock to various paymasters - business or the unions - but if those fucking SNP MPs end up with a say in things I predict a riot.

Should have jettisoned the sweaties while we had the chance


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 15:05:37
Unfortunately all the politicos from down here went up to scotland like some jilted lover to beg em to stay.  And now spamface after begging them to stay is saying they're the devil.  Make your mind up tosspot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 15:58:49
Fuck the lot of them.

They are all in hock to various paymasters - business or the unions - but if those fucking SNP MPs end up with a say in things I predict a riot.

Should have jettisoned the sweaties while we had the chance

As elected representatives, why should they not have a say?  I agree that they should not have a say on devolved matters (ie the well-worn West Lothian question/conundrum).  But on matters not devolved to the Scottish Assembley, surely they will have as much right as any other MP to direct policy?

Cameron needs to make his mind up.  Either he's a unionist, or he's not.  The Scots were told repeatedly - by Cameron and others - in the build up to the referendum last September that they were valued members of the union who should help shape the UK.  Like it or not, many of them are voting SNP precisely in order to make themselves heard.  So which is it?  Dave is flip-flopping big time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 16:10:35
So why didn't the fuckers vote YES in the referendum and do us all a favour?

If they're going to return wall to wall SNP MPs they obviously didn't have the bollocks to sever ties with the old nanny.

Shaggers


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 16:21:30
So why didn't the fuckers vote YES in the referendum and do us all a favour?

If they're going to return wall to wall SNP MPs they obviously didn't have the bollocks to sever ties with the old nanny.

Shaggers

At the time of the referendum, there were all sorts of promises from Cameron, and to be fair it was a result of the last minute Brown led intervention, about Devo Max.  Cameron promptly reneged, and raised the flag of English nationalism for party convenience, with his attempt to shaft Labour, over having Scottish MP's.....he will now in some form or other pay the price....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 16:23:50
And so shall we


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 16:24:10
Because they're using their votes in a way that ensures they get heard at Westminster.  The population of Yes voters will resemble that for SNP voters, but does not coincide precisely.  While it looks as if 50%+ are going to vote SNP in Scotland, I would be surprised if that translated to a Yes vote if there was another Yes/No referendum held tomorrow.

The SNP have been very open about wanting to shake things up at Westminster, and a majority of Scots appear to want that as well.  For what it's worth, plenty down here are in favour of a shake up as well; but, unfortunately, we don't have an 'SNP' to vote for.  (Some would place UKIP in that category, but their campaign never got off the ground.)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 16:27:45
If there were to ever be an English National Party they would be branded right wing racists.

It's OK for these poxy hanger-on countries to play the nationalism card but woe betide if we English did the same.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 16:43:33
...and the reason for that, quite clearly, is that there is massive asymmetry in the UK.  There are 10 of us (assuming, like me, that you're English) to every one of them.  It's a problem, because Scots (and Welsh and Northern Irish) can quite justifiably claim to having their wishes over-ridden almost all of the time by the English.  And that's yet another reason why so many Scots are now getting excited by the prospect that they're going to be HEARD.  At last!

My own personal solution to the problem - which I know would not be welcomed by everyone - is to federalise the UK.  But not purely along national (England, Scotland, Wales, NI) lines, because that would not deal with the asymmetry problem.  You would also have to regionalise England in to units roughly equal in size to Scotland...and the EU has already done that for us:

(http://www.europarl.org.uk/resource/static/images/MEPs/mep_map.gif)

In a UK Federal Parliament, representatives from Scotland would be able to find common cause on many issues with representatives from the more left-leaning regions of England.  And they would not feel outvoted on everything by a block of 54 million English voters.  A lot of English voters would not like the regionalisation, I know.  But I think something like this needs to happen if the union is going to continue.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 16:52:15
^

You've left out Gibraltar, which is part of the South West. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 17:22:13
So why didn't the fuckers vote YES in the referendum and do us all a favour?

If they're going to return wall to wall SNP MPs they obviously didn't have the bollocks to sever ties with the old nanny.

Shaggers

Fucking hell are you that thick that you can't separate the independance vote and voting SNP at the GE.

Fair play to Ardiles for putting some effort into his thinking.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Hammer on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 17:37:16
Fucking hell are you that thick that you can't spell independance

 

Independence. It's independence.

Sorted for you Audrey.      :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 17:46:35
...and the reason for that, quite clearly, is that there is massive asymmetry in the UK.  There are 10 of us (assuming, like me, that you're English) to every one of them.  It's a problem, because Scots (and Welsh and Northern Irish) can quite justifiably claim to having their wishes over-ridden almost all of the time by the English.  And that's yet another reason why so many Scots are now getting excited by the prospect that they're going to be HEARD.  At last!

My own personal solution to the problem - which I know would not be welcomed by everyone - is to federalise the UK.  But not purely along national (England, Scotland, Wales, NI) lines, because that would not deal with the asymmetry problem.  You would also have to regionalise England in to units roughly equal in size to Scotland...and the EU has already done that for us:

(http://www.europarl.org.uk/resource/static/images/MEPs/mep_map.gif)

In a UK Federal Parliament, representatives from Scotland would be able to find common cause on many issues with representatives from the more left-leaning regions of England.  And they would not feel outvoted on everything by a block of 54 million English voters.  A lot of English voters would not like the regionalisation, I know.  But I think something like this needs to happen if the union is going to continue.

Best post of the debate to date. Who said nothing good comes from the EU? (Which is, incidentally, one reason why this will probably never be adopted…)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 17:48:23
Cameron needs to make his mind up.  Either he's a unionist, or he's not.  The Scots were told repeatedly - by Cameron and others - in the build up to the referendum last September that they were valued members of the union who should help shape the UK.  Like it or not, many of them are voting SNP precisely in order to make themselves heard.  So which is it?  Dave is flip-flopping big time.

At the time of the referendum, there were all sorts of promises from Cameron, and to be fair it was a result of the last minute Brown led intervention, about Devo Max.  Cameron promptly reneged, and raised the flag of English nationalism for party convenience, with his attempt to shaft Labour, over having Scottish MP's.....he will now in some form or other pay the price....

Did I miss something? How did Cameron renege on the deal that was offered to Scotland? How is he flip-flopping?

The SNP are the ones that reneged, they made it clear the referendum was a once in a generation opportunity, yet within minutes of them losing they were already working on other ways to gain independence asap.

His opposition to the SNP and them having a place in government is that they are anti-Union and their sole interest in being part of a Labour led coalition is to break up the Union. Don't see how him being anti-SNP means he's against Scottish people having a voice, or even Scottish MP's being part of government.

The only way I can see us preventing a break up of the Union is going federal, but unfortunately neither Labour or the Tories are interested in that option.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 17:52:15
The only way I can see us preventing a break up of the Union is going federal, but unfortunately neither Labour or the Tories are interested in that option.

Yet. As you yourself pointed out (and Harold Wilson before you), a week is a long time in politics.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 18:33:40
BBC journo on radio 4 in swindon tonight.

To Merlin Landlord: "Who do you think will win tomorrow?".

Landlord: "Swindon, as they are playing Sheffield United".



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 18:35:51
Did I miss something? How did Cameron renege on the deal that was offered to Scotland? How is he flip-flopping?

The SNP are the ones that reneged, they made it clear the referendum was a once in a generation opportunity, yet within minutes of them losing they were already working on other ways to gain independence asap.

His opposition to the SNP and them having a place in government is that they are anti-Union and their sole interest in being part of a Labour led coalition is to break up the Union. Don't see how him being anti-SNP means he's against Scottish people having a voice, or even Scottish MP's being part of government.

The only way I can see us preventing a break up of the Union is going federal, but unfortunately neither Labour or the Tories are interested in that option.

I won't disagree with any of the points you make.  But in answer to your question, one minute he (Cameron) is telling the Scots that they're an integral part of the UK and that they should play a pivotal part in shaping its future; and the next he's portraying the expression of their democratic wishes as an apocalypse.  (Don't know about you, but the strongest theme that I have picked up on from the Tory campaign is the aversion to a Labour/SNP tie up.)

In my book, that's a flip-flop of epic proportions.  If he wants the Scots to remain in the UK, he has to treat them as grown ups (as he said he would before the Referendum).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 18:37:08
Don't see how him being anti-SNP means he's against Scottish people having a voice, or even Scottish MP's being part of government.
Because the SNP are going to take Scotland by a landslide if the polls are even half right so by definition he's set his face against the voice of the Scottish people and pre-declared he's opposed to their MPs being part of government


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 18:49:06
Independence. It's independence.

Sorted for you Audrey.      :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Fucking big touche !


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 18:59:18
Because the SNP are going to take Scotland by a landslide if the polls are even half right so by definition he's set his face against the voice of the Scottish people and pre-declared he's opposed to their MPs being part of government

Not sure how that is any different to the SNP being willing to do anything to block a Tory government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 18:59:35
If I was Scottish I'd vote snp. Hardly surprising they are doing so well up there. As an Englishman and resident I would like some of the benefits they already get that we dont.

Gonna be close overall and I reckon Swindon will be split, Tories winning the north and Labour the south.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 18:59:46
BBC journo on radio 4 in swindon tonight.

To Merlin Landlord: "Who do you think will win tomorrow?".

Landlord: "Swindon, as they are playing Sheffield United".



 :clap:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 19:05:28
Gonna be close overall and I reckon Swindon will be split, Tories winning the north and Labour the south.

That's interesting.  I've not lived in Swindon for a long time, but when I did South Swindon (incl Old Town, the Lawns, Liden etc.) was definitely seen as more likely to vote Tory than North Swindon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 19:10:57
That's interesting.  I've not lived in Swindon for a long time, but when I did South Swindon (incl Old Town, the Lawns, Liden etc.) was definitely seen as more likely to vote Tory than North Swindon.
I'm not sure where they draw the line in terms of north-south divide. North had a pretty big margin last time that I don't think Labour can overhaul. But in the south it was closer and Anne Snelgrove has been running a busy campaign. I think she will edge out Buckland.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 19:48:33
Buckland had a 5% swing in 2010 (3,500 votes). The reorganisation of constituency boundaries certainly helped the Tories. It'll be close, no doubt, but that's a lot for Labour to win back.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 19:49:43
And over this side of town I've seen or heard nothing from Snelgrove but plenty from Buckland.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: joteddyred on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 20:20:34
And over this side of town I've seen or heard nothing from Snelgrove but plenty from Buckland.

Same in the North.  I don't even remember the name of the labour candidate.  Mark something?

I think Justin Tomlinson is pretty safe over here.  He had a good margin last time and as politicians go he seems a reasonable chap and his campaign has been far stronger.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 20:35:17
Some of today's front pages.  So much for a free press.

Why is it that the multi-billionaire owners of these newspapers openly hate the top-rate-tax-rising, non-dom-abolishing, mansion-taxing, Leveson-supporting Labour party...

Just cannot understand why any normal, working person would vote Tory over any of the alternatives.

I wouldn't trust Miliband and his cronies to run a corner shop let alone the country.

Labour used to be the working man's party, but there is more privately educated people in the Labour front bench, than there are in the Tories.

Most of Miliband's 'policies' are soundbites. I've lost count how many things this 'Mansion Tax' is supposed to pay for, and that 'MiliStone' was an absolute joke. They will control immigration... don't make me laugh.

They always say that they are the party of the NHS, but they were the ones who gave GP's a nice big pay rise, and were able to opt-out on out of hours work, which they did, and now you cannot get an appointment within a week, unless you're lucky. And the Welsh Labour party are doing a wonderful job is running the NHS in Wales. The waiting lists are so long that people are moving to England to get treatment quicker.

And do we really want Ed Balls in charge of of the Exchequer. Hell, he cannot even pay someone without bouncing cheques. Don't forget he was an advisor to Brown when he sold most of our gold on the cheap, and has spent the last 5 years having a dig at everything the coalition did, and always being wrong.

And don't forget the last time Labour were in power they left a note saying 'There is no money left'...and Miliband cannot even admit they overspent last time.

The coalition were not perfect, but considering what was left to them, they've done a pretty good job.

Yes, they should stop tax evasion, especially with companies dumping money in tax havens, but that is a world problem and not just in the UK. They also need to simplify the tax rules to stop millionaires exploiting the system, and tax 'advisors' like nothing better to try and save money for their paymasters.

How right is it that millionaire footballers pay only 23% tax on their 'image rights', when they are paid direct to their own company? They can afford to pay a few extra quid into the coffers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 20:57:24
That's interesting.  I've not lived in Swindon for a long time, but when I did South Swindon (incl Old Town, the Lawns, Liden etc.) was definitely seen as more likely to vote Tory than North Swindon.

Think it's pretty much the railway line, so while you do get Old Town and the Lawns, you also get the Parks and Walcott.  Then you have Coleview to Eldene with probably a good mix either way, street by street.

Labour have out leafleted Conservatives in my bit of Eldene, littering buggers.  Shit loads of extra recycling that I need to put out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 21:04:56
Think it's pretty much the railway line, so while you do get Old Town and the Lawns, you also get the Parks and Walcott.  Then you have Coleview to Eldene with probably a good mix either way, street by street.

Labour have out leafleted Conservatives in my bit of Eldene, littering buggers.  Shit loads of extra recycling that I need to put out.

Old Town, isn't particularly Tory.....for example Nadine Watts is a Labour Councillor....the Lib dems have held the Eastcott bits of Old Town for years.  Lawns yes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 21:09:44
The SNP are the ones that reneged, they made it clear the referendum was a once in a generation opportunity, yet within minutes of them losing they were already working on other ways to gain independence asap.

If you watched Scottish Parliament First Minister questions, you'd see that the party that have been talking about another referendum in Scotland aren't the SNP, but Scottish Labour. They're obsessed by the subject, Kezia Dugdale especially.

I don't doubt that SNP's long term view is to try and get another vote for IndependEnce at some point, but short term they just want as many MP's at WM as possible, and good luck to them.

That said if they end up with 45+ seats tomorrow it'll be a great achievement. 50+ unbelievable.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 21:13:03
I wont be voting for any of the clowns. In fact I don't even know who holds the seat where I live.  Having worked for local and central government in my time, labour would be the last people that I would vote for. Having seen their lunacy and incompetence first hand.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 22:30:37
I don't doubt that SNP's long term view is to try and get another vote for IndependEnce at some point, but short term they just want as many MP's at WM as possible, and good luck to them.

The SNP's short term plan is independence. Google Alex Salmond's views on the issue, he doesn't even think a referendum is necessary and that they can just declare independence if they get a majority in the next Scottish parliament elections, for example.

I reckon their ideal result in the election is 50 MP's and a Tory government, which they'll use to push through independence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 06:08:01
BBC journo on radio 4 in swindon tonight.

To Merlin Landlord: "Who do you think will win tomorrow?".

Landlord: "Swindon, as they are playing Sheffield United".


:D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 06:33:49
Nailed it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdhoDrSv7Q8


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 07:03:07
Not one candidate or their supporters bothered to knock on my door for my views, not too sure if i can be bothered to vote at all!!  Couldn't vote for Tomlinson in Swindon North after he refused to answer my e-mails about the poor service at my doctor's surgery, his original statement was that they had poured "millions upon millions" into the local NHS service but refused to reply despite reminders when I asked him why it was I was quoted five weeks to see a doctor yet my local surgery has a half-day closing!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 07:51:52
I keep getting flyers from Labour about saving the NHS.

One of the Tory threats to the NHS they list is "waiting lists at their highest levels for six years".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that would be 2009 - after 12 years of Labour running and spending money on the NHS?

They are also guaranteeing cancer tests/results in a week and GP appointments within 48 hours. What happens if these guarantees are broken? Do I get compensation? Can I sue Labour for breach of contract and damages?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 08:18:43
I keep getting flyers from Labour about saving the NHS.

One of the Tory threats to the NHS they list is "waiting lists at their highest levels for six years".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that would be 2009 - after 12 years of Labour running and spending money on the NHS?

They are also guaranteeing cancer tests/results in a week and GP appointments within 48 hours. What happens if these guarantees are broken? Do I get compensation? Can I sue Labour for breach of contract and damages?

Dislike Labour.

But.....if the big corp (Tory mates) pay tax in full (on time) we could build a lot of extra hospitals etc etc etc.

Swings and magic roundabouts.

I hate them all..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 08:29:43
Dislike Labour.

But.....if the big corp (Tory mates) pay tax in full (on time) we could build a lot of extra hospitals etc etc etc.

Swings and magic roundabouts.

I hate them all..

Yeah but tax evasion has only been going on since 2010, that why Labour want to do something about it now instead of when they had the chance previously...

This did make me chuckle http://www.shotdeadinthehead.com/politicians-t-shirt.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 08:36:19
Yeah but tax evasion has only been going on since 2010, that why Labour want to do something about it now instead of when they had the chance previously...

This did make me chuckle http://www.shotdeadinthehead.com/politicians-t-shirt.html

Or the Tories before that....and...and..and...

As I said, I hate them all.

Old Tory tradition....I would rather eat a bowl of shit from the Tories than three off labour....it's still shit!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 08:43:26
Or the Tories before that....and...and..and...

As I said, I hate them all.

Old Tory tradition....I would rather eat a bowl of shit from the Tories than three off labour....it's still shit!

Indeed although I will have a wander down the street later to exercise my right to be constitutionally ignored. 30 year old career politician getting in here for Labour, cannot find any evidence of a 'real' job on her CV - should be interesting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JayBox325 on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 08:47:03
http://t.co/1y38A55ByN

Enjoy. Post your politician faces please.

Here's my Ed Miliband face:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CEW9wHjWIAAKOOk.jpg:large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 08:58:48
Indeed although I will have a wander down the street later to exercise my right to be constitutionally ignored. 30 year old career politician getting in here for Labour, cannot find any evidence of a 'real' job on her CV - should be interesting.

Or milliband.....or the eaton rifles ....Cameron etc


Title: Re:
Post by: Honkytonk on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 09:39:36
We've had a Tory rising star parachuted into our constituency to replace the retiring Tory MP who went to so few debates I don't think he actually realised he was one. The new cocknut used to be one of Cameron's PR guys and has been here all of 5 weeks but proclaims to be local. Him and all his cronies came in the pub a while back and the question was put to him as to why he thinks he represents us and what he understands about our day to day lives and he replied that 'driving around my new constituency I've used a lot of petrol in the Range Rover. It's bigger than I thought.'

Dick.

Should probably add we're a safe Tory seat in these parts. Too many rich ex-city types or stuck-in-the-mud locals to not be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 10:05:13
Quite busy down at eldene community centre where I've just done my voting.
Even if it's only to spoil the paper, people should make the effort I think.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 10:17:22
Quite busy down at eldene community centre where I've just done my voting.
Even if it's only to spoil the paper, people should make the effort I think.
So many people don't bother and then go on and moan about the price of living and taxes etc.

If you don't vote then you have no right to complain about the cost of living/petrol/anything really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bedford Red on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 11:39:54
Just been to vote in Bedford, it was really busy in my polling station.

We have the most things to vote on here i think, i had 4 different votes -

General Election
Local Council
Elected Mayor
Yes or No Referendum on 15.8% rise in police costs in Council Tax

Some people also have a 5th vote, as Parish Council elections are today here as well.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 11:51:06
So many people don't bother and then go on and moan about the price of living and taxes etc.

If you don't vote then you have no right to complain about the cost of living/petrol/anything really.

Unwittingly you've just conceded that voting makes no difference. All it does is allow you the right to "complain".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Simon Pieman on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 12:20:16
Voting is just one form of being politically active. Never got my head around the no vote = no right to complain argument.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 12:20:32
If you don't vote then you have no right to complain about the cost of living/petrol/anything really.

In my book you have more right to complain than those that voted the fookers in.

Sorry if I repeat myself FB'ers, but I refuse to vote for a party on the basis of being the least shit when they have policies I fundamentally disagree with.

I do recognise the right to vote is important, so I walked to the polling station and spoiled my paper with "none"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 12:26:44
(http://descrier.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/none-of-the-above-428x181.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 12:30:10
In my book you have more right to complain than those that voted the fookers in.

Sorry if I repeat myself FB'ers, but I refuse to vote for a party on the basis of being the least shit when they have policies I fundamentally disagree with.

I do recognise the right to vote is important, so I walked to the polling station and spoiled my paper with "none"

Yes, not voting, particularly in large numbers, has its own merits and is in itself a form of protest. There's nothing politicians like better than a high turnout because it legitimises their system.

A classic example of this is the very low turnout, and exceptionally high number of spoiled ballot papers, with Police Crime Commissioners - an exercise which is now widely seen as a failure due to the lack of interest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 12:32:43
So many people don't bother and then go on and moan about the price of living and taxes etc.

If you don't vote then you have no right to complain about the cost of living/petrol/anything really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jnf9GILjFM

(Although, I have actually voted)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 15:54:36
I have put my X down, mind you, it helps when you live next door to the polling station :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 15:57:04
I'm too fucking thick to vote, apparently.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 15:59:51
I have put my X down, mind you, it helps when you live next door to the polling station :)
We live 20 yards from a polling station but we can't vote at that one because we are not in that ward! had to drive a mile to vote at our allocated one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 17:03:13
Just voted, mind finally made up by getting home to yet more negative campaigning from the Lib Dems about having to vote for them to stop the Tories. I loathe negative campaigning and they've built their campaign on it here rather than selling themselves. It lost them my vote at least.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 17:19:31
I'm too fucking thick to vote, apparently.

Not too fucking thick to vote, but Scottish politics seems to be a little too much for you at present.

Love you really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 17:30:35
Ah well, who really gives a fuck about the sweaties?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 17:37:24
Westminster might next week!  Hopefully not though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: stfc1975 on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 17:39:10
Westminster might next week!  Hopefully not though.

1-3 Town Luongo and 2 strikers. COYR.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: FreddySTFC! on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 17:51:14
1-3 Town Luongo and 2 strikers. COYR.
Ha ha. I see what you've done there  :clap:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:11:23
Exit poll is a huge late swing back to the Tories who might break 300 seats...they could even retain the current coalition if this is correct, although the Lib Dems are even worse than predicted- 10 seats! Big contrast with the last opinion polls which had Labour moving slightly ahead.

It's going to be an interesting night.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:12:37
It's going to be an interesting night.

It'll be the Tories.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:13:14
It'll be the Tories.

Yes, but by how much really, really matters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:15:41
Yes, but by how much really, really matters.

You know how it's going to go... Go to bed, it's not worth the tiredness :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:18:01
Paddy Ashdown says if that exit poll is correct he'll eat his hat on the Andrew Neil show. Ha ha, quality.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:20:34
Fuck me, don't think anyone saw this coming. Exit polls are normally pretty accurate.

Clegg and the Lib Dems are history if this is remotely correct


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:22:06
SNP on 58 too- that's literally all but one seat they're standing in.

Harriet Harman trying to claim that the Conservatives winning 319 seats would undermine the legitimacy of the coalition. No, that's just silly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:22:10
The lib dems will be in power again, if the exit poll is right, you mean.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:22:44
The lib dems will be in power again, if the exit poll is right, you mean.

Not under Clegg they won't, if they're down to 10 seats, not a chance is Clegg one of them, his seat is marginal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:23:08
SNP on 58 too- that's literally all but one seat they're standing in.

Harriet Harman trying to claim that the Conservatives winning 319 seats would undermine the legitimacy of the coalition. No, that's just silly.

Harriet Harman is a complete and utter moron. And she's proving it quite well right now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:23:52
Not under Clegg they won't, if they're down to 10 seats, not a chance is Clegg one of them, his seat is marginal.

Yep, not disagreeing, which is why I said LD's and not Clegg.

Not getting carried away with an exit poll though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:25:35
The lib dems will be in power again, if the exit poll is right, you mean.

The Tories could easily go to the SDUP,  or whatever that Irish lot are called, to make up the difference. The 2 parties are pretty close politically


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:26:26
True.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JoeMezz on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:28:33
I can't see conservatives getting this many seats... surely


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:29:04
YouGov have: Con 284 seat, Lab 263, SNP 48, LibDem 31

Which is much closer to the pre-election predictions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:43:30
Only 6000 polled on that one I think, but yep much more in line with pre election thoughts. 10 non SNP scottish seats a bit more believable too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:47:41
Yougov figures a 'forecast' not an exit poll.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:51:15
Sunderland announce after 49 minutes.

The Lib Dems lost their deposit, massively. UKIP beat the Tories too, but obviously it's a huge Labour majority.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 21:54:03
1-0 to the Miliband... It's a marathon not a sprint.

Bloody mackems, there's no telling 'em.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:04:20
What is Sunderland South's obsession with being the first? It doesn't make their MP any more important.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JoeMezz on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:05:35
They always try and beat Newcastle don't they?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:07:11
They always try and beat Newcastle don't they?

Never in doubt after Newcastle installed John Carver as presiding officer


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:08:08
What is Sunderland South's obsession with being the first? It doesn't make their MP any more important.

Tradizione mio amico, tradizione.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JoeMezz on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:08:37
Never in doubt after Newcastle installed John Carver as presiding officer

He's the best officer in the country


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:42:29
For fans of prominent politicians failing, early rumours suggest that Clegg, Balls and Farage may all lose tonight. Which would be quite funny really.

Edit: and potentially Galloway, that would be a real silver lining.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 23:06:35
Who's Galloway?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 23:10:26
That would be funny seeing George G kicked out on his arse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 23:32:24
Swindon North stays Conservative, Justin Tomlinson keeps his seat.

Edit: Blimey, swing to the Tories as well. If Swindon N is still a bellweather seat, this exit poll just took a big step towards reality. The Lib Dems have currently lost four deposits out of four.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, May 8, 2015, 00:04:53
Not content with killing the nhs and public services, the Tories have killed the lib dems too. Not that it comes as a surprise.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dostoyevsky on Friday, May 8, 2015, 00:47:14
Whatever the outcome the Zionist scum fucking maggots retain power. Enjoy the illusion. If you want to know who runs you, ask who it is you can't criticize. The nest of vipers are loving this.  :bye:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 00:49:24
Evening Dosser, what cider were you on tonight?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dostoyevsky on Friday, May 8, 2015, 00:50:54
At least the Russians kicked the odious ones out. How you can give credence to this is beyond my willingness for sympathy. Out with the oligarchichal nation wrecking scumbags


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 00:52:40
I'm not the biggest fan of our ruling elites, but you'll have to go some to convince me Russia are better off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dostoyevsky on Friday, May 8, 2015, 00:53:22
I am on aldi beer to cope with this charade. How r u? These BBC whores furthering Zionist agendas


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dostoyevsky on Friday, May 8, 2015, 00:56:47
Russia are bad off mate, however you have to go through bad times to emerge into better ones. Saddened what these fucking oligarchs did to Ukraine and brought us onto their joy ride. It is all blather. I still watch it like a better. I must be insane


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Friday, May 8, 2015, 01:01:17
If you want to know who runs you, ask who it is you can't criticize.

Stephen Fry?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dostoyevsky on Friday, May 8, 2015, 01:19:53
That cunt Fry is the biggest covert Zionist cunt of them all. Shun the mainstream. Election results coming in now, so I will be silent. Russia is our only hope and when they clear the scum away we will realize our idiocy. Not long now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dostoyevsky on Friday, May 8, 2015, 01:22:10
No limp wristed shite there, they stand up in the face of parisitical scum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 01:24:50
Ever been to Russia Dosser?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dostoyevsky on Friday, May 8, 2015, 03:57:03
Many times and I take no NATO shite. It is a great honor. Long live STFC, and kick politics out of football and also the self eating activist parties


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Friday, May 8, 2015, 04:27:41
Well swindon north and south is blue...

Tories on course to be a major force but maybe without a majority.

Lib demos well and truly fucked with Clegg having to resign I reckon.

Haven't looked closely but I don't think UKIP have a seat yet?

SNP trounce labour in Scotland....

Plaid out Cymroo or whatever trying to better LibDems in worst results...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 8, 2015, 06:55:45
Cleggy may have retained his seat, but he is finished. Mwhahahahahaha.

Now can that massive Bellend Ferage lose his seat, and Ed Balls for that matter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 8, 2015, 07:17:03
I'm going to have to give credit where it's due to Kingston Robin.  In the Duke of Wellington last night (great meet up by the way...around 30 London Reds, superb atmosphere), he made the prediction before the game that the Tories would scrape a majority.  We all thought he was mad.  Didn't see this coming at all.

So his head doesn't get too big though, you have to balance that by noting KR's musings on the rotation policy not working were way off.   ;)  It's worked a treat.  That team performance during the final 60 minutes was fresh and energetic.  Fair play to Mark Cooper.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Leggett on Friday, May 8, 2015, 07:21:19
Cleggy may have retained his seat, but he is finished. Mwhahahahahaha.

Now can that massive Bellend Ferage lose his seat, and Ed Balls for that matter.

Forage never had a seat to lose!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 8, 2015, 07:30:34
I'm going to have to give credit where it's due to Kingston Robin.  In the Duke of Wellington last night (great meet up by the way...around 30 London Reds, superb atmosphere), he made the prediction before the game that the Tories would scrape a majority.  We all thought he was mad.  Didn't see this coming at all.


Well played sutton.

---

Balls out?|


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 8, 2015, 07:30:53
Forage never had a seat to lose!

Fair point! - fails to win then..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, May 8, 2015, 08:04:52
This is a terrible day for Britain and for Swindon. People are so gullible and selfish.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 8, 2015, 08:13:24
Well that was somewhat unexpected, no idea what the hell happened with the polls although it suggests that when asked prior to an election people are embarrassed to say they will vote Tory?

Balls losing his seat will possibly remain as the Portillo moment of the night? Must admit that it made me laugh, not due to any political reasons he just always comes across as a belligerent bully.

So where does politics go from here, Cooper in at Labour, Farron at Lib Dems (Clegg proved even more toxic than anyone imagined), someone more media acceptable at UKIP?

There seems to be much on social media about the failings in the voting system, it is crap but we had our chance in 2010 and the public bottled it!

An unfettered Tory government - possibly will make people realise that the Lib Dems being there had been a good thing......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 08:25:42
Balls gone, Miliband dead in the water, Clegg even deader in the water, Cable and Alexander gone along with 80% of the Lib Dems generally. Farage will make it 3 out of 4 main parties seeking a new leader.

For better or for worse (and I know which I think) we're about to see how much of a calming influence the Lib Dems actually were in the coalition. Cameron is going to have pretty much free reign for a while at least.

Most depressingly of all Lynton Crosby's repetitive messages and negative campaigning worked in a big way, so we can look forward to the next election being just as shit as this one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, May 8, 2015, 08:29:13
For those of you waking up to the results, here's a handy guide to what this election result actually means for the UK:

Welfare- gone
legal aid- gone
Rich- richer
Poor- poorer
Housing- crisis
Charity- cuts
NHS- sold

Bravo Tory voters, bravo. Maggie would be proud of you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, May 8, 2015, 08:33:35
The lib dems being punished for being in a coalition with the Tories has seen the Tories benefit from it hugely. That's the madness of it.

I'm gonna have to take up hunt sabbing by the looks of it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 08:45:49
fox or peasant hunting?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, May 8, 2015, 08:58:55
Most depressingly of all Lynton Crosby's repetitive messages and negative campaigning worked in a big way, so we can look forward to the next election being just as shit as this one.

Not sure why Labour saying vote Tory and they'll destroy the NHS is any different from the Tories saying vote Lab/SNP and they would destroy the country. Or the SNP's main policy being keep the Tories out at any cost.

Problem is that negative campaigning works. Lib Dems were more positive than others and look at what happened to them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:04:11
Problem is that negative campaigning works. Lib Dems were more positive than others and look at what happened to them.

Perhaps Labour and Libs could try this next time then:


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:08:26
Lin dems campaigning strategy was irrelevant. They sold out an absolutely key policy promise during the coalition. there isn't any coming back from a distinct lack of trust.

voters felt betrayed and couldn't see past this, me included, but I'm sure they also did provide checks and balances on some bad Tory ideas too.

nobody really expected an outright Tory win this time. it's a bit worrying though the small majority and the looming Europe referendum sized wedge may keep them sane with luck


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:15:21
If people are that riled by the winners, stop watching tv, close Facebook and have a fucking riot. The political class have it too easy and the populace seems only capable of moaning.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:20:36
Taxes will go up in the next budget. Best start tightening our belts now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:29:19
So the Scots voted for more of a say and a bit of Uk wide power but lost some good MP's and gained a 20 year old Student. England said no fucking way and switched back to voting Tory in such numbers that it stopped them getting it.

It's caused a right pickle all around.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:31:10
If people are that riled by the winners, stop watching tv, close Facebook and have a fucking riot. The political class have it too easy and the populace seems only capable of moaning.

I agree with the spirit of that idea (ie do something constructive to change things instead of moaning) if not the actual rioting bit.

A Tory majority means boundary changes that will mean Tory govts (majority or Coalition) forever. I don't think that's a good thing for the vast majority of people but what can you do to change things? Whether I like it or not (and I really don't) that's what people have voted for. And I do believe in democracy. Even though most people must clearly be  bellends  delusional, voting those cunts in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:37:59
Farage lost. Every gigantic sky full of storm clouds has a silver lining.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jimmy_onions on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:38:56
the disparity between number of seats and number of votes is amazing (SNP, 56 seats, 1.4m votes, UKIP, 3.8m votes, 1seat).
Its has obviously always been like this but cant say I have noticed before.
First past the post is ok for a two party dominated system, but I think there is a decent argument for PR right now...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jimmy_onions on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:39:53
oh, and I am a bellend.
Apparently.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:41:51
Taxes will go up in the next budget. Best start tightening our belts now.
Didn't Cameron say he was going to pass a law preventing tax rises?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:43:06
 The next 5 years is going to be about the brerak up of the UK and the Tory right's hope for a withdrawal form the EU...

 ...not going to be pretty.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: lambourn red on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:44:46
oh, and I am a bellend.
Apparently.

Im a happy bellend as well


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:46:09
Quote
oh, and I am a bellend.
Apparently.
was that UKIP profile you on Twitter? haha.

wait, I called farage a bellend, are you Nigel Farage?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:50:33
Thank you Nicola Sturgeon we couldn`t have done it without you xxxx


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jimmy_onions on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:51:53
The next 5 years is going to be about the brerak up of the UK and the Tory right's hope for a withdrawal form the EU...

 ...not going to be pretty.

So far the arguments have been all very one sided, e.g nothing but scaremongering from the anti europe brigade; Europe being a huge bureaucratic drain on the country etc...the pro Europe brigade need to up their game and start extolling the virtues of staying in.

(do I win a prize for the use of the word extolling?)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:52:05
Al Murrays reaction :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jimmy_onions on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:53:21
was that UKIP profile you on Twitter? haha.

wait, I called farage a bellend, are you Nigel Farage?

yes, thats me.
And did you know how many people with aids there are that come to this country for treatment?
Makes me sick.
Almost as sick as them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:59:12
:)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:01:16
yes, thats me.
And did you know how many people with aids there are that come to this country for treatment?
Makes me sick.
Almost as sick as them.
what the fuck


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:17:30
The Thatcher non society is really coming to fruition now. People that are doing ok at the moment and are only interested in themselves have voted accordingly. Many of these people will learn the hard way that they have made a big mistake.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jimmy_onions on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:30:29
There seems to be an awful lot of preaching on here. And plenty predicting immediate Armageddon.
Just because someone votes tory doesn't automatically mean they are a fox hunt loving, banker bonus encouraging, europe hating, immigrant bashing, welfare cutting, nhs dismantling, young child hating (saw this on twitter), nazi.
It just that in some peoples eyes, when looking at the alternatives, happens to be the best choice this time around.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:43:44
Nige and Clegg resigned then.

Paul Hart bookies fav for the lib dem job


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:47:52
Looking forward to a federal Scotland that will redress the natural order, with the labour party making a come back as the sweaties realise that it will cost them hard cash.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:52:22
There seems to be an awful lot of preaching on here. And plenty predicting immediate Armageddon.
Just because someone votes tory doesn't automatically mean they are a fox hunt loving, banker bonus encouraging, europe hating, immigrant bashing, welfare cutting, nhs dismantling, young child hating (saw this on twitter), nazi.
It just that in some peoples eyes, when looking at the alternatives, happens to be the best choice this time around.

I know a few Tories and that pretty much somes up their outlook.....as for their voters, they probably need to hold at least 4 or 5 of these views.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:58:08
There seems to be an awful lot of preaching on here. And plenty predicting immediate Armageddon.
Just because someone votes tory doesn't automatically mean they are a fox hunt loving, banker bonus encouraging, europe hating, immigrant bashing, welfare cutting, nhs dismantling, young child hating (saw this on twitter), nazi.
It just that in some peoples eyes, when looking at the alternatives, happens to be the best choice this time around.

Yeah agreed but you just voted for a party that has many MPs who support exactly those things

(Probably not the young child-hating or nazi bit to be fair)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:59:34
There seems to be an awful lot of preaching on here. And plenty predicting immediate Armageddon.
Just because someone votes tory doesn't automatically mean they are a fox hunt loving, banker bonus encouraging, europe hating, immigrant bashing, welfare cutting, nhs dismantling, young child hating (saw this on twitter), nazi.

maybe not. But they've voted for a party that are.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 8, 2015, 11:02:01
Miliband was unelectable, arriba.  The votes had to go somewhere.  I really think that it's that simple.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Friday, May 8, 2015, 11:02:53
maybe not. But they've voted for a party that are.

Not in every case, there are plenty of people who didn't vote for the tories as such, but just couldn't take the risk of letting Tweedledum and Tweedledee control the UK's purse strings.

And voting Tory was the only real way of voting against Labour and there awful anti recovery fckn policies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Friday, May 8, 2015, 11:24:29
There seems to be an awful lot of preaching on here. And plenty predicting immediate Armageddon.
Just because someone votes tory doesn't automatically mean they are a fox hunt loving, banker bonus encouraging, europe hating, immigrant bashing, welfare cutting, nhs dismantling, young child hating (saw this on twitter), nazi.
It just that in some peoples eyes, when looking at the alternatives, happens to be the best choice this time around.

Agreed.  Those that are saying that those voting tory have dropped the country in the shit and will regret the vote maybe right, but perhaps they should take a look at what the alternatives were before chucking rocks.  I would guess the majority of the "bellends" that voted this lot in voted for them because of the lack of decent alternatives rather than they fully supported their entire manifesto.

The best of a bad bunch has won IMO.  Too much of a risk to stick Labour in charge of our coffers for another 5 years.  Come back with a solid plan, and a leader we can get behind and I have no doubts that the "don't feel there is a better choice" voter will swing back to Labour..  Labour haven't done that this time around...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, May 8, 2015, 11:33:03
I'm satisfied with the result. Although, I did not expect a Tory majority and probably would've preferred another coalition.

Whilst my views generally sit somewhere to the left of centre, the thought of Labour undoing years of austerity by increasing spending frankly scared me. Economically it was the best outcome.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, May 8, 2015, 11:38:53
Think a lot of people were primarily worried about the SNP being in government, Miliband and Balls to a lesser degree.

The biggest issue we've got now is Scotland, more so than the economy. Appears the chances of some form of federal system being implemented are growing, Boris and other senior Tories talking about it. Depends on whether Cameron is up for it, the majority and support the Tories got gives him the mandate to do something radical. Plus all the other parties are in tatters.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 11:45:37
I'm satisfied with the result. Although, I did not expect a Tory majority and probably would've preferred another coalition.

Whilst my views generally sit somewhere to the left of centre, the thought of Labour undoing years of austerity by increasing spending frankly scared me. Economically it was the best outcome.

Was it though? Even if you accept that the Tories are more economically literate in running the domestic economy, the EU referendum is going to cause huge uncertainty and if we do vote to leave, that's going to cause huge economic turmoil. And with a small majority, Cameron's backbenchers are not going to let him not hold that, and probably not even campaign in favour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 8, 2015, 11:47:00
Any federal arrangement would need to involve fiscal autonomy for the Scots to go for it.  The stand out message of this election is that Scotland wishes to follow a different path fiscally to England.  As you say, much of this hinges on Cameron, Johnson and Osborne.  They may decide to fight for a federal arrangement in which some ties with Scotland are retained...or they may decide that an amicable separation is in everyone's best interest.  If they come to the latter conclusion, I think things could move quite quickly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, May 8, 2015, 11:54:13
Was it though? Even if you accept that the Tories are more economically literate in running the domestic economy, the EU referendum is going to cause huge uncertainty and if we do vote to leave, that's going to cause huge economic turmoil. And with a small majority, Cameron's backbenchers are not going to let him not hold that, and probably not even campaign in favour.

We're not going to be leaving the EU. Cameron will get some concessions - Juncker has said there is some wiggle room and the rest of the EU don't want us to leave. Plus the economy will have recovered a lot more by the time of the vote, which will lessen the negativity towards the EU even more.

We do need the discussion and the vote though, if only to put it to bed for a while.

They may decide to fight for a federal arrangement in which some ties with Scotland are retained...or they may decide that an amicable separation is in everyone's best interest.  If they come to the latter conclusion, I think things could move quite quickly.

The important thing is that a long term solution is found and then implemented in a controlled manner so everyone knows what they're getting in advance. Would have been chaos if they'd voted yes in the referendum. Don't think it really makes that much difference to the rest of the UK and especially England in the long run (I reckon we'd be better off) but we need to make sure it's done right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, May 8, 2015, 12:02:50
Was it though? Even if you accept that the Tories are more economically literate in running the domestic economy, the EU referendum is going to cause huge uncertainty and if we do vote to leave, that's going to cause huge economic turmoil. And with a small majority, Cameron's backbenchers are not going to let him not hold that, and probably not even campaign in favour.

In the grandest scheme of things, yes. I know it's not what you're really saying, but electing an economically illiterate government on the basis that they would've saved us from a Yes/No vote on the EU would've been bonkers.

I'm quite open to the EU referendum, because I don't think we'd vote to leave. Yes there will be some uncertainty in the markets but the fact we don't have a pegged currency will soften things somewhat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 12:17:25
So, we all know FPTP is a flawed system, but what chance electoral reform now?

Some stats from today, number of votes per seat for each party:

UKIP 3.8m (one seat)
Green 1.2m (one seat)
Lib Dems 300k (eight seats)
Plaid 60,000 (three seats)
Labour 40,000 (229)
Conservatives 34,000 (325)
SNP 26,700 (56)

It's a funny old form of democracy, isn't it? Not suggesting that full PR would be a great idea, but there are things between the two...



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, May 8, 2015, 12:54:23
Whilst my views generally sit somewhere to the left of centre, the thought of Labour undoing years of austerity by increasing spending frankly scared me. Economically it was the best outcome.

I think a lot of people share your view on that. What I don't understand is that despite all the austerity, the deficit is higher than it was in 2010 and so is the national debt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Simon Pieman on Friday, May 8, 2015, 13:11:03
I think a lot of people share your view on that. What I don't understand is that despite all the austerity, the deficit is higher than it was in 2010 and so is the national debt.

The state of the economy is to blame. Less tax revenues.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 8, 2015, 13:16:59
Bored of the austerity debate now - it just doesn't work. What did Attlee do after WW2 when the country had a national debt of over 250% of GDP? He started the biggest public spend in years including the NHS, privatising the railways and investing in infrastructure.

Austerity is not the answer.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/2013-04-03/austerity-delusion

http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/17593/austerity_doesnt_work

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/its-official-austerity-economics-doesnt-work


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 8, 2015, 13:41:26
So, we all know FPTP is a flawed system, but what chance electoral reform now?

Some stats from today, number of votes per seat for each party:

UKIP 3.8m (one seat)
Green 1.2m (one seat)
Lib Dems 300k (eight seats)
Plaid 60,000 (three seats)
Labour 40,000 (229)
Conservatives 34,000 (325)
SNP 26,700 (56)

It's a funny old form of democracy, isn't it? Not suggesting that full PR would be a great idea, but there are things between the two...



It is a flawed system now, however it has always been a flawed system and there seemed to be less complaint about how bad it was for democracy when Labour were winning elections?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 13:43:37
It is a flawed system now, however it has always been a flawed system and there seemed to be less complaint about how bad it was for democracy when Labour were winning elections?

Can't speak for others but I've never been a fan. Rise of smaller parties is clearly a huge issue with it though, it's fine for a two party system but not when you have 5-6 parties potentially in contention.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, May 8, 2015, 13:46:12
Bored of the austerity debate now - it just doesn't work. What did Attlee do after WW2 when the country had a national debt of over 250% of GDP? He started the biggest public spend in years including the NHS, privatising the railways and investing in infrastructure.

Austerity is not the answer.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/2013-04-03/austerity-delusion

http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/17593/austerity_doesnt_work

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/its-official-austerity-economics-doesnt-work

But after WW2 the private sector wasn't mortgaged up to the eyeballs, rolling in credit card debt. 2009 was a balance sheet recession and had much more to do with private sector debt levels than the business cycle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_sheet_recession

Sure, we could've tried spending our way out of it to encourage growth so that the private sector could carry on feeling comfortable about the level of debt they were shouldering. But the next crash would've been inevitable and even deeper.

It would've taken longer to recover too. Part of my dislike of Labour's economic plan was that they wanted to reduce the deficit reduction rate to 1/5th of what the Tories plan. Cuts aren't nice for anybody, but I'd much rather a decade of cuts than multiple decades of stagnant growth (see: Japan).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 8, 2015, 14:37:17
Thanks for the Wiki link that confirmed my point,.

Quote
In Krugman's view, balance sheet recessions require private sector debt reduction strategies (e.g., mortgage refinancing) combined with higher government spending to offset declines from the private sector as it pays down its debt, writing in July 2014: "Unlike a financial panic, a balance sheet recession can’t be cured simply by restoring confidence: no matter how confident they may be feeling, debtors can’t spend more if their creditors insist they cut back. So offsetting the economic downdraft from a debt overhang requires concrete action, which can in general take two forms: fiscal stimulus and debt relief. That is, the government can step in to spend because the private sector can’t, and it can also reduce private debts to allow the debtors to spend again. Unfortunately, we did too little of the first and almost none of the second."[4]


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, May 8, 2015, 15:25:28
Ha, perhaps I should've read it before I posted the link :D

I stand by my opinion though, eventually the government will have to reduce the deficit. I've got more on this but have to go into a meeting now so I'll respond later.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 8, 2015, 15:40:24
The best way to reduce the deficit is for the government to invest in areas where we will see a return on the money and therefore grow the economy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, May 8, 2015, 16:07:56
The next 5 years is going to be about the brerak up of the UK and the Tory right's hope for a withdrawal form the EU...

 ...not going to be pretty.

Sorry, who gave the Scots devolution?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, May 8, 2015, 16:09:52
Im a happy bellend as well
Me too. Oh look, all those 24 carat gold bars tucked under my bed just doubled overnight.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, May 8, 2015, 16:22:26
Me too. Oh look, all those 24 carat gold bars tucked under my bed just doubled overnight.

If you had shares in the major banks you would have done pretty well this morning too eh.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, May 8, 2015, 16:26:48
Not sure what I should do, I better stick to the lazy stereotype apparently all of us voted Tory are meant to adhere to though.

Probably go fox hunting then find an immigrate or someone on welfare to abuse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 8, 2015, 16:28:00
Sorry, who gave the Scits devolution?

Labour, of course, a manifesto pledge, delivered, along with the Welsh Assembly and Power Sharing in Stormont.

The proposed regional assemblies in England, were rejected by the electorate in referendum.

Maybe Cameron will surprise us, and live up to his claim of being a One Nation Tory, and act in the national interest rather than his own and his party interest......I'm not expecting it though


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, May 8, 2015, 16:31:41
Labour, of course, a manifesto pledge, delivered, along with the Welsh Assembly and Power Sharing in Stormont.

The proposed regional assemblies in England, were rejected by the electorate in referendum.

Maybe Cameron will surprise us, and live up to his claim of being a One Nation Tory, and act in the national interest rather than his own and his party interest......I'm not expecting it though


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, May 8, 2015, 16:34:28
Labour, of course, a manifesto pledge, delivered, along with the Welsh Assembly and Power Sharing in Stormont.

The proposed regional assemblies in England, were rejected by the electorate in referendum.

Maybe Cameron will surprise us, and live up to his claim of being a One Nation Tory, and act in the national interest rather than his own and his party interest......I'm not expecting it though

Yes, New Labour Reg, new Labour because they thought it would cement the Scottish people to Labour in perpetuity. That was the thin end of the wedge and you should be careful what you wish for some times shouldn't you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 8, 2015, 16:41:26
Not sure what I should do, I better stick to the lazy stereotype apparently all of us voted Tory are meant to adhere to though.

Probably go fox hunting then find an immigrate or someone on welfare to abuse.

Would being unable to spell correctly comform to stereotype?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, May 8, 2015, 16:42:22
The best way to reduce the deficit is for the government to invest in areas where we will see a return on the money and therefore grow the economy.

Potentially yes, but where are these areas for growth? You used WW2 as an example of where spending helped, but in that case we literally had to rebuild the country which created hundreds of thousands of jobs and created huge demand for industry and manufacturing. Where do we find that now? That's why this "austerity doesn't work" has caused a lot of debate.

It is really a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Growth is (mainly) stimulated by consumer confidence. Consumers feel confident when they've got money to spend and don't have to worry about the debt they hold. With austerity there are cuts to services and jobs which semi-artificially causes the public (private sector) to pay down their debt until they are at a level where we feel confident about our spending. If we go with the "spend our way out" approach you have to create sufficient enough growth to not only encourage growth in the economy through additional jobs, infrastructure, manufacturing etc. but consumers have to be given confidence that they can afford to go out and spend and either maintain or pay down their debt.

We will, at some point, have to reduce the level of government borrowing (the deficit). The government could wait for growth to return before resorting to cutting spending but with a recession that cut so deep and unlike many before, that could take a very long time. Consumers took on a lot of debt unlike in previous bubbles (110% mortgages) which means we'd need a hell of a lot of growth for consumers to feel confident enough to spend. That could take decades. Whilst austerity hurts, it drastically cuts down on the amount of time it would take to get us back into some sort of "normal" economic cycle.

The nature of my job means that I get to listen to a lot of very clever economists. Some are very pro-austerity and some a quite against it. A lot are indifferent. The majority want us to get back to a normal situation as soon as possible and so do I. I don't want years and years of limp growth and tit-for-tat politics where elections are won on the basis of who can manage the deficit the best and squeeze in a few policies rather than having a stable economy and a budget that allows government to run the country as it should be.

Austerity sucks, and it is a bit like cutting off an arm, but it sure beats having to crawl on our hands and knees for the next 20 years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 8, 2015, 16:46:10
I'd start by privatising essential services - the railways, energy companies and water providers. Perhaps start building a couple of hundred thousand houses for the social, that has the double benefit of creating plenty of construction jobs and providing affordable housing/keeping rental prices from rising.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 8, 2015, 17:01:53
I'd start by privatising essential services - the railways, energy companies and water providers. Perhaps start building a couple of hundred thousand houses for the social, that has the double benefit of creating plenty of construction jobs and providing affordable housing/keeping rental prices from rising.

You may not have noticed Jayo, but essential services are already privatised.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 8, 2015, 17:18:38
Would being unable to spell correctly comform to stereotype?
I really hope that is deliberate...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, May 8, 2015, 17:24:52
Would being unable to spell correctly comform to stereotype?

Inability to work predictive text on an iPhone probably would, not sure which is the most technology savy party mind you


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, May 8, 2015, 18:12:37
Not sure what I should do, I better stick to the lazy stereotype apparently all of us voted Tory are meant to adhere to though.

Probably go fox hunting then find an immigrate or someone on welfare to abuse.
which wasn't what people said. Not on here at least unless I missed it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Friday, May 8, 2015, 18:44:37
it is so depressing - anyone with kids has to start saving now to give them any chance of a future. University education will be out of reach for many and owning a house will only be for the wealthy. Generation rent are here for the foreseeable. We used to invest the equivalent of £20 billion a year on building good quality social housing, now we spend the same amount on housing benefit, going straight into the pockets of buy to let landlords, artificially keeping property prices high. All you I'm alright Jack Tory voters can fuck off  - you are, without exception, cunts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, May 8, 2015, 18:48:30
it is so depressing - anyone with kids has to start saving now to give them any chance of a future. University education will be out of reach for many and owning a house will only be for the wealthy. Generation rent are here for the foreseeable. We used to invest the equivalent of £20 billion a year on building good quality social housing, now we spend the same amount on housing benefit, going straight into the pockets of buy to let landlords, artificially keeping property prices high. All you I'm alright Jack Tory voters can fuck off  - you are, without exception, cunts.
I'm a cunt then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 8, 2015, 19:00:02
You may not have noticed Jayo, but essential services are already privatised.

Yeah sorry, obviously not what I meant. What's the opposite of privatisation? :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, May 8, 2015, 19:02:55
Yeah sorry, obviously not what I meant. What's the opposite of privatisation? :)
public service incompetence......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, May 8, 2015, 19:32:08
public service incompetence......
which former public services have improved for their privatisation? look at the state of them.
There is plenty of incompetence where they are concerned. Just look at the reviews the utilities companies get. Look at how they rip the public off.
The trains are expensive and a poor overcrowded unreliable joke still funded by the tax payer.
The remaining public services are having their necks strangled by cut after cut and those that are left will be given away to Tory chums to coin it in soon enough. Money for the fat cats. A dog shit service for the public.

When there's fuck all left to undersell what will be next. A disabled tax?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, May 8, 2015, 19:33:19
The political result of the election night was that horrible patronising piece of shit Ed Balls lose his seat. Its a shame his equally shitstain bitch of a wife didn't as well. Labour seriously need to eliminate the North London intelligentsia and reconnect with their supports. Add to that the Honourable Minister for Baghdad has been voted out as well. Didn't want the Tories in but at least them having the majority should limit the influence the Sweaties will have.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Friday, May 8, 2015, 19:40:10
it is so depressing - anyone with kids has to start saving now to give them any chance of a future. University education will be out of reach for many and owning a house will only be for the wealthy. Generation rent are here for the foreseeable. We used to invest the equivalent of £20 billion a year on building good quality social housing, now we spend the same amount on housing benefit, going straight into the pockets of buy to let landlords, artificially keeping property prices high. All you I'm alright Jack Tory voters can fuck off  - you are, without exception, cunts.



Well on your logic then we would be better off binning democracy altogether.  Sounds like anyone that doesn't agree with your views gets labelled a cunt.  I would have loved to have voted Labour, but they put a twat in charge that nobody with an ounce of grey matter could get behind, had no real plan on how to reduce the deficit and couldn't even admit that they spent well beyond our means in their last stint.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 8, 2015, 19:51:05
public service incompetence......

The East Coast Mainline.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, May 8, 2015, 20:11:35
The East Coast Mainline.
share holders money. Not yours or mine. I'm still a cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 8, 2015, 20:40:36
Yeah sorry, obviously not what I meant. What's the opposite of privatisation? :)
Nationalisation.
share holders money. Not yours or mine. I'm still a cunt.
More taxpayers' money has gone into the railways since they were privatised than when they were in public ownership. And for that we don't even get an affordable public service, but those shareholders are doing very nicely thank you


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, May 8, 2015, 20:54:12
Nationalisation.More taxpayers' money has gone into the railways since they were privatised than when they were in public ownership. And for that we don't even get an affordable public service, but those shareholders are doing very nicely thank you
that's a sweeping statement. The rail companies are losing the agreed government subsidies year on year. Network rail is currently owned by the tax payer so that should make you happy. Can you produce the numbers v punctuality that BR enjoyed v the subsidies and punctuality numbers that the current system has to show? No I doubt that either. I'm still a cunt and for that matter the silent majority that voted for those Tory toffs. It never ceases to amaze me that the bile, envy and hatred espoused by the left when they lose or don't get their way at an election. You never see newspaper comment pages or sites like this and other social mafia outlets driving and groaning with comments from conservative voters. Similar to the religious zealots who always bang in your door to try and convert you to their way of thinking at the most in opportune moments. You font get atheists trying to persuade people coming out of church that goddfoes not exist do you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Friday, May 8, 2015, 21:30:58
it is so depressing - anyone with kids has to start saving now to give them any chance of a future. University education will be out of reach for many and owning a house will only be for the wealthy. Generation rent are here for the foreseeable. We used to invest the equivalent of £20 billion a year on building good quality social housing, now we spend the same amount on housing benefit, going straight into the pockets of buy to let landlords, artificially keeping property prices high. All you I'm alright Jack Tory voters can fuck off  - you are, without exception, cunts.
Bollocks my kids will do what I had to do and work to better themselves.
I did OK out of it and no I didn't go the university, no silver spoon  and no I was never the brightest.
You are on your own whoever governs this Country.

As for the election it was obvious, when you put an absolute prick In charge of the second largest party it will equal a majority. Thank fuck he resigned as if he got into power this Country would have been in serious trouble.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 8, 2015, 21:54:15
it is so depressing - anyone with kids has to start saving now to give them any chance of a future. University education will be out of reach for many and owning a house will only be for the wealthy. Generation rent are here for the foreseeable. We used to invest the equivalent of £20 billion a year on building good quality social housing, now we spend the same amount on housing benefit, going straight into the pockets of buy to let landlords, artificially keeping property prices high. All you I'm alright Jack Tory voters can fuck off  - you are, without exception, cunts.

University tuition fees... first introduced by Labour...much like what's happening with the NHS - Tories wouldn't be where we are now without Labour opening the door for them....

House price inflation.... mainly due to nimby members of the population not wanting new houses built anywhere...

Social housing construction is a problem but no worse than it was 1997-2010....

I haven't and never would vote Tory but blaming them for all that's bad is just not supported by the facts?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, May 8, 2015, 22:53:33
You never see newspaper comment pages or sites like this and other social mafia outlets driving and groaning with comments from conservative voters.

Sorry, can't let that go. Are you fucking kidding me? Take a visit to the Mail online some time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, May 8, 2015, 23:04:10
As for the election it was obvious, when you put an absolute prick In charge of the second largest party it will equal a majority. Thank fuck he resigned as if he got into power this Country would have been in serious trouble.

Out of interest, do you or any other non-Labour voters on here think any of the policies of capping utility bills, breaking up the bigger banks, restricting zero hours contracts, introducing 50% tax rate for higher earners or implementing Leveson could ever have been a good thing? (As we won't get any of them now)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, May 8, 2015, 23:43:27
Out of interest, do you or any other non-Labour voters on here think any of the policies of capping utility bills, breaking up the bigger banks, restricting zero hours contracts, introducing 50% tax rate for higher earners or implementing Leveson could ever have been a good thing? (As we won't get any of them now)

Capping utility bills is one of the stupidest ideas that Miliband came up with. If there are problems with the utility market, there are plenty of other more suitable ways to address them. Price fixing is never a good idea.

Miliband blew the zero hour contracts issue out of proportion to make it an election issue, I suspect he failed. Again, if there is an issue (and it's a big if) with zero hour contracts then there are better ways to deal with it.

But what I really hate about that policy is the state interfering in the job market in a way they shouldn't. If you've got a zero hour contract and don't like it, find another job, if you can't then be grateful for what you've got. The state sticking it's nose in isn't going to magic a job or extra hours/pay out of nowhere.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 00:09:50
Will be interesting to look back at this thread in 5 years time and see where we are as a nation and what this Tory government have done by then.
I can only see it going one way and that isn't the way I'd like it to. An ever growing selfish non society based on greed and division is what I think will continue to grow. I predict a riot!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 01:00:17
Will be interesting to look back at this thread in 5 years time and see where we are as a nation and what this Tory government have done by then.
I can only see it going one way and that isn't the way I'd like it to. An ever growing selfish non society based on greed and division is what I think will continue to grow. I predict a riot!


 It will be most interesting to see if the nation still exists in 5 years.....Cameron will try to buy off the SNP with some Income Tax devo, maybe it'll work...but the bottom line is, if he loses Scotland, he loses Britain's seat on the Security Council.

 TBF to the fella, he seems to have little interest in foreign affairs, after failing to get a mandate to bomb Syria....as can be seen by lack of interest in Ukraine.

 Maybe it's a good thing....a logical end to the process begun by Edward I.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 05:50:23
If you've got a zero hour contract and don't like it, find another job, if you can't then be grateful for what you've got.

Wow.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 05:55:49
Will be interesting to look back at this thread in 5 years time and see where we are as a nation and what this Tory government have done by then.
I can only see it going one way and that isn't the way I'd like it to. An ever growing selfish non society based on greed and division is what I think will continue to grow. I predict a riot!


I think you will refer to Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

Too many people look into the merits of Politics rather than basic economics and human behaviour.
Socialism has and will never work with greed.
Will say it again and sadly it is exactly this, you are on your own mate.

I only have to look at the behaviour of the CEO in the PLC I work for.
Utter selfish cunt. I have managed teams for many years now and simple values go a long way.
Pressure on people inside and outside of work are immense.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 08:19:25
Unfortunately the politics of personalities is what elections are most about about nowadays. The majority of people haven't got a clue what policies each party subscribe to, apart from generic sound bites and most don't seem bothered to find out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 08:27:12
Will say it again and sadly it is exactly this, you are on your own mate.


Total and utter bollocks. (Unless you've never benefitted from the emergency services, the NHS, education, transport network, rubbish collection, etc, etc). The problem is there are too many people solely focused on themselves, not on the society they live in. I'm not advocating a socialist state; people should be able to succeed or fail based on their abilities and attitude, but not at the expense of everybody else. That would fragment the country even more.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 08:45:56
Total and utter bollocks. (Unless you've never benefitted from the emergency services, the NHS, education, transport network, rubbish collection, etc, etc). The problem is there are too many people solely focused on themselves, not on the society they live in. I'm not advocating a socialist state; people should be able to succeed or fail based on their abilities and attitude, but not at the expense of everybody else. That would fragment the country even more.
So you think those people voted actually represent you.
Sorry I don't......then some in these high powered place fiddle expenses etc.
Yeah right pillars of society.
You are right people just focus on themselves, very sad but true.
However you can make a difference yourself and with your kids to try to bring them up the right way.
Tough World out there for sure and still believe you are very much on your own.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 09:01:49
Wow.
Indeed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 09:07:55
Indeed

The only thing that you can ask for is a chance. Then it turns back to you.
Sadly some people are never given that chance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 09:45:38
Will be interesting to look back at this thread in 5 years time and see where we are as a nation and what this Tory government have done by then.
I can only see it going one way and that isn't the way I'd like it to. An ever growing selfish non society based on greed and division is what I think will continue to grow. I predict a riot!


Don't get why this has to be so black and white. So (and this isn't a direct reply to you Artiba it's more a general observation on many comments I've read on line over the last few days) it seems if you voted Conservative you're selfish, uncaring etc, and it's only the defeated labour supporters that wanted social equality etc.

Well I think that's a load of bull, I want a better standard of living for everyone, but my view is to get to that utopia you need a sound economic future. As soon as you delve into the detail and logic behind many of labours policies thes no way I could be happy to see Miliband get the keys to no.10. It'd be extremely damaging to the recovery and that'd mean to keep his promises our debt would grow and grow.

So personally, yes I did vote Tory, but the major reason for that was lack of alternative, their simply wasn't another party available to go for. If you'd offered me another 5 yrs of con/lib coalition I'd have gone for it in a flash, as I said five years ago I like the concept of a well formed coalition.

Looking forward to a higher personal allowance which will benefit millions. Also happy to see the zero hour contract debate fade away, as many are happy using themincluding most of the staff up our local, and unfortunately extra pressure on employers to make staff permanent after a set period would not have led to the desired results, it'd probably result in a logic people losing their jobs.

I won't get into the non-Dom debate but that was something out of nothing to, a headline grabber if ever there was one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 09:57:16
Don't get why this has to be so black and white. So (and this isn't a direct reply to you Artiba it's more a general observation on many comments I've read on line over the last few days) it seems if you voted Conservative you're selfish, uncaring etc, and it's only the defeated labour supporters that wanted social equality etc.

Well I think that's a load of bull, I want a better standard of living for everyone, but my view is to get to that utopia you need a sound economic future. As soon as you delve into the detail and logic behind many of labours policies thes no way I could be happy to see Miliband get the keys to no.10. It'd be extremely damaging to the recovery and that'd mean to keep his promises our debt would grow and grow.

So personally, yes I did vote Tory, but the major reason for that was lack of alternative, their simply wasn't another party available to go for. If you'd offered me another 5 yrs of con/lib coalition I'd have gone for it in a flash, as I said five years ago I like the concept of a well formed coalition.

Looking forward to a higher personal allowance which will benefit millions. Also happy to see the zero hour contract debate fade away, as many are happy using themincluding most of the staff up our local, and unfortunately extra pressure on employers to make staff permanent after a set period would not have led to the desired results, it'd probably result in a logic people losing their jobs.

I won't get into the non-Dom debate but that was something out of nothing to, a headline grabber if ever there was one.

Millions would agree with most of what you have written.
I have heard so many people, including myself, that Milliband couldn't run a bath let alone a Country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 10:02:22
God knows that the labour party has its faults.  I cringe every time Milliband, Balls etc. jump on the absurdly lazy get out of jail free bandwagon of blaming everything on "the greedy bankers".

But the current Tories have no feel for how to unite a nation in difficult times except through fear.  How Cameron can claim to be a One Nation Tory is beyond me.  The removal of the 50p tax at a time when everyone was being asked to knuckle down and accept the realities of the economic crisis was what summed up the last government for me.

I thought that Balls showed a lot of class when he lost on Friday, especially given how visibly excited the young woman who won it for the Tories was.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 10:37:18
Millions would agree with most of what you have written.
I have heard so many people, including myself, that Milliband couldn't run a bath let alone a Country.


The editor of The New Statesman paper has written a very reasoned article in The Daily Mail as to the why's and wherefores of Labours downfall. Worth reading if you consider yourself to have 20/20 vision politically rather than a skewed and blinkered view either left or right leaning.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 10:45:59
Don't get why this has to be so black and white. So (and this isn't a direct reply to you Artiba it's more a general observation on many comments I've read on line over the last few days) it seems if you voted Conservative you're selfish, uncaring etc, and it's only the defeated labour supporters that wanted social equality etc.

Well I think that's a load of bull, I want a better standard of living for everyone, but my view is to get to that utopia you need a sound economic future. As soon as you delve into the detail and logic behind many of labours policies thes no way I could be happy to see Miliband get the keys to no.10. It'd be extremely damaging to the recovery and that'd mean to keep his promises our debt would grow and grow.

So personally, yes I did vote Tory, but the major reason for that was lack of alternative, their simply wasn't another party available to go for. If you'd offered me another 5 yrs of con/lib coalition I'd have gone for it in a flash, as I said five years ago I like the concept of a well formed coalition.

Looking forward to a higher personal allowance which will benefit millions. Also happy to see the zero hour contract debate fade away, as many are happy using themincluding most of the staff up our local, and unfortunately extra pressure on employers to make staff permanent after a set period would not have led to the desired results, it'd probably result in a logic people losing their jobs.

I won't get into the non-Dom debate but that was something out of nothing to, a headline grabber if ever there was one.
I do think people voted selfishly. They thought "I'm doing ok, I don't want Labour to take that from me" and bought the scaremongering. I am very comfortable myself with only a mortgage (which I'm able to pay more than double the amount a month) to worry about. No other debt and money in the bank. I could so easily have done the same as many Tory voters have. You won't get a better standard of living for all under a Tory government though so I will never vote for them. It is that black and white. People will suffer and that doesn't sit well with me.

I don't understand why people see Labour as unelectable. They had plans and will have drawn money but in a different way to the Tories. The deficit would have taken longer to get down but so what? Does it really matter?
Yes the coalition did inherit a deficit but that deficit would have been there anyway. It's daft to think there would have been a different picture for the nation's financial situation post the crash. Labour did a lot of good during their terms and that has been just brushed under the carpet and forgotten.

Zero hour contracts are awful for many people. These are people on low wages when they do get called into work with unreliable hours on low money when trying to run a household is hard for them. Many still have to draw benefits because of this. Many businesses using these contracts are doing very well and making huge profits. It's becoming like slave labour. A backwards step for the British workforce.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: OOH! SHAUN TAYLOR on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 10:47:21
Could you spare me a couple of grand arriba??  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 10:47:58
God knows that the labour party has its faults.  I cringe every time Milliband, Balls etc. jump on the absurdly lazy get out of jail free bandwagon of blaming everything on "the greedy bankers".

But the current Tories have no feel for how to unite a nation in difficult times except through fear.  How Cameron can claim to be a One Nation Tory is beyond me.  The removal of the 50p tax at a time when everyone was being asked to knuckle down and accept the realities of the economic crisis was what summed up the last government for me.

I thought that Balls showed a lot of class when he lost on Friday, especially given how visibly excited the young woman who won it for the Tories was.
God knows that the labour party has its faults.  I cringe every time Milliband, Balls etc. jump on the absurdly lazy get out of jail free bandwagon of blaming everything on "the greedy bankers".

But the current Tories have no feel for how to unite a nation in difficult times except through fear.  How Cameron can claim to be a One Nation Tory is beyond me.  The removal of the 50p tax at a time when everyone was being asked to knuckle down and accept the realities of the economic crisis was what summed up the last government for me.

I thought that Balls showed a lot of class when he lost on Friday, especially given how visibly excited the young woman who won it for the Tories was.

this is the post that most closely reflects my thoughts on the matter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 11:27:16
I do think people voted selfishly. They thought "I'm doing ok, I don't want Labour to take that from me" and bought the scaremongering. I am very comfortable myself with only a mortgage (which I'm able to pay more than double the amount a month) to worry about. No other debt and money in the bank. I could so easily have done the same as many Tory voters have. You won't get a better standard of living for all under a Tory government though so I will never vote for them. It is that black and white. People will suffer and that doesn't sit well with me.

I don't understand why people see Labour as unelectable. They had plans and will have drawn money but in a different way to the Tories. The deficit would have taken longer to get down but so what? Does it really matter?
Yes the coalition did inherit a deficit but that deficit would have been there anyway. It's daft to think there would have been a different picture for the nation's financial situation post the crash. Labour did a lot of good during their terms and that has been just brushed under the carpet and forgotten.

Zero hour contracts are awful for many people. These are people on low wages when they do get called into work with unreliable hours on low money when trying to run a household is hard for them. Many still have to draw benefits because of this. Many businesses using these contracts are doing very well and making huge profits. It's becoming like slave labour. A backwards step for the British workforce.

Great post arriba.

Yesterday, I said we now have 2 years of Tory squabbling over how to frame the EU referendum to look forward to, plus how the Union is going to be sorted.  The third key strand, will be can Osborne, make his proposed massive cuts, without social cohesion breaking down further.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 11:57:25
I do think people voted selfishly. They thought "I'm doing ok, I don't want Labour to take that from me" and bought the scaremongering.

I don't.  I think the Tory vote was higher than expected because Labour's proposition was feeble.  Miliband and Balls never articulated a coherent vision and Balls, in particular, had an image that was every bit as toxic as Osborne's.  When you add in the collapse of the Lib Dem vote (speaking as a Lib Dem voter myself) and the lacklustre campaign by UKIP - there was only one other place for those votes to go.  The Tories mopped up not because they were loved but because, unlike Labour, people felt they were competent.

I've heard a lot of scalded Labour supporters in the last few days blaming the rise of the Tory vote on greed and selfishness.  Not only is this misguided from an electoral point of view; it's also plain wrong.  Most of the people who voted that way will have had well-intentioned reasons for doing so and if Labour, which now has a serious brick-by-brick rebuilding job to do, is smart and serious about getting elected again, they could start by talking to a few of their ex-voters to find out why they switched.  If they're not smart, they'll continue insulting the electorate as they have been for the last few days like a jilted lover.  If they choose that route, they're going to find themselves in opposition for quite some time to come.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 12:15:52
I don't.  I think the Tory vote was higher than expected because Labour's proposition was feeble.

There was very little difference between the Tories and Labour in terms of policy, if we had a Labour government today, 2 of the 3 key issues facing the Tories would still be there, namely the Union, and austerity.  Some trimming around the edges, but nothing substantial.

There's no doubt Crosby's tactic of raising the spectre of an SNP/Lab coalition scared off many. I was talking to a lady yesterday, reliant on benefits as a carer for ageing and infirm parents....who was pleased she'd voted Tory as she didn't want Scots in the Parliament... :)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Swindon Town Fan on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 12:24:36
Long shot, but has anyone got three tickets together in the Don Rogers to swap for two plus the cash for the third obviously, thanks. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Swindon Town Fan on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 12:28:04
Sorry put in wrong section , please ignore


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 12:39:07
University tuition fees... first introduced by Labour...much like what's happening with the NHS - Tories wouldn't be where we are now without Labour opening the door for them....

House price inflation.... mainly due to nimby members of the population not wanting new houses built anywhere...

Social housing construction is a problem but no worse than it was 1997-2010....


Not only that but Labour hit millions of their 'working man' voters by taxing pensions (one of the first things Gordon Brown did as Chancellor in 1997), and then saw final salary pensions for the private sector virtually disappear over the next ten years when they became unaffordable for companies, yet everyone is supposed the subsidise the final salary pensions for the public sector.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 13:05:00
There's no doubt Crosby's tactic of raising the spectre of an SNP/Lab coalition scared off many.

It's an insult to voters to suggest it needed the Tories to point out the prospect of an Lab/SNP and the dangers of it.

The polls were clear that a Lab/SNP coalition was a very likely outcome and especially that Labour couldn't get a majority on their own. Miliband continually came across as weak and Sturgeon had the upper hand in the televised debates. The SNP (primarily Salmond) made it clear they would make the most of it and hold the threat of withdrawal of support over Labour. Sturgeon repeatedly stated she would do anything and everything she could to keep the Tories out of power.

The facts were clear to many and the Tories raising it was just stating the obvious and no more.

For me at least, not wanting the SNP in government doesn't mean I'm anti-Scottish and Cameron needs to ensure their voice is heard as it can't be ignored.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 13:47:52
 By all means feel insulted....

 All polls do is flag up stated voting intentions....how that is interpreted is conjecture.  It's fair enough scare tactics to flag up something imaginary, as it's fair enough for you to believe it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 14:10:18
Don't get why this has to be so black and white. So (and this isn't a direct reply to you Artiba it's more a general observation on many comments I've read on line over the last few days) it seems if you voted Conservative you're selfish, uncaring etc, and it's only the defeated labour supporters that wanted social equality etc.

Well I think that's a load of bull, I want a better standard of living for everyone, but my view is to get to that utopia you need a sound economic future. As soon as you delve into the detail and logic behind many of labours policies thes no way I could be happy to see Miliband get the keys to no.10. It'd be extremely damaging to the recovery and that'd mean to keep his promises our debt would grow and grow.

So personally, yes I did vote Tory, but the major reason for that was lack of alternative, their simply wasn't another party available to go for. If you'd offered me another 5 yrs of con/lib coalition I'd have gone for it in a flash, as I said five years ago I like the concept of a well formed coalition.

Looking forward to a higher personal allowance which will benefit millions. Also happy to see the zero hour contract debate fade away, as many are happy using themincluding most of the staff up our local, and unfortunately extra pressure on employers to make staff permanent after a set period would not have led to the desired results, it'd probably result in a logic people losing their jobs.

I won't get into the non-Dom debate but that was something out of nothing to, a headline grabber if ever there was one.

Agree with this


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 14:29:20
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CEjx05zWgAA3zEL.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 14:48:59
a very reasoned article in The Daily Mail .
the perfect example of oxymoron?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 16:44:11
I don't understand why people see Labour as unelectable. They had plans and will have drawn money but in a different way to the Tories. The deficit would have taken longer to get down but so what? Does it really matter?
Yes the coalition did inherit a deficit but that deficit would have been there anyway. It's daft to think there would have been a different picture for the nation's financial situation post the crash. Labour did a lot of good during their terms and that has been just brushed under the carpet and forgotten.

Zero hour contracts are awful for many people. These are people on low wages when they do get called into work with unreliable hours on low money when trying to run a household is hard for them. Many still have to draw benefits because of this. Many businesses using these contracts are doing very well and making huge profits. It's becoming like slave labour. A backwards step for the British workforce.

When the IFS give warnings about labours spending (which just reconfirm many people's views) you take notice. Torys have without doubt a better economical plan, and historically are more trustworthy than labour.

I think within the next four years Boris will be PM and that should be enough to see the Tories home next time around too, sommwe should have anger 10 yrs of decent economic policy, just what the nation needs.

And whilst there may be some (of the few hundred thousand) that are on zero hour contracts who don't like them, there are many of them who do like them, unfortunately there are more important issues, that effect more of the population, which is why it was a strange policy for labour to hang their hat on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 17:31:41
When the IFS give warnings about labours spending (which just reconfirm Mandy's personal views) you take notice. Torys have without doubt a better economical plan, and historically are more trustworthy than labour.

*snigger*  the Tories have won an outright majority for the first time in 23 years.  Part of this exile to the political wasteland was caused by their disastrous economic mismanagement, ending in Black Wednesday, a massive hit to the tax payer, and hundreds of thousands plunged into debt, house repossesion and negative equity.  My then brother in law was one of them....lost his home, business, and got declared bankrupt.  

On top of this, came the usual Tory achilles heel of corruption, it tends to come in many forms....mostly snout in some sort of trough, our man Buckland showing some promise here, so will be worth keeping an eye on.  

My fave from that last Tory administration, was a fella called Stephen Milligan, bit of a rising star, found dead hanging upside down in stockings and suspenders, tied up in electric flex, apparently autoasphixiated.

Tories do tend to lose a few during their 5 year term, so probably will want to cosy up a bit with the DUPfor a bit of added security.

That last Tory admin, was brought down by the divide on Europe....seing how this will pan out of over the next 2-3 years is completely unpredictable, and an outcome where the Tories completely implode again is just as likely as your simple scenario.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 19:19:01
The DUP are basically Conservatives (NI Branch), so they effectively have 339 seats.  That's a majority of 28.  Salmond's language since the result has been bellicose and aggressive, and I think he's some way off with his prediction/wet dream that it's all going belly up imminently.  The EU vote is a potential pitfall for Cameron, but I'd be surprised if he doesn't manage to find a way to worm out of it.  He won't want to be John Major Mk II.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 19:27:33
The DUP are basically Conservatives (NI Branch), so they effectively have 339 seats.  That's a majority of 28.  Salmond's language since the result has been bellicose and aggressive, and I think he's some way off with his prediction/wet dream that it's all going belly up imminently.  The EU vote is a potential pitfall for Cameron, but I'd be surprised if he doesn't manage to find a way to worm out of it.  He won't want to be John Major Mk II.

Here's a snippet about the DUP.

Quote
They have already avoided introducing the bedroom tax and have committed to supporting the abolition of the charge for the rest of the UK. They will also support more aggressive pursuit of tax evaders. They will refuse to support increasing VAT. All of this suggests that the DUP really is every bit as willing to strike a deal with Labour as with the Tories

Economic incompetence, or sleaze, or sometimes both, has done for every Tory PM in my life time.   Macmillan, the sleaze of the Profumo and Vassal Affairs, Douglas Home, part of the same process. 

Heath, economic incompetence.....3 day week. 

Thatcher, economic incompetence, the Poll tax riots....not much fun when you are, as I was, one of many thousands faced with jail, for refusal to pay an iniquitous tax.

Major, economic incompetence and sleaze...

Cameron will do well to avoid completing the set...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 19:39:45
My fave from that last Tory administration, was a fella called Stephen Milligan, bit of a rising star, found dead hanging upside down in stockings and suspenders, tied up in electric flex, apparently autoasphixiated.

Not sure I get you. Your 'fave' from an administration was someone dying. Very classy Reg, irrespective of circumstance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 19:51:26
Not sure I get you. Your 'fave' from an administration was someone dying. Very classy Reg, irrespective of circumstance.

You can't see the humour in a middle aged man wearing suspenders, asphyxiating himself with electric cable with orange peel in his mouth whilst banging one out? Bet it's a bundle of laughs round your gaff.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 20:03:24
Yeah me and the kids are always having a laugh about people dying.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 20:07:10
Not sure I get you. Your 'fave' from an administration was someone dying. Very classy Reg, irrespective of circumstance.

We all die sooner or later....the thing about Milligan was that at the time the Tories were trying to promote "back to basics" extolling a return to traditional family values, like thrift and hard work, military service and doffing of caps to our natural betters from the  ruling classes.

Then some Oxford educated, Old Etonian toff, ends up dead with an orange in his gob, apparently during a bout of onanism.

Major, at the time kept quiet about his boning of Edwina Currie....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 20:21:23
Anti government protest in London after 1 day then. Gonna get messy


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Hammer on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 20:46:31
Anti government protest in London after 1 day then. Gonna get messy

Hopefully there will be some strategically placed snipers then. Democracy.....pffft.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 21:11:14
Hopefully there will be some strategically placed snipers then. Democracy.....pffft.
It's becoming rather clear that to many  democracy only exists where the right people are elected.

Similar to the extensive fuss about FPTP and the lack of Green seats which seems to overlook the fact that UKIP would have won similar... I don't recall PR including a clause to allow choice between good and bad!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 23:58:39
Yeah me and the kids are always having a laugh about people dying.

My kids love the "dumb ways to die" song, you should check it out, asphyxiation and orange peel don't feature though iirc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 07:17:06
I don't understand why people see Labour as unelectable.

That's because you believe that everyone ought to vote Labour for the reasons that you do.  The problem is that they don't and won't.

In my lifetime:
Wilson and Blair have won general elections.
Callaghan, Foot, Kinnoch, Brown and Milliband have lost general elections.

I won't insult your intelligence by asking you if you can see the difference between the two groups because it's obvious. The only possible exception is Callaghan who was destroyed by the winter of discontent. 

The majority of people in this country want to vote Labour.  When they feel they can't trust the Labour leadership they reluctantly switch to the Tories who are adept at exploiting that fear because they know it is realistically the only way they can gain power.

People want social democracy in this country but if all they are offered is socialism or conservatism then they will choose conservatism.

Next week the media will be full of Labour politicians wringing their hands and saying that the reason that they lost the election was that they failed to appeal to the aspirational middle classes and failed to convince people that they could be trusted. No shit Sherlock. 

As a result of the self-indulgent choice of electing Milliband and his fellow travellers to 'lead' the Labour party we are now faced with 5 years of Tory rule with the only alternative (gleefully anticipated by the moronic left) that riots and Tory EU divisions will bugger up our country sufficiently to force an early election. 

Yet again the Labour party have betrayed the people of Britain and left us at the mercy of a Tory party with renewed confidence that they can pursue their self-interest.  Well done guys, good job.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 07:32:48
My kids love the "dumb ways to die" song, you should check it out, asphyxiation and orange peel don't feature though iirc.

I'll have a look!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 07:40:55
I'd with a lot of that.  But the 'self-indulgent choice of electing Miliband' was due to the self-indulgent choice of the unions more than any other group.  And I don't see anyone in the Labour Party taking the unions to task over this.  It needs to happen to ensure the mistake is not made again.

It's a horrible position to be in.  There is a lot of comment, like yours above, that Labour needs to move towards social democracy; and there is other comment (particularly in Scotland) that it needs to move much further over to the left.  It really is back to the drawing board.

And one more thing...charisma does matter.  I have heard a lot of people in recent months say that Miliband's lack of personal appeal shouldn't matter because his policies should do the talking; a kind of distancing from the Blair/Mandelson period when spin and image were more important.  But to pretend that personal presence/charisma is in no way important massively over-simplifies the issue.  Could you honestly see Miliband going toe-to-toe with Obama or Merkel in negotiations?  Of course not.  They would have him for dinner.  Miliband was seen as weak.  Probably the biggest single reason he was unelectable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 07:47:44
And one more thing...charisma does matter.

Its worse than that. Boris Johnson has built a entire political career off of the back of mad hair.

That's not to say behind the bumbling buffoon there isn't an intelligent man, more that I doubt this influenced him becoming mayor of London anywhere near as much as his hair did.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 07:58:20
BJ has played a blinder during his career. He'll win the next general election at a canter, if the Tory's select him as next leader, though he may end up losing his one Scottish MP, as he's very anti Scottish.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 08:20:13
It is weird the way that some people (Reagan, Clinton, Boris) are viewed with affection and are forgiven for every mistake and lie.  "Oh that's just Boris being Boris" is said with a smile almost like a doting grandparent.

Others get lacerated for just one misjudgement or poor choice of words.

If we could bottle and sell it we could clear the national debt in a weekend.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 08:21:09
The power of being a likeable individual, like you're actually deep down not that nice a person.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 09:40:00
Now that the hype, claim, counter claim, spin, sounds bites and propaganda has more or less calmed down there is one fundamental fact that EVERYONE has to accept and abide by. The people have spoken. You'll get your chance in five years to decide again.

Of course I expect the bitter socialists on here will try to shout down my reasoned and true statement in some way, mainly by saying the government won't last that long, however, as it is that is wishful thinking and guess work. As it stands it's five years, deal with it.

You will of course have an opportunity in two years to get excited again with the referendum on our EU position. Save yourselves for that. For those of you undecided about our membership under the current "rules" it is worth noting that my son who us currently on Erasmus in Germany till July said that the German media and by default government (though they'd not openly admit it) were rooting for a Labour win. I wonder why. Here's a clue ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££.

Junker seems to have changed his stance since Friday morning too, two faced beaurocratic unelected communist shyte.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 10:50:35
Now that the hype, claim, counter claim, spin, sounds bites and propaganda has more or less calmed down there is one fundamental fact that EVERYONE has to accept and abide by. The people have spoken. You'll get your chance in five years to decide again.

Of course I expect the bitter socialists on here will try to shout down my reasoned and true statement in some way, mainly by saying the government won't last that long, however, as it is that is wishful thinking and guess work. As it stands it's five years, deal with it.

You will of course have an opportunity in two years to get excited again with the referendum on our EU position. Save yourselves for that. For those of you undecided about our membership under the current "rules" it is worth noting that my son who us currently on Erasmus in Germany till July said that the German media and by default government (though they'd not openly admit it) were rooting for a Labour win. I wonder why. Here's a clue ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££.

Junker seems to have changed his stance since Friday morning too, two faced beaurocratic unelected communist shyte.

bureaucratic, it's bureaucratic

Harold Wilson famously said a week is a long time in politics, so 5 years is even longer. The people have spoken, but in a sense no-one listens, as the present voting system enables.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 10:59:31
The people have spoken. You'll get your chance in five years to decide again.

Now that the hype, claim, counter claim, spin, sounds bites and propaganda has more or less calmed down there is one fundamental fact that EVERYONE has to accept and abide by. The people have spoken. You'll get your chance in five years to decide again.

Of course I expect the bitter socialists on here will try to shout down my reasoned and true statement in some way, mainly by saying the government won't last that long, however, as it is that is wishful thinking and guess work. As it stands it's five years, deal with it.

You will of course have an opportunity in two years to get excited again with the referendum on our EU position. Save yourselves for that. For those of you undecided about our membership under the current "rules" it is worth noting that my son who us currently on Erasmus in Germany till July said that the German media and by default government (though they'd not openly admit it) were rooting for a Labour win. I wonder why. Here's a clue ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££.

Junker seems to have changed his stance since Friday morning too, two faced beaurocratic unelected communist shyte.

63.1% of the people did not vote Conservative.  The people have indeed spoken, but our electoral system ensures they are ignored.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 11:32:00
63.1% of the people did not vote Conservative.  The people have indeed spoken, but our electoral system ensures they are ignored.

I believe a similar figure kept labour in clover. The system is the system FPTP. You won't hear the sweaty socks moaning will you? You have five years to brood. Of course when your taxes start to fall I'm sure all you conscious socialists will hand it back to the treasury ...........


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 11:37:31
bureaucratic, it's bureaucratic

Harold Wilson famously said a week is a long time in politics, so 5 years is even longer. The people have spoken, but in a sense no-one listens, as the present voting system enables.
yeah yeah  :fishing:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 11:40:18
I believe a similar figure kept labour in clover. The system is the system FPTP. You won't hear the sweaty socks moaning will you? You have five years to brood. Of course when your taxes start to fall I'm sure all you conscious socialists will hand it back to the treasury ...........

It was wrong when it put Labour in power, too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 11:41:21
Under pure PR we'd have a Tory/UKIP coalition passing 50% of the vote so be careful what you wish for. My thoughts on the electoral system are already in this thread, but the people did not vote for a socialist utopia only to be ignored, I'm afraid.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 11:44:43
Under pure PR we'd have a Tory/UKIP coalition passing 50% of the vote so be careful what you wish for. My thoughts on the electoral system are already in this thread, but the people did not vote for a socialist utopia only to be ignored, I'm afraid.

On Thursday's votes yes. However if PR had been used perhaps the general public wouldn't have voted in the same way. I think it's too simplistic to say if PR was used we'd have 'this or that'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 11:47:03
On Thursday's votes yes. However if PR had been used perhaps the general public wouldn't have voted in the same way. I think it's too simplistic to say if PR was used we'd have 'this or that'.

Exactly that, I know a few who altered their voting to one of the big 2 rather than a smaller party ( greens/ukip ) as seen as a wasted vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 11:49:24
Pro Labour supporters wouldn't be complaining about the voting system if they had got in..  It's only when the other people get in that the voting system is corrupt, wouldn't be getting a mention otherwise..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 11:52:19
Pro Labour supporters wouldn't be complaining about the voting system if they had got in..  It's only when the other people get in that the voting system is corrupt, wouldn't be getting a mention otherwise..

Have heard more complaints from the smaller party supporters than labour
SNPs 7% for 56 seats is a pisstake compared to the amount the Greens/Ukip polled for their single seat each


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 11:54:07
I believe a similar figure kept labour in clover. The system is the system FPTP. You won't hear the sweaty socks moaning will you? You have five years to brood. Of course when your taxes start to fall I'm sure all you conscious socialists will hand it back to the treasury ...........

Actually I'm doing fine financially, and I don't particularly want a tax cut, I'd rather live in a society where the poor and the vulnerable are looked after, not blamed for the financial situation the world finds itself in. I'd rather have a health system that works, and a welfare state, and I'll sleep easier in my bed knowing there aren't people sleeping on the streets.

I'm happy to pay tax and live in a civilised society, called me old fashioned, but rich people living in gated communities is not the sort of country I want my children growing up in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 11:56:49
Under pure PR we'd have a Tory/UKIP coalition passing 50% of the vote so be careful what you wish for. My thoughts on the electoral system are already in this thread, but the people did not vote for a socialist utopia only to be ignored, I'm afraid.

I don't think we would.  The Tory vote included a good deal of tactical votes designed to keep Miliband out of Number 10.  Tactical voting would have been negligible under PR.  The Tory/UKIP combined total may have just crept over 50%, but only just.  And besides...if that's the will of the electorate, it's the result that should be reflected in Parliament.

The present system is a farce.  I almost struggle to call it democratic.  It collects votes, distorts them, and then spits out a result that no one voted for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 11:57:53
Some excellent debate on these pages and I've enjoyed catching up on it.

We have a first past the post system and I am happy to live by that. I do think things would have been different under a proportional representation system as others have said. The greens in particular I think would do very well.

Boris Johnson is an absolute cunt by the way. The scruffy haired likeable buffoon people see is in reality a nasty piece of work.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:12:28
I don't think we would.  The Tory vote included a good deal of tactical votes designed to keep Miliband out of Number 10.  Tactical voting would have been negligible under PR.  The Tory/UKIP combined total may have just crept over 50%, but only just.  And besides...if that's the will of the electorate, it's the result that should be reflected in Parliament.

The present system is a farce.  I almost struggle to call it democratic.  It collects votes, distorts them, and then spits out a result that no one voted for.

Exactly.

I don't choose the government, I have but one vote.  However, I believe the make up of parliament should be roughly reflective of the votes cast.  This is a point of principle, one I have held for well over 20 years, regardless of party in power.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:14:54
Under pure PR we'd have a Tory/UKIP coalition passing 50% of the vote so be careful what you wish for. My thoughts on the electoral system are already in this thread, but the people did not vote for a socialist utopia only to be ignored, I'm afraid.

We don't like UKIP so let's not change the system.....that's sounds very democratic and free.

I'm not Labour but hate the Tories so let's bring in a system to stop them getting in power?

It's first past the post....it was very clear at the start, so that's what it is until it changes.

Like Preston being 20 points clear than Chesterfield....it's the rules and that's that.

The SNP getting major power and Labour losing so many seats may see a change...I'm hoping.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:22:06
Some excellent debate on these pages and I've enjoyed catching up on it.

Yeah have to say it's been a good thread on the whole. Good to see you can still have a good debate on the TEF.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:23:27
Under pure PR we'd have a Tory/UKIP coalition passing 50% of the vote so be careful what you wish for. My thoughts on the electoral system are already in this thread, but the people did not vote for a socialist utopia only to be ignored, I'm afraid.

Although a Labour man, I voted for the AV thing at the kick Clegg referendum, if the people vote for a Tory/UKIP coalition, then so be it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 13:18:57
We don't like UKIP so let's not change the system.....that's sounds very democratic and free.

I'm not Labour but hate the Tories so let's bring in a system to stop them getting in power?

It's first past the post....it was very clear at the start, so that's what it is until it changes.

Like Preston being 20 points clear than Chesterfield....it's the rules and that's that.

The SNP getting major power and Labour losing so many seats may see a change...I'm hoping.

Apologies if it wasn't clear but you seem to have read my post in the opposite way to how it was intended: I dislike everything UKIP stand for but to get 1 in 8 votes and one seat undermines our democracy. That system is wrong. Yes, we all knew it beforehand and I'm not saying the results of the election are invalid, but it's a system that needs to be reformed for an era of multi-party politics.

The only point I was trying to make in the post you've quoted is that there isn't some left wing majority being ignored because of the system that some of my friends seem to think there is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 13:37:30


I am now educated ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 15:31:48
I dislike everything UKIP stand for but to get 1 in 8 votes and one seat undermines our democracy. That system is wrong. Yes, we all knew it beforehand and I'm not saying the results of the election are invalid, but it's a system that needs to be reformed for an era of multi-party politics.

The problem with moving from FPTP to PR is losing the connection between the MP and the constituency. Even in the best case of a mixed system, you'd end up with far bigger constituencies and a group of MP's with no real regional affiliation. Sure the link between MP and constituency is questionable at times, but I reckon we should be moving more towards that than voting simply for a party. Plus the argument that FPTP delivers more stable governments has held up again.

Whilst the smaller parties such as the Greens and UKIP might not end up with many MP's it does't mean their voters aren't heard or their views accounted for. As they receive more votes the larger parties will change their policies - such as more renewable energy and recycling, or holding a referendum on EU membership.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 16:14:17
If you want a working model of a PR clusterfuck look no further than Italy. They change their government more often than some ppl change their underwear. Without a strong lead, left, right or centre you'll end up horse trading to the eight degree and achieve nothing but chaos and uncertainty.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 16:54:51
Some of these comments are pretty funny and some are actually quite sensible.

FPTP. It's the system we have and it's the system that every voter has to take into consideration prior to placing their cross. The Conservatives and Labour, certainly until Thursday had absolutely no reason to change it. Is it fair? No. Will it change in the next Parliament? Almost certainly not.

I could go on and on about Labour fuck up's, since '97: Lisbon treaty, Open borders, Taxation in all areas, Devolution, Illegal wars, PFI, GP contracts, Ridiculous over expansion of the welfare state, Tax credits, Economic policy built on debt, Housing policy, Lack of regulation over the Banking industry, Profligacy, Lack of contingency planning, NHS targets, Police targets to name but a few. That would just be fighting yesterday's battle, not that they should be forgotten of course.

The fact is, any sensible person could see that the Labour party couldn't accept, or even understand, not that they caused the global financial crisis, but that they left the the UK in a precarious state when it arrived. The fact that they wouldn't admit to that is, as far as I'm concerned, the deciding factor for most voters and the reason why the Conservatives won by so many seats.

Arriba and Reg can bore us to death with their tired old prejudices about the Tories but they need to remember that MOST people work for a living, pay their own way and have no problem contributing to society financially, and more often than not in other ways. They also need to remember that without money earners, it's back to subsistence farming for everyone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 17:05:10
Some of these comments are pretty funny and some are actually quite sensible.

FPTP. It's the system we have and it's the system that every voter has to take into consideration prior to placing their cross. The Conservatives and Labour, certainly until Thursday had absolutely no reason to change it. Is it fair? No. Will it change in the next Parliament? Almost certainly not.

I could go on and on about Labour fuck up's, since '97: Lisbon treaty, Open borders, Taxation in all areas, Devolution, Illegal wars, PFI, GP contracts, Ridiculous over expansion of the welfare state, Tax credits, Economic policy built on debt, Housing policy, Lack of regulation over the Banking industry, Profligacy, Lack of contingency planning, NHS targets, Police targets to name but a few. That would just be fighting yesterday's battle, not that they should be forgotten of course.

The fact is, any sensible person could see that the Labour party couldn't accept, or even understand, not that they caused the global financial crisis, but that they left the the UK in a precarious state when it arrived. The fact that they wouldn't admit to that is, as far as I'm concerned, the deciding factor for most voters and the reason why the Conservatives won by so many seats.

Arriba and Reg can bore us to death with their tired old prejudices about the Tories but they need to remember that MOST people work for a living, pay their own way and have no problem contributing to society financially, and more often than not in other ways. They also need to remember that without money earners, it's back to subsistence farming for everyone.

Exactly. Though you'll have to accept a plate of acerbic and barbed comments with a pinch of denial and a dash of self righteousness and served on a huge pile of moral high ground. Washed down with bottled beer and champagne socialism.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 17:05:25
Some of these comments are pretty funny and some are actually quite sensible.

FPTP. It's the system we have and it's the system that every voter has to take into consideration prior to placing their cross. The Conservatives and Labour, certainly until Thursday had absolutely no reason to change it. Is it fair? No. Will it change in the next Parliament? Almost certainly not.

I could go on and on about Labour fuck up's, since '97: Lisbon treaty, Open borders, Taxation in all areas, Devolution, Illegal wars, PFI, GP contracts, Ridiculous over expansion of the welfare state, Tax credits, Economic policy built on debt, Housing policy, Lack of regulation over the Banking industry, Profligacy, Lack of contingency planning, NHS targets, Police targets to name but a few. That would just be fighting yesterday's battle, not that they should be forgotten of course.

The fact is, any sensible person could see that the Labour party couldn't accept, or even understand, not that they caused the global financial crisis, but that they left the the UK in a precarious state when it arrived. The fact that they wouldn't admit to that is, as far as I'm concerned, the deciding factor for most voters and the reason why the Conservatives won by so many seats.

Arriba and Reg can bore us to death with their tired old prejudices about the Tories but they need to remember that MOST people work for a living, pay their own way and have no problem contributing to society financially, and more often than not in other ways. They also need to remember that without money earners, it's back to subsistence farming for everyone.

How did the BNP go this time round?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 17:14:36
How did the BNP go this time round?
Nearly as well as Labour...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 17:16:52
How did the BNP go this time round?

Give it a rest comrade Smeeton. Your lot fucked it up and lost. Save your bitter vitriol and bile for five years time.


Title: Re:
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 17:21:35
soapy tit wank...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 17:46:03


Arriba and Reg can bore us to death with their tired old prejudices about the Tories but they need to remember that MOST people work for a living, pay their own way and have no problem contributing to society financially, and more often than not in other ways. They also need to remember that without money earners, it's back to subsistence farming for everyone.

Why would I have a problem with any of  that? I'm fully aware thanks. Makes no difference to my opinions.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 18:12:08
Why would I have a problem with any of  that? I'm fully aware thanks. Makes no difference to my opinions.
In which case you should, perhaps, consider the world's reality as a opposed to your silly 'ideals'?

Anyone would think that a grown man with a family and a mortgage to pay for may have a slight comprehension that someone has to pay for stuff...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 18:19:08
 why are many people not happy to "contribute" why do they search out loopholes so they can avoid "contributing to society"? Why do many big "money earners" avoid taxation? Why do many of these big "money earners" exploit people ie their staff?
That is the reality.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 18:32:01
Good to hear some of the Labour leader candidates coming out today and stating that it was their negative campaign that lost them the election.  Spent too much time commenting on the last 5 years of coalition failings rather than setting out their plans and talking about what they are going to do if elected. 

A bit late now mind you, even so it's good to hear them coming out and admitting it, something that they have not been good at doing since their last stint.  They still wouldn't have won with that muppet in charge but it is a positive sign that the potential new leaders might attempt to learn from their mistakes and make a fight of it in 5 years time.  I look forward to having a real choice then.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 18:32:15
The problem with moving from FPTP to PR is losing the connection between the MP and the constituency. Even in the best case of a mixed system, you'd end up with far bigger constituencies and a group of MP's with no real regional affiliation. Sure the link between MP and constituency is questionable at times, but I reckon we should be moving more towards that than voting simply for a party. Plus the argument that FPTP delivers more stable governments has held up again.

Whilst the smaller parties such as the Greens and UKIP might not end up with many MP's it does't mean their voters aren't heard or their views accounted for. As they receive more votes the larger parties will change their policies - such as more renewable energy and recycling, or holding a referendum on EU membership.

You would but, in all seriousness, I don't see that as much of a problem.  How many people, honestly, call on their own MP to bat for them?  Not many.  Is Robert Buckland out there now fighting for the interests of people in the southern half of Swindon, for example?  No.  He'll be doing what he's told by Conservative Party whips.

So I don't think the constituency MP link is that important.  But if it absolutely had to be retained, you could give MP's a weighted vote in the lobbies, in proportion to the votes/MP ratio.  That way for each vote of a Tory MP:

  • each Labour MP would get 1.18 votes;
  • each SNP MP would have 0.76 votes;
  • each Lib Dem MP would have 8.82 votes;
  • the Green MP would have 33.80 votes; and
  • the UKIP MP would have 113.34 votes.

Sound preposterous?  Yes, it does.  But it would be more logical and fairer than the current system.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 18:32:35
In which case you should, perhaps, consider the world's reality as a opposed to your silly 'ideals'?

Anyone would think that a grown man with a family and a mortgage to pay for may have a slight comprehension that someone has to pay for stuff...

Wow. Your cynical view of the world is thoroughly depressing (to me at least. You seem to like it).  I'd prefer to live in a society based on Arriba's "silly ideals" anyday.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:00:25
why are many people not happy to "contribute" why do they search out loopholes so they can avoid "contributing to society"? Why do many big "money earners" avoid taxation? Why do many of these big "money earners" exploit people ie their staff?
That is the reality.

Look, I support businesses that make a profit by doing business in the UK paying corporation tax in on profit made in this country. Who wouldn't and why wouldn't they?. Your problem there of course, lies with the EU. You can take all your profit from the biggest economy but divert it through licensing agreements and other tools through to the lowest corporation tax constituencies, perfectly legally and within EU rules. As the CEO, with a legal obligation to investors, whether they be Corporate or individual, what would you?

You have clearly not got a fucking clue about business or economics.

As for your argument about 'tax avoidance' let me say this: I pay the same percentage amount as everyone else, you can fuck off if you think you have the right to take any more off me. We're all equal, after all...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:05:01
You would but, in all seriousness, I don't see that as much of a problem.  How many people, honestly, call on their own MP to bat for them?  Not many.  Is Robert Buckland out there now fighting for the interests of people in the southern half of Swindon, for example?  No.  He'll be doing what he's told by Conservative Party whips.

So I don't think the constituency MP link is that important.  But if it absolutely had to be retained, you could give MP's a weighted vote in the lobbies, in proportion to the votes/MP ratio.  That way for each vote of a Tory MP:

  • each Labour MP would get 1.18 votes;
  • each SNP MP would have 0.76 votes;
  • each Lib Dem MP would have 8.82 votes;
  • the Green MP would have 33.80 votes; and
  • the UKIP MP would have 113.34 votes.

Sound preposterous?  Yes, it does.  But it would be more logical and fairer than the current system.

Talking of fractions of votes, the Lib Dem constitution states that a new leader must secure at least a 10% vote of the Parliamentary MP's......in their case now 0.8% of an MP  :)


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:06:08
We're all equal, after all...

But some are more equal than others ...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:11:59
I do regret the Lib Dem wipe out.  They have been punished far more (in my view, anyway) than was warranted for going in to government.  Did the Lib Dem voters of 2010 honestly want them to remain a party of protest for all time?  Really?  For the first time in years, they have actually enacted their some of their policies - the increasing of the income tax threshold being a good example.  And in exchange, yes, they have had to give some ground on others.  The tuition fees-related punishment being meted out is, for me, way overdone.

I've never been closer to actually joining a political party than I am right now.  Liberalism needs a champion more than ever.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:13:55
I don't expect many to share that view, by the way.  Just the way I feel.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:17:13
I do regret the Lib Dem wipe out.  They have been punished far more (in my view, anyway) than was warranted for going in to government.  Did the Lib Dem voters of 2010 honestly want them to remain a party of protest for all time?  Really?  For the first time in years, they have actually enacted their some of their policies - the increasing of the income tax threshold being a good example.  And in exchange, yes, they have had to give some ground on others.  The tuition fees-related punishment being meted out is, for me, way overdone.

I've never been closer to actually joining a political party than I am right now.  Liberalism needs a champion more than ever.

Do it.  It's fun to see democracy operating at its grassroots. 



Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:25:38
I do regret the Lib Dem wipe out.  They have been punished far more (in my view, anyway) than was warranted for going in to government.  Did the Lib Dem voters of 2010 honestly want them to remain a party of protest for all time?  Really?  For the first time in years, they have actually enacted their some of their policies - the increasing of the income tax threshold being a good example.  And in exchange, yes, they have had to give some ground on others.  The tuition fees-related punishment being meted out is, for me, way overdone.

I've never been closer to actually joining a political party than I am right now.  Liberalism needs a champion more than ever.
Like most people who earn their own money, the tuition fee fuck up they made actually means fuck all. Most importantly for me was smarmy, patronising way Clegg spoke, combined with the fact that their economic policy was fucking shit.

That and the fact that they were, almost to a man, complete fucking wazzock's. The women were even worse. Having said that, Danny Alexander was almost convincing. Apart from the shite he spoke of course...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:25:39
Thank you, Reg.  That's the nudge I needed.  I just have.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:25:49
I don't expect many to share that view, by the way.  Just the way I feel.

I'm in a similar position. I didn't vote for my local lib dem candidate as he was running a very negative campaign which annoyed me no end. I also didn't particularly like Clegg, although not purely on the grounds of the tuition fee fiasco as many did. But at the end of it all, they're probably closest aligned to my personal views on most issues, and, after a few years of a conservative majority, people may have more sympathy for the job they did in government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:29:03
Like most people who earn their own money, the tuition fee fuck up they made actually means fuck all. Most importantly for me was smarmy, patronising way Clegg spoke, combined with the fact that their economic policy was fucking shit.

That and the fact that they were, almost to a man, complete fucking wazzock's. The women were even worse. Having said that, Danny Alexander was almost convincing. Apart from the shite he spoke of course...

Socially, I'm quite liberal.  But what made feel able to vote for them again this time was that their fiscal policies were actually quite sensible.  They would have been more fiscally prudent than Labour or the SNP, which - for the next 5 years or so, anyway - I personally believe is going to be necessary.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:34:07
Look, I support businesses that make a profit by doing business in the UK paying corporation tax in on profit made in this country. Who wouldn't and why wouldn't they?. Your problem there of course, lies with the EU. You can take all your profit from the biggest economy but divert it through licensing agreements and other tools through to the lowest corporation tax constituencies, perfectly legally and within EU rules. As the CEO, with a legal obligation to investors, whether they be Corporate or individual, what would you?

You have clearly not got a fucking clue about business or economics.

As for your argument about 'tax avoidance' let me say this: I pay the same percentage amount as everyone else, you can fuck off if you think you have the right to take any more off me. We're all equal, after all...


But you said people are happy to pay for it when in reality there is plenty of evidence that they are not. They are avoiding paying regardless of the reasons how. That contradicts your original comment directed at Reg and myself.
Why anyone who voted Labour would have had a problem with people paying their way is beyond me. I think that is the way it should be.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:58:42


But you said people are happy to pay for it when in reality there is plenty of evidence that they are not. They are avoiding paying regardless of the reasons how. That contradicts your original comment directed at Reg and myself.
Why anyone who voted Labour would have had a problem with people paying their way is beyond me. I think that is the way it should be.

I said most people are prepared to contribute. Most people don't have a problem chipping in for those that can't. They get pissed of off chipping in for those that won't.

If I could avoid paying for someone who can't be arsed I would, anyone who pays even the smallest percentage of tax would.

People like you however, seem to equate, rather stupidly in my opinion, a reduction in free money to be an attack on 'the most vulnerable in our society' when it's actually nothing of the sort.

How did your reduction in taxpayers money because you have a house bigger than you need go down? It went down like a sack of shit because the people that pay for it realised that it wasn't a fucking 'tax', it was a reduction in free money paid for people who pay taxes.

Give it up. Your beliefs bear no relation to reality and if you continue down this road, you will be consigned to sharing seats with the minor parties for decades


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 20:03:52
Give it up. Your beliefs bear no relation to reality and if you continue down this road, you will be consigned to sharing seats with the minor parties for decades

Im not sure Arriba is actually in charge of setting Labour Party policy is he? Shame though, he'd get my vote


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 20:12:43
I said most people are prepared to contribute. Most people don't have a problem chipping in for those that can't. They get pissed of off chipping in for those that won't.

If I could avoid paying for someone who can't be arsed I would, anyone who pays even the smallest percentage of tax would.

People like you however, seem to equate, rather stupidly in my opinion, a reduction in free money to be an attack on 'the most vulnerable in our society' when it's actually nothing of the sort.

How did your reduction in taxpayers money because you have a house bigger than you need go down? It went down like a sack of shit because the people that pay for it realised that it wasn't a fucking 'tax', it was a reduction in free money paid for people who pay taxes.

Give it up. Your beliefs bear no relation to reality and if you continue down this road, you will be consigned to sharing seats with the minor parties for decades
In your haste to insult me you attribute opinions and views that I don't have. You assume too much.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 20:28:10
I do regret the Lib Dem wipe out.  They have been punished far more (in my view, anyway) than was warranted for going in to government.  Did the Lib Dem voters of 2010 honestly want them to remain a party of protest for all time?  Really?  For the first time in years, they have actually enacted their some of their policies - the increasing of the income tax threshold being a good example.  And in exchange, yes, they have had to give some ground on others.  The tuition fees-related punishment being meted out is, for me, way overdone.

I've never been closer to actually joining a political party than I am right now.  Liberalism needs a champion more than ever.

I feel the same. I hate myself for switching my vote from them to the Tories, nothing to do with them - just the Lab/SNP risk. I'm not convinced they did anything wrong in most people's eyes, they just got caught in the crossfire.

I've been thinking of joining for a while and decided today is the day. Except their website won't accept my bank details.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 21:04:15
I feel the same. I hate myself for switching my vote from them to the Tories, nothing to do with them - just the Lab/SNP risk. I'm not convinced they did anything wrong in most people's eyes, they just got caught in the crossfire.

I've been thinking of joining for a while and decided today is the day. Except their website won't accept my bank details.
Bloody hell we are a little Lib Dem enclave as I have been thinking same... not sure about the minimum or recommended membership fee?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 21:12:52
When I joined earlier this evening, there were a range of payment amounts on offer - but £25 was pre-populated...so I went with that.  Only afterwards did I see that £70 was the 'recommended amount'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 21:34:28
They don't explain the membership fee very well, £12 minimum, £70 recommended. I'm sure that recommended figure is new as I don't recall seeing it on their website before.

Apparently their membership is up 5k since the election, about a 10% increase.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 21:45:46
My wife and I will also be joining....but I will be hoping for a thorough review of what the party is about. It is not enough just to say that you will be the moderating influence on left or right.....there has to be a distinctive and, I would hope, courageous vision of what 'liberal values' actually are.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 21:56:03
And Ive joined the labour party.

Im not going to stand by and watch again.  Its time to get active.

Mind you I live in Chippenham so Ive not got a chance in hell of ever seeing a labour mp but its what I believe in.  Me and the other 3 lefties in town will have a lovely time.  Until we end up fighting over the one copy of the guardian that comes into the town and start splinter groups.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 23:12:34
I don't expect many to share that view, by the way.  Just the way I feel.

Reflects my view entirely. I'd do the same if I had a vote in the UK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, May 11, 2015, 06:57:25
Reflects my view entirely. I'd do the same if I had a vote in the UK.

When do/did you lose the right to vote in the UK?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Monday, May 11, 2015, 08:28:01
When do/did you lose the right to vote in the UK?

After 15 years away. The UK shares its vote expiry policy with countries like Malta, Denmark and Ireland - you can understand how small countries like Ireland with large overseas populations would be concerned about their results being skewed by their ex-pats. The USA, France, Germany and Italy are among many countries that allow a vote to all passport-holders by right.

I used to get upset about not having a right to vote in anyone's national election, so I'm looking into getting French nationality to be able to vote where politics actually affects my daily life. Then you really will be able to call me a

cum filled frog clunge


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, May 11, 2015, 09:16:09
I assume you have permanent residency status? Is that not enough to vote in the French system then? Seems strange that you would be allowed to stay indefinitely but have no say on how the country is being run.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 11, 2015, 09:21:45
I assume you have permanent residency status? Is that not enough to vote in the French system then? Seems strange that you would be allowed to stay indefinitely but have no say on how the country is being run.

It's the same here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Monday, May 11, 2015, 09:24:41
I assume you have permanent residency status? Is that not enough to vote in the French system then? Seems strange that you would be allowed to stay indefinitely but have no say on how the country is being run.

Yes, all EU nationals have permanent residency, but the vote is restricted to French nationals. Think that's the same in the UK. It seems like a discrepancy that you can end up without a vote anywhere in Europe, but it's an area that the EU hasn't aligned, despite challenges.

To be fair, I suppose it's up to me to take nationality if I'm sufficiently committed to being involved in the politics of where I live.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 11, 2015, 09:24:57
 This is a good one......obviously Gove has been brought into the Justice Dept, to bin the UK's signature to European Human Rights.  

 Thoughts?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Monday, May 11, 2015, 09:26:38
This is a good one......obviously Gove has been brought into the Justice Dept, to bin the UK's signature to European Human Rights.  

 Thougts?

Bye bye, Daily Mail nation, drifting disunited off into the north Atlantic.  :bye:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 11, 2015, 09:47:35
Bye bye, Dail Mail disunited nation, drifting off into the north Atlantic.  :bye:

I'm particularly interested to hear from our nascent Lib Dem members on this, as it's just the sort of thing which would have been blocked in Coalition...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, May 11, 2015, 09:54:57
I don't see what we can possibly gain from scrapping this bill.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 11, 2015, 10:29:29
I don't see what we can possibly gain from scrapping this bill.

It's really to do with being able to deport the likes of Abu Qatada....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, May 11, 2015, 10:33:24
I can't see a vote for leaving the EU.  I think most will vote reluctantly to stay in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, May 11, 2015, 10:45:27
This is a good one......obviously Gove has been brought into the Justice Dept, to bin the UK's signature to European Human Rights. 

 Thoughts?
All work on this is irrelevant while we're in the EU. They will not let us scrap it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 11, 2015, 10:48:57
All work on this is irrelevant while we're in the EU. They will not let us scrap it.

ECHR, is nothing to do with the EU....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Monday, May 11, 2015, 11:21:48
ECHR, is nothing to do with the EU....

Iirc Holland pulled out of that when they went thru their immigration issues


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JanTheMan on Monday, May 11, 2015, 13:09:14
I voted yellow, as I did last time. Unfortunately my mp was turned over by the Tory (as per 80pc of LD seats!). That said I was happy with the last coalition set up.

It would take a lot for me to vote labour since I spent 18months working for a local authority. In 10 years since I have never met a bigger bunch of umbitious mediocre work shy slackers. All just waiting for their undeserved pensions whilst complaining about working conditions etc etc etc. To a man and women they were labour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 11, 2015, 13:17:15
I voted yellow, as I did last time. Unfortunately my mp was turned over by the Tory (as per 80pc of LD seats!). That said I was happy with the last coalition set up.

It would take a lot for me to vote labour since I spent 18months working for a local authority. In 10 years since I have never met a bigger bunch of umbitious mediocre work shy slackers. All just waiting for their undeserved pensions whilst complaining about working conditions etc etc etc. To a man and women they were labour.

Ah Local Government.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 11, 2015, 14:17:26
Iirc Holland pulled out of that when they went thru their immigration issues

Very much doubt it....there are 47 countries signed up....including Russia.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, May 11, 2015, 15:04:55
interesting issues

1         non Brits resident here may vote in local government elections but not national elections - seems logical enough
2         Reg (as he knows!) is quite right about the European Court of Human Rights being unconnected with EU - it was incorporated into British Law in the House of Commons and we are entirely free to repeal this as with any British laws anytime.

I'm afraid this barely seems to register with the mob wing of the Eurosceptics where the word "Europe" brings down the sort of red mist that led the neanderthals of Portsmouth to kick in the windows of a local Paediatrician


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Monday, May 11, 2015, 15:51:20
Take away press and tv bias and concentrate on policies and you get this:
https://data.voteforpolicies.org.uk/countries/results#countries/england


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Monday, May 11, 2015, 16:12:14
This is a good one......obviously Gove has been brought into the Justice Dept, to bin the UK's signature to European Human Rights.  

 Thoughts?

The Uk can repeal the Human Rights Act but it would change nothing and would simply put us back in the situation we were in before the UK Act was enacted (ie appeal a UK decision to the ECHR).

My understanding is that all EU states are members of the Council of Europe and signatories to the European Convention on European Rights.  Would it need the UK to leave the EU to remove itself from this control?

Not sure if I've got all that correct.  But I have more legal qualifications than Michael Gove (as he has none).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 11, 2015, 16:20:46
The Uk can repeal the Human Rights Act but it would change nothing and would simply put us back in the situation we were in before the UK Act was enacted (ie appeal a UK decision to the ECHR).

My understanding is that all EU states are members of the Council of Europe and signatories to the European Convention on European Rights.  Would it need the UK to leave the EU to remove itself from this control?

Not sure if I've got all that correct.  But I have more legal qualifications than Michael Gove (as he has none).

The Convention was signed as part of the post war settlement, to try and ensure it would be more difficult for fascism to raise its ugly head.

I don't think even the Tories, are proposing leaving the Convention....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Monday, May 11, 2015, 16:22:05
It would take a lot for me to vote labour since I spent 18months working for a local authority. In 10 years since I have never met a bigger bunch of umbitious mediocre work shy slackers. All just waiting for their undeserved pensions whilst complaining about working conditions etc etc etc. To a man and women they were labour.

Whereas my experience is totally different.  I worked in a Local Authority for several years and can honestly say I worked my bollocks off, regularly working late into the evening and weekends for no extra pay.  And just to compound the stereotype, vast majority were not members of a Union, most were not interested in politics and, of those that were, there were as many Tories and Lib Dems as Labour voters. 

I left 3 years ago to join the private sector doing the same type of work.  I've more than doubled my take home pay.  I work much less hours and am under much less pressure.  Those I left behind have had 5 years of pay freezes and cuts to staffing - everyone now working more for less.  There's probably more Labour voters amongst them now...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 13:14:25
Whereas my experience is totally different.  I worked in a Local Authority for several years and can honestly say I worked my bollocks off, regularly working late into the evening and weekends for no extra pay.  And just to compound the stereotype, vast majority were not members of a Union, most were not interested in politics and, of those that were, there were as many Tories and Lib Dems as Labour voters. 

I left 3 years ago to join the private sector doing the same type of work.  I've more than doubled my take home pay.  I work much less hours and am under much less pressure.  Those I left behind have had 5 years of pay freezes and cuts to staffing - everyone now working more for less.  There's probably more Labour voters amongst them now...


Just out of interest what department of a Local Authority did you work in? I have worked in two different Authorities over the years and my experiences were pretty similar to JanTheMan - but then again I a pretty sure he like I is a Planner - yes we worked into the evenings sometimes but never at weekends and there we a lot of staff as young as their early 40's who were aiming for retirement and could tell you almost exactly what that pension would be in c.20 years time.

I get the point about Unions, however I would also say from personal experience (I was a Union rep for a couple of years) if you are a professional working in an LPA Unison have no interest in you - we got zero support when in dispute with the Council. My entire Council career was under Labour and we seemed to be in dispute with them all the time (I had at least 3 days out on strike) - I never did understand why we as a Union paid Labour, who then tried to screw us over when led to us going out on strike buggering up services for the public - but what did I know.

Now in the private sector the work is more interesting and better paid to a degree, however I work much harder and longer hours and the pressure if considerably greater - swings and roundabouts I suppose.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 13:55:00
swings and roundabouts I suppose.
Presumably mainly roundabouts though, if you're a planner? :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 10:43:53
 Erstwhile Trust chairman hopeful Justin Tomlinson has got a new gig working for IDS, as Minister for Disabled People  even the Tory supporting Independent,is presumably wondering, whether, given his support for cutting the benefits of peoiple with cancer, and those to disabled children, this is a good thing.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-camerons-new-disabilities-minister-voted-against-protecting-disabled-childrens-benefits-10246049.html?origin=internalSearch


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 10:54:42
Erstwhile Trust chairman hopeful Justin Tomlinson has got a new gig working for IDS, as Minister for Disabled People  even the Tory supporting Independent, has questioned whether given his support for cutting the benefits of peoiple with cancer, and those to disabled children, this is a good thing.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-camerons-new-disabilities-minister-voted-against-protecting-disabled-childrens-benefits-10246049.html?origin=internalSearch
What a fucking wanker. Now chief arse licker of the abhorrent IDS.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 10:59:34
What a fucking wanker. Now chief arse licker of the abhorrent IDS.

At least he failed in his campaign to become Trust chair.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 14:47:49
This obviously needs taking in context when one considers the outlet within which it was published, but quite a thought provoking piece.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...hinging-why-the-Left-are-such-bad-losers.html

I have genuinely been a little shocked by the backlash from the left both prior to and after the election, the right are always branded the nasty parties but it does appear that this is not reflected by the supporters of either side on social media as the patronising abuse heaped on anyone thinking of (or actually voting) has been incredible?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 15:01:37
hur hur - I gave him his leaflet back when he posted it through my door the other week
"the Duke of Devonshire noted "No one who hasn't been a Parliamentary Under Secretary of State has any conception of how unimportant a Parliamentary Under Secretary of State is""
fucking hell that's an extra 31k a year on top of his 65K - plus expenses


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 15:08:36
hur hur - I gave him his leaflet back when he posted it through my door the other week
"the Duke of Devonshire noted "No one who hasn't been a Parliamentary Under Secretary of State has any conception of how unimportant a Parliamentary Under Secretary of State is""


The Duke of Cornwall, has been sending notes to Government officials over the last 5 years....he may have had an opinion, on the importance or otherwise of Mr Tomlinson's sinecure, but will we ever know, Cameron is trying to suppress publication of the letters, even though the highest judges say there's no reason in law not to publish.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 15:13:55
publish, or be damned sirrah!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 15:21:18
publish, or be damned sirrah!

Apparently they are being published....but the Government changed the law in 2011, to prevent publication thereafter.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 15:26:14
This obviously needs taking in context when one considers the outlet within which it was published, but quite a thought provoking piece.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...hinging-why-the-Left-are-such-bad-losers.html

I have genuinely been a little shocked by the backlash from the left both prior to and after the election, the right are always branded the nasty parties but it does appear that this is not reflected by the supporters of either side on social media as the patronising abuse heaped on anyone thinking of (or actually voting) has been incredible?
Counter that by reading some of the bile in the online comments section of the Daily Mail, or some of the shit posted by people reposting Britain First memes (and their like), and it's not a left-right thing. It's a "people think it's OK to be really unpleasant online in a way they wouldn't in person" thing.

However, that doesn't absolve the tantrums of the losers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 15:35:26
Counter that by reading some of the bile in the online comments section of the Daily Mail, or some of the shit posted by people reposting Britain First memes (and their like), and it's not a left-right thing. It's a "people think it's OK to be really unpleasant online in a way they wouldn't in person" thing.

However, that doesn't absolve the tantrums of the losers.

I do agree that many seem to have disengaged the part of your brain that suggests 'would I say this to someones face' during this campaign. To be honest I would expect such crap on the Mail comments section, its been more some of the general stuff posted on here, Faceache from people I know should know better and other forums I frequent - its always people saying what clueless arseholes people are for voting tory?

Perhaps my views have been blurred by reading too much George Orwell in the past....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 15:39:28
The Duke of Cornwall, has been sending notes to Government officials over the last 5 years....he may have had an opinion, on the importance or otherwise of Mr Tomlinson's sinecure, but will we ever know, Cameron is trying to suppress publication of the letters, even though the highest judges say there's no reason in law not to publish.

And Mr Brown before him and Mr Blair before him... this has been going on for 10 years now (and thus the first 5 under Labour).

On first glance he doesn't have much of interest to say...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 15:42:20
I do agree that many seem to have disengaged the part of your brain that suggests 'would I say this to someones face' during this campaign. To be honest I would expect such crap on the Mail comments section, its been more some of the general stuff posted on here, Faceache from people I know should know better and other forums I frequent - its always people saying what clueless arseholes people are for voting tory?
Well if you're looking on fb, there's plenty of right-wing vitriol/bigotry from the Britain First re-posters (many of whom are normally quite sane, but seem to go  beserk at the sight of a meme with a poppy in it) and on here, look no further than the (in the circumstances) ironically named Red and Proud's outpourings or even our very own tame Nazi, Ironside, for the "everything bad in my life is Labour's fault and all their supporters are cretins" counterbalance.

I do agree though that some of the post-election outbursts from Labour supporters have been embarrassing, just don't think it's a uniquely "left" thing as the Telegraph piece suggested. We'd have seen the same if Labour had won


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 15:56:16
Well if you're looking on fb, there's plenty of right-wing vitriol/bigotry from the Britain First re-posters (many of whom are normally quite sane, but seem to go  beserk at the sight of a meme with a poppy in it) and on here, look no further than the (in the circumstances) ironically named Red and Proud's outpourings or even our very own tame Nazi, Ironside, for the "everything bad in my life is Labour's fault and all their supporters are cretins" counterbalance.

I do agree though that some of the post-election outbursts from Labour supporters have been embarrassing, just don't think it's a uniquely "left" thing as the Telegraph piece suggested. We'd have seen the same if Labour had won

The irony in this, is that in no sense can Labour be seen as a party of the Left, whereas the party which had a manifesto resembling Labour's 82 "longest suicide note in history" was rather successful


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 15:59:07
The irony in this, is that in no sense can Labour be seen as a party of the Left, whereas the party which had a manifesto resembling Labour's 82 "longest suicide note in history" was rather successful
Yes, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that most of those throwing their toys out of the pram on social media are broadly of the left (or would certainly look that way to the Telegraph). Even if they have voted for a wolf in sheep's clothing (or sheep in wolf's clothing, depending on your point of view)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 16:06:52
Yes, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that most of those throwing their toys out of the pram on social media are broadly of the left (or would certainly look that way to the Telegraph). Even if they have voted for a wolf in sheep's clothing (or sheep in wolf's clothing, depending on your point of view)

As Margaret Thatcher foiund out, being savaged by a dead sheep, can be very nasty. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Friday, May 15, 2015, 20:16:33
It's not hard to see that the people working and representing us in Westminster are self-serving wankers with many vested personal, family and social interests. They have little genuine desire to do serve the public or cause beneficial change for anyone but their narrow circle of interests.

I am pleased to see the election results have caused a minor spike in activist groups but really only something radical and en-masse will cause the change that is necessary. The grip that the ruling demogrpahic hold is strong.

I work in education and have met a small handful of people who are just fucking amazing at their jobs and everyone agrees they are amazing. They have great ideas and capture everyone's attention immediately. Those are the people who should be in charge; experts in their field. Our new Minister for Justice is trained with a 2:1 in English and a career in journalism. And is a complete cunt.

I have little interest in our politics/media apart from tactical voting at election time. It's futile; whoever wins there is a majority of cunts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: OOH! SHAUN TAYLOR on Friday, May 15, 2015, 20:19:13
The Oxford fan talks sense  :nod:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Saturday, May 16, 2015, 14:17:51
Anyone else see the irony in the governments suggested new rules around strike ballots.
The unions now need 40% of those eligible to vote in favour.
Funny then that a majority government only got 36% of those that voted, let alone those that were eligible to vote


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, May 16, 2015, 14:21:11
meh, unions have held to much power when it comes to striking, good on the government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Saturday, May 16, 2015, 15:05:17
meh, unions have held to much power when it comes to striking, good on the government.

Yes, the only employer in the country that can change the rules on the fly to fuck it's employees. Good on them!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 16, 2015, 16:00:11
 See Osborne is going to get cutting sharpish, with an emergency budget in July, to take 12 bn out of the welfare budget, would seem like a good time to do it as there's effectively no opposition, which will probably mean people resorting to direct action.  Boris's water cannon will no doubt see some service.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, May 16, 2015, 16:33:25
Good


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Saturday, May 16, 2015, 17:39:55
Anyone else see the irony in the governments suggested new rules around strike ballots.
The unions now need 40% of those eligible to vote in favour.
Funny then that a majority government only got 36% of those that voted, let alone those that were eligible to vote

The difference is everyone has a chance to vote for a government but not everyone has a chance to vote in a union ballot of which a strike causes significant disruption to those with no say.

For example there are only about 22,000 members of firefighters' union but there are circa 45 million voters. Thus that example is not comparing like for like.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, May 16, 2015, 19:56:23
meh, unions have held to much power when it comes to striking, good on the government.
:nod:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Saturday, May 16, 2015, 20:31:58
The difference is everyone has a chance to vote for a government but not everyone has a chance to vote in a union ballot of which a strike causes significant disruption to those with no say.

For example there are only about 22,000 members of firefighters' union but there are circa 45 million voters. Thus that example is not comparing like for like.

But only those people that have a vote will go on strike, not the entire population.

And if you are talking about impact, I think it's fair to say that a decision made by the government will impact more people.

Anyway it's more about the fact that the percentage is if total voters eligible. The assumption being that if you can't or won't choose one way or another you must be a no.
Presumably that means that 34% of the population didn't vote in the general election they must have voted against the government (whoever it was going to be)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, May 17, 2015, 19:15:41
meh, unions have held to much power when it comes to striking, good on the government.
totally disagree. Unions are a good thing and I encourage everyone to join one


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, May 17, 2015, 19:21:33
Unions do good work, no denying it, works rights and conditions, legal representation when companies try to screw you over, etc. But they also need to live in the real world when it comes to pay, though their job is to get the best deal for their members.

But its specifically the ease at which strikes can be called that pisses me off about them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, May 17, 2015, 19:24:09
Unions do good work, no denying it, works rights and conditions, legal representation when companies try to screw you over, etc. But they also need to live in the real world when it comes to pay, though their job is to get the best deal for their members.

But its specifically the ease at which strikes can be called that pisses me off about them.
nobody wants to go on strike. Sometimes it just has to happen though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, May 17, 2015, 19:26:19
nobody wants to go on strike. Sometimes it just has to happen though.

I'll leave it there, because sooner or later I'll piss off Tans!

I don't think striking ultimately works (FBU, Miners, etc).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Sunday, May 17, 2015, 19:42:00
With respect to the miners history has proven Scargill correct and thatcher a liar


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, May 17, 2015, 19:43:37
With respect to the miners history has proven Scargill correct and thatcher a liar

Didn't help the miners much though did it?

Generally in favour of unions as a concept, but Len McCluskey comes across as a power mad lunatic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Sunday, May 17, 2015, 20:13:27
I'll leave it there, because sooner or later I'll piss off Tans!

I don't think striking ultimately works (FBU, Miners, etc).

:D

Meh


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 09:57:43
totally disagree. Unions are a good thing and I encourage everyone to join one

I would add a word of caution to this, if you are inclined to join a union in your workplace, do some research regarding what their objectives are... from personal experience if you are in the 'professional' grades within a Local Authority they are happy to take your subs but not inclined to help if you are in dispute as you are not part of their key objectives.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: skiptotheLouMacari on Monday, May 18, 2015, 10:23:46
With respect to the miners history has proven Scargill correct and thatcher a liar

Yeah but surely we couldn't just keep on diging beneath the surface for coal otherwise what will stop the country collapsing on itself?  Unions do some good but also holds the rest of the country to ransome with its demands, and why if you're in a union and disagree with a walkout are you labelled a scab?  That is pure bullying tactics used to intimidate people, and remember union reps still get paid when striking the work force doesn't you have a choice.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DarloSTFC84 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 10:31:42
I would add a word of caution to this, if you are inclined to join a union in your workplace, do some research regarding what their objectives are... from personal experience if you are in the 'professional' grades within a Local Authority they are happy to take your subs but not inclined to help if you are in dispute as you are not part of their key objectives.

I'm with Unison, I had a recent dispute, they were superb. I'd have been totally lost without them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 10:33:49
With respect to the miners history has proven Scargill correct and thatcher a liar

In what way? Not being argumentative, just interested?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 10:39:05
I'm with Unison, I had a recent dispute, they were superb. I'd have been totally lost without them.

They may have changed (out of interested what do you do) - I ask as when we had a dispute which only affected professional grades (it was to do with the Council, overnight and without any consultation, abolishing the essential car user allowance  - so we continued to have to provide a car for work but they wouldn't pay anymore).

We entered a dispute and asked for support from Unison regional office, heard nothing, asked again, got nothing, finally got to speak to a regional officer (who wouldn't come out to meet us) and he confirmed that they didn't have the resources to help us, and as we were professional grades we were outside their area of concentration at that stage which was equal wages for female workers and minimum wage matters as that gets headlines!

In the end we sorted it ourselves without any union assistance and I rapidly resigned as a Union Rep and left the Union.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DarloSTFC84 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 10:45:01
They may have changed (out of interested what do you do)

I work for South Central Ambulance Service, my dispute was a personal one only affecting myself (which shouldn't have been the case). Granted, I've been with Unison for 12 years and paid my subs every month without using them, up until March. But I was grateful that they were there.. On that basis I will continue to pay my subs, for the 'just in case' scenario. Oh, it's nice to get a discount card come through annually for companies I'll never use too!  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, May 18, 2015, 11:21:05
Yeah but surely we couldn't just keep on diging beneath the surface for coal otherwise what will stop the country collapsing on itself?  Unions do some good but also holds the rest of the country to ransome with its demands, and why if you're in a union and disagree with a walkout are you labelled a scab?  That is pure bullying tactics used to intimidate people, and remember union reps still get paid when striking the work force doesn't you have a choice.
in my experience reps do not get paid when striking at all. Which reps are you referring to?
Bullying tactics? What about the bullying tactics from employers? The issues that drive union members to striking.

There are numerous benefits from being a union member. I even had my will done for free through mine.

On another note I've joined the hunt saboteurs association today. This Tory administration and its leader enjoy the sick pastime of watching dogs rip wildlife to pieces and will repeal the law if they can. Ive got to try to do my bit to stop it. I've also written to Buckland and Tomlinson. I'm sure they'll tow the party line as their noses are firmly up senior Tories anuses.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: skiptotheLouMacari on Monday, May 18, 2015, 11:40:59
in my experience reps do not get paid when striking at all. Which reps are you referring to?
Bullying tactics? What about the bullying tactics from employers? The issues that drive union members to striking.

There are numerous benefits from being a union member. I even had my will done for free through mine.

I stand corrected it is not the rep but the union chiefs who encourage striking that still get paid.  But what i dont get is the firemans strike when they do 3 or 4 on 3 or 4 off i know plenty who moonlight during their time off but can't afford Christmas this year but can still afford to strike. i am all for the rights of people and working conditions and yet certain union fat cats think it's morally correct to hold the country to ransome with strikes over busy /festive periods. Can you also confirm why if i dont agree with strike action and go into work because i cant afford not to be in work i am a scab? It's insulting intimidating and stinks.
As for the government how is it the tories fault!  Aren't all politicians and parties liars they promise this and that and deliver the other. They won the majority of votes, we live in a democracy, that's the price of freedom.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, May 18, 2015, 11:45:06
In what way? Not being argumentative, just interested?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25549596
I think this article throws some light on it. You also have to look at the techniques Thatcher applied to win the Miners strike.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, May 18, 2015, 12:03:15
in my experience reps do not get paid when striking at all. Which reps are you referring to?
Bullying tactics? What about the bullying tactics from employers? The issues that drive union members to striking.

There are numerous benefits from being a union member. I even had my will done for free through mine.

I stand corrected it is not the rep but the union chiefs who encourage striking that still get paid.  But what i dont get is the firemans strike when they do 3 or 4 on 3 or 4 off i know plenty who moonlight during their time off but can't afford Christmas this year but can still afford to strike. i am all for the rights of people and working conditions and yet certain union fat cats think it's morally correct to hold the country to ransome with strikes over busy /festive periods. Can you also confirm why if i dont agree with strike action and go into work because i cant afford not to be in work i am a scab? It's insulting intimidating and stinks.
As for the government how is it the tories fault!  Aren't all politicians and parties liars they promise this and that and deliver the other. They won the majority of votes, we live in a democracy, that's the price of freedom.

Union chiefs are elected by their membership. They can be removed if desired.

There is plenty of information about the fire fighters dispute available to read. Unsurprisingly I am fully in support of them.

If you are a union member and go to work whilst your colleagues are out losing pay then it would be you out of order. You would see any benefits that the dispute being resolved could bring yet would still be getting paid whilst those who fight for their futures do not. Very selfish and they are rightly called scabs. If you are not a union member then fair enough but you should not see any of the benefits of any resolved dispute as you are happy to work under the conditions your fellow workers are not.

It's the Tories fault as they are trying to take away union rights.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DarloSTFC84 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 12:13:10
This is getting fiesty.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 13:15:17
I don't get unions and I don't get striking. If you don't like where you work, for whatever reason, you should try to resolve the issues with management and if that fails you have two choices - put up with it, or get a new job.

I did the new job route a year ago, I'm now getting more money, working closer to home and love the new job and company.

Don't know why anyone would want to continue working somewhere they hate so much they have to go on strike. You might win one battle but there will be another and you're back to square one. A lifetime of being pissed off all the time.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, May 18, 2015, 13:20:48
The fire fighters dispute isn't about pay.  They also leave picket lines to go on shouts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DarloSTFC84 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 13:25:13
I don't get unions and I don't get striking. If you don't like where you work, for whatever reason, you should try to resolve the issues with management and if that fails you have two choices - put up with it, or get a new job.

I did the new job route a year ago, I'm now getting more money, working closer to home and love the new job and company.

Don't know why anyone would want to continue working somewhere they hate so much they have to go on strike. You might win one battle but there will be another and you're back to square one. A lifetime of being pissed off all the time.



It's not as simple as that though, is it? - Unions aren't just about striking. Ours are there for a great deal of reasons. Staff welfare and support being the main one. Personally, I love my job, but if I'm ever being treated unfairly then I have somewhere to go to fight that. More likely to win with the union on your side, speaking from very recent experience. I love my job and what I do and wont be forced out of it due to being victimised.

Sometimes it's not as easy as 'just tell a manager'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 18, 2015, 14:55:38
I don't get unions and I don't get striking.

You could do with reading something like EP Thompson's.....The Making of the English Working Class.

We're where we are today,  a consequence of generations of workers, and their struggle for improved conditions from often uncaring owners and management.

Occasionally, you'd get enlightened owners/management, thus making it easier for improvements to be achieved, but not always.

A classic Tory attack on Trade Unionism, was when Thatcher banned workers at GCHQ from association in a union, just as had happened to the Tolpuddle Martyrs.

She described Trade Unionists as the "Enemy Within"   Fair play to the old bat, at least she had the balls to make it plain whose side she was on, unlike David Cameron.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 15:30:15
We're where we are today,  a consequence of generations of workers, and their struggle for improved conditions from often uncaring owners and management.

I don't dispute that but unions had a time and place and haven't evolved enough.

There is plenty of legislation and plenty of companies that go above and beyond that. More could be done, I'd like to see the role the unions play move to internal representation within individual companies via legislation. Taking the good bits and leaving the bad behind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 18, 2015, 18:31:04
I don't dispute that but unions had a time and place and haven't evolved enough.

There is plenty of legislation and plenty of companies that go above and beyond that. More could be done, I'd like to see the role the unions play move to internal representation within individual companies via legislation. Taking the good bits and leaving the bad behind.

Workers conditions should never be taken as a given....look at what is happening in Qatar, where it is estimated that 62 people will have died for each WC game that will be played....yet the multi nationals involved with FIFA are happy enough to go along with it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Saturday, June 27, 2015, 09:12:32
So has everyone forgotten about politics?

To those that joined a party after the election, have you got involved or is being a member and paying the fees enough?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:03:21
So has everyone forgotten about politics?

To those that joined a party after the election, have you got involved or is being a member and paying the fees enough?

I went to a welcome event and decided that everyone was far more earnest than I. Got a leadership election vote though, not really sure which way I'd go: Norman Lamb comes across a really great human being and I really respect his work on mental health, but he will be tainted by the coalition and he's not the most charismatic. Farron is a bit more of a Charles Kennedy left-wing liberal and a very good public speaker, but I'm slightly worried by the amount of senior Lib Dems who actually know him who really don't seem to like the guy.

Ultimately I think I'm just a bit too cynical and balanced for party politics, everyone involved seems to think that their party is great in all areas and that all the others are full on evil.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:04:33
Some Labour canvassers came and knocked my door yesterday. As I posted before in this thread, there was no sign of them before the election, so to appear 8 weeks post-election was a little futile.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:12:09
So has everyone forgotten about politics?

To those that joined a party after the election, have you got involved or is being a member and paying the fees enough?

I went to a meeting.  Had a discussion.  We mainly have to elect a new leader.  If I am available I will go to the conference at the end of September.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, July 8, 2015, 14:10:17
So then, first Tory budget since 1996. Some quite widespread fiscal changes which I can't believe none of you have commented on yet.

What say you lefties about the welfare cuts?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, July 8, 2015, 14:17:25
No real surprises, poor get poorer while the asset rich and corporations get breaks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, July 8, 2015, 15:00:11
To be honest Ive been driving up to London to work.  Im now here but it may take me time to have a look at the budget as I have to build up so I don't immediately make my way to parliment with a and start trying to abuse people.

Ill let you know tomorrow when I can provide a more coherent, considered response.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Wednesday, July 8, 2015, 15:01:57
No real surprises, poor get poorer while the asset rich and corporations get breaks.
Standard Tory policy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Wednesday, July 8, 2015, 15:13:41
Lots of spin by Osborne but in effect this was a tax raising budget - although a lot of us will not notice it directly.  Somebody working with a wife and two kids will be up to £2000 a year worse off after losing their tax credits.  Young get no encouragement at all, basically it is work or learn up to 21 with nothing else.  Grants to poor families who want to send a child to uni have gone to be replaced by a "loan"!  £20,000 a year limit on welfare payments per family - do not disagree with that!!


Title: Re:
Post by: Honkytonk on Thursday, July 9, 2015, 22:41:11
Essentially the budget punishes poor young people whilst providing breaks for those with enough money that things like student loans and child tax credits are not important.

Living wage is fine. If it rises with the cost of living by 2020. Which it probably won't. So you'll essentially have a minimum wage that doesn't match reality or what people actually need. Possibly even worse off than now, especially in rural areas with petrol prices going nowhere but up and public transport about as common and convenient as hens teeth.

I do think people who have a lot of kids, in the nicest possible way, need to be pubushed a bit. But then I think punishing 3 child families is too much.

I'm struggling to see how my little sister is ever going to escape debt now she is off to uni. I struggle to see how the people who got us into this mess in the first place are still off scott free if not getting breaks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, July 10, 2015, 06:14:38
Living wage only applies to those 25 and up. So if you can't afford to go to uni any more, you won't be entitled to a decent wage in whatever shitty job you can find.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, July 10, 2015, 07:04:59
Living wage only applies to those 25 and up. So if you can't afford to go to uni any more, you won't be entitled to a decent wage in whatever shitty job you can find.
I haven't had a chance to go through it yet. Did he focus on the tax avoidance loopholes utilised by his mates? I'm sure he must have done, as the revenue earned would be substantial and, as we're still in a period of austerity, the Chancellor has a responsibility to ensure that any monies he can save, or get, he is actively targeting.

Or is he just going after the most vulnerable and helpless in society?

(No need to answer, it's a rhetorical question).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Friday, July 10, 2015, 08:06:47
I haven't had a chance to go through it yet. Did he focus on the tax avoidance loopholes utilised by his mates? I'm sure he must have done, as the revenue earned would be substantial and, as we're still in a period of austerity, the Chancellor has a responsibility to ensure that any monies he can save, or get, he is actively targeting.

Or is he just going after the most vulnerable and helpless in society?

(No need to answer, it's a rhetorical question).
His family are reputed to have made £6 million from  recent offshore deal - will that get taxed?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Friday, July 10, 2015, 08:09:37
He's stolent he phrase 'living wage' and applied it to something that doesn't actually amount to the actual agreed living wage. It's a con.

Much like ceasing child poverty by just redefining it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, July 10, 2015, 08:22:48
I have zero issue with abolishing the tex credits completely - saves not only that money but also the millions spent administering it.  However, it needs immediate rebalancing by having a minimum wage that equals the loss for individuals - the real Living Wage.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, July 10, 2015, 08:46:25
It's 2015. we need to free people from the tyranny of enforced labour. Don't poo poo this idea until you've done your research.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

http://basicincome.org.uk/reasons-support-basic-income/

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/01/paying-everyone-a-basic-income-would-kill-off-low-paid-menial-jobs

PS, yes I realise my left-wing views don't match my forum hitler reputation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, July 10, 2015, 08:49:26
Pros:

No need for an arbitrary minimum wage
No need for an army of civil servants to administer means tested benefits
No benefits fraud
Increase in small business start-ups
No shitty jobs
No need for trade unions

Cons:

What do you do about immigrants/asylum seekers?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Friday, July 10, 2015, 08:52:46
Quote from: jayohaitchenn link=topic=55431.msg1338092#msg1338092 date=1436518166

Cons:

What do you do about immigrants/asylum seekers?

[/quote
Don't pay them a penny until they are contributing to OUR systems and deny them access to NHS services until they have paid NI fro at least six months.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, July 10, 2015, 09:05:49
Are foreign lives worth less then British ones then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, July 10, 2015, 09:09:08
PS, yes I realise my left-wing views don't match my forum hitler reputation.

Even Hitler called his party socialist.  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, July 10, 2015, 09:29:20
He's stolent he phrase 'living wage' and applied it to something that doesn't actually amount to the actual agreed living wage. It's a con.

Much like ceasing child poverty by just redefining it.

Unfortunately if you get to parrot something in a compliant right wing media enough it becomes the truth to the simple minded.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DRS on Friday, July 10, 2015, 11:03:12
So how will under 21s who are genuinely homeless survive with housing benefits for them potentially being stopped. All hostels rely on this to accommodate them.

Also how will this work.

18 Year old gets a Apprenticeship on £120 a week. Doesn't live with parents so has to private rent. Not entitled to housing benefit anymore. What the fuck does he do?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, July 10, 2015, 11:12:25
A wage of £120/week implies pay of just over £3/hour.  No one could be expected to support themselves on that.  I was earning more than that as a teenager doing holiday temp work in Swindon factories 25 years ago.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 10, 2015, 11:44:34
So how will under 21s who are genuinely homeless survive with housing benefits for them potentially being stopped. All hostels rely on this to accommodate them.

The traditional method is to turn to petty crime...usually drug dealing, whilst sofa surfing.

Back when I was that age, there was no such thing as housing benefit...admittedly the job market was better. 

Though a socialist by instinct, I've always believed in people being responsible for their own lives, as far as is possible.  By having this responsibility, then you are doing your bit for the wider collective society.

The collective should then look after those who are incapable of looking after themselves....your example is the sort of interface, which causes differences between Tories, Liberals and some socialists.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DRS on Friday, July 10, 2015, 11:51:32
A wage of £120/week implies pay of just over £3/hour.  No one could be expected to support themselves on that.  I was earning more than that as a teenager doing holiday temp work in Swindon factories 25 years ago.
Thats correct but YTS ,Apprentiships rtc do not have to adhere to national min wage. Reg is spot on really


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, July 10, 2015, 12:09:26
So how will under 21s who are genuinely homeless survive with housing benefits for them potentially being stopped. All hostels rely on this to accommodate them.

Quote
To prevent young people slipping straight into a life on benefits, from April 2017
the Budget will also remove the automatic entitlement to housing support for new
claims in Universal Credit from 18-21 year olds who are out of work. This will ensure
young people in the benefits system face the same choices as young people who work and who
may not be able to afford to leave home. There will be exemptions, including for vulnerable
young people, those who may not be able to return home to live with their parents,
and those
who have been in work for 6 months prior to making a claim, who will continue to be able to
receive housing support for up to 6 months while they look for work.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DRS on Friday, July 10, 2015, 12:12:18

Cheers Sam i am glad that's the case. Just be interesting to see what they deem as vulnerable now wont it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, July 10, 2015, 12:15:39
As I understand it (and I could be wrong) the removal of housing benefit is only for those out of work and claiming universal credit. If you're in work or training, you'll still be entitled.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Friday, July 10, 2015, 14:14:19
Living wage only applies to those 25 and up. So if you can't afford to go to uni any more, you won't be entitled to a decent wage in whatever shitty job you can find.

And does anyone really think this would happen if the young voted in the same numbers as pensioners? There are no surprises here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Friday, July 10, 2015, 14:34:48
And does anyone really think this would happen if the young voted in the same numbers as pensioners? There are no surprises here.

I always thought if everyone voted we'd have a much different political landscape, and it frustrated me greatly when friends who had really strong opinions on things didn't vote.

Then I was talking to some Australian friends recently, and they told me it's obligatory to vote there, yet their political parties behave in a very similar way to ours. That said, the majority of Australians are cunts of gargantuan proportions, so maybe there it does reflect the will of all the people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 13, 2015, 14:42:34
 I'm impressed by the Tories latest wheeze....floating the idea of compulsory privatised health care and sickness benefit etc.

 You'll pay into a fund let's say n pound, so will be entitled to take out n pound....but not n+1, if you need it.

 Of course not something in the manifesto back in May.....don't suppose they'll be shareholders in the insurance companies either.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Monday, July 13, 2015, 14:47:58
To be honest Reg with the introduction of auto enrolment on the pensions side, which is a huge shift from public to private later life provisions, it was only a matter of time before the government (of which ever colour) would follow suit on the risk side of things.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 13, 2015, 14:54:17
To be honest Reg with the introduction of auto enrolment on the pensions side, which is a huge shift from public to private later life provisions, it was only a matter of time before the government (of which ever colour) would follow suit on the risk side of things.

Honesty and politicians, are a bit like honesty and journos.  If it's such a good idea, why wasn't it flagged up in May? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, July 13, 2015, 20:51:29
Politics normally bores me to shite, you won't normally find me in threads such as this. It's clear that Cameron is a cock-womble, but asides from agreeing on that basic axiom I can't find myself to be bothered enough to even comment.....

But fox-hunting. Fuck you, you fucking cretin. Fuck you. Eugh. What an utterly, utterly vile thing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 13:21:31
The basic premise of population control is sensible. The way the hooting toffs go about it is not. I just think they should move fox hunts to inner cities at 4am. There. Problem solved.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 13:22:46
The basic premise of population control is sensible. The way the hooting toffs go about it is not. I just think they should move fox hunts to inner cities at 4am. There. Problem solved.

I think the horns might go down badly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 13:37:37
The basic premise of population control is sensible. The way the hooting toffs go about it is not. I just think they should move fox hunts to inner cities at 4am. There. Problem solved.
They could combine it with the benefits cuts and start hunting the urban poor. It's what they really want to do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 13:39:50
I think the horns might go down badly.

No worse than a siren going past. With a pack of hounds. And huge number of horses clattering on tarmac. And the general ohfwlohfwlohfwl sound of a pack of toffs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 13:42:55
the general ohfwlohfwlohfwl sound of a pack of toffs.
It's more of a chewing sound really
(http://www.companionconsultancy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/toffo1.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 13:46:41
The basic premise of population control is sensible. The way the hooting toffs go about it is not. I just think they should move fox hunts to inner cities at 4am. There. Problem solved.

http://www.ifaw.org/united-kingdom/our-work/banning-hunting-dogs/myths-realities#a4

Quote
I thought fox hunting was necessary to keep down the fox population. WOn't a ban cause a population explosion of foxes?

According to the UK Government Burns Commission, “the overall contribution of traditional fox hunting, within the overall total of control techniques involving dogs, is almost certainly insignificant in terms of the management of the fox population as a whole.” The fox population has not changed either since the Hunting Act as hunting with dogs never had a real effect on populations due to the fact that foxes are territorial predators whose population self-regulate. If you kill some in an area you are going to have foxes from other areas coming in to replace the population you eliminated. The proof of this is that when hunting with dogs stopped during the foot-and-mouth crisis, research from Bristol University (Harris, 2002) showed that the fox population did not increase. On the other side, if you try to kill many foxes in an area using all possible means, research (Baker & Harris, 2006) has shown that the likely effect is an increase in fox numbers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 13:52:02
Things have come to a pretty pass in this country when the chinless wonders are deprived of their inalienable right to send a pack of hounds out to rip a fox to bits.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 14:03:36
Isn't it a bit sad that there are more people up in arms about the proposed reintroduction of fox hunting than there are about everything else this greedy, grasping, self serving bunch of cunts are doing to fuck us up the arse?

Not saying that fox hunting should in any way be legitimised, just that there are much bigger issues most seem totally apathetic towards.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 14:48:54
Isn't it a bit sad that there are more people up in arms about the proposed reintroduction of fox hunting than there are about everything else this greedy, grasping, self serving bunch of cunts are doing to fuck us up the arse?

Not saying that fox hunting should in any way be legitimised, just that there are much bigger issues most seem totally apathetic towards.
I agree, we care more about the fucking foxes than we do about the poor, disabled and old in our society.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 16:48:01
Couldn't agree more.

There must be about 20-30 issues that are actually important compared to bloody fox welfare. This country never ceases to amaze me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 17:52:08
The irony of it being the SNP making Dave's government back down on fox hunting will, no doubt, be largely ignored by our right wing press.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 20:03:08
I think Sturgeon could lose some support over this.  Whether you agree with fox-hunting or not, all the bill would have done would have been to bring the law in England & Wales in line with what it is in Scotland.  The SNP can't be that bothered by the content of the bill, or they would have done something about the law as it stands in Scotland.  There's no substance to this stance.  It's not done on principle...which would be easier to respect and understand.  Just seems to be an exercise in getting up the noses of the Tories and their supporters.  Doing the right thing, maybe, but for all the wrong reasons.

Agitate, annoy, irritate, piss people off.  Is that the new strategy for Scottish independence?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 20:04:52
Couldn't agree more.

There must be about 20-30 issues that are actually important compared to bloody fox welfare. This country never ceases to amaze me.
That's not the fault of those objecting to the relaxation of the ban though. It was Cameron who chose to use what we keep being told is valuable parliamentary time to do favours for his mates


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 20:07:44
Just seems to be an exercise in getting up the noses of the Tories and their supporters.  Doing the right thing, maybe, but for all the wrong reasons.
tbf there's a bit more to it than that. English Tory MPs have continually blocked SNP amendments to the Scotland Act despite the promises made in the days running up to the referendum. So this is a bit of tit for tat - if English Tories are going to mess with exclusively Scottish legislation, and (apparently) break the "Pledge" made to the Scots in doing so, then the Scots are going to make life hard for them in return. Cuts both ways.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 20:22:09
I'm impressed by the Tories latest wheeze....floating the idea of compulsory privatised health care and sickness benefit etc.

Of course not something in the manifesto back in May.....don't suppose they'll be shareholders in the insurance companies either.
Great idea, Osborne

Oh wait a minute, the Liberals introduced it 100 years ago and called it National Insurance

So where's that money gone - the government, keen to reduce debt, has borrowed from the Fund for other purposes and there isn't much left.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 16, 2015, 16:07:51
So Tim Farron has got the Lib Dem gig, went to a meting with him once and must say I was very impressed with the guy and his ability to cut through bollocks to get things sorted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, July 16, 2015, 18:06:57
He's a good speaker, and very much out of the Charles Kennedy mould politically. If Kendall wins the Labour vote, Farron's Lib Dems will absolutely be to her left economically as well as socially (where I'd argue the Libs have been left of Labour for 20 years). Will face some tough questions about his faith (and more specifically, abstaining from one gay marriage vote - not against, and not all of them, as will probably be written- Theyworkforyou (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11923/tim_farron/westmorland_and_lonsdale/votes) rates him as strongly in favour ) but he could revive them, particularly if Labour implode.

For the record, I voted Lamb, who I agree with more politically, but think Farron might well connect with the public better.

Now, anyone for Jeremy Corbyn? Supposedly leading the polls for Labour leader. I can't see it happening.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, July 16, 2015, 18:07:24
So Tim Farron has got the Lib Dem gig, went to a meting with him once and must say I was very impressed with the guy and his ability to cut through bollocks to get things sorted.


Always nice when you meet a politician that doesn't specialise in faecal buffing.  This was very much the case when I met Charles Kennedy on several occasions (Rest his soul). Even though he was aware of his problems and aware that everyone knew about his problems, that never took away the genuine character of open, honest and approachable behaviour that he stood by.  A great man. An even better Lib Dem. Nice to know that Tim Farron holds similar values. I'll watch closely this.

Time for Lib Dem to rebuild again after (naively) being shafted by the Tories.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 16, 2015, 18:13:29
tbf there's a bit more to it than that. English Tory MPs have continually blocked SNP amendments to the Scotland Act despite the promises made in the days running up to the referendum. So this is a bit of tit for tat - if English Tories are going to mess with exclusively Scottish legislation, and (apparently) break the "Pledge" made to the Scots in doing so, then the Scots are going to make life hard for them in return. Cuts both ways.

Fair enough then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 16, 2015, 18:15:35
I voted for Farron on the basis that it's all about a rebuilding job now, and he seemed best able to get on with that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, July 16, 2015, 19:55:27
He's a good speaker, and very much out of the Charles Kennedy mould politically. If Kendall wins the Labour vote, Farron's Lib Dems will absolutely be to her left economically as well as socially (where I'd argue the Libs have been left of Labour for 20 years). Will face some tough questions about his faith (and more specifically, abstaining from one gay marriage vote - not against, and not all of them, as will probably be written- Theyworkforyou (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11923/tim_farron/westmorland_and_lonsdale/votes) rates him as strongly in favour ) but he could revive them, particularly if Labour implode.

For the record, I voted Lamb, who I agree with more politically, but think Farron might well connect with the public better.

Now, anyone for Jeremy Corbyn? Supposedly leading the polls for Labour leader. I can't see it happening.

As a labour party member im still not sure who to vote for.  However I do tend to think that I'd like my party to lose because they have socialist ideals rather than win because they are tories.

Whichever way Id rather have an awful lot less of the PR men / women in politics.  Corbyn seems to be just an honest old lefty, not buffed up by the PR machine. 

Frankly someone has to oppose the current ghastly regime.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 16, 2015, 20:31:26
I voted for Farron on the basis that it's all about a rebuilding job now, and he seemed best able to get on with that.
I didn't get a vote as uselessly it took me so long to get round to joining it was too late.

But I think I would have voted Farron as he impresses me... plus whoever was running Lamb's twitter account had a habit of re tweeting literally hundreds of messages at a time which blocked up my twitter and I found really irritating! Small things and all that!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, July 17, 2015, 07:14:28
I joined the Labour party just to vote for Corbyn


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, July 17, 2015, 07:24:16
Seems a great number of Tories have done just the same.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Monday, July 20, 2015, 19:28:14
A bit rich a TORY priminister warning a people that may become CANON FODDER.
on the other hand tories are probably the best to notice cannon fodder when they see it?
Maybe they're upset that other's  are using their resources' without asking permission.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, July 21, 2015, 06:26:29
Seems a great number of Tories have done just the same.

Good. Perhaps if Labour had provided a proper left wing, anti-austerity coherent alternative they wouldn't have been completely wiped out in Scotland, and maybe retained some seats in the rest of the UK too.

If he doesn't win, I go back to wasting my vote voting Green.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 08:52:07
I joined the Labour party just to vote for Corbyn

According to YouGov poll, Corbyn on course to become leader....this is going to be fun. back to the 80's scenario, which caused the split in Labour, and the creation of the SDP, and then onto the LibDems.

It looks to me as if we're in for some major realignments over the coming couple of years....the EU referendum, is going to open a whole big can of worms.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 09:05:01
According to YouGov poll, Corbyn on course to become leader....this is going to be fun.

Look at the Scottish referendum and the GE for the relevance of polling data recently. Stick with the bookies who don't get it wrong these days on politcial matters.

Corbyn is into 5/2 now mind you but Burnham has only drifted a little bit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 09:06:28
I met him at the Tolpuddle Festival the other day and saw him speak.  He spent his formative years in Chippenham so I like him already.  He is an unassuming character but speaks very well and has ideas that are, and I know this may seem ridiculous but, different to the government line.  

Its almost like he believes in being an opposition not a branch of the party in power with a different tie.

Im very glad he's there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 09:07:19
According to YouGov poll, Corbyn on course to become leader....this is going to be fun. back to the 80's scenario, which caused the split in Labour, and the creation of the SDP, and then onto the LibDems.

It looks to me as if we're in for some major realignments over the coming couple of years....the EU referendum, is going to open a whole big can of worms.
the last election proved that such positions don't win elections.

The last election proved that a party with a left-leaning, anti-austerity agenda is the only thing that can stand up to the conservatives. If Labour had been true to their roots they would have kept the Scottish seats and had a good go in England too. No one voted for them because they are just Tory-lite and no real alternative.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 09:17:27
That stance did ok for the snp


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 09:21:31
The structure of the leadership campaign is fairly stupid in a way.  Taking so sodding long that the tories have no real opposition is madness.  Leaving that dickhead Harman in charge, well, jesus.  No way should they have been abstaining from that horrific bill.  

The party is in a state of stasis at the moment.  You cant do anything without a leader and an ideology.

Parliment is on recess for a while now so the tories cant do too much damage whilst they're off on there holidays, but we really need to get someone in and running.  The new leader will be announced on the 12th September.  Recess for the commons finishes on the 7th.

FWIW I believe the country doesnt have to punish the poor with the draconian austerity measures tories seem intent on.  Corbyns anti austerity and I look forward to seeing his plans in more detail.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 09:25:10
If Corbyn splits the Labour Party and the EU referendum splits the Tories then we have a very interesting political landscape...

As for Corbyn, I think it speaks for how poor the 'centrist' labour figures are that he's even in contention. Nobody else seems to want to argue against austerity as if it's the only possible path: as with anything in politics, there are many ways to skin a cat and if Labour think the only way to regain economic credibility is to become the Tories then why not just join the Conservatives?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 09:35:50
The structure of the leadership campaign is fairly stupid in a way.  Taking so sodding long that the tories have no real opposition is madness.  Leaving that dickhead Harman in charge, well, jesus.  No way should they have been abstaining from that horrific bill.  

The party is in a state of stasis at the moment.  You cant do anything without a leader and an ideology.

Parliment is on recess for a while now so the tories cant do too much damage whilst they're off on there holidays, but we really need to get someone in and running.  The new leader will be announced on the 12th September.  Recess for the commons finishes on the 7th.

FWIW I believe the country doesnt have to punish the poor with the draconian austerity measures tories seem intent on.  Corbyns anti austerity and I look forward to seeing his plans in more detail.

I think its good to have a longish leadership  contest, also good to have a range of candidates....as you rightly point out, with Parliament not sitting, it's not quite so imperative to have a leader.

TBF to Harman.....Labour's manifesto was also for cuts to the benefit budget, just in a longer timescale, I think she was correctly saying it woud be hypocritical to oppose in that case as the electorate had voted for the shorter timescale.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 09:36:19
Apologies Horlock - I have fucked your post up trying to quote it - clicked modify by mistake and deleted some of it.

I was going to reply with this:

The last election proved that a party with a left-leaning, anti-austerity agenda is the only thing that can stand up to the conservatives. If Labour had been true to their roots they would have kept the Scottish seats and had a good go in England too. No one voted for them because they are just Tory-lite and no real alternative.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 09:38:27
Apologies Horlock - I have fucked your post up trying to quote it - clicked modify by mistake and deleted some of it.

I was going to reply with this:

The last election proved that a party with a left-leaning, anti-austerity agenda is the only thing that can stand up to the conservatives. If Labour had been true to their roots they would have kept the Scottish seats and had a good go in England too. No one voted for them because they are just Tory-lite and no real alternative.

Ah that explains it, I was thinking when I read it back (I posted and then walked away from computer for a bit) it looked far more coherent that what I had typed..

I don't know - fucking censorship on the TEF - what next!  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 11:25:26
Apologies Horlock - I have fucked your post up trying to quote it - clicked modify by mistake and deleted some of it.

I was going to reply with this:

The last election proved that a party with a left-leaning, anti-austerity agenda is the only thing that can stand up to the conservatives. If Labour had been true to their roots they would have kept the Scottish seats and had a good go in England too. No one voted for them because they are just Tory-lite and no real alternative.

Not according to big Tone it isn't!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33619645


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 13:44:25
Yeah sorry about that!

Tony Blair is a proven liar and war criminal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 24, 2015, 10:24:03
 Interesting intervention from Obama, with regards to the EU referendum...Uncle Sam wants us staying in, which has got the Tory Europhobes eyes swivelling and frothing at the mouth.  Clearly Cameron has called in a favour.  Given that a Corbyn led Labour Party is going to split, like in the 80's with the SDP....I can see Labour calling for an out vote as in 75.

Then it was because the EU was seen as a banker's construct....intent on destroying worker's rights, but the subsequent Social Chapter, altered this by firming up worker's rights, one of the principle reasons the right wants out.

Greece has shown though, that perhaps the 1975 position was correct.....this is going to get very messy indeed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, July 24, 2015, 21:45:46
Interesting intervention from Obama, with regards to the EU referendum...Uncle Sam wants us staying in, which has got the Tory Europhobes eyes swivelling and frothing at the mouth.  Clearly Cameron has called in a favour.  Given that a Corbyn led Labour Party is going to split, like in the 80's with the SDP....I can see Labour calling for an out vote as in 75.

Then it was because the EU was seen as a banker's construct....intent on destroying worker's rights, but the subsequent Social Chapter, altered this by firming up worker's rights, one of the principle reasons the right wants out.

Greece has shown though, that perhaps the 1975 position was correct.....this is going to get very messy indeed.

Why does the following always seem to correlate;  Tory Government..........Very messy...
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Down on Monday, September 7, 2015, 06:15:58
Something in the Adver today says that twink from Bath wants to start making his football banners political. Not in my name in case you says something that agree doesn't with my politics. Let's NOT get political please (come on you Reds excepted  :-[ )
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/13649003.Town_fans_spearhead_campaign_in_support_of_refugees/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Monday, September 7, 2015, 06:24:16
Just one quick question for Jay.

He says if you don't support the banner thingy you don't have to get involved. But if said banner is held aloft at a football match how is anyone NOT involved. Everyone is involved by association whether you want to or not.

For that reason, I'm out - if it was possible to opt out, that is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Monday, September 7, 2015, 07:42:54
As I mentioned on Twitter, I'd much rather have Swindon fans hold up a humanitarian banner 'in my name' than get pissed and start fights with rival fans / police / general public. Or sing racist songs. Hey ho


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: lambourn red on Monday, September 7, 2015, 07:51:10
I always feel uneasy about this kind of thing , As Audrey says by virtue of being in the away end when this banner is held aloft you are assumed to be supportive of it. Ask yourself the question if someone held aloft a giant banner with "Vote Tory" or "Vote Labour" would you be happy about it if you are of the opposite political persuasion.
Now when it comes to the refugee crisis I am pretty neutral about the whole thing I can see the argument for helping some of these poor souls but on the other hand this crisis is not of our doing(unlike Iraq/Afghanistan) so I dont get why the mass media are on some sort of guilt trip.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Monday, September 7, 2015, 08:42:13
It's a fucking banner. A banner stating your supposed political affiliation or some other opinion wouldn't have any effect on your life.

I hate politics on any level, but I'm aware there are bigger things to worry about than whether an opposition fan, who I've never met (and likely never will) believes that I support a few inoffensive words written on a banner held aloft by some of my fellow supporters.

People just need a reason to moan.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sippo on Monday, September 7, 2015, 08:48:11
If I got a banner and said 'We don't want refugee's', I would probably get sent to prison...

I don't have an opinion on it either way, but it's the same principle.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, September 7, 2015, 08:54:39
If I got a banner and said 'We don't want refugee's', I would probably get sent to prison...

I don't have an opinion on it either way, but it's the same principle.

Fully deserved for the superfluous apostrophe..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Monday, September 7, 2015, 08:55:06
It's a fucking banner. A banner stating your supposed political affiliation or some other opinion wouldn't have any effect on your life.

I hate politics on any level, but I'm aware there are bigger things to worry about than whether an opposition fan, who I've never met (and likely never will) believes that I support a few inoffensive words written on a banner held aloft by some of my fellow supporters.

People just need a reason to moan.
So what if the banner said something you didn't want to be associated with.

Banners are fine if an individual is brandishing it outside where people can see who is holding it and can then choose to be associated with it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir Pissalot on Monday, September 7, 2015, 09:21:27
If I got a banner and said 'We don't want refugee's', I would probably get sent to prison...

I don't have an opinion on it either way, but it's the same principle.

No you wouldn't.  :doh:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir Pissalot on Monday, September 7, 2015, 09:23:36
Fully deserved for the superfluous apostrophe..

In which case you should go too for the superfluous full stop.   :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Monday, September 7, 2015, 14:15:28
The last election proved that a party with a left-leaning, anti-austerity agenda is the only thing that can stand up to the conservatives. If Labour had been true to their roots they would have kept the Scottish seats and had a good go in England too. No one voted for them because they are just Tory-lite and no real alternative.


It proved no such thing.  The notion that Middle England will support a far left-leaning Labour Party over the Tories simply because the Scots kicked out the Labour party is an absurd extrapolation. There is no proof either way but the historical evidence of the previous 7 general elections suggests completely the opposite.  Why should an electorate that rejected Foot, Kinnoch and Brown but supported Blair in their millions support Corbyn?  It is this kind of wishful thinking that will keep a Tory government in power for the foreseeable future to the detriment of the very people that the left claims to care about. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DRS on Monday, September 7, 2015, 14:29:17
It proved no such thing.  The notion that Middle England will support a far left-leaning Labour Party over the Tories simply because the Scots kicked out the Labour party is an absurd extrapolation. There is no proof either way but the historical evidence of the previous 7 general elections suggests completely the opposite.  Why should an electorate that rejected Foot, Kinnoch and Brown but supported Blair in their millions support Corbyn?  It is this kind of wishful thinking that will keep a Tory government in power for the foreseeable future to the detriment of the very people that the left claims to care about. 
I have highlighted my concerns regarding your post and feel you need to answer something.

What's that mean?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Monday, September 7, 2015, 14:59:22
I have highlighted my concerns regarding your post and feel you need to answer something.

What's that mean?

In mathematics, extrapolation is the process of estimating, beyond the original observation range, the value of a variable on the basis of its relationship with another variable.

**disclaimer**  This was a google search and not off of the top of my head..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DRS on Monday, September 7, 2015, 15:07:02
Cheers mate. Why didn't he just fucking say that then


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, September 7, 2015, 15:20:27
 A YouGov poll at the weekend, found a majority for the first time in favour of leaving the EU.

I can see Cameron trying to wriggle his way out of this rather than hold a referendum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Monday, September 7, 2015, 15:23:42
Hope not. We got to get the funk out of there!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Monday, September 7, 2015, 16:02:18
Cheers mate. Why didn't he just fucking say that then

Because he wanted to come across all intelligent, innit!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, September 8, 2015, 15:26:31
A YouGov poll at the weekend, found a majority for the first time in favour of leaving the EU.

I can see Cameron trying to wriggle his way out of this rather than hold a referendum.

Don't be silly...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, September 8, 2015, 16:51:17
Don't be silly...

Cameron made a political decision to hold a referendum; he didn't make the decision expecting to lose.

If the referendum was held this week he would lose, therefore it's not beyond the realms of possibility, there may be a delay or similar.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Tuesday, September 8, 2015, 17:09:31
Cameron made a political decision to hold a referendum; he didn't make the decision expecting to lose.

If the referendum was held this week he would lose, therefore it's not beyond the realms of possibility, there may be a delay or similar.
You state that as though it's fact. Why would he lose?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, September 8, 2015, 17:14:53
Cameron made a political decision to hold a referendum; he didn't make the decision expecting to lose.

If the referendum was held this week he would lose, therefore it's not beyond the realms of possibility, there may be a delay or similar.

Cameron has consistently promised a referendum by the end of 2017, he cannot simply renege on this as he is subject to Parliamentary scrutiny - yesterday's purdah's defeat neatly illustrates this. The Referendum Bill having passed the Commons is now off to the Lords. The timetable is now largely out of his hands.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Tuesday, September 8, 2015, 17:15:13
So what if the banner said something you didn't want to be associated with.

Banners are fine if an individual is brandishing it outside where people can see who is holding it and can then choose to be associated with it.

This has always happened at football matches, hasn't it? I dare say not everyone agreed with the first "McMahon Out" banners when they appeared.

Some people are racist. Should we remove the "Let's kick racism out of football" banners from stadiums as, you could argue, that is also a political opinion with a very small minority (of ignorant twats) supporting racist ideals and who don't agree with the message.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, September 8, 2015, 17:16:47
You state that as though it's fact. Why would he lose?

I know opinion polls aren't flavour of the month, but the trend is for an out vote.....whereas previously strongly an in vote.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Tuesday, September 8, 2015, 17:19:01
I know opinion polls aren't flavour of the month, but the trend is for an out vote.....whereas previously strongly an in vote.
I feel a Tef poll is coming......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, September 13, 2015, 21:42:44
So, Corbyn is in, and he's made John McDonnell Shadow Chancellor. I'd say that's about as far to the left as Labour could possibly have gone within their existing MPs. Could be an interesting few months...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Monday, September 14, 2015, 07:26:12
Looks like he's going for the "principled failure" option where he 'nobly' sticks to his ideals until he is forced out when enough of his current supporters eventually grasp that this is financial, social and of course electoral lunacy.  Then he can self-righteously claim that he has been forced out by the fascist press controlled by the business barons.  This was always the line favoured by Benn, his most obvious predecessor.

The alternative of genuinely trying to build a credible far left alternative to social democracy as the Labour opposition to the Tories, as favoured by the equally deluded but considerably more decent and honourable Michael Foot, looks like it's going to be rather too much of a dose of reality, never mind hard work.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Monday, September 14, 2015, 07:41:53
So, Corbyn is in, and he's made John McDonnell Shadow Chancellor. I'd say that's about as far to the left as Labour could possibly have gone within their existing MPs. Could be an interesting few months...

And already, the infighting has started. We're in for another lengthy period of Labour tearing out its own entrails while the nation and the government look on. Odd that Corbyn shouldn't at least try to bring the parliamentary party with him. Whatever his agenda might have been, it's unlikely to see the light of day without the support of his backbenchers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Monday, September 14, 2015, 07:55:42
I feel a banner coming on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 14, 2015, 08:47:08
To be fair to Corbyn he is learning how front line politics work, the 50% women shadow cabinet pledge appears to be quietly disappearing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, September 14, 2015, 09:13:27
One of his shadow cabinet is a Swindon lass. I went to school with her and we were in some of the same classes. Cool story, huh?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 14, 2015, 09:17:02
One of his shadow cabinet is a Swindon lass. I went to school with her and we were in some of the same classes. Cool story, huh?

Isn't it scary when you realise that you are the same age as politicians - its similar to when you realise that you are starting to think some of them are a bit tasty!


Title: Re:
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 16, 2015, 11:25:50
As Corbyn is crowd sourcing question's for PMQ's can someone please ask him to ask Cameron what his favourite cheese is?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Wednesday, September 16, 2015, 14:04:45
I thought the point of PMQs was for the leader of the opposition to ask and press the PM with awkward questions. Not for Joe Public to put forward inane questions for the PM to trot out the government line with no follow-up questions to contend with.

Bit like Lee and his phone-ins.

Beardy wont last 6 months


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, September 16, 2015, 14:54:27
Personally I thought it was a breath of fresh air from a bunch of out of touch tosspots saying 'see that smelly pile of poo, thats you that it'.

It was a bit gardeners question time but compared to the usual PMQ's everyone involved I thought looked human. That was until Cameron reverted to type and the next question after Corbyn had finished was a tory asking for a tiger.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, September 16, 2015, 16:08:12
Bit like Lee and his phone-ins.

How many of us do you think would need to email Jeremy before we could get him to ask about Miles Storey in PMQs? I'd vote Labour to see that, no problem.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, September 16, 2015, 19:33:09
Personally I thought it was a breath of fresh air from a bunch of out of touch tosspots saying 'see that smelly pile of poo, thats you that it'.

:nod:

These people are supposed to be running our country, not trying to out banter each other with childish whips.

I might not agree with some of Corbyn's left wing views, but he's certainly a welcome change.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Wednesday, September 16, 2015, 22:33:39
:nod

I might not agree with some of Corbyn's left wing views, but he's certainly a welcome change.

Completely agree, don't agree with his economics at all, but find his approach completely refreshing. Anyone who doesn't give sky news tosser journalists the time of day deserves some credit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: bigbobjoylove on Wednesday, September 23, 2015, 17:06:51
Saudi Arabia to crucify a teenager for attending a pro-democracy rally. Meanwhile, they're currently chairing the UN Human Rights Council.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 24, 2015, 14:45:41
Tory plan to sell off more of the Town's parks and leisure facilities to their chums....surely only a matter of time before Coate is finally finished off.

I have a certain admiration for Garry Perkins, people still vote for him despite the Wi-Fi thing and brilliant statements like this when talking about why Coate needs to be flogged off....

Quote
“If you take Coate Water for example, I live near there and regularly walk around. There are large parts which are not used."

I think he probably has the intelligence to realise those bits are an SSI, set aside for nature...not sure about the people that vote for him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 24, 2015, 15:15:29
Was there not a session of PMQ's this week - is it because we are in conference season?

I was hoping that the cheese question was going to be raised?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Thursday, September 24, 2015, 15:22:06
I was looking forward to Cameron being serenaded by a crescendo of oink oinks


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, September 24, 2015, 18:56:05
Political parties should be banned from local politics.  Instead you should just have decent people to vote for based on what they want to do locally, rather than some charade whereby they try and "play" at being MP's locally.  It doesn't help that it attracts some right odd sorts at a local level - I mean, why would you?  Anyone with a bit of intelligence is paid too much or too busy to get involved.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 25, 2015, 08:29:19
Is there any sort of plan to this?

The farming minister is credited statements which would basically put a large percentage of the farming industry out of business  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/meat-eaters-should-be-treated-like-smokers-says-the-vegan-shadow-environment-secretary-kerry-10515299.html?cmpid=facebook-post

As every little bit emerges I become more concerned that the Corbyn project is a personal vanity project that has little objective of getting elected. Over time this is in  danger of giving Cameron an easier ride than he had before!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, September 25, 2015, 08:41:45
vegan... PAH, they don't count.. they're only one step up from anti cruelty veggies that still eat fish ;)

 no way labour would push that as policy. sounds like a newspaper sensationalist story out of context to me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Friday, September 25, 2015, 08:49:32
I think part of it is Corbyn struggled to find any candidates willing to be too closely associated with his leadership so had to scrape quite a few barrels to come up with such a poor quality shadow cabinet.

He wont last long.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, September 25, 2015, 09:14:57
As every little bit emerges I become more concerned that the Corbyn project is a personal vanity project that has little objective of getting elected. Over time this is in  danger of giving Cameron an easier ride than he had before!

I'm hopeful this can work out ok.  Luckily Corbyn is showing all the classic extreme left distaste for actually putting his absurd agenda to the test.  Provoke a backlash that sees you replaced after a couple of years.  Much easier to go back to standing on the touchline demanding everything for everyone in the name of socialism than trying to deliver it and being exposed.  This isn't Greece.

Labour will still have time to stand up a credible leader to oppose George or Boris in 2020.  With no Lib Dem cover, the Tories will surely have opened people's eyes to the reality that an incompetent right wing government is not the answer.

The flaw in this little theory?  Finding the credible leader.  That's what I'm concerned about.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 25, 2015, 09:34:37
vegan... PAH, they don't count.. they're only one step up from anti cruelty veggies that still eat fish ;)

 no way labour would push that as policy. sounds like a newspaper sensationalist story out of context to me.

I don't think there is any chance of it being policy, but just seems to be entirely nonsensical to give someone the gig who holds these opinions (and has expressed them in writing), as someone said to me earlier it would be like making Andrew Wakefield shadow minister for health.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, September 25, 2015, 10:01:22
I'm hopeful this can work out ok.  Luckily Corbyn is showing all the classic extreme left distaste for actually putting his absurd agenda to the test.  Provoke a backlash that sees you replaced after a couple of years.  Much easier to go back to standing on the touchline demanding everything for everyone in the name of socialism than trying to deliver it and being exposed.  This isn't Greece.

Labour will still have time to stand up a credible leader to oppose George or Boris in 2020.  With no Lib Dem cover, the Tories will surely have opened people's eyes to the reality that an incompetent right wing government is not the answer.

The flaw in this little theory?  Finding the credible leader.  That's what I'm concerned about.

Tim Farron


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, September 25, 2015, 10:32:12
Tim Farron

perfect!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 25, 2015, 10:41:54
Tim Farron

Met Tim Farron once, very clever and inspirational guy!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, September 25, 2015, 14:34:28
I don't think there is any chance of it being policy, but just seems to be entirely nonsensical to give someone the gig who holds these opinions (and has expressed them in writing), as someone said to me earlier it would be like making Andrew Wakefield shadow minister for health.



Works in the US - check out Blackburn I think it is, she's on an energy committee and is firmly against the theory of climate change and has also publically rebuked the concept of evolution, along with equal pay for women.  Now, the climate change one could be a scientific argument, but she's against it on principle, not because of science!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 25, 2015, 14:46:52
Works in the US - check out Blackburn I think it is, she's on an energy committee and is firmly against the theory of climate change and has also publically rebuked the concept of evolution, along with equal pay for women.  Now, the climate change one could be a scientific argument, but she's against it on principle, not because of science!

It gets a little embarrassing when the Pope is a little more accommodating and less dogmatic than you are...

I cannot wait until Trump gets in and we get more of this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34342808


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, September 25, 2015, 18:10:29

As every little bit emerges I become more concerned that the Corbyn project is a personal vanity project that has little objective of getting elected.

Ha. You think JC has some kind of control? Seriously, there's the Scottish elections in the spring and the majority of the English local elections. There will be a new Labour leader before the EU referendum. If there isn't, Labour will have committed suicide. And for the record, 'I'll dance on their grave'.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, September 25, 2015, 18:34:57
Ha. You think JC has some kind of control? Seriously, there's the Scottish elections in the spring and the majority of the English local elections. There will be a new Labour leader before the EU referendum. If there isn't, Labour will have committed suicide. And for the record, 'I'll dance on their grave'.

I agree with Ironside.

Except for the last bit.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, September 25, 2015, 19:03:03
I agree with Ironside.

Except for the last bit.
I'll take that as an endorsement and based on your recommendation, urge you all to vote for me...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 21, 2015, 09:14:35
 See Justin Tomlinson is in the naughty corner....showing confidential documents on payday loan legislation to a Wonga employee.  I'm inclined to believe his excuse of stupidity rather than corruption...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Wednesday, October 21, 2015, 09:16:12
See Justin Tomlinson is in the naughty corner....showing confidential documents on payday loan legislation to a Wonga employee.  I'm inclined to believe his excuse of stupidity rather than corruption...

Justin did arrange for Wonga to sponsor Supermarine a few years back. Is this a coincidence?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 21, 2015, 09:29:31
Justin did arrange for Wonga to sponsor Supermarine a few years back. Is this a coincidence?

 :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 21, 2015, 09:58:58
:hmmm:

I assume that he kknows someone in the Wonga hierarchy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 21, 2015, 14:40:41
On a more national level, following the death of Michael Meacher, the forthcoming by election in Oldham will provide an interesting illustration of where things are going for Labour and Mr Corbyn?

I suspect the constituency is too staunchly Labour to see any great swing (and thus illustrate how the public feel about Corbyn), but the candidate selection process will answer a few questions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 21, 2015, 14:55:25
On a more national level, following the death of Michael Meacher, the forthcoming by election in Oldham will provide an interesting illustration of where things are going for Labour and Mr Corbyn?

I suspect the constituency is too staunchly Labour to see any great swing (and thus illustrate how the public feel about Corbyn), but the candidate selection process will answer a few questions.

Meacher was one of 4, who got re-elected in May, who'd originally been in the intake of 1970 and served continuously.  Others...Gerald Kaufman, Beast of Bolsover and Ken Clarke.

Meacher backed Corbyn at the initial selection, so I'm guessing the CLP, will pick a a proper Labour candidiate....and not if one of the others had won parachute in Ed Balls.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, October 26, 2015, 12:17:13
I assume that he kknows someone in the Wonga hierarchy?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tory-minister-caught-leaking-document-6685345

Coincidence is a wonderful thing....bit like Blatter and Platini.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, October 26, 2015, 12:32:19
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tory-minister-caught-leaking-document-6685345

Coincidence is a wonderful thing....bit like Blatter and Platini.

I would suspect that we should be more concerned that Mr Tomlinson insists on referencing himself in the third person?

'Mr Tomlinson said: “Jez made donations to Justin in a personal capacity. It is entirely incorrect to suggest other motivations.”'

So are Supermarine being used as some manner of front to channel money from Wonga to the Tories, I can imagine an absolute hammering from the FA if this is the case?

Wealthy person paying for access and favours from MP's is hardly new though is it, just been reading a book regarding Bernie Ecclestone and the section regarding Ecclestone, Labour and £1m followed rapidly by changes to polic regarding tobacco advertising  make grim reading, as is the manner that Ecclestone was hung out to dry by Blair and Jonathan Powell immediately it became public knowledge.

Its a dirty old world and I hate to break to you Reg, but they are all at it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Monday, October 26, 2015, 13:20:34
I didn't know Meacher had died. What'll happen to all his houses?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Down on Tuesday, November 10, 2015, 23:43:46
'Save (Y)Our Steel' banner v. Scunny this Saturday?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jamiesfuturewife on Friday, November 20, 2015, 18:50:52
I went on a PE conference today and Justin Tomlinson was a key note speaker, rather randomly because he "wants" to be the minister for sport?!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Friday, November 20, 2015, 19:09:43
Cannot really see the Minister for Wonga being a sports minister!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 14:05:03
Autumn Statement today. Headlines seem to be complete u-turn on tax credits, no cuts in funding for the police and a huge rise in the defence budget. Main losers seem to be student nurses (odd choice considering the difficulty they're having with junior doctors) and buy to let landlords (fucking finally)

Oh, and John McDonnell is the best argument for voting Conservative I've yet seen. He's literally quoting Mao.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 14:19:42
I particularly enjoyed the bit of his speech where he told us Labour would cull the debt quicker but spend more on public services! Oh the laughs.

Almost makes you pine for Milliband/Balls as opposed to the current shambles


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 15:00:03
Unless you are wealthy I can't see any reason to vote conservative. Even then it would be for selfish reasons and not the good of the nation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 15:10:22
 2 concerns....plan to cover the country in housing....house building multi-national's share prices have shot up.  

Statement that Councils have £250 bill of assets to get shot of....in return they can use money to make up cuts. Conclusion....SBC will be looking to get rid of assets like the CG, for housing or a football ground if someone can find the market price, becasue of the Asset of Community Value thing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 16:05:24
SBC are strange in being a council which really doesn't care for selling assets. The egos of those in power would rather hang on to them than sell them off for someone else to develop a site and not getting any credit for themselves.

The Mechanics is a good case. When BR was nationalised the government forced them to sell off any assets they had if it wasn't directly concerned with the transport side. The Council could have bought the Mechanics for £1 but ummed and ahed and a private buyer bought it for £50,000. Two sales later and the owner, Matthew Singh, did a runner after welching on an agreement to renovate.

The site passed to the Crowns Estate with the council having a charge on the building but don't really want the cost of insuring it or its upkeep.

Yet they won't sell to the Mechanics Trust because their plans for renovating look good and would be popular and the Council don't want someone else getting the credit.

Hence the impasse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 16:25:57
 Just as a point of information....British Rail Properties Board, was "sold" in the first wave of Thatcherite gifts to her supporters, in the early mid 80's. The Mechanics went then, like STFC's "A"Ground along Shrivenham Road where the club was evicted from its historic training ground.

The transport giveaway, was a scorched earth policy of the retreating Major government in the mid 90's.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 16:27:28
Reg, as a guess what do you reckon they would sell the CG for?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 16:30:05
Reg, as a guess what do you reckon they would sell the CG for?

The whole complex, probably between 70-80 mill.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 16:33:03
Fuck me. I thought about £10m.

Other than the ground itself what else comprises the site?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 16:37:44
Fuck me. I thought about £10m.

Other than the ground itself what else comprises the site?

Cricket Ground.....Extension.....Athletics track.....Bowling green....old kiddy's park....green bit in Shrivenham Road....car park


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 16:38:57
Ah, didn't realise it encompassed all that. Thought it was just the CG plus car park.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 16:44:47
Isn't there a specific restriction on it having to be used for leisure purposes though? If it can't be used for housing, that would significantly restrict the value.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 16:53:41
Isn't there a specific restriction on it having to be used for leisure purposes though? If it can't be used for housing, that would significantly restrict the value.

Convenants can be bought out...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: FreddySTFC! on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 16:58:32
Convenants can be bought out...
Covenant, it's covenant!!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 16:59:07
Convenants can be bought out...

But then where will the nuns live?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 17:18:10
Covenant, it's covenant!!!

The perils of multi-tasking.....cooking pressed cod roe fish cakes, at the same time as posting requires more concentration than I thought.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: blah blah on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 10:22:54
The cricket pavilion is a listed building, so even if the covenant is bought out and its sold for housing, the pavilion has to remain in situ. Would look a bit odd in the middle of a housing estate !


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 10:27:38
SBC are fucking clowns at the best of times but I would be extremely surprised if they ever sold the County Ground. The uproar would be huge.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 10:44:06
SBC are fucking clowns at the best of times but I would be extremely surprised if they ever sold the County Ground. The uproar would be huge.

You do realise that funding to local councils has been cut by 50%....and that they're pretty much left with dealing with the statutory crap that can't be flogged off?

Over half of council tax monies go on care of people with special needs, the elderly, children, asylum seekers, the homless....they're not going away, in fact it's a growing number.

Osborne is permitting a small increase in Council Tax, to address this, but some assets will have to be sold.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 11:01:28
That doesn't change my view at all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 11:10:39
That doesn't change my view at all.

It is of course possible that SBC could sell the CG and it stay as a football ground....the Trust have got first dibs. That way eveyone's a winner.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 11:24:05
 While this thread is at the top, Cameron today is outlining his case for bombing ISIS, 2 years ago, he wanted to bomb Assad to aid ISIS, now the other way around.

 I'm with Corbyn on this, let's keep out.   What say you TEFers?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 11:26:01
The cricket pavilion is a listed building, so even if the covenant is bought out and its sold for housing, the pavilion has to remain in situ.
No it doesn't. It can be moved and reconstructed elsewhere. It's another obstacle/expense but like the covenant it's not a blocker, simply a question of there being enough profit in any deal to make it worth a developer's while.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sippo on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 11:33:49
While this thread is at the top, Cameron today is outlining his case for bombing ISIS, 2 years ago, he wanted to bomb Assad to aid ISIS, now the other way around.

 I'm with Corbyn on this, let's keep out.   What say you TEFers?

Before the paris massacre, I would have said 'go for it'. Now not so sure. With the possibility of revenge is it worth it?

On the other hand, how do we rectify the awful situation?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 11:36:22
Before the paris massacre, I would have said 'go for it'. Now not so sure. With the possibility of revenge is it worth it?
Makes no odds. We are well on ISIS's radar whether or not we bomb Syria. Whatever we do though, this time, unlike Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, we need a proper plan for what we do AFTER the bombing/invasion/total obliteration of the entire region. I have no great hope that we will do that and so once ISIS are destroyed they'll just be replaced by something worse and the cycle will go on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 11:36:39
While this thread is at the top, Cameron today is outlining his case for bombing ISIS, 2 years ago, he wanted to bomb Assad to aid ISIS, now the other way around.

 I'm with Corbyn on this, let's keep out.   What say you TEFers?

Think Corbyn's position is a bit more nuanced than that on this one.

I have absolutely no moral objection to bombing the everloving crap out of ISIS. However, that in itself does not solve the issue: Cameron's claiming that there are 70,000 "moderate Syrian" fighters to step in as ground forces - that sounds a lot like wishful thinking. Ultimately, Assad is a terrible human being, but might be the only way of keeping the country from falling apart utterly. The Kurds genuinely deserve our support, but supporting them means upsetting Turkey.

The geopolitics here are extremely complicated, well beyond who we should and shouldn't bomb. No easy answers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 11:44:17
Before the paris massacre, I would have said 'go for it'. Now not so sure. With the possibility of revenge is it worth it?

On the other hand, how do we rectify the awful situation?

No idea, but I'm pretty sure that dropping a few bombs in Syria, isn't going to help.

Cameron seems to think it's not cricket to leave it to the French and US....however we managed this in Vietnam, and those campaigns didn't get either of our allies very far.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 11:44:38
What Paul said really.

We can't roll over though and let them tickle our tummies so a bit of strategic carpet bombing to destroy some of the nasty cunts and their assets needs to be done.

They are probably going to do more shit to "us" regardless


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:11:04
The Kurds genuinely deserve our support, but supporting them means upsetting Turkey.
All the more reason to support the Kurds. The Turks and the Saudis are a big part of the problem in that region, and in the case of the Saudis the broader spread of militant sectarian Sunni terrorism (which is what ISIS is), but Western politicians daren't say so because they're our "allies". And of course we daren't bomb the Saudis because they're really well armed. We know that because we sold them the fucking things.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:11:26
What Paul said really.

We can't roll over though and let them tickle our tummies so a bit of strategic carpet bombing to destroy some of the nasty cunts and their assets needs to be done.

They are probably going to do more shit to "us" regardless

The US have already dropped tons of ordnance on Syria to little discernible effect....the revelation of a network of tunnels in Sinjar, probably tells us that ISIS have taken a leaf out of the Viet-Cong book on how to defeat the US.

Cameron is making a political decision rather than a strategic decision, there will be serious opposition to this from the people of Britain, let your MP know if you object.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:12:24
Cricket Ground.....Extension.....Athletics track.....Bowling green....old kiddy's park....green bit in Shrivenham Road....car park

It would be a planning nightmare with Sport England if nothing else to get any sort of permission on most of that, plus as the Council are land owners and would benefit from any permission granted it would need to go to the Secretary of State to grant permission.

Any developer with any sense would want such a conditional contract and the time take taken to achieve consent be so long that the land is essentially worthless to the Council.

If the Council want to raise some reddies now would however be a good time to the Trust to go to see the Council and discuss how much they may wish to achieve to get the liability off their hands?

If the rent is say £250k/annum  even with a c.8% yield its only worth just over £3m.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jimmy_onions on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:13:26
isn't strategic carpet bombing a bit of an oxymoron?
(or was that a joke?)
I saw a video yesterday about the collateral damage in syria, e.g lots of tiny children with horrific injuries caused by bombing. Not for the faint hearted.
I think that was more a result of assads or russian bombs, but either way. Does tend to focus the mind
What does 'bomb isis targets' actually mean? Its not as if they are all gathered at a huge hq.
I vote stay out this time.
My feeling is bombing is exactly the response they are after...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:20:01
My feeling is bombing is exactly the response they are after...
No, what they want is a full-scale Western invasion. They genuinely believe that they are the agents of the apocalypse, the Biblical "end times" and they see a final confrontation with the West in Syria as the prerequisite to the end of the world. However, their batshit beliefs shouldn't necessarily preclude us from doing that if we genuinely think it is the right thing to do AND we actually have a proper "after the fighting" plan this time.

They also very much want precisely the reaction they've had from some here and on social media, of a broad backlash against Islam in general as they see that (rightly) as helping their cause as it helps create an "us and them" atmosphere that they've profited from so well in the Sunni vs Shia civil war in Iraq (and the West's abject failure to understand, much less manage that).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:20:55
isn't strategic carpet bombing a bit of an oxymoron?
(or was that a joke?)
I saw a video yesterday about the collateral damage in syria, e.g lots of tiny children with horrific injuries caused by bombing. Not for the faint hearted.
I think that was more a result of assads or russian bombs, but either way. Does tend to focus the mind
What does 'bomb isis targets' actually mean? Its not as if they are all gathered at a huge hq.
I vote stay out this time.
My feeling is bombing is exactly the response they are after...

This. More bombing only answers the public urge for revenge which in turn creates victims whose families seek... revenge, and so it goes on. We've been doing this since the 1960s and when has it ever worked? What's that definition of madness? Doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jimmy_onions on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:23:45
No, what they want is a full-scale Western invasion. They genuinely believe that they are the agents of the apocalypse, the Biblical "end times" and they see a final confrontation with the West in Syria as the prerequisite to the end of the world. However, their batshit beliefs shouldn't necessarily preclude us from doing that if we genuinely think it is the right thing to do AND we actually have a proper "after the fighting" plan this time.

They also very much want precisely the reaction they've had from some here and on social media, of a broad backlash against Islam in general as they see that (rightly) as helping their cause as it helps create an "us and them" atmosphere that they've profited from so well in the Sunni vs Shia civil war in Iraq (and the West's abject failure to understand, much less manage that).

Don't disagree, in more general terms an 'armed response' is part of what they are after, full scale invasion would be playing into their hands entirely, bombing is nicely stoking the flames a little


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:27:26
Don't disagree, in more general terms an 'armed response' is part of what they are after, full scale invasion would be playing into their hands entirely, bombing is nicely stoking the flames a little

Which is why it's important for any force to be a UN-sponsored broad coalition, including regional forces, rather than another US-led crusade.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:29:01
While this thread is at the top, Cameron today is outlining his case for bombing ISIS, 2 years ago, he wanted to bomb Assad to aid ISIS, now the other way around.

 I'm with Corbyn on this, let's keep out.   What say you TEFers?

I get the impression that Cameron is shitting himself to get this right after the activities of Blair, and the suggestions that he has rapidly gone from poster boy of new labour to war criminal - politicians are very aware of their 'legacy' Corbyn apparently more than most whatevere he may claim.

Tim Farron has written a letter to Cameron detailing what he needs to do in order to gain Lib Dem MP's and peer support...

In advance of your statement outlining your plan for military intervention against ISIL in Syria, we are writing to outline the criteria against which we will judge our response to your proposals.

As you will know our party has maintained a consistent position that airstrikes alone will not defeat ISIL in Syria. Deployment of lethal force should never be used simply as a gesture. It has to have effect, and to have effect it has to be part of a wider strategy, especially on the diplomatic front.

We are encouraged by the fact that the Government has at last decided to explain the details of that strategy and look forward to hearing what this is.

The five conditions below give the UK the best chance at having an effective strategy to counter ISIL and make serious progress in ending the Syrian civil war. We call on you to embed them into your plans before they are brought to the House of Commons on Thursday.

These conditions are:

1.   Legal

Military intervention must follow an international legal framework. We believe this has been provided by UN Resolution 2249 which urges members to take “all reasonable measures” to defeat ISIL.

This is the instrument with which all those opposed to ISIL have the means to coordinate military action to defeat them, including regional actors on the ground.

2.       Wider diplomatic framework including efforts towards a no-bomb zone to protect civilians

Any military action by the UK must be part of a wider international effort involving all who have an interest in defeating ISIL, as a prelude to ending the conflict in Syria, including Russia, Iran and Turkey.

The UK Government should use all efforts to ensure that the Vienna talks succeed in bringing together the broadest possible support for action to end the war in Syria and effect political transition.

In addition, we call on the government to explicitly work towards ending the Syrian regime’s bombing of civilianswith a no-bomb zone to maximise civilian protection and allow for an upscaling of humanitarian access.

3.       UK led pressure on Gulf States for increased support in the region

The UK should lead a concerted international effort to put pressure on the Gulf States, specifically Saudi Arabia and the Emiratis, to stop the funding of jihadi groups within the region and worldwide and do much more to assist in the effort to defeat ISIL, establish peace in Syria and help with the refugee situation. They are currently doing very little, despite claiming to be part of the anti-ISIL coalition.

ISIL is not just a Western problem, and this is one way of preventing them from framing the situation in that way.

4.       Post-ISIL plan

The government must be absolutely clear on what Syria and Iraq will look like post-ISIL, and what post-conflict strategy (including an exit strategy) they propose to give the best chance of avoiding a power vacuum. This must be linked to the above diplomatic framework which will outline steps for ending the wider conflict in Syria.

5.       Domestic

We acknowledge that the fight against ISIL is not just in the Middle East: it is within Europe and it is here in the UK. We call on the government to immediately publish its 2014 investigation into the Muslim Brotherhood and also call on them to conduct an investigation into foreign funding and support of extremist and terrorist groups in the UK.

We call on the government to step up its acceptance of Syrian refugees, and opt in to Save the Children’s proposal to rehome 3000 unaccompanied refugee children from with Europe.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:31:28
Don't disagree, in more general terms an 'armed response' is part of what they are after, full scale invasion would be playing into their hands entirely, bombing is nicely stoking the flames a little
A full-scale invasion is the only thing that is going to get rid of them. Or at least troops on the ground anyway and so far the "strategy" of operating through limited proxies (a Kurdish force attacked by the Turks and hamstrung by our unwillingness to upset our "allies", the laughably inept and corrupt Iraqi army, Assad's murderers and various rag-bag equally murderous Shia militias) coupled with bombing has achieved jack-shit. If we want to get rid of ISIS by military means then we need to decide that we're prepared to do that and stay and sort out the mess after. And yes that means we need to be prepared for the body bags/pictures of POWs being brutally tortured and executed to come in too. But if we were prepared to take the casualties for some oil, neo-con hard-ons and Blair's mad ego for Iraq, this is a far more worthy cause. Plus we helped cause it so we kind of have an obligation to help sort out the mess we helped create.

Otherwise, we should sit at home and wait for them to go stronger and stronger until we can't dislodge them. Pretty much as we have done for the past four years, in fact. "Nicely stoking the flames a little" might sound nice but as Reg says, it's really just headline grabbing and political face-saving.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:33:08
Just nuke the fuckers and get it over with

Whimsy!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:33:27
I get the impression that Cameron is shitting himself to get this right after the activities of Blair, and the suggestions that he has rapidly gone from poster boy of new labour to war criminal - politicians are very aware of their 'legacy' Corbyn apparently more than most whatevere he may claim.

Tim Farron has written a letter to Cameron detailing what he needs to do in order to gain Lib Dem MP's and peer support...

In advance of your statement outlining your plan for military intervention against ISIL in Syria, we are writing to outline the criteria against which we will judge our response to your proposals.

As you will know our party has maintained a consistent position that airstrikes alone will not defeat ISIL in Syria. Deployment of lethal force should never be used simply as a gesture. It has to have effect, and to have effect it has to be part of a wider strategy, especially on the diplomatic front.

We are encouraged by the fact that the Government has at last decided to explain the details of that strategy and look forward to hearing what this is.

The five conditions below give the UK the best chance at having an effective strategy to counter ISIL and make serious progress in ending the Syrian civil war. We call on you to embed them into your plans before they are brought to the House of Commons on Thursday.

These conditions are:

1.   Legal

Military intervention must follow an international legal framework. We believe this has been provided by UN Resolution 2249 which urges members to take “all reasonable measures” to defeat ISIL.

This is the instrument with which all those opposed to ISIL have the means to coordinate military action to defeat them, including regional actors on the ground.

2.       Wider diplomatic framework including efforts towards a no-bomb zone to protect civilians

Any military action by the UK must be part of a wider international effort involving all who have an interest in defeating ISIL, as a prelude to ending the conflict in Syria, including Russia, Iran and Turkey.

The UK Government should use all efforts to ensure that the Vienna talks succeed in bringing together the broadest possible support for action to end the war in Syria and effect political transition.

In addition, we call on the government to explicitly work towards ending the Syrian regime’s bombing of civilianswith a no-bomb zone to maximise civilian protection and allow for an upscaling of humanitarian access.

3.       UK led pressure on Gulf States for increased support in the region

The UK should lead a concerted international effort to put pressure on the Gulf States, specifically Saudi Arabia and the Emiratis, to stop the funding of jihadi groups within the region and worldwide and do much more to assist in the effort to defeat ISIL, establish peace in Syria and help with the refugee situation. They are currently doing very little, despite claiming to be part of the anti-ISIL coalition.

ISIL is not just a Western problem, and this is one way of preventing them from framing the situation in that way.

4.       Post-ISIL plan

The government must be absolutely clear on what Syria and Iraq will look like post-ISIL, and what post-conflict strategy (including an exit strategy) they propose to give the best chance of avoiding a power vacuum. This must be linked to the above diplomatic framework which will outline steps for ending the wider conflict in Syria.

5.       Domestic

We acknowledge that the fight against ISIL is not just in the Middle East: it is within Europe and it is here in the UK. We call on the government to immediately publish its 2014 investigation into the Muslim Brotherhood and also call on them to conduct an investigation into foreign funding and support of extremist and terrorist groups in the UK.

We call on the government to step up its acceptance of Syrian refugees, and opt in to Save the Children’s proposal to rehome 3000 unaccompanied refugee children from with Europe.

That's really rather good, actually. And covers much of the "Shh, let's not talk about that" stuff that so far hasn't entered the rather puerile "discussion" of ISIS in the mainstream media.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:36:36
http://newsthump.com/2015/03/09/boko-haram-offers-to-join-islamic-state-in-return-for-their-bank-details/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:37:32
That's really rather good, actually. And covers much of the "Shh, let's not talk about that" stuff that so far hasn't entered the rather puerile "discussion" of ISIS in the mainstream media.

Just a shme the LibDems have as many MP's as the DUP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:40:03
Just a shme the LibDems have as many MP's as the DUP.

But they have quite a presence in the Lords, just a pity they seem to be having to act as her majesty's opposition whilst the Labour Leadership and PLP wave their bits around rather than trying to act for the good of the country....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:45:51
But they have quite a presence in the Lords, just a pity they seem to be having to act as her majesty's opposition whilst the Labour Leadership and PLP wave their bits around rather than trying to act for the good of the country....

Yes strange isn't it....how stacks of them can get into the unelected Lords, but are rejected by ordinary voters.

It's fair to say that many in the PLP, are out of step with the leadership and membership, and are trying to save their own skin, and are therefore not to be trusted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:05:44
Yes strange isn't it....how stacks of them can get into the unelected Lords, but are rejected by ordinary voters.

It's fair to say that many in the PLP, are out of step with the leadership and membership, and are trying to save their own skin, and are therefore not to be trusted.

Much like Labour then... rejected by ordinary voters.

Yeah but without them most of the welfare stuff being promoted by the Tories would be sailing through, interesting that more Labour peers voted against the Lib Dem fatal motion promoted by the Lib Dems than abstained.

Its all very well Corbyn having his vanity project and the PLP resisting it but its the rest of the country that is suffering in the absense of an opposition whilst they have their cock waving competition.

Thankfully Osbourne is so keen to ensure that he retains his centre right position, drifting into the position vacated by New Labour, that he took the opportunity to soften things a little. At the present time the Tories seem to essentially have carte blanche to do what they like whilst Labour just bicker!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:13:04
But they have quite a presence in the Lords, just a pity they seem to be having to act as her majesty's opposition whilst the Labour Leadership and PLP wave their bits around rather than trying to act for the good of the country....

Yes strange isn't it....how stacks of them can get into the unelected Lords, but are rejected by ordinary voters.

Sorry for banging the PR drum yet again, but the Lib Dems - along with UKIP - are massively under-represented in the Commons as a result of the indefensible First Past the Post electoral system.  Similarly, the SNP is massively over-represented.

First Past the Post distorts everything, including political debate and the perception of values held by the voting public.  The Lib Dems won 7.9% of the vote in May which, on a proportional basis, would give them 51 parliamentary seats - and not the 8 they actually took up.  Because they won only 8, they're treated as also-rans.  They shouldn't be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:15:13
Sorry for banging the PR drum yet again, but the Lib Dems - along with UKIP - are massively under-represented in the Commons as a result of the indefensible First Past the Post electoral system.  Similarly, the SNP is massively over-represented.

First Past the Post distorts everything, including political debate and the perception of values held by the voting public.  The Lib Dems won 7.9% of the vote in May which, on a proportional basis, would give them 51 parliamentary seats - and not the 8 they actually took up.  Because they won only 8, they're treated as also-rans.  They shouldn't be.

I'm keen on electoral reform myself, but pure PR applied to the results of the last election (which is dodgy as people may have voted differently etc.) would have given a Tory/UKIP coalition. Which is terrifying.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:23:09
Check out what Dennis Skinner said today(currently trending on Twitter) I am with him and Reg. Out !


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:38:40
I'm keen on electoral reform myself, but pure PR applied to the results of the last election (which is dodgy as people may have voted differently etc.) would have given a Tory/UKIP coalition. Which is terrifying.

Maybe so.  But it's what people voted for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:39:33
Maybe so.  But it's what people voted for.

People like Coldplay and voted for Hitler Mark, you can't trust people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:49:22
I'm keen on electoral reform myself, but pure PR applied to the results of the last election (which is dodgy as people may have voted differently etc.) would have given a Tory/UKIP coalition. Which is terrifying.

If the voting system was changed, many people would vote differently, I suspect.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 15:08:53
If the voting system was changed, many people would vote differently, I suspect.

You mean, if they thought their vote might actually count for something?

Not like the UK electorate to be generally scared of making any change to the status quo though, is it.

Nation of shopkeepers, was it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 15:13:23
Nation of shopkeepers, was it?

Indeed but good enough to to destroy the Bonapartist fantasy of French European/global hegemony.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 15:16:03
This man could possibly become US president... and we think we have problems....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34930042


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 16:24:41
Indeed but good enough to to destroy the Bonapartist fantasy of French European/global hegemony.

I knew who would bite at that.  :bye:

Bonaparte's success, particularly in setting up institutions and administrations that remain to this day, has always been underplayed in the UK, not unnaturally. And his legacy of French influence in Europe is rather greater than plucky little England's.

Does your suspicion of our Gallic cousins stem from a deep-rooted sense of inferiority, I wonder Reginald?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 16:28:25
I knew who would bite at that.  :bye:

Bonaparte's success, particularly in setting up institutions and administrations that remain to this day, has always been underplayed in the UK, not unnaturally. And his legacy of French influence in Europe is rather greater than plucky little England's.

Does your suspicion of our Gallic cousins stem from a deep-rooted sense of inferiority, I wonder Reginald?

Leave Reg alone, he hates Thatcher more than Bonaparte.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 16:36:16
French red tape is horrific, but Bonaparte's division of the country in to clearly defined Regions and, below that, the 100 Departments which people properly identify with is something to be proud of.  Vastly superior to the disorderly mish-mash of counties (some historic, which do not even exist in the political sense any more) & unitary authorities that we put up with.

A Frenchman knows where he's from.  But is Swindon in Wiltshire any more?  Is Kingston in London or is it in Surrey?  Is Scunthorpe a part of Humberside, Lincolnshire or N Lincolnshire?  All open to debate.  It's a mess.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 17:00:26
French red tape is horrific, but Bonaparte's division of the country in to clearly defined Regions and, below that, the 100 Departments which people properly identify with is something to be proud of.  Vastly superior to the disorderly mish-mash of counties (some historic, which do not even exist in the political sense any more) & unitary authorities that we put up with.

A Frenchman knows where he's from.  But is Swindon in Wiltshire any more?  Is Kingston in London or is it in Surrey?  Is Scunthorpe a part of Humberside, Lincolnshire or N Lincolnshire?  All open to debate.  It's a mess.

You say that but when my old man moved to France, it was considerably less bureaucratic than the hassle he had moving back 10 years later, its taken them nearly a year to get many of the things sorted now they are back in the UK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 17:47:50
Does your suspicion of our Gallic cousins stem from a deep-rooted sense of inferiority, I wonder Reginald?

I think suspicion of people who came up with a calendar, with these months is justified....

1 Vendémiaire   7 Germinal
2 Brumaire   8 Floréal
3 Frimaire   9 Prairial
4 Nivôse   10 Messidor
5 Pluviôse   11 Thermidor
6 Ventôse   12 Fructidor

The months then divided into 3 sets of 10 days, with only 3 days of rest.....add in the attempt to decimalise time. Thank fuck for the Greenwich Meridian.

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/04/article-2044937-0E31C7E100000578-978_468x532.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 18:20:00
This man could possibly become US president... and we think we have problems....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34930042


There is absolutely no danger of Trump being elected.

More worryingly, there's a strong chance that Clinton will be elected.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 18:26:36
As long as it's the Democratic candidate, that's all that really matters


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 18:35:02
I think suspicion of people who came up with a calendar, with these months is justified....

1 Vendémiaire   7 Germinal
2 Brumaire   8 Floréal
3 Frimaire   9 Prairial
4 Nivôse   10 Messidor
5 Pluviôse   11 Thermidor
6 Ventôse   12 Fructidor

The months then divided into 3 sets of 10 days, with only 3 days of rest.....add in the attempt to decimalise time. Thank fuck for the Greenwich Meridian.

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/04/article-2044937-0E31C7E100000578-978_468x532.jpg)

Well despite its pretty imagery, France dumped that before long, in the interest of international alignment (England take note). Generations of Brits should be eternally grateful to Europe for decimalisation though. 16oz to a lb (which obviously stands for pound) but 14lbs to 1 st; 8pts to 1gal; 12d to 1s; 1760 snappy yds to 1 mile. All very quaint, but makes for nightmarish calculations.

And Ardiles, if France used to be horribly bureaucratic, these days most admin things run much more smoothly than their equivalents in the UK, in my experience. Except I do wish they'd institute an Oyster card system on the Paris metro.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 18:52:32
As long as it's the Democratic candidate, that's all that really matters

Sanders preferably.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, November 27, 2015, 17:47:21
A full-scale invasion is the only thing that is going to get rid of them. Or at least troops on the ground anyway and so far the "strategy" of operating through limited proxies (a Kurdish force attacked by the Turks and hamstrung by our unwillingness to upset our "allies", the laughably inept and corrupt Iraqi army, Assad's murderers and various rag-bag equally murderous Shia militias) coupled with bombing has achieved jack-shit. If we want to get rid of ISIS by military means then we need to decide that we're prepared to do that and stay and sort out the mess after. And yes that means we need to be prepared for the body bags/pictures of POWs being brutally tortured and executed to come in too. But if we were prepared to take the casualties for some oil, neo-con hard-ons and Blair's mad ego for Iraq, this is a far more worthy cause. Plus we helped cause it so we kind of have an obligation to help sort out the mess we helped create.

Otherwise, we should sit at home and wait for them to go stronger and stronger until we can't dislodge them. Pretty much as we have done for the past four years, in fact. "Nicely stoking the flames a little" might sound nice but as Reg says, it's really just headline grabbing and political face-saving.
I agree with every word of this post.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, November 27, 2015, 17:49:08
But they have quite a presence in the Lords, just a pity they seem to be having to act as her majesty's opposition whilst the Labour Leadership and PLP wave their bits around rather than trying to act for the good of the country....
The commons do not need the Lord's on their side to act on Foreign affairs.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, November 27, 2015, 17:52:58
I'm keen on electoral reform myself, but pure PR applied to the results of the last election (which is dodgy as people may have voted differently etc.) would have given a Tory/UKIP coalition. Which is terrifying.
Or as sane people describe it, perfect.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, November 27, 2015, 17:55:40
People like Coldplay and voted for Hitler Mark, you can't trust people.
You're absolutely correct. Here's a darkened room, a revolver with a single round in it and a bottle of Whisky.

You know it's the right thing to do but do let us know if you need anything else to assist you...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, November 27, 2015, 17:57:11
I knew who would bite at that.  :bye:

Bonaparte's success, particularly in setting up institutions and administrations that remain to this day, has always been underplayed in the UK, not unnaturally. And his legacy of French influence in Europe is rather greater than plucky little England's.

Does your suspicion of our Gallic cousins stem from a deep-rooted sense of inferiority, I wonder Reginald?
I think we have an example of Stockholm syndrome right here.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, November 27, 2015, 17:58:09
French red tape is horrific, but Bonaparte's division of the country in to clearly defined Regions and, below that, the 100 Departments which people properly identify with is something to be proud of.  Vastly superior to the disorderly mish-mash of counties (some historic, which do not even exist in the political sense any more) & unitary authorities that we put up with.

A Frenchman knows where he's from.  But is Swindon in Wiltshire any more?  Is Kingston in London or is it in Surrey?  Is Scunthorpe a part of Humberside, Lincolnshire or N Lincolnshire?  All open to debate.  It's a mess.
That's down to education.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, November 27, 2015, 19:33:16
You shouldn't need a degree to understand things like that.  That's the point.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, November 27, 2015, 23:32:58
You shouldn't need a degree to understand things like that.  That's the point.
Indeed...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Friday, November 27, 2015, 23:56:50
I like Ironsides

He gets a lot of hate on here, but he says what he thinks.

To be honest, some of it offends some people, but some people are offended by facts



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 01:00:42
I like Ironsides

He gets a lot of hate on here, but he says what he thinks.

To be honest, some of it offends some people, but some people are offended by facts

You may not know but Ironside was granted a special evening by the mods on the TEF, whereby he could clearly put forward his points of view to questioning by members.

This was a rare honour, almost granted previously to Mark Devlin, and granted to Steve Murrall, by the Jedi among the mods.

Not suggestive of hatred...more a consideration of opinions. As C.P. Scott said "comment is free but facts are sacred"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 09:19:17
I like Ironsides

He gets a lot of hate on here, but he says what he thinks.

To be honest, some of it offends some people, but some people are offended by facts



That's because, as your name tag suggests, you are also a massive cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 09:52:02
 :suicide:
That's because, as your name tag suggests, you are also a massive cunt.
On that basis you should have the moniker Levi Lapper Not Very Nice If I'm Honest then. As i see it there is a very left wing union style bias on this site and anyone offering a centre, right or even far right view is rounded upon and derided like a defenceless wounded animal. Interesting how those with centre, centre right or right views do not threaten or abuse like the left do in public. When was the last time a mass of Conservative voters tried to smash up or threaten anything in the parks area, say that screamed out as beloning to socialists or socialist voters? The left love to shout down opinion that does not marry to their doctrine. Free speech was frowned up during the Blair regime, just ask that poor old man that was bundled out the Labour conference or the lady burned in the Paddington rail crash who was trashed by the labour govenment or that lady up t' north who was called a bigot by Brown when he thought he was safe to say what he really thought.

This is a forum. If anyone of any political persuasion does not like anyone exercising their own opinions or free speech then they should go elsewhere. Calling someone a cunt hardly makes that person a shining beacon of what this country stands for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 10:07:00
Cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 10:11:42
I must say I thought it was a requirement to be one to post on here, so it is rather stating the obvious


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 10:20:36
:suicide:On that basis you should have the moniker Levi Lapper Not Very Nice If I'm Honest then. As i see it there is a very left wing union style bias on this site and anyone offering a centre, right or even far right view is rounded upon and derided like a defenceless wounded animal. Interesting how those with centre, centre right or right views do not threaten or abuse like the left do in public. When was the last time a mass of Conservative voters tried to smash up or threaten anything in the parks area, say that screamed out as beloning to socialists or socialist voters? The left love to shout down opinion that does not marry to their doctrine. Free speech was frowned up during the Blair regime, just ask that poor old man that was bundled out the Labour conference or the lady burned in the Paddington rail crash who was trashed by the labour govenment or that lady up t' north who was called a bigot by Brown when he thought he was safe to say what he really thought.

This is a forum. If anyone of any political persuasion does not like anyone exercising their own opinions or free speech then they should go elsewhere. Calling someone a cunt hardly makes that person a shining beacon of what this country stands for.


There isn't a left wing bias on here at all. In fact I'd say those on the left of centre are in the minority. I'd also look at the manner of much of ironsides comments then think of your abuse allegations again.

I have nothing against the bloke and enjoy reading his posts even if I don't agree with them. Throws up debate which is good. Long may it continue.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 12:18:17
It is a forum. I see it differently, that is my opinion, yours is yours.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 13:07:11
:suicide:On that basis you should have the moniker Levi Lapper Not Very Nice If I'm Honest then. As i see it there is a very left wing union style bias on this site and anyone offering a centre, right or even far right view is rounded upon and derided like a defenceless wounded animal. Interesting how those with centre, centre right or right views do not threaten or abuse like the left do in public. When was the last time a mass of Conservative voters tried to smash up or threaten anything in the parks area, say that screamed out as beloning to socialists or socialist voters? The left love to shout down opinion that does not marry to their doctrine. Free speech was frowned up during the Blair regime, just ask that poor old man that was bundled out the Labour conference or the lady burned in the Paddington rail crash who was trashed by the labour govenment or that lady up t' north who was called a bigot by Brown when he thought he was safe to say what he really thought.

This is a forum. If anyone of any political persuasion does not like anyone exercising their own opinions or free speech then they should go elsewhere. Calling someone a cunt hardly makes that person a shining beacon of what this country stands for.

The left get all shouty and protesty.  The right just beat the shit out of each other to keep them in line.  In a country of over 60m people how can there be only two views?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BruceChatwin on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 13:21:34
A full-scale invasion is the only thing that is going to get rid of them. Or at least troops on the ground anyway and so far the "strategy" of operating through limited proxies (a Kurdish force attacked by the Turks and hamstrung by our unwillingness to upset our "allies", the laughably inept and corrupt Iraqi army, Assad's murderers and various rag-bag equally murderous Shia militias) coupled with bombing has achieved jack-shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6p1nn1CuZs


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 14:16:21
Lefties are always a bit shouty so probably seems there is a bias, there's probably a fairly even split of political persuasions on here


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 16:04:41
Left wingers are going to be more inclined to shoutiness (or protest) because they are more inclined to see injustice in the world around them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 16:13:29
Left wingers are going to be more inclined to shoutiness (or protest) because they are more inclined to see injustice in the world around them.
What a load of bollocks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 16:26:19
Interesting how those with centre, centre right or right views do not threaten or abuse like the left do in public.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34952981


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 16:32:17
What a load of bollocks.

Incisive.  Well-reasoned.

I like you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 16:33:23
Incisive.  Well-reasoned.

I like you.
Good job he wasn't abusive like those nasty lefties though


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 16:37:44
I didn't think that the point I made was particularly contentious, to be honest.  A fair few on the right would probably agree with it.  But there you go.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 17:18:04
What a load of bollocks.

Shouty and abusive...?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 23:11:16
:suicide:On that basis you should have the moniker Levi Lapper Not Very Nice If I'm Honest then. As i see it there is a very left wing union style bias on this site and anyone offering a centre, right or even far right view is rounded upon and derided like a defenceless wounded animal. Interesting how those with centre, centre right or right views do not threaten or abuse like the left do in public. When was the last time a mass of Conservative voters tried to smash up or threaten anything in the parks area, say that screamed out as beloning to socialists or socialist voters? The left love to shout down opinion that does not marry to their doctrine. Free speech was frowned up during the Blair regime, just ask that poor old man that was bundled out the Labour conference or the lady burned in the Paddington rail crash who was trashed by the labour govenment or that lady up t' north who was called a bigot by Brown when he thought he was safe to say what he really thought.

This is a forum. If anyone of any political persuasion does not like anyone exercising their own opinions or free speech then they should go elsewhere. Calling someone a cunt hardly makes that person a shining beacon of what this country stands for.

Oh bless.  I'm truly humbled that you've taken the time to enlighten us so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 23:33:07
:suicide:On that basis you should have the moniker Levi Lapper Not Very Nice If I'm Honest then. As i see it there is a very left wing union style bias on this site and anyone offering a centre, right or even far right view is rounded upon and derided like a defenceless wounded animal. Interesting how those with centre, centre right or right views do not threaten or abuse like the left do in public. When was the last time a mass of Conservative voters tried to smash up or threaten anything in the parks area, say that screamed out as beloning to socialists or socialist voters? The left love to shout down opinion that does not marry to their doctrine. Free speech was frowned up during the Blair regime, just ask that poor old man that was bundled out the Labour conference or the lady burned in the Paddington rail crash who was trashed by the labour govenment or that lady up t' north who was called a bigot by Brown when he thought he was safe to say what he really thought.

This is a forum. If anyone of any political persuasion does not like anyone exercising their own opinions or free speech then they should go elsewhere. Calling someone a cunt hardly makes that person a shining beacon of what this country stands for.

People who are shouty and angry act like people who are shouty and angry, whether they love Thatcher or Corbyn or Danny Dyer. People are cunts.

We are psychologically very susceptible to developing a sense of "otherness" when it comes to people we disagree with, i.e. assuming that their views or behaviour are somehow inferior or defective because they're not our own. These things rarely reflect reality. If you're right wing and carry the view that all lefties are mouthy (or vice versa) I'd be very careful to come to that conclusion without first acknowledging the very real effects of confirmation bias.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 23:34:34
Psychology or Sociology?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 23:37:49
One can't exist without the other!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, November 29, 2015, 01:05:17
It is a forum. I see it differently, that is my opinion, yours is yours.
Oh


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, December 11, 2015, 15:38:31
Psychology or Sociology?
Either way, it's still an 'ology' and despite Maureen's encouragement, far from science it remains...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, December 11, 2015, 16:14:03
Someone doesn't know what the ology suffix means


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, December 11, 2015, 17:18:55
Someone doesn't know what the ology suffix means
Yes he does.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, December 11, 2015, 17:29:25
It doesn't mean science, does it you thick cunt?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, December 11, 2015, 17:33:43
It doesn't mean science, does it you thick cunt?
You fucking idiot. That's the point of what I said you thick cunt..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Friday, December 11, 2015, 22:11:55
Now that I could argue about for a long time..

Who the fuck's Maureen?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, December 11, 2015, 22:30:44
Now that I could argue about for a long time..

Who the fuck's Maureen?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEfKEzX9QLE

maureen lipman


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Friday, December 11, 2015, 22:41:01
Weird, I've studied psychology for nearly a decade and no one's ever brought her up before. I've wasted my life


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, December 11, 2015, 22:55:45
That escalated quickly, all I was asking is which was Ells background given her post :-)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Friday, December 11, 2015, 23:04:10
That escalated quickly, all I was asking is which was Ells background given her post :-)

Apologies if I started something ! I am a psychology person. It's a very diverse subject though. If you work with people like I do, especially people in a forensic environment, the things that sociology covers become increasingly relevant (and interesting) I think :)


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, December 11, 2015, 23:23:07
Weird, I've studied psychology for nearly a decade and no one's ever brought her up before. I've wasted my life
When are you going to get a proper job?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Talk Talk on Friday, December 11, 2015, 23:24:32
When are you going to get a proper job?

Ooooooooooh

At least he didn't say that you should be doing the cleaning, washing and ironing Ells...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Friday, December 11, 2015, 23:28:33
When are you going to get a proper job?

When you grow a pair of braincells bigger than your minuscule pair of bollocks.
So not any time soon, sweetheart.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, December 11, 2015, 23:31:10
When you grow a pair of braincells bigger than your minuscule pair of bollocks.
So not any time soon, sweetheart.
So you'll be doing the cleaning, washing and ironing for rest of your life?


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Friday, December 11, 2015, 23:38:44
So you'll be doing the cleaning, washing and ironing for rest of your life?

That's not my job. People who do these jobs are called "cleaners". I am not a cleaner.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 00:05:03
That's not my job. People who do these jobs are called "cleaners". I am not a cleaner.
Brilliant. Once you've got your 'ology' you'll be qualified to be a waitress or something similar then?

A noble 'profession' and I hope you get tipped well...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 02:11:40
Pretty fucking low. Well done.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 08:32:47
Worst...troll...ever. Even SONN put in more effort.

----

Quite like psychology as a subject, I did a year at university as a secondary subject because it was a lot more interesting (and easier) than maths.

The conformity experiments were very interesting , as were the topics around memory. Less so the physiology side - I think I only made 2 or 3 of those lectures - they were at 8:30 - but even then lobotomy was covered which is interesting and slightly horrific.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 08:38:27
People could just ignore him if they don't like his posts.
He probably enjoys the negative responses.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 09:15:49
People could just ignore him if they don't like his posts.
He probably enjoys the negative responses.

He's just lonely and craves her attention.

I would not be surprised if we read about Ironside in the future in an article that ends "before turning the gun on himself"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: SuperBosnian on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 12:24:18
More like "before turning the gun on the crowd"


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 20:06:57
Brilliant. Once you've got your 'ology' you'll be qualified to be a waitress or something similar then?

A noble 'profession' and I hope you get tipped well...

You do realise I'm not an 18 year old student with no job, right?

Sorry to ruin your fantasy.

Attention seeking indeed.



Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 23:19:18
You do realise I'm not an 18 year old student with no job, right?

Sorry to ruin your fantasy.

Attention seeking indeed.

He's a sociopathic, misogynistic fascist on the Côte d'Azur who speaks no French.

That would normally have the local slappeurs queuing at the door. What went wrong?


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Sunday, December 13, 2015, 01:00:54
He's a sociopathic, misogynistic fascist on the Côte d'Azur who speaks no French.

That would normally have the local slappeurs queuing at the door. What went wrong?

You can't be an immigrant if you're British duh!
You've got to be at least a bit brown!


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 13:55:01
He's a sociopathic, misogynistic fascist on the Côte d'Azur who speaks no French.

That would normally have the local slappeurs queuing at the door. What went wrong?
Everything you've stated here is incorrect.

You fucking retards seem to think I believe everything I write on here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 14:11:02
Everything you've stated here is incorrect.

You fucking retards seem to think I believe everything I write on here.

You're younger than I thought you would be. Good to know you are French CRB checked though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DRS on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 14:21:42
Ironside has just got my vote for sports personality of the year


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 15:46:01
You're younger than I thought you would be. Good to know you are French CRB checked though.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/38ec450033744ea7377f5c89230a53f5.jpg)


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 15:46:41
Ironside has just got my vote for sports personality of the year
Save it for Cris Froome.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 15:55:46
Everything you've stated here is incorrect.

You fucking retards seem to think I believe everything I write on here.

Retards? really? You want to abuse the disabled now?  You're such a fascist prick. Or if you aren't, then you are just a prick. It's a lose lose.  :bye:


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 16:01:10
Retards? really? You want to abuse the disabled now?  You're such a fascist prick. Or if you aren't, then you are just a prick. It's a lose lose.  :bye:
You're such a gaylord it's not even worth taking your reply seriously...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 16:15:33
Still not grown out of using offensive terms in a sad attempt to wind people up? Are you 13?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 16:22:03
I haven't heard gaylord used pejoratively since I was eight. There's a certain nostalgia to that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 16:37:24
haha Gaylord - Ill have to tell my teenage children some ignorant moron has called me a gaylord on the internet! ha ha ha

Retro 70's insults keep them coming!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DRS on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 16:57:20
This thread is all a bit depressing isn't it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 17:06:17
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/38ec450033744ea7377f5c89230a53f5.jpg)

OK Steve.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 17:07:46
i like Gaylord..... takes me back to Dick Emery...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 17:24:37
This thread is all a bit depressing isn't it

When it descends into playground insults being batted backward and forward like a 70's TV game....

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/D-THUXZ1aE4/hqdefault.jpg)

....then yes.

However it is an opportunity for proper debate....so in the original post, approx a year ago, I suggested that climate change should be the most topic important during the May GE, flagging up the Paris Conference, well it's just finished and we're told it's all good.  So that's all right then? Yes/No?


Title: Re:
Post by: Ironside on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 17:35:15
The reaction from some says it all.


Title: Re:
Post by: Ells on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 17:44:05
The reaction from some says it all.

Which is exactly what a 13 year old troll would say.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 18:33:29
I haven't heard gaylord used pejoratively since I was eight. There's a certain nostalgia to that.
This thread is delightfully old school in its terminology, making me feel somewhat nostalgic.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 18:35:02
Still not grown out of using offensive terms in a sad attempt to wind people up? Are you 13?
To be fair I don't agree with anything that Ironside is saying but he seems to be doing a jolly good job in his 'sad attempt to wind people up'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 19:03:30
Hilarious


Title: Re: Re:
Post by: Ironside on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 19:11:44
Which is exactly what a 13 year old troll would say.
No, that's what you think a thirteen year old troll would say.

Tell me about your father...


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 20:37:43
Everything you've stated here is incorrect.

You fucking retards seem to think I believe everything I write on here.

Well if you're just some trolling onanist, you don't even have morbid freakshow interest any more. Bye.  :bye:


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 20:40:52
To be fair I don't agree with anything that Ironside is saying but he seems to be doing a jolly good job in his 'sad attempt to wind people up'.

Well no, he isn't.

It's a common misconception that responding to a troll is "success" for them and means you've suddenly gotten wound up. Whilst I hate ableist language etc, I was quite happy to get on with my day.

Trolls only achieve real validation when people get legitimately angry. At the end of the day, most people see it for what it is, feel pity, and move on.

No one here (Speaking for myself but I would hope others) is actually going to get wound up by a bigot calling them a gay lord.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 20:43:54
Well no, he isn't.

It's a common misconception that responding to a troll is "success" for them and means you've suddenly gotten wound up. Whilst I hate ableist language etc, I was quite happy to get on with my day.

Trolls only achieve real validation when people get legitimately angry. At the end of the day, most people see it for what it is, feel pity, and move on.

No one here (Speaking for myself but I would hope others) is actually going to get wound up by a bigot calling them a gay lord.
Whoosh...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 20:55:40
No one here (Speaking for myself but I would hope others) is actually going to get wound up by a bigot calling them a gay lord.

They might get wound up by this though....

It's a common misconception that responding to a troll is "success" for them and means you've suddenly gotten wound up. Whilst I hate ableist language etc, I was quite happy to get on with my day.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 21:05:49
They might get wound up by this though....

It's a common misconception that responding to a troll is "success" for them and means you've suddenly gotten wound up. Whilst I hate ableist language etc, I was quite happy to get on with my day.

Oh good. Now I'm over Ironside, I need someone to take my anger out on. Kids, eh?  ::)

And what's "ableist"? Someone who is a believer in able, or a German compound of ab and leist which google translate tells me means "from paid"? That girl's making less and less sense.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 21:49:31
Past participle of get. Could have phrased it better but I think the meaning was clear.

Ableism is to disability what racism is to race.. That should tell you what you need to know about ableist language. :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 21:56:15
Past participle of get. Could have phrased it better but I think the meaning was clear.

Ableism is to disability what racism is to race.. That should tell you what you need to know about ableist language. :)

You don't live nearly far enough west for that to be a valid past participle of get. I don't mean to be ableist, but your English is a bit dysfunctional.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 22:41:47
(http://i.imgur.com/LSOOSVW.gif)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 23:14:43
Ok, I give in. I used an Americanism. I've had 5 hours sleep in 3 days.
I won't do it again, no need to be such a douchebag!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, December 16, 2015, 16:17:38
Ok, I give in. I used an Americanism. I've had 5 hours sleep in 3 days.
I won't do it again, no need to be such a douchebag!

OK, since you're tired and emotional I'll let the missing apostrophe pass.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 31, 2015, 12:26:13
I may just be incredibly cynical, just from my reading of it and the fact that he has been a thorn in the side of Corbyn it does all have an air of honey trap about it!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35204398

He has made a bit of a knob of himself though!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DRS on Thursday, December 31, 2015, 12:29:39
You don't strike me as the cynical type.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 31, 2015, 12:31:24
You don't strike me as the cynical type.

On first reading I feared I had written cyclical or something rather than cynical, some say I am cynical, most just conclude that I am fucking miserable!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, December 31, 2015, 13:05:46
I may just be incredibly cynical, just from my reading of it and the fact that he has been a thorn in the side of Corbyn it does all have an air of honey trap about it!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35204398

He has made a bit of a knob of himself though!

Looking at the rack on the 17 year old, you can see why he got a bit carried away, nevertheless he should know better.

MP's legislate that the age of consent for professionals in a position of trust such as teachers is 18, not 16, therefore they can have no complaint that it is applied to them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, December 31, 2015, 13:38:50
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXi0sQ5W8AAU4dH.jpg:large)

Tehehe.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DarloSTFC84 on Thursday, December 31, 2015, 13:54:53
Looking at the rack on the 17 year old, you can see why he got a bit carried away, nevertheless he should know better.

MP's legislate that the age of consent for professionals in a position of trust such as teachers is 18, not 16, therefore they can have no complaint that it is applied to them.

Indeed, they're fucking massive.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dostoyevsky on Thursday, December 31, 2015, 16:05:06
Unless you acknowledge Zionism and it's insidious role you might as well be JayBox waving his "refugee welcome" banner and feeling unabashedly ashamed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, December 31, 2015, 17:14:28
feeling unabashedly ashamed

Is that like being exuberantly shy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Thursday, December 31, 2015, 18:18:29
More like deludedly misled.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, January 6, 2016, 12:07:19
Setting aside his policy completely, Corbyn really is laughably bad at adminstering the general political process for a man with 30 years experience as an MP, isn't he? This reshuffle is brilliant stuff. The Thick of It would never of got away with this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 6, 2016, 12:16:46
Setting aside his policy completely, Corbyn really is laughably bad at adminstering the general political process for a man with 30 years experience as an MP, isn't he? This reshuffle is brilliant stuff. The Thick of It would never of got away with this.

Ministers now resigning on live TV, this new politics is fantastic fun.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Wednesday, January 6, 2016, 12:44:22
Ministers now resigning on live TV, this new politics is fantastic fun.

But it's not new politics, it's 'Don't disagree with me... or be sacked' !!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 6, 2016, 15:33:44
Ministers now resigning on live TV, this new politics is fantastic fun.

Hopefully Osborne, IDS, Hunt and Morgan for starters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 6, 2016, 16:12:50
Hopefully Osborne, IDS, Hunt and Morgan for starters.

Speaking of Osbourne... was watching PMQ's earlier and he was as usual sat next to Cameron...

Is there something wrong with him, he seems to look ever more pale, unwell and haunted?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Wednesday, January 6, 2016, 16:17:03
Speaking of Osbourne... was watching PMQ's earlier and he was as usual sat next to Cameron...

Is there something wrong with him, he seems to look ever more pale, unwell and haunted?


Bit harsh! Continually missing his own fiscal targets must surely take a heavy toll, give the guy a break.

Or maybe he isn't too bothered by all that and instead it is because he's just come off his Christmas Diet and is struggling with the regression back to normal food and balanced diets. If so, I can sympathise.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Wednesday, January 6, 2016, 16:27:52
Speaking of Osbourne... was watching PMQ's earlier and he was as usual sat next to Cameron...

Is there something wrong with him, he seems to look ever more pale, unwell and haunted?


He's gone a shade too dark with his hair dye


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 6, 2016, 17:00:39
He's gone a shade too dark with his hair dye

That could be it, he just looks ill.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, January 6, 2016, 20:13:01
That could be it, he just looks ill.

Too much gear probably


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, January 7, 2016, 06:05:30
Speaking of Osbourne... was watching PMQ's earlier and he was as usual sat next to Cameron...

Is there something wrong with him, he seems to look ever more pale, unwell and haunted?


Peaky and Porky?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, January 7, 2016, 19:53:18
Does anyone on here dye their hair? I'm a bit badger but don't care.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 15, 2016, 09:31:18
Just stop for a minute and consider one of these two could soon be American president....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-35320021


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, January 17, 2016, 13:59:09
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35337432

Not getting involved with the discussion regarding Trident however he is now just making this stuff up off the top of his head...

So to maintain jobs he plans to spend billions on submarines that have no function?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, January 17, 2016, 15:02:40
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35337432

Not getting involved with the discussion regarding Trident however he is now just making this stuff up off the top of his head...

So to maintain jobs he plans to spend billions on submarines that have no function?
That's not what he said and as for making stuff up off the top of his head, Japan was mentioned for doing the same already.
Great point as well from Corbyn about companies paying dividends to shareholders, whilst not paying their employees a living wage.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, January 17, 2016, 15:20:36

Great point as well from Corbyn about companies paying dividends to shareholders, whilst not paying their employees a living wage.

Is the legal basis in place (or ever going to be accepted by parliament) to stop companies paying dividends to their shareholders if they so choose - going to piss of the stock markets (and thus by extension most of the pension funds we all pay into) if a company dividend is bought under the control of the government.

At last good to see some flesh on the bones, but he will need to be careful what he promises can be delivered in government, I suspect that Momentum will be somewhat less forgiving that the Lib Dem membership were if promises are never delivered when the opportunity arises.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Sunday, January 17, 2016, 15:37:29
Is the legal basis in place (or ever going to be accepted by parliament) to stop companies paying dividends to their shareholders if they so choose - going to piss of the stock markets (and thus by extension most of the pension funds we all pay into) if a company dividend is bought under the control of the government.

Funds would just move to companies that were able to pay the dividend, thereby punishing those that aren't paying a living wage. It wouldn't be under the control of government as such, it would just be a condition they have to fulfil. No idea about the legality though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, January 17, 2016, 15:46:16
Funds would just move to companies that were able to pay the dividend, thereby punishing those that aren't paying a living wage. It wouldn't be under the control of government as such, it would just be a condition they have to fulfil. No idea about the legality though.

I understand the principle, its how it can be delivered that is wooly, I can just see it ending up like tax evasion has under successive governments in that they bang on about it, their supporters say how they will be much stronger than their predecessors on the issue and then when it actually has to be delivered nothing happens as the specialists that the corporations use tend to be better than those within government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Sunday, January 17, 2016, 15:55:23
Possibly, I'd guess you could make it pretty straightforward if you wanted too. It certainly would require a real desire to make it work. It still amazes me that after the financial crisis, the likes of RBS could still tell the government no. They should have been our bitches!

Another possible problem could be companies moving jobs out of the country to avoid the rule. Yeah, it'll never work :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, January 18, 2016, 18:45:07
Just stop for a minute and consider one of these two could soon be American president....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-35320021

Parliament is currently debating banning Trump for saying he'd have a moratorium on Muslim immigration/travel to the US, until the security situation is stabilised.  Apparently 30 odd % of norverners think it should apply here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, January 18, 2016, 19:21:40
Let's also ban those norveners too.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, January 18, 2016, 20:20:26
Let's also ban those norveners too.
Oi!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, January 29, 2016, 14:57:05
 Got to love the story, I assume it's true, that the Parliament wished to use a nearby building when The Palace of Westminster, is closed for renovation, only to discover it's been leased to an Islamic finance operation, so now operates under Sharia Law. It can be used but no alcohol consumption or bars  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, January 29, 2016, 15:44:36
I also see that the government department responsible for Gideons big 'Northern Powerhouse' publicity splash are being shutdown and moved to London.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/northern-powerhouse-department-close-sheffield-7265022

So in addition to this, this week they've been defeated twice in the lords, the hated bedroom tax has been declared illegal - not just immoral, they've allowed google to pay tax at 3% whilst the Italian have managed to get 15%, the health minister has been censured by a judge who has told him to remove a tweet which may prejudice a legal case and they have done a u turn on legal reforms. 

All hidden by the fact that the PM and his cohorts have decided that sneeringly referring to potential immigrants as a 'bunch of migrants'. 

Thats just off the top of my head.

I tell you what.  I dont like em.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, January 29, 2016, 16:43:55
I also see that the government department responsible for Gideons big 'Northern Powerhouse' publicity splash are being shutdown and moved to London.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/northern-powerhouse-department-close-sheffield-7265022

So in addition to this, this week they've been defeated twice in the lords, the hated bedroom tax has been declared illegal - not just immoral, they've allowed google to pay tax at 3% whilst the Italian have managed to get 15%, the health minister has been censured by a judge who has told him to remove a tweet which may prejudice a legal case and they have done a u turn on legal reforms. 

All hidden by the fact that the PM and his cohorts have decided that sneeringly referring to potential immigrants as a 'bunch of migrants'. 

Thats just off the top of my head.

I tell you what.  I dont like em.

And it's the opposition that are unelectable!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 29, 2016, 16:53:34
I also see that the government department responsible for Gideons big 'Northern Powerhouse' publicity splash are being shutdown and moved to London.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/northern-powerhouse-department-close-sheffield-7265022

So in addition to this, this week they've been defeated twice in the lords, the hated bedroom tax has been declared illegal - not just immoral, they've allowed google to pay tax at 3% whilst the Italian have managed to get 15%, the health minister has been censured by a judge who has told him to remove a tweet which may prejudice a legal case and they have done a u turn on legal reforms. 

All hidden by the fact that the PM and his cohorts have decided that sneeringly referring to potential immigrants as a 'bunch of migrants'. 

Thats just off the top of my head.

I tell you what.  I dont like em.

And while they have no opposition in the Commons they will just continue to do what they want!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, January 29, 2016, 17:05:16
And while they have no opposition in the Commons they will just continue to do what they want!


Corbyn's main problem is that he is trying to dilute his beliefs for the sake of party unity....it just creates a mess. 

He was elected on the premise of a new kind of politics, and should get on with it....namely a deselection purge of recalcitrant MP's who vote for things like bombing Syria.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 29, 2016, 17:18:45
Corbyn's main problem is that he is trying to dilute his beliefs for the sake of party unity....it just creates a mess.  

He was elected on the premise of a new kind of politics, and should get on with it....namely a deselection purge of recalcitrant MP's who vote for things like bombing Syria.

Both sides need to split but neither will as they will lose the power in parliament that the combined party holds - and who will vote for them from the general electorate not knowing which arm will prevail. Basically someone needs to grow a pair and push the split through.

As for Corbyn he sounded like a breath of fresh air when elected but I am now unconvinced he is any better than the rest, his image seemingly the most important commodity! So we have the situation whereby he makes controversial socialist statement, this then clarified/watered down by a spokesman/Diane Abbott/Cat Smith to something more palatable to the centre but it is still on record that Corbyn made the statement which his acolytes will adore and the back down is credited to another!

The problem with the Labour Party rightly kicking off about the Google tax thing is the fact that the period covered is 2006-2011 a period which for the vast majority was covered by a Labour government and 3% is better than 0%.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, January 29, 2016, 18:12:54
 I suspect that Labour will eventually split....again.

Corbyn I suspect is a Bennite anti EU man, and would have liked to see come out for a no vote in the referendum. Cameron will have his own problems trying to keep the Tories from lurching further to the right in the coming months.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 29, 2016, 18:27:27
I suspect that Labour will eventually split....again.

Corbyn I suspect is a Bennite anti EU man, and would have liked to see come out for a no vote in the referendum. Cameron will have his own problems trying to keep the Tories from lurching further to the right in the coming months.

 

Indeed - British politics is a complete bloody mess at the moment and the only ones suffering whilst both major parties wave their accouterments around is us - the general electorate. The Tories can essentially do what they like (as shown by the increasing use of SI's to bypass parliament) whilst the Labour Party spend their days bickering - See Corbyn choosing to raise Trident the other weekend which plays to his acolytes rather than raising important issues such the further decay of student finance whilst interviewed on th telly - its a shambles and even the Lib Dems seem to have retreated into a bunker and are doing very little.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, January 29, 2016, 18:34:27
Indeed - British politics is a complete bloody mess at the moment and the only ones suffering whilst both major parties wave their accouterments around is us - the general electorate. The Tories can essentially do what they like (as shown by the increasing use of SI's to bypass parliament) whilst the Labour Party spend their days bickering - See Corbyn choosing to raise Trident the other weekend which plays to his acolytes rather than raising important issues such the further decay of student finance whilst interviewed on th telly - its a shambles and even the Lib Dems seem to have retreated into a bunker and are doing very little.

A good precis, up til the "even the Lib Dems" point. The LD's got into bed with the Tories for the sake of a few ministerial cars....self serving like any Tory and a lot of Labour...and fuck the principles on which the gullible voted for us.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, January 29, 2016, 19:29:49
Ministerial cars or not, the LDs had a significant moderating effect on what the Nasty Party was able to implement.

Not sure Ironside would approve of that effect but for me the effect as a whole was more balanced than the present mono-party government elected by minority


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Friday, January 29, 2016, 19:37:44
Got to love the story, I assume it's true, that the Parliament wished to use a nearby building when The Palace of Westminster, is closed for renovation, only to discover it's been leased to an Islamic finance operation, so now operates under Sharia Law. It can be used but no alcohol consumption or bars  :)

Got to be bollocks, there's no such thing here. If it isn't bollocks then serious questions need to be asked and fast.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Friday, January 29, 2016, 21:56:26
Got to love the story, I assume it's true, that the Parliament wished to use a nearby building when The Palace of Westminster, is closed for renovation, only to discover it's been leased to an Islamic finance operation, so now operates under Sharia Law. It can be used but no alcohol consumption or bars  :)

How can that happen ?
I didn't realise that the owner of a building could dictate what laws operate within it ?

What's to stop a nightclub owner selling drugs and saying he's operating under Colombian law ?

Fucking madness


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 29, 2016, 22:30:02
How can that happen ?
I didn't realise that the owner of a building could dictate what laws operate within it ?

What's to stop a nightclub owner selling drugs and saying he's operating under Colombian law ?

Fucking madness
No idea whether it's true, however owner could control use and matters of selling alcohol etc by way of restrictive covenants on the title - for instance normally if you buy a closed pub off a brewery they impose a covenant you cannot reopen selling booze - been looking at one thus this very week.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Saturday, January 30, 2016, 00:14:53
yea..........but he said sharia law


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, January 30, 2016, 02:10:44
yea..........but he said sharia law
TBF, I think Frinton on Sea was dry for many years at the behest of the owner of the land...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Saturday, January 30, 2016, 02:25:06
There were no/few pubs in Street for a long time also, due to the Clarks family being Quakers. I'm not sure a leaseholder not wanting alcohol sold on a premises constitutes as being under Sharia law, but then I'm no lawyer. I'm not sure it's true either  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, January 30, 2016, 02:41:34
 Whatever bunch of religious nutjobs want to stop the rest of us having a good time, there's no denying there's rich irony in the bloated talking trough which is Parliament, not being able to get a drink is sweet. It was only while back that the 800 Lords were moaning about the quality of gratis champagne on offer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Saturday, January 30, 2016, 08:44:43
How can that happen ?
I didn't realise that the owner of a building could dictate what laws operate within it ?

What's to stop a nightclub owner selling drugs and saying he's operating under Colombian law ?

Fucking madness

It's not that difficult to understand how a business owner can run their property as long as it doesn't break the laws of the land?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, February 2, 2016, 14:55:20
 So Cameron has sort of got his "deal" with the EU.....doesn't look much like his list of demands back in the summer. In fact had he not bothered pandering to his right on the referendum, I'm not sure anyone would have much noticed or cared what he's come up with.

 What it does seem to have done is flag up that the swivel eyed loons, who said we're effectively governed by the EU look to be right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Tuesday, February 2, 2016, 15:21:56
He came to where I work in Chippenham for his big speech, but I had better things to do...lunch !!

Re. the EU, the unelected Eurocrats don't want to change. They're quite happily picking up their pay and perks. They are failed politicians in their old country and now they're getting a nice wedge until they retire. You take Juncker, who as PM of Luxembourg, did more than most for big companies, like Amazon, to register in his country, so they pay less tax, only to now ask companies to pay their fair share...and the EU as a whole, say to reduce carbon emissions, yet they move everything from Brussels to Strasbourg twice a month, so France can be head of Europe. Hypocritical madness !!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Tuesday, February 2, 2016, 15:32:46
And as I said on twitter, I cant believe he's come to a place with ham in its name to a company called Siemens and I couldn't think of a single joke.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, February 2, 2016, 17:49:19
Two questions in relation to this photo:

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03565/Iowa-trump-phone_3565193b.jpg)

  • Is the growth direction of Trump's sweepover/hair piece meant to be left to right or right to left?  I genuinely cannot tell from the photo.  Which side is the parting on?
  • Why do American politicians feel the need to pin the flag to their lapels?  Is it in case they forget which country they're in?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, February 2, 2016, 18:14:10
I didn't notice Trump or the young girl were even in that picture


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Tuesday, February 2, 2016, 19:11:48
So Cameron has sort of got his "deal" with the EU.....doesn't look much like his list of demands back in the summer. In fact had he not bothered pandering to his right on the referendum, I'm not sure anyone would have much noticed or cared what he's come up with.

 What it does seem to have done is flag up that the swivel eyed loons, who said we're effectively governed by the EU look to be right.
What he said on TV and in his election manifesto he has backtracked on - again!!  Come to this country, claim to have 12 children in your home country and we send them children's benefit!!  Ridiculous!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Tuesday, February 2, 2016, 19:16:03
Words and words and words and exclamation marks!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Saturday, February 20, 2016, 12:14:59
Camerons taken on the Europeans, asked for fuck all and in typical Euro fudge been offered bugger all.
Now the arguing and bitching starts. After the politics of fear as been victorious and we vote to stay in, we will be tied to the bed and ass fucked till the end of time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Saturday, February 20, 2016, 13:54:24
Camerons taken on the Europeans, asked for fuck all and in typical Euro fudge been offered bugger all.
Now the arguing and bitching starts. After the politics of fear as been victorious and we vote to stay in, we will be tied to the bed and ass fucked till the end of time.

Sodomy seems to loom large in your choices of imagery. Is this Freudian?


Title: Re:
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, February 20, 2016, 17:03:05
So the out side have Farage, Gove - all they need to get now is Jeremy Hunt and they will have put off the floating voters without even discussing the Europe question.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, February 20, 2016, 17:05:20
So the out side have Farage, Gove - all they need to get now is Jeremy Hunt and they will have put off the floating voters without even discussing the Europe question.

I'll bet that Hunt has been begged not to take a position by both sides.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Saturday, February 20, 2016, 17:43:21
Jeez, now even Michael Gove is having a pop at us


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, February 20, 2016, 17:47:15
None of you lot have the brains to understand shit like this, so why don't you all just fuck off you cuntwobbbles.

Good point, think I'll just flip a coin then. Heads we're in, tails we're out. Thanks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Saturday, February 20, 2016, 19:05:50
Sodomy seems to loom large in your choices of imagery. Is this Freudian?
well it was supposed to be imagery but I have dabbled in buggery, only as a giver, never as a taker. so tell me, is it painful on the receiving end?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, February 20, 2016, 19:22:48
Jeez, now even Michael Gove is having a pop at us
Looking at it, it seems to be similar to Hunt's negotiations with the junior doctors, Jeremy Hunt is trolling us (is that just rhyming slang?)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, February 20, 2016, 19:53:36
well it was supposed to be imagery but I have dabbled in buggery, only as a giver, never as a taker. so tell me, is it painful on the receiving end?
Didn't you ask him afterwards?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, February 20, 2016, 20:24:07
Isn't everyone looking forward to a four month argument based largely on fear and rhetoric because the actual content, whilst important, is crushingly dull and complicated, with opposing sides not even particularly easy to choose on which group you dislike more? Good luck choosing between Galloway, IDS, Farage, Grayling and Gove vs Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn, Goldman Sachs, the CBI and Clegg.

Only joking, obviously you pick the side without Galloway on it, but it's not much of a choice.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, February 20, 2016, 20:49:16
I'm undecided. Scaremongering from both sides of the argument.
If we opt out and that gets rid of shitty driving hour laws and cpc bollocks that are a pain in the arse then I'll selfishly be for it. No idea if that would happen though ?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, February 20, 2016, 23:18:42
I'm undecided. Scaremongering from both sides of the argument.
If we opt out and that gets rid of shitty driving hour laws and cpc bollocks that are a pain in the arse then I'll selfishly be for it. No idea if that would happen though ?
I'm equally undecided... My heart says one thing but I need to really think about things.. However we now have Gove, Farage, Boris (as the opening shot of his leadership campaign), Galloway as the poster boys of the leave campaign.... That's a bloody scary bunch of odd balls.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Sunday, February 21, 2016, 07:39:16
I'd vote for greater integration if I could... stop sitting on the sidelines and try to make it work for everyone


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, February 21, 2016, 14:04:08
Sheesh...there's a Countdown Clock on the Telegraph website to 10pm, at which point Johnson is going to climb down off the fence and announce to his adoring masses his position on the EU Referendum.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12166968/eu-referendum-david-cameron-boris-johnson-live.html

Could there be any politician more up their own arse, more satisfied by their own reflection, more convinced of their own importance?  A countdown!?

Everything about personality.  Everything calibrated for the cameras and newspapers.

I hate this campaign already.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, February 21, 2016, 14:07:41
If Johnson really does have aspirations to lead the country at some point - and I think it's fair to say that he does - he might want to try to actually lead at some point rather than sitting on the fence and waiting for everyone else to make their own mind up first/looking to see which way the wind is blowing.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, February 21, 2016, 16:54:46
If Johnson really does have aspirations to lead the country at some point - and I think it's fair to say that he does - he might want to try to actually lead at some point rather than sitting on the fence and waiting for everyone else to make their own mind up first/looking to see which way the wind is blowing.
He was always going to take the opposing view to Osborne and Cameron as it makes him distant in order to pursue his leadership ambitions.

Just listening to his announcement, he really is a self serving tool.

Looking forward, a Johnson v. Corbyn general election in the future looks interesting?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, February 21, 2016, 17:55:22
Johnson has just won himself the Tory leadership, no doubt about that. The Tory rank and file are heavily anti-EU even if the leaders aren't. He knows what he's doing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, February 21, 2016, 18:51:04
I don't know whether we'd be better off in or out, or that it would make much difference to me personally either way. The trade argument from the out campaign doesn't seem to be accurate, as UK companies trade globally at the moment, although their point around better border controls is a good one.
The champions for both sides are odious cunts, so I don't think I'll be voting on personalities...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, February 21, 2016, 19:25:36
I don't know whether we'd be better off in or out, or that it would make much difference to me personally either way. The trade argument from the out campaign doesn't seem to be accurate, as UK companies trade globally at the moment, although their point around better border controls is a good one.
The champions for both sides are odious cunts, so I don't think I'll be voting on personalities...
I am hoping that in light of the general wankerness of both the in and out campaigns that the shake it all about campaign can come up with something?

In all seriousness a Corbyn v. Johnson general election in 2020 is frightening, wouldn't trust either to lead a sports team let along a country.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, February 21, 2016, 19:38:50
I am hoping that in light of the general wankerness of both the in and out campaigns that the shake it all about campaign can come up with something?

In all seriousness a Corbyn v. Johnson general election in 2020 is frightening, wouldn't trust either to lead a sports team let along a country.

Isn't one of the out arguments, that our elected politicians don't run the country anyway, it is run from Brussels, on behalf of multi-nationals and bankers?

Hence, Cameron trots off to Brussels try and get some decision making back, but is essentialy told to fuck off. A more principled politician, would have come back and led the out campaign.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: nigel grays a postie on Sunday, February 21, 2016, 19:46:20
Principles? Why would you want them when you are cosying up to bankers and multi nationals?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Sunday, February 21, 2016, 19:56:38
Hence, Cameron trots off to Brussels try and get some decision making back, but is essentialy told to fuck off. A more principled politician, would have come back and led the out campaign.

Hollande and Merkel have both said today that there are no treaty changes planned, so Cameron did bring back a worthless piece of paper back.


Title: Re:
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 23, 2016, 07:54:53
Well that's me persuaded then

https://youtu.be/BBi-KXc0CRk


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, February 23, 2016, 11:58:37
Ok so the one on the right is clearly Boris but I'm struggling with the brunette.  John Redwood?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 23, 2016, 12:14:33
Ok so the one on the right is clearly Boris but I'm struggling with the brunette.  John Redwood?

It bought back some horrible nightmares of this classic....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGwB-f1xfxM




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Tuesday, February 23, 2016, 18:38:04
Which side is Jeremy Hunt on? Whichever it is, I'm on the other side....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, February 23, 2016, 19:17:14
Which side is Jeremy Hunt on? Whichever it is, I'm on the other side....

He's for staying.....like South Swindon MP Robert Buckland.  Justin Tomlinson is still thinking about it  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JoeMezz on Wednesday, February 24, 2016, 19:06:47
PM Questions is really starting to piss me off. Talking about junior doctors earlier and Cameron tries to insult what Corbyn is wearing. How is that relevant?? They all act like a bunch of school kids on a playground


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, February 24, 2016, 19:43:56
Cameron had that jibe prepared well in advance.  He's already sounding like yesterday's man, just like Blair used to shortly before he left the stage.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, February 24, 2016, 19:52:22
Cameron is a fucking hypocrite. Praises the emergency services whilst cutting them to the bone.

Tosser.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Wednesday, February 24, 2016, 21:09:40
Don't know why this thread exists, they are all self serving wankers. fuck politics, get back to spears, big fires and eating the nearest tribe to you. Which hopefully is the labour/tory/liberal/republican/politburo tribe


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Friday, February 26, 2016, 19:48:14
Quote
George Osborne warns of further spending cuts in Budget

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35672158 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35672158)

Sounds like George & Dave's "long term economic plan" is becoming even more long term.

I'm sure that it will start working sooner or later  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Friday, February 26, 2016, 21:44:24
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35672158 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35672158)

Sounds like George & Dave's "long term economic plan" is becoming even more long term.

I'm sure that it will start working sooner or later  :)

Voting leave will save our EU contributions of £11.5bn this year. Problem solved.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, February 26, 2016, 22:55:38
Which gives the Tories more money to not spend on social service.

Net loss is c.£4-5 billion in the eu, I won't deny that. But the eu has funded so many regeneration projects in this country in the north and Midlands. The whole area around the bullring in Birmingham was funded by eu money. Would the Tories (or whatever government was in at the time) have done the same???


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, February 26, 2016, 23:34:13
Mps getting another payrise, so thats alright


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: skiptotheLouMacari on Saturday, February 27, 2016, 08:22:02
Politics brings out the very worst in people, hence why many never get drawn into conversation of which way the vote.
As for the in/out vote we the electorate should be told what it costs us annually and how much we recover. What laws we must abide by what we can enforce. If they fucking gave us the whole cunting story then people would be better advised to make the choice that best represents them. However it's very cloak and dagger nobody wants to tell us the whole story either way because there is good and bad in both camps.

As for them getting another pay rise while still threatening more cuts is preposterous, they clearly have no conscience. Why i read this thread is beyond me it infuriates me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, February 27, 2016, 09:23:52
Quote
As for the in/out vote we the electorate should be told what it costs us annually and how much we recover.

As someone who knows absolutely the bare minimum of how Europe works, I suspect that doesn't mean I'm in a minority, I think its really a hard thing to quantify. OK the raw how much we put in v how much we take out is reasonably calculable - but how much UK business loses/gains by coming out seems to be be arguable to whatever you want it to be!

On one side if we stay in we know what we get. Which seems less risky, but that's not necessarily the case if the Eurozone collapses and we find ourselves aboard the financial titanic.

On the other coming out puts us in charge of our own destiny. But I'm not convinced the markets will continue to be as easy to trade in should we do so.

Here is how I see it: We continue to massively export into Europe (http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/), and so its better to be in and have a small say in how that's governed rather than come out and have none.

Simplistic,wrong, ill informed. Probably. But that's the problem of the referendum for the common man isn't it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: skiptotheLouMacari on Saturday, February 27, 2016, 10:08:27
As someone who knows absolutely the bare minimum of how Europe works, I suspect that doesn't mean I'm in a minority, I think its really a hard thing to quantify. OK the raw how much we put in v how much we take out is reasonably calculable - but how much UK business loses/gains by coming out seems to be be arguable to whatever you want it to be!

On one side if we stay in we know what we get. Which seems less risky, but that's not necessarily the case if the Eurozone collapses and we find ourselves aboard the financial titanic.

On the other coming out puts us in charge of our own destiny. But I'm not convinced the markets will continue to be as easy to trade in should we do so.

Here is how I see it: We continue to massively export into Europe (http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/), and so its better to be in and have a small say in how that's governed rather than come out and have none.

Simplistic,wrong, ill informed. Probably. But that's the problem of the referendum for the common man isn't it?

I couldn't agree anymore with what you said.
To that end why cant the yes or no campaign come out and say the pros and cons for supporting our campaign is etc? It would give them the edge over the other campaign because they would have to react to it and would then be seen airing on the side of caution by not disclosing the good and bad.
I'm all for having our own laws and borders keeping the pound hasn't affected trade but to cut all ties? 

It needs honesty and open debate from both sides, don't counter an accusation with another accusation, answer it even if it isn't popular but then come back with a pro for your campaign.

But there lies the problem, honesty!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Saturday, February 27, 2016, 15:33:30
Net loss is c.£4-5 billion in the eu, I won't deny that.

Our net contribution to the EU is due to be £11.5bn this year, the highest of all the countries in the EU. It has significantly increased since Blair gave up our rebate about 10 years ago.

And it looks like the EU are holding back legislation, which includes trying include to increase their budget, which will mean the UK paying even more.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/02/25/brussels-time-bomb-eu-is-holding-back-key-legislation-for-fear-of-fuelling-brexit/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, February 27, 2016, 16:08:33
The problem is that you can't just say that if we leave we'll pay nothing in - the Swiss and Norwegians still have to pay in to the overall pot in return for trade deals as I understand it. This is why both sides seem to be able to claim their option is better financially, as it's just not as simple as pay X in get Y back


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, February 27, 2016, 16:53:26
You could realistically argue that we would not pay as much as the Swiss and Norwegians.  Our economy is many times bigger and this would give us a greater degree of bargaining power in negotiating trade deals.  But it can't be quantified precisely, as you say.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Saturday, February 27, 2016, 18:40:47
Politics brings out the very worst in people, hence why many never get drawn into conversation of which way the vote.
As for the in/out vote we the electorate should be told what it costs us annually and how much we recover. What laws we must abide by what we can enforce. If they fucking gave us the whole cunting story then people would be better advised to make the choice that best represents them. However it's very cloak and dagger nobody wants to tell us the whole story either way because there is good and bad in both camps.

As for them getting another pay rise while still threatening more cuts is preposterous, they clearly have no conscience. Why i read this thread is beyond me it infuriates me.

The whole story? You mean like the fact that MP's don't set their own pay levels, that it's an independent body (IPSA) that sets it, that a lot of MP's are opposed to the pay rise but other than giving the money away there is nothing they can do about it? Ironically, the IPSA was created as a result of the expenses scandal to avoid MP's being accused of and being able to line their own pockets.

And it looks like the EU are holding back legislation, which includes trying include to increase their budget, which will mean the UK paying even more.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/02/25/brussels-time-bomb-eu-is-holding-back-key-legislation-for-fear-of-fuelling-brexit/

That article is misleading at best. The budget isn't set by the European Commission, they just suggest an amount. It has to be approved and agreed by the European Parliament and most importantly by all member states. Pretty certain they tried getting a big raise last time and failed miserably.

Also pretty certain we're already bound by the ECHR, which the article makes out will be something new. Incidentally, the Tories had been planning to get us out of the ECHR but gave up on the idea due to the amount of opposition to the idea. Which means the ECHR is now being used as a reason to stay in and leave the EU at the same time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, February 27, 2016, 18:51:15
Arguably (ie my view, but not everyone's), it's precisely because MPs aren't paid enough that the whole expenses scandal blew up in the first place during the early years of this decade.  MPs' salaries are not attractive compared with what most, with similar skills, could be earning elsewhere.

There's train of thought in some quarters that MPs should do the job practically for the love of it...which I don't buy at all.  If you value democracy, you have to value the people you elect to make it work.  And that means paying them a salary that, yes, is probably several times the average wage.  If you think you could do a better job, put yourself up for election in 2020.

If you want your MPs to work for well below market rates, the only people putting themselves forward for election would be those who are independently wealthy who could afford to do the job as a hobby.  You'd have a parliament of Camerons and Johnsons...and eventually, Trumps.  Think on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Monday, February 29, 2016, 02:04:46
Arguably (ie my view, but not everyone's), it's precisely because MPs aren't paid enough that the whole expenses scandal blew up in the first place during the early years of this decade.  MPs' salaries are not attractive compared with what most, with similar skills, could be earning elsewhere.

There's train of thought in some quarters that MPs should do the job practically for the love of it...which I don't buy at all.  If you value democracy, you have to value the people you elect to make it work.  And that means paying them a salary that, yes, is probably several times the average wage.  If you think you could do a better job, put yourself up for election in 2020.

If you want your MPs to work for well below market rates, the only people putting themselves forward for election would be those who are independently wealthy who could afford to do the job as a hobby.  You'd have a parliament of Camerons and Johnsons...and eventually, Trumps.  Think on.

As an MP you should definitely get properly compensated for your time at work. But you should also be banned from using private health care or sending your kid to posh school.

Also no pension. When you retire you get the state one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 3, 2016, 09:26:48
Strong speculation in the press at the moment that Osborne is going to deliver a 'Pensions Bombshell' in his Budget later this month.  The most radical option being considered is the Pension ISA - which would involve scrapping all tax relief on pension contributions, and replacing with a commitment that money saved this way would not be taxed 'on the way out' (ie in retirement).

Of course, very few of is would pay much tax in retirement anyway.  This would destroy the concept of pension saving as we currently know it.  A recipe for an impoverished pensioner population in the 2030s and beyond.  If you're 50 or under, be afraid.  This would be a massive attack on your future standard of living.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Thursday, March 3, 2016, 09:30:59
All in it together!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 3, 2016, 09:40:26
Strong speculation in the press at the moment that Osborne is going to deliver a 'Pensions Bombshell' in his Budget later this month.  The most radical option being considered is the Pension ISA - which would involve scrapping all tax relief on pension contributions, and replacing with a commitment that money saved this way would not be taxed 'on the way out' (ie in retirement).

Of course, very few of is would pay much tax in retirement anyway.  This would destroy the concept of pension saving as we currently know it.  A recipe for an impoverished pensioner population in the 2030s and beyond.  If you're 50 or under, be afraid.  This would be a massive attack on your future standard of living.

I assume this is building upon the pensions changes that Brown bought in years back, it does look like in more and more cases a traditional pension approach is not going to be viable when we get old!

Similarly I had a meeting with our accountant last week and small businesses are getting bloody zero assistance from the government, the tax regime (which can be circumvented by the big boys) just makes it very depressing to even try and make money - the myth that this is a government that encourages small business has been driven home to me!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, March 3, 2016, 10:20:24
Strong speculation in the press at the moment that Osborne is going to deliver a 'Pensions Bombshell' in his Budget later this month.  The most radical option being considered is the Pension ISA - which would involve scrapping all tax relief on pension contributions, and replacing with a commitment that money saved this way would not be taxed 'on the way out' (ie in retirement).

Of course, very few of is would pay much tax in retirement anyway.  This would destroy the concept of pension saving as we currently know it.  A recipe for an impoverished pensioner population in the 2030s and beyond.  If you're 50 or under, be afraid.  This would be a massive attack on your future standard of living.

It appears the plan is to link pension age to how long you can be expected to live, so as life expectancy increases, pension qualification age goes up. Therefore they'll get their pensions earlier in Scotland, as they die younger.

One thing is for sure, this government is not to be trusted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, March 3, 2016, 10:49:30
Move to Glasgow, you'll get a pension at 30


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, March 3, 2016, 10:55:03
On one hand Osborn needs to increase the tax take and pensions are prime picking ground. On the other hand the government need to seriously encourage retirement saving.

This 'pension ISA' has been on the cards for a while. It satisfies the treasury because it brings the tax take forward by about 40 years. For basic rate tax payers the change would be fairly neutral in the longer term, but higher and additional rate payers would be hit the most. It'd be a big change but not necessarily a bombshell.

A more worrying potential change is the removal of tax free cash. Again something that's been talked about for an age but no chancellor has ever had the balls to do it. We'll see if Osborn does.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, March 3, 2016, 11:16:15
If you're ever going to take a big political risk as a chancellor, it's probably best to do so whilst your shadow is John McDonnell.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 3, 2016, 11:24:48
As an MP you should definitely get properly compensated for your time at work. But you should also be banned from using private health care or sending your kid to posh school.

Also no pension. When you retire you get the state one.

Spot on (x 1,000).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 3, 2016, 12:00:02
It appears the plan is to link pension age to how long you can be expected to live, so as life expectancy increases, pension qualification age goes up. Therefore they'll get their pensions earlier in Scotland, as they die younger.

One thing is for sure, this government is not to be trusted.

I am inclined to agree although I would change your finala sentence to 'any government is not to be trusted'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 3, 2016, 12:06:12
On one hand Osborn needs to increase the tax take and pensions are prime picking ground. On the other hand the government need to seriously encourage retirement saving.

This 'pension ISA' has been on the cards for a while. It satisfies the treasury because it brings the tax take forward by about 40 years. For basic rate tax payers the change would be fairly neutral in the longer term, but higher and additional rate payers would be hit the most. It'd be a big change but not necessarily a bombshell.

A more worrying potential change is the removal of tax free cash. Again something that's been talked about for an age but no chancellor has ever had the balls to do it. We'll see if Osborn does.

I don't think it is anything to do with Osbornes knackers (incidentally did anyone see the repeated slow motion shot of Lallana's knackers on the Liverpool City game last night!) and more to do with we have a government that is essentially free to do what it likes at the moment due to the lack of a cohesive and credible opposition. If Labour can stop squabbling about things and actually think about the Country for a second rather than personal ideologies, we may all have a chance, otherwise we are getting a fairly good idea of what a dictatorship feels like.

Been reading about Mussolini at the moment and the manner in which he got to power, and consolidated, whilst those to the left bickered and procrastinated has some worrying parallels with the present situation.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 3, 2016, 13:30:49
On one hand Osborn needs to increase the tax take and pensions are prime picking ground. On the other hand the government need to seriously encourage retirement saving.

This 'pension ISA' has been on the cards for a while. It satisfies the treasury because it brings the tax take forward by about 40 years. For basic rate tax payers the change would be fairly neutral in the longer term, but higher and additional rate payers would be hit the most. It'd be a big change but not necessarily a bombshell.

A more worrying potential change is the removal of tax free cash. Again something that's been talked about for an age but no chancellor has ever had the balls to do it. We'll see if Osborn does.
The main reason taxing 'on the way in' (ie removing tax relief on contributions) is so much less attractive than taxing 'on the way out' is that the pensions saver loses 40 years of compounded investment gain on the tax relief.  This would kill pensions.  It's poisonous.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, March 3, 2016, 14:22:08
I personally don't think they'll do it. We're most likely to see a flat rate of relief of around 25%.

We'll have to wait and see what actually happens on the 16th though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Saturday, March 5, 2016, 08:58:22
No need to wait, my feelings were correct; it would appear George has "abandoned" his plans to reform pension tax relief.

Now would that be due to public pressure, or just political posturing what with the EU referendum pending?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, March 5, 2016, 09:20:40
It was a policy driven solely by a short term aspiration to cut the deficit, and completely at odds with other initiatives aimed at averting a pensions crisis.  Glad he's backed down.  It was wrong all along.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Saturday, March 5, 2016, 19:55:20
It was a policy driven solely by a short term aspiration to cut the deficit, and completely at odds with other initiatives aimed at averting a pensions crisis.  Glad he's backed down.  It was wrong all along.

He's backed down as he bottled it with the EU Referendum coming up.

What's really wrong is that people who can afford to pay £40k a year in to their pension fund can get up to 45% of it back as tax relief. Same for the lifetime £1.25m cap, which is more than the average person earns in their entire working career.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, March 10, 2016, 10:01:52
Bath & North East Somerset are having a referendum on having an elected mayor. Anyone live in Bristol and have a view on how it's worked?

I might go along and spoil my ballot, I've never done it before and think it might be fun. I'll write in "Scotland should be an independent nation" or something like that to confuse the counters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Thursday, March 10, 2016, 11:17:15
The position of mayor, someone who can get things done over and above the council infighting appealed to the locals and they voted in the independent as they were fed up with politicians and he was the best of an uninspiring bunch.

However, I think you'll find it hard to find anyone that thinks the current mayor has been anything other than a failure.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, March 12, 2016, 12:29:32
 See our erstwhile TEF member and Trust Board hopeful, Justin Tomlinson has been wheeled out to do the Tories dirty work on the disabled....literally, cutting their benefits for things like help with incontinence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Saturday, March 12, 2016, 12:51:56
See our erstwhile TEF member and Trust Board hopeful, Justin Tomlinson has been wheeled out to do the Tories dirty work on the disabled....literally, cutting their benefits for things like help with incontinence.
Speaking as an ex, old, Labour voter. Even I can see the disabled card as been abused by a lot of people. If we was starting a new welfare system, we wouldn't start from here that's for sure. Unfortunately, because of the wide spread abuse of the system a lot of innocence will be affected. For all those who have played the system, hang your head in shame.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, March 12, 2016, 12:52:47
Slashing a billion off already pitiful payments to make life more bearable for the disabled, kicking the most vulnerable in society, lovely. We're all in this together, eh Dave? Disgusting


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: red sheldon on Saturday, March 12, 2016, 14:29:41
For all those who have played the system, hang your head in shame.

I have to agree those Hedge Fund Managers, tax exiles, etc etc should be hanging their heads in shame, but I don't think they will even care


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Saturday, March 12, 2016, 14:46:24
Yes it's playing the system, but the system exists to be played.

Should average Joe be hanging his head in shame for using his ISA allowance and paying into a pension?

I'm not a hedge fund manager, but I certainly pay as little tax as possible by maximising the reliefs available to me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: red sheldon on Saturday, March 12, 2016, 15:37:30
I don't have a problem with people minimising their tax its what we would all do if we could.  Its up to the govt to have the balls to close any loopholes etc. but what I find barmy is the Govt getting help from the big accountancy firms in drawing up these regulations and laws, which just perpetuate these issues, and all of these people moaning about benefits cheats etc. When in my view its a drop in the ocean compared to ensuring that the big companies and seriously well off are made to pay what they should


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, March 18, 2016, 21:48:09
That odious turd IDS has resigned.  On a Friday night.  After voting for benefit cuts to the disabled he has decided thats a bit rich and resigned.

Political positioning?  Lets fuck over Osbournes leadership bid.  Im sure he'll be rewarded by the next leader.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, March 18, 2016, 21:54:18
Well the more cynical on Twitter are suggesting it's really posturing over the EU, but the text of the letter he's sent reads as a fairly damning indictment of the budget and Osbourne especially being unwilling to cut money paid to well off pensioners and cutting disability benefits instead. Either way, whatever his true purpose was, it's big news and hopefully will lead to some genuinely coherent opposition to what are truly mean spirited cuts.

It's just a shame the biggest opposition to the government now comes from within rather than the benches opposite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Friday, March 18, 2016, 22:08:11
To be fair, I think Osborne is doing a remarkable job of fucking up his leadership chances all on his own.

If only he was as good with numbers as he is at coming up with slogans.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, March 19, 2016, 00:24:04
That odious turd IDS has resigned.  On a Friday night.  After voting for benefit cuts to the disabled he has decided thats a bit rich and resigned.

Political positioning?  Lets fuck over Osbournes leadership bid.  Im sure he'll be rewarded by the next leader.

However, at least he has done the decent thing....unlike as far as I know Mr Tomlinson, who is Disabilities Minister, and more than happy to see the most disadvantaged in our "society" suffer.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, March 19, 2016, 19:13:16
However, at least he has done the decent thing....unlike as far as I know Mr Tomlinson, who is Disabilities Minister, and more than happy to see the most disadvantaged in our "society" suffer.
Can we please get away from any idea that IDS has done any manner of decent thing.... This has all to do with internal political fighting within the Tories, scoring points against Cameron and Osborne.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/government-to-struggle-on-without-duncan-smiths-warmth-and-charm-20160319107321

We could find the ridiculous situation in 2020 of two principal parties riven by internal fighting that seem incapable of acting for the good of the country and so tied up in their own bollocks that no one wants to vote for either, a Corbyn v. Boris v. Farage battle scares the life out of me......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, March 19, 2016, 19:47:46
There are few people I find more repulsive than IDS. His arse licking pal who is meant to represent Swindon must be crying into his Maggie Thatcher pillow now after publicly backing this disgusting  attack on the disabled.
Made an absolute tit of himself. As if being a Tory isn't bad enough. Cunt!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, March 19, 2016, 19:58:10
There are few people I find more repulsive than IDS. His arse licking pal who is meant to represent Swindon must be crying into his Maggie Thatcher pillow now after publicly backing this disgusting  attack on the disabled.
Made an absolute tit of himself. As if being a Tory isn't bad enough. Cunt!

Tomlinson should resign also, no ifs or buts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, March 19, 2016, 20:26:27
That odious turd IDS has resigned.  On a Friday night.  After voting for benefit cuts to the disabled he has decided thats a bit rich and resigned.

Political positioning?  Lets fuck over Osbournes leadership bid.  Im sure he'll be rewarded by the next leader.
Exactly. This is all about settling some scores with Cameron/Osbourne and earning himself a (Shadow?) Cabinet post when Johnson takes over. He's put Osbourne right out on a limb though - how big a shit do you have to be to have IDS publicly disavowing your policy as going too far? Interesting also to see IDS echoing  Corbyn's line from Thursday that targetting the disabled to pay for tax cuts for the well off is a political, not an economic, choice. He's proper gone for their legs, hasn't he?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, March 19, 2016, 20:28:14
a Corbyn v. Boris v. Farage battle scares the life out of me......
If that scares you, how does Putin, Trump and BJ all with their fingers on a nuclear button sound? Only need one more horseman there to make a full scale apocalypse, and that trio won't need any help.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Saturday, March 19, 2016, 22:30:06
If that scares you, how does Putin, Trump and BJ all with their fingers on a nuclear button sound? Only need one more horseman there to make a full scale apocalypse, and that trio won't need any help.

And heeeeeere's:

Kim Jong Un!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 20:04:04
I've mentioned before that politicians, and politics in general, bore me to tears.

But it is good to see Cameron squirming, the odious cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 20:14:03
I've mentioned before that politicians, and politics in general, bore me to tears.

But it is good to see Cameron squirming, the odious cunt.

If he's paid capital gains tax as he claims then it's a non issue, apparently going to publish his accounts next week. However all the idiots have already started the occupy London and protest groups on Facebook again against him, protests based on hearsay, conjecture and sensationalism... Brilliant. Always the same fucking idiots who protest about everything but don't actually contribute anything to the country but think it should be set up for them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 20:16:04
I think I may have expressed my views on Dave and his buddies a little too much on twitter and facebook so I may not bother with politics on here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 20:19:05
I think I may have expressed my views on Dave and his buddies a little too much on twitter and facebook so I may not bother with politics on here.

You just know you wont be able to resist.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 20:31:12
Oh ffs.  Look if these cunts want to lecture us on the morality of tax evasion which both Osbourne and Cameron have done then they better be squeaky clean.  If Camerons affairs are clean then he should have let us all know this a long time ago.  Instead he has issued 4 statements which have shifted day by day and preached that we are all in this together and must all tighten our belts. 

They've attacked the disabled.  They've attacked the poor.  They've visited austerity upon the most vulnerable in society whilst protecting their mates. They've conjured up a budget for the ages that lasted 3 days before they had to backtrack.  They are turning upon each other jostling to see who can succeed him.

You excuse me if I enjoy the cock juggling thundercunts discomfort.





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 20:35:47
Oh ffs.  Look if these cunts want to lecture us on the morality of tax evasion which both Osbourne and Cameron have done then they better be squeaky clean.  If Camerons affairs are clean then he should have let us all know this a long time ago.  Instead he has issued 4 statements which have shifted day by day and preached that we are all in this together and must all tighten our belts. 

They've attacked the disabled.  They've attacked the poor.  They've visited austerity upon the most vulnerable in society whilst protecting their mates. They've conjured up a budget for the ages that lasted 3 days before they had to backtrack.  They are turning upon each other jostling to see who can succeed him.

You excuse me if I enjoy the cock juggling thundercunts discomfort.





You forgot the bit about where he shagged a dead pig


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 20:37:47
Oh ffs.  Look if these cunts want to lecture us on the morality of tax evasion which both Osbourne and Cameron have done then they better be squeaky clean.  If Camerons affairs are clean then he should have let us all know this a long time ago.  Instead he has issued 4 statements which have shifted day by day and preached that we are all in this together and must all tighten our belts.  

They've attacked the disabled.  They've attacked the poor.  They've visited austerity upon the most vulnerable in society whilst protecting their mates. They've conjured up a budget for the ages that lasted 3 days before they had to backtrack.  They are turning upon each other jostling to see who can succeed him.

You excuse me if I enjoy the cock juggling thundercunts discomfort.




But the alternative is a party that is unelectable primarily due to their 'leader' .... Not exactly much choice in political arena at the moment, but hey civil servants run the country anyway!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 20:43:39
But the alternative is a party that is unelectable primarily due to their 'leader' .... Not exactly much choice in political arena at the moment, but hey civil servants run the country anyway!

Tu quoque.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 20:44:44
Oh ffs.  Look if these cunts want to lecture us on the morality of tax evasion which both Osbourne and Cameron have done then they better be squeaky clean.  If Camerons affairs are clean then he should have let us all know this a long time ago.  Instead he has issued 4 statements which have shifted day by day and preached that we are all in this together and must all tighten our belts.  

They've attacked the disabled.  They've attacked the poor.  They've visited austerity upon the most vulnerable in society whilst protecting their mates. They've conjured up a budget for the ages that lasted 3 days before they had to backtrack.  They are turning upon each other jostling to see who can succeed him.

You excuse me if I enjoy the cock juggling thundercunts discomfort.





 :clap: amen.


Fuck Cameron and fuck the Tory party. (This is not aimed at pigs)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 20:54:35
Tu quoque.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
I'm aware of the meaning...

But it's not wrong is it... You've got an odious crettin who just plays the political game or the alternative is an even more odious crettin who has policies that border on ludicrous and his own party don't even agree with.
If Cameron does get the boot we'd probably get lumbered with Boris fucking Johnson.  :suicide:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 21:04:15
There's always Tim Farron...

(You might remember the Lib Dems, but probably not)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 21:05:36
There's always Tim Farron...

(You might remember the Lib Dems, but probably not)
Sold their souls to the devil and back to square one....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 21:07:10
As much as I enjoy watching Cameron and Osbourne having a bit of a squirm, the latter seeming to make a habit of it recently, the real story on offshoring is well above them.  The really rich and the private equity firms.  Take Thames Water for example, public accounts already show that they funnel money via the Cayman Islands (the parent company loan them money for Capital works via this country thus enabling the subsidiary to offset interest payments against Corp Tax and then earn the profits offshore).  All legal, all available in the public domain.  We are talking amounts well over £500m per year here, not the £31.5k Cameron may have taken a little tax break from.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 21:14:19
But the alternative is a party that is unelectable primarily due to their 'leader' .... Not exactly much choice in political arena at the moment, but hey civil servants run the country anyway!

So unelectable he's closed a 10 point gap in 3 months, and that's before this week's shenanigans came out. The unelectable line is dead, i'm afraid.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 21:17:04
Corbyn seems pretty transparent whether you agree with him or not. Lowest mp claims for expenses too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 21:18:08
So unelectable he's closed a 10 point gap in 3 months, and that's before this week's shenanigans came out. The unelectable line is dead, i'm afraid.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/
The "he's unpopular within his own party" line is false too, he was elected as party leader with the biggest mandate of any party leader in the UK ever, and maintains that support.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 21:26:53
So unelectable he's closed a 10 point gap in 3 months, and that's before this week's shenanigans came out. The unelectable line is dead, i'm afraid.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/
Transparent or not he'll be nigh on 70 by the next election and I just don't see how his policies such as getting rid of our nuclear deterrent can be considered a good idea. Anyone whose policies also include renationalising the railway really has screw loose, the railways about 30 years behind the times because of British Rails management of it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, April 7, 2016, 23:07:37
Privatisation of the railways hasn't worked. As well as paying extortionate prices to use trains the British taxpayer is still funding them via their taxes. All this whilst fat cats take their cream of course.
With a growing population and gridlocked roads we need a public railway service more than ever. This should be for the benefit of its users only and not for profit in my opinion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 8, 2016, 00:23:49
Transparent or not he'll be nigh on 70 by the next election.

Churchill was 77 when he won in 1951.



Title: Re:
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 8, 2016, 07:13:56
Well this has all been kept rather quiet......

https://www.byline.com/column/51/article/950


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 8, 2016, 07:14:57
Churchill was 77 when he won in 1951.
Churchill v. Corbyn is an interesting comparison.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, April 8, 2016, 07:23:49
Transparent or not he'll be nigh on 70 by the next election and I just don't see how his policies such as getting rid of our nuclear deterrent can be considered a good idea. Anyone whose policies also include renationalising the railway really has screw loose, the railways about 30 years behind the times because of British Rails management of it!

Sorry to pick on you but more than 60% of the populace disagree with you on nationalisation of rail.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/05/11/why-do-people-support-rail-nationalisation/


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 8, 2016, 07:24:55
Privatisation of the railways hasn't worked. As well as paying extortionate prices to use trains the British taxpayer is still funding them via their taxes. All this whilst fat cats take their cream of course.
With a growing population and gridlocked roads we need a public railway service more than ever. This should be for the benefit of its users only and not for profit in my opinion.
But nationalisation didn't work before that, as shown by the shambles and underinvestment inherited on privatisation....

What it needs is almost moving to a 'not for profit' commercial structure led by management with private sector experience to allow it to be run on commercial grounds avoiding the wastage and inefficiently which always characterised nationalised industries. (Speaking as someone who has worked in two areas if the public sector both locally then nationally)


Title: Re:
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, April 8, 2016, 08:14:13
Well this has all been kept rather quiet......

https://www.byline.com/column/51/article/950

Interesting, and curious as you say as to why nothing has come out in the mainstream national media. I wonder what's holding them back...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, April 8, 2016, 08:18:33
The way that his PR team have handled this is a complete farce, but Cameron's really done nothing wrong.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Friday, April 8, 2016, 08:22:00
The way that his PR team have handled this is a complete farce, but Cameron's really done nothing wrong.

Well he's done nothing illegal... Not sure about wrong.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, April 8, 2016, 08:24:25
There is nothing "wrong" about holding an offshore based investment and paying all relevant taxes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, April 8, 2016, 08:26:29
He lied.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, April 8, 2016, 08:32:58
There is nothing "wrong" about holding an offshore based investment and paying all relevant taxes.

Well, Cameron himself was quite happy to call Jimmy Carr 'morally wrong' wasn't he? It's certainly been very poorly handled.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, April 8, 2016, 08:34:10
But nationalisation didn't work before that, as shown by the shambles and underinvestment inherited on privatisation....

What it needs is almost moving to a 'not for profit' commercial structure led by management with private sector experience to allow it to be run on commercial grounds avoiding the wastage and inefficiently which always characterised nationalised industries. (Speaking as someone who has worked in two areas if the public sector both locally then nationally)

Yet another common misconception.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/26/east-coast-mainline-why-privatise

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2714201/State-owned-East-Coast-Main-Line-gives-taxpayer-235m.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, April 8, 2016, 08:39:16
Well, Cameron himself was quite happy to call Jimmy Carr 'morally wrong' wasn't he? It's certainly been very poorly handled.

Carr, with the help of his accountant, intentionally put money into an offshore based tax avoidance scheme involving complicated loan agreements that bordered on tax evasion.

Cameron held units in an offshore investment which is about as vanilla as it gets. It's not a tax avoidance scheme.

The two are very different things.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 8, 2016, 08:53:42
Yet another common misconception.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/26/east-coast-mainline-why-privatise

But that in itself is another misconception, the taking back of East Coast into government control essentially tupe'ed all the commercial staff back into central control but allowed them to continue working as they had on a commercial footing, albeit under the umbrella of DOR. Remember the franchise only failed as National Express paid too much for it up front making it non-viable in the first place, there was no inherent fault with the franchise itself.

If anything it supports the point I was making that if a rail company under government control operates to commercial principles the model can work - although I remain unconvinced that it would work long term unless strict financial control is exercised to maintain efficiencies and not be used by government to create unnecessary jobs on silly terms just to create jobs to keep the unemployment rate down.

Finally East Coast was/is a lucrative trunk line with large business use, what works there isn't going to work on say Northern Rail which like many bus services needs government subsidy to even work, there is no size fits all whatever Jeremy may tell us all.

Equally I have no idea what to do about the steel industry, however I just don't see what Nationalisation will achieve apart from you and I as taxpayers covering the c.£1m loss a week that Port Talbot is making to keep people in jobs with no long term prospect of improvement, its not as if the Chinese are going to co-operate on global prices just to save our industry?

My opinions on the problems of nationalisation have been polarised by two conversations I have had this week; first was with a director of a former nationalised utility company who are having all manner of trouble as the majority of staff just do not seem to understand that in the private sector one doesn't have a blank cheque from government underwriting everything. They are trying to modernise working practices and no one will accept anything and he is tearing his hair out as the staff by their actions are basically hamstringing the whole company moving forward and actually risking their own jobs as they just don't get it - and to clarify the guy is not some capitalist beast, he is a long standing staff member with socialist sympathies who understands that they need to modernise to protect all their futures.

The second conversation was with a former colleague from British Waterways which went from government corporation to charity c.3 years ago. He was saying that from day one they have had it explained to them that without the supply of government money they need to be more sensible and commercially minded, however they have also embraced that outside government control they can borrow against assets to fund works and thus maintain and build their commercial business. Its a very different beast from when I was there when an engineering project that cost c.£280k was approved and undertaken on the business basis that it 'might' solve a problem - it didn't but with government funding it was no ones money so who cared!



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 8, 2016, 08:54:14
Carr, with the help of his accountant, intentionally put money into an offshore based tax avoidance scheme involving complicated loan agreements that bordered on tax evasion.

Cameron held units in an offshore investment which is about as vanilla as it gets. It's not a tax avoidance scheme.

The two are very different things.

Please don't let facts get into this conversation you will ruin all the fun being had on social media!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 8, 2016, 08:56:54
Interesting, and curious as you say as to why nothing has come out in the mainstream national media. I wonder what's holding them back...

I suspect that the fact that he is minister for DCMS and thus responsible for press regulation may have made certain editors loathe to rock the boat - especially amusing as the Mail are making a big deal about the celebrity threesome story being hidden by the courts (somewhat ridiculous as two minutes on line reveals who it is - I was surprised I must admit) whilst not reporting this one which is subject to no legal issue?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, April 8, 2016, 09:02:49
Carr, with the help of his accountant, intentionally put money into an offshore based tax avoidance scheme involving complicated loan agreements that bordered on tax evasion.

Cameron held units in an offshore investment which is about as vanilla as it gets. It's not a tax avoidance scheme.

The two are very different things.

They are indeed, and that would have been a reasonable argument to make. Saying that his tax affairs are private however, was a daft thing to do as it was always going to lead to more scrutiny. For what it's worth, I don't particularly like that this story has become about Cameron rather than the genuinely shady stuff that was going on to help countries like North Korea and Zimbabwe avoid international sanctions, but I can't say I feel much sympathy for DC.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Friday, April 8, 2016, 09:06:53
How much did Cameron inherit from his Father? - how much of that wealth was created through tax avoidance?

That is what the issue is for me.

He should pay the tax liability on any inheritance of wealth accumulated from stealing from the rest of us, which essentially is what tax avoidance is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: townforever on Friday, April 8, 2016, 09:25:22
Why are none of the Political leaders telling the public how they will stop this happening in the future ?

Why the labor party or the Lib Dems or the SNP, purposing how they would make offshore tax avoidance illegal ? rather than everyone is just clambering for cheap political points, rather than dealing with tightening up of the laws to improve the nation ?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 8, 2016, 09:31:18
Carr, with the help of his accountant, intentionally put money into an offshore based tax avoidance scheme involving complicated loan agreements that bordered on tax evasion.

Cameron held units in an offshore investment which is about as vanilla as it gets. It's not a tax avoidance scheme.
An offshore investment that would not have been as profitable (and hence not returned to him the same level of return on his investment) had it not been offshored to avoid paying UK corporation tax. That sounds like tax avoidance to me. There's also the moral avoidance of the way he's ducked and dived to try and hide this (and what else) with misleading and evasive answers. None of it illegal, all of it stinks to high heaven


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Friday, April 8, 2016, 09:40:08
There is nothing "wrong" about holding an offshore based investment and paying all relevant taxes.

How are yours going?  :D

There's plenty "wrong" with it. People don't do it because it's fun, they do it so they can AVOID paying TAX. As legal as it may be, it's questionable and for someone who has frequently talked about morals in this exact situation I'd say he's been a bit of a wrongun.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, April 8, 2016, 09:52:16
I'll rule myself out of being pm then. I'd absolutely use every legal means necessary to avoid paying tax.

couldn't give a fuck to be honest


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, April 8, 2016, 10:05:59
An offshore investment that would not have been as profitable (and hence not returned to him the same level of return on his investment) had it not been offshored to avoid paying UK corporation tax. That sounds like tax avoidance to me. There's also the moral avoidance of the way he's ducked and dived to try and hide this (and what else) with misleading and evasive answers. None of it illegal, all of it stinks to high heaven

The tax avoided by registering a fund overseas in minimal, even UK registered funds pay very little in corporation tax. It's all taxed in the hands of the investor anyway, yes the investor gains more because of gross roll up but they also consequently pay more tax.

I'm not defending the way Cameron avoided or didn't disclose the full facts of his affairs, but what he's done is an extremely legitimate form of tax planning.

There's plenty "wrong" with it. People don't do it because it's fun, they do it so they can AVOID paying TAX. As legal as it may be, it's questionable and for someone who has frequently talked about morals in this exact situation I'd say he's been a bit of a wrongun.

It's only questionable by a) people who don't really understand what it actually is that he's done because b) the media have blown things way out of proportion and compared it with other completely incomparable tax evasion schemes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 8, 2016, 10:25:09
Why are none of the Political leaders telling the public how they will stop this happening in the future ?

Why the labor party or the Lib Dems or the SNP, purposing how they would make offshore tax avoidance illegal ? rather than everyone is just clambering for cheap political points, rather than dealing with tightening up of the laws to improve the nation ?



Because none of them ever do anything, Labour banging on about bank regulation is a case in point, they had the chance to sort this between 1997 and 2008 and chose to do nothing, its very easy to make statements when you are not in power but conversely difficult to actually do anything when you actually have the power necessary to make real change. The Lib Dems discovered this the hard way when they had a manifesto that was written on an understanding that they were unlikely to gain power and thus have to deliver anything.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, April 8, 2016, 10:26:30
stealing from the rest of us, which essentially is what tax avoidance is.

On that basis everyone who saves in an ISA, permits charities to which they have donated to reclaim the basic rate tax  or who put additional contributions into their pensions because of the tax benefits is stealing from the rest of us.  There is nothing automatically wrong with tax avoidance, done as intended it is positively encouraged by the government as being beneficial to individuals and to society in general.

It becomes morally wrong when 'clever' individuals exploit the rules in order to avoid paying tax that they genuinely should pay.  e.g. paying their income tax free into a charitable foundation that then pays it back to them tax free via a circuitous route.

What Cameron did is what all of us do via our pension funds etc.  Offshore enables avoidance of corporation tax but the income we then get is taxable.  Whether the UK should be trying to block this avenue is a matter of opinion but based on what has come out to date, Cameron has done nothing more than tens of millions of us do, albeit that he is richer and hence the sums are larger.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, April 8, 2016, 10:27:42
How are yours going?  :D


they're going fine, as are yours


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 8, 2016, 10:29:53
An interesting summary of both sides of the argument... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35994283


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 8, 2016, 10:33:06
I'll rule myself out of being pm then. I'd absolutely use every legal means necessary to avoid paying tax.

couldn't give a fuck to be honest

Taxation is inevitable, but has to be seen as being fair...remember the mantra of the American colonists, "no taxation without representation" 

I just squirted some Fairy Liquid into the washing up bowl....I paid tax on that; fair enough we all do it would seem, but on closer scrutiny do the likes of Osborne and Cameron, because they set the rules and therefore can design ways around it.

Osborne wanted to put a tax on Cornish pasties. Why? Probably because it's the food of the poor.

It's the gap in fairness which is the problem....Tories believe it's fair enough that massive wealth accrued by just about any means should be exempt from taxation, because that way the benefits would filter down to the plebs, rather than as presently happens filter up. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, April 8, 2016, 10:36:24
But that in itself is another misconception, the taking back of East Coast into government control essentially tupe'ed all the commercial staff back into central control but allowed them to continue working as they had on a commercial footing, albeit under the umbrella of DOR. Remember the franchise only failed as National Express paid too much for it up front making it non-viable in the first place, there was no inherent fault with the franchise itself.

If anything it supports the point I was making that if a rail company under government control operates to commercial principles the model can work - although I remain unconvinced that it would work long term unless strict financial control is exercised to maintain efficiencies and not be used by government to create unnecessary jobs on silly terms just to create jobs to keep the unemployment rate down.

Finally East Coast was/is a lucrative trunk line with large business use, what works there isn't going to work on say Northern Rail which like many bus services needs government subsidy to even work, there is no size fits all whatever Jeremy may tell us all.

Equally I have no idea what to do about the steel industry, however I just don't see what Nationalisation will achieve apart from you and I as taxpayers covering the c.£1m loss a week that Port Talbot is making to keep people in jobs with no long term prospect of improvement, its not as if the Chinese are going to co-operate on global prices just to save our industry?

My opinions on the problems of nationalisation have been polarised by two conversations I have had this week; first was with a director of a former nationalised utility company who are having all manner of trouble as the majority of staff just do not seem to understand that in the private sector one doesn't have a blank cheque from government underwriting everything. They are trying to modernise working practices and no one will accept anything and he is tearing his hair out as the staff by their actions are basically hamstringing the whole company moving forward and actually risking their own jobs as they just don't get it - and to clarify the guy is not some capitalist beast, he is a long standing staff member with socialist sympathies who understands that they need to modernise to protect all their futures.

The second conversation was with a former colleague from British Waterways which went from government corporation to charity c.3 years ago. He was saying that from day one they have had it explained to them that without the supply of government money they need to be more sensible and commercially minded, however they have also embraced that outside government control they can borrow against assets to fund works and thus maintain and build their commercial business. Its a very different beast from when I was there when an engineering project that cost c.£280k was approved and undertaken on the business basis that it 'might' solve a problem - it didn't but with government funding it was no ones money so who cared!



Good response, thank you. I'd agree (being ex civil service) that there needs to be culture change, but I reject the idea that public sector workers just aren't as capable as those in the private sector. I genuinely believe the railways can be run efficiently by the people. All infrastructure should be publicly owned imo.

Can't speak about steel in detail because I have no experience, but if we can spend £50 billion propping up banks to save 1000 jobs, we can spend £1 billion propping up British steel to save 15,000 jobs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Friday, April 8, 2016, 11:24:31
You cannot compare the banking system with the steel industry- they are totally different.

The steel issues are bad enough (nationalisation not the answer though), however if the banking system had collapsed the entire economy would likely have gone with it so would have had even further reaching consequences.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 8, 2016, 12:03:56
Good response, thank you. I'd agree (being ex civil service) that there needs to be culture change, but I reject the idea that public sector workers just aren't as capable as those in the private sector. I genuinely believe the railways can be run efficiently by the people. All infrastructure should be publicly owned imo.


I may have put it badly there are good people in the public sector but if they are innovative thinkers they tend to bugger off to the private sector where the money is better - hence tax matters where anyone good at HMRC apparently buggers off to the private sector and as they know the sector are very good at advising clients to work round policy.

However from my experience the problem in much of the public sector is that those in senior positions have been there donkeys years (possibly as far back as the 70's) and only ever know the public sector way, thus at management level there is institutional inefficiency and little impetus for change. Equally when third parties come in at a senior level they tend to be of the age where they don't want to rock the boat and upset their pension potential so the problem just continues.

We tendered for some work from a NHS Trust last year and after the interview I had a chat with the guy who had got us involved and we had a conversation that essentially started with me saying 'I hear all this about the NHS being a shambles and inefficient is this really the case and if so why?' His answer reflected what I have based my opinion on above, namely that in the 1990's NHS Trusts came along with the idea that they should be run as businesses, but senior staff then and now tend to be NHS lifers and don't have the skills (or due to their age inclination to learn) to operate as businesses as the structure demands. It grates with me to see Labour wittering on about NHS funding as its the PFI which they exacerbated which has lumbered the Trusts with unsustainable debts?

Going forward I don't think nationalisation is a problem (and I would agree that infrastructure should be at worst under very close government regulation), however without fundamental root and branch culture change I fear that Corbyn et al just want to see us back at some rose tinted 1970's utopia. The world is very different from the period 1940-1970 and policy needs to reflect this. Sadly things like the NHS have become sacred cows that mean that dispute is the default setting where change is proposed. I have no idea what the solution is, but I suspect its somewhere in the middle between the NHS professionals position and the governments. From personal experience when you ask a profession how their sector should be reformed they don't tend to propose efficiencies or job losses which is human nature, therefore I must confess when I see Doctors and Teachers saying that the government are doing things all wrong I take it with a pinch of salt?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, April 8, 2016, 12:32:28
I havent read much back here.  There are people who know far more about this all than I do.  However, there is a massive case of lying and hypocrisy here.  You cannot lecture us on tax avoidance and then use methods to avoid tax or streamline your tax affairs so you dont pay much.

You cannot lie to the British public for 3 days straight before coming clean

You cannot say the purpose of the scheme was not to avoid UK tax when the prospectus of the scheme says the purpose of the scheme is to ensure it 'does not become resident in the united kingdom for united kingdom taxation purposes.'

You CAN claim that you didnt know this, but then if thats the case you haven't read your paperwork, you haven't done any fair due diligence and you are not fit to run a company let alone a country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 8, 2016, 12:53:20
I suspect that the fact that he is minister for DCMS and thus responsible for press regulation may have made certain editors loathe to rock the boat - especially amusing as the Mail are making a big deal about the celebrity threesome story being hidden by the courts (somewhat ridiculous as two minutes on line reveals who it is - I was surprised I must admit) whilst not reporting this one which is subject to no legal issue?
Oooh, who are they then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 8, 2016, 12:53:31
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CfhL9GxUIAAWZpS.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 8, 2016, 13:04:34
Oooh, who are they then?

Probably better not say on here as I don't know how it would affect the forum, but if you search on google for 'national enquirer celebrity news' it becomes very clear.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Friday, April 8, 2016, 21:04:50
Probably better not say on here as I don't know how it would affect the forum, but if you search on google for 'national enquirer celebrity news' it becomes very clear.....

Nah just type in "threesome gagging", you get some great stuff.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, April 8, 2016, 21:11:13
Oooh, who are they then?
I could furnish you with the information, but I may get a rocket, man!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, April 9, 2016, 08:03:34
this site makes a claim
http://www.2oceansvibe.com/2016/04/08/apparently-this-is-the-celebrity-in-that-threesome-scandal/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Saturday, April 9, 2016, 18:06:13
Elton John is an enigma, he is an amazing piano player, but he sucks on the organ  :D :D :D

(shamelessly stolen from the link above)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 11, 2016, 13:14:48
 So I received 4 copies of Cameron's EU referendum propaganda piece today....I live alone....apparently each one costs 34p of taxpayers money, before delivery costs. So that's £1.36 of mine and your money going straight into the recycle bin. I daresay Cameron and Osborne will have set up something to evade paying those taxes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 11, 2016, 13:17:36
So I received 4 copies of Cameron's EU referendum propaganda piece today....I live alone....apparently each one costs 34p of taxpayers money, before delivery costs. So that's £1.36 of mine and your money going straight into the recycle bin. I daresay Cameron and Osborne will have set up something to evade paying those taxes.

 :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint:

FWIW setting aside the whole moral issue of the PM not paying his taxes, much of the media now seems to be concentrating on the fact that he got money from his mother - he is from a rich family that is not the issue here and bleating on about £72k or whatever being a small amount of money to him is missing the point and allowing the whole point to be missed!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 11, 2016, 14:59:19
So Osborne publishes his tax statement which reveals he trousered about £120K netto from his sources of income last year paying about £72K in income tax. Fella's a pauper.  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 11, 2016, 15:11:41
So Osborne publishes his tax statement which reveals he trousered about £120K from his sources of income last year paying about £72K in income tax. Fella's a pauper.  :hmmm:

I don't recall being wealthy becoming a crime, sadly the whole tax thing seems to be getting mixed up in a new class war.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 11, 2016, 15:25:19
I don't recall being wealthy becoming a crime, sadly the whole tax thing seems to be getting mixed up in a new class war.....

Nothing wrong with politicians being called to account for their decisions....Buckland had to answer questions about his investments in film companies, that HMRC are investigating as vehicles for tax avoidance rather than making films, or Tomlinson being called to account over leaking data to Wonga, and receiving donatioins from Supermarine sponsored by Wonga.

The info should be out there for voters to decide upon...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Monday, April 11, 2016, 15:40:01
I don't recall being wealthy becoming a crime, sadly the whole tax thing seems to be getting mixed up in a new class war.....

Its not about a bloody class war.  Jesus the guy lied every day last week to us.  He's supposed to be leading the country and he lies to us.  He lectures about morality of Jimmy Carr and turns out surprise surprise he does the same.  How he can try to defend himself on this is a fucking disgrace.  I lie in my job and get found out I get fired.  This slimy piece of shit lies and lies and somehow its fine. 

Im proud my tax goes to pay for services in this country.  Do I think I pay too much, of course I do.  Dont we all.  But I dont seek to hide the money so I get to keep more.

Money warps your view of whats 'enough' so much.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 11, 2016, 16:01:40
Its not about a bloody class war.  Jesus the guy lied every day last week to us.  He's supposed to be leading the country and he lies to us.  He lectures about morality of Jimmy Carr and turns out surprise surprise he does the same.  How he can try to defend himself on this is a fucking disgrace.  I lie in my job and get found out I get fired.  This slimy piece of shit lies and lies and somehow its fine. 

Im proud my tax goes to pay for services in this country.  Do I think I pay too much, of course I do.  Dont we all.  But I dont seek to hide the money so I get to keep more.

Money warps your view of whats 'enough' so much.

I don't recall saying that his lying bullshit was not an issue, it is...

However the facts of the case seem to be getting lost in the bollocks much are making of the fact that a) he got given a load of cash from his mother and b) apparently it has been stated that £70k plus was a 'small amount', neither of which have anything to do with the main issues and instead seem to be concentrating on the fact that the wealthy are well wealthy!

Certain posters much more up on the complexities of tax have pointed out the stark differences between the Jimmy Carr case and Cameron so I won't go over them again.

Finally if you have such strong opinions against being lied to by PM's have you ever actually voted for a winning party, in my lifetime I cannot think of any PM who hasn't been outed whilst in office for being a flagrant bullshitter - sadly I think it just comes with the territory, hence why I don't trust any of them!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Monday, April 11, 2016, 16:22:02
You may be right that some are turning it into a class war.  For me its not a class issue.  The money he's been given is not something Ive ever mentioned, certainly not the stuff from his Mum.

Yeah I have voted for a winning party.  Yeah they are generally bullshitters but if you just meekly accept that all politicians are like this and its just the way it is then it will remain that way.  Standards of behaviour will never change.  I believe things can and will change.

You may same Im a dreamer.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 11, 2016, 16:46:50
  I believe things can and will change.

You may same Im a dreamer.....

Probably....when you get things like Douglas Hogg, who claimed £2200 of expenses provided by the taxpayer, so that he could have the moat cleaned around his manor house....Cameron elevated him to the Lords, where they complain about the low quality of gratis champagne on offer.

One of the strong arguments for Brexit, is the democratic deficit....at least with our politicians there is some measure of accountabilty. I'd imagine some of the practices within the EU, are truly shocking, yet I see no or little accountabilty or even debate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, April 11, 2016, 16:55:02
I never realised that the EU's penchant for levying VAT on as many things as possible is because it - as an organisation - receives 0.3% of all monies raised by that tax.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 11, 2016, 17:15:18
I never realised that the EU's penchant for levying VAT on as many things as possible is because it - as an organisation - receives 0.3% of all monies raised by that tax.

Well something has to pay for admin etc....

By its own bureaucracy's estimates, the EU loses 120 billion Euro annually to corruption of various types.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Monday, April 11, 2016, 18:01:19
The 'Politics of Envy' mantra trotted out robotically whenever someone questions Tory policy or record is quite an effective way of rail-roading conversations into another direction. More 'Dead Cat Strategy'?

I saw a report last week stating that George Osborne's trade target of £1 trillion by 2020 (the 'March of The Makers') is going to be missed quite spectacularly. Either he doesn't understand the landscape that he is operating in and so keeps on setting himself (and the country) up to fail, or he does get it but his austerity project is throttling the country's potential.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Monday, April 11, 2016, 18:47:22
I never realised that the EU's penchant for levying VAT on as many things as possible is because it - as an organisation - receives 0.3% of all monies raised by that tax.

VAT is an EU tax. When the government at the time signed us up to the Common Market, they had to start putting VAT on items.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, April 11, 2016, 21:09:32
Dennis Skinner telling it straight today in the commons. The bloke is a ledge!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 12, 2016, 08:04:51
Dennis Skinner telling it straight today in the commons. The bloke is a ledge!

My cynical all politicians are arseholes mind thinks, Dennis Skinner knows he will be thrown out if he says that, then everyone will say how brilliant he is, thus Dennis Skinner says that.... It may not be, but I always think showboating when I see such things.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, April 12, 2016, 08:43:05
It's just another example of the childish antics that happen anytime anything is debated in the chamber.

It's embrassing how they can never debate anything like grown adults within resorting to the general barage of shouting, interrupting and insults.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, April 12, 2016, 11:50:47
Dennis Skinner has made a lot of similar populist gestures over the years that have been cheered to the rafters.

Equally he has done bugger all throughout his illustrious career to actually physically improve the lot of the poor and the weak that he claims to care so much about.  Whether that says more about his cynicism or the gullibility of his fan club is a matter of opinion.   It is a common trait of the far left however; Benn, Hatton, Meacher the list goes on and on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 08:52:01
Skinner is just full of hot air and has never achieved diddly squat in his career just like most politicians from his party.

Be interesting to see if the lives of those in his constituency have actually improved income wise since he has been an MP? I strongly suspect not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 09:16:43
 He's a straight talking, honest man who tells it like it is.
He's also held his seat since 1970 so if he'd failed his constituents would have been removed don't you think ?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 09:35:51
Dennis Skinner has made a lot of similar populist gestures over the years that have been cheered to the rafters.

Equally he has done bugger all throughout his illustrious career to actually physically improve the lot of the poor and the weak that he claims to care so much about.  Whether that says more about his cynicism or the gullibility of his fan club is a matter of opinion.   It is a common trait of the far left however; Benn, Hatton, Meacher the list goes on and on.
How do you know that?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 09:57:08
Skinner is just full of hot air and has never achieved diddly squat in his career just like most politicians from his party.

Be interesting to see if the lives of those in his constituency have actually improved income wise since he has been an MP? I strongly suspect not.
He represents his constituents in the Commons at every sitting and has done  for the last 46 years.  I hardly think that's diddly squat.

He rarely claims expenses and even paid for his flat in London....he's probably the hardest working MP in Britain and is one of the last real spokesmen for the working classes and one of the few with integrity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 10:06:40
Plus he did 20 years in a mine (ie had an actual, proper job) before he was an MP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 12:30:35
Skinner's competence and effectiveness as an MP is not linked to what he has claimed in expenses!

It should be entirely linked to the living standards of his constituents during his tenure- they are obviously still poor as they still vote for him!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 15:26:21
Skinner's competence and effectiveness as an MP is not linked to what he has claimed in expenses!

It should be entirely linked to the living standards of his constituents during his tenure- they are obviously still poor as they still vote for him!

I'd suggest his constituents are happy with what he's tried to do, or he wouldn't have the position. Your comment is fucking bollocks, if the measure of a successful MP is to raise constituents living standards single handedly, what should be Gideon's measure?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 15:49:32
Hopefully his constituents' living standards will have raised since the 1970s and they have traded up from flared trousers, prawn cocktails and black and white tellies.

In 40 whole years he's not fiddled his expenses, shot his dog, been found dead with an orange in his mouth, rolled over poodle style to the USA or Europe, gone to prison for perjury. 

Not too shabby actually.  A coruscating and consistent advocate of his beliefs who, right or wrong,  has ADDED to the political process.

I happen to believe Dave is clean but, fair or unfair, you've just got to love the Dodgy Dave tag


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 15:55:49
Skinner's competence and effectiveness as an MP is not linked to what he has claimed in expenses!
Nobody said it was.

It should be entirely linked to the living standards of his constituents during his tenure- they are obviously still poor as they still vote for him!
Why? Are you trying to tell me that a Tory would have improved the living standards of his constituents? If so then your comment is in the 80% allocated for such shite in this forum......

In any case what makes you so sure that living standards of his constituents haven't improved in over 40 years?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 16:00:33
I'd suggest his constituents are happy with what he's tried to do, or he wouldn't have the position. Your comment is fucking bollocks, if the measure of a successful MP is to raise constituents living standards single handedly, what should be Gideon's measure?

I suspect that Gideon's constituents are very happy with what he is doing for them as MP, look at the route of HS2?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 16:10:25

In any case what makes you so sure that living standards of his constituents haven't improved in over 40 years?

Have you ever been to Bolsover?  ;)

I think everyone needs to calm down a little, there is no doubting that Skinner has been a competent MP who has reflected the views of his constituents for many years in the commons, he seems the last bastion of what a socialist MP should be.

However that doesn't remove the fact that many of his statements and actions have an air of showboating to his supporters, hence his statements knowing that he will get suspended for making them and the yearly Black Rod quips - the man is a showman who knows that his rebellious side is lapped up by his supporters, whilst also knowing that his actual power in parliament is very limited and thus he can essentially say what he likes.

Neither right or wrong and makes a refreshing change from the political bollocks which tars much parliamentary debate, however sadly I fear that his influence is very limited as even the Labour Party don't seem to have listened to him much over the years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 16:36:14
I suspect that Gideon's constituents are very happy with what he is doing for them as MP, look at the route of HS2?
I was talking about his position as Chancellor.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 18:25:17
The comments skinner makes are not that bad in comparison to the patronising insulting shit Cameron gets away with.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, April 14, 2016, 08:14:21
How do our current mp's compare to Skinner if we are taking about serving constituents and improvements. I wonder what the disabled people of the town think of Tomlinson in particular?

I'd say they both have overseen a decline in Swindon, with no signs of this ceasing. This has been coupled with a Tory council, which, you would have thought should have been working together in harmony to make things better.

 What will they do when there is nothing left for them to sell-give away-expect volunteers to run?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 14, 2016, 14:42:52
I wonder what the disabled people of the town think of Tomlinson in particular?

 A chum of mine who's disabled had a one to one meeting with Tomlinson before the budget, to try and explain to him why cutting funds to some of the most disadvantaged might not be a good idea. Apparently Tomlinson listened politely and then ran out his useful idiot line about, we're all in it together , savings need to made the deficit cut etc.

My mate described Tomlinson as backpfeifengesicht. (look it up)

When IDS resigned he'd changed his mind completely apparently.  Tomlinson or Skinner for local MP?  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, April 14, 2016, 14:56:48
The tories have all dutifully voted against an enquiry into the panama papers revelations.  My local lickspittle cameron acolyte Michele Donelan did as usual and voted with the party.  266 voted for and enquiry were blocked by 300 tories.

I wonder if that actually reflects the public desire on the subject?  I suspect not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 14, 2016, 15:15:36
The tories have all dutifully voted against an enquiry into the panama papers revelations.  My local lickspittle cameron acolyte Michele Donelan did as usual and voted with the party.  266 voted for and enquiry were blocked by 300 tories.

I wonder if that actually reflects the public desire on the subject?  I suspect not.

But unless we have a referendum on everything that is parliamentary politics, we only get to vote on matters every 5 years and then its only on vague promises in the manifesto. There has been plenty of chance to change to a more representative system but none of the parties want it when they are in power as it potentially will diminish that power... Hence Labour did fuck all to make the system more representative between 97-10 and the Tories did their best to avoid change when we had the referendum!

Its another reason I think that Nationalisation is a bit of a red herring, those industries and companies are not owned by you and I as we have little say in the manner in which they are managed as the only time we would get to achieve change (possibly) is every five years - otherwise we are just funding them with the management having little pressure to act efficiently!



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, April 14, 2016, 18:55:36
@Reg. Looked it up as it was new to me.
Reckon your mate had it right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Friday, April 15, 2016, 05:45:24
Skinner's competence and effectiveness as an MP is not linked to what he has claimed in expenses!

It should be entirely linked to the living standards of his constituents during his tenure- they are obviously still poor as they still vote for him!

You really should not publicly comment on politics as your ignorance is such I am embarrassed for you.

It is Government that sets economic and social policy and therefore influences the living standards of communities, not their constituency MP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 15, 2016, 08:27:20
You really should not publicly comment on politics as your ignorance is such I am embarrassed for you.

It is Government that sets economic and social policy and therefore influences the living standards of communities, not their constituency MP.

To be fair it also also somewhat ignorant to suggest that the constituency MP doesn't influence the living standards of communities (although many opposition MP's like to peddle this line as its a good excuse to cover up their own inadequacies or lack of activity). Having worked in two local authorities over the years, one with a very active MP who wanted to achieve change and one who didn't seem bothered the difference was marked in the degree of regeneration and change being achieved, equally its where being a reasonable MP comes into play working with the party in government even if you disagree on many matters to achieve change.

Sadly I think this is one area where Skinner will fall down with his posturing for his acolytes as he seems to piss off those in all parties to a certain degree and thus is not high on their list to work with.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, April 15, 2016, 13:53:18
Sadly I think this is one area where Skinner will fall down with his posturing for his acolytes as he seems to piss off those in all parties to a certain degree and thus is not high on their list to work with.
Spot on. 

Always speaking your mind and never compromising your principles sounds so much nobler than swallowing hard and horse-trading but that nobility comes at a cost, usually borne by other people  i.e. your family, your co-workers, your constituents.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, April 15, 2016, 18:54:09
and yet his constituents repeatedly and inconveniently elect the obdurate old sod. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, April 16, 2016, 10:00:29
In fairness, Bolsover has never returned anything other than a labour MP and Skinner recently gets around 50% of the vote against his predecessor's 80%

Skinner for me is the Labour version of Jacob Rees-Mogg, amusing character to have around but wouldn't want him as my local mp.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, April 16, 2016, 10:30:43
In fairness, Bolsover has never returned anything other than a labour MP and Skinner recently gets around 50% of the vote against his predecessor's 80%

Skinner for me is the Labour version of Jacob Rees-Mogg, amusing character to have around but wouldn't want him as my local mp.


Skinner and his bro, David, were involved in local politics, well before he went into Parliament.

Clay Cross near Chesterfield was his patch.  Clay Cross became symbolic of the struggle of the idea of localism v central government. 

It's very difficult in these times for us to know just how difficult and poverty ridden life was for most of the working classes through the 19th Century most of the 20th Century....but improvement was affected by collective action.

I was lucky to be a recipient of the benefits of the struggles of those many individuals, unheralded men amd women, and for me Skinner represents that struggle still.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, April 18, 2016, 22:47:21
I would classify myself as generally "pro-Europe" - given a compete lack of Nationalism.  However, despite most of the people arguing for getting out generally being complete nut jobs, it really is beginning to grate on me just how obnoxious the Remain campaign seems to be.  Economists can barely manage accurate forecasts for existing economic conditions for much more than 12 months as it is, so how on earth can people publically go so over the top about claims of life in 2030 for example?  For fucks sake, argue the principles, the regulatory framework, the concepts of trade etc.  It's like the pro campaign have gone all Daily Mail in reverse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Tuesday, April 19, 2016, 05:26:58
George Osborne:

Quote
"The conclusions could not be clearer. Britain would be permanently poorer if we left the EU to the tune of £4,300 for every household in the country. That's a fact everyone should think about"

FACT!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 19, 2016, 08:40:42

It's very difficult in these times for us to know just how difficult and poverty ridden life was for most of the working classes through the 19th Century most of the 20th Century....but improvement was affected by collective action.


To be fair to most of us, unlike you Reg we didn't live through it.....  ;) :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 19, 2016, 08:47:19
I would classify myself as generally "pro-Europe" - given a compete lack of Nationalism.  However, despite most of the people arguing for getting out generally being complete nut jobs, it really is beginning to grate on me just how obnoxious the Remain campaign seems to be.  Economists can barely manage accurate forecasts for existing economic conditions for much more than 12 months as it is, so how on earth can people publically go so over the top about claims of life in 2030 for example?  For fucks sake, argue the principles, the regulatory framework, the concepts of trade etc.  It's like the pro campaign have gone all Daily Mail in reverse.

Both sides deserve each other, I just wish we could have the thing now and get it over with, even if some manner of silver bullet appears most are so entrenched that they are not going to change their mind and instead just spend the next few months having ever more hypothetical and petty bickers about things.

I cannot deny I don't relish the irony of the out side pushing for the referendum and now falling out and possibly delaying the whole thing as certain groups have not been chosen as being 'official'.
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, April 19, 2016, 08:57:20
Both sides deserve each other, I just wish we could have the thing now and get it over with, even if some manner of silver bullet appears most are so entrenched that they are not going to change their mind and instead just spend the next few months having ever more hypothetical and petty bickers about things.

I cannot deny I don't relish the irony of the out side pushing for the referendum and now falling out and possibly delaying the whole thing as certain groups have not been chosen as being 'official'.
 

I think this referendum, so far has been brilliant, a chance for detailed arguments both for and against, and then voters can make up their own minds.

The personal issues are what happens in politics...it's often been said your real enemies are in your own party not the opposition.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Tuesday, April 19, 2016, 09:16:41
The biggest problem I see, as an apolitical layman, is that all they seem to be doing is throwing around scare tactics.

It'd be nice if they actually acted in our interests for once and gave us some proper information, beyond fear and hyperbole, that we can use to decide.

Then there's also the problem that when such hateful cunts as politicians are telling us something's good for us (namely the blue lot), I'm left thinking that if they're recommending something, then it must surely be good for them and their mates, because they certainly give no fucks about the general populace.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 19, 2016, 09:36:45
The biggest problem I see, as an apolitical layman, is that all they seem to be doing is throwing around scare tactics.


Nah get it right, its only the remain side who are throwing around scare tactics, Farage,Gove and Johnson keep telling us that so it must be true...

It does seem that the campaign is being driven and led (on both sides) by the most obnoxious slimy bastards and thus I suspect much of the population are struggling to engage.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, April 19, 2016, 09:45:00
The biggest problem I see, as an apolitical layman, is that all they seem to be doing is throwing around scare tactics.

Most people don't give too much thought to politics, so vote for what they perceive rightly or wrongly as self interest. If you can find a catchy slogan, or a decent ad, just like in retail, then you can pick up their votes.

Research has shown that ask people how they voted at the last election a couple of years down the line, and you get a different result, showing that people often forget or think they went a different way.

The issues in this referendum, are massivly complex....so the perception is it needs to be reduced to a couple of defining issues....remain, they'll be an economic hit from Brexit.....leave, a million Muslims will be waved in Merkel style, unless borders are taken back under control.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 19, 2016, 09:48:09

Research has shown that ask people how they voted at the last election a couple of years down the line, and you get a different result, showing that people often forget or think they went a different way.


Hence why apparently both in terms of exit polls, but also due to the fuss after the event no one voted Tory in the last election, yet they obtaining a working majority!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, April 19, 2016, 09:49:16
George Osborne:

FACT!

OST hasn't stated it as such, so it's not.

How in the world can any politician be allowed to get away with stating a FACT! about something in 2030, especially someone who was 6% out on his own forecast for 2016 about 6 years ago.  I'm almost tempted to vote Out, which is ludicrous.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 19, 2016, 09:58:16
And with his record in education Gove would know all about this... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36074853


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, April 19, 2016, 11:09:04
But someone else started it Sir.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Tuesday, April 19, 2016, 12:48:46
Does anyone know where there is an unbiased set of pros and cons of an in or out vote?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: A Gent Orange on Tuesday, April 19, 2016, 12:58:53
https://fullfact.org/ is a good starting point on if you are looking for something really detailed. Any short list would probably be heavily biased.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Tuesday, April 19, 2016, 16:32:08
https://fullfact.org/ is a good starting point on if you are looking for something really detailed. Any short list would probably be heavily biased.
Thank you. Useful.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 09:57:46
 So on the Queen's 90th birthday, Cameron wheels Obama into town, to tell us it's in the US interest, for UK. to stay in the EU. 

Well he would, after all it's Tory politicians who are keenest on TTIP, the method by which we'll have to open our services like the NHS and education to American corporations, giving them the legal right to veto any interfernce in the profit making motive.

Of course, no mention of this at the last election.

Which creates a rock and a hard place for the voter.... the rock: vote remain and the NHS will be thoroughly privatised out to the likes of United healthcare, banking regulations will change, and EU rules on such as genetic food modification and chemical additives will be binned to meet the less stringent US criteria.

The hard place: vote leave, and the loons on the right will want this also.  The difference being an in vote is for an Obama led fait accompli, and out vote at least gives the opportunity for rejecting TTIP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 10:08:57
So on the Queen's 90th birthday, Cameron wheels Obama into town, to tell us it's in the US interest, for UK. to stay in the EU. 

Well he would, after all it's Tory politicians who are keenest on TTIP, the method by which we'll have to open our services like the NHS and education to American corporations, giving them the legal right to veto any interfernce in the profit making motive.

Of course, no mention of this at the last election.

Which creates a rock and a hard place for the voter.... the rock: vote remain and the NHS will be thoroughly privatised out to the likes of United healthcare, banking regulations will change, and EU rules on such as genetic food modification and chemical additives will be binned to meet the less stringent US criteria.

The hard place: vote leave, and the loons on the right will want this also.  The difference being an in vote is for an Obama led fait accompli, and out vote at least gives the opportunity for rejecting TTIP.

Leaving could also lead to a gradual erosion of some of the more positive employment legislation affecting minimum hours, leave entitlement, ease of termination etc. Maybe going down the road of a more American way of how workers are treated.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 10:51:35
Leaving could also lead to a gradual erosion of some of the more positive employment legislation affecting minimum hours, leave entitlement, ease of termination etc. Maybe going down the road of a more American way of how workers are treated.

Being in the EU hasn't prevented zero hours contracts...or the exploitation of very cheap immigrant labour.

We managed to make legislation to improve the lot of workers before we were in the EU....it can be done again if people vote for it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 11:04:25
So on the Queen's 90th birthday, Cameron wheels Obama into town, to tell us it's in the US interest, for UK. to stay in the EU. 

Well he would, after all it's Tory politicians who are keenest on TTIP, the method by which we'll have to open our services like the NHS and education to American corporations, giving them the legal right to veto any interfernce in the profit making motive.

Of course, no mention of this at the last election.

Which creates a rock and a hard place for the voter.... the rock: vote remain and the NHS will be thoroughly privatised out to the likes of United healthcare, banking regulations will change, and EU rules on such as genetic food modification and chemical additives will be binned to meet the less stringent US criteria.

The hard place: vote leave, and the loons on the right will want this also.  The difference being an in vote is for an Obama led fait accompli, and out vote at least gives the opportunity for rejecting TTIP.

Good to see that one part of the campaigning is getting through with the scaremongering filtering through to the man in the street.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 11:33:17
Good to see that one part of the campaigning is getting through with the scaremongering filtering through to the man in the street.

I'm not sure what your point is, but if you consider my analysis wrong, perhaps you'd point out where.   


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 12:09:42
I'm not sure what your point is, but if you consider my analysis wrong, perhaps you'd point out where.   


You have made some beautiful hypothetical outcomes there as fact (are you in fact Michael Gove and the anti Tory stuff has been a double bluff  ;)), in my career its always been the case that the person making the statements however lurid provides the evidence to back it up so its more up to you than me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 12:10:40
You have made some beautiful hypothetical outcomes there as fact (are you in fact Michael Gove and the anti Tory stuff has been a double bluff  ;)), in my career its always been the case that the person making the statements however lurid provides the evidence to back it up so its more up to you than me.
I think Reg wants you to point out what bits are not fact though doesn't he


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 12:19:40
I've come to the conclusion that neither side know what the fuck will happen without a Crystal ball, so just peddle the best v worst case arguments for both side.

Furthermore I reckon the toss of a coin would be just as successful as letting us the public decide.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 12:21:40
I've come to the conclusion that neither side know what the fuck will happen without a Crystal ball, so just peddle the best v worst case arguments for both side.

Furthermore I reckon the toss of a coin would be just as successful as letting us the public decide.



This 100%
I'm gonna wait for mystic megs take on it before deciding how to vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 13:03:14
I think Reg wants you to point out what bits are not fact though doesn't he

I have neither the time nor inclination to do so, however as Reg has made all the statements I would expect him to have all the supporting stuff to hand?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 13:05:00
I have neither the time nor inclination to do so, however as Reg has made all the statements I would expect him to have all the supporting stuff to hand?
The supporting stuff for what though? You want the answers to something but won't say what you want the answers to


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 13:19:49
Oh fuck it whatever, I have had a day of people peddling bollocks to me at work and passing it off as fact as they say it is when it has as much evidence behind it as Powers financial shenanigans (and I normally expect better from Council's and their Barristers), thus I am a little pissed off about such matters and as Reg is usually a stickler for people supporting the points they make I merely thought it a little rich. However to play along....

Well he would, after all it's Tory politicians who are keenest on TTIP, the method by which we'll have to open our services like the NHS and education to American corporations, giving them the legal right to veto any interfernce in the profit making motive. most of the companies which operate our public services are already international anyway so not sure what is going to change - the privitisation horse royally fucked off in the 90's at the behest of those nasty tories yet Labour did nothing to change it between 97-10 so really is it going to be any different?

Of course, no mention of this at the last election. There was plenty of mention, just as its painfully dull no one took a blind bit of notice... it instead got lost in the major cock waving competition that politics have become - actually the Lib Dems dis mention it a bit but the majority merely blindly listened to the Tories and Labour

Which creates a rock and a hard place for the voter.... the rock: vote remain and the NHS will be thoroughly privatised out to the likes of United healthcare, banking regulations will change, and EU rules on such as genetic food modification and chemical additives will be binned to meet the less stringent US criteria. Is the NHS going to be privitised, seen no evidence of that in real life and suspect the Tories would never dare (although in the absence of any opposition now is the time to do it!), does banking regulation not need to change then again where is the evidence of these changes to banking regulation? So we are going to vote to stay in the EU but then choose to ignore certain rules if they don't suit us - you really are believing what Cameron et al are saying?

The hard place: vote leave, and the loons on the right will want this also.  The difference being an in vote is for an Obama led fait accompli, and out vote at least gives the opportunity for rejecting TTIP. So essentially we are fucked if we do ans fucked if we don't then - something most will agree on!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: thepeoplesgame on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 14:00:03
Is the NHS going to be privitised, seen no evidence of that in real life and suspect the Tories would never dare (although in the absence of any opposition now is the time to do it!)

http://www.nhsforsale.info/private-providers/spend-on-non-nhs-providers/non-nhs-spend-history.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 14:27:14
http://www.nhsforsale.info/private-providers/spend-on-non-nhs-providers/non-nhs-spend-history.html

I am actually quite shocked at the low percentage levels, although interestingly it seems to end in 10-11 and thus does not take account of the coalition or the Tory dictatorship, I wonder why they have failed to update it.

Also looking at the name and aim of the website the cynical part of me believes the data as much as I believe a word Jeremy Hunt says.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 14:38:57
To be honest is as useful as any of the other witterances that are coming out on both sides....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur7_jT-obmc


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 15:08:34


Of course, no mention of this at the last election. There was plenty of mention, just as its painfully dull no one took a blind bit of notice... it instead got lost in the major cock waving competition that politics have become - actually the Lib Dems dis mention it a bit but the majority merely blindly listened to the Tories and Labour

Tory manifesto....no mention of TTIP

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32302062

The hard place: vote leave, and the loons on the right will want this also.  The difference being an in vote is for an Obama led fait accompli, and out vote at least gives the opportunity for rejecting TTIP. So essentially we are fucked if we do ans fucked if we don't then - something most will agree on!


It's true that considering the least bad scenario has to be a factor in deciding which way to vote....the leaders of most of the political parties in the UK, have signed up to securing opt outs from TTIP for the NHS, that's Corbyn, Sturgeon, Farage, Bennett (Green), Plaid Cymru, DUP and Sinn Fein.

2 leaders didn't sign....Cameron and Farron


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 15:49:32

Of course, no mention of this at the last election. There was plenty of mention, just as its painfully dull no one took a blind bit of notice... it instead got lost in the major cock waving competition that politics have become - actually the Lib Dems dis mention it a bit but the majority merely blindly listened to the Tories and Labour

Tory manifesto....no mention of TTIP

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32302062

The hard place: vote leave, and the loons on the right will want this also.  The difference being an in vote is for an Obama led fait accompli, and out vote at least gives the opportunity for rejecting TTIP. So essentially we are fucked if we do ans fucked if we don't then - something most will agree on!


It's true that considering the least bad scenario has to be a factor in deciding which way to vote....the leaders of most of the political parties in the UK, have signed up to securing opt outs from TTIP for the NHS, that's Corbyn, Sturgeon, Farage, Bennett (Green), Plaid Cymru, DUP and Sinn Fein.

2 leaders didn't sign....Cameron and Farron

To be honest I have as much chance of wielding some political power as the majority of them, and as the LibDems learnt in 2010 one should be very careful what one says outside of government as it may come and bite you on the arse, when you actually have the opportunity to deliver something.

An alternative view http://www.libdemvoice.org/ttip-and-the-nhs-separating-fact-from-fiction-44112.html

Possibly as Farron dares to hold an alternate view and is strong in both terms of party mandate and local majority? FWIW I have now moved so that Farron is my constituency MP (not a reason why I moved I add) and they love him here and the local Council is strongly LibDem, No idea what they are actually going to achieve as they are suffering from almost complete silence at the moment.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 21, 2016, 15:55:33
To be honest I have as much chance of wielding some political power as the majority of them, and as the LibDems learnt in 2010 one should be very careful what one says outside of government as it may come and bite you on the arse, when you actually have the opportunity to deliver something.

An alternative view http://www.libdemvoice.org/ttip-and-the-nhs-separating-fact-from-fiction-44112.html

Possibly as Farron dares to hold an alternate view and is strong in both terms of party mandate and local majority? FWIW I have now moved so that Farron is my constituency MP (not a reason why I moved I add) and they love him here and the local Council is strongly LibDem, No idea what they are actually going to achieve as they are suffering from almost complete silence at the moment.

As regards the referendum, we know that Lib Dems are a pro EU party, so in a sense don't need to say anything, but it would be good to hear how far along the road of integration they're prepared to go and why they regard it as a good thing, right up to full blown US style US of Europe.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 26, 2016, 16:52:33
I know its the Guardian and thus I feel dirty for posting this (I promise I wont religiously believe everything they print going forward)  :D but this is nicely done

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Wednesday, April 27, 2016, 06:27:17
Yesterday was a rare day for Britain, a great day for Britain. One where the truth finally bubbled to the surface.

Working Class justice 1

Self serving Middle Class corruption 0

Now all that is left to do is discipline all the police officers who changed their evidence. Then prosecute the senior officers who were in charge. Dead or alive.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, April 27, 2016, 13:41:37
You cannot prosecute a dead man, unfortunately.  That's why they need to get on with criminal prosecutions immediately.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 27, 2016, 13:50:56
You cannot prosecute a dead man, unfortunately.  That's why they need to get on with criminal prosecutions immediately.

It makes rather a mockery of a fair trial if the defendant is dead and cannot respond to evidence presented in court.... trust me from the pieces on our local news yesterday any idea that this is the closure that was banded about is not the case, this has years to run yet!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 28, 2016, 12:12:07
Oh bloody hell, just concentrate on acting as a credible opposition!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36160135

Watching the video I suspect that John Mann would be deleting his account on here in a huff! Whatever one thinks of his stance he has made a bit of a tit of himself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, April 28, 2016, 12:27:54
To be honest I have as much chance of wielding some political power as the majority of them, and as the LibDems learnt in 2010 one should be very careful what one says outside of government as it may come and bite you on the arse, when you actually have the opportunity to deliver something

In their defence we can see now what a moderating influence the Lib Dems were on Dave and George.

As Frankie Boyle astutely observed, it shows how right wing our government is when Doctors can be seen as dangerous radicals.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 28, 2016, 13:10:55
In their defence we can see now what a moderating influence the Lib Dems were on Dave and George.

As Frankie Boyle astutely observed, it shows how right wing our government is when Doctors can be seen as dangerous radicals.

Frankie Boyle astutely observed that..... its been all over the net for about 6 months!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Thursday, April 28, 2016, 13:15:31
I see my old political party is trying the impossible and appear to be disappearing up its own rectum.
When you adopt the policies' of every minority you find yourselves in this situation.
I imagine their Must be many wards, cities and towns were not to be anti Semitic would be a lethal stance if you intend to be a member of parliament of those wards
When the Labour Party gets back to basics and fight for the rights of the working class and only the working class then it'll  always be thus.
Manner from heaven for the tories.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 28, 2016, 14:45:50
I see my old political party is trying the impossible and appear to be disappearing up its own rectum.
When you adopt the policies' of every minority you find yourselves in this situation.
I imagine their Must be many wards, cities and towns were not to be anti Semitic would be a lethal stance if you intend to be a member of parliament of those wards
When the Labour Party gets back to basics and fight for the rights of the working class and only the working class then it'll  always be thus.
Manner from heaven for the tories.

Manna it's manna. You raise some interesting points, however.

We're now having to front up to issues that historically were of little consequence in domestic politics.  It is very easy to get plunged into maelstrom of conflict, because you have to walk on eggshells.

So for example, I guess your referring to the suspension of an MP, Naz Shah and the axolotyl's greatest fan for alleged anti-Semitic views.  The term anti-Semitic though here is wrongly applied, because all the native peoples of the Middle East are Semitic, both Jews and Arabs.

Of course, people of sub continental origin are not Semitic, which would include Shah, who I'd guess isn't anti-Arab. 

Given the periodic Arabic onslaughts on the State of Israel, and Britain's role in its foundation, our position is allows likely to be viewed with suspicion.  Previously though, this was the stuff of the Foreign Office


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 28, 2016, 16:01:59
Manna it's manna. You raise some interesting points, however.

We're now having to front up to issues that historically were of little consequence in domestic politics.  It is very easy to get plunged into maelstrom of conflict, because you have to walk on eggshells.

So for example, I guess your referring to the suspension of an MP, Naz Shah and the axolotyl's greatest fan for alleged anti-Semitic views.  The term anti-Semitic though here is wrongly applied, because all the native peoples of the Middle East are Semitic, both Jews and Arabs.

Of course, people of sub continental origin are not Semitic, which would include Shah, who I'd guess isn't anti-Arab. 

Given the periodic Arabic onslaughts on the State of Israel, and Britain's role in its foundation, our position is allows likely to be viewed with suspicion.  Previously though, this was the stuff of the Foreign Office

I think its actually a lot simpler and less nuanced than that, it seems to boil down to whether if you disagree with the activities and foreign policy of the state of Israel you are by default anti-Semite an issue that the Labour Party is presently letting itself get very bogged down in?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 28, 2016, 17:26:42
I think its actually a lot simpler and less nuanced than that, it seems to boil down to whether if you disagree with the activities and foreign policy of the state of Israel you are by default anti-Semite an issue that the Labour Party is presently letting itself get very bogged down in?

As I tried to explain anti-Semite is an inappropriate term....anti-Zionist might be better, but Zionism, is something not followed by all Jews and has a relatively recent history. There are others who hold Zionist views who aren't Jews, like Rastas.

Simple it is not...



Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 28, 2016, 17:45:44
As I tried to explain anti-Semite is an inappropriate term....anti-Zionist might be better, but Zionism, is something not followed by all Jews and has a relatively recent history. There are others who hold Zionist views who aren't Jews, like Rastas.

Simple it is not...
Simple it is (although I accept my terminology was clunky) Labour seem to have been drawn into the position much appreciated on social media that any criticism of Israel as a state is obviously entirely to do with and directly linked to its principal religion, its the Flash v. GL5 thread but within the public domain within a political party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 28, 2016, 17:52:08
There was a chap on BBC Radio 5 a short while ago making the argument that if there was one 'black' state in the world (as there is one Jewish state), it would be completely unacceptable to perpetually criticise that state without being accused of racism.  You would be racist by default.

I found that argument profoundly disturbing.  The idea that you cannot criticise the state of Israel without, by default, being racist or anti-Semitic is absurd.  On that basis, any criticism of Israel would be off limits - simply by virtue of it being the sole 'Jewish' state.  I do not understand how any intelligent person could take that position.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, April 28, 2016, 18:14:37
It would be a good deal simpler if people in general used the correct terminology - which you set out very precisely, Reg.
In my view, a number of Jewish Zionists seek to extend the meaning of anti Semitic to include anti Zionism (as covered above) whilst narrowing its meaning to exclude semitic Arabs from the Semitic descriptor. Not sure if this makes me a racist or pedant or just a bit of a ....?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, April 28, 2016, 18:52:38
Arguably the more important political story today is that the CPS have requested extra time to look into electoral fraud committed by the Conservative party in a number of marginal constituencies in the run up to the election last year.  Including Chippenham.

But that doesnt seem to be as big a story as Ken Livingstone says something stupid which I thought had been done to death over the last 30 year.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 28, 2016, 19:27:18
Ken is due to speak at the Swindon Festival of Literature soon, I had him down as a balance to right wing nutjobs like Roger Scruton and AN Wilson....but maybe now Ken is joining them  :hmmm:

Vince Cable, is also putting in a shift, which should attract ther likes of Horlock and Ardiles.

Just for the record, I do think that the SFoL and all who sail in her, is a wonderful thing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Thursday, April 28, 2016, 22:22:56
Arguably the more important political story today is that the CPS have requested extra time to look into electoral fraud committed by the Conservative party in a number of marginal constituencies in the run up to the election last year.  Including Chippenham.

But that doesnt seem to be as big a story as Ken Livingstone says something stupid which I thought had been done to death over the last 30 year.

Stop clutching at straws. The Conservative party won the election. Move on
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, April 28, 2016, 22:29:38
Outlet red.

They won but they probably cheated.  Spending extra money in 30 constituencies that swung a majority in their favour.

The CPS are deciding if there is a case to answer.  Are you saying the CPS are clutching at straws?  Its not me thats not moving on, its the CPS.

Id say its a pretty big story.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, April 29, 2016, 08:02:01
Outlet red.

They won but they probably cheated.  Spending extra money in 30 constituencies that swung a majority in their favour.

Id say its a pretty big story.

Well it's clearly not a big story currently because no-one is focussing on it.

My antipathy to you raising it is that whenever this kind of story gets traction it encourages the self-delusional within the labour party to imagine that there was nothing wrong with the their message to the electorate, it was simply that the nasty tories cheated. 

That's bollocks.  The tories never win an election, they are simply handed it by default.  There are not enough people in this country with the selfish self-interest to vote positively for them.  What counts is whether the labour party chooses to win or lose the election.  Any tory majority comes from people voting for them out of despair or fear of the labour message. Every time that smokescreens such as "Tories cheating" or "the Murdoch press" become hot topics it gives credence to the absurd belief of the left that their message is the winning one if only they had a level playing field. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, April 29, 2016, 08:27:56
http://punthunt.uk/#

I'll just leave this here...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, April 29, 2016, 12:01:23
http://punthunt.uk/#

I'll just leave this here...



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, April 29, 2016, 12:12:18
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/jamiethon/hunt2_zpsxsxw6mo7.png) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jamiethon/media/hunt2_zpsxsxw6mo7.png.html)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, April 29, 2016, 12:12:44
I'm up to 5,289, noobs


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, April 29, 2016, 16:35:21
1,639.

This is great fun.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Friday, April 29, 2016, 17:10:36
Nice Barbie bookmark FH  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Friday, April 29, 2016, 17:14:56
Must be something slightly flawed with it. Out of 6 goes I got 3434 5 times?!

Edit: Then the following 4 I got 3434...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, April 29, 2016, 17:22:18
Nice Barbie bookmark FH  ;)

There's nothing quite like a bit of Barbie when you're at a loose end.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 12:56:59
All sorts of elections today. Only the PCC in Bath, which nobody really cares about so I've voted for the two with any experience in the area (one retired cop, one criminal barrister) rather than the bunch of political lifers and ex-councillors that were put up by most of the parties.

I note Sonic got a mention on the Adver's election live blog...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 12:58:22
I spoiled my police commissioner vote and went for green in the locals.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 13:24:53
All sorts of elections today. Only the PCC in Bath, which nobody really cares about so I've voted for the two with any experience in the area (one retired cop, one criminal barrister) rather than the bunch of political lifers and ex-councillors that were put up by most of the parties.

I note Sonic got a mention on the Adver's election live blog...

There is a retired copper up here which has led to much debate about the extent to which such a candidate will be independent or not?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 13:28:50
I spoiled my police commissioner vote and went for green in the locals.

I hope you have better luck with the Greens than we did in Lancaster, exposed to be a complete middle class one issue party who had no idea or comprehension of anything that didn't involve quiche knitting and trying to get all cars off the road - singularly failed to take any interest in the unemployment and deprivation of the estates in their ward and instead concentrated on keeping their middle class voters happy, so nothing to affect house prices seems to be key!

As we moved right on the cusp of the closing of the register we didn't get a vote up here although as the whole borough seems to be an entirely Lib Dem closed shop probably little point voting anyway!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 14:14:27
There is a retired copper up here which has led to much debate about the extent to which such a candidate will be independent or not?

Could say the same of any party candidate I guess, I can't claim to have done any real research into the candidates as the whole post seems pointless, but I figured he'd at least have a clue what he was doing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 14:24:39
I spoiled my police commissioner vote and went for green in the locals.

I suspect that there might be quite a bit of ACAC or similar entered on pc ballot papers today.  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 14:27:15
I have to choose to vote for the new Mayor of London and I am really struggling with the candidates!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 14:32:21
I have to choose to vote for the new Mayor of London and I am really struggling with the candidates!

I thought there was about a dozen standing. Got to be someone's whose ideas chime  :hmmm: surely?

Didn't the news come out recently that the Green candidate is being monitored by dodgy police security services, that would get my vote.

Sian Berry

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/28/police-anti-extremism-unit-monitoring-green-party-caroline-lucas-sian-berry


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 14:35:44
I thought there was about a dozen standing. Got to be someone's whose ideas chime  :hmmm: surely?

I've always considered myself a millinophiliac feline impressionist. If only there was a candidate who shared my passions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 14:44:41
I thought there was about a dozen standing. Got to be someone's whose ideas chime  :hmmm: surely?

Didn't the news come out recently that the Green candidate is being monitored by GCHQ and M15, that would get my vote.

There is a dozen. You've got the usual wackjobs (BNP, Britain First, Cannabis is safer than alcohol, One Love Party, Women's Equality Party, and George Galloway's Respect party) but in reality it's going to be between Goldsmith (Tory) and Khan (Labour). Interestingly the more the opposition play the Islamic Extremist card on Khan, the more popular he seems to get.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 15:42:08
I note Sonic got a mention on the Adver's election live blog...

I think you have me confused with Yeovil.

I'll be voting for Khan if only to stop Goldsmith.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 16:14:21
I'm voting Labour in South Swindon because they've promised to cancel the Tory plan to sell off Lydiard House.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 16:40:18
I think you have me confused with Yeovil.

I'll be voting for Khan if only to stop Goldsmith.

So I have, turns out the local elections aren't on in Norway...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 17:00:11
Local councils should all be non-political with an independent elected mayor.

The pool of good quality people to run things is so small that to dilute it even further by restricting it to members of a political party seems ridiculous.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 17:02:09
I have the added pleasure of voting for a mayor. A small number of stupid Bristolians (27% turn out) being smug enough to think we needed a similar set up to London.

I didn't vote for our current mayor in 2012 and after almost 4 years, he's done nothing to earn my vote in 2016.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 17:13:06
I'm voting Labour in South Swindon because they've promised to cancel the Tory plan to sell off Lydiard House.
Mike Bowden, who appeared in another thread on here, is involved in trying to stave off the sale.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 17:31:33
Mike Bowden, who appeared in another thread on here, is involved in trying to stave off the sale.

You may be mixing Mr Whippy up with....Mike Bawden, veteran Tory now ex councillor


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 17:33:42
I have the added pleasure of voting for a mayor. A small number of stupid Bristolians (27% turn out) being smug enough to think we needed a similar set up to London.

I didn't vote for our current mayor in 2012 and after almost 4 years, he's done nothing to earn my vote in 2016.

A friend of mine has been actively campaigning for Marvin for months.  The incumbent certainly seems a 'Marmite' candidate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 17:36:51
You may be mixing Mr Whippy up with....Mike Bawden, veteran Tory now ex councillor
No. I've met Mike Bowden a couple of times recently and he's definitely involved with Save Lydiard Park.

Unfortunately, I have also had dealings with Mike Bawden in the past. The cunt did me for £7000.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 17:38:46
A friend of mine has been actively campaigning for Marvin for months.  The incumbent certainly seems a 'Marmite' candidate.

Lots of people like George Ferguson. However, lots of people will come out to vote against him.

Still wouldn't surprise me with Ferguson pips Marv.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 18:34:27
I'm voting Labour in South Swindon because they've promised to cancel the Tory plan to sell off Lydiard House.

I voted Labour today purely because their candidate was the only one that had apparently bothered to publish his pledges about local issues (and I agreed with them) and has been canvassing in the area.

I couldn't find anything from the Tory or Lib Dem candidates apart from a very brief paragraph in the Advertiser and I'm not voting for them if I don't know what they stand for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Simon Pieman on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 19:31:27
I voted for Pajak, who also happens to live in my ward and was unsurprised to see he was the only candidate at the polling station when I turned up at 7:20 this morning.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 19:34:47
The Evening Standard is reporting that Sadiq Khan will win in London.

I'd cringe with embarrassment, to tell the truth, if Goldsmith was elected.  Already enough entitled, Old Etonians in a positions of influence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 20:43:39
I have not voted at all today, firstly the police commissioner position should not be a political one as it is now in Wiltshire.  I did not vote in the local elections as only one candidate bothered to knock on my door and that was the tory (he was with our mp Justin Tomlinson - minister for Wonga) and I politely told him I would not be voting for anybody - present day Labour are unelectable in my opinion and the tory would never get my vote.  The local labour candidate did push a very cheaply produced flyer through the door but that was not enough to convince me.  The Minister for Wonga did tell me he was voting OUT in the EU referendum - so we did agree on something!!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Thursday, May 5, 2016, 20:55:22
The Evening Standard is reporting that Sadiq Khan will win in London.

I'd cringe with embarrassment, to tell the truth, if Goldsmith was elected.  Already enough entitled, Old Etonians in a positions of influence.

Mayoral race is a bit like the US presidency. frying pan and fire. None of the above should landslide both if sense prevailed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Friday, May 6, 2016, 02:05:26
I voted Labour in Freshbrook & Lydiard, Lib Dem for PCC


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Friday, May 6, 2016, 07:50:38
I voted Labour in Freshbrook & Lydiard, Lib Dem for PCC
1 out of 2 for you then!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 6, 2016, 08:26:57
19% turnout in the Bath PCC election. That was worthwhile for everyone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 6, 2016, 09:03:23
That's probably a new record high nationwide tbf


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Simon Pieman on Friday, May 6, 2016, 09:47:58
There were around 3,500 spoiled ballot papers for the PCC election in Swindon


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, May 6, 2016, 11:27:52
One of those was inadvertent. I ticked the same candidate as first and second choice because I'm an idiot


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 6, 2016, 15:29:57
There were around 3,500 spoiled ballot papers for the PCC election in Swindon

Does not marking the paper at all count as a spoilt ballot? If so, I'm one too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Simon Pieman on Friday, May 6, 2016, 17:46:27
Does not marking the paper at all count as a spoilt ballot? If so, I'm one too.

If you put it in the box I guess so. The figure seems so high that I reckon if you didn't have the tory or labour as your second pick, they are counting a rejected ballot when it went to the second vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, May 6, 2016, 19:03:51
Cheating tories ;)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-36220568


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Saturday, May 7, 2016, 10:06:29
The candidates I voted for were all elected. This is a new feeling for me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Saturday, May 7, 2016, 21:53:55
The candidates I voted for were all elected. This is a new feeling for me.

You know what, you make a point: nearly 30 years in which I've voted in every pisspot election going and at last I've won one...even nasty tories hiding bundles of votes can't stop me!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Monday, May 9, 2016, 13:58:14
I see our glorious leader has said that world war three will break out if we Brexit.
He forgot to mention the plague of boils and every first son to be killed.
I really didn't think we still had it in us to cause so much mayhem.
Funny old world, wasn't it just a week ago that we were told nobody would talk to us because we are so insignificant? Or did I dream that?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Monday, May 9, 2016, 14:33:05
I see our glorious leader has said that world war three will break out if we Brexit.
He forgot to mention the plague of boils and every first son to be killed.
I really didn't think we still had it in us to cause so much mayhem.
Funny old world, wasn't it just a week ago that we were told nobody would talk to us because we are so insignificant? Or did I dream that?

No one said anything like that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: spacey on Monday, May 9, 2016, 17:09:12
I see our glorious leader has said that world war three will break out if we Brexit.
He forgot to mention the plague of boils and every first son to be killed.
I really didn't think we still had it in us to cause so much mayhem.
Funny old world, wasn't it just a week ago that we were told nobody would talk to us because we are so insignificant? Or did I dream that?

It's the zombie apocalypse that I worry about

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01630/dazed-and-plane_1630938i.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 10, 2016, 08:59:19
https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10153737876761939/

I am just not sure how this can happen, does the issue of conflict of interest not apply to politicians?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 16, 2016, 14:24:47
Well its a novel way to get party membership up, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36304722


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, June 6, 2016, 10:48:30
Is there any unbiased information on the in-out of Europe decision we face anywhere ?

I am undecided how to vote and am sick of the scaremongering from both sides. I want to make my decision on whatever is more likely either way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Monday, June 6, 2016, 10:52:52
I never listen to politicians. I'll make my own mind up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Monday, June 6, 2016, 10:54:02
Is there any unbiased information on the in-out of Europe decision we face anywhere ?

I am undecided how to vote and am sick of the scaremongering from both sides. I want to make my decision on whatever is more likely either way.
You won't get one mate. Someone will try to give you it,then someone will counter claim it then after that they will argue between themselves making you question why you bothered asking.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Monday, June 6, 2016, 10:55:32
It's funny how the concentration is all on the negative, be nice to hear what the positives/benefits are to remain in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 6, 2016, 11:04:06
Is there any unbiased information on the in-out of Europe decision we face anywhere ?

I am undecided how to vote and am sick of the scaremongering from both sides. I want to make my decision on whatever is more likely either way.

I have been reading this which is independent and seems to like silly things like evidence to support positions https://fullfact.org/

I don't know why they all insist on constantly putting figures to everything.

FWIW my simplistic interpretation, mainly based upon life and professional experience and discussions with people I know who work within the financial sector is that leaving will cause uncertainty and the markets/business/the public don't like uncertainty. This will potentially lead to a recession or at the very best stagnation (of indeterminable length) as everyone one from Starbucks to Goldman Sachs to you and I retrench and wait to see what happens avoiding spending unnecessary capital (investing in businesses, buying government bonds, buying a new washing machine) until we get an idea of what's going to happen, the speed of recovery will depend on how quickly the markets/business regains confidence and possibly how quickly trade agreements can be agreed with others - those in Europe are likely to feel somewhat betrayed and thus unlikely to be helpful (based not on what Osbourne may say but on experience of simple human nature).

So we leave, we have a self inflicted recession (of unknown length) and no real idea of what the future holds, now as someone with a young kid who will have to get a job some day and investments and pensions tied up with the financial markets that doesn't seem a very good idea, whilst the EU is not perfect much of the out campaign seems to relate to things that 'may' happen in the future, Turkey and other countries joining (repeat after me its not about immigration though!), trade agreements which are not signed and seem to have limited support in the EU anyway, the NHS which most of the leading out protagonists do not give a gnats backside about and needs reform anyway and seems to be led by the wealthy and asset rich that will not be particularly affected by any recession and actually often benefit from financial uncertainty. Equally it seems much of the out support comes from the older generation who I suspect are mortgage free, already secured and claiming their pension and will have kids who are well onto the career ladder and not starting out when this potential political and financial storm hits.

All of the above has been gathered by listening to the arguments in detail and ignoring the obvious blather coming from all sides, my simple question would be with so much uncertainty - why now. If the EU Armageddon projected by the outers comes to fruition well lets review it then and leave in 5-10 years if evidence supports that position, its just a once in a lifetime opportunity for the outers, and thus we have the chaos we are now enduring, whilst the whole country drifts anyway in the absence of a viable opposition.

Plus I am sorry to say I cannot see beyond the fact that this is all just an internal struggle within the Tory Party which Johnson has latched upon to unseat Cameron and Osbourne, so we could see an Autumn election if we vote out, so even more to fuel a recession and the position of a Tory Party who have inflicted recession/stagnation upon the Country (mainly for personal advancement and benefit) pitted against a Labour Party that seem devoid of ideas, have limited trust outside their hard core support and are engaging in their own internal appendage waving contest - future generations will really thank us for that!

 Its a shambles and has just revealed all the prejudices, factions and willingness to follow 'leaders' based on untruths and lies of the British people, its getting almost embarrassing and I dread to think what future historians will think of this?

Sorry for rambling, I have pretty much made a decision now so have given up listening really unless someone comes up with something that actually makes sense... The underhand nature of it all was really bought home to me by this http://leftfootforward.org/2016/06/labour-leave-is-funded-by-tory-donors-and-vote-leave-not-labour-and-trade-unions/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Monday, June 6, 2016, 11:10:47
Is there any unbiased information on the in-out of Europe decision we face anywhere ?

I am undecided how to vote and am sick of the scaremongering from both sides. I want to make my decision on whatever is more likely either way.
I think the underlying factor in all of this is that they genuinely don't know.

Its all guesswork with nobody actually knowing what the benefits/negatives will be if we leave vs staying how we are if we stay.

Better the devil you know than the devil you don't?

I too don't trust anything the politicians say, this whole campaign has been badly handled by both sides and I don't think the man on the treet will benefit financially either way if we stay in or get out.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Monday, June 6, 2016, 11:14:55
It's a pretty safe bet to say we'd be hit harder financially if we left though. For a time, anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, June 6, 2016, 11:28:03
Is there any unbiased information on the in-out of Europe decision we face anywhere ?

I am undecided how to vote and am sick of the scaremongering from both sides. I want to make my decision on whatever is more likely either way.

Martin Lewis of Money Saving Expert has written something relatively sane on the topic, basically agreeing with PV above that nobody genuinely knows and that anyone who tells you otherwise is a bit of a berk:

http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2016/06/05/how-to-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Monday, June 6, 2016, 11:39:38
Here the thing.  Im voting to remain.  The main reason Im voting to remain is that neither side has done a sodding thing to convince me otherwise.  Id rather stay with the status quo until both sides pull themselves together and stop acting like children.  They are both lying and should have their referendum taken away from them until the start behaving like adults.

We are being made to vote on something we are not qualified to make an informed decision about and we are not being given the information.  We are sorting out a spat between Eton schoolboys in the tory party. The position Boris has taken is self interest in extremis.  If it wasn't self interest then his swinging in the space of 1 month from pro to anti Europe would suggest he is a dangerous schizophrenic.  What next Boris? Is it going to be another side of your personality deciding we should all wear cock rings and fuck donuts?  Oh ok, well he's amusing isn't he so lets do that.   

Its pathetic.  I would refuse to vote but I know that the only people who would definitely vote are the frothing at the mouth knuckle draggers on both sides and Im afraid the leave campaign has more of those.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Monday, June 6, 2016, 11:42:04
I think the underlying factor in all of this is that they genuinely don't know.

Its all guesswork with nobody actually knowing what the benefits/negatives will be if we leave vs staying how we are if we stay.

Better the devil you know than the devil you don't?

I too don't trust anything the politicians say, this whole campaign has been badly handled by both sides and I don't think the man on the treet will benefit financially either way if we stay in or get out.



What if you don't know if the devil you know isn't the worst one? I'm going to vote out just to see. It's not as if in a couple of years we say "oops, we made a mistake, can we come back"? They'll say no.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Monday, June 6, 2016, 11:44:45
Here the thing.  Im voting to remain.  The main reason Im voting to remain is that neither side has done a sodding thing to convince me otherwise.  Id rather stay with the status quo until both sides pull themselves together and stop acting like children.  They are both lying and should have their referendum taken away from them until the start behaving like adults.

We are being made to vote on something we are not qualified to make an informed decision about and we are not being given the information.  We are sorting out a spat between Eton schoolboys in the tory party. The position Boris has taken is self interest in extremis.  If it wasn't self interest then his swinging in the space of 1 month from pro to anti Europe would suggest he is a dangerous schizophrenic.  What next Boris? Is it going to be another side of your personality deciding we should all wear cock rings and fuck donuts?  Oh ok, well he's amusing isn't he so lets do that.   

Its pathetic.  I would refuse to vote but I know that the only people who would definitely vote are the frothing at the mouth knuckle draggers on both sides and Im afraid the leave campaign has more of those.
I pretty much agree on all of that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, June 6, 2016, 11:46:39
Thanks for the responses chaps. Plenty for me to digest there. Still clear as mud ain't it though?

Ironically, a remain leaflet has dropped through my letterbox today with Martin Lewis on the front of it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, June 6, 2016, 11:49:53
Ironically, a remain leaflet has dropped through my letterbox today with Martin Lewis on the front of it.

Yeah, he wasn't happy about that at all, he talks about it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, June 6, 2016, 11:52:12
I'm steering towards a spoilt vote I think. Subject to change....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chubbs on Monday, June 6, 2016, 11:56:02
It's funny how the concentration is all on the negative, be nice to hear what the positives/benefits are to remain in.
This is what annoys me. All you seem to hear are both sides pointing out the negatives of the opposition but not the positives of their own.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, June 6, 2016, 12:00:10
To me its quite simple. I'm not listening to the politicians or looking at any figures because I don't trust either side. both sides are acting like complete morons and Saxondale's suggestion of having the referendum taken away is quite a good one until they can behave.
I just ask myself one question and its about control. Do I want to be controlled by Government which I can vote out or do I want to be controlled by 28 and possibly more Governments. I'd rather take the one so I'm out. There have been some good things come out of the EU and some bad things but there is no doubt they are headed to a United States of Europe with single army, single taxation etc etc. So my further worry is the green light this sends to the EU for future and what else they may do.  
I couldn't care less about immigration or the Monarchy - both are side issues for me


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, June 6, 2016, 12:01:15
Oh and I reckon we will vote to stay in by a minimum of 55-45 but more likely 60-40.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 6, 2016, 12:01:56
I'm steering towards a spoilt vote I think. Subject to change....
I am seriously considering voting to leave the UK considering the degree of sheer fuckwittedness, prejudice and blind allegiance being shown by many of the UK in this 'debate', its been embarrassing!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Monday, June 6, 2016, 12:02:59
The EU is anti-democratic. It is run by 27 Commissioners (not elected by the public), and it's MEP's have less power than our House of Lords.

They have failed to continually get their accounts signed off for 21 years, due to high levels of fraud.

Time to leave, so we can get rid of paying for MEP's and their hangers on, and make our MP's actually do some work for a change instead of saying 'I can't do anything about that because of EU law'.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 6, 2016, 12:08:56
but there is no doubt they are headed to a United States of Europe with single army,

Just to pick up one thing..... https://fullfact.org/europe/hunt-eu-army/

But you makes your own choices, that SHOULD be the whole point of a referendum (and the idea of another one if we stay in and then choose to look at military integration fills me with so much joy - assuming that every other EU state votes for it, I can just seem certain EU countries voting to share an army with Turkey!)

The fact that what we now have is a Tory leadership battle masquerading as a referendum is insulting to the population, although be interesting what a cabinet of Boris, Farage, IDS and Gove come up with?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Monday, June 6, 2016, 12:19:05
Oh and I reckon we will vote to stay in by a minimum of 55-45 but more likely 60-40.

Be closer than that if not the reverse. I don't think I've spoken to a person who's said remain in my day to day life, couple of undecideds that's about as good as I've come across for remain, and I reckon i've heard 20-30 opinions last couple of weeks. Small straw poll but heavily weighted one way, and most of those have come from work where we're within a ftse 100 company in Surrey which traditionally I would have thought would have Tory/remain leanings.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Monday, June 6, 2016, 12:20:05
This is the President of the EC totally bladdered whilst working :

http://heatst.com/uk/five-presidents-eus-jean-claude-juncker-drunk-in-public-slaps-leaders/

And Juncker has mentioned that there will be an EU army on his own Twitter account...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 6, 2016, 12:25:52
This is the President of the EC totally bladdered whilst working :

http://heatst.com/uk/five-presidents-eus-jean-claude-juncker-drunk-in-public-slaps-leaders/

And Juncker has mentioned that there will be an EU army on his own Twitter account...

Its hardly unbiased that is it, its written by Louise Mensch for gods sake....

As for the EU Army as stated above unless all countries vote in favour of it, plus a UK referendum also supports it, it isn't going to happen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Monday, June 6, 2016, 12:27:47
Be closer than that if not the reverse. I don't think I've spoken to a person who's said remain in my day to day life, couple of undecideds that's about as good as I've come across for remain, and I reckon i've heard 20-30 opinions last couple of weeks. Small straw poll but heavily weighted one way, and most of those have come from work where we're within a ftse 100 company in Surrey which traditionally I would have thought would have Tory/remain leanings.

The bookies don't get elections/referendums wrong these days, unlike pollsters.

Remain is heavy odds on favourite



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bewster on Monday, June 6, 2016, 12:28:03
What annoys me is that the "In" campaign seems to be all about how worse off we'll be financially if we leave.

What I want to know is if we leave how will services like the NHS, doctors, transport and public spending be affected ? What about access to schools ? The lack of housing ?

This is well worth a listen :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAq1q1_swyM&sns=fb


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Monday, June 6, 2016, 12:33:42
The bookies don't get elections/referendums wrong these days, unlike pollsters.

Remain is heavy odds on favourite



Stay is Man city, leave is Leicester City ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 6, 2016, 12:37:56
What annoys me is that the "In" campaign seems to be all about how worse off we'll be financially if we leave.

What I want to know is if we leave how will services like the NHS, doctors, transport and public spending be affected ? What about access to schools ? The lack of housing ?

This is well worth a listen :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAq1q1_swyM&sns=fb

Good grief that guy takes an age to get to the point - is he suggesting that if we leave the EU foreign companies should not be allowed to invest in the UK then?!

I agree about the lack of facts , however should it not be up to the Brexit side to tell us how things like the NHS etc will be when we leave as to stay is essentially retaining the Status Quo?

I can tell you that from professional knowledge the lack of housing in the UK has fuck all to do with the EU whatever Michael Gove may claim, which has made me immediately somewhat suspicious of other claims made?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, June 6, 2016, 12:39:44
Read a good stat yesterday. Apparently the amount of benefit money Brits living in other European countries claim is almost equal to the amount European immigrants are handed out in the UK


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 6, 2016, 12:46:12
Read a good stat yesterday. Apparently the amount of benefit money Brits living in other European countries claim is almost equal to the amount European immigrants are handed out in the UK

Just out of interest what was the source of that, just doesn't sound correct to me - although I suspect as the majority who go from the UK to Europe are elderly there may be some truth in it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 6, 2016, 12:50:42
The bookies don't get elections/referendums wrong these days, unlike pollsters.

Remain is heavy odds on favourite



I am not convinced, the public hate Cameron and Osborne and love Boris who seems to be able to say whatever comes into his head and it just gets lapped up so I think its going to be very close, be interesting to see what tactical voting also happens in Scotland as if they vote in and the wider UK votes out that will provide some good ammunition for another independence bun fight?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Monday, June 6, 2016, 13:27:17
This summary on the BBC website pretty much sums up what a dogs dinner we're being served.

For voters who are only just tuning into the EU referendum debate they might take one look and tune out again.

What they might see this morning - one side accusing the other of being a bunch of liars who you wouldn't trust to feed your cat, the other side claiming the others include bitter has-beens and a load of sneering patricians telling you they know best.

Political debate that, in some moments, isn't much more sophisticated than a bunch of school kids shouting "pants on fire" at each other in the playground.

Given this is one of the biggest choices we have made as a country for generations - I know that sounds trite but it is true - it's not exactly edifying to watch, and as happened during the wilder days of the Scottish referendum, this campaign is dabbling in a world where the truth is not a safe anchor.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Monday, June 6, 2016, 13:43:51
What annoys me is that the "In" campaign seems to be all about how worse off we'll be financially if we leave.

What I want to know is if we leave how will services like the NHS, doctors, transport and public spending be affected ? What about access to schools ? The lack of housing ?

This is well worth a listen :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAq1q1_swyM&sns=fb

Financially everything is irrelevant. Should we vote to exit we would remain in the Single Market for the foreseeable future (The SM and the EU are different). But it allows us to remove ourselves from the anti-democratic "ever closer political union" while preserving the economic benefits of a single market.

This a good place to start on how we can exit

http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf

And a shorter version here

http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcitlite.pdf



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, June 6, 2016, 14:08:27
Re Europe, maybe the best bet is to go with the bigger picture, we are Europeans at the end of the day, so as mentioned before, might be better to stick with devil you know.
If something needs changing, then the best way to change it is to agitate from within, not be on the outside looking in.
As for immigration, looks as if we are running at a net gain of 300,000 people per year.
This is surely something for the government of the day to adequately plan ahead for and sort out,
improve infrastructure, build more more schools and hospitals. It's not rocket science.

This "they are taking our jobs" argument is bollocks.
The average British attitude to work is not cut out for wiping shitty bums in a care home for example, or cleaning hospitals, plumbing, bullding, the list goes on.
If it was, then there would not be a demand for a migrant work force.







Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Monday, June 6, 2016, 14:13:22
David Mitchell sums it up for me:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/29/eu-referendum-parliament-leaders-david-cameron-david-mitchell


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 6, 2016, 14:18:45
David Mitchell sums it up for me:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/29/eu-referendum-parliament-leaders-david-cameron-david-mitchell

Interesting reading from the most soulless person in the media, however as we are having  a referendum doesn't really move us forward?  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, June 6, 2016, 15:03:53
Re Europe, maybe the best bet is to go with the bigger picture, we are Europeans at the end of the day, so as mentioned before, might be better to stick with devil you know.
If something needs changing, then the best way to change it is to agitate from within, not be on the outside looking in.
As for immigration, looks as if we are running at a net gain of 300,000 people per year.
This is surely something for the government of the day to adequately plan ahead for and sort out,
improve infrastructure, build more more schools and hospitals. It's not rocket science.

Both sides more or less agree that the EU is a corrupt, dysfunctional, supranational body with a democratic deficit....Remain in the form of Cameron, think we can live with that as long as certain things don't apply to us, like Eurozone and Schengen.

Cameron thinks his negotiated package, covered our arse on "ever greater union" which is why UK has been an expansion enthusiast, lobbying for the inclusion of the old Warsaw pact...sadly his Neville Chamberlain act, only exposed Brexit's point that the EU is beyond reform.

Danger lies in both camps....Remain rarely  mention where they see the EU heading....decisions are taken with little regard for the people of the EU but a lot of regard for bankers and elites. Brexit is headed up by some very dodgy types, who you might not want getting their hands on government.

I'm leaning towards an out vote, on the basis that the EU has plenty of history in ignoring plebicites, and an out vote might force some of the reforms that are sought by Remain....either way this looks like it's going to be close, so probably not sufficient to base a firm decision with the electorate so divided.

Might change my mnd in thre next fortnight mind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, June 6, 2016, 15:21:18
 As if by magic to back up my previous post, it looks like our "representatives" in our own Parliament are already plotting in the event of the wrong decision being made...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/06/pro-eu-mps-could-mount-guerrilla-campaign-to-reverse-brexit-decision



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, June 6, 2016, 16:05:00
I'm wondering if a very close exit verdict e.g. 1 or 2% might mean that the resulting negotiations are biased accordingly i.e. do the minimum required while retaining the majority of the less contentious stuff.
However, I do think that a majority for exit should make the positions of the key remain campaigners in the government untenable.
This could leave us with Boris, Gove & IDS.
Either way, the Bullingdon club would still be in charge.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 6, 2016, 16:11:53
I'm wondering if a very close exit verdict e.g. 1 or 2% might mean that the resulting negotiations are biased accordingly i.e. do the minimum required while retaining the majority of the less contentious stuff.
However, I do think that a majority for exit should make the positions of the key remain campaigners in the government untenable.
This could leave us with Boris, Gove & IDS.
Either way, the Bullingdon club would still be in charge.

As the main reason behind at the very least Johnson's involvement is a lunge for the leadership I think a cabinet including the three you mention is inevitable. The interesting thing will be what happens with Farage, he is unlikely to go quietly if his pet project is achieved and leads to a Johnson led administration, if he obtains a seat I would strongly suspect he will demand and obtain a cabinet seat, especially as many UKIP supporters are doing the dirty work and saying the more radical stuff that the Tories Brexiters will not?

If we have a close run thing, Cameron resigns and then if Johnson gets in, the rump of the moderate Tories could force through a vote of no confidence with the Labour MP's and we could have a rapid Corbyn v. Johnson election which would make interesting viewing.

I fear whatever the outcome turbulent times, uncertainty and financial instability will all be with us for the next 12-18 months!

To add a bit:

Its actually getting quite interesting if you are interested in politics, come year end we could have a split Labour Party (corbynista's v. 'New' Labour) and a split Tory party, (central inclined led by god knows who (Osborne??) v. right leaning Ukip similar right led by Johnson supported by Gove and IDS) If only the Lib Dems could get their house in some sort of order (tall ask!) we could potentially have a 5 horse race come next election?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Monday, June 6, 2016, 16:12:17
David Mitchell sums it up for me:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/29/eu-referendum-parliament-leaders-david-cameron-david-mitchell

I'm not a huge fan of referendums myself, particularly as Cameron has driven a coach and horses through the constitution to have one in June. It's for good reason referendums are banned in Germany.

However we can't trust Parliament either they are the ones that took us into the then EEC and passed the Maastricht Treaty on a complete and utter lie.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Monday, June 6, 2016, 17:48:18
NORWAY!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, June 6, 2016, 18:05:50
Not sure the "not in EU" Norwegian model would work for the UK with population of 65m v 5m for Norway.
The average working week of 33 hours would be good though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, June 6, 2016, 18:12:22
As the main reason behind at the very least Johnson's involvement is a lunge for the leadership I think a cabinet including the three you mention is inevitable. The interesting thing will be what happens with Farage, he is unlikely to go quietly if his pet project is achieved and leads to a Johnson led administration, if he obtains a seat I would strongly suspect he will demand and obtain a cabinet seat, especially as many UKIP supporters are doing the dirty work and saying the more radical stuff that the Tories Brexiters will not?

If we have a close run thing, Cameron resigns and then if Johnson gets in, the rump of the moderate Tories could force through a vote of no confidence with the Labour MP's and we could have a rapid Corbyn v. Johnson election which would make interesting viewing.

I fear whatever the outcome turbulent times, uncertainty and financial instability will all be with us for the next 12-18 months!

To add a bit:

Its actually getting quite interesting if you are interested in politics, come year end we could have a split Labour Party (corbynista's v. 'New' Labour) and a split Tory party, (central inclined led by god knows who (Osborne??) v. right leaning Ukip similar right led by Johnson supported by Gove and IDS) If only the Lib Dems could get their house in some sort of order (tall ask!) we could potentially have a 5 horse race come next election?

Yeah, definitely an opportunity for a Lib Dem revival and they could take their pick of either centre right, centre left or middle ground, as there is likely to be a political void in all of these areas.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, June 6, 2016, 19:03:08
Yeah, definitely an opportunity for a Lib Dem revival and they could take their pick of either centre right, centre left or middle ground, as there is likely to be a political void in all of these areas.

I tried to smoke some of our resident LibDemers out a while back, on the subject of the referendum. We all know Lib Dems politicians are pro Europe....it's an even bigger gravy train than the House of Lords. 

It would have been good to hear just how far down the United States of Europe line they'd be prepared to take, in order to keep the train on the tracks. Nobody on the Lib/Dem Remain side has made a case for the UK ceasing to be a country and becoming a region....they used to.

Given Horlock's analysis of the disintegration of "broad church" political parties into smaller entities....it does point to the need for PR.


Title: Re:
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 6, 2016, 19:21:57
At last the voice of reason...

https://youtu.be/t9_EhmfxHys


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Monday, June 6, 2016, 19:28:09
Ace


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, June 6, 2016, 19:44:32
Just out of interest what was the source of that, just doesn't sound correct to me - although I suspect as the majority who go from the UK to Europe are elderly there may be some truth in it!

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/britons-claiming-benefits-across-eu-outnumber-immigrants-getting-welfare-uk-1484091


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Monday, June 6, 2016, 19:47:12
Re Europe, maybe the best bet is to go with the bigger picture, we are Europeans at the end of the day, so as mentioned before, might be better to stick with devil you know.

Not if the Euro collapses.... which this guy predicts will happen in the next 3-5 years....and he was one who actually predicted the crash in 2006, unlike the IMF and the OECD...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuOIjK86c4o


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, June 6, 2016, 20:10:49
I've been leaning slightly towards Remain for some time, not because of any great love for the EU - which is a shambles - but because the alternative is mostly likely a far more free-market UK where big business is likely to have a bigger say.  The rights of the worker are not going to be top of Gove's or Johnson's priorities in a post-Brexit UK.  They'll be too busy cosying up to their corporate pals who, in turn, will be delighted with the easy ride they can look forward to in the UK.

I've been open to persuasion.  But if I'm honest, I've been under-whelmed by the Leave campaign in particular.  I was expecting more.  Their failure to spell out what a post-Brexit UK would look like will, I expect, have much the same effect as the SNP's failure in 2014 to spell out what a post-Independence Scotland would look like.  I'm with Chalkie: I can see a 55%-60% vote in favour of Remain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: bullethead on Monday, June 6, 2016, 20:59:36
I have read countless articles, listened to hours of debate and can honestly say that I still have no idea if we will be better off in or out so I will likely be voting remain for the following reasons...

There seem to be far more people I "like" in the remain camp, versus the likes of Gove and Farage on the Brexit side who make my blood boil.

My teenage kids are desperate for us to stay... a bit idealistic but they can't see why we can't all 'just be friends' and work together😂

Finally, in the absence of any convincing or believable argument on either side, it's better the devil you know.

That said, my mind could still get changed!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, June 6, 2016, 21:03:11
I've been leaning slightly towards Remain for some time, not because of any great love for the EU - which is a shambles - but because the alternative is mostly likely a far more free-market UK where big business is likely to have a bigger say.  The rights of the worker are not going to be top of Gove's or Johnson's priorities in a post-Brexit UK.  They'll be too busy cosying up to their corporate pals who, in turn, will be delighted with the easy ride they can look forward to in the UK.

I've been open to persuasion.  But if I'm honest, I've been under-whelmed by the Leave campaign in particular.  I was expecting more.  Their failure to spell out what a post-Brexit UK would look like will, I expect, have much the same effect as the SNP's failure in 2014 to spell out what a post-Independence Scotland would look like.  I'm with Chalkie: I can see a 55%-60% vote in favour of Remain.

I may be wrong here, but didn't you join the Lib Dems last May? I thought the LD's for many years operated on a policy of closer integration, including the Euro, until controversially dropping the Europhilia, not because they thought it a bad idea, but reaolising there were no votes in it.

You'd have thought the LibDems would be out there arguing the case for ever closer union on the back of Remain. Disappointing, as that at least have put the argument out there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Monday, June 6, 2016, 21:03:59


They have failed to continually get their accounts signed off for 21 years, due to high levels of fraud.

[/quote
This is a damning sentence. I didn't realise it has gone on so so long.
Would you be happy working for a company like that? Would you invest your hard earnt money in a company like that? If the answer is no, then why be happy to be ruled by a government like that?
Corruption is rife in the EU and worse, it's tolerated.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: A Gent Orange on Monday, June 6, 2016, 21:16:54
On the subject of accounts, this is worth reading. https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

FullFact are impartial fact-checkers paid for by voluntary contribs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, June 6, 2016, 21:31:54
I've had little choice to follow this in a sense as it's all over FB. I was expecting it to be a split among the knuckle-dragging "Britain is for British" types going for OUT, and the "Love everybody no matter what" types going for IN.

It's not been that at all. From what I can see there's no such correlation, and It seems to be about 50/50 .


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, June 6, 2016, 21:38:25
I may be wrong here, but didn't you join the Lib Dems last May? I thought the LD's for many years operated on a policy of closer integration, including the Euro, until controversially dropping the Europhilia, not because they thought it a bad idea, but reaolising there were no votes in it.

You'd have thought the LibDems would be out there arguing the case for ever closer union on the back of Remain. Disappointing, as that at least have put the argument out there.

I left again 12 months later.  Never engaged with it after joining.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Monday, June 6, 2016, 21:53:36
Voted out on the basis that George 'Silver spoon' Osborne and Cameron wanted me to stay in and the reporting by BBC has been biased IMO.

BUT....nobody knows what will happen.

A cricket ball is being thrown at a windscreen.

EU in say it will break and Brexit say it won't......truth is nobody will know until the ball is thrown.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Tuesday, June 7, 2016, 09:22:44


They have failed to continually get their accounts signed off for 21 years, due to high levels of fraud.

Would you be happy working for a company like that? Would you invest your hard earnt money in a company like that? If the answer is no, then why be happy to be ruled by a government like that?
Corruption is rife in the EU and worse, it's tolerated.

If the EU was a company, they would've been shut down by now...and they don't seem to care. They all have their noses in the trough, and as long as it continues they don't give a flying.

And I wouldn't be surprised Cameron has been offered a nice job in Brussels once he leaves as PM, as he was giving speeches last year saying that we would be successful out of the EU...and now he's saying that it'll be the end of the world.

The fact is most of the biggest economies in the world are not in the EU, and we need to look at a world view.

It is noticeable that 4 of the banks that helped caused the last economic crash are big remain backers. Not only that Goldman Sachs produced the report for the EU that said that Greece were able to join the Euro....and that has gone pretty well. The Euro will collapse...and it's a case of when, and how bad it is. You cannot continue putting sticky plasters onto a gushing wound...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Tuesday, June 7, 2016, 09:28:21
I've been open to persuasion.  But if I'm honest, I've been under-whelmed by the Leave campaign in particular.  I was expecting more.

Well I'm totally underwhelmed by the Remain campaign. All they do is produce scare stories after scare stories. At no point have they said 'This is the reason/s to Remain...'

At the moment, Leave have all the momentum. People can see Cameron is a busted flush, and they do not believe anything he says on the issue, as proved by the Sky debate last week, where the audience was laughing at him. Anytime he has been challenged on TV in the last week, he has been a disaster.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Tuesday, June 7, 2016, 09:42:45
Well I'm totally underwhelmed by the Remain campaign. All they do is produce scare stories after scare stories. At no point have they said 'This is the reason/s to Remain...'

At the moment, Leave have all the momentum. People can see Cameron is a busted flush, and they do not believe anything he says on the issue, as proved by the Sky debate last week, where the audience was laughing at him. Anytime he has been challenged on TV in the last week, he has been a disaster.

Really? Seems the opposite to me. Both sides have been scaremongering but Remain have produced plenty of reasons... Unless you're including that in the scaremongering.

I fucking hate agreeing with Cameron too. It's almost a shame that he seems to be the figurehead. Either way, neither side is coming out of this well. The most persuasive arguments I've seen so far come out of industry, particularly the tech industry (which I work in).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Tuesday, June 7, 2016, 10:34:48
As our Prime Minister i would like to hear what his intentions are if the majority vote to leave. I have heard all the arguments now and have more or less made my mind up. I am just concerned that Cameron has been concentrating on telling us what will happen if we leave instead of letting us know what he will do if we do leave.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 7, 2016, 10:50:44
Really? Seems the opposite to me. Both sides have been scaremongering but Remain have produced plenty of reasons... Unless you're including that in the scaremongering.

I fucking hate agreeing with Cameron too. It's almost a shame that he seems to be the figurehead. Either way, neither side is coming out of this well. The most persuasive arguments I've seen so far come out of industry, particularly the tech industry (which I work in).

At least the remain side seems to have some evidential base, each time brexit make a big statement it is quickly identified by those who know about the subject to be absolute baseless rubbish (see £350m to the EU as an example).

I wish Cameron and Osborne would just keep out of it as it seems to be morphing into a referendum on Cameron's leadership to many which is not really the issue but is being used by brexit to provoke rows which then allows people to get angry about Cameron.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Tuesday, June 7, 2016, 10:52:52
As our Prime Minister i would like to hear what his intentions are if the majority vote to leave. I have heard all the arguments now and have more or less made my mind up. I am just concerned that Cameron has been concentrating on telling us what will happen if we leave instead of letting us know what he will do if we do leave.

I don't think he will be PM for much longer if we leave.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, June 7, 2016, 10:53:47
I don't think he will be PM for much longer if we leave.

Yes, we're going to have Gove, Johnson and IDS spending loads of extra money on public services apparently. I for one completely believe that they've suddenly become big state socialists...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 7, 2016, 10:53:54
As our Prime Minister i would like to hear what his intentions are if the majority vote to leave. I have heard all the arguments now and have more or less made my mind up. I am just concerned that Cameron has been concentrating on telling us what will happen if we leave instead of letting us know what he will do if we do leave.

As he has staked everything on a remain outcome he will have to go, he will be a lame duck stabbed by many of his MP's and not sharing the opinions of the majority of the electorate, can you just image the first PMQ's afterwards?

In terms of succession I cannot see beyond a Osborne v. Johnson spat and as Osborne is tarred with the same brush it looks a shoe in for Boris who will have led the successful campaign, leading to a cabinet including Boris, Gove, IDS and possibly Farage to try and get us a good deal out of Europe....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Tuesday, June 7, 2016, 11:01:52
He should be saying this then. The whole outcome is more than just a EU issue if these are the knock on effects.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Tuesday, June 7, 2016, 11:04:31
As he has staked everything on a remain outcome he will have to go, he will be a lame duck stabbed by many of his MP's and not sharing the opinions of the majority of the electorate, can you just image the first PMQ's afterwards?

In terms of succession I cannot see beyond a Osborne v. Johnson spat and as Osborne is tarred with the same brush it looks a shoe in for Boris who will have led the successful campaign, leading to a cabinet including Boris, Gove, IDS and possibly Farage to try and get us a good deal out of Europe....

This is my entire issue with this.  We are being forced to have a referendum which I dont think we have been given any decent facts about purely so these cunts can play political empire building.

That nightmare line up of Boris, IDS and Gove is terrifying.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, June 7, 2016, 11:05:41
That nightmare line up of Boris, IDS and Gove is terrifying.

Just wait for Lord Farage of Bromley...

Quite seriously if Brexit happens I can see UKIP folding into the Conservative Party (as they'd then basically agree on most issues) and maybe some of the wetter Tories breaking away to form a centrist party of a sort. Could be fairly seismic on the political landscape. Worryingly the UKIP/Conservative uber party would pretty much dominate politics in England.

Anyone know any good jobs going in Scotland? I think I'd take my chances with Sturgeon...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Tuesday, June 7, 2016, 11:15:14
As he has staked everything on a remain outcome he will have to go, he will be a lame duck stabbed by many of his MP's and not sharing the opinions of the majority of the electorate, can you just image the first PMQ's afterwards?

In terms of succession I cannot see beyond a Osborne v. Johnson spat and as Osborne is tarred with the same brush it looks a shoe in for Boris who will have led the successful campaign, leading to a cabinet including Boris, Gove, IDS and possibly Farage to try and get us a good deal out of Europe....

He is leaving anyway, but could be a lame-duck PM even if he wins... the number of Tory MPs backing Brexit far exceeds his narrow majority.

Osborne is, seemingly, very unpopular within his own party too, so perhaps not a shoe-in if Remain wins.

After months and months of this government doing nothing at all, they may well be unable to do anything after the referendum either.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, June 7, 2016, 11:21:52
Teresa May is playing a great game to be next leader of the Tories, playing a "long ball" game and keeping her powder dry. A Brexiter siding with Remain in the quietest possible way.
I really don't get all the Farage hate. He's been pretty reasonable compared to some. You can actually like Europe but hate the EU. Its not that difficult.
Boris, IDS and Gove may be worrying but my guess is that they will not lead the Tories even if we do Brexit ( Teresa May ) and are they more worrying than Junker or any other unelected person.
I admire the idealists that suggest its better to be in than out on the basis you have a chance to reform the EU. Unfortunately, the EU have shown remarkable arrogance in that they know whats better for us and will plough on regardless because they know best.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 7, 2016, 11:37:05
Just wait for Lord Farage of Bromley...

Quite seriously if Brexit happens I can see UKIP folding into the Conservative Party (as they'd then basically agree on most issues) and maybe some of the wetter Tories breaking away to form a centrist party of a sort. Could be fairly seismic on the political landscape. Worryingly the UKIP/Conservative uber party would pretty much dominate politics in England.

Anyone know any good jobs going in Scotland? I think I'd take my chances with Sturgeon...

You may joke, but if Nigel gets what he has been banging on about for years and Boris gets the top job off the back of it Nige is going to want something in return... Foreign Secretary??


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 7, 2016, 11:45:54
I left again 12 months later.  Never engaged with it after joining.

Wasn't just me then, there didn't seem to be any coherent plan to actually do anything or move forward, they had just retrenched to a small protest party like the Greens.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 7, 2016, 11:48:32
Just wait for Lord Farage of Bromley...

Quite seriously if Brexit happens I can see UKIP folding into the Conservative Party (as they'd then basically agree on most issues) and maybe some of the wetter Tories breaking away to form a centrist party of a sort. Could be fairly seismic on the political landscape. Worryingly the UKIP/Conservative uber party would pretty much dominate politics in England.

Anyone know any good jobs going in Scotland? I think I'd take my chances with Sturgeon...

As a wise bloke (well me actually) said 2-3 pages back we could have a 5 horse race come the next election which could be sooner than you think as either way (Cameron stays or goes) there will be enough pissed off members with the Labour Party to achieve a vote of no confidence and thus force an election?

A Johnson v. Corbyn fight could be interesting viewing....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Tuesday, June 7, 2016, 12:35:55
Just wait for Lord Farage of Bromley...

Quite seriously if Brexit happens I can see UKIP folding into the Conservative Party (as they'd then basically agree on most issues) and maybe some of the wetter Tories breaking away to form a centrist party of a sort. Could be fairly seismic on the political landscape. Worryingly the UKIP/Conservative uber party would pretty much dominate politics in England.

Anyone know any good jobs going in Scotland? I think I'd take my chances with Sturgeon...

House prices are dirt cheap up there at the moment to be fair!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, June 12, 2016, 17:13:31
I've decided I'm voting to leave. Taken me a while to come to this decision but my mind is made up now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Sunday, June 12, 2016, 17:16:25
What prompted it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, June 12, 2016, 17:26:09
Had a chat with a fella on the leave stall in town yesterday which cemented my decision.

I don't think we are getting much out of the current arrangement so want to see what happens if we leave really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Sunday, June 12, 2016, 22:52:14
It's a shame there isn't an ignore option in this pathetic debate.  If I could be bothered, I'd probably still vote to stay (for many reasons that aren't being debated, and for which I know I am in a minority anyway), but as I'm leaving the country anyway, probably best to let others decide.  Given the general feeling in the country, we should vote to leave (nobody is really pro Europe in the way it needs them to be), see how it goes for a bit and then join the queue again in the future if it all turns to shit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Sunday, June 12, 2016, 23:22:19
I reckon the last 2 posts sum it up for most, me included. No idea what will happen, but I'll be a leave and nothing will change it now. I've not spoken to anyone on stalls in the high street, but the only one's we've had where I live are leave campaigners, not a stay in sight, think the bookies have this wrong even more as days pass, time to get down there, and get some 6-1 action or whatever it is tomorrow.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Monday, June 13, 2016, 09:07:47
I'd probably vote leave if it wasn't for the fact that I'm terrified what this government would do without the constraints Europe imposes on them


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Monday, June 13, 2016, 09:31:49
I don't quite understand the conclusions that some people are reaching. To me there isn't enough evidence that we will be better off out of Europe. Change for the sake of change doesn't seem a good idea to me. Surely, a close vote, staying in, with the threat of another referendum in say 5 years gives us the opportunity to go back and negotiate a better deal. Maybe then we can get some proper facts and figures and plans of what we'd do outside of Europe so that we could do a proper comparison and make an informed choice......But what do I know!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Monday, June 13, 2016, 09:37:20
Had a chat with a fella on the leave stall in town yesterday which cemented my decision.

I don't think we are getting much out of the current arrangement so want to see what happens if we leave really.

I'm not the EU's biggest fan but we do get a lot from them. We'll certainly get a lot less if we leave... I've yet to see anyone from Leave say anything even remotely tangible to counter that.

I think it's best summed up by Farage's reaction to the pound weakening. "So what?". Seriously!?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, June 13, 2016, 09:38:19
If the vote is anywhere in 52:48 to 48:52 territory, the aftermath will be very ugly.  In those circumstances, I simply cannot see the losing side standing down immediately.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Monday, June 13, 2016, 09:45:33
If the vote is anywhere in 52:48 to 48:52 territory, the aftermath will be very ugly.  In those circumstances, I simply cannot see the losing side standing down immediately.

Even if we leave it's gonna be a horrifically long, painful, drawn out process in which the Tory leadership will be up for grabs and the rest of us suffer with the in-fighting and the recession. It's just not worth it.

Some people would see Cameron getting booted as a good thing.... Until the realisation hits that he's not the worst of the tory party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Monday, June 13, 2016, 09:46:05
Pollsters have Brexit winning, whilst the Bookies have Remain (quite comfortably too I would say).

However, the odds on Brexit have shortened noticably in the last 24 hours (roughly 2.5 down from 3.5).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, June 13, 2016, 09:59:49
I can't honestly say I have many strong positive feelings towards the EU, but the political fallout of Brexit would almost certainly be Boris Johnson as PM with Gove, IDS and possibly Farage in high ranking positions, which is as strong an argument for remain as any I've seen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 13, 2016, 10:11:24
Even if we leave it's gonna be a horrifically long, painful, drawn out process in which the Tory leadership will be up for grabs and the rest of us suffer with the in-fighting and the recession. It's just not worth it.

Some people would see Cameron getting booted as a good thing.... Until the realisation hits that he's not the worst of the tory party.

If we trigger an aspiration to leave there is immediately a two year long consultation period within the EU, so that's two years of uncertainty, under investment and likely recession - even before any ideas of negotiating trade agreements with an EU who see us as a bad leaver and will want to make an example to stop anyone else getting the same idea?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Monday, June 13, 2016, 10:16:18
I don't think we are getting much out of the current arrangement so want to see what happens if we leave really.

This is the way I've been leaning. I don't think I'll actually vote as I'm ignorant and apothetic but I don't see anything particularly good currently happening for the average man-on-the-street, so I think big business, the political class, and their mates, could do with a bit of a shake-up to their system.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Monday, June 13, 2016, 10:20:08
And regarding recession, have we not been in a recession and under austerity measures since the bankers slapped 12 inches up us without protection or lube?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, June 13, 2016, 10:28:59
When I lived in Ireland they were due to have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. When it became apparent the Irish people would vote against, the referendum was dropped.

This is a direct quote from Giscard d'Estaing:

"Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly" ... "All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way." 

If that's not a reason to reject the EU I don't know what is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Monday, June 13, 2016, 10:38:12
And regarding recession, have we not been in a recession and under austerity measures since the bankers slapped 12 inches up us without protection or lube?

And 4 of the major Remain backers, are banks like JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs, which helped cause it in the first place.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Monday, June 13, 2016, 10:44:47
When I lived in Ireland they were due to have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. When it became apparent the Irish people would vote against, the referendum was dropped.


Well we were promised a referendum on one of the EU treaties about 10 years ago, but when it was rejected by France and Holland, the EU just renamed the treaty, and Gordon Brown signed it anyway, without calling a referendum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 13, 2016, 10:47:17
And regarding recession, have we not been in a recession and under austerity measures since the bankers slapped 12 inches up us without protection or lube?

We haven't been in recession for some time but I think things are fairly precarious, as for austerity that's more of a Tory ideological thing and leaving the EU is unlikely to make the incoming Tory leadership look at things any differently?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 13, 2016, 10:51:11
And 4 of the major Remain backers, are banks like JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs, which helped cause it in the first place.

Indeed but as the brexit campaign is being heavily backed by the media barons of the right (Rothermere - Mail, Barclays, Torygraph, Murdoch, Sun/Times, Dirty Desmond - Express) who all hate the idea of more press regulation and all tend to live aboard with companies registered abroad for tax evasion purposes its really six and two threes, Murdoch has previously admitted that the only reason he supports Brexit is because Westminster will do what he tells them but Brussels won't! I am not keen on a country being essentially managed by people who are neither resident nor tax payers here?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 13, 2016, 10:52:33
When I lived in Ireland they were due to have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. When it became apparent the Irish people would vote against, the referendum was dropped.

This is a direct quote from Giscard d'Estaing:

"Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly" ... "All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way."

If that's not a reason to reject the EU I don't know what is.

It seemed to be suggested over the weekend that if we vote to leave the two year consultation period could see various further concessions from Europe and thus lead to another referendum in two years time?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, June 13, 2016, 10:53:53
I was voting out, but am now leaning back to in.

My reasoning goes something like this.....the main reason for the out vote is to try and reduce immigration, which the average punter thinks had gone too far.  The problem with that is 2 fold, firstly non EU immigration has nothing to do with the EU, secondly if we sign up for a Norway Swiss style agreement, you still have free movement.

Therefore people will be voting for something they aren't going to get...

The EU is a basket case, which needs serious reform, if it collapses, it won't be good for us even if we're out, so probably better on balance to stay in and try and affect change that way...

I may change my mind again


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, June 13, 2016, 11:18:23
We haven't been in recession for some time but I think things are fairly precarious, as for austerity that's more of a Tory ideological thing and leaving the EU is unlikely to make the incoming Tory leadership look at things any differently?

TBF it isn't....it's a bankers thing. The ECB imposed plenty of austerity on Greece.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Monday, June 13, 2016, 11:43:52
I seriously think the whole thing is wrong.  The reasons behind the referendum are nothing to do with Europe.  Its a referendum to appease the right wing of the conservative party.  To fight off UKIP and Farage.  It may be right to discuss the membership and it may be right to look at the way things are being done, but I really don't believe this is the right time to pull out just so the right wing can sort themselves out. 

What planning has been done?  What does the UK out of Europe look like?  I dont know.  Does anyone?  Has anyone got a plan beyond lets get out?  An actual plan for the country that is.  Not a plan for who is going to get high office.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Monday, June 13, 2016, 16:16:28
Has anyone got a plan beyond lets get out?  An actual plan for the country that is.  Not a plan for who is going to get high office.

Exactly. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, June 13, 2016, 16:22:25
What planning has been done?  What does the UK out of Europe look like?  I dont know.  Does anyone?  Has anyone got a plan beyond lets get out?  An actual plan for the country that is.  Not a plan for who is going to get high office.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/05/bank-of-england-brexit-preparations-uk-banks


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 13, 2016, 16:29:46
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/05/bank-of-england-brexit-preparations-uk-banks

That actually has nothing to do with the Brexit campaign and is just normal financial planning by a national bank, reading that just makes one realise just what a financial shit storm could be unleashed if we depart, response to the Brexiters from the electorate if this comes to bear could be interesting considering what a shit kicking (and quite rightly) the bankers got for fucking the economy, if its our elected members who lead on it this time could create a tide which drops Corbyn into No.10??


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, June 13, 2016, 16:41:33
That actually has nothing to do with the Brexit campaign and is just normal financial planning by a national bank, reading that just makes one realise just what a financial shit storm could be unleashed if we depart, response to the Brexiters from the electorate if this comes to bear could be interesting considering what a shit kicking (and quite rightly) the bankers got for fucking the economy, if its our elected members who lead on it this time could create a tide which drops Corbyn into No.10??

....Saxondale asked " has anyone got a plan beyond let's get out?"  So there's an example of someone with a plan.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, June 14, 2016, 06:42:58
....Saxondale asked " has anyone got a plan beyond let's get out?"  So there's an example of someone with a plan.



Rubbish. That's not a plan to take the country forward in the event that we vote to leave, it's a set of actions to mitigate the impact on all of us of the Brexit group having no such plan.

You might just as well say that the plan to address the escalating violence at Euro 2016 is to have more medical staff on standby. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: normy on Tuesday, June 14, 2016, 08:26:21
Does anyone have any confidence that, in the event of a Brexit vote, a Government/Party/ civil service could be provided to carry out the ideals of their campaign competently and fairly?  I don't, which suggests to me 'better the Devil you know'. (More or less).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 14, 2016, 08:35:24
Rubbish. That's not a plan to take the country forward in the event that we vote to leave, it's a set of actions to mitigate the impact on all of us of the Brexit group having no such plan.

You might just as well say that the plan to address the escalating violence at Euro 2016 is to have more medical staff on standby. 

That was my point, its more a contingency plan from the national bank should the electorate choose to impose a recession upon itself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 14, 2016, 08:40:45
Does anyone have any confidence that, in the event of a Brexit vote, a Government/Party/ civil service could be provided to carry out the ideals of their campaign competently and fairly?  I don't, which suggests to me 'better the Devil you know'. (More or less).

If we leave we will still have a Tory government until 2020 (unless there is a vote of no confidence which could force an election), however if Cameron loses I strongly suspect he will be gone fairly sharpish and likely be replaced by a new cabinet formed of the Tory leaders of the Brexit campaign (Gove, IDS, Villiers etc likely led by Johnson), plus the Civil service will remain to deliver the governments bidding so nothing will really change on that basis.

However it is important to also remember that if we vote to leave on the 23rd we won't be out of the EU for at least two years after that date as there is a statutory consultation period of two years with the EU should someone choose to leave.

The one interesting thing on the horizon is what will happen with Farage, as it has been his party and campaigning which has essentially led to the departure I cannot see him going quietly, so I suspect he will be seeking a seat at the cabinet table either as an MP (if the Tory electoral expenses scam things goes the full course) or elevated with a peerage (although that would make something of a mockery of the argument that unelected chambers are wrong) or just as a special advisor?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, June 14, 2016, 08:47:34
If we leave we will still have a Tory government until 2020 (unless there is a vote of no confidence which could force an election), however if Cameron loses I strongly suspect he will be gone fairly sharpish and likely be replaced by a new cabinet formed of the Tory leaders of the Brexit campaign (Gove, IDS, Villiers etc likely led by Johnson), plus the Civil service will remain to deliver the governments bidding so nothing will really change on that basis.

However it is important to also remember that if we vote to leave on the 23rd we won't be out of the EU for at least two years after that date as there is a statutory consultation period of two years with the EU should someone choose to leave.

The one interesting thing on the horizon is what will happen with Farage, as it has been his party and campaigning which has essentially led to the departure I cannot see him going quietly, so I suspect he will be seeking a seat at the cabinet table either as an MP (if the Tory electoral expenses scam things goes the full course) or elected to the peerage (although that would make something of a mockery of the argument that unelected chambers are wrong) or just as a special advisor?

You don't get elected to the peerage. Perhaps Farage could replace Lord Hill of Oareford as our EU Commisioner  :) at least Farage has offered himself up for election by the British public, unlike Jonathan Hill who has climbed the greasy pole, without ever having that inconvenience.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 14, 2016, 09:01:36
You don't get elected to the peerage. Perhaps Farage could replace Lord Hill of Oareford as our EU Commisioner  :) at least Farage has offered himself up for election by the British public, unlike Jonathan Hill who has climbed the greasy pole, without ever having that inconvenience.

Thanks for pointing that out Reg, clearly I meant elevated didn't I?

Its going to be difficult for many as Farage's right wing influence grows his activities cannot be blamed on Thatcher can they, how will you manage Reg?  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, June 14, 2016, 09:09:40
Thanks for pointing that out Reg, clearly I meant elevated didn't I?

Its going to be difficult for many as Farage's right wing influence grows his activities cannot be blamed on Thatcher can they, how will you manage Reg?  :D

Did you?

The Lib Dems, of which you were recently one seem to have a problem with elections and ending up in the Lords....currently 8 in the Commons yet over 100 in the Lords.

http://www.libdems.org.uk/peers

Don't think I've heard a single word from any of these luminaries on the subject of the EU referendum, what do they do all day?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Tuesday, June 14, 2016, 09:33:52
I can't blame them for not shouting and bitching like the rest of them...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 14, 2016, 09:39:42
Did you?

The Lib Dems, of which you were recently one seem to have a problem with elections and ending up in the Lords....currently 8 in the Commons yet over 100 in the Lords.

http://www.libdems.org.uk/peers

Don't think I've heard a single word from any of these luminaries on the subject of the EU referendum, what do they do all day?

I imagine like most in the Lords (Tory/Labour/Lib Dem) they sit and eat buffet food, although the Lib Dems do seem to do more than the Labour ones - see the manner in which they tried to block the welfare cuts in 2015 yet Labour did not support them in the Lords?

Are you now saying that the Lords seats should be entirely based upon elected members in the commons, probably a good idea that could have been bought in when the Lib Dems tried to get PR through and yet Labour also opposed that - funny?

So rather than answering the question about the rise of the right, you bring it round to a debate about the Lib Dems - I suppose a return to Thatcherite politics will at least give some currency to that constant position of opposition and mean its not over 20 years out of date anymore?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Tuesday, June 14, 2016, 22:20:04
What disgusts me most is Labours backing for remain.

I understand why the tories and big business want a constantly renewed source of cheap labour to suppress wages.

And I get why the rich want cheap labour to deliver their basement extensions.

But why does a party that purports to represent the working class want any of that ?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Tuesday, June 14, 2016, 22:51:20
What disgusts me most is Labours backing for remain.

I understand why the tories and big business want a constantly renewed source of cheap labour to suppress wages.

And I get why the rich want cheap labour to deliver their basement extensions.

But why does a party that purports to represent the working class want any of that ?

Workers rights, minimum wage, human rights, farming subsidies etc etc I would assume.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 00:28:41
Do we actually need the ECHR to ensure we establish human rights in this country? Is that what people are really worried about?

Same with minimum wage. Why do we need the EU for that? Surely the answer is we don't?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 06:15:24
Do we actually need the ECHR to ensure we establish human rights in this country? Is that what people are really worried about?

Same with minimum wage. Why do we need the EU for that? Surely the answer is we don't?

Sadly,yes


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 07:23:24
Do we actually need the ECHR to ensure we establish human rights in this country? Is that what people are really worried about?

Same with minimum wage. Why do we need the EU for that? Surely the answer is we don't?
I suspect that any alternative human rights charter drawn up here will favour some types of humans over others.
Same with any new employment legislation, which will be biased towards the employer and big business.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 07:39:55
Do we actually need the ECHR to ensure we establish human rights in this country? Is that what people are really worried about?

Same with minimum wage. Why do we need the EU for that? Surely the answer is we don't?

I am not sure what if any thing the ECHR has to do with the EU, are they not separate entities?

In terms of the wider question I think the concern is that if we leave the Tories will have a free reign to do what they like with things like workers rights etc, if we had a credible opposition that would be less of an issue as it could be controlled by parliament, however with the present position where Labour are too busy engaging in a vanity contest whilst waving their appendages around to act in opposition the Tories are doing what they like, the right of the party will be even more confident to essentially do what they like if they believe they have won a mandate of sorts from the country on the EU issue?

Interesting times ahead for all. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: skiptotheLouMacari on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 08:26:37
Do we actually need the ECHR to ensure we establish human rights in this country? Is that what people are really worried about?

Same with minimum wage. Why do we need the EU for that? Surely the answer is we don't?

I might be wrong usually am, but wasn't it the UK that introduced minimum wage? Also read somewhere that EU directive is 4 months maternity leave but we allow 12, (again could be I'll informed).
Personally I wish both sides would be open and rather than pick holes in the other's manifest just concentrate on their own and prove they are correct. The trouble is politicians couldn't lie straight in bed, they can't be trusted.
Currently I sit in the out camp having changed from as said earlier up the thread better the devil you know etc, but we don't elect the European Parliament, they impose unrealistic laws on all of Europe such as
Wonky veg,
Too small Kiwi fruit
Party whistle streamers banned for under 14's
Latex balloons not for use under 8 without supervision.
Those UNelected to sit can earn more than our own Prime Minister who we all blame when things go wrong but he has little or no control over.
Do we really pay £368,000,000 each week to Brussels and what do we get back? Yes a rebate agreed in the 80's but still we pay in more than we receive.
Signs on buildings stating that this was built with EU assistance, yet it was our money that we pumped into the EU to start with.
I think for me the icing on the cake was when I was asked the question, if we were voting to join the EU, no control on laws or borders, no help from the government for struggling industry, pay the EU £368,000,000 each week while making savage cuts to our NHS, Police, Military and local councils. Pensions need reducing as they can't be sustained along with welfare cuts. Would you join it?
I know the grass isn't greener on the other side you never know what will happen, but surely we can't go subsidising the failing Eurozone can we?
My view on the referendum has no political allegiance, it is purely my view and opinion for the future of our children.
£368,000,000 per week would go along way to sorting our debt out, improving border security, reduce hospital waiting times by building more and recruiting more staff. Additional police officers, bolster the military again because they are both struggling, and save our industry when it is struggling.
And don't get me started about the bonuses that twat Junker likes to pay himself!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 08:26:55
A little interesting maybe. My wife works in a large technical college, they did a vote last week, all people of voteable age, staff and students. 60 voted stay against 180 leave. Small snapshot, but pretty one sided.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: skiptotheLouMacari on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 08:40:49
I am not sure what if any thing the ECHR has to do with the EU, are they not separate entities?

In terms of the wider question I think the concern is that if we leave the Tories will have a free reign to do what they like with things like workers rights etc, if we had a credible opposition that would be less of an issue as it could be controlled by parliament, however with the present position where Labour are too busy engaging in a vanity contest whilst waving their appendages around to act in opposition the Tories are doing what they like, the right of the party will be even more confident to essentially do what they like if they believe they have won a mandate of sorts from the country on the EU issue?

Interesting times ahead for all. 

I don't think they would have free reign as we wouldn't lock the gates on the 24th June if the country elected to leave.
Isn't it stated above somewhere it would take two years to be out of it? Therefore they wouldn't be allowed to just make the rules up as they go along, but then again this is Parliament were talking about!
You are spot on about the oppossiton, they are in turmoil currently and it's a pissing contest with them. No real threat to the government, apart from rejecting whatever the govrnment try to through all sulky school girl style. However the Tory party are in a similar situation, in house fighting and then denying it's a leadership challenge, once in/out is decided.
Politics and the constant bickering between sides is so fucking pathetic let the Monarchy rule again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 08:46:00
I don't think they would have free reign as we wouldn't lock the gates on the 24th June if the country elected to leave.
Isn't it stated above somewhere it would take two years to be out of it? Therefore they wouldn't be allowed to just make the rules up as they go along, but then again this is Parliament were talking about!
You are spot on about the oppossiton, they are in turmoil currently and it's a pissing contest with them. No real threat to the government, apart from rejecting whatever the govrnment try to through all sulky school girl style. However the Tory party are in a similar situation, in house fighting and then denying it's a leadership challenge, once in/out is decided.
Politics and the constant bickering between sides is so fucking pathetic let the Monarchy rule again.

I think I may have mentioned the 2 year thing above as that is what the EU treaty says, however the Brexiters are now saying that they can get round this issue:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35689435


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: skiptotheLouMacari on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 08:54:51
I think I may have mentioned the 2 year thing above as that is what the EU treaty says, however the Brexiters are now saying that they can get round this issue:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35689435
It wouldn't surprise me if they were trying to scrap the wind down period, but if they are happy to try and change this policy, what else will they try and change? Easier not to vote at all then I would have a clear conscience if/when either side fucked it up. Splinters are beginning to sharpen in anticipation of my fence sitting  :(


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 08:57:40
I think you're about to fall off the edge of the planet. But since I can't vote, I'll just have to watch it happen. Then see if I can sort out another passport.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: skiptotheLouMacari on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 09:05:49
I think you're about to fall off the edge of the planet. But since I can't vote, I'll just have to watch it happen. Then see if I can sort out another passport.
Who me?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 09:32:20
Who me?

No, you, like me, are just watching it happen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: skiptotheLouMacari on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 09:36:52
No, you, like me, are just watching it happen.
I meant falling from the planet?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 09:58:47
I meant falling from the planet?

Oh yeah, that. Yep, you'll be doing that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 10:11:38
I might be wrong usually am, but wasn't it the UK that introduced minimum wage? Also read somewhere that EU directive is 4 months maternity leave but we allow 12, (again could be I'll informed).
Personally I wish both sides would be open and rather than pick holes in the other's manifest just concentrate on their own and prove they are correct. The trouble is politicians couldn't lie straight in bed, they can't be trusted.
Currently I sit in the out camp having changed from as said earlier up the thread better the devil you know etc, but we don't elect the European Parliament, they impose unrealistic laws on all of Europe such as
Wonky veg,
Too small Kiwi fruit
Party whistle streamers banned for under 14's
Latex balloons not for use under 8 without supervision.
Those UNelected to sit can earn more than our own Prime Minister who we all blame when things go wrong but he has little or no control over.
Do we really pay £368,000,000 each week to Brussels and what do we get back? Yes a rebate agreed in the 80's but still we pay in more than we receive.
Signs on buildings stating that this was built with EU assistance, yet it was our money that we pumped into the EU to start with.
I think for me the icing on the cake was when I was asked the question, if we were voting to join the EU, no control on laws or borders, no help from the government for struggling industry, pay the EU £368,000,000 each week while making savage cuts to our NHS, Police, Military and local councils. Pensions need reducing as they can't be sustained along with welfare cuts. Would you join it?
I know the grass isn't greener on the other side you never know what will happen, but surely we can't go subsidising the failing Eurozone can we?
My view on the referendum has no political allegiance, it is purely my view and opinion for the future of our children.
£368,000,000 per week would go along way to sorting our debt out, improving border security, reduce hospital waiting times by building more and recruiting more staff. Additional police officers, bolster the military again because they are both struggling, and save our industry when it is struggling.
And don't get me started about the bonuses that twat Junker likes to pay himself!


The essential point of the EU and its previous forms, was to try and help create a politically stable Europe, whereby trade rather than conflict could happen. We are a net contributor, along with a few other countries, the thinking being it's cheaper in the long run, in terms of defence spending and economies wrecked by war.

For example when I was a kid there was proper austerity, partly because of continuing post war problems....so defence spending was an eye watering 10% of GDP.  The first new NHS hospital to be built in the country post war in 1960 was PMH, such was the shortage of cash.

A lot would argue now it was never the EU which maintained peace but rather NATO....backing it up by saying the EU eastern expansion and considered accession of Turkey is a massive destabilising factor.

It's a difficult decision....if we get our money back, all well and good but if the EU implodes we'll have to fork out in other ways...

A Trump win in the US, will be interesting as he thinks Europe should pay up for the NATO umbrella surrounding Russia.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 10:52:26
Whilst some reasoned political debate happens on a football forum with the tagline 25% football 80% bollocks, Nigel Farage (Kenneth Connor) on his carry on love boat is being persued down by the Thames by Bob Geldolf (Sid James) shouting 'fuck the fucking referendum give us yer fucking fish' or somehting like that.

In the background Stuart Hall has stopped fiddling with kids long enough to commentate on the most depressing episode of Jeux Sans Frontières imaginable.

And the populous wept.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 10:57:41
In the background Stuart Hall has stopped fiddling with kids

The late Lib Dem MP, Sir Clement Freud has now been outed as a historical paedo.  Wonder what his grandpa would have made to it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 11:13:56
Whilst some reasoned political debate happens on a football forum with the tagline 25% football 80% bollocks, Nigel Farage (Kenneth Connor) on his carry on love boat is being persued down by the Thames by Bob Geldolf (Sid James) shouting 'fuck the fucking referendum give us yer fucking fish' or somehting like that.

In the background Stuart Hall has stopped fiddling with kids long enough to commentate on the most depressing episode of Jeux Sans Frontières imaginable.

And the populous wept.

Oh god, I thought this was an elaborate metaphor, but I see it's happening exactly as you describe.

Fuck me, this is political debate in the social media age. How fucking tinpot.

We're all fucked.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 11:17:32
Whilst some reasoned political debate happens on a football forum with the tagline 25% football 80% bollocks, Nigel Farage (Kenneth Connor) on his carry on love boat is being persued down by the Thames by Bob Geldolf (Sid James) shouting 'fuck the fucking referendum give us yer fucking fish' or somehting like that.

In the background Stuart Hall has stopped fiddling with kids long enough to commentate on the most depressing episode of Jeux Sans Frontières imaginable.

And the populous wept.

Jesus when I first read this I thought you were taking the piss!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 11:26:56
The late Lib Dem MP, Sir Clement Freud has now been outed as a historical paedo.  Wonder what his grandpa would have made to it?

As I know you are a stickler for detail Freud left parliament in 1987 and the Lib Dems didn't come into being until 1988?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 11:36:30
Well he was a Liberal Party MP which became the Lib Dems.. So he's not technically wrong.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: AldbourneRed on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 11:42:51
I might be wrong usually am, but wasn't it the UK that introduced minimum wage? Also read somewhere that EU directive is 4 months maternity leave but we allow 12, (again could be I'll informed).
Personally I wish both sides would be open and rather than pick holes in the other's manifest just concentrate on their own and prove they are correct. The trouble is politicians couldn't lie straight in bed, they can't be trusted.
Currently I sit in the out camp having changed from as said earlier up the thread better the devil you know etc, but we don't elect the European Parliament, they impose unrealistic laws on all of Europe such as
Wonky veg,
Too small Kiwi fruit
Party whistle streamers banned for under 14's
Latex balloons not for use under 8 without supervision.
Those UNelected to sit can earn more than our own Prime Minister who we all blame when things go wrong but he has little or no control over.
Do we really pay £368,000,000 each week to Brussels and what do we get back? Yes a rebate agreed in the 80's but still we pay in more than we receive.
Signs on buildings stating that this was built with EU assistance, yet it was our money that we pumped into the EU to start with.
I think for me the icing on the cake was when I was asked the question, if we were voting to join the EU, no control on laws or borders, no help from the government for struggling industry, pay the EU £368,000,000 each week while making savage cuts to our NHS, Police, Military and local councils. Pensions need reducing as they can't be sustained along with welfare cuts. Would you join it?
I know the grass isn't greener on the other side you never know what will happen, but surely we can't go subsidising the failing Eurozone can we?
My view on the referendum has no political allegiance, it is purely my view and opinion for the future of our children.
£368,000,000 per week would go along way to sorting our debt out, improving border security, reduce hospital waiting times by building more and recruiting more staff. Additional police officers, bolster the military again because they are both struggling, and save our industry when it is struggling.
And don't get me started about the bonuses that twat Junker likes to pay himself!


Surely we do though? All MEPs are elected by some form of proportional representation within their member states, I certainly remember heading down to the polling station for the MEP elections.
Granted as a single member state we only have a certain number of MEPs, but they're all democratically elected.

I'm no expert though, so happy to be corrected if I've misunderstood.

http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your-meps/european_elections/the_voting_system.html (http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your-meps/european_elections/the_voting_system.html)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 11:47:52
This last few pages have hurt my head. I still don't have a clue how to vote


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 11:52:44
This last few pages have hurt my head. I still don't have a clue how to vote

I am awaiting the outcome of the battle of the Thames this afternoon to make a final decision.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 11:55:25
Surely we do though? All MEPs are elected by some form of proportional representation within their member states, I certainly remember heading down to the polling station for the MEP elections.
Granted as a single member state we only have a certain number of MEPs, but they're all democratically elected.

I'm no expert though, so happy to be corrected if I've misunderstood.

http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your-meps/european_elections/the_voting_system.html (http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your-meps/european_elections/the_voting_system.html)



I suspect he means the European Comission, which is the bit that proposes laws and isn't directly elected. It is however, appointed by national governments, which is pretty much how the House of Lords works (albeit without any bishops, perhaps that's the problem?)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 11:57:24
I am awaiting the outcome of the battle of the Thames this afternoon to make a final decision.
It's all become a joke now, well even more than it already is. No one has mentioned it but seems to me that Cameron has taken a back seat now and letting the others make the argument, if they lose i suppose he can use Corbyns recent efforts as an excuse for why people voted against it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 12:00:34
It's all become a joke now, well even more than it already is. No one has mentioned it but seems to me that Cameron has taken a back seat now and letting the others make the argument, if they lose i suppose he can use Corbyns recent efforts as an excuse for why people voted against it.

I suspect that someone has finally realised just how much Cameron was pissing people off, as for Corbyn he is stuck between a rock and a hard place (ideologically he doesn't want to be in the EU v. many of the PLP do want to be in) that said his heart doesn't seem to be in it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: skiptotheLouMacari on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 12:11:05
I suspect he means the European Comission, which is the bit that proposes laws and isn't directly elected. It is however, appointed by national governments, which is pretty much how the House of Lords works (albeit without any bishops, perhaps that's the problem?)


I didn't vote for Junker or any of those other shit bags who gang up on Britain.
We are the ginger step kid of Europe, not really liked by any other European country but without us they do not reap the rewards. Europe is mostly run by German's and French as the two biggest power houses in Parliament.
They don't really want us they want our money.
Just had a punt on the thames, very quiet considering this afternoon's duel.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 12:15:32

I didn't vote for Junker or any of those other shit bags who gang up on Britain.
We are the ginger step kid of Europe, not really liked by any other European country but without us they do not reap the rewards. Europe is mostly run by German's and French as the two biggest power houses in Parliament.
They don't really want us they want our money.
Just had a punt on the thames, very quiet considering this afternoon's duel.

You also didn't vote for anyone in the current government, with the possible exception of your local MP if you were lucky enough to pick the right candidate, and they've since been chosen to be part of the government. We don't have particularly direct democracy, at best we vote for local representatives who then appoint the people who make the actual decisions.

The only people who directly voted for David Cameron are around 35,000 people in Witney


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 12:18:03

I didn't vote for Junker or any of those other shit bags who gang up on Britain.
We are the ginger step kid of Europe, not really liked by any other European country but without us they do not reap the rewards. Europe is mostly run by German's and French as the two biggest power houses in Parliament.
They don't really want us they want our money.
Just had a punt on the thames, very quiet considering this afternoon's duel.

You voted for the MEPs who appointed junker


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Simon Pieman on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 12:25:46
I can't imagine any existing or future government can really make all the best case scenarios happen. Staying in the EU may have advantages and disadvantages but at least we know the position we're in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 12:57:55
I saw some video clip last night that claims the EU relocate from Brussels to Strasbourg once a month for 4 days, taking shedloads of staff and paperwork. Costs about 100mill a year. All because something was agreed in the past etc etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 13:06:32
I saw some video clip last night that claims the EU relocate from Brussels to Strasbourg once a month for 4 days, taking shedloads of staff and paperwork. Costs about 100mill a year. All because something was agreed in the past etc etc.

Yeah that pretty much happens. I don't think anyone in the remain camp thinks it's not mental, but it's hardly worth canning the whole thing over; whilst 100m is a ridiculous amount of money, it's a drop in the ocean when it comes to national budgets - as has been pointed out, even the £350bn total cost of EU figure (which ignores rebates but lets not get into that argument again) is 0.6% of UK GDP.

So basically the economic argument comes down to "do you think that leaving the EU would cause our GDP to fall by more than 0.6% relative to what would happen if we stay in". If that's a no, then it makes economic sense in your terms to leave (although that ignores social/sovereignty arguments, but those can be discussed separately)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 13:27:04
Are any EU departments based in the UK?  :sherlock:
I don't like the fact they are pushing the borders out as far as they are, the ridiculous laws that we have to accept. Britain isn't really liked by the rest of Europe so why be part of it? People saying it's better to stick with what we know, nobody knows where Europe is heading but with the mass migration, bail outs and social unrest in mainland Europe it doesn't paint a rosy picture.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 13:48:03
I always think a good idea when you're confused is to listen to people who are more qualified to judge than you are. In this case virtually everyone with any economic nous is with Remain. Among major figures, only businessmen with a professional stake in less regulation or politicians with a personal agenda seem to be for Brexit.

Don't get this one wrong - the stakes are vastly higher than a general election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 14:05:02

Don't get this one wrong - the stakes are vastly higher than a general election.

Actually they're not.  Parliament is sovereign exercising power on behalf of the head of state...in our unwritten constitution it can be argued that a referendum is only advisory. Should it be a very close vote either way, Parliament can finesse the decision as it sees fit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 14:08:28
Actually they're not.  Parliament is sovereign exercising power on behalf of the head of state...in our unwritten constitution it can be argued that a referendum is only advisory. Should it be a very close vote either way, Parliament can finesse the decision as it sees fit.

But isn't this all a vote for our sovereignty anyway as we have had it taken away, that's what Brexit keep saying?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 14:22:47
But isn't this all a vote for our sovereignty anyway as we have had it taken away, that's what Brexit keep saying?

No, we gave it away, or as some might say pooled it, similarly Parliament can take it back.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: AldbourneRed on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 14:33:11
I always think a good idea when you're confused is to listen to people who are more qualified to judge than you are. In this case virtually everyone with any economic nous is with Remain. Among major figures, only businessmen with a professional stake in less regulation or politicians with a personal agenda seem to be for Brexit.

Don't get this one wrong - the stakes are vastly higher than a general election.

There's quite a few things on this going round Facebook at the moment, exaggerated to make the author's point but you get the gist:

Quote from: Facebook
If you don't have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum (I don't blame you) and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out.

Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• That idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David Icke

If you can’t be bothered to look into the real facts and implications of all this in/out stuff, just pick the list that you most trust and vote that way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 14:36:26
They forgot Putin on the leave list.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 14:39:39
And Murdoch


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nick Bamosomi on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 14:44:14
And Joey Essex - if that doesn't help you make up your mind......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 14:45:38
Can somebody state what will go wrong if we leave? Thx.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 14:47:47
And Murdock

What from the A Team.....

on that theme we have

Murdoch the Australian American who has admitted he only wants to leave as Westminster does his bidding and Brussels wont!
Dirty Desmond - lives abroad pays no tax and is obsessed by house prices, Diana and mortgages (not sure how he will square it if we go and house prices collapse).
Rothermere - lives abroad paper registered abroad pays no tax!
Barclay Brothers - wanted to avoid tax so much they bought an island.....

There is definitely a theme here?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 14:59:30
Can somebody state what will go wrong if we leave? Thx.

Well Donald Tusk thinks it will be the beginning of the end of Western civilisation. So not much  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 14:59:40
Can somebody state what will go wrong if we leave? Thx.

Nobody knows exactly what will happen, that's the scary thing. If the Leave campaign actually had a solid plan for how the exit would happen I might be more inclined to lean that way.

In the short term, Sterling will weaken. If you listen to Farage he says that's a good thing because it makes our exports competitive, but as an island nation that has to import a whole lot of basic goods and materials it's likely to be bad news for Joe Public. Uncertainty will linger until someone actually comes up with a plan. Investment markets will be volatile which Joe Public probably don't care about, but they should do. Big businesses will leave the UK. GDP will take a hit and we'll probably head back into recession. People will lose their jobs. We'll have even more austerity. The Tories can pass all sorts of corporate, tax and labour law through parliament. And Boris Johnson will probably be running the country.

But hey, no more unelected bureaucrats telling us what to do and less Poles stealing your job.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 15:01:15
Nobody knows exactly what will happen, that's the scary thing. If the Leave campaign actually had a solid plan for how the exit would happen I might be more inclined to lean that way.

In the short term, Sterling will weaken. If you listen to Farage he says that's a good thing because it makes our exports competitive, but as an island nation that has to import a whole lot of basic goods and materials it's likely to be bad news for Joe Public. Uncertainty will linger until someone actually comes up with a plan. Investment markets will be volatile which Joe Public probably don't care about, but they should do. Big businesses will leave the UK. GDP will take a hit and we'll probably head back into recession. People will lose their jobs. We'll have even more austerity. The Tories can pass all sorts of corporate, tax and labour law through parliament. And Boris Johnson will probably be running the country.

But hey, no more unelected bureaucrats telling us what to do and less Poles stealing your job.

That made me want to cry and laugh at the same time, can I steal it and put it on Facebook!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 15:02:08
Be my guest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Simon Pieman on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 15:03:18
Can somebody state what will go wrong if we leave? Thx.

The Conservative Party


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 19:12:28
The Conservative Party

And the "United" Kingdom. If you vote leave, that's finished.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 19:18:24
Quote from: 4D
Can somebody state what will go wrong if we leave? Thx.

Probably another recession


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Private Fraser on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 19:23:03
The smartest bloke on the planet - Professor Stephen Hawking - thinks it's better to remain.  That's good enough for me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 19:28:20
And the "United" Kingdom. If you vote leave, that's finished.

On that point, I think a lot will depend on margins.  If it's 51:49 in favour of Leave and 49:51 in Scotland, I'm not sure that it will be as clear cut as that.  For one, I'm far from convinced that the exit from the EU would happen anyway.  All you'd need was a further (for example) 48:52 poll in the weeks following the vote and the premise of leaving itself will be thrown in to doubt.  Leaving would take years to happen, and the appetite for leaving would need to be sustained throughout that period for it to actually to go ahead.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 19:30:10
This issue is really doing my nut in. I think I'm changing my mind again.  :suicide:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 19:54:49
On that point, I think a lot will depend on margins.  If it's 51:49 in favour of Leave and 49:51 in Scotland, I'm not sure that it will be as clear cut as that.  For one, I'm far from convinced that the exit from the EU would happen anyway.  All you'd need was a further (for example) 48:52 poll in the weeks following the vote and the premise of leaving itself will be thrown in to doubt.  Leaving would take years to happen, and the appetite for leaving would need to be sustained throughout that period for it to actually to go ahead.

Well you've got deeper roots in Scotland than me, but I'm pretty sure that if Brexit prevailed and Scotland was de facto forced out of Europe, that would kick-start the process that would see Scotland leave the UK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 20:03:01
I'm voting in. This is despite odious Osbourne and cuntish Cameron, not because of them.

Not everything in The EU is ideal, but listening to Farage and Boris I'd rather be governed by faceless Brussels bureaucrats......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 20:11:08
I've voted in, also having just been made redundant i'm dreading a successful out vote which will no doubt plunge the country back into another recession, making finding another job that much harder.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Wednesday, June 15, 2016, 20:18:28
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36534192

Quote
'We find it incredible that the chancellor could seriously be threatening to renege on so many manifesto pledges," they said.
"It is absurd to say that if people vote to take back control from the EU that he would want to punish them in this way."
They added: "If he were to proceed with these proposals, the chancellor's position would become untenable."

I think this statement probably means that Osborne is a goner regardless of the outcome. It is now safe to vote Remain, and not be lumbered with him as PM /CotE.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 06:28:43
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36534192

I think this statement probably means that Osborne is a goner regardless of the outcome. It is now safe to vote Remain, and not be lumbered with him as PM /CotE.

Indeed - I suspect a few quid on Teresa May going forward may be worthwhile, she is playing a long game here?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 07:08:22
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36534192

I think this statement probably means that Osborne is a goner regardless of the outcome. It is now safe to vote Remain, and not be lumbered with him as PM /CotE.

This should be cause for celebration, but they'll just replace one shiny teflon coated cunt with another one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 07:15:44
I'm voting in. This is despite odious Osbourne and cuntish Cameron, not because of them.

Not everything in The EU is ideal, but listening to Farage and Boris I'd rather be governed by faceless Brussels bureaucrats......

Herein lies much of the problem, it has become more about the characters involved and less about the EU which probably suits the Brexiters as many people seem to find Boris and Farage charismatic, whereas no one likes Cameron and Osbourne?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 08:59:56
I've voted in, also having just been made redundant i'm dreading a successful out vote which will no doubt plunge the country back into another recession, making finding another job that much harder.

Sorry to hear that.  I hope you get something else soon.

I think this statement probably means that Osborne is a goner regardless of the outcome. It is now safe to vote Remain, and not be lumbered with him as PM /CotE.

I agree.  Osborne and Cameron have exhausted all of their political capital.  I've thought for some time that Cameron, in particular, will be quite likely to announce he's standing down on June 24th...regardless of the outcome of the vote.  He's been burning bridges for months and behaving as if nothing matters after the vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 09:21:43
I've voted in, also having just been made redundant i'm dreading a successful out vote which will no doubt plunge the country back into another recession, making finding another job that much harder.

Sorry to hear about that Ginginho.

My advice having gone through the same is (if you haven't already) is to get on Linkedin asap. I basically managed to get another job solely through networking. Good luck with your search and I hope you find something soon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 09:23:12
Herein lies much of the problem, it has become more about the characters involved and less about the EU which probably suits the Brexiters as many people seem to find Boris and Farage charismatic, whereas no one likes Cameron and Osbourne?

Charismatic is not the word beginning with C that most people would use to describe Boris and Farage for sure!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 10:03:05

I've thought for some time that Cameron, in particular, will be quite likely to announce he's standing down on June 24th...regardless of the outcome of the vote.  He's been burning bridges for months and behaving as if nothing matters after the vote.

I think his whole legacy depends on the vote...

In other news for those still considering which way to go Alan Partridge has entered the debate...

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/15/nigel-farage-has-gone-full-alan-partridge-with-the-brexit-flotilla-5946922/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 10:04:19
Charismatic is not the word beginning with C that most people would use to describe Boris and Farage for sure!

As we seem to be heading to a Boris Farage led Brexit I fear your use of 'most' is misguided (no I don't get it either!)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 10:09:06
Probably another recession
Which has also happened while we were in the EU to be fair.It's the same people predicting it may happen this time isn't it that didn't predict the recent recession.

Not being argumentative just wondering if i am correct in thinking that?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 10:25:53
Which has also happened while we were in the EU to be fair.It's the same people predicting it may happen this time isn't it that didn't predict the recent recession.

Not being argumentative just wondering if i am correct in thinking that?

Couple of points

a) yes we did go into recession whilst in the EU however in that case it was a world wide recession bought about by the banking crisis, we would have been affected whether we were in or out at that time. The economists did miss it mainly due to complacency that the economic boom would never end.

b) In the case of post Brexit recession, yes economists have predicted it, the self same ones who missed the world wide one of 2008-2012 (ish)however in this case it would essentially be localised and entirely self inflicted, that's why economists can (possibly) be a little more detailed about it.

c) whether one believes it is up to personal opinions and experience, knowing professionally that investment, consumer spending and business hates change and uncertainty (and thus will at best take their ball home in the short term) I reckon it will cause stagnation and possible recession and having been made redundant in the past that scares me both for my keeping the family but also in future years my daughter getting a job etc. Samdy boxed it off fairly well a few pages back?

Ultimately its all down to personal perceptions, interpretations and how one perceives risk anyway.

Edit - but then again why would you listen to me, I don't seem to know what couple means!  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 10:34:28
Ha no i appreciate that and does make sense. Still got a week to decide i suppose so see what happens.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 10:35:12
I'm not sure I understand the change mallarkey as a reason to stay. If we took that approach we'd never have joined and the EU is continually changing the way we live anyway.
Its interesting to me that those most likely to vote out are those people who can remember what it was like before we joined.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 10:58:02
 Cameron is in Swindon's Euro constituency today....no not another trip to The Sun at Coate, but Gibraltar.

 Poor old Gibraltarians....Brexit will make life very difficult for them, as regards border crossing as the Spanish pretty much ignore EU rules anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 11:18:50
I'm not sure I understand the change mallarkey as a reason to stay. If we took that approach we'd never have joined and the EU is continually changing the way we live anyway.
Its interesting to me that those most likely to vote out are those people who can remember what it was like before we joined.

But a large proportion of those also seem to still think we have an empire and only recently ended a war with Germany?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 11:35:18
Hopefully i word this correctly.

Has anyone else noticed it seems to be a hell of a lot children of immigrants who seem to be the ones who want to leave because of immigration.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 11:40:54
But a large proportion of those also seem to still think we have an empire and only recently ended a war with Germany?
Or alternatively know we managed to exist without it and could do so again. At least they have a reference point which the younger generations do not have. Nothing to do with empire more with empirical evidence. Its a big wide world out there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 11:52:42
Or alternatively know we managed to exist without it and could do so again. At least they have a reference point which the younger generations do not have. Nothing to do with empire more with empirical evidence. Its a big wide world out there.

The early 70's were a very different world, no doubt we could survive in time but is it really worth a likely financial shit storm on the off chance and for the sake of saving <1% of yearly government spending (not considering the other matters) and in theory giving sovereignty back to our elected members (if you feel that way), who gave it away in the first place.....

I suppose it all boils down to who you talk to, my old man is in his late 70's and voted to not join in the 1970's, he subsequently lived in France for a bit and is back now and thinks we are insane to even be thinking about leaving. However the other forum I frequent is a heritage/history one when the average user is white Male and 50+ and it is genuinely scary the number who are basing their view on not giving jerry more control and still think that on our own we are a trading country that the world will bend over backwards to accommodate.

Ultimately the only person who can decide is each of us with our own conclusions and conscience for the effect on future generations whichwever way we go.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 12:00:40
Cameron is in Swindon's Euro constituency today....no not another trip to The Sun at Coate, but Gibraltar.

 Poor old Gibraltarians....Brexit will make life very difficult for them, as regards border crossing as the Spanish pretty much ignore EU rules anyway.

The Spanish are going to want to make life very uncomfortable to persuade those pesky Catalans and Basques that its not a good idea!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 12:13:15
But a large proportion of those also seem to still think we have an empire and only recently ended a war with Germany?

There was a long piece on Radio 4 this morning charting yesterday evening with a group of England fans.  It all started cheerily enough, but descended later on in to twattery, thuggery and songs about German bombers being seen off by 'the RAF from England'.  What was striking was most of the idiots singing it were, apparently, in their early 20s.

#### me...why not go the whole hog and bang on about Agincourt and the Battle of Waterloo?  I found myself quite literally, physically cringing with embarrassment.  It has to be a phenomenon that people will one day write about in text books.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 12:46:19
There was a long piece on Radio 4 this morning charting yesterday evening with a group of England fans.  It all started cheerily enough, but descended later on in to twattery, thuggery and songs about German bombers being seen off by 'the RAF from England'.  What was striking was most of the idiots singing it were, apparently, in their early 20s.

#### me...why not go the whole hog and bang on about Agincourt and the Battle of Waterloo?  I found myself quite literally, physically cringing with embarrassment.  It has to be a phenomenon that people will one day write about in text books.

What's wrong with banging on about Agincourt and Waterloo?  So the phenonomen you mention is middle class guilt about our history?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 12:52:09
What's wrong with banging on about Agincourt and Waterloo?  So the phenonomen you mention is middle class guilt about our history?

There is nothing to stop people talking about those battles, its just that many have moved on and realised that in modern terms they are essentially irrelevant - in all the time I have spent in France I have never heard them wittering on about their conquest of England (a victory really worth gloating about!)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 12:53:46
There is nothing to stop people talking about those battles, its just that many have moved on and realised that in modern terms they are essentially irrelevant - in all the time I have spent in France I have never heard them wittering on about their conquest of England (a victory really worth gloating about!)

Because it wasn't the French...rather a bunch of migrant Vikings.

Unlike England, France didn't exist at the time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 12:54:36
Because it wasn't the French...rather a bunch of migrant Vikings.
Well, it was the French's fault then. We rely on them to stop migrants at Calais


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 13:01:12
Because it wasn't the French...rather a bunch of migrant Vikings.

Unlike England, France didn't exist at the time.

I cannot comment as I wasn't there, however at best a group of Vikings invading a Viking occupied country, at least you didn't blame Thatcher?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 13:21:00
What's wrong with banging on about Agincourt and Waterloo?  So the phenonomen you mention is middle class guilt about our history?

Not at all.  It's just weird having groups of beered up 20 year olds aggressively posturing about a conflict that happened the best part of 100 yrs ago.  Most German 20 year olds will be too busy supporting their team to give a shit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 13:57:48
Labour MP Jo Cox stabbed and shot, early indications (which obviously may be wrong) suggest the attacker was white and shouted 'Britain first'. Absolutely mad, hope she pulls through.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 18:00:29
She has died. Sounds like an amazing woman.

RIP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, June 16, 2016, 19:29:58

#### me...why not go the whole hog and bang on about Agincourt and the Battle of Waterloo?  I found myself quite literally, physically cringing with embarrassment.  It has to be a phenomenon that people will one day write about in text books.

Given the length of time England has been at war with France over the centuries, it would make more sense...I think Waterloo might have played out differently without the Prussians.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, June 17, 2016, 18:31:29
Given the length of time England has been at war with France over the centuries, it would make more sense...I think Waterloo might have played out differently without the Prussians.

Yet another injury-time goal from the substitute at the Euros.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Sunday, June 19, 2016, 09:01:28
For anyone with a vote in this week's referendum:
  - who's ever said "please give me the facts";
  - who's aware of the importance of this vote but unclear of its consequences;
  - who's tempted to abstain due to the feeble level of the "debate";
this is a MUST-WATCH.

However much we might deride soundbite politics, I admit it was a challenge to keep still and listen to this whole 25-minute analysis, but in terms of your time vs the consequences of your vote, it'll be the best return on investment this year. So get a coffee, sit down and prepare to hear some facts.

Or if you can't be bothered, don't say you didn't have the opportunity...

https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLiverpool/videos/1293361974024537/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Sunday, June 19, 2016, 09:13:07
Who needs facts?

Once an out man always an out man.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Sunday, June 19, 2016, 09:19:01
Who needs facts?

Once an out man always an out man.

Spoken like a true out man.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Sunday, June 19, 2016, 09:22:01
Damn right!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Sunday, June 19, 2016, 12:04:41
Hopefully i word this correctly.

Has anyone else noticed it seems to be a hell of a lot children of immigrants who seem to be the ones who want to leave because of immigration.

People always look to protect what they've got. I've heard that sentiment from black British before(not even second-generation some of them), so it wouldn't surprise me to hear people of Asian decent say it now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Sunday, June 19, 2016, 12:06:42
I guess a lot of people voted tory at the last election due to their promise of a referendum so cameron cant be surprised at the fact people want to leave.you dont vote for a referendum  to vote for what you already have.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Sunday, June 19, 2016, 15:33:39
Hopefully i word this correctly.

Has anyone else noticed it seems to be a hell of a lot children of immigrants who seem to be the ones who want to leave because of immigration.
Dinesh down the shop told me he's voting out due to
1. Britain not feeling british
2. People come across just looking to get money

He went to lengths to highlight that point 2 he and his family from Sri Lanka came here "correctly"
It's was very surreal


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Sunday, June 19, 2016, 15:34:48
oh and it's bollocks that brits who have registered to vote in the last 15 years can have a say in this matter, but my mrs who's been here 14.5 years has no say


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Sunday, June 19, 2016, 16:17:22
For anyone with a vote in this week's referendum:
  - who's ever said "please give me the facts";
  - who's aware of the importance of this vote but unclear of its consequences;
  - who's tempted to abstain due to the feeble level of the "debate";
this is a MUST-WATCH.

However much we might deride soundbite politics, I admit it was a challenge to keep still and listen to this whole 25-minute analysis, but in terms of your time vs the consequences of your vote, it'll be the best return on investment this year. So get a coffee, sit down and prepare to hear some facts.

Or if you can't be bothered, don't say you didn't have the opportunity...

https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLiverpool/videos/1293361974024537/

Very interesting link covering the facts about sovereignty and trade. 

Sad but unsurprising to note that this law professor takes a whole lot of personal abuse whenever he draws attention to factually incorrect claims by the campaigners called out.

My sole criticism is that it falls short on both the 25% football and the 80% bollocks TEF quota


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, June 20, 2016, 12:00:22
Hopefully i word this correctly.

Has anyone else noticed it seems to be a hell of a lot children of immigrants who seem to be the ones who want to leave because of immigration.

It's not right.
So they are basically in favour of denying people the same opportunity at a better life, improved circumstances or shelter from conflict, that their parents or grandparents may have benefited from.
It's just a nimby attitude extended to people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, June 20, 2016, 12:04:21
So, unfettered, uncontrolled, continuing immigration is going to benefit who exactly?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Monday, June 20, 2016, 12:21:12
Why would it suddenly become unfettered and uncontrolled?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, June 20, 2016, 12:34:40
It wouldn't become, it already is. The problem is with the continuing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Monday, June 20, 2016, 12:35:33
Will sit back and watch with interest now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, June 20, 2016, 12:40:55
As much as I want an OUT result,  I expect to be disappointed.

Fantastic opportunity missed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Monday, June 20, 2016, 12:43:22
As a voting ditherer what is the fantastic opportunity i am missing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Monday, June 20, 2016, 12:43:31
It wouldn't become, it already is.

Well that isn't the case, well it is according UKIP but the actual reality is quite different


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, June 20, 2016, 13:18:28
So you are all for immigration to continue as it is?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, June 20, 2016, 13:23:19
So you are all for immigration to continue as it is?
people will still come here regardless of the vote. If we vote out I think those countries still within the eu are less likely to cooperate with us regarding immigrants and refugees. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Monday, June 20, 2016, 13:23:19
Immigration would remain exactly as it is if we left the EU.

There's no way even far right Tories wouldn't want access to the single market and with that comes freedom of movement of workers (see: Norway & Switzerland).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 20, 2016, 13:55:08
Immigration would remain exactly as it is if we left the EU.

There's no way even far right Tories wouldn't want access to the single market and with that comes freedom of movement of workers (see: Norway & Switzerland).

The first thing that will happen is France will say to the UK Border Agency staff stationed at Calais etc (they are in Belgium as well) well you can fuck off back to the UK and stop people there, if they have any sense as well they will lay on boats for those staying at The Jungle to get them off French soil ASAP, if anything its going to get worse, but then its not all about immigration is it, despite UKIP's NAZI inspired poster campaign!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Monday, June 20, 2016, 14:10:03
So you are all for immigration to continue as it is?

The worst ones are the ones that migrate out of the UK, to Ireland, for example, then come back.
Cunts of the highest order.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, June 20, 2016, 14:13:49
So, unfettered, uncontrolled, continuing immigration is going to benefit who exactly?

More concerned about the unfettered & uncontrolled buying up of British companies and institutions into foreign ownership and likewise with the awarding of contracts overseas.
Sadly, that's capitalism I guess.
Not sure what the answer is, probably none of the tired ideologies that have had their day.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Monday, June 20, 2016, 14:20:22
So, unfettered, uncontrolled, continuing immigration is going to benefit who exactly?
It's been reported that immigrants pay in more in the way of taxes than they take out. If you're talking about illegal immigrants, I don't see what difference it makes if we're in or out of the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Monday, June 20, 2016, 14:22:36
It's been reported that immigrants pay in more in the way of taxes than they take out. If you're talking about illegal immigrants, I don't see what difference it makes if we're in or out of the EU.
Is that all immigrants or just EU ones? Are there figures that tell us if we receive more or less from a certain set?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, June 20, 2016, 15:00:16
So, unfettered, uncontrolled, continuing immigration is going to benefit who exactly?
You, probably 

Who will pay your pension - young, overly keen Poles and smooth French and German bankers or chronically sick, retired Brit refugees returning from the Costas?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, June 20, 2016, 15:03:20
Is that all immigrants or just EU ones? Are there figures that tell us if we receive more or less from a certain set?
I think we receive very slightly more non-EU than EU
About 180 k v 170 k.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Monday, June 20, 2016, 15:06:49
I think we receive very slightly more non-EU than EU
About 180 k v 170 k.

Cheers mate. Sorry what i meant was do we receive more income from tax from EU immigration or outside EU residents


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, June 20, 2016, 15:09:05
You, probably 
Who will pay your pension - young, overly keen Poles and smooth French and German bankers or chronically sick, retired Brit refugees returning from the Costas?

I suspect the State Pension wiil be gradually phased out over the coming years and replaced by private provision....the workhouse for the those without....it worked in Victorian Britain, when we were the leading global economy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, June 20, 2016, 15:12:27
Cheers mate. Sorry what i meant was do we receive more income from tax from EU immigration or outside EU residents

The costs of immigration are regarded as about neutral....the tax yield being offset by other costs like the imbalance of the prison population....the need for interpreters and extra provisions in school etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, June 20, 2016, 15:17:01
The worst ones are the ones that migrate out of the UK, to Ireland, for example, then come back.
Cunts of the highest order.
That would be fair comment if it wasn't for the fact that free flow of UK and Irish nationals has been in place since 1922, irrespective of any EU rules.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Monday, June 20, 2016, 15:26:52
The costs of immigration are regarded as about neutral....the tax yield being offset by other costs like the imbalance of the prison population....the need for interpreters and extra provisions in school etc.
Ah ok. Cheers Reg


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 20, 2016, 15:38:06
If I knew how to post images on here from my computer (i.e. without a URL there is a quick summary of migration costs and benefits positions doing the rounds today, I cannot find it on line anywhere sadly.

Edit - actually here it is in a slightly less graphic form... https://www.unite4europe.org/eu-migration-dont-believe-the-lies/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, June 20, 2016, 16:24:11
positive net migration has a profound and positive effect on the economy. That's why all governments have encouraged it from as far back as WW2.

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk

Quote
The Office for Budget Responsibility suggests higher net migration reduces pressure on government debt over time. This result is based on the fact that incoming migrants are assumed to be more likely to be of working age than the population in general

The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR, 2013) explored the long-term fiscal sustainability of the UK using the Office for National Statistics (ONS) 2010-based population projections. OBR adopts the ONS low net-migration variant (+140,000) to estimate their central projection. They also provide fiscal projections assuming the ONS high net-migration variant (+260,000) and the ONS zero net-migration variant. OBR finds that higher net migration reduces pressure on government debt over time. This result is based on the assumption that incoming migrants are more likely to be of working age than the population in general. As shown in Figure 1, based on OBR projections, the high net-migration variant results in a public sector net debt as a share of GDP of 73%. On the other hand, the zero net-migration variant results in a public sector net debt as share of GDP of 145%.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, June 20, 2016, 16:25:27
^^ read that last line, projections show we have half the level of national debt we would have if we'd had no net migration in the last 50 years. The results aren't even close.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Monday, June 20, 2016, 16:27:16
positive net migration has a profound and positive effect on the economy. That's why all governments have encouraged it from as far back as WW2.

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk

Cheers, i was hoping to see the figures on the EU immigration and then without the EU.It's EU immigration everyone seems to have an issue with so was interested to see if non EU migration inflated those figures or not


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Monday, June 20, 2016, 16:45:49
^^ read that last line, projections show we have half the level of national debt we would have if we'd had no net migration in the last 50 years. The results aren't even close.

That's a huge argument. What a shame the pathetic half-hearted hokey-cokey Remain campaign hasn't made more of that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, June 20, 2016, 17:49:43
Cheers, i was hoping to see the figures on the EU immigration and then without the EU.It's EU immigration everyone seems to have an issue with so was interested to see if non EU migration inflated those figures or not
I think there are stats there indicating the net fiscal impact (ie tax revenues less state services provided) of EEA migration, (ie EU & Norway etc) as compared to non-EEA.  EEA immigrants seem to be much more positive (or less negative financially)

It should be noted that Migration Watch UK's stats (uniquely) show adverse net fiscal impact for all Migrants.  It is also true that the stats are not 100% up to date and methodology's and presumptions can always be questioned.

Overall however it seems that it is likely that the overall net fiscal impact of EEA migration is likely to be positive, with non-EEA migration (family ties?) less so. 



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, July 7, 2016, 15:39:29
Girl Power. Next PM to be a woman then.

Whoever it is, hope they bring some feminine qualities to the job unlike the last one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, July 7, 2016, 16:02:31
Girl Power. Next PM to be a woman then.

Whoever it is, hope they bring some feminine qualities to the job unlike the last one.

Very much like nanny has to clear up the mess after the naughty school boys have had their fun.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, July 7, 2016, 16:26:36
Very much like nanny has to clear up the mess after the naughty school boys have had their fun.

Not quite. Was thinking more along the lines of showing a bit of empathy for the downtrodden masses.

The party line will override any of that though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, July 7, 2016, 16:39:12
Girl Power. Next PM to be a woman then.

Whoever it is, hope they bring some feminine qualities to the job unlike the last one.

You do have an idea who Theresa May is, right?

(https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13620199_10154990313177892_749600984588016873_n.jpg?oh=e57e84609cb0f8a9fdfebc8fb5f053ca&oe=57F4946F)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, July 7, 2016, 16:52:34
Not quite. Was thinking more along the lines of showing a bit of empathy for the downtrodden masses.

The party line will override any of that though.

Here's a small sample of the people voting for our next PM.   I have every faith in their judgement  :)

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/d85c3a1257df20c3fb3cc66ca21a534b7900277b/0_178_683_410/master/683.jpg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=8ef6cf6b30db27fd57cd7339f543018c)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, July 7, 2016, 17:03:40
You do have an idea who Theresa May is, right?


Oh yes. Just expressing a forlorn hope.

Another Margaret in the making.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, July 7, 2016, 17:06:41
Here's a small sample of the people voting for our next PM.   I have every faith in their judgement  :)

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/d85c3a1257df20c3fb3cc66ca21a534b7900277b/0_178_683_410/master/683.jpg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=8ef6cf6b30db27fd57cd7339f543018c)

A rainbow nation in action.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, July 7, 2016, 17:27:51
 You'd imagine there's a few swivel eyed loons in this lot.....they did go for IDS a few years back, so Leadsom it is, as the Brexit candidate.

 Tbf, I hadn't even heard of the woman until the other day....apparently does a nice line in Cameron style tax evasion so should be right down the Tory voters street.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, July 7, 2016, 17:48:19
Tbf, I hadn't even heard of the woman until the other day....apparently does a nice line in Cameron style tax evasion so should be right down the Tory voters street.

And a good line in bullshit and exaggeration too.

Claims to have had an illustrious 25 year career in financial services, whereas nobody in the City has actually ever heard of her.

Quite scarily, she's all for deregulation of almost everything too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 7, 2016, 19:31:47
The Tory party is about to become even more Torier.  Yay.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, July 7, 2016, 20:00:02
Quite scarily, she's all for deregulation of almost everything too.

I kind of get the logic of the Brexit case is to tear up worker's rights, environmental concerns and other things which might hinder the pursuit of profit.  People voted for this, so the logic is it should be delivered...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, July 11, 2016, 10:39:10
Leadsom pulling out at noon (after newspapers viciously printed what she said, turns out being PM involves thinking about what you say before saying it), which means Theresa May is more or less PM.

Oh, and Eagle is challenging Corbyn today, and that will all end up in court. Politics is a bit of a mess really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 11, 2016, 10:57:00
Leadsom pulling out at noon (after newspapers viciously printed what she said, turns out being PM involves thinking about what you say before saying it), which means Theresa May is more or less PM.

Oh, and Eagle is challenging Corbyn today, and that will all end up in court. Politics is a bit of a mess really.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36763208

Not clear whether the abuse to which she refers is that which she directed towards May or that directed against her?

Looks like Teresa Mays well planned referendum fence sitting has worked?

Be interesting to see what the majority of the Labour MP's who voted against Corbyn will actually do, if they had principles one would expect them to fuck off now and form a new centre left party, which could also combine with the centre right Tories and Lib Dems and give the old school a kicking at a likely forthcoming election, but that would mean possibly sacfificing their seats and thus having to extract their noses from the trough


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 11, 2016, 11:01:05
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36763208

Not clear whether the abuse to which she refers is that which she directed towards May or that directed against her?

Looks like Teresa Mays well planned referendum fence sitting has worked?

Be interesting to see what the majority of the Labour MP's who voted against Corbyn will actually do, if they had principles one would expect them to fuck off now and form a new centre left party, which could also combine with the centre right Tories and Lib Dems and give the old school a kicking at a likely forthcoming election, but that would mean possibly sacfificing their seats and thus having to extract their noses from the trough

Apparently a Leadsom win would have tempted moderate Tories to join a new centre party....now that won't happen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, July 11, 2016, 11:29:25
Andrea Leadsom was simply given a small taste of the kind of pressure she would be under every single day were she to become PM; pressure that Cameron (and his predecessors) has mopped up routinely.  I think it demonstrates quite clearly that the fears of those who thought she did not have the requisite experience were entirely founded.  She's not ready.  She was simply the next best thing that Leaverish-tending Tory MPs had to rally around after the main contenders had killed each other's political careers.  Somebody had to occupy the vacuum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, July 11, 2016, 11:36:00
And I wouldn't bank on Article 50 being triggered now any time soon.  Unlike Leadsom, May will be in no rush at all.

I guess it also puts pressure on Cameron to forego his finally farewell jolly with the other G8 leaders and to move aside ASAP.  Keeping May in the wings until Sep 9th now looks daft.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, July 11, 2016, 11:37:20
Andrea Leadsom was simply given a small taste of the kind of pressure she would be under every single day were she to become PM; pressure that Cameron (and his predecessors) has mopped up routinely.  I think it demonstrates quite clearly that the fears of those who thought she did not have the requisite experience were entirely founded.  She's not ready.  She was simply the next best thing that Leaverish-tending Tory MPs had to rally around after the main contenders had killed each other's political careers.  Somebody had to occupy the vacuum.

Indeed. How the Vote Leave types have torpedoed eachother's chances in a few weeks is really quite impressive. Can't say I like May's politics much, but she's experienced and competent and that really has to be a minimum expectation to be PM. Get her in place ASAP and let's move on from a horrible few weeks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 11, 2016, 11:47:42
Indeed. How the Vote Leave types have torpedoed eachother's chances in a few weeks is really quite impressive. Can't say I like May's politics much, but she's experienced and competent and that really has to be a minimum expectation to be PM. Get her in place ASAP and let's move on from a horrible few weeks.

May will be OK, Gove has endorsed her now.

Sadly I think many of the leading Brexiters had a severe attack of the Lib Dems realising its very easy to promise the world but often nigh impossible to deliver when you have to?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, July 11, 2016, 11:51:32
Everyone seems quite pleased? The thought of Theresa My as PM genuinely terrifies me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, July 11, 2016, 11:53:04
Everyone seems quite pleased? The thought of Theresa My as PM genuinely terrifies me.
That's because Leadsom was even more terrifying. But I do wonder whether she was ever a serious contender or just a put-up job to placate the Leavers/wider country that there had been some kind of selection process rather than a simple coronation (which is in effect what we're getting)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Monday, July 11, 2016, 11:55:03
Everyone seems quite pleased? The thought of Theresa My as PM genuinely terrifies me.

I wouldn't say "pleased", but between her or Leadsom she's probably the lesser of two cunts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, July 11, 2016, 11:55:59
So technically we will have an unelected PM.

Same when Brown took over from Phoney Tony.

Demoncracy in action.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 11, 2016, 11:57:12
That's because Leadsom was even more terrifying. But I do wonder whether she was ever a serious contender or just a put-up job to placate the Leavers/wider country that there had been some kind of selection process rather than a simple coronation (which is in effect what we're getting)

Indeed Leadsom was proper mental material, scarily May is the moderate choice.... I still suspect its something of a poison chalice as there is going to be some seriously rocky shit over the next 2 years, just leaving the door open for Boris to ride over the hill and appear to save the country - not that I am suggesting he is that cynical and all that!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 11, 2016, 11:57:46
So technically we will have an unelected PM.

Same when Brown took over from Phoney Tony.

Demoncracy in action.


Yeah but we have got our sovereignty back......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 11, 2016, 11:58:03
So technically we will have an unelected PM.

Same when Brown took over from Phoney Tony.

Demoncracy in action.


No.  We elect a party....the party elects its leader. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 11, 2016, 12:00:27
No.  We elect a party....the party elects its leader. 

Indeed although on  more general party level we have a party elected on a manifesto which had little scope for delivery as they have veered violently to the right?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 11, 2016, 12:03:26
I don't often agree with Alistair Campbell but he seems fairly spot on here...

'So there we are. A referendum that was about the people choosing our leaders has led to a new PM being decided by one very silly interview'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, July 11, 2016, 12:06:34
I don't often agree with Alistair Campbell but he seems fairly spot on here...

'So there we are. A referendum that was about the people choosing our leaders has led to a new PM being decided by one very silly interview'

At least we've 'taken back control' though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 11, 2016, 12:12:37
Indeed although on  more general party level we have a party elected on a manifesto which had little scope for delivery as they have veered violently to the right?

Cameron promised a referendum in the manifesto and deliverd one. The Tories promised austerity,immigration control and budget suplus and have failed to deliver it, I'm sure their right wing would conclude, they're far too liberal. Fuck knows how the withdrawal from the EU is going to played out against this background of incompetence. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, July 11, 2016, 12:22:49
At least we've 'taken back control' though.
That's what happens when no quit Dave quits and tucks his ball under his arm and stomps off. If he had been a leader instead of a cheerleader then it would have been different regardless of brexit result.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, July 11, 2016, 12:22:52
I thought I heard on the radio this morning that May would be far less inclined to continue with austerity...at least to the same degree?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 11, 2016, 12:32:53
I thought I heard on the radio this morning that May would be far less inclined to continue with austerity...at least to the same degree?

Osborne effectively binned austerity last week....acknowledging the Brexit hit would make his budget suplus goal by 2020 impossible.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Monday, July 11, 2016, 12:41:04
And I wouldn't bank on Article 50 being triggered now any time soon.  Unlike Leadsom, May will be in no rush at all.

I guess it also puts pressure on Cameron to forego his finally farewell jolly with the other G8 leaders and to move aside ASAP.  Keeping May in the wings until Sep 9th now looks daft.

In my view invoking Article 50 should be delayed or invoked with a caveat of an extension of an additional couple of years with agreement of other member states. Thus giving us time.

We need to have experienced civil servants in place to conduct the negotiations but unfortunately we no longer have the quantity of experienced civil servants, as over 43 years this process has been outsourced to Brussels. Thus we need to employ rather quickly experienced negotiators

I personally don't expect, as a result, Article 50 to be invoked before the New Year.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 11, 2016, 12:50:09
In my view invoking Article 50 should be delayed or invoked with a caveat of an extension of an additional couple of years with agreement of other member states. Thus giving us time.

We need to have experienced civil servants in place to conduct the negotiations but unfortunately we no longer have the quantity of experienced civil servants, as over 43 years this process has been outsourced to Brussels. Thus we need to employ rather quickly experienced negotiators

I personally don't expect, as a result, Article 50 to be invoked before the New Year.



It requires primary legislation to invoke Article 50 anyway so it isn't going to be a quick process, plus add a potential election into the mix not sure what will happen?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 11, 2016, 12:50:38
In my view invoking Article 50 should be delayed or invoked with a caveat of an extension of an additional couple of years with agreement of other member states. Thus giving us time.

We need to have experienced civil servants in place to conduct the negotiations but unfortunately we no longer have the quantity of experienced civil servants, as over 43 years this process has been outsourced to Brussels. Thus we need to employ rather quickly experienced negotiators

I personally don't expect, as a result, Article 50 to be invoked before the New Year.



The first thing that needs to happen is for May to reshuffle the deck chairs on the Titanic, presumably high profile Brexiteers will be put into the key ministries....as they wanted this shit, so should get on with it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Monday, July 11, 2016, 12:53:03
So technically we will have an unelected PM.

Same when Brown took over from Phoney Tony.

Demoncracy in action.


There is a level of Democracy with this though.  Cameron was never going to hang around if he lost the referendum, so those voting leave were also voting for new leadership.  So to a certain extent the democratic vote has got what it wanted, just not a choice of the replacement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 11, 2016, 12:55:32
Well, what an unbelievable mess. The Brexiters in a position to lead have fled or shot themselves in the foot.

Great.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Monday, July 11, 2016, 13:00:02
It requires primary legislation to invoke Article 50 anyway so it isn't going to be a quick process, plus add a potential election into the mix not sure what will happen?

Nope, it merely requires Royal Prerogative by the PM to invoke Article 50


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Monday, July 11, 2016, 13:02:28
Well, what an unbelievable mess. The Brexiters in a position to lead have fled or shot themselves in the foot.

Great.

It's not a mess at all...it's fine, we'll stay in the Single Market and the day we leave will be the same as the day before and everyone will say "what was the fuss about"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, July 11, 2016, 13:08:13
There is a level of Democracy with this though.  Cameron was never going to hang around if he lost the referendum, so those voting leave were also voting for new leadership.  So to a certain extent the democratic vote has got what it wanted, just not a choice of the replacement.

Although he did initially say, that in the event of a leave vote he would trigger article 50 straight away and lead the negotiations. etc

He might have got away with standing firm and off of the back of a potential cabinet reshuffle favouring prominent leavers.

It's a right mess, pun intended, where political opportunism has
hijacked the so called will of the people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 11, 2016, 13:09:56
Nope, it merely requires Royal Prerogative by the PM to invoke Article 50

That's not the line that a Barrister told me last week, there is all manner of legal permutations and wrangling's already going on regarding this (according to him anyway!)

Edit - found it, his notes included the following:-

The first point that should be clearly understood is that the result of last week’s referendum is not binding in any way. It has no legal status, and does not oblige the government or parliament to give effect to its outcome. Secondly, eminent constitutional experts have pointed out that Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty can only lawfully be invoked by an Act of Parliament. The royal prerogative that ministers exercise on behalf of the Crown, which includes (at least nominally) the power to make treaties and to declare war, does not extend to the formal procedure for leaving the EU, because our membership of the EU is enshrined in our primary legislation, and an amending Act would therefore be required to start the process leading to the UK’s departure from the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 11, 2016, 13:12:05
There is a level of Democracy with this though.  Cameron was never going to hang around if he lost the referendum, so those voting leave were also voting for new leadership.  So to a certain extent the democratic vote has got what it wanted, just not a choice of the replacement.

There was plenty on social media to suggest that to many it was a referendum on Cameron's leadership, unfortunately Boris didn't stay around long enough to complete the job.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Monday, July 11, 2016, 13:21:02
That's not the line that a Barrister told me last week, there is all manner of legal permutations and wrangling's already going on regarding this (according to him anyway!)

The Lisbon Treaty was ratified by Parliament by due process, including Article 50. The documents were then deposited in Rome (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7511281.stm), in compliance with international law, thus Parliament has already agreed to Article 50 being used.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 11, 2016, 13:26:08
The Lisbon Treaty was ratified by Parliament by due process, including Article 50. The documents were then deposited in Rome (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7511281.stm), in compliance with international law, thus Parliament has already agreed to Article 50 being used.

You are probably right, its way outside my area of legal expertise I am merely passing on what the Barrister was stating in advice?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, July 11, 2016, 13:43:35
the party elects its leader. 

Not in this case though.

If there was to be an election, which I don't think there will be, would they get another five years or would it be just a validation of the current term to 2020.

If it's the former, then given the state of the opposition they might as well go for it.

Following a promising start for Brown, he may well have won had an election been called on becoming PM.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, July 11, 2016, 14:21:49
In my view invoking Article 50 should be delayed or invoked with a caveat of an extension of an additional couple of years with agreement of other member states. Thus giving us time.

We need to have experienced civil servants in place to conduct the negotiations but unfortunately we no longer have the quantity of experienced civil servants, as over 43 years this process has been outsourced to Brussels. Thus we need to employ rather quickly experienced negotiators

I personally don't expect, as a result, Article 50 to be invoked before the New Year.



Even if we served Article 50 right now, it would be longer than 2 years of negotiations.  The two year period is just for us to negotiate leaving terms (if they are even agreed to at all, as they need to be ratified by the remaining members).  After that, we get to begin trade deal negotiations, which could be another few years.

The sooner we get on with it all the better.

In terms of legality, either side seems confident, but either way, any politician NOT enacting the will of a referendum would probably be a bit of a sitting duck.

I really don't get people moaning about a lack of democracy, we vote for a local politician to represent our area - the fact everyone chooses to vote by colours is irrelevant, the leader of that party and hence PM isn't anywhere near the ballot paper.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, July 11, 2016, 15:04:50

I really don't get people moaning about a lack of democracy, we vote for a local politician to represent our area - the fact everyone chooses to vote by colours is irrelevant, the leader of that party and hence PM isn't anywhere near the ballot paper.

Agreed, that in certain areas people would vote for a turd if it was decorated with a red or blue rosette.

However a large percentage of so called swing voters or undecideds would also look at the quality of the person putting themselves forward as PM, with, rghtly or wrongly, "strength" being the perceived and preferred quality of choice for being the right "leader".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 11, 2016, 15:34:46
Interestingly May becomes the 13th PM in the reign of QE II.....I'm surprised it's quite so many, but I've been alive for all of them. 9 Tories and 4 Labour. My favourite was Churchill  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, July 11, 2016, 15:53:14
Churchill.

Pah. Sold out Eastern Europe and the very country that Britain went to war over.

Exactly the same sort of appeasement that Chamberlain was villified for, except this time it was to Uncle Joe.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 11, 2016, 16:10:03
Pah. Sold out Eastern Europe and the very country that Britain went to war over.

Exactly the same sort of appeasement that Chamberlain was villified for, except this time it was to Uncle Joe.

It perhaps took a while but Poland was eventually liberated so that its young men and women could come to Blighty in their millions, for the fellas to be gainfully employed as plumbers, and the lasses brightening up many a bar the length and breadth of our sceptre'd isle, with their service.

It was no easy task, besting the 3rdReich, PdC's boys, and the Vichy French....which meant Uncle Joe's lot had to wait.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, July 11, 2016, 16:34:51
It perhaps took a while but Poland was eventually liberated so that its young men and women could come to Blighty in their millions, for the fellas to be gainfully employed as plumbers, and the lasses brightening up many a bar the length and breadth of our sceptre'd isle, with their service.

It was no easy task, besting the 3rdReich, PdC's boys, and the Vichy French....which meant Uncle Joe's lot had to wait.

Nicely spun.
The Battle of Britain would not have been won without the significant contribution of Polish, Czech & Commonwealth pilots.

A shameful episode in post war British history is the refusal by the Atlee Labour government to allow the participation of the Polish pilots in the victory parade in 1946, a decision, to their eternal credit, protested by the RAF high command at the time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 11, 2016, 17:47:48
The Battle of Britain would not have been won without the significant contribution of Polish, Czech & Commonwealth pilots.

Nor without the efforts of the Stakhanovite working class men and women who laboured long and hard in difficult conditions to turn out the planes to be flown, and the armaments to be used.

They weren't invited on parade by the Attlee government either, but did get the long slow struggle for the NHS and other welfare reforms as their thanks.

Interesting today that May said stuff, which could have quite easily tripped off Ed Miliband's tongue, (along with a bacon sandwich). As a daughter of the manse a la Gordon Brown, although of course in his case son, it will be interesting to see if she was lying. Having had 6 years of Cameron/Osborne its easy to believe that it's just what politicians do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Monday, July 11, 2016, 17:53:28
Here comes your emergency services being privatised.

Group 4 i am looking at you


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, July 11, 2016, 17:58:04
Here comes your emergency services being privatised.

Group 4 i am looking at you
tbf Tans G4S have proven themselves a safe pair of hands from nearly but not quite securing the Olympics through to abusing and murdering refugees while hoovering up huge amounts of taxpayers' money in the process. So, grotesquely inefficient and inept at every part of the process other than trousering the cash. Exactly the qualities governments look for in a privatisation partner.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, July 11, 2016, 18:01:14
Having had 6 years of Cameron/Osborne its easy to believe that it's just what politicians do.
Nick Clegg may also have made his own contribution to that impression. But they all pale into insignifcance compared to the 10 years we spent being lied to by the grandmaster of the art, the war criminal Blair.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 11, 2016, 20:40:27
It's not a mess at all...it's fine, we'll stay in the Single Market and the day we leave will be the same as the day before and everyone will say "what was the fuss about"

That's some assumption. Presumably you think we'll have to agree to freedom of movement too in order to stay in?

I'd be happy with that. Not sure everyone will though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 11, 2016, 20:45:12
That's some assumption. Presumably you think we'll have to agree to freedom of movement too in order to stay in?

I'd be happy with that. Not sure everyone will though.

You also have to pay for the privilege.  If it works out that way, what was the point in voting to leave? Other than create a recession so movement will be out rather than in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: manc_red on Monday, July 11, 2016, 20:48:24
You are probably right, its way outside my area of legal expertise I am merely passing on what the Barrister was stating in advice?

This issue will be decided by the High Court in a couple of class actions starting next week.

I'd imagine appeals all the way up to the Supreme Court are a distinct possibility, so even being fast tracked, it may not be resolved for a year or so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Monday, July 11, 2016, 21:47:43
That's what happens when no quit Dave quits and tucks his ball under his arm and stomps off. If he had been a leader instead of a cheerleader then it would have been different regardless of brexit result.

I did let on that he'd had enough before the last general election...

Against my better nature, I have to disagree.  

Cameron in person is hugely likeable and massively charismatic, and is desperate to get out of the tiresome political arena and into light entertainment.  He's wasted as PM!  He sees himself as a cross between the re-invented Portillo and Ant or Dec, cracking jokes on a train towards the jungle on a Saturday TV teatime coming soon.    That way he stays one step ahead of that conceited blond clown, securing a place as the nation's sweetheart, and becoming either Brucie or Des Lynam, depending on Rupert's puppet plans for him.

Please help David find his vocation, follow his dreams and don't make him do all this again...after all, this is such an important election for his career prospects.

OK, I maybe haven't been 100% on the detail but the point stands - Dave's had other plans for a little while...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 12, 2016, 08:46:38
Interesting take on the issue of Corbyn and his position on the ballot paper from Neil Kinnock

http://www.newstatesman.com/2016/07/neil-kinnock-when-corbyn-wanted-me-deposed-i-sought-nominations-mps

The fact that one arm of the party could potentially find itself taking legal action against another just shows how divided they are now, for the general good of the country and to provide some sort of credible opposition the party needs to split ASAP into a centre left v. hard left hybrid to give something credible for all to vote for in any forthcoming election. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 12, 2016, 09:41:38
At least now May is in waiting we can move onto the important issues of politics

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36772515?intlink_from_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Flive%2Fuk-politics-36570120&&post_id=10152902182188513_10153732994413513#38;link_location=live-reporting-story


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, July 12, 2016, 15:59:06
That's some assumption. Presumably you think we'll have to agree to freedom of movement too in order to stay in?

I'd be happy with that. Not sure everyone will though.

Coming out of the EU will be a process not an event, rather like India removing themselves from the British Raj - they simply "nationalised" the legislation onto their statute book. We will have to do the same

The EU has been a process towards anti-democratic politic union albeit a project which is not yet finished (engrenage (http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=84257)). This will be similar to Brexit; it will be a process not an event. In terms of access to the single market, - the European Economic Area (EEA) agreements - there are provisions to unilaterally suspend the four freedoms within an EEA agreement (Article 112). Liechtenstein has done this with free movement of workers and Iceland did this with free movement of capital (http://thefrogsalittlehot.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/government-by-fax-eea-member-iceland.html) after the collapse of Icesave.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, July 12, 2016, 16:47:02
Interesting today that May said stuff, which could have quite easily tripped off Ed Miliband's tongue, (along with a bacon sandwich). As a daughter of the manse a la Gordon Brown, although of course in his case son, it will be interesting to see if she was lying. Having had 6 years of Cameron/Osborne its easy to believe that it's just what politicians do.

A quiz on the very point.....I got 10/12

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/12/who-said-it-theresa-may-or-ed-miliband


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, July 13, 2016, 19:26:34
Boris as foreign secretary. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Jeez.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, July 13, 2016, 19:27:35
cry.

HTH


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: OrangeTransits on Wednesday, July 13, 2016, 19:27:56
Boris as foreign secretary. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Jeez.

I laughed so much I cried.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Wednesday, July 13, 2016, 20:17:08
Hahahhahahahahahahaa that is hilarious.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 13, 2016, 20:23:29
Well at least it removes any uncertainty over whether or not we will be seen as a global laughing stock in the wake of Brexit and the subsequent fall-out. Suspect May's just giving him enough rope for the silly twat to hang himself, it's just whether he takes us all with him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, July 13, 2016, 20:39:10
In fairness, Boris was made foreign sec and then moments later, two new departments (Brexit and International Trade) were carved out of foreign office territory, making his role basically just going round the world and apologising, which he has plenty of experience of anyway.

The person who is going to be particularly interested is Liam Fox, who's been put in charge of delivery all Vote Leave's wild promises about being able to trade with the whole world. I imagine his performance reviews will be against his own speeches...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 13, 2016, 21:11:43
In fairness, Boris was made foreign sec and then moments later, two new departments (Brexit and International Trade) were carved out of foreign office territory, making his role basically just going round the world and apologising, which he has plenty of experience of anyway.
Boris Johnson is now Britain's leading diplomat. Let that thought roll round in your head a bit. Yet again, the interests of the nation have been sacrificed for the sake of internal Tory politics.

The person who is going to be particularly interested is Liam Fox, who's been put in charge of delivery all Vote Leave's wild promises about being able to trade with the whole world. I imagine his performance reviews will be against his own speeches...
The fact that the disgraced Liam Fox has the brass neck to consider himself suitable for any office is appalling. The fact he has got one, and an important one at that, is if anything even more depressing than Harpo the Fucking Clown at the Foreign Office


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Wednesday, July 13, 2016, 21:14:48
BUT BOJO AND HIS FUNNY HAIR BANTER HAHAhahaha

What happened to the cat? They made a big deal out of him staying at No. 10, it must have been for a reason. Can't we just put him in charge for a bit?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 13, 2016, 21:15:56
What happened to the cat? They made a big deal out of him staying at No. 10, it must have been for a reason.
That's May's familiar


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Wednesday, July 13, 2016, 21:18:20
One pussy staying but a cunt moving in, I getcha.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 13, 2016, 21:31:04
Oh Jesus, someone's just pointed out on the radio, BJ's now in charge of MI6. Fucking hell


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Wednesday, July 13, 2016, 23:45:24
Boris Johnson is now Britain's leading diplomat. Let that thought roll round in your head a bit. Yet again, the interests of the nation have been sacrificed for the sake of internal Tory politics.
The fact that the disgraced Liam Fox has the brass neck to consider himself suitable for any office is appalling. The fact he has got one, and an important one at that, is if anything even more depressing than Harpo the Fucking Clown at the Foreign Office

Not sure that May has been canny in putting Boris in charge of the FO means dumping him somewhere else in the world while the real business of Brexit happens without him. There will be a specialised office dealing with brexit negotiations


Title: Re:
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 06:23:28
Just think of the favours Fox can do for his mates now he has the international trade portfolio to dish out....

The international community response to Boris's appointment merely  reinforces our newly created position of comedy nation....

Boris Johnson is foreign secretary: The world reacts - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-36790977

 and we dare to act all superior to the idea of Trump being president....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 06:28:22
Fair comment re Trump/Boris - but at least we have the get out that an unelected PM has appointed him. That's democracy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 06:37:08
Fair comment re Trump/Boris - but at least we have the get out that an unelected PM has appointed him. That's democracy.

We don't elect a PM anyway  :)


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 08:12:06
technically no. But in reality I think quite a few take who is likely to be pm in as much regard as the party manifesto..

taking of which, what % of the manifesto/policy is now implementable? I swear they are on to making it up as they go along now....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 08:28:52
technically no. But in reality I think quite a few take who is likely to be pm in as much regard as the party manifesto..

taking of which, what % of the manifesto/policy is now implementable? I swear they are on to making it up as they go doing now....

Equally I suspect that Boris would not have been considered for such a high ranking job had the leave side not adopted him as their figurehead and followed his promises, seems a bit of a win, win, win for him really, gets rid of Cameron and settles the Eton/Oxford battle, gets a high ranking job without the distracting ball ache of actually delivering on any of his promises, which will be the task of Davies, Fox and May - still leaves it open for the saviour to return at a later date when his acolytes realise it was all founded on sand really. Boris has played a jolly clever game.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 10:13:43
Gove, Osborne, Hunt & Morgan all sacked. Theresa May just made a lot of the public sector very, very happy. Although their replacements probably won't be raving socialists...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 10:37:13
Indeed, suspect that may fall into the category of "Be careful what you wish for"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 10:40:20
Wild celebrations in the BBC Newsroom at the news Whittingdale sacked, according to a hastily deleted tweet


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 11:32:38
Gove, Osborne, Hunt & Morgan all sacked. Theresa May just made a lot of the public sector very, very happy. Although their replacements probably won't be raving socialists...

Remember that we now have a new Chancellor and to quote the BBC 'With a reputation forged in the shadow Treasury team as the Tories' public spending "axeman"' I understand it may be the case that Osbournes assault on public services may seem tame compared with what this lot come up with, whatever she might say Theresa May is no friend of the poor, working class or needy!

Its only going to get worse, the intriguing one is who is going to get health and continue that process, Hunt always seemed to be OK with being universally vilified but I suspect he didn't come up with the policy on his own and thus the face may change but I doubt the policy will.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 11:49:01
At the end of the day Tories will always be Tories, they will look after the self interest of their class, if that coincides with bringing benefits to the lower orders to maintain social cohesion, then sobeit.

For example the postwar governments of Eden, McMillan and Heath were prepared to go along wth one nation Butskillite philosophy, because they feared insurrection and after Suez knew that the Empire and therefore country was fucked.

Now they have no such fears we effectively live in a one party state...

If the Brexit gamble fails to deliver a stronger economy, then opposition may well take other less civilised forms.....worrying times ahead.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 13:09:36
At the end of the day Tories will always be Tories, they will look after the self interest of their class, if that coincides with bringing benefits to the lower orders to maintain social cohesion, then sobeit.

For example the postwar governments of Eden, McMillan and Heath were prepared to go along wth one nation Butskillite philosophy, because they feared insurrection and after Suez knew that the Empire and therefore country was fucked.

Now they have no such fears we effectively live in a one party state...

If the Brexit gamble fails to deliver a stronger economy, then opposition may well take other less civilised forms.....worrying times ahead.

I think insurrection is unlikely if only there is not really anyone charismatic enough for people to get behind, plus most of the population have become meh about many things and don't really care if it doesn't affect them directly. I keep banging on about a centrist party but it would at least give the Tories something to think about, sadly Labour MP's who hate Corbyn seem unable to get off their hands and instead will just remain in the party and whinge to keep their seats, whilst the election of May have headed off any Tory defections, the Lib Dems say various things but rarely beyond their core support (Farron has said some interesting stuff post Brexit but its never made the media) and seem a busted flush and irrelevant at the very time their brand of politics could form a home for many disillusioned voters and MP's.

I suppose in summary we are just fucked!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 13:10:40
technically no. But in reality I think quite a few take who is likely to be pm in as much regard as the party manifesto..

taking of which, what % of the manifesto/policy is now implementable? I swear they are on to making it up as they go along now....

No opposition = do what the fuck they like, but at least we have wrestled our sovereignty back.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 13:21:08
Gove, Osborne, Hunt & Morgan all sacked. Theresa May just made a lot of the public sector very, very happy. Although their replacements probably won't be raving socialists...

Hunt has kept his job apparently


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 13:27:40
Wild celebrations in the BBC Newsroom at the news Whittingdale sacked, according to a hastily deleted tweet
...much celebrating amongst my librarian colleagues too, although it's probably too late to save anything much of Swindon's library service.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 13:35:42
Wild celebrations in the BBC Newsroom at the news Whittingdale sacked, according to a hastily deleted tweet

Isn't the BBC supposed to be neutral...  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 14:05:51
Isn't the BBC supposed to be neutral...  :)
As an institution, yes. But that doesn't stop the individuals employed there having their own opinions on whether or not the Minister is a twat, just so long as they don't allow that to seep into their reports. Same as teachers can think Jeremy Hunt is walking rhyming slang so long as they don't teach the kids that. They just give them the tools to work it out for themselves :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 14:10:15
As an institution, yes. But that doesn't stop the individuals employed there having their own opinions on whether or not the Minister is a twat, just so long as they don't allow that to seep into their reports.

Hang on - according to the Corbynistas the lovely Laura Kuenssberg been doing this for months?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 14:12:23
Hunt has kept his job apparently

I suspect due to health being such a mess no one else wanted it, possibly entirely coincidental but Theresa Villiers tweeted shortly before his staying was confirmed that she had turned down a cabinet position?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 14:23:08
As an institution, yes. But that doesn't stop the individuals employed there having their own opinions on whether or not the Minister is a twat, just so long as they don't allow that to seep into their reports. Same as teachers can think Jeremy Hunt is walking rhyming slang so long as they don't teach the kids that. They just give them the tools to work it out for themselves :)

I knew it :fishing:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, July 14, 2016, 22:06:37
At the end of the day Tories will always be Tories, they will look after the self interest of their class, if that coincides with bringing benefits to the lower orders to maintain social cohesion, then sobeit.

Lowest proportion of privately educated cabinet members (30%) of any government, Labour or Tory, since Attlee in 1945. I know that "Reg blames the Tories" is kind of a running theme on here now, but credit where it's due.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 15, 2016, 09:12:09
Lowest proportion of privately educated cabinet members (30%) of any government, Labour or Tory, since Attlee in 1945. I know that "Reg blames the Tories" is kind of a running theme on here now, but credit where it's due.

As always the proof of the pudding is in the eating.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 15, 2016, 10:12:17
Lowest proportion of privately educated cabinet members (30%) of any government, Labour or Tory, since Attlee in 1945. I know that "Reg blames the Tories" is kind of a running theme on here now, but credit where it's due.

Its probably just me but I am naturally very suspicious of any state educated Tory politician!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, July 15, 2016, 10:38:16
Angela Leadsom has claimed that men shouldn't be carers just in case they turn out to be a paedophile. As I said to PaulD, it's hardly surprising she thinks all men are paedophiles when she is hanging around with Tory MPs for most of the day.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/15/andrea-leadsom-male-carers-might-be-paedophiles-6007891/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 15, 2016, 10:42:13
Can only assume May has included Leadsom in the Cabinet as Minister for "be grateful you got me, look at the fucking nutcase you could have ended up with"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, July 15, 2016, 12:34:53
Its probably just me but I am naturally very suspicious of any Tory politician!

Fixed it for you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 15, 2016, 13:34:51
Fixed it for you.

Fixed for you... 'Its probably just me but I am naturally very suspicious of any Tory politician!'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 25, 2016, 11:57:13
An interesting development, no idea if it can ever work?

http://www.moreunited.uk/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, August 23, 2016, 13:39:06
So now we know what Jeremy Corbyn's 'new politics' consist of;

Lying through his teeth to try and shoe horn a point across https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about/media-room/#/pressreleases/virgin-trains-clarifies-labour-leaders-claim-of-ram-packed-service-1530005

Whilst being accused of racial discrimination by your own shadow ministers http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/22/ex-shadow-minister-accuses-jeremy-corbyn-of-discrimination

I really don't care who the Labour leader is, but it needs someone credible to lead something resembling an opposition and hold the Tories to account.

I wasn't sure whether to put this in the good or bad things thread but wherever its just farcical!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, August 23, 2016, 14:16:38
Pure The Thick of It stuff that, how on earth could they not find a packed train to do that stunt on? Pick the 7:30 to Bristol out of Paddington every week night and you'll have no problem...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, August 23, 2016, 14:29:38
Pure The Thick of It stuff that, how on earth could they not find a packed train to do that stunt on? Pick the 7:30 to Bristol out of Paddington every week night and you'll have no problem...

Yeah they are doing politics but just don't seem very good at it.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Tuesday, August 23, 2016, 15:15:53
Whatever you do just keep believing what they tell you to believe.  The shit the media and the PLP are flinging at him is pretty desperate.  Accusing him of racism is a new low really.

Fuck.  Im starting to sound like a tinfoil hat wearing loon.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, August 23, 2016, 15:37:56
Whatever you do just keep believing what they tell you to believe.  The shit the media and the PLP are flinging at him is pretty desperate.  Accusing him of racism is a new low really.

Fuck.  Im starting to sound like a tinfoil hat wearing loon.



But the simple fact of the matter is we have no idea who to believe do we, story comes out, Corbyn's office says it didn't happen and that's apparently it no challenge, nothing. There has been some pretty unsavoury stuff circulated about Corbyn much of which is essentially libellous and he and his supporters have done nothing, despite being happy to use the courts over the ambiguity of the Labour rule book - parliamentary privilege does not exist outside the house so it would all be very easily put to bed with a writ?!

If nothing else if it is all a premeditated campaign to discredit him it seems considerably more organised than anything else they have done in opposition, I reiterate I don't really care who is leader just someone credible who I would trust to run a jumble sale would be a start. Just imagine if this sort of stuff was coming out from a Tory shadow minister who nominated the leader in the first place.

Anyway get back to wrapping your house in tin foil....   ;), I am going to watch reruns of Citizen Smith!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, August 23, 2016, 16:14:22
Yes, calling out a politician on manufacturing a blatant publicity stunt definitely only ever happens to Saint Jez at the hands of the nasty MSM Red Tory illuminati.

It is absolute tinfoil stuff. I'm left on centre, but Corbyn and the people around him are completely incompetent.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, August 23, 2016, 16:18:34
Yes, calling out a politician on manufacturing a blatant publicity stunt definitely only ever happens to Saint Jez at the hands of the nasty MSM Red Tory illuminati.

It is absolute tinfoil stuff. I'm left on centre, but Corbyn and the people around him are completely incompetent.

Hang on I may have been taken in by Virgin Trains lies, http://www.beyondtheheadlines.co.uk/

No idea what the truth is anymore, although I do hope they believe that fact checking websites are only really credible if they are independent! Somebody over the weekend likened them to a fan club and that seems somewhat apt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Tuesday, August 23, 2016, 16:52:09
There is no truth.  We are in post truth society.  Repeat something often enough and it becomes a fact.

Or am I just old and cynical.  Maybe the media are brave crusading truth sayers and I am the problem.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, August 23, 2016, 18:52:15
The more and more they go after Corbyn, the more and more I like him. I get a vote on the Labour leadership and he has mine. He's probably the most honest mp there is.

I don't believe this was a publicity stunt and it's common knowledge that our trains are bursting with people which should be the issue.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 07:04:31
He's too nice to partake in a publicity stunt or maybe he is just like any other political chasing a bit of power


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 07:28:46
Imagine that. Private healthcare, train company owning tax dodger doesn't like Jeremy Corbyn. Whatever next.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 07:55:46
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/aug/23/jeremy-corbyn-walks-through-packed-carriage-during-11-august-train-trip-video?CMP=share_btn_tw

Well said jayo !


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 08:17:22
Both sides are shit.

Seats with tickets stuck in the top mean reserved to me. Anybody who gets on a train at Nam or Swindon has to hunt for a seat going to the smoke.

More often I have to stand until Reading.

Corbyn should of released a more accurate statement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 08:31:43
Imagine that. Private healthcare, train company owning tax dodger doesn't like Jeremy Corbyn. Whatever next.

I am not sure where it has been suggested that Branson doesn't like Corbyn (apart from within the Corbynista's who work on the principle that if you don't adore Jeremy you must be against him)?

Ultimately Corbyn was prepared to spin a story to try and shoehorn his point across (and as many have pointed out there are hundreds of trains in the country each day that he could have legitimately made the point without the need for bullshitting - from personal experience if he had travelled on the 0724 from Lancaster to Manchester for instance he wouldn't even get the luxury of being able to sit on a floor) and got caught out for being prepared to lie as much as any politician, in doing so he lied about Virgin Trains to do so and thus Branson has responded as would any company owner if their organisation was being smeared in this manner, sorry Jeremy but you play that game you may get bitten back.

Now if they all shut up about this it would quietly go away as its a small story and whilst it does reveal some hypocrisy in the claim that he is any different to any other politician, in the big picture does it really matter, but no we now have Jeremy's spokesmen trying to spin it into come big comment regarding tax evasion, as someone noted above its all very Thick of It and ironically would do Mandelson and Campbell proud.

And still we have no viable opposition to the Tories...... or one likely as once Corbyn wins the roundabout will just continue spinning whilst also giving them more ammunition after piss poor stunts like this....  :no:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 08:39:33
Both sides are shit.

Seats with tickets stuck in the top mean reserved to me. Anybody who gets on a train at Nam or Swindon has to hunt for a seat going to the smoke.

More often I have to stand until Reading.

Corbyn should of released a more accurate statement.

But if they have the cards they also say where they are reserved from - to, again is he had wanted to play that game he should have used Virgin West Coast to make his point where the electronic reservation display just says reserved and is bloody irritating! As he got on at Kings Cross within 5 mins of leaving it would be obvious that anyone reserved from there wasn't going to need the seat so just sit down, I am just thankful he had so many people with him who were prepared to film the incident!

Both sides are indeed shit....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 08:48:25
politicians, all in it for themselves to some degree. Even Corbyn .

doesn't invalidate the point he was trying to make, stupid move all the same though. I don't blame beardy for defending his company at all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 09:03:13
 Corbyn and Branson are of similar age, and both were shaped by the events of their youth.

Corbyn took the radical student politics, drop out from Poly route....Branson embrace the zeitgeist and make money from it route.

I've never really known if Branson got the whole 60's alternative philosphy stuff....but he did look after XTC. Corbyn is merely a Moonraker.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 09:12:33
Ignoring all the political stuff, what point was he trying to make?  That trains are now so popular that we over crowd them?  The end result here would surely be that we should just put more privately run trains on because the system has caused a huge spike in demand since being privatised?

Now, I'm not actually a great advocate of the private train firms, it's all a bit of a mess, and the approach you take would depend on the need for trains.  If we see them as part of a wider transport and infrastructure policy, then something very different needs to be done, as they essentially run local monopolies anyway.  However, overcrowding due to high passenger numbers is hardly the issue I would have though someone looking to nationalize the industry would have wanted to focus on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 09:17:06
Oh dear, do they just not get it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37167253



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 09:38:53
Oh dear, do they just not get it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37167253



I think this is a very deliberate ploy by Smith to appeal to the remain voters within the Labour Party and possibly beyond (which I recall was supposed to be the party policy until Corbyn decided he didn't like it and ignored it) its setting him aside from Corbyn and presenting a second option, as for what the Brexiters within Labour will think I suspect he would cross that bridge when he came to it, as the brexiters within Labour tend to be on the hard left side its not as if they are going to vote for or support him anyway?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 09:47:39
Ignoring all the political stuff, what point was he trying to make?  That trains are now so popular that we over crowd them?  The end result here would surely be that we should just put more privately run trains on because the system has caused a huge spike in demand since being privatised?

Now, I'm not actually a great advocate of the private train firms, it's all a bit of a mess, and the approach you take would depend on the need for trains.  If we see them as part of a wider transport and infrastructure policy, then something very different needs to be done, as they essentially run local monopolies anyway.  However, overcrowding due to high passenger numbers is hardly the issue I would have though someone looking to nationalize the industry would have wanted to focus on.

Not sure how renationalisation would work anyway, either you pay all the franchise holders a small fortune to give up the franchises (likely to run into billions) or alternatively you wait for the franchises to end then take it back in house, but as they are negotiating 10 + year franchises at the moment this would take us beyond even the next parliament so would depend on all sides of the political arena agreeing to continue the policy if they got into power. In addition this doesn't even take into account that all the rolling stock is owned by third party leasing companies and thus the government would have to buy all that back as well again at a cost of possibly billions.

And no idea what they would do about Network Rail and all the infrastructure?

Sadly again its a policy designed to appeal to the masses but on the hope that no one really thinks about it too much. FWIW the main problem of crowding is due to limited capacity on the system and that's mainly down to Network Rail which is an arms length public body of the Department for Transport, with no shareholders and not privatised.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 09:51:48
Not sure how renationalisation would work anyway, either you pay all the franchise holders a small fortune to give up the franchises (likely to run into billions) or alternatively you wait for the franchises to end then take it back in house, but as they are negotiating 10 + year franchises at the moment this would take us beyond even the next parliament so would depend on all sides of the political arena agreeing to continue the policy if they got into power. In addition this doesn't even take into account that all the rolling stock is owned by third party leasing companies and thus the government would have to buy all that back as well again at a cost of possibly billions.

And no idea what they would do about Network Rail and all the infrastructure?

Sadly again its a policy designed to appeal to the masses but on the hope that no one really thinks about it too much. FWIW the main problem of crowding is due to limited capacity on the system and that's mainly down to Network Rail which is an arms length public body of the Department for Transport, with no shareholders and not privatised.

Nationalisation is against EU rules, and will certainly contravene TTIP when the Tories eventually get round to Brexit. Of course, it could happen if if we vote for a Corbyn government post Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 10:04:46
Nationalisation is against EU rules, and will certainly contravene TTIP when the Tories eventually get round to Brexit. Of course, it could happen if if we vote for a Corbyn government post Brexit.

Could it? How easy would it be for Corbyn to extract us from TTIP, or will that need another referendum?

There is still the elephant in the room of basic practicality and cost, which is on top of the £500bn that he has promised for infrastructure projects....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 10:27:22
Could it? How easy would it be for Corbyn to extract us from TTIP, or will that need another referendum?

There is still the elephant in the room of basic practicality and cost, which is on top of the £500bn that he has promised for infrastructure projects....

Scrap Trident....


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 10:46:52
Scrap Trident....
So that's £205bn roughly (not taking into account that Corbyns policy is to build the submarines, thus avoiding pissing off the union's and condemning Barrow in Furness to ruin, but not arming them), and the rest?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: skiptotheLouMacari on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 10:59:10
Scrap Trident....

Yeah great scrap our deterrent just whilst Gok Wan in North Korea starts to fix his muscles.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 12:33:58
I'm also finding it odd that Corbyn seems keen to make this about Branson.  Now, I get he's probably anti anyone with such a position, but surely some street smarts would advise the right battles to pick when trying to take on the "elite".  Branson is not exactly a public figure of hate!

The Tories must be loving this.  They could be the most incompetent party ever to win a landslide at the next election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 12:48:27
I'm also finding it odd that Corbyn seems keen to make this about Branson.  Now, I get he's probably anti anyone with such a position, but surely some street smarts would advise the right battles to pick when trying to take on the "elite".  Branson is not exactly a public figure of hate!

The Tories must be loving this.  They could be the most incompetent party ever to win a landslide at the next election.

I am not sure its personal about Branson, more a natural response to strike out and try to discredit the person who has held them to account and Branson's tax affairs are an open goal that they know the Corbynista's will lap it up and it can deflect any questions about the train thingy.

Corbyn isn't handling the subsequent media questioning particularly well, he reminds me of someone I used to work with who was all cool and nice on the surface but if he was ever challenged on anything turned into a petulant 8 year old. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37173048



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Simon Pieman on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 13:27:59
It’s rather unfortunate that Corbyn has started to utilise spin and the tit-for-tat blame game. He probably doesn’t have a choice, but it discredits the state of politics further and equally Corbyn’s let the politics do the talking philosophy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Hitchinred on Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 19:01:44

I've never really known if Branson got the whole 60's alternative philosphy stuff....but he did look after XTC.

I think XTC might disagree based on their George Michaelesque strike for four years to exit their contract. Think Virgin made about £30m out of XTC whereas the contract they signed certainly didn't leave them much better off than when they started.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: thepeoplesgame on Thursday, August 25, 2016, 09:46:17
I think XTC might disagree based on their George Michaelesque strike for four years to exit their contract. Think Virgin made about £30m out of XTC whereas the contract they signed certainly didn't leave them much better off than when they started.

"Never trust a hippie." John Lydon


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, August 25, 2016, 11:07:00
"Never trust a hippie." John Lydon Ed Tudor-Pole.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: thepeoplesgame on Thursday, August 25, 2016, 12:50:00


I stand corrected. Sentiment still valid.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Thursday, August 25, 2016, 14:19:12
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/74/dc/7e/74dc7e522c5b1d0d5d1dc1c4e0aca359.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, September 5, 2016, 08:22:25
 See the Japs, have sent May a letter, saying post Brexit unless GB stays in the something resembling the single market, their companies will be out of the UK, at their earliest convenience.   That'll be Honda gone then.

 Although I voted Remain, I think it's inevitable that to achieve a proper Brexit, the economy is going to have to take a hit, before it can realign and accrue any of the potential benefits of Brexit.  A Norway style fudge, where you're essentially in but without getting any say on what happens seems particularly pointless.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Monday, September 5, 2016, 08:30:00
Obama said pretty much the same thing, not that he will have anything to do with future trade deals mind you


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, September 5, 2016, 08:31:16
Surely it's up to Honda et al what they do?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, September 5, 2016, 08:47:32
Surely it's up to Honda et al what they do?

Japanese companies like to plan for the long term...the problem with Brexit, is that no-one seems to have a plan or know what it means.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, September 5, 2016, 08:48:20
of course they will apply any pressure possible to get what's best for Japan. whether it's genuine is another matter.

far too early to say Brexit is a success, or a failure. it's going to take years.

(as a remainer, I'm hoping we remain in the single market and Japan's/world's pressure works)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, September 5, 2016, 08:49:04
Quote from: Reg Smeeton
..the problem with Brexit, is that no-one seems to have a plan or know what it means.

exactly right!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 5, 2016, 08:52:42
Japanese companies like to plan for the long term...the problem with Brexit, is that no-one seems to have a plan or know what it means.

Not sure how it works with Honda but I know with Nissan that the factories essentially have to tender to head office when new models come on line to get the work. As much of the attractiveness of Sunderland is that it allows unfettered access to the EU there is already a lot of fear that they are going to lose out to other factories when this happens, especially as Nissan are tied up with Renault and thus there is a lot of capacity in France that will be able to take up the slack - somewhat ironic given that Sunderland voted a resounding out!  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 5, 2016, 08:56:14
Obama said pretty much the same thing, not that he will have anything to do with future trade deals mind you

Whilst Obama is on his way out I suspect that the timing of trade deals has little to do with who is in the White House, despite what IDS and Rees-Mogg are desperately trying to spin this morning, certain elements of which (the suggestion that Obama is no friend of the UK) have a Trump/Corbynesque paranoia about them.

I suspect that as the Tories ideologically roughly align with TTIP we may jump to the front of the queue somewhat as the drafting in that document can be rolled over to a UK/US trade deal once the EU reject it formally (and we were told it was an inevitability if we stayed in the EU)?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, September 5, 2016, 08:58:09
of course they will apply any pressure possible to get what's best for Japan. whether it's genuine is another matter.

far too early to say Brexit is a success, or a failure. it's going to take years.

(as a remainer, I'm hoping we remain in the single market and Japan's/world's pressure works)

Aside from the atrocities of WWII, I like Japanese cultural sensibilities...honour, politeness and a really cool way of making a cup of tea.  So, although they'll do what's best for Japan, I do think it's a genuine threat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Monday, September 5, 2016, 12:25:10
Surely it's up to Honda et al what they do?

Yes, but one of the reasons they build cars in Europe to have access to the single market. If we aren't part of it they would be better off in a country that is


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Monday, September 5, 2016, 15:34:24
Japanese companies like to plan for the long term...the problem with Brexit, is that no-one seems to have a plan or know what it means.

Brexit means brexit. Theresa May said so.

Of course brexit is not a real word.

Therefore, brexit means nothing.

QED.😉


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Tuesday, September 27, 2016, 16:47:27
Did anyone see the Trump v Clinton debate earlier this morning?  I've just finished watching it.  I'd already formed my opinion about Trump but knew less about Clinton other than what I'd read in the media.  I thought she came across pretty well, albeit like a typical politician (if that makes sense).  Knew her stuff, stayed calm and pretty rational - whether you agree with her politics is another matter.

Trump, on the other hand, came across as just bizarre to me.  Very easily goaded, constantly interrupting, rarely giving a straight answer, generally poor on detail and the use of some of the strangest non-sequiturs you could imagine.

If that was a UK election debate, he would have to quit now as he'd never recover but America seems such a polarised country.  My sister has lived out there 20 years and she said that he could have taken a dump on stage and his supporters would have said he'd won the debate.  Scary that he could actually still win.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, September 27, 2016, 16:54:08
Did anyone see the Trump v Clinton debate earlier this morning?  I've just finished watching it.  I'd already formed my opinion about Trump but knew less about Clinton other than what I'd read in the media.  I thought she came across pretty well, albeit like a typical politician (if that makes sense).  Knew her stuff, stayed calm and pretty rational - whether you agree with her politics is another matter.

Trump, on the other hand, came across as just bizarre to me.  Very easily goaded, constantly interrupting, rarely giving a straight answer, generally poor on detail and the use of some of the strangest non-sequiturs you could imagine.

If that was a UK election debate, he would have to quit now as he'd never recover but America seems such a polarised country.  My sister has lived out there 20 years and she said that he could have taken a dump on stage and his supporters would have said he'd won the debate.  Scary that he could actually still win.

Don't you believe it about the UK's superiority. Nigel Farage spouted fact-free bollocks for years, and his support only grew. Welcome to the era of post-truth politics.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, September 27, 2016, 17:22:30
Don't you believe it about the UK's superiority. Nigel Farage spouted fact-free bollocks for years, and his support only grew. Welcome to the era of post-truth politics.
Nor sure why Farage singled out. How many conviction politicians are there. Cameron and Gideon told equal amounts of shit as Farage.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, September 27, 2016, 17:32:16
Did anyone see the Trump v Clinton debate earlier this morning?  I've just finished watching it.  I'd already formed my opinion about Trump but knew less about Clinton other than what I'd read in the media.  I thought she came across pretty well, albeit like a typical politician (if that makes sense).  Knew her stuff, stayed calm and pretty rational - whether you agree with her politics is another matter.

Trump, on the other hand, came across as just bizarre to me.  Very easily goaded, constantly interrupting, rarely giving a straight answer, generally poor on detail and the use of some of the strangest non-sequiturs you could imagine.

If that was a UK election debate, he would have to quit now as he'd never recover but America seems such a polarised country.  My sister has lived out there 20 years and she said that he could have taken a dump on stage and his supporters would have said he'd won the debate.  Scary that he could actually still win.

At some point, this will probably happen.

I really don't understand what's going on over there.  There are 320 million people in the US...and the political system has somehow contrived to allow Donald Trump in to the final round of 2.  Something's not right.  To have such a tortuous, drawn-out process that arrives at a choice between Trump and Clinton is absurd.  Properly absurd.  The entire political system needs to reviewed, but it won't be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 29, 2016, 10:52:36
Jesus this is going to be fun in the courts, setting aside any matters of Brexit or the referendum the governments case seems to hinge on the fact that they know best and parliament should not really have an opinion, will set some terrifying precedents for wider legislation if it gets through the courts - just image the fun that the Tories could have with no apparent opposition at the moment and a legal precedent to change Acts of Parliament without consulting parliament?  :hmmm: :no:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/28/government-must-disclose-legal-arguments-article-50-procedure-peoples-challenge?CMP=share_btn_fb


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, September 29, 2016, 11:20:18
Jesus this is going to be fun in the courts, setting aside any matters of Brexit or the referendum the governments case seems to hinge on the fact that they know best and parliament should not really have an opinion, will set some terrifying precedents for wider legislation if it gets through the courts - just image the fun that the Tories could have with no apparent opposition at the moment and a legal precedent to change Acts of Parliament without consulting parliament?  :hmmm: :no:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/28/government-must-disclose-legal-arguments-article-50-procedure-peoples-challenge?CMP=share_btn_fb

It's not a legal precedent it's well established that international treaties are a Crown prerogative, thus Theresa May is well within her rights to invoke Article 50 using the Royal Prerogative without consent of Parliament. Besides Parliament has already agree to use of Article 50 by virtue of ratifying the Lisbon Treaty in this first place.

Changing Acts of Parliament is done by use of Statutory Instruments and that requires consent of Parliament.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 29, 2016, 11:29:19
It's not a legal precedent it's well established that international treaties are a Crown prerogative, thus Theresa May is well within her rights to invoke Article 50 using the Royal Prerogative without consent of Parliament. Besides Parliament has already agree to use of Article 50 by virtue of ratifying the Lisbon Treaty in this first place.

Changing Acts of Parliament is done by use of Statutory Instruments and that requires consent of Parliament.

It all depends on what the government is trying to do. Case law holds that a government cannot by means of prerogative power undo an Act of Parliament. The current case argues that invoking Article 50 would undo an Act of Parliament (at the very least the European Communities Act 1973, potentially many others), and is thus something that requires Parliamentary approval.

In terms of SI's that doesn't seem to be reflected by what's happening on the ground, the government are merrily presently changing planning legislation all over the place through the use of SI's none of which is being debated in parliament.

The court case is going to be a legal bun fight and if it fails the parliamentary debate should make interesting watching.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, September 29, 2016, 13:01:23
It all depends on what the government is trying to do. Case law holds that a government cannot by means of prerogative power undo an Act of Parliament. The current case argues that invoking Article 50 would undo an Act of Parliament (at the very least the European Communities Act 1973, potentially many others), and is thus something that requires Parliamentary approval.

In terms of SI's that doesn't seem to be reflected by what's happening on the ground, the government are merrily presently changing planning legislation all over the place through the use of SI's none of which is being debated in parliament.

The court case is going to be a legal bun fight and if it fails the parliamentary debate should make interesting watching.

Article 50 does not itself change any Acts of Parliament. It's a device in an international treaty design to inform an international organisation (EU) that we intend to leave. After it's invoked we still remain full EU members and Acts like the ECA 1972 still remain in force unamended.

Where Parliamentary Acts will be amended is when May returns from Brussels with her deal after Article 50 negotiation and in the form of an EU secession treaty - under what used to be known as the Ponsonby Rule - it will be laid before Parliament for ratification. It is here that the relevant Acts of Parliament will be repealed or amended.

I agree about SIs, the implicit nature of approval is inadequate in terms of Parliamentary debate and scrutiny.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 29, 2016, 15:00:01
Article 50 does not itself change any Acts of Parliament. It's a device in an international treaty design to inform an international organisation (EU) that we intend to leave. After it's invoked we still remain full EU members and Acts like the ECA 1972 still remain in force unamended.

Where Parliamentary Acts will be amended is when May returns from Brussels with her deal after Article 50 negotiation and in the form of an EU secession treaty - under what used to be known as the Ponsonby Rule - it will be laid before Parliament for ratification. It is here that the relevant Acts of Parliament will be repealed or amended.

I agree about SIs, the implicit nature of approval is inadequate in terms of Parliamentary debate and scrutiny.

I am not sure thy the governments case on the matter is so convoluted and why they have tried to prevent disclosure if it is that simple?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, September 29, 2016, 18:06:08
I am not sure thy the governments case on the matter is so convoluted and why they have tried to prevent disclosure if it is that simple?

It could be something no more simple than government departments are in a bit of chaos at the moment about Brexit and so they regard the court case as something of a distraction (which it is)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 30, 2016, 08:49:16
It could be something no more simple than government departments are in a bit of chaos at the moment about Brexit and so they regard the court case as something of a distraction (which it is)

I don't know what you possibly mean.....

To cheer up Reg I see the Tories took another kicking in a local election in Stow on the Wold yesterday, vote down 21% and right next to Witney too - result early next month will be an interesting marker.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, September 30, 2016, 10:45:52
I don't know what you possibly mean.....

To cheer up Reg I see the Tories took another kicking in a local election in Stow on the Wold yesterday, vote down 21% and right next to Witney too - result early next month will be an interesting marker.

We live in strange times. I'm inclined to sit back and watch the Tories self destruct.  :popcorn:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, September 30, 2016, 11:03:50
They won't though, will they.  Despite the divisions being caused by Brexit, the Tories are in a far stronger position than any other party at the moment.  Just about everyone agrees that they're going to walk the next General Election - whether its held in 2020 or before - because the opposition has evaporated.  The only significant parties showing any kind of unity at the moment are UKIP and the SNP...neither of whom are going worry Teresa May to any great extent.

Under the present FPTP electoral system, the Tories are practically unassailable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, September 30, 2016, 11:17:55
They won't though, will they.  Despite the divisions being caused by Brexit, the Tories are in a far stronger position than any other party at the moment.  Just about everyone agrees that they're going to walk the next General Election - whether its held in 2020 or before - because the opposition has evaporated.  The only significant parties showing any kind of unity at the moment are UKIP and the SNP...neither of whom are going worry Teresa May to any great extent.

Under the present FPTP electoral system, the Tories are practically unassailable.

The key is that their position of strength is also their weakness....they will be expected to run the country efficiently, something which atm looks beyond them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, September 30, 2016, 11:19:18
Tories stick together.  Unfortunately it takes a lot for them to split.  As long as they are all doing well and having a lovely time they wont set upon each other.

My lot are, unfortunately, a 'broad church'.  From members who are a glass of port away from turning tory to those who want full on class war, its pretty difficult to make it sing the same hymn.

I saw Corbyn speak at the Tolpuddle Festival last year.  Despite being warmly received in the main there were still a small amount berating him for not declaring smashing capitalism is the only way to truly honour Marx.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, September 30, 2016, 11:25:22
Tories stick together.  Unfortunately it takes a lot for them to split.  As long as they are all doing well and having a lovely time they wont set upon each other.

My lot are, unfortunately, a 'broad church'.  From members who are a glass of port away from turning tory to those who want full on class war, its pretty difficult to make it sing the same hymn.

I saw Corbyn speak at the Tolpuddle Festival last year.  Despite being warmly received in the main there were still a small amount berating him for not declaring smashing capitalism is the only way to truly honour Marx.

This is precisely why we need to do away with First Past the Post (FPTP).  Bring in proportional voting, allow Labour to split in to two (or three) - in to smaller, coherent political units that actually believe in what they stand for - and then elect a parliament that will properly represent the balance of opinion in the country.  It is only FPTP that forces Labour, and the Tories to a lesser extent, to group together in uneasy alliances that pull in several directions.

FPTP disproportionately rewards big parties.  It skews the political debate and disenfranchises millions of voters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, September 30, 2016, 11:27:55
Tories stick together.  Unfortunately it takes a lot for them to split.  As long as they are all doing well and having a lovely time they wont set upon each other.

My lot are, unfortunately, a 'broad church'.  From members who are a glass of port away from turning tory to those who want full on class war, its pretty difficult to make it sing the same hymn.

I saw Corbyn speak at the Tolpuddle Festival last year.  Despite being warmly received in the main there were still a small amount berating him for not declaring smashing capitalism is the only way to truly honour Marx.

It's always been thus in the Labour Party.  It's been a good week for Jezza, it now looks as if the likely 80's style split, may not happen and the party can unite, as far as it ever can.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 30, 2016, 11:54:46
It's always been thus in the Labour Party.  It's been a good week for Jezza, it now looks as if the likely 80's style split, may not happen and the party can unite, as far as it ever can.



Although possibly the thing that's saving Corbyn from a split is that dissenting MP's don't really have anywhere to go, would have been interesting to see what happened if the Lib Dems hadn't crashed so hard at the last election and thus retained some clout in the house, may have been a different picture then?

If we run the full course of this parliament and the Lib Dems continue to pick up support as they are at the moment, if Corbyn is still leading in say 2019 be interesting to see what happens then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 30, 2016, 11:58:00
Tories stick together.  Unfortunately it takes a lot for them to split.  As long as they are all doing well and having a lovely time they wont set upon each other.

My lot are, unfortunately, a 'broad church'.  From members who are a glass of port away from turning tory to those who want full on class war, its pretty difficult to make it sing the same hymn.

I saw Corbyn speak at the Tolpuddle Festival last year.  Despite being warmly received in the main there were still a small amount berating him for not declaring smashing capitalism is the only way to truly honour Marx.



I think the difference is the key objective of the Tory Party is to rule and they value this before all else, hence when it looked like Labouresque divisions would surface in the leadership election post Cameron, that was all put to bed very quickly. Be interesting to see when May finally decides to cut a deal on leaving the EU as whatever she  does is going to piss a lot of the party off either way - then the fun and games may begin.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Friday, September 30, 2016, 15:02:23
This is precisely why we need to do away with First Past the Post (FPTP).  Bring in proportional voting, allow Labour to split in to two (or three) - in to smaller, coherent political units that actually believe in what they stand for - and then elect a parliament that will properly represent the balance of opinion in the country.  It is only FPTP that forces Labour, and the Tories to a lesser extent, to group together in uneasy alliances that pull in several directions.

FPTP disproportionately rewards big parties.  It skews the political debate and disenfranchises millions of voters.

Agree with every word.

I'd love to live in a democracy. It must be quite nice.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, October 6, 2016, 12:01:00
It seems the favourite to be the new-new leader of UKIP has been hospitalised with a serious brain injury after being punched by one of his fellow UKIP MEPs. What an unholy mess.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, October 6, 2016, 12:08:52
May, calling labour the nasty party made me chuckle. As did all the other bullshit she spewed yesterday.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, October 6, 2016, 12:20:53
It seems the favourite to be the new-new leader of UKIP has been hospitalised with a serious brain injury after being punched by one of his fellow UKIP MEPs. What an unholy mess.

UKIP is clearly closing ranks.  The name of the assailant - who Woolfe allegedly 'offered outside' after a disagreement at a party meeting - is still not in the public domain.  They will have to go public soon.  Sounds horrible.  Hope he pulls through.

British Politics is in a complete mess.  More than ever, we need an effective opposition to scrutinise/hold the government to account.  Labour and UKIP are tearing themselves apart; the Lib Dems are nowhere; and the SNP, the only Westminster party that seems to have any semblance of unity and purpose, hates Westminster and has no representation south of the border.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, October 6, 2016, 12:24:39
I mean I'm genuinely impressed by how low the Lib Dem support % is holding considering they relatively speaking have their shit together and Labour and UKIP are figuratively/literally (respectively) punching themselves in the face. People really didn't like Clegg/tuition fees, huh?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, October 6, 2016, 13:30:34
UKIP is clearly closing ranks.  The name of the assailant - who Woolfe allegedly 'offered outside' after a disagreement at a party meeting - is still not in the public domain.  They will have to go public soon.  Sounds horrible.  Hope he pulls through.


Mike Hookem is the one alleged to have thrown the punch. The long standing historical hostility and divisiveness in the upper echelons of UKIP means they are not capable of closing ranks. This kind of stuff has gone for years, it's only a surprise it's taken so long for it go public.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 6, 2016, 13:38:47
This is just an offshoot of the Hamilton v Farage split really isn't it? Bunch of fucking clowns


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, October 6, 2016, 15:19:37
I mean I'm genuinely impressed by how low the Lib Dem support % is holding considering they relatively speaking have their shit together and Labour and UKIP are figuratively/literally (respectively) punching themselves in the face. People really didn't like Clegg/tuition fees, huh?

It surely has a lot to do with the fact they propped up a Tory government that, I imagine, most Lib Dem voters didn't want in power.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, October 6, 2016, 15:27:04
Mike Hookem is the one alleged to have thrown the punch. The long standing historical hostility and divisiveness in the upper echelons of UKIP means they are not capable of closing ranks. This kind of stuff has gone for years, it's only a surprise it's taken so long for it go public.



Is his nickname Right Hookem?

Presumably a play for the Brown Shirt vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, October 6, 2016, 17:33:53

Presumably a play for the Brown Shirt vote.

Like John Prescott...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Friday, October 7, 2016, 06:21:37
May, calling labour the nasty party made me chuckle. As did all the other bullshit she spewed yesterday.

Bullshit certainly but she's the only political leader to acknowledge the shit that some of the working class has had to put up with in the last 20 years.
If only a Labour leader could of done the same.
I'm now in a quandary. Who to vote for next.
Labour to hung up on fighting each other and no longer focused on the working class as I see them.
Liberals poor mans tory
Tory class enemy.
Ukip nothing without Farage.
Maybe back to the greens as a protest vote.
Or do something that I haven't done since the early 70s and don't bother voting.
Truly, even in the days of thatcher, have I never felt so disenfranchised.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 7, 2016, 06:43:05
I mean I'm genuinely impressed by how low the Lib Dem support % is holding considering they relatively speaking have their shit together and Labour and UKIP are figuratively/literally (respectively) punching themselves in the face. People really didn't like Clegg/tuition fees, huh?
I am definitely in the wait and see camp regarding the Lib Dems, I did think Farron was not doing great, but they are getting the membership up (not particularly relevant in winning elections as Labour may realise some day) but also quietly gaining Local seats all over the place with some decent swings from Tory (20%+ swing in Stow) and Labour (Mosborough where they were previously fourth, with a +30% swing taking c.9% off all of the Tories, Labour and UKIP). Also from his re-emergence I suspect polling is suggesting Clegg is not as toxic as he was?

Proof will be in be in a by-election I suppose, witney offers some opportunity but I suspect the scale of the Tory majority will be too big for a challenge although the Lib Dems odds have dropped a lot in the last few weeks. Jo Cox's old seat is not being contested (apart from a plethora of dodgy sounding right wing parties against labour) again I suspect sentimental will skew that result which may lead it not being a true guide to Corbyn support in the real world.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, October 7, 2016, 07:30:03
Interesting appointments from Corbyn so far. Abbott and Chakrabati - both loathesome individuals who should switch a few more people off.
May doing her best to capture the middle ground as Labour lurch to the extreme left. 
UKIP have done their job. Is there any need to vote for them now?
Saw Question Time last night and the leader of Plaid Cymru appeared to have a lobotomy. The panel included one of these totally unfunny comedians - Parsons??
Politics is at an all time low


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Friday, October 7, 2016, 07:38:38
Extreme left hahahhahaha


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Friday, October 7, 2016, 07:56:34
I see the government has overturned the democratic decision to ban fracking in lancashire.So much for May "listening to the people"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Friday, October 7, 2016, 08:03:20
The only significant parties showing any kind of unity at the moment are UKIP and the SNP

Very portentous ardiles!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, October 7, 2016, 08:37:27
Quote from: adje
I see the government has overturned the democratic decision to ban fracking in lancashire.So much for May "listening to the people"


You can hardly expect the Tory party to put doing what's right over profit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 7, 2016, 08:39:53
I see the government has overturned the democratic decision to ban fracking in lancashire.So much for May "listening to the people"

Sorry just to step in, I have no idea of the rights and wrongs of fracking, but to clarify it has already been approved in Yorkshire (which suggests there is no accepted 'safety' reason to not allow it) and the Council refused the planning applications on issues of noise and visual amenity, the appeal has overturned this on planning grounds and granted planning permission for the works, much as they overturn refusals for housing developments etc. It will have been considered purely on its planning merits and relationship to adopted national and local planning policy, the fact that loads of people objected is essentially irrelevant if it concurs with adopted planning policy (which the people have plenty of opportunity to comment upon but tend not to as its deadly dull!) - that's the way planning legislation and decision making works.

Dull planning clarification over - continue as you were!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 7, 2016, 08:44:16

You can hardly expect the Tory party to put doing what's right over profit

Again dull planning hat on...

The decision will have been made by an a Planning Inspector based on the factors as per my post above, the SoS only rubber stamps it on the advice of civil servants - the fun and games occurs when they go against an Inspectors recommendation as that does suggest political force has been possibly been applied!

Fracking seems to be very much like the badger cull in that its almost impossible to find anything written about it from a neutral viewpoint, its always from someone with an interest either side of the debate and is biased accordingly!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Friday, October 7, 2016, 09:51:38
All of which may be true but my point is the so called new "listening" govt didnt listen to the views of local people and ignored a perfectly democratic decision


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, October 7, 2016, 10:03:06
Extreme left hahahhahaha

I had a chuckle at that also.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 7, 2016, 10:05:44
Interesting appointments from Corbyn so far. Abbott and Chakrabati - both loathesome individuals who should switch a few more people off.
Understand the dislike of Abbott but what's Shami Chakrabati done to merit being called "loathsome"?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, October 7, 2016, 10:15:34
I had a chuckle at that also.

This bit too:
May doing her best to capture the middle ground

Didn't Chalkies vote UKIP at the last election? How's that going then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 7, 2016, 10:21:22
All of which may be true but my point is the so called new "listening" govt didnt listen to the views of local people and ignored a perfectly democratic decision

That's just the way it is (and has been since the Planning Acts of 1948 - if not earlier!), and from experience of many planning committees they are often not very democratic and merely listen to who shouts at them the most.

In this case the Councils Planning Officers and Legal section advised committee members that the proposal adhered with policy and should be approved and in their opinions would probably be approved at appeal, hence I suggest why the refusal (which some poor planning officer will have had to draft and fight at Appeal despite recommending the scheme for approval) related to noise and visual enmity issues and thus entirely subjective things where at least some argument could be presented.

I suspect the applicant will also get costs off the Council as the application was refused contrary to policy which will be a fair few quid out of the already skint Councils coffers.

The quiche knitters up here are fuming about this!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, October 7, 2016, 10:23:52
That's just the way it is (and has been since the Planning Acts of 1948 - if not earlier!), and from experience of many planning committees they are often not very democratic and merely listen to who shouts at them the most.

In this case the Councils Planning Officers and Legal section advised committee members that the proposal adhered with policy and should be approved and in their opinions would probably be approved at appeal, hence I suggest why the refusal (which some poor planning officer will have had to draft and fight at Appeal despite recommending the scheme for approval) related to noise and visual enmity issues and thus entirely subjective things where at least some argument could be presented.

I suspect the applicant will also get costs off the Council as the application was refused contrary to policy which will be a fair few quid out of the already skint Councils coffers.

The quiche knitters up here are fuming about this!

Are you relaxed about this because?:
a) due process was followed
b) you're cool with fracking
c) it's not in your back yard
d) all of the above.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, October 7, 2016, 10:33:34
This bit too:
Didn't Chalkies vote UKIP at the last election? How's that going then?
Pretty well. Commitment to get out of Europe. Job done. No need to vote for them again. Farage should be knighted.
Would normally vote Labour but can't do so at the moment. Might have to wait for the new party to be set up by the Labour dissaffected


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, October 7, 2016, 10:45:10
Understand the dislike of Abbott but what's Shami Chakrabati done to merit being called "loathsome"?
Just think she's been bought by Corbyn and sold her soul


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, October 7, 2016, 10:55:04
Pretty well. Commitment to get out of Europe. Job done. No need to vote for them again. Farage should be knighted.
Would normally vote Labour but can't do so at the moment. Might have to wait for the new party to be set up by the Labour dissaffected

OK. Might check in with you on that front from time to time. Meanwhile, I'm having to go through the faff of getting French nationality, so you lot can abuse me properly. Cheers for that.  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 7, 2016, 11:15:14
Just think she's been bought by Corbyn and sold her soul
On what basis?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, October 7, 2016, 11:41:34
Very portentous ardiles!

Do you know, I'd completely forgotten writing that!  A week is a long time in politics, as someone once said...

The SNP will be the next to blow up then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 7, 2016, 11:45:05
Are you relaxed about this because?:
a) due process was followed
b) you're cool with fracking
c) it's not in your back yard
d) all of the above.

As I said before I know nothing of the process nor safety of fracking, however probably a) working in the sector its what we all have to deal with, why should fracking be any different - unless there is an environmental/safety reason but if so why has it already been approved in Yorkshire?

Its big news in North Lancashire as there is a large middle class green voting community up here who are very good at making a noise.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, October 7, 2016, 11:55:16
As I said before I know nothing of the process nor safety of fracking, however probably a) working in the sector its what we all have to deal with, why should fracking be any different - unless there is an environmental/safety reason but if so why has it already been approved in Yorkshire?

Its big news in North Lancashire as there is a large middle class green voting community up here who are very good at making a noise.

Was just curious as I know you're not far away, and I think I'd be motivated to try and find out more if it was on my doorstep. This is the sort of stuff your green-voting, middle-class neighbours will be reading:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/27/fracking-digging-drilling-paris-agreement-fossil-fuels

Do you think this, and they, are wrong to be making a noise?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 7, 2016, 12:06:18
Was just curious as I know you're not far away, and I think I'd be motivated to try and find out more if it was on my doorstep. This is the sort of stuff your green-voting, middle-class neighbours will be reading:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/27/fracking-digging-drilling-paris-agreement-fossil-fuels

Do you think this, and they, are wrong to be making a noise?

Now somewhat further away than I was, but that's by the by.

As I said earlier the big problem is finding out information that is independent and not biased, the article you have linked actually seems to get to the crux of the issue in that its just extracting another fossil fuel to be burnt which is a whole different argument.

As with many nationally important decisions successive governments rather than adopting a policy on the matter are just sitting on their hands expecting it to be controlled through the planning system which is entirely the wrong place to do it, if we don't want fracking as a nation well just ban it, however from what I know about the case (And this is purely professional interest on the planning side) is that it should never have been refused by the Council on planning grounds in the first place.

I also probably bit a little regarding the idea of planning committees being democratic after a long meeting yesterday with another council where democracy regarding planning matters is very obviously not there, where a member of the public of influence is imposing their views on a scheme and the Council are just giving them carte blanche.......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, October 7, 2016, 12:19:55
On what basis?
Does a bit of work for Corbyn which appears to be universally acclaimed as a whitewash, is given a peerage by him, never been an MP and then invited into the shadow cabinet - all in a matter of months. Makes me form the opinion of being bought by Corbyn and selling her soul. I could be wrong but its not an illogical conclusion to draw.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, October 7, 2016, 12:26:39
Theresa May occupying the political centre ground by announcing all foreign workers are going to be made to wear gold stars, dividing children into their proper classes at 11 years old is a good idea and British troops can behave how they jolly well like.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 7, 2016, 12:46:26
Theresa May occupying the political centre ground by announcing all foreign workers are going to be made to wear gold stars, dividing children into their proper classes at 11 years old is a good idea and British troops can behave how they jolly well like.



The first 10 minutes of this is an interesting listen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgn552kz7rE


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 7, 2016, 12:52:27
Does a bit of work for Corbyn which appears to be universally acclaimed as a whitewash, is given a peerage by him, never been an MP and then invited into the shadow cabinet - all in a matter of months. Makes me form the opinion of being bought by Corbyn and selling her soul. I could be wrong but its not an illogical conclusion to draw.
Erm, OK, but loathsome seems a bit OTT. Can understand it for Abbott, or for Blair, Jack Straw, George Osborne etc etc, not sure Chakrabati merits it for a bit of greasy pole climbing. Not sure there's anyone in politics would escape your censure if that's your criteria.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, October 7, 2016, 13:09:02
Erm, OK, but loathsome seems a bit OTT. Can understand it for Abbott, or for Blair, Jack Straw, George Osborne etc etc, not sure Chakrabati merits it for a bit of greasy pole climbing. Not sure there's anyone in politics would escape your censure if that's your criteria.
I think her route in has been different to most. I think the way its been done stinks to high heaven. Just my opinion. Loathsome still works for me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 7, 2016, 13:21:15
I think her route in has been different to most. I think the way its been done stinks to high heaven. Just my opinion. Loathsome still works for me.
So what words do you use to describe politicians who start illegal wars, turn a blind eye to torture or make the disabled pay for the fuck-ups of the banks (and other politicians)?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, October 7, 2016, 13:22:47
Lovable rogues?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, October 7, 2016, 13:25:16
So what words do you use to describe politicians who start illegal wars, turn a blind eye to torture or make the disabled pay for the fuck-ups of the banks (and other politicians)?
Loathsome and in some cases loathsome criminals. What words do you use to describe someone brought in to turn a blind eye to a party that tolerates anti Semitic, whitewashes it and then gets rewarded considerably for doing so. Granted, its not in the same league as starting illegal wars but its pretty loathsome to me.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 7, 2016, 13:40:05
Loathsome and in some cases loathsome criminals. What words do you use to describe someone brought in to turn a blind eye to a party that tolerates anti Semitic, whitewashes it and then gets rewarded considerably for doing so. Granted, its not in the same league as starting illegal wars but its pretty loathsome to me. 
Fair enough. I think I'm just being pedantic about your early overescalation :)

FWIW, I don't think Chakrabati did whitewash her report, but I agree Labour, and the left in general, has a massive issue with turning a blind eye to (and in some cases actively encouraging) anti-Semitism. Israel, and the Middle East in general, has long been the Left's blind spot, where well-meaning anti-colonialism and irrational anti-Americanism collides with the anti-racism the Left purports to subscribe to and all too often principle gives way to prejudice.

Incidentally as a UKIP voter, what are you hoping to get out of leaving Europe?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 7, 2016, 13:48:16
Treading very carefully here - but I have not read much about it, but from the limited stuff that's been in the media has the 'anti-Semitism' gone beyond people expressing anger at the manner in which Israel is acting towards Palestine (which has nothing really to do with religion and more to do with expansion, aggression and ignoring the UN)? Just asking as whilst I am no fan of Corbyn's in the slightest a lot seems to stem from his support for the Palestines - not trying to provoke a row but just asking the better informed?

WRT to Chakrabarti no idea if it was a whitewash or not, but does seem a little too convenient that she was bought in, wrote report, elevated to the Lords (which Corbyn had claimed he would never do) and then ends up in cabinet, although I suspect she is better qualified than many of the 2015 intake who have been elevated way beyond their experience as they a) supported Corbyn and b) he could find no one else to fill posts. Possibly the ire should be directed more at Jeremy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, October 7, 2016, 13:53:25
Incidentally as a UKIP voter, what are you hoping to get out of leaving Europe?
A better element of control. I think I've said before if I'm going to screw up my life, I'd rather do it myself than have 27 others do it for me while I can see it happen but have my arms tied behind my back. Maybe not the best analogy.
There is no doubt there are plans to integrate and expand further and further-  European army, Turkey etc. This will be done by stealth as it has been so far. I don't like it and don't want it.
The EU is pretty much starting to fall apart anyway with North, South and Eastern divides.
I believe we can very strongly stand on our own feet better than being part of a club. I might be wrong, I might be right. That's the gamble.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 7, 2016, 13:59:47
A better element of control. I think I've said before if I'm going to screw up my life, I'd rather do it myself than have 27 others do it for me while I can see it happen but have my arms tied behind my back. Maybe not the best analogy.
There is no doubt there are plans to integrate and expand further and further-  European army, Turkey etc. This will be done by stealth as it has been so far. I don't like it and don't want it.
The EU is pretty much starting to fall apart anyway with North, South and Eastern divides.
I believe we can very strongly stand on our own feet better than being part of a club. I might be wrong, I might be right. That's the gamble.
Fair enough (again) - I share a lot of your misgivings there. Although you won't have any control at all. Just the UK elite may get some control back from a European elite.

How happy are you about all the shit that seems to come with Brexit? How chuffed were you that the Brexit lot didn't actually seem to have any plan whatever on how to implement it?
And as someone who voted for them have you signed any of the petitions (or written an email or whatever) asking the Brexit liars to actually keep some of their promises (£350m pw to the NHS was promised vs yet another massive round of cuts, which is what we're actually getting)?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, October 7, 2016, 14:22:17
OK. Might check in with you on that front from time to time. Meanwhile, I'm having to go through the faff of getting French nationality, so you lot can abuse me properly. Cheers for that.  ;)

If only Henry V1 hadn't fucked up when becoming King of France as well as England.  He also founded Eton College which gave us Cameron and Osborne.  A lot to answer for.

I always think the world would have been a much more civilised place, if the French could have got cricket.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Friday, October 7, 2016, 14:23:53
If only Henry V1 hadn't fucked up when becoming King of France as well as England.  He also founded Eton College which gave us Cameron and Osborne.  A lot to answer for.

I always think the world would have been a much more civilised place, if the French could have got cricket.
That would have put a rocket up 'em.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 7, 2016, 14:24:23
That would have put a rocket up 'em.
:D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, October 7, 2016, 14:34:30
That would have put a rocket up 'em.

Unfortunately, the Doodlebugs were sent our way from France.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 7, 2016, 14:38:39
Unfortunately, the Doodlebugs were sent our way from France.
You know, I'm starting to think you've got a bit of a thing about the French, Reg.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Friday, October 7, 2016, 14:39:30

How happy are you about all the shit that seems to come with Brexit? How chuffed were you that the Brexit lot didn't actually seem to have any plan whatever on how to implement it?
And as someone who voted for them have you signed any of the petitions (or written an email or whatever) asking the Brexit liars to actually keep some of their promises (£350m pw to the NHS was promised vs yet another massive round of cuts, which is what we're actually getting)?

I think there needs to be a distinction made between the official campaign who in my opinion had no interest in leaving the EU and more to do with climbing the greasy Tory pole and genuine Brexiteers who have always had a plan which is increasingly being adopted by May and the government.

The £350 million to NHS figure was always bollocks and had no real impact on the leavers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 7, 2016, 14:41:26
The £350 million to NHS figure was always bollocks and had no real impact on the leavers.
Not for the hardcore like you who'd always wanted to leave maybe, but there's plenty of evidence it had an impact on undecided's. It was a key plank of the Leave campaign propaganda, despite the key figures all trying to distance themselves from it as soon as they realised they might have to deliver on it, and it was just an out and out lie.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 7, 2016, 14:44:18
I think there needs to be a distinction made between the official campaign who in my opinion had no interest in leaving the EU and more to do with climbing the greasy Tory pole and genuine Brexiteers who have always had a plan which is increasingly being adopted by May and the government.
Really? As far as I can see, May and the government still don't have a plan. Looks to me like they're doing nothing more than mouthing dog whistle racism while treading water and shitting themselves about how they're going to deliver "Brexit means Brexit".

Incidentally, what was the "genuine Brexiteers" plan? Because they kept it awfully quiet during the campaign which seemed to consist of empty platitudes or simple lies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, October 7, 2016, 15:35:59
Really? As far as I can see, May and the government still don't have a plan. Looks to me like they're doing nothing more than mouthing dog whistle racism while treading water and shitting themselves about how they're going to deliver "Brexit means Brexit".

Incidentally, what was the "genuine Brexiteers" plan? Because they kept it awfully quiet during the campaign which seemed to consist of empty platitudes or simple lies.

A question that I've found myself asking a lot over the last few months is how come advertisers regularly get prosecuted and fined for making patently untrue claims, but politicians just get elected on the back of them. Wouldn't better policing of downright untruths lead to more honest campaigns?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, October 7, 2016, 15:41:22
Fair enough (again) - I share a lot of your misgivings there. Although you won't have any control at all. Just the UK elite may get some control back from a European elite.

How happy are you about all the shit that seems to come with Brexit? How chuffed were you that the Brexit lot didn't actually seem to have any plan whatever on how to implement it?
And as someone who voted for them have you signed any of the petitions (or written an email or whatever) asking the Brexit liars to actually keep some of their promises (£350m pw to the NHS was promised vs yet another massive round of cuts, which is what we're actually getting)?
I'm quite happy with Bexit so far. I'm not concerned about the lack of a plan as long as we've got one when it comes to negotiations. I'd prefer hard Brexit personally. I'm not concerned by the different opinions on Brexit either. I actually think it healthy as long as we have one voice when it is needed. Also, you dont want to give away your hand before negotiations.
No, I haven't signed any petitions re £350m. i knew the figure was shit but it had no bearing on my decision. There were liars on both sides. Neither side were worthy to conduct the referendum. Cameron and Gideon were total fucking bellends bringing in a cast of 1000 experts who the i electorate ignored.
I think if there was a vote tomorrow the vote to leave would be higher as a lot who were scared to vote leave havn't yet seen the plague of locusts or Wolrd War 3.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 7, 2016, 15:48:28
Really? As far as I can see, May and the government still don't have a plan. Looks to me like they're doing nothing more than mouthing dog whistle racism while treading water and shitting themselves about how they're going to deliver "Brexit means Brexit".

Incidentally, what was the "genuine Brexiteers" plan? Because they kept it awfully quiet during the campaign which seemed to consist of empty platitudes or simple lies.

Davis is getting the excuses laid out early doors! https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/04/david-davis-if-brexit-goes-wrong-leave-campaigners


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 7, 2016, 15:49:46
A question that I've found myself asking a lot over the last few months is how come advertisers regularly get prosecuted and fined for making patently untrue claims, but politicians just get elected on the back of them. Wouldn't better policing of downright untruths lead to more honest campaigns?
No it wouldn't. But if the penalties were appropriately stiff and it was policed properly it might lead to more politicians in jail and that would be a good thing
There were liars on both sides. Neither side were worthy to conduct the referendum. Cameron and Gideon were total fucking bellends bringing in a cast of 1000 experts who the i electorate ignored.
Completely agree with you there. Johnson, Farage et al should be prosecuted for fraud, but that doesn't mean I was any more enamoured of the arrogant, lazy, dishonest Remain campaign. The whole thing was a new low for British politics.
I think if there was a vote tomorrow the vote to leave would be higher as a lot who were scared to vote leave havn't yet seen the plague of locusts or Wolrd War 3.
Not saying we will see either, but it's very early days yet, we won't see the consequences in full (good or bad) until a few years after we've left.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 7, 2016, 15:51:08
A question that I've found myself asking a lot over the last few months is how come advertisers regularly get prosecuted and fined for making patently untrue claims, but politicians just get elected on the back of them. Wouldn't better policing of downright untruths lead to more honest campaigns?

There was talk of a test prosecution against, if I recall correctly, Johnson based along the lines of him committing electoral fraud on the basis that he knew he was telling untruths, not sure if that has gone away of just been rolled up in the plethora of cases the government are facing on the legal niceties of the whole shambles.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Friday, October 7, 2016, 15:51:23


Incidentally, what was the "genuine Brexiteers" plan? Because they kept it awfully quiet during the campaign which seemed to consist of empty platitudes or simple lies.

It's a little difficult to have a plan for a leap into the unknown. That was the risk most people decided to take to be able to leave. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 7, 2016, 15:55:21
It's a little difficult to have a plan for a leap into the unknown.
No it's not. People, businesses, governments make plans for uncertain outcomes every day. That's exactly HOW you deal with uncertainty - by planning for what you might do in the event of multiple uncertain outcomes. Not having a plan for such a major "leap into the unknown" is criminally irresponsible.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, October 7, 2016, 16:02:17
as is holding a referendum on the something that nobody knows what the hell we are doing after.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, October 7, 2016, 16:05:16
No it's not. People, businesses, governments make plans for uncertain outcomes every day. That's exactly HOW you deal with uncertainty - by planning for what you might do in the event of multiple uncertain outcomes. Not having a plan for such a major "leap into the unknown" is criminally irresponsible.
Alternatively you are called David Cameron, present one side of an argument, lose the argument, tuck your ball under your arm and stomp off. No preparation whatsoever from our prime minister as the vote was never ever meant to go brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, October 7, 2016, 16:06:21
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s29RKnB7l7o

Nigel is happy in his work.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Friday, October 7, 2016, 16:07:54
No it's not. People, businesses, governments make plans for uncertain outcomes every day. That's exactly HOW you deal with uncertainty - by planning for what you might do in the event of multiple uncertain outcomes. Not having a plan for such a major "leap into the unknown" is criminally irresponsible.

I'm not so sure in this circumstance, with so much based on negotiations I think it was better to let the dust settle. If the vote had led to immediate withdrawal, then fair enough.

Besides, I watched the whole thing from afar and should have done the same with this discussion  ;D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Friday, October 7, 2016, 16:13:49
Now somewhat further away than I was, but that's by the by.

As I said earlier the big problem is finding out information that is independent and not biased, the article you have linked actually seems to get to the crux of the issue in that its just extracting another fossil fuel to be burnt which is a whole different argument.

As with many nationally important decisions successive governments rather than adopting a policy on the matter are just sitting on their hands expecting it to be controlled through the planning system which is entirely the wrong place to do it, if we don't want fracking as a nation well just ban it, however from what I know about the case (And this is purely professional interest on the planning side) is that it should never have been refused by the Council on planning grounds in the first place.

I also probably bit a little regarding the idea of planning committees being democratic after a long meeting yesterday with another council where democracy regarding planning matters is very obviously not there, where a member of the public of influence is imposing their views on a scheme and the Council are just giving them carte blanche.......

Fair enough but in this case i think the main protesters were not so much "people of influence"  as ordinary local concerned people


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Friday, October 7, 2016, 16:14:03
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s29RKnB7l7o

Nigel is happy in his work.

Quote
We're only making plans for Nigel
He has his future in a British steel
We're only making plans for Nigel
Nigel's whole future is as good as sealed
Ironically prophetic as we now have no steel industry.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, October 7, 2016, 16:21:00
No it's not. People, businesses, governments make plans for uncertain outcomes every day. That's exactly HOW you deal with uncertainty - by planning for what you might do in the event of multiple uncertain outcomes. Not having a plan for such a major "leap into the unknown" is criminally irresponsible.
Well Nissan is certainly planning for how to deal with uncertainty - imo it will end up getting some subsidy funded by the good old (now migrant-free) British taxpayer - and this will be described as investment in British manufacturing


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 7, 2016, 16:30:38
Alternatively you are called David Cameron, present one side of an argument, lose the argument, tuck your ball under your arm and stomp off. No preparation whatsoever from our prime minister as the vote was never ever meant to go brexit.
Yes of course. The criminally irresponsible failure to plan applies to both sides.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Friday, October 7, 2016, 16:34:27
Ironically prophetic as we now have no steel industry.
I rather think that's the point of it...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Friday, October 7, 2016, 16:35:20
Well Nissan is certainly planning for how to deal with uncertainty - imo it will end up getting some subsidy funded by the good old (now migrant-free) British taxpayer - and this will be described as investment in British manufacturing

Nissan getting subsidies you say??? That's unheard of.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, October 7, 2016, 18:53:42
You are quite right.  I should have said "additional subsidies" and also  clarified "in the event of a hard brexit".

In that event, the UK would then be a sovereign Kingdom once again, free to have its taxpayers compensate Nissan or alternatively subsidise unemployment on Wearside.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, October 7, 2016, 19:06:08
The first 10 minutes of this is an interesting listen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgn552kz7rE

Brilliant. Thanks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Saturday, October 8, 2016, 10:19:34
Not for the hardcore like you who'd always wanted to leave maybe, but there's plenty of evidence it had an impact on undecided's. It was a key plank of the Leave campaign propaganda, despite the key figures all trying to distance themselves from it as soon as they realised they might have to deliver on it, and it was just an out and out lie.

Post referendum analysis, and analysis on the night itself by BBC and ITV, showed by a big margin democracy was the biggest reason for the leave vote followed by a distant second immigration. The economy and costs didn't register which is why the economic FUD (fear, uncertain doubt) tactics used by the remain campaign failed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 08:50:28
I am rapidly beginning to reach the conclusion that I just don't understand modern new politics where principles seem to have bee entirely replaced with keeping ones power at all costs.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/snoopers-charter-investigatory-powers-bill-labour-abstain-shami-chakrabarti-jeremy-corbyn-diane-a7355301.html

Chakrabarti is delivering a beautiful case study in how to build a fine and principled reputation over many years and then proceed to destroy it once ones nose is in the trough in about 3 weeks, would love to be a fly on the wall next time she joins her former colleagues at Liberty for after work drinks.... 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 09:03:09
I am rapidly beginning to reach the conclusion that I just don't understand modern new politics where principles seem to have bee entirely replaced with keeping ones power at all costs.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/snoopers-charter-investigatory-powers-bill-labour-abstain-shami-chakrabarti-jeremy-corbyn-diane-a7355301.html

Chakrabarti is delivering a beautiful case study in how to build a fine and principled reputation over many years and then proceed to destroy it once ones nose is in the trough in about 3 weeks, would love to be a fly on the wall next time she joins her former colleagues at Liberty for after work drinks....
Hence my view of her being loathsome, which she is reinforcing quite nicely. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 10:25:10
I am rapidly beginning to reach the conclusion that I just don't understand modern new politics where principles seem to have bee entirely replaced with keeping ones power at all costs.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/snoopers-charter-investigatory-powers-bill-labour-abstain-shami-chakrabarti-jeremy-corbyn-diane-a7355301.html

Chakrabarti is delivering a beautiful case study in how to build a fine and principled reputation over many years and then proceed to destroy it once ones nose is in the trough in about 3 weeks, would love to be a fly on the wall next time she joins her former colleagues at Liberty for after work drinks....

Politics has always been about power, never principles. Thus the dividing line is not vertical between political parties but horizontal between us and them.


Title: Re:
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 21, 2016, 06:42:56
Interestingly the Tory vote was down 15% in Witney?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, October 21, 2016, 06:52:04
New candidate always loses votes when a popular local MP retires, especially at a by election. Lib Dems managed to lose 26% in Bath at the last election. I wouldn't read too much into it.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, October 21, 2016, 07:03:14
Interestingly the Tory vote was down 15% in Witney?

Lib Dems gained a fair bit.

I was one of the 59 who voted for Lord Toby Jug.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 21, 2016, 08:29:14
Lib Dems gained a fair bit.

I was one of the 59 who voted for Lord Toby Jug.
Didn't he split the Looney Vote? Why him and not the originals?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, October 21, 2016, 09:10:56
Didn't he split the Looney Vote? Why him and not the originals?

Preferred his name compared to the other candidates name :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 21, 2016, 09:53:45
New candidate always loses votes when a popular local MP retires, especially at a by election. Lib Dems managed to lose 26% in Bath at the last election. I wouldn't read too much into it.



I suspect that the crash in the Lib Dem vote had little to do with the retirement of popular candidates?

The fact that both May and Cameron had been canvassing for the new guy in Witney (and the fact it is deepest Toryville) and it still dropped as much as it did hopefully means that voters have been a little spooked by the rhetoric being spouted to keep the hard right on side?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 21, 2016, 09:54:23
Preferred his name compared to the other candidates name :D

And this is what is wrong with modern politics  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, October 21, 2016, 09:59:43
Tory safe seat, with a big majority. Might as well vote for a laugh


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 21, 2016, 10:19:30
Tory safe seat, with a big majority. Might as well vote for a laugh

I know, Woodward defected to Labour around about the time I moved away from Witney (ish) and up north, but I have to admit the fact that Witney had a Labour MP for a while tickled me somewhat!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, October 21, 2016, 10:48:29
I know, Woodward defected to Labour around about the time I moved away from Witney (ish) and up north, but I have to admit the fact that Witney had a Labour MP for a while tickled me somewhat!

Remember it well, my old man was chairman of the West oxon conservative association at the time. I dont trust any of them so just do a protest vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 10:34:54
  High Court rules that Parliament has to vote to trigger Art 50....can't just be nodded through by PM. 

  Government can appeal the decision.

  :popcorn:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 10:39:22
  High Court rules that Parliament has to vote to trigger Art 50....can't just be nodded through by PM. 

  Government can appeal the decision.

  :popcorn:

Appeal been granted for the government. Now going to Supreme Court.


Title: Re:
Post by: FormerlyPlymRed on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 10:46:54
Look forward to dealing with the inevitable rioting if Brexit doesn't happen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 11:06:51
Lots of left wing types on my Twitter celebrating this, and whilst it is really quite funny that the attorney general doesn't know the law, the law of unintended consequences looms large. If May wants to pass Brexit through parliament, she'd be much more comfortable with doing so after calling a new election and securing a massive Conservative majority on the back of the pro-Brexit rage this is almost certainly going to cause.

Five years of the Tories with a 100+ majority? Well, at least Corbyn stood up for his principles eh?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 11:41:33
Lots of left wing types on my Twitter celebrating this, and whilst it is really quite funny that the attorney general doesn't know the law, the law of unintended consequences looms large. If May wants to pass Brexit through parliament, she'd be much more comfortable with doing so after calling a new election and securing a massive Conservative majority on the back of the pro-Brexit rage this is almost certainly going to cause.

Five years of the Tories with a 100+ majority? Well, at least Corbyn stood up for his principles eh?

The whole thing is a fucking embarrassing shambles, with the government unable to write or interpret the law, whilst the worthies on the exit side have been shown to be somewhat clueless in encouraging people to vote for a simple thing that could not actually be delivered with the legislation available - you would have expected someone to have checked.

I am a little torn to be honest, its going to delay the inevitable departure which will instead lead to months more uncertainty and mess, however I am pleased that the government has been slapped down on the wider attempt to interpret legislation how it suits them and not as it is actually written, which would have set a worrying precedent!

As for the post Brexit rage remember that 48% of the electorate voted to stay I suspect May will wait to see how the Richmond by-election goes before she makes any decisions as whilst Goldsmith with the support of the Tories and UKIP (but he is Independent remember) is trying to suggest that the election will be all about Heathrow a lot of the local electorate are suggesting it may have more to do with Brexit - we shall see...

Corbyn stood entirely with his principles, he wanted to leave and thus did fuck all despite what Labour policy actually was, a bit of a novelty for a leader to defy party policy but that's 'new' politics for you!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 11:44:50
Look forward to dealing with the inevitable rioting if Brexit doesn't happen.
They're all middle aged/elderly ex-pats, they might send stiff letters into the Mail, but they're not really the rioting class :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 11:46:58
The whole thing is a fucking embarrassing shambles, with the government unable to write or interpret the law, whilst the worthies on the exit side have been shown to be somewhat clueless in encouraging people to vote for a simple thing that could not actually be delivered with the legislation available - you would have expected someone to have checked.
The leave lot should be delighted anyway, because they told us all they didn't vote leave because they're nasty anti-immigrant bigots but because of their high-minded belief in the principle of the sovereignty of the UK parliament, which this judgement upholds, so they'll all be well chuffed with this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 11:50:27
 The Tory party's attempt at running a government in sole charge since 2015, has been incompetent in the extreme.

I haven't a clue how this is going to pan out, just like our politicians.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 11:54:27
The Tory party's attempt at running a government in sole charge since 2015, has been incompetent in the extreme.
Unlike the well-oiled machine which is Her Majesty's Opposition :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 12:00:16
Unlike the well-oiled machine which is Her Majesty's Opposition :)

You've got to hand it to Sturgeon and the SNP.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 12:12:01
Unlike the well-oiled machine which is Her Majesty's Opposition :)

Opposition you say?  Yes Im one of those.  Whats going on?  Hang on I just need to have an argument with a blairite.  Im sure nothing important is going on.  Hang on a minute whilst I punch myself repeatedly in the balls whilst sitting in a broad church.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 12:26:12
They're all middle aged/elderly ex-pats, they might send stiff letters into the Mail, but they're not really the rioting class :)

Don't imagine many of us middle-aged ex-pats voted to be the Christmas turkey. Anyway, most long-term ex-pats can only dream of the basic human right of a vote in any national election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 13:40:31
Don't imagine many of us middle-aged ex-pats voted to be the Christmas turkey. Anyway, most long-term ex-pats can only dream of the basic human right of a vote in any national election.
I was taking the piss out of a perceived stereotype, tbf. Albeit not very well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 13:45:31
The leave lot should be delighted anyway, because they told us all they didn't vote leave because they're nasty anti-immigrant bigots but because of their high-minded belief in the principle of the sovereignty of the UK parliament, which this judgement upholds, so they'll all be well chuffed with this.

If Parliament wants sovereignty then it should get off its fat arse, exercise it and demand a say on the Royal Prerogative - however it has shown every indication before the referendum of doing quite the opposite. It's not impotent it exercised its power over RP before with the Iraq war when Blair could use Royal Prerogative to send Britain to war without Parliamentary approval, but Parliament put significant political pressure on Blair for it to go to a vote.

The court is the wrong forum to resolve this issue. Precedent has showed where there's a dispute between Parliament and the Executive, the courts have consistently taken a neutral line. Instead what we appear to have here is the court overstepping its remit and breaching separation of powers to tell a sovereign Parliament what to do.

I suspect though that this the Divisional Court’s (High Court) way of forcing the government to “bump it upstairs” to the Supreme Court where a decision of this magnitude should be decided


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 13:47:14
Think you leavers need to accept you've lost this and move on ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 13:49:16
Think you leavers need to accept you've lost this and move on ;)

 :D I don't think it matters one way or the other, the only beneficiaries are lawyers...as always


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 14:56:18
An unutterably tedious and annoying process continues then.  As a university educated, politically engaged individual I didn't feel in any way qualified to make a decision of this magnitude.  Nor should I have been expected to but for Cameron desperately deciding the only gambit he could play to ensure power was to court the UKIP voters with the promise of a ridiculous referendum.  And the pigs in the trough played their game and we are left to suffer.

Not least from the fact that a horrible compound word that didn't exist today is now the most commonly used word in the media.  Brexit.  Making Britain a more ghastly and unpleasant place in every possible way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 16:42:17
I was taking the piss out of a perceived stereotype, tbf. Albeit not very well.

I know. And I think there are a lot of that kind of ex-pat on the riviera (hi, Ironside :bye:) and the costas that can't string a sentence of the local lingo together but who, without a hint of self-awareness, voted out.

Brexit's had a funny effect on me. I used to come over to the UK regularly for work, friends and football, but increasingly I can't be arsed. My family, my future, my views are more European than British now. While I've stayed deeply engaged with the country I left 30 years ago, I increasingly feel like it's left me, and I find it harder and harder to recognise. Now I find myself laughing at the misfortunes that Brexit's bringing down on everyone's heads.

Still feels strange to be applying for a French passport though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 16:55:15
Now I find myself laughing at the misfortunes that Brexit's bringing down on everyone's heads
Potential misfortunes potential brilliance


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 16:57:16
I know. And I think there are a lot of that kind of ex-pat on the riviera (hi, Ironside :bye:) and the costas that can't string a sentence of the local lingo together but who, without a hint of self-awareness, voted out.

Brexit's had a funny effect on me. I used to come over to the UK regularly for work, friends and football, but increasingly I can't be arsed. My family, my future, my views are more European than British now. While I've stayed deeply engaged with the country I left 30 years ago, I increasingly feel like it's left me, and I find it harder and harder to recognise. Now I find myself laughing at the misfortunes that Brexit's bringing down on everyone's heads.

Still feels strange to be applying for a French passport though.

Brexit though is not about being European but about democracy and always has been.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 17:11:58
Potential misfortunes potential brilliance

Good to stay optimistic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 17:17:50
Brexit though is not about being European but about democracy and always has been.

Indeed. And when democracy means leaving the most important decision since the war to an electorate who had neither the politico-economic education nor the cool exposition of the facts that such a decision required, it showed just where the limits of democracy lie. As is about to be confirmed in America.

The 21st century version of democracy is way over-rated. It's the rule of the uninformed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 17:28:25
Indeed. And when democracy means leaving the most important decision since the war to an electorate who had neither the politico-economic education nor the cool exposition of the facts that such a decision required, it showed just where the limits of democracy lie. As is about to be confirmed in America.

The 21st century version of democracy is way over-rated. It's the rule of the uninformed.
Totally agree with this: we elect parliament to act on our behalf, as they should be better informed on issues than the majority of us. The government then abdicate responsibility for one of the biggest issues in recent history, instead putting it into the hands of the ignorant, ill-informed public (I'm including myself in this).



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 17:37:41
The 21st century version of democracy is way over-rated. It's the rule of the uninformed.

You'd no doubt prefer the rule of the uniformed....France has previous

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 17:45:50
You'd no doubt prefer the rule of the uniformed....France has previous

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

Yes Reg, I've heard of Vichy France, and you may be surprised to learn that I don't advocate the model. I only appear an apologist for France because your raging francophobia needs counterbalancing. I even have my own personal TEF emoji.

:french:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 17:52:21
Indeed. And when democracy means leaving the most important decision since the war to an electorate who had neither the politico-economic education nor the cool exposition of the facts that such a decision required, it showed just where the limits of democracy lie. As is about to be confirmed in America.

The 21st century version of democracy is way over-rated. It's the rule of the uninformed.

I find myself watching far too much Fox News in the run up the final polling day, it's like any banned substance, exceptionally bad for you but you get tremors when you are not on it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 17:56:49
Yes Reg, I've heard of Vichy France, and you may be surprised to learn that I don't advocate the model. I only appear an apologist for France because your raging francophobia needs counterbalancing. I even have my own personal TEF emoji.

:french:

In fact I'm something of a Francophile, which enables me to see their faults, as well as their good points. Certainly the history of democracy in France could be said to be flawed at best, and fragile at worst


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 18:16:41
The leave lot should be delighted anyway, because they told us all they didn't vote leave because they're nasty anti-immigrant bigots but because of their high-minded belief in the principle of the sovereignty of the UK parliament, which this judgement upholds, so they'll all be well chuffed with this.

This is great news for the Brexiters. Just what they wanted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 18:16:53
I know. And I think there are a lot of that kind of ex-pat on the riviera (hi, Ironside :bye:) and the costas that can't string a sentence of the local lingo together but who, without a hint of self-awareness, voted out.

Brexit's had a funny effect on me. I used to come over to the UK regularly for work, friends and football, but increasingly I can't be arsed. My family, my future, my views are more European than British now. While I've stayed deeply engaged with the country I left 30 years ago, I increasingly feel like it's left me, and I find it harder and harder to recognise. Now I find myself laughing at the misfortunes that Brexit's bringing down on everyone's heads.

Still feels strange to be applying for a French passport though.

That is exactly how I feel.  Remember thinking on the morning of June 24th that, for the first time, I felt like I belonged somewhere else...and the feeling has not shifted in the 4 months since then.

Fed up of hearing Tory twits wank themselves in to a frenzy over blue passports and playing the National Anthem on TV every evening.  (I'm not making this up.  It's in the news today.)  Fed up watching the victorious Leave side acting as if there was a 98% vote in favour of leaving.  There was not.  The margin of victory was slim...and I hope that the ruling today might inject a little balance in to the debate now about how we leave the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 18:24:24
Indeed. And when democracy means leaving the most important decision since the war to an electorate who had neither the politico-economic education nor the cool exposition of the facts that such a decision required, it showed just where the limits of democracy lie. As is about to be confirmed in America.

The 21st century version of democracy is way over-rated. It's the rule of the uninformed.

Not only is that patronising but do you really think MPs are better informed than us? Wow Just wow. The "power of prestige" rules again. Take this so called debate by MPs in October, it was so ill informed it was hard to know where to start to take the thing apart.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2016-10-12/debates/F327EC64-3777-4D40-A98D-BEC2E11763A2/ParliamentaryScrutinyOfLeavingTheEU

But I guess Boris Johnson knows what he's doing?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 18:32:47
Not only is that patronising but do you really think MPs are better informed than us? Wow Just wow. The "power of prestige" rules again. Take this so called debate by MPs in October, it was so ill informed it was hard to know where to start to take the thing apart.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2016-10-12/debates/F327EC64-3777-4D40-A98D-BEC2E11763A2/ParliamentaryScrutinyOfLeavingTheEU

But I guess Boris Johnson knows what he's doing?

Ah yes, the mistrust of experts. Yes, I do think that MPs know better than us, at least when they're doing their job properly rather than pandering to populism (like Boris for example). I don't think it's patronising to think that qualified people should be making the most important decisions in their area of specialism.

I'm not sure that your alternative of trusting the maverick anti-establishment figure with a grievance is working that well in the UK, or the US. But it seems I'm in a minority.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 18:38:31
The concept of letting the qualified take on the role of making the decisions is a sound one in theory, with the populous able to bring them into check through democracy when needed.  However, the populous don't exert their control properly - voting based on colours rather than any sense of detail and the Qualified simply aren't half the time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 18:51:58
The concept of letting the qualified take on the role of making the decisions is a sound one in theory, with the populous able to bring them into check through democracy when needed.  However, the populous don't exert their control properly - voting based on colours rather than any sense of detail and the Qualified simply aren't half the time.

You wouldn't want to be accused of being patronising, but it's a problem isn't it if the electorate aren't sufficiently qualified - or, more usually, sufficiently engaged - to elect the best candidates on a close examination of their merits. Complacency with democracy surely leads to its erosion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 19:12:03
The referendum produced a narrow vote to leave the EU.  Nothing more.  So why on earth would any of us, Remainer or Breciteer, have a problem with Parliament and NOT the government deciding what sort of new arrangements we favour?  Also, an English Court deciding on constitutional interpretation rather than Theresa May seems sensible.

Furthermore the Brexiteers cited the examples of Norway, Canada, Switzerland etc to illustrate the non EU alternatives, softening the adverse consequences of a hard Brexit

So let Parliament consider them.  The people have not spoken on this


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 20:03:03
A referendum got us in, a referendum should get us out


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 20:03:48
The referendum produced a narrow vote to leave the EU.  Nothing more.  So why on earth would any of us, Remainer or Breciteer, have a problem with Parliament and NOT the government deciding what sort of new arrangements we favour?  Also, an English Court deciding on constitutional interpretation rather than Theresa May seems sensible.

Furthermore the Brexiteers cited the examples of Norway, Canada, Switzerland etc to illustrate the non EU alternatives, softening the adverse consequences of a hard Brexit

So let Parliament consider them.  The people have not spoken on this

So a parliamentary vote following a debate, leading to a resolution. As if the referendum never happened, in fact.

Can you get that genie back in the bottle?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 20:32:49
A referendum got us in, a referendum should get us out

No, Parliament got us in, after lengthy and rigorous debate. The initial referendum merely confirmed that decision. It should be the decision of Parliament to take us out, the referendum is merely advisory. It is up to parties and individual MP's how they interpret that advice.

Take, our two "Honourable" gentleman. Buckland was Remain, Tomlinson Brexit, the people of Swindon voted Brexit, therefore the advice to Buckland should be to vote for Art 50 as mandated. If his ilk and others feel in all conscience they cannot, then a GE must be called.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 20:37:06
While I completely agree that the referendum was ill-founded, ill-thought out, largely conducted on the back of lies and ignorance on both sides and provides no meaningful template for how to actually proceed, it did nonetheless produce a clear, if narrow, result and MPs must respect that. As Reg says, if they feel they cannot, they should stand down and ask their constituents for a fresh mandate to oppose the popular will. Be interesting to see how many are willing to risk their careers, expenses etc for the sake of the principles they hold so dear. Ha ha


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 20:38:16
Fed up watching the victorious Leave side acting as if there was a 98% vote in favour of leaving.  There was not.  The margin of victory was slim

It always amuses me when the "well the majority voted for it" statement is used (not just for this but for elections as well).

In fact around 37.5% of the electorate voted to leave (admittedly more than the percentage that voted to stay), but far less than half of the electorate.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 20:41:49
It always amuses me when the "well the majority voted for it" statement is used (not just for this but for elections as well).

In fact around 37.5% of the electorate voted to leave (admittedly more than the percentage that voted to stay), but far less than half of the electorate.



How many of them voted to leave based on the 350 million pound nhs lie too i wonder?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 20:51:23
How many of them voted to leave based on the 350 million pound nhs lie too i wonder?
Probably less than those who voted to stay in case Armageddon was triggered


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 20:59:29
Probably less than those who voted to stay in case Armageddon was triggered

Unlikely, considering potential Armageddon was not mentioned by the remain campaign. Unlike the nhs funding lies for the leave one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 21:03:28
How many of them voted to leave based on the 350 million pound nhs lie too i wonder?

It would have been much better to have pointed out, the tax payer savings on EU budget contribution would be going to overseas companies like Nissan to keep them in the UK, and if you're doing it for them, then you've got to do it for the others. 

Good old skool Labour socialism right there, redolent of the Callaghan government spunking plenty of money on trying to keep Chrysler in Linwood. They took the money and promtly fucked off.

Sweet irony is that State aid to prop up industries is illegal in the EU....but once we're out then the Tories can pursue Corbyn style state intervention  :)
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 21:04:45
Unlikely, considering potential Armageddon was not mentioned by the remain campaign. Unlike the nhs funding lies for the leave one.

Cameron predicted WWIII. Osborne emergency budget, hitting pensioners.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 21:46:16
The leave lot should be delighted anyway, because they told us all they didn't vote leave because they're nasty anti-immigrant bigots but because of their high-minded belief in the principle of the sovereignty of the UK parliament, which this judgement upholds, so they'll all be well chuffed with this.

Just because no-one else has bumped this for 20 minutes or so.

And given I'm not sure that anyone knows what parliament will be asked to vote on, I don't think we can say they should follow the lead of their constituents, as the question will be different.  Although in that case, of course I'd look forward to Witney's latest chinless wonder voting on the Remain side, in accordance with his constituency's clear direction.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 3, 2016, 23:15:12
As per Reg's suggestion above, if they had any honour or integrity they'd wait to see what the choices were for them to vote on, assess that against how their constituents voted and either vote in line with that or, if they felt unable to, stand down and offer themselves up for re-election at the earliest. Of course the killer clause there is "if they had any honour or integrity". Which they don't.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 4, 2016, 09:55:02
Cameron predicted WWIII. Osborne emergency budget, hitting pensioners.

Right, this is going to be fucking painful but here goes in the interests of accuracy......

Cameron never predicted WWIII, he merely stated 'Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking?', pointing out the origins of the EC and certain things Churchill had said - which was then spun by Boris (A biographer of Churchill don't forget) into something about WWIII.

Its difficult to comment upon Osborne's emergency budget as he has gone so we have no idea what he may have done, however the fact that Hammond has completely thrown away the Tories previous budget framework  on austerity, and borrowing targets and started throwing money around to prop up the economy which rather flies in the face of Tory ideology looks rather like an emergency budget in everything but name?

I don't recall any policy of thumping pensioners, but in light of their apparent inability to understand how legislation works, the role of the judiciary and in fact what sovereignty actually means whilst only taking their facts from the Mail and Express I can see the value in this as an emerging policy.

Right I have defended the Tories, I am off for a through jet washing - I promise I won't do it again!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 4, 2016, 10:49:08
Cameron's implication was that somehow the EU was responsible for post war peace in Europe, and our withdrawal would undermine that, which is clearly total bollocks.

Peace has been maintained by NATO, an organisation containing the non EU countries Canada, US, Albania, Iceland, Turkey and Norway.  Conversely there are EU countries, which don't participate in NATO....Austria, Cyprus, RoI, Sweden, Malta, Finland.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, November 4, 2016, 12:21:59
Cameron predicted WWIII. Osborne emergency budget, hitting pensioners.

Didnt hear that from Cameron, myself. I did Osborne though. Difference is, they didn't have those points as the basis of their campaign and also plastered on posters, in the background of speeches on tv and the sides of buses.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 4, 2016, 12:39:22
As per Reg's suggestion above, if they had any honour or integrity they'd wait to see what the choices were for them to vote on, assess that against how their constituents voted and either vote in line with that or, if they felt unable to, stand down and offer themselves up for re-election at the earliest. Of course the killer clause there is "if they had any honour or integrity". Which they don't.

One pro Brexit Tory has jumped ship today....another 4 or 5 will make a GE inevitable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, November 4, 2016, 13:01:34
Didnt hear that from Cameron, myself. I did Osborne though. Difference is, they didn't have those points as the basis of their campaign and also plastered on posters, in the background of speeches on tv and the sides of buses.

I think it's also fair to say that most commentators predicting a financial cost of Brexit are predicting that it will arrive after we have left, or at least after Article 50 has been triggered.  Stating the obvious, I know, but as of today, we're still in the EU - so the financial fall out has, so far, been restricted to what looks like a permanent fall in the value of the ££.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 4, 2016, 17:55:11
Lovely to see even the BBC are trolling politicians now...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwsQ_5Wm4oo


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Friday, November 4, 2016, 22:52:50
Lot of waffling on this thread. A vote is a vote, and a decision is a decision right or wrong, and it doesn't matter how many airy fairy obstacles are planted, and histrionics, and foot stamps by financial types, and self interested politicos. If we don't go through with it wave bye bye to democracy as we know it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Friday, November 4, 2016, 22:59:35
If we don't go through with it wave bye bye to democracy as we know it.

So to play devils advocate, if the decision is deferred to our democratically elected parliament that signals the end of democracy.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 4, 2016, 23:06:48
If we don't go through with it wave bye bye to democracy as we know it.
Get what you're saying and I agree the referendum decision has to be implemented. But actually "democracy as we know it" is precisely the government and MPs ignoring the wishes of the people who elected them and doing what suits their interests best. Taking a decision by referendum and sticking to it, despite it being against the wishes of most of the elite in this country, would be a radical departure from democracy as we know it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, November 4, 2016, 23:22:57
The decision is interesting. I don't have a problem with article 50 going through parliament. It will be interesting to see what mps do and if they vote against there may well be a backlash. We can't put our cards on the table though. Cameron really was a total fucking bellend.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Saturday, November 5, 2016, 00:18:33
So to play devils advocate, if the decision is deferred to our democratically elected parliament that signals the end of democracy.



If they vote against, then yes. All in my opinion of course.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Saturday, November 5, 2016, 00:20:42
If they vote against, then yes. All in my opinion of course.
And in my opinion also. They should rubber stamp the referendum not start dictating terms of leaving.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Saturday, November 5, 2016, 00:26:30
And in my opinion also. They should rubber stamp the referendum not start dictating terms of leaving.

It's all a bit like losing a bet to your mates on a friday night, when you didn't do the fat bird. You know you agreed to it. but you couldn't pull the trigger. As much as you may bluff, everyone knows it will happen soon to save face. (does that make sense in pub and real  terms)?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Saturday, November 5, 2016, 00:31:43
It's all a bit like losing a bet to your mates on a friday night, when you didn't do the fat bird. You know you agreed to it. but you couldn't pull the trigger. As much as you may bluff, everyone knows it will happen soon to save face. (does that make sense in pub and real  terms)?
Hopefully this is just a precudural correction rather than anything more. Vote done, let's get on with it. Surely if we trust our mps to enact article 50 then we should trust them to enact the terms of leaving. After all we trusted them to get us in and what what the EU became.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Saturday, November 5, 2016, 00:37:39
Hopefully this is just a precudural correction rather than anything more. Vote done, let's get on with it. Surely if we trust our mps to enact article 50 then we should trust them to enact the terms of leaving. After all we trusted them to get us in and what what the EU became.

Yeah I agree, but you can never rule out self interest, and their little clubs, thinking otherwise..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, November 5, 2016, 23:05:40
MPs won't vote against, but they will at least now get a chance to scrutinise and to influence the shape of the exit.  As they should...because none of that was on the referendum ballot paper.

I'm sick of seeing pro-Leave politicians taking a 'winner takes all' approach...as if the 52/48 margin gives them carte blanche to target the extreme/'hard' form of Brexit.  There is no mandate for this.  When I hear 'the people voted clearly' - which happens a lot - I disagree.  A 52/48 margin is slim.  And at the very least, it signals that a 'soft' Brexit would sit much closer to the centre of gravity of thinking across the country.

Give parliament it's chance to test what's on offer.  Theresa May is going to come seriously unstuck if she ploughs on ahead as if there is complete support for getting the hell out, how ever & whatever the cost.  We're leaving, but now she needs to start listening to the country - all of it - about how that happens.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Sunday, November 6, 2016, 01:08:37
MPs won't vote against, but they will at least now get a chance to scrutinise and to influence the shape of the exit.  As they should...because none of that was on the referendum ballot paper.

I'm sick of seeing pro-Leave politicians taking a 'winner takes all' approach...as if the 52/48 margin gives them carte blanche to target the extreme/'hard' form of Brexit.  There is no mandate for this.  When I hear 'the people voted clearly' - which happens a lot - I disagree.  A 52/48 margin is slim.  And at the very least, it signals that a 'soft' Brexit would sit much closer to the centre of gravity of thinking across the country.

Give parliament it's chance to test what's on offer.  Theresa May is going to come seriously unstuck if she ploughs on ahead as if there is complete support for getting the hell out, how ever & whatever the cost.  We're leaving, but now she needs to start listening to the country - all of it - about how that happens.

I do get your point but a margin is a margin however slim....fuck me, we've lost some games this season by one goal.

We were asked to vote in or out and the majority would decide.

The vote happened, which shocked me a bit.

52 is more than 48.... So that's the result isn't it?

I'm just as pissed off with the pro stay brigade bitching about what happened and questioning every decision thereafter.

It'll take another two years I reckon before we are fully out and the mess is sorted out.

I work in the food game and the Brexit impact (or rather...lets blame Brexit for prices going up) is starting to have a influence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Sunday, November 6, 2016, 11:12:06
We're leaving, but now she needs to start listening to the country - all of it - about how that happens.
Yep. All of the country. Inners and outers. Im very much hard brexit as id just rather be done with the fucking thing but if the best deal for the uk is soft brexit then so be it. The problem is twofold. We don't know what those sneaky fuckers in the eu are planning. Also you do not play poker with your cards on the table for all to see so actually wide consultation may actually not deliver the best deal for the uk but if it brings peace amongst us then again so be it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Sunday, November 6, 2016, 16:09:37
Paul Dacre

Enemy of the British Constitution?

Will the Mail indicate BEFORE the result of the appeal hearing, whether the 11 appeal judges are enemies of the British people or not?

If there is any uncertainty, it might be worth the Mail checking if any of the 11 are in gay relationships as this fact was reported of 1 of the three High Court judges described as enemies of the people as if it were relevant.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, November 6, 2016, 18:17:56
The appeal wasn't made to overturn the referendum, was it? It was made to stop the government arbitrarily deciding the terms of Brexit, which would be in direct violation of parliamentary process.

I was strongly anti Brexit, as I'm quite ignorant I followed the vast majority of experts who said Brexit would be bad for the country, instead of following Farage's and Johnson's sound bites, which seemed to be very light on anything believable.

Parliament should be included in discussions and decisions on how we leave the EU, that's what they're fucking there for, to discuss and decide on our behalf.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Sunday, November 6, 2016, 18:46:30
Paul Dacre

Enemy of the British Constitution?

Will the Mail indicate BEFORE the result of the appeal hearing, whether the 11 appeal judges are enemies of the British people or not?

If there is any uncertainty, it might be worth the Mail checking if any of the 11 are in gay relationships as this fact was reported of 1 of the three High Court judges described as enemies of the people as if it were relevant.

Worse, "openly gay", like it would be better if he'd just stayed in the closet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Tuesday, November 8, 2016, 13:42:07
This would throw the cat amongst the pigeons - according to the Guardian, the DPP is considering bringing a case against the Leave campaign for knowingly breaching electoral law
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/07/brexit-cps-considers-complaint-that-leave-campaigns-misled-voters  (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/07/brexit-cps-considers-complaint-that-leave-campaigns-misled-voters)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, November 8, 2016, 14:18:36
I'm sure everything will be done to stop us leaving.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 8, 2016, 14:38:43
I'm sure everything will be done to stop us leaving.

Like what, vast majority of Tory politicians will follow the whip, Labour in areas which voted leave will be in a quandary and SNP will vote to stay. If the Lords kick off Rees Mogg has the fantastically democratic solution and just create more Lords?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 06:46:11
God bless america

Trump wins!

Crazy americans


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 07:03:52
America just trolled the world bigly


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 07:20:12
Fucking idiots


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 07:29:54
Couldn't imagine 2 more unlikeable people running a country. I think it's hilarious. And, like Brexit, the fallout and division will be amusing.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 07:53:56
Fucking hell America.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 08:13:59
Better get building the fallout shelter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 08:39:59
Good or bad that's two major results where the status quo has had it's arsed kicked. The world is a mess and it needs to change. He isnt the answer, but maybe that will start the shift.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 08:43:17
Good or bad that's two major results where Putin has won. The West is a mess and Putin will be laughing his tits off. He isnt the answer, but maybe he will start to feel he can do whatever he wants now.
Fixed it for you. I'd be shitting myself right now if I was Ukrainian, Georgian or a citizen of any of the Baltic states. The Middle East is about to get a whole lot worse too


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 08:54:48
That's exactly what a politician would do to a statement...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 08:56:35
The World has been crazy for a few years now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 08:57:08
The World has been crazy for a few years now.

About 13000!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 09:11:24
Fixed it for you. I'd be shitting myself right now if I was Ukrainian, Georgian or a citizen of any of the Baltic states. The Middle East is about to get a whole lot worse too
Not a Trump fan at all but how is it going to get worse ? I keep reading that but is that based on assumption rather than facts?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 09:37:58
Not a Trump fan at all but how is it going to get worse ? I keep reading that but is that based on assumption rather than facts?
Yes, it's based on an assumption as to how Putin will behave, rather than Trump, looking at what has happened in Syria since Russia intervened, the fault lines that are already drawn throughout the rest of the region and the strong likelihood that Putin will seek to use a weakend Europe and isolationist US to expand his sphere of influence. He has amply demonstrated his preferred way of doing that, in Chechnya, Ukraine, Georgia and Syria. So yes it's an assumption, as any prediction of future events will be, but it is based on the facts of his behaviour over the last decade.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 09:38:44
About 13000!
Didn't know you were a Creationist? ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 09:38:55
Not a Trump fan at all but how is it going to get worse ? I keep reading that but is that based on assumption rather than facts?

The Republicans have control of Congress and the Senate, they can do what the fuck they like now

Although that is assuming that elected Republicans come flocking back to Trump after a lot of them distanced themselves in the election


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 09:57:56
Farage has had an interesting year....looks like his campaigning for Trump has paid dividends.  Could Trump be any worse than George W ?...... :popcorn:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 09:59:19
I went into Costa earlier and the barista said to me...."white Americano?"

I said "too soon"....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 10:01:03
I went into Costa earlier and the barista said to me...."white Americano?"

I said "too soon"....

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 13:12:01
http://www.essence.com/news/stevie-wonder-voting-trump-asking-me-drive


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 13:21:46
The Republicans have control of Congress and the Senate, they can do what the fuck they like now

Although that is assuming that elected Republicans come flocking back to Trump after a lot of them distanced themselves in the election

If I was a republican who publicly went against Trump, I'd be having checks done on the locks and CCTV at home. Backfired on them big time, they might get a job building a wall, but that will be about the best they can hope for..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 13:21:56
Its the death of the opinion poll.Labour has a chance after all


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 15:33:59
It is interesting to see up close the parallels with the Brexit vote - he has essentially won by getting low paid and unemployed people in the Northern states to break ranks from either voting Democrat, or just not bothering for years.  There was an interesting stat, that got next to zero airtime until this started coming through, that half of the USA is still paid less than 19 years ago (the median income still sits below the level it was in 1997).  So, although growth figures showed the economy was in good health, and more people are technically in work than ever before, a growing level of frustration was coming through from those below half way and the figure of blame was put squarely at Politicians and Globalisation.  Odd that it took a Billionaire with a dubious track record in those exact areas to spot it and call it out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 15:43:23
It is interesting to see up close the parallels with the Brexit vote - he has essentially won by getting low paid and unemployed people in the Northern states to break ranks from either voting Democrat, or just not bothering for years.  There was an interesting stat, that got next to zero airtime until this started coming through, that half of the USA is still paid less than 19 years ago (the median income still sits below the level it was in 1997).  So, although growth figures showed the economy was in good health, and more people are technically in work than ever before, a growing level of frustration was coming through from those below half way and the figure of blame was put squarely at Politicians and Globalisation.  Odd that it took a Billionaire with a dubious track record in those exact areas to spot it and call it out.
Come on he won it based on alot more than that Rob. Infact the only parallels i am seeing in regards to brexit are the way the voters are all being pigeon holed into uneducated or racist types again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 16:21:37
No, if you look at the voting, the really key area that changed it's voting and mattered was in the Mid West to North East area.  Heavily populated by people who used to be employed in heavy industry and equally full of massive rural areas which are still largely impoverished after these jobs left town.  In the cities in these states, Hilary held up - they have new jobs in media, IT, finance etc.  However is the smaller towns and rural districts people have low paid work or none at all - it is this group that used to vote Democrat - the Unions would pretty much do the job for the party.  They turned this time and many probably didn't even vote last time around.  His talks of bringing back industry by raising tariff's resonated here.  To back that up, he did worse in traditional Republican states in the South but they were so far Republican that he still held them easily enough and the West and East Coast will probably mean the popular vote goes to Clinton.  Trump targeted a group of people and hit them the message they wanted to hear.  Clinton didn't even visit Wisconsan in the campaign - she also lost to Sanders in the places she lost to Trump (or they were close) because Sanders gave a similar message on restricting trade.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 16:26:10
Oh, and what will be interesting to watch is how he delivers on that promise!  Bringing back a car manufacturer like Ford is not going to bring back the job numbers it would have in the past, even if he did force them back.  Technology has changed so much.  It really does show the Democrats what fools they have been, and the Republicans, that someone so rich can convince those below half way that he will change their fortunes!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 17:03:21
It is interesting to see up close the parallels with the Brexit vote - he has essentially won by getting low paid and unemployed people in the Northern states to break ranks from either voting Democrat, or just not bothering for years.  There was an interesting stat, that got next to zero airtime until this started coming through, that half of the USA is still paid less than 19 years ago (the median income still sits below the level it was in 1997).  So, although growth figures showed the economy was in good health, and more people are technically in work than ever before, a growing level of frustration was coming through from those below half way and the figure of blame was put squarely at Politicians and Globalisation.  Odd that it took a Billionaire with a dubious track record in those exact areas to spot it and call it out.

Isn't that because Western capitalism is like a big Pyramid Scheme.  Those at the top get almost all the gains and whilst those in the middle still see some payback, those at the bottom are shafted.  And people are waking up to it?

Bizarre, though, that those people would see Trump - a billionaire tax dodger, very much at the top of the Pyramid, as some sort of saviour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 17:04:50
If I was a republican who publicly went against Trump, I'd be having checks done on the locks and CCTV at home. Backfired on them big time, they might get a job building a wall, but that will be about the best they can hope for..

There will be no wall.  The wall is the Trump equivalent of "£350 million pound to the NHS".  As he might say, "believe me, folks".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 17:42:31
Oh, and what will be interesting to watch is how he delivers on that promise!  Bringing back a car manufacturer like Ford is not going to bring back the job numbers it would have in the past, even if he did force them back.  Technology has changed so much.  It really does show the Democrats what fools they have been, and the Republicans, that someone so rich can convince those below half way that he will change their fortunes!

It will if he tears up trade agreements and makes foreign cars too expensive to import.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 17:45:22
Anyway doubt it will go full term. He'll more than likely do something, or something will come out and he'll be booted, that or the FBI, or the Mexican cartels will bump him off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 18:38:58
Tony Robinson ‏@Tony_Robinson  7h7 hours ago
For the very first time, I have absolutely no cunning plan

We're fucked.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 19:59:26
When did he become an American citizen then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 20:10:59
He's a comedian, I'm guessing it's a tad tongue in cheek.

Just a hunch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Wednesday, November 9, 2016, 20:50:03
Damn thought we'd shipped a slaver out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 10, 2016, 09:27:13
Anyway doubt it will go full term. He'll more than likely do something, or something will come out and he'll be booted, that or the FBI, or the Mexican cartels will bump him off.
Won't be the FBI, that's the CIA's job :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, November 10, 2016, 09:55:01
A quirk of their form of Demoncracy is that Clinton gets more of the vote but Trump wins.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 10, 2016, 10:02:37
A quirk of their form of Demoncracy is that Clinton gets more of the vote but Trump wins.

Bit like our quirk, whereby the SNP get approx 1.5 mill votes and 56 MP's, whereas UKIP got 3.9 mill votes for 1 MP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, November 10, 2016, 10:25:25
Yes indeed

But UKIP love referenda ("the People have Spoken") and a PR - type alternative to FPTP for Parliament was rejected by "the People" in a referendum, so no complaints from UKIP, Shirley?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 10, 2016, 11:42:30
Yes indeed

But UKIP love referenda ("the People have Spoken") and a PR - type alternative to FPTP for Parliament was rejected by "the People" in a referendum, so no complaints from UKIP, Shirley?
Think it's like their love of parliamentary sovereignty, they like it when they agree with it, otherwise it's toys out of the pram time


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, November 10, 2016, 12:05:27
Absolutely.

UKIP's rejection of the European Court appears to extend to any Court, even an English Court and further to our very own UK constitution when it doesn't immediately advance the particular "hard brexit" version they support


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 11, 2016, 10:52:25
  So the Tories nod through the parishing plan for Swindon....not sure what is in effect at least a 10% rise in Council Tax was mentioned in their election manifesto.

 This tax increase comes against a backdrop of austerity cuts to services like buses, libraries, leisure facilities, and the handing of assets to private companies to strip.

 The increase is necessary to pay for grass cutting and keeping the streets tidy.

Personally I woudn't bother cutting grass, for anything other than pitches, open spaces left to grow would encourage bio diversity and people could keep goats and sheep.  Apparently businesses, which are of course indirectly responsible for much rubbish in the streets, through irresponsible packaging, are to be asked to make voluntary contributions.

The dog shit bin colection would be better funded by a licence scheme for dog owners.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, November 11, 2016, 12:19:35
And they've split Wichelstowe by sticking East Wichel in South Swindon (quite rightly) but putting Middle and West Wichel in with Wroughton. Not happy about that personally, would much rather the whole of Wichelstowe was in the same parish.

I'm yet to see the details confirmed of how much council tax is going up by, do you have a link Reg?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 11, 2016, 12:27:43
And they've split Wichelstowe by sticking East Wichel in South Swindon (quite rightly) but putting Middle and West Wichel in with Wroughton. Not happy about that personally, would much rather the whole of Wichelstowe was in the same parish.

I'm yet to see the details confirmed of how much council tax is going up by, do you have a link Reg?

No, I was chatting to a mate last night who had hot footed from the protest outside the Civic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: AldbourneRed on Friday, November 11, 2016, 23:09:42
Jonathan Pie with his typically apoplectic take on the Trump election

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 11, 2016, 23:48:17
That's really good, reminds me a bit of Bill Hicks


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: AldbourneRed on Friday, November 11, 2016, 23:57:26
Yeah, he's really good, his Youtube channel's full of stuff like that and he's also brilliant live.
He reminds me of a cross between Bill Hicks and Mark Thomas.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Saturday, November 12, 2016, 01:43:00
I saw him at the Swindon Arts centre in September.  It was really good.  Very funny and ranty night out.  Its always nice to see someone who express the apopletic rage I feel a lot better than I would be able to.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 14, 2016, 11:25:23
 More local politics....

 All Swindon schools....MP's, and SBC, receive a stiffly worded report from Ofsted. "Must do better"

 Particular criticism for Primary schools many of which are still with SBC....too many kids can't read. SBC's response, "don't blame us Gov, it's the Acadamies" (close another library)

 Heads....."don't blame us Gov, our funding has been cut"

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, November 14, 2016, 12:00:08
The Torys selling off schools to their mates so they can turn a profit has lead to a drop in standards?! Well I never.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, November 14, 2016, 12:34:28
People can slate labour for many things, but schooling improved significantly under them.
The town in general is really suffering under tory rule now. It is a sorry state of affairs.
People still elect them though. Others say they're all as bad as each other. I beg to differ.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 14, 2016, 12:51:00
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-37971338


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 14, 2016, 12:56:27
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-37971338

It'll be OK, Justin Tomlinson is going to do all he can.....assuming he's now allowed back into Parliament after a 3 match ban, for poor discipline.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, November 14, 2016, 12:58:47
44% of primary school children achieving the required standard would have been a lot higher if the dickhead DoE didn't substantially  change the curriculum/test criteria one year before they were dues to take it. 5 years of being taught one thing, 1 of another. Brilliant.

It doesn't of course excuse being under the 53% national average, though the Adver make no reference to other factors that could account for some of this.

Quote
However, a look at the test results suggests Swindon was only slightly out of step with the national average when it came to individual subjects.

The England average for reading was 66% meeting the expected standard. In Swindon it was 65%.

Grammar, spelling and punctuation saw 72% of pupils in England meet the expected standard. Swindon was exactly the same.

Mathematics saw 69% of children in Swindon meet the expected standard, compared with an England average of 70%.

The problem as far as Key Stage 2 goes is that not enough children did well enough across the board.

So not as disastrously shit as portrayed then


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 14, 2016, 13:02:52
44% of primary school children achieving the required standard would have been a lot higher if the dickhead DoE didn't substantially  change the curriculum/test criteria one year before they were dues to take it. 5 years of being taught one thing, 1 of another. Brilliant.


But won't that have affected kids all over the Country against which these figures are tested, not just Swindon?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, November 14, 2016, 13:03:55
Interestingly, having just moved the kids into the USA education system, we've seen big variations in standards.  Our 7 year old is being pushed much harder than he was in the UK, but it's old school (pardon the pun) teaching here - repetition.  He gets a lot of homework to do which is a new concept to him  However, the parents have to buy all of the kids classroom stuff - pencils, paints, books etc.  You have to buy it all, and each week they send a not home if they are short of stuff.  Also start early, at 8am.

The older child, 16, is finding it clearly doesn't keep up the standard - once they hit about 14 it seems to switch focus to just "getting them through".  They don't begin to narrow focus like we do in the UK, keeping a very broad course structure, and it's as much about effort as it is actual academic performance.  This seems to flow through once finished - the culture here (in the South anyway) is very much work hard and get rewarded with a job, much less need to worry about being any good.  Suppose that's a bit of the every man for himself approach - those who just work hard get job, those who show ability with effort get opportunity, but on their own to an extent.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 14, 2016, 13:12:08
 Do they still get segreagted schools in the South?  I know it's illegal, but like the white flight that was recently highlighted here in the UK, it can happen anyway. With us chuck in faith schools and the jobs a good un. (or bad un depending on your view)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, November 14, 2016, 13:12:09
But won't that have affected kids all over the Country against which these figures are tested, not just Swindon?

Quote from: batch
It doesn't of course excuse being under the 53% national average

Which of course still only stands up if there aren't local factors, like high % of English as second language/dual language speakers, etc. One assumes not, given the letter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, November 14, 2016, 13:16:52
Do they still get segreagted schools in the South?  I know it's illegal, but like the white flight that was recently highlighted here in the UK, it can happen anyway. With us chuck in faith schools and the jobs a good un. (or bad un depending on your view)

It's actually very unsegregated.  There are a lot of private Christian Faith schools though!  Some recent analysis showed New York as the most segregated schooling system - they have to go to the local school in this system, so by having a big racial divide in the actual neighbourhoods, NY performs badly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 28, 2016, 13:34:45
UKIP appear to have voted Eddie Hitler from Bottom as their new leader.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38125432


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, November 28, 2016, 13:54:41
brilliant, knew he reminded me of someone. I'm stealing that!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Monday, November 28, 2016, 15:45:55
 :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 10:28:51
The prime minister counting on their faith on god, in the 21st century.

Fucking hell.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 10:54:09
"In God We Trust" - still the official motto of USA.

it's all odd


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 11:00:39
If faith in God helps them grieve better or lead what they think then so be it.  Religion is the excuse not the reason for half the shit that happens.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 11:14:51
If faith in God helps them grieve better or lead what they think then so be it.  Religion is the excuse not the reason for half the shit that happens.

While it can be the reason for the other half.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 11:17:02
I personally think like i say it's the excuse evil cunts hide behind to try and justify their horrific acts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 11:17:16
"In God We Trust" - still the official motto of USA.

it's all odd

Did you know that wasn't even there until the 50s. Technically speaking America is a secular nation, whereas Britain is not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 11:19:50
I personally think like i say it's the excuse evil cunts hide behind to try and justify their horrific acts.

I think religion is a contributing factor if you are on about terrorism, but terrorism isn't what I had in mind. It goes a lot further than that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 11:22:11
I'm sure it does


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Captain Beefheart on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 11:52:29
Liberty to Tender Consciences and all that.

I haven't a problem with political leaders having a personal religious faith/conviction in God. It becomes problematic when this is explicitly expressed in the political process (America) or if an attempt to impose faith upon others is made.

You're right that it runs deeper. The mentalities of all people are inevitably influenced by religion in some implicit way. Terrorist or civilian.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 11:56:14
"In God We Trust" - still the official motto of USA.

it's all odd

I thought it was 'In Dogs we Thrust'?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 11:57:14

I haven't a problem with political leaders having a personal religious faith/conviction in God. It becomes problematic when this is explicitly expressed in the political process (America) or if an attempt to impose faith upon others is made.


Exactly.

I couldn't give a flying fuck if she believed in magical toilet unicorns, just as long as she keeps it out of her job. Let's hope she does, quick google search already shows she leans toward the pro-life lot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 12:07:56
But do you mean she shouldn't express her beliefs in relation to policies or she should keep quiet about her beliefs even though they do play a part in shaping them?

The end product would be the same either way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 12:10:15
Councillor Heenan taken to court for non payment of council tax. That twat is responsible for the Bruce street bridges farce too!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 12:12:44
Murder there today. Some botch job contractors took 18 months doing it only for the fucking surface to disintegrate within the year.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 12:20:04
But do you mean she shouldn't express her beliefs in relation to policies or she should keep quiet about her beliefs even though they do play a part in shaping them?


I didn't say either of those things, she's free to say what she likes, within reason of course. What she doesn't seem to realise though is that to a rather large section of the population it sound fucking stupid. Not the best course of action for a leader.

She should keep her religion out of her policy making full-stop though. Why the fuck should other peoples' lives be influenced by other peoples' beliefs in fairy tales? Maybe she has no intention of doing so though and we don't even know what her specific beliefs are, so let's not be too hasty. Blair was a devout Christian, he just didn't advertise it.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 12:25:07
Councillor Heenan taken to court for non payment of council tax. That twat is responsible for the Bruce street bridges farce too!

SBC tried to cover this up unsurprisingly.  This Tory hasn't the decency to resign from his position as Councillor and call an election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 12:33:41
Be even harder the hold them to account when the Parish layer of local politics muddies the waters even more.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 12:36:35
Blair was a devout Christian, he just didn't advertise it.


I assume you had your eyes shut during his entire Premiership then?

What's May actually said?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 12:39:32
I assume you had your eyes shut during his entire Premiership then?


I generally don't pay much attention to politics, I could easily have anything he said.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 12:43:50
SBC tried to cover this up unsurprisingly.  This Tory hasn't the decency to resign from his position as Councillor and call an election.

You can check the whole Country here http://www.private-eye.co.uk/councillors although Swindon have not named the person to Private Eye.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Power to people on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 12:48:42
SBC tried to cover this up unsurprisingly.  This Tory hasn't the decency to resign from his position as Councillor and call an election.

He's needs the money to pay his council tax

Have any of this council's traffic easing scheme's worked - I cant see what difference it is going to make at greenbridge looking at what has been done


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 12:52:01
Councillor Heenan taken to court for non payment of council tax. That twat is responsible for the Bruce street bridges farce too!

I would be amazed if he had anything to do with the practical side of things, transport planning/engineering is a very dark art and all based on computer modelling.... I did a project last year in Derbyshire for c.100 new houses, first thought on visiting site was the access is fucking dreadful this will never even get to planning submission, put through transport modelling software and sailed through and now has planning permission!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 13:07:55
I would be amazed if he had anything to do with the practical side of things, transport planning/engineering is a very dark art and all based on computer modelling.... I did a project last year in Derbyshire for c.100 new houses, first thought on visiting site was the access is fucking dreadful this will never even get to planning submission, put through transport modelling software and sailed through and now has planning permission!

He's in charge, the buck stops with him.

Might have has more sympathy if the Bruce Street bridges hadn't made me late for work this morning :). Less than a year for the road substrate to crumble....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 13:11:12
SBC tried to cover this up unsurprisingly.  This Tory hasn't the decency to resign from his position as Councillor and call an election.

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/14934507.BREAKING__Cabinet_member_resigns_over_council_tax_court_case/

oh, OK, resigned from cabinet but not council...riiight.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 13:12:16
I wonder what jackass will rubber stamp the new Aldi opening 50 yards away from the Bruce St Bridges roundabout. That should help ease traffic congestion!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 13:14:26
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/14934507.BREAKING__Cabinet_member_resigns_over_council_tax_court_case/

He's a funny looking bugger, what's going on with his lips!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 13:19:11
I wonder what jackass will rubber stamp the new Aldi opening 50 yards away from the Bruce St Bridges roundabout. That should help ease traffic congestion!

Yeah, that's genius isn't it. But very much SBC MO - sod the traffic infrastructure, build build build


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 13:24:21
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/1575916.councillor_caught_with_no_tax_disc_and_no_insurance/

He's got form has dodgy Dale


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 13:55:49
If it was intentional, it's inexcusable.

If it was because of a lack of organisation/not good with paperwork/didn't check statements/forgot about it, it really is worrying that such a person has been elected to look after public money.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 13:58:58
If it was because of a lack of organisation/not good with paperwork/didn't check statements/forgot about it, it really is worrying that such a person has been elected to look after public money.

On recent form this would make him entirely suitable for a cabinet job (on either side of the house!)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 14:21:45
If it was intentional, it's inexcusable.

If it was because of a lack of organisation/not good with paperwork/didn't check statements/forgot about it, it really is worrying that such a person has been elected to look after public money.

If I've understood his statement properly his excuse was he paid in full twice last year (and got £1,000 refund), which seems a bit irregular. Considering his history he seems a right dodgy sort. Still, to be expected of a Tory


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 15:09:47
If I've understood his statement properly his excuse was he paid in full twice last year (and got £1,000 refund), which seems a bit irregular. Considering his history he seems a right dodgy sort. Still, to be expected of a Tory

The strange thing is that the likes of Heenan, Martin, Perkins and before them Bluh....can be at best described as incompetent, in a Justin Tomlinson Wongagate sort of fashion and still get elected. 

Of course, their party line about keeping Council Tax down plays well, but it just means costs in other ways. So you end up with parishing to pay for peripheral upkeep, crumbling infrastructure in transport, amenities sold off, and a general sense of civic collapse.....see Ofsted letter about education.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 15:52:27
I see he was the Council Tax dodger as well, resigned from the cabinet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 15:54:28
If I've understood his statement properly his excuse was he paid in full twice last year (and got £1,000 refund), which seems a bit irregular. Considering his history he seems a right dodgy sort. Still, to be expected of a Tory

That refers to his avoidance of paying Council Tax, a separate matter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 16:00:44
Oh, ignore me, I'm reading it all back to front :-)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 17:28:40
Ohhh a cheating Tory. Whatever next?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, December 8, 2016, 10:23:59
 Sleaford byelection today.....can UKIP win  :hmmm:

 Have a bit of Sleaford Mods as the backing track for post Brexit Tory Britain.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFFWF1DnZKM

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udp6fZ9vWCI


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 8, 2016, 10:41:46
Sleaford byelection today.....can UKIP win  :hmmm:

 

Be interesting to see as their vote share has been dropping back in a few places post Brexit, although even if it does they have the excuse that Eddie was not in post early enough to make a difference?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, December 9, 2016, 11:40:21
Be interesting to see as their vote share has been dropping back in a few places post Brexit, although even if it does they have the excuse that Eddie was not in post early enough to make a difference?

Bit of a damp squib....UKIP vote drops.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 9, 2016, 12:04:30
Bit of a damp squib....UKIP vote drops.

Possibly the most interesting thing, in light of the entirely predictable outcome, was the total collapse in the turnout from 70.2% last year to a mere 37.1% this time, not sure what that is down to maybe right wing complacency (entirely understandable in a shoe in seat like this) or possibly wider election fatigue. Both Tory and UKIP share dropped by c.2% but that means little, possibly the only minor note was the closeness of the vote between UKIP and Lib Dem? which changed from a c.10% difference to only 2.5% this time.

Labour vote dropped from 17.3% to 10.2%, but not sure how much they are being affected by the upturn in Lib Dem fortunes and thus the 'new' Labour voters finding a home there?

All in all, as expected!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 16, 2016, 13:24:48
Good grief there are some bloody peculiar Tories out there...

Philip Davies is currently filibustering a bill on domestic violence....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...mestic-violence-bill-hour-block-a7479066.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...omen-bill-parliament-equalities-a7479091.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, December 16, 2016, 17:10:58
Incredible


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Friday, December 16, 2016, 18:28:47
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UWMOUKFR7UM/UYQIwNQubcI/AAAAAAAAB_s/CkFrnAoTtKw/s1600/21776276.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 6, 2017, 10:13:37
One for Reg, look at all those Tories in the top 50 www.SexyMP.co.uk

Edited so Reg can click on it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, January 6, 2017, 10:21:43
One for Reg, look at all those Tories in the top 50 SexyMP.co.uk

I would look if there was something to look at....Tories will be doing well to have somthing better than Gloria de Piero.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, January 6, 2017, 10:49:03
  Fuck me...De Piero only gets in at 88. There's some strange people out there....also haven't noticed Stella Creasy anywhere, and she's not to shabby.

 Some of SNP v Tory contests were hard to call.  Not sure I could raise the enthusiasm for a Tory, but if push came to shove (ooh er missus), anything would have to be better than a Jimmy Krankie lookalike.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Friday, January 6, 2017, 11:32:13
One for Reg, look at all those Tories in the top 50 www.SexyMP.co.uk

Edited so Reg can click on it

I see Miss Blackwood is high on the list, I don't think Mrs ghanimah will be impressed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, January 6, 2017, 11:36:33
Jacob Rees Mogg third highest bloke, lovely stuff. The mind boggles.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 6, 2017, 11:57:19
I think there is something fishy with the rankings as the Tories seem to be doing suspiciously well, plus Caroline Flint is well down the list!

Good to see Leicester Liz in her true place though!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 11:32:06
  So major Brexit speech today....which has been released in advance in condensed form. A lot to keep the swivel eyed loons happy, but nothing about forced deportations or gulags, so some will be pissed off. Interesting times ahead....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 12:16:20
Hope the Government know what they are doing, sounds like an exercise in foot shooting right now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 12:25:35
Hope the Government know what they are doing, sounds like an exercise in foot shooting right now.
How?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 12:39:41
Hope the Government know what they are doing, sounds like an exercise in foot shooting right now.

You're dead right, without staying in the Single Market (EFTA/EEA) then we are fucked. No two ways about it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 12:41:02
He isn't dead right, we don't know yet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 12:43:13
Our main negotiating chip appears to be a threat to turn into a tax haven if we don't get a good deal. Not sure how well that's going to go down.

Oh, and they've now said parliament will get a vote on it, having spent loads of money fighting that exact point in the Supreme Court. Not sure I get that. It'd pass by miles anyway, no way a majority of MPs vote to end their careers unless public opinion shifts seismically.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 12:45:49
I think we will go round in circles on this, but to me it sounds like they are ruling out staying in the single market because they can't separate it from the freedom of movement.

So we are now relying on Europe to negotiate a tariff free trade agreement with us to give us best possible access.

Personally I think its a big presumption that the UK economy will be deemed so important to the EU/ danger of becoming a potential tax haven (good point Chubbs) that  it'll end in our favour.

Mind you, the alternative wasn't much better. Stay in, free movement (great!) but no say. Or for those that don't like Johnny Foreigner - free movement not so great (even though whatever we introduce will ultimately stop a fraction of net immigration)

Brexit schmexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 12:45:56
He isn't dead right, we don't know yet.

May has just made every indication we're leaving the SM, having sucked up the free trade nonsense from her Tory lunatic fringe. If we don't stay in the SM (even as a temporary measure) then Batch is dead right this sounds like an exercise in foot shooting right now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 13:05:36
Our main negotiating chip appears to be a threat to turn into a tax haven if we don't get a good deal. Not sure how well that's going to go down.


Incredibly well if you are a huge multi-national or incredibly wealthy, less well if you are unskilled and looking for work, I assume that we will just see loads of companies basing themselves here for tax purposes (great if one is an accountant, lawyer or administrator) but doing manufacturing etc elsewhere in Europe to remain in the EU. Going to lead to an almighty shake up in the employment structure of the country.

I think we will go round in circles on this, but to me it sounds like they are ruling out staying in the single market because they can't separate it from the freedom of movement.

I assume they have based this upon polling/or analysis of why people voted to leave and if this is the outcome they be;live will make the majority happy it rather contradicts the argument that it wasn't all about immigration.

May has just made every indication we're leaving the SM, having sucked up the free trade nonsense from her Tory lunatic fringe. If we don't stay in the SM (even as a temporary measure) then Batch is dead right this sounds like an exercise in foot shooting right now.

I think that it just reveals May to be a massive opportunist and closet Brexiter as to have 'campaigned' to remain and then come up with this is either flip flopping of the highest order or just shows her to be harder to the right than anyone ever imaged (although her authoritarian performance as FS was perhaps a clue).

We will see what happens although I suspect to many her legacy is going to outstrip that of Thatcher.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 13:11:07
 There is a logic to hard Brexit.....namely what was the point in voting out if you still pay to be in without any political input.  Where this will go is hard to tell....many economists have predicted disaster but they tend to be discredited anyway, having largely failed to see the 2008 crash.

 The logic of the Brexiteers is that it will speed up the process of money gushing up from the poor, to enrich their class. Thereby continuing the trend of private affluence, but public squalor, and the further decimation of the outer regions of the UK.

 At least in theory if it goes tits up and leads to civil strife within the UK and not just somewhere distant like Ulster...we still have the option of voting for an alternative.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 15:39:24
I think we will go round in circles on this, but to me it sounds like they are ruling out staying in the single market because they can't separate it from the freedom of movement.

So we are now relying on Europe to negotiate a tariff free trade agreement with us to give us best possible access.

Personally I think its a big presumption that the UK economy will be deemed so important to the EU/ danger of becoming a potential tax haven (good point Chubbs) that  it'll end in our favour.

Mind you, the alternative wasn't much better. Stay in, free movement (great!) but no say. Or for those that don't like Johnny Foreigner - free movement not so great (even though whatever we introduce will ultimately stop a fraction of net immigration)

Brexit schmexit.

Unilaterally limiting free movement within the Single Market as an non-EU Member State is perfectly possible under Article 112 of the EFTA/EEA (single market) agreement. However what we seem to be seeing here is the Westminster bubble effect which inexplicitly renders them unable to use Google, and a Tory party which cannot get to grips, or will not admit to having joined an anti-democratic political union back in 1972.

Instead the Tories rely on the false premise we joined an economic construct rather than a political one and is trying to wriggle out by pretending the EU was always a free trade area that somehow went off "the rails".

The Single Market is a different entity and treaty but without continuing access to it via EFTA/EEA, a "tariff free trade agreement" is a non-starter. It rests on a Swiss based bi-lateral option which has always been a fudge and has taken over two decades and means that neither the EU or the Swiss like it. International treaties are fiendishly complicated and take an age - the average time is about ten year. Agreeing a similar treaty with the EU will be no different and will likely take longer.

There's no easy way to put this - leaving the SM in the short term will be a disaster. To give but one example, we would no longer be part of the European Common Aviation Area. This means we would need to renegotiate bilateral agreements for airlines to fly between the UK and the EU/EEA nations, and for airlines to fly between the UK and other countries. For example, the rights for airlines to fly between the UK and USA is provided for in the EU-US Open Skies Agreement. Without a replacement agreement, this right would be immediately gone.

All aircraft would be grounded, with the obvious economic consequences that would ensure. If this is May's "path" then clearly our parliamentarians are more hopeless than we thought.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 15:52:25
 The EU is primarily a political construct....so it can be unpicked politically or not as the case may be. History tells us though that trade wars usually end in some sort of conflict, so here's hoping the Brexiteers know what they're doing...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 17:32:04
The EU is primarily a political construct....so it can be unpicked politically or not as the case may be. History tells us though that trade wars usually end in some sort of conflict, so here's hoping the Brexiteers know what they're doing...
Gove, Johnson, Farage ... that's a big hope...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 17:41:11
This is just a case of we need to wait and see don't we? No one knows how it is going to end up whatsoever so they in all honestly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 22:06:33
Not sure I get that. It'd pass by miles anyway, no way a majority of MPs vote to end their careers unless public opinion shifts seismically.

I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong, but I think that every poll since um, freedom day, that's re-asked that fateful question has affirmed that we don't want Brexit.

As an exercise in national headbanging stupidity this whole sorry fiasco is surely pretty much unparalleled.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 23:41:19
I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong, but I think that every poll since um, freedom day, that's re-asked that fateful question has affirmed that we don't want Brexit.

As an exercise in national headbanging stupidity this whole sorry fiasco is surely pretty much unparalleled.

Yes because opinion polls have shown themselves to be consistently accurate either here or in America


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 09:35:36
I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong, but I think that every poll since um, freedom day, that's re-asked that fateful question has affirmed that we don't want Brexit.
That's also what the polls showed before the vote and predicted as the outcome of the vote. The only lesson to be drawn there is about the reliability of polls and the wisdom of continuing to rely on them!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 10:09:50
That's also what the polls showed before the vote and predicted as the outcome of the vote. The only lesson to be drawn there is about the reliability of polls and the wisdom of continuing to rely on them!

I think that modern predictive polling suffers from a number of problems, it all seems to have emerged after the 2015 election where no one admitted to voting tory but they obviously did in their droves.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 10:41:24
I think that modern predictive polling suffers from a number of problems, it all seems to have emerged after the 2015 election where no one admitted to voting tory but they obviously did in their droves.

The phenomenon of the shy Tory has always been with us.....back in the 80's pollsters used to conduct post election surveys of how people voted at a recent election....the Tory vote was always well down on the one that counted. 

 I suppose a Tory vote is essentially taken out of self interest, whereas many people like to be thought of as caring for others.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 10:49:33
I had to laugh out load while listening to the Nicky Campbell phone in programme on BBC Radio 5 this morning.  One of the callers, an ardent Leaver, started with a call for the country to come together - as Theresa May has - to put our differences aside, and to make Brexit work now that it's definitely happening.  She then went on - and I'm not making this up - to deride almost all of the Remain voters that she had met while campaigning for a Leave vote as rude, opinionated and aggressive.  She seemed not to spot the irony.

The country is more divided now than ever, and telling folk to come together isn't going to work.  It's an emotional topic, and your vote would have been largely determined by your outlook and how you see yourself and the country.  Telling a Remainer to get behind a programme that they don't believe in makes as much sense as telling a Leeds supporter that they need to start following Man U...because a narrow majority voted in favour of it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 11:17:45
and not to mention Scotland didn't vote out... by some margin...

now it was a UK vote, and I'm not exactly that bothered by Scotland, but you can see their point when whining.

mind you, on an individual level not much different to those that voted remain here either.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 11:28:26
and not to mention Scotland didn't vote out... by some margin...

now it was a UK vote, and I'm not exactly that bothered by Scotland, but you can see their point when whining.

mind you, on an individual level not much different to those that voted remain here either.

I think Sturgeon would be fully justified in calling a 2nd referendum.... not so sure she'd win it mind, but if the Sweaties really want the Euro, Schengen free movement, and a hard border with England and Ulster, they should have the right to choose it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 11:43:53
The emotional case for a 2nd Scottish Independence referendum is much stronger than it was; but the financial argument less so.  But a good number of Leave voters do appear to have voted with their hearts more than with their heads - so it would not be the greatest surprise if voters in a second Scottish Independence referendum were to do the same...especially if the Brexit process is not smooth.

It's clear that, after the Brexit vote, a large number of voters up there feel next to no connection with the rest of the UK, no longer identify as British and want to leave the UK at any cost...in much the same way that many supporters of Brexit want to rid themselves totally of the EU and all its trappings.  I was a supporter of the Union, but I'm much less so now.  I still believe in the value of the union, but I think the Scots have been boxed in to a corner and would not blame them at all if they now chose to take a different path.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 12:06:16
I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong, but I think that every poll since um, freedom day, that's re-asked that fateful question has affirmed that we don't want Brexit.

As an exercise in national headbanging stupidity this whole sorry fiasco is surely pretty much unparalleled.

I assume at some stage the main stream media is going to pick up on what the prominent leavers were saying before the referendum, which merely further illustrates the extent to which May is using an advisory vote to power here own ideological rush to the utopia she so desires...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...rage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 13:00:18
I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong, but I think that every poll since um, freedom day, that's re-asked that fateful question has affirmed that we don't want Brexit.

As an exercise in national headbanging stupidity this whole sorry fiasco is surely pretty much unparalleled.

Would those be the same sort of polls that predicted a stay vote? Yeah, wouldn't be putting much faith in them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 13:06:15
The phenomenon of the shy Tory has always been with us.....back in the 80's pollsters used to conduct post election surveys of how people voted at a recent election....the Tory vote was always well down on the one that counted. 

 I suppose a Tory vote is essentially taken out of self interest, whereas many people like to be thought of as caring for others.

Seems a reasonable overview.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 13:16:28
Do we really want to be led by someone who is so prepared to change her views just to suit the main objective of keeping her personal power and he nose in the Westminster trough!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38653681?post_id=10152902182188513_10154241052008513#_=_

She is getting up to a Blair level of bollocks!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 13:18:11
Seems a reasonable overview.

Apart from the Tory dig again( I'm not one, but it is tedious). Do all your friends have to sing the labour anthem before they are allowed to be your friend Reg ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 13:18:35
She hasn't changed her views has she? She is doing what the majority of people asked the goverment to do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 13:31:27
Even though I do not support Brexit, I do have some respect for the way that Theresa May has sought to implement the result of the vote.  Her personal views are not particularly important.  Yesterday, she was asked directly by Laura Kuennsberg how she could now believe in a 'hard' Brexit involving departure from the Single Market when, only 7 months ago, she was all for staying the EU.  She replied that the economy was stronger than she would have expected after a Leave vote, and that this had caused her to change her view.  I don't believe that for a second.  I'm fairly sure that she still believes that leaving will be damaging.  But she's getting on with it regardless, and trying to give the impression that she's a convert.  It's all she can do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 13:41:19
Even though I do not support Brexit, I do have some respect for the way that Theresa May has sought to implement the result of the vote.  Her personal views are not particularly important.  Yesterday, she was asked directly by Laura Kuennsberg how she could now believe in a 'hard' Brexit involving departure from the Single Market when, only 7 months ago, she was all for staying the EU.  She replied that the economy was stronger than she would have expected after a Leave vote, and that this had caused her to change her view.  I don't believe that for a second.  I'm fairly sure that she still believes that leaving will be damaging.  But she's getting on with it regardless, and trying to give the impression that she's a convert.  It's all she can do.

I would agree to a degree were it not for the fact that she seems to be grabbing the result and then trying to spin it to mean all manner of things which were outside the scope of what was an entirely binary question for what I can only assume are entirely ideological reasons.

The blatant attempts to sideline parliament in the process (I don't really care in terms of Brexit, but would set a terrifying precedent for future governance - especially as it appears the Tories are going to have a free shot at government for the next c.10 years at least) and trying to make out that a vote to leave the EU was actually a vote to leave the single market begins to smell like using a result that says one thing to deliver something in the name of the people that is very different - although no doubt if it goes tits up when will have only been delivering the will of the people!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 13:55:35
I would agree to a degree were it not for the fact that she seems to be grabbing the result and then trying to spin it to mean all manner of things which were outside the scope of what was an entirely binary question for what I can only assume are entirely ideological reasons.

The blatant attempts to sideline parliament in the process (I don't really care in terms of Brexit, but would set a terrifying precedent for future governance - especially as it appears the Tories are going to have a free shot at government for the next c.10 years at least) and trying to make out that a vote to leave the EU was actually a vote to leave the single market begins to smell like using a result that says one thing to deliver something in the name of the people that is very different - although no doubt if it goes tits up when will have only been delivering the will of the people!

I agree with almost all of that.  I'm also stunned that we're heading for the 'hardest' form of Brexit when the mandate for it simply does not exist.

The section of your note that I've put in bold is the piece I'm not sure about.  I don't think she's ideologically driven towards leaving the Single Market, or to Brexit at all.  I fail to see how anyone could perform such an abrupt about-turn in such a short space of time.  Instead, I think that she has concluded - probably correctly - that the 'soft' Brexit option is going to be unworkable and far too difficult to implement.  I think she's been forced in to accepting the most extreme option because, having examined the options in detail, it's the only one she thinks she can deliver.  I would not be at all surprised if, privately, she already believes that she will have to walk away from negotiations all together and to leave without a deal - as she intimated yesterday.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 14:29:43
I think you are paying a huge disservice to those that voted to leave - I'd imagine the vast majority think that leaving the Single Market is a price worth paying to free the country from the EU controls and to, in their mind, get control of immigration (the central issue, hence being tied so closely to the Single Market).

I still believe that 70%+ of the UK population is fundamentaly at odds with the EU goals, so leaving is best for all concerned in the long run, if for no other reason than to allow people to focus on other things.

Personally, I'd sign back up in a heartbeat and allow for full integration, rip up the pound and relegate the concept of countries to sporting teams - so I know I am in a small minority :-)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 14:54:42
Despite my concerns I'm inclined to feel that the idea of hard Brexit will likely result in numerous concessions that mean we end up closer to a soft Brexit, but allows May et al to defend themselves later on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 15:03:49
When the referendum went to the public, in no way shape or form was it pitched as advisory - it was a straight forward in or out - out being hard Brexit. I'm struggling to see any ambiguity here. Teresa May is trying to do the best job of a total Cameron screw up.
Both sides acted appallingly and are still doing so. Politicians and the more extreme ends of both sides have proved themselves unworthy. I voted out and I've had a fair amount of verbal abuse, mainly being told I'm too stupid to have the vote and that people know where to send the bill when their children's don't get a job etc. I understand emotions are high but a lot of the rhetoric is cringeworthy on both sides. Remoaners, Retard Brexiters blah, blah. blah.
The one thing that is fair to say is that the country was not ready to make such a big decision. Disinformation was given on both sides. There should have been a body that had oversight of the referendum to make it clear if it was advisory or not, and in the event of a leave vote, what would need to happen to make it happen. In addition, to ensure both sides acted fairly.
Maybe if the Scottish have another referendum we can learn. Also Jimmy Krankie has to realise that if she thinks she's got a mandate to keep Scotland in the EU then she has a mandate to keep Scotland in the UK. What she hasn't got a mandate for is which one would the Jocks prefer.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 15:12:14
I'd imagine the vast majority think that leaving the Single Market is a price worth paying

Sorry for carving your comment up, but even the Tories in 2015 did not feel that way as their manifesto makes a huge deal about the importance of the Single Market and the party working to strengthen it etc etc.

We find our self in the bizarre position of having a prime minister who has not faced an election even in her own party, let alone the country delivering something that was not explicitly asked in the referendum (and contradicted by many of the key players at the time) and is in direct contrast to whats shown in the very manifesto that got her party elected.

I am not advocating another referendum or any of that bollocks, but how the fucking hell have we as a country ended up in this pseudo-democratic shambles, where the government who got elected on a manifestos they have now ripped up seem to think that they can just deliver what they want to deliver, despite it never having been explicitly put to the elctorate?  ::)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 15:23:07
Apart from the Tory dig again( I'm not one, but it is tedious). Do all your friends have to sing the labour anthem before they are allowed to be your friend Reg ;)

I've got friends and acquaintances from all sides of the political spectrum and none. It is possible to agree to disgree as long as the right to an opposing viewpoint is maintained without intimidation etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 15:35:29
Sorry for carving your comment up, but even the Tories in 2015 did not feel that way as their manifesto makes a huge deal about the importance of the Single Market and the party working to strengthen it etc etc.

We find our self in the bizarre position of having a prime minister who has not faced an election even in her own party, let alone the country delivering something that was not explicitly asked in the referendum (and contradicted by many of the key players at the time) and is in direct contrast to whats shown in the very manifesto that got her party elected.

I am not advocating another referendum or any of that bollocks, but how the fucking hell have we as a country ended up in this pseudo-democratic shambles, where the government who got elected on a manifestos they have now ripped up seem to think that they can just deliver what they want to deliver, despite it never having been explicitly put to the elctorate?  ::)

Murdoch and Dacre want hard Brexit, which is good enough for the Tories....as Ken Livingstone once said, if democracy changed anything it'd be abolished.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 15:41:57
Murdoch and Dacre want hard Brexit, which is good enough for the Tories....as Ken Livingstone once said, if democracy changed anything it'd be abolished.

What a strange use of that (widely quoted but clearly bollocks) quote. Surely you'd struggle to find a better example of democracy changing something that Government* weren't keen to do than Brexit? Murdoch and Dacre may have backed it, but the vast majority of politicians and other public bodies did not.

* and to be clear, me



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 17:25:42
I think you are paying a huge disservice to those that voted to leave - I'd imagine the vast majority think that leaving the Single Market is a price worth paying to free the country from the EU controls and to, in their mind, get control of immigration (the central issue, hence being tied so closely to the Single Market).


I would venture the vast majority of leavers and remainers would accept SM membership access given that it removes us from ever closer political union while guaranteeing economic stability and within that arrangement, free movement can be suspended via Article 112 of that agreement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 17:45:52
I would venture the vast majority of leavers and remainers would accept SM membership access given that it removes us from ever closer political union while guaranteeing economic stability and within that arrangement, free movement can be suspended via Article 112 of that agreement.

Whilst I hate to bring polls back into it.... https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/01/16/public-split-what-kind-brexit-they-think-governmen/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 17:58:22
Whilst I hate to bring polls back into it.... https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/01/16/public-split-what-kind-brexit-they-think-governmen/

I think you've just proved my point, one of questions was about best possible trading links while "following some EU rules and giving up some control of our borders" Neither assertion is true so the poll is meaningless.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 18:04:52
But you are talking about a staging post.  The end goal is clear, full political integration - the model doesn't work unless that is finally achieved at some point.  The cherry picking and influencing from within is a pointless argument over time.  Quite clearly the UK population doesn't want that, so better to get out while the opportunity has presented itself.  I think the UK is wrong, but I know my place in the order of things, which maybe explains why I've leaped over the pond to see what life is like somewhere else (where there is just as much that I am out of kilter with!).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 18:26:54
Personally, I'd sign back up in a heartbeat and allow for full integration, rip up the pound and relegate the concept of countries to sporting teams - so I know I am in a small minority :-)

I'm with you on this


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 22:35:15
Sorry for carving your comment up, but even the Tories in 2015 did not feel that way as their manifesto makes a huge deal about the importance of the Single Market and the party working to strengthen it etc etc.

We find our self in the bizarre position of having a prime minister who has not faced an election even in her own party, let alone the country delivering something that was not explicitly asked in the referendum (and contradicted by many of the key players at the time) and is in direct contrast to whats shown in the very manifesto that got her party elected.

I am not advocating another referendum or any of that bollocks, but how the fucking hell have we as a country ended up in this pseudo-democratic shambles, where the government who got elected on a manifestos they have now ripped up seem to think that they can just deliver what they want to deliver, despite it never having been explicitly put to the elctorate?  ::)

Inbloodydeed  :cry:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 15:17:04
 Good to see the Supreme Court judges remind the Tories that as yet we don't live in a dictatorship, that some of them might desire. A vote in Parliament will make fuck all difference to the Brexit outcome, although some may be able to say told you so, if as some predict te economy goes pear shaped as a consequence


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 15:20:06
We got there eventually, should have been left to parliament to make the decision in the first place


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 16:42:18
But you are talking about a staging post.  The end goal is clear, full political integration - the model doesn't work unless that is finally achieved at some point.  The cherry picking and influencing from within is a pointless argument over time.  Quite clearly the UK population doesn't want that, so better to get out while the opportunity has presented itself.  I think the UK is wrong, but I know my place in the order of things, which maybe explains why I've leaped over the pond to see what life is like somewhere else (where there is just as much that I am out of kilter with!).

Yes you're dead right, full anti-democratic political integration is the ultimate goal. Many in the establishment have always been dishonest about this goal, especially when we joined. Thus the question then becomes one of democracy - shall we be fully integrated into an institution that is immune from the ballot box or shall we remove ourselves and give ourselves the ability to hire and fire those that make our laws.

Not unsurprisingly my view is the latter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 16:45:50
We got there eventually, should have been left to parliament to make the decision in the first place

Parliament has already made the decision, a) to let the people decide via a referendum and b) that Article 50 has to be invoked by the government - conforming to an Act of Parliament (ECA 1972)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Saint on Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 17:08:45
She hasn't changed her views has she? She is doing what the majority  of people (WHO VOTED) asked the goverment to do.
[/b]

Only about 70% of the electorate voted, its not a majority of the people at all is it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 17:17:40
Regardless of how you voted, what a complete cock-up this whole endeavour has been so far.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 17:17:53
[/b]

Only about 70% of the electorate voted, its not a majority of the people at all is it.

Don't go down that path!

Our whole system is flawed if you look into it ref numbers.

You cannot NOT vote and then complain that the Tories got in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 17:40:43
[/b]

Only about 70% of the electorate voted, its not a majority of the people at all is it.

Nor was the 1975 referendum, even worse Heath had absolutely no mandate to take us in given that the electorate, by 3-1, opposed entry into the then EEC after 1970 election - especially so when MPs were physically assaulted in order to force them through the "right" lobby against the public wishes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 20:27:49
Don't go down that path!

Our whole system is flawed if you look into it ref numbers.

You cannot NOT vote and then complain that the Tories got in.
I wasn't able to vote in 2015, can I still complain?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 2, 2017, 17:50:22
Good to see Mrs May using Hillsborough to dishonestly gain political capital in PMQ's yesterday whilst that nice Mr Davies is at it again...
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/feb/02/is-philip-davies-fit-to-be-an-mp?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

At some point will they realise that being labelled the nasty party is not meant as a challenge!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, February 14, 2017, 14:56:05
What a scumbag:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/14/ukip-leader-admits-claim-that-he-lost-close-friends-at-hillsborough-was-false




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, February 14, 2017, 15:17:12
Oh dear.  Another politician who 'mis-spoke'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Private Fraser on Thursday, February 16, 2017, 20:47:12
Trump's marathon press conference today.  Hilarious, mindboggling and scary all rolled into one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 24, 2017, 14:50:00
whilst that nice Mr Davies is at it again...
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/feb/02/is-philip-davies-fit-to-be-an-mp?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

At some point will they realise that being labelled the nasty party is not meant as a challenge!
And again:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/domestic-violence-istanbul-convention-bill-philip-davies-filibuster-parliament-snp-a7597686.html

The Tories' premier pro-domestic violence spokesman. What a shitbag.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, February 24, 2017, 15:19:09
 Interesting byelection results yesterday..... mixed bag for Labour, saw off UKIP in Stoke, but lost Copeland.  As Farron stated UKIP have no further point as the Tory right wing  Brexit coup, has seized their ground. The general question now seems to be how much further to the right can the Tories shift? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 24, 2017, 15:21:22
And again:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/domestic-violence-istanbul-convention-bill-philip-davies-filibuster-parliament-snp-a7597686.html

The Tories' premier pro-domestic violence spokesman. What a shitbag.

He does appear to have a rather large problem with women....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 24, 2017, 15:23:48
Interesting byelection results yesterday..... mixed bag for Labour, saw off UKIP in Stoke, but lost Copeland.
Wouldn't characterise the piss-poor Labour vote in Stoke (7,500 votes in a solid seat shows a massive turn-off against Labour in one of their solid seats) as any kind of victory - UKIP just failed more badly than Labour did.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, February 24, 2017, 15:29:03
Wouldn't characterise the piss-poor Labour vote in Stoke (7,500 votes in a solid seat shows a massive turn-off against Labour in one of their solid seats) as any kind of victory - UKIP just failed more badly than Labour did.

A win is a win.....just like I'll take a 1-0 at Cov after a terrible display, with a 95th minute winner going off the referees arse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 24, 2017, 15:31:16
A win is a win.....just like I'll take a 1-0 at Cov after a terrible display, with a 95th minute winner going off the referees arse.
Neither of which results would mask the obvious long-term decline of the subjects in question. Very pleased that UKIP seem to be properly disappearing up their own jacksies, mind. Anyone want to buy a barely lived in mid-terrace house in Stoke? One careful owner, fond of tweed and not reading the mis-truths on his own website.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 24, 2017, 15:32:12
Interesting byelection results yesterday..... mixed bag for Labour, saw off UKIP in Stoke, but lost Copeland.  As Farron stated UKIP have no further point as the Tory right wing  Brexit coup, has seized their ground. The general question now seems to be how much further to the right can the Tories shift?  

Copeland is not really, as the media have liked to portray, strong Labour territory. Having lived up that way for a few years whilst there are traditional Labour areas on the coast (Whitehaven etc) the vast majority of the constituency is rural farming land and thus traditional Tory territory.

Despite it being a Labour seat for years, in the 80's and early 90's the MP (one of the Cunninghams who seemed to monopolize West Cumbrian politics) only tended to have a c.2k majority over the Tory candidate. Add to that the influx of wealth from Sellafield, the incoming workforce with no traditional links and Corbyns problems with the Nuclear industry and its not really a shock.

Although the kicker for Corbyn was that Theresa May rolled up in the constituency, basically confirmed they are planned to shut a lot of the hospital and shunt services 40+ miles away to Carlisle (where access is crap) and people still voted Tory!

In terms of Stoke the more eye catching thing was despite being shown to have lied (rather unpleasantly in many cases) every time he opened his mouth Nuttall managed to get 24% of the vote, I know many of those who support UKIP, but won't admit why, are trying to spin it as a protest vote but there were plenty of Independents standing?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 24, 2017, 15:41:18
In terms of Stoke the more eye catching thing was despite being shown to have lied (rather unpleasantly in many cases) every time he opened his mouth Nuttall managed to get 24% of the vote, I know many of those who support UKIP, but won't admit why, are trying to spin it as a protest vote but there were plenty of Independents standing?
Because it is a protest vote. Same as Brexit, same as Trump. People are fucking fed up to the back teeth of the corruption, lies and self-serving smugness of the established political class, of all stripes, and are taking the opportunity to give them a thorough kicking. And they'll keep doing it until the smug bastards get the message. Which doesn't look like being any time soon


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, February 24, 2017, 15:48:34
Copeland is not really, as the media have liked to portray, strong Labour territory. Having lived up that way for a few years whilst there are traditional Labour areas on the coast (Whitehaven etc) the vast majority of the constituency is rural farming land and thus traditional Tory territory.

Despite it being a Labour seat for years, in the 80's and early 90's the MP (one of the Cunninghams who seemed to monopolize West Cumbrian politics) only tended to have a c.2k majority over the Tory candidate. Add to that the influx of wealth from Sellafield, the incoming workforce with no traditional links and Corbyns problems with the Nuclear industry and its not really a shock.

Although the kicker for Corbyn was that Theresa May rolled up in the constituency, basically confirmed they are planned to shut a lot of the hospital and shunt services 40+ miles away to Carlisle (where access is crap) and people still voted Tory!

In terms of Stoke the more eye catching thing was despite being shown to have lied (rather unpleasantly in many cases) every time he opened his mouth Nuttall managed to get 24% of the vote, I know many of those who support UKIP, but won't admit why, are trying to spin it as a protest vote but there were plenty of Independents standing?

I think people are coming around to accepting the lie that we can no longer afford the NHS, so that it will need to be privatised. After all, it is still a relatively new creation. What did the good women folk of Cumberland do when sprog dropping pre say 1960. Got on with it, would be the answer...and if you didn't fancy that you paid privately.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, February 24, 2017, 16:45:31
I think people are coming around to accepting the lie that we can no longer afford the NHS,

I think people are coming around to accepting the reality that an ageing population combined with a vastly increased set of treatments that are available to enhance and extend our lives, together with a far greater expectation of the range of treatments that people should have access to has given the country a funding requirement that was unimaginable just a few years ago, let alone in 1945.  It needs to be addressed realistically for the benefit of everyone and in particular for the majority of people who cannot afford to simply buy themselves a private solution.  Party politics, name-calling and shameless headline-grabbling opportunism make it very difficult to have that debate honestly and responsibly in this country but somehow it needs to be done.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, February 24, 2017, 20:15:22
Because it is a protest vote. Same as Brexit, same as Trump. People are fucking fed up to the back teeth of the corruption, lies and self-serving smugness of the established political class, of all stripes, and are taking the opportunity to give them a thorough kicking. And they'll keep doing it until the smug bastards get the message. Which doesn't look like being any time soon
The qualities of corruption, lies and self serving smugness are as widely embodied in UKIP party members as elsewhere.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 24, 2017, 22:03:37
The qualities of corruption, lies and self serving smugness are as widely embodied in UKIP party members as elsewhere.


If anything they seem to be even more concentrated there, ironically, but nonetheless this is why people are turning to far-right populists like Trump, UKIP, FN in France etc as a protest vote. The fact that they also embody the very faults that gave their voters the hump with the major parties in the first place is just one of life's bitter ironies I guess.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 25, 2017, 08:52:31
I don't believe the majority of the population are accepting that the NHS is unaffordable personally. Where I feel we are now and that most people have woken up to the truth is that we can as a country afford only so much for everything including the NHS. The utopia that we can carry on living beyond our means and borrow, borrow, borrow and fucking worry about the debt later astounds me. Or in other words we'll worry about the implications of today's actions when there is an election and the government of the day has to go to the people.

The cake is only so big in any economic cycle, how you slice it up is the difficult bit.

So Reg, you're now a latter day King Solomon, the transgender op for the bloke next door or your hip operation?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Saint on Saturday, February 25, 2017, 09:47:07
Or we could just put up income tax by 3% and live in a civilized society where the ill, the old, the weak and the vulnerable get properly looked after.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, February 25, 2017, 09:58:50
Or we could just put up income tax by 3% and live in a civilized society where the ill, the old, the weak and the vulnerable get properly looked after.

Fucking commie


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Saturday, February 25, 2017, 10:00:51
Or we could just put up income tax by 3% and live in a civilized society where the ill, the old, the weak and the vulnerable get properly looked after.
Decent folk pick up the bill for the tax evading and avoiding bastards. Maybe if they paid their share an income tax increase would be palatable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Saturday, February 25, 2017, 11:25:45
Decent folk pick up the bill for the tax evading and avoiding bastards. Maybe if they paid their share an income tax increase would be palatable.
Very much this.
Can I also add my neighbour, returned to good old Blighty after working abroad for nearly 30 years and for why? His wife developed breast cancer and they needed the NHS.
A women I know moved to Austalia in the 70s and was kicked out as soon as she became a problem to their society. Now living here on benefits.
 We are a soft touch to scroungers, working and middle class, the rich avoiding their obligations and other vested interests.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Saint on Saturday, February 25, 2017, 18:57:01
Very much this.
Can I also add my neighbour, returned to good old Blighty after working abroad for nearly 30 years and for why? His wife developed breast cancer and they needed the NHS.
A women I know moved to Austalia in the 70s and was kicked out as soon as she became a problem to their society. Now living here on benefits.
 We are a soft touch to scroungers, working and middle class, the rich avoiding their obligations and other vested interests.
Yes those utter bastards who try and get cancer treatment for free - it makes me so angry I want to stab myself inthe face


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Saturday, February 25, 2017, 19:01:19
Yes those utter bastards who try and get cancer treatment for free - it makes me so angry I want to stab myself inthe face
I feel for all cancer patients but now the tories are out to kill the NHS, maybe it's services should be for those that have paid for it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, February 25, 2017, 19:18:21
The right wing media love to demonise the poor, unemployed and those on benefits and the gullible lap it up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Sunday, February 26, 2017, 13:53:13
I've come to realise that almost all mainstream media is right wing. The Guardian didn't cover the protests on Downing Street six months ago, when hundreds of thousands gathered, and that was a turning point for me.

Is it the Spectator that properly does it? I know there's that and other magazine, one is right, one left.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, February 26, 2017, 14:14:07
I've come to realise that almost all mainstream media is right wing. The Guardian didn't cover the protests on Downing Street six months ago, when hundreds of thousands gathered, and that was a turning point for me.

Is it the Spectator that properly does it? I know there's that and other magazine, one is right, one left.

 :sherlock:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, February 27, 2017, 17:11:11
I read Private Eye now and then. If more people did then the world would be better for it. Really gives you an insight as to who is doing what. The colour of their rosette may surprise you!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 27, 2017, 17:28:59
I've come to realise that almost all mainstream media is right wing. The Guardian didn't cover the protests on Downing Street six months ago, when hundreds of thousands gathered, and that was a turning point for me.

Is it the Spectator that properly does it? I know there's that and other magazine, one is right, one left.

The thing is if you see whats happening in the states with the SCROTUS banning certain media outlets for daring to question him, you realise that their media is now 100x more independent than ours is, which has become a collection of mouthpieces which generally just tend to tow the government line and present the right wing ideology of their respective proprietors. .

The Spectator is the right wing magazine, and you have the New Statesman to the left. Private eye is generally a good read although somewhat prone to getting involved in long standing crusades about stuff, and also some of the 'factual' reporting on specialist topics is very biased if you actualy know anything about what they are talking about, in my case 'Piloti' is such a case.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, February 27, 2017, 18:09:56
They are indeed independent, but probably even less politically neutral than the UK printed press!  You know precisely what you'll get on Fox News and CNN - the entire "news" comes dripping with political opinion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, February 27, 2017, 18:20:24
I feel for all cancer patients but now the tories are out to kill the NHS, maybe it's services should be for those that have paid for it.

You do realise that you don't pay for it, right?

You pay taxes so that a fund can be managed to appropriately treat those in need who have the right to do so - UK citizens.  Your drawing down against that fund may be more or less than you contributed, the point being you need not worry.

Where debate should be had is the level to which people are funded, and whether some "treatments" should be supplemented by private cover as required.  I'll probably cause hatred here, but IVF is an example for me of something that shouldn't be NHS funded.  If it is something you desire to do, then by all means chip in some extra (unless of course we have a population crisis to avert, in which case we should probably open up more brothels while we are it and Swindon can be at the forefront of the NHS once more, maybe this is what they can put in Milton Road?)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, March 29, 2017, 15:44:10
 So Mr Tusk has received his strongly worded letter from " Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" mind you our recent jihadi was brought up there, so perhaps it's not the place it was.

Anyway I digress. Any TEF politicos like to speculate how things mighty look in 2 years time  :hmmm:

For me the logic is the break up of the Union.... NI to join up with the RoI and Sweaties to go for a version of what might be termed the nouveau Auld Alliance. rGB to become an offshore tax haven sweat shop, with more immigration to grease the profits.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, March 29, 2017, 16:14:44
All I want to know is what are we going to be called when NI and the Scots are gone?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, March 29, 2017, 16:21:48
All I want to know is what are we going to be called when NI and the Scots are gone?

We'll need a new flag. South Britain might work.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Wednesday, March 29, 2017, 16:23:18
Farageland?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, March 29, 2017, 16:36:39
We could just call it England to wind up the Welsh...

Sorry, I forgot we're all united behind Brexit and the Union now. That nice Mrs. May told me so...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 29, 2017, 16:38:38
So Mr Tusk has received his strongly worded letter from " Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" mind you our recent jihadi was brought up there, so perhaps it's not the place it was.



Yeah Kent as an uncanny habit of creating strange 52 year old misfits doesn't it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, March 29, 2017, 16:42:29
Yeah Kent as an uncanny habit of creating strange 52 year old misfits doesn't it!

When they spend time arguing as to whether they're men of Kent or Kentish men it's not surprising.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Wednesday, March 29, 2017, 16:47:19
Yeah Kent as an uncanny habit of creating strange 52 year old misfits doesn't it!

Though they didn't elect him as an MP...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 29, 2017, 16:49:45
When they spend time arguing as to whether they're men of Kent or Kentish men it's not surprising.

I think in the case of both the 52 year olds I am thinking of Trevor McDonald got it entirely right when discussing the Kent Countryside.....

Though they didn't elect him as an MP...

I don't think they elected either of them as an MP did they?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, March 29, 2017, 16:54:44


It's just Kents for me - whether we talking Farage or Khaled Masood or for that matter Gills fans


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Wednesday, April 5, 2017, 19:51:30
This news should provide some fuel to the paranoid Islamophobic fire

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/05/muslim-population-overtake-christian-birthrate-20-years


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, April 5, 2017, 22:09:54
Religious make-up of the world fluctuates shocker!

Whatever did happen to the Greek Gods, anyone seen them lately?

It's odd that they seem to think those who are None will decline due to birth rates.  Surely the Nones are the biggest growing movement in the past few centuries given that pretty much everyone was religious back then?  That must show that the period of industrial advancement has led to people abandoning religion more than moving.  There must be some decent analysis somewhere.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, April 5, 2017, 23:50:43
Religious make-up of the world fluctuates shocker!

Whatever did happen to the Greek Gods, anyone seen them lately?

It's odd that they seem to think those who are None will decline due to birth rates.  Surely the Nones are the biggest growing movement in the past few centuries given that pretty much everyone was religious back then?  That must show that the period of industrial advancement has led to people abandoning religion more than moving.  There must be some decent analysis somewhere.

I always think of Nones as being a Roman calendrical thing along with STFC happy, Ides and Kalends. Whatever happened to Mithraism?

The Romans had some proper strange religious cults before Christianity caught hold. I've always liked the relief of the Gorgon's head in Bath....

(http://www.timetrips.co.uk/rom-relief-sulis-minerva.jpg)

Gorgon's were birds...but this looks like a bloke to me  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, April 6, 2017, 07:58:32
Religious make-up of the world fluctuates shocker!

Whatever did happen to the Greek Gods, anyone seen them lately?

It's odd that they seem to think those who are None will decline due to birth rates.  Surely the Nones are the biggest growing movement in the past few centuries given that pretty much everyone was religious back then?  That must show that the period of industrial advancement has led to people abandoning religion more than moving.  There must be some decent analysis somewhere.

The most accepted research available (referred to in the Guardian article) seems to source from a US Protestant funded charity

Between 2007 and 2050 there are expected to be 60-70 million Christians lost, primarily by switching to Nones.

Like you, I believe the likely movement in this direction to be higher and accelerating.  Nevertheless, take Japan and certainly North America and Europe out of the equation and Christians and Muslims (even more in number) will grow significantly overall both in numerical and percentage terms, mainly down to demographics such as youth and fertility.

I doubt that the quality of the data would allow a precise link to be made between numbers of Nones and Christians plus others and industrialisation per se (the Industrial Revolution was well underway by the time Revd Pitt founded STFC) but world numbers of Christians and Muslims grew massively in the 20th C. and appear to be growing still.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, April 6, 2017, 10:42:16

Whatever did happen to the Greek Gods, anyone seen them lately?


That particular Pantheon is still going strong.
I'm about to pay homage to Dionysus & Silenus.

Gods die when people stop believing in them.
There are plenty out there who need some tlc, just a case of finding one you like the look of and away you go.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Monday, April 10, 2017, 17:32:02
Just saw lizard woman spouting meaningless shite on a Tory party political broadcast. She doesn't even sound like she believes the crap she said.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 11, 2017, 08:07:51
Just saw lizard woman spouting meaningless shite on a Tory party political broadcast. She doesn't even sound like she believes the crap she said.

Was it this one..... http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tory-brexit-advert-embarrassingly-features-aberdeen-port-which-benefited-from-millions-of-eu-funding_uk_58ebb60be4b0c89f91204858?utm_hp_ref=uk&utm_hp_ref=uk  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Tuesday, April 11, 2017, 08:30:44
Was it this one..... http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tory-brexit-advert-embarrassingly-features-aberdeen-port-which-benefited-from-millions-of-eu-funding_uk_58ebb60be4b0c89f91204858?utm_hp_ref=uk&utm_hp_ref=uk  :D

Yep, that's the one. Is it just me, or has she really got the eyes of a psychopath?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 11, 2017, 09:07:11
Yep, that's the one. Is it just me, or has she really got the eyes of a psychopath?

She is most definitely a very peculiar character who has possibly allowed her thirst for 'power' to cloud her judgement, the whole Easter egg fuss whilst not commenting on various matters 20x worse shows either a very skewed moral compass or alternatively that she is just a random quote generator that occasionally malfunctions.

Think she is going to rival Thatcher in terms of long term legacy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, April 11, 2017, 09:12:28
Think she is going to rival Thatcher in terms of long term legacy.
I think that is the harpy's main goal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, April 11, 2017, 11:27:13
She started banging on about Easter because she wants to sell weapons to muslim extremists (The Saudis) in peace.

Here's the poster, if you're eagle eyed you might spot the word Easter in there somewhere...

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/7f818434038ddbcff40fb547adf42fab67df12e1/0_0_490_383/master/490.jpg?w=300&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=4c212ecd1a52480d08e888c7d328e3ce)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, April 11, 2017, 12:01:11
Theresa May is a cunt


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, April 11, 2017, 12:01:49
And not in the light hearted way the word is used on here


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 09:28:37
Theresa May is a cunt
Statement at 11:15.... my money is on a Zola. Reckon the train wreck she's inherited from Cameron is too much for her.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 09:30:14
Press Conference at 11:15.... my money is on a Zola. Reckon the train wreck she's inherited from Cameron is too much for her.

Rumours over weekend was she had enough. Early GE requires repeal of Fixed Parliament Act. I hope she's going, because she's clearly out of her depth.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 09:30:30
Please God not an election. I can't take months more of everything being on fire and everyone fucking hating eachother.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 09:33:34
Please God not an election. I can't take months more of everything being on fire and everyone fucking hating eachother.

Fuck off you leftie liberal cunt


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 09:42:48
Got to be an election, although a resignation would have some comedy value.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 09:43:02
Must be an election, makes sense to call one when there is no credible opposition, almost impossible to lose it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 09:47:16
Ah, that'll be why the FTSE has taken a tumble this morning then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 09:59:43
Fuck off you leftie liberal cunt

Fair.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 10:01:17
Ah, that'll be why the FTSE has taken a tumble this morning then.

Indeed, the government have noted that they have not managed to inflict a fall on it for a week or so and thus thought now would be the time.

Cannot wait to hear the reasoning why Scotland cannot have a referendum as it would be distracting and damaging whilst our noble leading party which has an entirely workable majority feels that these rules do not apply to them?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 10:08:46
June 8th. Never have I been more annoyed at winning a bet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 10:24:02
Whoop, just what the Country needs right now!

Total fucking opportunist farce.... and another £120m+ of public money spunked up the wall just because parliament would not bow down to what Theresa wanted it to do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Panda Paws on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 10:29:57
An obvious move for a party with a slim majority in parliament. They'll strengthen massively given there's no real opposition.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 10:34:34
Oh how I wish there was a popular, united, and effective opposition to May and the Tories. She'll get a much increased majority and perceive it as a mandate to fuck us all harder.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 10:37:04
I'd rather vote Monster Raving Looney Party than Conservative and anyone who does vote Tory is a massive cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 10:38:26
More importantly calling this at such short notice, how is Putin going to get organised?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 10:40:05
Five more years. Time to get an Irish passport and emigrate again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 11:14:41
Are we all getting ahead of ourselves, will Labour actually vote for this to go ahead as whilst I know Corbyn supports it will 100's of Labour MP's basically follow the party whip to likely lose their seats?

The lure of the trough is very strong you know!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 11:21:38
If you vote for Theresa May she's basically just lied for her reasons for calling a general election for a start.
The timing is perfect for her as there is no opposition. Labour too busy trying to oust their leader when they should realise he offers a true opposition instead of the new labour right of centre shite.
The lib Dems were killed off by the Tories when they shared government. And the rest just make up the numbers.
I do hope locally our 2 awful MP's are removed considering the mess the town finds itself in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Panda Paws on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 11:29:46
Corbyn a true opposition? Not even his own party believe that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 11:30:41
Oh how I wish there was a popular, united, and effective opposition to May and the Tories. She'll get a much increased majority and perceive it as a mandate to fuck us all harder.

There is.  But you'll need to move to Scotland if you want to vote for them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 11:58:55
Just been doing a bit of reading of various sources and a few things popped up.....

The Gorton by election will go ahead and thus an MP will be elected to a parliament which will have been dissolved at that date and then will have to fight another election a month later potentially losing seat before ever actually sitting (keep an eye on that one for future pub quiz answers! ;) ).... kind of sums up politics in 2016-2017 UK that....

As once the CPS decide whether to prosecute regarding 2015 election expenses another election will have been held this rather voids the potential for the Tories to lose seats for electoral wrongdoing, although obviously this had nothing to do with Mrs Mays decision I am sure. :hmmm:

If Labour lose a lot of seats in the north to the Tories these will potentially be areas which have been heavily affected by austerity, so will the new intake of Tory MP's be really prepared to do exactly what Mrs May tells them? Likewise if they have won their seats due to the ineptitude of Labour rather than the popularity and policies of their leader will they actually feel they have that much loyalty to her?

This also puts the mockers on boundary changes for now?

What this will do however is mean that Mrs May is no longer hamstrung by Cameroons manifesto of 2015, which was possibly too centreist for her, as he suspected that he may have to keep a coalition partner happy, and thus will allow her free reign in the Lords as they won't vote against things which were covered in the elected manifesto.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 12:03:41
Corbyn a true opposition? Not even his own party believe that.

Yep. It's precisely because he is a completely different opposition with old Labour values that they want to remove him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 12:18:40
Corbyn a true opposition? Not even his own party believe that.

False. The overwhelming majority of The Labour Party do, you know, those that are paid up members who still retain their own ideals. Unlike the self serving MP's, who only give a shit about themselves.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 12:19:12
Yep. It's precisely because he is a completely different opposition with old Labour values that they want to remove him.

Maybe also due to the fact that he is now rivalling 1983 in terms of polling potential and thus a lot of said MP's could find themselves on the rock and roll come the second week in June.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-snap-election-jeremy-corbyn-support-labour-election-defeat-bigger-than-1983-a7688771.html

FWIW I thought Corbyn being elected as leader could be a good thing, it has failed to be so and contributed greatly to the shit storm we are now encountering.

False. The overwhelming majority of The Labour Party do, you know, those that are paid up members who still retain their own ideals. Unlike the self serving MP's, who only give a shit about themselves.

Yeah but whilst we hear so much about Corbyn's 500,000 members that represents about a 1/3 of the Green Party polling at the last election (or 13% of the UKIP vote), if the electorate won't vote for him its essentially a pointless statistic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 12:54:30
I live in an overwhelmingly Tory constituency and I can't see that changing at all...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 13:13:43
I know Brenda is from Bristol, but she does rather sum it up....

https://www.indy100.com/article/brenda-bristol-jon-kay-bbc-general-election-reaction-funny-7688866


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 14:01:04
Are we all getting ahead of ourselves, will Labour actually vote for this to go ahead as whilst I know Corbyn supports it will 100's of Labour MP's basically follow the party whip to likely lose their seats?

The lure of the trough is very strong you know!

Yes because it's the only way the left can get rid of Corbin.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 14:17:06
Dear comrades, if Gordon Brown (remember him?) had the balls to call an election after he was bounced into the job as prime minister (how convenient to forget that when deriding Teresa Mays current position) then he'd have won that easily. Kept the Conservatives and Lib Dems from power sharing, likely as not won the last election maybe with a reduced majority but also stopped the brexit vote. Ta da. You now have effectively the best part of 10 years to wait before the conservatives fuck things up for you to get back to wheelhouse and steer the ship in the opposite direction. Yes I did say fuck things up because that's how the opposition get in. A party does not win an election the government of the day tend to lose it.

So the summer just got so much more exciting for veryone. June election, July league two fixtures, summer holidays, labour leadership contest, BBQ's and the annual party conferences, fantastic. Maybe, just maybe the messiah, a one Tony Blair may make a comeback for you all to cheer on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 14:23:09
Dear comrades, if Gordon Brown (remember him?) had the balls to call an election after he was bounced into the job as prime minister (how convenient to forget that when deriding Teresa Mays current position) then he'd have won that easily. Kept the Conservatives and Lib Dems from power sharing, likely as not won the last election maybe with a reduced majority but also stopped the brexit vote. Ta da. You now have effectively the best part of 10 years to wait before the conservatives fuck things up for you to get back to wheelhouse and steer the ship in the opposite direction. Yes I did say fuck things up because that's how the opposition get in. A party does not win an election the government of the day tend to lose it.

So the summer just got so much more exciting for veryone. June election, July league two fixtures, summer holidays, labour leadership contest, BBQ's and the annual party conferences, fantastic. Maybe, just maybe the messiah, a one Tony Blair may make a comeback for you all to cheer on.

They see me trollin'.......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 14:32:43
 Whatever the outcome, it is important that people get the opportunity to vote for the policies which will confront the ordinary punter in the next number of years.

 If people want the break up of the Union, exit from the single market, but still high immigration, then they should get the opportunity to vote Tory.

 A major opportunity for the Lib Dems, to try and capture a chunk of the 48% remain vote, an opportunity for the Labour Party to put out some genuine left wing ideas and let the people decide.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 15:18:06
Yes because it's the only way the left can get rid of Corbin.

I don't think the left want rid of Corbyn?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 15:23:33
I don't think the left want rid of Corbyn?
Nor do the right


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 16:00:11
Nor do the right

I assume that position has changed what with Chairwoman Mays announcement of today?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 16:51:55
I'll be voting Labour. The policies coming out recently are excellent.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 17:45:19
I'll be voting Labour. The policies coming out recently are excellent.

Don't be naive Jayo. It's not about policies; most people don't even read them. The media have and will continue, to portray Corbyn as a bumbling incompetent and not even highlight his plans.

After the Brexit vote I'm willing to bet money that the tories will win by a landslide. People are mental..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 18:16:01
Don't be naive Jayo. It's not about policies; most people don't even read them.
Given that most politicians renege on them the minute the election's over, do you blame them?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 18:28:03
I'll be voting Labour. The policies coming out recently are excellent.

Me too.
Don't be naive Jayo. It's not about policies; most people don't even read them. The media have and will continue, to portray Corbyn as a bumbling incompetent and not even highlight his plans.

After the Brexit vote I'm willing to bet money that the tories will win by a landslide. People are mental..

Completely agree with this. Very sad indeed. Such selfish and insular non society times we are now living in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 05:17:35
Whoop, just what the Country needs right now!

Total fucking opportunist farce.... and another £120m+ of public money spunked up the wall just because parliament would not bow down to what Theresa wanted it to do.

More likely it's a case of it's dawned on May, rather belatedly, that leaving the EU within two years with a trade deal is not going to happen. Remaining in the EEA (Single Market) is the only way to come out relatively quickly and smoothly. In addition she is going to have to make some unpopular compromises over contributions to the EU budget all just before an election in 2020.

By having an election now, which she is very likely to win, gives her more time - it won't surprise me if she then requests an extension to Article 50. Also if she wins with a bigger margin then it dilutes the influence of the 'Lunatic Fringe' part of the Tories (Redwood, Liley) who are pressing hard for the disastrous WTO option. If so it will allow her to U-turn on her ruling out remaining part of the EEA.

If so, then this GE will be good news.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 06:56:46
I fear the posts here on politics don't even hit the Townend's own modest 80% bollocks quota - which is easily eclipsed by most other media.

It would be a laugh to have a THETOWNEND.COM poll of voting intentions.  Anyone able or willing to set one up?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 06:58:27
I fear the posts here on politics don't even hit the Townend's own modest 80% bollocks quota - which is easily eclipsed by most other media.

It would be a laugh to have a THETOWNEND.COM poll of voting intentions.  Anyone able or willing to set one up?

I'm on it....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 08:51:31
More likely it's a case of it's dawned on May, rather belatedly, that leaving the EU within two years with a trade deal is not going to happen. Remaining in the EEA (Single Market) is the only way to come out relatively quickly and smoothly. In addition she is going to have to make some unpopular compromises over contributions to the EU budget all just before an election in 2020.

By having an election now, which she is very likely to win, gives her more time - it won't surprise me if she then requests an extension to Article 50. Also if she wins with a bigger margin then it dilutes the influence of the 'Lunatic Fringe' part of the Tories (Redwood, Liley) who are pressing hard for the disastrous WTO option. If so it will allow her to U-turn on her ruling out remaining part of the EEA.

If so, then this GE will be good news.

May says she has called this election due to opposition in Parliament to her Brexit strategy. It's obviously within her own party... so once again we see a Tory PM, go to the polls to try and sort the rift which splits the party. I don't suppose there's any chance the Brexit plan will be outlined for people to decide upon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 08:53:18
May says she has called this election due to opposition in Parliament to her Brexit strategy. It's obviously within her own party... so once again we see a Tory PM, go to the polls to try and sort the rift which splits the party. I don't suppose there's any chance the Brexit plan will be outlined for people to decide upon.

That's assuming she even has a plan...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 09:07:59
That's assuming she even has a plan...

She was briefed on an exit plan but decided against it which is why Ivan Rodgers resigned last year over what he called "muddled headed thinking".

However she and other ministers have belatedly woken up to the fact we can't simply treat a 45 year affair with the EU as a one night stand. Not least because the EU has told her, rightly, that we can't have a trade deal until we leave and become a "third country".

Thus in my view it's one reason for the GE. A mandate gives her the opportunity to come up with an EEA, or equivalent, proposal for leaving against the wishes of her lunatic fringe which hitherto have had a disproportional influence in her party. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 09:51:52

Thus in my view it's one reason for the GE. A mandate gives her the opportunity to come up with an EEA, or equivalent, proposal for leaving against the wishes of her lunatic fringe which hitherto have had a disproportional influence in her party. 

Alternatively gets it over and done with now whilst people still believe the positive spun bollocks being spouted by the Mail et al and avoid fighting an election when the job losses bite and the EU starts telling her to fuck off with her bat crap crazy ideas?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 12:42:19
Alternatively gets it over and done with now whilst people still believe the positive spun bollocks being spouted by the Mail et al and avoid fighting an election when the job losses bite and the EU starts telling her to fuck off with her bat crap crazy ideas?

May still has to win a GE in 2022, and tanking the economy is not conducive to winning elections. As I understand it Ivan Rodgers has been re-employed on a contract which suggests even more that May is going for an EEA deal. She really doesn't have a choice.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, June 19, 2017, 08:35:59
 Right, Brexit negotiations start today.  Although no doubt that means it's more talks about talks, with a decent lunch thrown in, at this point. 

This is going to be fun :popcorn:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 19, 2017, 09:02:23
May still has to win a GE in 2022, and tanking the economy is not conducive to winning elections. As I understand it Ivan Rodgers has been re-employed on a contract which suggests even more that May is going for an EEA deal. She really doesn't have a choice.

I suspect there is more chance of Reg being Tory leader than May in 2022....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, June 19, 2017, 09:33:31
Brexit:  Anything a May administration negotiates would surely be voted down in the Commons and blocked by the Lords.  I suspect the Tories dare not call an election now, even with a new leader.  Some time next year, with help from the usual press suspects talking about surrender and betrayal of the referendum, someone like Johnson will be able to challenge May "in the national interest" and perhaps also risk calling a GE.  The Tories may calculate that a re-energised UKIP may cost them some seats but may cost Labour a good deal more.  The Tories will also up their game on social media.

Is there any point the EU negotiating with May for now in what is likely to be posturing without substance?  Let's hope the lunches Reg recommends are indeed worthwhile.

On a separate note, sorry to note that Jo Swinson is apparently not going to stand for the leadership of the Lib Dems.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chubbs on Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 08:27:33
I see talk with a DUP are going swimmingly...Surly May is walking on thin ice.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 08:31:37
I see talk with a DUP are going swimmingly...Surly May is walking on thin ice.

DUP don't do talking, just shouting....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 09:27:08
So how come bribery is OK in politics but illegal in all other walks of life?

Wonder what old motormouth the Rev Ian Paisley would have made of it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 09:30:46
I see talk with a DUP are going swimmingly...Surly May is walking on thin ice.
Good nickname. Hardly surprising is it, if she can't face doing an interview on Woman's Hour, she's not exactly the world's toughest negotiator. All bodes well for Brexit, doesn't it? Nice to see David "Hard as they come" Davis rolling over on what he'd promised would be "the row of the summer" on the 1st day of Brexit negotiations too. Fucking pathetic, the lot of them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 10:09:56
Good nickname. Hardly surprising is it, if she can't face doing an interview on Woman's Hour, she's not exactly the world's toughest negotiator. All bodes well for Brexit, doesn't it? Nice to see David "Hard as they come" Davis rolling over on what he'd promised would be "the row of the summer" on the 1st day of Brexit negotiations too. Fucking pathetic, the lot of them.

I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when Davis had to ring Mrs May after that meeting,

'So did it all go well David, did you get all the points across I told you regarding it needing to be a process in tandem between trade matters and procedural matters for leaving, which we can demand, what with being so strong and stable'

'Oh yes Theresa it went swimmingly I went in and as you told the British people I would, said we demanded a parallel process which we can demand as we are so strong and stable, are acting on the will of the people and have a mandate to leave the Customs Union and don't forget you need us considerably more than we need you'

'Oh good stuff David that would have socked it to them, shown them how strong and resolute I am and really put the fear into them, so how did they respond'

'Theresa - they laughed at me'

'They did what, do they not know who I, sorry you, are?'

'Yes they laughed for quite a long time.......... them they told me to remove my trousers'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 10:10:33
So Theresa May is promising humility within the Queens speech... have we really come to the stage that she thinks this is a positive that should be emphasised, should it not be a given from a government acting for the population...

Or perhaps it should not be taken for granted? http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-savoy_uk_59493a8ce4b07499199ed1a6


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 15:14:06
So Theresa May is promising humility within the Queens speech... have we really come to the stage that she thinks this is a positive that should be emphasised, should it not be a given from a government acting for the population...

Or perhaps it should not be taken for granted? http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-savoy_uk_59493a8ce4b07499199ed1a6

I don't have too much of a problem with this...it seems to be the result of the election, so you can do Brexit, (form to be negotiated), you can do internal security stuff, but you can't do grammar schools, fox hunting, shafting us old folk, and starving little tackers who can't afford a school dinner.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 20:27:45
A real life, unfunny Partridge

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40358874/ed-is-tutored-by-barney-greenway-of-napalm-death-in-the-fine-art-of-extreme-metal-vocals


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 20:57:57
The DUP want £2b as a sweetener to prop up the government. I'd say that's a cheap alternative to the Marxist Corbin & McDonnel chucking money around for five years like there is no tomorrow.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 21:55:15
yeah, let's hope the government get into bed with a bunch of raving fucknuggets. that would be great.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 22:01:43
The DUP want £2b as a sweetener to prop up the government. I'd say that's a cheap alternative to the Marxist Corbin & McDonnel chucking money around for five years like there is no tomorrow.
Not only did you misspell Corbyn but somehow you typed Marxist when you meant socialist.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 22:56:37
I think using bin instead of byn is a form of top bantz


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 22, 2017, 08:22:07
The DUP want £2b as a sweetener to prop up the government. I'd say that's a cheap alternative to the Marxist Corbin & McDonnel chucking money around for five years like there is no tomorrow.

Not only did you misspell Corbyn and McDonnell but somehow you typed Marxist when you meant socialist.

Corrected for you....

Whilst bribery is a crime I understand I assume that is not the case in politics?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 22, 2017, 08:34:53
Just remember that this guy is a senior member of our government and represents us abroad....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/21/hang-on-a-second-boris-johnson-flounders-on-interview-circuit

If you want to hear him in action, just go here from 26 minutes in if you fancy a laugh. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08tvjfq#play

Embarrassing really, but then again he has certain attributes which mean he won't get the kicking Abbott did.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, June 22, 2017, 08:45:17
he's like Samson, he survives in the public's eye because of his funny hair.

I'm convinced of it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 22, 2017, 11:20:19
Out of touch, much?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/22/philip-hammond-mocked-brexit-house-analogy-revealed-rich/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, June 22, 2017, 12:13:16
Not only did you misspell Corbyn but somehow you typed Marxist when you meant socialist.

Sorry, communists.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Thursday, June 22, 2017, 12:39:34
Sorry, communists.

Confusing Socialists for Marxists or Communists is common for fascists. Sorry, I meant Nazis.  No, Tories, I meant Tories....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Thursday, June 22, 2017, 13:05:50
Confusing Socialists for Marxists or Communists is common for fascists. Sorry, I meant Nazis.  No, Tories, I meant Tories....
I think you mean Daily Mail readers?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hefty toe on Thursday, June 22, 2017, 13:06:23
My word these political threads are tedious. Some people like Conservatives; some like Labour; some like Lib Dems; some like others.  I know dickheads who vote Labour and dickheads who vote Conservatives and good people who vote Labour and good people who vote Conservatives.  People are very intolerant of views that differ from their own it would seem.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 22, 2017, 13:08:59
My word these political threads are tedious.
Maybe don't read them then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hefty toe on Thursday, June 22, 2017, 13:12:18
I don't typically.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Thursday, June 22, 2017, 14:15:15
My word these political threads are tedious. Some people like Conservatives; some like Labour; some like Lib Dems; some like others.  I know dickheads who vote Labour and dickheads who vote Conservatives and good people who vote Labour and good people who vote Conservatives.  People are very intolerant of views that differ from their own it would seem.

There's a clue to the content in the title...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Blimp on Thursday, June 22, 2017, 14:47:12
My word these political threads are tedious. Some people like Conservatives; some like Labour; some like Lib Dems; some like others.  I know dickheads who vote Labour and dickheads who vote Conservatives and good people who vote Labour and good people who vote Conservatives.  People are very intolerant of views that differ from their own it would seem.

Yeah it's not like its important or anything right, nobody ever died because of politics or anything.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Thursday, June 22, 2017, 14:53:25
A real life, unfunny Partridge

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40358874/ed-is-tutored-by-barney-greenway-of-napalm-death-in-the-fine-art-of-extreme-metal-vocals

I thought it was hilarious


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Thursday, June 22, 2017, 15:09:20
I think you mean Daily Mail readers?

Even the Nazi's aren't that right wing ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, June 30, 2017, 12:06:43
 I see various government agencies are starting to get a bit fretful about air pollution caused by cars/lorries etc.

 Apparently about 40,000 people a year die prematurely due to ailments associated with this.... it's estimated that the cost to the NHS runs into 10's of billions.

Some of the worst offenders are apparently people on the school run, who sit outside the school with engines idling... children being particularly susceptible to the malign consequences of pollution. With this in mind, it is being proposd that there should be a spot fine for this offence.

In Swindon, you can see strategically placed air pollution monitoring stations, but you never hear about the results.... however go and sit up on Liddington on a still winter's day and you can see a layer of photochemical smog lurking over the town and stretching away down the VWH.

I don't suppose our two esteemed MP's give a shit mind.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, July 1, 2017, 12:19:13
There's another one of these big protests against austerity, the Tories and generally all that kind of stuff in London today, which is obviously generating a lot of tweets and what not.

Now, I'm probably generally on the same side of centre as most of these people, and don't generally hate the idea of protests against specific things, but what on earth is the point of this? We had an election less than a month ago, that was the perfect time to get rid of the governing party. Perhaps every single one of the people marching in London today campaigned hard against the Tories and if they did, fair play, but what, genuinely, is going to be achieved by going on a march with a bunch of people who agree with you with no real clear goal?

Maybe I'm missing the point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, July 1, 2017, 12:58:49
Tend to agree there. Pointless in this context.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, July 1, 2017, 14:38:57
There's another one of these big protests against austerity, the Tories and generally all that kind of stuff in London today, which is obviously generating a lot of tweets and what not.

Now, I'm probably generally on the same side of centre as most of these people, and don't generally hate the idea of protests against specific things, but what on earth is the point of this? We had an election less than a month ago, that was the perfect time to get rid of the governing party. Perhaps every single one of the people marching in London today campaigned hard against the Tories and if they did, fair play, but what, genuinely, is going to be achieved by going on a march with a bunch of people who agree with you with no real clear goal?

Maybe I'm missing the point.

If you want to be politically active, then it should be more than just about knocking on doors, holding dull meetings in cold back rooms etc.

A good demo is a way of raising spirits, showing that you're not alone in thinking and feeling the way you do.  It can help recruit people to the cause, and a good way of meeting nice birds.

Of course, it will make next to bugger all difference, further than at the moment the Tories know they're going to have to behave.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Saturday, July 1, 2017, 15:30:36
I see various government agencies are starting to get a bit fretful about air pollution caused by cars/lorries etc.

 Apparently about 40,000 people a year die prematurely due to ailments associated with this.... it's estimated that the cost to the NHS runs into 10's of billions.

Some of the worst offenders are apparently people on the school run, who sit outside the school with engines idling... children being particularly susceptible to the malign consequences of pollution. With this in mind, it is being proposd that there should be a spot fine for this offence.

In Swindon, you can see strategically placed air pollution monitoring stations, but you never hear about the results.... however go and sit up on Liddington on a still winter's day and you can see a layer of photochemical smog lurking over the town and stretching away down the VWH.

I don't suppose our two esteemed MP's give a shit mind.



You can get the results by contacting the Environmental Protection section at SBC. Should disclose without an FOI.  A few years ago, Kingshill Rd was an area causing concern and there was some talk of rerouting buses to alleviate. Talk being the operative word. Doubt much has changed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Saturday, July 1, 2017, 19:23:24
Did strike me as essentially a bit of a protest against democracy today.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Saturday, July 1, 2017, 20:55:39
Agree with the above. Was in Piccadilly Circus as they walked by. Something bizzare about an anti austerity protest going past the m&m store


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, July 2, 2017, 08:43:00
Did strike me as essentially a bit of a protest against democracy today.

How's that?  The only party that stood on a platform of support for continuing with austerity was the Conservatives, and they polled 42% of the vote.  So 58% voted for parties that were either against austerity or neutral.  Yet another example of the distortion produced by First Past the Post.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Sunday, July 2, 2017, 10:07:27
Yet another example of the distortion produced by First Past the Post.

100% agree, I hate FPTP


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Sunday, July 2, 2017, 11:00:55
How's that?  The only party that stood on a platform of support for continuing with austerity was the Conservatives, and they polled 42% of the vote.  So 58% voted for parties that were either against austerity or neutral.  Yet another example of the distortion produced by First Past the Post.

What's your point?
They still polled more of the vote than any other single party.
It seems to me and it was the same with Brexit, that you didn't get the result you were personally hoping for and think that by protesting it will somehow change the result!!

It's the spoilt kid syndrome, I didn't get what I wanted so I'll scream and scream until I'm sick (a reference to a TV program for the older generation)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Sunday, July 2, 2017, 12:50:56
Or exercising a democratic right to protest and/or make you opposition known?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, July 2, 2017, 12:53:42
What's your point?
They still polled more of the vote than any other single party.
It seems to me and it was the same with Brexit, that you didn't get the result you were personally hoping for and think that by protesting it will somehow change the result!!

It's the spoilt kid syndrome, I didn't get what I wanted so I'll scream and scream until I'm sick (a reference to a TV program for the older generation)
That's a stupid comparison.  The Brexit vote was a clear choice between two options. Out of those that could be bothered to vote, Brexit won. I was against Brexit but have to abide by the majority vote, as much as I think it's a fucking car crash.
Austerity is something totally different and, as mentioned in a previous post, doesn't have a mandate from the majority of voters. The Tories rely on the feeble minded to keep voting for them, ably supported by white rags like the mail, sun and torygraph with their scare stories and 'fact manipulation'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Sunday, July 2, 2017, 13:43:02
That's a stupid comparison.  The Brexit vote was a clear choice between two options. Out of those that could be bothered to vote, Brexit won. I was against Brexit but have to abide by the majority vote, as much as I think it's a fucking car crash.
Austerity is something totally different and, as mentioned in a previous post, doesn't have a mandate from the majority of voters. The Tories rely on the feeble minded to keep voting for them, ably supported by white rags like the mail, sun and torygraph with their scare stories and 'fact manipulation'.

Again, you don't get the result that YOU wanted and you think that you're right and everyone else is wrong!!
Take your head out of your arse and accept the result and try and get the result you want next time snowflake....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Sunday, July 2, 2017, 13:59:26
Cunt


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Sunday, July 2, 2017, 14:25:36

Had to look up snowflake in terms of it's current in vogue usage.

Nah, not good. Hopefully the increasing rarity of proper winters means that the current derogatory term doesn't eventually replace it's proper descriptive meaning.

"It's all bollocks" sums it up for me.





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Sunday, July 2, 2017, 20:13:09
The argument of "you lost, get over it" is so fucking banal it's not even worth debating. Especially when used in the defence of democracy. Shall we all just stop talking about politics till the next general election then? How bizarre.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, July 2, 2017, 20:21:42
Like the term "snowflake", it seems to be an import from the American right. Don't think our political discourse, fucked though it may be in many ways, needs any direction from them. We've seen where that leads


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 3, 2017, 07:29:05
Like the term "snowflake", it seems to be an import from the American right. Don't think our political discourse, fucked though it may be in many ways, needs any direction from them. We've seen where that leads

The irony is that Snowflake was originally a term used to the hard right to throw at those who did not agree with them, however evidence has shown that the biggest snowflakes of all seem to be located within the hard right as shown by their poster boy Donny T.

Sadly most to the right don't understand what irony means, although they tend to concentrate on the IASEF mantra which has got them do far in life and will sustain them till their dying day.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, July 3, 2017, 10:56:44
Fucking Johnson and Gove still playing internal Tory party politics with what are actually serious issues to most people. This time they're fucking around with pretending to support relaxing the pay cap to put pressure on Hammond (because he's said he won't allow more borrowing and they're trying to crack on it can be done without raising taxes). These two fucking clowns already gambled the nation's future on the Brexit debacle to further their own worthless careers, and they're still at it. They never learn, despicable shits the pair of them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, July 3, 2017, 11:13:03
The term 'snowflake' when used in this context is inherently ironic.

It is used to complain about people because they are complaining about people...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Monday, July 3, 2017, 18:48:02
Perfect!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, July 4, 2017, 15:02:19
You can get the results by contacting the Environmental Protection section at SBC. Should disclose without an FOI.  A few years ago, Kingshill Rd was an area causing concern and there was some talk of rerouting buses to alleviate. Talk being the operative word. Doubt much has changed

I think it should be incumbent on SBC to reveal the information so that citizens can take it into consideration when planning journeys etc.

Yesterday, I saw a fella, oriental, so guessing Japanese, probably attached to Honda, wandering around with one of those face masks on in OT, that they wear in Beijing, Tokyo etc.  Perhaps he's contacted environmental protection.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Monday, July 10, 2017, 16:30:22
We've all got a few old phrases we use. But would you drop the old classic, "the real nigger in the woodpile" in parliament, or are you perhaps living in the 21st century, or back end of the 20th even, and are not institutionally racist?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40555639


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Monday, July 10, 2017, 16:46:18
What is this I don't even...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, July 10, 2017, 17:33:52
It's certainly one of those phrases that just occasionally slips out during debate.  In fact, I am sure it probably happens more regularly to those of us who have lots of black friends.................


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 10, 2017, 17:50:31
We've all got a few old phrases we use. But would you drop the old classic, "the real nigger in the woodpile" in parliament, or are you perhaps living in the 21st century, or back end of the 20th even, and are not institutionally racist?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40555639

There are more important things to worry about. It's not really news that a Tory MP might not realise what is inappropriate, whether racist or not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, July 10, 2017, 19:13:41
I've literally never heard the phrase used. I'm not sure I even get it, is the implication just that you wouldn't be able to see someone with dark skin against dark (presumably burnt) wood or is it more weird and sinister than that?

Mind you, I didn't even realise that eenie meanie miney mo had a racist origin. Different times to a point, but it doesn't excuse anyone being thick enough to use it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, July 10, 2017, 19:32:20
I'd suggest Corbynistas calling a fellow labour MP a'fucking Jew bitch' is hardly PC. But, hey, who wants to hear about that


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, July 10, 2017, 19:42:34
I've literally never heard the phrase used. I'm not sure I even get it, is the implication just that you wouldn't be able to see someone with dark skin against dark (presumably burnt) wood or is it more weird and sinister than that?

Mind you, I didn't even realise that eenie meanie miney mo had a racist origin. Different times to a point, but it doesn't excuse anyone being thick enough to use it.
I think the next line of the rhyme give that one away Nemo, although me being a tad bit older, they may well have changed it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 10, 2017, 19:53:28
think its tiger these days Chalkie


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, July 10, 2017, 20:12:57
Yeah like the old nursery rhyme baa baa black sheep do you have a knife has now been replaced with 'wool'

PC gone mad!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, July 10, 2017, 21:58:23
I've literally never heard the phrase used. I'm not sure I even get it, is the implication just that you wouldn't be able to see someone with dark skin against dark (presumably burnt) wood or is it more weird and sinister than that?.
Allegedly, it refers back to the days of escaped slaves in the US, i.e. that a slave on the run might literally hide in a wood pile, outhouse, barn etc. And then passed into more general use to mean a (usually unpleasant) unexpected surprise. Astonishing that anyone could use the n-word these days. Cue the usual apologists giving it "Oh but rappers do" like that makes anything acceptable.

What's more interesting about this story is that it further tightens the knot on Teresa's already waffer-thin majority, even with the mad gunrunners


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Monday, July 10, 2017, 22:26:04
This is why people like me are turned off politics. Someone says something and you get responses like "yeah, but it's to be expected from those cunts" or "yeah but the opposition said worse"

Someone said something fucking disgusting. It's not acceptable. It doesn't matter if she was a Tory MP or a fucking Clanger.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Blimp on Tuesday, July 11, 2017, 07:15:44
This is why people like me are turned off politics. Someone says something and you get responses like "yeah, but it's to be expected from those cunts" or "yeah but the opposition said worse"

Someone said something fucking disgusting. It's not acceptable. It doesn't matter if she was a Tory MP or a fucking Clanger.

Well dear, it is because the Tories are more likely to be Racist, or chauvinistic, as that is what right wing really means, most of them are Racist under the surface so it's unsurprising people commenting when they show their true colours.

You really should take more interest in politics,  men like that in a young lady.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, July 11, 2017, 07:30:22
Well dear, it is because the Tories are more likely to be Racist, or chauvinistic, as that is what right wing really means, most of them are Racist under the surface so it's unsurprising people commenting when they show their true colours.

You really should take more interest in politics,  men like that in a young lady.

Fucking hell. I don't even know where to start with that other than you should probably watch where you're throwing those chauvinistic stones or you'll cause major structural damage to your glass house.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 11, 2017, 07:57:39
This is why people like me are turned off politics. Someone says something and you get responses like "yeah, but it's to be expected from those cunts" or "yeah but the opposition said worse"
Don't think anyone did react like that did they?

EDIT: Missed Audrey's comment. Well apart from Audrey being a Bellend then?

Someone said something fucking disgusting. It's not acceptable. It doesn't matter if she was a Tory MP or a fucking Clanger.
Quite


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, July 11, 2017, 09:24:34
Don't think anyone did react like that did they?

EDIT: Missed Audrey's comment. Well apart from Audrey being a Bellend then?
Quite

Think Ells is having a little dig at my comment that it isn't important in the grand scheme of things. For example, on the same day, a bit of a parliamentary storm is brewing over the UK leaving Euratom. For those unaware it's the Euro wide body that regulates the movement etc of nuclear material

This seems to be one of those unintended consequence things.... you don't need to be in the EU to be in it, but it is administered by ECJ, hence why we're leaving. The sort of consequence, will be increased difficulty in getting isotopes for use in chemo for cancer patients etc

Labour/Lib Dems wants us to stay, and several Tory MP's also....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 11, 2017, 09:35:43
So I missed Audrey's comment and I missed yours too. Think I'm going senile :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 11, 2017, 13:31:27
Irrelevant on where one stands on Brexit this is getting fucking embarrasing for both the government and the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40571123

Should they not be reporting the fact that we appear to have no plan instead of publicising Boris's dog whistles to the right of his party. The fact that there appears to be no risk or contingency planning (and in fact pride that there isn't apparently) would be frightening for a SME, let alone a government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, July 11, 2017, 14:47:52
Irrelevant on where one stands on Brexit this is getting fucking embarrasing for both the government and the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40571123

Should they not be reporting the fact that we appear to have no plan instead of publicising Boris's dog whistles to the right of his party. The fact that there appears to be no risk or contingency planning (and in fact pride that there isn't apparently) would be frightening for a SME, let alone a government.

Teling Johnny Foreigner to fuck off always plays well with the British electorate.... a good war (Falklands) even better. Blair wasn't ejected by the electorate by a bad war (Iraq.)

If Boris declares war on France he'd be a shoo in for PM.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, July 13, 2017, 10:39:09
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/13/saudi-arabia-boosting-extremism-in-europe-says-former-ambassador

Fancy going from dealing with the Saudis to dealing with Jed et al.... obviously not el al.

I'm not certain about this government ruling that we shouldn't know who funds domestic terrorism... clearly the Tories want to carry on selling arms to the Saudis, Qataris etc as their share portfolios would suffer, and because they're "smart" weapons, they obviously don't bomb Yemeni schools, hospitals etc, which wouldn't be cricket.

 But should we be selling them arms if there's a clear smoking gun to domestic terrorist cells  :hmmm:



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 13, 2017, 10:43:49
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/13/saudi-arabia-boosting-extremism-in-europe-says-former-ambassador

Fancy going from dealing with the Saudis to dealing with Jed et al.... obviously not el al.

I'm not certain about this government ruling that we shouldn't know who funds domestic terrorism... clearly the Tories want to carry on selling arms to the Saudis, Qataris etc as their share portfolios would suffer, and because they're "smart" weapons, they obviously don't bomb Yemeni schools, hospitals etc, which wouldn't be cricket.

 But should we be selling them arms if there's a clear smoking gun to domestic terrorist cells  :hmmm:
Any government of any political stripe will tell you that irrespective of any differences on social and economic policy etc etc, any government's first priority must be to protect it's own citizens. Unless, of course, that might interfere with large corporates or significant party donors making a profit or upset wealthy allies and backers, in which case, of course, ordinary citizens can go swivel. Pass the caviar, Theresa


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, July 26, 2017, 15:12:44
 So the Government is being forced into a policy of halting the sale of all petrol and diesel motors by 2040. Not soon enough argue Greens, but does seems at least an effort to confront reality. What say you petrolheads?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, July 26, 2017, 15:37:43
Back to horse and cart, I reckon.

So how many years before 2040 will manufacturers stop making petrol/diesel cars and, more importantly, when will buyers stop purchasing them. Nobody will buy a car within 10 years at least if they fear it'll have to be scrapped

And what happens to all those oil producing countries whose economy is wholly dependent on it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, July 26, 2017, 15:46:54
Back to horse and cart, I reckon.

So how many years before 2040 will manufacturers stop making petrol/diesel cars and, more importantly, when will buyers stop purchasing them. Nobody will buy a car within 10 years at least if they fear it'll have to be scrapped

And what happens to all those oil producing countries whose economy is wholly dependent on it

Volvo have announced they're stopping petrol from 2019. BMW have announced today, I believe, that the Gypsy Lane plant is reprieved by the electric mini which despite Brexit, will be assembled in Cowley.

The OPEC countries have always known there will come a time.... which is why they have invested in other stuff.  Not sure Man City is a winner, and the Salafist doctrine we can probably do without.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, July 26, 2017, 15:50:47
Problem is electric cars aren't quite yet fit for purpose, just ok for short journeys and commuting.

Until they solve speed of 'fuelling' and/or range they are a bit shit for anything else.

I'm sure it'll be solved by 2040 though, a 500 mile car should be ample. Must be getting closer.

obviously going to have to do better than lithium mind being a limited resource...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Wednesday, July 26, 2017, 15:52:09
Nobody will bat an eyelid until 2030, and then when they run their government scrappage scheme in 2035 everyone will be lapping it up, like they did a few years back.

There has to be some vast improvements over the next 20 years on electical infrastructure and cars to have any hope of hitting their target..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, July 26, 2017, 15:52:21
Sturgeon! Will someone think of the Sturgeon!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, July 26, 2017, 15:54:23
Problem is electric cars aren't quite yet fit for purpose, just ok for short journeys and commuting.

Until they solve speed of 'fuelling' and/or range they are a bit shit for anything else.

I'm sure it'll be solved by 2040 though, a 500 mile car should be ample. Must be getting closer.

obviously going to have to do better than lithium mind being a limited resource...

 The reason for 23 year window, is so that technologies can be improved... oh I see you've said that  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, July 26, 2017, 15:56:18
have to say I like the look of the Tesla S 100D 0-60! not the price so much.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, July 26, 2017, 16:03:09
Nobody will bat an eyelid until 2030, and then when they run their government scrappage scheme in 2035 everyone will be lapping it up, like they did a few years back.

There has to be some vast improvements over the next 20 years on electical infrastructure and cars to have any hope of hitting their target..


This is of course an EU initiative, which the government is having to conform to, out of threat of legal action. Therefore I don't suppose the likes of Gove and Grayling are trailing this out of some green conversion, but rather they think they can avoid it after Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 26, 2017, 16:55:31
Nobody will buy a car within 10 years at least if they fear it'll have to be scrapped


I think its only banning 'new' cars at that date no scrappage scheme is proposed!

Ultimately we will all be driving flying machines powered by hydrogen cells or something by that date anyway.

Pointless policy rolled out by a government devoid of ideas who want to give the media a scrap to feed on so they stop asking difficult questions about current (see what I did there) matters that actually matter!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, July 27, 2017, 02:54:37
I think its only banning 'new' cars at that date no scrappage scheme is proposed!

Ultimately we will all be driving flying machines powered by hydrogen cells or something by that date anyway.

Pointless policy rolled out by a government devoid of ideas who want to give the media a scrap to feed on so they stop asking difficult questions about current (see what I did there) matters that actually matter!

I shouldn't get to vexed about this, most of you cunts will either be dead, in a home or on planet Janet. STFC will still be in Div 2 and the council and the then owners will still be squabbling over the heap that is SN1


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, July 27, 2017, 07:14:55
Ah, seems hybrid are currently not included.

That covers the range issue


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 28, 2017, 10:23:00
 So when May is out of the country, Hammond tells us the reality penny (not euro) has dropped and there's zero chance of negotiating Brexit without a "transitional arrangement" which could last years... so a sort of hokey cokey Brexit. In...out...in ...out, shake it all about.

Further a respected think tank report on the effect of a hard or soft Brexit on the economic prospects of the UK's urban areas, predicts that Swindon would be the 4th most adversely affected.

A soft Brexit would be more benign, however would promote us to the 2nd most adversely affected urban area in the UK, behind Aberdeen.

I guess, this is manifest in the difficulty SBC gets in trying to attract inward invesment for the town centre.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, August 27, 2017, 19:24:24
Keir Starmer, positioning himself as the next Tony Blair.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Sunday, August 27, 2017, 20:39:18
Keir Starmer, positioning himself as the next Tony Blair.

Prime Minister for a decade?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, August 27, 2017, 21:35:31
No, two faced lieing smarmy lawyer cunt.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, August 27, 2017, 22:19:26
Keir Starmer, positioning himself as the next Tony Blair.
Keir Starmer, he's just an ironed Gordon Ramsey.......


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, August 29, 2017, 09:22:33
Keir Starmer, he's just an ironed Gordon Ramsey.......

Whatever Starmer is like as a personality, he does seem to have manoeuvred the Labour Party into accepting the need for a soft Brexit.

This is important.

Clearly there are figures in the Tories who would lke to do this, but are stuck with the swivel eyed loons, who seek the cliff edge and the arms of Trump.

The Tory Conference is going to be unusually interesting....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, August 29, 2017, 09:24:46
Whatever Starmer is like as a personality, he does seem to have manoeuvred the Labour Party into accepting the need for a soft Brexit.


Has he, its all rather smoke and mirrors as the announcement over the weekend only relates to a transition period that may (or may not) even happen.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, August 29, 2017, 09:37:42
Has he, its all rather smoke and mirrors as the announcement over the weekend only relates to a transition period that may (or may not) even happen.....

The transition period is bound to happen.  At this stage as an opposition all that needs outlining is the general strategy...its the Tories who own Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, August 29, 2017, 20:03:24
As I recently posted in the Books, books, booksy thread.

Read Yannis Varoufakis 'And the weak must suffer what they must'

Whilst being a conservative council house kid on average wages who has always vehemently hated the EU on so many levels (fuck immigration, my late father is Anglo Indian) I have felt more than vindicated in voting to leave. Now, that is not to say there are some good things to come out of the EU, indeed there are good things that come out of Labour... however, on balance and thinking of a bigger picture, for the future, the € in its current guise is doomed, seriously read the book. Yannis is left wing! The EU has had many chances to reform its self but unfortunately it's like ground hog day. History shows learning from previous mistakes is no guarantee of making good. Indeed putting a square peg into around hole merely shows that it can be done, not how much fettling and tweaking was used to make it fit, badly, but a fit never the less.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dogs on Tuesday, August 29, 2017, 20:17:41
Totally agree with Varoufakis. He nailed it in back in May with this article - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/03/the-six-brexit-traps-that-will-defeat-theresa-may


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, August 30, 2017, 07:40:33
Whilst being a conservative council house kid

This statement belongs in the mildly confused, don't understand thread.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, August 30, 2017, 11:05:42
This statement belongs in the mildly confused, don't understand thread.
Then you'll just have to remain confused.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, August 30, 2017, 12:15:45
This statement belongs in the mildly confused, don't understand thread.

There's a house in Kingswood Avenue, Park North, which had a plaque, maybe it still has, but it's years since I was last there, commemorating being opened by Duncan Sandys who was Housing Minister in MacMillan's government.

It was some sky number of council houses that the Tories had built post war.  Sandys was one of those old skool Tories who believed in noblesse oblige, typically old Etonian and Magdalen, he was married to Winston's daughter.

Sandys was also responsible for such things as the Clean Air act, and greenbelt legislation to keep a check on developers... today he'd be seen as a left wing politician, very pro European having been shot in the failed Norway campaign argued for by his father-in-law. Think this is what LL means.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 30, 2017, 12:39:33
There's a house in Kingswood Avenue, Park North, which had a plaque, maybe it still has, but it's years since I was last there, commemorating being opened by Duncan Sandys who was Housing Minister in MacMillan's government.

It was some sky number of council houses that the Tories had built post war.  Sandys was one of those old skool Tories who believed in noblesse oblige, typically old Etonian and Magdalen, he was married to Winston's daughter.

Sandys was also responsible for such things as the Clean Air act, and greenbelt legislation to keep a check on developers... today he'd be seen as a left wing politician, very pro European having been shot in the failed Norway campaign argued for by his father-in-law. Think this is what LL means.

Sandys was also famous for being, allegedly, the headless man......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 11, 2017, 15:14:45
Gina strikes again.... Theresa May must really hate the woman for holding the government to account...

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...liaments-approval-after-gina-miller-challenge


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, September 11, 2017, 16:24:27
Your link got truncated

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/11/tory-dup-1bn-payment-needs-parliaments-approval-after-gina-miller-challenge


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 16:38:23
Gina strikes again.... Theresa May must really hate the woman for holding the government to account...

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...liaments-approval-after-gina-miller-challenge

It is rather odd that remainers like Miller didn't really give Parliamentary democracy a second thought for the last four decades when we outsourced our executive responsibilities to the Berlaymont leading to Parliament being told what to do, but now since Brexit Miller et al are getting rather excited about the whole matter.

It's rather like MPs complaining about Henry VIII clauses in the Great Repeal Bill - currently going through Parliament - the same Henry VIII clauses which have been used since EEC entry to ram through EEC/EU law without such a murmur from MPs. Curious...

That said, it's probably not Miller nor the DUP May has to worry about but Ruth Davidson - only last week Davidson threatened to pull the plug on May's administration...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 22:04:07
It is rather odd that remainers like Miller didn't really give Parliamentary democracy a second thought for the last four decades when we outsourced our executive responsibilities to the Berlaymont leading to Parliament being told what to do, but now since Brexit Miller et al are getting rather excited about the whole matter.

It's rather like MPs complaining about Henry VIII clauses in the Great Repeal Bill - currently going through Parliament - the same Henry VIII clauses which have been used since EEC entry to ram through EEC/EU law without such a murmur from MPs. Curious...

That said, it's probably not Miller nor the DUP May has to worry about but Ruth Davidson - only last week Davidson threatened to pull the plug on May's administration...

If Tory McTory Face wants the top job sometime in the future she'd be well advised to keep the poisoned dwarf in a cage until after the next GE. Miller is an agent provocateur/mouthpiece for some very powerful & influential organisation/s. Labour are, whether they realise it or not hammering nails into their own feet just before entering future arse kicking competitions. I take my hat off to Denis Skinner, he understands full well what is at stake for this country and his constituents. He made a call based on solid ground, not for any backsliding political future gain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Wednesday, September 13, 2017, 13:02:12
Dennis Skinner has always opposed the EEC/EU, and voted against every relevant treaty, since he became an MP in 1970. It's good to see an MP have principles even though he has been disgracefully labelled a scab by his own party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, September 13, 2017, 17:03:45
Not too clear from Legends and Ghana whether they are in favour of or against parliamentary democracy and the rule of law.  Perhaps it depends?

For all I know Gina Miller may have given Parliamentary Democracy a second thought at the age of 12 but I wouldn't criticise her (or call her a "poison dwarf" if that was implied?) if she hadn't.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, September 13, 2017, 17:36:01
Not too clear from Legends and Ghana whether they are in favour of or against parliamentary democracy and the rule of law.  Perhaps it depends?

For all I know Gina Miller may have given Parliamentary Democracy a second thought at the age of 12 but I wouldn't criticise her (or call her a "poison dwarf" if that was implied?) if she hadn't.
Sturgeon


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, September 13, 2017, 17:37:08
Dennis Skinner has always opposed the EEC/EU, and voted against every relevant treaty, since he became an MP in 1970. It's good to see an MP have principles even though he has been disgracefully labelled a scab by his own party.

That's bullying socialism for for you. So much for the Tories being the nasty party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, September 16, 2017, 12:09:02
See Boris Johnsons learned the big lesson from Trump - when you find a lie you like, just keep repeating it even when you get caught out, enough people will fall for it anyway


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, September 17, 2017, 13:43:47
See Boris Johnsons learned the big lesson from Trump - when you find a lie you like, just keep repeating it even when you get caught out, enough people will fall for it anyway
Yeah, like abolishing tuition fees for the young and gullible.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, September 17, 2017, 14:49:56
I don't get that legends-lounge??


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Sunday, September 17, 2017, 15:07:16
I think he's saying lies don't only come out of Tory mouths. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, September 17, 2017, 15:10:44
In which case he's not right is he, labour would have abolished tuition fees going forward.

just not paid off historic student debt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, September 17, 2017, 18:19:49
When is a lie a slight of hand or a down and out lie? Which is worse lying or making a false representation?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, September 17, 2017, 18:27:46
When is a lie a slight of hand or a down and out lie? Which is worse lying or making a false representation?

You probably mean a sleight of hand...unless you've got small hands.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, September 17, 2017, 22:27:17
I think he's saying lies don't only come out of Tory mouths. 
Well obviously. Doesn't alter the fact that Johnson is a fucking gobshite though, does it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, September 17, 2017, 22:29:15
Well obviously. Doesn't alter the fact that Johnson is a fucking gobshite though, does it?
You know him personally of course?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, September 17, 2017, 22:37:26
You know him personally of course?
No more than any of us know the very many public figures we choose to make judgement on - part and parcel of being a public figure. I judge him on his track record, which is that of a gobshite. Feel free to respond with a long list of people you think are also gobshites, it still won't make Boris any more suitable to hold high office. He's a nasty, lying opportunist shitbag and the fact that he holds one of what should be one of the highest offices of state is a damning indictment of the state of politics in this country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, September 18, 2017, 07:26:51
Sit down, shut up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 18, 2017, 07:50:55
You know him personally of course?

No but I suspect that Jerry Hayes (former Tory MP) probably does and he seems to concur with Pauld's description.....
https://twitter.com/jerryhayes1/status/909356662527492096

And the Head of UK Statistics yesterday wrote to the Foreign Secretary to tell him he's wilfully lying to the British public.

https://www.statisticsauthority.gov...scribe-uks-financial-contributions-to-the-eu/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, September 18, 2017, 16:38:07
No but I suspect that Jerry Hayes (former Tory MP) probably does and he seems to concur with Pauld's description.....
https://twitter.com/jerryhayes1/status/909356662527492096

And the Head of UK Statistics yesterday wrote to the Foreign Secretary to tell him he's wilfully lying to the British public.

https://www.statisticsauthority.gov...scribe-uks-financial-contributions-to-the-eu/
FFS, I'm impressed by your determination to validate your regular diatribe. Frankly I don't give a fuck about what pretty much most of you post on here, I only look in for entertainment and I'm rarely dissapointed. It reminds me of those 'same old faces' posting on the Swindon Advertiser every day, day in day out because they love the sound of their own voices or in this case tapping noise of the keyboard. Empty vessels make the most noise.

£350m a day for the NHS? Do me a favour, if £350m was the real sum available for the government, any colour will do, I'd rather they concentrate on the fucking colossal waste that goes on year in year out and always has by every government for decades. That money should go in part to training the population of all ages for existing & future employment short falls and encouraging families to have kids rather than import cheap labour. Fuck me there are enough minimum wage earning people here as it is without allowing anyone and everyone from east European and other poorer countries to come in and bring wages down further. My god, I'm sounding like socialist, ok, champagne one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 18, 2017, 16:43:24
FFS, I'm impressed by your determination to validate your regular diatribe. Frankly I don't give a fuck about what pretty much most of you post on here, I only look in for entertainment and I'm rarely dissapointed. It reminds me of those 'same old faces' posting on the Swindon Advertiser every day, day in day out because they love the sound of their own voices or in this case tapping noise of the keyboard. Empty vessels make the most noise.

£350m a day for the NHS? Do me a favour, if £350m was the real sum available for the government, any colour will do, I'd rather they concentrate on the fucking colossal waste that goes on year in year out and always has by every government for decades. That money should go in part to training the population of all ages for existing & future employment short falls and encouraging families to have kids rather than import cheap labour. Fuck me there are enough minimum wage earning people here as it is without allowing anyone and everyone from east European and other poorer countries to come in and bring wages down further. My god, I'm sounding like socialist, ok, champagne one.

Nope read it twice and have no idea of the point you are trying to make?

Apologies....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, September 18, 2017, 16:55:24
I utterly cannot square the current right wing/"conservative" trend of focusing on the financial impact to wages of immigration (same thing happening both sides of the pond it seems).  Surely the right to free enterprise ensures a constant trend to bring down costs and increase the bottom line, therefore all actions are fair game? Any action taken to prevent such capitalist ideals would surely be, as you claim Leg, socialism?

While I wouldn't agree with the principle, I can understand someone being anti-immigration based on some sort of racial or social reasoning (as I say, I'd disagree, but it makes a little more sense), but how can anyone who believes in the free market have any issue with immigration because it brings down the costs of businesses?  It's becoming an issue now because technology has advanced ensuring free trade has become something everyone can engage in, rather than just the first world countries.  In fact, the focus should probably be on the robots who will soon put the outsourcing industry or internal economic immigration at risk anyway.

Over here, you get quite a lot of discussion about the Govt. and anyone believing it should be involved in anything is most likely a communist.  However, they seem ok with the principle of the Govt getting itself all over immigration numbers with some odd premise of it improving the way of life for those lovely working class souls -  but surely they should be getting the Govt out of such administrative burdens and instead every man for themselves when it comes to making your financial way in the world.

Ideology confuses me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, September 18, 2017, 17:11:23
  In fact, the focus should probably be on the robots who will soon put the outsourcing industry or internal economic immigration at risk anyway.

I'm sure a robot like Atlas, could happily do the drudgery of say warehouse work and with driverless motors, replace white van man.

In fact could probably do a job at the centre of our defence.... more mobile anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVlhMGQgDkY


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, September 18, 2017, 18:37:31
I utterly cannot square the current right wing/"conservative" trend of focusing on the financial impact to wages of immigration (same thing happening both sides of the pond it seems).  Surely the right to free enterprise ensures a constant trend to bring down costs and increase the bottom line, therefore all actions are fair game? Any action taken to prevent such capitalist ideals would surely be, as you claim Leg, socialism?

While I wouldn't agree with the principle, I can understand someone being anti-immigration based on some sort of racial or social reasoning (as I say, I'd disagree, but it makes a little more sense), but how can anyone who believes in the free market have any issue with immigration because it brings down the costs of businesses?  It's becoming an issue now because technology has advanced ensuring free trade has become something everyone can engage in, rather than just the first world countries.  In fact, the focus should probably be on the robots who will soon put the outsourcing industry or internal economic immigration at risk anyway.

Over here, you get quite a lot of discussion about the Govt. and anyone believing it should be involved in anything is most likely a communist.  However, they seem ok with the principle of the Govt getting itself all over immigration numbers with some odd premise of it improving the way of life for those lovely working class souls -  but surely they should be getting the Govt out of such administrative burdens and instead every man for themselves when it comes to making your financial way in the world.

Ideology confuses me.

Excellent post.  The contradictions are striking.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 19:33:35
Owen Jones tries The Thick of It but goes full-on David Brent instead...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMFkZvKGdMU


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 09:53:06
Owen Jones tries The Thick of It but goes full-on David Brent instead...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMFkZvKGdMU

He really is a smug tool....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, September 22, 2017, 14:37:08
So when May is out of the country, Hammond tells us the reality penny (not euro) has dropped and there's zero chance of negotiating Brexit without a "transitional arrangement" which could last years... so a sort of hokey cokey Brexit. In...out...in ...out, shake it all about.

So now we have it, a transitional period, while we still pay into the EU, but have no say in any of the decision making.

The swivel eyed loons will be frothing at the mouth more than usual, as there's money to be made for some in tanking the economy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, September 22, 2017, 15:23:25
So now we have it, a transitional period

Inevitable, 15 months of achieving mainly fuck all in terms of an actual exit.

 It was always going to be choppy. Whilst I still think Brexit is a fucking stupid thing to do, I won't be proved right or wrong for decades (unless the EU implodes). Two years of bollocks is insignificant.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 22, 2017, 15:47:44
I won't be proved right or wrong for decades (unless the EU implodes).

Looking less likely now its worst performing economy has fucked off in a hufff, Christ even Italy is out performing us in terms of GDP now...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Saturday, September 23, 2017, 07:35:06
So now we have it, a transitional period, while we still pay into the EU, but have no say in any of the decision making.

The swivel eyed loons will be frothing at the mouth more than usual, as there's money to be made for some in tanking the economy.

More likely she is preparing the ground to walk away with no deal. This has been May's strategy from the beginning. She fail to address the sticking points of phase one, which the EU has (rightly) said need to be sorted before moving onto any kind of deal. So May is going to pitch her "flexibility" against the EU's "inflexibility" giving the the moral ground to walk away. If anything Brexit has been brought forward.

And you're right about money to be made, it's no coincidence the disaster capitalist specialists Legatum Institute are funding, via think tanks, a number of Tory MPs who happen to advocate...a "hard brexit".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, September 23, 2017, 10:38:48
Looking less likely now its worst performing economy has fucked off in a hufff, Christ even Italy is out performing us in terms of GDP now...

This is more pertinent. These are official figures. Government debt at the end of the first quarter 2017 by Member State. The highest ratios of government debt to GDP at the end of the first quarter of 2017 were recorded in Greece (176.2%), Italy (134.7%) and Portugal (130.5%), and the lowest in Estonia (9.2%), Luxembourg (23.0%) and Bulgaria (28.6%).

A governments ability to borrow and pay back money is an integral part of national economics. As is the ability to raise or lower interest rates. The UK can do this because thank god we did not join the €. Unfortunately all € members cannot do this. The ECB controls the vehicle in which they ride. It's taken 10 years for the € zone to start to show signs of recovery, all good yes? Well no, not really, for if the hawkish signs are to be believed and another global crash is around the corner I know where I'd rather be living and as nice as Italy is mate it ain't there when it does.

Italy may well have a slightly higher GDP today. Historically however, due to the political malaise in Italy where they change the government more often than you change your pants and are bogged down by continual coalitions of real chaos, coupled with eye watering amounts of debt (as you can see by the facts I have enlightened you with) they are, have been for decades and will be going forward an economic basket case. Still if you look over the fence into their garden and you are so envious of there fiscal position I suggest you go there and live.

Italy are seriously in danger of joining Greece under the jackboot of Herr Merkel. Still why let your personal prejudices get in the way of real facts?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Saturday, September 23, 2017, 13:36:08
I will presume the irony in that last sentence was intentional.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, September 23, 2017, 14:43:36
He really is a smug tool....
Which one?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, September 23, 2017, 15:48:44
Italy may well have a slightly higher GDP today. Historically however, due to the political malaise in Italy where they change the government more often than you change your pants and are bogged down by continual coalitions of real chaos, coupled with eye watering amounts of debt (as you can see by the facts I have enlightened you with) they are, have been for decades and will be going forward an economic basket case. Still if you look over the fence into their garden and you are so envious of there fiscal position I suggest you go there and live.
Yeah, fuck off back to Italy, horlock, you pasta-eating traitor. No room for the likes of you in our brave Brexit Britain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, September 23, 2017, 16:12:37
Yeah, fuck off back to Italy, horlock, you pasta-eating traitor. No room for the likes of you in our brave Brexit Britain.

He can join the other leftie luvvies like Colin Firth in bailing out for Italy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, September 23, 2017, 17:21:03
Herr Merkel and the transition period.  Is there something you're not telling us Legends?

(tbf, you did have to patiently explain to me that the "poison dwarf" was Nicola Sturgeon and not Gina Miller)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Saturday, September 23, 2017, 22:31:13
I love the way Legends starts out with data, and the intent to make a well reasoned case, and then gives up and gets all foamy mouthed.

I understand, I argue like that when I've had five pints too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, September 24, 2017, 08:02:32
The 'jackboot of Herr [sic] Merkel' followed by 'your personal prejudices' just 4 words later was a thing of beauty.

Who won the war, anyway?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Sunday, September 24, 2017, 08:29:24
The 'jackboot of Herr [sic] Merkel' followed by 'your personal prejudices' just 4 words later was a thing of beauty.

Who won the war, anyway?

Don't mention the war!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, September 24, 2017, 15:09:06
I will presume the irony in that last sentence was intentional.
No there is no irony. Italy have been warned (as have other nations) that their sovereign debt to GDP is higher than the terms of being in the euro allow! Greece's meltdown and subsequent 'punishing' medicine was a warning to Italy, Portugal, Ireland, Spain and even France! That fall foul of the rules and you'll pay the price. So who calls the tune in the EU and more specifically the Euro zone? It's Germany. Their trade surplus is propping up the EU, woe betide any nation who's fiscal transgression threatens that in any way. Don't take my word for it I've already mentioned a number of weeks ago the book I'm reading by Yannis Varoufakis the (left wing) ex fiancé minister of Greece who had the misfortune to try and negotiate Greece's fiscal problems.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, September 25, 2017, 09:23:59
It's Germany.

 Well Frau Merkel got re-elected, presumably you welcome the bloc of AfD MP's new to the Bundestag?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 25, 2017, 09:51:49
Yeah, fuck off back to Italy, horlock, you pasta-eating traitor. No room for the likes of you in our brave Brexit Britain.

 :bye:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 25, 2017, 09:57:25
Well Frau Merkel got re-elected, presumably you welcome the bloc of AfD MP's new to the Bundestag?

Probably the most pertinent fact which has been missed in the palaver of yesterday is that despite her policies allowing 1 million plus immigrants into the country Frau Merkel got re-elected....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, September 25, 2017, 17:10:06
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/858428/vanis-varoufakis-former-greek-finance-minister-german-election-2017-european-union

I think this bloke knows more about the EU, economics and the direction the EU is going than you or I. As stated, read his book "the weak must suffer what they must". You might learn something you didn't know. It's ok, he's a lefty so it can't be a load of right wing fascist lies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 26, 2017, 09:13:22
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/858428/vanis-varoufakis-former-greek-finance-minister-german-election-2017-european-union

I think this bloke knows more about the EU, economics and the direction the EU is going than you or I. As stated, read his book "the weak must suffer what they must". You might learn something you didn't know. It's ok, he's a lefty so it can't be a load of right wing fascist lies.


Sorry, the minute one quotes the Express (who don't respect the guy enough to even spell his name correctly in the URL, possibly as he is a lefty and their stock trade is right wing fascist lies) as a credible and unbiased source regarding anything to do with the EU one forfeits the argument.

Varoufakis was made to look a bit of a tit by the Germans which would rather explain his hostility to them and BTW if Varoufakis is so anti EU why did he back the remain campaign in the UK?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, September 26, 2017, 16:52:42
Probably the most pertinent fact which has been missed in the palaver of yesterday is that despite her policies allowing 1 million plus immigrants into the country Frau Merkel got re-elected....

Yes this seems to be a trend theses days.
May lost the election to Corbyn; er no not really.
Merkel lost the election to the AfD; er no not really


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, September 26, 2017, 18:51:45
Sorry, the minute one quotes the Express (who don't respect the guy enough to even spell his name correctly in the URL, possibly as he is a lefty and their stock trade is right wing fascist lies) as a credible and unbiased source regarding anything to do with the EU one forfeits the argument.

Varoufakis was made to look a bit of a tit by the Germans which would rather explain his hostility to them and BTW if Varoufakis is so anti EU why did he back the remain campaign in the UK?

I'll say it again. Read the book, rather than The Daily Mirror, The Gaurdian, Independant or Observer then you'll find out won't you? The fact that the DE picked up his comments is neither here nor there. The fact is he understands what's happening and why. I'm on the right and a brexiteer but I agree with a lot of what he says. Maybe I have an open mind and am prepared to explore the stuff that does not hit the sensationalist headlines in the mainstream papers. In a similar vein is the hysteria over Trump. I was asked what I thought about him a few times recently on holiday in the states. My reply was "I don't know the bloke. What's he saying about me? I read what's reported but as my old chap used to say. Believe half what you hear and all what you see. Besides, your countrymen voted for him, you deal with it we have enough going on on our side of the pond." The shit spouted out about him in this country is baffling, particularly on social media. Maybe it's true maybe it's not. What it is is not my problem, I can't change what another country voted so why get vexed about it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Tuesday, September 26, 2017, 19:03:49
I'll say it again. Read the book, rather than The Daily Mirror, The Gaurdian, Independant or Observer then you'll find out won't you? The fact that the DE picked up his comments is neither here nor there. The fact is he understands what's happening and why. I'm on the right and a brexiteer but I agree with a lot of what he says. Maybe I have an open mind and am prepared to explore the stuff that does not hit the sensationalist headlines in the mainstream papers. In a similar vein is the hysteria over Trump. I was asked what I thought about him a few times recently on holiday in the states. My reply was "I don't know the bloke. What's he saying about me? I read what's reported but as my old chap used to say. Believe half what you hear and all what you see. Besides, your countrymen voted for him, you deal with it we have enough going on on our side of the pond." The shit spouted out about him in this country is baffling, particularly on social media. Maybe it's true maybe it's not. What it is is not my problem, I can't change what another country voted so why get vexed about it?

Yes because Trump's actions have no impact on the Uk at all right?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, September 26, 2017, 19:05:01
Yes because Trump's actions have no impact on the Uk at all right?
Right!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, September 26, 2017, 19:37:13
I can confirm Trump is a nutcase.  How will he impact you?  Well the current Boeing issue will impact quite a few people working at Bombardier I would imagine, so while maybe not you as an individual, his trade policies will be something nations will have to be wary of.  Fortunately, what seems to have actually happened is nobody in either party knows how to handle the situation so nothing is getting done.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 27, 2017, 08:12:31
Right!

I suspect a large number of people in Northern Ireland don't agree with you.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, September 27, 2017, 09:37:24
He's a Tory, if if doesn't directly affect him and him alone he doesn't care


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, September 27, 2017, 09:57:04
Bringing two recent topics from this thread together, the US decision to apply tariffs to goods supplied by Bombadier does rather expose the fallacy perpetuated by some on the right of the Tory party - those advocating a 'no deal' Brexit - that the UK would compensate for new trade restrictions with the EU by making deals with countries outside the EU.

As this episode highlights, the countries with whom these deals would need to be made will not be falling over themselves to hand the UK a deal that works brilliantly for the UK.  They will have their own agendas, and will be acting in their own national interest.  Sovereignty will be regained following the EU exit, but at a massive price.  It will cost money, and jobs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 27, 2017, 10:19:34
Bringing two recent topics from this thread together, the US decision to apply tariffs to goods supplied by Bombadier does rather expose the fallacy perpetuated by some on the right of the Tory party - those advocating a 'no deal' Brexit - that the UK would compensate for new trade restrictions with the EU by making deals with countries outside the EU.

As this episode highlights, the countries with whom these deals would need to be made will not be falling over themselves to hand the UK a deal that works brilliantly for the UK.  They will have their own agendas, and will be acting in their own national interest.  Sovereignty will be regained following the EU exit, but at a massive price.  It will cost money, and jobs.

I would imagine that the US, unlike the average Tory have also noted that the UK is rather more dependent for employment on Boeing (c.16,500 UK employees in supply chain) than Bombardier...

He's a Tory, if if doesn't directly affect him and him alone he doesn't care

However the real interest stems from the Tories very precarious parliamentary position, in light of keeping Ms Foster happy are NI jobs (Bombardier) now more important than English (Boeing) ones.....

Be interesting to see what takes priority, keeping the right wing in power at whatever cost, or the good of the country.....  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, September 27, 2017, 10:24:17
That's a rhetorical question, no?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, September 27, 2017, 10:28:13
I suspect a large number of people in Northern Ireland don't agree with you.....

This sort of thing is why the Brexiteers want a return to the 1950's a golden age when Britain ruled the skies. Could invent and develop the jet engine and allow the US to clean up  due to free market skintness.

What names... AVRO, De Haviland, Hawker Siddeley, Gloster Aircraft Company, Boulton and Paul, Handley Page and our very own Vickers Armstrong and Supermarine.

Some of the visionaries in these companies could see how the world was heading and so joined with other Europeans to build the Airbus, in the 60's.

Whether the 10,000+ Airbus jobs in Bristol can survive Brexit is moot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 27, 2017, 10:50:31
That's a rhetorical question, no?

I couldn't possibly comment.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, September 28, 2017, 08:31:50
I suspect that Theresa’s big speech extolling the merits of free market economics might have carried a little more weight if she were not trying to pull us out of the biggest free-trading bloc on the planet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 28, 2017, 09:49:06
I suspect that Theresa’s big speech extolling the merits of free market economics might have carried a little more weight if she were not trying to pull us out of the biggest free-trading bloc on the planet.

Whilst also threatening a trade war with another of our major trading partners, getting ever more convinced that the Tories will not be happy until rationing is reintroduced.

Labour apparently bankrupted us but despite being in power during 2008 the UK credit rating remained as AAA throughout their watch, Tories been in power for nearly 10 years in period of recovery, expansion and fairly stable economic times for UK and the credit rating has been dropped twice so far....

Remind me who we are supposed to think is better at economic management?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wilf Shergold on Thursday, September 28, 2017, 10:29:36
The Gaurdian

Grauniad. Its Grauniad.

(Private Eye joke for those going 'huh?')


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, September 28, 2017, 17:08:04
Capitalism, it's the only way don't you know.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, September 28, 2017, 17:20:13
I'm in Spain at the moment. How come a refuse lorry collects 3 times a week, yet its once a fortnight in good old Blighty?

And Birmingham not at all!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 28, 2017, 17:32:25
I'm in Spain at the moment. How come a refuse lorry collects 3 times a week, yet its once a fortnight in good old Blighty?

And Birmingham not at all!

Obviously the Spanish are dirtier than us Brits. They used to collect in Brum, but it's still not a thing on the sub Continent..better to chuck it out onto the street medieval style, and let urchins sift through it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 4, 2017, 15:00:32
I suspect that Theresa’s big speech extolling the merits of free market economics might have carried a little more weight if she were not trying to pull us out of the biggest free-trading bloc on the planet.

Her Conference speech hasn't gone down too well....even something as inanimate as the set delivered an f off  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, October 4, 2017, 15:52:01
And Lee Nelson handed her a P45.

How come he can get into all these different high profile places and continue to get away with it? Especially in this security conscious time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 4, 2017, 16:31:12
And Lee Nelson handed her a P45.

How come he can get into all these different high profile places and continue to get away with it? Especially in this security conscious time.

To be fair her speech today has entirely unified the nation....





In thinking that Lee Nelson is an unfunny self promoting wanker!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Wednesday, October 4, 2017, 16:39:15
To be fair her speech today has entirely unified the nation....





In thinking that Lee Nelson is an unfunny self promoting wanker!
:nod:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, October 4, 2017, 16:57:43
Best thing Lee Nelson has ever done.

Thought it was the best episode of The Thick of it ever. I expected her to be picked up in a clown car.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 4, 2017, 17:05:39
Best thing Lee Nelson has ever done.

Thought it was the best episode of The Thick of it ever. I expected her to be picked up in a clown car.

Would have been better if he'd done it as Lord Buckethead, but more difficult to get through security.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, October 4, 2017, 19:39:19
To be fair her speech today has entirely unified the nation....





In thinking that Lee Nelson is an unfunny self promoting wanker!
Theresa May, on the other hand, is fucking hilarious. And, despite what she and her aides may have intended, in no way self-promoting. So it probably balances out, all told


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Saturday, October 7, 2017, 20:32:32
To be fair her speech today has entirely unified the nation....





In thinking that Lee Nelson is an unfunny self promoting wanker!

Actually I've met Simon Brodkin and he was very nice to my Mum, which puts him in my good books. He's a very intelligent man, but I must admit these "stunts" are a bit self indulgent.

It always makes me laugh when people panic about security though. I'm pretty relaxed about it. I mean he shouldn't have been able to do what he has done, but at the end of the day they're looking for terrorists, not BBC3 level comedians.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Friday, October 13, 2017, 18:13:23

In thinking that Lee Nelson is an unfunny self promoting wanker!

Is it possible to promote your self whilst even not calling yourself by your real name?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, October 13, 2017, 18:20:45
Is it possible to promote your self whilst even not calling yourself by your real name?

Not sure Mr Goat  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 20, 2017, 12:11:28
Nev is getting ever more frustrated on Twitter...

https://twitter.com/NevilleSouthall/status/921122266963939328


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 20, 2017, 14:05:11
Nev is getting ever more frustrated on Twitter...

https://twitter.com/NevilleSouthall/status/921122266963939328
He should stop beating round the bush and just come out and say what he thinks!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, October 30, 2017, 09:59:00
He should stop beating round the bush and just come out and say what he thinks!

In the current febrile PC climate over sexual harassment in the film/tv media, spilling over into Westminster, probably not the best analogy.

Back in 2015 after the GE, I pointed out that Tory PM's usually fall due to economic incompetence or sleaze, and that Cameron would do well to last long. He didn't.

Apparently there is a list of 36 Tory MP's who are a bit dodgy... headed by the fella, who sent his female into assistant into a Soho sex shop to buy toys, who he referred to as sugar tits.

Does this matter  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, October 30, 2017, 10:30:51
In the current febrile PC climate over sexual harassment in the film/tv media, spilling over into Westminster, probably not the best analogy.

Back in 2015 after the GE, I pointed out that Tory PM's usually fall due to economic incompetence or sleaze, and that Cameron would do well to last long. He didn't.

Apparently there is a list of 36 Tory MP's who are a bit dodgy... headed by the fella, who sent his female into assistant into a Soho sex shop to buy toys, who he referred to as sugar tits.

Does this matter  :hmmm:

The 'list' (even if it actually does exist - the guy touting it about has a very tenuous understanding of the truth) is unlikely to ever reach daylight as its held by the Guido Fawkes website who despite their desperate claims of independence are essentially the means by which CCHQ leak info to the press/public thus if its damaging to the Tories it won't get out and instead I suspect its being suggested that it exists to warn the Tory MP's to wind their necks (and other accouterments) in a bit..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, October 30, 2017, 10:33:33
The 'list' (even if it actually does exist - the guy touting it about has a very tenuous understanding of the truth) is unlikely to ever reach daylight as its held by the Guido Fawkes website who despite their desperate claims of independence are essentially the means by which CCHQ leak info to the press/public thus if its damaging to the Tories it won't get out and instead I suspect its being suggested that it exists to warn the Tory MP's to wind their necks (and other accouterments) in a bit..
Quite. It's basically just a massive "Watch it, Boris" flag. Because if there is any list of sexual predators in public life that he isn't in the top 3 of, it's not worth the paper it's written on


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Monday, October 30, 2017, 20:40:51
Harvey Weinstein and the current dramatics in Hollywood.
Seriously, we have a bunch of ‘women’ who prostituted themselves on the chance it would enhance their career and fame. Too many sensitive left wing beta males giving these cretinous cunts attention.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Monday, October 30, 2017, 22:22:28
Harvey Weinstein and the current dramatics in Hollywood.
Seriously, we have a bunch of ‘women’ who prostituted themselves on the chance it would enhance their career and fame. Too many sensitive left wing beta males giving these cretinous cunts attention.

Left wing beta male should have been by username really.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Monday, October 30, 2017, 22:29:49
Harvey Weinstein and the current dramatics in Hollywood.
Seriously, we have a bunch of ‘women’ who prostituted themselves on the chance it would enhance their career and fame. Too many sensitive left wing beta males giving these cretinous cunts attention.

Are you suggesting these women deserved to be assaulted?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Monday, October 30, 2017, 22:51:44
It appears c/o Hobodan, that they're not women, but 'women'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 06:21:20
Fuckin hell.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 09:18:02
Where do you even start? Jesus Christ.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 09:20:18
Harvey Weinstein and the current dramatics in Hollywood.
Seriously, we have a bunch of ‘women’ who prostituted themselves on the chance it would enhance their career and fame. Too many sensitive left wing beta males giving these cretinous cunts attention.

Setting aside the general bollocks of this post (you do realise you don't have to provide the necessary bollocks proportion single handedly on the forum?), what has it got to do with politics, unless you are suggesting its all part of some manner of left wing conspiracy...



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 09:28:04
Harvey Weinstein and the current dramatics in Hollywood.
Seriously, we have a bunch of ‘women’ who prostituted themselves on the chance it would enhance their career and fame. Too many sensitive left wing beta males giving these cretinous cunts attention.

Talk Talk is that you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 12:29:10
 The Government have refused to publish the outcome of an analysis of how Brexit will impinge on 58 areas of the economy.

 Here's why. Read it in a Sir Humphrey Appleby voice....

“There is a strong public interest in policy-making associated with our exit from the EU being of the highest quality and conducted in a safe space to allow for design and deliberation to be done in private.”

“In this case, releasing the commissioning document for this exercise, which is still a live policy issue, may undermine the effective formulation or development of policies which are key to our negotiating strategy.

“Disclosure would similarly set a precedent that would inhibit free and frank discussion in the future. Without the necessary safe space for unreserved instruction in commissioning briefs, the quality of the eventual advice from the respective exercise would be diminished and would in turn lead to poorer decision making.”


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 13:01:41
Reg, aside for a penchant for the exotic Eastern European ladies, should you not be staunchly against the EU as a construct?  Labour/Unions only supported it because it enabled social policy to be enacted over the Conservative party wishes as the Governing party for so long, pre-Blair.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 13:16:48
The Government have refused to publish the outcome of an analysis of how Brexit will impinge on 58 areas of the economy.

 Here's why. Read it in a Sir Humphrey Appleby voice....

“There is a strong public interest in policy-making associated with our exit from the EU being of the highest quality and conducted in a safe space to allow for design and deliberation to be done in private.”

“In this case, releasing the commissioning document for this exercise, which is still a live policy issue, may undermine the effective formulation or development of policies which are key to our negotiating strategy.

“Disclosure would similarly set a precedent that would inhibit free and frank discussion in the future. Without the necessary safe space for unreserved instruction in commissioning briefs, the quality of the eventual advice from the respective exercise would be diminished and would in turn lead to poorer decision making.”

Couple of things...

We have a negotiating strategy? Fucking hell they have kept that quiet;

They seem to think that the EU won't have undertaken exactly the same process as part of their strategy (as they seem to have both a plan and be organised) so not sure what difference it will make.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 13:22:24
We have a negotiating strategy?

Brexit means brexit is clear enough surely. We will Brexit with a deal or without one, and may or may not try to put special trade provision in for certain key industry sectors. The time frame for Brexit after Brexit deadline day is between 0 days and roughly when the Devil skates to work, which is the transition period. Our divorce bill be roughly £1 more per week for several years than we currently contribute, because Theresa May and David 'mince' Davis played hardball.

Its going well. Well its going.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 14:06:47
I haven't yet heard anyone inside or outside the government outline an effective negotiating strategy for Britain for the simple reason that there isn't  one.

Entering into a negotiation with no rights to enforce an agreement and with a fixed deadline at which point you fall off a cliff and the other party is mildly inconvenienced doesn't feature in any books on smart initial negotiating positions.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 14:10:13
Could not give 2 fucks about brexit either way.

Hope it helps


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 14:54:37
Reg, aside for a penchant for the exotic Eastern European ladies, should you not be staunchly against the EU as a construct?  Labour/Unions only supported it because it enabled social policy to be enacted over the Conservative party wishes as the Governing party for so long, pre-Blair.

I thought long and hard about my vote, and swayed between the 2.... initially I took what might be regarded as the Bennite position, but was swayed in the end to vote remain by considering the future generations both our own and those of our European neighbours.

It is now about the form that Brexit takes and it's impact on the structure of our society...



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 17:17:34
As soon as we reach March 2019, the adage that 'democracy did not end on June 23rd 2016' will resonate more than it does now.  If the negotiations fail to produce a deal, and living standards fall as a result - I am sure that the tide will turn quickly and a consensus will build towards taking whatever steps necessary to undo the damage caused.  You can't eat sovereignty for breakfast.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 17:31:24
The list is now circulating in a partially redacted form.... https://tompride.wordpress.com/2017/10/31/the-unredacted-spreadsheet-of-40-tory-mps-accused-of-inappropriate-sexual-behaviour/#jp-carousel-42337


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 17:37:08
The list is now circulating in a partially redacted form.... https://tompride.wordpress.com/2017/10/31/the-unredacted-spreadsheet-of-40-tory-mps-accused-of-inappropriate-sexual-behaviour/#jp-carousel-42337

Justin Tomlinson gets a mention.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 17:50:10
Justin Tomlinson gets a mention.

There are now non redacted copies doing the rounds and the matter regarding Tomlinson is already in the public domain to the extent of being noted on his Wiki entry.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 18:19:12
There are now non redacted copies doing the rounds and the matter regarding Tomlinson is already in the public domain to the extent of being noted on his Wiki entry.

I suspect Tomlinson gets in due to backing up his Wonga blub, with blurring the lines with his personal assistant.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 18:19:51
There are now non redacted copies doing the rounds and the matter regarding Tomlinson is already in the public domain to the extent of being noted on his Wiki entry.

So it is. Off with his head anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 08:40:00
Looking up Damian Green online I came across Rachel@Rachel_Swindon who is a prolific and rather amusing harrier of Tory MPs.

Anyone know her?  At the risk of stereotyping I'm guessing she isn't an ST follower.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 09:05:14
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/extras/entertainment/harvey-weinstein-ashley-judd-sexual-advances-oscar-deal-avoid-latest-a8021986.html%3famp

So this Hollywood snowflake Ashley Judd consented to sex with Harvey to avoid rape (and gain an Oscar). That’s equivalent to stabbing your self to prevent being murdered. Honestly, how anyone can sympathise with these professional victims is hilarious & only diminishes real sexual assault.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 09:15:30
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/extras/entertainment/harvey-weinstein-ashley-judd-sexual-advances-oscar-deal-avoid-latest-a8021986.html%3famp

So this Hollywood snowflake Ashley Judd consented to sex with Harvey to avoid rape (and gain an Oscar). That’s equivalent to stabbing your self to prevent being murdered. Honestly, how anyone can sympathise with these professional victims is hilarious & only diminishes real sexual assault.

Are you on a wind up? You know she said that and fucked off and didn't sleep with him yeah?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 09:21:03
(https://s1.postimg.org/4n3r30ay9n/EA1000_C9-7_C1_B-42_E9-_A6_D9-07913699961_F.gif)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 09:22:06
What an absolute cretin.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 09:24:49
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/extras/entertainment/harvey-weinstein-ashley-judd-sexual-advances-oscar-deal-avoid-latest-a8021986.html%3famp

So this Hollywood snowflake Ashley Judd consented to sex with Harvey to avoid rape (and gain an Oscar). That’s equivalent to stabbing your self to prevent being murdered. Honestly, how anyone can sympathise with these professional victims is hilarious & only diminishes real sexual assault.


Have you actually read the story just out of interest or as I suspect just blindly picked it up off one of those social media bots that spread stories based on headlines knowing that people won't bother reading them but will spread them to try and justify their strange world view.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 09:54:27
Falling over yourselves to pity the Hollywood elite 😂. Their objective has worked on you. These are cretinous people only interested in themselves. No coincidence that Hollywood is the lefty capitol of the US, and we have more anti male hysteria.
I’m not saying Harvey probably didn’t try his luck and push boundaries, but it’s clear these women were willing to sleep with a powerful man in order to advance their own profiles.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 10:15:16
He says, typing away in his "Jim Fixed it For Me" T-shirt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 10:44:00
Falling over yourselves to pity the Hollywood elite 😂. Their objective has worked on you. These are cretinous people only interested in themselves. No coincidence that Hollywood is the lefty capitol of the US, and we have more anti male hysteria.
I’m not saying Harvey probably didn’t try his luck and push boundaries, but it’s clear these women were willing to sleep with a powerful man in order to advance their own profiles.

I cannot decide whether you are a failed actor whose offers of casting couch services was rebutted, or just a very bitter right wing misogynist? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 10:54:36
I cannot decide whether you are a failed actor whose offers of casting couch services was rebutted, or just a very bitter right wing misogynist? 
If you remember, a while back he was very busy telling us all Le Pen would win the French election as part of the historic tide to secure Europe or some such nonsense. He seems to pop on here periodically to repost whatever's currently doing the rounds on the alt-right/fascist/InfoWars/Breitbart scene. Clearly, victim blaming is the latest in thing with the alt-right kiddies these days.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 11:14:27
If you remember, a while back he was very busy telling us all Le Pen would win the French election as part of the historic tide to secure Europe or some such nonsense. He seems to pop on here periodically to repost whatever's currently doing the rounds on the alt-right/fascist/InfoWars/Breitbart scene. Clearly, victim blaming is the latest in thing with the alt-right kiddies these days.

Do we have our own Russian Bot then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 12:07:47
...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 12:15:54
If you remember, a while back he was very busy telling us all Le Pen would win the French election as part of the historic tide to secure Europe or some such nonsense. He seems to pop on here periodically to repost whatever's currently doing the rounds on the alt-right/fascist/InfoWars/Breitbart scene. Clearly, victim blaming is the latest in thing with the alt-right kiddies these days.

Let’s face it,  Lepen did incredibly well to come second in a liberal cess pit like France. Now you are going to claim 25% of French people are racist right? 😂 
There is an increase in right wing activity because of the prevalence of left wing activists and their influence on society. People are rejecting modern liberalism, and the consequences there of. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 12:53:50
How is this complete prick only on -50?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 13:11:35
Oh boo hoo. Does it hurt your feelings when someone has a different opinion? 😂 you are part of the problem of generation snowflake. Typical beta


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 13:20:09
Cmon. Admit it, how many of you liberals sub to Buzzfeed?
Would you believe it! there is a link between left wing liberal males and low testosterone 😂 who’d a thought? 🤔

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqlfHbH55W0


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 13:21:47
Now that post is an irony in of itself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 13:21:53
Do you have a quota of clichéd buzzwords you need to write per post?

I'm looking forward to the Antifa are training with ISIS rhetoric. Fucking lefties.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 13:30:43
Antifa aren't lefties, they are Alt Left (even though they are not even remotely on the left, being pretty much Anarchist by nature).

Why do people now feel the need to label everything in American political terms, and then only by extremes.  I am pretty sure I can find people who believe in the NHS as a bastion of virtue who also feel that immigration is bad for example, or people who think we should be taxed far less but also believe in a woman's right to an abortion.

If Ho thinks using a label like "liberal" is useful, which is now being used as a way of showing someone to be extreme left, then by definition he must be opposite, Fascist.  I doubt he would label himself as such, but you surely must only be one or the other.  The reality is clearly that politcal and moral opinions are far more nuanced.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 13:35:42
T
Antifa aren't lefties, they are Alt Left (even though they are not even remotely on the left, being pretty much Anarchist by nature).

Yes - I'm aware. My attempt was an (admittedly poor) attempt at irony.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 13:38:53
Morisette stylee


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 13:45:34
How is this complete prick only on -50?
Oh i meant to ask, whats all that about then


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 13:45:59
Hobodan's view on the TEF: 25% Football, 80% Cucks


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 13:52:04
Morisette stylee

It wasn't that bad!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 14:11:41
Morisette stylee

I think the tone of the comments is more Morrissey style to be honest.

And I still don't understand why this belongs in the politics thread?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 14:43:46
What's a beta?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 14:49:01
What's a beta?

Think it's a rung down from alpha in the masculinity stakes. You know those wildlife documentaries where the bull elephant seal or some such has to fend off pretenders to his harem of supine females. Think Hobo sees himself as the TEF equivalent of the  top elephant seal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 14:56:00
What's a beta?

No idea, but didn't Bill Werbeniuk used to take medication to block them?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 15:03:13
Oh.

I've never felt the need to assert my virility to a group of strangers on internet message boards, personally.  But each to their own.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 16:00:40
I think the tone of the comments is more Morrissey style to be honest.

And I still don't understand why this belongs in the politics thread?

It's where politics in the USA has moved towards (where what was right and left wing has got all muddled up but there are only two very distinct opinions allowed, either Liberal or Alt Right).  It is now creeping into European politics as well it seems.

Have a gander at Breitbart's comments section.

Somehow, even Odious pricks in Hollywood are making some sort of political statement by forcing themselves on the ladies, or young boys I guess.  It's the new thing for the White Christian Working/Middle Class who have had enough of being gang raped in Sweden and seeing Mexican's take their jobs (even though machines would have done so if they were cheaper to build).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 16:08:20
I can't decide if Hobodan is a Tommy Robinson, or more of an Alf Garnett.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 1, 2017, 16:19:30
It's also gone a bit wrong with regards to capitalism, which it now appears everyone agrees with, but somehow the right wing has moved towards it only being good when it is within the confines of your own country, but free trade is now bad - competition from abroad is not good, but competition from inside is good.  Free markets work when they are not free, but they are now broken when they are truly free.  It's all very peculiar, but it essentially ends in an argument about whether or not Transgender people want to molest young girls in public bathrooms.  That is odd enough - everyone knows to avoid public bathrooms.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Thursday, November 2, 2017, 19:00:02
Talk Talk is that you?

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

What a deeply unpleasant point of view. Really not worth engaging with though if "RAH LIBERALS YOU HAVE TINY DICKS" is the extent of the discourse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 2, 2017, 19:30:41
FALSE NEWS!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Thursday, November 2, 2017, 19:33:07
It certainly is, my dick is massive.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, November 2, 2017, 22:24:22
I’m a liberal and my dick is tiny so take that


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, November 3, 2017, 13:34:45

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41854482

Disgraceful attempt at denying someone their right to freedom of speech.  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 12:30:51
Even by its usual standards, our politics appears to have gone entirely batshit mental.

The foreign secretary has accidentally gotten a British national jailed abroad

The international development secretary had a series of secret meetings with Israeli ministers without telling anyone else in the government

And neither can sack/will resign because the government is already having to deal with the stunning fact that a bunch of creepy old men with near absolute power can't keep their hands/comments where they're wanted

All of this whilst they try and negotiate the most complex constitutional change in the UK's history without a majority in parliament

Oh, and absolutely nobody rich appears to have paid any tax, ever


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 12:37:19
Its great isn't it, you have to wonder why so many wealthy Tories want to see Brexit through ASAP, I am sure the fact that the EU is trying to crack down on tax avoidance is entirely coincidental.

This is shamelessly nicked from the interweb....

This is just summary for todays cancelled(?) cabinet meeting:-

AWKWARD: Theresa May will chair a meeting of her Cabinet this morning. It may not be the happiest of gatherings. Sitting around the table will be:

— Her first secretary of state, Damian Green, who is under investigation by the Cabinet Office over allegations, which he denies, that he made unwanted advances towards a young Tory activist and had “extreme” pornography on an office computer.

— Her foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, whose latest verbal blunder could see a British citizen spend a further five years in jail in Iran. (PS and the disgraced minister Fox said this morning "it was just a slip of the tongue !")

— Her chancellor, Philip Hammond, who she planned to sack five months ago and with whom she reportedly can hardly bear to share a room.

— Her new defense secretary, Gavin Williamson, whose promotion from chief whip last week following the resignation of her disgraced ally Michael Fallon sparked more fury among her parliamentary party than any Cabinet appointment in recent memory.

— Her Commons leader, Andrea Leadsom, who is accused in today’s Mail and Telegraph of failing to act on a rape claim by a Tory aide, and by some of her own colleagues of ending Fallon’s career in order to save her own. She too denies all the charges.

— Her international development secretary, Priti Patel, who went behind her back to hold secret talks with a string of senior Israeli politicians and a Tory donor — and then tried to mislead the press when she got found out.

— Her party chairman, Patrick McLoughlin, whom most of her party want fired for his handling of both the disastrous general election and last month’s conference security fiasco.

This is from:
https://www.politico.eu/newsletter/...k-cabinet-in-crisis-dd-in-rome-talking-trade/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 12:49:35
Johnson's latest fuck up in particular, and the "defence" of it by the equally ludicrous disgraced Fox, demonstrates why he should never have been anywhere near the Foreign Office even as a junior minister, much less Foreign Secretary.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 16:36:39
He dropped Priti Patel in it too bu confirming she was in Israel on business.

Would be a real shame for her if somebody were to make an FOI request for her expenses for that period.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 16:57:21
The international development secretary had a series of secret meetings with Israeli ministers without telling anyone else in the government

100th anniversary of the Balfour Declaration  :hmmm:

November 1917... 100th anniversary of the Bolshevik Revolution

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x72w_69yS1A

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4k4tWt41ujM/hqdefault.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 17:08:53
He dropped Priti Patel in it too bu confirming she was in Israel on business.

Would be a real shame for her if somebody were to make an FOI request for her expenses for that period.

Did he, I missed that bit....

Glorious.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 18:09:39
The Priti Patel story doesn't add up.  To go on holiday and to arrange one or two meetings while there - I could understand that, even though it would have broken the ministerial code just the same.

But to arrange 12 meetings!?  What kind of 'holiday' was this?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 19:01:06
Priti Patel's holiday transcript just in:

“If you kids don’t shut up, I’ll turn this car around and there’ll be no Benjamin Netanyahu for anyone.”


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 19:15:25
Quote from: Ardiles
But to arrange 12 meetings!?  What kind of 'holiday' was this?

are you suggesting a politician might be lying? my view of the world has been shattered.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 19:22:22
Johnson's latest fuck up in particular, and the "defence" of it by the equally ludicrous disgraced Fox, demonstrates why he should never have been anywhere near the Foreign Office even as a junior minister, much less Foreign Secretary.
He's a cunt of the highest order. I saw on the BBC news site earlier the headline "Boris Johnson sorry if Zaghari-Ratcliffe remarks 'caused anxiety'". It turns out he wasnt apologising though, or admitting he made a mistake. He told MPs he was "sorry if his words were so taken out of context as "to cause any kind of anxiety". Wanker.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 19:25:38
Priti Patel's holiday transcript just in:

“If you kids don’t shut up, I’ll turn this car around and there’ll be no Benjamin Netanyahu for anyone.”

 :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 19:52:20
Anyone would think the labour party are squeaky clean ffs

Not one of their front bench has ever had a job in the private sector- they're stinking rich and sent their kids to private school (Corbyn and Abbott)

Hypocrites of the highest order


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 19:58:26
So what was the innocent lady doing in Iranl


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 20:43:43
Anyone would think the labour party are squeaky clean ffs

Not one of their front bench has ever had a job in the private sector

This is not true at all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 21:20:35
Anyone would think the labour party are squeaky clean ffs

Not one of their front bench has ever had a job in the private sector- they're stinking rich and sent their kids to private school (Corbyn and Abbott)

Hypocrites of the highest order

Here, here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 22:22:57
Anyone would think the labour party are squeaky clean ffs

Not one of their front bench has ever had a job in the private sector- they're stinking rich and sent their kids to private school (Corbyn and Abbott)

Hypocrites of the highest order
None of which makes Boris Johson in any way suitable to hold any office of any kind, much less one of the top 3 jobs. Completely irrelevant whataboutery .


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 09:07:18
Anyone would think the labour party are squeaky clean ffs

Not one of their front bench has ever had a job in the private sector- they're stinking rich and sent their kids to private school (Corbyn and Abbott)

Hypocrites of the highest order

Whats that coming over the hill is it a dead cat, is it a dead cat.....

Its coming to some manner of desperation when the Tories ardent supporters only response is that they are shit but the other side might be also.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: brocklesby red on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 09:37:34
I think Carl Seargeant taking his own life shows Labour aren't claiming to be squeaky clean.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 10:10:59
So lets just summarise the last couple of days, from a quick review of the BBC Website...

First Secretary of State appears before the Cabinet Office regarding stories of porn on his office computer... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41893746 oh plus allegations of inappropriate advances towards a female Conservative activist.

Foreign Secretary talks some bollocks in Parliament that leads to a British Citizen potentially spending another 5 years inside in Iran, but apparently its only a gaffe. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41902883 I cannot remember who said it, but a gaffe is saying fuck in front of your kids, not condemning someone who you are supposed to be protecting to prison.

DexEU Minister been telling us via the commons for months about these detailed impact studies the government have prepared showing the impacts of Brexit, yet when pressed now suggests that they do not actually exist. Leading to action from the Speaker and suggestions that the government are in contempt of Parliament - just remember folks it was all apparently about sovereignty?

Priti Patel is now flying back from Africa to explain to the PM why she has been caught lying again about her activities in Israel, as it transpires that she had further meetings in September that she didn't tell the PM about last week, it also appears that she wanted to channel aid money to the Israeli Army in relation to works in the West Bank, the occupation of which is contrary to a UN resolution.

If this was an African republic we would be laughing at it.....



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 11:15:22
None of which makes Boris Johson in any way suitable to hold any office of any kind, much less one of the top 3 jobs. Completely irrelevant whataboutery .

And I agree with you, but it's the whole "holier than thou" rhetoric from Labour and their supporters that grates with me, when in reality they're all pretty much as bad as one another.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 11:34:23
And I agree with you, but it's the whole "holier than thou" rhetoric from Labour and their supporters that grates with me, when in reality they're all pretty much as bad as one another.
On the "knee deep in sleaze" yes they are. But the sheer political bankruptcy of May's lame duck government since her vanity election blew up in her face is causing the nation and it's citizens real harm. She's been forced to cobble together a coalition of staggering incompetents and buffoons who are holding her hostage and appear to be largely unsackable unless they go the full Priti Patel. In any normal government the likes of Johnson, Davis, Fox and Leadsom wouldn't get a look in. They're making Amber Rudd look like a serious leadership contender FFS. If May had an ounce of integrity she'd throw in the towel and spare the country this coalition of fuckwits. But she can't afford to for the sake of her own career (which is fucked anyway) so at a time when the nation needs proper leadership more than perhaps at any time in the last 50 years, she'd rather allow us all to be held hostage by the coalition of incompetent fuckwits she calls a cabinet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 12:04:56
On the "knee deep in sleaze" yes they are. But the sheer political bankruptcy of May's lame duck government since her vanity election blew up in her face is causing the nation and it's citizens real harm. She's been forced to cobble together a coalition of staggering incompetents and buffoons who are holding her hostage and appear to be largely unsackable unless they go the full Priti Patel. In any normal government the likes of Johnson, Davis, Fox and Leadsom wouldn't get a look in. They're making Amber Rudd look like a serious leadership contender FFS. If May had an ounce of integrity she'd throw in the towel and spare the country this coalition of fuckwits. But she can't afford to for the sake of her own career (which is fucked anyway) so at a time when the nation needs proper leadership more than perhaps at any time in the last 50 years, she'd rather allow us all to be held hostage by the coalition of incompetent fuckwits she calls a cabinet.

And do you really believe that Labour would have all the magic answers?
Do you think that a return to the dark days of the 70's would be so much better than what we have now, because that's where we are headed if Corbyn and his cronies gain power.
I'm old enough to remember those times and I honestly thought that I'd never see them again in my lifetime, but there is a real danger that's what we'll end up with.

I am a traditional Tory voter and even I would say that I'm not happy with the current incumbents and agree that we need strong leadership but I don't see that coming from anywhere else. All I see is someone else desperate for power and promising the Earth to get it....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 12:14:16
So what was the innocent lady doing in Iranl

She has dual nationality you fucking dickhead


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 12:35:03
How would Corbyn take us back to the 1970's ?
I read this alot. On what basis is that conclusion reached?
I prefer to deal the here and now. Look at the total shambles we are in. It's beyond a joke. I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Theresa May. That's saying something considering she's a vile Tory.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 12:37:31
Do you think that a return to the dark days of the 70's would be so much better than what we have now, because that's where we are headed if Corbyn and his cronies gain power.

A leading academic a few years back reckoned that 1976 was a peak year for Britain based on his Measure of Domestic Progress (MDP)

MDP is based on criteria such as crime, inequality gap, energy consumption and pollution, and public service investment.

I had a right good time, so wouldn't disagree, shame you didn't.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/3337143/Remember-1976-Britains-best-ever-year.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 12:41:51
She has dual nationality you fucking dickhead

And was taking her kid to meet its grandparents.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 12:46:29
And do you really believe that Labour would have all the magic answers?
Nope, never said that. Again, this is just whataboutery - it's a cheap diversion that doesn't change the fact that we are being governed by incompetents and liars at a time when (thanks to those same incompetents and liars) we are on the precipice of one of the biggest upheavals in the country's post war history and they are making a massive fucking mess of it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 12:50:40
And do you really believe that Labour would have all the magic answers?

I don't think he said they did have in the post you are replying to, for many I think its the simple fact that can things actually be any shitter, and the traditional Tory line that 'We might be shit, but Labour are socialists and thus by default it will be shitter' is wearing fucking thin now.

I'm old enough to remember those times and I honestly thought that I'd never see them again in my lifetime, but there is a real danger that's what we'll end up with.

I am reading a biography of Oswald Mosley at the moment and its incredible to read the Tory campaigning against the Labour government of the 1920's (of which Mosley formed a part), it is virtually verbatim exactly what the Tories are saying now, so perhaps politics never changes.


I am a traditional Tory voter and even I would say that I'm not happy with the current incumbents and agree that we need strong leadership but I don't see that coming from anywhere else. All I see is someone else desperate for power and promising the Earth to get it....

Do you really think there is no one out there (of any political colour) who could be better than the existing, that is a frankly horrifying conclusion on British politics. When you say about a person being desperate for power and fuck the consequences do you mean Corbyn or Johnson?

Whatever the outcomes I would like a government in place that is not fucking me over due to its internal battles, its ideology and simultaneously and deliberately fucking over the poor and unfortunate, I will say again if this was happening in an African dictatorship we would be up in arms about it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 12:50:52
A leading academic a few years back reckoned that 1976 was a peak year for Britain based on his Measure of Domestic Progress (MDP)

MDP is based on criteria such as crime, inequality gap, energy consumption and pollution, and public service investment.

I had a right good time, so wouldn't disagree, shame you didn't.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/3337143/Remember-1976-Britains-best-ever-year.html
I think you might be slightly selective in the year that you chose, anyone remember the three day week??


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 12:52:24
How would Corbyn take us back to the 1970's ?
It's what the Daily Mail tells us so it must be true....the Tories, on the other hand, want to take us back the 1870s when the working classes knew their place.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 12:57:10
I think you might be slightly selective in the year that you chose, anyone remember the three day week??

No as I wasn't born but from my history classes at school I recall it was under a Tory government and much of the background was down to rising inflation and stagnant wage levels....

All sounds very familiar to the utopia we are presently living in, by the date that Reg mentions a Labour government had come into power, as you are so keen to compare politics now to that nearly 50 years ago perhaps the same could happen again?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 13:00:40
Well the 3-day week may have been down to the Tories, but don't forget the drought in 1976 which was down to the socialists nationalising all the rain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 13:46:15
Latest updates from the Guardian are dragging Theresa May personally in to the Priti Patel story.  Trying to avoid hyperbole here, but events are starting to look as if they have potential to bring down the government.  How many lives does this cat have, again?

Guardian link (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/nov/08/priti-patel-secret-israel-meetings-politics-live)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 15:47:27
No as I wasn't born but from my history classes at school I recall it was under a Tory government and much of the background was down to rising inflation and stagnant wage levels....

All sounds very familiar to the utopia we are presently living in, by the date that Reg mentions a Labour government had come into power, as you are so keen to compare politics now to that nearly 50 years ago perhaps the same could happen again?

Yep. Heath's Tory government brought us the 3 day week.  Personally I quite enjoyed it, as with no electricity there wasn't much to do at night.... beyond inviting a bird round, to hold a conversation. Of course, the candle light wasn't a cliche, but a necessity, throw in a couple of bottles of vino and the job was a good un.

I quite liked Heath as far as Tories go, and its a shame that his name has recently been dragged through the mud, but it wouldn't surprise if there had been an establishment conspiracy to cover up his "interests".

He did seem motivated by his experiences of fighting in the war, to try and create a more united Europe, for the benefit of all classes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 16:21:58
Latest updates from the Guardian are dragging Theresa May personally in to the Priti Patel story.  Trying to avoid hyperbole here, but events are starting to look as if they have potential to bring down the government.  How many lives does this cat have, again?

Guardian link (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/nov/08/priti-patel-secret-israel-meetings-politics-live)

The coverage of this is hilariously sensational


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 16:36:43
And do you really believe that Labour would have all the magic answers?
Do you think that a return to the dark days of the 70's would be so much better than what we have now, because that's where we are headed if Corbyn and his cronies gain power.
I'm old enough to remember those times and I honestly thought that I'd never see them again in my lifetime, but there is a real danger that's what we'll end up with.



This gets said a lot about Corbyn and Labour.  But you rarely hear people talk about Tories taking us back to the 80s.  And whilst you remember the 70s and fear their return, I remember the 80s of massive cuts to public services, crumbling schools and hospitals, sky-high interest rates, 4 million unemployed, inner city riots, miners' strike, Police brutality and cover-ups, Poll Tax, the constant fear of war.

Why are you so fearful of a return to the 70s under Labour than a return to the 80s under this Govt?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 16:55:28
This gets said a lot about Corbyn and Labour.  But you rarely hear people talk about Tories taking us back to the 80s.  And whilst you remember the 70s and fear their return, I remember the 80s of massive cuts to public services, crumbling schools and hospitals, sky-high interest rates, 4 million unemployed, inner city riots, miners' strike, Police brutality and cover-ups, Poll Tax, the constant fear of war.

Why are you so fearful of a return to the 70s under Labour than a return to the 80s under this Govt?
And Thatcher. Don't forget Thatcher and her evil bunch of oily shysters......fuck me, who would want a return of those cunts. Massive cuts and privatisation of public services and flogging off of our national treasures. Not to mention the selling off of council houses, most since bought by fat-cat Tories as the working classes couldn't keep up with payments due to those sky-high interest rates, which has led to the huge housing crisis that we now have.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 17:00:43
The coverage of this is hilariously sensational

Yep.  The helicopter was a bit much.

Still think that May has questions to answer, though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 17:26:03


Why are you so fearful of a return to the 70s under Labour than a return to the 80s under this Govt?
Perhaps because a lot of  current Labour policies are the same as in the 70s - although I don't think for a minute they would actually start to renationalise what they say.

My rule of thumb is don't believe a word any politician says. It is, though, Labour's turn on the roundabout - but they'll make little difference to most people's lives.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 17:36:35
The coverage of this is hilariously sensational

Has there been this much interest in an MP arriving back at a London airport since Chamberlain in 1938?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 17:48:42
Has there been this much interest in an MP arriving back at a London airport since Chamberlain in 1938?

Interestingly, although perhaps not in the exact spot where Neville waved his bit of paper around and announced peace in our time, part of the airfield at Heston is now under the M4 service station.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 17:50:05
This gets said a lot about Corbyn and Labour.  But you rarely hear people talk about Tories taking us back to the 80s.  And whilst you remember the 70s and fear their return, I remember the 80s of massive cuts to public services, crumbling schools and hospitals, sky-high interest rates, 4 million unemployed, inner city riots, miners' strike, Police brutality and cover-ups, Poll Tax, the constant fear of war.

Why are you so fearful of a return to the 70s under Labour than a return to the 80s under this Govt?

One reason could be that the 70's with massive inflation and industrial unrest culminating in the winter of discontent paved the way for Thatcherism in the 80's in much the same way as the incompetence of the Weimar republic in the 20's paved the way for Hitler.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 17:59:34
Oops, not that I'm comparing Thatcher to Hitler.  I hate it when people casually link democratic politicians to tyrants.  I may not like Corbyn's policies but he hasn't murdered 50 million of his countrymen so calling him Stalin is just pathetic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 22:03:56
I may not like Corbyn's policies but he hasn't murdered 50 million of his countrymen
Yet


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 9, 2017, 11:56:50
Oops, not that I'm comparing Thatcher to Hitler.  I hate it when people casually link democratic politicians to tyrants.  I may not like Corbyn's policies but he hasn't murdered 50 million of his countrymen so calling him Stalin is just pathetic.

IDS is well on the way though  :(


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, November 9, 2017, 17:03:18
Oops, not that I'm comparing Thatcher to Hitler.  I hate it when people casually link democratic politicians to tyrants.  I may not like Corbyn's policies but he hasn't murdered 50 million of his countrymen so calling him Stalin is just pathetic.

Just out of interest, specifically which Corbyn policies don't you like?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 9, 2017, 17:32:16
 A rare piece of good news... Gove is now minded to accept the European ban on the pesticides which have catastrophically reduced the numbers of insect pollinators. OK his decision was driven by money rather than any green agenda, but the Government was previously opposed, happy to see the further decline of our natural environments.

Have you seen a wasp this year?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, November 9, 2017, 17:49:31
Like for like, liar for liar.  Mordaunt (Pompey N.) in for Patel. 

When Leave was warning that 73m Turks could flood the UK after accession, Mordaunt lied on TV that the UK did not have a power of veto over Turkish accession.



Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 9, 2017, 19:59:58
Like for like, liar for liar.  Mordaunt (Pompey N.) in for Patel.  

When Leave was warning that 73m Turks could flood the UK after accession, Mordaunt lied on TV that the UK did not have a power of veto over Turkish accession.
Replacement has to be a) a strident brexiteer and b) a woman so there was not a big choice.... Promotions now entirely based on keeping the divided cabinet from back stabbing rather than ability.

Mordaunt has a loose relationship with the truth and was thus the prime candidate.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, November 9, 2017, 20:13:44
Replacement has to be a) a strident brexiteer and b) a woman so there was not a big choice.... Promotions now entirely based on keeping the divided cabinet from back stabbing rather than ability.

Sadly this is spot on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 10, 2017, 11:18:57
Promotions now entirely based on keeping the divided cabinet from back stabbing rather than ability.
Hasn't that always been the case? i.e. political considerations will always override actual talent in selecting a cabinet. Even in governments that aren't crippled like this one, most leaders will use cabinet (or equivalent) posts as a form of patronage to reward allies on side and keep rivals in check


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 10, 2017, 11:36:50
Hasn't that always been the case? i.e. political considerations will always override actual talent in selecting a cabinet. Even in governments that aren't crippled like this one, most leaders will use cabinet (or equivalent) posts as a form of patronage to reward allies on side and keep rivals in check

Indeed, if it was going to be based entirely on ability, taking note of the current Tory MP's I would have thought Larry the Downing Street Cat would have been shoe in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 15, 2017, 09:18:18
Just out of interest how is this being reported and going down in Swindon?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/14/honda-uk-warns-mps-of-consequences-of-leaving-eu-customs-union


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, November 15, 2017, 09:21:00
First I've heard of it, but if the Swindon general public are as thick as the average Swindon fan they'll probably be happy about it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 15, 2017, 09:55:31
First I've heard of it, but if the Swindon general public are as thick as the average Swindon fan they'll probably be happy about it.

I remember on the ref night when the Swindon result came in being very surprised that Swindon voted out especially as so many jobs are reliant on the EU markets.

However thinking a bit more about it, I've known plenty of people who've done a stint in Honda, and they all hated it. Besides jobs, Honda have never brought anything to the town in a cultural sense, aside perhaps from a decent sushi restaurant up at Stanton House. 

As the article says 350 lorries a day is a lot of HGV, plus a high and growing % of immigrant workers, who will be happy enough to follow the work to Slovakia or somewhere similar, and there are plenty who would be happy to see them and Honda go.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, November 15, 2017, 11:55:49
Thanks Reg, that is exactly what I meant.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 15, 2017, 12:57:12
Discuss....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/14/sex-slang-steak-views-leave-remain-worlds-apart


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, November 15, 2017, 18:58:26
I mean basically all of that correlates to "leave voters are older", doesn't it?


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, November 15, 2017, 19:21:56
Nearly a quarter of Brexit leave voters don't know how to cook steak. if that's not damming on Brexit I don't know what is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, November 15, 2017, 19:24:57
Just out of interest how is this being reported and going down in Swindon?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/14/honda-uk-warns-mps-of-consequences-of-leaving-eu-customs-union

A rerun of the dire threats issued by Honda to the UK government before the inception of the €?, (because McBroon wouldn’t acquiesce to Bliar & not sign the UK up for joining), and then became a millstone around the necks of every European country except Germany.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 16, 2017, 09:24:10
A rerun of the dire threats issued by Honda to the UK government before the inception of the €?, (because McBroon wouldn’t acquiesce to Bliar & not sign the UK up for joining), and then became a millstone around the necks of every European country except Germany.

Your point is all the more valid as you have copied funny names for the key protagonists....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 29, 2017, 10:48:31
 So it looks like we've agreed a £ 50 Billion divorce settlement with the EU, not a bad price, about the same as bailing out RBS a few years back.  The Irish border looks more difficult to sort mind.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Wednesday, November 29, 2017, 11:27:37
Paying to leave a huge trading bloc, so we can negotiate a worse deal with the same trading bloc. Brexit is shambolic suicide.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, November 29, 2017, 11:43:43
it's the "will of the people" though*.

Even if people are dicks in economic risk/reasoning.

* of those that voted, obviously, not actually a massive majority and< 50% of the voting population. Even though a lot of them will die off in the next 10-20 years anyway. But hey, that's democracy.

Cameron is the biggest arsehole to have ever lead this country in the modern.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 29, 2017, 11:44:51
The Irish border looks more difficult to sort mind.



Not sure it can be sorted, hard border is the only option as completely setting aside the EU, even under WTO rules there is a requirement for a hard border...

a) Border between NI and RoI never be acceptable to RoI and as any exit deal needs agreement of ALL 27 members will fall over with an RoI objection.

b) Border in the Irish Sea will never be acceptable to the DUP and we know how much Theresa needs to keep Arlene happy.

Plus it NI get some manner of special deal, Scotland who voted overwhelmingly to remain will be seeking the same, will be even more amusing if the party that likes to make much of the 'Union' brings that down too due to their internal strife.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 29, 2017, 12:46:16
Paying to leave a huge trading bloc, so we can negotiate a worse deal with the same trading bloc. Brexit is shambolic suicide.

It’s not a trading bloc though, it’s a political union.  I am all for it, but people thinking you can just have some loose trading exchange for economic benefit without all the usurping of national laws are just as bad as those voting out in some bizarre hope it stops refugees, asylum seekers and immigrants from commonwealth countries.

Remaining in means accepting the general premise of the EU.  I still do not think a majority of the UK readily accept that, and until they do, we are set on the path of isolation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 30, 2017, 16:29:38
Stolen from Robert Peston

Just when I thought the government’s approach to Brexit could not be any more complicated and Byzantine (that is a euphemism), I am disabused of any notion that there has been a collective outbreak of rationality.

Here is the latest madness.
Do you remember that EU leaving date the PM wants to put into British law via her own amendment to the Withdrawal Act - which was her political gesture to prove to the more ardently Brexiteering Tories that we really really are leaving?
As you will recall it was widely derided as pointless because Article 50 of the EU Treaty already means we are leaving at the end of March 2019, whatever British law says.
But the amendment turns out to have created quite a thorny problem for her - because her advisers either didn’t notice or failed to point out that if parliament passes her amendment, the European Court of Justice could have no role in the UK after 11pm on 29 March 2019, in that the Withdrawal Bill explicitly says the ECJ has no jurisdiction after what it calls the leaving date.
The point is that in the original draft of the bill the actual date and time of leaving was not specified. And that was deliberate, to give maximum negotiating flexibility to the PM - which she has decided to thanklessly reject. Now if you are a Brexiteering ultra you will of course say hooray to that. But if you are the British PM you may well turn white and say “oh gawd, what have I done?”

The thing is she knows that a sensible Brexit - in fact the Brexit she will be requesting - at that summit in December - requires a role, even multiple roles, for the ECJ after March 2019. For starters, the two-year transition or “implementation” period that has such totemic significance for British business will require the ECJ to continue to hold sway in the UK till at least 2021. And as you will recall, I’ve been reporting for a week that the UK’s proffered deal on the rights of EU migrants in Britain would allow our Supreme Court to refer the most tricky cases to the ECJ.

Or to put it another way, if she gets the deal she wants at the summit in a couple of weeks, and she also gets her leaving date agreed by Parliament, then she would have to repeal her own EU withdrawal deal before March 2019 - if she intends to honour next month’s putative divorce deal.

Yes I know this sounds utterly crazy. But parliament is current tearing itself apart over a bill that the PM may find in just a few days that she needs to repeal.

Aaaaaaaaargh. As all good constitutionalists are wont to say."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 1, 2017, 16:37:32
David Davis offering a BOGOF on getting rid of incompetent shitbags:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/01/david-davis-threatens-to-quit-if-damian-green-sacked-unfairly

Although FWIW, I agree Green has been completely stitched up - why aren't the coppers involved being prosecuted for leaking what should surely be confidential details of a police investigation?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, December 1, 2017, 17:09:59
Ive kind of missed out on this.  But has he been wanking at work?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2giBAfDOGw


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, December 1, 2017, 17:45:03
Ministers so rarely resign on a point of principle these days.  So fair play to DD if he's prepared to do so for the right to knock one out at work.  Much though Barnier and Co have had to digest our red lines, I fear this one might come as a surprise.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, December 1, 2017, 18:11:16
Ministers so rarely resign on a point of principle these days.  So fair play to DD if he's prepared to do so for the right to knock one out at work.  Much though Barnier and Co have had to digest our red lines, I fear this one might come as a surprise.

TBF, IDS resigned over the cuts to benefits to disabled people, well at least that's what he said.  Justin Tomlinson just carried on.... until he was reshuffled by May when she became PM.  I don't think he was reshuffled anywhere else mind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 1, 2017, 19:05:56
Ministers so rarely resign on a point of principle these days.  So fair play to DD if he's prepared to do so for the right to knock one out at work.
He knows full well May can't afford to lose Green so he gets to make a grand gesture without any danger of actually having to give up the job he can't  be arsed to do properly

Although if Green does get forced out it would mark a first in British politics - the first ever knuckle shuffle reshuffle


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, December 3, 2017, 09:41:42
I fear it's going to have a messy ending....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Sunday, December 3, 2017, 11:56:35
This is what politics is coming to.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, December 3, 2017, 13:02:19
One tory MP on twitter has 'defended' him by saying it could have been somebody else using it. She went on to say that she allows various people to use her log in details, apparently completely unaware of any wrong doing.

These people are running the country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Sunday, December 3, 2017, 13:38:26
One tory MP on twitter has 'defended' him by saying it could have been somebody else using it. She went on to say that she allows various people to use her log in details, apparently completely unaware of any wrong doing.

These people are running the country.

Most places you would get the sack for this! Huge breach of data protection!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Sunday, December 3, 2017, 16:23:46
It absolutely could have been someone else doing it.  Once.  Twice.  Maybe even several times.  But for hundreds of hours over 3 months!  Just how stupid are they hoping we all are? 

He would be far better off admitting to watching porn (which 99% of men have done after all) than blatantly lying.  Much like Nixon who didn't get done for Watergate but for trying to cover it up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, December 4, 2017, 12:08:04
 This could be fake news, however it's being reported that the Tories are effectively agreeing to allow Norn Iron to stay in the EU.

 :popcorn:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, December 4, 2017, 12:40:28
If that’s true it won’t be long before the Scottish fishwife chirps up for her tribe of hairy arsed Jocks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, December 4, 2017, 12:58:54
If that’s true it won’t be long before the Scottish fishwife chirps up for her tribe of hairy arsed Jocks.

Never mind Scotland, London will definitely not fancy the door, and that's a pretty significant chunk of the economy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 4, 2017, 13:08:38
I imagine the good people of Gibraltar are also watching developments with interest...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, December 4, 2017, 22:06:10
So, the DUP pull rank and prevent May from negotiating the deal as was.

To be honest, I'm not sure why the Irish think they can bargain on that point - surely once the Uk exits, a hard border is the default position, tough luck.  We don't get a trade deal with the EUk on exit, tough luck on us. Done.

People need to stop pussy footing around on this - the UK electorate, rightly or wrongly, doesn't want to be in the EU so has to take it's medicine on exit.  The cost of doing business with the EU will be more expensive, the ease of moving between countries will be a little more challenging (some sort of Visa programme will be required to pop to Spain for example) and some low wage industries will have a distinct lack of employees, causing costs to increase in food especially.  That was all known - it's the price many are willing to pay to take some sort of sovereignty back.

What I will find interesting to watch is the reaction when the immigration numbers from the Commonwealth countries remains as is, or maybe even increases.  You will probably also an increase from countries such as the Philippines, Pakistan, the middle east etc.  Now, I am trying to say this nicely, but I guess a big majority of those voting on Brexit because of immigration may not be so happy with that outcome - just because the Uk Govt. takes control, does not mean it won't make decisions you don't like.  In fact, history suggests customer desires for lower costs good and services, mixed with big business desires for profits and pressure on Govt officials will probably mean we all know what will happen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 11:00:43
So, the DUP pull rank and prevent May from negotiating the deal as was.

To be honest, I'm not sure why the Irish think they can bargain on that point - surely once the Uk exits, a hard border is the default position, tough luck.  We don't get a trade deal with the EUk on exit, tough luck on us. Done.


Because they are religious nutjobs with a limited grasp on reality who have been granted a disproportionate amount of power by a lame duck who proved herself evermore clueless yesterday. Sod the EU, if the hard Brexiteers get their favoured utopia of reverting back to WTO rules there is a little thing called WTO most favoured nation rules which means that there will have to be a hard border for the UK to be allowed to trade in such a manner, this whole bollocks that its up to the RoI/EU to build a border if they insist on one is quite simply that - bollocks.


it's the price many are willing to pay to take some sort of sovereignty back.


I am no expert but I am still not sure our being at the whim of both the EU and the WTO with considerably less influence on their decision making is really what taking back sovereignty means?


What I will find interesting to watch is the reaction when the immigration numbers from the Commonwealth countries remains as is, or maybe even increases.  You will probably also an increase from countries such as the Philippines, Pakistan, the middle east etc.  Now, I am trying to say this nicely, but I guess a big majority of those voting on Brexit because of immigration may not be so happy with that outcome.

I know of a lot of people from West Yorkshire who voted leave purely on the basis that it would apparently mean 'less Asians coming over here', they are in for a shock.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 11:12:15
Quote
am no expert but I am still not sure our being at the whim of both the EU and the WTO with considerably less influence on their decision making is really what taking back sovereignty means?

You're assuming a thought process there. That's not to say many many people who voted out didn't realise it, but I bet at least 2% didn't/probably still don't.

Quote
I know of a lot of people from West Yorkshire who voted leave purely on the basis that it would apparently mean 'less Asians coming over here', they are in for a shock.

Had an argument about that with someone on FB. Literally they didn't know < 50% of migrants were from inside the EU. Then they didn't know the % of those that contributed positively to our economy. It was like South Park "dey took urrrrr jooobs".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 11:27:55
I don’t think it’s a shock that a sizeable proportion of those who voted to leave are intellectually challenged


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 11:37:02
I know of a lot of people from West Yorkshire who voted leave purely on the basis that it would apparently mean 'less Asians coming over here', they are in for a shock.

TBF Farage did say during the ref campaign that the Euro immigrants would be replaced by sub continental immigrants, which probably explains the out vote from Asian communities.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 12:04:26

Had an argument about that with someone on FB. Literally they didn't know < 50% of migrants were from inside the EU. Then they didn't know the % of those that contributed positively to our economy. It was like South Park "dey took urrrrr jooobs".

I found myself watching some documentary a while back. One character that was a focus of the doc was some young bloke, he was clearly not very well educated.

Throughout the documentary he was bemoaning the fact that he wasn't in work because: "their taking are jobz'. One example he used was a restaurant selling European food (Portuguese I think? I forget). It was probably run by foreigners, and possibly staffed by foreigners. I dunno, I'm just guessing. Anyway.

It was clear that the fact these people were actually CREATING jobs, and not taking them, was completely lost to this particular specimen. Explain it to him and I'm sure it would still not have registered. I'm sure he would have just glazed over and repeated his mantra of: 'but there'yre taking are jobz".

Just think. The votes of people like this hold just as much influence as yours.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 12:13:33
Just think. The votes of people like this hold just as much influence as yours.

Quite rightly, it should do.

It is reckoned that Remain lost the Ref, as there were large numbers of people voting who felt they had nothing to lose and wanted to put 2 fingers up to the political establishment.  However nothing is a relative term....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 13:15:53
It was clear that the fact these people were actually CREATING jobs, and not taking them, was completely lost to this particular specimen. Explain it to him and I'm sure it would still not have registered. I'm sure he would have just glazed over and repeated his mantra of: 'but there'yre taking are jobz".
A Pole employing 30 + people in Eastbourne was conversing in German with a German "prospect" on the train.  He was on his way from London to Eastbourne going to the Christmas party he had laid on for his employees and their other halves.  He had to listen to a bloke moaning about him and his prospect for speaking German and taking British jobs only to meet the stupid twat later.  The "other half" of one of his employees.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 13:51:10
I don’t think it’s a shock that a sizeable proportion of those who voted to leave are intellectually challenged
And by your very own words, you have just dumped yourself in with the ‘intellectually challenged’ you so desperately wanted to distance yourself from. 😂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 14:00:23
Quite rightly, it should do.



Sure, but that doesn't make it any less terrifying.

It's not so much the conclusion (regardless of whether or not I agree), but the reasoning behind it that puts the willies up me. Such a thing is beyond opinion, it's just plain factually erroneous. It's the kind of thing that would compel me to vote myself if I were able to.

I like to think though that maybe the books are balanced at last a little with equally ridiculous 'reasoning' leading people to vote the other way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 14:11:33
I don’t think it’s a shock that a sizeable proportion of those who voted to leave are intellectually challenged
That's just snobbery. It's that kind of attitude from the elite that led to many voting leave in the first place.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 15:04:33
That's just snobbery. It's that kind of attitude from the elite that led to many voting leave in the first place.

When you say elite do you mean the metropolitan elite who on the whole base their opinions on facts and research, or the Brexit Elite who just lead those who blindly look p to them to their own detriment whilst making money on the disruption it causes?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 15:20:49
When you say elite do you mean the metropolitan elite who on the whole base their opinions on facts and research, or the Brexit Elite who just lead those who blindly look p to them to their own detriment whilst making money on the disruption it causes?
I mean the elite who neglected the concerns of whole swathes of the population for years and then assumed they would vote "the right way" because they'd been told to so didn't even really bother to make much of a case for their cause because it seemed to them that it was just obvious and, well, there was no alternative was there? Except there was. That elite.

Just because the Brexiteers are a bunch of loathsome self-serving hypocrites, doesn't mean their erstwhile opponents are any less so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 16:06:46
Just because the Brexiteers are a bunch of loathsome self-serving hypocrites, doesn't mean their erstwhile opponents are any less so.

I suppose that the EU is starting to look at tax avoidance in some of the British Isles and overseas dependencies, has nothing to do with the Brexiteers desire to rush to the cliff edge  :hmmm:   probably just coincidence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 16:23:55
I mean the elite who neglected the concerns of whole swathes of the population for years and then assumed they would vote "the right way" because they'd been told to so didn't even really bother to make much of a case for their cause because it seemed to them that it was just obvious and, well, there was no alternative was there? Except there was. That elite.

Just because the Brexiteers are a bunch of loathsome self-serving hypocrites, doesn't mean their erstwhile opponents are any less so.

Issue is we are where we are...

The problem for people like me is that as it stands Labour is currently behaving in a way which, in the long term, acts explicitly against the best interests of its members (bluntly, the poor will continue to get poorer), whilst the Tories are acting in a way which is explicitly against the best interests of anyone who is disadvantaged (the rich will continue to get richer). Both issues could be solved by bold leadership, but so in thrall are our politicians to this specious concept of ‘the will of the people’, that we have only apologists, followers and deserters taking the stand.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 16:25:31
I suppose that the EU is starting to look at tax avoidance in some of the British Isles and overseas dependencies, has nothing to do with the Brexiteers desire to rush to the cliff edge  :hmmm:   probably just coincidence.

I suspect as coincidental as the fact that in the majority of cases those stridently pushing hard brexit at all costs are funded by those who stand to do well in disrupted markets, see the Legatum bunch for example.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 16:44:03
Issue is we are where we are...

The problem for people like me is that as it stands Labour is currently behaving in a way which, in the long term, acts explicitly against the best interests of its members (bluntly, the poor will continue to get poorer), whilst the Tories are acting in a way which is explicitly against the best interests of anyone who is disadvantaged (the rich will continue to get richer). Both issues could be solved by bold leadership, but so in thrall are our politicians to this specious concept of ‘the will of the people’, that we have only apologists, followers and deserters taking the stand.
I don't disagree with any of that. I just objected to Abrahammer sneering at people who'd voted Leave. Whichever side you voted, we were all conned/let down by the political "leadership" of this country and are continuing to be so. The ire and contempt should be directed at those who've sold us all down the river for their own interests, not at people who saw an opportunity to kick back at decades of being taken for granted and took it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 16:51:20
I don't disagree with any of that. I just objected to Abrahammer sneering at people who'd voted Leave. Whichever side you voted, we were all conned/let down by the political "leadership" of this country and are continuing to be so. The ire and contempt should be directed at those who've sold us all down the river for their own interests, not at people who saw an opportunity to kick back at decades of being taken for granted and took it.

I think we are generally saying the same here although I would observe that taking an opportunity to kick back at decades of being taken for granted by punching yourself in the face does seem either ill informed or rather extreme. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 17:10:12
I'm becoming increasingly irritated by Corbyn's silence.  The time for 'constructive ambiguity' is over.  Someone tell him, please, that there is a lot going on in the news at the moment.  Much as it might be tempting to sit back and watch the Tories commit suicide in plain view, now might be a good time to show a little leadership and to champion an outcome that might benefit your support base.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 17:23:24
I think that the present Labour tactic is to commit to absolutely nothing and wait until Brexit goes royally tits up and then finally come out, sadly this means that the floating electorate has no clue what they actually stand for on the major issues affecting the Country.

Unfortunately this has its down side, despite the manner in which the Corbynistas have persuaded themselves they won the election, at this point in the electoral cycle standing a couple of points ahead of a party without a credible leader that is imploding in front of the electorate and are telling blatant lies (and getting rumbled doing so) and is riddled with sleeze, international embarrassment and internal strife says rather a lot, Labour should be streets ahead and they ain't, you can blame the media as much as you like but if the floating voters don't get it, therein lies a major problem that Labour are failing to address and I suspect could come back and bite them on the arse when real decisions have to be taken.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 17:33:56
I think we are generally saying the same here although I would observe that taking an opportunity to kick back at decades of being taken for granted by punching yourself in the face does seem either ill informed or rather extreme.  
The former I'd suggest. As a nation, we have been very badly served by our media and political leadership over the last few decades. We are increasingly ignorant.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 18:43:22
We are increasingly ignorant.

Stop sneering!  ;) :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 21:19:24
Stop sneering!  ;) :D
:) It was the royal we, I was acknowledging I'm a fucking idiot


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 6, 2017, 22:45:57
So David Davis and the Chancellor have admitted today that
a) They haven't got a fucking clue what the outcome of Brexit will actually be
b) They haven't actually planned anything
c) The government haven't even agreed on what they'd like the outcome to be, much less have any fucking clue of how they'd achieve it

If as the saying goes we get the government we deserve in a democracy, we must all have been extremely bad because leaving any partisan considerations aside, this lot are a complete fucking shambles. And not even shamefaced about admitting it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, December 6, 2017, 23:53:29
So David Davis and the Chancellor have admitted today that
a) They haven't got a fucking clue what the outcome of Brexit will actually be
b) They haven't actually planned anything
c) The government haven't even agreed on what they'd like the outcome to be, much less have any fucking clue of how they'd achieve it

If as the saying goes we get the government we deserve in a democracy, we must all have been extremely bad because leaving any partisan considerations aside, this lot are a complete fucking shambles. And not even shamefaced about admitting it.

Davis's loss of the 58 studies on the economic impact of Brexit on sectors of the economy, is a classic. It's OK though we'll do some more once it's happened.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 7, 2017, 00:25:15
Davis's loss of the 58 studies on the economic impact of Brexit on sectors of the economy, is a classic. It's OK though we'll do some more once it's happened.
Well you say "loss", but perhaps you're not being entirely fair. Did he lose them? Did they even exist at all? Do we even need any actual facts or information in this post-truth Johnson/Gove world? Who knows? Certainly, not David Davis a man who would clearly struggle to find his own arse with both hands, even if such an arse actually existed*



* It does, and it's called Liam Fox


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 7, 2017, 07:47:10
well, to my mind there's two things that could have happened

1. he made them up
2. the are so damning that getting the flack for pretending they are made up is preferable to surrendering to the pressure on  releasing them.

I have a third theory that the Tories are trying to take a drive and leave labour with the brexit mess, while labour are pulling punches because they don't want it either. But surely not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, December 7, 2017, 09:40:40
Davis suggested that any economic impact assessments would be pretty much useless as Brexit is a "paradigm change". In passing he mentioned the global economic downturn, as another un-seen event in modelling.

Personally, I think there's nothing sinister here, he's just a very lazy man. I can relate to that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 7, 2017, 10:07:58
When I previously worked for the government (it was officially a public corporation) I was not allowed to get out of my car on site without completing a risk assessment, yet apparently we can do something like this which affects 60m+ people with no clue or consideration of the risks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 7, 2017, 10:33:56
Personally, I think there's nothing sinister here, he's just a very lazy man.
Oh I agree, lazy, incompetent and vain. No wonder he gets on well with Boris


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 7, 2017, 11:27:14
When I previously worked for the government (it was officially a public corporation) I was not allowed to get out of my car on site without completing a risk assessment

This is not a joke is it?
Were you working with nuclear materials at Aldermaston, or driving a monster truck?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 7, 2017, 12:03:09
This is not a joke is it?
Were you working with nuclear materials at Aldermaston, or driving a monster truck?

Working on the canals, to be honest it was a very quick process and quite useful at making you stop and think before you started work, it was not onerous at all.

(and I may have often filled the book in at the end of the week!!)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, December 8, 2017, 11:07:08
Right so the Brexit issues of divorce bill, Ireland, ECJ and citizen's rights have been fudged, so now time to move on to trade negotiations.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 8, 2017, 11:28:39
Right so the Brexit issues of divorce bill, Ireland, ECJ and citizen's rights have been fudged, so now time to move on to trade negotiations.

Yep just another 12 months of cock waving and chest thumping before reality and capitulation follows.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Friday, December 8, 2017, 20:10:11
This deal reads like EU membership + a £39bn invoice - voting rights on legislation (which we’ll adopt anyway).

Soft Brexit and an enormous magic money tree rolled into one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, December 8, 2017, 23:01:37
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Saturday, December 9, 2017, 20:50:44
Well I never. Brexit is going to shit. Who'd have foreseen that?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 11, 2017, 10:31:27
I am but a bear of little brain, but pray tell how is the capitulation of Friday a triumph....
Unless of course such events as Hastings, Gallipoli, Dunkirk etc are now triumphs?

(https://thepaperboy.azureedge.net/frontpages/archive/Daily_Express_Sunday_10_12_2017_400.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, December 11, 2017, 10:48:29
I am but a bear of little brain, but pray tell how is the capitulation of Friday a triumph....
Unless of course such events as Hastings, Gallipoli, Dunkirk etc are now triumphs?

Tory press knows that it has to try and prop up May, otherwise they'll get a Labour government who should want to implement the recommendations of the Leveson Inquiry.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, December 14, 2017, 10:26:29
 Well done to the dozen or so Tory "rebels" who voted with the opposition out of conscience, that the Brexit vote meant returning sovereignty to Parliament, and not the swivel eyed loons and their cheer leaders Dacre and Murdoch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Thursday, December 14, 2017, 10:32:51
"We've got the EU over a barrel"

What sort of moron believes that sort of statement


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, December 14, 2017, 10:48:02
"We've got the EU over a barrel"

What sort of moron believes that sort of statement
The same people that believed the £350m a week being plowed back into the NHS after Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, December 14, 2017, 10:54:46
The same people that believed the £350m a week being plowed back into the NHS after Brexit.

 :no:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, December 14, 2017, 11:08:56
I see the daily mail responded to that with typical grace and decorum


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, December 14, 2017, 11:14:44
:no:
:D oops


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, December 14, 2017, 11:29:49
:D oops

Language doesn't stand still and I suppose it's inevitable that American English will eventually take over....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, December 14, 2017, 11:31:14
Language doesn't stand still and I suppose it's inevitable that American English will eventually take over....
I think the term fits appropriately enough.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=plowed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Thursday, December 14, 2017, 11:36:31
I see the daily mail responded to that with typical grace and decorum
:D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 14, 2017, 12:11:37
I see the daily mail responded to that with typical grace and decorum

Its made it even more enjoyable.

BTW I believe the standard response is 'you lost, get over it'


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 20, 2017, 21:30:58
Damien Green resigns.

Kleenex shares will rise in the morning


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 20, 2017, 21:47:23
Resigned to spend more time with his right hand...

Will Davis now do the honourable thing and as threatened resign in protest of the demonising of his mates right to have a wank at work....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, December 21, 2017, 08:13:19
Resigned to spend more time with his right hand...

Will Davis now do the honourable thing and as threatened resign in protest of the demonising of his mates right to have a wank at work....

Will he fuck.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-secretary-david-davis-threatened-11730590


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 21, 2017, 10:14:54
At least he's consistent - he's consistently a lying, spineless shit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 21, 2017, 10:43:50
He wrote out a full and detailed resignation letter last week.
Only he didn't really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, December 21, 2017, 10:51:45
He wrote out a full and detailed resignation letter last week.
Only he didn't really.

 :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, December 21, 2017, 11:53:10
He wrote out a full and detailed resignation letter last week.
Only he didn't really.

Heh.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 21, 2017, 14:28:18
But Green is getting a £17,000 pay-off for being literally a lying wanker. Careful you don't bang that snout on the way into the trough


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, December 21, 2017, 18:59:32
Resigned to spend more time with his right hand...

Will Davis now do the honourable thing and as threatened resign in protest of the demonising of his mates right to have a wank at work....
Keith Vaz


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 21, 2017, 19:05:10
Keith Vaz
Is that a euphemism..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 21, 2017, 20:01:00
Keith Vaz
Ah, the standard whatabouterry of the desperate. Keith Vaz should have been fired, of course he should. But that doesn't make Davis any less of a useless lying gobshite. The major difference of course being that Vaz is largely irrelevant whereas Davis has baffingly been entrusted with the negotiations that will determine the future economic well being of the nation


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, December 22, 2017, 11:30:41
The chief negotiator of the biggest constitutional change this country has seen in 40 years, and we now know that he makes idle threats and is incapable of keeping his word. I bet the EU negotiators are fucking pissing themselves.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, December 22, 2017, 12:56:32
The chief negotiator of the biggest constitutional change this country has seen in 40 years, and we now know that he makes idle threats and is incapable of keeping his word. I bet the EU negotiators are fucking pissing themselves.

Think you may be overstating how much of a surprise this will come as to anyone


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, December 22, 2017, 14:15:00
OK maybe I should've said now we can prove


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 22, 2017, 17:11:22
By gong back on his word to resign Davis has betrayed office wankers throughout the country, I look forward to the Daily Mail cover confirming him as a traitor to wankers everywhere!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, December 23, 2017, 19:36:43
 This thread, so entertaining. The gift that keeps giving.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, January 4, 2018, 11:48:42
 Some interesting thoughts by Herr Gove about farming post Brexit. He spouts stuff which sound radical Green, about tax payer subsidies going to the wealthiest landowners, suggesting they should do more for the environment, trees, birds, meadows etc. in return for their benefits.

 Would be good if true, so more likely it will be used as a way of sidelining EU environmental rules, and allowing more housebuilding on sensitive landscapes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 4, 2018, 12:12:09
Some interesting thoughts by Herr Gove about farming post Brexit. He spouts stuff which sound radical Green, about tax payer subsidies going to the wealthiest landowners, suggesting they should do more for the environment, trees, birds, meadows etc. in return for their benefits.


Then just basically confirms that the status quo will continue until 2024, making sure that the wealthiest landowners continue to get their cash.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 26, 2018, 13:06:05
Shamelessly nicked from the Politics.co.uk weekly email as its a decent summary, providing some context to the events of this week...

'Today's skirmishes are the first shots of 2018's internal Tory war on Brexit.

The fighting began yesterday, when Philip Hammond stressed that any changes with Europe after Brexit would take place "very modestly", thereby keeping the two economies "interconnected and aligned".

This provoked a predictable backbench backlash. Jacob Rees-Mogg, who acts more and more like he is in a leadership contest, said "I profoundly disagree with the chancellor" and damned ministers for being "cowed by the EU". Former minister Andrew Percy told the chancellor to "put a sock in it" while his colleague Owen Paterson said "it would be good if all Cabinet ministers stuck to government policy".

Downing Street - petrified, as ever, by anything which spooks the headbangers - started briefing against Hammond, stressing that leaving the single market and customs union "could not be described as very modest changes".

But far from moving away from government policy, Hammond is merely reiterating the first phase agreement the UK signed a month ago, in which it promised to accept "full alignment" with the EU to prevent a border in Ireland. Ministers tried to put a brave face on it, but this doesn't just mean having the same rules as the EU now. It means we have to keep them that way in future. If anything, Hammond overstates the extent to which Britain can move away from the EU system.

The consequences of moving away from Europe are very severe. Britain would close itself off from its largest market and recreate a border in Ireland.

The choice ahead of the UK is simple: full trade and little control, or full control and little trade. Neither are palatable. Once the reality of that choice becomes clear, people will split down the middle. The unspoken, internal divisions in the Tory party between the headbanger Brexiters and pragmatic Brexiters will be harder to suffocate with cake-and-eat-it platitudes.

Meanwhile, a second front was opening up in the Tory psychodrama civil war - this time on transition.

As Hammond battened down the hatches against friendly fire, David Davis was preparing a speech on his plans for what happens in the two years after March 2019. The Brexit secretary had himself experienced a savaging at the hands of Rees-Mogg during a Brexit committee hearing earlier in the week, in which the backbencher told him Britain would be a "vassal state" during transition - taking on all EU rules and yet not having any role in formulating them.

To counter that impression, Davis is emphasising that Britain can negotiate and perhaps even sign its own trade deals during this period - even if it can only implement them later.

He's trying to put a brave face on things, but the reality is that Britain is going to roll over on everything. Europe has been clear that only one thing has been on offer. It was the original offer and it is the only one available now. There will be no other offers. Britain is going to keep everything exactly as it is, except that it will lose any power to influence the rules - either via the election of MEPs or through voting rights in EU agencies.

Davis' lame efforts to pretend that Britain will be able to negotiate new trade deals in this time are just an attempt to focus on the positives, even where they have no substance to them. Sources in Brussels have always been perfectly happy to let the UK negotiate trade deals during transition because they know this freedom is largely theoretical.

The UK doesn't have the negotiating capacity to conduct dual track talks - one set with the EU and another with everyone else. Even if it did, two years would not be enough time. And other countries would not want or be able to agree a deal with the UK until they understood what its final relationship with the EU was.

Imagine that during transition Liam Fox tried to talk to the US about a deal. The quid-pro-quo of a UK-US trade deal would be that the US opens itself up to penetration by UK financial services in exchange for the UK opening itself up to US manufacturing and agriculture. Even this is unlikely to be achievable, but lets pretend for a moment it can be done.

Britain can only open itself up to US agriculture if it has disconnected itself formally from the EU, because there are different standards on their products. All that chlorine-soaked chicken and hormone-injected beef is not going to be allowed into the European market. The UK can either detach from the EU and take those goods or stay attached to the EU and not take them. But whichever option it decides, it needs to know what its relationship with the EU is before it can decide anything with the US.

Far from being a potent trading powerhouse, Britain is actually having to go to the the EU cap-in-hand to help it roll over its existing third party trade deals with other countries. These range from full-fat free trade deals with countries like South Korea and Canada to smaller semi-skimmed trade arrangements with countries like the US and China, as well as other agreements on issues like energy, security and data protection.

Once upon a time, Fox bragged he could have all these deals sorted by the time the UK left in March 2019. He was told at the time this was not possible. Now that he has wasted a year flying around the world to no observable purpose, his department has effectively admitted his critics were right. UK negotiators are going to have ask the EU to help it roll-over those deals during transition.

There will be complaints by these third parties, but by presenting a united front - as they have done at the WTO on the vexed issue of tariff quotas - the EU and the UK stand a better chance of staring them down.

Again, we're seeing the brute reality of the Brexit dynamic laid bare: far from sailing across the world winning stunning trade victories, Britain is having to ask the EU to help clean up the mess it has made. Glory has turned to humility.

The same process is clear across the debate - on the terms of transition and on the development of the future relationship. The cake is not being had and eaten, it is being picked up and thrown at the wall.

The real choices entailed by Brexit are finally being recognised: a diminished Britain, choosing between trade and control. And with no delusions to sink into, the Tory party is increasingly free to go to war with itself.'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Friday, January 26, 2018, 13:39:24
Shamelessly nicked from the Politics.co.uk weekly email as its a decent summary, providing some context to the events of this week...

'Today's skirmishes are the first shots of 2018's internal Tory war on Brexit.

The fighting began yesterday, when Philip Hammond stressed that any changes with Europe after Brexit would take place "very modestly", thereby keeping the two economies "interconnected and aligned".

This provoked a predictable backbench backlash. Jacob Rees-Mogg, who acts more and more like he is in a leadership contest, said "I profoundly disagree with the chancellor" and damned ministers for being "cowed by the EU". Former minister Andrew Percy told the chancellor to "put a sock in it" while his colleague Owen Paterson said "it would be good if all Cabinet ministers stuck to government policy".

Downing Street - petrified, as ever, by anything which spooks the headbangers - started briefing against Hammond, stressing that leaving the single market and customs union "could not be described as very modest changes".

But far from moving away from government policy, Hammond is merely reiterating the first phase agreement the UK signed a month ago, in which it promised to accept "full alignment" with the EU to prevent a border in Ireland. Ministers tried to put a brave face on it, but this doesn't just mean having the same rules as the EU now. It means we have to keep them that way in future. If anything, Hammond overstates the extent to which Britain can move away from the EU system.

The consequences of moving away from Europe are very severe. Britain would close itself off from its largest market and recreate a border in Ireland.

The choice ahead of the UK is simple: full trade and little control, or full control and little trade. Neither are palatable. Once the reality of that choice becomes clear, people will split down the middle. The unspoken, internal divisions in the Tory party between the headbanger Brexiters and pragmatic Brexiters will be harder to suffocate with cake-and-eat-it platitudes.

Meanwhile, a second front was opening up in the Tory psychodrama civil war - this time on transition.

As Hammond battened down the hatches against friendly fire, David Davis was preparing a speech on his plans for what happens in the two years after March 2019. The Brexit secretary had himself experienced a savaging at the hands of Rees-Mogg during a Brexit committee hearing earlier in the week, in which the backbencher told him Britain would be a "vassal state" during transition - taking on all EU rules and yet not having any role in formulating them.

To counter that impression, Davis is emphasising that Britain can negotiate and perhaps even sign its own trade deals during this period - even if it can only implement them later.

He's trying to put a brave face on things, but the reality is that Britain is going to roll over on everything. Europe has been clear that only one thing has been on offer. It was the original offer and it is the only one available now. There will be no other offers. Britain is going to keep everything exactly as it is, except that it will lose any power to influence the rules - either via the election of MEPs or through voting rights in EU agencies.

Davis' lame efforts to pretend that Britain will be able to negotiate new trade deals in this time are just an attempt to focus on the positives, even where they have no substance to them. Sources in Brussels have always been perfectly happy to let the UK negotiate trade deals during transition because they know this freedom is largely theoretical.

The UK doesn't have the negotiating capacity to conduct dual track talks - one set with the EU and another with everyone else. Even if it did, two years would not be enough time. And other countries would not want or be able to agree a deal with the UK until they understood what its final relationship with the EU was.

Imagine that during transition Liam Fox tried to talk to the US about a deal. The quid-pro-quo of a UK-US trade deal would be that the US opens itself up to penetration by UK financial services in exchange for the UK opening itself up to US manufacturing and agriculture. Even this is unlikely to be achievable, but lets pretend for a moment it can be done.

Britain can only open itself up to US agriculture if it has disconnected itself formally from the EU, because there are different standards on their products. All that chlorine-soaked chicken and hormone-injected beef is not going to be allowed into the European market. The UK can either detach from the EU and take those goods or stay attached to the EU and not take them. But whichever option it decides, it needs to know what its relationship with the EU is before it can decide anything with the US.

Far from being a potent trading powerhouse, Britain is actually having to go to the the EU cap-in-hand to help it roll over its existing third party trade deals with other countries. These range from full-fat free trade deals with countries like South Korea and Canada to smaller semi-skimmed trade arrangements with countries like the US and China, as well as other agreements on issues like energy, security and data protection.

Once upon a time, Fox bragged he could have all these deals sorted by the time the UK left in March 2019. He was told at the time this was not possible. Now that he has wasted a year flying around the world to no observable purpose, his department has effectively admitted his critics were right. UK negotiators are going to have ask the EU to help it roll-over those deals during transition.

There will be complaints by these third parties, but by presenting a united front - as they have done at the WTO on the vexed issue of tariff quotas - the EU and the UK stand a better chance of staring them down.

Again, we're seeing the brute reality of the Brexit dynamic laid bare: far from sailing across the world winning stunning trade victories, Britain is having to ask the EU to help clean up the mess it has made. Glory has turned to humility.

The same process is clear across the debate - on the terms of transition and on the development of the future relationship. The cake is not being had and eaten, it is being picked up and thrown at the wall.

The real choices entailed by Brexit are finally being recognised: a diminished Britain, choosing between trade and control. And with no delusions to sink into, the Tory party is increasingly free to go to war with itself.'



What a farce. So predictable and so avoidable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, January 26, 2018, 14:23:13
To be fair, while I agree with nearly every point on the impact of Brexit raised in that article (opinion piece more like), the voters knew what they were voting for - In or Out.  They went, marginally, with Out because they had some dream that all the Johnny Foreigners would stop coming in (ignoring that the ones they want to stop are not impacted by the EU anyway).  They knew the trade off was getting out of a huge trade block, but a fair chunk did not care - they were already earning around minumum wage so felt what did they have to lose personally, so what if some banks make less money.  Having been shafted, in their eyes, for so long by big corporations and a Political "eilte", this was their chance to stick two fingers up at that.

In any event, if we continue to just frame the EU as a trade partnership with membership dues, we will never truly appreciate what it is there for.

Better to just rip the plaster off right now.

I live knowing I am in a very small minority who would gladly give up UK sovereignty - namely because it means jack shit to me, personally.  That's what being the EU is about - breaking down barriers, borders, politics etc.  Allowing people to choose where they want to be, free competition etc.  The biggest issue with that vision still is that people are too scared to really push to the inevitable conclusion - single social and economic policy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, January 26, 2018, 14:43:01
The bottom line for me was did I want to be in a United States of Europe. I didn't. As you say RobertT single social and economic policy is the dream. As you say, rip the plaster off now.
I just wish we had said from the start we will remove ourselves from everything EU and take the short term pain. That would have provided clarity and we could have got cracking.
We've elected to leave now, I can see others do so along the journey. It will be interesting when they try to put Muslim migrants into ex Eastern block countries against the wishes of the respective Governments. There are many other potential flashpoints along the way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, January 26, 2018, 14:51:22
Quote
The real choices entailed by Brexit are finally being recognised: a diminished Britain, choosing between trade and control. And with no delusions to sink into, the Tory party is increasingly free to go to war with itself.'

The Tory internecine war is hotting up.... according to an ex minister, a poor showing in the local elections particularly in London, but Swindon gets a mention, and the plotters will move against May.

In Swindon the Tories have 30 councillors, and Lib and Lab opposition 27. Here's hoping...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, January 26, 2018, 14:51:43
To be fair, while I agree with nearly every point on the impact of Brexit raised in that article (opinion piece more like), the voters knew what they were voting for - In or Out.  They went, marginally, with Out because they had some dream that all the Johnny Foreigners would stop coming in (ignoring that the ones they want to stop are not impacted by the EU anyway).  They knew the trade off was getting out of a huge trade block, but a fair chunk did not care - they were already earning around minumum wage so felt what did they have to lose personally, so what if some banks make less money.  Having been shafted, in their eyes, for so long by big corporations and a Political "eilte", this was their chance to stick two fingers up at that.

I live knowing I am in a very small minority who would gladly give up UK sovereignty - namely because it means jack shit to me, personally.  That's what being the EU is about - breaking down barriers, borders, politics etc.  Allowing people to choose where they want to be, free competition etc.  The biggest issue with that vision still is that people are too scared to really push to the inevitable conclusion - single social and economic policy.

Totally agree Robert. A lot of what people are "afraid" of, is integrating with people from different cultures, countries and society. Why that bothers them, I will never truly know.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, January 26, 2018, 14:55:29
I think Brexit has been a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, January 26, 2018, 17:23:24
I think Brexit has been a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Its an exercise in freedom from communism. No nose of face involved, unless your a commie sympathizer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, January 26, 2018, 18:17:49
Its an exercise in freedom from communism. No nose of face involved, unless your a commie sympathizer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sh4kz_zhyo


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, January 26, 2018, 18:22:25
OK, I'll bite.

What in the flying fuck does the EU have to do with communism?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, January 26, 2018, 18:25:54
OK, I'll bite.

What in the flying fuck does the EU have to do with communism?


Its another commie block, as Gorbachev said "its strange that as the east tears down communist oppression the west moves towards it".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, January 26, 2018, 18:34:19
It's strange that I can't find a source for that quote anywhere...

How is the EU a communist block?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, January 26, 2018, 18:45:23
It's strange that I can't find a source for that quote anywhere...

How is the EU a communist block?

Unelected quizzlings, no democratic vote on political decisions made.(when there has been votes they've been ignored) oh yes and a brainwashed public with stockholm syndrome. Look at how the UK never had a say on joing the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, January 26, 2018, 18:54:17
Unelected quizzlings,

Are they young people who like quizzes  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, January 26, 2018, 19:02:26
Are they young people who like quizzes  :hmmm:

Yes most definitely.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, January 26, 2018, 19:47:44
It's strange that I can't find a source for that quote anywhere...

How is the EU a communist block?
Ironical accusation because the EU has been transformative to those countries that were part of the old true Communist bloc in helping them achieve improved wealth and democracy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, January 26, 2018, 21:41:19
Unelected quizzlings, no democratic vote on political decisions made.(when there has been votes they've been ignored) oh yes and a brainwashed public with stockholm syndrome. Look at how the UK never had a say on joing the EU.
Eh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum,_1975

Did this not happen in the same alternate universe as your made up Gorbachev quote came from?

(And it's spelled Quisling, btw)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Friday, January 26, 2018, 22:10:12
You do not leave Soviet EU, Soviet EU leaves you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, January 26, 2018, 22:16:03
Eh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum,_1975

Did this not happen in the same alternate universe as your made up Gorbachev quote came from?

(And it's spelled Quisling, btw)

I believe he is probably suggesting that vote was for the Common Market and not what is now the EU.  That ignores the Treaty of Rome though - so if the UK voted based on some adverts, that's it's own fault.  The transition of it's structure was not voted on by any nation, but the original objectives made it clear this is where it was headed, so tough luck.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, January 26, 2018, 22:59:42
I believe he is probably suggesting that vote was for the Common Market and not what is now the EU.  That ignores the Treaty of Rome though - so if the UK voted based on some adverts, that's it's own fault.  The transition of it's structure was not voted on by any nation, but the original objectives made it clear this is where it was headed, so tough luck.
Given that he seems to think one of the biggest free market experiments the world has ever seen is a communist plot, I suspect he doesn't know what he's suggesting, he's just parroting whatever shite he's picked up from InfoWars or some such. Although tbf I suspect Paul Watson at least does actually know how to spell Quisling. What with him being on the same side and all


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, January 26, 2018, 23:20:00
The EU is as neoliberal as they come, look what they did to Greece when the Greeks voted against austerity. Couldn't be further from communism unless it went full fascism.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, January 26, 2018, 23:29:38
The EU is as neoliberal as they come, look what they did to Greece when the Greeks voted against austerity. Couldn't be further from communism unless it went full fascism.
Ah, but in the mirror world of the new right, they're all the same thing EU=communism=fascism=Islam. Everyone's a fascist apart from the fascists, according to the fascists.

EDIT: didn't mean to imply Sir Red Ken is a fascist, btw. Just a bit credulous, maybe, in where he gets his info from


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, January 27, 2018, 07:43:11
It seems that the EU is communist and also fascist and also that the UK is fighting on the beaches etc as it is on the brink of becoming some sort of feudal vassal state.

yeh, sure.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, January 27, 2018, 11:12:54
Ah, but in the mirror world of the new right, they're all the same thing EU=communism=fascism=Islam. Everyone's a fascist apart from the fascists, according to the fascists.

EDIT: didn't mean to imply Sir Red Ken is a fascist, btw. Just a bit credulous, maybe, in where he gets his info from
I'm not a fascist and my family is mixed race.However I'm against political extremists as history has shown us the damage they do. I don't follow info wars or take advice from Tony (weapons of mass destruction) Blair or Multi Millionaire Richard Branson who wants us to live under the yoke of the EU while he doesn't. Most of the people who are in politics and are rabbid remain are on the eu payrole, which is funded by us. I worked for a well know tea company who transfered my job to Poland, like fishing, coal, steel and many other industries my job was lost because of the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, January 27, 2018, 11:16:17
It seems that the EU is communist and also fascist and also that the UK is fighting on the beaches etc as it is on the brink of becoming some sort of feudal vassal state.

yeh, sure.

The new Defence Secretary, thinks Russia is about to launch a cyber attack on the UK, which will lead to thousands and thousands of deaths. 

It might be coincidence that his warning has been revealed at the same time as details of a previous indiscretion of infidelity to his wife has surfaced. Not good after Fallon went, suggesting that the Defence Sec should be someone of the highest probity, after he was found to be a serial groper.

I'd like to know what he's going to do about  :hmmm: 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, January 27, 2018, 12:13:03
Apologies for sharing the quote which started this all off, I never expected it all to go all tin foil hat as quickly as it did....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, January 27, 2018, 15:47:32
Apologies for sharing the quote which started this all off, I never expected it all to go all tin foil hat as quickly as it did....
I've tried to keep this going for you, I've even put my Tin hat on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, January 27, 2018, 17:57:58
I've tried to keep this going for you, I've even put my Tin foil hat on.

Do you ever take it off  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, January 27, 2018, 19:29:49
The new Defence Secretary, thinks Russia is about to launch a cyber attack on the UK, which will lead to thousands and thousands of deaths. 

It might be coincidence that his warning has been revealed at the same time as details of a previous indiscretion of infidelity to his wife has surfaced.
More likely to do with the budget review. Of course the Russians are planning for such an attack on the UK (he said they were planning to attack our infrastructure, not necessarily a cyber attack). As are our military planning such an attack on them. At least I bloody hope they are. Militaries are supposed to plan for such scenarios, it's their job.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, January 27, 2018, 20:31:52
Do you ever take it off  :hmmm:
Yes when I'm reading the David Icke Forum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, January 28, 2018, 02:10:33
Yes when I'm reading the David Icke Forum.

 :)

What happened to Ray Stubbs  :hmmm: hope his disappearance wasn't down to Icke.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, January 28, 2018, 09:39:59
I think for some people, communism is just a synonym for bad without really understanding what it is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, January 28, 2018, 16:10:52
I think for some people, communism is just a synonym for bad without really understanding what it is.

I suspect that fascism is the same as I have had some hardliner brexiteers telling me today that the EU is fascist on another forum I frequent....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, January 28, 2018, 20:31:47
I think for some people, communism is just a synonym for bad without really understanding what it is.
Its responsible for the death of millions of people, that's what it is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, January 28, 2018, 20:37:02
Its responsible for the death of millions of people, that's what it is.
So it's like cars then? Or flu?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, January 28, 2018, 21:01:03
Or democracy, even?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, January 28, 2018, 21:14:14
So it's like cars then? Or flu?
No


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, January 29, 2018, 08:39:56
Its responsible for the death of millions of people, that's what it is.
And actually, not very much like the EU at all?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, February 21, 2018, 13:46:06
https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/966290767668039681

This is extremely enjoyable from all sides. Particularly the bit in the middle where the Labour guy decides inexplicably to step in whilst the minister desperately tries to avoid libelling anyone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, February 21, 2018, 14:56:34
https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/966290767668039681

This is extremely enjoyable from all sides. Particularly the bit in the middle where the Labour guy decides inexplicably to step in whilst the minister desperately tries to avoid libelling anyone.

I don't understand it.  Would a summary in old fashioned English be possible  :hmmm:

Ah, got it now.... it's a vid clip, I thought it was something to do with the twaddle underneath.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, February 21, 2018, 15:11:17
Just watch the video Reg, ignore the comments.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, February 21, 2018, 15:18:48
Just watch the video Reg, ignore the comments.

So Tory Brexit minister, being economical with the actualite, who'd have thought it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, February 21, 2018, 16:03:58
So caught up in party tribalism he refuses to condemn a proven, outright lie. Impressive.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, February 21, 2018, 16:40:02
So caught up in party tribalism he refuses to condemn a proven, outright lie. Impressive.

This is the start of the campaigning for the local elections.  Not having any noticeable strategy, the Tories and their mouthpieces in the right wing media, fall back on the tried and trusted, lies and smears of the opposition.   It's fair enough, people don't have to believe it, but sadly they do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Wednesday, February 21, 2018, 17:10:49
I think for some people, communism is just a synonym for bad without really understanding what it is.

Communism has proven it doesn’t work, in fact it is responsible for the death and direct oppression of millions. It’s ideological fantasy pushed by the work shy. My favourite quote from a communist.. “they (the government) pretend to pay us, so we pretend to work”


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, February 21, 2018, 18:16:31
Communism has proven it doesn’t work,

And yet the Tories have given the nod for the Communist run CGN  (China General Nuclear).... to build a nuclear power station in Swindon's neighbouring county and downwind too boot.  It had better work....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Wednesday, February 21, 2018, 19:13:20
China is a capitalist state with communist roots. Without capitalism, China would be incapable of the boom it has seen recently.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/and-finally/is-china-actually-a-communist-country-36243236.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, February 23, 2018, 11:34:24
Afraid I'm not really going to add much to the political discourse in this thread today...but isn't this the most punchable face you've ever seen?  You know the one I mean.

I'd challenge anyone to find a more punchable face.  (You won't.)

(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2018/02/23/TELEMMGLPICT000155306438_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqpVlberWd9EgFPZtcLiMQfyf2A9a6I9YchsjMeADBa08.jpeg?imwidth=1400)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, February 23, 2018, 12:24:59
Rees-Mogg has a fairly punchable face, but not quite in the same league as twat face there.

Mind you, Rees-Mogg looks the type to cry if you take his Perrier water off him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, February 23, 2018, 12:30:46
Rees-Mogg has a fairly punchable face, but not quite in the same league as twat face there.

Mind you, Rees-Mogg looks the type to cry if you take his Perrier water off him.

TBF to Jacob, he did say when getting a bit of stick from some student types recently, that he's a weed.

It requires self restraint, but in the present climate I don't think we should encourage violence as a political tool.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, February 23, 2018, 12:34:16
Rees-Mogg has a fairly punchable face, but not quite in the same league as twat face there.

Mind you, Rees-Mogg looks the type to cry if you take his Perrier water off him.
I know Rees-Mogg well and believe me he wouldn't cry, whats more he's very proud of his country, unlike those who spy against it. Hes also fathered quite a brood so he could be the other prolific striker the Town are looking for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, February 23, 2018, 12:38:58
Hes also fathered quite a brood

He certainly knows lots of cunts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Friday, February 23, 2018, 12:41:38
Afraid I'm not really going to add much to the political discourse in this thread today...but isn't this the most punchable face you've ever seen?  You know the one I mean.

I'd challenge anyone to find a more punchable face.  (You won't.)

(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2018/02/23/TELEMMGLPICT000155306438_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqpVlberWd9EgFPZtcLiMQfyf2A9a6I9YchsjMeADBa08.jpeg?imwidth=1400)

Karl Pilkington in the green tie?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, February 23, 2018, 12:45:18
I know Rees-Mogg well and believe me he wouldn't cry, whats more he's very proud of his country, unlike those who spy against it. Hes also fathered quite a brood so he could be the other prolific striker the Town are looking for.

Six kids. He should start thinking about the planet.

Replica shirts might be very expensive with the names on the back.

Sixtus Dominic Boniface Christopher
Alfred Wulfric Leyson Pius King
Anselm Charles Fitzwilliam
Thomas Wentworth Somerset Dunstan
Peter Theodore Alphege

And Mary.

All packed off to be looked after by nanny.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 23, 2018, 12:46:48
Afraid I'm not really going to add much to the political discourse in this thread today...but isn't this the most punchable face you've ever seen?  You know the one I mean.

I'd challenge anyone to find a more punchable face.  (You won't.)

(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2018/02/23/TELEMMGLPICT000155306438_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqpVlberWd9EgFPZtcLiMQfyf2A9a6I9YchsjMeADBa08.jpeg?imwidth=1400)

I assume that this was just before they passed around the fruit bowl for the car keys.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 23, 2018, 12:52:55
I know Rees-Mogg well and believe me he wouldn't cry, whats more he's very proud of his country, unlike those who spy against it.

Sadly people would believe the earth is flat if certain parts of the media told them...

Setting aside the total nonsense of the story (neither the Czechs nor Stasi have a file on Corbyn, which they have confirmed), the only 'source' is someone who even the Czechs (his own side) confirm is a liar and fantasist.

Possibly of more interest and relevance (considering that Corbyn was a back bencher that even his party didn't think much of in the 80's when the alleged actions occurred) are the actions of our Foreign Secretary and his present 'friendship' with someone presently suspected as being a Russian Agent or maybe not as the right wing press and BBC seem to have kept a lid on the story.....

http://uk.businessinsider.com/suspe...red-with-his-good-friend-boris-johnson-2018-2

Or the various meetings between Conservative MP's and parties directly named and linked to the Mueller investigation into Russian political interference in the US,

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/04/brexit-ministers-spy-russia-uk-brexit

So an accusation against a lowly Labour MP from 30 odd years ago with very little evidence to back it up, or multiple photographic evidence of a senior cabinet member having meets now with parties suspected of spying.... Which one is more suspicious - discuss

I am sure its not remotely suspicious that this has now come up 30 years after the event when things are going badly for the ruling party.... anyone would think there were local elections coming up and the Tories are getting jumpy and have sent out the right wing media attack dogs..


Note - I confess I copied and pasted this from where I wrote it in response to similar stuff!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, February 23, 2018, 13:28:52
I know Rees-Mogg well and believe me he wouldn't cry, whats more he's very proud of his country, unlike those who spy against it.

No he isn't.  He's an anachronism, and he's proud of what his country was 200 yrs ago...and now he's trying to take us back there.

He has nothing to offer the working people of this country.  At all.

Six kids. He should start thinking about the planet.

Replica shirts might be very expensive with the names on the back.

Sixtus Dominic Boniface Christopher
Alfred Wulfric Leyson Pius King
Anselm Charles Fitzwilliam
Thomas Wentworth Somerset Dunstan
Peter Theodore Alphege

And Mary.

All packed off to be looked after by nanny.

At least if the next one's a boy, present form suggests he'll call it Septimus.  Good Swindon Town connection there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, February 23, 2018, 13:43:57
Rees Mogg is an utter cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, February 23, 2018, 14:04:37
I think the issue is that who does offer anything to the working man. I'm struggling to think of one politician.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Friday, February 23, 2018, 14:21:39
The problem is there isn’t any decent opposition to the conservatives. Labour under Jezzer are a farce, a complete freak show; certainly not the Labour Party many of us have voted for in the past.
I would like a change of Tory leader to take us through Brexit, we need someone with a back bone. Personally would like Jacob Rees-Mogg, and just the fact he would get so many extreme lefties hot under the colour is a bonus.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 23, 2018, 14:27:31
I think the issue is that who does offer anything to the working man. I'm struggling to think of one politician.

Well he is fighting against the 'metropolitan elite' so its either him, Gove or Johnson - JRM has skillfully managed to keep quiet how much he has to gain personally from Brexit.

Politics is shot to shit in this country, I know who I would vote for if there was an election tomorrow, but it would be a tactical vote to keep someone out rather than a positive vote for change....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, February 23, 2018, 15:36:33
Well he is fighting against the 'metropolitan elite' so its either him, Gove or Johnson - JRM has skillfully managed to keep quiet how much he has to gain personally from Brexit.

Politics is shot to shit in this country, I know who I would vote for if there was an election tomorrow, but it would be a tactical vote to keep someone out rather than a positive vote for change....
There are many like the BBC who've kept quite about how much they'd keep receiving if wed stay in the EU. Mendlsom,Cleg both on eye watering pensions. Those trying to overturn the vote are only interested in their own self enrichment. Tax payers money redirected into their bank account via the EU. Westminster and the political parties don't care about your average british person, they learnt long ago that they can be replaced. Sadly and despite this obvious fact, the voting public still vote to maintain the stats quo, in some kind of hive thinking, stockholm syndrome, media brain washing, Its what I've though/heard  so I'll pass it off as gospel, rhetoric.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 23, 2018, 16:03:29
There are many like the BBC who've kept quite about how much they'd keep receiving if wed stay in the EU. Mendlsom,Cleg both on eye watering pensions. Those trying to overturn the vote are only interested in their own self enrichment. Tax payers money redirected into their bank account via the EU. Westminster and the political parties don't care about your average british person, they learnt long ago that they can be replaced. Sadly and despite this obvious fact, the voting public still vote to maintain the stats quo, in some kind of hive thinking, stockholm syndrome, media brain washing, Its what I've though/heard  so I'll pass it off as gospel, rhetoric.

Eh????  :hmmm:

Please explain....

a) what monies will the BBC keep receiving if we remain in the EU?
b) I assume that you mean Mandelson and Clegg, you do realise that us leaving the EU has no bearing on their pensions and those pension liabilities are what we will be funding via the c.£40bn at least that Mother Theresa has agreed to pay, so actually we the taxpayer are paying whatever;
c) The Government at Westminster are trying (and failing thankfully) to pass through all manner of draconian measures to limit the sovereignty of parliament (Henry VIII powers and their extensive use of SI's), who know where this will lead on the path to Brexit Utopia;
d) Apologies I must have missed the 'obvious fact'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, February 23, 2018, 16:19:36
Eh????  :hmmm:

Please explain....

a) what monies will the BBC keep receiving if we remain in the EU?
b) I assume that you mean Mandelson and Clegg, you do realise that us leaving the EU has no bearing on their pensions and those pension liabilities are what we will be funding via the c.£40bn at least that Mother Theresa has agreed to pay, so actually we the taxpayer are paying whatever;
c) The Government at Westminster are trying (and failing thankfully) to pass through all manner of draconian measures to limit the sovereignty of parliament (Henry VIII powers and their extensive use of SI's), who know where this will lead on the path to Brexit Utopia;
d) Apologies I must have missed the 'obvious fact'

Here you are and there's plenty more articles which I'm sure are all fake...https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2014/02/the-millions-in-eu-funding-the-bbc-tried-to-hide/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 23, 2018, 16:44:30
Sadly and despite this obvious fact, the voting public still vote to maintain the stats quo, in some kind of hive thinking, stockholm syndrome, media brain washing, Its what I've though/heard  so I'll pass it off as gospel, rhetoric.
Erm, except they didn't, did they? Which is why we are discussing Brexit. Rees-Mogg is a self-serving gobshite btw.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, February 23, 2018, 16:58:47
Don't you mean he's a bigger self serving gobshite than most other MPs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 23, 2018, 17:02:02
Don't you mean he's a bigger self serving gobshite than most other MPs.
Yes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, February 23, 2018, 17:13:48
Another voice of reason with no vested interest..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1365120/RICHARD-KAY-Heseltines-900-000-EU-handout.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 23, 2018, 17:14:33
Here you are and there's plenty more articles which I'm sure are all fake...https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2014/02/the-millions-in-eu-funding-the-bbc-tried-to-hide/

Which makes them having Farage on 35 times (including next week) in the same time that the Greens have been on once (and they have an MP) a rather foot shooting exercise, and answers to the other points?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, February 23, 2018, 17:20:20
Another voice of reason with no vested interest..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1365120/RICHARD-KAY-Heseltines-900-000-EU-handout.html

I can't read that and doubt that I want to, but:

Did you really just use the terms 'voice of reason', and 'no vested interest', when linking to a daily mail article?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Friday, February 23, 2018, 17:22:53
I can't read that and doubt that I want to, but:

Did you really just use the terms 'voice of reason', and 'no vested interest', when linking to a daily mail article?

Show us a ‘news organisation’ that you can link with those words?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 23, 2018, 17:23:59
Another voice of reason with no vested interest..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1365120/RICHARD-KAY-Heseltines-900-000-EU-handout.html

You are taking the piss now, or just very ironically referenced trolling...

So.... you have linked to a story in the hard line Brexit bleating Daily Mail, now I am not sure if you are aware (I suspect not) that the editor of the EU hating Daily Mail is a chap called Paul Dacre, who despite his many protestations about the EU and in this case subsidies has received... wait for it...

EU subsidies of at least £460,000 since 2011

Oh and the Daily Mail might just be such a cheerleader for Brexit as it is owned by an offshore Trust (so avoids UK tax, they won't be contributing to Mandelson's pension!) a tax avoidance process which, yeah you have guessed the EU are seeking to prevent - so no vested interests there.

As you bought up subsidies lets look at James Dyson, a strident Brexiteer and all round good egg for Britain (although possibly not so much as to keep his production here, nah he took it abroad!). now he received £1.6m in 2016, perhaps its now becoming clear while oily Gove is now suddenly so keen to confirm that subsidies will remain when we have gone.

But please keep banging the drum for the real elite, they need cannon fodder to get the message across.







Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, February 23, 2018, 17:25:11
Show us a ‘news organisation’ that you can link with those words?

I can't. They're all cunts so I wouldn't do such a ridiculous thing. Do you know what a tu quoque fallacy is?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 23, 2018, 17:25:45
Show us a ‘news organisation’ that you can link with those words?

The Evening Advertiser!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, February 23, 2018, 17:26:58
The Evening Advertiser!

 :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 23, 2018, 17:27:15
I can't. They're all cunts so I wouldn't do such a ridiculous thing. Do you know what a tu quoque fallacy is?
Isn't it essentially a clever way of saying straw man?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, February 23, 2018, 17:29:12
Show us a ‘news organisation’ that you can link with those words?
The ever reliable Huffingtonpost or BuzzFeed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, February 23, 2018, 17:35:30
Isn't it essentially a clever way of saying straw man?

No, it's not a strawman. A strawman is misrepresenting your opponent's arguments and using it against them. e.g.: "I don't think Power's that bad". To which a strawman reply would be: "Oh, so you're happy to be in L2 then?"

Tu Quoque is basically somebody saying "what about you then?" when they are challenged on something as if it excuses them. e.g: "The mail is shit", to which a tu quoque reply would be "What about the Guardian then?" It's a fallacy because although the Guardian is, indeed, shit, that doesn't address the claim that the Mail is shit.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, February 23, 2018, 17:38:24
You are taking the piss now, or just very ironically referenced trolling...

So.... you have linked to a story in the hard line Brexit bleating Daily Mail, now I am not sure if you are aware (I suspect not) that the editor of the EU hating Daily Mail is a chap called Paul Dacre, who despite his many protestations about the EU and in this case subsidies has received... wait for it...

EU subsidies of at least £460,000 since 2011

Oh and the Daily Mail might just be such a cheerleader for Brexit as it is owned by an offshore Trust (so avoids UK tax, they won't be contributing to Mandelson's pension!) a tax avoidance process which, yeah you have guessed the EU are seeking to prevent - so no vested interests there.

As you bought up subsidies lets look at James Dyson, a strident Brexiteer and all round good egg for Britain (although possibly not so much as to keep his production here, nah he took it abroad!). now he received £1.6m in 2016, perhaps its now becoming clear while oily Gove is now suddenly so keen to confirm that subsidies will remain when we have gone.

But please keep banging the drum for the real elite, they need cannon fodder to get the message across.







TBF to Dyson, he'll probably look favourably at Britain again, once all the worker's rights legislations are removed, and we can undercut  the Far East sweat shops.  Surely one of aims of hard Brexit...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 23, 2018, 18:02:54
I can't. They're all cunts so I wouldn't do such a ridiculous thing. Do you know what a tu quoque fallacy is?
Isn't it Rees-Mogg for "whataboutery"?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, February 23, 2018, 18:07:22
Isn't it Rees-Mogg for "whataboutery"?

In a nutshell. Yes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Friday, February 23, 2018, 18:09:37
No, it's not a strawman. A strawman is misrepresenting your opponent's arguments and using it against them. e.g.: "I don't think Power's that bad". To which a strawman reply would be: "Oh, so you're happy to be in L2 then?"

Tu Quoque is basically somebody saying "what about you then?" when they are challenged on something as if it excuses them. e.g: "The mail is shit", to which a tu quoque reply would be "What about the Guardian then?" It's a fallacy because although the Guardian is, indeed, shit, that doesn't address the claim that the Mail is shit.


in fairness it wasn’t the op that asked. You ridiculed a link to a news organisation, and my point was they all have their agenda biases. Objecting to the point made by the op may have been a better tactic


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, February 23, 2018, 18:15:53
in fairness it wasn’t the op that asked. You ridiculed a link to a news organisation, and my point was they all have their agenda biases. Objecting to the point made by the op may have been a better tactic

Wut?

I did object to his 'point', that's how this little dialogue started. I think everybody else got that clearly enough.

Quote
in fairness it wasn’t the op that asked.

I know. You did. And I responded accordingly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 26, 2018, 12:11:21
 So it looks like Labour are going for keeping the UK pretty much in the Customs Union.  Smart  move, should cause the fissures in the Tory Party to blow, and perhaps force a General Election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 26, 2018, 12:57:02
So it looks like Labour are going for keeping the UK pretty much in the Customs Union.  Smart  move, should cause the fissures in the Tory Party to blow, and perhaps force a General Election.
Smart move? Might not look like that to a substantial portion of the Labour core that voted for Brexit. Looks like a cynical political manoeuvre with no pretence at principle of the very kind the Corbynites (rightly) accuse the Blairites and Tories of


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 26, 2018, 14:16:39
Smart move? Might not look like that to a substantial portion of the Labour core that voted for Brexit. Looks like a cynical political manoeuvre with no pretence at principle of the very kind the Corbynites (rightly) accuse the Blairites and Tories of

Well we'll have to see how the Labour core vote reacts at an election.  I'm fairly sure at the time of the referendum, not too many were agonising about the finer points of tariff barriers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 26, 2018, 14:36:11
Well we'll have to see how the Labour core vote reacts at an election.  I'm fairly sure at the time of the referendum, not too many were agonising about the finer points of tariff barriers.
No, but I'm pretty sure when people voted to leave the EU, they voted to leave the whole kit and caboodle, not some kind of half in, half out hokey cokey. Whether they should have been agonising about the finer points (and whether that might perhaps have been mentioned in the debate instead of twattery on the side of buses) is another matter. This just smacks of the same old paternalistic "Well, you might have voted for X but we know what's best for you" that a lot of people were kicking off against in the first place


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 26, 2018, 14:41:17
No, but I'm pretty sure when people voted to leave the EU, they voted to leave the whole kit and caboodle, not some kind of half in, half out hokey cokey. Whether they should have been agonising about the finer points (and whether that might perhaps have been mentioned in the debate instead of twattery on the side of buses) is another matter. This just smacks of the same old paternalistic "Well, you might have voted for X but we know what's best for you" that a lot of people were kicking off against in the first place

But we are leaving the European Union... this is just about finding the least damaging way of doing it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, February 26, 2018, 14:54:21
May has hemmed herself in with her contradictory Single Market/Customs Union red lines and her GFA commitment to keeping an open border in Ireland.  An impossible nonsense borne of not having an agreed negotiating position virtually a full year after having triggered Art. 50.

Corbyn's Customs Union offering does indicate is that he has grasped an approach by which the UK might leave the EU which may also help keep the NI/Republic border open, per the Good Friday Agreement.

There is political calculation of course.  I'm sure this may entail a loss of some portion of the Labour core vote (those previously switching to UKIP?).

I have to say I am intrigued by Paul's reference to "principle" in this context.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, February 26, 2018, 15:01:13
No, but I'm pretty sure when people voted to leave the EU, they voted to leave the whole kit and caboodle, not some kind of half in, half out hokey cokey.
That may be your belief but the evidence is that you are wrong, very wrong

A survey shortly before Brexit found that 42% of Leave voters thought it would be reasonable for the Government to consider a Norway style option against 44% who thought otherwise.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 26, 2018, 15:19:59
I have to say I am intrigued by Paul's reference to "principle" in this context.
Just that of enacting the result of the referendum i.e. carrying out the will of the people as expressed in a democratic vote
That may be your belief but the evidence is that you are wrong, very wrong

A survey shortly before Brexit found that 42% of Leave voters thought it would be reasonable for the Government to consider a Norway style option against 44% who thought otherwise.
Hmm, fair enough then. My apologies to Mr Corbyn.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, February 26, 2018, 15:34:05
I voted to leave the whole kit and caboodle. From day 1 we should have said we're out and given people the certainty they wanted and planned accordingly. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 26, 2018, 16:00:22
I voted to leave the whole kit and caboodle. From day 1 we should have said we're out and given people the certainty they wanted and planned accordingly. 

Pretty much what happened, other than the planning bit....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Monday, February 26, 2018, 16:34:08
So it looks like Labour are going for keeping the UK pretty much in the Customs Union.  Smart  move, should cause the fissures in the Tory Party to blow, and perhaps force a General Election.

No it's bullshit. It's another example of the political class unable to comprehend how we have been governed for four and half decades and unable to discuss anything in a grown up way outside the very narrow confines of SW1 party politics.

The question of the customs union is perfectly simple. It's called a European Union Customs Union, as its name implies it only applies to EU member states, therefore as we are leaving the EU it means we are leaving the customs union. It's that simple. Not that it's a big deal, we can have a customs co-operation agreement by invoking a presumption of continuity and Robert's your avuncular relative.

The real issue is leaving the European Economic Area (known as the single market) This deals with non-tarriff barriers which is a far bigger problem and as Barnier noted only Mrs May chose to leave that, the UK in a referendum didn't. The single market and the EU being two entirely different concepts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 26, 2018, 16:35:40
That may be your belief but the evidence is that you are wrong, very wrong

A survey shortly before Brexit found that 42% of Leave voters thought it would be reasonable for the Government to consider a Norway style option against 44% who thought otherwise.




I think the fact that even the Tory cabinet seem to have no idea what they want 12 months after setting the clock ticking rather suggests that there is no coherent reason for voting to leave that everyone voted for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, February 26, 2018, 16:47:48
Corbyn would be in with the UKIP team if it was down to him, he is not a fan at all.  The Union's are most likely behind the Labour move here, having fallen in love with the EU once it became clear it was a useful vehicle to import European Labour laws.  They might not like other countries, but they liked the benefits of shorter working weeks, minimum wage etc.

The vote was simple - most of the 51% probably hate the EU having ANY power and wanted to stop foreigners moving over.  As it remains likely any attempt to remain in the Single Market will come with it's own requirements on Labour movement, that's a non-starter in my mind, it would undermine the reason for leaving.

Just get Out and take the medicine.

If the Country wants some pain, let it have it.  I give it about 2 years before the penny has dropped that it doesn't stop a Government continuing to allow non-EU immigrants in, probably in higher numbers initially.  If nothing else, it should make party politics fun to watch in the UK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Monday, February 26, 2018, 16:54:38

The vote was simple - most of the 51% probably hate the EU having ANY power and wanted to stop foreigners moving over.  As it remains likely any attempt to remain in the Single Market will come with it's own requirements on Labour movement, that's a non-starter in my mind, it would undermine the reason for leaving.


Polls and surveys before, during and after the referendum showed clearly that the overwhelming motive for leaving was based on the EU's lack of democracy. That has been very prevalent from the outset since 1973 and gained further traction in the '90s before the borders were "opened in 2004".

In addition remaining in the single market does allow us to suspend free movement under Article 112 and it's been done many times before not least by the EU Commission itself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, February 26, 2018, 16:56:44
Sovereignty followed by Immigration is what I got at the time.

Economical considerations was a reason for voting to stay.

Basically nobody voted to stay for the right reasons - being supportive of the EU's goals and aspirations.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, February 26, 2018, 17:12:36

If the Country wants some pain, let it have it.  I give it about 2 years before the penny has dropped that it doesn't stop a Government continuing to allow non-EU immigrants in, probably in higher numbers initially.  If nothing else, it should make party politics fun to watch in the UK.

This. So many people (that I've spoken to, who voted leave) seem to think that by separation/leaving that immigration will disappear! The fact is, it's really a non-issue. I did some research about a year ago on UNHCR figures and advice from a Lawyer friend who works in this very area. The numbers and the costs is negligible to something like less than 2p per year, per UK taxpayer, to cover the cost of any miniscule benefit someone MAY receive. I used to call it the Coffee cup theory (ie, anyone whoever throws their coffee/tea change on the floor every now and again 2p/5p, can't really complain about the cost of immigration). It's a diversionary social "problem" to stop joe public concentrating on other more serious things like TPP, which no doubt we resurface after all this.

The scaremongering into belief that "every" asylum seeker is a Muslim and therefore a terrorist is ridiculous. Again it's targeted hate to distract the public. Before September 2001 I don't remember people being afraid of Muslims or trying to stop people from wearing what they want. I thought, our nation (even the world) was more intelligent than this. I thought, we had got past silly, sheep mentality stigma. Of course, we all know what thought did. Unfortunately herd/pack mentality, which is very much ingrained within our evolutionary development, means there will always be an element of; Monkey see, monkey do (or chimp see, chimp do to be more accurate).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 26, 2018, 17:37:35
This. So many people (that I've spoken to, who voted leave) seem to think that by separation/leaving that immigration will disappear! The fact is, it's really a non-issue. I did some research about a year ago on UNHCR figures and advice from a Lawyer friend who works in this very area. The numbers and the costs is negligible to something like less than 2p per year, per UK taxpayer, to cover the cost of any miniscule benefit someone MAY receive. I used to call it the Coffee cup theory (ie, anyone whoever throws their coffee/tea change on the floor every now and again 2p/5p, can't really complain about the cost of immigration). It's a diversionary social "problem" to stop joe public concentrating on other more serious things like TPP, which no doubt we resurface after all this.

The scaremongering into belief that "every" asylum seeker is a Muslim and therefore a terrorist is ridiculous. Again it's targeted hate to distract the public. Before September 2001 I don't remember people being afraid of Muslims or trying to stop people from wearing what they want. I thought, our nation (even the world) was more intelligent than this. I thought, we had got past silly, sheep mentality stigma. Of course, we all know what thought did. Unfortunately herd/pack mentality, which is very much ingrained within our evolutionary development, means there will always be an element of; Monkey see, monkey do (or chimp see, chimp do to be more accurate).

So do you not stop to think that a lawyer friend who works in immigration might have a vested interest in immigration  :hmmm:

Doubts about Muslims in the UK really started with the fatwa on Salman Rushdie in 89.  Book burnings in Bradford and inflammatory statements by UK imans, were not cricket. 

The catholic church weren't too keen on Life of Brian, 10 years earlier but there weren't Papal calls to assassinate Michael Palin.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, February 26, 2018, 18:24:10
So do you not stop to think that a lawyer friend who works in immigration might have a vested interest in immigration  :hmmm:

Doubts about Muslims in the UK really started with the fatwa on Salman Rushdie in 89.  Book burnings in Bradford and inflammatory statements by UK imans, were not cricket. 

The catholic church weren't too keen on Life of Brian, 10 years earlier but there weren't Papal calls to assassinate Michael Palin.

So you're quick to assume which side of immigration my friend works in? You're better than that Reg.

Yes although I was pretty young then, the Salman Rushdie affair was quite a starter but I think we all know after "September 11th" there became a media frenzy on isolating anyone with a combined disposition of a beard and different coloured pigment. Especially within the western world. Things are so ridiculous now that even when I grow my beard to certain lengths I get sideways glances in pubs and at train stations and airports. That could however, be be also to do with looking like I've just crawled out of a hedge  :pint:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 26, 2018, 18:58:16
So you're quick to assume which side of immigration my friend works in? You're better than that Reg.

Yes although I was pretty young then, the Salman Rushdie affair was quite a starter but I think we all know after "September 11th" there became a media frenzy on isolating anyone with a combined disposition of a beard and different coloured pigment. Especially within the western world. Things are so ridiculous now that even when I grow my beard to certain lengths I get sideways glances in pubs and at train stations and airports. That could however, be be also to do with looking like I've just crawled out of a hedge  :pint:

No assumption about sides, just when presented with evidence even if anecdotal, I like to put it to scrutiny of bias, before giving it due consideration.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 12:37:32
This. So many people (that I've spoken to, who voted leave) seem to think that by separation/leaving that immigration will disappear! The fact is, it's really a non-issue. I did some research about a year ago on UNHCR figures and advice from a Lawyer friend who works in this very area. The numbers and the costs is negligible to something like less than 2p per year, per UK taxpayer, to cover the cost of any miniscule benefit someone MAY receive. I used to call it the Coffee cup theory (ie, anyone whoever throws their coffee/tea change on the floor every now and again 2p/5p, can't really complain about the cost of immigration). It's a diversionary social "problem" to stop joe public concentrating on other more serious things like TPP, which no doubt we resurface after all this.

The scaremongering into belief that "every" asylum seeker is a Muslim and therefore a terrorist is ridiculous. Again it's targeted hate to distract the public. Before September 2001 I don't remember people being afraid of Muslims or trying to stop people from wearing what they want. I thought, our nation (even the world) was more intelligent than this. I thought, we had got past silly, sheep mentality stigma. Of course, we all know what thought did. Unfortunately herd/pack mentality, which is very much ingrained within our evolutionary development, means there will always be an element of; Monkey see, monkey do (or chimp see, chimp do to be more accurate).

My wife's family are from West Yorkshire and I know for a fact that many in her wider family voted to leave purely on the basis that they seem tho think it will mean fewer brown faces around.

Likewise isn't it fairly well evidenced that Tax take from immigration vastly exceeds any costs from benefits that they may receive, indeed the idea that EU immigrants come over here to just claim benefits is a complete nonsense as the governments own rules prevent it?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 12:51:59
My wife's family are from West Yorkshire and I know for a fact that many in her wider family voted to leave purely on the basis that they seem tho think it will mean fewer brown faces around.
Well it may well do as fewer people will be able to afford to go abroad on holiday :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 12:59:16
My wife's family are from West Yorkshire and I know for a fact that many in her wider family voted to leave purely on the basis that they seem tho think it will mean fewer brown faces around.

Of course the irony here is that even Farage pointed out that EU immigrants would be replaced by more immigrants from Africa and the sub continent.  It may have been a cynical ploy to pick up the ethnic leave vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 13:24:53
Of course the irony here is that even Farage pointed out that EU immigrants would be replaced by more immigrants from Africa and the sub continent.  It may have been a cynical ploy to pick up the ethnic leave vote.

This is happening already. Last week on the radio was mentioned that immigration into the UK from EU nations was down, EU citizens leaving the UK was up, non EU immigration into the UK up. All since the Brexit referendum results.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 14:41:21
My wife's family are from West Yorkshire and I know for a fact that many in her wider family voted to leave purely on the basis that they seem tho think it will mean fewer brown faces around.

Likewise isn't it fairly well evidenced that Tax take from immigration vastly exceeds any costs from benefits that they may receive, indeed the idea that EU immigrants come over here to just claim benefits is a complete nonsense as the governments own rules prevent it?



Yep, the tax "exchange" by far exceeds from immigration. Of course we aren't naive to think there are no bad people in the world. There are, and yes some will, shock horror come from immigration. The trouble is, it's easy to paint a picture of "big bad stranger from strange soil". Many of my Mother and Father's family (my aunts and uncles, et al) while all quite genuine people, have an underlying touch of racism, which I believe resonates with a lot of people across the county. It's totally unreasonable obviously, because not one person born into the world has any control of where they happen to be born, none of us. It's for that reason I can't understand why people are the way they are towards someone who looks a bit "different". It's bloody childish. I loved it when the recent news about Cheddar Man came out.

 There are never many mainstream headlines about immigrant professionals, that have had to retrain here at cost, because for some reason a Doctor or Engineer from Non-EU countries and some selected EU countries aren't as clever or good at that role. However if you're from US, Canada, AUS, NZ (which are all Non-EU let's remember) etc you can transfer your professional skills. I understand certain accreditation has to be met and that is the norm for Doctors even changing role in the U.K. In the main it's highly discriminatory to say, an Iranian professional who could have 10 years experience in their field, and is subsequently not even recognised as being a skilled worker. Generally the time when it is vaguely recognised is when a foreign student comes to study in the UK, through overseas programs. Many people, when talking about immigration, don't realise that the UK also sends our students on 1/2/3 year placements, working in another country. I believe it's to enable future talent sharing as well as getting ironically, better training than they would receive in the UK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 15:00:31
I loved it when the recent news about Cheddar Man came out.

Yet no mention of how the builders of Silbury/Avebury disappeared from the DNA record to be replaced by "Beaker" immigrants.  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 15:22:09
Most Brexiteers I speak to couldn't care less about immigration. Its a non issue for me coming from parents who were economic migrants from Ireland. I don't need convincing the majority are hard working and make this country a more diverse and interesting place to live. And even if they aren't then we've got enough of our own indigenous idle, feckless individuals, its not an immigrant exclusive club.
What I do object to though is an "open door" policy for hundreds of millions that we can't do anything about regardless of colour or religion.
Immigration may well be the thing that makes the EU come unstuck. Merkel made a big faux pass with the 1m or 1.5m. Italy looks as though its had enough and when the EU forces (against the governments wishes) the V4 countries to accept migrants all hell will break lose. I also pity the migrants who will be forced to live in those countries. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 15:29:38
Yet no mention of how the builders of Silbury/Avebury disappeared from the DNA record to be replaced by "Beaker" immigrants.  :hmmm:

Admittedly that is another story but you've extracted my reference out of context. I was pointing out my personal joy when certainly family members (with racist undertones) were pressed on this area and they couldn't answer without sounding ridiculous. To quote 'yeah but...he...might not have actually been born here.' or from an old work colleague, i'm not joking Reg 'Oh yeah, well if he was black then how come it took him so long to get here ey?'

I'll happily have a conversation with you about archaeological history, but in all honesty my reference was in response to Horlock and mirroring the behaviours of people in his extended family, similar to mine.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 15:41:17
Most Brexiteers I speak to couldn't care less about immigration. Its a non issue for me
What I do object to though is an "open door" policy for hundreds of millions that we can't do anything about regardless of colour or religion.
Erm, that does sound remarkably like your problem with the EU was, precisely, immigration.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 15:50:49
It's like starting a sentence "I'm not racist, but..."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 15:52:01
Erm, that does sound remarkably like your problem with the EU was, precisely, immigration.

And given our Colonial past, it is precisely the sort of immigration we will "see" more of once we leave the EU.  Namely because we will see less direct EU citizens coming over, and those that remain will come from the sub continent through the Commonwealth as well as us having to deal directly with the UN when it comes to Asylum seekers/refugees.  It is entirely feasible that overall immigration reduces slightly, but that we "see" it even more precisely because the traditionally white immigrants won't be coming over.

The debate on the economics is not an easy one though - there is indeed evidence to suggest that right now the UK benefits financially overall - that is the net financial contribution to the economy is higher than any associated costs through welfare, NHS, local services etc.  However, that is because we are attracting economic migrants - the risk of course is that they too grow old and remain in the country, merely pushing back a cost to the country for later generations again.  You still need to consider some long term costs and begin planning for them.  What has certainly happened is that the boon in economic migrants has helped push that debate back a few years and create some breathing space.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 16:01:34
Nope its not immigration. Its the control element. You can stop the open door policy but keep immigration as it is - if you choose to do so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 16:02:06
Erm, that does sound remarkably like your problem with the EU was, precisely, immigration.

All the Brexiteers I know, and because of my age cohort that's quite a lot, did so mainly because of s desire to get immigration down.  The economic arguments not really playing but the cultural aspect being a primary concern, even many of the second generation offspring of immigrants voted leave.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 16:09:09
Nope its not immigration. Its the control element. You can stop the open door policy but keep immigration as it is - if you choose to do so.
OK, so your concern is control of immigration. I understand you're not anti-immigrant but nonetheless you are saying immigration is a key issue that made you vote leave aren't you really?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 16:16:01
OK, so your concern is control of immigration. I understand you're not anti-immigrant but nonetheless you are saying immigration is a key issue that made you vote leave aren't you really?

Control of immigration is something our government has mainly failed upon very little to do with the EU, the tools are there they have just completely failed to use them. Compare our method with Belgium....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 16:16:13
Nope its not immigration. Its the control element. You can stop the open door policy but keep immigration as it is - if you choose to do so.

The problem for Brexiteers is that immigration is more or less impossible to control.  For that to happen we'd need to leave the ECHR, which we helped to set up post war in 1949 as a a bulwark against fascism.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 17:58:16
OK, so your concern is control of immigration. I understand you're not anti-immigrant but nonetheless you are saying immigration is a key issue that made you vote leave aren't you really?
I'm probably not expressing it well. Immigration is a total side issue for me. It's about having more control over our own affairs. If we fuck up then we do but it will be down to us not being part of a collective. As already said immigration is fucked regardless. That ship has sailed. But by having greater control of our own destiny we could do something about it if we had a desire to do so. Currently we can't do too much as it's an open door to EU people. I personally would put immigration way down my list of priorities. If we need cheap labour I couldn't give a fuck if they're from poland, Peru or Gabon or anywhere else.
First would be to ensure we can make decisions of our own. Second would be trade deals.
I don't think it will be an easy ride but I do think it's the right thing to do. You probably won't be able to judge for several years.
My major worry with the EU is the united states of Europe that junker said will never happen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 18:23:56
I'm with chalk. I voted to leave because the end game for Europe is political union. Thank you all who voted the same way. We got out while we could. If that means some personal financial pain for me or my country then it will be worth it.

That and those fucking annoying French sevens with the line through them to distinguish them from their dodgy ones. Why don't they write numbers like they are on our keyboards?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 18:46:55
You do realise the French will continue to use odd sevens!  In fact, don't they have their own keyboards?  Over here they have the " and @ signs swapped as well as not having a key for Pounds.

Voting OUT because you do not want to be part of a Political Union is indeed a very good reason to vote OUT and is why it should have been more than 51%.  Voting to stay just on Economical reasoning will have led to years more petty squabbling.  Too many people stuck on Nationalism for me though, I'd clearly be IN, but I know that is not the majority view of the Country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 19:06:57
You do realise the French will continue to use odd sevens!  In fact, don't they have their own keyboards?  Over here they have the " and @ signs swapped as well as not having a key for Pounds.

Voting OUT because you do not want to be part of a Political Union is indeed a very good reason to vote OUT and is why it should have been more than 51%.  Voting to stay just on Economical reasoning will have led to years more petty squabbling.  Too many people stuck on Nationalism for me though, I'd clearly be IN, but I know that is not the majority view of the Country.

I reckon only Red Frog will have an Azerty keyboard.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 19:31:10
I actually do the French dodgy sevens to distinguish them from my dodgy ones. Does this mean I'm actually an EU collaborator


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 19:38:11
I reckon only Red Frog will have an Azerty keyboard.

I sometimes use an AZERTY on my phone keypad when typing to french friends. That's only so I can ensure when certain words need an accent or not. Also, I use dodgy sevens because being a left hander, growing up a maths teacher suggested I put a strike through my sevens and underline my ones. It stuck but I still think they did for their own purposes to ensure they could decipher my numbers. As it happens, I do like to see a dodgy seven  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 19:39:05
I actually do the French dodgy sevens to distinguish them from my dodgy ones. Does this mean I'm actually an EU collaborator

See, we can all get along  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 03:06:10
Seeing pictures of Best, Keegan, Dalglish etc wearing shirts bearing a dodgy seven on the back would put me at sixes and...well.

Off-piste: I like the fact that Usian Bolt will be wearing number 9.58 in a forthcoming charity match.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 08:14:32
Oh, this in out subject is a rich vein, infact it’s like being a vampire at a blood donor session.

I voted out. My father was an immigrant. So for me the issue was not focused around that subject at all as there are many, many more topics to look at that are much more important IMHO.

On a foot note two things stick in my mind as being comments from two completely diverse individuals as you could get. One a business man I knew for about four years some 15 years ago, (his company was next to mine) and the other my eldest child.
Th business man said to me and remember this is 15 years ago and I quote “Germany lost both wars but they intend to win the peace”. I now have a greater understanding of what he said and why. I must state though my aversion of the EU goes back way before then and is not a recent manifestation. My eldest who graduated the summer of the referendum from uni with a degree in both French and German language. Accused me of all manner of betrayals. So I challenged him on where he was going to find work, France or Germany? Neither, was his reply. Now his course was four years of which the third academic year was split 2/3 living in Paris and 1/3 in Düsseldorf. He said if you take the best bits if France, Germany and the U.K. and combine them you’d have in his opininion utopia so on balance he’s taken work here in the U.K.!

Out of France and Germany he’d have chosen Germany but his stronger language was French. Now the dust has settled he has a greater understanding of my position on the EU and kind of admitted that he was a little caught up in the uni, young person, Armageddon bubble v old racist levers like me apparently that pervaded at the time.

Cameron did the right thing by lancing a festering boil that was the in-out question. Many, many older people had come to realise that they were in effect lied to by the Heath and subsequent governments as to which direction the ‘Common Market’ was going. Only recently the Rome treaty which the them PM Brown signed by sneaking in a few days after all the major European leaders had signed together in a fanfare was a tightening of the EU federalist grip on everyone and everything in the ‘club’. I remember a number of politicians saying the latter treaty was just tinkering around the edges or tieing up a few loose strings, yeah my are they were.

So I put this question to you all. Which ever party you support. Do you trust your local politicians? Do you trust your national politicians? If the answer is no, then why do you trust unelected beaurocrats to decide your lives in the EU?

What’s more from my point of view the multitude of threats coming out of Barnier & Tusks mouth demonstrate how much the Europeans really like us (I have always considered that other countries like us to some degree or other but oh, they love our money much, much more) and how worried they are of us succeeding. They’re inwardly shitting themselves.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 08:27:59
On your penultimate point, I don’t trust our politicians which is exactly why I want a separate, all encompassing body as well, which is no more unelected than Westminster


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 10:56:42
On your penultimate point, I don’t trust our politicians which is exactly why I want a separate, all encompassing body as well, which is no more unelected than Westminster

My local MP is Mr Buckland.... I don't trust him.  He campaigned for Remain, but now is firmly in the out camp. I'd suspect his Damescene conversion has more to do with personal gain than any thought for his constituents.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 11:07:31
My local MP is Mr Buckland.... I don't trust him.  He campaigned for Remain, but now is firmly in the out camp. I'd suspect his Damescene conversion has more to do with personal gain than any thought for his constituents.

That's unlike any politician!

I have John Redwood... Firmly in the out camp and has remained vocal on it despite the fact the majority of his constituents voted to remain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 11:38:40
That's unlike any politician!

I have John Redwood... Firmly in the out camp and has remained vocal on it despite the fact the majority of his constituents voted to remain.

We have Tim Farron, campaigned to remain, constituency voted remain, continues to promote remain...

Not so keen on gay people though!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 13:00:21
....
The debate on the economics is not an easy one though - there is indeed evidence to suggest that right now the UK benefits financially overall - that is the net financial contribution to the economy is higher than any associated costs through welfare, NHS, local services etc.  However, that is because we are attracting economic migrants - the risk of course is that they too grow old and remain in the country, merely pushing back a cost to the country for later generations again.  You still need to consider some long term costs and begin planning for them.  What has certainly happened is that the boon in economic migrants has helped push that debate back a few years and create some breathing space.
You highlight an important issue.

Reports nearly all show that overall EU migration is a net fiscal benefit to the UK.  By contrast, non-EU migration is a clear net fiscal loss.  Those of us who are are native Brits are also a clear net fiscal loss.  What has now happened since the referendum is that uncontrolled but profitable EU migration is down, whereas controlled and costly non-EU immigration is up.

I understand the attraction of "control" but imo it does appear illusory in practice.  I respect the opposite view.

A minority may just want to shut the door (with limited exceptions).  That would be control.  I would ask then however: Are you comfortable with a disproportionate growth of our native Muslim population and how serious an economic price are you really prepared to pay?

If immigrants are a numbers problem, then the other group to control are the elderly - they simply do not die as they used to and are themselves a source of population growth.   They are massively unproductive as a group (Pensions, Benefits, Social Care and NHS usage).  As you rightly point out, Paul, immigrants grow older and retire and become a future cost.  So does the native working population.

Who will fund today's workers' retirements?  The best element of "control" is less birth control but we, like most EU countries, have a negative birthrate.  Too much birth control, not enough future working taxpayers and an unfunded retirement.  Really, unpleasant ultra capitalist alternatives aside, it seems we are going to have to accept immigration and may even find ourselves competing for it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 13:04:09
Legends, I think you are wrong on many details, but I respect your reasons.

The EU has many political flaws, that is true, but the fallacy that it is entirely decisions made by unelected people is just that.  Given the responses to the PM question, it is probably more representative by virtue of having three separate strands to keep people in check.  But that's not going to win any arguments in the UK, I know that.

I will blame everyone who uses the "we were lied to" line though - if you refuse to invest time and effort into a decision that impacts your entire form of Government, and instead take one line snippets from people pushing an agenda, then more fool you.  A brief period spend reading up on the original Treaty of Rome should provide enough information to have understood the ultimate end goal.  If people really did believe they were signing up for some sort of weekend club, then they sort of deserve the personal anguish they seem to have felt.

The EU is by no means perfect, in fact, I;d say the institutions are just as useless as the Governments for the Nations.  For me it has always been about what you care for - I don't personally have any real notion of Nationhood in terms of politics - I couldn't care less if the Government was ignoring me in London or in Brussells.  So for me it has always been about freedom - the EU provided a "sense" of allowing people the choice to move, or stay, the choice to travel or not, the choice to trade without barrier.  Ultimately, the European Nations were falling over themselves to fight each other for centuries, since 1945 we have somehow managed to avoid continuing that, and the EU must take some credit.  For all it's imperfections, the divorce process shows just how effective it is at "integrating" countries, if not quite yet cultures.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 13:16:37
Also, on immigration, here is a way the EU does work to move money around, to an extent.  The concept of freedom of movement is no doubt behind what was a growing Eastern EU migration.  By and large, they move for work, not for benefits.  Work pays well, they earn and get taxed locally, hence most reports showing the positive impact on a local economy if new migrants.  They also send money "home", which creates a new income stream for poorer countries - those who remain see more money coming in, raising, even if marginally, local living standards.

At the same time, companies can move to lower cost resource bases, which give immediate cost benefits - but through growing competition, the impact should be an increase in local wages over time.

The problem with these positive benefits is they are incremental and take generations to truly change a country into merely a region.  It still requires good management - nudging - from Government.  You only need to look in England to see how even in a small island, entire regions can be left behind.

All of the above clearly means jack shit if you are a true Nationalist of course, which is where I think more than 50% of the UK is.  The UK itself being a smaller version of the EU, having precisely the same problems as evidenced by the shift in Scottish politics in recent decades.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 13:40:58
All of the above clearly means jack shit if you are a true Nationalist of course


I think the issue is that the lines between nationalism and patriotism have become very blurred and many who are nationalist will actually claim to be patriots mainly due to the negative image associated with nationalism.

(https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/915/1*ZrkcoClQU09Y0BnDoHf-jQ.jpeg)

Its much like the fact that in the UK the George Flag has almost been annexed by far right organisations in many peoples eyes giving it an interpretation that doesn't actually reflect much of the population. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 13:51:40
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-43224785

And here is a concrete example of where the EU "works: as a concept for me, stay with me.  While it is probably impossible to conclude a direct relationship between being in the EU and the NI Peace Process working out, quite clearly, leaving the EU is going to rip it to shreds to some degree.

There is no workable solution for everyone when it comes to the border.  If we are out of the EU and Single Market, then quite clearly a border is needed between Rep & N Ireland.  That's going to go down like a tonne of bricks with the Sein Fein group.  If a soft border is left in place then a more secure border is needed between the Irish Sea, which means the Unionists will be up in arms about treating N Ireland differently within the UK.

We are resetting to pre-1992 at the very least.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 14:30:04
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-43224785

And here is a concrete example of where the EU "works: as a concept for me, stay with me.  While it is probably impossible to conclude a direct relationship between being in the EU and the NI Peace Process working out, quite clearly, leaving the EU is going to rip it to shreds to some degree.

There is no workable solution for everyone when it comes to the border.  If we are out of the EU and Single Market, then quite clearly a border is needed between Rep & N Ireland.  That's going to go down like a tonne of bricks with the Sein Fein group.  If a soft border is left in place then a more secure border is needed between the Irish Sea, which means the Unionists will be up in arms about treating N Ireland differently within the UK.

We are resetting to pre-1992 at the very least.

If only someone had warned them off this chaos, but don't fear Johnson is going to solve it with traffic enforcement cameras like they do between Islington and Camden.... although he has been less forthcoming regarding how a camera can do a customs check?

The attempts of the Tory Party to just trash the GFA to deliver their ideology is the real stinker in the whole process (although they heavily prejudiced it already by essentially making Arlene Foster PM, 'the UK government will stay independent in the negotiation processes', my arsehole). One only has to see the fact that May is responding to the EU drafting of the withdrawal bill to show what a complete fuck up the government have made, the first rule of any legal negotiation (day one of law school) is to make sure your side drafts the legal document as it always give you the upper hand in subsequent negotiations, we have had 18 months to do this and delivered nothing, the public have no idea what the government wants and this draft is merely the EU have given up and had to do it themselves, its frankly fucking embarrassing the manner in which our elected leaders are approaching this, be it sheer ineptitude or an attempt to force parliament to consider a no deal hard brexit, which has little chance of passing parliament anyway.

They are making us a third world country on the international political stage!



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 14:55:53
We used to have Judy Mallaber when Labour were in power last. She was part of the main cabinet for a number of years and in all honesty (having met her about three times) she wasn't 'full of fluff' like many politicians and she often and continually raised questions asked by her constituents, in parliament and didn't go quietly. She lost her seat in the Con-Lib election. What had been quite a Labour stronghold for a good while and had been a more margin seat previously, swaying between Conservative and  Labour in councillor wards, not really many votes needed to change hands (about 1k-1.2k votes in 50+k avg turnout, so c2% majority). Mallaber lost her set by only 500 votes in 2010. While Labour have suffered in our area, and the conservatives have held since. Last year UKIP didn't stand in our constituency (after gaining around 7k votes in 2015, some 14% share) and it seems of the 7k; 5k went to Conservative (25k) and 2k to Labour (17k), Lib Dem no change (1k) and Greens no change (sharing 1k with an independent). Changes are happening though and current voters here seem unsettled/disillusioned. I wonder if the traditional Labour voters (of the 90s and 00's) that voted for UKIP, will now return to their original vote? Labour could quite possibly regain control. While I see many not voting for Conservative, Labour now need 4k votes to sneak a win. Trouble is, the turnouts have dropped (70k first time out down to 45k last year) meaning they need a massive 11% to gain the seat. Unlikely right now because the 'man on the street' just doesn't know who to vote for or should I say, doesn't know who deserves their vote.

Just up the road Labour have held their position, like Bolsover and the Beasts namesake, Dennis Skinner. I do wonder when he finally gives up his 'dead mans boots' if Bolsover will remain Labour, because while we all love Dennis, it seems more a sentimental/generational affection. He happens to have been a bloody good MP. I think he'll get to 50 years service and call it a day. That or he'll pass in parliament. I met him once, when I was pretty young and he is as no nonsense as he is in the Commons. Certainly one of the last of a certain kind, he'll be missed.

One other politician who I also met a few times was Charles Kennedy, as he used to stay on the island I used to work on. He was also a very genuine character and would stop in a lane, when what was mainly a passing hello, became a good half hour natter. It was such a shame he had the wrath and battle with addiction. It was clear to see yet so difficult to stop, he was a decent man, with an unfortunate gripping vice, that would not let him go. I had a lot of respect for him and even in the few times we chatted he always managed to tell me something new or interesting. He was a very intelligent man. I wish I had been able to spend even more time talking with him.

Back to today, our current MP is Nigel Mills (Con), who has been in since his narrow victory over Mallaber. Having not really been involved in any local politics since moving back, I only know that Mills is the very same guy that was playing Candy Crush in a Parliament meeting. So why he garners any respect up here, for his position is beyond me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 15:03:32
...the EU must take some credit.  For all it's imperfections, the divorce process shows just how effective it is at "integrating" countries, if not quite yet cultures.

This. Also the EU is still a developing project. We've effectively voted to leave before the project has even got anywhere near completion, even though as you stated, it has come a very long way already.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 15:06:41
They are making us a third world country on the international political stage!

I liked the response to the border question of one prominent Tory Brexiteer.   "We don't want a hard border, but if the EU do then that's their problem"  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 15:11:33
I liked the response to the border question of one prominent Tory Brexiteer.   "We don't want a hard border, but if the EU do then that's their problem"  :)

Erm, I am no expert but when the bombs start going off again in NI I think that's actually going to be our own, entirely self inflicted problem.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 15:23:38
Erm, I am no expert but when the bombs start going off again in NI I think that's actually going to be our own, entirely self inflicted problem.....

I think the Brexiteers hope the Irish economy will collapse and they'll have to come back into the UK.  This time, no repeat of Gideon's 2010 Loans To Ireland Act, which was part of an EU bail out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 15:33:59
I can't think of anything worse for Peace in Ireland than a collapsing economy combined with the re-implementation of a proper border.  ISIS will probably need to take a backseat for a few years.  Essentially we'll go back to a time just after the dismantling of the Empire, to find ourselves with a UK that actually doesn't want to be tied to each other outside of monetary reasons.  With the Monarchy now no more than a tourist attraction (a good one though), I see the years following Brexit as a steady move towards the loss of Scotland from the Union, the mess ensuing in NI and Wales, well, no idea about Wales.  I'm not even sure if they think they are part of the UK.  They seem to just carry on in little enclaves, as if nothing ever happened, unlike the Scots who as soon as the Uk economy comes under any pressure will re-ignite the Independence push.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 15:39:41
I can't think of anything worse for Peace in Ireland than a collapsing economy combined with the re-implementation of a proper border.  ISIS will probably need to take a backseat for a few years.  Essentially we'll go back to a time just after the dismantling of the Empire, to find ourselves with a UK that actually doesn't want to be tied to each other outside of monetary reasons.  With the Monarchy now no more than a tourist attraction (a good one though), I see the years following Brexit as a steady move towards the loss of Scotland from the Union, the mess ensuing in NI and Wales, well, no idea about Wales.  I'm not even sure if they think they are part of the UK.  They seem to just carry on in little enclaves, as if nothing ever happened, unlike the Scots who as soon as the Uk economy comes under any pressure will re-ignite the Independence push.

So much fun to look forward to!

The Welsh will always piggy back us because otherwise it just wouldn't be cricket....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 16:11:47
I can't think of anything worse for Peace in Ireland than a collapsing economy combined with the re-implementation of a proper border.  ISIS will probably need to take a backseat for a few years.  Essentially we'll go back to a time just after the dismantling of the Empire, to find ourselves with a UK that actually doesn't want to be tied to each other outside of monetary reasons.  With the Monarchy now no more than a tourist attraction (a good one though), I see the years following Brexit as a steady move towards the loss of Scotland from the Union, the mess ensuing in NI and Wales, well, no idea about Wales.  I'm not even sure if they think they are part of the UK.  They seem to just carry on in little enclaves, as if nothing ever happened, unlike the Scots who as soon as the Uk economy comes under any pressure will re-ignite the Independence push.

And all delivered on the watch of the Conservative and Unionist Party.... That would be the ultimate irony....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 16:28:07
And all delivered on the watch of the Conservative and Unionist Party.... That would be the ultimate irony....

I have no idea what they really stand for any more.  Whether you supported them or not, two things that you could always be sure the Tories stood for were (a) the Union; and (b) the interests of Corporate UK.

As you say, the Conservative and Unionist Party is now doing more to dismantle the UK than any other political party (including the SNP).  

And they are also now consistently and unambiguously choosing to fight against all of the massed evidence to suggest that a hard Brexit will inflict immense harm on the economy and on living standards.  Their reputation for economic competence will be trashed for decades...and they don't seem to care.  It's completely & utterly extraordinary.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 16:35:25
I have no idea what they really stand for any more.  Whether you supported them or not, two things that you could always be sure the Tories stood for were (a) the Union; and (b) the interests of Corporate UK.

As you say, the Conservative and Unionist Party is now doing more to dismantle the UK than any other political party (including the SNP). 

And they are also now consistently and unambiguously choosing to fight against all of the massed evidence to suggest that a hard Brexit will inflict immense harm on the economy and on living standards.  Their reputation for economic competence will be trashed for decades...and they don't seem to care.  It's completely & utterly extraordinary.

As pointed out previously (actually it might not have been on here :D but I said it somewhere) we have the absurd position that a radical socialist party leader is better representing the wishes of big business (the CBI, the IoD etc) than the Tory Party.

World has gone mad, I tell thee.  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, February 28, 2018, 16:53:59
As pointed out previously (actually it might not have been on here :D but I said it somewhere) we have the absurd position that a radical socialist party leader is better representing the wishes of big business (the CBI, the IoD etc) than the Tory Party.

World has gone mad, I tell thee.  :hmmm:

Not exactly surprising... these businesses are mostly widget makers, who shift stuff around for manaufacture and sale etc. Out of necessity they have to employ workers, hence the mutual interest.   The Tories are more the party of bankers and hedge fund operators, who don't make anything, beyond profits and bonuses and are already supranational.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, March 1, 2018, 01:12:17
One only has to see the fact that May is responding to the EU drafting of the withdrawal bill to show what a complete fuck up the government have made, the first rule of any legal negotiation (day one of law school) is to make sure your side drafts the legal document as it always give you the upper hand in subsequent negotiations, we have had 18 months to do this and delivered nothing, the public have no idea what the government wants and this draft is merely the EU have given up and had to do it themselves, its frankly fucking embarrassing the manner in which our elected leaders are approaching this, be it sheer ineptitude or an attempt to force parliament to consider a no deal hard brexit, which has little chance of passing parliament anyway
What a lot of interesting posts!

Amidst all the genuine divisions we have over Brexit, it is this negotiating amateurism that is so pitiful. 

It is OUR Brexit.  We should espouse a vision.  We should define the agenda and shape it with detail.  Forcing the EU to react to our proposals. Letting the EU respond as best they can to our agenda - with a few negotiable red lines of their own.

But no.  It is always the EU, almost reluctantly, setting out the structure of the negotiations, filling in the timetable, picking the phase one issues and then putting in the summary for everyone's benefit - but of course for their own benefit, who else's.

Its always passive....we won't agree to this....well you don't reveal all of your hand.  If this were a boardroom, the company would be taken over.  As it is, we muddle on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, March 1, 2018, 08:24:34
Amidst all the genuine divisions we have over Brexit, it is this negotiating amateurism that is so pitiful.  

It is OUR Brexit.  We should espouse a vision.  We should define the agenda and shape it with detail.  Forcing the EU to react to our proposals. Letting the EU respond as best they can to our agenda - with a few negotiable red lines of their own.

But no.  It is always the EU, almost reluctantly, setting out the structure of the negotiations, filling in the timetable, picking the phase one issues and then putting in the summary for everyone's benefit - but of course for their own benefit, who else's.

Its always passive....we won't agree to this....well you don't reveal all of your hand.  If this were a boardroom, the company would be taken over.  As it is, we muddle on.

It is a virtually impossible hand that we've voted ourselves.  We must get out of the club but still reap the benefits of being in the club.  We must retain an open border with Eire but at the same time be able to control our borders. 

But for all the difficulties imposed on the government by the electorate this is still a shambles and, as said, breaks the most basic rules of successful negotiating.  This is the problem when you have a pm who is an effective and conscientious implementation manager but a lousy leader.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 1, 2018, 08:42:14
What a lot of interesting posts!

Amidst all the genuine divisions we have over Brexit, it is this negotiating amateurism that is so pitiful. 

It is OUR Brexit.  We should espouse a vision.  We should define the agenda and shape it with detail.  Forcing the EU to react to our proposals. Letting the EU respond as best they can to our agenda - with a few negotiable red lines of their own.
That's because we don't have a vision, because the whole clusterfuck was always about sorting out a faction fight in the Tory Party. The morons and opportunists who led the charge to Leave (and are now in charge of Brexit) didn't bother with a vision because they didn't think they'd need one, because they never expected to win. And didn't especially want to, they were just positioning themselves to lead the Tory party to the right. So why bother with a vision or a policy or anything other than vague handwaving and tub-thumping? Detail is hard. The other thing that unites the Brexit faction of the cabinet is their utter laziness - even now they can't be arsed to actually think any of this shit through, far easier to let the EU lead and then garner more of those splendid "Hands off our cheese/fish/Northern Ireland, says Boris" headlines, even if it does mean selling those industries and regions down the shitter as you do so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, March 1, 2018, 10:36:41
Agree entirely.

The Government has completely failed in its pursuit of the Brexit vote.  Its duty is to govern not to go round in circles for 2 years.

Whilst respecting the existence of a significant Just Leave on WTO terms belief, there was never a majority of all the people, leavers and remainers, for that.  A referendum is not like an election where the winning party gets all of its policies as a package (as determined by the dominant group within that party) even though its supporters may not have approved of every policy.

The referendum mandated leave and it was then incumbent of the Government to implement that in a practical way in line with the good sense and moderation of the British people as a whole rather than the ideologues amongst one half of the electorate.

It is now a complete lottery as to what happens next, the merits of which which we can all argue.  Our lack of attention to detail and the needlessly prolonged uncertainty caused by the Government's lack of direction has however been a joke and a clusterfuck.  




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 1, 2018, 11:09:12
Agree entirely.

The Government has completely failed in its pursuit of the Brexit vote. 
The opposition haven't exactly covered themselves in glory, either. The whole political class has been quite pathetic in the way they've responded to people failing to do what they're told by those who think they know best.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, March 1, 2018, 11:55:02
Less concerned with the Opposition's performance.

Complacent perhaps as it is possible I could need to become very concerned.

It's not right for an adult, I know, but my main concern right now is on what happens next for us in League 2 :pint:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 1, 2018, 13:37:46
It's not right for an adult, I know, but my main concern right now is on what happens next for us in League 2 :pint:
Au contraire, that is the only sane response to these worrying times. But I wouldn't worry about any of it tbh because we're clearly all going to die in the coming snow-pocalypse


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, March 1, 2018, 13:45:02
The opposition haven't exactly covered themselves in glory, either. The whole political class has been quite pathetic in the way they've responded to people failing to do what they're told by those who think they know best.

Must be difficult for both parties to try to find themselves an electable Brexit stance, while flapping around trying not to totally fuck the union in the process.

May had a good go at "throwing" Brexit by taking a dive, but nobody in their right mind wants to pick that loaded gun up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, March 1, 2018, 14:32:46
I'm guessing the parties are walking a fine line because their voters were split on the Brexit vote - they don't really know which way to turn.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 1, 2018, 15:02:38
I'm guessing the parties are walking a fine line because their voters were split on the Brexit vote - they don't really know which way to turn.
Maybe they could try some leadership? Not the pre-referendum "Do what you're fucking told because we know best, oiks" shit, but some actual leadership. Crazy talk I know


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 2, 2018, 16:34:01
That's unlike any politician!

I have John Redwood... Firmly in the out camp and has remained vocal on it despite the fact the majority of his constituents voted to remain.

Redwood has written a piece for the Graun as to the advantages for us Brits in the EU accepting a vague deal outlined by May today...

 "I also look forward to the day, after a clean Brexit such as the one described by the prime minister, when the UK parliament can abolish VAT on feminine hygiene products, green products including heating controls and draught excluders...."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 2, 2018, 16:39:44
Redwood has written a piece for the Graun as to the advantages for us Brits in the EU accepting a vague deal outlined by May today...

 

Did she outline a vague deal, sounded to me like spouting a complete load of bullshit in the vague hope that she can keep the ultra hardliners on board whilst actually saying jack shit, whilst merrily kicking the Irish Border down the lane once again - and if she doe ever sort Ireland she has Gibraltar to deal with yet which could make Ireland look like a walk in the park!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 2, 2018, 16:48:07
Did she outline a vague deal, sounded to me like spouting a complete load of bullshit in the vague hope that she can keep the ultra hardliners on board whilst actually saying jack shit, whilst merrily kicking the Irish Border down the lane once again - and if she doe ever sort Ireland she has Gibraltar to deal with yet which could make Ireland look like a walk in the park!

I think so.... well sort of vaguely outlining a vague deal.  But the EU is a political construct so our departure will have to be done politically.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, March 2, 2018, 17:09:51
just seems a bit arrogant to me, we'll get this great deal and 27 will be to our whims.

I get it's a negotiating position , but the sheer idiocy in trying to sell that we'll be the one calling all the shots...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 2, 2018, 17:32:47
just seems a bit arrogant to me, we'll get this great deal and 27 will be to our whims.

I get it's a negotiating position , but the sheer idiocy in trying to sell that we'll be the one calling all the shots...

We've got the single biggest military capability of all EU states... and 2 new aircraft carriers, just a shame no planes to go on them... I think we should test the waters by claiming a historic right to the Pale of Calais, which we held for 200 years post Crecy...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, March 14, 2018, 12:25:29
Literally taking food from the mouths of children now. The coalition with the DUP is dirty, disgusting, shameful.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, March 14, 2018, 12:47:46
Literally taking food from the mouths of children now. The coalition with the DUP is dirty, disgusting, shameful.

Wonder if we'll see any Tory voters come along to justify this move?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 14, 2018, 12:54:31
Literally taking food from the mouths of children now. The coalition with the DUP is dirty, disgusting, shameful.

Interestingly when the shit hit the fan up here with ITV (I think) running the story about many kids only having one decent meal a day via the free school meal, the schools often having to feed the parents as well as they couldn't afford food and wash the kids clothes, along with the reemergence of rickets in Morecambe, the local Tory MP claimed that a) people were making it up, despite various GP's surgeries, schools and the local CAB all providing evidence to the contrary and then b) that he was unaware of what was happening in his constituency as he was at Westminster all the time 'fighting for the well being of his constituents, inlcuding the children'....

He voted in favour of the changes, as you can imagine that's gone down well up here....

In more amusing news the responses to Jeremy Hunts tweet regarding the death of Hawking, who was in the process of suing Hunt, make interesting reading....

https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/973831345469345792


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: turbotubbs on Wednesday, March 14, 2018, 12:56:17
Literally taking food from the mouths of children now. The coalition with the DUP is dirty, disgusting, shameful.
Just not true though...
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-labour-arent-telling-the-full-story-about-free-school-meals


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 14, 2018, 13:01:27
Just not true though...
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-labour-arent-telling-the-full-story-about-free-school-meals

Have you actually read that?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: turbotubbs on Wednesday, March 14, 2018, 13:02:22
Have you actually read that?
Yes


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 15, 2018, 11:24:11
I know what would be a great idea, lets start imposing large fines on people don't have anything to pay them with....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-43397938#

I assume we will be bringing back the workhouse shortly?

Its like nationally they are having a competition as to who can be the greatest clueless and unpleasant cunt and each time someone thinks they have won, another says 'hold my beer!'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 15, 2018, 11:27:16
I know what would be a great idea, lets start imposing large fines on people don't have anything to pay them with....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-43397938#

I assume we will be bringing back the workhouse shortly?
Well, presumably the only object of imposing such fines is precisely that the people fined won't be able to pay them so they can be jailed for non-payment of the fines, rather than jailing them directly for being homeless. So pretty much, yeah.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, March 16, 2018, 09:57:46
Massively sad commentary on what seems acceptable to "the majority" these days.  Poole of course comprises the suburb with the highest coastal land values in the UK, namely Sandbanks of 'Arry fame. 

I guess this is the first world equivalent of the not uncommon practice of "street cleaning", Latin American-style. 

The UN noted this by the Police in Rio before the World Cup/Olympics.  It certainly has been unremarkable for the Rotary Club/Business Guild equivalent to employ private hitmen to clear the streets when feral street children started to lower the tone.

Some of these countries may be too impoverished to tackle the problem at source but you would think Poole could have some better strategies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, March 20, 2018, 09:42:07
So, the government seems to have arrived at some sort of agreement with the EU, about staying in a bit longer to prevent business crashing and burning.

The swivellers aren't happy.... neither are the DUP.

Liam Fox will also be free to set up trade deals with the likes of the Saudis etc.... I wonder if Putin wants one  :hmmm:

 :popcorn:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 20, 2018, 09:51:49
But at what a cost, we have capitulated on the rights of EU citizens arriving after Brexit, the fall back with NI remaining in the customs union remains (despite being a red line for JRM - I fear that May is a mere figurehead/mouthpiece these days), we will be able to negotiate trade deals, although what country in their right mind will want to negotiate any such thing until they know our trading relationship with the EU is open to question, but I don't think one is supposed to think about it that much.

In other news...

Perhaps Theresa May should start asking questions regarding why JRM's company has substantial holdings in a Russian bank (Sberbank) that is presently subject to sanctions by the US and EU. The sanctions are generally for bombing civilians in Syria, hacking elections, murdering people aboard, shooting down holiday jets.

Funny how this little nugget has been barely reported in the papers, similarly to the £800k the party have received in donations from various oligarchs and the £160k Johnson was paid for playing tennis with the wife of a Russian Minister.... They are very generous these Russians handing over in excess of £1m for nothing in return?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 20, 2018, 11:14:58
But at what a cost, we have capitulated on the rights of EU citizens arriving after Brexit, the fall back with NI remaining in the customs union remains (despite being a red line for JRM - I fear that May is a mere figurehead/mouthpiece these days), we will be able to negotiate trade deals, although what country in their right mind will want to negotiate any such thing until they know our trading relationship with the EU is open to question, but I don't think one is supposed to think about it that much.
Not to mention fishing rights that was apparently such a big deal during the Brexit campaign, but now sold down the river (to the sea, presumably)

And in other news when do we get a UK Mueller inquiry into Russian interference in our elections?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43465700

Or with it becoming increasingly apparent that the Tories are being bought and sold by Putin and his inner circle with the casual ease of their dealings in the London property market, perhaps that might uncover answers that some in power (and I suspect in opposition too) wouldn't like.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 20, 2018, 11:30:33
Not to mention fishing rights that was apparently such a big deal during the Brexit campaign, but now sold down the river (to the sea, presumably)


I am going to buy a fishing boat shortly, as it appears to be the only industry that matters to any on the Brexiteer side who are wagging the dog at the moment, nice little trawler....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 20, 2018, 11:34:29
I am going to buy a fishing boat shortly, as it appears to be the only industry that matters to any on the Brexiteer side who are wagging the dog at the moment, nice little trawler....
Not to IDS it doesn't, he was quite happily fobbing them off on the radio this morning. As long as they get their no tarrifs utopia, all the other promises they made can go hang.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 20, 2018, 11:58:27
Not to IDS it doesn't, he was quite happily fobbing them off on the radio this morning. As long as they get their no tarrifs utopia, all the other promises they made can go hang.

Didn't hear it, was he still blathering on about the nonsense of British Fish in British waters, like Fish don't move around ignoring the nominal ownership of waters and are going to be issued with little blue (laminated I assume) passports?

However nice to see that our figurehead Brexiteer is taking it well and showing the EU what a statesmanlike country we are....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/19/jacob-rees-mogg-fling-fish-trawler-thames-protest-fishermen/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, March 21, 2018, 21:10:03
However nice to see that our figurehead Brexiteer is taking it well and showing the EU what a statesmanlike country we are....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/19/jacob-rees-mogg-fling-fish-trawler-thames-protest-fishermen/
And they even fucked that up:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jacob-reesmogg-thames-fishing-protest-descends-into-farce-as-tfl-blocks-trawler-from-docking-a3795181.html

Christ, these arseholes genuinely couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery could they?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, March 21, 2018, 21:28:41
And they even fucked that up:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jacob-reesmogg-thames-fishing-protest-descends-into-farce-as-tfl-blocks-trawler-from-docking-a3795181.html

Christ, these arseholes genuinely couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery could they?

This is a Thames river boat protest..... scary to think over 40 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d2VX-NTbgM


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, March 21, 2018, 22:40:41
And an excellent choice of song title for the likes of Lord Haw Haw, Rees Mogg et al


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, March 21, 2018, 23:10:52
And an excellent choice of song title for the likes of Lord Haw Haw, Rees Mogg et al
And Dianne abbott, Emily thornberry to add a bit of balance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, March 22, 2018, 15:25:49
Today's fiasco, is the news that the totemic blue passport, claimed by Brexiteers as a sign of taking back control.... will be made by a Franco-Dutch company rather than the British company whcih makes the current EU passports  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 22, 2018, 15:49:28
Today's fiasco, is the news that the totemic blue passport, claimed by Brexiteers as a sign of taking back control.... will be made by a Franco-Dutch company rather than the British company whcih makes the current EU passports  :)

But it does have a unicorn on the front of it, thus delivering one of the promises - something I have to confess I had never noticed before.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 22, 2018, 15:52:47
But it does have a unicorn on the front of it, thus delivering one of the promises - something I have to confess I had never noticed before.
It's a very good symbolic representation of the total fucking fantasy nature of most of the Brexiteers' promises


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, March 22, 2018, 16:04:00
It's a very good symbolic representation of the total fucking fantasy nature of most of the Brexiteers' promises

As I understand it, the Brexit vote was engineered by Putin, using the data harvested by Cambridge Analytica from Facebook.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, March 24, 2018, 21:19:50
I knew hobodan's shiny new avatar reminded me of something:
(http://thetownend.com/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=5470;type=avatar)
and then I remembered:

(https://germanpropaganda1930to1945.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/bolsch0011.jpg?w=295&h=401)
(http://c7.alamy.com/comp/D96192/der-ewige-jude-1937-book-of-phtographs-published-by-the-third-reich-D96192.jpg)
They might dress up as "alt-right" these days, but Nazi propaganda never really gets a new tune, 80 years ago it was the Jews control international communism, now it's the Muslims. Same old shit, different scapegoats.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Saturday, March 24, 2018, 21:56:52
Oh bless you Paul. You’re easily offended aren’t you 😂 as you are of the persuasion that enables the rape of British children, I’m sure I have more to be offended about. Each to their own i guess


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Saturday, March 24, 2018, 22:04:07
Oh bless you Paul. You’re easily offended aren’t you 😂 as you are of the persuasion that enables the rape of British children, I’m sure I have more to be offended about. Each to their own i guess

I think if you’re going to generalise the entire Muslim faith as child rapists because of what’s happened in Rochdale and Telford, you should probably do the same for white men aged 50+ because of yewtree


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, March 24, 2018, 22:12:37
For the record: As an antitheist, antiislamic humanist secularist....

I think Hobodan is a bigoted bellend.

Edit *Oh, I forgot 'Ignorant'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Saturday, March 24, 2018, 22:20:24
He's perfectly entitled to his view. I don't agree but it's the difference of views that makes forums interesting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, March 24, 2018, 22:22:04
I know I'm a cunt but I think Hobodan just hit a new high in "How to lose friends and isolate people". When I saw the Avatar it did make me think  :hmmm:

What a shame, I thought we were better than that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, March 24, 2018, 22:26:30
Absolutely. He is entitled to his view.

What grinds me, though, is that genuine bigots such as this bellend give other people the assumption that critics of Islam (Or other faiths) are bigots. The far right is one of the left's best weapons. They're just too fucking stupid to realise it. The left is fucking stupid as well for buying into it.

Fuck it, I have wine. I shall consume.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Saturday, March 24, 2018, 22:41:25
The world has changed. Years ago you could disagree on politics, religion etc and still be friends. Nowadays there is a tendency to think everyone we disagree with is a cunt. It's actually one area the alleged tolerant and intolerant can agree on.if you're not with me then you're a cunt and I will polarise you with some simplistic nasty put down.
I have wine too. Let's embrace the differences not stigmatise them. Win the argument not the playground fight.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Saturday, March 24, 2018, 22:45:52
Why? The current rape epidemic by Muslim gangs highlights the disdain that Muslims have for white non Muslim people (children). Every society is going to produce ‘wrong uns’, but every society does not have a major problem with foreign gangs raping children of a certain demographic.
Where are the Sikh, Christian, Scientologist gangs raping Pakistani Muslim children?
Ofcourse all Muslims ar not evil rapists, but we do have a major problem with Islam in the West. Why?

Do you know anything about Islam? What I find bizarre is that lefties that defend Islam and attack the right / centre, don’t understand that Islam is an extreme patriachial and oppressive authoritarian / supremecist ideology. Until you read the Quran, Sahih Bukhara, Sahih Muslim; you’ll be blissfully unaware of the motive of Islam, and the political will that it endeavours to enforce on every society. I’m all for spiritual neutrality, but allowing religion to be intertwined with politics is very dangerous, and Islam is not only a spiritual ideology it is also very political, “a way of life” as many Muslims will tell you.
I can share with you many Islamic texts that’s Muslims believe in that are supremacist and call for your own death. Ofcourse you will ignore them, you will say ‘Islam is a religion of peace’, ‘not all Muslims are like this’, ‘I know a peaceful muslim’. But do you trust someone that believes in such discriminatory text? Do you not question their sanity? Are you not offended that they believe in an ideology that sees you, the ‘Kuffar’ as a second rate human there to eventually be oppressed by Islam, there for you to convert or pay your ‘Jizia’ and be in serfdom to the elite?

Bury you’re head in the sand if you wish. I’m sure your forefathers who fought for freedom and liberty from fascist and bigoted ideology will be pleased that you have enabled a fascist and bigoted ideology to sneak in via the backdoor, I’m sure your great great granddaughter will be pleased that you didn’t have the fortitude to stand up to such a despicable and oppressive ideology of women, I’m sure she’ll be thinking of you when she recalls the opportunities of the past her great great grandad had to prevent her from being forced to wear her ‘modest head dress’, when her clitorous is savagely removed as a young child so she cannot enjoy a sex life.

People like Paul, and the left wing brigade on here get upset by a few badges and words they think opposes a free society, they see any minority group and feel the need to be the ‘white knight’, to fight for liberty of all etc. What Paul and his ilk fail to grasp is some of these ‘minorities’ he must defend’th, are the ones that want an authoritarian regime, they want their ideology at all costs, at the cost of a nation built on everything that opposes such autocratic and authoritarian politics.
Part of me hopes that pauld one day gets the country his politics will inevitably spawn, because under the current trajectory of religious demographic and with the insipid character of today’s ‘lefty males’, our children’s future is looking bleaker by the year, and our future generations will be in an Islamic majority, like it or not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, March 24, 2018, 22:48:16
I agree with most of that, chalkies.  What I will add ,though, is that if you are a bigot(I'm not calling you a bigot), then that is one area that I will not agree on.

Yet I am a staunch anti-islamic, anti-theist blah blah. That's confusing to some, but plenty get it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, March 24, 2018, 22:51:11
I know he's just responded but I really am off to bed. Will respond soon-ish


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Saturday, March 24, 2018, 23:10:37
Why? The current rape epidemic by Muslim gangs highlights the disdain that Muslims have for white non Muslim people (children). Every society is going to produce ‘wrong uns’, but every society does not have a major problem with foreign gangs raping children of a certain demographic.
Where are the Sikh, Christian, Scientologist gangs raping Pakistani Muslim children?
Ofcourse all Muslims ar not evil rapists, but we do have a major problem with Islam in the West. Why?

Do you know anything about Islam? What I find bizarre is that lefties that defend Islam and attack the right / centre, don’t understand that Islam is an extreme patriachial and oppressive authoritarian / supremecist ideology. Until you read the Quran, Sahih Bukhara, Sahih Muslim; you’ll be blissfully unaware of the motive of Islam, and the political will that it endeavours to enforce on every society. I’m all for spiritual neutrality, but allowing religion to be intertwined with politics is very dangerous, and Islam is not only a spiritual ideology it is also very political, “a way of life” as many Muslims will tell you.
I can share with you many Islamic texts that’s Muslims believe in that are supremacist and call for your own death. Ofcourse you will ignore them, you will say ‘Islam is a religion of peace’, ‘not all Muslims are like this’, ‘I know a peaceful muslim’. But do you trust someone that believes in such discriminatory text? Do you not question their sanity? Are you not offended that they believe in an ideology that sees you, the ‘Kuffar’ as a second rate human there to eventually be oppressed by Islam, there for you to convert or pay your ‘Jizia’ and be in serfdom to the elite?

Bury you’re head in the sand if you wish. I’m sure your forefathers who fought for freedom and liberty from fascist and bigoted ideology will be pleased that you have enabled a fascist and bigoted ideology to sneak in via the backdoor, I’m sure your great great granddaughter will be pleased that you didn’t have the fortitude to stand up to such a despicable and oppressive ideology of women, I’m sure she’ll be thinking of you when she recalls the opportunities of the past her great great grandad had to prevent her from being forced to wear her ‘modest head dress’, when her clitorous is savagely removed as a young child so she cannot enjoy a sex life.

People like Paul, and the left wing brigade on here get upset by a few badges and words they think opposes a free society, they see any minority group and feel the need to be the ‘white knight’, to fight for liberty of all etc. What Paul and his ilk fail to grasp is some of these ‘minorities’ he must defend’th, are the ones that want an authoritarian regime, they want their ideology at all costs, at the cost of a nation built on everything that opposes such autocratic and authoritarian politics.
Part of me hopes that pauld one day gets the country his politics will inevitably spawn, because under the current trajectory of religious demographic and with the insipid character of today’s ‘lefty males’, our children’s future is looking bleaker by the year, and our future generations will be in an Islamic majority, like it or not.

Some reading material for you that doesn't fit your agenda.  https://www.alternet.org/30-most-violent-exhortations-bible-torah-and-quran
http://activistshub.com/child-abusemurdertorture-is-embedded-n-the-system-its-how-they-elites-maintain-control-with-black-mail-perks-for-evil-people-its-is-called-a-kakocracy/
http://www.upworthy.com/a-troll-demanded-a-muslim-man-show-examples-of-christian-terrorists-he-delivered?g=2&c=ufb1


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Saturday, March 24, 2018, 23:20:08
My politics are very centrist, I have a problem with any ideology that is authoritarian, that is oppressive and supremacist. I have taken care to read the Islamic texts and to understand them (which is likely more than 99.9% of you on the TEF forum), yet ironically you call me the fascist, you call me the extremist, you question my thoughts that want a free and libertarian future for my children and yours. You attack me because I understand the Islamic texts, because I want everybody to know what is buried in the texts of the ideology that has given rise to rape gangs and terrorists killing innocent men, women and children. Those of you that are enbabling these ideologies to grow and gain power are today’s fascists, yet you proudly display yourselves as the ‘anti-fascist’, and even the irony is lossed on you.




More gin please sir....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Saturday, March 24, 2018, 23:23:32
My politics are very centrist, I have a problem with any ideology that is authoritarian, that is oppressive and supremacist. I have taken care to read the Islamic texts and to understand them (which is likely more than 99.9% of you on the TEF forum), yet ironically you call me the fascist, you call me the extremist, you question my thoughts that want a free and libertarian future for my children and yours. You attack me because I understand the Islamic texts, because I want everybody to know what is buried in the texts of the ideology that has given rise to rape gangs and terrorists killing innocent men, women and children. Those of you that are enbabling these ideologies to grow and gain power are today’s fascists, yet you proudly display yourselves as the ‘anti-fascist’, and even the irony is lossed on you.

Centrist? You're having a laugh. I take it you haven't read any of those links - Are you going to condemn all Christians because of the writings in the Bible? Are ou going to condemn all the white establishement figures for child abuse?



More gin please sir....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Saturday, March 24, 2018, 23:36:30
The thing is that total cunts will always take advantage of a tolerant society.  I'd rather live in a tolerant society where we weed these bastards out than live in an intolerant society where we're all guilty. It's not perfect but i think it's the better option. Too much wine.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Saturday, March 24, 2018, 23:40:56
An obscure article from activist hub (very left wing) and Upworthy aren’t exactly inspiring. I’m not saying there having been terrorists that are ‘white Christian ’ etc, but are you seriously suggesting there is anything like the epidemic of Islamic terrorist and rape gangs? There is a problem with catholic priests, but there is a huge problem with Islamic males in the West. Undeniably so.

What’s amusing is that you’ve gone fishing for these untrustworthy and obscure websites to try and prove some sort of point. What is your point? You are making a defence for the rape of British children by Islamic males by linking a website highlighting jimmy Saville? 🧐 you are certainly no solicitor.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Saturday, March 24, 2018, 23:45:30
The problem is, we are not “weeding these bastards out”. We have created a society too afraid to challenge these ‘bastards’ because our police and social workers prefered the option of keeping quiet about the rape of children, as opposed to being accused of some form of racism and having the rabid left wing mob jump down their throats.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 01:17:47
Fucking get rid of him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 02:07:51
Fucking get rid of him.

It's a reasoned argument, right or wrong, that's your choice and apart from a dig at PaulD as being a leftie, for which there is little evidence not particurlary abusive.

There's been a grooming gang conviction in Oxford recently... which follows a pattern in other English towns. So only right to ask questions of why this should be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 07:13:03
The problem is, we are not “weeding these bastards out”. We have created a society too afraid to challenge these ‘bastards’ because our police and social workers prefered the option of keeping quiet about the rape of children, as opposed to being accused of some form of racism and having the rabid left wing mob jump down their throats.

If this is the problem - and whilst I wouldn't have phrased it that way I would concede that it is - why are we not looking for a solution for this rather than ranting about islam? A load of vitriol suggesting that certain problems are inherent in islam and can't be changed, is bound to get people's backs up and have them attack you. You damage the chance of any meaningful discourse as much as the left-wing mob you so despise.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 07:24:11
Fucking get rid of him.

Where is my safe space? I want to live in my echo chamber.

I hadn’t planned to post anything until Paul got ants in his pants over my avatar. But that’s besides the point.

This is a thread on politics, I have no idea what your political stance is, but your response is typical of left wing bigotry. Call me a cunt, start a campaign to have me removed by the mods, I really don’t care, it only shows your inability to reason and engage. I can promise you there are many here that do share my concerns, but can’t be arsed to deal with the backlash of the TEF easily offended lefties.

I can still remember those of you who threw your toys out of the perambulator when a certain ‘fascist’ was appointed our manager, and you vowed to stay away. The good times came, and you didn’t stay away. Hot air and no trousers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 08:09:41
You aren't going to get banned just because you're a detestable cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 08:25:07
An obscure article from activist hub (very left wing) and Upworthy aren’t exactly inspiring. I’m not saying there having been terrorists that are ‘white Christian ’ etc, but are you seriously suggesting there is anything like the epidemic of Islamic terrorist and rape gangs? There is a problem with catholic priests, but there is a huge problem with Islamic males in the West. Undeniably so.

What’s amusing is that you’ve gone fishing for these untrustworthy and obscure websites to try and prove some sort of point. What is your point? You are making a defence for the rape of British children by Islamic males by linking a website highlighting jimmy Saville? 🧐 you are certainly no solicitor.

[/quote

Oh get a grip. I'm showing you that there are problems with all races and religions. You choose to apportion blame on one religion for all the worlds problems which is completely untrue. You are just another bigotted racist.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 08:27:46
What's your thoughts on Christianity, Hobodan?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 08:28:21
Where is my safe space? I want to live in my echo chamber.

I hadn’t planned to post anything until Paul got ants in his pants over my avatar. But that’s besides the point.

This is a thread on politics, I have no idea what your political stance is, but your response is typical of left wing bigotry. Call me a cunt, start a campaign to have me removed by the mods, I really don’t care, it only shows your inability to reason and engage. I can promise you there are many here that do share my concerns, but can’t be arsed to deal with the backlash of the TEF easily offended lefties.

I can still remember those of you who threw your toys out of the perambulator when a certain ‘fascist’ was appointed our manager, and you vowed to stay away. The good times came, and you didn’t stay away. Hot air and no trousers.

So much hypocrisy in this quote. I'm open to healthy debate - you clearly aren't.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 09:48:18
What's your thoughts on Christianity, Hobodan?
I imagine as they those practicing tend to be broadly white (at least in the closeted world of the British bigot) I imagine he is fairly benign about it.

Never ceases to amaze me just how many bigots claim to be experts in Islam whilst displaying a frightening lack of self awareness, beyond spouting parrot like the writings of certain right wing media outlets....

I am presently working on a site with a long standing association with the Catholic church and some of the stories of what happened there over the years are truly horrific, should I take the whole faith thus and portray myself as some sort of enlightened social warrior on social media, probably not but then again I am capable of independent thought....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 10:41:13
I imagine as they those practicing tend to be broadly white (at least in the closeted world of the British bigot) I imagine he is fairly benign about it.

Never ceases to amaze me just how many bigots claim to be experts in Islam whilst displaying a frightening lack of self awareness, beyond spouting parrot like the writings of certain right wing media outlets....

I am presently working on a site with a long standing association with the Catholic church and some of the stories of what happened there over the years are truly horrific, should I take the whole faith thus and portray myself as some sort of enlightened social warrior on social media, probably not but then again I am capable of independent thought....

What has skin colour got to do with ideology? You are showing your pre conceived ignorance.
Yes there are many people that have committed horrible crimes that have hidden under the Christian / Jewish / sheikh faiths etc. But what we read in the Quran / Hadith is disturbing, and literally encourages Muslims to lie, rape and kill Christians and Jews. I’m sure if you don’t have time to dig deep into the Islamic holy books, you can still find out quickly the distrurbimg messages of its founder, and the crimes he committed. Stark contrast to other religious ideology and certainly polar opposite to the message Jesus offered.

Asking for my opinion on other religions is pure ‘what aboutery’, it’s a diversion tactic that is commonly used, but is of zero use to a debate.

Ofcourse everyone should be judged individually, but it is NO coincidence that the common theme of these rape gangs is a certain ideology, the common theme of terrorism is a certain ideology. Ofcourse there are ‘muslims’ that don’t even read their texts or understand Islam, but for the fanatics that do, the text is there for them to apply the oppressive and violent teachings of Muhammed and who aspire to live his example. Muslims need educating about Islam, and so does every community that accepts Islam. There are some people who have the balls to openly challenge such despicable texts, and there are those of you who don’t understand Islam one iota but just want to be seen as ‘the good guy’, ‘I must defend any minority’ types. That’s fine, you carry on, but we both know what generation will be branded the generation of cowards in the future.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 11:10:13
I'm "on the left" if I were labelled but I have no fondness for Abrahamic religions, so as far as I'm concerned there is no Left/Muslim alliance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 11:49:20
Regardless of all this all the problems of the world are clearly going to be solved by some fucknugget changing their avatar on a sparsely frequented, minority interest football forum to something mildly irritating to liberals.

Are you actually doing anything about the great evil you see Hobodan or just enjoying the wind up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 13:21:06
Stark contrast to other religious ideology and certainly polar opposite to the message Jesus offered.


And THAT is what I was looking for. There was no whataboutery in my question whatsoever. I was looking to expose something and you've served up your ignorance on a plate.

You claim to know so much about Islam. If you were so knowledgeable you would be aware that Islamic fundamentals are based on the Pentateuch. The EXACT SAME Pentateuch that Christian fundamentals are based on. Do you even know what the Pentateuch is? Google is your friend. Islam just another Abrahamic faith, right alongside Christianity and Judaism. It's telling that you mention Jeebus as well because Muslims also believe in Jeebus, and his message, and that he was a prophet sent by god. Speak with Muslims about jeebus and they will use PBUH when mentioning his name, just as they do with Mo. I can only assume that you didn't know that, despite your claims of being so knowledgeable. I can't see why you would say something so stupid otherwise.

Jesus's message? Full of love and kittens, while also acting like a narcissistic prick AND, according to the bible, he endorsed the hateful old laws (old testament). The same stuff that helps fuel Islamic extremism. It's something that Christians tend to overlook and ignorant fuckwits that don't know nearly as much as they claim to are unaware of. All over the world people are persecuted by Christians that are acting in accordance with their doctrine. The Christian doctrine is just as, if not more, vile and intolerant than the Quran is. Thankfully, Christians tend to follow a nice and fluffy interpretation of it but guess what, Muslims also tend to follow a nice and fluffy interpretation of their particular flavour of Abrahamic nonsense. You, however, only choose to focus on Islam. Fuck off.

To claim that Islam is in stark contrast with Christianity shows that you have NO FUCKING IDEA what you are banging on about. It's a remarkably ignorant thing to say. It's laughable that you can claim to be so knowledgeable while being unaware of something so fundamental. I do know my onions, pal. If you really do know more than 99.8 percent of the people here as you claim, then I am part of the 0.2 percent that does know more than you do. The idiotic comment that I have quoted, however, tells me that you don't know nearly as much as you think you do.

I remember having a discussion with you before about immigration regarding Muslims. Proper sensationalist daily mail type stuff. You were fucking clueless in that as well. Regurgitating 'facts and figures' that you were clearly unable or unwilling to apply critical thinking toward. Stuff that was just plain factually incorrect. Again, proper daily mail type stuff. Also, once you do start mentioning immigration then you begin targeting Muslims as people and not just the doctrine, at which point you lose any right to claim that you are being reasonable.

You're right when you mention the left shouting down people being critical of Islam. As an antitheist myself, it gets on my fucking tits, and some people on here are guilty of it. The thing is, though, that these people are mostly responding as a reaction to those that are genuinely bigoted. Such as the Tommy Robinsons of the world that claim to be challenging the doctrine, which would be fair enough, but also standing in the street telling people that the Muslims living there want to kill them. Cunts like him, and yourself, are much of the reason that debate can't be had. Cunts like him, and yourself, are part of the problem.

Don't try to claim to be a centrist, I can see right through it. I debate with people on Islam (and other religions) on a daily basis. I debate with Muslims on a daily basis, the good and the bad. I encounter the regressive left on a daily basis, the far right and everything in between. As I said, I know my onions and it is glaringly obvious to me that you are fuelled by ignorance and intolerance.

So, in short, get fucked.

Actually, no. Don't get fucked. I look forward to your next instalment for another opportunity to laugh and point at your ignorant fuckwittery.

Polar opposite to Christianity? Christ on a fucking bike.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 13:32:24
I think what you are trying to say flasheart is that Islam and Christianity are two cheeks of the same arse


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 13:35:26
I think what you are trying to say flasheart is that Islam and Christianity are two cheeks of the same arsr.

Very much so. And when somebody chooses to attack one and not the other, then it raises questions regarding their motives.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 13:42:42
Very much so. And when somebody chooses to attack one and not the other, then it raises questions regarding their motives.
Hobodan does raise some interesting points though. I think as a nation we have been afraid to tackle some issues so as not to be seen as racist and some take full advantage of it. It wasn't long ago that we couldn't talk about immigration without being racists.
The world is moving fast and our politicians and judiciary are playing catch up. Evil bastards will always try and be a step ahead regardless of creed or colour.
I think we are seeing a reaction to the perceived pandering to minority groups. I don't agree with the reaction but I'm not surprised by it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 13:49:01
Marmite on toast


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 13:50:03
Hobodan does raise some interesting points though. I think as a nation we have been afraid to tackle some issues so as not to be seen as racist and some take full advantage of it. It wasn't long ago that we couldn't talk about immigration without being racists.
The world is moving fast and our politicians and judiciary are playing catch up. Evil bastards will always try and be a step ahead regardless of creed or colour.
I think we are seeing a reaction to the perceived pandering to minority groups. I don't agree with the reaction but I'm not surprised by it.

Absolutely, and it gets on my fucking tits. One can't mention it without being branded a bigot. I've been branded a liar on here for mentioning verses that actually do exist in the Quran. I just gave up. What's the point? I'd rather debate a Muslim than a lefty apologist. The Muslim is likely to actually have a debate with you. The regressive left will just close down any chance of a debate straight away with accusations of bigotry or whatever. A little snippet: The term 'regressive left' was actually coined by a Muslim that is equally frustrated by it.

And it's all not helped by the far right suplying them with ammunition.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 15:55:02
And THAT is what I was looking for. There was no whataboutery in my question whatsoever. I was looking to expose something and you've served up your ignorance on a plate.

You claim to know so much about Islam. If you were so knowledgeable you would be aware that Islamic fundamentals are based on the Pentateuch. The EXACT SAME Pentateuch that Christian fundamentals are based on. Do you even know what the Pentateuch is? Google is your friend. Islam just another Abrahamic faith, right alongside Christianity and Judaism. It's telling that you mention Jeebus as well because Muslims also believe in Jeebus, and his message, and that he was a prophet sent by god. Speak with Muslims about jeebus and they will use PBUH when mentioning his name, just as they do with Mo. I can only assume that you didn't know that, despite your claims of being so knowledgeable. I can't see why you would say something so stupid otherwise.

Jesus's message? Full of love and kittens, while also acting like a narcissistic prick AND, according to the bible, he endorsed the hateful old laws (old testament). The same stuff that helps fuel Islamic extremism. It's something that Christians tend to overlook and ignorant fuckwits that don't know nearly as much as they claim to are unaware of. All over the world people are persecuted by Christians that are acting in accordance with their doctrine. The Christian doctrine is just as, if not more, vile and intolerant than the Quran is. Thankfully, Christians tend to follow a nice and fluffy interpretation of it but guess what, Muslims also tend to follow a nice and fluffy interpretation of their particular flavour of Abrahamic nonsense. You, however, only choose to focus on Islam. Fuck off.

To claim that Islam is in stark contrast with Christianity shows that you have NO FUCKING IDEA what you are banging on about. It's a remarkably ignorant thing to say. It's laughable that you can claim to be so knowledgeable while being unaware of something so fundamental. I do know my onions, pal. If you really do know more than 99.8 percent of the people here as you claim, then I am part of the 0.2 percent that does know more than you do. The idiotic comment that I have quoted, however, tells me that you don't know nearly as much as you think you do.

I remember having a discussion with you before about immigration regarding Muslims. Proper sensationalist daily mail type stuff. You were fucking clueless in that as well. Regurgitating 'facts and figures' that you were clearly unable or unwilling to apply critical thinking toward. Stuff that was just plain factually incorrect. Again, proper daily mail type stuff. Also, once you do start mentioning immigration then you begin targeting Muslims as people and not just the doctrine, at which point you lose any right to claim that you are being reasonable.

You're right when you mention the left shouting down people being critical of Islam. As an antitheist myself, it gets on my fucking tits, and some people on here are guilty of it. The thing is, though, that these people are mostly responding as a reaction to those that are genuinely bigoted. Such as the Tommy Robinsons of the world that claim to be challenging the doctrine, which would be fair enough, but also standing in the street telling people that the Muslims living there want to kill them. Cunts like him, and yourself, are much of the reason that debate can't be had. Cunts like him, and yourself, are part of the problem.

Don't try to claim to be a centrist, I can see right through it. I debate with people on Islam (and other religions) on a daily basis. I debate with Muslims on a daily basis, the good and the bad. I encounter the regressive left on a daily basis, the far right and everything in between. As I said, I know my onions and it is glaringly obvious to me that you are fuelled by ignorance and intolerance.

So, in short, get fucked.

Actually, no. Don't get fucked. I look forward to your next instalment for another opportunity to laugh and point at your ignorant fuckwittery.

Polar opposite to Christianity? Christ on a fucking bike.



I’m embarrassed for you. You have such little knowledge whatsoever of Christianity or Islam. It really is a case of you going back to your books to engage your brain. You’re too emotional to have any form of debate with, typical of left wing bigotry. Feels over facts for you.

Here’s something to your intellect, get your popcorn ready..

https://youtu.be/PAcR9FzYqhE

https://youtu.be/Uem_0GQP-zY


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 15:58:54
Show me which part of what I said was wrong.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 16:06:45
A youtube video?

Are you fucking stupid or something?

*Edit That video is funny, though. "Jesus condemned prostitution". While having sex with a prostitute. Are you a Christian. Hobodan? I suppose you must be to post a preachy video like that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 16:15:59
You obviously can’t be arsed to read the religious books of of Islam and Christianity, I’m trying to make it simple for you, otherwise we will have pages of compatibility text between the two. I know you have no intention of going deep into both texts (despite having a strong opinion), no matter what proof or evidence were to be shoved under your nose, I suspect you’d stick to your guns and march on with you opinion as the literal definition of a bigot would do so.

“Jesus had sex with a prostitute” , that’s a very bold claim you are making, do you have evidence or are you parroting what your lefty mates down the pub have told you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 16:18:07
Why don't you show me which part of what I said was wrong? Are you able to?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 16:22:50
Why don’t you show me which part of what I said was wrong? Are you able to?

You are claiming “Jesus had sex with a prostitute”, it’s down to you to produce solid evidence that this is the case.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 16:34:09
Actually. I misspoke then. I don't know he had sex with a prostitute, but he did have a prostitute as a girlfriend.

Don't try to sidetrack me, though. You said that I knew nothing in reply to my original post, the long one. So, I will ask you again. Where in that post was I wrong? This is the 3rd time I've asked now. Are you going to keep on avoiding the question?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 17:09:07
“A prostitute as a girlfriend”, it depends on your definition of ‘girlfriend’, there is no evidence to suggest Jesus had an intimate relationship with Mary Magdalene, but of course he loved her as he appeared to ‘love everyone’, and therin is the basic synopsis of Christianity.

You are asking me to “which part of what I said is wrong”, yet all you have done is rant about them both being abrahamic religions (true), that Muslims believe in Jesus (kind of true), that Christianity is more vile than the Quran (nonsense), that Jesus endorsed the laws of the Old Testament (in some cases yes, but what don’t you like about the Ten Commandments? And in some cases no), you’ve compared me to Tommy Robinson (that’s your call), declared your allegiance to atheism, and basically got a bit emotional.

When you back up some of your claims I’ll be in a position to oppose them (if necessary), but you haven’t, you’ve just made a few bizarre statements.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 17:18:21
"that Christianity is more vile than the Quran (nonsense). That's not a rebuttal, that's just naysaying."

"that Jesus endorsed the laws of the Old Testament (in some cases yes, but what don’t you like about the Ten Commandments? And in some cases no)" - Huh?

So you are basically saying that I was correct then? Asides from the bit where you have no real response?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 17:19:50
"declared your allegiance to atheism"

That's a weird way of putting it. Nobody has an allegiance to atheism. I am an atheist, though, yes. So what?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 17:24:48
Anyway, fuck this. It's gaming o'clock.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 17:25:15
"that Christianity is more vile than the Quran (nonsense). That's not a rebuttal, that's just naysaying."

"that Jesus endorsed the laws of the Old Testament (in some cases yes, but what don’t you like about the Ten Commandments? And in some cases no)" - Huh?

So you are basically saying that I was correct then? Asides from the bit where you have no real response?

What is there to rebut? You have offered nothing to show that Christianity is “more vile than Islam” why do you assume this? What evidence has given you this position? Please at least show something as to why you hold this view?

What do you not understand about Jesus ‘endorsing’ some parts of the Old Testament and absolving others?

“So you are basically saying that I was correct then?”  That is very wishful thinking.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 17:26:05
Anyway, fuck this. It's gaming o'clock.

Awesome. Enjoy your game.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 17:28:43
Oh bless you Paul. You’re easily offended aren’t you
Not offended at all, but as someone who's consistently posted hard right propaganda on here, seemed too good an opportunity to miss to point out that your avatar that is directly derived from Nazi propaganda, repurposing an old anti-Semitic lie to attack Muslims. What took me aback slightly was that you weren't at all ashamed by that, indeed you seem to be proud of it.

And yes I'm well aware that you did this deliberately in the hope someone would "bite" to give you an excuse to pour out your bile - please carry on, you're doing a fine job of proving just how "centrist" your rehashed Nazism really is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 17:54:37
Paul, you really aren’t giving me anything to respond to, you are just hurling insults and making wild accusation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 18:02:14
Out of sensitivity to you Paul, I have made the decision to change my avatar to a harmless pussy cat. I apologise if you were offended by my avatar actions previously.

Dan


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 18:02:33
I was the one who brought up the the "Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Mohammadism, maybe Zoroastranism and others)" are a pain
These religions are very absolutist, i.e. the books are facts, God is fact, we cannot change these facts.
It does not matter what flavour they are , it's for people like ourselves , from old marxists like me to social dems, to centrists, to far right Etonians, to say nothing is absolute, we can question everything.




Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 18:04:04
Why don’t you show me which part of what I said was wrong? Are you able to?

You are claiming “Jesus had sex with a prostitute”, it’s down to you to produce solid evidence that this is the case.

Can you provide any solid evidence to support anything in the bible - hint I suspect you will probably be on for some academic reward of you can.... 😂

Have we ever had a Christian zealot on here.... Mods, can we keep him....

Btw this has been big news up here over the last few days, l am taking this as irrefutable proof that everyone in the Sally Army is dangerous to kids....

https://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/crime/guilty-blackpool-based-salvation-army-trio-convicted-of-historical-sex-abuse-1-9077596

(Actually I am not because that would be an extremely immature and blinkered thing to do)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 18:09:20
Can you provide any solid evidence to support anything in the bible - hint I suspect you will probably be on for some academic reward of you can.... 😂

Have we ever had a Christian zealot on here.... Mods, can we keep him....

I am not making any claims about the bible. Please show where I have? I have questioned some wild theories from other posters if that’s what you’re referring to?

“Can we keep him”  I’ve been registered on the TEF for 11 years, I don’t see why that should change?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 18:14:15
Out of sensitivity to you Paul, I have made the decision to change my avatar to a harmless pussy cat. I apologise if you were offended by my avatar actions previously.

Dan
I think you are getting a little needy and attention seeking now.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 18:14:32
https://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/crime/guilty-blackpool-based-salvation-army-trio-convicted-of-historical-sex-abuse-1-9077596

Despicable. But what is your point? Is this more ‘what aboutery’? Is this your evidence that Christians are on par with Islam when it comes to child sex grooming gangs? Seriously?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 18:16:56
I think you are getting a little needy and attention seeking now.....

Yeah, I’ve always felt the need to have attention from a few hairy arsed TEF members. What is your reason for posting here?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 18:20:58
Out of sensitivity to you Paul, I have made the decision to change my avatar to a harmless pussy cat. I apologise if you were offended by my avatar actions previously.

Dan

Cats are fucking cunts, you bellend


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 18:26:31
https://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/crime/guilty-blackpool-based-salvation-army-trio-convicted-of-historical-sex-abuse-1-9077596

Despicable. But what is your point? Is this more ‘what aboutery’? Is this your evidence that Christians are on par with Islam when it comes to child sex grooming gangs? Seriously?
I'd imagine the Catholic church and church of England are the two biggest paedophile rings in the UK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 18:30:41
Yeah, I’ve always felt the need to have attention from a few hairy arsed TEF members. What is your reason for posting here?

If you weren’t trying to get a reaction you wouldn’t have chosen a deliberately provocative avatar. You can’t really claim innocence on that one


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 19:30:30
I'd imagine the Catholic church and church of England are the two biggest paedophile rings in the UK.

Indeed.

I'd also suggest that Catholics and Protestants have probably caused more deaths and injuries through terrorist acts in the past 100 years than any by Islamic Fundamentalists.  both are clearly equally as bad as each other.

Go further back in our own history and both perspectives of the Christian religion have caused untold amounts of pain and misery, even limited to jut these shores.

Religion's are all pretty despicable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 19:53:10
There's other aspects as well such as the RC churches stance on contraception. Already poor people are being told that they can't use contraception and, of course, kids are being born into abject poverty. The slums in Manilla are a prime example, and it's so unavoidable.

There's a very simple solution that will help ease the situation significantly but, nope, the church is having none of it. Wankers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, March 25, 2018, 23:05:14
Hobodan, a few questions;

Have you by chance bought/borrowed and read Tommy Robinson's book?

Have you ever marched with the EDL/BF/NF or similar group?

Would you consider yourself primarily racist towards one particular area of society?

Have you ever heard of The Crusades (I'm sorry but it's relevant)?

What is your opinion on same sex marriage?

When walking/out shopping with another woman, do you mostly;

a) Walk behind her.
b) Walk alongside her.
c) Walk infront of her.
or
d) Something totally different.

What are your thoughts on "Lizard People"?

Have you ever eaten a Lemon Drop chili pepper whole (I recommend it)?

Do you understand the differences and conflicts of interest surrounding Israel and Palestine?

Do you understand the paramount historical reasons in relation to the question above?

Are you a Flerfer?

Do you know the differences between Ar41, Po210 & Pu239

Do you enjoy the delightful taste of Halloumi cheese?

Cheers,

Bamboo


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, March 26, 2018, 06:00:27
Now that Corbyn has decided there is an issue with anti semitism in the Labour party will he now take back the peerage from chakrabati after her whitewash.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Monday, March 26, 2018, 07:52:28
Fucking get rid of him.

I completely agree. 

So many of the issues of today are complex and uncertain.  Listening to other people's alternative points of view just adds to the uncertainty in my mind and threatens to undermine my most cherished beliefs.

Chalkies Shorts keeps banging on about different points of view adding to the interest on a forum, but his stupid opinion can be safely ignored because I've decided to arbitrarily label him a fascist cunt.  And also a commie stooge who should fuck off to Russia if he likes it so much.

I don't want interest, I want comfort and certainty.  In fact I demand it as my fundamental human right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, March 26, 2018, 08:50:19
Indeed.

I'd also suggest that Catholics and Protestants have probably caused more deaths and injuries through terrorist acts in the past 100 years than any by Islamic Fundamentalists.  both are clearly equally as bad as each other.

Go further back in our own history and both perspectives of the Christian religion have caused untold amounts of pain and misery, even limited to jut these shores.

Religion's are all pretty despicable.

I think there are genuine problems in organised religion but I'm not sure that stereotypes are helpful.  Joseph Stalin who avowedly sought to commit religion to history was not exactly averse to a little gentle co-ercion


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, March 26, 2018, 08:54:36
I'd imagine the Catholic church and church of England are the two biggest paedophile rings in the UK.
They certainly have serious issues that I do not mean to diminish but let's not beat about the bush, parents are the biggest perpetrators of child abuse.  Not surprising if you think about it but in my view that is also a bigger betrayal than abuse by the local priest or scoutmaster or other stereotype.

One fact that is clear across the board: perpetrators of child abuse and neglect are most often the child's own parents. According to NCANDS, a 2005 study showed that 79.4% of child abusers were the parents, and the next largest pool of abusers consisted of unmarried partners of the parents of child victims. A whopping 40% of child victims were abused by their mothers acting alone, and a disturbing 17.3% were abused by both parents

poor, poor kids


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, March 26, 2018, 11:46:06
I think there are genuine problems in organised religion but I'm not sure that stereotypes are helpful.  Joseph Stalin who avowedly sought to commit religion to history was not exactly averse to a little gentle co-ercion

Alright then, Religion and group ideologies.

I am probably not the best person to have this debate, I actually couldn't give much of a toss about National borders.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, March 26, 2018, 12:10:45
Yeh, group ideology, whether religious, political or other, probably does cover it.

I'm with you  (let's form our own group  ;) )


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, March 26, 2018, 12:11:59

I'm with you  (let's form our own group  ;) )

TEFism. The core tenet being that everybody is a cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, March 26, 2018, 12:32:00
Yes but only TEF-ists are the chosen cunts


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, March 26, 2018, 13:03:12
Yes but only TEF-ists are the chosen cunts

Oh, definitely. We are god's chosen cunts. Even Hobodan.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, March 26, 2018, 13:08:29
As there is no God, I am a cunt by choice.  I am happy to share my piece of the world with any Cunt that wants to share it with me and vice versa.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, March 26, 2018, 13:09:13
Heathen!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, March 26, 2018, 13:10:22
and before Hobo goes all white christian culture under attack on me, I fully appreciate my world view is a minority one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, March 26, 2018, 13:25:07
If there was/is a Cunt God, what would be the physical representation of said being? Maybe it is one living amongst us today? I feel a TEFist poll coming on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, March 26, 2018, 13:32:32
Just to nudge God aside for a moment - our mutual ‘friend’ Trump has expelled 60 Russian diplomats, followed by various EU countries also expelling diplomats.

There you go, Putin. Take that!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, March 26, 2018, 13:33:26
As there is no God, I am a cunt by choice.  I am happy to share my piece of the world with any Cunt that wants to share it with me and vice versa.
and before Hobo goes all white christian culture under attack on me, I fully appreciate my world view is a minority one.
but its certainly not a solitary view


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, March 26, 2018, 13:40:08
Just to put my two penneth in the religious spat. I can fully understand, and appreciate, any religion which is based purely on faith. What I can’t abide is those Creationists who insist the Earth is only 3000 years old despite the overwhelming physical evidence that that view is total bollocks.

Adam and Eve, me hairy arse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, March 26, 2018, 14:10:38
Just to put my two penneth in the religious spat. I can fully understand, and appreciate, any religion which is based purely on faith. What I can’t abide is those Creationists who insist the Earth is only 3000 years old despite the overwhelming physical evidence that that view is total bollocks.

Adam and Eve, me hairy arse.

You'd like Ken Ham. A hardcore YEC that insists that dinosaurs were on the ark and used to live alongside people. He even reckons that the Roman gladiators used to fight against dinosaurs in the arenas. He comes out with all sorts of bizarre shit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, March 26, 2018, 14:35:11
Right now there seems to be an effort by Trump to kick off a debate about the voting rules.  He basically got lambasted by his media "supporters" for signing off on a $1.3 trillion spending bill, largely because it included lots of Democrat desires, but also because it increased funding to the largest Miiltary in the world.

This utterly ignores the fact that this is precisely how democracy is supposed to work, it is not supposed to deliver "super" majorities.  It is supposed to be about compromise, precisely because every aspect of life needs to be addressed.  Minority views do deserve to be heard and considered, regardless of which side of the debate.  Bring this back to the UK, Hobo has views, some might be extreme, but we need to know what they are, what drives them (usually fear) and how best to put in place policies that reflect a broad view.  people are then supposed to Trust that their views are considered, they see negotiation and we have to accept we won't always get what we want.

Right now it seems everyone has entrenched into a state where only the things I want are good and everything else is bad, so I don;t trust anyone.

Take the jobs for the working class thing - it's utter bollocks that illegal immigration has any impact, and even if it did, fuck it.  Automation is the bogey man here, but he has been the bogey man since the bloody wheel was invented, or someone sharpened a stone and tied it to a stick.  The whole point is we are a species where we are because we innovate.  We can;t sit around pandering to people telling them that we can protect the job they once had.  We can't blame it on a bogey man, we need to understand how best to help provide people with opportunities to do something, or nothing, with their lives, whatever their choice will be.  Think of all the people working at Toys R Us - the worst thing anyone can do is try and find them all jobs in retail.  Some may, but the writing is on the wall, it is time to move on.  It's not some recent man off a boat from Eritrea's fault, it isn't anyone's fault, it's what happens in our species, we innovate, we change, we push on.  The 1950's are not coming back, there isn't a time machine and we shouldn't want there to be one.

This is where Govt's are failing, they are allowing themselves to pander to fear, for their own fear of losing their job.  get over it, your part may be to only serve the public for 4 or 5 years and move on.  Instead, work out how to provide opportunities.  Outside the fact that physical space restricts population movement into any arbitrary drawing of national borders, the reality is we can fill up any of those nations to the brim and they can still succeed.

The Human Condition of wanting to belong to something and have meaning is the problem I find it harder to solve, and unfortunately the biggest challenge we face.  If there were no borders and everyone just let other people believe what they want to believe, and instead we all just went about innovating and enjoying life, we could all be cunts together.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, March 26, 2018, 15:17:54
Could be Stormy times ahead for the Trump.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Monday, March 26, 2018, 15:19:54
Could be Stormy times ahead for the Trump.
Pretty sure it was a Stormy time that got him into this mess!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, March 26, 2018, 15:49:05
I doubt Melania married him for his virtuous nature, and I doubt anyone who voted for him didn't already think he'd have plenty of affairs in his past, beyond what was already known.  The only person this could turn out bad for is his lawyer, and he'll be dropped if that becomes a problem.

Longer term though, if his lawyer ever does into trouble down the road, that could create a problem if he started fighting for his liberty under pressure of a significant jail term I guess.

It's a bit like watching the Godafather Trilogy, but with one of the Chuckle Brothers playing the lead role.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Sunday, April 1, 2018, 22:09:45
I don't understand this anti Semitic malarkey. Why? Is it pro Palestinian? Can you be pro Palestinian but not anti Semitic? I'm struggling why being supportive of one thing assumes you hate the other.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, April 2, 2018, 04:13:59
I think it’s more to do with capitalism than religion. Historically, Jews weren’t allowed to own property so they put their efforts into finance - banking, money lending etc. That mural that has got Corbyn all hot under the collar depicts a world ruled by the moneyed Jews built upon the efforts of the non Jew.

I think there is also the Masons all seeing eye in there somewhere. So, in essence, Labours hatred of capitalism - at least this version of the Labour Party - has made them somewhat blind to anti semitism. It’s a strange position when a hardish left leaning party is appearing quite fascist.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, April 2, 2018, 10:04:13
Sadly there's always been an element of the hard left that has found the anti-capitalist/populist nature of anti-Semitism attractive as per AB's post. Then from the 70s there was the pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel sentiment which bundled together into "anti-Zionism" i.e. a criticism of/opposition to Israel's behaviour, or even existence, as a nation state, largely stemming from their behaviour toward Palestinians but also their position as a world actor, for those on the left who see anti-Americanism as fundamental tenet. Sadly, some of the wilder fringes find it difficult to stop anti-Zionism (criticism/hostility to Israel) from collapsing into anti-Semitism (hostility to Jews as a people). I don't believe for a minute that Corbyn is anti-Semitic but he has shown a complete lack of leadership in dealing with those elements on the left who are. And in doing so, his failure of leadership has allowed what should have been a 5-minute Daily Mail wonder to become a serious problem for Labour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 2, 2018, 10:22:13
Sadly there's always been an element of the hard left that has found the anti-capitalist/populist nature of anti-Semitism attractive as per AB's post. Then from the 70s there was the pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel sentiment which bundled together into "anti-Zionism" i.e. a criticism of/opposition to Israel's behaviour, or even existence, as a nation state, largely stemming from their behaviour toward Palestinians but also their position as a world actor, for those on the left who see anti-Americanism as fundamental tenet. Sadly, some of the wilder fringes find it difficult to stop anti-Zionism (criticism/hostility to Israel) from collapsing into anti-Semitism (hostility to Jews as a people). I don't believe for a minute that Corbyn is anti-Semitic but he has shown a complete lack of leadership in dealing with those elements on the left who are. And in doing so, his failure of leadership has allowed what should have been a 5-minute Daily Mail wonder to become a serious problem for Labour.

It's the little things like the Israeli's shooting 700 odd Palestinians on the Gaza/Israel border..... which get the leftists hot under the collar.

I've no wish to enter into the politics of the middle east it's too Byzantine....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, April 2, 2018, 13:06:50
It's the little things like the Israeli's shooting 700 odd Palestinians on the Gaza/Israel border..... which get the leftists hot under the collar.
And you've just repeated the whole fucking canard. It is quite possible to be critical of the appalling conduct of the Israeli government while not being anti-Semitic or even anti-Zionist.

EDIT: Equally I don't think you have to be a "leftist" to be appalled by the blatant disregard for innocent civilians shown by both sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, April 3, 2018, 08:49:31
What the Isreali state is doing to the Palenstinians is indefensible. If thinking that makes me anti-semetic, then I'm proudly anti-semetic.

Can you imagine the British government building a wall around Belfast in the 70s and regularly killing thousands of Irish civilians? It's the same thing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 3, 2018, 09:17:17
And you've just repeated the whole fucking canard. It is quite possible to be critical of the appalling conduct of the Israeli government while not being anti-Semitic or even anti-Zionist.

EDIT: Equally I don't think you have to be a "leftist" to be appalled by the blatant disregard for innocent civilians shown by both sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

Plus as its apparently become so black and white I assume its entirely acceptable to claim loudly that anyone who doesn't condone what the Israeli state is doing is obviously Islamophobic....

No its not, but in the simplistic world we seem have fallen into - that would seem to reflect matters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, April 3, 2018, 09:18:04
What the Isreali state is doing to the Palenstinians is indefensible. If thinking that makes me anti-semetic, then I'm proudly anti-semetic.
No it doesn't. Please stop perpetuating this myth. It plays right into the hands of those who want to define this as a "You must support the government of Israel or you are anti-Jewish" debate which is a completely false framing of the argument.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, April 3, 2018, 12:32:35
What the Isreali state is doing to the Palenstinians is indefensible. If thinking that makes me anti-semetic, then I'm proudly anti-semetic.

Can you imagine the British government building a wall around Belfast in the 70s and regularly killing thousands of Irish civilians? It's the same thing.

Maybe not thousands and maybe not a concrete slab on the border itself, but I think the Republican supporters during that time would point you to things like Bloody Sunday and you had the "Peace" walls in Belfast.

Isreal is a State, not a religion.  Practicing Muslims do live there.  It may be one that people can point lots of faults with, but it is not the entire essence of being Jewish.  It is the religion that some on,  what should be, the fringe of the Socialist movement seem to have a problem with.  That is a problem.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 3, 2018, 12:48:08
It is the religion that some on,  what should be, the fringe of the Socialist movement seem to have a problem with.  That is a problem.

Is it? Maybe it is, however the present fuss seems much more base than that?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, April 3, 2018, 12:58:09
It should be nobody, but in reality it happens for some reason, so you'd want it to be a fringe thing, but the issue seems to be that it is more than that.  You'd certainly not want an elected MP to be thinking that way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, April 3, 2018, 13:30:34
It should be nobody, but in reality it happens for some reason, so you'd want it to be a fringe thing, but the issue seems to be that it is more than that.  You'd certainly not want an elected MP to be thinking that way.

I'd settle for an MP that thinks at all.

Clearly the current spat is an attempt by the right wing media to discredit Corbyn... they tried the Russian spy/traitor trick but it didn't stick.

Chums of the IRA and Hamas, has a bit more mileage, as JC does like to talk to people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, April 3, 2018, 17:53:30
Clearly the current spat is an attempt by the right wing media to discredit Corbyn... they tried the Russian spy/traitor trick but it didn't stick.
That's part of the reason it's receiving so much attention, compared to say Jacob Rees-Mogg's links with known anti-Semites in the far-right  (but posh) Traditional Britain Group, which don't make him anti-Semitic either but are much less tenuous than the connection with Corbyn personally. BUT there is substance to the allegations, even Momentum have now admitted there is a real problem with anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and Corbyn's ongoing failure to tackle this has made this an easy stick to beat him/Labour with.

There's a bitter irony though in the Daily Mail, the paper that led with the front page headline "Hurrah for the Blackshirts", having the gall to call anyone out for being anti-Semitic, whether well founded or not


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, April 4, 2018, 10:21:05
Apart from the fact that the Labour party is demonstrably less anti-Semitic than any other major party in the UK and levels of anti-Antisemitism have reduced since Corbyn became leader.

But that doesn't fit the narrative.

https://evolvepolitics.com/yougov-polls-show-anti-semitism-in-labour-has-actually-reduced-dramatically-since-jeremy-corbyn-became-leader/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 4, 2018, 10:34:27
Apart from the fact that the Labour party is demonstrably less anti-Semitic than any other major party in the UK and levels of anti-Antisemitism have reduced since Corbyn became leader.

But that doesn't fit the narrative.

https://evolvepolitics.com/yougov-polls-show-anti-semitism-in-labour-has-actually-reduced-dramatically-since-jeremy-corbyn-became-leader/

That's a little bit harsh on the Lib Dems, although you noting 'major party' probably discounts them anyway!

The true kicker in all this are all these people and media outlets baying about this who have precisely zero interest in antisemitism and actually support organisations with a large anti-Semitic membership - off the top of my head, one of May's bezzie mates writing an antisemitic piece that appeared on the front of the Telegraph - now conveniently forgotten.

But hey ho, there is an entirely unconnected election coming up and I suppose we should be pleased that the Tories are so rattled about this.

Personally I hope none of them win.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, April 4, 2018, 11:49:17
I did think about about changing the wording once I'd seen the data on the Libdems but thought it might rustle some centrist jimmies :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, April 4, 2018, 21:26:09
Bullshit Boris lying as usual then regarding porton down. The man is not a loveable buffoon at all. He's a devious evil bastard


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, April 4, 2018, 21:51:15
Bullshit Boris lying as usual then regarding porton down. The man is not a loveable buffoon at all. He's a devious evil bastard

He's the above the highest order of Cock Womble that is possibly available.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, April 5, 2018, 09:13:35
Scroll down this page and watch the video.

Video proof that Boris lied and the BBC are covering it up.

https://skwawkbox.org/2018/04/04/exclusive-smoking-gun-video-bbc-trying-to-help-boris-johnson-keep-his-job-sackborisjohnson/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 5, 2018, 10:02:54
Scroll down this page and watch the video.

Video proof that Boris lied and the BBC are covering it up.

https://skwawkbox.org/2018/04/04/exclusive-smoking-gun-video-bbc-trying-to-help-boris-johnson-keep-his-job-sackborisjohnson/

Whilst the basic premise is correct, although not exactly new news, Skwawkbox is to the left what Guido or Breitbart is to the right.

If the BBC have something to get their knickers in a twist about at the moment its some of the stuff that Carole Cadwalladr is digging up about certain prominent BBC 'journalists' hidden links to the Leave campaign (The Addison Club anyone?) and thus the impartiality of some of their reporting, especially when you consider their reporting of the whole Cambridge Analytica - Aggregate IQ - SCL story and compare it with Channel 4 and the reporting in much of the rest of the world - it was big news in Canada days before the BBC even mentioned it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, April 5, 2018, 10:37:12
I love how to beeb guy tried to claim they couldn't find the clip in which Boris lied.

Not tried youtube then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, April 5, 2018, 11:27:51
Blair forewarded the dodgy dossier claiming that Saddam continued "beyond doubt" to be producing WMD.

Ring a bell, Boris?

Two lying liars is no surprise but it is pitiful that we can no longer rely on the BBC to report simple facts.

Does it mean I now have to watch RT (Russia Today) just so that some fearful twats at the Beeb can keep their jobs and receive their knighthoods?

Kudos to Greg Dyke, Gavyn Davies, Andrew Gilligan and the late Dr David Kelly


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, April 6, 2018, 12:11:21
The position-taking of both sides to the Brexit debate in Ireland (N & S) is becoming very interesting.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/06/david-trimble-ireland-risks-provoking-paramilitaries-over-post-brexit-border

Starting to look, to me at least, as if the Unionist side is using the border issue as a tool to encourage the Republic of Ireland to consider leaving the EU as well.  Of course if they were to leave also, border issue = solved.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, April 6, 2018, 13:26:57
The position-taking of both sides to the Brexit debate in Ireland (N & S) is becoming very interesting.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/06/david-trimble-ireland-risks-provoking-paramilitaries-over-post-brexit-border

Starting to look, to me at least, as if the Unionist side is using the border issue as a tool to encourage the Republic of Ireland to consider leaving the EU as well.  Of course if they were to leave also, border issue = solved.
[/b]

I guess that's the biggest snagging point. I don't think RoI wants to leave the E.U. It quite possibly could be an even more difficult transition for them as they are not only tied via the E.U but also their Eurozone currency. This could be affected and have greater economical implications for them. For e.g If they reverted to the Punt it would be at a low value (for sometime I would guess) and that value would also impose on the average residents assets, like their home. Interests rates, mortgage debt and inflation would all rise. I would hazard a guess that unemployment would get worse (before it got better).

We could point to Argentina to see how being closed out of the market still affects them today. They may have had a low GDP (by defaulting) but 15+ years of pretty much full market lock out, still lingers on. Even though signs may have got better, more recently, many businesses are unwilling/cautious to plough funds into investment banking in Argentina.

This is my opinion and not an opinion poll; I think RoI likes being in the E.U and having the Euro also.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, April 6, 2018, 13:32:18
The position-taking of both sides to the Brexit debate in Ireland (N & S) is becoming very interesting.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/06/david-trimble-ireland-risks-provoking-paramilitaries-over-post-brexit-border

Starting to look, to me at least, as if the Unionist side is using the border issue as a tool to encourage the Republic of Ireland to consider leaving the EU as well.  Of course if they were to leave also, border issue = solved.

On my very first visit to Dublin in the late 90’s the taxi driver from the airport to our hotel took great delight in in asking us if we liked the motorway he was driving on. I thought it a bit strange but before I could answer he laughed and said you should as you’ve paid for it..... Well now that the Republic Of Ireland is now a net contributor to the EU and is getting itself slowy out of a Greek style financial hole (our £8b loan helped them lest we forget), it may actually be more advantageous to consider it an exit from the EU, after all it’s second biggest export market in 2016 was the U.K. @ $16.5b which is half the exports to the US @ $33.4b. Interestingly it’s top imports are from the U.K. $22.9b and the US @ $9.6b Let’s also remember the Irish initially voted not to ratify the treaty allowing the 10 newest members into the club. That is until the bully boys from Europe put pressure on them to vote again, not the only ones to have been lent on either. So much for democracy! Still you can maybe understand the carrion calls from the remainers and the EU at large for more referendums on our decision to leave. Yes, shitting themselves, of course this is IMHO.

https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/irl/#Exports


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, April 6, 2018, 13:33:52
I think you’re right.  There is broad support for EU membership in Ireland.  But that isn’t going to stop Unionists (like David Trimble, as in the article) using the border issue as a tool to bring the idea to the fore in to the debate south of the border.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, April 6, 2018, 13:39:48
I think you’re right.  There is broad support for EU membership in Ireland.  But that isn’t going to stop Unionists (like David Trimble, as in the article) using the border issue as a tool to bring the idea to the fore in to the debate south of the border.

Of course, the DUP will currently decide much of the direction of RoI on Brexit/Irexit. In any case, what sane Government would give their countries people any advisory say on what to do about it's future....  :pint: (more beer)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, April 6, 2018, 13:53:27
On my very first visit to Dublin in the late 90’s the taxi driver from the airport to our hotel took great delight in in asking us if we liked the motorway he was driving on. I thought it a bit strange but before I could answer he laughed and said you should as you’ve paid for it..... Well now that the Republic Of Ireland is now a net contributor to the EU and is getting itself slowy out of a Greek style financial hole (our £8b loan helped them lest we forget), it may actually be more advantageous to consider it an exit from the EU, after all it’s second biggest export market in 2016 was the U.K. @ $16.5b which is half the exports to the US @ $33.4b. Interestingly it’s top imports are from the U.K. $22.9b and the US @ $9.6b Let’s also remember the Irish initially voted not to ratify the treaty allowing the 10 newest members into the club. That is until the bully boys from Europe put pressure on them to vote again, not the only ones to have been lent on either. So much for democracy! Still you can maybe understand the carrion calls from the remainers and the EU at large for more referendums on our decision to leave. Yes, shitting themselves, of course this is IMHO.

https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/irl/#Exports


You have some good points and numbers there but simply, much of the infrastructure based within RoI is so because of their membership of the E.U. Companies currently there would very likely move their bases to countries within the E.U (hence my unemployment worsening comment). These are big companies like Google for instance. People in Ireland certainly would be worse off. Tourism would probably go up, which would be good for them but the increase would purely be for the same reasons we go to Turkey or Asia; you get more bang for your buck.

Investment wise though (i'm talking huge sums), big business will not touch it as there would be too much uncertainty. If you know anything about Investment Banking (or just banks in general), you'll know they are very slow to adopt to any changes. When major things happen they want to be sure of the stability of the product. To bring about that partial stability so to speak, for Ireland it would mean pegging the Punt to the GBP. That in itself though wouldn't necessarily be too stable, post-brexit. In effect it would be dragging Ireland economically back to around the 1970s. I don't think the people of Ireland particularly want that. Alas, they probably won't get any say on the matter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, April 6, 2018, 13:58:46
Don’t forget the big business’s that moved to ROI did so on the back of lower corporation tax, which run against the EU doctrine of stand alone rates that work against the rest of the EU. Outside the EU they can charge what they like.....


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 6, 2018, 17:56:10
I think you’re right.  There is broad support for EU membership in Ireland.  But that isn’t going to stop Unionists (like David Trimble, as in the article) using the border issue as a tool to bring the idea to the fore in to the debate south of the border.
JRM rolled this out a few weeks back, conveniently forgetting 1923 and the fact that RoI is a sovereign state and what we may aspire to is entirely irrelevant, in fact to many Irish the fact that we want them to leave will be a rallying cry to make sure they never do.

Just another deluded case of 'sorry chaps we have inadvertently done a massive shit in our own bed, would you mind most awfully doing something that has little benefit for yourselves to help us out'.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, April 6, 2018, 18:14:55
Just another deluded case of 'sorry chaps we have inadvertently done a massive shit in our own bed, would you mind most awfully doing something that has little benefit for yourselves to help us out'.

That is in essence, what I was alluding to. You just did it with much less sentences.  :D


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, April 6, 2018, 22:04:25
JRM rolled this out a few weeks back, conveniently forgetting 1923 and the fact that RoI is a sovereign state and what we may aspire to is entirely irrelevant, in fact to many Irish the fact that we want them to leave will be a rallying cry to make sure they never do.

This.

ROI to debate "freedom" from the EU to accommodate UK red lines?

In the ROI, "freedom" meant saying goodbye to centuries of military occupation by the UK.

I think it equally likely that the ROI will ask the UK to debate NI remaining in the CU and SM to maintain the GFA and for there to be a star wars-like, light touch border between NI and GB.

Notwithstanding plenty of hot air and acrimony over the conflicting principles, I perosnally now expect short and short to medium term economic factors to drive the outcome


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, April 7, 2018, 08:22:44
Irrespective of what you think if the pros & cons make sense to them they may do it. I’m also disappointed you’ve not thrown in the potato famine too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, April 7, 2018, 11:00:51
Irrespective of what you think if the pros & cons make sense to them they may do it. I’m also disappointed you’ve not thrown in the potato famine too.

I just knew you'd have to bring art into it in some way  :)

See: George Watts, Daniel MacDonald and for common ref. to famine see; Van Gogh.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, April 7, 2018, 11:27:27
You're a smart art, bamboo.  The Watts Gallery is just round the corner from me.

So long as the Liffey keeps flowing, our Irish friends will be just fine. :pint:

For the record odds on an Irexit before 2027 are 16-1.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, April 7, 2018, 12:33:52
It would never work, the Unicorns would struggle with the climate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, April 7, 2018, 16:17:50
You're a smart art, bamboo.  The Watts Gallery is just round the corner from me.

So long as the Liffey keeps flowing, our Irish friends will be just fine. :pint:

For the record odds on an Irexit before 2027 are 16-1.

Haha, such a play on words ;) That is pretty cool, I've never been but will do at some point.

Absolutely, they'll be right!  :pint:  :pint:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, April 10, 2018, 11:50:20
Ha ha, Labour shadow spokesperson for something or other describing their six tests for Brexit as "bollocks":

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/10/labour-minister-barry-gardiner-sorry-good-friday-agreement-shibboleth

Just to prove it's not just the Tories that don't know how to deal with this mess


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 10, 2018, 14:57:04
Ha ha, Labour shadow spokesperson for something or other describing their six tests for Brexit as "bollocks":

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/10/labour-minister-barry-gardiner-sorry-good-friday-agreement-shibboleth


To be fair Gardiner is more pro brexit than Johnson (and Corbyn!) and seems to share they complete misunderstanding of the issue in Ireland and their disregard for the Irish people.

Just to prove it's not just the Tories that don't know how to deal with this mess


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 12, 2018, 14:45:45
 So Jeremy wants a vote in Parliament, as to whether we should wade into Syria with Trump and Macron, and potentially trigger WW III.  May doesn't.  What say you TEF.... is the use of chemical weapons a red line that must have consequences  :hmmm:


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, April 12, 2018, 15:00:43
If it was that clear-cut May would go for a vote.

How much of this is about humanitarian issues I wonder.

I'm not a fan of supporting the World Police. I'm not a fan of genocide either.

I think it should go to the vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, April 12, 2018, 15:10:51
If it was that clear-cut May would go for a vote.

How much of this is about humanitarian issues I wonder.

I'm not a fan of supporting the World Police. I'm not a fan of genocide either.

I think it should go to the vote.

This.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, April 12, 2018, 15:56:24
Military intervention should always go to a vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, April 12, 2018, 16:40:16
There are rules to be followed when killing people at national level.
Guns and bombs are ok. Chemical weapons are not.

So the killing of more people for not killing people in the approved manner should of course be debated.

 :(



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Friday, April 13, 2018, 01:26:59
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0D3A5dnAqg

Good fun watch if you can be bothered. Think I got the right one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, April 13, 2018, 06:17:42
I obviously wouldn't want a war with Russia, or anybody for that matter. I can see how Assad needs to be stopped, though. It's a horrible call to make and one that should go to a vote.

Meanwhile, the Saudis continue to kill civilians in Yemen. With our weapons.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, April 13, 2018, 09:22:36
So we'll probably bomb Syria, which has already been bombing Syria with components that come from Britain. Many in favour will be brexiters who voted for that because of Syrian refugees that they don't want here. Surprise surprise there will be a whole lot more of them. All this led by a nutcase US president who does his work via twitter from an account that is more of a parody account than a parody account. It's fucking ridiculous and once Russia get involved will be a bloodbath (not that it isn't already)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 13, 2018, 09:30:14
I obviously wouldn't want a war with Russia, or anybody for that matter. I can see how Assad needs to be stopped, though. It's a horrible call to make and one that should go to a vote.

Meanwhile, the Saudis continue to kill civilians in Yemen. With our weapons.

Shhhh, don't mention that! Since 2010, Britain has sold arms to 22 of the 30 countries on the Tories very own human rights watch list

Its also quite possible that the chemical weapons being used are also ultimately from a UK source as Cameron granted export licences for various companies to export chemicals which can be combined to make such weapons to Syria 10 months after the uprising began.

For those who love a good old conspiracy to explain things...

https://twitter.com/Lepista/status/984167615831650304


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Friday, April 13, 2018, 09:30:49
So we'll probably bomb Syria, which has already been bombing Syria with components that come from Britain. Many in favour will be brexiters who voted for that because of Syrian refugees that they don't want here. Surprise surprise there will be a whole lot more of them. All this led by a nutcase US president who does his work via twitter from an account that is more of a parody account than a parody account. It's fucking ridiculous and once Russia get involved will be a bloodbath (not that it isn't already)
I agree, unfortunately correct on all counts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, April 13, 2018, 09:45:38
We know the world, inc. the UK, is deeply compromised by hypocritical realpolitik and I really don't get how blitzing a couple of military installations linked to chemical weapons would be such a departure.  It might not be right but what exactly is right?

I can see the attraction of leaving Nato and adopting a Swiss style neutrality with a Swiss style military spend but not sure the electorate (or even Corbyn) is ready to for this?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, April 13, 2018, 10:07:03
I don't buy the whole 'bombing Syria for bombing Syria' rhetoric. It's rather twee? (The word I'm looking for eludes me). There's a considerable difference between bombing civilians and bombing the military regime that bombed those civilians.

That's not to say I'm necessarily supportive of strikes, history shows it's ineffective, among other things. That particular 'argument', however, just doesn't do it for me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, April 13, 2018, 11:45:56
I can't for the life of me figure out how anyone can still be living in Syria.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, April 13, 2018, 12:19:24
You're right.  I read that they were mainly now in the EU, especially Italy and Germany - Hungary and the UK not so much.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, April 13, 2018, 12:28:24
It must be difficult for a lot of them to leave as they have jobs, houses, cars etc. Material possessions maybe but how will they support themselves and their families if they uproot and end up in another country where they don't even speak the language? It'll be hard enough even for those that do speak the language.

The Britain first types like to point out that they arrive with mobile phones etc. Well of course they fucking well do, they weren't living in caves. They have houses and lives just as we do, or at least they did until some cunt dropped a bomb on them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 13, 2018, 12:33:01
You're right.  I read that they were mainly now in the EU, especially Italy and Germany - Hungary and the UK not so much.

Its interesting that most of the vociferous supporters of this mission, which is apparently to ease suffering in Syria, from within the Tory party, are equally vociferous about not allowing refugees fleeing the conflict into the UK and cutting the aid budget....

Funny that!

The missiles we are planning to fire into Syria are about £800k each, let we have kids not being fed and homelessness through the roof and the NHS going down the shitter due to an apparent lack of money, amazing what May can find down the back of the settee when it suits?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 13, 2018, 13:39:12
The missiles we are planning to fire into Syria are about £800k each, let we have kids not being fed and homelessness through the roof and the NHS going down the shitter due to an apparent lack of money, amazing what May can find down the back of the settee when it suits?
Surely it would be cheaper to just fire the DUP at Syrian airfields? They definitely class as toxic weapons, so works well on the fitting response front too


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Friday, April 13, 2018, 15:19:18
Did anyone hear this interview?

https://order-order.com/2018/04/13/diane-abbott-car-crash-ww2-only-time-wed-back-military-action/
 (https://order-order.com/2018/04/13/diane-abbott-car-crash-ww2-only-time-wed-back-military-action/)

Long may she have a prominent role in Corbyn's "politburo"  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, April 13, 2018, 18:35:13
So while America, France, and much likely the U.K consider bombing the shit out of Syria (once again), the lead story on the opening news titles was Cliff fucking Richards!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Friday, April 13, 2018, 22:54:45
Hardly. A few cruise missiles on Syrian abandoned airports doesn’t quantify “bombing the shit” in my book.
I can’t see any reason for Assad using chemical weapons when ISIS and the rebels have all but been subdued; But we mere civilians will never be privileged to the evidence of our military services.
Ironically the American people that voted against Hiller Clinton did so because of her warmongering language regarding Russia, will Trump take the US to war over Syria? I don’t think so. Lots of chest thumping from from Putin is not going deter the allies one iota, Russia has an economy smaller than Texas and America’s military spending is huge compared to every other nation on earth. Whether the allies make a token military strike is irrelevant, Russia is not about to retaliate against sources from missile launch sites, they do at their peril.
Syria will remain a proxy battle field for the foreseeable, with no sides committed to deploying what is really needed, ‘troops on the ground’ and democracy for the people.
The eyes really should be focusing on Israel and Iran, as that is much more likely to escalate. Corbyn has his colours nailed to the mast for this fight 🧐


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Friday, April 13, 2018, 23:03:29
You can't spell apparently.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, April 14, 2018, 08:19:05
What are the Russians going to do? What can they do? Attack a base? Try and shoot down a plane?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Saturday, April 14, 2018, 10:28:36
Probably just release the piss tapes or cut the supply of gas to the west.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, April 14, 2018, 17:03:17
Hardly. A few cruise missiles on Syrian abandoned airports doesn’t quantify “bombing the shit” in my book.
I can’t see any reason for Assad using chemical weapons when ISIS and the rebels have all but been subdued; But we mere civilians will never be privileged to the evidence of our military services.
Ironically the American people that voted against Hiller Clinton did so because of her warmongering language regarding Russia, will Trump take the US to war over Syria? I don’t think so. Lots of chest thumping from from Putin is not going deter the allies one iota, Russia has an economy smaller than Texas and America’s military spending is huge compared to every other nation on earth. Whether the allies make a token military strike is irrelevant, Russia is not about to retaliate against sources from missile launch sites, they do at their peril.
Syria will remain a proxy battle field for the foreseeable, with no sides committed to deploying what is really needed, ‘troops on the ground’ and democracy for the people.
The eyes really should be focusing on Israel and Iran, as that is much more likely to escalate. Corbyn has his colours nailed to the mast for this fight 🧐

Still waiting to read your answers I put to you. It was a genuine set of questions.  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Sunday, April 15, 2018, 07:42:08
I’m not sure what makes you think I would want to sit and answer 20 odd questions from someone I have no interest in educating?
I’ll give you one question and maybe you could reciprocate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Sunday, April 15, 2018, 08:19:51
I've got one. Why are you such a fucking cunt?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Sunday, April 15, 2018, 11:14:10
I've got one. Why are you such a fucking cunt?

And here’s me thinking it was a badge of honour around these parts....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, April 15, 2018, 14:04:16
If the chemical producing venues were destroyed successfully, what has happened to all those chemicals?
Aren't all bombs made of chemicals by the way? Is it that some chemicals are worse than others? I'm guessing the weapons we sell to other nations and use ourselves are good weapons and the way they kill is acceptable?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, April 15, 2018, 14:15:16
If the chemical producing venues were destroyed successfully, what has happened to all those chemicals?
Aren't all bombs made of chemicals by the way? Is it that some chemicals are worse than others? I'm guessing the weapons we sell to other nations and use ourselves are good weapons and the way they kill is acceptable?

I always find it incredible that ourselves and the U.S are deemed 'stable' enough to manufacture and maintain nuclear weapons, yet we're led the line that pretty much anyone else who does would use them at will. Yes i'm aware there are some dangerous fuckers intent on trying to destroy the world out there, however the irony of it all is, the U.K is far from being stable and the U.S has an incumbent who believes he is very stable. When looking for people we believe to be dangerous, maybe we should be looking at our own leaders.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, April 15, 2018, 14:21:51
I’m not sure what makes you think I would want to sit and answer 20 odd questions from someone I have no interest in educating?
I’ll give you one question and maybe you could reciprocate.

Ohh but hobodan, why so much anger and defensive talk? There are a variety of questions in there, some more pointless than others. It's not about educating, it's about cohesion see. I wanted to understand you and your angle of things. Life in general, your favourite cheese, how you came to be such a cunt (like most of us are), who's hand you first bit that fed you, and if you have a shared interest in Palynology? You know, just the every day stuff.  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, April 15, 2018, 19:53:43
I always find it incredible that ourselves and the U.S are deemed 'stable' enough to manufacture and maintain nuclear weapons, yet we're led the line that pretty much anyone else who does would use them at will. Yes i'm aware there are some dangerous fuckers intent on trying to destroy the world out there, however the irony of it all is, the U.K is far from being stable and the U.S has an incumbent who believes he is very stable. When looking for people we believe to be dangerous, maybe we should be looking at our own leaders.
Good points, well made.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, April 15, 2018, 19:59:44
Good points, well made.

Thanks, reading it back...I'm putting it on twitter (no one will read it though).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Saturday, April 21, 2018, 10:38:27
Superb triumph for President Trump's diplomatic initiative in bringing Kim Jung-un into line. 

One in the eye for all the idiots who doubted his world leadership skills.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, April 23, 2018, 19:41:44
Interesting listening for your perusal https://twitter.com/StephenNolan/status/988482385640673281 (https://twitter.com/StephenNolan/status/988482385640673281)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 11:56:59
MPs debating the Customs Union issue in parliament now.  Is there any polling on this to look at whether there is support for a Customs Union in the country as a whole?  I cannot find any - so not sure whether the Tory policy reflects the majority view.  You hear all sorts of threats from the Mogg-wing of the Tory party equating support for a Customs Union with blocking 'the will of the people'...but is that strictly speaking correct?  What is the polling at the moment on this specific issue?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 12:05:14
I thought Cameron and Gideon had been very clear that the Brexit vote was about leaving the Customs Union, hence Project Fear, which may or may not yet be realised.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 12:07:46
MPs debating the Customs Union issue in parliament now.  Is there any polling on this to look at whether there is support for a Customs Union in the country as a whole?  I cannot find any - so not sure whether the Tory policy reflects the majority view.  You hear all sorts of threats from the Mogg-wing of the Tory party equating support for a Customs Union with blocking 'the will of the people'...but is that strictly speaking correct?  What is the polling at the moment on this specific issue?

Who knows, however as the referendum made no mention of leaving or staying in the CU - in fact many prominent leavers (Johnson, Gove, Hannan for example) in their campaigning made much that a vote to leave the EU was not a vote to leave the CU (and actually that we would be rater stupid to do so). Therefore Mogg and May are making much of the public apparently explicitly voting for an outcome that the public were never explicitly asked a question regarding.

But when you look at the present record of lying in parliament regarding Windrush (Rudd and May) and Brexit (May, Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Gove - and still counting!), not really sure what point parliament has anymore bar being a rubber stamping committee.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 12:15:34
MP'the will of the people'...

That's the whole issue with Brexit. No matter which side of the divide the vote had come down on, its not a strong enough result to shut the other side up.  Using it to ass cover decisions itself is fairly shitty.

With respect to the specifics, does the average person know the difference between leaving the EU, Customs Union and Single market. Nope. I sure as hell struggle and I consider myself average !

The referendum voting form was

(https://i2-prod.chroniclelive.co.uk/incoming/article11453173.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/JS81214356.jpg)

And its being used to mean whatever will do the least damage to the Tory party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 12:18:34
Another ting that's pissing me off. The Labour anti semitism row. Clearly a problem that needs fixing.

But seriously, do people think all the anti-jewsh political minded joined just labour? If its a problem, its going to be with society not a  particular political party.

Anything to beat down Corbyn I suppose, who hasn't exactly set the world on fire since the election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 12:31:20
Baroness Chakrabati has been amazingly quiet on the anti Semitism row after issuing her whitwash and taking her reward.
I'm with Batch, I can't work out if its a particular problem with Labour or people lumping in on it to smear them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 12:50:53
I'm with Batch, I can't work out if its a particular problem with Labour or people lumping in on it to smear them.

It is a problem in Labour, as it is a problem in other parties (there are plenty of examples doing the rounds of prospective Tory candidates saying some very fruity stuff about Jews, and others, on social media), I think what has escalated the issue in Labour is that its a two pronged attack with both the Tories (understandably) making hay out of it, but also  a large part of the anti-Corbyn Labour Party also grasping the opportunity to stick the boot in. Its a mess which needs sorting out, and frankly Corbyn isn't helping himself or the party by sitting on his hands with his finger up his arse.

What gets on my tits with it is a) the amount of Tories and Tory supporters making a massive fuss about it, whilst simultaneously having a big problem with foreign people generally, May has  long history of being, putting it politely, xenophobic and the whole Windrush thing which should be a massive scandal is getting glossed over while she tries to bullshit out of it and b) the idea that having concerns about the actions of the Israeli government has now become apparently anti-Semitic, on that basis I assume we can also claim that anyone who supports the Israeli's actions are Islamophobic?

Sick of politics in this Banana Republic, no fucking idea who to vote for in the forthcoming locals as even the local Lib Dems have shown themselves to be as bent as fuck round here!



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 12:51:50
Baroness Chakrabati has been amazingly quiet on the anti Semitism row after issuing her whitwash and taking her reward.
I'm with Batch, I can't work out if its a particular problem with Labour or people lumping in on it to smear them.
Bit of both, there is a definite problem on the left of (legitimate) opposition to Israel's behaviour segueing into generalised anti-Zionism and thence into anti-Semitism, but equally it is being used as a stick to beat Corbyn with. But then if he'd shown a bit of cojones to actually tackle the more rabid of his supporters who are causing him and Labour a problem, it wouldn't be nearly so effective a stick
Sadly there's always been an element of the hard left that has found the anti-capitalist/populist nature of anti-Semitism attractive as per AB's post. Then from the 70s there was the pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel sentiment which bundled together into "anti-Zionism" i.e. a criticism of/opposition to Israel's behaviour, or even existence, as a nation state, largely stemming from their behaviour toward Palestinians but also their position as a world actor, for those on the left who see anti-Americanism as fundamental tenet. Sadly, some of the wilder fringes find it difficult to stop anti-Zionism (criticism/hostility to Israel) from collapsing into anti-Semitism (hostility to Jews as a people). I don't believe for a minute that Corbyn is anti-Semitic but he has shown a complete lack of leadership in dealing with those elements on the left who are. And in doing so, his failure of leadership has allowed what should have been a 5-minute Daily Mail wonder to become a serious problem for Labour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 14:00:54
 The last leader of the Labour Party was Jewish.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 14:37:27
The last leader of the Labour Party was Jewish.....
"... some of my best friends are black".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 14:51:25
 I do think that although there was no box about Custom's Union or Single market on the form... the out vote does in fact mean leaving all.

 There was certainly enough flagging up at the time that taking an economic hit would be the consequence of Brexit, just that it would be short to medium term.  So Japanese motor corps would leave, but we could make up the loss by tax haven shenanigans.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 14:55:25
I do think that although there was no box about Custom's Union or Single market on the form... the out vote does in fact mean leaving all.

 There was certainly enough flagging up at the time that taking an economic hit would be the consequence of Brexit, just that it would be short to medium term.  So Japanese motor corps would leave, but we could make up the loss by tax haven shenanigans.
Have to agree. It was a shambles that so few people fully understood what they were voting on (and I include myself in that) but pretty clear people were voting to leave the whole shebang. It was not a nuanced debate, to suggest the outcome was somehow more subtle and nuanced than a simple in/out is spin.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 15:07:18
Have to agree. It was a shambles that so few people fully understood what they were voting on (and I include myself in that) but pretty clear people were voting to leave the whole shebang. It was not a nuanced debate, to suggest the outcome was somehow more subtle and nuanced than a simple in/out is spin.

The problem caused is that nobody thought the British people could be that stupid, a major miscalculation.  The political establishment hasn't got a clue how to push this forward... hence the need for a transition deal, to see if somebody might think of something...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 15:13:58
But because there was no 'Customs Union' or 'Single Market' box in the ballot paper (as Batch points out above), the whole issue as to what the vote really meant is a matter of personal opinion.  So you get nowhere.

There are plenty of MPs arguing this afternoon that the Leave vote certainly did not mean a vote to leave everything.  Two in particular (George Freeman and Antoinette Sandbach) have highlighted that Leave voters before the referendum voiced concern that the 1973 vote was a vote for the Common Market and not a United Europe (which they believed the EU was heading towards).  Until you put these issues explicitly on the ballot paper, you are not entitled to use the 'will of the people' argument...because you're only guessing what that really is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 15:26:27
But because there was no 'Customs Union' or 'Single Market' box in the ballot paper (as Batch points out above), the whole issue as to what the vote really meant is a matter of personal opinion.  So you get nowhere.

There are plenty of MPs arguing this afternoon that the Leave vote certainly did not mean a vote to leave everything.  Two in particular (George Freeman and Antoinette Sandbach) have highlighted that Leave voters before the referendum voiced concern that the 1973 vote was a vote for the Common Market and not a United Europe (which they believed the EU was heading towards).  Until you put these issues explicitly on the ballot paper, you are not entitled to use the 'will of the people' argument...because you're only guessing what that really is.

The problem is that we had exemptions from Schengen and the Eurozone.... so were never fully in the EU, so what was it people voted for to leave?  Obviously freedom of movement, although we could have put in systems on that under EU law, and then Custom's Union and Single Market.  Some may have confused the ECJ with ECHR... and thought they were voting to get rid of ECHR judgements which of course are nothing to do with the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 15:57:06
The problem is that we had exemptions from Schengen and the Eurozone....

Is has been quite funny this week to see many Brexiteers getting all excited by Daniel Hannan making a big song and dance about the Swiss Border being very simple despite them being outside the EU and that thus it was scare stories to suggest we would need a hard border, rather missing the point that whilst Switzerland are not in the EU they are signed up to Schengen and thus more signed up than we are now to free movement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 15:57:35
There are plenty of MPs arguing this afternoon that the Leave vote certainly did not mean a vote to leave everything.  
There are plenty of MPs who will argue black is white given half a chance. Means nothing


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 16:07:36
There are plenty of MPs who will argue black is white given half a chance. Means nothing

I think that more revealing than the appendage waving in the commons where I assume Theresa has wittered on about the explicit will of the people and the fact she knew nothing about Windrush is Amber Rudd refusing to comment on the matter when questioned by journalists noting that there were discussions to be had about it in cabinet to agree a "final position".

So nearly two years after the vote the Cabinet still don't have a final position! Fuck me, no wonder the fucking EU are tearing their hair out its like negotiating with children.

ts all going jolly well,

In the last week along the EU have....

Started the Ratification on trade deals with Japan & Singapore.

Agreed a Trade deal with Mexico.

Approved a strengthened framework to tackle unfair competition in trade.

What have we done in the UK the last week?

Continued to try to deport British people to countries they’ve never lived in.

What could possibly go wrong!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 16:10:32
There are plenty of MPs who will argue black is white given half a chance. Means nothing

In order to be confident that there was a majority in favour of leaving the Customs Union, you have to be able to demonstrate that at least 96.3% (being 50% divided by 51.9%) of Leave voters intended that.  I would venture that the odds of that being the case are approximately zero.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 16:18:27
In order to be confident that there was a majority in favour of leaving the Customs Union, you have to be able to demonstrate that at least 96.3% (being 50% divided by 51.9%) of Leave voters intended that.  I would venture that the odds of that being the case are approximately zero.
Fair point. Equally, I just don't buy the idea that substantial numbers of leave voters (or remain voters, not having a pop at leavers) knew there was a difference tbh. It was presented as very much a binary "Leave" or "Stay", not a gradient of leave this bit, but stay in that bit.

The whole thing's a bit of a mess isn't it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 16:24:27
In order to be confident that there was a majority in favour of leaving the Customs Union, you have to be able to demonstrate that at least 96.3% (being 50% divided by 51.9%) of Leave voters intended that.  I would venture that the odds of that being the case are approximately zero.

Even as a remain voter I accept that the majority voted to leave the EU and therefore our arrangements with it. 

It is then up to the government to sort out the arrangements.

The problem is that many Tories like Johnson went leave out of political expediency not expecting it to happen. The swivel eyed loons probably think there will be money to be made out of leaving the SM and CU.  The likes of Rees Mogg, run hedge funds in the Australia and the Far East, they don't want the EU poking thier nasty nose in on off shore tax evasion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 16:27:32
The swivel eyed loons probably think there will be money to be made out of leaving the SM and CU.
There is, for them. As you rightly point out, Rees Mogg is just one of them


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 16:33:06
The whole thing's a bit of a mess isn't it?

Yep.  : )

Difficult to do when Brexit (or the possibility of it) has been in the news constantly for 3 or 4 yrs now, but if you step back and consider two possibilities - one, where we leave the EU and all of its associated structures; and the other, in which we leave the EU politically and still retain close links via membership of the Customs Union etc - the 2nd of these seems far more in keeping with a referendum result that, statistically speaking, was not that far off being split evenly down the middle.

People need to be reasonable.  If the vote in favour of Leave was 70%+, I would have far more sympathy with the view that we had to leave everything.  But it wasn't.  A 51.9% vote in favour of anything is going to involve a degree of compromise somewhere along the line.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 16:36:22
Even as a remain voter I accept that the majority voted to leave the EU and therefore our arrangements with it.

There is no need for you to accept that, Reg.  It was never put to the vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 16:43:03
There is no need for you to accept that, Reg.  It was never put to the vote.
No it wasn't but I think Reg is correct that that is what most of us thought we were voting on. I certainly did. And this "half-in, half-out, shake it all about" thing looks like politicians trying to sidestep a result they don't agree with


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 16:58:47
In order to be confident that there was a majority in favour of leaving the Customs Union, you have to be able to demonstrate that at least 96.3% (being 50% divided by 51.9%) of Leave voters intended that.  I would venture that the odds of that being the case are approximately zero.

It's not legitimate (in my opinion) to assume that the 48% who voted to remain are a totally consistent bloc who voted to remain in every individual EU institution whilst at the same time carving up the leave vote into individual elements.
 
Reg is right for once ( :D) the decision was made to leave and it's up to the government of the day to work out the best way of achieving that. 

In my view the referendum was a mistake,  Boris Johnson is a cunt and a lot of people who voted to leave were racists or morons or both.  So what?  The result was tight but clear.  Once you start saying "ah yes but they didn't realise this or that or the other and if they had ...." then no referendum or general election result has any meaning and everyone has carte blanche to sabotage any result they don't like.

I was ashamed and embarrassed that we voted to leave, but if another referendum was imposed on us by a bunch of elitists who mouth the word "democracy" but don't actually believe in it, then I would vote to leave on principle and I would hope that other 'remainers' would do the same.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 17:00:54
No it wasn't but I think Reg is correct that that is what most of us thought we were voting on. I certainly did. And this "half-in, half-out, shake it all about" thing looks like politicians trying to sidestep a result they don't agree with

I would argue quite the opposite...that (as above) going for a full throttle, Brexit-on-steroids when only 51.9% of those who voted wanted any kind of Brexit would be perverse.

So yes...a mess.   :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 17:04:07
No it wasn't but I think Reg is correct that that is what most of us thought we were voting on. I certainly did. And this "half-in, half-out, shake it all about" thing looks like politicians trying to sidestep a result they don't agree with

But what actually was promised bar some generality about leaving the EU. Despite the best efforts of our PM, many ministers and their friends in the media the result gives no mandate, for example, to leave the CU or SM, in fact many of the prominent leave campaigners (Johnson, Hannan for example) made explicit reference to leaving the EU not being a vote to leave the SM and CU stating that we would be foolish to do so, yet now two years on we have May et al suggesting that 'will of the people' is explicitly a vote to leave these organisations, as I said earlier she is arguing that the electorate voted explicitly for a question that was never actually asked of them.

As for it not happening, despite the best efforts to lay the blame squarely at the feet of the judiciary, the Lords, anyone who voted remain and most significantly the EU (something that will no doubt continue for the next 40 years) the blame lies in the hands of those who campaigned for the leave vote and then have shown themselves entirely incapable for delivering on their promise.

Its all very well for Rees-Mogg, Gove, Johnson (and a plethora of vociferous leave voters) to bitch and bicker about things and blame others for the fact that utopia is drifting away, yet no one has come up with anything resembling a workable solution to deliver on what was promised. So far your leaders (she is nowt to do with me!) have collapsed on the payments issue (as the EU merely applied the regulations which were already in place pre-referendum and any basic research would have made perfectly clear) meaning that my daughter will still be paying for this when she is in her 60's. No one can come up with a real world example that works for the Irish Border, despite it being blindingly obvious to anyone who spent 5 minutes considering the practicalities of what was being promised that a customs union by definition needs a hard border and if we were to leave said union a hard border would follow (setting aside the complete lack of appreciation of this on the leave side pre-June 2016, this has been an issue in the public domain for over a year now, and still the great minds on the leave side cannot answer it and just keep booting it down the road). And we have not even got to Gibraltar yet, that's when the fun is going to really start! Its abundantly clear that Mogg etc are leaving May in power as otherwise they would have to take an iota of responsibility for this and they are too cowardly to do so, likewise their supporters are also very loath apparently to bring them to account as that might meaning admitting that they have been sold a hospital pass.

Turning to the legalities, a particularly peculiar situation has arisen. The Referendum Bill was flawed if you are a leaver as it never allowed any legal process for the result to be delivered (despite the best efforts of many to rewrite what it actually says), likewise the triggering of A50 was potentially flawed legally, now if I were a leaver I would wonder whether this was simple ineptitude upon the part of the government and their undoubtedly highly paid lawyers, or something more sinister to handicap the whole process - possibly the government holding back a get out of jail free card just in case. One thing that has been gloriously ironic has been seeing so many hard line right wingers trying to suggest that the law should not be interpreted as it is written, these often being the same who are very keen on authoritarian methods of government!

Its a complete shambles and all it appears to have done is shown the UK to be a somewhat unpleasant, unwelcoming and incredibly inept country, led by idiots who managed to swing a vote by embracing longstanding issues within part of the electorate through a particularly unpleasant line of campaigning (interesting that Project Fear is often laid at the feet of the remain side as some manner of insult, when we consider the altogether more unpleasant project fear of the leave side, for example Turkey joining - shown to be total nonsense!, Farages Nazi posters - one thing that has become clear is that the leave campaign was considerably more professional than the remain one, and they did not decide to go down that line as viciously as they did without being aware that it would appeal to a lot of voters - possibly informed by the work of CA etc)

P.S - as you might have gathered I posted this on another forum yesterday and frankly could not be arsed to repeat it all again and copied and pasted instead!  :D ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 17:07:51
It's not legitimate (in my opinion) to assume that the 48% who voted to remain are a totally consistent bloc who voted to remain in every individual EU institution whilst at the same time carving up the leave vote into individual elements.
 
Reg is right for once ( :D) the decision was made to leave and it's up to the government of the day to work out the best way of achieving that. 

In my view the referendum was a mistake,  Boris Johnson is a cunt and a lot of people who voted to leave were racists or morons or both.  So what?  The result was tight but clear.  Once you start saying "ah yes but they didn't realise this or that or the other and if they had ...." then no referendum or general election result has any meaning and everyone has carte blanche to sabotage any result they don't like.

I was ashamed and embarrassed that we voted to leave, but if another referendum was imposed on us by a bunch of elitists who mouth the word "democracy" but don't actually believe in it, then I would vote to leave on principle and I would hope that other 'remainers' would do the same.

I hear you, but keep coming back to this....the Customs Union and Single Market were not on the ballot paper.  The government has a mandate to take us out of the EU, but no mandate at all for anything else.  This is a complete mess - and how Cameron has not been called to account for his gross ineptitude is staggering.

It is patently obvious that there was no consensus across the voting population on what the vote was about.  Some assumed that a vote to Leave meant leaving everything, while others will have assumed otherwise.  While there are arguments against, I accept, one argument in favour of a further referendum on the actual deal that is delivered is that - this time - at least everyone will know what they were voting for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 17:20:51
I hear you, but keep coming back to this....the Customs Union and Single Market were not on the ballot paper.  The government has a mandate to take us out of the EU, but no mandate at all for anything else.  This is a complete mess - and how Cameron has not been called to account for his gross ineptitude is staggering.

I am not making excuses for Cameron as ultimately he was the architect for all this, what is shambolic is that the legals behind both the referendum and subsequent actions have been so shoddily done. My line of work is often law based and even with my peripheral understanding its obvious why holes can and are be picked in it all - Day one of law school interpret the law for what it actually says, not what you want it to say.

There was no consensus , for instance I know for a fact that a lot of my extended family voted leave as they seemed to be under the impression that it would mean fewer brown faces in their home towns in West Yorkshire, they seem entirely ignorant to the fact that the only immigrants it would directly affect were their polish friends and often partners, so do we take their vote and interpret it as a mandate to reduce immigration from the Indian sub-continent? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 17:43:26
Agree with Ardiles.

If you cannot say that 100% of the 51.9% would have discounted the CU and or SM, tweaked or otherwise, as ever being an acceptable part of leaving the EU, you have to rely on the "normal" democratic processes. 

Here I agree with Paul that this leaves a bit of a mess with Parliament and Parties as well as the Public, all deeply divided and with the DUP punching absurdly above its weight. 

I don't believe the CU/SM etc question is best decided upon by a referendum. Any true debate on the merits or otherwise has been closed down anyway.  What shape might a trade deal with the USA and India take and would the Government propose any red lines there on the NHS or immigration for example?

Having Parliament determine this question is more democratic than leaving it to be resolved by a divided Conservative Government but can the Government (or for that matter the EU) negotiate Brexit properly?  It seems no one really has a mandate and that timid Theresa is just playing for time "hoping something will turn up".

We are going round in circles on Brexit, not truly mapping out a vision, still having "not to reveal our hand" other than "red lines".  We are prevented from even seeing the sectorial impact assessments.  Other policy areas are neglected.  Truly, wtf is going on?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 18:08:14
While there are arguments against, I accept, one argument in favour of a further referendum on the actual deal that is delivered is that - this time - at least everyone will know what they were voting for.
It's all too technical for a meaningful vote.  imo.   I just fear that it would all boil down to "immigration" again.  I'd rather not scratch that itch again.  Once was quite enough.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 26, 2018, 21:02:52
It's not legitimate (in my opinion) to assume that the 48% who voted to remain are a totally consistent bloc who voted to remain in every individual EU institution whilst at the same time carving up the leave vote into individual elements.
 
Reg is right for once ( :D) the decision was made to leave and it's up to the government of the day to work out the best way of achieving that. 

In my view the referendum was a mistake,  Boris Johnson is a cunt and a lot of people who voted to leave were racists or morons or both.  So what?  The result was tight but clear.  Once you start saying "ah yes but they didn't realise this or that or the other and if they had ...." then no referendum or general election result has any meaning and everyone has carte blanche to sabotage any result they don't like.

I was ashamed and embarrassed that we voted to leave, but if another referendum was imposed on us by a bunch of elitists who mouth the word "democracy" but don't actually believe in it, then I would vote to leave on principle and I would hope that other 'remainers' would do the same.
Pretty much agree with all of this. It's this politicians trying to wriggle out of a result they don't like that annoys me. The referendum was a bloody car crash but they signed up for it, albeit only because they smugly thought the hoi polloi would vote the "right" way like they were told to, and now they can damn well implement it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, April 28, 2018, 11:25:20
No Doctors please, we're British!

After the shameful treatment of our "Windrush" fellow Brits, our distinguished Home Office has just refused a whole batch of 100 visa applications by Indian Doctors with NHS job offers - on quota grounds.  That's about 200 refusals this year.

Yay!  And that helps leave us free to continue blaming immigrants for waiting lists meanwhile.

Nevertheless, by 2025 we should be having a sudden glut of Brit doctors thanks to the extra 1500 training places to start later this year.  Lets hope that 1500 doctors, all newly qualified, is just what the NHS will need then




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, April 29, 2018, 21:06:48
Amber Rudd has apparently resigned.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Monday, April 30, 2018, 08:38:55
Whilst this smacks of executing one of the concentration camp guards rather than the camp commandant I hope it stays that way.

The last thing we need right now is a new PM.  Brexit will still be an insoluble mess and getting someone slightly less hapless than May is not going to help.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Monday, April 30, 2018, 09:39:29
Sajid javid takes over as home secretary


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 30, 2018, 10:59:05
Interesting that Rudd has been forced to resign after it emerged that a Memo she sent to Theresa May illustrated the fact that she lied to parliament. I assume we will now at the very least see May stand up in parliament to apologise for not correcting her colleague who she explicitly knew was lying to parliament last week?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Monday, April 30, 2018, 11:35:12
Maybot was not programmed to feel remorse


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, April 30, 2018, 11:53:39
So the will of the people is to send those dirty stinking illegal immigrants home, but be outraged about the lie about having planned targets to do it?





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 30, 2018, 12:06:33
So the will of the people is to send those dirty stinking illegal immigrants home, but be outraged about the lie about having planned targets to do it?

I don't think it's the problem with deporting illegal immigrants, or having targets but rather including in those people from the Windrush generation, who although perhaps technically illegal due to bureaucracy, wouldn't be considered illegal by any common sense measure. And then lying about it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, April 30, 2018, 12:15:12
I don't think it's the problem with deporting illegal immigrants, or having targets but rather including in those people from the Windrush generation, who although perhaps technically illegal due to bureaucracy, wouldn't be considered illegal by any common sense measure. And then lying about it.

I thought the lie was about the setting of % targets of illegal immigrant deportation, not Windrush. Windrush was a "mistake". Only even the lie wasn't a lie, merely "misleading"...

Ah well, apologies if I have it wrong.

edit: BBC reads like that too
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-43945768/amber-rudd-why-has-the-home-secretary-resigned
-------
So it still seems to me she has fallen on her sword over not telling the truth on targets. Not the actual targets themself, not Windrush.

Controversial, shouldn't illegal immigrants be deported ASAP?
Not asylum seekers.
Not legal immigrants.  The illegal ones.

Of course its never that simple I suppose
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/11883712.Facebook_campaign_as_Swindon_coffee_bride_faces_deportation/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 30, 2018, 12:41:25
So the will of the people is to send those dirty stinking illegal immigrants home, but be outraged about the lie about having planned targets to do it?





Similar to the aspiration to bomb Syria for humanitarian reasons, but then vote against taking in orphaned children from the same conflict.... Oh and supplying bombs and weapons to Saudi Arabia to bomb Yemen killing civilians and kids....

The Vicars daughter has a very skewed moral compass.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, April 30, 2018, 12:55:36
I thought the lie was about the setting of % targets of illegal immigrant deportation, not Windrush. Windrush was a "mistake". Only even the lie wasn't a lie, merely "misleading"...

Ah well, apologies if I have it wrong.

edit: BBC reads like that too
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-43945768/amber-rudd-why-has-the-home-secretary-resigned
-------
So it still seems to me she has fallen on her sword over not telling the truth on targets. Not the actual targets themself, not Windrush.

Controversial, shouldn't illegal immigrants be deported ASAP?
Not asylum seekers.
Not legal immigrants.  The illegal ones.

Of course its never that simple I suppose
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/11883712.Facebook_campaign_as_Swindon_coffee_bride_faces_deportation/
The initial problem was that having set targets to increase deportations, the Home Office responded not by being better at finding genuine illegals but instead being more pedantic over documentation etc so they could widen the net to include more people, which was always going to result in wholesale injustice but it's OK as long as you're meeting your targets and no-one kicks up a fuss. So that was the policy problem, actually mainly caused by Teresa May's "hostile environment" policy which Rudd just continued. But that's not why she had to resign. She resigned because she lied about the targets, repeatedly and badly, because they made the Home Office look bad, because it's a shitty policy and she didn't want to look bad. As with most of these things, it's not the initial failing, it's the attempt to cover it up that does for them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, April 30, 2018, 13:33:03
Incidentally, in an age in which we are all quite cynical about the media, the whole fiasco is a very good example of why a strong independent free press is so important in holding government to account in a democracy. Which is why demagogues like Trump and Erdogan always attack the press and the judiciary.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 30, 2018, 13:49:28
Incidentally, in an age in which we are all quite cynical about the media, the whole fiasco is a very good example of why a strong independent free press is so important in holding government to account in a democracy. Which is why demagogues like Trump and Erdogan always attack the press and the judiciary.

Although gets rather murky when you note that the journalist who did so much to break the story and ultimately lead to Rudds resignation and Mays embarrassment is Amelia Gentleman, wife of the Transport Secretary Jo Johnson and sister in Law of Boris Johnson.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, April 30, 2018, 13:55:58
The media do have their uses. Still a bunch of cunts, though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, April 30, 2018, 14:34:53
Similar to the aspiration to bomb Syria for humanitarian reasons, but then vote against taking in orphaned children from the same conflict.... Oh and supplying bombs and weapons to Saudi Arabia to bomb Yemen killing civilians and kids....

The Vicars daughter has a very skewed moral compass.....

While not directly related, I did find myself recently pondering the absurdity that Jacob Rees-Mogg considers himself to be a Christian.  You're booking a one way trip to Hades, mate.  I've seen your voting record.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, April 30, 2018, 14:35:39
Incidentally, in an age in which we are all quite cynical about the media, the whole fiasco is a very good example of why a strong independent free press is so important in holding government to account in a democracy. Which is why demagogues like Trump and Erdogan always attack the press and the judiciary.

https://rsf.org/en/ranking

We're a bottom half championship club in the press freedom rankings


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 30, 2018, 14:39:47
https://rsf.org/en/ranking

We're a bottom half championship club in the press freedom rankings

Fucking Power, no ambition in his Press Freedom Rankings...... :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, April 30, 2018, 15:08:44
Furthermore.... Jerenemy Hunt sends farewell tweet to former HS...

'...She will be missed until she is back which she will be!'

https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/990830664823042054 (https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/990830664823042054)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 30, 2018, 15:34:31
I notice the gammon on social media are getting very het up as our new Home Secretary is a scary Muslim.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, April 30, 2018, 15:42:11
gammon ... our new Home Secretary is a scary Muslim.....

Surely pigs should be rejoicing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, April 30, 2018, 22:03:36
Peers in the House of Lords have voted 335-244 (a majority of 91) for cross-party amendment to the E.U Withdrawal Bill.

As Terry Pratchett said: We live in interesting times.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 06:13:15
Can that be overturned by the commons, out is that just lawmaking matters?

I assume the leaves are moaning at this bit of democracy interrupting the democratic process that was the referendum..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 08:15:16
Can that be overturned by the commons, out is that just lawmaking matters?

I assume the leaves are moaning at this bit of democracy interrupting the democratic process that was the referendum..
Yes the people who spent the whole referendum campaign declaring "Parliament must be sovereign" (in between the lies about NHS funding and dogwhistle racism on immigration) are now beside themselves at the prospect of Parliament being sovereign. How very dare they!

TBF, if MPs and Lords do combine to attempt to overturn Brexit, that would be an outrageous negation of the referendum outcome, whatever you think of that outcome.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 08:16:34
Peers in the House of Lords have voted 335-244 (a majority of 91) for cross-party amendment to the E.U Withdrawal Bill.

As I underestand it, if the H o C voted not to accept the government's final negotiation, then it would be staright over the cliff edge to no deal.

This amendment now means, if the H o C votes not to accept the government's terms for Brexit, they'll have to go back to Bruxelles for more talks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 08:20:48
As I underestand it, if the H o C voted not to accept the government's final negotiation, then it would be staright over the cliff edge to no deal.

This amendment now means, if the H o C votes not to accept the government's terms for Brexit, they'll have to go back to Bruxelles for more talks.
It's more open-ended than that. They can instruct the govt to resume negotiations or they can scrap the whole thing, call for another referendum or do whatever they like. It gives Parliament the ability to either stall Brexit indefinitely or even try to overturn it all together.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 08:26:30
It's more open-ended than that. They can instruct the govt to resume negotiations or they can scrap the whole thing, call for another referendum or do whatever they like. It gives Parliament the ability to either stall Brexit indefinitely or even try to overturn it all together.

Fair enough, but I thought the "Miller" case provided Parliament with their say on Brexit which they used by voting 498-114 in favour of triggering Article 50.  So it's about Brexit terms and the need to avoid the right's wet dream of no deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 08:33:27
It's more open-ended than that. They can instruct the govt to resume negotiations or they can scrap the whole thing, call for another referendum or do whatever they like. It gives Parliament the ability to either stall Brexit indefinitely or even try to overturn it all together.

Keeping all the options open is a good thing. I don't buy the "we voted out so that's what we now must do no matter the cost" argument. We are governed by a representative democracy. If a majority of the representatives think that leaving the EU with whatever deal the Maybot comes up with is worse for the UK then they should be able to stop it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 08:46:01
Keeping all the options open is a good thing. I don't buy the "we voted out so that's what we now must do no matter the cost" argument. We are governed by a representative democracy. If a majority of the representatives think that leaving the EU with whatever deal the Maybot comes up with is worse for the UK then they should be able to stop it.
But then we shouldn't have had a referendum in the first place. (And there's a very good argument for that tbf). But we did - the politicians can't call a referendum then ignore the results if they don't like them


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 08:51:16
But then we shouldn't have had a referendum in the first place. (And there's a very good argument for that tbf). But we did - the politicians can't call a referendum then ignore the results if they don't like them

Yet isn't parliament at present just exercising this sovereignty thing that we heard so much about, I don't recall us becoming a direct democracy.

Fair enough, but I thought the "Miller" case provided Parliament with their say on Brexit which they used by voting 498-114 in favour of triggering Article 50.  So it's about Brexit terms and the need to avoid the right's wet dream of no deal.

Don't even get started on the legality of the triggering of A50, its an absolute fucking minefield and the government, as with all legal elements of this process have either a) been entirely inept in doing things in a legal manner or b) deliberately fucked it up to give them a get out of free card in the future (delete as appropriate depending on how you view conspiracy theories!)

It was nice to hear Liam Fox on R4 this morning, saying nothing and just repeating the will of the people mantra in multiple different ways to answer each question, when is someone going to ask him what the fucking hell he has actually been doing for the last 2 years?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 08:54:57
Quote from: pauld
. But we did - the Tories can't call a referendum then ignore the results because it'll fuck them for generations, even if they know it'll leave the country better off

fixed it for you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 10:07:56
Yet isn't parliament at present just exercising this sovereignty thing that we heard so much about, I don't recall us becoming a direct democracy.
Yes and that's the conundrum behind calling a referendum in the first place. But if you're going to call one, you have to respect the result. It's beyond farce to do otherwise (not that I'm suggesting that the whole process isn't a farce), but it would also be very dangerous for public confidence in the whole democratic process.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 10:32:05
The only way out of this is a massive, British muddle-though/compromise/fudge.  It's what we do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 10:33:05
well, what if the public changed their mind.

I mean you aren't wrong, but to be stuck on something we no longer want is sad.  The leave vote could also increase too of course.

I'm not disagreeing, it won't happen, it's a shame it's not even an option.

Cameron has to be the worst prime minister in a century. Gambled and lost just to shut up in party euro scepticism.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 10:33:41
Quote from: Ardiles
The only way out of this is a massive, British muddle-though/compromise/fudge.  It's what we do.

least shit compromise. Nobody wins


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 10:48:12
Cameron has to be the worst prime minister in a century. Gambled and lost just to shut up in party euro scepticism.

Cameron may well be judged as the worst Prime Minister ever, although May could push him close.  Lord North, also Eton and Oxford, who lost the American colonies, is considered a contender.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 11:03:16
Whose judging though?

Labour or Tory supporters?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 11:07:34
Who's judging though?
(sorry couldn't resist)
Labour or Tory supporters?
I think "History" was implicit in Reg's statement. But I don't think anyone either side of the political divide is impressed with Cameron. Apart from possibly George Osbourne.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 11:29:13
I think "History" was implicit in Reg's statement. But I don't think anyone either side of the political divide is impressed with Cameron. Apart from possibly George Osbourne.

Indeed. I was taught that it was George Germain.... Viscount Sackville who was responsible for the loss of the 13 colony states, but history now lays the blame at North's door.

 I suppose history may come to blame Johnson rather than Cameron for the current mess and it may be that it will require The Honourable Member for the 18th Century to sort it out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 12:01:49
I think "History" was implicit in Reg's statement. But I don't think anyone either side of the political divide is impressed with Cameron. Apart from possibly George Osbourne.

I don't know, Hostile Environment and the referendum were on his watch so I suspect the far right of the party came away reasonably happy!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 12:09:47
But then we shouldn't have had a referendum in the first place. (And there's a very good argument for that tbf). But we did - the politicians can't call a referendum then ignore the results if they don't like them

Sorry disagree again. A referendum has the same legal status as an opinion poll. I'd consider it the civic duty of an MP to ignore the 'Will Of The People' if that will was causing major harm to the country.

And if the electorate disagree, they can vote said MP out at the next election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 13:30:02
Sorry disagree again. A referendum has the same legal status as an opinion poll.
Same legal status maybe, but opinion polls are always partial and skewed, not a full representation of the electorate. Having dragged us all out to the polls to vote on what was sold as a straight "in/out" vote, not a consultation exercise, it would take an MP with an interesting interpretation of "representative" to defy that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 13:30:12
Sorry disagree again. A referendum has the same legal status as an opinion poll. I'd consider it the civic duty of an MP to ignore the 'Will Of The People' if that will was causing major harm to the country.

And if the electorate disagree, they can vote said MP out at the next election.

Politicians repeating the 'will of the people' line would do well to remember that the referendum vote was followed by a General Election the following year.  The referendum result provided a mandate to leave the EU, but said nothing about how that should be achieved.  The General Election that followed, however, was explicitly billed as a 'back me' call by Theresa May to facilitate a hard Brexit - and the electorate decided not to.

There is no mandate for a hard Brexit.  As a strategy, it is backed neither by Parliament or by 'the people'.  The likes of Rees-Mogg have been relatively quiet in recent days.  I think the penny is starting to drop.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 13:33:29
The likes of Rees-Mogg have been relatively quiet in recent days.  I think the penny is starting to drop.
I wouldn't hold your breath. The penny rarely drops for the likes of Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Fox and their ilk. They will all soon be back braying at their loudest and when they've made a complete arse-fuck of the whole Brexit process they'll be braying even louder that they were "betrayed" (but not by their own vanity and incompetence)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 13:51:16
Same legal status maybe, but opinion polls are always partial and skewed, not a full representation of the electorate. Having dragged us all out to the polls to vote on what was sold as a straight "in/out" vote, not a consultation exercise, it would take an MP with an interesting interpretation of "representative" to defy that.
Agree. It was a straight shoot out - in or out. Nothing advisory, hence the skewed rhetoric and total bullshit on both sides. Does anyone think Obama was wheeled out for an advisory opinion poll? The people voted in good faith. Enough shittiness has been said from both sides about others who voted the other way but its 1 vote per eligible person not one vote for someone who votes the same way as me and others are retards and don't understand the full argument.
There is talk about people not knowing what they voted for and that is quite patronising on both sides of the argument, Did those who voted to stay understand what they were voting for?
The bottom line is that not one person in the world knows how this is going to play out. Once we know the actual deal we can start working out the implications good and bad. It may be good it may be bad, nobody knows on either side of the argument.
I said at the start that we will not be allowed to leave the EU and I can still see that being the case. I suspect Parliament will not vote through whatever deal is put forward and we won't go off a cliff edge. What it does do is hand the EU the negotiation on a plate regardless of how well or how badly we play our hand.
Whichever way it goes it is difficult to see how all levels of democracy can be served.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 14:20:14
What it does do is hand the EU the negotiation on a plate regardless of how well or how badly we play our hand.


I cannot be bothered to go through it all again, however to pick up on this point, that ship sailed 12-18 months ago, its not a negotiation - our leaders posture and bullshit a bit and then capitulate as the EU have experts dealing with it who understand and interpret the laws and treaties that we signed up to (and in many cases actually instigated).

Thus we have had every opportunity to come up with a solution to the Irish border issue, our side have failed to suggest anything beyond micro-chipping us all and some bollocks regarding drones, this just doesn't work and thus to move things forward the EU have set a fall back position, which reflects the fall back that our government have also stated yet the government are now bitching about it and the crackpots in the DUP who have May over a barrel are suggesting that the EU are bullying them.

First rule of negotiation in any process is to set out in writing and detail what you want and how you can practically achieve it, we have never done this and its always down to the EU to put things in writing (which immediately gives them the upper hand) whilst our leaders just engage in a cock waving contest for Daily Mail Readers...

And sadly the EU have much bigger cocks in this process than the UK government - and they know it!





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 14:24:29
I said at the start that we will not be allowed to leave the EU and I can still see that being the case.

We leave the EU in March 2019.  The transition deal of 2 years, increases the time scale of how adjustments might be made, on both sides of the Channel...... Manche/English and Irish. This is important as so far as anyone can tell we've done fuck all at our end. 

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 14:28:37
We leave the EU in March 2019.  The transition deal of 2 years, increases the time scale of how adjustments might be made, on both sides of the Channel...... Manche/English and Irish. This is important as so far as anyone can tell we've done fuck all at our end. 

 

I think the plan for the nutjobs is to make sure we depart in March 2019, and fuck the consequences as it will nigh impossible to get us back in after that date. Then the Rees Moggs of this world can take their cash and leave it to the plebs like you and I to try and deal with the subsequent clusterfuck.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 17:42:45
Cameron may well be judged as the worst Prime Minister ever, although May could push him close.  Lord North, also Eton and Oxford, who lost the American colonies, is considered a contender.

I would add the architect of the Munich Agreement needs consideration, too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 18:22:14
I would add the architect of the Munich Agreement needs consideration, too.

Certainly if you're Czech... mind my old Czech lady friend's family did alright eventually as the ethnic Germans were moved out of the Sudetenland, at the end of the war and their property handed over to Czechs.

I have a bit of sympathy for Chamberlain.... in the late 30's I don't think there was an appetite for another war after 14-18.

OK, ultimately he failed to prevent a conflict, but his failure was driven by honourable motives.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 19:53:49
Certainly if you're Czech... mind my old Czech lady friend's family did alright eventually as the ethnic Germans were moved out of the Sudetenland, at the end of the war and their property handed over to Czechs.

I have a bit of sympathy for Chamberlain.... in the late 30's I don't think there was an appetite for another war after 14-18.

OK, ultimately he failed to prevent a conflict, but his failure was driven by honourable motives.

I don't disagree with your final paragraph, but given he set out to avoid war and played a large role in creating the largest war ever, I think it's hard to be anything other than critical.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, May 1, 2018, 23:32:33
I don't disagree with your final paragraph, but given he set out to avoid war and played a large role in creating the largest war ever, I think it's hard to be anything other than critical.

I think it's right to question Chamberlain's legacy...but I would argue that war was caused more by the German and Italian people allowing the virus of fascism to infect their body politic. Despite there being then, as now, fascist elements within the media and establishment, Neville wasn't one of them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 06:07:31
I think it's right to question Chamberlain's legacy...but I would argue that war was caused more by the German and Italian people allowing the virus of fascism to infect their body politic. Despite there being then, as now, fascist elements within the media and establishment, Neville wasn't one of them.

I don't disagree with that either, all fair points.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 09:00:46
Same legal status maybe....

So how do you want to play this then, I for one like living in a country where the law is interpreted for what it actually says, not what someone in power wants it to say just because they fucked up (either accidentally or on purpose) its drafting and adoption, whilst this government have been happily prepared to use SI's regularly to circumvent parliament on something like this basically giving the government the opportunity (and precedent) to just make it up to suit their ideological agenda and purposes sets a dangerous set of circumstances in effect - down that road lives Mr dictator and his mates... They have had 2 years to sort this out (nothing to stop they just tagging a clause onto the back of the A50 bill) and have chosen not to address it, instead just waving their cocks around and talking bollocks.

Its nice to see in that Fox now considers parliament to be merely a 'procedural device', I imagine such disdain for parliamentary sovereignty would be a hanging offence if it were not being expressed by a hard right wing MP, plus when you read and hear Rees Mogg whining and bitching about the Lords just remember that he led a Tory back bench rebellion against Lords reform 6 years ago, which coincidentally also included both Bernard Jenkin and a certain Mr D Davis, I wonder whats changed their minds.....

Karma can be a right bitch can't it.  :girlgiggle:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 09:10:31
I don't disagree with most of what you say. The flaw here is the decision in the first place to hold a referendum that wasn't legally binding and wasn't clear, leaving an unholy mess to resolve. But it doesn't alter the fact that the majority of people who voted in that referendum voted to leave the EU. Parliament trying to overturn delay or otherwise get round that via backdoor shenannigans just look like a stitch-up along the lines of "We gave you a vote but you got the wrong answer so we're going to ignore you" and that plays into the hands of those who seek to undermine parliamentary democracy. There's a reason the Russians pumped money and bots into Brexit as enthusiastically as they did Trump. There's a reason the far right backed both.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 09:11:41
Incidentally anyone had a kitchen sink chucked at them by power-hungry lefties in recent days?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/02/labour-throwing-kitchen-sink-at-swindon-election


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 09:19:43
Incidentally anyone had a kitchen sink chucked at them by power-hungry lefties in recent days?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/02/labour-throwing-kitchen-sink-at-swindon-election

The guy on the left looks like Graham from Jeremy Kyle....

Its the Lib Dems and the Tories battling here, both wankers so not sure what to do, the Tories sole campaign message is that they will deliver a better Brexit than the Lib Dems....



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 09:21:39
The guy on the left looks like Graham from Jeremy Kyle....
They're all on the left :) And who?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 09:26:15
I don't disagree with most of what you say. The flaw here is the decision in the first place to hold a referendum that wasn't legally binding and wasn't clear, leaving an unholy mess to resolve. But it doesn't alter the fact that the majority of people who voted in that referendum voted to leave the EU. Parliament trying to overturn delay or otherwise get round that via backdoor shenannigans just look like a stitch-up along the lines of "We gave you a vote but you got the wrong answer so we're going to ignore you" and that plays into the hands of those who seek to undermine parliamentary democracy. There's a reason the Russians pumped money and bots into Brexit as enthusiastically as they did Trump. There's a reason the far right backed both.

I knew you would say this, hence why I added....

They have had 2 years to sort this out (nothing to stop they just tagging a clause onto the back of the A50 bill) and have chosen not to address it, instead just waving their cocks around and talking bollocks.

A lot of my work involves dealing with law and Acts of Parliament (its thrilling!) but the precedent that this threatens to set (as with the Henry VIII powers) is truly frightening and would set us well on the way to a dictatorship where the executive can do what they like without scrutiny, its easily sorted as the Tories have a majority in parliament -especially whilst Labour are acting as their facilitators on all things Brexit so why are they not sorting it, if Corbyn flip flops to remain, as many of his supporters when challenged, suggest he will when the public climate is right that chance will have gone?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 09:27:29
They're all on the left :) And who?

Can tell you don't work from home.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 09:31:14
As I say, I agree with your critique of how the Brexiteers have fucked this up. And will continue to do so, I think I've made clear my view that they are vain, incompetent buffoons. But I am looking merely to sound a note of caution that the political classes would do well not to underestimate the depth of anger if parliament does not deliver what the public voted for. That is how we ended up with Brexit in the first place, because the elites ignored the concerns of the population, and they seem well on their way to drifting back into Westminster bubble complacency all over again. Arron Banks, Farage, the alt-right loons and their Russian funders will be rubbing their hands with glee.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 12:24:45
the EU have experts dealing with it who understand and interpret the laws and treaties that we signed up to (and in many cases actually instigated).

Not sure that I buy into the "EU experts" line. 

I haven't read the treaty, of course, but I'd bet that there is simply no means of exiting smoothly from the EU no matter how thoroughly you understand the treaty.  They never thought anyone would exit so the exit mechanism never got properly written or kept up to date.  There are plenty of contracts out there with completely impractical and/or incomplete cancellation clauses.

All the EU have to do is sit there saying "non", it's the UK who has to articulate a viable legal way out. And there isn't one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 12:48:18
Not sure that I buy into the "EU experts" line. 


You are probably right, competent would have been a much better choice of word.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 13:52:55
You are probably right, competent would have been a much better choice of word.

Assuming that I have correctly interpreted your nicely nuanced response as "ok they're merely competent to our utterly incompetent" then I'm still not sure that you are right.

David Davis is clearly an embarrassment; stupid and lazy.  But just because the front man is a moron that doesn't mean everyone working on the treaty behind him is as well.  Surely the reality is that we have voted to enact something that is impossible to do in any sensible way and that is why we are floundering to achieve the unachievable?.


 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 14:07:10
David Davis is clearly an embarrassment; stupid and lazy.  But just because the front man is a moron that doesn't mean everyone working on the treaty behind him is as well. 
Well, it's not just David Davis - there's the "disgraced former minister" Liam Fox (as he should have remained), the vanity project that is Michael Gove and the self-regarding buffoon Johnson. That's quite some cabal. But I get your meaning - you mean that just because the ministers are oafs, doesn't mean the civil servants behind them aren't every bit as competent as they always were. Good theory but:
a) We don't have civil servants with experience of negotiating these kinds of treaties as we haven't needed them for over 40 years. The EU have always done that for us (and the other member states), so they do
b) A lot of the civil servants who do have expertise in at least dealing with the EU have quit because they're fed up of dealing with the oafs appointed to lead them.
So, no, we may well not have quite the hinterland of competence you'd like to imagine. We are proper in the poo


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 14:57:39
We're always in the shit PaulD, it's just the depth that varies.

People looking at this from the outside in, must think this just stinks of a vanity project gone awfully wrong.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 15:08:56
People looking at this from the outside in, must think this just stinks of a vanity project gone awfully wrong.

Never thought I would be comparing Swindon Town and Brexit!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 15:26:45
Never thought I would be comparing Swindon Town and Brexit!


 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: At least we can laugh about it (Town) or is it just the madness has finally got to (never left) us?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 21:48:48
a) We don't have civil servants with experience of negotiating these kinds of treaties as we haven't needed them for over 40 years. The EU have always done that for us (and the other member states), so they do
b) A lot of the civil servants who do have expertise in at least dealing with the EU have quit because they're fed up of dealing with the oafs appointed to lead them.
So, no, we may well not have quite the hinterland of competence you'd like to imagine. We are proper in the poo

I still think that we are primarily "proper in the poo" because the task is unachievable.  You can be the best football manager in the world but if you're managing San Marino then you're still fucked.

You are right however on the points you raise, particularly on point b) which I had forgotten about.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, 21:52:13
Part of the problem for Bercow is that he looks and sounds like the sort of petty tyrant for whom bullying would be a way of life.

I would be amazed if these allegations aren't the tip of the iceberg.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, May 3, 2018, 08:47:55
I still think that we are primarily "proper in the poo" because the task is unachievable.  You can be the best football manager in the world but if you're managing San Marino then you're still fucked.
Yes, agree there. Also think your analogy is very apt - our Brexit "team" is very much San Marino, but sadly in their own minds Davis, Johnson and Fox think they're Germany.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 3, 2018, 08:58:51
Part of the problem for Bercow is that he looks and sounds like the sort of petty tyrant for whom bullying would be a way of life.

I would be amazed if these allegations aren't the tip of the iceberg.

Possibly so, although the cynic may wonder why these stories about a Speaker who has shown himself perfectly prepared to ensure that the government sticks strictly to parliamentary procedure have come out now?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, May 3, 2018, 11:01:52
Yes, agree there. Also think your analogy is very apt - our Brexit "team" is very much San Marino, but sadly in their own minds Davis, Johnson and Fox think they're Germany.

They're the Germany of cricket


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, May 3, 2018, 12:24:18
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DcQsyeKWkAYKJXm.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 3, 2018, 12:40:51
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DcQsyeKWkAYKJXm.jpg)

Don't you be coming here with evidence, that is so 2015.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, May 3, 2018, 12:42:51
The obvious counter to the facts would be that expectation is not the same as desire, but still telling.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, May 3, 2018, 13:27:23
Don't you be coming here with evidence, that is so 2015.....
That's a bbc pole and so can be dismissed without question. They report the facts the way they want them, which is why they get millions every year from the EU to pump propaganda. Nothing to see here folks just a one sided corruption version of events.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 3, 2018, 13:48:03
That's a bbc pole and so can be dismissed without question. They report the facts the way they want them, which is why they get millions every year from the EU to pump propaganda. Nothing to see here folks just a one sided corruption version of events.

The BBC have designated Polish people now...,. weird....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, May 3, 2018, 13:56:14
That's a bbc pole and so can be dismissed without question. They report the facts the way they want them, which is why they get millions every year from the EU to pump propaganda. Nothing to see here folks just a one sided corruption version of events.
(http://i.imgur.com/IkJJbRY.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, May 3, 2018, 14:24:40
Quote from: jayohaitchenn
The obvious counter to the facts would be that expectation is not the same as desire, but still telling.
yeah, people didn't know what they voted for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Thursday, May 3, 2018, 15:00:51
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DcQsyeKWkAYKJXm.jpg)

So that’s 35% of the 38% of eligible voters that voted to leave who want to leave the single market, a crushing majority;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, May 3, 2018, 15:48:46
So that’s 35% of the 38% of eligible voters that voted to leave who want to leave the single market, a crushing majority;)

*Expected* to leave the common market. A suble distinction, but distinct none the less.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, May 3, 2018, 17:35:47
I think the point is that there were a number of polls around the referendum time with Single Market/Norway/EEA friendly leave voters falling between 10-30%. Let's call them "liberal leavers".

A "harder line leaver" can argue what the implications of a vote to leave might or ought to have been.  This is rather patronising towards the liberal leavers however.  Remainers and liberal leavers can counter argue.

However, NEVER can it be said that there was any actual majority at the time against a Single Market or Norway type outcome.  Talk of democratic mandates or betrayal is laughable.

That is now parliament's job.  May even called an election (repealing the fixed term law to seek, so she claimed,  a mandate to negotiate her preferred leave terms).  Another democratic vote.

All we can now do is stand by, argumentatively perhaps but helplessly, and watch the system play itself out and hope (against hope) that it serves us well.





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, May 3, 2018, 19:53:41
These straws that seem to be clutched and waved about, are they biodegradable?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, May 3, 2018, 20:00:09
These straws that seem to be clutched and waved about, are they biodegradable?

Not yet, some are but in the near future they all will be... sorry, wrong Topic?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 4, 2018, 08:48:02
So the bellwether of Swindon has voted for more of the same, pointedly refusing to turn towards Labour.  Interesting times.  I wonder whether we have now reached 'Peak Corbyn'?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 4, 2018, 08:54:39
So the bellwether of Swindon has voted for more of the same, pointedly refusing to turn towards Labour.  Interesting times.  I wonder whether we have now reached 'Peak Corbyn'?

I will await the spin with interest, I wonder if he actually won this election like he did the one in 2017..... alas they still haven't learnt their lesson from Milliband (E) in that your supporters may think you are the messiah but if the electorate don't agree you are piddling in the wind.....

We have no idea of the results up here as they don't even start the count till this afternoon, the lazy fuckers!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 4, 2018, 09:03:38
I will await the spin with interest, I wonder if he actually won this election like he did the one in 2017..... alas they still haven't learnt their lesson from Milliband (E) in that your supporters may think you are the messiah but if the electorate don't agree you are piddling in the wind.....
Think the difference is that Miliband actually wanted to win the election whereas I get the distinct impression that Corbyn and Momentum are less interested in that than they are in cementing their grip on the Labour party. The hard left has always seen "the real enemy" in internal battles than fighting against the Tories etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 4, 2018, 09:12:37
Think the difference is that Miliband actually wanted to win the election whereas I get the distinct impression that Corbyn and Momentum are less interested in that than they are in cementing their grip on the Labour party. The hard left has always seen "the real enemy" in internal battles than fighting against the Tories etc.

New Old Labour (Momentum) are a funny old bunch, they remind me so much of Labour supporters when I was a student who were fucking clueless about the real world but liked to bang on about issues, I suppose you would call it virtue signalling these days...

There is one hard liner I engage with on another forum who I must admit from his posts I always assumed was an naive lad driven by ill informed ideology and adoration of the messiah Corbyn and thus probably in his late teens or early 20's, it transpires that after speaking to him for probably 6 months or more he is actually in his late 70's.

They have become less a political party and more a cult....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 4, 2018, 09:19:09
Think the difference is that Miliband actually wanted to win the election whereas I get the distinct impression that Corbyn and Momentum are less interested in that than they are in cementing their grip on the Labour party. The hard left has always seen "the real enemy" in internal battles than fighting against the Tories etc.

Saw something similar in a ward near me in Farnborough, but at the opposite end of the political spectrum.  See 'St Marks's' Ward, about two thirds of the way down the page.

Rushmoor Borough Council - Local Election Results (https://www.rushmoor.gov.uk/electionresults2018)

This made me smile.  Nice to see Zack Culshaw of the 'British Union & Sovereignty Party' (which I suspect is just him) splitting the Tory vote and letting the Lib Dems in through the middle.  (Read his press notice, though, and he seems more interested in fighting a battle out on the right wing vs the Tories.)  That's called a political fail, Zack.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 4, 2018, 09:43:06
Good summary by one of the pundits on the Radio this morning - "the only winners are people who like lots of elections". Labour don't look like a party ready to take the reins of government, the Tories aren't fit to govern.

My personal highlight though was the UKIP chairman deftly dodging the question of whether they'd had a bad night by comparing his own party to the Black Death (to the open incredulity of the presenter who was left all but speechless). Quite extraordinary why with talent like that they didn't attract more support.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, May 4, 2018, 10:18:19
New Old Labour (Momentum) are a funny old bunch, they remind me so much of Labour supporters when I was a student who were fucking clueless about the real world but liked to bang on about issues, I suppose you would call it virtue signalling these days...

There is one hard liner I engage with on another forum who I must admit from his posts I always assumed was an naive lad driven by ill informed ideology and adoration of the messiah Corbyn and thus probably in his late teens or early 20's, it transpires that after speaking to him for probably 6 months or more he is actually in his late 70's.

They have become less a political party and more a cult....
Reg may be stalking you :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 4, 2018, 10:30:22
Reg may be stalking you :)

You'll be hard pressed to find more than the occcasional young leftie. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, May 4, 2018, 10:35:40
Someone has to keep the red flag flying high


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 4, 2018, 10:56:39
This Swindon is a bellwether thing... where has it come from? Nationally, we tend to flip flop between the two main parties in line with the general election results, but locally we've had a conservative controlled council since 2004.

Labour win the popular vote, apparently if this translated into national trends, Buckland would have lost South Swindon and Tomlinson would have narrowly retained North Swindon.

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/992189309628362753


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, May 4, 2018, 11:14:27
"the only winners are people who like lots of elections". Labour don't look like a party ready to take the reins of government, the Tories aren't fit to govern.

Exactly.  It's either depressing or amusing depending on whether you care.  I care.   

It's rather like watching two Italian Div 2 soccer teams who have both been paid to throw the match.

I don't see how Swindon is such a great result for the Tories.  It's obviously so much easier to retain a lead when you're only contesting a third of the seats.  Extrapolate the results and Labour get in.

And now we're all going to have to listen to Vince Cable declaring yet another Richmond-led false dawn for the Lib Dems as they soar majestically from rock bottom up to the giddy heights of bottom.

Has anyone from Momentum been to retrieve their kitchen sink yet?





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 4, 2018, 11:19:12
One good thing, UKIP may as well disband now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 4, 2018, 11:29:16
This Swindon is a bellwether thing... where has it come from? Nationally, we tend to flip flop between the two main parties in line with the general election results, but locally we've had a conservative controlled council since 2004.

Labour win the popular vote, apparently if this translated into national trends, Buckland would have lost South Swindon and Tomlinson would have narrowly retained North Swindon.

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/992189309628362753

It's good though getting some national attention.... when we came up in 3rd place on the league table of target seats on the Beeb grasphic, there were some taking photos, being unaccustomed to seeing us at such lofty heights in a league table.

Overall, when the results a year ago are factored in not a bad night for Labour.  A year ago the Tories won a shed load of seats and May had something like a 20% lead in the opinion polls, which persuaded her to call the election.  Of course, no euphoria, but a need to keep chipping away.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 4, 2018, 11:45:10
One good thing, UKIP may as well disband now.

Its one of the many positives for May last night as it showed that he deliberate process of moving the party to the right and adopting many UKIP policies has bought voters back into the Tory fold, she was never going to get left or centralist votes so they rightly concentrated where there were gains to be made.

Whatever happens I am sure UKIP will retain their most important seat, the one that Farage holds at the Question Time table every other week.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 4, 2018, 11:46:31
Its one of the many positives for May last night as it showed that he deliberate process of moving the party to the right and adopting many UKIP policies has bought voters back into the Tory fold
Same trick Thatcher pulled with the NF in 79 (he says, channeling Reg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, May 4, 2018, 11:58:36
At least brown paper bag suppliers will continue to flourish in Swindon for a little longer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 4, 2018, 13:04:04
Well its one way of regaining control of a Council, Pendle was heading to no overall control until the Tories decided to readmit this member....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-40446680

But its antisemitism which is the real issue remember......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, May 4, 2018, 14:06:41
Do UKIP councillors now join Bluefin Tuna as an endangered species.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 4, 2018, 14:21:28
Do UKIP councillors now join Bluefin Tuna as an endangered species.
I'm as keen on disposing of UKIP councillors as anyone, but giving them the Mussolini treatment seems a bit harsh:
(http://c8.alamy.com/comp/A83WHN/japanese-inspectors-checking-freshly-killed-bluefin-tunas-in-a-farm-A83WHN.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, May 4, 2018, 15:02:40
I'm as keen on disposing of UKIP councillors as anyone, but giving them the Mussolini treatment seems a bit harsh:
(http://c8.alamy.com/comp/A83WHN/japanese-inspectors-checking-freshly-killed-bluefin-tunas-in-a-farm-A83WHN.jpg)

 :)

The key to the next election might boil down to who can best win the hearts and minds of those communities affected most by mass immigration.
These appear to be, in the main, traditional core Labour voting areas.
In the current environment there is possibly plenty of scope for a new populist party to spring up, which could easily be centrist, left, right, or even of an apolitical leaning, depending on the pitch.

I'd call it the "Look after the common people first you bunch of cunts" party.
A bit wordy, but I'm not sure if it can be improved upon given the general dearth of leadership talent available these days.

What's the keyboard shortcut for a circle with an A in the middle?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 4, 2018, 15:08:46
:)

The key to the next election might boil down to who can best win the hearts and minds of those communities affected most by mass immigration.
These appear to be, in the main, traditional core Labour voting areas.
In the current environment there is possibly plenty of scope for a new populist party to spring up, which could easily be centrist, left, right, or even of an apolitical leaning, depending on the pitch.

I'd call it the "Look after the common people first you bunch of cunts" party.

Farage and his money man Arron Banks already have a plan for a populist/alt right UKIP 2.0. It's more likely to be a "Pretend to pander to the common people while being a bunch of cunts" party. Whether it gets launched depends to some extent on whether Farage wants the hassle, he's quite comfortable these days making a pile of money talking shite on the US right-wing talk show circuit. But if he gibs it, Banks will find someone else to front it. Be interesting (in the Chinese curse sense of the word) if Banks linked up with Jim Dowson.

What's the keyboard shortcut for a circle with an A in the middle?
@?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, May 4, 2018, 17:55:45
This made me laugh. I love how the tories losing seats has been framed as a 'lack of big gains'.

(https://i.imgur.com/DhFbo9M.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 4, 2018, 18:58:21
Things Ummuna will demand an enquiry into: Labour gaining in an election
Things Ummuna won't demand an enquiry into: Illegal war in Iraq


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, May 4, 2018, 19:11:01
Things Ummuna will demand an enquiry into: Labour gaining in an election
Things Ummuna won't demand an enquiry into: Illegal war in Iraq
He defifnitely loves himself.
If ever there was a rime for a centrist party, now is it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, May 4, 2018, 20:20:27
Farage and his money man Arron Banks already have a plan for a populist/alt right UKIP 2.0. It's more likely to be a "Pretend to pander to the common people while being a bunch of cunts" party. Whether it gets launched depends to some extent on whether Farage wants the hassle, he's quite comfortable these days making a pile of money talking shite on the US right-wing talk show circuit. But if he gibs it, Banks will find someone else to front it. Be interesting (in the Chinese curse sense of the word) if Banks linked up with Jim Downing.
@?

Can we please ensure that Jarvis Cocker fronts this new party for the Common People?  I would get my coat, but I haven't had one in two years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 4, 2018, 22:33:05
Can we please ensure that Jarvis Cocker fronts this new party for the Common People? 
Clearly this should be enacted in electoral law as soon as is practically possible


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 10:57:34
EEA anyone? (Especially interested in views from Brexiteers, given the discussion on here recently that people didn't vote to leave the single market, but the political union)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/08/labour-peers-force-may-to-give-mps-vote-over-single-market-plans


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:15:04
EEA anyone? (Especially interested in views from Brexiteers, given the discussion on here recently that people didn't vote to leave the single market, but the political union)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/08/labour-peers-force-may-to-give-mps-vote-over-single-market-plans

I was amused to see the Brexiteers foaming over the amendment passed in the House, but posited by the Duke of Wellington, who is happily married to Princess Antonia of Prussia. You'd think the Honourable Member for the 18th Century, would be fully in favour of such intervention... though I suppose it might be considered a bit 19th century for his tastes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:18:18
EEA anyone? (Especially interested in views from Brexiteers, given the discussion on here recently that people didn't vote to leave the single market, but the political union)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/08/labour-peers-force-may-to-give-mps-vote-over-single-market-plans
I wanted to leave both the single market and political union. This vote is not surprising. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:26:02
I wanted to leave both the single market and political union. This vote is not surprising. 
OK, so you'd be agin it then I take it? Why specifically?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:50:02
EEA anyone? (Especially interested in views from Brexiteers, given the discussion on here recently that people didn't vote to leave the single market, but the political union)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/08/labour-peers-force-may-to-give-mps-vote-over-single-market-plans

Exactly what I argued for previously, and a perfect example of why an upper house is necessary.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 12:03:37
EEA anyone? (Especially interested in views from Brexiteers, given the discussion on here recently that people didn't vote to leave the single market, but the political union)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/08/labour-peers-force-may-to-give-mps-vote-over-single-market-plans

Probably won't make a jot of difference whilst Corbyn is acting as May's (very ignorant and ill informed) facilitator....

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/05/09/lords-vote-no-place-left-for-corbyn-to-hide


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 10, 2018, 09:12:19
 Trump's plan to withdraw from the Iran nuclear deal and punish European countries who continue to trade with Iran, seems to throw a large spannner into the Brexit works.

 As I understand it, the EU has a trade deal with Iran that has allowed trade to flourish, as it is a growing market with a young population. Apparently our trade lags behind, but the fact other countries are successful suggests it's nothing to do with the EU model.  Therefore the EU wish to distance themselves from Trump.

Presumably the Brexiteers dream is that we can undercut the EU, by restoring more Victorian working conditions, tax regimes and environmental controls.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, May 10, 2018, 10:15:34
Presumably the Brexiteers dream is that we can undercut the EU, by restoring more Victorian working conditions, tax regimes and environmental controls.
Suspect Victorian working conditions might be a bit modern for Walter Rees-Mogg


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 11, 2018, 11:44:26
Some thoughts on where we are at the moment, shamelessly stolen from politics.co.uk

'Nothing is going on. You can leave the room of British politics without pausing it, go make a cup of tea, and it'll still be in the same place when you get back.
 
Theresa May has reached an impasse in the Cabinet. Idea one is staying in the customs union. She can't do that because the Brexiters will not accept it. Idea two is a customs partnership, which is either an invented system already rejected by the EU or a sneaky rebranding on customs union membership - no-one is quite sure, including probably herself. She can't do this because the Brexiters will not accept it either. Idea three is a so-called 'maximum facilitation' model, which is basically a fancy name for using smartphone apps to not check lorries at the border. She can't do that because Cabinet moderates and the EU won't accept it. She's stuck.
 
Nearly every day there is a newspaper report saying that May's team or some other minister have a new plan to move things along, and that new plan always involves delaying things. The latest wheeze is to have May divide the Cabinet into two groups - you'll remember this from school - and have them duke out the differences between the partnership and 'max-fac' systems. But of course this involves pointing out the problems with the models, which are legion, and that will invariably lead to her saying both need more work, which was itself what the government was saying last summer when it released its original position paper on the subject. And that then means she'll have to delay again. It's political purgatory.
 
Both sides of this fantasy-land debate have their own delaying tactics. Former May aide Nick Timothy, who supports the 'max-fac' model, is suggesting that they could perhaps extend the transition period to get it all set up. In truth, they'd need to extend it by about eight further years and join the single market if it was to have any chance of success, but that is a level of objective reality he is not yet ready for. Nevertheless, the fact hard Brexiters are starting to acknowledge what all experts are saying - that a two-year transition is clearly not enough time - is worth noting. Wherever you look, delay is the only inspiration.
 
Over in parliament, nothing is also happening. Commons leader Andrea Leadsom has given no timings for the return of the EU withdrawal bill from the Lords, or indeed any news on any of the other Brexit bills. The 14 Lords amendments aren't being brought to the Commons because the government is afraid it will lose. Plus it is quite hard to whip MPs into a position when the Cabinet cannot agree on one.
 
So Cabinet cannot reach a decision because it does not know what it is doing and parliament is not allowed to scrutinise legislation because the government cannot trust that it will do the right thing even though it doesn't know what that is. And all the while Brussels sits there waiting, as the Article 50 clock ticks remorselessly down.
 
We have all become slowly accustomed to this level of ideological and practical ineptitude. But in the future, historians will marvel at how the government was allowed to behave this way with comparatively little outrage, given the scale of the inadequacy.'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, May 11, 2018, 11:54:24
It's pretty simple.  You just get the fuck out, send the army to the NI border and wait for the Islamist Extremists to be pushed out by the New Real IRA.  The country voted for Out, give them their medicine.  Just like this one here has to put up with the idiot they voted for until 2021 to get about 10,000 steel and coal jobs secured.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, May 11, 2018, 18:18:12
Some thoughts on where we are at the moment, shamelessly stolen from politics.co.uk

'Nothing is going on. You can leave the room of British politics without pausing it, go make a cup of tea, and it'll still be in the same place when you get back.
 
Theresa May has reached an impasse in the Cabinet. Idea one is staying in the customs union. She can't do that because the Brexiters will not accept it. Idea two is a customs partnership, which is either an invented system already rejected by the EU or a sneaky rebranding on customs union membership - no-one is quite sure, including probably herself. She can't do this because the Brexiters will not accept it either. Idea three is a so-called 'maximum facilitation' model, which is basically a fancy name for using smartphone apps to not check lorries at the border. She can't do that because Cabinet moderates and the EU won't accept it. She's stuck.
 
Nearly every day there is a newspaper report saying that May's team or some other minister have a new plan to move things along, and that new plan always involves delaying things. The latest wheeze is to have May divide the Cabinet into two groups - you'll remember this from school - and have them duke out the differences between the partnership and 'max-fac' systems. But of course this involves pointing out the problems with the models, which are legion, and that will invariably lead to her saying both need more work, which was itself what the government was saying last summer when it released its original position paper on the subject. And that then means she'll have to delay again. It's political purgatory.
 
Both sides of this fantasy-land debate have their own delaying tactics. Former May aide Nick Timothy, who supports the 'max-fac' model, is suggesting that they could perhaps extend the transition period to get it all set up. In truth, they'd need to extend it by about eight further years and join the single market if it was to have any chance of success, but that is a level of objective reality he is not yet ready for. Nevertheless, the fact hard Brexiters are starting to acknowledge what all experts are saying - that a two-year transition is clearly not enough time - is worth noting. Wherever you look, delay is the only inspiration.
 
Over in parliament, nothing is also happening. Commons leader Andrea Leadsom has given no timings for the return of the EU withdrawal bill from the Lords, or indeed any news on any of the other Brexit bills. The 14 Lords amendments aren't being brought to the Commons because the government is afraid it will lose. Plus it is quite hard to whip MPs into a position when the Cabinet cannot agree on one.
 
So Cabinet cannot reach a decision because it does not know what it is doing and parliament is not allowed to scrutinise legislation because the government cannot trust that it will do the right thing even though it doesn't know what that is. And all the while Brussels sits there waiting, as the Article 50 clock ticks remorselessly down.
 
We have all become slowly accustomed to this level of ideological and practical ineptitude. But in the future, historians will marvel at how the government was allowed to behave this way with comparatively little outrage, given the scale of the inadequacy.'

To summarise:

Theresa:       We want unicorns!

EU:              Sorry, no unicorns :no:

Boris:           unicorns are *crazy*, we want dragons!

EU:              sorry, no dragons :no:

Theresa:       Right, we’ll split into two teams. One will look at unicorns, the other at dragons!

EU:               sigh....

Public:           :zzz:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 11, 2018, 19:28:57
People need to be reasonable.  If the vote in favour of Leave was 70%+, I would have far more sympathy with the view that we had to leave everything.  But it wasn't.  A 51.9% vote in favour of anything is going to involve a degree of compromise somewhere along the line.

Apologies for quoting myself, but when I read (link below) that Dan Hannan, no less, had now come round to my way of thinking, I had to have a lie down.   :D :D :D

Hannan Calls for Moderate Withdrawal (http://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-dan-hannan-moderate-withdrawal/)

'Tory MEP and Brexiteer Dan Hannan has said leaving the EU is not going to plan so far, and called for a “moderate form of withdrawal”, in a blog post on the Conservative Home website.  He said he wants to see a Brexit that recognises the narrow win of the leave campaign.  And “leaves intact a number of existing arrangements”, suggesting a hard Brexit has started to look unappealing.'

First time I've heard a Brexit supporter admitting, finally, that a 52%/48% split in the referendum vote was going to mean compromise was inevitable.  I'd add 'fair' & 'reasonable' to that list as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 11, 2018, 19:37:26
Apologies for quoting myself, but when I read (link below) that Dan Hannan, no less, had now come round to my way of thinking, I had to have a lie down.   :D :D :D

Hannan Calls for Moderate Withdrawal (http://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-dan-hannan-moderate-withdrawal/)

'Tory MEP and Brexiteer Dan Hannan has said leaving the EU is not going to plan so far, and called for a “moderate form of withdrawal”, in a blog post on the Conservative Home website.  He said he wants to see a Brexit that recognises the narrow win of the leave campaign.  And “leaves intact a number of existing arrangements”, suggesting a hard Brexit has started to look unappealing.'

First time I've heard a Brexit supporter admitting, finally, that a 52%/48% split in the referendum vote was going to mean compromise was inevitable.  I'd add 'fair' & 'reasonable' to that list as well.
Not only that but the admission that "a hard Brexit has started to look unappealing", coming from one of the original and most hard core of Eurosceptics is quite astonishing. He's campaigned for a hard Brexit for years, now he's had a look into the abyss and he's gone off the idea when he and his mates may well have ended up landing us all with it. Incredible.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 11, 2018, 19:37:31
I wouldn't apologise for that. The quoted post is entirely sensible.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, May 11, 2018, 20:11:17
According to the media today (the independent) if we leave the EU then the north of England will suffer massive job losses. That will put and end to all the ship building, coal mining, the twinnigs factory in North shields will transfer to Poland and the fishing Industry will all but disapear.  You will also have to buy your mustard from Germany, that's what Brexit independence brings! 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 11, 2018, 20:36:41
According to the media today (the independent) if we leave the EU then the north of England will suffer massive job losses. That will put and end to all the ship building, coal mining, the twinnigs factory in North shields will transfer to Poland and the fishing Industry will all but disapear.  You will also have to buy your mustard from Germany, that's what Brexit independence brings! 

Are you sure the paper you read was up to date?  Twinnings tea factory was moved to Poland 6 years ago. All the other jobs largely went before that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, May 11, 2018, 21:05:45
Are you sure the paper you read was up to date?  Twinnings tea factory was moved to Poland 6 years ago. All the other jobs largely went before that.
What are you saying, that we've lost all those jobs before Brexit! that can't be true. Everyday there's a story of massive brexit Job losses, never any about million lost because of EU membership.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 11, 2018, 21:14:18
What are you saying, that we've lost all those jobs before Brexit! that can't be true. Everyday there's a story of massive brexit Job losses, never any about million lost because of EU membership.
Ha ha, trap sprung, you walked into that one Reg - everyone knows those jobs were lost to Thatcherism ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 11, 2018, 21:18:07
While we're on Brexit, good to see that Banks and Farage's Cambridge Analytica mob have been officially unrecognised as illegally cheating during the referendum campaign and the coppers have now been called in

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44080096


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, May 11, 2018, 21:31:01
While we're on Brexit, good to see that Banks and Farage's Cambridge Analytica mob have been officially unrecognised as illegally cheating during the referendum campaign and the coppers have now been called in

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44080096
Yeah, you lost your point with a link to the brussels broadcasting corporation. Give me an unbiased article please.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 11, 2018, 21:48:47
Yeah, you lost your point with a link to the brussels broadcasting corporation. Give me an unbiased article please.
(https://i.imgflip.com/c4o9w.jpg?a423792)
here you go, that right-wing enough for you?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/05/11/leaveeu-campaign-group-fined-70000-breachingspending-rules-eu/

Think the Mail reported it as well, but you can go slumming it over there if you want


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 12, 2018, 01:05:56
Ha ha, trap sprung, you walked into that one Reg - everyone knows those jobs were lost to Thatcherism ;)

It might expalin why the norveners voted so heavily for Brexit.... nothing to lose. I thought it was because they preferred a no wage economy, their drug habits funded by benefits and petty crime.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Saturday, May 12, 2018, 23:05:29
It might expalin why the norveners voted so heavily for Brexit.... nothing to lose. I thought it was because they preferred a no wage economy, their drug habits funded by benefits and petty crime.

Fucking hell Reg.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, May 13, 2018, 01:16:41
Fucking hell Reg.

Sorry Ells, however there is a serious point within the flippancy. Why did the old industrial north and South Wales vote so heavily for Brexit  :hmmm:  The paradox is that it's a cry for socialism, but presented by arch capitalists. Jeremy gets it, but many in the party don't.

The global capitalist position is that if Twinnings move to Poland, then the workers of North Shields should move to Poland and compete for work there. Jeremy's position is that as long as we want to drink tea, and the workers of North Shields can put it on the shelves, then why shouldn't they stay near the Tyne. That will need to be fought for...



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Sunday, May 13, 2018, 12:34:24
Pandering won't get the Labour party into power though.  Too much protectionism and they lose the votes in London by and large, and with the SNP controlling the same policy in Scotland they wouldn't win an election.  It would be the 80's all over again.

It's the paradox of modern politics.  Parties seem stuck trying to figure out where the right and left is these days.  You have right wing parties seemingly trying to look like they are a party of the workers!  Cameron's mate who is on Fox over here now seems to be stoking it - which is ironic given his personal position in life is precisely the Elite he seems to cry foul about.  It's like the UK parties ignored the method of Blair and how it delivered a huge majority.  Forget the Iraq war and him going so far up his own arse in he could brush his teeth from the inside, his ability to deliver a message down the middle marginlised that debate on either side.  A little bit of growing an economy will sort out the Unemployment and we probably shouldn't stifle that growth via obvious tax targeting, but while we are at it we will introduce a minimum wage and let new parents have time off work.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, May 13, 2018, 20:14:19
I was born in Swindon and have lived my life in a council house, I'm not and never have been a Tory voter obviously. In fact I deplore political extremism of all kinds, as history has shown us the damage caused. That said I rejoyce everytime the Uk Labour communist party loose an election. For 200 years communisium has been kicking around and its worked and never will.What gets me is when people scream about the Nazi far right but love the commies who killed millions for their own self enrichment. Its the year 2018 and politics is far so behind the modern world.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JoeMezz on Sunday, May 13, 2018, 20:41:27
I was born in Swindon and have lived my life in a council house, I'm not and never have been a Tory voter obviously. In fact I deplore political extremism of all kinds, as history has shown us the damage caused. That said I rejoyce everytime the Uk Labour communist party loose an election. For 200 years communisium has been kicking around and its worked and never will.What gets me is when people scream about the Nazi far right but love the commies who killed millions for their own self enrichment. Its the year 2018 and politics is far so behind the modern world.

*lose


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Sunday, May 13, 2018, 21:04:19
I was born in Swindon and have lived my life in a council house, I'm not and never have been a Tory voter obviously. In fact I deplore political extremism of all kinds, as history has shown us the damage caused. That said I rejoyce everytime the Uk Labour communist party loose an election. For 200 years communisium has been kicking around and its worked and never will.What gets me is when people scream about the Nazi far right but love the commies who killed millions for their own self enrichment. Its the year 2018 and politics is far so behind the modern world.

True Communism hasn't been tried, a homage to it with the usual Human trait of greed has failed a fair bit though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, May 14, 2018, 09:02:42
Fucking hate that saying. True capitalism hasn't been tried either. Neither has true democracy. Pointless statement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 14, 2018, 09:12:06
It might expalin why the norveners voted so heavily for Brexit.... nothing to lose. I thought it was because they preferred a no wage economy, their drug habits funded by benefits and petty crime.

I am sorry to say, but from personal experience in both the North West and West Yorkshire, the overarching reason that many people voted for Brexit is that they were under the ill-informed impression that it would man fewer brown faces in their towns...

FWIW they have everything to lose, but have been rather duped by those with little to lose and wealthy patrons to keep happy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 14, 2018, 09:23:27
The global capitalist position is that if Twinnings move to Poland, then the workers of North Shields should move to Poland and compete for work there. Jeremy's position is that as long as we want to drink tea, and the workers of North Shields can put it on the shelves, then why shouldn't they stay near the Tyne. That will need to be fought for...


Twinnings moved from North Shields 8 years ago - factory reopened about 6 years ago as Spicers? whilst Jeremy's plan to take us out of the SM will reduce the competitiveness of the plant to the EU market and thus possibly make things even worse for the merry tea makers of South Tyneside.

On matters of the EU I cannot decide whether Corbyn is a) incredibly ill-informed or b) a downright liar as all his protestations regarding state aid are complete bollocks and actually with his socialist hat on he should actually embrace state aid rules. (it is in no way a barrier to nationalisation or public ownership!)

Sadly I fear he is  anot particularly bright opportunist who can not operate much above student politics levels, hence why May is getting by as Corbyn is betraying his party members (80%+ of whom want to stay in the SM/CU) by facilitating her actions, the big question will be whether momentum manage to prevent a debate on the EU membership at conference again like they did last year...

We have the Tories that cannot even decide in cabinet what they are aiming for, whilst Labour (who like to make a song and dance about members deciding policy) with a leadership ignoring the membership and trying to prevent debate on the issue for fear the leadership loses.

Whilst the EU watches on in despair.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, May 14, 2018, 10:57:51
Corbyn's stance on the EU is annoying and wrong. One area where I completely disagree with him.

There isn't another mainstream figure promoting the end of austerity though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 23, 2018, 09:06:16
Johnson's such a knobend

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44221524


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, May 23, 2018, 09:20:57
Twinnings moved from North Shields 8 years ago - factory reopened about 6 years ago as Spicers? whilst Jeremy's plan to take us out of the SM will reduce the competitiveness of the plant to the EU market and thus possibly make things even worse for the merry tea makers of South Tyneside.

Yeah because we export so much Tea to Coffee drinking europe.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, May 23, 2018, 13:09:22
It all comes over to me, think this one is a Brexit Red Herring.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 25, 2018, 07:20:47
Trump's letter (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/24/trump-cancel-north-korea-summit-chaos#img-2) to North Korea is a thing of beauty.  And the final sentence of the first paragraph lays it all bare:

'You talk about your nuclear capabilities, but ours are so massive and powerful that I pray to God they will never have to be used.'

A psychologist's dream.  Surely it would have been more honest, direct & straight forward simply to say 'It's true.  I have the smallest penis you could ever imagine.'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, May 25, 2018, 07:37:39
I think Trump is an easy target but his unconventional methods may well work. North Korea looks promising although a long way to go. Its a new era of politics and I think its fair to say Obama just kicked the can up the road on a number of external issues. Trump is certainly bringing them to a head, whether good or bad remains to be seen but it might just work.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 25, 2018, 08:26:22
Maybe true.  By nature, Trump's a disrupter.  He blows things up and then sees where the pieces land.  I can't help but feel that if he does get a result, it will be more by luck than judgement - and that he will have risked a great deal in getting there.

No quibble with the Obama comment, by the way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 25, 2018, 08:48:37
Maybe true.  By nature, Trump's a disrupter.  He blows things up and then sees where the pieces land.
Which clearly has worked quite well for him in building a property empire. The stakes are considerably higher when dealing with unstable nuclear armed dictators though - the "blowing things up and seeing where the pieces land" is likely to become considerably less metaphorical. I'd say he's about evens to either achieve a massive breakthrough by trying a wholly different approach to the one they've been using for years without success or cause the deaths of millions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 25, 2018, 08:50:41
Johnson's such a knobend

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44221524
And again

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44239479

Surprisingly, it turns out that if you appoint a complete oaf as Foreign Secretary you become an international laughing stock. Who'da thunk it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 25, 2018, 09:52:03
  I wonder if Brexiteers voted to withdraw our access to the Galileo satellite system  :hmmm:

 Apparently we signed up in 2011, to an agreement that 3rd countries couldn't have access to manufacture or information, and are now to become a 3rd country.

 Hammond has said we'll just have to build our own  :)

 Of course, we had our own back in the early 70's, but a series of economic shocks tanked the economy, precipitating the move to join the EEC and other European co-operative bodies.   Prospero....

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/09/07/article-2034379-0DC14C3000000578-671_233x285.jpg)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, June 7, 2018, 11:14:03
Prediction time. General Election before the year's out. Labour run on an anti Brexit agenda - (possibly without Corbs as leader), win and Brexit over. Tories can't really run on anything other than Brexit agenda. Will keep May in charge and new leader elected straight after.
Could be any number of reasons to call a general election - not sure which will win out.
EU tactics of sitting back agreeing nothing and letting the UK tear itself apart appear spot on.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, June 7, 2018, 11:15:31
Nadine Dorries is a fucking idiot:

David Davis is ex SAS He’s trained to survive. He’s also trained to take people out. #Brexit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 7, 2018, 11:23:36
Prediction time. General Election before the year's out. Labour run on an anti Brexit agenda - (possibly without Corbs as leader), win and Brexit over. Tories can't really run on anything other than Brexit agenda. Will keep May in charge and new leader elected straight after.
Could be any number of reasons to call a general election - not sure which will win out.
EU tactics of sitting back agreeing nothing and letting the UK tear itself apart appear spot on.

I read a fairly compelling piece whilst I was away which suggested that the best way to end Brexit is to get rid of Corbyn rather than May, the Tories are desperate to keep her there spinning the plates as if Rees-Mogg or Johnson etc were not pathetic cowards and actually belived they could deliver Brexit without fucking the economy they would have made a bid months back.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, June 7, 2018, 11:32:23
Prediction time. General Election before the year's out. Labour run on an anti Brexit agenda - (possibly without Corbs as leader), win and Brexit over. Tories can't really run on anything other than Brexit agenda. Will keep May in charge and new leader elected straight after.
Could be any number of reasons to call a general election - not sure which will win out.
EU tactics of sitting back agreeing nothing and letting the UK tear itself apart appear spot on.

Anything is possible, but my instinct is the Tories will drift on for fear of worse. The May locals were OK for them, and their poll ratings are still steady.

The EU have just done exactly what you'd expect, the onus has always been on the UK to decide what it wants, and there's the problem, it was never thought through by the leave side.

The above piece about satellites, being a classic example, when in we agree a deal not to give access to 3rd countries, then as a prospective 3rd country expect it not to apply. This is the having our cake and eating it Brexit, and it makes no sense.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, June 7, 2018, 11:39:15
The above piece about satellites, being a classic example, when in we agree a deal not to give access to 3rd countries, then as a prospective 3rd country expect it not to apply. This is the having our cake and eating it Brexit, and it makes no sense.
You could argue though that having contributed shedloads to get it up and running it is partly our asset and that the EU should either buy out our stake or we continue funding and have access.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, June 7, 2018, 12:24:03
You could argue though that having contributed shedloads to get it up and running it is partly our asset and that the EU should either buy out our stake or we continue funding and have access.

Well yes, this is what Leave argued that the EU need us more than we need them, so they'd just roll over and do things as you suggest, but all these things are tied up in laws and treaties which we've spent 40 odd years signing up to. (It may take 40 odd years to unpick. I that sense the Moggites who want to go over the cliff and start again, have an element of logic to back them up, it's just that it is reckless.

So to use the satellite example, we could build our own, or go into partnership with say India, but why would you want to when already involved in a world leading organisation?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, June 7, 2018, 12:42:16
It is true that the worst of the predictions by Remainers like Osborne are now looking exaggerated.  Leave however squeaked home with 51.9%.  Two years down the line, it is instructive to ask whether Leave's pre - referendum promises retain much or any credibility?  

(1) More money for the NHS

Vote Leave’s battle bus said: “We send the EU £350 million a week. Let’s fund our NHS instead”

“Instead of sending £350 million per week to Brussels, we will spend it on our priorities like the NHS and education.” – Vote Leave briefing

“After we Vote Leave on 23 June, the Government should use some of the billions saved from leaving the EU to give at least a £100 million per week cash transfusion to the NHS.” – Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, and Gisela Stuart

(2) More money for farmers

“The UK government will continue to give farmers and the environment as much support – or perhaps even more – as they get now.” – George Eustice, Minister for Farming, Food and Marine Environment

(3) More money for scientists


“If we Vote Leave, we will be able to increase funding to science and still save billions” –Vote Leave

(4) More money in your pocket

“Wages will be higher for working people outside the EU… because pay will no longer be undercut by uncontrolled migration.” – Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, and Gisela Stuart

(5) And scrapping VAT on fuel bills and tampons


“In 1993, VAT on household energy bills was imposed… When we Vote Leave, we will be able to scrap this unfair and damaging tax.” – Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, and Gisela Stuart

‘After we Vote Leave… We will need a carefully managed negotiation process and some major legislative changes before 2020, including taking real steps… to abolish VAT on fuel and tampons” – Chris Grayling

(6) No EU beneficiaries left worse-off

“There is more than enough money to ensure that those who now get funding from the EU – including universities, scientists, family farmers, regional funds, cultural organisations and others – will continue to do so… We will continue to fund EU programmes in the UK until 2020” – Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, and Priti Patel (amongst other signatories)

(7) And no short-term economic disruption


“After we Vote Leave, there won’t be a sudden change that disrupts the economy.” – Boris Johnson, Gisela Stuart and Michael Gove

(8) We’ll get brand new trade deals all over the world


“We would immediately be able to start negotiating new trade deals… which could enter into force immediately after the UK leaves the EU” – Chris Grayling

(9) There’ll be no damage to trade with the EU

“There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it… Britain will have access to the Single Market after we vote leave… The idea that our trade will suffer because we stop imposing terrible rules such as the Clinical Trial Directive is silly.” Vote Leave

(10) Or our cooperation with the EU

“We will negotiate a UK-EU Treaty that enables us 1) to continue cooperating in many areas just as now (e.g. maritime surveillance), 2) to deepen cooperation in some areas (e.g. scientific collaborations and counter-terrorism)” – Vote Leave

(11) Guaranteed in a treaty which we’ll sort out before 2020


“It will be possible to negotiate a new settlement with the EU, including a UK-EU free trade deal, by the next general election in May 2020” – Vote Leave

(12) Which won’t have any obligation to follow EU laws


“The supremacy of EU law and the jurisdiction of the European Court over the UK will come to an end” Vote Leave

(13) We’ll cut immigration

“I wouldn’t set a time limit for it but the ambition would be to bring it down to tens of thousands.” – Michael Gove

(14) With a new system in place by 2020

“By the next general election, we will create a genuine Australian-style points based immigration system.” – Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Gisela Stuart

(15) That doesn’t favour EU citizens

“Those seeking entry for work or study should be admitted on the basis of their skills without discrimination on the ground of nationality.” – Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Gisela Stuart

“[We will introduce a bill to] end the automatic right of all EU citizens to enter the UK by the next election” – Vote Leave

(16) But which gives Irish citizens total free access

“The right of Irish citizens to enter, reside and work in the UK is already enshrined in our law. This will be entirely unaffected by a vote to leave on 23 June.” – Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Gisela Stuart

(17) And stronger border controls

“There is one absolutely clear-cut dividend from leaving the EU. That is our ability to regain control of our borders, including far stronger powers over who we can deport, and proper preventative checks at the border.” – Dominic Raab

(18) But no controls on the Northern Irish land border with the EU

“There will be no change to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.” – Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Gisela Stuart

(19) And the union with Scotland will be stronger than ever


“If we vote to leave then I think the union will be stronger… I think when we vote to leave it will be clear that having voted to leave one union the last thing people in Scotland wanted to do is to break up another.” – Michael Gove

(20) The UK holds all the cards

"The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want" -  Michael Gove


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 7, 2018, 14:20:33
Well yes, this is what Leave argued that the EU need us more than we need them, so they'd just roll over and do things as you suggest, but all these things are tied up in laws and treaties which we've spent 40 odd years signing up to.

And in a large number of cases actually pressed the EU to adopt....  :wtf:

It may take 40 odd years to unpick.

We are going to be paying them until 2064 so perhaps the two can run in tandem...  :contract:

So to use the satellite example, we could build our own, or go into partnership with say India, but why would you want to when already involved in a world leading organisation?

Amusingly if we decide to go it alone we would have to open all the contracts up to EU companies to bid for them due to WTO rules.....  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 7, 2018, 14:23:59
It is true that the worst of the predictions by Remainers like Osborne are now looking exaggerated.  

Rather depends how you look at things considering that we haven't actually left yet, nor have our shambolic government been able to give a clue as to how we will actually leave, business is getting very jumpy and it only takes a couple of trigger fingers to head towards the panic button and things like automotive, financials etc could take a hammering rather sharpish, add to that agriculture and Goves attempts to turn us into some kind of country park and who knows.


Vote Leave’s battle bus

Just illustrates everything that was wrong with the referedum and the level of mnisinformation that abounded both at the time and subsequently....
















It was a coach, not a fucking bus!  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, June 8, 2018, 15:52:07
   I'm surprised there's been no comment on Dacre going at The Heil.  The word is that his successor, is a Remainer, he previously edited the MoS.

  Could be a sign that the owners think they've backed the wrong horse and won't be thanked for helping tank the economy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 8, 2018, 19:52:28
   I'm surprised there's been no comment on Dacre going at The Heil.  The word is that his successor, is a Remainer, he previously edited the MoS.

  Could be a sign that the owners think they've backed the wrong horse and won't be thanked for helping tank the economy.
According to the meeja correspondents on radio this morning, he and Dacre hate each other and even though Dacre has nominally been booted upstairs as Editor in Chief of the whole group, Greig will be reporting directly to the owners. It was being seen as a deliberate attempt to "detoxify" the brand. Good luck with that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Sunday, June 10, 2018, 20:18:27
Apart from the fact the Daily Mail has the highest readership in the UK only the Sun and Metro are higher and readership is 3 times the daily mirror


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, June 10, 2018, 21:40:23
Apart from the fact the Daily Mail has the highest readership in the UK only the Sun and Metro are higher and readership is 3 times the daily mirror
OMG, Plowman, Horlock et al will choke on their bread & dripping or gruel in the morning at that stunning news. Mind you at the price the Metro charge unless you get a freebie that is bigging their readership up a bit much.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, June 11, 2018, 06:16:16
Apart from the fact the Daily Mail has the highest readership in the UK only the Sun and Metro are higher and readership is 3 times the daily mirror

#DailyMailFactCheck


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 11, 2018, 09:32:21
Apart from the fact the Daily Mail has the highest readership in the UK only the Sun and Metro are higher and readership is 3 times the daily mirror
And?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, June 11, 2018, 12:32:59
Apart from the fact the Daily Mail has the highest readership in the UK only the Sun and Metro are higher and readership is 3 times the daily mirror

People slow down to see car accidents on the motorway, it doesn't mean they like them and want to be in them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Monday, June 11, 2018, 16:57:17
It’s all about opinions same as any newspaper.

Just because you lot don’t like or agree with it does not mean others don’t


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, June 11, 2018, 18:26:02
Yep.

I've always maintained that as vile as the Daily Mail is, the 'real' problem is that so many people buy the fucking thing. That it's so popular is a sad reflection on society.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, June 11, 2018, 18:31:24
So people are idiots.
hold the front page!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, June 11, 2018, 19:47:29
Yep.

I've always maintained that as vile as the Daily Mail is, the 'real' problem is that so many people buy the fucking thing. That it's so popular is a sad reflection on society.

The question as to whether the petty bigotry and small minded xenophobia of the average Mail reader is driven by the paper and its editor or the paper just panders to its readers' prejudices is interesting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, June 11, 2018, 20:32:35
People like people like themselves, therefore, prejudice is never far away without reliable information.

The Daily Mail knows this, and can present a Bogeyman approach, but they are not alone.  We do it ourselves in conversation, just to to the same extreme the media can manage.

Take immigration - how the hell do millions of people "KNOW" that immigration results in jobs being taken away, or undue pressure on the NHS etc.  Do they physically see it happening - rarely.  But maybe they know someone who did know someone who did lose their job and someone who wasn't the same as them got the job later.  Already this plays on our own fears of not being so keen on people not like ourselves.  The Daily Mail can come along and sprinkle the opposite of fairy dust on this conversation without even the need for facts most of the time and make anecdotes become the norm.

So, people have the ability to be racist, to be fearful of others.  It's natural - The Daily Mail is an abomination because it sets out specifically to stoke those fears and inflate them, then to reinforce them.

The Daily Mirror is precisely the same the other way around in Political terms.  The whole new Populist movement is playing off of it as well.  Life becomes simple when simple solutions to problems are presented which also play to primal fears.  Cameron's ex-mate Hilton is over here spouting this shit on Fox News - someone is to blame for everyone who doesn't have a job, it's the Globalist Elite (of which he is part, by any definition that can be created).  It's the new Muslim invasion, or East European, or Technology/Automation, or people inventing bloody wheels, or those Celts, or Romans, and so on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 11, 2018, 20:44:58
It’s all about opinions same as any newspaper.

Just because you lot don’t like or agree with it does not mean others don’t
Which is fine. But it's got fuck all to do with the BBC's media correspondent's take on what replacing Dacre with Greig might indicate in terms of the Mail's future stance, which I thought was quite interesting. You might too if you'd read the post properly instead of knee-jerking


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Monday, June 11, 2018, 21:54:04
But you then went on to talk about how toxic the Mail is and that it may change it’s referendum stance with a new guy in charge.

And then on this forum you all spoke about it detoxifying the mail brand.

Truth is you hate anyone who does not share your opinions and views- people share different political views it does not mean anyone is right or wrong


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Monday, June 11, 2018, 22:23:57
But you then went on to talk about how toxic the Mail is and that it may change it’s referendum stance with a new guy in charge.

And then on this forum you all spoke about it detoxifying the mail brand.

Truth is you hate anyone who does not share your opinions and views- people share different political views it does not mean anyone is right or wrong

The Mail lies/misrepresents things to suit their agenda. It's not about not agreeing with an opinion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, June 12, 2018, 05:52:05
It baffles me that people can't see through the bullshit of the Daily Mail, and other publications for that matter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 12, 2018, 08:51:58
But you then went on to talk about how toxic the Mail is and that it may change it’s referendum stance with a new guy in charge.

And then on this forum you all spoke about it detoxifying the mail brand.
Nope, that was all part of what the BBC's media correspondent had discussed as being possible rationale for the rejig and in particular the lop-sided reporting chain. "Detoxifying" was verbatim by the way
Truth is you hate anyone who does not share your opinions and views
That might be your perception, but I'm afraid it's bollocks. For one thing, you don't know what my opinions and views are and secondly, as this episode clearly illustrates, your perception of that might well be down to how you're (mis)reading what I've posted, not what I actually said.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 12, 2018, 09:49:08
Which is fine. But it's got fuck all to do with the BBC's media correspondent's take on what replacing Dacre with Greig might indicate in terms of the Mail's future stance, which I thought was quite interesting. You might too if you'd read the post properly instead of knee-jerking

I imagine it will make little difference bar possibly a toning down of some of the inflammatory stuff(Traitors etc) Dacre has peddled, remember the Express has now been sold on by Dirty Desmond to Trinity Mirror who generally have a remain stance but the Express has just continued to print what sells it to the readership and fuels the need for someone to blame for your own shortcomings.

If you are interested in such things the most interesting fact about Dacre being moved upstairs is that Greig will be answering directly to Rothermere and Dacre has been sidelined entirely, which rather supports the rumours that his departure was at the request of Lady Rothermere who was finding it rather awkward with her sell healed friends whilst their paper was attacking them with venom.

Ultimately the print media is dying on its arse and will continue to do so, I like papers but I probably only buy about once a month, once the senior generations start to die off in greater numbers cannot see many of them continuing, who buys a paper bar 60 year old Doris who only buys one as its a habit she has done for years, I know my mum still bought the Mail until she went into care as she had always done so....

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 18, 2018, 15:53:13
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-44516123

So actually the mythical Brexit Dividend (which the governments own analysis already shows is bollocks) will not actually be paying for this??

Looking at what Jeremy Hunt suggests is going to pay for it, Brexit, economic growth and the taxation system. The governments own forecasts show that Brexit is going to cost rather than save cash, economic growth is dying on its arse meaning less corporate tax take - so its looking like tax rises, now the government will never tax high income earners so it looks like you and I who will be funding this, proportionally the less well off most substantially....

I won't mention the suggestion that Parliament should not be able to control the goverbnment..... https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/compare-theresa-may-comment-to-hitler-associate/

But we are getting unicorns yeah!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, June 18, 2018, 18:51:49
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-44516123

So actually the mythical Brexit Dividend (which the governments own analysis already shows is bollocks) will not actually be paying for this??

Looking at what Jeremy Hunt suggests is going to pay for it, Brexit, economic growth and the taxation system. The governments own forecasts show that Brexit is going to cost rather than save cash, economic growth is dying on its arse meaning less corporate tax take - so its looking like tax rises, now the government will never tax high income earners so it looks like you and I who will be funding this, proportionally the less well off most substantially....

I won't mention the suggestion that Parliament should not be able to control the goverbnment..... https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/compare-theresa-may-comment-to-hitler-associate/

But we are getting unicorns yeah!

Is that a fact! we're all getting Unicrons,I've always wanted one and there's pleanty of room in the field for them. The only thing is at no time did the ballot paper or any pundit/politician promise a unicorn. That's brilliant news. Or did you just make that last sentence up?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, June 19, 2018, 09:27:45
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-44516123

So actually the mythical Brexit Dividend (which the governments own analysis already shows is bollocks) will not actually be paying for this??

Looking at what Jeremy Hunt suggests is going to pay for it, Brexit, economic growth and the taxation system. The governments own forecasts show that Brexit is going to cost rather than save cash, economic growth is dying on its arse meaning less corporate tax take - so its looking like tax rises, now the government will never tax high income earners so it looks like you and I who will be funding this, proportionally the less well off most substantially....

I won't mention the suggestion that Parliament should not be able to control the goverbnment..... https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/compare-theresa-may-comment-to-hitler-associate/

But we are getting unicorns yeah!

In order for there to be more money for the NHS, then people will need to pay for it through increased taxation. The last 10 years since us taxpayers had to bail out the bankers, has been about finding a point whereby austerity cuts, don't cause a collapse of society, into a 1930's style depression.  

The NHS is now starting to look like it has reached the critical stage and so needs rescuing for political expediency.

The 30's depression caused the rise of fascism.... which is again looming in Europe, the US, and the TEF.  There's a certain irony, that England players should be subject to racsim, after a game in Stalingrad, a place where the heroic struggle of Soviet comrades did so much to defeat fascism.

(https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0d/6e/c1/b5/stalingrad-wwii-memorial.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Tuesday, June 19, 2018, 17:44:39
Poland is looking worrying, attacking the judiciary is never a good sign


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, June 19, 2018, 20:00:52
Poland is looking worrying, attacking the judiciary is never a good sign
Fuck Poland and the daily Mail, Horlock said I'd get a Unicorn. I'm now switching to being a commie thinker so I can call everyone else stupid.  Unicorn please.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Tuesday, June 19, 2018, 20:05:08
It's the old problem, please complain about the NHS, the taxes go up to try & improve it then people moan about that.
While the NHS is not good, please should realise that they pay very little towards it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, June 21, 2018, 10:43:31
Cliff edge,cliff edge,stupid people didn't know what they were voting for. Racists,xenophobes, Unicorns for everyone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, June 21, 2018, 11:06:22
I am apparently a gammon and consequently a xenophobe and racist who didn't know what I was voting for. I am not a unicorn though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, June 21, 2018, 12:24:01
I am apparently a gammon and consequently a xenophobe and racist who didn't know what I was voting for. I am not a unicorn though.

Your not a Unicorn, but I keep reading posts by very intelligent people, that Gamons who voted for Brexit were promised Unicorns for voting leave. If you did vote leave then you are both stupid and a xenophobic racist. Loook out for the cliff edge.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, June 21, 2018, 13:04:11
I didn't know I was promised unicorns. I will look out of them as well as cliff edges. Hopefully the unicorns will not go over the cliff edge, that would make me sad.........................unless obviously  they were an ethnic minority and / or foreign unicorn.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 22, 2018, 10:39:48
Cliff edge,cliff edge,stupid people didn't know what they were voting for. Racists,xenophobes, Unicorns for everyone.

I am sure that the 110,000 people in danger of losing their jobs in Wales alone if Airbus fuck off will welcome your grown up response.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, June 22, 2018, 11:36:09
I am sure that the 110,000 people in danger of losing their jobs in Wales alone if Airbus fuck off will welcome your grown up response.

But Wales voted for Brexit... it was made abundantly clear at the time, there would be a financial hit.

Bristol on the other hand voted Remain.....

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/business/airbus-warns-pull-out-bristol-1703092

A decision no doubt somewhat driven by tbe desire to keep their high end manufacturing jobs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, June 22, 2018, 11:55:47
But Wales voted for Brexit... it was made abundantly clear at the time, there would be a financial hit.

Bristol on the other hand voted Remain.....

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/business/airbus-warns-pull-out-bristol-1703092

A decision no doubt somewhat driven by tbe desire to keep their high end manufacturing jobs.

the people of Wales didn't know what they were voting for, there were 2 choices, stay with the dave cameron deal or leave. Obviously that was beyond them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Friday, June 22, 2018, 12:27:44
the people of Wales didn't know what they were voting for, there were 2 choices, stay with the dave cameron deal or leave. Obviously that was beyond them.

To be fair, on the basis that we still don't actually know what we were voting for, or against, it's hardly surprising that they didn't know at the time


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, June 23, 2018, 09:55:18
To be fair, on the basis that we still don't actually know what we were voting for, or against, it's hardly surprising that they didn't know at the time

They did know what they we're voting against, its further job losses.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 10:41:34
They did know what they we're voting against, its further job losses.

Yet all the projections seemed to indicate that Brexit would cause job losses.  It seemed to be yes there would be a financial hit, but by returning control when the likes of Honda and BMW up sticks they could be replaced by a British manufacturer. We would then be free to sell these cars in places like Indonesia.... like in the 50's.  It would take time, however.

Swindon's car manufacturers Honda and BMW are getting very twitchy.... Honda reckon if we leave the CU, then they would need to build the biggest building in the world, to still produce in Swindon.  I suppose the building would provide jobs, and perhaps a solution with what to do with the town centre.

"Honda told the Financial Times on Tuesday it still only stored enough parts to maintain production of the Honda Civic for 36 hours.

To keep its plant in Swindon open for nine days, it would need to build the largest building in the world, with the equivalent of 42 football pitches, almost three times the size of Amazon’s main US distribution centre."

Shame LP's cabbage patch is only 9 pitches


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 15:42:00
Brings a tear to your eye eh Plowman.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5891349/Kim-Jong-high-ranking-army-officer-killed-firing-squad.html

Come the revolution comrade, come the revolution.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 15:50:51
Yet all the projections seemed to indicate that Brexit would cause job losses.  It seemed to be yes there would be a financial hit, but by returning control when the likes of Honda and BMW up sticks they could be replaced by a British manufacturer. We would then be free to sell these cars in places like Indonesia.... like in the 50's.  It would take time, however.

Swindon's car manufacturers Honda and BMW are getting very twitchy.... Honda reckon if we leave the CU, then they would need to build the biggest building in the world, to still produce in Swindon.  I suppose the building would provide jobs, and perhaps a solution with what to do with the town centre.

"Honda told the Financial Times on Tuesday it still only stored enough parts to maintain production of the Honda Civic for 36 hours.

To keep its plant in Swindon open for nine days, it would need to build the largest building in the world, with the equivalent of 42 football pitches, almost three times the size of Amazon’s main US distribution centre."

Shame LP's cabbage patch is only 9 pitches

The U.K. has lost thousands and thousands of jobs due to companies relocating production to countries in the EU before the Brexit vote. Which is fact. What you are peddling has not happened. Equally there were companies notably Honda who threatened to pull out of the U.K. if we did not join the € (Deutschmark by another name) so let’s wait and see what deal is thrashed out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 16:33:25
The U.K. has lost thousands and thousands of jobs due to companies relocating production to countries in the EU before the Brexit vote. Which is fact. What you are peddling has not happened. Equally there were companies notably Honda who threatened to pull out of the U.K. if we did not join the € (Deutschmark by another name) so let’s wait and see what deal is thrashed out.

I'm not peddling anything as having happened, just pointing out reports in the Financial Times which have a local importance, and further interpreting what taking back control means.... 2 years down the line it's difficult to see what the Brexiteers mean by this.

Perhaps you could help.....  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 16:55:47
I'm fairly certain the UK has higher employment that at any time it's history - it's just that certain types of jobs move on, either through lower cost labour or automation.  It is the way of the world.

Brexit was about control, it was clear it SHOULD create some short term issues in economic terms.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 17:00:34
Brings a tear to your eye eh Plowman.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5891349/Kim-Jong-high-ranking-army-officer-killed-firing-squad.html

Come the revolution comrade, come the revolution.
I have even googled this but still don't get the constant Plowman reference?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 17:01:47
I have even googled this but still don't get the constant Plowman reference?

I think he thinks that Reg is Paul Plowman.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 17:07:23
I think he thinks that Reg is Paul Plowman.

Quite a compliment...

Although more Piers Plowman....

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515ArpSTurL._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

I've a copy on my shelf, and always felt a certain affinity with the toiling ploughman depicted on the Luttrell Psalter


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 17:10:04
I think he thinks that Reg is Paul Plowman.
As he is a “hidden user” with stats on fucking everything why not?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 17:13:04
I'm fairly certain the UK has higher employment that at any time it's history - it's just that certain types of jobs move on, either through lower cost labour or automation.  It is the way of the world.

Brexit was about control, it was clear it SHOULD create some short term issues in economic terms.
Bollocks. Under the EU it’s so much easier for these multinational companies to up sticks to the cheap east European countries that were allowed in. We in this country didn’t get a bite on it unlike other countries and even those who voted against like the Irish were coerced into voting again under duress to get the ‘right’ result. So much for democracy under the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 18:22:01
Bollocks. Under the EU it’s so much easier for these multinational companies to up sticks to the cheap east European countries that were allowed in. We in this country didn’t get a bite on it unlike other countries and even those who voted against like the Irish were coerced into voting again under duress to get the ‘right’ result. So much for democracy under the EU.

Not bollocks - the UK employment number is higher.

What isn't in dispute is that some jobs that used to be done in the UK will have gone to other lower cost nations.  That in fact is the point of the EU.  You can move work around, and people if necessary.  Over time, the hope is that the lower cost nations build-up, through greater competition for jobs in those markets, rising wages etc.

What cannot be in dispute is that removing yourself from a free trade block without reciprical deals in place with other Nations on exit SHOULD cause an economic impact, not a positive one.  The argument for Brexit wasn't that this would be avoided, but that it could be overcome in time by allowing the Nation to make decisions that it couldn't do while in the EU.  One of those decisions could be to reduce the minimum wage or remove it entirely.  It could be to reduce workers rights that were protected around maximum hours etc.  That way you can become more competitive for some of those jobs seeking lower wages (all the way up the chain, not just the bottom).  It is also possible to negotiate your own trade deals, over time, and to do things like lower Corporate Tax rates to entice businesses, or VAT to make items less expensive and boost consumption, and so on.  That doesn't stop the fact that it WILL be more costly for a while to trade with Europe, maybe for a long time.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 18:25:46
I think he thinks that Reg is Paul Plowman.
Ah makes sense, take so we are guessing people's identity based on the tone and factual quality of their posting and Hoey has reached a conclusion about Reg.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 18:27:32
Ah makes sense, take so we are guessing people's identity based on the tone and factual quality of their posting and Hoey has reached a conclusion about Reg.
Yes.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 18:28:19
Not bollocks - the UK employment number is higher.

What isn't in dispute is that some jobs that used to be done in the UK will have gone to other lower cost nations. 


At least they will be going to India post 2019 (as the Indian government have made clear that barriers will have to come down even more of we want the fabled trade deal), we can then still pretend we have an empire.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 18:33:39
Quite a compliment...


Indeed, if people had an even basic appreciation and understanding of history we probably would be in this position. The real eye opener of Brexit is how the education system seems to have failed in terms of basic history and economics....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 18:39:12
Indeed, if people had an even basic appreciation and understanding of history we probably would be in this position. The real eye opener of Brexit is how the education system seems to have failed in terms of basic history and economics....
You're not playing the intellectual superior card are you?


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 18:44:06
Indeed, if people had an even basic appreciation and understanding of history we probably would be in this position. The real eye opener of Brexit is how the education system seems to have failed in terms of basic history and economics....
Maybe because under education, education, education, basic history was disregarded and whitewashed over.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 18:48:10
You're not playing the intellectual superior card are you?
Not remotely.... It's just been scary how many people on either side have fuck all idea about basic history or how an economy actually works.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 18:48:38
Maybe because under education, education, education, basic history was disregarded and whitewashed over.
Never had you down as attending school post 1997.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 18:56:14
Never had you down as attending school post 1997.

I did and he's right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 18:59:27
As an aside, they should really focus on improving the NMW; £7.83 is a complete and utter disgrace


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 19:00:28
I would suggest that getting out of the EU would make it more likely to go the other way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 19:07:32
Not remotely.... It's just been scary how many people on either side have fuck all idea about basic history or how an economy actually works.
Phew. Agree with you that both sides as bad as each other. Everyone has an agenda. Brexit is not all about the economy for some or even if the worst happens it's a price worth paying.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 19:24:03
The single biggest problem, from an education side of things, was the failure to truly provide information on what joining the "Club" really meant.  The original Rome Treaty is worth reading, it is very clear where the path is headed for anyone wishing to join.  Maybe there has been some expansion, but it's always a logical path.  It's a path I think the UK should not have taken, not when it did anyway, as it was for the wrong reasons.  Eyes were not wide open, which means it became easy to pick fights and blame the EU in recent years, for simply delivering what is said on the tin.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 20:34:50
As he is a “hidden user” with stats on fucking everything why not?
Because several people who've met both have repeatedly told you he isn't, maybe?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 21:00:12
Because several people who've met both have repeatedly told you he isn't, maybe?
Ah, who gives a shit anyway, it’s all good fun.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 28, 2018, 08:50:02
Ah, who gives a shit anyway, it’s all good fun.

You apparently as you repeatedly bring it up?  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 28, 2018, 10:03:18
Sadly so so predicable....

https://www.sunderlandecho.com/news...r-brexit-plans-according-to-reports-1-9225210

Looks like even the secret little promises are falling apart.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, June 28, 2018, 21:25:42
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5897401/BAE-Systems-lands-20BN-deal-build-Australian-warships-Brexit-boost.html

 :smugfu:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, June 29, 2018, 08:41:59
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5897401/BAE-Systems-lands-20BN-deal-build-Australian-warships-Brexit-boost.html

 :smugfu:

They're being built in Australia.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, June 29, 2018, 09:57:15
They're being built in Australia.

 :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 29, 2018, 10:08:52
Aussie jobs for Aussie workers, massive profits for non-dom shareholders. It's the very spirit of what Brexit is all about!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Friday, June 29, 2018, 10:11:53
Aussie jobs for Aussie workers, massive profits for non-dom shareholders. It's the very spirit of what Brexit is all about!

:)

Yeah, but it stops them coming over here and stealing our jobs


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, June 29, 2018, 10:16:54
Aussie jobs for Aussie workers, massive profits for non-dom shareholders. It's the very spirit of what Brexit is all about!

The Aussies will need skilled shipbuiders though, so the unemployed shipbuilders of Tyne and Wear can apply to emigrate....one snag being you have to be under 45.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, June 29, 2018, 11:05:15
Did this deal happen because of Brexit, or despite it. It's really not a valid pro-brexit argument if it's the former, which I suspect it is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, June 29, 2018, 11:12:38
Did this deal happen because of Brexit, or despite it. It's really not a valid pro-brexit argument if it's the former, which I suspect it is.

It's simply a business deal.... albeit in the defence sector where some politics will come into it.  The likes of the Mail and their fellow Brexiteers, would have the gullible believe that although eligible to tender for the contract Italian and Spanish companies lost out because they're in the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, June 29, 2018, 11:37:01
But then do you think the CEOs of Airbus and BMW weren't exerting political influence on behalf of macron and Merkel. Either side will do anything to gain advantage in negotiations. It's what happens and I expect it to get a lot juicier yet. Project fear will be ramped up substantially as will the gold paved roads we will have if we leave.
Both labour and Tories are divided on the EU as are the general electorate. Despite may winning last week's vote I still expect the two houses to vote out anything other than the softest brexit and then all the bickering can start all over again.
The one thing that is blatantly clear is that the country was not ready for the referendum. Both sides were unworthy of our trust. It should have been deferred until some indisputable facts were presented so at least we had some solid foundations before the bollox was added.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 29, 2018, 11:53:34
The one thing that is blatantly clear is that the country was not ready for the referendum. Both sides were unworthy of our trust. It should have been deferred until some indisputable facts were presented so at least we had some solid foundations before the bollox was added.
This is the single best comment I've seen on the whole debacle.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, June 29, 2018, 11:58:21
This is the single best comment I've seen on the whole debacle.

It is an excellent point, however the vote happened, and the triggering of Article 50 happened quickly after that. There was probably no constitutional reason why a period of reflective debate couldn't have taken place, before triggering Art 50, as to just what was voted for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, June 29, 2018, 12:17:20
It is an excellent point, however the vote happened, and the triggering of Article 50 happened quickly after that. There was probably no constitutional reason why a period of reflective debate couldn't have taken place, before triggering Art 50, as to just what was voted for.
That was a total may fuck up. I think the idea was to trigger article 50 and then confidently negotiate after a barnstorming election win. She could be a latter day Boudicca. We know how that went.
I think even those like me who voted out are stunned at two things. First of all the total ineptitude of our negotiating stance. It may all come good but at the moment it's a shambles. A fuck up upon a fuck up. Secondly, the number of people who would love to see brexit fail to be proved right. I don't have a problem with remainers fighting their corner as they should do so but to want brexit to fail I can't understand. Surely it's in all our interests to make it work.if it doesn't then fair enough.
I think a period of reflection would probably have just seen the same shit over a longer period.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 29, 2018, 12:29:44
That was a total may fuck up. I think the idea was to trigger article 50 and then confidently negotiate after a barnstorming election win. She could be a latter day Boudicca. We know how that went.
I think even those like me who voted out are stunned at two things. First of all the total ineptitude of our negotiating stance. It may all come good but at the moment it's a shambles. A fuck up upon a fuck up. Secondly, the number of people who would love to see brexit fail to be proved right. I don't have a problem with remainers fighting their corner as they should do so but to want brexit to fail I can't understand. Surely it's in all our interests to make it work.if it doesn't then fair enough.
I think a period of reflection would probably have just seen the same shit over a longer period.
Again, I agree with all of this. Mods, can I just set up some kind of auto-echo of "+1" on all Chalkie's posts from now on? :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 29, 2018, 12:33:46
This is the single best comment I've seen on the whole debacle.

Nearly, Danny Dyer's on the TV last night probably trumps it....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 29, 2018, 12:36:42
The Aussies will need skilled shipbuiders though, so the unemployed shipbuilders of Tyne and Wear can apply to emigrate....one snag being you have to be under 45.

I have one acquaintance who seems to genuinely believe that with the removal of EU labour from the UK these unemployed shipbuilders and steel workers have the opportunity to directly address the labour shortages that are emerging in the NHS.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 29, 2018, 12:47:42
Nearly, Danny Dyer's on the TV last night probably trumps it....
The fact that Danny Dyer is being lauded as a remain figurehead for calling Cameron a twat says all you need to know about the level of this "debate"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 29, 2018, 12:56:09
The fact that Danny Dyer is being lauded as a remain figurehead for calling Cameron a twat says all you need to know about the level of this "debate"

I don't think he is any sort of remain figurehead, I imagine you won't find many on any side particularly happy for his creating of this shit storm and turning his party into UKIP mk2. The fact that Corbyn just sat their nodding whilst facilitating the bollocks that May is delivering (in fact he would have made things even better as he was for activating A50 on 24th June 2016) shows what an bullshitting ideologically driven twat he is also.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Friday, June 29, 2018, 16:21:34
Again, I agree with all of this. Mods, can I just set up some kind of auto-echo of "+1" on all Chalkie's posts from now on? :)

Chalkies is also a good judge of a poster.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, June 29, 2018, 16:38:22
Chalkies is also a good judge of a poster.
Using me as a character reference would probably not end well.  I hope you don't lie donkey.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Friday, June 29, 2018, 16:42:49
:thumb:
Using me as a character reference would probably not end well.  I hope you don't lie donkey.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 29, 2018, 16:47:35
Chalkies is also a good judge of a poster.

Like this?

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3889/15216805665_138638982d_b.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Monday, July 9, 2018, 00:45:33
So David Davis has resigned. We're a year into negotiating brexit, and we still haven't decided what we're negotiating for. The entire world must be pissing themselves at us. Oh well.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 9, 2018, 06:23:52
Two years Ben, the referendum was 2016. Let's not sell our utter incompetence short.

Worryingly though, the knifes will be out for May. We've fuckertards like Rees-Mogg and Boris waiting in the wings...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, July 9, 2018, 07:38:59
I reckon the coup is happening now in the hope that they can reverse the policy of not sending dignitaries to the World Cup as soon as possible. We'll have PM Rees-Mogg sat next to Putin by the final...

Now there's a horrible thought.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 9, 2018, 08:30:10
So Davis resigns as the proposed Brexit deal gives way too much of the sovereign power that he and his cohorts have spent the last 3 years (and Farge etc much longer than that) telling us we didn't have anyway...

The Tories spend 3 years pissing about to get a negotiating approach they can agree on and it lasts less than a weekend....

Leading Brexiteers have proven themselves to be like our dog when I was a kid, spend years chasing next doors cat but when finally they have it cornered they sit down and start licking their bollocks as they never had a plan for such an eventuality are too scared or unable to comprehend what to actually do anything about it.

I hope Grayling gets it, with his track record for fucking things up we will be in the Euro by Christmas.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 9, 2018, 08:53:21
 This is going to be a fun week... our lads in Moscow on Wednesday, with a Wiltshirewomen being killed by novichok, the government in meltdown and Trump pitching up on Thursday.

As for Davis, a thorough incompetent.  It's taken the Tories 2 years and they still have no idea what Brexit means, let alone any chance of negotiating with the EU.
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, July 9, 2018, 09:36:17
And the charlatans-in-chief, Gove and Johnson, proving themselves as spineless and unprincipled as ever. This government makes Major's look decisive and competent by comparison. It would be funny if they weren't presiding over (or rather failing to) what could be a defining point in the country's history. Fucking shambles.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, July 9, 2018, 10:54:44
So David Davis has resigned. We're a year into negotiating brexit, and we still haven't decided what we're negotiating for. The entire world must be pissing themselves at us. Oh well.


They were Pissing themselves when we joined the eu and started paying billions to other countries, so they could tell us how to run our own.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 9, 2018, 11:49:44
They were Pissing themselves when we joined the eu and started paying billions to other countries, so they could tell us how to run our own.

There will still be payments into the EU coffers after Brexit.... atm a kind of Norway deal looks likely, each Norwegian pays roughly 2/3 of what a UK taxpayer does, and in return gets access to single market, and is semi detached on Schengen.

Of course the Norwegian economy is much smaller than UK so being out of the Custon's Union causes it problems on a scale it can manage.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, July 9, 2018, 13:22:19
I don't remember any of these soft brexit options on the ballot paper, it was Dave's rubbish deal or out. Now the remainiacs, working for their masters, want a brexit in name only. May always wanted to stay and campaigned as such. She's been given the PM's job to stop the UK leaving and is doing everything she can to see that happen. At least that evil gloabalist george soros can see his money is being well spent.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 9, 2018, 13:47:16
I don't remember any of these soft brexit options on the ballot paper, it was Dave's rubbish deal or out. Now the remainiacs, working for their masters, want a brexit in name only. May always wanted to stay and campaigned as such. She's been given the PM's job to stop the UK leaving and is doing everything she can to see that happen. At least that evil gloabalist george soros can see his money is being well spent.

We are leaving the EU.... the only thing to be decided on what terms.  At the time there was much debate about various possible options. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, July 9, 2018, 14:02:05
Boris has gone. What an absolute charlatan.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, July 9, 2018, 14:02:51
We are leaving the EU.... the only thing to be decided on what terms.  At the time there was much debate about various possible options.  
Including plenty of Leave campaigners telling us we could have a Norway option, which is very much a "soft Brexit" option along the lines of what May is proposing. So Ken might not remember it being on the ballot paper, but it was actively pushed as an option during the campaign


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, July 9, 2018, 14:04:18
Boris has gone. What an absolute charlatan.
Best news I've heard all day. Except for the fact it means he'll now start his campaign to be PM


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 9, 2018, 14:11:00
Best news I've heard all day. Except for the fact it means he'll now start his campaign to be PM

Yeah, or Rees-Mogg, or even David "thick as" Davis. Jesus. What a fucking mess.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, July 9, 2018, 14:16:41
Yeah, or Rees-Mogg, or even David "thick as" Davis. Jesus. What a fucking mess.
Davis is too lazy to stand for PM, too much like hard work. But yeah, it's not an inspiring field is it? Andrea fucking Leadsome nearly won last time, FFS


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 9, 2018, 14:20:00
Davis is too lazy to stand for PM, too much like hard work. But yeah, it's not an inspiring field is it? Andrea fucking Leadsome nearly won last time, FFS

Theresa May was the best option. Shiiiiit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Monday, July 9, 2018, 14:34:44
Have there been any estimates as to how much this brexit 'process' has cost thus far? All these meetings, trips etc must be costing a fortune


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Monday, July 9, 2018, 14:36:45
Just imagine if there was a credible opposition party right now


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, July 9, 2018, 14:43:12
Have there been any estimates as to how much this brexit 'process' has cost thus far? All these meetings, trips etc must be costing a fortune
Over £500b since joining and rising....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 9, 2018, 14:49:49
Pictures from Downing Street

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DU6EHWrU8AADczV.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 9, 2018, 14:50:22
Over £500b since joining and rising....

And how much of that have we had back just out of interest?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, July 9, 2018, 15:04:54
And how much of that have we had back just out of interest?

A fair bit I grant you that, maybe a third give or take. So?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 9, 2018, 15:15:37
Well a) the question related to what the Brexit process had cost us, so your post didn't actually answer the question and b) as we have get a decent proportion of what we have paid to the EU back both as rebate but also as funded projects the figures are essentially just pointless posturing without any context to them? So as with much from the leave side it is not exactly heavy on fact.

But never fear, my five year old will still be paying for this now comparatively pointless charade (as we are essentially becoming a rule taker and giving up our place to influence these rules) until she is at least 51 so that's taught her....  ::)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, July 9, 2018, 15:22:49
Well a) the question related to what the Brexit process had cost us, so your post didn't actually answer the question and b) as we have get a decent proportion of what we have paid to the EU back both as rebate but also as funded projects the figures are essentially just pointless posturing without any context to them? So as with much from the leave side it is not exactly heavy on fact.

But never fear, my five year old will still be paying for this now comparatively pointless charade (as we are essentially becoming a rule taker and giving up our place to influence these rules) until she is at least 51 so that's taught her....  ::)

My point is any money handed over to the EU is a waste. I do not and never have supported the EU. Trade, fair enough all for it. Co operation, yes I think we can co operate quite easily. Political union and a superstate I cannot support.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 9, 2018, 15:32:49
My point is any money handed over to the EU is a waste. I do not and never have supported the EU. Trade, fair enough all for it. Co operation, yes I think we can co operate quite easily. Political union and a superstate I cannot support.

Considering just how many jobs it sustains in the UK in terms of agriculture, industry (Airbus etc) and the like, I am not sure it can be considered a waste, - I have been involved in projects that have spent 10's of millions on various urban and rural regeneration schemes over the years all of which has been invested in the local economies where the schemes have occurred.

As for political union etc, never seen any evidence that that was ever likely to happen, it might be the ideological objective of certain technocrats but people forget (or choose to ignore) that for anything to pass it needs the agreement of all 27 member states (hence why all the fuss about waves of Turks coming in from just another component of Project Fear), and as those pesky Walloons proved with the US trade deal it only takes one state to veto and it kills everything, now if we had stayed in we could have veto'ed any closer unity which might affect us, however as our government seem to be, at best, setting us up to be a dependent rule taking state it could happen and we have no control.

Our leaders can posture all they like but there is not the majority to get a 'no deal' through parliament - and may be even less if the Tories continue today's attempts to shatter the party which could lead to an election with a Tory hard right rump that even the DUP nutters don't have enough seats to prop up.

It would all be hilariously funny if it wasn't my and my kids future that was being gambled with, by leaders who appear barely capable of independent thought.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, July 9, 2018, 15:42:08
I don't remember any of these soft brexit options on the ballot paper, it was Dave's rubbish deal or out. Now the remainiacs, working for their masters, want a brexit in name only. May always wanted to stay and campaigned as such. She's been given the PM's job to stop the UK leaving and is doing everything she can to see that happen. At least that evil gloabalist george soros can see his money is being well spent.

You're right...the terms of Brexit were not on the ballot paper.  That's why the country is in the mess that it's in now.

The Customs Union & Single Market were not mentioned on the ballot paper - and different people said different things before the vote about what the implications would be for each.  'Soft Brexit', 'Hard Brexit'...not on the ballot paper.  It was a straight in/out choice.  The terms of the trade relationship (which is the bit we're all talking about here) were assumed. Discussed verbally, but never formalised.

Our grandchildren will learn about this period in history one day and will marvel at the crass incompetence of those involved.  An exercise in how not to do it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, July 9, 2018, 16:01:00
You're right...the terms of Brexit were not on the ballot paper.  That's why the country is in the mess that it's in now.

The Customs Union & Single Market were not mentioned on the ballot paper - and different people said different things before the vote about what the implications would be for each.  'Soft Brexit', 'Hard Brexit'...not on the ballot paper.  It was a straight in/out choice.  The terms of the trade relationship (which is the bit we're all talking about here) were assumed. Discussed verbally, but never formalised.

Our grandchildren will learn about this period in history one day and will marvel at the crass incompetence of those involved.  An exercise in how not to do it.



‘The terms of Brexit were not on the ballot paper.’ Neither were the terms going forward to remain. In other words we know what is on offer from the EU now, five years time? Ten years?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, July 9, 2018, 16:24:23
Surely that supports the argument that you cannot assume nature of the future relationship with EU from the ballot alone?  This is precisely what the Hard Brexit wing of the Tory party (& one or two others from other parties) are doing.  Leaving is one thing.  It's happening.  The terms of the future relationship are still up for discussion though.  Sadly, you cannot unlink these two things.  But no-one thought of that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, July 9, 2018, 16:26:45
Further to that...the Leave side's strategy, clearly, was to get out first - and then work out the details from there.  They planned it this way all along, thinking they would jump the first hurdle and then muddle through somehow when they came up against the rest.  That decision is coming back to haunt them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 9, 2018, 16:29:06
what if the EU is stronger in 5 or 10 years....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, July 9, 2018, 16:31:07
So, is there time for a General Election? The Tories could be happy for Corbyn to win and leave him to ultimately fuck up Brexit.

There are really only 2 options. Leave with nothing agreed or not leave at all. Fudges are the worst outcomes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 9, 2018, 16:35:44

There are really only 2 options. Leave with nothing agreed or not leave at all. Fudges are the worst outcomes.

That's highly unlikely to pass parliament so not really an option, sadly the EU worked that out months ago, unlike our leaders....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 9, 2018, 16:36:44
Just to put the fear of god into you all..... Taken from the BBC

'Michael Gove remains favourite to succeed Boris Johnson as foreign secretary but bookmaker Ladbrokes says a rush of bets on Jeremy Hunt has seen odds on his appointment shorten considerably.'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, July 9, 2018, 16:42:17
I think it is fair to say that the EU has provided more economic benefit than cost, financially.

The question is whether economic alone is enough.

For me, the vote was a simple one, In or Out.  Personally, the country should just quit, take the financial pain and work out the new world after exiting.

Horlock - there is and always has been a clear path for what is now the EU and it does look like a loose Super State - you cannot achieve the original stated goals without harmonisation of policy.  Personally, I'm all for it, countries are useless things, with random lines drawn across the land on maps creating tension and fighting.

I do know that I am odd, and for that reason we should just get out and be done with it.

I m fairly certain that if a vote were held on JOINING the EU, it would probably be less than 50% in favour.  Too many of the those that wanted to remain were simply for Economic reasons, which is fine, but means we'd never shake the constant whining about the EU approach to life, telling us what shape Banana's had to be, and the Mail would keep on peddling sufficient myths to make it so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, July 9, 2018, 16:47:14
I'm all for a Tory implosion as well, but the Labour Party are only surviving because they are not in power.  Their own Leader is a natural Brexiteer, with a membership probably in favour of Brexit but MP's largely in favour.  The Unions only like the EU because of the Social Policies that were pushed.  The world is being shifted arse about face right now, left is right, right is left, the centre vacated and far too much fear.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, July 9, 2018, 16:55:55
If there is a positive to come from all of this, it must be that finally people are waking up to the fact that there is a trade off.  Leaving the EU and all of the associated structures may well be a principled (to some) & ideologically pure decision.  But there will also be a massive price to pay economically.  But that message was artfully obscured by claims of a 'Brexit Dividend' and £350m/week to the NHS.

There are many of us on the Remain side of the argument that recognise problems with the EU, but simply feel that the cost of leaving is too high.  I wish my sentiments were more noble than that, but they're not.  It's a pragmatic (rather than a dogmatic) position.  When proponents of a 'no deal' Brexit suggest that as a serious option, I question whether they have really thought things through.  Sovereignty will not put food on the table.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, July 9, 2018, 17:09:59
what if the EU is stronger in 5 or 10 years....

On past form 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, July 9, 2018, 17:44:51
As far as I am concerned the EU is a protectionist anti free trade organisation run by the Germans for the Germans with the French in tow like the playground bully’s best mate. As far as the U.K. is concerned all we are is a cash cow to them, a little foggy island that keeps on paying up all our dues without quibble and following all EU diktats that even the Nazis and Stalin would have been impressed by while the rest of Europe pays lip service to them.

It is breathtakingly corrupt with millions and millions of €’s disappearing and as such the accountants have not and will not sign off the EU accounts and they have not been for decades.

Merkel is struggling to hang on after miscalculating euro wide sentiments regarding migrants from the Middle East and Africa. Letting in god knows who with no real mechanism to sort the ones harmful to the ‘European Project’ or friendly. Though they will rely heavily on the U.K. for our security nouse to help them out. Who the fuck is this woman to welcome 1 million or more ‘migrants’ in unchecked because Germany needs them for their back door economic powergrab and then dictate to everyone how many they have to take in when they’ve been over run.

Do not misunderstand me, there are many good things that have come out of the ‘European Project’ as it is oft referred to. However, like all dictatorships or ‘empires’ if you wish they eventually become hung by their own pertard. Birds home to roost springs to mind.

Where this clusterfuck is falling down and it kind of looks like it is, is this. A) The vote to decide was long overdue. Not because it had been decades since the last one or that the public were essentially lied to to get us in. No, from my viewpoint it was because we the people never had the opportunity or say into the various treaties foisted upon us since our full membership. B) When Cameron (rightly or wrongly) tried to stamp out the threat from Ukip his attempt to tell Merkel el al that their path to glory was not one that the U.K. would likely walk blindfolded and he needed help to sell it, in other words Merkel throw me a few bones to take back. The arrogance of the EU was as expected and we are now where Cameron hopefully told them we would be if they didn’t help him. C) Not fucking working on a plan if we the people said fuck you we’re off, again breath taking arrogance, this time from Cameron and all the others who thought they had it in the bag.

Kind of reminds me of 1969, a warm cosy glow and a smug feeling of I told you so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 9, 2018, 17:46:37
Quote from: Legends-Lounge
Quote
what if the EU is stronger in 5 or 10 years....
On past form 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
well yes, fair point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, July 9, 2018, 18:39:18
On past form 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
well yes, fair point.

We should stay and reform the epoo from the inside, then increase the money we give them, so they can give us some back with their blue swasticka on it. Thus save all those fishing jobs in other countries.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 9, 2018, 20:52:48
Jeremy Hunt, foreign secretary.

good lord.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, July 9, 2018, 20:53:07
As far as I am concerned the EU is a protectionist anti free trade organisation run by the Germans for the Germans with the French in tow like the playground bully’s best mate. As far as the U.K. is concerned all we are is a cash cow to them, a little foggy island that keeps on paying up all our dues without quibble and following all EU diktats that even the Nazis and Stalin would have been impressed by while the rest of Europe pays lip service to them.

It is breathtakingly corrupt with millions and millions of €’s disappearing and as such the accountants have not and will not sign off the EU accounts and they have not been for decades.

Merkel is struggling to hang on after miscalculating euro wide sentiments regarding migrants from the Middle East and Africa. Letting in god knows who with no real mechanism to sort the ones harmful to the ‘European Project’ or friendly. Though they will rely heavily on the U.K. for our security nouse to help them out. Who the fuck is this woman to welcome 1 million or more ‘migrants’ in unchecked because Germany needs them for their back door economic powergrab and then dictate to everyone how many they have to take in when they’ve been over run.

Do not misunderstand me, there are many good things that have come out of the ‘European Project’ as it is oft referred to. However, like all dictatorships or ‘empires’ if you wish they eventually become hung by their own pertard. Birds home to roost springs to mind.

Where this clusterfuck is falling down and it kind of looks like it is, is this. A) The vote to decide was long overdue. Not because it had been decades since the last one or that the public were essentially lied to to get us in. No, from my viewpoint it was because we the people never had the opportunity or say into the various treaties foisted upon us since our full membership. B) When Cameron (rightly or wrongly) tried to stamp out the threat from Ukip his attempt to tell Merkel el al that their path to glory was not one that the U.K. would likely walk blindfolded and he needed help to sell it, in other words Merkel throw me a few bones to take back. The arrogance of the EU was as expected and we are now where Cameron hopefully told them we would be if they didn’t help him. C) Not fucking working on a plan if we the people said fuck you we’re off, again breath taking arrogance, this time from Cameron and all the others who thought they had it in the bag.

Kind of reminds me of 1969, a warm cosy glow and a smug feeling of I told you so.


I appreciate your points, sort of, even if I disagree with most in terms of impact of immigration.  However, why do you have more trust in the UK parliament than the EU version?  The state we were in that created the original In vote suggests "we", whoever "we" is, are just as likely to fuck it up.  We are, by reports over the past 10 years or so, just as likely to have people corrupted in Power.  Blair seemed like a great hope, then sold all of Europe on a phoney war - who is duped most by the "project"? The Tories love the free trade stuff, but will roll back the protections for the working class as soon as possible and screw the country over just as badly for a penny or two.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, July 9, 2018, 20:54:15
Jeremy Hunt, foreign secretary.

good lord.

But at least it isn't some Johnny Foreigner making the decisions, we have at least been able to vote some competent people to run the country for itself into power...............................


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 9, 2018, 21:06:49
I do like a laugh Rob, but you've gone too far with that one :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, July 9, 2018, 22:53:43
So, is there time for a General Election? The Tories could be happy for Corbyn to win and leave him to ultimately fuck up Brexit.
If they have any wits about them, they would realise that that is probably their only way out of the clusterfuck they have created - hand the whole shitstorm over to Corbyn and let him carry the can for the mess they have created


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, July 9, 2018, 22:54:20
Jeremy Hunt, foreign secretary.

good lord.
Well, it's good news for the NHS anyway


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, July 9, 2018, 23:05:48
And our own Justin "Wonga" Tomlinson has been appointed a jr minister in the DWP in the reshuffle.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Tuesday, July 10, 2018, 04:51:09
Britain's membership of the EU makes my life better on a day to day basis, and that is why I'm on the side of staying in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Tuesday, July 10, 2018, 05:54:00
Not to say that the EU as organisation is a massive piece of shit. I'd be well up for leaving if there was a proper plan in place.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 10, 2018, 08:22:17
Horlock - there is and always has been a clear path for what is now the EU and it does look like a loose Super State - you cannot achieve the original stated goals without harmonisation of policy.  Personally, I'm all for it, countries are useless things, with random lines drawn across the land on maps creating tension and fighting.

But is that not just perpetuating the myth that what the architects of the EU and the incumbent technocrats aspire to can be achieved without the need to go through the EU democratic processes which are actually made up of either MEP's elected by the EU electorate, of the heads of state who are equally elected by the electorate of their home states. On that basis there are a number of countries, including the EU until next March at least, that elected members in either group would never pass any such legislation and thus by extension whatever the aspirations of the federalists it ain't going to happen.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, July 10, 2018, 08:23:53
And our own Justin "Wonga" Tomlinson has been appointed a jr minister in the DWP in the reshuffle.

well, at least he'll be able to plug any short term pension funding issues.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 10, 2018, 08:31:49
We should stay and reform the epoo from the inside, then increase the money we give them, so they can give us some back with their blue swasticka on it. Thus save all those fishing jobs in other countries.

You do realise that on the whole we have sold our fishing quotas (Spain, NL & Iceland have bought up 90% of Wales’ entire fishing quota & over half England’s.) thus the loss of fishing jobs has almost entirely been down to the greed of those who held quota's (British people) cashing in....

Yesterday was a quite amazing day in politics, I have been racking my brains and I cannot think of another time in history when a PM had a government actually break down because they weren't seen to be actively fucking the country enough...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, July 10, 2018, 08:42:56
But is that not just perpetuating the myth that what the architects of the EU and the incumbent technocrats aspire to can be achieved without the need to go through the EU democratic processes which are actually made up of either MEP's elected by the EU electorate, of the heads of state who are equally elected by the electorate of their home states. On that basis there are a number of countries, including the EU until next March at least, that elected members in either group would never pass any such legislation and thus by extension whatever the aspirations of the federalists it ain't going to happen.


and yet here we are today - a once trading block.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 10, 2018, 09:09:46
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36868130_2159334660763146_2511096799050072064_n.png?_nc_cat=0&oh=ada6a79165d8475f8410797f744586c2&oe=5BDC70A8)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, July 10, 2018, 09:31:00
The problem, for me, is that the EU will eventually go tits up anyway. The PIGS countries are not going to stand by and do nothing for ever - well, Ireland might.

May be best to get ahead of the game now, sort out some trade agreements elsewhere and watch from the sidelines as the whole shebang implode.

Millions of young people in Southern Europe have been sacrificed to EU austerity measures. Sooner or later they will fight back.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, July 10, 2018, 09:54:22
I think a bigger risk for the EU will be the V4. When they are forced to take in immigrants it will be fun. They have already said no but the EU can enforce it. If they do, good luck If they don't then its not fair on other countries. I would not want to be one of those immigrants unless I was a good old Christian or white.
Germany would be the obvious solution as they took in over 1m immigrants who have the rights to now move anywhere in the EU - without consulting the other EU countries. That appears to have caused some ructions on Germany and Merkel is no longer as popular as was with Macron trying to take up the EU leader role.
There's definitely an increasing momentum by the peasants to revolt at the EU. It hasn't gathered enough pace yet but it may well do.
Don't forget there isn't a problem with the EU that can't be solved by more EU in the minds of our good mate Junker etc. It certainly is not an institution that appears to practice pragmatism.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 10, 2018, 12:18:22
And our own Justin "Wonga" Tomlinson has been appointed a jr minister in the DWP in the reshuffle.
But a backbencher has been promoted to Attorney General, bypassing our other MP, Robert Buckland, who is the current Solicitor General. I'm assuming that's a bit of a snub for Bobby B, but tbh I don't know a whole lot about the AG promotion ladder (although AG is a bigger job than SG isn't it?)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Tuesday, July 10, 2018, 16:13:23
Indeed...the SG is the AG's deputy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 11, 2018, 11:02:56
So this Project Fear stuff....

In 2016 the government tell us: "No deal is better than a bad deal"

In 2018 the government, by their actions, tell us: "Stock up on tinned goods like you're prepping for the apocalypse"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, July 11, 2018, 11:42:44

Quote
As far as I am concerned the EU is a protectionist anti free trade organisation run by the Germans for the Germans

So LL, Trump is now saying that the Germans are a captive of Russia.... so does that mean Putin runs the EU? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 11, 2018, 12:10:14
So LL, Trump is now saying that the Germans are a captive of Russia.... so does that mean Putin runs the EU? 

I think you will find its the UK actually....

BTW on that matter.... https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1016631522080718848


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 11, 2018, 12:49:11
So LL, Trump is now saying that the Germans are a captive of Russia
Quite jaw-dropping hypocrisy, even for him. Pots and kettles and all that


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, July 11, 2018, 12:54:21
He is almost like a parody of himself at times.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 13, 2018, 13:12:01
He is almost like a parody of himself at times.
And again today, backtracking on his Sun interview by describing it as "fake news" - they've released the audio recording of exactly what you said, you massive lying cockwomble.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Private Fraser on Friday, July 13, 2018, 13:22:39
The Chequers press conference (on now) is full of jaw-dropping moments.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Friday, July 13, 2018, 13:41:22
It's a shame more people don't turn up to protest against our own shit show government instead of worrying more about Trump


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, July 13, 2018, 13:44:34
protests aren't mutually exclusive


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Friday, July 13, 2018, 13:51:18
I know. Just saying it's typical of people to worry more about what Trump says than the shit storm, we are currently in ourselves


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 13, 2018, 14:13:58
It's a shame more people don't turn up to protest against our own shit show government instead of worrying more about Trump

There were considerably more people protesting about the government (and Corbyn) in London the other week than there are now about Trump!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Friday, July 13, 2018, 14:16:07
Good. I hope that's true,not quite sure why there needs to be a protest about Corbyn though


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, July 13, 2018, 14:17:06
Cos he twists and turns like a twisty turny thing


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 13, 2018, 14:36:47
Good. I hope that's true,not quite sure why there needs to be a protest about Corbyn though

Anti Brexit demo.... Jeremy favours Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 13, 2018, 15:09:53
It's a shame more people don't turn up to protest against our own shit show government instead of worrying more about Trump
Trump is several grades more worrying than our govt/opposition.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Friday, July 13, 2018, 15:13:44
Trump is several grades more worrying than our govt/opposition.
Why? Our own government have put more of our own people on the streets and led to more and more food banks being needed. More people committing suicide these days due to a pathetic PIP system that is not fit for purpose. That's what i care about to be honest,that's more important isn't it? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 13, 2018, 15:17:56
Why? Our own government have put more of our own people on the streets and led to more and more food banks being needed. More people committing suicide these days due to a pathetic PIP system that is not fit for purpose. That's what i care about to be honest,that's more important isn't it? 
Our government are just the standard mix of incompetents and nasty bastards. Trump represents the tip of a wave of anti-democratic far-right populism sweeping the West that represents a genuine danger to Western democracy. That's a bigger threat IMO. And if you don't think that's relevant to us, look at the links between Trump's backers, the Russians, our own far right groups, and the likes of Johnson and Farage. They're all promoting/pushing each other.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 11:30:52
 The Brexit situation has got even more interesting in the last 10 days or so.

 May got her Chequers fudge, but that was soon kicked into touch by the EU.... I can only assume, it was a gambit, to blame the likely no deal onto the EU.

 As regards no deal Mogg, says it'll be fine whilst at the same time setting up another company in Ireland. Well fine, but there will be a short term hit.... the length of short term debatable, but 50 years mentioned.

 The Irish PM says that there will be no use of Irish airspace, for UK flights to the US....  the UK boss of Amazon says there will be civil unrest and a government organistion recommends, they stock up on tin foods to weather the fall out.

 I posted a while back of the logic of out meaning out, therefore if the consequences are dire we'll just have to get on with it, take the hits and seize the opportunity to re-order society.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 11:43:05
Our politicians just make sure we all keep on winning

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44926447

I often wondered what it would be like to live in a corrupt Banana Republic, now we all know.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 12:26:56
The Brexit situation has got even more interesting in the last 10 days or so.

 May got her Chequers fudge, but that was soon kicked into touch by the EU.... I can only assume, it was a gambit, to blame the likely no deal onto the EU.

 As regards no deal Mogg, says it'll be fine whilst at the same time setting up another company in Ireland. Well fine, but there will be a short term hit.... the length of short term debatable, but 50 years mentioned.

 The Irish PM says that there will be no use of Irish airspace, for UK flights to the US....  the UK boss of Amazon says there will be civil unrest and a government organistion recommends, they stock up on tin foods to weather the fall out.

 I posted a while back of the logic of out meaning out, therefore if the consequences are dire we'll just have to get on with it, take the hits and seize the opportunity to re-order society.

But we still get blue passports, right?

Win.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 12:30:31
You're all missing the key point here which is that Rees-Mogg and Philip May's offshore companies will make a fuck-ton of money out of the whole scam. So what if a few peasants starve, small price to pay


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 12:35:49
You're all missing the key point here which is that Rees-Mogg and Philip May's offshore companies will make a fuck-ton of money out of the whole scam. So what if a few peasants starve, small price to pay

No doubt, but I am struggling a bit to understand how, I was musing on this very point when I was out on my bike the other day?

There are a lot of people who stand to gain if currencies and markets do the unexpected things, hence Soros on Black Monday and Farage's mates in 2016 which merely illustrated that a lot of this is to do with making shadowy backers big money whilst ignoring the effects on us plebs.

Now JRM, Farage etc have lots of business interests and mates who work in disruptive capital, betting on market changes, yet by creating this mess and pushing for the most damaging economic brexit possible it seems fairly well accepted by economists that come next March the pound and the UK markets (at the very least) are going to take an absolute hammering (albeit short term/long term who knows) but that's fairly well programmed and thus banks/governments etc are preparing for that, so where is the opportunity to make cash as you are essentially backing a dead cert with rubbish odds?

However, what if (following the model Farage used in June 2016) the markets are steered to set themselves up for an absolute shit storm and then something changes at the last minute to instead cause an entirely unexpected upturn in the markets, someone could make a killing on that? JRM, Farage, Johnson and Gove have got to gain something out of this, their political careers are going down the shitter so it must be a financial benefit they are after - whats odds the hardliners have an Epiphany about a week before the big day - once the market positions are taken obviously?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 12:38:20
No doubt, but I am struggling a bit to understand how?


By moving their capital out of the UK (this part has already started) and then hoovering up capital assets on the cheap when the UK economy crashes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 12:41:18
By moving their capital out of the UK (this part has already started) and then hoovering up capital assets on the cheap when the UK economy crashes.

Possibly so, but that just doesn't seem a big enough carrot or a closed enough market for all this hassle as they will be battling with the middle and far east governments (who have considerably deeper pockets) for any assets which will have diminished potential if the UK is reduced to basket case status?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 16:27:26
Possibly so, but that just doesn't seem a big enough carrot or a closed enough market for all this hassle as they will be battling with the middle and far east governments (who have considerably deeper pockets) for any assets which will have diminished potential if the UK is reduced to basket case status?
Is that going to happen after the emergency budget if we voted to leave, or before the 5 million job losses that never happenend. That giant Wolf from Norway hasn't arrived to eat us all and we're 2 years down the road since the vote to leave. Still the great brainwashed keep talking the UK down, the only thing remain can offer is project fear parts 3,1,7, and 19 (diane abbott is adding up the project fear numbers). Why keep spouting what the EU elite keep telling you, all those remain politicians are receiving EU funding,which is why they want the public to keep paying.FFS form your own reasoned oppions, not Sky news, the bbc or the guardian's.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 16:40:50
I think it's fair to say that it's the warnings of economic pain from industry bosses that are getting the most attention.  Not those of the 'EU elite', 'Remain politicians', Sky News, the BBC or the Guardian.  Or Diane Abbott.

Have you considered, perhaps, that you may have been just a tiny little bit brainwashed yourself?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 19:26:27
I think it's fair to say that it's the warnings of economic pain from industry bosses that are getting the most attention.  Not those of the 'EU elite', 'Remain politicians', Sky News, the BBC or the Guardian.  Or Diane Abbott.

Have you considered, perhaps, that you may have been just a tiny little bit brainwashed yourself?

No I haven't been brainwashed, now stop being fuck1ng silly. Amazon said there's going to be riots and food shortages.
Is that the same Amazon who didn't pay any UK tax? or maybe I should listen to Richard Branson who wants us to live in the Eu and work like loyal little slaves while he doesn't wish to live anywhere near Europe. Just self intersted Elites telling the little people what to think.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 20:25:30
Explain to me how our own UK Parliament is going to solve that "Issue", elites running the show, if that is the issue?  Recent history suggests you will get more of the same.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 20:31:17
Explain to me how our own UK Parliament is going to solve that "Issue", elites running the show, if that is the issue?  Recent history suggests you will get more of the same.
Recent history is all about eu elite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 20:34:38
Is that going to happen after the emergency budget if we voted to leave, or before the 5 million job losses that never happenend.
While you're right about the bullshit spouted as "Project Fear" by the Remain team (although let's be honest Leave weren't exactly scrupulous about not telling massive fucking porkies or playing on people's fears were they?) it's a bit early to say any projected job losses never happened. They'd be most likely to happen in numbers after we leave, at the moment no-one has any idea what terms we are leaving on. Depending on how those terms sit on a scale from good to disastrous, that might trigger large scale economic problems.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 20:35:40
Recent history is all about eu elite.
Like the multi-millionaires Gove, Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg you mean? All of whom stand to make a fat profit from us leaving? That EU elite?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 20:52:48
No I haven't been brainwashed, now stop being fuck1ng silly. Amazon said there's going to be riots and food shortages.
Is that the same Amazon who didn't pay any UK tax?

The Amazon fella just said civil unrest.... Amazon pay much lower tax in the UK and next to fuck all in the RoI, compared to the rest of the EU, who are rather keen in getting a bit more fairness into the system, so in that sense UK out of Europe will suit them.  One thing you will be able to bank on is that the Brexiteers see a low state, low tax economy as a goal.

The problem will be for them if a Corbyn government occurs and pursues them with more vigour than Brussels.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 22:17:05
I like that the chap who funded the Farage Leave campaign seemingly chucked a few hundred thousand at some dodgy African politicians in the hope of getting the rights to some Diamond Mining Licenses - not at all Elite!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 22:32:33
Howzabout a National Government then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 22:49:41
No I haven't been brainwashed, now stop being fuck1ng silly. Amazon said there's going to be riots and food shortages.
Is that the same Amazon who didn't pay any UK tax? or maybe I should listen to Richard Branson who wants us to live in the Eu and work like loyal little slaves while he doesn't wish to live anywhere near Europe. Just self intersted Elites telling the little people what to think.

Actually it was a representative of this 'Brexit will be great' Government who said they were beginning to plan stockpiles of food and medicines, just in case.  I don't understand why everyone who disagrees with you, or who has severe doubts about the sanity of the government is from the self-interested elite.  If you cannot see what Johnson, Gove, Banks, Farage, Rees-Mogg et al are up to, that's an issue for you.  Believe me, it is not for the benefit of ordinary people in the street.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 22:59:23
Actually it was a representative of this 'Brexit will be great' Government who said they were beginning to plan stockpiles of food and medicines, just in case.
Dominic Raab, no less, long time hardcore Brexiteer, so no sabotaging Remoaner. Quoted in the pro-Brexit Telegraph (in case there's any concern about the BBC, Sky etc misrepresenting him):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/24/stockpiles-food-medicine-blood-will-built-no-deal-brexit-becomes/

Not so much Project Fear as Project "Oh Fuck"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 25, 2018, 09:54:42
Dominic Raab, no less, long time hardcore Brexiteer, so no sabotaging Remoaner. Quoted in the pro-Brexit Telegraph (in case there's any concern about the BBC, Sky etc misrepresenting him):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/24/stockpiles-food-medicine-blood-will-built-no-deal-brexit-becomes/

Not so much Project Fear as Project "Oh Fuck"

Still winning.....

Brexit progress report:

“The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history"- Liam Fox, 20/7/17

"We will make sure there's adequate food supplies"- Dominic Raab, 24/7/18, when asked about preparations for 'no deal' scenario


But at least we get blue passports and the death penalty seems to be making a quiet comeback as well.  ::)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, July 25, 2018, 10:40:17
Still winning.....

Brexit progress report:

“The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history"- Liam Fox, 20/7/17

"We will make sure there's adequate food supplies"- Dominic Raab, 24/7/18, when asked about preparations for 'no deal' scenario


But at least we get blue passports and the death penalty seems to be making a quiet comeback as well.  ::)

It's only right, that HMG should have contingency plans for the likely no deal..... we've seen plenty of examples like when there was a fairly spontaneous but somewhat limited blockade of the Stanlow Oil Refinery back in 2000, how quickly the country descended into chaos.... causing the Queen to invoke emergency powers

The M2 turning into a lorry park is a fairly regular occurence when the French blockade Calais.

Apparently the Dutch, a pragmatic people, have already recruited hundreds of extra excisepersons to cope with having to inspect lorries etc. entering Europort.... we haven't, despite control, of borders being an aim of Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, July 25, 2018, 21:09:13
No doubt she will resign if foud guity.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5991597/Labour-MP-Fiona-Onasanya-charged-perverting-course-justice.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, July 25, 2018, 21:28:27
I dunno.  Seems to be different standards these days.  Apparently you can openly lie to the house, be found out and forget about it these days.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, July 25, 2018, 21:37:05
I dunno.  Seems to be different standards these days.  Apparently you can openly lie to the house, be found out and forget about it these days.


The red lot or the blue lot?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, July 26, 2018, 00:12:34
No doubt she will resign if foud guity.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5991597/Labour-MP-Fiona-Onasanya-charged-perverting-course-justice.html

Let's wait until the legal process has taken its course...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, July 26, 2018, 07:00:42
The red lot or the blue lot?

Probably both but theres an awful lot of tories whove got away with it recently.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, July 26, 2018, 10:34:30
Probably both but theres an awful lot of tories whove got away with it recently.

May seem like it, without defending ANY of them of either colour, the conservatives have held the office of government since 2009? With the Lib Dem’s for half of that time so you’d expect them to be more in the spotlight.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, July 26, 2018, 10:40:18
May seem like it, without defending ANY of them of either colour, the conservatives have held the office of government since 2009? With the Lib Dem’s for half of that time so you’d expect them to be more in the spotlight.

2010.

2015, marked the Tories getting in on their own, and in 3 short years have brought the country to its knees... quite an achievement.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, July 26, 2018, 21:33:34
2010.

2015, marked the Tories getting in on their own, and in 3 short years have brought the country to its knees... quite an achievement.


I'm no fan of the tory party but brought the country to its knees? I remember a letter from Liebour saying "all the money's gone good luck" We ended up with our countries beggest ever debt and that's what brought the country to it knees and still is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, July 26, 2018, 21:45:00
2010.

2015, marked the Tories getting in on their own, and in 3 short years have brought the country to its knees... quite an achievement.



Oh do shut up. You’re a stuck fucking grammaphone record. The conservatives are in power, one seat, one hundred seats, they’re in power. 52% v 48%, the people voted, we are leaving the EU. Do not like it? Fuck off to a socialist state, maybe Venezuela could be ideal for you? To hot? Well main land Europe would be an equally opportune destination to sate your political appetite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, July 26, 2018, 23:03:59
No I haven't been brainwashed, now stop being fuck1ng silly. Amazon said there's going to be riots and food shortages.
Is that the same Amazon who didn't pay any UK tax? or maybe I should listen to Richard Branson who wants us to live in the Eu and work like loyal little slaves while he doesn't wish to live anywhere near Europe. Just self intersted Elites telling the little people what to think.
You obviously feel strongly about misinformation and "little people" being made fearful.  Do you recall the Leave ad that stated that  Turkey was joining the EU and reported on a "survey" of people who thought this was a good or a bad thing?

Do you recall Penny Mordaunt, now Sec. of State for International Development, clarifying on tv as follows:

No [the British government] doesn’t [have a veto]. We are not going to be able to have a say … I do not think that the EU is going to keep Turkey out. I think it is going to join.

In case there are any "little people" or "loyal little slaves" on this forum, could you just clarify if any part of Penny Mordaunt's statement was either true or knowledgeable?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, July 26, 2018, 23:38:46
You obviously feel strongly about misinformation and "little people" being made fearful.  Do you recall the Leave ad that stated that  Turkey was joining the EU and reported on a "survey" of people who thought this was a good or a bad thing?

Do you recall Penny Mordaunt, now Sec. of State for International Development, clarifying on tv as follows:

No [the British government] doesn’t [have a veto]. We are not going to be able to have a say … I do not think that the EU is going to keep Turkey out. I think it is going to join.

In case there are any "little people" or "loyal little slaves" on this forum, could you just clarify if any part of Penny Mordaunt's statement was either true or knowledgeable?
No fucking idea. Couldn’t careless about Turkey joining the EU because A) that won’t happen (Cyprus) B) to many countries would be flooded by economic migrants using Turkey as an easy route. C) Turkey could not in as many decades as you wish to state bring itself up to a genuinely democratic, ‘corruption free’ free society. As for Penny Mordaunt, who? Is she the tractor driver or the mud on the wheels? £350m a second, minute, hour, day, week, month, year? Really? You think people who voted to leave were that gullible? Piss off, the gullible ones were the remainders who thought those voting to leave believed that shit, because I for one didn’t. Equally I didn’t believe all the Armageddon scenarios of the remain campaign. Infact the more the remainders tried to frighten the shit out of people the more I was convinced that my vote to leave was the correct one and secondly that the leave vote just might pull it off. It has taken forty odd years to entangle us into the European Project, if it takes that long to divorce ourselves from it so be it. A small price to pay in the long term. 🇬🇧


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 27, 2018, 00:30:00
Oh do shut up. You’re a stuck fucking grammaphone record.

What's a grammaphone record  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: NZrobin on Friday, July 27, 2018, 06:50:04
From a long way away.

It seems Britain has a real fucking problem.... a Country divided and not knowing what to do and who to believe and rightly so !!!.

A Prime minister who is leak and generally pityfull. An opposition leader who for reasons can't challenge and shouldn't be there.

Suggest the only person who has show any balls and some ability to sort this out could be the Khan guy who took over from Johnson the boris as Mayor of London.

That said, there is a fuck wit in America who could do a number for you... though he is a wee bit busy with a few issues of his own at the moment. Bring on Donald  soapy tit wank

COYR's



   


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, July 27, 2018, 07:25:02
Suggest the only person who has show any balls and some ability to sort this out could be the Khan guy who took over from Johnson the boris as Mayor of London.

He's the only person to show any balls? what by flying a childish ballon of trump and wanting to revese Brexit!
Look at the crime wave in London since he took over from Boris, if that's some measure of him having balls.
Why didn't arrange protests and refuse to receive Qatar’s Emir Tamim bin Hamad Al-Thani.
Look at what he supports and you'll understand the hypocrisy of Khan.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Friday, July 27, 2018, 07:57:49
Wasn't actually him who flew it though was it. He merely said under free speech they are entitled to flow that pathetic shit balloon they flew.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, July 27, 2018, 08:11:02
What's a grammaphone record  :hmmm:

Walking Encyclopaedia? Are you sure? I mean the spelling may be suspect but surely even you know what I mean? Or maybe an attempt at some low level sarcasm has crept into you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, July 27, 2018, 08:26:56
so like a gramophone then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 27, 2018, 08:56:31
so like a gramophone then?

Yes....

(https://www.collinsdictionary.com/images/thumb/gramophone_108546017_250.jpg?version=3.1.171)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, July 27, 2018, 09:07:39
The EU is responsible for the rise of the far right across Europe - good old UK excepted.

Strange that Leavers have been branded racist yet Remainers want to continue to cosy up to those lurching to the right.

Get out now before the whole shebang goes tits up. Short, economic pain is a price worth paying.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, July 27, 2018, 09:12:10
Short, economic pain

Up to 50 years....
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2018/jul/24/two-50-or-100-years-when-do-leavers-think-brexit-will-pay-off

And the far right want out don't they?

Have I missed something?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, July 27, 2018, 09:19:08
Yes, the Far Right and Left both want out. My point is that the Project is failing now. Any economic pain felt by the UK leaving now and making new trade deals before the rest of Europe implodes must be a good thing.

The EU just cannot succeed. Borders are already being put back up. Germany is attempting to restrict migrants now. Others are refusing to let any in. When political careers are on the line any red lines will be breached.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 27, 2018, 09:21:08
The EU is responsible for the rise of the far right across Europe - good old UK excepted.

Strange that Leavers have been branded racist yet Remainers want to continue to cosy up to those lurching to the right.

Get out now before the whole shebang goes tits up. Short, economic pain is a price worth paying.

Fog in the Channel... continent cut off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, July 27, 2018, 09:28:44
so like a gramophone then?

One of those too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Friday, July 27, 2018, 09:33:02
Did anyone else find Dominic Raab saying "Michel, we've got work to do" absolutely hilarious?

This guy means business.  8)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 27, 2018, 09:38:36
Oh do shut up. You’re a stuck fucking grammaphone record. T
Pot, meet kettle. You're just the Tory Reg, but with less depth


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, July 27, 2018, 09:47:33

The EU just cannot succeed. Borders are already being put back up. Germany is attempting to restrict migrants now.

I disagree with this. It may need to change and adapt, but its not doomed. And for me its far better to be part of that change than not - the alternative is this mess we are in.

In any case, if people are tending to the far right and far left (i.e. supporting a hard Brexit),  a vote on the final Brexit deal (or even on Brexit) should be supported by a clear majority. So what's the problem with reaffirming 'the will of the people'?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, July 27, 2018, 09:52:42
Well, the same could be said for a General Election. Manifestos are rarely adhered to.

Is it ideal that being intertwined so tightly with EU rules and regs is causing political and possible economic problems -no, of course not.

Is the alternative of remaining in a failing EU better - definitely not.

It’s a bit like being on a ship and asking for a lifeboat before hitting an iceberg.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 27, 2018, 09:58:29
The EU is responsible for the rise of the far right across Europe - good old UK excepted.
Don't see why you would exempt the UK from that. The populist far right is on the rise here too and have been more than happy to coat-tail on the back of Brexit. Leave EU admitted they specifically used far right fearmongering around immigration to boost their campaign and post-Brexit there's been a lot of intermingling between the remnants of UKIP/Leave EU with the leftovers of the EDL and support from US "alt-right" (hate that term, they're not "alt-anything" they're just bog standard old-fashioned fascists with internet channels) crowd. Same themes being used by far right here as in Europe, EU and fear of immigration being the main ones


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, July 27, 2018, 10:01:53
But you’ve now got Nazis speaking in the German parliament. Hardly the same as the tiny, thankfully, rag-tag twats that follow Tommy Robinson et al.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 27, 2018, 10:06:58
But you’ve now got Nazis speaking in the German parliament. Hardly the same as the tiny, thankfully, rag-tag twats that follow Tommy Robinson et al.
We are where they were a few years ago. The US cash seems to be aimed at forging an alliance between the street followers, the EDLs etc, and the more conventional political initiatives, UKIP under Farage, Leave EU etc, to create dual street/electoral force. The aim presumably being to get some momentum so that when the Tory party implodes they can ally with the hard right Tories under Johnson/Gove/Walter Rees-Mogg/Raab/Whoever. Tories give them credibility, the far right lot give the ex-Tories some muscle and some impetus


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Friday, July 27, 2018, 10:28:02
Re. Khan, I always find it strange that he gets blamed for the "crimewave" in London when it is directly attributable to the nationwide destruction of the police service which began with May as Home Secretary.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, July 27, 2018, 10:38:51
Well, the same could be said for a General Election. Manifestos are rarely adhered to.

Is it ideal that being intertwined so tightly with EU rules and regs is causing political and possible economic problems -no, of course not.

Is the alternative of remaining in a failing EU better - definitely not.

It’s a bit like being on a ship and asking for a lifeboat before hitting an iceberg.
As the Euro marked it's first decade, a certain Nigel Farage foretold it would not be around at its next ten year anniversary.  That was ten years ago.  Hmmm.  Well, it certainly won't be around in the next ten years, blah, blah blah.  

You bemoan Project Fear in one breath but seem oblivious to your own version vis the EU.  Irony?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, July 27, 2018, 10:43:21
Well, the same could be said for a General Election. Manifestos are rarely adhered to.

Is it ideal that being intertwined so tightly with EU rules and regs is causing political and possible economic problems -no, of course not.

Is the alternative of remaining in a failing EU better - definitely not.

It’s a bit like being on a ship and asking for a lifeboat before hitting an iceberg.
That's perfectly put Audrey  but those nanny state, stockholm syndrome,spoon feed me everthing types, can't see that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Friday, July 27, 2018, 10:52:37
That's perfectly put Audrey  but those nanny state, stockholm syndrome,spoon feed me everthing types, can't see that.

Maybe people can see it but it's your insistence on being an obnoxious cunt in every post that leads to more people disagreeing with you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, July 27, 2018, 10:56:48
Maybe people can see it but it's your insistence on being an obnoxious cunt in every post that leads to more people disagreeing with you.
Better an obnoxious cunt telling you the truth than so sleazy twat telling you what to think.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 27, 2018, 11:31:21
Better an obnoxious cunt telling you the truth than so sleazy twat telling you what to think.
Like these sleazy twats?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44446632

TLDR: Leave EU openly admitting to parliamentary hearing that their campaign was basically lies. Along with cheating on campaign spending. Oh, and Arron Banks and his Trump-style Russian connection.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Friday, July 27, 2018, 11:33:21
Better an obnoxious cunt telling you the truth than so sleazy twat telling you what to think.
You are so cute when you get angrier. Bum me


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, July 27, 2018, 11:47:26
You are so cute when you get angrier. Bum me
I'd like to thank you for calling me an obnoxious cunt. That's the nicest thing anyones ever said about me on this site.
I'll deciline the Bum fun, I have an aversion to Peanuts and fudge.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 27, 2018, 14:05:12
The EU is responsible for the rise of the far right across Europe - good old UK excepted.

Strange that Leavers have been branded racist yet Remainers want to continue to cosy up to those lurching to the right.

Get out now before the whole shebang goes tits up. Short, economic pain is a price worth paying.
People keep wittering on that Brexit must happen or the far right will be further emboldened. They were emboldened the moment the stupid referendum was voted for, leading one of their number to kill an MP in cold blood. The far right have owned the UK these past 2 years. The argument doesn't wash any more, you are merely actively and enthusiastically facilitating what you claim to be against.

BTW rumour has it that Steve Bannon is presently planning to set up some manner of Brussels based operation with the deliberate objective of emboldening the integration of the far right in Europe, and guess who he is in direct communication with regarding this, leading Brexiteers Johnson and Rees-Mogg, so you really think the UK is outside this conspiracy, or merely you are (hopefully unintentionally) one of the foot soldiers delivering this for your successors to deal with?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 27, 2018, 14:32:24
BTW rumour has it that Steve Bannon is presently planning to set up some manner of Brussels based operation with the deliberate objective of emboldening the integration of the far right in Europe, and guess who he is in direct communication with regarding this, leading Brexiteers Johnson and Rees-Mogg
That started way back with the direct links between the "Brexit Bad Boys" (Farage, Banks), Breitbart UK and Bannon and the Trump campaign team, linked up with all the dark money behind C Analytica, and all their mutual Russian links. All that's new really is Bannon surfacing it.
so you really think the UK is outside this conspiracy, or merely you are (hopefully) one of the foot soldiers delivering this for your successors to deal with?
Erm, you're not accusing Audrey of being some kind of far-right shill are you? Bit harsh?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, July 27, 2018, 14:39:39
I’m not on about the far right in the UK. Forget the referendum, the far right is on the rise in Germany, France, Netherlands, Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia. That’s not because of our referendum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Friday, July 27, 2018, 14:54:38
Very true


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 27, 2018, 14:54:55
I’m not on about the far right in the UK. Forget the referendum, the far right is on the rise in Germany, France, Netherlands, Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia. That’s not because of our referendum.
No, it's not. It is part of a general surge in the Far Right across Europe. Our far right is also rising on the back of that, albeit not (yet) to the same extent. They were also emboldened by, and made new alliances during, the referendum campaign. The links between the "electorally respectable" extreme ends of Brexit and the far right have continued since then and they are linking with those rising far right trends across Europe. There's no room for complacency.

(You missed out the US and Turkey btw and of course Russia which has bankrolled much of it)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 27, 2018, 15:04:02
Erm, you're not accusing Audrey of being some kind of far-right shill are you? Bit harsh?

Not necessarily intentionally (there should have been an unintentionally after the hopefully), however the argument is being used by a hell of a lot of people who are very keen to try and play ignorant of what is really going on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, July 27, 2018, 15:18:20
So, my original point on this matter - that the EU is in large part responsible for the rise of the right - you agree with.

There can be no doubt that this happening. If not the EU what else is it down to?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 27, 2018, 15:34:35
So, my original point on this matter - that the EU is in large part responsible for the rise of the right - you agree with.

There can be no doubt that this happening. If not the EU what else is it down to?
I do and I don't personally. I think there is a broader disconnect between the populace at large and the political elite that the far right (and to a lesser extent populists on the left) are capitalising on to mount a broad assault on Western liberal democracy, aided by the usual external actors. Dissatisfaction with the EU is part of that, but it's not the whole story. It has played no part in the rise of the far right in the US, the strongman authoritarian regime of Erdogan in Turkey, or the various extreme nationalist movements in Ukraine to give just a few examples.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 27, 2018, 15:48:30
So, my original point on this matter - that the EU is in large part responsible for the rise of the right - you agree with.

There can be no doubt that this happening. If not the EU what else is it down to?

Not really, the rise of the right seems to be a fairly cyclical process, I recall for instance things were equally unpleasant in the early 90's, thankfully at that stage they didn't have a national cause supported by high profile politicians and a major party to tie their flag to.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, July 27, 2018, 15:55:40
That may be true of France and the Le Pens and, to a lesser extent, Germany but those other countries i mentioned have only seen a rise in the right since joining the EU. It is also affecting those liberal Scandanavian countries.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 27, 2018, 16:01:55
That may be true of France and the Le Pens and, to a lesser extent, Germany but those other countries i mentioned have only seen a rise in the right since joining the EU. It is also affecting those liberal Scandanavian countries.

Or since emerging from behind the iron curtain - there is possibly a common theme emerging here, which might also have links to Brexit and Trump..  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, July 27, 2018, 16:10:10
You may well be right. At least it makes a change having a discussion without it descending into insults.

No doubt some fuckwit will spoil that later!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, July 27, 2018, 16:33:35
don't know much about the "far right" but it seems to me there are two strands of supporter

  • the wealthier, libertarian neo-con, often well placed to take advantage of change and sometimes with overseas contacts to help prepare the way.
  • those adapting rather unsuccessfully to changing economic patterns (stagnating earnings and job insecurity) brought on by technology and globalisation generally.

To an extent many in the second category (often with some encouragement from the first category) actually conflate the effects of globalisation with the EU itself.  

My view is that a number in the first category propagate an EU-blame culture and masquerade as sharing the concerns of the second category but in fact hold a distinct agenda where the concerns of the second category are dispensable.

The most spectacular rise of the right in Europe took place in the 1930s and, coincidentally (?), found plenty of support in England amongst similar categories as above



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 27, 2018, 16:38:43
You may well be right. At least it makes a change having a discussion without it descending into insults.

No doubt some fuckwit will spoil that later!

Ah fuck off! :D ;)

BTW been out all day and its been very quiet the last couple of days, assume we a) haven't signed anyone and b) thus all are resigned to our apparent fate of non league football in 2019-20 ::)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 27, 2018, 20:34:38
Ah fuck off! :D ;)

BTW been out all day and its been very quiet the last couple of days, assume we a) haven't signed anyone and b) thus all are resigned to our apparent fate of non league football in 2019-20 ::)
FFS, will you please keep football out of the bloody politics thread? ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Robinz on Friday, July 27, 2018, 23:11:15
Again, from a long way off...

Bring back Nigel @ the very least it's entertainment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9LiFqtBmKU

COYMR's



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Wednesday, August 8, 2018, 11:26:56
What is hilarious, is the rabid mob of unwashed lefties on here describing anyone they disagree with as 'far right'. Brexiteers and UKIP are now associated with the likes of combat 18 and Adolf Hitler Himself.

Ironically the ideologies Pauld and his ilk will go so far to defend, are far more patriarchal with fascist elements than any of these groups. We seem to be living in a paradoxical world, where the left and it's bed budy (islam) have become truly authoritarian and intolerant. A liberal society that nurtures and encourages the growth of anti liberal / authoritarian sentiment, is only going to produce a future of true fascism under the banner of 'anti fascism'. You know today's society is easy when all people do is complain about being offended, or my favourite lefty trick; when someone is offended on behalf of another who is not actually offended.

I can here the shotgun being loaded with those now meaningless and over used terms that the unwashed use. Racist. Islamaphobe. Nazi and so forth.....







Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, August 8, 2018, 11:35:24
What is hilarious, is the rabid mob of unwashed lefties on here describing anyone they disagree with as 'far right'.

You won't find many lefties on here....

This is more an evening with Ironside sort of place

http://thetownend.com/index.php?topic=33414.0


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, August 8, 2018, 11:48:22
Many on the left are not aligned with Islam, or other religions that promote intolerance and hatred. For many on the left, such doctrines are incompatible with their liberal views.

What's most telling is when people focus on one doctrine (and more specifically, it's adherents) in the name of freedom or whatever, while ignoring other doctrines that share similar, or even identical, values...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, August 8, 2018, 12:08:10
What is hilarious, is the rabid mob of unwashed lefties on here describing anyone they disagree with as 'far right'. Brexiteers and UKIP are now associated with the likes of combat 18 and Adolf Hitler Himself.

Ironically the ideologies Pauld and his ilk will go so far to defend, are far more patriarchal with fascist elements than any of these groups. We seem to be living in a paradoxical world, where the left and it's bed budy (islam) have become truly authoritarian and intolerant. A liberal society that nurtures and encourages the growth of anti liberal / authoritarian sentiment, is only going to produce a future of true fascism under the banner of 'anti fascism'. You know today's society is easy when all people do is complain about being offended, or my favourite lefty trick; when someone is offended on behalf of another who is not actually offended.

I can here the shotgun being loaded with those now meaningless and over used terms that the unwashed use. Racist. Islamaphobe. Nazi and so forth.....







What we know as Right and Left are modern constructs, they change, and are changing.  As an example, where I am today, the "Left" party appears to be for those on welfare and the "elite", which makes no sense to me, and the "right" party seems to have shifted into appearing to be a party of the hard working country folk and beaten up factory workers/coal miners/Christian fanatics.

I'd happily call you far right or left, whichever label you fancy having.  Your views, as expressed, are a relative minority view (even if closely associated with more mainstream).  You don't particularly like foreigners (old right wing ideology) broadly speaking because they are not like you, specifically having an issue with anyone who associates with the Muslim faith, because a small % of that faith interpret the religion in ideological ways as being far more radical than the majority do.  You believe, not fact, that our very "culture and way of life, whatever they may be, are under attack by their "invasion".  You have some sort of issue with people of wealth, very left wing in old speak, and maybe (this is me taking a leap) think they have some shared goal of controlling the masses (again, very left wing paranoia, but based in some sort of reality I'd wager).

Populism, the new name given to this middle ground fear effort, a bad name as history suggests it broadly won't be more than 50% supported, is fear based.  It's about blame.  It's an inversion of the Crusaders approach.  Instead of going out to convert and protect, we are inwardly pitching that some sort of war is upon us in the West, which Populism likes to suggest is a Judeo Christian faith based culture.  Frankly I have no time for any religions based on my experiences of how they treat people outside their own faith (considering their faith teaches them they are the only ones who are right, that makes sense).

Our own history actually shows we can't even get along for more than a few decades with ourselves without having a fight about which branch of that religion is right.  Bannon is pushing Catholicism as the supporting religion, which means Breitbart has plenty of anti-Semitic crap being posted, ironic as that is a UK issue for the left wing party of choice as well.

My understanding was that the West was about tolerance, about choice and freedoms, about allowing people to make the best of themselves within fair and reasonable laws.  Where business was allowed to flourish and encourage Innovation, but, where we understood that sometimes has impacts in the short term on the people of our culture and we should be willing to give them support when times are hard.  Personally, I'd do away with borders full stop, but that won't happen, they've been constructed since we saw another one of the same of us.

In conclusion, mine, Populism is a bad solution to current world problems.  It is divisive by it's nature, just as Nazism and Communism have been in the past.  Maybe not as openly hateful right now, but their is an end game it can lead to - what if those pesky elites won't give up their world domination? what if they really do come for their guns in the Wild West USA? what if the boats of Muslim Invaders really do seem to be showing up on the beaches?

On Fox there was an interesting piece from a right wing supporter explaining why the left didn't get what USA meant, where he used his Greek dad seeking a better life with no money and just hard work and desire, escaping Nazi Germany creating civil war in his country.  The fact that this individual see's no parallel to the issue we created Syria is all I need to know that current Populism is a death march.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, August 8, 2018, 12:30:43
I was telephone canvassed this morning all about the Election past, present and future voting intentions and of course the Brexit chequers deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, August 8, 2018, 12:37:45
Hope you didn't keep the canvasser too long when asked about Brexit ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, August 8, 2018, 12:41:58
Hope you didn't keep the canvasser too long when asked about Brexit ;)

Oh no, not at at all, it was a fairly brief and painless exercise to answer the options given to me 😉


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, August 8, 2018, 12:45:51
Oh no, not at at all, it was a fairly brief and painless exercise to answer the options given to me 😉
Oh well.  There's always the TEF  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, August 8, 2018, 12:56:33
Oh well.  There's always the TEF  :)

Indeed there is my friend 😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Munichred on Wednesday, August 15, 2018, 20:28:52
Don't understand all this fuss between Trump and Turkey. I didn't know American Pasta was so special...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 11:49:23
But the media told me it was only Labour that had a racism problem??
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dm9hpqDX4AE3NRP.jpg)
Corbyn is still a dick, but if you ever wanted evidence of the somewhat biased reporting in our media, this is barely getting a mention anywhere mainstream and just imagine the fuss if Labour has whipped its MEP's to vote the same way?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 13:57:17
Torys were the only party in Europe to stick up for Orban.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 14:03:06
Torys were the only party in Europe to stick up for Orban.

They also align themselves with the Sweden Democrats, the far right party that everyone was getting all a lather about in the Swedish elections the other week.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 16:40:08
Trump is always worth a good giggle (I can giggle because I can't vote).  Today's hes managed to start his own conspiracy story about the death toll in Puerto Rico , claiming it's been made up by Democrats trying to make him look bad, at the same time as a Hurricane is lashing the coast of the USA.  According to him, only 6 or 8 people seem to have died, not nearly 3,000!!!!  He clearly must think that chucking a few paper towel bags at a crowd solved the crisis on the island.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 16:58:41
He says things on a weekly basis that would be a major scandal in the entire career of most politicians. The worrying thing is that his supporters continue to lap it up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 17:00:55
Most people seem to have gone full head scratching on this one, several Republicans suggesting he's wrong, and Fox News has decided not to report it, which is usually a sign he's gone full mental.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Thursday, September 13, 2018, 21:03:52
He says things on a weekly basis that would be a major scandal in the entire career of most politicians. The worrying thing is that his supporters continue to lap it up.

Boris is in the same position, although people seem less persuaded by it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 14, 2018, 19:56:42
Boris is in the same position, although people seem less persuaded by it.
Hmm, we'll see about that when May finally gets the push


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Friday, September 14, 2018, 22:52:26
What a choice we have next election. Idiot self serving tories, or idiot self serving labourites. Oh and the liberals the NF and all the rest can shove a stick up their arses. Twats all of them. They get this spiel when they knock on my door, strangely they haven't for about 3 years now. Not one of the cowardly bastards. I think the "fuck off" politico sticker on the door may have given them a clue. Did i say they were all twats?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, September 14, 2018, 22:57:43
Seeing as there is a report out today stating another financial crisis has already started which will turn out worse than the last one, I don’t think it matters too much which bunch of tossers are in No. 10.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Friday, September 14, 2018, 23:02:14
Seeing as there is a report out today stating another financial crisis has already started which will turn out worse than the last one, I don’t think it matters too much which bunch of tossers are in No. 10.

In my book thats good news, the less investment bankers, hedge fund managers, and estate agents we have, can't be that bad.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 16:41:30
Some won't be happy about this but I've always said it wasn't the true issue regarding a claim to Brexit. Many were sold the biggest lie since Blair's WMD.

Read here;

https://t.co/KlPRWSnZMG?amp=1

or here (if the above doesn't work);

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-workers-uk-tax-treasury-brexit-migrants-british-citizens-a8542506.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 20, 2018, 15:16:14
Bombshell....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45586010


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, September 20, 2018, 16:15:31
This has to be the day, surely, that May concedes (at least in private) that Chequers is a non-starter.

2016: 'Brexit means Brexit!'
2018: 'Brexit?!  No idea.  Not a clue.  I have nothing.'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 20, 2018, 16:18:50
This has to be the day, surely, that May concedes (at least in private) that Chequers is a non-starter.

Remainers (including Tory ones) say it is rubbish.....
Brexiteers say it is rubbish.....
The EU say it is rubbish.....

So you would expect so?

The funniest bit was Responding to Mr Tusk's remarks, she said: "Yes, concerns have been raised and I want to know what those concerns are." they will be those that EU leaders have been raising almost daily for over 2 years?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, September 20, 2018, 16:30:05
Just give those who voted out what they asked for, it's pretty simple.  Clean up the mess after - and there can be no denying there will not be a big mess in Ireland that will spill into England.

Hopefully, those who voted out will be applying for the new Border patrol forces that will be required in N. Ireland?

I don't know why 2 years has been wasted trying to fudge the thing.  Either the vote counted or it didn't?  If it did, and it should, then just prepare for a reset on the exit date in the two years you have, get new structures in place and then start over.  Right now you seem to have the worse of all worlds.  It's like a vitriolic divorce and trying to say "lets stay friends for the kids".

The "country" (that is part of the problem, a Union trying to leave another Union) needed to vote to get out, and it needs to take it's medicine, or sit on the stairs for a few years while it considers what is has done.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, September 20, 2018, 16:30:43
She has nowhere to go.  Wouldn't be particularly shocked if she resigned in the next few days.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 20, 2018, 16:39:42
She has nowhere to go.  Wouldn't be particularly shocked if she resigned in the next few days.

Who knows, its clear that the ERG nutters realise that they are not going to get their ideas through parliament or they would have unseated her months back, she remained their best hope of getting us out (I don't think they have any plans post MArch 2019 apart from taking the dollars of their funders and buggering off to France etc), whilst maintaining the charade, and then she could be replaced next April.

Meanwhile a lot of Labour supporters seem to suggest that their long game is coming to fruition, https://www.opendemocracy.net/sunny-hundal/labour-won-t-support-brexit-their-critics-are-ignoring-all-clues but are also saying that a 2nd referendum is not viable. Its not clear what happens if they get their GE and go on to win, do they just seek to extend A50, as if they fight an election based on ambiguity they will be unable to claim any new mandate either way on Brexit and as suggested above this nonsense will just drag on?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, September 20, 2018, 16:44:36
Where's Nev from the Call Centre when you need him, 'GET OUT, OUT!"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 20, 2018, 17:11:53
Who knows.

It is very difficult to tell exactly what is going on atm.  I think come March we'll have a better idea.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, September 20, 2018, 19:25:59
It is very difficult to tell exactly what is going on atm.  I think come March we'll have a better idea.
By March, we should be out by law, as parliment forced by Gina Miller voted by a majority to leave.
The EU will have to plug the millions lost by increasing taxes on the countries remaining.
Countries like Greece and Italy will face financial disaster and bankruptcy.
Kleg,Kinnock,Mendleson, will loose a large part of their EU, tax payer funded pensions
Hesletine will loose his farming payment and jobs promised to political failures will evaporate.
The only alternative will be to ignore the referendum vote,ignore the legal vote by parliment and overide Article 50 ignoring EU law.
First extend, then rescind article 50, ignoring EU & UK law and UK democracy, is the best chance of reversing the current position. May has wasted 2 years deliberately so that the process can be halted. There's far to many political types drinking from the trough to let the cash flow stop.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, September 20, 2018, 19:27:53
Quote from: Reg Smeeton
Quote
Who knows.
It is very difficult to tell exactly what is going on atm.  I think come March we'll have a better idea.

or, if you beleive Gove, we will come out under chequers then negotiate more after..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, September 21, 2018, 11:35:22
By March, we should be out by law, as parliment forced by Gina Miller voted by a majority to leave.
The EU will have to plug the millions lost by increasing taxes on the countries remaining.
Countries like Greece and Italy will face financial disaster and bankruptcy.
Kleg,Kinnock,Mendleson, will loose a large part of their EU, tax payer funded pensions
Hesletine will loose his farming payment and jobs promised to political failures will evaporate.
The only alternative will be to ignore the referendum vote,ignore the legal vote by parliment and overide Article 50 ignoring EU law.
First extend, then rescind article 50, ignoring EU & UK law and UK democracy, is the best chance of reversing the current position. May has wasted 2 years deliberately so that the process can be halted. There's far to many political types drinking from the trough to let the cash flow stop.
It's as if you want to "punish" the EU.

If we go up, I wouldn't begrudge a single euro to Mendleson.  I shall be singing his "Elijah" oratorio from the Townend.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 21, 2018, 13:43:55
Lost:

1 plot, if found please return to 10 Downing Street, London.

She has finally flipped


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, September 21, 2018, 13:53:01
Brinkmanship...

or we are fucked.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 21, 2018, 13:54:46
Brinkmanship...

or we are fucked.

She (and those programming her) just don't seem to get how negotiations work...

In simple terms the EU did not vote to leave the UK. It is not the EU’s job to put forward the UK’s plan for leaving. It is their job to negotiate what the U.K. put forward, is it really so hard to grasp.

As for the respect nonsense. again they don't seem to grasp that EU leaders can read the bile and spite that she and her ministers spout day in day out in the media about the EU, so frankly love that ship sailed years back!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, September 21, 2018, 14:25:59
A colleague of my wife's said when the Brexit vote happened that he could foresee Brexit not happening and us staying in the EU without the original preferential benefits that the UK receives.

What a mess that fool David Cameron has left us.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Friday, September 21, 2018, 18:04:22
She (and those programming her) just don't seem to get how negotiations work...

In simple terms the EU did not vote to leave the UK. It is not the EU’s job to put forward the UK’s plan for leaving. It is their job to negotiate what the U.K. put forward, is it really so hard to grasp.

As for the respect nonsense. again they don't seem to grasp that EU leaders can read the bile and spite that she and her ministers spout day in day out in the media about the EU, so frankly love that ship sailed years back!

What a pile of absolute tosh- and I voted remain as I bought better we could reform the EU from within.

Their behaviour over the past 2 years has shown me that this is impossible and I would now vote leave in a heartbeat.

Look how they treated Greece, Ireland, Denmark they’re just a bunch of bullies.

May has put her plan forward which in my opinion she has conceded too much already- if they don’t like it they should come
up with an alternative rather than putting up childish Instagram posts.

Walk away now, no divorce bill and watch them come running for a deal







Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, September 21, 2018, 18:59:14
What a pile of absolute tosh- and I voted remain as I bought better we could reform the EU from within.

Their behaviour over the past 2 years has shown me that this is impossible and I would now vote leave in a heartbeat.

Look how they treated Greece, Ireland, Denmark they’re just a bunch of bullies.

May has put her plan forward which in my opinion she has conceded too much already- if they don’t like it they should come
up with an alternative rather than putting up childish Instagram posts.

Walk away now, no divorce bill and watch them come running for a deal

👍








Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, September 21, 2018, 19:00:10
Remainers (including Tory ones) say it is rubbish.....
Brexiteers say it is rubbish.....
The EU say it is rubbish.....

So you would expect so?

The funniest bit was Responding to Mr Tusk's remarks, she said: "Yes, concerns have been raised and I want to know what those concerns are." they will be those that EU leaders have been raising almost daily for over 2 years?

Which are?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, September 21, 2018, 19:04:31
Lost:

1 plot, if found please return to 10 Downing Street, London.

She has finally flipped

I can’t understand why you vilify the woman. She’s a remainer, with a remaining cabinet in a remaining government with a remaining HOL and a remaining phalanx of whitehall mandarins.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, September 21, 2018, 19:12:10
Your views expressed, Outlet, make it intriguing to ascertain how you ever came to vote remain.  Was it a slip of the pen?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, September 21, 2018, 19:16:40
Which are?

The 4 freedoms. They haven't changed. If you want access to the common market, you accept freedom of movement. The end.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, September 21, 2018, 19:16:53
I can’t understand why you vilify the woman. She’s a remainer, with a remaining cabinet in a remaining government with a remaining HOL and a remaining phalanx of whitehall mandarins.
Are you telling me that the three musketeers, Boris, Fox and Davis were powerless when in post as against "wheatfield" May and a pen pushing civil servant. What were they doing drawing their ministerial pensions?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, September 21, 2018, 19:28:43
Why the fuck should the EU concede any ground in the negotiations?

They didn’t ask us to leave, fair play to them for digging their heals in. We wanted to leave so it’s us who should give up the ground and inevitably suffer for it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, September 21, 2018, 19:29:18
The last 24 hours (for me it’s been decades but there you are) have IMHO proved we as a nation were right to reject the EU.

May the remainer has been trying to appease the EU and those remainers around her at the same time trying to deliver on the vote which was unequivocal in its question. Not forgetting going against the will of the people throws up all sorts of constitutional complications. The EU for their part have thrown all sorts of shit/objections at the U.K. most of which May has conceeded to. Their final snub yesterday was childish, petulant and grandstanding particularly for Macron who’s birds are coming home to roost.

What strikes me is that although there are 27 members of this club or ‘project’ the majority of them have no real sway, which doesn’t seem very democratic to me. That said the EU heirachy are stone walling in the vain hope we’ll end up having another vote after all they have firm in that front just to make sure they they get the ‘Tusk cherry’ by us caving in and agreeing to reverse the decision of two years ago. Two hopes Bob & No.

Either the EU recognises our sovereign right to political and trading independance or they don’t. If they do then don’t be intransigent work to make it work. If not then kiss goodbye to the divorce bill, let’s have our rightful EU assets back and our share of the Galileo funding if you’re going to freeze us out. We’ll abide by our written financial obligations for as long as those are legally binding.

After that it WILL work out, trust me, to many people in government on both sides of the channel and in business have a vested interest in making things work and again it will.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, September 21, 2018, 19:33:44
Are you telling me that the three musketeers, Boris, Fox and Davis were powerless when in post as against "wheatfield" May and a pen pushing civil servant. What were they doing drawing their ministerial pensions?

Err as serving MP’s I doubt they are drawing their ministerial pensions just yet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, September 21, 2018, 19:35:30
Why the fuck should the EU concede any ground in the negotiations?

They didn’t ask us to leave, fair play to them for digging their heals in. We wanted to leave so it’s us who should give up the ground and inevitably suffer for it

I think May has given plenty of ground already don’t you? Why would you want your own country and citizens to suffer at the hands of other countries? Strange.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, September 21, 2018, 19:36:58
ok, building their ministerial pensions.  What were they doing these last 2 years?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, September 21, 2018, 19:37:58
ok, building their ministerial pensions.  What were they doing these last 2 years?

I don’t know. What do you think?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, September 21, 2018, 19:39:10
I think May has given plenty of ground already don’t you? Why would you want your own country and citizens to suffer at the hands of other countries? Strange.

I don’t want our country to suffer obviously, I believe it will suffer for generations though, hence i voted remain


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, September 21, 2018, 19:40:08
I don’t want our country to suffer obviously, I believe it will suffer for generations though, hence i voted remain

Pray tell us how we will suffer?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, September 21, 2018, 19:43:06
 I voted remain as I bought better we could reform the EU from within.

The old reform from within Bullsh1t. We've never changed anything about the EU, just managed a few minor concessions.
Tony Blair the war monger keeps say changed from within and he's dammaged goods.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, September 21, 2018, 20:00:33
Pray tell us how we will suffer?

Can’t be bothered to go into that as I’m off to the boozer to enjoy some european beer.

For the sake of arguement just assume my answer is the same as most remainers



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, September 21, 2018, 20:01:42
Pray tell us how we will suffer?

You do realise that the EU stance is precisely to observe our Sovereignty, right?  We are quitting, they don't have to agree to anything as there is nothing to agree to - we leave, done.  The negotiations are about a new relationship with the EU, they can take it or leave t I guess.

One way we will suffer - not to be all Reg about this, but history suggests a staright leave under current agreement (none) will result in one of two things:

a) a soft border with the Rep of Ireland to appease the republican side of N Ireland - this will pretty much mean we cannot control our borders as those who wanted us to leave desire.  Instead, people will be able to go via Rep of Ireland and travel through.  If free movement of people was supposedly a problem, it would remain a problem.

or b) a hard border with checkpoints will be needed to close off the immigration loophole.  This would undo the Good Friday Agreement and  most likely bring us back to an active insurgence in N Ireland, plus mainland bombings again as a push for independence/re-unification with Ireland is demanded.

That one isn't reliant of economic theories, it's a basic and obvious car crash happening in slow motion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, September 21, 2018, 20:03:56
I voted remain as I bought better we could reform the EU from within.

The old reform from within Bullsh1t. We've never changed anything about the EU, just managed a few minor concessions.
Tony Blair the war monger keeps say changed from within and he's dammaged goods.



This unfortunately is why I suggest the vote to Leave was the right one.  You can't vote to be in something you don't really like, and the hope of changing it's path is a forlorn one at best.  Our problem was not buying into what it is all about - f you can't sell that to the populace then you shouldn't be a part of it.  Nothing wrong in saying that and also saying that life won't be as good in pure economic terms if you exit a huge free trade block.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Friday, September 21, 2018, 20:06:41
Just walk away, stop attending any meetings and stop paying monies in. Sooner or later they will see we won’t be bullied or just roll over and have our bellies tickled. The EU will be begging for a deal then because which ever side of the fence you sit it’s clear to see the EU will struggle without the U.K. part of it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, September 21, 2018, 20:14:19
Just walk away, stop attending any meetings and stop paying monies in. Sooner or later they will see we won’t be bullied or just roll over and have our bellies tickled. The EU will be begging for a deal then because which ever side of the fence you sit it’s clear to see the EU will struggle without the U.K. part of it.

Not sure how - we have a huge trade deficit with the EU, so while they'll lose a net contributor to the Govt set-up, the countries will be fine as they'll also be able to slap some tariff's one I guess.  It took them how many years to get trade deals sorted with places like Canada?  Why would they be any more inclined to sort something out with the UK?  It's not that they don't want to, it's that you have to get 27 countries to agree, so it takes time.  We don't have that, so the most likely outcome is a no deal exit, which is fine, just plan for it and stop the charade.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, September 21, 2018, 20:47:23
Can’t be bothered to go into that as I’m off to the boozer to enjoy some european beer.

For the sake of arguement just assume my answer is the same as most remainers



🏳️ 😂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Saturday, September 22, 2018, 00:53:01
Yep you’ve really got me banged to rights there :clap:


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, September 22, 2018, 09:42:38
Just walk away, stop attending any meetings and stop paying monies in. Sooner or later they will see we won’t be bullied or just roll over and have our bellies tickled. The EU will be begging for a deal then because which ever side of the fence you sit it’s clear to see the EU will struggle without the U.K. part of it.
Just for clarity how you dealing with the hard border in Ireland and thus the voiding of the GFA in that case?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Saturday, September 22, 2018, 13:52:55
I voted remain as I bought better we could reform the EU from within.

The old reform from within Bullsh1t. We've never changed anything about the EU, just managed a few minor concessions.
Tony Blair the war monger keeps say changed from within and he's dammaged goods.



We only get our own way 95% of the time...

http://theconversation.com/fact-check-does-britain-get-its-way-at-the-european-top-table-58610


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, September 22, 2018, 18:08:38
Whether you voted to leave or remain, surely we can all agree that those in government who wanted out should have had a cogent exit plan. None of the issues being faced now should have been a surprise to them.
As for 'The EU needs us more than we need them' argument, I'm really not convinced.

Despite my view that Theresa May is a hatchet faced harridan I kind of feel sorry for her. The useless old trout has been given a stick with 2 shitty ends....

Oh and Boris Johnson, the lovable buffoon, isn't. He's a poisonous self serving cunt who'd stab his own mum in the back if it furthered his own ambitions. Can't believe people are taken in by him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Saturday, September 22, 2018, 18:19:01
Oh and Boris Johnson, the lovable buffoon, isn't. He's a poisonous self serving cunt who'd stab his own mum in the back if it furthered his own ambitions. Can't believe people are taken in by him.
Never a truer word has been spoken on the TEF.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, September 22, 2018, 18:29:04
Despite my view that Theresa May is a hatchet faced harridan I kind of feel sorry for her. The useless old trout has been given a stick with 2 shitty ends....

Oh and Boris...

Absolute lovely use of the English (possibly French) language. Harridan always makes me think of a Spitting Image character like Thatcher or Lamont! +1


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: OOH! SHAUN TAYLOR on Saturday, September 22, 2018, 19:08:44
Absolute lovely use of the English (possibly French) language. Harridan always makes me think of a Spitting Image character like Thatcher or Lamont! +1
Just for Reg...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OfPFgARsE0

I reckon he has erotic fantasies about Mrs Thatch...  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, September 22, 2018, 19:53:34
Just for Reg...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OfPFgARsE0

I reckon he has erotic fantasies about Mrs Thatch...  :hmmm:


 :no:

Spitting Image should come back though...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, September 22, 2018, 20:13:41
Definitely should!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, September 23, 2018, 07:18:54
One sign off the mad world we now live in is that the Conservative & Unionist Party, or at least the right wing of it, now seems not only to be stridently anti-business but also working night & day to facilitate the break up of the UK.  This article puts it rather well.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/22/hard-brexit-risks-breakup-uk-conservatives-warn

I can't quite work out whether the likes of Rees-Mogg actually no longer give a sh#t about the union, or that they believe Scotland & NI will ultimately do as they're told anyway like good little colonies and come round to the idea of a hard Brexit they never voted for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: OOH! SHAUN TAYLOR on Sunday, September 23, 2018, 09:26:42
:no:

Spitting Image should come back though...
Sadly, I don't think it could. I was watching the classic SI clip below and thinking that there's no way they would be able to get away with it in 2018. We supposedly live in the most liberal, open and free speaking of times ever but that is just not the case these days. Effectively, everything we see, hear or read is unofficially censored by the keyboard warriors on Twitter and other social media who are just waiting, trigger fingers poised, to be OFFENDED...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxEweP2TiMk

Just try to imagine the 'Twitter Storm' that would cause now. Forget fire, rain, snow, sand - 'The Twitter Storm' - it's the very worst kind of storm known to man. Hundreds of thousands of do gooders with too much time on their hands, striking fear into into the heart of every company, organization and news or media organization.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Sunday, September 23, 2018, 10:20:00
Not as funny as Steve Hughes on being offended alas.

But has anyone been amused at the offence taken over the gentle "sorry, no cherries" ribbing?


Look at the evolution of Brit Foreign Secretaries:


Then: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

French President (Hollande)  The UK cannot expect the same trade deal outside the UK as in inside it
Brit Foreign Secretary (Johnson):  responded by likening the French President to a WW2 Prison Camp Guard and spoke of punishment beatings.

Michael Gove:  People "offended" by The Foreign Secretary's comments today are humourless, deliberately obtuse, snowflakes-it's a witty metaphor.

Now:
  :badmood:

EU  (Donald Tusk):  picture of May and Cake: "sorry, no cherries" metaphor
Brit Foreign Secretary (Hunt):  "an insult to the British People"  (and plenty more of what Gove calls "humourless snowflakes" willingly outing themselves).


 ;)









Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 24, 2018, 08:02:55
Oh and Boris Johnson, the lovable buffoon, isn't. He's a poisonous self serving cunt who'd stab his own mum in the back if it furthered his own ambitions. Can't believe people are taken in by him.

There are rumours surfacing that Johnson may switch sides seeing how the country is moving as it may offer an opportunity to further his ambitions by saving the day....

https://twitter.com/MitchBenn/status/1043167970137186304


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Monday, September 24, 2018, 08:13:19
Love a bit of Mitch Benn, did you know he was Elvis on Steve Wrights "Ask Elvis" slot? nice bloke too, met him many times.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 10:49:22
I'll put this here to keep politics out of other threads.

Found myself today blocking a 'friend' on FB for sharing 'Corbyn is an IRA sympathiser' stuff. That's one of the good things about FB, you can just block the gullible. A grown man, otherwise seemingly intelligent, just taking in whatever he's fed with an apparent inability or unwillingness to apply critical thinking. Nah!

Don't like Corbyn? Fine, I've no problem with that. We all have opinions. I'm hardly a massive fan myself. Buying into tabloid propaganda? Fuck off, you're not worth my time. Shoo, begone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 11:20:44
I've a couple of ex football teammates (ooh friend, football friend) that occasionally share the "this muslim has sponged off the state and killed 27 dogs and  was really mean to a girl guide, share if you agree with Tommy Robinson that they should be sent 'home' "  type messages.

I had to mute 1 because I'm too nice to de-friend them. To be honest they were good mates, thankfully didn't get into that kind of conversations back then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 11:29:14
It's odd how they often seem so intelligent/reasonable when you have the craic with them in a pub. Show them a daily mail headline, though, and they seem to regress. It's not even the right-wing bigotry I'm moaning at here (although I don't like it), it's peoples' gullibility when it comes to believing the press. (The left do it as well)

They do seem to be genuinely intelligent at times so it's baffling that the cognitive distortions are so effective.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 11:58:01
I worked with a company who’s MD occasionally retweeted insane Muslim/immigrant/Brexit type stuff on his company twitter.

He was a really nice bloke and he ran a good company, but why you’d want to shit on your customer base, potential or otherwise, is mind boggling.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 12:05:46
I'll put this here to keep politics out of other threads.

Found myself today blocking a 'friend' on FB for sharing 'Corbyn is an IRA sympathiser' stuff. That's one of the good things about FB, you can just block the gullible. A grown man, otherwise seemingly intelligent, just taking in whatever he's fed with an apparent inability or unwillingness to apply critical thinking. Nah!

Don't like Corbyn? Fine, I've no problem with that. We all have opinions. I'm hardly a massive fan myself. Buying into tabloid propaganda? Fuck off, you're not worth my time. Shoo, begone.

Corbyn is the worst thing that could have happened to the Labour party and I know those that disagree will do so with vigour - it is precisely that response which is the issue.  He is a leader that retreats a party into a much more ideological base of supporters, the same as a Trump, or imagine for a second, Redwood for the Conservatives.  I have no issue with people having passionate beliefs, but that;s not what Government is about.

On the Johnny Foreigner stuff, I have this debate with my parents, which is fun.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 12:11:31
Corbyn is the worst thing that could have happened to the Labour party and I know those that disagree will do so with vigour - it is precisely that response which is the issue.  He is a leader that retreats a party into a much more ideological base of supporters, the same as a Trump, or imagine for a second, Redwood for the Conservatives.  I have no issue with people having passionate beliefs, but that's not what Government is about.


Which is fine, I'm not going to argue for not against that. My intention is not really to discuss politics, I just put it in here because it would inevitably go that way.

My problem is with those that lap up the tabloid propaganda. That he's a commie, IRA sympathiser, antisemetic pro-Muslim terrorist fanboy traitor Brit hater. (I've probably missed something).

And all because the tabloids say so.  



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 12:12:05
I worked with a company who’s MD occasionally retweeted insane Muslim/immigrant/Brexit type stuff on his company twitter.

He was a really nice bloke and he ran a good company, but why you’d want to shit on your customer base, potential or otherwise, is mind boggling.


Bizzare.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 12:58:21
It's odd how they often seem so intelligent/reasonable when you have the craic with them in a pub. Show them a daily mail headline, though, and they seem to regress. It's not even the right-wing bigotry I'm moaning at here (although I don't like it), it's peoples' gullibility when it comes to believing the press. (The left do it as well)

They do seem to be genuinely intelligent at times so it's baffling that the cognitive distortions are so effective.  
But just where does anybody go to get unbiased opinion, let alone facts.   If you are left leading you'll head for The Grauniad which will just spout their agenda as any other paper will do

You can't use the internet for facts or TV. Its why countries get one useless government after another. Everything is smoke and mirrors.

I've lived through nationalised railways, water companies etc and I don't want that. I've also lived through uncaring, I'm alright Jack politics and I don't want that either. I'm too old in the tooth now for any of the twats to affect me much but politics can't carry on like this


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 13:13:23
But just where does anybody go to get unbiased opinion, let alone facts.   If you are left leading you'll head for The Grauniad which will just spout their agenda as any other paper will do

You can't use the internet for facts or TV. Its why countries get one useless government after another. Everything is smoke and mirrors.

I've lived through nationalised railways, water companies etc and I don't want that. I've also lived through uncaring, I'm alright Jack politics and I don't want that either. I'm too old in the tooth now for any of the twats to affect me much but politics can't carry on like this

Try a decent pub.  FWIW the Guardian is hardly left leaning, it does however try to be a forum for a wide range of opinions, trying to keep within the spirit of CP Scott's founding principles. However, there will always be an editorial slant, and for today's Graun that is a pro feminist, anti Corbyn bias.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 13:22:57
But just where does anybody go to get unbiased opinion, let alone facts. 

I don't think there is such a place, although there are sources that claim to be impartial in regard to facts.

I just wish that people were able to process the 'information' themselves. Is X right because the mail or the guardian says so? Have they presented all the facts? Is this really fact or just an attention-grabbing headline?... and so on.

I think it's something that should be taught in schools.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 17:14:35
People who debate and air their judgement should be made to declare any vested interest. We have MP's and Lords who've directed UK tax payers money, into their bank accounts via the EU, telling the public we shouldn't leave. Further more anyone who's not born in the UK or with another countries passport,shouldn't be allowed to vote or give a public presentation/TV interview. Their thoughts and opinions may be swayed by other loyalities.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 18:04:27
that would bugger both sides


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 18:33:58
that would bugger both sides
Remain more me thinketh. With people like michael heseltine screaming to stop brexit because he'll loose his eu farming subsidies 90 k per year. Gina Millar wasn't even born in the UK? who set her up as a leading authority. Most of the House of Lords who are defying the UK elected government are just interested in their fact,tax free EU pensions. If I had my nose in the trough then I'd be telling people, who were looking to end my cosy life style, to change their minds very quickly. Nothing to do with democracy, the will of the people or parliments rights. Just an elite who want the cash.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 20:07:52
Of course, leading the van guard for the hard nose brexiteers is US born and, until 2016 a US citizen, Boris Johnson.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 20:16:07
Gina Millar wasn't even born in the UK?
Neither was Boris. What's your point? Do you want him banned from political office?

their fact,tax free EU pensions.
What exactly is an EU pension? Never heard of it, I'm guessing it's the usual Brexiter bullshit but please let us know.

Quote
Nothing to do with democracy, the will of the people or parliments rights. Just an elite who want the cash.
The real elites are the millionaire spivs and fraudsters like Farage, Aaron Banks, Andy Wigmore and their Russian mates.. They and their Cayman Island accounts have got far more to gain than so-called EU pensions.
https://badboysofbrexit.com/ (https://badboysofbrexit.com/)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 20:53:27
Remain more me thinketh.

Rees-Mogg and Boris will do alright for themselves.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 21:12:42
Neither was Boris. What's your point? Do you want him banned from political office?
Yes
What exactly is an EU pension? Never heard of it, I'm guessing it's the usual Brexiter bullshit but please let us know.
The real elites are the millionaire spivs and fraudsters like Farage, Aaron Banks, Andy Wigmore and their Russian mates.. They and their Cayman Island accounts have got far more to gain than so-called EU pensions.
https://badboysofbrexit.com/ (https://badboysofbrexit.com/)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 07:02:42
Rees-Mogg and Boris will do alright for themselves.

I’m sure you’re right, after all they have done rather well under the Jack boot of the EU and it’s predecessors the EEC & Common Market haven’t they?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 18:33:10
Neither was Boris. What's your point? Do you want him banned from political office?
What exactly is an EU pension? Never heard of it, I'm guessing it's the usual Brexiter bullshit but please let us know.
The real elites are the millionaire spivs and fraudsters like Farage, Aaron Banks, Andy Wigmore and their Russian mates.. They and their Cayman Island accounts have got far more to gain than so-called EU pensions.
https://badboysofbrexit.com/ (https://badboysofbrexit.com/)

Michael Heseltine is a farmer whom sits on land, receiving large sums of funding from EU demands second referendum... Who cares what he thinks, who cares what remoaners think. Democracy is a litmus test for a MOMENT IN TIME. You cannot keep rerunning something because you lost.
I'd be fine with Boris not being in the uk government and politics because he's not UK born.
Gina Millar has no right to a voice in the UK she wasn't born here.
No one who's from the Irish republic  should vote in the UK,we can't vote in there's.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 18:37:19
if it's a shit decision based on half truths then of course you should change it. that is democracy.

in this case though, if we decided to change it I assume the EU would have to let us. I assume that they would not do so on the same terms with the same power of veto.

In other words we've fucked ourselves both ways


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 19:36:55
if it's a shit decision based on half truths then of course you should change it. that is democracy.

It was a sh1te decision based on lies, the lies of Ted (no loss of sovereignty) Heath and then a referendum based on a bullshit by Harold (I'll get us a new deal) Wilson. Give it another 30 or 40 years and we can have another vote about rejoining. In the mean time the UK is leaving soon and we'll be out before another ref can be arranged and held.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 20:05:07
Michael Heseltine is a farmer whom sits on land, receiving large sums of funding from EU demands second referendum... Who cares what he thinks, who cares what remoaners think. Democracy is a litmus test for a MOMENT IN TIME. You cannot keep rerunning something because you lost.
I'd be fine with Boris not being in the uk government and politics because he's not UK born.
Gina Millar has no right to a voice in the UK she wasn't born here.
No one who's from the Irish republic  should vote in the UK,we can't vote in there's.

That's not true. British people living in Ireland can vote in European elections, local elections and for the TD to represent them in the Dail - as I did when I lived there


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 20:13:46
That's not true. British people living in Ireland can vote in European elections, local elections and for the TD to represent them in the Dail - as I did when I lived there
British people can't vote in southern Irish general elections, whilst people from the republic can vote in ours. Hope that clears it up for you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 20:21:26
It was a sh1te decision based on lies, the lies of Ted (no loss of sovereignty) Heath and then a referendum based on a bullshit by Harold (I'll get us a new deal) Wilson. Give it another 30 or 40 years and we can have another vote about rejoining. In the mean time the UK is leaving soon and we'll be out before another ref can be arranged and held.


This.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 03:31:32
British people can't vote in southern Irish general elections, whilst people from the republic can vote in ours. Hope that clears it up for you.
What don't you understand about the fact that British people living in Ireland can vote for their chosen TD - or MP if that makes it easier for you to understand. Stop spouting shite


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 08:10:46
What don't you understand about the fact that British people living in Ireland can vote for their chosen TD - or MP if that makes it easier for you to understand. Stop spouting shite

He doesn't understand as it doesn't suit the ill informed narrative he is parroting.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 08:24:00
He doesn't understand as it doesn't suit the ill informed narrative he is parroting.....
Here's your Ill informed narative.

Article 16 of the Constitution of Ireland as approved in 1937, and amended in 1972 to lower the voting age, provided that the franchise for elections to Dáil Éireann would be citizens who have reached the age of 18. The Electoral Amendment Bill 1983, proposed by the Fine Gael–Labour Party government led by Taoiseach Garret FitzGerald, would have amended the Electoral Act 1963 to allow British citizens as defined by the British Nationality Act 1981 to vote in elections to Dáil Éireann. This was to reciprocate the Ireland Act 1949, a British statute, which among other provisions had granted Irish citizens resident in the United Kingdom the right to vote in elections to the British parliament.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 08:33:48
He doesn't understand as it doesn't suit the ill informed narrative he is parroting.....

British citizens may vote at Dáil elections, European elections and local elections. 

So not in referenda, not sure what other elections the Irish have.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 08:39:46
Here's your Ill informed narative.

Article 16 of the Constitution of Ireland as approved in 1937, and amended in 1972 to lower the voting age, provided that the franchise for elections to Dáil Éireann would be citizens who have reached the age of 18. The Electoral Amendment Bill 1983, proposed by the Fine Gael–Labour Party government led by Taoiseach Garret FitzGerald, would have amended the Electoral Act 1963 to allow British citizens as defined by the British Nationality Act 1981 to vote in elections to Dáil Éireann. This was to reciprocate the Ireland Act 1949, a British statute, which among other provisions had granted Irish citizens resident in the United Kingdom the right to vote in elections to the British parliament.

Unless I’ve misunderstoood, You’re talking to a British national who has voted in Irish elections


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 08:43:02
Democracy is a litmus test for a MOMENT IN TIME. You cannot keep rerunning something because you lost.
Except for the most important votes we cast, the general and local elections to elect who governs us which we run every 4-5 years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 09:01:45
British citizens may vote at Dáil elections, European elections and local elections. 

So not in referenda, not sure what other elections the Irish have.
How many Irish people are there in the UK eligible vote (yes I have Irish friends and go to Ireland with them) It's around 350,000 They are all pro EU and vote for the Communist labour Party in the UK.
So for those snowflakes who are still upset their team lost the last referendum and general election.
Even with the support of the civil service, all of the house of Frauds, 9 million pounds worth of Tax payers money.
eu & business Bankrolled ex MP's.
"British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens who live in the UK, and Britons who have lived abroad for less than 15 years, that were eligible to vote".
Leave vote represents the largest mandate in British political history as 17,410,742 people voted to leave the European Union. If you don't like those facts just accept and admit your not a person who believes in democracy.
To end with a quote from the late great Tony Ben when he campaigned to leave the EU and lost in the 1970's The people have spoken and who am I to defy them!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 09:07:12
Except for the most important votes we cast, the general and local elections to elect who governs us which we run every 4-5 years.
Well why didn't we have a vote on our EU every 4 or 5 Years?
The country had a 41 year gap between referendum's, that's now the bench mark and we can vote again on rejoining 2057


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 09:17:01
Unless I’ve misunderstoood, You’re talking to a British national who has voted in Irish elections

That was rather the point I was making, although he has learnt to cut and paste so I suppose that's a positive outcome from the whole exchange.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 09:25:08
To be fair to him he has spoken to all 350,000 Irish nationals in the UK and knows that they are all Labour supporting pro EU voters.

That’s decent knowledge



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 09:26:34
Well why didn't we have a vote on our EU every 4 or 5 Years?
The country had a 41 year gap between referendum's, that's now the bench mark and we can vote again on rejoining 2057

 Sorry, I can't respond to your post above this one as it really makes no sense.

 However, our relationship with the EU has been included in party manifestos at General Elections. So for example the 83 Labour manifesto, called for ther withdrawal from the EU, Labour didn't get in.

 UKIP was founded as a single issue anti EU party I think won something like 1 MP.

Now given, that UKIP obtained a lot of votes for their 1 MP, I would have said it calls into question our voting system and how representataive that is.... however this was put to the test by the Tory/Lib Dem coalition in a referendum and found a majority in favour of the status quo.

At the last election, the pro remain party LibDems bombed the pro leave Tory/Labour did well. The only issue is the terms of leaving.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 09:51:48
How many Irish people are there in the UK eligible vote (yes I have Irish friends and go to Ireland with them) It's around 350,000 They are all pro EU and vote for the Communist labour Party in the UK.
So for those snowflakes who are still upset their team lost the last referendum and general election.
Even with the support of the civil service, all of the house of Frauds, 9 million pounds worth of Tax payers money.
eu & business Bankrolled ex MP's.
"British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens who live in the UK, and Britons who have lived abroad for less than 15 years, that were eligible to vote".
Leave vote represents the largest mandate in British political history as 17,410,742 people voted to leave the European Union. If you don't like those facts just accept and admit your not a person who believes in democracy.
To end with a quote from the late great Tony Ben when he campaigned to leave the EU and lost in the 1970's The people have spoken and who am I to defy them!

You won get over it......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 11:24:39
To be fair to him he has spoken to all 350,000 Irish nationals in the UK and knows that they are all Labour supporting pro EU voters.

That’s decent knowledge


Thanks, I'm just like Gina Millar I speak for you all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 11:34:27
Sorry, I can't respond to your post above this one as it really makes no sense.

 However, our relationship with the EU has been included in party manifestos at General Elections. So for example the 83 Labour manifesto, called for ther withdrawal from the EU, Labour didn't get in.

 UKIP was founded as a single issue anti EU party I think won something like 1 MP.

Now given, that UKIP obtained a lot of votes for their 1 MP, I would have said it calls into question our voting system and how representataive that is.... however this was put to the test by the Tory/Lib Dem coalition in a referendum and found a majority in favour of the status quo.

At the last election, the pro remain party LibDems bombed the pro leave Tory/Labour did well. The only issue is the terms of leaving.
The terms of leaving are simple, it said on the ballot paper accept Dave's sh1tty deal or leave everything. No deal, no Eu laws, no payments. We go by world trade laws. This deal shite only reared its head after, as a leave in name only,have another vote to overule the first one option.It was never voted on by the people in 2016,but somehow we were all too stupid to understand what we were really voting for. Now all of a sudden its so complicated, the stupid people who didn't know what they were voting for in 2016 need a peoples vote, because its far too complicated for the political class?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 11:36:48
The terms of leaving are simple, it said on the ballot paper accept Dave's sh1tty deal or leave everything. No deal, no Eu laws, no payments. We go by world trade laws.
It said nothing of the sort. The question was do you want to remain in the EU, or leave the EU. Nothing whatsoever about the additional absolutist stuff you have added on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 11:43:03
Maybe any 2nd referendum on the terms of the exit deal should be open only to those who voted leave.

In the interest of fairness they should also be the ones to bear the brunt of any costs associated with any resulting economic downturn, or to reap the benefits of the brave new world.

Also, ask them to wear a badge so that the rest of us know when to give up a seat on public transport.

Other than that, couldn't care less what happens next, although the completely shambolic nature of proceedings since the vote has been a source of great amusement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 12:11:27
It said nothing of the sort. The question was do you want to remain in the EU, or leave the EU. Nothing whatsoever about the additional absolutist stuff you have added on.
I agree it said Leave the other stuff, I haven't added on, those remainers have. Just to confuse and push for a second vote.
If TM wants a deal we should leave first and get our UK house in order.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 12:14:15
Also, ask them to wear a badge so that the rest of us know when to give up a seat on public transport.

Why not make it a white star sewn onto leavers clothing.
As for making them pay for any ecconomic downturn, where do we send the invoice for all the ones we've had since being in the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 12:31:46
I agree it said Leave the other stuff, I haven't added on, those remainers have.
You did add it on:
The terms of leaving are simple, it said on the ballot paper accept Dave's sh1tty deal or leave everything. No deal, no Eu laws, no payments. We go by world trade laws.
None of that was on the ballot paper. It probably should have been - this is half the problem why we're in the mess we're in, because Cameron and Osborne were so arrogant in assuming that we'd all do as we were told they didn't even bother phrasing the question properly. So everyone seems to have their own version of what they think they voted for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 12:45:40
To be fair to ken, he is spouting some god awful unintelligent shit, but one thing he is spot on about, in my view - get the fuck out.  Sever the ties and take the shit that comes with it.  Sort out the new relationship by all means, but not as something that HAS to be done before exit.

The country needs to take it's medicine now - work out if it really was that important.  I say this as someone who is so Pro EU I'd give up the UK parliament, just so my view is provided with context, and I know I am about 1% of the population, so accept the majority view, and have buggered off and left the mess (for another one, but I have the fun of discovery to distract me).

None of that makes it any less likely that a cluster fuck awaits, somewhere.  Might even see a change in Govt as a result, once people realise the current political systems in the UK are just as shit as the EU ones and have been all along.  The Mosques are not going to be pulled down because we left the EU for example - immigration from the countries people really were worried about will continue just as it did before, because it is that immigration we had complete Sovereignty over anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 13:30:22
The terms of leaving are simple, it said on the ballot paper accept Dave's sh1tty deal or leave everything. No deal, no Eu laws, no payments. We go by world trade laws.

You do realise that there are no such thing as World Trade Laws, instead we are merely putting ourselves at the mercy of an entirely unelected body who oversee trade in the simplest terms which rather flies in the face of the whole 'sovereignty argument' as we will become a very small fish in a group of 164 members rather than being a rather large fish in a group of 28), thus successfully becoming the first country in the history of the world to, by our own volition, end up with a trade deal vastly inferior to what we presently have, turning ourselves into being the only country  revert back to a position of having no trade agreements with anyone, and at a time when Trump is actively seeking to bugger over the WTO (see his refusal to co-operate on appointments) so it will cease to be even relevant in around 2 years time, coincidentally around the time we will get very dependent upon it, way before we can manage to get anything sorted so essentially we will drop back to being, in trade terms, friendless in a very dynamic trading environment, but blue passports and all that.

To be fair to ken, he is spouting some god awful unintelligent shit, but one thing he is spot on about, in my view - get the fuck out.  Sever the ties and take the shit that comes with it.  Sort out the new relationship by all means, but not as something that HAS to be done before exit.

The country needs to take it's medicine now - work out if it really was that important.  I say this as someone who is so Pro EU I'd give up the UK parliament, just so my view is provided with context, and I know I am about 1% of the population, so accept the majority view, and have buggered off and left the mess (for another one, but I have the fun of discovery to distract me).

None of that makes it any less likely that a cluster fuck awaits, somewhere.  Might even see a change in Govt as a result, once people realise the current political systems in the UK are just as shit as the EU ones and have been all along.  The Mosques are not going to be pulled down because we left the EU for example - immigration from the countries people really were worried about will continue just as it did before, because it is that immigration we had complete Sovereignty over anyway.

What many brexiteers don't seem to get is that even no deal is never going to get through parliament for the simple fact that to simply revert back to WTO jurisdiction and take the associated shit storm would come with the necessary imposition of a hard British Border in Ireland and the immediate trashing of the GFA with associated risk of taking us back into the 1970's, now we have some total tools in parliament but I think even they would struggle to get that one through.

The WTO has become the Utopia grasped by the Brexiteer charlatans as the solution to all the matters of detail they didn't think about whilst bullshitting to get the vote through, it basically solves nothing, yet Johnson JRM continue to be allowed to spout all and sundry in the media to persuade people that it will solve all that is delaying Brexit, it simply won't and is another red herring.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 14:32:35
The WTO will not have any judges to enforce its rules by March 2019 if Trump holds true to his word.  

The apparatus of a rules-based world order, inc WTO, are looking flakier than ever.

Trump is busy unilaterally reneging on agreements, removing funding, disregarding international judgements, imposing tarrifs and generally threatening the weak or isolated:

   Iran Amity Treaty
   Climate Change Accord ,
   UNRWA,
   UN,
   ICJ,
   ICC,
   Steel  and other Tarrifs on China, EU (inc UK) and Canada  
   NAFTA

See how the USA has treated its other special friend, Canada, in tearing up NAFTA and as a result practically imposing the USMCA.

See US threats to "third countries" unwilling to co-operate with its demands on steel, Iran sanctions etc.  

Freedom in today's global world is the prerogative of the big beasts, ie USA, EU, China and Russia (militarily).

It isn't fair.

You can yearn for the reign of Queen Victoria or more recently of Emperor Hoxha of Albania but otherwise "sovereignty" is not on offer to small or medium sized entities because only the big beasts can resist or even impose their will.  Conjuring up imagery of the spirit of the Blitz is certainly now irrelevant to UK's future after Brexit.  

Far, far worse, cheap metaphors grossly disrespect the real sacrifices made by many of that generation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 20:54:36
I agree with Nick.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, October 4, 2018, 21:00:49
All the squabbling aside...once the murky, foggy, smog has settled (can fog settle? No it's just a cloud that you are in.) I do wonder...will our tax thresholds go up a fair bit? As we become an attractive offshore location. I'm not talking Gibraltar style proportions here but could we actually see some taxes dropped? Like Wealth Tax/Sales Tax etc.

It's not really a definitive question and it's open for discussion but my feeling is, if we're going to have any sort of relationship then the UK is going to have to open it's kegs and whore itself, surely?  :hmmm: << For Reg :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, October 5, 2018, 00:31:35
All the squabbling aside...once the murky, foggy, smog has settled (can fog settle? No it's just a cloud that you are in.) I do wonder...will our tax thresholds go up a fair bit? As we become an attractive offshore location. I'm not talking Gibraltar style proportions here but could we actually see some taxes dropped? Like Wealth Tax/Sales Tax etc.

It's not really a definitive question and it's open for discussion but my feeling is, if we're going to have any sort of relationship then the UK is going to have to open it's kegs and whore itself, surely?  :hmmm: << For Reg :)

We already do that.... we chose to pool certain aspects of sovereignty, for reasons of national interest. On joining the Common Market, HMG took on board VAT.... this replaced the UK Purchase Tax, which was levied on mainly luxury items.

HMG has leeway on its rate. Rees Mogg has stated that one of the aims of Brexit is to abolish VAT on female sanitary products currently rated at 5%.... I'm hopeful that in 6 months time, we might not have to pay 20% tax on bog paper.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 5, 2018, 09:08:17
All the squabbling aside...once the murky, foggy, smog has settled (can fog settle? No it's just a cloud that you are in.) I do wonder...will our tax thresholds go up a fair bit? As we become an attractive offshore location. I'm not talking Gibraltar style proportions here but could we actually see some taxes dropped? Like Wealth Tax/Sales Tax etc.

It's not really a definitive question and it's open for discussion but my feeling is, if we're going to have any sort of relationship then the UK is going to have to open it's kegs and whore itself, surely?  :hmmm: << For Reg :)

Interesting you mention Gibraltar which seems to have been entirely forgotten in the whole circus, apparently 95% of their waste is disposed of in Spain so perhaps will become less attractive with waste on the streets unless we dispatch a gun ship to collect it. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, October 5, 2018, 09:45:07
Surely, if they just leave their rubbish out in the open, those Barbary Apes will eat it all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, October 5, 2018, 11:06:18
Surely, if they just leave their rubbish out in the open, those Barbary Apes will eat it all.

Ssshhh. You'll be giving councils over here ideas.
A pool of very cheap labour, possibly with some discipline issues, but what the hell, give them a go.

Theresa May's Barbary Army.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, October 5, 2018, 20:50:03
Interesting you mention Gibraltar which seems to have been entirely forgotten in the whole circus, apparently 95% of their waste is disposed of in Spain so perhaps will become less attractive with waste on the streets unless we dispatch a gun ship to collect it. 

I hadn't forgotten good old Gibraltar. It does the beg the question though...Has our Government. In fact we stopped giving a hoot about them a while ago. Which is why they enforced many of their own financial ideals. I think I read, if you're a fairly wealthy Brit and have £2m floating around, you can invest your money in Gibraltar and only face tax capped at about £30K. That's 1.5% as a quick guess. I think that's based on being granted CAT-2 status/residency.  Even for a self employed worker the tax is ever higher than 29% no matter how much you earn.

Anyway, our Gov has started getting twitchy about Gibraltar probably because several in  parliament have "vested interests" at the Rock.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 10:12:16
I have a question.  If, as seems probable, the Chequers deal advocated by Theresa May is rejected by Parliament - would we then simply default to a No Deal Brexit position?  I have heard ERG/hard Brexit-supporting politicians suggest that this would be the case.

The reason I ask is that there are others who suggest that, if the Chequers deal is rejected, it could bring down the government and force a General Election.  But how do they draw this conclusion?  What is the mechanism by which that would happen, and why could the Conservatives not just soldier on if that happened?

Thanks.  (More than one question there, I know.)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 10:39:08
I could see how a "no deal" would trigger Boris/JRM to mobilise a vote of no-confidence in May and make their play.

I could see how that would trigger a leadership contest.

I could see how that would cause calls of "no mandate to govern" from the opposition.

But like I can't see how it would de-facto bring down the Government, and I can't se it actually affecting Brexit unless there are legal methods to place us in limbo/get an extension until its resolved (which I guess may lead to a dissolving of the Tory/DUP alliance & depending on the N Ireland issue resolution).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 10:48:50
An argument was made on the Today Programme this morning that Brexit-supporting Tories who are minded to vote against the Chequers proposal may change their minds when confronted with the prospect of a Labour government (if Chequers is voted down).  I just can't see how that would come about.  Turkeys (Tories) tend not to vote for Christmas.  Must be missing something here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 10:50:54
I doubt there will be a push from Labour for a GE in the next 3-4 years, will be a poisoned chalice trying to sort out the shambles left by Brexit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 10:59:18
An argument was made on the Today Programme this morning that Brexit-supporting Tories who are minded to vote against the Chequers proposal may change their minds when confronted with the prospect of a Labour government (if Chequers is voted down).  I just can't see how that would come about.  Turkeys (Tories) tend not to vote for Christmas.  Must be missing something here.

There are so many what ifs at the moment, that it isn't really worth too much thought. I'm going to take it one game at a time... the EU Couincil meeting in a little over a week when countries can hear what Barnier has to say on negotiations and decide whether they can sign off a deal, is next up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 13:45:08
I have a question.  If, as seems probable, the Chequers deal advocated by Theresa May is rejected by Parliament - would we then simply default to a No Deal Brexit position?  I have heard ERG/hard Brexit-supporting politicians suggest that this would be the case.

The reason I ask is that there are others who suggest that, if the Chequers deal is rejected, it could bring down the government and force a General Election.  But how do they draw this conclusion?  What is the mechanism by which that would happen, and why could the Conservatives not just soldier on if that happened?

Thanks.  (More than one question there, I know.)


You are correct in the assertion that no deal is the default outcome. All we have to do to get no deal is nothing.

The actual mechanism that could cause the UK government to collapse is a vote of no confidence, which (if passed) would result in a general election. The Torys are extremely vulnerable to this due to the fact that they are running a minority government. They would need every Tory to vote against the motion - probably doable. BUT, they would also need their friends in the DUP to support them. Remember, a no deal brexit would cause a hard border between NI and the ROI which is a DUP red line, so there's no way they would vote with the Torys in this eventually.

That said, someone would still have to win the general election, and it's not clear what exactly would happen if Brexit day come by while we had no government... my guess is legally we would leave with no deal but the EU may choose to extend article 50 to see what happens in the election.

Even if this came to pass, I'm still unclear on what the options would be. The Torys would no doubt trigger a leadership contest, then stand on either remain or leave depending on who wins. Labour would probably stand on either leave or a people's vote deal, and Lib Dems would obviously be remain. Who wins int his scenario? My guess is we get another minoriyt government and the country is still split down the middle.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 14:31:35
The way things are looking at the moment I’ll be heading out of the UK again around Brexit time.

Last season attending the CG! 😢


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 16:21:31
The way things are looking at the moment I’ll be heading out of the UK again around Brexit time.

Last season attending the CG! 😢

Will you? will you really leave the UK just to wear a blue beret with gold starts on it.
Give that great europhile Richard Branson a call and live with him in the EU.
Oh I forgot, he likes it for us but not himself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 16:27:43
Fuck all to do with Brexit. My grandson and family are moving to Greece. Gotta go too!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 16:33:04
You are correct in the assertion that no deal is the default outcome. All we have to do to get no deal is nothing.

The actual mechanism that could cause the UK government to collapse is a vote of no confidence, which (if passed) would result in a general election. The Torys are extremely vulnerable to this due to the fact that they are running a minority government. They would need every Tory to vote against the motion - probably doable. BUT, they would also need their friends in the DUP to support them. Remember, a no deal brexit would cause a hard border between NI and the ROI which is a DUP red line, so there's no way they would vote with the Torys in this eventually.

That said, someone would still have to win the general election, and it's not clear what exactly would happen if Brexit day come by while we had no government... my guess is legally we would leave with no deal but the EU may choose to extend article 50 to see what happens in the election.

Even if this came to pass, I'm still unclear on what the options would be. The Torys would no doubt trigger a leadership contest, then stand on either remain or leave depending on who wins. Labour would probably stand on either leave or a people's vote deal, and Lib Dems would obviously be remain. Who wins int his scenario? My guess is we get another minoriyt government and the country is still split down the middle.

Brilliant.  Thank you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, October 9, 2018, 17:52:11
Fuck all to do with Brexit. My grandson and family are moving to Greece. Gotta go too!
How sad I do feel for you. On one hand you'll miss following STFC.
On the other you'll have to put up with lovely weather, good cheap food and wine.
Sounds like a rock & a hard place.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 07:01:49
How sad I do feel for you. On one hand you'll miss following STFC.
On the other you'll have to put up with lovely weather, good cheap food and wine.
Sounds like a rock & a hard place.

He’s got Ifollow for that? ;) good luck Audrey with your move, the wife and I are probably going to do the same when our working careers come to an end (hopefully sooner rather than later!)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 07:03:37
I like how the DUP line in the sand is not just a red one.
It's 'blood red'.

Presumably Fenian blood would be the preference but Tory blood would do if it came down it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 09:25:59
He’s got Ifollow for that? ;) good luck Audrey with your move, the wife and I are probably going to do the same when our working careers come to an end (hopefully sooner rather than later!)

Audrey is, of course, exercising his right to freedom of movement, which if memory serves he voted to remove for the likes of you and yours in the coming years.  Got to get in quick, only 6 months left before the likely no deal Brexit.

Interestingly, I see HMG is recruiting for staff to its RED dept.... Resilience and Emergency Division, who will be tasked with trying to mitigate the likely negative consequences of Brexit.  Not the sort of COYR, I want to see.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 09:51:40
I like how the DUP line in the sand is not just a red one.
It's 'blood red'.

Presumably Fenian blood would be the preference but Tory blood would do if it came down it.

Similar to mad Arlene keep wittering on about it being unacceptable for NI to have differing rules to the rest of the UK, rather forgetting its apparently entirely acceptable when it applies to abortion, gay rights etc?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 09:59:18
Similar to mad Arlene keep wittering on about it being unacceptable for NI to have differing rules to the rest of the UK, rather forgetting its apparently entirely acceptable when it applies to abortion, gay rights etc?

Wonder what they're like on fracking..... Ireland I believe has a ban, like Germany.  The Tories are currently looking to change the rules on earthquakes, whereby if fracking produces a ruimble on the Richter scale operations have to stop. They think it's too low.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 12:14:53
And as if by magic, the DUP are now threatening to vote against the upcoming budget.

https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1049992948321046533


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 12:30:15
And as if by magic, the DUP are now threatening to vote against the upcoming budget.

https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1049992948321046533

It would be funny if it were not for the fact that it was £1bn of our money she pissed up the wall to buy them off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 12:37:47
I doubt they are spending it given that Stormont hasn't been in session for 2 years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 12:40:18
I doubt they are spending it given that Stormont hasn't been in session for 2 years.
I am sure the DUP have managed to squirrel it away somewhere, they are pretty good with money when it suits them (see the energy scheme and their spending during the ref...)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 12:56:29
And Ian Paisley Jr's holidays!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, October 11, 2018, 12:27:06
DUP hotting up the pressure on May. She's really not too great at this politics lark. Still, who could've predicted that her uneasy alliance with a group of religious nutters might not work out?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45818777


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 11, 2018, 13:00:38
DUP hotting up the pressure on May. She's really not too great at this politics lark. Still, who could've predicted that her uneasy alliance with a group of religious nutters might not work out?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45818777

The fact that Esther McVey is considered as the cream and thus good enough to occupy a cabinet position tells you everything you need to know about this government....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, October 11, 2018, 21:54:52
The fact that Esther McVey is considered as the cream and thus good enough to occupy a cabinet position tells you everything you need to know about this government....

I raise you Diane Abbott...


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, October 12, 2018, 06:08:45
I fold, all I've got is a nadine dorries, and nobody is stupid enough to put her anywhere near the cabinet/Shadow cabinet alumni.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, October 12, 2018, 06:25:11
I fold, all I've got is a nadine dorries, and nobody is stupid enough to put her anywhere near the cabinet/Shadow cabinet alumni.

I raise you again, two jags Prescott. Now we could do this all day. What this does show is that on both sides of the house there are MP’s who you end up scratching your head over, either their position of actually managing to get selected and elected and then attaining a position as a minister.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, October 12, 2018, 07:01:36
Your opponent folded so need to raise again! ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 17, 2018, 15:38:00
Wonder what they're like on fracking..... Ireland I believe has a ban, like Germany.  The Tories are currently looking to change the rules on earthquakes, whereby if fracking produces a ruimble on the Richter scale operations have to stop. They think it's too low.

See that the fracking 3 have been immediately released on appeal.... this is good.  

A certain irony that with the release of Mike Leigh's film on the Peterloo Massacre imminent, it's worth remembering that such long held rights such as peaceful protest, were not easily won and not to be taken for granted.  There is a need for vilgilance.

Of course it, shouldn't be thought that this is some sort of victory, that will only happen when fracking is banned as it is in Germany etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, October 17, 2018, 17:20:18
Completely agree.  But we can't stop there.

Vaccinations; Do we really want our children sprouting animal parts?

Mobile phones; How many planes falling out of the sky and hospital equipment grinding to a halt will it take until these telephonic madmen come to their senses?

Horseless carriages; it is a FACT that the human brain explodes at speeds above 25mph.

Let's get back to gentler, happier times where mankind's advancement is determined by unsubstantiated hearsay rather than tedious scientific research.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, October 18, 2018, 09:43:35
Fracking releases natural gas, one of the cleaner fossil fuels but it's still a fossil fuel. Why are we ramping fossil fuel collection at the same time as reducing subsidies on renewables?

The "tedious scientific research" that climate scientists have done has concluded that we have around 12 years to prevent a temperature rise of 2.0C.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, October 18, 2018, 10:52:58
Yes it's madness not to be doing everything we can to be growing our production of the sustainable clean energy that we are going to need to avoid destroying our planet. We should also be doing a lot more to reduce our level of demand for that energy. 

But everyone (I think) recognises that we cannot eliminate our need for fossil fuel at this point.  And from an ecological, financial and political viewpoint I'd rather get that fuel from Lancashire than Russia.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, October 18, 2018, 17:28:47
Yes it's madness not to be doing everything we can to be growing our production of the sustainable clean energy that we are going to need to avoid destroying our planet. We should also be doing a lot more to reduce our level of demand for that energy. 

But everyone (I think) recognises that we cannot eliminate our need for fossil fuel at this point.  And from an ecological, financial and political viewpoint I'd rather get that fuel from Lancashire than Russia.

This.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, October 18, 2018, 17:54:02
Will be interesting to see Middle England up in arms if fracking becomes reality in the Home Counties.
Appendages set in concrete might not be just a Northern thing.

Suspect that the reality of test drilling, if it happens across the country, will end up falling some way short of potential though.

Our most precious resource will be water.
Squirting loads of it into rock strata might end up to be counter productive in the future.

Just knew that the failed sedimentology module of my geology degree would come in handy one day.  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, October 18, 2018, 19:59:51
Oh and I wouldn't trust fracking to ever be properly regulated in this country.
The pound signs will always come before a community having its water supply contaminated.

There is a good reason why some countries have banned fracking in mainland Europe.

Seems a better long term bet to insist, via legislation, that all new developments are configured to allow for the placement of solar panels on every roof.
This would take advantage of our upcoming long hot summer's.
Would be even better if developer pays was applied as well.
Grabbing fuckers.

Even the Russkis and the all important Saudis would struggle to claim mineral rights from the sun.
The current sun king in the Whitehouse might send a manned mission to plant the flag and claim ownership though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, October 19, 2018, 08:05:03
Yes it's madness not to be doing everything we can to be growing our production of the sustainable clean energy that we are going to need to avoid destroying our planet. We should also be doing a lot more to reduce our level of demand for that energy. 

But everyone (I think) recognises that we cannot eliminate our need for fossil fuel at this point.  And from an ecological, financial and political viewpoint I'd rather get that fuel from Lancashire than Russia.

I complete agree that we need to reduce our dependancy, I just don't agree that fracking is the best way to do that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 13:01:50
This feels significant.  Calls already for Brexit to be put on hold until the extent of the allegations are known.

Arron Banks Faces Brexit Referendum Spending Probe (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46056337)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 13:08:36
This feels significant.  Calls already for Brexit to be put on hold until the extent of the allegations are known.

Arron Banks Faces Brexit Referendum Spending Probe (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46056337)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4uivPpzCGo


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 13:09:16
I have every confidence it'll quickly be swept under the carpet/findings delayed until after Brexit depending on the seriousness of the allogations.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 13:42:59
This feels significant.  Calls already for Brexit to be put on hold until the extent of the allegations are known.

Arron Banks Faces Brexit Referendum Spending Probe (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46056337)
I hope it is significant in the sense that the scrote gets a long overdue comeuppance. But the calls to put Brexit on hold are just clutching at straws. The vote's been done, there were lies and deceit on both sides, as in all elections (albeit on a grander scale with some), overturning it now would just play into the hands of the likes of Banks


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 14:07:53
This feels significant.  Calls already for Brexit to be put on hold until the extent of the allegations are known.

Arron Banks Faces Brexit Referendum Spending Probe (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46056337)
loosers clutching at straws,remian were worse but their friends at the electoral commission will not investigate. I remember STFC lost to Brighton in a playoff penalty shoot out. Perhaps they spent more on their squad than STFC so that should be re-run.The bbc get 20 million per year from the EU and are not a reliable news source for that reason. Yada yada yada cliff edge,second ref, let eu citizens and children vote next time. You lost get over it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 14:12:00
Just so the loosers know their being played they might want to read this.
https://order-order.com/2018/09/14/high-court-finds-electoral-commission-unfit-purpose/
Only the high court. Cliff edge,Cliff edge,peoples vote, we've been robbed,give kids a vote ,the bbc said it ssoo it must be true.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 14:13:06
It’s not the electoral commission who are investigating him


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 14:14:08
'loosers'

 :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 14:24:30
The bbc get 20 million per year from the EU and are not a reliable news source for that reason. Yada yada yada cliff edge,second ref, let eu citizens and children vote next time. You lost get over it!

Subsequently we're still waiting for the £350m+ that was promised by Leave campaigners, to the NHS. This was influential in many voters decision to 'vote leave', especially if they were a tad "on the fence".

I agree though, the remain vote lost and now the government has to act like a jolly responsible bunch of adults and sort this shitstorm out. However they have something like 5 months left to do so and have pretty much done fuck all. Except maybe passed the buck around several times and played the blame game. You know, like fucking kids in a playground do.

Surely if people can't agree on the EU referendum then they can agree that, as the days tick on, this becomes more and more frustrating, regardless of how one voted.

I voted remain. Probably not a shock but I've been pretty fed up of the constant "Remoaner" tag that many idiotic leave voters keep spewing out. If people want that level of debate then I suggest they either go back to infant school or get a job in parliament.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 14:37:03
Don’t really buy into the argument that the result should stand if it is found that leave propaganda was funded from illegal sources. I don’t see how you can have trust in the democratic system if that is the case (and a part of me thinks that was the Intention all along)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 14:51:09
I don't buy into it either and if other results have been down to cheating then they to should be rerun because they are also void. A bit late to do much about those in the past but people should stop accepting cheating, especially on the basis that 'everybody does it'. How is that a valid reason?

...It isn't, that's how. I'm surprised so many people use it. It's something that the likes of Trump would come out with.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 15:11:52
I would be more inclined to accept the 'let's move on' argument if the margin of victory for Leave was such that Arron's alleged electoral naughtiness could not have affected the overall result.  If the Leave/Remain split was 65:35, for example, you could argue quite reasonably that the alleged cheating was inconsequential.

But the actual 52:48 split was much more even.  For every 27 voters, 14 voted Leave and 13 Remain.  It was a narrow win.  And if there was illegality, the validity of the result has to be questioned.  It's a horrible, painful matter to address - but you have to address it head on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 15:13:07
'loosers'

 :hmmm:

There was a famous group in history who used similar terminology to describe those who dared to disagree with them....  :hmmm:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dq3PLw2W4AIvCsE.jpg:large)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 15:13:51
The bbc get 20 million per year from the EU and are not a reliable news source for that reason. Yada yada yada cliff edge,second ref, let eu citizens and children vote next time. You lost get over it!

Yeah that renown pro EU BBC.....

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Do50__-W0AAl5Bi.jpg:large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 15:15:33
It’s not the electoral commission who are investigating him

I don't think facts hold much sway in SRK's universe.

If Banks has done something illegal he should feel the full force of law, his wrist will have a nasty wheal for 10 minutes, however it doesn't mean the vote should be taken again.

I mean Gideon has just fessed up that perhaps he and his Old Etonian buddy fucked up a bit over this, admitting they'd failed to explain to the public just how much the economy was dependent on belonging to the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 15:24:07
If Banks has done something illegal he should feel the full force of law, his wrist will have a nasty wheal for 10 minutes, however it doesn't mean the vote should be taken again.

I mean Gideon has just fessed up that perhaps he and his Old Etonian buddy fucked up a bit over this, admitting they'd failed to explain to the public just how much the economy was dependent on belonging to the EU.

Not sure what you're getting at with that, though - because while that was careless, it wasn't illegal.  Neither was the Soros donation that Banks referred to in his response today, because the donation was not made during an election campaign.

If Banks or any of the campaigns that he was associated with has broken the law, the credibility of the referendum result is called in to question.  If he is found to be guilty, the clear up process might be every bit as divisive as the referendum itself - and possibly more so.  But that is not a reason to shy away from doing that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 15:48:10

But everyone (I think) recognises that we cannot eliminate our need for fossil fuel at this point.  And from an ecological, financial and political viewpoint I'd rather get that fuel from Lancashire than Russia.
From a fossil point viewpoint and certainly a defensive viewpoint, I'd rather not have to rely on Lancashire


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 15:48:18
Not sure what you're getting at with that, though - because while that was careless, it wasn't illegal.  Neither was the Soros donation that Banks referred to in his response today, because the donation was not made during an election campaign.

If Banks or any of the campaigns that he was associated with has broken the law, the credibility of the referendum result is called in to question.  If he is found to be guilty, the clear up process might be every bit as divisive as the referendum itself - and possibly more so.  But that is not a reason to shy away from doing that.

You're showing your true LibDem tendencies here both sides lied, both sides bent the laws to get their message out. However people voted on how they interpreted those messages. Rightly or wrongly it happened and isn't going to unhappen, we get on with it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 16:08:51
I'm genuinely surprised at how unconcerned some people are about alleged illegal interference in the electoral process.  No one disputes that 'it happened', but when 'it' = a narrow victory for a campaign that is deemed to have broken the law...what does that actually mean?  'They're all at it really' is a rubbish justification for looking the other way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 16:39:53
I'm genuinely surprised at how unconcerned some people are about alleged illegal interference in the electoral process.

Cos they 'won'......?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 16:53:07
I'm genuinely surprised at how unconcerned some people are about alleged illegal interference in the electoral process.  No one disputes that 'it happened', but when 'it' = a narrow victory for a campaign that is deemed to have broken the law...what does that actually mean?  'They're all at it really' is a rubbish justification for looking the other way.

Our democracy has always been corrupt.... it's just about degrees of corruption. So Banks can't stick Putin's roubles into Brexit voters bank accounts, but he can arrange a bus with a big lie written on the side.

It's a bit like our Parliament can grant itself an estimated 4BN to tart up the Palace of Westminster... without consulting the people. Further these things like the New White Hart Lane are always over budget.  Why not reform Parliament, to make it fit for our times, and stick a purpose built facility on a trading estate somewhere in the Midlands.

Part of the reform would be getting shot of the unelected Lords, where 100 Lib Dems sit for their dozen MP's. Of course it won't happen... dear old Willaim Cobbett would tell you why.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 16:59:22
loosers clutching at straws,remian were worse
Are you actually a native English speaker?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 17:04:12
An election result can never be dismissed even if obtained on the back of illegality


Except there are many precedents for this, most recently in Kenya and Austria.  So it can and does happen.

The hypothetical question of what remedy would be appropriate if the referendum majority were found to have been obtained on the back of illegality would be determinable by a Court of law.

This is not about he lied, she lied in the rough and tumble of an election campaign.  It's about illegality, alleged illegality.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 17:21:13
Not sure what you're getting at with that, though - because while that was careless, it wasn't illegal.  Neither was the Soros donation that Banks referred to in his response today, because the donation was not made during an election campaign.

If Banks or any of the campaigns that he was associated with has broken the law, the credibility of the referendum result is called in to question.  If he is found to be guilty, the clear up process might be every bit as divisive as the referendum itself - and possibly more so.  But that is not a reason to shy away from doing that.
You are of course right. But the consequences of overturning the result could be worse than going through with it. The far right would have a field day, further strengthening the inroads they have made with the marginalised by being able to point to this as further evidence that the establishment has corrupted the system against them. As I said earlier, I'm not that convinced that Banks et al were really that interested in Brexit per se, it was more about being able to carve out a space for the far right. Something they succeeded in far beyond their wildest dreams. And no, I don't mean that anyone who vote for Brexit is of the far right or motivated by that. But the whole debacle has given the extremists a platform and an impetus they could only previously dream of, thanks in large part to the dogwhistle politics of Johnson et al, the appalling bigotry of some of the rightwing tabloids and the craven "Must give them equal air time" approach of the BBC to extremists of both the far right and Islamist moulds. It's a fucking shambles.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 19:04:42
Don’t really buy into the argument that the result should stand if it is found that leave propaganda was funded from illegal sources. I don’t see how you can have trust in the democratic system if that is the case (and a part of me thinks that was the Intention all along)
So when Ted took us into the EU and said they'd be no loss of sovereignty,when he knew full well there would be, he wasn't cheating?When John Major hid the facts of the Maastricht Treaty from Parliment that wasn't cheating? When Moron Brown signed the lesbian treaty without consent of the people further enslaving the uk that wasn't cheating. Maybe that wasn't cheating,maybe its just plain dictatorship. That's what communist thinking quislings prefer, the truth as lies and lies as the truth just as long as someone at the top tells them so. Funny how during all these events we never had a referendum and now we have and it didn't go the elites, way we got to have another one."the peoples vote" yeah right what a bunch of easily led saps.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 19:58:37
So when Ted took us into the EU and said they'd be no loss of sovereignty,when he knew full well there would be, he wasn't cheating?When John Major hid the facts of the Maastricht Treaty from Parliment that wasn't cheating? When Moron Brown signed the lesbian treaty without consent of the people further enslaving the uk that wasn't cheating. Maybe that wasn't cheating,maybe its just plain dictatorship. That's what communist thinking quislings prefer, the truth as lies and lies as the truth just as long as someone at the top tells them so. Funny how during all these events we never had a referendum and now we have and it didn't go the elites, way we got to have another one."the peoples vote" yeah right what a bunch of easily led saps.

There has been no loss of sovereignty to the EU, rather a pooling of some bits of sovereignty. It's rather like we pool our sovereignty over defence to NATO, which effectively means the US.

I'll challenge you to name one area where the EU has imposed on the UK, something that our politicians/civil service didn't want.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 20:12:15
There has been no loss of sovereignty to the EU, rather a pooling of some bits of sovereignty. It's rather like we pool our sovereignty over defence to NATO, which effectively means the US.

I'll challenge you to name one area where the EU has imposed on the UK, something that our politicians/civil service didn't want.
Our political class and civil servant are mostly EU funded nutters, they would agree to anything by the EU, but to answer your question and its going to hurt..."More than 50,000 EU laws introduced in the UK over last 25 years highlights scale of challenge facing lawmakers following ‘Brexit" so they've imposed legal rquirements on the UK. How's that made you think again? No thought not keep speaking the rullling classes words.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 20:14:26
There was a famous group in history who used similar terminology to describe those who dared to disagree with them....  :hmmm:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dq3PLw2W4AIvCsE.jpg:large)


A brain washed Left wing Nazi calling others a Nazi, oh the Irony. My family is Jews so suck on that you self righteous Nazi.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 20:18:49
Our political class and civil servant are mostly EU funded nutters, they would agree to anything by the EU, but to answer your question and its going to hurt..."More than 50,000 EU laws introduced in the UK over last 25 years highlights scale of challenge facing lawmakers following ‘Brexit" so they've imposed legal rquirements on the UK. How's that made you think again? No thought not keep speaking the rullling classes words.

Reg did say "...something that our politicians/civil service didn't want." but you seem to have let that important point go over your troll sized head.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 20:22:01
So when Ted took us into the EU and said they'd be no loss of sovereignty,when he knew full well there would be, he wasn't cheating?When John Major hid the facts of the Maastricht Treaty from Parliment that wasn't cheating? When Moron Brown signed the lesbian treaty without consent of the people further enslaving the uk that wasn't cheating.
Think you missed RedRag's very good point
This is not about he lied, she lied in the rough and tumble of an election campaign.  It's about illegality, alleged illegality.
The examples you cite are, you allege, examples of politicans lying or bending the truth. The allegations against Banks are of actual criminality. There's a difference


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 20:22:41
Our political class and civil servant are mostly EU funded nutters, they would agree to anything by the EU, but to answer your question and its going to hurt..."More than 50,000 EU laws introduced in the UK over last 25 years highlights scale of challenge facing lawmakers following ‘Brexit" so they've imposed legal rquirements on the UK. How's that made you think again? No thought not keep speaking the rullling classes words.

As I said we pooled our sovereignty in certain areas, this has largely been beneficial, it's why we chose to goi down that route. May said some time ago that all the EU agreed laws will pass back into UK law on Brexit, and then can be scrutinisd and unpicked if required.  It's mostly things like agreed food standards and environmental standards.... these are not things which will change much on Brexit, as we'll need to stay aligned in order to carry on trading.

It's rather like the outbreak of BSE in UK cattle some years back... the EU imposed a ban on the export of UK beef, it lasted 10 years until our vets could show cattle were now clear. I guess in your head that's an example of EU imposition, which with Brexit we can ignore and flog burgers that can kill. Even with EU standards yoiu can still get things like the horse meat scandal, where products labelled as beef contained horse meat, and it seemed a Euro wide practice, but with strong links to the RoI.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 20:26:13
An election result can never be dismissed even if obtained on the back of illegality


Except there are many precedents for this, most recently in Kenya and Austria.  So it can and does happen.

The hypothetical question of what remedy would be appropriate if the referendum majority were found to have been obtained on the back of illegality would be determinable by a Court of law.

This is not about he lied, she lied in the rough and tumble of an election campaign.  It's about illegality, alleged illegality.

Well there is a precedent, which is the Tories' illegal overspending in Thanet to deny Farage a seat in 2015. They have been found guilty of breaking electoral law and fined for doing so, but the result stands and Mackinlay is still the sitting MP. However, he is also now on trial for the same offence, be interesting to see what happens if he is personally found guilty:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46059598


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 20:28:49
Not just that, but every time you do a deal with another country or bloc, you'll cede a bit of sovereignty.  Trade deal with the US?  You'll cede sovereignty to the US.  'Take back control' is bullshit.  We'll be the junior partner in any deal made with the US, China, India, EU etc.  There goes your sovereignty.  It's deeply depressing that so many fell for this nonsense.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 20:44:25
Not just that, but every time you do a deal with another country or bloc, you'll cede a bit of sovereignty.  Trade deal with the US?  You'll cede sovereignty to the US.  'Take back control' is bullshit.  We'll be the junior partner in any deal made with the US, China, India, EU etc.  There goes your sovereignty.  It's deeply depressing that so many fell for this nonsense.

Taking back sovereignty is a catchy line though, it sounds important even if it's bullshit.

You could argue that we should take back control of football from FIFA, as it's our game, we invented it, however we chose to pool sovereignty, and got a global game out of it. The soft power bit, which we're now incidentally throwing away with the EU, is that we got to keep a 50/50 UK voting position on IFAB, football's law making body


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 21:18:16
Taking back sovereignty is a catchy line though, it sounds important even if it's bullshit.

You could argue that we should take back control of football from FIFA, as it's our game, we invented it, however we chose to pool sovereignty, and got a global game out of it. The soft power bit, which we're now incidentally throwing away with the EU, is that we got to keep a 50/50 UK voting position on IFAB, football's law making body
Peter Shore put it correctly in 1975 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoO6146qM5g
A nation which takes laws from other, non elected rulers, isn't a country its a Legislative Region.
Football is a game a county is very different.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 21:29:11
A nation which takes laws from other, non elected rulers, isn't a country its a Legislative Region.

Except one nation didn't take laws from another...

If you're referring to the EU, which works like a democratic council. That isn't a nation either. It's an economic bloc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 21:31:00
More importantly, when are all the expats in Spain moving back?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 21:31:36
Peter Shore put it correctly in 1975 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoO6146qM5g
A nation which takes laws from other, non elected rulers, isn't a country its a Legislative Region.
Football is a game a county is very different.
I'd always regarded France and Germany as countries rather than regions, myself.  Thanks for pointing out my error.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 21:36:04
As it happens the EU has been an unqualified success.  This must be longest period where no European country has been at ware with another since, well, for a long old time, which was the founding reason.  You achieve that by tying the countries up in knots together - we all rely on each other for economic and social success.  So what if a bunch of sensible laws were passed during that period, better to get decent water quality than bombing each other.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 21:38:25
Peter Shore put it correctly in 1975 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoO6146qM5g
A nation which takes laws from other, non elected rulers, isn't a country its a Legislative Region.
Football is a game a county is very different.

But we don't, not having been invaded since 1066.

The challenge is still open to you, can you name one instance of where the EU has imposed on our sovereignty, without our Parliament's agreement.

Another example of pooled sovereignty is the Council of Europe, which administers the ECHR, there are 47 countries in the this including Russia. It developed after WW II as it was realised that as European states, we shared more than divided us, and this supranatioinal body might help avoid future European conflicts, by upholding an agreed definition of humanity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, November 1, 2018, 21:40:42
More importantly, when are all the expats in Spain moving back?

Good news for all the Greasy Spoons back in Blighty, except sources say that there may well be a sausage shortage and we'll have to import more of the Spanish type of cured sausage. Oh the irony!  :pint:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 2, 2018, 01:15:06
As it happens the EU has been an unqualified success.  This must be longest period where no European country has been at ware with another since, well, for a long old time, which was the founding reason.  You achieve that by tying the countries up in knots together - we all rely on each other for economic and social success.  So what if a bunch of sensible laws were passed during that period, better to get decent water quality than bombing each other.

Well not quite accurate, the dissolution of the former Yugoslavia into its historic warring parts, is still a source of concern, as is the whole question of Eastern Europe, and if the notions of western social democracy fit. However not our concern any longer having opted out of having any influence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, November 2, 2018, 03:27:04
They were not in the EU


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, November 2, 2018, 09:16:47
I've always been a stats man, so here's my favourite brexit stats:

People keep referring to the brexit bus in the past tense, but actually 42% of Britons still believe the brexit bus myth (lie!)

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/public-wrong-key-facts-around-brexit-and-impact-eu-membership

The UK government have been on the winning side of EU law maing votes 95% of the time:

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 2, 2018, 10:12:56
Good news for all the Greasy Spoons back in Blighty, except sources say that there may well be a sausage shortage and we'll have to import more of the Spanish type of cured sausage.
tbf, you wouldn't want one that was still poorly :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 2, 2018, 10:35:10
Doesn't he need to be elected as an MP first....

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/78B8/production/_104140903_the-sun-front-page-02.11.18.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 2, 2018, 10:35:42
They were not in the EU

Quote
This must be longest period where no European country has been at ware with another

Nevertheless European as per quote. The EU gave rapid accession to Slovenia and Croatia after the break up of Yugoslavia, and getting Serbia in is an aim.  However old emnities die hard in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, and things are a long way from being settled.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 2, 2018, 10:53:44
Doesn't he need to be elected as an MP first....

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/78B8/production/_104140903_the-sun-front-page-02.11.18.jpg)

Could be made a Lord.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, November 2, 2018, 11:01:21
Could be made a Lord.

And most ex-PMs are, to be 'fair'. Nobody has yet fancied the controversy of enobling Blair mind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 2, 2018, 11:08:45
Could be made a Lord.

When was the last time that one of the 4 major posts was held by someone not sitting as an MP, whilst its historically possible I cannot see it being acceptable to the public these days, and we all know how important the will of the people is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 2, 2018, 11:10:41
A brain washed Left wing Nazi calling others a Nazi, oh the Irony. My family is Jews so suck on that you self righteous Nazi.

I honestly do not know where to begin.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, November 2, 2018, 11:19:31
Cameron must know that his legacy is a car crash.  He wants an opportunity to repair some of the damage before the history books are written.  I'd be surprised if he manages it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 2, 2018, 11:21:57
Cameron must know that his legacy is a car crash.  He wants an opportunity to repair some of the damage before the history books are written.  I'd be surprised if he manages it.

12 months ago I would have been confident that the Tories would never touch him due to his toxicity, however their ability to completely misjudge the public mood makes me considerably less confident in that position now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, November 2, 2018, 11:24:32
When was the last time that one of the 4 major posts was held by someone not sitting as an MP, whilst its historically possible I cannot see it being acceptable to the public these days, and we all know how important the will of the people is.

Lord Carrington as foreign sec under Thatcher, I believe. So not recently at all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 2, 2018, 11:32:03
Lord Carrington as foreign sec under Thatcher, I believe.
And that went well. Would be quite amusing if Cameron did get away with it in a desperate attempt to salvage his "legacy" and then fucked it up even more. Although it's difficult to see what he could do that would be even more calamitous than his last stab at it, but I'm sure he'd find something, the Eton fuckwit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 2, 2018, 11:34:30
These cunts are so out of touch that I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't feel he fucked it up


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 2, 2018, 13:07:33
tbf, you wouldn't want one that was still poorly :)

No one wants a poorly sausage  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 12:04:02
Makes you proud don't it....

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/un-extreme-poverty-expert-to-examine-effect-of-austerity-on-uks-poorest_uk_5be02238e4b01ffb1d040dc1?fbclid=IwAR2MwEWO0Okf4dzRV_yFd6Njt4DTXYCbhjQWX_VcC2nCb7yGJEeQKtuafB0


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 14:41:53
Makes you proud don't it....

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/un-extreme-poverty-expert-to-examine-effect-of-austerity-on-uks-poorest_uk_5be02238e4b01ffb1d040dc1?fbclid=IwAR2MwEWO0Okf4dzRV_yFd6Njt4DTXYCbhjQWX_VcC2nCb7yGJEeQKtuafB0
The huffington post! Jesus Crist what's wrong with you. It a George Soros funded, global commie, fake news rag for teens and students. The UN is also a global commie organisation which keeps send their people to the UK to talk us down.
But if that makes you proud?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 15:04:39
The huffington post! Jesus Crist what's wrong with you. It a George Soros funded, global commie, fake news rag for teens and students. The UN is also a global commie organisation which keeps send their people to the UK to talk us down.
But if that makes you proud?
Is his post incorrect then? Are they not investigating it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 16:15:19
Is his post incorrect then? Are they not investigating it

I still cannot place my finger on a reason why people have no problem with Banks using money of various dubious sources yet Soros is always singled out for abuse?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 16:33:03
I still cannot place my finger on a reason why people have no problem with Banks using money of various dubious sources yet Soros is always singled out for abuse?
Soros is a Jewish liberal, double anathema for the far right

EDIT: you were being sarcy weren't you? Wooosh!  :headhurts:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 16:35:25
The huffington post! Jesus Crist what's wrong with you. It a George Soros funded, global commie, fake news rag for teens and students. The UN is also a global commie organisation which keeps send their people to the UK to talk us down.
But if that makes you proud?

You do realise that the entire concept of Communism and Globalism are at complete odds with each other, right?  There is either a conspiracy to turn us all into Communists - i.e., all sharing equally in the wealth and means of production, or the conspiracy is that an Elite exists to control funds and Govt's globally to ensure their form of Capitalism wins out, breaking down international borders and Govt.s to dampen wage demands and ensure goods and services retain the highest margins possible enriching those that own the means of production.  They are literally opposite ends of a spectrum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 16:37:08
You do realise that the entire concept of Communism and Globalism are at complete odds with each other, right?  There is either a conspiracy to turn us all into Communists - i.e., all sharing equally in the wealth and means of production, or the conspiracy is that an Elite exists to control funds and Govt's globally to ensure their form of Capitalism wins out, breaking down international borders and Govt.s to dampen wage demands and ensure goods and services retain the highest margins possible enriching those that own the means of production.  They are literally opposite ends of a spectrum.
I don't think logically seeing through an argument is srk's strong point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 16:39:28
It turns out that I am a radical communist over here - because I like the NHS.  It helps that I probably stole someone's job as well.  Nasty Communist Immigrant trying to turn the USA into Venezuela from the inside!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 16:41:45
Soros is a Jewish liberal, double anathema for the far right

EDIT: you were being sarcy weren't you? Wooosh!  :headhurts:

I dunno what you mean, I similarly struggle with the abuse that Diane Abbot gets - she is a total numbnuts but no worse than 10's of other MP's yet she seems a target for many?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 16:43:04
I think she deserves the abuse, just because others don't get the abuse they deserve, doesn't make it wrong.a


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 18:31:32
I think she deserves the abuse
I'm assuming you're referring to the general insults, not the racist death threats?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 19:20:33
Of course.  She is an oddity - I kind of liked her on the Politcs show she was on, but I also liked Michael Portillo on that.  He sounded pretty reasonable, which I simply couldn't square with his political career!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, November 7, 2018, 06:54:57
I know you're being flippant, but no one deserves that level of abuse for simply doing their job. Not even Swindon players.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, November 7, 2018, 07:37:55
Diane Abbott is a high ranking member of the opposition and was initially very prominent in labours election campaign. That she came across as a simpleton unable to communicate basic facts and unable to cope with public debate was always going to lead to ridicule.

that Labour removed her from the firing line speaks volumes.

it's not like Boris Johnson, Theresa May and the like get away with it while people pick on Abbott is it.

The Tory equivalent I suppose is Nadine Dorries, who is genuinly stupid. But being away from the front line means she avoids the level of attention that Abbott gets .

Racism, death threats and the like I personally see as a separate issue.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 7, 2018, 09:28:16
but I also liked Michael Portillo on that.  He sounded pretty reasonable, which I simply couldn't square with his political career!

Having done some TV work with Portillo  :nod: he was a generally nice bloke during the afternoon we spent together (shocking pink shirt aside!)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, November 7, 2018, 18:01:38
Having done some TV work with Portillo  :nod: he was a generally nice bloke during the afternoon we spent together (shocking pink shirt aside!)


Did he brush your hair?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 8, 2018, 17:41:33
 See the fella who replaced Davis as Brexit wallah, Raab, admitted in a speech that he hadn't quite understood that so much of our trade passed through Dover.   :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 8, 2018, 19:32:49
See the fella who replaced Davis as Brexit wallah, Raab, admitted in a speech that he hadn't quite understood that so much of our trade passed through Dover.   :)
It's almost as if they haven't got the first fucking clue what they're doing!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, November 9, 2018, 09:42:50
Dominic Raab, looking up with a fevered expression, "YOU MEAN, WE'RE THE FUCKING ISLAND??!!"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, November 9, 2018, 10:08:04
Slowly, the penny starts to drop.

We will do a deal with the EU, because there is no alternative to that.  (Contrary to the Brexit bullshit we've had to listen to for several years now, we need them way more than they need us.)  And the terms of deal?  The terms will be whatever the EU decides they will be.  It's called realpolitik.

I'm weary of this nonsense now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 9, 2018, 10:14:55
Slowly, the penny starts to drop.

We will do a deal with the EU, because there is no alternative to that.  (Contrary to the Brexit bullshit we've had to listen to for several years now, we need them way more than they need us.)  And the terms of deal?  The terms will be whatever the EU decides they will be.  It's called realpolitik.

I'm weary of this nonsense now.

Its going to BINO, which will make no one happy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, November 9, 2018, 15:46:44
Dominic Raab, looking up with a fevered expression, "YOU MEAN, WE'RE THE FUCKING ISLAND??!!"
Not our problem, mate.

"Fog in Channel.  Continent cut off
."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 9, 2018, 16:19:38
 See that Johnson's bro has resigned as Transport Minister over Brexit.  He thinks May's deal will leave the UK significantly worse off with no say in what happens in the EU..... JRM's vassal state, or in a state of chaos, if it's no deal. He intends to campaign for a second referendum, so that the electorate can ratify what they want.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 9, 2018, 16:28:56
See that Johnson's bro has resigned as Transport Minister over Brexit.  He thinks May's deal will leave the UK significantly worse off with no say in what happens in the EU..... JRM's vassal state, or in a state of chaos, if it's no deal. He intends to campaign for a second referendum, so that the electorate can ratify what they want.

https://medium.com/@JoJohnsonUK/why-i-cannot-support-the-governments-proposed-brexit-deal-3d289f95f2bc


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, November 9, 2018, 16:32:23
https://twitter.com/RachelSJohnson/status/1060925600683175939

Christmas dinner at the Johnsons' could be fun


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 9, 2018, 18:42:44
Dominic Raab, looking up with a fevered expression, "YOU MEAN, WE'RE THE FUCKING ISLAND??!!"

Apparently Civil Servants refer to him as Raab C. Brexit  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, November 9, 2018, 18:47:06
What annoys me (wrong thread?) is this use of "vassal state".

A vassal state was a weaker state that would be obligated to support the pre-eminent state in supporting military campaigns.  This is a pseudo-educated phrase misapplied.

The only recent example of the UK acting as a "vassal state" was the Iraq War with the unelected (in the UK) George Bush directing one man, Tony Blair and a few of his appointees.

The basic problem is that there never was a single concept of Brexit.

Look at the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution etc.  Knew what they were against.  Rather painful and prolonged consequences searching for what they did want.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 13, 2018, 17:19:11
All hail May. She's solved it all

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46188790

;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, November 13, 2018, 17:19:55
Try getting that through the Commons, though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 13, 2018, 17:25:53
Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey
Try getting that through the Commons, though.


hence the ;) !!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Tuesday, November 13, 2018, 17:57:16
What annoys me (wrong thread?) is this use of "vassal state".

A vassal state was a weaker state that would be obligated to support the pre-eminent state in supporting military campaigns.  This is a pseudo-educated phrase misapplied.

The only recent example of the UK acting as a "vassal state" was the Iraq War with the unelected (in the UK) George Bush directing one man, Tony Blair and a few of his appointees.

The basic problem is that there never was a single concept of Brexit.

Look at the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution etc.  Knew what they were against.  Rather painful and prolonged consequences searching for what they did want.


Johnson has already used it in an early interview :-)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, November 13, 2018, 18:55:27
Watching Boris and Mogg attempting frantically to distance themselves from the shitfest that they created is a sight to behold.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 09:07:22
Sadly, I don't think it could. I was watching the classic SI clip below and thinking that there's no way they would be able to get away with it in 2018. We supposedly live in the most liberal, open and free speaking of times ever but that is just not the case these days. Effectively, everything we see, hear or read is unofficially censored by the keyboard warriors on Twitter and other social media who are just waiting, trigger fingers poised, to be OFFENDED...

Further to this a while back.... a little something

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/nov/14/spitting-image-creator-says-times-are-right-for-us-revival


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 09:26:23
Watching Boris and Mogg attempting frantically to distance themselves from the shitfest that they created is a sight to behold.

Watching Johnson and Mogg banging on about Mays deal resulting a loss of sovereignty, after the majority of their campaign in 2016 being based upon the fact that within the EU we didn't actually have sovereignty, but no one will notice eh....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 09:35:32
Watching Johnson and Mogg banging on about Mays deal resulting a loss of sovereignty, after the majority of their campaign in 2016 being based upon the fact that within the EU we didn't actually have sovereignty, but no one will notice eh....

We're now approaching the end game... the likes of Mogg, Johnnson and the DUP are going to have to put up or shut up.

 If they put up, then the logic is a change of leadership for the Tories and a General Election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 09:41:29
So is it like the Tory Hunger Games now then?

Place your bets on the number of ministerial resignations.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 09:49:18
So is it like the Tory Hunger Games now then?

Place your bets on the number of ministerial resignations.
:clap: :clap: Yes . Best way to describe it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 09:49:51
She's really selling this isn't she...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46203425

'the prime minister would seek to head off the threat of any resignations by telling her ministers that while not perfect, the agreement was as good as it can get.'

What happened to easiest deal ever?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 09:50:10
Johnson and Rees-Mogg are already starting to look diminished.  Months & months of carping and increasingly shrill newspaper articles...and no plan of their own, and no action.  They're spectators, just like the rest of us, and nothing more.  Always waiting for someone else to make the first move.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 09:53:36
Hmmm. Probably would have just been easier to remain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 10:13:27
Hmmm. Probably would have just been easier to remain.
That ma
She's really selling this isn't she...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46203425

'the prime minister would seek to head off the threat of any resignations by telling her ministers that while not perfect, the agreement was as good as it can get.'

What happened to easiest deal ever?
This has been a total fuckfest from day 1. The country being totally unprepared for a referendum. The Government making absolutely no plans for a leave vote. Cameron and Gideon then fucking off. May picking up the baton, triggering article 50 with indecent haste and no planning on the implications of what it meant. Then calling an election and fucking up any authority she had. We then enter negotiations and show how needy we are and in doing so have to take what were given.
All the EU had to do was sit tight, string us along and wait for the tide to turn in the UK. Job done.
If there was a second referendum, I think remain would win  - not necessarily that people think staying is right. It would be more on the basis of the total fuck up we've made of leaving.


 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 10:18:02
Amen to that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 10:20:29
That maThis has been a total fuckfest from day 1. The country being totally unprepared for a referendum. The Government making absolutely no plans for a leave vote. Cameron and Gideon then fucking off. May picking up the baton, triggering article 50 with indecent haste and no planning on the implications of what it meant. Then calling an election and fucking up any authority she had. We then enter negotiations and show how needy we are and in doing so have to take what were given.
All the EU had to do was sit tight, string us along and wait for the tide to turn in the UK. Job done.
If there was a second referendum, I think remain would win  - not necessarily that people think staying is right. It would be more on the basis of the total fuck up we've made of leaving.


I would agree with all that bar the bit about the EU stringing us along, they have been consistent in their approach since day 1 (funny that 27 countries seem to be able to align but we are being fucked over by the inability of one party to even be that cohesive) basically just given May a rope to climb out of the hole of her own parties making, and instead she has hung herself with all this bollocks about red lines, backing herself into a corner from which she cannot escape.

Its BINO, don't see any point in having an election as it would be all about Brexit yet it would be the pro Brexit Tories against the pro brexit Labour party.... Complete waste of time and cash.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 11:21:53
I would agree with all that bar the bit about the EU stringing us along, they have been consistent in their approach since day 1 (funny that 27 countries seem to be able to align but we are being fucked over by the inability of one party to even be that cohesive) basically just given May a rope to climb out of the hole of her own parties making, and instead she has hung herself with all this bollocks about red lines, backing herself into a corner from which she cannot escape.

Its BINO, don't see any point in having an election as it would be all about Brexit yet it would be the pro Brexit Tories against the pro brexit Labour party.... Complete waste of time and cash.

There would have to be an election as it would be about who governs the country.... last year May's Tory party was elected. If they can't run the country as mandated, then the electorate have to decide who should get the next opportunity.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 11:31:06
technically they didn't get an overall majority, thus further weakening the position and making a GE more likely.

i.e. even a united Tory party would could be hamstring by a united opposition.

(not that either side is united)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 11:41:31
technically they didn't get an overall majority, thus further weakening the position and making a GE more likely.

i.e. even a united Tory party would could be hamstring by a united opposition.

(not that either side is united)

No, but the way the system works the Tories did win.  Hammond's budget which bunged money at high earners, and a few quid for some paper, exercise books and erasers at schools, along with some dosh for pot hole filling.... was definitely formulated with an election in mind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 12:32:31
This has been a total fuckfest from day 1. The country being totally unprepared for a referendum. The Government making absolutely no plans for a leave vote. Cameron and Gideon then fucking off. May picking up the baton, triggering article 50 with indecent haste and no planning on the implications of what it meant. Then calling an election and fucking up any authority she had. We then enter negotiations and show how needy we are and in doing so have to take what were given.
All the EU had to do was sit tight, string us along and wait for the tide to turn in the UK. Job done.
If there was a second referendum, I think remain would win  - not necessarily that people think staying is right. It would be more on the basis of the total fuck up we've made of leaving. 
Interesting, as IIRC you voted leave didn't you? Looking back do you regret that? i.e. knowing what you know now (which no-one did at the time) do you think it was always going to turn out badly or do you feel it could/should have worked if it had been planned for and managed properly?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 12:34:40
Its BINO
I know I'm going to feel stupid when you tell me, but WTF is BINO?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 12:35:59
I know I'm going to feel stupid when you tell me, but WTF is BINO?

Brexit in name only


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 12:49:58
Brexit in name only
Thanks Reg!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 12:53:31
I still don't get why a good old Hard Brexit wasn't worked on - instead of all this pointless negotiating, just spend two years prepping for separation.

If the country voted to leave simply because someone painted a few words on the side of a bus and listened to a Millionaire sup a pint, it deserved to just take the pain of exit.  People were clearly not voting for the Bronze Membership Package downgrade form their current Platinum.  It wasn't too hard to think of the impact of exit and weight that up against the cozy feeling of having some other people run the country for you that you hate just as much.  So we have to accept people preferred that shit vs. what they saw as the status quo shit.

In the same way we had no right to moan about the direction the EU had taken - tough shit if you didn't read up on the plans before voting to join.

Moral of the story, you'll get what you deserve as a collective.  We've chosen to go solo, just get on with it.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 12:54:37
if you are in charge and  believe hard brexit would knacker the country, you'd be violating your responsibilities as leader to push for hard brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 12:55:24
I still don't get why a good old Hard Brexit wasn't worked on - instead of all this pointless negotiating, just spend two years prepping for separation.

If the country voted to leave simply because someone painted a few words on the side of a bus and listened to a Millionaire sup a pint, it deserved to just take the pain of exit.  People were clearly not voting for the Bronze Membership Package downgrade form their current Platinum.  It wasn't too hard to think of the impact of exit and weight that up against the cozy feeling of having some other people run the country for you that you hate just as much.

In the same way we had no right to moan about the direction the EU had taken - tough shit if you didn't read up on the plans before voting to join.

Moral of the story, you'll get what you deserve as a collective.  We've chosen to go solo, just get on with it.
If the current fuck-up isn't an urgent call to greatly increase the amount of money we spend on secondary education, particularly History, then I don't know what is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 12:56:42
if you are in charge and  believe hard brexit would knacker the country, you'd be violating your responsibilities as leader to push for hard brexit.
But it's just as irresponsible not to prepare for the eventuality. As it is, we don't seem to have prepared for anything. Can we still hang Farage and Johnson for treason?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 12:57:42
And I speak from a country that can't even figure out how to count a vote.  Some of the Counties had over six pages of things to vote on at the same time!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 12:59:37
Quote from: pauld
Quote
if you are in charge and  believe hard brexit would knacker the country, you'd be violating your responsibilities as leader to push for hard brexit.
But it's just as irresponsible not to prepare for the eventuality. As it is, we don't seem to have prepared for anything. Can we still hang Farage and Johnson for treason?

if you believe the government, they are preparing for it (yeah right).

but not pushing for it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 13:00:30
if you are in charge and  believe hard brexit would knacker the country, you'd be violating your responsibilities as leader to push for hard brexit.

Not when that was clearly what people voted for.  We gave the people a choice, they made it.  We abstained from making such complex decisions in the existing electoral process, giving the People the reigns.  The People voted to get out, so just get out.  Prep for that as your primary focus - of course see if the EU will offer any nice customer retention bonuses, but be prepared to fuck off.  That was the Govt. responsibility.  Unfair on May because Cameron should have been doing it, but she took the job.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 13:02:21
Oh, and if they ever did decide to go for a 2nd Referendum it should be on a) Hard Brexit, no deals) b) Brexit with the deal on offer.  Staying should not be an option, not for at least another 5 years or so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 13:03:40
But it's just as irresponsible not to prepare for the eventuality. As it is, we don't seem to have prepared for anything. Can we still hang Farage and Johnson for treason?

We have prepared.... originally Davis claimed to have lost the impact studies, but then found them, they're the ones about turning the M26 into lorry park, stockpiling food and getting the military involved...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 13:04:29
Not when that was clearly what people voted for. 

Its anything but clear. Its only a 2% swing to equality in the vote. I bet 2% didn't want hard brexit once they knew the consequences.

A weak win is a win but what do you reckon "the will of the people" would now be between May's compromise, Remain or Hard Brexit?

I'm not suggesting we will hold ref #2. But a compromise deal was always the likely outcome.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 13:06:01
If people voted leave but were not clear on the terms they'd be happy with, tough shit.  To me, the vote was always skewed more towards Remain than it should have been because of that fear of the economic impact.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 13:08:50
But it's just as irresponsible not to prepare for the eventuality. As it is, we don't seem to have prepared for anything. Can we still hang Farage and Johnson for treason?

if you believe the government, they are preparing for it (yeah right).

but not pushing for it.
I don't
We have prepared.... originally Davis claimed to have lost the impact studies, but then found them, they're the ones about turning the M26 into lorry park, stockpiling food and getting the military involved...
Sorry, I meant preparing properly and in detail to make the best of it. Not just "We'd best have something on the back of an envelope in case it goes to shit, what do you mean most of our trade with Europe goes through Dover?" cobbled together panic measures


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 13:09:46
I still don't get why a good old Hard Brexit wasn't worked on...

Because there is no mandate for one.  If you ask a binary Remain vs Leave question and the votes come back in a 52:48 ratio, no-one in their right mind would interpret such a result by implementing the most extreme, separatist version of Leave.

I hope we've learned a few lessons about referenda from this debacle.  A vote that's 52% in favour of anything is not a ringing endorsement.  It's a signal that the electorate, collectively, does not know what it wants.  One way or another, a 52% vote in favour of anything will result in a miserable, fudged compromise that pleases no-one.  And this is precisely what is unfolding in front of us at the moment.

If, in future, a government ever decides to hold a referendum again on an important matter, it had better be sure that the winning side wins at least 60% of the vote.  Anything closer than 60:40 condemns us to endlessly revisiting the argument.  For all the talk of 'bringing the country together', this is now pretty much impossible.  Not sure that these divisions will ever heal - at least in my lifetime.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 13:10:22
Nev from The Call Centre should have been put in charge


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 13:11:32
Because there is no mandate for one.  if you ask a binary Remain vs Leave question and the votes come back in a 52:48 ratio, no-one in their right mind would interpret such a result by implementing the most extreme, separatist version of Leave.
Well I think some of the Brexiteers on here would and Rees Mogg definitely does. Oh sorry, you said no-one in their right mind. As you were :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 13:13:05
Because there is no mandate for one.  if you ask a binary Remain vs Leave question and the votes come back in a 52:48 ratio, no-one in their right mind would interpret such a result by implementing the most extreme, separatist version of Leave.

I hope we've learned a few lessons about referenda from this debacle.  A vote that's 52% in favour of anything is not a ringing endorsement.  It's a signal that the electorate, collectively, does not know what it wants.  One way or another, a 52% vote in favour of anything will result in a miserable, fudged compromise that pleases no-one.  And this is precisely what is unfolding in front of us at the moment.


If, in future, a government ever decides to hold a referendum again on an important matter, it had better be sure that the winning side wins at least 60% of the vote.  Anything closer than 60:40 condemns us to endlessly revisiting the argument.  For all the talk of 'bringing the country together', this is now pretty much impossible.  Not sure that these divisions will ever heal - at least in my lifetime.

I would argue that more of the 48% would have agreed to leave if you offered up a mid way option, like we seem to be trying to finish on.  I do not think many of the 52% would have voted for that mid way option though.  Everyone I know who voted Leave did so expecting a complete exit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 13:16:32
I would argue that more of the 48% would have agreed to leave if you offered up a mid way option, like we seem to be trying to finish on.  I do not think many of the 52% would have voted for that mid way option though.

Only one way to find out, I guess.

Everyone I know who voted Leave did so expecting a complete exit.

Interesting.  I have he opposite experience.  Several friends who were adamant that leaving would still mean we could stay in the Single Market.  (Customs Union was not discussed to the same degree, if I remember rightly.)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 13:32:38
 I've said before the logic of the out vote was that we leave the lot.... it was understood at the time, and voted for. Further it was understood there would be an economic hit...  the length not really diiscussed but later JRM reckoned 50 years.

 The likely break up of the Union wasn't fully understood, but opinion polls have suggested that the English are not concerned about this, and in many cases are happy about it.... ceratainly had the Scots Ref been open to English voters they'd have probably got independence.

 As a Remainer, I accept I have 2 choices... leave the country as several friends and family have... or get on with it.  I'm in the latter group, now looking at a hard Brexit as a means of reordering our society on more socialist lines.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 14:16:17
I've said before the logic of the out vote was that we leave the lot.... it was understood at the time, and voted for. Further it was understood there would be an economic hit...  the length not really diiscussed but later JRM reckoned 50 years.

 The likely break up of the Union wasn't fully understood, but opinion polls have suggested that the English are not concerned about this, and in many cases are happy about it.... ceratainly had the Scots Ref been open to English voters they'd have probably got independence.

 As a Remainer, I accept I have 2 choices... leave the country as several friends and family have... or get on with it.  I'm in the latter group, now looking at a hard Brexit as a means of reordering our society on more socialist lines.

Have to disagree fundamentally with the point in bold.  I think we've been over this before.  The Leave premise was understood in different ways by different people, as I see it.  It's part of the reason why we're currently in the mess that we're in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 14:23:57
The likely break up of the Union wasn't fully understood, but opinion polls have suggested that the English are not concerned about this, and in many cases are happy about it.... ceratainly had the Scots Ref been open to English voters they'd have probably got independence.

That's not strictly correct, it was fairly clear that a) Scotland was remain and b) it would provide pennies from heaven for the SNP and other nationalists if they voted to stay but the overall was remain. I have a number of Scottish friends who all voted to stay in the union when they had their referendum but have gone completely the other way now, ironic that the Conservative and Unionist Party will facilitate the break up, but so be it. 

As a Remainer, I accept I have 2 choices... leave the country as several friends and family have... or get on with it.  I'm in the latter group, now looking at a hard Brexit as a means of reordering our society on more socialist lines.

As I assume you are retired its somewhat easier to get on with it compared with those who have been sold a pup and now find their jobs at risk and their kids futures uncertain. As for any idea of socialist reordering you are as naive as McDonnell and Corbyn, jobs will be lost at the bottom end, employment protects scrapped, its fairly clear that the Tory model is some manner of European Singapore (although even their president thinks we are mental), that hardly socialism is it? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 14:25:39
If people voted leave but were not clear on the terms they'd be happy with, tough shit.  To me, the vote was always skewed more towards Remain than it should have been because of that fear of the economic impact.

Serious question, are you planning to come back to the UK?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 14:35:16
Not anytime soon, unless work has other ideas!

I've made it very clear my views or more Pro EU than the majority.  I also think I know where the country really lies on this subject.  Will life be better economically outside the EU, I doubt it very much, would a UK being solo stop me from living there, absolutely not.  I live 10 miles away from a sign that advertises for people joining the Confederate Sons of the South - madness is everywhere.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 14:42:00
As for any idea of socialist reordering you are as naive as McDonnell and Corbyn, jobs will be lost at the bottom end, employment protects scrapped, its fairly clear that the Tory model is some manner of European Singapore (although even their president thinks we are mental), that hardly socialism is it? 
As Farage, Banks et al start to peddle the narrative of "Brexit betrayed" to the people who voted for their horseshit and who will suffer worst under it, national socialism is a more likely beneficiary.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 14:42:57
I live 10 miles away from a sign that advertises for people joining the Confederate Sons of the South - madness is everywhere.
I hope you've been out and spray painted a massive cock and balls on it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 14:46:32
I hope you've been out and spray painted a massive cock and balls on it?

They have guns, I tend to head North more and pretend I am part of Atlanta.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 15:10:46
That's not strictly correct, it was fairly clear that a) Scotland was remain and b) it would provide pennies from heaven for the SNP and other nationalists if they voted to stay but the overall was remain. I have a number of Scottish friends who all voted to stay in the union when they had their referendum but have gone completely the other way now, ironic that the Conservative and Unionist Party will facilitate the break up, but so be it. 

As I assume you are retired its somewhat easier to get on with it compared with those who have been sold a pup and now find their jobs at risk and their kids futures uncertain. As for any idea of socialist reordering you are as naive as McDonnell and Corbyn, jobs will be lost at the bottom end, employment protects scrapped, its fairly clear that the Tory model is some manner of European Singapore (although even their president thinks we are mental), that hardly socialism is it? 

It will be up to individuals to view the changes sprung by Brexit as they see fit... the future is uncertain Brexit or no Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 15:50:18
It will be up to individuals to view the changes sprung by Brexit as they see fit... the future is uncertain Brexit or no Brexit.

Thanks Theresa.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 16:06:58
...but I thought Brexit meant Brexit?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 16:21:40
...but I thought Brexit meant Brexit?

Geopolitical reality dawns.  Brexit means taking back giving up control.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 16:31:41
Geopolitical reality dawns.  Brexit means taking back giving up control.

I know, I was just quoting our dearly beloved Theresa  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 16:35:46
No need to be nostalgic for the EU just yet.

It looks like Tessie's Deal will enable the Brit Press to CONTINUE to distract us with fake news and EuroMYTHS, enabling politicians to build whole careers on misconceptions:

EC regulations to ban playgrounds – Daily Express
Rolling acres outlawed by Brussels – The Telegraph
EU to scrap British exams – Sunday Express
Obscure EU law halting the sale of English oak seeds – Mail on Sunday
EU may try to ban sweet and toy ads – The Times
EU to tell British farmers what they can grow – Daily Mail
EU ‘Bans Boozing’ – Daily Star
Light ale to be forced to change its name by Eurocrats – Daily Mail
EU fanatics to be forced to sing dire anthem about EU ‘Motherland’ – The Sun
British apple trees facing chop by EU – The Times
EC plan to ban noisy toys – Sunday People
EU to ban bagpipes and trapeze artists – The Sun
Children to be banned from blowing up balloons, under EU safety rules – Daily Telegraph
Straight cucumbers – The Sun
Curved bananas banned by Brussels bureaucrats – The Sun, Daily Mail, Daily Express
Brussels bans barmaids from showing cleavage – The Sun, Daily Telegraph
Rumpole’s wig to scrapped by EU – Mail on Sunday
Church bells silenced by fear of EU law – Daily Telegraph
Motorists to be charged to drive in city centres under EU plans – Daily Telegraph
EU to stop binge drinking by slapping extra tax on our booze – The Sun
Brandy butter to be renamed ‘brandy spreadable fat’ – The European
British loaf of bread under threat from EU – Daily Mail
Truckers face EU ban on fry-ups – The Sun
EU to ban Union Flag from British meat packs – Daily Express
EU seeks to outlaw 60 dog breeds – Europa News Agency
Double-decker buses to be banned – Daily Telegraph
EU bans eating competition cakes – Timesonline
Now EU officials want control of your CANDLES – Daily Express
21-gun salutes are just too loud, Brussels tells the Royal Artillery – Mail on Sunday
Brussels threatens charity shops and car boot sales – Daily Mail
Plot to axe British number plates for standardised EU design – Daily Express
Women to be asked intimate details about sex lives in planned EU census – Daily Express
British cheese faces extinction under EU rules – PA News
EU meddlers ban kids on milk rounds – The Sun, The Telegraph
British chocolate to be renamed ‘vegelate’ under EU rules – Daily Mail
EU to ban church bells – Daily Telegraph
British film producers warn of new EU threat to industry – The Independent
Kilts to be branded womenswear by EU – Daily Record
EU to ban double decker buses – Daily Mail
Cod to be renamed ‘Gadus’ thanks to EU – Daily Mail
Brussels to restrict drinking habits of Britain’s coffee lovers – Daily Express
EU responsible for your hay fever – Daily Mail, The Times
Condom dimensions to be harmonised – Independent on Sunday
EU wants to BAN your photos of the London Eye – Daily Express
Corgis to be banned by EU – Daily Mail
EU forcing cows to wear nappies – Daily Mail
Eurocrats to ban crayons and colouring pencils – The Sun
Smoky bacon crisps face EU ban – Sunday Times
EU outlaws teeth whitening products – Daily Mail
Domain names – ‘.uk’ to be replaced by ‘.eu’ – Daily Mail
Brussels to ban HGV drivers from wearing glasses – The Times
New eggs cannot be called eggs – Daily Mail
EU to ban selling eggs by the dozen – Daily Mail
UK to be forced to adopt continental two pin plug – Daily Star, Daily Mail
EU targets traditional Sunday roast – Sun on Sunday
English Channel to be re-named ‘Anglo-French Pond’ – Daily Mail
Brussels to force EU flag on England shirts – Daily Mail
EU orders farmers to give toys to pigs – The Times
Firemen’s poles outlawed by EU – Daily Mail
Euro ban on food waste means swans cannot be fed – The Observer
Noise regulations to force football goers to wear earplugs – The Sun
Traditional Irish funeral under threat from EU – Daily Telegraph, The Times
EU to ban high-heel shoes for hairdressers – Daily Express
Commission to force fishermen to wear hairnets – Daily Telegraph
Brussels to ban herbal cures – Daily Express
Bureaucrats declare Britain is “not an island”– the Guardian
EU bid to ban life sentences for murderers – Daily Express
New EU map makes Kent part of France – Sunday Telegraph
EU tells Welsh how to grow their leeks – The Times
EU to ban lollipop ladies’ sticks – News of the World
EU plot to rename Trafalgar Square & Waterloo station – Daily Express
UK milk ‘pinta’ threatened by Brussels – The Sun
EU bans ‘mince’ pies – Daily Mail
Eurocrats say Santa must be a woman – The Sun
Now EU crackpots demand gypsy MPs – Daily Express
Brussels to outlaw mushy peas – The Sun, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Times
Brussels says shellfish must be given rest breaks on journeys – The Times
Pets must be pressure cooked after death – Sunday Telegraph
EU puts speed limit on children’s roundabouts – Daily Express
2-for-1 bargains to be scrapped by EU – Daily Mirror
EU madness: chat up bar girl and pub will be fined – Daily Star
Queen to be forced to get her own tea by EU – The Sun
EU tells women to hand in worn-out sex toys – The Sun
British rhubarb to be straight – The Sun
EU to ban rocking horses – The Sun
Scotch whisky rebranded a dangerous chemical by EU – Daily Telegraph
Brussels ban on pints of shandy – The Times
“High up” signs to be put on mountains – BBC
Euronotes cause impotence – Daily Mail
EU to ban under 16-year-olds from using Facebook – Daily Mail
Strawberries must be oval – The Sun
EU orders swings to be pulled down – Daily Express
Tea bags banned from being recycled – BBC
British lav to be replaced with Euro-loo – The Sun
Unwanted Valentine’s cards to be defined as sexual harrasment – Daily Telegraph
Bosses to be told what colour carpets to buy by EU – Daily Star
EU says British yoghurt to be renamed ‘Fermented Milk Pudding’ – Sunday Mirror
EU to ban zipper trousers – The Sun

nicked off LBC site


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 17:54:26
No need to be nostalgic for the EU just yet.

It looks like Tessie's Deal will enable the Brit Press to CONTINUE to distract us with fake news and EuroMYTHS, enabling politicians to build whole careers on misconceptions:

EC regulations to ban playgrounds – Daily Express
Rolling acres outlawed by Brussels – The Telegraph
EU to scrap British exams – Sunday Express
Obscure EU law halting the sale of English oak seeds – Mail on Sunday
EU may try to ban sweet and toy ads – The Times
EU to tell British farmers what they can grow – Daily Mail
EU ‘Bans Boozing’ – Daily Star
Light ale to be forced to change its name by Eurocrats – Daily Mail
EU fanatics to be forced to sing dire anthem about EU ‘Motherland’ – The Sun
British apple trees facing chop by EU – The Times
EC plan to ban noisy toys – Sunday People
EU to ban bagpipes and trapeze artists – The Sun
Children to be banned from blowing up balloons, under EU safety rules – Daily Telegraph
Straight cucumbers – The Sun
Curved bananas banned by Brussels bureaucrats – The Sun, Daily Mail, Daily Express
Brussels bans barmaids from showing cleavage – The Sun, Daily Telegraph
Rumpole’s wig to scrapped by EU – Mail on Sunday
Church bells silenced by fear of EU law – Daily Telegraph
Motorists to be charged to drive in city centres under EU plans – Daily Telegraph
EU to stop binge drinking by slapping extra tax on our booze – The Sun
Brandy butter to be renamed ‘brandy spreadable fat’ – The European
British loaf of bread under threat from EU – Daily Mail
Truckers face EU ban on fry-ups – The Sun
EU to ban Union Flag from British meat packs – Daily Express
EU seeks to outlaw 60 dog breeds – Europa News Agency
Double-decker buses to be banned – Daily Telegraph
EU bans eating competition cakes – Timesonline
Now EU officials want control of your CANDLES – Daily Express
21-gun salutes are just too loud, Brussels tells the Royal Artillery – Mail on Sunday
Brussels threatens charity shops and car boot sales – Daily Mail
Plot to axe British number plates for standardised EU design – Daily Express
Women to be asked intimate details about sex lives in planned EU census – Daily Express
British cheese faces extinction under EU rules – PA News
EU meddlers ban kids on milk rounds – The Sun, The Telegraph
British chocolate to be renamed ‘vegelate’ under EU rules – Daily Mail
EU to ban church bells – Daily Telegraph
British film producers warn of new EU threat to industry – The Independent
Kilts to be branded womenswear by EU – Daily Record
EU to ban double decker buses – Daily Mail
Cod to be renamed ‘Gadus’ thanks to EU – Daily Mail
Brussels to restrict drinking habits of Britain’s coffee lovers – Daily Express
EU responsible for your hay fever – Daily Mail, The Times
Condom dimensions to be harmonised – Independent on Sunday
EU wants to BAN your photos of the London Eye – Daily Express
Corgis to be banned by EU – Daily Mail
EU forcing cows to wear nappies – Daily Mail
Eurocrats to ban crayons and colouring pencils – The Sun
Smoky bacon crisps face EU ban – Sunday Times
EU outlaws teeth whitening products – Daily Mail
Domain names – ‘.uk’ to be replaced by ‘.eu’ – Daily Mail
Brussels to ban HGV drivers from wearing glasses – The Times
New eggs cannot be called eggs – Daily Mail
EU to ban selling eggs by the dozen – Daily Mail
UK to be forced to adopt continental two pin plug – Daily Star, Daily Mail
EU targets traditional Sunday roast – Sun on Sunday
English Channel to be re-named ‘Anglo-French Pond’ – Daily Mail
Brussels to force EU flag on England shirts – Daily Mail
EU orders farmers to give toys to pigs – The Times
Firemen’s poles outlawed by EU – Daily Mail
Euro ban on food waste means swans cannot be fed – The Observer
Noise regulations to force football goers to wear earplugs – The Sun
Traditional Irish funeral under threat from EU – Daily Telegraph, The Times
EU to ban high-heel shoes for hairdressers – Daily Express
Commission to force fishermen to wear hairnets – Daily Telegraph
Brussels to ban herbal cures – Daily Express
Bureaucrats declare Britain is “not an island”– the Guardian
EU bid to ban life sentences for murderers – Daily Express
New EU map makes Kent part of France – Sunday Telegraph
EU tells Welsh how to grow their leeks – The Times
EU to ban lollipop ladies’ sticks – News of the World
EU plot to rename Trafalgar Square & Waterloo station – Daily Express
UK milk ‘pinta’ threatened by Brussels – The Sun
EU bans ‘mince’ pies – Daily Mail
Eurocrats say Santa must be a woman – The Sun
Now EU crackpots demand gypsy MPs – Daily Express
Brussels to outlaw mushy peas – The Sun, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Times
Brussels says shellfish must be given rest breaks on journeys – The Times
Pets must be pressure cooked after death – Sunday Telegraph
EU puts speed limit on children’s roundabouts – Daily Express
2-for-1 bargains to be scrapped by EU – Daily Mirror
EU madness: chat up bar girl and pub will be fined – Daily Star
Queen to be forced to get her own tea by EU – The Sun
EU tells women to hand in worn-out sex toys – The Sun
British rhubarb to be straight – The Sun
EU to ban rocking horses – The Sun
Scotch whisky rebranded a dangerous chemical by EU – Daily Telegraph
Brussels ban on pints of shandy – The Times
“High up” signs to be put on mountains – BBC
Euronotes cause impotence – Daily Mail
EU to ban under 16-year-olds from using Facebook – Daily Mail
Strawberries must be oval – The Sun
EU orders swings to be pulled down – Daily Express
Tea bags banned from being recycled – BBC
British lav to be replaced with Euro-loo – The Sun
Unwanted Valentine’s cards to be defined as sexual harrasment – Daily Telegraph
Bosses to be told what colour carpets to buy by EU – Daily Star
EU says British yoghurt to be renamed ‘Fermented Milk Pudding’ – Sunday Mirror
EU to ban zipper trousers – The Sun

nicked off LBC site

You forgot the lies about an EU army that our grandchildren will be front rank cannon fodder in. Oh but wait a minute.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 18:12:46
The army (Intervention Force) our current elected officials agree is a good idea and were pushing you mean?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 18:39:17
Interesting, as IIRC you voted leave didn't you? Looking back do you regret that? i.e. knowing what you know now (which no-one did at the time) do you think it was always going to turn out badly or do you feel it could/should have worked if it had been planned for and managed properly?
Yep, I voted leave and would vote leave again. I have no regrets at all.
I said from day 1 we would not be allowed to leave and I still think it - there's still plenty of twists and turns to come.
It still believe it could well have worked but not now. It starts with Cameron and Gideon being complete fuckwits with no planning for a leave vote. They thought a Remain vote was a shoe in but misjudged badly. In fact, they handed it to leave by not selling the benefits and then bringing in a cast of doom mongers. Unfortunately for them they overplayed their hand.
Our starting position was shit, partly due to the lack of planning, partly due to triggering Article 50 too quickly. If I had any say in it, I'd have said leave was leave and told everyone to plan for it. I'd have put Farage in charge of negotiations. Behind the scenes, I'd be hoping for a deal but it would certainly put out a declaration of intent. Don't forget these are negotiations. Showing that we no plans for no deal meant we needed a deal and once this is your starting point, you are fucked. We showed we were needy and all the EU had to do was sit tight.
I would also have made a commitment to all EU nationals already here that they had the right to stay for life - this is regardless of what the EU want to do with ours. That should be separate to negotiations. I'd also ensure we paid up for things we had committed to prior to the decision to leave but I'd also be investigating whether we could reclaim  any assets.   
Most leavers I know are hard Brexit. I appreciate there will be many flavours of leavers just as there will be for remainers. Some would like the EU to reform, some are happier with a trading block but not political union. It was a 2 option referendum and I'd suggest a very big proportion were not at the extremes but had to jump off the fence one way or the other.
If we had a second referendum I'd expect Remain to win but not because they won the argument. It would be because the decision to leave and the absolute fuck up we've made of it become merged when they are two separate things.
Then we have Parliament and I can't see May getting anything through Parliament. Yet again the Government have fucked up here. Voting massively to devolve their powers to the electorate when the country wasn't and still isn't educated enough to vote on this. Also the fact that Parliament is disproportionate to the electorate on this issue is a recipe for disaster. So, whats the default - no deal, remain, election???
Nobody has the faintest fucking clue if Brexit will be good or bad - too many unknown variables. All we've got is opinions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 19:04:52
Yep, I voted leave and would vote leave again. I have no regrets at all.

It still believe it could well have worked but not now. It starts with Cameron and Gideon being complete fuckwits with no planning for a leave vote.

Chalkie, serious question mate. I know we had our democratic right to vote Leave or Remain. You're an intelligent (and passionate) man, it would come across. Why would you vote leave if you were aware that the government had no plan or idea in how to execute it?

I'm not picking at you, I think the result is as it is (I voted remain) and we (government) should have been working to create the best solution instead of passing the buck over nearly two years.

Obviously the remain element didn't need a plan because it would have likely been, to continue as before. I'm just curious that if you knew this, why (democratic right aside) vote for something you knew had no plan?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 19:17:03
cabinet have backed the draft, round 1 to may


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 19:21:44
Chalkie, serious question mate. I know we had our democratic right to vote Leave or Remain. You're an intelligent (and passionate) man, it would come across. Why would you vote leave if you were aware that the government had no plan or idea in how to execute it?

I'm not picking at you, I think the result is as it is (I voted remain) and we (government) should have been working to create the best solution instead of passing the buck over nearly two years.

Obviously the remain element didn't need a plan because it would have likely been, to continue as before. I'm just curious that if you knew this, why (democratic right aside) vote for something you knew had no plan?
Because I thought it was the right thing to do. I also thought leave meant leave. Cameron had made that clear numerous times. I genuinely thought it was an in or out vote. Once we voted to leave I thought we'd crack on. I knew there would be issues and had anticipated a transition period but wouldn't have triggered article 50 without a plan.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 19:43:47
Because I thought it was the right thing to do. I also thought leave meant leave. Cameron had made that clear numerous times. I genuinely thought it was an in or out vote. Once we voted to leave I thought we'd crack on. I knew there would be issues and had anticipated a transition period but wouldn't have triggered article 50 without a plan.

Appreciate your response. Cheers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 20:53:32
Because I thought it was the right thing to do. I also thought leave meant leave. Cameron had made that clear numerous times. I genuinely thought it was an in or out vote. Once we voted to leave I thought we'd crack on. I knew there would be issues and had anticipated a transition period but wouldn't have triggered article 50 without a plan.

Welcome back, John. Hope you're well mate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 08:38:51
Yep, I voted leave and would vote leave again. I have no regrets at all.
I said from day 1 we would not be allowed to leave and I still think it - there's still plenty of twists and turns to come.
It still believe it could well have worked but not now. It starts with Cameron and Gideon being complete fuckwits with no planning for a leave vote. They thought a Remain vote was a shoe in but misjudged badly. In fact, they handed it to leave by not selling the benefits and then bringing in a cast of doom mongers. Unfortunately for them they overplayed their hand.
Our starting position was shit, partly due to the lack of planning, partly due to triggering Article 50 too quickly. If I had any say in it, I'd have said leave was leave and told everyone to plan for it. I'd have put Farage in charge of negotiations. Behind the scenes, I'd be hoping for a deal but it would certainly put out a declaration of intent. Don't forget these are negotiations. Showing that we no plans for no deal meant we needed a deal and once this is your starting point, you are fucked. We showed we were needy and all the EU had to do was sit tight.
I would also have made a commitment to all EU nationals already here that they had the right to stay for life - this is regardless of what the EU want to do with ours. That should be separate to negotiations. I'd also ensure we paid up for things we had committed to prior to the decision to leave but I'd also be investigating whether we could reclaim  any assets.   
Most leavers I know are hard Brexit. I appreciate there will be many flavours of leavers just as there will be for remainers. Some would like the EU to reform, some are happier with a trading block but not political union. It was a 2 option referendum and I'd suggest a very big proportion were not at the extremes but had to jump off the fence one way or the other.
If we had a second referendum I'd expect Remain to win but not because they won the argument. It would be because the decision to leave and the absolute fuck up we've made of it become merged when they are two separate things.
Then we have Parliament and I can't see May getting anything through Parliament. Yet again the Government have fucked up here. Voting massively to devolve their powers to the electorate when the country wasn't and still isn't educated enough to vote on this. Also the fact that Parliament is disproportionate to the electorate on this issue is a recipe for disaster. So, whats the default - no deal, remain, election???
Nobody has the faintest fucking clue if Brexit will be good or bad - too many unknown variables. All we've got is opinions.
Cheers chalkies, as always a reasonable and well reasoned reply. That's why I asked you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: brocklesby red on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 08:56:34
So now Dominic Raab resigns. What a total and utter shambles


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 08:57:26
This is unreal


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 08:57:31
Dominic Raab resigns. Everything now starts to implode.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 08:57:45
So Raab C. Brexit has deserted the sinking ship, the comment regarding his good conscience made me titter a bit....

I assume that McVey is waiting instruction from her close friend IDS (she got to the top purely on merit you understand).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 09:02:57
So now Dominic Raab resigns. What a total and utter shambles
The government must be devastated to lose such an intellectual power house. tbf to Raab, he's still coming to terms with the shock of discovering that most of our trade with Europe goes via Dover and not the magic trade pixies as he'd previously assumed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 09:04:43
And some bloke called Shailesh Vara has gone too, N Ireland minister apparently (no I've never heard of him either)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 09:21:25
Can we officially upgrade from clusterfuck to omnishambles now?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 09:21:57
Rab C Exit (twitter)

I want to be next Brexit Secretary. Clearly if you don't agree with the deal you are notionally in charge of then you don't really do anything.

Therefore I intend to head to the south of France for 6 months and negotiate a friction-less trade of wine and good food into my mouth and wait for the whole thing to blow over. Can I have my expenses in Euros please.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 09:25:19
And some bloke called Shailesh Vara has gone too, N Ireland minister apparently (no I've never heard of him either)

I actually feel a bit sorry for the guy, he appears to have actually resigned last night but no one noticed and even today the MSM don't seem to be really reporting it....


I want to be next Brexit Secretary. Clearly if you don't agree with the deal you are notionally in charge of then you don't really do anything.


In essence he has resigned as he doesn't agree with something he negotiated, which is a particular mess to get oneself in.... He does appear to be not particularly bright, which says a lot about the quality of this government as he is being touted in parts as a challenger to May....

Interesting though...

"20m ago
09:04
Julia Finch
In the last few minutes, since news broke of Dominic Raab’s resignation, the pound has fallen sharply ... down more than 1% against the euro and the dollar - a big move. Against the euro it is now 1.1382 and against the dollar $1.2873. It was over $1.30 first thing this morning."


I am sure its entirely coincidental that he could have resigned last evening yet waited for the markets to open this morning and his backers to no doubt get their positions sorted before resigning...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 09:56:50
Going like ducks now, IDS has informed McVey that she can go now....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 09:59:30
In essence he has resigned as he doesn't agree with something he negotiated

He hasn't negotiated this new membership package, it was arranged by May,Merkel and Oilly Robbins.
It not a transition/leaving deal its a keeping the UK in the eu, this deal would expire 14 years after the vote to leave
So all you hive thinking remainiacs should be delighted we're stuck in the eu for ever,its BRINO.
Enjoy watching your grandchildren going off to serve in the new eu army. they'll have front row cannon fodder seats.
See how easily democracy dies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 10:05:22
So all you hive thinking remainiacs should be delighted we're stuck in the eu for ever,its BRINO.

Except now we've given away almost all of our say and our vito in exchange to control a vastly over egged immigration "problem" and to get a blue passport.

Nobody wins in Brexit. Sure that's obvious.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 10:13:14
Except now we've given away almost all of our say and our vito in exchange to control a vastly over egged immigration "problem" and to get a blue passport.

Nobody wins in Brexit. Sure that's obvious.

Interesting in the resignation letters that no one has actually suggested what should be done....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 10:23:19
Do, do do.. another two bite the dust...

Suella Braverman gone
Anne-Marie Trevelyan gone

This is becoming a habit..... (and I bet Corbyn is still behind in the polls!)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 10:24:29
how many is that now 4 or 5 or 6?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 10:28:25
how many is that now 4 or 5 or 6?

Its getting to 'will the last one out turn the lights off territory'...

The reshuffle should be interesting, and to think that people took the mickey and suggested Corbyn was not fir to lead as he struggled to find enough support to fill a front bench....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 10:29:36
Some quotes for those (RobertT) who think 52% voted for hard brexit.

     
Quote from: Daniel Hannan MEP
Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market


   
Quote from: Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer
Only a madman would actually leave the Market

   
Quote from: Nigel Farage, Ukip leader
Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing


   
Quote from: Matthew Elliot, Vote Leave chief executive
The Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initally attractive for some business people


   
Quote from: Arron Banks, Leave.EU founder
Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 10:29:37
Except now we've given away almost all of our say and our vito in exchange to control a vastly over egged immigration "problem" and to get a blue passport.

Nobody wins in Brexit. Sure that's obvious.

SRK has really lost the plot now.... I don't recall any of Gove, Johnson, Farage, Mogg etc saying at referendum time Vote Leave otherwise your grandchildren will be conscripted into an EU army.

The present undercurrent is that Hammond has bunged the military some extra in the budget, because of Putin, but also because of Trump.... it may no longer be sensible to see the US as an ally, therefore as UK and France have the largest military capablities in Western Europe, we should be looking to further align our interests with them.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/08/uk-france-relations-trump-report-brexit-nato


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 10:35:12
SRK has really lost the plot now.... I don't recall any of Gove, Johnson, Farage, Mogg etc saying at referendum time Vote Leave otherwise your grandchildren will be conscripted into an EU army.

The present undercurrent is that Hammond has bunged the military some extra in the budget, because of Putin, but also because of Trump.... it may no longer be sensible to see the US as an ally, therefore as UK and France have the largest military capablities in Western Europe, we should be looking to further align our interests with them.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/08/uk-france-relations-trump-report-brexit-nato

As anything to do with the EU army would be sanctioned by the elected members of the EU parliament I still don't really get the big fuss about it, in the majority of cases now our brave lads (C) the Sun are commanded by other Nato states anyway so bar a johnny foreigner argument it holds no water.

May wittering in the commons now, Gove and the Scottish Secretary missing from her support group so maybe a few more to go yet...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 10:38:00
Rab C Exit (twitter)

I want to be next Brexit Secretary. Clearly if you don't agree with the deal you are notionally in charge of then you don't really do anything.

Therefore I intend to head to the south of France for 6 months and negotiate a friction-less trade of wine and good food into my mouth and wait for the whole thing to blow over. Can I have my expenses in Euros please.

Well done Batch. You're catching on.  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 10:57:34
Well done Batch. You're catching on.  ;)

It'll be a bit of sacrifice, but I'm willing to make it. In fact, may try and get Brexit delayed until June/July. Nobody can be expected to (not) negotiate below 22C ambient.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 10:58:52
Some quotes for those (RobertT) who think 52% voted for hard brexit.
   

Theresa May doesn't agree with you, she stated in the Commons a minute ago

Quote from: Theresa May
Jeremy Corbyn wants to stay in the EU's customs union and single market, but this "would not deliver" on the referendum result from 2016.
          



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 11:57:53
Its getting to 'will the last one out turn the lights off territory'...

The reshuffle should be interesting, and to think that people took the mickey and suggested Corbyn was not fir to lead as he struggled to find enough support to fill a front bench....
TBF the fact that May clearly cannot lead, doesn't mean that Corbyn can


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 12:00:50
The lack of opposition adds to the farce.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 12:02:24
It'll be a bit of sacrifice, but I'm willing to make it. In fact, may try and get Brexit delayed until June/July. Nobody can be expected to (not) negotiate below 22C ambient.
Sorry Batch but your ability to sit straight on a toilet seat and actually differentiate your arse from your elbow rule you out on grounds of being far too competent for the post.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 12:06:17
The lack of opposition adds to the farce.

Labour is clear on the issue. 6 tests which will have to be met for Labour to support or reject the deal....

1. Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU?

2. Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?

3. Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities?

4. Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom?

5. Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime?

6. Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 12:07:38
Sorry Batch but your ability to sit straight on a toilet seat and actually differentiate your arse from your elbow rule you out on grounds of being far too competent for the post.

Damnit, you elbowhole


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 12:08:03
Sorry Batch but your ability to sit straight on a toilet seat and actually differentiate your arse from your elbow rule

You're assuming batch can actually do these things?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 12:10:17
You're assuming batch can actually do these things?

 :cunty:

:)

Wait, that means I can go to france.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 12:16:43
You're assuming batch can actually do these things?
Fair point. For the record, I have never seen Batch sit on the toilet, correctly or otherwise. And nor do I wish to do so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 12:18:38
Think I may need to hit Kefalonia before 30th March. I’ve got flights booked for 20th April.

What’s the end game here? May gets a no confidence vote. Does that trigger just a leadership election or a GE or both?

It seems obvious to me that the whole damn shebang will get kicked into the long grass.

Rees Mogg has been offered the Brexit Secretary job. Wtf!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 12:21:18
Think I may need to hit Kefalonia before 30th March. I’ve got flights booked for 20th April.

What’s the end game here? May gets a no confidence vote. Does that trigger just a leadership election or a GE or both?

It seems obvious to me that the whole damn shebang will get kicked into the long grass.
Just a leadership challenge


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 12:28:53
Think I may need to hit Kefalonia before 30th March. I’ve got flights booked for 20th April.

What’s the end game here? May gets a no confidence vote. Does that trigger just a leadership election or a GE or both?

It seems obvious to me that the whole damn shebang will get kicked into the long grass.

Rees Mogg has been offered the Brexit Secretary job. Wtf!

I think its just a leadership challenge, if there were a GE no idea who would win, the fact that Corbyn is still, on the whole, behind in the polls just shows how much the public have seen through him.

As for Rees-Mogg getting a cabinet position I wouldn't blame May, and hang the odious twat out to dry ASAP. However, I would be amazed if he took any cabinet roll as it would mean him actually taking responsibility for something and he doesn't do that.

I have no sympathy for May as she took the job, but ultimately she is being held to account for failing to deliver the impossible, which has been plainly clear for months if not years, yet other Tories have managed to persuade much of the public that the utopia they describe (but never describe a means of practically getting there) and now continue to beat May with this bollocks.

So no sympathy but she is stuck between a lot of duplicitous/thick MP's and reality.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 12:46:04
Rees Mogg has been offered the Brexit Secretary job. Wtf!
Where's that from? Telegraph and Beeb reporting Gove has been offered it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 12:53:26
Rees Mogg has been offered the Brexit Secretary job. Wtf!

Fake nooz!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 12:58:21
Where's that from? Telegraph and Beeb reporting Gove has been offered it?

Would explain why he has been missing all morning....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 13:05:22
He's just handed his letter in (on vellum, apparently) to the 1922 Committee.  If his acolytes follow, TM will be facing a leadership challenge very soon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 13:07:49
He's just handed his letter in (on vellum, apparently) to the 1922 Committee.  If his acolytes follow, TM will be facing a leadership challenge very soon.

Ut-oh. Imagine JRM, Gove or Boris taking the reigns. Dear lord.

Hope its defeated, but one assumes JRM has done the maths (or maybe its a protest strop).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 13:09:29
Ut-oh. Imagine JRM, Gove or Boris taking the reigns. Dear lord.

Hope its defeated, but one assumes JRM has done the maths (or maybe its a protest strop).

I think its a foregone conclusion that the vote will happen, I hope that May goes and JRM stands to expose the self centred arsehole to proper scrutiny, unless he has learnt the lessons of Loathsome?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 13:09:49
Seems he may be on his own, with other ERG members choosing not to follow.  They're genuinely worried that if a leadership challenge takes place & fails, that TM's position is then strengthened...and, with it, the Brexit deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 13:17:11
Seems he may be on his own, with other ERG members choosing not to follow.
More great leadership from the swivel eyed wing of the Tory Party. These fuckwits are beyond satire


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 13:29:10
Seems he may be on his own, with other ERG members choosing not to follow.  They're genuinely worried that if a leadership challenge takes place & fails, that TM's position is then strengthened...and, with it, the Brexit deal.

Ken Clarke has been saying that if they force the vote they won't win, I suspect many of us (me included) forget that there are actually a lot of Tory MP's silent on this matter who actually support May and would rather she lead than some manner of nut job veering evermore to the hard right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 13:30:20
The problem for the ERG is, if they force a VoNC in May and lose then she is protected for a year. Plenty long enough to push through her deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 13:37:23
Gove has affirmed his position as most spineless of the spineless cunt brigade by rejecting the offer to become brexit secretary


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 13:45:25
Gove has affirmed his position as most spineless of the spineless cunt brigade by rejecting the offer to become brexit secretary

Whilst I agree with your description he would be totally mental to take it, ultimately in the time available no new incumbent has the opportunity to do any better than this mess so all it would do is further damage his credibility (if that were possible).

If I were May I would offer it to Johnson next and then JRM just to show them for what they really are....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 13:54:32
Just give Brexit Secretary to Olly Robins


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 13:56:27
Look, we've already sorted this out. Batch is taking the post and will be delivering his first ministerial statement live from his toilet seat, once he has finished wiping his elbow


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 13:59:49
Look, we've already sorted this out. Batch is taking the post and will be delivering his first ministerial statement live from his toilet seat, once he has finished wiping his elbow
Presumably on a Friday. Wiping your elbow is a bit like buying a house.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 13:59:58
Just give Brexit Secretary to Olly Robins
What an unlected person running a government office on behalf of his friends in Brussels?
That's what he's been doing all along, he doesn't need to apply or be given the role, its his to do with what suits him best.
The wishes of the Uk people come second to the desires of this unelected europhile.
See how easily democracy dies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 14:41:34
What an unlected person running a government office on behalf of his friends in Brussels?
That's what he's been doing all along, he doesn't need to apply or be given the role, its his to do with what suits him best.
The wishes of the Uk people come second to the desires of this unelected europhile.
See how easily democracy dies.
I know. Its like the election that May fucked up - all run from her office. She obviously doesn't learn or take counsel.
This deal looks to me like Barnier told Robbins to sit down and take a note of what the EU want and then try and sell it to the UK public.
As a staunch Leaver, I'd rather stay in the EU than accept the pile of shit May has served up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 15:06:03
What an unlected person running a government office on behalf of his friends in Brussels?
That's what he's been doing all along, he doesn't need to apply or be given the role, its his to do with what suits him best.
The wishes of the Uk people come second to the desires of this unelected europhile.
See how easily democracy dies.

I can assume you just want complete separation, no plan (that can be worked out later)?  Just checking, it's what most people I know who voted leave want - regardless of what that means in terms of economics.  Take the pain that comes, if any, get out, and work it out later.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 15:35:21
I can assume you just want complete separation, no plan (that can be worked out later)?  Just checking, it's what most people I know who voted leave want - regardless of what that means in terms of economics.  Take the pain that comes, if any, get out, and work it out later.
Well I just checked the ballot paper and the choice I was given was stay as per dave's shitty deal or leave everything.
The majority won with leave everything choice but that's been ignored, for stay mark 2 which is such a bad deal we'll be asked if we want our original master servant arrangement back. Easy wasn't it make leaving look impossible and back in the fools go.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 15:40:17
We were the fucking masters you stupid fucking cunt


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 15:40:42
And now fucking look at us


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 15:56:54
What an unlected person running a government office on behalf of his friends in Brussels?
That's what he's been doing all along, he doesn't need to apply or be given the role, its his to do with what suits him best.
The wishes of the Uk people come second to the desires of this unelected europhile.
See how easily democracy dies.

I see Robins has now become the whipping boy to blame all brexiteers woes on, why do you constantly need someone else to blame and not take responsibility for what you voted for, own your shit?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 16:01:45
I see Robins has now become the whipping boy to blame or brexiteers woes on, why do you constantly need someone else to blame and not take responsibility for what you voted for?
We're not getting what the majority of us voted for! and as for that old political trick of moving the blame and responsibility away from those who should recieve it,  I can see through your game. Remainers have just sulked and obstucted the processs because it didn't go their way. Out means out as per the ballot paper no matter how many times some twat shouts cliff edge or any other arsehole soundbite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 16:02:23
All working out well isnt it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 16:09:06
We're not getting what the majority of us voted for! and as for that old political trick of moving the blame and responsibility away from those who should recieve it,  I can see through your game. Remainers have just sulked and obstucted the processs because it didn't go their way. Out means out as per the ballot paper no matter how many times some twat shouts cliff edge or any other arsehole soundbite.

Of course you're not.  Because you voted for unicorns, and they don't exist.  And now you're all chopsy because Theresa could't find your magical unicorns but, instead, has produced a knackered, flea-bitten pony.

The prospectus you voted for was never going to be delivered - because it was impossible to deliver.  The EU was always going to hold the cards.  Don't blame May for that.  Blame yourself.  You got sucked in, and fell for an unachievable pipedream.

As others have said, you & your fellow Leavers need to own this.  We've been warning you about this for 2½ years and, frankly, it's getting a little tedious now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 16:10:27
We're not getting what the majority of us voted for! and as for that old political trick of moving the blame and responsibility away from those who should recieve it,  I can see through your game. Remainers have just sulked and obstucted the processs because it didn't go their way. Out means out as per the ballot paper no matter how many times some twat shouts cliff edge or any other arsehole soundbite.

No sure why you are so touchy and angry, you won remember....

I am unconvinced you can see through an open window but that is by the by, I do however love the sound of an arsehole soundbite....

Jesus even Larry has turned it down...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DsCeuAhWwAcRRWm.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 16:17:23
Of course you're not.  Because you voted for unicorns, and they don't exist.  And now you're all chopsy because Theresa could't find your magical unicorns but, instead, has produced a knackered, flea-bitten pony.

The prospectus you voted for was never going to be delivered - because it was impossible to deliver.  The EU was always going to hold the cards.  Don't blame May for that.  Blame yourself.  You got sucked in, and fell for an unachievable pipedream.

As others have said, you & your fellow Leavers need to own this.  We've been warning you about this for 2½ years and, frankly, it's getting a little tedious now.

Well put sir..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 16:17:51
Of course you're not.  Because you voted for unicorns, and they don't exist.  And now you're all chopsy because Theresa could't find your magical unicorns but, instead, has produced a knackered, flea-bitten pony.

The prospectus you voted for was never going to be delivered - because it was impossible to deliver. The EU was always going to hold the cards.  Don't blame May for that.  Blame yourself.  You got sucked in, and fell for an unachievable pipedream.

As others have said, you & your fellow Leavers need to own this.  We've been warning you about this for 2½ years and, frankly, it's getting a little tedious now.

I think prospectus is a little OTT, back of fag packet would better describe the utopia sold by the leave campaign which was debunked by sheer practicality and the absence of any coherent plan from those trying to sell it. I heard an interview on the radio last night with Crispin Blunt (gay MP who spent years voting against gay rights, a right man of principal) and he was rolling out the blessed are the german car makers line again, even now they cannot tell the truth.

I take little pleasure in this (and hate my country being reduced to an international laughing stock), I have little love for the EU, however I like travelling and meeting new people, I like having a job and I like the thought of my daughter having the opportunities that I was lucky enough to benefit from, I see no benefits ever stated that (IMO - others are available) offset these benefits, ultimately its never nice realising you have been repeated lied to and I understand the anger (which in many cases is what the leave campaign tapped into to provide some people who need a bogeyman to blame for their own decisions and is now being repeated with May and Robins), but that's life you reap what you sow and all that jazz.

I note my learned colleague Bogus Dave put things altogether more succinctly above though!  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 16:25:56

As others have said, you & your fellow Leavers need to own this.  We've been warning you about this for 2½ years and, frankly, it's getting a little tedious now.

Or, in other words: You won... get over it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 16:29:50
Quote from: Sir red ken
We're not getting what the majority of us voted for! .

you are. you voted to leave the EU. We are leaving the EU. The government is implementing it as guided by the referendum result.

Blame Boris, Gove and JRM for walking away and not leaving a plan on how to execute.

anyway "it's the will of the people", and "people know what they voted for"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 16:42:16
you are. you voted to leave the EU. We are leaving the EU. The government is implementing it as guided by the referendum result.

Blame Boris, Gove and JRM for walking away and not leaving a plan on how to execute.

anyway "it's the will of the people", and "people know what they voted for"

Suggested that Gove will take it if he can renegotiate the deal, when the hell is he going to do that, especially if he follows the ERG line?

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/46226483_780225145649844_4030688827176648704_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=fa2cd9fa0b22020af42cd1f4b98f8af9&oe=5C7E730F)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 17:46:10
you are. you voted to leave the EU. We are leaving the EU. The government is implementing it as guided by the referendum result.

Blame Boris, Gove and JRM for walking away and not leaving a plan on how to execute.

anyway "it's the will of the people", and "people know what they voted for"

I think people are missing his point - they'd be happy to leave with no plan, just get out, sever all ties and work it out after.

We may not like that concept because it seems absurd to place the country in such a bizarre position when it comes to the economy, to immigration policy enforcement etc.

52% voted out - not out with strings.  If people voted Out but wanted to have a deal in place, tough shit, it wasn't on the ballot.  I fear though that it's mostly the 48% worried about the deal (quite rightly, given their opinion on leaving).  There is no legal need to have a deal in place though - people need to consider their voting habits if they can't understand the impact.

I think leaving is completely absurd, but if we don't just rip the plaster off, you will still have all the grumblings we have had that pushed us down this path in the first place.

For me, the choice should have been made much clearer:

a) Vote to leave the EU, lock stock and barrel - any deals made ahead of time would be a bonus, but accept your vote is likely to be an overnight divorce
b) Vote to stay in the EU with no guarantees for any changes, accepting the future path - one that you can influence but cannot control

The desire to have a middle ground is the problem.  We should accept one doesn't exist, make a choice and then make the best of that choice.  I think the country would have voted a) still.  I think more people who voted leave agree with the Hard Brexit concept than there were people voted to remain that would be happy to join the European Currency for example.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 18:27:39
I was just trying to wind SRK up to be honest


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 18:35:43
I was just trying to wind SRK up to be honest

SRK probably thinks like May.... you're a New World Order stooge, planted by the Rockefellers, to propagate a global communist takeover.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 19:18:15
I think people are missing his point - they'd be happy to leave with no plan, just get out, sever all ties and work it out after.

We may not like that concept because it seems absurd to place the country in such a bizarre position when it comes to the economy, to immigration policy enforcement etc.

52% voted out - not out with strings.  If people voted Out but wanted to have a deal in place, tough shit, it wasn't on the ballot.  I fear though that it's mostly the 48% worried about the deal (quite rightly, given their opinion on leaving).  There is no legal need to have a deal in place though - people need to consider their voting habits if they can't understand the impact.

I think leaving is completely absurd, but if we don't just rip the plaster off, you will still have all the grumblings we have had that pushed us down this path in the first place.

For me, the choice should have been made much clearer:

a) Vote to leave the EU, lock stock and barrel - any deals made ahead of time would be a bonus, but accept your vote is likely to be an overnight divorce
b) Vote to stay in the EU with no guarantees for any changes, accepting the future path - one that you can influence but cannot control

The desire to have a middle ground is the problem.  We should accept one doesn't exist, make a choice and then make the best of that choice.  I think the country would have voted a) still.  I think more people who voted leave agree with the Hard Brexit concept than there were people voted to remain that would be happy to join the European Currency for example.
I think you've just hit the nail on the head.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 21:48:15
Nail hit way off centre with nothing fixed. IMO.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it is right to keep it friendly.

I do suggest however that if any posters are claiming they know what all leave voters intended when they voted "leave the EU" then they should just pause and reflect on the thought processes that led them to make such a claim.

Or back up such claims with evidence.

I recall a multiplicity of examples of arrangements of countries outside the EU having been given before the referendum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, November 15, 2018, 22:08:29
I was just trying to wind SRK up to be honest
Good man I like your style. Shows you can think for yourself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, November 16, 2018, 00:36:35
Nail hit way off centre with nothing fixed. IMO.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it is right to keep it friendly.

I do suggest however that if any posters are claiming they know what all leave voters intended when they voted "leave the EU" then they should just pause and reflect on the thought processes that led them to make such a claim.

Or back up such claims with evidence.

I recall a multiplicity of examples of arrangements of countries outside the EU having been given before the referendum.

My opinion is just that, an opinion.  It is based on exposure to the subject - I have yet to see someone on here who said they voted leave that wouldn't accept Hard Brexit and in my personal life I know plenty who voted leave who would happily all take Hard Brexit (my parents being very close examples).

I have also yet to meet someone at my end of the spectrum, so my gut tells me more people who voted to remain have issues with the EU than there are voters who voted to leave that have some positive views of the EU.  The remain vote was in fact based off discussion to try and get concessions from the EU to help.  That goes to show that the UK population is not really IN.  Most people I have spoken to about the EU like the idea of a trading block but do not like the idea of further integration, which is what should happen if you stay in.

Hard Brexit was always a potential outcome of voting to Leave, so if you voted that way but didn't really want to end up with that result, you probably should have voted to remain or abstain.

I think the country is nuts, but it is the country and it voted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 16, 2018, 01:23:24
And some bloke called Shailesh Vara has gone too, N Ireland minister apparently (no I've never heard of him either)

...and likely pronounced "Stephen O' Hara" no doubt!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, November 16, 2018, 06:34:07
My opinion is just that, an opinion.  It is based on exposure to the subject - I have yet to see someone on here who said they voted leave that wouldn't accept Hard Brexit and in my personal life I know plenty who voted leave who would happily all take Hard Brexit (my parents being very close examples).

I have also yet to meet someone at my end of the spectrum, so my gut tells me more people who voted to remain have issues with the EU than there are voters who voted to leave that have some positive views of the EU.  The remain vote was in fact based off discussion to try and get concessions from the EU to help.  That goes to show that the UK population is not really IN.  Most people I have spoken to about the EU like the idea of a trading block but do not like the idea of further integration, which is what should happen if you stay in.

Hard Brexit was always a potential outcome of voting to Leave, so if you voted that way but didn't really want to end up with that result, you probably should have voted to remain or abstain.

I think the country is nuts, but it is the country and it voted.
Exactly as I see it albeit I would argue the country was seeing sense. Robert t, you speak a lot of sense on this subject and the people you speak to echo those I speak to.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, November 16, 2018, 08:13:19
My opinion is just that, an opinion.  It is based on exposure to the subject - I have yet to see someone on here who said they voted leave that wouldn't accept Hard Brexit and in my personal life I know plenty who voted leave who would happily all take Hard Brexit (my parents being very close examples).

I have also yet to meet someone at my end of the spectrum, so my gut tells me more people who voted to remain have issues with the EU than there are voters who voted to leave that have some positive views of the EU.  The remain vote was in fact based off discussion to try and get concessions from the EU to help.  That goes to show that the UK population is not really IN.  Most people I have spoken to about the EU like the idea of a trading block but do not like the idea of further integration, which is what should happen if you stay in.

Hard Brexit was always a potential outcome of voting to Leave, so if you voted that way but didn't really want to end up with that result, you probably should have voted to remain or abstain.

I think the country is nuts, but it is the country and it voted.

Just about sums up where I come from.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: normy on Friday, November 16, 2018, 08:22:52
I voted Remain because I thought that a hard Brexit would be disastrous for trade and prosperity, although I dislke much of the European Union's drive towards ever close union and perhaps a European army and other aspects. Almost Orwellian.

I am surprised at how much TM has managed to gain in the draft, and if it wasn't for the N Ireland question I would be happy with the deal on its first appearance. However, there is a lot of detail to emerge yet and it will be interesting.  Better than House of Cards imo.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 16, 2018, 08:47:27
No trolling this time but its driving me mad.

The UK voted, and the 17M were the majority, true, they won the vote. But the UK Government has a duty of care to the 59 million who voted remain/couldn't or didn't vote.

May had gone for the best possible/least damaging deal while trying to stick to delivering the vote verdict.

After the refferendum voteshe was installed as PM by her own party. That's the way it works. If Gove, JRM or Boris wanted something different then they should have put their name in an headed it up. They chose not to.

So tough shit on them really.
-----------------------
I also think its madness to stick with a bad decision just because 2 years ago people thought we'd get something else by leaving.

Somehow asking the people to vote on the terms is 'undemocratic'. Bullshit. What that really means is that it may provide a different result to the one you or I want.  

If "the will of the people" is to leave with no deal, an explicit option, so be it. Ask them.

Political suicide of course thrusting us in to perpetual calls for more referendums. I get that. Can't be done.

So as I say, hard line Brexiteers. Tough shit. You had plenty chance to steer this. You decided to snipe from the sidelines and do bugger all to take control. Live with it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, November 16, 2018, 09:31:41
Could 'ol Theresa be playing a canny game.

She appears to be trying to push through a dreadful deal for the UK and, surely, she must know it wont be accepted.

Leadership election and, say, Boris or The Young Fogy become leader. Now the EU have to deal with someone who is likely to drive a hard bargain - if anything at all.

Here comes some EU concessions!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, November 16, 2018, 09:40:41
No trolling this time but its driving me mad.

The UK voted, and the 17M were the majority, true, they won the vote. But the UK Government has a duty of care to the 59 million who voted remain/couldn't or didn't vote.

May had gone for the best possible/least damaging deal while trying to stick to delivering the vote verdict.

After the refferendum voteshe was installed as PM by her own party. That's the way it works. If Gove, JRM or Boris wanted something different then they should have put their name in an headed it up. They chose not to.

So tough shit on them really.

They've be stopped from getting the desired result by people who don't like democracy. Those paid by the eu and a rich elite many of whom don't want to live in the eu themselves. Remainers just fucked it up so they can say it can't be done.And now weazely little traitors turn around and say were not going to let you leave so tough shite.
See how easily democracy dies.
-----------------------
I also think its madness to stick with a bad decision just because 2 years ago people thought we'd get something else by leaving.

Somehow asking the people to vote on the terms is 'undemocratic'. Bullshit. What that really means is that it may provide a different result to the one you or I want.  

If "the will of the people" is to leave with no deal, an explicit option, so be it. Ask them.

Political suicide of course thrusting us in to perpetual calls for more referendums. I get that. Can't be done.

So as I say, hard line Brexiteers. Tough shit. You had plenty chance to steer this. You decided to snipe from the sidelines and do bugger all to take control. Live with it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 16, 2018, 09:44:08
Sky sources: All government whips have been told to cancel any engagements today and return to London as a source close to the whip's office says a no confidence vote in the Prime Minister is now "likely"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, November 16, 2018, 09:49:47
Could 'ol Theresa be playing a canny game.

She appears to be trying to push through a dreadful deal for the UK and, surely, she must know it wont be accepted.

Leadership election and, say, Boris or The Young Fogy become leader. Now the EU have to deal with someone who is likely to drive a hard bargain - if anything at all.

Here comes some EU concessions!
See what you're saying but I see it differently. I really do think May believes what she says. If she gets through the next few days she'll pitch it as this deal or no deal and with those two choices she'll try and get the bill though.
I can't see the EU making any concessions, particularly at this late date. I don't see why they should. Our PM has agreed it on the basis she think she can sell it. Now she's got to sell it.
The issue is whether she will be PM. I think she could well remain in power. The issue would appear to be whether a leadership challenge would work. If not, then I believe May stays for at least a year.  I think there's enough numbers to push for the challenge but people are holding back while corridor conversations are being held to make sure they know they can win. Also, you've got good old Jezza in the background.
I think the bill is a pile of steaming shit and would rather Remain than have it enacted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, November 16, 2018, 09:53:17
Sky sources: All government whips have been told to cancel any engagements today and return to London as a source close to the whip's office says a no confidence vote in the Prime Minister is now "likely"
excellent news,by the time the traitor may is desposed and a new person elected as leader it will be December and parliment will close.Then the clock will run down and the UK will leave the eu. Those who don't want to be British can up sticks and live in the eussr.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, November 16, 2018, 09:56:26
I think the bill is a pile of steaming shit and would rather Remain than have it enacted.

It is remain by another name. She didn't want us to leave and has worked against the result.
Next thing will be a vote do want this pile of shite or remain as we were,so easy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 16, 2018, 10:17:44
 I see that Tomlinson and Buckland lined up behind May.... well that was yesterday, might change today.

 It's difficult to tell with these two as Tomlinson was a Brexiteer, and Buckland a Remainer.... both seem to have changed their minds at times, which I'm sure was nothing to do with their jobs in Government, but a concern for their constituents.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 16, 2018, 10:20:29
Gove seems to be staying.

Well done for sticking true to your principles Michael, i.e  self preservation


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 16, 2018, 10:23:45

I think leaving is completely absurd, but if we don't just rip the plaster off, you will still have all the grumblings we have had that pushed us down this path in the first place.



Whilst I sort of agree in principle, I think this still falls into the threatening trap perpetuated by Farage etc that there is going to be civil war if the 'will of the people' is not enacted, but rather ignores the fact that there is an equal potential for strife if the 16m who voted remain (plus the 13m who didn't vote at all) see their standard of living, health etc affected by this shambolic bollocks, pro remain marches have been getting 700k+ attendance whilst the pro leave events being held are averaging about 1500 (from the pictures of the one in Bolton in the majority men in their 60's+).

As a case in point I was speaking to a mate the other week whose daughter has a chronic illness which needs daily medication (with a shit shelf life), he is a generally mild mannered bloke who is very nervous about the potential that she will struggle with regular supplies of medicine after we leave* he is fuming about things and is entirely committed to taking whatever action is necessary to protect his family if necessary - it genuinely shocked me how robust he is feeling!

*This will no doubt be dismissed as project fear, but this week I collected my monthly prescription and the pharmacist who I know well as she had been supply me for years noted that I might want to order more frequently between now and March 'just in case', now I am lucky as my meds have a decent shelf life, others don't have that option.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 16, 2018, 10:28:51
 The UK was always a semi detached EU member.... we'll now become semi, semi detached.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 16, 2018, 10:30:15

I also think its madness to stick with a bad decision just because 2 years ago people thought we'd get something else by leaving.

Its like having diabetes and the doctor saying that if it deteriorates over the next few years you will have to have your leg amputated and the patient saying OK fine. Then two years down the line the doc saying it would need to come off now but we now have this new medication which will prevent the amputation, but you agreed then to it so I will just fetch my jigsaw!

As for democracy it was apparently fine for May to call a new election to strengthen her position to deliver hard brexit, rather going against the fixed term Act for political gain, yet apparently not OK for this even though the period between the two is actually longer now than that between the 2015 and 2017 elections.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 16, 2018, 10:31:35
The UK was always a semi detached EU member.... we'll now become semi, semi detached.

So flacid then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 16, 2018, 10:44:13
Gove seems to be staying.

Well done for sticking true to your principles Michael, i.e  self preservation

To be fair he would have had to wait for Murdoch and Vine to tell him what to do....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 16, 2018, 10:48:54
So flacid then?

It's what gets the Brexiteers mad.... the realisation that the country has now been shown for what it is, it's like Suez all over again.  The consequences of that and the subsequent break up of Empire.... meant in order to retain some global influence we had to pool some sovereignty with fellow Europeans. We will now still pool some sovereignty, but no longer have any influence on decision making.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 16, 2018, 11:36:47
NEW: Steve Baker has told the ERG whatsapp group his letter count is over 48 with a dozen probables on top.
---

good grief, the Torys are going to force us to crash out aren't they..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 16, 2018, 11:48:11
NEW: Steve Baker has told the ERG whatsapp group his letter count is over 48 with a dozen probables on top.
---

good grief, the Torys are going to force us to crash out aren't they..


That's the plan, and always has been.

It will be interesting to see what happens as forcing a leadership battle and then possibly a new leader rolling up provides a perfect excuse to delay everything as we won't be able to negotiate or prepare for anything until its quietened down, essentially depriving the country of the ability to make good on this shit storm for a period of time, plus if May doesn't get toppled (see earlier comment that whilst they may have the letters they do not apparently have the support to actually win) then she cannot be challenged for 12 months!

At what stage does acting for personal gain against whats best for the country (setting aside wherever one stands on Brexit this infighting is fucking the country over economically and socially) become, you know, erm, treason! 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 16, 2018, 11:52:21
Even if she gets through it she's got the DUP to deal with.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 16, 2018, 11:59:04
At what stage does acting for personal gain against whats best for the country (setting aside wherever one stands on Brexit this infighting is fucking the country over economically and socially) become, you know, erm, treason! 
Said it a few pages back - Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Farage, Rees Mogg, Banks, Fox, Hannan and Gove, stick em all in the Tower pending trial (anyone know if we still have hanging for treason?)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 16, 2018, 12:01:49
Said it a few pages back - Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Farage, Rees Mogg, Banks, Fox, Hannan and Gove, stick em all in the Tower pending trial (anyone know if we still have hanging for treason?)

And Piers Morgan. Don't forget Piers Morgan. And Russel Brand while we're at it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, November 16, 2018, 12:06:39

At what stage does acting for personal gain against whats best for the country (setting aside wherever one stands on Brexit this infighting is fucking the country over economically and socially) become, you know, erm, treason! 

I like where you are going with this.
Don't think it will come to 'orf with their heads'. Which is a pity.
But it's high time that the people took a much more proactive role in removing incompetents from public office, outside of the so called democratic process.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 16, 2018, 12:07:43
And Piers Morgan. Don't forget Piers Morgan. And Russel Brand while we're at it.
Think you're just throwing people you don't like into a general purge here aren't you? But hell yeah, why not?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 16, 2018, 12:18:22
Said it a few pages back - Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Farage, Rees Mogg, Banks, Fox, Hannan and Gove, stick em all in the Tower pending trial (anyone know if we still have hanging for treason?)

UN seem to agree (apologies its the bloody Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/16/uk-austerity-has-inflicted-great-misery-on-citizens-un-says?fbclid=IwAR1hTcU5eJZBu6bS5qAPprbpoNiHVkzyCm5OXX_qKhrQiziNVW0jgvYClKQ


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, November 16, 2018, 12:32:55
Even if she gets through it she's got the DUP to deal with.


It's ironical that those now hellbent on stopping the Withdrawal Agreement have Gina Miller and our own Supreme Court ("traitors", remember?) to thank for having asserted the right of a parliamentary vote on the Withdrawal Agreement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 16, 2018, 12:35:26
Still think a parliamentary vote was the correct call, even if it ends in disaster.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, November 16, 2018, 12:36:40
Agreed.  Basic democracy.  The irony being that the Brexiters wanted to railroad Brexit through without a vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, November 16, 2018, 14:51:05
Agreed.  Basic democracy.  The irony being that the Brexiters wanted to railroad Brexit through without a vote.
With out a vote, for fucks sake we had a vote leave was one of 2 options on the ballot paper and it won.
How simple is it to understand,no fucking unicrons were promised or requested and the only cliffendge was on dreamt up by a bitter twat of a remainer chancellor who prided himself on getting everything wrong.
We've had the vote, now can we leave that's what the vote was about or were you so certain that the remain slaves vote would walk it! You twats talk about democracy while marching all over it like a commie general and his army.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 16, 2018, 14:52:28
you won. the government is implemented brexit . where the problem?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, November 16, 2018, 14:56:36
I want my unicron


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 16, 2018, 15:00:32
you won. the government is implemented brexit . where the problem?

Sir (D)red Ken is just a troll. If not, they're highly unhinged.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 16, 2018, 15:02:20
I want my unicron

I want to know what a Cliffendge is? Is it like a Stonehenge but fashioned from the great British (oops, I mean "English") chalky cliffs of blighty?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 16, 2018, 15:05:05
Does the parody page Britain Furst still post on Assbook?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, November 16, 2018, 15:12:48
Sir (D)red Ken is just a troll. If not, they're highly unhinged.
Sir Red Ken is just replying in kind to some of the comments made to Leavers. I take a slightly different approach but I like Sir Red Ken.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, November 16, 2018, 15:18:43
Sir Red Ken is just replying in kind to some of the comments made to Leavers. I take a slightly different approach but I like Sir Red Ken.

But you do realise that Unicron's don't exist, right?  There would only be one of them of course, being a Transformer, so hoping for more would be forlorn.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 16, 2018, 15:20:42
Sir Red Ken is just replying in kind to some of the comments made to Leavers. I take a slightly different approach but I like Sir Red Ken.

I don't see anyone on here really posting the way SRK does. SRK is complaining about something they voted for and won? Heaven forbid when this person loses at something.

I think if anything the posts are detrimental to the points yourself and a few other leave supporters are trying to get across. At least you are being democratic about it. SRK keeps banging on about "...and this is how easily democracy dies." Yet the approach is hardly democratic from SRK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, November 16, 2018, 15:38:28
I don't see anyone on here really posting the way SRK does. SRK is complaining about something they voted for and won? Heaven forbid when this person loses at something.

I think if anything the posts are detrimental to the points yourself and a few other leave supporters are trying to get across. At least you are being democratic about it. SRK keeps banging on about "...and this is how easily democracy dies." Yet the approach is hardly democratic from SRK.
I'll defend SRK - not that he needs it though. Its his viewpoint. Leave won a democratic vote and that's what should then be implemented. If it isn't then what point democracy. He has a good point but we'll all have our own viewpoints that's what makes forums like this interesting.
I don't agree with Remainers but I like to read the different views. It shows things from different angles - angles I would not think of. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 16, 2018, 15:47:15
I'll defend SRK - not that he needs it though. Its his viewpoint. Leave won a democratic vote and that's what should then be implemented. If it isn't then what point democracy. He has a good point but we'll all have our own viewpoints that's what makes forums like this interesting.
I don't agree with Remainers but I like to read the different views. It shows things from different angles - angles I would not think of. 

SRK is a complete loon... every forum should have one. Since Dosser disappeared Ken has stepped into the breech. I don't think they're the same person


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, November 16, 2018, 15:50:31
I'll defend SRK - not that he needs it though. Its his viewpoint. Leave won a democratic vote and that's what should then be implemented. If it isn't then what point democracy. He has a good point but we'll all have our own viewpoints that's what makes forums like this interesting.
I don't agree with Remainers but I like to read the different views. It shows things from different angles - angles I would not think of. 
It wasn't constitutional democracy though, was it? It was more like passing the buck. And passing it to people who didn't have the full facts, or any idea of the difficulties and potential pitfalls.
Anyone who can still vote Tory after this clusterfuck needs their bumps felt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 16, 2018, 15:58:16
lier lier pants on fire Amber Rudd is back in cabinet replacing Esther McVey


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, November 16, 2018, 16:07:53
SRK is a complete loon... every forum should have one. Since Dosser disappeared Ken has stepped into the breech. I don't think they're the same person
That's just it you don't think, your another hive brainwashed guardian,huffpost call everyone else a loon. Try some free independent thinking its quite uplifting or alternatively follow Branson who wants you to live in the eussr whilst he doesn't.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, November 16, 2018, 16:13:16
passing it to people who didn't have the full facts, or any idea of the difficulties and potential pitfalls.

I voted to remain and felt sick when the vote went the other way.  But in many ways I've been even more sickened by the following two years listening to people explain condescendingly that the vote shouldn't count because (stupid) people voted without understanding the facts when what they actually mean is that it shouldn't count because it didn't go the way that they (and I) wanted it to.

Do you really think that everyone who voted to remain understood the full facts either? Does anybody ever?

Do you dismiss every general election result on the basis that some people take a considered view before voting but other people vote for the nicest looking candidate so their votes shouldn't count?

Universal suffrage democracy sucks at times but it beats the shit out of the alternatives.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, November 16, 2018, 16:19:52
I voted to remain and felt sick when the vote went the other way.  But in many ways I've been even more sickened by the following two years listening to people explain condescendingly that the vote shouldn't count because (stupid) people voted without understanding the facts when what they actually mean is that it shouldn't count because it didn't go the way that they (and I) wanted it to.

Do you really think that everyone who voted to remain understood the full facts either? Does anybody ever?

Do you dismiss every general election result on the basis that some people take a considered view before voting but other people vote for the nicest looking candidate so their votes shouldn't count?

Universal suffrage democracy sucks at times but it beats the shit out of the alternatives.
Bravo there speaks the voice of reason and intellegence. So refreshing after reading all the minority swivel eyed loons posting on here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, November 16, 2018, 16:35:46
I voted to remain and felt sick when the vote went the other way.  But in many ways I've been even more sickened by the following two years listening to people explain condescendingly that the vote shouldn't count because (stupid) people voted without understanding the facts when what they actually mean is that it shouldn't count because it didn't go the way that they (and I) wanted it to.

Do you really think that everyone who voted to remain understood the full facts either? Does anybody ever?

Do you dismiss every general election result on the basis that some people take a considered view before voting but other people vote for the nicest looking candidate so their votes shouldn't count?

Universal suffrage democracy sucks at times but it beats the shit out of the alternatives.
I don't think I even suggested that remainers had the full facts. No one had that and I don't think anyone has now. I wasn't being condescending,  I include myself in the ignorant masses...
Our form of government relies on those elected to run the country and they are expected to understand the issues and vote accordingly.
I still maintain that calling a referendum had fuck all to do with giving the public a say and everything to do with appeasing sections of the Tory party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, November 16, 2018, 17:05:02
Interesting poll out today:- Just 8% of Brits support the idea of having a second referendum, according to the latest poll by YouGov. Added to the people who want to stop Brexit by other means, only 36% of voters would like to see the result of the referendum reversed. By contrast adding together the different Brexit options sees 64% of voters in favour of EU withdrawal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Friday, November 16, 2018, 17:20:25
Interesting poll out today:- Just 8% of Brits support the idea of having a second referendum, according to the latest poll by YouGov. Added to the people who want to stop Brexit by other means, only 36% of voters would like to see the result of the referendum reversed. By contrast adding together the different Brexit options sees 64% of voters in favour of EU withdrawal.
From the same survey, Britain backs TM's deal over No Deal by 60% to 40%.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, November 16, 2018, 17:24:14
Bravo there speaks the voice of reason and intellegence. So refreshing after reading all the minority swivel eyed loons posting on here.

I don't think that it is reasonable or intelligent to call other people swivel eyed loons just because they have a different point of view.  Particularly on Brexit where it is difficult to describe virtually any point of view as being clearly right or wrong.

Apart from Flashheart of course who is a fucking moron.  :)  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, November 16, 2018, 17:27:00
I wasn't being condescending,  

I've re-read my post.  I was meaning to refer to politicians (particularly the Lib Dems) but my post implies you.  Sorry.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, November 16, 2018, 17:30:23
Who would win in a fist fight between May and Merkel?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, November 16, 2018, 17:31:30
I don't think that it is reasonable or intelligent to call other people swivel eyed loons just because they have a different point of view.  Particularly on Brexit where it is difficult to describe virtually any point of view as being clearly right or wrong.

Apart from Flashheart of course who is a fucking moron.  :)  
I agree, but if your not a remaniac then your poorly educated xenophobe,little Englander racist, who thought they'd voted for free unicorns etc.It cuts both ways and there a bunch of hive thinking dumb fucks. Bit hard on flash though,


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, November 16, 2018, 17:33:14
Who would win in a fist fight between May and Merkel?
Sorry are you suggesting that May's been fisting Merkel and vice versa!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 16, 2018, 17:35:52
Apart from Flashheart of course who is a fucking moron.  :)  

At least I can sit on a toilet straight, unlike Batch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 16, 2018, 17:42:48
Who would win in a fist fight between May and Merkel?

Merkel but May does have those chains!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 16, 2018, 17:49:21
I agree, but if your not a remaniac then your poorly educated xenophobe,little Englander racist, who thought they'd voted for free unicorns etc.It cuts both ways and there a bunch of hive thinking dumb fucks. Bit hard on flash though,

What's a Remaniac? Is it some kind of make-up wearing gypsy car. You know like a version of Herbie? The confused car that wanted to be human.

On a serious note, I was brought up around so called poorly educated, Xenophobic, Little Englander Racists. With opinions very different to certain parts of my Town. I voted remain but I'm not shouting anyone down or calling them poorly educated. You have some very erratic responses Sir (D)red!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, November 16, 2018, 19:09:47
Interesting poll out today:- Just 8% of Brits support the idea of having a second referendum, according to the latest poll by YouGov. Added to the people who want to stop Brexit by other means, only 36% of voters would like to see the result of the referendum reversed. By contrast adding together the different Brexit options sees 64% of voters in favour of EU withdrawal.
:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:
Just 8% of people polled wanted a referendum specifically on the Withdrawal Agreement.  That's not a "second referendum" is it, Sir?

The same poll showed that a "second referendum" on in or out of the EU would be favoured

   by 56% as against proceeding with the Withdrawal Agreement and

   by 54% as against the No Deal alternative

8% for a "second referendum" exceeds even the TEF's very generous 80% bollox quota.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, November 16, 2018, 19:46:33
What's a Remaniac? Is it some kind of make-up wearing gypsy car. You know like a version of Herbie? The confused car that wanted to be human.

On a serious note, I was brought up around so called poorly educated, Xenophobic, Little Englander Racists. With opinions very different to certain parts of my Town. I voted remain but I'm not shouting anyone down or calling them poorly educated. You have some very erratic responses Sir (D)red!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 19, 2018, 13:32:07
Apparently the first qualification to be a party leader now a days is to be entirely delusional!

https://twitter.com/Jamin2g/status/1064088901445459970

At least one expects the Tories to be actively seeking to bring hardship on much of the population...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, November 19, 2018, 21:14:03
Apparently the first qualification to be a party leader now a days is to be entirely delusional!

The job must be mine then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 09:01:36
The job must be mine then.

at last something we can agree upon!  :D ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 16:17:28
Perhaps you remainers are happy with this?

https://order-order.com/2018/11/20/french-finance-minister-calls-europe-become-empire/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 17:44:42
I'd happily have a European passport, live in Britain as a state in a United States of Europe, and have absolutely no problem with an EU army, but terms like "empire" aren't great.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 17:49:20
Already being a geographical European (and not much is going to change that), I'd happily have a European Passport. Seeing as I am European.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 17:53:09
I'd happily have a European passport, live in Britain as a state in a United States of Europe, and have absolutely no problem with an EU army, but terms like "empire" aren't great.

It is no different to the Britain of old claiming a "British Empire" except at least a "European Empire" does seem to be a little more democratic and inclusive. Ours was full of land-grabbing, raping and pillaging. More like the "Brutish Empire".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 18:35:17
It is no different to the Britain of old claiming a "British Empire" except at least a "European Empire" does seem to be a little more democratic and inclusive. Ours was full of land-grabbing, raping and pillaging. More like the "Brutish Empire".
Right I see it now British empire which stopped Germany and France rulling was bad, even though millions laid down their lives to stopp them. But an eu Empire run by the German's and French is much desired by those who see themselves as neither British or English.
I thank you for you honesty but why not go and live in your beloved eu and let the UK be a free sovereign nation which our forefathers laid down their lives.I don't want to be an eu citizen and that was never offered to the people of the UK at any time by any government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 18:56:56
Right I see it now British empire which stopped Germany and France rulling was bad, even though millions laid down their lives to stopp them. But an eu Empire run by the German's and French is much desired by those who see themselves as neither British or English.
I thank you for you honesty but why not go and live in your beloved eu and let the UK be a free sovereign nation which our forefathers laid down their lives.I don't want to be an eu citizen and that was never offered to the people of the UK at any time by any government.

I know several others have tried to explain to you, but let's give it another go.  We're leaving the EU in March. 

One of the consequences is that we no longer have a say in what they choose to do, so if they want a US style confederacy of states, none of our business. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 19:04:50
Think it would make sense for the grown ups to sort out the Brexit mess and for Empire 2.0 type Brexitists to step aside.

The French Finance Minister's "Empire of Peace" musings are received with a Gallic shrug on the other side of the Channel.

Likewise, when our former Home Secretary warns that the draft Withdrawal Agreement will render the UK a COLONY, normal Brits give a wry smile, raise their eyebrows and wait for Boris' next quip when he returns from playing with his toy soldiers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 20:00:36
Right I see it now British empire which stopped Germany and France rulling was bad, even though millions laid down their lives to stopp them. But an eu Empire run by the German's and French is much desired by those who see themselves as neither British or English.
I thank you for you honesty but why not go and live in your beloved eu and let the UK be a free sovereign nation which our forefathers laid down their lives.I don't want to be an eu citizen and that was never offered to the people of the UK at any time by any government.

F, must do better!

The UK offered membership to the populace.  It didn't do a very good job of describing the long term objectives, but nobody bothered to do much research either, voting instead for the belief of economic growth, which they got.  The reality is the Treaty of Rome, the origins of what is now the EU, had a clear end game in mind - a unification of Political, Social and Economic policy across member states.  Just because people don't read the small print, doesn't mean they have a right to moan - we had our choice and we took it.  Just as we have now voted to leave and everyone who did so has to accept a Hard Brexit is a possibility, maybe probability.  No backing out.

Next, The British Empire did not resist Germany, an alliance of forces from around the Globe did that, including those aligned to Britain, and our countries themselves.  It did not require them to be part of our Empire, it was the resisting of forced expansion, without democratic involvement of a murderous regime.  As it happens, many of the British Empire then quickly left that Empire - it was somewhat hypocritical to stand against that, given that our Empire was forged in bloodshed.  Not many countries asked to be a part of the Empire, they were held under the force of sword of guns, just like every other Empire in history.  It is very likely they saw us in much the same was as we saw Nazi's.

History moves on, we can;t live in it.  We just voted to leave the EU - you can't get much more to the opposite of the German intent of WW2.  Nobody held us at gun point, we were free to leave whenever we felt like it.  Greece could do so also, they won't though, because for all the bickering about the impacts financial austerity has had on them, they still understand they are better off in than out in the  long term.  Easier to moan about the bad from within than live the with the bad from without.

As Reg says, what the EU do is now down to them, not us.  The concept of Nations is still quite young in the history of mankind, who is to say which way is right.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 20:09:49
I used to love the Brittas Empire.

HTH


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 21:02:39
Right I see it now British empire which stopped Germany and France rulling was bad, even though millions laid down their lives to stopp them. But an eu Empire run by the German's and French is much desired by those who see themselves as neither British or English.
I thank you for you honesty but why not go and live in your beloved eu and let the UK be a free sovereign nation which our forefathers laid down their lives.I don't want to be an eu citizen and that was never offered to the people of the UK at any time by any government.

Maybe not SRK but it doesn't matter how you dress it up - you will always be a European Citizen. Because you (I assume) were born in Europe. There is nothing geographically you can do about it. It must make you sick to the back teeth that as long as you remain a citizen of the United Kingdom/England/Blighty/The British Isles/Great Britain & N.I - you will still always be a European.

I'm English, I'm British, I'm European and I'm fucking proud!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 21:06:30
Maybe not SRK but it doesn't matter how you dress it up - you will always be a European Citizen. Because you (I assume) were born in Europe. There is nothing geographically you can do about it. It must make you sick to the back teeth that as long as you remain a citizen of the United Kingdom/England/Blighty/The British Isles/Great Britain & N.I - you will still always be a European.

I'm English, I'm British, I'm European and I'm fucking proud!

I'm not sure SRK is of this planet.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 21:07:18
I used to love the Brittas Empire.

HTH

Same, wasn't bad at all. You can't beat Red Dwarf and Arnold Rimmer from that era though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 21:19:35
Maybe not SRK but it doesn't matter how you dress it up - you will always be a European Citizen. Because you (I assume) were born in Europe. There is nothing geographically you can do about it. It must make you sick to the back teeth that as long as you remain a citizen of the United Kingdom/England/Blighty/The British Isles/Great Britain & N.I - you will still always be a European.

I'm English, I'm British, I'm European and I'm fucking proud!
Not sure  SRK is though - reading his posts, I don't think English is his first language


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 21:21:08
I used to love the Brittas Empire.

HTH
Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion and all that but this is a step too far. The Brittas Empire, like everything else that whossisface was in, was fucking terrible


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 21:53:53
I'm a Swindonian.  I have affiliations to sporting teams at varying levels - England for Rugby, and Football, England and Wales (and probably Ireland and Scotland) for Cricket, the area known as Great Britain for Olympic sports, The British Isles for Rugby again, Europe for Golf.  These are more because I like sport and tend to support teams with the closest affiliation to me.  They are more fun than any great sense of "patriotism".  That is until the 4th of July, where I now boast my undying love of the Nation and Royal Family when asked what I am doing to celebrate :-)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 09:08:03
Not sure  SRK is though - reading his posts, I don't think English is his first language

It always tickles me that so many who are the first to argue that immigrants don't integrate and thus should not stay seem barely able to communicate in English and would probably fail any language qualification were it imposed on those immigrating to our country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 09:33:58
Right I see it now British empire which stopped Germany and France rulling was bad, even though millions laid down their lives to stopp them. But an eu Empire run by the German's and French is much desired by those who see themselves as neither British or English.

Jesus read a bloody history book rather than the Daily Express and you never know you might learn something.....

even though millions laid down their lives to stopp them. But an eu Empire run by the German's and French is much desired by those who see themselves as neither British or English.
I thank you for you honesty but why not go and live in your beloved eu and let the UK be a free sovereign nation which our forefathers laid down their lives.I don't want to be an eu citizen and that was never offered to the people of the UK at any time by any government.

What is this bloody obsession that right wingers have with the war, trying to conceal nationalism (which our forefathers fought to prevent) with a skewed bastardisation of patriotism.

I suspect you have no experience of the war, my old man lived through the war in Swindon, cowering under the table in a shelter during raids, making friends with German PoW's (I suspect that in your mind that probably makes 7 year old Horlock07 senior a traitor), mixing with all the Polish incomers and RAF members and not seeing his dad (that he can remember) until he was about 9.

Everyone who fought during these conflicts vowed to never forget and never again at the end, yet there are those who seek to galmorise the conflict and still use it to justify their world view suggesting that its some manner of high point in history (and blithely forgetting that in each case we didn't win on our own, in both cases France and Russia took an absolute shoeing!

Subsequently my old man moved to France and used to attend remembrance Sunday every year in the small town in southern France they moved to (I imagine that makes his a traitor as well), the first year they just turned up with a wreath to lay, after that it got to the stage that he and his wife were approached each year by the Mayor to ask if they still wanted to lay a wreath to remember the British dead and they were invited to the event after the formal ceremony with the veterans of the town (despite my old man only being a kid during the war) so that all nationalities could remember together - go and visit a French War memorial, they make ours look sparsely populated!

Whether you like it or not, you are European (assuming you are British, its not clear) and that isn't going to change, we are stronger together and I remain a proud European, British and English (although probably less proud to be English in recent years for reasons that you so beautifully articulate!)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 13:42:01
Jesus read a bloody history book rather than the Daily Express and you never know you might learn something.....

What is this bloody obsession that right wingers have with the war, trying to conceal nationalism (which our forefathers fought to prevent) with a skewed bastardisation of patriotism.

I suspect you have no experience of the war, my old man lived through the war in Swindon, cowering under the table in a shelter during raids, making friends with German PoW's (I suspect that in your mind that probably makes 7 year old Horlock07 senior a traitor), mixing with all the Polish incomers and RAF members and not seeing his dad (that he can remember) until he was about 9.

Everyone who fought during these conflicts vowed to never forget and never again at the end, yet there are those who seek to galmorise the conflict and still use it to justify their world view suggesting that its some manner of high point in history (and blithely forgetting that in each case we didn't win on our own, in both cases France and Russia took an absolute shoeing!

Subsequently my old man moved to France and used to attend remembrance Sunday every year in the small town in southern France they moved to (I imagine that makes his a traitor as well), the first year they just turned up with a wreath to lay, after that it got to the stage that he and his wife were approached each year by the Mayor to ask if they still wanted to lay a wreath to remember the British dead and they were invited to the event after the formal ceremony with the veterans of the town (despite my old man only being a kid during the war) so that all nationalities could remember together - go and visit a French War memorial, they make ours look sparsely populated!

Whether you like it or not, you are European (assuming you are British, its not clear) and that isn't going to change, we are stronger together and I remain a proud European, British and English (although probably less proud to be English in recent years for reasons that you so beautifully articulate!)

Well fucking said!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 15:11:14
Well fucking said!

TBF... I don't think after Brexit we'll cease to be European.... the EU is largely a trading block, of which membership has been beneficial to the UK economically.  The more cultural aspects of European identity will still be in place, for example the Eurovision Song Contest and UEFA tournaments.... who knows we may see a revival of the Anglo Italian Cup.

OK, SRK might argue that the AIC was before we joined Common Market, so its demise can be blamed on Bruxelles, but he'd be forgetting the early 90's comeback.

I'm sure also that it will still be entirely possible for the likes of a Tom Paine to seek asylum in France and a Voltaire to hole up in GB.

No the hit will be financial rather than cultural for the lower orders....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 15:44:37
TBF... I don't think after Brexit we'll cease to be European.... the EU is largely a trading block, of which membership has been beneficial to the UK economically.  The more cultural aspects of European identity will still be in place, for example the Eurovision Song Contest and UEFA tournaments.... who knows we may see a revival of the Anglo Italian Cup.

OK, SRK might argue that the AIC was before we joined Common Market, so its demise can be blamed on Bruxelles, but he'd be forgetting the early 90's comeback.

I'm sure also that it will still be entirely possible for the likes of a Tom Paine to seek asylum in France and a Voltaire to hole up in GB.


No the hit will be financial rather than cultural for the lower orders....

I totally understand all that Reg but I don't no why you quoted me?  :unsure:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 15:54:55
I totally understand all that Reg but I don't no why you quoted me?  :unsure:

Convenience.... Horlock wrote a long piece to which you agreed, so it was just housekeeping.... tidier


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 16:13:36
George Soros came round and asked me to link to this piece in the libtard rag he funds...

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/parliaments-arch-brexiteers-held-a-press-conference-and-everyone-is-pointing-out-the-same-thing_uk_5bf3fcc5e4b0376c9e68b2a6?ncid=other_twitter_cooo9wqtham&utm_campaign=share_twitter


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 18:58:05
I do think us leavers fall into the war or empire trap. In my view, both irrelevant to this debate. There is also sometimes little distinction between Europe and the EU. I like Europe but despise the EU. I don't wish Europe anything but financial success, just not with us as part of it. I obviously wish us more success 
As for Soros, it's what he does. It should be expected that foreign nationals will try and exploit brexit on both sides. Why wouldn't they.
In terms of nationality I'm a very proud swindonian who is also proud of being English but also proud of my Irish roots. I've never considered myself European and never will.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 19:14:49
It is no different to the Britain of old claiming a "British Empire" except at least a "European Empire" does seem to be a little more democratic and inclusive. Ours was full of land-grabbing, raping and pillaging. More like the "Brutish Empire".
I noticed you singled out the British Empire and ignore the russsian, japanese,french,german,roman etc.
This specific targeting of Britain make you a racist.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 19:31:17
I think it is pretty clear, looking back at history, that all those Empires would be treated with hostility in the modern world.  The Nazi Germany attempt was a little different although not unique - it desired the extermination of entire cultures and races.  Many of the others had pretty horrid consequences for those subjugated though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 19:38:11
I do think us leavers fall into the war or empire trap. In my view, both irrelevant to this debate. There is also sometimes little distinction between Europe and the EU. I like Europe but despise the EU. I don't wish Europe anything but financial success, just not with us as part of it. I obviously wish us more success 
As for Soros, it's what he does. It should be expected that foreign nationals will try and exploit brexit on both sides. Why wouldn't they.
In terms of nationality I'm a very proud swindonian who is also proud of being English but also proud of my Irish roots. I've never considered myself European and never will.
Brilliantly put by a true patriot, proud of his ancestry,country and Town. Europe is a continent with many nations, not another communist block. We know how badly that ended.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 19:50:58
I think it is pretty clear, looking back at history, that all those Empires would be treated with hostility in the modern world.  The Nazi Germany attempt was a little different although not unique - it desired the extermination of entire cultures and races.  Many of the others had pretty horrid consequences for those subjugated though.

The US Empire and its continued pursuit of global hegemony had horrid consequences for many peoples....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 20:37:44
The US Empire and its continued pursuit of global hegemony had horrid consequences for many peoples....
It has, all Empires have been bad for everyone, except the dominant force. The EU will be next to try it with their Empire, if not why build one?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 20:53:44
It has, all Empires have been bad for everyone, except the dominant force. The EU will be next to try it with their Empire, if not why build one?

Yeah... what have the Romans ever done for us

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvPbj9NX0zc


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 22:35:36
Proud european
https://youtu.be/q5D0t6ejcGE (https://youtu.be/q5D0t6ejcGE)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 23:54:30
I noticed you singled out the British Empire and ignore the russsian, japanese,french,german,roman etc.
This specific targeting of Britain make you a racist.

It was relevant, seeing as we're British and leaving the E.U. You behaved as if the British Empire behaved like butter wouldn't melt.

If you really, really knew me...you'd know I'm not racist at all. I would retract that claim if I were you. You stated it with certain sincerity. As if it were a claim of truth.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 23:58:49
Convenience.... Horlock wrote a long piece to which you agreed, so it was just housekeeping.... tidier

Je vois, merci.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dogs on Thursday, November 22, 2018, 02:43:27
The class war (if there is actually any) Is already at the 1944 stage. Vast automation is only a stone throw away, especially in many large corporations. When this occurs, those lines will be blurred. The lower middle class will then realise their folly in their support for the abolition of the state safety net.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Thursday, November 22, 2018, 08:19:19
And the third angel sounded. And a star fell from heaven. Burning as it were a lamp.And it fell upon the 3rd part of the waters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 22, 2018, 10:25:33
The class war (if there is actually any) Is already at the 1944 stage. Vast automation is only a stone throw away, especially in many large corporations. When this occurs, those lines will be blurred. The lower middle class will then realise their folly in their support for the abolition of the state safety net.

Earlier in the week erstwhile TEF'er and now junior minister JustinTomlinson, was answering questions in the Commons on the State safety net, particularly the benefit cap that 20K is all you can get 23K in London. Asked his solution to those struggling with this, he recommends they take in a lodger.... asked further what happens if say they've 3 kids, 2 in 1 bedroom 1 in another, then his suggestion stick three 3 in a room to make the space.... or move.

He further pointed out that... the so called bedroom tax, was to encourage those with spare capacity to downsize, so that it would free up properties for larger families..

Now unusually, I have a certain sympathy for the government view on this. I know several people usually woman, who for one reason or another have to take in lodgers, or in some cases social services youngsters, to make ends meet, or downsize when the kids have flown the nest. They all still work. Socialism must always provide a safety net, but at what point does it take the piss out of the ordinary worker?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, November 22, 2018, 21:26:27
Earlier in the week erstwhile TEF'er and now junior minister JustinTomlinson, was answering questions in the Commons on the State safety net, particularly the benefit cap that 20K is all you can get 23K in London. Asked his solution to those struggling with this, he recommends they take in a lodger.... asked further what happens if say they've 3 kids, 2 in 1 bedroom 1 in another, then his suggestion stick three 3 in a room to make the space.... or move.

He further pointed out that... the so called bedroom tax, was to encourage those with spare capacity to downsize, so that it would free up properties for larger families..

Now unusually, I have a certain sympathy for the government view on this. I know several people usually woman, who for one reason or another have to take in lodgers, or in some cases social services youngsters, to make ends meet, or downsize when the kids have flown the nest. They all still work. Socialism must always provide a safety net, but at what point does it take the piss out of the ordinary worker?

When the state ie the working class that provide that money via hard work and taxation determine that the piss has been taken by their fellow working class claimants for too long. An arguement could be made that both red and blue have created that empasse over the years for differing political advantage. All well and good when the money is there to pay for it. Even when it appears that it is there it’s usually borrowed and has to be paid back eventually. No such thing as a free lunch is there?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 23, 2018, 09:07:34
When the state ie the working class that provide that money via hard work and taxation determine that the piss has been taken by their fellow working class claimants for too long. An arguement could be made that both red and blue have created that empasse over the years for differing political advantage. All well and good when the money is there to pay for it. Even when it appears that it is there it’s usually borrowed and has to be paid back eventually. No such thing as a free lunch is there?

Possibly so, although going forward deliberately fucking your own economy which will further diminish the tax revenue is only going to make things worse really. Also not been helped by it being friven by ideology for the last 8 years as concluded by the United Nations.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, November 23, 2018, 10:25:29
Possibly so, although going forward deliberately fucking your own economy which will further diminish the tax revenue is only going to make things worse really. Also not been helped by it being friven by ideology for the last 8 years as concluded by the United Nations.

Your point is a valid one in its own right (possibly apart from the word "deliberately"). 

Don't undermine it by citing anything that the UN says.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 23, 2018, 11:11:09
Possibly so, although going forward deliberately fucking your own economy which will further diminish the tax revenue is only going to make things worse really. Also not been helped by it being friven by ideology for the last 8 years as concluded by the United Nations.

It's an irony that the benefits dependancy culture really got wheels in the Thatcher years.

2 factors drove it, firstly the decimation of the old industrial  base, left whole communities with few employment prospects, those that didn't follow Norman Tebbit's advice and "get on their bike" were cushioned by the use of North Sea tax revenues, to a life of benefit dependency.

Secondly, whereas in the post war period, up until the mid 70's.... money in the budget for social housing went towards constructing new homes... very little to pay rent other than for those who because of disability etc were unable to work.

With the Thatcherite sale of council properties, and local government rate capping.... the budget stopped being invested in new build, and increasingly went towards housing benefit, which often went straight to private landklords.

The 2 factors combined helped produce a generation of people for whom benefit dependancy is the norm


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, November 23, 2018, 11:26:07
I wonder what news has been buried or just not seen the light of day because of Brexit dominating every day.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 23, 2018, 14:00:52
I wonder what news has been buried or just not seen the light of day because of Brexit dominating every day.

Thats a very cynical attitude....

In other news, a rather damning review of the 'deal'....

TL-DR they have us over a barrel mainly due to the actions of our government.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/11/23/may-s-brexit-deal-is-a-humiliation-for-britain


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, November 23, 2018, 14:26:25
Thats a very cynical attitude....

In other news, a rather damning review of the 'deal'....

TL-DR they have us over a barrel mainly due to the actions of our government.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/11/23/may-s-brexit-deal-is-a-humiliation-for-britain
So we go back to the original question asked of the electorate - out or in. Its one or the other. Trying to please everyone has failed spectacularly. As I said before I'd rather remain than be tied to this deal. I'd rather go over the cliff edge though I'd rather we started it over 2 years ago.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, November 23, 2018, 16:17:16
If we do go over the edge (the No Deal option), it raises the very real prospect that we are forced to go back to the EU in the coming months effectively begging to be let back in.  It would be a humiliation that would dwarf even the Suez Crisis.  The EU would set the terms on our re-entry, and we would be bound more tightly than ever before.

Not saying that this would happen for certain (because no-one can see the future) but it would be, in my view, a very real possibility.  Leave enthusiasts advocating the No Deal option as a route out of this should think very carefully.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 23, 2018, 16:41:36
If we do go over the edge (the No Deal option), it raises the very real prospect that we are forced to go back to the EU in the coming months effectively begging to be let back in.  It would be a humiliation that would dwarf even the Suez Crisis.  The EU would set the terms on our re-entry, and we would be bound more tightly than ever before.


We would have to be in the Euro and Schengen for a start...

The alternative, and one which I expect they would follow rather than slinking back with the tail between their legs to the EU, is to jump into bed with the USA accepting anything they will offer us so its chlorine chicken etc all the way.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Friday, November 23, 2018, 18:54:15
If we do go over the edge (the No Deal option), it raises the very real prospect that we are forced to go back to the EU in the coming months effectively begging to be let back in.  It would be a humiliation that would dwarf even the Suez Crisis.  The EU would set the terms on our re-entry, and we would be bound more tightly than ever before.

Not saying that this would happen for certain (because no-one can see the future) but it would be, in my view, a very real possibility.  Leave enthusiasts advocating the No Deal option as a route out of this should think very carefully.

There is absolutely nothing to fear from a no deal.

We already trade with the majority of the world on WTO rules anyway. And as for hold ups at customs that’s a total myth.

I know someone who has worked at Southampton for many years and goods coming in on WTO experience delays of seconds on the wuay


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Friday, November 23, 2018, 18:59:37
There is absolutely nothing to fear from a no deal.

We already trade with the majority of the world on WTO rules anyway. And as for hold ups at customs that’s a total myth.

I know someone who has worked at Southampton for many years and goods coming in on WTO experience delays of seconds on the quay. All this talk of blockades is coming from the same people whom predicted Armageddon if we didn’t join the Euro.

The EU is a busted flush. 90% of future GDP growth is forecast to happen outside it and this is where the opportunities lie.

The single market is just a racket that benefits German manufacturing and inefficient French producers. The tariffs placed on in many cases better goods that come from outside are eye watering- for example food, clothing and footwear would become cheaper once we are outside as we can choose to drop these tariffs. This will benefit the poorest in Society the most.

I work regularly in Spain and Italy with my job and I have seen the damage the Euro has done to these Southern European economies- and it ain’t pretty


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 08:50:10
Possibly so, although going forward deliberately fucking your own economy which will further diminish the tax revenue is only going to make things worse really. Also not been helped by it being friven by ideology for the last 8 years as concluded by the United Nations.

Don’t give me that ideology shit, making out only the conservatives use ‘their’ ideology as an excuse or weapon upon, for or against the country. I’m not sure where the deliberately fucking your country comes from. I’ll make and educated guess based on the stuff you post ad nauseam that you are referring to the tightening of the countries fiscal belt over the tenure of the coalition (less so) and sole conservative government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 09:05:33
Interesting to hear Dianne Abbott discussing the possibility of an alliance with the DUP to bring down the government.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 09:15:01
Don’t give me that ideology shit, making out only the conservatives use ‘their’ ideology as an excuse or weapon upon, for or against the country. I’m not sure where the deliberately fucking your country comes from. I’ll make and educated guess based on the stuff you post ad nauseam that you are referring to the tightening of the countries fiscal belt over the tenure of the coalition (less so) and sole conservative government.
I think the "deliberately fucking your own economy" bit refers to events in the future as he says it "will further diminish the tax revenue". I'd assume he means Brexit rather than the ongoing programme of austerity which has already been impacting the economy for the past decade.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 09:45:24
I think the "deliberately fucking your own economy" bit refers to events in the future as he says it "will further diminish the tax revenue". I'd assume he means Brexit rather than the ongoing programme of austerity which has already been impacting the economy for the past decade.

It has been impacting the country, by getting down the debt. As I stated you can’t keep borrowing, someone has to pay for the interest, which reduces the amount you can spend elsewhere as well as the outstanding capitol which also has to be down paid. if you think down paying debt capitol and subsequent intest on that debt is fucking over the country i’ll See you down the pub tonight and you can pay for my beer and a kebab on the way home. Same again next week and the week after, i’ll Pay you back sometime, not sure or by how much. Still think it’s a good idea?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 11:56:53
It has been impacting the country, by getting down the debt. As I stated you can’t keep borrowing, someone has to pay for the interest, which reduces the amount you can spend elsewhere as well as the outstanding capitol which also has to be down paid. if you think down paying debt capitol and subsequent intest on that debt is fucking over the country i’ll See you down the pub tonight and you can pay for my beer and a kebab on the way home. Same again next week and the week after, i’ll Pay you back sometime, not sure or by how much. Still think it’s a good idea?
If you read back properly, you'll see I was explaining what I thought horlock meant, as you seemed to be struggling to understand it, rather than advocating the position myself. But then you appear to have misunderstood that too. A little more careful reading, and thoughtfulness, before you blunder into ranting might make you look less of a tit. Just a thought.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 12:14:51
If you read back properly, you'll see I was explaining what I thought horlock meant, as you seemed to be struggling to understand it, rather than advocating the position myself. But then you appear to have misunderstood that too. A little more careful reading, and thoughtfulness, before you blunder into ranting might make you look less of a tit. Just a thought.

Life is a daily struggle. Ranting? Me? You’re having a laugh, i’m Div2 compared with others 😂😂 and now a tit? Oh dear, resorting to abuse tsk, tsk, tsk. You lose any argument or debate when you resort to abusing others. Still it is TEF forum where people can call others all sorts or unsavoury things with no action yet referring to St Reg as Paul Plowman gets miraculously amend by the the mods or maybe even St. Reg. Then again it is no wonder so many people have deleted their profiles, stopped visiting or are just casual guests.

Onwards and upwards. Enjoying your weekend? I am, your post has actually cheered me up. Ain’t life strange 😂😂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 12:20:40
Life is a daily struggle. Ranting? Me? You’re having a laugh, i’m Div2 compared with others 😂😂 and now a tit? Oh dear, resorting to abuse tsk, tsk, tsk. You lose any argument or debate when you resort to abusing others. Still it is TEF forum where people can call others all sorts or unsavoury things with no action yet referring to St Reg as Paul Reg gets miraculously amend by the the mods or maybe even St. Reg. Then again it is no wonder so many people have deleted their profiles, stopped visiting or are just casual guests.

Onwards and upwards. Enjoying your weekend? I am, your post has actually cheered me up. Ain’t life strange 😂😂

I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 12:30:30
Ledge

I respect any Town fan's opinion but I do have to correct claims where they are wrong.

Accordingly, it should be noted that the national debt has not been coming down.  Quite the reverse.

Since 2009/10 when it stood at GBP 1 trillion, the national debt had grown to 1.8 trillion in May 2018.  In relative terms, it has grown from 67% of GDP to 85% of GDP.

What is being done about it?  Well October 2018 saw the annual deficit reach GBP 8.8 billion, its highest level for 3 years.

With that background, as a prudent Tory, do you think it is sensible to increase spending on the NHS?

Leavers can deny it but, after years of austerity, the side of the bus claim has ironically embarrassed the Conservatives into tempering at least the NHS strand of its austerity policy so we can think that we have a Brexit dividend.

IMO :)

Three points today :pint:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 17:00:10
Ledge

I respect any Town fan's opinion but I do have to correct claims where they are wrong.

Accordingly, it should be noted that the national debt has not been coming down.  Quite the reverse.

Since 2009/10 when it stood at GBP 1 trillion, the national debt had grown to 1.8 trillion in May 2018.  In relative terms, it has grown from 67% of GDP to 85% of GDP.

What is being done about it?  Well October 2018 saw the annual deficit reach GBP 8.8 billion, its highest level for 3 years.

With that background, as a prudent Tory, do you think it is sensible to increase spending on the NHS?

Leavers can deny it but, after years of austerity, the side of the bus claim has ironically embarrassed the Conservatives into tempering at least the NHS strand of its austerity policy so we can think that we have a Brexit dividend.

IMO :)

Three points today :pint:

Don't come on here stating facts for fuck's sake.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 17:05:58
Three points today.  FACT !   :pint:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 18:30:41
Life is a daily struggle. Ranting? Me? You’re having a laugh, i’m Div2 compared with others 😂😂 and now a tit? Oh dear, resorting to abuse tsk, tsk, tsk. You lose any argument or debate when you resort to abusing others.
Not exactly massive abuse is it? More just calling it the way I see it - act like a ranting tit, I'll call you a ranting tit. Try reading things properly (or even just reading anything apart from the Mail and the Express) and taking the time to understand a different point of view, it might broaden your horizons.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 18:36:52
The mail has had a change of editor and is no longer for brexit. Maybe other changes as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 18:44:23
Not exactly massive abuse is it? More just calling it the way I see it - act like a ranting tit, I'll call you a ranting tit. Try reading things properly (or even just reading anything apart from the Mail and the Express) and taking the time to understand a different point of view, it might broaden your horizons.
I read all the media outlets, including the guardian.not independent and that rag for above average retards the guffington post.(guff post is so funny, it doesn't hide its stuidity and readers posts are priceless.) The one thing that stands out for me is that all leftards are fucking stupid and easily lead hive thinkers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 19:00:52
The mail has had a change of editor and is no longer for brexit. Maybe other changes as well.
Still wouldn't wipe my arse on it, pro or anti-Brexit. Even Brexiteers are anti-Brexit now, such is the sterling job the govt have made of the whole fiasco.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 19:03:04
The one thing that stands out for me is that all leftards are fucking stupid and easily lead hive thinkers.
So presumably then by your own standards you've not got a single political argument left to counter the "leftards"
I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 19:06:30
Still wouldn't wipe my arse on it, pro or anti-Brexit. Even Brexiteers are anti-Brexit now, such is the sterling job the govt have made of the whole fiasco.
I think most people who voted brexit accept that remain is better than this like of shit served up. However, most will also say they feel betrayed and that we should have made it clear we're out of everything EU related. The whole negotiation has been a farce as we showed we had neither heart nor a hand to play.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 19:11:52
I think most people who voted brexit accept that remain is better than this like of shit served up. However, most will also say they feel betrayed and that we should have made it clear we're out of everything EU related. The whole negotiation has been a farce as we showed we had neither heart nor a hand to play.
You're bang on right there. Because neither side had a plan for how they would leave. The leaders of both Remain and Leave have betrayed the country horribly, said before that Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Gove, Farage should all be put on trial for treason. And Blair. Just because.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 19:45:51
You're bang on right there. Because neither side had a plan for how they would leave. The leaders of both Remain and Leave have betrayed the country horribly, said before that Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Gove, Farage should all be put on trial for treason. And Blair. Just because.
For fuck sake its just a political scam! oh leaving is difficult,people didn't realise what it meant and there was no plan.What complete and utter left wing bollox. Remain decided that they wouldn't accept a democratic vote and have prevented leave  from happening.Now your calling for people who want a free democratic country to be put on trial? Crist the stupidity of your statement could only be put down to years of brainwashing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 20:53:01
For fuck sake its just a political scam! oh leaving is difficult,people didn't realise what it meant and there was no plan.What complete and utter left wing bollox. Remain decided that they wouldn't accept a democratic vote and have prevented leave  from happening.Now your calling for people who want a free democratic country to be put on trial? Crist the stupidity of your statement could only be put down to years of brainwashing.

Apparently 60% of people in GB believe in some conspiracy theory or other.... there's definitely a lot of it about. 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/23/study-shows-60-of-britons-believe-in-conspiracy-theories

I'm guessing you're firmly in the 60%, with your talk Remain (whoever they are) not accepting a democratic vote when we're leaving the EU shortly.... and PD being brainwashed.

Care to enlighten us on some of your beliefs.... aliens, faked moon landings, New World Order, flat earth  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, November 24, 2018, 22:20:11
Apparently 60% of people in GB believe in some conspiracy theory or other.... there's definitely a lot of it about. 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/23/study-shows-60-of-britons-believe-in-conspiracy-theories

I'm guessing you're firmly in the 60%, with your talk Remain (whoever they are) not accepting a democratic vote when we're leaving the EU shortly.... and PD being brainwashed.

Care to enlighten us on some of your beliefs.... aliens, faked moon landings, New World Order, flat earth  :hmmm:
OK here they are Jimmy Savile worked for the BBC and liked children a lot. Karl Marx left millions to his children. Remain won the referendum. Bill clinton did not have sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky. Communisium is going to take away all the rich peoples money and give it to the poor. There, insane thinking isn't it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Sunday, November 25, 2018, 00:28:52
I read all the media outlets, including the guardian.not independent and that rag for above average retards the guffington post.(guff post is so funny, it doesn't hide its stuidity and readers posts are priceless.) The one thing that stands out for me is that all leftards are fucking stupid and easily lead hive thinkers.

You are such a fool! Spelling stupidity incorrectly sums you up to a tee!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, November 25, 2018, 01:39:20
OK here they are Jimmy Savile worked for the BBC and liked children a lot. Karl Marx left millions to his children. Remain won the referendum. Bill clinton did not have sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky. Communisium is going to take away all the rich peoples money and give it to the poor. There, insane thinking isn't it.

Come on SRK, you can do better than this.... you'll be telling us next that Louis Theroux, really didn't like Savile, and that the unveiling of a blue plaque to mark 200 years of Freemasonry in Swindon, is only right and proper.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, November 25, 2018, 08:22:18
Come on SRK, you can do better than this.... you'll be telling us next that Louis Theroux, really didn't like Savile, and that the unveiling of a blue plaque to mark 200 years of Freemasonry in Swindon, is only right and proper.
Yes and Yes add them to my list.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, November 25, 2018, 09:10:54
Crist the stupidity of your statement could only be put down to years of brainwashing.

I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, November 25, 2018, 11:06:59

The first line was by me and the second one by that colossus of a PM Margaret Thatcher!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 26, 2018, 09:14:06
The first line was by me and the second one by that colossus of a PM Margaret Thatcher!

Can you at least learn to quote properly, its makes understanding the point you are missing/failing to make even more difficult.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 26, 2018, 09:18:24
It has been impacting the country, by getting down the debt. As I stated you can’t keep borrowing, someone has to pay for the interest, which reduces the amount you can spend elsewhere as well as the outstanding capitol which also has to be down paid. if you think down paying debt capitol and subsequent intest on that debt is fucking over the country i’ll See you down the pub tonight and you can pay for my beer and a kebab on the way home. Same again next week and the week after, i’ll Pay you back sometime, not sure or by how much. Still think it’s a good idea?

The factually incorrect bollocks in the first bit rather discredits the later economics lesson.

Debt has spiraled under austerity, poverty has gone through the roof so if its not ideologically driven then I would be intrigued to understand the plan, although sheer economic fuckwitttedness by the Tories may be a plausible answer in light of their performance over the last 2 years - party of fiscal stability my arse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, November 27, 2018, 13:04:19
  So.... we enter a very interesting phase in the Bexit shitstorm.  It's entirely possible that the next few weeks could sunder the Tory party, in a way not seen since the Repeal of the Corn Laws.

 Then, for those not aware, the price of bread was kept artificially high, for the benefit of the Tory gentry.  The depopulation of the countryside to the new industrial centres, often meant starvation for the working classes. Hence the clamour for free trade.

 The Tories split, in order to align themselves with the new industrial/mercantile classes, who sought a reduction in the price of bread for the workers, so they could reduce wages, and increase profit.

 The Tory Brexiteers like Mogg, are all for wage reduction and increase in profits for their mercantile class.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 27, 2018, 13:09:19
They were talking on radio 4 earlier as if the reject majority could be as many as 100 MPs.

Can't see where this will end up other than a no deal Brexit. Surely not enough time for a GE or leadership contest without a Brexit extension.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 27, 2018, 13:36:35
They were talking on radio 4 earlier as if the reject majority could be as many as 100 MPs.

Can't see where this will end up other than a no deal Brexit. Surely not enough time for a GE or leadership contest without a Brexit extension.



I understand that the governments own QC's have concluded that A50 can be extended or rescinded if Parliament say so, so who knows.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, November 27, 2018, 13:36:54
A no deal has never been investigated let alone considered. If we were to crash out now with 4 months to go it would be fucking shameful and a disaster. It should have been our default position and planned 3 years ago.
It's going to be difficult to call what happens next. The may deal is a pile of shit that could be read a number of ways but none in a positive, hard thought victory kind of way. May has done a shit job for both extremes of the debate and there's not enough in the middle to support it.
Given the whole fucking mess the Tories have made if this they should be unelectable if it wasn't for jezza and his gang. If labour were clever they'd ditch jezza, appoint Benn and go all in on a remain ticket.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, November 27, 2018, 13:53:50
The deal will be rejected by Parliament. May will have to resign as it will be a massive vote of no confidence.

Brexit date will be extended. There will be a GE with nobody really wanting to win and become responsible for the mess.

A second referendum will occur and the decision overturned. So whatever happens after that is the people’s fault and none of the shit will stick to any slimy politician.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, November 27, 2018, 13:59:36
Hopefully


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, November 27, 2018, 15:35:06
The deal will be rejected by Parliament. May will have to resign as it will be a massive vote of no confidence.

Brexit date will be extended. There will be a GE with nobody really wanting to win and become responsible for the mess.

A second referendum will occur and the decision overturned. So whatever happens after that is the people’s fault and none of the shit will stick to any slimy politician.

Very difficult to second-guess what will happen over the coming fortnight.... beyond if May is voted down, then the can will be kicked down the road.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, November 27, 2018, 16:14:39
The deal will be rejected by Parliament. May will have to resign as it will be a massive vote of no confidence.

Brexit date will be extended. There will be a GE with nobody really wanting to win and become responsible for the mess.

A second referendum will occur and the decision overturned. So whatever happens after that is the people’s fault and none of the shit will stick to any slimy politician.

Why would the Brexit date be extended?  we've served notice, all that will happen is we exit with no trading deal in place with the EU and a big bill.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Tuesday, November 27, 2018, 17:03:17
A no deal has never been investigated let alone considered. If we were to crash out now with 4 months to go it would be fucking shameful and a disaster. It should have been our default position and planned 3 years ago.
It's going to be difficult to call what happens next. The may deal is a pile of shit that could be read a number of ways but none in a positive, hard thought victory kind of way. May has done a shit job for both extremes of the debate and there's not enough in the middle to support it.
Given the whole fucking mess the Tories have made if this they should be unelectable if it wasn't for jezza and his gang. If labour were clever they'd ditch jezza, appoint Benn and go all in on a remain ticket.

Would you mind expanding on why it's a pile of shit for the uneducated - cheers


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, November 27, 2018, 17:30:55
My best guess is that we'll end up with a Norway style deal (ie soft Brexit) - which is where I've always felt we should have ended up, logically, with a 52% vote in favour of leaving.  I doubt very much that parliament will permit a no deal exit.  There are too many MPs who would be dead set against that...and I'm sure they would find a way, if necessary, to avoid the scenario.

As to who will PM in 4 months from now - or even which party will be in control - I have no idea.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Tuesday, November 27, 2018, 18:25:26
Isn`t this proposal exactly what is needed - nobody is happy with it - as the vote was so close it soon became quite apparent that neither Remain or Leave would be happy unless they got things entirely their own way - an impossible task all things considered. So now we have this situation where nobody is happy which oddly seems the fairest way of proceeding...the BBC media is really quite keen on stirring the shit but I think everybody is so bored by the word Brexit that public opinion would probably be in favour of the MP`s voting this agreement in - which on the outside doesn`t really look like an agreement at all...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, November 28, 2018, 09:53:33
Would you mind expanding on why it's a pile of shit for the uneducated - cheers
I think the article quoted by Horlock sums it up quite well. A remainer quoting an article by a remainer but I agree with most of it.
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/11/23/may-s-brexit-deal-is-a-humiliation-for-britain
I could be wrong but the deal could very well lead to us needing EU agreement to leave which has to be unpallatable to leavers. We also have the fact that we haven't got a fucking clue about any trade deal and the wording seems to smack of the best endeavours scenario that Spurs gave us when they signed one of our youngsters years ago.
I still believe that the EU have dictated their terms and we've meekly agreed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 28, 2018, 09:58:45
I think the article quoted by Horlock sums it up quite well. A remainer quoting an article by a remainer but I agree with most of it.
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/11/23/may-s-brexit-deal-is-a-humiliation-for-britain
I could be wrong but the deal could very well lead to us needing EU agreement to leave which has to be unpallatable to leavers. We also have the fact that we haven't got a fucking clue about any trade deal and the wording seems to smack of the best endeavours scenario that Spurs gave us when they signed one of our youngsters years ago.
I still believe that the EU have dictated their terms and we've meekly agreed.

Ooh... remind us of the Spurs thing, was it when they signed Leigh Mills?  We ended up with Jamie Slabber or something.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 28, 2018, 10:06:29
Isn`t this proposal exactly what is needed - nobody is happy with it - as the vote was so close it soon became quite apparent that neither Remain or Leave would be happy unless they got things entirely their own way - an impossible task all things considered. So now we have this situation where nobody is happy which oddly seems the fairest way of proceeding...the BBC media is really quite keen on stirring the shit but I think everybody is so bored by the word Brexit that public opinion would probably be in favour of the MP`s voting this agreement in - which on the outside doesn`t really look like an agreement at all...

Hammond, who to me does at least seem grown up, is saying that the analysis is that the economy takes a hit under any form of Brexit.... hence the reasons for this deal as a least bad option for the economy.  Obviously a tactical ploy aimed at Tory MP's, the electorate will not thank you for making them poorer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, November 28, 2018, 10:09:21
Ooh... remind us of the Spurs thing, was it when they signed Leigh Mills?  We ended up with Jamie Slabber or something.
Yes, you are correct. They got our brightest young thing permanently and we got a useless fucker on loan. On the positive side, it didn't quite work for Spurs either.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, November 28, 2018, 11:48:28
Isn`t this proposal exactly what is needed - nobody is happy with it - as the vote was so close it soon became quite apparent that neither Remain or Leave would be happy unless they got things entirely their own way - an impossible task all things considered. So now we have this situation where nobody is happy which oddly seems the fairest way of proceeding...the BBC media is really quite keen on stirring the shit but I think everybody is so bored by the word Brexit that public opinion would probably be in favour of the MP`s voting this agreement in - which on the outside doesn`t really look like an agreement at all...

I think that is probably true.  I tend not to "talk" about Brexit as it either upsets people or, worse, bores them.  When ensconced in a remainer only environment, we tend to have a bit of a moan and do some eye rolling.

To the very decent folk who are bored, my hunch is that you will not be heard.  You are probably less likely to vote.

The reality is that the Farages, the Rees Moggs, the Bridgens, the Cashs and so on will be continuing to fight against any close alignment with our neighbours in the EU, as their like have done for the last 20 years.  They would never be satisfied with the Withdrawal Agreement as some form of compromise.  Never, never, never!

With apologies to the moderates and the bored, however much I prefer you even to myself, I personally will never equably countenance a future for the UK shaped by the likes of the above.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, November 28, 2018, 12:08:22
the electorate will not thank you for making them poorer.

It's the will of the people. Its not like Project Fear forgot to mention it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 28, 2018, 13:33:24
Hidden away by the Brexit shambles later today the Offensive Weapons Bill is up again. The government has dropped plans originally in the bill to ban .50 calibre military grade guns in England after pressure from hard-Brexit Tories - mainly in the ERG - and the DUP.

Why?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: scillyred on Wednesday, November 28, 2018, 13:46:22
I think that is probably true.  I tend not to "talk" about Brexit as it either upsets people or, worse, bores them.  When ensconced in a remainer only environment, we tend to have a bit of a moan and do some eye rolling.

To the very decent folk who are bored, my hunch is that you will not be heard.  You are probably less likely to vote.

The reality is that the Farages, the Rees Moggs, the Bridgens, the Cashs and so on will be continuing to fight against any close alignment with our neighbours in the EU, as their like have done for the last 20 years.  They would never be satisfied with the Withdrawal Agreement as some form of compromise.  Never, never, never!

With apologies to the moderates and the bored, however much I prefer you even to myself, I personally will never equably countenance a future for the UK shaped by the likes of the above.  


I am intelligent, professional and vote.
I am so bored with Brexit & Trump that whenever they are mentioned on TV/Radio I immediately turn over - ignorance is bliss !
The tories were never going to agree amongst themselves, labour are only interested in manufacturing an election and the lib dems have missed the boat. Life will go on - probably as a Remainer it may be sour grapes 8)




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 28, 2018, 13:49:40

I still believe that the EU have dictated their terms and we've meekly agreed.

Did people expect anything different?  Just from personal experience, those that wanted out would be happy without a deal anyway.  The EU was hardly going to negotiate much - for starters they want to ensure it does indeed cause some pain to leave, otherwise why bother with the Union?  Second, we had nothing to negotiate with - one vs 27+ doesn't really provide much strength, regardless of what people may think.  Me might be a net contributor to the Admin side of the EU, but that's pittance compared to the financial impact of the free trade, free movement of people etc.

Look, voting to leave means taking a financial impact at some point and to some degree.  The argument for leaving was never about short term economics, it was purely about some notion of nationhood and controlling our laws (read immigration).  Messing about trying to avoid that is pointless.  Just prepare for life after the EU, work out where our strategic trading partners are now based and begin working on trade deals.  Identify those key laws that you want to reform and do so quickly.  Look at taxation policy and decide if we can do anything differently and quickly, like changing VAT (unlikely) or corporate tax rates etc.  They won't stop the bump/cliff fall, but you then show you are shaping your future, even if that is at a rest level.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 28, 2018, 15:04:58
Hidden away by the Brexit shambles later today the Offensive Weapons Bill is up again. The government has dropped plans originally in the bill to ban .50 calibre military grade guns in England after pressure from hard-Brexit Tories - mainly in the ERG - and the DUP.

Why?

I'd imagine the NRA are probably funding some Tory politicians.  The likes of the Honourable Memeber for the 18th Century will have noted back then and into the early 19th Century, there was a right to bear arms in GB.  It was a time before the establishment of the Constabulary, so shootings happened. Of course guns were expensive and relatively inefficient.  Spencer Perceval, PM, was assassinated by a Scouser in Parliament.

The Colonists, just took the tradition with them and hung on to it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Wednesday, November 28, 2018, 15:17:00
Hidden away by the Brexit shambles later today the Offensive Weapons Bill is up again. The government has dropped plans originally in the bill to ban .50 calibre military grade guns in England after pressure from hard-Brexit Tories - mainly in the ERG - and the DUP.

Why?

They know that the Zombie Apocalypse is imminent?

Ban shit that people can kill each other with and they will just find something else that will do the job.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 09:34:34
I am intelligent, professional and vote.
I am so bored with Brexit & Trump that whenever they are mentioned on TV/Radio I immediately turn over - ignorance is bliss !
The tories were never going to agree amongst themselves, labour are only interested in manufacturing an election and the lib dems have missed the boat. Life will go on - probably as a Remainer it may be sour grapes  

The silent (and sane) majority speaks!

I usually listen with extra care when Brexit is on the TV or radio and often get worked up when Farage, Johnson or Rees Mogg are speaking.   I may need help.

I have at least become a tad more Zen about the fortunes (and mainly misfortunes) of STFC over time  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 10:10:09
I'd imagine the NRA are probably funding some Tory politicians.  The likes of the Honourable Memeber for the 18th Century will have noted back then and into the early 19th Century, there was a right to bear arms in GB.  It was a time before the establishment of the Constabulary, so shootings happened. Of course guns were expensive and relatively inefficient.  Spencer Perceval, PM, was assassinated by a Scouser in Parliament.

The Colonists, just took the tradition with them and hung on to it.

There are plenty of known links between certain republican groups funded by the NRA and the various Tory think tanks and right wing pressure groups based at Tufton Street, so you are no doubt correct.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 10:49:49
 Interesting from McDonnell today.... his take over the coming weeks, is that MP's will vote down May's deal, but there will not be a GE, due to turkeys not voting for Christmas, and given Cameron's sleight of hand on fixed terms, they have to vote for one.

 There then might be some tweaks to May's deal, but it will have to go to a second ref, where the question will be May's deal or Remain.

 No deal, not being a realistic option as it will tank the economy.

 This might be Labour's policy now.... or maybe not  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 11:02:21
Nice to see the Governor of the Bank England taking such a reasoned view - not trying to scare people - really...???


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 11:12:22
Nice to see the Governor of the Bank England taking such a reasoned view - not trying to scare people - really...???
The figures quoted are the worst case scenario. It would be interesting to see the best case scenario  or even the most likely view ito provide a balanced view.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 11:13:06
Nice to see the Governor of the Bank England taking such a reasoned view - not trying to scare people - really...???

How do you know it's not a reasoned view? What if it's what he genuinely believes? What would you have him say then? Would you rather he lied? Or keep quiet, over something so important?

Why assume he's just trying to scare people and not telling it as he genuinely sees it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 11:15:28
Nice to see the Governor of the Bank England taking such a reasoned view - not trying to scare people - really...???

Seems to me, he's asked the question, is the country prepared for a no-deal Brexit in March and found the answer to be no. 

Therefore has called for a transition period to make the necessary adjustments.

The Tory right predicatably are foaming at the mouth, suggesting it was wrong to appoint a Canadian to such a position.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 11:20:27
How do you know it's not a reasoned view? What if it's what he genuinely believes? What would you have him say then? Would you rather he lied? Or keep quiet, over something so important?

Why assume he's just trying to scare people and not telling it as he genuinely sees it?

Because practically every projection he has ever made good or bad has been wrong. He is utterly useless


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 11:23:35
Because practically every projection he has ever made good or bad has been wrong. He is utterly useless

Let's just assume you're right, I'll leave it to somebody else to challenge your claim.

That doesn't answer my question. I didn't ask how we know he's right. I asked why assume he's just scaremongering.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 11:24:13
Because practically every projection he has ever made good or bad has been wrong. He is utterly useless

So you think the country is prepared for a no -deal Brexit in March?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 11:55:17
Interesting from McDonnell today.... his take over the coming weeks, is that MP's will vote down May's deal, but there will not be a GE, due to turkeys not voting for Christmas, and given Cameron's sleight of hand on fixed terms, they have to vote for one.

 There then might be some tweaks to May's deal, but it will have to go to a second ref, where the question will be May's deal or Remain.

 No deal, not being a realistic option as it will tank the economy.

 This might be Labour's policy now.... or maybe not  :hmmm:

Labour do seem to be shifting slightly, its been suggested from a reasonably reputable source that Corbyn is warming to the idea of coming out for a second vote if her deal is knocked on the head....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 11:58:19
The Tory right predicatably are foaming at the mouth, suggesting it was wrong to appoint a Canadian to such a position.


Rees-Mogg's ad hominem attack on him was telling.  Didn't like the message/conclusion, so attack the man.  Classy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 12:00:51
The figures quoted are the worst case scenario. It would be interesting to see the best case scenario  or even the most likely view ito provide a balanced view.

But the governments own figures show a drop in GDP of between 5-8% depending on what deal is finally agreed (despite Mays lies in Parliament the other day!).

A few observations. First, the economy is composed of the tradeable and non-tradeable sect or. Most of the shock will be to the tradeable sector. It will be lumpy in nature. A 10% decline in the size of the tradeable sector will not be even across the economy, it will be more like the mining industry in the 80s with large effects in some places and little effect in others. Second, the tradeable sector broadly speaking is tax positive and contributes to the flows which fund the non-tradeable sector. There will be painful knock on effects. Third, it is interesting that Mrs May's deal is not explicitly one of the scenarios. This is because the political declaration is no more than a statement of intent. A real worry is that by going for a bespoke deal rather than some off the shelf version of Norway/Switzerland we have condemned our economy to years of Brexit uncertainty. That is very difficult to model.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 12:02:35

Rees-Mogg's ad hominem attack on him was telling.  Didn't like the message/conclusion, so attack the man.  Classy.

And use his nationality as an additional insult to appeal to the xenophobic nutters along the way. Mike Harding describes him as thus...

Jacob Re Smeg is the result of a privileged egg meeting a privileged and archaic spermatozoa. His contribution to Life on this planet could be written on a midge’s prepuce.  He is living proof that sometime evolution can work backwards. Sadly he is also dangerous.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 12:17:10
But the governments own figures show a drop in GDP of between 5-8% depending on what deal is finally agreed (despite Mays lies in Parliament the other day!).

A few observations. First, the economy is composed of the tradeable and non-tradeable sect or. Most of the shock will be to the tradeable sector. It will be lumpy in nature. A 10% decline in the size of the tradeable sector will not be even across the economy, it will be more like the mining industry in the 80s with large effects in some places and little effect in others. Second, the tradeable sector broadly speaking is tax positive and contributes to the flows which fund the non-tradeable sector. There will be painful knock on effects. Third, it is interesting that Mrs May's deal is not explicitly one of the scenarios. This is because the political declaration is no more than a statement of intent. A real worry is that by going for a bespoke deal rather than some off the shelf version of Norway/Switzerland we have condemned our economy to years of Brexit uncertainty. That is very difficult to model.
I may not have been clear. We've been given different worst case scenarios for different options. What I'd like to see is their best case scenario for no deal as well as what they think the likeliest outcome of no deal will be. That would enable us to more accurately assess the worst case scenario rather than that being the one quoted. The problem is that this worst case scenario will be treated with scorn and an update on project fear. Sadly, I've got a stats background and want to compare.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 12:20:10
And use his nationality as an additional insult to appeal to the xenophobic nutters along the way. Mike Harding describes him as thus...

Jacob Re Smeg is the result of a privileged egg meeting a privileged and archaic spermatozoa. His contribution to Life on this planet could be written on a midge’s prepuce.  He is living proof that sometime evolution can work backwards. Sadly he is also dangerous.

Moggy is probably thrashing around a bit after his palace coup failed to topple May... probably hoping his Dad's Army of crack Brexiteers is soon forgotten..

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/7cbd7abdb6529888ea68c49c5cad0a475909c75a/0_160_4800_2880/master/4800.jpg?width=300&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=7a539174064efa0cde05cbd29499fae4)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 13:14:45
Moggy is probably thrashing around a bit after his palace coup failed to topple May... probably hoping his Dad's Army of crack Brexiteers is soon forgotten..

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/7cbd7abdb6529888ea68c49c5cad0a475909c75a/0_160_4800_2880/master/4800.jpg?width=300&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=7a539174064efa0cde05cbd29499fae4)
As Mogg so correctly put it, Its not a coup, that' where force is used, they acted within the Tory party procedure.
The Independent ran with Coup. Massive communist, remain self interest paper.
Dad's Army was a line from the Evening Standard (bitter twisted remainer george osbourne is the editor)
Good to see you keeping free thought going by using soundbites from the biased media sources.
Read it, speak it, pretend its your thoughts and opinions how easily the mass is manipulated.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 13:49:53
Like him or loathe him I thought RM's assessment of Carney was refreshing in that it didn't follow any particular PC guidelines..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 13:56:21
As Mogg so correctly put it, Its not a coup, that' where force is used, they acted within the Tory party procedure.
The Independent ran with Coup. Massive communist, remain self interest paper.
Dad's Army was a line from the Evening Standard (bitter twisted remainer george osbourne is the editor)
Good to see you keeping free thought going by using soundbites from the biased media sources.
Read it, speak it, pretend its your thoughts and opinions how easily the mass is manipulated.

A coup does not have to be delivered by force, I suspect that in forming that view you have been manipulated by others. I can however understand why he and many of the more tin foily Brexiteers would be sniffy about the term being used, what with it being French and all that.

They tried to act within the party procedure, however could not even manage to raise 47 of his colleagues to write a letter and instead revealed themselves as being the pathetic shambolic public school boys many knew they were, in terms of media manipulation and spin, many (and I include myself in this) fell for the line that suggested that he was more powerful than he was, rather hiding the fact that he is a backbencher who has never been deemed intelligent enough for a cabinet position and instead just a barmaids impression of a gentleman.

When all is said and done the bloke will no doubt do incredibly well out of Brexit, its us plebs who will take the hit for him.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 13:59:54
Like him or loathe him I thought RM's assessment of Carney was refreshing in that it didn't follow any particular PC guidelines..
which "PC guidelines" did RM not follow?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 14:36:07
A coup does not have to be delivered by force, I suspect that in forming that view you have been manipulated by others.

The voices in SRK's head say otherwise.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 14:53:10
The voices in SRK's head say otherwise.


At least those voices are mine, yours are all coming from remain self interest groups.
Keep spouting what your told, there's a good little citizen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 15:31:46
At least those voices are mine, yours are all coming from remain self interest groups.
Keep spouting what your told, there's a good little citizen.

Do you honestly think that people like Rees-Mogg, IDS, Redwood, Tim Martin and James Dyson are all doing this for the public good?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 15:40:58
At least those voices are mine, yours are all coming from remain self interest groups.
Keep spouting what your told, there's a good little citizen.

Do you honestly think that people like Rees-Mogg, IDS, Redwood, Tim Martin and James Dyson are all doing this for the public good?

The double standards here are astonishing.

  • Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Redwood etc. = men of the people!  A luta continua!
  • Anyone supporting close co-operation with their nearest neighbours = The Liberal Elite/self-interest groups


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 15:49:38
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/7cbd7abdb6529888ea68c49c5cad0a475909c75a/0_160_4800_2880/master/4800.jpg?width=300&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=7a539174064efa0cde05cbd29499fae4)

There certainly are self-interest groups involved in this debate.  That much I can agree with.  But (in my humble view), they tend to be wealthy, white, male, middle-aged and Tory.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 16:00:50
Do you honestly think that people like Rees-Mogg, IDS, Redwood, Tim Martin and James Dyson are all doing this for the public good?
I don't. Much the same as I don't think Branson, miller, Hammond, etc are doing it in the public good.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 17:50:28
The BoE shouldn't be involving itself in politics. Considering they are meant to be impartial. That is, if they wish to retain economic integrity. Mark Carney probably doesn't give a hoot anyway - he leaves next June.

I'm a "remainer" but as Chalkie mentioned. Make this fair to a degree and give us forecasts on the best possible outcomes too. If there aren't any positive outcomes to forecast, then bloody well say as it is.

This would not have been such an issue, if the report didn't come out on the same day as the Treasury's analysis.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 18:27:01
The double standards here are astonishing.

  • Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Redwood etc. = men of the people!  A luta continua!
  • Anyone supporting close co-operation with their nearest neighbours = The Liberal Elite/self-interest groups
Do you think Phony Blaire,hesseltine,medlesome,cleg,clarke,branson,etc,etc are doing it for anything other than their own enrichment! For fucks sake wake up and smell the coffee.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 18:31:28
Quote from: Ardiles
Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Redwood etc. = men of the people! 

Men of the people of Sloane Square and Mayfair.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 18:44:48
Men of the people of Sloane Square and Mayfair.
[/quote
I know Moggy well and he much prefers Bath to Sloane square.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 18:50:22
in that case, tell him he's a self serving cunt from me. thanks


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 19:24:04
in that case, tell him he's a self serving cunt from me. thanks
Corby knows that he's a self serving cunt, never had a job in his life. Infact you'd be hard pressed to find any of them that aren't self serving.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 20:03:03
I spent two hours in the company of Rees-Mogg in 2015.  He was taller and thinner than I imagined with particularly lavish nasal hair.  He was distinctly odd in that he seemed anxious/flustered by meeting new people and apparently found it difficult to look you in the eye when he spoke to you.  That said, I also saw how, when he listened to us plebs speak, he could feign interest with the best of them.  I could see how some people could be charmed by him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, November 29, 2018, 20:30:34
I may not have been clear. We've been given different worst case scenarios for different options. What I'd like to see is their best case scenario for no deal as well as what they think the likeliest outcome of no deal will be. That would enable us to more accurately assess the worst case scenario rather than that being the one quoted. The problem is that this worst case scenario will be treated with scorn and an update on project fear. Sadly, I've got a stats background and want to compare.

We've already had the best case "No Deal" outcome: By paying no money to the EU we can instead pay an extra £350 million per week into the NHS. Not sure who came up with that one but it sounds amazing to me!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Friday, November 30, 2018, 18:39:11
That said, I also saw how, when he listened to us plebs speak, he could feign interest with the best of them.  I could see how some people could be charmed by him.

Isn’t being a silver-tongued-charlatan a prerequisite for being a politician?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, November 30, 2018, 19:49:54
Isn’t being a silver-tongued-charlatan a prerequisite for being a politician?

Absolutely. I’ve met quite a few MPs through work. To a greater or lesser extent, most of them can be quite charming. If you’ve ever seen Veep, Selena Meyer shows this characteristic whilst absolutely loathing most of the proles she meets. I suspect the reality is very similar


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dogs on Saturday, December 1, 2018, 01:45:01
I've met Mogg via Justin Tomlinson. He appears to be a good bloke but then obviously, as above, what else is he going to be like? I will always use the motto of 'don't trust anybody'. Let alone politicians.

My personal take on the likes of Mogg, Farage and even Corbyn, is that there are dark undertones to their policies and beliefs. Obviously as a peon you just accept it and vote for the lesser evil.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Saturday, December 1, 2018, 10:05:45
The double standards here are astonishing.

  • Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Redwood etc. = men of the people!  A luta continua!
  • Anyone supporting close co-operation with their nearest neighbours = The Liberal Elite/self-interest groups

Problem is that you are observing pretty much exactly the same double standards. 

You make absurd ad hominen attacks on people you don't like; all politicians seek to appeal to large swathes of the electorate and by those standards certainly Rees Mogg and probably Redmond make far less claim to be a man of the people than virtually any other British politician. 

You then make an equally absurd generalisation implying that their opponents have a monopoly on wanting to co-operate with their neighbours.  Virtually everyone wants to co-operate with Europe, just with differing views as to how that is best achieved in Britain's long term interests.

Maybe I'm naïve but I think that most people hold the position that they do on our EU membership in the genuine belief that that viewpoint is best for Britain.  I think that it is a big mistake to leave the EU but I don't believe that everyone who does think so is a racist, xenophobic, selfish upper class twit who hates the people of this country.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, December 1, 2018, 11:39:11
You really are stretching things a little in attempting to equate the desire for close co-operation with our nearest neighbours of politicians advocating a hard Brexit (which, by definition, involves minimal cooperation with our nearest neighbours) with the desire of those wishing to remain in the EU for close cooperation with our nearest neighbours.  So actually...I do think you are being a little naive.  (Sorry.)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, December 1, 2018, 11:49:35
The race and xenophobia card was used to exploit grievances unrelated to the EU.

There were genuine grievances relating to dwindling access to public services, especially the NHS and Housing.  Immigration from the rest of the world possibly affected this .  

EU27 migration put the Government in a far better position to fund public services.  Average contributions per head to the Exchequer for 2016 (you know, the "magic money tree") were as follows:

EU 27 migrants:                             PLUS 2,000 GBP
Rest of the World migrants:             MINUS 800 GBP
Native Brits                                    MINUS 100 GBP.  

Before even taking into account the doctors and nurses and carers, EU Migrants were the only group funding public services.  We have full employment and the EU Migrants came to work.  Thank you, EU 27 :)

Most deny having been misled etc, some more humble admit serious shortcomings.  IMO, perfectly informed people spun and exploited core resentment over services and their use by migrants to be about migration in general to include EU migration.  

Not everyone will have gone for the refined "control" argument devoid of the migrant queue-jumper resentment emotion.  

Unless there is something uniquely non-racist/xenophobic about the UK, it is naïve to think that did not play a part.  Upon their deceit, some leavers like Farage now trumpet "the Will of the People".  Perhaps but look at a small but crucial part of that majority.  Not in my name, Nige.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, December 1, 2018, 11:55:49
...but I think that most people hold the position that they do on our EU membership in the genuine belief that that viewpoint is best for Britain.

And on this point, you are clearly more trusting than I am.  It's my firm belief that the right wing of the Tory party is in favour of placing as much distance between the UK and the EU as it can so that it can strip away employment rights and consumer protections in an (as near as possible) unfettered free market.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.  In such a scenario, the wealthy would become wealthier and those who rely most on those protections - generally those at the lower end of the income scale - would pay most.  It would widen inequality.

So I don't think they are doing what would be 'best for Britain' at all, and I don't think that they themselves believe that either.  I appreciate that these views will not be shared by everyone - but I'm not prepared to go down the road of giving equivalence to the motives of everyone in this debate.  Some have malign intentions, and that needs to be confronted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, December 1, 2018, 11:56:06
Got to say, those Frogs know how to protest.

Back to Brexit, some Professor of Economics Patrick Minford, has come up with figures stating a no deal Brexit would cost the EU far more than the UK.

‘BRITAIN would benefit from “some £651billion in all” if Theresa May was to walk away from the negotiating table and quit the European Union with no deal – handing Brussels devastating financial loses, according to a leading economist.’

Is there enough egg to go round when this damn thing finally ends?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, December 1, 2018, 13:19:40
Got to say, those Frogs know how to protest.

Back to Brexit, some Professor of Economics Patrick Minford, has come up with figures stating a no deal Brexit would cost the EU far more than the UK.

‘BRITAIN would benefit from “some £651billion in all” if Theresa May was to walk away from the negotiating table and quit the European Union with no deal – handing Brussels devastating financial loses, according to a leading economist.’

Is there enough egg to go round when this damn thing finally ends?
So we've been paying in billions for the EU to get more from us than we do them?
I can see the economic benefit of remain now, there isn't any, unless you snout is in the EU trough.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, December 1, 2018, 14:23:36
Back to Brexit, some Professor of Economics Patrick Minford, has come up with figures stating a no deal Brexit would cost the EU far more than the UK.
Minford is very fringe - he was one of Thatcher's gurus in the 70s and early 80s but since then has moved ever further to the extremes, so that even Thatcherites now find him a bit of an embarrassment. If the Brexiteers are wheeling him out, it's a bit like seeking credibility for quack medicine from the "MMR causes Autism" doctor.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, December 1, 2018, 14:27:04
Good luck with Minford's dystopian deregulated world of imported lead paint soldiers, noxious vehicles, decimated UK manufacturing but with a kindly, indulgent EU neighbour giving up its own regulation to accommodate its plucky UK neighbour's exports.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Saturday, December 1, 2018, 14:39:27
And on this point, you are clearly more trusting than I am.  
.........
 Some have malign intentions, and that needs to be confronted.

You may be right, and I accept that my viewpoint that "people's intentions are generally good even if I think they are misplaced" is optimistic.

The problem is that so many people are going down your line that their point of view is decent whilst alternative viewpoints are malignant and dishonest.  Every conceivable option has a majority vehemently opposed to it albeit for widely varying reasons.  

We are tearing ourselves apart in much the same way that the US is over Trump.  



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, December 1, 2018, 15:11:02
You may be right, and I accept that my viewpoint that "people's intentions are generally good even if I think they are misplaced" is optimistic.

The problem is that so many people are going down your line that their point of view is decent whilst alternative viewpoints are malignant and dishonest.  Every conceivable option has a majority vehemently opposed to it albeit for widely varying reasons.  

We are tearing ourselves apart in much the same way that the US is over Trump.  


Those tearing us apart are the ones who even with a 9 million pound advantage lost the referendum and now wish to ignore the result. Like Gina Millar, who said to her 10 year daughter, I'll stop the UK leaving the EU,because it made her little girl unhappy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, December 1, 2018, 15:38:49
Those tearing us apart are the ones who even with a 9 million pound advantage lost the referendum and now wish to ignore the result. Like Gina Millar, who said to her 10 year daughter, I'll stop the UK leaving the EU,because it made her little girl unhappy.

Let's try again shall we.... we're leaving the EU in  March.  You probably don't remember but GM, got the court to state that Parliament should have a say in the Brexit process.... which they took by voting overwhelmingly to activate Art 50.  That set in process the negotiations to decide under what terms we exit.... David Davis, a leading Brexiteer was in charge of this, and we've arrived with May's deal.  If Parliament votes down the deal, then unless as is highly likely the can is kicked down the road for a bit longer, we'll default to no deal in March.

Nobody is ignoring the result....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, December 1, 2018, 18:00:11
Those tearing us apart are the ones who even with a 9 million pound advantage lost the referendum and now wish to ignore the result. Like Gina Millar, who said to her 10 year daughter, I'll stop the UK leaving the EU,because it made her little girl unhappy.
Interesting claim you make about Gina Miller.


Out of rather sceptical interest, do you know the family or have a source for your claim?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, December 1, 2018, 19:33:11
Interesting claim you make about Gina Miller.


Out of rather sceptical interest, do you know the family or have a source for your claim?

Yeah I know Gina well and we've spent many an hour debating why she feels she can stop brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 11:21:55
I spoke to gina today and she said that in her interview with Sly news, she confirms that due to her court case the UK will have to leave in March 29th, on WT terms, everything else would be illegal. She's broken hearted but sends her best wishes to the town and its supporters for today's FA cup match.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 14:07:02
No deal will not happen.  Parliament won't let it, and there's no majority for it in the country either.  Anyone who wants it that badly will need to stick on a ballot paper as an option and see where it gets them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 16:15:07
No deal will not happen.  Parliament won't let it, and there's no majority for it in the country either.  Anyone who wants it that badly will need to stick on a ballot paper as an option and see where it gets them.
That's what it said on the last ballot paper accept the deal or leave the EU! not Brino,another deal,Norway light or any other tied to and ruled by the EU option.When you ticked remain didn't you read the ballot paper It said,take dave's deal or leave the EU. it wasn't multi choice. I bet your in favour of another referendum without leave as an option.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 16:59:37
Yeah I know Gina well and we've spent many an hour debating why she feels she can stop brexit.


What does she make of you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 17:01:41
That's what it said on the last ballot paper accept the deal or leave the EU! not Brino,another deal,Norway light or any other tied to and ruled by the EU option.When you ticked remain didn't you read the ballot paper It said,take dave's deal or leave the EU. it wasn't multi choice. I bet your in favour of another referendum without leave as an option.

Wrong on all counts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 17:18:29
What does she make of you?
She said I was a political genius.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 17:20:07
Wrong on all counts.
Is it, so what did the ballot paper you voted on say leave, maybe leave a little,leave in name only? Come on tell me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 17:28:43
Is it, so what did the ballot paper you voted on say leave, maybe leave a little,leave in name only? Come on tell me.
Because your a remainer and as such a little slow here's twat it said.     

The ballot paper which will allow voters to cast their vote on the future of the UK's relationship with the EU has been published by the government.

It asks people if they would like to remain or leave the European Union and to choose their option by placing a cross in one of two boxes.

That difficult choice must have confused you, but it clearly says one of 2 choices,remain or leave. Oh yes leave won.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 17:31:11
It said leave or remain. It didn't say how.

#### me, this is tedious.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 17:37:54
We will leave.  But it won't be via May's deal and it won't be  without a deal.  In all probability, there will be some form of soft Brexit involving continued customs union membership.

Trade deals, single market membership and customs union membership were not on the ballot.  As well you know.

Let's move on now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 17:39:25
he knew what we were voting for


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 17:45:53
We will leave.  But it won't be via May's deal and it won't be  without a deal.  In all probability, there will be some form of soft Brexit involving continued customs union membership.

Trade deals, single market membership and customs union membership were not on the ballot.  As well you know.

Let's move on now.
No lets not move on,any form of customs union will be remain unless its time limited.You know that, customs union means laws and eu dominace prevail.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 17:57:51
Incorrect.  It's perfectly possible to exist outside the EU and to come to a Customs Union arrangement.  Ask Turkey.

Your statement above is nothing more than a wishlist in your head.  No one has ever voted on anything to do with a Customs Union.  Please stop making things up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 18:11:32
Incorrect.  It's perfectly possible to exist outside the EU and to come to a Customs Union arrangement.  Ask Turkey.

Your statement above is nothing more than a wishlist in your head.  No one has ever voted on anything to do with a Customs Union.  Please stop making things up.

Ken is right on this one it’s you who is way off the mark.

The vote was to leave- membership of the customs union is one central pillar of membership: you can’t make your own trade deals, and you’re bound by EU rules. In no way is that what leave voters voted leave for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 18:14:46
The vote was a binary vote on EU membership - in or out.  Everything else is open to interpretation.  By definition.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 18:15:02
they knew what they voted for


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 18:15:57
they knew what they voted for

:)

Shame it wasn't on the ballot paper.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 18:19:15
or the side of a bus.

or explained by one of the main leave campaigners, the ones that ran away from it all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 18:39:28
She said I was a political genius.

Given you vehemently disagree with her views on her political views, I take it you regard this as very insulting to you


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 19:07:24
Given you vehemently disagree with her views on her political views, I take it you regard this as very insulting to you
No not at all, she can see another persons view but being paid by Sorros is swinging it for her.
Why bat for the truth when you can bank a cool £250k to carry out someone elses wishes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 21:00:05
No not at all, she can see another persons view but being paid by Sorros is swinging it for her.
Why bat for the truth when you can bank a cool £250k to carry out someone elses wishes.

So who’s paying you? Surely you can’t be such a tedious troll purely for your own entertainment?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 21:46:24
So who’s paying you? Surely you can’t be such a tedious troll purely for your own entertainment?
Fucking right I can, its been brilliant fun. One in the eye for all those hive spouting commies.I've loved it but then again, being retired and in my 60's what else is there in the way of entertainment.Sit through X factor or the royal variety performance.Please see this from my side.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Sunday, December 2, 2018, 23:07:48
Fucking right I can, its been brilliant fun. One in the eye for all those hive spouting commies.I've loved it but then again, being retired and in my 60's what else is there in the way of entertainment.Sit through X factor or the royal variety performance.Please see this from my side.

You could give euthanasia a go.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, December 3, 2018, 00:10:11
You could give euthanasia a go.
That's probably on the list to ensure we remain


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, December 3, 2018, 02:33:23
That's probably on the list to ensure we remain

Because the first 2 letters spell EU?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, December 3, 2018, 07:59:59
You could give euthanasia a go.
Bit of a nasty suggesstion but why don't you go first, i'll watch and after your dead, decided whether its a good idea.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, December 3, 2018, 08:03:01
Because the first 2 letters spell EU?
See the fuckers have got their tentacles into everything including our language. You wait a few years and more words will beging in EU. It's already started with brexit voters being called eucunt


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, December 3, 2018, 12:47:23
What I do find a bit funny, and ironic, is the complaints about the deal being worked on by Parliament.  The vote was to Leave the EU, not to have an anti-EU Government, that party lost in a General Election quite easily.  If our elected parties take control of our sovereignty, and decide to make no changes in UK law, then tough shit.  We got our "power" back, and used it as we saw fit.  Vote for someone else at the next Election - this was the great fallacy, that our Govt. was any more likely to do what the populace fancied than the EU would.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, December 3, 2018, 14:00:41
What I do find a bit funny, and ironic, is the complaints about the deal being worked on by Parliament.  The vote was to Leave the EU, not to have an anti-EU Government, that party lost in a General Election quite easily.  If our elected parties take control of our sovereignty, and decide to make no changes in UK law, then tough shit.  We got our "power" back, and used it as we saw fit.  Vote for someone else at the next Election - this was the great fallacy, that our Govt. was any more likely to do what the populace fancied than the EU would.
The tragedy in all this is that our government has to bow down to the eu at all. Never has the populace been asked if our national government should seek approval from another body, for permission to act in a manner chosen by the people. Infact ted heath was told that it was illegal at the time but he signed us in for his £30k bonus and in one stroke of his pen, gave away our fishing rights.France then dumped tons of apples on the UK market resulting in the loss of our orchards many  of which we're closed down.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, December 3, 2018, 14:19:48
The tragedy in all this is that our government has to bow down to the eu at all. Never has the populace been asked if our national government should seek approval from another body, for permission to act in a manner chosen by the people. Infact ted heath was told that it was illegal at the time but he signed us in for his £30k bonus and in one stroke of his pen, gave away our fishing rights.France then dumped tons of apples on the UK market resulting in the loss of our orchards many  of which we're closed down.

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/2952144e76e88bcdb80b4e062d253dc5/tumblr_mwgts4Np4o1r3yxp8o2_400.gif)

Bonkers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, December 3, 2018, 14:41:38
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/2952144e76e88bcdb80b4e062d253dc5/tumblr_mwgts4Np4o1r3yxp8o2_400.gif)

Bonkers.
Yeah that's a pretty fucked up clip of drug induced animation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 16:55:11
Government found in contempt of parliament


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 17:00:30
Government found in contempt of parliament

We live in interesting times.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 17:01:09
What does this actually mean, as in what next?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 17:06:07
What does this actually mean, as in what next?

I am not sure anyone really knows, bar they have to publish the document that for whatever reason they were desperate no one see, has it ever actually happened before?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 17:16:29
It’s a first. I think the problem now is what other government documents can be withheld - or really, made to be published.

This not only truly fucks the Tories but it has implications for every government in the future.

Bloody right, too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 17:16:39
I don't know....edit: think it's the first time!

er...interesting indeed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 17:22:50
Democracy is alive and well in this developed nation. "The Thick of It" really did get it bang on the head.

Suppose it's not really the first time. It's likely the first time they've been caught.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 17:29:12
There could be a double Lammy (see what I did there) if Grieve's amendment gets passed later...

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1069934958217781249


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 17:34:58
There could be a double Lammy (see what I did there) if Grieve's amendment gets passed later...

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1069934958217781249

If I read his analysis right, this could effectively give parliament the vote to overrule anything in the agreement, particularly "no deal".

Not only is that sensible, it would drive SRK potty. Win-win


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 17:36:57
If we end up remaining, I wonder how much this fiasco has cost.

I voted Leave but not for this horlicks


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 17:39:33
I can't see us remaining, sadly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 17:46:04
There could be a double Lammy (see what I did there) if Grieve's amendment gets passed later...

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1069934958217781249

And now it has.

Today was the day that hard Brexit was taken off the table.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 17:48:49
I can't see us remaining, sadly.
I can't see us leaving sadly, any type of leaving. Theres enough going on to tackle leave in many directions. The can will be kicked down the road and the EU will screw us over. The only real card we had to play was no deal and we didn't play it and now we can't really. The Tories have spectacularly fucked up time and time again from Cameron asking the EU for fuck all and getting less to Mays current pile of shit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 17:49:01
@ Ardiles: Thank goodness.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 17:55:13
yay!!! (what am I yaying about?)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 18:06:52
If I read his analysis right, this could effectively give parliament the vote to overrule anything in the agreement, particularly "no deal".

Not only is that sensible, it would drive SRK potty. Win-win
yeah and you'll be happy in living in a country which doesn't respect the will of a majority. Welcome to our new banana republic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 18:07:16
If we end up remaining, I wonder how much this fiasco has cost.


Billions. Plus a fuck-ton of political clout in Europe (and elsewhere)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 18:12:03
yeah and you'll be happy in living in a country which doesn't respect the will of a majority. Welcome to our new banana republic.

People knew what they were voting for, the Government to implement Brexit. And that's what they are doing. Bit late to complain that the sovereignty you crave is now not doing what you want.

And besides, if Boris, Gove and JRM had any balls after Cameron fucked off it may have been different. But they didn't.

You voted for it, suck it up like the rest of us.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 18:34:49
If I read his analysis right, this could effectively give parliament the vote to overrule anything in the agreement, particularly "no deal".

Not only is that sensible, it would drive SRK potty. Win-win

Here Here!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 22:41:06
The people who believe they are 'winning' at any given point start gloating.

The people who believe they are 'losing' at any given point start whining.

Unfortunately we're all losing all the way through this sorry mess.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 09:36:46
There is an accounting term, opportunity cost, defined as a benefit, profit, or value of something that must be given up to acquire or achieve something else.  It's very apt here.  The opportunity cost of Brexit is collosal, because Brexit has swamped everything else.  When we look back on the late 2010s in a few years from now, we'll see it as a time of stagnation where very many things stood still or were forgotten.  What ever happens next, there is going to be a huge rebuilding job needed at some point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 09:57:55
Nice to see that after two year our parliamentarians have finally woken up and remembered what their purpose actually is, there were some actually quite good speeches last night, perhaps there is hope yet.

I would imagine May is not that disappointed this morning as it allows her to bring the hard line nutters on board to possibly support her dreadful deal or risk either no brexit or another vote?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 10:02:16
It'll be interesting which way the hard line nuts go now.

Seems Hard Brexit is ever more unlikely. On one hand some would want May's brexit over no brexit, but on the other Mays deal is so unpalatable to them that one or two have even said no Brexit is preferable.

Its either a genius strategy we are seeing being played out that will see something better rise, or a total clusterfuck of a clueless mess.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 10:15:23
It'll be interesting which way the hard line nuts go now.

Seems Hard Brexit is ever more unlikely. On one hand some would want May's brexit over no brexit, but on the other Mays deal is so unpalatable to them that one or two have even said no Brexit is preferable.

Its either a genius strategy we are seeing being played out that will see something better rise, or a total clusterfuck of a clueless mess.

The cynic in me would suspect a lot will depend on whether the deal can be revised to opt us out of the stricter tax avoidance/management controls being rolled out by the EU as that appears to be one of the reasons why the Tories are so desperate to get us out (or their backers at least)?

I don't really see where May can take any credit in this situation, it wasn't genius unless she played an incredibly long game deliberately stabbing Dominic Grieve in the back in the summer and lining him up to not believe her bullshit a second time around.

My money is on 'total clusterfuck of a clueless mess' and parliament finally growing a pair and remembering that history might not look too fondly on parliamentarians who led the country to an economic position that even the governments own forecasts stated would leave the majority worse off with no benefits to really speak of (IMO - I am no great fan of the EU, but I like having a job, I don't want to be worse off and want my kids to have the opportunities to work and travel I had).

In more broad terms I recall it being all about taking back control and securing parliamentary sovereignty and it was proven last night that despite the last few months parliamentary sovereignty is still alive and well, a happy day for everyone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 10:32:55
I am no great fan of the EU, but I like having a job, I don't want to be worse off and want my kids to have the opportunities to work and travel I had.

I have to quote this line of your post.  Really strikes a chord.  In a polarising debate that forces people to take a position on a binary issue, it can often be forgotten that there are many shades of grey in the middle.  Many of us arguing for remain are doing so because, on balance, that's where our judgment lies.  Like you - and many on the opposing side no doubt - I also have issues with the EU.  It's far from perfect.  But I have far greater problems with being on the outside and with the consequences of that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 10:34:19
I don't disagree with any of that Horlock/Ardiles


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 10:50:27
I have to quote this line of your post.  Really strikes a chord.  In a polarising debate that forces people to take a position on a binary issue, it can often be forgotten that there are many shades of grey in the middle.  Many of us arguing for remain are doing so because, on balance, that's where our judgment lies.  Like you - and many on the opposing side no doubt - I also have issues with the EU.  It's far from perfect.  But I have far greater problems with being on the outside and with the consequences of that.

Yes, sage words.  UK was never fully in the EU, and can never be fully out.

This is like a John Beck v Pulis/Allardyce long ball argument about % ages. We'll probably end up with something like a Dyche version.  Greater cultural purity, but out of the Europa League at the qualifying stages, after failures in Greece and Turkey, and Scotland regarded as a foreign country.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 11:02:14
I don't disagree with any of that Horlock/Ardiles

I should hope not, remember Soros pays me a fortune to write it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 11:21:46
bloody puppet


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 11:47:07
The problem is that there is no majority in parliament for any of the options that may be available.

Mays Brexit
No Brexit
No deal at all
Second referendum
Norway style arrangement



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 11:55:05
Well there's going to have to be a majority for some option after 2.5 years.

Rather than bother with referendum 2.0 (and a repeat of months of nauseating lying) could we just not have a draw (FA Cup - style) with Audrey's options and agree to stick with it.

I reckon there'd be a far bigger tv audience than for any sick-making Sunday night "debate"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 12:01:14
every Brexit faction puts up a champion.

 The house of commons is turned into the Thunderdome, 2MPs in, 1MP out. 

Ties can be calculated FA Cup style.

There can be only 1.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 12:01:33
The problem is that there is no majority in parliament for any of the options that may be available.

Mays Brexit
No Brexit
No deal at all
Second referendum
Norway style arrangement

No way of proving this, but I did hear some arguing that the Norway option possibly would be able to attract a majority.  Norway Plus basically = continued Customs Union & Single Market membership.  Problematic, certainly, but emerging as a possible end point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 12:12:58
As a Remainer, that would be my second choice.

Nevertheless, Norway (Single Market) and Plus (Customs Union) looks awfully like the EU itself without the voting.  There's free movement and although the ECJ has no direct role there's little or no control on the rules of the Single Market.


It would be an absolute winner for business and would satisfy the Good Friday Agreement.  

For committed (but reasonable) leavers, I guess the challenge would be how we could exit the EEA Plus arrrrangement and presumably there may still be the same restrictions on NI being able to leave with the rest of the UK.

These arguments about the EU will be with us for decades regardless of the immediate outcome.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 12:16:41
No way of proving this, but I did hear some arguing that the Norway option possibly would be able to attract a majority.  Norway Plus basically = continued Customs Union & Single Market membership.  Problematic, certainly, but emerging as a possible end point.

Not sure what the point is of leaving if we then basically join the EFTA? The elephant in the room for many, free movement, would remain unaltered and we would become a rule taker not maker. OK fishing would come back (0.5% of GDP - less than the bicycle industry in the UK) , but we export most of the fish we catch and import most we eat so its just creating ballache for the sake of it and it would take us outside of the CAP which again seems using a sledgehammer to crack a nut as whilst we do pay more in than we take out, farmers would still need to be supported from somewhere, and Goves direction of travel is all a bit tree huggy for many?

BTW not sure why Norway gets all the plaudits, what about Iceland and Liechtenstein?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 12:25:36
 Will Norway have to sign up to the EU Army.... I was chatting to a SRK style Brexiteer last week, who was convinced that May's deal means his son will be conscripted into an EU Army, this seems to be the latest shibboleth of the far right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 12:28:11
Not sure what the point is of leaving if we then basically join the EFTA? The elephant in the room for many, free movement, would remain unaltered and we would become a rule taker not maker. OK fishing would come back (0.5% of GDP - less than the bicycle industry in the UK) , but we export most of the fish we catch and import most we eat so its just creating ballache for the sake of it and it would take us outside of the CAP which again seems using a sledgehammer to crack a nut as whilst we do pay more in than we take out, farmers would still need to be supported from somewhere, and Goves direction of travel is all a bit tree huggy for many?

BTW not sure why Norway gets all the plaudits, what about Iceland and Liechtenstein?

...which, in a nutshell, is why I voted to remain.  A hard Brexit was always going to be nearly impossible to achieve, and extremely damaging if it was somehow achieved.  We're linked economically and institutionally with our nearest neighbours whether we like it or not.  That's the geopolitical reality.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 12:51:20
There is a surprising divergence between the Government's full legal advice on Brexit and the previously released summary of it. Who would have thunk it.....  ::) There seems to be nothing in there to support their argument that it shouldn't be released and coincidentally :hmmm: its dated the same day that labour got the motion through for it to be released to parliament?

And after all of yesterday, Magic Grandpa didn't mention Brexit once in PMQ's....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 13:06:45
There is a surprising divergence between the Government's full legal advice on Brexit and the previously released summary of it. Who would have thunk it.....  ::)

Soooooo, I guess the only way forwards for her deal is to get the indefinite nature of the backstop remove and add self removal from it as an option.

But isn't that going to be a bit tricky given Ireland, and could it also be used to force a hard Brexit in effect.

I mean not that we will need it, because negotiating will be easy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 13:11:51
Soooooo, I guess the only way forwards for her deal is to get the indefinite nature of the backstop remove and add self removal from it as an option.

But isn't that going to be a bit tricky given Ireland, and could it also be used to force a hard Brexit in effect.

I mean not that we will need it, because negotiating will be easy.

Which the EU is highly unlikely to agree to as they have tied us in knots entirely of Mrs May's own making!

They held 90% of the cards from day one (despite all the bollocks about blessed are the German car makers, they will save us'), but when she invoked A50 with no plan or idea of what the Conservative Party (its got nowt to do with 'the people', lets be honest) want she basically threw the pack of cards in the bin and pulled out Top Trumps Paw Patrol edition!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 14:58:00
No way of proving this, but I did hear some arguing that the Norway option possibly would be able to attract a majority.  Norway Plus basically = continued Customs Union & Single Market membership.  Problematic, certainly, but emerging as a possible end point.

Yes that's where Oliver Letwin and others are going.  Question is whether a deal that no-one really likes but most MPs don't totally hate can get through.  I also heard that the EU wouldn't agree to it but I don't understand why not.

The option that surely is supported by a majority of MPs in their hearts is a 2nd referendum in the belief that enough of the leave voters would 'have come to their senses" as they see it.    I doubt, however, that enough of them would be prepared to publicly vote that way and risk the wrath of their leaver constituents unless things got so bad that they could invoke some kind of national interest line.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 15:02:55
BTW not sure why Norway gets all the plaudits, what about Iceland and Liechtenstein?

I imagine it's because Norway is at least a recognisable country.  Difficult to see how "don't worry, we can be just like Liechtenstein" could pass the laughter test.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 15:03:05
She has genuinely said something, kicked off about Leave.EU using her quote and is now denouncing the tweet, quoting her quote, all within a couple of hours... Sadly they do not walk among us, they actually seem to be ruling us....

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtqKPnmW0AEohGE.jpg)

You will also note the careful imposition of George Soros in the background of the tweet, a nice artistic touch which has an air of Emmanuel Goldstein, but remember there is not at all, whatsoever, any sort of antisemitic angle to certain elements of the Brexit campaign. ::)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 15:07:32
I imagine it's because Norway is at least a recognisable country.  Difficult to see how "don't worry, we can be just like Liechtenstein" could pass the laughter test.

Au contraire, Liechenstein's low tax status is just the sort of thing Brexiteers crave, we could be Liechtenstein-on-Sea


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 15:08:12
Yes that's where Oliver Letwin and others are going.  Question is whether a deal that no-one really likes but most MPs don't totally hate can get through.  I also heard that the EU wouldn't agree to it but I don't understand why not.

I suspect its the plus bit where it starts getting rather cherry picking, which goes against the all in or out manner of being a member?


The option that surely is supported by a majority of MPs in their hearts is a 2nd referendum in the belief that enough of the leave voters would 'have come to their senses" as they see it.    I doubt, however, that enough of them would be prepared to publicly vote that way and risk the wrath of their leaver constituents unless things got so bad that they could invoke some kind of national interest line.


Does rather represent a get out of jail free option for them?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 15:13:54
I can't see how allowing free movement, needed for norway+,  wouldn't cause a sizeable backlash among many leave voters.

It would of course be tough tits, but the next GE would be interesting.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 08:12:55
Freedom of movement seemed to be the driving force behind the vote to Leave.

Strangely, it’s not as simple as I thought. I was under the impression you could just rock up in any EU country of your choice and that was that.

Not so. I’m moving to Greece soon - before 29 March, anyway! - and if I intend to stay longer than 183 days - which I do - I have to apply for a Residency Permit.

Amongst other things, I have to prove I have a minimum income of €24,000 pa, have health insurance and prove I own a property or have a rental agreement. This isn’t just a Greek thing, it’s EU wide.

So, with these provisos, surely freedom of movement could, and should, stop a lot of the seemingly uncontrolled immigration that so many Leavers moan about.

Or is Government just not applying these rules. Obviously the income requirement would vary from country to country depending on the cost of living.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 08:38:29
We've always had that level of control.
And over half of immigration comes from outside the EU.
And  many EU immigrants are useful, skilled workers (e.g. NHS).
And many that aren't work in jobs we don't want to do for shit wages and zero hours contracts (sports direct warehouse, car washes)

But on the down side, they have funny accents and some of them don't have white skin.
OK some are squeezing industries by driving down prices for work, undercutting the indigenous worker. But I wonder what % that really is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 08:42:15
Radio 4 this morning was a treat of why we, the people shouldn't decide. We are largely idiots.

Paraphrasing:
"yeah, we should get a businessman to do the negotiating. Alan Sugar, he'd get a good deal"
"The EU have made it hard. They aren't a Union at all, they're a big gang. I'm even more sure we should leave."
"We should rock up and say no deal, then turn our backs and walk out. You'd have 27 countries running over the hills to negotiate a deal"



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 09:32:46
Freedom of movement seemed to be the driving force behind the vote to Leave.

Strangely, it’s not as simple as I thought. I was under the impression you could just rock up in any EU country of your choice and that was that.

Not so. I’m moving to Greece soon - before 29 March, anyway! - and if I intend to stay longer than 183 days - which I do - I have to apply for a Residency Permit.

Amongst other things, I have to prove I have a minimum income of €24,000 pa, have health insurance and prove I own a property or have a rental agreement. This isn’t just a Greek thing, it’s EU wide.

So, with these provisos, surely freedom of movement could, and should, stop a lot of the seemingly uncontrolled immigration that so many Leavers moan about.

Or is Government just not applying these rules. Obviously the income requirement would vary from country to country depending on the cost of living.

Does that really apply to EU people moving to the UK for an extended period?   £24k min income!  Health Insurance!!!!!

I have never heard of this and can't believe that it is simply that UK Govt has chosen not to apply rules.  This would surely have come up as part of the "people flooding in and undercutting Brits" argument?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 09:39:55
actually I've made a rather large assumption that Greece's immigration requirements are available EU wide.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 09:43:07
Does that really apply to EU people moving to the UK for an extended period?   £24k min income!  Health Insurance!!!!!

I have never heard of this and can't believe that it is simply that UK Govt has chosen not to apply rules.  This would surely have come up as part of the "people flooding in and undercutting Brits" argument?

We have exactly the same ability to impose such rules, just our governments have chosen not to for various reasons.

If people have a problem with immigration, its a problem that should be taken up with our government not the EU. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 09:45:50
actually we do have similar rules if you want to stay permanently, (though I can't see explicitly where it says this says to EU citizens, I can't see where it says the opposite either)

https://www.gov.uk/uk-family-visa/proof-income


I guess we have the right to work in Greece in non permanent/non residency rules  just like everyone


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 09:54:44
Radio 4 this morning was a treat of why we, the people shouldn't decide. We are largely idiots.

Paraphrasing:
"yeah, we should get a businessman to do the negotiating. Alan Sugar, he'd get a good deal"
"The EU have made it hard. They aren't a Union at all, they're a big gang. I'm even more sure we should leave."
"We should rock up and say no deal, then turn our backs and walk out. You'd have 27 countries running over the hills to negotiate a deal"

Did you stay on to listen to Humphreys interview Theresa May at 08:10?  The Maybot needs a reboot.  It was painful to listen to.  No vision, no passion, no message to the listening public.  Just a tired litany of soundbites and jargon.  Left you with the impression that there's no one in charge.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 10:02:07
Does that really apply to EU people moving to the UK for an extended period?   £24k min income!  Health Insurance!!!!!

I have never heard of this and can't believe that it is simply that UK Govt has chosen not to apply rules.  This would surely have come up as part of the "people flooding in and undercutting Brits" argument?
Here it is

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/documents-formalities/registering-residence/index_en.htm


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 10:20:38
Did you stay on to listen to Humphreys interview Theresa May at 08:10?  The Maybot needs a reboot.  It was painful to listen to.  No vision, no passion, no message to the listening public.  Just a tired litany of soundbites and jargon.  Left you with the impression that there's no one in charge.

No, I was in work by then. Thankfully.

Quote
Left you with the impression that there's no one in charge.

When Brexit secretaries resign over Brexit negotiations I think its fair to say May was in charge. I don't mean that in a positive way either.

Now....They're going to have to pull a full warren out the hat to get a deal through.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 10:40:33
Did you stay on to listen to Humphreys interview Theresa May at 08:10?  The Maybot needs a reboot.  It was painful to listen to.  No vision, no passion, no message to the listening public.  Just a tired litany of soundbites and jargon.  Left you with the impression that there's no one in charge.

I genuinely fear for her, she looks dreadful (if you compare pictures of 2016 and now this is aging her in front of our eyes) and has the charisma of a dead fish.

One of the pleasing things about the debate the other night was discovering that there are actually some younger MP's with a bit of charisma and fire in their bellies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 10:56:11
Unfortunately MP's start off like that and end up like May or equivalent.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 11:49:17
It's 100% true that we have always had the ability to control EU migration but successive governments chose not to. It's actually worse than that because we don't even record who is coming or going.

Once again a problem that people ascribe to the EU is a wholly domestic problem that has been blamed on the EU bogeyman because it was politically convenient to the government of the time.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/31/britain-take-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit
http://lawyers-inforbritain.uk/b-m-a/can-the-uk-control-its-borders-if-it-remains-in-the-eu/
https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 12:32:07
So was this ever in bold on the side of the remain bus, if not why not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 12:38:48
Probably because Cameron was a complacent prick who underestimated the public feeling.

Though there was this from  Home Secretary May under Cameron

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/media/images/70628000/jpg/_70628962_hi019581045.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 13:04:13
So how does that square with those that insist she is a remainder, albeit a lightweight one


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 13:06:42
So was this ever in bold on the side of the remain bus, if not why not.
touche!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 13:26:46
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/47682451_564266227372227_7075178825897738240_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=f47d9fd6d33d8df1a73c283d670382ff&oe=5CA6DBF8)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 13:28:31
Probably because Cameron was a complacent prick who underestimated the public feeling.


Indeed, something like this video should have been released pre June 2016...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYonSZ8s3_o


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 17:59:55
Its the normally Tory supporting YouGov which makes it even more shocking...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtvznM4W4AEwhm6.jpg:large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, December 6, 2018, 18:19:30
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/47682451_564266227372227_7075178825897738240_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=f47d9fd6d33d8df1a73c283d670382ff&oe=5CA6DBF8)


Gold.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, December 7, 2018, 09:37:23
Indeed, something like this video should have been released pre June 2016...


Messages like this were continuously pushed out pre-referendum and they didn't resonate enough to win the vote.  I'd cite two reasons.

Firstly, people believed what they wanted to believe.  On most issues people generally use the facts to help shape their beliefs but not on this one.  Brexit is rather like the capital punishment debate, most people have an entrenched viewpoint and then pick the facts that play to that viewpoint.

Secondly, in their desire to counter the appalling lies and distortions of the Leave campaign (showing my own prejudice here) the Remain campaign underplayed and massaged some of the realities of the EU and where it is heading.  It is already exponentially more federal than when we voted to remain in 1975 and many EU bureaucrats are quite open about their intent to move inexorably to a fully federal Europe.  They do intend to expand eastwards and it's not unreasonable to assume that Turkey joining is a 'when not if' debate.  People could see that.  Pretending in nice gentle Stephen Fry terms that this isn't the case was at best a stretching of reality and it gave people the excuse to dismiss the rest of the case even though it is solidly grounded in facts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Friday, December 7, 2018, 09:42:43
See you folks, sat on a plane about to take off as I’m emigrating to spain . Getting residency before you fuckwits implode. Shove your Brexit up your arse.

You have 4 months left of free movement then you’re all fucked


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, December 7, 2018, 09:44:26
Fair enough.  Hope Spain works out well for you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 7, 2018, 09:49:05
What you going to do out there Mex? Opening a pub?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, December 7, 2018, 10:16:43
See you folks, sat on a plane about to take off as I’m emigrating to spain . Getting residency before you fuckwits implode. Shove your Brexit up your arse.

You have 4 months left of free movement then you’re all fucked

Good luck with whatever you are doing out there el-Mex


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Friday, December 7, 2018, 10:34:26
Did you stay on to listen to Humphreys interview Theresa May at 08:10?  The Maybot needs a reboot.  It was painful to listen to.  No vision, no passion, no message to the listening public.  Just a tired litany of soundbites and jargon.  Left you with the impression that there's no one in charge.

Mr. Humprhys (correct spelling) should be put out to grass. He is awful. Let someone else have a chance in the state-run morning brainwashing exercise.

Also get rid of that cunt David Attenborough and get some fresh blood in on natural history programmes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 7, 2018, 12:01:06
Its the normally Tory supporting YouGov which makes it even more shocking...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtvznM4W4AEwhm6.jpg:large)


While I'm sympathetic to the cause, I do think that this presentation could be construed as misleading.  It gives the impression that most of the country now supports Remain - but, of the three options shown, if you were to amalgamate the two Leave options (Deal & No Deal), the picture would be rather different.  If there was a single transferable vote ballot on these three options, I would imagine that No Deal would drop off the ballot first and that most of the votes for that option would be reallocated to Deal.  (Pure guesswork, though.)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Friday, December 7, 2018, 13:35:10
in more shocking news, someone with entrenched views posts possibly biased information.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Friday, December 7, 2018, 13:36:43
See you folks, sat on a plane about to take off as I’m emigrating to spain . Getting residency before you fuckwits implode. Shove your Brexit up your arse.

You have 4 months left of free movement then you’re all fucked

Good luck, see you if and when you need the health service or come to retire


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 7, 2018, 13:48:34
I was thinking last evening, Mrs May is now making much that she can negotiate a deal with her party MP's to support her deal, but how is she planning to do this as she cannot change the heads of terms of an agreement without the agreement of the other side (the EU) and how is she going to achieve anything on that basis prior to next Tuesday, so ultimately any agreement with MP's is going to be on a 'you are going to have to trust me on this' basis, I cannot see Dominic Grieve for instance giving her the time of day after she has already shown herself to be something of a stranger to the truth?

In other news I see Priti Patel is now suggesting that we starve Ireland into supporting our position and the RHA are a little bit concerned, although what do they know... https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1070615160727986176 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, December 7, 2018, 17:59:56
Dumb question alert

This backstop - why can’t there just be an open border with no checks. Goods flow as they do now. Why does being out of the EU means there has to be checks?

This also applies to any border issue. If all countries want frictionless trade just allow things to flow as they do now.

Nobody benefits or is it just the EU making it as difficult as possible.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, December 7, 2018, 18:06:42
On Trade - will boil down to having regulations in place that match the receiving country - so we'd have to agree to match EU laws to enable good to be traded without checking them.  Also tariff's.

The trickier thing would be movement of people though - unless you want a totally open border?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, December 7, 2018, 18:12:58
 But if you take Switzerland, there are no huge delays entering and exiting into/out of EU countries.

If nobody is actually checking whatever regulations are in place now why and how would things change just because we are no longer in.

As for immigration. There never has been checks on people between Ireland and the UK


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 7, 2018, 19:29:43
Dumb question alert

This backstop - why can’t there just be an open border with no checks. Goods flow as they do now. Why does being out of the EU means there has to be checks?

This also applies to any border issue. If all countries want frictionless trade just allow things to flow as they do now.

Nobody benefits or is it just the EU making it as difficult as possible.

Because it's one of the UK's red lines!  One of the main Brexit objectives, so we're told, is to 'take back control of our borders'.  So leaving the border wide open = the complete opposite of the Leave/Brexit vision entails.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, December 7, 2018, 19:36:49
If only we had used the threat of food shortages in Ireland to force the EU into a better deal.

Think of all the food bank photo oppertunities too


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Friday, December 7, 2018, 19:57:36
Good luck, see you if and when you need the health service or come to retire

If you work in spain regardless of what country you are from ( worldwide) you are entitled to free healthcare

Spanish national pension are triple the amount of the uk equivalents


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, December 7, 2018, 20:08:16
If only we had used the threat of food shortages in Ireland to force the EU into a better deal.

Think of all the food bank photo opportunities too

Starving the Irish is a little insensitive.

I guess Priti Patel's ancestors can at least be exempted from any responsibility for the Potato Famines.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Saturday, December 8, 2018, 10:37:33
Starving the Irish is a little insensitive.

I guess Priti Patel's ancestors can at least be exempted from any responsibility for the Potato Famines.


Freedom of movement of people was more common in bygone days than people might think. One of my ancestors was half-Irish and half-native American. His name was Tom O'Hawk.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, December 8, 2018, 17:21:33
Freedom of movement of people was more common in bygone days than people might think. One of my ancestors was half-Irish and half-native American. His name was Tom O'Hawk.

I'm sure he had an explosive personality.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, December 8, 2018, 19:40:04
I'm sure he had an explosive personality.
And a very large chopper.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Sunday, December 9, 2018, 07:44:36
What are the new manager's political leanings? Will some supporters boycott games because of them? Will sponsors pull out because of them?

NO. Coz it's got fuck all to do them, just like with any previous manager.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Sunday, December 9, 2018, 08:37:02
Depends if he’s got a fascist dictator tattooed on his Arm who was to all intent and purposes involved in killing a supporters grandfather . Stop being a trolling prick


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Sunday, December 9, 2018, 08:45:56
Duce coochie man!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Sunday, December 9, 2018, 11:19:09
North Swindon Labour Party candidate Kate Linnegar currently on Sunday Politics West on BBC West.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 10, 2018, 08:51:01
Not sure it's going to make a difference. But the ECJ says we can cancell Brexit unilaterally.

After being reassured by many this wasn't the case, I suppose it proves what we all suspected, nobody understands Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Monday, December 10, 2018, 08:55:30
Got a people's vote leaflet shoved through my letterbox yesterday.

Made a whole series of claims about money that would be saved by remaining (translated into new hospitals and nurses of course, as is the fashion these days) whilst omitting to net off that unsubstantiated gross figure with the amount that would be saved from our current net contribution to the EU.  If I had bothered to read all the way to the end there would probably have been several totally non-ironic references to the appallingly misleading claims made by the leave campaign back in 2016.

You know something is a piece of shit when the people who voted your way are no better than the people who voted against.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 10, 2018, 09:03:15
Very disappointing Pax. Have they learned nothing?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, December 10, 2018, 09:50:15
Not sure it's going to make a difference. But the ECJ says we can cancell Brexit unilaterally.

After being reassured by many this wasn't the case, I suppose it proves what we all suspected, nobody understands Brexit.
Of course people understand Brexit, it means we leave the eu. Only remainers trying to cloud the issue and make it look an impossible task, say no one understands. We've had a referendum, Leave won, my good friend Gina Millar forced the government to pass it into law. If we don't leave then we all know we no longer live in a democracy and voting is a waste of time and money. The Junta should just instruct us what our lot is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 10, 2018, 10:09:27
under Mays deal we do leave the EU.. eventually..

I guess you are supporting that


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 10, 2018, 10:34:17
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48269095_1773927372719026_6244114349317685248_n.png?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=ddc6e030cb5bf9e3df8c0dd9660d7e7e&oe=5C65456F)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, December 10, 2018, 10:48:19
under Mays deal we do leave the EU.. eventually..

I guess you are supporting that
"Eventually" when? its a tie in and the eu can just keep us a paying members forever with no veto or vote.Treason may said she's been working for the eu to present this deal and she has. The woman wanted to remain and that's what she doing along with her uncivil service they've got the deal the eu wants not what the uk voted for.So no I'm not supporting that and neither is her party, they stood at the general election on a leave ticket. How many more times does it need to be spelt out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 10, 2018, 10:51:04
"Eventually" when? its a tie in and the eu can just keep us a paying members forever with no veto or vote.Treason may said she's been working for the eu to present this deal and she has. The woman wanted to remain and that's what she doing along with her uncivil service they've got the deal the eu wants not what the uk voted for.So no I'm not supporting that and neither is her party, they stood at the general election on a leave ticket. How many more times does it need to be spelt out.

Bloody hell, breathe man....

Oh well its looking evermore like either a new referendum or we remain as people won't vote for her deal and parliament are unlikely to allow no deal....



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 10, 2018, 11:34:53
Not sure it's going to make a difference. But the ECJ says we can cancell Brexit unilaterally.

After being reassured by many this wasn't the case, I suppose it proves what we all suspected, nobody understands Brexit.

To me the key question remains, why did the government strenuously try to stop this case from being heard and wasted tens if not hundreds of thousands of taxpayers money in the process?

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...ng-shows-the-ecj-respects-sovereignty-more-th


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 10, 2018, 11:48:36
Quote from: Sir red ken
So no I'm not supporting that and neither is her party, they stood at the general election on a leave ticket. How many more times does it need to be spelt out.

ok. So now what?

I assume you are ok with the deal, but with a backstop that is somehow bound in duration?

The only way it seems a no deal is going through is via a people's vote. Parliament doesn't want it. That's democracy and sovereignty for you.

so what do you want.
  - ammended deal
  - people's vote?


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 10, 2018, 11:51:48
Quote
To me the key question remains, why did the government strenuously try to stop this case from being heard and wasted tens if not hundreds of thousands of taxpayers money in the process?

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...ng-shows-the-ecj-respects-sovereignty-more-th (http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...ng-shows-the-ecj-respects-sovereignty-more-th)
self preservation?

didn't want no deal left as an option, thereby protecting "the will of the people" (tm) and removing the "undemocratic" (tm) option of asking the people if the deal negotiated is really what they want.

because even if it's the right thing to do logically, it'll kill their hard right vote


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, December 10, 2018, 12:10:33
The £ is now going through floor.  Lowest level for over 12 months.

Whatever happens next, the Tories' have wrecked their reputation for economic competence.  Just as well that there is likely to be some sort of political realignment, because I can't see them coming back from this.

Take away fiscal prudence/small government, and what are the Conservatives for, anyway?  Why do they even still exist?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, December 10, 2018, 12:29:35
May delays the vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 10, 2018, 12:37:49
May cancels the vote.

Delays dear boy, until when is anybodies bloody guess?

We have to have something sorted ASAP, the embarrassing thing is that 27 countries have managed to agree, yet one political party cannot!



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 10, 2018, 12:44:40
edit: Doh, didn't refresh before posting.. As above ^^^^^^

It's my way or no way. There is no re-negotiating the  deal...

Oh, hold on a minute,I may get humiliated, lets delay it a bit

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46509288


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, December 10, 2018, 12:46:33
Bloody hell, breathe man....

Oh well its looking evermore like either a new referendum or we remain as people won't vote for her deal and parliament are unlikely to allow no deal....


So what happend to the leave people voted for on the ballot paper?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, December 10, 2018, 12:47:44
Obviously, this isnt the leave anyone wants.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, December 10, 2018, 12:48:21
This is beyond parody now.  Project = undeliverable.  Country = rudderless.  Leaders = absent.

Shameful.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, December 10, 2018, 12:48:53
So what happend to the leave people voted for on the ballot paper?

It never existed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, December 10, 2018, 12:53:56
It never existed.
Oh it did, clearly on the ballot paper. Remain on daves shitty deal or leave the eu. You must have seen that?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 10, 2018, 12:56:51
may has given you a version of leave.

don't like it, suck it up buttercup, it's what you voted for


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 10, 2018, 13:04:22
Its now being suggested that she cannot pull the vote unless parliament votes to pull the vote - no really!  :D

In case there were any misconceptions that she is still in any manner of control...

No 10 said this morning

- vote not being pulled - now it’s being pulled
- PM confident of winning vote - clearly not
- no PM statement today - now there is one

If it wasn't all our futures they were playing with it would be beyond hilarious!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, December 10, 2018, 13:14:54
Oh it did, clearly on the ballot paper. Remain on daves shitty deal or leave the eu. You must have seen that?

Agree to a point.  The Leave vote was an instruction to government to leave the EU.  Government then has to find a way of doing that, and the negotiated deal is the result.

The No Deal departure that some Leave supporters are now putting forward could never be take seriously by any government.  Most (on both sides of the debate) can see the reasons for this.

The 'elephant in the room' is that the negotiation was never going to be a negotiation.  It was always going to be an exercise in the UK agreeing to the terms put forward by its much larger neighbour.  That's not because Theresa May is a Remainer or a weak leader (although she is both).  It's because when you 'negotiate' with someone who's 8 or 9 times bigger than you are, you won't get much of a say in the final outcome.  And committed Leaver would have fared no better.  A lot of us realised this at the very outset...which is why there is a lot of face palm around today.

Call it realpolitik if you want.  Like it or not, we have to have a close relationship with other European countries - and it's foolish to pretend otherwise.  If we do leave the EU, the inevitable consequence is that the UK will become a rule taker...at least for as long as the EU remains a coherent political entity.  There are strains there, certainly.  But it's there for now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 10, 2018, 13:20:18
Its now being suggested that she cannot pull the vote unless parliament votes to pull the vote - no really!  :D

Very funny Horlock, 6/10, must try harder.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Monday, December 10, 2018, 14:09:41
Its now being suggested that she cannot pull the vote unless parliament votes to pull the vote - no really!  :D

In case there were any misconceptions that she is still in any manner of control...

No 10 said this morning

- vote not being pulled - now it’s being pulled
- PM confident of winning vote - clearly not
- no PM statement today - now there is one

If it wasn't all our futures they were playing with it would be beyond hilarious!

It's not as if this political misinformation is new

1. There are WMD - There weren't any
2. We aren't leaving the IMF - We crashed out
3. Boom and Bust is over - It wasn't
4. We won't introduce student fees - They were.

As an Irish comedian once said - There's more


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, December 10, 2018, 14:12:09
may has given you a version of leave.

don't like it, suck it up buttercup, it's what you voted for
Or "You won, get over it" perhaps?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 10, 2018, 14:17:08
Very funny Horlock, 6/10, must try harder.

Don't Blame me, see https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1072121925227438080

It's not as if this political misinformation is new

1. There are WMD - There weren't any
2. We aren't leaving the IMF - We crashed out
3. Boom and Bust is over - It wasn't
4. We won't introduce student fees - They were.

As an Irish comedian once said - There's more

Although those you rightly mention did not collapse merely in a couple of hours!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 10, 2018, 16:11:27
Dennis Skinner really has become a sad caricature of himself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, December 10, 2018, 16:34:16
Oh it did, clearly on the ballot paper. Remain on daves shitty deal or leave the eu. You must have seen that?


The vote was as follows:

48% are united in wanting to remain as a member of the EU

runners up wanting to leave EU membership:-

a few percent want no deal,
a few percent Norway,
a few percent Norway plus,
a few percent want Turkey
a few percent want Switzerland,
a few percent Canada
a few percent Canada Plus
a few percent want cake and
a few percent want unicorns

There are 52 ways to leave but no unity on which way:

You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 10, 2018, 16:49:44
So now no.10 now saying that there will be no vote to delay the vote which is rather contrary to the Speakers advice?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, December 10, 2018, 18:02:27
Today will forever be remembered not as the day that Theresa May delayed the vote on her Brexit deal, but as the day she openly discussed premature ejaculation in the chamber of the House of Commons.

Stay strong, people.  It can get no worse than this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Monday, December 10, 2018, 18:34:51
  It can get no worse than this.

If only that were true


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Monday, December 10, 2018, 18:38:19
Putting this off because she doesn't like the (expected) outcome is somewhat like us saying, nah we don't think we will beat Grimsby on Saturday, can't we play them some other time?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, December 10, 2018, 18:44:00
Putting this off because she doesn't like the (expected) outcome is somewhat like us saying, nah we don't think we will beat Grimsby on Saturday, can't we play them some other time?

🤔 Looks suspiciously like the remain 48% asking for a rerun because the result was not what they wanted/expected. Hardly surprising this was likely to be kicked into touch. So many differing factions in the HOC on all sides with their own ideas as to what the Brexit deal should look like, combined with a pro remain PM, cabinet and Whitehall mandarins it has been exposed as a remain deal shoddily dressed up to look like a leave deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 10, 2018, 18:57:13
this is what you voted for


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, December 10, 2018, 19:09:52
Exactly, good olde sovereignty, getting power back into the hands of the elected officials of the UK , enabling them to do what's best for the old Dame Blighty.  I think UKIP stood at the last election on a Hard Brexit stance, maybe they should have received more votes if people were worried their MP's wouldn't do what they wanted them to do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, December 10, 2018, 19:12:34
And if someone stands at the next Election with a policy idea of building a wall on the Irish border, with the EU paying for it of course, then I assume it will be a landslide.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, December 10, 2018, 21:11:13
this is what you voted for
Don’t talk out your arse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, December 10, 2018, 21:21:15
He isn't.  This is all there ever was.

This is what you voted for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, December 10, 2018, 21:39:10
He isn't.  This is all there ever was.

This is what you voted for.
And you


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Monday, December 10, 2018, 21:40:24
And if someone stands at the next Election with a policy idea of building a wall on the Irish border, with the EU paying for it of course, then I assume it will be a landslide.
The wall would fall down if there was a landslide!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, December 10, 2018, 21:54:39
And you

You voted to get our Sovereignty back, and Parliament is showing exactly what that means - you get people who you voted for who represent you and make decisions for you in Government.  UKIP is probably where people need to vote if they want the complete Hard Brexit enacted, the Conservatives were not that far down the road as a group and Labour MP's would probably ask to rejoin the EU.  Tho choice was yours, UKIP got how many MP's?  We get the Govt we deserve now. no EU excuses.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, December 10, 2018, 21:57:40
You too


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 07:17:44
Quote from: Legends-Lounge
Quote
this is what you voted for
Don’t talk out your arse.

we are leaving the EU. people knew what they voted for. Taking back control.

This is parliament in action. Oh wait, its not perfect and is quite self serving. Well, what a shock. Same old shit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 08:32:56
You too

Excellent debating skills


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 09:02:19
Don’t talk out your arse.

we are leaving the EU. people knew what they voted for. Taking back control.

This is parliament in action. Oh wait, its not perfect and is quite self serving. Well, what a shock. Same old shit.

It's almost as if the problem was actually our government and MPs all along and the EU was more a convenient shibboleth for the likes of Johnson and Gove to make cheap political capital out of.

Yes, I know there's loads wrong with the EU, and there is a cogent argument for leaving it, although it wasn't made during the referendum campaign, but there's been so much shit spoken about "taking back control" and "sovereignty of our parliament" by people who are now balking at the prospect that parliament might assert it's sovereignty.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 09:43:36
You voted to get our Sovereignty back, and Parliament is showing exactly what that means - you get people who you voted for who represent you and make decisions for you in Government.  UKIP is probably where people need to vote if they want the complete Hard Brexit enacted, the Conservatives were not that far down the road as a group and Labour MP's would probably ask to rejoin the EU.  Tho choice was yours, UKIP got how many MP's?  We get the Govt we deserve now. no EU excuses.

Actually the main thing that has come out of the last couple of days is to reinforce that we always had sovereignty and never actually 'lost it', sadly its taken the hated ECJ to rule against our government, who wanted to hide things from parliament and the people and perpetuate the myth, to prove that point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 09:47:39
It's almost as if the problem was actually our government and MPs all along and the EU was more a convenient shibboleth for the likes of Johnson and Gove to make cheap political capital out of.

Yes, I know there's loads wrong with the EU, and there is a cogent argument for leaving it, although it wasn't made during the referendum campaign, but there's been so much shit spoken about "taking back control" and "sovereignty of our parliament" by people who are now balking at the prospect that parliament might assert it's sovereignty.

I think the fact that during the 'debate' yesterday afternoon*, all that May could retort to comments regarding her own governments projections noting a financial shit storm was, but we are stopping free movement (they ain't!) rather shows a) where her priorities actually lie and b) what she thinks is the only way of dragging this sorry carcas over the line.

* Watched about an hour of it and good god, who would be a MP, hours of showboating, Dennis Skinner being a belligerent knob and the same questions and answers over and over again, even Bercow was viably losing the will to live by the end of it!

I hope we do get a vote of no confidence today, although can we possibly extend it to a vote of no confidence in the opposition as well?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 09:51:44
I think the fact that during the 'debate' yesterday afternoon*, all that May could retort to comments regarding her own governments projections noting a financial shit storm was, but we are stopping free movement (they ain't!) rather shows a) where her priorities actually lie and b) what she thinks is the only way of dragging this sorry carcas over the line.
tbf, Brexit was always a political rather than economic project - i.e. it is a political move that carries a financial cost rather than bringing economic benefits, that was always a load of bullshit on a bus. Those that believe in Brexit think that cost is a hit worth taking for the political benefits they desire (and possibly hoping to offset some of it further down the line). Where you stand on Brexit is really about that - are the political benefits actually benefits and if so are they worth the economic pain?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 12:14:30
tbf, Brexit was always a political rather than economic project - i.e. it is a political move that carries a financial cost rather than bringing economic benefits, that was always a load of bullshit on a bus. Those that believe in Brexit think that cost is a hit worth taking for the political benefits they desire (and possibly hoping to offset some of it further down the line). Where you stand on Brexit is really about that - are the political benefits actually benefits and if so are they worth the economic pain?

Spot on...
 
"Non-Footy Forum / The Nevillew General Discussion Forum / Re: Let's Get Political!
on: Tuesday, February 27, 2018, 18:23:56
Started by herthab, Message by Combe Up
Relevance: 43.3%
I'm with chalk. I voted to leave because the end game for Europe is political union. Thank you all who voted the same way. We got out while we could. If that means some personal financial pain for me or my country then it will be worth it."



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 12:29:06
Funny that "economic pain" was not predicted by Leavers before the referendum. 

There were no leave campaigners, callers, posters, tweeters etc asserting "it will be well worth the pain" before the referendum.

The premiss was that Leave would bring in decent money from saved EU contributions coupled with the advantageous effect of trade deals with mainly white ex-colonies and the USA.

As a bonus, we could look forward to the "easiest deal in history" with the EU because we "held all the cards". Nothing before the referendum about joining Mauritania and trading on WTO terms only.  If that is the outcome, I really do hope more than 50% will feel they have "got their lives back"



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 12:42:58
Funny that "economic pain" was not predicted by Leavers before the referendum. 

There were no leave campaigners, callers, posters, tweeters etc asserting "it will be well worth the pain" before the referendum.

The premiss was that Leave would bring in decent money from saved EU contributions coupled with the advantageous effect of trade deals with mainly white ex-colonies and the USA.

As a bonus, we could look forward to the "easiest deal in history" with the EU because we "held all the cards". Nothing before the referendum about joining Mauritania and trading on WTO terms only.  If that is the outcome, I really do hope more than 50% will feel they have "got their lives back"

I think the economic hit was pretty well outlined during the Ref debate period.... the only issue was how much and for how long.

That the lumpen mass of Brexiteers thought it worth making most of themselves poorer, in order to get a handle on immigration is impressive... OK it's a shame that most of the rest of us will get poorer, but that's the way it goes.

The irony is as I pointed out somewhere early in the debate, it won't make much differnce to immigration, which is mainly from outside the EU. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 14:24:12
uncontrolled EU immigration - down
controllable non EU immigration - up

I really believe that the market controls EU immigration very well.  That the ratio of job vacancies for skills needed here to the number of immigrants is a better, easier and cheaper control than civil servants relying on out of data Government data and internal directives.

Not as socialist as some  ;) and not as migrant-phobic as some others.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 15:31:37
After all the chaos, after all the public humiliation a Sky poll reveals that twice as many of the people polled think Mrs May would do a better job of Brexit than Corbyn.

Wow!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 15:34:02
uncontrolled EU immigration - down
controllable non EU immigration - up

I really believe that the market controls EU immigration very well.  That the ratio of job vacancies for skills needed here to the number of immigrants is a better, easier and cheaper control than civil servants relying on out of data Government data and internal directives.

Not as socialist as some  ;) and not as migrant-phobic as some others.

Which is precisely how the freedom of movement is supposed to work, bringing gradual balance to a wider market.  Obviously those in the UK, Germany and France would prefer to bring everyone else up, but it was always likely it would cause some richer countries to stifle wage growth (as they can source resources from lower cost EU countries).  At the same time, those poorer countries should have, and in some cases have seen, greater riches as a result.  Where the EU has failed, thus far, is how to manage those shifts in people - Poland reacted to the loss of their own people seeking improvement, and there own backfill with external migrants by moving Right, rather than understanding how to milk that system.  I know it's more complex than that, but the unwillingness to open up to the totality of the EU concept is what causes the pain, which I never saw changing in the UK, hence thinking getting out was the right thing for the country, politically.  You cannot possibly think it's good for the economy though, that just makes no sense.  The expansion of the economies of the Global Powers has been as a direct result of trade.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 15:37:31
After all the chaos, after all the public humiliation a Sky poll reveals that twice as many of the people polled think Mrs May would do a better job of Brexit than Corbyn.

Wow!

To be fair, he is carrying a party that would want to remain while holding the directly opposite view himself.  They'd be a mess as well.  UKIP would be the only party in Unison if in Govt. right now - they'd also have us going back about 10 centuries and moving towards segregation if their current overtures for Tommy Robinson are anything to go by.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 15:50:55
After all the chaos, after all the public humiliation a Sky poll reveals that twice as many of the people polled think Mrs May would do a better job of Brexit than Corbyn.

Wow!

That says more about Corbyn than flattering May I think..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 15:58:08
Corbyn has delayed and obfuscated for so long over Brexit now that very few people have confidence his ability (or his desire) to do anything about it.  He's all but removed himself from the debate.  He's a critic of the PM (just like everyone else), and nothing more.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 16:12:23
Which is why Labour are delaying a no confidence motion - they cant decide amongst themselves whether or not to back a 2nd referendum.

With all this chaos I think the only reasonable answer is a 2nd vote - as much as I hate to admit it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 16:25:06
Corbyn has delayed and obfuscated for so long over Brexit now that very few people have confidence his ability (or his desire) to do anything about it.  He's all but removed himself from the debate.  He's a critic of the PM (just like everyone else), and nothing more.

He is peddling the delusional crap that May has been peddling likewise, namely that a deal can be renegotiated within the next 4 months....

Magic Grandpa is as busted a flush as May is in this sorry shambles.

As for the idea that it would affect the way the rest of the world views Britain, hasn't that ship already sailed long ago, we signed up in December to the principle of a backstop and now are trying to wriggle out of it, May agrees various things in Brussels and then within a day various members of her government are saying we can choose to just ignore it, Johnson is now coming out again and saying we can just refuse to pay our bills and leave, and finally May agrees a formal withdrawal agreement and a couple of weeks later is back begging for it to be changed in our benefit!

I am not sure about the rest of the world not trusting us on international treaties, I would not buy something off EBay from Britain with our recent track record.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 16:27:34
Which is why Labour are delaying a no confidence motion - they cant decide amongst themselves whether or not to back a 2nd referendum.

With all this chaos I think the only reasonable answer is a 2nd vote - as much as I hate to admit it

They are delaying a no confidence motion as they are unlikely to get the 2/3 of parliament to support it as it would need a fair few Tories to vote no confidence in their own government to force it through, (thank Cameron for the FTP Act), there isn't going to be an election and unless Labour do something they are going to be as culpable as the Tories in this mess, at least with the Tories you always expect them to only care about the rich and screw the rest over, not sure whether Corbyn is just thick or just crazy!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 16:29:30
Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey
Which is why Labour are delaying a no confidence motion - they cant decide amongst themselves whether or not to back a 2nd referendum.

With all this chaos I think the only reasonable answer is a 2nd vote - as much as I hate to admit it


there's that.

And my own opinion is that Brexit is potentially so toxic to a party, that whoever implements whatever we get is going to alienate a lot of people. Party before county after all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 16:47:36
Corbyn has delayed and obfuscated for so long over Brexit now that very few people have confidence his ability (or his desire) to do anything about it.  He's all but removed himself from the debate.  He's a critic of the PM (just like everyone else), and nothing more.

The Labour Party has had no say in negotiations, therefore what the party policy is, and you can find it in the last election manifesto is of little relevance beyond a general outlining if coming to power, where an election is what 4 years off.... a week is a long time in politics.

The Brexit mess belongs solely to the Tories.... they called the Ref, many of them campaigned for out alongside such figures as Banks and Farage.

It isn't the Labour Party which is voting down May, rather her own MP's, the hard Brexit brigade are firmly on the right of the Tories.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 17:20:33
The Labour Party has had no say in negotiations, therefore what the party policy is, and you can find it in the last election manifesto is of little relevance beyond a general outlining if coming to power, where an election is what 4 years off.... a week is a long time in politics.

The Brexit mess belongs solely to the Tories.... they called the Ref, many of them campaigned for out alongside such figures as Banks and Farage.

It isn't the Labour Party which is voting down May, rather her own MP's, the hard Brexit brigade are firmly on the right of the Tories.

Agree with all that (& especially the bit in bold).  The Tories are rightly going to pay the heaviest price for the situation we are now in.  When they finally go, they could be out for a generation.  And when they come back at some point in the (hopefully distant) future, it could well be under a different name...so tainted/tarnished will the brand have become.

Not aiming to pin any of this mess on Corbyn.  But I am frustrated that he's not taking a more active role in finding a way out of it.  He seems happy enough to watch Theresa & pals roll around in their own s### while passing around the popcorn.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 18:35:31

Not aiming to pin any of this mess on Corbyn.  But I am frustrated that he's not taking a more active role in finding a way out of it.  He seems happy enough to watch Theresa & pals roll around in their own s### while passing around the popcorn.

Well it has an old and sensible adage but wasn't it Napoleon that said;

“Never interfere with your enemy when he is making a mistake.”

Indeed. Corbyn does not have to make any move. He didn't put us in this mess. The Tories did. Cameron to be exact - then he cut loose when it all went tits up billy ho.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 20:40:51
hints those 48 letters are in (or more).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 21:06:10
Corbyn keeping quiet is doing the exact same political game playing at the expense of the rest of the country that the tories are doing, and complete lack of leadership. I don’t understand how any labour voter can be happy with his approach (and he’d probably still be behind in the polls)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 22:02:22
hints those 48 letters are in (or more).

Hardly surprising is it? Been hanging on a thread for months.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, December 11, 2018, 22:55:59
… I know it's more complex than that, but the unwillingness to open up to the totality of the EU concept is what causes the pain, which I never saw changing in the UK, hence thinking getting out was the right thing for the country, politically.  You cannot possibly think it's good for the economy though, that just makes no sense.  The expansion of the economies of the Global Powers has been as a direct result of trade.

As you say, there is a Brit mentality which may commend us to be apart from the EU, politically.  There is evidence however of generational change from an independent to a more collaborative mentality.  Personally, I feel the younger generation's thinking could be better reflected in our mainstream media.

Economically, EU membership has been a massive aid to the UK, as you suggest.  For example, which country would you think has enjoyed the greatest per capita growth in GDP during our EU membership out of:

Germany?
The USA?
The UK?

Yes, us.  (and full credit to us, of course)

Compare that however to where most Brits would guess the UK to rank?  After a regretably negative diet of being told how EU regulation and red tape has held the UK back?








Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 08:50:30
Well, that's the 48 letters in then. And once more the greater interests of the country are sacrificed to the self-interests of the Conservative Party in sorting out their own internal mess. Or rather continuing to fail to do so. Well done.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: brocklesby red on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 08:52:04
So according to May, the Conservatives are the only party to reunite the country. Wasn’t it the Conservatives that divided the country in the first place by calling a referendum.She also claims that the only beneficiaries of tonight’s vote will be Corbyn and McDonald. I would suggest thatJohnson,Gove,Rudd,Davis et al might hope they will also benefit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 08:53:05
So according to May, the Conservatives are the only party to reunite the country.
The Conservatives can't even unite the Conservatives.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 09:08:06
Well, that's the 48 letters in then. And once more the greater interests of the country are sacrificed to the self-interests of the Conservative Party in sorting out their own internal mess. Or rather continuing to fail to do so. Well done.

Struggling with this comment. Are you seriously suggesting that the Torys get behind her? Her plan is shit, she is a terrible leader. I'm surprised they've given her this long.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 09:09:41
Struggling with this comment. Are you seriously suggesting that the Torys get behind her? Her plan is shit, she is a terrible leader. I'm surprised they've given her this long.
No, I'm suggesting that this is a continuation of the process started by Cameron to put the internal squabbles of the Tory party above the interests of the country. That's why we had the referendum and ended up in this mess.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 09:38:32
No, I'm suggesting that this is a continuation of the process started by Cameron to put the internal squabbles of the Tory party above the interests of the country. That's why we had the referendum and ended up in this mess.
Cameron won a general election with a manifesto pledge for an eu referendum. The country voted in favour of that action at the general election. How was he putting the squabbles of the Con party before the country when he put it to the UK and they voted for him. He then stuck to his pledge and held a referendum which leave won, the only mess is appointing a remainer to stop the process of leaving. Perhaps its better if we never ask the people to vote then we can stay where the globalist tell us we should.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 10:11:36
I think an alternative view would be that Cameron hoped to marginalise growing UKIP popularity by the referendum promise.  This succeeded.  What he had not perhaps anticipated was the collapse of the Lib Dem vote.  Expecting another Coalition, the view continues, Cameron thought the Lib Dems would prevent or block a referendum, leaving the Tory promise unbroken but also unfulfilled.

You have to recall that the Tory party was clearly majority remainer.  Many MPs change their spots like Brown changed formations and selections.  Watch a few more change their spots again now when, if as expected, a new leader emerges.  The contortions in the stated beliefs and loyalties of many Tory MP's looks set to make compulsive viewing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 10:19:18
I think an alternative view would be that Cameron hoped to marginalise growing UKIP popularity by the referendum promise.  This succeeded.  What he had not perhaps anticipated was the collapse of the Lib Dem vote.  Expecting another Coalition, the view continues, Cameron thought the Lib Dems would prevent block a referendum leaving the Tory promise unbroken.

SRK does make a fair point though... despite the machinations which led to this omnishambles, it was voted for, mostly within the rules of our democracy. So Tories and Brexiteers have got what they voted for.

 I said a while back the logic of the situation must be a hard Brexit, and presumably the new Tory PM, will have to deliver that.

 We'll be alright in Swindon though, as Tory led SBC has contingency plans in place for civil unrest, in case of no deal.

 Renard, wouldn't say what the plans are but he has got some  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 10:30:50
We'd have to agree to disagree about the logic of a hrad Brexit.  My view is that the referendum was explicitly about "membership" and there are many ways of being a non-member.  There are multiple views on what the Leave vote meant.

May hasn't lost yet but if she does, then my view would be that she has only given up the party leadership belt.  Her prime ministerial belt was legitimised by a GE in which the electorate handed the Tories largest single party status under her leadership.

I appreciate there is no constitutional necessity to call a GE where a leader changes but to achieve democrativ legitimacy, I believe this would be necessary.

I would not be comfortable with either alternative but I think Johnson would destroy Corbyn in a GE.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 10:32:36
I reckon Benny from Crossroads would destroy Corbyn in a GE.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 10:33:26
 :)

He might even beat "None of the above"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 10:34:50
Whilst I would hate to stand in the way of the Tory Party destroying itself, isn't there something a little more important they should be doing over the next few weeks?

They democratically decided that May should be leader in July 2016 and now they are changing their mind, I thought you were not allowed to change your mind in a democracy.

Best wishes,
Confused of Cumbria.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 10:43:55
Can you imagine the look on Mogg's face if May wins?  I'd pay good money to see that.  (Actually, I'd probably frame it.)  It might even prompt the ERG to go & do some 'research' for once.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 10:47:31
Can you imagine the look on Mogg's face if May wins?  I'd pay good money to see that.  (Actually, I'd probably frame it.)  It might even prompt the ERG to go & do some 'research' for once.

Reading elsewhere its been suggested that most in government will support her and thus that's around 100 votes in the bag, she only then needs c.50 out of 200 odd backbenchers to stumble over the line and Johnsons haircut will all have been in vain!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 10:50:22


 We'll be alright in Swindon though, as Tory led SBC has contingency plans in place for civil unrest, in case of no deal.

 Renard, wouldn't say what the plans are but he has got some  :)

They probably revolve around him hunkering down in some underground bunker below council offices.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 11:15:01
I reckon Benny from Crossroads would destroy Corbyn in a GE.

Not sure that this is the racing certainty that a lot of people like me lazily expected when he was elected.

He has avoided the Dianne Abbot style blunders that everyone anticipated, admittedly mainly by doing virtually nothing.

As for John McDonnell, I can't believe I am saying this but he has been really quite impressive.  Calm, measured and almost statesmanlike.  The fact that an idiot Marxist can look better than virtually everyone around him is the ultimate damning indictment of our politicians and in particular this Tory government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 11:26:29
Can you imagine the look on Mogg's face if May wins?  I'd pay good money to see that.  (Actually, I'd probably frame it.)  It might even prompt the ERG to go & do some 'research' for once.

Even if she does win she won't have full confidence of her party and the mandarins will likely convince her to resign. Whatever the result, there will still be some who don't accept the result and round the circle we go again


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 11:26:46
Whilst I would hate to stand in the way of the Tory Party destroying itself, isn't there something a little more important they should be doing over the next few weeks?

They democratically decided that May should be leader in July 2016 and now they are changing their mind, I thought you were not allowed to change your mind in a democracy.

Best wishes,
Confused of Cumbria.
She stood at the last election on a leave manifesto then ignored it, which means she isn't delivering the wishes of the electorate. So as a remaimer May has spent her time, as she said last week, working on behalf of the eu, against the wishes of the country. That's not democracy. Being able to replace her, if they can and honouring the wishes of the majority is democracy.Calling for a vote because you never won the last one isn't democracy. try keeping up and pay more attention.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 11:26:56
They probably revolve around him hunkering down in some underground bunker below council offices.

I think that's for nuclear attack... which I don't think is currently on the no-deal menu. The Force de Frappe, is still sizeable mind, and France is a bit volatile atm.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 11:29:13
The thing that I don't understand is who on earth would stand as the next tory leader at this point.

Why not let May stumble over the line and then pounce?

By going now they run a far greater risk of May winning and even if she falls then they inherit the poison chalice and are wide open to the accusation that they have put naked self-interest in front of the country's interest.  

Which incidentally is a charge that can also be levied at the labour party.  I guess that they would excuse their actions on the basis that helping to prolong the chaos in the short term is in the interests of the ordinary working people of this country (an arrogant condescending phrase if ever there was one) if it facilitates the subsequent election of a left wing labour government to lead us to the socialist nirvana.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 11:35:29
Not sure that this is the racing certainty that a lot of people like me lazily expected when he was elected.

He has avoided the Dianne Abbot style blunders that everyone anticipated, admittedly mainly by doing virtually nothing.

As for John McDonnell, I can't believe I am saying this but he has been really quite impressive.  Calm, measured and almost statesmanlike.  The fact that an idiot Marxist can look better than virtually everyone around him is the ultimate damning indictment of our politicians and in particular this Tory government.

A lot of the support for Magic Grandpa came from younger voters and many of these feel very betrayed by his inaction regarding Brexit so I think that support may not be available in a later election, much is made of the 500k members of the Labour Party but that means feck all if you cannot engage with the floating voter and Corbyn (like Milliband before him) seems entirely incapable of understanding this.

McDonnell rather frighteningly has made Corbyn look like the reactive protesting amateur he is in political terms, Labour need to at least engage with the more centre elements of the party to have much chance of being elected, they benefited in 2015 and 2017 by the collapse of the Lib Dem vote (exacerbated by the clever way they kept their Brexit cards close during 2017) again I suspect they might lose more of that support in any forthcoming election.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 11:38:06
The thing that I don't understand is who on earth would stand as the next tory leader at this point.

Why not let May stumble over the line and then pounce?

By going now they run a far greater risk of May winning and even if she falls then they inherit the poison chalice and are wide open to the accusation that they have put naked self-interest in front of the country's interest. 

Which incidentally is a charge that can also be levied at the labour party.  I guess that they would excuse their actions on the basis that helping to prolong the chaos in the short term is in the interests of the ordinary working people of this country (an arrogant condescending phrase if ever there was one) if it facilitates the subsequent election of a left wing labour government to lead us to the socialist nirvana.

Johnson is so desperate he will step in, as pointed out elsewhere his ambition would have led to him taking over as captain of the Titanic after it hit the iceberg!

Nice to see Davis releasing a plan for Brexit, if only he had had the chance to do this earlier!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 11:43:59
A lot of the support for Magic Grandpa came from younger voters and many of these feel very betrayed by his inaction regarding Brexit so I think that support may not be available in a later election, much is made of the 500k members of the Labour Party but that means feck all if you cannot engage with the floating voter and Corbyn (like Milliband before him) seems entirely incapable of understanding this.

McDonnell rather frighteningly has made Corbyn look like the reactive protesting amateur he is in political terms, Labour need to at least engage with the more centre elements of the party to have much chance of being elected, they benefited in 2015 and 2017 by the collapse of the Lib Dem vote (exacerbated by the clever way they kept their Brexit cards close during 2017) again I suspect they might lose more of that support in any forthcoming election.

That would be the same Lib Dem party that you actively supported, in their propping up of Cameron which led to the current mess.  However hard you try to dead cat the current state of affairs onto Corbyn, we're not imminently expecting a GE.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 12:06:22
I think that's for nuclear attack... which I don't think is currently on the no-deal menu. The Force de Frappe, is still sizeable mind, and France is a bit volatile atm.

There are probably some on both sides of the debate who wouldn't mind if the whole thing descended into a bit of fisticuffs.

Best part of 400 years since the last major civil dustup.
So we are overdue.
An EU peacekeeping force on the streets of Boston in Lincs.  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 12:11:13
That would be the same Lib Dem party that you actively supported, in their propping up of Cameron which led to the current mess.  However hard you try to dead cat the current state of affairs onto Corbyn, we're not imminently expecting a GE.

Getting the blame in early Reg, you have rather more in common with the Tories that you would dare to admit, although its been rather obvious to many of us observers with you unhealthy obsession with Maggie.  :D

Ultimately to try and suggest that Magic Grandpa is not, at least to a degree, culpable in the present shambles is cultist of the highest nature, his complete lack of opposition has facilitated their present 'do as they please' approach and however it is spun (and the spinning would do Campbell proud) is turning off floating voters who don't trust student politicians (or more accurately Seamus Milne)  to run the country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 12:15:23
There are probably some on both sides of the debate who wouldn't mind if the whole thing descended into a bit of fisticuffs.

Best part of 400 years since the last major civil dustup.
So we are overdue.
An EU peacekeeping force on the streets of Boston in Lincs.  :hmmm:

TBF, events in Ulster from circa from about 68-98 were pretty much a civil dust up.... an EU peace keeping force there would be handy in the event of no deal... they could person the custom's posts as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 18:30:15
 The much missed Rik Mayall..... his Alan B'Stard, just about got it right on being a Tory MP.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeiGLSy-1zU



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 18:39:52
Ultimately to try and suggest that Magic Grandpa is not, at least to a degree, culpable in the present shambles is cultist of the highest nature

Agree. A caller to LBC this morning had an interesting variant on this: he argued that Labour under Milliband, while supposedly pro-EU, failed to sell the benefits of Europe as strongly as Blair and Brown had done. Meaning that once the Referendum campaign began, the Leave campaign started off in a much stronger position (even more so after the Aaron Banks and other dodgy money swelled their coffers, and the Russian bots turbocharged their Facebook campaign).

I find it odd that the likes of David Lammie and Caroline Lucas haven't brought up the questionable legality of the referendum vote when they've been calling for a People's Vote. By the time the Met put handcuffs on Banks, it will probably be too late.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 18:48:24
Agree. A caller to LBC this morning had an interesting variant on this: he argued that Labour under Milliband, while supposedly pro-EU, failed to sell the benefits of Europe as strongly as Blair and Brown had done. Meaning that once the Referendum campaign began, the Leave campaign started off in a much stronger position (even more so after the Aaron Banks and other dodgy money swelled their coffers, and the Russian bots turbocharged their Facebook campaign).

I find it odd that the likes of David Lammie and Caroline Lucas haven't brought up the questionable legality of the referendum vote when they've been calling for a People's Vote. By the time the Met put handcuffs on Banks, it will probably be too late.
So what about the £9,000,000 leaflet to all households from the government. That wasn't covered in any remain referendum spending?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 20:58:24
200 v 117

quite a sizeable no confidence vote, but she'll carry on, it's the will of her party after all


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 21:17:33
I've just booked March 29th off work. Independence Day!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 21:18:37
200 v 117

quite a sizeable no confidence vote, but she'll carry on, it's the will of her party after all

2 of those Tories had the whip reinstated especially so they could vote, whilst currently suspended over sexual misbehaviour allegations.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 21:22:57
Which way did they vote?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 21:32:56
2 of those Tories had the whip reinstated especially so they could vote, whilst currently suspended over sexual misbehaviour allegations.

And?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 22:39:04
Quote from: Combe Up
Which way did they vote?
who knows, it's a secret ballot.

sextextpest said he was supporting May


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 23:04:41
The much missed Rik Mayall..... his Alan B'Stard, just about got it right on being a Tory MP.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeiGLSy-1zU



That never gets old.  Pretty sure Boris has modelled his speeches on this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 23:12:28
117 is a sizeable lack of confidence for her. She'll continue because she's a stubborn fish. Except this only leads me to think that the 117 gives support for Labour to call a Vote of No Confidence in the government.

The question is;

Why the fuck would anyone want to be the leader of the country, in this absolute shitter of a situation?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 07:04:39
The Tory MPs have voted up keep May as leader.  It's the will of Tory MPs


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 07:50:48
The Tory MPs have voted up keep May as leader.  It's the will of Tory MPs
I wanted May gone and that's not what happenend, so we need another vote, so we/I get the correct result this time.
I'm calling it the MP's vote, MP's never knew what they were voting for the first time. The people of westminster are to thick to understand the ballot paper. JRM overspent and now Westminster is facing a cliff edge, some MP's are very upset because they were promised unicorns. One day later everything is different because it hasn't rained yet, they couldn't have known this last night when voting. Unemployment will reach 50 million and we'll have no drinking water, food stocks will run out and circus clowns will stop visiting from europe due to visa restrictions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 08:07:37
I wanted May gone and that's not what happenend, so we need another vote, so we/I get the correct result this time.
I'm calling it the MP's vote, MP's never knew what they were voting for the first time. The people of westminster are to thick to understand the ballot paper. JRM overspent and now Westminster is facing a cliff edge, some MP's are very upset because they were promised unicorns. One day later everything is different because it hasn't rained yet, they couldn't have known this last night when voting. Unemployment will reach 50 million and we'll have no drinking water, food stocks will run out and circus clowns will stop visiting from europe due to visa restrictions.
It should be 'too thick'.  :toocool:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 08:11:39
I wanted May gone <snipped bullshit>

That was already the second vote. They voted for her once after Cameron left. It seems the Tory party are allowed to change their minds if something is shit.

JRM has already called on her to resign. Even with >60% of the vote. Its the will of the party she stays.

blah blah blah
====
Marvelous result. It puts the ERG back in their box for 12 months. She could of course be ousted by parliament anyway. Probably will.

But that's only going to remove risk of a harder Brexit, because our sovereign democracy parliament can see that a fools gold hard Brexit is the worst outcome for the United Kindom.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 09:38:18
That was already the second vote. They voted for her once after Cameron left. It seems the Tory party are allowed to change their minds if something is shit.

JRM has already called on her to resign. Even with >60% of the vote. Its the will of the party she stays.

blah blah blah
====
Marvelous result. It puts the ERG back in their box for 12 months. She could of course be ousted by parliament anyway. Probably will.

But that's only going to remove risk of a harder Brexit, because our sovereign democracy parliament can see that a fools gold hard Brexit is the worst outcome for the United Kindom.

That's the biggest pile of bollox I've ever read on this site! Fucking leftard garbage, bending the truth till it snaps to fit your own agenda.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 09:40:34
mwhahaha.

don't cry over JRM being a busted flush


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 10:16:23
2 of those Tories had the whip reinstated especially so they could vote, whilst currently suspended over sexual misbehaviour allegations.

When Theresa May is looking for Tory MPs to support her, Shes not looking for the best. You get people that have a lot of problems, and they bring those problems with them. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 10:19:17
mwhahaha.

don't cry over JRM being a busted flush

I bet there was a tearful and poignant cry of 'Nanny' through the corridors of Westminster around 9pm last night.

However they try to spin it, it was a crap result for May and further shows she has lost control of her party.

117 is a sizeable lack of confidence for her. She'll continue because she's a stubborn fish. Except this only leads me to think that the 117 gives support for Labour to call a Vote of No Confidence in the government.


A VONC would serve little purpose as I suspect it wouldn't pass, mainly as it would need some Tories to revolt and they would potentially be setting themselves up to fight an election that they might lose their seats in, never underestimate self preservation!

  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 10:32:48
However they try to spin it, it was a crap result for May and further shows she has lost control of her party.

It was, but at the same time it doesn't mean much.

She's admitted she's on borrowed time by not standing in the next GE.
She is not trusted by many ofher own party.
She still has the threat of being removed hanging over her, albeit a slightly lessened one from parliament.
She still has no chance of getting the withdrawal bill through without major legally binding changes.

So not much has changed in the now, except Boris and JRM have lost a bit of bleating power.

Back to the task at hand, outraging SRK,


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Quagmire on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 10:59:24
She basically saved her job last night by promising to quit her job, didn’t she?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 11:00:00
Back to the task at hand, outraging SRK,

  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 11:04:30
Quote from: Quagmire
She basically saved her job last night by promising to quit her job, didn’t she?

certainly didn't lose her votes


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 11:16:17
2 of those Tories had the whip reinstated especially so they could vote, whilst currently suspended over sexual misbehaviour allegations.

He sounds like a nice chap...

"She's so cute. So sweet. I can't wait to beat her" he said. "Can she take a beating?"

But a votes a vote and all that, another thing she can quote as being bad things she has done....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 11:20:28
It was, but at the same time it doesn't mean much.

She's admitted she's on borrowed time by not standing in the next GE.
She is not trusted by many ofher own party.
She still has the threat of being removed hanging over her, albeit a slightly lessened one from parliament.
She still has no chance of getting the withdrawal bill through without major legally binding changes.

So not much has changed in the now, except Boris and JRM have lost a bit of bleating power.

Back to the task at hand, outraging SRK,


 :wtg:

He's the Piers Morgan of the TEF.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 12:35:26
He sounds like a nice chap...

"She's so cute. So sweet. I can't wait to beat her" he said. "Can she take a beating?"

Talking about his reasons for voting for May, presumably?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 12:36:10
When Theresa May is looking for Tory MPs to support her, Shes not looking for the best. You get people that have a lot of problems, and they bring those problems with them. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.
:D Great work!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 12:40:08
I bet there was a tearful and poignant cry of 'Nanny' through the corridors of Westminster around 9pm last night.

However they try to spin it, it was a crap result for May and further shows she has lost control of her party.

Bizarrely, it was a pretty shit result for both sides - for May just as you say, but also for the ERG loons as they've grossly underestimated the level of their support in the party and have now locked May in office for 12 months unless Labour can force a GE or someone can persuade her to quit. Rees-Mogg was reduced to asking her to quit on the radio this morning and bravely ignoring explaining how "The party has had it's say and now everyone needs to get behind the result" didn't apply to this one-off vote but "The country has had it's say and now everyone needs to get behind the result" still applies to the one-off vote he quite liked. Like to pick and choose their principles these Brexiteers don't they?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 16:27:37
Oh dear, oh dear.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36470809


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 17:02:40
Always thought Shilton was a bot of a knob to be honest....

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/dec/13/hand-of-clod-brexit-and-theresa-may-divide-englands-1986-world-cup-squad?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 18:35:23

A VONC would serve little purpose as I suspect it wouldn't pass, mainly as it would need some Tories to revolt and they would potentially be setting themselves up to fight an election that they might lose their seats in, never underestimate self preservation!

  

Very true but also consider that there may well be several Tories fed up with the whole debacle and want out of Westminster altogether. It has become quite the House of Jesters and anyone serious (in any party) right now doesn't even seem to be getting a look in.

What do they earn £80k pa? plus expenses (yep normal ones). I'm sure there are plenty of consultancy type jobs they could do? Product Manager, Consulting Manager, Marketing Manager, Head of Trading, Business Dev Manager and more. They all command a higher fee or similar than an MP.

Quite possible some would risk losing their seat (if they have their own contingency lined up), we must remember that self preservation goes beyond the doors of Westminster. :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 19:01:41
Very true but also consider that there may well be several Tories fed up with the whole debacle and want out of Westminster altogether. It has become quite the House of Jesters and anyone serious (in any party) right now doesn't even seem to be getting a look in.

What do they earn £80k pa? plus expenses (yep normal ones). I'm sure there are plenty of consultancy type jobs they could do? Product Manager, Consulting Manager, Marketing Manager, Head of Trading, Business Dev Manager and more. They all command a higher fee or similar than an MP.

Quite possible some would risk losing their seat (if they have their own contingency lined up), we must remember that self preservation goes beyond the doors of Westminster. :)

Often MP's will have other jobs outside of Parliament, or directorships or consultancies.... the MP's $, just a bit of pin money.

I was always of the Dave Nellist school of MPery...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-23289962


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 19:08:39
Of course you were, so where did your donation end up


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, December 13, 2018, 20:08:48
Of course you were, so where did your donation end up

Meaning I approved of Nellist's approach, rather than I was an MP myself...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 14, 2018, 08:51:36
Very true but also consider that there may well be several Tories fed up with the whole debacle and want out of Westminster altogether. It has become quite the House of Jesters and anyone serious (in any party) right now doesn't even seem to be getting a look in.

What do they earn £80k pa? plus expenses (yep normal ones). I'm sure there are plenty of consultancy type jobs they could do? Product Manager, Consulting Manager, Marketing Manager, Head of Trading, Business Dev Manager and more. They all command a higher fee or similar than an MP.

Quite possible some would risk losing their seat (if they have their own contingency lined up), we must remember that self preservation goes beyond the doors of Westminster. :)

The other issue is that there are apparently 117 Tory MP's who consider that she is not fit to lead the Tory Party, now it would be rank hypocrisy for them not to vote that she is not fit to run the country  :D

I'm dodging a meeting/photo opportunity with Tim Farron to write this nonsense.  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 14, 2018, 08:55:20
We continue winning, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46560807 if rumours are to be believed May was interrupted whilst blathering on by Merkel who asked 'what specifically do you want us to do' and May was unable to answer the question.

She is either entirely useless or diabolically briefed.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 14, 2018, 09:12:38
Quote
She wants legal assurances on the Irish backstop to help her deal get through Parliament, after she delayed a Commons vote in anticipation of defeat.

That's not the only objection to the deal though, is it?

Even if she were able to somehow get the reassurances that she wants, and others in parliament will accept those reassurances, what about the rest of the objections?

She doesn't seem to understand what the objections are. The DUP don't want a backstop at all, yet May ploughs on regardless as though that particular problem will just disappear. It's fucking bizarre.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, December 14, 2018, 09:19:18
We continue winning, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46560807 if rumours are to be believed May was interrupted whilst blathering on by Merkel who asked 'what specifically do you want us to do' and May was unable to answer the question.

She is either entirely useless or diabolically briefed.  
I wouldn't rule out both. One thing that is pretty clear is that may has an inner sanctum of civil servants and does what they agree and then tells MPs.
I don't think this stops with the backstop. Get that agreed and there are other questions. For me, what are we paying £39b for when we haven't got a clue what the trade deal is. Mays deal cannot be delivered. She's flogging s dead horse. Don't forget there are those who voted for may who will vote down her deal.
We've either got to be fully in and await a united States of Europe or we're fully out with wto rules initially and hope for a decent trade deal with the EU which in reality won't be as generous as now but should be mutually beneficial but hopefully none of the other shit that attached to a free trade deal.
Nice to see unbiased BBC last night with 4 remainers and 1 leaver on question time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, December 14, 2018, 10:07:54
We're paying £39 billion for our existing commitments, it has fuck all to do with any future deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 14, 2018, 10:21:56
I don't think this stops with the backstop. Get that agreed and there are other questions. For me, what are we paying £39b for when we haven't got a clue what the trade deal is. Mays deal cannot be delivered. She's flogging s dead horse. Don't forget there are those who voted for may who will vote down her deal.

See the answer from my learned friend above, as evidenced by all the 'go whistle' bollocks and then agreeing to pay when it was realised it was a commitment we had to pay.

We've either got to be fully in and await a united States of Europe or we're fully out with wto rules initially and hope for a decent trade deal with the EU which in reality won't be as generous as now but should be mutually beneficial but hopefully none of the other shit that attached to a free trade deal.

As it stands we are quite capable of staying in and vetoing any perceived USof Europe (and SRK's army if it were ever proposed) through our membership, once we become rule takers outside we have no control over anything.

WTO rules (which don't actually exist see https://www.explaintrade.com/blogs/2018/12/11/world-trade-deal which is worth aread for everyone to be honest) are not the band aid they seem to be being sold as by JRM etc, its going to batter farming and fishing in a couple of years unless our negotiators can reach agreements to take these sectors outside standard WTO mechanisms really quickly (which on present performance I am not holding my breath on) plus I just don't get this idea that we are hamstrung by 27 EU nations but apparently all is going to be fine when we are dealing with 160+ countries (including some that are even more of a Banana Republic than we are). Oh and its going to basically cease to have any purpose in the next few years if Trump gets his way.  :no:


Nice to see unbiased BBC last night with 4 remainers and 1 leaver on question time.


Good to see Brexiteers are finally finding out that feeling, see below ;). The BBC have a very weird view of the need for balance, hence for example when they put Nigel Lawson up against a climate scientist on Climate change and give equal weight to the views expressed.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Do50__-W0AAl5Bi.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 14, 2018, 11:33:31
I make no apologies for quoting Ian Dunt at length, as he has a habit of summarising the situation (and I know he is for remain) but in this case it goes way beyond taking sides...

That's it. There's no more. The song's over, the music has stopped, the clean up crew is sweeping up the rubbish. It's done.

Theresa May's Brexit is dead. We can't waste anymore time pretending otherwise. There is no other story to invent. There is no argument or fabricated bit of Westminster nonsense which can allow us to suspend our disbelief a moment longer.

Last night, in another national humiliation which should pain us but to which we are becoming alarmingly accustomed, the prime minister spoke to EU leaders for an hour only for them to toughen up their position from what it was beforehand. It is astonishing. She is like an anti-lobbyist. The deals she promotes actually become worse by contact with her presentation.

EU leaders were actually quite warmly disposed towards May when she entered the room. They recognised the difficulties back home. They want the deal to pass. But after an hour of her insipid, meaningless rhetoric and relentlessly evasive political gymnastics, they'd turned cold.

Incredibly, one of the things May asked for was a one-year limit on the backstop. Does she truly still not understand what it is? Is there any thinking whatsoever, any basic competence or appreciation of detail, taking place in Downing Street?

The backstop is an insurance policy, designed to protect Ireland against the consequences of Britain's perpetual indecision and the lies of the Brexit jihadis who have taken over the country. To ask for a one year limit now suggests a total failure of comprehension about the matter under discussion and the reason it exists.

Not only could May not secure it, she did not even have any ideas for how it might be achievable if she could. When one EU leader asked how she imagined the target would operate, she had no answer. It's not even as if this is a particularly difficult question. But her team had not considered it. The truth is they'd had to promise it to Tory MPs to survive on Tuesday and now came to plead for it in Brussels on Thursday, with nothing but their own desperation as leverage. What a mockery of what this country used to be.

The failure is now too severe to be restricted to May alone. Anyone advising her, anyone in the negotiating team, must bear the heavy load of it. This is a national humiliation.

Not only would the withdrawal agreement not be reopened, but the draft summit conclusions were rewritten to toughen-up the EU's stance on the UK. Paragraph three was changed to remove an assurance that the backstop was not a "desirable outcome" for the EU and then bolstered with refreshed commitments on the integrity of the single market. The section in paragraph five which promised to examine whether "any further reassurance" could be provided was instead changed to increase preparations for no-deal.

There is no need for further discussion. May has no content. There is nothing behind the facade. For the last two and a half years Remainers and Brexiters alike have imagined her to have secret plans which will trap people this way or push them that. It's all nonsense. She has nothing. Among her many failings, she is neither intelligent nor well-prepared. The emperor has no clothes, nor skin, nor vital organs.

She cannot get changes at the EU after the meeting last night. She cannot be unseated by her own party after the failed no-confidence attempt on Wednesday. She cannot get her deal past the Commons after her cowardly refusal to bring it on Tuesday. There is no movement anywhere.

Her current timetable is to wait until January 21st, in six weeks, before bringing something back. That is not acceptable. Even if there was a credible plan, it would be a generous timeframe. But there is not, so it is insane. It is, quite simply and demonstrably, not in the national interest to wait that long so that she can try some other shabby mechanism to prolong her political survival.

If she won't go and her party will not get rid of her, then parliament needs to step in. The time is now. Not on January 21st. Not even after Christmas. It should happen immediately.

There should be an immediate motion of no-confidence against the government. In any sane world this would pass. Any MP who will not vote for the deal and does not believe she can improve it should vote for it as a matter of basic logic. But even if, as seems likely, the no-confidence motion does not pass, it sets a marker. There is no limit on how many of these votes can be held.

This should be supplemented by a guerrilla campaign trying to bring to a halt the basic functions of government: Amendments to the legislation which is still in the Lords and the Commons, opposition day debates, and the holding up of statutory instruments required to prepare for leaving the EU.

This is not irresponsible. The simple fact is that there is no functioning government so it should not be allowed to pretend otherwise. Parliament must take back control.

If not now, then when?


See http://www.politics.co.uk/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, December 14, 2018, 11:56:52
We're paying £39 billion for our existing commitments, it has fuck all to do with any future deal.

No, but Brexiteers gleefully say if we don't agree the exit deal we can keep the 39 Billion and got to WTO.

Of course the IMF says best case that'll wipe 5% off GDP compared to remaining. 5% of 2.6 trillion....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 14, 2018, 11:59:18
Bloomberg: How Ireland Outmanoeuvred Britain on Brexit (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-12-14/how-ireland-outmaneuvered-britain-on-brexit)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:00:59
I rarely get involved in this political debate, but one thing I will say is:

The hard line stance that the EU is taking on not being willing to negotiate in any way, and threatening to put all sorts of stipulations in place with regards to trading and travelling between the UK and EU - I hope any future PM (whatever party, whether we remain or leave, no deal or some kind of deal) remembers the hard line stance that the EU is taking and has the balls to reciprocate in the future.  Though I understand their stance somewhat, the way they are going about it is similar to a spoilt brat walking off with the ball..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:02:52
The concerted push to kill May's deal is almost over.  The push to kill the WTO 'no deal' option (which does not have support in the country and will never get through parliament) will then follow.  The 2nd Referendum will then be all that is left.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:06:20
Can't agree there Bernie. They are quite rightly putting the pressure back on us, looking after their Union and discouraging other countries from doing the same as we are.

They may soften before March 29th, but they are right to play tough right now.
----
Don't see how a change of Government will improve things myself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:11:23
Can't agree there Bernie. They are quite rightly putting the pressure back on us, looking after their Union and discouraging other countries from doing the same as we are.

They may soften before March 29th, but they are right to play tough right now.
----
Don't see how a change of Government will improve things myself.

Not saying I agree a change of government will help, just can't see May surviving for the long term.  Ultimately I want to see (whatever scenario comes to fruition) somebody in there that has the balls to stand up and challenge the EU.  If we would have had somebody like that a few years ago, perhaps the word "Brexit" would not exist today.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:12:03
The hard line stance that the EU is taking on not being willing to negotiate in any way, and threatening to put all sorts of stipulations in place with regards to trading and travelling between the UK and EU - I hope any future PM (whatever party, whether we remain or leave, no deal or some kind of deal) remembers the hard line stance that the EU is taking and has the balls to reciprocate in the future.  Though I understand their stance somewhat, the way they are going about it is similar to a spoilt brat walking off with the ball..
Seriously? Not a massive fan of the EU, but tbf they've negotiated for 2 years with a country that pressed the button without any plan for what we wanted from the negotiations, then went into the negotiations with our hands tied by a PM who had painted herself into a corner with an arbitrary and contradictory set of "red lines" to keep her fragile coalition of religious zealots, hard right nutters and the rest of the party onside, we still haven't managed to decide what we actually want and as of yesterday May was apparently unable to actually explain to Merkel et al what it was she wanted. Whether the EU wanted to negotiate or not is something of a moot point as the UK just hasn't had a coherent position throughout so we've ended up with a cobbled together deal that protects the EU's interests as we still can't decide what our interests are. The only spoilt brats in here, I'm afraid, is us. Or rather our "leaders".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:14:20
The concerted push to kill May's deal is almost over.  The push to kill the WTO 'no deal' option (which does not have support in the country and will never get through parliament) will then follow.  The 2nd Referendum will then be all that is left.

The thought of a second ref, fills me with dread. I see no good in it, the divisions currently in the country and between the constituent parts of the uk will harden, and won't be resolved.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:17:20
Seriously? Not a massive fan of the EU, but tbf they've negotiated for 2 years with a country that pressed the button without any plan for what we wanted from the negotiations, then went into the negotiations with our hands tied by a PM who had painted herself into a corner with an arbitrary and contradictory set of "red lines" to keep her fragile coalition of religious zealots, hard right nutters and the rest of the party onside, we still haven't managed to decide what we actually want and as of yesterday May was apparently unable to actually explain to Merkel et al what it was she wanted. The EU have tried to negotiate but the UK just hasn't had a coherent position throughout. The only spoilt brats in here, I'm afraid, is us. Or rather our "leaders".

I refer to my previous post.  I am not saying that the EU is in the wrong in their stance, more the way they are going about it, this is all on us and the fuckwits that lead us to this situation.  My point was more what comes next, somebody that is strong enough to take us through the next period whatever that may be.  Unfortunately I am not sure that such a person currently exists at the moment.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:22:04
I refer to my previous post.  I am not saying that the EU is in the wrong in their stance, more the way they are going about it, this is all on us and the fuckwits that lead us to this situation.  My point was more what comes next, somebody that is strong enough to take us through the next period whatever that may be.  Unfortunately I am not sure that such a person currently exists at the moment.
Fair enough. While the idea of of essentially starting again with someone halfway competent in charge and considerably more knowledge of what Brexit would actually entail is attractive, I'm not sure even if there were such a person, that that option is really there any more. I suspect we'll end up crashing out by default just purely because no-one can agree to any of the alternatives, even though most of the major participants agree that that's their least desired scenario, apart from the hard-right fringe of the ERG who have wanted that all along. I'll give them this, they've taken caucusing to heights that even Militant would have admired.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:22:27
The thought of a second ref, fills me with dread. I see no good in it, the divisions currently in the country and between the constituent parts of the uk will harden, and won't be resolved.

Same here.  But I think it's where we're heading, in all probability.  We're soon going to learn what it's like to live in a chronically divided society, I think.  Like NI a few years back, but (hopefully) without the weaponry.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:25:47
The thought of a second ref, fills me with dread. I see no good in it, the divisions currently in the country and between the constituent parts of the uk will harden, and won't be resolved.

I would be inclined to agree, however both Ireland and Denmark have, in the past, had referendum on EU matters, it gone one way then when reality bit about what the result would really entail had another and its gone back the other way, this has been done with no civic unrest and both countries are oft quoted as the happiest in Europe, so perhaps its just us....

There is a lot of background to this, much which has little to do with the EU sadly... this sums it up rather... https://twitter.com/PoliticoRyan/status/1073226614773829632
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:30:11
Fair enough. While the idea of of essentially starting again with someone halfway competent in charge and considerably more knowledge of what Brexit would actually entail is attractive, I'm not sure even if there were such a person, that that option is really there any more. I suspect we'll end up crashing out by default just purely because no-one can agree to any of the alternatives, even though most of the major participants agree that that's their least desired scenario, apart from the hard-right fringe of the ERG who have wanted that all along. I'll give them this, they've taken caucusing to heights that even Militant would have admired.

Its worth bearing in mind that we keep hearing it trotted out that the EU is being bullying and won't negotiate, that's total bollocks. The EU did negotiate, last December, and finalised a deal that was agreed by our Government, what is happening now is that as they cannot agree amongst themselves, our government is trying to reopen negotiations to their benefit and entirely understandably the other side is telling them (ever more stridently it would appear) to bugger off!

In terms of the negotiation the problem has never been the EU, its been the bloody Tory party being unable to negotiate with itself! It sadly appears the case that its the Tory right and strident Brexiteers who simply cannot grasp the idea that EU thinks Ireland, one of its member states, is more important than them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:33:27
Its worth bearing in mind that we keep hearing it trotted out that the EU is being bullying and won't negotiate, that's total bollocks. The EU did negotiate, last December, and finalised a deal that was agreed by our Government, what is happening now is that as they cannot agree amongst themselves, our government is trying to reopen negotiations to their benefit and entirely understandably the other side is telling them (ever more stridently it would appear) to bugger off!

In terms of the negotiation the problem has never been the EU, its been the bloody Tory party being unable to negotiate with itself! It sadly appears the case that its the Tory right and strident Brexiteers who simply cannot grasp the idea that EU thinks Ireland, one of its member states, is more important than them.
Completely agree, that's what I was trying to say (badly). I was very 50/50 at the time of the vote, and I still think there is a cogent argument for a well planned and properly thought out Brexit. Sadly that isn't what we're going to get. As a nation we have been badly let down by shambolic leadership, of both the govt and the opposition


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 14, 2018, 12:45:01
Meanwhile I see the ongoing privatisation of every aspect of public life has pulled off another stunning win for taxpayers the shareholders of Capita

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46561779


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, December 14, 2018, 14:05:14
Capita are the fucking worst.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, December 14, 2018, 14:25:29
Today is the 100th anniversary of women being able to vote in a GE.

 Our own Edith New deserves a mention.....

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_New


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, December 14, 2018, 15:54:12
Capita are the fucking worst.
Crapita as they are known.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 11:57:10
 I see the Archbishop of Canterbury is getting his bishops to say prayers for our politicians.... asking for them to be able to show courage, integrity and clarity. 

 Some might say what's politics to do with him, but the bishops do sit in the House of Lords.... 26 of them, the Lords Spiritual


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 12:06:50
Brexit.

Send it back.

Not as described.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 12:23:08
Brexit.

Send it back.

Not as described.
It said on the ballot paper accept daves deal or leave the eu, all the eu. Simple in out decision not multi choice. How's it not as described?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 12:41:47
It’s not as simple as that as you well know. I voted to leave but not on the back of this shambles.

If you were to ask me now, Mays Deal or Remain, I’d vote Remain - as would a sizeable majority.

The country had its chance to leave but fucked it up - or the politicians did.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 12:53:16
It said on the ballot paper accept daves deal or leave the eu, all the eu. Simple in out decision not multi choice. How's it not as described?
Because it got broken in delivery.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 13:03:40
It said on the ballot paper accept daves deal or leave the eu, all the eu. Simple in out decision not multi choice. How's it not as described?

(https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/2000/1*SOvUBM3ay35FLRMdU3uyqw.jpeg)

Mays deal has us leaving the European Union. You dozy cunt


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 13:05:59
It’s not as simple as that as you well know. I voted to leave but not on the back of this shambles.

If you were to ask me now, Mays Deal or Remain, I’d vote Remain - as would a sizeable majority.

The country had its chance to leave but fucked it up - or the politicians did.

That's interesting.

I voted remain, but would now just say fuck it, if it's no deal then so be it.
That's said with some malevolence though.

Any second referendum, if it happened, would need to be carefully worded, maybe with a 60/40 requirement one way or another.

Ask a stupid question and all that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 13:09:59
I think the question would be to either Remain or accept May’s deal. If the answer is to accept said deal then woe betide any MP who disregards it.

Either that or make it clear that the result is binding on Parliament and there is no vote whatsoever on ratifying the deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 13:28:49
Some might want to see a no deal option on the paper as well.
Which could then be preferential vote territory with 3 options.

Too much for the electorate to cope with?
The acid test would be if it didn't send Srk into meltdown I guess.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 13:33:32
The concerted push to kill May's deal is almost over.  The push to kill the WTO 'no deal' option (which does not have support in the country and will never get through parliament) will then follow.  The 2nd Referendum will then be all that is left.
Who says WTO doesn't have support,you and your remian friends.I take it your second ref. will be reamain on May's deal or remain as we were.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 13:34:06
As we've already voted to leave maybe if there is a second referendum it should be mays deal or no deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 13:41:09
I see the Archbishop of Canterbury is getting his bishops to say prayers for our politicians.... asking for them to be able to show courage, integrity and clarity. 


The Archbishop should ask the entire country to pray for him and his bishops  ..... asking for them to be able to show a bit more courage and integrity when dealing with their next batch of paedophile clergy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 13:42:15
I think the question would be to either Remain or accept May’s deal. If the answer is to accept said deal then woe betide any MP who disregards it.

Either that or make it clear that the result is binding on Parliament and there is no vote whatsoever on ratifying the deal.
Why not make it remain as we were or remain with a new deal worse than we had. Then by removing leave, we can say remain won and just act like tha last vote never existed.We also need to make sure the next vote is final and 16 year olds and eu citizens in the uk have a vote. Guaranteed win for remain in the eu forever.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 13:43:13
sounds good to me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 13:49:21
Why are we fucking about with all this, just tell the uk that we can't leave ever.As mendlesom said we now live in a post democratic age. The rich eu elite can get richer and the uk can be an administrative zone of europe with 70 milliion Indentured servitude citizens. There, you'll all be happy with that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 13:53:52
yup, sounds great


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 18:39:40
Sounds like a great deal (SRKs Remain pledge).

The opportunity to live and travel in 27 other countries with little to no visa restrictions (other than the standard). Many of which (18 maybe 19) use a single currency, ensuring ease of movement for capital with things like SEPA (there is better but this is pretty darn good), between said countries. No IKEA furniture and other imported beauties like Rauch, reaching astronomical price heights due to rises in import duty (the buy to let investors can sleep easy). Being able to attract and keep the best bankers and traders as "The City" would retain competitive certainty. Attracting fantastic surgeons and medical professionals from said pool of 27. Retaining a shared program status with ESA and the pioneering intelligence that comes hand in hand with a partnership in space exploration, as well as continued military access to Galileo GPS. The Erasmus+ which allows University Students to move from said countries and study in a place more beneficial to their degree (this includes UK students having instant access to this too, as has been experienced by friends of mine (yes I have the odd one or two) and co-workers). It is only being confirmed to be supported until 2020. There's much more benefit but I won't go on.

Economically we'd be fucking stupid to leave. Why should the decision deny good opportunity and experience to generations not even born? Yet, those 1.27 million of a "majority" out of, lets not forget 46.5m of the electorate, have decided their/our fate. A whopping 2.37%

My question is, if you don't care for any of that and as has been made evident, not a lot would change for the better. Why would you be bothered about wanting to leave anyway?

Sorry, you were sold a fish and the fish is rotten.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 19:05:13
I think your finishing line should be the fish may be rotten, it may largely be the same or it might be a different fish but effectively the same or better.
There is not one person in the fucking world who knows how it will pan out. There are plenty of opinions but nobody actually knows. That's the gamble.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 19:38:11
I think your finishing line should be the fish may be rotten, it may largely be the same or it might be a different fish but effectively the same or better.
There is not one person in the fucking world who knows how it will pan out. There are plenty of opinions but nobody actually knows. That's the gamble.

1. That's a "Reg Fence" logic, surely  ;)
2. Then why on earth would we take that gamble with so much uncertainty?

All this just doesn't seem an educated bet, to me.

Slight divulge but I'm all for patriotism and sovereignty, etc. It's actually something we should be freely proud (like every country should freely do) to do. However our Far Right idiots have not helped the case of "innocent patriotism". I always find a certain irony that many of them have no idea where St. George originates from. Even so the trade off, of having a "Flag Day" like many nations do just wouldn't outweigh the benefits as listed previously. It might for some. In any case if someone was that patriotic. They would book April 23rd off anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 19:48:29
Don't forget that we leavers are apparently uneducated, racist cunts who will ruin everyone's children's lives, all 17.4 million of us. On the positive side as we're apparently all on the edge of death then just string it out a bit until another referendum and we'll remain. Or alternatively lots of us have seen the errors of our ways and it's for our good that we have another chance to correct our foolishness that we now freely acknowledge


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 20:45:05
I know some very (VERY) well educated and very liberally minded leavers. I get how frustrating it must be for such folk to be branded with the same brush as the Tommy Robinsons of the world. I often get branded as a bigot myself because of my views on religion. It gets right on my fucking tits. It's much easier for people to attack a strawman than it is to face objections that might challenge their own worldview.

Having said that... the leavers that are the most vociferous tend not to be those that are reasonable. As is often the case with any topic. Look at SRK, he more reactional than anything and he's quite typical of the type of leaver you'll find making noises on social media.

It would be good if those that were more reasonable would speak up more. Although, the left can be very keen on shouting down those they don't agree with so I can see why many just don't want to bother.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 20:54:23
I know some very (VERY) well educated and very liberally minded leavers. I get how frustrating it must be for such folk to be branded with the same brush as the Tommy Robinsons of the world. I often get branded as a bigot myself because of my views on religion. It gets right on my fucking tits. It's much easier for people to attack a strawman than it is to face objections that might challenge their own worldview.

Having said that... the leavers that are the most vociferous tend not to be those that are reasonable. As is often the case with any topic. Look at SRK, he more reactional than anything and he's quite typical of the type of leaver you'll find making noises on social media.

It would be good if those that were more reasonable would speak up more. Although, the left can be very keen on shouting down those they don't agree with so I can see why many just don't want to bother.
I would be quite calm about it if cunts didn't think they have the right to ignore the vote. If they'd have won, well we all know what they'd say, that's it the people have spoken. Fucking leftard commie twats.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 20:59:21
I rest my case.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 21:05:03
I would be quite calm about it if cunts didn't think they have the right to ignore the vote. If they'd have won, well we all know what they'd say, that's it the people have spoken. Fucking leftard commie twats.
I know several remainers who are right wing. I know several leavers who are left wing. Tony Benn didn't want the EU. This crosses parties. Look at the amount of traditional labour voters up north who voted leave. What I don't like is Dianne abbot saying anyone who voted brexit is racist. I also don't like that smarmy cunt Hammond calling leavers extremists - 17.4 million extremists. I believe he has since apologised.
I also fucking hate the terms gammons, brexdiiot, remoaners etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 21:23:30
Don't forget that we leavers are apparently uneducated, racist cunts who will ruin everyone's children's lives, all 17.4 million of us. On the positive side as we're apparently all on the edge of death then just string it out a bit until another referendum and we'll remain. Or alternatively lots of us have seen the errors of our ways and it's for our good that we have another chance to correct our foolishness that we now freely acknowledge

Just so we're clear, I never even mentioned anything about leavers being uneducated, racist cunts thanks very much.

I know a fair amount of people who voted leave, including my own family. Considering I live in a constituency that voted 60% to 40% in favour of  leave, about 45k to 30k with a 76.5% turnout. I'm well aware that plenty of them aren't stupid (there's a good chunk that are, that includes remain voters too) or racist.

Whatever we think or believe and whichever side of the ballot we fall, in reality we have no real control of how this will pan out anyway. The tinpot of it all, is an inept government and "leader" who haven't a spine or the jimminitys of an idea of how to execute it. Certainly without any kind of dignity or respect.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 21:26:43
I rest my case.
Flash I couldn't pass it up, you were looking for an answer like mine above. Like I've said to all the women I shagged, glad I didn't disappoint.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Saturday, December 15, 2018, 21:30:33
Just so we're clear, I never even mentioned anything about leavers being uneducated, racist cunts thanks very much.

I know a fair amount of people who voted leave, including my own family. Considering I live in a constituency that voted 60% to 40% in favour of  leave, about 45k to 30k with a 76.5% turnout. I'm well aware that plenty of them aren't stupid (there's a good chunk that are, that includes remain voters too) or racist.

Whatever we think or believe and whichever side of the ballot we fall, in reality we have no real control of how this will pan out anyway. The tinpot of it all, is an inept government and "leader" who haven't a spine or the jimminitys of an idea of how to execute it. Certainly without any kind of dignity or respect.
Read your post again


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 00:11:15
What I don't like is Dianne abbot saying anyone who voted brexit is racist.
And? Abbot's an idiot, everyone knows that. Even assuming she did actually say that (and not just something that could be made to sound like that once the quote had been edited by the media), why would that bother you? It's like getting upset because SRK calls everyone who doesn't agree with him a commie leftard. So what? There's loads of perfectly intelligent, well-informed people who voted for both leave and remain. There is a legitimate case to be made for both sides of the argument, although neither case was made during the referendum campaign, which on both sides traded on ignorance, lies and downright fraud. That doesn't mean that people who voted one way or another are ignorant or stupid purely because of the way they voted, we all went on the evidence we had available to make our decisions, which were extremely ill-served by lowest common demoninator campaigns on both sides. I suspect that where we are now is not really where most voters of either side would wish to be. But allowing yourself to feel judged by or judging the "other side" by the likes of Abbot, Farage, Blair, the criminal Yaxley-Lennon (aka his nomme de guerre "Tommy Robinson") or the likes of SM trolls like SRK is to only perpetuate the rifts this whole sorry debacle has caused. Most commonsense Leave voters have far more in common with their Remain counterparts than either do with the extremes of their "side", and the voters on both sides have been badly let down by the leaders of all factions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 01:38:03
Read your post again

For the want of not getting cyclical, please do point to where I state all Leave voters are "uneducated" & "racist cunts". They were, I believe your words that you inserted into the conversation. You clearly have an issue somewhere within this point because I never mentioned it.

If you are claiming it from the following extractions;

'All this just doesn't seem an educated bet¹ to me.'

'However our Far Right idiots (½a) have not helped the case of "innocent patriotism". I always find a certain irony that many of them have no idea where St. George originates (½b) from.'

and this;

'Economically we'd be fucking stupid³ to leave.'

Specifically the elements highlighted in bold. Purely because they are the only areas that link to what you are claiming. I'll add context to them;

¹ Relating to actually delivering on Brexit. As we've seen over the last week or so in parliament, the prospect of leaving the EU appears a weakening proposal with all routes of negotiation closed off. If we were to bet on leaving right now, it wouldn't seem an educated bet.

½a Relating to Far Right Extremists.

½b Relating to Far Right Extremists, many of which ignorantly think St. George was English.

³ Relating to the Bank of England and the Government's economic forecasts, post-Brexit (both released on the 28th Nov 2018) stating Britain would be economically worse off after Brexit.

 ::)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 02:18:20
 Bottom line is however flawed we live in a democracy.... Labour's manifesto pledge on the EU in 2015, was this....

"Allow no further transfer of powers to Brussels without a referendum" eminently sensible, but the Cameron position was voted for.

That was then delivered and the vote was for out... Parliament then voted overwhelmingly to trigger Art 50.

Parliament now needs to deliver that verdict, and if it means tanking the economy so be it, they should have thought of that before triggering Art 50.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 09:12:14
Bottom line is however flawed we live in a democracy.... Labour's manifesto pledge on the EU in 2015, was this....

"Allow no further transfer of powers to Brussels without a referendum" eminently sensible, but the Cameron position was voted for.

That was then delivered and the vote was for out... Parliament then voted overwhelmingly to trigger Art 50.

Parliament now needs to deliver that verdict, and if it means tanking the economy so be it, they should have thought of that before triggering Art 50.
Reg you've just posted the facts and that should be the end of this discussion. I've decided that because of your intelligent fact based, truth, you are forth with ennobled and from this day onwards shall be know as Sir Reg Smeeton. Feel free to wipe your arse on any lefty twat that passes by whilst your taking a dump.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 09:17:34
Quote from: Reg Smeeton
 

Parliament now needs to deliver that verdict, and if it means tanking the economy so be it, they should have thought of that before triggering Art 50.

that's just retarded.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 09:36:14
that's just retarded.
No one minded when we joined the eu and it tanked our economy. That was retarded but ted heath got his 30k bonus from the eu so it was OK. Futher more you must now refer to post by Reg as SRS. thanks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 09:44:15
sorry.

SRS, that's retarded.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 10:34:16
No one minded when we joined the eu and it tanked our economy. That was retarded but ted heath got his 30k bonus from the eu so it was OK. Futher more you must now refer to post by Reg as SRS. thanks.
So your logic is because, in your view, we fucked up when we joined the EU it's ok to sleepwalk into another fuck up?
That truly is special thinking..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 10:37:36
that's just retarded.

For me it's about democratic principle, and you can't put too much of a price on that. Parliament voted overwhelmingly to activate Art 50, if they can't deliver it, then it needs to go to a GE.... if there is a need for a second ref, it should be in the manifestos with a clear statement about what the question might look like.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 12:05:42
No one minded when we joined the eu and it tanked our economy. That was retarded but ted heath got his 30k bonus from the eu so it was OK. Futher more you must now refer to post by Reg as SRS. thanks.

Tanked the Economy??

I know things were a bit rough in the 70’s, but our economy has grown faster than Germany’s in the years since we joined the EU


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 12:42:24
For me it's about democratic principle, and you can't put too much of a price on that. Parliament voted overwhelmingly to activate Art 50, if they can't deliver it, then it needs to go to a GE.... if there is a need for a second ref, it should be in the manifestos with a clear statement about what the question might look like.
Think you're absolutely right there. The phrasing of the question will be all important too, can't be just a straight leave or remain again, because one thing we have learned is that "leave" isn't clear enough, it covers too many options. But if you have "Remain, Leave on May's deal or Leave without a deal" that would split the Leave vote, which is clearly unfair. So I suspect it would have to be some form of "Question 1: Leave or Remain. Question 2: if Leave, on what terms, May's deal or no deal?". And this time any answer must have a 60% vote in favour to take effect, one of the biggest failures of Cameron's referendum


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 12:59:04
Think you're absolutely right there. The phrasing of the question will be all important too, can't be just a straight leave or remain again, because one thing we have learned is that "leave" isn't clear enough, it covers too many options. But if you have "Remain, Leave on May's deal or Leave without a deal" that would split the Leave vote, which is clearly unfair. So I suspect it would have to be some form of "Question 1: Leave or Remain. Question 2: if Leave, on what terms, May's deal or no deal?". And this time any answer must have a 60% vote in favour to take effect, one of the biggest failures of Cameron's referendum

No basically remain should not be on the ballot that’s already been decided upon. If it was in the ballot and won the leave side would not accept the result and rightly so.

As May said her deal is the only on offer should be her deal or no deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 14:06:14
if something's shit and unworkable don't do it.

it would need May removing to stay anyway, she also has no appetite for staying


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 17:02:24
No basically remain should not be on the ballot that’s already been decided upon. If it was in the ballot and won the leave side would not accept the result and rightly so.
And if it's not, remain won't accept the result. Let's face it, whichever side loses won't accept it anyway. That's one reason why it needs to be 60% of the vote to get a clear result.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 17:50:37
And if it's not, remain won't accept the result. Let's face it, whichever side loses won't accept it anyway. That's one reason why it needs to be 60% of the vote to get a clear result.
What ever way its spun remain lost and so they want another vote to usurp the last one.
leaving will not be an option and the next fixed vote for remain will be permanent.
We are living in the post democratic age.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 21:52:07
What ever way its spun remain lost and so they want another vote to usurp the last one.
leaving will not be an option and the next fixed vote for remain will be permanent.
We are living in the post democratic age.


I take it you're going to lose your shit if the government do end up putting the onus back onto the public, aren't you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 22:15:09
can only hope we see him blow a fuse


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 22:30:28
can only hope we see him blow a fuse
That ship sailed some time ago, we are living in a post-fuse age


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 22:31:46
Reg you've just posted the facts and that should be the end of this discussion. I've decided that because of your intelligent fact based, truth, you are forth with ennobled and from this day onwards shall be know as Sir Reg Smeeton. Feel free to wipe your arse on any lefty twat that passes by whilst your taking a dump.
You do realise Reg is the biggest lefty on here don't you? Deeply special


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, December 16, 2018, 23:40:07
That ship sailed some time ago, we are living in a post-fuse age

"Blowit means Blowit"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, December 17, 2018, 07:54:08
You do realise Reg is the biggest lefty on here don't you? Deeply special
Was the biggest lefty, he's read that being a commie is bad and come over from the dark side.
Even supports a real brexit, makes all my work worthwhile. Like all reformed lefties he's love life with his new title of Sir Reg.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, December 17, 2018, 08:10:44
Good god this cunt is tedious.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, December 17, 2018, 08:40:12
No one minded when we joined the eu and it tanked our economy...…………

You do know that for our period of EU membership the UK's GDP growth per capita - up to the referendum - had outstripped Germany's (you now the country for whose benefit your ilk parrot that the EU is run ) AND that of the USA's (the supposedly alt right, free market beacon to whom the likes of Farage and Fox are so beholden)

Your ignorance is only matched by your "belief".






Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, December 17, 2018, 08:55:01
Good god this cunt is tedious.
Thanks that's the best thing you've ever ssaid about me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, December 17, 2018, 08:58:53
You do know that for our period of EU membership the UK's GDP growth per capita - up to the referendum - had outstripped Germany's (you now the country for whose benefit your ilk parrot that the EU is run ) AND that of the USA's (the supposedly alt right, free market beacon to whom the likes of Farage and Fox are so beholden)

Your ignorance is only matched by your "belief".

Open your eyes and look at the state of the eu ponzi scheme. Greece broke, Spain broke, Italy basket case, France burning and Germany in recession. The future is bright but its not failed communisum.






Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, December 17, 2018, 09:18:31
The sheer amount of double think required to unironically state that more votes = less democracy is staggering.

Get new arguments, because that one is fucking shit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, December 17, 2018, 10:25:16
Open your eyes and look at the state of the eu ponzi scheme. Greece broke, Spain broke, Italy basket case, France burning and Germany in recession. The future is bright but its not failed communisum.

It is ironic that you see the EU as a Ponzi Scheme, SRK whilst being a cheerleader against regulation.

By 2008 banks and bankers were earning amazing, booming returns by trading derivatives pregnant with junk property bonds. That was the bubble, the Ponzi scheme if you like.  Greed (human nature) allied to lack of regulation..  Who wouldn't bet for free if someone else would pay the stake and the taxpayer was there to underwite disaster?

I'm no saint and, in that position, I could well be condemning regulation and anti the EU's predisposition towards it

The losers were comfortable and wealthier private investors, ordinary hard working Joes investing in pensions, taxpayers funding bank bail outs, users of depleted public services such as the NHS as well as the most vulnerable.  Most of us are in that category.  Like you, I like economic freedom but there is a tipping point where liking it makes you personally no more than a cap doffer to the elite.

As for Germany, Italy, France, Spain and Greece, I give you Northern Ireland, West Wales and the North East in the UK and Wyoming, Louisiana, West Virginia etc in the USA.  Not sure why  ;)





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, December 17, 2018, 12:46:36
Oh Jesus, it can get worse!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46592394


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, December 17, 2018, 12:50:11
Oh Jesus, it can get worse!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46592394

There is talk atm of trying to sift through a number of options that might get a majority of MP's to vote for it.... would have made sense to do it 2 years ago, to take it off to Bruxelles as a negotiating position.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 17, 2018, 12:54:33
the pig farmers will be rejoicing


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, December 17, 2018, 12:59:52
There is talk atm of trying to sift through a number of options that might get a majority of MP's to vote for it.... would have made sense to do it 2 years ago, to take it off to Bruxelles as a negotiating position.
I was more referring to the proposal to re-engage Cameron in the fuck up he created in the first place. Cameron and May working together to resolve Brexit - what could possibly go wrong?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, December 17, 2018, 12:59:58
I see Hungary, that bastion of EU defiance who closed their doors to immigrants (at a time when they have a higher death than birth rate and a net migration deficit) and anti-EU regulations, are trying to push trhough new laws to enable companies to all but demand people work 400 hours of overtime with payment deferred.  Something we could easily see here with a hard brexit, a loosening of those pesky labour laws that the the EU enforced to ensure social policy was consistent.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, December 17, 2018, 13:02:07
Totally pointless voting on options as the EU will not give the slightest fuck. As a nation we are embarrassing ourselves and the EU have every right to tell us to go fuck ourselves, which they are enjoying doing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 17, 2018, 13:08:03
Totally pointless voting on options as the EU will not give the slightest fuck.

Not give a fuck about what? The May deal is also their deal, leave with no deal or stay are unilateral decisions.

Oh wait, you mean renegotiate/investigate a Canada/Norway+ don't you? In which case you are quite right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, December 17, 2018, 13:10:51
Not give a fuck about what? The May deal is also their deal, leave with no deal or stay are unilateral decisions.

Oh wait, you mean renegotiate/investigate a Canada/Norway+ don't you? In which case you are quite right.
Yes, we've spent 2 years coming up with a withdrawal agreement. I'm not alone in thinking it's a shit deal but why the fuck would the EU listen to other ideas now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Monday, December 17, 2018, 13:27:26
"David Cameron 'advising Theresa May on options' if deal rejected"
What would that advice involve?  "Quit & run off into the sunset as fast as you can like I did"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Monday, December 17, 2018, 14:04:24
I was more referring to the proposal to re-engage Cameron in the fuck up he created in the first place. Cameron and May working together to resolve Brexit - what could possibly go wrong?

No worries, I've heard she doesn't listen to others.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, December 17, 2018, 14:41:59
This is where your tax is going.   

The European Union’s highest grade of civil servants will be paid more than €20,000 euros (£18,000) a month for the first time, after EU salaries and pensions were increased retroactively from July 1 this year.

The increase means that Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European Commission and Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council, will earn about €32,700 euros a month, about €550 more than previously. The increase, meant to cover the cost of living, is equivalent to €6,600 a year.

No wonder people want to get on the gravy train.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 17, 2018, 15:02:58
it's not that high for a head honcho really, bit like the PM's wage isn't


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, December 17, 2018, 15:12:15
Incoming!

Comrade Corbyn

‘And so Mr Speaker, if the Prime Minister does not announce the date for the final vote immediately and with the vote taken promptly, I will table a motion;

"That this House has no confidence in the Prime Minister due to her failure to allow the House of Commons to have a meaningful vote straight away on the withdrawal agreement and framework for the future relationship between the UK and the EU."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, December 17, 2018, 15:17:27
Jeremy's woken up!

Not before time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, December 17, 2018, 15:17:43
Incoming!

Comrade Corbyn

‘And so Mr Speaker, if the Prime Minister does not announce the date for the final vote immediately and with the vote taken promptly, I will table a motion;

"That this House has no confidence in the Prime Minister due to her failure to allow the House of Commons to have a meaningful vote straight away on the withdrawal agreement and framework for the future relationship between the UK and the EU."

Probably mean in the event of a vote the 100 odd Tories who had no conficence in the PM last week woulld suddenly find it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, December 17, 2018, 15:22:16
Appears, actually, that this is not a conventional no confidence motion.  The Guardian is calling it a gimmick.

As you were...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: normy on Monday, December 17, 2018, 15:24:22
I haven't seen any estimated figures for benefits in the event of a No Deal versus what we we get in the EU as now. Am I right that on 1st April 2019 we would retain the £39 billion, stop paying in to the EU budget, get on with free trade deals a lot quicker, and perhaps reduce out balance of payments deficit with the EU?

On the other side, how much would we lose because of our dependence on frictionless trade with EU?  Just asking, I don't get economics.  >:(


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, December 17, 2018, 15:36:00
I haven't seen any estimated figures for benefits in the event of a No Deal versus what we we get in the EU as now. Am I right that on 1st April 2019 we would retain the £39 billion, stop paying in to the EU budget, get on with free trade deals a lot quicker, and perhaps reduce out balance of payments deficit with the EU?

On the other side, how much would we lose because of our dependence on frictionless trade with EU?  Just asking, I don't get economics.  >:(


The £39bn payment (or payments, because it would be paid over a period of decades) covers the costs of existing commitments that the UK made while a member.  The only people suggesting that this might be withheld - at least that I'm aware of - are hard Brexiters.  We would be defaulting on existing commitments.  It isn't going to happen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, December 17, 2018, 15:44:30
New debate for the meaningless vote 7th Jan. Vote during following week.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, December 17, 2018, 15:47:22
I haven't seen any estimated figures for benefits in the event of a No Deal versus what we we get in the EU as now. Am I right that on 1st April 2019 we would retain the £39 billion, stop paying in to the EU budget, get on with free trade deals a lot quicker, and perhaps reduce out balance of payments deficit with the EU?

On the other side, how much would we lose because of our dependence on frictionless trade with EU?  Just asking, I don't get economics.  >:(

It's estimated the cost of no deal would be £160 billion..... if evenly spread, which it won't be,  6K per UK household.

However this was pointed out at the time of the ref and people voted to make themselves poorer. Quite radical really and why the decision deserves respect.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, December 17, 2018, 15:47:39
Corbyn didn't create this crisis, but he's helping to perpetuate it.  If May is allowed to go home for Christmas without having put the deal on offer to a vote, people will quite rightly ask why Corbyn failed so abjectly to bring this to a head.  The idea that everyone heads off at the end of this week and the whole situation gets put on hold until next year is insane.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, December 17, 2018, 15:50:48
It's estimated the cost of no deal would be £160 billion..... if evenly spread, which it won't be,  6K per UK household.

However this was pointed out at the time of the ref and people voted to make themselves poorer. Quite radical really and why the decision deserves respect.

Pointed out by some, and flatly rejected by others.  The loudest message was that we would be £350m/week better off as a result of contributions saved.  So your following point ('Quite radical...') doesn't stand up to scrutiny.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, December 17, 2018, 16:08:02
Pointed out by some, and flatly rejected by others.  The loudest message was that we would be £350m/week better off as a result of contributions saved.  So your following point ('Quite radical...') doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Technically in the long run contributions saved could be put into the domestic pot... you'd have to have been pretty stupid to have thought that even when the likes of Farage and Mogg said there would be a financial hit, but would argue about how deep and how long, that all the money would flow one way... and I'm sure you're not calling Brexiteers like SRK stupid  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 17, 2018, 16:15:24
Yippee. The currently pointless meaningful vote has been moved to the week of 14th January.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, December 17, 2018, 16:18:47
Yippee. The currently pointless meaningful vote has been moved to the week of 14th January.

We do not have a government at the moment.  Theresa May is no more in control than I am.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, December 17, 2018, 16:32:53
We do not have a government at the moment.  Theresa May is no more in control than I am.

THis does at least have the advantage that they can't do any more damage....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, December 17, 2018, 17:00:55
May just said that: "Avoiding ‘no deal’ is only possible if we can reach an agreement or if we abandon Brexit entirely."

Well I don't think the former is going to happen Theresa, do you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, December 17, 2018, 17:39:21
Taken from the Guardian feed of the debate in parliament:

17:37 Labour’s Ruth George says she has surveyed thousands of leave voters in her constituency. She says half of them want to stay in the customs union or the single market. May should listen to them, she says.

If true, this does undermine the claims you hear from some quarters that the Leave vote is implicitly also a vote to leave the Single Market & Customs Union.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Monday, December 17, 2018, 18:10:03
17:37 Labour’s Ruth George says she has surveyed thousands of leave voters in her constituency. She says half of them want to stay in the customs union or the single market. May should listen to them, she says.

If true, this does undermine the claims you hear from some quarters that the Leave vote is implicitly also a vote to leave the Single Market & Customs Union.

I wonder if she told the voters she surveyed that staying in the single market would require free movement of people, which is against her own party's stated policy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Monday, December 17, 2018, 22:10:55
Taken from the Guardian feed of the debate in parliament:

17:37 Labour’s Ruth George says she has surveyed thousands of leave voters in her constituency. She says half of them want to stay in the customs union or the single market. May should listen to them, she says.

If true, this does undermine the claims you hear from some quarters that the Leave vote is implicitly also a vote to leave the Single Market & Customs Union.

That’s a load of codswallop. Leave voters knew full well that leaving meant leaving the single market and customs union- even Cameron said it.

She’s another MP trying desperately to over ride a Democratic vote for her own ends


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, December 17, 2018, 22:38:07
That’s a load of codswallop. Leave voters knew full well that leaving meant leaving the single market and customs union- even Cameron said it.

This is factually incorrect.  Some Leave voters 'knew' voting Leave meant exiting the SM & CU, while others 'knew' that it meant the opposite.  There was no consensus then, just as there is no consensus now.  It's completely fucked up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Monday, December 17, 2018, 22:42:29
This is factually incorrect.  Some Leave voters 'knew' voting Leave meant exiting the SM & CU, while others 'knew' that it meant the opposite.  There was no consensus then, just as there is no consensus now.  It's completely fucked up.

Oh come on they never knew it meant the opposite. All key figures in both campaigns said it you’re really clutching at straws here


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, December 17, 2018, 22:49:19
Not at all.  The idea that there was anything approaching a consensus on this is a complete fallacy.  It's one of the reasons we're in the mess we're now in...Leave was never defined.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 06:18:04
I believe in democracy, even if some people using an STFC former manager's name do not. The referendum for the UK to leave the EU was clearly won by a majority of 1,269,501.

Let's start counting one of those people per second as we imagine they walk by us. That would take over two weeks, i.e. on New Year's Day we would still be counting those people. Let's bear that in mind as we continue to debate this into 2019.

Some people are bad losers; get over it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 07:06:55
I believe in democracy...

You believe in your own interpretation of democracy, and nothing more.  We've been round this point so many times now that it's getting boring...but SM & CU membership were never on the ballot.  This is a fact.

The rest of your post is irrelevant and meaningless.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 07:10:25
I believe in being able to change a result of a shit decision. imagine applying a 'can't change your mind' rule to every day life. good grief.

In any case, if parliament can't agree a withdrawl agreement and rightly block 'no deal' where does that leave us? Extend article 50 .. then if still deadlocked... Peoples vote...

think it's a bit dangerous to assume remain would win under such circumstances though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 07:31:49
Can’t see how the result of a democratic vote being ‘dangerous’ - no matter which side of the debate you’re on.

If people are still convinced being out is what they want, so be it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 07:44:43
You believe in your own interpretation of democracy, and nothing more.  We've been round this point so many times now that it's getting boring...but SM & CU membership were never on the ballot.  This is a fact.

The rest of your post is irrelevant and meaningless.

The views of over a 1.2 million people majority - irrelevant and meaningless ???!!!

I am still counting those people. One per second remember. Tick tock.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: brocklesby red on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 08:31:36
I believe in being able to change a result of a shit decision. imagine applying a 'can't change your mind' rule to every day life. good grief.

It would cut the divorce rate down for starters


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 08:35:16
OK.  I'm going to have to spell this out for you.

The 17.4m Leave voters did not all vote for the same version of Leave.  Some (like you) voted to also leave the SM & CU; and others did not.

The UK leaves the EU.  That is established.  But there is no majority to leave the SM & CU, and there never has been.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 08:39:56
You believe in your own interpretation of democracy, and nothing more.  We've been round this point so many times now that it's getting boring...but SM & CU membership were never on the ballot.  This is a fact.

The rest of your post is irrelevant and meaningless.

quote
You believe in your own interpretation of democracy, and nothing more. As do you sir....

The rest of your post is irrelevant and meaningless. As is yours in effect.

There are those amongst you with your left wing remainer stance who quote The Guardian, Independent and other left leaning papers as if it is the gospel. Yet when others who are of the opposite views quote right leaning papers they are shouted down or derided. You cannot have it both ways. If you wish others to take your opinions seriously you have to give the same back.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 08:41:01
This thread is actually a prime example of the problems we have. People talking to each other like absolute cunts if they have a differing opinion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 08:47:49
There are those amongst you with your left wing remainer stance who quote The Guardian, Independent and other left leaning papers as if it is the gospel. Yet when others who are of the opposite views quote right leaning papers they are shouted down or derided. You cannot have it both ways. If you wish others to take your opinions seriously you have to give the same back.

That's what happens when both sides have such strong views and no strong majority. Not any wng myself though, don't read newspapers at all either. And I sure as hell can't have got remain influenced by the BBC! Must be individual thought.


This thread is actually a prime example of the problems we have. People talking to each other like absolute cunts if they have a differing opinion.

Right, May talks about pulling the country together - too late.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 08:55:03
That’s a load of codswallop. Leave voters knew full well that leaving meant leaving the single market and customs union- even Cameron said it.

She’s another MP trying desperately to over ride a Democratic vote for her own ends

Revisionist nonsense.


Quote from: Michael Gove
There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will remain in this zone.

The suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and the Ukraine would stay part of this free trade area - and Britain would be on the outside with just Belarus - is as credible as Jean-Claude Juncker joining UKIP.

Agreeing to maintain this continental free trade zone is the simple course and emphatically in everyone’s interests.

Quote from: Daniel Hannan
To repeat, absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market. 

Quote from: Oliver Norgrove
We argue for things which are utterly achievable in the EEA and make no mention at all of leaving the single market

Quote from: Owen Paterson, MP
Only a madman would actually leave the Market

Quote from: Nigel Farage
Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing

Quote from: Arron Banks
Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 09:03:41
There are those amongst you with your left wing remainer stance who quote The Guardian, Independent and other left leaning papers as if it is the gospel. Yet when others who are of the opposite views quote right leaning papers they are shouted down or derided. You cannot have it both ways. If you wish others to take your opinions seriously you have to give the same back.

Sorry you feel that way, genuinely.  But I have tried in recent posts on this thread to stick to the facts...those being that CU & SM membership are not inextricably linked to EU membership (ask Turkey or Norway).  I am simply challenging the stance put forward by some that the vote in 2016 to leave the EU was also a vote to leave the SM & CU.  It was not, either legally - or in any other sense.

Time to step back from the fray, I agree.  This is going nowhere.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 09:34:17
This thread is actually a prime example of the problems we have. People talking to each other like absolute cunts if they have a differing opinion.

Spot on


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 10:05:36
Sorry you feel that way, genuinely.  But I have tried in recent posts on this thread to stick to the facts...those being that CU & SM membership are not inextricably linked to EU membership (ask Turkey or Norway).  I am simply challenging the stance put forward by some that the vote in 2016 to leave the EU was also a vote to leave the SM & CU.  It was not, either legally - or in any other sense.

Time to step back from the fray, I agree.  This is going nowhere.

Stick with it... the more you talk about something, try and explain, the more chance there is of overcoming entrenched positions, sometimes it can be a slow process.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 10:45:12
An overwhelming(!) majority are now against democracy!

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-data-poll-53-of-british-public-want-second-eu-referendum-11584278


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 10:51:54
But its the will of the people.

Disappointingly weak majority that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 11:00:11
But its the will of the people.

Disappointingly weak majority that.

It's stronger than it looks at first sight.  The breakdown is 53% for a 2nd referendum; 36% against; and 11% don't know/undecided.

Not sure where I stand on that question, to be honest.  Probably in favour on balance, but with reservations.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 11:00:21
But its the will of the people.

Disappointingly weak majority that.

FWIW many are not in favour of a 'new' referendum, they merely want a repeat referendum to be held that is not mired in lies, criminal acts, foreign interference and bollocks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 11:38:02
Ah, I see


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 11:48:57
Revisionist nonsense.



Saw all these on reddit thread yesterday, saw no pro-leave justification. Be surprised if I see any on here


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 11:55:55
But its the will of the people.

Disappointingly weak majority that.

The only ref which could be slightly justified would be May's deal or no deal..... but Parliament can decide on that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 12:35:52
I can understand the leavers' argument that to have a further referendum would involve a "betrayal" of the referendum outcome.  I believed it was a "once in a generation" opportunity and I believe that was the majority understanding.

Farage made it clear before the referendum that the leave campaign would be continued if it lost by 52:48.  That seems fair in a free country.  And for Remain too, of course.

Since then, we have had a democratic parliamentary election.  The result, completely uncontemplated by most electors, is a Conservative government dependent on a confidence and supply arrangement with the DUP.

Add to that the intransigence of some leaver MPs (such as the ERG) who are apparently unwilling to compromise over the draft Withdrawal Agreement and we have a situation where a further referendum could be deemed by Parlaiment to be the best solution to unblock the parliamentary impasse.

A free vote coming from our sovereign Parliament could NEVER be "undemocratic".  To challenge that would be to challenge "democracy".  In particular, it is the ERG Tory zealots' unwillingness to compromise on anything but a maniacal "pure" Brexit, that risks frustrating the much more varied "Will" once expressed by the 17m.

Still, if that "Will" is unchanged, what's the problem?  If it has changed then it can hardly be democratic to force through an earlier but abandoned "Will".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 12:38:50
Saw all these on reddit thread yesterday, saw no pro-leave justification. Be surprised if I see any on here

There won't be any on here as the usual suspects don't actually read anyone else's posts. They just spout their vitriol and nonsense and then huff off till the next day.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 12:43:01
I can understand the leavers' argument that to have a further referendum would involve a "betrayal" of the referendum outcome.  I believed it was a "once in a generation" opportunity and I believe that was the majority understanding.

Farage made it clear before the referendum that the leave campaign would be continued if it lost by 52:48.  That seems fair in a free country.  And for Remain too, of course.

Since then, we have had a democratic parliamentary election.  The result, completely uncontemplated by most electors, is a Conservative government dependent on a confidence and supply arrangement with the DUP.

Add to that the intransigence of some leaver MPs (such as the ERG) who are apparently unwilling to compromise over the draft Withdrawal Agreement and we have a situation where a further referendum could be deemed by Parlaiment to be the best solution to unblock the parliamentary impasse.

A free vote coming from our sovereign Parliament could NEVER be "undemocratic".  To challenge that would be to challenge "democracy".  In particular, it is the ERG Tory zealots' unwillingness to compromise on anything but a maniacal "pure" Brexit, that risks frustrating the much more varied "Will" once expressed by the 17m.

Still, if that "Will" is unchanged, what's the problem?  If it has changed then it can hardly be undemocratic to force through an earlier but abandoned "Will".

The thing is much is made of parliament ignoring the will of the people, rather ignoring the fact that the government has done nothing except Brexit since 2016, the country is dying on its arse because of this, it is not going to get any better post March 2019...

As for the democracy argument, musing for a while... What would cause ‘irreparable damage’ to democracy?

lying to people?
removing rights?
hiding vital information?
calling them names?
chronic incompetence?
uninformed MPs?
shunning scrutiny?
imposing your unpopular version of Brexit?

Or

giving people a vote?

 :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 12:48:21
Since then, we have had a democratic parliamentary election.  The result, completely uncontemplated by most electors, is a Conservative government dependent on a confidence and supply arrangement with the DUP.

In which both Labour and Tories, both had a manifesto pledge to respect the referendum result to leave the EU, and had 82% of the vote.  Therefore, if Parliament can't decide how to leave the EU and needs the advice of a plebicite, the question asked should only be about the terms of leaving.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 13:32:45
Sorry you feel that way, genuinely.  But I have tried in recent posts on this thread to stick to the facts...those being that CU & SM membership are not inextricably linked to EU membership (ask Turkey or Norway).  I am simply challenging the stance put forward by some that the vote in 2016 to leave the EU was also a vote to leave the SM & CU.  It was not, either legally - or in any other sense.

Time to step back from the fray, I agree.  This is going nowhere.

I agree with you on the technicalities.  What was evident during the "debate" was that we'd done an alarmingly poor job of educating the UK population on the various European political and trade related structures going back to before the original vote to join.  How can you hope to have a populace that is behind something when all they have heard for 40 years is a bunch of sound bites designed to support a political battle on the home front, from both sides.

Take the Army question for example, which to be fair was raised more after the vote.  People right now are of the belief that not being a member of the EU would take that off the agenda, but out current Govt. is actively supporting such a move, not to create a single EU funded Army, but in fact to create a partnership like NATO.  That hasn't stopped some people talking about it as if Germany will be able to conscript UK citizens to bid it's will in some future war.

The reality is people, on the whole, just don't understand how the thing works, or that the the thing isn't even every thing.  We belong to a variety of different bodies.

Despite all that though, I think if you outline all of the information, you'd still be a generation or two away from people actively supporting the idea of being in the "club".

Assume we were not members of any of it right now.  Would people actively vote to join if they had all the information?  I don't think so.  I think a proportion of the Leave vote would be never over their dead bodies, some would be actively against it and some of the remain vote would be against joining something that has end goals they don't align too, even if it meant passing up some economic benefits and a small proportion would actively seek membership.  The countries view of nationhood is too entrenched and we still have the Second World War too close in our rear view mirror.  We think that people want to invade, that we fought to to hold on to something that would be given away - the reality of course being we fought a mad man who held horrific views on how the world should look.  The idea of nations is still quite young, and we haven't worked though it yet.  Some of the EU is more open to the idea -for starters, they've changed countries in their lifetime, they travel between borders more readily - Northern Italy feels a bit like Germany for example, continental Europe is more regional.  There is still nervousness, hence the slow progress the EU actually makes towards full integration.

Overall, we joined for the wrong reasons, we will leave for the wrong reasons.  We should take a few years to work out what we want as a "country" and then move in the right direction.  I hope my view becomes more mainstream, I doubt it in my life time though.  A couple of centuries from now, what we know as out country will be a footnote in history, just like the Kingdom of Wessex.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 15:00:52
In which both Labour and Tories, both had a manifesto pledge to respect the referendum result to leave the EU, and had 82% of the vote.  Therefore, if Parliament can't decide how to leave the EU and needs the advice of a plebicite, the question asked should only be about the terms of leaving.
It's a fair point Reg but we elect MPs who vote according to conscience and judgement.  Manifesto pledges are broken by parties.  Sometimes a party trying to honour a pledge fails to force an MP to vote in a certain way.

What will happen will happen.  British democracy may work in mysterious ways, just like Russian bots but a vote to remain in a further referendum would still be democratic.  As will any other outcome.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 15:31:04
In which both Labour and Tories, both had a manifesto pledge to respect the referendum result to leave the EU, and had 82% of the vote.  Therefore, if Parliament can't decide how to leave the EU and needs the advice of a plebicite, the question asked should only be about the terms of leaving.

As Labour were not elected at the election, I am not sure to what extent they can be held to pledges in their manifesto, Magic Grandpa makes much that policy is set by members at conference....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 15:31:27
Taken from... https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/12/13/across-the-world-anglophilia-is-giving-way-to-anglobemusement? which is an interesting read in itself....

The second thing is the amateurism. Britain was thought to have a Rolls-Royce government. This reputation was so solid that the EU's Brexit negotiators initially wondered if the incompetence of their British counterparts was a clever ruse to lull foreigners into a false sense of security. No longer: it turns out that the Rolls-Royce is more of a Morris Minor. European politicians puzzle over how a fellow member of their tribe could begin the Brexit talks without a plan, or appoint an addlepated popinjay such as David Davis to act as chief negotiator.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 15:39:46
An EU admin trade off - we've been running a low cost government in recent decades because we don't need to employ as many civil servants given that the EU takes care of things like trade deals.  It's an area where costs of Govt. are likely to increase post exit.  That seem like an oxymoron given the waste you see in Govt., but it is a reality that the EU took up quite a bit of the admin work we would previously have held in house.  Like needing to set-up a department tasked with administering the "Visa Waiver" process that will need to be put in place for EU travellers, if we want to have the same offered to us by EU countries, which seems likely given the flow of tourism.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 15:53:28
An EU admin trade off - we've been running a low cost government in recent decades because we don't need to employ as many civil servants given that the EU takes care of things like trade deals.  It's an area where costs of Govt. are likely to increase post exit.  That seem like an oxymoron given the waste you see in Govt., but it is a reality that the EU took up quite a bit of the admin work we would previously have held in house.  Like needing to set-up a department tasked with administering the "Visa Waiver" process that will need to be put in place for EU travellers, if we want to have the same offered to us by EU countries, which seems likely given the flow of tourism.

Yet we employ c.420,000 civil servants, but that bureaucratic EU employ c. 32,000?

I apologise that this is the Guardian but its a decent summary of what the guy said and its better than trawling through pages of it!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/18/ivan-rogers-brexit-bombshell-digested-home-truths


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 15:57:30
The countries view of nationhood is too entrenched and we still have the Second World War too close in our rear view mirror.  We think that people want to invade, that we fought to to hold on to something that would be given away - the reality of course being we fought a mad man who held horrific views on how the world should look.

Overall, we joined for the wrong reasons, we will leave for the wrong reasons.  I hope my view becomes more mainstream, I doubt it in my life time though.  A couple of centuries from now, what we know as out country will be a footnote in history, just like the Kingdom of Wessex.

Totally agree with the comments on a nationhood entrenched and WII etc. Germany have managed to largely put it behind them, with huge remorse and continued apology. They still moved on though. Why can't we as a collective?

In regard to "join for wrong, leave for wrong". It does seem as if we love to make bad decisions based on the protective nature of our nationhood.

People shouldn't really be worried about "losing their identities", we just happen to be living in a time where we are at a geographical and political cusp of change. It's difficult, it's understandable but it shouldn't be feared. Mapping has continually changed throughout history. We shouldn't think we are immune to any changes to our own map in the near future but people do get offended, by essentially an imaginary line (the word I was hunting for was territorial not offended). Many do it all the time, even with our own houses and gardens "that's my 1ft of garden you've put your fence on". It transposes into our own UK towns, counties, regions, countries and even the North/South divide. The fear of course, is by taking away a sense of belonging to something; your "roots" per se.

As stated above, it is all but a line on a map that causes so much pain, division, battle and anger. The UK is fast becoming an overprotective parent and should heed the economic dangers of not allowing itself to breathe.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 16:01:08
Taken from... https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/12/13/across-the-world-anglophilia-is-giving-way-to-anglobemusement? which is an interesting read in itself....

The second thing is the amateurism. Britain was thought to have a Rolls-Royce government. This reputation was so solid that the EU's Brexit negotiators initially wondered if the incompetence of their British counterparts was a clever ruse to lull foreigners into a false sense of security. No longer: it turns out that the Rolls-Royce is more of a Morris Minor. European politicians puzzle over how a fellow member of their tribe could begin the Brexit talks without a plan, or appoint an addlepated popinjay such as David Davis to act as chief negotiator.

Aah popinjay! One of my favourites. :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 16:28:42
It's a fair point Reg but we elect MPs who vote according to conscience and judgement.  Manifesto pledges are broken by parties.  Sometimes a party trying to honour a pledge fails to force an MP to vote in a certain way.

What will happen will happen.  British democracy may work in mysterious ways, just like Russian bots but a vote to remain in a further referendum would still be democratic.  As will any other outcome.

Our democracy is flawed, but it's the only one we have, and it's better than the alternatives sought by those on the right.

A bit like Dunkirk, everything will work out fine though, similar to local Tory leader Renard, HMG is making contingency plans for a no-deal Brexit, civil breakdown in April. Williamson is going to mobilise 3500 troops.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 16:57:14
Why the clamour for a second referendum didn`t we get it wrong the first time around..? Whose to say we the public will fuck it up again?
How come we don`t hear much about the £ 39 billion we won`t have to pay if we leave without an agreement..?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 17:18:12
One for SRK to get his teeth into

https://www.facebook.com/1019493592/posts/10216063871802465/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 17:29:40
How come we don`t hear much about the £ 39 billion we won`t have to pay if we leave without an agreement..?
Because we do have to pay it. It's money we have already committed to pay before Brexit. If we try to get out of paying that, we are saying as a nation that any agreement we enter into with other nations is worthless as we will renege on our side of it at our own whim. Good luck trying to come to all those lovely Free Trade deals the Brexiteers keep promising will make the milk and honey flow if we do that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 17:32:12
How come we don`t hear much about the £ 39 billion we won`t have to pay if we leave without an agreement..?

How come we don't hear the IMFs best case no deal affect on GDP is 5% v staying in?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 17:40:01
I wonder how things would have turned out if Thatcher was in charge of this.

Now, that would have been fun watching.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 17:47:58
I wonder how things would have turned out if Thatcher was in charge of this.

Now, that would have been fun watching.

Thatcher was very keen on the single market, she felt it one of the UK's success stories within the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 18:57:20
Because we do have to pay it. It's money we have already committed to pay before Brexit. If we try to get out of paying that, we are saying as a nation that any agreement we enter into with other nations is worthless as we will renege on our side of it at our own whim. Good luck trying to come to all those lovely Free Trade deals the Brexiteers keep promising will make the milk and honey flow if we do that.

Wrong. Legally we do not owe them a penny- the house of lords committee have proved this.

Morally we should pay something but I would only do this non receipt of a satisfactory trade deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 19:00:51
Because we do have to pay it. It's money we have already committed to pay before Brexit. If we try to get out of paying that, we are saying as a nation that any agreement we enter into with other nations is worthless as we will renege on our side of it at our own whim. Good luck trying to come to all those lovely Free Trade deals the Brexiteers keep promising will make the milk and honey flow if we do that.

Yep, why on earth would we bother paying for an invoice we already signed?  madness, it's like it might have some sort of negative impact on sorting out a trade deal with one of the biggest trade blocks in the world.

We equally will not be paying any contributions to the EU, so we will be able to fund the extra border controls, immigration civil servants and trade negotiators.

I do wish people would stop dragging out pointless data to try and support what is an entirely ideological reason to leave the EU.  Economic history is clear - free or near free trade creates wealth as we know it.  Trade limits reduce that.  Not being in the EU WILL have immediate negative economic/financial impacts to the UK.  People just need to get over that, it will happen.  To what extent is  unknown.

Set that to one side, you voted out because you do not agree with the principles of the EU.  That's fine, if that is your personal belief.  If the sovereignty of the UK as we know it today is so important to you (not you PaulD) then you are right to want to now be in the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 19:34:56
Wrong. Legally we do not owe them a penny- the house of lords committee have proved this.

Morally we should pay something but I would only do this non receipt of a satisfactory trade deal.

Sorry Outlet but the House of Lords Committee found that the "better" legal opinion was the view that there was no legal obligation to make a payment.  I can discuss the alternative view and why it is to be preferred whilst accepting that, as with so much law, there is no black and white answer.

Once again confident dissemination of fake facts and absolutes by a leaver who either doesn't quite have a handle on the intricacies or chooses to ignore them.  The House of Lords Committee didn't even contain one law Lord (or even a practising or former practising lawyer) and wouldn't even influence our own Supreme Court.

The matter would certainly be litigated, there would be claims not only for what was due but costs, interest, consequentiual damages possibly as well as serious reputational damage to the UK's reliability on treaties.  That isn't a great look for Trump's USA but for a middling economy to risk being found welching on treaty agreements wouldn't be a good look at all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 19:48:59
Our democracy is flawed, but it's the only one we have, and it's better than the alternatives sought by those on the right.

A bit like Dunkirk, everything will work out fine though, similar to local Tory leader Renard, HMG is making contingency plans for a no-deal Brexit, civil breakdown in April. Williamson is going to mobilise 3500 troops.

In all seriousness, we've left it way too late.

My money is on the Withdrawal Agreement (with a clarification or two) passing.

I'd love a referendum and a remain outcome (obviously at a price of something like SRK and Legends donning their "gilets jaunes"  :) and perhaps worse)

Some would love a no deal.  Although the chaos could be sort of funny (with perhaps less deaths than Project Fear estimated), there could be some real losers here, amongst the vulnerable, as usual.  Those prepared to die on the hill of Brexit won't actually be the ones to suffer.





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 18, 2018, 21:43:22
Wrong. Legally we do not owe them a penny- the house of lords committee have proved this.
1) RedRag has already set out why that doesn't count for shit
2) Even if it did, like I say, good luck striking any trade deals with anyone if we try to welch on the money our government have always admitted we owe the EU


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 06:10:19
I believe in democracy, even if some people using an STFC former manager's name do not. The referendum for the UK to leave the EU was clearly won by a majority of 1,269,501.

Let's start counting one of those people per second as we imagine they walk by us. That would take over two weeks, i.e. on New Year's Day we would still be counting those people. Let's bear that in mind as we continue to debate this into 2019.

Some people are bad losers; get over it!

Still counting? One person per second remember, ever since my above post yesterday. There are still over 1.1 million people to walk by. One EVERY second into 2019.

Despite mind-reading attempts as to what people should have or wanted to vote for, all those people gave a majority for the UK to leave the EU. Remoaners, remainiacs etc - time to swing behind the leaving process and unify the country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 08:34:58
Remoaners, remainiacs etc - time to swing behind the leaving process and unify the country.

That's not going to happen. Its like saying a lot of people want to shoot themselves in the foot, so lets all do it for the sake of unity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 09:14:15
Remoaners, remainiacs etc - time to swing behind the leaving process and unify the country.
A call for unity might go better if you didn't start it by insulting the people you want to unite behind you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 09:36:33
Despite mind-reading attempts as to what people should have or wanted to vote for, all those people gave a majority for the UK to leave the EU. Remoaners, remainiacs etc - time to swing behind the leaving process and unify the country.

Much as I understand the need to pull things together at some point, I can't 'swing behind' Brexit - because it goes against just about everything that I believe in.

If there was a vote narrowly in favour of everyone supporting Oxford United, I'd swerve that as well...and suspect that you would too.  Brexit is your baby, not mine.  Swing behind it all you like, but I'll be watching on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 09:38:50
A call for unity might go better if you didn't start it by insulting the people you want to unite behind you?
Its not an insult, its the truth. Oh how I'm enjoying this,Merry Christmas.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 09:40:53
Much as I understand the need to pull things together at some point, I can't 'swing behind' Brexit - because it goes against just about everything that I believe in.

If there was a vote narrowly in favour of everyone supporting Oxford United, I'd swerve that as well...and suspect that you would too.  Brexit is your baby, not mine.  Swing behind it all you like, but I'll be watching on.

Are you going to stick in the UK Ardiles?  I know quite a few especially younger people who've done an Audrey and exercised their right to free movement, while still possible.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 09:44:08
I'm flattered that you put me in that bracket, Reg.  : )

Probably, yes.  But a move to Scotland (where my other half is from) at some point has moved up the agenda, certainly.  I really don't like what this country (by which I mean England) has become, and feel less at home here than I did.  For me, that's very sad.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 10:02:02
I'm flattered that you put me in that bracket, Reg.  : )

Probably, yes.  But a move to Scotland (where my other half is from) at some point has moved up the agenda, certainly.  I really don't like what this country (by which I mean England) has become, and feel less at home here than I did.  For me, that's very sad.

Certainly the Scottish question has been subsumed in the Irish question, but the logic is that the Union will split and Scotland will join the EU. So that should work


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 10:47:18
Arguments in favour of Scottish independence are stronger than they were in 2014, I agree.  But it's interesting...while Brexit chaos has bolstered support for independence in some areas, it's also focused attention on the practical/operational difficulties associated with disentangling long-standing arrangements.  You could argue that severing the UK from its 40 yr association with the EU would be a walk in the park compared with removing Scotland from its 300+ yr membership of the UK.  One reason, perhaps, why support for independence has not shifted more in a country that voted 62% in favour of Remain.  No easy answers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 11:00:34
Arguments in favour of Scottish independence are stronger than they were in 2014, I agree.  But it's interesting...while Brexit chaos has bolstered support for independence in some areas, it's also focused attention on the practical/operational difficulties associated with disentangling long-standing arrangements.  You could argue that severing the UK from its 40 yr association with the EU would be a walk in the park compared with removing Scotland from its 300+ yr membership of the UK.  One reason, perhaps, why support for independence has not shifted more in a country that voted 62% in favour of Remain.  No easy answers.

I agree with your analysis.  Interested that you state that support for (Scottish) independence has not shifted significantly.  Is that just a logical conclusion that you have drawn or has there been a recent survey?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 11:12:26
I agree with your analysis.  Interested that you state that support for (Scottish) independence has not shifted significantly.  Is that just a logical conclusion that you have drawn or has there been a recent survey?

Haven't research in detail, if I'm honest.  I'm basing that purely on what I think I've heard recently...that the 45% in favour of independence in 2014 may have risen to 50% or thereabouts since, but no higher.  Happy to be corrected, though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 11:22:04
I don't know either.  I do recall that some time back (summer I think) Nicola Sturgeon was saying that now is not the right time to be pushing for a second vote because they weren't confident enough of victory and knew that if they lost again then they would struggle to justify a third "once in a generation" vote for a long time.   I just wondered if something new that come up recently that I had missed in all the morass of Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 11:30:24
The EU is now set to reveal their plans for a no deal.

Meanwhile, the government is still making people wait nearly a month for a key vote on it. Surely businesses/people would rather know what's happening as soon as possible rather being made to wait by some dithering old rich woman that's more interested in keeping her job.

No pressure, Theresa, in your own time love. Don't mind everybody else, eh? It's only the rest of the fucking country that's waiting on you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 11:42:59
That's all true.  May's behaviour is grossly irresponsible.  But my frustration with Corbyn is also rising by the day.  The 'sit & wait' strategy may have been workable up until recently, but now (& especially since May's decision to pull the vote on her deal) it's looking weak & indecisive.

He's the Leader of the Opposition.  If he isn't going to oppose now, when is he going to start?  What is he for?  He's playing right in to the government's hands.  Surely he can see this?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 11:44:45
Surely May is trying to play on the fears of no deal to try and build public/business pressure so that the rebel MPs crumble. Hence the delays.

A massive game of brinkmanship.

Would she go through with it? Would parliament let her? I have no idea.
----------
Oh, and on the waiting....they're buggering off for Christmas until the 7th soon... Surely these are extraordinary times, enough to reduce that to a week.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 11:49:22
That's all true.  May's behaviour is grossly irresponsible.  But my frustration with Corbyn is also rising by the day.  The 'sit & wait' strategy may have been workable up until recently, but now (& especially since May's decision to pull the vote on her deal) it's looking weak & indecisive.

He's the Leader of the Opposition.  If he isn't going to oppose now, when is he going to start?  What is he for?  He's playing right in to the government's hands.  Surely he can see this?

I'm in two minds about this.

The lack of a clearly communicated plan of action/alternative frustrates the hell out of me.

On the flip side, it is thought Tory MPs/DUP will rally round and prevent any parliamentary vote of no confidence in the government.

I think he is playing the brinkmanship game too. He presumably thinks removing the government as soon as it is apparent Mays deal is dead after the vote (assuming that happens).

Then what?

Can only see an extension of article 50 and possibly a GE.

Change of government - just can't see anyone backing a peoples vote and knackering their own party in doing so - except the lib dems. They knackered their own vote on tuition fees.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 12:13:47
No doubt the lip readers will have noticed Corby’s ‘Stupid woman’ mouthing during PMQs


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 12:59:43
No doubt the lip readers will have noticed Corby’s ‘Stupid woman’ mouthing during PMQs

Its all kicked off on PMQs. They are still talking about it now, "outraged".



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 13:19:59
She is a stupid woman


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 13:26:02
And the mainstream media go mental.  Luckily Jeremy doesn't take abuse much much worse than that week in week out from the rats in the tory party hiding behind the benches shouting abuse.

Fucking nonsense that will allow Kuensberg, Crick, Deacon, the mail, the times, the telegraph, the express and every other centerist and right wing commentator to feign outrage at the sanctity of parliament being ruined.  

2 weeks after May and the tories have been found in contempt of parliament and a week after May restores the whip to alleged sex pests and rapists to cling to power.

And 18 months after she has bribed the DUP with a billion of our money to cling to power.

I know what Im more outraged by.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 13:33:41
But all very helpful in distracting attention from the unfortunate reality that she's taking the country down the shitter.  The language was unparliamentary and discourteous.  But it's difficult to argue that he didn't have a point.

Another episode in Hapless Jeremy's litany of Brexit missteps.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 14:27:04
It didn’t look like he said woman to me :/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 14:33:29
I would have been kicked out for calling them all cock juggling thundercunts a long time ago.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 15:03:38
I would have been kicked out for calling them all cock juggling thundercunts a long time ago.

I bloody love it it Corbyn bame back, did a Father Jack apology, then go on to say "what I really meant is she is a cock juggling thundercunt"



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 15:52:26
Everyone can see he said ‘stupid woman’. Trying to deny it is going to be far worse than a quick apology and forgetting about it.

The more I see of him the more I’m convinced he’s a disaster waiting to happen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 16:07:12
Corbyn's vs May, it's a race to the bottom between those two. Meanwhile, nice to see the Mail staying classy as usual:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/19/daily-mail-journalist-joanna-bell-ejected-irish-embassy-brexit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 16:07:12
The more I see of him the more I’m convinced he’s a disaster waiting to happen.

I doubt we'll ever know. Even "women of the people" Soubry wouldn't back him in a vote of no confidence. Presumably her convictions on a 'no deal' brexit only go so far.
--
Those calling it misogynistic need to look up the definition of the word


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: thepeoplesgame on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 16:12:20
2 weeks after May and the tories have been found in contempt of parliament and a week after May restores the whip to alleged sex pests and rapists to cling to power.

And 18 months after she has bribed the DUP with a billion of our money to cling to power.

I know what Im more outraged by.


Quite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 17:02:56
Still counting? One person per second remember, ever since my above post yesterday. There are still over 1.1 million people to walk by. One EVERY second into 2019.

Despite mind-reading attempts as to what people should have or wanted to vote for, all those people gave a majority for the UK to leave the EU. Remoaners, remainiacs etc - time to swing behind the leaving process and unify the country.

There are 13 million other people too. That didn't vote Leave/Remain, maybe because they didn't agree with what was written on the ballot.

Now let us be ridiculous and imagine there are 13 million people to walk by. EVERY second into 2019. That would take 24 weeks. We would have passed the March 2019 deadline by some distance.

Despite mind reading attempts as to saying Leave was a majority. Those people plus another 15 million didn't vote to Leave. I make that 28 million. An overwhelming majority. Those 1.27million can walk on by.

I'm being ridiculous, of course because I can only treat ridiculous with ridiculous.

Tick tock, clock is ticking  :soapy tit wank:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 17:14:19
I'm flattered that you put me in that bracket, Reg.  : )

Probably, yes.  But a move to Scotland (where my other half is from) at some point has moved up the agenda, certainly.  I really don't like what this country (by which I mean England) has become, and feel less at home here than I did.  For me, that's very sad.

For me, this is also incredibly sad. To hear that a person no longer feels at home in this country really is incredibly sad. I'm sorry you feel this way Ardiles. I have similar thoughts and being one of "the young ones", I'm also considering my options. Some may rejoice at that - soapy tit wank. It however is very sad that the direction this country seems to have gone is forcing more people away. That can't be the answer but it is the current reality  :(


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 17:28:11
No doubt the lip readers will have noticed Corby’s ‘Stupid woman’ mouthing during PMQs

I'd have been more impressed if he called her a stupid cunt though.

In all seriousness, in regard to Brexit she is stupid. Now unless she's decided that she is now genderless or non-binary then what is she? A woman. In the current state of affairs she is a woman that is behaving stupidly. Quite accurate to call her a stupid woman". Likewise Nigel Farage is a stupid man.

All that aside, didn't he say "stupid people" anyway? MSM will no doubt use it as a chance to peg "misogyny" onto him. Oh and while we're on the topic of misogyny, funny how the Tories were very quick and fine about reinstating the whip, to two male Tory MPs (MP for Burton and I forget the other) recently? Oh and a Tory MP blocked the "upskirting debate*" too.


*Not related to skirting rebate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 17:36:13
It was 100% ‘stupid woman’ and he’s a very ‘stupid man’ to pretend otherwise.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 18:05:55
It was 100% ‘stupid woman’ and he’s a very ‘stupid man’ to pretend otherwise.

I think it's inconclusive. The pursing of his lips on the second word don't seem as pronounced as they would be for the word woman. I see on the second word he makes two softer pronounces at the beginning of each syllable, similar to people.

The word woman, recedes lip pursing after the the more pronounced "Wum". The "an" part results in the lips being drawn inwards. The word people as stated, pronounces more softly twice. Almost identically; "Pee" Pull". Watch again and his syllables on the second word are more equally pronounced than they are unbalanced. As they would be with "Woman".

In any case. Fucking pantomime and only detracts from the real issues.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 18:12:26
If he did say it (haven't seen the footage, been out all day in Newcastle and only just got in) he needs to apologise and his supporters need to stop digging the hole ever larger (despite his comment being possibly factually correct), Bercow also needs to be careful as it rather reflects what he said (again possibly correctly) about Leadsom.

Nice to see so many Tory MP's discovering their feminine sensitivities on this, pity they have been briefing this and worse behind her back for months and rather discredited by their recent performance in the commons delaying possible legislation on upskirting and FGM whilst the lady herself has facilitated letting MPs accused of sexual harassment back into their party to get their votes in internal power games., but small steps I suppose.

Its almost like he plans these things to let the Tories off the hook when pressure is bought to bear on Labour to actually do something! Mark Steel possibly has the best way to move forward...

I think, to shift the debate back to Brexit, he should say 'what I actually said was you're a bunch of lying incompetent racist sneering selfish despicable thieving dollops of cat mess, of either gender, I care not which', then we can all move on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 18:16:32
Despite mind-reading attempts as to what people should have or wanted to vote for, all those people gave a majority for the UK to leave the EU. Remoaners, remainiacs etc - time to swing behind the leaving process and unify the country.

Serious question, do you honestly think that people who voted against something which has split this country are really going to support something where the government is telling them that jobs will go, we will all be poorer (to whatever degree) and is leading to us, a first world country, having to start stockpiling medicines and the army taking to the streets?

A call for unity might go better if you didn't start it by insulting the people you want to unite behind you?

Yeah that caught my eye as well....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 18:20:28
I'm flattered that you put me in that bracket, Reg.  : )

Probably, yes.  But a move to Scotland (where my other half is from) at some point has moved up the agenda, certainly.  I really don't like what this country (by which I mean England) has become, and feel less at home here than I did.  For me, that's very sad.

I feel very similar, I am a proud Englishman but I am far from proud at what my country has become in the last 5 years, we don't have many options really but I do really hope that Scotland and NI bugger off at the first opportunity if they choose to.

BTW my mate moved from Witney to the Scottish Borders a few years back, best thing he ever did, massive house, lovely countryside he's loving it, although amusingly his eldest who was bought up in Oxon until they moved has a very English accent whilst his Youngest bought up in Scotland is very broad Scottish!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 18:21:48
Its not an insult, its the truth. Oh how I'm enjoying this,Merry Christmas.

I am intrigued to know, out of interest how old are you and what do you do for a living?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 18:30:30
I am intrigued to know, out of interest how old are you and what do you do for a living?
I'm 63 and a retired stock broker. Made a fortune in the 80's and now I live in the country, where I keep the walkers off my land. I love hunting, STFC and baiting commie twats. I feel like I'm on blind date.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 18:35:52
I see that Fiona Onasanya (Lab Peterborough) has finally been found guilty of perverting the course of justice.

She's a stupid woman (to coin a phrase) but she is also just a single MP who no more reflects the fitness of the labour party to run the country than a Tory caught shagging a rent boy would for the current government.  

The good news is that I'm sure that the Tories will disdain from trying to create any tacky political capital out of this.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 18:37:21
I'm 63 and a retired stock broker. Made a fortune in the 80's and now I live in the country, where I keep the walkers off my land. I love hunting, STFC and baiting commie twats. I feel like I'm on blind date.

Are you jordan belfort


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 19:08:05
Are you jordan belfort
No I'm not, I started my working life in a union run factory in Swindon and was a born and raised commie. I paid my union sub and when the time came for them to represent me they hung me out to dry. I tried to cancel my payment and was told it was a closed shop. The same rep who let me down said I'd be a scab and sent to Coventry if I caused any trouble. That was my last day as a commie, I enroled on a degree course in London, stayed at my Grans and worked my arse of in the city. During those years my only connect to Swindon was my STFC season ticket. Since those days I've never voted communist Labour or been a union member.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 21:39:48
Well this is rather amusing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Quagmire on Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 23:47:19
He should have just called her a stupid cunt, that changes it from a sexist comment to a factual one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 00:15:28
He should have just called her a stupid cunt, that changes it from a sexist comment to a factual one.

Agreed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 11:11:42
If nothing else I did not know that we are not allowed to use parliamentary footage for comedy purposes, you learn something new everyday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdHmp5EX5bE


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 11:41:01
 Watching BBC Parliament is certainly funnier than that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 11:42:42
If nothing else I did not know that we are not allowed to use parliamentary footage for comedy purposes, you learn something new everyday.

I think this gif has been used about a million times....

(https://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/theresa-may-laughing-gif-6.gif)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 11:52:49
I think this gif has been used about a million times....

(https://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/theresa-may-laughing-gif-6.gif)

Oh Phillip........


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 13:47:03
Note he doesn't specify whether its the will of the British or Russian people, but to be fair to the guy he has got to protect his investment.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/20/vladimir-putin-theresa-may-brexit-fulfil-will-of-the-people?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 14:31:39
Note he doesn't specify whether its the will of the British or Russian people, but to be fair to the guy he has got to protect his investment.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/20/vladimir-putin-theresa-may-brexit-fulfil-will-of-the-people?
It must be annoying for him though to have to give his orders to British politicians through the press, unlike the US where he can just direct dial straight into the White House.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 20:13:01
It must be annoying for him though to have to give his orders to British politicians through the press, unlike the US where he can just direct dial straight into the White House.
Any proof with that statement or did you just make it up?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 20:23:06
Any proof with that statement or did you just make it up?

Yeah, he went to the Kermlin and tried it himself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 20:45:06
Yeah, he went to the Kermlin and tried it himself.
Oh I see that link from the Guardian, don't know how to tell you this but that commie rag is false news. Just ignore it that paper is full of bollocks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 20:47:58
There is a direct line from the Kremlin to the White House.  Set up after the Cuban missile crisis.  I think I heard that it still works.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 20:56:18
Oh I see that link from the Guardian, don't know how to tell you this but that commie rag is false news. Just ignore it that paper is full of bollocks.

You're weird.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 21:08:04
You're weird.
No,the swivel eyed loons that read that shite are weird. Always have been. Its just that their so fucked up in the head, they can't understand the fact.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 22:01:47
No,the swivel eyed loons that read that shite are weird. Always have been. Its just that their so fucked up in the head, they can't understand the fact.

Oh just fucking give it in Sir Dread. It's getting boring now. Like the fake Reg, not fake Reg but could be fake Reg, bollocks.

We get it. You hate anything Left or Communist. I think you even hate yourself.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 22:23:23
Oh just fucking give it in Sir Dread. It's getting boring now. Like the fake Reg, not fake Reg but could be fake Reg, bollocks.

We get it. You hate anything Left or Communist. I think you even hate yourself.
It's so last year, Dossy did paranoid conspiracy theorist so much better.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 22:52:47
It's so last year, Dossy did paranoid conspiracy theorist so much better.

I think I might have a go at being an alter ego. How does "Heavily left-leaning socio communist, Nathaniel Taylor-Mantel" sound? You know, just for a bit of balance.

No, I'd end up pissing myself off and I should know better.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 22:53:04
Oh just fucking give it in Sir Dread. It's getting boring now. Like the fake Reg, not fake Reg but could be fake Reg, bollocks.

We get it. You hate anything Left or Communist. I think you even hate yourself.

Are you talking Chang Reg or Plowman Reg?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, December 20, 2018, 22:54:36
Are you talking Chang Reg or Reg Reg?

I'm talking Sir Dread Reg Chang Not Reg Chang Reg Ken. Just to clarify  :soapy tit wank:


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 21, 2018, 07:55:14
It's so last year, Dossy did paranoid conspiracy theorist so much better.

He's not a patch on Dossy.

Dossy has some depth and sincerity to his lunacy. This shit is nowt but mindless ranting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, December 21, 2018, 08:02:07
Oh just fucking give it in Sir Dread. It's getting boring now. Like the fake Reg, not fake Reg but could be fake Reg, bollocks.

We get it. You hate anything Left or Communist. I think you even hate yourself.
At the moment I'm loving myself, had to type this one handeddddd


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Friday, December 21, 2018, 09:12:02
Oh I see that link from the Guardian, don't know how to tell you this but that commie rag is false news. Just ignore it that paper is full of bollocks.

If you think the Guardian is an extreme 'commie rag' then you really are very very mild and conservative.

What newspaper do you think is the most truthful? Mail or Express?!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Friday, December 21, 2018, 09:22:24
We have our own Trump on the forum shouting fake news..  The TEF has really made it.. :popcorn:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!of the Guardian
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, December 21, 2018, 09:48:41
We have our own Trump on the forum shouting fake news..  The TEF has really made it.. :popcorn:
Yeah that post by testicle goat, regarding the integrity of the guardian, has outed him as our own Trump.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 21, 2018, 09:53:05
At the moment I'm loving myself, had to type this one handeddddd

Well that confirms at least one suspicion...

If you are struggling to understand Brexit https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1072222230791229440


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, December 21, 2018, 09:58:01
I think he's struggling to understand reality.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, December 21, 2018, 10:58:59
I think he's struggling to understand reality.

In that case he's in good company on this forum   :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, December 21, 2018, 11:06:32
Fair.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!of the Guardian
Post by: mystical_goat on Friday, December 21, 2018, 15:40:58
Yeah that post by testicle goat, regarding the integrity of the guardian, has outed him as our own Trump.

Are you just fishing or do you actually believe your nonsense? If it's the latter I remain keen to discover which newspapers you believe are worthwhile. I definitely have you down as an Express/Mail man.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 21, 2018, 18:02:08
I took to reading the comments below articles in the Express a few months back.  Morbid fascination is the best way I can describe it.  A bit like licking a battery.  You know it's going to be unpleasant, but you're inexplicably drawn to it anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!of the Guardian
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, December 21, 2018, 18:36:34
Are you just fishing or do you actually believe your nonsense? If it's the latter I remain keen to discover which newspapers you believe are worthwhile. I definitely have you down as an Express/Mail man.
I read all the media but the guardian,mirror,sun,observer,daily fail and the pile of leftard shite, the huffington post, are by far the worst.The express is a lone voice but not very reliable which leaves the Telegraph. The times and the bbc and Sly news are also commie publications. So much for a balanced media view, nearly all of them support the Frankfurt school of thought mostly for their own self advancement and the detriment of the mass.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, December 21, 2018, 19:14:48
I took to reading the comments below articles in the Express a few months back.  Morbid fascination is the best way I can describe it.  A bit like licking a battery.  You know it's going to be unpleasant, but you're inexplicably drawn to it anyway.

Yes or a Lead lolly. Also some of those Express "articles" make me wonder if the contributors have been licking Beryllium!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 21, 2018, 19:50:40
I love the way that just about every other word in an Express headline is in capitals.  As if 'erupts' and 'bricks' need capitals in order to hold the attention of their readers.

Barcelona ERUPTS: Riots break out as Catalonia protesters pelt police with BRICKS (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1062255/Barcelona-protests-riot-catalan-catalina-independence-pedro-sanchez-cabinet-pictures)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, December 21, 2018, 20:44:54
I love the way that just about every other word in an Express headline is in capitals.  As if 'erupts' and 'bricks' need capitals in order to hold the attention of their readers.

Barcelona ERUPTS: Riots break out as Catalonia protesters pelt police with BRICKS (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1062255/Barcelona-protests-riot-catalan-catalina-independence-pedro-sanchez-cabinet-pictures)

Nothing like added EMPHASIS on a verb and noun to really GRIP the reader. It does get worse though. If you then bring yourself to read their articles, it usually goes on to mention nothing in the headline and rambles on about something loosely related to it (aka a tedious link). In this case they'll probably reference to the Spanish Armada or something.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Sunday, December 23, 2018, 08:09:16
It is now impossible to listen to an interview on Radio Fucking Four's Today programme without the interviewee saying "Absolutely" .


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, December 23, 2018, 11:25:11
It is now impossible to listen to an interview on Radio Fucking Four's Today programme without the interviewee saying "Absolutely" .
"Absolutely"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Sunday, December 23, 2018, 14:23:34
Quote from: ID2
(https://i.redd.it/hgfydnjosu521.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Sunday, December 23, 2018, 16:51:40
Well not the whole country, just a very small proportion than can afford to fly overseas at Christmas time, a few skiers and sun worshippers got a little inconvenienced. 

Did anyone actual die as a direct consequence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, December 23, 2018, 17:13:58
Well not the whole country, just a very small proportion than can afford to fly overseas at Christmas time, a few skiers and sun worshippers got a little inconvenienced. 

Did anyone actual die as a direct consequence.

2 innocent drones had their flying days ended,so sad at this time of year.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 23, 2018, 17:20:42
Quote from: REDBUCK
Well not the whole country, just a very small proportion than can afford to fly overseas at Christmas time, a few skiers and sun worshippers got a little inconvenienced. 

Did anyone actual die as a direct consequence.

Be fair, some people were just trying to get back to see family, etc.

Wasn't impressed that the press named as shamed two local suspects that have been totally eliminated from the suspect list. It did lead to an amusingPiers Morgan backtrack though!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Sunday, December 23, 2018, 17:45:07
Did he have to call off the lynch mob.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, December 25, 2018, 08:50:46
I believe in democracy, even if some people using an STFC former manager's name do not. The referendum for the UK to leave the EU was clearly won by a majority of 1,269,501.

Let's start counting one of those people per second as we imagine they walk by us. That would take over two weeks, i.e. on New Year's Day we would still be counting those people. Let's bear that in mind as we continue to debate this into 2019.

Some people are bad losers; get over it!

Seven days on and I am still counting. That's a hell of log of people still walking by, and still another week's worth to go.

When you pull your first cracker today, when you set off for Northampton tomorrow, when Ardiles first tastes his partner's haggis, when you are singing Auld Lang Syne...EVERY second will one more person who voted leave than remain will walk by.

Her Majesty has called for unity. RESPECT the result of the referendum. Christmas will not be cancelled in 2019 as a result of leaving the European Union.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 25, 2018, 09:24:46
fuck the referendum result. it can kiss my ass.

merry Christmas


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, December 25, 2018, 11:42:21
fuck the referendum result. it can kiss my ass.

merry Christmas
brexit kissing your arse makes a change from those sailors.
Merry christmas


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, December 25, 2018, 15:10:03
Well, that was a really diverse choir featured heavily during the Queen's Speech. All ma!e & 95% white.

However, well done to Her Majesty for bigging up the Commonwealth and the opportunities it possesses.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, December 25, 2018, 17:16:16
Well, that was a really diverse choir featured heavily during the Queen's Speech. All ma!e & 95% white.


I noticed that choir and its a sad the lack of diversity.
Other countries in Africa and the middle east would have a mixed choir of all skin colours and peoples.
Coudenhove-Kalergi would be horrified at that display.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Wednesday, December 26, 2018, 00:04:06
Ah, Blue Mink's "Melting Pot" comes to mind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Monday, December 31, 2018, 14:15:21
I believe in democracy, even if some people using an STFC former manager's name do not. The referendum for the UK to leave the EU was clearly won by a majority of 1,269,501.

Let's start counting one of those people per second as we imagine they walk by us. That would take over two weeks, i.e. on New Year's Day we would still be counting those people. Let's bear that in mind as we continue to debate this into 2019.

Some people are bad losers; get over it!

Tick tock. I'm still counting that majority. One per second ever since 18th December, and still over a day to go.

How dare you. How DARE you ignore that overwhelming result. We leave the EU on 29th March 2019. End of.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, December 31, 2018, 15:38:55
Your life must be pretty fucking sad if you had the time to come on here on Christmas Day, under no provocation and post your ridiculous game of tickety-tockety.

I actually feel sorry for you, forget the commercialism of Christmas. I had fuck all cash to even engage in the "consumer event of the year" but was lucky enough and happy enough to spend all of that time with the people I love (and thankfully love me back, even if they think I'm annoying).

What's wrong Coombe up, did you not get that Nintendo Switch you so badly wanted? Life is perspective and even if you "hate" Christmas Day or the time that comes with it, it doesn't mean you need to bow down to commercialism. Enjoy the time with your friends or family or whomever you love. One day, they will be gone, you will be gone, I will be gone. It is the only guarantee, one which has been experienced at this very time of year by none other than swindonmaniac.

Whatever the response, Christmastide is not a time to be posting crap on forums. I genuinely hope you are ok and that this time of year isn't a tough one for you? As I always say to anyone on here (even those that don't like me), I'm always available for a private chat/vent/listen. I may go on myself but my cause is always genuine. The same offer applies to yourself.

Happy New Year.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, December 31, 2018, 18:31:14
Happy New Year.

And to you mate....

I think a bit of a lull in the political debate on here was correct during the main Festive period, but can get into full swing after tomorrow's football, especially as March will come soon enough with all the anticipated Brexit fun. 

However I did have an early snigger, that HMG have taken out sizeable contracts with ferry operators from Denmark and France, to try and get essential supplies around the port bottlenecks in the event of no deal.  Further a UK company which has no boats, no experience of running ferries, and a port that needs dredging before being able to take boats of the necessary draught has got a nice contract.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Monday, December 31, 2018, 19:05:08
I think a bit of a lull in the political debate on here was correct during the main Festive period

Which is quite ironic really. The Remain campaign called a 3-day pause to campaigning in the days following Jo Cox's death, which Leave agreed to then broke their promise. Leave actually upped their Facebook campaigning during that period - which was probably key to the result. Despicable.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/28/anger-brexit-ads-after-jo-cox-murder-beleave-vote-leave


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, December 31, 2018, 21:55:07
And to you mate....

I think a bit of a lull in the political debate on here was correct during the main Festive period, but can get into full swing after tomorrow's football, especially as March will come soon enough with all the anticipated Brexit fun. 

However I did have an early snigger, that HMG have taken out sizeable contracts with ferry operators from Denmark and France, to try and get essential supplies around the port bottlenecks in the event of no deal.  Further a UK company which has no boats, no experience of running ferries, and a port that needs dredging before being able to take boats of the necessary draught has got a nice contract.
Sir Reg, its good to see our government spending money on a UK company for once, boats or no boats. We normally contract everything to the French or Germans.As Bob Dylan once said the times they are a changing. Whilst things aren't perfect, with remaniacs sinking the UK for their own self interest, we do still have a chance of moving into the year 2019 not being dragged back to the failed politics of the early 1900's. A modern country in the modern world. Happy new year.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, January 1, 2019, 20:33:02
I've finished counting now. EVERY second for over two weeks: the number of those who voted leave in excess of those who voted remain. All 1,269,501.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, January 1, 2019, 20:34:55
I've finished counting now. EVERY second for over two weeks: the number of those who voted leave in excess of those who voted remain. All 1,269,501.
WTF are people just making shite up now? If so I've been counting and the vote for leave was 25million vs 4 milllion remain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, January 1, 2019, 20:38:11
Ah, I was talking about the referendum to leave the European Union. You are talking about 2017 General Election? I'll let someone out work how many days' worth of seconds that is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, January 1, 2019, 20:40:07
Ah, I was talking about the referendum to leave the European Union. You are talking about 2017 General Election? I'll let someone out work how many days' worth of seconds that is.
For real bro?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, January 4, 2019, 10:32:50
Makes Corbyn’s ‘Stupid Woman’ seem a bit mild. I’m sure the Donald has been called worse, though.

‘We're gonna go in there and we're going to impeach the mother***er," Rashida Tlaib was filmed telling ecstatic supporters, hours after she was sworn in to Congress for the first time.’


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, January 4, 2019, 16:02:03
Makes Corbyn’s ‘Stupid Woman’ seem a bit mild. I’m sure the Donald has been called worse, though.

‘We're gonna go in there and we're going to impeach the mother***er," Rashida Tlaib was filmed telling ecstatic supporters, hours after she was sworn in to Congress for the first time.’

The trouble is, he'll claim it's defamation of character. Of course he'll be correct. He doesn't like "fucking mothers" the claim is more towards him fucking underage girls.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, January 4, 2019, 17:03:27
Sir Reg, its good to see our government spending money on a UK company for once, boats or no boats. We normally contract everything to the French or Germans.As Bob Dylan once said the times they are a changing. Whilst things aren't perfect, with remaniacs sinking the UK for their own self interest, we do still have a chance of moving into the year 2019 not being dragged back to the failed politics of the early 1900's. A modern country in the modern world. Happy new year.

I suppose copying and pasting contract terms and pizza delivery are part of the "modern world" you embrace?

"Seaborne Freight (UK) Limited will make its best efforts to deal with third parties that are reputable and provide quality products and services.  However, Seaborne Freight (UK) Limited does not accept responsibility or liability for the quality of any goods served, delivered by or collected from any third parties. It is the responsibility of the customer to thoroughly check the supplied goods before agreeing to any meal/order."

After throwing away taxpayers' money on a British firm last year (Virgin Trains and the East Coast Line) our hapless ministers "Carry on" in 2019, unbowed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, January 15, 2019, 10:26:16
 :popcorn:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, January 15, 2019, 15:58:11
:popcorn:

Indeed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, January 15, 2019, 16:11:31
In what I expect will become a stream of football club posts, Borehamwood have come out against the deal.... https://www.borehamwoodfootballclub.co.uk/uncategorized/mps-do-your-duty/

 :hmmm: :hmmm:

Come on Lee tell us who to vote for.  :-[


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, January 15, 2019, 18:33:19
"A dangerous fantasy, which will make every problem it claim to solve, worse."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, January 15, 2019, 19:36:51
 May's deal down the crapper... unsurprisingly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, January 15, 2019, 19:41:13
The fun starts now.




Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, January 15, 2019, 20:25:35
Quote
May's deal down the crapper... unsurprisingly.
you'd think so with that level of majority loss, but she's like the terminator (a shit one) - keeps coming back for more.

The no confidence vote will fail tomorrow.

now what?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, January 15, 2019, 20:30:05
you'd think so with that level of majority loss, but she's like the terminator (a shit one) - keeps coming back for more.

The no confidence vote will fail tomorrow.

now what?

I would imagine it will be an attempt to try to see what can be got through Parliament, an extension of Art 50 will probably then be required, to allow time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, January 15, 2019, 20:37:19
if the EU grant it.

and they'd probably want something more concrete than 'we want to talk about it a bit more'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, January 15, 2019, 20:57:30
I would imagine it will be an attempt to try to see what can be got through Parliament, an extension of Art 50 will probably then be required, to allow time.
[/quote
Alternatively we could just leave in March. We've voted for leave over Daves deal, then the house of commons have voted against May's deal. There's no appetite for remain form the people or parliment. Lets just leave in March and save a shit load of money.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Private Fraser on Tuesday, January 15, 2019, 21:42:06
Sums it up quite nicely...

https://twitter.com/politicsjoe_uk/status/1085261972063600641?s=21


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, January 15, 2019, 21:49:48
Quote from: Private Fraser
Sums it up quite nicely...

https://twitter.com/politicsjoe_uk/status/1085261972063600641?s=21 (https://twitter.com/politicsjoe_uk/status/1085261972063600641?s=21)


genius!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, January 15, 2019, 22:11:26
you'd think so with that level of majority loss, but she's like the turdinator (a shit one) - keeps coming back up.

Rubbish puns but fixed it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 09:58:21
Ah well the merry go round begins again today, Leadsom has already told the Today programme that a)the government won't be delaying the UK's exit from the EU despite Parliament rejecting the PM's Brexit deal and b) that the PM will seek to build wider support for a deal that MPs can back but says there are no plans to hold talks with Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn.

So no cross party working, no change to the already dead deal and just more of the same pointless rubbish we have endured since December then really.

Its worth comparing the massive support Barnier is getting the the European Parliament https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/1085466731391389696 with the lonely manic figure we have clinging to power at whatever cost to the country.

27 countries united and yet even our governing cabinet cannot agree, to sort of echo a well known Mitchell and Webb sketch, do you sometimes think the problem might actually be us? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 10:23:20
This country is rarely united about anything


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 10:39:24
If there`s no deal we leave the Union don`t we?? What happens if we do revert to World Trade rules..great fear surronding this idea but I don`t get what the problem is..look forward to being shouted down by asking this question but no one really explains it when watching the news - which actually have given up on recently as it`s just so full of ego - the country`s interest has long gone by the way side...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 11:07:05
If there`s no deal we leave the Union don`t we?? What happens if we do revert to World Trade rules..great fear surronding this idea but I don`t get what the problem is..look forward to being shouted down by asking this question but no one really explains it when watching the news - which actually have given up on recently as it`s just so full of ego - the country`s interest has long gone by the way side...

WTO impose tariffs on imports and exports, so things likes car parts which cross several borders coming in and out of the UK from the EU, would be subject to several tariff interventions rather frictionless atm.

There would be non tariff barriers to trade with the EU, to do with standards on health and safety etc...as things stand as a member it's assumed these are sorted, as a non member 3rd country checks would need to be applied.

All of these things require an increase in bureaucracy and the need for greater border control, which is expensive and inefficient.

Much of the UK's trade is in services rather than widgets....WTO rules don't really apply here... financial services though don't like losing their passporting rights to the EU, hence why banks etc are moving some operations out of the UK.

In order to gain any benefits from the WTO, we'll need trade deals... within the EU there are already many in place with countries like Japan with others coming on stream, these will need to be renegotiated, so it means getting into bed with the likes of Xi and Trump from a position of weakness, whereas EU membership offers strength.

Although it may be possible to do some helpful trade deals, WTO will inevitably mean loss of EU trade... which as our neighbour and main trade partner is going to cause an economic hit, something like 8% of GDP is bandied about as a figure which is 2008 recession territory.... JRM estimates it might take 50 years for a rebalance and a chance to reap any benefits.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 11:33:11
In what I expect will become a stream of football club posts, Borehamwood have come out against the deal.... https://www.borehamwoodfootballclub.co.uk/uncategorized/mps-do-your-duty/

 :hmmm: :hmmm:

Come on Lee tell us who to vote for.  :-[
that would have to be the Swiss option.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chubbs on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 13:44:28
Fuck me, listening to May speak is painful. Its the little smile after every sentence as if shes saying to her self "i thought of that all myself, arent i clever"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chubbs on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 13:45:47
Can't help but think of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTuQOmgl_Z4


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 14:03:44
I noticed that the some on the tory benches were booing when the UN was mentioned within PMQ's, I assume the will of the people will be for us to leave earth next......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 14:14:02
I think that is the default disgusting behaviour of these braying hoorays when the UN report on the poverty in this country is mentioned.  All the tory party do during PMQ's is jeer whilst Maybot avoids answering questions.

Politics in this county really has reached its nadir.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 14:24:34
Fuck me, listening to May speak is painful. Its the little smile after every sentence as if shes saying to her self "i thought of that all myself, arent i clever"


Which is particularly sad as the whole public knows she is not bright enough to think of anything herself, unless it relates to stopping people who don't look or sound like her coming into the country.

Having seen her performance in PMQ's today I generally think we are doomed whilst she remains at the helm. No ideas, no flexibility, no strategy, no charisma, no openness to any ideas which are not hers, completely lacking in any sort of humanity even. I know that Thatcher had this reputation for being a bit of a terror but at least there there did seem to be a degree of personality behind the facade, I suspect May possibly has issues.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 14:32:03
I noticed that the some on the tory benches were booing when the UN was mentioned within PMQ's, I assume the will of the people will be for us to leave earth next......


Why do you think other countries are trying to grow stuff on the Moon. That's right, so they can say there you go Britain, eff off ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 14:38:40
Which is particularly sad as the whole public knows she is not bright enough to think of anything herself, unless it relates to stopping people who don't look or sound like her coming into the country.

Having seen her performance in PMQ's today I generally think we are doomed whilst she remains at the helm. No ideas, no flexibility, no strategy, no charisma, no openness to any ideas which are not hers, completely lacking in any sort of humanity even. I know that Thatcher had this reputation for being a bit of a terror but at least there there did seem to be a degree of personality behind the facade, I suspect May possibly has issues.

Completely agree. Its no deal under May - which would obviously be disastrous, or Parliament takes over.

This assumes she continues to say article 50 won't be extended, and that the EU don't suddenly shit themselves and offer concessions. And why would they?

Meanwhile Parliament is giving May a vote of confidence, even though they don't agree with it, to avoid the prospect of Corbyn taking chanrge.

Corbyn finds labour behind in the polls to a contemptuous government who has overseen the worst defeat in commons history, and who still don't have a coherent Brexit plan.

Meanwhile Corbyn won't show his hand on Brexit, and insists that a General Election is the way to go.

And we are just  72 days away now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 15:29:42

Meanwhile Corbyn won't show his hand on Brexit, and insists that a General Election is the way to go.

And we are just  72 days away now.

Sky Political guy (Lewis Goodall)  tweeted earlier...

Speaking to a Labour source, they said two things: (1) Labour will bring a confidence motion at least once more, when PM’s plan B is better known and (2) Corbyn is v unlikely ever to support 2nd ref in any circumstances. Another source said if he tried half Shadow cab would walk.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 15:52:11
Trying to delay article 50 or having a second vote just kicks the can long the road and i don't think either will necessarily resolve things. We're either in or we're out. I'd prefer no deal and leave but the next best option is remain. I'd rather walk away and then negotiate a future trade deal. Short terms problems but its clean. I'm sure, however, that we will remain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 15:58:07
Has Johnny Mercer, Conservative Plymouth Moor View been drinking or is he just as ignorant as his superior is deluded?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 16:02:22
IF Corbyn was genuinely interested in anything other than himself he would come out with an alternative instead of playing party politics...no wonder he is behind in the polls....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 16:07:51
Trying to delay article 50 or having a second vote just kicks the can long the road and i don't think either will necessarily resolve things. We're either in or we're out. I'd prefer no deal and leave but the next best option is remain. I'd rather walk away and then negotiate a future trade deal. Short terms problems but its clean. I'm sure, however, that we will remain.

As you know we stand on opposite sides of the divide but I think its clear all May has actually succeeded in doing is bringing the country together by pissing everyone on either side off entirely!

I still see no evidence at all that a no deal departure would only result in short term pain, Patrick Minford the brexiteers economist of choice has stated previously (although JRM squirmed for many minutes yesterday avoiding admitting this) to a Commons Select Committeee that a hard brexit would decimate the UK car industry, the example he actually used was it would be much as in the same way the coal industry went in the 80's (I apologise in advance if this triggers Reg).

Likewise from up here its been agriculture which is taxing minds. We have the problem that if we leave the European Union with no deal, on WTO terms, the EU’s tariffs on dairy products, lamb and various other items, which are quite high, immediately kick in. The problem with that, as we discovered when we had the foot-and-mouth epidemic, is that if we cannot export, prices crash. The only logical response from the farming industry, in order to maintain the value of the stock, is to slaughter large herds. There is a paper at the moment in Defra setting out a plan for slaughtering a third of all British sheep in order to maintain the integrity of the market. That is an inevitable consequence of a high tariff obstructing British exports.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 16:13:30
IF Corbyn was genuinely interested in anything other than himself he would come out with an alternative instead of playing party politics...no wonder he is behind in the polls....

JC is following the party policy decided at Conference... there is the alternative.  To put it succinctly, the policy is do nothing watch the Tories implode and try and force a GE, where the issues can then be put to the vote.

The do nothing bit, is because there is nothing can be done, not being the party of government. Brexit and negotiations are the government's, such as it is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 16:15:29
If I was Vince Cable, I'd now be making an open pitch for Labour MPs and voters to switch to the Lib Dems.  Both the Tories and Labour are paralysed.  The time will surely come when natural Lib Dem/Remain voters will have to swallow their pride and look past the Lib Dems' breaking of their Tuition Fees promise in 2010.

Labour being behind in the polls to the Tories at this moment is simply inexcusable, and a sign that something is badly wrong with the leadership.  There needs to be an opposition party in England & Wales that those opposed to the Tories' handling of Brexit can coalesce around - as there is in Scotland.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 16:19:26
IF Corbyn was genuinely interested in anything other than himself he would come out with an alternative instead of playing party politics...no wonder he is behind in the polls....

Corbyn will always be a protestor, so to speak. He will always back the underdog. I like him but his place isn't so much as a leader of the country but as a conscientious objector. Politics needs people like that, to ruffle feathers and alert others to their misgivings. What it doesn't need however, is someone who doesn't genuinely want to lead a nation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 16:25:00
Labour being behind in the polls to the Tories at this moment is simply inexcusable, and a sign that something is badly wrong with the leadership.  There needs to be an opposition party in England & Wales that those opposed to the Tories' handling of Brexit can coalesce around - as there is in Scotland.
It’s cos very few people want 1970s style policies. They are a niche party, essentially.

If an opposition can’t crack a Tory party in disarray . . .


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 16:25:21
If I was Vince Cable, I'd now be making an open pitch for Labour MPs and voters to switch to the Lib Dems.  Both the Tories and Labour are paralysed.  The time will surely come when natural Lib Dem/Remain voters will have to swallow their pride and look past the Lib Dems' breaking of their Tuition Fees promise in 2010.


A very sensible prospect. Many get hung up on the media hype surrounding "tuition fees", one thing they forget is when the LibDems were in cahoots with the Tories, they actually stalled a lot of Tory policies at the time. Cameron just had Clegg sewn up like a kipper, scapegoat, whatever...but that is what happens when you sell your soul to the Devil. Thus was Clegg's biggest mistake.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 16:28:23
JC is following the party policy decided at Conference...
Are you sure about that....

If I was Vince Cable, I'd now be making an open pitch for Labour MPs and voters to switch to the Lib Dems.  Both the Tories and Labour are paralysed.  The time will surely come when natural Lib Dem/Remain voters will have to swallow their pride and look past the Lib Dems' breaking of their Tuition Fees promise in 2010.


The LD's are still toxic to many, if I were VC I would be quietly talking to Caroline Lucas behind the scenes seeing if some manner of LD/Green tie up could be agreed, with her fronting the new entity. She is pretty much the only politician who has come out of this positively, if they could also get Lammy on board the more the merrier!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 16:28:24
If I was Vince Cable, I'd now be making an open pitch for Labour MPs and voters to switch to the Lib Dems.  Both the Tories and Labour are paralysed.  The time will surely come when natural Lib Dem/Remain voters will have to swallow their pride and look past the Lib Dems' breaking of their Tuition Fees promise in 2010.

Labour being behind in the polls to the Tories at this moment is simply inexcusable, and a sign that something is badly wrong with the leadership.  There needs to be an opposition party in England & Wales that those opposed to the Tories' handling of Brexit can coalesce around - as there is in Scotland.

If we get a GE as should happen, then Cable can put up the LibDems as the Remain party and see how it goes.

Labour is behind atm as the country has moved significantly to the right, whereas Labour has moved slightly to the left... however Labour was 20 points adrift in 2017 and didn't do too badly when campaigning started.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 16:31:39
I told my son that he'll probably be deployed in Northern Ireland if an agreement couldn't be reached.  This is now looking more likely.

Total clusterfuck.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 16:42:56
A Triple "L". No not a "Triple Lock" but Lucas, Lammy & Liberalism. I'd vote for Liberal Greens or Green Democrats. You may be on to something Horlock!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 17:01:08
Are you sure about that....

Yes....here's the Conference position that JC is pursuing...

Quote
Should Parliament vote down a Tory Brexit deal or the talks end in no-deal, Conference believes this would constitute a loss of confidence in the Government. In these circumstances, the best outcome for the country is an immediate General Election that can sweep the Tories from power.

If we cannot get a general election Labour must support all options remaining on the table, including campaigning for a public vote. If the Government is confident in negotiating a deal that working people, our economy and communities will benefit from they should not be afraid to put that deal to the public.

Of course the tactics required are for the leadership and PLP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 17:08:48
Why did Corbyn call for a no confidence vote knowing he wouldn`t stand a chance of winning...surely his idea of retaining the custom`s union and single market equals remaining in the Union...or is that possibly and still leave??


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 17:14:33
I have a feeling that he was pressured in to it by his MPs.  They know that they will not win, but once the No Confidence vote is out of the way and, with it, the slim prospect of a General Election, pressure then grows on Corbyn to get up off his arse and develop something that looks like a Brexit policy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 17:22:16
Why did Corbyn call for a no confidence vote knowing he wouldn`t stand a chance of winning...surely his idea of retaining the custom`s union and single market equals remaining in the Union...or is that possibly and still leave??

See the agreed Confernce position that I've posted up.... when May's deal fell yesterday, then it was incumbent on JC in line with Labour Party policy to call for a vote of no confidence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 17:41:16
I have a feeling that he was pressured in to it by his MPs.  They know that they will not win, but once the No Confidence vote is out of the way and, with it, the slim prospect of a General Election, pressure then grows on Corbyn to get up off his arse and develop something that looks like a Brexit policy.

This was the Brexit policy outlined in te manifesto at the 17 GE, I don't suppose if there is an election in 19 it will look a whole heap different.

 A GE would mean no need for a 3rd Ref

 https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/#first


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 17:50:20
This was the Brexit policy outlined in te manifesto at the 17 GE, I don't suppose if there is an election in 19 it will look a whole heap different.

 A GE would mean no need for a 3rd Ref

 https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/#first

If Maybot called a GE for April we'd be a free country leaving by March, without MP traitors being able to stop, the voted for prefered option. Alternatively she or any other con leader could withdraw the wip from Grieve, sourcherry etc types and stop them forcing votes and amendments for their own self interest.Options are available to ensure the people of the Uk's freedom from serfdom but will the cons use them?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 18:01:27
If Maybot called a GE for April we'd be a free country leaving by March, without MP traitors being able to stop, the voted for prefered option. Alternatively she or any other con leader could withdraw the wip from Grieve, sourcherry etc types and stop them forcing votes and amendments for their own self interest.Options are available to ensure the people of the Uk's freedom from serfdom but will the cons use them?

Serfdom has everything to do with the structures of British society and bugger all to do with the EU.  Still let's not let that get in the way.

If there is to be a GE, and it's unlikely as the right of the Tories and their DUP chums, will prop her up, not quite like El Cid riding at at the Moors, or even El Sid, coming back to STFC, then there will have to be a extension of Art 50 to fit it all in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 18:06:09
Why did Corbyn call for a no confidence vote knowing he wouldn`t stand a chance of winning...surely his idea of retaining the custom`s union and single market equals remaining in the Union...or is that possibly and still leave??

He'll likely lose this time but he can post the same motion again and again if subsequent deals don't cut the mustard.

He only needs a few hard brexiteers to no longer back her and we are off to the voting booth.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 18:13:01
He'll likely lose this time but he can post the same motion again and again if subsequent deals don't cut the mustard.

He only needs a few hard brexiteers to no longer back her and we are off to the voting booth.

To vote for who and what?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 18:28:20
for once red Ken I agree with you.

Another PM, same shit, no time.

Got to work together to find a solution. But May is too stubborn


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 19:11:32
306 Ayes
325 Noes

May clings on by a favour of 19. Hmmm confidence...I think Corbyn may table another bid of no confidence before long. 10 MPs difference.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 19:17:38
I dare say that May has her resignation filed away, I doubt she see out 2019 as PM.

It's also bonkers how the opposition haven't been able to comprehensively capitalise from any of this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 19:25:40
I dare say that May has her resignation filed away, I doubt she see out 2019 as PM.

It's also bonkers how the opposition haven't been able to comprehensively capitalise from any of this.

But they have.... much of the opposition to May is within her own party... those whom John Major called bastards, a small cabal of right wing loons, who along with certain media outlets with funds of dubious foreign provenenace, have achieved what is effectively a coup... no wonder JRM held a champagne reception last night.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 19:32:08
I dare say that May has her resignation filed away, I doubt she see out 2019 as PM.

It's also bonkers how the opposition haven't been able to comprehensively capitalise from any of this.
Yep, politics is in the gutter and although I'm traditionally Labour, they are unelectable even against the worst government I can remember. If there was an election, fuck knows where my vote would go.
There are so many politicians to hate at the moment - Soubry, Abbott, Johnson, Thornbury, Grieve and a shitload more.
In fact, I'm struggling to think of any I admire. If I was Labour, I'd get rid of Corbyn, sort out Momentum and put Benn in charge on a Remain ticket. Although he's the arch Remainer, unlike his dad, he could get Labour elected.As for the Tories, who the fuck isn't damaged?
Could be time for a new centrist party, taking moderates from both parties. Both parties are currently fucked. If there was an election, could see some big votes for the smaller parties.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 21:29:30
306 Ayes
325 Noes

May clings on by a favour of 19. Hmmm confidence...I think Corbyn may table another bid of no confidence before long. 10 MPs difference.

But isn't that just along party lines and the existing majority?. Didn't really expect anything else.

May offered to talk to party leaders but Jeremy put conditions on it. There will be another no confidence vote soon enough.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 21:50:27
But isn't that just along party lines and the existing majority?. Didn't really expect anything else.

Yep pretty much, Tories and DUP equal 327.

Has there ever been a time when both the Government and opposition have been equally so dreadful.

Any compentent opposition should be flying right now but Labour, more specifically Corbryn, are failing miserbably to seem like a feasible alternative


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, 21:53:07
If there was an election, fuck knows where my vote would go.   

Im a floating voter, spread my vote across the 3 parties in my lifetime. If there was an election I wouldn’t vote as none of them deserve my vote


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 00:44:58
Interesting talk of a "permanent" Customs Union.  Corbyn's been asking for a type of CU.  It would also likely get over the need for any NI backstop. 

EU-rophiles like me would be gutted at the confirmation of our retreat from being a leading EU member.  If ERG types were thereby to have what I believe to be their obnoxious ambitions circumscribed that would be a small consolation.

I am conscious that some of our most decent citizens whether they voted leave, remain or not at all are sick and tired of all the shitfighting.  I would be pleased for them at least if there was some Brexit closure.  Unfortunately, whatever happens, will surely only in reality be "the end of the beginning".




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 08:26:26
So in summary, there is no majority for a deal, there is no majority for no-deal, there is no majority for remain, and there is no majority for another referendum. There is no majority for a change in the leader of the governing party, and there is no majority for a no-confidence vote in the government. With all this in mind, let's get rid of the lot and let the EU run the show: HARD REMAIN.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 08:51:03
So in summary, there is no majority for a deal, there is no majority for no-deal, there is no majority for remain, and there is no majority for another referendum. There is no majority for a change in the leader of the governing party, and there is no majority for a no-confidence vote in the government. With all this in mind, let's get rid of the lot and let the EU run the show: HARD REMAIN.
There is a majority in parliament for remain. That's the problem when the country has voted leave. How do you reconcile the views of your constituents against your own personal views and what you believe is best for the country. That is the conundrum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 08:52:36
There is a majority in parliament for remain. That's the problem when the country has voted leave. How do you reconcile the views of your constituents against your own personal views and what you believe is best for the country. That is the conundrum.

The weird thing is that there kind of isn't even that - the question has splintered so far beyond "leave" and "remain" that we seem to genuinely have no majority for anything - no deal leave, deal leave, Norway/Canada style compromise, second referendum on deal, second referendum on leave/remain.

It's a pretty spectacular mess.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 08:59:47
And in the meantime, Cameron just gets to sit back and relax. He'll be alright no matter what happens. Danny Dyer was right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 09:45:36
And in the meantime, Cameron just gets to sit back and relax. He'll be alright no matter what happens. Danny Dyer was right.

What ever happens at the end of this process, I'm sure all sides can agree that we need to close Eton.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 09:49:37
What ever happens at the end of this process, I'm sure all sides can agree that we need to close Eton.

<insert Eaton mess quip here>


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 10:19:00
What ever happens at the end of this process, I'm sure all sides can agree that we need to close Eton.

The thing is when you look at the general denseness (inability to understand basic history or economics, unable to actually grasp the detail of things like the SM, CU etc) of the main protagonists that attended Eton it doesn't actually reflect very well on the standards of education delivered there.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 10:22:09
The thing is when you look at the general denseness (inability to understand basic history or economics, unable to actually grasp the detail of things like the SM, CU etc) of the main protagonists that attended Eton it doesn't actually reflect very well on the standards of education delivered there.....

At the very least, they need to introduce lessons in Irish history.  The flagrant disregard and/or ignorance of Irish issues & history - and British involvement in it - shown by Johnson and Rees-Mogg in particular is staggering.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 10:23:56
The thing is when you look at the general denseness (inability to understand basic history or economics, unable to actually grasp the detail of things like the SM, CU etc) of the main protagonists that attended Eton it doesn't actually reflect very well on the standards of education delivered there.....

I don't know. They probably excel in those subjects when it comes to enhancing their own personal wealth.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 10:41:04
I should add that the aspect of this farce that probably causes me most embarrassment of all is that it is the EU, and not the British government, that seems to have taken on the mantle of protecting & upholding the Good Friday Agreement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 10:57:34
I should add that the aspect of this farce that probably causes me most embarrassment of all is that it is the EU, and not the British government, that seems to have taken on the mantle of protecting & upholding the Good Friday Agreement.
It's a card they can play. They probably wouldn't give the remotest shit otherwise.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 11:02:29
Perhaps not.  It's UK government's casual disregard for peace in Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement - rather than the EU's concern for it - that bothers me the most.

The bottom line, though, is it's the EU - and not the UK - that is exerting its influence in a way most likely to maintain the peace.  That will not be forgotten in a hurry.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 11:11:03
Quite simply as a nation we have embarrassed ourselves. The EU have pissed all over us by standing their ground. Without being serious about a no deal, we had fuck all and the EU knew it. ll they had to do was nothing.
The withdrawal deal will pale into insignificance with the trade deal where the EU have an even stronger hand, if possible. We will be totally screwed and they've got fishing and Gibraltar lined up as well as God knows what else. Saltmayer has made his views pretty clear.
Because of this I'd like no deal, other than this remain. I don't think there is a middle ground that is favourable to us, plenty that are to the EU. 
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 11:23:34
Perhaps not.  It's UK government's casual disregard for peace in Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement - rather than the EU's concern for it - that bothers me the most.

The bottom line, though, is it's the EU - and not the UK - that is exerting its influence in a way most likely to maintain the peace.  That will not be forgotten in a hurry.


I think in terms of the EU its part of the wider support they are showing to Ireland as a member state, further laying waste to this idea being punted about that they are planning to throw Ireland under the bus to give us concessions to get a deal.

The total disregard shown to Scotland will also not be forgotten, its a small sample I know but the 3-4 Scots I know well were all anti independence until the last 6 months or so, now very keen to scarper at the first opportunity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 11:27:42
Quite simply as a nation we have embarrassed ourselves. The EU have pissed all over us by standing their ground. Without being serious about a no deal, we had fuck all and the EU knew it. ll they had to do was nothing.
The withdrawal deal will pale into insignificance with the trade deal where the EU have an even stronger hand, if possible. We will be totally screwed and they've got fishing and Gibraltar lined up as well as God knows what else. Saltmayer has made his views pretty clear.
Because of this I'd like no deal, other than this remain. I don't think there is a middle ground that is favourable to us, plenty that are to the EU. 
 

Pretty much summed up why I chose to vote remain, I have no great love for the EU as a mechanism but I couldn't really identify anywhere where it had a particularly negative effect on my life, plenty of areas where it caused a positive to me and others and I could not see any benefits in leaving that would offset the inevitable economic and social shitstorm it would unleash.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 11:31:22
Pretty much summed up why I chose to vote remain, I have no great love for the EU as a mechanism but I couldn't really identify anywhere where it had a particularly negative effect on my life, plenty of areas where it caused a positive to me and others and I could not see any benefits in leaving that would offset the inevitable economic and social shitstorm it would unleash.
Same as me for pretty much exactly the same reasons.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 11:32:10
Realistically, how long do people think leaving the EU 'properly' would take?

Its become clear that 2.5 years is not nearly enough to work these things out. With hindsight I am sure Cameron would have done things differently but what time frame is sensible? 5 years,7 years, 10?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 11:38:20
Quite simply as a nation we have embarrassed ourselves. The EU have pissed all over us by standing their ground. Without being serious about a no deal, we had fuck all and the EU knew it. ll they had to do was nothing.
The withdrawal deal will pale into insignificance with the trade deal where the EU have an even stronger hand, if possible. We will be totally screwed and they've got fishing and Gibraltar lined up as well as God knows what else. Saltmayer has made his views pretty clear.
Because of this I'd like no deal, other than this remain. I don't think there is a middle ground that is favourable to us, plenty that are to the EU. 

Agree with most of that...but surely the principle reason that the EU has run rings around the UK in the 'negotiations' is not that they have been underhand or beastly in any way.  It's just that they're 10 times bigger than we are.  The terms of any negotiation are always going to be set by the larger party to those negotiations.

The 'they need us more than we need them' argument was always nonsense, and I'm surprised that it has not debunked/dismissed far sooner.  But the evidence is there now for all to see.  The EU was always going to control this process.  And what's more -  even if we do leave, the 90% of the EU as it currently exists that will then sit on our doorstep will continue to exert a gravitational pull from which the UK will never really escape.  Brexit is all about giving up control.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 12:05:46
Realistically, how long do people think leaving the EU 'properly' would take?

To regain full independence and sovereignty with our own laws, regulations and trade agreements?

Decades.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 12:18:14
Agree with most of that...but surely the principle reason that the EU has run rings around the UK in the 'negotiations' is not that they have been underhand or beastly in any way.  It's just that they're 10 times bigger than we are.  The terms of any negotiation are always going to be set by the larger party to those negotiations.

The 'they need us more than we need them' argument was always nonsense, and I'm surprised that it has not debunked/dismissed far sooner.  But the evidence is there now for all to see.  The EU was always going to control this process.  And what's more -  even if we do leave, the 90% of the EU as it currently exists that will then sit on our doorstep will continue to exert a gravitational pull from which the UK will never really escape.  Brexit is all about giving up control.
Even as an ardent leaver, the "they need us more case" was bollocks as was the £350m and an easy trade deal. It was never going to be easy and yes it will try and a long while to be free as their tentacles are everywhere but it will get worse so take the pain now and get cracking.
There is no doubt in my mind we're headed for a united states of Europe with more countries and total political and financial integration.
Just as there are many flavours of leave, there are of remain. Many people say that those who voted leave didn't vote for no deal, there are those who voted remain did not vote for USE. I don't think there's much middle ground that is mutually beneficial. It's all in the EU's favour. If we want to leave, then fucking leave and let's stop clinging to their legs. If we're not prepared to do that then let's go for it and try and increase our influence within the EU rather than be the naughty boy at the back of the room.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 12:23:30
To regain full independence and sovereignty with our own laws, regulations and trade agreements?

Decades.

It may well take decades but we need to leave in March and not put off regaining our independence. Otherwise the UK will be trapped in never ending membership of an organisation the people don't want to belong. The stance of the eu has proved how much they dislike the UK and only want its money. We know so much more 2 years on about their mindset and so we need to leave first and cut off the money supply. Many remainers and young voters can see the eu ponzi scheme for what it is, they don't want a deal or a second vote, the majority want out. The only sad part is those in Westminster  who make money from the eu don't want to lose that cash flow and are going to spunk away democracy for self interest. The vote to leave was by the people and for the people, its time to be free.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 12:39:36
 Here's a small example of the reasons for the right wing leave campaign....

 https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/17362773.oak-furnitureland-parent-company-due-in-court-over-alleged-health-and-safety-breaches/?ref=mr&lp=8

 The 2002 legislation referred to that OFL have allegedly come up short on is in response to an EU directive.  There's plenty of examples in our history where workers are considered expendable, and any deaths etc, while unfortunate often cannot be helped, and there will be others willing to do the work from the pool of available labour.

 Such H and S laws are what the right consider as "red tape" get in the way of profit and we have to compete with those less sniffy about such matters.

So for example the Qataris for the next WC, not too bothered by the deaths of construction workers.... it's estimated that if a minutes silence was held for each dead worker the first 44 games would be played in silence.

The Brexiteers hope to be able to withdraw from such legislation, in order to give UK an edge, in the desire for Liam Fox's aim of England becoming like Singapore.

Of course it can be argued which if you like is the Lexit position, that we don't need the EU to introduce such legislation on the environment  H and S worker's rights etc,  a Labour government can do that, it's just that in the case of things like  the so called Swindon disease mesothelioma.... it never happened.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 12:39:41
There is no doubt in my mind we're headed for a united states of Europe with more countries and total political and financial integration.


Without the support of all members that is never going to happen, as the Walloons proved with the trade deal they essentially killed in the water, member states have the power to veto just about everything if their governments don't want it to proceed, see also the nonsense about Turkey joining (which was actually being driven mainly by the UK), our government has chosen not to and then rather than take them to task we have chosen to take our ball home in a huff, whilst still voting for same political leaders.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 12:47:32

The Brexiteers hope to be able to withdraw from such legislation, in order to give UK an edge, in the desire for Liam Fox's aim of England becoming like Singapore.


Ah Singapore, where it only started to improve once it gained independence from the British, 39% of its population are foreign nationals and the majority of housing is social housing. Sure Brexiters will love that!

If the EU is such a basket case that we will apparently be better out of for theb good of 'the people' how does that tie in with the 2018 poverty rates within the EU....

UK: 23.2%
Spain: 22.3%
Greece: 21.2%
Italy: 20.6%
Portugal: 19.0%
Poland: 17.3%
Ireland: 16.6%
Germany: 16.5%
Sweden: 16.2%
Belgium: 15.5%
France: 13.6%
Norway: 12.3%
Denmark: 11.9%
Finland: 11.7%


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 12:57:37
Without the support of all members that is never going to happen, as the Walloons proved with the trade deal they essentially killed in the water, member states have the power to veto just about everything if their governments don't want it to proceed, see also the nonsense about Turkey joining (which was actually being driven mainly by the UK), our government has chosen not to and then rather than take them to task we have chosen to take our ball home in a huff, whilst still voting for same political leaders.

The enlargement of the EU particularly eastwards was driven by the UK...the aim to increase the pool of available labour prepared to work for lower wages and longer hours.

With Brexit as Farage pointed out that labour will now come more from the sub continent.... particularly India, who don't need a trade deal without some sort of visa relaxation.

A regards greater integration, UK has always been semi detached from the EU project and there was much talk of a 2 division EU, a core who may wish for greater integration in Div 1 and a more semi detached group who might be considered Div 2.

The Labour 2015 manifesto pledge was that any new "constitutional" EU matters like that would be put to referendum


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 12:57:44
Island mentality coupled with the constant glorification of having given the French, Germans, Spanish et al what for in conflicts, in some cases dating back hundreds of years.

If the UK was still attached to the mainland then there wouldn't be problem with 'Europe'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 13:05:36
Realistically, how long do people think leaving the EU 'properly' would take?

Its become clear that 2.5 years is not nearly enough to work these things out. With hindsight I am sure Cameron would have done things differently but what time frame is sensible? 5 years,7 years, 10?

Under this government or continuing elements of it;

Never.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 13:06:49
Ah Singapore, where it only started to improve once it gained independence from the British, 39% of its population are foreign nationals and the majority of housing is social housing. Sure Brexiters will love that!

The Brexiteers like the idea of Singapore's 16% spend of GDP on government business, due to low taxation.

Further, they like the draconian laws like the death penalty for drug dealing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 13:15:59
Island mentality coupled with the constant glorification of having given the French, Germans, Spanish et al what for in conflicts, in some cases dating back hundreds of years.

If the UK was still attached to the mainland then there wouldn't be problem with 'Europe'.

I get your historical point totally but there are also many other European Islands that do not have a problem with 'Europe', one being our nearest neighbour, Ireland. Do you think it's because of the historical element that there is this deep rooted, subconscious (for some) belief that we (the UK - further England) think we are much better than other nations?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 13:26:01
Small sample size (1,000), but latest YouGov poll has support for Leave @ 44%, and Remain @ 56%.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 13:28:17
I get your historical point totally but there are also many other European Islands that do not have a problem with 'Europe', one being our nearest neighbour, Ireland. Do you think it's because of the historical element that there is this deep rooted, subconscious (for some) belief that we (the UK - further England) think we are much better than other nations?
Look, they speak funny and eat strange food. That’s all it is!

Intrinsically, we don’t trust ‘em! My God, they don’t even play cricket - the cloggies do a bit - but you get my drift.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 13:36:52
Small sample size (1,000), but latest YouGov poll has support for Leave @ 44%, and Remain @ 56%.
I think we're all intelligent enough to ignore the polls given how fucking useless they have been the last few times they have been used for politics.
I agree with wobbly Bob about the island mentality but embrace it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 13:40:32
I get your historical point totally but there are also many other European Islands that do not have a problem with 'Europe', one being our nearest neighbour, Ireland. Do you think it's because of the historical element that there is this deep rooted, subconscious (for some) belief that we (the UK - further England) think we are much better than other nations?

It's certainly an attitude ingrained in 'The Establishment'.
Just have a look at all of the verses of the National Anthem and Rule Britannia for starters.

And what Audrey said.  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 13:58:42
It's certainly an attitude ingrained in 'The Establishment'.
Just have a look at all of the verses of the National Anthem and Rule Britannia for starters.

And what Audrey said.  :)

One only has to look at the various negotiation techniques promoted by many to see that many of our problems hark back to our own inflated opinion of ourselves, possibly because many do not seem to be able to move forward from the early 70's.

We used to have an empire, we don't anymore, we used to be a world power, not anymore, many other countries have readjusted to a changing world sadly we seem unable and have become a laughing stock on the back of it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 14:01:10
Yeah, but spitfires!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 14:15:06
possibly because many do not seem to be able to move forward from the early 70's.

You Sir sell the nation short.  They had a guy on the radio this morning harping back to 1945. Not sure if he was actually old enough to remember it, but that didn't deter him.

Yeah, but spitfires!

Exactly!
---------------------
In any case the 70s/80s were shit if you were poor.

We had to rent a TV, one that you had to put 50ps in to work that had an uncanny knack of knowing when the best bit was on and shit itself off. Peak timing too, when you had to knock the neighbors door because you had to change a pound note.

Who wants to go back to that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 14:20:01
I think we're all intelligent enough to ignore the polls given how fucking useless they have been the last few times they have been used for politics.

That's true.  But if this picture sticks, it becomes increasingly difficult/awkward for May to dig her heels in and hide behind the 'will of the people' shield she's currently using to fend off any suggestions that she might now need to deviate from her Plan A.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 14:20:39
Yeah, but spitfires!

I know your tongue is placed firmly in your cheek, but for many others it sadly isn't. Take much being made by certain brexiteers that Dunkirk is some sort of steer of Britishness and illustrates that we will overcome and survive Brexit, setting aside the fact that it was 80 odd years ago, it was also the result of a pretty crushing defeat, yet because it has become, over time, some manner of sign of how great we are. the truth of history has really been lost. Like the  oft shouted argument that we won the war and Europe owes us for it, when actually it was a coalition of 15+ nations that actually won the war.

We are a funny old lot.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 14:28:18
You Sir sell the nation short.  They had a guy on the radio this morning harping back to 1945. Not sure if he was actually old enough to remember it, but that didn't deter him.


That's another bug bear of min, people in their 60's and 70's who babble on about the blitz spirit and war like they were there with feck all idea what it was really like. My old man is 82 this year and lived through the war in Swindon, being only 8 when it finished. He cannot remember very much of it, but he does remember. it was shit, not enough food, bombs dropping and families ripped apart (he didn't even meet his father till he was 8 or 9 as my grand dad was stationed in Burma/India got malaria and thus never came back until the war ended.


In any case the 70s/80s were shit if you were poor.

We had to rent a TV, one that you had to put 50ps in to work that had an uncanny knack of knowing when the best bit was on and shit itself off. Peak timing too, when you had to knock the neighbors door because you had to change a pound note.

Who wants to go back to that.

Yeah but we had an empire and ruled the waves.... we had a rented telly but not one you put cash in, just one with a control on a wire. We did have a 50p meter though, great thing to have in an isolated village, always used to run out on a Sunday night where nowhere was open to get any change even in Witney!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 14:33:02
Small sample size (1,000), but latest YouGov poll has support for Leave @ 44%, and Remain @ 56%.

Only if you exclude the don't knows and people who say they wouldn't vote. Survation have it at 51/49 in favour of remain. The country is still split down the middle.

Survation results here - https://www.survation.com/new-survation-polling-12-01-19/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 14:39:56
Not convinced about the timing but they are probably right that its time for Corbyn to piss or get off the pot....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/17/lib-dems-refuse-to-support-future-labour-no-confidence-votes


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 14:40:10
Only if you exclude the don't knows and people who say they wouldn't vote. Survation have it at 51/49 in favour of remain. The country is still split down the middle.

Survation results here - https://www.survation.com/new-survation-polling-12-01-19/

Bit left field, this, I know, but maybe some sort of compromise might be the way forward?  Someone should tell Theresa.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 14:40:36
In any case the 70s/80s were shit if you were poor.

We had to rent a TV, one that you had to put 50ps in to work that had an uncanny knack of knowing when the best bit was on and shit itself off. Peak timing too, when you had to knock the neighbors door because you had to change a pound note.

Who wants to go back to that.

we were in the eu during the 70's & 80's
The trouble is the extreme left can't see anything but how good the eu is, because they have even bigger government sucking cash from their pockets.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 14:57:52
Bit left field, this, I know, but maybe some sort of compromise might be the way forward?  Someone should tell Theresa.

Don't matter, the big shift is this Saturday apparently  :D :hmmm: :hmmm:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/17/saturday-uk-remain-parliament-force-second-referendum


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 14:59:09
In any case the 70s/80s were shit if you were poor.

We had to rent a TV, one that you had to put 50ps in to work that had an uncanny knack of knowing when the best bit was on and shit itself off. Peak timing too, when you had to knock the neighbors door because you had to change a pound note.

Who wants to go back to that.

we were in the eu during the 70's & 80's
The trouble is the extreme left can't see anything but how good the eu is, because they have even bigger government sucking cash from their pockets.

The trouble is the extreme right cannot use the quote tool or write coherently?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 15:12:24
The trouble is the extreme right cannot use the quote tool or write coherently?

That's because he's mislaid his WordPerfect keyboard template.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 15:16:21
That's because he's mislaid his WordPerfect keyboard template.

:D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 15:30:34
In any case the 70s/80s were shit if you were poor.

Any time is shit if you are poor... but what was wrong with renting a TV, if it stopped working you just got a new one.

I remember the 70's and 80's as a golden age.... such creativity springing out of unpromising working class environments, just think music and football.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 15:32:32
it was tongue in cheek reg. though having a TV that ran on 50p red a PITA


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 15:53:58
it was tongue in cheek reg. though having a TV that ran on 50p red a PITA

I see. The main problem with TV, was seen as somewhat limited choice, however it did mean that some absolute gold was produced amongst the dross.   

Now I've got loads of channels, which I  don't actually want, but was told by the provider that I couldn't have my desired choice of only 5 channels, as had always been the case.

OK times change but there is nothing but bilge,  having said that the i-player is a decent innovation, especially when they stick up classics like Kenneth Clarke's Civilisation and the great Ian Nairn's Across Britain


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 17:36:55
The trouble is the extreme right cannot use the quote tool or write coherently?

That is a statement not a question.  

Just in case you ever feel the urge to write coherently......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 17:39:12
Look, they speak funny and eat strange food. That’s all it is!

Intrinsically, we don’t trust ‘em! My God, they don’t even play cricket - the cloggies do a bit - but you get my drift.


That's just not cricket  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 17:45:37
It's certainly an attitude ingrained in 'The Establishment'.
Just have a look at all of the verses of the National Anthem and Rule Britannia for starters.

And what Audrey said.  :)

I'm pretty certain the rest of Europe (as well as all EU Member States), actually feel embarrassingly sorry for the UK. The UK is the equivalent of Ronald McDonald Trump, whereby the line of thinking is we're this all important entity and everyone else is going "please just take a look in the mirror and realise you aren't perfect." The only difference is we most definitely do not have "...many, many fries."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 17:52:18
You Sir sell the nation short.  They had a guy on the radio this morning harping back to 1945. Not sure if he was actually old enough to remember it, but that didn't deter him.

Exactly!
---------------------
In any case the 70s/80s were shit if you were poor.

We had to rent a TV, one that you had to put 50ps in to work that had an uncanny knack of knowing when the best bit was on and shit itself off. Peak timing too, when you had to knock the neighbors door because you had to change a pound note.

Who wants to go back to that.

Yeah my parents had the "50p TV" and the old dial electric meter that consumed 50s like the Cookie Monster. Think they were still in when I was born. Saying that our main TV was black & white  "grain effect" one, up until about 1993.

Please check in with Exiled Bob though because I believe he sold my Dad the TV, so will confirm for certain.*

*Don't, I'm being a dick.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 18:03:15
The inaction and uncertainty has now become more damaging than even a no-deal Brexit.  We should leave and simply work the problem through.  It would be painful in the short term but it would end.  Continuing the current dithering in search of the non-existent 'good' solution will be equally painful but with no end.

I think that if a second referendum was held then the Remain vote would probably prevail.  Clearly there will be some who will switch to 'remain' but what isn't so obvious is whether an equally significant volume of original 'remain' voters would also switch, either on a point of principle or because they believe that we have gone too far down the road to have any credibility in staying.

I think I would switch to 'leave' although voting with Boris and JR-M would be a strain.

Difficult to see how a reversal of the original result would be anything other than hugely divisive for years to come.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 18:18:43
The trouble is the extreme left can't see anything but how good the eu is, because they have even bigger government sucking cash from their pockets.

Have you been following the Brexit debate at all? The Corbynistas, trots and the far left are even more rabidly anti-EU than the right. They see the EU as a capitalist conspiracy.

As for the EU government sucking cash from your pocket, check out your tax return some time. The tiny sliver at the top of the pie chart called UK Contribution to the EU Budget.

It costs me 59p per week.
(https://secure.i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02871/taxtable1_2871685b.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 18:26:24
If there is a second vote presumably the pissed off leavers wouldn`t bother vote plus quite a few other disillusioned folk so if the turnout wasn`t pretty much the same as the original it would be a meaningless result...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 18:36:50
A second referendum would seriously disadvantage the leave vote as it will be difficult for people to disaggregate a leave decision with the total fucking omnishambles clusterfuck mess made of it. The two become one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 18:48:46
In any case the 70s/80s were shit if you were poor.

We had to rent a TV, one that you had to put 50ps in to work that had an uncanny knack of knowing when the best bit was on and shit itself off. Peak timing too, when you had to knock the neighbors door because you had to change a pound note.

Who wants to go back to that.

we were in the eu during the 70's & 80's
The trouble is the extreme left can't see anything but how good the eu is, because they have even bigger government sucking cash from their pockets.
Nice anecdote.  I won't try and match you there.

If you are interested in facts though, what do you think of this:

Growth in GDP per head for period of UKs EU membership from joining up to the referendum:

1.  The UK  :clap:
2   Germany 
3   The USA  :suicide:

It might not quite fit in with what your newspaper of choice would have you believe.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 18:49:21
A second referendum would seriously disadvantage the leave vote as it will be difficult for people to disaggregate a leave decision with the total fucking omnishambles clusterfuck mess made of it. The two become one.

But it was always going to be an omnishables clusterfuck because what was promised was always going to be undeliverable, what with the Good Friday Agreement and the complexity of relationships which had to be unpicked.
I have a (very slight) sympathy for May in that she had to deliver a unicorn and came up the best she could, a donkey with an ice cream cone stuck to its head.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 19:11:00
Ahem!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 19:23:37
A second referendum would seriously disadvantage the leave vote as it will be difficult for people to disaggregate a leave decision with the total fucking omnishambles clusterfuck mess made of it. The two become one.

It's an interesting point - but why should they be disaggregated?  Where is the version of Brexit that isn't a complete balls up?  Surely it would have emerged by now if it existed?

As I alluded to earlier, even if we do leave, we'll never really leave because, one way or another, the gravitational pull of our much bigger, more influential closest neighbour will fix the UK in its orbit.  That's the realpolitik.  Hunting around for a version of Brexit where this doesn't happen is utterly futile.  A 'clean' Brexit is impossible in the real world.  The only scenario in which Brexit would make sense, to my mind, is if the EU really does start to implode...as many have been predicting for some time now (without it happening).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 19:55:32
A clean brexit is not impossible and we haven't even tried it. It was the only hand we had and we didn't okay it. Yes, do a trade deal and form alliances where mutually beneficial once we've made a clean break. This is what I and most other leavers i know had voted for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 19:59:52
But it was always going to be an omnishables clusterfuck because what was promised was always going to be undeliverable, what with the Good Friday Agreement and the complexity of relationships which had to be unpicked.
I have a (very slight) sympathy for May in that she had to deliver a unicorn and came up the best she could, a donkey with an ice cream cone stuck to its head.

I'll eat my ice cream any way I like, and the EU can't stop me (after March 29).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 20:11:01
I'll eat my ice cream any way I like, and the EU can't stop me (after March 29).

You can anyway, the Chinese hold the claim of Ice Cream. Yet the Italians may have a say in it so in that case Donkey, you can't have your cream and eat it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 20:50:01
You can anyway, the Chinese hold the claim of Ice Cream. Yet the Italians may have a say in it so in that case Donkey, you can't have your cream and eat it!

Then I don't want it.  Ice Cream Exit, now!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, January 17, 2019, 21:13:11
Then I don't want it.  Ice Cream Exit, now!

Gelato means gelato!

Creamxit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 18, 2019, 08:44:23
The only scenario in which Brexit would make sense, to my mind, is if the EU really does start to implode...as many have been predicting for some time now (without it happening).

Yeah and at that stage as we are not as aligned as the rest of the EU membership, and thus by extension will not be as immediately affected by the implosion we move to depart, whilst also starting to cherry pick off the business and trade opportunities from within, much as the EU are doing to us now.

We at best are playing a very short game here for what benefit, no one has still managed to come up with a real tangible benefit for leaving?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, January 18, 2019, 11:53:42
Looks like my mate farage will be back soon with a new party now that ukip are embracing Mr yaxley Lennon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, January 18, 2019, 13:10:31
Have you been following the Brexit debate at all? The Corbynistas, trots and the far left are even more rabidly anti-EU than the right. They see the EU as a capitalist conspiracy.
When you're as far to the right as SRK is, Vince Cable looks like the extreme left


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, January 18, 2019, 13:11:33
Looks like my mate farage will be back soon with a new party now that ukip are embracing Mr yaxley Lennon.
Farage and Banks were always going to launch a new far right populist party (UKIP 2.0) anyway, the Batten/Yaxley Lennon alliance is just helping them find an excuse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 18, 2019, 14:41:05
Interesting interpretation from the EU, essentially they could agree to extend A50 without us asking, for our own safety... https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1085937231540436993


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, January 18, 2019, 14:45:30
Interesting interpretation from the EU, essentially they could agree to extend A50 without us asking, for our own safety... https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1085937231540436993
They can extend article 50 then decide we can't leave, whilst they double or treble or payments if they want.
Its called eu democracy and there's nothing you can do about it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, January 18, 2019, 14:54:07
Bravo!

http://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1086264773149380608


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: bathford on Friday, January 18, 2019, 14:58:41
A clean brexit is not impossible and we haven't even tried it. It was the only hand we had and we didn't okay it. Yes, do a trade deal and form alliances where mutually beneficial once we've made a clean break. This is what I and most other leavers i know had voted for.

Hurray!! A sensible comment!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, January 18, 2019, 15:03:05
TBf a clear brexit isn’t impossible and in terms of implementation is probably the easiest

Implementing it though entirely fucks this country over - which is why many (including me) are so ducking pissed off about it, and find it hard to be civil - that our entire future is being put at risk in such a reckless way


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, January 18, 2019, 15:14:59
^^^^^ this ^^^^^^^

"yeah but 37bn"... fucktards, that's peanuts compared to the amount the economy will lose


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, January 18, 2019, 15:24:08
And the charge for it is ,by and large, being led by a generation who have lived and (relatively) prospered under the stable situation we were in - and now they’re throwing that all away as they retire/die for my generation to pick up the pieces and figure it out



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, January 18, 2019, 15:43:11
And the charge for it is ,by and large, being led by a generation who have lived and (relatively) prospered under the stable situation we were in - and now they’re throwing that all away as they retire/die for my generation to pick up the pieces and figure it out


A generation who will have children and grandchildren. The majority of this generation will be making a decision for the good of their children etc. A generation with varied and long life experiences who are genuinely voting for what they believe is best for their country. A generation who were happy with a common trade area but not a United States of Europe. A generation who believe the integration has been achieved by stealth.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, January 18, 2019, 15:51:57
A generation who have reaped the benefits of the last 30 years of political positioning and are now ripping it away


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, January 18, 2019, 15:54:44
A generation who are happy to put any risk on the future because they’re already set


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, January 18, 2019, 16:09:21
A generation who will have children and grandchildren. The majority of this generation will be making a decision for the good of their children etc. A generation with varied and long life experiences who are genuinely voting for what they believe is best for their country. A generation who were happy with a common trade area but not a United States of Europe. A generation who believe the integration has been achieved by stealth.

TBF mate, as an old un, I reckon that's bollox.... anybody who based their vote on wanting a better future for their kids,  would not rationally have voted for Brexit.  Voted for a change in the way domestic policies are sorted for sure, as here is the reason for the problems in our society.

All you need to do is look back at the opening pages of this thread, where Hertab posits the question what is the most important issue atm, (it's more or less 5 years old.)

You get a range of replies, mine was climate change, others political apathy, corrrpt and inept career politicians, the state of the Union, the need for PR etc.

You're the first to flag up UKIP support... and the EU

Quote
UKIP - yes. I don't mind being called a xenophobe, nutter or whatever. I'm not actually that bothered about immigration, that's a by product. I don't want to be a member of such a corrupt and self serving institution

But it seems like your out vote is based more on not finding favour with the EU as an organisation, rather thinking of the kids.  




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, January 18, 2019, 16:42:37
The sad thing is that if there is to be a USE, we'll be dancing to its beat in the future whether we're technically in it or not.  We'll never be able to turn our backs on the 500 million people on our doorstep.  That's what I meant when I said earlier that a 'clean' Brexit is a fantasy.  You can cut all the technical ties you like, but in an increasingly connected world we will end up having to mirror the EU in all manner of different ways.

I keep thinking of King Canute trying to keep the waves back.  Not a bad metaphor for the Brexit mindset that thinks we'll be able to operate independently of the much larger bloc on our doorstep in future.  Either way, I'm fairly sure that our kids & grandchildren will see right through it soon enough and undo the damage.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, January 18, 2019, 16:44:58
I genuinely voted leave on the basis it will be better for my kids and the country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, January 18, 2019, 16:48:28
I genuinely voted leave on the basis it will be better for my kids and the country.

I disagree with you about the best way forward, but I don't doubt your sincerity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, January 18, 2019, 17:39:18
The sad thing is that if there is to be a USE, we'll be dancing to its beat in the future whether we're technically in it or not.  We'll never be able to turn our backs on the 500 million people on our doorstep.  That's what I meant when I said earlier that a 'clean' Brexit is a fantasy.  You can cut all the technical ties you like, but in an increasingly connected world we will end up having to mirror the EU in all manner of different ways.

I keep thinking of King Canute trying to keep the waves back.  Not a bad metaphor for the Brexit mindset that thinks we'll be able to operate independently of the much larger bloc on our doorstep in future.  Either way, I'm fairly sure that our kids & grandchildren will see right through it soon enough and undo the damage.

The sad thing is that if there is to be a USE, ‘we'll be dancing to its beat’ in the future whether we're technically in it or not.  ‘We'll never be able to turn our backs on the 500 million people on our doorstep.’

Firstly why? Secondly in what context?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Friday, January 18, 2019, 18:31:53
I genuinely voted leave on the basis it will be better for my kids and the country.

Not doubting the sincerity of your decision, but how is taking away your children's rights to live, love and work across the EU going to benefit them in the future?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, January 18, 2019, 18:36:49
Not doubting the sincerity of your decision, but how is taking away your children's rights to live, love and work across the EU going to benefit them in the future?

And before the Maastricht & Rome treaties? Didn’t people work, live, study and love across a divided Europe? Fucking numpty.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, January 18, 2019, 19:02:08
Not doubting the sincerity of your decision, but how is taking away your children's rights to live, love and work across the EU going to benefit them in the future?
I'm not. Just because they may not have an automatic right does not mean they can't.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, January 18, 2019, 19:18:02
It makes it a less obvious, easy and welcoming proposition - don’t be obtuse and deny that


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, January 18, 2019, 19:19:22
Yeah, because pre 1973 nobody from the UK went to live, work or travel in mainland Europe from the UK.  ::)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, January 18, 2019, 19:22:48
It makes it a less obvious, easy and welcoming proposition - don’t be obtuse and deny that

Why? Go on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, January 18, 2019, 19:22:51
And then they spent 48 years being able to do so with absolute ease before we went back to putting rules on where people can go


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, January 18, 2019, 19:24:50
Not to mention this whole self inflicted fuck fest has throw up the citizenship rights of the 1.3 million British citizens living in the eu right now

But it’s alright, they’re abroad aren’t they - fuck ‘em. We know best


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, January 18, 2019, 19:25:50
It makes it a less obvious, easy and welcoming proposition - don’t be obtuse and deny that
I'm not being obtuse but being out of the EU, how does that make Europe less welcoming or obvious? Easy, possibly.
We're not going to stop all interaction with Europe. The relationship will be different but it can still be incredibly friendly and mutually beneficial.
I don't hate Europe, I hate the EU. I hope we leave and that both us, the EU and Europe are all incredibly successful. They are not mutually exclusive.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, January 18, 2019, 19:39:42
And then they spent 48 years being able to do so with absolute ease before we went back to putting rules on where people can go

You still had to use a passport when travelling to Spain from the UK for example during our membership of the EU, what's different?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, January 18, 2019, 19:41:14
Not to mention this whole self inflicted fuck fest has throw up the citizenship rights of the 1.3 million British citizens living in the eu right now

But it’s alright, they’re abroad aren’t they - fuck ‘em. We know best

Has it done the same for the EU nationals here?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, January 18, 2019, 19:52:15
Not to mention this whole self inflicted fuck fest has throw up the citizenship rights of the 1.3 million British citizens living in the eu right now

But it’s alright, they’re abroad aren’t they - fuck ‘em. We know best
I've said before, the first thing both parties should have done is guarantee that those who had moved to and from GB and EU at the time of the vote should have their rights to live in those countries. Its up to the individuals themselves if they want citizenship but it shouldn't be denied them.
That should have been separate to any negotiations. Theses people who had built their lives elsewhere should not be used as pawns. Forget anything else, its just ethical and moral to do this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, January 18, 2019, 20:34:11
You still had to use a passport when travelling to Spain from the UK for example during our membership of the EU, what's different?

Visas and stricter work restrictions are the ones that spring to mind


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, January 18, 2019, 20:55:57
Dave, I feel ya, but I think you're focusing on the wrong things.

It takes nouse and skills to be able to move and live abroad, not just a whim. This is from somebody that has been there and done that. If you don't have what it takes to get by in a country that does not let you in automatically, then you don't have what it takes regardless.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, January 18, 2019, 21:14:24
I’m moving to Greece in March - ahead of the glorious 29th. After 90 days I have to apply for a residency permit. I have to prove I have the financial means so as not to be a burden on Greece plus have valid health insurance.

The financial aspect is not just a Greek thing - it is a requirement for all EU members. Just why this hasn’t been implemented in the UK to control immigration I have no idea - would have made Brexit a non starter.

Obviously there was no political will to do so. Much easier to let the people vote, essentially on immigration, then for the Tories to appear racist by implementing existing policy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, January 18, 2019, 21:25:15
 Its interesting that when WWII ended, one of the main aims of the incoming Atlee government was to dismantle the Empire, with that in mind they granted the right to come and live and work in the UK to any citizen of what we'd now call the Commonwealth, roughly a 1/4 of the planet's population  It was largely uncontroversial, and lasted until 1971

 The thinking being, not many would bother, as the country we know has dodgy weather, largely cold damp and grey, the quality of housing which the Luftwaffe hadn't flattened, was poor. The industrial cities were highly polluted and healthcare was relatively primitive.

 However there were those that did come like The Windrush generation, and it was noted that they made a valuable contribution to the reconstruction of the country and the development of the fledgling NHS.

 After 71, it was a case that such an open door policy logically could not be sustained, and so restrictions were put in place.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, January 18, 2019, 22:20:55
I’m moving to Greece in March - ahead of the glorious 29th. After 90 days I have to apply for a residency permit. I have to prove I have the financial means so as not to be a burden on Greece plus have valid health insurance.

The financial aspect is not just a Greek thing - it is a requirement for all EU members. Just why this hasn’t been implemented in the UK to control immigration I have no idea - would have made Brexit a non starter.

Obviously there was no political will to do so. Much easier to let the people vote, essentially on immigration, then for the Tories to appear racist by implementing existing policy.

Actually, this is partly an argument for Brexit as well as against!  Some people are annoyed they come and take "their" jobs - that would be sufficient to qualify as being able to sustain yourself financially.  The fact that "they" were both taking jobs and sponging at the same time was always confusing to me, but logic has no place in this argument anyway.  It's purely emotional- the UK has a culture of invasion - defending from or losing to.  That has no doubt created the fear, and then you have the 20th Century which is just within living memory where Europe is bad.  It surprises me that other EU countries seem able to get behind the idea (mostly), but that may come from having their borders moved around a lot, of having odd lines where languages change that are not the same as the country borders etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, January 19, 2019, 02:01:03
Looks like my mate farage will be back soon with a new party now that ukip are embracing Mr yaxley Lennon.

Been on the cards for a while between Banks & Farage. Sure I mentioned before, something along the lines of;

The Patriotic Alliance. ::)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Saturday, January 19, 2019, 10:24:00
Been on the cards for a while between Banks & Farage. Sure I mentioned before, something along the lines of;

The Patriotic Alliance. ::)

Unless the Met Police get to Banks first. Farage is already a Person of Interest in the Mueller investigation too.  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, January 22, 2019, 20:08:06
So, what the actual fuck, other than carnage, is going to happen at the Irish border with a No Deal?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, January 22, 2019, 20:26:29
er, I'm sure it'll all be fine. Who needs the Good Friday agreement intact. I'm sure the Irish will understand...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Tuesday, January 22, 2019, 20:32:45
So, what the actual fuck, other than carnage, is going to happen at the Irish border with a No Deal?

The Irish could just ignore the EU border regs and go with the Good Friday ones


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, January 22, 2019, 20:36:08
But I presume the UK will want to stop all those scummy foreigners coming through the Irish border, no?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, January 22, 2019, 20:53:48
Arch Brexiter Dyson moving his HQ to Singapore. Gobshite hypocrite

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46962093


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, January 22, 2019, 20:58:54
Humph, Dyson was my software engineer retirement job plan.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, January 22, 2019, 22:51:07
So, what the actual fuck, other than carnage, is going to happen at the Irish border with a No Deal?

https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1087674720412200961?s=21 - The EU's view

https://twitter.com/KevDoyle_Indo/status/1087739489974403072 - Ireland's view


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, January 22, 2019, 22:52:01
But I presume the UK will want to stop all those scummy foreigners coming through the Irish border, no?

We'll just get other foreigners instead!

https://mobile.twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1087363097281601536


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, January 23, 2019, 10:41:34
Arch Brexiter Dyson moving his HQ to Singapore. Gobshite hypocrite

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46962093


No concerns about Dyson's astuteness

What the BBC article fails to mention is that Dyson took 16m. in subsidies from the British taxpayer in connection with the development of his electric vehicles and at a time when, coincidentally or not, there was a possibility that some of that manufacturing may take place here in the UK.

Dyson had contended in 2017 that "No Deal" tariffs would not be a big factor for his trade.  Since then, the EU has concluded a trade deal enabling zero tariff exports from Singapore to Europe. If the UK does indeed crash out with a "No Deal" in 9 weeks time, then tarrif-free exports from Singapore to the EU from a UK HQ'd could be lost.  Is this timing and the loss of a great EU:Singapore trade deal co-incidental?

It strikes me as very lazy, Adver-standard journalism that the BBC simply regurgitates a Dyson press release so far as the reasons for the move are concerned as if it was just about "Asia is the future" and a symbolical new brass plate abroad.  Also "minimal differences" in tax?  Dyson's lawyers and accountants will have been pouring over this.

Tbf, he still does employ 4k in R&D etc here.  He is a great, innovative businessman. But when it comes to business or patriotism, he follows the money just like any other multinational corporate.  In this case, Singapore and its shiny new trade deal with the EU, seem to look better regardless of what he might have said about "no deal" in the past.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 23, 2019, 10:51:26
Brexit related or not it's likely not a great sign for long term r&d in the UK.

I know for a fact that on the vacuum/hand dryer/robotics side done senior UK staff are reporting to Singapore, a change made a few months ago


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 23, 2019, 12:04:21
Brexit related or not it's likely not a great sign for long term r&d in the UK.

Not sure about that... in the UK we still produce creative thinkers, in arts, science and technologies, but it's axiomatic that there are not so many of them. 

It's the manufacturing element that has deserted, which is why those jobs have gone East, and created the precariat, which is growing and will continue to grow with the right's view of Brexit being introduced.

The threat to the R and D, comes from a further emboldenment of the right..... you didn't get too many creative types hanging about in 30's/40's Germany.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Wednesday, January 23, 2019, 13:56:29

The threat to the R and D, comes from a further emboldenment of the right..... you didn't get too many creative types hanging about in 30's/40's Germany.

Just enough to create the worlds first jet fighter and ICBM. And the fore runner for today's diesel/electric submarines.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, January 23, 2019, 16:28:08
Just enough to create the worlds first jet fighter and ICBM. And the fore runner for today's diesel/electric submarines.

Motorways, the first rocket to reach the outer atmosphere,the first mass produced hellicopter,The list for R&D is rather long. They also started a ban on smoking in public places,welfare payments and supported animal conservation. Trouble is like all National socialist there was a lack of care for other humans.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Friday, January 25, 2019, 07:24:10
Thank you to Her Majesty for the recent wise words. I will heed them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, January 25, 2019, 08:40:18
plus the German car industry didn't exactly suffer from the Luftwaffe being ground


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 25, 2019, 09:21:53
plus the German car industry didn't exactly suffer from the Luftwaffe being ground

Useless fact of the day, the post war rebirth of the German car industry was almost entirely down to a bloke from Yorkshire.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, January 25, 2019, 09:46:57
Useless fact of the day, the post war rebirth of the German car industry was almost entirely down to a bloke from Yorkshire.

I did not know that. Explain!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 25, 2019, 09:53:00
I did not know that. Explain!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Hirst


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Friday, January 25, 2019, 10:16:48
Very interesting that, cheers horlock


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, January 25, 2019, 10:16:55
Cheers, every day is a learning day


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, January 25, 2019, 10:21:28
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Hirst

So although Hirst had an impact at VW, it's an exaggeration to claim he was responsible for the whole of the German motor industry.

You might as well claim that George Turnbull was responsible for creating the  S Korean car industry... as although he had a major impact, there were many other factors at work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Turnbull_(businessman)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 25, 2019, 10:27:47
So although Hirst had an impact at VW, it's an exaggeration to claim he was responsible for the whole of the German motor industry.

You might as well claim that George Turnbull was responsible for creating the  S Korean car industry... as although he had a major impact, there were many other factors at work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Turnbull_(businessman)

Ah Mr Smeaton I have been expecting you and your need to contradict....  :D :hmmm:

Not really but I don't really have time to provide an entire summary of the books I have read on the subject.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, January 25, 2019, 10:42:57
Ah Mr Smeaton I have been expecting you and your need to contradict....  :D :hmmm:

Not really but I don't really have time to provide an entire summary of the books I have read on the subject.

I like things to be at least within the realms of factual accuracy.... much work was done by Britain on the rebuilding of post war Germany, as I think after the consequences of the more draconian post WWI terms, it was realised that co-operation was the way forward.

Hence the formation of the Coal and Steel Community. Churchill was very keen on there being a European Union, he just didn't want us in it, preferring to preserve the Empire.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Friday, January 25, 2019, 13:51:16
which, of course, the merkins did not want us to have any more


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 25, 2019, 14:53:21
which, of course, the merkins did not want us to have any more

Isn't a merkin a vaginal wig?  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, January 25, 2019, 20:22:16
The threat to the R and D, comes from a further emboldenment of the right..... you didn't get too many creative types hanging about in 30's/40's Germany.

That really is a pathetic comment. 

It's true (as has been pointed out) that actually Nazi Germany produced a great many creative types including the driving force behind the US space programme, but more importantly the stereotypical idea that being right wing in 2019 Britain somehow equates you to Nazi Germany is absurd.

"Oh you're thinking of voting Tory?  So basically you want to murder every Jew in the world."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Friday, January 25, 2019, 23:46:43
Isn't a merkin a vaginal wig?  :hmmm:

yes sir, it certainly is


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, January 26, 2019, 01:20:30
That really is a pathetic comment. 

It's true (as has been pointed out) that actually Nazi Germany produced a great many creative types including the driving force behind the US space programme, but more importantly the stereotypical idea that being right wing in 2019 Britain somehow equates you to Nazi Germany is absurd.

"Oh you're thinking of voting Tory?  So basically you want to murder every Jew in the world."

I'm happy to disagree, if you think that Germany in the 30's and 40's and other fascist states like Italy and Spain were hotbeds of creativity.

The extrapolation of "the stereotypical idea" is entirely yours, and not mentioned. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Saturday, January 26, 2019, 10:06:35
https://news.sky.com/story/swindons-magic-roundabout-is-a-metaphor-for-brexit-11615897


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Saturday, January 26, 2019, 10:59:24
The guy who is escorted down the front of the DR every match is shown at 00:15


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Saturday, January 26, 2019, 12:01:18
https://news.sky.com/story/swindons-magic-roundabout-is-a-metaphor-for-brexit-11615897

So the sum total of Swindon's public opinions is pensioners in Blues and pensioners in Yates. What a fucking pointless article.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Saturday, January 26, 2019, 12:14:18
So the sum total of Swindon's public opinions is pensioners in Blues and pensioners in Yates. What a fucking pointless article.
It is totally pointless, I agree.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, January 26, 2019, 12:23:28
So the sum total of Swindon's public opinions is pensioners in Blues and pensioners in Yates. What a fucking pointless article.

Further the Magic is the polar opposite of Brexit, having been planned with a specific aim in mind, which it efficiently achieves.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, January 26, 2019, 12:40:53
That really is a pathetic comment. 

It's true (as has been pointed out) that actually Nazi Germany produced a great many creative types including the driving force behind the US space programme, but more importantly the stereotypical idea that being right wing in 2019 Britain somehow equates you to Nazi Germany is absurd.

"Oh you're thinking of voting Tory?  So basically you want to murder every Jew in the world."

“Oh you're thinking of voting Labour?  So basically you want to murder every Jew in the world." I’d suggest that that at least equally applies. Not suggesting either comment is your opinion of course.

It could be argued that history shows that “regimes” whether politically or ideologically based tent to persecute, torture, lock up and murder those they see as being a danger to them. Those individuals tent to be the more intelligent and creative section of society and offer alternative views as to those who see them as being a danger to said regime. Similarly the momentum movement on the left and that twat Robinson on the right, though without the persecute, torture, lock up and murder element, yet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, January 29, 2019, 23:52:47
So parliament backs may to go back to the EU to renegotiate the exit deal which the EU have said all along is non negotiable, giving the opportunity for the right wing press to lay the blame for our own governments incompetence completely at the door of the EU, and for the moronic, jingoistic, closest racist cunts who i share this rock in an ocean with to back a no deal exit with even more vigour

I fucking hate everything about this


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 01:56:18
So parliament backs may to go back to the EU to renegotiate the exit deal which the EU have said all along is non negotiable, giving the opportunity for the right wing press to lay the blame for our own governments incompetence completely at the door of the EU, and for the moronic, jingoistic, closest racist cunts who i share this rock in an ocean with to back a no deal exit with even more vigour
 

You forgot stupid,gammon,turn the clock back to the 1950's, white privilege in your rant.
There's still time for you to piss off to that other country called europe if it helps with your anger.
Try Poland or Hungry there's no racist cunts there


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 06:57:03
Daft fucking argument. Why don’t you fuck off to Norway, or Switzerland, or australia, or America, or any other of the hundreds of countries that aren’t in the EU


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 06:58:19
So parliament backs may to go back to the EU to renegotiate the exit deal which the EU have said all along is non negotiable, giving the opportunity for the right wing press to lay the blame for our own governments incompetence completely at the door of the EU, and for the moronic, jingoistic, closest racist cunts who i share this rock in an ocean with to back a no deal exit with even more vigour

I fucking hate everything about this
Drunk or sober when posted?


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 06:59:50
Quote
So parliament backs may to go back to the EU to renegotiate the exit deal which the EU have said all along is non negotiable, giving the opportunity for the right wing press to lay the blame for our own governments incompetence completely at the door of the EU, and for the moronic, jingoistic, closest racist cunts who i share this rock in an ocean with to back a no deal exit with even more vigour

I fucking hate everything about this
that's about the size of it. unite the Tory party for now in the hope this sight of "unity" persuades the EU to look again, which doesn't likely.

it's all about the remote chance of  uniting the Tory party, sod protecting the people


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 07:09:36
Drunk or sober when posted?

Stone cold sober.

Leaving the EU in a prepared and managed manner, with deals and infrastructure in place to manage that transition smoothly, while not what I wanted or voted for, would at least have been palatable

Flouncing off completely unprepared to please disaster capitalists and their facist lapdogs, I.e. the way things are heading, is fucking reckless, and the prospect of the unknown is genuinely fucking scary. I don’t know whether it’s incompetence or nefarious, but the government have fucked this up so ducking bad.

We’re fucking ourselves over for generations. And for what?


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 07:14:33
blue passports (with less freedom)

'taking back control' (backfilling with non EU immigrants )

being in charge of our own laws (even though about 1% of them were forced by the EU)

winner


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 08:18:41
And I should just clarify that I don’t immediately think you’re racist if you voted for Brexit.

But I do think all racists voted for Brexit

I think there is a point where nationalism spills into racism and xenophobi, and I think that, based on the margin of victory and the nature of the leave campaign (official and unofficial), the vote was ultimately won by Appealing to this subset of people (notwithstanding the complacency of the remain campaign)

I think the reason we’re in this position now is because that subset of people have hijacked proceedings, and been enabled to do so by powerful people in Westminster and Fleet Street who, while maybe not sharing the same sentiment, feel they can profit from it (either financially or politically)

I fail to see how any rational person, who has no unfair prejudices, can see a no deal crash out as a good outcome


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 08:26:00
Daft fucking argument. Why don’t you fuck off to Norway, or Switzerland, or australia, or America, or any other of the hundreds of countries that aren’t in the EU
Only if you come with me Bogus Dave, we can stream STFC games and watch the daily politics show together.
Think of all the "deep" and meaningful conversations we could have!
I could be yournumber 1 bestie and cunt


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 08:53:22
So, the only deal that was passed was one that the EU had already said no to and since re-iterated it's a no?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 09:09:48
Quote from: Flashheart
So, the only deal that was passed was one that the EU had already said no to and since re-iterated it's a no?

yeah, but they need us more than we need them. So they're just playing brinkmanship and will crumble to our demands at the 11th hour.

innit.

a motion passed rejecting no deal brexit. But it's non binding so pretty pointless


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 09:23:57
yeah, but they need us more than we need them. So they're just playing brinkmanship and will crumble to our demands at the 11th hour.

innit.

a motion passed rejecting no deal brexit. But it's non binding so pretty pointless

Pretty much it, parliament seems to have given Mrs May a mandate to go back to Brussels and ask for something that she has been told time and time again is unobtainable, its basically a case of Britain reverting to stereotype by asking the same thing over and over again in an ever louder voice arrogantly expecting this to be the best way to get our own way.

The oft repeated comment about the EU always taking things to the wire is plainly nonsense, yes they have been known to take things to the wire when its been an internal EU negotiation with last minute agreement as a way of keeping cohesion by compromise, however when its negotiating with a third party state, especially a dysfunctional one which doesn't keep its word and threatens to break its legal obligations there is no evidence to suggest that the EU will not just walk away, see TTIP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 09:46:03
I've been tied up for last two days and have happily missed all the Brexit news.  Can someone give me a simple concise summary?  My current vague understanding is:

1. We're going back to renegotiate backstop unilaterally but EU won't discuss anything until Parliament have confirmed what complete deal they will accept.
2. Parliament voted that we won't exit with no deal but non-binding on govt.
3. Parliament voted against extending March 29 deadline to exit.  Binding or non-binding?

Is that right? if so given that 2 & 3 are potentially conflicting which one takes priority?

Is that about it currently?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 10:11:53
Can someone give me a simple concise summary?

We're being fucked over by idealogues.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 10:15:37
We're being fucked over by idealogues.

Whilst many will not agree with the authors stance, this seems a fairly robust and short detail of where we find ourselves...

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/01/29/amendment-apocalypse-spineless-mps-just-voted-against-realit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 10:22:10
It's the endless repetition of 'in the national interest' that gets me.  When what the PM really means is 'in the interests of sellotaping together my fatally fractured political party for another week or two...and hang the consequences.'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 10:24:13
 It's looking increasingly like no deal... and crash out in April. Not to worry though the Tories are going to impose Martial Law, that'll be fun, as it certainly hasn't happened in my lifetime.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 11:14:56
It's looking increasingly like no deal... and crash out in April. Not to worry though the Tories are going to impose Martial Law, that'll be fun, as it certainly hasn't happened in my lifetime.
Better than Pogba Law. Fucking Man U!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 12:59:38
And I should just clarify that I don’t immediately think you’re racist if you voted for Brexit.

But I do think all racists voted for Brexit

I think there is a point where nationalism spills into racism and xenophobi, and I think that, based on the margin of victory and the nature of the leave campaign (official and unofficial), the vote was ultimately won by Appealing to this subset of people (notwithstanding the complacency of the remain campaign)

I think the reason we’re in this position now is because that subset of people have hijacked proceedings, and been enabled to do so by powerful people in Westminster and Fleet Street who, while maybe not sharing the same sentiment, feel they can profit from it (either financially or politically)

I fail to see how any rational person, who has no unfair prejudices, can see a no deal crash out as a good outcome

I'll take some umbrage - I reckon about 30 years of practically everyone in Parliament and the Press, poor and elites combined, are behind the vote to leave.  You can't call the thing broken for that long, undermine all it's benefit to the country and then expect not to find negative sentiment out on the streets.  Fucking bendy banana stories are where to look for blame, that and Rule Britannia.  The one problem I did have with the EU was the desire to broaden it without ensuring countries were truly signed up to everything and not just the economics.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 13:52:01
I'll take some umbrage - I reckon about 30 years of practically everyone in Parliament and the Press, poor and elites combined, are behind the vote to leave.  You can't call the thing broken for that long, undermine all it's benefit to the country and then expect not to find negative sentiment out on the streets.  Fucking bendy banana stories are where to look for blame
Prominent among those peddling that shit in the press were Boris Johnson and Gove when they worked for the Telegraph and the Times respectively. Successive editors of both papers should bow their heads in shame about some of the abject lies they allowed those two to publish on their watch, a habit they have continued in government


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 14:16:45
Prominent among those peddling that shit in the press were Boris Johnson and Gove when they worked for the Telegraph and the Times respectively. Successive editors of both papers should bow their heads in shame about some of the abject lies they allowed those two to publish on their watch, a habit they have continued in government

Any country where the Sun and the Daily Mail are the most-read newspapers was bound to run into political trouble sooner or later. They've been injecting lies and xenophobic venom into the body politic for too long not to cause necrosis of the heart.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 14:37:50
Any country where the Sun and the Daily Mail are the most-read newspapers was bound to run into political trouble sooner or later. They've been injecting lies and xenophobic venom into the body politic for too long not to cause necrosis of the heart.
Easy to point the finger at those two (and let's not forget the ever-rabid Express), but as I say the so-called "quality" papers are just as much at fault on this. And the liberal media hasn't done a great job at holding the bullshitters to account either. The press is a vital institution of a functioning democracy (one of the reasons why the far right hate them so much) and our media, both left and right, have failed us every bit as badly as our politicians


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 14:47:22
Easy to point the finger at those two (and let's not forget the ever-rabid Express), but as I say the so-called "quality" papers are just as much at fault on this. And the liberal media hasn't done a great job at holding the bullshitters to account either. The press is a vital institution of a functioning democracy (one of the reasons why the far right hate them so much) and our media, both left and right, have failed us every bit as badly as our politicians

Indeed one of the key problems in modern Britain is that proper journalism has frankly ceased to exist. One only has to look at Farage being held to account on Irish Telly the other night for telling blatant lies and Beth Rigby getting under Johnsons skin last night to see how proper questioning has become a surprising exception rather than the rule, in both cases the veil dropped and you could see the anger rising as it must be shock to them.

Diane Abbott is a liability, but when compares the questioning and ridicule she faces and compares with others to the right who bugger it up (Rory the Tory for instance) to see that these is something going wrong.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 15:22:19
  So anybody prepping for no deal  :hmmm:

  Given Bambi's shopping lists and Jayo's expertise on prices, I can only assume that securing essential supplies are entering people's thoughts.

 T'other day I went round to see a lady friend of mine who was sorting out her cupboards, light heartedly I asked if she was prepping for no deal.... yes, says she, on enquiry she was laying in stocks of bog paper and gin.

 But gin is surely distilled in the UK, says I.... but apparently juniper berries come from the EU, and may well become one of the shortage crops.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 15:29:21
  So anybody prepping for no deal  :hmmm:

  Given Bambi's shopping lists and Jayo's expertise on prices, I can only assume that securing essential supplies are entering people's thoughts.

 T'other day I went round to see a lady friend of mine who was sorting out her cupboards, light heartedly I asked if she was prepping for no deal.... yes, says she, on enquiry she was laying in stocks of bog paper and gin.

 But gin is surely distilled in the UK, says I.... but apparently juniper berries come from the EU, and may well become one of the shortage crops.

My DW keeps trying to stockpile gin, it doesn't end well....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 15:45:14
My DW keeps trying to stockpile gin, it doesn't end well....

Think the potential problems caused by a gin shortage for the women folk of the UK, are one of the reasons for martial law.... it'll make Hogarthian Gin Street, look like a Tim Martin Wetherspoon's rally for no deal.

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Archive/Search/2012/9/12/1347455997439/Gin-Lane-by-William-Hogar-001.jpg?width=300&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=10735e5fd8c500c6e2348256d26551e0)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 16:01:12
Think the potential problems caused by a gin shortage for the women folk of the UK, are one of the reasons for martial law.... it'll make Hogarthian Gin Street, look like a Tim Martin Wetherspoon's rally for no deal.

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Archive/Search/2012/9/12/1347455997439/Gin-Lane-by-William-Hogar-001.jpg?width=300&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=10735e5fd8c500c6e2348256d26551e0)

Take that and potential prosecco shortages into account and its going to be carnage.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 18:06:38
I pick my Sloes at home. Sloe Gin for me. Still have some 7 year steeped version in a cupboard.

As for wine and cuveé trade, the UK is one of the prominent markets in that niche. We'll not go short on Prosecco based equivalents. I can still enjoy an Aperol Spritz on occasion :)

As for incumbent political mentality; wasn't it Rita Brown who said:

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, January 31, 2019, 10:08:33
It's looking increasingly like no deal... and crash out in April. Not to worry though the Tories are going to impose Martial Law, that'll be fun, as it certainly hasn't happened in my lifetime.

 

Martial law will be imposed if Parliment blocks Brexit. Many in Westminster take a uk wage but work for their eu masters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 31, 2019, 10:32:17
Martial law will be imposed if Parliment blocks Brexit. Many in Westminster take a uk wage but work for their eu masters.

I would imagine it will equally be imposed once the food starts running out as hungry people tend to be rather stroppy, especially when they have been taken for a ride, I suppose the big choice is whether one needs to eat or not?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, January 31, 2019, 10:43:19
Martial law will be imposed if Parliment blocks Brexit. Many in Westminster take a uk wage but work for their eu masters.
The whole point of voting leave was to reassert the sovereignty of the UK parliament (there's an "a" in there, btw). But then when Parliament attempts to do just that, the Brexiteers aren't so keen. You lot really don't have much of a clue what you actually want have you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, January 31, 2019, 10:45:38
I would imagine it will equally be imposed once the food starts running out as hungry people tend to be rather stroppy, especially when they have been taken for a ride, I suppose the big choice is whether one needs to eat or not?

Here's a wartime ration allocation...


    Bacon & Ham         4 oz
    Other meat            value of 1 shilling and 2 pence (equivalent to 2 chops)
    Butter                      2 oz
    Cheese                     2 oz
    Margarine              4 oz
    Cooking fat            4 oz
    Milk                       3 pints
    Sugar                    8 oz
    Preserves            1 lb every 2 months
    Tea                        2 oz
    Eggs                     1 fresh egg (plus allowance of dried egg)
    Sweets                  12 oz every 4 weeks

   I reckon Bambi could do something with that once he's converted it to grams/kilos


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, January 31, 2019, 10:48:32
but work for their eu masters.

This kind of rhetoric just makes me switch off, I can't take it seriously. It's Ike-esque.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 31, 2019, 10:51:48
This kind of rhetoric just makes me switch off, I can't take it seriously. It's Ike-esque.

Its just the deep state paranoia that right wingers have been fed by people like Johnson and Rees-Mogg/Infowars etc, who would probably actually be part of such a clandestine structure if it actually existed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, January 31, 2019, 12:42:40
Martial law?

UK to impose this on Brussels....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/offbeat/this-could-be-the-funniest-piece-of-brexit-news-so-far-this-year-1.3777305?mode=amp


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 31, 2019, 12:47:19
Martial law?

UK to impose this on Brussels....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/offbeat/this-could-be-the-funniest-piece-of-brexit-news-so-far-this-year-1.3777305?mode=amp

Well many of them are all obsessed with the war despite not having lived through it, strangely their recollection of the Irish Troubles which they did live through is more lacking....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, January 31, 2019, 13:35:59
Out of interest, can one of you clever know it alls on here explain how the border into Switzerland works? Is it an open border to France and Germany etc? What with it being surrounded by EU countries and not in the EU itself?

I know its not a similar comparison, but I'm curious about it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, January 31, 2019, 13:50:17
Out of interest, can one of you clever know it alls on here explain how the border into Switzerland works? Is it an open border to France and Germany etc? What with it being surrounded by EU countries and not in the EU itself?

I know its not a similar comparison, but I'm curious about it.

(http://geosite.jankrogh.com/borders/chfr/lsgg/french_sector_road_north.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, January 31, 2019, 13:51:47
Out of interest, can one of you clever know it alls on here explain how the border into Switzerland works? Is it an open border to France and Germany etc? What with it being surrounded by EU countries and not in the EU itself?

I know its not a similar comparison, but I'm curious about it.

Switzerland is also in Schengen, but there are often queues at the border crossing points to check trucks etc. Of course when you've a population about the same size as London, that is less of a problem as fewer trucks are trying to get in... further domestic Swiss food production is about 60% of their needs, whereas in the UK its approx 50%.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, January 31, 2019, 14:04:41
It is a strange one.  Some of the suburbs of Geneva are in France, with the border running through the middle of a number of residential areas.  When we drove through one of the border crossings there a few summers ago, it all seemed very low key.  A bored Douanier waved us through from France in to Switzerland without looking up from his screen...although, to be fair, I wasn't driving a truck.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, February 3, 2019, 18:43:42
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/feb/03/nissan-confirms-new-x-trail-will-not-be-built-in-sunderland

Brexit voting Sunderland gets what it voted for.  Darwin Award in the post.

I shudder to think of the effect on the Swindon economy if Honda takes a similar view when the next significant investment decisions are taken.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Sunday, February 3, 2019, 19:02:21
I'm sure there will be some who will be knocking one out over this news.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, February 3, 2019, 19:10:46
There will be many more weeping at the senseless stupidity of it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, February 3, 2019, 19:16:02
I'm sure there will be some who will be knocking one out over this news.
Very much doubt it. Other than possibly Japanese car workers


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Sunday, February 3, 2019, 19:27:55
There will be many more weeping at the senseless stupidity of it.
There are quite a few who don't see it as senseless stupidity. In fact there are more who don't see it as such than do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Sunday, February 3, 2019, 19:29:55
What do these people who are losing their jobs, with little immediate opportunity for like-for-like work to emerge, gain?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, February 3, 2019, 19:39:29
There are quite a few who don't see it as senseless stupidity. In fact there are more who don't see it as such than do.

If the Nissan news is the beginning of a trend/pattern, my guess is that they soon will.  Positions are so entrenched, I know.  (I'm not immune.)  But facts/evidence on the ground will tell in the end.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, February 3, 2019, 20:07:17
What do these people who are losing their jobs, with little immediate opportunity for like-for-like work to emerge, gain?

Many Brexiteers think that when the foreign owners move their operations out post Brexit, that nice Brits like Mr Dyson, Mr Branson or Mr Ashley will be able to set up car building plants, for patriots to buy the products, and so good will they be that the rest of the world will want them too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, February 3, 2019, 20:35:09
Many Brexiteers think that when the foreign owners move their operations out post Brexit, that nice Brits like Mr Dyson, Mr Branson or Mr Ashley will be able to set up car building plants, for patriots to buy the products, and so good will they be that the rest of the world will want them too.
Mr Branson is a remainer who wants us to live in the eu so long as he doesn't have to.
He doesn't make cars which is a blessing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Sunday, February 3, 2019, 20:40:49
Many Brexiteers think that when the foreign owners move their operations out post Brexit, that nice Brits like Mr Dyson, Mr Branson or Mr Ashley will be able to set up car building plants, for patriots to buy the products, and so good will they be that the rest of the world will want them too.

Err like used to happen? Be a nice shiny plant for someone to make Sunbeams again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Sunday, February 3, 2019, 20:52:54
Do you remember hen the eastern bloc only had cars built in their own countries.  Lada's that sort of thing.

Is that where we're heading?  A nation of Austin Maestros?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Sunday, February 3, 2019, 20:54:59
Do you remember hen the eastern bloc only had cars built in their own countries.  Lada's that sort of thing.

Is that where we're heading?  A nation of Austin Maestros?

Skoda used to be a laughing stock and now their cars are extremely popular all around Europe.

Perhaps that’s the route of the well loved Maestro. I’m sure SRK will be proudly driving his Maxi in a town near you soon. The St George Cross proudly waved out the passenger side window and his copy of the Daily Express on the passenger seat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Sunday, February 3, 2019, 20:59:31
Funny how all that is seen as the terrible socialist nightmare of the 70's.  And we'll probably end up going back to  it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, February 3, 2019, 21:21:33
Mr Branson is a remainer who wants us to live in the eu so long as he doesn't have to.
He doesn't make cars which is a blessing.

So are you saying you'd buy a Renault Megane.... over a Virgin Meghan... or Datsun over a Dyson... or not shop at an Ashley, M and S.... Markle and (Lady Diana) Spencer store.

Off in a tumbril with you...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, February 3, 2019, 22:10:36
Quote from: Bob's Orange
Skoda used to be a laughing stock and now their cars are extremely popular all


er, so all we need is the Germans to invest in the UK car industry and..oh..

:)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, February 3, 2019, 22:16:42
Skoda used to be a laughing stock and now their cars are extremely popular all around Europe.

Perhaps that’s the route of the well loved Maestro. I’m sure SRK will be proudly driving his Maxi in a town near you soon. The St George Cross proudly waved out the passenger side window and his copy of the Daily Express on the passenger seat.
Haha I liked that, I did drive a Maxi in the early 70's. Then my fortune changed and I bought a Lotus, that make getting women easy. I'm sticking with my Bentley pure luxury German car. Was English once before we joined the eu.
it makes me want to puke all those remoaners talking about job losses, didn't give a fuck about all those jobs to poland


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 4, 2019, 12:41:16

it makes me want to puke all those remoaners talking about job losses, didn't give a fuck about all those jobs to poland
In much the same way as you're now shrugging off the job losses in Sunderland? And don't give a fuck about Dyson moving his HQ to Singapore?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 4, 2019, 13:07:01
In much the same way as you're now shrugging off the job losses in Sunderland? And don't give a fuck about Dyson moving his HQ to Singapore?

Shut your face you snowflake leftist libtard....  ;)

Anyway it doesn't matter, its nothing to do with Brexit, Esther McVey told me, yet Nissan's Europe boss then said it was...

Decisions decisions, who to believe???

Its been a funny old weekend, with the news that due to the likely Civil unrest no deal would cause measures are required to protect the monarch, so something like;

The government: “We can’t have a second referendum because there’d be civil unrest”

Also the government: “Good chance that things will get so bad and the riots will be so bad next month we’ll have to evacuate* the queen”

*Note I am using the headline as preferred in the Times yesterday, I am fully aware that to evacuate the Queen would actually require an enema.....


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, February 4, 2019, 13:19:05
looks like the Tories (May) are trying to bribe their way out of this fiasco by offering Labour MPs in shithole counties with pots of regeneration gold in return for brexit votes.

Seems they haven't realised she won't be here to actually implement said bribes


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 4, 2019, 13:21:24
looks like the Tories (May) are trying to bribe their way out of this fiasco by offering Labour MPs in shithole counties with pots of regeneration gold in return for brexit votes.

Seems they haven't realised she won't be here to actually implement said bribes

The way she can just conjure up billions to bribes others when required also suggests that Austerity was rather more of an ideological choice than many thought?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Monday, February 4, 2019, 13:21:50
looks like the Tories (May) are trying to bribe their way out of this fiasco by offering Labour MPs in shithole counties with pots of regeneration gold in return for brexit votes.

Seems they haven't realised she won't be here to actually implement said bribes
:D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, February 4, 2019, 16:52:32
Gets more and more like "The Thick of It", every time. We're (our Government incumbent) an absolute joke.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, February 4, 2019, 17:02:19
looks like the Tories (May) are trying to bribe their way out of this fiasco by offering Labour MPs in shithole counties with pots of regeneration gold in return for brexit votes.

Seems they haven't realised she won't be here to actually implement said bribes

There's Theresa's 'magic money tree' again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 4, 2019, 17:29:43
So we are retaining free movement as long as you are in a container, looks like a human traffickers paradise this taking back control lark....

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8350043/eu-goods-waved-through-british-ports-in-case-of-no-deal-brexit-to-avoid-massive-jams/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, February 4, 2019, 18:25:32
So we are retaining free movement as long as you are in a container, looks like a human traffickers paradise this taking back control lark....

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8350043/eu-goods-waved-through-british-ports-in-case-of-no-deal-brexit-to-avoid-massive-jams/

You can just see it can't you. School trips and Uni placements sent overseas in containers to avoid long delays at border control... :headhurts:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, February 4, 2019, 18:46:34
In much the same way as you're now shrugging off the job losses in Sunderland? And don't give a fuck about Dyson moving his HQ to Singapore?
Dutch door swings both ways, why are so called Brexit job losses terrible but ones lost due to our eu membership OK.
Try being a fisherman when uk waters are raped by eu nations but you cna't fish their's.Oh yeah and pay a few billion for such a shite arrangement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, February 4, 2019, 19:00:16
There are no job losses at Sunderland - just no additional jobs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, February 4, 2019, 19:01:29
Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey
There are no job losses at Sunderland - just no additional jobs.

yet...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 4, 2019, 20:10:51
Dutch door swings both w
Try being a fisherman when uk waters are raped by eu nations but you cna't fish their's.Oh yeah and pay a few billion for such a shite arrangement.

 The UK fishing industry contributes 0.5% of GDP.  Brexit on the surface would look advantageous, and probably will be in terms of creating maritime nature reserves around our coasts, but will probably do little for massively improving the lot of our fishermen and women. 

Several reasons for this... 1.  Much of our domestic catch isn't fish we Brits like to eat, therefore it gets exported to the EU.... it will now increase in price due to the tariffs put on to protect EU fisherfolk..... 2. The fish we like to eat are found mainly in Norwegian waters so we have a reciprocal arrangement with them, they fish our waters we fish theirs...they're not in the EU. 3. Most of the UK fishing is in Scotland.... Scotland voted to remain in the EU, and will seek independence when the final divorce deal gets revealed. 4. The English element of the industry fishes mainly in Irish waters, in the EU or Icelandic waters, not in EU, so deals wil need to be brokered. 

The good news for Brexiteers though is that recent research has shown British chip shops are selling endangered shark species imported from the US and Canada, and sold as the "fish" in fish and chips.... thats the sort of practice frowned upon by the EU.... so will now be able to fully brought into the open for the consumer to decide.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Monday, February 4, 2019, 20:58:48
...also, EU fishing quotas which were granted to UK operators have been flogged off to foreign multinationals. That's been allowed to happen by British Government policy, nothing to do with the EU. So Brexit will have little impact on fishermen's livelihoods.

Even the ultra-Brexitty Daily Express called it "selling off the family silver" https://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/peter-hill/937621/britain-fisheries-fish-quotas-north-sea-bristol-channel-blue-passports-brexit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 4, 2019, 21:47:12
...also, EU fishing quotas which were granted to UK operators have been flogged off to foreign multinationals. That's been allowed to happen by British Government policy, nothing to do with the EU. So Brexit will have little impact on fishermen's livelihoods.

Even the ultra-Brexitty Daily Express called it "selling off the family silver" https://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/peter-hill/937621/britain-fisheries-fish-quotas-north-sea-bristol-channel-blue-passports-brexit

The fishing and merchant fleets do hold an iconic place in the heart of any true Brit.... merchant notably for managing to keep the country fed during the war years and fishing for the terrible conditions in which the fellas worked to give us our fish and chips.

I remember the Hull tragedies more or less 51 years ago......

Safety standards abysmal, sort of thing the EU is good at, and the sort of thing Brexiteers wish to do away with as "red tape"

P and O, are now being flagged in Cyprus, due to Brexit....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 5, 2019, 08:46:34
Safety standards abysmal, sort of thing the EU is good at, and the sort of thing Brexiteers wish to do away with as "red tape"


Indeed, once we get rid of the pesky EU and their safety regs we won't have to worry about silly things like this anymore, anyone can fly any shed in our airspace...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47115732

P and O, are now being flagged in Cyprus, due to Brexit, not necessarily a problem as plenty of operators go under a flag of convenience..... however if you have the qualifications for working in a sea going environment, the present EU wide qualifications held by British merchant men will lapse

Not sure this is correct, aren't international marine standards and qualifications under the auspices of the IMO, which we are not leaving yet.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, February 5, 2019, 09:26:14
Indeed, once we get rid of the pesky EU and their safety regs we won't have to worry about silly things like this anymore, anyone can fly any shed in our airspace...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47115732

Not sure this is correct, aren't international marine standards and qualifications under the auspices of the IMO, which we are not leaving yet.....

You could well be right, I'm going by an opinion in a newspaper article.....

Quote
Yet Brexit will be a problem for British crews, who need certificates of competency. Once their certificates lapse, as with other professions and trades, it may take years before the EU recognises UK qualifications: we’ll join a long queue of countries applying; and without recognised certificates, British citizens can’t work

The opinion isn't backed up, so might well be suspect. I'll withdraw the comment....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, February 5, 2019, 09:56:11
Dutch door swings both ways, why are so called Brexit job losses terrible but ones lost due to our eu membership OK.
Nobody said that. False premise. As usual.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 5, 2019, 10:28:13
Nobody said that. False premise. As usual.

I am interested to hear about all these jobs due to EU membership?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, February 5, 2019, 10:51:15
I am interested to hear about all these jobs due to EU membership?

You might be waiting a while to hear from SRK then.... as he was talkng about jobs lost due to EU membership.

A favourite amongst Brexiteers, is the closure of the Ford plant in Bridgend, they claim the EU funded the building of a plant in Turkey.  Whilst it's true that Ford reorganised their operation and Bridgend lost out, I'm not sure of the whole story.

What we do know, is that companies like Ford can easily be swayed by a government giving them tax payers money.... like how Ford ended up in South Wales having received such encouragement from the Labour government of the 70's.

It's been good to see this week the Tories looking to pursue a similar policy for Nissan, even though it seems to have failed, they usually only apply such socialism to propping up bankers, arms manufacturers, hedge fund operators, land owners and tax evaders.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, February 5, 2019, 11:06:23
You might be waiting a while to hear from SRK then.... as he was talkng about jobs lost due to EU membership.

A favourite amongst Brexiteers, is the closure of the Ford plant in Bridgend, they claim the EU funded the building of a plant in Turkey.  Whilst it's true that Ford reorganised their operation and Bridgend lost out, I'm not sure of the whole story.

What we do know, is that companies like Ford can easily be swayed by a government giving them tax payers money.... like how Ford ended up in South Wales having received such encouragement from the Labour government of the 70's.

It's been good to see this week the Tories looking to pursue a similar policy for Nissan, even though it seems to have failed
It's not just this week, that's how Nissan ended up coming here in the first place - they wanted a European base and our govt offered them a better "package" (bribes) than other EU states.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 5, 2019, 11:14:31
It's not just this week, that's how Nissan ended up coming here in the first place - they wanted a European base and our govt offered them a better "package" (bribes) than other EU states.

Also

“If we were outside the [European] Community, it is very unlikely that Nissan would have given the United Kingdom serious consideration as a base for this substantial investment." Sir Keith Joseph, Secretary of State for Industry in Margaret Thatcher's first Cabinet, 1980.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, February 5, 2019, 11:20:31
It's not just this week, that's how Nissan ended up coming here in the first place - they wanted a European base and our govt offered them a better "package" (bribes) than other EU states.

The sweet irony here, is that it was Thatcher applying this socialism, she liked the single market, and the Japanese liked the handouts, the laws and the first rate unionised work force.  This enabled them to sell in the EU without tariff.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, February 5, 2019, 16:29:55
The sweet irony here, is that it was Thatcher applying this socialism, she liked the single market, and the Japanese liked the handouts, the laws and the first rate unionised work force.  This enabled them to sell in the EU without tariff.
Hold on! Japan can sell to the eu without tariff. Why didn't the UK ask for that deal. Do the Japanese have visa free travel and controls over who can enter their country. How much does that cost them, they must be paying millions without any say over eu laws,direction and a seat at the top table.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 5, 2019, 18:29:50
You can just see it can't you. School trips and Uni placements sent overseas in containers to avoid long delays at border control... :headhurts:
It's a little outside my area of expertise but if we employ an open borders policy with the EU are we not required by the mythical WTO rules to operate on that basis with every other nation, so basically tariff free access to the UK market for everyone, that's not going go do industry, manufacturing or agriculture much good?

Sent from my SM-J330FN


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, February 5, 2019, 20:45:31
It's a little outside my area of expertise but if we employ an open borders policy with the EU are we not required by the mythical WTO rules to operate on that basis with every other nation, so basically tariff free access to the UK market for everyone, that's not going go do industry, manufacturing or agriculture much good?

Sent from my SM-J330FN

Absolutely!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 6, 2019, 09:33:49

Even the ultra-Brexitty Daily Express called it "selling off the family silver" https://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/peter-hill/937621/britain-fisheries-fish-quotas-north-sea-bristol-channel-blue-passports-brexit

The Daily Express, the paramilitary wing of the Daily Mail (c) J. Hardy!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 6, 2019, 09:57:22
The UK fishing industry contributes 0.5% of GDP.  Brexit on the surface would look advantageous, and probably will be in terms of creating maritime nature reserves around our coasts, but will probably do little for massively improving the lot of our fishermen and women. 

Several reasons for this... 1.  Much of our domestic catch isn't fish we Brits like to eat, therefore it gets exported to the EU.... it will now increase in price due to the tariffs put on to protect EU fisherfolk.....

80% of the UK fishing catch is exported, 2/3 of which goes to the EU.

...also, EU fishing quotas which were granted to UK operators have been flogged off to foreign multinationals. That's been allowed to happen by British Government policy, nothing to do with the EU. So Brexit will have little impact on fishermen's livelihoods.


Indeed https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/11/fishing-quota-uk-defra-michael-gove/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 09:57:03
The Guardian is, for me, the only paper that consistently lays serious claim to being even more absurdly one-eyed than the Mail, but even they manage to get it right occasionally.  Today they scored Boris (along with Farage) as being the person most likely to be residing in Donald Tusk's special hell. 

May is incompetent, Corbyn is clueless & gutless, Davis is stupid & lazy, Rees-Mogg is a fanatic, Farage is Farage, but all of them have at least some claim to be doing what they genuinely believe to be right for the UK. 

It's only Boris, currently sitting on his hands doing/saying/offering fuck all to resolve the mess he helped create, who has demonstrated the most staggeringly self-serving, selfish opportunism.  And yet some people still think he's cute and loveable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 10:38:42
The Guardian is, for me, the only paper that consistently lays serious claim to being even more absurdly one-eyed than the Mail, but even they manage to get it right occasionally.

I've read a daily Guardian, for many years.  I know what it is like.  One of the key elements is to present a wide range of views from it's columnists, these will range across most of the whole political spectrum, with even the odd far right contributor.  Therefore to call it one eyed is nonsense.  The idea is that readers take in the variety of opinion and then think about it.

Of course the editorial team have their opinions and at certain times express them, like at elections or in key Brexit passages, and although this house view might be seen to be at odds with many of the regular contributors, I suspect regular readers can understand this. 

Hence this plurality of view might be dressed up in a political sense as Liberal.... the present house view, being pro feminist, pro human rights, pro capitalism. pro EU, anti Corbyn.  If such a thing as the SDP still existed, the editorial team would be right behind it seeking Shirley Williams as PM.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 10:50:44
The Guardian is, for me, the only paper that consistently lays serious claim to being even more absurdly one-eyed than the Mail, but even they manage to get it right occasionally.  Today they scored Boris (along with Farage) as being the person most likely to be residing in Donald Tusk's special hell.  

May is incompetent, Corbyn is clueless & gutless, Davis is stupid & lazy, Rees-Mogg is a fanatic, Farage is Farage, but all of them have at least some claim to be doing what they genuinely believe to be right for the UK.  

It's only Boris, currently sitting on his hands doing/saying/offering fuck all to resolve the mess he helped create, who has demonstrated the most staggeringly self-serving, selfish opportunism.  And yet some people still think he's cute and loveable.

I would agree on the whole except the Maybot and the suggestion that she can claim to be doing what she genuinely believes to be right for the UK.  Firstly she voted remain and there are any number of videos knocking about of her saying its a bad idea for just the reasons it is panning out to be a bad idea, likewise her excuse for ploughing ahead is some nonsense about preventing civil unrest, then in the next sentence her government admits that when we leave at the end of next month things could get so lively that the Queen needs to be moved to a safe location. She is a clueless xenophobic opportunist control freak who hates people who don't look or sound like her (see her performance at the Home Office now being perpetuated in No.10), I wonder whether there is a degree of arrogant Christian nutcase about her - what is delightful is that Javid seems to have seen her actions and replied with 'hold my pint' as he is trying to out unpleasant her, obviously concluding that being a bastard to forrins (or perceived forrins) is the best way to get the membership vote in any subsequent leadership election.

Corbyn has officially completely gone round the bend in the last 24 hours, can I just put on record how gloriously bat crap crazy his new 'demands' are, he has ripped up the existing 6 tests policy (must have missed the bit where the membership voted to make this policy in his new cuddly membership led party) and come up with a comedy 5 tests.... the best being

The Labour leader's five demands include a "permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs union" aligned with the EU's customs rules but with an agreement "that includes a UK say on future EU trade deals".

So we are leaving yet want to be able to have a say on what trade deals a third party organisation can make...  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

As for Johnson the BBC have to shoulder a lot of the blame for his cuddly image as they fostered the lovable buffoon stuff on HIGNFY etc.

In conclusion the country is an embarrassing shit show, looking like a dick throughout the world and generally fucked, hopefully all the major parties will implode in the next 6-12 months and perhaps we can start again.
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 14:32:00
In all fairness, you can probably limit the area where we look a dick a little, the people over here don't have a Scooby what is going on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 15:17:07
I've read a daily Guardian, for many years.  I know what it is like.  One of the key elements is to present a wide range of views from it's columnists, these will range across most of the whole political spectrum, with even the odd far right contributor.  Therefore to call it one eyed is nonsense.  The idea is that readers take in the variety of opinion and then think about it.

Of course the editorial team have their opinions and at certain times express them, like at elections or in key Brexit passages, and although this house view might be seen to be at odds with many of the regular contributors, I suspect regular readers can understand this. 

Hence this plurality of view might be dressed up in a political sense as Liberal.... the present house view, being pro feminist, pro human rights, pro capitalism. pro EU, anti Corbyn.  If such a thing as the SDP still existed, the editorial team would be right behind it seeking Shirley Williams as PM.

The guardian is an extremist far left communist paper, it only represents a marxist view of the world. As for it being right from time to time, more like once a decade and relating to something arty. With regard to politics, the gardian still pushes the same failed commie dogma of the late 1800s. It never worked but hey ho, a few people will get rich from it so its worth their while, spouting class war, tax the rich, envy politics. Poly Toynbee is a classic example with her tax everyone else but don't touch my wealth and Tuscan villa, she's against private education but attending Badminton School, a girls' independent school in Bristol. That's left wing politics for you do as I say not as I do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 15:20:25
The guardian is an extremist far left communist paper...

No it isn't.

I didn't bother with the rest of your post.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 15:21:38
The guardian is an extremist far left communist paper, it only represents a marxist view of the world.

Have you come across the Morning Star? I reckon you'd like it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 15:33:34
The guardian is an extremist far left communist paper, it only represents a marxist view of the world. As for it being right from time to time, more like once a decade and relating to something arty. With regard to politics, the gardian still pushes the same failed commie dogma of the late 1800s. It never worked but hey ho, a few people will get rich from it so its worth their while, spouting class war, tax the rich, envy politics. Poly Toynbee is a classic example with her tax everyone else but don't touch my wealth and Tuscan villa, she's against private education but attending Badminton School, a girls' independent school in Bristol. That's left wing politics for you do as I say not as I do.

With your spelling and grammar I suspect you are in fact a Guardian journalist and claim my £10.*

*Not really I suspect you are a right wing paranoid fantasist, but the gag doesn't work with that.  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 17:02:33
SRK's pals are getting proper naughty!
https://youtu.be/h3SQ0klExpY (https://youtu.be/h3SQ0klExpY)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 17:04:33
No it isn't.

I didn't bother with the rest of your post.

Very wise.

19th Century social and political history is something I like to read or read about.  I know you like a bit of Cobbett and have just finished reading Rural Rides again. What does come through, is Cobbett's personal bravery in trying to be heard in support of the ordinary worker, despite the efforts of the state to undermine him, by locking him up, which was a common response to dissent. One of his cause celebres, was the Peterloo Massacre of 1819, incidentally inflicted by the Yeomanry on a crowd who'd turned up to hear Henry Hunt, a Wiltshireman from Upavon. Wiltshire being a hotbed of dissent.

The Guardian was founded 2 years after Peterloo, by mill owners who were concerned about sedition and revolution, being pursued by other Manchester papers and when those organs were closed down by the Government, their more moderate tone prevailed.  This tone, might be claimed to include a tradition of freedom of speech, like the Cobbett model as a way of preventing extremism.

In 2010, the Guardian backed Clegg...as Ed Millband with his madcap ideas like price caps on utilities such as water, electricity and gas were thought dangerously radical, along with his idea of continued EU membership, but a referendum for any further constitutional changes.

So wedded to freedom of speech is Clegg that he now works for Facebook....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 17:21:12
SRK's pals are getting proper naughty!
https://youtu.be/h3SQ0klExpY (https://youtu.be/h3SQ0klExpY)
Are you sure that isn't SRK?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 17:23:30
He seems like an inspiring fellow.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 17:33:58
He seems like an inspiring fellow.

Serious question, does Swindon have a large UKIP presence its mainly Tory isn't it, have there been UKIP gains candidates etc?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 17:40:38

So wedded to freedom of speech is Clegg that he now works for Facebook....

The joy of Facebook.
I once had Jasper Carrott as one of their "friend" suggestions.
Only joined to look at some photos of Panini Calciatori albums that some Italian guy was offering for sale outside of eBay.
(They are works of art by the way.)
I suspect that leaving FB will prove to be much less straightforward than a Brexit negotiation.

As the resources available for law enforcement continue to be eroded, then at some stage, trial, judgement & "execution" by social media night become the reality.
If it isn't already.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 17:48:44
"Remember, Brexit means exit."

 :doh:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 17:49:43
Serious question, does Swindon have a large UKIP presence its mainly Tory isn't it, have there been UKIP gains candidates etc?
Not really no. There was a UKIP candidate at the last election, Martin Costello, who took part in the trashing of the lefty bookshop in London along with some serious far-right nutjobs and has spent a lot of time since trying variously to deny it or justify it. He's one of the organisers (or more likely the organiser) of this Swindon Yellow Vest thing, hilariously one of their campaign aims is freedom of speech (always goes well with book burning, that). Then there's an ex Tory, John Short, who used to work for the council who defected to UKIP who's more the conventional old school UKIP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 18:28:02
SRK's pals are getting proper naughty!
Counter protest on Saturday, at the Cenotaph by the Town Hall at 1 p.m. (tempting, but I'll be at MK!)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 19:21:28
Counter protest on Saturday, at the Cenotaph by the Town Hall at 1 p.m. (tempting, but I'll be at MK!)

Hopefully the Swindon Cenotaph Massacre of 9th Feb 2019 won't detract from the chavtastic shopping experience of the indifferent Brexit voting masses on Saturday afternoon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 19:50:55
I'm already putting this yellow vest protest thing to the Benny Hill theme tune in my head.  I'll bet it's going to be a sight to behold.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 7, 2019, 20:51:25
I'm already putting this yellow vest protest thing to the Benny Hill theme tune in my head.  I'll bet it's going to be a sight to behold.
More likely to be a case of blink and you'll miss it. They only got a couple of dozen loons to the ones in London


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 8, 2019, 12:52:39
Jesus Wept, no!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47171829/brexit-cambridge-professor-invites-jacob-rees-mogg-to-naked-debate


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, February 8, 2019, 15:31:39
 There's a certain irony in the news that if you  in Swindon you now have the longest wait to get a GP appointment in the country.  25% of patients have to wait at least 2 weeks in some cases longer. The irony being of course that GWR medical fund was seen as a forerunner of the NHS, and PMH was the first NHS new build hospital in 1960 as post war austerity started to ease.

 Why should this be  :hmmm:

  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, February 9, 2019, 10:39:18
Chris Grayling really should have his own series of The Thick of It

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/09/government-cancels-brexit-ferry-contract-with-no-ship-firm


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 10:19:21
One thing I find grating is how many are quick to accuse businesses of scare-mongering if they don't mention brexit in a positive light.

How many of these accusers have facts regarding individual businesses? How many have the facts regarding brexit's potential impact overall? How many would know what to make of the facts even if they did have them?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 10:35:08
One thing I find grating is how many are quick to accuse businesses of scare-mongering if they don't mention brexit in a positive light.

How many of these accusers have facts regarding individual businesses? How many have the facts regarding brexit's potential impact overall? How many would know what to make of the facts even if they did have them?

Possibly so, I am also rather interested to understand why so many companies are moving certain operations out of the UK at the moment when I keep hearing its nothing to do with Brexit, if so what are we doing wrong....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 10:36:19
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/blaiklock-farage-brexit-islam

So a couple of days after he came out all in support of them big Nige is now refusing to confirm whether he still supports them?

He's a very indecisive chap that Farage....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 10:55:25
Possibly so, I am also rather interested to understand why so many companies are moving certain operations out of the UK at the moment when I keep hearing its nothing to do with Brexit, if so what are we doing wrong....

It's perfectly feasible for the economy to crash and burn, while you're still in the EU, it happened in 08. Therefore it is feasible that the current downturn is more connected to global issues.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 10:56:09
I
He's a very indecisive chap that Farage....

I have developed a morbid fascination with his radio show that goes out on LBC when I am usually driving home from work.  The show always deals with Brexit, and callers to the show are almost always in favour of Brexit.  More often than not, calls start something like 'Alright Nigel, mate.  I've been a supporter of yours for many years.'  (I'm sure the same is true for Remain callers to James O'Brien's show earlier in the day.)

What really strikes me is how passionate and determined the callers are to leave the EU, and how little they fear a No Deal Brexit.  We are hopelessly divided on this as a country.  Since listening to these callers, I have started to wonder whether we are actually going to have to let the slow motion car crash of a No Deal Brexit run its course.  Maybe this is a necessary part of the process?  We are going to have to have this Suez moment where, finally, the penny does actually drop that the country has ceased to function within international norms - before we can emerge from the other side and seek something of a compromise and move on.  It's all too easy to cry 'Project Fear', until the predictions actually start to unfold.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 11:01:48
It's perfectly feasible for the economy to crash and burn, while you're still in the EU, it happened in 08. Therefore it is feasible that the current downturn is more connected to global issues.

But the only real relevant question has to be how much worse off will we be on whatever terms we leave on, and for how long.

And the question can't be answered in anything other than general terms right now - we don't know our exit terms, we don't know what deals we can get and how long it'll take to get them. Anything else is guesswork/lying.

The global economy is what it is. Regardless.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 11:13:08
It's perfectly feasible for the economy to crash and burn, while you're still in the EU, it happened in 08. Therefore it is feasible that the current downturn is more connected to global issues.



Ah so a global downturn that is only actually affecting the UK, got it now! We need to take a steer from the Dutch, they don't seem to be affected by this global issue....
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dy9S6IsWwAAfAcr.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 11:23:49
I also think people are struggling to divorce Brexit uncertainty from Brexit. Its easy to blame the former on the latter.
Ardiles - whether you like him or not, Farage is by far the most successful politician in my life time. Whether a force for good or evil remains to be seen. I'm an unashamed fan of his.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 11:37:54
Ferage is a dick, political performance or not. I have it on good authority from someone who went to school with him he's always been a dick.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 11:39:02
I also think people are struggling to divorce Brexit uncertainty from Brexit. Its easy to blame the former on the latter.
Ardiles - whether you like him or not, Farage is by far the most successful politician in my life time. Whether a force for good or evil remains to be seen. I'm an unashamed fan of his.

Rather depends how one judges success, the much hated Diane Abbotts 2017 GE majority is bigger than the sum total of every single vote Nigel Farage has been able to muster in all 7 General Elections he’s failed in.

35,139 vs 33,146.  Some could say if they were being unkind that the man’s a specialist in failure.

However to be fair, he has been very successful in pushing through a winning Brexit vote in the referendum, although his Russian funded pal might take more credit for that to be fair, Nige has proven less successful in explaining or delivering an achievable Brexit after winning the vote so sadly that's another tick on the failure side, if he doesn't get us out some people are gonna want their cash back?

Ferage is a dick, political performance or not. I have it on good authority from someone who went to school with him he's always been a dick.

The strange thing with Farage is that historically political shysters/frauds have some character/charisma about them, he seems lacking in that field (as is JRM)?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 11:40:13
I also think people are struggling to divorce Brexit uncertainty from Brexit. Its easy to blame the former on the latter.
Ardiles - whether you like him or not, Farage is by far the most successful politician in my life time. Whether a force for good or evil remains to be seen. I'm an unashamed fan of his.

He certainly is.  My only hope is that Enoch Powell's quote about all political careers ending in failure comes good at some point.  ;)

(The full quote is 'All political lives, unless they are cut off in midstream at a happy juncture, end in failure, because that is the nature of politics and of human affairs.'  If there's any sign of a 'happy juncture' on the horizon, I can't see it yet.)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 12:28:46
Ah so a global downturn that is only actually affecting the UK, got it now!

 Ah so  :china: Glad you've got it....

 https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/05/china-economy-slowdown-us-tariffs-trade-war

 Have a bit of China Crisis...

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7-jq0ub8us

 
 









Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 14, 2019, 10:39:47
This was pointed out to me in discussion last night, its old news but the cloud is clearing a little....

So our noble leader invoked Article 50 on the 29th March 2017, meaning that we had to leave, Deal or no deal, on the 29th March 2019, now one has to wonder why she was in such a rush to do this when it was blindingly obvious that she had no plan whatsoever, so why the rush you may think. Entirely coincidentally I am sure, the very harsh new EU anti tax evasion laws which make it virtually impossible to hide money offshore and tax evade, kick in on the 1st of April 2019, do we think the dates are possibly linked?

Even should we end up with an extension to A50 as many suspect will happen, I would expect it to include us seeking a dispensation to not be covered by any EU directives etc passed after the 29th March 2019 date.

For the leaders and elite, its only ever been about the wealthy saving cash, quite literally nothing else.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, February 14, 2019, 10:58:46
This was pointed out to me in discussion last night, its old news but the cloud is clearing a little....

So our noble leader invoked Article 50 on the 29th March 2017, meaning that we had to leave, Deal or no deal, on the 29th March 2019, now one has to wonder why she was in such a rush to do this when it was blindingly obvious that she had no plan whatsoever, so why the rush you may think. Entirely coincidentally I am sure, the very harsh new EU anti tax evasion laws which make it virtually impossible to hide money offshore and tax evade, kick in on the 1st of April 2019, do we think the dates are possibly linked?

Even should we end up with an extension to A50 as many suspect will happen, I would expect it to include us seeking a dispensation to not be covered by any EU directives etc passed after the 29th March 2019 date.

For the leaders and elite, its only ever been about the wealthy saving cash, quite literally nothing else.

You're right it's old news...

Our MP's voted to trigger Article 50, by a majority of 498 - 114.  If they did so, in order to maintain their tax status without EU intervention, then they still can be held to account at the ballot box. The great British public and their representataives in Parliament voted for this shitstorm, so we get on with it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 14, 2019, 11:12:10
This was pointed out to me in discussion last night, its old news but the cloud is clearing a little....

So our noble leader invoked Article 50 on the 29th March 2017, meaning that we had to leave, Deal or no deal, on the 29th March 2019, now one has to wonder why she was in such a rush to do this when it was blindingly obvious that she had no plan whatsoever, so why the rush you may think. Entirely coincidentally I am sure, the very harsh new EU anti tax evasion laws which make it virtually impossible to hide money offshore and tax evade, kick in on the 1st of April 2019, do we think the dates are possibly linked?
Well that must just be a massive coincidence, otherwise there'd be a clear conflict of interest for her with her massive tax-dodging husband who's company has paid no UK corporation tax since 2009 despite a turnover of £500m. Taking the bins out may be a "boy's job", but it seems paying tax isn't.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, February 14, 2019, 16:51:15
More Brexit bad news. Airbus ends production of flagship A380 double-decker jet, putting 200 British jobs at risk.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, February 14, 2019, 16:54:46
This isn't Brexit bad news, though.  It's just bad news.  It adds to the Brexit bad news.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, February 14, 2019, 16:54:58
Nothing to do with Brexit. Airlines don’t want Jumbo jets any more. They all prefer the smaller, less fuel guzzling aircraft.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, February 14, 2019, 20:44:40
this is the fault of Brexit.  The U.K. housing market stayed in the doldrums at the start of the year as Brexit caused both buyers and sellers to hesitate on deals. (Bloomberg) Must be true.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, February 14, 2019, 21:18:40
put the beer down SRK


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, February 14, 2019, 21:21:07
put the beer down SRK
yeah OK


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, February 15, 2019, 12:48:47
 At the start of this thread.... the question was asked for I think 2015 election what were the main issues.... I suggested climate change.   

 So in my book it's good to see young school students in a variety of countries being prepared to take strike action to raise awareness, of what after all is what they are going to inherit, or not if the predicted disasters hit.

 What say you TEF political threaders? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, February 15, 2019, 12:51:22
Trump saw some snow on TV, Climate Change is off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, February 15, 2019, 13:17:02

 So in my book it's good to see young school students in a variety of countries being prepared to take strike action to raise awareness, of what after all is what they are going to inherit, or not if the predicted disasters hit.


 :thumb:

Anything that earns disapproval in a Sun editorial can only be a good thing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, February 18, 2019, 09:00:41
With only a matter of weeks to go "this shit just got real" we all need to be taking this advice. 

A special weekend to be held at the government-backed Emergency Planning College, in North Yorkshire, will teach attendees how to cope with Brexit.
Dealing with prolonged food shortages, surviving mass blackouts, and emergency first aid will all be taught by a team of eight field-specific experts. So too will unarmed combat, self-defence and urban foraging – just in case law and order breaks down. Among the advice to be dished out on the course – set to include a combination of classroom and outdoor lessons – is that dog food is actually edible for human consumption in emergencies; and a candle and a ceramic plant pot can be turned into an effective makeshift heater.
Dark days ahead my STFC friends. Start stocking up with Dog food and Candles now! Article from The Independent today.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 18, 2019, 09:28:09
Another gobshite billionaire Brexiteer hypocrite makes sure his fortune's safe from the impact of Brexit or from having to pay tax to the Britain he was oh so patriotic about during the Leave campaign:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/feb/17/brexiter-jim-ratcliffe-uk-richest-man-plans-save-4bn-pounds-tax-monaco-move


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 18, 2019, 10:22:43
   So as predicted somewhere back in this thread, a split in the Labour Party as 7 MP's quit.  A shame, but always likely.  In the words of Alexei Sayle... "what d'ya think of Shirley Williams.... I want to go to the toilet."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, February 18, 2019, 10:33:50
   So as predicted somewhere back in this thread, a split in the Labour Party as 7 MP's quit.  A shame, but always likely.  In the words of Alexei Sayle... "what d'ya think of Shirley Williams.... I want to go to the toilet."

Without getting into a discussion about the electoral system that makes this unlikely, it would seem like the best possible result for British politics is both major parties splitting to leave a left wing Corbynite Labour, a Social Democratic Blairite party, a One Nation Tory party and a hard right Brexiteer's Alliance. Then at least people could actually vote for something resembling what they want rather than just the big tent they hate least.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, February 18, 2019, 11:39:24
More than ever, this highlights the failure of the First Past the Post electoral system, which encourages political groupings or parties to stay together when, in fact, it would be better for all concerned if they fragmented.  All that has happened today is that one particular political grouping has reached breaking point.  It would have happened long ago under a proportional system of voting, because the perverse incentive to remain together would not have existed.

The Tories, of course, will profit from this under the present system, so will fight any move towards PR.  But if the process of fragmentation continues, it will become increasingly apparent that the current system - which can only work fairly or effectively in a two party system - is not fit for purpose.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 18, 2019, 11:55:09
More than ever, this highlights the failure of the First Past the Post electoral system, which encourages political groupings or parties to stay together when, in fact, it would be better for all concerned if they fragmented.  All that has happened today is that one particular political grouping has reached breaking point.  It would have happened long ago under a proportional system of voting, because the perverse incentive to remain together would not have existed.

The Tories, of course, will profit from this under the present system, so will fight any move towards PR.  But if the process of fragmentation continues, it will become increasingly apparent that the current system - which can only work fairly or effectively in a two party system - is not fit for purpose.

Although logically you're correct... if you think about how things might work with coalition governments, it kind of amounts to the same, people with some different ideas under a broader tent,  united by being in it for their own ends.

A classic example was 2010 to 2015... when your lot, were happy to prop up a Tory government, in contravention of the mandate they'd been elected on.  The reason.... ministerial cars, and nice juicy jobs in banking, PR, media etc, when getting ditched by the voters.  Failing that.... a nice wedge of expenses in the House of Lords.

These 7 know they'll be de-selected, so may as well quit, if they had integrity.... they'd put their platform immediately to the electorate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, February 18, 2019, 12:06:41
Agree to a point, but (a) they were my lot, but weren't last time around.  (They might become my lot again one day.)  And (b) comment on the Lib Dems' participation in the coalition is very black & white, in my view.  They did all the things you mention above, and a lot of good things as well.  I won't try to list them all here, but compare the coalition government (2010-15) with the ones that followed (2015-).  The Lib Dem influence on that coalition government is far too easily overlooked.  Of course they were always going to be the junior partner, but they did exert influence.

The traditional argument against PR is that it leads to weak government.  I don't think I need to develop that point any further, do I?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 18, 2019, 12:16:19
Agree to a point, but (a) they were my lot, but weren't last time around.  (They might become my lot again one day.)  And (b) comment on the Lib Dems' participation in the coalition is very black & white, in my view.  They did all the things you mention above, and a lot of good things as well.  I won't try to list them all here, but compare the coalition government (2010-15) with the ones that followed (2015-).  The Lib Dem influence on that coalition government is far too easily overlooked.  Of course they were always going to be the junior partner, but they did exert influence.

The traditional argument against PR is that it leads to weak government.  I don't think I need to develop that point any further, do I?

I'm pro PR, but see that it can lead to coalitions, which are in effect what you get under FPTP.... for example, the Tory Party has been riven for years by its war between Europhiles and Europhobes.... so under PR you could well get a Tory/UKIP type coaltion, which is more or less what the Tory Party is today.

Further, the reason why Cameron called the ref, was an attempt to defeat the UKIP wing, and prevent more defections to the right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, February 18, 2019, 12:21:55
Under FPTP, the coalitions are more rigid and inflexible.  FPTP disenfranchises millions of voters.  It's had its day.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 18, 2019, 12:34:18
Under FPTP, the coalitions are more rigid and inflexible.  FPTP disenfranchises millions of voters.  It's had its day.

I wouldn't be so sure in the 2011 referendum on the subject, if we take Swindon as a barometer, something psephologists often do,  we find only 39% of people could be bothered to vote and 70% of those wanted to keep FPTP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, February 18, 2019, 12:37:00
I wouldn't be so sure in the 2011 referendum on the subject, if we take Swindon as a barometer, something psephologists often do,  we find only 39% of people could be bothered to vote and 70% of those wanted to keep FPTP.

Did anyone think that referendum was anything other than a vote on whether or not people liked Nick Clegg?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, February 18, 2019, 12:41:33
Anything that shakes up the 2 party system is good. I always thought it was a joke that the best the USA could muster up was Trump v Clinton and then we go and have May v Corbyn. Both parties are a total farce at the moment. The fact Labour aren't 20 points ahead is shameful given the Tories total fucking up of everything they have touched in the last few years.
I'd like to think some of the more left wing Tories would join their Labour colleagues and give us a credible third party.
Both parties stink to high heaven and neither are worthy of anything other than complete contempt. Maybe it needed something like Brexit to show these shysters both red and blue in their true colours.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, February 18, 2019, 12:42:59
One thing that the break away group are right about is that UK politics is utterly broken.  There is so much that's wrong with it now.  The Tory/Labour duopoly (a direct consequence of FPTP) is a relic, and the root cause of much of the mess that the country is in at the moment.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, February 18, 2019, 12:44:05
Anything that shakes up the 2 party system is good. I always thought it was a joke that the best the USA could muster up was Trump v Clinton and then we go and have May v Corbyn. Both parties are a total farce at the moment. The fact Labour aren't 20 points ahead is shameful given the Tories total fucking up of everything they have touched in the last few years.
I'd like to think some of the more left wing Tories would join their Labour colleagues and give us a credible third party.
Both parties stink to high heaven and neither are worthy of anything other than complete contempt. Maybe it needed something like Brexit to show these shysters both red and blue in their true colours.

F*** me, Chalky.  We agreed on something!   :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Monday, February 18, 2019, 13:08:19
F*** me, Chalky.  We agreed on something!   :D

Maybe these 7 are on to something! :-)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, February 18, 2019, 13:33:46
Better to ignore systems in place today and find a new one.  I like the idea of PR - but that no government as such is formed as a result.  You then elect several key positions, like the Board, who steer the country but the elected officials work on the detail, having to come to negotiated outcomes at all times.  Done in a transparent manner, I think people could live with not getting everything they want and you essentially remove the need for party affiliation - you could maybe keep it for the top jobs to enable the necessary funding for a campaign.  It wouldn't work for years to begin with, you'd have to accept the initial shit storm as people react to a new system with old values, but we are doing that with Brexit anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 18, 2019, 14:15:20
One thing that the break away group are right about is that UK politics is utterly broken.  There is so much that's wrong with it now.  The Tory/Labour duopoly (a direct consequence of FPTP) is a relic, and the root cause of much of the mess that the country is in at the moment.

The mess isn't to do with FPTP.  And to answer Nemo, the AV ref, would probably have got more participation if it had been about ownership at Villa Park.

The vast majority of voters don't really care about such niceties unless it was tied into self interest, like the Brerxit ref played the Leave vote. Had the message been vote for PR and get a tax cut, or vote PR and cut immigration it would have flown.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, February 18, 2019, 14:44:38
The mess isn't to do with FPTP.  And to answer Nemo, the AV ref, would probably have got more participation if it had been about ownership at Villa Park.

The vast majority of voters don't really care about such niceties unless it was tied into self interest, like the Brerxit ref played the Leave vote. Had the message been vote for PR and get a tax cut, or vote PR and cut immigration it would have flown.

Have to disagree.  FPTP disproportionately rewards larger parties, with the effect that smaller political groupings starved of the oxygen that they need to grow.  Consequently, we are stuck with the existing duopoly - two monolithic parties that stifle ideas, insist upon conformity and force our politics in to a miserable, binary choice.  Hearing the acrimony of some Labour supporters towards this group of 7 only serves to highlight the crushing pressure to conform.  Why should they?!

By way of example, UKIP were rewarded with a single MP in 2015, despite polling 3.8 million votes.  I have very little sympathy with UKIP’s aims, as you know, but I recognise that this result was a travesty of democracy.  Leaves to wonder how much UKIP voter anger was a factor in the Brexit vote the following year.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 18, 2019, 15:00:59
Have to disagree.  FPTP disproportionately rewards larger parties, with the effect that smaller political groupings starved of the oxygen that they need to grow.  Consequently, we are stuck with the existing duopoly - two monolithic parties that stifle ideas, insist upon conformity and force our politics in to a miserable, binary choice.  Hearing the acrimony of some Labour supporters towards this group of 7 only serves to highlight the crushing pressure to conform.  Why should they?!

By way of example, UKIP were rewarded with a single MP in 2015, despite polling 3.8 million votes.  I have very little sympathy with UKIP’s aims, as you know, but I recognise that this result was a travesty of democracy.  Leaves to wonder how much UKIP voter anger was a factor in the Brexit vote the following year.

No the mess is caused by poor decision making.... this could come from coalitions of a more formal type, just as easily to the broad church coalition currently in place.

You might argue another Tory/Lib Dem coalition wouldn't have run an EU ref.... but PR might have chucked up a Tory/UKIP coalitition which would.

Politics is a messy business... it will still be a messy business under PR.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Monday, February 18, 2019, 15:25:53
Anything that shakes up the 2 party system is good. I always thought it was a joke that the best the USA could muster up was Trump v Clinton and then we go and have May v Corbyn. Both parties are a total farce at the moment. The fact Labour aren't 20 points ahead is shameful given the Tories total fucking up of everything they have touched in the last few years.
I'd like to think some of the more left wing Tories would join their Labour colleagues and give us a credible third party.
Both parties stink to high heaven and neither are worthy of anything other than complete contempt. Maybe it needed something like Brexit to show these shysters both red and blue in their true colours.

Would have been more of a statement if they had resigned completely. As it is they are still drawing their salaries and getting their backhanders from lobbyists no doubt. Wannabe political martyrs, without having any of the inconvenience of martyrdom.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, February 18, 2019, 16:08:43
The new political (not really a) party website is registered in.... Panama!

https://www.whois.com/whois/theindependent.group


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Monday, February 18, 2019, 17:07:59
The new political (not really a) party website is registered in.... Panama!

https://www.whois.com/whois/theindependent.group

Tax dodging already


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, February 18, 2019, 17:22:13
Under FPTP, the coalitions are more rigid and inflexible.  FPTP disenfranchises millions of voters.  It's had its day.

Of course you might want to take a look at the basket case that is Italy to see where PR has gotten them. Be careful for what you wish for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Monday, February 18, 2019, 17:38:39
Of course you might want to take a look at the basket case that is Italy to see where PR has gotten them. Be careful for what you wish for.

Or Sweden or Norway.  Be perfectly happy with that.
Imagine a country in which the proportion of seats you get in the House was in some way proportional to the votes received. Sounds pretty democratic to me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Monday, February 18, 2019, 17:50:24
Or Sweden or Norway.  Be perfectly happy with that.
Imagine a country in which the proportion of seats you get in the House was in some way proportional to the votes received. Sounds pretty democratic to me.

Next time there is a vote here what happens when neither of them get any?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, February 18, 2019, 17:59:25
Italy is a bad example.  They've been in kick the sandals off and chill mode since the fall of the Roman Empire, barring a brief flirtation with Fascism.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, February 18, 2019, 18:22:57
Italy is a bad example.  They've been in kick the sandals off and chill mode since the fall of the Roman Empire, barring a brief flirtation with Fascism.

A bad example? No, an example. Everyone’s own differing opinions will decide whether it is a good or bad example. Wait till their financial situation implodes, then you’ll see the real Italy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 18, 2019, 20:24:50
A bad example? No, an example. Everyone’s own differing opinions will decide whether it is a good or bad example. Wait till their financial situation implodes, then you’ll see the real Italy.

It's tricky to know what the real Italy is, after all it's only existed for a couple of hundred years and in it's early years under Garibaldi had to fight to maintain integrity, from Austrian and French occupation.

Garibaldi though was popular in GB, for his internationalism and socialist outlook, (socialism with a small s)

He ws so popular in GB that we named a biscuit after him.   Garibaldi, was also a believer that European unity was the way forward, a situation that still applies in Italy today.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Monday, February 18, 2019, 20:28:13
Next time there is a vote here what happens when neither of them get any?

We get Finland?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, February 18, 2019, 20:34:33
It's tricky to know what the real Italy is, after all it's only existed for a couple of hundred years and in it's early years under Garibaldi had to fight to maintain integrity, from Austrian and French occupation.

Garibaldi though was popular in GB, for his internationalism and socialist outlook, (socialism with a small s)

He ws so popular in GB that we named a biscuit after him.   Garibaldi, was also a believer that European unity was the way forward, a situation that still applies in Italy today.

I’m not sure I agree with your last sentence. Have you read Yanis Varoufakis ‘and the weak suffer what they must’? Or his other tome ‘adults in the room’?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 18, 2019, 20:46:53
I’m not sure I agree with your last sentence.

Doubtless there are many in Italy, who see unity as involving right wing populists, but they still see things in a European context.  So we see Salvini, cuddling up to Orban, and the Polish Law and Justice Party, with an agenda to move the EU to the right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 08:24:43
Doubtless there are many in Italy, who see unity as involving right wing populists, but they still see things in a European context.  So we see Salvini, cuddling up to Orban, and the Polish Law and Justice Party, with an agenda to move the EU to the right.

I strongly suggest you read the two books I mentioned. I doubt you will and if indeed you do I also doubt you’ll change your opinion on the EU.

Honda like Airbus have backed the wrong horse in global business terms. Airbus with the 380 and Honda with their tired long in the tooth civic C/W the demise of Diesel engines.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 10:33:06
I strongly suggest you read the two books I mentioned. I doubt you will and if indeed you do I also doubt you’ll change your opinion on the EU.

If you read my musings on this subject over the years, you'll have seen that I've always been ambivalent about the EU... aware of its flaws as an organisation and the UK role in it.

Our membership has always been a bone of contention in both main parties... indeed I go back to the days of Francis Noel Baker as Swindon MP.... an individual with the sort of back story, that it just isn't possible to have any longer... he quit Labour due to it's platform of opposition to the EU (as was)   That position is still held by many on the left including Corbyn.

Come the ref initially instinctively I swung that way, but ultimately voted remain, thinking of future generations not only in the UK but Europe.  Whilst I get the Lexit position, that to create an environment for the radical change required, you need to break up the pillars that sustain neoliberal capitalism like the EU... it is a somewhat utopian view, as part of the EU story has been about keeping the lid on fascism and conflict which has traditionally found fertile ground in many European countries.

In the 2 and half years since the ref.... I've paid very close attention to the arguments, and my presentl feeling is that Brexit isn't suddenly going to crash th eeconomy, but rather it'll be a slow puncture, like with Honda, economic factors for decisions, not helped by Brexit, as future planning comes into the pipeline.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 10:36:15

Honda like Airbus have backed the wrong horse in global business terms. Airbus with the 380 and Honda with their tired long in the tooth civic C/W the demise of Diesel engines.
Seem to have been quite a few who have "backed the wrong horse in global terms". 

Just in the last month:

Honda, Nissan, Ford, JLR, Schaeffler, Airbus, P&O, AXA, Bupa, Prudential, Barclays, Bank of America, UBS, Credit Suisse, Hitachi, Toshiba, Dyson, Panasonic, Sony, Phillips.

I think your "wrong horse" might just be the Unicorn Kingdom.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 11:12:28
They won't of course, but the seven should resign and fight their seats as independents or whatever.

When this has happened in the past there has usually been at least a degree of justification that something has changed significantly since the election.

Not this time. Corbyn was in charge with the current labour manifesto.  Their seven constituency electorates were therefore presumably happy with the leader and the policies which may make them very misguided but that was their prerogative.  If the MPs didn't support that leadership or those policies then they shouldn't have stood on the labour ticket.

Hatton is back in the fold so at least that makes the score 7-1.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 11:45:59
They won't of course, but the seven should resign and fight their seats as independents or whatever.
Completely agree. But as you say, they won't because they know they'd lose. However a few of their constituencies, such as Angela "funny tinge" Smith, are tight enough that they might scrape enough votes to split the Labour vote and let the Tories in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 15:50:17
Guardian today say 10,000 jobs will be lost because of the Honda,Brexit related closure, of the Swindon factory.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 16:00:54
Guardian today say 10,000 jobs will be lost because of the Honda,Brexit related closure, of the Swindon factory.

It's reckoned that 1 Honda job supports about 4 supply chain jobs etc. Not all the losses will be in Swindon


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 16:06:38
It's reckoned that 1 Honda job supports about 4 supply chain jobs etc. Not all the losses will be in Swindon

Indded. But a fair few are local. 400 workers sent home from the seat manufacturers in Highworth today.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: bathford on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 16:27:10
Guardian today say 10,000 jobs will be lost because of the Honda,Brexit related closure, of the Swindon factory.

My son works at Honda and this has nothing to do with Brexit. This is down to the downturn in Diesel sales linked to over capacity across Europe. Purely for political reasons, the European manufacturers will not cut back production. This stance is supported by their governments who don't want to see redundancies. Their unions would shut their countries down if they tried it.



Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 16:28:40
what % of Honda produced in Swindon are diesel? genuine q, saw a claim it was 17% earlier.

Not that it negates the point of over capacity in general, protectionism in Japan and yes cost of production of future models must be a factor too


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: bathford on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 16:38:55
what % of Honda produced in Swindon are diesel? genuine q, saw a claim it was 17% earlier.

Not that it negates the point of over capacity in general, protectionism in Japan and yes cost of production of future models must be a factor too

True, production costs must be a factor. If the downturn is the 17% you mention, that's 27,200 vehicles and it's only going to get worse. Honda will not plug that gap by moving production from their own country. The only way they would consider staying is more 'incentives' from the UK Govn't.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 16:50:58
I guess it's a weakness in the inward investment model that's served us well for a few decades now.  Companies domiciled elsewhere will use the UK as a base when it suits them, but you'll be first in line for the chop when things change.

Putting the two things together, though - Brexit and the new UE/Japan trade deal - means that it's now going to be cheaper to export a car from Japan to Spain than from the UK to Spain...which is nuts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: bathford on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 17:12:50
I guess it's a weakness in the inward investment model that's served us well for a few decades now.  Companies domiciled elsewhere will use the UK as a base when it suits them, but you'll be first in line for the chop when things change.

Putting the two things together, though - Brexit and the new UE/Japan trade deal - means that it's now going to be cheaper to export a car from Japan to Spain than from the UK to Spain...which is nuts.

Put 33% import tax on all imported cars. See how their market hear collapses!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 17:16:20
why would anyone want to do that?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 17:24:18
what % of Honda produced in Swindon are diesel? genuine q, saw a claim it was 17% earlier.

Not that it negates the point of over capacity in general, protectionism in Japan and yes cost of production of future models must be a factor too

13% the figure I’ve seen quoted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 17:40:20
Put 33% import tax on all imported cars. See how their market hear collapses!

Have you really thought this through?   ;D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 17:53:32
Put 33% import tax on all imported cars. See how their market hear collapses!

*here. Apart from chalkiesshorts, do any of the Brexiteers on here actually speak English?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 18:24:07
Quote from: Bogus Dave
13% the figure I’ve seen quoted.
Could be. I guess the point is  they were expecting to do more.

But this decision reflects future plans, not current production


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 18:31:52
*here. Apart from chalkiesshorts, do any of the Brexiteers on here actually speak English?

si cazzo


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 18:34:30
Car manufacturers are in a race right now to figure out how to structure.  Electric has them spooked as does automation.  Ford were busy trying to take the piss out of Musk when he got Tesla to the 7k cars a week production number by having to put up a temporary tented manufacturing plant and make people work around the clock.  That missed the point - he did it in tents!

If you are stuck producing things the way you have, the market is about to shift as fundamentally as automation or when the Japenese showed everyone else how to order parts Just in Time, and left companies looking like British Leyland looking like the useless dinosaurs they were.  Brexit may not be the cause, but it will be a catalyst for companies to take the long view - completely re-machine a legacy monolith in a non EU country for EU sales, or revert to Japan with a trade deal and give yourself more flexibility and slack?

Aerospace is another one - the A380 being a decision made at just the wrong time, given the change in the airline industry to twin jet engines and composite materials to get lighter planes with lower capacity, reducing fuel consumption and costs and moving from the Hub approach in many cases.  The lead times in design and production mean that one was doomed before it got going, and they reacted by investing in the mid sized planes, where they have stolen a march on Boeing in some areas.  That one is nothing to do with Brexit - but Brexit may come into play when they decide what their next big investment will be and where.

Us leaving the EU does not splinter the global market, it just means we have to find our niche within it - it will cause structural change and it won't be quick.  It may not all be bad, but nobody should pretend it won't create massive change.  This was always my biggest fear - nobody had a plan for what we should look like outside of the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 19:47:46
what % of Honda produced in Swindon are diesel? genuine q, saw a claim it was 17% earlier.

Not that it negates the point of over capacity in general, protectionism in Japan and yes cost of production of future models must be a factor too

More pertinent perhaps than proportion of diesel is that Swindon is the only Honda plant producing diesel cars, full stop. Apparently Swindon's output quality is very good, only Japan can match it, and they want all the new tech closer to home anyway. Hence why they won't just kit Swindon out with a new rig.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, February 20, 2019, 11:13:11
Heidi Allen, Sarah Wollaston and Ann Soubry are leaving the Tories to join Chukka and Pals.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, February 20, 2019, 11:24:33
There must be a lot more on both sides teetering on the brink.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, February 20, 2019, 11:29:55
There must be a lot more on both sides teetering on the brink.

You'd think so. Will be some interesting technical dynamics when they go past the size of the Lib Dems (would need two more MPs) and the SNP (24 more) as they'd get a lot more funding and questions at PMQs etc. Presuming they're going to get round to actually registering as a party anyway...

In order for them to survive in any real sense, they'll have to come to some sort of arrangement with the Lib Dems (also nominally centrist, anti-brexit), as much as they don't seem to want to for now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, February 20, 2019, 12:05:10
How will this new grouping differentiate itself from the Lib Dems?  They seem keen to keep some separation (talking of co-operating with, but not joining the Lib Dems).  But they certainly seem to have a lot in common with them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, February 20, 2019, 13:10:21
How will this new grouping differentiate itself from the Lib Dems?  They seem keen to keep some separation (talking of co-operating with, but not joining the Lib Dems).  But they certainly seem to have a lot in common with them.

Lib Dems are still a bit of a toxic brand though. Assuming the new groups in tention is to become electable joining was never an option.
Besides, people want 'different' to get behind. I know I do.

As for how they differentiate, that's a difficult one. Had there been/if there were a GE or another Brexit vote they could have used it as a vehicle. All they have at the moment is what they had before- a voice - just from a different part of the house.

So I think TBD.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, February 20, 2019, 13:28:31
Looks to me like people positioning ahead of a General Election - either Brexit No deal goes through some how or the Govt. end up having to just go back to the polls again.  Either way they've distanced themselves from their Leadership to give themselves a chance of reelection.

Some of the characters in the list hardly have what I would call aligned political minds.  A single issue party maybe, the opposite of UKIP.

Who said Lib Dems were Centrist?  Been a long time since they could take that label, they shifted well to the left when Blair was in charge after he grabbed that.  If anything, Corbyn would join that party today if he was starting out.  Blair certainly changed the Party, Corbyn looks out of sorts with the MP's and much more aligned to Lib Dem current policy positions.  The Libs used to be a successful party by not really having defined political positions and were able to take on local politics instead - they's be successful against both parties in odd locations.  Once they moved into old labour ground and then got tarred by breaking some of those promises, they lost credibility.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, February 20, 2019, 15:09:57
Lib Dems are still a bit of a toxic brand though. Assuming the new groups in tention is to become electable joining was never an option.
Besides, people want 'different' to get behind. I know I do.

As for how they differentiate, that's a difficult one. Had there been/if there were a GE or another Brexit vote they could have used it as a vehicle. All they have at the moment is what they had before- a voice - just from a different part of the house.

So I think TBD.

The only really noticeable difference between the Lab 8 and the rest of the party is on Brexit.... these are remainers. It should be noted that for all their rhetoric, when it comes to a manifesto, like in 2017 under Corbyn Labour is a moderate centrist party.  It stood in 2017 on a commitment to honour the 16 referendum.  If the 8 couldn't take that they should have stood down then.  

If they feel the electorate has changed its mind on Brexit, then they should put it to the test, by by-election


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 20, 2019, 15:35:16
So now the Independents have got more MPs than the DUP doesn't that mean Teresa will give them a billion quid from her magic money tree?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Thursday, February 21, 2019, 10:29:04
The Electoral Commission found the referendum unlawful. So should A50 be revoked? There's a major appeal in the High Court today, streamed on YouTube.https://youtu.be/YTz4aEQ5HBc (https://youtu.be/YTz4aEQ5HBc)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, February 21, 2019, 10:33:28
I’ve read that If the referendum was binding, rather than advisory, then it would already have been declared unlawful and results invalidated. Don’t know how true that is though


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, February 21, 2019, 10:38:32
I’ve read that If the referendum was binding, rather than advisory, then it would already have been declared unlawful and results invalidated. Don’t know how true that is though

So what you're saying is ..... if it was legal, it would then become illegal, but because it wasn't, being like a giant opinion poll, as soon as MP's voted for Art 50, that was that?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Thursday, February 21, 2019, 10:46:46
Yes, that's been established in law.
Today's appeal is about whether
1) it would be reasonable and democratic, in common law, for the PM to continue as if the referendum was binding.
2) It breaches a Vienna Convention on electoral law to which the UK are signatories.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, February 21, 2019, 11:04:17
None of the major news outlets seem to be covering this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Thursday, February 21, 2019, 16:02:30
The appeal has been refused. Reasons for judgement to follow.
Boo.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, February 21, 2019, 18:40:04
Thanks Reading Red.

In essence, had the referendum been binding it would have been set aside but as it was advisory May has been free to treat it as binding without need for any regard to the proven illegalities.  

Have to say counsel for the appellants did seem on the back foot but it will be interesting to read the reasoning.  The judges seemed reluctant to apply the Common Law to any remedy.  Or perhaps they had metaphorically ticked the "no publicity" box with the Daily Mail. ;)

Will you post the reasoning for us?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, February 21, 2019, 19:10:47
I might not be reading things right, but isn't this simple:

We had a vote - which had no mechanism to enforce anything, so it was a big opinion poll
The elected MP's later determined to serve notice, via A50, to the EU of our intention to leave
Our elected MP's are then free to try and negotiate any manner of deals, such as trade, with the EU - they don't have to come to any deal - by serving notice we leave regardless
That is the whole point - the vote gave the nod to Parliament that they have "Control" and need to get on with applying said "Control"

If we don't like what they do, we vote for other people to do something else, but while they are in Parliament they are our representatives and we take the outcome of what they vote for.

If they decide to agree a deal that leaves us in a Single Market, tough shit.

If they agree to just leave with no deal, tough shit.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, February 21, 2019, 19:38:25
Thats my take on it as well. As soon as article 50 is triggered it's game on - deal or no deal. They can, of course, withdraw article 50 and back as we were. The EU may allow us to extend article 50 but are under no obligation to do so. We're entering squeeky bum time.
I fully expect parliament to vote down Mays deal and not allow us to leave with no deal. Parliament to revoke article 50 and a general election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, February 21, 2019, 20:17:38
I fully agree with (and also respect) Robert and Chalkies but as an embittered "loser"  :) I am very unhappy that so little regard (indeed no regard in TMs case) has been paid to the illegalities of the Referendum vote.

May wanted to trigger Art 50 with no parliamentary backing and to keep Parliament out of the process.

No Brexiter and few others asserted that the referendum result was only "advisory"

It was touted as a straight, all or nothing "get over it" victory.

We were promised a "red, white and blue Brexit".  Zilch about due regard to the wishes of the 48%  in formulating a departure from the EU.

It was only thanks to Gina Miller that Theresa May was forced by our own Supreme Court to have a HC vote on triggering Art. 50.  Miller (criminally) and our own judges were horribly villified and treated as traitors for asserting Parliamentary democracy over the executive, following an "advisory" referendum.

It is therefore a real satisfaction to see some acceptance now of this principle of British Constitutional law.

However the Government hypocrisy now is that after years of "it's the Will of the People", the Government has been arguing in court that the Referendum was "only advisory" and "not binding".  Because had it been binding, the referendum would have been voided due to the illegalities of the Leave Campaign.  

For me I am very happy with Parliamentary sovreignty.  IMO "Will of the People" is much more marginal than 52:48.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, February 21, 2019, 21:14:31
MPs voted overwhelmingly to invoke article 50. There is not a fucking chance in hell anyone voted on the basis of it being advisory. The government made it clear they would act on it and they did by invoking article 50.
Politics in this country is first past the post. It was to be expected the winners decision would be respected but that the losers would fight on.
The way this government have handled brexit is fucking disgraceful regardless of which side of the fence you come down on. The opposition have been even worse when it should not be possible.
May is managing to piss off everyone and Corbyn is as effective as Shaun close.
Expect a lot more shit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, February 21, 2019, 21:17:55
MPs voted overwhelmingly to invoke article 50. There is not a fucking chance in hell anyone voted on the basis of it being advisory. The government made it clear they would act on it and they did by invoking article 50.
Politics in this country is first past the post. It was to be expected the winners decision would be respected but that the losers would fight on.
The way this government have handled brexit is fucking disgraceful regardless of which side of the fence you come down on. The opposition have been even worse when it should not be possible.
May is managing to piss off everyone and Corbyn is as effective as Shaun close.
Expect a lot more shit.


Fuck me. Well said.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, February 21, 2019, 22:52:53
MPs voted overwhelmingly to invoke article 50. There is not a fucking chance in hell anyone voted on the basis of it being advisory. The government made it clear they would act on it and they did by invoking article 50.
Politics in this country is first past the post. It was to be expected the winners decision would be respected but that the losers would fight on.
The way this government have handled brexit is fucking disgraceful regardless of which side of the fence you come down on. The opposition have been even worse when it should not be possible.
May is managing to piss off everyone and Corbyn is as effective as Shaun close.
Expect a lot more shit.


Shaun Close... It would be harsh if it wasn't true...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, February 21, 2019, 23:00:10
Thats my take on it as well. As soon as article 50 is triggered it's game on - deal or no deal. They can, of course, withdraw article 50 and back as we were. The EU may allow us to extend article 50 but are under no obligation to do so. We're entering squeeky bum time.
I fully expect parliament to vote down Mays deal and not allow us to leave with no deal. Parliament to revoke article 50 and a general election.

At the mo, if parliament votes down May's deal we leave with no deal on the 29th March.  The only power parliament then has is to cancel Article 50. An extension of it needs EU approval, and why would they agree to that?

I guess either a No Deal vs Staying in referendum or a general election may get the EU to extend Article 50...of course, they may just tell us to do one.

It's a bloody mess, no matter what else you are on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, February 21, 2019, 23:08:31
I just accidentally attempted to report my own post...and was prevented from doing so.  Not even Shaun Close would have done that.  He is unfairly maligned.  Corbyn and TM not so much.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, February 21, 2019, 23:20:59
Shaun Close... It would be harsh if it wasn't true...

I did see him score after 40 seconds once, though.  Doesn't really help with your point, I know.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, February 21, 2019, 23:33:07
I did see him score after 40 seconds once, though.  Doesn't really help with your point, I know.
That was away to the scum and the goalie fucked up. Take 100,000 shots you might score 1.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, February 22, 2019, 00:02:27
That was away to the scum and the goalie fucked up. Take 100,000 shots you might score 1.

AKA Andy Cole.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DiV on Friday, February 22, 2019, 00:13:10
AKA Andy Cole.

Yeah, he only scored 267 career goals.

That’s a lot of shots


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: FreddySTFC! on Friday, February 22, 2019, 08:08:15
I did see him score after 40 seconds once, though.  Doesn't really help with your point, I know.
Shaun Close would be a good one for Rich to interview on Loathed Strangers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, February 22, 2019, 08:53:10
Yeah, he only scored 267 career goals.

That’s a lot of shots


And missed how many? If he’d not played for Man U it would have been a fraction of that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, February 22, 2019, 09:03:19
Shaun Close would be a good one for Rich to interview on Loathed Strangers.

Paul Hunt probably be easier to get hold of


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 22, 2019, 09:54:27
And missed how many? If he’d not played for Man U it would have been a fraction of that.
Ha ha ha ha. You're reaching new heights now, even for you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, February 22, 2019, 09:55:37
Ha ha ha ha. You're reaching new heights now, even for you.

So pleased I bring you so much happiness and joy 😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 22, 2019, 14:05:38
Oops:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/22/rubbish-spot-london-council-mocked-for-placement-of-brexit-posters

:)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, February 22, 2019, 19:12:21
Another one bites the dust.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Monday, February 25, 2019, 10:59:39
Quote
Thanks Reading Red. Will you post the reasoning for us?

Nothing yet, but the legal counsel for the applicant is on James O'Brien n LBC now, explaining why the referendum has been found to be illegal.
Interesting listening.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, February 25, 2019, 12:08:23
Appreciated.  Unfortunately missed it but will see if I can re-run the show. I'm truly flummoxed as to why the case received such truly minimal publicity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 25, 2019, 12:38:37
They are only local results and thus you often don't get to understand the nuances which lead to abnormalities, but there are some proper huge swings in vote showing up in local elections at the moment with the Tories and Labour taking a kicking in many areas, interesting times ahead I suspect once a GE rolls up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Monday, February 25, 2019, 16:13:22
Appreciated.  Unfortunately missed it but will see if I can re-run the show. I'm truly flummoxed as to why the case received such truly minimal publicity.

Here's the LBC Interview with the QC: https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/brexit-referendum-corruptly-won-but-result-stands/ (https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/brexit-referendum-corruptly-won-but-result-stands/)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, February 25, 2019, 21:19:24
Game changer from Labour?

Jeremy Corbyn: we’ll back a public vote to stop Tory Brexit (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/25/labour-to-back-moves-for-second-brexit-referendum)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, February 25, 2019, 21:54:18
or too little too late?

How do they propose to force that into play? May won't bat an eyelid


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 26, 2019, 09:54:12
or too little too late?

How do they propose to force that into play? May won't bat an eyelid

I suppose that with the Labour votes plus the Tory remainers it means that we are closer to a majority for second ref, although not sure what the figures are like, looks like the Ind Group achieved more in little over a week than expected, the polling was looking interesting...

YouGov yesterday...

Labour: 23%
The Independent Group: 18%

However I still suspect its a con from Labour as Milne wants to leave, the cynci suspects that this 2nd ref move is designed to deliberately spook more Lab MPs in Leave areas into blocking/abstaining Cooper + backing May's deal. JC gets to say he has tried to implement party policy, but Brexit still happens.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Tuesday, February 26, 2019, 10:10:36
One thing to note whenever they publish their polls, Yougov are an outlier.  Where a month ago every other poll had labour level or in the lead Yougov had the tories 6 point ahead.  There will have been a big effect on the labour vote but Yougov always poll labour and the lib dems very much lower than every other poll.

Also, the conference motion was to put forward the alternative labour Brexit plan and if that was rejected all other things were open including a second ref.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 26, 2019, 10:36:36
One thing to note whenever they publish their polls, Yougov are an outlier.  Where a month ago every other poll had labour level or in the lead Yougov had the tories 6 point ahead.  There will have been a big effect on the labour vote but Yougov always poll labour and the lib dems very much lower than every other poll.

Also, the conference motion was to put forward the alternative labour Brexit plan and if that was rejected all other things were open including a second ref.

Don't disagree about the peculiarities of YouGov, but one would expect the variances that affect the Lib Dems and Lab would be similar for TIG as it sits similarly on the overall political spectrum.

Whatever way one looks at it to be sitting that close to a non-party (other polls are showing similar if not so extreme) is a little embarrassing and when one also takes into account the swings against Labour which have been happening in a lot of locals (similar to the Tories who are in power and buggering up the country so swings against are entirely normal in  this part of the election cycle) Magic Grandpa needed to do something although probably merely with smoke and mirrors as usual.   


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, February 26, 2019, 10:49:03
One thing to note whenever they publish their polls, Yougov are an outlier.  Where a month ago every other poll had labour level or in the lead Yougov had the tories 6 point ahead.  There will have been a big effect on the labour vote but Yougov always poll labour and the lib dems very much lower than every other poll.

Also, the conference motion was to put forward the alternative labour Brexit plan and if that was rejected all other things were open including a second ref.

Yes. I'm going to have to think about this... not in favour of a second ref.

Back in Nov, I flagged up John McDonnell thoughts on the matter....

Quote
Interesting from McDonnell today.... his take over the coming weeks, is that MP's will vote down May's deal, but there will not be a GE, due to turkeys not voting for Christmas, and given Cameron's sleight of hand on fixed terms, they have to vote for one.

 There then might be some tweaks to May's deal, but it will have to go to a second ref, where the question will be May's deal or Remain.

 No deal, not being a realistic option as it will tank the economy.

Looks about right...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, February 26, 2019, 11:38:44
While we’re on the subject of polling, Prof John Curtice on the Today Programme this morning made the interesting point that polling on the question of May’s Deal vs No Brexit came out consistently in favour of No Brexit, with approx 53% vote share in favour of No Brexit.  (As an aside, polling for No Deal vs No Brexit was even more emphatically in favour of No Brexit.)  Interestingly, the majority for No Brexit was, according to the Prof, not because of voters having changed their minds - but because the older generation was passing on and younger voters, who favour No Brexit by a margin of more than 2:1, are joining the electoral roll to replace them.

This is interesting, of course, because over the medium term the effect is likely to continue, increasing the majority for No Brexit.  There will come a point, surely, where a policy of leaving will look increasingly at odds with the prevailing ‘will of the people’ – which, I suspect, is why Leave supporting politicians and supporters are keen to get the process over the line as quickly as possible.  The longer the process takes, the less likely it is to happen at all.  In a few years from now, it will be easy for opponents of Brexit (whether it has happened by then or not) to characterise it as a niche movement favoured by an increasingly ageing sector of the population.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, February 26, 2019, 11:41:17
Here's the LBC Interview with the QC: https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/brexit-referendum-corruptly-won-but-result-stands/ (https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/brexit-referendum-corruptly-won-but-result-stands/)
 Thanks again.

Liked Simor's tour de france analogy.  Extending it would see Lance Armstrong remain a winner for finishing first.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 26, 2019, 11:54:58
While we’re on the subject of polling, Prof John Curtice on the Today Programme this morning made the interesting point that polling on the question of May’s Deal vs No Brexit came out consistently in favour of No Brexit, with approx 53% vote share in favour of No Brexit.  (As an aside, polling for No Deal vs No Brexit was even more emphatically in favour of No Brexit.)  Interestingly, the majority for No Brexit was, according to the Prof, not because of voters having changed their minds - but because the older generation was passing on and younger voters, who favour No Brexit by a margin of more than 2:1, are joining the electoral roll to replace them.

This is interesting, of course, because over the medium term the effect is likely to continue, increasing the majority for No Brexit.  There will come a point, surely, where a policy of leaving will look increasingly at odds with the prevailing ‘will of the people’ – which, I suspect, is why Leave supporting politicians and supporters are keen to get the process over the line as quickly as possible.  The longer the process takes, the less likely it is to happen at all.  In a few years from now, it will be easy for opponents of Brexit (whether it has happened by then or not) to characterise it as a niche movement favoured by an increasingly ageing sector of the population.

Cannot be bothered to trawl the internet to find it, but there was a date reasonably recently where based on demographics of population and Brexit vote split that it could be mathematically shown that based on natural wastage and voters turning 18 the balance would have naturally tipped.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, February 26, 2019, 12:24:01
Cannot be bothered to trawl the internet to find it, but there was a date reasonably recently where based on demographics of population and Brexit vote split that it could be mathematically shown that based on natural wastage and voters turning 18 the balance would have naturally tipped.

All that stuff is bollocks... the 16 ref was a snap shot at the time, so for example only 50% of eligible 18-34 year olds could be bothered to vote, who's to know if the other 50% would bother this time and if so how they'd swing.  Of the 16 year olds in 16 now coming on tap, who's to know if they'll be any more motivated, or how they'll vote?

Although the Brexiteers campaign has been, not unexpectedly given the personnel, a complete clusterfuck, the EU hasn't exactly covered itself in glory. 

Again not unexpected as it is a flawed organisation.... so let's imagine you're 18 when a second ref happens, at a time when Trump is pissing over nuclear arms treaties, Putin is showing on RTV targets for warhead strikes and India and Pakistan are invoved in a conflict over Kashmir.

The US insistence that Europe talkes up responsiblity for it's own defence, means that an EU army becomes necessary... the Tory press point out that some form of EU national service... S Korean and Hueng Min Son style is being considered where are you putting your 18 year old cross?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, February 26, 2019, 12:49:30
May trying to head off Wednesday "take no deal off the table" vote by promising a similar vote should her vote not go through in March 12th

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47373996

Can kicking has to stop Parliament, in the words of the green clever one - do or do not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dogs on Tuesday, February 26, 2019, 12:56:48
What I find hard to understand is why the EU would contemplate letting us remain on the current terms as we hold now anyhow. Appears pretty bloody arrogant if you ask me.

Every gaping wound in society has been more or less opened up and we've shown exactly who, what and where we current exist as a nation.

Remain should be an option, but to join Schengen, commit to joining the Euro and no rebate.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, February 26, 2019, 13:07:44
What I find hard to understand is why the EU would contemplate letting us remain on the current terms as we hold now anyhow. Appears pretty bloody arrogant if you ask me.

They don't have a choice in the matter

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/revoking-article-50-after-the-ecjs-ruling/

Quote
The ECJ also confirmed that, should the UK remain owing to such a revocation, it would be ‘under terms that are unchanged’ (paras 74, 75). This means that the UK could remain in the EU without making any concessions for doing so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 26, 2019, 13:11:03
May trying to head off Wednesday "take o deal off the table" vote by promising a similar vote should her vote not go through in March 12th

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47373996

Can kicking has to stop Parliament, in the words of the green clever one - do or do not.

And Corbyn only supports 2nd ref on basis of Mays deal passing, so that's unlikely to happen....

(https://www.retrosweets.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/f/i/finger-of-fudge.jpg)

As for can kicking it can only really last until 1st July http://politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/02/21/the-real-brexit-cliff-edge-is-not-on-march-29th-it-s-july-1s

Watching May in the house I can only conclude that she has serious mental problems or is genuinely a bit evil!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 26, 2019, 17:22:11
Further to the above....

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/02/26/may-s-article-50-extension-is-a-trick-to-take-us-to-the-real


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 27, 2019, 09:57:04
So another day in paradise has passed. Thing is, when will MP's bloody well learn.... The pattern is so predictable.

1) MPs decide ‘enough is enough’ and threaten to do something
2) May ‘concedes’ just enough to persuade them it’s OK
3) The MPs drop their threat/withdraw their bill
4) May breaks her promise and doesn’t do what she said she would.
Repeat ad nauseam

Good to see further government impact papers have been obtained, although once again the government did their damnedest to avoid the public and our elected representatives seeing them...  https://twitter.com/37paday/status/1100537973077090304

The thing is, as Mrs May and others keep telling us No Deal is better than a Bad Deal, just how sodding bad is Mrs May's deal?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, February 27, 2019, 10:24:39
The thing is, as Mrs May and others keep telling us No Deal is better than a Bad Deal, just how sodding bad is Mrs May's deal?

As bizarre as it may seem, at the time of the ref, it was pointed out that there would be a "short/medium term" hit to GDP.

Time scale wasn't really talked about, but people voted for it anyway.  With no deal, we take the hit, but do make the contribution savings, in return for losing a voice. With May's deal we'll take a slightly smaller hit, still pay contributions and also lose the voice.   Brexit was essentially a right wing coup... its true believers don't want some sort of fudge.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, February 27, 2019, 11:09:10
As bizarre as it may seem, at the time of the ref, it was pointed out that there would be a "short/medium term" hit to GDP.

Time scale wasn't really talked about, but people voted for it anyway.  With no deal, we take the hit, but do make the contribution savings, in return for losing a voice. With May's deal we'll take a slightly smaller hit, still pay contributions and also lose the voice.   Brexit was essentially a right wing coup... its true believers don't want some sort of fudge.

No one who voted for Brexit wanted a fudge, the option was leave everyting EU and that won.
Its not a right wing coup, many labour voters supported it. Renaming a democratic vote a right wing coup gives no validity to its over throw by hard left and self interest groups. A coup is taking control by a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power, not a referendum. Yes we all know the elite will overthrow the vote but at that point the UK will cease being a democracy. After that you have no say and no voice and in a few years your children's children will make up the front line cannon fodder of the new unified invasion force.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 27, 2019, 11:21:40
No one who voted for Brexit wanted a fudge, the option was leave everyting EU and that won.
Its not a right wing coup, many labour voters supported it. Renaming a democratic vote a right wing coup gives no validity to its over throw by hard left and self interest groups. A coup is taking control by a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power, not a referendum. Yes we all know the elite will overthrow the vote but at that point the UK will cease being a democracy. After that you have no say and no voice and in a few years your children's children will make up the front line cannon fodder of the new unified invasion force.

I think the democratic bit was soured a bit when it became clear that there were all maner of discrepancies and funding issues, strange its not been debated on here and generally ignored in the wider media, but this is actually quite funny if it were not so serious...

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...t-referendum-corruptly-won-but-result-stands/

TL-DR - The courts found that the EU referendum was won based on a corrupt campaign, but the courts can't void the result because the referendum was only advisory, despite Theresa May and all Eexiteers not treating the result as thus.... May's own QC in court admitted that she knows the result is non-binding and corrupt but is ploughing ahead possibly because a) she doesn't like people who don't talk or look like her (not commenting on Eexiteers generally but Mrs May is undoubtedly a xenophobic nutcase, see her previous hits at the Home Office) or b) it will make Mr May very very rich (although obviously he will continue to not pay tax on his earnings, that would be silly) or c) Rees-Mogg was with her in the wheat field and has pictures.

P.S. Could you remind me who the EU are planning to invade, I seem to have missed that bit? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, February 27, 2019, 11:32:26
A coup is taking control by a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power, not a referendum.

Subsequent events have shown that the Leave campaign employed illegal methods not only in funding by Putin, but in the illegal use of data obtained by Cambridge Analyical, therefore a coup, not necessarily an old style coup involving generals etc, but a very British Coup.

Your paranoia about EU armies etc is just that.... I used it as an example recently, of how easy it would be for the right wing media to use as scare tactic in a second ref.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 27, 2019, 11:51:33
It's not a coup in any traditional sense of the word. Nor on the other hand as is becoming increasingly clear was it very democratic in the manner that underhand and illegal methods were used to secure the victory. So probably half way between the two, a coup-lite perhaps?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, February 27, 2019, 12:01:00
It's not a coup in any traditional sense of the word. Nor on the other hand as is becoming increasingly clear was it very democratic in the manner that underhand and illegal methods were used to secure the victory. So probably half way between the two, a coup-lite perhaps?

More of coup than a putsch.... although the Beer Hall Putsch of 1923, is probably something Brexiteers would hope revisit as the Wetherspoon's Putsch of 2019, if Brexit is delayed by a few weeks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 27, 2019, 13:02:28
More of coup than a putsch.... although the Beer Hall Putsch of 1923, is probably something Brexiteers would hope revisit as the Wetherspoon's Putsch of 2019, if Brexit is delayed by a few weeks.
Maybe Teresa's trying for one last putsch to get it over the line? :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 09:40:31
£16,700 Tsk, Tsk.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 10:08:29
Corbyn now building a consensus across parliament for a soft Brexit, in anticipation of May's deal being voted down again next week.  Knowing this, I think there has to be a very strong chance that the ERG faction in the Tory party caves in and ends up voting for the deal that they've campaigned against for so long.  It's a big gamble for them, relying on a No Deal outcome - that just about everyone else will mobilise against - going through.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 11:21:31
Corbyn now building a consensus across parliament for a soft Brexit, in anticipation of May's deal being voted down again next week.  Knowing this, I think there has to be a very strong chance that the ERG faction in the Tory party caves in and ends up voting for the deal that they've campaigned against for so long.  It's a big gamble for them, relying on a No Deal outcome - that just about everyone else will mobilise against - going through.

Well it looks like Tuesday vote, is going to point out the end game here... fuck knows, how things will pan out.  I think it is important though that people realise, this will rumble on for years.  We've had the easy bit up until now.... negotiating a new deal with the EU and other countries from a position of weakness, is going to cause major problems.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 11:46:47
I'm beginning to think the ERG will shit themselves and vote through whatever May comes back with.

But as you say, that's just a prelude to the main event. A transition period would start an 18 month/2 year clock ticking - and we've done so well negotiating in that timeframe so far.

FUBAR.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 11:58:14
I think it is important though that people realise, this will rumble on for years.  We've had the easy bit up until now.... negotiating a new deal with the EU and other countries from a position of weakness, is going to cause major problems.
Spot on. If people think the past two years has been hard work, this has just been the negotiations on how we leave. We have yet to start on defining the future relationship with the EU, that will be much harder, especially now the EU realise we are actually quite crap at it. We've got at least a decade of this shit rumbling on and on


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 12:01:13
I'm beginning to think the ERG will shit themselves and vote through whatever May comes back with.

But as you say, that's just a prelude to the main event. A transition period would start an 18 month/2 year clock ticking - and we've done so well negotiating in that timeframe so far.

FUBAR.

This is when reality will finally dawn that the Leave prospectus was built on a pack of lies.  When the myth of British exceptionalism will finally die, when our status at the upper end of the international pecking order will end and when the realisation that we'd made a horrible mistake will set in.  How the country will react to that is anyone's guess, but it won't be pretty.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 12:28:09
This is when reality will finally dawn that the Leave prospectus was built on a pack of lies.  When the myth of British exceptionalism will finally die, when our status at the upper end of the international pecking order will end and when the realisation that we'd made a horrible mistake will set in. 
It won't, though. The SRKs and Legends-Lounges will just insist that "Brexit has been betrayed by the elite" and lurch yet further to the right as they seek out scapegoats for this new reality they won't want to confront


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 12:59:14
It won't, though. The SRKs and Legends-Lounges will just insist that "Brexit has been betrayed by the elite" and lurch yet further to the right as they seek out scapegoats for this new reality they won't want to confront
And SRK and Legends-Lounge would have every right to feel that without automatically shifting to the right. The two are not intrinsically linked other than for a very small minority. Don't forget how many Labour voters voted Leave.
There appears to be a presumption that the EU will actually let us extend Article 50. If I was them I wouldn't. I'd force us to no deal or revoke Article 50.
I still think people are struggling to disaggregate leaving the EU with the total fucking shambles we've made of it. A different negotiating stance may well have driven different outcomes. One of many fuck ups was working on the basis the EU would come to the table. The didn't have to and there should have been no expectation of it. We want to leave, over to us. That meant no deal from day 1. Planning should have been done before Article 50 was triggered and we actually had a negotiating strategy based on us walking. Farage should have been put in charge of negotiations with the EU..
There is a sense of betrayal but I expected it.  From day 1 instead of confidently facing off to the EU with a clear no deal plan and a figurehead like Farage all we've done is have May sideline our Brexit secretaries and beg the EU for a deal. How many times can they tell us to fuck off....and quite rightly.
For Leavers there will be a sense of what could have been. Whether it was good or bad would play out over time. The EU will now have carte blanche to quicken the move to the United States of Europe which Macron would be very happy with.
Personally, I'd revoke Article 50 now. We've still got a lot of our own shit to sort out before we can seriously face off to the EU. I'd rather Remain for now than put through May's deal but despite everything that has been written, no deal for me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: reeves4england on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 13:06:29
There appears to be a presumption that the EU will actually let us extend Article 50. If I was them I wouldn't. I'd force us to no deal or revoke Article 50.
I still think people are struggling to disaggregate leaving the EU with the total fucking shambles we've made of it. A different negotiating stance may well have driven different outcomes. One of many fuck ups was working on the basis the EU would come to the table. The didn't have to and there should have been no expectation of it. We want to leave, over to us. That meant no deal from day 1. Planning should have been done before Article 50 was triggered and we actually had a negotiating strategy based on us walking. Farage should have been put in charge of negotiations with the EU..
There is a sense of betrayal but I expected it.  From day 1 instead of confidently facing off to the EU with a clear no deal plan and a figurehead like Farage all we've done is have May sideline our Brexit secretaries and beg the EU for a deal. How many times can they tell us to fuck off....and quite rightly.
For Leavers there will be a sense of what could have been. Whether it was good or bad would play out over time. The EU will now have carte blanche to quicken the move to the United States of Europe which Macron would be very happy with.
Personally, I'd revoke Article 50 now. We've still got a lot of our own shit to sort out before we can seriously face off to the EU. I'd rather Remain for now than put through May's deal but despite everything that has been written, no deal for me.
Agree with all of this... except the Farage bit as I feel he'd swing totally the other way from May (i.e. bull in a china shop) when a smarter and more nuanced approach is what has been needed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 13:15:42
And SRK and Legends-Lounge would have every right to feel that without automatically shifting to the right. The two are not intrinsically linked other than for a very small minority. Don't forget how many Labour voters voted Leave.
There appears to be a presumption that the EU will actually let us extend Article 50. If I was them I wouldn't. I'd force us to no deal or revoke Article 50.
I still think people are struggling to disaggregate leaving the EU with the total fucking shambles we've made of it. A different negotiating stance may well have driven different outcomes. One of many fuck ups was working on the basis the EU would come to the table. The didn't have to and there should have been no expectation of it. We want to leave, over to us. That meant no deal from day 1. Planning should have been done before Article 50 was triggered and we actually had a negotiating strategy based on us walking. Farage should have been put in charge of negotiations with the EU..
There is a sense of betrayal but I expected it.  From day 1 instead of confidently facing off to the EU with a clear no deal plan and a figurehead like Farage all we've done is have May sideline our Brexit secretaries and beg the EU for a deal.
But that's not "betrayal by the elite", that's betrayal by the fuckwits who advocated Leave with absolutely no plan as to how they would do that. And that includes Farage, he's every bit as full of piss and wind as the rest of them. No-one could have made this work because there was no plan as to how it could be achieved from the outset. That's where the betrayal lies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 13:19:06
Agree with all of this... except the Farage bit as I feel he'd swing totally the other way from May (i.e. bull in a china shop) when a smarter and more nuanced approach is what has been needed.
It would have been the best declaration of intent though. Behind the scenes would be where the smarter and more nuanced approach could have taken place.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 13:19:52
And SRK and Legends-Lounge would have every right to feel that without automatically shifting to the right. The two are not intrinsically linked other than for a very small minority. Don't forget how many Labour voters voted Leave.
There appears to be a presumption that the EU will actually let us extend Article 50. If I was them I wouldn't. I'd force us to no deal or revoke Article 50.
I still think people are struggling to disaggregate leaving the EU with the total fucking shambles we've made of it. A different negotiating stance may well have driven different outcomes. One of many fuck ups was working on the basis the EU would come to the table. The didn't have to and there should have been no expectation of it. We want to leave, over to us. That meant no deal from day 1. Planning should have been done before Article 50 was triggered and we actually had a negotiating strategy based on us walking. Farage should have been put in charge of negotiations with the EU..
There is a sense of betrayal but I expected it.  From day 1 instead of confidently facing off to the EU with a clear no deal plan and a figurehead like Farage all we've done is have May sideline our Brexit secretaries and beg the EU for a deal. How many times can they tell us to fuck off....and quite rightly.
For Leavers there will be a sense of what could have been. Whether it was good or bad would play out over time. The EU will now have carte blanche to quicken the move to the United States of Europe which Macron would be very happy with.
Personally, I'd revoke Article 50 now. We've still got a lot of our own shit to sort out before we can seriously face off to the EU. I'd rather Remain for now than put through May's deal but despite everything that has been written, no deal for me.

Great post.  Agree with a lot of it - and especially the bit in bold.  I'd concede that even as someone who still, on balance, favours Remain.

You could well be right that the only way to leave the EU cleanly would be to have aimed for No Deal from the outset.  It would be fascinating to see how that would have played out if we could wind the clock back and replay the last 3 yrs.

But I doubt that that course of action could ever have got off the ground.  Seeing how implacably parliament is opposed to No Deal, I'm not sure how such a strategy could have survived more than a few weeks if May decided to go with it in 2016.  I think that she knew from the outset that a 52% vote in favour of leaving did not give her a mandate to proceed with a No Deal exit.  Had the vote been 65%+ in favour of leaving, the strategy could have been rather different.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 13:22:20
But that's not "betrayal by the elite", that's betrayal by the fuckwits who advocated Leave with absolutely no plan as to how they would do that. And that includes Farage, he's every bit as full of piss and wind as the rest of them. No-one could have made this work because there was no plan as to how it could be achieved from the outset. That's where the betrayal lies.
When May sidelines everyone other than a couple of non elected civil servants then how the fuck could JRM etc influence her. Farage has never been in a position of power - he wasn't even part of the official leave campaign.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 13:23:28
It would have been the best declaration of intent though. Behind the scenes would be where the smarter and more nuanced approach could have taken place.
It would have been a good way to hold the charlatan to account for his own doings but wouldn't have solved the basic problem - there never was a plan as to how Brexit could be achieved and there still isn't. This is why we are in this mess, not because we had the wrong figurehead.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 13:24:09
When May sidelines everyone other than a couple of non elected civil servants then how the fuck could JRM etc influence her. Farage has never been in a position of power - he wasn't even part of the official leave campaign.
Jesus, you actually want JRM in charge? Seriously?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 13:38:43
Jesus, you actually want JRM in charge? Seriously?
No, what I'm saying is that none of the leavers have had any influence over May and her inner sanctum so whether they had a plan her not is a mute point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 13:43:27
No, what I'm saying is that none of the leavers have had any influence over May and her inner sanctum so whether they had a plan her not is a mute point.

Spot on. Fact is the process has been managed largely by from the start people who wanted to remain-including civil servants.

The whole thing isn’t really complicated- FTA like say canada. The only reason we haven’t had it is because of the EUs sheer intrangence.

In the EUs eyes this is all about making an example of us to ensure no others follow suit. It has no thought to the people of Europe at all


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 14:03:04
No, what I'm saying is that none of the leavers have had any influence over May and her inner sanctum so whether they had a plan her not is a mute point.
Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Liam Fox, David Davis, Dominic Raab are or were all key leaders of the Leave campaign and were all members of the cabinet charged with implementing Brexit. They had plenty of influence, just not a fucking clue what to do with it because they never had a plan to implement


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 14:17:55
The majority of the cabinet are remainers, which gives the leavers little influence which is played out in the wider Parliament.
Taking a step back, Gideon and the pig fucker should have had a plan in the event of leave, other than them fucking off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 14:28:40
The majority of the cabinet are remainers, which gives the leavers little influence which is played out in the wider Parliament.
Oh behave, the leavers had plenty of influence if they'd chosen to use it. They could have "taken control" (as they like to say),  given direction and even (gasp) tried to actually formulate a plan. Instead they squandered it on combinations of self-promotion, futile plots and gesture resignations when they realised they'd bitten off more than they could chew. Or simply floundered in their own incompetence, repeating their saving mantra "At least I'm better than Grayling"
Taking a step back, Gideon and the pig fucker should have had a plan in the event of leave, other than them fucking off.
Absolutely, they are every bit as responsible and should be tried in the same court as Johnson et al. Their crass arrogance has fucked us all royally. But that doesn't excuse the leavers for selling a dream they had no idea how to implement (or even if it could be) or alter the fact that they did so. Which was my point - if Brexit has been "betrayed" it has been betrayed by it's own architects. Their lies and incompetence are what have undone Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 15:21:19
Spot on. Fact is the process has been managed largely by from the start people who wanted to remain-including civil servants.

The whole thing isn’t really complicated- FTA like say canada. The only reason we haven’t had it is because of the EUs sheer intrangence.

In the EUs eyes this is all about making an example of us to ensure no others follow suit. It has no thought to the people of Europe at all

That trade deal took something like 10 years!  There is the problem - the only exit possible is/was Hard!  The only thing worth negotiating when handing in our notice was the payments needed.  Then, crack on with figuring out a new trade deal/relationship with the EU.  Why the fuck should the EU give two hoots to what the UK wants in life when they are working on the divorce?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 15:30:11
That trade deal took something like 10 years!  There is the problem - the only exit possible is/was Hard!  The only thing worth negotiating when handing in our notice was the payments needed.  Then, crack on with figuring out a new trade deal/relationship with the EU.  Why the fuck should the EU give two hoots to what the UK wants in life when they are working on the divorce?
Yep. And the payments needed should also include any tally of assets earned during our membership as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 15:36:12
The majority of the cabinet are remainers, which gives the leavers little influence which is played out in the wider Parliament.


That's bollocks, one of the main reasons we have so many useless pricks in cabinet at the moment has been the need for May to balance it out between remainers and Eexiteers to stop them bitching about each other, hence why each time an Eexiteer has flounced off in a huff they have been replaced by an even more incompetent one! Fuck sake the poster boys of Brexit were holding high level cabinet posts for years and achieved sweet FA before they scurried away.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 15:37:35
That trade deal took something like 10 years!  There is the problem - the only exit possible is/was Hard!  The only thing worth negotiating when handing in our notice was the payments needed.  Then, crack on with figuring out a new trade deal/relationship with the EU.  Why the fuck should the EU give two hoots to what the UK wants in life when they are working on the divorce?

Look on the bright side, in three weeks time we could be the only country in the whole world without  a trade deal with anyone!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 15:40:31
Spot on. Fact is the process has been managed largely by from the start people who wanted to remain-including civil servants.

The whole thing isn’t really complicated- FTA like say canada. The only reason we haven’t had it is because of the EUs sheer intrangence.

In the EUs eyes this is all about making an example of us to ensure no others follow suit. It has no thought to the people of Europe at all

I think the problem here is that it is enormously complicated.  As RobT says, it took Canada 10 yrs to negotiate their deal.  Then add in that the UK is not Canada - and that our economy is and always will be far more interwoven with the rest of Europe than Canada’s - and I think it becomes obvious fairly quickly that the Canada approach is not the silver bullet that some would like it to be.

It isn’t because we have the wrong leader or figurehead.  I genuinely believe that all of this comes down to the 'realpolitik' that we need the EU far more than the EU needs us - which, of course, is the precise opposite of the view taken by those advocating a hard Brexit.  Barnier has not been shuttling backwards & forwards to visit May in London for the last 3 yrs.  It’s May that has been shuttling to Barnier in Brussels...and I think that tells you everything about where the power & the leverage really lies.  In or out, we are always going to be stuck in the EU’s orbit.  That’s not because we’re weak or pathetic or anyone’s being defeatist, it’s simply because they’re on our doorstep and they outnumber us by 10 to 1 (or something like that).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 16:18:36
Look on the bright side, in three weeks time we could be the only country in the whole world without  a trade deal with anyone!

Fox negotiated one with the Faroe Islands.   They do still have some fishing related economic activity, despite a 1990's slump.

I guess it's a solidarity move by the Faroese, as like Iceland they're not in the EU.

I'd imagine it might attract some tourism from Brexiteers as result....  you know the type who now want to boycott cars and produce etc from the EU or beyond, because they'e not British.   

Reminds me of the mid 60's I'm Backing Britain campaign... (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQTSR24BOAGVe3OrUur-2jIcxLkur1enbqu_aq_gc-ofbvj0vgFhg)

the economy was fucked due to crises like Suez and the collapse of Empire, National Service had just been phased out, defence spending was 10%, and the British worker was still paying off war debt to the USA.

It was hoped that by buying British goods, it might stimulate the economy, floundering as the joining of the EU (Common Market) had twice been vetoed by France.

It didn't... that didn't happen until we joined the EU


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 17:21:04
Fox negotiated one with the Faroe Islands.   They do still have some fishing related economic activity, despite a 1990's slump.

I guess it's a solidarity move by the Faroese, as like Iceland they're not in the EU.

I'd imagine it might attract some tourism from Brexiteers as result....  you know the type who now want to boycott cars and produce etc from the EU or beyond, because they'e not British.   

Reminds me of the mid 60's I'm Backing Britain campaign... (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQTSR24BOAGVe3OrUur-2jIcxLkur1enbqu_aq_gc-ofbvj0vgFhg)

the economy was fucked due to crises like Suez and the collapse of Empire, National Service had just been phased out, defence spending was 10%, and the British worker was still paying off war debt to the USA.

It was hoped that by buying British goods, it might stimulate the economy, floundering as the joining of the EU (Common Market) had twice been vetoed by France.

It didn't... that didn't happen until we joined the EU

Realistically, how much 'British' goods do people in this country buy these days? Strawberries whenever Wimbledon is on? Union Jacks whenever there is a Royal Wedding?

I am being flippant of course and I am sure there are loads of things we do well (linguistines just popped into my head) but in my head the list is pretty short.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 17:33:43
Realistically, how much 'British' goods do people in this country buy these days? Strawberries whenever Wimbledon is on? Union Jacks whenever there is a Royal Wedding?

I am being flippant of course and I am sure there are loads of things we do well (linguistines just popped into my head) but in my head the list is pretty short.

(http://cdntbs.astonmartin.com/images/cars/vanquish-s-coupe.jpg)

This is one of the problems with Brexit, relative to it's previous status, manufacturing in the UK is small.  Hence why the likes of Johnson and other Tories like JRM don't give too much of a shit for small businesses and widget makers. Their concern is finance and services... where they and fellow Brexiteers make their money.

Not too much to worry about for them as The City has already cut a deal with the EU, tpo protect their class.

https://www.businessinsider.com/city-of-london-eu-uk-brexit-negotiators-agree-financial-services-deal-2018-11?r=US&IR=T


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 17:44:10
Hi. Resident Nazi here.

Still delightful to see PaulD crying in to his cornflakes over Brexit. It’s the only thing I look forward to seeing on this site.

If we flipped a vote because one side told a porky pie, we’d be forever stuck in an endless circulation of elections and referendums. Remain don’t get a pass on this one either...

The best scenario is without question a ‘no deal’ for the exit negotiations. Those pesky IRA supporting leprechauns are determined to give Britain a hard time, I say bollocks to them. A no deal would be disastrous for them without support from the UK. Let’s give those Brit haters both barrels.

Hey Paul, who wins in the battle of Muslim school mums vs gays? 😂 I love it when nuances of the left devours themselves.

Chow (Roman salute)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 18:58:23
Hi. Resident Nazi here.

Still delightful to see PaulD crying in to his cornflakes over Brexit. It’s the only thing I look forward to seeing on this site.

If we flipped a vote because one side told a porky pie, we’d be forever stuck in an endless circulation of elections and referendums. Remain don’t get a pass on this one either...

The best scenario is without question a ‘no deal’ for the exit negotiations. Those pesky IRA supporting leprechauns are determined to give Britain a hard time, I say bollocks to them. A no deal would be disastrous for them without support from the UK. Let’s give those Brit haters both barrels.


Hey Paul, who wins in the battle of Muslim school mums vs gays? 😂 I love it when nuances of the left devours themselves.

Chow (Roman salute)



Love this post. Made my day.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 19:52:26
Haha that twat Yaxley-Lennon is facing new contempt proceedings


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 21:02:43

Hey Paul, who wins in the battle of Muslim school mums vs gays? 😂 I love it when nuances of the left devours themselves.

Assuming you're referring to this:
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/jan/31/school-defends-lgbt-lessons-after-religious-parents-complain

No nuances at all, not even a contest - against the bigots every time, whether their bigotry stems from politics or religion. Not seen anyone on "the left" stand up for the bigots on that, btw, just lots of right wingers assuming there's a clash because it confuses their world view. HTH.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 21:13:12
Since when did belonging to a religion that wasn't the CoE denomination make someone left wing anyway?  I'd hardly call somewhere like Saudi Arabia "liberal" for example.  Not entirely sure sexual orientation has much to do with it either - Portillo was a right wing nut job at times (oddly, I like him since he left politics).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 21:15:01
Since when did belonging to a religion that wasn't the CoE denomination make someone left wing anyway?  I'd hardly call somewhere like Saudi Arabia "liberal" for example.  Not entirely sure sexual orientation has much to do with it either - Portillo was a right wing nut job at times (oddly, I like him since he left politics).
It hasn't, it's just the far right hate Muslims and gays so assume that the left must love both, irrespective, since they label anyone who opposes them as a "commie". They're not renowned for the subtlety of their thought.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, March 7, 2019, 21:16:32
Islamic Fundamentalists probably have a lot more in common with the BNP than many other groups.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 8, 2019, 07:51:27
Islamic Fundamentalists probably have a lot more in common with the BNP than many other groups.
Indeed, two sides of the same coin


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Friday, March 8, 2019, 08:58:43
Assuming you're referring to this:
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/jan/31/school-defends-lgbt-lessons-after-religious-parents-complain

No nuances at all, not even a contest - against the bigots every time, whether their bigotry stems from politics or religion. Not seen anyone on "the left" stand up for the bigots on that, btw, just lots of right wingers assuming there's a clash because it confuses their world view. HTH.

Calling Muslim mothers “bigots”. That’s not very liberal of you. Surely you have to respect their religious feelings? They are a minority after all, you have to stand up for these people! You can’t criticise their opinion if it comes directly from their holy book, you can’t tell them to ignore what their ‘prophet’ has taught them. I’m really disappointed you don’t respect their values.

For some reason it did amuse me that you chose an article from ‘the guardian’. Do you think the headline would have referred to “religious parents” if it were white Christians doing this? I think we both know the answer to that...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 8, 2019, 09:59:58
Indeed, two sides of the same coin

As bad and dangerous as each other, and need each other to justify their skewed views....

Plenty of evidence that right wing terrorism is much more of an issue in the UK at the moment than Islamic nutjobs, yet the usual suspects are very quiet on how to manage the issue of right wing radicalisation?

Likewise Tommeh Waxy-Lemon and his supporters like to make a big deal about  grooming, which rather hides the fact that a huge number of his closest supporters have paedophile convictions.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, March 8, 2019, 10:24:42
As bad and dangerous as each other, and need each other to justify their skewed views....

Plenty of evidence that right wing terrorism is much more of an issue in the UK at the moment than Islamic nutjobs, yet the usual suspects are very quiet on how to manage the issue of right wing radicalisation?

Likewise Tommeh Waxy-Lemon and his supporters like to make a big deal about  grooming, which rather hides the fact that a huge number of his closest supporters have paedophile convictions.....

Name the peadophiles who are Tommeh Waxy Lemons closest supporters then. Go on, post their names so we can all keep our children away from them. If not then did you just make that accusation up to fit your own political views. Evidence please. I don't support Waxy Lemmon in any way but if he's supported by Peado's. then that info is in the public interest!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 8, 2019, 10:29:16
Name the peadophiles who are Tommeh Waxy Lemons closest supporters then. Go on, post their names so we can all keep our children away from them. If not then did you just make that accusation up to fit your own political views. Evidence please. I don't support Waxy Lemmon in any way but if he's supported by Peado's. then that info is in the public interest!

JFGI (can you mange that?)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 8, 2019, 10:46:00
JFGI (can you mange that?)


I think SRK makes a reasonable request in the context of the debate...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 8, 2019, 10:55:57
Don't know about closest supporters but there were plenty of senior EDL figures with convictions for kiddy fiddling - their West Mids organiser and one of the founders Richard Price was jailed for kiddy porn and their MK organiser was jailed for raping an underage girl. Strangely "Tommy" didn't see the need to commit contempt of court outside their trials.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, March 8, 2019, 10:59:57
The Catholic church is probably the biggest pedo ring on the planet. It's odd that Tommy doesn't seem to be bothered about them. It's almost as though exposing pedos isn't his real motive.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, March 8, 2019, 11:03:20
Name the peadophiles who are Tommeh Waxy Lemons closest supporters then. Go on, post their names so we can all keep our children away from them. If not then did you just make that accusation up to fit your own political views. Evidence please. I don't support Waxy Lemmon in any way but if he's supported by Peado's. then that info is in the public interest!

Richard Price
Leigh McMillan
Kristopher Allan
John Broomfield


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, March 8, 2019, 11:06:17
Oh and here's the man himself calling a 15 year old "fit" on twitter:

http://archive.is/7uUbH


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, March 8, 2019, 11:12:24
There's no proof that Tommeh knows any of the following (unlike the previous 4) but here's a list of other known EDL paedophiles:

Robert Ewing
Kane Hutchinson
Mervyn Jones
Ryan McGee
Michael McQueenie
Archie Sliman
Michael Coates
Brett Moses
Matthew Woodward
Alan Thomas Ellis

https://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2014/11/19/updated-edl-nonce-list/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 8, 2019, 11:16:07
Its almost like there is a problem there.....

Careful you will have Waxy-lemon or one of his supporters banging on your door at 5am.....



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 8, 2019, 12:54:59
Seams to have been getting nawty in ole Swindon town.... https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/17482996.pro-eu-campaigner-68-physically-assaulted-by-man-shouting-brexit-abuse-in-swindon/

Squeaky bum time?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, March 8, 2019, 13:05:42
Will Self totally taking the piss out of Mark Francois (Tory MP) at the end of politics live.

He got so triggered he totally missed the point Self was making and accidentally ended up asking self to apologise to all racists and anti semites.

glorious


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Friday, March 8, 2019, 13:09:44
Will Self totally taking the piss out of Mark Francois (Tory MP) at the end of politics live.

He got so triggered he totally missed the point Self was making and accidentally ended up asking self to apologise to all racists and anti semites.

glorious

Just saw that. Self made a complete tit out of him. Hilarious.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 8, 2019, 13:34:30
Just saw that. Self made a complete tit out of him. Hilarious.

From about 38 mins in.... https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003174/politics-live-08032019


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: reeves4england on Friday, March 8, 2019, 14:10:47
Just saw that. Self made a complete tit out of him. Hilarious.
I think Francois made a tit of himself personally. Self just got to sit there and watch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, March 8, 2019, 15:01:10
Lolz. That bloke made a complete and utter twat of himself.

"All I'm saying is that all Lions are cats"
"How dare you say that all cats are lions"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 8, 2019, 15:22:50
What a shame that the ERG aren't running things as chalkies suggested a couple of pages ago, Mark Francois is their deputy leader, such a keen intellect would certainly have sorted all this out by now  ::)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 8, 2019, 16:07:11
What a shame that the ERG aren't running things as chalkies suggested a couple of pages ago, Mark Francois is their deputy leader, such a keen intellect would certainly have sorted all this out by now  ::)

I don't think intellect is a consideration in reaching the upper echelons of the ERG, rabid xenophobia and paranoia seem to be the key qualifications.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 8, 2019, 16:14:22
I don't think intellect is a consideration in reaching the upper echelons of the ERG, rabid xenophobia and paranoia seem to be the key qualifications.

I always thought school and university attended were the deciding factors....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 8, 2019, 16:16:47
I always thought school and university attended were the deciding factors....

Nah, Francois is a state school kid and then only the lowly Bristol University.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Friday, March 8, 2019, 16:21:03
I think Francois made a tit of himself personally. Self just got to sit there and watch.

Yeah Having watched it again your right. He tried to to that fake offence thing and made an utter twat out of himself


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 8, 2019, 16:26:11
Nah, Francois is a state school kid and then only the lowly Bristol University.....

Ahem... I'm a graduate of Bristol... comes in at 9 in the current listings of top UK Unis.  OK OK, I know that usually the top 2 are desirable..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, March 8, 2019, 16:26:43
The stare-off is superb.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 8, 2019, 20:47:13
Even among the many shitbags on the far right, Aaron Banks still manages to stand out

https://www.channel4.com/news/the-banks-files-brexit-funder-urged-campaign-to-press-it-harder-after-jo-cox-murder


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, March 8, 2019, 21:40:27
Even among the many shitbags on the far right, Aaron Banks still manages to stand out

https://www.channel4.com/news/the-banks-files-brexit-funder-urged-campaign-to-press-it-harder-after-jo-cox-murder

Would they be equal to the far left then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, March 8, 2019, 22:40:12
Just out of interest who do you consider 'hard left'?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Saturday, March 9, 2019, 00:34:53
https://www.communist-party.org.uk/

The guys probably, although they seem to be pro Brexit.  Like Corbyn would be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Saturday, March 9, 2019, 10:31:45
Fair enough.  Im sure there's at least 7 of them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Saturday, March 9, 2019, 10:36:59
Actually I take that back.  Seems I vastly underestimated.  Doing a bit of research it would appear last published figures there are 734 of them.

Scary stuff.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, March 11, 2019, 20:23:21
Going to be an interesting day tomorrow. If I was the Conservatives, I'd bin May and revoke Article 50 and say to the EU, thanks for telling us what you're prepared to do. Now we'll do it properly when we invoke article 50 again and no deal is our preferred option. No deal does seem to be getting more popular.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, March 11, 2019, 21:29:16
Going to be an interesting day tomorrow. If I was the Conservatives, I'd bin May and revoke Article 50 and say to the EU, thanks for telling us what you're prepared to do. Now we'll do it properly when we invoke article 50 again and no deal is our preferred option. No deal does seem to be getting more popular.

This


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, March 11, 2019, 22:09:34
Everyone I've spoken to up and down the country now supports leave. Its a now massive majority. Remain isn't even an option and if it happens then its the People vs Parliment.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, March 11, 2019, 22:26:43
everyone I've spoken to supports remain, except one.

it's clear your sample is worth as much as mine


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, March 11, 2019, 22:27:34
I think May will get it through tomorrow


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, March 11, 2019, 22:40:41
everyone I've spoken to supports remain, except one.

it's clear your sample is worth as much as mine
I listened to that lovely bloke Adonis on talkradio, banging on about how everyone has changed their minds and wants to remain. If a member of the house of frauds can make shit up then so can I.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 06:37:41
that's fine, just ask the people and he'll be shown wrong.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 09:16:26
Everyone I've spoken to up and down the country now supports leave. Its a now massive majority. Remain isn't even an option and if it happens then its the People vs Parliment.

I'm not saying all leave voters are paedophiles, I'm just saying all paedophiles voted leave.

(https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/polopoly_fs/1.5928085.1552134330!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_630/image.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 09:21:10
I'm not saying all leave voters are paedophiles, I'm just saying all paedophiles voted leave.

(https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/polopoly_fs/1.5928085.1552134330!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_630/image.jpg)

I think you should apologise to all paedophiles for saying that!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 09:43:13
Classic stuff from a leave voter on the wireless earlier

“I was in hospital for 2 weeks recently and almost all the staff were foreigners, it’s disgraceful”

You couldn’t make it up


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 10:39:36
JRM and the ERG. Apprently they are going to what the DUP do.

That's some heavily Teflon coated swerve there. They've shit themselves and want to climb down, but are using the mentaist assholes to justify it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 10:40:49
Classic stuff from a leave voter on the wireless earlier

“I was in hospital for 2 weeks recently and almost all the staff were foreigners, it’s disgraceful”

You couldn’t make it up

Really? If you only think leave voters think that then you are deluded. Does not make the comment right mind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 10:47:28
My guess is that it's going through this time.  The ERG will cave in.  The DUP will probably follow.  They know that this 'deal' is as good as it gets for them.  Nick Boles' tweets a short while ago on what would happen if they block the deal today = their worst nightmare.

Their 2nd worst nightmare = what will follow after it all goes through...and they witness how the UK's leverage, which we will need during the main trade negotiations, has evaporated.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 10:54:46
Agreed Ardiles.

edit: Unless Cox says "nothing's changed" - which seems highly unlikely


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 10:56:42
My guess is that it's going through this time.  The ERG will cave in.  The DUP will probably follow.  They know that this 'deal' is as good as it gets for them.  Nick Boles' tweets a short while ago on what would happen if they block the deal today = their worst nightmare.

Their 2nd worst nightmare = what will follow after it all goes through...and they witness how the UK's leverage, which we will need during the main trade negotiations, has evaporated.

I am inclined to agree, however the crux seems to be that May has 'negotiated' that in the case of 'bad faith' (which is notoriously hard to prove legally) the mechanism for legal review (if it ever got that) is to be the ECJ, that alone is hilarious!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 10:56:58
Think it'll be close tonight, but leaning towards agreeing with you Ardiles. Can't see there being a better deal for leavers, I think if you were going to go for a full no deal approach you'd need to do it by restarting the A50 clock and planning properly as Chalkie's Shorts mentioned a few posts ago, trying to rush it would just be calamitous.

Brexit fatigue is a very real thing, I still think the whole think is completely wrong but I'd almost be glad of it being over so the wheels of government can focus on any of the other very real problems affecting the country and the world. Not that fucking our economy will help with those of course, but that ship seems to have sailed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 10:59:25
Classic stuff from a leave voter on the wireless earlier

“I was in hospital for 2 weeks recently and almost all the staff were foreigners, it’s disgraceful”

You couldn’t make it up

There is a guy on another forum I frequent (coincidentally I suspect from a quick google of his characteristics a quite high profile kipper from Swindon) who genuinely seems to believe that the redundant workers dropping out of the manufacturing sector can be quickly retrained to address all the shortfalls in the health sector...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 11:06:41
I see the IRA claimed responsibility for those bombs from last week


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 11:08:47
Brexit fatigue is a very real thing, I still think the whole think is completely wrong but I'd almost be glad of it being over so the wheels of government can focus on any of the other very real problems affecting the country and the world.
Over? This is just the start, and this was supposed to be the easy bit. Assuming they do manage to get this bit through, we've then got to negotiate the actual future relationship with the EU. Not to mention all the other trade deals to replace the ones we had via the EU, all on much worse terms as we're in a weaker position. We're in for a decade or more of this shit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 11:09:12
I see the IRA claimed responsibility for those bombs from last week

Holy fuck!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 11:11:07
I see the IRA claimed responsibility for those bombs from last week
Which one though? Provisional IRA, Continuity IRA, the New IRA or the "I can't Believe it's Not the IRA"?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 11:11:24
Over? This is just the start, and this was supposed to be the easy bit. Assuming they do manage to get this bit through, we've then got to negotiate the actual future relationship with the EU. Not to mention all the other trade deals to replace the ones we had via the EU, all on much worse terms as we're in a weaker position. We're in for a decade or more of this shit.

I realise it won't be over by any stretch of the imagination, but hopefully it'll at least become a bit more technocratic and less politically all consuming. Brexiteers can claim their victory and then the civil services can try and fill in the gaps and smooth out the worst of it, and politics can rumble on to think about something like the planet being absolutely fucked by global warming instead (joy).

The Attorney General's legal advice has just been released and basically says not much has changed though, so hard to see a significant change in the DUP/ERG position. As much as it's entirely her own fault, I don't envy Mrs. May the week she's having.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 11:14:23
Which one though? Provisional IRA, Continuity IRA, the New IRA or the "I can't Believe it's Not the IRA"?

https://news.sky.com/story/ira-says-it-is-responsible-for-parcel-bombs-police-11662974

They must have used Yodel to deliver them though, one didnt turn up


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 11:16:08
The Attorney General's legal advice has just been released and basically says not much has changed though, so hard to see a significant change in the DUP/ERG position. As much as it's entirely her own fault, I don't envy Mrs. May the week she's having.

Oh.

So if the deal goes through, it was politcal postering all along rather than a genuine worry..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 11:16:56
Legal advice is here, pertinent paragraph is the last (19), essentially nothing has changed, so any change in MP's vote will be a political decision.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/785188/190312_-_Legal_Opinion_on_Joint_Instrument_and_Unilateral_Declaration_co..___2_.pdf


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 11:26:36
Cox's verdict is not good for May...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 11:33:33
Cox's verdict is not good for May...

Potentially. Never underestimate an MPs ability to do a u-turn and claim it is now a good enough deal based on not much at all.

Personally think this has all the marking of a Slabber (best endeavours, given shit).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 11:36:59
OK.  Not quite game over for May, maybe, but the AG's advice doesn't help.  What's the betting now that she loses again tonight, but not by much...and then decides to have a 3rd go next week?  That would be true to form, certainly.  She has no Plan B, clearly, and on the evidence of the last few months also doesn't know when to call it a day.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 11:43:41
Now doing the rounds that a DUP source says they do not see how the party can support the deal following Cox legal advice, as the ERG have come out and suggested they will follow whatever the DUP decide to do its not looking good for the PM.

It illustrates what a banana republic we have become where basically our country is being run by a few nutters in a niche party in NI.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 11:44:18
All puts massive pressure on the ERG now.  They have a choice to make today...that they really don't want to have to make (hence the requests to delay the vote 24 hrs.)

Either:
  • Reject the deal, go full throttle for a No Deal outcome but run the (very significant) risk that this backfires and we end up with a soft Brexit; or
  • Execute the biggest climb-down in recent pollical history and vote for the deal they've campaigned so hard against, having had it explained to them already by the AG that their backstop fears have not been addressed.

Tricky.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 11:46:33
All puts massive pressure on the ERG now.  They have a choice to make today...that they really don't want to have to make (hence the requests to delay the vote 24 hrs.)

Either:
  • Reject the deal, go full throttle for a No Deal outcome but run the (very significant) risk that this backfires and we end up with a soft Brexit; or
  • Execute the biggest climb-down in recent pollical history and vote for the deal they've campaigned so hard against, having had it explained to them already by the AG that their backstop fears have not been addressed.

Tricky.

I think they key for them still remains the need to ensure that whatever happens the UK will not be clobbered by the tax evasion rules the EU are bringing into effect from 1st April. Follow the money and all that.   


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 12:05:05
Somebody explain to this thicko

The AG has said the UK cannot legally opt out of the back stop without the EU’s permission. So what’s the upshot if the UK just says to the EU, sometime in the future,  ‘Fuck it, we’re opting out of the backstop. Bollocks to you.’


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 12:13:16
We'll have broken international law.  Not sure what the legal implications would be, which I think is what you're asking.

There's also the small matter of trashing the Good Friday Agreement and risking the fragile peace in Ireland.  I still find it incredible how blind the Tory party is to Irish issues & history, and cringe at the thought that it now seems to be the job of the EU to act as a guarantor of peace.  How any politician can, in good conscience, put all of that at risk is astonishing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 12:15:50
Next few hours will be very interesting.  Will May now finally realise that the cause is lost?  It's certainly looking hopeless for her now.  Crunch point reached, I think.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 12:16:31
Next few hours will be very interesting.  Will May now finally realise that the cause is lost?  It's certainly looking hopeless for her now.  Crunch point reached, I think.

One way or another, the can can't be kicked any further down this road.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 12:17:58
Somebody explain to this thicko

The AG has said the UK cannot legally opt out of the back stop without the EU’s permission. So what’s the upshot if the UK just says to the EU, sometime in the future,  ‘Fuck it, we’re opting out of the backstop. Bollocks to you.’

So the backstop effectively keeps us closely aligned to the EU.

Saying bollocks to it means that there would need to be a hard border between Northern Ireland and Eire.

A boarder risks (or would) end the Good Friday agreement. A potential return of The Troubles in some form.

Treating northern Ireland separately from the rest of the UK is a "red line", and I believe the DUP would kick off.

Hope I've got that right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 12:20:27
ERG next up on their (legal) opinion. Backtrack or resolute - this is going to show where we are going this evening..

Suggestions is the ERG are about to fracture...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 12:26:28
So, in effect, the options are

Accept May’s deal

Or

No Brexit at all as the likelihood of a GE acting as a sort of 2nd Referendum, leading to, probably, no Billy Brexit at all


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 12:28:25
Mr Stupid speaks

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-47529293
Quote
Mark Francois - the vice chairman of the European Research Group of Brexiteer Tory MPs - said he was "wholly unconvinced" by Mrs May's improved deal following the meeting.

He said: "Question after question, after question, was directed at her on the legal advice and particularly on paragraph 19 of the attorney general's statement where he makes the critical observation: 'however the legal risk remains unchanged'.

"Colleague after colleague asked about that.

"It's for individual colleagues to judge and obviously they will listen to what the attorney general says in his statement at 12:30.

"Speaking purely and entirely for myself I regret to say I found the prime minister's answers ultimately unconvincing."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 12:29:02
So, in effect, the options are

Accept May’s deal

Or

No Brexit at all as the likelihood of a GE acting as a sort of 2nd Referendum, leading to, probably, no Billy Brexit at all

I'm not sure I get this. I've heard plenty (on both sides, but only Brexiteers really matter here) saying that their side would win a crushing victory in a second poll - if so, why not have that second poll with the options of a) remain b) leave with May's deal and c) leave with no deal at all and remove any lingering doubt?

Would be a horrible campaign I'm sure and no doubt everyone involved would thoroughly shame themselves, but I can't really see a better way. A potential May's Deal vs Remain referendum or a May's Deal vs No Deal one just seem likely to be boycotted by people who want the third option, so why not put all three on the table?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 12:29:35
So, in effect, the options are

Accept May’s deal

Or

No Brexit at all as the likelihood of a GE acting as a sort of 2nd Referendum, leading to, probably, no Billy Brexit at all

3. Remove/sideline May. Get an extension. Pursue a consensus agreement, e.g. soft Brexit. Not necessarily in that order

4. Crash out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 12:30:30
I presume crash out will be voted down tomorrow


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 12:30:44
if so, why not have that second poll

Sort answer: Because it would irrevocably knacker the Tory party vote.

Which is precisely why this needed to be cross party from the start, and needs to be cross party at the end - collective responsibility


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 12:30:57
I presume crash out will be voted down tomorrow

One would hope so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 12:33:20
Reckon tonight's vote is going to be tighter than a Nun's chuff. What odds on 48-52%?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 12:42:39
I think that the AG has ensured that it will be voted down with a reduced but still clear majority.

DUP are not going to support and ERG won't dare change without DUP.

Much as I now accept that we have to leave so why not get on with it, I think that voting it down is the right decision.  This deal leaves us nowhere for the future negotiations. 



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:08:59
ERG says no


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:10:51
Quote from: Flashheart
ERG says no

interesting..

wonder what their play is, unless they think no deal is still a goer (I suppose it is right now)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:13:24
One way or another, the can can't be kicked any further down this road.

Yes it can. Thursday they could vote to extend, this can only go up until the EU elections in the summer, at which point the PM will no doubt push her deal again, except this time it will be with no opportunity to extend again. That, is the cliff edge.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:18:22
Well, it sort of leaves the options (not completely limited) to Leaving with no deal in place - which they will vote on, or withdrawing the request to leave entirely and coming back to it at a later date.  I can't see the latter going down well with the public and the former seems unlikely to get voted for in Parliament.  I presume the next steps would need to be a GE if they vote no to Hard exit, knowing they have not fulfilled the Referendum's wishes and electorate gets a final chance to have a say - vote for the party who will handle Brexit the way you want it.  If the country cannot decide to give a majority, then it plods along in the EU like a sulking naughty boy in the corner at EU meetings for the next few years.  If it votes in a majority for a soft version, we get that, if it votes in a party voting we get out with no deal, we serve notice again and just focus on post exit deal making, knowing the timeline will be longer than the notice period.  Get a few critical things sorted like residency/work permits but accept trade will be on WTO terms and Ireland is going to be a mess for a while again.  That will probably trigger some sort of UK crisis with the non English regions.

Sounds fun.

I might go watch a wall not quite being built as it gets challenged in the Court system.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:18:27
She wouldn't be able to cling on that long.  Today really does feel like her last chance to get this through.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:21:04
Oh, and my math is assuming that as half the country voted to leave, a party standing on NOT leaving would struggle to get anywhere near enough votes to control Parliament as they would be limiting their available  vote before even considering their policies on other matters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:21:28
But who would want to vote for a Corbyn led Labour government just because you may want a 2nd Referendum?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:24:51
Personally think the country just needs to suck up a Hard Brexit now.  Start planning for shit in Ireland, accept no trade deals and crack open the tinned corned beef and spam.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:25:57
I could send over some food parcels. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:26:56
Maybe Africa could have a concert for us


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:29:20
I could probably send some Chlorinated Chicken if Hard Brexit is voted for I guess, or maybe an entire chicken in a can?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:34:13
chicken in a can?

Can I put imitation cheese on it?

:puke:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:41:43
Can I put imitation cheese on it?

:puke:

Now you're just being silly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:42:17
Member of executive of 1922 committee (basically, an influential backbench Tory) has said May must call an election if she loses tonight. Good luck with that one


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:45:20
Member of executive of 1922 committee (basically, an influential backbench Tory) has said May must call an election if she loses tonight. Good luck with that one

It's interesting actually, the one thing that definitely has changed since the first vote on the agreement isn't the agreement but the polls - the Independent Group breakaway seems to be costing Labour more than the Tories in the polls at the moment, so it looks like they might actually be a fair bit better positioned for an election. Which is insane, that you can be leading in the polls despite being this inept, but welcome to 2019 where up is down and black is white.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:47:11
It's interesting actually, the one thing that definitely has changed since the first vote on the agreement isn't the agreement but the polls - the Independent Group breakaway seems to be costing Labour more than the Tories in the polls at the moment, so it looks like they might actually be a fair bit better positioned for an election. Which is insane, that you can be leading in the polls despite being this inept, but welcome to 2019 where up is down and black is white.
Think it's more a case of a race to the bottom, Labour are proving quite staggeringly inept, any halfway competent opposition would be in government by now


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:56:06
I suppose May's only hope now is trying to get enough ERG splitters + Labour MPs from leave constituencies to vote for her deal to make up for the loss of most of the ERG and the DUP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 13:57:56
The thought of the Tories winning such an election in these circumstances is astonishing and makes me shudder.  So it will probably happen.

Will almost certainly lead to the break up of the country, but chaos is the new normal...so why not?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 14:13:15
DUP says no. (Officially)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 14:37:19
Regardless of what your stance is, what the bleeding hell will a general election solve?

And as said before, how do you separate out Brexit from everything? Would a remainder vote for Corbyn or a leaver vote for May* based on just Brexit alone?

* or whoever. Actually that's a point. The sequence would surely be leadership contest then GE. But haven't the ERG shot their load over forcing May out?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 14:40:57
Regardless of what your stance is, what the bleeding hell will a general election solve?

And as said before, how do you separate out Brexit from everything? Would a remainder vote for Corbyn or a leaver vote for May* based on just Brexit alone?

* or whoever. Actually that's a point. The sequence would surely be leadership contest then GE. But haven't the ERG shot their load over forcing May out?

Election is indeed a waste of time as you would have a pro Brexit Tory against a pro Brexit Corbyn, Corbyn may have fooled many last time round but he has royally lost the remain vote, probably the young vote who naively fell for the bollocks that he was different an learnt the truth the hard way in the last two years.

Actually can see the point of an election for the Tories as they could potentially get a majority against Corbyn when you consider he lost last time round when he hadn't been found out and was at his peak, the only grey area is the TIGGERS and the Lib Dems who could perhaps make some gains if they got organised and at least informally worked together.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 15:11:56
Actually can see the point of an election for the Tories as they could potentially get a majority against Corbyn when you consider he lost last time round when he hadn't been found out and was at his peak
Yes but it does nothing to solve the mess the country is in, we will just have a different govt with the same dilemma and even less time to resolve it. So, yeah, benefits the Tory Party, doesn't help the country, a General Election it will be. After all, that's how we ended up here in the first place.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 15:14:59
That's how I think a GE works - you essentially use it to run the referendum in a way that provides a clear exit path, or otherwise and people can't moan at the outcome.  We vote for MP's to set the laws of the land, if we vote for a party that goes Hard exit, that's what we get.  If we vote for an MP who wants to tsay in, we accept that's how they will vote.  If Brexit is such a big priority for people, they will vote accordingly and parties can offer different tastes of Exit or In.  We'll probably get a hung parliament and they'll have to figure out how to negotiate properly.  Mess either way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 15:32:28
@alexwickham

ERG meeting at 5pm-ish, usual pre-vote meeting to decide how to vote. But despite earlier statement, they haven't yet decided what they're going to do... amid speculation that many want to climb down


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 15:39:44
@alexwickham

ERG meeting at 5pm-ish, usual pre-vote meeting to decide how to vote. But despite earlier statement, they haven't yet decided what they're going to do... amid speculation that many want to climb down

Bill Cash has said that 'we' (which most people have taken to mean the ERG) will vote against the deal.  The DUP are voting against as well.

I guess that both groups still think that No Deal might be possible if the deal goes down.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 15:40:40
Rees-Moog reportedly undecided though.

shitting themselves when the chips are down


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 15:55:15
If the ERG support is it enough to get her over the line if the DUP have shouted NOOOOOOOOOOO?

I love that to try and make it look different the new version has a different font and formatting to make it a much smaller document visually! https://twitter.com/OwenSmith_MP/status/1105413626846986240

BTW an interesting review of where we are here https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/12/no-fudge-no-unicorns-may-s-new-deal-is-total-failure


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sippo on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 18:16:50
Does all this politic stuff affect currency rates? Should I change my dollars now or wait?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 18:20:59
Does all this politic stuff affect currency rates? Should I change my dollars now or wait?

The £ has bombed today...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 18:24:17
you're a bit late there sippo!

but let's be honest, bombed = 2c

it's unlikely to be a total disaster. might recover yet


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 18:33:18
Changed £10,000 yesterday! Phew!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sippo on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 18:37:20
Balls. 2c isn’t the end of the world tbh. Got 3/4 weeks til we leave, so may change.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 19:21:33
Vote lost by 149


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 19:21:54
ouch, humiliated

The ayes to the right 242
The noes to the left 391


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 19:35:11
ouch, humiliated

The ayes to the right 242
The noes to the left 391
Yeah but it's all about diesel engines innit.....

Sent from my SM-J330FN


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sippo on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 19:44:29
For a simpleton, what does this all mean?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: woolster on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 19:45:03
its never going to happen, has now become a war of attrition, self-serving, liars & wankers the lot of them


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 19:49:33
Excellent news. Well done all the MP’s. Roll on no deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 19:51:25
Excellent news. Well done all the MP’s. Roll on no deal.
Until that's voted down tomorrow


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 19:58:06
Until that's voted down tomorrow

You are of course forgetting that we are leaving on 29th March under article 50 which has been voted on and passed by parliament. This is now a binding legal act. Tomorrow’s vote cannot supercede that. I could be wrong but that is my understanding.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: woolster on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 20:00:45
You are of course forgetting that we are leaving on 29th March under article 50 which has been voted on by parliament and is now a binding legal act. Tomorrow’s vote cannot supercede that. I could be wrong but that is my understanding.
they can keep delaying it tho, word tonight is a delay for 12 months ::)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 20:07:55
they can keep delaying it tho, word tonight is a delay for 12 months ::)
Yay! Another year of people with little, to no, understanding of the complexities involved commenting as if they're fucking experts..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 20:10:56
Quote from: Sippo
For a simpleton, what does this all mean?

simpleton or rocket scientist, nobody really knows


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 20:25:18
simpleton or rocket scientist, nobody really knows

In simple terms. It is a game of chess. May (GB) v EU. She doesn’t want them to lose and she doesn’t want us to win. They want to win at all costs. Every time she makes a move they say check. So she keeps on until they say check mate. During the game she needs to have a piss, when she goes out the room they move the pieces and she pretends not to notice. When they go for a piss they leave 26 in the room to make sure she does not do what they do when she does! Simples.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 20:41:59
We can still withdraw the notice to quite as well, wouldn't that be fun to watch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 20:43:33
it would, but won't happen without referendum 2.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: woolster on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 20:48:07
In simple terms. It is a game of chess. May (GB) v EU. She doesn’t want them to lose and she doesn’t want us to win. They want to win at all costs. Every time she makes a move they say check. So she keeps on until they say check mate. During the game she needs to have a piss, when she goes out the room they move the pieces and she pretends not to notice. When they go for a piss they leave 26 in the room to make sure she does not do what they do when she does! Simples.
:nod:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 20:51:45
The biggest issue I see is the previous GE.  Parties should have made it clear what their strategy was, and people who didn't agree with the Brexit approach should have stood for other parties.  To be fair to May she seems to be doing what they had in their manifesto?

If the electorate then gave a majority to a Hard Brexit group, we'd know what was happening.  As it is the Tories who want that shouldn't be under that banner right now, if this is so fundamental, which it is.  Quite what Labour are playing at, I have no idea.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 21:31:59
The biggest issue I see is the previous GE.  Parties should have made it clear what their strategy was
But then they'd have had to have had an idea what it was themselves instead of just making it up as they go along

Quite what Labour are playing at, I have no idea.
That's OK, neither have they


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, March 13, 2019, 08:35:52
Mr Simplistic here.

Why cant we just stay in the EU exactly as we are now until any future trade deal between the UK and the EU has been negotiated and agreed and then leave?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, March 13, 2019, 09:09:06
I think that you've just described the Transition Period.  But the Transition Period is only offered by the EU if we first agree the terms of a Withdrawal Agreement...which we haven't.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, March 13, 2019, 09:20:58
Mr Simplistic here.

Why cant we just stay in the EU exactly as we are now until any future trade deal between the UK and the EU has been negotiated and agreed and then leave?

EU won't start trade negotiations until we've left, it's written into article 50.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 13, 2019, 09:38:15
Mr Simplistic here.

Why cant we just stay in the EU exactly as we are now until any future trade deal between the UK and the EU has been negotiated and agreed and then leave?

Because that would make us have to implement the tax evasion legislation being enacted on 1st April, which makes the headless rush with a semblance of a plan to activate A50 and set a leave date of 29th March even smellier.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, March 13, 2019, 13:03:10
She's going to keep going and going on the same, isn't she.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, March 13, 2019, 13:31:29
You are of course forgetting that we are leaving on 29th March under article 50 which has been voted on and passed by parliament. This is now a binding legal act. Tomorrow’s vote cannot supercede that. I could be wrong but that is my understanding.
No you're correct. Without a delay, we are leaving on March 29th. Parliament can vote against no deal, but if they don't vote for the only deal that is on the table, then we will leave without a deal unless we manage to get a delay. But that's far from a given and not in our gift. This is the stupidity of all these MPs waffling about CM2.0 and Malthouse Compromise and Canada 1.27 etc etc - they may or may not be better than the deal that has been negotiated but they are not the deal that has been negotiated, so they aren't on the table. MPs may as well vote for giraffes that shit skittles


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 13, 2019, 13:43:56
No you're correct. Without a delay, we are leaving on March 29th. Parliament can vote against no deal, but if they don't vote for the only deal that is on the table, then we will leave without a deal unless we manage to get a delay. But that's far from a given and not in our gift. This is the stupidity of all these MPs waffling about CM2.0 and Malthouse Compromise and Canada 1.27 etc etc - they may or may not be better than the deal that has been negotiated but they are not the deal that has been negotiated, so they aren't on the table. MPs may as well vote for giraffes that shit skittles

Rather summed up here.....

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/13/national-breakdown-a-glimpse-of-the-vicious-chaos-of-no-deal


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, March 13, 2019, 15:05:03
I've always thought that Giraffe Skittles are better than Unicorn Farts, so it's good to hear that they are going to get a vote in Parliament Paul.

What seems to have happened is people confusing the exit with a new Britain/Eu Trade Deal.  All we are supposed to be working on now is how to get out if we didn't want to just close the doors and revert to National laws. 

People clearly had an idea that wasn't a great idea as we had plenty of EU Nationals left on the Island and some of "our own" marooned in Spanish enclaves.  Not to mention all the companies who needed parts shipped in who wouldn't fancy working out the impact of WTO rules.  However, people seem to think we were jumping right to the end game here - we are not, just how to get out.  Seems too late now.  It's like the newer Jurassic World film with the Brachiasaurus looking on forlornly as the ship vanishes off over the horizon with a Volcanic Ash Cloud smarting his or hers arse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, March 13, 2019, 15:15:05
However, people seem to think we were jumping right to the end game here - we are not, just how to get out. 

That's only partly true though, because the how we get out is intrinsically linked to the what next.

For example, if we agreed to a permanent customs + freedom of movement, then we don't need Euro negotiation post Brexit (or BINO as Brexiteers would call it).

What appears to be happening right now is more May can kicking to get to a final, never to be extended extension - and then force through her deal as it really would be that or no deal. and that genuinely risks no deal.

In a sensible world, before Christmas (or maybe 2 years ago) we should have been trying to find a consensus in parliament. But it seems she's determined not to do this and not to move her 'red lines'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, March 13, 2019, 17:25:10
I am assuming Customs Union is off the table-  that would never fly after the Ref.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, March 13, 2019, 18:57:50
Perhaps it has been answered hundreds of times but is not the problem with leaving the Customs Union that it appears to necessitate the re-introduction of border controls in broad opposition to the fundamental ambit of the GFA and peace on the island of Ireland?

I'm aware of many of the arguments that have been floated but, remainer or leaver, there are real issues about maintaining borders (or not) between jurisdictions with divergent standards, tarrifs and immigration policies.  Doubly so on a politically sensitive border such as on the Irish mainland.  The more divergent and the more open, the more extensive and serious will be the organised crime that is attracted.  That is a no brainer.

I personally don't think many hardcore leavers give this any serious consideration.  Whilst the onus is on them to show how the UK would comply with its GFA obligations with "Withdrawal Agreement Minus" alternatives, it is also my opinion that Eire/EU could be much more collaborative about potential solutions.  

Whether the WA is a trap or a legitimate insurance policy would seem to depend whether you are leave or remain but there is a real question for grown ups to answer.

But for the maths of the DUP and the Cons in the HC, I believe a majority of actual N. Irish would accept a Customs Union border down the North Sea.  That might largely reconcile the "no Customs Union" proposition Robert highlights with the UKs GFA and wider obligations to Ireland inc NI above?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Wednesday, March 13, 2019, 19:08:35
But for the maths of the DUP and the Cons in the HC, I believe a majority of actual N. Irish would accept a Customs Union border down the North Sea.  Just sayin'.
Maybe they would, but Scotland voted to remain and they will not accept part of the UK effectively still in the EU whilst they are not. Would that then break up the United Kingdom?


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, March 13, 2019, 19:19:08
holy fuck. slender majority of 4 but MPs have approved the spellman addendum to take no deal off the table permanently.

means jack shit legally mind, it's non binding, so will probably be ignored


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Wednesday, March 13, 2019, 19:57:58
means jack shit legally mind, it's non binding, so will probably be ignored

Like the 2016 Ref?

(https://media.giphy.com/media/yfODS4vm1VaU/giphy.gif)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, March 13, 2019, 20:18:01
Maybe they would, but Scotland voted to remain and they will not accept part of the UK effectively still in the EU whilst they are not. Would that then break up the United Kingdom?
It would increase the possibility of Scotland leaving the UK because of that incongruity.

It is my opinion, that the Scots have shown financial pragmatism in voting to remain in the UK and the EU and would be likely to do so again were they to be asked again about the UK.

Whatever lessons we may have learned, the EU Referendum has probably taught us not to be too confident in any predictions.

I note meanwhile apparently reasonable grounds for anticipating May's WA passing at a third attempt....



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, March 14, 2019, 16:15:03
Sammy Wilson of the DUP saying that the economy is currently strong, which proves that we don't need to be in the EU.

Who's going to tell him?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, March 14, 2019, 16:22:15
I guess he means can withstand leaving the EU, rather than strong because we are in the EU.

actually, who knows what those nutty gobshites mean.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, March 14, 2019, 18:32:30
Britain was known as "the sick man of Europe" when it joined in 1973.

For the ensuing period up to the Referendum, the UK's per capita growth outstripped that of not only Germany but also of the USA.

Time to acknowledge fact over myth: the UK has prospered within the EU.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, March 14, 2019, 19:07:21
At a basic level it would be absurd for anyone to claim otherwise - what point would there be of being part of a Single Market, as we have, if not to bring more economic opportunity.

The argument is more whether the or not that benefit is enough to balance what some would see as a loss of political sovereignty or the other argued fact that only a small proportion of the Nation have seen that economic benefit.  On top of that, the opening of borders clearly didn't play well with the Saxons.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 14, 2019, 23:34:28
Jesus fucking wept:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/14/david-steel-faces-suspension-from-lib-dems-over-cyril-smith-revelation

And the next leader of the Tory Party, Boris "all about me" Johnson, has the temerity to describe enquiries into historic child abuse allegations against his kind as "spaffing money". Wonder what he's worried about coming out?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 15, 2019, 13:00:50
She wouldn't be able to cling on that long.  Today really does feel like her last chance to get this through.

Just 3 days on, and I think I'm changing my mind.  May's actions are despicable, bringing her deal back for a 3rd vote when it's been decisively rejected twice already.  She's holding a gun to the heads of the ERG and the DUP - and now that No Deal is, supposedly, off the table, it would not surprise me now if both groups cave in and help to vote it through.

This is nothing short of political blackmail.  The consensus building approach, attempting to find a compromise that parliament could genuinely live with, will probably never get off the ground.  It's shameful.  The outcome will most probably be hated by everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate.  Some legacy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 15, 2019, 14:17:19
Last night we saw the farce of a government offering a free vote on a key part of the whole purpose of this government for fear that their own cabinet would defy the party whip. And a government minister vote against the government's motion just minutes after he had sat down from delivering a speech in favour of that motion on behalf of the government he doesn't agree with. This is not a government in any sense of the word


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, March 15, 2019, 18:38:05
On another note, that woman MP who went to prison, how the fuck does she keep her seat?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, March 18, 2019, 16:09:28
An exciting moment for fans of niche parliamentary procedure (that's just Jacob Rees-Mogg I think) as John Bercow announces that the British parliament effectively has the double (triple in this case) jeopardy rule on legislation and therefore Theresa May can't call another vote on the same deal.

I can see that going down well.


On another note, that woman MP who went to prison, how the fuck does she keep her seat?

Serious answer, the jail term has to be more than 12 months to automatically lose the seat. She can be recalled with 10% of her constituents signing a petition though, which you'd imagine would happen as both local parties support it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: woolster on Monday, March 18, 2019, 16:21:48
On another note, that woman MP who went to prison, how the fuck does she keep her seat?
the best of it is she turned up to vote last week with a tag on :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, March 18, 2019, 16:22:18
An exciting moment for fans of niche parliamentary procedure (that's just Jacob Rees-Mogg I think) as John Bercow announces that the British parliament effectively has the double (triple in this case) jeopardy rule on legislation and therefore Theresa May can't call another vote on the same deal.

I can see that going down well.


Serious answer, the jail term has to be more than 12 months to automatically lose the seat. She can be recalled with 10% of her constituents signing a petition though, which you'd imagine would happen as both local parties support it.

Erskine May, Theresa May not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, March 18, 2019, 17:42:05
This is ####ing comical.  Almost at the point now where we don't really deserve to be a country any more.

Whatever happens with Brexit in the next few weeks, it's obvious that there needs to be a complete rewrite of the Constitution and how Parliament works.  But I'd probably let Scotland & NI go their separate ways first before bothering with any of that.

This is as far from 'taking back control' as it's possible to get.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, March 18, 2019, 17:49:42
This is ####ing comical.  Almost at the point now where we don't really deserve to be a country any more.

Whatever happens with Brexit in the next few weeks, it's obvious that there needs to be a complete rewrite of the Constitution and how Parliament works.  But I'd probably let Scotland & NI go their separate ways first before bothering with any of that.

This is as far from 'taking back control' as it's possible to get.

Buckland in his role of Solicitor General has decreed a constitutional crisis....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, March 18, 2019, 17:56:57
An exciting moment for fans of niche parliamentary procedure (that's just Jacob Rees-Mogg I think) as John Bercow announces that the British parliament effectively has the double (triple in this case) jeopardy rule on legislation and therefore Theresa May can't call another vote on the same deal.


Another change of font and line spacing beckons.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Monday, March 18, 2019, 17:59:41
Seems as good a time as any to repeat my support for HARD REMAIN

So in summary, there is no majority for a deal, there is no majority for no-deal, there is no majority for remain, and there is no majority for another referendum. There is no majority for a change in the leader of the governing party, and there is no majority for a no-confidence vote in the government. With all this in mind, let's get rid of the lot and let the EU run the show: HARD REMAIN.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Monday, March 18, 2019, 18:10:36
Whatever happens with Brexit in the next few weeks, it's obvious that there needs to be a complete rewrite of the Constitution and how Parliament works.

I agree.

But, as the current clusterfuck shows, good luck getting MPs to vote for that.

The whole reason we're in this current situation is because the majority of the Commons put themselves ahead of their country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, March 18, 2019, 18:18:06
 
Seems as good a time as any to repeat my support for HARD REMAIN

As things stand we leave the EU in 11 days with no deal.

:popcorn:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, March 18, 2019, 18:22:50
This is more comical than a Luke Williams defence. Surely may has to be told to fuck off. Most leavers would remain than sign up to her deal which unites remainders and leavers in agreeing it's a pile of shit.
This country is a laughing stock. Parliament is a laughing stock. Both major parties are a laughing stock.
I'd suspend parliament after rescinding article 50. We've waited a while to leave, another couple of years won't hurt. A general election needs to be called but fuck knows how people would vote. You can see the smaller parties hoovering up votes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, March 18, 2019, 18:56:45
I think we're agreed Chalkies, and I'm at the opposite side to you on wanted result.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Monday, March 18, 2019, 20:14:15
Buckland has, I think, suggested prorogue to get around the rules on repeated votes being presented to parliament. The irony being this would politicise Her Maj and effectively make her one of them unelected bureacrats.

I'm sure it would look good from the outside too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 18, 2019, 20:16:45
This is more comical than a Luke Williams defence. Surely may has to be told to fuck off. Most leavers would remain than sign up to her deal which unites remainders and leavers in agreeing it's a pile of shit.
This country is a laughing stock. Parliament is a laughing stock. Both major parties are a laughing stock.
I'd suspend parliament after rescinding article 50. We've waited a while to leave, another couple of years won't hurt. A general election needs to be called but fuck knows how people would vote. You can see the smaller parties hoovering up votes.
Logically you're right - the government isn't functioning and nor is parliament, neither are capable of governing the country. But a delay or even another referendum which I think is a likely outcome of an election would I fear be even more divisive than what we've already seen, difficult though that may be to imagine. I think we're more and more likely to crash out without a deal right now


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, March 18, 2019, 21:02:56
Has anyone who doesn't have much of an agenda (because we all do, to a degree) tried to work out how the No Deal scenario would play out?  If there is severe disruption lasting more than a week or two, would No Deal not become politically untenable?  You might just see a few weeks of nonsense followed by a humiliating approach to be let back in.  In fact, if those arguing for this are so certain that No Deal is a catastrophe, should they not welcome the short term dislocation as the price to pay for having the option blow itself to pieces - and then an inevitable return to the EU?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, March 18, 2019, 21:12:54
Once its done, I don't think you can expect to just walk back in can you?

To my mind, even if all that happened the EU would drive a hard bargain. We wouldn't be back in on our current terms. Hence I don't want it to happen.

I also think Parliament wouldn't admit its failure so quickly, then when they did they'd pin it on the people.

But mostly I don't buy the "doomsday scenario" portrayed. Some disruptions, sure, but  I think the really devastating effects of no deal would be felt 12-18 months after.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, March 18, 2019, 21:22:04
I'd be very happy with no deal but with 2 years planning not 10 days hence why I'd revoke article 50. The ultimate embarrassment would be for us to ask the EU for an extension and they tell us to fuck off, which I think they should do. We are clearly fucking clueless.
We really need to get our shit together before going back to the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 00:18:05
Has anyone who doesn't have much of an agenda (because we all do, to a degree) tried to work out how the No Deal scenario would play out?  If there is severe disruption lasting more than a week or two, would No Deal not become politically untenable?  You might just see a few weeks of nonsense followed by a humiliating approach to be let back in.  In fact, if those arguing for this are so certain that No Deal is a catastrophe, should they not welcome the short term dislocation as the price to pay for having the option blow itself to pieces - and then an inevitable return to the EU?

Technically speaking, as we'd resume full control, the Govt. can decide to just ignore making any of the obvious changes, so can avoid the crash and burn aspect.  Just let people from the EU in with no new checks and risk them staying and taking our jobs or benefits, don't add any tariff's or custom checks and so on.  The problem of course is that does not deliver what we need, but it would give a General Election the chance to determine what steps the country wants next.  The only confirmed issue would be that we are OUT.  It would be nonsense to carry on adhering to all EU regs given we would be getting no benefits in return so the parties can lay out what new laws they'd put in place.

I think that is possible.  Even the hard Brexit people may take that as an option.

Of course the other option is the blow up the drawbridge and hope the people in Spain are looked after.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 06:22:05
What's the Speaker playing at? Was the matter voted on in the 2nd vote substantially different from the first?

Whatever, it strengthens the likelihood of leaving the EU on 29th March 2019 as we have been preparing for over the last 2 years.

How are you all planning to celebrate Independence Day?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 07:34:44
At the Winchester Arms, waiting for it to all blow over :pint:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 07:41:20
Quote from: Combe Up
What's the Speaker playing at? Was the matter voted on in the 2nd vote substantially different from the first?

?

Ultimately in legal terms it wasn't. But the So called reassurances deserved debate and the vote

This time the only thing that changed was may threatening that Brexit would be massively delayed.

I think May will find a way to get round the issue and Brexit will be whatever it was always going to be, but I also think the speaker was correct.

You can't have this 'keep asking' approach every time something is voted down so emphatically.

she'll get her deal thorough.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 07:42:35
Quote from: RedRag
At the Winchester Arms, waiting for it to all blow over :pint:

you'll be a 90 year old raging alcoholic by then.

bet there are still picked eggs left though


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 08:09:03

You can't have this 'keep asking' approach every time something is voted down so emphatically

Phew, no second referendum then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 08:26:52
Phew, no second referendum then.
That depends on the whim of Bercow. I agree with what he's done but I think he's done it for all the wrong reasons.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 08:29:50
If I'm honest I'm just totally fucked off with the whole thing. The moral indignation from all sides is becoming nauseating.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 08:56:12
Phew, no second referendum then.

We've already had the second referendum, silly!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 08:56:40
At the Winchester Arms, waiting for it to all blow over :pint:
Are Arthur Daley and Terry there?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 09:12:09
We've already had the second referendum, silly!

And the first one was quite emphatic. In means in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 09:13:09
Phew, no second referendum then.

In case you were serious, I actually meant the same thing without changes.

We aren't getting a second referendum, I wouldn't worry.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 09:46:33
Are Arthur Daley and Terry there?
the missus won't be, but hoping Arfur and Tel will 'ave sorted the tariff-free Prosecco and Pilsners. ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 09:55:55
 A lengthy extension of Art 50, means we have to take part in the Euro elections, we could sort of save some money, and use it as a third referendum.  It's proportional rep, so candidates could stand for no deal, Canada ++, managed no deal, Norway, leave but customs union, remain. The negotiated settlement should then take on board the outcome of the PR vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 18:32:17
I think Ardiles mentioned something about our status as a legitimate nation/country/kingdom. While I'm sure it was rather tongue in cheek, after reading a delightfully curious book, 'An Atlas of Countries That Don't Exist'; the suggestion is seemingly much closer (politically) every day.

PS: For those that enjoy cartography, political geography et al. It is an interesting read.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 20:39:03
A lengthy extension of Art 50, means we have to take part in the Euro elections, we could sort of save some money, and use it as a third referendum.  It's proportional rep, so candidates could stand for no deal, Canada ++, managed no deal, Norway, leave but customs union, remain. The negotiated settlement should then take on board the outcome of the PR vote.

This is the best idea so far! As long as there is a "leave with no strings" option or "NOTA" i.e. none of the above.

If only the AV referendum had gone the other way. Is it too late to rerun that one too?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 10:24:46
I work for an Italian printing company and we produce the books in Italy and transport them back to the UK - recently we have been asking our UK customers to supply us with an EORI number to help with the customs - in the event of a No Deal we will need a TSP number and that folks is it....if books have a tariff to be added ( which they don`t ) the customer would receive an invoice from the tax office 4 days after delivery into UK - this is triggered by the TSP - is this the catastrophic cliff edge we are all concerned about...I realize this is only books but...I do wonder who is telling leading us here...??


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 10:58:09
I work for an Italian printing company and we produce the books in Italy and transport them back to the UK - recently we have been asking our UK customers to supply us with an EORI number to help with the customs - in the event of a No Deal we will need a TSP number and that folks is it....if books have a tariff to be added ( which they don`t ) the customer would receive an invoice from the tax office 4 days after delivery into UK - this is triggered by the TSP - is this the catastrophic cliff edge we are all concerned about...I realize this is only books but...I do wonder who is telling leading us here...??

The whole Brexiteer argument, is that it will make everything better for you, not that it will only perhaps make things slightly worse.... if that was the case why bother?

Clearly your job for a European company wasn't being hindered by being in the EU as Brexiteers would argue.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 11:40:05
The whole Brexiteer argument, is that it will make everything better for you, not that it will only perhaps make things slightly worse.... if that was the case why bother?

Clearly your job for a European company wasn't being hindered by being in the EU as Brexiteers would argue.

Are the Brexiteers saying that...? I am not sure they are - as this is a trading position this isn`t something that is being argued / discussed - this is more of an illustration that the worrying cliff edge of not being able to receive essential items due to a No deal might be slightly over stressed...?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 12:08:20
Are the Brexiteers saying that...? I am not sure they are - as this is a trading position this isn`t something that is being argued / discussed - this is more of an illustration that the worrying cliff edge of not being able to receive essential items due to a No deal might be slightly over stressed...?

Well books probably aren't items that are time essential, I'm sure people can wait a day or 2 longer.... the government has plans in place for more critical items like medecines and isotopes  .... Grayling spent mills on a shipping company with no boats, no harbour and then had to compensate Eurostar, for not considering them for the contract


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 14:43:03
This is gold!  From the Guardian:

And earlier the French government spokesman, Benjamin Griveaux, said:
 
France’s position is simple: the British prime minister must explain to us for how long and what for, and offer us guarantees.  A delay is therefore not automatic nor certain.


If anyone was in any doubt what 'taking back control' really looks like, we are now France's bitch, and will do as the rest of Europe tells us to.

That's the reality of Brexit.  How far we've fallen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 14:46:04
Left image: Jan 2017, right image: today

(https://i.redd.it/sv2g6c8qu8n21.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 15:10:03
Got to say, I was more drawn to the story of Putin’s prostitutes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 15:13:57
I couldn't get past Treez's pyjamas.  They're awful.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 15:20:32
This is gold!  From the Guardian:

And earlier the French government spokesman, Benjamin Griveaux, said:
 
France’s position is simple: the British prime minister must explain to us for how long and what for, and offer us guarantees.  A delay is therefore not automatic nor certain.


If anyone was in any doubt what 'taking back control' really looks like, we are now France's bitch, and will do as the rest of Europe tells us to.

That's the reality of Brexit.  How far we've fallen.

Spot on - sooner we get over that cliff edge the better.....not going to be allowed to happen though - no one gets to leave the Union nobody


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 15:23:52
This is the future, I'm afraid.  Even after we go over the cliff edge (in or out), we are going to be dictated to by our near neighbours.  Jayo's pic above sums it up succinctly.  Brexit = giving up control, and handing it to others.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 16:34:36
Got to say, I was more drawn to the story of Putin’s prostitutes.

I'm with you on that... in the words of the Fab Four...

Well the Ukraine girls really knock me out
They leave the west behind
And Moscow girls make me sing and shout
That Georgia's always on my my my my my my my my my mind
Oh, come on
Hu hey hu, hey, ah, yeah
Yeah, yeah, yeah
I'm back in the USSR
You don't know how lucky you are, boys
Back in the USSR


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 16:42:03
So looking at what Mr Tusk has said it looks like these are the options.

1. Vote for May's deal (and get a short extension to the March 30th leave date)
2. Vote for no deal Brexit

Is it still possible to repeal article 50 or has that ship sailed?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 16:45:19
We could invade and kick ass


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 16:47:26
So looking at what Mr Tusk has said it looks like these are the options.

1. Vote for May's deal (and get a short extension to the March 30th leave date)
2. Vote for no deal Brexit

Is it still possible to repeal article 50 or has that ship sailed?

Looking increasingly like no deal... I noticed earlier, the shelves in Morrisons were denuded of bog roll, with a sign up saying supply problems...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 16:50:02
I wonder if May still thinks that no deal is better than a bad deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 17:09:34
Is it still possible to repeal article 50 or has that ship sailed?

Technically and legally, we can revoke the notification of article 50 unilaterally and continue as members of the EU without having to ask the rest of the EU first.

Politically, that would of course be rather more difficult.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 17:10:22
she'll somehow force her deal through, I'm sure of it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 18:15:48
she'll somehow force her deal through, I'm sure of it.

It's quite simple really. If MPs allow us to leave with no deal and everything turns into a complete clusterfuck, they get ousted at the next GE. If they vote a deal through, they might not like it so much, but they get to stay in office and continue feathering their own nests.

Publically, it'll be because May managed to get both sides of the House to unite at the final hour for the good of the country, of course.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 18:30:07
It's quite simple really. If MPs allow us to leave with no deal and everything turns into a complete clusterfuck, they get ousted at the next GE. If they vote a deal through, they might not like it so much, but they get to stay in office and continue feathering their own nests.

Publically, it'll be because May managed to get both sides of the House to unite at the final hour for the good of the country, of course.


Therein lies the ultimate reasons why the public are disillusioned by current UK politics, government and parliament. No matter what side of the soon-to-be-devalued pound coin we fall. :badmood:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 19:44:56
So Corbyn walked into a meeting of opposition leaders, saw Chukka Ummuna was there, said ‘he’s not a proper leader’ and walked out!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 19:46:26
did that come from the Tories?

May doesn't give a shit what other people think.

Corbyn doesn't have a brexit stance anyway


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 20:01:51
that's not to say he's not been a prize prick


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 20:50:37
So may blames parliament while she wants to crack on having given parliament fuck all chance to contribute to the solution. She is a real piece of work. Vote the fucking bill down and ditch the bitch and call a general election.
It's everyone else's fault but may. She is on the people's side. Fucking delusional.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 21:08:08
agreeing twice in two days with you!

how dare she presume to speak for the people. She's fucked up and tried to slopey shoulder it back on Parliament. what a cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 23:07:08
Corbyn and May both demonstrated why they are eminently unsuited to running the country with their petulant displays today. Both as bad as each other. Looks like we're leaving with no deal doesn't it? Fuck it, bring it on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, March 20, 2019, 23:41:43
Don't get into a twitter argument with the corbynetts on why it was stupid to walk out. trust me

those guys are dim. thankfully I used an alias account


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 09:55:11
Fuck it, bring it on.

Don't really agree with this, but understand the sentiment.  It's mind-numbingly awful, isn't it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 09:58:59
I'm going on holiday next month. If we leave with no deal apart from making sure my passport is well in date (it is) is there likely to be any other disruption I should be aware of?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 09:59:16
No deal is the only outcome that means leavers have to admit they were wrong. It'll almost be worth it for the schaudenfrade.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 09:59:53
Don't really agree with this, but understand the sentiment.  It's mind-numbingly awful, isn't it.
Yeah it is and I'm not even sure I agree with it tbh but there's a big part of me now that just thinks you know this IS what people voted for, you can't just junk that, while the consequences of a no-deal Brexit will be bad, the damage to our democracy if we don't leave will be worse, so let's let people reap what they have sown. As adults, we have to live with the consequences of our decisions, and MPs do not have the right to paternalistically overturn those decisions because they think they know better. That's way worse than a Brexit of any description. So fuck it. Bring it on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 10:02:37
I'm going on holiday next month. If we leave with no deal apart from making sure my passport is well in date (it is) is there likely to be any other disruption I should be aware of?


There's the inevitable zombie apocalypse. I'm booked to go to Ireland for 4 days in mid-April as well, on a kids football tour, not enthralled at the prospect of dealing with any potential disruption to travel etc with 40-50 kids in tow. So while the May extension is politically stupid on a selfish level I'd welcome it because it postpones whatever shitstorm until shortly before millions of people are travelling on their summer holidays.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 10:04:53
There's the inevitable zombie apocalypse. I'm booked to go to Ireland for 4 days in mid-April as well, on a kids football tour, not enthralled at the prospect of dealing with any potential disruption to travel etc with 40-50 kids in tow. So while the May extension is politically stupid on a selfish level I'd welcome it because it postpones whatever shitstorm until shortly before millions of people are travelling on their summer holidays.

That's kind of what I was thinking as well. I won't be the only person going away for Easter so the potential 3 month delay would certainly put a few minds at ease. Now with a no deal looking likely and the leave date being the end of this month I fear more carnage than usual at the airports etc.

Although the guy that works for the Italian book printers said its all going to be ok, so he seems to know best :)

Where in Ireland are you off to?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 10:07:55
Something like 50 to 60 new signatures to this petition every second.

Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU (http://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 10:12:24
I'm going on holiday next month. If we leave with no deal apart from making sure my passport is well in date (it is) is there likely to be any other disruption I should be aware of?



I suspect you'll not notice too much difference, perhaps some initial confusion, but the impact will be slow to discern.

I recall travelling before we were in the Common Market... yes nice shiny blue passport, but because the economy was fucked, you were only allowed to take I think £50 with you in cash.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 10:21:46
Something like 50 to 60 new signatures to this petition every second.

Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU (http://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584)

Interesting to see if it gets over 17 million...is there one started by the Brexiteers?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 10:28:38
That's kind of what I was thinking as well. I won't be the only person going away for Easter so the potential 3 month delay would certainly put a few minds at ease. Now with a no deal looking likely and the leave date being the end of this month I fear more carnage than usual at the airports etc.

Although the guy that works for the Italian book printers said its all going to be ok, so he seems to know best :)

Where in Ireland are you off to?

I am booked to take 5 customers to the factory near Verona on the 15th April and thinking of tacking on a few days holiday - not particularly worried about going apart from the usual queues and my remaining voting customers are looking forward to it...passport up to date - go for it....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 10:28:49
Interesting to see if it gets over 17 million...is there one started by the Brexiteers?

Not that I am aware of, they are presently walking from Jarrow to London somewhat missing the point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 10:30:50
Not that I am aware of, they are presently walking from Jarrow to London somewhat missing the point.

I read about that yesterday, I think there is only 100 or so of them. I presume Farage isn't going the whole way?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 10:36:23
I read about that yesterday, I think there is only 100 or so of them. I presume Farage isn't going the whole way?

No Farage flew up to the start (strangely reticent to reveal who paid for the jet when asked by the media) where there were cameras and will no doubt be there at the end when cameras are also present.

The highlight so far was on Sunday when the route included crossing the Transporter Bridge in Middlesbrough, only for them to arrive and find it closed (as it is every Sunday - planning really isn't their thing is it!) necessitating a 5 mile detour for the poor buggers who have paid £50 for Farages vanity project.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 10:44:59
This is quite an interesting piece, which rather supports the opinion that much of the problem with Brexit is that there is little consensus of what it really means....

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/mps-admit-the-real-problem-with-brexit/21/03/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 10:57:23
The only way to find consensus (or 'bring the country together' as politicians are fond of saying) is to find some kind of middle ground that involves leaving the EU but also recognises the slim margin of the vote.  But finding that middle ground precisely what Theresa May’s intransigent approach to this process prevents.  In her heart (I'm assuming she has one, somewhere), she will know that the indicative votes proposed by many have to be the way forward - but that would mean putting the country before her own party.  And she's shown no sign of doing that to date.

She is the problem here, not the solution.  Her statement yesterday evening was breath-taking for a number of reasons, with a complete lack of self-awareness being top of the list.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 10:58:55
Interesting to see if it gets over 17 million...is there one started by the Brexiteers?

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 11:25:14
Petitions is down for maintenance
We know about it and we're working on it.

Please try again later.

you have to laugh!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 11:31:56
maintenance eh? that's what they want you to think..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 11:40:57
It's been up and down since last night. Maybe the sheer number of votes is making it struggle?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 11:41:27
The only way to find consensus (or 'bring the country together' as politicians are fond of saying) is to find some kind of middle ground that involves leaving the EU but also recognises the slim margin of the vote.  But finding that middle ground precisely what Theresa May’s intransigent approach to this process prevents.  In her heart (I'm assuming she has one, somewhere), she will know that the indicative votes proposed by many have to be the way forward - but that would mean putting the country before her own party.  And she's shown no sign of doing that to date.

She is the problem here, not the solution.  Her statement yesterday evening was breath-taking for a number of reasons, with a complete lack of self-awareness being top of the list.

1,269,501 is NOT a slim margin.

The economics can be sorted out after we leave the EU. It is a strategic decision to leave the pathway to a political union with EU. How we relate to the EU & other entities can be decided when we are independent.

As for worrying about your holidays, tours etc. I am sure you will cope. I am travelling to Brussels on 29th March & will piss over the pissing boy there as a mark of respect.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 11:48:21
We don`t want to stop trading with Europe or stop Europeans working here or going on holidays or any of the related stuff that goes with being so close brings up - we just don`t want to be part of a Federal government - isn`t that why people voted leave. Not complicated quite simple...

I now expect a tirade of yes but what about this and that - I will be surprised if anyone over the age of 25 will ever vote again so maybe a Federal unelected by us government is actually the answer...ffs someone sort this out...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 12:00:29
Where in Ireland are you off to?
Galway. Or the Arrivals lounge at Dublin airport, depending on how fucked up everything gets :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 12:03:11
We don`t want to stop trading with Europe or stop Europeans working here or going on holidays or any of the related stuff that goes with being so close brings up - we just don`t want to be part of a Federal government - isn`t that why people voted leave. Not complicated quite simple...
The principle is indeed quite simple. Although lots of people voted leave for lots of different reasons. So that isn't so simple. And disentangling 40 years of trade relations and legislation also isn't simple. Going into all that without a plan is deeply simple (in the old fashioned sense of the word) as are the vainglorious egotist politicians who told people it would be simple.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 12:04:45
Galway. Or the Arrivals lounge at Dublin airport, depending on how fucked up everything gets :)

It might be worth taking passports... as whether the old free movement between GB and Ireland, will still stand after the 29th or a slightly later no deal date, probably needs some legal clarification.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 12:11:52

As for worrying about your holidays, tours etc. I am sure you will cope. I am travelling to Brussels on 29th March & will piss over the pissing boy there as a mark of respect.

Can't beat the old 'Brits abroad' behaviour can you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 12:11:52
1,269,501 is NOT a slim margin.


2% swing. Add in the number of ex-pats that pay taxes but wrongly couldn't vote and the scales balance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 12:12:49
Galway. Or the Arrivals lounge at Dublin airport, depending on how fucked up everything gets :)

you are in for a treat! I got married in Galway so I am probably biased but its a cracking place and the Guinness is top class.

You'll have great craic!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 12:16:33
1,269,501 is NOT a slim margin.

The economics can be sorted out after we leave the EU. It is a strategic decision to leave the pathway to a political union with EU. How we relate to the EU & other entities can be decided when we are independent.

As for worrying about your holidays, tours etc. I am sure you will cope. I am travelling to Brussels on 29th March & will piss over the pissing boy there as a mark of respect.

A winning majority of 1.8% is a slim majority, but I’m sure you know that


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 12:24:58
1,269,501 is NOT a slim margin.


Yes, it is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 13:10:48
It might be worth taking passports... as whether the old free movement between GB and Ireland, will still stand after the 29th or a slightly later no deal date, probably needs some legal clarification.
Everyone is taking passports and has been warned to ensure they are not within 6 months of expiry, in line with HMG advice


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 13:30:54
We don`t want to stop trading with Europe or stop Europeans working here or going on holidays or any of the related stuff that goes with being so close brings up - we just don`t want to be part of a Federal government - isn`t that why people voted leave. Not complicated quite simple...

I now expect a tirade of yes but what about this and that - I will be surprised if anyone over the age of 25 will ever vote again so maybe a Federal unelected by us government is actually the answer...ffs someone sort this out...

I can assure you that some people who voted leave did so precisely to stop Europeans coming into the UK to work.  They also had next to no knowledge about the EU political machine.  I could also well imagine people were keen to ensure their Banana's could ne as curved as we'd like them to be - daft, but don't underestimate the drip, drip of urban myth reporting that has happened over several decades.  The stupidity is - if they just said the EU is good for us BUT it does mean giving up sovereignty eventually, people would still have voted to Leave but for a sensible reason.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 13:49:00
You lot never got over losing the egg & spoon race at school, did you?

If only you had come round & supported the narrow 1.26 MILLION majority, the UK would have been able to concentrate on many other matters other than UKEXIT. But you, yes YOU (you know who you are) have kept us wading in treacle all this time. We leave on 29th March 2019. Get over it.

For the record: I don't want federal government. And I love pizza.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 14:01:48
You voted for Brexit.

I voted against it.

So the ****fest that is Brexit is my fault, and not yours?

Oh dear.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 14:23:03
Ha ha, good lord!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 14:29:45
Do we have a clone of SRK in our midst?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 14:40:35
17m voted for it.  16m voted against it.  14m didn't know or didn't care.  No fucking way should there be a major change on such slim margins.

And fuck you.  Im not over it.  My children are still young and going to face the consequences of what you lot decided for us.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 14:51:01
I love the 'its not a success because you didn't believe enough' argument, proper mental!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 15:01:44
Everyone is taking passports and has been warned to ensure they are not within 6 months of expiry, in line with HMG advice

Right.  Definitely annoying for those used to passport free travel to Ireland.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 15:03:38
Right.  Definitely annoying for those used to passport free travel to Ireland.
It's not massive tbh. If the worst that happens is that we have to take passports, I'd say that's a pretty good result.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 15:04:52
I love the 'its not a success because you didn't believe enough' argument, proper mental!
If we all just hold hands, squeeze our eyes shut ever so tightly and really, really *believe* then wonderful things will happen and we won't have to worry about the complete absence of planning or any form of clue. C'mon Dorothy, BELIEVE!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 15:08:17
It's not massive tbh. If the worst that happens is that we have to take passports, I'd say that's a pretty good result.

Well clearly both bits of Ireland are going to be in the shit over this, but the average Brit doesn't care... polls have revealed that Brexiteers are happy enough for the 6 counties to join the other 26, if it enables Brexit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 15:10:48
Well clearly both bits of Ireland are going to be in the shit over this, but the average Brit doesn't care... polls have revealed that Brexiteers are happy enough for the 6 counties to join the other 26, if it enables Brexit

The problem May has is that the real power behind the throne would not accept this in any way shape or form....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 15:20:08
The problem May has is that the real power behind the throne would not accept this in any way shape or form....

Trump or Putin?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 16:04:36
Trump or Putin?

:D

In other news JCB have donated another £15 grand to the oaf Johnson's leadership bid. That's it, I'm never buying another digger from them again!
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/21/jcb-backs-boris-johnson-leadership-conservatives-gift


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 16:40:10
:D

In other news JCB have donated another £15 grand to the oaf Johnson's leadership bid. That's it, I'm never buying another digger from them again!
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/21/jcb-backs-boris-johnson-leadership-conservatives-gift

When you're in a hole...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 16:57:04
Trump or Putin?


I was thinking more of mad Arlene.....

In other news its back to the EU cap in hand later, May will be giving a speech (which from previous examples will just see her blowing any sympathy out of the room and pissing everyone else off) and then she leaves the room and our fate lies entirely in the hands of the EU, that's not the taking back control that we were sold is it?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 17:25:33
The problem May has is that the real power behind the throne would not accept this in any way shape or form....
I thought juncker and tusk would be chuffed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 22:40:45
You lot never got over losing the egg & spoon race at school, did you?

If only you had come round & supported the narrow 1.26 MILLION majority, the UK would have been able to concentrate on many other matters other than UKEXIT. But you, yes YOU (you know who you are) have kept us wading in treacle all this time. We leave on 29th March 2019. Get over it.

For the record: I don't want federal government. And I love pizza.


Fucking weirdo!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 23:16:50
So may yet again has been told by her masters what to do next.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, March 21, 2019, 23:23:02
They've given a get out extension.

May chose to go back with her deal asking for yet more time.

it's her strategy. her failure


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Friday, March 22, 2019, 05:05:22
I've never lived in a constituency where the local MP is Prime Minister. I wonder what it will be like?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 22, 2019, 09:02:43
I've never lived in a constituency where the local MP is Prime Minister. I wonder what it will be like?

I lived in Thatcher's constituency for 4 years before she became PM. Sadly it was 4 years between GE's so never had the satisfaction of voting directly against her.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Friday, March 22, 2019, 09:25:22
Anyone know when the German car manufacturers are going to start kicking off about "No Deal"??

Their UK counterparts have been a lot more gobby about it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Friday, March 22, 2019, 09:52:50
I lived in Thatcher's constituency for 4 years before she became PM. Sadly it was 4 years between GE's so never had the satisfaction of voting directly against her.
Ah Finchley?

So the EU have started to blink. What a bastard. I'll have to trash all my 29th March Independence Day memorabilia I had made up e.g. mugs, plates etc. Bit like Edward VIII's coronation tat I guess.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 22, 2019, 09:54:45
So may yet again has been told by her masters what to do next.
Yeah, that whole taking back control thing is really panning out nicely


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 22, 2019, 10:01:48
Yeah, that whole taking back control thing is really panning out nicely

Much the same as the whole sovereignty bollocks which has been shown to be all a sham after Farage has been lobbying foreign leaders to act against the wishes of the UK government.....

Its almost like they all lied!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 22, 2019, 10:04:34
Ah Finchley?

So the EU have started to blink. What a bastard. I'll have to trash all my 29th March Independence Day memorabilia I had made up e.g. mugs, plates etc. Bit like Edward VIII's coronation tat I guess.

Yes I'm sure there will be a handful of others like you having to adjust their plans. I trust the mugs and plates were made up in Burslem and not in Italy, Spain or Portugal  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, March 22, 2019, 10:06:34
The EU are doing what they can to avoid no deal. It does make me wonder if we had played this card from the onset and been serious about it, would we be in a different place and actually flexing our sovereignty rather than being the EUs bitch. I'm pretty sure we'd have a better deal. I think May will be gone within the next 10 days - its a question of whether the deal goes through as the price for her fucking off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 22, 2019, 10:18:06
It really does feel like the end of May's tenure, now.  Delicious description of the awfulness of her position by Rafael Behr in the Guardian this morning:

The terms of the extension are not drafted for the prime minister’s benefit. They contain a message from the EU direct to the House of Commons. In crude terms: piss or get off the pot. If you want to leave with a deal, vote for the damned deal. If you are foolish enough to leave without a deal, do not blame us. Have a couple more weeks to think about it. But if you want something else, a referendum or a softer Brexit, work it out soon. And then send someone who isn’t May to talk to us about it.

EU leaders cannot say explicitly that they no longer want to deal with the current prime minister. Urging regime change is beyond the pale of normal diplomacy among democratic states. But there is no effort to conceal the frustration in May or the evacuation of confidence in her as a negotiating partner. The one thing everyone in Brussels, Berlin and Paris had most wanted to avoid from an article 50 extension was giving May a licence to carry on behaving as she has done for what feels like an eternity. They could no longer tolerate the hollow shell of a prime minister shuttling back and forth between Tory hardliners demanding fantasy Brexits and Brussels negotiators who trade in realities.

There is a difference between patience with the prime minister and readiness to help her country navigate through its current crisis. There are still stores of goodwill available for Britain in Brussels, but they cannot be unlocked by May.


I don't see the EU's position as weakness, so much as the 27 heads of state wearily coming together to do her job for her.  The extension is clever politics from them.  They have not budged an inch on the terms of the deal.

As a Remainer, I still think I understand the frustration of Leavers who wonder what might have happened if there was a more resolute Leaver at the top of government.  It's tempting to imagine where we would be now if we had gone all out for a No Deal strategy at the outset (not that there was ever a mandate for that).  But I honestly don't think that it would have made any difference.  Tempting as it might be to blame the entire mess on Theresa May, that's too simplistic.  We were always going to be the junior partner to these negotiations - just as we are always going to be the junior partner in any future EU/UK relationship.  All we are seeing now is the chickens coming home.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 22, 2019, 10:18:09
The EU are doing what they can to avoid no deal. It does make me wonder if we had played this card from the onset and been serious about it, would we be in a different place and actually flexing our sovereignty rather than being the EUs bitch. I'm pretty sure we'd have a better deal. I think May will be gone within the next 10 days - its a question of whether the deal goes through as the price for her fucking off.

The Tories are going to have a job to find a credible leader out of their line up... May originally got the job as she seemed a safe pair of hand, bit like Rees Mogg's nanny, someone who'd clear up the mess after the naughty boys have gone home.

We had the old strong and stable line at the 17 election.  It needs someone competent in politics... and they're a bit difficult to find. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, March 22, 2019, 10:21:13
Ah Finchley?

So the EU have started to blink. What a bastard. I'll have to trash all my 29th March Independence Day memorabilia I had made up e.g. mugs, plates etc. Bit like Edward VIII's coronation tat I guess.
Sorry about your commemorative mugs.

My plans to go down the Winchester Arms on 29th March to wait for it to all blow over are still very much on.  Looks like we might have to dig in.  You'd be welcome to join us.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dogs on Friday, March 22, 2019, 10:31:51
The Tories are going to have a job to find a credible leader out of their line up... May originally got the job as she seemed a safe pair of hand, bit like Rees Mogg's nanny, someone who'd clear up the mess after the naughty boys have gone home.

We had the old strong and stable line at the 17 election.  It needs someone competent in politics... and they're a bit difficult to find. 

I've a nagging feeling that they're going to go for an outsider, not Gove, not Johnson - more likely a Geoffrey Cox.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 22, 2019, 10:34:13
The Tories are going to have a job to find a credible leader out of their line up... May originally got the job as she seemed a safe pair of hand, bit like Rees Mogg's nanny, someone who'd clear up the mess after the naughty boys have gone home.

We had the old strong and stable line at the 17 election.  It needs someone competent in politics... and they're a bit difficult to find. 
The old rules no longer apply, we're in a post-truth, post-fact world where no-one likes experts or even competence. Johnson it is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, March 22, 2019, 10:51:57
I've a nagging feeling that they're going to go for an outsider, not Gove, not Johnson - more likely a Geoffrey Cox.
That would be poetic. A cunt followed by a Cox.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 22, 2019, 10:56:01
It really does feel like the end of May's tenure, now.  Delicious description of the awfulness of her position by Rafael Behr in the Guardian this morning:

The terms of the extension are not drafted for the prime minister’s benefit. They contain a message from the EU direct to the House of Commons. In crude terms: piss or get off the pot. If you want to leave with a deal, vote for the damned deal. If you are foolish enough to leave without a deal, do not blame us. Have a couple more weeks to think about it. But if you want something else, a referendum or a softer Brexit, work it out soon. And then send someone who isn’t May to talk to us about it.

EU leaders cannot say explicitly that they no longer want to deal with the current prime minister. Urging regime change is beyond the pale of normal diplomacy among democratic states. But there is no effort to conceal the frustration in May or the evacuation of confidence in her as a negotiating partner. The one thing everyone in Brussels, Berlin and Paris had most wanted to avoid from an article 50 extension was giving May a licence to carry on behaving as she has done for what feels like an eternity. They could no longer tolerate the hollow shell of a prime minister shuttling back and forth between Tory hardliners demanding fantasy Brexits and Brussels negotiators who trade in realities.

There is a difference between patience with the prime minister and readiness to help her country navigate through its current crisis. There are still stores of goodwill available for Britain in Brussels, but they cannot be unlocked by May.


I don't see the EU's position as weakness, so much as the 27 heads of state wearily coming together to do her job for her.  The extension is clever politics from them.  They have not budged an inch on the terms of the deal.

As a Remainer, I still think I understand the frustration of Leavers who wonder what might have happened if there was a more resolute Leaver at the top of government.  It's tempting to imagine where we would be now if we had gone all out for a No Deal strategy at the outset (not that there was ever a mandate for that).  But I honestly don't think that it would have made any difference.  Tempting as it might be to blame the entire mess on Theresa May, that's too simplistic.  We were always going to be the junior partner to these negotiations - just as we are always going to be the junior partner in any future EU/UK relationship.  All we are seeing now is the chickens coming home.

Its been suggested from an EU source that yesterday evening went something like...

May asks for extension to 30/6.

EU make a draft offer of extension to the 23/5.

May addresses the EU for 90 minutes.

EU change their offer to 7/5

She is a liability.

To be fair to her (and it pains me to say this) I don't think she or anyone else could have got a better deal for the simple facts that a) the unicorn scattered utopia promised by the Leave campaign was never achievable as it immediately fell foul of the 4 tests and thus the EU was never in a month of sundays going to agree to any of it and b) as the EU have shown now (And has been clear for months if not years) they are prepared to go with a no deal if it avoids throwing Ireland under the bus and retains the EU project, people can witttering on about Farage or Johnson getting a better deal but the only leverage they would have had is to threaten to flounce off and the EU were clear that so be it (plus the EU seems to think that both are monster bellends which would likely not helped).

James O'Brien noted yesterday (I think) 'Revoking Article 50 would only ignore the votes of people who consciously voted for the current chaos - i.e. nobody except a clutch of disaster capitalists and hedge funders.'

We are now a two bit island with a knackered democracy, led by people with authoritarian tendencies, little international power and a completely busted reputation for honesty, if Suez is held up as a national humiliation this goes 1000 time further than that!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, March 22, 2019, 12:10:45
'Independence Day' if and when it happens must be worth a public holiday at least for the long suffering masses?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, March 22, 2019, 12:13:37
The terms of the extension are not drafted for the prime minister’s benefit. They contain a message from the EU direct to the House of Commons. In crude terms: piss or get off the pot. If you want to leave with a deal, vote for the damned deal. If you are foolish enough to leave without a deal, do not blame us. Have a couple more weeks to think about it. But if you want something else, a referendum or a softer Brexit, work it out soon. And then send someone who isn’t May to talk to us about it.

Exactly


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, March 22, 2019, 12:30:32
James O'Brien noted yesterday (I think) 'Revoking Article 50 would only ignore the votes of people who consciously voted for the current chaos - i.e. nobody except a clutch of disaster capitalists and hedge funders.'

That's a very inaccurate statement.  Mr O'Brien doubtless thinks he has been very clever by inserting the word 'consciously'.  

In fact revoking article 50 would, of course, also be ignoring the votes of the 17.5 million people who are not disaster capitalists or hedge fund managers but nevertheless voted to leave.  Some of them may be dismayed by the current chaos but that does not necessarily mean that they regret their original vote or that we are entitled to ignore that vote.

Revoking article 50 would also be ignoring the wishes of those of us who voted to remain, were dismayed by the decision to leave, but believe that overturning democracy when it doesn't suit you is just plain wrong and furthermore that we are too far gone down this road to turn back without causing even more chaos.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, March 22, 2019, 12:39:17
Its also just fodder that leavers are as thick as shit and the current chaos could have been predicted. Yadda, yadda, yadda - feeding the remainer self righteous indignation that other people dare have a different opinion and consequently must be thick as they are incapable of the intellectual superiority of the argument.
It yet again merges the vote to leave with the total fucking ineptitude in trying to do so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 22, 2019, 12:44:13
That's a very inaccurate statement.  Mr O'Brien doubtless thinks he has been very clever by inserting the word 'consciously'. 

In fact revoking article 50 would, of course, also be ignoring the votes of the 17.5 million people who are not disaster capitalists or hedge fund managers but nevertheless voted to leave.  Some of them may be dismayed by the current chaos but that does not necessarily mean that they regret their original vote or that we are entitled to ignore that vote.

Revoking article 50 would also be ignoring the wishes of those of us who voted to remain, were dismayed by the decision to leave, but believe that overturning democracy when it doesn't suit you is just plain wrong and furthermore that we are too far gone down this road to turn back without causing even more chaos.   
Completely this


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 22, 2019, 12:46:30
Its also just fodder that leavers are as thick as shit and the current chaos could have been predicted.
They're not the same. I don't think leave voters are thick as shit by any means, but the current chaos was eminently predictable because neither side had a plan as to how to go about leaving. Granted May has made a particular horse's arse of it, but the notion that the oaf Johnson, the charlatan Farage or Rees-Mogg would have done any better is laughable


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, March 22, 2019, 12:50:58
They're not the same. I don't think leave voters are thick as shit by any means, but the current chaos was eminently predictable because neither side had a plan as to how to go about leaving. Granted May has made a particular horse's arse of it, but the notion that the oaf Johnson, the charlatan Farage or Rees-Mogg would have done any better is laughable
We'll never know as May went with a couple of civil servants and excluded everyone lese regardless of whether they had a plan or not. The notion that that the oaf Johnson, the charlatan Farage or Rees-Mogg would have done any worse is equally as laughable


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 22, 2019, 12:51:10
They're not the same. I don't think leave voters are thick as shit by any means, but the current chaos was eminently predictable because neither side had a plan as to how to go about leaving. Granted May has made a particular horse's arse of it, but the notion that the oaf Johnson, the charlatan Farage or Rees-Mogg would have done any better is laughable

Much as I hate to link the Guardian, this is an interesting yet bleak watch...... https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-but-westminster-a-big-day-in-the-north-video

Sad thing is that the polls still show that the party which has caused much of this are still likely to get voted in should an election be held.

They're not the same. I don't think leave voters are thick as shit by any means, but the current chaos was eminently predictable because neither side had a plan as to how to go about leaving. Granted May has made a particular horse's arse of it, but the notion that the oaf Johnson, the charlatan Farage or Rees-Mogg would have done any better is laughable

Those who you mention have continued to wield such power that their utopia was achievable that may was stuck between a rock and a hard place without the nous or nuance to actually do anything bar pandering to the ERG, whilst they bray in the background persuading people how easy it should be, never putting their necks on the line.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, March 22, 2019, 12:51:30
fine. May's deal goes down and we try very quickly to agree a softer brexit and then seek a long extension to implement it.

if we don't get agreement in the house, hard brexit in April.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 22, 2019, 12:53:43
We'll never know as May went with a couple of civil servants and excluded everyone lese regardless of whether they had a plan or not. The notion that that the oaf Johnson, the charlatan Farage or Rees-Mogg would have done any worse is equally as laughable
That's not exactly a high bar. Given that the ERG have driven much of May's agenda throughout this I think we have a pretty good idea of how they'd have done.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 22, 2019, 12:55:20
Revocation of Article 50 won't happen.  You're along way off having a majority in favour of it, largely for the reasons above.  But I think the reason it's being talked about at all is that May is systematically closing off the debate around alternatives to her 'deal'.  There is a huge body of opinion that is opposed to a No Deal exit...and if you keep damming up possible exit routes (incl Customs arrangements, alignment with Single Market, EEA membership) by hindering indicative votes to ascertain support for these, that water has got to flow somewhere.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 22, 2019, 12:57:09
We'll never know as May went with a couple of civil servants and excluded everyone lese regardless of whether they had a plan or not. The notion that that the oaf Johnson, the charlatan Farage or Rees-Mogg would have done any worse is equally as laughable

Hang on Davis and Raab were Brexit Sec, Johnson was Home Sec, Dr Fox was Int Trade, Gove was in cabinet all with the ability to actually achieve something and all chose to run away and hide when it became clear that they had promised the world and could deliver nowt an it got too tricky. May doesn't help herself by being a clueless control freak but to let them off the hook just rewrites history.

Anyway we all deserve the pain, we voted for it.... https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1109052365850714113


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 22, 2019, 13:00:44
Much as I hate to link the Guardian, this is an interesting yet bleak watch...... https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-but-westminster-a-big-day-in-the-north-video

John Harris is always worthy of a listen or read.

Although Tory incompetence is to blame for the present mess.... they couldn't have achieved it without the compliance of Brexit voters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 22, 2019, 13:02:05
Hang on Davis and Raab were Brexit Sec, Johnson was Home Sec, Dr Fox was Int Trade, Gove was in cabinet all with the ability to actually achieve something and all chose to run away and hide when it became clear that they had promised the world and could deliver nowt an it got too tricky. May doesn't help herself by being a clueless control freak but to let them off the hook just rewrites history.
I made precisely this point last time chalkies tried claiming it would all have been fine if Johnson, Rees-Mogg et al had been allowed to run the show (shortly before RM's deputy showed himself up as a towering intellectual giant with Will Self). He didn't respond then, don't expect him to respond now. It's a shit show, was always going to be a shit show, but we are where we are, let's just get on with it and take the consequences of what we as a nation voted for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 22, 2019, 13:02:28
John Harris is always worthy of a listen or read.

Although Tory incompetence is to blame for the present mess.... they couldn't have achieved it without the compliance of Brexit voters.
Or the ineptitude of the opposition, let's not forget


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 22, 2019, 13:05:42
It's a shit show, was always going to be a shit show, but we are where we are, let's just get on with it and take the consequences of what we as a nation voted for.

Agree with that... I said a while back that the logic of the ref vote was no deal.... so bring on Operation Yellowhammer, (incidentally why lumber a charming little bird with the name) I'm looking forward to Williamson's troops on the street and martial law.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, March 22, 2019, 13:14:18
I don't see why we have to take the shit show without checking it with the people - none of whom voted for a shitshow as far as I know.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, March 22, 2019, 13:16:04
Agree with that... I said a while back that the logic of the ref vote was no deal.... so bring on Operation Yellowhammer, (incidentally why lumber a charming little bird with the name) I'm looking forward to Williamson's troops on the street and martial law.

Gavin Williamson strikes me as somebody who is just itching for a bit of military confrontation.
Hope he's not in the frame for next Tory party leader and PM.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 22, 2019, 13:34:02
Agree with that... I said a while back that the logic of the ref vote was no deal.... so bring on Operation Yellowhammer, (incidentally why lumber a charming little bird with the name) I'm looking forward to Williamson's troops on the street and martial law.

I think there are two operations, Toy soldiers Williamsons MoD one is Redfold... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47658403

It I'd known we were actually voting to allow an evermore authoritarian regime to unleash troops on the streets I would perhaps of concentrated a little harder!  :hmmm:

What a time to be alive..... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47659410


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 22, 2019, 14:42:19
Or the ineptitude of the opposition, let's not forget

The likes of the Mail and other Tory rags have tried their best to blame Corbyn for the mess, and certainly there are always those taken in by their propaganda.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 22, 2019, 14:46:39
The likes of the Mail and other Tory rags have tried their best to blame Corbyn for the mess, and certainly there are always those taken in by their propaganda.
Oh fuck off. Any halfway competent opposition would be in power by now, but Corbyn has dithered on Brexit and allowed himself to be hamstrung by his own student posturings and his unwillingness to tackle some of the nastier sections of his "base". Labour have abjectly failed to provide meaningful opposition, just as the govt have abjectly failed to provide leadership.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 22, 2019, 14:59:03
Oh fuck off. Any halfway competent opposition would be in power by now, but Corbyn has dithered on Brexit and allowed himself to be hamstrung by his own student posturings and his unwillingness to tackle some of the nastier sections of his "base". Labour have abjectly failed to provide meaningful opposition, just as the govt have abjectly failed to provide leadership.

To be fair Corbyn is managing to lag behind the political powerhouse of 'Don't Know'  in who would make the best PM polls. It was summed up this week when he had his strop over Umunna attending the meeting with May (storming out in a huff despite  No.10 confirming to the media about 3 hours earlier that Umunna had been invited).

Led to the pathetic image of him saying historically (rightly) that you should negotiate with terrorists to sort out the state of impasses but then refusing to do so with a fellow politician, its not a good lock and does not need anyone to spin it that way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 22, 2019, 15:06:25
Oh fuck off. Any halfway competent opposition would be in power by now, but Corbyn has dithered on Brexit and allowed himself to be hamstrung by his own student posturings and his unwillingness to tackle some of the nastier sections of his "base". Labour have abjectly failed to provide meaningful opposition, just as the govt have abjectly failed to provide leadership.

It may have escaped your notice that there was a GE in June 2017, the Tories narrowly won. Both main parties stood on a manifesto pledge of honouring the leave EU ref vote and received 82% of the vote.  As winners the Tories are charged with achieving that pledge... however desirable a Labour government might be, it cannot just be formed while there is another one in place however incompetent.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 22, 2019, 15:09:47
It may have escaped your notice that there was a GE in June 2017, the Tories narrowly won. Both main parties stood on a manifesto pledge of honouring the leave EU ref vote and received 82% of the vote.  As winners the Tories are charged with achieving that pledge... however desirable a Labour government might be, it cannot just be formed while there is another one in place however incompetent.
Patronising cunt. "It may have escaped your notice" that however incompetent the current administration are, they are still leading Labour by between 4-6 points in every poll going. It takes some level of ineptness to be less popular than Teresa May's shower of shit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 22, 2019, 15:14:30
Easy, fellas.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 22, 2019, 15:14:58
Patronising cunt. "It may have escaped your notice" that however incompetent the current administration are, they are still leading Labour by between 4-6 points in every poll going.

In the GE of June 17, the Tories were 20% in front in polls, it didn't pan out that way once campaigning had started.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 22, 2019, 15:34:49
In the GE of June 17, the Tories were 20% in front in polls, it didn't pan out that way once campaigning had started.

Possibly so, but at that stage Corbyn was reasonably successfully pulling the wool over (especially younger) peoples eyes regarding Brexit, and the whole new kind of politics clap trap that ship has sailed spectacularly and he has lost an entire generation or two of voters who have seen that despite all the bullshit he is as cynical and ambitious as the rest of them and equally ideologically driven and clueless.

Hell at least you expect the Tories to screw people over, 'a jobs first brexit' even May would struggle to deliver such nonsense with a straight face.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 22, 2019, 15:47:36
Possibly so, but at that stage Corbyn was reasonably successfully pulling the wool over (especially younger) peoples eyes regarding Brexit, and the whole new kind of politics clap trap that ship has sailed spectacularly and he has lost an entire generation or two of voters who have seen that despite all the bullshit he is as cynical and ambitious as the rest of them and equally ideologically driven and clueless.

Hell at least you expect the Tories to screw people over, 'a jobs first brexit' even May would struggle to deliver such nonsense with a straight face.

Here's Labour take on Brexit at the 17 election....

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/

 people though voted for the Tory version and that's what they're getting, had they voted in sufficient numbers for this, things could have been different... Corbyn couldn't effect the Labour pledge from the opposition benches.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 22, 2019, 16:14:06
Here's Labour take on Brexit at the 17 election....

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/

 people though voted for the Tory version and that's what they're getting, had they voted in sufficient numbers for this, things could have been different... Corbyn couldn't effect the Labour pledge from the opposition benches.

He could have done a damn sight more to lesson the impacts of the Tory version when one considers they are a propped up minority government, his failure to do so and just to continue playing student politics will forever be his tarnished legacy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, March 22, 2019, 16:31:49
Corbyn is fucking mess

Starmer will be the next labour prime minister


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 22, 2019, 16:36:30
He could have done a damn sight more to lesson the impacts of the Tory version when one considers they are a propped up minority government, his failure to do so and just to continue playing student politics will forever be his tarnished legacy.

We don't yet know what the Tory version is, or what its impacts will be. 



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 22, 2019, 16:43:55
Corbyn is fucking mess

Starmer will be the next labour prime minister

Possible, but Keir is more a lawyer than politician...  Ed Milliband would have made a very good PM.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, March 22, 2019, 16:59:15
If Labour were clever they'd bin Corbyn, their worst leader since Foot, and put Benn in charge on a remain ticket. They'd need to sort out the Momentum pieces of shit and re-engage with the likes of Frank Field and some of TIG. Starmer is a smarmy cunt.
Fuck knows what the Tories can do. They've got a lot of internal mess to sort out following the most inept prime minister in my lifetime.   


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 22, 2019, 17:01:08
I suspect we're seeing the the beginning of the end for both parties as we know them and the start of a much broader selection of smaller parties. Ironically, the Brexit debate could be what kills off our two party FPP system and starts us on the path to more European style broad-based coalitions


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 22, 2019, 17:31:28
If Labour were clever they'd bin Corbyn, their worst leader since Foot, and put Benn in charge on a remain ticket. They'd need to sort out the Momentum pieces of shit and re-engage with the likes of Frank Field and some of TIG. Starmer is a smarmy cunt.
Fuck knows what the Tories can do. They've got a lot of internal mess to sort out following the most inept prime minister in my lifetime.   

21 months ago Labour under Corbyn achieved the biggest swing at a GE since Attlee in 45...... 9.6%.

Unfortunately not enough to win, but enough to prevent the Tories riding roughshod over the British people.... the purpose of opposition.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: woolster on Friday, March 22, 2019, 17:42:12
21 months ago Labour under Corbyn achieved the biggest swing at a GE since Attlee in 45...... 9.6%.

Unfortunately not enough to win, but enough to prevent the Tories riding roughshod over the British people.... the purpose of opposition.

true, but in the 21 months that have passed he has shown what an utter cock he really is


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 22, 2019, 18:08:48
true, but in the 21 months that have passed he has shown what an utter cock he really is

Would you care to share some examples of Corbyn's behaviour that merit your analysis?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, March 22, 2019, 18:22:04
If Labour were clever they'd bin Corbyn, their worst leader since Foot, and put Benn in charge on a remain ticket. They'd need to sort out the Momentum pieces of shit and re-engage with the likes of Frank Field and some of TIG. Starmer is a smarmy cunt.
Fuck knows what the Tories can do. They've got a lot of internal mess to sort out following the most inept prime minister in my lifetime.   

I agree about Starmer. He is an opportunist lawyer waiting for Corbyn to get hung by his own petard and bang, you have Blair MK11


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 22, 2019, 18:30:31
I agree about Starmer. He is an opportunist lawyer waiting for Corbyn to get hung by his own petard and bang, you have Blair MK11

Keir is a very bright boy.... the sort you want on your team.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, March 22, 2019, 18:30:36
Would you care to share some examples of Corbyn's behaviour that merit your analysis?

Why should he? You rarely if ever answer questions thrown at at you. Still waiting for you to reveal whether you’ll be chipping in a few Roubles to the Trust ground purchase.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, March 22, 2019, 18:31:29
Keir is a very bright boy.... the sort you want on your team.

That I agree with, after all Corbyn and Abbott in the club someone has to do the joined up thinking. Oh he is also a millionaire as well. When you going to lynch him for having more than you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 22, 2019, 18:37:56
That I agree with, after all Corbyn and Abbott in the club someone has to do the joined up thinking. Oh he is also a millionaire as well. When you going to lynch him for having more than you?

These days millionaires are fairly thick on the ground.... the labour party has always been for the worker making the most of him/herself whether by ideas, cleverness or physical graft


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: woolster on Friday, March 22, 2019, 18:50:05
Would you care to share some examples of Corbyn's behaviour that merit your analysis?
terrorist-loving, Jew-baiting, for starters 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 22, 2019, 19:09:55
21 months ago Labour under Corbyn achieved the biggest swing at a GE since Attlee in 45...... 9.6%.

Unfortunately not enough to win, but enough to prevent the Tories riding roughshod over the British people.... the purpose of opposition.
In what way has he managed to hamper the Tories? Social care cuts? Education slashed? Police cutbacks? Universal Credit? The omnishambles that is Brexit? Selling off the NHS? He has not managed to stop any of this, instead he's allowed himself to be hamstrung by inaction and navel gazing over anti-Semitism and Venezuela, both easily avoided, and internal factionalism of his supporters which he has shown far more enthusiasm for than holding the govt to account, which is actually the job of the opposition.A job he has significantly failed at


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, March 22, 2019, 19:15:48
These days millionaires are fairly thick on the ground.... the labour party has always been for the worker making the most of him/herself whether by ideas, cleverness or physical graft

Bollocks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, March 22, 2019, 20:10:59
Polls aren’t perfect but the fact that Labour are trailing the worst government in living memory says everything you need to know about Corbyn’s leadership ability

Wasn’t a huge Ed Milliband guy, wanted David, however Labour would be taking advantage of the current situation if he was still at the helm


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Private Fraser on Friday, March 22, 2019, 20:26:10
It’s OK, Uri Geller has stepped in and offered his services in an open letter to May. Problem solved, then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 22, 2019, 22:04:02
It’s OK, Uri Geller has stepped in and offered his services in an open letter to May. Problem solved, then.
Think the MPs are all bent enough as it is without his help! What we really need is Gazza to rock up to No 10 with a bucket of chicken and a couple of six packs of lager


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Friday, March 22, 2019, 22:43:51
These days millionaires are fairly thick on the ground.... the labour party has always been for the worker making the most of him/herself whether by ideas, cleverness or physical graft

They used to be reg, until the war criminal decided he wanted to be a tory all but in name. Labour party are dead.So are the rest to be fair. Be funny when the next turn out is below 30%. except it wont really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 22, 2019, 23:28:47
See the Brexit go-slow on the M4 and M5 this evening which was going to "bring the country to it's knees" ... erm, didn't: this is the Bristol Post's summary of what a country on it's knees looks like:

"The protest appears to be over before it began in Bristol, with no disruption hitting the area at all.

Our sister website Cornwall Live has given the following insight into how the demonstration kicked off on the south coast.

About 10 vehicles set off along the A30. The vehicles, three of which were decorated in banners and flags, left the service station at Plusha at about 3.30pm.

No lorries took part.

Organisers initially said 25 people had signed up to take part in the rolling road block after the prime minister asked the European Union to delay the UK’s exit date beyond March 29.

Speaking at the start of the protest, organiser Ian Grindod said: “It was never going to be a massive event anyway.”

Things got worse for the demonstrators further along the A30, when police stopped nine vehicles and reported two motorists for inconsiderate driving."

On a par with Nigel's March #sadface


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 08:51:21
Would you care to share some examples of Corbyn's behaviour that merit your analysis?

Genuine question; are you at all aware of how much you undermine any good points you make by posting this kind of garbage?

I can't believe I am biting but here goes.  Latest example is walking out of No 10 because Chuka was there. A key accusation against his leadership is that he is more interested in gesture politics than actually  achieving anything for the British people.  That action fits that narrative perfectly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 09:53:24
There's clearly a smear campaign against Corbyn and I think 90% of the stick he gets is unwarranted.

But it's still obvious that the bloke's a wet blanket.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 09:59:32
This century’s Michael Foot. Unelectable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 11:07:58
Quote from: Flashheart
There's clearly a smear campaign against Corbyn and I think 90% of the stick he gets is unwarranted.

But it's still obvious that the bloke's a wet blanket.

spot on


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 11:31:08
Genuine question; are you at all aware of how much you undermine any good points you make by posting this kind of garbage?

I can't believe I am biting but here goes.  Latest example is walking out of No 10 because Chuka was there. A key accusation against his leadership is that he is more interested in gesture politics than actually  achieving anything for the British people.  That action fits that narrative perfectly.

As Flasher points out Corbyn is subject to a sustained campaign of smear.... it works, look at Ed Milliband painted as some sort of dangerous Marxist, or weird for the way he eats a bacon sandwich.  Would have made a perfectly good PM.

It's politics, a dirty business....

So you have given example Corbyn walked out of the meeting when realising he''d been stitched up... perhaps a misjudgement, but I'd have probably done the same, and not exactly crime of the century.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 12:16:45
This century’s Michael Foot. Unelectable.

Corbyn is no Michael Foot... look at the manifesto when we get an election.  Foot's 1983 Labour party was genuinely left wing. 

There will be little in the next Labour manifesto, which would raise an eyebrow, in any mainstream European Social/Christian Democratic Party.

The problem is that most things have lurched off to the right.... it's what happens after economic crash, hence why we live in dangerous times.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 12:58:02
Manifesto and reality and two different things. Corbyn has as much of a problem with Momentum as Foot did with Militant Tendency. He's certainly allowing he left wing free reign. More moderate candidates being deselected or moving to TIG. Whoever the next Labour leader is will need to sort out Momentum the way Kinnock did MT.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 13:24:20
Manifesto and reality and two different things. Corbyn has as much of a problem with Momentum as Foot did with Militant Tendency. He's certainly allowing he left wing free reign. More moderate candidates being deselected or moving to TIG. Whoever the next Labour leader is will need to sort out Momentum the way Kinnock did MT.

Within broad church parties there will always be sub groups... as I've argued elsewhere, on the continent PR allows these groupings to exist independently and enter coalitions, in our system the coalitions are with in the same tent.

There is little similarity between Momentum and the MT.  Momentum is attempting to create a grassroots party, given that historic ties between Labour and the trade Unions have been weakened.  In return for their efforts, it is expected that MP's as representatives of the party, do at least show some semblance of supporting the aims and are not just naked careerists.

The definition of left wing when seen from the right is very flexible.... I've said it before, but many Tory politicians of the 50's and 60's would be seen as dangerously left wing now, with their commitments to social housing and high spending on education.... once centrist views still holding sway in European social democracy, the sort of place where momentum are.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 19:59:43
So, as a million marched in London today to demand a 2nd referendum, the charlatan Farage addressed the massed ranks of 200 at a rally stop of the pro-Brexit march he's promoted but can't be bothered to actually march on. Pathetic.

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1109536157963030528

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1109499022111399936


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 20:15:16
So, as a million marched in London today to demand a 2nd referendum, the charlatan Farage addressed the massed ranks of 200 at a rally stop of the pro-Brexit march he's promoted but can't be bothered to actually march on. Pathetic.

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1109536157963030528

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1109499022111399936

And- your point is?

Sore losers marching for a democratic vote to be reversed because they didn’t get the result they wanted the last time.

People really are blind to what the EU is all about- it’s a protectionist racket that cares Not one jot for European citizens only it’s own gravy train.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 20:38:30
I think the way the EU have handled the UK over this highlights why people chose to leave in the first place.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 20:43:12
What, having a sembelance of an idea of what it wants??


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 20:44:54
Protecting the interests of 27 ahead of 1 who threw a tantrum?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 20:48:31
Quote from: 4D
I think the way the EU have handled the UK over this highlights why people chose to leave in the first place.


Yeah, bastards, ganging up on us like some collective of self interested parties.

Don't they know who we are.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 20:52:08
Quote from: pauld
So, as a million marched in London today to demand a 2nd referendum, the charlatan Farage addressed the massed ranks of 200 at a rally stop of the pro-Brexit march he's promoted but can't be bothered to actually march on. Pathetic.

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1109536157963030528 (https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1109536157963030528)

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1109499022111399936 (https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1109499022111399936)

Farage is such a prick.

As an aside, why has someone been marching with an Isle of Man flag?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 20:54:21
Farage is by far the most successful politician in my lifetime. Not bad for a prick with a following of swivel eyed loons.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 21:06:05
Protecting the interests of 27 ahead of 1 who threw a tantrum?

Yeah, who would've thought it! We proverbially spat the dummy out but still wanted to take slices of the cake. Anyone who suggests that the EU have handled the scenario poorly, needs looking at. It's not their scenario to sort (in the main), yet they are having to because we have a PM who is stubborn af but for all the wrong reasons.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Sunday, March 24, 2019, 13:28:50
And- your point is?

Sore losers marching for a democratic vote to be reversed because they didn’t get the result they wanted the last time.

People really are blind to what the EU is all about- it’s a protectionist racket that cares Not one jot for European citizens only it’s own gravy train.



Sore losers that protest in the right way by organising a peaceful march, which they are allowed to do because we live in a democracy. What is the problem with that?  You just have to look at the social media reaction to the protest by Brexiteers, spitting bile and angst towards anyone that dares to have a different opinion to them. 

We should leave, because the democratic vote says so (even though it was a flawed vote and rigged by outside influences) but the reaction to people just making their feelings known by peaceful protesting shows the Brexiteer camp in their true light.

Think it is a shit show now?  This only shows that it is going to get a lot worse when we leave..  Lunatics in charge of the asylum..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Sunday, March 24, 2019, 13:52:06
Outside influences works both ways. Soros allegedly providing plenty influence to remainers. Obama back of the queue, the IMF etc trying to influence a remain vote. I'm not sure how one set of external influences is worse than another. Also, I don't know one person who was swayed either way by any external influences.
Both sides fought dirty and both sides proved they were unworthy of the voters trust.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Sunday, March 24, 2019, 16:14:47
Still doesn’t change the reason for my post.  You pick on the two words and come up with a “but what about” as a reasoned argument.  Isn’t that what Brexiteers regularly accuse remainers of?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, March 24, 2019, 17:32:01
Farage is by far the most successful politician in my lifetime. Not bad for a prick with a following of swivel eyed loons.
He hasn't even managed to get elected to parliament. That makes him less successful than Robert Buckland


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Sunday, March 24, 2019, 19:03:01
There are loads of things I hate about this whole shit show, but of it all, it's the idea that people won or lost the referendum. That phrasing makes everything so tribal. And in the end, everyone but the super rich will "lose". Just objectively look at where we are, what's on offer. Is this really good? The future looks genuinely bleak. Take the circumstances as they are now... ask if it's what is best for the majority of people living here and for those yet to be born (not just the majority of the people who voted 3 years ago), and do what is right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, March 25, 2019, 09:40:39
See the Brexit go-slow on the M4 and M5 this evening which was going to "bring the country to it's knees" ... erm, didn't: this is the Bristol Post's summary of what a country on it's knees looks like:

"The protest appears to be over before it began in Bristol, with no disruption hitting the area at all.

Our sister website Cornwall Live has given the following insight into how the demonstration kicked off on the south coast.

About 10 vehicles set off along the A30. The vehicles, three of which were decorated in banners and flags, left the service station at Plusha at about 3.30pm.

No lorries took part.

Organisers initially said 25 people had signed up to take part in the rolling road block after the prime minister asked the European Union to delay the UK’s exit date beyond March 29.

Speaking at the start of the protest, organiser Ian Grindod said: “It was never going to be a massive event anyway.”

Things got worse for the demonstrators further along the A30, when police stopped nine vehicles and reported two motorists for inconsiderate driving."

On a par with Nigel's March #sadface

Up here the police just nicked the vehicles at the front for causing and obstruction and it stopped!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, March 25, 2019, 09:43:53

So you have given example Corbyn walked out of the meeting when realising he''d been stitched up... perhaps a misjudgement, but I'd have probably done the same, and not exactly crime of the century.



That's total bullshit, No.10 had confirmed to the media mid afternoon who was attending the meeting and thus Corbyn would have known at that time that Chucka would be there, however he chose to roll up and then flounce off like Toni leaving the TEF....

He is as ego driven as the rest of them, new politics my arsehole.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, March 25, 2019, 09:44:52
Within broad church parties there will always be sub groups... as I've argued elsewhere, on the continent PR allows these groupings to exist independently and enter coalitions, in our system the coalitions are with in the same tent.

There is little similarity between Momentum and the MT.  Momentum is attempting to create a grassroots party, given that historic ties between Labour and the trade Unions have been weakened.  In return for their efforts, it is expected that MP's as representatives of the party, do at least show some semblance of supporting the aims and are not just naked careerists.

The definition of left wing when seen from the right is very flexible.... I've said it before, but many Tory politicians of the 50's and 60's would be seen as dangerously left wing now, with their commitments to social housing and high spending on education.... once centrist views still holding sway in European social democracy, the sort of place where momentum are.



You are Rachael Swindon and I claim my £10.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, March 25, 2019, 10:13:13
You are Rachael Swindon and I claim my £10.

Is that the bird who's tipped to be your lot's next leader?  

Corbyn is certainly no Messiah, but he was probably down the allotment, before the meeting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, March 25, 2019, 10:50:58
Is that the bird who's tipped to be your lot's next leader? 

Corbyn is certainly no Messiah, but he was probably down the allotment, before the meeting.

My lot?? I don't have a lot, although as a Labour supporter 'your lot'  can mean some rather unpleasant things in the current climate....

So we are to believe that Corbyn went into a meeting with the PM without speaking to any aides or colleagues, that's even more tinpot that I imagined.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, March 25, 2019, 11:11:02
My lot?? I don't have a lot, although as a Labour supporter 'your lot'  can mean some rather unpleasant things in the current climate....

I guess you either never got round to it or the membership of the Lib Dems you mentioned after the 2015 election has lapsed.

March is a busy time down the allotment, got to get your early spuds in and clean up your soil...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, March 25, 2019, 13:53:12
Polls are polls, but its interesting to see the split is somewhat larger when 'leave' is defined rather than just a generic term.....

2nd Referendum Voting Intentions:

Remain Vs Govt. Deal
Remain: 61%
Govt. Deal: 39%

Remain Vs No Deal

Remain: 57%
No Deal: 43%

Via You Gov, 14-15 March. - Yeah I know its You Gov.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, March 25, 2019, 13:58:17
It does support my assumption, that a fair chunk of those who voted out did so without any expectation of being tied in any way shape or form to the EU.  My thought process was that those who wanted some arrangement would probably have voted to Remain anyway.  Certainly the vast majority of people I know who voted out would be more than happy with no deal being in place on exit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, March 25, 2019, 17:18:00
It's so murky, isn't it?  May is telling MPs now that she will disregard any indicative votes that breach her red lines.  In other words...even if you lot vote in favour of a Customs Union, I'm going to ignore that because while a Customs Union would solve the Irish border question and a load of other stuff, it would also entail freedom of movement which I promised to end in my last manifesto.

I think she'd have a stronger argument for taking that approach if that manifesto had actually given her a majority.  No right or wrong here.  It's all down to interpretation.  Does she have a mandate to deliver a No Deal Brexit?  I don't think she does...but I can see how others might argue otherwise.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, March 25, 2019, 17:20:49
Groundhog May again isn't it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, March 25, 2019, 17:34:26
So May says she will ignore any indicative votes she doesn't like.

You have to admire her ability to just bullshit everyone.

Last week May: "MPs are traitors and they only say what they don't want, not what they do want"

MPs: "OK we'll tell you what we want"

This week May: "Unless it's my deal I'll ignore you"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, March 25, 2019, 18:13:07
It's so murky, isn't it? 
  Does she have a mandate to deliver a No Deal Brexit?  I don't think she does...but I can see how others might argue otherwise.

 Tory manifsto 2017 said we'd leave CU and Single Market, but negotiate a deal best for both UK and EU.... I think that has been fulfilled.

 That Parliament can't accept it, and has no mandate for anything else means a default to no deal, which they voted for.

There's nothing there undemocratic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, March 25, 2019, 18:44:11
Yes, to an extent but you have to take into account that, previous default vote or not, Parliament cannot bind itself. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 25, 2019, 19:11:44
Yes, to an extent but you have to take into account that, previous default vote or not, Parliament cannot bind itself. 
Eh? Can you rephrase that, I'm struggling to understand what you mean - Parliament cannot bind itself to what? And why not?

FWIW, I think Reg is right, the choices are fairly clear, albeit all unpalatable. But if MPs now find them unpalatable, maybe they shouldn't have voted to hold an ill-thought out referendum to sort out their own internal squabbles in the first place.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, March 25, 2019, 20:14:16
Reg commented that if Parliament can't accept it, and has no mandate for anything else means a default to no deal, which they voted for.

I accepted that and added, mindful of Reg's statement that Parliament had voted for a default to no deal, that ir could not bind itself.  In other words, the default to no deal was amendable or we can still revoke.

I'm  no expert on parliamentary procedure and I think most of us are in uncharted waters.  Thgeoretically, it seems, the speaker could still attempt to block another "meaningful vote" and, of course, Parliament could vote (majority permitting) to override the speaker's ruling.

What fun, eh?







Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 25, 2019, 22:31:30
I'm not sure that Parliament by itself can amend the default to no deal. As you say, we're in uncharted waters to some extent but as I understand it, there's two things preventing Parliament blocking the default to No Deal:
1) Out by March 29th/April 12th is in legislation, that cannot be overridden by indicative motions. So Parliament can vote for skittle-shitting giraffes all it likes, in order to actually change what's on the table, they need to pass legislation and given the purpose of the government is to set the business of the House, I don't think Parliament (as distinct from the govt) can set out legislation. It can pass or block legislation that the govt puts in front of it, but don't think it can move legislation in the first instance. I may well be wrong
2) Probably more germane - no-one in Parliament or the media seems to be acknowledging that even if Parliament can persuade May to abide by their "indicative votes" (and she's already told them to do one) changing everything now isn't in the govt's gift. In order to change the withdrawal agreement, the clue is in the name, agreement, we need to agree that with the EU. We spent (wasted) two years negotiating May's deal with the EU, the EU aren't going to suddenly just accept whatever skittle-shitting fancy Parliament comes up with at the last minute. So the options are: May's deal, no deal or prolonged delay to renegotiate. All this talk of Norway 2.1, Canada ++ etc making it sound like they are concrete options that Parliament can vote for is a load of bollocks. They're not on the table. Shit or get off the pot


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 09:00:11
I agree with you on both points.

We truly now have "anarchy in the UK" but not in a good way.  It's only a temporary arrangement anyway (imo opinion the backstop trap is rather ramped up).

Brexitist politicians can legitimately go on about Project Fear but they "won" and their unicorn dogma was undeliverable.

I am a dyed in the wool remainer but Brexit could have been deliverable had it been meaningfully obtained or had we had a leader of charisma, integrity and knowledge to put people right as well as, Moses-like, led us away.

That leaving would be technical and gradual so that we could maintain our economic base and a temporary withdrawal agreement would reflect that;  that achieving independence and a more global position could never, under the Conservatives, involve turning our back on key allies such as the USA and the EU.

Only Boris had the charisma, imo, but not the integrity or the knowledge.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 16:32:21
Will we have to?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47704345


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 16:41:51
Will we have to?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47704345

As long as we pick BST I'll be delighted... can't wait for Sunday.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 17:15:47
So now the (chlorinated) chickens are getting close to coming home to roost, we now seem to be seeing a split between the hard right in the Tory Party and the far right outside of the Tory Party - Rees-Mogg now saying that May's deal is better than No Brexit at all,

https://www.conservativehome.com/highlights/2019/03/the-moggcast-deal-or-no-brexit-becomes-the-choice-eventually-mays-deal-is-better-than-not-leaving-at-all.html

....while Arron Banks, founder and funder (or at least intermediary for the Russian money) of Leave.EU, is saying May's deal is so bad, and apparently ties us to the EU in all kinds of nasty ways (he reckons) that he'd rather Remain.

https://twitter.com/Arron_banks/status/1110319352463659008

Interesting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 19:16:21
It's decision time, at last.  Watching the ERG collectively shit its pants and convert to May's deal at the 11th hour is certainly a sight to behold.  I'm glad that the penny has dropped that what they previously considered to be a miserable Pseudo-Brexit really is as good as it gets in the real world.  Someone has finally taken the unicorns round the back to be shot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 19:31:32
no surprise there


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 20:08:46
There is now another new EU law for us to adopt, as the EU Copyright Directive has been passed: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-47708144

I am no expert but it seems to me to be good for musicians trying to make a bit of money at a time when fewer people are actually buying music.

The UK was apparently instrumental (see what I did there?) in getting this one through.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, March 27, 2019, 18:47:27
May says she will resign if people back her deal

MP’s who’ve spent the last year vehemently against her deal now lining up in support

Spineless, arrogant, vapid cunts. How the fuck can anyone vote for them? They don’t give a fuck about the country or it’s people. They don’t even give a fuck about Brexit. They care about themselves and they care about power.

Cunts, the lot of them


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, March 27, 2019, 18:53:18
All of a sudden, Boris now says he will back her deal!

Bellends


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, March 27, 2019, 18:55:08
May says she will resign if people back her deal

MP’s who’ve spent the last year vehemently against her deal now lining up in support

Spineless, arrogant, vapid cunts. How the fuck can anyone vote for them? They don’t give a fuck about the country or it’s people. They don’t even give a fuck about Brexit. They care about themselves and they care about power.

Cunts, the lot of them
Surely this isn't a surprise to anyone? Brexit started as a result of an internal Tory party dispute and Cameron putting party before country, hardly a surprise that it continues in the same vein. If you think you've seen selfish venal hypocrites so far, just wait till Johnson gets his hands on the leadership


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, March 27, 2019, 19:19:54
bunch of cunts though.

terrible deal... oh wait.. leadership contest..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, March 27, 2019, 19:21:38
It's the same deal whether she fucks off or not. Remainers and leavers are united it's a shit deal but suddenly when the nutcase leaves it's now a good deal. Fantastic way to do business and fuck the electorate and country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, March 27, 2019, 19:28:53
100% right Chalkies


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, March 27, 2019, 19:39:00
We're agreeing too often recently.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, March 27, 2019, 21:15:48
And the DUP say no.

It's fucking hilarious, except for it isn't. But it still is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, March 27, 2019, 21:48:22
And now no majority for any proposal in indicitive votes.

2nd ref and  customs Union still trounce May's attempts though!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, March 27, 2019, 22:40:16
It's the same deal whether she fucks off or not. Remainers and leavers are united it's a shit deal but suddenly when the nutcase leaves it's now a good deal. Fantastic way to do business and fuck the electorate and country.
Like I say, party before country. Except for Johnson (and Gove), then it's Boris first, last and everything and fuck the rest of you. How's that principled ERG leadership that you were so keen on a few weeks ago looking about now?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 06:52:18
The erg are now split in 2. Rees might looking to back Mays deal as it is the only brexit deal on the table. Baker however is still anti. They both have their followers.
At least they are trying to represent the leaver majority unlike grieve, gauke etc.
I don't think the erg are any more principled than other MPs. Apart from a handful, every one a deceitful, self interested shitcunt


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 07:48:05
The erg are now split in 2. Rees might looking to back Mays deal as it is the only brexit deal on the table. Baker however is still anti. They both have their followers.
At least they are trying to represent the leaver majority unlike grieve, gauke etc.
No they're not, they're representing themselves and their own interests as always. Self before party before country


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 08:13:47
We're agreeing too often recently.

unlike our MPs
















(except on their pay increases)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 08:14:02
Alright then, lets try this. The erg are leavers and the majority of the country (who could be bothered or eligible to vote and at that point in time). their self interests coincide unlike Grieve, Gauke etc whose self interests coincide with the minority of the country (who could be bothered or eligible to vote and at that point in time)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 08:44:02
I think we come back to the fundamental problem of the sheer variety of leave options.

if the 2016 referendum is the point in time at which you judge it then, as I recall, there was not one advocate of wto/no deal

I don't accept the General Election mandate either (because it is general) but the Con. manifesto was still advocating a deal and strong and stable government  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

The ERG has campaigned (quite succesfully) for the opposite.  But there is no mandate for it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 08:55:59
I think we come back to the fundamental problem of the sheer variety of leave options.

if the 2016 referendum is the point in time at which you judge it then, as I recall, there was not one advocate of wto/no deal

I don't accept the General Election mandate either (because it is general) but the Con. manifesto was still advocating a deal and strong and stable government  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

The ERG has campaigned (quite succesfully) for the opposite.  But there is no mandate for it.


May delivered on her manifesto pledge to negotiate a WA which would be good for UK and EU.... if Parliament can't accept it, can't agree on a way forward and can't take the legal default of leaving with no deal on 12th April, then it has to be a long extension of Art 50, and a GE.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 09:29:23
And now no majority for any proposal in indicitive votes.

2nd ref and  customs Union still trounce May's attempts though!

That was always going to happen though, hence why Monday has also been set aside for a second round of voting, despite the fake horror of the Tory hardliners last night that there would be more votes (despite them voting it through the house earlier in the week)!

As you say though the one shock of last night was how well the 2nd ref and customs union votes went, which I think surprised everyone, as Ian Dunt notes:

'The ideas could be lumped into three broad categories: First, hardline Brexit - represented by a motion on no-deal and another on a standstill trade deal negotiation. Second, soft Brexit - represented by Labour's motion, a customs union proposal, and two single market models.  Third, the Remain options - represented by an amendment on a People's Vote and one on revocation.

The hardline Brexit options fell hard. John Baron's demand for no-deal lost by 160 votes to 400. Marcus Fysh's plan for a standstill negotiation on a trade deal fell by 139-422.

Soft Brexit did surprisingly badly. Labour's alternate plan, which does not specify a model, fell by 237-307. Nick Boles' much-publicised idea of Common Market 2.0 was defeated by 188 to 283. Another soft Brexit plan to stay in the EEA went even worse, with just 65 votes to 377.

On the Remain wing, the revocation plan was also badly defeated, by 184 to 293.

Two propositions stood out, prompting gasps as their numbers were read out in the Commons. Ken Clarke's proposal for the UK to stay in the customs union fell by just 264 votes to 272 - a majority of just eight. And Margaret Beckett's motion calling for a confirmatory public vote on whatever deal was passed fell by 268 votes to 295 - a majority of 27. It was a far tighter margin than expected and also the single largest positive vote for any Brexit option so far.

For comparison, Theresa May's deal was defeated by 432 votes to 202 the first time - a majority of 230. And then it was defeated by 391 votes to 242 the second - a majority of 149.

In the moments after the result, Tory MPs lashed out bitterly, shouting that it was absurd that more votes should take place on Monday. But it was all theatrics. They knew what the business motion said. They knew MPs had already voted to support it. They knew what the multi-stage plan involved. The truth was they'd been startled by how close the second referendum option was. Their only option was to try to undermine the process.

The question now becomes which options are brought back to be decided on on Monday. Logically, it should be customs union membership and a second referendum, but Letwin may want to include one or two more. There is also a question about the voting system. The introduction of a Single Transferable Vote or Alternative Vote system could help bring out the majorities, by taking account of MPs' least-bad outcomes, rather than the ones they actively support. And then there are the bigger questions: Do parliamentarians have the courage and tenacity to force the winning proposition on the government, if they can find it? None of this is clear.

But that's for a later day. The question for tonight was whether this process could throw up a few credible ways forward. It has done. Despite all the hysteria and theatrical condemnations after the vote, that was precisely what it did. The answers it provided were not quite what we expected. They suggest a customs union bolt-on to May's deal, subject to a public vote, would be likely to get through the Commons.

It's only been 48 hours since the Letwin amendment was passed. And already the Brexit debate is changing beyond all recognition.'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 09:39:30
So I think what you're saying is that once May's deal is properly off the table this weekend - either because it's been defeated a 3rd time or because her authority has now evaporated to the point that there is no longer a prospect of it being resurrected - that there would then be a reasonable prospect of one or more of the defeated indicative vote options actually passing when put to the vote again on Monday?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 09:47:25
So I think what you're saying is that once May's deal is properly off the table this weekend - either because it's been defeated a 3rd time or because her authority has now evaporated to the point that there is no longer a prospect of it being resurrected - that there would then be a reasonable prospect of one or more of the defeated indicative vote options actually passing when put to the vote again on Monday?

I think so, I read somewhere yesterday that if you do the arithmetic even if the softer ERG fold, the hardline headbangers and DUP are so ideologically driven they are unlikely to (which puts JRM in a pickle as he said he would only support if the DUP do) then its not clear if May have enough to get her deal over the line as it stands!

I think parliament is sitting on Friday this week so not sure at what stage she has to confirm she is bringing MV3 to the house, I believe more indicative votes are scheduled for Monday so assume will have to be before then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 09:55:19
May delivered on her manifesto pledge to negotiate a WA which would be good for UK and EU.... if Parliament can't accept it, can't agree on a way forward and can't take the legal default of leaving with no deal on 12th April, then it has to be a long extension of Art 50, and a GE.
That's a good distillation of where we are now.

We just have to sit back and wait to see if we will be consulted in any way.

I think many of us, with our own different views, are feeling very sidelined.  We cannot all prevail.  There have to be winners and losers.  I am as uncompromising as the next man in my views.

However, I do wonder whether we might be more widely and cohesively represented by coalitions and PR/STV systems?  It might just be a case of the grass appearing greener......







Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 09:59:27
May delivered on her manifesto pledge to negotiate a WA which would be good for UK and EU....

Has she, you struggle to find a majority in parliament or the country as a whole who think her deal would be good for the UK?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 10:12:56
Has she, you struggle to find a majority in parliament or the country as a whole who think her deal would be good for the UK?

Only because of cake and eat it syndrome... Brexiteers assume the EU will do as it's told, in the same way they assume, Johnny Foreigner will do as he's told when it comes to replacing the trade deals lost by leaving the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 10:29:13
Perhaps "good for the UK and EU" might be overegging it - "as best as you can expect given the circumstances for the UK and EU" might put it better?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 10:55:41
I see our very own Robert Buckland decided to vote against all of the amendments last night. Presumably he is still backing Theresa's deal.

Tomlinson voted for no deal and the 2 year extension, so basically "do nothing."

Pair of shyters.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47726787


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 11:22:11
I see our very own Robert Buckland decided to vote against all of the amendments last night. Presumably he is still backing Theresa's deal.

Tomlinson voted for no deal and the 2 year extension, so basically "do nothing."

Pair of shyters.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47726787

Re Buckland that's the assimption... you can't vote for options when May's deal is still theoretically on the table.  Tomlinson, probably hopes that voting for no deal, will find favour with a new Brexit leader, and assume that his constituents won't notice or care, given the perilous situation around the automotive industry likely to happen with no deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 11:53:27
Tomlinson voted for no deal and the 2 year extension, so basically "do nothing."
Aren't they mutually contradictory?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 11:56:59
The holw point of this was to return control to the UK Parliament, not to make it somehow a bastion of democracies worldwide.  You get what you vote for - we voted to tell them to leave, we voted for our MP''s to represent us.  If they can't decide what to vote FOR then the default is a hard Brexit, just let it happen.  They can then get on with making new laws as they see fit and the electorate can vote for replacements at the next GE if they think they've made a mess of it.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 12:05:06
The holw point of this was to return control to the UK Parliament, not to make it somehow a bastion of democracies worldwide.  You get what you vote for - we voted to tell them to leave, we voted for our MP''s to represent us.  If they can't decide what to vote FOR then the default is a hard Brexit, just let it happen.  They can then get on with making new laws as they see fit and the electorate can vote for replacements at the next GE if they think they've made a mess of it.
Yup.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 12:20:38
Nope.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 12:35:35
It's what we as a nation voted for, even if it is a fucking mess created by liars and self-regarding cretins, it's what we voted for. Caveat emptor.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 12:46:00
How the fuck is Chris Grayling still in a job? Not just a cabinet job, but any kind of job. You wouldn't trust him as a junior intern, he'd be the one who accidentally stapled his cock to the desk while doing some filing

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47728948


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 12:50:52
The holw point of this was to return control to the UK Parliament, not to make it somehow a bastion of democracies worldwide.  You get what you vote for - we voted to tell them to leave, we voted for our MP''s to represent us.  If they can't decide what to vote FOR then the default is a hard Brexit, just let it happen.  They can then get on with making new laws as they see fit and the electorate can vote for replacements at the next GE if they think they've made a mess of it.

It may be heretical to suggest this, but if the result of our democracy is an extended period during which our elected representatives focus on little else other than how best to make ourselves poorer and to weaken our partnerships - then maybe our democracy isn't as great as we thought it was.  I'm not saying do away with it all together - but radical reform is a must.  The 'unwritten constitution' bollocks has to go, for a start.  Our friends over the water have their heads in their hands at the moment, not quite able to understand how we got ourselves in to this mess.  Because in their countries, they have properly written constitutions that set out how these things work - and, as a result, would never have found themselves in this position.  We need to learn from this, and them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 12:59:14
...and (returning to an old chestnut, sorry), FPTP has to go as well.  It's precisely because of this archaic and deeply unfair voting system that we end up with an adversarial parliament with no experience or incentive to find consensus.  In countries that use PR or a variant of it (which is, more or less, every other country) May would not have drawn her ridiculous red lines in 2016/17 and would not have had to pander to the absurd and frankly delusional leanings of the hard right ERG faction in her party.  She would have started to seek consensus across parliament nearly 3 years ago.  UK democracy is a miserable shadow of what it could & should be.  We only have ourselves to blame as a country for this mess when we persist with an outdated voting system that just about every other modern democracy has rejected.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 13:05:06
Aren't they mutually contradictory?

I never said it made sense!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 13:20:50
Our friends over the water have their heads in their hands at the moment, not quite able to understand how we got ourselves in to this mess. 
I share an office with a French guy in a workplace that is roughly 50-50 Brits and Europeans (it's an international science centre, funded by 30+ European govts but outside the EU, before any of the knuckledraggers kick in about "taking our jobs"). Every morning I get in and just say to him "No, don't ask me, I have no idea what they're doing either". He, and the other Europeans on site, look at us with a mixture of horror, bemusement and pity. We are an international laughing stock. #takingbackcontrol


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 13:31:05
The holw point of this was to return control to the UK Parliament, not to make it somehow a bastion of democracies worldwide.  You get what you vote for - we voted to tell them to leave, we voted for our MP''s to represent us.  If they can't decide what to vote FOR then the default is a hard Brexit, just let it happen.  They can then get on with making new laws as they see fit and the electorate can vote for replacements at the next GE if they think they've made a mess of it.


Exactly,  100% correct.  This whole affair is fucking doing my head in.  
Fuck the million+ people that have signed a petition to stop Brexit.   17.4 MILLION people voted to get out, don't they have any rights ?.
How many people vote for a certain government in the general elections,  then find they are not the party they thought they were. Don't ever recall such backlash when the voters decide they didn't know what they were voting for.
I voted to get out,   I don't give a fuck how we get out,  let's just do it.    And before anyone starts on about the economics,  how much money has been wasted in the last three years ?.   Ok, so life maybe harder initially,  and it may take a few years but I'm sure as a country we would bounce back.   In the meantime we would be able to make our own laws and fuck of all non-british murderers/rapists/ muggers/multi offenders who shelter under the big soft Britain umbrella.  Sorry, but IMO the time has come to do what the majority voted for,  stop bowing down to Brussels, Bercow and the rest of the whinging remainers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 13:34:03
It's what we as a nation voted for, even if it is a fucking mess created by liars and self-regarding cretins, it's what we voted for. Caveat emptor.
Couldn't agree more !.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 13:48:40
In the meantime we would be able to make our own laws and fuck of all non-british murderers/rapists/ muggers/multi offenders who shelter under the big soft Britain umbrella. 
You are going to be so bitterly disappointed by how little difference leaving the EU makes to our compliance to international human rights legislation


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 13:50:31
You are going to be so bitterly disappointed by how little difference leaving the EU makes to our compliance to international human rights legislation
Probably true,  but how can things get worse ?, We're currently the laughing stock of Europe.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 13:53:48
We are an international laughing stock. #takingbackcontrol

In case there was any doubt in this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWWWxWMqfyk


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 13:59:13
In case there was any doubt in this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWWWxWMqfyk
;D  :D    must admit I like the boobs on the bit of stuff in white in the last clip.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 14:00:47
Exactly,  100% correct.  This whole affair is fucking doing my head in.   
Fuck the million+ people that have signed a petition to stop Brexit.   17.4 MILLION people voted to get out, don't they have any rights ?.
How many people vote for a certain government in the general elections,  then find they are not the party they thought they were. Don't ever recall such backlash when the voters decide they didn't know what they were voting for.
I voted to get out,   I don't give a fuck how we get out,  let's just do it.    And before anyone starts on about the economics,  how much money has been wasted in the last three years ?.   Ok, so life maybe harder initially,  and it may take a few years but I'm sure as a country we would bounce back.   In the meantime we would be able to make our own laws and fuck of all non-british murderers/rapists/ muggers/multi offenders who shelter under the big soft Britain umbrella.  Sorry, but IMO the time has come to do what the majority voted for,  stop bowing down to Brussels, Bercow and the rest of the whinging remainers.

This is the problem.  Politicians have not yet worked out how to take the UK out of the EU without putting jobs and businesses at risk.  And neither, by your own admission above, have you.  Throwing your hands up in the air and saying 'Fuck it, I haven't got a clue how to do this in a sensible way, but let's just do it anyway' might work for you.  But there is nothing to suggest that this is a majority view.

Add in to the mix the polling evidence that suggests that the slender Leave majority in 2016 has now evaporated and that Brexit in any form is now supported by approx 46% of the voting population, the argument for jumping off the cliff with your eyes shut and your fingers crossed behind your back isn't very strong at all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 14:06:34
Add in to the mix the polling evidence that suggests that the slender Leave majority in 2016 has now evaporated and that Brexit in any form is now supported by approx 46% of the voting population, the argument for jumping off the cliff with your eyes shut and your fingers crossed behind your back isn't very strong at all.

John Curtice (who a lot of Brexiteers were putting great weight to when his results suited them) is now suggesting that things have drifted to remain rather more than previously thought, so frankly who knows (or indeed really cares) anymore.

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1110443949775298562


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 14:09:57
This is the problem.  Politicians have not yet worked out how to take the UK out of the EU without putting jobs and businesses at risk.  And neither, by your own admission above, have you.  Throwing your hands up in the air and saying 'Fuck it, I haven't got a clue how to do this in a sensible way, but let's just do it anyway' might work for you.  But there is nothing to suggest that this is a majority view.

Add in to the mix the polling evidence that suggests that the slender Leave majority in 2016 has now evaporated and that Brexit in any form is now supported by approx 46% of the voting population, the argument for jumping off the cliff with your eyes shut and your fingers crossed behind your back isn't very strong at all.
Understand what you are saying,  but we did not vote to which way we would leave,  we voted to leave.
As per my second paragraph,   why should the minofity be able to stall  the majorities decision, surely this is unheard of in politics.
If this all goes tits up, as it seems it may do,  I will never vote again,  democracy no longer seems to work in this country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 14:18:50
I take your point, and get the frustration.  But I don't have any answers.  (And I sincerely believe that jumping off the proverbial cliff isn't an answer.)

Ideally, I guess we'd have had the consensus-building approach I mentioned a few posts back.  Then, we might have arrived quickly (or more quickly) at a Brexit plan that could get passed.  But it didn't happen that way.  The Tories have, instead, attempted to push through a Brexit plan that very few others outside their party could get behind...with neither a decisive voting margin in the 2016 vote or a majority government.  Given that, there was bound to be resistance all along the way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 14:23:50
I take your point, and get the frustration.  But I don't have any answers.  (And I sincerely believe that jumping off the proverbial cliff isn't an answer.)

Ideally, I guess we'd have had the consensus-building approach I mentioned a few posts back.  Then, we might have arrived quickly (or more quickly) at a Brexit plan that could get passed.  But it didn't happen that way.  The Tories have, instead, attempted to push through a Brexit plan that very few others outside their party could get behind...with neither a decisive voting margin in the 2016 vote or a majority government.  Given that, there was bound to be resistance all along the way.
Fair points,  like yourself I have no idea what the answer is but I said before,  l just want it done with,  probably like millions of others !.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 14:38:53
Probably true,  but how can things get worse ?, We're currently the laughing stock of Europe.
We are indeed, but not because of our human rights policy (which is, apparently, why you voted Brexit even though most of this legislation is in UK law because we signed up to the International Convention on Human Rights, not because of our membership of the EU), but because of the solution that you propose for it - Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 15:12:57
Add in to the mix the polling evidence that suggests that the slender Leave majority in 2016 has now evaporated and that Brexit in any form is now supported by approx 46% of the voting population, the argument for jumping off the cliff with your eyes shut and your fingers crossed behind your back isn't very strong at all.
tbf, the polls in 2016 didn't predict a Leave victory so don't know that relying on the evidence of the polls really tells you how people would actually vote if given the chance again


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 15:16:49
Last night's results:

No Deal - Con in favour, Lab not
Common Market 2.0 - Lab in favour, Con not
EEA/EFTA - Both not in favour
Customs Union - Lab in favour, Con not
Labour's Plan - Lab in favour, Con not
Revoke A50 - Lab in favour, Con not
Public Vote - Lab in favour, Con not
Contingent Pref Arrangement - Con in favour, Lab not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 15:21:47
tbf, the polls in 2016 didn't predict a Leave victory so don't know that relying on the evidence of the polls really tells you how people would actually vote if given the chance again

I get that.  And opinion polls are obviously different in status to the 2016 referendum.  Just trying to make the point that either side is on shaky ground when trying to argue that they represent the ‘will of the people’.  The truth is that, as a country, we’re hopelessly divided on this.  You’ll never get this over the line by trying to impose a hardline solution that favours one extreme or the other, because it will be far to far from the centre of gravity of public opinion and there will be too much opposition to that.

Instead, try to find a balanced approach that a majority can coalesce around.  Theresa May was always a Tory 1st and a national leader 2nd.  (One columnist described her as 'Tory to her fingertips', which I thought was a good way of putting it.)  She has put her own party first and the country 2nd every step of the way, so that kind of approach was always going to be beyond her instincts & abilities.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 15:23:56
We are indeed, but not because of our human rights policy (which is, apparently, why you voted Brexit even though most of this legislation is in UK law because we signed up to the International Convention on Human Rights, not because of our membership of the EU), but because of the solution that you propose for it - Brexit.

Many Brexiteers conflate ECHR with ECJ.

 Maniac, as a point of informatioin, the ECJ is in place to settle matters of EU legislation, between EU countries.  ECHR, we essentially were responsible for forming  at the end of WW11, in order to try and prevent future genocides and fascist regimes getting free reign.

Logically if we're out of the EU then you'd think ECJ rulings would lapse..... however if we want to do deals with other EU countries those deals will still be susceptible to ECJ rulings.... in other words we can't enter into illegal dealings with other EU countries just because we want to...



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 15:26:42
The holw point of this was to return control to the UK Parliament, not to make it somehow a bastion of democracies worldwide.  You get what you vote for - we voted to tell them to leave, we voted for our MP''s to represent us.  If they can't decide what to vote FOR then the default is a hard Brexit, just let it happen.  They can then get on with making new laws as they see fit and the electorate can vote for replacements at the next GE if they think they've made a mess of it.



As much as I hate to say it, being a remainer, but I have to agree.  To stay in now in any other form would be a bigger cluster than no deal.  We are so far beyond the point of return now we are closer being USA 2 than being taken seriously as part of the EU IMO.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 15:33:38
In case there was any doubt in this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWWWxWMqfyk

How they see us:

European press and commentators switched on the TV, pulled out the popcorn and sat back to watch the latest preposterous episode in Britain’s Brexit psychodrama with a mixture of disbelief and resignation.

“Most series start getting dull after a second or third season, but Brexit’s different,” said Germany’s Die Zeit. “The longer it lasts, the better the plot gets. Yesterday’s twist was the best yet: first the unloved PM offers to go, then MPs seize the initiative and it seems the tide may be turning.

“But wait … In the end, it turns out they can agree on – absolutely nothing. So, cue uproar in the house, and the credits start running. ‘Order,’ roars John Bercow. Please do not adjust your set: we’ll be back right after the break.”


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 16:39:50
To Ardiles, it's not a complete cliff.  At worst, the default Hard Brexit is half a cliff, and not really even that.

The EU has already had countries working on how to deal with us in the event of a Hard Brexit.  Therefore, things like travel, financial dealings etc. are already being cared for for US.  The other way around, we don't have to change any laws on day 1.  We could still continue pretending for a bit, giving the Eastern Europeans a wink as they come through customs to take all our benefits off us, while simultaneously taking our jobs as well.  Saying, we could stop you, but we haven't figured out how to yet, so on you go old boy.

For everyone who voted Out, the paperwork is done.  For everyone who voted Remain, it won't be worth the paper it is written on until Parliament figures out how to pass laws and negotiate deals again.

In fact, that might work better especially as the EU has shown zero interest in just punishing us.  Gradual introduction of laws that begin to chart our own path.

The biggest impact is likely on the costs of trade, business will soon suck it up and pass it on and figure out the new rules.

I'm not saying it will be amazing (I am pro EU, not just Remain), just that we hold 50% of the cards on how bad we want it to be, and the EU has already played most of their cards for this eventuality - apart from Spain I think, who said they;ll get around to it later.  As is their will in life I guess.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 17:12:46
To Ardiles, it's not a complete cliff.  At worst, the default Hard Brexit is half a cliff, and not really even that.

The EU has already had countries working on how to deal with us in the event of a Hard Brexit.  Therefore, things like travel, financial dealings etc. are already being cared for for US.  The other way around, we don't have to change any laws on day 1.  We could still continue pretending for a bit, giving the Eastern Europeans a wink as they come through customs to take all our benefits off us, while simultaneously taking our jobs as well.  Saying, we could stop you, but we haven't figured out how to yet, so on you go old boy.

For everyone who voted Out, the paperwork is done.  For everyone who voted Remain, it won't be worth the paper it is written on until Parliament figures out how to pass laws and negotiate deals again.

In fact, that might work better especially as the EU has shown zero interest in just punishing us.  Gradual introduction of laws that begin to chart our own path.

The biggest impact is likely on the costs of trade, business will soon suck it up and pass it on and figure out the new rules.

I'm not saying it will be amazing (I am pro EU, not just Remain), just that we hold 50% of the cards on how bad we want it to be, and the EU has already played most of their cards for this eventuality - apart from Spain I think, who said they;ll get around to it later.  As is their will in life I guess.

All sounds very nice if I had one iota of confidence in our politicians to act in the best interests of the population post departure.

The blue side will continue to bicker and bitch doing nothing to solve the real problems that affect the people (and which actually led to much of the vote to leave in the first place) whilst the red side will just continue to play student politics from the 1940's again barely giving a toss beyond scoring points against one another.

I am evermore veering to the opinion that I hope there is an absolute civil shitstorm if it goes belly up, its all very well fearing the yellow vests if they don't get the utopia they have been promised, however there are millions of leave voters who are going to be very unhappy and whilst they possibly won't be punching people in the street there are plenty of other means to cause chaos and civil unrest.

Add to the fun the Scots possibly buggering off (good luck to them) and the re ignition of the troubles in NI, bumpy times ahead.

The one positive outcome is hopefully that neither red nor blue side are let anywhere near running this god forsaken shit hole of a country again in my lifetime.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, March 28, 2019, 18:26:26
Then people vote for new people.  Time to grow-up as a country after running to the EU to bail us out 40 +years ago without ever really buying into the membership of the club we'd joined.

It's interesting looking at who voted to leave when you consider that the EU is behind things like the minimum wage, maximum working hours etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, March 29, 2019, 10:08:13
(https://i.imgur.com/eby0Ska.jpg?1)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Friday, March 29, 2019, 10:39:30
THANK YOU FOR RUINING OUR INDEPENDENCE DAY :(


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 29, 2019, 10:53:21
THANK YOU FOR RUINING OUR INDEPENDENCE DAY :(

Independence from what just out of interest?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 29, 2019, 11:08:51
Independence from what just out of interest?

The Faragist Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy Group in the European Parliament.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, March 29, 2019, 11:33:49
(https://i.ibb.co/3SP3Fhz/kkiop.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 29, 2019, 11:43:26
We now have the spectacle of a series of Tory MPs who previously rallied against May's deal performing a 180o U-turn and grudgingly supporting it.  This tells you everything you need to know about the reality of Brexit.  By their own admission, it's rubbish.  And not what anyone voted for.  Still, if they manage to taint the Tory brand for the next few decades (because this is very much now a Tory Brexit), there could at least be one silver lining to this unfolding disaster.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 29, 2019, 12:06:39
THANK YOU FOR RUINING OUR INDEPENDENCE DAY :(
We did that did we? Wow. TEF Pressure Group is more powerful than I thought.  :football:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, March 29, 2019, 12:13:19
The EU can sort this out for us, you know, like Mum would.  Just tell us no extensions, time to decide what we want to do when we grow up and live by our own decisions and mistakes.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, March 29, 2019, 13:01:40
Quote
We did that did we? Wow. TEF Pressure Group is more powerful than I thought.  :football:
I  don't think your humour is softening the blow of all the commemorative March 29th T-Shirts that will be wasted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 29, 2019, 13:20:24
I think don't think your humour is softening the blow of all the commemorative March 29th T-Shirts that will be wasted.

Think yourself lucky I've got three cases of Champagne I have got to drink now!  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 29, 2019, 13:21:00
10 am: Raab tells journos he's standing firm against May's deal
12.55: Raab tells parliament he'll be voting for May's deal.
Still, it's hours until the vote so he'll have plenty of time to flipflop a few more times back and forth before then

Principled, consistent and with a backbone of finest British jelly - surely we are looking at our next PM?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 29, 2019, 13:28:17
10 am: Raab tells journos he's standing firm against May's deal
12.55: Raab tells parliament he'll be voting for May's deal.
Still, it's hours until the vote so he'll have plenty of time to flipflop a few more times back and forth before then

Principled, consistent and with a backbone of finest British jelly - surely we are looking at our next PM?

Anne-Maire Morris noted on the radio the other night that he was the only choice due to his intelligence.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, March 29, 2019, 13:29:22
Think yourself lucky I've got three cases of Champagne I have got to drink now!  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Wouldn't a six pack of special brew be more in keeping with the whole Brexit thinking?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 29, 2019, 13:33:00
I think the addition of a unicorn broach is rather fitting for today....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-...9e199485e90c0667537e0a&pinned_post_type=share



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 29, 2019, 13:41:55
I think the addition of a unicorn broach is rather fitting for today....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-...9e199485e90c0667537e0a&pinned_post_type=share


Even more fitting is that I get a 404 when I try to follow that link!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 29, 2019, 13:42:50
Anne-Maire Morris noted on the radio the other night that he was the only choice due to his intelligence.....
tbf "most intelligent of the likely contenders for the Tory leadership" isn't exactly Mastermind level is it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 29, 2019, 14:37:34
Rumours from the voting lobbies that the government is going to lose again, this time by around 40 votes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 29, 2019, 14:42:53
Loses by 58.  That's the end of the PM's deal, finally.  She'll never be able to bring it back again after that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 29, 2019, 14:43:46
Loses by 58.  That's the end of the PM's deal, finally.  She'll never be able to bring it back again after that.
You taking bets on that? Nice to see the oh so principled Rees-Mogg stabbing the DUP in the back. Spineless hypocrite


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 29, 2019, 14:48:23
I tend not to bet.  But I think this has to be the end of the road now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, March 29, 2019, 15:16:03
What happens next....

No deal Brexit.
Parliamentary agreement on a customs union
MV4
Something else.

14 days....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 29, 2019, 15:22:13
What happens next....

No deal Brexit.
Parliamentary agreement on a customs union
MV4
Something else.

14 days....

I'm still going for a long extension of Art 50 and a GE.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 29, 2019, 15:30:36
I'm still going for a long extension of Art 50 and a GE.

Probably the most likely next step.  It will be interesting to see whether the rejection of the May deal will strengthen support for the alternatives being voted on again on Monday.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, March 29, 2019, 16:36:04
Remarkably she seems to be continuing to try and bribe talk the DUP into taking the deal.

FFS.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, March 29, 2019, 16:50:47
Remarkably she seems to be continuing to try and bribe talk the DUP into taking the deal.

FFS.

Which would STILL leave her 48 short.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 29, 2019, 16:52:51
Reading the reports of the pro-brexit demonstration, some of them are upset the deal hasn’t passed so we can leave and others are upset we’re not leaving with no deal. Even now, they don’t seem to have an agreed view of what they voted for.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, March 29, 2019, 17:12:57
Quote
Which would STILL leave her 48 short.
I guess the thought is that more will switch over as well given the vote would be 'the last. Absolutely the last. Final. Full stop. Never again. Cross my heart and hope to be spanked until my bottom goes purple'.

i.e. of the DUP accept the backstop, surely the rest of you can


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 29, 2019, 17:15:15
He really is a piece of work...

https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2019/03/29/emily-maitlis-just-killed-jacob-rees-mogg-words-glorious/

You don't argue with the Maitlis do you.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, March 29, 2019, 17:28:12
owned


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, March 29, 2019, 18:47:42
Remarkably she seems to be continuing to try and bribe talk the DUP into taking the deal.

FFS.
EU Regional Aid - applied where most needed


May's regional aid - applied to the likes of the DUP (who offer contracts to their friends under the scurillous "cash for ash" scheme) and also to those labour MPs in poorer leave constiruencies who will defy their own party whip and support May's shithouse deal.  Cash for ash.  Cash for Votes.


We must remain.   These Tory shysters would allocate our taxes for party political gain.  They already have more control than they can be trusted with.  And I don't trust Corbyn either.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, March 29, 2019, 18:58:00
Time for the EU to just close the door on us.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Friday, March 29, 2019, 19:16:17
Interesting that Farage is up for fighting a second referendum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, March 29, 2019, 19:17:47
Time for the EU to just close the door on us.
Yep the ultimate irony of the EU giving a lot of leavers the brexit they want.
Alternatively, they could extend article 50 subject to either s second referendum or general election.
I'm glad I voted to take back control.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 29, 2019, 19:21:46
Interesting that Farage is up for fighting a second referendum.
He wants to get his hands on more of that Russian black cash


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, March 29, 2019, 19:37:16
I would rather see an attitude of us with the 27 rather than us against the 27.

I think the latter attitude has been cynically cultivated by a relatively small and unattractive elite.  Who honestly believes they or their children will personally share in those promised sunlit uplands?  Serious question.

However divided we may be (whether the UK or the EU), i would tend to believe we are stronger together, even if we must always assert our own personal or local or regional or national points of view.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, March 29, 2019, 21:11:48
And quietly today on a good day to bury news vote leave have dropped their appeal against the fines for cheating in the referendum.  So they cheated.  The referendum was bought.  But still it was apparently the will of the people.

The will of some people. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Friday, March 29, 2019, 21:48:56
And quietly today on a good day to bury news vote leave have dropped their appeal against the fines for cheating in the referendum.  So they cheated.  The referendum was bought.  But still it was apparently the will of the people.

The will of some people. 

And how is spending £9.3m of taxpayers money on a remain leaflet playing fair then? People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, March 29, 2019, 23:21:41
well for a fucking start you know where that money has come from


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, March 29, 2019, 23:24:51
well for a fucking start you know where that money has come from
Yep proportionately more people who voted leave


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 07:29:11
well for a fucking start you know where that money has come from

Doesn’t make it fair. Remain spent way more than leave and no more transparency where that come from either


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 15:36:17
Doesn’t make it fair. Remain spent way more than leave and no more transparency where that come from either
Another myth - there's a detailed breakdown of what each side spent and where it came from here:

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/political-parties-campaigning-and-donations/campaign-spending-and-donations-at-referendums/campaign-spending-at-the-eu-referendum

Where there wasn't transparency was Leave.EU (Farage/Banks) getting 6m quid of Russian money laundered through Banks' businesses and Vote Leave channelling additional funds through shell campaigns (which is what they were prosecuted for). You're right that Remain spent more, but wrong about the transparency.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 16:03:32
Another myth - there's a detailed breakdown of what each side spent and where it came from here:

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/political-parties-campaigning-and-donations/campaign-spending-and-donations-at-referendums/campaign-spending-at-the-eu-referendum

Where there wasn't transparency was Leave.EU (Farage/Banks) getting 6m quid of Russian money laundered through Banks' businesses and Vote Leave channelling additional funds through shell campaigns (which is what they were prosecuted for). You're right that Remain spent more, but wrong about the transparency.

Oh Russia again- do grow up. Absolutely nothing has been proven that’s Russia had anything to do with it.

My original point stands. Taxpayers money should not have been spent supporting either remain or leave  side it’s just wrong


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 17:22:44
Why shouldn’t the government spend its own money promoting its own stated position?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 17:28:42
My original point stands. Taxpayers money should not have been spent supporting either remain or leave  side it’s just wrong

It's an interesting point which at the time I felt shouldn't have happened, but on reflection a government has a duty to govern and so as a Government generally commited to membership of the EU, did have a responsibilty to explain to people that voting out would make them poorer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 18:16:16
It's an interesting point which at the time I felt shouldn't have happened, but on reflection a government has a duty to govern and so as a Government generally commited to membership of the EU, did have a responsibilty to explain to people that voting out would make them poorer.

It probably won’t though- most of the scare stories have all been proven wrong- we had the same when we didn’t join the euro- everyone predicted Armageddon then.

Try selling the EU institution to the 40% unemployed youth in Spain, Italy, Greece.

I don’t have a problem with European people or the countries, it’s the EU institution I hate- it’s undemocratic and doesn’t represent the people- it’s just a gravy train for Individuals. Why do you think they’ve made it so hard for us? They aren’t interested in a mutually good deal only about keeping their club together


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 18:24:09
And you clearly think that those trying to get us out of the EU are doing it for benign, pure motives.  For the record Im not totally convinced of the European project. 

But I will say it again and again.  17m voted to get out - there were illegalities in that.  16m voted to stay in.

14m didnt know.  I do not consider that a mandate to spend 3 years shouting about the will of the people as if the only people who matter are those 17m.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 18:24:50
It probably won’t though- most of the scare stories have all been proven wrong- we had the same when we didn’t join the euro- everyone predicted Armageddon then.

We haven't left yet....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 19:07:19
17m voted to get out - there were illegalities in that.  16m voted to stay in.

14m didnt know.  I do not consider that a mandate to spend 3 years shouting about the will of the people as if the only people who matter are those 17m.

Well put.  The 'will of the people' line is designed to create the impression that there is a clear and unambiguous bias across the adult population for leaving the EU, and there is nothing of the sort.  Replace 'will of the people' with 'will of 52% of the people 3 years ago' and you'd be closer to the mark.

The country has been horribly split on this since day one.  Neither side has a clear margin, which is why reaching a leave solution involving some form of consensus has to be the way forward.  In any other European country, rival political parties are used to doing this...and they would have started this in 2016.  Our FPTP, adversarial, tribal system is very much to blame for the mess.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 19:14:24
Our FPTP, adversarial, tribal system is very much to blame for the mess.

 It isn't... the reason for the mess is unequivocally at the door of the Tory party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 19:16:31
Well put.  The 'will of the people' line is designed to create the impression that there is a clear and unambiguous bias across the adult population for leaving the EU, and there is nothing of the sort.  Replace 'will of the people' with 'will of 52% of the people 3 years ago' and you'd be closer to the mark.

The country has been horribly split on this since day one.  Neither side has a clear margin, which is why reaching a leave solution involving some form of consensus has to be the way forward.  In any other European country, rival political parties are used to doing this...and they would have started this in 2016.  Our FPTP, adversarial, tribal system is very much to blame for the mess.

You can blame the remianers for the mess, they refuse to go along with the democratic decision.
If they'd won that result would have been final for ever. Typical socialists hypocrities, who bang on about democracy so long as its the result they want. Instead we are now heading into dangerious waters as shown by the 2 million protesters yesterday.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 19:26:10
My original point stands. Taxpayers money should not have been spent supporting either remain or leave  side it’s just wrong
Agree with you there, my point was in response to your claim about the equal lack of transparency for both sides, which was untrue


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 19:28:08
You can blame the remianers for the mess, they refuse to go along with the democratic decision.
If they'd won that result would have been final for ever. Typical socialists hypocrities, who bang on about democracy so long as its the result they want. Instead we are now heading into dangerious waters as shown by the 2 million protesters yesterday. 

Ken, you voted for this nonsense.  I wanted nothing to do with it, and voted against.

This is your Brexit, not mine.  Time you started to own the mess that you caused.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 19:30:02
You can blame the remianers for the mess, they refuse to go along with the democratic decision.
If they'd won that result would have been final for ever. Typical socialists hypocrities, who bang on about democracy so long as its the result they want. Instead we are now heading into dangerious waters as shown by the 2 million protesters yesterday.  
didn't know there were that many white men still left in the UK, SRK.  Mustn't grumble, eh?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 19:35:52
Instead we are now heading into dangerious waters as shown by the 2 million protesters yesterday.  
Erm, if you mean the Brexit demos fronted by Farage and Tommy the Nazi, there was about 3-4,000 according to the Standard:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/police-braced-for-numerous-probrexit-protests-in-london-including-ukip-and-tommy-robinson-protest-in-a4104116.html
The Mail and BBC don't give figures but talk about "thousands" (i.e. less than 20,000 or the Mail would have said tens of thousands):
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6863863/Dozens-Brexit-voters-celebrate-tonight-UK-not-quitting-EU.html

I know facts and numbers and stuff aren't your strong point, but this is ludicrous even for you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 19:39:32
It probably won’t though- most of the scare stories have all been proven wrong- we had the same when we didn’t join the euro- everyone predicted Armageddon then.
Euro scare stories?  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

The odious, smirking MEP pension scrounger from Sevenoaks Public School (with an attendance record worse than some of our worst democratically ennobled Lords) insulted the Euro Parliament on the marking of the 10th anniversary of the Euro.   Classlessly laughing that the currency would be dead before another 10 years was out.  

More Brexitist Project Fear.

Even Diane Abbott could  count the 11 years that followed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 20:57:46
Erm, if you mean the Brexit demos fronted by Farage and Tommy the Nazi, there was about 3-4,000 according to the Standard:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/police-braced-for-numerous-probrexit-protests-in-london-including-ukip-and-tommy-robinson-protest-in-a4104116.html
The Mail and BBC don't give figures but talk about "thousands" (i.e. less than 20,000 or the Mail would have said tens of thousands):
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6863863/Dozens-Brexit-voters-celebrate-tonight-UK-not-quitting-EU.html

I know facts and numbers and stuff aren't your strong point, but this is ludicrous even for you?

Yeah but the week before there were only a few thousand commie eu lovers but that added up to a million.
Good for the goose and all that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 21:04:17
Fair enough.  But we all know there were 1m+ anti-Brexit protestors there as well.

Don't start on the number twisting thing.  Trump tried it and made a dick of himself.  No one falls for it.
Yeah they fucking do. the Inde and other media outlets makes shite up about millions of commies protesting when there isn't and then the bbc run with it.
Trumps got nothing to do with those that lost thinking they won.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Saturday, March 30, 2019, 22:28:09
Euro scare stories?  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

The odious, smirking MEP pension scrounger from Sevenoaks Public School (with an attendance record worse than some of our worst democratically ennobled Lords) insulted the Euro Parliament on the marking of the 10th anniversary of the Euro.   Classlessly laughing that the currency would be dead before another 10 years was out.  

More Brexitist Project Fear.

Even Diane Abbott could  count the 11 years that followed.

That’s despicable. The Euro has caused serious detriment to the southern countries-such as Spain, Italy, and Greece. Their economies are on their knees with youth unemployment standing at nearly 50%- all because they don’t have their own currency which they could devalue to kick start their economies.

Maggie said in the late 80s what damage a single currency could do to Southern Europe and that it was a federal Europe by the back door. Not for the first time she’s been proved right


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 06:56:41
And you clearly think that those trying to get us out of the EU are doing it for benign, pure motives.  For the record Im not totally convinced of the European project. 

But I will say it again and again.  17m voted to get out - there were illegalities in that.  16m voted to stay in.

14m didnt know.  I do not consider that a mandate to spend 3 years shouting about the will of the people as if the only people who matter are those 17m.




Spot on


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 07:39:42
That’s despicable. The Euro has caused serious detriment to the southern countries-such as Spain, Italy, and Greece. Their economies are on their knees with youth unemployment standing at nearly 50%- all because they don’t have their own currency which they could devalue to kick start their economies.

Maggie said in the late 80s what damage a single currency could do to Southern Europe and that it was a federal Europe by the back door. Not for the first time she’s been proved right
What you said about predictions of Armageddon if the UK did not join the Euro is simply untrue.  I'm not sure how truthfully recalling Farage's prediction of the destruction of the Euro within 10 years, now unfulfilled, can be despicable?

I don't recall Mystic Maggie's predictions for "Southern Europe".  However, I'm not sure why a Brexitist should be so concerned about youth unemployment rates in three particular southern European countries anymore than in the rust bucket of the USA?  I would have thought the North East, the West Midlands and now Swindon would be more relevant.

There will be many better informed people than me to argue about the Euro as a whole.  It's main purpose, as I recall,  was to facilitate an increase in trade between Eurozone countries (without losing trade elsewhere) and I understand that objective to have been achieved.

Happy to follow any posts about the merits and dangers of the Euro. The Brexit point is that the UK has chosen to remain outside of it and has been content with that choice.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 12:02:34
Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse for the elite stopping a nation being free,  George Soros hands Gina Miller campaign £400,000 in desperate bid to STOP Brexit. Neither of them born in the UK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 12:23:12
I think that's £800k so far plus a promise of more to stop brexit. You've also got the cosy dinners for some conservatives. Spare change, however, from the £1 billion he made on the UK and erm a few years back.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 13:37:15
Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse for the elite stopping a nation being free,  George Soros hands Gina Miller campaign £400,000 in desperate bid to STOP Brexit. Neither of them born in the UK.
GM was born in British Guiana (now Guyana) 45 years ago when she was 10 years old.  Why you think we should be interested that she was born outside the UK is interesting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 14:03:10
I have never really understood Nationalism.  The argument against the euro for example, that poorer countries suffer.  Well, why shouldn't the North East of England be allowed a different currency than the pound, given Londons impact of its value?

Why should Scotland have to abide by the rules of a country who took control through force?

I have no affiliation to events before I was born.  Not saying there are events not worthy of remembering, but they are of a different time.  Britain is young, the Govt we want back is very new in it's current form and currency itself is new the way we know it today.  They will all change within several generations, it's what happens.

I think I am the peasants in Holy Grail


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 14:03:36
GM was born in British Guiana (now Guyana) 45 years ago when she was 10 years old.  Why you think we should be interested that she was born outside the UK is interesting.
She studied law at the Polytechnic of East London (now University of East London) but left without completing her finals because her parents wanted her in Guyana.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 14:06:19
GM was born in British Guiana (now Guyana) 45 years ago when she was 10 years old.  Why you think we should be interested that she was born outside the UK is interesting.
What she was 10 years old when she was born?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 14:08:42
I think the point is she was born in a colony and has spent most of her life in the UK itself, so what does the bit of land she was popped out matter?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 14:13:09
I think that's £800k so far plus a promise of more to stop brexit. You've also got the cosy dinners for some conservatives. Spare change, however, from the £1 billion he made on the UK and erm a few years back.
All true.

We've had plenty of funds coming in to the Leave/Remain campaigns.

Soros' 800 thousand donation to Miller is of course legit and transparent.

Personally I am more concerned by the Arron Banks fronted 8 million donated to Farage.  We know that it couldn't substantially havecome from the sale of Banks' insurance company as he first claimed.  I would love to be a fly on the wall at the National Crime Agency.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 14:16:15
What she was 10 years old when she was born?

Looks like I'd fail the English Language test :)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 14:52:38
It's worth remembering what Banks and Leave.eu actually spent that illegally-gained money on - the Cambridge Analytica connection, and how they managed to scrape the data of 50 million Facebook users, using competitions and memes, so they could target the ill-informed and disinterested. I think I may have fallen for it myself...
I just came across this Twitter thread which explains it pretty well. Let's hope it all comes out when there's a public inquiry into the Referendum campaign.

https://twitter.com/Nealb2010/status/1059068463933743104 (https://twitter.com/Nealb2010/status/1059068463933743104)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 14:59:24
Looks like I'd fail the English Language test :)


Who woodn't.see what I did there


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 16:42:30
Why should Scotland have to abide by the rules of a country who took control through force?

Not my area of expertise,  but I thought Scotland joined in a union with England pretty much voluntarily... the ill fated Panama expedition being a reason.  Besides,  by that point England had already been ruled by a Scottish king. 

The Welsh would have more of a case re a forced takeover... although they got their king earlier.  Last English king? Godwineson?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 17:03:58
the Welsh voted leave


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 17:34:00
the Welsh voted leave

Indeed. My point was more about a forced takeover. Edward I and that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 19:23:58
Not my area of expertise,  but I thought Scotland joined in a union with England pretty much voluntarily... the ill fated Panama expedition being a reason.  Besides,  by that point England had already been ruled by a Scottish king.  

The Welsh would have more of a case re a forced takeover... although they got their king earlier.  Last English king? Godwineson?

Even Harold II was related to Cnut a Viking.

The norvern part of Britannia, now known as Scotland, used to be made up of Northumbria, which stretched up to the Firth of Clyde, the Strathclyde Welsh, who occupied Dumfries and Galloway sort of area, Dalriada, which was the further north, west coast lands and islands, and then the far north Pictland.

Dalriada was a shared kingdom with norvern iron.  Collectively these Gaelic speakers were called Scotti.

However if you look into pre history.... my thing.... you can't help but notice the similarities running through the original neolithic cultures of Britain and Ireland.  That neolithic culture seems to have ground to a mysterious halt, the reasons for which are currently puzzling archaeologists and been replaced by the Beaker culture.  That beaker culture wasn't a trend, like everyone wearing Levi jeans didn't mean we'd been invaded by Americans, the DNA reseach has shown that Beaker people came from Eastern Europe.

By the Bronze Age, the British Isles had been pretty throroughly taken over by a unified culture of stone circle and round barrow construction the stone circle being more or less unique to our islands.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 20:08:18
My main concern with this Brexit malarkey is what is actually happening in this country whilst all these billions of pounds are being spent on us leaving the EU.

Knife crime is spiralling out of control in London, child poverty is at an all time high, it’s just doom doom and more gloom.

Hopefully the extra 350 million quid a week after Brexit will help turn this nightmare around. Society is a bleak place at the moment.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Sunday, March 31, 2019, 20:08:48
the Welsh voted leave

Which is somewhat baffling when you see the 'regeneration' that has taken place  - particularly in South Wales - with EU money.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, April 1, 2019, 08:52:32
Read this morning that Chris "Failing" Grayling has threatened to quit if Brexit doesn't go his way (surprise, surprise the idiot who's become a benchmark for inept Cabinet ministers is a Brexiteer). Obviously assumed it was an April Fool at first, but no, apparently, he thinks this is a threat


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 1, 2019, 08:53:37
That’s despicable. The Euro has caused serious detriment to the southern countries-such as Spain, Italy, and Greece. Their economies are on their knees with youth unemployment standing at nearly 50%- all because they don’t have their own currency which they could devalue to kick start their economies.


Yet even when Greece was in the depths of its self created mess, as they should never have joined the Euro support for remaining in the EU was 70% plus, likewise even now in both Spain and Italy they want to stay in so what is the problem....

See also the much made argument that another referendum would cause civil unrest and destroy democracy, yet the two countries who in the last few years that have done such a thing (Denmark and Ireland) are two of the happiest in Europe....

I suspect its just us, our arrogance and inflated self importance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 1, 2019, 08:56:04
GM was born in British Guiana (now Guyana) 45 years ago when she was 10 years old.  Why you think we should be interested that she was born outside the UK is interesting.

Especially when they all love to knock one out over the US born Johnson.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Monday, April 1, 2019, 08:57:26
https://youtu.be/-IL2XwSkFJQ (https://youtu.be/-IL2XwSkFJQ)

I think this sums it up!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 1, 2019, 09:02:26
I actually feel rather sorry for the many moderate Brexiteers who voted leave for a plethora of reasons, the whole thing is getting very hijacked....

Firstly we have the rather unpleasant sight of a fascist addressing the Brexit march in London, the cenotaph in the background being a particularly nice touch....

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2_Wpn6XgAAAcMu.jpg)

Whilst we have now had leading Breixtters....

Suella Braverman pushing the far-right anti-Semitic conspiracy theory of 'Cultural Marxism' used by Anders Breivik. https://www.businessinsider.com/con...racy-theory-cultural-marxism-2019-3?r=US&IR=T and https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-for-rightwingers-who-love-to-play-the-victim

Tory MPs calling themselves”Grand Wizards”, a KKK Reference.

And now JRM supporting his position by quoting German Neo-Nazis, the AfD. The same AfD which was funded by Putin and boosted by Bannon. https://twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1112428768193404935

On top of all this, 3 years on from the referendum and what have we learnt.

-Turkey isn't joining the EU
-It wasn't the easiest deal in history
-There was no £350 million for NHS
-Food won't be cheaper
-Manufacturing isn't safe
-UK didn't hold all the cards

Its getting rather messy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, April 1, 2019, 09:10:37

Firstly we have the rather unpleasant sight of a fascist addressing the Brexit march in London, the cenotaph in the background being a particularly nice touch....

tbf Tommy the Toytown Nazi addressed one of the Brexit marches, the UKIP one, as UKIP under Batten seem to have gone completely over to the far-right. He also showed them an hour-long film about himself, nothing like being self-obssessed. The slightly larger one was Farage's lot, who managed to avoid having any actual overt fascists addressing the crowd and also apparently managed to talk about Brexit rather than themselves (except for Farage who can't help himself)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 1, 2019, 11:47:30
BTW its 1st April so hasn't the new EU tax regs come into force (the rules that entirely coincidentally were coming in immediately after we left after invoking A50 in such a rush?), we are still in come on investigators get some quick easy wins against JRM, Banks etc!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, April 1, 2019, 12:53:25
So May is whipping against indicative votes. LITERALLY trying to stop people from finding a solution.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 1, 2019, 13:05:42
So May is whipping against indicative votes. LITERALLY trying to stop people from finding a solution.

Yeah but the EU.......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, April 1, 2019, 13:50:34
Quote from: Flashheart
So May is whipping against indicative votes. LITERALLY trying to stop people from finding a solution.

where did you read that?

not doubting it, far from, just doesn't seem very prominent in the news


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, April 1, 2019, 13:52:22
https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1112681028194353152


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, April 1, 2019, 14:02:51
thanks :(


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, April 1, 2019, 14:07:47
OK, so whipped to reject the "indicative votes business motion", MPs given a free vote on the indications, but cabinet are again to abstain.

What does the first bit mean?! Less binding?

Also Labour whipping for CM/Norway 2.0. (SDP also backing it)

edit: OK, if the business motion fails, the voting is off. FFS!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 1, 2019, 14:16:57
OK, so whipped to reject the "indicative votes business motion", MPs given a free vote on the indications, but cabinet are again to abstain.

What does the first bit mean?! Less binding?

Also Labour whipping for CM/Norway 2.0. (SDP also backing it)

edit: OK, if the business motion fails, the voting is off. FFS!

I assume you mean SNP, but isn't it just window dressing anyway as CU means very little in terms of protecting UK jobs and business without the SM bit alongside it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, April 1, 2019, 15:17:00
yes sdp, sorry


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Monday, April 1, 2019, 15:23:20
I assume you mean SNP, but isn't it just window dressing anyway as CU means very little in terms of protecting UK jobs and business without the SM bit alongside it?

Common Market 2.0 includes them both does it not?.

Labour seem to be voting for not quite want they want in order to stop May deal. Looks like it might get through


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 1, 2019, 15:42:39
Common Market 2.0 includes them both does it not?.

Labour seem to be voting for not quite want they want in order to stop May deal. Looks like it might get through

So basically its leaving the EU, but still having to pay cash in, obey and relevant laws they vote through, retain freedom of movement but we don't sit in the EU parliament or get to vote on the rules....

So much the same as now but with no control over things, isn't this just taking us to a position where the Brexiteers claimed we were (we weren't really) 3 years ago?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, April 1, 2019, 16:26:20
So much the same as now but with no control over things, isn't this just taking us to a position where the Brexiteers claimed we were (we weren't really) 3 years ago?

Damage limitation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, April 1, 2019, 16:27:28
Common Market 2.0 includes them both does it not?.

Labour seem to be voting for not quite want they want in order to stop May deal. Looks like it might get through

Does it though. Even if it gets a majority May will ignore it, carry on with "not what people voted" for and somehow try and get her deal through again.

Its not binding.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 1, 2019, 21:11:30
Does it though. Even if it gets a majority May will ignore it, carry on with "not what people voted" for and somehow try and get her deal through again.

Its not binding.

No need to think about this any longer... all amendments voted down.

So back to May's deal or no deal... which again looks favourite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, April 1, 2019, 21:12:48
useless, utterly useless


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, April 1, 2019, 22:03:22
The whole thing tonight was a futile exercise in "voting for rainbow skittle-shitting giraffes" anyway as none of the options being voted on were actually on the table. All the options they were voting on pertained to the future relationship which as Barnier and Juncker have made clear cannot be negotiated until we enter the transition period AFTER WE FUCKING LEAVE. There are three options on the table - leave with No Deal, leave with May's deal, beg for an extension. That's it. That's what is on the table. Fucking pick one or resign en masse the lot of you. Preferably both.

MPs are sitting there dreamily picking out  (or rather failing to pick out) their chosen ideal scenario as if we can then just go to the EU and say "We'll have this" without considering the possibility that the EU may have rather different views on that. Deluded waste of space navel gazing of the highest order.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Monday, April 1, 2019, 22:24:15
Common Market 2.0 - Lab in favour, Con not
Confirmatory Referendum - Lab in favour, Con not
Customs Union - Lab in favour, Con not
Parliamentary Supremacy - Lab in favour, Con not


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 07:43:07
I went to the European Parliament in Brussels yesterday. I made my protest outside the European Commission and INSIDE the "hemicycle" debating chamber of the parliament. I made my point that they should NOT have extended beyond 29th March 2019. No deal - let's get on with it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 07:48:26
Oh well that will sort it out then. INSIDE the hemicycle? Blimey, Barnier won't be able to cave in fast enough


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 07:59:50
I think we can all breathe a sigh of relief now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 08:03:45
I guess we should be grateful he didn't get his arse out in the Commons. Lots of arseholes on show there last night, very few of them in the public gallery


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 08:25:22
I went to the European Parliament in Brussels yesterday. I made my protest outside the European Commission and INSIDE the "hemicycle" debating chamber of the parliament. I made my point that they should NOT have extended beyond 29th March 2019. No deal - let's get on with it.

Did you go with your mate SRK?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 08:33:47
Did you go with your mate SRK?

I imagine he was too busy watching Alf Garnett re-runs


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 09:02:10
I have pics to prove my protests. Better non-violent direct action than typing about how financially worse off you might be rather than thinking of the stategic, political principles at stake.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 09:05:28
I have pics to prove my protests. Better non-violent direct action than typing about how financially worse off you might be rather than thinking of the stategic, political principles at stake.

Post them.  Double points if you're wearing a Town shirt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 09:32:51
Post them.
God, not if he's got his arse out. Fair play though, CU, might disagree with you on the overall issues, but at least you've got off your arse to back up what you believe in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 09:36:13
I went to the European Parliament in Brussels yesterday. I made my protest outside the European Commission and INSIDE the "hemicycle" debating chamber of the parliament. I made my point that they should NOT have extended beyond 29th March 2019. No deal - let's get on with it.

In the hope that a time machine would have been presented and they could have taken some action on your point?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 10:07:45
Common Market 2.0 - Lab in favour, Con not
Confirmatory Referendum - Lab in favour, Con not
Customs Union - Lab in favour, Con not
Parliamentary Supremacy - Lab in favour, Con not

It should also be noted given the closeness of the votes on Common Market 2 and Customs Union that the Lib Dems, who are supported by several leading voices on here voted against.

I'd be interested to hear from Horlock and Ardiles the thinking behind this... I know these were indicative votes, and therefore meaningless to an extent.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 10:19:26
And how did Chukka's lot decide to vote?  Against the custom union of course.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 10:24:45
It should also be noted given the closeness of the votes on Common Market 2 and Customs Union that the Lib Dems, who are supported by several leading voices on here voted against.

I'd be interested to hear from Horlock and Ardiles the thinking behind this... I know these were indicative votes, and therefore meaningless to an extent.

You have a long memory, Reg.  I have supported the Lib Dems in the past and I'm still sympathetic to a lot of what they stand for, but they didn't get my vote in 2017.

The indicative votes process seems to have been very flawed.  As Ken Clarke pointed out, many supporters of one option voted against their 2nd best option in fear that their main preference would lose ground.  So, for example, many supporters of a confirmatory referendum voted against the Common Market 2.0 option - even though many will have been broadly supportive of it.  I don't doubt that what you say about the Lib Dems is true and, that being the case, that they screwed up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 10:53:50
I went to the European Parliament in Brussels yesterday. I made my protest outside the European Commission and INSIDE the "hemicycle" debating chamber of the parliament. I made my point that they should NOT have extended beyond 29th March 2019. No deal - let's get on with it.

But but but, I protest, I protest...I thought you said "EVERY second the clock ticks on..." etc. Well we haven't left on the 29th March. We very likely will leave on April 12th/May 22nd (in some form or another) but all your shit stirring, WUM bullshit you kept on about. Go and sit down and have a very long think about things. You very naughty boy!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 11:22:03
My pics will not upload as they are too large. What do I need to do? I have followed the instructions on here.

I received my polling card today for Swindon Borough elections on your 2nd May. It mentions nothing about taking ID. Has the pilot not being continued?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 11:30:14
Go to something like https://compressjpeg.com/ and it will compress your files/jpeg/gif/pdf etc for you. Especially if you don't know how to do it yourself or can't be arsed. It will make your pics come under 1000kb/1mb.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 11:49:21
I received my polling card today for Swindon Borough elections on your 2nd May.
Do you have a different calendar to the rest of us then? "One of your earth months" :alien:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 11:57:04
You have a long memory, Reg.  I have supported the Lib Dems in the past and I'm still sympathetic to a lot of what they stand for, but they didn't get my vote in 2017.

The indicative votes process seems to have been very flawed.  As Ken Clarke pointed out, many supporters of one option voted against their 2nd best option in fear that their main preference would lose ground.  So, for example, many supporters of a confirmatory referendum voted against the Common Market 2.0 option - even though many will have been broadly supportive of it.  I don't doubt that what you say about the Lib Dems is true and, that being the case, that they screwed up.

Never underestimate the ability of the Corbynsita to remember the Lib Dems when it is handy to ignore the anointed one actively delivering the Brexit of JRM, Johnson and Gove for so long.

FWIW the majority abstained on the Customs Union one and it was split on the CM2 one, but hey ho.

The Lib Dems, like many got tied up in the way you describe above and its time for the MP's supporting softer options to get their houses and order and stop voting against what they don't like and strat considering what would actually be least damaging to the country as a whole

As we are in a questioning mood, I would be interested in hearing Regs thoughts of the 24 Labour MP's who voted against the 3 line whip on the confirmatory vote, which if they had followed would have been more than enough to get that over the line?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 12:07:00
It should also be noted given the closeness of the votes on Common Market 2 and Customs Union that the Lib Dems, who are supported by several leading voices on here voted against.

Some of the Lib Dems. Norman Lamb, who is leading the very small field for the title of my favourite MP, voted in favour. As did Farron.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 12:07:41
Never underestimate the ability of the Corbynsita to remember the Lib Dems when it is handy to ignore the anointed one actively delivering the Brexit of JRM, Johnson and Gove for so long.

FWIW the majority abstained on the Customs Union one and it was split on the CM2 one, but hey ho.

The Lib Dems, like many got tied up in the way you describe above and its time for the MP's supporting softer options to get their houses and order and stop voting against what they don't like and strat considering what would actually be least damaging to the country as a whole

As we are in a questioning mood, I would be interested in hearing Regs thoughts of the 24 Labour MP's who voted against the 3 line whip on the confirmatory vote, which if they had followed would have been more than enough to get that over the line?

I would guess, and I don't know that they are from heavy referendum leave constituencies and feel obliged to follow the advice of their electorate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 12:23:38
Some of the Lib Dems. Norman Lamb, who is leading the very small field for the title of my favourite MP, voted in favour. As did Farron.

Surprised to hear Farron is still a Lib Dem, let alone an MP given his views on homosexuality.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 12:30:40
Richard Price
Leigh McMillan
Kristopher Allan
John Broomfield

They just cannot help themselves can they?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-47693525


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 13:58:09
They just cannot help themselves can they?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-47693525
Beeb have put up a longer piece on the "Nazi terrorist paedo", frightening:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-44798649


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 14:07:20
The far right and paedophilia. Name a more iconic duo.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 14:10:16
Fritzel and his daughters?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 14:25:21
Fritzel and his daughters?

Fritzel Senior (Elisabeth's grandfather) - literally a nazi.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 14:27:03
aaah, I see. QED


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 14:58:07
Go to something like https://compressjpeg.com/ and it will compress your files/jpeg/gif/pdf etc for you. Especially if you don't know how to do it yourself or can't be arsed. It will make your pics come under 1000kb/1mb.
Thank you but I still get a "413 entity too large" message. I'll show them to you in The Merlin


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 15:02:27


Go to https://imgur.com/upload, upload it there and copy the link.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 15:25:56
Helpful graphic showing where the blockages on the indicative votes have been coming from.

(https://i.imgur.com/NvcDorr.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 15:26:20

Go to https://imgur.com/upload, upload it there and copy the link.

The pictures don't exist BD. We all know CU is a WUM.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 15:28:32
Thank you but I still get a "413 entity too large" message. I'll show them to you in The Merlin

Would love to see them (if they existed), what time big boy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 15:35:09
https://m.imgur.com/a/pr3ihHW


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 15:48:53
All the graphics in the EU visitors centre will have to be replaced, and all the glossy literature, & the audio commentary in 24 different languages to remove references to the UK, the "28" etc.

 When I asked why one of the first nine countries to join was leaving I was quickly ushered along to make way for the  next group of very proud looking German visitors to have their smiling pics in front of the collection of flags. Interesting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 16:02:11
Europeans getting on with their business and not giving into the arrogant bullishness of a Brit thinking he’s more important than he actually is is a fairly good explanation for how the last two years have gone


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 16:03:50
As is that same Brit being caught abroad with his pants down


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 16:15:08
One stat from the commentary was that MEPs' ages range from 26 to 92.

Where are the UK MEPs in all of the discussions?

Have any of you been to the European Parliament? Bogey Dave, what did you think of it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 16:39:59
In my experience, Brian Blessed has a good take on things

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JaY7VTftPdY


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 16:51:35
Thank you. Do you have a graphic of the first round voting you can share please?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 17:15:34
She really is a piece of work.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 17:22:54
One stat from the commentary was that MEPs' ages range from 26 to 92.

Where are the UK MEPs in all of the discussions?

Have any of you been to the European Parliament? Bogey Dave, what did you think of it?

A lot of the uk Meps are actively avoiding the discussion, because that’s the kind of backwards logic that applies to brexit.

I’ve never been to European Parliament, like I’ve never been to UK parliament. I don’t see what your point is


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 17:33:19
Can kicking-tastic.

Still wants the WA through. Maybe at cost of agreeing softer brexit after. I'd be wanting legal assurances on her keeping her word.

But how the hell can the EU agree to this?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 17:39:00
Macron can provide the ultimate irony by not agreeing to an extension thereby triggering no deal. Maybe the EU can do what we can't and use our best bargaining tool against us.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 17:49:06
a short extension for no definite purpose seems somewhat contentious at least


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 17:56:05
Just watched TM's speech and I can confirm that she's a reminer liar. The Tories will never ever recover from this. It is straightforward treason and a clear defiance of democracy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 18:05:02
well, if she's annoyed the hard right it can't be all bad


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 18:15:41
well, if she's annoyed the hard right it can't be all bad
Let hope she's pissed of the evil hard left as well then we can all feel good.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 20:00:36
The Tories will never ever recover from this.

Fingers crossed, if she can trick Corbyn into fronting it and ensure they never recover as well, at least there will be positives from all this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 20:30:11
May and Corbyn working together -it's the dream team par excellence. She's clearly given up any hope of getting anything through, she knows it's going to be a car crash and she's trying to suck Corbyn into sharing the blame when it all goes tits up (for the 48th time).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 20:32:06
Just watched TM's speech and I can confirm that she's a reminer liar. The Tories will never ever recover from this. It is straightforward treason and a clear defiance of democracy.
You should drape your underpants on some railings and make pointed comments to a Commons tour guide. Your mate Combes Up put the fear of God into the EU like that


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 20:39:38
May and Corbyn the Williams and Sherwood of politics.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 21:06:19
Anyone on here young enough (possibly old enough too) to remember a programme called 'Round the Twist' at all?

The theme music is very much a description of Brexit or at least how it makes many of us feel!

https://youtu.be/KPxJ6RR40ZU


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 21:10:05
Yes it can. Thursday they could vote to extend, this can only go up until the EU elections in the summer, at which point the PM will no doubt push her deal again, except this time it will be with no opportunity to extend again. That, is the cliff edge.

Called it.  :toocool:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 21:30:38
May and Corbyn working together -it's the dream team par excellence. She's clearly given up any hope of getting anything through, she knows it's going to be a car crash and she's trying to suck Corbyn into sharing the blame when it all goes tits up (for the 48th time).

The big question is, what is in it for Corbyn/Labour to save May/The Tory Party. GE?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 21:51:06
You would like to think the potential wellbeing of the country but this is politics so Corbyn/Labour will want something for themselves out of it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 00:52:59
I wonder if any motion the Speaker chose not to have debated would actually have passed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 07:21:46
I wonder if any motion the Speaker chose not to have debated would actually have passed.
The mood MPs are in at the moment, I doubt they could unite around a motion that the sky is blue


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 08:46:22
May and Corbyn the Williams and Sherwood of politics.

Perfect comparison. Corbyn hopelessly out of his depth but seems like a nice guy, May just an objectionable arse who thinks extremely highly of herself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 08:52:20
One stat from the commentary was that MEPs' ages range from 26 to 92.

Where are the UK MEPs in all of the discussions?

Have any of you been to the European Parliament? Bogey Dave, what did you think of it?

A lot of them have been very vocal, however as they tend on the whole to actually have a clue how the EU and its component parts work in reality, the MSM have tended to avoid them like the plague and instead just go to Daniel Hannan (if Nigel is too busy doing QT), who rivals Farage in a) never turning up to represent those who elected him and b) in being entirely clueless of how the organisation he is part of actually works.

Yeah I have been the the European parliament, its just like any other institutional governmental building, just with fewer civil servants milling about.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 08:57:08
Can kicking-tastic.

Still wants the WA through. Maybe at cost of agreeing softer brexit after. I'd be wanting legal assurances on her keeping her word.

But how the hell can the EU agree to this?

Thing is as she promised to resign after phase 1 she actually cannot promise Corbyn anything, its whether Milne is clever enough to recognise this?

Macron can provide the ultimate irony by not agreeing to an extension thereby triggering no deal. Maybe the EU can do what we can't and use our best bargaining tool against us.

It already seems to be unravelling anyway as the EU have stated Brexit extension to May 22 (which was first offered at the last EU summit & is back in play if TM can convince EU that her new plan can deliver the deal) is ONLY an option if the UK commits to European Elections, also looks like even if she persuades them she can get things through at a date (April 12th is it?) to avoid participation they are going to demand she goes through the motions, legislation and preparation anyway so the protection is there in case she fails in her promises - the problem of being caught lying time and time again is that no one trusts you anymore to keep your word.

In other news one of the main financial backers of Brexit bets on the pound crashing, must confess never saw that coming...... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/09/09/hedge-funds-wager-3bn-pound-plunging-year-amid-no-deal-brexit/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Private Fraser on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 09:38:35
I don't have any great hopes for today's discussions. Will probably just be a re-run of...

https://twitter.com/i/status/1070679248900362240


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 09:41:51
You would like to think the potential wellbeing of the country but this is politics so Corbyn/Labour will want something for themselves out of it

Jeremy has shown throughout his political career that talking with people, however unpleasant, is always the best way forward... obviously Umunna excepted.

This is a national crisis and several figures like John Major have suggested that a National Government may be needed, particularly to get through the negotiations, after the WA is settled.

If it ended up in the lap of a Johnson for example.... it is very easy to see the tensions now manifest in society breaking out into something very, very unpleasant.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 09:44:01
In other news one of the main financial backers of Brexit bets on the pound crashing, must confess never saw that coming...... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/09/09/hedge-funds-wager-3bn-pound-plunging-year-amid-no-deal-brexit/

As will remaining, money giving, foreign interfering Soros. To be honest, if you're in that game you'd be negligent not to make money out of it - its what they do, Brexit, Remainer, Agnostic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dogs on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 10:48:41
I wouldn’t worry too much, we won’t be using the pound in the next decade anyhow and I’m sure when come the day we switch to the euro we’ll be shafted anyway.

This whole debacle should result in a final referendum, and it should be clear that:-

Leave = Leave means the UK leaves all EU institutions and everything associated to the EU to become a totally independent and sovereign state. Default onto WTO rules.

Remain = Stay in the EU, however we have a legally binding commitment to join the Euro, Schengen,  the rebate is phased out and a commitment to an EU army.

Get this thing sorted once and for all, because leaving on the terms presented, May’s deal or a soft Brexit will solve nothing.

Nobody could then argue how people decided to vote was an unknown quantity, nor that future risks were not considered.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 11:26:53
As I understand it, the EU "army" is not part of the EU membership, but instead a European style NATO effort that we were driving and are still looking to be a part of regardless of any type of Brexit.  Other than that, I agree.  Sadly I think the UK would still vote to leave if that was presented to them, but so be it.  It's not like I can complain having already jumped ship for a bit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 11:34:05
I wouldn’t worry too much, we won’t be using the pound in the next decade anyhow and I’m sure when come the day we switch to the euro we’ll be shafted anyway.

This whole debacle should result in a final referendum, and it should be clear that:-

Leave = Leave means the UK leaves all EU institutions and everything associated to the EU to become a totally independent and sovereign state. Default onto WTO rules.

Remain = Stay in the EU, however we have a legally binding commitment to join the Euro, Schengen,  the rebate is phased out and a commitment to an EU army.

Get this thing sorted once and for all, because leaving on the terms presented, May’s deal or a soft Brexit will solve nothing.

Nobody could then argue how people decided to vote was an unknown quantity, nor that future risks were not considered.


Why would that be the remain position, rather than ‘maintain our current standing and position in the Eu??’

Remain already has a simple, straightforward easy to implement and understand picture of the UK’s place. It’s the other side which haven’t got a fucking clue


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 11:40:21
Why would that be the remain position, rather than ‘maintain our current standing and position in the Eu??’

Remain already has a simple, straightforward easy to implement and understand picture of the UK’s place. It’s the other side which haven’t got a fucking clue

So those who voted remain (in the referendum on the EU) were actually voting for different version of remain?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 11:42:58
No, they were voting to remain in the EU

I see your argument though, and get it to a point

But remaining in the status quo doesn’t fuck everything up


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 12:12:14
As will remaining, money giving, foreign interfering Soros. To be honest, if you're in that game you'd be negligent not to make money out of it - its what they do, Brexit, Remainer, Agnostic.
You've got a bit of a Soros obsession of late. Been reading too many far right FB posts?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 12:26:45
I wouldn’t worry too much, we won’t be using the pound in the next decade anyhow and I’m sure when come the day we switch to the euro we’ll be shafted anyway.

This whole debacle should result in a final referendum, and it should be clear that:-

Leave = Leave means the UK leaves all EU institutions and everything associated to the EU to become a totally independent and sovereign state. Default onto WTO rules.

Remain = Stay in the EU, however we have a legally binding commitment to join the Euro, Schengen,  the rebate is phased out and a commitment to an EU army.

Get this thing sorted once and for all, because leaving on the terms presented, May’s deal or a soft Brexit will solve nothing.

Nobody could then argue how people decided to vote was an unknown quantity, nor that future risks were not considered.


No idea what the point you are making is, there is no suggestion that to remain we have to join the Euron or Schengen (despite the bollocks being spouted by various discredited prominent brexiteers the opt outs last in perpetuity and there is no real evidence of any sort of EU Army?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 12:29:34
In fairness to Dogs (OP) - the path we should be on is for ever closer integration and that should include the currency aspect.  We, as a Nation, just keep putting it off.  I'd like a Vote for completely In or completely Out.  Stop pretending to people around the goals of the EU, and equally, show the people what being Out really means.  It's the constant half hearted pro-Europe efforts for a generation that have created the path for people want to get out, layered on top of that is the negative stuff, so the case for being IN has never been made.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 12:31:38
You've got a bit of a Soros obsession of late. Been reading too many far right FB posts?
I'm just trying to add a bit of balance to the argument where there has been talk of Russian interference and alleged but yet unproven provision of funds. Soros is doing the same for the Remain side. Similarly when there is talk of Brexiteers profiting from the pound, they will not be alone and I can't see Soros missing that opportunity having made a cool billion previously. I'm sure there are other foreign nationals providing assistance on both sides, its inevitable.
I just get a bit pissy that Brexiteers are the bad guys and Remainers are saints. Pieces of shit on both sides. Just trying to bring balance.
Also, not on facebook so haven't got a clue whats on there. If I was I'd as likely read Remainer stuff as equally. I like Ian Dunt's stuff Horlock has posted. I don't agree with his punchline but he's a very clever and engaging writer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 12:35:45
You've got a bit of a Soros obsession of late. Been reading too many far right FB posts?

Thing is that most of the Soros stuff if you delve back into the detail comes from Hungary and his spat with Orban... The laziness of the reporting is shown by the fact that certain media outlets are still spinning this as a Soros donation to Gina Miller, despite her leaving the organisation involved way before Soros gave them a penny. But i suppose if one can link 2 of the bogeymen on the remain side, chances must be grasped.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 12:45:03
Gina miller left the organisation just before or after the donation so there is clear water between them but it's undeniable he's donated approx £800k to remaining organisations.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 12:48:49
Gina miller left the organisation just before or after the donation so there is clear water between them but it's undeniable he's donated approx £800k to remaining organisations.

So less than 10% of the Banks donations from offshore (dubious legally to start with), ultimate sources unknown although there is a vodka smelling trail of diamonds?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 12:49:42
I'm just trying to add a bit of balance to the argument where there has been talk of Russian interference and alleged but yet unproven provision of funds.
Not quite the same is it? Where Soros has donated to Remain, it's been done in the open, whereas the Russian interference has been via the back door, as in the US. Then too, there's the question of motive - Soros has opnely stated his motives in backing Remain is that he wants an open Europe; the Russians' motives are rather more murky but the overall strategy in Europe and the US seems to be largely aimed at destabilising the West's pillars of strength (as they see it, you may disagree). But mainly the far right love to blame Soros for all their woes because he's Jewish and the far right (like the far left these days) do love a good Jewish conspiracy, hence the "Jews will not replace us" of the Charlottesville marchers and the Christchurch massacre terrorist. Not suggesting you're swimming in those waters Chalkies but if you're finding yourself reading a lot of stuff repeatedly pointing the finger at Soros, you might want to question the sources and their motives


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 13:02:58
Most of the Soros conspiracy theories are in Icke territory.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 13:06:34
I couldn't give a shit what religion Soros is. I didn't even know he was jewish. The fact is he is a foreign national donating openly to the remain side. I haven't got a clue what his motives are. They may very well be altruistic, haven't got a clue.
I also haven't got a clue about the far right stuff you are talking about. I also couldn't give much of a shit about it.
As for the Russians, I don't actually doubt it but I'm not sure it has been proven so are allegations at this stage.
Both are foreign influences on brexit, that's all im trying to say and there will be others and it is to be expected on both sides.
I'm making no statements of right or wrong just that there is interference on both sides whether open or closed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dogs on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 13:09:53
In fairness to Dogs (OP) - the path we should be on is for ever closer integration and that should include the currency aspect.  We, as a Nation, just keep putting it off.  I'd like a Vote for completely In or completely Out.  Stop pretending to people around the goals of the EU, and equally, show the people what being Out really means.  It's the constant half hearted pro-Europe efforts for a generation that have created the path for people want to get out, layered on top of that is the negative stuff, so the case for being IN has never been made.

Indeed. There needs to be transparency to the debate on both sides of each position. What I’ve mainly seen since the 2016 referendum is an out and out attack on the leave position/direction of travel (rightly or wrongly) with little focus on why there was so much opposition prior to and continuing to be a member of the EU where it comes to the future plans for the bloc.

It's not plausible to think that we can effectively remain as a half-arsed member, half in, half out ad infinitum. It would be naive to think we can, especially after our glaring weaknesses have now been exposed for the rest of the world and most importantly the EU, to see.

Eventually a decision will need to be made around our commitment to the areas I have mentioned. You could argue that a ‘remainer’ who wants to only remain on existing terms is themselves showing a degree of euro-sceptism, because you would have to ask why they are opposed to full integration. Until this debate is truly had, I fully expect continuous division and sceptism to continue.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 13:14:21
So those who voted remain (in the referendum on the EU) were actually voting for different version of remain?

If the option was on the ballot paper I would have voted for a different version of remain.  It wasn't, hence shows that the referendum was badly thought out and delivered.  Cheers Dave.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 13:24:27
As Bankski is getting a mention, http://rainbowsandlollipops.net/bad-boys-of-brexit-arron-banks/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 13:33:00
I couldn't give a shit what religion Soros is. I didn't even know he was jewish.
I didn't say you did, in fact I explicitly said I didn't think you were swimming in those waters. I said that if you find a lot of the stuff you are reading is flagging up Soros, it's quite often used as a dogwhistle by people with much murkier motives into Jewish conspiracy territory, so maybe start to question where the people who are saying that are actually coming from. Are they really supporting Brexit or using it as an entry point/recruiting tool for the far right?
I'm making no statements of right or wrong just that there is interference on both sides whether open or closed.
Well yeah. There always has been, since the Cold War. What has changed is that the advent of social media has given much more powerful tools to malignant forces that wish to manipulate or wreck democracy - look at the damage inflicted on our body politic, the US and many European democracies over the last 5 years and ask yourself who is benefiting from this?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 13:48:37
I think its quite valid to talk about Soros donating £800k to Remainer parties without being a right wing nut job or Russian troll. All i was doing was stating a verifiable fact that he himself has admitted - no need for me to go searching through dodgy websites. I wouldn't even know where to look. As for his motives, I don't actually care. I'm sure there are equally shitty left wing sites agitating as there are right wing. Lucky, I dont read either. Why would you when you can get your news from here. Maybe tans needs to branch out into Brexit related news.
I expect people to throw money at this shit and try and use it to their own ends. The world is a lot smaller. Its just that some people believe money thrown at Remainers is altruistic but money thrown at leave malevalent. Unfortunately, unlike the 50s movies, the goodies don't wear white and the baddies black.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 13:59:59
I am not so sure the money spent by either side did much more than entrench people.

The 40 years of undermining the EU for political gain at home was the biggest problem the "Remain" side faced, many of whom were involved in that very effort to undermine.  Layer on top the Daily Mail gang, who were not just anti-EU but anti-anything non "British", and you had a very shaky foundation on which to build a pro-active campaign to get people to support being in the EU.

Being in the EU means many of the things people are scared of.  Instead of building a positive case for integration, we spent 40 years trying to tell everyone it was ok, we didn't need to worry about all the scary stuff because we could opt out.  So at best they were told it's not as bad as you think and at worst they were told it's a fucking con job, you are all going to lose your jobs because cheap Polaks are going to invade and work for free on top of somehow claiming all your benefits as well.

The fact Cameron had to go seeking a deal for staying in speaks volumes about our approach.  Instead we should be explaining why a single currency in a single trading market with freedom of movement is a good thing for people.  Let other people argue why that is bad for people and create clear distance between the two opinions (which is what they both are).  But don't try and undermine being IN then wonder why people vote OUT.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 14:04:21
If the option was on the ballot paper I would have voted for a different version of remain.
But the EU will change massively in the next few years anyway, so no-one knows what remain implies. One of the strongest arguments for remain I've seen is that, with the resignation of Merkel and the uncertainty around Macron, the centre of gravity is shifting and there would be a massive opportunity for Britain to fill the vacuum and lead in Europe if we wanted to accept the challenge.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 14:16:36
But the EU will change massively in the next few years anyway, so no-one knows what remain implies. One of the strongest arguments for remain I've seen is that, with the resignation of Merkel and the uncertainty around Macron, the centre of gravity is shifting and there would be a massive opportunity for Britain to fill the vacuum and lead in Europe if we wanted to accept the challenge.
I think France and Germany have the power sewn up nicely regardless of leader. We might be able to influence a few of the naughty boys like Poland or Hungary but that's it. We've always been reluctant members. In my lifetime we will never have a dominant role in the EU and less chance now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 14:24:38
I think France and Germany have the power sewn up nicely regardless of leader. We might be able to influence a few of the naughty boys like Poland or Hungary but that's it. We've always been reluctant members. In my lifetime we will never have a dominant role in the EU and less chance now.

Sadly another Brexiteer myth.....

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/07/09/british-influence-in-brussels-had-been-far-greater-than-recognised/

It is ironic that so much we apparently hate about the EU was conceived and championed by us in the first place.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 14:39:31
Sadly another Brexiteer myth.....

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/07/09/british-influence-in-brussels-had-been-far-greater-than-recognised/

It is ironic that so much we apparently hate about the EU was conceived and championed by us in the first place.....

Nice jumper modelled by Maggie.
I wonder if a similar pattern is available for underpants.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 14:42:12
Nice jumper modelled by Maggie.
I wonder if a similar pattern is available for underpants.

Now that is something I could fully commit myself to!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 15:23:19
Another minister gone......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 15:30:31
he's irrelevant

(junior minister from Department for Exiting the European Union )

If there's to be mass resignations, it'll be if Corbyn/May agree on something not palatable (inevitable?)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 15:32:40
he's irrelevant

(junior minister from Department for Exiting the European Union )

If there's to be mass resignations, it'll be if Corbyn/May agree on something not palatable (inevitable?)

This made me chuckle, tweeted by a political editor from Newsnight....

This is worthy of Yes Prime Minister. Govt source on challenge of reaching agreement between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn on a customs union: our position is a customs union but we don’t call it that. Labour’s position is not a customs union but they do call it that...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 15:34:10
More definitely not shady behaviour from leave campaigners

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/03/grassroots-facebook-brexit-ads-secretly-run-by-staff-of-lynton-crosby-firm


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 17:05:29
Juncker's told May to stick a short delay where the sun don't shine. So the 4 options are:
1) Agree some form of May's deal and leave on those terms by next Friday
2) Leave without a deal next Friday
3) Revoke Article 50 by next Friday
4) Agree a long extension to the Article 50 period by next Friday


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 18:12:10
Another of Farage's new Brexit party officials quit, this time for anti-Semitic and homophobic posts:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/apr/03/brexit-party-official-removed-after-antisemitic-posts

For a party that hasn't really launched yet, they do seem to be getting through the bigots quite quickly. Especially as it was set up to provide an alternative to UKIP now that Batten's taken them fully into the far right camp.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 18:46:02
Another of Farage's new Brexit party officials quit, this time for anti-Semitic and homophobic posts:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/apr/03/brexit-party-official-removed-after-antisemitic-posts

For a party that hasn't really launched yet, they do seem to be getting through the bigots quite quickly. Especially as it was set up to provide an alternative to UKIP now that Batten's taken them fully into the far right camp.
along with this lot  https://order-order.com/2019/04/01/labour-pcc-wrote-fkin-ethiopian-jew-look-like-ethiopian-jew/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Thursday, April 4, 2019, 10:52:59
But the EU will change massively in the next few years anyway, so no-one knows what remain implies. One of the strongest arguments for remain I've seen is that, with the resignation of Merkel and the uncertainty around Macron, the centre of gravity is shifting and there would be a massive opportunity for Britain to fill the vacuum and lead in Europe if we wanted to accept the challenge.

We would have to find a suitable leader first, i certainly haven't seen evidence of one in any party over the past 3 years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 4, 2019, 11:12:20
We would have to find a suitable leader first, i certainly haven't seen evidence of one in any party over the past 3 years.

In the run up to the Euro elections which we may or may not be participating in, there is hope ( for those favouring) that the renewed rightward shift in Europe, could lead to the European Parliament driving a populist agenda...   so we see the likes of Salvini trying to woo Rees Mogg's mates in the AfD, Le Pen, Orban and the Polish Law and Justice party.   There's a certain irony that the likes of Farage, would probably have seen himself as some sort of leader of this grouping, just at the time we're leaving.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 4, 2019, 12:33:11
In the run up to the Euro elections which we may or may not be participating in, there is hope ( for those favouring) that the renewed rightward shift in Europe, could lead to the European Parliament driving a populist agenda...   so we see the likes of Salvini trying to woo Rees Mogg's mates in the AfD, Le Pen, Orban and the Polish Law and Justice party. 
Call them what they are, they're not populists, they're unapologetic fascists


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 4, 2019, 12:57:58
Absolutely hilarious the sight of all these hard right Brexiteers dashing to the cameras to foam at the mouth at the prospect of May doing a deal with Corbyn. She spent 2 years trying to pander to your every whim, you had control of the whole process for 2 years and you fucked it up. This is literally what you have voted for, in a succession of votes where you rejected everything put to you. May is a shit prime minister, but you have to admire her trolling


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, April 4, 2019, 13:59:31
The cleverest thing the Devil ever did was to make people think he isn't real.The cleverest thing the State ever did was to pretend we lived in a democracy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, April 4, 2019, 15:09:42
The cleverest thing the Devil ever did was to make people think he isn't real.The cleverest thing the State ever did was to pretend we lived in a democracy.

Do some history research will you.  It's less than 100 years that more than 50% of the British population have been allowed to vote for the Government.  319 years since 5% were allowed that "privilege".

This democracy you talk of is still in it's infancy.  Anyone would think we've been a one person one vote democratic nation for centuries - the EU is actually more democratic in the way it is run than Britain was in 1917.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kirky69 on Thursday, April 4, 2019, 15:40:47
I see the ERG element are trying to stall the House of Lords debate on forcing May to seek a further delay to Brexit. They really are a vile bunch. Maybe we can adapt the  "build a bonfire song" to include Jacob Rees Mogg, Steve Baker and the particularly odious Mark Francois!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, April 4, 2019, 15:58:27
I see the ERG element are trying to stall the House of Lords debate on forcing May to seek a further delay to Brexit. They really are a vile bunch. Maybe we can adapt the  "build a bonfire song" to include Jacob Rees Mogg, Steve Baker and the particularly odious Mark Francois!

You mean something like...

Build a bonfire,
Build a bonfire,
Put Mark Francois at the top,
Put Steve Baker in the middle,
And we'll burn the Rees-Mogg lot...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, April 4, 2019, 16:08:32
if you put Mark Francois on the bonfire, would he go lighter or darker red than when gets shitty in the HoC?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, April 4, 2019, 16:13:23
if you put Mark Francois on the bonfire, would he go lighter or darker red than when gets shitty in the HoC?

Good question. I'll go for lighter. Like a kind of "white hot".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, April 4, 2019, 19:58:28
What nice people those remainers are.  England hero Peter Shilton reveals his wife has been sent 'abusive texts' due to his pro-Brexit beliefs. Some one must be worried their gravy train lifestyle might be coming to an end.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, April 4, 2019, 20:17:29
When did he become a hero?

Regardless, as it's texts, maybe his wife should consider the shitty company she keeps.  More than half the population voted, plenty of them will be below average intelligence on both sides of the vote - simple laws of averages dictate that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 4, 2019, 22:05:17
What nice people those remainers are.  England hero Peter Shilton reveals his wife has been sent 'abusive texts' due to his pro-Brexit beliefs. Some one must be worried their gravy train lifestyle might be coming to an end.
Yeah, cos it will definitely be Peter Mandelson sending Shilton's missus shitty texts. Or possibly Farage - he's been riding that gravy train for longer than most (and still is). Good job you can safely make this kind of point without being accused of living in glass houses because Anna Soubry, Gina Miller, Yvette Cooper, Diane Abbott have none of them been deluged with 100s of rape, kidnap and murder threats because of their stance on Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 4, 2019, 22:10:52
I see Justin T has been promoted back into ministerial ranks again as Minister for the Disabled (again).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kirky69 on Friday, April 5, 2019, 01:06:23
You mean something like...

Build a bonfire,
Build a bonfire,
Put Mark Francois at the top,
Put Steve Baker in the middle,
And we'll burn the Rees-Mogg lot...

Perfect


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Friday, April 5, 2019, 06:09:27
You mean something like...

Build a bonfire,
Build a bonfire,
Put Mark Francois at the top,
Put Steve Baker in the middle,
And we'll burn the Rees-Mogg lot...

I don't think he'll be causing the Ivor Novello judges many sleepless nights.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, April 5, 2019, 07:06:22
1 year ‘flextension’ now mooted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, April 5, 2019, 07:40:49
They could have a 20 year extension and still be no fucking nearer a solution. Leave no deal or stay. All other options are shite. At some stage you're going to have to piss off a lot of people, just do it instead of the shit show and fucking everybody off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 5, 2019, 08:32:19
So she is now asking for an extension until 30th June, not sure what its actually going to achieve really but at least sets the groundwork for the EU elections which I hope go ahead if only for the comedy and red faces.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 5, 2019, 09:02:53
They could have a 20 year extension and still be no fucking nearer a solution. Leave no deal or stay. All other options are shite. At some stage you're going to have to piss off a lot of people, just do it instead of the shit show and fucking everybody off.
Completely agree. Although along the lines of pissing everybody off, May's deal is still one of the options. But FFS shit or get off the pot


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 5, 2019, 09:19:44
They could have a 20 year extension and still be no fucking nearer a solution. Leave no deal or stay. All other options are shite. At some stage you're going to have to piss off a lot of people, just do it instead of the shit show and fucking everybody off.


I am not sure how any MP with a conscience can vote for no deal when their Civil Servants are providing them such such analysis....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6875015/Top-mandarins-bombshell-No-Deal-Brexit-warning.html

At what stage does voting for something that you are being advised will harm the nation become a little bit nawty?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 5, 2019, 09:22:25
I am not sure how any MP with a conscience can vote for no deal when their Civil Servants are providing them such such analysis....
Well as soon as you can find one of those, please do let us all know :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 5, 2019, 09:25:58
The lovely Katya seems to sum it up here https://twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/status/1114080691518627840


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 5, 2019, 09:31:59
Well as soon as you can find one of those, please do let us all know :)

Question is at what stage does an MP voting for something they are being advised by their CS's is going to cause such damage to the nation not be a bit, you know, treasonous?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 5, 2019, 09:33:59
Question is at what stage does an MP voting for something they are being advised by their CS's is going to cause such damage to the nation not be a bit, you know, treasonous?
Tower for the lot of them! In all seriousness, I've made precisely this point about specifically Johnson, Gove and Farage - that they knowingly lied to the electorate to advance a cause they knew would be damaging to the nation's interests. Additionally Arron Banks accepted/laundered money from a hostile power to do so. Although I'd be wary of setting a precedent by using the Treason Act (e.g. the Daily Mail et al with their "Traitors" headlines and the facebook loons with their calls for "Behead the Brexit Traitors), but surely it must amount to the less emotive offence of malfeasance in public office? And I'd sling Cameron in alongside them for gross negligence in the way he carelessly foisted this calamity on the country to sort out his internal party issues


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 5, 2019, 09:49:35
Don't worry Jacob has a well mannerd, grown up clever solution....

https://twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1114086264024727554

Don't forget this is the same guy who said the UK had no power to do any of these things in the EU and that’s why we had to leave.

But he has got a plummy voice so he must be clever and followed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, April 5, 2019, 10:53:01
I am not sure how any MP with a conscience can vote for no deal when their Civil Servants are providing them such such analysis....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6875015/Top-mandarins-bombshell-No-Deal-Brexit-warning.html

At what stage does voting for something that you are being advised will harm the nation become a little bit nawty?
In that case just be honest with the electorate and tell them we're staying and in the words of the obnoxious Anna Soubry - suck it up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, April 5, 2019, 11:04:58
Don't worry Jacob has a well mannerd, grown up clever solution....

https://twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1114086264024727554

Don't forget this is the same guy who said the UK had no power to do any of these things in the EU and that’s why we had to leave.

But he has got a plummy voice so he must be clever and followed.

Twit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 5, 2019, 11:05:49
Twit.
Bit rude, horlock's always struck me as quite intelligent :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 5, 2019, 11:08:33
In that case just be honest with the electorate and tell them we're staying and in the words of the obnoxious Anna Soubry - suck it up.

But that's not Mays style is it, she will do anything she can to cling to power just for a few more days,

I know you like a bit of Dunt, so here is his take....

'You would have thought, by law of averages, that Theresa May would occasionally behave in a way that looked dignified or principled, even if only by chance, but it simply never happens. Every action she takes is defined by self-serving irresponsibility and deception. She is, if nothing else, utterly reliable. You can set your moral watch by her: Whatever she is doing, it is by definition the worst way you could possibly behave in the circumstances.

Take her letter to Donald Tusk this morning. The nuts and bolts of it are positive. She's requesting an extension to Article 50 to avoid a cliff edge next week. She is launching preparations for European elections so that we can extend further in the future. All good. But just look at the manner in which she framed all this.

Just hours before the prime minister sent her letter, reports emerged that European Council president Donald Tusk would offer Britain a one-year extension to next April. And yet in her letter, May still asked for a short extension to June 30th, even though she knew it would be rejected.

It is quite extraordinary how consistent her failure is. The facts change around her, but it makes no difference. She sees the offer, then does what she was going to do anyway, knowing that this will involve defeat in just a few days time. It's like the Brexit negotiations never went away: a British team with no imagination, no emotional or strategic intelligence, trying the same things over and over again to no avail.

Of course, May's real tactic is to blame the EU for forcing a long extension. She doesn't propose a realistic end date herself, because she wants to be able to pretend that it was pushed on her by Brussels. She is quite literally setting herself up for failure.

It is such a profoundly honourless way to behave. It has become very tiring indeed to watch this country be led by someone with such low ethical standards in their conduct. And worst of all, for the global media to be covering it while it happens. Brexit is not just reducing us in the world's eyes as a political project. May's manner, her approach to diplomacy, is so shameful that it is hurting the world's impression of what constitutes the British personality. She is making us look scheming and inept. You can get away with being one of those things. Being both is dreadful.

We are now stuck in the extraordinary situation of watching our negotiating partner force a more advantageous situation on us against our stated will. This is admittedly for their own reasons. They have no intention of holding emergency summits every month to extend the timetable again each time May fails. So they prefer a one-year extension which can be cancelled whenever a deal is agreed.

This is being termed - in the dreadful portmanteau manner we are seemingly condemned to inflict on ourselves - a 'flextension'. But in reality it is just the standard operating system for Article 50. The original legal text says that EU laws cease to apply "from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification". There was no reason to think the extension rules would operate differently.

On the basic level of national self-interest - you know, the way most countries behave and which we did too not so long ago - asking for a short extension makes zero sense. It limits our options and thereby our leverage. May wants to get the deal done quickly. Fine. But what if she fails, which given her track record is not exactly unlikely? Then she needs more time. She would have to go cap-in-hand to the EU begging for a further extension, over and over again, more pathetic each time, our national reputation an expanding stain on the floor. Or, alternately, she could ask for a longer extension and then cut it short if she got it all done quickly. There is no downside to this. Any rational actor would pursue it. But it is not politically palatable at home.

At some point we have to realise that a culture in which rational self-interest and political acceptability are mutual exclusive is not healthy. It suggests we have gone functionally insane as a country.

The immediate consequence is that we are now being treated by our negotiating partner as a kind of charity case. A long extension actually gives up their time advantage, which they used to such punishing effect during the original Article 50 window. Now we have debilitated ourselves so thoroughly, made such an obvious and profound pig's ear of the whole thing, that the EU isn't even bothering to use all its leverage. It is an acute humiliation. It is like someone beating you in a fight while checking their phone.

But imagine for a moment that May succeeds, which - who knows? - might still happen. We put a man on the moon, after all. Perhaps the great scientific accomplishments of mankind could extend to the prime minister not making a catastrophic mess of things. What happens then?

If she succeeds by May 22nd, as originally planned, we will have held an election campaign for the European parliament, selected candidates, seen them tour the country and then, at the very last minute, they'll be pulled out and the EU will be forced to initiate back-up plans for those seats.

What a stain on our national reputation for us to be treating a democratic institution with such little respect. And this, of course, is being instigated by Brexiters whose entire argument rested on the absence of democracy in Europe. That democracy always existed and now we smear and sabotage it for our own grubby self-interest without even a flicker of recognition about the hypocrisy and shamefulness it involves.

Or perhaps she will succeed in her plan by June 30th, as she specifies in the letter - the date just before new MEPs take their seats. So in this scenario candidates would have been selected, campaigns conducted, constituencies toured, elections held, and then, the moment that the men and women selected by voters to represent them were about to take their seats, they would be whisked away like it was all a dream.

That is May's plan. That is literally what she is proposing. The fact she is so bad at her job that it won't happen is irrelevant. This is her intention.

What a limitless disgrace this is as a political proposition. What a full-time, 24/7, every-day-including-Christmas moral abyss she is. The prime minister has spent the last three years insisting that holding a second referendum would destroy people's trust in the democratic process. And this is how she behaves. This is how she treats elections. As something to be dismissively engaged in and then cast aside, like a bogey you can't flick off your fingers.

She really is absolutely shameless. There is no competition anymore, there is no question: She is, quite simply, the worst British prime minister of our lifetime, and quite possibly of anyone else's.'



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 5, 2019, 11:16:31
TBF May got the gig as the Tories knew the alternatives are worse, which remains the case.

The use of the "man on the moon" metaphor is probably not the best, as many Brexiteers think it never happened...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, April 5, 2019, 22:42:57
I don't think he'll be causing the Ivor Novello judges many sleepless nights.

Well considering the origin is seemingly the playground chant to include Teachers et al and it has become it's own parodical spin as a regular <<insert opposition team players here>> anti football chant. Now chiefly used by Glasgow Celtic and Manchester United - and much likely others. I don't think I can say there ever was an attempt to turn the heads of the Ivor Novello set.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Sunday, April 7, 2019, 20:27:02
Right-wing Brexit cheerleader Peter Oborne has had a re-think:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/

Quote
Brexit has paralysed the system. It has turned Britain into a laughing stock. And it is certain to make us poorer and to lead to lower incomes and lost jobs.

We Brexiteers would be wise to acknowledge all this. It’s past time we did. We need to acknowledge, too, that that we will never be forgiven if and when Brexit goes wrong. Future generations will look back at what we did and damn us.

Quote
This is even more the case because of the new forces which have been driving history in the two years since our Brexit referendum. We are seeing the frightening collapse of the liberal post-war ‘global’ economic order and the emergence in plain sight of a fist-brandishing system of protectionist blocs.

In this new and dangerous environment, it is folly to rely on the World Trade Organization (WTO). Yet the WTO is fundamental to the Brexiteer economic model. Under attack from Donald Trump’s America and Xi Jinping’s China it is losing the ability to ensure a free market of goods and services. In the Trump and Xi world, relying on the WTO to ensure free trade is like relying on the United Nations to protect human rights: all they can offer are well-meaning but impotent resolutions. When Xi met EU leaders on his visit to Europe last week, I suddenly felt alarmed that Britain wasn’t there.

Quote
Finally – and without naming them – I must state that there are many MPs (and not a few journalists) still marching under the Brexit banner who will read this article with a sympathy and support they do not feel able to declare. They too have changed their minds.

I have, and must say so. Fair enough (you may think), but where is the ringing declaration of love for the European Union? We have seen the passionate beliefs of the Brexiteers. Where’s your own positivity? Where your matching passion for Remain?

I have none. Only a deep, gnawing worry that we are making a significant mistake: a worry that is growing by the hour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Sunday, April 7, 2019, 22:30:20
Never heard of him. I haven't changed my mind.

It took 41 years between the two UK referendums asking whether to stay in the European club not. Look at differences between that European club - 1975 to 2016. What do you think the difference will be 2016 compared to 2057 (another 41 years)? Whatever, we would not have a chance to extricate ourselves.

The vote was decisive: a majority of 1,269,501. Time to leave. Any future relationship between UK and EU can be dealt with after UK has left.

Think strategically, not selfishly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, April 8, 2019, 06:47:12
2% swing on a flawed and possibly illegal campaign isn't decisive. That's always been the point.

the rest is just guesswork. if it really goes South as you suggest it'll be obvious and far stronger leave vote will ensure this mess can't happen again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Monday, April 8, 2019, 08:19:03
It took 41 years between the two UK referendums asking whether to stay in the European club not. Look at differences between that European club - 1975 to 2016. What do you think the difference will be 2016 compared to 2057 (another 41 years)? Whatever, we would not have a chance to extricate ourselves.
I have no idea what it will look like. Jacob Rees Mogg was quite informative on this front last week though when he said that in the EU we can “veto any increase in the budget, obstruct the putative EU army and block Mr Macron’s integrationist schemes”. Are any of those what you are talking about?

(https://mobile.twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1114086264024727554)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 8, 2019, 08:28:16
I just don't get the argument that we must plough on destroying the economy obliviously just to placate a few noisy fascists in high vis jackets, I always thought the British way was to stand up to bullying liars, it seems that within certain generations this trait of Britishness has been lost, thankfully it seems to be reemerging with the younger generations today. Am I the only one to think it strange that apparently Britain won the last two world wars entirely on its own, and therefore should relish the prospect of no deal, while simultaneously it should be terrified of no brexit in case a few hundred raving racist twats kick off?

The whole argument that having the EU elections would cause some sort of crisis in the Tory party is frankly laughable, if you as a party think your whole existence is at risk by having democratic elections, I think its probably a sign of a more deep seated problem and that you should possibly not consider yourself a political party anymore, or at least one within a democratic environment.

In other news of the crap mthis whole process has become....

https://twitter.com/ProfDanielMuijs/status/1114565952711090179

Seems a pretty mundane story as I know many are little bothered of the trauma many are suffering probably even now thinking that Daniel is a scrounging immigrant, however, this gentleman is Professor Daniel Muijs, Deputy Director of Ofsted - the UK Government Office for Standards in Education, Children's Services and Skills, who has been working in UK Universities since 2000 - our system is just great isn't it  - Windrush has never really ended.

In lighter news this guy is marvellous, not a jot of sympathy for him.... https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1114954083511808006


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, April 8, 2019, 09:12:12
The WW2 rhetoric is fucking bollocks from boomers who didn't live it anyway. If you're 50 - 65 and sharing memes on facebook about "saving Europe in the war" then just fuck off. You'd have had to have been born in 1923 to be old enough to fight, so around 96 years old now.

The actual WW2 generation are as pro EU as generation x, and nearly as pro EU as millenials.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/04/05/britains-wartime-generation-are-almost-as-pro-eu-as-millennials/



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 8, 2019, 09:22:10
I just don't get the argument that we must plough on destroying the economy obliviously just to placate a few noisy fascists in high vis jackets, I always thought the British way was to stand up to bullying liars, it seems that within certain generations this trait of Britishness has been lost, thankfully it seems to be reemerging with the younger generations today. Am I the only one to think it strange that apparently Britain won the last two world wars entirely on its own, and therefore should relish the prospect of no deal, while simultaneously it should be terrified of no brexit in case a few hundred raving racist twats kick off?

The whole argument that having the EU elections would cause some sort of crisis in the Tory party is frankly laughable, if you as a party think your whole existence is at risk by having democratic elections, I think its probably a sign of a more deep seated problem and that you should possibly not consider yourself a political party anymore, or at least one within a democratic environment.

Although it's easy to throw the blame for the current mess onto opportunists like Johnson, there has been a steady drift rightwards in the general population in recent years...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/08/uk-more-willing-embrace-authoritarianism-warn-hansard-audit-political-engagement

in that sense he's just riding on to the sort of attitudes now generally prevalent in polite society, and promoted by some on the TEF.

Is there hope in the younger generations?  I'm not so sure.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Monday, April 8, 2019, 09:23:53
And lets face it, it probably wasnt very nice.  You know, the war and post war austerity, ration books and all that.  

At the same time, the same people who go on about the war and how we survived that go on about how every kid these days are Millennial snowflakes who could never survive the hardship of having their flat whites and avocados taken away.  

I believe the thinking maybe a little muddled.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, April 8, 2019, 09:51:59
Although it's easy to throw the blame for the current mess onto opportunists like Johnson, there has been a steady drift rightwards in the general population in recent years...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/08/uk-more-willing-embrace-authoritarianism-warn-hansard-audit-political-engagement

in that sense he's just riding on to the sort of attitudes now generally prevalent in polite society, and promoted by some on the TEF.

Is there hope in the younger generations?  I'm not so sure.
Oddly enough, Society was probably more cohesive during WW2 and in the aftermath when a Labour Government swept into power.  The Conservatives for their part maintained a "One Nation" Toryism.  Patriotism was naturally quite big till the rebellious 60s but even then a sort of Cool Britannia Mark 1 emerged.  The likes of Enoch Powell and Tony Benn were at the time to the taste of politicos rather than widely adopted.  

I think Thatcher changed a good deal (some good things) but her "No such thing as Society" was influential and has heralded a certain amount of, imo, extreme economic libertarianism.  I have no objection to visions and ideas.  What I would like to see is more people forming their own ideas, rather than sometimes, imo, uncritically following other peoples'.  

Young people, as ever, tend to be much better at this than some older ones.  Including me.  No need to give up on the future just yet, Reg.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, April 8, 2019, 13:28:12
The WW2 rhetoric is fucking bollocks from boomers who didn't live it anyway. If you're 50 - 65 and sharing memes on facebook about "saving Europe in the war" then just fuck off. You'd have had to have been born in 1923 to be old enough to fight, so around 96 years old now.

The actual WW2 generation are as pro EU as generation x, and nearly as pro EU as millenials.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/04/05/britains-wartime-generation-are-almost-as-pro-eu-as-millennials/


You should tap up Exiled Bob. He's pretty astute in knowing the chronology of individuals. EB would have a field day with some of those "We won the War" types  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 8, 2019, 14:35:27
Ah bless he is going mad, BTW Mark you lost the no confidence vote it would be undemocratic (apparently) to have another one....

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1115216739464306689


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, April 8, 2019, 16:09:58
with no sense of irony, Francois is arguing that if the party had known then what it knows now it would have voted differently.

One rule for the Conservative MPs and another for the public.

What a T.W.A.T.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, April 8, 2019, 18:38:06
The remainer communist are going to keep us tied to the deck of this eu ponzi clusterfuck.
Further fears over eurozone slowdown as German exports suffer biggest drop in a year.
lets get off the sinking ship before we go down with it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, April 8, 2019, 19:09:10
It was always going to be like this.  Brexit was never going to survive contact with the real world.  Not fair, really, to blame those who were warning you of this all along.

We've gone head to head with a body that's 10 times bigger than we are.  And, surprise, surprise, that body is now setting out the terms of the 'future relationship' (which, basically consists of the UK doing as its told.)  This isn't happening because of a 'Remainer elite' subverting what would otherwise have been a glorious exit on our own terms.  It's happening because the UK, on its own, is a flyweight...going up against a heavyweight in the form of the EU.  Brexit-supporting ex-ministers saw the writing on the wall ages ago, didn't fancy getting pummelled, and ran away.  The result would have been just the same if they'd stuck around.

But yep, blame the Remainers - the very people who counselled against all of this in the first place - if it makes you feel better.   ;D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, April 8, 2019, 20:21:44
One day, Brexiteers will be remembered in the same vein as Flat-Earthers and Anti-Vaxxers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, April 8, 2019, 21:43:29
One day, Brexiteers will be remembered in the same vein as Flat-Earthers and Anti-Vaxxers.
A tad overdramatic


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, April 8, 2019, 22:56:43
The remainer communist are going to keep us tied to the deck of this eu ponzi clusterfuck.
Further fears over eurozone slowdown as German exports suffer biggest drop in a year.
lets get off the sinking ship before we go down with it
Despise Brussels by all means but when it comes to administration and negotiation they are the professionals.  If the UK has been tied down, it is the triumvirate of Johnson, Davis and Fox who allowed the UK to be outmanoeuvred at the outset.  DD accepted the "phasing" and the backstop.  

Had they been as sharp and focussed as Weyland and Barnier, the initiative need not have been handed to the EU.  It was and DD and Johnson resigned.  They now blame May and Robins.  So they were weaker than the clueless May?  If so, they were not the musketeers we thought.  

They talked the talk and walked the plank.  The EU and later May and Robbins were now in control because DD had accepted the backstop.  It was all over by Chequers.  Raab, Berkeley and Cox are not to blame. It was the mouthy pub car park team that messed up.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, April 9, 2019, 02:02:08
The remainer communist are going to keep us tied to the deck of this eu ponzi clusterfuck.
Further fears over eurozone slowdown as German exports suffer biggest drop in a year.
lets get off the sinking ship before we go down with it

Now, what would be fun, is if Brexit collapses and Labour wins a snap election with Corbyn in charge.  I can only imagine the struggle you'll have to avoid an embolism.

If I remember correctly GDP growth has blossomed for the UK since joining the European Project after being a shipwreck, to use your analogy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 9, 2019, 08:27:17
It was always going to be like this.  Brexit was never going to survive contact with the real world.  Not fair, really, to blame those who were warning you of this all along.


Its like when a child hurts themselves doing something you told them not to do, and then blames you for it? but Mitch Benn puts it better....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RFANVY5Zls


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 9, 2019, 08:49:11
So the Cooper bill got Royal Ascent last evening, however it is being heavily misreported by both the media and the Labour Party, it does not prevent no deal, the only way the UK can prevent no deal is to revoke A50, otherwise we are entirely dependent on the EU agreeing to an extension of time.

Somewhat amusingly, the future of the United Kingdom is to be determined this week by, in effect, the governments of France and Ireland. For any student of history there is a wonderful beauty to this. How the mighty have fallen.

As for the idea that we can just circumvent the bits of the WA we don't like like by flouncing of shouting no deal, first thing UK would have to do is go cap-in-hand to the EU and talk trade (remember they are our biggest export market by a country mile!), money, Ireland and citizens rights, but from a weaker position and with a hostile 27 who think us liars (with pretty good evidence).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, April 9, 2019, 09:07:50
A tad overdramatic
It is. But not nearly so silly as describing the likes of Justine Greening, Phillip Hammond etc as "communist"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 9, 2019, 16:44:55
So this afternoon, in the Brexit comedy slot...

Mark Francois, no doubt trying to sound clever although it has the fingerprints of Rees-Mogg all over it, has threatened the EU with

"If you try to hold us in against our will, you will be faced with Perfidious Albion on speed"

He seems to think that "Perfidious Albion" is a compliment. He apparently doesn't seem to know "perfidious" means deceitful and untrustworthy.

So that's us. That's Britain. Deceitful. Untrustworthy. And he calls himself a patriot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, April 9, 2019, 16:55:42
So this afternoon, in the Brexit comedy slot...


He seems to think that "Perfidious Albion" is a compliment. He apparently doesn't seem to know "perfidious" means deceitful and untrustworthy.

So that's us. That's Britain. Deceitful. Untrustworthy. And he calls himself a patriot.

Didn't they used to play at Molineux before finding somewhere a bit further out of the city, to play at?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: woolster on Tuesday, April 9, 2019, 16:57:50
So this afternoon, in the Brexit comedy slot...

Mark Francois, no doubt trying to sound clever although it has the fingerprints of Rees-Mogg all over it, has threatened the EU with

"If you try to hold us in against our will, you will be faced with Perfidious Albion on speed"

He seems to think that "Perfidious Albion" is a compliment. He apparently doesn't seem to know "perfidious" means deceitful and untrustworthy.

So that's us. That's Britain.  Parlamant, Deceitful. Untrustworthy. And he calls himself a patriot. fixed for you


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 08:19:27
If I'm reading this right, May is entering discussions with Labour on the basis the withdrawal document is not up for discussion. She's also talking to the EU about an extension and they will not discuss the withdrawal agreement. This is the withdrawal agreement that has been refused by Parliament 3 times and would probably again.
Am I right or have I dreamt it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 08:31:39
If I'm reading this right, May is entering discussions with Labour on the basis the withdrawal document is not up for discussion. She's also talking to the EU about an extension and they will not discuss the withdrawal agreement. This is the withdrawal agreement that has been refused by Parliament 3 times and would probably again.
Am I right or have I dreamt it.

Pretty much, there is also the fact that the EU have said from day 1 that they will not discuss future relationships until a WA is signed, so even if we flounce away with no deal we cannot get anywhere after that until both sides sign something regarding settlement payment, future citz's rights, Irish border etc, during which time any trade agreement with our largest trading partner will be in abeyance and we will have even more (hard to believe really) burnt our bridges and made ourselves out to be dysfunctional and untrustworthy state against 27 other countries.

Been interesting to see how united the EU are in protecting Ireland's (as a member state) position, we should join!  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 09:04:39
So the conversation with Labour is extremely limited and tying their hands behind their back and our conversations with the EU are "done and dusted" until we agree the withdrawal agreement - what could go wrong.
If I was Labour I'd string May along and ensure we had to take part in the EU elections. Labour will be damaged but the Tories will be obliterated.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 09:14:29
If I'm reading this right, May is entering discussions with Labour on the basis the withdrawal document is not up for discussion. She's also talking to the EU about an extension and they will not discuss the withdrawal agreement. This is the withdrawal agreement that has been refused by Parliament 3 times and would probably again.
Am I right or have I dreamt it.

Fuck nose.  Atm the country is rudderless, certainly in my time I've never known such a disintegration.... however, it isn't war or natural disaster we're talking about, the EU is a political construct, and the decisions about our membership or otherwise will be political.

What we need to avoid at all costs is a further lurch to the right in filling the present vacuum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 09:16:25
So the conversation with Labour is extremely limited and tying their hands behind their back and our conversations with the EU are "done and dusted" until we agree the withdrawal agreement - what could go wrong.
If I was Labour I'd string May along and ensure we had to take part in the EU elections. Labour will be damaged but the Tories will be obliterated.

Labour would be bat crap crazy to sign up to anything that facilitates or delivers May's deal, Corbyn has already lost a huge amount of goodwill with younger voters who have seen through him on Brexit, whilst there is any amount of polling that shows that Labour voters and members do not want him to head down the road he is following.

Actually him and May make perfect bed fellows, both clueless, ruthless and promoted way above their level of knowledge and expertise.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 09:29:43
Labour would be bat crap crazy to sign up to anything that facilitates or delivers May's deal, Corbyn has already lost a huge amount of goodwill with younger voters who have seen through him on Brexit, whilst there is any amount of polling that shows that Labour voters and members do not want him to head down the road he is following.

Actually him and May make perfect bed fellows, both clueless, ruthless and promoted way above their level of knowledge and expertise.

We won't know how voters will view Corbyn until the next election assuming he's still party leader.... at the last one a little under 2 years ago, the Corbyn led Labour party got 40% of the vote and a 9.6% swing away from the Tories.

I daresay at the next election Labour will continue to put before the country social democratic policies, the sort popular in most Northern European democracies, for the electorate to consider.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 10:01:15
Electoral Calculus's main prediction relative to now, based on a month's worth of opinion polls is

Tories -11 seats
Labour -6
Lib Dems + 7
SNP +11
PC -1

Labour down six, all in Scotland. In England he is predicting the Tories down around 6.6% and Labour down around 6.7% relative to 2017, with Lib Dems, UKIP and the Independence group all up but too small to benefit. So hardly any English seats change hands. The Lib Dems gain a few seats like Cheadle, Cheltenham, Devon North etc from the Tories, but that's it.

Tories still largest party but even more hung Parliament than today, needing three party coalition to form a Govt (ignoring unlikely combinations like Tory/SNP). So a GE might not solve anything!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 14:55:06
I've seen 3 polls today that put Labour 8 or 9 points ahead.

It's all academic anyway because there's no manifestos out yet, hence we don't know what we're voting for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 21:14:53
I've seen 3 polls today that put Labour 8 or 9 points ahead.

It's all academic anyway because there's no manifestos out yet, hence we don't know what we're voting for.
Oh come off it. Red, blue or yellow rosettes on anything from cabbages to fucking monkeys will get candidates a seat at Westminster in lots of constituencies. Many people can’t read a manifesto, many people don’t know what a fucking manifesto is. As long as fags, booze and everything cheap is attainable then there are those who don’t give a toss who gets in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 04:17:40
Can kicking tastic. 31st October, may be able to get out earlier if we can agree a deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 06:55:49
labour can romp home at the next election if the promise to do away with student loans and bring back free uni places. Oh yeah and double voting for students should see them with a massive majority


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 08:04:53
A shame that they couldn't make the extension run until the 5th of November.

A missed opportunity by Macron et al.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 08:22:25
labour can romp home at the next election if the promise to do away with student loans and bring back free uni places. Oh yeah and double voting for students should see them with a massive majority

You lack of knowledge of whats happening in the real world is really shocking for someone who has been so successful in business.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 09:12:39
Oh come off it. Red, blue or yellow rosettes on anything from cabbages to fucking monkeys will get candidates a seat at Westminster in lots of constituencies. Many people can’t read a manifesto, many people don’t know what a fucking manifesto is. As long as fags, booze and everything cheap is attainable then there are those who don’t give a toss who gets in.
Yeah, but don't judge everyone by your own standards :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 09:49:45
Looks like the Swiss have taken this advice on board, I wonder if they can avoid widespread civil unrest following this legal decision....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47879777


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 10:11:19
Glad it’s being delayed. Get married tomorrow, and if/when Brexit did happen I’d selfishly prefer it not to be on my wedding day


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 10:20:37
Congratulations Dave. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 10:28:31
What he said! Congrats!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 13:24:21
Interesting perspective of what might happen moving forward https://www.itv.com/news/2019-04-11/new-eu-brexit-deadline-sets-up-tory-leadership-election-and-even-general-election/ 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 13:49:24
congrats Dave


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 13:55:54
Congratulations Dave, best of wishes hope the weather stays as it is now for you!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 14:14:55
Congrats, Dave, in your sovereignty pooling arrangement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 14:16:44
Congratulations Dave, best of wishes hope the weather stays as it is now for you!

Not for ginger old me I don’t

Thanks guys


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 14:23:00
So May continues to say that the best way to get us to leave the EU is to take her deal, which has already been voted down 3 times.

She really is a piece of work.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 14:46:15
Don't do it Dave.
It's not too late to back out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 17:23:14
It's just going to be another 6 months of political gesticulating, can-kicking and in-fighting, isn't it?

We'll be in exactly the same position on October 30th.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 17:29:55
the only hope is that the prospect of the embarrassment  of having to run euro MP elections focuses May's mind.

nah, you're right.

unless the Tories somehow dispose her. Then it could get uglier


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 18:00:27
A mass commemorative broomstick ascent by the doyens of the Conservative party on 31st Oct would be good.

However, the Harry Potter franchise could be dealt a blow from which it could never recover as a result.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 11, 2019, 20:25:00
the only hope is that the prospect of the embarrassment  of having to run euro MP elections focuses May's mind.
Think she's amply demonstrated she is beyond shame


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 12, 2019, 08:26:29
Be proud boys, be proud....

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1116443770638221313


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, April 12, 2019, 08:28:28
Don't do it Dave.
It's not too late to back out.

Reminds me of a halftime marriage proposal at the County Ground once.  It was accepted......and met by chants of "you don't know what you're doing!"

Good luck Dave


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, April 12, 2019, 08:35:27
Be proud boys, be proud....

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1116443770638221313

 :cry:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, April 12, 2019, 09:07:37
That's both Audrey and SRK that we have now have seen what they look like in real life.

They say never meet your heroes don't they?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 12, 2019, 09:09:12
That's both Audrey and SRK that we have now have seen what they look like in real life.

They say never meet your heroes don't they?

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, April 12, 2019, 09:21:17
Be proud boys, be proud....

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1116443770638221313

That was difficult viewing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, April 12, 2019, 09:43:28
I’ve always thought there should be a minimum IQ requirement in order to be eligible to vote.

Ok he didn’t vote but it’s reinforced my opinion


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 12, 2019, 09:53:23
 With a view to the Locals, Jeremy pointed out in the House, how Tory austerity had impacted on Swindon, more harshly, relative to somewhere like Surrey.

 Tories know though, they can get away with it.... on a local level the likes of Heenan, who didn't pay his Council Tax, Martin, "do they still allow Mongoloids to have sex with each other" and the daddy Garry "Car Park" Perkins, still get elected.

 Throw in the infamous Rikki trousering a couple of hundred thousand, courtesy of the efforts of the Tory administration, for pretend wi-fi and it makes you wonder.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 12, 2019, 10:03:58
With a view to the Locals, Jeremy pointed out in the House,

'Jeremy', is he your personal friend then, as bloody irritating as people who call John terry JT!

Reg I thought better than you to be a dyed in the wool Corbynista!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 12, 2019, 10:16:25
'Jeremy', is he your personal friend then, as bloody irritating as people who call John terry JT!

Reg I thought better than you to be a dyed in the wool Corbynista!

Jeremy is his name.... do you call Cable, Sir Vince or Sir Vincent  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 12, 2019, 10:24:06
Jeremy is his name.... do you call Cable, Sir Vince or Sir Vincent  :hmmm:

Good try fan boy, I would call him Cable as that's his name and he isn't my mate, likewise I would call Tim Farron , Farron as despite meeting him on a few occasions professionally we are not friends.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 12, 2019, 10:25:25
Anyway enough of this jousting, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Labours support for the suspected sex offender Assange, not a good look really......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 12, 2019, 10:29:16
Good try fan boy, I would call him Cable as that's his name and he isn't my mate, likewise I would call Tim Farron , Farron as despite meeting him on a few occasions professionally we are not friends.

So when you met him, you said "nice to meet you Farron", "Call me Dave" probably did the same.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, April 12, 2019, 10:31:53
Personally don't know enough about the case to have a strong opinion, however I do think the labour party should possibly make clear that they support him being extradited back to Sweden to face those charges but certainly don't agree that anybody should be extradited to Trumps America.

A political mis-step that will be made much of by the media no doubt.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 12, 2019, 10:41:56
So when you met him, you said "nice to meet you Farron", "Call me Dave" probably did the same.

Yeah course I did..... but then again that's not what I said is it as you well know.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 12, 2019, 10:45:45
Personally don't know enough about the case to have a strong opinion, however I do think the labour party should possibly make clear that they support him being extradited back to Sweden to face those charges but certainly don't agree that anybody should be extradited to Trumps America.

A political mis-step that will be made much of by the media no doubt.



Neither did I to be honest, here is a pretty good overview which also gives a steer of why the rubbish spouted by his supporters is bollocks (same bollocks as reiterated by Abbot earlier!)

https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/media/2012/09/legal-mythology-extradition-julian-assange

The kicker really is that is he doesn't want to be extradited to the US it would be legally considerably more sensible to go to Sweden rather than remain here....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 12, 2019, 11:19:26
Yeah course I did..... but then again that's not what I said is it as you well know.

I know Swindon isn't your thing.... but I did make the post as thought it interesting that Jeremy had raised the state of our local politics in Parliament.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 12, 2019, 11:39:14
Jeremy is his name.... do you call Cable, Sir Vince or Sir Vincent  :hmmm:
Ha ha, I assumed you were talking about Jeremy Rhyming Slang, thought they were odd comments from him. Personally I tend to use both forname and surname when talking about famous people, avoids this kind of confusion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 12, 2019, 11:40:38
Neither did I to be honest, here is a pretty good overview which also gives a steer of why the rubbish spouted by his supporters is bollocks (same bollocks as reiterated by Abbot earlier!)

https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/media/2012/09/legal-mythology-extradition-julian-assange

The kicker really is that is he doesn't want to be extradited to the US it would be legally considerably more sensible to go to Sweden rather than remain here....
Isn't he facing a 5 year jail sentence in the US? He could have served that and been out two years ago.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 12, 2019, 11:43:07
Ha ha, I assumed you were talking about Jeremy Rhyming Slang, thought they were odd comments from him. Personally I tend to use both forname and surname when talking about famous people, avoids this kind of confusion.

What like Jermy Hunt.... I'm sure Mr Corbyn after negotiations with the Tories calls them Customs Union no thanks :cunty:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 12, 2019, 11:44:54
What like Jermy Hunt.... I'm sure Mr Corbyn after negotiations with the Tories calls them Customs Union no thanks :cunty:
:D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 12, 2019, 12:45:28
Surprise, surprise, Boris Johnson caught lying again, Telegraph forced to publish apology and correction:

https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/boris-johnson-telegraph-column-breaches-ipso-accuracy-rules-with-no-deal-brexit-popularity-claim/

The Telegraph's defence was that Boris was just making "sweeping generalisations based on his opinions". Yes, that's what he always does. He lies and makes up shit that backs up his point of view. Rather than say, examine the evidence and present the facts as you might expect of a journalist. Or examine the facts, draw conclusions from them and then base his opinion on that as you might expect of someone who wants to be prime minister. No, all too much like hard work for Boris, much easier to just make a lazy assertion and then make shit up to justify it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 15, 2019, 08:53:07
Call them what they are, they're not populists, they're unapologetic fascists

Did Lammy read your post  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 15, 2019, 09:04:10
Did Lammy read your post  :hmmm:

Not really sure why Lammy is getting so much stick, I would imagine that every emergence of fascism was accompanied by millions of decent people being sceptical about warnings that fascism was emerging once again. And I know that, many times, such warnings have proved unfounded.
But better safe than sorry, eh?


Your buddy Tomlinson been making friends and influencing people.... https://twitter.com/JustinTomlinson/status/1117091736201912320


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, April 15, 2019, 09:32:08
Not really sure why Lammy is getting so much stick, I would imagine that every emergence of fascism was accompanied by millions of decent people being sceptical about warnings that fascism was emerging once again. And I know that, many times, such warnings have proved unfounded.
But better safe than sorry, eh?


Your buddy Tomlinson been making friends and influencing people.... https://twitter.com/JustinTomlinson/status/1117091736201912320
Lammy is just making a very cheap comment to appeal to the masses making him a perfect politician for these times. In reality, he's a bit of a cock making him a pretty normal politician for these times.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 15, 2019, 11:33:56
Lammy is just making a very cheap comment to appeal to the masses making him a perfect politician for these times. In reality, he's a bit of a cock making him a pretty normal politician for these times.

Thing is this is the way that politics works now.....

1. Jacob Rees-Mogg quotes a German AfD fascist (a party that advocates shooting refugees).
2. JRM's supporters get the idea it's OK to be a fascist (as intended).
3. After row ensues (days later), JRM "apologises", an apology taken seriously by nobody but the narrative remains.

Likewise we have UKIP candidates telling Jess Philips that they 'would't even rape her' and its just dismissed as satire by the party leader!

The polling below suggests that 29% of respondents intend to vote for far right parties in the EU elections (or 45% if one has such feelings about the present Tory party), so perhaps there actually is something to worry about and we should not bury our heads in the sand?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4A8IrAXsAEhd-Z.jpg)

Went to a gig on Friday and night and it was depressing to hear this being played again and sounding rather relevant for these times....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76wSk1j02_4


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, April 15, 2019, 13:05:24
I'm sure there is equally as stupid shit going on with the left as the right. Both as bad as each other. Extreme left, extreme right, two cheeks on the same arse. Politics is fucked.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 15, 2019, 14:33:29
I'm sure there is equally as stupid shit going on with the left as the right. Both as bad as each other. Extreme left, extreme right, two cheeks on the same arse. Politics is fucked.

The left/right divide is only useful up to a point, so for example today's Exitinction Rebellion demo in London.... what many might see as a left position has the aim of saving the planet for future generations of homo sapiens. Does that mean the those on the right, don't share that aim  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Monday, April 15, 2019, 15:08:06
Capitalism doesn't give any thought to ecology.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 15, 2019, 15:17:46
The left/right divide is only useful up to a point, so for example today's Exitinction Rebellion demo in London.... what many might see as a left position has the aim of saving the planet for future generations of homo sapiens. Does that mean the those on the right, don't share that aim  :hmmm:

There is a (I am sure entirely coincidental) relationship between the far right and a refusal to accept green issues,

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4IJNEzWwAAaoja.jpg:large)

Translated "Give us diesel over green madness", an example of European parliament electioneering by German neo-fascist AfD party.

See also Trump (D) and his opinions on global warming.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 15, 2019, 15:42:10
 At least the use of Archimboldo shows some hint of civilisation.... progress in German fascism.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 06:58:07
Good article this

https://news.sky.com/story/labour-and-the-tiggers-need-to-get-real-11695821


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 07:57:56
He's got my vote. Hopefully if we have the euro elections pro EU parties will tell us why it's a good thing rather than taking cheap shots at those who want to leave.
If there were a general election he'd also win a lot of votes


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 11:30:19
If there were a general election he'd also win a lot of votes

Unlike his previous 5 failed attempts to get elected


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 11:46:00
Unsurprisingly Farage isn't getting my vote. I think he'll do rather well in the MEP elections if it comes to it. Brexiteers and protest voters.

No clear equivalent for those less anti-EU. Change party I suppose.
-------------------
Not much choice in the local elections for our ward

Tories with Reynard
Labour
Green
UKIP

Suppose green or spoilt paper it is. Though Labour would be the tactical vote they got less than half the Tory vote last time out.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 11:55:29
Unlike his previous 5 failed attempts to get elected
I think the climate is a bit different now. Wasn't there some controversy over Tories undeclared spending which helped keep him out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 12:08:37
I think the climate is a bit different now. Wasn't there some controversy over Tories undeclared spending which helped keep him out.

One has to admire the £75k of funding he has managed to raise in a couple of days, all sources conveniently sitting below the £500 limit at which the source has to be declared....

Handy that...  :D :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jutty274 on Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 12:17:45
I have seen Farage talk to a group of military officers on leadership and management, he is very engaging and quite likeable on stage but he turned the speech around to anti Tories/Teresa May, needless to say that wasn't very well received and he won't be asked back; but before that he had them eating out of his hand.
He wasn't as good as Eddie Jones or even Clarissa Dick of the Met, but still quite interesting to watch on stage.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 12:24:00
I have seen Farage talk to a group of military officers on leadership and management, he is very engaging and quite likeable on stage but he turned the speech around to anti Tories/Teresa May, needless to say that wasn't very well received and he won't be asked back; but before that he had them eating out of his hand.
He wasn't as good as Eddie Jones or even Clarissa Dick of the Met, but still quite interesting to watch on stage.

He is charismatic and knows how to appeal to and then pray upon peoples fears, in that way he is no different from centuries of fraudsters and charlatans. Like many such historical figures, its only when the need for detail is exposed that the house of cards collapses as Brexit has shown.

This is a good example of how he works....

https://www.channel4.com/news/revealed-how-leave-eu-faked-migrant-footage


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 12:57:51
He's got my vote. Hopefully if we have the euro elections pro EU parties will tell us why it's a good thing rather than taking cheap shots at those who want to leave.
If there were a general election he'd also win a lot of votes

The impression I have is that his message resonates very strongly with his supporters, but that his supporter base is not particularly wide.  His radio show on LBC demonstrates this quite well.  Callers to the show are almost exclusively supportive of him.  (Sycophantic wouldn't be an exaggeration in most cases.)  And a significant majority of callers are middle aged/older and male.  I think this accounts for his repeated failure to get elected under the FPTP system we're shackled with in this country.  It would take a collapse of the Tory vote to get him in...which could, I suppose, happen very soon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 13:17:55
He is charismatic and knows how to appeal to and then pray upon peoples fears
It looks like both remainers and leavers use the same tactics then - the charismatic part is subjective.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 13:35:43
I suspect that the next GE will give Farage plenty of opportunity to win a seat somewhere, e.g. leave voting, possibly Labour, minimal student population where the sitting MP is perceived as having 'betrayed' the constituents.

I'm not a fan, far from it, but a Farage in Parliament might not be a bad thing in terms of  adding a bit of 'tone' to proceedings.

Anyway, the Palace of Westminster is a huge fire risk and will burn down in the not too distant.
Can Euclid Street accommodate 600+ cunts when the Westminster road show comes to town.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 13:53:07
It would take a collapse of the Tory vote to get him in...which could, I suppose, happen very soon.

I suspect that the next GE will give Farage plenty of opportunity to win a seat somewhere, e.g. leave voting, possibly Labour, minimal student population where the sitting MP is perceived as having 'betrayed' the constituents.


I think looking at the polling and reading comments from people way more intelligent on such matters than me, Farage is riding on the coattails of the 'betrayed' Tory and Labour voters, whether this would be repeated in a GE is anyone's guess. He is also being helped by the hourly Party Political Broadcasts the BBC are facilitating, whilst the infighting on the remain side is in danger of just splitting their vote down to nothing!

Edit - Dunt says it better than me and I know Chalkies loves a bit of Dunt! https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/04/17/remainers-are-making-a-pig-s-ear-of-the-european-elections

Listening to Carole Cadwalladr's Ted talk earlier, I am inclined to agree that democracy is well and truly buggered until they sort the electronic campaigning issues out, I note that FullFact (who even Brexiteers like to quote as unbiased) are saying the same thing which says a lot really.  



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 17:48:06
Farage is the poster child of the negatives the first past the past system brings us.  He stands very little chance of getting a seat in Parliament, or causing any great influence on that system through a party.  That creates a sense of disenfranchisement for people who simply see no way of having their voices heard - even if they (in my opinion) have bad ideas and policy.  That perpetuates the space within which someone like Farage can operate - make it seem like "they" are out to get you and "they" will not let you in.  He doesn't even need to be FOR anything, he can exist by simply being against the status quo.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 17:59:08
The Beeb are rather faced that 69% of panellists on UKExit-themed editions of Question Time have identified themselves as wishing the UK to stay in the EU.

Not very representative. The response was that panellists are not chosen using mathematics alone!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 18:07:12
The Beeb are rather faced that 69% of panellists on UKExit-themed editions of Question Time have identified themselves as wishing the UK to stay in the EU.

Not very representative. The response was that panellists are not chosen using mathematics alone!
The beeb stand to lose millions of eu funding if we leave. only selfish greed on their part.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 19:39:16
The Beeb are rather faced that 69% of panellists on UKExit-themed editions of Question Time have identified themselves as wishing the UK to stay in the EU.

Not very representative. The response was that panellists are not chosen using mathematics alone!

I don't see what the problem would be with that?  The vote was probably along similar lines among the % of the population you would likely find "decision maker" type roles in the economy and Politics, so that is fair.  Also, the point of the programme is to press those people on their thought process, is it not?  So it serves well - provided the questions being asked are representative of "the people".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 18, 2019, 08:46:03
The Beeb are rather faced that 69% of panellists on UKExit-themed editions of Question Time have identified themselves as wishing the UK to stay in the EU.

Not very representative. The response was that panellists are not chosen using mathematics alone!

I assume you are setting aside the disparity between pro EU MEP's appearing (none) and anti-EU MEP's (loads of times although that includes Farage's monthly slot!)

In addition these  anguished cries of conspiracy are rather offset by the BBC suppressing stories about nefarious activities by the leave campaign though....

In case you missed it....

Robbie Gibb was head of BBC Westminster & is currently head of communication in No10. This is how Aaron Banks talked about him after the BBC killed the report into Leave.EU wrongdoing: "Robbie is being quite helpful and says he’s trying to hose it down.”

See https://www.channel4.com/news/revealed-brexit-group-covered-up-its-targeting-of-right-wing-extremists


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 18, 2019, 08:48:30
The beeb stand to lose millions of eu funding if we leave. only selfish greed on their part.

I think they will manage if they lose the 7% of funding, which actually doesn't go to the BBC but to an independent charity the BBC runs for international matters https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36149789

Perhaps they could go into selling tin foil, with the conspiracy theories engulfing this thread I am sure hat production demands could meet the shortfall.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 18, 2019, 09:05:17
Better get used to that backstop folks..... https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1118545688999100417


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 18, 2019, 09:35:51
Better get used to that backstop folks..... https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1118545688999100417

Incredible.  It's almost as if all the rhetoric about 'taking back control' was completely undeliverable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, April 18, 2019, 10:27:26
Better get used to that backstop folks..... https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1118545688999100417

At least a decade, when ran through the standard Govetnment project deviation, means at least 2 decades and twice the cost.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, April 18, 2019, 10:43:35
I know we don't believe polls any more but fuck me if the Torys aren't toast for the forseeable.

https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1118643463380185088


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 18, 2019, 11:31:23
I know we don't believe polls any more but fuck me if the Torys aren't toast for the forseeable.

https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1118643463380185088

Looking less clear cut here, lets b honest in the present climate no one has a clue....

https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1118836554330460160


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, April 18, 2019, 17:15:33
Not as clear cut but what both your link and Jayo's show, quite clearly, is that the "Right" are splitting in opinion/their vote. One of the things any right leaning party prides itself on is so called "togetherness". As comments in those threads say; it's quite unheard of.

The change in politics is coming and what it may look like, who knows?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, April 18, 2019, 18:38:46
Yougov seem to be producing a high number of outliers recently, not convinced of their methodology at all. Survation are far more reliable imo


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, April 18, 2019, 19:36:17
Yougov have been shite for a while.  Some times as much as 6pc from the average position but they seem to be taken more seriously than the others.  Knock out the outliers either way and you get something that might resemble the truth.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Friday, April 19, 2019, 01:26:29
The pollsters release different polls in public to the more detailed efforts they get from paid investors. It's why a lot of the disaster capitilist brexit group shorted the pound a few days before the referendum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Friday, April 19, 2019, 06:32:05
I don't see what the problem would be with that?  The vote was probably along similar lines among the % of the population you would likely find "decision maker" type roles in the economy and Politics, so that is fair.  Also, the point of the programme is to press those people on their thought process, is it not?  So it serves well - provided the questions being asked are representative of "the people".

So some votes should be worth more than others?!

What value should be given to the opinion of economic migrants to the United States of America? $$$$$$$$


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Friday, April 19, 2019, 06:34:22
I assume you are setting aside the disparity between pro EU MEP's appearing (none) and anti-EU MEP's (loads of times although that includes Farage's monthly slot!
The stats I quoted were the Beeb's own.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, April 19, 2019, 11:31:44
This should be compulsory!

https://news.sky.com/story/indian-man-cuts-off-his-own-finger-in-anger-after-voting-for-wrong-party-11697940


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, April 19, 2019, 11:34:10
This should be compulsory!

https://news.sky.com/story/indian-man-cuts-off-his-own-finger-in-anger-after-voting-for-wrong-party-11697940

Some should cut off more than that to help stop them from breeding.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, April 19, 2019, 13:15:24
I had a coffee this morning outside the offices of KKE - The Communist Party of Greece.

It was surprisingly busy!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, April 19, 2019, 13:34:54
I had a coffee this morning outside the offices of KKE - The Communist Party of Greece.

It was surprisingly busy!

If you can't beat them, then join 'em.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, April 19, 2019, 15:03:28
So some votes should be worth more than others?!

What value should be given to the opinion of economic migrants to the United States of America? $$$$$$$$

Eh?  I m saying the people asking the question should be representative of the opinions of the nation.  The panel is there to provide "expert" responses - or be shown up to have no reasonable response and the people they select from are likely more remain then Leave.  If they don't allow tough question of them (I have no idea) then that is a different matter.

USA - I indeed have no right to an opinion.  It is against the law for me to vote here.  It's not my country so that seems fair enough to me, at least until I make a permanent commitment, at which point I am allowed to vote (Permanent Residency or Citizenship).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Sunday, April 21, 2019, 07:24:01
Relentless campaigning:

Yurrup, yurrup, yurrup

OUT, OUT, OUT!!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 1, 2019, 17:57:30
 Williamson sacked as Minister of Defence  :bye:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, May 2, 2019, 09:02:57
Williamson sacked as Minister of Defence  :bye:
I'd always assumed that the only reason Grayling kept his job was because May was shit scared of losing any more ministers, given the large numbers who've resigned. But it would seem not. Which begs the question, just how shit (as opposed to disloyal) do you have to be to be sacked by May?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 2, 2019, 09:04:20
I'd always assumed that the only reason Grayling kept his job was because May was shit scared of losing any more ministers, given the large numbers who've resigned. But it would seem not. Which begs the question, just how shit (as opposed to disloyal) do you have to be to be sacked by May?

I don't think its how shite necessarily, I suspect more how much does May need to distract from the truth would be a truer description.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, May 2, 2019, 09:10:20
And a reminder to all TEFers (although I'd hope none would be needed) that it's local elections today - get out and have your say on which group of incompetents gets to run the town even further into the ground for the next few years ....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, May 2, 2019, 09:37:45
And a reminder to all TEFers (although I'd hope none would be needed) that it's local elections today - get out and have your say on which group of incompetents gets to run the town even further into the ground for the next few years ....

You highlight the problem very succinctly. Thinking of going green as a protest vote!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 2, 2019, 09:52:43
You highlight the problem very succinctly. Thinking of going green as a protest vote!


What like the Hulk....?

Sadly we don't get the option up here this year, although we do get Tommeh Waxy-Lemon on the EU elections paper!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 2, 2019, 10:10:54
And a reminder to all TEFers (although I'd hope none would be needed) that it's local elections today - get out and have your say on which group of incompetents gets to run the town even further into the ground for the next few years ....

I've never known such a low key local election... I guess it's to be expected.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, May 2, 2019, 10:29:55
Can’t find my polling card, assume I can rock up with other ID and I’ll be ok?

Got a decent new local independent party I’m going to vote for, can’t vote for any of the established parties right now


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 2, 2019, 10:30:20
I've never known such a low key local election... I guess it's to be expected.

I suppsoe so, there is so little choice really...

One party pursuing policies that they know fucks up much of the economy and causes social division;
One party dogmatically facilitating same whilst claiming not to;
One party that no one will vote for because of actions 9 years ago by a leader who is no longer in the party who have a new leader who never says anything and everyone knows is retiring soon;
Some unashamed racists;
Some tree huggers that no one takes seriously;

Politics in this country in a busted flush and I have no idea what if anything can revitalise it.

Thankfully I don't have to make a decision this year apart from the Euro ones.... Which polling seems to suggest will mainly see a big shift from the racists to the slightly less obviously racists so I suppose that's a start...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Private Fraser on Thursday, May 2, 2019, 10:54:11
I only got leafleted/doorstepped by the red lot and the blue lot for the one Borough Council seat in my ward.  But, when I got to the polling station, I found 3 other candidates (the purple lot, the yellow lot and the green lot) on the ballot paper who I hadn't heard of/from. If they can't be arsed, why should I or anyone else be?

For the four Parish Council seats, the only choice was red or blue!

And we've still got the Euro election to look forward to.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 2, 2019, 10:56:08
This is quite interesting to read, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-48122911

So the report suggests that to get to nearly zero emissions by 2050 is possible and is estimated to reduce GDP by c. 1-2%, to put that in context a report in April estimated that Brexit has cost the UK economy 2.4% of its GDP, based on a comparison with its growth before the 2016 referendum?

Also the report seems to suggest that the actions of Miss Thunberg and others have made some difference, despite the disdain of many?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, May 2, 2019, 10:59:56

Also the report seems to suggest that the actions of Miss Thunberg and others have made some difference, despite the disdain of many?

Fair play to them, and may they continue to ensure promises are kept.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 2, 2019, 11:13:51
This is quite interesting to read, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-48122911

So the report suggests that to get to nearly zero emissions by 2050 is possible and is estimated to reduce GDP by c. 1-2%, to put that in context a report in April estimated that Brexit has cost the UK economy 2.4% of its GDP, based on a comparison with its growth before the 2016 referendum?

Also the report seems to suggest that the actions of Miss Thunberg and others have made some difference, despite the disdain of many?

The problem is that although Extinction Rebellion etc has raised awareness of the problems facing the planet, and people are prepared to accept "something needs to be done"  they assume that something will be done for them, rather than by them.

This closed mind approach is exacerbated by the oft heard argument, Extinction Rebellion should go and protest in China and see how they'll get on there.... I'll carry on driving my 2 cars thank you very much.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, May 2, 2019, 11:23:09
Think globally act locally!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Friday, May 3, 2019, 05:52:31
It was not the best night for Reg’s mob was it  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 3, 2019, 06:40:42
the  Tory council majority increases after Labour losses PENHILL to the Cons.

wtf.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, May 3, 2019, 07:16:18
Two party politics is dead. The future of UK parliaments will be on a European scale of mish mash fringe parties and nut jobs.

Surely we have a comedian who could ruffle a few feathers like that Italian(?) fella


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Friday, May 3, 2019, 07:20:34
the  Tory council majority increases after Labour losses PENHILL to the Cons.

wtf.

Penhill and Stratton. One ward

Low turnouts all over


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, May 3, 2019, 08:06:50
the  Tory council majority increases after Labour losses PENHILL to the Cons.

wtf.

Existing Labour councillor stood as an independent. This split the vote between her and the Labour candidate allowing the Tory to win.

I'm more dumfounded that people will vote for people like Nick Martin and Dale Heenan considering their list of shame. This is regardless of the party they represent. As individuals they are both complete arseholes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 3, 2019, 08:16:17
It was not the best night for Reg’s mob was it  :hmmm:

Certainly not one of the better nights, but not wholly unexpected. When the full results are in, will be interesting to see if anything much can be deduced from them  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 3, 2019, 08:24:09
Jess Phillips is right.  Corbyn/McDonnell still trying to face both ways on Brexit is killing Labour.  For the main opposition party to perform as poorly as that 9 years after last leaving office should really set the alarm bells ringing.

Time to get off the fence.  (They won't get off the fence.)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 3, 2019, 08:33:38
Jess Phillips is right.  Corbyn/McDonnell still trying to face both ways on Brexit is killing Labour.  For the main opposition party to perform as poorly as that 9 years after last leaving office should really set the alarm bells ringing.

Time to get off the fence.  (They won't get off the fence.)

The peculiar thing is that they have lost seats badly in hard leave places like Sunderland and Hartlepool, which suggests that the fence sitting is not as necessary as magic grandpa and his pals would like the faithful to think.

No doubt as in the election of 2017 it will be spun as a win, I see that despite the only parties making big gains are the Greens and Lib Dems (who might have something in common), the BBC continue to report that the Tory losses are in some way related to them not getting on with Brexit or being hard enough.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 3, 2019, 08:43:00
The peculiar thing is that they have lost seats badly in hard leave places like Sunderland and Hartlepool, which suggests that the fence sitting is not as necessary as magic grandpa and his pals would like the faithful to think.

No doubt as in the election of 2017 it will be spun as a win, I see that despite the only parties making big gains are the Greens and Lib Dems (who might have something in common), the BBC continue to report that the Tory losses are in some way related to them not getting on with Brexit or being hard enough.....

Nicola Sturgeon put it very well (and with characteristic pith):

If the message Labour takes from English local elections is that they should now be the facilitator of a Tory Brexit, I suspect their troubles will just be beginning.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, May 3, 2019, 08:49:20
It's a tad depressing that the Tories have increased their majority in Swindon.

After 15 years it's difficult to recall any positive efforts that have been made to move the town forward?
"Fixing" a few roundabouts maybe. The place, sadly, just has an air of stagnation.

I wonder how the people vote, who always moan about the town centre, vowing to never set foot there and do their shopping elsewhere.  :hmmm:

Not saying that Labour would do any better, but it's just the seeming acceptance (by the local electorate) of the setting of very low standards that have consistently failed to be met that is baffling.

Maybe there is a case for taking local government out of the party political arena and make the whole thing independent?





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 3, 2019, 08:51:13
Nicola Sturgeon put it very well (and with characteristic pith):

If the message Labour takes from English local elections is that they should now be the facilitator of a Tory Brexit, I suspect their troubles will just be beginning.

Labour are losing the plot, yet the faithful are so blind nobody will do anything about it as magic grandpa still shits gold dust...

The Labour Leader of Sunderland Council was on the BBC blaming labour remain MPs for the losses, despite the fact that the vast majority of the Cllrs he’s lost are to the Lib Dems and Greens....

Whilst Barry Gardiner again on the BBC when referring to Brexit talks tells Tory James Cleverly "We are in there trying to bail you guys out." So that's the Lib Dems leaflets for the next few elections sorted!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 3, 2019, 08:53:15
Jess Phillips is right.  Corbyn/McDonnell still trying to face both ways on Brexit is killing Labour.  For the main opposition party to perform as poorly as that 9 years after last leaving office should really set the alarm bells ringing.

Time to get off the fence.  (They won't get off the fence.)

The problem with Brexit is there can be no winners, (apart from disaster capitalists) only losers. So it's about trying to minimise your loses.

So for example the call for a confirmatory ref.... kind of assumes you've got something to confirm, which there isn't.  It's chief advocates see it as way of overturning the June 23rd decision, but if it was lost, it would be a disaster for the country, as well as the party.  It would be a fuck up on a scale comparable to Cameron.

Back in the start of this thread about 5 years ago in response to I think Hertab's question what was the most important thing for the forthcoming election, I posited climate change. 

With that in mind it is interesting that Parliament has in a cross party consensus backed Corbyn, declared a national climate change emergency. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 3, 2019, 08:55:29
Not saying that Labour would do any better, but it's just the seeming acceptance (by the local electorate) of the setting of very low standards that have consistently failed to be met that is baffling.
Wellens' quote on the decline of the club "The club is riddled with a cancer, it is a cancer for acceptance of mediocracy and complacency" could well be applied to the whole town. We just seem to accept being quite shit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Friday, May 3, 2019, 09:00:44
Wellens' quote on the decline of the club "The club is riddled with a cancer, it is a cancer for acceptance of mediocracy and complacency" could well be applied to the whole town. We just seem to accept being quite shit
Ever since the mid 80s when Swindon became the butt of many jokes about its shitness there seems to be an acceptance that it is indeed fact, almost without questioning that.

Many people when asked where they come from are almost apologetic that they come from the shitness of Swindon. It is widely accepted and it shouldn't be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 3, 2019, 09:02:18
So why is that?  Serious question.  The town I remember growing up in in the 1980s was innovative and seemed to be looking forward with confidence.  A lot of it may have been bluster ('fastest growing town in Europe' etc.), but Swindon used to have a swagger.  And now it's gone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Friday, May 3, 2019, 09:05:19
So why is that?  Serious question.  The town I remember growing up in in the 1980s was innovative and seemed to be looking forward with confidence.  A lot of it may have been bluster ('fastest growing town in Europe' etc.), but Swindon used to have a swagger.  And now it's gone.
No idea exactly why that is but it never used to be like it until say the mid to late 80s when the town was in its prime for expansion.

Having lived in several places I can definately say there are many many places much more shit than Swindon.

Not sure which "comedian" originated the "Swindon is shit" but it sort of took off quickly in the mainstream and its never gone away.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 3, 2019, 09:11:15
So why is that?  Serious question.  The town I remember growing up in in the 1980s was innovative and seemed to be looking forward with confidence.  A lot of it may have been bluster ('fastest growing town in Europe' etc.), but Swindon used to have a swagger.  And now it's gone.

I have not set foot in Swindon for probably 15+ years. However my old man who is Swindon born and bred and lives near Witney now (after a stint in France) always states its become a dump and never ever goes near the place unless to a) go the Steam and he used to work in the works or b) visit my sisters grave in Purton.

However the recurring joke when I was a kid and we used to visit to see my nan in Pinehurst or go to the dentist in Old Town was as we drove into Swindon along the A361 was that each time we visited a new roundabout had been built with out of town development and as a planer I think that's the main problem, the centre seems to have been ignored in favour of out of town expansion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 3, 2019, 09:16:16
Maybe there is a case for taking local government out of the party political arena and make the whole thing independent?

Local government has been reduced to a husk of its former status, whereby the likes of David Murray John as Town Clerk, had serious autonomy.

The powers over the good bits were returned to central government, and councils left with the shitty bits. 

The admin of the shitty bits was then privatised, so we have the privilege of paying for it through the exorbitant Council Tax.

There's certainly a case that the SBC type tier could be removed and most of the shitty bits funded by central government, with then something like parishes at local level, with a small local income tax, or similar paying for things like flower beds and litter picking.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 3, 2019, 09:28:08
I have not set foot in Swindon for probably 15+ years. However my old man who is Swindon born and bred and lives near Witney now (after a stint in France) always states its become a dump and never ever goes near the place unless to a) go the Steam and he used to work in the works or b) visit my sisters grave in Purton.

However the recurring joke when I was a kid and we used to visit to see my nan in Pinehurst or go to the dentist in Old Town was as we drove into Swindon along the A361 was that each time we visited a new roundabout had been built with out of town development and as a planer I think that's the main problem, the centre seems to have been ignored in favour of out of town expansion.

The hollow doughnut theory has been doing the rounds for decades.  Plenty going on around the edges, but nothing in the middle.  Swindon seemed to be on the up in the 1980s, but then ground to a halt just as places like Reading (in the 1990s) then pushed on.  While Reading built the Oracle to complement the existing Victorian centre, built the Madejski and also built a major new road linking both to the motorway - and all within the space of about 5 yrs - Swindon did nothing.  There was no excuse for it.

Bizarrely, the town continues to expand today as fast as it ever did in the 1980s, but the centre remains a hell hole.  Those of us who live out of town still notice the new roundabouts & housing estates that you mention...the latest being the new estate of houses that has now spread right round Coate Water and butts up next to the Swindon East motorway junction.  And there are houses going up ever further to the north of town, some now a full 6 miles from the town centre.  At what point does it become viable to build something worthwhile in the centre of Swindon to knit the whole place back together?  It doesn't make any sense.

I used to think that a well-thought out redevelopment of the County Ground could spur a wider regeneration in central Swindon, but gave up on that ages ago.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 3, 2019, 09:44:30
I moved here in the late 90s, the decline is probably my fault. Most things are.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 3, 2019, 09:51:37
It doesn't make any sense.

 It sort of makes perfect sense... insofar Swindon is often seen as an indicator of how things are moving. Town/City centres are organic sort of places.  Swindon being 2 separate Boroughs until 1900 had 2 centres... both had grown to meet the needs of the respective populations.

 These places are no longer needed by the population for most of their needs... therefore they wither and close. 

The same is happening in many places in the country.... the Town Centre as presently understood, will return to its original use... housing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 3, 2019, 10:47:09
It sort of makes perfect sense... insofar Swindon is often seen as an indicator of how things are moving. Town/City centres are organic sort of places.  Swindon being 2 separate Boroughs until 1900 had 2 centres... both had grown to meet the needs of the respective populations.

 These places are no longer needed by the population for most of their needs... therefore they wither and close. 

The same is happening in many places in the country.... the Town Centre as presently understood, will return to its original use... housing.

Cannot see that happening, a friend of mine acts as planning agent for a company that owns a lot of the retail in the town centre and he has found Swindon Council nigh impossible to deal with, plus whilst there has been a move to make it comparatively easy to move from retail to residential via permitted development if your lot get in they plan to abolish PD so it will get even harder to regenerate dying town centres.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 3, 2019, 11:05:51
Cannot see that happening, a friend of mine acts as planning agent for a company that owns a lot of the retail in the town centre and he has found Swindon Council nigh impossible to deal with, plus whilst there has been a move to make it comparatively easy to move from retail to residential via permitted development if your lot get in they plan to abolish PD so it will get even harder to regenerate dying town centres.

It's already happening.. many former offices, now redundant, are being converted to flats. However town centre living isn't very appealing if the advantages of proximity entertainments, facilities etc disappear.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 3, 2019, 11:10:37
It's already happening.. many former offices, now redundant, are being converted to flats. However town centre living isn't very appealing if the advantages of proximity entertainments, facilities etc disappear.

Not for much longer as Labour are planning to get rid of the PD potential when  :no: they get elected.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 3, 2019, 11:18:28
Not for much longer as Labour are planning to get rid of the PD potential when  :no: they get elected.

We'll need to see on that... future Labour policy is likely to be driven by the climate change emergency and the New Green Deal, and within that framework, reusing buildings trying to make them as energy efficient as possible and situated in city/town centres, to reduce the reliance on the car makes sense.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, May 3, 2019, 11:49:08
Swindon already has a pretty good Town Centre replacement in the Railway Village/Outlet combo, and assuming they actually build the Snow thingy then I'd just move all the signs and point in that direction.  The old Town Centre should be pushed towards Office friendly development and then support that with Restaurant/Cafe's etc.  That would require knocking down buildings and starting again to make them appealing to companies to use vs out of town offerings (including adding sufficient parking).  That would drive residential developments as well.  Just accept it is gone as it was, and the need for something like that doesn't exist anymore - so get developing the things people do need and want.  The concept of knocking down the Wyvern and replacing it fits in well, you have a little "cultural section" with supporting food establishments and move it more afternoon/evening in usage.

I'd maybe focus around Rodbourne and try and convert some of that area to more pedestrian to link in with the Outlet and encourage a few more up scale dining options and bars around the area.  I know the locals will not accept that though.  Sort of like a new Old Town.  Talking of which, that area is looking quite good these days.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, May 3, 2019, 11:58:05
The SBC actually have an opportunity in that regard. Other nearby towns and cities have already made fairly recent upgrades and spent millions on retail style town centres, something that is now becoming outdated. With Swindon lagging behind, it actually means they have been a little lucky in that they get to plan for a 'new' town centre with more focus on entertainment, food, drink, arts, community etc.

But will they take that opportunity, or will we still be having this same discussion in 10, 15, 20 years time?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 3, 2019, 12:37:32
The SBC actually have an opportunity in that regard. Other nearby towns and cities have already made fairly recent upgrades and spent millions on retail style town centres, something that is now becoming outdated. With Swindon lagging behind, it actually means they have been a little lucky in that they get to plan for a 'new' town centre with more focus on entertainment, food, drink, arts, community etc.

But will they take that opportunity, or will we still be having this same discussion in 10, 15, 20 years time?
Given that successive councils of all political makeups have missed every other opportunity over the past 20 years, I think we can answer that with some confidence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 3, 2019, 13:19:17
We'll need to see on that... future Labour policy is likely to be driven by the climate change emergency and the New Green Deal, and within that framework, reusing buildings trying to make them as energy efficient as possible and situated in city/town centres, to reduce the reliance on the car makes sense.

It makes sense to you and I, but its not what Labour politicians are telling the planning sector!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, May 3, 2019, 16:29:24
Conservative losses at over 1000 now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 3, 2019, 16:37:38
Conservative losses at over 1000 now.

Yeah, but they won in Penhill.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, May 3, 2019, 16:55:32
One of the Councils was described as having moved from no overall control to being controlled by Independents.  Isn't the point of being an Independent that you are not aligned to anyone else?  So essentially it's even more under no overall control!

I see UKIP fell apart - some positive news for the country.

Also good to see the two main parties in a mess, and also that the Libs still don't really know what they are.  Are they becoming a one policy party to counter Farage?  The hope must be that the country figures out it needs a different type of politics - it might be messy getting there though, especially if the next election throws out a result where not even two parties can club together to get control.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, May 3, 2019, 16:59:38
Yeah, but they won in Penhill.....

We'll definitely have to have totally equal coverage saying that its incredibly bad for Labour as well as the Tories.

I know it is bad, I know we should be gaining not losing, but it is 1 tenth of the tory losses.  Im sure the BBC news will try to make it equivalent.
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, May 3, 2019, 18:04:45
Labour gained from Tories in my constituency - Amber Valley. For only the second time this side of 2000. Labour had, however held that seat from 1997 until the fallout of Blair. Judy Mallaber (who was part of his cabinet) was a very good MP, who actually asked questions and raised issues concerning her constituents, in parliament. The "Red Fox" as she was known in these parts, mostly due to her auburn hair and resolute campaigning against fox hunting. It is nice to see AV go "red" again but it is a totally different Labour now from 15-20 years ago.

The Greens gained a first here obtaining a councillor at the expense of a long held Tory seat. People are fed up and those that did vote (Duffield Ward where the Greens won had a 55% turn out). are showing so. Especially on the Tory vote. If we look across the board, Labour look to lose a little but will only be about 50 councillors down. The concern here is that they won't have gained from the Tories overall. That quite clearly has gone to the Lib Dems and a bunch of Indes. Good to see the UKIP "resurrection" fail imo.

The Conservatives though - well we know media will make it look like a bad day for Labour but after 241/248 declared councils, they are 1270 councillors down and have lost 42 councils. Lib Dem currently sit on 666 councillors gained...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, May 3, 2019, 19:50:55
Bad for Labour I think, but good for the Country I hope.  Two party politics always makes things devolve to black and white decisions - don;t agree with the other side because you are not allowed to.  Nothing really changes as we don't work together and you end up in situations where people get ignored completely as a result.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 3, 2019, 20:13:04
We'll definitely have to have totally equal coverage saying that its incredibly bad for Labour as well as the Tories.

I know it is bad, I know we should be gaining not losing, but it is 1 tenth of the tory losses.  Im sure the BBC news will try to make it equivalent.
Oh, come on. Labour have done very badly. They're the opposition (apparently) to the most inept government in living memory and beyond, they should be hoovering up seats like a whale with plankton. The fact that instead they've also managed to lose seats is a testament to how shit people think they are as well. There is no trust in either of the two main parties, and the fact that I've heard MPs from both parties all day trying to spin their own results in terms of the other ("Labour didn't do well either", "Not as good as we'd hoped but a distaster for the Tories" shows that they still don't get it. They'll both get fucking battered by the electorate and a good thing too. As long as it doesn't let the Toytown fascist, wife beater, dealer, and all round petty criminal and hooligan Robinson/Yaxley-Lennon in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, May 3, 2019, 20:26:42
Yes.  Labour have done very badly. 

Hence I used the sentence 'I know its bad, I know we should be gaining not losing'. 





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 3, 2019, 20:53:31
Yes.  Labour have done very badly. 

Hence I used the sentence 'I know its bad, I know we should be gaining not losing'. 
I was reacting to the idea that the BBC et al would try to (falsely I thought you implied) make out the results were equally as bad. They pretty much are, given where the two parties are. Both had a disastrous night. The Tories' absolute numbers are worse, but that's a fucking terrible performance if Labour have any pretence of forming a government at any point in the near future. The complacency of Labour officials in not seeing this as a massive slap in the face from the electorate is breathtaking.

And if you want to look at the numbers, Labour and Tories are equal in share of the vote, 28% each. To be level pegging with the most shambolic government in living memory on any level is an absolute disaster. So I hope the BBC and all the other media outlets do call this out as being just as bad for Labour as it is the Tories because it is. It's beyond terrible. The Lib Dems and Greens have been the beneficiaries in the locals but Farage will be wanking himself dry about how that kind of performance from the two main parties is going to translate in the Euros


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, May 3, 2019, 21:48:46
The Lib Dems and Greens have been the beneficiaries in the locals but Farage will be wanking himself dry about how that kind of performance from the two main parties is going to translate in the Euros

Thanks. You gave me a vision of that rubbery lipped cunt ejaculating. Not a vision I want anyone to have  :no:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, May 4, 2019, 03:18:54
Labour's biggest problem isn't their stance on Brexit, it's their leader. When Corbyn won the leadership it was like a breath of fresh air, but that has unfortunately turned out to be a slight waft which has now disappeared. You only have to look on social media to see how Corbyn is viewed by many (views which have, to a large part, been fed by Right wing media bias).
The Tories must love having an opposition that is led by someone who a large number of people find unelectable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, May 10, 2019, 16:43:02
https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/17627227.what-went-wrong-with-the-highworth-town-council-vote-and-where-do-we-go-from-here/

Deep state corruption in highworth as Tory party awarded 10x more votes than they earned


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, May 16, 2019, 18:04:56
Interesting article

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/majority-of-europeans-expect-end-of-eu-within-20-years/ar-AABpN0H?ocid=spartandhp


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, May 16, 2019, 18:26:12
Interesting article

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/majority-of-europeans-expect-end-of-eu-within-20-years/ar-AABpN0H?ocid=spartandhp

Lets hope its sooner than that for the UK. Otherwise being the age I am, I might never know what it feels to be a free English man before my days are over. It was great as a young man, not being a eu slave but then we werelied to about the ec. Most young people don't undestand freedom never having experienced it. They can't wait another 20 years, they need it now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 16, 2019, 18:53:07
Most young people don't undestand freedom never having experienced it. They can't wait another 20 years, they need it now.

A lot of young people are more concerned that the top scientific prognosis on climate change is that we've 12 years to do something about reversing present warming trends before it becomes irreversible.... I assume as someone who obviously cares about the world our young people are going to inherit, "you're doing your bit"  rather than following the Faragist line, well we only produce 2% of CO2 emissions, so no point in bothering.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, May 16, 2019, 21:32:41
A lot of young people are more concerned that the top scientific prognosis on climate change is that we've 12 years to do something about reversing present warming trends before it becomes irreversible.... I assume as someone who obviously cares about the world our young people are going to inherit, "you're doing your bit"  rather than following the Faragist line, well we only produce 2% of CO2 emissions, so no point in bothering.

A lot of young people are more concerned that the top scientific prognosis on climate change is that we've 12 years to do something about reversing present warming trends before it becomes irreversible.... are you 100% sure? If so quantify ‘a lot’ please after all a lot is rather ambiguous.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 17, 2019, 06:59:32
A lot of young people are more concerned that the top scientific prognosis on climate change is that we've 12 years to do something about reversing present warming trends before it becomes irreversible.... are you 100% sure? If so quantify ‘a lot’ please after all a lot is rather ambiguous.

1.4 million for the school strikes globally back in early April....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 17, 2019, 07:39:22
With the Tory leadership race underway, my concern is that the party membership concludes that only a figure like Rees-Mogg or Johnson would have the profile to tease your average Daily Mail/Daily Express reader back from their current crush on the Brexit party.  Farage succeeded in getting the Tories to move to the right in 2016, and I would not be at all surprised if he does it again now.

The new leader, whoever they are, will no doubt spout the usual bollocks about 'bringing the country together'.  But I suspect that any new leader elected by Tory members/MPs is inevitably going to be a 'Marmite' figure across the country as a whole.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, May 17, 2019, 08:00:16
I'd be more interested in a Labour leadership contest. Virtually any Tory leader will beat Corbyn. If Labour were under a more centrist leadership and front bench they'd be in power. They need to purge momentum and the front bench. Corbyn is the Tories greatest strength.
Aren't all politicians marmite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 17, 2019, 08:01:18
With the Tory leadership race underway, my concern is that the party membership concludes that only a figure like Rees-Mogg or Johnson would have the profile to tease your average Daily Mail/Daily Express reader back from their current crush on the Brexit party.  Farage succeeded in getting the Tories to move to the right in 2016, and I would not be at all surprised if he does it again now.

The new leader, whoever they are, will no doubt spout the usual bollocks about 'bringing the country together'.  But I suspect that any new leader elected by Tory members/MPs is inevitably going to be a 'Marmite' figure across the country as a whole.

If it's anything like the last one, then it won't get as far as the membership... my guess is that it will be an outsider, someone without baggage, probably not a woman this time... if a betting man my euro would be on Matt Hancock.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 17, 2019, 08:15:23
I'd be more interested in a Labour leadership contest. Virtually any Tory leader will beat Corbyn. If Labour were under a more centrist leadership and front bench they'd be in power. They need to purge momentum and the front bench. Corbyn is the Tories greatest strength.
Aren't all politicians marmite.

We had one relatively recently..... the centrist candidate Owen Smith, was beaten. Corbyn then achieved a 9% swing to Labour in 2017.  Not enough to form a government, but enough to stall the worst excesses of the Tory administration.  So we start to see little victories, like the Probabtion Service being re-nationalised, after Grayling's privatisiation, led to the predicted spiralling costs and chaos in the Service.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 17, 2019, 08:30:22
Funnily enough, I think that Corbyn already has his legacy.  His policy of constructive ambiguity on Brexit in 2017 was sufficient to ruin May's election gamble that year.  And while he didn't win the election, he did enough to blunt the Tories' hard Brexit charge by relieving them of their majority.

Having done this, I can't see him achieving a lot else besides.  Constructive ambiguity served its purpose 2 yrs ago, but isn't working any more.  He must see that he's running out of road, and still would not be particularly surprised to see a change of tack on Brexit from Labour, even at this late stage.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 17, 2019, 09:26:26
If it's anything like the last one, then it won't get as far as the membership... my guess is that it will be an outsider, someone without baggage, probably not a woman this time... if a betting man my euro would be on Matt Hancock.

I would be inclined to agree on Hatt Mancock, the other dark horse is probably Rory the Tory? The downside of both is that they are both remain voting MP's which will put off most of the shires faithful who consider that they had theiir fingers burnt with May not being hard line enough.

The question is who is likely to get through to a membership vote, I cannot see the PCP letting Johnson or Rees-Mogg get that far as they appear to be fairly loathed by a lot of their colleagues, anyone like Loathsome and McVey would be an inept as Corbyn whilst Hunt has a lot of baggage.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 17, 2019, 10:03:00
Aren't all politicians marmite.

Tony Blair?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, May 18, 2019, 21:33:02
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7045141/Labour-MP-spy-Czechs-Party-grandee-issues-denial-archives-claim-passed-intelligence.html

Know anything about this Comrade Smeeton?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Sunday, May 19, 2019, 07:05:31
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7045141/Labour-MP-spy-Czechs-Party-grandee-issues-denial-archives-claim-passed-intelligence.html

Know anything about this Comrade Smeeton?

That’s so shocking! Disgusting! Totally unacceptable!

(That you actually read the Daily Mail ... )


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, May 19, 2019, 08:26:16
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7045141/Labour-MP-spy-Czechs-Party-grandee-issues-denial-archives-claim-passed-intelligence.html

Know anything about this Comrade Smeeton?

(https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/190517103414-01-grumpy-cat-file-restricted-medium-plus-169.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, May 19, 2019, 18:15:46
(https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/190517103414-01-grumpy-cat-file-restricted-medium-plus-169.jpg)

One fat cat preying on defenceless small prey and the other a fat feline.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Sunday, May 19, 2019, 19:41:49
Aaah, Grumpy Cat. Sadly no longer with us.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, May 19, 2019, 20:11:33
Aaah, Grumpy Cat. Sadly no longer with us.

Yep... a dead cat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 20, 2019, 09:35:40
Yep... a dead cat.

Possibly too subtle?

With the usual Yougov caveats, its starting to get interesting..;..

Westminster voting intention:
LAB: 24% (-16)
CON: 24% (-18)
BREX: 18% (+18)
LDEM: 18% (+11)
GRN: 6% (+4)
CHUK: 2% (+2)
UKIP: 2% (-)
via @YouGov, 8 - 17 May
Chgs. w/ 2017 result.

To be honest its very clear that Labour are getting a squeaky bum about the Lib Dems as suddenly over the weekend the usual Corbynsita mouthpieces (Owen Jones, Rachael Swindon etc) have started directing all their propaganda against the LD's rather than Farage or the Tories.

Interesting times.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, May 20, 2019, 12:42:14
When it comes to Brexit, do Labour actually have a policy that is liked by any voters?  They really want to be remain, in which case just take that view, but have tried to play along with the vote and ended up with a position that I doubt very many people wold have voted for, pretty much a pointless one of staying in almost everything but saying you are out.  I can see why voters would therefore have no reason to vote for them when Brexit is the single talking point.  The Lib Dems have continued pretending the vote went the other way, so they'll get a boon from those angry at the concept of Brexit.

Do any of the parties on the ballot have a pro-EU approach?  I doubt it, maybe Green?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, May 20, 2019, 12:54:56
When it comes to Brexit, do Labour actually have a policy
FIFY


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Panda Paws on Monday, May 20, 2019, 13:28:21
I see the club is coming under some criticism today for apparently canceling a Brexit Party event they were due to host tonight, as they've only just found out who the end client is and they do not allow any political events to be hosted.

Looks like the conferencing contractor is to blame on this one, but can't imagine it'll be reported that way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 20, 2019, 13:46:37
I see the club is coming under some criticism today for apparently canceling a Brexit Party event they were due to host tonight, as they've only just found out who the end client is and they do not allow any political events to be hosted.

Looks like the conferencing contractor is to blame on this one, but can't imagine it'll be reported that way.

Probably concerned about the cost of getting milkshake cleaned out of the carpets....  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/nigel-farage-hit-milkshake-during-16302021


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, May 20, 2019, 18:03:47
The clubs finances are so good, they didn't need the booking.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, May 20, 2019, 18:25:58
Possibly too subtle?

With the usual Yougov caveats, its starting to get interesting..;..

Westminster voting intention:
LAB: 24% (-16)
CON: 24% (-18)
BREX: 18% (+18)
LDEM: 18% (+11)
GRN: 6% (+4)
CHUK: 2% (+2)
UKIP: 2% (-)
via @YouGov, 8 - 17 May
Chgs. w/ 2017 result.

To be honest its very clear that Labour are getting a squeaky bum about the Lib Dems as suddenly over the weekend the usual Corbynsita mouthpieces (Owen Jones, Rachael Swindon etc) have started directing all their propaganda against the LD's rather than Farage or the Tories.

Interesting times.

Possibly then again possibly not...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Monday, May 20, 2019, 19:53:59
I popped down to the CG just after 7pm. There were people from either side in the car Park and it was good natured. I wished them all well for putting their point of view across & encouraged them to use their votes on Thursday.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 21, 2019, 10:05:29
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7045141/Labour-MP-spy-Czechs-Party-grandee-issues-denial-archives-claim-passed-intelligence.html

Know anything about this Comrade Smeeton?

I assume you realise that this story is total bollocks as the secrets he apparently gave away had been common knowledge for a few years. https://twitter.com/MeirionTweets/status/1130050579143774208

Anyone would think there was an election coming up.....  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, May 21, 2019, 17:33:12
I assume you realise that this story is total bollocks as the secrets he apparently gave away had been common knowledge for a few years. https://twitter.com/MeirionTweets/status/1130050579143774208

Anyone would think there was an election coming up.....  :D

Suits my narrative thanks. Enjoy your day.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 08:45:59
Good grief its like herding cats, although that might be unfair to cats to be honest. What is this fascination the right have with filming people all the time...... https://twitter.com/BBCWalesNews/status/1130940872445579264


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 08:50:46
Good grief its like herding cats, although that might be unfair to cats to be honest. What is this fascination the right have with filming people all the time...... https://twitter.com/BBCWalesNews/status/1130940872445579264
"You're a snowflake"
"No, you're a snowflake"
"I am considerably more Brexity than yow" (one for Harry Enfield fans).

Truly, they walk among us


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 08:53:52
There is no hope.  We are damaged beyond repair.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 08:57:15
There is no hope.  We are damaged beyond repair.
There's always been people like that. It's just that the Internet and social media have given them a platform and a sense of their own importance as they can "broadcast" to the like-minded. And the MP's nearly as bad :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 09:12:09
There's always been people like that. It's just that the Internet and social media have given them a platform and a sense of their own importance as they can "broadcast" to the like-minded. And the MP's nearly as bad :)

I didn't realise when I first posted it, but she is a bit of a celebrity this one...

https://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2019/04/climate-protest-bacon-lady-nicked.html?m=1


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 09:29:59
And the MP's nearly as bad :)

Think his reaction is spot on TBH. Laughing at her bat shit craziness while thinking she probably should have been aborted before birth.

Pretty much my opinion of her as well


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 10:10:26
I didn't realise when I first posted it, but she is a bit of a celebrity this one...

https://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2019/04/climate-protest-bacon-lady-nicked.html?m=1
Yeah, she's the kind of person SRK and Martin Costello look up to.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 11:49:17
I am often told that "Project Fear" is a Remain trait.....

31 March 2016

Farage: 'Vote to stay in EU will spell end of steel industry'






Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 15:36:20
The coup is allegedly on, in as much as you can seize power from someone who hasn't got any

https://twitter.com/joncraig/status/1131220451806588929?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 17:35:04
I wonder who will emerge from the vipers' nest and to what acclaim?

"Mother" Angela Leadsom is trailing her candidature already. 

Groundhog day as yet another Conservative leader is anointed to great acclaim with a mission to sock it to the EU.

Obviously the Brexitists, the Conservative MPs and the septuagenarian members knew at the time how pathetic Cameron and now May were because THEY are never wrong.    And certainly never accountable.   :hmmm:


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2Z-sPzWQAEGr-j.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 17:44:13
I am often told that "Project Fear" is a Remain trait.....

31 March 2016

Farage: 'Vote to stay in EU will spell end of steel industry'

He was right, If we'd left in March the government could have taken over the factory but eu rules which we're still run by forbid it. You can chalk that one up as another Remain job loss.







Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 18:38:24
why should the government take over the factory. its not like we depend on British steel


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 18:54:27
Reg 1 Sir Red Ken 0.  

Never seen the Corbynista line from SRK before.  "Why? is a good question.

SRK is of course wrong.  It is true that there is EU Competition Law [competition rules apply to all trade agreements].  The EU approves 3/4 of applications to give state aid and prevents confiscation-style nationalisations, not nationalisation itself.

US tariffs on Chinese steel have caused a surplus of Chinese steel that it is dumping.  The EU wished to
react to US tariffs on Chinese steel to mitigate any dumping here.  Unfortunately for British Steel, one EU member chose to block that move.  The UK.

Not all Brexiters but ERG-types accept the death of UK manufacturing as a price to pay.  Hence Widdicombes "factories close" comment on Honda.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 19:35:52
Leadsom has resigned from cabinet.

Who is going to make May look slightly less worse now


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 20:33:41
Leadsom has resigned from cabinet.

Who is going to make May look slightly less worse now

Grayling

Oh sorry, you said slightly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 21:25:30
May wanted to do a three-year term at all costs for posterity. Will she make it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, May 23, 2019, 10:54:47
The PM has decided to pull the WA Bill, but is not offering her resignation.  Moving now from the bizarre to the surreal.  I'm not sure we have ever seen a politician cling to office so desperately before when the writing on the wall is so clear for everyone else to see.  If it's a dignified exit she's after, why not accept the inevitable?  The longer she holds on, the more likely she will be publicly forced out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, May 23, 2019, 11:16:09
Only delayed for now. They'll keep her there until next week so she can be hung out to dry for the local and Euro election failures.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, May 23, 2019, 12:22:12
I nearly feel sorry for the woman. This is because those hanging her out to dry are even more repulsive than she is....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, May 23, 2019, 12:59:38
Any time I begin to feel any sympathy for May, I look back on how she and her government have willingly and cruelly made things so difficult for the most vulnerable people in society.

Then I just think: Fuck her. And her ilk.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, May 23, 2019, 13:12:11
Any time I begin to feel any sympathy for May, I look back on how she and her government have willingly and cruelly made things so difficult for the most vulnerable people in society.

Then I just think: Fuck her. And her ilk.

I only got round to watching "I, Daniel Blake" this week. Should be obligatory viewing for the entire nation!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, May 23, 2019, 13:21:12
Any time I begin to feel any sympathy for May, I look back on how she and her government have willingly and cruelly made things so difficult for the most vulnerable people in society.

Then I just think: Fuck her. And her ilk.
This. Completely this. Brought it all on her own head. Now experiencing a hostile environment herself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 23, 2019, 13:34:32
The PM has decided to pull the WA Bill, but is not offering her resignation.  Moving now from the bizarre to the surreal.  I'm not sure we have ever seen a politician cling to office so desperately before when the writing on the wall is so clear for everyone else to see.  If it's a dignified exit she's after, why not accept the inevitable?  The longer she holds on, the more likely she will be publicly forced out.

Its hilarious, she refused to meet Ministers last night, then today nothing can be reported because of the election, following which parliament goes into recess (again) so MP's bugger of back to their constituencies.

You have to admire the bravery of the right, May hiding in no.10 from her own ministers whilst Farage hides on a bus as apparently there are people stood outside with milkshakes*!

*Headline from the Independent
(https://www.national-preservation.com/attachments/screenshot-2019-05-22-at-19-01-21-png.44092/)
I



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, May 23, 2019, 14:30:54
You have to admire the bravery of the right, May hiding in no.10 from her own ministers whilst Farage hides on a bus as apparently there are people stood outside with milkshakes*!

3 people, with hoodies, suspected of holding milkshakes :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 24, 2019, 08:42:03
One positive that I draw from the political chaos we're living through is that I'm provided with a daily, self-affirming reminder of why I'm not a Tory.  I'm not sure how I'm going to cope, though, when Johnson is crowned as leader.  Dark days.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 24, 2019, 08:55:09
Well, looks like it's finally coming to an end this morning. Hard to see what a new leader really changes, but at least we won't have to listen to Theresa May's "time for everyone to come together" speech again.

On the other hand, Boris cocking Johnson is within snaffling distance of being PM.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 24, 2019, 09:06:38
Well, looks like it's finally coming to an end this morning. Hard to see what a new leader really changes, but at least we won't have to listen to Theresa May's "time for everyone to come together" speech again.

On the other hand, Boris cocking Johnson is within snaffling distance of being PM.
He was after the referendum too. As one of the rival campaigns for leader was (anonymously) quoted as saying on the radio this morning, Boris is doing well because he's managed to shut up for a few weeks. The thing most likely to stop Boris is Boris


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 24, 2019, 09:08:21
He's calculating, self-serving and devious, but he's not stupid.  He'll have learned his lesson.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 24, 2019, 09:18:22
Just watched that resignation speech. Genuinely good anecdote about Sir Nicholas Winton telling her that compromise is not a dirty word, a message I think needs to be shouted loudly if we're to return to anything like a functioning government, but a bit rich in that she's spent the last couple of years stubbornly refusing to compromise on absolutely anything.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 24, 2019, 09:22:32
I would imagine that her famous red lines were not really hers at all, but red lines that she had to adhere to in order to keep the hard-right ERG faction of her party at bay.  So the 'compromise is not a dirty word' quote, if anything, was probably a dig at those who tied her hands in the negotiations.

Any reasonable person would have concluded long ago that implementing any decision made with a 52:48 split would entail a good deal more compromise than has been evident in the last 3 years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 24, 2019, 09:24:26
He's calculating, self-serving and devious, but he's not stupid.  He'll have learned his lesson.
He's not stupid. But he is incredibly lazy and massively bombastic, as his time at the Foreign Office shows, he's not a man given to learning lessons


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 24, 2019, 09:27:20
Hope you're right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 24, 2019, 09:28:49
I would imagine that her famous red lines were not really hers at all, but red lines that she had to adhere to in order to keep the hard-right ERG faction of her party at bay.  So the 'compromise is not a dirty word' quote, if anything, was probably a dig at those who tied her hands in the negotiations.

Any reasonable person would have concluded long ago that implementing any decision made with a 52:48 split would entail a good deal more compromise than has been evident in the last 3 years.

May was brought in to be a JRM style nanny, to clean up after the naughty boys had made their mess.... sadly for her they've just carried on being naughty.... all looks a bit Lord of the Flies in the Tories now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 24, 2019, 09:43:37
I have zero sympathy for her as she didn't have to do it and when she took it she could have made an effort to be more inclusive rather than just pandering to the whims of the far right of her party.

However, she must go down in history (In addition to a few other records including losses and contempt) as the only PM in history to be ousted by her party for not being damaging enough to the country and for doing the damage insufficiently fast.

As for who is going to get the job going forward, its going to be a hard brexiteer (unless the PCP can keep them off the ballot) and then the shitstorm is really going to begin.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 24, 2019, 09:49:55
I have zero sympathy for her as she didn't have to do it and when she took it she could have made an effort to be more inclusive rather than just pandering to the whims of the far right of her party.

However, she must go down in history (In addition to a few other records including losses and contempt) as the only PM in history to be ousted by her party for not being damaging enough to the country and for doing the damage insufficiently fast.

As for who is going to get the job going forward, its going to be a hard brexiteer (unless the PCP can keep them off the ballot) and then the shitstorm is really going to begin.

Once the Tories have had their pick, in the circumstances, I would say there has to be general election, fairly quickly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 24, 2019, 09:56:01
Once the Tories have had their pick, in the circumstances, I would say there has to be general election, fairly quickly.

Why? Not saying I agree in the slightest but I don't recall the GE after Brown ousted Blair for instance?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 24, 2019, 09:58:37
Hope you're right.
None of that necessarily stops the Tories choosing him anyway. If we've seen anything over the last few years, it's that making difficult but necessary choices has been completely abandoned in the face of naked self-interest. They know that Boris will be a disaster, but the dilemma they will face is do they want to be MPs in a disastrous government or do they want to lose their seats if they don't choose someone who can out-Farage Farage? We have entered the age of the oaf


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 24, 2019, 10:01:31
Sorry they are proper barking aren't they...

Conservative Peter Bone says the next leader has to be someone "who believes in Leave" and someone not associated with the Brexit deal.

"Either Esther McVey, Dominic Raab, David Davis or Boris Johnson.

"We also need someone who can walk on the world stage straight away and who can win the next election.

"I think the right person is Boris Johnson."


So someone not associated with the Brexit deal apparently includes two former Brexit Secs and also the Foreign Sec whilst the whole process was being undertaken, the other option being a particularly cluelesss  protege of IDS!

The cupboard is beyond bare.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 24, 2019, 10:03:42
None of that necessarily stops the Tories choosing him anyway. If we've seen anything over the last few years, it's that making difficult but necessary choices has been completely abandoned in the face of naked self-interest. They know that Boris will be a disaster, but the dilemma they will face is do they want to be MPs in a disastrous government or do they want to lose their seats if they don't choose someone who can out-Farage Farage? We have entered the age of the oaf

Its been quite telling that Johnson’s supporters have been pushing for her to go and want a rapid leadership contest because they are worried the longer it goes on, the more likely he will make a career-limiting gaffe.

So the calculus seems to “he’s bound to fuck it up at some time, so let’s make sure he is Prime Minister when he does so”. That’s the level of cynicism of the Tory Party.

When you just think we cannot become more of a laughing stock, they trump it. He is already considered a clown throughout the world after his stint as Foreign Secretary!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, May 24, 2019, 10:08:47
"The secret of success is sincerity. Once you can fake that you've got it made."

At least she'll hang on long enough to get her arse handled by Trump.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 24, 2019, 10:09:51
Why? Not saying I agree in the slightest but I don't recall the GE after Brown ousted Blair for instance?

Very different circumstances.... in the 2017 election, Tory manifesto on Brexit was to negotiate a deal which was best for UK and EU.... this was duly negotiated and presented to Parliament. Although not passed by Parliament, no deal was ruled out. Therefore logic dictates that to get no deal through as a policy rather than a default, it will need to go back to the electorate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 24, 2019, 10:15:52
Very different circumstances.... in the 2017 election, Tory manifesto on Brexit was to negotiate a deal which was best for UK and EU.... this was duly negotiated and presented to Parliament. Although not passed by Parliament, no deal was ruled out. Therefore logic dictates that to get no deal through as a policy rather than a default, it will need to go back to the electorate.

Since when has logic dictated anything, there is no legal requirement to have a GE,as it stands today a GE will not achieve anything for the Tories and thus the Tories will not hold a GE until the most favourable time for them (and Labour would do exactly the same thing!).

What would be most interesting to see how the polling goes after a new leader has been appointed, considering how shite Corbyn has been doing against the worst PM in living memory/history if they get a populist who seems to be saying the right things and getting a bounce they may go to the polls anyway, although it is not remotely in Tory interests to see Corbyn off as he remains probably their best asset in terms of beating Labour.

BTW is it Sunday that we get the EU election results?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 24, 2019, 10:34:13
Since when has logic dictated anything, there is no legal requirement to have a GE,as it stands today a GE will not achieve anything for the Tories and thus the Tories will not hold a GE until the most favourable time for them (and Labour would do exactly the same thing!).

What would be most interesting to see how the polling goes after a new leader has been appointed, considering how shite Corbyn has been doing against the worst PM in living memory/history if they get a populist who seems to be saying the right things and getting a bounce they may go to the polls anyway, although it is not remotely in Tory interests to see Corbyn off as he remains probably their best asset in terms of beating Labour.

BTW is it Sunday that we get the EU election results?

If the new Tory leaders aim is no deal, he/she will still come up against numbers in Parliament against... the deal between UK and EU is still on the table, so something will have to change, and the best way will be a GE.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 24, 2019, 10:36:04
BTW is it Sunday that we get the EU election results?
Monday, counting is on Sunday


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Oldwembley69 on Friday, May 24, 2019, 10:37:50
May to resign on 7th June :clap:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Friday, May 24, 2019, 12:04:26
I would imagine that her famous red lines were not really hers at all, but red lines that she had to adhere to in order to keep the hard-right ERG faction of her party at bay.  So the 'compromise is not a dirty word' quote, if anything, was probably a dig at those who tied her hands in the negotiations.

Any reasonable person would have concluded long ago that implementing any decision made with a 52:48 split would entail a good deal more compromise than has been evident in the last 3 years.

How about a split of one million, two hundred and sixty nine thousand, five hundred and one.

Dark horse for Tory leadership: Stephen Barclay.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 24, 2019, 12:25:33
How about a split of one million, two hundred and sixty nine thousand, five hundred and one.

Dark horse for Tory leadership: Stephen Barclay.

I suspect the problem Barclay will have is that he has been Brexit Sec for a while and has not resigned which for many of the hardcore will possibly be seen as tacit support for her 'deal' and thus will be smeared for that mess.

Probably a lot will depend on what type of leader they want, a high profile one with no substance, a laughable national and international reputation and ability not being important (so Johnson, Davis or Raab) or one who might actually unite the party a bit and also at least to try and engage again with the majority of the electorate rather than just the 60+ wealthy demographic, still think Rory the Tory or Hatt Mancock may meet that criteria but lets be honest we know its just going to be the hardest right nutter they can find.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 24, 2019, 12:30:05
Sky are reporting...

'Former Cabinet Minister David Mellor says he has "never been more embarrassed and humiliated" to be a member of the Conservative party'

It must be bad for him to be embarrassed!  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, May 24, 2019, 12:56:32
James Cleverly could very well be a dark horse. Names not mentioned anywhere.........yet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 24, 2019, 14:02:42
Sky are reporting...

'Former Cabinet Minister David Mellor says he has "never been more embarrassed and humiliated" to be a member of the Conservative party'

It must be bad for him to be embarrassed!  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:
For those who don't remember or are too young:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3PwopgIQAA6sni.jpg)
As Horlock says, this is a man with a high embarrassment threshold


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 24, 2019, 14:10:00
James Cleverly could very well be a dark horse. Names not mentioned anywhere.........yet.

That's a bit racist isn't it?  ;)

He is possibly the most inappropriately named MP the house..... 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 24, 2019, 14:11:10
For those who don't remember or are too young:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3PwopgIQAA6sni.jpg)
As Horlock says, this is a man with a high embarrassment threshold

I know a Chelsea kit when they were still shit!

All shown subsequently to be completely fabricated nonsense, made up by Max Clifford.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, May 24, 2019, 14:17:12
That's a bit racist isn't it?  ;)

He is possibly the most inappropriately named MP the house..... 
Didn't think of that. He's well thought of. It may be s bit early for him but he's one for the future if Tories have a future.
There is talk of a Boris and nige coalition. That probably wouldn't go down well here.
I think both parties should be scared of a GE at the moment as Nigel will cause chaos.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 24, 2019, 14:29:44
Didn't think of that. He's well thought of. It may be s bit early for him but he's one for the future if Tories have a future.
There is talk of a Boris and nige coalition. That probably wouldn't go down well here.
I think both parties should be scared of a GE at the moment as Nigel will cause chaos.

On a base level the idea of a Farage Johnson coalition would be brilliant, we are already a laughing stock (speaking to a friend who is Germany on business this morning, he confirms that they are openly laughing on the TV at the latest news in the UK's national nervous breakdown), so why not make it even better and go worldwide, plus it would make the two shysters acyually take responsibility and own their shit! FWIW Johnson is so ego driven I don't think he can see beyond the prize and the scope to make a prize bellend of himself, Farage is bright enough to know that if he actually had some power he would be held to account and also be subject to close scrutiny as to where his cash comes from which doesn't suit his operation or fabricated public image.

More seriously there do seem to be a hell of a lot of people around suggesting that they voted for Farage as a protest vote in the EU elections, but would return to the family fold if there wre a GE?*

* Which in itself is rather peculiar as a key facet of Brexit for many was that the EU had taken power from parliament so one would expect brexiteers to take more care of who they elect in the primary (in their eyes) legislative forum i.e. the EU and leave the joke to the toothless UK parliament?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Friday, May 24, 2019, 14:36:52
Jeremy Hunt's thrown his name into the ring... fuck it,  why not Chris Grayling?  Hell, let's resurrect Neville Chamberlain.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 24, 2019, 14:45:37
Jeremy Hunt's thrown his name into the ring... fuck it,  why not Chris Grayling?  Hell, let's resurrect Neville Chamberlain. 

I think Grayling did try and thrown his hat in the ring, unfortunately it missed!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Friday, May 24, 2019, 14:47:26
How about a split of one million, two hundred and sixty nine thousand, five hundred and one.


Whichever way you write it, it is still a 52:48 split.. or Seventeen Million, four hundred and ten thousand, Seven hundred and forty two:Sixteen Million, one hundred and forty one thousand, two hundred and forty one split...  or a difference of one million, two hundred and sixty nine thousand, five hundred and one in a vote that involved 33 million, five hundred and seventy seven thousand, three hundred and forty two.

If you think continuously repeating the number of the winning margin equates to anything different to a 52:48 split then you are wrong.  Brexit won so Brexit should happen, but stop making it out that anyone that mentions the fact that it was a 52:48 split is implying that the result isn't valid, they aren't..  they are just making a point without having to make it sound like it was more by repeating the full number..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, May 24, 2019, 15:03:04
If a hard brexit is such a popular idea, why isn’t the brexit party polling at more than 50%?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 24, 2019, 15:52:26
If a hard brexit is such a popular idea, why isn’t the brexit party polling at more than 50%?

I think it rather supports the POV that not everyone who voted Brexit would necessarily vote for a far right dubious party?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 24, 2019, 15:57:59
I see that in entirely unsurprising news Cable is buggering off also, no doubt decided that the toxicity has reduced enough for Swinson to take the reigns.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 24, 2019, 16:04:12
If a hard brexit is such a popular idea, why isn’t the brexit party polling at more than 50%?

Polling suggests that there is no longer a majority for any kind of Brexit, let alone a hard one.  [Insert pun here.]


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 24, 2019, 16:37:33
Polling suggests that there is no longer a majority for any kind of Brexit, let alone a hard one.  [Insert pun here.]

Indeed, if we assume that IPSOS Mori's final poll is something like right, and that voters have broadly voted along lines of their Brexit position, then you have something like

Hard Brexit (Brexit+UKIP) - 38%
May's deal (Conservatives) - 9%
Softer Brexit (Labour) - 15%
Remain (Lib Dem + Green + ChangeUK) - 33%
Others - 5%

So you know, who the fuck knows how you deal with that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, May 24, 2019, 17:42:57
The Country has spoken, we just have no idea in what language.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 24, 2019, 18:13:01
Polling suggests that there is no longer a majority for any kind of Brexit, let alone a hard one.  [Insert pun here.]
Polling suggested Remain would win the referendum and the Tories would win the last general election. Polling is nearly as discredited as politicians


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Saturday, May 25, 2019, 04:52:57
That's because many share my hobby of lying to opinion pollsters.

The remain minority has done a great job of fucking this whole thing up. If only we had LEFT the EU by now as directed by the 2016 referedum. The brilliant post-referendum remain campaign keeps drip feeding why people should not have voted to leave, but in the style of Monty Python please tell me:

 "What has the European Union ever done for us?".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Saturday, May 25, 2019, 06:26:54
"What has the European Union ever done for us?".

Allowed people to use their mobile phone abroad on their existing contractual terms?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Saturday, May 25, 2019, 07:23:41
An excellent initiative by the EU which also applies to some European countries outside the EU.

I'd need a little bit more than that to be persuaded to join a Federal States of Europe though. What else please?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 25, 2019, 08:43:44
What else please?

 A better question would be, what have we done for ourselves, which EU membership has helped facilitate? 

 Your Python "Roman" analogy, implies being subjugated by conquest or force into an Empire, which is simply not the case here.

 So the answer to my facilitate question would be..... many things both for individuals, and for businesses of various sizes, further enhanced the fostering cultural links, all of which has helped towards largely maintaining peace in Europe.

 An example would be beach cleanliness and waste management.... the UK has had to raise its standards, as required by the agreed EU legislation.

 Now it can be argued that we can do all these things for ourselves, although in or out, if we want to trade with the EU we'll still be tied into meeting their standards. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Saturday, May 25, 2019, 10:42:34
An excellent initiative by the EU which also applies to some European countries outside the EU.

I'd need a little bit more than that to be persuaded to join a Federal States of Europe though. What else please?

The ability of any UK resident to travel, work or live in any other EU country without visas or work permits?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, May 25, 2019, 10:48:26
free trade within the SM and better negotiating power outside

better workers rights, conditions.

improved standards for products.

 rules leading to improved environment

many projects and infrastructure improvements.

a veto to block anything we don't like.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, May 25, 2019, 11:02:25
Ok. Try this. What do remainder see aa a negative to the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, May 25, 2019, 11:35:58
inefficiencies in the bureaucracy mainly.
--
never had an issue with the cost. its £150 a year, 2.70 a week. I spend more on lunch in Morrisons.

never had an issue with immigration itself. most of my my ' ffs' have come from issues from the non-eu immigrants anyway.

tldr: its not perfect, but it's a fuckton better than being out (imo)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 25, 2019, 11:40:50
Ok. Try this. What do remainder see aa a negative to the EU.

CAP isn't great.... works against biodiversity and aids monoculture.  Bureaucracy is somewhat inefficient, but compensated elsewhere, by things like not needing so many Customs and Excise at ports.

Sticking a political nose in eastern Europe, is probably not a great idea, but largely at the behest of UK anyway.... but after the Sarum poisoning HMG rapidly sought the support of fellow EU countries, as Putin would prefer the UK out of Europe.

The democratic process is a bit clunky, but something to work on.... the UK's democracy similarly is considered unfit for purpose by many and needs reform.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, May 25, 2019, 12:17:33
CAP isn't great.... works against biodiversity and aids monoculture.  Bureaucracy is somewhat inefficient, but compensated elsewhere, by things like not needing so many Customs and Excise at ports.

Sticking a political nose in eastern Europe, is probably not a great idea, but largely at the behest of UK anyway.... but after the Sarum poisoning HMG rapidly sought the support of fellow EU countries, as Putin would prefer the UK out of Europe.

The democratic process is a bit clunky, but something to work on.... the UK's democracy similarly is considered unfit for purpose by many and needs reform.

Except you. Give someone else a chance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Saturday, May 25, 2019, 13:44:12
The EU's founding Treaty came about with a goal of ending Wars in Europe, something that had littered our continent since Nations were created and before.  Thus far it has been a success.

The rest was Social, Economic and Political Cohesion.

Social policies have created many laws in the UK that the vast majority of people would not roll back - minimum wage, maximum working hours, time off entitlements etc.

Economic - the single market and freedom of movement have reduced trade barriers and enabled people opportunities that were far more unlikely before.  It's not perfect here yet, it will never really be.  You get regional variation - just like the UK has with London vs. North East for example.  If left alone, over time, this will balance as people move to where the work is - not that this will be a quikc fix for those in affected areas today.  The EU just provides more opportunities for people to make a personal choice - stay local and risk economic suffering, or move to where the work is right now.  This is the issue that has created the Brexit situation - people take umbrage ate those migrants because we, the UK, haven't really ever brought into the freedom of movement thing unless it means creating a gated community in Southern Spain of course.

Political - this is the one that needs more work, the constructs are actually pretty good - countries have direct and indirect representation in the three areas running the EU.   However, as with any political machine you get greedy humans involved.  The EU still acts in protectionist ways as a Bloc


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Saturday, May 25, 2019, 14:31:11
Excellent debate. On my fact finding visit to the European Commission and the European Parliament in Brussels last month the EU literature does keep banging on about peace in Europe. I kept thinking about Yugoslavia, so maybe the EU are talking about peace in the EU? I'm not sure.

My fisherman friend who sails out of Penzance is a great proponent of the UK leaving the UK. The current constraints on the UK fishing fleet are appalling.

I am not convinced that there will be an end to migrant workers, school exchange visits or holiday makers both ways when Parliament gets it act together and the UK leaves the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 25, 2019, 14:51:17
Excellent debate. On my fact finding visit to the European Commission and the European Parliament in Brussels last month the EU literature does keep banging on about peace in Europe. I kept thinking about Yugoslavia, so maybe the EU are talking about peace in the EU? I'm not sure.

My fisherman friend who sails out of Penzance is a great proponent of the UK leaving the UK. The current constraints on the UK fishing fleet are appalling.

I am not convinced that there will be an end to migrant workers, school exchange visits or holiday makers both ways when Parliament gets it act together and the UK leaves the EU.


Interesting that you should mention Penzance, as I was down there recently and it struck me the amount of EU money that had and was still being spent on various projects around West Penwith and Cornwall generally.  Such a project would be the Jubillee Pool an outdoor swimming pool where the water is heated by accessing geothermal rocks below the surface.  I thought a certain irony in the trust implicit in Brexit voters that the UK government would replace this sort  of regional funding and not just carry on pumping investment into London and the SE.

Of course the reason for HMG favouring London over the regions is that the economy is so dependent on the financial and other service industries, that it cannot be allowed to fail, hence why The City has already negotiated its own deal with the EU, a sort of state within a state.

Fishing is a complex industry, because fish move about in different territorial waters and stocks are not infinite, and tastes for types of fish vary between countries... it's also miniscule in terms of numbers employed and contribution to GDP, hence why governments don't care too much.   Nevertheless there is still some sort of fishing industry in Newlyn, and long may it last.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, May 25, 2019, 16:15:18
Excellent debate. On my fact finding visit to the European Commission and the European Parliament in Brussels last month the EU literature does keep banging on about peace in Europe. I kept thinking about Yugoslavia, so maybe the EU are talking about peace in the EU? I'm not sure.
The idea was that if the major European nations were trading with each other and economically interdependent, they would be less likely to go to war with each other. Yugoslavia was essentially an inter-ethnic civil war, rather than a war between established nation states (albeit some of the parties to the conflict had nominally become separate states shortly before, they were not fully established as separate nation states at the time of the conflict)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Saturday, May 25, 2019, 19:10:09
Quote

I'd need a little bit more than that to be persuaded to join a Federal States of Europe though. What else please?

We no longer have pesky bent cucumbers


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Saturday, May 25, 2019, 19:20:39
We no longer have pesky bent cucumbers

Other than Nigel Farage


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, May 25, 2019, 19:23:32
I find the fishing arguement utterly ridiculous. The seas are absolutely fucked how things are currently going, regardless of who can fish where. The fact is fish stocks are being decimated. Why do you think we have so many gulls and cormorants etc coming inland. Human consumption is destroying the oceans and it's inhabitants.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, May 26, 2019, 15:57:09
Well that was pointless then:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/26/heidi-allen-says-change-uk-could-merge-with-liberal-democrats


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Sunday, May 26, 2019, 18:56:03
If Britain elects poll is correct, brexit party and Tory combined has 48% of the vote, which would not be a mandate for a hard, cliff edge brexit

Which is how Farage would tell it, I’m sure


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, May 26, 2019, 19:15:31
If Britain elects poll is correct, brexit party and Tory combined has 48% of the vote, which would not be a mandate for a hard, cliff edge brexit

Which is how Farage would tell it, I’m sure

Its a world trade Brexit. Hard and cliff edge are commie soundbites for the sheep to bleat.
Glad I could help correct your mis-understanding.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, May 26, 2019, 20:18:23
Disappointing news of a split in the Lord Buckethead camp:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/26/lord-buckethead-double-trouble-theresa-may


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 10:05:48

Fishing is a complex industry, because fish move about in different territorial waters and stocks are not infinite, and tastes for types of fish vary between countries.

Love the confusion of this sentence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 17:03:17
There is no possible compromise for Brexit. It’s either out with no deal or remain.

It’s so fucking obvious.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 18:38:20
There is no possible compromise for Brexit. It’s either out with no deal or remain.

It’s so fucking obvious.

Yep, get out and figure out how to carry on after.  Tough luck if it is painful, that's the point.  If people voted leave and didn't want that, tough shit, think harder next time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 18:38:51
Say the two people who've abandoned ship


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 09:44:15
The far right do like a woman-beater as their leaders don't they?

It's easy to miss the domestic violence in the exhaustive conviction list of the convicted drug dealer football hooligan mortgage fraudster wife beater Yaxley-Lennon (ta Tommy Robinson), and now convicted racist criminal Paul Golding, current leader of Britain First, is recorded fessing up to beating up his ex and one-time co-leader:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-48440464

It's almost like they've got something wrong with them isn't it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 09:45:55
The far right do like a woman-beater as their leaders don't they?

It's easy to miss the domestic violence in the exhaustive conviction list of the convicted drug dealer football hooligan mortgage fraudster wife beater Yaxley-Lennon (ta Tommy Robinson), and now convicted racist criminal Paul Golding, current leader of Britain First, is recorded fessing up to beating up his ex and one-time co-leader:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-48440464

It's almost like they've got something wrong with them isn't it?

Don't forget the prevalence of paedophiles in their ranks as well.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 10:07:40
Don't forget the prevalence of paedophiles in their ranks as well.....
One seriously fucked-up character flaw at a time please.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 10:09:38
One seriously fucked-up character flaw at a time please.

So is now not a good time to mention Claire Fox?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 10:21:55
So is now not a good time to mention Claire Fox?
TBF, I don't think she's got any criminal convictions has she? She's "just" an unrepentant Trotskyite who's never backtracked on her support for the IRA bombing of Warrington who's now the Brexit Party MEP for the North West, including Warrington. Precisely the kind of "commie" you'd have thought the Brexiteers would hate, but it seems these days they use the term "commie" to refer to liberals, and welcome unreformed actual communists with open arms. It's all a bit confusing


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 10:22:28
And on the same theme of the far right crossover with the far left, what a shameful day for the Labour Party

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48433964


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 10:41:58
if Labour can get all the party anti-Semites to declare their vote for the Brexit party ( ;) ) then Labour HQ would rid themselves of them within 24 hours.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 10:52:34
TBF, I don't think she's got any criminal convictions has she? She's "just" an unrepentant Trotskyite who's never backtracked on her support for the IRA bombing of Warrington who's now the Brexit Party MEP for the North West, including Warrington. Precisely the kind of "commie" you'd have thought the Brexiteers would hate, but it seems these days they use the term "commie" to refer to liberals, and welcome unreformed actual communists with open arms. It's all a bit confusing

I was actually thinking about her interesting thoughts on child pornography?

I think commie is more generally spared for anyone who gives a shit about their fellow man really?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 10:53:28
And on the same theme of the far right crossover with the far left, what a shameful day for the Labour Party

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48433964
But Shami said it was all ok before Corbyn nominated her for the House of Lords.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 10:56:27
And on the same theme of the far right crossover with the far left, what a shameful day for the Labour Party

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48433964

They had a funny old day yesterday, what with this and also expelling Campbell for saying (after the event) that he voted Lib Dem, yet Hoey who was actively canvassing for Newkip seems to still be in the fold?

If they expel everyone who expressed support for an opposing party....

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7uL6bMWwAE2TMv.jpg:large)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 11:03:09
I was actually thinking about her interesting thoughts on child pornography?
Sorry yes, forgot she was a friend to paedos as well as the IRA. Just the kind of person Brexit Party supporters would want to represent them, clearly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 11:16:17
And on the same theme of the far right crossover with the far left, what a shameful day for the Labour Party

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48433964

Devil's Advocate... isn't that the organisation that conflates antisemitism with critiscism of Isreali foreign policy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 11:25:33
But Shami said it was all ok before Corbyn nominated her for the House of Lords.
:nod:

Personally, I believe in human rights as an absolute value to always be maintained....regardless.

To my ears, "so called human rights" is a vile expression.

However, Shami is a shameless careerist who has leveraged human rights to benefit her shabby career.  Precisely the kind of extreme and biased advocate that encourages that vile "so-called" expression.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 12:13:34
Devil's Advocate... isn't that the organisation that conflates antisemitism with critiscism of Isreali foreign policy?
The complainant may be, but the Equality and Human Rights Commission which has taken on the complaint and decided it merits investigation doesn't. Labour has a problem with anti-Semitism among some members; they may well be a small unrepresentative minority, just as Islamophobes are in the Tory Party. But Labour's ongoing failure to deal with the issue at all, never mind decisively has laid it wide open. There is a case to answer. If they'd shown they treated anti-Semitism as seriously as voting Lib Dem, there wouldn't be a problem.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 12:36:32
Sorry I'm mixing up EHRC with IHRA... ignore me


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 13:05:52
Sorry I'm mixing up EHRC with IHRA... ignore me
Always do :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 13:32:09
Sorry I'm mixing up EHRC with IHRA... ignore me

Lets call the whole thing off  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 21:42:06
Fantastic that Boris is in court for the NHS Brexit Bus at the same time as the Tory leadership contest begins. It harms his chances surely? Though in a weird world I'm wondering if all press is good press.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, May 30, 2019, 03:00:31
Can anyone explain to me how holding a GE would sort out Brexit as Corbyn claims.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, May 30, 2019, 05:57:29
Can anyone explain to me how holding a GE would sort out Brexit as Corbyn claims.
The premise is that parliament as it stands is hopelessly deadlocked and so a new parliament is required that would alter the balance of power to give someone a working majority. Corbyn hopes that would be him. At the moment, it's just as likely to be a Farage-Tory coalition


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, May 30, 2019, 07:03:18
Recipe for disaster that. So, if you want to Remain but despise Corbyn’s/Cable’s domestic agenda who are people supposed for?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, May 30, 2019, 07:33:16
Recipe for disaster that. So, if you want to Remain but despise Corbyn’s/Cable’s domestic agenda who are people supposed for?
How are we going to remain, we voted to leave and haven't yet. Do we keep voting until we get a remain result, be it euro election,general election, local elections or another referendum. Why doesn't someone jjust say we can't leave and previous vote can just be ignored, then UK will stay in the eussr as free democratic Nation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, May 30, 2019, 07:39:37
There is no consensus in parliament to leave with a deal. There is no way Parliament will sign off on no deal.

Hence the stagnation. Even a 2nd referendum may not settle it. What if one of the choices is ‘Leave with a deal’ - we’d be back where we are now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, May 30, 2019, 07:53:05
There is no consensus in parliament to leave with a deal. There is no way Parliament will sign off on no deal.

Hence the stagnation. Even a 2nd referendum may not settle it. What if one of the choices is ‘Leave with a deal’ - we’d be back where we are now.
[/quote
Paliment needs to enact the result the 2016 ref.which it would have if remain had won they would have instantly. They aren't respecting the peoples wishes.
They wouldn't take the chance with a second ref like last time,leave wouldn't be on the ballot paper, the choices will be . Remain on our old deal, remain on a new deal, and remain. Children and foreign citizen will be allowed to vote. Ballot boxes will be opened prior to counting so any spoilt or not completed votes can be ammended. Simples


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 30, 2019, 08:02:03
There is no consensus in parliament to leave with a deal. There is no way Parliament will sign off on no deal.

Hence the stagnation. Even a 2nd referendum may not settle it. What if one of the choices is ‘Leave with a deal’ - we’d be back where we are now.

Ken Clarke's leave but stay in the Custom's Union, lost by 6 votes in the indicative votes.... Labour proposed something similar.  It's not beyond the realms of possibiity something like this could be got through.  The problem has been Tory incompetence as much as anything else.  May could have had talks with other parties and indicative votes from the start... instead of leaving it until the last minute, by chaining herself to the ERG.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, May 30, 2019, 08:19:16
There is no consensus in parliament to leave with a deal. There is no way Parliament will sign off on no deal.

Hence the stagnation. Even a 2nd referendum may not settle it. What if one of the choices is ‘Leave with a deal’ - we’d be back where we are now.

Its OK our true government are meeting soon, they will decide how the country is run not the citizens.

The 2019 Bilderberg meeting will take place at the Hotel Montreux Palace in the Swiss town of Montreux from today, 30/5/2019 until Sunday.
The key topics for discussion this year are:
1. A Stable Strategic Order
2. What Next for Europe?
3. Climate Change and Sustainability
4. China
5. Russia
6. The Future of Capitalism
7. Brexit
8. The Ethics of Artificial Intelligence
9. The Weaponisation of Social Media
10. The Importance of Space
11. Cyber Threats

LIST OF UK PARTICIPANTS
Adonis, Andrew (GBR), Member, House of Lords
Bostrom, Nick (UK), Director, Future of Humanity Institute, Oxford University
Carney, Mark J. (GBR), Governor, Bank of England
Fleming, Jeremy (GBR), Director, British Government Communications Headquarters
Garton Ash, Timothy (GBR), Professor of European Studies, Oxford University
Lund, Helge (GBR), Chairman, BP plc; Chairman, Novo Nordisk AS
Minton Beddoes, Zanny (GBR), Editor-in-Chief, The Economist
Sawers, John (GBR), Executive Chairman, Newbridge Advisory
Shafik, Minouche (GBR), Director, The London School of Economics and Political Science


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, May 30, 2019, 08:21:38
(https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/weirdalfoil_2322.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Thursday, May 30, 2019, 12:30:57
I don't know if it helps in the context of this much more rational debate, but the Reith Lecture broadcast on R4 on Tuesday morning is a very clear exposition, from Judge Jonathan Sumption, of the significant change to the democratic process (and, he would say, damage) that the referendum and subsequent processes have caused.  I have to say I found it spell-binding.  Not sure it will convince everyone on here, but it is worth a listen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, May 30, 2019, 15:48:56
Good pointer.  Thanks.

I'm biased but Sumption is very bright and worth a listen

He was the only Law Lord known to the Daily Mail to have shown any Eurosceptic leanings back in 2016.

As such he wasn't one to have been labelled a traitor on its front page.

This is the Mail's take on the separation of powers between the Executive, the Legislature and the Judiciary:

A decision by the Supreme Court against the Government’s right to trigger Article 50 would raise profound questions about the power of an unelected judiciary to over-ride the will of the British people.  In this context, it is vital that the judges are seen to be independent. Yet four of the 11 members of the Supreme Court have formal links to either the EU, its courts or European institutions; five have publicly expressed views which appear to be sympathetic to the EU; while six have personal links with individuals who have been critical of the Leave campaign.
Only four have no obvious associations with the Remain ethos. Just one, Lord Sumption, has given indications of Euroscepticism.  Crucially, the British justice system revolves around the principle that judges — and particularly Supreme Court judges — are fair-minded individuals capable of treating all cases entirely on their legal merits, regardless of their private loyalties.


How different might have been the recent course of history had the Supreme Court held that Art. 50 could have been triggered by the PM/Government?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Thursday, May 30, 2019, 20:37:02
We won 2-0


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 30, 2019, 20:46:02
We won 2-0

I'd have thought this was more your thing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRCXa74oit0

... take on and beat The Rest of the World.... even give the RotW a Scot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, May 31, 2019, 08:26:36
We won 2-0

Didn’t realise you were Danish


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 4, 2019, 11:58:01
Shambles:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/04/change-uk-poised-to-lose-at-least-half-its-mps-heidi-allen-chuka-umunna-lib-dems


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, June 4, 2019, 12:01:17
Shambles:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/04/change-uk-poised-to-lose-at-least-half-its-mps-heidi-allen-chuka-umunna-lib-dems

Over before it began. Shame really as a party of real change would have been good. Never really started being anything like that though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 4, 2019, 12:12:12
Shambles:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/04/change-uk-poised-to-lose-at-least-half-its-mps-heidi-allen-chuka-umunna-lib-dems

Some would say shambles, some would say at least from an electoral POV common sense.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 4, 2019, 12:18:28
Over before it began. Shame really as a party of real change would have been good. Never really started being anything like that though.

Thing is there was very little in terms of political objectives to differentiate between the two and the LD's have all the background infrastructure in place already to manage a membership run campaigns etc etc.

As it stood it was just another party to split the centre vote, as the EU results showed the political leanings of the electorate have not changed a great deal (despite the best spinning attempts), Newkip and the Tories will be fighting over the rump of UKIP and the Tory vote, Labour vote is dropping generally so makes sense to me to reduce competition in a congested field.

Probably also part achieved an objective in that it appears to have focused many Labour minds that Corbyn is not invincible and dissenters can and will leave.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, June 4, 2019, 12:32:54
Yep, would make absolute sense


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, June 4, 2019, 13:21:01
If only there was a party that could set up effectively in a few weeks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 4, 2019, 13:48:56
If only there was a party that could set up effectively in a few weeks.

I assume you mean Newkip?

If that is the case it is not a party, as it stands its a Ltd Company and thus has had not had to go through many of the hoops parties have to go through to build infrastructure, further enhanced by fact that as you cannot actually join the party there is no membership to manage nor associated administration issues.

Ultimately getting a copy of the electoral register, printing and posting out some leaflets is comparatively easy. Add to this a daily PPB on the BBC from the day of incorporation and its really rather different.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 4, 2019, 14:20:35
I assume you mean Newkip?

If that is the case it is not a party, as it stands its a Ltd Company and thus has had not had to go through many of the hoops parties have to go through to build infrastructure, further enhanced by fact that as you cannot actually join the party there is no membership to manage nor associated administration issues.
Given the hooting about democracy from its leader and many of its adherents, the fact that the Brexit Party is itself in no way democratic is ironic, but not surprising. Like all of Nigel's "values", democracy is something he spouts when it suits his argument and brushes aside when it doesn't


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 5, 2019, 12:46:54
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-03/trump-visit-uk-why-the-president-loves-brexit-so-much


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, June 5, 2019, 13:58:35
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-03/trump-visit-uk-why-the-president-loves-brexit-so-much

TBF... our resident Brexiteers were probably voting for extra cash for the NHS, as Johnson promised, just they probably didn't realise they'd have to pay for it, after via US insurance companies, have had their cut.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, June 5, 2019, 14:24:49
Don’t think I’d fancy being given a bed bath by the snarling harpy of a nurse giving that fella grief for supporting Trump.

Fucking witch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 5, 2019, 14:29:22
TBF... our resident Brexiteers were probably voting for extra cash for the NHS, as Johnson promised, just they probably didn't realise they'd have to pay for it, after via US insurance companies, have had their cut.
Not just US insurance companies, it's no coincidence that Nigel "We're probably going to have to replace the NHS" Farage's major funder is Arron Banks who made his initial money in insurance (before he started making money from Russian diamond mines). And it's not just insurance - there was a very interesting discussion on the radio this morning with a former UK trade negotiator who pointed out that US pharma companies would be very interested in getting "access" to the NHS to stop NIICE et al setting maximum prices the NHS will pay for their proprietary drugs - if they get away with that, the costs to the NHS will go through the roof.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, June 5, 2019, 14:34:01
This is what happens when there's a weak opposition that can't keep the nasty party in check.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Balthazar Impresario on Wednesday, June 5, 2019, 16:50:06
This is what happens when there's a weak opposition that can't keep the nasty party in check.

Genuine question, until Brexit is sorted what can Labour do? They wouldn't get a majority in another election, seems like all they can do is shout about how shit the tories are until the tide turns in their favour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 5, 2019, 16:54:20
Genuine question, until Brexit is sorted what can Labour do?
a) Get off the fence and provide a clear answer as to what they think we should do
b) Stop navel-gazing as hostage to Corbyn's student posturings from 40-odd years ago
c) Generally act like a grown-up political party


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, June 5, 2019, 16:57:39
Be afraid, be very afraid.  Healthcare is a mess over here.  Most people don't think so, because they are currently healthy, conveniently forgetting everyone dies eventually.  Drug pricing is a huge issue over here, alongside the culture of suing - so Doctor's have to indemnify themselves.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, June 5, 2019, 17:02:27
Don’t think I’d fancy being given a bed bath by the snarling harpy of a nurse giving that fella grief for supporting Trump.

Fucking witch.
she's the kinder socialist type. They even beat an OAP down to the ground. Lovely people those commies


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, June 5, 2019, 17:07:20
Genuine question, until Brexit is sorted what can Labour do? They wouldn't get a majority in another election, seems like all they can do is shout about how shit the tories are until the tide turns in their favour.
Get rid of Corbyn and make the tide turn in their favour. He's a total dickhead and unelectable. In fact actually get someone who can lead not dither and let his party decide different policies in front of the camera.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Balthazar Impresario on Wednesday, June 5, 2019, 17:28:57
a) Get off the fence and provide a clear answer as to what they think we should do
b) Stop navel-gazing as hostage to Corbyn's student posturings from 40-odd years ago
c) Generally act like a grown-up political party

A) other than brexit, they do provide answers to prevent more Tory laws giving the working class a kick in
B) Corbyn is a useless politician, but is liked by working  classes. Admittedly his dithering on Brexit has fucked this up slightly
C) both main parties have been child like my whole adult life, hence why I vote Green


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Balthazar Impresario on Wednesday, June 5, 2019, 17:34:43
Get rid of Corbyn and make the tide turn in their favour. He's a total dickhead and unelectable. In fact actually get someone who can lead not dither and let his party decide different policies in front of the camera.

They tried and failed due to his popularity at the time with voters, unsure if Labour can try again now Corbyn has fucked up the Brexit stance?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, June 5, 2019, 19:56:12
Quote from: Balthazar Impresario link=topic=55431.msg1499422#msg1499422 date=15597job 55737
A) other than brexit, they do provide answers to prevent more Tory laws giving the working class a kick in.
Like buying their council houses and reducing immigration to improve job opps and increase pay.
B) Corbyn is a useless politician, but is liked by working  classes. Admittedly his dithering on Brexit has fucked this up slightly.
Corbyn knows nothing about being working class he's never had a job outside of politics.He can't nationalise a fucking thing while we're in the eu. No state ownership remember,
C) both main parties have been child like my whole adult life, hence why I vote Green
The green party are another communist front party they want the limo while you ride the bike.
Glad I out that straight for you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, June 5, 2019, 19:58:41
Why not let the remoaners pay and the leavers get off without deduction.

Britain’s bill is projected to skyrocket from £12.6 billion this year to £13.6 billion in 2020, according to official draft European Commission figures. The figures unveiled by high-ranking Commission officials are for its draft 2020 budget proposals. They show Britain's total national contribution rising dramatically, even after the £4.7bn rebate has been deducted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, June 5, 2019, 21:42:07
About 1/3 the amount spend on debt interest alone.

So, if you had an area of Government you'd want fixed, which would be first on the list?

A better question you might want to consider is "what did the Roman's ever do for us? - what is the net benefit of being in the EU - so, we get a rebate, plus we get actual spending in the UK from EU funds.  On top of that we have pretty much zero trade barriers and not tariff's to pay - creating opportunities in import and export markets.  Add on top areas of Regulation that some would argue have benefited the UK - minimum wage, maximum working hours etc.  I appreciate that last one may not be a benefit some would be happy with, but MOST are.

Then you take the deficit - the cost to be a member, the fact you have to enable free movement of people (I include this because enough people in the UK consider this to be a downside, regardless of my own personal view), regulations in areas that people don't see as a benefit (no bendy banana's please), big areas of concern such as the CAP (whatever the good intentions of this, protecting food sources, it clearly went bad quite quickly is probably the single biggest rod to poke the EU with when it comes to corruption/waste).

Throwing around a headline number advances discussion little.

Anyway, we'll soon be spending that money on a USA Healthcare system, no?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, June 6, 2019, 00:38:57
About 1/3 the amount spend on debt interest alone.

So, if you had an area of Government you'd want fixed, which would be first on the list?

A better question you might want to consider is "what did the Roman's ever do for us? - what is the net benefit of being in the EU - so, we get a rebate, plus we get actual spending in the UK from EU funds.  On top of that we have pretty much zero trade barriers and not tariff's to pay - creating opportunities in import and export markets.  Add on top areas of Regulation that some would argue have benefited the UK - minimum wage, maximum working hours etc.  I appreciate that last one may not be a benefit some would be happy with, but MOST are.

Then you take the deficit - the cost to be a member, the fact you have to enable free movement of people (I include this because enough people in the UK consider this to be a downside, regardless of my own personal view), regulations in areas that people don't see as a benefit (no bendy banana's please), big areas of concern such as the CAP (whatever the good intentions of this, protecting food sources, it clearly went bad quite quickly is probably the single biggest rod to poke the EU with when it comes to corruption/waste).

Throwing around a headline number advances discussion little.

Anyway, we'll soon be spending that money on a USA Healthcare system, no?
Finished that post with ptoject fear and forgot bleached chicken.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, June 6, 2019, 08:25:13
About 1/3 the amount spend on debt interest alone.

So, if you had an area of Government you'd want fixed, which would be first on the list?

A better question you might want to consider is "what did the Roman's ever do for us? - what is the net benefit of being in the EU - so, we get a rebate, plus we get actual spending in the UK from EU funds.  On top of that we have pretty much zero trade barriers and not tariff's to pay - creating opportunities in import and export markets.  Add on top areas of Regulation that some would argue have benefited the UK - minimum wage, maximum working hours etc.  I appreciate that last one may not be a benefit some would be happy with, but MOST are.

Then you take the deficit - the cost to be a member, the fact you have to enable free movement of people (I include this because enough people in the UK consider this to be a downside, regardless of my own personal view), regulations in areas that people don't see as a benefit (no bendy banana's please), big areas of concern such as the CAP (whatever the good intentions of this, protecting food sources, it clearly went bad quite quickly is probably the single biggest rod to poke the EU with when it comes to corruption/waste).

Throwing around a headline number advances discussion little.

Anyway, we'll soon be spending that money on a USA Healthcare system, no?

Little point in asking questions of our resident Brexiteers that require a sensible answer, it's been 3 years now since the Ref and I'm still waiting to hear in what way we will benefit especially from no deal Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 6, 2019, 08:43:03
Good to see our resident Russian bot still hasn't worked out how to use the quote function. Back to GRU HQ for an upgrade.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, June 6, 2019, 08:52:27
Or worked how to provide a proper answer, based on facts, to a question as opposed to using media soundbites


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 6, 2019, 08:54:29
Or worked how to provide a proper answer, based on facts, to a question as opposed to using media soundbites
That's all the algorithm is programmed to do. Don't blame the bot, blame the programmers


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, June 6, 2019, 09:01:18
Good to see our resident Russian bot still hasn't worked out how to use the quote function. Back to GRU HQ for an upgrade.

I questioned this before. He does it on purpose apparently.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, June 6, 2019, 09:08:39
His quoting is Mr Whippytastic


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 6, 2019, 09:13:45
I questioned this before. He does it on purpose apparently.
To deliberately render his replies even more incomprehensible? Or just "Yeah, meant to do that"?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, June 6, 2019, 09:21:13
To deliberately render his replies even more incomprehensible? Or just "Yeah, meant to do that"?

I think its because he's a wank Clarke but who the fuck knows with him.

Why does s pa tul a change to Clarke?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, June 6, 2019, 09:23:28
Or worked how to provide a proper answer, based on facts, to a question as opposed to using media soundbites

I don't think he does answer, I think he reacts. It's as though it's more a response to stimuli for him.

Anyway, that's about as much attention I'm going to give him for now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, June 6, 2019, 10:15:04
About 1/3 the amount spend on debt interest alone.

So, if you had an area of Government you'd want fixed, which would be first on the list?

A better question you might want to consider is "what did the Roman's ever do for us? - what is the net benefit of being in the EU - so, we get a rebate, plus we get actual spending in the UK from EU funds.  On top of that we have pretty much zero trade barriers and not tariff's to pay - creating opportunities in import and export markets.  Add on top areas of Regulation that some would argue have benefited the UK - minimum wage, maximum working hours etc.  I appreciate that last one may not be a benefit some would be happy with, but MOST are.

Then you take the deficit - the cost to be a member, the fact you have to enable free movement of people (I include this because enough people in the UK consider this to be a downside, regardless of my own personal view), regulations in areas that people don't see as a benefit (no bendy banana's please), big areas of concern such as the CAP (whatever the good intentions of this, protecting food sources, it clearly went bad quite quickly is probably the single biggest rod to poke the EU with when it comes to corruption/waste).

Throwing around a headline number advances discussion little.

Anyway, we'll soon be spending that money on a USA Healthcare system, no?

Another rarely mention benefit of our EU membership is that, whilst a member, we are at the very forefront of the biggest and most powerful multilateral economic sanctions program in the world. This discounts, of course, the UN, which is multilateral too, but with Russia - like us - sat on the security council as permanent members, and having the right of veto over any UN applied sanctions, then it isn't truly international. It also discounts the US, but they are a special case given the US Dollar is used everywhere across the world, and their program isn't multilateral anyway.

The EU have applied economically painful sectoral sanctions against Russia for their annexing of Crimea. Undermining the EU's sanctions regime is an obvious reason why Russia would be keen for Brexit to happen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 6, 2019, 10:19:57
This guy seemed to have a pretty correct prediction 3 years ago on the BBC, and obviously he cannot be contradicted as he is from WTO (good) and not EU (bad)!

https://twitter.com/brexitjoke/status/1135487494932312065


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 6, 2019, 10:46:03
This guy seemed to have a pretty correct prediction 3 years ago on the BBC, and obviously he cannot be contradicted as he is from WTO (good) and not EU (bad)!

https://twitter.com/brexitjoke/status/1135487494932312065
Ah, but he's an expert. Can't trust the experts. They actually know what they're talking about. Better leave it to the "make it up as you go along" amateurs like Gove, Johnson and Farage. Or the "shouty blokes on social media" who all know exactly what to do. But don't have any answers


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, June 7, 2019, 05:55:01
Brexit Party juggernaut hits a bump in the road as Brexitty Peterborough returns another Labour MP.  Sadly, Corbyn will use this to justify continuing with his policy of obfuscation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, June 7, 2019, 06:31:19
Brexit Party juggernaut hits a bump in the road as Brexitty Peterborough returns another Labour MP.  Sadly, Corbyn will use this to justify continuing with his policy of obfuscation.

I called right last night discussing the result watching the England game with my mate. Kind of did a Smeeton in a way. I said Labour narrowly or Brexit Party would smash it. Be very interested how the result would play out in a GE nationally.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, June 7, 2019, 06:36:05
Brexit Party juggernaut hits a bump in the road as Brexitty Peterborough returns another Labour MP.  Sadly, Corbyn will use this to justify continuing with his policy of obfuscation.
considering the party has been going 8 weeks and doesn't have the infrastructure of the main parties - they're doing alright. They will be disappointed not to have won but they did well. Will need bit more time before we know where its going. Labour will be very relieved.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, June 7, 2019, 08:07:26
I think it illustrates very clearly that tactical voting is getting much more important now.  The Tories have sussed that the only way they can survive now is by aping the Brexit Party.  Many MPs now threatened with deselection if they fail to back a hard/WTO Brexit...which would have been unthinkable even 3 yrs ago.  But it also raises the prospect of the Tories and the Brexit Party splitting the Leave vote in future elections and allowing the more Remain-friendly parties to come through the middle.  The clamour to end FPTP will only grow.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 7, 2019, 08:20:38
I called right last night discussing the result watching the England game with my mate. Kind of did a Smeeton in a way. I said Labour narrowly or Brexit Party would smash it. Be very interested how the result would play out in a GE nationally.

You should have had a bet on it, I had a look online on Tuesday and BXP were 1/8 to win, didn't bother checking any others as the bookies seemed so sure.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 7, 2019, 08:25:40
considering the party has been going 8 weeks and doesn't have the infrastructure of the main parties - they're doing alright. They will be disappointed not to have won but they did well. Will need bit more time before we know where its going. Labour will be very relieved.

They did OK, although the figures only really support them taking votes off the Tories and they will need to do a hell of a lot more than that as splitting the further right vote is only going to get them so far. The big step is whether they are actually going to become a party and not just a personal ego trip for Farage as the scrutiny will increase ten fold then in terms of funding etc.

I think it illustrates very clearly that tactical voting is getting much more important now.  The Tories have sussed that the only way they can survive now is by aping the Brexit Party.  Many MPs now threatened with deselection if they fail to back a hard/WTO Brexit...which would have been unthinkable even 3 yrs ago.  But it also raises the prospect of the Tories and the Brexit Party splitting the Leave vote in future elections and allowing the more Remain-friendly parties to come through the middle.  The clamour to end FPTP will only grow.

I know from the groups that I follow that there were a hell of a lot of Lib Dems and Greens who held their noses and voted Labour just to keep Farage out, the problem is in terms of tactical voting that much of the Labour faithful are incapable of looking at anyone other than the messiah so I fear in other marginals where Labour are not the second party the favour is unlikely to be repaid.

Be interested to see how many Lib Dem and Green voters are expelled from their parties for their votes?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 7, 2019, 08:26:02
considering the party has been going 8 weeks and doesn't have the infrastructure of the main parties - they're doing alright. They will be disappointed not to have won but they did well. Will need bit more time before we know where its going. Labour will be very relieved.
Equally, if they can't win that with all the momentum they had, the media hype, against a flailing party with a weak candidate replacing a jailbird, in a very strongly Brexit area, doesn't bode well for the General Election does it. Maybe coming up with some actual policies or allowing people to join like a normal political party might help, but then it would run the risk of not being Nigel's vanity project any more. TBF I don't think he wants to win power, he knows damn well they couldn't run a government, it's much easier to act as a protest group on the sidelines. Bit like Corbyn, in fact.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, June 7, 2019, 08:38:04
 Farage made this about democracy, so it's good that the right have been halted in their tracks... for now.  Well done to all those, who put in the effort to defeat the politics of hatred.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 7, 2019, 08:40:25
Farage made this about democracy
His kind of democracy though. One where a political party has no members so can't hold the Dear Leader to account. Or do inconvenient things like ask to have more policies than snorting about Brexit

Nice to see Farage sneaking out of the count by the back door before the result was announced, like convicted hooligan, wife-beater, drug dealer and fraudster Yaxley-Lennon (aka Tommy R) at the Euros, seems to be a common theme with far-right losers


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, June 7, 2019, 09:06:05
Equally, if they can't win that with all the momentum they had, the media hype, against a flailing party with a weak candidate replacing a jailbird, in a very strongly Brexit area, doesn't bode well for the General Election does it. Maybe coming up with some actual policies or allowing people to join like a normal political party might help, but then it would run the risk of not being Nigel's vanity project any more. TBF I don't think he wants to win power, he knows damn well they couldn't run a government, it's much easier to act as a protest group on the sidelines. Bit like Corbyn, in fact.

Agree with all of this.

I thought Brexit would walk it.  It was perfectly set up for them.

Good result.

All this equating of The Brexit Party to Nazi Germany on social media etc.is stupid and insulting but they are an unpleasant bunch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, June 7, 2019, 09:12:04
Over 60% of Peterborough voted Brexit. Either the Brexit party failed to get those people to vote, or they changed their mind, or they just don't care much.

That labour increased their majority is quite a surprise.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, June 7, 2019, 09:19:51
Nigel really isn't very good at this Parliamentary Election business is he, another failure to add to his long list.

He's good at getting a protest vote in council/euro elections but that's all he will get, a protest vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, June 7, 2019, 09:24:52
Over 60% of Peterborough voted Brexit. Either the Brexit party failed to get those people to vote, or they changed their mind, or they just don't care much.

That labour increased their majority is quite a surprise.

There are quite a lot of similarities between Peterborough and Swindon.  Both grew with the railways, both grew with post war London overspill, both lost traditional industries to become dependent on services and distribution, relatively lowly paid.

Neither has a uni.... both have a population of about 200,000, of which 82% in Posh's case and 83% in Swindon identify as white British.  Both have lower league FC's of which Peterborough's is presently doing better.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 7, 2019, 09:29:34


Neither has a uni....

Apart from the Anglia Ruskin University Peterborough Campus?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Friday, June 7, 2019, 09:32:39
....and the Oxford Brookes campus in Swindon but the point remains valid....neither are 'university towns'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 7, 2019, 09:34:22

All this equating of The Brexit Party to Nazi Germany on social media etc.is stupid and insulting but they are an unpleasant bunch.

In principle I wouldn't disagree with you.

However as a student of the rise of Nazism there actually are a fair few similarities between what the Nazi's were up to in the 20's and early 30's and Farage and his supporters methods and outcomes (it all follows the fairly well know chronology of the rise of fascism the most commonly quoted being that shown in the US Holocaust Museum's 'Signs of fascism'), contrary to popular belief (and not aimed at you as its a generalisation which has been doing my box in from Farage supporters (of which I am not accusing you of being) all over social media) the Nazi's didn't just suddenly appear and start burning books and sending Jews off to camps.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, June 7, 2019, 09:48:44
There are quite a lot of similarities between Peterborough and Swindon.  Both grew with the railways, both grew with post war London overspill, both lost traditional industries to become dependent on services and distribution, relatively lowly paid.

Neither has a uni.... both have a population of about 200,000, of which 82% in Posh's case and 83% in Swindon identify as white British.  Both have lower league FC's of which Peterborough's is presently doing better.

You remind me of the piece my friend Bob did in 'The 69er' fanzine at the start of the 1995-96 on each of opposition teams in Division Three, travel tips, where to drink etc. - given that it was a few years since we'd been in the lower leagues at that point.  And his entry for Peterborough started 'Peterborough is basically Swindon with a cathedral.'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 7, 2019, 09:54:57
Nigel really isn't very good at this Parliamentary Election business is he, another failure to add to his long list.

He's good at getting a protest vote in council/euro elections but that's all he will get, a protest vote.
But it may be that's all he wants. He knows he will get found out if he's ever asked to actually run anything, far better to stand on the sidelines and shout "Betrayal". That goes double if you look at the collection of nomarks and wierdos he's put together as his candidates - which cabinet post would you have the gay-bashing pensioner in or the ex-Revolutionary Communist who used to support IRA bombings (and has never backtracked on her support for the Warrington bombing?) and now supports Gary Glitter's "right" to be a paedo? Or the Peterborough campaign manager who they quietly disposed of as the voters went to the polls yesterday when he was exposed as a former BNP organiser? Of  a piece with their first chair who resigned when her racist anti-Muslim tweets were published, I suppose. Not an inspiring bunch to run the country, but they're not supposed to be - they're a protest vote to act as counters in Nigel's latest personal vanity project


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, June 7, 2019, 09:58:58
You remind me of the piece my friend Bob did in 'The 69er' fanzine at the start of the 1995-96 on each of opposition teams in Division Three, travel tips, where to drink etc. - given that it was a few years since we'd been in the lower leagues at that point.  And his entry for Peterborough started 'Peterborough is basically Swindon with a cathedral.'

Posh like us also got relegated for illegal payments.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, June 7, 2019, 10:02:07
I think he's playing a smart game.  His aim isn't to run the country.  It's to coerce the Tories in to shifting towards a harder form of Brexit (just as he coerced them in to holding the referendum in the first place in 2016.)  And on present showing, he's doing just that.  Farage is the puppet master, pulling the Tories' strings.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 7, 2019, 10:13:04
Setting aside the travails of Nigel for a second what is going on in the Tory leadership campaign, in the aspiration of the contenders to better appeal to the ERG and to try and retain the far right vote from Nige this weeks main talking point seems to be the idea of prorogation, if my interpretation is correct essentially dismissing parliament so that the government can force through no-deal.

Now its not being reported as such, but if this were happening in a tin pot banana republic, would we not be referring to its as what it basically is, at attempted coup. A government without a majority would be dismissing the democratically-elected assembly in order to implement an extreme policy measure for which it has no real mandate.

At what stage are we going to wake up?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 7, 2019, 10:25:15
Setting aside the travails of Nigel for a second what is going on in the Tory leadership campaign, in the aspiration of the contenders to better appeal to the ERG and to try and retain the far right vote from Nige this weeks main talking point seems to be the idea of prorogation, if my interpretation is correct essentially dismissing parliament so that the government can force through no-deal.

Now its not being reported as such, but if this were happening in a tin pot banana republic, would we not be referring to its as what it basically is, at attempted coup. A government without a majority would be dismissing the democratically-elected assembly in order to implement an extreme policy measure for which it has no real mandate.

At what stage are we going to wake up?
It's all about "taking back control" and "asserting the sovereignty of parliament" in the name of democracy remember? Signposts to authoritarianism:
1) Attack the free press: check
2) Attack the independent judiciary:  check (remember the Mail's infamous "Enemies of the people" front page?)
3) Undermine the basic institutions of representative democracy: check (Daily Mail front page again, Raab threatening to prorogue parliament, millions of Facebook posts about "traitors" in parliament)

We live in dangerous times.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, June 7, 2019, 11:42:37
Apart from the Anglia Ruskin University Peterborough Campus?

Anglia Polytechnic then ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Friday, June 7, 2019, 11:45:42
Over 60% of Peterborough voted Brexit. Either the Brexit party failed to get those people to vote, or they changed their mind, or they just don't care much.
It's pretty revealing that in the two votes since the referendum - in 2017 and this one - Labour has won both.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Friday, June 7, 2019, 11:52:51
But it may be that's all he wants. He knows he will get found out if he's ever asked to actually run anything, far better to stand on the sidelines and shout "Betrayal".
Some say he doesn't even want Brexit....

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/16/nigel-farage-truth-honesty-brexit-party (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/16/nigel-farage-truth-honesty-brexit-party)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 7, 2019, 11:58:06
Some say he doesn't even want Brexit....

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/16/nigel-farage-truth-honesty-brexit-party (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/16/nigel-farage-truth-honesty-brexit-party)
Wouldn't be surprised, as long as Brexit doesn't happen, he can carry on shouting "Betrayal" and not having to actually face up to the consequences. And his Russian backers will be happy either way so long as the situation continues to destabilise both Britain and the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 7, 2019, 12:01:20
Wouldn't be surprised, as long as Brexit doesn't happen, he can carry on shouting "Betrayal" and not having to actually face up to the consequences. And his Russian backers will be happy either way so long as the situation continues to destabilise both Britain and the EU.

Thing is he needs to be careful or Banks is going to want to move another kept man into the apartment, you don't keep a mistress and not get what you want!

I see that in other news Waxy-Lemon has deserted politics temporarily and gone back to his first love, being filmed in Portugal last night thumping a fellow England fan to the ground from behind, what a hard man!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, June 7, 2019, 14:07:19

We live in dangerous times.

If the end result is taking up arms and shooting some fascists then that can only be a good thing?
If a few hedge fund managers are also lost through collateral damage then, unfortunate, but ultimately all well and good.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Up on Friday, June 7, 2019, 16:47:09
I RESIGN FROM THIS FORUM!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, June 7, 2019, 16:53:14
lolz. wut?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, June 7, 2019, 16:58:55
Hell be back, with greater bullshit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, June 7, 2019, 17:01:09
Don’t you normally explain why you resign?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 7, 2019, 17:33:41
Flounce! He's gone to picket Barry's house in his Union Jack underpants


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, June 7, 2019, 17:47:27
It's obvious Cambridge have offered him more than FH and the gang here can, that's what the data tells you, FH OUT!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, June 7, 2019, 17:50:36
If the end result is taking up arms and shooting some fascists then that can only be a good thing?
If a few hedge fund managers are also lost through collateral damage then, unfortunate, but ultimately all well and good.

You forgot about shooting some Army types, a few royals (like they did in russia men women and children). Some rich people they're the root of all evil and anyone the mob doesn't like, old people, educated types, etc. its the start of your own cultural revolution. Power to the people. love and peace.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, June 7, 2019, 18:02:00


You only have to see the public display of venom and bile from the lefty mobs and add in a pinch of behind the scenes momentum shit stirring. Right wing facisism my arse. I’ll give the left credit where it is due they are relentless in their persuit of power and demonisation of anyone and anything that stands in their way shall be obliterated, shouted down and attacked verbally and if necessary violently. Done in such a way that you’d think butter wouldn’t melt in their mouths.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 7, 2019, 18:28:31
It's obvious Cambridge have offered him more than FH and the gang here can, that's what the data tells you, FH OUT!
:D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, June 7, 2019, 18:32:29
It was a tactical decision.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pookemon on Friday, June 7, 2019, 18:34:10
you’d think butter wouldn’t melt in their mouths.


How dare you suggest that the lefty mob would allow animal products into their mouths in the first place.
Fascist!!  ;D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, June 7, 2019, 18:38:15
I RESIGN FROM THIS FORUM!

Noooo. Hopefully you'll be back.
Combe Sideways next time maybe?

Had a look at your recent photo from Brussels and can understand the burden of a deformity that even John Merrick would have struggled with.
A lot of people would have just chosen to put the under crackers over their head, myself included. So I admire your bravery.

Combe back soon. :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, June 7, 2019, 18:53:21

Reply to SRK anti quote strategy.


Bumping off recalcitrant Royals, I don't have a problem with.
The French & Russians had the right idea as far as that was concerned.
We have history there as well.

My family was carted off to Siberia by Fascists.
They just happened to be wearing hammer & sickle insignia at the time.

There are a couple of prime candidates for the most murderous fucker of the 20th century award.

Here in the 21st century nothing has changed, apart from the candidates being potential rather than actual. But give it time.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, June 7, 2019, 20:13:09
I RESIGN FROM THIS FORUM!

I feel empty.  Bereft.  And will never now know whether my theory about his username being a play on the Combe Down district of Bath was true.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, June 7, 2019, 20:29:19
I feel empty.  Bereft.  And will never now know whether my theory about his username being a play on the Combe Down district of Bath was true.

Or a comb over hairstyle?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 7, 2019, 20:43:20
Classic: Trump is now attacking NASA, and backs up his argument by demonstrating his expertise in the area, trying to claim the Moon is part of Mars:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1137051097955102720

What a fucking moron.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, June 7, 2019, 20:49:31
I honestly think that is just down to him being terrible at explaining what he means.

SURELY he can't really think the moon is a part of Mars? That just too stupid... even for him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 7, 2019, 20:54:33
I honestly think that is just down to him being terrible at explaining what he means.

SURELY he can't really think the moon is a part of Mars? That just too stupid... even for him.
He thinks windmills cause cancer:

https://news.sky.com/video/trump-windmills-cause-cancer-11683235

Don't think there's such a thing as too stupid where Trump's concerned.

Apparently a month ago he was praising himself (again) because he was going to back a return to the Moon, now he's attacking NASA for trying to do so (whether or not it's part of Mars). Some speculation online that this is just one example of him contradicting himself, never mind the demonstrable facts, in a short space of time, and is being put forward as part of growing evidence that he is demonstrating increasing signs of age-related dementia. But who knows? Personally I think he's just a fucking idiot


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, June 7, 2019, 21:03:45
I am also firmly of the opinion that he's a fucking idiot.

But THAT stupid. Really?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, June 7, 2019, 21:09:06
Having said that... I do have a friend that refuses to believe me that a ton of bricks weighs the same as a ton of feathers. They are out there.

But in his position?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 7, 2019, 21:58:49
Bloomberg have quite a good article on this, explaining how he is berating NASA for implementing the policy he told them to implement and launched with considerable fanfare in December, blew his own trumpet about in March and was still bigging himself up for on his visit to Japan a week or so ago. So yes, he pretty much is that stupid, he is notorious for not being able to pay attention in briefings, can't take in any paper that goes over one side of A4, basically would shame a goldfish for attention span
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-07/trump-chides-nasa-for-focus-on-moon-after-focusing-nasa-on-moon


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Friday, June 7, 2019, 21:59:35
Donny is strange but Pence is a heartbeat away


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, June 7, 2019, 22:50:16
Pence is terrifying.

His church literally wants to bring about the end of the world. I am not exaggerating.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, June 8, 2019, 07:58:45
  Quite amusing to hear Gove admitting to snorting Charlie, apparently Johnson has previously confessed in a not inhaling sort of way. Does it matter?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, June 8, 2019, 08:00:37
And that Rory fella has more than a touch of Jeremy Thorpeness


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, June 8, 2019, 08:28:43
  Quite amusing to hear Gove admitting to snorting Charlie, apparently Johnson has previously confessed in a not inhaling sort of way. Does it matter?
No way.  They were young.  It's not as if they ever ran through a field of wheat, is it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, June 8, 2019, 08:46:42
  Quite amusing to hear Gove admitting to snorting Charlie, apparently Johnson has previously confessed in a not inhaling sort of way. Does it matter?
Morally? Not really. Practically? Won't matter in the MPs' vote, might lose him some votes from the membership.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, June 8, 2019, 08:49:20
No way.  They were young.  It's not as if they ever ran through a field of wheat, is it?

I'm not so sure... on the other hand we have The Home Secretary, criticising middle class users like Gove and Johnson, for fuelling gang related knife crime....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/02/sajid-javid-pledges-to-get-tough-on-middle-class-cocaine-users


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, June 8, 2019, 09:48:38
Interesting take. 

I was flippantly going to say that at least Rory Stewart cut out the middle man on his Afghan travels.

However, from a little knowledge of Colombia, there is a link between relatively wealthy foreigners' buying marijuana for personal consumption locally in the 70s and the murderous industrialisation of the cocaine business that gradually evolved.

Not sure if it is possible to pass through life with "clean hands".  Personally I wouldn't like the smugness of anyone who claimed to have done so.

I think the candidates concerned may have been wise to beat the red tops to a non-story.





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, June 8, 2019, 12:29:41
I think the candidates concerned may have been wise to beat the red tops to a non-story.
Gove only came clean because it was going to be revealed in a book that is being serialised in the Mail. They gave him a choice of giving them an exclusive and telling his side or having them out him as "Coke Fiend Gove"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, June 8, 2019, 18:29:52
 Leadsom has fessed up to smoking weed..... reefer madness.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, June 8, 2019, 19:06:25
Leadsom has fessed up to smoking weed..... reefer madness.
Fuck off, she's never smoked weed. Sacrificed a few kids to the Dark Satanic Lords, maybe


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, June 8, 2019, 20:13:21
Fuck off, she's never smoked weed. Sacrificed a few kids to the Dark Satanic Lords, maybe

Dark Satanic Lords no less, Marx, lenin, Mao, Trotsky, Hitler and Stalin.
She prefers the modern ones, too those old discredited biblical ones.
They've racked a up a bigger death count.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, June 8, 2019, 20:21:35
Dark Satanic Lords no less, Marx, lenin, Mao, Trotsky, Hitler and Stalin.
She prefers the modern ones, too those old discredited biblical ones.
They've racked a up a bigger death count.
Don't think I'm going out on a limb in suggesting that Andrea Leadsom probably isn't a big Stalinist, Maoist or Trot. But I think we've found someone else with a drug habit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, June 8, 2019, 20:49:08
Don't think I'm going out on a limb in suggesting that Andrea Leadsom probably isn't a big Stalinist, Maoist or Trot. But I think we've found someone else with a drug habit

I actually agree with you on this one.

I have always thought that a number of posters on here were or are on illegal substances judging by their postings.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 10, 2019, 16:08:18
Spot on...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRd9rMCM_MA&feature=player_embedded&fbclid=IwAR0nnrcoM7DIOy5gURvC53CrZR7SlM9XAjivOokDHPmlJ8URU1pAzi6h55U


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, June 10, 2019, 16:14:28
Spot on...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRd9rMCM_MA&feature=player_embedded&fbclid=IwAR0nnrcoM7DIOy5gURvC53CrZR7SlM9XAjivOokDHPmlJ8URU1pAzi6h55U

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 08:35:29
And yet, old rhyming slang is one of the main contenders for the "safe pair of hands" slot in the leadership race. Speaks volumes about the "quality" of the field, a collection of weirdos, nutters and no-marks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 08:46:44
And yet, old rhyming slang is one of the main contenders for the "safe pair of hands" slot in the leadership race. Speaks volumes about the "quality" of the field, a collection of weirdos, nutters and no-marks.

Buckland and Tomlinson are both supporting Johnson.... presumably think it will enhance their careers.  Tomlinson at least has always been a Brexiteer, so a measure of consistency... Buckland a remainer now wants a no deal Brexit in October, which all points to the local economy taking a hit, I guess he's eyeing up a nice fat tax cut and so fuck off to his constituents, they can pay for it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 09:06:43
Buckland a remainer now wants a no deal Brexit in October, which all points to the local economy taking a hit, I guess he's eyeing up a nice fat tax cut and so fuck off to his constituents, they can pay for it.
More likely he's just kissing whichever arse he thinks is most likely to give him a job. And a right fucking arse he's chosen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 09:14:59
Buckland and Tomlinson are both supporting Johnson.... presumably think it will enhance their careers.  Tomlinson at least has always been a Brexiteer, so a measure of consistency... Buckland a remainer now wants a no deal Brexit in October, which all points to the local economy taking a hit, I guess he's eyeing up a nice fat tax cut and so fuck off to his constituents, they can pay for it.

You are the gift that keeps on giving. Keep up the good work.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 09:16:27
More likely he's just kissing whichever arse he thinks is most likely to give him a job. And a right fucking arse he's chosen.

Of course, hopefully Buckland will soon be returning to his day job. I fail to see how he can have been elected on the Tory manifesto of a negotiated withdrawal from the EU, and now back no deal, without it being put to the electorate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 10:06:18
I can see that selfishness and ambition might cause Tory MPs to support Johnson.  I cannot get inside the culture of Tory Party members (and I guess many others) around the country who see him as Saviour.  But I guess unless we recognize and try to understand it, as with Trump (and Farage), we as a country will find it virtually impossible to move on.  I blame reality TV....everything is just a game.  But, as the editor of the New Statesman wrote this week, a man who may have caused laughs in the past is no longer funny.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 10:42:53
I can see that selfishness and ambition might cause Tory MPs to support Johnson.  I cannot get inside the culture of Tory Party members (and I guess many others) around the country who see him as Saviour.  But I guess unless we recognize and try to understand it, as with Trump (and Farage), we as a country will find it virtually impossible to move on.  I blame reality TV....everything is just a game.  But, as the editor of the New Statesman wrote this week, a man who may have caused laughs in the past is no longer funny.

It isn't exactly a stellar field.... when May got the gig, at least she looked like a safe pair of hands, seemed to have a sense of duty, and a clean background.

However what that meant was she lacked emotional intelligence, the sort of thing shown by her reaction to the Grenfell fire.

The days of stiff upper lip have passed, more's the pity as far as I'm concerned, but now its got to be touchy feely, even if you're just acting.....this is the sort of thing required, a master class.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3qinDH_3HE

I guess, some think Johnson is a good enough actor to provide that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 11:17:48
Our Next PM? https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1138176573121716224


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 12:50:17
It isn't exactly a stellar field.... when May got the gig, at least she looked like a safe pair of hands, seemed to have a sense of duty, and a clean background.

However what that meant was she lacked emotional intelligence, the sort of thing shown by her reaction to the Grenfell fire.

The days of stiff upper lip have passed, more's the pity as far as I'm concerned
May didn't have a stiff upper lip, though, the waterworks came when she was losing her job. She just didn't give a fuck about the victims of her own and her party's policies, not just Grenfell but austerity, Windrush and the "hostile enviroment" too (the civil servant in charge of her "Hostile Environment" policy that led to Windrush was recently honoured in the Queen's Birthday Honours, at May's recommendation). There's a difference between a stiff upper lip and a heart of stone


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 13:29:01
May didn't have a stiff upper lip, though, the waterworks came when she was losing her job. She just didn't give a fuck about the victims of her own and her party's policies, not just Grenfell but austerity, Windrush and the "hostile enviroment" too (the civil servant in charge of her "Hostile Environment" policy that led to Windrush was recently honoured in the Queen's Birthday Honours, at May's recommendation). There's a difference between a stiff upper lip and a heart of stone

I don't suppose you heard her reading the letter at the D Day commemoration, it was a lovely moving letter a soldier wrote to his wife and kids just before he set out, she delivered it with all the emotion of a robot reading a gas bill!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 13:29:24
This seems a fairly good and quick summary of where we are (note where Brexit Party is mentioned you could also substitute the vast majority of the candidates for the Tory leadership!)

https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1137689381639204865


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 15:45:35
So apparently teachers who are caught using drugs should be banned from their chosen profession for life. Whereas people who just want to run the country, well, you can't hang a guy for one (repeated) mistake can you?

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/michael-gove-banned-four-teachers-for-cocaine-possession/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 11:02:15
Another candidate shows the depth of her knowledge....

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1138748219826028547


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 12:18:36
So apparently teachers who are caught using drugs should be banned from their chosen profession for life. Whereas people who just want to run the country, well, you can't hang a guy for one (repeated) mistake can you?

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/michael-gove-banned-four-teachers-for-cocaine-possession/

One of those teachers got caught buying £30k worth of coke...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 12:30:43
One of those teachers got caught buying £30k worth of coke...
And so probably served a jail term which would in itself merit a life time ban. But Gove established a principle that "middle-class drug use" was wrong, harmful and merited the severest consequences, jail and/or loss of livelihood. It was a principle he repeatedly enunciated in the newspaper columns he was writing as a journalist at the same period as he was himself gleefully snorting coke in his spare time and which he continued into his time as Education Secretary. He now wants us to forgive and forget his "indiscretions", despite not being prepared to do so himself to others. He's a hypocrite, pure and simple.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 13:13:10
I tell you what, you read below and realise in the vast majority of cases there is barely a fag paper between the candidates

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48496082

Interesting that the BBC had to come up with so many different ways of saying that the main problem is that the EU have stated that the WA is not up for renegotiation.

In the Johnson launch the most telling (and probably disturbing) thing was his exchange with Beth Rigby...

Beth Rigby: Why did you call Muslim women letterboxes?
Boris Johnson: British people want politicians to say what they mean.
Audience applauds.

In other news...

(https://scontent.fbrs1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/62453380_10157240976141753_8969253970300108800_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ht=scontent.fbrs1-2.fna&oh=3f91689ed177f6d91e79441ebfdfaa75&oe=5D8A1F07)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 13:15:26
In the Johnson launch the most telling (and probably disturbing) thing was his exchange with Beth Rigby...

Beth Rigby: Why did you call Muslim women letterboxes?
Boris Johnson: British people want politicians to say what they mean.
Audience applauds.
Seriously? Jesus, he really does intend to sink to the lowest common denominator to out-Farage Farage doesn't he?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 13:25:32
It's worth remembering what former Tory MP, and colleague of Boris Johnson, Matthew Parris, who's had chance to see him "work" close up as a journo, London mayor and Foreign Secretary has to say about him (and he's missed out here that he's already been sacked twice for lying, leaving aside the dozens of other times he's been shown to lie but faced no consequences for it):

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8131xhXYAEw7Sq.jpg:large)
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/let-me-assure-you-boris-johnson-will-fail-as-pm-hl7b6tkx5


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 14:30:40
It's worth remembering what former Tory MP, and colleague of Boris Johnson, Matthew Parris, who's had chance to see him "work" close up as a journo, London mayor and Foreign Secretary has to say about him (and he's missed out here that he's already been sacked twice for lying, leaving aside the dozens of other times he's been shown to lie but faced no consequences for it):

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8131xhXYAEw7Sq.jpg:large)
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/let-me-assure-you-boris-johnson-will-fail-as-pm-hl7b6tkx5

1) Makes him a suitable candidate then. Nice of you to endorse him.
2) Correct credentials to be a politician
3) Fit well in the Corbyn & McDonald Labour Party who’s motto is ‘deny, lie & smear’ oh and accuse anyone and everyone outside that of being a facist & racist.

Think that about covers it 😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 14:52:54
As a proud Tory, Legends-Lounge, who do you honestly want as next PM?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 15:27:28
As a proud Tory, Legends-Lounge, who do you honestly want as next PM?

I wouldn’t go so far as saying proud. Like all parties, say one thing do something else or grandstand the sound bites but slip stuff in under the radar. My personal choice is them rather than labour in a way it is a bit like following Swindon. If they are shit you can stop going if your party pisses you off you don’t vote. When things improve they get your patronage.

As to your question, I was going to tease you and give a Regesque reply but don’t have the time. In short the man or woman who goes back to the EU and says improve the deal and include a trade deal or we walk, as for the £39b think again until you address the deal. BTW rethink your threats and posturing over the Irish issue, you can put up a border if you like as we won’t. In short grow a pair and stand up for this country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 15:28:03
1) Makes him a suitable candidate then. Nice of you to endorse him.
2) Correct credentials to be a politician
3) Fit well in the Corbyn & McDonald Labour Party who’s motto is ‘deny, lie & smear’ oh and accuse anyone and everyone outside that of being a facist & racist.

Think that about covers it 😁
So as usual when confronted with evidence that X is a scumbag, your response is "Well what about Y?". It's not an answer and you know it. I assume from your deflection/lack of answer, you'd actually be happy with Johnson in charge then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 15:28:29
As to your question, I was going to tease you and give a Regesque reply but don’t have the time. In short the man or woman who goes back to the EU and says improve the deal and include a trade deal or we walk, as for the £39b think again until you address the deal. BTW rethink your threats and posturing over the Irish issue, you can put up a border if you like as we won’t. In short grow a pair and stand up for this country.
So who then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 15:36:56
So who then?

It's a tough question, to be fair.

It's like being asked "Which is your favourite sexually transmitted disease?"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 15:38:00
It's a tough question, to be fair.

It's like being asked "Which is your favourite sexually transmitted disease?"

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 15:41:10
It's a tough question, to be fair.

It's like being asked "Which is your favourite sexually transmitted disease?"
Indeed. But it was also a straight question, which as usual he ducked, by setting out a list of criteria which pretty much all the candidates fulfil, because they're all equally divorced from reality. The choice is between 10 or 11 different fantasists, just take your pick of what level of competence and shithousery you'd like with your fantasy promises.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 15:41:36

As to your question, I was going to tease you and give a Regesque reply but don’t have the time. In short the man or woman who goes back to the EU and says improve the deal and include a trade deal or we walk, as for the £39b think again until you address the deal. BTW rethink your threats and posturing over the Irish issue, you can put up a border if you like as we won’t. In short grow a pair and stand up for this country promise fairies that they know cannot be delivered but sound good to the nationalists, default on longstanding legal obligations and make the country an international pariah who will find it nigh impossible to do any trade deals and reintroduce terrorism to Northern Ireland.

Corrected for you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 15:46:34
Indeed. But it was also a straight question, which as usual he ducked, by setting out a list of criteria which pretty much all the candidates fulfil, because they're all equally divorced from reality. The choice is between 10 or 11 different fantasists, just take your pick of what level of competence and shithousery you'd like with your fantasy promises.

Chatting to a mate who's a member on Monday... there aren't many in Swindon, he'd like Harper on the basis he went to Headlands, and Regent's Circus College, before Oxford.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 15:49:39
Indeed. But it was also a straight question, which as usual he ducked, by setting out a list of criteria which pretty much all the candidates fulfil, because they're all equally divorced from reality. The choice is between 10 or 11 different fantasists, just take your pick of what level of competence and shithousery you'd like with your fantasy promises.

I am coming round to the idea that Johnson would probably be the best bet. Ok it would elevate our being a laughing stock from a European to worldwide audience, probably trash much of the economy, in the longer term facilitate Scottish independence and generally unleash a shit storm in NI, but the country is well and truly fucked already so why not go entirely balls in?

On the bright side it would probably destroy the Tories as a credible force fr a couple of generations and what with the sterling work Labour are doing to make themselves similarly broken hopefully bring about a seismic shift in politics.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 15:51:21
Chatting to a mate who's a member on Monday... there aren't many in Swindon, he'd like Harper on the basis he went to Headlands, and Regent's Circus College, before Oxford.
Jesus. What a way to choose the next PM. And this is the "thought process" of the 0.25% of the population who will decide which of the fantasists, nutters and charlatans gets to drive us off the edge of the cliff.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 15:52:47
Indeed. But it was also a straight question, which as usual he ducked, by setting out a list of criteria which pretty much all the candidates fulfil, because they're all equally divorced from reality. The choice is between 10 or 11 different fantasists, just take your pick of what level of competence and shithousery you'd like with your fantasy promises.

To be fair, Rory Stewart doesn't appear to be a fantasist in policy, just in anticipating he has any chance whatsoever.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 15:53:33
On the bright side it would probably destroy the Tories as a credible force fr a couple of generations and what with the sterling work Labour are doing to make themselves similarly broken hopefully bring about a seismic shift in politics.
That's about the only positive I can see coming out of this whole mess. Although I'm reminded that when you find yourself thinking "Well at least things can't get any worse" it usually means they are just about to. About the only way we could make this situation worse is by having a man with the proven track record of both incompetence and deceit of Johnson in charge.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 15:54:52
Government defeats cross-party bid to allow MPs to legislate to rule out no-deal
The government has won by 309 votes to 298 - a majority of 11.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 16:10:38
Government defeats cross-party bid to allow MPs to legislate to rule out no-deal
The government has won by 309 votes to 298 - a majority of 11.
Both sides keep going round and round in the same circles, to the same effect. What's that definition of insanity again?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 16:16:53
It's a tough question, to be fair.

It's like being asked "Which is your favourite sexually transmitted disease?"
In fact, Legends Lounge would himself make a good candidate for a politician, he shows a similar inability to answer a straight question with a straight answer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 17:16:27
I wouldn’t go so far as saying proud. Like all parties, say one thing do something else or grandstand the sound bites but slip stuff in under the radar. My personal choice is them rather than labour in a way it is a bit like following Swindon. If they are shit you can stop going if your party pisses you off you don’t vote. When things improve they get your patronage.

As to your question, I was going to tease you and give a Regesque reply but don’t have the time. In short the man or woman who goes back to the EU and says improve the deal and include a trade deal or we walk, as for the £39b think again until you address the deal. BTW rethink your threats and posturing over the Irish issue, you can put up a border if you like as we won’t. In short grow a pair and stand up for this country.

So, if we don't put a border up, everyone from the EU can just funnel through Rep of Ireland and make their way into the UK anyway?  You are literally advocating an open border with the world.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 17:23:52
So, if we don't put a border up, everyone from the EU can just funnel through Rep of Ireland and make their way into the UK anyway?  You are literally advocating an open border with the world.


They'd have to swim across the Irish sea first.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 18:35:29

They'd have to swim across the Irish sea first.

Northern Ireland isn't part of the UK then?  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 19:12:03
Northern Ireland isn't part of the UK then?  :hmmm:
:D Ooops, thought that was one of the hard right's "red lines" SRK? Time to get that algorithm reprogrammed again


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 19:14:18

They'd have to swim across the Irish sea first.

You really are a fucking hapless cock nodule.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 20:51:44
Rory Stewart all the way 😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 21:20:12
Rory Stewart all the way 😁

He does seem like the lesser of eleven evils.

We all know it’s going to be that cunt Boris though, don’t we? 😒


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 21:34:25
He does seem like the lesser of eleven evils.

We all know it’s going to be that cunt Boris though, don’t we? 😒

I had Corbynesque moment, Ester McVey.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 13, 2019, 08:47:29
So, if we don't put a border up, everyone from the EU can just funnel through Rep of Ireland and make their way into the UK anyway?  You are literally advocating an open border with the world.

I would likewise imagine that if they have any sense border controls in the French channel ports will get very lax after October 2019.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, June 13, 2019, 08:59:21
I would likewise imagine that if they have any sense border controls in the French channel ports will get very lax after October 2019.

That's how it is now! illegal immigrants get into southern europe and then travel straight though europe by any means,too the UK. After brexit they'll stop because the UK will have 60% unemployment, the worst recession in history and no food in the supermarkets. Once the brits are starving we'll all want to go to europe, couple that with being overun by breeding pairs of unicorns,its a drop off the cliff edge hard brexit armageddon. Goodbye and goodnight for the UK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, June 13, 2019, 09:01:25
Rory Stewart all the way 😁

The least shit ToryC


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 13, 2019, 09:03:56
Don't remember Theresa May crying for these guys, government have just done the usual in the aftermath of Grenfell: bit of hand-wringing in the immediate aftermath, then kick it into the long grass with an inquiry and ignore the overall massive structural problem (despite promising they'd take immediate action to deal with it), leaving thousands of people still at risk:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jun/13/this-building-has-no-sprinklers-grenfell-uniteds-12-storey-high-guerrilla-messages


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Thursday, June 13, 2019, 11:46:10
That's how it is now! illegal immigrants get into southern europe and then travel straight though europe by any means,too the UK. After brexit they'll stop because the UK will have 60% unemployment, the worst recession in history and no food in the supermarkets. Once the brits are starving we'll all want to go to europe, couple that with being overun by breeding pairs of unicorns,its a drop off the cliff edge hard brexit armageddon. Goodbye and goodnight for the UK.
Did/do they not teach English in your school?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, June 13, 2019, 12:06:06
Final seven of Gove, Hancock, Hunt, Javid, Johnson, Raab and Stewart (!).

Johnson won the first vote by miles.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 13, 2019, 12:10:34
Final seven of Gove, Hancock, Hunt, Javid, Johnson, Raab and Stewart (!).

Johnson won the first vote by miles.
Legends Lounge will be upset McVey has been eliminated. I wonder if he'll answer the question as to whether he'd be happy with Johnson as prime minister now?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, June 13, 2019, 12:14:34
If I was Boris [shudders], I think I'd admit to myself in private that becoming leader of the Tories 9 years in to a period of Tory government might not be the smartest of moves.  For a variety of reasons, this could well be one of the shortest premierships in political history.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 13, 2019, 14:17:30
More endorsements from people who know Boris Johnson well, this time Max Hastings, former editor of the Daily Telegraph who employed Johnson as a columnist after he'd been sacked by The Times for lying:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D85j115X4AAQByP.png)

Still like the look of him for Prime Minister, Legends Lounge?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 13, 2019, 16:20:06
Final seven of Gove, Hancock, Hunt, Javid, Johnson, Raab and Stewart (!).

Johnson won the first vote by miles.

Mr Fuck Business 114
Mr Fuck the NHS up: 43
Mr Get fucked on coke: 37
Mr What the fuck is Dover?: 27
Mr I'd deport my own fucking dad: 23
Mr Rubbish fucking app: 20
Mr Guy "centrists" would love to fuck: 19

Sadly eliminated....
Mrs Fuck parliament!: 11
Mr Who the fuck? 10
Mrs Fuck the disabled: 9


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, June 13, 2019, 16:24:08
More endorsements from people who know Boris Johnson well, this time Max Hastings, former editor of the Daily Telegraph who employed Johnson as a columnist after he'd been sacked by The Times for lying:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D85j115X4AAQByP.png)

Still like the look of him for Prime Minister, Legends Lounge?
Sounds just like The Donald


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Thursday, June 13, 2019, 16:26:29
Exactly...not sure who modelled himself on whom....but they are, after all, the best of friends.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 13, 2019, 16:26:58
Sounds just like The Donald
Bit brighter, much lazier #PoundShopTrump


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, June 13, 2019, 19:23:01
More endorsements from people who know Boris Johnson well, this time Max Hastings, former editor of the Daily Telegraph who employed Johnson as a columnist after he'd been sacked by The Times for lying:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D85j115X4AAQByP.png)

Still like the look of him for Prime Minister, Legends Lounge?

And that's coming from someone who regularly writes really odious columns in the Daily Mail!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sir windon on Thursday, June 13, 2019, 19:40:37
Only just noticed that one of today’s losing candidates, Mark Harper has Swindonian roots. Funny how the two leading contenders mean it could be an Eton v Charterhouse face-off. Headlands doesn’t fit the bill, eh?!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, June 13, 2019, 20:10:55
Only just noticed that one of today’s losing candidates, Mark Harper has Swindonian roots. Funny how the two leading contenders mean it could be an Eton v Charterhouse face-off. Headlands doesn’t fit the bill, eh?!

Clearly not, next.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 14, 2019, 09:18:04
Bit brighter, much lazier #PoundShopTrump

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/06/12/boris-johnson-is-britains-donald-trump-complete-with-breitbarts-bannon-and-russia-cover-up/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 14, 2019, 09:33:43
If ship-jumping ever makes it as an Olympic Sport, Chuka Ummuna is nailed on for a GB gold


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, June 14, 2019, 11:35:40
If ship-jumping ever makes it as an Olympic Sport, Chuka Ummuna is nailed on for a GB gold

You mean that doyen of socialism chukkas yermoney? 🤣🤣🤣

I’ll save you the time, of course there are more of his kind in the baby eating Tory/Brexit party. You can sit down now and breath 😉


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 14, 2019, 12:21:18
You mean that doyen of socialism chukkas yermoney? 🤣🤣🤣
Given he's left the Labour Party, he probably isn't a doyen of socialism is he?
I’ll save you the time, of course there are more of his kind in the baby eating Tory/Brexit party. You can sit down now and breath 😉
Don't worry, it's you that does the whatabouterry. I'll leave that to you.

In the meantime, are you going to answer the question as to whether you'd be happy to have Johnson as prime minister? Simple question.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, June 14, 2019, 12:28:14
Given he's left the Labour Party, he probably isn't a doyen of socialism is he?Don't worry, it's you that does the whatabouterry. I'll leave that to you.

In the meantime, are you going to answer the question as to whether you'd be happy to have Johnson as prime minister? Simple question.

Well he bloody well was until recently.

Leave you wanking on your question 😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 14, 2019, 12:58:21
Well he bloody well was until recently.
He was a member of the Labour Party certainly but I don't think he'd have described himself as a socialist, much less a "doyen of socialism", he was always more of a social democrat than a socialist.

Nice to see your refusal to commit to any answers extends beyond just the Brexit you keep shouting so loudly about but have no idea how to implement. Long on rhetoric, short on answers as always. Even Boris has finally consented to answer some questions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, June 14, 2019, 13:21:10
He was a member of the Labour Party certainly but I don't think he'd have described himself as a socialist, much less a "doyen of socialism", he was always more of a social democrat than a socialist.

Nice to see your refusal to commit to any answers extends beyond just the Brexit you keep shouting so loudly about but have no idea how to implement. Long on rhetoric, short on answers as always. Even Boris has finally consented to answer some questions.

Long on rhertoric, of course. I’m learning from you besties Reg & Jeremy. 😁 PS. I love winding you up you are so much fun, fantastic mileage for very little money. Keep up the good work.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 14, 2019, 13:41:36
I love winding you up you are so much fun, fantastic mileage for very little money. Keep up the good work.
Not wound up, just enjoy allowing you to air your ignorance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Friday, June 14, 2019, 13:56:21
.....which, like most Brexiters, he does rather well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, June 14, 2019, 14:21:36
Not wound up, just enjoy allowing you to air your ignorance.

Thank you. it is so kind of you I can hardly contain myself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, June 14, 2019, 14:23:08
.....which, like most Brexiters, he does rather well.

Yes indeed we do. It must be hard to be humble when you, the EU are perfect in every way. Fuck knows how you live with yourself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 14, 2019, 14:29:41
.....which, like most Brexiters, he does rather well.
tbf, it's only really him and SRK on here. chalkies_shorts, for example. pretty much always gives a reasonable, coherent argument for his views. Might not agree with them, but will always respect a reasonably held position.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Friday, June 14, 2019, 14:58:49
tbf, it's only really him and SRK on here. chalkies_shorts, for example. pretty much always gives a reasonable, coherent argument for his views. Might not agree with them, but will always respect a reasonably held position.
I agree. The problem for Brexiters is that the most vocal also tend to be the most stupid. ....as demonstrated by LL.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Friday, June 14, 2019, 15:08:40
Yes indeed we do. It must be hard to be humble when you, the EU are perfect in every way. Fuck knows how you live with yourself.
C'est facile.....a bit like your understanding of Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 14, 2019, 15:41:31
I agree. The problem for Brexiters is that the most vocal also tend to be the most stupid. ....as demonstrated by LL.
Again, that's not just Brexit-specific, it's a general thing. Which is why I am approaching nearly 20k posts :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, June 14, 2019, 15:49:48
yeah.

wait what


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Friday, June 14, 2019, 16:13:55
You can cut the sexual tension between PaulD and Legends-Lounge with a knife :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, June 14, 2019, 16:17:34
You can cut the sexual tension between PaulD and Legends-Lounge with a knife :)

Not used this one before, so here goes  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

SRK would probably be up for a menagerie a trois.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 14, 2019, 16:24:25
 :puke:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, June 14, 2019, 17:30:39
Not used this one before, so here goes  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

SRK would probably be up for a menagerie a trois.


I think that is as funny as fuck I like that, made my day 😁😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, June 14, 2019, 17:34:40
Again, that's not just Brexit-specific, it's a general thing. Which is why I am approaching nearly 20k posts :)

Yes, you love the sound of your own voice, and key board obviously. As the saying goes, empty vessels make the most noise.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, June 14, 2019, 18:05:34
I think that is as funny as fuck I like that, made my day 😁😁

Fine by me. Can I pick two posters from the town end site!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, June 14, 2019, 18:41:42
Yes, you love the sound of your own voice, and key board obviously. As the saying goes, empty vessels make the most noise.

Oh the irony ...  :clap:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, June 14, 2019, 18:55:13
Swa this and had to post the truth.  “Socialism always begins with a universal vision for the brotherhood of man and ends with people having to eat their own pets.”


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 17, 2019, 15:07:21
Brilliant: Jeremy Rhyming Slang has just tweeted "Every older person should die with dignity and respect". Not sure he actually meant to advocate a Logans Run style cull of the elderly (although you can never be sure, given the way he ran the NHS), but can't see this going down well if he gets through to the members' vote :)

https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/1140327538775994368?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 17, 2019, 15:14:25
Brilliant: Jeremy Rhyming Slang has just tweeted "Every older person should die with dignity and respect". Not sure he actually meant to advocate a Logans Run style cull of the elderly (although you can never be sure, given the way he ran the NHS), but can't see this going down well if he gets through to the members' vote :)

https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/1140327538775994368?s=20

The last sentence sounds very sinister....

Could not bring myself to watch the game of Tory Take me Out yesterday evening (not sure why these debates are necessary as none of us have a say in the matter), however from the clips I have seen Raab is really frighteningly thick isn't he, think combined with completely unjustified confidence, what could possibly go wrong!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 13:56:38
All getting very scorched earth now... (no idea why it has not resized and you have to scroll - sorry!)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9U47CRX4AAw2BZ?format=jpg&name=medium)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 14:13:55
Something has gone, deeply and wildly wrong that this is where the Conservative and Unionist Party has arrived at.  The country is in need of psychiatry. :(


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 14:15:39
So despite the desperate spin by the Corbynista's to support the anointed ones ideological viewpoint, most Labour voters are not working class Leavers - only 15% of 2017 Labour voters are. Almost half (46%) of Labour voters are middle class Remainers, as are 61% of Labour party members.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9VuD57WkAIPN4z.jpg:large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 14:17:20
I mostly agree with that revelation but you should remember that You gov are not a creditable polling organisation they are a right wing outlier.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 14:18:27
I mostly agree with that revelation but you should remember that You gov are not a creditable polling organisation they are a right wing outlier.



Entirely agreed, although its probably too great to be taken with to large a pinch of salt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 14:27:11
Something has gone, deeply and wildly wrong that this is where the Conservative and Unionist Party has arrived at.  The country is in need of psychiatry. :(

I honestly don't know what the point of that party is any more.  They're anti-business and anti-union/UK.  Why do they even still exist?  It's beyond bizarre.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 15:25:47
I honestly don't know what the point of that party is any more.  They're anti-business and anti-union/UK.  Why do they even still exist?  It's beyond bizarre.

This possibly suggests how bonkers they have become... https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1140885388912996353


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 16:32:34
There are rumours abound by certain political correspondents (on both sides of the spectrum) that Boris could win by so much this evening that he could be in Downing Street by the time Newsnight starts, being suggested that they are 'lending' 15 votes to Jeremy Hunt just so he comes second as he represents the easiest candidate for Boris to go to the final vote against if required?

Looks like all the Tory Mp's saying they would resign if he became leader was just another lie.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 19:15:58
Is Rory Stewart twice the height of the other candidates, or has he brought his own chair?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 19:17:35
Is Rory Stewart twice the height of the other candidates, or has he brought his own chair?

Hydraulic jack I think


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 20:01:03
Is Rory Stewart twice the height of the other candidates, or has he brought his own chair?

I've got no time at all for the vast majority of Tories as they always prove them to be self-serving hypocrites who rarely improve life for ordinary people.

Having watched that debate, seems to me that Rory Stewart is the least disingenuous and might actually offer policies that appeal to the majority rather than to the niche band of elderly swivel-eyed loons and/or non-dom billionaries that the others instinctively gravitate towards.

For that reason, he has no chance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 08:19:07
https://www.facebook.com/mockeree/videos/2239619179686687/UzpfSTEwNjU5ODQzOTY3OTY3OTg6MjM1NDgzNzg3NDU3ODEwNA/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 08:38:31
It was quite amusing from the responses by the candidates to each of the questions from the general public that they tried to somehow crowbar in their personal experiences to make them 'down to earth' and empathise with these people.

i.e 'I have adopted 100 children and have really been badly affected by cuts etc'. Gove 'I completely understand, I was an orphan until I was 4 months'

From a muslim gentleman who was concerned about islamaphobia. Boris 'My grandfather was a muslim'

I found it a bit cringy about how they were trying to make themselves seem somewhat a bit more 'normal'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 08:40:19
Is Rory Stewart twice the height of the other candidates, or has he brought his own chair?

Shittest edition of Blind Date ever!

BTW Has anyone noticed that we will shortly have leaders whose names are slang terms for farting and the mans appendage, its almost like someone who thought up these terms in historical times had a time machine!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 09:10:30
I honestly don't know what the point of that party is any more.  They're anti-business and anti-union/UK.  Why do they even still exist?  It's beyond bizarre.

The point of the Tory party is the same as it ever was... to protect the privileges of a narrow section of society.


 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 20, 2019, 12:04:47
A rather frank assessment from the Spectator....

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/06/ivan-rogers-no-deal-is-now-the-most-likely-outcome/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, June 20, 2019, 13:04:04
Well that was a terrifying read.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cowley38 on Thursday, June 20, 2019, 13:09:10
The point of the Tory party is the same as it ever was... to protect the privileges of a narrow section of society.


 

As opposed to the communist , Anti semetist Labour party who will send us to the brink of ruin if they ever got power!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 20, 2019, 13:16:53
As opposed to the communist , Anti semetist Labour party who will send us to the brink of ruin if they ever got power!!
Anti-semetist? What is semetism and why are Labour opposed to it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 20, 2019, 13:17:58
Well that was a terrifying read.
But very well argued. Should be made compulsory reading for both Leavers and Remainers, be nice to inject some reality into the fantasy-based debates currently taking place.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cowley38 on Thursday, June 20, 2019, 13:21:17
Anti-semetist? What is semetism and why are Labour opposed to it?

Antisemitism is hostility to, prejudice, or discrimination against Jews. A person who holds such positions is called an antisemite. Antisemitism is generally considered to be a form of racism.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 20, 2019, 13:25:48
Antisemitism is hostility to, prejudice, or discrimination against Jews. A person who holds such positions is called an antisemite. Antisemitism is generally considered to be a form of racism.
I was taking the piss, never mind. Oh and well done on joining the "whatabouttery" crew, you'll fit in well. All you need to do now is forget how to use the quote button


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cowley38 on Thursday, June 20, 2019, 13:27:00
I was taking the piss, never mind. Oh and well done on joining the "whatabouttery" crew, you'll fit in well. All you need to do now is forget how to use the quote button

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Thursday, June 20, 2019, 19:35:15
So it will be Johnson, Corbyn and Farage. Three of the biggest tools in any walk of life in the last decade. We must be living in a chuckle brothers parallel universe. All it needs now is the criminal Blair to throw his hat in somewhere and we'll have them all in one place at the same time for our amusement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 21, 2019, 09:03:41
Fucking unbelievable (or I wish it was anyway). Four weeks or so away from becoming Prime Minister, Johnson still doesn't hasn't bothered to get to grips with the fundamentals of a no-deal Brexit. Still trying to peddle the fairy tale that we will not incur immediate tariffs under WTO rules because of the magic of GATT 24. Except it doesn't apply, as Mark Carney has had to explain to him. Again.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/06/21/bank-england-governor-mark-carney-dismisses-johnson-claim-no/

It's one thing to say we are going to leave and there will be economic consequences and we'll all have to accept that. But this is simply either lying (as Farage is doing) or just not bothering to understand the basics. He's four weeks off being Prime Minister and the supposedly all-new "serious" Johnson still can't be bothered to understand the issues. We are fucked.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, June 21, 2019, 11:21:51
He understands the issue, he’s just saying shit to get him voted


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 21, 2019, 11:36:32
He understands the issue, he’s just saying shit to get him voted
Really? Not seen any evidence of that. He has a track record of not bothering to read his brief or getting his head round the issues, because he can't be arsed to do the work. Just ask Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, still languishing in an Iranian jail thanks to his contempt for details.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, June 21, 2019, 11:44:57
His advisers understand the issue, they’re just letting him say shit to get him voted


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, June 21, 2019, 11:48:38
Johnson will be a figurehead.  He will say things like 'Get it done!' and 'Do things!' and 'Pass the bottle, old boy!'  The grown ups behind him will really be in charge, a bit like Trump.  Johnson doesn't do detail or understand nuance.  He won't be allowed near anything important.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 21, 2019, 11:58:56
His advisers understand the issue, they’re just letting him say shit to get him voted
I'm sure they do. I'm equally sure he doesn't.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 21, 2019, 12:03:28
Johnson will be a figurehead.  He will say things like 'Get it done!' and 'Do things!' and 'Pass the bottle, old boy!'  The grown ups behind him will really be in charge, a bit like Trump.  Johnson doesn't do detail or understand nuance.  He won't be allowed near anything important.
Like they kept him away from the Garden Bridge? The illegal water cannons? Zaghari-Ratcliffe? Don't find the parallel with Trump gives me a lot of confidence tbh.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 21, 2019, 12:51:06
His advisers understand the issue, they’re just letting him say shit to get him voted

As rather indicated by this https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-20/what-is-boris-johnson-s-brexit-plan-mps-aren-t-really-listening


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 21, 2019, 12:52:00
Johnson will be a figurehead.  He will say things like 'Get it done!' and 'Do things!' and 'Pass the bottle, old boy!'  The grown ups behind him will really be in charge, a bit like Trump.  Johnson doesn't do detail or understand nuance.  He won't be allowed near anything important.

If that is the case its going to rather disprove the oft quoted Brexiteer paranoia that the Civil Service are looking to scupper Brexit?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, June 21, 2019, 20:36:55
Just when you think politics couldn't get any more strange...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/21/police-called-to-loud-altercation-at-boris-johnsons-home?CMP=share_btn_tw


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, June 21, 2019, 20:49:03
Just when you think politics couldn't get any more strange...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/21/police-called-to-loud-altercation-at-boris-johnsons-home?CMP=share_btn_tw

Yeah, made me laugh too. What crock of shit. Non story. Nothing to see. They’ll say he ate his hamster next.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, June 21, 2019, 23:18:43
Really?

The tabloids should ensure that, one way or another, Ms Symonds is kept in the manner she would like to be accustomed for some time at least.  New posh sofa coming up for sure.

Expensive just after a divorce.  Ouch!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, June 21, 2019, 23:25:34
Really?

The tabloids should ensure that, one way or another, Ms Symonds is kept in the manner she would like to be accustomed for some time at least.  New posh sofa coming up for sure.

Expensive just after a divorce.  Ouch!


Yes really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 06:46:58
I don't think that this sort of thing plays very well in Toryland.  The membership, mostly older than Johnson himself, is not known for being socially liberal.  It's the top story in just about every press outlet at the moment - even the right wing ones.  Not good news for a candidate whose strategy seems to be to keep as low a profile as possible, avoid all scrutiny and then fly under the radar in to Number 10.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 08:55:21
Not been a good 24 hours for the blue team, firstly Field manhandling a lass,  then  the Welsh mp being sacked and now Johnson being naughty.

Not sure what is more depressing the mess of our governing party, or the apologists for their mps assaulting women.

Sent from my SM-J330FN


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 09:05:34
I don't think that this sort of thing plays very well in Toryland.  The membership, mostly older than Johnson himself, is not known for being socially liberal.  It's the top story in just about every press outlet at the moment - even the right wing ones.  Not good news for a candidate whose strategy seems to be to keep as low a profile as possible, avoid all scrutiny and then fly under the radar in to Number 10.

Johnson already has a list of reasons long as your arm why he is unfit for high office, so I'm sure a bit of a "domestic" won't make much difference.  After all, as with Field getting a bit over physical with the lady Greenpeace protester, playing rough is quite popular with Tories.

ATM the Tories are desperate, and as Palmerston said after the Turks signed up with the Russians in the Treaty of Unkiar Skelessi, " a drowning man will clutch even at a serpent"   The Turks were trying to see off the Egyptians, Tories Farage.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 09:40:58
Johnson already has a list of reasons long as your arm why he is unfit for high office, so I'm sure a bit of a "domestic" won't make much difference.  After all, as with Field getting a bit over physical with the lady Greenpeace protester, playing rough is quite popular with Tories.

ATM the Tories are desperate, and as Palmerston said after the Turks signed up with the Russians in the Treaty of Unkiar Skelessi, " a drowning man will clutch even at a serpent"   The Turks were trying to see off the Egyptians, Tories Farage.

Reg, the gift that keeps on giving.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 10:50:20
Not been a good 24 hours for the blue team, firstly Field manhandling a lass,  then  the Welsh mp being sacked and now Johnson being naughty.

Not sure what is more depressing the mess of our governing party, or the apologists for their mps assaulting women.

Sent from my SM-J330FN
Not sure its just the blue team. The red team are pretty pathetic and don't seem to be able to make any political mileage out of the fact that the blue team are appalling. The fact that the yellow team seem to be undergoing a resurgence without doing anything is testament to the crapness of the others.

Quite how Boris is a candidate for PM is bewildering. But the other candidates were equally awful but in different ways!

I don't know precisely what the Welsh MP did, so can't comment.

However, I saw what Mark Field did. I think she deserved it! Good on him from stopping her from disrupting the event. He seemed to use the minimum amount of force to remove her. The bad thing about it is that she and the media seem to be making hay out of it - Really don't like these sort of protest and mock indignation when protesters provoke incidents and reap what they sow.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 11:09:01
However, I saw what Mark Field did. I think she deserved it! Good on him from stopping her from disrupting the event. He seemed to use the minimum amount of force to remove her. The bad thing about it is that she and the media seem to be making hay out of it - Really don't like these sort of protest and mock indignation when protesters provoke incidents and reap what they sow.

Field had recently been tweeting how the UK stood with women looking to exercise their rights to have their voices heard on issues...

Quote
“the UK remains committed to helping women all over the world to feel safe and protected in the work they do, so they can speak freely and be part of the change we all want.”

presumably just as long as it's somewhere else and nothing to do with change, if it doesn't fit his agenda.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 12:41:34
Not sure its just the blue team. The red team are pretty pathetic and don't seem to be able to make any political mileage out of the fact that the blue team are appalling. The fact that the yellow team seem to be undergoing a resurgence without doing anything is testament to the crapness of the others.

Quite how Boris is a candidate for PM is bewildering. But the other candidates were equally awful but in different ways!

I don't know precisely what the Welsh MP did, so can't comment.

However, I saw what Mark Field did. I think she deserved it! Good on him from stopping her from disrupting the event. He seemed to use the minimum amount of force to remove her. The bad thing about it is that she and the media seem to be making hay out of it - Really don't like these sort of protest and mock indignation when protesters provoke incidents and reap what they sow.

Good post. Pretty much how I see it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 18:25:41
Field's face said it all. A horrible little prick of a man.
I'm honestly staggered how people defend Tories. They're consistently cunts on every level. Each and every one of them.
Imagine if it had been Corbyn rowing with his girlfriend. Would have been 100x more coverage. Boris is and always has been a fucking arsehole. How much evidence do people need to conclude this? Forget his marital issues. What's he's done in positions of power is what should count against him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 18:33:41
However, I saw what Mark Field did. I think she deserved it!

Christ, hate to think what happens when your wife/daughter/aunt etc express an opinion you don't agree with.

+1 for violence against women.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 18:43:20
Christ, hate to think what happens when your wife/daughter/aunt etc express an opinion you don't agree with.

+1 for violence against women.
Why get personal? No need for it. If you disagree with my point of view that's fine.

I just think there are better ways and places to express opinions. I don't condone violence against women or men.
If one wanted to go down the freedom of speech argument, then what about the freedom of speech of the speaker and the guests that came to listen to him (rather than her)?

She wasnt invited to speak, she disrupted the evening and she was ejected. End of story.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 18:56:27
Field's face said it all. A horrible little prick of a man.
I'm honestly staggered how people defend Tories. They're consistently cunts on every level. Each and every one of them.
Imagine if it had been Corbyn rowing with his girlfriend. Would have been 100x more coverage. Boris is and always has been a fucking arsehole. How much evidence do people need to conclude this? Forget his marital issues. What's he's done in positions of power is what should count against him.

You conveniently forget about that old man who was man handled out of the Labour Party conference in Bournemouth (I think) by burly bouncers.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 19:02:26
Of course had that woman been challenged and thrown something noxious at the speaker would you a) applaud her because he’s a Tory or b) scream why didn’t anyone stop her?

Luckily for her she got shown the door sharpish in nothing more than a firm manner. Perish the thought she didn’t have a weapon and lash out. But hey it’s the Tories and just breathing for some of you is a crime. God help us if Corbyn and McDonald get in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 19:13:50
You conveniently forget about that old man who was man handled out of the Labour Party conference in Bournemouth (I think) by burly bouncers.....

It wasn't right that that bloke was taken out of the Labour conference.  In 2005.  14 years ago.  I think we should definitely use it to make a point about Corbyn and Mcdonnell.  It's definitely their fault and absolutely the same thing that the Tory MP did.

14 years ago.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 19:16:24
It wasn't right that that bloke was taken out of the Labour conference.  In 2005.  14 years ago.  I think we should definitely use it to make a point about Corbyn and Mcdonnell.  It's definitely their fault and absolutely the same thing that the Tory MP did.

14 years ago.


14 years, does not matter. Stones and glass houses.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 19:43:54
You conveniently forget about that old man who was man handled out of the Labour Party conference in Bournemouth (I think) by burly bouncers.....

Not forgotten. Unrelated. Thought it was disgusting by the way. I'm sure he was "Harry's last stand" from twitter who recently passed? What a great man he was. A proper Labour man and wonderful, compassionate human being.

Doesn't excuse that fuckwit, gritting his teeth and doing what he did. Assualting a peaceful protester. What a cunt


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 19:48:45
Not forgotten. Unrelated. Thought it was disgusting by the way. I'm sure he was "Harry's last stand" from twitter who recently passed? What a great man he was. A proper Labour man and wonderful, compassionate human being.

Doesn't excuse that fuckwit, gritting his teeth and doing what he did. Assualting a peaceful protester. What a cunt
Agree to differ then shan’t we.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 19:50:05
He clearly snapped when the red must came down. Such a bullshit excuse too.

Don't think he should lose his career over it though.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 20:13:31
Field's face said it all. A horrible little prick of a man.
I'm honestly staggered how people defend Tories. They're consistently cunts on every level. Each and every one of them.
Imagine if it had been Corbyn rowing with his girlfriend. Would have been 100x more coverage. Boris is and always has been a fucking arsehole. How much evidence do people need to conclude this? Forget his marital issues. What's he's done in positions of power is what should count against him.
I believe the phrase is...

Good post. Pretty much how I see it.



Sent from my SM-J330FN


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 20:22:50
I believe the phrase is...

Good post. Pretty much how I see it.



Sent from my SM-J330FN

Lowest form of wit. Is how everyone else will see it 😉


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, June 22, 2019, 20:49:49
Think this should be more of a concern for some of you. Should keep you up for the next few nights.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-7170151/Love-Islands-Amy-embroiled-fake-boyfriend-claims-jealous-pals-tries-SABOTAGE-her.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 24, 2019, 12:39:34
25 years ago this was first shown - remarkably prescient. Back then it was funny because it was far-fetched satire:

https://youtu.be/f6a_weyzkY4


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 24, 2019, 14:23:29
Johnson's domestics over the weekend are providing a handy distraction from the far more concerning revelations that he takes advice from US far right activist (and Trump's link man to the US far right/"white nationalist" groups), Steve Bannon. To give some context, Bannon's a big admirer of EDL hooligan, racist, wife beater, and fraudster Yaxley Lennon (aka Tommy Robinson):

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-06-23/boris-johnson-under-more-pressure-as-steve-bannon-talks-about-helping-his-speech-in-video/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, June 24, 2019, 15:15:49
That's a lovely photo of Johnson holding hands with his girlfriend, though.  The meadow looks a bit overgrown, just like his hair.  But there's no mistaking just how in love they are, and what a brilliant PM he'd make.  It's all good.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 24, 2019, 15:15:59
Johnson's domestics over the weekend are providing a handy distraction from the far more concerning revelations that he takes advice from US far right activist (and Trump's link man to the US far right/"white nationalist" groups), Steve Bannon. To give some context, Bannon's a big admirer of EDL hooligan, racist, wife beater, and fraudster Yaxley Lennon (aka Tommy Robinson):

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-06-23/boris-johnson-under-more-pressure-as-steve-bannon-talks-about-helping-his-speech-in-video/


Handy innit....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 24, 2019, 15:17:05
That's a lovely photo of Johnson holding hands with his girlfriend, though.  The meadow looks a bit overgrown, just like his hair.  But there's no mistaking just how in love they are, and what a brilliant PM he'd make.  It's all good.

This one?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D90t1aYX4AANsmX.jpg:large)

Expecting to see May skipping through the meadow in the background. Dunno what he has put on his hair but I would love some, its grown about 3 inches since Saturday?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Monday, June 24, 2019, 15:21:00
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1144557/Brexit-Party-reveals-it-will-legally-challenge-Peterborough-by-election

I'm realy surprised by this? Not Labour they'd never cheat an election now would they.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, June 24, 2019, 15:21:07
Brilliant.

If ever there was a photo op targeted specifically with the Tory Party blue-rise brigade in mind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 24, 2019, 15:28:02
This one?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D90t1aYX4AANsmX.jpg:large)
No wonder they were rowing - this is clear photographic evidence that she's having it away with Ed Sheeran on the side


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 24, 2019, 16:11:17
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1144557/Brexit-Party-reveals-it-will-legally-challenge-Peterborough-by-election

I'm realy surprised by this? Not Labour they'd never cheat an election now would they.

I am not really sure what you are surprised by, as it stands no crime has been shown to have been committed and its just the NewKip making all manner of threats to squeem and squeem and squeem. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 21:34:56
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the next Prime Minister of Great Britain, struggling to explain how he paints cardboard boxes to look like buses (no, really). Heard more lucid coherence from the blokes who sit in the car parks with bottles of White Lightning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLcCZjDoWTQ


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 21:45:38
I have been looking for a decent video of this, and I was going to make the same intro.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 22:17:02
As one Twitterati said, sounds a lot like

https://youtu.be/18JmieM8SFc (https://youtu.be/18JmieM8SFc)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 07:22:47
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the next Prime Minister of Great Britain, struggling to explain how he paints cardboard boxes to look like buses (no, really). Heard more lucid coherence from the blokes who sit in the car parks with bottles of White Lightning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLcCZjDoWTQ

I used to paint boxes to look like trains so can understand where he is coming from...... although I was 5 at the time!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 09:36:18
He even needed prompting of the date brexit is meant to happen :doh:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:24:58
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D96advkW4AAPe9R.jpg)

by Boris aged 55


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 17:10:20
I am not really sure what you are surprised by, as it stands no crime has been shown to have been committed and its just the NewKip making all manner of threats to squeem and squeem and squeem. 

But that's not a big enough majority in favour of Labour. The voters knowing what they do now, have changed their minds. We need a peoples vote to settle the argument, so a re-run of the by election is the only answer. No convicted election fraudsters, no postal voting allowed this time, what are you afraid of ?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 17:44:03
snakes


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 08:37:47
snakes

Parliament is full of them, don't go there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 08:44:34
Parliament is full of them, don't go there.

(https://pics.me.me/im-fine-hun-just-too-many-snakes-in-soviet-union-29448143.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Panda Paws on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 11:09:40
It's been suggested that the Boris bus painting anecdote is a plot to play the Google search algo, and it's worked.

https://parall.ax/blog/view/3301/boris-johnson-the-unlikely-seo-strategist


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 11:11:13
It's been suggested that the Boris bus painting anecdote is a plot to play the Google search algo, and it's worked.

https://parall.ax/blog/view/3301/boris-johnson-the-unlikely-seo-strategist

Who cares? Really I mean cares?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 11:44:24
I've only just seen the Johnson bus video thing now, and it's every bit as incredible as I'd heard it was.  He's clearly taking the piss.  What he really means to say is:

'Fuck you.  Fuck every single one of you.  Fuck you and your stupid questions.  Ask me a stupid question, and I'll make up a stupid answer on the spot.  And they'll lap it up.  I'll wing it, just like I always do.  I'm not even trying to be credible here.  I'll make stuff up that no sane person would ever believe.  And you know what?  They'll vote me in anyway.  So fuck you again.  I can do what the fuck I like.'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 11:50:26
I've only just seen the Johnson bus video thing now, and it's every bit as incredible as I'd heard it was.  He's clearly taking the piss. 

That's one interpretation.

Personally think he's just bugled it:

internal boris: Oh shit, I was only half listening, right something interesting - well I can't fail to beat 'fields of what', just don't mention the bloody bus, that's all I have to do
Boris: I like putting crates together and painting them like buses.

internal boris: Oh shit, quick bring it back in out favour
Boris: er, no not buses, the people on them.

team Boris: Oh FFS. Quick, lets paper over it. What's that work experience guy...google rankings. Great. GO GO GO.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 11:55:31
It's not the buses that bothers me so much. It's his complete inability to articulate himself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 12:08:03
I've only just seen the Johnson bus video thing now, and it's every bit as incredible as I'd heard it was.  He's clearly taking the piss.  What he really means to say is:

'Fuck you.  Fuck every single one of you.  Fuck you and your stupid questions.  Ask me a stupid question, and I'll make up a stupid answer on the spot.  And they'll lap it up.  I'll wing it, just like I always do.  I'm not even trying to be credible here.  I'll make stuff up that no sane person would ever believe.  And you know what?  They'll vote me in anyway.  So fuck you again.  I can do what the fuck I like.'
Yep, like Trump with his "I could shoot people on 5th Avenue and people would still vote for me". Both advised by the far-right/"white nationalist" strategist, Steve Bannon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 12:17:03
Yep, like Trump with his "I could shoot people on 5th Avenue and people would still vote for me". Both advised by the far-right/"white nationalist" strategist, Steve Bannon.

You take things too seriously.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 13:32:15
You take things too seriously.
This incompetent liar who just makes shit up instead of actually bothering to think things through is likely in a few weeks to be the Primer Minister charged with steering the nation through one of it's gravest crises both domestically and externally for years. Yeah, I take that seriously. Still not prepared to come out and admit you support this idiot are you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 16:00:56
This incompetent liar who just makes shit up instead of actually bothering to think things through is likely in a few weeks to be the Primer Minister charged with steering the nation through one of it's gravest crises both domestically and externally for years. Yeah, I take that seriously. Still not prepared to come out and admit you support this idiot are you?

I can't say I like the idea of Borris as PM for many reasons but when you look at the other options, well he's a nailed on first choice.Otherwise its more commies and eu suck ups. There's no future in those as its been tried and failed so many times. He has one job to do which is leave the eussr. May was unable to complete that simple task, well see if Borris can at least lead the country to freedom. If he gets that over the line,then that will be1 thing more than many PM's before him have achieved.
In my life we have some utterly terrrible PM's, who the media held on high. Borris may have problems with his moral compass but if he can get the job done where others failed, history will remember him kindly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 16:30:23
I met Boris today quite a personable chap. I also knew of Red Robbo through my father. Never thought a more dangerous group would surface in my lifetime but Corbyns lot are much more dangerous. Unfortunately most people alive today never went through 25% inflation and mortgage rates of 15%. Be very careful what you wish for is my advice. Oh and I detest the views of "Reg Smeeton" mainly because they are wrong on so many levels.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 16:42:44
I can't say I like the idea of Borris as PM for many reasons but when you look at the other options, well he's a nailed on first choice.Otherwise its more commies and eu suck ups. There's no future in those as its been tried and failed so many times. He has one job to do which is leave the eussr. May was unable to complete that simple task, well see if Borris can at least lead the country to freedom. If he gets that over the line,then that will be1 thing more than many PM's before him have achieved.
In my life we have some utterly terrrible PM's, who the media held on high. Borris may have problems with his moral compass but if he can get the job done where others failed, history will remember him kindly.
FFS, you'd have thought the one word a Russian bot would be able to spell properly is "Boris" :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 17:12:57
Slightly off the Boris topic can anyone give me a reason why it is acceptable to vilify a person just because of their age. Much is said about baby boomers (mostly negative) it seems to be the only ism that is unchallenged and has no legislation to fall back on. The movement towards much greater tolerance towards minorities should be applauded but I can't help thinking the verbal abuse towards older people is seen as ok. Sorry I was nasty towards Reg but in my defence it wasn't because he is old.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Richie Wellen-Dowd on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 17:35:06
Slightly off the Boris topic can anyone give me a reason why it is acceptable to vilify a person just because of their age. Much is said about baby boomers (mostly negative) it seems to be the only ism that is unchallenged and has no legislation to fall back on. The movement towards much greater tolerance towards minorities should be applauded but I can't help thinking the verbal abuse towards older people is seen as ok. Sorry I was nasty towards Reg but in my defence it wasn't because he is old.

Because they'll all be dead soon?

No legislation? Soppy fucking tit wank you cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 17:37:37
I met Boris today quite a personable chap. I also knew of Red Robbo through my father. Never thought a more dangerous group would surface in my lifetime but Corbyns lot are much more dangerous. Unfortunately most people alive today never went through 25% inflation and mortgage rates of 15%. Be very careful what you wish for is my advice. Oh and I detest the views of "Reg Smeeton" mainly because they are wrong on so many levels.

I do remember 15% mortgage interest rates. They were last that high in the Uk in the late 80s after nearly a decade of Conservative rule. But don’t let facts get in the way eh.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 18:11:14
This incompetent liar who just makes shit up instead of actually bothering to think things through is likely in a few weeks to be the Primer Minister charged with steering the nation through one of it's gravest crises both domestically and externally for years. Yeah, I take that seriously. Still not prepared to come out and admit you support this idiot are you?

No of your business really is it? You need to calm down son. If I said I did you’ll dish out dogs abuse. If I say I don’t you’ll call me a liar and give out dogs abuse. I have given up feeding the animals.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 18:24:13
Wow! Bit harsh Richard Tiny-Prick and I thought the age of tolerance was dead. Perhaps I should have died  protecting your freedom rather than survived. Have a good one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 18:32:29
Lots of sophisticated debate going on in here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 18:35:04
Ageism is covered under the Discrimination laws in the UK.

Boris Johnson is a fuckwit.

Brexit will happen, and should.

There wont be a Peoples Vote 2

The economy won't be as strong under WTO rules as it would be as part of a 500m+ trading Bloc of people with free trade

The UK won't implode once out

Happy to clear some things up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Richie Wellen-Dowd on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 18:51:29
Ageism is covered under the Discrimination laws in the UK.

Boris Johnson is a fuckwit.

Brexit will happen, and should.

There wont be a Peoples Vote 2

The economy won't be as strong under WTO rules as it would be as part of a 500m+ trading Bloc of people with free trade

The UK won't implode once out

Happy to clear some things up.

And I was just about to reply and say after 427 pages, I'm amazed the World hasn't been put to rights.

If only everyone could be so level-headed instead of the ridiculous polarity over every issue.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 19:00:46
Ageism is covered under the Discrimination laws in the UK.

Boris Johnson is a fuckwit.

Brexit will happen, and should.

There wont be a Peoples Vote 2

The economy won't be as strong under WTO rules as it would be as part of a 500m+ trading Bloc of people with free trade

The UK won't implode once out

Happy to clear some things up.

Ageism is covered under the Discrimination laws in the UK. Correct and agree

Boris Johnson is a fuckwit. Correct to a point. Other fuckwits are available on both sides of the house.

Brexit will happen, and should. Correct and agree.

There wont be a Peoples Vote 2. Correct and agree.

The economy won't be as strong under WTO rules as it would be as part of a 500m+ trading Bloc of people with free trade. Correct up to a point. There will be a deal, (hopefully better than the present one) if not imeadiately after leaving with a no deal then very quickly after that, it will fucking focus the minds on both sides. Business (those nasty capitalists) will ensure that.

The UK won't implode once out. Correct, it has not after the doom mongers said it would if voted to leave.

Either way it will take time to find our feet in the new world but there is nothing to be frightened of, cautious yes, frightened no.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 19:05:48
Wow! Bit harsh Richard Tiny-Prick and I thought the age of tolerance was dead. Perhaps I should have died  protecting your freedom rather than survived. Have a good one.

Are you claiming to be a WW2 veteran?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Richie Wellen-Dowd on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 19:10:57
Are you claiming to be a WW2 veteran?

I think he must be one of those Japanese soldiers still fighting on a Pacific island somewhere, if he didn't realise there was age discrimination legislation. I'm beginning to wonder if I wasn't a little hasty bestowing him with the honorary title of cunt.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 19:52:21
Are you claiming to be a WW2 veteran?
If he is we have a new 'oldest poster' by a country bloody mile, unless its one of the 70+ers who seem to genuinely seem to think they fought.

Sent from my SM-J330FN


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 20:01:50
I realise that the history taught in schools is not that which was available to my generation however I would have thought even you would have known that there have been more conflicts since WW2 that would have impacted on freedom. The point about ageism is that I believe you would have been reluctant to tell a ..........insert minority to die but you were quite happy to tell me to pop my clogs. Hypocritical or what. Virtue signalling leaves me cold. I treat everybody with respect you should try it some time. xxx


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 20:14:00
I realise that the history taught in schools is not that which was available to my generation however I would have thought even you would have known that there have been more conflicts since WW2 that would have impacted on freedom. The point about ageism is that I believe you would have been reluctant to tell a ..........insert minority to die but you were quite happy to tell me to pop my clogs. Hypocritical or what. Virtue signalling leaves me cold. I treat everybody with respect you should try it some time. xxx

😉


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Richie Wellen-Dowd on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 20:39:47
I realise that the history taught in schools is not that which was available to my generation however I would have thought even you would have known that there have been more conflicts since WW2 that would have impacted on freedom. The point about ageism is that I believe you would have been reluctant to tell a ..........insert minority to die but you were quite happy to tell me to pop my clogs. Hypocritical or what. Virtue signalling leaves me cold. I treat everybody with respect you should try it some time. xxx

No one told you to pop your clogs, it was a joke about why we don't need to take age discrimination seriously. I think we should joke about everyone and everything.

Pray tell what conflict(s) you are referring to? My school education was pretty poor but I think I know every war we've been in since WWII and I can't see how any of them have affected my freedom, other than negatively of course.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 20:41:33
Don't even get me started on Brexit! I accept that an argument could be made for a second referendum/people's vote/confirmatory vote however the options are the key. The majority have already voted to leave the EU so the ballot choice must be between Mays deal and a WTO deal.Remain cannot be a choice if we are to continue to be a democracy. Dominic Grieve wants three choices the two above plus remain! If Mays deal gets 33%, WTO gets 33% and remain gets 34% who wins? Grieve is a bit odd. Ha Ha


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 20:48:43
I wasn't aware that we had openly declared war on anyone since 1939 but I could be wrong hence you will note I used the word conflict which I would argue has a different if similar accepted meaning. Please don't cut and paste from Oxford English dictionary. Many men and women have taken up arms to protect your rights since the 1940's you would do well to remember that. Happy days xxxx


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 20:56:13
Continuing my Reg theme is there any chance of getting him to give us a few tales about Park Grammar I went there so could be interesting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 21:01:54
Continuing my Reg theme is there any chance of getting him to give us a few tales about Park Grammar I went there so could be interesting.

What do you want to know 😉 park old boy representing 😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, June 27, 2019, 21:22:56
we won't cease to be a democracy if we change our mind on brexit.

the Tory party may cease to be though. Hence won't happen


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, June 28, 2019, 03:17:48
Are you claiming to be a WW2 veteran?
I don’t think he’s a wrestler.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, June 28, 2019, 06:30:58
I realise that the history taught in schools is not that which was available to my generation however I would have thought even you would have known that there have been more conflicts since WW2 that would have impacted on freedom. The point about ageism is that I believe you would have been reluctant to tell a ..........insert minority to die but you were quite happy to tell me to pop my clogs. Hypocritical or what. Virtue signalling leaves me cold. I treat everybody with respect you should try it some time. xxx

Sorry mate, my history is not so strong. Which 'conflict' since WW2 has impacted on my 'freedom' in any way?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, June 28, 2019, 07:54:30
Sorry mate, my history is not so strong. Which 'conflict' since WW2 has impacted on my 'freedom' in any way?

Probably Suez. Our getting into bed with the French and Israelis, and then coming up against the realpolitik of being told to do one by the US, brought any last pretensions that our government was free to act down to the ground, and rapidly brought on the end of empire.

By the early 60's Dean Acheson, JFK's Secretary of State could debunk the notion of the "Special Relationship" and give us UK "has lost an empire, but yet to find a role" as he approved our application to join the nascent EU.  MacMillan thought he still has some influence on Kennedy, but came up against reality when, he had to accept a US nuclear submarine facility at Holy Loch nr Glasgow.  MacMillan didn't object to having one in a more remote bit of Scotland, but thought making Glasgow an obvious target below the belt; tough shit.

Brexit is a logical extension of this process whereby we become de facto the 51st State.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 28, 2019, 08:01:51
Interesting to hear Putin's comments being reported this morning. He's gloating about the demise of liberal democracy brought about by the rise of "national populism" (Trump, Orban, Farage, Le Pen, Salvini et al). Money well spent then Vlad.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 28, 2019, 08:21:35
No of your business really is it?
Fair enough :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, June 28, 2019, 08:26:15
Ageism is covered under the Discrimination laws in the UK. Correct and agree

Boris Johnson is a fuckwit. Correct to a point. Other fuckwits are available on both sides of the house.

Brexit will happen, and should. Correct and agree.

There wont be a Peoples Vote 2. Correct and agree.

The economy won't be as strong under WTO rules as it would be as part of a 500m+ trading Bloc of people with free trade. Correct up to a point. There will be a deal, (hopefully better than the present one) if not imeadiately after leaving with a no deal then very quickly after that, it will fucking focus the minds on both sides. Business (those nasty capitalists) will ensure that.

The UK won't implode once out. Correct, it has not after the doom mongers said it would if voted to leave.

Either way it will take time to find our feet in the new world but there is nothing to be frightened of, cautious yes, frightened no.

What you appear to be saying is that... yes there will be a hit, but it won't be that bad.

Most of us will only be a bit poorer, but a price worth paying for the break up of the Union, the nice Mr Johnson getting to fulfill his ambition, and Mr Rees Mogg making a few more bob in the far east


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 28, 2019, 08:54:01
Don't even get me started on Brexit! I accept that an argument could be made for a second referendum/people's vote/confirmatory vote however the options are the key. The majority have already voted to leave the EU so the ballot choice must be between Mays deal and a WTO deal.Remain cannot be a choice if we are to continue to be a democracy. Dominic Grieve wants three choices the two above plus remain! If Mays deal gets 33%, WTO gets 33% and remain gets 34% who wins? Grieve is a bit odd. Ha Ha

For admittedly only the 2,700,000 time on here, there is not such thing as a WTO deal!

Please tell me you are not going to start on about GATT24 next.

God I miss Chalkiesshorts....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, June 28, 2019, 09:05:36
Probably Suez. Our getting into bed with the French and Israelis, and then coming up against the realpolitik of being told to do one by the US, brought any last pretensions that our government was free to act down to the ground, and rapidly brought on the end of empire.

By the early 60's Dean Acheson, JFK's Secretary of State could debunk the notion of the "Special Relationship" and give us UK "has lost an empire, but yet to find a role" as he approved our application to join the nascent EU.  MacMillan thought he still has some influence on Kennedy, but came up against reality when, he had to accept a US nuclear submarine facility at Holy Loch nr Glasgow.  MacMillan didn't object to having one in a more remote bit of Scotland, but thought making Glasgow an obvious target below the belt; tough shit.

Brexit is a logical extension of this process whereby we become de facto the 51st State.

Korean War? Battling a Red Menace.
GosportRob could be a Glorious Gloucester.
That would be great. Living history on the TEF.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 28, 2019, 09:10:08
Probably Suez. Our getting into bed with the French and Israelis, and then coming up against the realpolitik of being told to do one by the US, brought any last pretensions that our government was free to act down to the ground, and rapidly brought on the end of empire.

By the early 60's Dean Acheson, JFK's Secretary of State could debunk the notion of the "Special Relationship" and give us UK "has lost an empire, but yet to find a role" as he approved our application to join the nascent EU.  MacMillan thought he still has some influence on Kennedy, but came up against reality when, he had to accept a US nuclear submarine facility at Holy Loch nr Glasgow.  MacMillan didn't object to having one in a more remote bit of Scotland, but thought making Glasgow an obvious target below the belt; tough shit.

Brexit is a logical extension of this process whereby we become de facto the 51st State.

Even to have been at Suez we are probably talking a veteran being in their late 70's now?

Whole thing is just bringing this to mind again!



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 28, 2019, 09:10:28
Falklands would be my guess


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Friday, June 28, 2019, 09:12:25
Korean War? Battling a Red Menace.
GosportRob could be a Glorious Gloucester.
That would be great. Living history on the TEF.
My dad was with the Glorious Glosters in Korea and Aden in the early 50's.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, June 28, 2019, 09:19:21
My dad was with the Glorious Glosters in Korea and Aden in the early 50's.

Respect. Hope he found it in himself to talk to you about his experiences.

I know a lot of veterans were / are reluctant, understandably, to talk about what being in conflict was like.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Friday, June 28, 2019, 09:24:17
Respect. Hope he found it in himself to talk to you about his experiences.

I know a lot of veterans were / are reluctant, understandably, to talk about what being in conflict was like.
He spoke his time there a lot right up to the day he died but never spoke about actual conflict, just about the camaraderie surrounding the experience, he served for 7 years from 48 to 55 when he moved to Swindon after meeting my mums brother while in Aden...the rest is my history!

The first thing my uncle did when my dad visited to Swindon was to take him to a game at the County Ground in 1952, thats why I am here on the forum now I guess!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, June 28, 2019, 09:50:44
Korean War? Battling a Red Menace.
GosportRob could be a Glorious Gloucester.
That would be great. Living history on the TEF.

We were ni Korea as apart of a United Nations force.

One of our last soloish endeavours was the Sarawak Insurgency... a cold war side show of the very early 60's, Uncle Sam was happy to leave that to us, as it was a fight against communism, in tropical jungle, and we were good at that sort of thing, having experience in Burma etc.

The Americans as Vietnam showed less so.  

Obviously well worth it, as it allows the likes of The Sultan of Brunei, to control the oil wealth and introduce stoning of gays and other Sharia Law niceties.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Friday, June 28, 2019, 18:23:55
Ok Horlock07 given the choice of leave with Mays deal, leave without an agreed deal or remain and using the percentages of 33, 33 and 34 WHICH OPTION WINS?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 06:17:20
Where are you getting those percentages from?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 06:42:45
Christ almighty I made them up to prove you cannot have a fair referendum if the choices split the vote of one side of opinion. It was mainly to show that Grieve treats anyone who doesn't agree with him as a gibbering moron. He held one of the highest roles of state so what hope do we have that mp's of any persuasion will ever represent the proletariat?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 07:51:12
Christ almighty I made them up to prove you cannot have a fair referendum if the choices split the vote of one side of opinion. It was mainly to show that Grieve treats anyone who doesn't agree with him as a gibbering moron. He held one of the highest roles of state so what hope do we have that mp's of any persuasion will ever represent the proletariat?
Grieve's priorities are 1st France,2nd eussr,3rd himself. How that man ever became an MP of the UK shows how lax and corrupt our system is. He doesn't care about his party or his constituents, he just wants to enusre tax payers money gets re-directed to france via the eu, for which he's been richly rewarded.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 09:21:33
Christ almighty I made them up to prove you cannot have a fair referendum if the choices split the vote of one side of opinion. It was mainly to show that Grieve treats anyone who doesn't agree with him as a gibbering moron. He held one of the highest roles of state so what hope do we have that mp's of any persuasion will ever represent the proletariat?

All the Leave voters would vote for "No Deal", because they all knew what they were voting for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 09:25:59
So if the choice was no deal, remain or remain with bells on how would remainers vote? Of cause all remainers want to live in the United States of Europe don't they? I don't think So!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 09:35:23
Now you're being silly.

It is well known that all Leavers voted for No Deal. So why include May's deal in a 3rd referendum?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 10:09:11
If there were to be a second referendum (and I don't think there should be), the question would need to be in two parts:
1) Leave or Remain
2) If Leave, leave with May's deal or leave with no deal?

And there should be at least a 60% majority required to overturn the status quo (some countries use 66% IIRC). As there should have been last time


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 10:14:44
Not guilty I am afraid. It is a sneaky ploy by the honest john politicians to ensure if a second referendum, people's vote confirmation vote (choose what you want to call it) is held their desired outcome cannot fail. The result of the referendum is known and should be implemented. Don't care which party/views people support Parliamentarians will never be trusted again!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 10:19:26
I see the EU have signed a free trade agreement with South America that took 20 years to negotiate.

How do these things take that length of time? I know there are complexities but 20 years is a barmy amount of time!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 10:27:01
That's a fair argument Pauld but taken to it's natural conclusion no-one would win any vote/election as the "winner" hardly ever achieves 66%. The question we should be asking is if a new poll still showed the majority wish to leave do we go for best of 5 referenda? What if 50.01% of possibly a smaller number voting next time support remain does that mean we must all accept the result? Ask the guy in the bowler hat and EU flag/placards what he thinks. As an aside who is leaking where the next political interview will take place so he can be in the background. Ha Ha.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 10:54:42
Ooops meant to type top hat.Ha Ha


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 10:58:07
If there were to be a second referendum (and I don't think there should be), the question would need to be in two parts:
1) Leave or Remain
2) If Leave, leave with May's deal or leave with no deal?

And there should be at least a 60% majority required to overturn the status quo (some countries use 66% IIRC). As there should have been last time


If there were to be a second referendum (and I don't think there should be), the question would need to be in two parts: That much we agree on...
However, would it though? It does open a huge can of worms. Who sets the question/s? What would they say/ask? Would they be loaded one way or another? How many questions? Would there be a preference set up for multiple questions. It just goes on, which IMHO there should be no second vote. It does suit the EU of course dragging it out and keep putting back the leaving date. Trying to wear us down one way or another.

So taking your 2nd point. No deal is as it suggests, fair enough, however, is May’s real really as good as it gets? My understanding of part of it as it stands is that we would be hamstrung for at least two years from striking trade deals. Now as someone has asked today about the twenty years allegedly that the EU has taken to strike a trade deal with S. America. You can rest assured that in the two years we couldn’t do any trade deals ourselves the EU will do whatever they can to get any ongoing deals they are working on over the line and at the same time sabotage anything we may try to do after our two year hiatus is over.

Personallyspeaking by taking the threat of not deal off the table we as a country have snatched the gun from the EU in a game of Russian roulette, why I have no idea. If as has been parroted by ‘remain’ MP’s that they respect the vote to leave then surely as patriotic citizens taking the queens shilling on our behalf they should be going hell for leather to get the absolutely best deal we can get. If that means using a no deal as a weapon so be it. Unless of course these MP’s have no intention of letting the U.K. ever leave.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 11:50:02

So taking your 2nd point. No deal is as it suggests, fair enough, however, is May’s real really as good as it gets?
If you want to leave by 31st Oct it is, the EU have made that very clear, whatever ridiculous fantasies Johnson and Hunt are spinning about renegoiating the terms of the deal


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 11:59:37
Too true Legends Lounge! For about a month after the referendum all nay sayers went into shock. Then the drivel started :- I accept the result of the referendum but........ no one voted to be poorer....... those who voted to leave didn't know what they were voting for....... I stood on a manifesto to implement the result of the referendum but my constituents kn :clap:ew my personal view was we must remain.....

Throughout the time since the referendum the political elite, the pro remain BBC and Sky have been drip feeding project fear Mark two. However the manner in which the EU has conducted "negotiations" is so vile I suspect a fair referendum would now be much more for leave than in the original.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 12:19:11
Combe down is back then


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 12:20:43
How have the EU handled negotiations poorly??


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 12:53:00
If you want to leave by 31st Oct it is, the EU have made that very clear, whatever ridiculous fantasies Johnson and Hunt are spinning about renegoiating the terms of the deal

I disagree, in as much as IIRC two ministers Davis being one, Raab being another. Or was it three? who were charged with negotiating our exit then resigned because of May, who eventually took it in herself to ‘negotiate’ from one of the weakest positions one could have as we won’t leave without a deal. As I mentioned before if you have not got the option to in street speak tell ’em to fuck, you’re going to get shafted. Of course she was aided and abetted by Parliament who wrestled legislation through ensuring we couldnt do that. So we are where we are. We both agree it is not ideal and although we come from different ends of the political spectrum how many votes have we had on the ‘deal’ that have won parliamentary support? None. We know we cannot keep going on as is but my feeling is if we do not however it is managed in the HOC get to within spitting distance of 31/10 without a concrete mandate to sign off what is currently on the table (assuming nothing else has been agreed to) the the EU will blink. How that manifests itself god knows though again I think they will. If you pushed me i’d say yet another extension. In that case rest assured behind the scenes the horse trading would be going full steam. Boris or Hunt has to stand up and be counted or this time next year Rodney we’ll still be discussing this clusterfuck. Don’t rule out a GE either, which then....ah fuck it’s hot and I have guests around for a BBQ later. I need to check on my marinating leg of lamb and temperature of the beer. 🍺


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 12:57:50
I disagree, in as much as IIRC two ministers Davis being one, Raab being another. Or was it three? who were charged with negotiating our exit then resigned because of May, who eventually took it in herself to ‘negotiate’ from one of the weakest positions one could have as we won’t leave without a deal. As I mentioned before if you have not got the option to in street speak tell ’em to fuck, you’re going to get shafted. Of course she was aided and abetted by Parliament who wrestled legislation through ensuring we couldnt do that. So we are where we are. We both agree it is not ideal and although we come from different ends of the political spectrum how many votes have we had on the ‘deal’ that have won parliamentary support? None. We know we cannot keep going on as is but my feeling is if we do not however it is managed in the HOC get to within spitting distance of 31/10 without a concrete mandate to sign off what is currently on the table (assuming nothing else has been agreed to) the the EU will blink. How that manifests itself god knows though again I think they will. If you pushed me i’d say yet another extension. In that case rest assured behind the scenes the horse trading would be going full steam. Boris or Hunt has to stand up and be counted or this time next year Rodney we’ll still be discussing this clusterfuck. Don’t rule out a GE either, which then....ah fuck it’s hot and I have guests around for a BBQ later. I need to check on my marinating leg of lamb and temperature of the beer. 🍺
You've missed the point. It's no longer about the willingness of either side to renegotiate or the skills of any of the various protagonists, there just isn't time to renegotiate a deal by 31st Oct. There will be 3 months left when Johnson becomes PM. And parliament isn't sitting for a good month of that. No chance. The choices on Oct 31st will be May's deal, no deal or (yet another) extension.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 13:13:13
Boris calling the French ‘turds’ should ease negotiations.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 14:43:56
How have the EU handled negotiations poorly? FFS the point I made was they have handled the negotiations brilliantly from their point of view. However with remainer mp's going to Brussels and telling them to keep pushing they, the EU couldn't fail. However they used most of the "nasty" quotes taking every opportunity to slag off the UK. Tusk  et al don't seem to be very pleasant people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 14:49:05
You've missed the point. It's no longer about the willingness of either side to renegotiate or the skills of any of the various protagonists, there just isn't time to renegotiate a deal by 31st Oct. There will be 3 months left when Johnson becomes PM. And parliament isn't sitting for a good month of that. No chance. The choices on Oct 31st will be May's deal, no deal or (yet another) extension.

Another extension it is, which I alluded to. Although as you rightly say, there is little or no chance to renegotiate ‘thedeal’ before 31/10 don’t think there are no more talks going on. The EU are worried make no mistake about that. 1) if and it is a big if we grow a pair and walk. 2) if and again it is a big if BJ to JH has the full backing of parliament to sit down and tell them if they want to extend we will go with it on the proviso that the deal is reworked in some way or 1) is our default position. The irresistible force or the immovable object?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 14:52:53
Who or what is Combe down FFS?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 14:57:36
Got a selfie of me and Boris in Southsea last thursday He seems quite a personable chap! Surprisingly he was very keen to respect the result of the referendum and leave the EU asap.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 15:34:16
Surprisingly he was very keen to respect the result of the referendum and leave the EU asap.

How is that in any way 'surprising'?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 16:47:05
How have the EU handled negotiations poorly? FFS the point I made was they have handled the negotiations brilliantly from their point of view.
What do you expect them to do? Roll over and accept all the Leavers' demands (which should be none as, as we all know, all Leavers voted leave and that means leaving without negotiating a deal because they need us more than we need them)?

However with remainer mp's going to Brussels and telling them to keep pushing they, the EU couldn't fail. However they used most of the "nasty" quotes taking every opportunity to slag off the UK. Tusk  et al don't seem to be very pleasant people.
No, they have, on occasions, pointed out the misconceptions, and incompetence, of the UK negotiators. Each one that tried and failed to carry out the "piece of cake" negotiations and who slagged off the EU for refusing to give us that piece of cake and let us eat it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 16:48:43
Got a selfie of me and Boris in Southsea last thursday He seems quite a personable chap!
Most conmen are, it's how they get away with it. Lots of people apparently found Mike Diamandis very personable too - didn't make him any less of a shifty wanker.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 16:51:38
Another extension it is, which I alluded to.
My post was a reply to you disagreeing with me saying that May's deal was the only deal available if you want to leave by Oct 31st. Now you're agreeing? Make your mind up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 16:55:35
It's why the Tories will vote him in as their new leader. They know his bumbling buffoon persona, carefully crafted over the last 15 years or so, makes him popular with the voters and gives them their only real hope of winning an increasingly likely General Election. Underneath that bumbling buffoon persona, as most people who really know him will attest, is a nasty cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Saturday, June 29, 2019, 19:16:12
My post was a reply to you disagreeing with me saying that May's deal was the only deal available if you want to leave by Oct 31st. Now you're agreeing? Make your mind up.

The only deal if you want to leave with one?is May's deal, the deal has been voted down everytime, so its not going to fly.
The eussr will not offer anything else than the remain deal so, we can.
(A) leave on world trade terms as per the referendum.
(B) Ask for another extension and another extension then ignore the referendum saying its impossible to leave.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Sunday, June 30, 2019, 08:34:58
The only deal if you want to leave with one?is May's deal, the deal has been voted down everytime, so its not going to fly.
The eussr will not offer anything else than the remain deal so, we can.
(A) leave on world trade terms as per the referendum.
(B) Ask for another extension and another extension then ignore the referendum saying its impossible to leave.


It was all so clearly explained and agreed upon at the time
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DVXKEG4X0AEf8Wd.jpg)

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Sunday, June 30, 2019, 11:29:58
Also leave on world trade terms wasn't on the referendum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Sunday, June 30, 2019, 15:20:40
Also leave on world trade terms wasn't on the referendum.

No it just said leave. If world trade is what's left after we leave, then that's what it is FFS.
The one question that wasn't on the ballot paper was not leaving if we don't have a deal.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
Its not multi-choice or I want something different because I don't like the result.
Leave won end of just like it would be if reamin had won.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, June 30, 2019, 16:45:38
Oooh, you got a nice big chomp there donkey :)   :fishing:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Sunday, June 30, 2019, 17:01:31
Leave won end of just like it would be if reamin had won.

Won what?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Sunday, June 30, 2019, 17:17:04
……………..Leave won end of just like it would be if reamin had won.
Wrong again

"In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way". Nigel Farage.

I know you were paying close attention to everything before the vote, but just sayin'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, July 1, 2019, 10:09:17
Nigel's quite the snowflake isn't he?

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/jul/01/nigel-farage-furious-over-tv-show-assassinating-neil-fromage-year-of-the-rabbit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 1, 2019, 10:47:15
I'll put it on the viewing list


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, July 1, 2019, 11:00:28
If you missed out on Gammonbury this year, here's a bizarre extract

https://twitter.com/MartinDaubney/status/1145360597351055360?s=09

Wondering if any TEF posters can regale us with their first hand experience of the Brexit Party rally?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 1, 2019, 11:08:19
I assume the curfew was about 9:30 (with Horlix on exit) and the rally stopped for a bit while the Archers was boradcast.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, July 1, 2019, 11:32:04
Elsewhere, job losses in the North East from the suppliers of Burgundy passports (that could've been blue all along) have been announced at 170.

These are the sort of job losses that are now commonly described as "worthwhile", even by former Conservative Remoaners like Hunt.

What's more, if No Dealers have their way, the UK will be paying tariffs on our new blue passports imported from the more competitive Dutch-German supplier.  The main objective of course remains to secure the approval of the 100k+ Conservative Party members.





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Monday, July 1, 2019, 11:40:39
......new blue passports imported from the more competitive Dutch-German supplier.
Brexiteers, putting the Great back in to Britain.... ::)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, July 1, 2019, 12:14:11
I never thought that, within my lifetime, I'd see the Tories abandon all attempts to be recognised as the party of business.  Even if they do manage to squeeze through the next few months, they are finished now in the longer term.  A Tory party that looks the voting public in the eye and tells them that job cuts are sacrifice worth making at a political altar no longer has a purpose.  It's the slowest of crashes, but it's unfolding right in front of us.

There are so many elephants jostling for position in the 'no deal' room that no one, least of all the EU's team of negotiators, seriously believes the 'no deal' bluster of both Tory party leadership candidates.  Prospects for a further referendum as the only way out of this are going up by the week.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 1, 2019, 12:41:43
No we have reached the promising ever person a kitten to all for voting for them stage, both Johnson and Hunt have apparently uncovered a magic money forest!  Tax cuts yet billions being spunked left right and centre.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, July 1, 2019, 12:47:42
It's completely nuts.  In order to 'deliver Brexit', they have to start doing the very opposite of what their own party has been about for years.  It's just the same with the union.  If Scotland leaves and Ireland unites, it's a price worth paying.  Odd times for the Conservative & Unionist Party.  It's almost as if no-one has tried to think about what the end game is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, July 1, 2019, 12:48:34
Nigel's quite the snowflake isn't he?

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/jul/01/nigel-farage-furious-over-tv-show-assassinating-neil-fromage-year-of-the-rabbit

You'd think it must be time for a Spitting Image revival.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 1, 2019, 13:17:02
Elsewhere, job losses in the North East from the suppliers of Burgundy passports (that could've been blue all along) have been announced at 170.

These are the sort of job losses that are now commonly described as "worthwhile", even by former Conservative Remoaners like Hunt.

What's more, if No Dealers have their way, the UK will be paying tariffs on our new blue passports imported from the more competitive Dutch-German supplier.  The main objective of course remains to secure the approval of the 100k+ Conservative Party members.


This is why all the bullshit about bringing the country together after no-deal won’t work: Nobody who actually loses their job or business is going to sit back and say ‘ah well, it was worth it to keep the Tory Party together and for my blue passport I can’t afford to use’.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 1, 2019, 13:17:39
If you missed out on Gammonbury this year, here's a bizarre extract

https://twitter.com/MartinDaubney/status/1145360597351055360?s=09

Wondering if any TEF posters can regale us with their first hand experience of the Brexit Party rally?


Supported by a new British version of the Volkischer Beobachter

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/nig...4w8JYsDmIHepZECPbiNfy3hFU3IwyCEBGfNHVkvhR0sz4


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 1, 2019, 13:29:26
A Tory party that looks the voting public in the eye and tells them that job cuts are sacrifice worth making at a political altar no longer has a purpose.  It's the slowest of crashes, but it's unfolding right in front of us.

It's nothing new.... whole communities were sacrificed on the altar during the 80's.  The Tories are still the party of capital, land owners and foreign oligarchs looking for a good arms deal.

There is a certain irony that the leading Brexit voting areas like Swindon, suffered job cuts and the loss of traditional industries in the 80's and so wil be the worse affected by Brexit.  It was assumed people voted to become poorer in these as they felt "left behind" and poor anyway so nothing to lose.   Sadly they believed the snake oil salesmen and have plenty to lose.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, July 1, 2019, 13:41:56
No we have reached the promising ever person a kitten to all for voting for them stage, both Johnson and Hunt have apparently uncovered a magic money forest!  Tax cuts yet billions being spunked left right and centre.


I leave the left:right arguments about public spending and taxation levels to the truly "political"

But surely the Conservatives recognise that the "war chest" about which their prospective leaders now talk of as available for "no deal" is nothing other than increased government borrowing.

Why not fcucking call it that?  Are they ashamed of their new-found, "socialist" rhetoric?









Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, July 1, 2019, 18:20:49
But surely the Conservatives recognise that the "war chest" about which their prospective leaders now talk of as available for "no deal" is nothing other than increased government borrowing.

Why not fcucking call it that?  Are they ashamed of their new-found, "socialist" rhetoric?
Not to mention the fact they're spending the same money (at least) twice. Both are talking about "headroom" to fund their increased spending plus tax reductions, but that "headroom" is the "war chest" set aside for the No Deal Brexit they both say they're prepared for and that many of their supporters actively want. Can't spend it on all your expensive bribes and then find there's no rainy day money left when it turns out you can't renegotiate the withdrawal agreement inside a couple of months - that money will all be burned up on No Deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, July 1, 2019, 19:12:29
Sorry to go all local (for me), but just read what Trump said when asked about the Busing Policy used in the USA to breakdown segregation in schools in the 70's and 80's.  It appears he had no idea what it was, so instead of taking a moment or try and sidestep it, he went for the following answer:

"Well, it has been something that they've done for a long period of time. I mean, you know, there aren't that many ways you're going to get people to schools."

Sterling effort, go full ignorance and assume you have just been asked a question about good ways to get kids to school in the morning!  As a sort of innocent bystander, he is a gift that keeps on giving.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, July 1, 2019, 19:48:02
Can you imagine the chats he must have with Boris?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, July 1, 2019, 21:17:20
Sorry to go all local (for me), but just read what Trump said when asked about the Busing Policy used in the USA to breakdown segregation in schools in the 70's and 80's.  It appears he had no idea what it was, so instead of taking a moment or try and sidestep it, he went for the following answer:

"Well, it has been something that they've done for a long period of time. I mean, you know, there aren't that many ways you're going to get people to schools."

Sterling effort, go full ignorance and assume you have just been asked a question about good ways to get kids to school in the morning!  As a sort of innocent bystander, he is a gift that keeps on giving.

It's like an experiment to see whether a country can.manage without a head of state for 4 years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Monday, July 1, 2019, 22:17:06
That is a kid who hasn’t revised for his GCSEs, clearly has no fucking clue what he’s on about but has tried to blag it anyway. 0 marks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 2, 2019, 09:01:33
Not to mention the fact they're spending the same money (at least) twice. Both are talking about "headroom" to fund their increased spending plus tax reductions, but that "headroom" is the "war chest" set aside for the No Deal Brexit they both say they're prepared for and that many of their supporters actively want. Can't spend it on all your expensive bribes and then find there's no rainy day money left when it turns out you can't renegotiate the withdrawal agreement inside a couple of months - that money will all be burned up on No Deal.

The fact that we are now setting aside money to have to bail out sections of our own economy due to our own actions is possibly a new high for Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 2, 2019, 09:46:45
This is gold for the carrier bag on his head at least.... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48830210


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, July 2, 2019, 10:15:02
The fact that we are now setting aside money to have to bail out sections of our own economy due to our own actions is possibly a new high for Brexit.

I like how they are setting aside cash for farmers and fishers. The ones that voted for Brexit. I get the need to continue to produce in the UK, just irks me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, July 2, 2019, 10:17:24
I like how they are setting aside cash for farmers and fishers. The ones that voted for Brexit. I get the need to continue to produce in the UK, just irks me.

Problem being that you cannot do so according to WTO rules.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, July 2, 2019, 10:18:36
Problem being that you cannot do so according to WTO rules.

Really. Oh. i'd laugh if it didn't mean prices going up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, July 2, 2019, 10:23:50
Really. Oh. i'd laugh if it didn't mean prices going up.

Johnson and Hunt make stuff up..... Hammond has already rubbished most of it.  I guess he knows as a grown up he'll be replaced as Chancellor so doesn't care.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 2, 2019, 10:24:21
Really. Oh. i'd laugh if it didn't mean prices going up.
I don't think prices will go up if you laugh


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, July 2, 2019, 10:32:17
haha.

oh shit, hope you're right


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 2, 2019, 10:42:34
haha.

oh shit, hope you're right
FFS, fiver for a coffee in Costa now. Thanks Batch  :badmood:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 2, 2019, 13:28:25
Mark Field weaving his magic once again:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jul/02/mark-field-calls-homeless-charity-a-magnet-for-undesirable

Presumably vying with Christopher Chope, the Hon Member for Upskirting, for the title of "Most Obnoxious Tory MP"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 2, 2019, 16:02:05
The superbly named "Dr David Bull" (he's not actually a Dr), a newly elected Brexit MEP whinging on twitter about it taking him quite a long time to get to Strasbourg. Or put another way "Bloke applies for job, bloke is successful in getting job, bloke complains about how long it takes him to get to the office to do the job". If you think the Tories have made a mess of Brexit, just wait until they're in coalition with this collection of fuckwits and weirdos after the next election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 4, 2019, 10:53:46
And people dare complain that politics has in many cases becoming an irrelevant side show....

https://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/17748707.cumbrian-mp-denies-39-squirrel-racist-39-commons-debate/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, July 4, 2019, 12:01:30
Yeah, its Brexit that's wasting commons time for the important stuff..

Who cares what colour the tree rats are.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 4, 2019, 12:41:21
Ann Widdecombe has just compared Brexit to the emancipation of slaves.  We're approaching the bottom now, I think.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 4, 2019, 12:51:48
Yeah, its Brexit that's wasting commons time for the important stuff..

Who cares what colour the tree rats are.

To be fair its quite a big thing up here as we still have a fair few reds around and the greys do take all the food and endanger them.

Actually it does sort of have some links to Brexit, what with the Greys being immigrants and not integrating fairly with the indigenous population, Farage must be fuming.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 4, 2019, 12:55:11
Ann Widdecombe has just compared Brexit to the emancipation of slaves.  We're approaching the bottom now, I think.

Makes you proud to be British doesn't it, a batty old virgin spouting nonsense

https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1146745014753603584


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 4, 2019, 13:20:00
To be fair its quite a big thing up here as we still have a fair few reds around and the greys do take all the food and endanger them.

Actually it does sort of have some links to Brexit, what with the Greys being immigrants and not integrating fairly with the indigenous population, Farage must be fuming.
Doubt it, he hates Reds and gets most of his support from Greys


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 4, 2019, 13:20:33
Ann Widdecombe has just compared Brexit to the emancipation of slaves.  We're approaching the bottom now, I think.
Oh no, we've got a long way to go yet. Just wait until she's Home Secretary


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 4, 2019, 13:59:45
Oh no, we've got a long way to go yet. Just wait until she's Home Secretary

I think the spellchecker caught you out there, assume you meant to type Homophobic Secretary?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 4, 2019, 14:15:10
It's rather odd, isn't it, that a woman who chose to go public years ago with the news that she had never had sex with anyone should make it her business to tell other people who they should be having sex with.  Seriously, who really identifies with a person like this?  Who listens to her poisonous ramblings and thinks 'Yes, she speaks for me.'  The bad dream just goes on & on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 4, 2019, 14:26:21
It's rather odd, isn't it, that a woman who chose to go public years ago with the news that she had never had sex with anyone should make it her business to tell other people who they should be having sex with.  Seriously, who really identifies with a person like this?  Who listens to her poisonous ramblings and thinks 'Yes, she speaks for me.'  The bad dream just goes on & on.

You lot in the south west bloody elected her, at least up here we only have Claire Fox the IRA sympathiser!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, July 4, 2019, 14:29:35
 Today I received an election publication from Buckland.... never having received one before for obvious reasons, I'd say it's a pretty good indicator of an imminent election  and Buckland rightly is worried.

 He's now jumped on the Johnson  :bandwagon:

 A good excuse to play a bit of Johnny Johnson and the Bandwagon

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYTqTPmTZ0o


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 4, 2019, 14:44:45
You lot in the south west bloody elected her, at least up here we only have Claire Fox the IRA sympathiser!

Ha!  You don't get to pin that one on me.  Hampshire/Surrey borders = South East...which sadly means I'm sort of responsible for Farage.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 4, 2019, 15:52:06
You lot in the south west bloody elected her, at least up here we only have Claire Fox the IRA sympathiser!
And friend of the paedos, don't forget she likes folks to be able to enjoy a bit of kiddie porn does Claire. No wonder she fits in so well with the far right


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, July 4, 2019, 15:59:35
Makes you proud to be British doesn't it, a batty old virgin spouting nonsense

https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1146745014753603584

You never see Ann Widdecombe, Legends Lounge or Sir Red Ken online at the same time. Just sayin’ :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 4, 2019, 16:35:17
One of the (many) things I'm not going to miss about Theresa May is the way she blankly ignores questions that she doesn't want to answer.  Excellent example of this in the last few minutes following her latest speech on the union (the UK one) in Scotland:

Q: Will no-deal end the union? And is that a risk worth taking?
A: May says she thinks the government can deliver Brexit and strengthen the union.

No attempt even to engage with the questions asked.  Infuriating.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: scillyred on Thursday, July 4, 2019, 16:45:33
You lot in the south west bloody elected her, at least up here we only have Claire Fox the IRA sympathiser!

Puffins always veer to the left  :wink:
Not guilty !


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 5, 2019, 20:58:13
Ah, so that's why Boris is going to scrap the sugar tax, less about rolling back the nanny state, more about doing favours for his mates. As usual

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/05/lynton-crosby-lobby-firm-works-high-sugar-drinks-brand


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Saturday, July 6, 2019, 09:23:12
Ah, so that's why Boris is going to scrap the sugar tax, less about rolling back the nanny state, more about doing favours for his mates. As usual

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/05/lynton-crosby-lobby-firm-works-high-sugar-drinks-brand

Another reason is that there are massive links between the big sugar industry and the Leave campaigns - Tate and Lyle have been lobbying for the cane industry in the EU for years, and were one of the few big companies to support Brexit because the EU prefers to promote its own beet industry. (British Sugar products use UK beet sugar from Norfolk rather than T & L's cane sugar)
Johnson's pals Lord Ashcroft, Aaron Banks and Andy Wigmore all have close ties to Belize's sugar industry, through residence and offshore tax havens.

https://thepinprick.com/2017/12/11/daydream-belizers-brexit-big-sugar-and-the-strange-case-of-andy-wigmore/ (https://thepinprick.com/2017/12/11/daydream-belizers-brexit-big-sugar-and-the-strange-case-of-andy-wigmore/)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Saturday, July 6, 2019, 09:36:11
Just voted for Boris. Ha Ha


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, July 7, 2019, 17:39:21
Just voted for Boris. Ha Ha

👍


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 8, 2019, 08:21:15
Just voted for Boris. Ha Ha

Good stuff! Not sure why you say Ha ha, not aware of anyone on either side of the political divide who doesn't want him to get the job.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Monday, July 8, 2019, 10:18:11
More worrying is that there are actually still some members of the Tory Party around..... ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 8, 2019, 10:26:54
More worrying is that there are actually still some members of the Tory Party around..... ;)

Official figures show legacy payments from dead Tory donors were double those from living members, with £1,697,000 paid in legacies versus £835,000 from memberships in 2017.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Monday, July 8, 2019, 11:24:49
 :eek: :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Monday, July 8, 2019, 11:34:21
Just voted for Boris. Ha Ha
So you've just voted for a man who wrote this for his Telegraph column:

"Britain is a great nation, a global force for good. It is surely a boon for the world and for Europe that she should be intimately engaged in the EU."
"Brexit would cause an "economic shock" that could lead to the breakup of the United Kingdom."
"Shut your eyes. Hold your breath. Think of Britain. Think of the rest of the EU. Think of the future, think of the desire of your children and your grandchildren to live and work in other European countries, to sell things there, to make friends and perhaps to find partners there."
"This is a market on our doorstep ready for further exploitation by British firms. The membership fee seems rather small for all that access. Why are we so determined to turn our back on it?"

You've been mugged!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 8, 2019, 11:40:49
So you've just voted for a man who wrote this for his Telegraph column:

"Britain is a great nation, a global force for good. It is surely a boon for the world and for Europe that she should be intimately engaged in the EU."
"Brexit would cause an "economic shock" that could lead to the breakup of the United Kingdom."
"Shut your eyes. Hold your breath. Think of Britain. Think of the rest of the EU. Think of the future, think of the desire of your children and your grandchildren to live and work in other European countries, to sell things there, to make friends and perhaps to find partners there."
"This is a market on our doorstep ready for further exploitation by British firms. The membership fee seems rather small for all that access. Why are we so determined to turn our back on it?"

You've been mugged!

I think its more like a grooming rather than a mugging insofar as its been carried out over a number of years. Create a problem, create the bogeyman to blame it on and then create the solution. Its very similar to these gangs which over time tell girls their families hate them, that they love them and will look after them.

A for the great Britain rhetoric presently being spouted this is an interesting read...
https://bylinetimes.com/2019/07/05/the-story-of-brexit-is-the-story-of-empire-how-has-a-fake-nostalgia-for-the-british-empire-helped-wrench-britain-from-europe/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Monday, July 8, 2019, 12:35:49
I think its more like a grooming rather than a mugging insofar as its been carried out over a number of years.
Grooming is a perfect analogy for the methods used to enable Leave's poisonous rhetoric to take hold, but my point was that in the past, Johnson has embraced the Remain campaign just as enthusiastically as Leave. He doesn't care whether we leave or stay, he'll follow whatever course suits his political ambitions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 8, 2019, 16:17:16
You have to admire the initiative.... https://bylinetimes.com/2019/07/05/brexit-party-parliamentary-candidates-another-money-making-scheme/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 09:47:22
You have to admire the initiative.... https://bylinetimes.com/2019/07/05/brexit-party-parliamentary-candidates-another-money-making-scheme/
Nigel does like to make a few quid out of the faithful. Again, along with being a sex offender, seems to be a common trait on the populist/far right fringe - Yaxley Lennon's living it large on the back of all those fighting fund donations too. Hopefully he'll be living rent free soon, courtesy of Her Maj.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 10:36:40
Nigel does like to make a few quid out of the faithful. Again, along with being a sex offender, seems to be a common trait on the populist/far right fringe - Yaxley Lennon's living it large on the back of all those fighting fund donations too. Hopefully he'll be living rent free soon, courtesy of Her Maj.

Nah, the waxy lemon has other plans....

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qarQuHebm3o/XSO9an8McGI/AAAAAAAAIJ4/JhENG20mWakswpLH0KERpVshvueLta0UwCLcBGAs/s640/tommy%2BRobinson%2BRefugee.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 10:37:50
I was going to post on this, but as is often the case Dunt puts it better and more succinctly....

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/07/08/trump-ambassador-revelations-brexiters-reveal-the-trump-love


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 10:37:56
Isn't he currently forbidden entry to the USA on account of his dodgy past and the dodgy passport he used last time?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 10:38:52
I was going to post on this, but as is often the case Dunt puts it better and more succinctly....

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/07/08/trump-ambassador-revelations-brexiters-reveal-the-trump-love

Not like the USA didn't do the same when Brown was PM (via Wikileaks).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 10:45:31
Corbyn (and Labour) now backing a second referendum. And remain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 10:48:05
Isn't he currently forbidden entry to the USA on account of his dodgy past and the dodgy passport he used last time?
Yes, one of many entries on his extensive criminal record. Wouldn't be surprised to see Trump go for it, though, exactly the kind of far-right publicity stunt he loves. Would be of a piece with him retweeting Britun Furst  videos


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 10:48:30
I see that Jeremy Corbyn is up to his old tricks again by calling for a people's vote and backing remain, in other words, we're here to make a deal. And if you don't give us exactly what we want, we'll give you exactly what you want instead.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 11:06:02
It's what he doesn't say that's causing a stir.  He fails (deliberately) to set out what Labour's position would be in the event of a general election.  Still trying to face both ways.

Most Remain supporters will see through this and will not be swayed by it.  But just enough will go along with it to split the Remain vote and let the Tories/Brexit party in to government again.  What a clown.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 11:06:38
Not like the USA didn't do the same when Brown was PM (via Wikileaks).

The US Ambassador doesn't bugger about with Memo's he does it on Camera! https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/1148161708999004161


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 11:10:25
It's what he doesn't say that's causing a stir.  He fails (deliberately) to set out what Labour's position would be in the event of a general election.  Still trying to face both ways.

Most Remain supporters will see through this and will not be swayed by it.  But just enough will go along with it to split the Remain vote and let the Tories/Brexit party in to government again.  What a clown.

Just as a point of information, Labour policy going into elections is decided at the Party Conference, not by the leader.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 11:30:50
OK, point taken.  But that being the case, why does Labour now not have an unequivocally Remain supporting position?  That is certainly the majority view of the Labour membership...so why was it not adopted at conference?  It's rather confusing still.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 11:33:36
A simple change of mind?

That, and it's a good time to start putting more pressure on Boris.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 11:38:08
OK, point taken.  But that being the case, why does Labour now not have an unequivocally Remain supporting position?  That is certainly the majority view of the Labour membership...so why was it not adopted at conference?  It's rather confusing still.

Conference season is in early autumn, so these statements are to be judged with that in mind... especially as there are plenty of reasons to think an election is imminent.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 11:38:27
Most Remain supporters will see through this and will not be swayed by it.  But just enough will go along with it to split the Remain vote and let the Tories/Brexit party in to government again.  What a clown.

Its actually not a particularly bright policy if you read it carefully, generally seems to be...

If Labour lose then they are pro remain, but if remainers are dumb enough to vote for them in numbers then they are pro a labour Brexit?

Those remainers are going to come flocking back to such a well crafted policy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 11:50:50
It's what he doesn't say that's causing a stir.  He fails (deliberately) to set out what Labour's position would be in the event of a general election.  Still trying to face both ways.

Most Remain supporters will see through this and will not be swayed by it.  But just enough will go along with it to split the Remain vote and let the Tories/Brexit party in to government again.  What a clown.

Load of old rubbish. We'll find out what the manifestos are if and when a general election is called. If Labour don't campaign on a menifesto of remain, remainers won't vote for them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 11:55:02
Labour will need to announce a GE Brexit policy within 24 hrs (or at the outside, days) of an election being called.  So it's probably fair to say that they already must know what that policy is.  So why not announce it now?  What's the advantage on withholding this very important detail?

As of now, I'm very suspicious of Corbyn.  It feels like he's trying to be far too clever.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 12:02:12

As of now, I'm very suspicious of Corbyn.  It feels like he's trying to be far too clever.

And as always failing miserably, Corbyn's latest appeal to Remain voters: "The only way to guarantee that Labour will support Remain is not to vote us in". Ultimately he has hit the sweet spot of electoral nothing. Brexiters will find too Remainy, Remainers too Brexity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 12:05:22
The next scheduled general election is May 2022. Standard Labour party procedure will be to hold a general conference the year before and have the party members decide the policy for the upcoming election.

I can't find any info on what the procedure is in the event of a snap election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 12:13:08
More here: https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1148273296825376768

Looks like Labour will run a general election campaign based on renegotiating the deal and then offer a referendum on that deal or remain.

Meh.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 12:17:10
The next scheduled general election is May 2022. Standard Labour party procedure will be to hold a general conference the year before and have the party members decide the policy for the upcoming election.


Thing is they are still failing to learn from the mistakes that Milliband (E) made, its all very well appealing to the party faithful and saying that we agree policy at conference, but that cuts no ice with the floating voter (especially those pro-remain) who have sat through Corbyns performance pre-referendum which was as enthusiastic about remain as a vegan is in McDonalds, then had to witness the machinations of the last year, which appear to fly in the face of the contrived stuff that was agreed at conference last time whilst it is well known that the three M's at the top of the Labour Party all pro remain on a simple ideological level.

I fear that sadly the ship has sailed for Labour with Corbyn at the helm with anyone who is pro remain.


I can't find any info on what the procedure is in the event of a snap election.

Milne tells Corbyn what to do I assume.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 10, 2019, 16:04:37
So the UK ambassador to the US has effectively been forced out on Trump's orders after BJ made it clear he wouldn't back him. Pathetic, but a good warning of exactly where a No Deal Brexit will leave us - wholly dependent on the whims and tempers of a senile manchild and his tantrums. And Boris Johnson won't be able to bend over for him fast enough. So much for "taking back control".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, July 10, 2019, 17:33:25
So the UK ambassador to the US has effectively been forced out on Trump's orders after BJ made it clear he wouldn't back him. Pathetic, but a good warning of exactly where a No Deal Brexit will leave us - wholly dependent on the whims and tempers of a senile manchild and his tantrums. And Boris Johnson won't be able to bend over for him fast enough. So much for "taking back control".

Trump wants Fartage for the job. I suppose it may have a certain appeal... have him on the inside pissing out rather than the outside pissing in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 10, 2019, 19:49:41
Trump wants Fartage for the job. I suppose it may have a certain appeal... have him on the inside pissing out rather than the outside pissing in.
Trump wants anyone who'll kiss his arse for the job. Any job. But it's probably just a coincidence that the leaks were first published in an article by Isabelle Oakshott, known as a hard Brexiteer, and good mates with Farage and Arron Banks (she was ghost writer for the Banks/Farage victory lap book "Bad Boys of Brexit"). And that Farage has previously suggested himself for the job, and was first out of the traps to demand that Darroch be fired and replaced with someone more amenable to the Trump regime. Like himself, for example. Which is similar logic to suggesting that Arthur Scargill should have been our ambassador to the Soviet Union or Abu Hamza to Iran.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 08:48:48
Trump's inability to accept any criticism is extraordinary.  He's even turned on Fox News.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 08:56:30
A lot of people seem to think he is playing sophisticated mind games to draw attention to his character rather than some of his policies. I don't agree with them. I think he's just an oversensitive, ignorant idiot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 09:01:05
So the UK ambassador to the US has effectively been forced out on Trump's orders after BJ made it clear he wouldn't back him. Pathetic, but a good warning of exactly where a No Deal Brexit will leave us - wholly dependent on the whims and tempers of a senile manchild and his tantrums. And Boris Johnson won't be able to bend over for him fast enough. So much for "taking back control".

(https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/66517032_2371125856460138_7689602922979524608_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_oc=AQkxNuANPuAXfMGKtZcvLViU2drmKnSF1aSWcWMq-m64FbpwLsVaxD8dv31XPZTmL54&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=78853e2a85c35c37b7d3611e0ab8fb42&oe=5DC300FD)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 09:11:00
Trump wants anyone who'll kiss his arse for the job. Any job. But it's probably just a coincidence that the leaks were first published in an article by Isabelle Oakshott, known as a hard Brexiteer, and good mates with Farage and Arron Banks (she was ghost writer for the Banks/Farage victory lap book "Bad Boys of Brexit"). And that Farage has previously suggested himself for the job, and was first out of the traps to demand that Darroch be fired and replaced with someone more amenable to the Trump regime. Like himself, for example. Which is similar logic to suggesting that Arthur Scargill should have been our ambassador to the Soviet Union or Abu Hamza to Iran.

Thing is to release this information someone has broken the OSA, Oakeshott (who in addition to your description is also Lord Ashcrofts representative on earth and co-wrote the hatchet job on Cameron) will know her source and I assume that if she knew the story would breach the OSA she is liable and will have to reveal the source?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 09:30:30
Thing is to release this information someone has broken the OSA, Oakeshott (who in addition to your description is also Lord Ashcrofts representative on earth and co-wrote the hatchet job on Cameron) will know her source and I assume that if she knew the story would breach the OSA she is liable and will have to reveal the source?
I'd certainly hope not. There's a long standing tradition that journalists are not forced to reveal their sources, to protect the integrity of the freedom of the press. While Oakeshott's source in this instance doesn't deserve any protection, it's not worth sacrificing the overarching principle for


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 09:44:10
Sure, but there must be limitations? What's the point of having the OSA if people get to use the press as a loophole? Want to leak some national secrets? Just pass it on through the Sun and you're protected!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 09:44:58
I'd certainly hope not. There's a long standing tradition that journalists are not forced to reveal their sources, to protect the integrity of the freedom of the press. While Oakeshott's source in this instance doesn't deserve any protection, it's not worth sacrificing the overarching principle for

Not sure freedom of the press applies when the OSA has been breached, isn't that getting towards treason territory in legal terms?

Nowt will come of it anyway, if one looks at the vigour the met are expelling to investigate the Leave EU funding one can be sure i will be brushed under the carpet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 10:00:09
The cartoon above very clearly illustrates the fallacy of 'taking back control'.  More correctly, Brexit involves ceding control to which ever future trading partner we try to do a deal with on our own.

What will be the terms of a US trade deal?  They will be whatever the US decides they will be.  It will almost certainly involve opening up the NHS to commercial exploitation by US healthcare providers.

What will be the terms of a Chinese trade deal?  They will be whatever China decides they will be.  It will almost certainly involve keeping quiet about what's going on in Hong Kong, and agreeing to ignore human rights abuses.

What will be the terms of a trade deal with India?  They will be whatever India decides they will be.  It will almost certainly involve agreeing to loosen immigration requirements to the UK for Indian citizens.

Brexit will make the UK everyone else's bitch.  We will take back control of nothing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 10:13:17
But they need us more than we need them..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 10:14:10
Not sure freedom of the press applies when the OSA has been breached, isn't that getting towards treason territory in legal terms?
And there you're on *very* sticky ground. Cf the OSA cases in the 80s (Clive Ponting, Sara Wosserface) and more recently, the Met using anti-terror legislation to attempt to criminalise journalism they found inconvenient/embarassing


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 10:17:45
I should have added...

What will be the terms of a trade deal with the EU?  They will be whatever the EU decides they will be.  It will almost certainly involve honouring the Good Friday Agreement in the form of the backstop written in to the existing WA, maintaining EU standards and agreeing to pay in to the EU budget.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 10:19:25
I should have added...

What will be the terms of a trade deal with the EU?  They will be whatever the EU decides they will be.  It will almost certainly involve honouring the Good Friday Agreement in the form of the backstop written in to the existing WA, maintaining EU standards and agreeing to pay in to the EU budget.
But ... but ... French cheese, BMW cars, erm Italian handbags, erm Dunkirk spirit, 1944 and things


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 11:36:46
And there you're on *very* sticky ground. Cf the OSA cases in the 80s (Clive Ponting, Sara Wosserface) and more recently, the Met using anti-terror legislation to attempt to criminalise journalism they found inconvenient/embarassing

Who knows and I say likely irrelevant as it will just be brushed away, I suppose the other issue is that if old bill decide to investigate will she have to reveal her source?

I should have added...

What will be the terms of a trade deal with the EU?  They will be whatever the EU decides they will be.  It will almost certainly involve honouring the Good Friday Agreement in the form of the backstop written in to the existing WA, maintaining EU standards and agreeing to pay in to the EU budget.

If we need the pressure of the EU to make our government honour the Good Friday Agreement we are more morally bankrupt as a country than I ever imagined.

You look at politics this morning, the absolute state of it. You look at Labour: a moral chasm. You look at Tories: architects of national humiliation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 11:40:00
Tommy Robinson jailed for 9 months for contempt of Court.

Gammons not happy.

(Probably should post this in things that make you happy / mildly amuse you)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 11:46:38
Some of his supporters are cause for the things that annoy you thread.

There's differences of opinion and all that, but some people are just plain wrong in their 'facts'

"He didn't break the law" - Yes he did
"He exposed the pedos"  - No he did not
"The press broke the law as well" - No they did not

And so on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 11:57:50
Some of his supporters are cause for the things that annoy you thread.

There's differences of opinion and all that, but some people are just plain wrong in their 'facts'

"He didn't break the law" - Yes he did
"He exposed the pedos"  - No he did not
"The press broke the law as well" - No they did not
Not only did he NOT expose the paedos, but that he risked jeapordising their trial and thereby actually setting them free. That is why we have a Contempt of Court Act. Also worth asking where his "brave journalism" was when this lot were in court:

Jack Renshaw (above) – EDL, BNP, National Action: four counts of inciting a child to engage in sexual activity.
Wayne Kirby – Tommy Robinson supporter: served six years after being convicted for rape in 2007.
Bradley Daniel Alford, EDL Supporter: 6 yrs, indecent photos, inciting a child to engage in sexual intercourse.
Kristopher Allan, SDL supporter: convicted for messages, images, and sexual contact involving a 13 year old.
Luke Atkinson, UKIP & Yorkshire EDL Supporter: jailed 4 yrs, 8 mths, grooming young teenagers.
Alan Boulter, EDL Supporter and all round racist: 20 mths, attempted grooming.
John Broomfield, EDL and British Freedom supporter: ‘making indecent images of children’ and inept mosque attack.
Dean Chambers, EDL & BNP supporter: 5 yrs, sexual assault.


Michael Coates AKA Micky Blue Eyes (above), NW Infidels: charged with 2 attempted rapes and other sex offences.
Bruce Cordwell, EDL: 3 yrs, 7 mths, grooming.
Michael Cowen, neo-Nazi: 3 yrs, child pornography.
Alan Thomas Ellis, Deeside EDL: convicted of sending texts of a sexual nature to a 14 year old girl.
Robert Ewing, EDL, BNP, NF supporter: grooming & murder of 15 yr old.


Ryan Fleming, National Action (above): 3 yrs, sexual activity with a child, his 2nd sexual offence.
Darren Francis, BNP, sexual relationship with 13 year old.


Christopher Gamlin, Britain First supporter (above): 21 mths, grooming & trying to incite a child into sexual activity.


Pete Gillett, EDL speaker (above): 18 years, multiple offences of rape and indecent assault on children.
Nigel Hesmondalgh, BNP: jailed for possessing a series of degrading photos and videos of children.
Dale Hewitt, EDL supporter: 10 years for multiple sex offences against teenage girls.
Ian Hindle, BNP, jailed for sexual activity with 14-year-old girls.
Mark Hogg, EDL: 9 months for sexual assault on a 14 year old.
Elliot Jones, EDL supporter and part of the self-styled ‘pedophile squad’ jailed for, err, pedophilia.
Mervyn Jones, North Wales Alliance/Combined Ex-Forces: guilty of rape, attempted rape, indecent assault.
Shaun Jones, Liverpool Scouse Nationalists: jailed for grooming and raping a 12 year old girl.
Michael Kinnear, BNP and EDL supporter: jailed for sexually abusing a 7 year old.
Gavin Leist, BNP, child porn.


Leigh MacMillan with racist chum David Coppin
Leigh MacMillan, EDL: convicted of three counts of indecent assault, two of indecency with a child and one of attempted rape. Jailed for a total of 17 years.
Michael McQueenie, EDL Blackburn: pleaded guilty of two counts of rape of a 14-year-old girl and sexual assault.
Brett Moses EDL Hull: 12-month prison sentence for sexual grooming.
Paul O’Brien, Blood & Honour fascist: 9 yrs, rape, sexual assault.
Stephen Payne SDL supporter: convicted of grooming a 13 year old.
Richard Price, former EDL leader: four counts of making indecent images of children.
Michael Roles, BF supporter: 18 yrs child rape.
Roderick Rowley, BNP: child porn and sexually abusing 10-year-old girl.
Mark Ryley, Britain First, Infidels of Britain & Nick Griffin supporter: 30 years for multiple sexual offences against young girls.


Mark ‘Archie’ Sleman (above), EDL:  kidnap & attempted rape of 10 yr old.
James Swindlehurst, White Man March supporter, photographed with the North West Infidels: jailed for 20 years for 13 counts of child rape.
Trevor Vinson, EDL, Britain First & Jayda Fransen supporter: 21 years for repeated sexual abuse and making obscene images of 3 year old girl.
Andrew Wells, BNP: jailed for sexual activity with 14-year-old girls.
Matthew Woodward, Deeside EDL: charged with child pornography and soliciting a 13 year old for photographs.
All sexual abuse is wrong and has nothing to do with ethnicity, race, or religion. Please pass this information around.

https://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2019/04/03/2019-far-right-sex-offenders-list/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 11:58:43
If we need the pressure of the EU to make our government honour the Good Friday Agreement we are more morally bankrupt as a country than I ever imagined.

Yes, x 1,000.  That it falls, seemingly, now to the EU to uphold the GFA makes me cringe with shame.  Some of our politicians should learn a little history (and particularly Irish history), and then take a moment to consider how others see us.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 18:08:37
I'd certainly hope not. There's a long standing tradition that journalists are not forced to reveal their sources, to protect the integrity of the freedom of the press. While Oakeshott's source in this instance doesn't deserve any protection, it's not worth sacrificing the overarching principle for

I disagree.  This had no element whatsoever of whistleblowing in the public interest.   It was a shitty little piece exposing a private opinion with no motivation other than to sell a few newspapers and to cause mischief.

There would be no overarching principle sacrificed in any way if the source and Oakeshott both ended up in prison.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 11, 2019, 19:24:00
I disagree.  This had no element whatsoever of whistleblowing in the public interest.   It was a shitty little piece exposing a private opinion with no motivation other than to sell a few newspapers and to cause mischief.
Oh I completely agree. But it's difficult to differentiate (in law) and I'd have thought that Oakeshott at least could argue that it was in the public interest. She's wrong, but there's probably an argument there. No such defence is open to the leaker however.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, July 13, 2019, 12:52:41
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48973861

This was precisely the kind of thing I was concerned about. To their credit, both Hunt and Johnson have piled in in defence of freedom of the press. A free press keeping govt accountable is one of the key pillars of democracy, along with an independent judiciary. It's why Trump and the far right hate both.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Saturday, July 13, 2019, 13:15:34
I read somewhere that only around 10% of the world's population has access to a "free press".

The free press index for 2019 has GB ranked at 33 which is piss poor.
I can't post the link but will try and dig it out or if someone can lend a hand in the meantime.

Taking Russia as an example the degree of untruth reported through the media coupled with state control of the internet is appalling.
The freedom of the web is something that is gradually being eroded by legislation across the globe, our own included.

Edit
Here are the links. No reason to doubt the intentions or aims of the source.

https://rsf.org/en/united-kingdom

The US in at no 48

https://rsf.org/en/united-states

And languishing at 149 of 180.

https://rsf.org/en/russia



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Saturday, July 13, 2019, 17:54:43
I'm not sure whether these guys are in the clear yet
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/28/northern-ireland-judge-likens-journalist-arrests-police-state-conduct-loughinisland


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 15, 2019, 07:51:42
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48973861

This was precisely the kind of thing I was concerned about. To their credit, both Hunt and Johnson have piled in in defence of freedom of the press. A free press keeping govt accountable is one of the key pillars of democracy, along with an independent judiciary. It's why Trump and the far right hate both.

Oh come off it Johnson and Hunt could not give a shit about freedom of the press unless the leaks suit their objectives, do you imagine for one nano second they would be so strident about matters if the leak was damaging to Corbyn.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 17, 2019, 16:55:20
Ha ha, this is superb - Farage claiming the new EU president lacks legitimacy because she only won by 52% of the vote. Quite right, Nigel, what kind of idiot would claim to have a mandate on such a narrow margin?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-ursula-von-der-leyen-brexit-party-vote-eu-commission-juncker-a9008501.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, July 17, 2019, 17:18:02
As it happens she got 54% of the votes cast as well, due to the Abstentions.  What was Leave vs. the total electorate?

I'm not suggesting the Leave vote isn't legitimate by the way, just supporting the fact he is a cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Wednesday, July 17, 2019, 17:45:35
At least in the UK referendum we had a choice of two options.
I thought only banana republics were given a choice of one despot to vote for?
Those who have not/do not accept the result of the referendum should be very careful what they wish for with the EU moving more quickly towards a federal state.
I voted remain in the referendum but accept the desire of the majority.
We must leave or accept no future election has legitimacy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, July 17, 2019, 19:47:56
or in the choice of Boris, no vote


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Wednesday, July 17, 2019, 20:09:59
Boris was elected as an MP in a general election as per our un- written constitution.
The Conservative party with support from unionists was able to form a government.
The elected leader of the party forming the UK government is prime minister.
I recently voted for Boris to be the next leader of said party as I am a member.
Simples.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, July 17, 2019, 20:12:53
Actually, doesn't the Leader of the Majority seek the PM role from the Queen.  She has the right to say no and ask someone else if she likes.  She hasn't wielded this power in over 40 years mind.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, July 17, 2019, 20:24:51
I'm not arguing it's not constitutionally correct. I'm saying he has no mandate.

You can protest you vote for the party, not the leader. But a) that's balls (also see Labour) and b) the shift towards no deal away from negotiations means things have somewhat changed since the last GE. Boris can pretend he wants a deal, but there's no time before his bs deadline.

And no I don't think a GE would solve the brexit impass.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Wednesday, July 17, 2019, 20:56:02
I voted remain for personal reasons not because of project fear.
Much of the focus on no deal and the Irish backstop is a construct by those members of the establishment who have never accepted the result of the referendum and wish to find a way to reverse Brexit.
In truth we do not know the effect a clean break from the EU will have until it happens.

I have lost all faith in our form of parliamentary democracy and self serving members of both houses of parliament.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Wednesday, July 17, 2019, 20:57:29
Don't even get me started on Sir Vince Cable or Lord Adonis! Ha Ha.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 18, 2019, 13:14:52
I have lost all faith in our form of parliamentary democracy and self serving members of both houses of parliament.
No wonder you voted for Johnson then, he's made it very clear he's quite happy to break our parliamentary democracy to get his own way. Our democracy is far from perfect but it's better than rule of diktat according to one man's whims.

Speaking of which, I see he's still at his old shtick where he started his career, making up shit about EU "red tape" that isn't:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/18/boris-johnson-claims-about-kippers-fishy-brussels-says

From bendy bananas to refrigerated fish, Boris just can't help making shit up. The sad thing is I don't think he even knows or cares what's true any more.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 18, 2019, 13:29:26
As it happens she got 54% of the votes cast as well, due to the Abstentions.  What was Leave vs. the total electorate?


Something like 36% rings a bell.

Boris was elected as an MP in a general election as per our un- written constitution.
The Conservative party with support from unionists was able to form a government.
The elected leader of the party forming the UK government is prime minister.
I recently voted for Boris to be the next leader of said party as I am a member.
Simples.

Will he be able to command a majority, for that he needs to get the DUP on side again, in addition he really needs to hold Brecon, offset that against the fact that a number of Tory MP's have already suggested that they may resign the whip if he becomes PM?

There is possibly the case that Mrs May will have to go to Brenda and note that her party cannot show a parliamentary majority and allow Brenda to seek other options, of which there are none so likely an election beckons*.

Likewise if Johnson tries to suspend parliament (thankfully looking less likely after earlier) he would not have a cat in hells chance of getting a Queens Speech through when he finally agreed for democracy to start again so again we end up at an election*.

Finally if he cannot get May's deal through and he cannot get no deal through he wil have to go cap in hand to the EU for another extension (if they will consider that!) he has immediately pissed off both the hard brexiteers and the sensible wing of the Tory Party so can he command his own party, at which stage an election beckons.*

In all three scenarios will be very interesting to see what ticket re Brexit either of the blue or red sides fall on after the results of the EU's and locals earlier this year.


And no I don't think a GE would solve the brexit impasse.

I would have said that a month back, not so sure now? The remain parties do seem to have got their shit together in Brecon avoiding splitting the remain vote, if you look at the polling of Farage Ltd their gains seem to very closely follow Tory losses so there i possibly a battleground there which could cancel one another out Plus the kids are unlikely to fall for Corbyns ambiguity/bullshit a second time, add in natural demography suggests that the Brexit vote will have dropped by way of natural wastage offset by the younger mainly remain vote.

Its going to be interesting whatever happens, watching the death spiral of the Tories and Labour come to its conclusion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, July 18, 2019, 13:41:11

Speaking of which, I see he's still at his old shtick where he started his career, making up shit about EU "red tape" that isn't:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/18/boris-johnson-claims-about-kippers-fishy-brussels-says

From bendy bananas to refrigerated fish, Boris just can't help making shit up. The sad thing is I don't think he even knows or cares what's true any more.
Point is that if the 52% consists of (often willing) morons that believe the lying liar that UK RED TAPE is something imposed on us by Martians or the EU or whoever, then the lie becomes true - in today's Brexitocracy


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Thursday, July 18, 2019, 14:24:23
What about offering a balanced view of politicians ability to lie? One issue I have with virtue signallers(among many others) is their selective choice of comments/statements to criticise.
Anyone remember these hum dingers? :-
Cleggy and co "will never agree to increase tuition fees"
All remoaner mp's "  I accept the result of the referendum but ...."
Corbyns crew of Marxists " all our spending promises are fully costed...."
I accept I have unpopular views(on here) but I always try to listen to other points of view. Maybe others could try to be more equable!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 18, 2019, 14:44:39
So "My proven liar is better than the other liars". Not a great way to choose the PM is it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, July 18, 2019, 15:19:32
What about offering a balanced view of politicians ability to lie? One issue I have with virtue signallers(among many others) is their selective choice of comments/statements to criticise.
Anyone remember these hum dingers? :-
Cleggy and co "will never agree to increase tuition fees"
All remoaner mp's "  I accept the result of the referendum but ...."
Corbyns crew of Marxists " all our spending promises are fully costed...."
I accept I have unpopular views(on here) but I always try to listen to other points of view. Maybe others could try to be more equable!
That election promise was made before the Lib Dem Treasury Secretary, David Laws, picked up the note by his outgoing Labour counterpart, Liam Byrne:

Dear chief secretary, I'm afraid there is no money. Kind regards – and good luck! Liam

The tuition fees pledge was unwise and turned out to be an inaccurate prediction or broken promise, for sure.  It was not the type of factual lie beloved of Brexiters with Johnson's kipper nonsense being untrue as he uttered it.  Cheered to the rafters as he uttered it by the ignorant, the credulous or, these days, by those who care not one jot whether any statement is true or not, so long as it suits their Brexitist narrative.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Thursday, July 18, 2019, 15:21:10
That's why I fear democracy as I knew it is dead. I have lived through some pretty dark times but always felt the electorate had power. What a twat I am for not realising mp's and the political elite don't care about ordinary people.
This relates to Marxists, Racists and Far Righters.
Anarchy rules ok? Ps must have seen garden tax coming that would replace council tax as I live in a flat!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 18, 2019, 15:32:04
That's why I fear democracy as I knew it is dead.
So you decided to combat that by voting for a man who has promised he will suspend parliament and rule by diktat on a whim?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 18, 2019, 16:57:07
Ps must have seen garden tax coming that would replace council tax as I live in a flat!

Oh you have not fallen for the garden tax, Corbyn is the bogeyman nonsense have you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 18, 2019, 16:58:35
That election promise was made before the Lib Dem Treasury Secretary, David Laws, picked up the note by his outgoing Labour counterpart, Liam Byrne:

Dear chief secretary, I'm afraid there is no money. Kind regards – and good luck! Liam

The tuition fees pledge was unwise and turned out to be an inaccurate prediction or broken promise, for sure.  It was not the type of factual lie beloved of Brexiters with Johnson's kipper nonsense being untrue as he uttered it.  Cheered to the rafters as he uttered it by the ignorant, the credulous or, these days, by those who care not one jot whether any statement is true or not, so long as it suits their Brexitist narrative.


Speak for yourself sunshine, I for one will be proud to be led by a man shameless strong enough to be photographed bullshitting through his teeth whilst holding a packet of kippers!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_xGnRXXoAAZcVt.jpg:large)

God save the Queen!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Thursday, July 18, 2019, 17:03:50
It's not as if the leave deniers have used dirty tricks have they?

Obviously today's shenanigans in parliament are truly supportive of those that voted to leave the EU and indicates the true face of democracy. Once again you choose to be totally selective in your basic arguments focussing on the few not the many!



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 18, 2019, 17:05:07
It's not as if the leave deniers have used dirty tricks have they?

Obviously today's shenanigans in parliament are truly supportive of those that voted to leave the EU and indicates the true face of democracy. Once again you choose to be totally selective in your basic arguments focussing on the few not the many!



Who are you actually replying to, Jesus what is it with right wingers and being unable to use the quote facility!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Thursday, July 18, 2019, 17:28:37
It's not as if the leave deniers have used dirty tricks have they?

Obviously today's shenanigans in parliament are truly supportive of those that voted to leave the EU and indicates the true face of democracy. Once again you choose to be totally selective in your basic arguments focussing on the few not the many!



The fact is that one of the primary motivations, we were told, was to 'take back co trol' from the undemocratic EU and reinvest it in Parliament. When the Prime Minister in waiting suggests that he will resolve the impasse by taking control away from Parliament, then it is not surprising that Parliament fights back in any way it can.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, July 18, 2019, 18:12:16
Quote from: GosportRob
It's not as if the leave deniers have used dirty tricks have they?

Obviously today's shenanigans in parliament are truly supportive of those that voted to leave the EU and indicates the true face of democracy. Once again you choose to be totally selective in your basic arguments focussing on the few not the many!

dirty tricks?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Thursday, July 18, 2019, 19:08:13
It's not as if the leave deniers have used dirty tricks have they?

You're right. None of the leave deniers are currently under investigation by the National Crime Agency, or received multiple fines for breaking electoral law, or have employed tactics which breached Facebook personal data or are Persons of Interest to the CIA.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, July 18, 2019, 20:38:44
This new guy is on a par with SRK. Not seen that flan in a while, maybe this is his disguise!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Thursday, July 18, 2019, 22:22:37
I am not new to this forum just couldn't register for a while due to problems on the site.
I am not a disguised previous poster iteration.
I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion and would not resort to infantile name calling to try to denigrate others.
I lived and worked during a time that I thought certain politicians were left wing. I now see the error of my ways as we may soon have a quasi Marxist government.
I am not a flan or any other sort of foodstuff.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, July 19, 2019, 06:38:25
fair enough.

what dirty tricks have remain MPs used?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, July 19, 2019, 07:26:17
I am not new to this forum just couldn't register for a while due to problems on the site.
I am not a disguised previous poster iteration.
I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion and would not resort to infantile name calling to try to denigrate others.
I lived and worked during a time that I thought certain politicians were left wing. I now see the error of my ways as we may soon have a quasi Marxist government.
I am not a flan or any other sort of foodstuff.




You do have the whiff of a quiche though Gosport :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, July 19, 2019, 07:27:43
fair enough.

what dirty tricks have remain MPs used?

I’ll kick this one off.

Standing at the last general election pledging to their constituencies that they would uphold the leave decision.
Voting with the government of the day to have the vote in the first place with intention of letting it happen.
Not declaring financial links or direct payments from the EU or any of its agencies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 19, 2019, 07:52:10
I’ll kick this one off.

Standing at the last general election pledging to their constituencies that they would uphold the leave decision.
Voting with the government of the day to have the vote in the first place with intention of letting it happen.
Not declaring financial links or direct payments from the EU or any of its agencies.
Erm, none of those are "dirty tricks". They may be things you disapprove of, but it's not on a par with breaking electoral law or stealing people's private data to subvert a vote, for example


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, July 19, 2019, 08:19:10
Yeah ,that was my point. Its how our parliament works - for better or worse. Morally dubious/outrageous (in your view) but procedurally correct.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 19, 2019, 09:57:46
The fact is that one of the primary motivations, we were told, was to 'take back co trol' from the undemocratic EU and reinvest it in Parliament. When the Prime Minister in waiting suggests that he will resolve the impasse by taking control away from Parliament, then it is not surprising that Parliament fights back in any way it can.

This isn't new though is it, May tried to do exactly the same with the earlier Henry VIII rules which got voted down. This present government has used every trick possible to sideline parliament in the name of taking back control and has groomed a large part of the population to blindly facilitate it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 19, 2019, 09:59:53
I’ll kick this one off.

Standing at the last general election pledging to their constituencies that they would uphold the leave decision.
Voting with the government of the day to have the vote in the first place with intention of letting it happen.
Not declaring financial links or direct payments from the EU or any of its agencies.

Actually in the first case its the ERG and their ilk who have stopped the deal negotiated going through parliament. In addition to which leaving without a deal was not a policy or commitment advocated by either the Labour or Conservative 2017 Manifestos.

As for the last can you cite real examples please, and your thoughts on a comparison to the Russian money that funded leave would be helpful.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Friday, July 19, 2019, 10:28:21
When I used the term dirty tricks earlier in this thread I was in fact referring to the duplicity of both sides of the argument.

I don't agree with a single word that Vince Cable utters on Brexit BUT he is unambiguous clearly stating he does not agree that we should leave the EU and ergo wishes to revoke article 50.

However even though I voted leave I accept the result of the referendum. What really hacks me off is the manner in which Brexit wreckers from both sides of the house use meely mouth words to justify their actions rather than being honest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 19, 2019, 10:38:00
When I used the term dirty tricks earlier in this thread I was in fact referring to the duplicity of both sides of the argument.

I don't agree with a single word that Vince Cable utters on Brexit BUT he is unambiguous clearly stating he does not agree that we should leave the EU and ergo wishes to revoke article 50.

However even though I voted leave I accept the result of the referendum. What really hacks me off is the manner in which Brexit wreckers from both sides of the house use meely mouth words to justify their actions rather than being honest.

Unfortunately your stuff is so riddled with factual error and the usual right winger's paranoia and fantasy, it's very difficult to take seriously in any way...

thus to quote.....

Quote
I voted remain in the referendum but accept the desire of the majority.

Today....

Quote
even though I voted leave

It's all a bit SRK like who tells us one day, he's extremely wealthy having made money in the City, the next he lives in a council house.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cowley38 on Friday, July 19, 2019, 10:49:32
Unfortunately your stuff is so riddled with factual error and the usual right winger's paranoia and fantasy, it's very difficult to take seriously in any way...

thus to quote.....

Today....

It's all a bit SRK like who tells us one day, he's extremely wealthy having made money in the City, the next he lives in a council house.

From Reg - 'Unfortunately your stuff is so riddled with factual error'

From some of your comments thats  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :clap: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 19, 2019, 11:08:15
From Reg - 'Unfortunately your stuff is so riddled with factual error'

From some of your comments thats  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :clap: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

I'm more than happy to have my comments looked at for factual accuracy, similarly any opinions formed on those bases.

There's a lot on here over many years.... clearly in that span of time not everything will be spot on, nobody is perfect.

However, for example, trying to base your case for dismissing all my thoughts on the back of arguing that my saying that Jermaine McGlashan would be training with Town pre season, was somehow factually inaccurate based on your personal experience, was probably not the best start.

However I look forward to some forensic debate as the season unfolds.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cowley38 on Friday, July 19, 2019, 11:16:19
I'm more than happy to have my comments looked at for factual accuracy, similarly any opinions formed on those bases.

There's a lot on here over many years.... clearly in that span of time not everything will be spot on, nobody is perfect.

However, for example, trying to base your case for dismissing all my thoughts on the back of arguing that my saying that Jermaine McGlashan would be training with Town pre season, was somehow factually inaccurate based on your personal experience, was probably not the best start.

However I look forward to some forensic debate as the season unfolds.

Let it go!!!

My discussion was based on my EXPERIENCE in league football!!

Not sat in front of a keyboard like a sad keyboard warrior!!!

Yes with regard Mcglashen i was wrong on the start of pre season - however Mcglashen , Diagouraga were not on the Team bonding La Manga trip........so not included as a squad member!! :smugfu:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, July 19, 2019, 11:35:24
Cowley, if you're going to pick on Reg you need to get your facts straight.

As we all know, Reg only deals in facts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cowley38 on Friday, July 19, 2019, 11:57:56
Cowley, if you're going to pick on Reg you need to get your facts straight.

As we all know, Reg only deals in facts.

Big Difference between Reg's 'Facts' and actual facts!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, July 19, 2019, 12:18:22
People in glass houses...

Yes with regard Mcglashen i was wrong


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cowley38 on Friday, July 19, 2019, 12:27:50
People in glass houses...

Yes with regard Mcglashen i was wrong /quote]

Not true...

I stated i believed Mcglashen would not be there at the start of pre season to look for a new club!

I was not claiming to be stating actual facts , just my belief based on my experiences  :smugfu:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 19, 2019, 12:55:07
Big Difference between Reg's 'Facts' and actual facts!!

Perhaps you'd care to exhume some of the examples on which you base this....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 19, 2019, 13:26:58
Christ it's bad enough when Legends Lounge pollutes the football threads banging on about politics, now Reg and Cowley have managed to drag football into the politics thread :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Friday, July 19, 2019, 14:44:19
Hi Reg. Yep I had a brain fart well spotted! I typed leave when I actually voted remain. I do however support leave now as I respect the result of the referendum.
From the content of your posts it seems we may be of a similar age.
My maternal grandfather was a coal miner, he lived in Hull and died of pneumoconiosis. My father and grandfather were
marine engineering fitters and my father worked British Leyland during Red Robboe's time.
I went to Grammar School in Swindon and had opportunities they never had. What thoughts can you share about those times?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, July 19, 2019, 20:06:29
Christ it's bad enough when Legends Lounge pollutes the football threads banging on about politics, now Reg and Cowley have managed to drag football into the politics thread :)

And the Shyte you spout with monotonous regularity on all threads, pot & kettle comrade, pot and kettle.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, July 19, 2019, 21:21:16
And the Shyte you spout with monotonous regularity on all threads, pot & kettle comrade, pot and kettle.

Ooh you’ve got a bite there Paul  :fishing:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, July 19, 2019, 22:41:50
Ooh you’ve got a bite there Paul  :fishing:
Hi Paul and your batty boi. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Saturday, July 20, 2019, 06:22:59
So....I live in Brecon and Radnor constituency, where as a result of our Conservative MP having been found guilty of falsifying an expenses claim, we are now in the midst of a byelection. Last night, I drove 15 miles after work to attend the hustings arranged in Brecon, to find neither he nor the Brexit Party candidate, nor the UKIP candidate had bothered to turn up. Over 100 constituents were there, as were the Lib Dem, Labour and Monster Raving Loony ca candidates. Lady Pink (MRLP) looks a better vote winner than the Tory - who had the cheek in his election address to claim he was the only candidate who could turn round the 20 years of neglect from the Lib Dems from 1994 to 2015! Wtf? Democracy, the rule of law, the party of traditional values and morality. What breathtaking arrogance. He will get the kicking he deserves.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Saturday, July 20, 2019, 06:34:38
Hi Paul and your batty boi. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Oh you’re looking for a bite back by using a homophobic slur? Sad.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, July 20, 2019, 08:51:52
Quote from: Legends-Lounge
Quote
Ooh you’ve got a bite there Paul  :fishing:
 Hi Paul and your batty boi. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

who the fuck spells it "boi". What are you, 12.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, July 20, 2019, 09:17:39
 Hi Paul and your batty boi. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

who the fuck spells it "boi". What are you, 12.

Big Boi from Outkast....

LL probably shakes it like a Polaroid picture when it comes to a dad dance...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWgvGjAhvIw


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, July 22, 2019, 15:58:48
Lib Dems elect a leader whose name is one letter different to 'Swindon'.  It's a promising start.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 22, 2019, 16:02:48
Soooooo

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...rnalist-exposed-memos-UKs-man-Washington.html

Let me get this straight, we are to believe and not just laugh that an unknown 19 year old 'journalist' (one would have to assume child prodigy) was the conduit who passed the documents from an unknown source to Oakeshott.

This guy by age 19 has worked for Bankski at Westmonster, then into Tufton Street at the Taxpayers' Alliance and Leave Means Leave campaign. and now he is working for Farage Ltd, but remember folks this all has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit, nothing to see here!

The fact that they seem to think that anyone would fall for such crap is possibly the funniest/most insulting thing! Its Darren Grimes all over again!

Oh and since when has diplomats been supposed to be impartial?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 22, 2019, 16:03:52
Hi Paul and your batty boi. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

who the fuck spells it "boi". What are you, 12.

I suspect most 12 year olds would be very insulted by that!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, July 22, 2019, 19:18:58
Glad I amused you so. 🤣🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 08:43:31
And in today's episode of you couldn't make it up.....

We hear time and time again paranoia about the EU wanting to create a united military force and what a terrible thing it would, but what is this I see, we do have a united EU military force being gathered to sail to the gulf to escort shipping, now who must be behind this dastardly act, must be those pesky French or Germans I reckon and their aspirations for regional supremacy, oh hang on its the UK government pleading for this.

But why did we not just go to our best friends in the US of A to help us in our hour of need, especially as we did their bidding in the same region the other week, oh we did but they didn't want to help....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49076294

So to recap...

EU army = bad....
EU Navy = pretty useful apparently.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:01:55
Confirmed.  It's Blobjob.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:03:41
 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:.

Come on Tory Mp's you know what to do....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:05:26
Confirmed.  It's Blobjob.

A dark day in British history.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cowley38 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:06:01
A dark day in British history.

Could be worse , Could be Corbyn!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:06:39
A dark day in British history.

We are truly fucked...if he lasts.  You can only hope that predictions of the shortest tenure in history come to pass.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:07:05
Could be worse , Could be Corbyn!!
That's no comfort.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:07:33
A dark day in British history.

I thought you would be over the moon?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:07:40
Could be worse , Could be Corbyn!!

I'm no fan or Corbyn either, but it's a close call as to who would be worse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:10:03
So, Trump, Putin, Johnson. Any nominations for the 4th horseman? Sadly, there's all too many candidates.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:10:14
We are truly fucked...if he lasts.  You can only hope that predictions of the shortest tenure in history come to pass.

Only needs 2 to resign the whip (And many have threatened) then he cannot show the ability to command a majority, May stays on as caretaker and then who knows..

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EAFkGkaW4AEdjJK?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

Even if he gets through this week I cannot see him being able to get a Queens Speech through parliament so come the sutumn again who knows.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:11:24
Victory speech full of meaningless waffle ('deliver, unite, defeat...')  Start as you mean to go on, mate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:12:07
The queen is dead, long live the king so to speak. I don’t envy the task ahead for Boris. If he pulls it off then kudos to the bloke. If he doesn’t then fuck knows where we go from that point. Though I suggest there will be plenty of you with your own ideas.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:12:56
Victory speech full of meaningless waffle ('deliver, unite, defeat...')  Start as you mean to go on, mate.
All true but . . . at least he gets people listening. Probably hoping for a gaff, but listening nonetheless.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:13:21
I'm no fan or Corbyn either, but it's a close call as to who would be worse.

The first thing in the in tray, is Iran, Johnson as FS showed his touch here, with dire consequences for Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.

Ask yourself the question who would be more likely to involve us in a Trump conflict, Johnson or Corbyn?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:14:08
Corbyn would be on Iran’s side


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cowley38 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:15:54
How would it be worse?

As I said - It could be worse we could have Corbyn as PM.....

If that happens i'm leaving the country.......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:17:20
As I said - It could be worse we could have Corbyn as PM.....

If that happens i'm leaving the country.......

How would it be worse?
Why would it make you want to leave the country?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:18:52
A nation of millions has its Prime minister decided by 92,000 people. Democracy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:25:36
Corbyn would be on Iran’s side
TBF he did back Hunt in condemning the seizure of the tanker over the weekend. But it was Hunt and May who allowed us to get embroiled in America's attempt to escalate the conflict with Iran in the first place by authorising the seizure of the Iranian tanker in Gib. Which was clearly always going to lead to retaliation. And then failed to protect British shipping against the very clearly signalled retaliation


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Panda Paws on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:27:24
A nation of millions has its Prime minister decided by 92,000 people. Democracy?

I don't have a strong opinion either way on BJ or JC (both as terrifyingly bad as each other, potentially), but this take is annoying me.

In the UK we do not elect a PM. We vote for a party. So, 92,000 haven't decided the nations PM at all. As a nation, we voted for a government to be led by a party, not a person.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:29:01
I don't have a strong opinion either way on BJ or JC (both as terrifyingly bad as each other, potentially), but this take is annoying me.

In the UK we do not elect a PM. We vote for a party. So, 92,000 haven't decided the nations PM at all. As a nation, we voted for a government to be led by a party, not a person.
You are quite right. However, it's no longer clear that that party commands a majority, especially not under their new leader. He's lost 2 ministers already and he's not even PM yet


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:29:04
Corbyn would be on Iran’s side

You do know about our history with Iran... how siding with the US we overthrew the democratically elected government of Mohammad Mosaddegh, in order to prevent the nationalisation of oil production. This coup was instigated to keep BP profits in the hands of shareholders.

I'm sure Jeremy would underestand the Iranians might have reasons not to trust the US/UK and that going to war over a resource which has a relatively short shelf life now, might not be the best idea and some other accommodation is needed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:30:08
A nation of millions has its Prime minister decided by 92,000 people. Democracy?
People never vote for a PM. They vote for a party or local MP. Nobody at all voted Gordon Brown


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:33:58
People never vote for a PM. They vote for a party or local MP. Nobody at all voted Gordon Brown
The 3rd part of that is true, but the 1st two while true in practice are increasingly untrue in terms of people's intent. We increasingly have a presidential style of politics where people do vote for the presumed qualities of the leader, rather than the platform of their party. You only have to scroll back in this thread to see the "better than Corbyn" comments


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:36:01
I don't have a strong opinion either way on BJ or JC (both as terrifyingly bad as each other, potentially), but this take is annoying me.

In the UK we do not elect a PM. We vote for a party. So, 92,000 haven't decided the nations PM at all. As a nation, we voted for a government to be led by a party, not a person.

You are correct but the fact remains that the prime minister has been chosen by 92,153 people. Is that democratic?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:42:53
People never vote for a PM. They vote for a party or local MP. Nobody at all voted Gordon Brown

The people of Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath did...

Its just the way the system works, when Brown got the gig the Tory boys were all whining about it and now its just the opposite side of the political spectrum who are realising how the system works.

I don't buy the argument that by electing Johnson we are fucked, this country has been fucked for 4 years, hopefully by electing the narcissistic clown with the morals of a sewer rat it will accelerate the realisation that the country is broken and something will be done.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:43:14
the two were separated by the no-deal option, Hunt - no and Johnson - yes.
Those 92,153 people voted yes to a possible no-deal on the 31st Oct, wish I had a vote on a no-deal!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Panda Paws on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:49:04
You are correct but the fact remains that the prime minister has been chosen by 92,153 people. Is that democratic?

Yes, it's democratic in so much that it's aligned with the UK's version of democracy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:52:28
People never vote for a PM. They vote for a party or local MP. Nobody at all voted Gordon Brown

Are you telling me people didn't vote for Tony Blair the man? I'm 100% sure they did. The same as people did for Maggie Thatcher. They would just look for the Labour/Tory candidate on the form for that purpose.

The same system was in place when Gordon Brown was made PM. I personally don't agree with it regardless of the political party in power.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 11:53:09
How would it be worse?
Why would it make you want to leave the country?

He won't/can't answer... he's just been told by the Mail


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cowley38 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:00:42
He won't/can't answer... he's just been told by the Mail

Because you think things are bad now?

If Corbyn gets in Power multiply that by 100..........


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:01:59
Because you think things are bad now?

If Corbyn gets in Power multiply that by 100..........
That isn't really an answer is it? Just a more vehement assertion


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:02:51
You do know about our history with Iran... how siding with the US we overthrew the democratically elected government of Mohammad Mosaddegh, in order to prevent the nationalisation of oil production. This coup was instigated to keep BP profits in the hands of shareholders.

I'm sure Jeremy would underestand the Iranians might have reasons not to trust the US/UK and that going to war over a resource which has a relatively short shelf life now, might not be the best idea and some other accommodation is needed.

Indeed, although it would possibly be better worded in the US siding with us, as it was our problems we sought their help with and the government used (as we do today with Corbyn to a degree)  a skewed version of politics to persuade the yanks that Iran was heading towards Communism (they weren't!)

However the minute you refereed to Corbyn as Jeremy your point ceased to have any value.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:03:25
I don't buy the argument that by electing Johnson we are fucked, this country has been fucked for 4 years, hopefully by electing the narcissistic clown with the morals of a sewer rat it will accelerate the realisation that the country is broken and something will be done.
Completely agree with your sentiment but nonetheless the appointment of this oaf as PM will represent an all-time nadir for the UK's standing in the world. A genuine moment of shame


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:04:05
Because you think things are bad now?

If Corbyn gets in Power multiply that by 100..........

FFS how, for someone who loves to mock Reginald for not giving facts to support his POV, this is a little bit rich!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:04:37
Neither are exactly great candidates for the job, unfortunately none of that matters


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:12:21
Yes, it's democratic in so much that it's aligned with the UK's version of democracy.

Fair point 👍


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:12:32
Name one politician of whatever persuasion that would make a good PM?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cowley38 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:19:02
FFS how, for someone who loves to mock Reginald for not giving facts to support his POV, this is a little bit rich!

racist and Anti Semetist Views
His extremist links
His policies would drive businesses out of the UK
Big foreign Businesses would not start up here due to his planned policies (Corbyns plans for massive corporation tax rises)
Taking us back to the 1970s(Union power)
Would you trust Corbyn with the economy - (get ready for boom and bust , givaway budgets then massive tax rises)

I could go On.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:19:07
Name one politician of whatever persuasion that would make a good PM?

Ken Clarke?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:19:55
Are you telling me people didn't vote for Tony Blair the man? I'm 100% sure they did. The same as people did for Maggie Thatcher. They would just look for the Labour/Tory candidate on the form for that purpose.

The same system was in place when Gordon Brown was made PM. I personally don't agree with it regardless of the political party in power.

Of course the leader of the party has an impact on voting intentions, but they are still in our system considered 1st among equals (primus inter pares) as I'm sure Johnson knows.

Therefore elements within the party removing the PM, or making their stay untenable for a variety of reasons, happens. 

Johnson is my 14th PM.... of those 8 have been removed by events dear boy. 5 by the electorate


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:20:07
Great, we have gone from an inept PM to an idiot PM.
(Notso)Great Britain


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:21:43
racist and Anti Semetist Views
His extremist links
His policies would drive businesses out of the UK
Big foreign Businesses would not start up here due to his planned policies (Corbyns plans for massive corporation tax rises)
Taking us back to the 1970s(Union power)
Would you trust Corbyn with the economy - (get ready for boom and bust , givaway budgets then massive tax rises)

I could go On.....


Problem is, most of those could be about Boris too. That's how screwed we are.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:26:32
Name one politician of whatever persuasion that would make a good PM?

There will be plenty of backbenchers, both sides of the aisle, who would be good leaders

Problem is they do the job to serve the best interests of their constituents and the country, in order to get top jobs you need to put your own interests ahead of the greater good so they never get a sniff of the top jobs


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:27:19
racist and Anti Semetist Views
His extremist links
His policies would drive businesses out of the UK
Big foreign Businesses would not start up here due to his planned policies (Corbyns plans for massive corporation tax rises)
Taking us back to the 1970s(Union power)
Would you trust Corbyn with the economy - (get ready for boom and bust , givaway budgets then massive tax rises)

I could go On.....


racist and Anti Semetist Views - So much like Johnson then and his views on Muslim women etc?
His extremist links - So much like Johnson then and his close relationship to Bannon and Putin??
His policies would drive businesses out of the UK - So much like Johnson who stated fuck business and is pursuing a hard Brexit which is already driving businesses out of the UK?
Big foreign Businesses would not start up here due to his planned policies (Corbyns plans for massive corporation tax rises) - So much like Johnson who stated fuck business and is pursuing a hard Brexit which is already causing foreign businesses to relocate elsewhere in the EU?
Taking us back to the 1970s(Union power) - So much like Johnson who is taking us back to 1970's where racism and xeophobia were normalised??
Would you trust Corbyn with the economy - (get ready for boom and bust , givaway budgets then massive tax rises) - No its obviously much better for us to have tax breaks for the rich, ensure that Amazon etc avoid tax payments and who would want a budget that aids public services and the disabled and disadvantaged? Equally when considering boom and bust, in his campaign to become leader, Boris Johnson boasted he was the biggest defender of the bankers who crashed the economy.

FWIW I think Corbyn would be a disaster as PM, however I would be more confident that he is unlikely to cause the deaths of thousands of his own population which to me (I am probably wrong here) should (and I cannot believe I am having to say this about the UK) be the starting point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:32:14
racist and Anti Semetist* Views
*anti-Semitic. The concept is anti-Semitism, the adjective describing the views or a person holding them is anti-Semitic, the adjectival noun for a person who is anti-Semitic is anti-Semite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:33:10
racist and Anti Semetist Views
His extremist links
His policies would drive businesses out of the UK
Big foreign Businesses would not start up here due to his planned policies (Corbyns plans for massive corporation tax rises)
Taking us back to the 1970s(Union power)
Would you trust Corbyn with the economy - (get ready for boom and bust , givaway budgets then massive tax rises)

I could go On.....

What racist and anti semitic views?
What extremist links?
What policies?
What massive corporation tax rises?
How would we go back to the 1970's?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cowley38 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:40:35
What racist and anti semitic views?
What policies?
What massive corporation tax rises?
How would we go back to the 1970's?



Jesus you been under a rock for the last 3-4 years........


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 12:47:54
Jesus you been under a rock for the last 3-4 years........

Well enlighten me then.

What are Jeremy Corbyn's racist and anti semitic views?
What policies are you referring to?
Who are the extremists and how are they extremists?
What are the rises and how much are they and how would they be som damaging?
How would we go back to the 1970's?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 13:08:35
racist and Anti Semetist Views
His extremist links
His policies would drive businesses out of the UK
Big foreign Businesses would not start up here due to his planned policies (Corbyns plans for massive corporation tax rises)
Taking us back to the 1970s(Union power)
Would you trust Corbyn with the economy - (get ready for boom and bust , givaway budgets then massive tax rises)

I could go On.....


Genuine question. You remember the 70s but not the 80s? Because the Tories were in power that whole decade where we saw interest rates hit 15%, unemployment hit 3-4 million, a stock market crash and significant ongoing strikes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 13:20:14
Let’s face it they’re both counts and the UK is counted in either scenario.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 13:36:18
One problem basing a political approach on selective statistics is the inability to see the other "sides" point of view.
From the moment individual trade unions moved into dogmatic political objectives rather than a focus on their members daily needs the seeds of discontent were sown.
The recent suggestion for example that workers should be able to strike in sympathy with others even if the issue was not in this country is laughable.
I was a youngish adult during the "Red Robbo" era in Swindon and can assure you that it was not pretty. My father went on strike for about seven weeks to achieve parity with toolmakers in Cowley and at a mass meeting was told the workers had "won" as the Swindon plant was to shut down. He (and everyone else) went back to work the next day. He left the labour party and never voted labour again.
I accept that there are right of centre dogmas which are as equally stupid but it's the lack of compromise and the spirit of "I am right everyone else is wrong" that in my opinion is doing the most damage these days.
I think democracy in this country is dead and that it may be impossible to return to a more equitable approach.
Don't even get me started on the opportunist non liberal non democratic party!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cowley38 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 13:37:05
Genuine question. You remember the 70s but not the 80s? Because the Tories were in power that whole decade where we saw interest rates hit 15%, unemployment hit 3-4 million, a stock market crash and significant ongoing strikes.


yes I remember the 1980s...

The reason the Interest rates hit 15%......

Was used to tackle the Inflation rate left by the Labour government ...........in 1975 it was at 25% - infact the lowest rate under Labour in the 1970s was 6.1%

To tackle this the government had to increase interest rates , Increase taxes and utilise spending cuts.....

This then led to a recession which led to increased Unemployment......







Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 14:10:22
Nothing ever changes then. People will blame Labour for a global recession no matter what decade we're in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 14:16:02
Its like Rochdale on here today....

In other news....

(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67151021_2608717629187293_7697883710120525824_o.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_oc=AQlf_BwnQlu_9BIJBaeGjgmjFNQIr0ldyOfzfu9VCHHKvO-wKN1r4UXcBrANxOt_QkY&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-2.fna&oh=f6f2f4d7ffbcb99ace810dc92a367016&oe=5DB8E0B3)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 14:17:09
Nothing ever changes then. People will blame Labour for a global recession no matter what decade we're in.

As noted, the saddest outcome which Brexit and now this proves is the complete lack of knowledge of history in this country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 14:39:36
Ivanka Trump has congratulated Johnson on becoming PM of the United "Kingston". All hail the new global Ignorocracy!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 14:44:40
Wow. Blame Labour for anything and risk meltdown from virtue signallers.
Perhaps it is time to stop blaming western democracies generally and America/the Donald specifically for all the problems in the world today.

For example a host of left wing interviewees over recent days have "blamed" the Donald for the interception of a British registered tanker in the gulf. Why are they unable to blame the state (Iran in this case) that commits state sanctioned piracy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 14:46:54
Ivanka Trump has congratulated Johnson on becoming PM of the United "Kingston". All hail the new global Ignorocracy!
And congratulations to Donald Trump on being President of the United States of Armenia.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 14:48:56
Kingston is a nice place.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 15:24:37
Wow. Blame Labour for anything and risk meltdown from virtue signallers.
Or perhaps more accurately "make assertions with no supporting evidence and expect to get challenged for it"?

For example a host of left wing interviewees over recent days have "blamed" the Donald for the interception of a British registered tanker in the gulf. Why are they unable to blame the state (Iran in this case) that commits state sanctioned piracy?
Well, that's clearly ridiculous. The blame should be shared between the Iranian govt for their act of "state sponsored piracy" and the UK govt for their previous act of "state sponsored piracy" a week earlier which was always going to lead to such retaliation. And ignoring the very explicit statements from the Iranians that they would take revenge. So probably slightly more blame to the the UK govt.

Fortunately we are able to call on our European allies to get us out of this mess.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 15:55:43

Well, that's clearly ridiculous. The blame should be shared between the Iranian govt for their act of "state sponsored piracy" and the UK govt for their previous act of "state sponsored piracy" a week earlier which was always going to lead to such retaliation. And ignoring the very explicit statements from the Iranians that they would take revenge. So probably slightly more blame to the the UK govt.

Fortunately we are able to call on our European allies to get us out of this mess.

“if I were an Iranian politician... I think I might genuinely and not unreasonably believe that the possession of a nuclear bomb...was the only sure-fire means of protecting my country... from the possibility of an attack by America.”

Boris Johnson, 2006, Daily Telegraph


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 19:30:50
anyone for a game of whiff-whaff?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Tuesday, July 23, 2019, 21:59:39
Just to say I work in an international financial office in Malaga, I would say that 80% of the staff are right wing economists. They come from on last count 15 different countries. Every single one of them was taking the piss out of the Uk today. People are openly laughing at Boris.

The general perception is that the Uk has had it. Lots of the financial service industry has begun to leave London. Businesses in Gibraltar are packing up and moving to Malta. You can argue for or against Brexit but from where I’m standing looking in from outside , the uk is royally fucked and the world doesn’t give a shit and has moved or is moving on. A proper balls up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 12:33:27
Good job BBC, good work!

https://twitter.com/iCrowby/status/1153733937027518466


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 13:14:01
May suggesting that she knows when to stand down so Corybn should as well.

She should have been gone fucking ages ago, the deluded old bat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 13:14:54
May suggesting that she knows when to stand down so Corybn should as well.

She should have been gone fucking ages ago, the deluded old bat.
So should he


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 13:16:31
So should he

Why?
Not trying to trip you or Cowley up. I'm interested to know why people form their opinion of Jeremy Corbyn.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 13:24:54
Why?
Not trying to trip you or Cowley up. I'm interested to know why people form their opinion of Jeremy Corbyn.
I think I come at it from a rather different direction from Cowley :)

For me because he has proven himself completely ineffective as a leader across a range of issues, but two in particular:
1) Any halfway competent opposition would have torn this government apart by now. Instead Labour's poll rating has dropped. He squandered the post-Brexit bounce with his faffing and indecision.
2) The anti-Semitism issue has been appallingly badly handled, mainly because he can't see beyond the prejudices of his allies and he is (as on so many issues) a hostage to his own student posturings.

Labour's policies under Corbyn are considerably more moderate than the press would have you believe but whatever you think of them is irrelevant because he is the major stumbling block to delivering them.

For a healthy democracy to function effectively, it needs an effective government and an effective opposition to hold the govt to account. We have neither and Corbyn carries a large part of the blame for that. He's fucking useless, get rid.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 13:29:41
So should he

Not the point, Paul.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 13:34:57
I think I come at it from a rather different direction from Cowley :)

For me because he has proven himself completely ineffective as a leader across a range of issues, but two in particular:
1) Any halfway competent opposition would have torn this government apart by now. Instead Labour's poll rating has dropped. He squandered the post-Brexit bounce with his faffing and indecision.
2) The anti-Semitism issue has been appallingly badly handled, mainly because he can't see beyond the prejudices of his allies and he is (as on so many issues) a hostage to his own student posturings.

Labour's policies under Corbyn are considerably more moderate than the press would have you believe but whatever you think of them is irrelevant because he is the major stumbling block to delivering them.

For a healthy democracy to function effectively, it needs an effective government and an effective opposition to hold the govt to account. We have neither and Corbyn carries a large part of the blame for that. He's fucking useless, get rid.

Ha. Yes I appreciate your angle is completely different.
Thanks for answering and backing your opinions up with reason. I think that should be expected of anyone making any point on any topic. If not their points are worthless.
Tbf you always do this.

I agree that he should stand aside but not entirely for the same reasons as you. I do because I think he is on a hiding to nothing due to the relentless smear campaign against him. And with the crux of your first point really, that the Tories should be there for the taking. I don't see him being able to do this and the removal of what is a terrible government is a matter of urgency. For the good of the Labour party and nation he should step aside.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 13:40:07
So should he

I see many of the faithful cultists have been getting all a lather about the fact that this is now the third Tory PM Corbyn has faced and suggesting that he has in some way seen them off.

Rather ignores the plain and simple fact that he has never won an election against any of them.

I was prepared to listen to Corbyn when he was elected as it was claimed he offered something different, however it has become clear that his politics are as ideologically driven and as ruthless as the Tories and at least you expect them to be unpleasant to the majority of the population.

He and his acolytes still haven't learnt the lesson that was dealt to Milliband (E), its all very well appealing to your supporters, they are not the votes you need to get its the floating electorate you are after! Its all very well people wittering on about labours c.500k membership, but thats barely the population of 3 big constituencies and means feck all in the scheme of things!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 13:47:08
Ha. Yes I appreciate your angle is completely different.
Thanks for answering and backing your opinions up with reason. I think that should be expected of anyone making any point on any topic. If not their points are worthless.
Tbf you always do this.

Jesus Christ, get a room!  :D ;)

I agree that he should stand aside but not entirely for the same reasons as you. I do because I think he is on a hiding to nothing due to the relentless smear campaign against him. And with the crux of your first point really, that the Tories should be there for the taking. I don't see him being able to do this and the removal of what is a terrible government is a matter of urgency. For the good of the Labour party and nation he should step aside.

Whilst the smearing might be relentless I think it goes deeper than that, I am not aware of any of my friends being dyed in the wool to any party, however without exception Corbyn has lost us all now for the reasons that the Wiltshire scouser mentions, in addition he appears to have alienated the young with his prevarication about Brexit and instead they just seem to feel duped.

Add into the mix the whole anti-antisemitism stuff (which has been reported dreadfully, but is pretty dreadful anyway), and its as toxic in electoral terms as the Tories should be! Problem is Corbyn is not the power he is just a useful idiot to front the project and too many people have too much invested in him and depend on him to retain their power to let him step down.

Plus the anointed one seems to be Rebecca Long-Bailey so even if Corbyn went I don't see any upturn in fortunes as she is equally useless.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 13:48:25
Not the point, Paul.
True. And I do agree with your original point. I think the country has been extremely ill-served by it's political class of all colours over the past few years


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 13:54:19
Jesus Christ, get a room!  :D ;)

Whilst the smearing might be relentless I think it goes deeper than that, I am not aware of any of my friends being dyed in the wool to any party, however without exception Corbyn has lost us all now for the reasons that the Wiltshire scouser mentions, in addition he appears to have alienated the young with his prevarication about Brexit and instead they just seem to feel duped.

Add into the mix the whole anti-antisemitism stuff (which has been reported dreadfully, but is pretty dreadful anyway), and its as toxic in electoral terms as the Tories should be! Problem is Corbyn is not the power he is just a useful idiot to front the project and too many people have too much invested in him and depend on him to retain their power to let him step down.

Plus the anointed one seems to be Rebecca Long-Bailey so even if Corbyn went I don't see any upturn in fortunes as she is equally useless.

Your post above this one nails it for me. Labour have to appeal to the masses and not just the followers. Though I feel Corbyn has been treated very unfairly and often with utter lies and smears, he does have to go as he just won't attract enough support to win a general election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 14:09:11
Jesus Christ Arriba " Labour's policies under Corbyn are considerably more moderate than the press would have you believe"
In your alternative universe on planet Arriba re-nationalisation of swathes of industries at a fraction of their worth and massively increasing the power of trade unions to be able to secondary picket in disputes anywhere in the world to name but two of many is moderate.
I lived through the times of the shuffling grandad known as Michael Foot he was right wing compared to the current gang of Marxists.
I respect your views but would suggest you at least try to remain in touch with the real world ie. nothing wrong with Marxism but be honest about their goals of state control of every aspect of society.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 14:15:18
Jesus Christ Arriba " Labour's policies under Corbyn are considerably more moderate than the press would have you believe"
In your alternative universe on planet Arriba re-nationalisation of swathes of industries at a fraction of their worth and massively increasing the power of trade unions to be able to secondary picket in disputes anywhere in the world to name but two of many is moderate.
I lived through the times of the shuffling grandad known as Michael Foot he was right wing compared to the current gang of Marxists.
I respect your views but would suggest you at least try to remain in touch with the real world ie. nothing wrong with Marxism but be honest about their goals of state control of every aspect of society.

Not my words.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 14:15:35
Ooops sorry Arriba looks like I was reading Pauld's comments quoted by you. Sorry.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 14:43:20

I do because I think he is on a hiding to nothing due to the relentless smear campaign against him.

They do make it very easy for people to suggest that there might be, you know, a teensy little problem there...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EAO2VsVWkAI8cXo?format=jpg&name=900x900)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EAP20g2U0AAVxNa?format=jpg&name=medium)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 15:09:51
I was prepared to listen to Corbyn when he was elected as it was claimed he offered something different, however it has become clear that his politics are as ideologically driven and as ruthless as the Tories and at least you expect them to be unpleasant to the majority of the population.

He and his acolytes still haven't learnt the lesson that was dealt to Milliband (E), its all very well appealing to your supporters, they are not the votes you need to get its the floating electorate you are after! Its all very well people wittering on about labours c.500k membership, but thats barely the population of 3 big constituencies and means feck all in the scheme of things!

One of my bigger concerns at the moment (and there are a few) is that Johnson concludes quickly that his majority is too flimsy to do anything and takes a gamble with an early election.  If he loses, he becomes the PM with the shortest tenure in history.  But if he wins, he gets a proper majority and becomes much more dangerous than he is now.

Corbyn's weakness is central to all of this.  He's old news now, and it's difficult to see how he can reinvigorating his appeal to voters without going all out for Remain, which isn't his style.  He prefers muddle, compromise & obfuscation.  I can see the Brexit Party and the Tories co-ordinating far better with each other in terms of electoral agreements than Labour (led by a weakened Corbyn) & the Lib Dems (who can't stand Corbyn and are themselves led by someone who's been in the job 5 mins and still learning the ropes).  I really do worry about Labour and the Lib Dems screwing up if it were to come to another election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 15:10:33
Jesus Christ Arriba " Labour's policies under Corbyn are considerably more moderate than the press would have you believe"
In your alternative universe on planet Arriba re-nationalisation of swathes of industries at a fraction of their worth and massively increasing the power of trade unions to be able to secondary picket in disputes anywhere in the world to name but two of many is moderate.
I lived through the times of the shuffling grandad known as Michael Foot he was right wing compared to the current gang of Marxists.
I respect your views but would suggest you at least try to remain in touch with the real world ie. nothing wrong with Marxism but be honest about their goals of state control of every aspect of society.


Of course the irony in your paranoid fantasies is that had Labour won under Foot in 83, we'd have left the European Union.

As Arriba poits out there was nothing in Labour's last manifesto under Corbyn which isn't moderate mainstream European social democracy.

However, in terms of thinking going forward... perhaps your attention might be drawn to Corbyn passing a motion through the House to declare a Climate Change Emergency.

https://labour.org.uk/press/jeremy-corbyn-declares-environment-climate-emergency/

It is here that the politics of the future will be formed..... the time of the deniers is passing, rapidly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 16:18:57
They do make it very easy for people to suggest that there might be, you know, a teensy little problem there...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EAO2VsVWkAI8cXo?format=jpg&name=900x900)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EAP20g2U0AAVxNa?format=jpg&name=medium)

Rachel Swindon isn't Jeremy Corbyn. Some of his biggest supporters like Rachel Swindon don't help his situation though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 16:36:19
One of my bigger concerns at the moment (and there are a few) is that Johnson concludes quickly that his majority is too flimsy to do anything and takes a gamble with an early election.  If he loses, he becomes the PM with the shortest tenure in history.  But if he wins, he gets a proper majority and becomes much more dangerous than he is now.

Corbyn's weakness is central to all of this.  He's old news now, and it's difficult to see how he can reinvigorating his appeal to voters without going all out for Remain, which isn't his style.  He prefers muddle, compromise & obfuscation.  I can see the Brexit Party and the Tories co-ordinating far better with each other in terms of electoral agreements than Labour (led by a weakened Corbyn) & the Lib Dems (who can't stand Corbyn and are themselves led by someone who's been in the job 5 mins and still learning the ropes).  I really do worry about Labour and the Lib Dems screwing up if it were to come to another election.

Polls (smolls) show things pretty much 4 way split as it stands, the Torys and Farage Ltd are fighting over very common ground (Farage gains seem pretty directly in correlation with Tory losses) and unless Johnson starts offering Farge the world I cannot see him going quietly.

The pro remain parties have started to work very closely together finally (See Brecon) so the outlier as it stands is Labour. One only has to note the way the faithful attack jobs went after Swinson at the start of the week to show there is little chance of any agreement there as the LD's are not pure enough to be part of the project, as it stands more moderate centralist Labour voters are going to be more at home wtih the LD's than any other party but we shall see.

Despite all the posturing about Corbyn being great he is prevaricating about a confidence vote which suggests they ain't confident of winning an election (its almost like they just like protesting like students but don't actually want to do anything), likewise Johnson is ruling out elections as they are not confident of winning it (and polls suggest little if any leap in his support).

I suspect any election in the short to medium term would leave things even more fucked up than now!  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 16:41:07
Rachel Swindon isn't Jeremy Corbyn. Some of his biggest supporters like Rachel Swindon don't help his situation though.

Its fairly well assumed that Rachel Swindon isn't even a woman (I suspect its Reg personally!) however it is also very clear that whoever runs the account has a very direct line to the inner circle and thus whatever they tweet is (rightly or wrongly) seen as party affiliated at worse so it really doesn't help.

Their change in tack this week was equally useless,

There is NO anti-Semitism in Labour.... it is a baseless smear used to undermine the leadership of Jeremy Cor....

URGENT CORRECTION

Jeremy Corbyn is showing amazing leadership by confronting the appalling scourge of anti-Semitism in Labour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 16:43:28
horlock - not according to the Adver article

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/16900734.prolific-pro-corbyn-tweeter-rachael-from-swindon-gives-rare-interview/

from

https://www.buzzfeed.com/markdistefano/heres-the-woman-behind-britains-most-divisive-twitter


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 16:46:45
She's the wife of a former teffer who fell ill. He used to do excellent match preview write-ups, his name escapes me now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 16:47:53
She's the wife of a former teffer who fell ill. He used to do excellent match preview write-ups, his name escapes me now.

Shaw Rosso?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 16:51:11
horlock - not according to the Adver article


Must be true then!

Whatever it is she and her ilk do absolutely nothing to help the Labour cause, ultimately a hung parliament is incredibly likely, her and the other cultists desperate demonisation of the Lib Dems for making compromises in coalition is one of the stupidest and most short-sighted things about the Labour Party. No party is polling above 25 percent. If compromise is taboo, what exactly is the big plan here a coalition with the Tories?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 16:55:16
Shaw Rosso?

That's the badger. Rachel Swindon is his misses.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 17:55:06
Quote from: Flashheart
Quote
Shaw Rosso?
That's the badger. Rachel Swindon is his misses.

He's quoted in that article so it's a relief the worst didn't happen.

wonder why he never retuned


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 19:32:24
Its fairly well assumed that Rachel Swindon isn't even a woman (I suspect its Reg personally!) however it is also very clear that whoever runs the account has a very direct line to the inner circle and thus whatever they tweet is (rightly or wrongly) seen as party affiliated at worse so it really doesn't help.

Their change in tack this week was equally useless,

There is NO anti-Semitism in Labour.... it is a baseless smear used to undermine the leadership of Jeremy Cor....

URGENT CORRECTION

Jeremy Corbyn is showing amazing leadership by confronting the appalling scourge of anti-Semitism in Labour.

Rachel Swindon's tweets you posted are not anti Semitic. As far as I know she is just a campaigner for the party and uses Twitter as her voice.

The smear campaign against Jeremy Corbyn started way before the anti semitic stuff was ever mentioned too. It's been relentless for ages now.
The reason the anti semitism row kicked off I think was due to criticism of Israel and their conduct. They then took it and ran with it. Calling it anti semitism. Now, if anyone says anything against Israel they get labeled as anti semitic. That's just plain madness.

Now I'm sure there is some anti Semitism within Labour and its supporters to a point, and of course it needs stamping out, but I think its been blown out of proportion. I think it's very few individuals. There is no more anti semitism than you'd find within the Tory ranks I'm sure. But as they leave Israel to carry on as they like, nothing gets said.  Not to mention their anti Muslim issues which has now seen violent attacks against Muslim women rocket recently. The now prime minister called them letterboxes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 20:10:07
The smear campaign against Jeremy Corbyn started way before the anti semitic stuff was ever mentioned too. It's been relentless for ages now.
The reason the anti semitism row kicked off I think was due to criticism of Israel and their conduct. They then took it and ran with it. Calling it anti semitism. Now, if anyone says anything against Israel they get labeled as anti semitic. That's just plain madness.

Now I'm sure there is some anti Semitism within Labour and its supporters to a point, and of course it needs stamping out, but I think its been blown out of proportion. I think it's very few individuals.
You're right, it is very few individuals but that doesn't make it any less real. And the few individuals who do blur the lines between legitimate criticism of Israel and out-and-out anti-Semitism tend to come from the hard-left factions within (and sometimes outside) the party that are seen by Corbyn and his crew as supporting him. Plus he has a non-too clever track record of lining up alongside some very dodgy characters in the name of the Palestinian cause. All of which makes him and his crew very slow to act against the real anti-Semites. He's the author of his own misfortune in this regard - swift and decisive action early on would have seen this off. But 3 years later it's still dragging on, and it's his own fault.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 20:12:20
Robert Buckland becomes Justice Minister in the Sinister Syndicate Johnson cabinet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 20:17:49
On a positive note, at least Grayling has finally gone. On a less positive note the only member of May's cabinet more inept than him is now Prime Minister. Apparently told Tory MPs yesterday that he is going to solve the Iranian crisis by building more ships for the Navy. WTAF?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 20:22:07
yeah, but he speaks Latin so he must be clever deep down ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 20:34:47
You're right, it is very few individuals but that doesn't make it any less real. And the few individuals who do blur the lines between legitimate criticism of Israel and out-and-out anti-Semitism tend to come from the hard-left factions within (and sometimes outside) the party that are seen by Corbyn and his crew as supporting him. Plus he has a non-too clever track record of lining up alongside some very dodgy characters in the name of the Palestinian cause. All of which makes him and his crew very slow to act against the real anti-Semites. He's the author of his own misfortune in this regard - swift and decisive action early on would have seen this off. But 3 years later it's still dragging on, and it's his own fault.

Can't argue with any of that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 20:49:18
Christ there's no hope for this country if it is populated by what looks like a majority of those posting on here.
Corbyn et al have made no attempt to deny their desire to become the first Marxist government of the UK.
Fake news, smear tactics and selective quotes taken out of context are only acceptable if directed against "right wingers"
If the press reports instances when Corbyn and his mates meet with very dodgy individuals/groups combined with irrefutable evidence surely this is in the public interest?
God Reg you are a pompous ass we all know that all mainstream socialist parties in Europe ensured that their senior shadow cabinet member throws mao's little red book at their prime minister. Stop virtue signalling and at least accept you support Marxist ideology.
I have previously "shared" on this forum that my family and I were blue collar working class and that my way into a more fulfilling life was via grammar school education. The labour backed policy to effectively end this opportunity was one of their biggest betrayals of the working class in my opinion


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 07:37:25
Christ there's no hope for this country if it is populated by what looks like a majority of those posting on here.
Corbyn et al have made no attempt to deny their desire to become the first Marxist government of the UK.
Fake news, smear tactics and selective quotes taken out of context are only acceptable if directed against "right wingers"
If the press reports instances when Corbyn and his mates meet with very dodgy individuals/groups combined with irrefutable evidence surely this is in the public interest?
God Reg you are a pompous ass we all know that all mainstream socialist parties in Europe ensured that their senior shadow cabinet member throws mao's little red book at their prime minister. Stop virtue signalling and at least accept you support Marxist ideology.
I have previously "shared" on this forum that my family and I were blue collar working class and that my way into a more fulfilling life was via grammar school education. The labour backed policy to effectively end this opportunity was one of their biggest betrayals of the working class in my opinion
There appears to be only one pompous ass on this thread. Look at you with your political snobbery insisting on how people should think. You are literally why young people are voting and behaving the way they do these days. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 08:10:07
 :popcorn:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 08:22:54
Anyone who unironically uses the phrase 'virtue signalling' is a bit of prat imo.

Similar to those who use 'do-gooder' as a fucking insult.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 08:27:29
On a positive note, at least Grayling has finally gone. On a less positive note the only member of May's cabinet more inept than him is now Prime Minister. Apparently told Tory MPs yesterday that he is going to solve the Iranian crisis by building more ships for the Navy. WTAF?

They are a fine body of sheer fuckwittedness. Just looking at the top posts...

We have a clueless PM, A Home Secretary who has made a career spouting nonsense about how good the death penalty is, is strongly anti-LGBT rights and was sacked for setting up secret channels to negotiate with a foreign country behind the Prime Minster back.

and a Foreign Sec who until a few weeks back apparently didn't know the significance of Dover to Calais and is probably going to need a teacher, a map and some crayons to get up to speed.

Going lower we have one who was sacked for leaking confidential stuff from government ,meetings to the media, we have an environment secretary who has a very dubious record on environmental matters continuously voting against measures to curb climate change.

And Nicky Morgan who made much of the fact that she would resign if Johnson got in!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 08:30:44
Anyone who unironically uses the phrase 'virtue signalling' is a bit of prat imo.

Similar to those who use 'do-gooder' as a fucking insult.

Nah, its one of the most prominent terms in the glossary of the far right play book, along with snowflake, libtard etc etc.

It is a sign of the times that apparently giving a shit about your fellow man the environment your successors are going to inherit is apparently some kind of weakness now. Its happened to one of my friends already, I am still intrigued at what stage I am going to wake up and give not one shit about anyone but myself?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 08:39:55
Back on topic, the best thing about the new cabinet/PM combo is they are packed full of Brexiteers. Let's see what they can come up with now. No excuses, no blaming the remoaners. Brexiteers in charge of Brexit. Should be fun.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 08:46:06
Back on topic, the best thing about the new cabinet/PM combo is they are packed full of Brexiteers. Let's see what they can come up with now. No excuses, no blaming the remoaners. Brexiteers in charge of Brexit. Should be fun.

Yes.... with local added interest, that Buckland who supported remain, now backs no deal, knowing that it will hit his constituents hard, but hey he's got a promotion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 09:17:09
What a vile rabble the cabinet are. Previously sacked and habitual liars. Self proclaimed failures who quit before are now back in the cabinet. You couldn't make this shit up. As for brown nosed Buckland. He'll get the boot at the next GE as Sarah Church is a much better option and the town has gone to shit in recent years on under Tory rule. Can't see the locals being so stupid to re-elect such a useless self serving buffoon again


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 09:22:41
Yes.... with local added interest, that Buckland who supported remain, now backs no deal, knowing that it will hit his constituents hard, but hey he's got a promotion.

In fairness Swindon had a leave majority. So "we" deserve it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 09:23:44
Can't see the locals being so stupid to re-elect such a useless self serving buffoon again

The Tories increased their majority in the council election. The town going to shit doesn't seem to be an issue for many.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 09:30:15
Back on topic, the best thing about the new cabinet/PM combo is they are packed full of Brexiteers. Let's see what they can come up with now. No excuses, no blaming the remoaners. Brexiteers in charge of Brexit. Should be fun.

Don't forget also that Jeremy Hunt had support of 77 MPs & c.42k Tory members, yet of his supporters, following the Night of the Long Knives, only Rudd remains & Hunt gone too. That's a hell of a lot of the party already pissed off!

Popcorn at the ready!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 09:32:51
Back on topic, the best thing about the new cabinet/PM combo is they are packed full of Brexiteers. Let's see what they can come up with now. No excuses, no blaming the remoaners. Brexiteers in charge of Brexit. Should be fun.
We've had Brexiteers in charge of Brexit for the past 3 years, and they've singly failed to make it work, the difference now is we have the most extreme "No Deal" Brexiteers in charge throughout. But I know what you mean, inclined to agree, this is what they wanted - let them fucking own it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 09:36:20
What a vile rabble the cabinet are. Previously sacked and habitual liars. Self proclaimed failures who quit before are now back in the cabinet. You couldn't make this shit up. As for brown nosed Buckland. He'll get the boot at the next GE as Sarah Church is a much better option and the town has gone to shit in recent years on under Tory rule. Can't see the locals being so stupid to re-elect such a useless self serving buffoon again
TBF I think there are a lot of people who accept the Tories are an absolute shower but who are so terrified of Corbyn and allies they'd vote for pretty much anyone to keep them out. I think we see some of that on here, with GosportRob et al who view politics entirely through the prism of "Stop Corbyn"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 09:37:50
Back on topic, the best thing about the new cabinet/PM combo is they are packed full of Brexiteers. Let's see what they can come up with now. No excuses, no blaming the remoaners. Brexiteers in charge of Brexit. Should be fun.

One possible scenario (likely, even) is that Boris, with tabloid and DT support, will blame


1.  the lack of a deal inside effectively 2 months on the EU (which has been negotiating already for > 2 years) and
2.  then blame "Marxist" Corbyn and "anti-democrats" within his party for blocking Brexit (in fact a calamitous No Deal)

and then

3.  call an election.

Precipice avoided for now, cancerous uncertainty prolonged.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 09:43:26
...Corbyn et al have made no attempt to deny their desire to become the first Marxist government of the UK...

I am, in the main, contemptuous of magic grandpa but I wonder if you have any quotes and sources for that assertion Gosport? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 10:12:15
One possible scenario (likely, even) is that Boris, with tabloid and DT support, will blame


1.  the lack of a deal inside effectively 2 months on the EU (which has been negotiating already for > 2 years) and
2.  then blame "Marxist" Corbyn and "anti-democrats" within his party for blocking Brexit (in fact a calamitous No Deal)

and then

3.  call an election.

Precipice avoided for now, cancerous uncertainty prolonged.
Looking at his Cabinet, that's exactly the strategy he's gone for. That's a Cabinet built to look good for a campaign, not to govern.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 10:34:07
One possible scenario (likely, even) is that Boris, with tabloid and DT support, will blame


1.  the lack of a deal inside effectively 2 months on the EU (which has been negotiating already for > 2 years) and
2.  then blame "Marxist" Corbyn and "anti-democrats" within his party for blocking Brexit (in fact a calamitous No Deal)

and then

3.  call an election.

Precipice avoided for now, cancerous uncertainty prolonged.

The blame game was already clear in yesterdays speech.

He is convinced we can do a deal without the anti-democratic backstop, however there is a possibility that “Brussels won’t budge” and we will be “forced to come out without a deal.” - so the blame is already been lined up for pesky johnny foreigner for not doing our bidding;

He branded critics of Brexit and the Brexit process as people who "bet against Britain", so anyone against the government and project is against the country, from page 1 of the fascists playbook that one. Plus in terms of who bet against Britain, was that not all his mates in the Hedgefunds who have made money as Brexit has been driving sterling down?

"To those who say we can't be ready, I say do not underestimate this country", so once again you criticise me or my party you are actually a traitor who is criticising your country.

So actually nothing unexpected, he pledged a lot none of which will happen but as Trump has proven that doesn't really matter to the faithful.

I still think we won't have an election till its forced upon him, blindingly obvious that they don't think they can win one, and likewise Corbyns prevarication about having a vote of no confidence is a pretty sure sign that they don't think they can win one.

All in all we have two parties are the extremities of left and right who know they cannot win and election and we are stuck with them for now!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 11:20:44
TBF I think there are a lot of people who accept the Tories are an absolute shower but who are so terrified of Corbyn and allies they'd vote for pretty much anyone to keep them out. I think we see some of that on here, with GosportRob et al who view politics entirely through the prism of "Stop Corbyn"

Well the public are being brainwashed daily by the "Corbyn is a danger" line. Every time a Tory is interviewed they trot that out. You can tell the emails/orders have been flying about in that regard. Tell the people the same thing over and over and they'll believe it I suppose. More reason why Labour need a new leader to take the Tories on. The smears have worked where Corbyn is concerned


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 11:44:44
https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1154352034419740672

'Dom Cummings’ strategy is clear: to reunite the Leave vote, see off the Brexit Party and win an election against a Remain vote divided between Labour, the LibDems and the SNP//Plaid Cymru/Greens. If Labour MPs don’t get rid of Corbyn, it will probably work.'

This is what I was alluding to yesterday, and it terrifies me.

I can see the Brexit Party and the Tories co-ordinating far better with each other in terms of electoral agreements than Labour (led by a weakened Corbyn) & the Lib Dems (who can't stand Corbyn and are themselves led by someone who's been in the job 5 mins and still learning the ropes).  I really do worry about Labour and the Lib Dems screwing up if it were to come to another election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 11:44:57
Well the public are being brainwashed daily by the "Corbyn is a danger" line. Every time a Tory is interviewed they trot that out. You can tell the emails/orders have been flying about in that regard. Tell the people the same thing over and over and they'll believe it I suppose. More reason why Labour need a new leader to take the Tories on. The smears have worked where Corbyn is concerned

Make him a toxic brand in time for the GE.

With Labours fence sitting on Brexit, and a hard right Tory party heading off Ferage it could actually work too :(

edit: See Nick Boles knows.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 11:46:08
In fairness Swindon had a leave majority. So "we" deserve it.


Church closed the gap on him last time. I think she can topple him next time around.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 11:48:37
Church closed the gap on him last time. I think she can topple him next time around.

We'll have to see.

Labour played a blinder (from where they started) last time. But I think she'll pay the price for Corbyn's ineffectiveness/dithering.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 11:57:36
https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1154352034419740672

'Dom Cummings’ strategy is clear: to reunite the Leave vote, see off the Brexit Party and win an election against a Remain vote divided between Labour, the LibDems and the SNP//Plaid Cymru/Greens. If Labour MPs don’t get rid of Corbyn, it will probably work.'

This is what I was alluding to yesterday, and it terrifies me.


The replies to that tweet say it all really, blind bullshit from all sides.

However I do think that the only remain voters who might vote Labour are those who would vote Labour if you put a red rosette on a donkey, the rest have fucked him right off.

Ian Dunts live tweeting thread of RM's and Johnson speeches has some thoughts about this at the end...

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1154323679297318912


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 13:33:03
Well the public are being brainwashed daily by the "Corbyn is a danger" line. Every time a Tory is interviewed they trot that out. You can tell the emails/orders have been flying about in that regard. Tell the people the same thing over and over and they'll believe it I suppose. More reason why Labour need a new leader to take the Tories on. The smears have worked where Corbyn is concerned

I fear that your last sentence could be true - the media and Tory politicians (same thing in almost all cases) have done a good job of muddying his water.

But I'm only basing that on the quantity of dirt they throw at him and not really considering whether it actually sticks. It's been such a steady onslaught, with some nice peaks, that some of it has to now. In a small number of cases the obvious negativity and agenda against him have alerted people to him and caused them to properly research his record and eventually become supporters of his ideals, and in more cases it's hardened existing support.

The recent local elections were poor/okay for him/Labour from what I recall, but were very topical and specific at the time. A general election would be interesting most of all because it could reveal a large disparity between the media and the public opinion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 13:42:10
I fear that your last sentence could be true - the media and Tory politicians (same thing in almost all cases) have done a good job of muddying his water.

But I'm only basing that on the quantity of dirt they throw at him and not really considering whether it actually sticks. It's been such a steady onslaught, with some nice peaks, that some of it has to now. In a small number of cases the obvious negativity and agenda against him have alerted people to him and caused them to properly research his record and eventually become supporters of his ideals, and in more cases it's hardened existing support.

The recent local elections were poor/okay for him/Labour from what I recall, but were very topical and specific at the time. A general election would be interesting most of all because it could reveal a large disparity between the media and the public opinion.
I think that was true of the last election, where Corbyn/Labour rose above the smears and so largely confounded media expectations in results. Since then, he has largely wasted that momentum (no pun intended) by dithering over Brexit and equivocating over anti-Semitism. He can't blame the smears any more, they're still there of course they are, any Labour leader will have to deal with that from a largely hostile right wing press, but the way Labour have fallen back from their election position is largely of Corbyn's own making.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 13:54:55
The recent local elections were poor/okay for him/Labour from what I recall,

The most recent locals were shite for Labour, especially when you consider where they came in the electoral cycles, they lost 6 Councils and 84 councillors which for a party trying to get elected to do that badly when the ruling party got decimated was frankly embarrassing for them.

FWIW I don't think just changing the leader will achieve a great deal if the power behind the throne stays in post, Corbyn is just a handy figurehead.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 14:07:52
However I do think that the only remain voters who might vote Labour are those who would vote Labour if you put a red rosette on a donkey, the rest have fucked him right off.

Total bollocks. I live in South Swindon, it's the Torys or Labour. No one else has a chance of winning. FPtP means I have to vote Labour because I hate the Torys.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 14:32:38
Total bollocks. I live in South Swindon, it's the Torys or Labour. No one else has a chance of winning. FPtP means I have to vote Labour because I hate the Torys.
*Tories

Sorry, OCD kicked in :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 14:32:46
Total bollocks. I live in South Swindon, it's the Torys or Labour. No one else has a chance of winning. FPtP means I have to vote Labour because I hate the Torys.

I didn't phrase it very well as I was referring to the floating voter who is not fucked by FptP however you have proved the point I am making people are voting Labour to keep the Tories out not because of Corbyn despite what the cultists would have you believe.

Its similar round here in that Farron (who despite being something of a bigot and a woeful party leader is a very good constituency MP) picks up the sane vote as its a straight LD v. Tory vote here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 14:48:18
*Tories

Sorry, OCD kicked in :)

It's a proper noun though?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, July 25, 2019, 22:08:08
Total bollocks. I live in South Swindon, it's the Torys or Labour. No one else has a chance of winning. FPtP means I have to vote Labour because I hate the Torys.

FPTP Means I want to vote for the Tories.. You don’t have to vote labour, if you don’t feel you want to, new or old. Other political parties are often on the ballot paper. The same goes for me should I feel I cannot vote for the Tories.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, July 26, 2019, 07:24:56
20,000 extra police officers says Boris. Well, they're not extra are they? They're just replacing some of the 21,000(and still rising) that were made redundant since 2010. Not to mention the support staff which take the total to 45,000 people. Still, crime rocketing is all Sadiq Kahn's fault isn't it???
That's what the Tories have been shouting continually, and the brainless Tommy Robinson supporters like to say this too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, July 31, 2019, 14:48:19
This is very worrying for those of us who fear Boris Johnson...

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1156569317292609536

Expect an election soon, Leave vote to consolidate around the Tories, and the Remain vote split between Labour (looking increasingly more confused and rudderless by the day) and the Lib Dems.  Johnson's going to get his majority back in no time.  So depressing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Wednesday, July 31, 2019, 15:10:43
This is very worrying for those of us who fear Boris Johnson...

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1156569317292609536

Expect an election soon, Leave vote to consolidate around the Tories, and the Remain vote split between Labour (looking increasingly more confused and rudderless by the day) and the Lib Dems.  Johnson's going to get his majority back in no time.  So depressing.

This paints a different picture.

http://principalfish.co.uk/electionmaps/?map=prediction

Apparently the 'bounce' a new leader gets is smaller for Johnson than May.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dogs on Wednesday, July 31, 2019, 15:16:58
It's a given. I fully expect a Tory majority come early November. Bojo and Farage get on quite well and I already know personally that as long as Johnson commits to a deal sans backstop, the Brexit Party are prepared to make way in all marginals.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 31, 2019, 15:37:00
It's a given. I fully expect a Tory majority come early November. Bojo and Farage get on quite well
But Farage hates Dominic Cummings and has ruled out working with the Tories while he is around (he's not a "True Believer" apparently - turns out Brexit's a religion, not a policy). And Johnson is committed to him as his main adviser.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, August 1, 2019, 09:35:52
Polls are moot at this point. Everything would change in the event of GE campaigning.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, August 1, 2019, 09:45:58
Polls are moot at this point. Everything would change in the event of GE campaigning.
In the event of? Johnson's already started.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, August 1, 2019, 12:11:34
If there is an election in the next few months, Johnson will need to fight it on a No Deal platform.  To argue that he is still holding out for a deal with EU would not stand up to scrutiny anywhere.  And if the Tories do win a majority on the basis of campaigning on a No Deal platform, the country will then deserve everything it gets.

I'm almost past caring now.  This shitshow has carried on far too long already.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, August 1, 2019, 12:38:14
It's a given. I fully expect a Tory majority come early November. Bojo and Farage get on quite well and I already know personally that as long as Johnson commits to a deal sans backstop, the Brexit Party are prepared to make way in all marginals.

ITK?  :hmmm:

A BP : Con electoral Pact (open or otherwise) could be a game changer with our FPTP system.

I think there are quite a few variables other than any possible pact for no backstop arrangement.

The result of today's Brecon and Radnor Byelection meanwhile will be be interesting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, August 1, 2019, 13:08:56
Barely a week into the job, and Buckland's fucked up already:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/01/no-10-rebuffs-new-ministers-backing-for-pre-charge-anonymity


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, August 2, 2019, 08:59:29
Barely a week into the job, and Buckland's fucked up already:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/01/no-10-rebuffs-new-ministers-backing-for-pre-charge-anonymity

The recent sight of Buckland in his regalia was a truly sickening thing... almost Louis XVIth flummery. 

This at a time when stabbings now seem a weekly occurence on the streets of Swindon.... SBC tries to get a couple of mill from HMG to tart up Old Town, but won't, because they're spunking 2 bill on the  pointless no deal preps, which Buckland now supports to get his costume.

Further the boss of BMW has offered to come over from Germany to explain personally to HMG, why no deal will finish Cowley and by association Gypsy Lane, yet Buckland remains silent.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, August 2, 2019, 09:04:01
I would imagine that both parties have a lot of thinking to do after yesterdays result.

Possibly the most amusing bit was that the LD's beat the Tories by more than Labour beat the MRLP.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, August 2, 2019, 09:08:16
Bit tricky that one because the Brexit Party took enough Tory votes to prevent them from winning, had they withdrawn....
Plus Lib Dems got the greens and whatsit whatsit to stand aside thus got undiluted "remain" votes.
Plus the bi-election was triggered by and expenses scandal wasn't it?

Anyway none of that explains Labours performance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, August 2, 2019, 09:10:59
The recent sight of Buckland in his regalia was a truly sickening thing... almost Louis XVIth flummery. 

This at a time when stabbings now seem a weekly occurence on the streets of Swindon.... SBC tries to get a couple of mill from HMG to tart up Old Town, but won't, because they're spunking 2 bill on the  pointless no deal preps, which Buckland now supports to get his costume.

Further the boss of BMW has offered to come over from Germany to explain personally to HMG, why no deal will finish Cowley and by association Gypsy Lane, yet Buckland remains silent.
Difficult for him to speak out when he's got his tongue firmly jammed up Johnson's arse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, August 2, 2019, 09:12:14
Bit tricky that one because the Brexit Party took enough Tory votes to prevent them from winning, had they withdrawn....
Plus Lib Dems got the greens and whatsit whatsit to stand aside thus got undiluted "remain" votes.
Plus the bi-election was triggered by and expenses scandal wasn't it?

Anyway none of that explains Labours performance.
Corbyn mainly explains Labour's lack of performance, he's a fucking disaster. Hilariously, Farage's mob seem to have further weakened the most hard Brexit govt we're ever going to have. Nice own goal, Nige.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, August 2, 2019, 09:30:45
Bit tricky that one because the Brexit Party took enough Tory votes to prevent them from winning, had they withdrawn....
Plus Lib Dems got the greens and whatsit whatsit to stand aside thus got undiluted "remain" votes.
Plus the bi-election was triggered by and expenses scandal wasn't it?

Anyway none of that explains Labours performance.

I don't think anything particularly strong can be interpreted by the results, although it possibly may calm Johnsons rush to an election for a while.

Prof. Curtice was on R4 this morning and his analysis was interesting his 'election now' top line figure was the Tories could loose around 40 seats to the LD's and with other marginals and the situation north of the border with the Scottish Tory's being decimated he was looking at up to 100 seats lost from the Tory party. Of course such a analysis is on the back of a by-election is always unpredictable as is the length of time any new PM keeps his bounce in the polls especially when all his positive promises are likely to come to nowt and we are into no-deal train crash.

To get the hard line vote back its going to take some manner of pact between Tory and Farage Ltd, the fly in the ointment being that the newly appointed power behind Johnson (Cummings) and Farage loathe each other as Farage doesn't seem to think that Cummings is ideologically pure enough. THe key is going to be whether Bannon can act on behalf of the powers that be and get them to play nicely for the good of supremacy and the project.

In other news...

a) it would still be funny if Sinn Fein decide that as they can essentially bring the government down by just rolling up for a few days they take their seats albeit very temporarily, and;

b) the lass who won the seat for the LD's is looking fine at 55!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, August 2, 2019, 09:47:24
Over all looks like fun. Not even at half time yet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, August 2, 2019, 11:11:11
a) it would still be funny if Sinn Fein decide that as they can essentially bring the government down by just rolling up for a few days they take their seats albeit very temporarily

Can people just stop with the SF fantasies? They will not take their seats in Westminster. Ever. End of. No discussions. To even suggest it makes anybody know even remotely understands (Northern) Irish politics go blind from extreme eye-rolling.

Those MPs were elected on the basis that they wouldn't take their seats. It's not going to happen.

From the horse's mouth:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/06/sinn-fein-mp-british-parliament-irish-republicans-brexit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, August 2, 2019, 11:26:24
Can people just stop with the SF fantasies? They will not take their seats in Westminster. Ever. End of. No discussions. To even suggest it makes anybody know even remotely understands (Northern) Irish politics go blind from extreme eye-rolling.

Those MPs were elected on the basis that they wouldn't take their seats. It's not going to happen.
Quite. And even if they were minded to take their seats (which they're not), they're more than happy to see as hard a Brexit as the last Prime Minister of the UK can manage to muster as they calculate it will hasten their aims of a United Ireland.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, August 2, 2019, 12:27:00
SF won't turn up at the HC - that IS fantasy.

However, I fear the above summations hint at some form of ITK insider knowledge or otherwise mis-characterise the SF position.

The facts are that it has argued that the north  be designated special status within the EU and for the whole island of Ireland to remain within the EU together.  

SF has argued that the European Union needs to change, sure.  It would like a "social Europe", promoting peace,  economic and social justice, international solidarity and extended democratic accountability.

It argues that such complementary status could protect farming on both sides of the border.

These sort of views on the EU and on the island of Ireland may be anathema to the Brexitists.  However if the above posts are dismissing SF policy as wanting chaos and a return to violence and therefore influence, then those arguments are, imo, of a bottom dredging nature that is too common in Brexit debates.

Unless there is actual evidence....?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, August 2, 2019, 12:42:21
These sort of views on the EU and on the island of Ireland may be anathema to the Brexitists.  However if the above posts are dismissing SF policy as wanting chaos and a return to violence and therefore influence, then those arguments are, imo, of a bottom dredging nature that is too common in Brexit debates.
There was nothing in any of the above posts that implied that. SF are on record as saying that an immediate consequence of a hard Brexit should be an immediate border referendum on unification.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, August 2, 2019, 12:49:09
Fair point.

I badly over-read what the posts were actually suggesting....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, August 2, 2019, 12:55:06
Eire / Northern Ireland.

The clue is in the name.
The prospect of reunification.
If some in the six counties don't like it then they can always be replanted back to Scotland.
Maybe too far fetched as a master No Deal exit plan.
Blow Job could do with a shoring up of the Tory vote north of the border though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, August 2, 2019, 13:00:27
Fair point.

I badly over-read what the posts were actually suggesting....
Not the first time that's ever happened on here. May have been guilty myself occasionally (approx once a week :) )


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, August 2, 2019, 14:37:47
I wasn't suggesting anything. I have an interest in NI politics as I have NI heritage.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, August 2, 2019, 18:29:53
Back to Brecon, WTF were the Tories thinking standing a convicted fraudster in a by-election caused by the recall petition for said fraudster? Did they not want to win? Was this a "leaving present" from the May regime for Johnson?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Friday, August 2, 2019, 18:54:59
Back to Brecon, WTF were the Tories thinking standing a convicted fraudster in a by-election caused by the recall petition for said fraudster? Did they not want to win? Was this a "leaving present" from the May regime for Johnson?

It was arranged by that remain fanatic Tereason May before she handed over to Boris.
Despite his fraud she backed him over the local party members who didn't want him as their candidate.
She's spent her time as PM reducing a working majority to ensure brexit isn't activated.
She was very effective and delivering that agenda, for which she will be richly rewarded.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, August 2, 2019, 21:26:19
 :twat:
It was arranged by that remain fanatic Tereason May before she handed over to Boris.
Despite his fraud she backed him over the local party members who didn't want him as their candidate.
She's spent her time as PM reducing a working majority to ensure brexit isn't activated.
She was very effective and delivering that agenda, for which she will be richly rewarded.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Saturday, August 3, 2019, 06:12:04
I live in Brecon & Radnorshire, and it is being said that, although the former MP announced he intended to stand again, it was in fact Conservative Central Office that insisted he stand and take the rap because they did not think it fair for a new candidate to face defeat for his misdemeanor. Does not justify the warm support he got from BJ or Rees Mog, both of whom visited. Perhaps they realised the disaster defeat would be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, August 3, 2019, 07:52:32
I live in Brecon & Radnorshire, and it is being said that, although the former MP announced he intended to stand again, it was in fact Conservative Central Office that insisted he stand and take the rap because they did not think it fair for a new candidate to face defeat for his misdemeanor. Does not justify the warm support he got from BJ or Rees Mog, both of whom visited. Perhaps they realised the disaster defeat would be.
Which is all very nice and might be credible if they had a majority of 43, but given the parliamentary arithmetic as it was even when the by-election was called, they really couldn't afford to lose this seat. Against a backdrop when they're happy to rely on the vote of an MP shortly due to appear in court on rape charges, these kind of scruples seem oddly out of place at a time of real an constant crisis for the government. Maybe they were worried they were going to take a bigger whopping, no matter who they put in, so wanted to be able to use the line "Yeah, well we stood a crook so no big surprise we lost"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Saturday, August 3, 2019, 09:32:37
Exactly....a risky option, but at the moment they seem more concerned by the Brexit Party than by the Lib Dems and, for whatever reason, the Farageists failed significantly in what would seem potentially fertile territory.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, August 3, 2019, 10:22:02
It was arranged by that remain fanatic Tereason May before she handed over to Boris.
Despite his fraud she backed him over the local party members who didn't want him as their candidate.
As for the politics, Chris Davis is a convicted forger, true, and he is also a lifelong Eurosceptic and ERG member.  Own it.

More relevant though is not Chris Davis' dishonesty but your own:

TM did not of course arrange Chris Davis' candidature for the byelection.  The local party association membership did by democratic vote in a meeting at Talgarth.

Apologies to most readers or posters who  doubtless already know most of the above.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, August 3, 2019, 13:40:00
Exactly....a risky option, but at the moment they seem more concerned by the Brexit Party than by the Lib Dems and, for whatever reason, the Farageists failed significantly in what would seem potentially fertile territory.
They did however succeed admirably in splitting the Leave vote, thereby handing the seat to the pro-Remain Lib Dems.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7TKGRHLyFXdeziyk/giphy.gif)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Saturday, August 3, 2019, 13:49:58
Being one of them, I remain grateful to the Brexit Party for their achievement!!! ;D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, August 10, 2019, 18:29:34
The new leader of UKIP is called, and I kid you fucking not, Dick Braine :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, August 10, 2019, 20:06:41
The new leader of UKIP is called, and I kid you fucking not, Dick Braine :D

Outstanding!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Sunday, August 11, 2019, 20:57:26
Not sure if this should go in another thread but...

...following the horrors of the shootings in the US over last couple of weeks I went click click click on t'internet and was fucking amazed at how tooled up you can get in the US for less than a grand.  Fuck me sideways.  Whoever thinks that the 2nd amendment isn't 250 years out of date is fucking insane....

I work for an American company, the HQ and my boss is in North Carolina, and one of my former managers was as red neck as they come - huntin', fishin', shootin' but without the fishing.  When I last saw him (5 years ago) he had just got a concealed gun license, and bought his wife a 44 Magnum with a special safe that opened with a palm print so it was "safe" under the bed and easy for her to get to when she needed it.  When I tried to talk to him about the UK situation re weapons, I might have well have been from another planet.  15 years ago (when I first started working there) he genuinely couldn't understand why guns weren't allowed on domestic flights!!!!!!!

Not sure what I am trying to get at - but in short, bottom line for me is that as hateful and as hard to understand as it is, the fact is that the US is obscenely attached to the 2nd amendment, and for those of us who are sane enough to realize the madness of the laws there, we must also realize it ain't gonna change...

Like I say - not sure of my point here, possibly wrong thread, but adding to the 80% bollocks element....



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, August 11, 2019, 21:10:19
It's bonkers.

One reason excuse they use is that having guns means they can protect themselves should the government turn on them. To which I would ask how they expect to take down tanks etc armed only with semi-automatic assault rifles. On more than one occasion, I have had the reply that they should be allowed to have tanks and helicopter gunships etc as well.

Fucking nuts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Sunday, August 11, 2019, 21:51:40


One reason excuse they use is that having guns means they can protect themselves should the government turn on them.

First of all - clearly I am not mad (cheers Flash) . Secondly - this quote is the whole point of the madness of the second amendment.  If the fuckwits genuinely believe that in 2019 the second amendment is relevant to stop the govt turning on them, then, well, I cant really say anything other than "FFS"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, August 12, 2019, 13:14:49
https://www.facebook.com/veryBrexitproblems/videos/502330673850942/UzpfSTgzNzg4ODcwODoxMDE1ODYyNzgxMzgyODcwOQ/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Monday, August 12, 2019, 13:38:40
https://www.facebook.com/veryBrexitproblems/videos/502330673850942/UzpfSTgzNzg4ODcwODoxMDE1ODYyNzgxMzgyODcwOQ/

Brilliant!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 10:39:58
This is a depressingly bleak read https://thesecretbarrister.com/2019/08/13/dont-fall-for-boris-johnsons-criminal-justice-con-tricks/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 19:28:53
Today marks 3 months since Cressida Dick told the London Assembly that the Met would be making a decision on the criminal investigation into Leave campaign illegality in "weeks not months"

What's the betting that it will conveniently be delayed until after October?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, August 15, 2019, 09:02:48
Today marks 3 months since Cressida Dick told the London Assembly that the Met would be making a decision on the criminal investigation into Leave campaign illegality in "weeks not months"

What's the betting that it will conveniently be delayed until after October?

Well she was sharing a platform with Johnson in the week (which was a bit odd, the head of the Met sharing a platform with someone her force is supposed to be investigating for possibly criminality) although possibly discussing how much white paint might be needed or how big the carpet was going to need to be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Wednesday, August 21, 2019, 23:16:19
It’s going to be fun on November 1st. Must log in to see you lefty faggots spewing over Brexit 😂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, August 22, 2019, 06:10:14
See, that’s trolling. Not what Reg does


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Thursday, August 22, 2019, 06:29:28
I often feel sorry for trolls. The need to provoke a reaction like this is often a cry for help.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, August 22, 2019, 08:17:01
See, that’s trolling. Not what Reg does
Trolling is just deliberately posting something controversial/unpopular in order to provoke a reaction. It's degrees and shades, he's on the spectrum :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, August 22, 2019, 14:35:32
Seems to sum up much of the right wing hysterical coverage of Johnson's interrailing holiday...

(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/68648498_2821898064506799_6632158438283542528_n.png?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQmJITDMW0UEUsnxDt52m6-96o956JzIwXAbZVJiL_LTFTE_lGG4ZMJARevJY4yLjmY&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-2.fna&oh=731d7ca7992401730f48d73e06b9026e&oe=5E0A750F)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, August 22, 2019, 15:26:10
So, the backstop is integral to the EU in preventing a hard border on the island of Ireland.

Yet if we go full Boris and leave with No Deal then a hard border is an inevitable consequence.

Am I reading the situation correctly?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, August 22, 2019, 15:44:37
So, the backstop is integral to the EU in preventing a hard border on the island of Ireland.

Yet if we go full Boris and leave with No Deal then a hard border is an inevitable consequence.

Am I reading the situation correctly?

Broadly yes (I think although there is a lot to it), no doubt there wlill be others better able to articulate it but my understanding is...

Basically the EU (SM & CU) obviously requires hard borders at its edges to third parties or the whole system doesn't work, when we leave NI becomes a third party country to the EU and thus a hard border with customs controls is needed (the EU did suggest the easier way round that would be to put the border in the Irish Sea (not that its any easier for them but obviously from an infrastructure PoV it would be for us) but due to the government being propped up by the nutjobs in the DUP this was never really an option).

Basically the backstop seems to be a legal mechanism that the EU can use to hold us to our promises (inserted at our request as May thought she could get it through parliament), possibly more exacerbated by the fact that since 2016 we have shown the good faith and trustworthiness of the most rapid divorce lawyer in our negotiations, thus they don't really trust us very much! The EU also seem rather more aware of the possible negative effects on the GFA (a hard border would royally fuck it up basically), something our politicians seem unable to comprehend, or in fact seem unable to comprehend that the RoI is no longer part of the UK.

In the case of no deal, in theory we don't need a border (although to do away with it would rather fly in the face of the oft spouted 'taking back control'), however the EU would like still need to impose one as obviously for the reasons noted it would fly in the face of the SM/CU. Add to the fun the fact that it would leave an open border for every Tom, Dick, Harry and immigrant to enter NI and thus the UK unfettered (if I were the EU I would be bussing people from the med to the Irish border and letting them crack on with it) it also rather defeats a further plank of the Brexit argument.

Final fun fact for the day, the much derided £39bn 'divorce bill'* was calculated months back, since which our noble leaders have managed to tank the pound even further, I wonder what that figure is now on a roughly £1-1 euro exchange rate, although this coule be offset by the fact that we have already paid some of it off so who knows.

The amusing bit is that Johnson voted for Mays deal earlier in the year as at the time she promised to resign if it passed, so essentially he is now wandering around saying something is crap that he voted to support in parliament a few months back, integrity huh!

*Which we possibly could not pay, but were we to try and wriggle out of it would further erode our already almost non-existent international standing and basically make us the Jed McCrory of international politics.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, August 22, 2019, 16:09:20
So, what’s stopping putting a time limit on the backstop - say, 5 years. If May’s deal is just about good enough to get through Parliament with the backstop limit it need never become a problem.

I know trade deals can take a very long time to negotiate but 5 years should be enough if the bones are already negotiated.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, August 23, 2019, 08:34:47
*Which we possibly could not pay, but were we to try and wriggle out of it would further erode our already almost non-existent international standing and basically make us the Jed McCrory of international politics.
And to hammer home the point, just at a time when we will need to be negotiating new trade deals we would, if we tried not to pay the agreed amount, have trashed our own reputation making us an extremely untrustworthy and hence undesirable partner for anyone to do trade deals with on all but the most unfavourable terms


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, August 23, 2019, 09:07:31
 I see IDS and his thinktank, have come up with the notion of raising the pension age to 75, so that people can work longer, as it's good for them. Welcome to the 51st state of Brexitania.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Friday, August 23, 2019, 09:13:29
And to hammer home the point, just at a time when we will need to be negotiating new trade deals we would, if we tried not to pay the agreed amount, have trashed our own reputation making us an extremely untrustworthy and hence undesirable partner for anyone to do trade deals with on all but the most unfavourable terms

Was the £39bn bill set in Euros? If so, does the tanking of the value of the pound mean we now owe more? Have we actually paid some off since March?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, August 23, 2019, 09:20:08
So, what’s stopping putting a time limit on the backstop - say, 5 years. If May’s deal is just about good enough to get through Parliament with the backstop limit it need never become a problem.

I know trade deals can take a very long time to negotiate but 5 years should be enough if the bones are already negotiated.

There does need to be a credible plan to have a guarantee of a solution in two years time. The UK hasn't been able to credibly guarantee that, hence the need for a backstop 'just in case'. Its worth bearing in mind that brexiteers have had 3 years already to come up with something and so far nothing of any substance has been identified or even suggested.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, August 23, 2019, 09:21:47
I see IDS and his thinktank, have come up with the notion of raising the pension age to 75, so that people can work longer, as it's good for them. Welcome to the 51st state of Brexitania.

Interesting as average life expectancy in the UK is now 79 for men and 80 for women, and for the first time ever decreasing!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, August 23, 2019, 09:23:57
Was the £39bn bill set in Euros? If so, does the tanking of the value of the pound mean we now owe more? Have we actually paid some off since March?

That was the point I was making, admittedly badly above. However it will be offset as it was calculated based on our agreed contributions to 2020 (when the next EU budget is set) and on an assumption of us leaving in March 2019. Thus as we failed to leave then we have been in part paying part of it off as we have continued to make said contributions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, August 23, 2019, 10:28:22
I see IDS and his thinktank, have come up with the notion of raising the pension age to 75, so that people can work longer, as it's good for them.
Which is probably OK if you sit around all day on your fat arse in an office, pontificating like IDS and his thinktank. Good luck working much past 60 if you're a builder. But then I don't imagine they've given much thought to manual labourers, or even care about them if they did


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Friday, August 23, 2019, 10:36:28
I am comfortable with the fact that I won't have enough stashed away to retire at any age.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, August 23, 2019, 10:37:54
Which is probably OK if you sit around all day on your fat arse in an office, pontificating like IDS and his thinktank. Good luck working much past 60 if you're a builder. But then I don't imagine they've given much thought to manual labourers, or even care about them if they did

IDS's think tank funding is a little murky, although does seem  o include various private pension providers which I am sure you will agree is entirely coincidental with its findings.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, August 23, 2019, 12:48:24
So, what’s stopping putting a time limit on the backstop - say, 5 years. …………...I know trade deals can take a very long time to negotiate but 5 years should be enough if the bones are already negotiated.

Allow me to give my take on the question (as neutrally as possible for a Remainer)

   1.   The Single Market shares trade regulations agreed by its members who also enjoy tariff-free access throughout.

   2.   The EU protects its Single Market against Third Countries, either on WTO Rules or through trade agreements (eg Canada, Norway etc).  Trading nations (or Unions) use borders to control imports vis tariffs and regulatory compliance.

   3.   A transition period will enable a substantial continuation of the status quo (especially for business) for the UK and the EU even though the UK becomes a third country on Brexit.

   4.   The UK will then decide (will it really!) what type of Brexit it wants.  If it remains close to the EU then border arrangements should be capable of streamlining (eg Switzerland, Norway etc).  If it prefers max independence, then it can expect a much more limited "trade agreement" (eg Canada) and fully effective border controls will be necessary to protect the SM (and probably vice versa).  There is presently no working system of "away from border" control elsewhere in the world.

Backstop Time Limit?

The UK can choose whatever approach it likes and prepare accordingly BUT the EU will not be taking 100% tarrif-free goods via the UK from China or Malaysia or the USA etc IF it chooses a higher level of regulatory and tariff divergence from the EU in an eventual Trade Deal.

Not now (on No Deal), not in 2 years (after a Transition) and not Ever (after a 5 year backstop).

In a nutshell, if the UK chooses to Brexit and with a substantive degree of independence, it is the integrity of the Single Market v the integrity of the UK inc. NI market.

Perhaps there can be a technology solution but what if it didn't work?  The SM will not have non-compliant and tariff-avoiding imports through the Irish border.  I also understand that the UK as well as the EU and all countries are expected to effectively control the flow of imports generally anyway according to WTO rules.

My solution would be to take a referendum in NI to ascertain whether it's people would be willing to diverge from the UK and remain in the SM for trade purposes.  I believe they would.  If that were the case then the outsized DUP influence on Brexit would rightfully be consigned to the minority view I believe it to be.  The EU:UK trade border would then be in the North Sea.

The alternative is that super Boris twists the EU arm and they accept the integrity of the UK market over their
own SM or that there are breaches of the Good Friday Agreement.

The UK, Ireland and the EU need to work together on the border problem.  No Deal is the worst possible outcome from a point of view of both trade and the island of Ireland, north and south.












Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 08:19:29
So the descent to Banana Republic status is complete, well done all!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49493632

Who would have thought that taking back control actually meant the privileged upper class far right taking back control.

A truly shameful day in our history.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 08:28:32
I'm sure everyone involved is going to cover themselves in glory here.

The prospect of an autumn election fills me with dread, it's going to be awful.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 08:44:44
......and on technological solutions, there could not be two nations more closely associated than Norway and Sweden, one in and one not in the EU; but as anyone who has driven across the border will know, whilst most traffic flows pretty freely, there are border posts, and on the main trade route between Stockholm and Oslo, a high fenced area through which you are required to pass when on the West-East route.  Anything approaching that in Ireland will destroy the Good Friday Agreement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 09:28:26
So the descent to Banana Republic status is complete, well done all!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49493632

Who would have thought that taking back control actually meant the privileged upper class far right taking back control.

A truly shameful day in our history.
Governments routinely suspend parliament to (e.g.) hold elections. There is no precedent for a goverment suspending parliament because it doesn't think it can carry through it's business. I'd love someone to explain to me how a government deciding arbitarily that it can usurp parliament on a whim isn't a coup?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 10:10:38
As things stand I'm of the thinking that I won't vote for anything again for the foreseeable future. We are not in a democracy at all. It's so corrupted it's beyond a joke. British politics is in the gutter. All options on everything are a complete farce.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 10:20:16
Governments routinely suspend parliament to (e.g.) hold elections. There is no precedent for a goverment suspending parliament because it doesn't think it can carry through it's business. I'd love someone to explain to me how a government deciding arbitarily that it can usurp parliament on a whim isn't a coup?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDDK_swX4AAvGaw?format=png&name=900x900)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 11:05:19
Governments routinely suspend parliament to (e.g.) hold elections. There is no precedent for a goverment suspending parliament because it doesn't think it can carry through it's business. I'd love someone to explain to me how a government deciding arbitarily that it can usurp parliament on a whim isn't a coup?

The coup was the right thoroughly hijacking the Tory party, this is just a logical extension.  It has to be said that if the British people were that bothered about this, there would be a counter coup out on the streets.  Won't happen. Over the last few years that we as a country have lurched to the right, there are significant numbers who'd welcome a dose of fascist dictatorship.... at least Mussolini got the trains running on time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 11:12:30
Whichever side of the fence you sit on, you should agree that it's a dangerous precedent to have a PM suspend parliament because things are not going their way. The red ken's of the group should realise that next time it could be the other side doing the same.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: scribblemilk on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 11:22:01
Whichever side of the fence you sit on, you should agree that it's a dangerous precedent to have a PM suspend parliament because things are not going their way. The red ken's of the group should realise that next time it could be the other side doing the same.

Agreed, I do think its a ruse to flush out a no confidence vote, the Tories are looking to go to the country with No deal on the agenda, but its a risk, if parliament has no confidence in Boris and if it can gain parliaments confidence in a unity government then it will have backfired on Boris big time. Personally i hope this is what happens if purely to show that is what happens when trying to bypass democracy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 11:24:43
Agreed, I do think its a ruse to flush out a no confidence vote, the Tories are looking to go to the country with No deal on the agenda, but its a risk, if parliament has no confidence in Boris and if it can gain parliaments confidence in a unity government then it will have backfired on Boris big time. Personally i hope this is what happens if purely to show that is what happens when trying to bypass democracy.

Indeed

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/08/what-boris-johnsons-plan-prorogue-parliament-really-means


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 11:26:22
suspend democracy. That's what it amounts to.

Disgraceful.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 11:28:19
Whichever side of the fence you sit on, you should agree that it's a dangerous precedent to have a PM suspend parliament because things are not going their way.
Exactly, this isn't a left/right issue, this is a constitutional democracy issue. And given they've dragged the Queen into it, it should be every bit as alarming to royalists as it is to democrats


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 11:38:14
Exactly, this isn't a left/right issue, this is a constitutional democracy issue. And given they've dragged the Queen into it, it should be every bit as alarming to royalists as it is to democrats

I imagine the Queen has enough to worry about at the moment with the alleged actions of her second son!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 11:52:00
Whatever else you do, and whatever you think of the effect of petitions, you could start by joining the 100K+ in the last hour who've at least registered their protest at the proroguing of parliament.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/269157?fbclid=IwAR3KwkFJX3TYCmd9gV7I74jIhgcw1fBPTATj7JRfEu57-fl8rpJAA38LYw4


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 11:57:45
Whatever else you do, and whatever you think of the effect of petitions, you could start by joining the 100K+ in the last hour who've at least registered their protest at the proroguing of parliament.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/269157?fbclid=IwAR3KwkFJX3TYCmd9gV7I74jIhgcw1fBPTATj7JRfEu57-fl8rpJAA38LYw4
And use the link you get when you have signed it to email your MP, which will have (marginally) more effect


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 12:58:34
Exactly, this isn't a left/right issue, this is a constitutional democracy issue. And given they've dragged the Queen into it, it should be every bit as alarming to royalists as it is to democrats

Its not a left or right issue its respecting the peoples vote 2016 and not allowing the country to be locked into the eu.
There are people in parliment who don't represent the UK but their own self interest. The speaker is pro eu and so not fit for purpose and no one said a word when John Major prorogued parliment, its OK for remianers but not leavers! Funny how when it comes to leaving the eu we have to allow parliment every block available. What we can't do is leave. The very thing the people voted for. Now that's not how democracy works.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 13:07:51
Its not a left or right issue its respecting the peoples vote 2016 and not allowing the country to be locked into the eu.
There are people in parliment who don't represent the UK but their own self interest. The speaker is pro eu and so not fit for purpose and no one said a word when John Major prorogued parliment, its OK for remianers but not leavers! Funny how when it comes to leaving the eu we have to allow parliment every block available. What we can't do is leave. The very thing the people voted for. Now that's not how democracy works.

At least we know you are an Express reader as they seem to be the only outlet flogging this desperate line, FWIW Major called an election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 13:12:33
At least we know you are an Express reader as they seem to be the only outlet flogging this desperate line, FWIW Major called an election.

Pretty sure Johnson is going to call an election, he's just baiting all the other parties (primarily Labour) into coming out as fully anti no-deal (and thus being able to cast them as anti-Brexit all round) first. The tricky thing for them is that it's a trap they basically can't not fall into as if they didn't take the bait, we'd be locked into leaving.

Might be giving Johnson (and by extension Cummings) more credit than they deserve, but find it hard to see a pathway where we don't end up with an election where the Tories mop up the Brexit party vote (probably buying off Farage with a peerage or the American ambassadors job) and the remain side is split every which way.

Not exactly good for the soul, this speculation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 13:13:30
Stopping people having the right to democracy is also not how democracy works.  It's dictatorship by an unelected prime minister.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 13:18:25
So to recap the background to all this, which on first glance appears little more than the first step towards a right wing coup!

A propped up government that got 42.4% in the GE;
With a new leader elected by below 1% of the UK electorate;
Delivering a policy possibly voted for by 37% of the electorate;
That subsequent polling has shown a majority do not want to go through!

As noted by Stephen Bush of the NS....

'What I think the bigger development today is the government moving forward the date of reckoning. Why? Because it means that if MPs do get their act together then an election can be held before the executive seeks a further extension to the Article 50 process. While it’s hard to see a non-fraught path to re-election for the Conservative party that doesn’t involve travelling backwards in time and passing the Withdrawal Agreement into law in January, it seems to me that they essentially have three options:

1. Hold an election after having gone back on their promise to leave by 31 October come what may – an election in which they will not only lose the voters they have written off to the Liberal Democrats in England and Wales and the SNP in Scotland, but will also lose votes to the Brexit party and struggle to win votes from Labour in small towns to compensate.

2.Hold an election having gone for a no-deal Brexit, whether during or immediately before a general election. Something that a lot of people are neglecting is that you don’t even have to posit that no-deal Brexit is as bad as the central forecasts. Even a significantly better than expected no-deal Brexit is potentially an election-breaking event.

3.Hold an election before 31 October and hope that a message of “don’t let Parliament stop Brexit” allows you to get a majority.

None are backdrops you’d choose if fighting for a fourth term in office but 3 is the least fraught. The government’s problem is that it can’t control which of those outcomes it gets – but it is striking that it has picked a course of action that maximises the prospects of 3.'


Whilst many people seem to be trying to spin this as the clever action of a government in control, it instead has all the signs of a desperate measure to at best get Brexit passed and damn the consequences for the Tory Party for generations to come. Ultimately what happens over the comings weeks will depend a lot on the actions of Bercow, his statement today suggests that he will continue be a thorn in the side of a government trying to trash our democracy, which will be fun to watch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 13:20:40
Pretty sure Johnson is going to call an election, he's just baiting all the other parties (primarily Labour) into coming out as fully anti no-deal (and thus being able to cast them as anti-Brexit all round) first. The tricky thing for them is that it's a trap they basically can't not fall into as if they didn't take the bait, we'd be locked into leaving.

Might be giving Johnson (and by extension Cummings) more credit than they deserve, but find it hard to see a pathway where we don't end up with an election where the Tories mop up the Brexit party vote (probably buying off Farage with a peerage or the American ambassadors job) and the remain side is split every which way.

Not exactly good for the soul, this speculation.

The interesting thing is going to be the infamous 'Labour brexit vote in Northern towns', how are they going to vote come and election, is leaving the EU so important to them to hold their noses and vote for the Tories led by an Eton toff or will they shy away and stay at home?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 13:24:53
Pretty sure Johnson is going to call an election, he's just baiting all the other parties (primarily Labour) into coming out as fully anti no-deal (and thus being able to cast them as anti-Brexit all round) first. The tricky thing for them is that it's a trap they basically can't not fall into as if they didn't take the bait, we'd be locked into leaving.

Might be giving Johnson (and by extension Cummings) more credit than they deserve, but find it hard to see a pathway where we don't end up with an election where the Tories mop up the Brexit party vote (probably buying off Farage with a peerage or the American ambassadors job) and the remain side is split every which way.

Not exactly good for the soul, this speculation.
I think you're spot on with all of that. Farage doesn't want power per se, he likes being the demagogue on the sidelines, lapping up the attention and making a packet out of playing the outsider.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 13:25:04
Whilst many people seem to be trying to spin this as the clever action of a government in control, it instead has all the signs of a desperate measure to at best get Brexit passed and damn the consequences for the Tory Party for generations to come. Ultimately what happens over the comings weeks will depend a lot on the actions of Bercow, his statement today suggests that he will continue be a thorn in the side of a government trying to trash our democracy, which will be fun to watch.

Freudian moment? That sounds like what this period may subsequently be known as.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 13:32:16
The very thing the people voted for. Now that's not how democracy works.

People voted for better or more independent circumstances, a clean break; not the shitshow of a deal negotiated by May/tweaked by Johnson.

Since you are in favour of democracy and respecting votes, you'll be happy to endorse a binding public vote on the final deal/no deal outcome?

Nobody can seriously suggest that in the vote held 3 years ago people understood the effects of Brexit anywhere near as well as they do now. Understanding has improved and opinions have changed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 13:35:46
Plus enough people have died in the meantime that the 1.8% margin of victory is pretty much wiped out


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 13:39:26
Freudian moment? That sounds like what this period may subsequently be known as.

You may be right but at least its not boring. Since treason May jumped ship in a flood of tears things have moved on quickly. The woman had one thing to do and couldn't because she was like many and still is,an EU fedralist. I wounder how history will view what's happening (that depends on who writes it not the truth) a brave victory for democracy, independency and patriotism or a national capitulation to unaccountable, unelected, federalism?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 13:51:10
You may be right but at least its not boring. Since treason May jumped ship in a flood of tears things have moved on quickly. The woman had one thing to do and couldn't because she was like many and still is,an EU fedralist. I wounder how history will view what's happening (that depends on who writes it not the truth) a brave victory for democracy, independency and patriotism or a national capitulation to unaccountable, unelected, federalism?

Well, like you say, the words anyone uses will depend on their viewpoint, but time will be the biggest influence on how this episode is recounted in history. The last three years have already added quite a bit to what people know, yet you don't want anyone to be allowed to take account of that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 13:57:35
People voted for better or more independent circumstances, a clean break; not the shitshow of a deal negotiated by May/tweaked by Johnson.

Since you are in favour of democracy and respecting votes, you'll be happy to endorse a binding public vote on the final deal/no deal outcome?

Nobody can seriously suggest that in the vote held 3 years ago people understood the effects of Brexit anywhere near as well as they do now. Understanding has improved and opinions have changed.

What effects of Brexit, we haven't left yet.  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 14:00:05
You may be right but at least its not boring.
What an incredibly stupid thing to say. Even by the very high standard already set on this topic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 14:31:55
Well, like you say, the words anyone uses will depend on their viewpoint, but time will be the biggest influence on how this episode is recounted in history. The last three years have already added quite a bit to what people know, yet you don't want anyone to be allowed to take account of that.

We had 40 years to find out that the free trade area we joined was a political federal alliance not a business opp.
Despite the 2016 ref. during that period those on the make, shut down any discussion as to what we saw in reality.
3 years has shown us that those who didn't like the result have tried everything to stop it.
There was a simple choice accept dave's shitty deal or leave, no amount of new ideas has changed that and because of non democratic remainers we still haven't left, so we don't know whether brexit has working or not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 14:48:44
We had 40 years to find out that the free trade area we joined was a political federal alliance not a business opp.
Despite the 2016 ref. during that period those on the make, shut down any discussion as to what we saw in reality.
3 years has shown us that those who didn't like the result have tried everything to stop it.
There was a simple choice accept dave's shitty deal or leave, no amount of new ideas has changed that and because of non democratic remainers we still haven't left, so we don't know whether brexit has working or not.


Just out of interest, taking note of the projections of Yellowhammer (written by a pro no deal government as the most likely scenario in the last month, so none of your Project fear evasive bullshit please) just how many jobs lost, or people died through lack of medicines or food shortages would be too many?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 14:56:59
Just out of interest, taking note of the projections of Yellowhammer (written by a pro no deal government as the most likely scenario in the last month, so none of your Project fear evasive bullshit please) just how many jobs lost, or people died through lack of medicines or food shortages would be too many.

Pro No deal government? what one was that, the May government! it spent years coming up with a new remain treaty.
Try and keep up. The commies are going mad today talking about civil war because its not going their way. Tin foil hat time and a lie down in a safe space, while think of more ways to twist the truth.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 15:02:50
Pro No deal government? what one was that, the May government! it spent years coming up with a new remain treaty.
Try and keep up. The commies are going mad today talking about civil war because its not going their way. Tin foil hat time and a lie down in a safe space, while think of more ways to twist the truth.

I cannot decide whether you are just gloriously barking or a troll merchant or 6. So I will keep it simple for you....

a) Johnson govt started 24th July this year and despite various bullshit witterings about renegotiation (on points which are not up for debate as the EU have been saying since 2017) has since that date been lining up for no deal;
b) Yellowhammer document (despite the best efforts of the Mail and Express to spin otherwise) was prepared in August 2019, under the JOhnson government.
c) Yellowhammer predicts a shitshow of drugs and food shortages, job losses etc.

So again, how bad is acceptable to you? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 15:23:34
I cannot decide whether you are just gloriously barking or a troll merchant or 6. So I will keep it simple for you....

a) Johnson govt started 24th July this year and despite various bullshit witterings about renegotiation (on points which are not up for debate as the EU have been saying since 2017) has since that date been lining up for no deal;
b) Yellowhammer document (despite the best efforts of the Mail and Express to spin otherwise) was prepared in August 2019, under the JOhnson government.
c) Yellowhammer predicts a shitshow of drugs and food shortages, job losses etc.

So again, how bad is acceptable to you? 

It was leaked in August not produced, its a worst case scenario drawn up by remain civil servants and TM's remain government. There's no need to quote any of it because i saw a bloke with a sign that said the world will end tomorrow.
Were all doomed I tell ya.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 15:25:21
You're not going to get an answer to your question, Horlock.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 15:28:35
You're not going to get an answer to your question, Horlock.

Well at least his last sentence is right. But hey, it won't be boring!  :beers:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 15:39:12
You're not going to get an answer to your question, Horlock.

I will once the Express write one for him in short words.  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Its like those girls who get groomed, desperately believing the nonsense they are told as it makes them feel special.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 15:48:36
It was leaked in August not produced

It was leaked in mid-August, it was produced at the beginning of August.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 15:52:24
It's reading exchanges like this that makes me feel especially sad I wasn't allowed a vote in the referendum, despite spending a lifetime making money for British companies in Europe.  >:(


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 16:05:47
I will once the Express write one for him in short words.  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Its like those girls who get groomed, desperately believing the nonsense they are told as it makes them feel important.

Problem is that your point of view is precisely that, a point of view not a statement of fact.  You cherry pick your 'facts' with as much impunity as SRK does.  

The Yellowhammer report has been widely quoted as if the worst case scenarios are inevitable.  They aren't.

The people writing that report were (at the very least) of the same mind-set that drove the overblown disaster projections that preceded the original vote and thereby enabled the leavers to rightly claim that you can't trust the government projections.  It's the same problem as climate change; the OTT projections of doom have fuelled the people who wish to dispute that it is happening.  

Yes the British people are wiser now than 3 years ago, but in both directions.

I believe that the effects of Brexit will haunt this country for decades but I don't know that and neither do you.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 16:46:50
Problem is that your point of view is precisely that, a point of view not a statement of fact.  You cherry pick your 'facts' with as much impunity as SRK does. 
Although with considerably more consideration and logic. Bit harsh to compare horlock to SRK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 16:49:42
Ruth Davidson reported to be quitting as leader of Scottish Tories in protest at Johnson's proroguing parliament.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 17:08:21
Ruth Davidson reported to be quitting as leader of Scottish Tories in protest at Johnson's proroguing parliament.

Not a surprise (and not really because of today, she just doesn't get on with Johnson) but does make the Conservative path to a majority much, much harder as the idea of Scotland returning 13 Conservatives with a Johnson led party and no Davidson is... a long shot.

They'll need to take a whole bunch of Northern English town seats from Labour to offset losing Scotland back to the SNP and leafy remain University cities to the Lib Dems.

It's a shame about the geography of it all really, because you'd think everyone would be much happier with Scotland, London, Bristol/Bath, Cambridge and Oxford going it one way as an EU state and the Home Counties and most of the rest of the country going to the Independent Brexiteer Nation of Britannia.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 17:40:55
Bit harsh to compare horlock to SRK.
Ok.  Point taken.  I've texted a private apology to SRK.   :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 17:43:49
Ok.  Point taken.  I've texted a private apology to SRK.   :)
Good man, thanks


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 17:56:15
First opportunity i’ve had today so forgive me 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 07:46:05
Proroguing parliament goes against everything that the veterans of D-Day who waded on to those beaches fought and died for


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 07:46:37
You don't deliver democracy by trashing democracy - you can't just shut down parliament


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 08:00:47
Although with considerably more consideration and logic. Bit harsh to compare horlock to SRK.

Don't worry, entirely used to personal insults from those who still believe in unicorns.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 08:26:49
Problem is that your point of view is precisely that, a point of view not a statement of fact.  You cherry pick your 'facts' with as much impunity as SRK does.  


Not sure why I am bothering with this but hey ho it less taxing that what I am supposed to be doing at work this morning.... If you want to attack someone for not using facts its usually common practice and courtesy to actually use facts in ones response....


The Yellowhammer report has been widely quoted as if the worst case scenarios are inevitable.  They aren't.

Yelllowhammer is not the worst case scenario, its is to quote Civil Service speak 'the most realistic assessment of what the public face with no deal. These are likely, basic, reasonable scenarios - not the worst case.' - see from that most remainy of newspapers The Times.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/operation-chaos-whitehalls-secret-no-deal-brexit-plan-leaked-j6ntwvhll

The person who has been rolled out to claim it is worst case is Michael Gove, he also said this...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECBUw6dW4AAMqf4?format=jpg&name=small)

and this

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDCY8mUXUAAOby5?format=jpg&name=medium)

So what is correct? FWIW Gove also claimed it had been leaked by a 'former minister', although its now been confirmed it dated from August and thus the Johnson government and thus no former ministers would have a copy, so again further discrediting the habitual liar Gove.


The people writing that report were (at the very least) of the same mind-set that drove the overblown disaster projections that preceded the original vote and thereby enabled the leavers to rightly claim that you can't trust the government projections.  It's the same problem as climate change; the OTT projections of doom have fuelled the people who wish to dispute that it is happening.  


Care to evidence this piece of conjecture, I have no idea who the author was. FWIW much of what was stated pre-referendum was based upon us actually leaving the EU a process that has been thwarted as much by hard line brexiteers as any remainer.

Bringing Climate Change into it is interesting, as its just another case of hoping that things will be OK, normally based upon the projections of discredited 'scientists' (whose research tends to be funded by the fossil fuel companies like Koch) and bizarrely in this country Nigel Lawson its now fairly well confirmed within the scientific community that it is happening see https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/jul/24/scientific-consensus-on-humans-causing-global-warming-passes-99


Yes the British people are wiser now than 3 years ago, but in both directions.

I believe that the effects of Brexit will haunt this country for decades but I don't know that and neither do you.


I would be inclined to agree on both these points, therefore I will ask a simple question that many have refused/been unable to answer. Can you please provide evidenced examples whereby it can be shown that Brexit will bring a positive benefit to the population of this country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 08:37:54
First opportunity i’ve had today so forgive me 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I have to admit that was my first response to it as well, although probably for different reasons.

Proroguing parliament goes against everything that the veterans of D-Day who waded on to those beaches fought and died for

Indeed I imagine there are a number of historical figures who tried to bring Britain to their knees in the past laughing their tits off upstairs watching us do it to ourselves.

I imagine Hatt Mancock is fuming as well, although apparently not enough to resign.

https://twitter.com/dcakraemer/status/1166676234211905536

Looks like things could get even more amusing...

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/boris-johnson-brexit-extreme-measures

This deserves the pissing oneself with laugher emoji as well.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-parliament-suspended-eu-rule-law-investigation-latest-a9082606.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 08:51:32
I imagine Hatt Mancock is fuming as well, although apparently not enough to resign.
Indeed, I was (slightly mis-)quoting the great principled Health Secretary


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 09:07:27
Indeed, I was (slightly mis-)quoting the great principled Health Secretary

TBF he isn't the only one with the backbone of rubber...

https://twitter.com/ianbirrell/status/1166821141207494656


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 11:16:24
I would be inclined to agree on both these points, therefore I will ask a simple question that many have refused/been unable to answer. Can you please provide evidenced examples whereby it can be shown that Brexit will bring a positive benefit to the population of this country.

No I can't.  Two reasons.
  
1.  I do accept that there are some potential advantages to Brexit of which the most easily measureable is probably the elimination of our (net) EU contribution, a much quoted one is the increased autonomy it gives us, a more speculative one is avoiding the gradual move to a Federal Europe and my own favourite which is to ensure we stay out of the euro which I believe (but have no evidence to prove) is an accident waiting to happen.  However I don't believe that it is likely that Brexit will "bring a [net] positive benefit to the population of this country".   The biggest myth, I believe, is the EU contribution which I think will be dwarfed by the underlying cost of going it alone, in particular wrt our ability to negotiate equally advantageous trade deals when we have a fraction of the financial muscle of the EU.
 
2.  All of the above is riddled with "I believe" this and "I think" that which is all it can be because opinions are all we have right now.  Anyone who claims they can "provide evidenced examples whereby it can be shown that Brexit will [anything] " before it actually happens doesn't understand the difference between fact and projection.    Furthermore Brexit has no real historical equivalence (that I can think of) so it is not like, say, projecting that it will rain in Wales in 2020 based on historical rainfall data.

I think that you & I probably have reasonably similar views on the (un)desirability of Brexit.  I think that we have very different views on how much the strength with which we hold those views entitle us to deride those who disagree.

The world seems to be increasingly dominated by people who believe that it is not just their right but their patriotic duty to decry anyone who appears to disagree with them (however marginally) as a fascist/commie, homophobe/faggot, misogynist/feminazi, sjw/alt-right who deserves to be insulted, intimidated, milk-shaked, fired, assaulted, threatened with rape, shot dead all in the name of ….. whatever.    By Any Means Necessary as one US group proudly titles itself.

I think (rather pompously) that this is uncivilised and more importantly that it is counter-productive.  How many people, having been called a moron, have ever clapped their hand to their forehead and exclaimed “By god you’re right, I’ll come around to your way of thinking immediately”?

You describe SRK as “like those girls who get groomed, desperately believing the nonsense they are told as it makes them feel special.”

PaulD believes that this demonstrates that you have “considerably more consideration”.  I struggle with that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 12:00:48
Undemocratic? Isn't that like trying to change the outcome of a democratic vote?  :sherlock:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 13:20:21
No I can't.  Two reasons.
  
1.  I do accept that there are some potential advantages to Brexit of which the most easily measureable is probably the elimination of our (net) EU contribution, a much quoted one is the increased autonomy it gives us, a more speculative one is avoiding the gradual move to a Federal Europe and my own favourite which is to ensure we stay out of the euro which I believe (but have no evidence to prove) is an accident waiting to happen.  However I don't believe that it is likely that Brexit will "bring a [net] positive benefit to the population of this country".   The biggest myth, I believe, is the EU contribution which I think will be dwarfed by the underlying cost of going it alone, in particular wrt our ability to negotiate equally advantageous trade deals when we have a fraction of the financial muscle of the EU.
 
2.  All of the above is riddled with "I believe" this and "I think" that which is all it can be because opinions are all we have right now.  Anyone who claims they can "provide evidenced examples whereby it can be shown that Brexit will [anything] " before it actually happens doesn't understand the difference between fact and projection.    Furthermore Brexit has no real historical equivalence (that I can think of) so it is not like, say, projecting that it will rain in Wales in 2020 based on historical rainfall data.

I think that you & I probably have reasonably similar views on the (un)desirability of Brexit.  I think that we have very different views on how much the strength with which we hold those views entitle us to deride those who disagree.

The world seems to be increasingly dominated by people who believe that it is not just their right but their patriotic duty to decry anyone who appears to disagree with them (however marginally) as a fascist/commie, homophobe/faggot, misogynist/feminazi, sjw/alt-right who deserves to be insulted, intimidated, milk-shaked, fired, assaulted, threatened with rape, shot dead all in the name of ….. whatever.    By Any Means Necessary as one US group proudly titles itself.

I think (rather pompously) that this is uncivilised and more importantly that it is counter-productive.  How many people, having been called a moron, have ever clapped their hand to their forehead and exclaimed “By god you’re right, I’ll come around to your way of thinking immediately”?

You describe SRK as “like those girls who get groomed, desperately believing the nonsense they are told as it makes them feel special.”

PaulD believes that this demonstrates that you have “considerably more consideration”.  I struggle with that.


So no calling people "traitors" on the one hand or "thick" on the other?

That would be a wonderful world but it is not the rapidly changing world we live in.

It presumes rationalism.  The Enlightenment of the 18th Century.  I wish.

We now have early 21st C democracy which, in my (biased and unreliable) view is sadly informed by a willingness by the political or other influencing elites to dishonestly manipulate public thinking - in sufficient numbers to achieve their ends.

Groomed or manipulated then leads the "victims" to triumphalism based on genuine (but misguided) belief.  It is tough to consider oneself (as opposed to others) a "victim"

We can argue or insult as we please here but this is the research on:false memory of fake news as fact:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-49435387

an increased preponderance to gullibility when claims/stories corroborate our gut feelings: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170918142157.htm

I don't expect anyone will read the links  :D but the point is that a little more humility in the judgement that underlines one's own political or other beliefs would be desirable.

That won't come about by magic.  However, passing legislation to severely disincentivise the perpetrators of "fake news" (ie not a token fines) should perhaps be supported by posters who are uncomfortable with the explosion in fake news and its associated triumphalism.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 13:31:31

PaulD believes that this demonstrates that you have “considerably more consideration”.  I struggle with that.

To be clear, this doesn't just apply to horlock - I'd say pretty much anyone on here demonstrates considerably more ability to consider and grasp an argument than SRK's faulty bot algorithm


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 13:37:02
Regardless of whether he is 'right' or 'wrong', SRK's immature manner does him no favours. There are some on that side of the fence that can hold a reasoned discussion. SRK is not one of them. He'd actually likely be booted form platforms that hold members to higher standards.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 13:43:56
You describe SRK as “like those girls who get groomed, desperately believing the nonsense they are told as it makes them feel special.”

PaulD believes that this demonstrates that you have “considerably more consideration”.  I struggle with that.


It may not be 'consideration', although I stand by the general conclusion that many have been groomed by politicians and the media to draw a desired conclusion using the same methods as people engage with vulnerable people, as noted by my learned friend RedRag.

I may also be blunt but this is borne of basic frustration. We have now had four years of brexiteers coming on here saying things, on the whole without any factual evidence to back them up, they are then countered with a factual response it goes quiet and then 2-3 weeks later the same people come on here and say the exact same things over and over again, its clear that facts and evidence matter little, fine, but it getting tedious after a while.

As an example, I could start spouting off complete conjectural things about something I know next to nowt about, then you or another could say, 'no Horlock07, that appears incorrect as 'x' who has had years of experience in that sector/trade/profession provides their professional judgement here, read it and you will understand why I am making this point and taking this position'. Instead we have the same people making the same countered points over and over and over again, very rarely providing any form of evidence to support their position bar a long standing prejudice and or the scribblings of the right wing media.

Would that not start to grate after a while?

Cards on table I knew very little about the EU pre 2015, frankly I have more important things to worry about in life (things that have been greatly exacerbated since 2016!), however coming to he referendum I did a heck of a lot of reading on the topic, on both sides of the debate and reached a balanced judgement noting what appeared to be based upon evidence and what appeared to be based upon conjecture and paranoia and I reached a conclusion, I continue to read around the topic and my conclusion is little altered, in fact its strengthened by the fact that no Brexiteer either on here or in fact anywhere has been able to articulate a real evidence supported benefit to our leaving, decisions in the best interest of the country tend not be require the suspension of parliament, contingency measures and spending billions of pounds of taxpayers money to protect business and maintain medical and basic food supplies.

I apologise if this appears a little snarky, that is not my intention, however as someone who works with legislation where facts are king (lecture on day 1 - anything you choose to believe or cite should be based upon a consideration of the evidence available, taking note of the source and not conjecture) and works in a profession where facts are doubly important, it gets right on my tit ends frankly that these debates are still going round and round. I suspect its not helped by the fact that politicians are now spouting lies unchallenged, and its become fine to do so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 13:49:32
No I can't.  Two reasons.
 
1.  I do accept that there are some potential advantages to Brexit of which the most easily measureable is probably the elimination of our (net) EU contribution, a much quoted one is the increased autonomy it gives us, a more speculative one is avoiding the gradual move to a Federal Europe and my own favourite which is to ensure we stay out of the euro which I believe (but have no evidence to prove) is an accident waiting to happen.  However I don't believe that it is likely that Brexit will "bring a [net] positive benefit to the population of this country".   The biggest myth, I believe, is the EU contribution which I think will be dwarfed by the underlying cost of going it alone, in particular wrt our ability to negotiate equally advantageous trade deals when we have a fraction of the financial muscle of the EU.
 
2.  All of the above is riddled with "I believe" this and "I think" that which is all it can be because opinions are all we have right now.  Anyone who claims they can "provide evidenced examples whereby it can be shown that Brexit will [anything] " before it actually happens doesn't understand the difference between fact and projection.    Furthermore Brexit has no real historical equivalence (that I can think of) so it is not like, say, projecting that it will rain in Wales in 2020 based on historical rainfall data.

I think that you & I probably have reasonably similar views on the (un)desirability of Brexit.  I think that we have very different views on how much the strength with which we hold those views entitle us to deride those who disagree.

The world seems to be increasingly dominated by people who believe that it is not just their right but their patriotic duty to decry anyone who appears to disagree with them (however marginally) as a fascist/commie, homophobe/faggot, misogynist/feminazi, sjw/alt-right who deserves to be insulted, intimidated, milk-shaked, fired, assaulted, threatened with rape, shot dead all in the name of ….. whatever.    By Any Means Necessary as one US group proudly titles itself.

I think (rather pompously) that this is uncivilised and more importantly that it is counter-productive.  How many people, having been called a moron, have ever clapped their hand to their forehead and exclaimed “By god you’re right, I’ll come around to your way of thinking immediately”?

You describe SRK as “like those girls who get groomed, desperately believing the nonsense they are told as it makes them feel special.”

PaulD believes that this demonstrates that you have “considerably more consideration”.  I struggle with that.

I get your objection to all the ad hominem stuff, but I'm not sure whether you think there's any point in continuing to defend a remain stance at this stage, or whether for you that debate is dead, and remainers should now just shut up and accept the will of the majority.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 14:14:40
Ooops ... defence secretary caught on camera admitting that proroguing is all about govt numbers and nothing to do with the Queen's Speech:

https://twitter.com/MonarchyUK/status/1167048291273584641

Obviously we all know Johnson is a liar, but nice to catch one of his ministers admitting it

EDIT: to be clear, this is potentially quite signifcant beyond the standard "Boris Johnson caught lying", that's two-a-penny. The issue here is that this also means the govt lied to the Queen about the reason for proroguing, potentially invalidating the order to prorogue itself


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 17:26:39
I get your objection to all the ad hominem stuff, but I'm not sure whether you think there's any point in continuing to defend a remain stance at this stage, or whether for you that debate is dead, and remainers should now just shut up and accept the will of the majority.

No I don't.  I started off in that position.  You can't pick and choose democracy when it suits you etc etc.

I changed my mind when a number of people (in particular one of my daughters) convinced me that an old man like me, whose future is fortunately pretty secure, isn't justified in adopting a holier than thou approach when millions of other mainly younger people's futures were being screwed.

Still not a position I feel totally comfortable in defending however.   Not sure there is a 'right' answer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 17:39:24
Would that not start to grate after a while?

I take your point.  Yes it does. 

And to be honest, I am rather a hypocrite in piously commenting on you when I have had at least one unfortunate (i.e. embarrassing) incident myself, a drunken argument in a pub with a Leaver who worked for me.  Not my finest hour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 18:19:33
But PaulD, we know there will be a statement of 'that's his opinion and not that of liar Boris', and that will be that


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 18:44:24
@ByDonkeys on twitter is well worth a look folks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, August 29, 2019, 20:35:16
I take your point.  Yes it does. 

And to be honest, I am rather a hypocrite in piously commenting on you when I have had at least one unfortunate (i.e. embarrassing) incident myself, a drunken argument in a pub with a Leaver who worked for me.  Not my finest hour.
That's one of the worst things about this whole sorry mess. There is, as you said in your other post, no "right" answer, but it seems the more grey areas there are the more entrenched people have become. It's been horribly divisive of the whole nation, within communities, even families. And the current government seem set on just sharpening those divides rather than trying to re-unite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, August 30, 2019, 00:02:29
That's one of the worst things about this whole sorry mess. There is, as you said in your other post, no "right" answer, but it seems the more grey areas there are the more entrenched people have become. It's been horribly divisive of the whole nation, within communities, even families. And the current government seem set on just sharpening those divides rather than trying to re-unite.

It's almost as if it is some kind of sadistic shakeout by government. I mean, they don't really care for the outcome (whatever that may be), they will still have their tidy pensions and offshore investments, while we all go to shit  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, August 30, 2019, 14:44:29
Steve Barclay, the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, tweeted earlier TODAY that we need to start talks on how to ensure car parts are allowed to pass freely over the border in the case of no deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Friday, August 30, 2019, 17:15:18
Think they've mostly solved that one anyway - build the cars elsewhere.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: thedarkprince on Friday, August 30, 2019, 18:12:04
The Indy, well Tom Peck to be specific, are having a sneaky pop at us in this piece:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-brexit-sky-news-speech-no-deal-a9085536.html

Talking about Boris claiming the electorate will never forgive this political generation if we don’t leave on 31 October.
 
Quote
It is almost endearing to even think of them as a “political generation”. Like the Mark and Michelle era of EastEnders or the third Sugababes line-up.

There is really no analogy out there to do them justice. Even the Swindon Town team of 1993-4 won a few matches.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, August 31, 2019, 12:43:43
Dominic Cummings has notified Conservative MPs that if they vote for the extension legislation (i,e, to block No Deal) next week, they will be "automatically deselected" before the next election via Conservative Central Office "even if their local organisations stand by them". Thought this was the kind of "sinister" move that Momentum bullied Labour MPs with. Hurrah for "taking back control" from unelected bureaucrats and the sovereignty of our parliamentary democracy!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 14:47:41
And there goes Johnson's majority:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49570682


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 14:53:39
And there goes Johnson's majority:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49570682

Ah Phillip Lee, rhymes with Integrity I believe!

Where's your majority gone, Where's your majority gone,


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 14:59:47
Ah Phillip Lee, rhymes with Integrity I believe!

Where's your majority gone, Where's your majority gone,
tbf, in practice he lost his majority when he threatened to expel the Tory rebels.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 15:02:33
We are basically Italy in the 70s now aren't we?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 15:16:41
We are basically Italy in the 70s now aren't we?

More like Poland 1988, not quite a free, independent nation state.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 15:20:38
More like Poland 1988, not quite a free, independent nation state.
That then went on to join the EU. I'm not sure you've really thought that analogy through


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 15:21:37
You're equating Russia's subjugation of Poland via the USSR with the UK's membership of the EU?  Seriously!?  This is extraordinary stuff.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 15:26:19
You're equating Russia's subjugation of Poland via the USSR with the UK's membership of the EU?  Seriously!?  This is extraordinary stuff.

We live in extraordinary times


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 15:41:16
You're equating Russia's subjugation of Poland via the USSR with the UK's membership of the EU?  Seriously!?  This is extraordinary stuff.
Have you not come across the "EUSSR" trope before? It's one of their favourites.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 16:00:23
That then went on to join the EU. I'm not sure you've really thought that analogy through

It was an insane decision, an out of the frying pan into the fire move.
Perhaps all those years under the commie jack boot gave them a collective stockholm syndrome.
There was one guy who objected but he was killed in a plane crash.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 16:06:39
It was an insane decision, an out of the frying pan into the fire move.
So like I say, perhaps not quite the analogy you intended to make. Although given our current govt's propensity for insane decisions, perhaps closer than you intended?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 16:30:06
Gove had initially planned to publish the revised Yellowhammer document (the governments internal planning document that sets out what would happen in the event of a No Deal Brexit) but dropped the plans because even after an overhaul it was still too pessimistic:

https://www.ft.com/content/c95b92ea-cd90-11e9-99a4-b5ded7a7fe3f

Just refused to publish it in parliament too. So we're being led over a cliff edge by a man who explicitly said there is no mandate for No Deal because "We didn't vote to leave without a deal" (his words, not mine) and he's refusing to tell us the consequences of doing so  because he's scared it will look bad.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 16:50:25
Johnson looking properly rattled in parliament.  I've not seen that before.

I'm not going to get my hopes up, because I have every confidence in Corbyn's ability to fuck it all up from here.  But this afternoon the government is looking very nervous/unsure of itself.  They appear to be losing control of events...at least for now.  Hope it's not all smoke & mirrors.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 16:52:54
So like I say, perhaps not quite the analogy you intended to make. Although given our current govt's propensity for insane decisions, perhaps closer than you intended?

No our government are trying to free us from the mistake Poland made. Something the Polish deeply regret.
There's no cliff edges to face or free unicorns to be collected, we just need to leave and embrace our nations freedom, not the eu fiefdom.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 17:32:49
No our government are trying to free us from the mistake Poland made. Something the Polish deeply regret.
There's no cliff edges to face or free unicorns to be collected, we just need to leave and embrace our nations freedom, not the eu fiefdom.

Let's hope linguistic standards improve once we have that 'freedom'!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 17:41:32
Let's hope linguistic standards improve once we have that 'freedom'!

Linguistic standards should be the least of your concerns.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 17:45:48
Linguistic standards should be the least of your concerns.

Very true but they are relevant when trying to decode some of the inane ramblings posted in this forum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 17:58:09
Very true but they are relevant when trying to decode some of the inane ramblings posted in this forum.

I wouldn’t waste your valuable time if I were you. Persistent offenders should be given the ignored tab treatment. Great tool to use, I can attest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kirky69 on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 20:17:07
Jacob Rees Mogg lying down on the front benches says it all really. An entitled upper class twat with outdated views who couldn't care less about the masses and has absolutely zero respect for other speakers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 21:38:19
328-301

That was a big loss.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 21:50:40
Jacob Rees Mogg lying down on the front benches says it all really. An entitled upper class twat with outdated views who couldn't care less about the masses and has absolutely zero respect for other speakers.
A doctor involved in the preparation of the government's "Yellowhammer" no deal preparation plan has said today the government are stockpiling body bags as part of the preparations for No Deal and Rees Mogg, Gove, Cummings and Johnson are still treating the whole thing like it's just one big jolly jape.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/doctor-involved-in-plotting-nodeal-brexit-strategy-claims-government-is-stockpiling-bodybags-163926007.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 03:21:19
Those food shortages must be worse than expected!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 06:24:29
Does anyone on here know what the full breakdown of the vote was?

My understanding is that there are now 298 conservative and DUP votes.  That means 3 'others' voted with the government last night.

The total vote was 329, that's 21 short of the 650.  Take away the 4 speakers and 7 SF who never vote that means 10 abstentions.

Assuming my maths is correct the any idea who the 13 are?  I assume Kate Hoey and similar Labour Brexiteers?


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 06:38:32
it's not easy to work out from this, but it does give the party breakdowns

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-49571868 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-49571868)

(Hoey and Mann for labour)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 06:47:42
here to download full results:

https://commonsvotes.digiminster.com/Divisions/Details/711


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 07:58:40
 Respect to the 20 odd Tories, who voted for the manifesto they were elected on, rather than succumb to the right wing coup which has seized their party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 08:11:53
No need to look how Wonga and buckland voted


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 08:17:35
No need to look how Wonga and buckland voted

Indeed not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 08:41:46
No our government are trying to free us from the mistake Poland made. Something the Polish deeply regret.


Polling has shown that 90%+ of the Polish population want to stay in the EU?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 08:47:11
Jacob Rees Mogg lying down on the front benches says it all really. An entitled upper class twat with outdated views who couldn't care less about the masses and has absolutely zero respect for other speakers.

(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s851x315/69828714_10216911690759440_2126101685892808704_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_oc=AQkQMSc3fjOsGl_cR4dFNz6L_ePDPFl7OYODQE1FnogK5XtetptUXUA4Pif1tnrRLDU&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-2.fna&oh=f686c47ef064691126b038bb6f5a6d45&oe=5DCF54AD)

Paint me like one of your French girls Boris....

(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/69686368_2690119247713797_808549772683116544_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_oc=AQlS1a6J1zKbMO5F5h_CnbYsvJjo9DB16xxrZ3eDy_2l2Ykh3HL8jDG_DF3rMQ-v_kE&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-2.fna&oh=43e38af4019b5448194eb66824374c56&oe=5E159BE2)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 09:04:06
Polling has shown that 90%+ of the Polish population want to stay in the EU?
The far right never bother with anything as inconvenient as actual facts. They are completely post-truth


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 09:15:48
Post-truth but not 'Fake News'.  Thats different.  Apparently.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 09:18:21
Or pre-truth, since the whole concept is so alien to them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 10:02:01
The pro-Brexit Telegraph reporting that leading City banks would actually prefer Corbyn to No Deal. Blimey

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/09/03/corbyn-better-no-deal-brexit-say-investment-banks-anti-capitalist/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 10:11:04
The pro-Brexit Telegraph reporting that leading City banks would actually prefer Corbyn to No Deal. Blimey

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/09/03/corbyn-better-no-deal-brexit-say-investment-banks-anti-capitalist/

There is something strange (and worrying for Johnson) going on at the Telegraph. Firstly the leak re Cummings came from a Telegraph hack (who must not be too in fear of towing the previous party line to print it) and now they are reporting this?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 10:18:26
There is something strange (and worrying for Johnson) going on at the Telegraph. Firstly the leak re Cummings came from a Telegraph hack (who must not be too in fear of towing the previous party line to print it) and now they are reporting this?
And also today reporting that we are heading into a recession on the back of Brexit, the only good economic news they report is that sterling rallied after the govt was defeated yesterday (after plunging when it became clear Johnson was going headlong for no deal)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/09/04/markets-live-latest-news-pound-euro-ftse-100-sterling/

Very off-message. Cummings will be firing some Telegraph journos/editors today.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 10:50:07
And also today reporting that we are heading into a recession on the back of Brexit, the only good economic news they report is that sterling rallied after the govt was defeated yesterday (after plunging when it became clear Johnson was going headlong for no deal)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/09/04/markets-live-latest-news-pound-euro-ftse-100-sterling/

Very off-message. Cummings will be firing some Telegraph journos/editors today.

From the quotes coming out of many Tory MP's I suspect Cummings may well go the way of Nick Timothy fairly shortly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 11:12:44
From the quotes coming out of many Tory MP's I suspect Cummings may well go the way of Nick Timothy fairly shortly.
Hmm, not sure. While the current situation looks chaotic, I suspect this is all 100% in line with Cummings' script. It's straight out of the Bannon/Trump playbook - create a clear divide between your guy and a divided opposition (including internal opposition), accentuate the divisions, activate your base and win the subsequent election on the back of "outsider against the elite" (which will be every bit as ludicrous for the millionaire Old Etonian Johnson as it was for the billionaire Trump, but it worked). Those Tory MPs rumbling about Cummings are just more grist to his narrative of "People vs MPs". The question is whether the hard Brexiteers can hang on long enough to get to an election


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 11:15:46
Watching pmq's. Boris hasn't answered a single question put to him yet from Corbyn. Just comes back with insults and completely avoids giving an answer. It's utterly pathetic


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 11:41:47
Watching pmq's. Boris hasn't answered a single question put to him yet from Corbyn. Just comes back with insults and completely avoids giving an answer. It's utterly pathetic

Johnsons approach does seem to just ignore the question and be a prick!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 11:46:35
The pro-Brexit Telegraph reporting that leading City banks would actually prefer Corbyn to No Deal. Blimey

Blimey indeed.  Do you know whether they specified what they meant by "prefer Corbyn"?

Corbyn at the head of an unassailable Labour majority all backing him? That's a tough choice.

Corbyn as pm in a coalition government with enough LD mps to rein in his excesses?  I can see the (relative) attraction.
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 11:47:45
Johnsons approach does seem to just ignore the question and be a prick!

Shouting 'call an election you great big girls blouse' is so stateman like.  Fuck me it's not primary school you rude arrogant prick.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 11:54:24
And I thought May was weak. He is so out of his depth as Prime minister it's laughable. I'm actually enjoying this. All hot air and bluster. He has nothing to him apart from that. Simply cannot answer anything with a coherent response of any relevance.  

Many of the public will be conned later though with the promises to increase police, schools, nhs etc, which is infact partly replacing the damage they've caused since 2010.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: brocklesby red on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 11:57:18
Boris acted as though he was on Question time rather than at Prime Ministers Questions. He’s doing rather a good job of making Jeremy Corbyn look statesmanlike. Didn’t answer a single question and appears to get rattled very easily


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chubbs on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 12:03:47
Just like May, in times of crisis and despair Boris does what Boris does best and resorts to childish name calling.
I've seen better behavior from 10 year olds


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 12:12:16
Shouting 'call an election you great big girls blouse' is so stateman like.  Fuck me it's not primary school you rude arrogant prick.


Apparently first PM in history to roll out a 4 letter word in PMQ's, got rebutted by the Speaker and made a face in response, its just goes on and on.

All hot air and bluster. He has nothing to him apart from that. Simply cannot answer anything with a coherent response of any relevance.  


From the way he is acting and behaving I seriously wonder whether he is on something, the manic nature of his responses is quite disconcerting and downright peculiar.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 12:21:03
Blimey indeed.  Do you know whether they specified what they meant by "prefer Corbyn"?
I suspect it's in the sense of "Would you rather have your knob trapped in a door or nailed to a shelf?" but this is from the article before it disappears behind a paywall:

"Unlikely as it may seem, he is now seen as the lesser of two evils by analysts at Citibank and Deutsche Bank, respectively American and German titans of the financial system.

“Is Corbyn as bad as no-deal? Perhaps no longer,” said Christian Schulz at Citi.

It is not that the financiers favour the opposition leader’s plans for “higher taxes, tighter labour laws, spending increases and the nationalisation of network industries”, but that this may cause less harm than leaving the EU without a deal"

There was a similar report floating around the Independent (I think) last night but can't now find it. Maybe it was the FT?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 12:23:20
From the way he is acting and behaving I seriously wonder whether he is on something, the manic nature of his responses is quite disconcerting and downright peculiar. 
He gets very easily flustered when his "Ha ha look at me, I'm such a decent old buffoon" shtick doesn't work. Apparently no-one told the MPs that he is BORN to lead, so they should just jolly well pipe down or they'll get a ragging off the head boy. And no-one told him that PMQs is a bit different from Have I Got News for You?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 12:26:18
I see Santa Javid is busy offering huge piles of cash to every cause and every department. There must be an election brewing!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 12:40:49

There was a similar report floating around the Independent (I think) last night but can't now find it. Maybe it was the FT?

I think it was the FT although I cannot see it either?

I see Santa Javid is busy offering huge piles of cash to every cause and every department. There must be an election brewing!

Dunno what you man. BTW Javid has an extremely annoying voice!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 12:59:33
He gets very easily flustered when his "Ha ha look at me, I'm such a decent old buffoon" shtick doesn't work.

Yes it's quite bizarre isn't it.  It's not as if he didn't know exactly what was coming yet it seems to really throw him.  Surely even Boris would have done a bit of prep.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 13:13:43
Yes it's quite bizarre isn't it.  It's not as if he didn't know exactly what was coming yet it seems to really throw him.  Surely even Boris would have done a bit of prep.
Only swots do prep, natural born rulers don't need to, they glide through everything effortlessly, prep is for oiks who have to work. He's never done any basic groundwork for anything in his life, why would he start now?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 14:35:15
This release comes from the People's Vote campaign, so bear in mind their agenda when reading.  But, if true, it damns Johnson's strategy and pulls apart the notion that there is any sort of mandate for an EU exit without a trade deal.

'Voters regard Johnson’s suspension of parliament as undemocratic by an overwhelming 46% to 32%, while the prime minister’s decision to throw 21 of his MPs – including two former chancellors of the exchequer and the grandson of Sir Winston Churchill – out of his party is also viewed as undemocratic by 45% to 32%.

Barely a fifth (22%) of voters think people voted in 2016 to leave with no deal, reinforcing claims by Johnson’s opponents that he has no mandate to impose this on the British people now. But only 21% think a general election is the right way to settle Brexit. Instead, a majority – 53% excluding don’t knows – say they support a new public vote.

Johnson has defended his hardline stance by claiming he’s seeking to negotiate a new deal but fewer voters (39%) think he’s serious about this than think he’s not serious (42%).'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 14:47:15
I'm definitely in the want a second vote camp. The options need to be clear and all options ready to go after any result


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 14:53:37
yes, it's the best way now. muddying domestic policy with the brexit issue is messy.

but I suspect it gives Bojo his best way to force no deal through


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 16:28:14
yes, it's the best way now. muddying domestic policy with the brexit issue is messy.

but I suspect it gives Bojo his best way to force no deal through

Dominic Cummings is all for it as well.  At least, he was in Jan 2016 when he gave this interview to the Economist...

I think that is a distinct possibility, yes. It’s obviously not something that we can force. We’re a campaign group. But I think it is perfectly possible that leadership candidates to replace David Cameron will say that they think there are good grounds for a new government team to offer the public a voice on what the deal looks like. And we obviously wouldn’t oppose that, if that’s what senior politicians want to offer. I think there’s a strong democratic case for it. There’s also the issue of the profound loss of trust that the establishment has suffered over the past 20-30 years. All parties have told lies about this subject, whether it’s John Major and David Cameron or Gordon Brown, Tony Blair and Nick Clegg. People have repeatedly promised referendums then not held referendums. So given that, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if leadership candidates to replace Cameron said: we need a mechanism so people can have confidence in what we say.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 16:49:29
Johnson has defended his hardline stance by claiming he’s seeking to negotiate a new deal but fewer voters (39%) think he’s serious about this than think he’s not serious (42%).'[/I]

This is clearly bollocks, Cummings has already been quoted as confirming that negotiation is a sham, after 2/3 of the agreed negotiating period with the EU they have presented sweet FA in terms of alternative options whilst instead of being involved they have withdrawn from most engagement with the EU.

But you know, taking back control and all that!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 17:02:12
I don't think a second referendum will be much use, the more I think about it.  Namely it's impossible to word it in binary terms.

The calling of a GE may be the path to finish this off one way or the other, and if it is truly about getting control back to the UK, people have to suck it up and take the shit they vote into office.  If they vote enough people in to block leaving, tough shit.  If they vote a majority for No Deal, press on.

You'd probably now have the Conservative Party backing No Deal as an option (so, maybe saying they'll try and get a deal, but would leave with No Deal).  Labour can then find a position that might just give them something to vote for (they've been a fence sitting waste of space until now) and stand on the basis of seeking a deal, but if none can be agreed by Parliament we chalk this one down to experience and get back to running the country within the EU.

Lib Dems can stand on being a straight refusal to accept the referendum results, and so on.

Frankly, that should render the Brexit Party pointless, which they are.  If the country votes in a Conservative Majority (very possible) we just all accept we do that knowing the outcome will more than likely be a No Deal on Brexit.  Sure, there are other reasons to vote for a party, but if this really is such an important thing to solve, it's no different to a crashing or booming economy being a reason to vote out or keep in a Govt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 17:47:35
I'm definitely in the want a second vote camp. The options need to be clear and all options ready to go after any result

Yeah, leave with no deal or leave with a 2/3 year deal. We've already had the leave or remain vote in 2016.
Anything else would just be those who didn't like the result last time trying to ensure they get their own way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 18:37:01
Or it would be worthwhile because people having some sort of clue what they are voting for this time.

The word “backstop” was barely if ever mentioned first time around, we got figures plucked out of the air that could be spent on the NHS.  People are more clued up now on both sides of the argument


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 19:29:34
Kenneth Clarke just handed it to Boris. Fucking brilliant :clap:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 07:53:38
Fair play to Johnson, though, he has achieved at least something that his predecessor wasn't capable of. He's managed to make Teresa May look strong and stable. And eloquent.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 08:39:48
From the dutch papers this AM...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDm_oXSWkAA0LuR?format=png&name=900x900)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 08:49:59

There was a similar report floating around the Independent (I think) last night but can't now find it. Maybe it was the FT?

T'was the FT, see https://www.ft.com/content/36a01cd8-ceed-11e9-99a4-b5ded7a7fe3f


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 08:57:52
The problem with this country is if the other lot were in power it wouldn't be any different.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 09:04:14
The problem with this country is if the other lot were in power it wouldn't be any different.
It would be very different. It might not be any better (and so I tend to agree with your point in that respect) but it would certainly be different


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 09:08:34
The problem with this country is if the other lot were in power it wouldn't be any different.

In the short term in simple analysis...

Due to their policy position, one lot are stockpiling bodybags and noting that despite our policy 'There will be enough food for everyone'.

The other lot are not!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 09:12:30
Well I totally disagree with it. The last Labour government proved that. Public services, schools, NHS prime examples. Look at the state of them now after 9 years of Tory destruction.

The "they're all as bad as each other" line is often trotted out. It's simply not true. Some are far worse than others.
Boris, one of the biggest scumbags of them all got it handed to him yesterday from all sides. How much of a cunt he and his cabinet are was highlighted very well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 09:14:56
Well I totally disagree with it. The last Labour government proved that. Public services, schools, NHS prime examples. Look at the state of them now after 9 years of Tory destruction.

The "they're all as bad as each other" line is often trotted out. It's simply not true. Some are far worse than others.
Boris, one of the biggest scumbags of them all got it handed to him yesterday from all sides. How much of a cunt he and his cabinet are was highlighted very well.
FWIW I agree with you on that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 10:16:32
Well I totally disagree with it. The last Labour government proved that. Public services, schools, NHS prime examples. Look at the state of them now after 9 years of Tory destruction.

The "they're all as bad as each other" line is often trotted out. It's simply not true. Some are far worse than others.

I can't see the vast difference or say I noticed anything much different between governments since the early 90s. Go back even further and I remember the 70s being pretty depressing, who was in charge then?  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 10:16:45
Well I totally disagree with it. The last Labour government proved that. Public services, schools, NHS prime examples. Look at the state of them now after 9 years of Tory destruction.

The "they're all as bad as each other" line is often trotted out. It's simply not true. Some are far worse than others.
Boris, one of the biggest scumbags of them all got it handed to him yesterday from all sides. How much of a cunt he and his cabinet are was highlighted very well.

And yet he's comfortably ahead in the polls...supported by a swathe of the electorate for whom leaving the EU is everything, and everything else is nothing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 10:26:22
Jo Johnson (Boris' brother) quits as Tory MP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 10:28:07
I can't see the vast difference or say I noticed anything much different between governments since the early 90s.
There wasn't that much difference between the governments in the 90s and early 2000s because "New Labour" adopted much of Thatcherism's economic agenda and Blair shifted Labour into the centre. That was followed by a fairly centrist coalition between the Tories and Lib Dems so there really wasn't much difference between them and the previous Blair govt. But the Tories have now shifted dramatically to the right and Labour equally dramatically to the left. There's a gaping chasm between the Tories' stance on, say, further privatisation of the public sector, just look at the stripping away of the NHS under "Not on my watch" Matt Hancock, vs Labour wanting to renationalise utilities. In international affairs, the Tories are following Trump's isolationist stance while Labour is still fairly internationalist (the exception to that being Corbyn's historic antipathy to NATO, but that doesn't seem to be party policy). That's just a couple of simple examples. If you can't tell the difference between the parties currently, you need to change where you get your news from.

And that gap is likely to get wider as Johnson (well, Cummings really) seems set on reinventing the Tories as an English Nationalist party


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 10:48:42
Jo Johnson (Boris' brother) quits as Tory MP.
Just seen this described on Twitter as the first example of a politician resigning to spend less time with his family :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 10:49:16
There wasn't that much difference between the governments in the 90s and early 2000s because "New Labour" adopted much of Thatcherism's economic agenda and Blair shifted Labour into the centre. That was followed by a fairly centrist coalition between the Tories and Lib Dems so there really wasn't much difference between them and the previous Blair govt. But the Tories have now shifted dramatically to the right and Labour equally dramatically to the left. There's a gaping chasm between the Tories' stance on, say, further privatisation of the public sector, just look at the stripping away of the NHS under "Not on my watch" Matt Hancock, vs Labour wanting to renationalise utilities. In international affairs, the Tories are following Trump's isolationist stance while Labour is still fairly internationalist (the exception to that being Corbyn's historic antipathy to NATO, but that doesn't seem to be party policy). That's just a couple of simple examples. If you can't tell the difference between the parties currently, you need to change where you get your news from.

And that gap is likely to get wider as Johnson (well, Cummings really) seems set on reinventing the Tories as an English Nationalist party

From your position right of centre, Labour may look left wing, but it really doesn't propose anything much more than mainstream European social democracy.

The test of Labour's potential for becoming a truly left wing party will come in its response to the climate emergency; there are occasional noises about things like a "new green deal" but there will have to be seismic shifts for this to happen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 11:01:22
So, this 2nd Referendum. If, as expected, the result is between No Brexit or Brexit with a deal, how is any deal going to differ from May’s deal with the infamous Backstop still being an EU ‘red line’.

Surely, no UK party would sign up to that. The only way out of this is if the result is No Brexit - and that’s not a given.

This shit storm is going to rumble on for donkey’s year yet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 11:15:30
From your position right of centre, Labour may look left wing, but it really doesn't propose anything much more than mainstream European social democracy.
Ha ha that's the first time I've been called right of centre. Love the way people assume they know my politics on the basis of their own reactions to what I post, rather than reading what I've actually said. However, if you'd read what I posted more carefully you'd have seen that I didn't say Labour were especially left wing but that they had moved dramatically to the left from the Blair years, just as the Tories had moved dramatically to the right. I don't think that's an especially controversial suggestion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 11:17:25
So, this 2nd Referendum. If, as expected, the result is between No Brexit or Brexit with a deal, how is any deal going to differ from May’s deal with the infamous Backstop still being an EU ‘red line’.

Surely, no UK party would sign up to that. The only way out of this is if the result is No Brexit - and that’s not a given.

This shit storm is going to rumble on for donkey’s year yet.
It will rumble on whatever the outcome. The idea that leaving with no deal is a "clean break" is a nonsense, whatever way we leave it's not the end of anything just the start of a decade or more of negotiations to try and work out what our relationship with the rest of the world actually is now


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 11:18:43
Ha ha that's the first time I've been called right of centre. Love the way people assume they know my politics on the basis of their own reactions to what I post, rather than reading what I've actually said. However, if you'd read what I posted more carefully you'd have seen that I didn't say Labour were especially left wing but that they had moved dramatically to the left from the Blair years, just as the Tories had moved dramatically to the right. I don't think that's an especially controversial suggestion.
Weird, I always had you down as being left of centre from your postings, not far left (which I probably am) but certainly much more left than centre and certainly nowhere near the right side.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 11:20:46
Ha ha that's the first time I've been called right of centre. Love the way people assume they know my politics on the basis of their own reactions to what I post, rather than reading what I've actually said. However, if you'd read what I posted more carefully you'd have seen that I didn't say Labour were especially left wing but that they had moved dramatically to the left from the Blair years, just as the Tories had moved dramatically to the right. I don't think that's an especially controversial suggestion.

Sadly its the default response to anyone who is not ideologically pure enough to be part of the cult, anyone remotely right of Corbyn is a Blairite centre rightest...

And they wonder why they just cannot tie down the popular vote.....  ::) :no:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 11:24:00
Sadly its the default response to anyone who is not ideologically pure enough to be part of the cult, anyone remotely right of Corbyn is a Blairite centre rightest...
It's the same as SRK/LL shouting "commie" at anyone who disagrees with their Trumpian world view. There's increasingly little difference between the two extremes of politics in their approach to these things, even down to both Johnson and Corbyn refusing to appear on the Today programme in case they get asked hard questions. Maybe 4D had a point after all....  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 11:31:09
It's the same as SRK/LL shouting "commie" at anyone who disagrees with their Trumpian world view. There's increasingly little difference between the two extremes of politics in their approach to these things, even down to both Johnson and Corbyn refusing to appear on the Today programme in case they get asked hard questions. Maybe 4D had a point after all....  :hmmm:

For some light relief read the ongoing spat between Hillary Benn and Gove at the Brexit committee...

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1169566180056731648


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 11:54:40
Ha ha that's the first time I've been called right of centre. Love the way people assume they know my politics on the basis of their own reactions to what I post, rather than reading what I've actually said. However, if you'd read what I posted more carefully you'd have seen that I didn't say Labour were especially left wing but that they had moved dramatically to the left from the Blair years, just as the Tories had moved dramatically to the right. I don't think that's an especially controversial suggestion.

Oh but I do read what you post and that's how it comes across. It's been 9 years since Blair/Brown.... Ed Miliband's 2015 manifesto was criticised by Sturgeon for proposing the continuation of austerity, it was his defeat which prompted the ascent of Corbyn on an anti austerity ticket.  That is such a radical idea that Javid is the latest Tory chancellor to tell us it is now over.  It's probably true that Labour has inched to the left, but it s hardly "dramatic" 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 12:12:43
Oh but I do read what you post and that's how it comes across. It's been 9 years since Blair/Brown.... Ed Miliband's 2015 manifesto was criticised by Sturgeon for proposing the continuation of austerity, it was his defeat which prompted the ascent of Corbyn on an anti austerity ticket.  That is such a radical idea that Javid is the latest Tory chancellor to tell us it is now over.  It's probably true that Labour has inched to the left, but it s hardly "dramatic" 
If suggesting that Corbyn is quite left wing makes me centre right, then colour me Ken Clarke. Beyond that I'm baffled as to how you'd find anything right of centre in anything I've posted? But yeah, whatever. #myopic


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 13:20:03
If suggesting that Corbyn is quite left wing makes me centre right, then colour me Ken Clarke. Beyond that I'm baffled as to how you'd find anything right of centre in anything I've posted? But yeah, whatever. #myopic

The original point was about Labour, what Corbyn thinks or believes doesn't necessarily become policy. 

Labour policy is mainstream social democrat, it's slightly to the left of centre... your continued attacks on Corbyn suggest you don't inhabit the space beyond him, but rather somewhere to the right of the policies as now set out.

The recent thread on  ER a case in point.... no contribution from you about the substantive argument about climate change and a way froward, but an attack on Corbyn, who at least has got Parliament to declare a climate emergency.





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 13:33:00
Blimey Reg, where would you have placed Ironside?  ;D

PaulD is treble 11 at a guess  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 13:40:31
Labour policy is mainstream social democrat, it's slightly to the left of centre... your continued attacks on Corbyn suggest you don't inhabit the space beyond him, but rather somewhere to the right of the policies as now set out.
Bollocks. I don't criticise Corbyn because he's left wing, I criticise him because he's shit. His abject failure to provide coherent opposition to the disaster we have in government at the moment makes him every bit as much to blame for the current mess as Johnson. Any halfway competent leader of the opposition would have seen off May and been in power by now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 13:54:03
Bollocks. I don't criticise Corbyn because he's left wing, I criticise him because he's shit. His abject failure to provide coherent opposition to the disaster we have in government at the moment makes him every bit as much to blame for the current mess as Johnson. Any halfway competent leader of the opposition would have seen off May and been in power by now.

The point you made was that Labour had moved dramatically to the left... not so.  Pinning down positions to left or right is an inexact science, and not something to worry too much about.  Out of interest are you or have you ever been involved in politics?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 13:57:25
Good Lord Reg, what have you been smoking?  PaulD is significantly to the left of centre, the Labour Party is a smidge further and Corbyn is unlikely to ever be described as near the centre of anything.  Nationalising anything is clearly old skool left material, just as PaulD described and is certainly much more left than Blair who released PFI onto the world.

Traditional Right and Left are breaking down a little at the moment, hence some of this Populist shit.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 13:58:07
The point you made was that Labour had moved dramatically to the left... not so
They have clearly moved dramatically to the left since Corbyn took office, you said yourself Miliband stood on a programme of extending austerity, Labour is now (rightly) agin; the Blairites are all for privatisation, Labour is now in favour of renationalisation. That is clearly a move toward the left. But as I say, my criticism is that Corbyn is shit, not that he is left wing. Are you seriously suggesting that anyone who criticises Corbyn is right of centre? That's proper cult stuff


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 14:18:34
They have clearly moved dramatically to the left since Corbyn took office, you said yourself Miliband stood on a programme of extending austerity, Labour is now (rightly) agin; the Blairites are all for privatisation, Labour is now in favour of renationalisation. That is clearly a move toward the left. But as I say, my criticism is that Corbyn is shit, not that he is left wing. Are you seriously suggesting that anyone who criticises Corbyn is right of centre? That's proper cult stuff

No I'm saying that categorising Labour as having moved "dramatically" to the left isn't a position reflected in the last manifesto. I don't think you could see it that way from a left perspective.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 14:28:50
But that's because people become more blind the further they move down the spectrum, hence SRK thinking everyone is a Commie.
The Labour Party is miles more left than it was under Blair.  Speaking as someone who thinks they straddle the divide, they've gone almost out of sight for me, just as the Tories seem to be close to where I remember them in the pre John Major days.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 14:35:35
They have clearly moved dramatically to the left since Corbyn took office, you said yourself Miliband stood on a programme of extending austerity, Labour is now (rightly) agin; the Blairites are all for privatisation, Labour is now in favour of renationalisation. That is clearly a move toward the left. But as I say, my criticism is that Corbyn is shit, not that he is left wing. Are you seriously suggesting that anyone who criticises Corbyn is right of centre? That's proper cult stuff

Burn the heretic.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 14:46:14
Further illustrating that the Sun think that Scots are too savvy to fall for the crap they serve up every day to English readers.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDs7gLJX4AAoX28?format=jpg&name=large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 14:58:24
That chicken picture is hilarious  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 15:10:22
But that's because people become more blind the further they move down the spectrum, hence SRK thinking everyone is a Commie.
The Labour Party is miles more left than it was under Blair.  Speaking as someone who thinks they straddle the divide, they've gone almost out of sight for me, just as the Tories seem to be close to where I remember them in the pre John Major days.

As I said pinning down right and left is an inexact science, and it does change with time and on issues.... "miles more left" is a largely meaningless term.  Consider the issues, one by one is best.  For example the Labour Manifesto of 83, which is widely conceived of as the most radical since Atlee, included things like ban on foxhunting and establishment of a minimum wage which were enacted by New Labour.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 15:24:38
Labour Party 2017 Manifesto included:

Only the top 5 per cent of earners will be asked to contribute more in tax to help fund our public services.

We will:

Bring private rail companies back into public ownership as their franchises expire.
Regain control of energy supply networks through the alteration of operator license conditions, and transition to a publicly owned, decentralised energy system.
Replace our dysfunctional water system with a network of regional publicly-owned water companies.
Reverse the privatisation of Royal Mail at the earliest opportunity.

We will remove government restrictions that stop councils building homes and begin the biggest council building programme for at least 30 years.

That's just three areas, and they all look pretty left wing me, in the traditional sense.  And none of them were policy during Blair's terms.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 15:25:15
And I speak as someone who'd agree with some of those Manifesto points (not all).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 15:45:52
Labour Party 2017 Manifesto included:

Only the top 5 per cent of earners will be asked to contribute more in tax to help fund our public services.

We will:

Bring private rail companies back into public ownership as their franchises expire.
Regain control of energy supply networks through the alteration of operator license conditions, and transition to a publicly owned, decentralised energy system.
Replace our dysfunctional water system with a network of regional publicly-owned water companies.
Reverse the privatisation of Royal Mail at the earliest opportunity.

We will remove government restrictions that stop councils building homes and begin the biggest council building programme for at least 30 years.

That's just three areas, and they all look pretty left wing me, in the traditional sense.  And none of them were policy during Blair's terms.

You'll find State owned utilities in most northern European social democracies.... as you imply in a traditional sense it is how we used to operate and accepted across the political spectrum.

It's interesting that French state owned utilities like EDF and SNCF are free to invest in the UK, and do so quite successfully.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 16:05:35
You'll find State owned utilities in most northern European social democracies.... as you imply in a traditional sense it is how we used to operate and accepted across the political spectrum.

It's interesting that French state owned utilities like EDF and SNCF are free to invest in the UK, and do so quite successfully.

Without commenting on the merits of policy suggesting parity between one government maintaining the status quo with another proposing wholesale re-nationalisations is comparing apples and pears to try and shoehorn a laboured (no pun intended) point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 16:10:25
Surely, nobody wants renationalisation. Apart from the cost of buying it back, prices have to lower to make it worthwhile for the public as well as investing in future infrastructure.

What happens is that during government investment falls as pressure mounts for that money to be spent elsewhere.

It’s why the railways were major league shit heaps the last time it was nationalised - ditto water.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 16:11:40
Labour Party 2017 Manifesto included:

Only the top 5 per cent of earners will be asked to contribute more in tax to help fund our public services.

We will:

Bring private rail companies back into public ownership as their franchises expire.
Regain control of energy supply networks through the alteration of operator license conditions, and transition to a publicly owned, decentralised energy system.
Replace our dysfunctional water system with a network of regional publicly-owned water companies.
Reverse the privatisation of Royal Mail at the earliest opportunity.

We will remove government restrictions that stop councils building homes and begin the biggest council building programme for at least 30 years.

That's just three areas, and they all look pretty left wing me, in the traditional sense.  And none of them were policy during Blair's terms.


Do they say where the cash comes from to cover this expenditure....did I read somewhere borrowing of upto £ 250 billion....??


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 16:14:14
Do they say where the cash comes from to cover this expenditure....did I read somewhere borrowing of upto £ 250 billion....??

Well if they get in at any forthcoming election they will inherit the magic money forest the Tories have recently discovered?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 16:18:19
Surely, nobody wants renationalisation. Apart from the cost of buying it back, prices have to lower to make it worthwhile for the public as well as investing in future infrastructure.

What happens is that during government investment falls as pressure mounts for that money to be spent elsewhere.

It’s why the railways were major league shit heaps the last time it was nationalised - ditto water.
As opposed to the shining model of efficiency they are now? Where were you during the shitshow of the last couple of years when Grayling stumbled from one disaster to another? The railways are a mess.
Do they say where the cash comes from to cover this expenditure....did I read somewhere borrowing of upto £ 250 billion....??
Yes, the 2017 manifesto was fully costed. You may well have read somewhere about borrowing of £250 bn but that doesn't mean it was true.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 16:21:21
Well if they get in at any forthcoming election they will inherit the magic money forest the Tories have recently discovered?
Javid admitted on the radio this morning that he's just blown the "headroom" Philip Hammond had set aside for a no-deal Brexit on pre-election spending. So they're pushing for a no-deal Brexit while spending the money set aside to protect against that (which was already inadequate according to the Bank of England) to boost their election chances. Party before country as always


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 16:21:45
Well, I presume you didn’t use the railways much in the70s. They were disgusting, late, overstaffed, on strike and using ancient rolling stock.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 16:26:58
Well, I presume you didn’t use the railways much in the70s. They were disgusting, late, overstaffed, on strike and using ancient rolling stock.
I used them every day in the early 80s and frequently in the late 80s/early 90s. They weren't great in terms of cleanliness and condition of the trains, but we never saw the kind of large scale chaos we've seen on some of the Aviva/Virgin/Stagecoach/Southern Rail franchises over the last few years. As you say, the problem with nationalisation is that when there's a squeeze on spending priorities, it hits the raliways; the problem with privatisation has been that the priority is the shareholders not the service and it's still ended up costing the public purse about as much in subsidies etc. That's before the bailing out of failing franchises - always the same pattern with Tory privatisations, they privatise the profits, but socialise the risk


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 16:33:05
Any halfway competent leader of the opposition would have seen off May and been in power by now.

How?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 16:36:03
Sniper’s rifle?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 16:40:58
How?
A vote of confidence for one thing. At the moment, it's pointless for the opposition to call a vote of confidence because Corbyn cannot form a govt, he couldn't even command the confidence of his own party, much less draw support from the Lib Dems, Change, rebel Tories etc. In any normal time, a govt can't command a majority and there'd be a vote of confidence to boot them out. Now we can't even do that because the leader of the opposition is too divisive to form a govt so that it would default to the election that Johnson wants. In fact at the moment, Johnson is more likely to call a vote of confidence in himself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 16:50:55
A vote of confidence for one thing.

Not sure there were many moments when May's party would have considered voting against her, she was there to take the hits for them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 16:53:04
Not sure there were many moments when May's party would have considered voting against her, she was there to take the hits for them.
There were plenty of chances, she was hated, not as much as Johnson, but hated. Remember Ken Clarke's amendment was only defeated by 3 votes and her majority even with the DUP was wafer thin. Not to mention the past few days - we could have Johnson out by the weekend if Corbyn was capable of building any kind of bridges. But he can't even build a coalition within his own party. He's a protestor, not a leader


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 16:53:58
Johnson has delivered another rambling incoherent speech, inter alia saying he'd rather be dead in a ditch than delay Brexit. Can we have a referendum on  that?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 17:07:46
A vote of confidence for one thing. At the moment, it's pointless for the opposition to call a vote of confidence because Corbyn cannot form a govt, he couldn't even command the confidence of his own party, much less draw support from the Lib Dems, Change, rebel Tories etc.

Sure, that's not how Corbyn can get elected with the current makeup of the house. The only way he can obtain any authority is by winning a general election, and it would have to be one that is not about Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 17:07:52
This no no-deal brexit bill (that's a mouthful)... it is just for 31st October, or is it in the long term.

If it's the latter then, once the bill has passed, what is stopping the EU from denying any more extensions, forcing us to abandon it altogether?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 18:30:58
Surely, nobody wants renationalisation. Apart from the cost of buying it back, prices have to lower to make it worthwhile for the public as well as investing in future infrastructure.

What happens is that during government investment falls as pressure mounts for that money to be spent elsewhere.

It’s why the railways were major league shit heaps the last time it was nationalised - ditto water.

See, here is where my left fights with my right!

Take Water - has Private Ownership coincided with a period of significant investment in the infrastructure, and improved quality, yes.  Is it responsible - it need not have been.

Thames Water for example (I haven't stayed clued up on current ownership), throughout the late 00's into the 10's would make somewhere between 300m & 400m a year in profit, which was all but guaranteed by fixed pricing and a monopoly position.  Around half of that went to shareholders, and as it was owned by Private Equity, that meant the owners.  You could say, they deserve some skin in the game, which would be fine, but...........


......that was the icing on the cake.  The cake was made through the Capital investments.  No one year of profit alone could fund multi billion pound infrastructure projects so they needed to loan the money.  This was done through an offshore financing vehicle going by roughly the same name (Thames Water), who would charge a bit of interest, as you do.  That company was wholly owned by the same parent Private Equity company, but as it was offshore, it need not pay any tax on those earnings.  The Interest was also non-taxable in the Uk business, reducing their tax bill to zero.  From memory, TW was paying over 500m a year in interest to itself, offshore.

Put another way - something like 30-35% of you water bill was being creamed off.  Entirely legally and fully available to the public to see.  That's 35% of what you are paying going into someones pocket, without any competition in the market.  Normally I am up for letting things be privately owned and allowing free markets to drive.  This is patently a case where a competent private company could be allowed to run a Publicly owned asset of the people.  Instead, financiers stitched you up.

The point is, that Nationalisation, as shown by your response, is not a centre anything policy, it is clearly left wing, or slanted down one side.  Labour were advocating plenty of it, Blair was not, he was offering out private funding of public services.  The Tories are to the right because they fundamentally think the Govt. should not own these assets at all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 20:15:39
According to yougov, around 41% of people would vote for Boris's deal.

That we don't know what that deal is yet, if it ever even transpires, seems irrelevant.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 20:31:22
I obviously don't understand politics as well as those who have posted over 400 pages of wisdom. However, I don't understand why one would force a negotiation team to admit to their opponents that they were not prepared to walk away without a deal.

If I was selling my car and a buyer told me that they couldn't leave until they bought my car, would I agree to knock anything off of the price or throw something else in to sweeten the deal? No, I'd more likely stick to my guns then set a deadline and/or up the price.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 21:08:23
if they didn't offer you a deal on the car he could just use his old car, which was better anyway.
-------
The point is that it's suspected Boris was going for no deal all along. Let's be honest, they're not negotiating, have put an unworkable backstop solution to the EU and have been on an election footing for quite a while.

if you think he's crazy enough to go for no deal, then you'd have to put things in place to stop it. Otherwise you're left trusting Boris, and nobody does that - not even his own brother.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 21:31:01
I don't think that one can be pinned on Boris - that ship sailed months ago.

Corbyn et al threw away our main bargaining chip a long time ago when making it clear they prefered no brexit over May's deal. Although at the point it was already clear that May's deal was just not going to work either, so harsh to blame it all on Corbyn.

What a palava.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, September 5, 2019, 23:24:55
I don't think anyone will come up smelling of roses


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Friday, September 6, 2019, 00:16:21
I don't think that one can be pinned on Boris - that ship sailed months ago.

Corbyn et al threw away our main bargaining chip a long time ago when making it clear they prefered no brexit over May's deal. Although at the point it was already clear that May's deal was just not going to work either, so harsh to blame it all on Corbyn.

What a palava.

We had very few bargening chips to begin with. Thats the problem May had


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, September 6, 2019, 07:39:07
We had very few bargening chips to begin with. Thats the problem May had

It's basic geopolitics.  The smaller partner to any deal or negotiation will always be the weaker party.  It's why 'they need us more than we need them' was complete bollocks in 2016 and remains bollocks now.

It should finally now be dawning on Johnson, Mogg and anyone who fell for the lies of 2016 that the choice is essentially being a part of the EU, or being ruled by the EU.  The EU, a market 10 times the size of the UK and on our doorstep, will always be there.  It will always exert a gravitational pull...whether we're in or out.

A 'clean break' Brexit does not exist, and never will.  Even if there is a No Deal exit in the short term, we will need to come back to the table at some point....at which point all of the same issues - the Irish border, the £39bn etc. - will reappear.

Johnson is squirming now because, finally, he's being found out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 6, 2019, 08:48:37
The #PleaseLeaveMyTown bloke is brilliant. Much better than milkshakes, video here if you've not seen it:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/06/walkabout-goes-awry-for-johnson-in-straight-talking-yorkshire


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 6, 2019, 09:13:23
Johnson has delivered another rambling incoherent speech, inter alia saying he'd rather be dead in a ditch than delay Brexit. Can we have a referendum on  that?

Its all gone rather Russia/North Korea/Handmaids Tale.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDtx6yJWsAEGpIm?format=png&name=small)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 6, 2019, 09:15:58
Got to love a bit off Mark Steel

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-johnson-brexit-debate-election-a9093471.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, September 6, 2019, 09:35:27
Got to love a bit off Mark Steel

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-johnson-brexit-debate-election-a9093471.html

Very good. Accurate regarding Abbott too.

She is a woman who fucked some figures up in her 7th interview of a day when she was unwell, gas been ridiculed for it relentlessly since. Often on social media by working class people who she would fight tooth and nail to provide for. Ironic.

It's the same for Corbyn. He ain't just fighting the Tories. He's fighting the biased media and the idiots who get brainwashed by it. They believe the utter lies spewed about the man.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 6, 2019, 09:39:58
Very good. Accurate regarding Abbott too.

She is a woman who fucked some figures up in her 7th interview of a day when she was unwell, gas been ridiculed for it relentlessly since. Often on social media by working class people who she would fight tooth and nail to provide for. Ironic.


I just cannot put my finger on the reason why so many right wing men seem to hate her so much!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Friday, September 6, 2019, 09:43:08
It's the same for Corbyn. He ain't just fighting the Tories. He's fighting the biased media and the idiots who get brainwashed by it. They believe the utter lies spewed about the man.
This 100% this.

I have many narrow minded mates that judge him only by what the popular press has said about him without ever checking their accuracy in reporting, labelling him up as the devil incarnate, when to my mind he is anything but.

He is probably one of the least pathological lying twunts of a politician ever, who is one of the very few that is not in it to further his own financial gain or to make money at the expense of the populate.

His major problem has been his indecisiveness at times.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Waffle on Friday, September 6, 2019, 09:50:09
The #PleaseLeaveMyTown bloke is brilliant. Much better than milkshakes, video here if you've not seen it:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/06/walkabout-goes-awry-for-johnson-in-straight-talking-yorkshire

That is hilarious


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, September 6, 2019, 09:51:13
This 100% this.

I have many narrow minded mates that judge him only by what the popular press has said about him without ever checking their accuracy in reporting, labelling him up as the devil incarnate, when to my mind he is anything but.

He is probably one of the least pathological lying twunts of a politician ever, who is one of the very few that is not in it to further his own financial gain or to make money at the expense of the populate.

His major problem has been his indecisiveness at times.



Agree. By all means disagree with his political views etc, but people don't. They have a problem with him over issues that are false or totally misrepresented. Terrorist sympathy, anti semitic views, etc. All lies for instance.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, September 6, 2019, 09:57:44
A lot of people claim he objected to the Good Friday Agreement (because he is an IRA sympathiser). That is just plain false. He objected to a previous effort because he (and many others) felt it was not good enough.

These are just plain facts, but tell this to some people and you are accused of being a communist or whatever.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 6, 2019, 10:30:42
Its all gone rather Russia/North Korea/Handmaids Tale.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDtx6yJWsAEGpIm?format=png&name=small)
Think this might be a closer inspiration. Cummings-Johnson is just riffing through Trump's playbook - massively divisive, fuck broad coalitions but activate your "base". Hardly surprising given the close links and meetings both have had with Bannon, the white nationalist adviser who got Trump elected. This is Bannon's plan for Britain.
(https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/metro-news-s3-prod/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Inline_2696030_16.9.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 6, 2019, 10:31:07
Ian Dunt's (politics.co.uk) take on this week and the governments shenanigans.

Lots of big meaty political values are at stake at the moment, alongside Britain's relationship to the EU. The battles being fought this week will help define the kind of constitutional governance the UK has in the future and the modern nature of the British right wing.

But there's another element being decided: a government's commitment to truth. As this week wore on it became increasingly clear that this really is a new kind of administration. It is deceptive on a deep, genetic level. And that of course derives from the character of the man at the top.

It wasn't always like this. Margaret Thatcher, for all her faults, was at least clear about what she wanted to do. She was a Hayekian class warrior for the bourgeoisie. She stated that with little equivocation in opposition and she delivered on it very thoroughly.

Tony Blair also governed pretty much exactly as he had presented himself in opposition - somewhere between right wing Labour and left-wing Tories. The build up to Iraq was a horrible riot of made-up nonsense and probably lay the ground for the crisis of trust we see around us today. But it was comparatively tame compared to modern standards. It was localised in one policy area, and it was all clearly in aim of a set purpose which we were well aware he wanted to pursue.

The rot really set in with David Cameron. He was everything and nothing all at once. He started out promoting himself as kind, caring and committed to environmentalism. He ended up slashing British public services to the bone and dismissing his previous commitments as "green crap". For years people struggled to make the phrase 'Cameronism' mean something but it was like trying to wrap oxygen in gift paper - it couldn't be done. There was nothing there.

Theresa May continued the trend, but this time under the shadow of Brexit. Brexit is like a steroid for malignancy. It takes whatever is already a problem and pumps it up to unprecedented levels. It does this because it is at once required policy and impossible. That unique dynamic, that separation of what is possible politically from what is possible in the actual objectively-existing world, has aggressively degenerated our political culture.

May had been passed an impossible problem. She had to deliver a hard form of Brexit in order to stop the right wing of her party from toppling her. But if she did that, reality would ruin her. This was the tension at the heart of her administration and it led her to start lying with alarming regularity. A dynamic developed in which the implications of whatever she was doing today - a transition period here, a backstop there - had to be denied as long as possible, just so she could get her deal over the line.

But even here there was at least the reassurance that we knew what she was doing. She was trying to pass her deal and would say pretty much anything to do so.

Johnson is several steps beyond that. He is completely off the reservation. This is post-truth in its purest form. We are witnessing the complete absence of anything which could conceivably be described as objective reality or sustained narrative. On a macro and micro level, the Johnson administration means nothing. And yet behind all of that, there is quite clearly a set of constantly-updated strategies which we spend our time trying to discern.

At the heart of it is the dichotomy between deal and no-deal. It's in Johnson's interests that neither of these options is ever finalised.

Pundits have spent the weeks since he became prime minister arguing about which he ultimately wants. Some are convinced he really does intend to bring back a modified version of May's deal and will this time be able to pass it on the basis that enough Labour MPs have been sufficiently scared by the possibility of no-deal to allow it.

Others are convinced he really intends no-deal and the seeming commitment to a deal is just there to alleviate concerns while he winds down the clock.

Either interpretation is perfectly valid. We just don't know.

What we do know is that he is committed to holding both of these outcomes as perfectly likely endpoints. And he needs them to be. If he commits to no-deal, then he loses moderate support from the sane MPs left in his party. This isn't as small a constituency as might be imagined. Many Tories rose during recent Commons debates to say they were sticking with him in the expectation of a deal.

But if he commits to a deal, then Nigel Farage's Brexit party will run against him hard in the next election. So he must be both deal and no-deal simultaneously. He simply has no position on the main issue his government faces.

That's why negotiations are simultaneously taking place and not taking place. Johnson has met the leaders of France and Germany. He insists talks are happening but he can provide no proof of their existence. Several rebels, like Philip Hammond, rose during the debate on Tuesday and said they would change their mind if he presented them with evidence of plans on backstop talks. But he could not.

As a member of the public shouted at him yesterday before his speech: "You should be in Brussels negotiating. You are not. You are in Morely in Leeds."

Johnson claimed this week that the rebel bill would undermine his negotiating position. But for that to be possible, a negotiation must be taking place. As far as we can tell, it is not.

The reports from Europe about the British efforts are pitiful. Brexit steering committee MEP Philippe Lamberts was asked on Wednesday by Channel 4 News about Johnson's claims that negotiations were ongoing. His response was: "That's bullshit. There's no negotiations."

The British position seems to have involved saying that the backstop must be removed and that alternative arrangements are possible, without specifying them. That isn't a negotiation. It is a statement of ideal goals. In fact, it is not even that, because the specifics of the desired outcome are not articulated. It is the diplomatic equivalent of sitting in the corner of the room and sucking your thumb. And yet on this basis, dozens of Tory MPs voted with the government this week in order to 'give Boris a chance'.

The election fits the same pattern. It has been absurd to watch Johnson contort himself into the most unspeakable combination of postures this week. He has been shouting for an election, demanding an election, pleading for an election. He has done it in the Commons, on the internet and in front of police officers at a set-piece speech.

And yet simultaneously he insists he does not want an election and in fact spent the last few weeks ruling one out. Never in the history of mankind has someone more loudly and desperately pleaded for a thing which they insist they do not want.

This stuff has a corrosive effect on the brain. When you step back from it you realise how profoundly and unalterably weird it all is. But when you're involved in it day-after-day you start to go native. You give up on the idea that he would ever tell the truth and simply evaluate whatever today's comments are in terms of possibilities for future strategy.

Does this mean he's planning an election? Does it mean he'll expel MPs from the party? Does that mean he's trigger a vote of no-confidence in himself? We lose the wood for the trees. He become so cynical ourselves that we don't even realise what we're losing.

Politics descends into a game of strategy with no values and few means for people to hold power to account, because they have no idea what the government wants or how it seeks to achieve it. People keep on referring to this as some sort of chess game. In fact it's more like Cluedo.

The game could go several ways. At the moment, Johnson is losing. But later things might improve for him. And yet whichever way it goes, conducting government like this means we all lose something. We lose the basic notion of any objective truth in the manner government is conducted.

That is a process which always helps the powerful. If there is no empirical basis to assess government behaviour, it cannot be held to account. There is no action to evaluate, or goal to compare it to.

It also corroborates the widespread view of all politicians as liars. This basic corrosion is a profoundly dangerous. Politicians might not be particularly lovable, but they're better than the alternative. Trust levels were already incredibly low. After a few years of this - of the most obvious lying and scheming imaginable with no particular principle behind it beyond self-advancement - they will be non-existent.

The Johnson government is like HR Geiger's Alien. Even when you shoot and wound it, the poison in its blood melts the hull of the ship. That's where we are now. The basic operating function of his manner of government is corroding the structures of our political system. This longer this continues, the worse the damage will get.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 6, 2019, 11:25:22
Hmm, he lets Blair right off the hook there. In British politics at least, it was Blair, not Cameron, who created the acceptance of bare-faced lying that led to where we are now. Cameron just wafted about on a sea of vagueness, Blair took us into an illegal war on the back of flagrant lies (and that he knew were lies). The fact that everyone knew what he was up to is neither here nor there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, September 6, 2019, 11:26:25
Excellent article, but I can't find it on the site or via Google. Is it behind a paywall?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, September 6, 2019, 11:41:10
Johnson fast running out of road now.  Now that No Deal and the prospect of a pre-Oct 31 election are looking increasingly unlikely, what would you do in his shoes?

Some have suggested that he may simply have to resign.  By Monday, he may be unable to uphold his 'do or die' promise of leaving the EU by Oct 31.  Another option might be to face down the ERG (not before time, in my view).  Find a way of bringing May's deal (which he has voted for himself in the past) back before parliament one last time - and advise MPs that, should it not pass, there will be referendum brought forward in which the two choices will be May's Deal vs Remain (with No Deal having been taken off the table).  Just a thought.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 6, 2019, 11:44:36
Excellent article, but I can't find it on the site or via Google. Is it behind a paywall?

Its not from the site, if you sign up you get a Friday lunchtime piece emailed over, and that was this weeks one, they tend to be fairly on the ball, even the much missed ChalkiesShorts formerly of this Parish liked them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 6, 2019, 11:49:36
Johnson fast running out of road now.  Now that No Deal and the prospect of a pre-Oct 31 election are looking increasingly unlikely, what would you do in his shoes?

Some have suggested that he may simply have to resign.  By Monday, he may be unable to uphold his 'do or die' promise of leaving the EU by Oct 31.  Another option might be to face down the ERG (not before time, in my view).  Find a way of bringing May's deal (which he has voted for himself in the past) back before parliament one last time - and advise MPs that, should it not pass, there will be referendum brought forward in which the two choices will be May's Deal vs Remain (with No Deal having been taken off the table).  Just a thought.

The major problem he had is that he does not hold a majority on the house plain and simple, and gloriously exacerbated by kicking out the 20 of MP's for defying the whip. Thus he can propose all manner of things but unless he can get the opposition on board they can just leave him hanging there (something Labour seem to have finally grasped). Even if he were to resign he cannot suggest to Brenda that whoever were elected Tory leader could command a majority so again his hands are rather delightfully tied.

Even more amusingly the prorogation severely limits the time he actually has to do anything in Parliament to extract himself from this shit heap of his own making, so karma and all that!



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 6, 2019, 11:51:34
This has been tweeted out by the official Tory account, setting aside the fact that they seem to have now descended into insults which would shame my 6 year old, all they appear to have done is create a pretty cool album cover that Corbyn looks bad ass in!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDxo1uiWwAAzZNZ?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, September 6, 2019, 11:52:34
Johnson fast running out of road now.  Now that No Deal and the prospect of a pre-Oct 31 election are looking increasingly unlikely, what would you do in his shoes?

He's fighting an election campaign, so will carry on with that. The party Conference can be staged managed, to make it look like a coronation, and there'll be more stories in The Mail about the dog.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 6, 2019, 11:54:15
Johnson fast running out of road now.  Now that No Deal and the prospect of a pre-Oct 31 election are looking increasingly unlikely, what would you do in his shoes?
Personally, I'd shit in them given half a chance


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, September 6, 2019, 11:57:34
Personally, I'd shit in them given half a chance

WE HAVE A WINNER !!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Friday, September 6, 2019, 12:06:44
If Boris opts to NOT ask the EU for an extension, he will have broken the law. And who is it that has to bring him to task on this? "No Deal" supporter, Secretary of State for Justice, and MP for Swindon South: Robert Buckland QC.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 6, 2019, 12:20:01
If Boris opts to NOT ask the EU for an extension, he will have broken the law. And who is it that has to bring him to task on this? "No Deal" supporter, Secretary of State for Justice, and MP for Swindon South: Robert Buckland QC.

People who know considerably more than I do about parliamentary procedures/law suggest that this is all rather a red herring! Apparently it can be relatively easily solved by way of obtaining a court order of which Johnson would immediately be in contempt of and the remedies exist to address this through the courts.

Also, the Civil Service code, with the obligation to comply with the law, is statutory (unlike ministerial code) so no official could lawfully act to support Johnson in disobeying the law.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 6, 2019, 12:21:35
He's fighting an election campaign, so will carry on with that. The party Conference can be staged managed, to make it look like a coronation, and there'll be more stories in The Mail about the dog.

He may be fighting an election campaign, but he has little if any control as to when the election will be held. Essentially, he is effectively trapped in Downing Street, with Corbyn holding the keys.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Friday, September 6, 2019, 12:33:15
Hmm, he lets Blair right off the hook there. In British politics at least, it was Blair, not Cameron, who created the acceptance of bare-faced lying that led to where we are now. Cameron just wafted about on a sea of vagueness, Blair took us into an illegal war on the back of flagrant lies (and that he knew were lies). The fact that everyone knew what he was up to is neither here nor there.
Think we can go back as far as Thatcher as well regarding bare faced lying to be fair. They have all done it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, September 6, 2019, 12:37:28
This has been tweeted out by the official Tory account, setting aside the fact that they seem to have now descended into insults which would shame my 6 year old, all they appear to have done is create a pretty cool album cover that Corbyn looks bad ass in!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDxo1uiWwAAzZNZ?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)


That's shameful, but straight out of the Trump campaign playbook, designed to fix a simple, powerful image in the minds of people who don't follow the detail as closely as you do. It worries me how effective this sort of shit is. So many people are so sick and tired of politics in general that this sort of cheap shot is as close as many will get to engaging. That's what our national debate has come to.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, September 6, 2019, 12:41:12
The reaction to Emily Thornberry's recent comments.

It's quite easy to understand what she is saying. I think a lot of people choose not to.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 6, 2019, 13:06:48
Think we can go back as far as Thatcher as well regarding bare faced lying to be fair. They have all done it
Sorry, but I disagree. Can't stand Thatcher but she never stooped to the depths of Blair. Prior to Blair, politicians were shifty, omitted stuff they should have been up front about, ducked questions, tried to put a better spin on things etc. But Blair and Campbell didn't bother with any of that, they went out and out to deliberately lie to take the country into an illegal war and made the art of government entirely about presentation, not what was best for the people and the country. They set the tone that leads directly to now, where we have a PM who can simply disregard the question of truth and lies or the known facts as simply irrelevant.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Friday, September 6, 2019, 13:15:14
Sorry, but I disagree. Can't stand Thatcher but she never stooped to the depths of Blair. Prior to Blair, politicians were shifty, omitted stuff they should have been up front about, ducked questions, tried to put a better spin on things etc. But Blair and Campbell didn't bother with any of that, they went out and out to deliberately lie to take the country into an illegal war and made the art of government entirely about presentation, not what was best for the people and the country. They set the tone that leads directly to now, where we have a PM who can simply disregard the question of truth and lies or the known facts as simply irrelevant.
Lying is lying. It is disgusting what they did but facts show us that Thatcher lied to the faces of the miners to get what she wanted. She fully supported the USA in the 80s. civil wars in nicaragua,el salvador and honduras . Just look at some of her friendships as well. She is as bad in my opinion


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 6, 2019, 13:18:46
Lying is lying. It is disgusting what they did but facts show us that Thatcher lied to the faces of the miners to get what she wanted. She fully supported the USA in the 80s. civil wars in nicaragua,el salvador and honduras . Just look at some of her friendships as well. She is as bad in my opinion
I didn't say she was a paragon of moral virtue, as I said, I cannot stand the woman. What I am arguing is that Blair, Mandelson and Campbell significantly lowered the bar as to what you could get away with in terms of wholesale deceit and outright lies in public life.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Friday, September 6, 2019, 13:20:32
I didn't say she was a paragon of moral virtue, as I said, I cannot stand the woman. What I am arguing is that Blair, Mandelson and Campbell significantly lowered the bar as to what you could get away with in terms of wholesale deceit and outright lies in public life.
No I know mate I was just saying I think we could easily go back as far as Thatcher as to when it all started going tits up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 6, 2019, 13:29:31
No I know mate I was just saying I think we could easily go back as far as Thatcher as to when it all started going tits up.
I blame that bastard Pitt the Younger :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, September 6, 2019, 13:43:35
I think that you are all writing off Boris too easily.  Probably the only thing he has an impressively consistent track record on is his bizarre ability to rise above (sic) the holes that his bluster, lies and bare-faced opportunism get him into.

There will surely have to be an election shortly, presumably post Oct 17th assuming parliament can continue to impose it's will on events. At that point he can claim that:

1.  His commitment to be out by Oct 31st was sabotaged by parliament.

2.  That parliament has voted against a deal and against no-deal, effectively leaving this sorry business dragging on ad infinitum, to no-one's benefit be they remainers or leavers.

3.  That the current parliament, whilst pretending to respect the referendum result, is effectively pursuing an underhand policy of forcing the country into remaining by the tactic of 'regretfully' blocking every attempt to leave as not being in the public interest.  He can point to the LDs as being the one UK-wide party that has broken cover and finally come out and admitted that regardless of the referendum result they will block us leaving in any way that they can, and that the Labour Party is simply a dishonest version of the LDs.

4.  He can also ask whether the electorate really wants a Corbyn-led government running the country for the next 5 years?

Yes I know there are massive holes in the above 'logic' (except 4 imo) and his own shameful record ought to blow 1-3 out of the water.  But that is the trap that everyone keeps falling into.  Pointing out the lies, discrepancies, illogicalities in the Boris narrative may work in the future, but it certainly hasn't in the past.  Assuming that people will suddenly start seeing through Boris is the same flawed mindset that put Donald in charge of the free world.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 6, 2019, 13:47:50
I blame that bastard Pitt the Younger :)

Coincidentally the only other PM to have lost their first vote as PM in 1783...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, September 6, 2019, 13:55:15
I think that you are all writing off Boris too easily.

I'm not (see above). I agree entirely. Way too early to be writing off BJ. There are many twists, spins, lies and deceptions before this game plays out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 6, 2019, 13:59:51
I think that you are all writing off Boris too easily.  Probably the only thing he has an impressively consistent track record on is his bizarre ability to rise above (sic) the holes that his bluster, lies and bare-faced opportunism get him into.

There will surely have to be an election shortly, presumably post Oct 17th assuming parliament can continue to impose it's will on events. At that point he can claim that:

1.  His commitment to be out by Oct 31st was sabotaged by parliament.

2.  That parliament has voted against a deal and against no-deal, effectively leaving this sorry business dragging on ad infinitum, to no-one's benefit be they remainers or leavers.

3.  That the current parliament, whilst pretending to respect the referendum result, is effectively pursuing an underhand policy of forcing the country into remaining by the tactic of 'regretfully' blocking every attempt to leave as not being in the public interest.  He can point to the LDs as being the one UK-wide party that has broken cover and finally come out and admitted that regardless of the referendum result they will block us leaving in any way that they can, and that the Labour Party is simply a dishonest version of the LDs.

4.  He can also ask whether the electorate really wants a Corbyn-led government running the country for the next 5 years?

Yes I know there are massive holes in the above 'logic' (except 4 imo) and his own shameful record ought to blow 1-3 out of the water.  But that is the trap that everyone keeps falling into.  Pointing out the lies, discrepancies, illogicalities in the Boris narrative may work in the future, but it certainly hasn't in the past.  Assuming that people will suddenly start seeing through Boris is the same flawed mindset that put Donald in charge of the free world.
Sadly I think you are completely right. Take yesterday's car-crash rambling speech in front of the coppers. If you look at some of the clips etc it's an absolute embarrassment, at best he hasn't bothered preparing, but it also looks like he's half-cut. But a lot of Boris voters largely won't see that. They'll see a photo or a 10-second clip of Johnson stood in front of a load of coppers saying "I'd rather be dead in a ditch" etc etc and they'll (indeed already are from what I can see on FB and twitter) go "Yeah, you tell 'em Boris". Likewise, with Farage, he's demonstrably and provably full of shit, but all he has to do is rattle off a couple of soundbites and he brings the house down. Pointing out that they're liars, that they have financial links with Russia, that they have political links with the US far right, all that, doesn't matter. They're not embarrassed by it, because they're beyond shame and their supporters don't listen because they're "post-truth" and any counter story to the shit they swallow is just "MSM" and "Fake News". Even when it all comes crashing down and we're using that stockpile of body bags, it won't be their fault, it will be EU intransigence or Remoaner doctors deliberately letting people die to make Johnson and Rees-Mogg look bad.

It's not a phenomenon restricted to the right - Corbynistas are just as bad.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, September 6, 2019, 14:05:26
I think that you are all writing off Boris too easily.  Probably the only thing he has an impressively consistent track record on is his bizarre ability to rise above (sic) the holes that his bluster, lies and bare-faced opportunism get him into.

There will surely have to be an election shortly, presumably post Oct 17th assuming parliament can continue to impose it's will on events. At that point he can claim that:

1.  His commitment to be out by Oct 31st was sabotaged by parliament.

2.  That parliament has voted against a deal and against no-deal, effectively leaving this sorry business dragging on ad infinitum, to no-one's benefit be they remainers or leavers.

3.  That the current parliament, whilst pretending to respect the referendum result, is effectively pursuing an underhand policy of forcing the country into remaining by the tactic of 'regretfully' blocking every attempt to leave as not being in the public interest.  He can point to the LDs as being the one UK-wide party that has broken cover and finally come out and admitted that regardless of the referendum result they will block us leaving in any way that they can, and that the Labour Party is simply a dishonest version of the LDs.

4.  He can also ask whether the electorate really wants a Corbyn-led government running the country for the next 5 years?

Yes I know there are massive holes in the above 'logic' (except 4 imo) and his own shameful record ought to blow 1-3 out of the water.  But that is the trap that everyone keeps falling into.  Pointing out the lies, discrepancies, illogicalities in the Boris narrative may work in the future, but it certainly hasn't in the past.  Assuming that people will suddenly start seeing through Boris is the same flawed mindset that put Donald in charge of the free world.

Not sure anyone's really writing Johnson off.  Enjoying his discomfort, certainly.  But the game is far from over and I'm (also) sure that he (or, rather, Cummings) has something up his sleeve.

What I'm less sure about is whether there is bound to be an election soon.  Of course, there could be.  But Johnson's ability to force one is looking shaky.  He would be highly likely now to lose a vote of no confidence.  And an election would follow after that only if there was no-one else able to form an administration within 14 days.  That's far from certain, but neither is it impossible.  It may require some statesmanship from Corbyn to let someone else have a go...but you never know.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, September 6, 2019, 14:07:47
Sadly I think you are completely right. Take yesterday's car-crash rambling speech in front of the coppers. If you look at some of the clips etc it's an absolute embarrassment, at best he hasn't bothered preparing, but it also looks like he's half-cut. But a lot of Boris voters largely won't see that. They'll see a photo or a 10-second clip of Johnson stood in front of a load of coppers saying "I'd rather be dead in a ditch" etc etc and they'll (indeed already are from what I can see on FB and twitter) go "Yeah, you tell 'em Boris". Likewise, with Farage, he's demonstrably and provably full of shit, but all he has to do is rattle off a couple of soundbites and he brings the house down. Pointing out that they're liars, that they have financial links with Russia, that they have political links with the US far right, all that, doesn't matter. They're not embarrassed by it, because they're beyond shame and their supporters don't listen because they're "post-truth" and any counter story to the shit they swallow is just "MSM" and "Fake News". Even when it all comes crashing down and we're using that stockpile of body bags, it won't be their fault, it will be EU intransigence or Remoaner doctors deliberately letting people die to make Johnson and Rees-Mogg look bad.

It's not a phenomenon restricted to the right - Corbynistas are just as bad.

You were doing so well til the last bit.

It's interesting that atm the Beeb are showing, I assume a series, about the rise of fascism in the 30's.  It's pretty obvious to show similarities between then and now, and here lies the danger, the likes of Johnson and Trump cannot survive without their "believers" and they're not likely to change views anytime soon. History seems to indicate that sooner or later this will spill over into violence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 6, 2019, 14:36:13
Pointing out the lies, discrepancies, illogicalities in the Boris narrative may work in the future, but it certainly hasn't in the past.  Assuming that people will suddenly start seeing through Boris is the same flawed mindset that put Donald in charge of the free world.
One of the key differences between Trump and Johnson is that at least some of his own party do have the balls to stand up to him, unlike the craven display of 99% of US Republican politicians who know it's a shitshow but cling on to his populist/white nationalist coat-tails nonetheless. And even among those not prepared to speak out, the queue for the exit door in the Tory Party is growing by the day, seems to be every few hours another MP quits or announces they won't be standing again. Cummings will be delighted by this, mind, his project is every bit as much about "cleansing" the Tory Party of any moderating influences so that it can be reinvented as a hard right English Nationalist Party (in or out of govt) as it is about Brexit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, September 6, 2019, 15:54:14
One of the key differences between Trump and Johnson is that at least some of his own party do have the balls to stand up to him, unlike the craven display of 99% of US Republican politicians who know it's a shitshow but cling on to his populist/white nationalist coat-tails nonetheless. And even among those not prepared to speak out, the queue for the exit door in the Tory Party is growing by the day, seems to be every few hours another MP quits or announces they won't be standing again. Cummings will be delighted by this, mind, his project is every bit as much about "cleansing" the Tory Party of any moderating influences so that it can be reinvented as a hard right English Nationalist Party (in or out of govt) as it is about Brexit
Take your point re Tories visibly standing up to Boris, but a lot of republicans very visibly disowned Trump before the election as well and if anything that seemed to help him ("look even the republican politicians are afraid of my message, that proves I'm right").

I fear, however, that you are spot on about Cummings.  Particularly the "in or out" bit.  Not saying that a Corbyn government is the Machiavellian master plan, but probably seen as a viable alternative scenario, a kind of "heads we win, tails we win in the longer term".  And if the little people get screwed either way, well that will teach them not to be little people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 6, 2019, 16:08:38
Take your point re Tories visibly standing up to Boris, but a lot of republicans very visibly disowned Trump before the election as well and if anything that seemed to help him ("look even the republican politicians are afraid of my message, that proves I'm right").
Yes, I wasn't suggesting it would stop him, but suspect it may lead to a hollowing out of the current Tory Party leaving a rump hard right English Nationalist party, which may still keep the name (only) "Conservative", with the moderates splintering off into a new centre right party, if there are enough of them, rather than following the current trickle of defections to the Lib Dems. The rump English Nationalists then join up/merge with Farage's loons and oddballs to launch an out and out Trump style ethno-nationalist grouping. Who either win the next election or spend their time nursing the grievances of the "Brexit betrayed", increasingly divisive rhetoric, usual scapegoats etc to build a base for next time. As you say:

I fear, however, that you are spot on about Cummings.  Particularly the "in or out" bit.  Not saying that a Corbyn government is the Machiavellian master plan, but probably seen as a viable alternative scenario, a kind of "heads we win, tails we win in the longer term".  And if the little people get screwed either way, well that will teach them not to be little people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, September 6, 2019, 18:03:34
Sorry, but I disagree. Can't stand Thatcher but she never stooped to the depths of Blair. Prior to Blair, politicians were shifty, omitted stuff they should have been up front about, ducked questions, tried to put a better spin on things etc. But Blair and Campbell didn't bother with any of that, they went out and out to deliberately lie to take the country into an illegal war and made the art of government entirely about presentation, not what was best for the people and the country. They set the tone that leads directly to now, where we have a PM who can simply disregard the question of truth and lies or the known facts as simply irrelevant.
Bit late to join in, I know.  Broadly agree about Bliar being a worse liar than the odious Thatcher.

The distinction I would make as against Johnson and Trump is that Bliar at least made quite stringent efforts to conceal his lying and persuaded, if not convinced, a proportion of reasonably neutral persons to give him the benefit of the doubt.

These days you get Littlejohn in the Daily Fail openly cheering on Bojo's lies.  Win the support of your base, with shameful populism, and a percentage will just cheer your lies to the rafters.  No one (from your base) cares.  Ugly and troubling.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, September 6, 2019, 18:25:42
Our constitution, still in some ways adapting and working imo, is in other ways failing us.

As a Remainer and by dint of discomfort with both Tory and Labour, I do have a party that loosely reflects my political leanings.  

Others such as Labour Leavers and Tory remainers (and now One Nation Tories in favour of Business/not needlessly crashing out) do not have such a conduit to represent them.  

The BP lot have a private limited company.  Least said the better but I do at least get the feeling of their supporters being unrepresented.

The One Nation Tories (as Change UK showed) have nowhere to go (especially if they lack any Liberal sentiments) under FPTP.

A sensible system of Proportional Representation would allow many voices to be heard even if I fear it would take a while for political parties to get used to making coalitions work.

Glass half empty, I expect that some arm wrestle will see an eventual Labour or Conservative triumph, of sorts, and that we will just muddle on.  But following a very polarised and not especially representative Trumpian model.  If the New Tories triumph then we will also face an Americanised future with lower taxes and less European-style safety net/health care.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, September 6, 2019, 20:11:31
I thought Corbyn wanted a general election?  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Friday, September 6, 2019, 21:06:16
I dare say that there are a lot of politicians, from all sides, in that House of Commons who are currently doing things that they don't believe in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, September 6, 2019, 21:29:12
I thought Corbyn wanted a general election?  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

That's very disingenuous of you 4D. It's quite clear why he (and others) are not going for it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, September 7, 2019, 08:25:31
I blame that bastard Pitt the Younger :)

My thoughts yesterday turned to Robert Walpole, as he was reckoned to be the first PM and noted for his tactical use of language.

More so today as Walpole got 6 months in the Tower, for corruption and came to be considered a political martyr.  IDS is backing Johnson for this role by breaking the law set by Parliament.  Bring it on in say, and stick IDS there too for aiding and abetting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, September 7, 2019, 14:31:11
More so today as Walpole got 6 months in the Tower, for corruption and came to be considered a political martyr.  IDS is backing Johnson for this role by breaking the law set by Parliament.  Bring it on in say, and stick IDS there too for aiding and abetting.
Wouldn't hold your breath. I'm still waiting for him to lie in front of those bulldozers. Instead he flew abroad to dodge the vote on Heathrow and he has the temerity to call Corbyn a chicken. Here's a question - is Johnson a bigger coward or a liar?


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, September 7, 2019, 20:33:54
Amber Rudd quits as minister and the Tory whip


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, September 7, 2019, 20:47:13
As the fine Terry Pratchett said, ¨We live in interesting times.¨


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, September 7, 2019, 21:07:41
Wouldn't hold your breath. I'm still waiting for him to lie in front of those bulldozers.

He's lied in front of just about everything else.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Sunday, September 8, 2019, 06:14:36
Wouldn't hold your breath. I'm still waiting for him to lie in front of those bulldozers. Instead he flew abroad to dodge the vote on Heathrow and he has the temerity to call Corbyn a chicken. Here's a question - is Johnson a bigger coward or a liar?

Here you go

(https://d1hu4133i4rt3z.cloudfront.net/attachments/759/759234-634ce3799aa8ffbddc46578cb9408266.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, September 8, 2019, 06:20:22
He's lied in front of just about everything else.
:D Amber Rudd's proper done his legs hasn't she? Calls him out as a liar on the sham of Brexit negotiations (Cummings' description, not mine) and describes the purge of MPs as "an assault on democracy and decency". Speaking of which I see Nigel's shock troops were busy in Parliament Square exercising their democratic right to throw metal barriers at the police who had the temerity to try to stop them democratically attacking an anti-No Deal march in the name of free speech. Anyone know where local bookshop attacker Martin Costello was yesterday afternoon, sounds right up his street?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 10, 2019, 09:25:44
Not being a classical scholar I had kind of missed the barbed nature of Varadkar's comments.

(https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/l/t1.0-9/70031568_2700539243338464_2172635174053871616_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_oc=AQnbu3InGH7ws-NDvU_JRJNUIJO9Q-RfxQyz_R44nnniVsACO_jzC7MBupPPK-OZwAY&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-1.fna&oh=bc72a35978d758985213e30daea7d462&oe=5DFDAC1F)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, September 10, 2019, 09:34:50
I looked it up because I didn't get the reference either. But you can tell by Boris' reaction he gets it instantly. Bet Leo creamed his pants when he thought of that one :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, September 10, 2019, 14:20:09
I looked it up because I didn't get the reference either. But you can tell by Boris' reaction he gets it instantly. Bet Leo creamed his pants when he thought of that one :D

Best bit of schooling to be seen in modern times. Using the Greek classics to make the oik squirm. Fantastic!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 09:59:02
So the Scottish Appeal Court have overturned an earlier ruling that prorogation was lawful and ruled that it wasn't. Does this mean that just the Scottish MPs have to come back to parliament and we now have an SNP govt? :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 10:12:32
So the Scottish Appeal Court have overturned an earlier ruling that prorogation was lawful and ruled that it wasn't. Does this mean that just the Scottish MPs have to come back to parliament and we now have an SNP govt? :)

Presumably what once used to be The Conservative and Unionist Party, but is now effectivly the English National Party will ignore it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 10:20:10
Presumably what once used to be The Conservative and Unionist Party, but is now effectivly the English National Party will ignore it
tbf, I wasn't being entirely serious. There are multiple cases working their way through the English, Irish and Scottish courts and the Supreme Court has set aside time to hear a unified case of all of them when they make their way there (assuming they do) in about a week or so


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 10:22:02
Goes to the UK high court on Tuesday


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 10:27:19
Goes to the UK high court on Tuesday
Supremes on Tuesday according to the Graun
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/11/scottish-judges-rule-boris-johnsons-prorogation-unlawful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_y6nFjoVp4


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 10:44:57
Yeah sorry, Supreme Court


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 11:26:39
Yeah sorry, Supreme Court
I knew what you meant, I just wanted to post the YouTube clip :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 11:52:42
This is interesting: thread from a constitutional expert on the impact of the Scottish court case.

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1171730033750228993

TLDR: Scots law different from rest of UK, so case unlikely to succeed in Supremes;
The court found that Boris Johnson lied to the Queen to get prorogation, the first time a court has ever found that a PM lied to the monarch. In words of the constitutional expert, "Wow. Just Wow".

Isn't that treason?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 11:57:48
Fair play to Robert Buckland though, standing up to the Brexit loonies claiming the Scottish court is bent/traitors/ etc etc:

https://twitter.com/RobertBuckland/status/1171743709148454913

Although if he did have any genuine respect for the law, or indeed truth, he'd have told Johnson where he could stick his fancy robes


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 13:10:04
Fair play to Robert Buckland though, standing up to the Brexit loonies claiming the Scottish court is bent/traitors/ etc etc:

https://twitter.com/RobertBuckland/status/1171743709148454913

Although if he did have any genuine respect for the law, or indeed truth, he'd have told Johnson where he could stick his fancy robes

Apparently after Rudd went, there was some speculation that Buckland might have had a change of heart, he apparently had a meeting with Johnson, in which he claims he reminded  him of the need to stick to the law


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 13:11:48
Apparently after Rudd went, there was some speculation that Buckland might have had a change of heart, he apparently had a meeting with Johnson, in which he claims he reminded  him of the need to stick to the law
And Johnson promised of course he would, a pronouncement worth as much as any of his other promises, and so gave Buckland a sticking plaster for his conscience. Nonetheless, some minor credit for twice now in the last week or so publicly reminding the govt and it's more rabid supporters that actually they DO have to obey the law.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 13:18:12
At least we now know what will b on the front of the Mail and Express in the morning....

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70609408_2423009874463906_248128932228890624_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQmdt0erOxpTSwwAMTyo64EGA1jSdBG8ZWLfUAw0KYJer3OLgek-u5d58zc1v1uUiKE&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=a4b60f142a5d95b324e95c11ff9a84cc&oe=5E0D5430)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 13:19:35
Interesting reporting from Peston...

Has any member of cabinet seen the full legal advice given to the prime minister which persuaded Johnson proroguing or suspending parliament is lawful? Julian Smith asked for it, on the day cabinet was bounced into agreeing prorogation. Amber Rudd asked for it subsequently, am not aware that either got it. Instead they received a “trust me” from Johnson This could be a problem for him and ministers because the ministerial code, amended after Chilcott enquiry into the legality of going to war in Iraq, says that all ministers have right to see FULL legal advice - not just summaries - on all contentious issues. Will Cabinet now get the advice after today’s Court of Session judgement? For their own self-preservation perhaps they should see it, and have that deferred (ahem) robust cabinet debate on whether closing parliament is appropriate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 13:44:41
Fair play to Robert Buckland though, standing up to the Brexit loonies claiming the Scottish court is bent/traitors/ etc etc:

https://twitter.com/RobertBuckland/status/1171743709148454913

Although if he did have any genuine respect for the law, or indeed truth, he'd have told Johnson where he could stick his fancy robes

Buckland might come to regret speaking out, remember the silence of the LC when Dacre went after the judges previously, Johnson rewarded her with a cabinet place!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 14:32:53
remember the silence of the LC when Dacre went after the judges previously, Johnson rewarded her with a cabinet place!
Didn't see that one, was Jodie Foster in it? With Dacre as the psychopath?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 15:36:43
I'm not sure that this is as much of an issue for Boris as has been made out by the twitter poster.  It seems to be more a case of what he wants to believe should happen rather than what will actually happen.

Not pretending to be a legal expert but my understanding is that the proroguing is legal, albeit far longer than normal, and that the supreme court will uphold that view.   Particularly as they are usually loathe to interfere in the running of the country.

Yes, we all 'know' that this is being done for entirely the wrong reasons and for reasons that are appalling and in complete contradiction to the intent behind proroguing.  But that makes Johnson a disgrace, not the action illegal.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 15:39:12
I'm not sure that this is as much of an issue for Boris as has been made out by the twitter poster.  It seems to be more a case of what he wants to believe should happen rather than what will actually happen.

Not pretending to be a legal expert but my understanding is that the proroguing is legal, albeit far longer than normal, and that the supreme court will uphold that view.   Particularly as they are usually loathe to interfere in the running of the country.

Yes, we all 'know' that this is being done for entirely the wrong reasons and for reasons that are appalling and in complete contradiction to the intent behind proroguing.  But that makes Johnson a disgrace, not the action illegal.


I think that's exactly what he said. But I thought the fact that he drew attention to the court's finding that Johnson lied to the Queen was noteworthy. I'm hoping it's Tower-able :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 16:04:35
I'm hoping it's Tower-able :)

It isn't.

The Chief Gaoler of the Tower has already been consulted on this very matter and has confirmed that although they are happy to take traitors, mass murderers and megalomaniacs they have to draw the line somewhere.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 16:26:52
It isn't.

The Chief Gaoler of the Tower has already been consulted on this very matter and has confirmed that although they are happy to take traitors, mass murderers and megalomaniacs they have to draw the line somewhere.
Well Johnson fits two of those categories, not sure about mass murder though, but give him time


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: bathford on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 18:04:04
Surely, The Queen would have sought legal advise before agreeing to anything. She can't be that daft?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 18:43:51
Surely, The Queen would have sought legal advise before agreeing to anything. She can't be that daft?
That's not really the way it works. The Queen is pretty much obliged to accept the advice of her ministers, she doesn't have a decision to make, the decision is made by the PM, it's just a formality that the Queen enacts it. In this instance, her ministers are her legal/constitutional advisers


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 18:51:56
Not only that, but she would have had no way of knowing at the time that Boris was lying.

I mean, OK, it's Boris so she probably knew really, but she would have had no evidence... asides from it being Boris that is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: bathford on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 19:14:20
But surely, if she had any doubts she could have refused. OK, it's an unusual thing to do. But what isn't at the moment


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 19:19:20
But surely, if she had any doubts she could have refused.
No she couldn't. That's the whole point of a constitutional monarchy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 19:39:26
Yellowhammer's been published, with some redactions:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/831199/20190802_Latest_Yellowhammer_Planning_assumptions_CDL.pdf

TLDR: the govt think there will be an affect on food supply with shortages of some fresh foods
There will be disruption to the fuel supply, esp in SE and London
There will be significant disruption to some medical supplies, esp those the govt is unable to stockpile.
There will be public disorder

This is the govt's view of the impact of a No Deal Brexit, remember. It's not pretty and our govt is voluntarily and deliberately choosing to do this to us.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 19:40:31
AND those are the parts they are prepared to tell us about.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 19:41:08
Fortunately, it looks like Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Farage will be OK:

"Low income groups will be disproportionately affected by any price rises in food and fuel"

Bearing in mind an earlier para expects the cost of gas and electricity to rise "significantly". At the start of winter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 19:46:19
AND those are the parts they are prepared to tell us about.
Paragraph 15, which comes immediately after the para about major disruption to the fuel supply in SE and London, has been redacted entirely. Worrying. My guess is that's the bit about the dead rising from their graves


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 19:48:22
Project fear  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 19:49:34
fuel supply issues. great. It was like Mad Max when the tanker blockades happened


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 19:51:36
Project fear  ;)
On the upside, they're hopeful it won't affect the water supply. Although they may have to take urgent action if there's a disruption to the supply chain for chemicals etc. Like those two and a half day queues at Dover, for example?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 21:16:54
My old consultant from the renal unit in Sussex is terrified. All the filters from dialysis machines come from Germany


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 23:06:52
Without overreacting, I'm seriously thinking of abandoning the no longer good ship HMS FUCKED (Former United Countries of Kingdom: European Dissolved). I can already hear the 17.4m giving me an endorsing send off from blighty.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, 23:13:19
Without overreacting
... is pretty much the same guarantee you're about to do the thing you're disavowing as "I'm not racist but ...." :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 01:23:47
... is pretty much the same guarantee you're about to do the thing you're disavowing as "I'm not racist but ...." :)

Indeed. Have to lay some bait though  :soapy tit wank:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 07:54:48
fuel supply issues. great. It was like Mad Max when the tanker blockades happened

It will be fine, I am sure you are old enough to remember how calm and considered people were in 2000 when the fuel shortages happened for a few days.

Its not as if we live in a country where people call the police when KFC run out of chicken.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 08:00:01
It will be fine, I am sure you are old enough to remember how calm and considered people were in 2000 when the fuel shortages happened for a few days.

Its not as if we live in a country where people call the police when KFC run out of chicken.

Well quite.

Wait, there'd better not be KFC shortages. My god, the humanity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 08:00:20
On the upside, they're hopeful it won't affect the water supply. Although they may have to take urgent action if there's a disruption to the supply chain for chemicals etc. Like those two and a half day queues at Dover, for example?

Any water issues will be regional, only affecting hundreds of thousands of people!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 08:12:24
Interesting to see that Johnson is noted as having lied to the Queen and Yellowhammer shows we may be short of food and fuel, yet not a dicky bird regarding the matter on the front of the Mail, Express, Sun or Telegraph.

Its hardly surprising that anyone who does not read widely may be a little ill informed if they base their understanding on these mainstream propaganda sheets.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 08:39:35
Interesting to see that Johnson is noted as having lied to the Queen and Yellowhammer shows we may be short of food and fuel, yet not a dicky bird regarding the matter on the front of the Mail, Express, Sun or Telegraph.


A cynic might think they have an agenda to push.

Surely that can't be the case?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 09:02:06
Interesting to see that Johnson is noted as having lied to the Queen and Yellowhammer shows we may be short of food and fuel, yet not a dicky bird regarding the matter on the front of the Mail, Express, Sun or Telegraph.
On a side-note, it's sad that those four are now a natural grouping. The Telegraph always used to be a decent paper, with a clear right-wing slant of course, but still committed to actually reporting the news. Over the past 5 years (maybe longer?) though, it's become less and less committed to journalism as the rant content has escalated. Like the Mail with slightly longer words and a more upmarket style section


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 09:16:01
Interesting they have chosen to call the report Yellowhammer when one considers the little rhyme kids are taught to remember the Yellowhammer bird song...... Perhaps there is a twitcher with a sense or humour in government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 09:17:08
On a side-note, it's sad that those four are now a natural grouping. The Telegraph always used to be a decent paper, with a clear right-wing slant of course, but still committed to actually reporting the news. Over the past 5 years (maybe longer?) though, it's become less and less committed to journalism as the rant content has escalated. Like the Mail with slightly longer words and a more upmarket style section

Hardly surprising, the Barclay brothers have more to lose than most if we don't leave the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 09:50:12
I've only just had a proper look at May's resignation honours for the first time. Disgusted to see that Stephen Parkinson was in there. He's the man that publicly outed the whistleblower Shahmir Sanni as gay, after Sanni had told the Observer how Vote Leave channelled money through BeLeave, a group linked to Cambridge Analytica, to get around electoral law.

Sanni had had a relationship with Parkinson, one of May’s closest advisers and a former Vote Leave official, but had not come out as gay. How low can you get?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/26/being-outed-by-downing-street-is-breathtakingly-wrong


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 09:59:19
I've only just had a proper look at May's resignation honours for the first time. Disgusted to see that Stephen Parkinson was in there. He's the man that publicly outed the whistleblower Shahmir Sanni as gay, after Sanni had told the Observer how Vote Leave channelled money through BeLeave, a group linked to Cambridge Analytica, to get around electoral law.

Sanni had had a relationship with Parkinson, one of May’s closest advisers and a former Vote Leave official, but had not come out as gay. How low can you get?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/26/being-outed-by-downing-street-is-breathtakingly-wrong

Normal rules have ceased to exist, hence a woman whose attempt at a lasting legacy (apart from the Brexit shitshow she left us with) was a bill to address domestic violence, then knighted Boycott a bloke convicted of domestic violence.

You really couldn't make this stuff up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 10:37:04
Possibly explains why Johnson is looking so haunted at the moment, there are big stakes running on all this....

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/11/brexit-disaster-capitalism-8-billion-bet-on-no-deal-crash-out-by-boris-johnsons-leave-backers/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 10:45:05
I've only just had a proper look at May's resignation honours for the first time. Disgusted to see that Stephen Parkinson was in there. He's the man that publicly outed the whistleblower Shahmir Sanni as gay, after Sanni had told the Observer how Vote Leave channelled money through BeLeave, a group linked to Cambridge Analytica, to get around electoral law.

Sanni had had a relationship with Parkinson, one of May’s closest advisers and a former Vote Leave official, but had not come out as gay. How low can you get?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/26/being-outed-by-downing-street-is-breathtakingly-wrong
I'd say it degrades the honours system, but that ship sailed years ago. Still shows appalling judgement by May though (again, add it to the list!)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 10:45:49
Normal rules have ceased to exist, hence a woman whose attempt at a lasting legacy (apart from the Brexit shitshow she left us with) was a bill to address domestic violence
Which has been left in limbo by parliament being prorogued


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 12:13:16
BBC headline - "Johnson denies lying to Queen over Parliament suspension"

Is he telling the truth about not lying? He could be playing the double negative card whereby 2 lies cancel each other out and it all becomes true.
 :suicide:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 12:16:26
Quote
He added: "The High Court in England plainly agrees with us

They didn't say they agree with him, though, did they? I thought they just said that it's not something they should be getting involved in.

Is this Boris missing the point, or yet another lie? (Or I have missed something)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 12:49:12
They didn't say they agree with him, though, did they? I thought they just said that it's not something they should be getting involved in.

Is this Boris missing the point, or yet another lie? (Or I have missed something)
He fully understands the point he is (yet again) taking a leaf from Trump's playbook - "Mueller completely exonerated me" (No he didn't, he said he didn't have the power to lay charges but made it clear that charges would be merited) "The High Court agrees with us" (No they don't, they just don't think it's within their jurisdiction).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 12:51:56
And you can guarantee that most will not get the nuance (or completely ignore it).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 12:54:58
"The High Court agrees with us" (No they don't, they just don't think it's within their jurisdiction).

And you can guarantee that most will not get the nuance (or completely ignore it).

I imagine this version will be splashed all over the front of the right wing propaganda sheets tomorrow AM....



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 13:09:39
They didn't say they agree with him, though, did they? I thought they just said that it's not something they should be getting involved in.

Is this Boris missing the point, or yet another lie? (Or I have missed something)

Isn't this all irrelevant anyway...... we all know that all our laws are set in Brussels anyway.

This is quite an interesting listen... https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/legal-expert-david-allen-green-prorogation/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 13:49:24
I've only just had a proper look at May's resignation honours for the first time. Disgusted to see that Stephen Parkinson was in there. He's the man that publicly outed the whistleblower Shahmir Sanni as gay, after Sanni had told the Observer how Vote Leave channelled money through BeLeave, a group linked to Cambridge Analytica, to get around electoral law.

Sanni had had a relationship with Parkinson, one of May’s closest advisers and a former Vote Leave official, but had not come out as gay. How low can you get?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/26/being-outed-by-downing-street-is-breathtakingly-wrong

Another one that seems iffy is the labour mp who voted 3 times for May's deal and now gets a peerage from her.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 13:54:10
"The High Court agrees with us" (No they don't, they just don't think it's within their jurisdiction).

Equally by the same token they haven't pronounced whether they disagree with him.

Most people are taking what they want from all of this, not just The Daily Mail


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 14:10:20
Equally by the same token they haven't pronounced whether they disagree with him.


Which is not the point. Boris is saying the courts have said something that they have not said.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 14:23:10
Which is not the point. Boris is saying the courts have said something that they have not said.

My point is that people are implying that the only thing that is stopping the courts from disagreeing with Boris is their reluctance to interfere.  That is as speculative as the assertion from Boris that they agree with him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 14:25:03
Yellowhammer is rather disappointing, not so much in what it says as what it doesn’t say.  Not referring to the redactions but rather that it gives no indication as to what they actually expect WILL happen.
 
What is the delta between “reasonable worst case” and “reasonable expected case”?   If it is significant and effective mitigation steps to move us from worst case to reality are being put in place then great.

But what if that delta is actually negligible?  The government are strongly pushing the “that’s just the worst case, we’re taking steps to avoid it” line which has logic to it, but equally it’s reasonable to assume that this government would happily push a line that sounds good but they already know won’t happen.  Yellowhammer should be telling us.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 14:43:36
My point is that people are implying that the only thing that is stopping the courts from disagreeing with Boris is their reluctance to interfere.  That is as speculative as the assertion from Boris that they agree with him.
No-one here is implying that. I was saying he was pulling essentially the same trick as Trump did: claiming a "not in my/our remit" as a vindication. Which it isn't.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 14:49:01
Yellowhammer is rather disappointing, not so much in what it says as what it doesn’t say.  Not referring to the redactions but rather that it gives no indication as to what they actually expect WILL happen.
 
What is the delta between “reasonable worst case” and “reasonable expected case”?   If it is significant and effective mitigation steps to move us from worst case to reality are being put in place then great.

But what if that delta is actually negligible?  The government are strongly pushing the “that’s just the worst case, we’re taking steps to avoid it” line which has logic to it, but equally it’s reasonable to assume that this government would happily push a line that sounds good but they already know won’t happen.  Yellowhammer should be telling us.

I think the fact that this "Worst case" document that's just been released is essentially the same as the "Base Case" document that was leaked to the Times (the journalist who wrote the story said the only differences were pretty much the retitling and the redactions) tells you that the delta is non-existent. They're just trying to make it look less scary. Much like they claimed that we didn't need to worry about a No-Deal Brexit because it was "million to one chance" and getting a deal would be "the easiest deal in history". If they're saying this is "Worst Case", my guess is that it's actually more likely middle of the possible scenarios and that things could actually be much much worse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 14:51:38
My point is that people are implying that the only thing that is stopping the courts from disagreeing with Boris is their reluctance to interfere.  That is as speculative as the assertion from Boris that they agree with him.

I really think you've got the wrong end of the stick there. I've implied no such thing and I don't think anybody else has either.

My point is that Boris is lying. Or an idiot. That's is all; I don't pretend to know what the judges are thinking.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 14:52:29
Another one that seems iffy is the labour mp who voted 3 times for May's deal and now gets a peerage from her.

When you say 'iffy', I assume you actually mean 'entirely par for the course'!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 14:56:07
I think the fact that this "Worst case" document that's just been released is essentially the same as the "Base Case" document that was leaked to the Times (the journalist who wrote the story said the only differences were pretty much the retitling and the redactions) tells you that the delta is non-existent. They're just trying to make it look less scary. Much like they claimed that we didn't need to worry about a No-Deal Brexit because it was "million to one chance" and getting a deal would be "the easiest deal in history". If they're saying this is "Worst Case", my guess is that it's actually more likely middle of the possible scenarios and that things could actually be much much worse.

Scottish govt have also now confirmed that the documents are identical (including writing date) to those they received apart from the change to worst case from base case.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 15:31:10
Not a particularly good look..

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/itv-acting-pm-podcast-with-emma-lewell-buck-1-6266361


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 15:47:24
My point is that Boris is lying. Or an idiot.
Here's the crucial evidence that Johnson is telling the truth that will be submitted to the Supreme Court
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EERHebuXUAAM8jW?format=png&name=900x900)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 16:09:40
Anyone worked out what the best case scenario might be?? Or is that just too unpolitical


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 16:13:08
Anyone worked out what the best case scenario might be?? Or is that just too unpolitical
These are govt documents, maybe you could ask HMG what they think the best case scenario is? And why they haven't released that? And why they have relabelled "Base Case" (i.e. likely) as "Worst Case"? Maybe Best Case also isn't that different from Worst Case?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 16:37:34
Anyone worked out what the best case scenario might be??

No brexit?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 17:00:07
Here's the crucial evidence that Johnson is telling the truth that will be submitted to the Supreme Court
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EERHebuXUAAM8jW?format=png&name=900x900)


It appears the main reason they lost in the Scottish court was that they refused/were unable to produce a signed witness statement detailing why the prorogation decision was taken, it is suspected this being due to the fact that no one in government or civil service could be found to sign such a thing and put them self at risk of perjury charges.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, September 12, 2019, 17:11:14
No brexit?

Winner. We can close the TEF now, for today. :pint:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, September 13, 2019, 08:10:13
No-one here is implying that.

Sorry, I've just re-read what I wrote and I see what you mean.  I didn't mean posters here, I meant the media.  The Today programme on Thursday effectively said that the only reason the English courts wouldn't find against BJ was their reluctance to interfere.  They may be right but they can't know that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, September 13, 2019, 08:37:10
I wish posters wouldn’t use the term BJ.

I only get disappointed after having read it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, September 13, 2019, 08:38:37
Not a particularly good look..

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/itv-acting-pm-podcast-with-emma-lewell-buck-1-6266361

She has either been massively quoted out of context or more likely has just won the prize for the most bizarre comment of the week which is saying something in these times.

The really depressing thing, though, is the general underlying tone of the article which is that so many people of different political persuasions agree that this current government needs to go, but no-one seems prepared to compromise or make a personal sacrifice in order to create a coalition to offer to the country as a viable alternative.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 13, 2019, 10:44:25
Dunt's traditional Friday musings

The chatter begins. It always starts quietly at first, then slowly builds up. Maybe there is hope, after all. Maybe a deal with Europe can be done. Maybe Boris Johnson is the man to do it.

Then come the news reports. The prime minister is startled by the implications of no-deal. The DUP are softening on regulatory separation between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. The Europeans are willing to change or erase the backstop.

It's becoming almost a tradition. Expectation builds, slowly and from multiple angles, reaches a crescendo and then finally breaks on the cold, horrible shores of reality.

Reports now suggest the Europeans would accept changes to the backstop. But these would amount to the backstop in all but name: regulatory and customs alignment as an insurance policy against the failure of 'alternative arrangements'.

The suggestions of a DUP shift are also overstated. The maintenance of alignment in the UK is more important to the party than Brexit. The latter is a key policy, the former is a near-Biblical historical commitment. They have arguably been the most consistent of all the Brexit camps since the referendum. Even when many of the ERG hardliners backed Theresa May's deal on the third attempt, they held firm.

Others insist that now Johnson has been blocked from pursuing no-deal, he's really serious about getting one. He would apparently be able to 'sell' it better than his predecessor. But after the events of the last two weeks, even that latter proposition looks dubious. He's not the master salesman he was made out to be.

And then there is the timetable. Even the most positive reports concede that the Europeans have not been shown a viable plan by the UK yet. It's far from clear that Downing Street is capable of constructing that plan. If it somehow could, it wouldn't allow it to emerge before the Conservative party conference, because all hell would break loose. But there's just over a week between the end of the conference and the crucial EU summit where the deal would need to be agreed in mid-October.
Plans for a deal of this complexity and importance can't just be unveiled at a summit. They need time to be discussed, negotiated and agreed. The timing just doesn't work. So even if there was a viable plan in place, you'd still be looking at an extension of Article 50, which takes Johnson past his self-imposed red line.

Coming back to the Commons with a deal - any deal, even one without the backstop - would also sabotage Johnson's electoral prospects. Many in the ERG and the Brexit Party now view any deal as a betrayal, quite apart from whatever the arrangements are on the Irish border.

If he lost the subsequent vote, the swerve back to no-deal would be difficult. He would not be able to regain the image he currently enjoys as someone prepared to embrace the full spiritual mission of Brexit. He'd be turned into May Mark II.

So to even consider this course he'd really need to be confident that he could get it through the Commons. And there's little reason to think he would. He would struggle to get the ERG on board. The DUP are extremely unlikely to vote for it. That means that he needs to find enough pro-deal Labour MPs to make up the numbers.

There had been hints that might be possible. A new group of pro-deal MPs, headed by Stephen Kinnock, are agitating for another crack at May's deal. But, as Chaminda Jayenetti wrote for the site this week, the deal they'd be offered by Johnson would be even worse than what they got under May.
The assurances on staying aligned with worker and environmental rights would be gone. The future relationship document would be amended to rule out customs union or single market membership in future. The fact that the rest of the UK would be able to move away from European standards, leaving Northern Ireland behind, clearly entails a move towards American deregulation in a bid to secure a deal with Donald Trump.

And despite their protestations, the Labour pro-deal contingent have, when it comes down to it, voted against this kind of outcome. People like Lisa Nandy or Caroline Flint, who have pointedly rejected Remain, have almost spotless voting records in blocking Tory Brexit deals. That deal would now be put forward in a less attractive way, by a leader they find more offensive than May. Whichever angle you look at the problem from, the votes are hard to find.

Nothing is impossible and in British politics things now change very quickly. But you would need an optimism close to pathology in order to believe that a deal was in any way likely: the incentives are not there, the ideas are not there and the votes are not there. The rest is just hopeful chatter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, September 13, 2019, 11:09:21
When you step back from it all, it really is quite astonishing how a seemingly stable, seemingly dependable state such as the UK can have spiralled out of control in the space of 3 or 4 short years.  It's quite frightening, actually.  I try to put myself in the shoes of a historian looking at this period in 2070 or 2080.  What will they make of it?

It's likely that they will conclude that early 21st century UK was complacent.  While there were differences of thought, it believed that its fundamentals - its institutions, independence of the judiciary, rule of law etc. - were sound.  But the house, in retrospect, was built on sand.  Parallels with the financial crisis a decade earlier, maybe...not seeing the approaching whirlwind until it was all too late.  A systemic/collective failure to see the approaching storm.  Our constitution, clearly, wasn't up to it.  Our institutions did not know how to react when something as simple as the result of a binary referendum was thrown in to the mix.  Are we a parliamentary democracy, or not?  Which takes precedence - parliament, or a referendum result?  Why did no-one call this out?  Why was no-one talking to David Cameron about this in 2014 & 2015?

Hearing the passion of advocates on both sides of the Brexit debate (leaving aside my own bias/opinion for a moment), I'm quite certain that this is going to fester for decades...and quite possibly, for the rest of my lifetime.  And I'm really quite pessimistic about the future of this place (in what ever form it takes in the years ahead) as a result.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, September 13, 2019, 11:34:53
When you step back from it all, it really is quite astonishing how a seemingly stable, seemingly dependable state such as the UK can have spiralled out of control in the space of 3 or 4 short years.  It's quite frightening, actually.  I try to put myself in the shoes of a historian looking at this period in 2070 or 2080.  What will they make of it?

It's likely that they will conclude that early 21st century UK was complacent. 

Given that the overriding issue is climate change, and that top scientists gave a prognosis a while back of 12 years before it becomes irreversible, it's questionable what if anything might be around in 2080.

It is against this background that history will judge.... fiddling while Rome burned.  The complacency is why at a time Coirbyn has got Parliament to declare a climate emergency, they're not talking about what's to be done, rather than being prorogued.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, September 13, 2019, 11:48:37
She has either been massively quoted out of context or more likely has just won the prize for the most bizarre comment of the week which is saying something in these times.

The really depressing thing, though, is the general underlying tone of the article which is that so many people of different political persuasions agree that this current government needs to go, but no-one seems prepared to compromise or make a personal sacrifice in order to create a coalition to offer to the country as a viable alternative.


Emma Lewd-Fcuk is Labour MP for South Shields.  That explains her views.  imo.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 13, 2019, 12:24:39
Emma Lewd-Fcuk is Labour MP for South Shields.  That explains her views.  imo.

Not 100% sure you can blame South Shields for this, she is an incredibly objectionable MP who seems to spend most of her time falling out with her constituents and the local media.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, September 13, 2019, 14:07:55
Happy to take on board your qualification as you doubtless know more about her.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 13, 2019, 14:56:40
Happy to take on board your qualification as you doubtless know more about her.

To be honest I know little about her, however I have a mate who lives in her constituency so just asked him!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, September 14, 2019, 10:54:04
  Here's some Lib Dem stuff on climate change.... at least it's something.

  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/14/lib-dems-set-out-radical-agenda-for-tackling-climate-emergency


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, September 14, 2019, 14:56:37
  Here's some Lib Dem stuff on climate change.... at least it's something.

  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/14/lib-dems-set-out-radical-agenda-for-tackling-climate-emergency

Could this mean a step nearer towards a Green-Lib "Unite to Remain" type of alliance, as has been banded around several times.

The impending, inevitable GE at some point will certainly be an interesting time!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Saturday, September 14, 2019, 16:13:31
Could this mean a step nearer towards a Green-Lib "Unite to Remain" type of alliance, as has been banded around several times.

The impending, inevitable GE at some point will certainly be an interesting time!

Oh how very democratic!

I voted remain but the result must be implemented. If it was reversed beforehand by another vote that wouldn’t be accepted either and rightly so


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, September 14, 2019, 16:57:28
wouldn't be acceptable to you. fine by me.

A party unilaterally revoking article 50 is wrong though. But a lib dem/green alliance won't get anywhere near power


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, September 14, 2019, 18:38:49
I voted remain but the result must be implemented. If it was reversed beforehand by another vote that wouldn’t be accepted either and rightly so
That's funny because immediately after the result was in you said you thought it was the right decision :hmmm:
The people have spoken we all need to move on.

We need the best politicians with the highest economic competence and the best lawyers/negotiators to steer us through.

I do believe the decision made by the electorate is the right one, but we all need to pull together now however people may have voted. These farcical calls for a 2nd vote are an embarrassment as are these ridiculous petitions


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, September 14, 2019, 19:00:18
That's funny because immediately after the result was in you said you thought it was the right decision :hmmm:

Ha. i write some dross on here at times but that is some proper "pants down" stuff. I'll drink to that!  :pint:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Sunday, September 15, 2019, 12:36:53
I've kept a low profile on this thread recently as I voted remain but believe we should implement the referendum result democratically.

However without a written constitution I believe that the impartiality of the speaker is the single most important element of our parliamentary democracy. The bias of Mr Bercow is obvious and has critical implications not just for Brexit but for our democracy going forward


When the majority of mp's disagree with the electorate/governing party in the future they will be able to use this as precedent and "take over parliament " and frustrate the will of the people.

Is our political system dead or just in it's death throes? God help us if magic grandpa gets the keys to number ten@



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Sunday, September 15, 2019, 13:02:32
….especially if Magic Grandpa were to lie about his motives to the Queen and accordingly have her use her prerogative powers to prorogue Parliament.

And then were Magic Grandpa to refuse to commit to obeying any laws passed by Parliament before prorogation.  

That would be really worrying.   :eek:  Although logically acceptable to Johnson's fanbois.

PS  Rob, to the extent Bercow's actions may be more than just biased in favour of Parliament but actually biased in favour of his political views, then I would, tbf, also share your concerns there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, September 15, 2019, 13:52:07
I've kept a low profile on this thread recently as I voted remain but believe we should implement the referendum result democratically.

Your low profile is probably due to previously saying you voted leave and then remain, in order to suit whatever crap you're coming up with.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Sunday, September 15, 2019, 17:47:17
Hi Reg it's taken some time for you to reply to me directly but here you are! I did mispost on one occasion but did correct it as soon as the error was pointed out to me. I did vote remain. You have chosen to call me an inveterate liar when you do not know me or anything about me. You made no comment about our biased speaker who has done more to destroy our parliamentary democracy, a system that he purports to want to defend than any speaker before him.
I suspect we are of a similar age and have both lived in the Swindon area for many years. I'm afraid that's were the similarity ends, I have an open mind and will consider other peoples points of view you have a closed mind and come across as a resentful bigot.
My family roots are entirely "working  class" but my parents encouraged me to use every opportunity to make as good a life as I could. Presumably using the politics of envy you would villify me as a stuck up baby boomer. However I don't care!
I met Boris in Portsmouth the other day and he came across as an open intelligent man. Can the same be said for magic grandpa who only speaks what is written down for him by his moderate advisor Seamus Milne ( even at shadow cabinate meetings according to Angela Eagle)
Don't even get me started on his alleged support for terrorist organisations. I do hope if Corbyn gets into power he makes re-distributing your wealth Reg as his top priority. Oh and by the way I went to Park Grammar and it certainly wasn't posh as you inferred  some time ago! All the best from the sunny south coast.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, September 15, 2019, 18:57:52
Boris will have to do more than waffle a bit of Latin to convince me he's more than mediocre in the brain department.

I honestly think Corbyn for 4 years is preferable to the damage Boris and the Tories will do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Sunday, September 15, 2019, 19:38:38
Not a big fan of either of them


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Sunday, September 15, 2019, 20:10:01
I agree that the situation brought to a head by Brexit has proved what we always suspected and laid bare the contempt that the establishment has for the great unwashed. I make no distinction between left right and centre, they are all equally as dirty. I do think that democracy as we know it through the mother of parliament is dead.
Politically I am old enough to know what reality was like when trades unions had too much power. Ask an ex British Leyland/Pressed Steel Swindon worker to tell a few stories about Red Robbo. The Labour Party as we knew it no longer exists it's been taken over by militant Marxists. I accept those with different/beliefs to me are perfectly entitled to create a party and try for power but not by stealth. The takeover of the labour party looks to me like the sad story of ARC Wimbledon and the MK shysters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Sunday, September 15, 2019, 20:13:02
AFC Wimbledon stupid dogbot!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Sunday, September 15, 2019, 20:15:35
What's a "hidden user" on this site?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, September 15, 2019, 20:30:01
What's a "hidden user" on this site?

Me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Sunday, September 15, 2019, 20:36:01
Brexit was sold, inter alia, on the basis that we would be taking back control. Once we have assumed control, what benefits can I, and the great unwashed, expect to enjoy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 16, 2019, 08:06:26
It looks like the sudden surge of right wingers claiming to have voted remain but now demanding we leave has reached here, it has been noticeably prevalent on Facebook for a week or so now.

I had assumed that it was down to the targeted ads starting to influence people again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Monday, September 16, 2019, 13:13:15
Fcuk me Horlock07 you've really pissed me off now. Targeted ads FFS I'm so old I use an abacus to add up. Why must you believe I am lying when several times on this site I have categorically stated I voted remain in the referendum? I voted that way because my children rely on membership of the EU for their job success. On reflection I see the move towards a united states of Europe as more dangerous.
What are your thoughts of the undemocratic illiberal party's decision not to bother asking the electorate to review the original decision but to unilaterally revoke article 50? Their new ex labour/conservative/Soubry nutter mp's might have choked on their porridge this morning!
Leaving the EU gives the UK a chance to move forward, replace the House of Lords and for the ELECTORATE to force change on the establishment and create a written constitution  in order to limit the misuse of power by the squeaker. Not misspelling!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, September 16, 2019, 14:16:00
Admins, can we change Gosport Rob's name to Grospot Bore? It's an anagram (almost).

Grospot Bore wrote:
Quote
What are your thoughts of the undemocratic illiberal party's decision not to bother asking the electorate to review the original decision but to unilaterally revoke article 50?

I personally love it. They won't win a GE on the back of it but at least they can say they stuck their neck out and actually stood for something, that they pretty much have consistently harped on about. To remain as an EU member. Especially amongst the blathering fucking albino imposter for a PM and an opposition as strong as 30 loo rolls for a quid.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, September 16, 2019, 14:27:17
What are your thoughts of the undemocratic illiberal party's decision not to bother asking the electorate to review the original decision but to unilaterally revoke article 50?
Well they will be asking the electorate won't they? They won't get to enact the policy unless they win a General Election which they will fight with this policy in their manifesto. So people who don't want to revoke Article 50 won't vote for them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Monday, September 16, 2019, 14:30:17
Ouch! Bit harsh bamboo......
Presumably anyone who may not have the same views as you is boring?
Presumably if the lib dems believe a vote should be revoked if they don't agree with it they won't mind if others demand that their mp's must be recalled and face a fresh vote as more of their constituency voted for other parties. I think not.
I still don't understand why you need hidden user status.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, September 16, 2019, 14:48:55
Ouch! Bit harsh bamboo......
Presumably anyone who may not have the same views as you is boring?
Presumably if the lib dems believe a vote should be revoked if they don't agree with it they won't mind if others demand that their mp's must be recalled and face a fresh vote as more of their constituency voted for other parties. I think not.
I still don't understand why you need hidden user status.

Harsh but true ;)

No, Reg and I have similar view on some things but I can find him tedious and boring. I'm sure there are many on here who likewise find me in that bracket too. OR even they just think I'm a cunt (in the most endearing way of course).

Well essentially that's kind of how a GE works to a degree. Everyone who is a current MP stands, along with MP hopefuls. If they aren't voted for, their standing as an MP is "revoked" and given to someone else...I'm sure I don't have to explain that to you.

I don't understand why it bothers you. Has the "green dot" of social media fame got to you? I mean I appreciate that you care about when I'm online but considering you don't even know me, it is a little Ted Bundy. Maybe Grospot Ted would be a more suitable moniker?

*I've had a sloww Monday, the feather ruffling is in full force.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, September 16, 2019, 14:56:05
I still don't understand why you need hidden user status.

bamboo is a good lad, but it normally takes him so long to write a post that it's better to remain hidden than give the impression of being logged into the TEF permanently. ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Monday, September 16, 2019, 15:01:49
The process of election/voting is generally as you define bamboonoshop but there is a major difference in what the lib dems are proposing. Their approach would be if they didn't like the result in a specific election location ie another party won they would declare the result null and void and their party would be declared winners.

The hidden user club seems a bit selective to this right wing outsider hence my request for information.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, September 16, 2019, 15:41:00
I see Johnson's sterling work in boosting Britain's status on the world stage continues - humiliated by Luxembourg.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, September 16, 2019, 16:28:11
bamboo is a good lad, but it normally takes him so long to write a post that it's better to remain hidden than give the impression of being logged into the TEF permanently. ;)

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: Yes!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, September 16, 2019, 17:34:08
Their approach would be if they didn't like the result in a specific election location ie another party won they would declare the result null and void and their party would be declared winners.

The hidden user club seems a bit selective to this right wing outsider hence my request for information.

I think if the whole process had actually been spent, in the last 3 years, on putting together a plausible and comprehensive deal then there would less likely be these kinds of other proposals/mandates/manifesto appearing. Again though, at least they are standing by something and being decisive. Which says a lot compared with the bumbling "top two".

The "Hidden User" function is open for anyone to use. If you're really bothered about being left out then you'll be even more put out when you realise there is "The Lounge", which IS a more selective element to access here  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Monday, September 16, 2019, 18:42:39
Thanks for sharing your wisdom bamboonoshop. Perhaps as this function is open to all you could post the process step by st for me?
Didn't know "the lounge" existed and don't know what it means. Again perhaps you can enlighten me?
Ps. On the hidden user thread Flasheart says it was his intervention/mistake that created hidden users don't know where that fits in with your theory.
The sinister reason more progress has not been made towards a deal over three years is remainacs saying " we accept /respect the result of the referendum but........ " The tactic has then been to undermine the UK position whilst using every means both in parliament and the courts to frustrate leaving the EU.6


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, September 16, 2019, 19:06:49

Ps. On the hidden user thread Flasheart says it was his intervention/mistake that created hidden users

I meant on my own profile, not in general.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Monday, September 16, 2019, 19:20:26
I personally love it. They won't win a GE on the back of it but at least they can say they stuck their neck out and actually stood for something, that they pretty much have consistently harped on about. To remain as an EU member. Especially amongst the blathering fucking albino imposter for a PM and an opposition as strong as 30 loo rolls for a quid.
Spot on. I don't understand why they are getting so much abuse when they are only doing what they have said they would do all along.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 17, 2019, 08:52:06
Fcuk me Horlock07 you've really pissed me off now.

My work here is done, cheerio!  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 17, 2019, 08:55:42
Spot on. I don't understand why they are getting so much abuse when they are only doing what they have said they would do all along.

In terms of doing what has been said all along, its also worth noting what basis Vote Leave campaigned upon and the 2017 manifestos of the Tories and Labour (which got the vast majority of MP's elected) said...

So just for the hard brexiteers benefit who like to complain that those dastardly MP's are going against the 'will of the people', about whether leaving without a deal in any way accords with the mandate given by the referendum:

The official campaign to leave was led by an organisation called "Vote Leave". Here is what they had to say about leaving without a deal:

"Taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop - we will negotiate the terms of a deal before we start any legal process to leave"

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/our_case.html - slide 11

Then in 2017, both parties stood on a platform of accepting the Brexit vote, but in each case it was explicitly on the basis of reaching a deal.

The Tory manifesto committed them to:

"We will seek a deep and special partnership including a comprehensive free trade and customs agreement. […] The final agreement will be subject to a vote in both houses of parliament."

The Labour manifesto explicitly ruled out no-deal:

“Labour recognises that leaving the EU with ‘no deal’ is the worst possible deal for Britain and that it would do damage to our economy and trade. We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option and if needs be negotiate transitional arrangements to avoid a ‘cliff-edge’ for the UK economy."

So neither party campaigned on the basis of leaving without a deal: therefore, MPs who are rejecting a no-deal exit are explicitly following their manifesto commitments.

Simples




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 17, 2019, 09:02:16
I see Johnson's sterling work in boosting Britain's status on the world stage continues - humiliated by Luxembourg.

TBF not sure he was humiliated by Luxembourg, he humiliated himself singlehandedly by being too frit to turn up. Strangely 75 middle class British people singing songs was enough to scare him away in this case, although many more than that shouting at him did not stop him posing outside no.10 when elected.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 17, 2019, 09:27:43
TBF not sure he was humiliated by Luxembourg, he humiliated himself singlehandedly by being too frit to turn up. Strangely 75 middle class British people singing songs was enough to scare him away in this case, although many more than that shouting at him did not stop him posing outside no.10 when elected.
Fair point, although either way not exactly the Incredible Hulk was it? More "The Incredible Cringing Bottler".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 17, 2019, 09:52:01
Fair point, although either way not exactly the Incredible Hulk was it? More "The Incredible Cringing Bottler".

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EEfm8p8W4AU0aRe?format=jpg&name=medium)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 17, 2019, 11:08:11
Cameron has now said his mistake with Austerity was not doing it harder and faster. Austerity being his pet name for the pig's head.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 17, 2019, 13:10:23
"Nigel Farage walks into a pub and says, I'll have a pint of beer please. The barman pours a pint, then throws it all over Farage.
'What did you do that for?' says Farage, drenched to the skin.
'Because you're in a metaphor which illustrates the stupidity of asking for something but not stipulating how you wanted it delivered!'
'But I'm still thirsty, so I want a pint -- this time in a glass!' says Farage.
'You can't ask again!' said the barman.
'Why not?' sniveled Farage.
'Democracy.' says the barman."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, September 17, 2019, 13:31:14
"Nigel Farage walks into a pub and says, I'll have a pint of beer please. The barman pours a pint, then throws it all over Farage.
'What did you do that for?' says Farage, drenched to the skin.
'Because you're in a metaphor which illustrates the stupidity of asking for something but not stipulating how you wanted it delivered!'
'But I'm still thirsty, so I want a pint -- this time in a glass!' says Farage.
'You can't ask again!' said the barman.
'Why not?' sniveled Farage.
'Democracy.' says the barman."
I have a feeling of déjà vu!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Tuesday, September 17, 2019, 13:53:18
 :pint:"A party unilaterally revoking article 50 is wrong though"

Post from Batch a few pages back, but not answered so far as I can see (apologies if I'm blind).

The Lib Dems are not proposing unilaterally to cancel Article 50.  They continue to support a People's Vote, and were one to happen, would support Remain.

However, in the event of a General Election rather than a PV, a central plank of the Lib Dem manifesto will be Remain (via revokation of Article 50).  People who vote Lib Dem will therefore be perfectly aware of what they are voting for.  As has been said, a Lib Dem majority is highly unlikely.  Nonetheless, were it to happen, you could hardly claim that they were being undemocratic by doing what they have promised all along!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, September 17, 2019, 17:29:35
The Lib Dems are not proposing unilaterally to cancel Article 50.  They continue to support a People's Vote, and were one to happen, would support Remain.

However, in the event of a General Election rather than a PV, a central plank of the Lib Dem manifesto will be Remain (via revokation of Article 50). 

So they are proposing to unilaterally cancel Article 50 if they ever got into a position where they can do so.  If they can't unilaterally cancel then they will push for a second vote as an alternative strategy.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, September 19, 2019, 22:16:17
Today, Brexit Party MEPs abstained in an EU vote calling for the release of (British National) Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.

But don't forget, ladies and gentleman, that Jeremy Corbyn is a traitor.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, September 20, 2019, 07:44:32
Well.  She sounds a bit foreign ish and may have a 'funny tinge' so, you know, blue passports.



Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, September 20, 2019, 09:13:06
Quote
:pint:"A party unilaterally revoking article 50 is wrong though"

Post from Batch a few pages back, but not answered so far as I can see (apologies if I'm blind).

The Lib Dems are not proposing unilaterally to cancel Article 50.  They continue to support a People's Vote, and were one to happen, would support Remain.

However, in the event of a General Election rather than a PV, a central plank of the Lib Dem manifesto will be Remain (via revokation of Article 50).  People who vote Lib Dem will therefore be perfectly aware of what they are voting for.  As has been said, a Lib Dem majority is highly unlikely.  Nonetheless, were it to happen, you could hardly claim that they were being undemocratic by doing what they have, promised all along!
yup, I get that.

I guess it wouldn't be undemocratic if they won, but it doesn't feel right to me. And as I say, I'm very apposed to brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 20, 2019, 09:43:07
Today, Brexit Party MEPs abstained in an EU vote calling for the release of (British National) Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.
FFS, what possible rationale could they have for that? That's appalling. Although not as bad as Johnson's appalling thoughtlessness which is why she's still rotting in an Iranian jail at all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 20, 2019, 10:04:05
yup, I get that.

I guess it wouldn't be indemocratic if they won, but it doesn't feel right to me. And as I say, I'm very apposed to brexit.

If its in the manifesto and people vote for it, that's what democracy do to you.

Polling seems to suggest they could make some big old gains in London and especially Surrey, with both Raab and Hunt being in danger of losing their seats, which would be nice.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 20, 2019, 10:16:39
If its in the manifesto and people vote for it, that's what democracy do to you.

Polling seems to suggest they could make some big old gains in London and especially Surrey, with both Raab and Hunt being in danger of losing their seats, which would be nice.
It'd be hilarious if they could win Islington and Uxbridge.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 20, 2019, 11:00:08
So, report today shows a marked drop in the number of pupils getting the basic 5 GCSEs over the last 5 years, with 18% of school leavers now leaving school as "low acheivers":

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49766178

Swindon is one of the towns called out in this report as being especially hard hit:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/sep/20/shameful-rise-18-of-children-leave-school-without-basic-qualifications

This is the impact of Gove's education reforms, masterminded by his then special adviser, Dominic Cummings. Two of the "intellectuals" behind No Deal Brexit. These two fuckwits drove through education reforms that head teachers said at the time were harmful and not backed by the evidence. 5 years on and our kids are paying the price for their ideological experiment. Wankers.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, September 20, 2019, 11:11:19
Support staff who would have helped those in most need of extra help were the ones who lost their jobs due to savage Tory cuts too. All public services go into decline under Tory rule.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, September 20, 2019, 11:14:03
So, report today shows a marked drop in the number of pupils getting the basic 5 GCSEs over the last 5 years, with 18% of school leavers now leaving school as "low acheivers":

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49766178

Swindon is one of the towns called out in this report as being especially hard hit:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/sep/20/shameful-rise-18-of-children-leave-school-without-basic-qualifications

This is the impact of Gove's education reforms, masterminded by his then special adviser, Dominic Cummings. Two of the "intellectuals" behind No Deal Brexit. These two fuckwits drove through education reforms that head teachers said at the time were harmful and not backed by the evidence. 5 years on and our kids are paying the price for their ideological experiment. Wankers.

Although I'm sure Government policies haven't helped, I suspect there are a range of other factors coming into play, to account for Swindon's continued poor educational attainment.

Remember it was about 3 years ago that Ofsted sent their damning letter to SBC, about the state of all education in the Borough...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/swindons-children-failed-by-schools-at-every-key-stage


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 20, 2019, 11:29:42
Support staff who would have helped those in most need of extra help were the ones who lost their jobs due to savage Tory cuts too. All public services go into decline under Tory rule.
Sorry, yes should have said, "austerity" underpins all of this. But Gove and Cummings made a bad situation even worse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Friday, September 20, 2019, 11:48:41
So, report today shows a marked drop in the number of pupils getting the basic 5 GCSEs over the last 5 years, with 18% of school leavers now leaving school as "low acheivers":

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49766178

Swindon is one of the towns called out in this report as being especially hard hit:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/sep/20/shameful-rise-18-of-children-leave-school-without-basic-qualifications

This is the impact of Gove's education reforms, masterminded by his then special adviser, Dominic Cummings. Two of the "intellectuals" behind No Deal Brexit. These two fuckwits drove through education reforms that head teachers said at the time were harmful and not backed by the evidence. 5 years on and our kids are paying the price for their ideological experiment. Wankers.



In unrelated news...

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/sep/19/education-spending-fall-from-2010-to-now-was-worst-since-1970s-ifs


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, September 20, 2019, 13:21:21
Sorry, yes should have said, "austerity" underpins all of this. But Gove and Cummings made a bad situation even worse.

As I said, government policy doesn't help, but other factors shouldn't be overlooked. 

Given today is about kids going on climate strke worldwide, the malign affects of air pollution shouldn't be ruled out, recent reports have highlighted how children at schools are particularly affected by idling cars etc.  Kids brains are developing they need a good environment for that to happpen, they need exercise and a good diet.  I've pointed out before how you can see, on a good day the photo chemical smog hanging over the Town.

Many of these kids with low achievement, just don't get a chance to fully develop their mind's capabilties, as they don't wire up the connections.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 20, 2019, 13:33:02
As I said, government policy doesn't help, but other factors shouldn't be overlooked. 

Given today is about kids going on climate strke worldwide, the malign affects of air pollution shouldn't be ruled out, recent reports have highlighted how children at schools are particularly affected by idling cars etc.  Kids brains are developing they need a good environment for that to happpen, they need exercise and a good diet.  I've pointed out before how you can see, on a good day the photo chemical smog hanging over the Town.

Many of these kids with low achievement, just don't get a chance to fully develop their mind's capabilties, as they don't wire up the connections.
True dat. Albeit that's also a result of successive governments' inaction on these matters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 20, 2019, 14:46:52
Now the govt have finally managed to scribble some ideas on the back of a fag packet for how to overcome the Irish backstop issue, they've told the EU negotiators they can only see the proposals if they agree to keep them secret from the EU govts that would have to approve them. WTF?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/20/fresh-brexit-talks-row-uk-eu-proposals-secret

This would be hilarious if it wasn't likely to have such a disastrous outcome


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Oaksey Moonraker on Friday, September 20, 2019, 20:42:26
Going slightly off track did anyone see this on the BBC giving an example for targeted Facebook ads?

BBC News - Conservative Party targets over-45s with Facebook Brexit ads
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49727121(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190920/16df3ccc7993701853979929dc8e06c5.jpg)

Sent from my HTC U11


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, September 22, 2019, 08:23:44
Who’s the twat outside Marr’s Window shouting ‘Stop Breakfast’?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: moredonboy on Sunday, September 22, 2019, 12:45:02
anyone seen this yet?

https://www.wiltshire999s.co.uk/british-army-to-set-up-camps-in-swindon-ahead-of-brexit-civil-unrest/?utm_source=bestforbritain.org&fbclid=IwAR0EWr5G6O7yryKpAI6Zq3f3ELf82pbVlGk-yGe6rUKcTe1wJ21zAQY8xjQ


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, September 22, 2019, 18:18:00
anyone seen this yet?

https://www.wiltshire999s.co.uk/british-army-to-set-up-camps-in-swindon-ahead-of-brexit-civil-unrest/?utm_source=bestforbritain.org&fbclid=IwAR0EWr5G6O7yryKpAI6Zq3f3ELf82pbVlGk-yGe6rUKcTe1wJ21zAQY8xjQ

I seriously doubt the Army would use crack troops from the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers to quell civil unrest. The REME (which I served in) aren't renowned for their military prowess...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, September 22, 2019, 18:34:39
I seriously doubt the Army would use crack troops from the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers to quell civil unrest. The REME (which I served in) aren't renowned for their military prowess...

They must be lethal with a spanner and screwdriver though surely?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 09:31:48
 :popcorn:

 Off to The Tower with him....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 09:38:59
So.....  unanimously it is a matter for the courts and was unlawful... the government need to get some new lawyers!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 09:52:12
So.....  unanimously it is a matter for the courts and was unlawful... the government need to get some new lawyers!
No, they just need a new Prime Minister.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 09:57:22
No, they just need a new Prime Minister.

That would happen in a proper grown up democracy, in the Banana Republic we have become I cannot see him going anywhere. Instead cue more Enemies of the People nonsense in the papers tomorrow spouted without any hint of irony nor embarrassment by the populists who spouted about taking back control!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 10:22:49
What a kerfuffle!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 10:26:11
What a shame we don't have an effective opposition to stand up to this bunch of charlatans and lawbreakers


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 10:31:20
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFOPAAOWkAMW1r0?format=jpg&name=small)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 10:36:19
So Boris lied to the queen then. soapy tit wank, not like he's got any form with telling the truth is it :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

The pro brexit brigade don't give a shit what he does though and that's the most concerning thing for me. They want brexit at any cost.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Leggett on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 10:43:41
I seriously doubt the Army would use crack troops from the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers to quell civil unrest. The REME (which I served in) aren't renowned for their military prowess...

My dad was REME as well. He has so far resisted taking my boys to the REME museum because the sculpture outside features a plumbers spanner that he says no engineer would ever be seen near :D





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 11:00:19
So Boris lied to the queen then. soapy tit wank, not like he's got any form with telling the truth is it :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

The pro brexit brigade don't give a shit what he does though and that's the most concerning thing for me. They want brexit at any cost.

Undermining the rule of law is one of the first gambits in the fascist playbook, they can only get away with it with the compliance of the MSM and a sizeable number of ordinary citizens.... what we're seeing atm.

 Certainly anyone who values the basic tenets of our society, rule of law, democracy, freedom of speech, need to be vigilant.  Although far from perfect these are things which have taken a long time to evolve, and we shouldn't just assume their continuation, without fight.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 11:02:16
Undermining the rule of law is one of the first gambits in the fascist playbook, they can only get away with it with the compliance of the MSM and a sizeable number of ordinary citizens.... what we're seeing atm.

 Certainly anyone who values the basic tenets of our society, rule of law, democracy, freedom of speech, need to be vigilant.  Although far from perfect these are things which have taken a long time to evolve, and we shouldn't just assume their continuation, without fight.
Well said. Will be interesting to see how Buckland, one of the most senior law officers of the land, responds to this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 11:16:47
He'll say whatever he feels will further his own career as he's consistently shown.
Nobody with a shred of decency would ever have endorsed Boris as prime minister would they?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 11:20:01
He'll say whatever he feels will further his own career as he's consistently shown.
Nobody with a shred of decency would ever have endorsed Boris as prime minister would they?

100% spot on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 11:21:29
Johnson could always appeal ..... to the European Court of Justice :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 11:29:12
Johnson could always appeal ..... to the European Court of Justice :)

Happy to be contradicted on this but I think the ECJ is only the Supreme Court for matters of interpretation of EU law, and this is solely UK law so as I understand couldn't be referred. Would be entertaining though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 11:34:45
Horlock is right.

Unfortunately, Boris' indoctrinated zombies will learn that the ECJ is rather less powerful than claimed and it has no standing to rule on the UK constitution.

Personally I am proud  :toocool: at the independence shown by our judiciary in once again having upheld the sovereignty of our Parliament.

A comment from across the Pond lamented that their own newer and supposedly more independent Supreme Court had been shown up by the UK's SC.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 12:32:14
Courts overruling the government is never something to be done lightly in a democracy but if ever there is an instance  that justifies it then this must surely be the one.

Pleasantly surprised by the decision (I wrongly believed that they would have to rule that they can't interfere) and relieved to see that it was unanimous which makes the verdict that much more difficult to challenge credibly.

Struggle to feel any jubilation however.  This verdict has (surely?) stopped us going into the very dark place that would be no deal by stealth, but that is not remotely the same as moving us into a good place.  The whole mess is still dominated by factions looking to win rather than come up with a solution that can achieve a reasonable consensus in the country.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 12:39:14
I'm not sure we've moved on much. Johnson has already started spinning this into the "elites vs the people" narrative. With every failed outrage, he's showing Brexiteers that he'll do anything to take on the "establishment" in order to deliver the "will of the people".

Every lost vote in Parliament or the courts strengthens his goading of the opposition to call an election. And it's only then that the game really starts for him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 12:42:12
Hasn't taken long has it.... (taken from Facebook)

(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70868020_2448404431924450_8842261223400538112_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_eui2=AeHJ1qkDFgydQ6Lg6VX0LDe5V-QQlbxs9_LjjQ8AxKjB7nUQ0jASMY2a_OKNPEIxK66ca_8WnZIGjS0uV0Mb6R8kp8U8CKXmU5CSsbyY7pU45Q&_nc_oc=AQkIyHPTCh0XqnNtLNhwAPY82gUC4mVvQLwfcBvkSbQ_GVFD5QC8rzuBbHqCktXNYdVuSLyMVcbedsOI1bZ_KZi8&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=36442fc7c6b48aaffd9dbfa8b98f6bb1&oe=5DF45D4D)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 12:43:03
Courts overruling the government is never something to be done lightly in a democracy but if ever there is an instance  that justifies it then this must surely be the one.

Pleasantly surprised by the decision (I wrongly believed that they would have to rule that they can't interfere) and relieved to see that it was unanimous which makes the verdict that much more difficult to challenge credibly.
Slightly surprised to see you saying this Pax, IIRC it was you who praised Lord Sumption's excellent recent series of Reith Lectures on legal overreach. Wholly agree that this is a case where judicial correction of the executive is justified, but what made you change your mind? (If indeed you have, I may just have misread your posts on Sumption. Or it might not even have been you, in which case, just ignore me :) )


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 12:43:42
There was me expecting to see a dearth of praise for the scintillating policies coming out of the New/Old Labour conference so the silence, nada, nowt, nixypooch, fuckall. I hadn’t realised all you Labour tub thumpers were so shy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 12:46:06
Hasn't taken long has it.... (taken from Facebook)

(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70868020_2448404431924450_8842261223400538112_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_eui2=AeHJ1qkDFgydQ6Lg6VX0LDe5V-QQlbxs9_LjjQ8AxKjB7nUQ0jASMY2a_OKNPEIxK66ca_8WnZIGjS0uV0Mb6R8kp8U8CKXmU5CSsbyY7pU45Q&_nc_oc=AQkIyHPTCh0XqnNtLNhwAPY82gUC4mVvQLwfcBvkSbQ_GVFD5QC8rzuBbHqCktXNYdVuSLyMVcbedsOI1bZ_KZi8&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=36442fc7c6b48aaffd9dbfa8b98f6bb1&oe=5DF45D4D)
As Reg said, first thing the fascists do is attack independent judiciary (and independent media, but not necessary in this case as most of the papers are so slavishly compliant with the hard right agenda)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 12:52:11
So now the PM and Tory PM's are arguing (with a straight face) that the decision regarding the prorogation is an attempt to stop Brexit, despite arguing in the courts only last week that the process they were following had absolutely nothing to do with Brexit, this is double-think that even Orwell would have discounted as being unbelievable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 12:52:16
There was me expecting to see a dearth of praise for the scintillating policies coming out of the New/Old Labour conference so the silence, nada, nowt, nixypooch, fuckall. I hadn’t realised all you Labour tub thumpers were so shy.

What do you think dearth means?  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 12:59:11
What do you think dearth means?  :hmmm:

Lord Vaper


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 13:15:36
What do you think dearth means?  :hmmm:

Nice innit!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 13:40:23
I can feel convenient military action coming on.....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...il-attack-trump-military-action-a9116146.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 14:19:16
Well said. Will be interesting to see how Buckland, one of the most senior law officers of the land, responds to this.

So Buckland's response is that the government of which he is part disagrees with the Supreme Court decision. Shameful.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 14:21:17
So Buckland's response is that the govenment of which he is part disagrees with the Supreme Court decision. Shameful.
Indeed, but as arriba pointed out, wholly predictable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 14:58:12
So Buckland's response is that the government of which he is part disagrees with the Supreme Court decision. Shameful.

Hang on, using their own definition of Extremism, opposition to the rule of law makes them potentially extremists.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFOzaUVX4AUNpBL?format=jpg&name=medium)

Source https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/97976/prevent-strategy-review.pdf

I demand to know how these people are being dangerously radicalised at a risk to the general public.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 15:46:34
So looking more and more like Sir Geoffrey Cox the Attorney General has been nominated to be flung under the bus to save Johnson and Cummings skin https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1176513731418820609

QC's now noting that leaking the advice of the Law Officers is a serious matter. Leon Brittan had to resign during the Westland affair in 1986 for having done so, its also in breach of the Ministerial Code.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 16:05:54
Johnson and Cummings are banking everything on Corbyn and his acolytes having sufficient hubris to take the bait and call an election, where the attack-dog press will massacre them.

Bizarrely, the anti-populist coalition of everyone but the Tory hard right and the DUP stand to retain better control of events if they don't fall for this ploy, and continue to dictate the parliamentary agenda while Johnson remains PM in name only.

Hold out. Let him spin.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 16:36:31
Johnson knows no matter what he does Labour will make a bigger fuck up than him so has no shame and apparently no boundaries.

Labours vote rigging episode yesterday, the 32 hour week (for somehow no reduction in pay) and to abolish private schools and effectively seize their land being their latest clusterfucks. Unless Labour shed Corbyn et el and these momentum twats they will never be a credible option again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 17:04:48


Bizarrely, the anti-populist coalition of everyone but the Tory hard right and the DUP stand to retain better control of events if they don't fall for this ploy, and continue to dictate the parliamentary agenda while Johnson remains PM in name only.

Hold out. Let him spin.

Indeed, let him fuck up by himself. He keeps on doing the same things expecting not to make mistakes. Johnson has done this historically. The only good thing he did was bring bikes to London, hardly masterminding though is it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 18:03:42
Slightly surprised to see you saying this Pax, IIRC it was you who praised Lord Sumption's excellent recent series of Reith Lectures on legal overreach. Wholly agree that this is a case where judicial correction of the executive is justified, but what made you change your mind? (If indeed you have, I may just have misread your posts on Sumption. Or it might not even have been you, in which case, just ignore me :) )
I'd never wish to ignore you  :) but if it was me then I was winging it even more than usual as I've never even seen Sumption's Reith lectures. The only comment I can recall making on the legal challenges was something to the effect that I could see why the Scottish judges would be angered by Johnson's blatant misuse of the prorogation process but that the Supreme Court would back the English ruling not the Scottish one.  Yet another thing I was wrong about!  I got my understanding re 'lack of jurisdiction' from The Times.  They may have got it from Sumption I guess?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 18:06:26
Hasn't taken long has it.... (taken from Facebook)

(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70868020_2448404431924450_8842261223400538112_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_eui2=AeHJ1qkDFgydQ6Lg6VX0LDe5V-QQlbxs9_LjjQ8AxKjB7nUQ0jASMY2a_OKNPEIxK66ca_8WnZIGjS0uV0Mb6R8kp8U8CKXmU5CSsbyY7pU45Q&_nc_oc=AQkIyHPTCh0XqnNtLNhwAPY82gUC4mVvQLwfcBvkSbQ_GVFD5QC8rzuBbHqCktXNYdVuSLyMVcbedsOI1bZ_KZi8&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=36442fc7c6b48aaffd9dbfa8b98f6bb1&oe=5DF45D4D)

Am I being thick here?  I thought it was 11 judges who gave the judgment? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 18:14:03
I'm not sure we've moved on much. Johnson has already started spinning this into the "elites vs the people" narrative. With every failed outrage, he's showing Brexiteers that he'll do anything to take on the "establishment" in order to deliver the "will of the people".

Every lost vote in Parliament or the courts strengthens his goading of the opposition to call an election. And it's only then that the game really starts for him.

Absolutely.  It's difficult to beat populists simply by pointing out their failings.  There needs to be a credible alternative.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 18:40:50
Absolutely.  It's difficult to beat populists simply by pointing out their failings.  There needs to be a credible alternative.

There is a credible alternative, its communism, always worked a treat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 19:22:13
There is a credible alternative, its communism, always worked a treat.

Do you think Boris is looking out for you SRK? Genuine question.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 21:03:55
Do you think Boris is looking out for you SRK? Genuine question.
about as much as anyone else in westminster.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 21:18:54
Don't think any of them really give a fuck about any of us,  all in it for their own ends,   the country's in a major mess.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: NotHarryAgombar on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 21:39:52
Am I the only person seeing the irony of a bunch of Old Etonians complaining about an “establishment stitch-up”?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 21:46:35
Am I the only person seeing the irony of a bunch of Old Etonians complaining about an “establishment stitch-up”?

I think it's been noted. The whole thing is a mass of irony.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 03:46:25
Am I being thick here?  I thought it was 11 judges who gave the judgment? 
It was. There's 12 Supreme Court judges but only 11 were used in this case, to avoid a potential 50/50 split.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 09:11:16
I'd never wish to ignore you  :) but if it was me then I was winging it even more than usual as I've never even seen Sumption's Reith lectures. The only comment I can recall making on the legal challenges was something to the effect that I could see why the Scottish judges would be angered by Johnson's blatant misuse of the prorogation process but that the Supreme Court would back the English ruling not the Scottish one.  Yet another thing I was wrong about!  I got my understanding re 'lack of jurisdiction' from The Times.  They may have got it from Sumption I guess?
It was someone on here who mentioned the lectures which caused me to go listen to them, which I was very grateful for. Apologies to both you and whoever it was who signposted me to them for the confusion (and my lack of gratitude to whoever did point them out).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 10:27:32
Johnson now back in the UK: the Illegal has landed :)

(Stolen from someone on Twitter)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 11:54:16
Johnson now back in the UK: the Illegal has landed :)

(Stolen from someone on Twitter)
Did he get met at the airport and arrested like the rest of us would be?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 12:12:35
Don't think any of them really give a fuck about any of us,  all in it for their own ends,   the country's in a major mess.
Jo Cox did, she died for giving a fuck


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 12:13:18
Some misconceptions in the last couple of posts. Boris has acted unlawfully as he he has tried something on that is outside of the law.

What he did isn't illegal, he didn't break any laws.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 12:17:54
Just watching the debate in Parliament and the most striking thing is that the local boy made good, Geoffrey Cox, is a bit of a prick.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 12:39:38
Brexiteers: "We have to leave the EU to take back control from the undemocratic ECJ. We demand British laws, enforced by British judges in British courts!"
Supreme Court: "OK"
Brexiteers: "No, no, not like that."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 12:47:35
Some misconceptions in the last couple of posts. Boris has acted unlawfully as he he has tried something on that is outside of the law.

What he did isn't illegal, he didn't break any laws.
Not according to this guy, who I think knows more about this area than either of us, he says Illegality is precisely the right term:

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1176817155821789185?s=20

It matters little what term is used though. The important thing is when is Johnson getting carted off to the tower?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 13:03:53
Just watching the debate in Parliament and the most striking thing is that the local boy made good, Geoffrey Cox, is a bit of a prick.

A nasty piece of work cut from the same cloth as Buckland.....  both voting against legislation to clamp down on rogue landlords, both are landlords, and both being implicated in at best dodgy film companies used for tax evasion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 13:10:52
A nasty piece of work cut from the same cloth as Buckland.....  both voting against legislation to clamp down on rogue landlords, both are landlords, and both being implicated in at best dodgy film companies used for tax evasion.
The difference is that they know the law much better than we do, if only I'd trained to be an MP Instead of a lorry driver.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 13:32:52
The difference is that they know the law much better than we do
Although not well enough apparently :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 13:36:57
Just watching the debate in Parliament and the most striking thing is that the local boy made good, Geoffrey Cox, is a bit of a prick.

Its the barrister in him that comes out, playing to the crowd, it was like he was auditioning for some Shakespearean piece at times.

TBH the whole thing just illustrated how pointless parliament has become, took bloody ages for anyone to pipe up and point out that we had been assured by the government that it was nothing to do with Brexit then Cox wittering for hours that the legal case was all about delaying Brexit and no one picked him up on the fact that Mays deal failed due to Tories voting against it.

I am not sure whether its due to the kicking he has got in the media but Bercow seemed to give him an easy ride as he sailed very close with some of the comments he was making.

One highlight later was when questioned about the grants to Boris's alleged squeeze, the chinless wonder from the DCMS sarkily suggested to Tom Watson that he should look on the companies website to see how legit they were, which Watson duly did in the chamber on his blower which revealed that their website didn't actually work.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 13:38:27
Not according to this guy, who I think knows more about this area than either of us, he says Illegality is precisely the right term:

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1176817155821789185?s=20

It matters little what term is used though. The important thing is when is Johnson getting carted off to the tower?


DA Green is great on Twitter, but when he is interviewed (he is also very good) Christ his accent is dreadful!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 15:22:01
Afternoon update in brief:

Gove still refuses to answer when questioned over the status of Yellowhammer, changing from base case to worse case; and whom authorised such change. He was asked by at least three MPs and continued to skirt around the question. Glaringly flaky.

Soubry using a play on words manages to get away with calling Gove (or possibly Boris) a "Blue-tit". Quite fine in the banter stakes but parliament (in the current environment) isn't really the place. Although tell us something new.

Keir Stammer probably the only senior ranking MP who spoke a noodle of sense, yet it was all largely left unanswered.

That really tells us everything about our political status right now. No clue. No real answers and playground puns.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 17:11:37
Afternoon update in brief:

Gove still refuses to answer when questioned over the status of Yellowhammer, changing from base case to worse case; and whom authorised such change. He was asked by at least three MPs and continued to skirt around the question. Glaringly flaky.


Wouldn't the easy way for the government to protect his fact be just to release 'black swan' the worst case scenario they have apparently projected?


Sent from my SM-J330FN


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 17:17:55
You'd think...but this is UK Politics so anything of sense or logic seems to be bypassed and goes straight to lunacy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 17:43:17
Johnson currently spending his whole statement bashing Corbyn and not really answering or resolving any of his problems in respect to Brexit. Continually turning on others and the rest of parliament? Hmmm.

A serious case of a very black kettle calling the pot by the same hue. We're fucked under this current guise. Are we spiralling towards becoming a fascist state?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: bathford on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 18:04:18
What is also interesting is the Opposition front bench. Whilst Corbyn has his turn, his number 2, sat along side him didn't support him once..He sat there arms crossed and refusing to acknowledge his 'leader'. That's party unity at it's finest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 18:38:43
I've taken to watching the live stream from the House of Commons when they're sitting in the evening, it's always interesting.

They're going at it now, Johnson is there (it was Gove and Rees-Mogg the other times I watched).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgnZKT3Mp_o


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 19:39:54
Fuck me, Johnson is a broken record. You can guarantee, regardless of the question posed, his answer always ends with
Quote
...and getting this (Brexit) done.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, September 25, 2019, 23:27:20
Well, I hate Boris and all those Tory cunts even more after that tonight. They really are a despicable bunch of fucking arseholes one and all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, September 26, 2019, 06:03:26
indeed they are. and the lesser educated and elderly brexiteers lap it up, even though yellowhammer says it's them that's going to get fucked over the most


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, September 26, 2019, 06:22:56
So how could a GE make any difference to Brexit? No matter who wins - prob the Tories again - the problems with Brexit remain.

How can they expect people to vote for a new government based on a single issue - Brexit.

I’d vote Remain but couldn’t vote for the Lib Dems. I’d like a second vote but couldn’t vote for Corbyn. I don’t want Boris.

Must be thousands in the same position.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, September 26, 2019, 06:36:08
indeed. that's why Boris is keen


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, September 26, 2019, 08:19:29
Do you think the Tory's would get a majority in a General Election?? He's not exactly uniting the nation is he!!! I reckon it would be a hung parliament.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, September 26, 2019, 08:30:47
Well, I hate Boris and all those Tory cunts even more after that tonight. They really are a despicable bunch of fucking arseholes one and all.

My sentiments exactly.

I’ve never understood how normal, working class people can look at these clearly elitist old Etonians and think “yep those are the guys who understand my day-to-day life and who are going to look after my best interests”.

And yet so many people do.  Just don’t get it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, September 26, 2019, 08:40:09
I suppose i'm what's classed as a floating voter, don't have any allegiances to a party and have voted for all 3 of the main parties during my voting life.

Havent a bloody clue who I'd vote for if there was an election tomorrow.  It doesn't really matter as I live in one of the safest tory seats going and that won't ever change.  Only hope would be if Labour/Lib Dems came up with some pact so only one of them stood as essentially the anti-tory vote, even then they would still be about 5-10k short.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, September 26, 2019, 08:44:22
Quote from: michael
Do you think the Tory's would get a majority in a General Election?? He's not exactly uniting the nation is he!!! I reckon it would be a hung parliament.

I honestly wouldn't like to call it. it's so hard to tell how many are swept up with it all (pro Boris, anti-Corbyn), and whether brexit/anti-brexit feeling would override national  concerns when voting.

I think he's got a better chance by doing what he's doing, even though it's clearly dispicable and damaging.
-------
looks like he's got a plan to get around the Benn bill.

genuine question, what happens if he ignores/the spirit of it at the legal challenge can't be done in time?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 26, 2019, 08:44:44
That display last night was a new low, even for the despicable cunt that is Johnson. "Pass my Brexit and you might be safer from being murdered by the far right nutters I'm whipping up into a frenzy". Fucking horrible.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 26, 2019, 09:09:27
You lying twat!

https://twitter.com/BBCr4today/status/1177143614331400193

The Editor here deserves some credit for the cut in this.... https://twitter.com/maya_rstw/status/1176979198667309058


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, September 26, 2019, 09:26:08
"Think about the PM"

Fucking hell.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 26, 2019, 09:29:10
As James O'Brien noted last evening...

'You started off falling for some harmless guff about ‘sovereignty’ & ‘British fish’ but you’ve ended up defending a man who maligned the memory of a murdered MP & insulted her friends. In parliament. Time for a rethink, surely?'

One thing that was rather rammed home by the spectacle last night was Johnson (and Cox who was the more than willing warm up act) can basically say what they like, blatantly lying and no one is allowed to reply, it was telling that the Prime Minister can dismiss an actual literal murder as “humbug”, but if anyone were to - accurately - label him a “liar”, the Speaker would have to eject them from the House.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 26, 2019, 10:09:57
Johnson's lying and stoking the flames does all though serve as a useful distraction from the growing corruption scandal around him apparently lashing out taxpayers' money to a nubile young blonde he was getting "technology lessons" from while mayor. Presumably "technology lessons" is the new "Ugandan discussions"?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 26, 2019, 10:23:04
Johnson's lying and stoking the flames does all though serve as a useful distraction from the growing corruption scandal around him apparently lashing out taxpayers' money to a nubile young blonde he was getting "technology lessons" from while mayor. Presumably "technology lessons" is the new "Ugandan discussions"?

Possibly so, I wonder whether his rattled and tetchy state last evening may have been a tantrum in having to come home early from New York, where he had planned to be in his hotel suite discussing 'technological issues' with a couple of new friends.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 26, 2019, 12:48:10
And in news that will surprise absolutely no-one, Gove has been caught out lying to the House about the preparedness of leading businesses for Brexit:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49833221


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, September 26, 2019, 20:08:37
Gove clearly hammered when in the chamber.

I've no doubt that the press will be all over it tomorrow. Just as much as when Abbott had a can of mojito on a train.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, September 26, 2019, 20:12:12
How do you tell whether Gove is hammered or not?  His natural state looks like me on the lash.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, September 26, 2019, 20:26:35
This was clearly alcohol hammered, as opposed to his usual coked-up hammered

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taqxVxSoOB8&fbclid=IwAR1gT_h8O4phTnRmpQg-fFaCZkeP3KMmJxUASv89Ald6a62sIMjKkxiOM80


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 27, 2019, 09:48:29
An interesting read; https://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/26/cabinet-ethics-probe-into-johnsons-hedge-fund-backers/

Which raises two questions.

1. If leaving without a deal is fine, why are sponsors of Johnson betting serious money on British business/economy/currency going down the toilet?

2. If Johnson received funding from people who will make millions from crashing us out..isn’t that a serious conflict of interest and might be it, ‘unlawful’?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, September 27, 2019, 10:08:24
Or out and out illegal, even?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 27, 2019, 10:58:37
Good explanation here on why the latest mooted jiggery pokery to sidestep the Benn Act and force through No Deal is a load of bollocks, legally:

https://davidallengreen.com/2019/09/brexit-padfield-and-the-benn-act/

Although as the author notes, it may be the intention of such bollocks is not to actually force through No Deal but to heighten the perception of conflict between the executive and the judiciary, at the same time as the govt seems to be deliberately ramping up the same tension between the executive and the legislature. A very dangerous strategy which leads to some very dark endings.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, September 27, 2019, 11:39:39
This was clearly alcohol hammered, as opposed to his usual coked-up hammered

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taqxVxSoOB8&fbclid=IwAR1gT_h8O4phTnRmpQg-fFaCZkeP3KMmJxUASv89Ald6a62sIMjKkxiOM80

We've all been there, popped to lunch, got over excited and forgotten work still beckons.  Well, in the 90's anyway.  Some of the best ideas come when drunk, they should have let him talk abour Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, September 27, 2019, 11:46:52
Good explanation here on why the latest mooted jiggery pokery to sidestep the Benn Act and force through No Deal is a load of bollocks, legally:

https://davidallengreen.com/2019/09/brexit-padfield-and-the-benn-act/

Although as the author notes, it may be the intention of such bollocks is not to actually force through No Deal but to heighten the perception of conflict between the executive and the judiciary, at the same time as the govt seems to be deliberately ramping up the same tension between the executive and the legislature. A very dangerous strategy which leads to some very dark endings.

Yep. We're getting dangerously close to Bannon-style politics. Good article on this:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-jo-cox-death-brendan-trump-brexit-culture-war-division-a9121101.html?fbclid=IwAR0pYRxdrOlyqn69f0IuhrPY5lSAUmn2wYV7xCgr_koEX4qZSGrXZZugdPE


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 27, 2019, 11:54:58
Yep. We're getting dangerously close to Bannon-style politics.
I don't think we're close to it, this is all straight out of Bannon's playbook. No coincidence he has close links with Farage, Johnson and Cummings, they have learned from the guy who mainstreamed white nationalism in the US.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 27, 2019, 13:13:07
Good explanation here on why the latest mooted jiggery pokery to sidestep the Benn Act and force through No Deal is a load of bollocks, legally:

https://davidallengreen.com/2019/09/brexit-padfield-and-the-benn-act/

Although as the author notes, it may be the intention of such bollocks is not to actually force through No Deal but to heighten the perception of conflict between the executive and the judiciary, at the same time as the govt seems to be deliberately ramping up the same tension between the executive and the legislature. A very dangerous strategy which leads to some very dark endings.

The below is nicked from elsewhere but seems to sum it up....

Seems pretty obvious to me that Johnson can’t get a deal at the EU Summit, and has no intention of doing so. (To do so, he would have to have proposals now that could be discussed in advance of the Summit. Indeed, Barnier has no formal remit to negotiate, a point that was conceded in the commons yesterday - so without new negotiations, how can there be a new deal?)

So what then: I assume the strategy is:

1) Return without a deal, for which the EU are blamed

2) Refuse to ask for an extension

3) Lose a very rapid court challenge, and therefore ask for an extension only because the courts mandate it.

4) General Election

Point 2 and 3 are critical. Point 2 is designed to keep soft Brexiters on side: “look, we tried but the devious EU wouldn’t give us a deal”. Point 3 is to play well with the rabid foaming hardcore: Johnson knows he has to ask for an extension, but making it look like the courts forced him into it after he tried not to plays into the victim mentality that is portraying this as an establishment plot to deny the will of the people.

It is devious, ruthless cold calculation; will probably be successful (in winning him a General Election); and will in turn take the country to a very dark place. Everybody who votes Tory at the next election will be complicit in taking us there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, September 27, 2019, 15:07:59
We've all been there, popped to lunch, got over excited and forgotten work still beckons.  Well, in the 90's anyway.  Some of the best ideas come when drunk, they should have let him talk abour Brexit.

Of course.

I'm not at all fussed about some bloke having had a few at lunchtime. I have done so myself on the odd occasion.

What grinds my gears is that Abbott gets pilloried in the press for drinking a can of mojito, while there is no mention of Grove barely being able to stand straight at work.

And the masses lap up whatever they read, seemingly oblivious to the bias and hypocrisy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 27, 2019, 15:29:13
To add to the threats against individual MPs and lawyers, the hard right's latest wheeze seems to be to threaten riots if they don't get their way over Brexit, this apparently includes govt ministers:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/deliver-brexit-or-face-riots-minister-warns-boris-johnson-m7bqr00x3

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/brendan-o-neill-on-politics-live-1-6294304

Project Fear anyone?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, September 27, 2019, 18:02:23
Hmmm...

...would it be wrong to make a marginal assumption that Jo Swinson is eyeballing a position of care-taking PM? She seems hell bent on some kind of power. It's just a hitch. I don't think it will happen but could it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, October 2, 2019, 10:53:09
Meanwhile, Steve Baker, leader of the ERG (the loony fringe of the Tory right that used to be headed by Rees-Mogg before the lunatics took over the asylum and he ended up in govt) thought the best way to reassure us all how great Brexit is going to be would be to use a quote from Satan:

https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1179184311108538369



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Wednesday, October 2, 2019, 18:01:06
I noticed earlier this week that the US created sanctions for 'Interfering in a US Presidential Election'. Amazing timing given what Trump is being accused of!! Good news for Hard Brexiteers too as it is keeping him away from his planned take-down of the WTO.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 3, 2019, 16:04:44
Trump, having denounced as a witchhunt an ongoing impeachment inquiry about whether he encouraged foreign leaders to investigate Joe Biden, has just given a press conference on live TV in which he encouraged the leaders of both Ukraine and China to investigate Joe Biden.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, October 3, 2019, 17:38:00
Everybody who votes Tory at the next election will be complicit in taking us there.

I think that we are already in a very dark place.

There is scarcely a person directly involved in UK politics as a job, or interested in it as a citizen, who seems prepared to acknowledge any validity in any point of view but their own side's.

This is the stuff of Palestine, Northern Ireland in the 70's etc.

One honourable exception last week was Jo Cox's husband.  Difficult to tell what he thought of her memory being invoked in the first place by the Batley MP, but he had to have been utterly disgusted by Johnson's reply.  In the interview I heard the next day, however, although he did firmly make the point that more than anyone it's the PM who should be elevating the tone not lowering it even further, his primary plea was the need for everyone to moderate their own behaviour.

 




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, October 4, 2019, 12:36:52
Boris has now said he will seek a Brexit extension if a deal is not reached by Oct 19


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, October 4, 2019, 12:51:31
he's said he'd send the letter. I'm sure they've found a way to do that and take it back in the same breath


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, October 4, 2019, 12:53:05
What he probably means is something along the lines of: "I think I might have found a way of avoiding it without getting into trouble"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 4, 2019, 13:22:04
Boris has now said he will seek a Brexit extension if a deal is not reached by Oct 19
Has he said that directly? Or are you going on the basis of the assurances made to the Scottish courts by govt lawyers today? Not that it makes much difference. can't trust a word he says anyway


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, October 4, 2019, 14:17:07
UK:  For my going away present, I want a unicorn!
EU:  Unicorns don’t exist, sweetie, but you can have a pony instead.
UK:  I vote against your pony!
EU:  We’ve already discussed this at length, it’s a pony or nothing.
UK:  I vote against your pony!
EU:  Fine, then you get nothing.
UK:  I vote against your nothing!
EU:  You really don’t get it do you?
UK:  I want more time to think about it!
EU:  About the pony or the nothing?
UK:  I want a unicorn!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, October 4, 2019, 14:53:27
UK:  For my going away present, I want a unicorn!
EU:  Unicorns don’t exist, sweetie, but you can have a pony instead.
UK:  I vote against your pony!
EU:  We’ve already discussed this at length, it’s a pony or nothing.
UK:  I vote against your pony!
EU:  Fine, then you get nothing.
UK:  I vote against your nothing!
EU:  You really don’t get it do you?
UK:  I want more time to think about it!
EU:  About the pony or the nothing?
UK:  I want a unicorn!


Winner.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 4, 2019, 15:17:53
Winner.
Whinny


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, October 4, 2019, 16:03:51
Whinny
:D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, October 7, 2019, 13:46:30
A rather unforeseen consequence, Project layby?

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/brexit/no-deal-brexit-rise-dogging-lorry-drivers-government-fears-645186


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 8, 2019, 11:14:02
Here is a rather interesting analysis as to why its all gone wrong for the Brexiteers....

Pt 1 https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1181456550482923520.html

Pt 2 https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1181461884366721024.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, October 8, 2019, 12:47:11
Meanwhile it turns out reducing debt wasn't that important to the Tory Party after all:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49961301

So austerity was just all about punishing the poor after all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, October 9, 2019, 11:18:30
Desperate:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1181692299828482049


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, October 9, 2019, 11:22:50
Load of bollocks, surely? The FTPA would've replaced any dissolution legislation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 9, 2019, 12:14:26
Load of bollocks, surely? The FTPA would've replaced any dissolution legislation.

Sadly the Lascelles Principles have nothing to do with the Newcastle centre half. This is being lapped up by the faithful and reported by then propagandists despite a 2 min google revealing that they:

a) don't exist any more as overruled by the FTPA;
b) wouldn't apply to this situation if they did exist; and
c) wouldn't help Johnson if they did apply.

Wonder what 'Classic Dom' tomorrow will bring?

In other news its being suggested that should Johnson go to an election with a manifesto promoting no deal its looking like 5 cabinet ministers (including your lad Buckland) and around 50 Tory MP's could resign.

In shocking news its been revealed that one does not require 34 days to prepare for a Queens Speech instead one can be prepared in 5 days, who would have thunk it!

But what is going to happen, Johnson doesn't hold anything like a majority so the chances of such a speech passing are quite slender, add to the fact that its basically going to be Brenda presenting a Conservative Party Political Broadcast for the forthcoming election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, October 9, 2019, 12:30:28
Load of bollocks, surely? The FTPA would've replaced any dissolution legislation.
Yes it's drivel, like all the other drivel coming out of "No 10 sources" (Cummings). But it's all helping to rile up the cannon fodder for further assaults on what used to pass for a UK constitution. One thing that has to come out of all this mess is getting rid of this ridiculous arcane "unwritten constitution" bollocks and replacing it with a proper legal constitution fit for a modern democracy. Not sure where that would leave the monarchy, mind. But Johnson and Co don't seem to care what kind of collateral damage their assault on the constitution causes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 9, 2019, 14:11:35
BTW I didn't know that Dale Vince was heavily involved in the case in Scotland to ensure that Johnson actually adheres to the law of the Benn Act.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir red ken on Thursday, October 10, 2019, 13:10:57
BTW I didn't know that Dale Vince was heavily involved in the case in Scotland to ensure that Johnson actually adheres to the law of the Benn Act.

What about respecting the law which was passed by a majority in parliment. The bill became law as an Act on 26 June 2018. Section 1 states that the European Communities Act 1972 is repealed on exit day. It was law that we left the eussr in March of this year. Are some laws absolute and others ignored? Tereason May broke the law not leaving in March 2019 when's her court case.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, October 10, 2019, 13:23:33
Tereason May

Another one for the collection


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 10, 2019, 13:36:23
What about respecting the law which was passed by a majority in parliment. The bill became law as an Act on 26 June 2018. Section 1 states that the European Communities Act 1972 is repealed on exit day. It was law that we left the eussr in March of this year. Are some laws absolute and others ignored? Tereason May broke the law not leaving in March 2019 when's her court case.

I really am struggling to make head nor tail of this, I know English isn't your first language but please at least give us a chance?

Reading enormously between the lines, I assume that you are referring to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act, however as we have not actually exited yet, mainly because of your buddies in the ERG, I am not sure what you are getting at?

BTW have you been ringing in to LBC? https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-corrects-brexiters-claims-one-by-one/





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, October 10, 2019, 14:33:54
Ohhh he's back. Old Yellow Pants, aka Sir Dread Ken  ::)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Thursday, October 10, 2019, 14:59:41
What about respecting the law which was passed by a majority in parliment. The bill became law as an Act on 26 June 2018. Section 1 states that the European Communities Act 1972 is repealed on exit day. It was law that we left the eussr in March of this year. Are some laws absolute and others ignored? Tereason May broke the law not leaving in March 2019 when's her court case.

The March 31st exit day was cancelled by the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (Exit Day) (Amendment) Regulations 2019, which passed the Commons by a majority of 336. So you'll be pleased to know that no law was broken. The October 31st exit day will be extended by the Commons in the same way.

Source: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/brexit/the-eu/eu-exit-day-is-changed-in-uk-law/ (https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/brexit/the-eu/eu-exit-day-is-changed-in-uk-law/)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Thursday, October 10, 2019, 17:14:13
Farage and the Brexit Party protecting their paymasters again: they've voted against stronger EU measures aimed at countering “highly dangerous” Russian disinformation.
Don't bite the hand that feeds you... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/10/brexit-party-meps-vote-against-measure-to-combat-russian-propaganda?CMP=share_btn_tw (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/10/brexit-party-meps-vote-against-measure-to-combat-russian-propaganda?CMP=share_btn_tw)




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, October 15, 2019, 08:27:26
Even by the very low standards set at the Home Office since Teresa May's "hostile environment" led to the Windrush scandal, inflitrating safe spaces for rough sleepers to try and deport the homeless is pretty fucking despicable:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/15/home-office-infiltrating-safe-havens-to-deport-rough-sleepers


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 15, 2019, 08:53:24
Even by the very low standards set at the Home Office since Teresa May's "hostile environment" led to the Windrush scandal, inflitrating safe spaces for rough sleepers to try and deport the homeless is pretty fucking despicable:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/15/home-office-infiltrating-safe-havens-to-deport-rough-sleepers

Off the back of appearing to ban the right to protest and also potentially disenfranchising part of the electorate.

They are having a good week.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, October 15, 2019, 09:04:38
Off the back of appearing to ban the right to protest and also potentially disenfranchising part of the electorate.

They are having a good week.
Spacey put it best:

Quote from: SpaceyOnTwitter
All this fuss about voter ID. We all have to show a passport when we go on wine tours of Tuscany!

https://twitter.com/Jason_Spacey/status/1183994232316542976


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 15, 2019, 09:44:01
Spacey put it best:

https://twitter.com/Jason_Spacey/status/1183994232316542976

Indeed, and it would not be a problem if the country had compulsory ID, however as we don't it appears that the basic requirement to vote will be photo ID which essentially means passport or driving licence.

I am sure its entirely coincidental that those who are not well off enough/healthy enough to hold such documents tend not to vote for the present governing body who are proposing the change?

Lets be honest its irrelevant anyway, the QS is not likely to pass, let alone a budget.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, October 15, 2019, 10:33:25
Off the back of appearing to ban the right to protest and also potentially disenfranchising part of the electorate.

They are having a good week.

It would be nice if those fuckers in Parliament started by giving voting rights back to some UK nationals.  >:(


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Tuesday, October 15, 2019, 11:32:53
It would be nice if those fuckers in Parliament started by giving voting rights back to some UK nationals.  >:(
Seconded.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, October 15, 2019, 17:49:32
however as we have not actually exited yet, mainly because of your buddies in the ERG

To be fair, the May deal was also blocked by a large number of remainers who have continually professed to fully respect the referendum decision whilst voting against any deal (or no deal) put in front of them.  Not something I disagree with, just saying.

If Boris does manage to cobble together a deal with the EU it will be interesting to see what it looks like.  Based on the assumption that he will have done whatever he believes is in the best interests of B Johnson Esq,  I presume he will have capitulated as much as he needs to get a deal with the EU.  

Assuming that it ties us much closer to the EU going forward, it will be interesting to see whether the ERG will hold their nerve and vote against it.  The Lib Dems, having nailed their colours to the mast, will vote against any deal as will the SNP on the basis that they don't fear any voter backlash in Scotland.  God knows what the DUP will do, something stupid and antagonistic presumably.  The remainder of the Tory party will vote for it; if they can stomach Boris they can stomach anything.

Rather more difficult for the Labour Party.  Having focussed on the "we won't screw the people of this country by allowing a disastrous no deal" line they run a huge potential electoral liability if they now vote down a deal.  Effectively they will look like a gutless and dishonest version of the Lib Dems.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 16, 2019, 08:06:27

If Boris does manage to cobble together a deal with the EU it will be interesting to see what it looks like.  Based on the assumption that he will have done whatever he believes is in the best interests of B Johnson Esq,  I presume he will have capitulated as much as he needs to get a deal with the EU. 

If reports are to be believed its looking like a customs border in the Irish Sea. Francois was not looking very happy after his meeting with Johnson yesterday (although that might just have been due to their being foreign food on the buffet or Johnson refusing to acknowledge his leading role in winning the Battle of Bosworth Field) whilst IDS apparently 'exploded'.


Assuming that it ties us much closer to the EU going forward, it will be interesting to see whether the ERG will hold their nerve and vote against it. 

I suspect they won't as its becoming clearer that its essentially Johnson's deal or no Brexit, considering the way they suddenly swung behind Mays deal (which amusingly now looks like a better deal for them)when in the same situation I imagine same will happen again.


God knows what the DUP will do, something stupid and antagonistic presumably. 

Its being reported that the bribe to the DUP now being prepared by the present government makes Mays £1bn look like petty cash. If this goes through, kudos to whoever predicted the DUP would use a rare moment of influence in govt to secure a border between GB and Northern Ireland.

Rather more difficult for the Labour Party.  Having focussed on the "we won't screw the people of this country by allowing a disastrous no deal" line they run a huge potential electoral liability if they now vote down a deal.  Effectively they will look like a gutless and dishonest version of the Lib Dems.


I think the honest answer is no idea regarding Labour, Corbyn wants out but now seems to see it could be electoral suicide to openly support such a dreadful deal (although that rather falls into the trap of assuming he could win any sort of election), there are the Labour MP's in leave seats who would support just about anything to save their seats (Flint being the most vocal example), but then you have Starmers lot?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, October 16, 2019, 09:21:03
IDS apparently 'exploded'.
If only.

It must have come as a huge surprise to the ERG that Johnson's sold them down the river at the first hint of pressure, given his previous reputation for integrity and steadfast adherence to principles.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 16, 2019, 10:06:53
If reports are to be believed its looking like a customs border in the Irish Sea.

This is something which has puzzled me for the last 3 years.... in my minds eye, I see something like NSea oil rigs, that goods and people will pass through on the way to the EU westwards to be checked.  I'm sure it's not though.... although Johnson does want to build a bridge from Calderwood country to Larne  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, October 16, 2019, 10:21:29
presumably the ports serving between Britain and N Ireland will be the customs points


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 16, 2019, 10:30:57
presumably the ports serving between Britain and N Ireland will be the customs points

I guess something like that... presumably it removes the need for customs posts between RoI and NI, but not for passport checks between RoI and GB.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 16, 2019, 10:53:54
although Johnson does want to build a bridge from Calderwood country to Larne  :hmmm:

The bridge that would have to be enormous to allow shipping to pass underneath it, being built over the Beaufort Dyke which is full of a million+ tons of discarded  munitions- including six-inch shells filled with phosgene gas.

What could possibly go wrong......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 16, 2019, 11:51:05
I guess something like that... presumably it removes the need for customs posts between RoI and NI, but not for passport checks between RoI and GB.

(https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72305359_2777721132286941_2948953368959123456_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_oc=AQkwKIUmHAZ3GpDJiqIkrIbyKuSz8XZuBrADYPB4fHRup9eVk_elkfg_G0W-CHGdHiY&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-1.fna&oh=b1ac538e0240084787e289c8c466a022&oe=5E2CF2A1)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 08:03:58
DUP ("Never. Never. Never!") appearing to be more consistent than Bojo.

Brexit resembling an interminable game of Snakes and Ladders


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 08:11:48
DUP ("Never. Never. Never!") appearing to be more consistent than Bojo.
To be fair, I've used random number generators that are more consistent than Johnson.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 11:21:57
So Johnson's new deal appears to be exactly the same as May's deal that the "Spartans" couldn't possibly vote for, including the backstop, with two key differences:
1) The DUP get to veto it every four years if things aren't to their liking (and fuck knows what happens then)
2) Whereas May had a slender majority reliant on the DUP and still didn't get it through parliament, Johnson has blown his majority by expelling 21 Tory MPs who's votes he's now going to need. As well as the DUP etc etc
Hmm


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 11:24:42
https://www.facebook.com/swindonadvertiser/posts/2408740215846563

This kind of thing drives me mad.

Not the article itself, not that some are pro-brexit, and not even that some want it at any cost. (although the latter really does grate)

What really drives me mad is the accusations in the FB comments that this report is just 'project fear', and the sheer number of 'laughing' smilies at the article because, apparently, it's all just made up to put people off Brexit.

This is despite it being a government report. From the VERY SAME government that is PRO brexit.

What a time to be alive.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 11:29:36
I liked the "more lies from LEFT-WING Adver" bit :) Yeah, it's basically the Morning Star with a slight Wiltshire burr


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 11:32:01
I’m sure Corbyn’s mob will put paid to this deal getting through but if the impossible does happen then I hope the men in white coats are stationed near to the PaulD household as the meltdown will be something else  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 13:25:13
Juncker says there will be no extension, regardless of whether or not a deal has been agreed.

I'm glad I'm not over there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 13:39:35
Juncker says there will be no extension, regardless of whether or not a deal has been agreed.

I'm glad I'm not over there.

Setting aside the fact that such an extension is not in his gift, its actually not what he said.

He's very deliberately not ruling out an extension. He's saying we don't need one. Trying to be as helpful as possible to Johnson without tying EU hands if the vote doesn't get through.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 13:52:57
Setting aside the fact that such an extension is not in his gift, its actually not what he said.

He's very deliberately not ruling out an extension. He's saying we don't need one. Trying to be as helpful as possible to Johnson without tying EU hands if the vote doesn't get through.

Yeah, I see that now. Certain members of the press were not being entirely honest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 14:02:54
Yeah, I see that now. Certain members of the press were not being entirely honest.
Or just diving in with a knee-jerk reaction before they'd fully understood what was actually being said? Love the use of the word "prolongation" though :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 14:03:09
Setting aside the fact that such an extension is not in his gift, its actually not what he said.

He's very deliberately not ruling out an extension. He's saying we don't need one. Trying to be as helpful as possible to Johnson without tying EU hands if the vote doesn't get through.

It's difficult to be absolutely certain what he meant but I think you are spot on and so do all the commentators I've read.  Makes sense.

If parliament votes for the deal then fine from EU standpoint.

If parliament votes down the deal but votes for a second referendum then some in the EU might sigh but they will surely allow extension.  Don't believe Macron would seek to block it notwithstanding his classic Gallic posturing.

Is it possible that parliament could vote against the deal and against a second referendum?  I think EU would then refuse to extend.  And who could blame them.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 14:04:58
Or just diving in with a knee-jerk reaction before they'd fully understood what was actually being said? Love the use of the word "prolongation" though :)

I think you're being a bit unfair on Flashheart here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 14:11:21
I think you're being a bit unfair on Flashheart here.
:D I was trying to be slightly more fair to some of the instant commenters in the media - ie they're not lying just don't know what they're talking about. BBC, I'm looking at you :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dogs on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 14:17:14
Hopefully this deal goes through and we can then move on to the next 3 or 4 years of trade talks!

If I was Corbyn I'd accept the deal and then once an election is called, if the PLP wishes to campaign to rejoin at the earliest opportunity.

I have a feeling opposing this deal and an election will massively backfire on Labour and the Lib Dems and could result in a fairly large Tory majority and the hardest form of Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 15:05:26
Brokenshire on the BBC right now with his Johnson firmly within the depths of Johnson's anus. Lauding him as some kind of miracle worker.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 15:10:43
Brokenshire on the BBC right now with his Johnson firmly within the depths of Johnson's anus. Lauding him as some kind of miracle worker.
Really hoping that's metaphorical.
This deal is basically the same deal as May's (with some tweaks), which Johnson felt was such a betrayal of Brexit that he resigned from the cabinet over it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 15:13:24
Even I could make a deal the EU would agree to.

Whether or not it would be a deal other people (parliament) will vote for is another matter entirely.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 15:19:28
Really hoping that's metaphorical.
This deal is basically the same deal as May's (with some tweaks), which Johnson felt was such a betrayal of Brexit that he resigned from the cabinet over it.

Amusingly (if it wasn't so shit for the country) the deal is very similar to what the EU wanted initially, Johnson has basically caved on just about everything yet is being lauded as some manner of deal maker!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 15:35:59
Add into the mix the media BBC are misleading the public, in terms of Juncker's comments on the 'deal'. Although in essence he's just saying UK Parliament, over to you.

I also liked how Juncker was dumbing the press down as he got a final say in "I'm happy about a deal but not happy about Brexit."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 15:42:35
"The likelihood of Boris Johnson's deal passing in Parliament is 50/50, says Conservative MP Stephen Crabb."

No shit Sherlock


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 15:47:45
This might be interesting:

https://waitingfortax.com/2019/09/15/the-flaw-in-the-benn-act/

TLDR: Brexiteers don't really want this deal, but are using it as a ruse to get round the Benn Act. If the ERG, DUP and sufficient ex-Tories and Leave minded Labour MPs vote for the deal on Saturday, then the govt have fulfilled the provisions of the Benn Act. But the Withdrawal Act requires further stages to ratify the deal. If the govt refuse to put those before parliament, then we leave with a de facto No Deal on Oct 31st. (That might be a bad summary, if so blame me, not the author)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 15:48:07
No shit Sherlock
Isn't that the kid in Hull?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 16:11:39
Isn't that the kid in Hull?

No. His name is, Will Shit Sherlock. Easy make to mistake.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Hitchinred on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 16:54:31
Mix of politics and STFC related football. First time JAF has appeared on my twitter feed but love all the STFC around his account.
https://twitter.com/janaagefjortoft/status/1184858400154357760?s=21


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 16:58:29
To give Boris due credit (appreciate I may already have lost all readers) a lot of his opponents questioned his sincerity in genuinely wanting a deal.  Clearly he did.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 20:15:16
To give Boris due credit (appreciate I may already have lost all readers) a lot of his opponents questioned his sincerity in genuinely wanting a deal.  Clearly he did.
Unless Maugham is correct in the article I cited above and it's just an attempt to outflank the Benn Act? Who knows any more what any of them are up to? I'll give Johnson this though, he's achieved one of his objectives. He's rendered Farage irrelevant which is what he was elected leader of the Tory Party to do


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 21:01:20
Looking forward to the remainer MP’s and the faux leave MP’s (AKA Benn bill supporters) rejecting this bill for the lovely EU to reject another extension. Will piss myself laughing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 21:11:23
Looking forward to the remainer MP’s and the faux leave MP’s (AKA Benn bill supporters) rejecting this bill for the lovely EU to reject another extension. Will piss myself laughing.

What, because you'll get a No Deal Brexit? Yeah. Really worth wanking yourself silly over. Nobber.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 22:13:59
What, because you'll get a No Deal Brexit? Yeah. Really worth wanking yourself silly over. Nobber.

Ha ha ha ha. No, I Won’t get a no deal Brexit, YOU WILL. And YOU call me a nobber?!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 23:49:06
Ha ha ha ha. No, I Won’t get a no deal Brexit, YOU WILL. And YOU call me a nobber?!


Why won't you, Nobber?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, October 17, 2019, 23:52:25
'...when those guns start shooting, they - tends to do things.'

 Trump on Turkey/Syria. Strange he doesn't take the same view on guns in his own country. :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, October 18, 2019, 05:05:52

Why won't you, Nobber?


Please, please call me a nobber some more it is very, very funny. Childish but funny.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 18, 2019, 10:21:19
Please, please call me a nobber some more it is very, very funny. Childish but funny.

You still haven't advvised why a no deal brexit will apparently not affect you, please advise?

BTW Merkel has confirmed that in her opinion an extension is inevitable if Parliament vote things down tomorrow and unlike JCJ she actually has a say in the matter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 18, 2019, 11:01:27
All of the potential outcomes from here seem pretty repellent:

1) No Deal - clearly a disaster
2) Johnson's reheated Teresa May Deal - not a lot better
3) GE + Revoke A50 - wildly unlikely and hugely divisive
4) 2nd referendum - also very divisive

Of the four options above, Brexit with the reheated May deal and a 2nd referendum seem the least worst options to me (and I've always said I'm against a 2nd referendum) but only in the sense of "Would you rather have your dick stapled to the table or put through a meat grinder?". What a fucking mess. Cameron you absolute fucking twat


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, October 18, 2019, 12:57:23
To give Boris due credit (appreciate I may already have lost all readers) a lot of his opponents questioned his sincerity in genuinely wanting a deal.  Clearly he did.
I guess someone has to give credit to Johnson for his sincerity   :eek:

Johnson committed to leaving by 31 October.  With or without a deal.

We cannot know if he was ever sincere about a deal.

We have the subsequent Benn Act to thank for having taken away Johnson's No Deal option.

Leaving him having to achieve a deal.  Or death in a ditch.

In those circumstances, taking No Deal off the table made a Deal more likely rather than less likely.  IMO.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 18, 2019, 14:08:33
I guess someone has to give credit to Johnson for his sincerity   :eek:

Johnson committed to leaving by 31 October.  With or without a deal.

We cannot know if he was ever sincere about a deal.

We have the subsequent Benn Act to thank for having taken away Johnson's No Deal option.

Leaving him having to achieve a deal.  Or death in a ditch.

In those circumstances, taking No Deal off the table made a Deal more likely rather than less likely.  IMO.

Sincerity.....  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Gove is going around telling ERG nutjobs that this is the best chance they will get as it requires a trade deal by December 2020 which is never going to happen and has a clause that at that date if no trade deal is agreed we can go with no deal.

He is simultaneously telling more moderate Tories to vote for it as its this or no deal.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHKjaXWX0AE5c9C?format=jpg&name=large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, October 18, 2019, 14:12:41
definitely not getting one by December 2010!

slimey Tory fucks


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 18, 2019, 14:22:15
definitely not getting one by December 2010!

slimey Tory fucks

Typo corrected!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 18, 2019, 15:00:25
Gove is going around telling ERG nutjobs that this is the best chance they will get as it requires a trade deal by December 2020 which is never going to happen and has a clause that at that date if no trade deal is agreed we can go with no deal.
This was confirmed by John Baron (one of said nutjobs) on Radio 4 this morning. So it's not Johnson's deal or no deal, it's no deal now or no deal next year. Great.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Friday, October 18, 2019, 15:37:08
I wouldn’t count your chickens just yet - the protests outside parliament tomorrow could change things  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, October 18, 2019, 15:43:42
Gove is going around telling ERG nutjobs that this is the best chance they will get as it requires a trade deal by December 2020 which is never going to happen and has a clause that at that date if no trade deal is agreed we can go with no deal.

He is simultaneously telling more moderate Tories to vote for it as its this or no deal.

Which might highlight the level of shithousery to others that are on the fence, encouraging them to vote it down?

This lot has a tendency of seeing their cunning plans backfire on them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, October 18, 2019, 16:36:05
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-50088993

So, are the courts still biased?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Tuesday, October 22, 2019, 14:00:04
MPs had more time to debate the Wild Animals in Circuses Act (affecting 19 animals) than they will to decide the future of 65 million people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, October 22, 2019, 14:56:14
Johnson now threatening to scrap the bill all together if MPs insist on trying to actually scrutinise it (as is their job). What a shame he wasted all that parliamentary time on proroguing for a Queen's Speech that was so so important but that he's now forgotten about.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Tuesday, October 22, 2019, 15:05:45
But opposition MPs called the threat to pull the bill "childish blackmail".

Hit the nail on the head


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, October 22, 2019, 15:10:11
I think it'll go through.

I think some doubting Tories will be worried a remainer backlash (and Labour backing a confirmatory referendum) in a GE will deprive them of getting past the post.

I think some Labour  MPs will dread Corbyn leading them into GE on that ticket (i.e. the norther leave area MPs).

So it'll go through.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, October 22, 2019, 15:24:25
But opposition MPs called the threat to pull the bill "childish blackmail".

Hit the nail on the head
(https://www.pirateperfection.com/gallery/image/1456-bat-and-ball-going-home/?do=download)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, October 22, 2019, 15:25:55
I think it'll go through.

I think some doubting Tories will be worried a remainer backlash (and Labour backing a confirmatory referendum) in a GE will deprive them of getting past the post.

I think some Labour  MPs will dread Corbyn leading them into GE on that ticket (i.e. the norther leave area MPs).

So it'll go through.
I think you're right as to why it might (i.e. your reasons given) but don't think it can go through unamended as too many MPs will be worried about the No Deal trapdoor. That will need removing before the doubters on both sides sign up to it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, October 22, 2019, 15:36:24
I hope so


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 06:24:42
So, the end game looks like being a GE. Dreadful idea, I reckon.

If you’re a Labour voter who wishes to leave you’ll have to vote Tory.

If you’re a Tory voter who wishes to remain it’s voting Labour.

Who wants to vote for a party whose manifesto - stripped of Brexit - is the complete opposite of what you’d usually vote for.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 07:39:18
I agree. How can anyone think that a GE first will be about anything other than Brexit. How can the parties set out an agenda to sort out the post brexit ( in or out) mess without knowing where we are going to be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 07:43:44
I want to remain via ref #2, but don't want Corbyn as PM.

Given its a Tory v Labour fight in Swindon North where does that leave me?

I bet I'm not alone. That's good for Boris...



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 08:42:04
I want to remain via ref #2, but don't want Corbyn as PM.

Given its a Tory v Labour fight in Swindon North where does that leave me?

I bet I'm not alone. That's good for Boris...

Constituency politics really does throw up these oddities, it's part of the reason why national opinion polls are... not that helpful in establishing the potential end result of an election.

Fwiw, I live in Islington North where 73% of the vote at the last election went to one J Corbyn Esq. (to quote the Leader of the House), a majority of nearly 35,000. Don't think my opinion on any of these matters is likely to have much effect either...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 08:44:48
I’ll stick this here. Anywhere is enough to make you feel sick to your stomach.

39 Bulgarians found dead in the back of a lorry in Essex

Jesus Christ


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 08:44:53
my point is internal politics and brexit should be separated


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 09:11:46
I want to remain via ref #2, but don't want Corbyn as PM.

Given its a Tory v Labour fight in Swindon North where does that leave me?

I bet I'm not alone. That's good for Boris...


Just shows how unfit for purpose our current political system is.

Alarmingly, from the debate yesterday it seems that Johnson either, if you're being kind, flat out doesn't understand the Irish frontstop he's negotiated or has descended to Trumpian levels of flat-out lying about it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 12:49:03
Fwiw, I live in Islington North where 73% of the vote at the last election went to one J Corbyn Esq. (to quote the Leader of the House), a majority of nearly 35,000. Don't think my opinion on any of these matters is likely to have much effect either...

Or mine.  My constituency was created in 2018.  And in the 101 years since then, there have been 29 General Elections and 6 MPs...every one of them a Tory.  Voting, for me, is nothing more than a protest that no-one will hear.  I might as well stay at home.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 15:41:16
I think you mean 1918 not 2018!

I take your point, but if you take that to it's logical conclusion then effectively no individual vote has any relevance.  I think that the last tie in a parliamentary constituency was 1886 and not sure that there have been any margins less than 2 since then.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 16:26:09
I stand corrected!  Thanks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 17:43:53
Or mine.  My constituency was created in 2018.  And in the 101 years since then, there have been 29 General Elections and 6 MPs...every one of them a Tory.  Voting, for me, is nothing more than a protest that no-one will hear.  I might as well stay at home.

Some women as property holders would have had a vote for the 1st time in 1918, but all women didn't get a say until 1928. I always think of those in the past who fought for the opportunities we now take for granted. Our current democracy may be clunky and unfit for the times, but then it is up to us, like those in the past to do something about it.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 24, 2019, 09:14:34
Ooops:

https://www.sajidjavid.com/news/sajid-javid-only-thing-leaving-eu-guarantees-lost-decade-british-business


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, October 24, 2019, 10:08:44
Ooops:

https://www.sajidjavid.com/news/sajid-javid-only-thing-leaving-eu-guarantees-lost-decade-british-business

As Johnson said "fuck business"

What he in fact meant was fuck the widget makers, who mainly trade within the single market.... the right wingers eyes are on financial gains to be made by hedge funds and turning UK an off shore tax haven.  This will be facilitated by a reduction in worker's rights, and environmental standards.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 24, 2019, 10:18:56
As Johnson said "fuck business"

What he in fact meant was fuck the widget makers, who mainly trade within the single market.... the right wingers eyes are on financial gains to be made by hedge funds and turning UK an off shore tax haven.  This will be facilitated by a reduction in worker's rights, and environmental standards.
It's surely just a coincidence that Rees Mogg is an advocate of "disaster capitalism", makes a lot of his private income from a hedge fund that's repeatedly shorted the pound in the lead-up to the various Brexit deadlines, and that Johnson's leadership bid was mainly financed by hedge fund billionaires. But I'm sure they'll look to govern in the best way they possibly can for the whole country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, October 24, 2019, 11:53:34
No love for Gideon but he is funny on Twitter...

https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1187313091815628805


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 24, 2019, 12:33:43
No love for Gideon but he is funny on Twitter...

https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1187313091815628805
You might like one of the replies:

https://twitter.com/SpillerOfTea/status/1187315017470922752


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 24, 2019, 12:41:56
Really good piece on how Johnson and Cummings are subverting democracy with Trump-style fake news, with the active connivance (or possibly helpful ignorance in the case of the BBC) of much of the press. Whichever side of the political divide you are on, this is important as a free and impartial press is one of the key pillars of a democracy. Even if you quite like Johnson and the way Cummings is manipulating the press for him in this way, you might not be so enamoured when it's Corbyn and Seamus Milne doing it. Or Farage and Banks. Or any of the horrors who haven't yet surfaced.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/british-journalists-have-become-part-of-johnsons-fake-news-machine/?fbclid=IwAR1LQfC9PGgE2x4gl5_v6rqGj1W-srB9L5q6Sa63gy-LQP0MVszcxTtSlpM


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 24, 2019, 12:52:47
Whichever side of the political divide you are on, this is important as a free and impartial press is one of the key pillars of a democracy.

Have they ever been impartial?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 24, 2019, 13:22:45
Have they ever been impartial?
Not fully no. But the article sets out the way that we now have the media being used to disseminate govt propaganda unchecked and unattributed. I'm not going to try and TLDR the author's well-written and well-argued discussion as to why this is a new threat and a bigger threat to democracy than old-fashioned newspaper bias as he puts it far better than I can summarise. It's worth taking 5 minutes to read.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, October 24, 2019, 18:45:32
Not sure how easy it is to make comparisons between different eras but Blair with Alastair Campbell seemed to introduce "spin" in a very controlled and deceitful manner - and succeeded in getting into bed with Murdoch in an era when the Sun could claim, without much irony, that "it was the Sun wot won it".

I'm a little hazy about facts, I admit, but I would imagine that there would have been a time when privileged journalists would be Chang-style "itk" but withhold certain info from the Plebs with stiff upper lip discretion.  Look at the Keeler and Profumo era and how the ruling class looked after its own.

And now we seem to be in an era of disseminating false news,  sometimes ridiculously false through targeted Facebook claims in manners where it is not easily discernible at all whom is the true author (eg Putin is obviously just one player).  And we, HYPO-critically but UN-critically believe or profess to believe the claims that support "our side".

It's sort of decadent and lacking in respect.

But oddly enough that's how I behave every Saturday watching the Town.  Acting outraged and shouting "Off! Off! Off!" at incidents I probably missed or even thought were not so bad.  Just to try and get my side an advantage, even if undeserved.  

Saturdays are a bit of a larf though.  Current lying is, imo, not making for a very nice or even intelligent society.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, October 24, 2019, 19:03:43
Who knows what happens next but if opposition parties (and Labour in particular) have got anything about them at all they will make the Tory's go into a General Election campaigning Johnson's deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, October 24, 2019, 19:25:04
Have they ever been impartial?

Probably not, though it does depend on who is paying the piper.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, October 24, 2019, 19:56:35
Not sure how easy it is to make comparisons between different eras but Blair with Alastair Campbell seemed to introduce "spin" in a very controlled and deceitful manner - and succeeded in getting into bed with Murdoch in an era when the Sun could claim, without much irony, that "it was the Sun wot won it".

I'm a little hazy about facts, I admit, but I would imagine that there would have been a time when privileged journalists would be Chang-style "itk" but withhold certain info from the Plebs with stiff upper lip discretion.  Look at the Keeler and Profumo era and how the ruling class looked after its own.

And now we seem to be in an era of disseminating false news,  sometimes ridiculously false through targeted Facebook claims in manners where it is not easily discernible at all whom is the true author (eg Putin is obviously just one player).  And we, HYPO-critically but UN-critically believe or profess to believe the claims that support "our side".

It's sort of decadent and lacking in respect.

But oddly enough that's how I behave every Saturday watching the Town.  Acting outraged and shouting "Off! Off! Off!" at incidents I probably missed or even thought were not so bad.  Just to try and get my side an advantage, even if undeserved.  

Saturdays are a bit of a larf though.  Current lying is, imo, not making for a very nice or even intelligent society.

An interesting analysis, but the undermining of radical dissension by agents of the ruling classes has a long and not very distinguished history.  Something like the Zinoviev letter published by The Mail, being a classic example. Made up to undermine the Labour Party, just before the 24 election, nothing has changed.

This dirty trick was at the behest of the secret services... the mention you made of Profumo was because there were powers who didn't want Wilson... too left wing. Wilson's Labour government kept well away from Vietnam, unusual for HMG.

There has been rumours of a military coup against Wilson's government... with connivance from the The Times

Quote
A later memoir by Harold Evans, former Times and Sunday Times editor, observed that the Times had egged on King's plans for a coup:

    Rees-Mogg's Times backed the Conservative Party in every general election, but it periodically expressed yearnings for a coalition of the right-centre. In the late 1960s it encouraged Cecil King's notion of a coup against Harold Wilson's Labour Government in favour of a government of business leaders led by Lord Robens.

 Recognise a name there.... thought so.

 Dating back 200 years to the time of Peterloo, the government's favoured tactic was agent provocateur.... get your stooges to whip up the masses and then pick a few off for execution or transportation.  In the 70's we had the likes of Joe Gormley and Ray Buckton, leaders of the NUM and ASLEF on the payroll of the Special Branch.

GCHQ is massive, you don't hear about too much austerity going their way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, October 25, 2019, 08:29:54
Interesting further perspectives there.  

I had never heard of the Zinoviev letter (1924 MI6 forgery linking Labour Govt. in Soviet plot to foment unrest in UK) splashed by the Daily Mail 4 days before a GE.   That was as "fake" as "fake news" can be.

Why are people so gullible?  I am a natural sceptic but I can hardly claim to have gone through life without having been duped a number of times myself.

With the print media (and also to some degree, online) I suspect there is a tendency to more readily believe the written word over the spoken word.  

Today we seem to have a 24/7 splurge of stories and claims and so much distraction that we have no time to ascertain the messenger or critically evaluate its veracity.  The opposite almost of subliminal advertising.

PS  Enjoyed your first hand account of the Peterloo massacre  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 25, 2019, 10:09:14
Jesus, what have we become?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/24/majority-of-voters-think-violence-against-mps-is-price-worth-paying-for-brexit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Friday, October 25, 2019, 10:09:36
Jesus, what have we become?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/24/majority-of-voters-think-violence-against-mps-is-price-worth-paying-for-brexit
I saw this earlier, its utterly shocking.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 25, 2019, 10:15:53
I saw this earlier, its utterly shocking.
That said, I am hoping the one promise that Johnson keeps is his "dead in a ditch" pledge #ditchMeansDitch :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, October 25, 2019, 10:33:59
Except the poll questions were very much loaded, and the conclusion (deliberately?) misinterpreted.

(https://i.imgur.com/MFTgcRe.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 25, 2019, 11:11:03
Except the poll questions were very much loaded, and the conclusion (deliberately?) misinterpreted.

(https://i.imgur.com/MFTgcRe.png)
Maybe I'm being dim, but I don't see that as being especially loaded is it? I can see that the conclusions might have been misreported, mind


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, October 25, 2019, 11:16:55
It's a false dichotomy (excluding the more extreme option). Those taking part are only given the option of remaining (which many don't want) - or leaving with violence (which many don't want)

What about also asking: "I want to leave/remain and don't want violence". The results would likely have been rather different then.

*Edit. I should have said the poll overall is loaded rather than the specific questions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 25, 2019, 11:38:10
It's a false dichotomy (excluding the more extreme option). Those taking part are only given the option of remaining (which many don't want) - or leaving with violence (which many don't want)

What about also asking: "I want to leave and don't want violence". The results would likely have been rather different then.

*Edit. I should have said the poll overall is loaded rather than the specific questions.
Cheers. I was, as suspected, being dim. Thanks for taking the time to explain. It's been a long week.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, October 25, 2019, 11:41:25
The left-leaning rags are often just as guilty of deliberate misdirection as the others; they just tend to be more subtle about it. (And less harmful).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, October 25, 2019, 15:05:23
This is why I avoid the Guardian as much as the Mail.  It's just as deceitful but with the added irritation of an arrogant delusion that they invariably occupy the moral high ground.

Were these the questions specifically for Leave voters?  I assume Remain voters must have had a different set as otherwise they would overwhelmingly default to Option 3 and could not have produced a score of 53% prepared to risk violence.

On a not exactly humorous aside, I'd be fascinated to know how many people voted for violence against MPs regardless of Brexit.  Jesus, such a question wouldn't even have been dreamt up a few years ago.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, October 25, 2019, 15:37:43

Were these the questions specifically for Leave voters?  

It looks that way to me.

That second question also looks a tad shifty to me. "I see it as a risk but it's worth it to take back control"

The language in the latter part looks unnecessary. Why not just say "to leave the EU", or similar? The writers would know that 'taking back control' is a popular sentiment and it looks to me as though they've played on that to compel people to choose the 2nd option in the absence of a forth, more reasonable option. It's evocative, yet it seems no attempt has been made to make the 3rd option more appealing.

And these cunts will know exactly what they are doing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, October 25, 2019, 16:02:19
You're right.  It forces a leave voter to chose between the possibility of violence and the certainty (as they would see it) of a powerless country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, October 25, 2019, 16:28:25
This is why I avoid the Guardian as much as the Mail. 

Bear in mind relative to Flasher's comment that the Guardian isn't a left wing paper.  It likes to think of itself as centrist and as such provides a platform for writers of different types...eg George Monbiot, and Owen Jones who might be called left wing and Simon Jenkins and Matthew d' Ancona... Tories

Dear old Polly Toynbee was complicit in the SDP horror which helped usher in Thatcherism.

The moral high ground thing comes because it's then up to the reader to decide based on CP Scott's "Comment is free but facts are sacred" dictum.

This means it doesn't need to make shit up, or toe the editorial line of its tax avoiding non dom owners.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, October 25, 2019, 17:49:27
That's more because the idea of left and right seems like it has shifted.
 
I think the Guardian would be described as largely a Progressive, or modern day use of Liberal, leaning newspaper.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, October 25, 2019, 18:23:52
That's more because the idea of left and right seems like it has shifted.
 
I think the Guardian would be described as largely a Progressive, or modern day use of Liberal, leaning newspaper.

Left/right has a certain usage in general terms, but for example you can get social liberals who are very right wing economically.... like Johnson/Cameron

Then you can get more economic liberals like Farron who are socially illiberal.  If we do get the Dec election the Graun will support the Lib Dems, even though Swinson has supported every Tory austerity measure of the last 9 years, voting that way apart from her 2 years out of Parliament, Similarly there will be those on here who pay lip service to opposing austerity but won't vote for Corbyn's Labour who have always opposed it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 25, 2019, 21:50:19
there will be those on here who pay lip service to opposing austerity but won't vote for Corbyn's Labour who have always opposed it.
This may surprise you but there are lots of people in this country who oppose austerity but think Corbyn is weak and incompetent. Labour will need to win those people over if they are to have any hope of winning an election. I wonder whether sneering at them as "paying lip service to opposing austerity" is the best way to do that?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, October 26, 2019, 07:00:31
And there you have it

‘Weekend talks by the 27 leaders are likely to be influenced by a leaked document, seen by the Financial Times, that indicates the British government may want to diverge away from the bloc's rules on workers' rights and environmental protections after Brexit.

There are fears by some EU nations, especially Germany, that Mr Johnson is preparing to reform Britain into "Singapore-on-Thames" - a low-tax, lightly regulated economy on the edge of Europe - once it has left.’

Pity it’s Corbyn that’s tasked with pushing back against it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, October 26, 2019, 07:15:17
This sums it up well for me.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/25/labour-jeremy-corbyn-party-leader-brexit-boris-johnson

It's all very depressing.  Much as I loathe just about everything he stands for, I can see that Johnson will take Corbyn apart at a GE.  Corbyn will retreat back in to the shadows and Johnson will get until 2025 to turn this country (or England & Wales) in to a low wage sweat shop.

Happy Saturday, everyone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, October 26, 2019, 12:35:41
This sums it up well for me.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/25/labour-jeremy-corbyn-party-leader-brexit-boris-johnson

It's all very depressing.  Much as I loathe just about everything he stands for, I can see that Johnson will take Corbyn apart at a GE.  Corbyn will retreat back in to the shadows and Johnson will get until 2025 to turn this country (or England & Wales) in to a low wage sweat shop.

Happy Saturday, everyone.
Indeed. Some on here could do well to understand this paragraph in particular so they understand why Labour will lose the next election under Corbyn even against a historically shite government:

"To be concise, Johnson yearns for an election because the remain vote is divided – and that is because millions of remainers have looked at Corbyn’s Labour and decided they need to look elsewhere. Yet the curious thing about British politics just now is that, among Labour supporters, this is barely mentioned in public. To raise it is to bring social media ordure down upon on your head, as if it were improper or even sacrilegious to speak of such things – even though it is truly extraordinary that the party of opposition is not 20 points ahead of a government in office for nine years, so bitterly divided it has expelled 21 of its own MPs, including two former chancellors, and which has failed to deliver on its central promise. Such a government should be bracing itself for a wipeout. Instead, blessed by a record-breakingly weak opposition, it is preparing to win another term."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, October 26, 2019, 12:50:36
Indeed. Some on here could do well to understand this paragraph in particular so they understand why Labour will lose the next election under Corbyn even against a historically shite government:

"To be concise, Johnson yearns for an election because the remain vote is divided – and that is because millions of remainers have looked at Corbyn’s Labour and decided they need to look elsewhere. Yet the curious thing about British politics just now is that, among Labour supporters, this is barely mentioned in public. To raise it is to bring social media ordure down upon on your head, as if it were improper or even sacrilegious to speak of such things – even though it is truly extraordinary that the party of opposition is not 20 points ahead of a government in office for nine years, so bitterly divided it has expelled 21 of its own MPs, including two former chancellors, and which has failed to deliver on its central promise. Such a government should be bracing itself for a wipeout. Instead, blessed by a record-breakingly weak opposition, it is preparing to win another term."

Freedland has his reasons for always trying to undermine Corbyn and Labour.

Labour will lose the next election because as it stands the country has lurched to the right in the face of pressing issues.

The question of how far is moot. 

Personally I'll be looking closely at how Labour's new thinking on the climate emergency looks.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, October 26, 2019, 12:56:47
Freedland has his reasons for always trying to undermine Corbyn and Labour.

Labour will lose the next election because as it stands the country has lurched to the right in the face of pressing issues.
Labour will lose the next election because Corbyn has zero credibility outside the cult and instead of trying to win over the more moderate or undecided voters they will need to win an election, the cult instead stick their heads in the sand and denounce anyone who isn't fully signed up as right wingers, Blairites, hypocrites etc.

there will be those on here who pay lip service to opposing austerity but won't vote for Corbyn's Labour who have always opposed it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Saturday, October 26, 2019, 13:04:22
We had an election in 2017 for a fixed five year term.  We knew what we were voting for.  Honour the general election result.  No GE until 2022.

If anything as the referendum was earlier, we should have another one of those first...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, October 26, 2019, 13:37:58
Labour will lose the next election because Corbyn has zero credibility outside the cult and instead of trying to win over the more moderate or undecided voters they will need to win an election, the cult instead stick their heads in the sand and denounce anyone who isn't fully signed up as right wingers, Blairites, hypocrites etc.


I don't agree with trying to water down your thinking in order to accommodate the floating voter, present your policies and let people decide what's in their best interest.

It helps of course if the policies are not based on lies like the Leave campaign in the ref.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, October 26, 2019, 17:47:42
I don't agree with trying to water down your thinking in order to accommodate the floating voter, present your policies and let people decide what's in their best interest.

It helps of course if the policies are not based on lies like the Leave campaign in the ref.
My point wasn't really about the policies though, it was and always has been that Corbyn is a liability. He is weak, incompetent and divisive, much like his opposite number tbf, and in his favour at least he isn't a habitual liar. To some extent, he's almost too honest. However, with him in charge Labour will not win an election because outside of the true believers he is widely derided and mistrusted. To win an election, Labour don't necessarily need to water down their thinking, they just need to recognise he is their biggest liability and get rid of him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, October 26, 2019, 18:33:36
My point wasn't really about the policies though, it was and always has been that Corbyn is a liability. He is weak, incompetent and divisive, much like his opposite number tbf, and in his favour at least he isn't a habitual liar. To some extent, he's almost too honest. However, with him in charge Labour will not win an election because outside of the true believers he is widely derided and mistrusted. To win an election, Labour don't necessarily need to water down their thinking, they just need to recognise he is their biggest liability and get rid of him.

It would make fuck all difference the vested interests will always do their bit to undermine a potential Labour government. Ed Milliband would have made a perfectly good PM, certainly the country wouldn't be in its current mess, had he become PM in 2015 but because his father was a Marxist academic, he was Red Ed, hence dangerous.  Of course complete bullshit, but people believe this shit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Saturday, October 26, 2019, 19:31:00
Frankly if your country votes in a fourth successive Tory government, it deserves all it has coming to it.

Like they say, there ain’t no cure for stupid.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, October 26, 2019, 19:33:04
It would make fuck all difference the vested interests will always do their bit to undermine a potential Labour government. Ed Milliband would have made a perfectly good PM, certainly the country wouldn't be in its current mess, had he become PM in 2015 but because his father was a Marxist academic, he was Red Ed, hence dangerous.  Of course complete bullshit, but people believe this shit
So so true


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Saturday, October 26, 2019, 20:44:01
It would make fuck all difference the vested interests will always do their bit to undermine a potential Labour government. Ed Milliband would have made a perfectly good PM, certainly the country wouldn't be in its current mess, had he become PM in 2015 but because his father was a Marxist academic, he was Red Ed, hence dangerous.  Of course complete bullshit, but people believe this shit


It isn't always someone else's fault though is it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, October 26, 2019, 20:53:00
I don't agree with trying to water down your thinking in order to accommodate the floating voter, present your policies and let people decide what's in their best interest.

It helps of course if the policies are not based on lies like the Leave campaign in the ref.
We can all believe what we like but a charismatic leader will beat an uncharismatic one.  The reason Corbyn surprised in 2017 was because May was worse.  So wooden, as well as having unwisely (if laudably in some ways) put a dementia tax in her manifesto.  Johnson will be neither wooden nor promise any “hard” policies.  They will be quietly applied after an election should the Cons secure sufficient support.

By all means hold with your beliefs of openness undiluted but that will not foreseeably, openly showcase an election winning party with  FPTP.  IMO, of course.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, October 26, 2019, 22:55:43
My point wasn't really about the policies though, it was and always has been that Corbyn is a liability. He is weak, incompetent and divisive, much like his opposite number tbf, and in his favour at least he isn't a habitual liar. To some extent, he's almost too honest. However, with him in charge Labour will not win an election because outside of the true believers he is widely derided and mistrusted. To win an election, Labour don't necessarily need to water down their thinking, they just need to recognise he is their biggest liability and get rid of him.

The fact that a rational thinker like yourself has this opinion shows why Corbyn has no chance. I completely disagree that he is "weak, incompetent and divisive" but you are not alone in that view. For that reason he will never be pm. Boris knows this, hence why he wants an election asap. He'll get enough to form a dirty coalition and the status quo will continue. We're fucked, both globally and nationally.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, October 27, 2019, 11:59:47
since 2017 Corbyn has fluffed it in the eyes of many.

Like it or not his brexit inaction in the face of a terrible government, combined with the hatchet job the Tories have done on him regarding anti semitism have hit home.

And yet I may still vote tactically for him if a second confirmatory referendum is on the offering.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Sunday, October 27, 2019, 12:32:41
Bet they keep Diane Abbott away from the limelight after her gaffs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, October 27, 2019, 12:36:05
since 2017 Corbyn has fluffed it in the eyes of many.

Like it or not his brexit inaction in the face of a terrible government, combined with the hatchet job the Tories have done on him regarding anti semitism have hit home.

And yet I may still vote tactically for him if a second confirmatory referendum is on the offering.

It's worth remembering in our system you vote for a party, and its policies, you can then elect the local candidate.

In 2017 nobody voted for Johnson, but rather the Tory Party led by May, when they decided she was no longer required as leader, we still got the Tory Party and its policies.  If our democracy was a US style presidential system, admitedly what some people think we have, then May would still be in place.

I've pointed out before in my lifetime prior to Johson Ive seen 13 PM's of those 5 have been removed by the electorate 8 by their party.

If JC did win the next election I wouldn't expect him to last long as leader before passing on the baton....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, October 27, 2019, 13:10:01
Bet they keep Diane Abbott away from the limelight after her gaffs.

Mysteriously be ill or have family issues to attend to.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Monday, October 28, 2019, 08:58:11
To win an election, Labour don't necessarily need to water down their thinking, they just need to recognise he is their biggest liability and get rid of him.

Who do you propose as possible replacements?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, October 28, 2019, 09:03:38
Who do you propose as possible replacements?
I'm not that familiar with the possible cast tbh. I'm fairly sure any name I throw out will be met with a "Ah but he/she has done X or didn't do Y". And I don't see that I have to suggest a replacement. Corbyn is a liability who will prevent Labour from being elected, it's up to Labour to come up with a credible alternative if they want to get elected. Or they can keep preaching to an ever dwindling choir while maintaining a level of vitriol to the unpure outsiders that will continue to see their base shrink. Don't get me wrong, I want Labour to do well, or indeed anyone who can unseat Johnson's unhinged government. But I don't think Corbyn is the man for the job and the blinkered "If you don't buy into the Jezza cult, you're a backsliding running dog rightist" attitude of some of his supporters is a massive problem for Labour if they want to be more than a niche protest faction.

EDIT: And if the response is to be that he is the best candidate for the job, then if Labour is so bereft of talent that Corbyn is the best they can offer, they certainly aren't fit for government. And the same, obviously, applies to the Tories and Johnson's govt of despicable nomarks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, October 28, 2019, 09:37:46
Extension granted.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, October 28, 2019, 09:38:13
I’ll stick this here. Anywhere is enough to make you feel sick to your stomach.

39 Bulgarians found dead in the back of a lorry in Essex

Jesus Christ

Horrible isn't it, I suppose linking it back to the theme of the thread it will b considerably less likely to happen after Brexit which is a small mercy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, October 28, 2019, 09:43:34
This may surprise you but there are lots of people in this country who oppose austerity but think Corbyn is weak and incompetent. Labour will need to win those people over if they are to have any hope of winning an election. I wonder whether sneering at them as "paying lip service to opposing austerity" is the best way to do that?

Labour never learned from the mistake that Milliband made and Corbyn and the cultists have just blindly built upon. You never win elections based upon the faithful, you win based upon the floating voter, Labour supporters can lather themselves into a frenzy over their 500k membership, based on 2017 results that's on a par with what the Greens and UKIP polled, its gonna get them nowhere.

The fact that the cultists are going after the LD's again is always a good sign that they are beginning to get squeaky bums, but it won't be the anointed ones fault OK you heretic!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, October 28, 2019, 09:46:20
We had an election in 2017 for a fixed five year term.  We knew what we were voting for.  Honour the general election result.  No GE until 2022.

If anything as the referendum was earlier, we should have another one of those first...

That's the thing, we actually voted in a Tory government in 2015 based upon the FTPA for a term of 5 years so an election would have been due next year.

However since then we have had one election as the Tories thought they could strengthen their position, and now are planning another one because the Tories have lost their majority through their own incompetence and don't like the composition of parliament!

But remember democracy doesn't allow the public to change its mind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Monday, October 28, 2019, 09:52:07
Extension granted.

It's just been brought to my attention
That Johnson has got an extension.
Which means that the snitch
Has to die in a ditch.
Or was there a miscomprehension?
-Attila The Stockbroker


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, October 28, 2019, 09:56:50
#ditchMeansDitch
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EH33pJRXkAEqeUY?format=png&name=900x900)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Monday, October 28, 2019, 11:09:33
I'm not that familiar with the possible cast tbh. I'm fairly sure any name I throw out will be met with a "Ah but he/she has done X or didn't do Y". And I don't see that I have to suggest a replacement. Corbyn is a liability who will prevent Labour from being elected, it's up to Labour to come up with a credible alternative if they want to get elected. Or they can keep preaching to an ever dwindling choir while maintaining a level of vitriol to the unpure outsiders that will continue to see their base shrink. Don't get me wrong, I want Labour to do well, or indeed anyone who can unseat Johnson's unhinged government. But I don't think Corbyn is the man for the job and the blinkered "If you don't buy into the Jezza cult, you're a backsliding running dog rightist" attitude of some of his supporters is a massive problem for Labour if they want to be more than a niche protest faction.

EDIT: And if the response is to be that he is the best candidate for the job, then if Labour is so bereft of talent that Corbyn is the best they can offer, they certainly aren't fit for government. And the same, obviously, applies to the Tories and Johnson's govt of despicable nomarks.

So get rid without regard for the replacement?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, October 28, 2019, 11:13:36
The press will just lay into Corbyn's replacement as much as they have with Corbyn. A lot of the stuff on Corbyn is exaggerated or just plain false. They'll soon be able to fabricate some 'dirt' on his replacement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, October 28, 2019, 11:15:56
So get rid without regard for the replacement?
I didn't say that did I? This is half the problem. I'm someone who wants to vote against Johnson, I should be a willing customer for Labour. I've got something you want, my vote, but I have a problem with the Labour offer as it stands. I tell you what the problem is and instead of trying to solve it so I can vote for Labour, you come back and ask me what my alternative is? Fuck it, I've left the shop by that point. Do you want my vote or not?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, October 28, 2019, 11:19:51
The press will just lay into Corbyn's replacement as much as they have with Corbyn. A lot of the stuff on Corbyn is exaggerated or just plain false. They'll soon be able to fabricate some 'dirt' on his replacement.
Of course they will, they always have. But they don't have to make much up on Corbyn, he's his own (and Labour's) worst enemy. I'm well inured to ignoring smears from the right wing press, did so with Milliband, but I struggle to vote Labour if it puts Corbyn in power. And using the press as an excuse is a cop-out. The right wing press are biased against Labour, so what's new? Always have been, always will be. If Labour are using that as an excuse for how badly they're doing, that's just defeatist because that isn't going to change. But there is plenty that is within their power to change, starting with Corbyn.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, October 28, 2019, 11:21:36
I didn't say that did I? This is half the problem. I'm someone who wants to vote against Johnson, I should be a willing customer for Labour. I've got something you want, my vote, but I have a problem with the Labour offer as it stands. I tell you what the problem is and instead of trying to solve it so I can vote for Labour, you come back and ask me what my alternative is? Fuck it, I've left the shop by that point. Do you want my vote or not?


There probably aren't many people who get exactly what they want in terms of policy or personalities from their vote, so in many ways it's usually the least bad option.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, October 28, 2019, 11:33:24
There probably aren't many people who get exactly what they want in terms of policy or personalities from their vote, so in many ways it's usually the least bad option.
Of course, it always is. and on that basis I may yet end up (very) reluctantly voting Labour. But when you're already fighting an uphill battle against a hostile press etc etc, it really doesn't help people make that compromise if you have the most unpopular and divisive leader in the history of your party. Voting Labour should be not so much an easy choice for me, as a default. The fact I'm struggling with it and I know plenty of others in my position should be worrying for people who want to see the party succeed in stopping Johnson. Instead I'm just seeing a lot of shoulder shrugging, "well who else do you want then?" whataboutery and a general failure to take it seriously quite how toxic Corbyn is to Labour. It might not look like that from inside the fold, but it sure as shit does outside.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, October 28, 2019, 11:45:45
But they don't have to make much up on Corbyn,

But they do. About 99% of what they say is fucking bollocks.

His biggest fault as far as I can tell is being indecisive on Brexit. Other than that it's cunts believing what other cunts have written in newspapers.

How much support would he have lost over the alledged antisemitism that we have been reminded of at every given opportunity? Quite possibly enough to make a considerable difference. And in the meantime, the current PM has literally called black people picanninies and said Muslim women look like letterboxes yet there's barely a mention.

Wankers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, October 28, 2019, 11:51:32
When I see criticism of Corbyn on the internet, it rarely mentions his flaws. (And he does have flaws)

Instead, it's usually claims that he is a traitor, commie, terrorist sympathiser and what not. None of which are true.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, October 28, 2019, 11:52:48

How much support would he have lost over the alledged antisemitism that we have been reminded of at every given opportunity? Quite possibly enough to make a considerable difference. And in the meantime, the current PM has literally called black people picanninies and said Muslim women look like letterboxes yet there's barely a mention.
I don't think Corbyn's anti-semitic, but Labour definitely has a problem with anti-semitism, and it largely comes from his faction, even if some of them were originally motivated by being pro-Palestinian, they've long since forgotten they can't elide Israel with Jews generally. And he has signally failed to deal with it.

You're absolutely right that Johnson is personally loathsome on race, but if someone else was making that point in response to a point about Corbyn you'd (rightly) call them out for WhatAboutery. Just because Johnson is a shit, doesn't make Corbyn's inaction any more excusable


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, October 28, 2019, 12:00:31
It is not whatabouttery.

Whatabouttery is excusing one person's bad deeds because another did the same. That is not what is happening here.

Calling bullshit is not whataboutery.
Comparing it to Johnson is merely pointing out the hypocrisy of the press - not whataboutery.

I know a tu quoque fallacy when I see one ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, October 28, 2019, 12:01:47
Comparing it to Johnson is merely pointing out the hypocrisy of the press - not whataboutery.
Fair enough, I missed that was the point you were making. Woosh!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, October 28, 2019, 12:03:43
Like him or lump him, I think Keir Starmer has enough in the tank to lead the Labour Party but does he believe he has enough juice, himself?

With the Tories shifting further to the right every day and Labour shuffling even more to the left we have a huge gap between the main parties. We have no serious centrist party. The centre-ground has become very barren.

A nation's people can mostly compromise but we do like balance, or as close to equilibrium as is practicable. We don't have balance right now. If one of the aforementioned parties draws themselves and their policies back towards the centre a little then they will achieve power. The trouble is we have a very important "itch" in the way - Brexit.

Can the parliamentary divide continue to expand at this rate? What is the limit and cost to humanity that we as a public, are prepared to allow these parties to go to the extremities (and beyond) of the left and right?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, October 28, 2019, 12:13:06
exactly FH


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, October 28, 2019, 12:33:47
I know a tu quoque fallacy when I see one ;)

Well that makes one of us.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, October 28, 2019, 12:36:08
https://twitter.com/OnlyTheBiff/status/1188786685678620673


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, October 28, 2019, 12:55:36
Like him or lump him, I think Keir Starmer has enough in the tank to lead the Labour Party but does he believe he has enough juice, himself?

With the Tories shifting further to the right every day and Labour shuffling even more to the left we have a huge gap between the main parties. We have no serious centrist party. The centre-ground has become very barren.

A nation's people can mostly compromise but we do like balance, or as close to equilibrium as is practicable. We don't have balance right now. If one of the aforementioned parties draws themselves and their policies back towards the centre a little then they will achieve power. The trouble is we have a very important "itch" in the way - Brexit.

Can the parliamentary divide continue to expand at this rate? What is the limit and cost to humanity that we as a public, are prepared to allow these parties to go to the extremities (and beyond) of the left and right?

When faced as we are with a climate emergency, then radical action will be necessary to try and avert it, or at least ameliorate the worst effects to tolerable.

At the party Conference last month Labour edged towards commiting to the New Green Deal, a road map for UK to become carbon neutral by 2030.... you may regard that as widely left wing, others would regard it as common sense. The centrist view is probably do nothing and hope for the best.

The right wing view is the market will sort it..... it's just that we've known most of this stuff for years and the market still gets on with environmental degradation.

The transition between the current growth and hang the consequences model of the economy, to somethiing more sustainable is not going to be easy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, October 28, 2019, 13:30:55
When faced as we are with a climate emergency, then radical action will be necessary to try and avert it, or at least ameliorate the worst effects to tolerable.

At the party Conference last month Labour edged towards commiting to the New Green Deal, a road map for UK to become carbon neutral by 2030.... you may regard that as widely left wing, others would regard it as common sense. The centrist view is probably do nothing and hope for the best.

The right wing view is the market will sort it..... it's just that we've known most of this stuff for years and the market still gets on with environmental degradation.

The transition between the current growth and hang the consequences model of the economy, to something more sustainable is not going to be easy.

Indeed. I would gather your opinion of what is "left wing", "right wing" and "centrism may differ from that of someone else. Herein lays a problem of political stance on the whole. I would say I'm middle left leaning. A more liberal left (opposed to an authoritarian left) but still hold some sense of centrism. Yet someone else may view my values as far to the left as Gandhi or as authoritative as Stalin. Another may feel I'm too close to the centre and not "Gandhi enough".

We cannot combat opinion of course. We can try to get one to come round to another's way of thinking - the best at this can do it well. As stated above though, even those on the same side, per say, can have a wide ranging opinion.

Bottom note. I wouldn't say making moves to tackle climate change is "widely left wing", it is indeed common sense. I'm sure someone with opposing views to mine (what we may call a rightie or in my opinion authoritative right) would likely know this issue is common sense. We do know that there are those that don't agree with this.

The Southern Ocean absorbs around double the amount of CO2 than the Amazon so we would be fool to ignore an issues such as our rapidly melting continent in the Southern Hemisphere, as well as new research pertaining to the possibility of microplastics there too.

I don't agree with your opinion that a left of centre view would "...do nothing and hope for the best." about climate change.

The transition indeed is going to be difficult but not impossible. Who has the ability (in it's current state) to build sustainable growth. Currently - no one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Monday, October 28, 2019, 13:48:05
I didn't say that did I? This is half the problem. I'm someone who wants to vote against Johnson, I should be a willing customer for Labour. I've got something you want, my vote, but I have a problem with the Labour offer as it stands. I tell you what the problem is and instead of trying to solve it so I can vote for Labour, you come back and ask me what my alternative is? Fuck it, I've left the shop by that point. Do you want my vote or not?


That is what you were saying - that you don't know about replacements but that Labour need to get rid. I asked for your alternative because you said he should go so I wondered who you would like to see there, who would get your vote.

Have you maybe made quite a jump from thinking "I don't like him/I don't think he can win an election" to saying "they should get rid of him/Corbyn is a liability who will prevent Labour from being elected"?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, October 28, 2019, 13:59:31
Have you maybe made quite a jump from thinking "I don't like him/I don't think he can win an election" to saying "they should get rid of him/Corbyn is a liability who will prevent Labour from being elected"?
I don't think so. I know a good few people who share my misgivings. If it was just me, fair enough, but I don't think I'm alone in finding Corbyn a liability. The fact that he polls as the most unpopular leader in the history of the Labour party must give you some cause for concern. (And yes I know polls can be wrong, but I don't think they're that far out in this instance). He had his moment in 2017 and he wasted it, largely by being weak and vacillating over Brexit and failing to act decisively on anti-semitism. Now he's just dragging the party down with him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, October 28, 2019, 14:03:44
But they do. About 99% of what they say is fucking bollocks.

His biggest fault as far as I can tell is being indecisive on Brexit. Other than that it's cunts believing what other cunts have written in newspapers.

(https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/73255751_2802444576481263_243919576516001792_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_oc=AQmDDjEhF8FlMutdq1AumetSh5WEG_XZe7GzqXKajacz-pe6BQSFXw98VJtNyG469xuEtdzGWi6thdtROG1Sq5Sk&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-1.fna&oh=4d7182e6ae99497f895c077ff757d997&oe=5E191D14)

How bloody dare he......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Monday, October 28, 2019, 14:15:40
I don't think so. I know a good few people who share my misgivings. If it was just me, fair enough, but I don't think I'm alone in finding Corbyn a liability. The fact that he polls as the most unpopular leader in the history of the Labour party must give you some cause for concern. (And yes I know polls can be wrong, but I don't think they're that far out in this instance). He had his moment in 2017 and he wasted it, largely by being weak and vacillating over Brexit and failing to act decisively on anti-semitism. Now he's just dragging the party down with him.

For the record, I'm one potential Labour voter who would only support Corbyn if tactics absolutely required it. Not that my view counts.

And to throw a name into the ring, I could easily get behind David Lammy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, October 28, 2019, 14:17:54
(https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/73255751_2802444576481263_243919576516001792_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_oc=AQmDDjEhF8FlMutdq1AumetSh5WEG_XZe7GzqXKajacz-pe6BQSFXw98VJtNyG469xuEtdzGWi6thdtROG1Sq5Sk&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-1.fna&oh=4d7182e6ae99497f895c077ff757d997&oe=5E191D14)

How bloody dare he......
That's a disgraceful lie. 4 days to Brexit my arse, it's fucking months off yet :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, October 28, 2019, 14:32:12
How bloody dare he......

Quite, that appears to be a single use plastic cup...

Any politico knows that's enough to rule you outbof office...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2019/oct/01/no-disposable-cups-aide-snatches-coffee-from-boris-johnsons-hand-video


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, October 28, 2019, 14:36:34
For the record, I'm one potential Labour voter who would only support Corbyn if tactics absolutely required it. Not that my view counts.

And to throw a name into the ring, I could easily get behind David Lammy.

The fact that for many vociferous cultists on Twitter Rebecca Long-Bailey seems to be the anointed one says a lot about the dearth of talent in the ideologically pure enough upper echelons of the red party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Monday, October 28, 2019, 16:02:50
Labour are currently projected to lose seats from the last GE... against this government! If I didn't know better I'd think it was deliberate.

Btw, he's not perfect, but Keir Starmer is Labour's best bet (imho).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, October 28, 2019, 19:28:20
Labour are currently projected to lose seats from the last GE... against this government! If I didn't know better I'd think it was deliberate.

Btw, he's not perfect, but Keir Starmer is Labour's best bet (imho).

When you consider that we're almost a decade in to Tory rule, and that the Tories are pursuing a goal that they know to be economically ruinous and that will probably lead to the break up of the country - it's just astonishing.  Corbyn's place in history as the most inept opposition leader will be assured.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Monday, October 28, 2019, 20:00:36
Keith Vaz suspended after his offering to buy cocaine for 2 rentboys scandal.

Should be fucking sacked imo


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, October 28, 2019, 20:03:03
Keith Vaz suspended after his offering to buy cocaine for 2 rentboys scandal.

Should be fucking sacked imo
I don't think they can. Even when MPs go to jail, they can't be sacked as such, but can face a recall petition. The idea being that only their constituents who voted them in have the power to sack them as an MP. I'm sure someone will correct me if I have this wrong :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 09:28:39
I don't think so. I know a good few people who share my misgivings. If it was just me, fair enough, but I don't think I'm alone in finding Corbyn a liability.

You talk about "a good few people".  They are everywhere.

I have a family of 4.  Up to and including the 2015 election we were: 1 always votes Tory, 2 'always' vote Labour, I am the swing voter (Labour 6 times, Tory 3 times) based purely on whether Labour had a credible offering.

In 2017 we voted 2 x LD and 2 x Tory.  In Dec we will probably be 3 x LD and 1 x Tory.

No other Labour leader in history would have stopped 3 of us voting Labour.  Faced with Boris I would have voted for Foot or Kinnoch (my 3 Tory votes to date).  

Labour should be looking at a landslide.  They are hoping for a coalition at best.  It's a joke.

How people can sit there blaming the press for this is beyond me.

Anyone from Keir Starmer onwards towards the centre-left would do just fine.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 09:34:18

Labour should be looking at a landslide. 


They are, unfortunately its coming towards them at a great rate and going to engulf them!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 09:38:54
They are, unfortunately its coming towards them at a great rate and going to engulf them!

The problem is that if it happens then it will engulf all of us too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 09:44:52
You talk about "a good few people".  They are everywhere.

I have a family of 4.  Up to and including the 2015 election we were: 1 always votes Tory, 2 'always' vote Labour, I am the swing voter (Labour 6 times, Tory 3 times) based purely on whether Labour had a credible offering.

In 2017 we voted 2 x LD and 2 x Tory.  In Dec we will probably be 3 x LD and 1 x Tory.

No other Labour leader in history would have stopped 3 of us voting Labour.  Faced with Boris I would have voted for Foot or Kinnoch (my 3 Tory votes to date). 

Labour should be looking at a landslide.  They are hoping for a coalition at best.  It's a joke.

How people can sit there blaming the press for this is beyond me.

Anyone from Keir Starmer onwards towards the centre-left would do just fine.

Thank you Pax, this typifies exactly what I was talking about. As you say, any half way credible opposition would be looking at a landslide that would see the Tories discredited and out of office for a decade or more.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 09:59:21
The problem is that if it happens then it will engulf all of us too.

It's what you get if it's what you vote for... whoever you try and blame, the country has in recent years moved further to the right in terms of attitudes, you can see it in polls like those who want Brexit and are quite happy to see the economic hit and the break up of union.

They want, a more American style system, presidential, low tax, fuck the underclass as long as I'm doing alright, and lock them up for a long time if they offend.

The traditional North European social democracy is seen as failing.... it's expensive.

Johnson unlike Corbyn, is only in it for himself, he knows the votes lie well to the right and so is trying to position himself there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 10:02:46
Meanwhile, nothing quite tells the tale of the triumphalism turned to tails between legs shuffling about and overall complete waste of money of this government's Brexit policies than the pile of gloating 50p coins that are now having to be melted down because "Dead In a Ditch" Johnson bottled it (again)

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-commemorative-leaving-coins-to-be-destroyed-after-delay-11847958


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 10:09:22
It's what you get if it's what you vote for... whoever you try and blame, the country has in recent years moved further to the right in terms of attitudes
I think it's moved further to the extremes, both left and right, the centre seems to have broken down.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 10:24:34
I think it's moved further to the extremes, both left and right, the centre seems to have broken down.

I'll say it again.... there was nothing in the 17 Labour manifesto, that would look out of place in European Social Democracy that's the most recent thing we have to go on.

So it included a commitment to Trident.... but renationalise Royal Mail, and railways and perhaps some utilities. Scrap tuition fees, recruit 10,000 coppers and build a million homes while planting a million trees.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 10:32:08
I'll say it again.... there was nothing in the 17 Labour manifesto, that would look out of place in European Social Democracy that's the most recent thing we have to go on
I didn't say anything about the Labour manifesto. I was responding to your point that the country had shifted to the right, by which I assumed you meant people in the country, and I think more people have moved *toward* the extremes of both left and right i.e. the country has become more polarised. I don't think that's an especially controversial point and it has little to do with the contents of Labour's last manifesto.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 10:45:48
I didn't say anything about the Labour manifesto. I was responding to your point that the country had shifted to the right, by which I assumed you meant people in the country, and I think more people have moved *toward* the extremes of both left and right i.e. the country has become more polarised. I don't think that's an especially controversial point and it has little to do with the contents of Labour's last manifesto.

Fair enough...  it's an interesting point.  There have always been outliers on the left and right, perhaps a more useful dichotomy would be collectivism v individualism.  Collectivism has eroded, and individualism rules.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 10:51:59
Labour (front bench at least) backing the election for early December, so it's on.

Ho ho oh god why this is going to be awful


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 11:07:01
Labour (front bench at least) backing the election for early December, so it's on.

Ho ho oh god why this is going to be awful

https://twitter.com/DavidB45212563/status/1189133288050450432


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 11:29:45
That prick Cameron has a lot to answer for. Thats all saying.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 11:43:03
 :clap:  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 11:45:42
I think everyone is jumping the gun a little, the motion is subject to potential amendment this afternoon with votes for under 16's and those from the EU with settled status being on the table. Both of these would seriously affect the Tories chances so I can still see them pulling it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 11:54:04
I wouldn’t say jumping the gun, just thankful something is moving, all be it at a glacial pace. As I said a while ago, still a long way to go.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 12:03:41
Don't worry it looks to be turning into a Labour shambles already.

We appear to have Labour MP's briefing that the LD's are seeking to block the amendments for U16's and settled EU which could scupper Labour agreement, this is clearly bollocks as the LD's have been pushing for such a measure for years, then on the other hand we have Labour MP's coming out suggesting that if these things do not pass its not  a deal breaker anyway.

Now we have certain MP's suggesting they are going to defy the whip and possibly resign if the front bench supports Johnson.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 13:31:50
We appear to have Labour MP's briefing that the LD's are seeking to block the amendments for U16's and settled EU which could scupper Labour agreement, this is clearly bollocks as the LD's have been pushing for such a measure for years
In the same way they'd been pushing for a 2nd referendum for years before Jo Swinson ditched it for straight revoke? Or the way they firmly opposed tuition fees? Lib Dems just as capable of indecision, bollocks and all the rest as either of the other two parties


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 13:34:06
I didn't say anything about the Labour manifesto. I was responding to your point that the country had shifted to the right, by which I assumed you meant people in the country, and I think more people have moved *toward* the extremes of both left and right i.e. the country has become more polarised. I don't think that's an especially controversial point and it has little to do with the contents of Labour's last manifesto.

I'm not so sure the country has moved, but what certainly has happened, in the age of twitter et al, is the magnification of the extreme views.  Now, that may have shifted some people as well, but just like racism, we are fools to believe much changes quickly, it's more that things go unnoticed.

In terms of Labour, you only have to look at the disdain Blair receives by people who gladly back Corbyn (even ignoring his Iraq war crap).  Blair was precisely what Labour needed, they'd now rather burn him at the stake for heresy and believe a more left wing protest organiser is the right choice.   Reg, I think you mentioned about the need for people to vote on their principles, hence Corbyn being a good choice (or words to that effect), I'd argue he does precisely what Paul is describing - he narrows the choice down to a smaller base.  He gets plenty of followers with passion, but you cannot win an election without recognising the fact a majority do not fully support your policies and a degree of comprimise is needed.  Oh for some sort of PR.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 13:36:43
In the same way they'd been pushing for a 2nd referendum for years before Jo Swinson ditched it for straight revoke? Or the way they firmly opposed tuition fees? Lib Dems just as capable of indecision, bollocks and all the rest as either of the other two parties

Possibly so, but less adept at simultaneously briefing the press with polar differing points of view!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 13:58:28
In the same way they'd been pushing for a 2nd referendum for years before Jo Swinson ditched it for straight revoke? Or the way they firmly opposed tuition fees? Lib Dems just as capable of indecision, bollocks and all the rest as either of the other two parties

Politics nerd hat on, Lib Dem policy is made by members at conference rather than the leadership per se. But your point generally is right, albeit revoke and remain is based on the fairly unlikely scenario of a Lib Dem majority.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 14:19:49
Politics nerd hat on, Lib Dem policy is made by members at conference rather than the leadership per se. But your point generally is right, albeit revoke and remain is based on the fairly unlikely scenario of a Lib Dem majority.
TBF horlock's original point that Labour are all over the shop is also equally valid. Meanwhile, for those who heard the London Fire Brigade getting torn a new one on Radio 4's Today programme this morning, this tweet is rather salient:

"Housing minister at the time Gavin Barwell ignored 7 fire safety warnings from the residents of Grenfell. Boris Johnson as London mayor closed down firestations. Gavin was awarded life peerage & Johnson is now PM. The brave firefighters were awarded blame."

https://twitter.com/BenJolly9/status/1189120944981323777

I used to dismiss the complaints of BBC bias as whinging tbh but more and more over recent months it has started to sound like a government mouthpiece. The coverage of the Brexit shenannigans in parliament and the courts has been really poor. Worrying if we are about to go into an election


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 16:16:36
John Curtice nearly always seems to be on the ball (and a friend of mine used to work with him and he is apparently a jolly decent bloke!) he has some intereesting thoughts here...

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/shelagh-fogarty/professor-john-curtice-makes-surprising-prediction/

I suppose the long and short is that whilst Corbyn can do a deal with another party get into no. 10 although he might have to concede on Brexit, Johnson likely cannot to do a deal to deliver Brexit as he has burnt way too many bridges.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 16:52:26
I don't think there is a cat in hells chance of any of the amendments regarding the franchise being allowed as they go way beyond the content of the subject bill, however, on a wider level this rater sums it up!

https://newsthump.com/2019/10/29/government-will-pull-election-bill-if-vote-is-given-to-people-who-wont-vote-for-them/

Actually edit that, its not satire https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/tobias-ellwood-on-sky-news-1-6347721?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 17:22:09
That's interesting.  Given that the Tories are going to need an outright majority (or close to one) to push Brexit through, it makes you wonder whether Farage would be best advised to stand the Brexit Party down and allow the entire Leave vote to coalesce around the Tories.  Logically speaking, that would make most sense if his objective was for Brexit to happen.

I suspect, however, that what he is more concerned with is being able to continue heading up a protest group and to continue making money from the associated media opportunities this gives him (like his daily LBC radio show).  So maybe facilitating Brexit and allowing the Tories to take the 'credit' isn't top of his agenda.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, October 29, 2019, 23:23:50
That's interesting.  Given that the Tories are going to need an outright majority (or close to one) to push Brexit through, it makes you wonder whether Farage would be best advised to stand the Brexit Party down and allow the entire Leave vote to coalesce around the Tories.  Logically speaking, that would make most sense if his objective was for Brexit to happen.

I suspect, however, that what he is more concerned with is being able to continue heading up a protest group and to continue making money from the associated media opportunities this gives him (like his daily LBC radio show).  So maybe facilitating Brexit and allowing the Tories to take the 'credit' isn't top of his agenda.

Well put.  I think you may well be right.  Farage stays relevant whilst Brexit is nearly there but not quite.

To maintain that position, is he prepared to split the Leave vote and risk a majority Remain parliament elected on an unambiguous manifesto of a second referendum? 

Indeed does he even regard it as being undesirable?  A second referendum would put him back on every front page.

I guess we will find out fairly soon what his priorities really are. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 08:24:36
I think there's also voter apathy to be taken into consideration. Those that are pro-leave and/or conservative-leaning tend to be the ones shouting the loudest about not having their votes respected etc. How many will not bother?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 08:31:23
I’ve emailed Boris. Chances of a reply?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 09:20:30
I’ve emailed Boris. Chances of a reply?

Did you attach a picture suggesting you were a young blonde IT specialist, if so quite high I suspect.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 09:25:05
I assume you mean blonde female IT specialist?

Or are you suggesting that Boris really is a man of all of the people?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 09:41:56
I’ve emailed Boris. Chances of a reply?
Of course you'll get a reply. All MPs employ staff to deal with their correspondence, the Prime Minister has plenty. Will you get a reply from Johnson personally? No, of course not. Will the reply answer your question? No, of course not. Even if it did, would the reply answer your question truthfully? You can do it from here ....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 09:43:28
Well put.  I think you may well be right.  Farage stays relevant whilst Brexit is nearly there but not quite.

To maintain that position, is he prepared to split the Leave vote and risk a majority Remain parliament elected on an unambiguous manifesto of a second referendum? 

Indeed does he even regard it as being undesirable?  A second referendum would put him back on every front page.

I guess we will find out fairly soon what his priorities really are. 
His priorities are (in order) Nigel Farage, Nigel Farage and Farage, Nigel. Saw a rumour on twitter yesterday that he's been offered a peerage, presumably as part of a pay-off for an election deal, if not a formal pact, of some kind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 13:03:58
I'm hoping for as many Brexit party candidates as possible. The more Tory votes they can steal the better. Unfortunately this GE will be dominated by brexit. Ridiculous as it is, it will sway people's voting preferences in many cases.


Having been watching pmq's again today I don't know why they don't just abolish it. The Prime minister doesn't answer questions.   


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 13:08:33
I'm hoping for as many Brexit party candidates as possible. The more Tory votes they can steal the better. Unfortunately this GE will be dominated by brexit. Ridiculous as it is, it will sway people's voting preferences in many cases.

Rather sums the whole charade up.... https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1189324027111849985


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 13:16:06
Yep. I like Jess Phillips.
 She asked a question today too which wasn't answered. Just the usual 'everything will be great under us' retort from Boris.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 13:44:59
I have a deep sense of foreboding about this election.  After a decade of Tory rule, and a Tory manifesto that will pledge to force through an agenda (Brexit) that it knows to be economically catastrophic - there's an open goal, right there.

But the opposition are in such disarray, that the open goal will be missed.  Corbyn's weakness on Brexit will be Labour's undoing.  And I'm fairly sure the Tories will mop up as a result.  FPTP will see them through.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 16:30:59
Tory MPs mocking Corbyn for the colour of his (bright green) tie - which he was wearing to show solidarity for the Grenfell victims.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 17:11:26
Tory MPs mocking Corbyn for the colour of his (bright green) tie - which he was wearing to show solidarity for the Grenfell victims.

Its unknown for me to say anything positive about Theresa May, but to her rare credit she was fuming with her colleagues about it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 18:20:48
Dick Braine quits as UKIP leader.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/30/richard-braine-quits-ukip-leader-after-less-than-three-months


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 18:41:38
Dick Braine quits as UKIP leader.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/30/richard-braine-quits-ukip-leader-after-less-than-three-months

To be replaced by Willy Cummings.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 20:31:30
In a rare case of social media platforms understanding their place in modern society, and particularly how they can be abused, Twitter are banning all paid political adverts from 22nd November. Comes at a time when zuckerberg is being grilled in Washington On that very issue at the moment (and not looking very convincing in answering from what I’ve seen)

I know its only a small segment of the big political outreach pie, and I’m sure the people paid big bucks to figure out ways around this will soon do so, but the timing is a bit interesting given it comes into effect slap bang in the middle of our election campaigning season


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 20:33:55
And to add to that, just read that 2017 campaigning spent £3.7m on Facebook ads - £50k on twitter. So probably won’t have much of an effect, but a good step nonetheless


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 07:48:37
Happy Ditch Day everyone! Assume the nation will now enter a period of mourning for our late PM when his body is recovered from the relevant ditch in accordance with his solemn pledge #ditchMeansDitch


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 07:50:30
you can tell when Boris is lying. his lips move


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 08:20:02
Happy Ditch Day everyone! Assume the nation will now enter a period of mourning for our late PM when his body is recovered from the relevant ditch in accordance with his solemn pledge #ditchMeansDitch
In the interests of political balance, this Halloween:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIJJs6SX0AgczQ3.png


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 08:37:24
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Gatland

Oops - "a post she resigned from after being exposed as a former member of the Irish Republican Army (IRA).[1]

I suppose those calling Corbyn a traitor will be wanting to know why there is an ACTUAL former IRA member working as a councillor for the Tory party?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 08:45:52
The political journey from being a member of the IRA to a Conservative councillor is... intriguing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 09:07:07
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Gatland

Oops - "a post she resigned from after being exposed as a former member of the Irish Republican Army (IRA).[1]

I suppose those calling Corbyn a traitor will be wanting to know what there is an ACTUAL former IRA member working as a councillor for the Tory party?


Not to mention Claire Fox, one time leading light of the Revolutionary Communist Party who applauded the IRA bombing of Warrington, now represents the area as a Brexit Party MEP for the Northwest


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 09:08:48
Corbyn gets called a terrorist sympathiser and IRA supporter by brainless idiots. He was openly talking to Sinn Fein members as he had nothing to hide and was trying to get solutions for peace. At the same time Maggie Thatcher was telling the e public she doesn't talk to terrorist's while secretly meeting with the IRA.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 09:14:15
Corbyn gets called a terrorist sympathiser and IRA supporter by brainless idiots.

I know a literal astrophysicist that does this, somebody that I know to be a strong debater on certain other topics. He's even endorsed Daily Mail articles despite disregarding the DM as untrustworthy when cited in other, non-political discussions.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 09:17:43
I know a literal astrophysicist that does this, somebody that I know to be a strong debater on certain other topics. He's even endorsed Daily Mail articles despite disregarding the DM as untrustworthy when cited in other, non-political discussions.



When it suits then I suppose.

 It's the same with the anti semitic smears. Corbyn has fought their corner his entire political career. Now he's called anti Jewish and bigoted towards them. Utter lies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 09:21:26
Nice balanced forum as ever I see......

Now then brothers, one out all out!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 10:16:13
Nice balanced forum as ever I see......

Now then brothers, one out all out!!
Maybe you could contribute to the thread then and provide that balance?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 10:18:10
When it suits then I suppose.

 It's the same with the anti semitic smears. Corbyn has fought their corner his entire political career. Now he's called anti Jewish and bigoted towards them. Utter lies.

Its been over egged, however he does seem to have a bloody great blind spot regarding the issue in the party and also an unfortunately habit of finding himself endorsing or at least not condoning some dodgy stuff, too many things have been put down to him being unfortunate or being accidentally in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Both parties have these issues with parts of their wider membership, Islam for the blue lot and Judaism for the red team, however it does sum up the media when one compares Corbyn with some of the racist and homophobic stuff Johnson has come out with which is barely mentioned in the media.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 10:43:20
Superb. The Tories have apparently decided on #BritainDeservesBetter as their election hashtag. You've been in power for the past 9 years, you fucking idiots.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 10:45:34
I think they missed "opposition" off the end  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 10:47:23
I think they missed "opposition" off the end  :)
Well they've been missing "government" since the start so maybe. They're right though, Britain does indeed deserve better than that bunch of lying self-serving charlatans.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 10:50:54
All parties can fall into that category. It's why I hate politics


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 10:58:14
he does seem to have a bloody great blind spot regarding the issue in the party

How?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 10:59:03
All parties can fall into that category. It's why I hate politics
To some extent. But Johnson is out in a category all of his own, perhaps shared with Trump.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 11:07:10
How?
Until Labour and it's supporters are prepared to admit that it has a problem with anti-Semitism instead of continually sticking their heads in the sand and denying there's an issue, you're going to continue to be dogged by this issue. The Jewish Labour Movement, Louise Ellman, Luciana Berger etc etc etc can't all be dismissed as being right wing trolls. As a party you have a problem, you need to confront it and be seen to be doing so. Denial isn't helping you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 11:25:31
Agreed, the Corbynista’s on here back your point up completely.

The issue isn’t completely a media made up one, there is a real issue that has failed to be dealt with time and time again


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 11:26:28
Until Labour and it's supporters are prepared to admit that it has a problem with anti-Semitism instead of continually sticking their heads in the sand and denying there's an issue, you're going to continue to be dogged by this issue. The Jewish Labour Movement, Louise Ellman, Luciana Berger etc etc etc can't all be dismissed as being right wing trolls. As a party you have a problem, you need to confront it and be seen to be doing so. Denial isn't helping you.

Don't you think it's been blown out of all proportion? Any anti semitism is very few people and no more than its ever been. This is all stemmed from Israeli supporters due the criticism of their regime, which was then twisted into anti semitism. Why on earth would Labour be a party of anti semitism? It just doesn't add up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 11:27:51
I even think that's bullshit:

Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_Party

Quote
The Home Affairs Select Committee held an inquiry into antisemitism in the United Kingdom in the same year and found "no reliable, empirical evidence to support the notion that there is a higher prevalence of antisemitic attitudes within the Labour Party than any other political party

I see lots of claims that there Labour has more of a problem than any other party - but no evidence.

Until somebody does provide evidence - I will just disregard it as yet another example of the press doing what they can to smear Corbyn. Successfully so. He gets criticised for not tackling a problem that appears to be fabricated and, when he does take action (which he does), it gets ignored.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 11:30:26
How you all surviving out there, I recall that it we didn't leave the EU today we were assured that there would be riots and Britain would explode?

Keep safe people!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 11:30:59

Until somebody does provide evidence - I will just disregard it as yet another example of the press doing what they can to smear Corbyn. Successfully so.

It's not just the press though is it? There's plenty of prominent, long serving Jewish Labour supporters, MPs and campaigning organisations who've all expressed concerns ranging from disquiet to resigning through to the Jewish Labour Movement refusing to campaign for Labour in the election. Labour can continue to try to ignore the issue and shout about "nothing to see here" but it's not going away and it is hurting them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 11:32:07
I even think that's bullshit:

Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_Party

I see lots of claims that there Labour has more of a problem than any other party - but no evidence.

Until somebody does provide evidence - I will just disregard it as yet another example of the press doing what they can to smear Corbyn. Successfully so. He gets criticised for not tackling a problem that appears to be fabricated and, when he does take action (which he does), it gets ignored.
This.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 11:32:42
How you all surviving out there, I recall that it we didn't leave the EU today we were assured that there would be riots and Britain would explode?

Keep safe people!

My biggest concern is that Katie Hopkins is set to follow through on a promise to pose topless if we didn’t leave by today


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 11:34:03
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-antisemitism-political-parties

Polls from 2015: https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/921pn4p2fh/CampaignAgainstAntisemitismResults_MergedFile_W.pdf
Polls from 2017: https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/bs0i5dmt7s/CampaignAgainstAntisemitismResults_170803_JewishOpinions.pdf

Both Polls conducted by Yougov. Conclusion; anti-semitism has reduced under Labour, yet people (especially British Jews) 'feel' like it has increased.

You may draw your own conclusions from the data.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 11:36:52
My biggest concern is that Katie Hopkins is set to follow through on a promise to pose topless if we didn’t leave by today

I was shocked to discover that she is the same age as me, hate really does age you prematurely doesn't it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 11:37:18
It's not just the press though is it? There's plenty of prominent, long serving Jewish Labour supporters, MPs and campaigning organisations who've all expressed concerns ranging from disquiet to resigning through to the Jewish Labour Movement refusing to campaign for Labour in the election. Labour can continue to try to ignore the issue and shout about "nothing to see here" but it's not going away and it is hurting them.

None of whom have presented a shred of evidence themselves.

I think some have just been whipped up into a frenzy by what they read in the papers. Others have ulterior motives.

All it takes is for me to change my mind is for somebody to produce some actual evidence. If there is some, why has nobody presented it yet?

I'm sure there are some anti-semites in the labour party. It is inevtiable, after all they have a membership of 400k. But why has nobody presented evidence of it being a) inherent and b) not being dealt with? All we have is claims.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 11:37:43
My biggest concern is that Katie Hopkins is set to follow through on a promise to pose topless if we didn’t leave by today

That would indeed be a Halloween fright


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 11:48:59
The closest I have seen of evidence is Corbyn making a speech which referred to a certain section of Jews as zionists.

But there is a section of Jews that fall under that category, and he was clearly speaking about those specific people. Instead, it is made out that he used the term in a derogatory manner and he was applying the term to all Jews.

It's bullshit - he literally used the term as it was meant to be used. It is other people that interpreted it to mean something else.

The press had a good time with that one. And I think that some of those in his own party that were using it as a stick to hit him with knew themselves that it was bullshit, only it's in their own best interests to jump on the band-wagon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 11:52:20
Corbys on fire today, he’s going after the tax dodgers and dodgy landlords and going to pull down a corrupt system, sounds great, who’s in charge? Oh him and McDonnell? Hmm


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 11:56:15
Not surprisingly Labour's Jewish affiliate are not backing the election campaign, rightly so as far as I'm concerned...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/general-elec... (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/general-elec...)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 11:59:38
The closest I have seen of evidence is Corbyn making a speech which referred to a certain section of Jews as zionists.

But there is a section of Jews that fall under that category, and he was clearly speaking about those specific people. Instead, it is made out that he used the term in a derogatory manner and he was applying the term to all Jews.

It's bullshit - he literally used the term as it was meant to be used. It is other people that interpreted it to mean something else.

The press had a good time with that one. And I think that some of those in his own party that were using it as a stick to hit him with knew themselves that it was bullshit, only it's in their own best interests to jump on the band-wagon.
I agree totally, I think most of the anti semitism that they are accused of is almost entirely based upon Corbyn condemning the Isreali attacks on Palestine.

In their minds if you do not agree with the attacks then by association that makes you anti semitic. No it doesn't, it makes you a humanitarian.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 12:00:18
None of whom have presented a shred of evidence themselves.

I think some have just been whipped up into a frenzy by what they read in the papers. Others have ulterior motives.

All it takes is for me to change my mind is for somebody to produce some actual evidence. If there is some, why has nobody presented it yet?

I'm sure there are some anti-semites in the labour party. It is inevtiable, after all they have a membership of 400k. But why has nobody presented evidence of it being a) inherent and b) not being dealt with? All we have is claims.

So basically it's fake news.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 12:02:08
So basically it's fake news.....

As far as I can tell... yes. Yes it is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 12:06:01
I agree totally, I think most of the anti semitism that they are accused of is almost entirely based upon Corbyn condemning the Isreali attacks on Palestine.

In their minds if you do not agree with the attacks then by association that makes you anti semitic. No it doesn't, it makes you a humanitarian.

I think that there is an element there of you also selecting the facts to suit your narrative.  The criticism that I note (reflecting my own narrative to be fair) is not that Corbyn and others condemn Jewish atrocities but that they fail to condemn Hamas etc. atrocities with even remotely the same zeal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 12:07:05
I agree totally, I think most of the anti semitism that they are accused of is almost entirely based upon Corbyn condemning the Isreali attacks on Palestine.
It's not, it's largely focused around Corbyn supporters failing to recognise the distinction between legitimate criiticism of the Israeli govt (which is fucking appalling) and blurring into more general "Jewish conspiracy" territory. The left generally has long had a problem with this but failed to recognise it because "we're anti-racist so we can't possibly be anti-semitic". The criticism of Corbyn is that he fails to deal with it because it's coming from his allies and supporters (and that possibly he doesn't recognise where the boundary lies either- NB not my view personally).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 12:12:01
I think that there is an element there of you also selecting the facts to suit your narrative.  The criticism that I note (reflecting my own narrative to be fair) is not that Corbyn and others condemn Jewish atrocities but that they fail to condemn Hamas etc. atrocities with even remotely the same zeal.

So, therefore, he's an antisemite?  

I'm (considerably) more critical of Israel than Palestine myself. Does that make me an antisemite as well?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 12:17:55
As far as I can tell... yes. Yes it is.

Ok, a fair response to my rather sarcastic jibe.

I can't quote chapter & verse on evidence and not sure I have the energy to try, but my understanding is that that a number of people have reported being harassed, insulted, threatened within labour party meetings.  

My understanding is also that where there has been written evidence the Labour party has been slow to act, have been very reluctant to expel them, and when forced to do so have readmitted fairly quickly.  You may challenge me on that and I'm hoping that someone else will provide some factual background.  I'm particularly thinking of some woman in a senior-ish admin post who was slowly expelled and quickly readmitted last year.

I do agree that the racism in the tory ranks is far worse and far less reported.  If labour consider that they are less bad than the tories then most reasonable people would surely agree.  But they could do better.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 12:20:41
but my understanding is that that a number of people have reported being harassed, insulted, threatened within labour party meetings.  


 I would not be at all surprised if it does happen. They have more than 400,000 members. Any group of that size will have bigots of all flavours.

The question is really whether or not it is more prevalent than in other groups per capita, and an investigation by Home Affairs Select Committee says not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 12:22:54
So, therefore, he's an antisemite?  

I'm (considerably) more critical of Israel than Palestine myself. Does that make me an antisemite as well?

But the implication I draw there is that you do readily criticise Hamas on the much less frequent occasions when you consider their actions merit it.

The charge levelled at Corbyn and others is that they go silent at that point.  Rather like the Ulster Unionists and Sinn Fein both roundly condemned half of the sectarian violence in NI.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 12:27:40
I would be very surprised if the anti semitism issue has much of an impact on the voting intentions of many when it comes to Labour in the election.  They have much bigger problems, namely being out of step with a core of their support in the Northern towns around Brexit, which is not helped by the leader essentially leading a party policy that is the inverse of his own natural beliefs on the matter.  Like it or not, that single issue will have a huge impact on the election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 12:31:39
I would not be at all surprised if it does happen. They have more than 400,000 members. Any group of that size will have bigots of all flavours.

The question is really whether or not it is more prevalent than in other groups per capita, and an investigation by Home Affairs Select Committee says not.

The HASC also noted that leadership's lack of action risked lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionally antisemitic. Which rather supports the view that this is all rather self inflicted.

As every thinking person knows polls can say whatever you want them to say, so to counter from Wiki as I cannot be arsed to look elsewhere.

In September 2018, a Survation survey conducted for The Jewish Chronicle found that 85.9% of British Jews considered Jeremy Corbyn antisemitic, and 85.6% considered the Labour Party to have "high" or "very high" levels of antisemitism within the party's members and elected representatives. This compares to 1.7% and 6.1% for Theresa May and the Conservative Party respectively. This was an increase from 69% who considered the party to have "high" or "very high" levels of antisemitism in 2017.

In May 2016, a YouGov poll found that 49% of Labour members felt that the party did not have a problem with antisemitism, 47% agreed that it was a problem, but "no worse than in other parties, while 5% thought that antisemitism is a bigger problem in Labour than in other parties. In March 2018, a poll showed 77% of Labour members believed the charges of antisemitism to be deliberately exaggerated to undermine the leader or stop criticism of Israel, while 19% said it was a serious issue. However, a July 2019 poll by YouGov amongst Labour Party members found that 70% of members thought that antisemitism in the party was a "genuine" problem.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 12:36:38
I would be very surprised if the anti semitism issue has much of an impact on the voting intentions of many when it comes to Labour in the election.  They have much bigger problems, namely being out of step with a core of their support in the Northern towns around Brexit, which is not helped by the leader essentially leading a party policy that is the inverse of his own natural beliefs on the matter.  Like it or not, that single issue will have a huge impact on the election.

I cannot find it now, but there was some research a while back that suggested that the whole Labour northern voter is strongly brexit was actually a bit of a myth.

As for the issue going forward I note that much is being made by the right of the need for the Tories to engage with 'Workington Man' in this election. Having spent some time working in and living just outside Workington I cannot see what the Tories could do or promise to gain a lot of support there, they are genuinely hated in what is possibly one of the most left behind places in the Country.

However, whilst the seat was won by Labour in 2017 with 50%+ of the vote, the Tory gains in that election were almost entirely down to the collapse of the UKIP vote, and I can see them voting for Farage again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 12:37:17
I would be very surprised if the anti semitism issue has much of an impact on the voting intentions of many when it comes to Labour in the election.  They have much bigger problems, namely being out of step with a core of their support in the Northern towns around Brexit, which is not helped by the leader essentially leading a party policy that is the inverse of his own natural beliefs on the matter.  Like it or not, that single issue will have a huge impact on the election.

This election is supposed to be about Brexit.... roughly, get Tories and it will be Johnson's deal or no deal.  Get the economic hit.

Vote Labour, get a new deal negoatiated and put to a referendum including remain.

Vote Lib Dem, revoke Art 50, and remain


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 12:40:15
One thing that puzzles me in recent UK elections?

Its generally accepted that young professional people tend to be more centralist or left leaning, so why are the parties that support those PoV so crap compared to those at the right in using technology and social media to get their point of view across, I am possibly being naive but why cannot the centre/left use its supporters who one would expect to be much more clued up on 'modern' methods to influence the vote - bluntly why isn't there a left wing CA?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 12:41:24
I would not be at all surprised if it does happen. They have more than 400,000 members. Any group of that size will have bigots of all flavours.

The question is really whether or not it is more prevalent than in other groups per capita, and an investigation by Home Affairs Select Committee says not.

Agreed that no-one should condemn an entire movement based on the unauthorised actions of a small minority.  However you surely can legitimately criticise the movement if they fail to act swiftly and decisively when it occurs?

Child molester priests in a Catholic Church with a billion followers is sadly inevitable.  Shielding them until the publicity forced them to do something is what really attracted the criticism of the church hierarchy.

I'm sure you're right re the Select Committee.  Slightly cheap point by me, but is "we're no worse than the Tories" really what Labour should be aiming for?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 13:13:09
Full marks to the Brexit rioters for rioting so quietly and considerately that you'd barely know they were there #quietRiot


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 13:15:10
Full marks to the Brexit rioters for rioting so quietly and considerately that you'd barely know they were there #quietRiot
In the words of the Kaiser Chiefs "I predict a quiet".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 13:25:40
Full marks to the Brexit rioters for rioting so quietly and considerately that you'd barely know they were there #quietRiot

(https://www.national-preservation.com/attachments/75f13d31-b26e-44b2-bcab-2d9d8aef43b5-jpeg.47584/)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 14:03:32
What happens when people reach their 40's?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EINFmptWkAESK2X?format=png&name=4096x4096)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 14:09:36
What happens when people reach their 40's?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EINFmptWkAESK2X?format=png&name=4096x4096)

I'm going in the other direction.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 14:09:56
What happens when people reach their 40's?
They have assets to protect and a mortgage to pay off


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 14:11:30
And a looming reliance on the NHS - which is strange.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 14:20:56
I'm going in the other direction.

I know plenty of people in the veteran age range and they tend to still be left wing or very left wing, similarly I have plenty of pub discussions with younger fellas, who are driven by the ideas alt right in America with the likes of Jordan Peterson, being some sort of guru


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 14:38:17
I'm going in the other direction.
I think I am too. I have always favoured the left, my dad was a shop steward and a proper old school leftie.

As I have got older I see more and more inequality and greed from right wing capitalism, the gradual privatization of the NHS for profit and not for improvement, something I have relied upon a lot in recent years, with an American style health insurance I have no doubt I would not be here now being that I am in the bottom couple of % based on income.

I think it was just after the poll tax riots of 1990 that was the first time as a 24 year old that I even genuinely considered how politics affected me and how the Conservatives only ever look after themselves and the inequality in our society.

The rich get richer and the poor and sick (how I see myself) always seems to get poorer and sicker.

Thats it in a nutshell for me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 14:40:38
Just for completeness...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EINFnthXsAIlnKU?format=png&name=4096x4096)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 14:48:49
Just for completeness...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EINFnthXsAIlnKU?format=png&name=4096x4096)

That's one that you might not expect.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 14:56:33
Just for completeness...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EINFnthXsAIlnKU?format=png&name=4096x4096)

You may think this is obvious but just to be sure,  I assume that this is solely covering projected voting intentions for Dec 12th and not  the 'normal' voting pattern of various demographics at a General Election?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 15:01:46
You may think this is obvious but just to be sure,  I assume that this is solely covering projected voting intentions for Dec 12th and not  the 'normal' voting pattern of various demographics at a General Election?

Bloody hell, you with your questions, I had to trawl back to find the source there!  ;) :D

Yep its December 2019 intentions https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/10/31/2019-general-election-demographics-dividing-britai


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 15:12:34
Just for completeness...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EINFnthXsAIlnKU?format=png&name=4096x4096)

Cutting back on education spending makes good Tory sense.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 15:13:53
Bloody hell, you with your questions,

Sorry, I'm recently retired!  I'm off out now so no more pestering.

The main surprise there for me are the LD & Brexit votes.  I would have expected both of them to be more pronounced demographically.

I do wonder if potential LD support has been impacted by misgivings about them going for an outright revoke rather than a second referendum.  I base that on a sample of one extremely intelligent and likeable voter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 16:07:29
That's one that you might not expect.
Well, perhaps not. The highly educated are probably in well paid jobs and so can afford to vote Labour.

The less educated have aspirations to earn more and see the Tories as more likely to help them achieve that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 16:13:34
What happens when people reach their 40's?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EINFmptWkAESK2X?format=png&name=4096x4096)

People get wiser with age  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 16:17:15

The less educated have aspirations to earn more and see the Tories as more likely to help them achieve that.

They'd need an education if that's what they believe. It's the Tories that keep on slashing education funding and introducing fees etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 16:27:44
What happens when people reach their 40's?

Wealth. And the prospect of a Corbyn assault on pension relief/State pension and inheritance tax. 
Which is what would worry about in voting Labour.

Brexit muddies the waters though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 16:38:59
They'd need an education if that's what they believe. It's the Tories that keep on slashing education funding and introducing fees etc.

Makes sense to slash the education funding if polling suggests that those with low educational value will vote for you anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 16:44:58
 It should be noted on Die in a Ditch Day, that HMG Tory government has so far wasted £6.3 Bn of our money on pointless Brexit things, like money to ferry opeators with no boats, TV ad campaigns for what happens tomorrow when we've left the EU, and minting before melting down commemorative coins.

 This added to the loss of investment caused by Johnson's fuck business approach to manufacturing, has already cost each voter a significant sum. 

If Johnson gets to put through his deal HMG's own figures reckon at least a 6% hit to GDP.

All of this so that Cameron could  pull back the UKIP tendency in his party, who now rule the roost and the "moderates" have either been purged or are scuttling before this election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 16:48:28
Look on the bright side Reg, their manifesto is being co-written by a former member of the Revolutionary Communist Party!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 16:58:18
Makes sense to slash the education funding if polling suggests that those with low educational value will vote for you anyway.

 :nod: My point exactly. The Republicans lead the way on this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 18:07:28
Could do without Trump sticking his oar in.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50252285

At least the Russkis will be a bit more subtle when they get round to it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 18:44:56
Could do without Trump sticking his oar in.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50252285

At least the Russkis will be a bit more subtle when they get round to it.
They will be already, but we won't get to know about it because Johnson is blocking the release of the report on Russian interference in UK elections. Wonder why? Surely not related to te significant donations to his campaign from Russian business interests?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 19:23:57
Could do without Trump sticking his oar in.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50252285

At least the Russkis will be a bit more subtle when they get round to it.
D. Trump: "It's not for us to have anything to do with your health system.  It's just about trade"

Soundbites from lying politicians who know that Farage, the BBC etc will not counter them and indeed that anyone who does will be too lengthy or boring to catch anyone's attention.

But get ready for more expensive medication from the USA (trade) and all sorts of US "requirements" and "enforcement mechanisms" that will tie the NHS's procurement hands (whose bulk buying helps make medicine purchase here SO MUCH CHEAPER than in the US).

The cunning label to look out for is "valuing innovation"

Be very aware that the US already has a detailed strategy to open our NHS to US Pharma.  The objective is not to make the acquisition of medicine cheaper for the NHS.   Trump waffle is for Turkeys living for the moment and having no interest in the destination of the lorry in which they are travelling.  

Here is the outline strategy upon which no one actually questions Johnson or Trump.

https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/Summary_of_U.S.-UK_Negotiating_Objectives.pdf

Obv. don't read it unless you really do believe what Trump and Johnson say about the NHS and trade deals with the USA.  They will impose a host of legal obligations on the UK - or we won't have a trade deal to speak of.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 19:27:09
D. Trump: "It's not for us to have anything to do with your health system.  It's just about trade"

Soundbites from lying politicians who know that Farage, the BBC etc will not counter them and indeed that anyone who does will be too lengthy or boring to catch anyone's attention.

But get ready for more expensive medication from the USA (trade) and all sorts of US "requirements" and "enforcement mechanisms" that will tie the NHS's procurement hands (whose bulk buying helps make medicine purchase here SO MUCH CHEAPER than in the US).

The cunning label to look out for is "valuing innovation"

Be very aware that the US already has a detailed strategy to open our NHS to US Pharma.  The objective is not to make the acquisition of medicine cheaper for the NHS.   Trump waffle is for Turkeys living for the moment and having no interest in the destination of the lorry in which they are travelling.  

Here is the outline strategy upon which no one actually questions Johnson or Trump.

https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/Summary_of_U.S.-UK_Negotiating_Objectives.pdf

Obv. don't read it unless you really do believe what Trump and Johnson say about the NHS and trade deals with the USA.  They will impose a host of legal obligations on the UK - or we won't have a trade deal to speak of.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/31/us-style-healthcare-nhs-patients-election-health


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 19:32:10
Dispatches did a programme this week about the secret meetings the govt have been having with US health officials and US pharma companies. Then of course Matt "Trust me" Hancock denied this was to try and open up the NHS to US Big Pharma and paying 1000s of times what we currently pay for medication. But didn't deny the meetings had taken place. It's cunning really, because if they can force the NHS to pay 1000s of times for branded drugs instead of the much cheaper generics, they won't have to privatise the NHS, it will just collapse under the cost of the medication.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 20:33:38
It's cunning really, because if they can force the NHS to pay 1000s of times for branded drugs instead of the much cheaper generics, they won't have to privatise the NHS, it will just collapse under the cost of the medication.

I guess that is part of the plan by those at the top? Easier to spin to the public something like "The rising cost of meds is bringing the NHS down. It's much better to go private."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, October 31, 2019, 21:05:00
imteresting further posts.

Looking at the other end of the health market, ie social care, there is already a two tier system for care homes.  Publicly funded v privately funded.  Whatever the great efforts of individual carers and nurses in both sectors, there is a distinctly longer life expectancy for residents in privately funded care homes over publicly funded ones.  

Good for the tax payer I guess.  

Without being political, I really do think some voters should be a helluva lot more sceptical and demanding with their questions.  And draw their own conclusions when they get but waffle and deflection with the answers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 1, 2019, 00:23:05
Not sure if this has been posted before but is a fair bit of light humour...

https://youtu.be/Z1vtJcXamSc


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, November 1, 2019, 07:51:17
I really do think some voters should be a helluva lot more sceptical and demanding with their questions.  And draw their own conclusions when they get but waffle and deflection with the answers.

By "some voters" I assume that you mean "some other voters".  Not you because you're just fine.

And I imagine you also primarily mean voters who don't currently share your views but would do if only they applied the same level of wisdom, knowledge and immaculate objectivity that you do.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 1, 2019, 08:15:12
By "some voters" I assume that you mean "some other voters".  Not you because you're just fine.

And I imagine you also primarily mean voters who don't currently share your views but would do if only they applied the same level of wisdom, knowledge and immaculate objectivity that you do.

It's entirely possible for people to hold extreme views which are wildly out of kilter with the mainstream, perhaps becasue they haven't thought about it enough.

Look, along with LL you've done it with fracking...

Quote
But everyone (I think) recognises that we cannot eliminate our need for fossil fuel at this point.  And from an ecological, financial and political viewpoint I'd rather get that fuel from Lancashire than Russia.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Friday, November 1, 2019, 09:46:21
Not sure if this has been posted before but is a fair bit of light humour...

https://youtu.be/Z1vtJcXamSc

Their Monster Crash one with Rees-Mogg and Johnson was good too, I can't find it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 1, 2019, 09:48:28
They will be already, but we won't get to know about it because Johnson is blocking the release of the report on Russian interference in UK elections. Wonder why? Surely not related to te significant donations to his campaign from Russian business interests?

Private Eye have for months been looking into the activities of Ehud Sheleg, who is the largest Tory donor at the moment and also the Tory party treasurer.

He seems to have a rather murky financial history and very close links and ties to the Russians.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 1, 2019, 09:49:13
Their Monster Crash one with Rees-Mogg and Johnson was good too, I can't find it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j_CxQFziFU


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 1, 2019, 09:50:04
Their Monster Crash one with Rees-Mogg and Johnson was good too, I can't find it.
Here you go, goaty
https://youtu.be/-j_CxQFziFU


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 1, 2019, 10:40:58
Ahh nooo a double Monster Crash! Could be an omen?  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Friday, November 1, 2019, 10:44:47
Fuck me, we really do have some wet lefties on here 😂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Friday, November 1, 2019, 10:48:09
Boris & Farage will get the big majority at the next election, and that Marxist cunt Jezzer will be confined to the political dustbin where he belongs.

One thing is certain, Swindon will vote Tory again to the disappointment of a few bellends on here.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 1, 2019, 10:52:12
Please don't feed the troll.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Friday, November 1, 2019, 10:54:48
shouldn’t you be rubbing peanut butter into Paul D’s buttocks?

Please don’t open my echo chamber... PLEASE! 😂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Friday, November 1, 2019, 11:00:26
Even Jezzers own brother thinks he’s a bellend...

https://youtu.be/grtV811cURU

Swindon’s very own Carl. No doubt the 6 Marxist of you on here will cry “he’s a wacist”, “he said he’d rape Jess Phillips”



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 1, 2019, 11:03:32
Is Hobodan that young lad they planted on Question Time last night? Heavy use of the term Marxist. Uncanny.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, November 1, 2019, 11:11:02
I think Sarah Church will beat Buckland this time around. The repulsive Tomlinson won't get beat though (how anyone can vote for that cunt is beyond me). It's a shame as the Labour candidate is a decent, compassionate human being and would be good for the town. She cares.

If you live in Swindon you only have to look around you to see the mess the Tories have made of it. Both MPs are useless, self serving morons and the council are diabolical too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Friday, November 1, 2019, 11:19:49
You think Swindon is a mess? I work in London, unstoppable labour heartlands. The suburbs of London make Swindon look like paradise, they are so rundown.

Anyone who thinks labour today are representative of the moderate Labour Party need a realty check. Labour has been infiltrated with extremists at the very top, and it’s no surprise the idealistic softies on here a backing them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, November 1, 2019, 11:38:44
You are funny.  Virginia Water & Richmond are on the edge are they?  I assume it's the Muslim invasion causing the problem, the one that stopping Christian White Polish from coming over will solve no doubt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, November 1, 2019, 11:42:53
Any comparison to London is irrelevant anyway. I'm comparing Swindon to Swindon. How it has changed under Tory rule. A rapid decline in recent years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, November 1, 2019, 11:48:26
How has Swindon declined under Tory rule? The town centre is a bit ropey but nothing else has got worse, most areas have stayed pretty much the same. Be interested to know how it would be any different under any other party. It wouldn't.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 1, 2019, 11:53:24
How has Swindon declined under Tory rule? The town centre is a bit ropey but nothing else has got worse, most areas have stayed pretty much the same.
Talk to anyone involved in social care, working with the elderly, kids etc. It's all been slashed to shit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, November 1, 2019, 12:11:14
How has Swindon declined under Tory rule? The town centre is a bit ropey but nothing else has got worse, most areas have stayed pretty much the same. Be interested to know how it would be any different under any other party. It wouldn't.

Open your eyes.  Those of us who live centrally now have to pay extra council tax to fund the Tory-invented new Parish Council.  We were promised this additional tax would fund grass-and-hedge-cutting, graffiti-removal, fly-tipping removal, litter-picking etc.
 
Absolutely no evidence of that at all - weeds growing a foot high in pavement cracks, graffiti tags everywhere, fly-tipping in the same spots week-in, week-out but nothing done to catch or deter the offenders.  I've lived in the same house for 16 years and its the relatively low-level stuff like this that taken collectively makes a place feel worse. 

It's definitely declined yet I'm paying significantly more council tax than ever before.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, November 1, 2019, 12:26:03
How has Swindon declined under Tory rule? The town centre is a bit ropey but nothing else has got worse, most areas have stayed pretty much the same. Be interested to know how it would be any different under any other party. It wouldn't.

Cuts to police numbers, closing gp practices, school staff cuts, social care cuts, children's centres gone, etc etc.

It would be different as we wouldn't have had austerity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Friday, November 1, 2019, 12:30:55
Even Jezzers own brother thinks he’s a bellend...

https://youtu.be/grtV811cURU

You didn't watch your own link did you?!

I'd not heard of his brother before but it's clear that he is supportive.

"My brother is the best person to negotiate a Brexit deal"
"My brother has a very, very good understanding of European politics"
"The powers that be a trying to stop him winning an election by surrounding it other things or having a Brexit election"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Friday, November 1, 2019, 12:41:18
Cuts to police numbers, closing gp practices, school staff cuts, social care cuts, children's centres gone, etc etc.

It would be different as we wouldn't have had austerity.

Do you really believe that we would have had no austerity at all after the financial collapse in 2008/2010 if anyone othrr than the Tory's had got in in the three election since



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 1, 2019, 12:53:05
Do you really believe that we would have had no austerity at all after the financial collapse in 2008/2010 if anyone othrr than the Tory's had got in in the three election since



Despite what many revisionists like to suggest, there would have been some austerity whoever was in power, one only has to look at the 2015 manifesto's and all advocate that cutting is needed.

What has set the Tory cuts aside is that a) they seem to have been ideologically rather than evidence driven (see what the UN guy said) and b) the deficit has actually gone through the roof despite the cuts, further emphasising that they have not been economically driven?

As for the question as to whether things are declining rough sleeping has gone through the roof!



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, November 1, 2019, 12:53:47
Do you really believe that we would have had no austerity at all after the financial collapse in 2008/2010 if anyone othrr than the Tory's had got in in the three election since



It would have been far less severe.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, November 1, 2019, 13:12:59
Do you really believe that we would have had no austerity at all after the financial collapse in 2008/2010 if anyone othrr than the Tory's had got in in the three election since

We would always have had austerity measures.

Under Labour/LD they would likely have been less severe (which I think may have proved to be an error)

Under Labour/LD they would likely have ended earlier (which I'm confident would have been exponentially better)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 1, 2019, 13:15:59
There's austerity.

And then there's Tory austerity (while giving tax cuts to their rich mates).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, November 1, 2019, 13:23:35
We would always have had austerity measures.

Under Labour/LD they would likely have been less severe (which I think may have proved to be an error)

Under Labour/LD they would likely have ended earlier (which I'm confident would have been exponentially better)


The Lib Dems were part of the coalition that implemented austerity.
Their role shouldn't be forgotten. The voting record in the commons of their now leader should also be noted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 1, 2019, 13:24:09
Is Hobodan that young lad they planted on Question Time last night? Heavy use of the term Marxist. Uncanny.

This guy, he's a working class lad don't you know....  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIRaGbYXUAAKKtr?format=png&name=900x900)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 1, 2019, 13:25:47
Interesting in the FT today

An analysis by the Financial Times of the opinion polls suggests Mr Johnson’s party is facing an electoral landscape hardly changed since the 2017 election was called. Labour was polling on 25 per cent on Tuesday, exactly the same level as when Mrs May called her snap vote. Worryingly for Mr Johnson, however, the Conservatives are significantly further behind than at the start of the last campaign. Whereas the Tories were polling 44 per cent on the day the previous election was called, they are currently projected to garner 36 per cent share of the vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 1, 2019, 13:33:39
This guy, he's a working class lad don't you know....  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIRaGbYXUAAKKtr?format=png&name=900x900)

That's the beaver! Straight out of the Paul Nuthall copybook. Looks a bit "Tomy Robinson" lite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 1, 2019, 13:36:44
As for the question as to whether things are declining rough sleeping has gone through the roof!
And so have the numbers of rough sleepers dying. There's been a 51% increase in homeless deaths since 2013 nationally and Swindon is currently running at a 50% higher death rate for the homeless than the national average. That should shame us all, there should be no need for anyone to be homeless in the UK in this day and age, much less dying on our streets


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Leggett on Friday, November 1, 2019, 13:37:57
Its amazing how quickly the 'Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser' bunch shut up when you present them with news articles about Thatcher's government negotating with the IRA on the down-low, whilst they were saying publicly they would never negotiate with terrorists...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 1, 2019, 13:38:23
I think I said it last time out and possibly when talk of another election reared it's head again. We're heading the same way in terms of election result; NOC/Hung Parliament


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 1, 2019, 13:46:52
Its amazing how quickly the 'Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser' bunch shut up when you present them with news articles about Thatcher's government negotating with the IRA on the down-low, whilst they were saying publicly they would never negotiate with terrorists...

As noted above the Tory Manifesto is being co-authored by Munira Mirza, who started out in the Revolutionary Communist Party who were very pro IRA, Claire Fox (now a Farage Ltd MEP along with 3 others) being the person most prominently associated with that. The group are still all linked via writing for the Spiked website.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Friday, November 1, 2019, 16:06:19
The Lib Dems were part of the coalition that implemented austerity.
Their role shouldn't be forgotten. The voting record in the commons of their now leader should also be noted.

Which makes their lurch to a one policy election all very odd


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 1, 2019, 17:01:44
Serious question, seeing as Farage is taking an opportunity to put himself in the limelight again...

If NF is so confident of achieving much of the Tory vote from seats across the United Kingdom, why then are Tory MPs defecting to any party (to my knowledge) other than the Brexit Party?

Maybe I'm missing something but surely if you're so confident of taking seats, why haven't hard line Conservative Brexiteers defected to the BP already?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 1, 2019, 17:05:57
Serious question, seeing as Farage is taking an opportunity to put himself in the limelight again...

If NF is so confident of achieving much of the Tory vote from seats across the United Kingdom, why then are Tory MPs defecting to any party (to my knowledge) other than the Brexit Party?

Maybe I'm missing something but surely if you're so confident of taking seats, why haven't hard line Conservative Brexiteers defected to the BP already?
Because as Ian Duncan Smith said earlier this week "We are the Brexit Party now". They have effectively completed their hijack of the Tories from the Conservative and Unionist Party into a hard right English Nationalist Party


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, November 2, 2019, 12:21:50
Because as Ian Duncan Smith said earlier this week "We are the Brexit Party now". They have effectively completed their hijack of the Tories from the Conservative and Unionist Party into a hard right English Nationalist Party

Well yes, in all but name. Except technically they are still two (and I use it loosely) different parties.

Farage is purely just doing this to keep himself in the limelight. How he spins it is his prerogative. The longer "Brexit" goes on - the longer he picks up a nice salary from the EU.

It would be laughable if it weren't so ridiculous. He wants Brexit to remain a farce so all focus can be on him. With quotes like "we should be out already...", "Hard Brexit is the only way.", "We should form a coalition with Tories" and similar words that have and likely will continue to come out of his over privileged, rancid gob.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, November 3, 2019, 11:47:51
Well yes, in all but name. Except technically they are still two (and I use it loosely) different parties.

Farage is purely just doing this to keep himself in the limelight. How he spins it is his prerogative. The longer "Brexit" goes on - the longer he picks up a nice salary from the EU.

It would be laughable if it weren't so ridiculous. He wants Brexit to remain a farce so all focus can be on him. With quotes like "we should be out already...", "Hard Brexit is the only way.", "We should form a coalition with Tories" and similar words that have and likely will continue to come out of his over privileged, rancid gob.

So Fartage, isn't going to stand as a candidate in December.... apparently the Tories have offered him a peerage to buy him off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, November 3, 2019, 12:54:45
So Fartage, isn't going to stand as a candidate in December.... apparently the Tories have offered him a peerage to buy him off.

Well if that's his trade off, it's an easy buy out for the Tories. Although him becoming a peer we would all know about it. The BBC would masturbate for months, no years off it. QT would get in a lather putting up tittles like "Lord Farage of Orpingtonshire".

It's fucking laughable that a 'leader' of a political party won't be standing. How can anyone take it seriously if the guy at the helm won't stand? It's pure spin and those in public who are gullible will fall for it again and again. Clever (to a degree) from Farage. It is about time he fucked off into the political shadows though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, November 3, 2019, 13:07:26
Like Trump, Farage is a campaigner rather than a politician.  Although in Trump's case, he managed somehow to get himself elected and has probably been regretting it ever since.  Makes sense to me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Private Fraser on Sunday, November 3, 2019, 13:11:42
 :)

https://twitter.com/politicsjoe_uk/status/1190959945199620096?s=21



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, November 3, 2019, 13:12:26
Like Trump, Farage is a campaigner rather than a politician.  Although in Trump's case, he managed somehow to get himself elected and has probably been regretting it ever since.  Makes sense to me.

Oh I do get what he's about. It's more so that a chunk of the public continually fall for this bullshit. It's like someone who repeatedly goes back to their dog shit partner, who hasn't the slightest interest in them or their well being.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, November 3, 2019, 14:58:52
So Fartage, isn't going to stand as a candidate in December.... apparently the Tories have offered him a peerage to buy him off.
I wonder, is it a precondition to being a leading Brexiteer to be a massive fucking bottler as well as a liar, or just a coincidence that they all are?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 4, 2019, 11:00:36
Johnson still refusing to sign off release of Select Committee report on Russian interference in UK politics as questions emerge over his chief adviser's years spent working in Russia. What have they got to hide?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50275383


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 4, 2019, 11:34:36
So Fartage, isn't going to stand as a candidate in December.... apparently the Tories have offered him a peerage to buy him off.

Which is an admission of a criminal offence?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 4, 2019, 11:44:46
Which is an admission of a criminal offence?

I doubt it....  any old dross can be dumped in the Lords. Look at your lot over a hundred peers, and a dozen or so MP's.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 4, 2019, 13:43:08
Johnson still refusing to sign off release of Select Committee report on Russian interference in UK politics as questions emerge over his chief adviser's years spent working in Russia. What have they got to hide?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50275383
Now there's a surprise, No 10 have decided not to permit publication of the report into Russian interference. Speculation on twitter that it contains evidence of collusion between Johnson and/or Cummings with Russian interests during the Leave campaign  and since and that's why they're trying to cover it up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Monday, November 4, 2019, 13:59:13
Now there's a surprise, No 10 have decided not to permit publication of the report into Russian interference. Speculation on twitter that it contains evidence of collusion between Johnson and/or Cummings with Russian interests during the Leave campaign  and since and that's why they're trying to cover it up.
Panorama is said to be covering something on this, with investigations into Cummings' and Milne's Russian connections. I wouldn't be surprised to see parts of the report leaking out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, November 4, 2019, 22:54:40
Dispatches did a piece on Cummings tonight.

Hi, I'm Dominic Cummings, I'm such a rebel...I wear a hoodie, stand on tables and punch holes in polystyrene tiles. It just reminded me of certain knobheads from secondary school. Except he's not 12. I wonder if he has a severe mental impairment that means he is locked in nostalgic procrastination.

If he's such a "mastermind", with ingenious campaign slogans such as "Vote Leave" and "Get Brexit Done", it really speaks volumes as to to what an imbecile BJ is.

I mean Cummings; he's soo rebellious *swoon*. :suicide:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 09:14:19
Magic money tree has shed another £120m for a vanity project then https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/05/government-pushes-ahead-plans-festival-of-brexit?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 09:19:52
Had to turn the Today Programme over this morning.  It's all getting too much.  This morning it was Gove.  The strategy/memo from Cummings clearly sets out that the way to win the election is to attack Corbyn at all times.  Paint him as a pantomime villain.  Project Fear Corbyn.

I wonder whether this is wise.  I'm no fan of Corbyn either, but the strategy could backfire horribly, as it did in 2017.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 09:24:23
Me too.

Gove came across as the slimey shit he is. Answering every question on the Tory policy with essentially the equivalent of 'yeah but Corbyn smells'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 09:55:02
Had to turn the Today Programme over this morning.  It's all getting too much.  This morning it was Gove.  The strategy/memo from Cummings clearly sets out that the way to win the election is to attack Corbyn at all times.  Paint him as a pantomime villain.  Project Fear Corbyn.
And me. Not so much the Corbyn stuff as just the abject refusal to answer even the simplest of questions, he just makes my skin crawl. And it's pretty clear that burying the Russian interference report is in full-on cover-up mode now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 10:10:04
And me. Not so much the Corbyn stuff as just the abject refusal to answer even the simplest of questions, he just makes my skin crawl. And it's pretty clear that burying the Russian interference report is in full-on cover-up mode now.

Probably at the outset of their careers for the likes of Johnson and Gove, there is some sort of perceived threshold for their lies which they feel they can't go beyond, but as things develop, they discover actually there isn't.

As long as you have the backing of right wing press and BBC, it's carte blanche. Feed the prejudices of about 30% or so of the voters and under FPTP you'll get in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 10:16:54
What worries me is whether 'the British people' are actually going to wake up to the truth in time. Although I am  LD supporter, I don't at the moment care which opposition party anyone votes for provided it leads to the defeat of the most corrupt, inept and destructive government we have had to endure in my (quite long) lifetime. (That does not imply that every Tory candidate falls into that category, but they are enabling, ironically in the context of Brexit, a team of unelected and deeply divisive bureaucrats destroy our 'one nation's. Political disagreement and argument is what democracy is about. That is what is being destroyed at the moment.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 10:18:24
What worries me is whether 'the British people' are actually going to wake up to the truth in time. Although I am  LD supporter, I don't at the moment care which opposition party anyone votes for provided it leads to the defeat of the most corrupt, inept and destructive government we have had to endure in my (quite long) lifetime. (That does not imply that every Tory candidate falls into that category, but they are enabling, ironically in the context of Brexit, a team of unelected and deeply divisive bureaucrats destroy our 'one nation's. Political disagreement and argument is what democracy is about. That is what is being destroyed at the moment.
True dat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 10:32:34
I sometimes feel sorry for politicians doing interviews as it's an absolute minefield and you know any good answers you give will go nowhere whilst the slightest mistake or panic will go viral (hello Diane Abbott, please ignore 30+ years of public service and accept being mocked for not being particularly good at mental maths under pressure)

On the other hand, Jacob Rees-Mogg has decided to blame people who literally followed the official advice and burned to death for lacking common sense. Good fucking lord. Even if you begin to think that you don't say it on pure empathy grounds surely?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 10:52:00
On the other hand, Jacob Rees-Mogg has decided to blame people who literally followed the official advice and burned to death for lacking common sense. Good fucking lord. Even if you begin to think that you don't say it on pure empathy grounds surely?
I sometimes wonder if he's actually human. Victim blaming the victims of Grenfell, by anyone, is jaw-dropping, much less one of the leading figures in the government headed by the man who laid off thousands of London firefighters in the run-up to Grenfell.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 10:55:54
I don't understand how anybody with an ounce of decency and compassion would vote Conservative. Trouble is we live in very selfish times and many people are incredibly stupid too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 11:03:46
I don't understand how anybody with an ounce of decency and compassion would vote Conservative. Trouble is we live in very selfish times and many people are incredibly stupid too.

Amen to that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 11:07:38
Quote from: Arriba
I don't understand how anybody with an ounce of decency and compassion would vote Conservative. Trouble is we live in very selfish times and many people are incredibly stupid too.

it's well muddy for some with brexit mixed in.

equally so with Corbyn and labour really.

personally I'd rather chop my knob off with a rusty breaknife than vote Tory right now (or ever again probably)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 11:14:48
I don't understand how anybody with an ounce of decency and compassion would vote Conservative.


I’ve also never understood how a normal working class person looks at Eton-educated, multi-millionaires and thinks “yep, they’ve got my back”.

I’m not pro-Labour. But I’m definitely anti-Tory. Quite why staunch working class places like Swindon, Portsmouth and Plymouth vote in Tory MPs truly baffles me. What is they see in them that I’m missing? Genuinely interested to know.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 11:15:39
personally I'd rather chop my knob off with a rusty breaknife than vote Tory right now (or ever again probably)
Oooh, that's an Audrey moment right there. Saving that one :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 11:20:41
I don't understand how anybody with an ounce of decency and compassion would vote Conservative.

Completely.

I despair that we live in a country where people like Rees-Mogg are able to occupy positions of influence.  Quite how he thinks he's qualified to comment on the lives of people he can have no understand of is beyond me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 11:22:24
I’ve also never understood how a normal working class person looks at Eton-educated, multi-millionaires and thinks “yep, they’ve got my back”.

I’m not pro-Labour. But I’m definitely anti-Tory. Quite why staunch working class places like Swindon, Portsmouth and Plymouth vote in Tory MPs truly baffles me. What is they see in them that I’m missing? Genuinely interested to know.

Makes you realise that the feudal system never really went away.  It's changed, fair enough.  But the working classes still seem to know their place in modern Britain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 11:28:25
I’ve also never understood how a normal working class person looks at Eton-educated, multi-millionaires and thinks “yep, they’ve got my back”.

I’m not pro-Labour. But I’m definitely anti-Tory. Quite why staunch working class places like Swindon, Portsmouth and Plymouth vote in Tory MPs truly baffles me. What is they see in them that I’m missing? Genuinely interested to know.

I can see how people looked at previous Conservative leaders and decided that they were competent, and sometimes I think competence should come ahead of complete agreement with policy or shared life experience. But would struggle to make that argument for Johnson.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 11:29:05
Completely.

I despair that we live in a country where people like Rees-Mogg are able to occupy positions of influence.  Quite how he thinks he's qualified to comment on the lives of people he can have no understand of is beyond me.
A massive sense of entitlement, same as his boss, Johnson.

Getting back to the "I don't understand how anyone can possibly vote Tory" topic, while I'm unlikely to ever vote Tory (despite what Reg might think of my apparently alarmingly right-wing tendencies :) ), I can certainly see why people would vote Tory. There's an element of confirmation bias in all these things, so the things that some of us might look at and find horrific, others kind of automatically discount as "Just the way they are" or "Media bias" or just less important than what they see as being the positive elements of their chosen party. The same happens the other way round - there's plenty of people who can't get past photos of Corbyn with Sinn Fein leaders at IRA funerals or sharing a platform with Hamas and that's it, it's a full stop for them and they literally cannot understand how anyone could vote for him. But Labour supporters will discount that, even if they don't like it, because it's more important to them to save the NHS or get the Tories out. Everyone does it. But the fact that more and more people increasingly can't understand how half the nation could hold a different perspective from their own is very worrying IMO. It's a corrosive divisiveness that is undermining our democracy which is in large part based on consensus and tolerance. We are losing both


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 11:30:31
I’ve also never understood how a normal working class person looks at Eton-educated, multi-millionaires and thinks “yep, they’ve got my back”.

I’m not pro-Labour. But I’m definitely anti-Tory. Quite why staunch working class places like Swindon, Portsmouth and Plymouth vote in Tory MPs truly baffles me. What is they see in them that I’m missing? Genuinely interested to know.

Places like Plymuff and Pompey are highly dependent on the Navy. Tory party is normally viewed as being more pro military.

In Swindon the 2008 bankers global crash, meant that many of the new home owners expecially in N Swindon felt the pinch.

For this reason they don't want to risk having to pay more in taxes, being prepared to put up with public squalor as long as it doesn't get in the way of a 50" TV or SUV etc

Of course the irony is they do pay more in taxes anyway, so that for example bankers can be bailed out, employers can be compensated for low wages by tax credits, and the very wealthy and Tory MP's and no doubt some from other parties can carry on with tax avoidance schemes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 12:45:37
I don't understand how anybody with an ounce of decency and compassion would vote Conservative. Trouble is we live in very selfish times and many people are incredibly stupid too.


Because politics involves humans.

Every left wing economic policy has at it's roots the notion that working together for a common cause can create a better society.  Take Communism - the principles seems fair enough, no job is any more important than another and the wealth is shared equally.  Two major issues arise - first, if the people living at your border don;t take this approach, people see other people getting ahead and look on with envy, second, someone has to be making decisions, so as much as no one job is worth more, there are some that rise to the top, pure greed finds a way - opulence is preferred to common middle of the roadness.  Humans mean it can never work.

On the flip side, pure free market economics is love by the old right wing, letting people live by their own wits will drive people to do better, and by doing so they'll bring other along by providing employment.  Competition will drive companies to become efficient and provide better services.  We all do better (but some more so than others) if we let the best rise to the top.  The problem here is greed, many of those who reach the top want more, they are insatiable and you get monopolies, who realise they have the upper hand.  The owners horde their wealth rather than reinvest it for others.  Eventually people becomes resentful and some are left completely behind.  Again, doomed to failure if left to it's own devices because you can't trust humans.

We don't have either extreme, so people are around the edges of both of these.  Take the USA, the concept of the NHS is still only supported by less than 30% of people here - the idea of having to pay for someone else's medical bill drives them crazy, because they've had years of being brought up in a free market approach.  There are probably some people voting Tory who equally look at Social Care in all it's forms as giving a handout, creating people who would rather live for that than strive for personal betterment.  They cannot understand why they should give up their hard earned money to support others.  The problem again is humans - we've all seen someone who is indeed lazy, and while not living it up, is no doubt going to be living the rest of their life on someone else's pay cheque.  Just one person justifies the Free Market view.  On the other side of the coin, we've all seen people who are rolling in wealth and did nothing to gain that or help anyone else up along the way.  We can't understand how these people can be allowed to live like that while others have been given poor opportunities and had little chance of making much of their life.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 12:47:35
He lost me about 2 mins in.... Tim loves a conspiracy.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=151&v=qFcYI22Ke3I


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 12:48:31
For this reason they don't want to risk having to pay more in taxes, being prepared to put up with public squalor as long as it doesn't get in the way of a 50" TV or SUV etc

IMO it not the fear of more tax, its about doing it "fairly" (which is difficult as its subjective).

And yes there is a degree of selfisness in that, I agree.

I can give a couple of examples of the above that puts me off Corbyn - namely a) the chances of pension tax relief/state pension irrosion b) the aleged lower limits on inhertance tax.

People shouldn't be unfairly treated for being more successful.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 13:49:03
Nothing has really changed. The tested route of "Divide & Conquer" will hand you the keys to power.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 13:52:30
IMO it not the fear of more tax, its about doing it "fairly" (which is difficult as its subjective).

And yes there is a degree of selfisness in that, I agree.

I can give a couple of examples of the above that puts me off Corbyn - namely a) the chances of pension tax relief/state pension irrosion b) the aleged lower limits on inhertance tax.

People shouldn't be unfairly treated for being more successful.

IDS wants pensions to kick in at 75, inheritance tax was at about 300K..... Tories bumped it up to a mill. The likes of Grosvenor avoid it all together.

The majority of punters will be doing well to see anything like 300K come their way.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/pension-age-rise-iain-duncan-smith-state-centre-for-social-justice-pension-age-75-a9071396.html

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/aug/11/inheritance-tax-why-the-new-duke-of-westminster-will-not-pay-billions


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 14:10:20
Farage's cash cow falling apart in first few days of campaigning

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-brexit-party-disarray-20814948


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 14:26:24
The brexit party only represent those who think that a hard no deal Brexit is the answer. They don't have any other policies at all. They're a fucking joke quite frankly


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 14:45:43
I don't understand why more people are not kicking off about Boris suppressing the Russia report.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 15:15:20
Good, interesting, balanced post - cheers


Because politics involves humans.

Every left wing economic policy has at it's roots the notion that working together for a common cause can create a better society.  Take Communism - the principles seems fair enough, no job is any more important than another and the wealth is shared equally.  Two major issues arise - first, if the people living at your border don;t take this approach, people see other people getting ahead and look on with envy, second, someone has to be making decisions, so as much as no one job is worth more, there are some that rise to the top, pure greed finds a way - opulence is preferred to common middle of the roadness.  Humans mean it can never work.

On the flip side, pure free market economics is love by the old right wing, letting people live by their own wits will drive people to do better, and by doing so they'll bring other along by providing employment.  Competition will drive companies to become efficient and provide better services.  We all do better (but some more so than others) if we let the best rise to the top.  The problem here is greed, many of those who reach the top want more, they are insatiable and you get monopolies, who realise they have the upper hand.  The owners horde their wealth rather than reinvest it for others.  Eventually people becomes resentful and some are left completely behind.  Again, doomed to failure if left to it's own devices because you can't trust humans.

We don't have either extreme, so people are around the edges of both of these.  Take the USA, the concept of the NHS is still only supported by less than 30% of people here - the idea of having to pay for someone else's medical bill drives them crazy, because they've had years of being brought up in a free market approach.  There are probably some people voting Tory who equally look at Social Care in all it's forms as giving a handout, creating people who would rather live for that than strive for personal betterment.  They cannot understand why they should give up their hard earned money to support others.  The problem again is humans - we've all seen someone who is indeed lazy, and while not living it up, is no doubt going to be living the rest of their life on someone else's pay cheque.  Just one person justifies the Free Market view.  On the other side of the coin, we've all seen people who are rolling in wealth and did nothing to gain that or help anyone else up along the way.  We can't understand how these people can be allowed to live like that while others have been given poor opportunities and had little chance of making much of their life.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 15:23:38
I’ve also never understood how a normal working class person looks at Eton-educated, multi-millionaires and thinks “yep, they’ve got my back”.
This is what the current Tory cabinet (Raab, Patel, Truss) think of British workers:

"Once they enter the workplace, the British are among the worst idlers in the world"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19300051

Don't see them putting that on the election posters


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 22:20:50
This is what the current Tory cabinet (Raab, Patel, Truss) think of British workers:

"Once they enter the workplace, the British are among the worst idlers in the world"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19300051

Don't see them putting that on the election posters

 "We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor."

Not only is that bollocks but what's the alternative?  Work yourself into an early grave to make rich people even richer?

Just confirms what I already thought - why on earth would normal working class people vote for those shower of c*nts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 07:20:01
I don't understand why more people are not kicking off about Boris suppressing the Russia report.
Comrade Boris, you mean?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 08:55:22
I don't understand how anybody with an ounce of decency and compassion would vote Conservative. Trouble is we live in very selfish times and many people are incredibly stupid too.


just out of interest, do you mean this particular Conservative offering or any Conservative ever?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 09:20:06
Yesterday in the Tory election campaign...

Rees-Mogg suggests that deaths were down to victims lack of common sense;
Bridgen suggests that Rees Mogg is cleverer than the Grenfell residents;
Cairns caught up in rape cover up;
They blatantly faked video of Starmer;
They refuse to publish report on Russian interference.

And yet they will still win.

Edit, shit I forgot....

Backing down on promise to allow vote on length of transition period, just about guaranteeing no deal departure next December if Johnsons capitulation passes;
Building 0 of 200k houses promised.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 09:21:45
But the fact that more and more people increasingly can't understand how half the nation could hold a different perspective from their own is very worrying IMO. It's a corrosive divisiveness that is undermining our democracy which is in large part based on consensus and tolerance. We are losing both

Sadly, you are spot on.

When the country voted for Brexit I thought that was as bad as we could get.  As usual I was wrong.  The last three years have exposed such appalling vitriol and intolerance within all of us, not just that other guy over there.  This is far more dangerous for our country than Remaining or Leaving.  Combine that with our rising level of appalling income inequality and we have the prospect of a divided nation for years to come.

My slender hope is that we get a hung parliament which forces a moderate left of centre coalition that has to compromise and work together in the national interest.  

Unfortunately that view makes me simultaneously a EU-loving traitor and a lying fascist.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 09:44:52
But the fact that more and more people increasingly can't understand how half the nation could hold a different perspective from their own is very worrying IMO. It's a corrosive divisiveness that is undermining our democracy which is in large part based on consensus and tolerance. We are losing both

The thing is say from 2000-2015 there was not a million miles between the parties in this country which make consensus fairly easy (even in 2015 the Labour manifesto was promoting a form of austerity), it was always fairly clear as a centrist that whichever of the big two got in they were unlikely to trash the economy or promote ideologically driven policies which would could potentiality lead to thousands on unnecessary deaths.

Now we have politics riven by hard line extremists on either side of the spectrum where purity and ideological cleanliness seems to trump just about everything,  ultimately a large proportion of the electorate has been entirely left behind in this process and are understandably getting a bit frustrated and pissed off about it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 09:54:13
Yesterday in the Tory election campaign...

Rees-Mogg suggests that deaths were down to victims lack of common sense;
Bridgen suggests that Rees Mogg is cleverer than the Grenfell residents;
Cairns caught up in rape cover up;
They blatantly faked video of Starmer;
They refuse to publish report on Russian interference.

And yet they will still win.

Edit, shit I forgot....

Backing down on promise to allow vote on length of transition period, just about guaranteeing no deal departure next December if Johnsons capitulation passes;
Building 0 of 200k houses promised.
You missed out:

Forced to pull adverts on Universal Credit after they were found to be misleading (that's taxpayers' money being used to lie to us)
Tried to get civil servants to do hostile analysis on Labour policies (again, abuse of taxpayers' resources for party political advantage)

Although to be fair it is quite difficult to keep up with the scale of the mendacity. That's just in one day. I wonder what's behind today's door in Dom's Advent Calendar of Blatant Lies and Shithousing?
#BritainDeservesBetter


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 09:59:05
The thing is say from 2000-2015 there was not a million miles between the parties in this country which make consensus fairly easy (even in 2015 the Labour manifesto was promoting a form of austerity), it was always fairly clear as a centrist that whichever of the big two got in they were unlikely to trash the economy or promote ideologically driven policies which would could potentiality lead to thousands on unnecessary deaths.

Now we have politics riven by hard line extremists on either side of the spectrum where purity and ideological cleanliness seems to trump just about everything,  ultimately a large proportion of the electorate has been entirely left behind in this process and are understandably getting a bit frustrated and pissed off about it!

It's fair to say that the Tories have lurched into far right territory, but Labour hasn't even produced a manifesto yet on which to judge. Certainly there was nothing in the 2017 version which would have bothered any mainstream Northen European social democrat.

We do know that the Lab position on Brexit, what obviously to you seems an extreme position, is renegotiate and then put to a referendum including remain.  However your lots position of ignore the 16 referendum and just rip up the Art 50 vote, you see as moderate?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 10:05:49
If he 'wasn't due to come and talk to us today' what was he doing in the Sky Studios, does he live there?

https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1192013743967932416


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 10:18:44
However your lots position

Jesus, I don't have a 'lot', I might have done previously but I am what one would consider a floating voter happy to vote for anyone who does not look like costing me my job or killing the population, one is not tied to one party all ones life you realise!

Corbyns 'renegotiated deal' is as dishonest as Johnson's, what is he going to renegotiate? He keep wittering on about workers rights and the environment (Which is all very laudable albeit very vague), however what is he going to do about the SM/CU etc the parts that will actually affect most of the electorate as much as the issues he is raising and being areas where the EU has been very firm and straight! Why should one give him a blank cheque?

One bloody day, Labour are going to finally realise that to get elected you have to appeal to the electorate rather than just insulting the non-believers, Blair got that and they got elected, will the penny ever drop?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 10:32:27
Jesus, I don't have a 'lot', I might have done previously but I am what one would consider a floating voter happy to vote for anyone who does not look like costing me my job of killing the population, one is not tied to one party all ones life you realise!

Corbyns 'renegotiated deal' is as dishonest as Johnson's, what is he going to renegotiate? He keep wittering on about workers rights and the environment (Which is all very laudable albeit very vague), however what is he going to do about the SM/CU etc the parts that will actually affect most of the electorate as much as the issues he is raising and being areas where the EU has been very firm and straight! Why should one give him a blank cheque?

One bloody day, Labour are going to finally realise that to get elected you have to appeal to the electorate rather than just insulting the non-believers, Blar got that and they got elected, will the penny ever drop?

I see.... it's always good to clarify your position, especially as someone who pontificates, it helps the reader get some sort of perspective.

At what point did you diverge from LibDemery?  Again you assume that Labour's manifesto won't appeal to the electorate, even though it's yet to be written.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 10:41:53
Again you assume that Labour's manifesto won't appeal to the electorate, even though it's yet to be written.
He's not talking about the manifesto, he's talking about Labour supporters, some possibly not a million miles away from here but probably I'd guess more broadly on Twitter etc, who go into attack dog mode at the merest suggestion of deviance from the one true word of St Jeremy and suggesting it might not be the best way to win over support from the floating voters Labour will need to get into government. Which may not be a top priority, seems many in Labour are happier to stay as a purist protest sect than actually trying to change anything?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 10:49:55
He's not talking about the manifesto, he's talking about Labour supporters, some possibly not a million miles away from here but probably I'd guess more broadly on Twitter etc, who go into attack dog mode at the merest suggestion of deviance from the one true word of St Jeremy and suggesting it might not be the best way to win over support from the floating voters Labour will need to get into government. Which may not be a top priority, seems many in Labour are happier to stay as a purist protest sect than actually trying to change anything?

I see.... I took this
Quote
Labour are going to finally realise that to get elected you have to appeal to the electorate
to mean policies.

FWIW I've no idea what goes on in the world of Twitter etc, it's always seemed like complete and utter bollocks to me.  However as an observation I would say that it's fairly obvious that Labour isn't a dictatorship and there are plenty of examples where what Corbyn thinks doesn't become policy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 11:18:13
I see.... I took this  to mean policies.

FWIW I've no idea what goes on in the world of Twitter etc, it's always seemed like complete and utter bollocks to me.  However as an observation I would say that it's fairly obvious that Labour isn't a dictatorship and there are plenty of examples where what Corbyn thinks doesn't become policy.
(https://i.imgur.com/tyTc1Nl.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sippo on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 11:22:02
This is like catchphrase.

Flying over the point...

#sarcasm


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 11:38:26
just out of interest, do you mean this particular Conservative offering or any Conservative ever?

The current lot for that actual comment. That said, I've always found the Tories repulsive and highly unpleasant and I for one would never vote for them, ever!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 11:49:04
ok, understood,


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 11:51:14
Anway, move along the bus there is nothing to see here.... https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnsons-conservatives-receive-surge-in-cash-from-russians-2019-11


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 12:01:59
Anway, move along the bus there is nothing to see here.... https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnsons-conservatives-receive-surge-in-cash-from-russians-2019-11
I'm sure Johnson receiving 100s of thousands in cash from Russian donors is all clean, legitimate and above board. If only there were some kind of report that could be published to exonerate him of any suspicion of undue Russian influence via dirty money?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 12:13:47
Alun Cairns has resigned from the government after lying about helping an aide who deliberately sabotaged a rape trial #BritainDeservesBetter


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 12:23:05
One hell of a start from the tories - and they've not even officially kicked off their campaign yet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 12:24:17
One hell of a start from the tories - and they've not even officially kicked off their campaign yet.
God help us when they do !!.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 12:26:18
At least, for their sakes, they have Boris to help steady the ship.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 12:27:45
At least, for their sakes, they have Boris to help steady the ship.
Plenty of ballast there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 12:28:46
One hell of a start from the tories - and they've not even officially kicked off their campaign yet.
That official launch video:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1191990483360370688


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 12:43:28
Cairns still intends to stand as a candidate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 13:11:00
(https://i.imgur.com/tyTc1Nl.jpg)

I have actually asked Horlock for his thoughts, good of you to tell me what he thinks, but I'll wait for his reply.

As regards his query about how Labour's renegoatiation might look, then workers rights and environmental concerns should be up there as priorities and some sort of alignment with the CU has ben mooted as desirable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 14:13:08
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-50317690

Your leader should probably shouldn't have called an election with minimal notice slap bang in the middle of nativity season then numbnuts!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 18:48:39
 So a lot on here must be upset that the Courts have ruled that the mass arrests of ER protestors by police more or less because they want to, or more likely as HMG told them to, is illegal if they are just exercising the right of peaceful protest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 20:01:04
I see Tom Watson, Labour’s Deputy Leader, is stepping down as an MP.

The purges continue.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 09:12:15
Looks like the tories are going on a full-out assault of Corbyn's character. Was to be expected, but they seem to be taking it to another level.

And from what I can tell from social media so far  - it is not working. It may even be backfiring.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 09:18:03
Looks like the tories are going on a full-out assault of Corbyn's character. Was to be expected, but they seem to be taking it to another level.

And from what I can tell from social media so far  - it is not working. It may even be backfiring.
Difficult to judge these things from your own social media feeds as both Twitter and FB's algorithms are so finely tuned to producing echo chambers. That's anyone btw, not just you


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 09:20:14
Nadhim Zahawi car crash with Andrew Neil last night....

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1192163737093980161

https://twitter.com/Trickyjabs/status/1192191461711736832



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 09:22:30
Looks like the tories are going on a full-out assault of Corbyn's character. Was to be expected, but they seem to be taking it to another level.

And from what I can tell from social media so far  - it is not working. It may even be backfiring.

Wot The Scouser said above, however, this most worry the Tories in the normally loyal Times

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIv66tMXkAEsoww?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)....



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 09:28:33
Wot The Scouser said above, however, this most worry the Tories in the normally loyal Times
Nah, Dom says they don't need to worry about print media any more or broadcast news, it's all about the socials innit? Trebles all round and sling a load more of those dark roubles to Cambridge Analytica!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 09:45:08
I know how social media works.

I literally write articles on it for marketers and what not. It's part of my bleedin' job.

But thanks for the heads up!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 09:51:43
I know how social media works.

I literally write articles on it for marketers and what not. It's part of my bleedin' job.

But thanks for the heads up!
Yeah, sorry, didn't think of that. Wasn't intended to be patronising, more musing aloud really. My apologies


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 10:05:50
 Recently in Swindon we had a consultation about the current set up for SBC local elections..... as things stand, a third of councillors are up for re-election etc every 3 years, but a 4 year cycle sees a fallow year.

 The consultation wants a change to the whole council every 4 years and 3 fallow years, between.

 Apparently the response was quite a low % of the already low % who vote in locals, but a majority for change.

 Interestingly, at the time of consultation there was no real mention of a party political element.

I voted to keep the status quo on the basis that it's good to have the opportunity to review SBC annually, and cast a vote accordingly. Further the number voting in locals is quite small moving to a 4 year cycle would mean people would lose the habit.

It now seems the Tories Lib/Dems want the change Labour don't.  The Tories and their Lib Dem chums claim it would save money, and make it easier them.... Labour in my opinion quite rightly wee it as a issue of democracy and accountability.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 10:09:47
Interestingly, at the time of consultation there was no real mention of a party political element.

It now seems the Tories Lib/Dems want the change Labour don't.  The Tories and their Lib Dem chums claim it would save money, and make it easier them.... Labour in my opinion quite rightly wee it as a issue of democracy and accountability.
Sauce? Not doubting you, I'm sure it's true, but not seen that (the party political bit, not the consultation itself)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 10:15:27
Sauce? Not doubting you, I'm sure it's true, but not seen that (the party political bit, not the consultation itself)

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/18020442.swindon-people-favour-four-year-borough-council-election-cycle/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 10:20:19
https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/18020442.swindon-people-favour-four-year-borough-council-election-cycle/
Cheers. Can see both sides of the argument tbh.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 10:33:34
Cheers. Can see both sides of the argument tbh.

The Chartists campaigned amongst other things for annual elections for Parliament, now although atm we more or less get that, I don't think many people would now see it as desirable. However locals are a different thing and here I'd say it works, keeps grassroots politics just about alive and kicking.
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 10:37:57
Nah, Dom says they don't need to worry about print media any more or broadcast news, it's all about the socials innit? Trebles all round and sling a load more of those dark roubles to Cambridge Analytica!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIw1ooOWkAENMLH?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 10:47:27
The Chartists campaigned amongst other things for annual elections for Parliament, now although atm we more or less get that, I don't think many people would now see it as desirable. However locals are a different thing and here I'd say it works, keeps grassroots politics just about alive and kicking.
 


Whilst the aims of the Chartists were laudable in many ways, their ability to fall out with one another and not achieve a great deal despite apparent wide ranging support would rival the present Labour party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 10:50:50
Looks like the tories are going on a full-out assault of Corbyn's character. Was to be expected, but they seem to be taking it to another level.

And from what I can tell from social media so far  - it is not working. It may even be backfiring.
Can't see why it would backfire,   IF what is written is correct (IF),  Then Jeremy Cornflake is a total knobhead. He tried to hoodwink students into voting for him in the last election by telling them he would write off their fees/debts,  it was later proved he would never have been able to as the funds were not available,  so how the hell is he going to finance all the promises he is making this time around ?. Bloke lives on another planet. If he gets control of this country it's time to get on a plane and join the rest of the forum exiles.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 11:04:36
Can't see why it would backfire,   IF what is written is correct (IF),

What about a tory minister comparing Corbyn to Stalin and implying that people will be dragged out and shot should he become PM? Or Hunt trying to claim that other nations don't want to deal with Corbyn because he is considered to be a dangerous extremist?

I'm sure some will fall for the latter especially but, still, it's quite obviously bullshit and a lot of people (not all) will know that they are being lied to. That often does not go down well. It also makes it look as though they have nothing else. Why focus on attacking Corbyn if their own policies are sound? Just a couple of ideas off the top of my head, I'm sure there'll be a myriad more that I haven't thought of.

Also, you do know that Corbyn is not the only alternative, right? People can vote for other candidates, or none of them, if they so wish.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 11:09:21
Whilst the aims of the Chartists were laudable in many ways, their ability to fall out with one another and not achieve a great deal despite apparent wide ranging support would rival the present Labour party.

These things are never easy... personally I've always been inspired by the sacrifices of our forebears, when it comes to improving the lot of the working class.

There is a long history in Britain of radical dissent, often doomed to glorious failure, however without it nothing would have ever changed since the Norman Conquest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 11:11:36
What about a tory minister comparing Corbyn to Stalin and implying that people will be dragged out and shot should he become PM? Or Hunt trying to claim that other nations don't want to deal with Corbyn because he is considered to be a dangerous extremist?

I'm sure some will fall for the latter especially but, still, it's quite obviously bullshit and a lot of people (not all) will know that they are being lied to. That often does not go down well. It also makes it look as though they have nothing else. Why focus on attacking Corbyn if their own policies are sound? Just a couple of ideas off the top of my head, I'm sure there'll be a myriad more that I haven't thought of.

Also, you do know that Corbyn is not the only alternative, right? People can vote for other candidates, or none of them, if they so wish.
Think the Stalin comment is a little bit over the top but as regards 'extremist' there appears there is evidence of this with the confirmed meetings he had with terrorist groups.  The nation will decide FH.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 11:11:50
Can't see why it would backfire,   IF what is written is correct (IF),  Then Jeremy Cornflake is a total knobhead. He tried to hoodwink students into voting for him in the last election by telling them he would write off their fees/debts,  it was later proved he would never have been able to as the funds were not available,  so how the hell is he going to finance all the promises he is making this time around ?.
The same way the Tories are going to fund their largely similar spending promises - borrowing. It can't be fiscal suicide for Labour to do it, but sensible investment in the nation for the Tories. If anything, the Tories have stolen Labour's clothes on public spending, promising massive investments in public services and infrastructure, but they're trying to have their cake and eat it by attacking Labour for having similar spending plans. It's just bollocks


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 11:15:23
The same way the Tories are going to fund their largely similar spending promises - borrowing. It can't be fiscal suicide for Labour to do it, but sensible investment in the nation for the Tories. If anything, the Tories have stolen Labour's clothes on public spending, promising massive investments in public services and infrastructure, but they're trying to have their cake and eat it by attacking Labour for having similar spending plans. It's just bollocks
It's really all bollocks,  unless you're a politician earning thousands of pounds a week.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 11:16:07
Think the Stalin comment is a little bit over the top

A 'little bit' over the top?

there appears there is evidence of this with the confirmed meetings he had with terrorist groups.

Yes.

Confirmed meetings with terrorist groups with which he was part of the peace process. Meetings that he also made no effort to hide.

I won't bother trying to change your mind. If that's what you believe then it's probably entrenched by now. Many others can see through the press' smears.

And you STILL seem to be overlooking/ignoring that Corbyn is not the only alternative.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 11:33:15
It's really all bollocks,  unless you're a politician earning thousands of pounds a week.
Well yes. So you're happy to accept then that there's actually little difference between Labour and the Tories' spending plans and that you don't need to leave the country as a result?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 11:39:03
Well yes. So you're happy to accept then that there's actually little difference between Labour and the Tories' spending plans and that you don't need to leave the country as a result?
In reality,  to the working man theres probably very little between all of them but we have to vote for someone and if we didn't there really would be no point in elections.   We all have our own reasons in voting for who we do, that's the whole idea of it.  We don't necessarily agree with each other,  this is the whole point of it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 11:45:46
In reality,  to the working man theres probably very little between all of them

If you can point me to the bit where Corbyn is planning to erode the employment rights of the 'working man' that would be helpful?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 11:50:00
The truth eh....

(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/74682711_1382977628536101_5278757347882172416_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_eui2=AeHIsejbLM9n-qqzSWK-Ev14XAVyDmfeSW7BNOZpGe9K7YUgSCQXYr17EySpDufz3RBQKcyiLIOvfdI5PYqwwdgbpXes-rulHD0IduANcN4usQ&_nc_oc=AQnImkAVLN_rt8FKA4NI6CjevIWL2HMagby-VQGaeDTEXF_bqs6IWOideKFrytaD3GyLpImp_o9LH7kzm7IJPwZx&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-2.fna&oh=6b99b2e98617985926fad362e8fdcd4f&oe=5E4A0C48)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 11:52:51
In reality,  to the working man theres probably very little between all of them but we have to vote for someone and if we didn't there really would be no point in elections.   We all have our own reasons in voting for who we do, that's the whole idea of it.  We don't necessarily agree with each other,  this is the whole point of it.
Yes of course. But it works a lot better if we decide that based on facts rather than false claims. You started out by repeating the false spin the Tories are putting on Labour's spending plans vs their own. So just wanted to check if you now accept that that is indeed crap, then you're in a better position to make your own mind up. Which you may of course still decide to vote Tory, which is your prerogative, but please do so based on facts not lies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 12:01:44
If you can point me to the bit where Corbyn is planning to erode the employment rights of the 'working man' that would be helpful?

It was my eldest's birthday t'other day and I was musing about paternity leave. There was none, however my boss did have a discretionary day off to grant, and did so, then back to work. When the second came along he refused a repeat.

Paternity leave was introduced by Labour in 2002 and is the sort of thing Tories will look to abolish.  I believe thay don't have it in the US, perhaps Rob could confirm or not?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 12:32:46

Paternity leave was introduced by Labour in 2002 and is the sort of thing Tories will look to abolish.  I believe thay don't have it in the US, perhaps Rob could confirm or not?

Is this a fact or just your opinion



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 12:58:17
No such thing as Paternity Leave here, you get Family Medical Leave of Absence, which generally speaking goes unpaid or requires you to dip into stored up leave, depending on the company.  It's rare for people to take more than 3 months for Maternity leave.  Very different culture in respect to leave allowances - fortunately some industries have decent enough basic allowances, so I;ve done OK being able to transfer my length of service as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 13:20:07
Good work Swindon https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-50329491


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 13:29:33
Is this a fact or just your opinion

Sort of thing.... so opinion, but based on a recent leak to the FT, of documents from the Brexit dept, with input from the government on how they're planning significant divergence on EU rules....

Quote
The British government is planning to diverge from the EU on regulation and workers’ rights after Brexit, despite its pledge to maintain a “level playing field” in prime minister Boris Johnson’s deal, according to an official paper shared by ministers this week.

The government paper drafted by Dexeu, the Brexit department, with input from Downing Street stated that the UK was open to significant divergence, even though Brussels is insisting on comparable regulatory provisions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 13:32:40
Good work Swindon https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-50329491

Borderline heart attack, really


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 14:24:29
Yes of course. But it works a lot better if we decide that based on facts rather than false claims. You started out by repeating the false spin the Tories are putting on Labour's spending plans vs their own. So just wanted to check if you now accept that that is indeed crap, then you're in a better position to make your own mind up. Which you may of course still decide to vote Tory, which is your prerogative, but please do so based on facts not lies.
Sorry but I cannot find any statement in any of my posts where I commented on  'the false spin the Tories are putting on Labours spending plans'  you seem to be reading something that is not there, unless you can elaborate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 14:27:55
If you can point me to the bit where Corbyn is planning to erode the employment rights of the 'working man' that would be helpful?
Maybe you could show me where I have said this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 14:36:08
Maybe you could show me where I have said this.
You've claimed that there is little difference between the Tories and Labour for the average working man and since the Tories will most certainly continue to erode the employment rights of the working man you have implied, therefore, that you think Corbyn is planning it as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 14:45:22
Maybe you could show me where I have said this.

You've claimed that there is little difference between the Tories and Labour for the average working man and since the Tories will most certainly continue to erode the employment rights of the working man you have implied, therefore, that you think Corbyn is planning it as well.

Ta

In light of the earlier thrust of this thread https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-media-bias-labour-mainstream-press-lse-study-misrepresentation-we-cant-ignore-bias-a7144381.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 14:54:12
You've claimed that there is little difference between the Tories and Labour for the average working man and since the Tories will most certainly continue to erode the employment rights of the working man you have implied, therefore, that you think Corbyn is planning it as well.
Thanks Bob, but again it is only personal opinions and if people prefer to think the Tories will erode employment rights that is entirely their perogative.  Nobody except those in Parliament genuinely know 100% what devious plans any party has.  I have no more idea on Corbyns plans other than what he has already stated,  than anyone else,  I have never said I am a Tory voter, but would not vote for Labour as long as Corbyn is in control. That is personal choice - which we all have.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 15:49:35
Stroud going green? https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/gloucester-news/molly-scott-cato-general-election-3510632


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 16:09:46
Stroud going green? https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/gloucester-news/molly-scott-cato-general-election-3510632

FGR will be in the forefront...

I'm a bit sorry to lose MS-C as my MEP, there's something to be said for voting for a small party like the Greens and getting a representation, there was also the feeling that Europe wide the Greens are quite strong and therefore could achieve something collectively on policy


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 16:29:46
Stroud going green? https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/gloucester-news/molly-scott-cato-general-election-3510632

Doubtful.  It's a Tory/Labour marginal.  The Lib Dems & Greens were a long way back in 2017.  Hopefully, Lib Dem voters will vote tactically and lend their votes to the Labour candidate instead as a means of keeping out the Tories.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 16:41:10
Enjoyed that David Dimbleby thing on Brexit last night.

Spoke to Remainers, Leavers and more importantly real people.

Poor old Labour MP from Wigan who now has a battle on her hands after her lot voted 2/3rds to Leave, with the Party trying to curry favour with every man and his dog by sitting on the fence.

The small businessman who tried to persuade his employees to vote remain as it would be bad for his business.

Farage doing the old Eastern European influx story.

A family that didnt speak to one another for a few weeks over it all.

Northern Ireland visit was a good insight to the way they feel.


It was very good.

The only thing that wasnt unbiased was talking to a foreign film crew outside Parliament, they were German, would of like to see him speak to a Greek crew to get a differing view of our vote.





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 17:23:20
A guide...

(https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/74524049_2474023156170407_2416818719259885568_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_eui2=AeEjVUC3Ie9aS2qK5SW_bmyGHQrQh-_fqdXS033u3YeS001WRU2853FNblZgMotTVxB_v6oMMOar38eO9G_ONU1NaL32u1kKYlZQgmauf7U0yw&_nc_oc=AQmkno0nPGLjJGza3YTphcLm79nupcATObGqs6IlnJAY384ruc3t9_9RTfasSR-PjusKK3zBJreCXDZivDFgnEHX&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-1.fna&oh=d919f5bad91a835cf421934d1c40d498&oe=5E4BFA1C)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 17:36:58
As ever with snap elections, both major parties are rushing selections and vetting of candidates and getting some startlingly dreadful people. Today, a controversial Norwich radio broadcaster (regrettably not that one) in the blue corner with some really quite horrible thoughts on rape, and a Labour candidate who isn't quite sure whether or not celebrating the death of Tony Blair is a reasonable thing to approve of it not.

Add that to the number of MPs standing down and I suspect the next parliament could be madder than a box of frogs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 19:03:32
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/nov/07/cabinet-office-blocks-publication-of-obr-economic-forecast?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The Cabinet Office have blocked an OBR report on the nation’s economic outlook. Now why would that be?

The Tory’s are also yet to publish an impact assessment on their Brexit deal. I can’t think why that might be.

Meanwhile Comrade Boris is in Scotland making promises...!! We know how this ends up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, November 7, 2019, 19:48:47
In all fairness, you don;t need a report to judge the impact of withdrawing from a huge free trade block - it will have a negative economic impact, certainly for a few years.  I very much doubt saying that is going to change the mind of someone who voted to leave, because they will have known that and the (right or wrong) belief about control on immigration and National Sovereignty will have weighed more heavily on them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 8, 2019, 09:39:38
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/nov/07/cabinet-office-blocks-publication-of-obr-economic-forecast?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The Cabinet Office have blocked an OBR report on the nation’s economic outlook. Now why would that be?


TBH I can sort of understand why such a report might fall foul of pre-election rules, although not commenting on whether its wrong or right.

I read that story yesterday and were surprised to see the Guardian trying to apply some sort of equivalence between this story and Sedwill cancelling the Tory’s impact assessment of the Labour party’s election promises using Civil Servants paid out of the public purse?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 8, 2019, 10:40:33
If its such a great deal why can't we have it? https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1192694594892382208


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 8, 2019, 11:32:05
Looks like we haven't come very far in 130 years https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/people/more-people-using-food-banks-in-north-yorkshire-than-were-in-the-workhouse-130-years-ago-1-10086708

Although obviously this has nothing to do with Brexit https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-economy-slowest-oecd-general-election-tuc-a9188136.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 8, 2019, 11:33:26
Looks like we haven't come very far in 130 years https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/people/more-people-using-food-banks-in-north-yorkshire-than-were-in-the-workhouse-130-years-ago-1-10086708

Although obviously this has nothing to do with Brexit https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-economy-slowest-oecd-general-election-tuc-a9188136.html
TBF it's probably not to do with Brexit, so much as Austerity. Pick your Tory disaster of choice.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 8, 2019, 11:37:43
TBF it's probably not to do with Brexit, so much as Austerity. Pick your Tory disaster of choice.

Whilst it pains me to say this, but when talking austerity the cuts which were delivered post 2010 (£81bn) were less than those proposed before that election by either Tory (£96bn) or Labour (£82bn), so if a Labour administration had delivered on their manifesto the results would have been potentially similar, likewise both Tories and Labour were still noting a need for cuts in 2015.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 8, 2019, 11:50:49
Just step back and ponder for a while how this would be presented by the Poppy police and in the media if it were Corbyn https://www.indy100.com/article/jacob-rees-mogg-poppy-remembrance-sunday-general-election-9194586


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Friday, November 8, 2019, 12:11:27
We're beginning to scrape the barrel and there's five weeks to go


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 8, 2019, 13:23:46
Looks like we haven't come very far in 130 years https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/people/more-people-using-food-banks-in-north-yorkshire-than-were-in-the-workhouse-130-years-ago-1-10086708

I think that's a poor comparison, we've come a long way in social reforms even in my lifetime.  Much of the post war improvements were instigated by Clement Attlee's 45 government, and then built on by other Labour administrations.

Attlee for me is a great man, largely overlooked. He fought in WWI at Gallipoli, a disastrous campaign instigated by Churchill, and was penultimate man to leave on withdrawal.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, November 8, 2019, 13:33:26
Attlee is overlooked by many because his tenure as PM was both preceded and succeeded by Churchill.  Which is shame because, as you say, he was almost unrivalled as a reformer.  The contrast in his style/personality with Churchill's was very cleverly portrayed in the first series of The Crown.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Friday, November 8, 2019, 14:27:48
So who is the next Attlee, is it Corbyn?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, November 8, 2019, 14:49:54
Not sure.  But I've no doubt that had the press been as right wing in 1945 as it is now, it would have choked off Attlee's premiership - and with it, the NHS - before he got started.  It simply would never have happened.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 8, 2019, 15:07:39
Not sure.  But I've no doubt that had the press been as right wing in 1945 as it is now, it would have choked off Attlee's premiership - and with it, the NHS - before he got started.  It simply would never have happened.
Given the Daily Mail had been actively promoting Mosley's British Union of Fascists throughout the early 30s, and I'm not sure it would have reformed that much by 1945, I think it's safe to say the press was pretty right wing back then and certainly it widely predicted imminent doom if Labour won the election much as now. But people ignored it and voted for a better Britain anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 8, 2019, 15:22:12
Given the Daily Mail had been actively promoting Mosley's British Union of Fascists throughout the early 30s, and I'm not sure it would have reformed that much by 1945, I think it's safe to say the press was pretty right wing back then and certainly it widely predicted imminent doom if Labour won the election much as now. But people ignored it and voted for a better Britain anyway.

Both the owners of the Mail and Express were open admirers of Mussolini and Hitler. 

After 1918, Lloyd George, had promised a land fit for heroes to live in.... it never happened instead we got the Great Depression.

The working clases were not to be fooled this time, even though recovery from WW2 was slow, the post war Labour settlement largely held until Thatcher.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Friday, November 8, 2019, 16:38:59
I’m just looking forward to all the menopause friendly offices if Labour get in. What a load of nonsense!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 8, 2019, 16:42:06
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EI3M0vvXUAIce9Z?format=jpg&name=small)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 8, 2019, 16:52:41
They don't half attract them....

https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2019/11/08/exposed-brexit-party-candidates-nazi-inspired-band/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 8, 2019, 16:57:07
Brexit Party in far-right weirdos shock!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Friday, November 8, 2019, 17:05:36

The working clases were not to be fooled this time, even though recovery from WW2 was slow, the post war Labour settlement largely held until Thatcher.

Seeing as i was not taking much notice at that time what was the Narrative in the 1979 election that bought the utopia to an end


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, November 8, 2019, 17:29:26
Tory split?

Decision on whether or not to evacuate should be based on the advice of the rescue services, Johnson now tells Yorkshire residents.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, November 8, 2019, 18:30:13
I’m just looking forward to all the menopause friendly offices if Labour get in. What a load of nonsense!

If.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 8, 2019, 18:51:30
Seeing as i was not taking much notice at that time what was the Narrative in the 1979 election that bought the utopia to an end

 Greater privatisation, sale of council houses, the gradual end of strong local democracy, the attack on trade unions and workers rights, deregulation of capitalism, and the use of mass unemployment to facilitate it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Friday, November 8, 2019, 21:46:53
Ah yes, the release of the strike ridden nation from the power of the unions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, November 9, 2019, 10:13:59
Ah yes, the release of the strike ridden nation from the power of the unions.

We had a very small debate on this a while back, but the situation in the early 70's, was that UK was in an economic downturn, this had happened due to the chronic lack of investment in infrastructure and R and D, and the collapse of traditional industries, where UK had been world leader.  These industries at management level were complacent and failed to notice the rise of competitors like Japan and S Korea.

Think of all those great names in the fields of say motorbikes, pushbikes, cars, ships, planes, and many more, that went to the wall, not because the products were shoddy, not because the work force didn't do a good job.

The R and D aspect is summed up by our efforts at space technology, in 70 we could successfully launch an independent satellite Prospero... but it cost and needed government investment, it was scrapped as no commercial use for satellite tech could be envisaged.

Also as the effects on the economy of the end of empire began to kick in UK had joined EFTA as a way of trying to boost performance.... it didn't work hence why we joined the EU, this helped improve matters.

Then a mighty spanner in the already clunky works, OPEC oil embargo.... precipitated inflation at often over 25%.

Now if like me you were a worker at the time, and you see your 40+ hours and overtime, getting you the bare essentials of subsistence overnight, you're not going to be happy and will look to your trade union to do something about it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Saturday, November 9, 2019, 13:47:37
I think that's a poor comparison, we've come a long way in social reforms even in my lifetime.  Much of the post war improvements were instigated by Clement Attlee's 45 government, and then built on by other Labour administrations.

Attlee for me is a great man, largely overlooked. He fought in WWI at Gallipoli, a disastrous campaign instigated by Churchill, and was penultimate man to leave on withdrawal.



Attlees's victory is rightly classed as astounding, plus the efforts on post war rebuild and reform.

Not so good on the foreign relations front and questioning of the division of post war Europe.
I guess the sun was still shining very brightly out of Uncle Joes backside at that time.

It took the leader of the opposition to make mention of an Iron Curtain.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Saturday, November 9, 2019, 14:52:02
Reg - Are you really saying that British Cars of the 70's weren't shoddy or badly put together?.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Saturday, November 9, 2019, 16:37:27
Reg - Are you really saying that British Cars of the 70's weren't shoddy or badly put together?.
At least we had British cars in the 70s.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Saturday, November 9, 2019, 17:35:03
At least we had British cars in the 70s.

That were rusting before they came off the production line!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, November 9, 2019, 17:36:47
Reg - Are you really saying that British Cars of the 70's weren't shoddy or badly put together?.

The history of Britain's car industry from the 60's into the 70's is complex... essentially you had numerous famous marques, which were being bunded together into larger groupings, to try and compete globally.

For example the Rootes group which acquired the likes of Humber and Hillman and tried to develop a new mini style Imp, it proved unsuccessful so Roote sold to Chrysler, who then took tax payer subsidy to try and keep Linwood open and fucked off.

The famous names like Austin, Morris, Land Rover, Mini, Jaguar were bundled into BMC and then BL.  These were noted for excellence, but by about 71, the designs were often considered outmoded.... take something like the Morris Minor, great car but its time was past.

The Management at BL then tried to develop new ranges of averagely designed vehicles, still using the lines and methods, developed in the 50's.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, November 9, 2019, 18:01:56
Think of all those great names in the fields of say motorbikes, pushbikes, cars, ships, planes, and many more, that went to the wall, not because the products were shoddy, not because the work force didn't do a good job.
The reason those industries failed were because they weren’t efficient, we were ‘the sick man of Europe’ because of strikes and other countries - mainly Japan - produced a better product for less money.

Always remember hearing about never buying a British made car which came off the production line on a Friday cos the majority of workers were already in prime weekend mode.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, November 9, 2019, 18:12:58
British cars do have a reputation for being poorly built, including sports cars.

Innovative - Yep
Fast - Yep
Sexy - Oh yes
Well built -  Nah


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, November 9, 2019, 18:15:40
The reason those industries failed were because they weren’t efficient, we were ‘the sick man of Europe’ because of strikes and other countries - mainly Japan - produced a better product for less money.

Always remember hearing about never buying a British made car which came off the production line on a Friday cos the majority of workers were already in prime weekend mode.

For sure industrial relations didn't help, but ultimately the car industry failed because of management and ownership decisions, poor design and lack of investment.

You can see the same has happened to Honda, with not a day on strike.

The idea that all these industries failed because of strikes is laughable in its patheticness.... the reality is somewhat different.

Look at Swindon's leading industries like the Railways, like Garrard, like Plessey.... all failed, all had first class product all had first class workers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Saturday, November 9, 2019, 18:41:38
For sure industrial relations didn't help, but ultimately the car industry failed because of management and ownership decisions, poor design and lack of investment.

The idea that all these industries failed because of strikes is laughable in its patheticness

Equally, as is your assertion that industries were full of first class workers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, November 9, 2019, 19:34:27
Equally, as is your assertion that industries were full of first class workers.

You can still find ex Railway, Garrard and Plessey workers in Swindon.... I suggest you go and tell them they weren't part of a first class workforce.

In fact we've a couple of ex Works men on here.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Saturday, November 9, 2019, 20:57:16
You can still find ex Railway, Garrard and Plessey workers in Swindon.... I suggest you go and tell them they weren't part of a first class workforce.

In fact we've a couple of ex Works men on here.....

Have you stopped talking about the car Industry now then


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, November 9, 2019, 21:23:23
Have you stopped talking about the car Industry now then


Quote
Look at Swindon's leading industries like the Railways, like Garrard, like Plessey.... all failed, all had first class product all had first class workers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Saturday, November 9, 2019, 21:57:16
I'll take that as a yes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Monday, November 11, 2019, 12:15:07
Big Nigel has confirmed that he has bottled it.

Should ensure a Tory majority


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 11, 2019, 12:30:00
Big Nigel has confirmed that he has bottled it.

Should ensure a Tory majority

It makes sense.... part of the Tories lurch towrds the far right was to nullify Farage.  Pesumably now he'll get a peerage or some other sinecure


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, November 11, 2019, 12:36:30
Big Nigel has confirmed that he has bottled it.

Should ensure a Tory majority

Excellent news all round.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, November 11, 2019, 12:39:15
Game over.  Farage has handed the election to Johnson with that move.  In a parallel universe somewhere, Labour would respond to this move by unambiguously coming out for Remain in their manifesto and consolidate the Remain vote.  But we're stuck with this one, sadly.  Corbyn will miserably stick to his guns and then miserably slink off in to retirement 5 weeks from now when Labour are punished for his indecision at the polls.

Five more years of Johnson on their way.  Goodbye Scotland.  Goodbye NHS.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, November 11, 2019, 12:39:39
Big Nigel has confirmed that he has bottled it.

Should ensure a Tory majority

Or he's done a deal with Johnson.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, November 11, 2019, 12:41:03
BBC caught using an old clip of Boris that doesn't make him look like a total fucking retard.

https://twitter.com/bojack70552409/status/1193812875049082880?s=21&fbclid=IwAR22joFpU6a62pI6sJRKQQb8woGOWtpIWEi0HLsZ0ktQlxKbqwuLr8vkj34


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 11, 2019, 12:43:29
Or he's done a deal with Johnson.


Peerage or US Ambassador (or both). And probably a decent side bung from Johnson's Russian mates too


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 11, 2019, 12:48:05
Five more years of Johnson on their way.  Goodbye Scotland.  Goodbye NHS.
Not to mention Goodbye to the Conservative Party as we know it. Get used instead to the English Nationalist Party


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, November 11, 2019, 12:48:50
Game over.  Farage has handed the election to Johnson with that move.

Probably but not definitely. Will certainly help Tories in those seats matain status quo. But they need to win seats from remain parties too. And running in those constituencies may weaken the Tory play.

Well in a normal world anyway. Corbyn is so crap right now he may still lose those seats.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 11, 2019, 12:55:10
Probably but not definitely. Will certainly help Tories in those seats matain status quo. But they need to win seats from remain parties too. And running in those constituencies may weaken the Tory play.

Well in a normal world anyway. Corbyn is so crap right now he may still lose those seats.
Corbyn will of course, but then the Tories will also lose seats in their heartlands to the Lib Dems where remain voters and moderate Tories switch away from the increasingly extremist Johnson model English Nationalist Party. We could see another Tory minority govt, more likely a small Tory majority.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, November 11, 2019, 13:18:43
And in the meantime, the BBC choose to portray Boris' apparent involvement with 9 dodgy election-interfering Russians as 'a mystery'.

Not a 'scandal', or a 'disgrace', but 'a mystery'.

(https://i.imgur.com/BxXeLOa.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Monday, November 11, 2019, 13:35:05
What was that about infecting the site with drivel!!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, November 11, 2019, 15:51:53
And Farage admits to being offered a peerage at the weekend.

The whole system is corrupt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 11, 2019, 17:06:04
The govt suppresses politically embarrassing reports on foreign influence over the govt, in particular the prime minister.
The police suspend a politically embarrassing investigation into abuse of office by the prime minister.
The state broadcaster "accidentally" edits footage of the remembrance day service to replace the prime minister's fuck ups with footage from 3 years ago.

Welcome to Russian "democracy", Putin-style. To be fair, he has paid for it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 10:55:29
Putin's cyber criminals are hard at work on Johnson's behalf:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50388879

Incidentally. given his name is actually Alexander Pfeiffel Boris Johnson, I wonder if he started using Boris rather than Alexander to be a bit more Russo-friendly for his handlers? :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 14:30:29
Are you going to give them their money back.... of course not!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug5LB_vz2S0


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 14:54:06
Are you going to give them their money back.... of course not!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug5LB_vz2S0

Love Eddie Mair. Skewered NF just like he skewered Johnson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agx5H6H3Gtg


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 17:00:15
Putin's cyber criminals are hard at work on Johnson's behalf:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50388879

Incidentally. given his name is actually Alexander Pfeiffel Boris Johnson, I wonder if he started using Boris rather than Alexander to be a bit more Russo-friendly for his handlers? :)

I think Alexander is quite Russian, too tbh.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 18:42:37
Watching the news makes my heart sink. Labour voters turning their backs on the party and saying they'll vote Tory because they want brexit so desperately says it all. They've forgotten about austerity and the terrible job the government have done in the last 9 years.
The press have really done a job on the nation and the top 1% will be happy. The turkeys will be voting for Christmas. Might as well hand the keys to Boris now and be done with it.
I'm hopeful that Sarah Church can oust Buckland in Swindon but apart from that I have zero expectation of a good result.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 18:52:20
that's why brexit and a general election shouldn't be mixed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 19:02:51
I wouldn't give up just yet.

A few polls* have labour gaining on the tories and somewhat closer than they were at the corresponding stage at the last GE.

Also, don't underestimate BJ's ability to right royally fuck things up for them. The tories have had an atrocious start and my money goes on their campaign not improving. They also have a few skeletons that they are desperately trying to keep hidden in the closet. Keep Abbott away Labour should hopefully avoid major cock-ups.

But it is still painful to see a nation being duped but the press. A little bit of me dies every time I see Corbyn being accused of being a terrorist sympathiser.

*Before anybody feels the need to 'educate' me: I know that polls are not necessarily accurate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 19:09:01
Anyone see the Tory party political broadcast a few mins ago? Cringe....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 19:18:27
Thankfully no.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 19:19:23
Quote from: Arriba
Anyone see the Tory party political broadcast a few mins ago? Cringe....

did it attack Labour for its duration?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 19:20:20
Think David Brent in his office. Boris is Brent. He did slip in Marxist of course though...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 20:21:19
Putin's cyber criminals are hard at work on Johnson's behalf:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50388879
Is it Russia though? They are pretty good at it, I would have thought if it was them Labour wouldn’t know until info was leaking out (see Fancy Bears).

On DDoS I was told about an online betting company who every year without fail would have a phonecall the day before the Grand National asking for GBP1,000,000 or they would flood the website, taking it offline. First year they paid it, then spent the rest of the year making sure that they wouldn’t have to pay it again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 20:22:28
Tim Walker, a Lib Dem PPC, stands aside to give the Labour candidate a better chance at beating a Tory to the seat.

The Lib Dems choose to field another candidate in his place.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 21:57:32
Are you going to give them their money back.... of course not!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug5LB_vz2S0
When are Brexiteers going to realise he's just a conman who's having them for mugs? Took over UKIP, rode them to the top of the hill then dropped them like a bad smell when the membership got a bit embarrassing and fucked off to make money in the states. Then suckered them into the Brexit Party, which has more in common with a Ponzi scheme than a political party. He cons thousands of them into paying 100 quid a pop for the privilege of even applying to be candidates, then drops them again when Boris dangles a title.Fuck all his "prinicples", fuck the Brexit Party Ponzi and all it's supporters, fuck Brexit itself, he doesn't care about any of them, Nigel's moved on and left them all looking like suckers again. And they'll all queue up to be ripped off and betrayed next time he comes up with another scam.

https://youtu.be/_8mduTEvnU0


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 22:56:05
When are Brexiteers going to realise he's just a conman who's having them for mugs? Took over UKIP, rode them to the top of the hill then dropped them like a bad smell when the membership got a bit embarrassing and fucked off to make money in the states. Then suckered them into the Brexit Party, which has more in common with a Ponzi scheme than a political party. He cons thousands of them into paying 100 quid a pop for the privilege of even applying to be candidates, then drops them again when Boris dangles a title.Fuck all his "prinicples", fuck the Brexit Party Ponzi and all it's supporters, fuck Brexit itself, he doesn't care about any of them, Nigel's moved on and left them all looking like suckers again. And they'll all queue up to be ripped off and betrayed next time he comes up with another scam.

https://youtu.be/_8mduTEvnU0

If only Corbyn could pull off a ‘stunt’ like that eh? Makes you sick doesn’t it? Just like the villains in Scooby Doo, they couldn’t get away with it either. Ho hum life’s just not fair. While i’m on a roll, yes it would have been different if the floods had happened in Surrey. Pretty much to a man and woman those of you in either the Labour Party or voting for the Labour Party would have pissed yourselves laughing saying they were glad and it couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch of smug Tory toffs. Those that didn’t would have been out looting the empty houses.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 00:04:25
What the fuck are you snorting about Legends-Lounge?  Having friends in Surrey who aren't Tories makes your point ridiculous. Plus much of the rural areas of Derbyshire that have been flooded has a very safe Tory seat, usually gaining between 50-60% of the vote there. Shut up with your nonsense. Yes that's coming from me - a man who knows bullshit when he's smells it. I am king of talking bullshit apparently.

What has saddened me more this evening is my old man. For as long as I know he has always been a LibDem voter. Tonight he told me he can't wait to vote Conservative and said "Fair play to him." when I told him about what Farage has been upto.

I really don't get it?! Yep - you can vote for whoever you like but my old man never in his life would vote Conservative (until now). It worries me in the sense that people are getting their heads turned very easily. I asked what reasons he is voting Tory and simply said "They're the only party who will get us out of this mess (Brexit) at all."

If someone as LibDem as my Dad can have his head turned then it will be disheartening to have another five years of Tory rule. Personally I still think we're heading for a hung parliament and Tories will need to to a deal with someone. I think the ship has sailed with the DUP and Brexit Party will just have a similar result as UKIP did (lots of votes but no actual seats), much like Greens last time out.

So if we were to get a hung parliament, ruling out Brexit Party and DUP, who would do a deal with the Conservatives as it stands?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 09:01:05
While i’m on a roll, yes it would have been different if the floods had happened in Surrey. Pretty much to a man and woman those of you in either the Labour Party or voting for the Labour Party would have pissed yourselves laughing saying they were glad and it couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch of smug Tory toffs. Those that didn’t would have been out looting the empty houses.
I can't imagine anyone thinking like that, irrespective of political affiliation. What a very unpleasant person you must be, to even think of such a thing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 09:06:28
I asked what reasons he is voting Tory and simply said "They're the only party who will get us out of this mess (Brexit) at all."

This is just extraordinary.  They created the mess in the first place.  FFS, it's their mess!  It's like handing the keys of the fire engine to the arsonist.  'Go on, do your best.  Try to put out that fire that you started.'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 09:10:05
It's very striking this time around how most voters are focussing on which party they want to keep out of government, rather than which party they would like in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 09:34:53
https://youtu.be/97zPDojMWiQ

Twat!!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 09:41:34
I can't imagine anyone thinking like that, irrespective of political affiliation. What a very unpleasant person you must be, to even think of such a thing.
Harsh.  

Think the focus should be on the privileged Islington resident singling out a county in which he won't win a seat to foment his vile and divisive vision.  

Hundreds and hundreds of Surrey residents had to evacuate their homes in 2014, with major concerns for the elderly and vulnerable, and no national emergency was called then.

Magic Grandpa can fuck right off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 10:03:06
https://youtu.be/97zPDojMWiQ

Twat!!!

Like I said yesterday.

Don't underestimate Boris' ability to right royally fuck things up for the Tories.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 10:18:25
Other parties should just release this as a broadcast, bit of a nightmare for the BBC inadvertently interviewing a remainer for a vox pop.

https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1194543550345682949


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 10:30:25
Meanwhile, in Croydon the Tories are actively endorsing a cult that bullies members into taking out massive loans they can't afford and encourages them to defraud banks to donate to church leaders

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/church-told-faithful-to-defraud-banks-k0nj8v09k

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/12/spac-nation-church-asks-young-members-to-hand-over-thousands

https://gal-dem.com/why-did-it-take-so-long-to-uncover-spac-nations-alleged-scams/



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 12:04:56
Like I said yesterday.

Don't underestimate Boris' ability to right royally fuck things up for the Tories.

He's already done more than enough I would say. Not working at the moment though. People are selfish, uncaring and stupid.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 12:13:41
Did Boris call Corbyn a Wanker? Can’t say I’ve ever heard that term before.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 12:17:03
Beggars belief that against this backdrop, the slogan 'Getting Brexit Done' is still considered a vote winner in this country.

'Berlin Rocks' says Elon Musk as he Chooses European Factory (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50400068)

Particularly resonant in Swindon, a town whose automotive industry is being decimated.

We're being left behind.  It's happening already.  'Brexit Dividend' in action.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 12:27:23
The whole voting Tory just to get Brexit done is absolutely bonkers.

I'm a floating voter, always have been as I've never really felt a particular allegiance to any one party in particular. I'm probably more on the right of centre, in the past I've voted for all three of the main parties at particular times. I've gotten more 'tactical' in the two most recent elections.

The reason I point this out is because there's absolutely no chance in hell that I'm prepared to vote Tory just to 'get Brexit done'. They've had three years to get it done and have categorically proven they can't. Buckland is just as complicit as the rest of the party.

Based on policy, I should probably vote Lib Dem or Green, but that's a pretty worthless vote in Swindon South.

So I'm voting Labour. As useless as Corbyn is, it's the only realistic chance of my vote meaning anything and spurring change. Plus Sarah Church actually seems like a decent person.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 12:55:26
Graun has a great interview with Peter Reid today. It's an interesting read anyway, but especially enjoyed the bit where he called Boris Johnson a "fat lying twat and a disgrace" and recalls Johnson's response "Cowardly, he shit himself". Always had respect for Ol Monkey Heed but he has gone up further in my estimation

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/nov/09/peter-reid-boris-johnson-everton-howard-kendall-interview


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 12:56:48
In exactly the same position Sam. But I'm Swindon North. No idea who Kate Linnegar is either.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 13:06:03
Against a background of 10 years of
  • swingeing austerity cuts to the NHS, the police and public services,
  • the entirely internally-confected issue of Brexit,
  • a £1B loyalty bribe to the DUP,
  • huge overspends with no end in sight on CrossRail and HS2,
  • the shelving of the Northern powerhouse,
  • an immigration policy that permitted the criminal Windrush scandal,
  • a 20% drop in the value of sterling,
  • and the now real prospect of the dissolution of the Union,
   
the fact that Britain has returned Tory-led governments three times since 2010 tells you the public's default position.

Over this period Britain has become more fundamentally conservative, increasingly favouring introspection and retrenchment over the risk of progressive change. It's the "mustn't grumble", "keep your head down", "look after number one" society.

That's what an opposition is up against.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 13:26:58
That, and Corbyn's a traitor, commie, terrorist sympathiser. (Or so many would have you believe).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 13:30:24
Against a background of 10 years of
  • swingeing austerity cuts to the NHS, the police and public services,
  • the entirely internally-confected issue of Brexit,
  • a £1B loyalty bribe to the DUP,
  • huge overspends with no end in sight on CrossRail and HS2,
  • the shelving of the Northern powerhouse,
  • an immigration policy that permitted the criminal Windrush scandal,
  • a 20% drop in the value of sterling,
  • and the now real prospect of the dissolution of the Union,
   
the fact that Britain has returned Tory-led governments three times since 2010 tells you the public's default position.

Over this period Britain has become more fundamentally conservative, increasingly favouring introspection and retrenchment over the risk of progressive change. It's the "mustn't grumble", "keep your head down", "look after number one" society.

That's what an opposition is up against.

I think the thing is that however much Labour loyalists like to make much of them being the party of the working man, for many working class people that is a nonsense these days and they choose to vote Tory, on that basis Labour loyalists are living as much in a past as the right wing colonialists harking back to Great Britain.

A rough straw poll of my social media theme, much as with Brexit sits to split fairly strongly on 'left home and the area, work in white collar' Not Tory and Remain v. 'Never left the town/village bought up in, have what would loosely have been called blue collar job', unswerving Tory and Brexit. Now I would imagine that 50 years back that would potentially be the polar opposite of the case.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sir windon on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 13:56:50
The below quote from Conservative campaigners in formerly safe Tory constituencies is interesting.
“If you knock on a door and they have books on their shelves, you can be pretty sure these days they’re not voting Tory.”


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 14:25:00
The below quote from Conservative campaigners in formerly safe Tory constituencies is interesting.
“If you knock on a door and they have books on their shelves, you can be pretty sure these days they’re not voting Tory.”

This is not me being a sniffy twat, what is the source for that just out of interest?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 14:35:21
If you read books, you're a de facto member of the 'metropolitan elite' (even if you live nowhere near a metropolis).  You may even know an expert or two.  (Experts in anything are also not to be trusted.)  Ignorance is highly-prized by modern Conservatives.  It keeps them in office.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 14:42:14
The whole voting Tory just to get Brexit done is absolutely bonkers.

I'm a floating voter, always have been as I've never really felt a particular allegiance to any one party in particular. I'm probably more on the right of centre, in the past I've voted for all three of the main parties at particular times. I've gotten more 'tactical' in the two most recent elections.

The reason I point this out is because there's absolutely no chance in hell that I'm prepared to vote Tory just to 'get Brexit done'. They've had three years to get it done and have categorically proven they can't. Buckland is just as complicit as the rest of the party.

Based on policy, I should probably vote Lib Dem or Green, but that's a pretty worthless vote in Swindon South.

So I'm voting Labour. As useless as Corbyn is, it's the only realistic chance of my vote meaning anything and spurring change. Plus Sarah Church actually seems like a decent person.

This pretty much sums me up too


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sir windon on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 14:47:08
I heard the quote on Radio 4 recently ('PM' programme I think) attributed to conservatives campaigning in pro remain marginals but when I googled it I found it attributed to a "Tory minister" in an article in The Sun newspaper during the last election. Just thought it was an interesting angle on the debate about perceptions over 'shifting party loyalties', if such a this actually exists to any particular degree, anymore.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sir windon on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 14:50:09
I heard the quote on Radio 4 recently ('PM' programme I think) attributed to conservatives campaigning in pro remain marginals but when I googled it I found it attributed to a "Tory minister" in an article in The Sun newspaper during the last election. Just thought it was an interesting angle on the debate about perceptions over 'shifting party loyalties', if such a this actually exists to any particular degree, anymore.

Admittedly it doesn't take into account the impact on shelving of those new fangled Kindles that all you young people are using these days!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 14:50:27
This is just extraordinary.  They created the mess in the first place.  FFS, it's their mess!  It's like handing the keys of the fire engine to the arsonist.  'Go on, do your best.  Try to put out that fire that you started.'

I know Ardiles, it really did sadden me. I believe though, since the Referendum, this is a story of division amongst families and friends across a nation.

I tried to say to my Dad in the main all the Conservatives really stand for is to keep the elites richer and the "working man" in their box/place. To which he responded (ridiculously) "So if you or I became very rich, you'd be ok with handing it all out to others?". Ridiculous a comment as it was, I personally would distribute my wealth if I had enough because I know what it is like to have buggar all. His response was a deflection from the point because at current - neither of us are "rich".

It's odd though, whenever I say anything even mildly negative regarding Tories, my old man goes off on some Labour hating, Corbyn bashing rant?! As if he's been this hardline Conservative all his life and for some reason thinks I am the stoutest Labour voter. I'm not, traditionally.

Why doesn't he put across to me a wonderful reasoning of positives and strengths for voting Conservative? Because likely there is no solid evidence of strength or reasoning to support such. I'd love to hear a convincing policy and manifesto but I don't think it will ever be written let alone exist.

What is it they say about when you fear your enemy - you tend to hate them. In my Dad's case for Labour, this is indeed bizarrely true.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 14:54:50
The below quote from Conservative campaigners in formerly safe Tory constituencies is interesting.
“If you knock on a door and they have books on their shelves, you can be pretty sure these days they’re not voting Tory.”

You've haven't seen my Dad's bookshelf(ves) then. He's definitely voting Tory. Although he has stopped reading lately - you may have a point! Maybe cartoons will work?! David Squires sketches for Christmas then :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 15:11:20
Ultimately everyone has their own reasons for voting the way that they do, however, I really cannot understand anyone on less than say £80k a year can think that a Tory government has any benefit or interest in them?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 15:16:40
Ultimately everyone has their own reasons for voting the way that they do, however, I really cannot understand anyone on less than say £80k a year can think that a Tory government has any benefit or interest in them?

Because they believe the shit they get spoon fed from the biased press. Also we have the government ministers and MPs well drilled to attack Corbyn and Labour at every given opportunity. Whenever they get asked anything they cannot give a straight answer to(daily occurance) it gets spun into just that. The public have fallen for it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 15:19:33
Because they believe the shit they get spoon fed from the biased press. Also we have the government ministers and MPs well drilled to attack Corbyn and Labour at every given opportunity. Whenever they get asked anything they cannot give a straight answer to(daily occurance) it gets spun into just that. The public have fallen for it.

In this day and age (of more open media sources available to us all), I still don't get how they continually do fall for it. I know us humans are creatures of habit but are we all really creatures of madness?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 15:20:35
Ultimately everyone has their own reasons for voting the way that they do, however, I really cannot understand anyone on less than say £80k a year can think that a Tory government has any benefit or interest in them?

Because Corbyn's a commie, traitor, Britain hating, terrorist loving, racist anti-semite extremist.

How did I do?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 15:24:41
Because Corbyn's a commie, traitor, Britain hating, terrorist loving, racist anti-semite extremist.

How did I do?
Corbingo


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 15:30:26
In this day and age (of more open media sources available to us all), I still don't get how they continually do fall for it. I know us humans are creatures of habit but are we all really creatures of madness?

Your dad is a casing example. He only needs to do a bit of research to realise he's misguided.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 15:45:23
Corbingo

 :clap:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 15:53:18
In this day and age (of more open media sources available to us all), I still don't get how they continually do fall for it. I know us humans are creatures of habit but are we all really creatures of madness?

We live in uncertain times, and the proliferation of various media adds to that sense of uncertainty. 

Most people have little to no interest in politics, but just want to carry on consuming, and would rather not think too much of the consequences, or think too much about what politics means.

They know what they'll get with the Tories.... austerity, public squalor, a run down NHS..... but are prepared to put up with it as they won't be required to pay for the necesary improvements, through higher taxation.   The problem for the Tories will be if their hard Brexit really does tank the economy as predicted, and their voters get the private as well as public squalor.

That people firmly prefer their head in the sand, is the fact that still climate change isn't at the top of the agenda. They like the fact that Johnson can describe climate change science as "a primitive fear without foundation"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 15:54:49
Because Corbyn's a commie, traitor, Britain hating, terrorist loving, racist anti-semite extremist.

How did I do?

You forgot Russian spy, scared to press the red button, danger to the economy, Marxist, hates the armed forces.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 16:01:02
.....and Arsenal fan.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 16:15:55
In this day and age (of more open media sources available to us all), I still don't get how they continually do fall for it. I know us humans are creatures of habit but are we all really creatures of madness?

Thing is if you only get your news from the say the Mail and the BBC, you will be completely oblivious to a lot of dodgy stuff that's going on as its just not reported, the Russian stuff is barely mentioned and reported as being a mystery or whatever, likewise the normal political machinations of the other parties such as tactical voting and cross party bills are reported as being 'plots' and then there is the BBC editing the remembrance thing to old footage to stop Johnson looking a tool. Thus you could be a normal person who gets news from 2/3 outlets and have no idea what the hell is actually going on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 16:38:58
Being uneducated I sadly did not get the subtlety of Johnson calling Corbyn a wanker today.....

https://twitter.com/ProudGranny24/status/1194554210823671808


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 16:40:41
Your dad is a casing example. He only needs to do a bit of research to realise he's misguided.

Clearly. Although he has always been a person who does his own digging. He doesn't usually fall into the trap of "Well the <<insert MSM>> said it so it must be true.", so what is different this time compared to other years?

I think for a lot it may have something to do with the rise of the further right. Started several back with factions of EDL (still lingering :/ ) and then that Nick Cumstain (can't think of his surname) who led the BNP. Who as we know were both very racism infused parties. It enabled a lot of the inner racists for some but several people didn't want to be seen as fully blown KKK style racists. This enabled the rise of UKIP into mainstream politics. Lots of closet racists making the switch* to vote for on the surface, essentially a sophisticated (sic) party, with Tory undertones. The perfect plan... When the penny dropped and UKIP were found out to be sliding back towards very far right and racist tendencies...the closet racists didn't want to be found out too and jumped ship. Genuine UKIPers who fell for the more innocent party hook of obtaining Independence from Europe, were left without a party to take seriously. Likely, many of those were sucked in and fell for the charms of the newly formed Brexit Party, only to be left high and dry as well as some also out of pocket.

Certainly, as this decade comes to a close this trend has been a continuing influence. We know about the NF and other localised "Liberation Fronts", spilling into EDL (essentially a continuation of Ultras and linked football hooliganism trying to get into politics) and then BNP. The far right has wormed it's way in and made a mark. We don't have to accept it but my fears are it will take a long time to remove. We have gone backwards, we're in danger of or in the process of slipping even further back. Where racial stereotypes become accepted talk once again. That isn't an environment I want to live in, it isn't an environment I want my niece or future children growing up in. Hate is being used by the powers that be to continually divide us, once we all see this only then can change for the good be made.

*Farage didn't agree with a BNP influence being allowed to merge with UKIP (that's the only credit he's getting there) and probably stopped the extreme right entering mainstream politics.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 17:52:27
Clearly. Although he has always been a person who does his own digging. He doesn't usually fall into the trap of "Well the <<insert MSM>> said it so it must be true.", so what is different this time compared to other years?

I think for a lot it may have something to do with the rise of the further right. Started several back with factions of EDL (still lingering :/ ) and then that Nick Cumstain (can't think of his surname) who led the BNP. Who as we know were both very racism infused parties. It enabled a lot of the inner racists for some but several people didn't want to be seen as fully blown KKK style racists. This enabled the rise of UKIP into mainstream politics. Lots of closet racists making the switch* to vote for on the surface, essentially a sophisticated (sic) party, with Tory undertones. The perfect plan... When the penny dropped and UKIP were found out to be sliding back towards very far right and racist tendencies...the closet racists didn't want to be found out too and jumped ship. Genuine UKIPers who fell for the more innocent party hook of obtaining Independence from Europe, were left without a party to take seriously. Likely, many of those were sucked in and fell for the charms of the newly formed Brexit Party, only to be left high and dry as well as some also out of pocket.

Certainly, as this decade comes to a close this trend has been a continuing influence. We know about the NF and other localised "Liberation Fronts", spilling into EDL (essentially a continuation of Ultras and linked football hooliganism trying to get into politics) and then BNP. The far right has wormed it's way in and made a mark. We don't have to accept it but my fears are it will take a long time to remove. We have gone backwards, we're in danger of or in the process of slipping even further back. Where racial stereotypes become accepted talk once again. That isn't an environment I want to live in, it isn't an environment I want my niece or future children growing up in. Hate is being used by the powers that be to continually divide us, once we all see this only then can change for the good be made.

*Farage didn't agree with a BNP influence being allowed to merge with UKIP (that's the only credit he's getting there) and probably stopped the extreme right entering mainstream politics.

Good points, well made. Agree


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 18:54:19
Labour's party political broadcast was pretty shit imo. Missed opportunity me thinks...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 19:25:37
It was tame, yet it wasn't a cheese fest like the BoJo one.

Just getting the contrasting MSM view on this evenings news. BBC went (unsurprisingly) soft on Boris Johnson's disastrous visit to South Yorks, refusing to use a fount of footage and only playing the less harsh stuff. They then spent the rest of the political section bashing Labour in various articles.  Switch to CH4 at 7pm and already in the first 15mins they have shown numerous pieces of footage of Boris in South Yorks, with many disgruntled residents telling him how it is. Also referencing to a piece that points to Conservatives trying to manipulate British Hindus and Muslims into voting for them.

Currently covering the uncertainty of Labour RE: Scottish Referendum. Corbyn says they won't offer a Referendum to Scotland until later into their 5yr stay but mutterings/confusion that they won't get one at all. Then switches to a face to face interview with Corbyn and a CH4 News Journo, who presses Corbyn on several issues.

Paint a picture how you like - as they say. If MSM were the only sources I read/watch/listen to, of the two media outlets above, I would say CH4 was much more balanced. Neither supporting Tory or Labour but did expose more truth in relation to BJs visit to South Yorks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 19:35:20
Ultimately everyone has their own reasons for voting the way that they do, however, I really cannot understand anyone on less than say £80k a year can think that a Tory government has any benefit or interest in them?

Because some people believe that using taxation to support people who are not currently employed is not the right answer to preventing people from being "poor".  They believe that providing higher financial levels of support drives people away from gainful employment.

Because some people believe they should not have to pay towards other people's failure.

Because some people believe reducing or removing Corporation tax enables companies to spend their earned capital on reinvesting in creating wealth by producing more employment etc.

Because some people believe the controls on immigration should be extreme

Because some people believe private companies will do a better job at driving efficiency and improvements in services vs. a civil service that has protected employment and does not need to innovate to stay in business.

And so on.

I'm not saying I agree with any or all of these, just that it's precisely the fact people dismiss these alternative opinions on policy that enable the more Right wing to entrench and retain support.  You don;t even have to agree with every policy, you can also keep them voting by suggesting the other side hate you and want to control you, not let you live your life the way you want to.

As an example - I believe the privatisation of many companies would get wide support (not from Reg).  Arsehole Train Operators in 2020 > BR in 1980, Telecoms now > Telecoms Nationalised, No British Leyland > British Leyland Nationalised.  There are many people who would vote Tory in fear of Labour getting hold of some of those and spending their tax money on buying them back and creating inefficient and ineffective sponges.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 14, 2019, 10:07:45
Made I larf...

https://twitter.com/MrMichaelSpicer/status/1194914585989378048

In terms of the below I don't disagree, however....

Because some people believe that using taxation to support people who are not currently employed is not the right answer to preventing people from being "poor".  They believe that providing higher financial levels of support drives people away from gainful employment.

Because some people believe they should not have to pay towards other people's failure.

The vast majority of us are one redundancy from going from 'hard working', to 'benefit scrounger' - perhaps one has to experience that to be able to understand it?


Because some people believe the controls on immigration should be extreme


Not going very well though is it,

(https://www.national-preservation.com/attachments/immigration-jpg.47831/)

I have noted previously that I have people in my wider family who voted leave purely on the basis that it would mean fewer brown faces in their towns. Also worth bearing in mind that at least India so far have put easier visa requirements for entering the UK as a pre-requisite for trade talks.


As an example - I believe the privatisation of many companies would get wide support (not from Reg).  Arsehole Train Operators in 2020 > BR in 1980, Telecoms now > Telecoms Nationalised, No British Leyland > British Leyland Nationalised.  There are many people who would vote Tory in fear of Labour getting hold of some of those and spending their tax money on buying them back and creating inefficient and ineffective sponges.

Buggered if |I can find it now, but a surprisingly large number of the electorate seem to be in support of nationalisation, whilst much was made of the poll suggesting that nationalisation of the water  system was now broadly resisted it transpired that this was based upon ver leading questions and commissioned by the private water companies themselves. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 14, 2019, 11:10:06
Uhm!

(https://i.imgur.com/giJ2VCc.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 14, 2019, 12:21:08
Three cheers for the party of law and order, who have cut the criminal justice system to beyond breaking point so that convictions and prosecutions are now at a record low as recorded crimes are on the rise #BritainDeservesBetter

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/crime-justice-system-criminal-record-low-new-prosecution-england-wales-statistics-a9202506.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 14, 2019, 12:27:47
Three cheers for the party of law and order, who have cut the criminal justice system to beyond breaking point so that convictions and prosecutions are now at a record low as recorded crimes are on the rise #BritainDeservesBetter

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/crime-justice-system-criminal-record-low-new-prosecution-england-wales-statistics-a9202506.html

Due to a lack of funding 36 out of the 135 Crown Court rooms are not sitting today in London. This includes 5 empty courts at the Old Bailey.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, November 14, 2019, 14:49:58
Buggered if |I can find it now, but a surprisingly large number of the electorate seem to be in support of nationalisation, whilst much was made of the poll suggesting that nationalisation of the water  system was now broadly resisted it transpired that this was based upon ver leading questions and commissioned by the private water companies themselves. 

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/05/19/nationalisation-vs-privatisation-public-view


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 14, 2019, 15:29:25
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/05/19/nationalisation-vs-privatisation-public-view

Ta muchly, I assume the 3% who want the Police and Armed Forces to be privately run are the same people? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 14, 2019, 15:55:46
NHS, safe in their hands:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-50397856

#BritainDeservesBetter


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 14, 2019, 15:56:51
Yeah, but Corbyn...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 14, 2019, 16:02:15
Johnson must be getting fed up of getting boo'ed everywhere he goes, he abandoned a planned visit to a bakery in Glastonbury today after a handful of protestors gathered outside and ran away to Wells. Bottler.

#BritainDeservesBetter


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 14, 2019, 16:23:22
Johnson has a problem.  He pretty much hid from view during the first week of the campaign.  He's venturing out a little more during Week 2.  Even made it to the flooding sites - 5 days late & after everyone else had been & gone.  But he's still being shielded from contact with the public more than you would expect.

He's completely marmite.  His supporters love him...but he's loathed by many more.  And he knows that contact with the latter group isn't going to look good on the news & on social media.  So he hides.  Problem is, the campaign has another 4 weeks to run.  He's going to have to break cover at some point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 14, 2019, 16:28:35
Johnson has a problem.  He pretty much hid from view during the first week of the campaign.  He's venturing out a little more during Week 2.  Even made it to the flooding sites - 5 days late & after everyone else had been & gone.  But he's still being shielded from contact with the public more than you would expect.

He's completely marmite.  His supporters love him...but he's loathed by many more.  And he knows that contact with the latter group isn't going to look good on the news & on social media.  So he hides.  Problem is, the campaign has another 4 weeks to run.  He's going to have to break cover at some point.
They've already had to section Rees-Mogg after his Grenfell comments. Victoria Atkins has been walled up in a motorway bridge, Priti Patel couldn't backtrack on her immigration policy quick enough today and Matt Hancock ... well, he's just Matt Hancock.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, November 14, 2019, 16:31:41
Fear > Options & Opportunities - Trump won over here and was universally hated as well as performing like an idiot in debates.  The Tories do not have to look competent to Lib Dem supporters, just create enough scared people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, November 14, 2019, 16:57:24
And we can all remember the last GE, where Theresa, was kept away from debates as she was so useless. Still won though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 14, 2019, 17:01:43
Fear > Options & Opportunities - Trump won over here and was universally hated as well as performing like an idiot in debates.  The Tories do not have to look competent to Lib Dem supporters, just create enough scared people.

Bet Trump knows the words to the Wheels on the Bus though.....

https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1195014856803532801



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, November 14, 2019, 22:34:01
Time to stockpile string and tin cans 🤣🤣🤣🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 14, 2019, 22:37:04
Labour promise free broadband - paid for by taxing tech giants.

No doubt there will be many that will be sceptical/cynical and it is reasonable to question such a promise. Regardless, it's still quite a pledge to make and a potential game-changer. It should turn a few heads, especially among younger voters which is the demographic they should be aiming for. It's almost as though they've done their homework.

Meanwhile, the tories switch their attention from attacking Labour/Corbyn to attacking immigrants instead.

Have the tories mentioned a policy of their own yet? Asides from 'get Brexit done'?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, November 14, 2019, 23:18:39
Labour promise free broadband - paid for by taxing tech giants.

No doubt there will be many that will be sceptical/cynical and it is reasonable to question such a promise. Regardless, it's still quite a pledge to make and a potential game-changer. It should turn a few heads, especially among younger voters which is the demographic they should be aiming for. It's almost as though they've done their homework.

Meanwhile, the tories switch their attention from attacking Labour/Corbyn to attacking immigrants instead.

Have the tories mentioned a policy of their own yet? Asides from 'get Brexit done'?

Yes, very nice reply, hopefully you’ll forgive me if I carry on looking for string and can manufacturing investment opportunities.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 15, 2019, 08:16:11
have they let The Apprentice candidates loose on the Labour policy manifesto?

Free nationalised broadband? fuck off


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, November 15, 2019, 08:21:53
‘Children. Come and get your broadband. All free today’


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, November 15, 2019, 09:15:48
Initial thought was that the broadband idea was utter nonsense, but on reflection I'm not quite sure why. There are some, to put it mildly, privacy concerns if the state is your ISP but not really sure that's so different from the private companies we have now.

The major advantage of it I could see is if you can give absolutely everyone reliable broadband (and that feels like a big if with the general government ability to delivery infrastructure projects) then you can move more of government services online (jobcentres, benefits, taxation etc.) and deliver them at a fraction of the cost. At which point it might cost rather less than first thought.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, November 15, 2019, 09:27:18
On the face of it, it's not really a very good idea. But those who wish to pay a private company for broadband will still be able to do so, and the Nationalised Broadband will be there to keep the technology moving forward and making sure all the pony villages in the UK have proper access to the internet - whether it is profitable or not.

Something needs to be done, we are slipping behind tech giants such as Madagascar in this space:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/10/uk-slips-to-35th-in-global-table-of-broadband-speeds

PS, Singapore seem to be doing OK with a nationalised phone/internet provider:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singtel


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 15, 2019, 09:31:37
It's easy to scoff at to begin with but the more you think about it, the better idea it is.

It will also likely be beneficial for the companies they would be taxing. The likes of Facebook etc must surely benefit if more of the population are online, helping recoup at least some of the tax.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, November 15, 2019, 09:50:28
Agreed, my initial reaction was overwhelmingly negative but the more I thought about it, the more advantages I saw.

Full disclosure - I'm a network engineer so have some knowledge in this area.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 15, 2019, 10:11:30
There are some, to put it mildly, privacy concerns if the state is your ISP but not really sure that's so different from the private companies we have now.


Isn't the state essentially our ISP now anyway, admittedly its the Chinese state but hey ho.

Its like when people witter on about nationalised railways being a dreadful thing rather ignoring that a lot of our train companies are owned by the state, just not the UK state. For instance our trains here are run by Northern, which is a subsidiary of Arriva, which is a subsidiary of Deutsche Bahn which is owned by the government of Germany, likewise whjen Virgin give up the West Coast franchise next month its successor is partly owned by Trenitalia owned by the Italian government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 15, 2019, 10:20:36
Possibly bollocks?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50426535


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, November 15, 2019, 10:36:01
Watched question time for the first time in a long while last night. Quite a reasonable and balanced edition I thought. Even the lass from the Brexit party seemed clear and concise. I especially enjoyed it as James Cleverly made the complete tit of himself he is. Came across dreadfully. He's so much worse than Dianne Abbott could ever be but doesn't get anywhere near the flack he actually deserves.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 15, 2019, 10:38:48
The private sector have had 10 years of promising to bring high speed  broadband to 90+% of the UK and have failed miserably. Ultra capitalist S Korea has precisely this kind of arrangement, and 98% fibre broadband penetration as a result, because they recognise the importance of investing in infrastructure to compete. If we're going to compete as "Global Britain" outside of the EU, we will need this kind of investment in our infrastructure.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 15, 2019, 10:47:42
The private sector have had 10 years of promising to bring high speed  broadband to 90+% of the UK and have failed miserably. Ultra capitalist S Korea has precisely this kind of arrangement, and 98% fibre broadband penetration as a result, because they recognise the importance of investing in infrastructure to compete. If we're going to compete as "Global Britain" outside of the EU, we will need this kind of investment in our infrastructure.

Somewhat ironically a lot of the funding for rural broadband improvements comes from..... you've guessed it..... the EU!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 15, 2019, 10:52:03
Somewhat ironically a lot of the funding for rural broadband improvements comes from..... you've guessed it..... the EU!
Hush now, you and your facts. Nice to see Toby Young among many other Brexiteers demonstrating their ignorance of how the EU works by declaring that this would fall foul of state aid. Clueless


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 15, 2019, 10:54:30
 When I first got the internet it was free. 

Long time ago now, but NTL's contractors dug up the streets, they were a crack workforce, spent their breaks smoking weed and so ripped out a lot of infrastructure which had been replaced, due to being Victorian, a few years earlier.... still they put it all back again. Didn't wait too long being without, water electric etc.

So thinks I, seems a good deal.  It wasn't free for long.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 15, 2019, 11:03:02
Still winning..... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50419130

Its Steve Barclay's turn to illustrate what numbnuts the hard brexiteers tend to be...

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1195088298257133572


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 15, 2019, 11:18:26
If people had been saying this 5 years ago I suspect we would not be where we are now...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-oP-aC9CrI

Although Labour could possibly have a word with Len McCluskey who is continuing to do just this!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 15, 2019, 12:02:34
The reason I think that nationalised free broadband is a massive waste of time, in order of priority:

1. Massive waste of money. Private sector is doing just fine.The reason fiber isn't at 90% is because its prohibitively expensive. You will never get 100% anyway, and will have to use fill in technologies to compensate

2. Uncompetitive practice, unfair on other business. The 'bundle' companies will just raise prices of other products to compensate. Others will go under.

3. Money better spent elsewhere (see 1). You can do free broadband without the need to nationalise . Let a private company do it.

4. The ability for the government to more easily control/block content in the future.

5. Privacy concerns (though frankly GCHQ have the ability to do everything on existing providers).



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 15, 2019, 12:28:26
The reason I think that nationalised free broadband is a massive waste of time, in order of priority:

1. Massive waste of money. Private sector is doing just fine.
It really isn't. They've done a shit job, despite substantial co-investment from successive governments. We live on the outskirts of Swindon, so hardly the back of beyond, and the best we can get is 30Mb on a good day via 4G. Wired broadband is quoted at 10-18Mb and from bitter previous experience they wouldn't get near that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 15, 2019, 12:30:30
In other news, the Bus of Lies is back. "The lies on the bus go round and round, round and round....."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 15, 2019, 12:39:04
In other news, the Bus of Lies is back. "The lies on the bus go round and round, round and round....."

You'd think they'd want to distance themselves from messages on the side of buses.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, November 15, 2019, 12:49:04
You'd think they'd want to distance themselves from messages on the side of buses.

Why?  The last one worked for them.

On Broadband - I can see a good case for creating a standalone National company owned by the Govt. to crack on get it done, then sell it off or run it at arms length.  Infrastructure is an area where you can rightly point to a Govt. being the best provider - it doesn't get bogged down by whether all of it is profitable or not, so everyone gets the benefit.  I also like the foreign approach which is to essentially run them as a business, rather then the UK approach which is to run them as job centres.

Someone mentioned the Italian Train company getting involved in UK rail, god help you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 15, 2019, 12:54:26
It really isn't. They've done a shit job, despite substantial co-investment from successive governments. We live on the outskirts of Swindon, so hardly the back of beyond, and the best we can get is 30Mb on a good day via 4G. Wired broadband is quoted at 10-18Mb and from bitter previous experience they wouldn't get near that.

Yes it is. In the bounds of profitability its doing fine.

What Labour are proposing is going to cost money with a very long ROI for a private company.

And the point is, if you want to provide a better service at a loss,  you don't need to take on the cost of nationalisation to do it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 15, 2019, 13:04:22
Yes it is. In the bounds of profitability its doing fine.
And that's the problem, the private sector is always going to be constrained by considerations of profit, not the wider national interest. Which is where government investment in essential national infrastructure comes in. Same reason we don't have private motorways


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Friday, November 15, 2019, 13:08:00
Just lies to get votes.

4 day working week
free internet
free double glazing and new heating system
removal of the 2 child limit to benefits
free prescriptions


I wonder what will be next?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, November 15, 2019, 13:17:06
Just lies to get votes.

I presume you aren't voting for Boris then


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Friday, November 15, 2019, 13:21:20
The UK is fked.

Both the major parties offering idiot binge spending as their election pledges.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 15, 2019, 13:25:02
I presume you aren't voting for Boris then

It's estimated that Brexit so far has cost £2 Billion.... that's waste on things like Grayling's non existent boats, melted down 50ps and an ad campaign for an event which never happened. Although not only Johnson's lies caused this waste, he bears a large responsibility.

This before we get the hard Brexit which will cost £ billions more....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Friday, November 15, 2019, 13:26:34
It looks as though the Spectator thinks it's a bad idea!

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/a-british-broadband-corporation-is-labours-worst-idea-yet/ (https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/a-british-broadband-corporation-is-labours-worst-idea-yet/)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 15, 2019, 13:29:25
Just lies to get votes.

4 day working week
free internet
free double glazing and new heating system
removal of the 2 child limit to benefits
free prescriptions


I wonder what will be next?
Will lie down in front of bulldozers to stop 3rd runway at Heathrow
Out by 31st October
Definitely won't prorogue parliament
Didn't have affair with Petronella Wyatt
Sacked from the Times for making up quotes from sources
Lied to Max Hastings when he worked at the Telegraph
Claimed Turkey was joining the EU (and then lied about having said it in the first place - lying about lying)
£350m a week for the NHS
Lied about his coke habit
Made up completely false story about EU regulations on condom sizes (again while he was at the Telegraph)
Lied about not knowing the Leave campaign he headed was breaking electoral law
We will leave the EU as one whole nation
Lied to Northern Irish manufacturers about customs forms under his deal

That's just (a small sample of) Johnson's lies, Gove has got an equally extensive list as has Liam Fox, David Davis, Raab and the rest. Don't think accusations of lying is a strong suit for Tories, tbh.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 15, 2019, 13:32:07
Just lies to get votes.

4 day working week
free internet
free double glazing and new heating system
removal of the 2 child limit to benefits
free prescriptions


I wonder what will be next?

Who knows maybe...

1. Parliament voted to approve the Brexit deal
2. He's building 40 new hospitals
3. Labour want to ban Ofsted
4. Labour will have no controls on immigration
5. Labour will allow a Scottish independence referendum in 2020
6. Labour voted against tax cuts for workers

And these were just the lies crammed into the campaign launch speech?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 15, 2019, 13:33:53
In other news, the Bus of Lies is back. "The lies on the bus go round and round, round and round....."

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/75521983_2406382172817294_4803471516672983040_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_oc=AQkpbzBgGii5oU5_4RNzs7ka4WI2dAEbZB-AvM1_C0Bj6cepxHwnUr8aKb-6hIjjqNc&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=6d41a98f41782debea20af598940698d&oe=5E5B1EF3)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 15, 2019, 13:36:31
It looks as though the Spectator thinks it's a bad idea!

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/a-british-broadband-corporation-is-labours-worst-idea-yet/ (https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/a-british-broadband-corporation-is-labours-worst-idea-yet/)

A Torygraph journalist rubbishes a Labour policy?

Whatever next?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 15, 2019, 13:39:12
https://boris-johnson-lies.com

Fact checking website about Johnson's lies. Written by a Tory journalist.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 15, 2019, 13:52:55
Interesting research on the potential costs/savings of re nationalisations.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nationalise-royal-mail-energy-water-savings-bills-national-grid-a9203636.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, November 15, 2019, 13:53:13
It looks as though the Spectator thinks it's a bad idea!

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/a-british-broadband-corporation-is-labours-worst-idea-yet/ (https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/a-british-broadband-corporation-is-labours-worst-idea-yet/)

A blog owned by a pair of billionaire sociopaths think a social policy is bad? Well I never!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, November 15, 2019, 13:53:29
https://boris-johnson-lies.com

Fact checking website about Johnson's lies. Written by a Tory journalist.

This is brilliant.  And even better, it works equally well with 'lies' as a noun or a verb.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, November 15, 2019, 14:02:28
Here's a left leaning economist who thinks it's a good idea...

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/11/15/why-labours-right-to-be-talking-nationalisation/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 15, 2019, 14:06:02
Here's a left leaning economist who thinks it's a good idea...

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/11/15/why-labours-right-to-be-talking-nationalisation/

Who'da thunk it?

It's almost as though people are likely to form opinions on specific policies according to how they fit in with their own political worldview. Every day's a learning experience.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, November 15, 2019, 14:09:19
Mental, isn't it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 15, 2019, 14:10:22
He really is useless

https://twitter.com/DancingTheMind/status/1195288360723595269


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 15, 2019, 15:08:29
From the BBC, again:

(https://i.imgur.com/km2HtXh.jpg)

The banner was on the screen for around 2 minutes during the interview, and it was a quote from a person that was not even being interviewed at the time.

I'm willing to accept that mistakes happen, but these 'mistakes' seem to be happening far too often. And, just by coincidence, they are all in favour of the tories.

If these really are genuine mistakes, then somebody at the top should be banging some fucking heads together.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 15, 2019, 15:11:36
From the BBC, again:

(https://i.imgur.com/km2HtXh.jpg)

The banner was on the screen for around 2 minutes during the interview, and it was a quote from a person that was not even being interviewed at the time.

I'm willing to accept that mistakes happen, but these 'mistakes' seem to be happening far too often. And, just by coincidence, they are all in favour of the tories.

If these really are genuine mistakes, then somebody at the top should be banging some fucking heads together.
It's a fucking stupid quote anyway, like describing the M4 as "motorway communism" or the NHS as "medical communism". Is this where the right in this country is going, where literally any provision of public goods or infrastructure by the government is "communism"? Oafs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 15, 2019, 15:16:13
From the BBC, again:
The banner was on the screen for around 2 minutes during the interview, and it was a quote from a person that was not even being interviewed at the time.

I'm willing to accept that mistakes happen, but these 'mistakes' seem to be happening far too often. And, just by coincidence, they are all in favour of the tories.

If these really are genuine mistakes, then somebody at the top should be banging some fucking heads together.

The BBC has long been the mouthpiece of the Tory party, now they fear being privatised so don't worry too much about being seen as neutral.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, November 15, 2019, 15:27:07
Who'da thunk it?

It's almost as though people are likely to form opinions on specific policies according to how they fit in with their own political worldview. Every day's a learning experience.

Indeed  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Friday, November 15, 2019, 15:29:47
This election is very much our own Trump vs Hildog, absolutely detestable leaders on both sides that don't deserve our votes. You've got the comedy clan on the Tory side and a pair of pensioners stuck in a time warp on the Labour side who who just jump on any bandwagon that comes along and offer 'free stuff'.

Would never vote for Corbyn as despise him along with McDonnell and vowed to never vote for Johnson so doesn't leave much scope for a meaningful vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, November 15, 2019, 16:05:12
The BBC has long been the mouthpiece of the Tory party, now they fear being privatised so don't worry too much about being seen as neutral.

And yet in paper's like The Sun, the BBC is portrayed as the devil incarnate for perceived left wing bias.  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 15, 2019, 16:24:14
And yet in paper's like The Sun, the BBC is portrayed as the devil incarnate for perceived left wing bias.  :hmmm:

Of course.  These media conglomerates want to do away with it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, November 15, 2019, 16:32:19
Not sure there is such a thing as a meaningful vote in this election.
The majority of the electorate choosing to go Christmas shopping would be meaningful.
Let the Tories enjoy their mandate on a 10-15% turnout.

If I vote, it will be Labour, and look upon it as a tactical vote.
The current North Swindon MP could do with a spell back in nightclub management.
The Labour candidate has the whiff of anti something or other.
Tomlinson just has a whiff. Full stop.

Whatever happens will sleep easy on election night.
Might have to dust down the "don't blame me I voted Labour badge" though.

Watching recent PMQs it's Corbyn who comes across as the more statesmanlike of the two.
In attack mode Johnson comes across like some over sized witchetty grub on helium.
No doubt Central Office will take steps to tone that down when it comes to the debates.

Will have a look at the manifestos when they come out, with reference to the environment & climate change. The most important issue, but unfortunately won't be seen as such by most.

Special mention for Govt in waiting, the Lib Dems.
The memory of Nick & Dave's best pals act in the back garden of no 10 is still vomit inducing.
And Clegg even bothering to stand in a constituency full of students just shows that the vast majority of politicians are just a bit thick.

Don't forget. The shops will be open late on the 12th.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 15, 2019, 17:01:33
Ha ha this is superb fuckwittery from Steve Barclay, even in the crowded field provided by his cabinet colleagues:

https://twitter.com/SteveBarclay/status/1194966699621208064?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 15, 2019, 17:03:57
I liked the bit where more foreign stars somehow means more players for the national team.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Friday, November 15, 2019, 17:04:59
Interesting research on the potential costs/savings of re nationalisations.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nationalise-royal-mail-energy-water-savings-bills-national-grid-a9203636.html
Having read the broadband policy specifically it appears his plan is to pay off shareholders with government bonds at a rate and return set by the government but almost certainly at a lower value than the stock price. Factor in the value crash when people try to sell before they get stuck with a bond and its tantamount to theft as it will leave a lot of people out of pocket especially as almost certainly you won’t be able to cash them in early like selling shares. My family have quite a few shares in BT so they can fuck right to off!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 15, 2019, 17:12:18
From the BBC, again:

(https://i.imgur.com/km2HtXh.jpg)

The banner was on the screen for around 2 minutes during the interview, and it was a quote from a person that was not even being interviewed at the time.

I'm willing to accept that mistakes happen, but these 'mistakes' seem to be happening far too often. And, just by coincidence, they are all in favour of the tories.

If these really are genuine mistakes, then somebody at the top should be banging some fucking heads together.

The quote was from a comment made by the MD of BT, who obviously doesn't have an ulterior motive for not wanting a nationalised broadband system...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Friday, November 15, 2019, 18:42:43
Out of interest what are Labour saying about the many ordinary folks who have thousands invested in BT shares, currently paying about 7% according to one report, so many have pensions and retirement plans etc hanging off this.

Presumably Labour are saying nothing but expecting to say tough titty you dirty rich capitalists. I don't have BT shares, as it happens, so no axe near the grinding stone for me.

Will they will be compensated with UK government bonds?
Backed by a government which is running round expropriating private property.

Should be useful when the shops run out of bog roll.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 15, 2019, 19:02:16
Still winning..... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50419130

Its Steve Barclay's turn to illustrate what numbnuts the hard brexiteers tend to be...

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1195088298257133572

What a fucking idiot. Despite being irrelevant we can look at Liverpool FC instantly - they have about 8 (eight) first team players from South America & Africa... I-


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 15, 2019, 19:06:58
Out of interest what are Labour saying about the many ordinary folks who have thousands invested in BT shares, currently paying about 7% according to one report, so many have pensions and retirement plans etc hanging off this.

theakston's already answered this, two posts up from yours. Helps if you read the thread :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 15, 2019, 19:36:28
By way of balance, Reg must be super excited at the Tories' promise to reopen some of the lines and stations closed by Beeching - enough to tempt you over to the dark side, Reg? :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, November 15, 2019, 19:50:02
By way of balance, Reg must be super excited at the Tories' promise to reopen some of the lines and stations closed by Beeching - enough to tempt you over to the dark side, Reg? :)

If they were to reopen the line through Old Town, it might just about swing it.   :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 15, 2019, 19:52:35
By way of balance, Reg must be super excited at the Tories' promise to reopen some of the lines and stations closed by Beeching - enough to tempt you over to the dark side, Reg? :)

I was going to post up something on this, but not until I'd read a bit more extensively on the subject.  On the surface seems a good idea.... there has to be a catch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 15, 2019, 20:56:44
I was going to post up something on this, but not until I'd read a bit more extensively on the subject.  On the surface seems a good idea.... tenre has to be a catch.
Well, there's all the rest of their policies. And Johnson's complete inability to deliver anything he promises. I'd say those count as two fairly major hitches


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 15, 2019, 21:40:59
Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (aka "Tommy Robinson" when he's not in one of his frequent appearances in court) has joined Donald Trump, Victor Orban, Steve Bannon, Jair Balsanaro and other leading fascists in endorsing Johnson. Nothing Johnson can do about that of course, but if you have a list of extremist low-lifes like this endorsing a party and enthusiastically backing their ideas for the country, you have to wonder whether perhaps they're maybe a bit off course. Anyone really fancy being on the same side as this lot in backing the Trump-Farage-Johnson axis?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Friday, November 15, 2019, 21:45:34
Out of interest what are Labour saying about the many ordinary folks who have thousands invested in BT shares, currently paying about 7% according to one report, so many have pensions and retirement plans etc hanging off this.

Presumably Labour are saying nothing but expecting to say tough titty you dirty rich capitalists. I don't have BT shares, as it happens, so no axe near the grinding stone for me.

Will they will be compensated with UK government bonds?
Backed by a government which is running round expropriating private property.

Should be useful when the shops run out of bog roll.....
As I’ve said shares will be purchased using government valued bonds that are liable to be worth much less than current share prices and have people locked into a long duration for them to mature. The whole thing relies on investors funding these bonds which based on the premise that their whole nationalisation programme follows the same path seems far fetched and likely to lead to said bonds being practically worthless. The cynic inside me would say this is Labours plan and it would just be a paper exercise to pretend they compensated people and next time there is a recession they can just blame that on loss of value. Like I said they can fuck right off as it’s effectively theft!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Friday, November 15, 2019, 22:20:01
Paul, I admire your persistence but honestly mate, just take it easy for a couple of days. You really aren’t doing yourself any favours getting so worked up - just relax and enjoy the weekend which will hopefully bring 3 points for STFC  :)

On another note, I think we should get a poll going - what will Labour promise next from their never ending money tree? I’m hoping for a trip to the moon...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Friday, November 15, 2019, 23:13:39
Paul, I admire your persistence but honestly mate, just take it easy for a couple of days. You really aren’t doing yourself any favours getting so worked up - just relax and enjoy the weekend which will hopefully bring 3 points for STFC  :)

On another note, I think we should get a poll going - what will Labour promise next from their never ending money tree? I’m hoping for a trip to the moon...


I'm hoping for a billion pounds for the DUP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 15, 2019, 23:27:43
Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (aka "Tommy Robinson" when he's not in one of his frequent appearances in court) has joined Donald Trump, Victor Orban, Steve Bannon, Jair Balsanaro and other leading fascists in endorsing Johnson. Nothing Johnson can do about that of course, but if you have a list of extremist low-lifes like this endorsing a party and enthusiastically backing their ideas for the country, you have to wonder whether perhaps they're maybe a bit off course. Anyone really fancy being on the same side as this lot in backing the Trump-Farage-Johnson axis?

It has crossed my mind that the blatant bigotry against Muslims in the Tory party might actually GAIN them votes.

Corbyn's just doing the wrong kind of racism (allegedly).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Saturday, November 16, 2019, 09:46:42
There are so many things wrong with this idiotic policy that it is hard to know where to start, but how about considering innovation? In case anyone hadn't noticed, IT infrastructure is continuing to develop rather quickly. The shit we invest in now is likely to be obsolete in a few years. If you've got one organisation providing the communications infrastructure, what's their motivation to keep up to date? What's their motivation to innovate? How are their "customers" able to encourage them to change?

"I'll give £50 to anyone who can give me this new service that is currently available in Germany, India, the States, etc."

"Sorry, we're the monopoly provider. No one else is allowed to provide you with the service."

"Well here's £50 if you'll give it me."

"Sorry, we can't take money from you. Our services are free."

"Will you give me the new service?"

"Why would we do that?"

If we want to pretty much guarantee we end up with the lowest common denominator, out-of-date infrastructure provided inefficiently and expensively, then sign up to this idiotic policy.

If you want to close the digital divide then use targeted subsidy. Put the money in the hands of consumers and let them buy the services they want.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, November 16, 2019, 13:02:37
If we want to pretty much guarantee we end up with the lowest common denominator, out-of-date infrastructure provided inefficiently and expensively, then sign up to this idiotic policy.

If you want to close the digital divide then use targeted subsidy. Put the money in the hands of consumers and let them buy the services they want.
That's pretty much the situation we have now. I would happily pay for fibre to the door but no-one is willing to install it (I've asked). I had BT's "superfast" (or whatever they call it) fibre to the cabinet and it was shit, like ADSL 2Mb shit, because the cabinet was miles away and openreach wouldn't install a cabinet nearer or upgrade the wiring between our road and the cab. The myth that the private sector is always more efficient and effective is just that, a myth. It might be for the 80% of low-hanging fruit, where it's easy, but they're just not interested for the other 20%.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, November 16, 2019, 13:17:10
I was surprised to find out that connectivity is so low in Britain. I think I get a better service here.

So, yeah, the private sector seem to be doing a sterling job over there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Saturday, November 16, 2019, 13:33:06
I live in upper stratton and its standard copper BT or Virgin. BT were shite despite the cabinet being close.
No plans to install fiber in the area either.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, November 16, 2019, 13:36:39
I have fiber.

Depending on the time of day, I can download a movie in 10-15 minutes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Saturday, November 16, 2019, 14:05:49
By way of balance, Reg must be super excited at the Tories' promise to reopen some of the lines and stations closed by Beeching - enough to tempt you over to the dark side, Reg? :)

£20 million a mile give or take so the promised 500 million wont go far


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Saturday, November 16, 2019, 14:53:00
I have fiber.

Depending on the time of day, I can download a movie in 10-15 minutes.

Is that service provided by the state or a private company?

Genuine question, I know you live somewhere in the far east but no idea where.  Presumably not Hong Kong!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, November 16, 2019, 15:13:07
He's in Bangkok.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, November 16, 2019, 15:50:35
Bangkok.

And it's a private company. There's 2 that both offer a good service. Social media use in Thailand is among the highest on the planet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, November 16, 2019, 16:02:35
Oh, wait.

I just checked and I'm wrong. My connection is state-owned, but there is also a very good private provider.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Saturday, November 16, 2019, 20:43:15
I have fiber.

Depending on the time of day, I can download a movie in 10-15 minutes.

Is that a euphemism for a huge dump?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 00:16:44
That's pretty much the situation we have now. I would happily pay for fibre to the door but no-one is willing to install it (I've asked). I had BT's "superfast" (or whatever they call it) fibre to the cabinet and it was shit, like ADSL 2Mb shit, because the cabinet was miles away and openreach wouldn't install a cabinet nearer or upgrade the wiring between our road and the cab. The myth that the private sector is always more efficient and effective is just that, a myth. It might be for the 80% of low-hanging fruit, where it's easy, but they're just not interested for the other 20%.

Good morning, is that the British Nationalised Broadband Service? I was just calling to check when my free broadband was being supplied?

Hello sir and thank you for calling. Just checking.....next date free is March 24th, 2034, in the morning. is that good for you?

Errr..can you do the afternoon, I've got the British Nationalised Gas Board here that morning to investigate the leak I reported 18 months ago.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 00:26:09
Here he is..it's "Late Night Lorenzo" with his bag full of bumbling bullshit. Always easier to criticise under the cover of darkness. Tell ya what fella, do yourself a favour and leave the bullshit to me. I know your intentions are pure and designed to take any aggro I receive away and it is appreciated but really - it is what it is dude.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 03:23:33
I think the labour party is missing a trick. Nationalise the 5g network at the same time. The old bt cables are worthless anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 07:50:33

On another note, I think we should get a poll going - what will Labour promise next from their never ending money tree? I’m hoping for a trip to the moon...

Yet no questioning on how the Tories are going to pay for:

£100bn investment over five years on road, rail and other infrastructure
20,000 more police officers over the next three years in England and Wales
£2.7bn for six new hospitals and plans for 34 more
£7.1bn a year more for schools in England by 2022-23


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 10:01:48
Free broadband seems just plain wrong to me.  I pay for my broadband and can afford to.  There are so many better things for the public purse to be spending it's finite resources on than giving me free broadband. 

By contrast the announcement today that Labour will re-introduce universal free dental check-ups is precisely the sort of thing that a decent society should be providing for its citizens.  This is such a worthwhile preventative step but the obvious reality is that few people relish a trip to the dentist and having to pay for a check-up provides the perfect excuse to let it slip. This won't get everyone to go for a regular check but it will certainly help.

It would be great if the Tories followed suit but I won't hold my breath.  Presumably they were the ones to take it away in the first place.  Or possibly Blair.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 11:23:28
It would be great if the Tories followed suit but I won't hold my breath. 

If you don't visit your dentist regularly then it might be a good idea, if you do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 12:20:06
I’d argue in this day and age that access to the internet should be treated as a public necessity in the same way as gas, electricity and water is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 12:25:29
I’d argue in this day and age that access to the internet should be treated as a public necessity in the same way as gas, electricity and water is.

And from an education perspective, with the amount of kids living in poverty and identified as Pupil Premium who don’t have support with learning at home from parents or easy access to the internet (even if they have a mobile device) this would be a game changer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Richie Wellen-Dowd on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 12:40:05
Also, the effect on the economy of improved speeds would be absolutely massive. Our productivity as a nation is shamefully low.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 12:40:37
And from an education perspective, with the amount of kids living in poverty and identified as Pupil Premium who don’t have support with learning at home from parents or easy access to the internet (even if they have a mobile device) this would be a game changer.

I agree but how do you make sure that children in those homes actually get access. Do you provide the necessary equipment for free in the home or do you provide areas in schools


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 12:48:51
Also, the effect on the economy of improved would be absolutely massive. Our productivity as a nation is shamefully low.

Its low yes but in what areas do you mean specifically or is it all areas.

IMHO you're making a big assumption that there are only upsides to what's proposed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 12:50:22
Quote from: Bogus Dave
I’d argue in this day and age that access to the internet should be treated as a public necessity in the same way as gas, electricity and water is.


surely libraries have public internet access.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 13:57:17
Free broadband seems just plain wrong to me.  I pay for my broadband and can afford to. 

A lot of people simply can't afford broadband though.

My brother, for example, worked part time in a supermarket and simply couldn't afford it and had 4 kids at school. They had to go round my parents to use the internet to help with their homework.

But, good for you, you can afford to pay for it, so you're alright.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 14:02:05

surely libraries have public internet access.

Yes, but using the water example we don’t expect people to have to go to another building to wash up or have a shower


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 17:09:15
A lot of people simply can't afford broadband though.

My brother, for example, worked part time in a supermarket and simply couldn't afford it and had 4 kids at school. They had to go round my parents to use the internet to help with their homework.

But, good for you, you can afford to pay for it, so you're alright.

That's a rather shitty jibe.  My objection was not to providing free broadband but to providing it universally for free to people who are lucky enough to be able to afford it.  Every £ of child benefit, free school meals, OAP bus passes, tv licences etc. given to people who don't need it is a £ that can't be targeted where it is genuinely needed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 19:28:20
Yes, but using the water example we don’t expect people to have to go to another building to wash up or have a shower
But we pay water rates though, right?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 20:07:51
*sings* Ohhhh theeeee Grand Old Duke of York...he had ten thousand...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, November 17, 2019, 21:58:54
*sings* Ohhhh theeeee Grand Old Duke of York...he had ten thousand...
He didn't have 10,000, a few dozen probably, maybe. And they weren't men, they were underage girls. Allegedly


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, November 18, 2019, 00:11:03
Was thinking 10k potential lawsuits. It doesn't look good.

Funny how he can't remember ever meeting this girl at all but can vividly remember going to Pizza Express ONCE. Just so happened to remember it, once someone mentioned it (with a chuckle). As if it were akin to handing out an OBE.

Selective memory is incredibly common in the guilty, so I'm told. Cognitive dissonance at play? Which would explain why he is probably coming across so blazé.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 18, 2019, 09:27:13
Was thinking 10k potential lawsuits. It doesn't look good.

Funny how he can't remember ever meeting this girl at all but can vividly remember going to Pizza Express ONCE. Just so happened to remember it, once someone mentioned it (with a chuckle). As if it were akin to handing out an OBE.

Selective memory is incredibly common in the guilty, so I'm told. Cognitive dissonance at play? Which would explain why he is probably coming across so blazé.
Blase, it's blase. Don't think it's as complex as that. There's two explanations:
1) He has a massive sense of entitlement and just thinks he can do what he wants because the rules don't apply to him. Like Johnson, Rees-Mogg et al.
2) That's one hell of a Pizza Express in Woking.
I'm going with option 2. I hear the dough balls alone are sensational


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 18, 2019, 09:29:22

surely libraries have public internet access.

Libraries, what are they?

Seriously though one can image that if Labour were to propose creating places where people couild borrow books to read, the Tory faithful would be screaming Stalin at them?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Monday, November 18, 2019, 09:31:36
Libraries, what are they?

Seriously though one can image that if Labour were to propose creating places where people couild borrow books to read, the Tory faithful would be screaming Stalin at them?

I saw something earlier which showed the Conservatives screaming Communism at their top of the lungs when the NHS was first introduced.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 18, 2019, 09:37:21
Was thinking 10k potential lawsuits. It doesn't look good.

Funny how he can't remember ever meeting this girl at all but can vividly remember going to Pizza Express ONCE. Just so happened to remember it, once someone mentioned it (with a chuckle). As if it were akin to handing out an OBE.

Selective memory is incredibly common in the guilty, so I'm told. Cognitive dissonance at play? Which would explain why he is probably coming across so blazé.

I have never been to a Pizza Express and on that basis I am concluding I am posher than the royal family. I assume it would be fairly easy to establish whether this stacks up as on would expect the protection team to keep records, I cannot image he just popped off there on his own. I also felt that the perspiration excuse was a stonker, it being an ailment he had then, but has has apparently got over now.

However it was all rather trumped by Lady Colin Campbell's (look her up on Wiki, when you read her background you can understand why she might be a bit different)  performance of GMB this morning where she was defending him less a case of 'hold my beer', more a case of hold my 'Dubonnet and Gin'

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson_MP/status/1196359317676539904


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 18, 2019, 10:02:02
However it was all rather trumped by Lady Colin Campbell's (look her up on Wiki, when you read her background you can understand why she might be a bit different)  performance of GMB this morning where she was defending him less a case of 'hold my beer', more a case of hold my 'Dubonnet and Gin'

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson_MP/status/1196359317676539904
That's quite incredible. Maybe she thought the offence was "soliciting prostitution with miners" and couldn't understand why everyone was getting upset about Epstein paying burly blokes from Yorkshire and South Wales for sex?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, November 18, 2019, 10:22:05

surely libraries have public internet access.

LIBRARY?! THAT'S FUCKING BOOK COMMUNISM  :furious: :furious: :furious: :furious: :furious:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 18, 2019, 10:27:01
LIBRARY?! THAT'S FUCKING BOOK COMMUNISM  :furious: :furious: :furious: :furious: :furious:

This article tells you what the local Tories think of libraries...

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/feb/09/swindons-libraries-closures-60-per-cent-cuts


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 18, 2019, 12:14:06
Well, it's one way of getting Johnson to keep control of his Johnson I suppose:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJkeQNrWwAU7Ve9?format=jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 18, 2019, 14:26:10
Is there a mechanism by which a Prince can resign?

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/prince-andrew-rohan-silva-language-a4289571.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, November 18, 2019, 15:50:15
Is there a mechanism by which a Prince can resign?

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/prince-andrew-rohan-silva-language-a4289571.html

I think they can be struck from the civil list, but my evidence for that is Blackadder III, so it may not be the cunning plan I'd hoped it might be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 18, 2019, 15:51:48
You can say what you want about the bloke, he's a busy bugger!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/18/boris-johnson-jennifer-arcuri-investigation-to-review-affair-with-another-woman

Not sure how he can fit the time needed to be PM in with all his extra curricular activities.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 18, 2019, 16:10:13
You can say what you want about the bloke, he's a busy bugger!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/18/boris-johnson-jennifer-arcuri-investigation-to-review-affair-with-another-woman

Not sure how he can fit the time needed to be PM in with all his extra curricular activities.
The same way he managed when he was mayor of London and Foreign Secretary - by not bothering to do the job properly. He's notoriously lazy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 18, 2019, 16:15:15
Just a reminder, because I'm sure Gove will want people to remember what he thinks of people pushed into poverty by his government's austerity policies:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2416737/Michael-Gove-food-banks-Poor-got-blame.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 18, 2019, 16:23:25
Just a reminder, because I'm sure Gove will want people to remember what he thinks of people pushed into poverty by his government's austerity policies:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2416737/Michael-Gove-food-banks-Poor-got-blame.html

That was Gove 6 years ago.... the Tories have moved much further to the right since.... it'll be a return of the workhouse next for the undeserving poor.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 18, 2019, 16:28:04
That was Gove 6 years ago.... the Tories have moved much further to the right since.... it'll be a return of the workhouse next for the undeserving poor.
Or just straight to Soylent Green?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, November 18, 2019, 16:30:11
Reg, totally unrelated but it is political, have you ever stood as a councillor elect?

I often wonder why more people don't, especially locally. When you look at results in many wards, to obtain a seat often only takes the convincing of around 750 - 1000 votes. I always see that as a pretty low benchmark but shows how with pretty minimal influence, one could become an elected member of the LA.

Should that be dangerously scary or very encouraging? For if someone is serious about their politics and views then this is an achievable scenario, no?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 18, 2019, 17:46:52
Reg, totally unrelated but it is political, have you ever stood as a councillor elect?

I often wonder why more people don't, especially locally. When you look at results in many wards, to obtain a seat often only takes the convincing of around 750 - 1000 votes. I always see that as a pretty low benchmark but shows how with pretty minimal influence, one could become an elected member of the LA.

Should that be dangerously scary or very encouraging? For if someone is serious about their politics and views then this is an achievable scenario, no?

For some years, I was involved in local politics, also Trade Unionism. My grandfather was a local councilor for 35 years, people used to say to me, that I should stand, but I knew it wasn't me. 

I'm particularly bad at meetings, committees etc, can live with the odd one or two every so often, but I've always preferred being an outsider, free to think what I want.

However, I did help to get elected several people who did want a crack at it which was interesting.

Having kids and work got in the way, and I reduced my effort to being a school governor for some years, then gave that up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, November 18, 2019, 18:07:46
For some years, I was involved in local politics, also Trade Unionism. My grandfather was a local councilor for 35 years, people used to say to me, that I should stand, but I knew it wasn't me. 

I'm particularly bad at meetings, committees etc, can live with the odd one or two every so often, but I've always preferred being an outsider, free to think what I want.

However, I did help to get elected several people who did want a crack at it which was interesting.

Having kids and work got in the way, and I reduced my effort to being a school governor for some years, then gave that up.

Thanks for the insight. Back to my main question though, does it not seem like a very low number needed to gain a councillor seat?

If one maintains that edge of local popularity and is visible/approachable too then retaining the seat becomes fairly easy every four years. Not talking about gaining any control but just keeping a seat (most wards have around 3 seats up for grabs). It seems a very small target and not too much convincing of electorate to do so. For once - 3rd place can be quite an attractive proposition if politics is the bag of choice.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 18, 2019, 18:24:24
Thanks for the insight. Back to my main question though, does it not seem like a very low number needed to gain a councillor seat?

If one maintains that edge of local popularity and is visible/approachable too then retaining the seat becomes fairly easy every four years. Not talking about gaining any control but just keeping a seat (most wards have around 3 seats up for grabs). It seems a very small target and not too much convincing of electorate to do so. For once - 3rd place can be quite an attractive proposition if politics is the bag of choice.

Depending on wards, turnout is usually quite low, but also turnover of Councillors tends to be quite high.

Depending on the party calibre of candidate can vary, you get some who see it as a way of ending up as MP.... Tomlinson for example, some who do it for the expenses, and some who do it out of a sense of civic duty.

So if you find a nice safe ward, then yes you can be sat there with your feet up.... my ward used to be a 3 three way marginal which made it interesting.... part of our motivation was to try and oust the couple of sitting Tory councillors, which we achieved and they've never come back.

I did laugh though when we got rid of the Tory leader, he promptly got himself selected for a safe ward, by ousting the previous sitting councillor for selection to stand at the next rotation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Monday, November 18, 2019, 19:00:14
Depending on wards, turnout is usually quite low, but also turnover of Councillors tends to be quite high.

Depending on the party calibre of candidate can vary, you get some who see it as a way of ending up as MP.... Tomlinson for example, some who do it for the expenses, and some who do it out of a sense of civic duty.

So if you find a nice safe ward, then yes you can be sat there with your feet up.... my ward used to be a 3 three way marginal which made it interesting.... part of our motivation was to try and oust the couple of sitting Tory councillors, which we achieved and they've never come back.

I did laugh though when we got rid of the Tory leader, he promptly got himself selected for a safe ward, by ousting the previous sitting councillor for selection to stand at the next rotation.

So did you get anything done or just spend the time claiming expenses and playing party politics :-)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, November 18, 2019, 19:10:16
Depending on wards, turnout is usually quite low, but also turnover of Councillors tends to be quite high.

So if you find a nice safe ward, then yes you can be sat there with your feet up.... my ward used to be a 3 three way marginal which made it interesting.... part of our motivation was to try and oust the couple of sitting Tory councillors, which we achieved and they've never come back.

Yes turnouts are lowish at around 35% of roughly 6-7k
electorate on average per ward. The high Councillor turnover I'd say is more down to the system of 1/3rds.

In some ways in reference to "feet up", I probably mean the number of Independents who have obtained a non controlling seat recently. I would say it could be a common picture for the foreseeable. 650+ seats gained if memory searches back to earlier this year, took it to above 1k. For Indys to hold a 1/10th of seats across the wards nationally is pretty impressive. With public disillusion in politics, comes opportunity.

I imagine the politics within local politics can be very interesting/frustrating/revealing for those involved "properly".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 10:13:58
I think this is satire, but don't quote me on it!

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/the-daily-mail-guide-to-corbyns-communist-britain-20191119190912


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 12:16:27
Not just Labour that has a problem with anti-Semitism:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-50468770

Looking forward to the 2-page spread in tomorrow's Mail about this


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 12:27:26
Rather depressing watch, I am fairly interested in the process but I didn't realise just how much of a stitch up it is!

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2019/11/19/watch-eu-law-expert-professor-michael-dougan-dissects-boris-johnsons-brexit-deal/

https://www.businessinsider.com/government-has-no-plans-for-economic-assessment-of-brexit-deal-2019-11?r=US&IR=T


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 12:29:19

Looking forward to the 2-page spread in tomorrow's Mail about this

lolz


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 12:39:06
Not just Labour that has a problem with anti-Semitism:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-50468770

Looking forward to the 2-page spread in tomorrow's Mail about this

I think Islamophobia is mainly the Toriees bag....

It pains me defend them (sort of), but remarkably the Mail is at least reporting it. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7699869/Tory-candidate-suspended-party-online-comments.html

This popped up yesterday about Corbyn which without judgement as I don't really recall the background was rather interesting...

https://twitter.com/TimesCorbyn/status/1196152671297818625


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 12:40:51
lolz

Mail are too busy with this anyway.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7699985/How-far-Lefts-vile-hate-drove-working-Labour-MP-standing-Tory.html

This from the guy who over the weekend was suggesting essentially forced labour camps for the homeless and those with ASBO's, which seems a heck of a leap from Labour to being a bit fascisty.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 13:12:38
Apparently Arron Banks' Twitter account has been hacked and a file of his DMs sent to Carol Cadwaller (sp?), the journalist who did the initial expose of Leave.EU's links to the Cambridge Analytica scandal and Banks' links to the Russians. Hilariously, Andy Wigmore (a director of Leave.EU and one of the self-styled "Bad Boys of Brexit") is now bleating about it being a violation of GDPR. You know, the EU Data Protection regulations. Couldn't make it up

https://twitter.com/andywigmore/status/1196772024766455819


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 13:18:05
Not just Labour that has a problem with anti-Semitism:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-50468770

Looking forward to the 2-page spread in tomorrow's Mail about this

The BBC's everso impartial political correspondent, Laura Kuntingberg, chose to report this on twitter by talking about the Leicester labour candidate resigning and a picture of his resignation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 13:32:24
Apparently Arron Banks' Twitter account has been hacked and a file of his DMs sent to Carol Cadwaller (sp?), the journalist who did the initial expose of Leave.EU's links to the Cambridge Analytica scandal and Banks' links to the Russians. Hilariously, Andy Wigmore (a director of Leave.EU and one of the self-styled "Bad Boys of Brexit") is now bleating about it being a violation of GDPR. You know, the EU Data Protection regulations. Couldn't make it up

https://twitter.com/andywigmore/status/1196772024766455819
Stuff started leaking already:
1) Priti Patel taking a grand bung from Banks via a Mail journalist
2) Banks boasting to Julia Hartley-Brewer he'd brokered a clandestine pact between Farage and Johnson, around the time Farage stood down his candidates in Tory seats
3) Anti-semitic remarks about Soros (surprise)

#arronbanksleaks if anyone's interested


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 14:07:24
Banks referring to Northeners as 'Northern monkeys'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 14:20:42
Looking forward to tonights leader debate on ITV. I fully expect Corbyn to do well if given chance to actually talk about the issues that matter. We could have a sweepstake on how many times Boris will say "get Brexit done". It's all he trots out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 14:27:27
Banks referring to Northeners as 'Northern monkeys'

Well we do like to walk around with our arses out and steal car aerials!

Hilariously, Andy Wigmore (a director of Leave.EU and one of the self-styled "Bad Boys of Brexit") is now bleating about it being a violation of GDPR.

Wigmore seems to be thick as shit, he is basically the (northern) monkey to Bank's grinder!

Regards, Raab


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chubbs on Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 15:43:19
I don't tend to watch much of the debates/speeches but i managed to catch the CBI event yesterday and watched both Corbyn and BJ speak, and my word, how on earth can anyone take bumbling boris seriously. OK, i know its not as simple as that, but he was terrible. Compared to Corbyn who spoke so clearly and answered questions without (too much) sidestepping.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chubbs on Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 20:22:30
Julie what’s her face needs to shut up and stop interrupting JC and BJ after 10 seconds each time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 21:55:05
Julie what’s her face needs to shut up and stop interrupting JC and BJ after 10 seconds each time.
Indeed. As the old saying goes, the best referees are the ones you don’t really notice.

Tonight told us very little; not that I expected much else but it would have been nice if the debate was allowed to develop.

Moving on, I wonder what delights tomorrow will bring with the great Labour advent calendar  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 00:41:51
Meanwhile at the ITV Debate Studio...

JE: Mr Johnson, do you like potatoes?

BJ: What we need to do is...stop all this dither and delay, so we can focus on getting Brexit done! *Looks pleased as punch with himself*

JE: *muffled audio* I fucking give up.

JC: *adjusts tie*

~~~~~~~

That pretty much sums up what we learnt from that debate. A few of the questions ITV decided to go with were poor. Who the fuck gives a shit what they'd leave each other under the Christmas Tree?!

We're at one of the most important and pivotal moments in the future of our country, which will affect several decades of people. Yet we have some privileged cunts scoffing at some tongue-in-cheek bullshit. Top job.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 09:06:40
As predicted, Johnson just said "get Brexit done" over and over again. Nothing of any substance at all. The Tories Twitter change to 'factcheck' last night was a massive own goal by their habitual idiot James Cleverly. Maybe I was hasty in thinking they have this won already. Their arrogance, dishonesty and stupidity is shining through.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 09:06:49
The tories press twitter account last night changed its name to 'factcheckUK' during last night's debate.

They're trying every dirty trick they can think of.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 09:11:24
Written by Peter Oborne former Tory, former Telegraph....

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/18/boris-johnson-lying-media

The rather harrowing bit is:

A big reason for Johnson’s easy ride is partisanship from the parts of the media determined to get him elected. I have talked to senior BBC executives, and they tell me they personally think it’s wrong to expose lies told by a British prime minister because it undermines trust in British politics. Is that a reason for giving Johnson free rein to make any false claim he wants?

See also https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1196932484702838784


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 09:16:20

they tell me they personally think it’s wrong to expose lies told by a British prime minister because it undermines trust in British politics. /i]


I saw that the other day - bizarre. And dangerous. And fucking enraging. And all sorts of other 'bad' stuff.

These cunts are paid with license payer's money.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 09:31:04
I saw that the other day - bizarre. And dangerous. And fucking enraging. And all sorts of other 'bad' stuff.

These cunts are paid with license payer's money.

See also https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-british-uk-media-news-bias-tories-labour-a9209026.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 09:42:16
Laura Kuntingberg appears to have given up all pretence of impartiality on her twitter account. I wonder if some are concerned about their jobs should the tories not win.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 09:53:55
The tories press twitter account last night changed its name to 'factcheckUK' during last night's debate.
While their leader was openly laughed at as he spoke about the importance of truth and honesty during the debate, his party were deliberately and consciously setting out to deceive. The Tories are now openly fundamentally dishonest


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 09:54:03
Laura Kuntingberg appears to have given up all pretence of impartiality on her twitter account. I wonder if some are concerned about their jobs should the tories not win.

I was thinking about this, have Labour actually said anything about the BBC? On past issues regarding funding the BBC probably have more to fear from another Tory government?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 09:54:59
While their leader was openly laughed at as he spoke about the importance of truth and honesty during the debate, his party were deliberately and consciously setting out to deceive. The Tories are now openly fundamentally dishonest

Apparently people like being lied to....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 09:55:48
I was thinking about this, have Labour actually said anything about the BBC? On past issues regarding funding the BBC probably have more to fear from another Tory government?
The BBC as a whole may do. But individuals within the BBC, and specifically their political news staff, may have their own agendas/fears/incentives


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 09:56:17
Apparently people like being lied to....
tbf, I always prefer it when my missus tells me I'm terrific in bed :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 10:02:00
The tories press twitter account last night changed its name to 'factcheckUK' during last night's debate.

They're trying every dirty trick they can think of.

Godwin's Law be damned, this is a huge fucking deal. If the UK's media remains complicit in allowing this open war on truth to be conducted on the UK electorate, and the voters don't punish it severely, then we've seriously learnt nothing from the lessons of the rise of the Nazis.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 10:23:55
Godwin's Law be damned, this is a huge fucking deal. If the UK's media remains complicit in allowing this open war on truth to be conducted on the UK electorate, and the voters don't punish it severely, then we've seriously learnt nothing from the lessons of the rise of the Nazis.

This morning Twitter have moaned a bit about the Torys actions but done nowt, but then suspended a load of people who changed their account name to CCHQ to take the piss.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 11:05:02
This morning Twitter have moaned a bit about the Torys actions but done nowt, but then suspended a load of people who changed their account name to CCHQ to take the piss.

Twitter and Facebook's action - or inaction - here is likely to be as big a factor as it was in the last US election. This is the real battleground, and by the time the protests are lodged, the news cycle has moved on and the people who were being targeted have swallowed the original deceit, as intended.

When things move this fast, we really need a regulator, or a court, that can act quickly and decisively when bare-faced lies are published with no redress.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 11:31:38
If anyone hasn't seen The Great Hack, you should watch it.

Elections aren't anywhere near a fair contest with modern social media.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 11:35:24

When things move this fast, we really need a regulator, or a court, that can act quickly and decisively when bare-faced lies are published with no redress.

Or perhaps a public funded broadcaster that is impartial??


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 11:55:31
The deception is positively Orwellian, and Raab's defence of it on the Today Programme (and elsewhere, I understand) was horrible to listen to.  We need to get a grip of this.  But how?  Government - and they're likely to get re-elected, let's face it - will have no interest in doing anything.

I really do despair.  Johnson is a known liar, as evidenced by the laughter of the studio audience yesterday.  And yet, in all probability, he is going to be returned as PM by the electorate.  Generally speaking, you get the governments you deserve.  Depressing stuff.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 12:18:07
The deception is positively Orwellian, and Raab's defence of it on the Today Programme (and elsewhere, I understand) was horrible to listen to.  We need to get a grip of this.  But how?  Government - and they're likely to get re-elected, let's face it - will have no interest in doing anything.


https://scramnews.com/dominic-raab-people-dont-give-a-toss-about-social-media-spent-56k-facebook-ads/

I really do despair.  Johnson is a known liar, as evidenced by the laughter of the studio audience yesterday.  And yet, in all probability, he is going to be returned as PM by the electorate.  Generally speaking, you get the governments you deserve.  Depressing stuff.

Its how grooming works.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 17:57:57
Jesus, the Lib Dems have gone mad, they have released a manifesto!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 18:09:47
Jesus, the Lib Dems have gone mad, they have released a manifesto!

Haha! How very dare they?!

Also notice a certain HRH has pretty much made himself available to the authorities. Prepared line of questioning from the Met allegedly opens with;

Met:  Do you prefer Cussons or Carex?

HRH: I'm not into cousins, neither do I care about my ex. I prefer them young.

Met: We're asking you which soap would you prefer for your overnight stay... M'Lud.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 18:33:13
That cunt should be spending some time at the pleasure of his mum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 18:43:39
That cunt should be spending some time at the pleasure of his mum.

Totally agree!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 19:28:45
Any chance one of you Web Development geeks can create a very large button with the words "Absolute Utter Cunt" every time the word Gove is mentioned?

Or just change the word Gove on here tbh.

TIA


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 19:34:11
Oh and apparently (according to a friend of a friend of a friend), some fella on Assbook thinks that the BBC are a left bias media outlet. I mean...we've (I've) all made some bold claims before but I actually threw my tea (mug included) through my TV when I read that.

Unbelievable!!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 20:40:49
That cunt should be spending some time at the pleasure of his mum.
In unrelated news, #Nonce is apparently the no 1 trending thingy in the UK


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 09:17:40
That cunt should be spending some time at the pleasure of his mum.

I understand he is taking a step back, although what from is unclear as no one really knows what his purpose is anyway?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 09:42:55
Rachel Riley chooses to wear a T-shirt branding Corbyn a racist, which she is well within her rights to do, of course.

The image she has chosen was one of Corbyn being arrested for demonstrating against apartheid. She has photoshopped over the anti-apartheid message on the placard with text saying he is racist.

Really, Rachel? Really?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 09:47:32
Turns out even if you are really clever, you can still be fucking thick as mince.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 09:57:52
I am getting a bit pissed off with all the Labour faithful wittering on about the 'fact' that a vote for the Libs is a vote for Johnson, like its the bloody same all over the country!

Round here a vote for Labour is definitely a vote for Johnson as its a straight Tory LD bun fight, yet the candidate and his supporters are spounting out the same old shit!

Interestingly, we have had loads of stuff through the door about the LD's and to date sweet FA from anyone else!

On another vein....

(https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/78585962_3013895225307081_3482195879702560768_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_oc=AQm-DJABz2b6cSS7PLjL_-YnpRPnq5pvcrMgG90wuiM6IO0CVBNsLqSTQBeYnShK2f8&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-1.fna&oh=c5db837dc8d2c0a639cf9fccb8cdf171&oe=5E5040A0)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 10:24:52
Turns out even if you are really clever, you can still be fucking thick as mince.

You ought to see her twitter feed, it's bizarre.

I think I prefer Vorderman now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 10:25:57
Things have got so bad that even Alan Moore is voting... (he also knows the score....)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJ1pOJgWoAciqF9?format=png&name=small)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 10:44:49
You ought to see her twitter feed, it's bizarre.

I think I prefer Vorderman now.

Whilst I don't have a dog in the fight either way, I just don't understand why Corbyns online attack dogs believe attacking a very popular (with the mainstream) game show host as if she is a public enemy is good politics. Its just another example of the fact that Labour seem entirely unable to comprehend that they need votes beyond the faithful to get elected. Don't they understand most Brits aren't political obsessives & just see a likeable attractive woman being attacked & are put off by it?

Corbyn really didn't help by blatantly bullshitting again in the leaders debate about the matter!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 10:49:03
Whilst I don't have a dog in the fight either way, I just don't understand why Corbyns online attack dogs believe attacking a very popular (with the mainstream) game show host as if she is a public enemy is good politics.

I agree, but that does not excuse her own actions.

The t-shirt is in very bad taste to say the least.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 11:23:38
What a slimy obnoxious devious sod he is

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1197196558300844033


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 11:26:50
What a slimy obnoxious devious sod he is

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1197196558300844033

In summary:

Interviewer: *asks (a very reasonable) question*
Gove: Stop attacking me!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 12:35:20
Gove shouldn't be allowed to appear on TV or radio without the theme tune of "The Omen" playing in the background


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 12:40:53
More easily refuted bollocks being spouted

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-johnson-contradicts-himself-over-russian-meddling


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 12:42:54
Labour's manifesto is pretty 'all-in' stuff. Nationalising the big six energy companies, bus services at a council level, free personal care for the elderly and increase in inheritance tax, corporation tax & assorted taxes on the wealthy. Not dying wondering. Would be as significant a shift in the way the country is run as we've seen, you'd think.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 12:52:45
Can you find the inheritance tax details anywhere?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 12:54:13
Just been reading the Labour manifesto usual bollocks as you'd expect in a manifesto most of which would never materialise and don't think I'd ever trust a political parties cost estimates so the cost side is nonsense.

Couple of things that interest me is the 'war powers act' that states the PM would have to go before parliament before an act of conventional warfare. So hypothetically if we were getting attacked or invaded we'd need to get Parliament approval before defending ourselves then?

Also reading the sheer scale of the proposed nationalisation I wonder how legal it would actually be and they end up just spending a term fighting in the courts. I'm not sure I'd trust or back a political parties legal teams based on past track records.
Similarly they keep saying that rich and companies will pay for the majority of the manifesto, again I'd back the rich and large companies to have better legal teams and accountants than a government and find ways to avoid paying any more. So if that happens then what?

Finally the 32 hour week is bollocks, what about places that operate 7 days a week? And the productivity argument is nonsense in industries such as construction where there is a limit to what you can physically achieve in a day. Sounds set up for the old BR days where barely any trains ran on Sunday....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 12:56:13
Can you find the inheritance tax details anywhere?

Hmm, no is the short answer to that, the word inheritance doesn't appear in the manifesto itself (https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Real-Change-Labour-Manifesto-2019.pdf) so wonder if that's been briefed elsewhere.

Edit: this is the best I can find, reversing most recent cuts (when were those?) https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1197475285416992768?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 12:58:41
Yeah got to the same point as you..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 13:10:23
Rachel Riley has shown herself to be a pretty vile individual in recent months. Trolling a teenage girl and spouting utter lies and smears via Twitter. Living proof that beauty is only skin deep. She's an ugly person underneath.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 14:02:19
I see if you google Labour the first thing that pops up at the top of the list is a Tory page, they are throwing money at this!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 14:04:03
Hmm, no is the short answer to that, the word inheritance doesn't appear in the manifesto itself (https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Real-Change-Labour-Manifesto-2019.pdf) so wonder if that's been briefed elsewhere.

Edit: this is the best I can find, reversing most recent cuts (when were those?) https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1197475285416992768?s=20

The inheritance tax grab i guess is to lower the limits at which it starts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 14:30:38
The inheritance tax grab i guess is to lower the limits at which it starts.

Yeah, but the pre-manifesto rumour was only £125K per child tax free. But it looks to me like its hitting the top end (if I understood it properly, probably not).

i.e. scrapping the £150K residence nil rate band you get if you leave it to a family member,  it's extra added to the the £325,000 nil rate band allowance




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 14:37:05
Interestingly the Brexit bit in the Labour manifesto looks like Norway +++, with economic disruption kept to absolute minimum.

This suggests that in the 2nd referendum the big debate would be whether there's much point in being outside the EU but inside its rule book, without a say on those rules?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 14:41:29
Interestingly the Brexit bit in the Labour manifesto looks like Norway +++, with economic disruption kept to absolute minimum.

This suggests that in the 2nd referendum the big debate would be whether there's much point in being outside the EU but inside its rule book, without a say on those rules?

I've never understood the appeal of the Norway option.  Why not stay in on that basis?

And the fact that Norway thinks it's a good idea doesn't make it so.  They are a very peculiar people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 14:44:31
Rachel Riley has shown herself to be a pretty vile individual in recent months. Trolling a teenage girl and spouting utter lies and smears via Twitter. Living proof that beauty is only skin deep. She's an ugly person underneath.

Even more challenging now, then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZswWnbQl_P4


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 15:00:43
blocked on copyright grounds


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 15:15:52
blocked on copyright grounds

Oh, must be blocked in the UK. This one any good? From 3:03 onwards:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q9IRpFGgPY


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 15:19:25
The whole thing's worth watching, Sean Locke's hilarious.

I hope he doesn't turn out to be a far right loon as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 15:22:47
yup that worked.

ffs. tea exit mouth onto keyboard


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 15:27:20
The whole thing's worth watching, Sean Locke's hilarious.

I hope he doesn't turn out to be a far right loon as well.

Crystal Palace fan. Sorry.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 15:49:45
I bet even Diane Abbott's maths are not this bad!

https://twitter.com/DawnHFoster/status/1197499505970679815


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 16:05:47
Crystal Palace fan. Sorry.
Chelsea.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 16:14:27
A pleasant chap rang the door bell and asked if I would like a Labour campaign leaflet today.
The Tories just shoved theirs through the letter box without a by your leave.

It's the little things.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 16:43:42
https://thebrexitparty.com/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 16:57:03
A pleasant chap rang the door bell and asked if I would like a Labour campaign leaflet today.
The Tories just shoved theirs through the letter box without a by your leave.

It's the little things.

You mean you'd have switched your vote it was the other way round, or it was just nice to have your confirmation bias comforted?  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 17:18:01
A short summation of just about everything that is wrong with the UK political system.  Taken from the Guardian's Live news feed.

Billionaires and financiers are among those who have helped the Conservative party raise £5.7m in a single week, according to official figures.

Data published by the Electoral Commission on donations received between 6 and 12 November shows the Tories far outstripped other parties, most of which raised a couple of hundred thousand pounds during the same period.

The top donors to the Conservatives were:
  • John Gore, a theatre producer and recent addition to the Sunday Times rich list, with an estimated net worth of £1.5bn. He donated £1m.
  • WA Capital, the vehicle of the Dunelm Group founder Bill Adderley, worth an estimated £1.4bn. He donated £500,000.
  • Trailfinders Limited, a travel company, donated £500,000.
  • Countywide Developments Ltd, which is owned by the property billionaire Tony Gallagher, donated £500,000.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 17:37:38
A short summation of just about everything that is wrong with the UK political system.  Taken from the Guardian's Live news feed.

Billionaires and financiers are among those who have helped the Conservative party raise £5.7m in a single week, according to official figures.

Data published by the Electoral Commission on donations received between 6 and 12 November shows the Tories far outstripped other parties, most of which raised a couple of hundred thousand pounds during the same period.

The top donors to the Conservatives were:
  • John Gore, a theatre producer and recent addition to the Sunday Times rich list, with an estimated net worth of £1.5bn. He donated £1m.
  • WA Capital, the vehicle of the Dunelm Group founder Bill Adderley, worth an estimated £1.4bn. He donated £500,000.
  • Trailfinders Limited, a travel company, donated £500,000.
  • Countywide Developments Ltd, which is owned by the property billionaire Tony Gallagher, donated £500,000.

Trailfinders is an interesting one, a travel company donating to make overseas travel more difficult?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 18:13:15
Dominic Cummings' CCHQ fake news machine is working up to full speed now, with at least two online deceits just today. After the fake Labour manifesto site launch this morning, they've now doctored an October ITV interview with Jess Phillips to make out it was a response to the new manifesto launch, even replacing the ITV "October 3" timestamp with one showing today's date.

https://www.indy100.com/article/jess-phillips-video-doctored-tories-general-election-good-morning-britian-9212156?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3PcBT07cCCCdqtM0VFPaEgFeRDi_LqyP93K5-SL4JyJkq2sqmW777pQ7w#Echobox=1574348320

This is the Bannon playbook that worked so well for the Trump campaign in 2016, and, just like the Republicans, it depends on Tory spokespeople to abandon all honesty and ethics in order to defend it - yes, I'm looking at you Messrs Raab, Cleverley, Gove. Labour, impartial media and honest commentators need to call out this sinister lurch into the darkest sort of politics before our democracy is irreparably damaged. It really is that serious now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 18:15:02
You mean you'd have switched your vote it was the other way round, or it was just nice to have your confirmation bias comforted?  ;)

I read through the Labour leaflet.
The Conservative one went straight into the pile for recycling.

Ultimately, both ended up in the same place.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 18:19:02
A pleasant chap rang the door bell and asked if I would like a Labour campaign leaflet today.
The Tories just shoved theirs through the letter box without a by your leave.

It's the little things.

Did he offer to wipe your arse as well


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 19:06:41
Did he offer to wipe your arse as well

No, can manage that ok at the moment.
Might come a time when I can't, hopefully I won't make it to that stage.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 19:12:12
No, can manage that ok at the moment.
Might come a time when I can't, hopefully I won't make it to that stage.
If you do, better pray Johnson doesn't get into power


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 19:14:29
Dominic Cummings' CCHQ fake news machine is working up to full speed now, with at least two online deceits just today. After the fake Labour manifesto site launch this morning, they've now doctored an October ITV interview with Jess Phillips to make out it was a response to the new manifesto launch, even replacing the ITV "October 3" timestamp with one showing today's date.

https://www.indy100.com/article/jess-phillips-video-doctored-tories-general-election-good-morning-britian-9212156?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3PcBT07cCCCdqtM0VFPaEgFeRDi_LqyP93K5-SL4JyJkq2sqmW777pQ7w#Echobox=1574348320

This is the Bannon playbook that worked so well for the Trump campaign in 2016, and, just like the Republicans, it depends on Tory spokespeople to abandon all honesty and ethics in order to defend it - yes, I'm looking at you Messrs Raab, Cleverley, Gove. Labour, impartial media and honest commentators need to call out this sinister lurch into the darkest sort of politics before our democracy is irreparably damaged. It really is that serious now.
The likes of Peter Oborne (ex-Telegraph journalist and lifelong Tory) are calling it out. But it's being ignored, most shamefully by our supposedly impartial state broadcaster, the BBC. I think of all the things that have disappointed or worried me over the last few years, the descent of the BBC into government propaganda mouthpiece is the most disappointing. And you're absolutely right about the scale of the threat to democracy. If politicians can lie at will and not get called out on it, there is no way of holding them to account. It's frightening


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, November 21, 2019, 19:28:54
Rachel Riley chooses to wear a T-shirt branding Corbyn a racist, which she is well within her rights to do, of course.

The image she has chosen was one of Corbyn being arrested for demonstrating against apartheid. She has photoshopped over the anti-apartheid message on the placard with text saying he is racist.

Really, Rachel? Really?

She should now adorn the "Birds you would but really shouldn't" hall of fame.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, November 22, 2019, 07:30:05
Trailfinders is an interesting one, a travel company donating to make overseas travel more difficult?

Hopefully the staff were consulted and are on board with the fruits of their labour being donated to a political party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, November 22, 2019, 09:15:47
There was a guy on Question time who was seething with rage at labour for having the temerity to want him to pay more income tax.

It transpired that his annual salary was 80k. And a quick calculation suggests his tax would increase by £250 a year. I can't really understand why he was so angry.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 22, 2019, 09:33:37
She should now adorn the "Birds you would but really shouldn't" hall of fame.

Indeed.

She is rightly getting the stick she deserves for her actions, just a pity that those berating her seem less keen to look closer to home.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 22, 2019, 09:37:51
question time is in Swindon next week


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Richie Wellen-Dowd on Friday, November 22, 2019, 09:39:47
There was a guy on Question time who was seething with rage at labour for having the temerity to want him to pay more income tax.

It transpired that his annual salary was 80k. And a quick calculation suggests his tax would increase by £250 a year. I can't really understand why he was so angry.

He also thought that he wasn't even in the top 50% of earners, let alone the top 5%.

There were a number of things that annoyed me about the exchange, not least how the hell does someone who can't grasp basic facts end up earning that much money!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Friday, November 22, 2019, 09:41:49
Question Time could be in Swindon 5'oclock tomorrow evening !!.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 22, 2019, 09:57:46
He also thought that he wasn't even in the top 50% of earners, let alone the top 5%.

There were a number of things that annoyed me about the exchange, not least how the hell does someone who can't grasp basic facts end up earning that much money!

'All doctors make over 80k'

The starting salary is around 26k.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, November 22, 2019, 10:07:24
'All doctors make over 80k'

The starting salary is around 26k.

Then he said all lawyers make over 80k and the Labour MP said, when I was a lawyer my salary was 40k, his mum shouted out 'liar'. As if she would fucking know what his salary was!! Stupid whelk.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 22, 2019, 10:25:57
the average salary for solicitors is around 42k, with 52k at the higher end: https://www.totaljobs.com/salary-checker/average-solicitor-salary


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 22, 2019, 10:49:17
Anything over about £25,500 would put you in the top 50%.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:01:03
More of a thought than a genuine policy, but wonder if we need to try out some sort of regionalism in taxes to reflect the cost of living in different areas? I earn well above the national average, but I live in central London where the purchasing power of that just about extends to renting a one bedroom flat that I couldn't buy in my wildest dreams (and not just because of the avocados).

Maybe that's just going to inflate the London bubble further and the better way around it is a genuine programme of regional investment to try and make other places a bit closer to London economically?

Dunno, it's tricky. I don't really think I 'deserve' to pay less tax or anything like that but it also doesn't feel fair to equate earning X amount in London with the same amount anywhere with a more normal housing market.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:01:05
Unfortunately, there will be too many people agreeing with that guy and branding labour liars without bothering to check themselves. Something that he tories and the organised mass smears against Crobyn/Labour count on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:23:48
Are the Tories planning to release a manifesto or just trust the faithful to blindly vote for them?

I ask as postal ballots go out this weekend. on in theory by Wednesday next week a quarter of all adults will have cast their votes in the election, its almost like the Tories conclude that the manifesto is not needed, s'pose it worked for Farage Ltd?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:26:39
Are the Tories planning to release a manifesto or just trust the faithful to blindly vote for them?

https://www.thetorymanifesto.com/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:34:05
https://www.thetorymanifesto.com/

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 22, 2019, 12:16:13
Much as with Trump there is always something to discover in the history.....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-bunch-black-kids-racist-column-guardian-a9213356.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, November 22, 2019, 12:16:33
The Tory-lite brexit party manifesto offering free broadband for all homes and public transport

Am sure the right wingers will find the same faults with that idea as labours equivalent


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 22, 2019, 12:44:37
The Tory-lite brexit party manifesto

Its a contract, not a manifesto. Silly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Friday, November 22, 2019, 12:57:29
Farage wants a new law that says if 5m people want a referendum, then they can have one.

Presumably he agrees then with the 6m+ that signed a petition calling for a referendum on the Tory Brexit options vs Remaining in the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, November 22, 2019, 13:36:35
https://www.thetorymanifesto.com/

Superb.

This forum needs a Like button.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 22, 2019, 15:01:27
Einstein had been identified.... https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/bbc-question-time-man-who-20935155


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, November 22, 2019, 17:10:30
This is ominous for Labour (and everyone else).  This constituency is 45th on the Tories' target list.  If this goes as the poll says, it's game over.

https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1197487112515473409


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, November 22, 2019, 17:37:07
This is ominous for Labour (and everyone else).  This constituency is 45th on the Tories' target list.  If this goes as the poll says, it's game over.

https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1197487112515473409

The country is fucked


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 22, 2019, 17:43:48
This is ominous for Labour (and everyone else).  This constituency is 45th on the Tories' target list.  If this goes as the poll says, it's game over.

https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1197487112515473409
Maybe. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Labour lose heavily in some of their "heartland" seats that voted Leave. But I also wouldn't be surprised to see the Tories lose out to the Liberals in some of their hinterland that voted Remain which may well counterbalance the gains they make in former Labour seats, leaving us with another hung parliament. We could well see the start of a substantial realignment of the political landscape.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 22, 2019, 18:59:12
A little bit of me dies whenever I look at political comments on social media.

"Where's the money come from? Thin air"

Uhm perhaps, maybe, taxes?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 22, 2019, 19:06:04
Maybe. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Labour lose heavily in some of their "heartland" seats that voted Leave. But I also wouldn't be surprised to see the Tories lose out to the Liberals in some of their hinterland that voted Remain which may well counterbalance the gains they make in former Labour seats, leaving us with another hung parliament. We could well see the start of a substantial realignment of the political landscape.

The quoted link doesn't work for me, but its going to be an interesting (and potentially horrific) election.

Much has been made of Workington man as the key to this election, I know this is going to bite me on the arse, but I just cannot see them voting for the Tories up there with the whole history being based upon heavy industry which died under Thatcher, however, I can see Farage Ltd doing OK up there so who knows.

Here which is apparently a big Tory target we have had shed loads from the LD's (Farron incumbant!) but sweet FA from the Tories or Brexit.  Balanced against this Labour are making a big deal of the vote LD get Johnson, where its actually vote LAbour get Johnson!

Its good to see that Johnson is under threat (first PM to lose his seat), could IDS/Raab provide a Portillo moment?

Funny times ahead....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 22, 2019, 19:10:23
One of the anti-Corbyn/Labour media's greatest achievements in this campaign is to convince people that Labour's Brexit policy is somehow confusing.

It fucking isn't. It is very, very, very easy to understand. I can see why some people may not agree with it but it--is--not--confusing. Not even a little bit.

In convincing people that they somehow lost the ability to understand something that is (very, very) simple, it means that we don't get past that hurdle and get on to actually discussing the policy itself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Friday, November 22, 2019, 19:31:20
One of the anti-Corbyn/Labour media's greatest achievements in this campaign is to convince people that Labour's Brexit policy is somehow confusing.

It fucking isn't. It is very, very, very easy to understand. I can see why some people may not agree with it but it--is--not--confusing. Not even a little bit.

In convincing people that they somehow lost the ability to understand something that is (very, very) simple, it means that we don't get past that hurdle and get on to actually discussing the policy itself.

The labour position is utterly ridiculous.

They want to get a new deal but will not say whether they will campaign for it or to remain in a 2nd ref.

Any new deal they get would be awful, as the EU would have no incentive whatsoever to give them anything when they could campaign to remain.

Corbyns position is a farce- all the other leaders are at least clear in their brexit view.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 22, 2019, 19:33:12
One of the anti-Corbyn/Labour media's greatest achievements in this campaign is to convince people that Labour's Brexit policy is somehow confusing.

It fucking isn't. It is very, very, very easy to understand. I can see why some people may not agree with it but it--is--not--confusing. Not even a little bit.

In convincing people that they somehow lost the ability to understand something that is (very, very) simple, it means that we don't get past that hurdle and get on to actually discussing the policy itself.
Now, however after 3 odd years of x contradicting y at every opportunity labour have made it incredibly easy for this narrative to become fact....

Sent from my SM-J330FN


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Friday, November 22, 2019, 19:40:37
A little bit of me dies whenever I look at political comments on social media.

"Where's the money come from? Thin air"

Uhm perhaps, maybe, taxes?
Surely it is a fair question though? Large organisations have previously said they have contingency plans in place if Labour get in which basically means ways of avoiding paying the new taxes. So if they don’t get the additional income from the taxes where will the money come from?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, November 22, 2019, 19:54:25
I don’t understand.

Corbyn has come out and said he will be neutral regarding Brexit. How can he? If he wins the GE he said he will negotiate a new deal with the EU which will then have to be voted on in the Commons.

Will he not vote for his own deal?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, November 22, 2019, 19:55:36
Where does the money come from for the Torys to reduce corporation tax? Where does the money come from for the Lib Dems to increase the income tax threshold?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 22, 2019, 20:00:28
Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey
I don’t understand.

Corbyn has come out and said he will be neutral regarding Brexit. How can he? If he wins the GE he said he will negotiate a new deal with the EU which will then have to be voted on in the Commons.

Will he not vote for his own deal?


it will go to the people. I assume he means he won't campaign one way or the other.

also, going through the commons would be a formality


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, November 22, 2019, 20:03:09
Why would it be a formality? A minority Labour government would have the exact same problems as the Tories in passing Brexit legislation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 22, 2019, 20:04:48
Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey
Why would it be a formality? A minority Labour government would have the exact same problems as the Tories in passing Brexit legislation.

I'm assuming a majority government, or a minority propped up by a remain party.

it may have the same problem, granted


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 22, 2019, 20:05:30
Let's not forget that Corbyn has a personal incentive to get a good deal. He's pro leave, he always has been.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 22, 2019, 20:07:59
Surely it is a fair question though? Large organisations have previously said they have contingency plans in place if Labour get in which basically means ways of avoiding paying the new taxes. So if they don’t get the additional income from the taxes where will the money come from?

It would be a fair question, except I'm talking about social media fodder here. Many genuinely seem to think the plan is to magic the money out of thin air. Which is not the plan.

The real plan may or may not be flawed, but the magic money tree is not their plan as many would have you believe.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 08:41:42
I don’t understand.

Corbyn has come out and said he will be neutral regarding Brexit. How can he? If he wins the GE he said he will negotiate a new deal with the EU which will then have to be voted on in the Commons.

Will he not vote for his own deal?
I didn't watch it so sorry if I get it wrong, but my understanding from what I have read is that he said he would be negotiating with the EU for a deal (that he would obviously vote for in a Commons vote), and then put it to the people for a confirmatory vote with an option to remain as well. He said he would be neutral in the referendum campaigning. I don't see any problem with that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 08:52:25
The labour position is utterly ridiculous.

They want to get a new deal but will not say whether they will campaign for it or to remain in a 2nd ref.

Any new deal they get would be awful, as the EU would have no incentive whatsoever to give them anything when they could campaign to remain.

Corbyns position is a farce- all the other leaders are at least clear in their brexit view.

Your argument is utterly nonsense. The EU will have more incentive to deal with Labour, who will try to negotiate reasonably, unlike the Tories who went in with ridiculous demands under the arrogant impression that "they need us more than we need them" and completely fucked it up. If Labour then campaign to remain (and we end up remaining) they will do so with the backing of the EU, who want us to remain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 08:52:48
It just smacks of a lack of leadership - or ducking the issue altogether.

Come on, the major political issue of a lifetime and he hasn’t got an opinion?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 08:57:35
He didn't say he doesn't have an opinion, just that would not express it in the referendum campaigning, ie the people would be left to decide for themselves.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 09:04:08
He didn't say he doesn't have an opinion, just that would not express it in the referendum campaigning, ie the people would be left to decide for themselves.

They already did.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 09:12:14
They already did.

What did they vote for? To leave the European Union yes? How? A no deal Brexit? Cut all ties? Throw out anyone from Europe that lives here? Tell me


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 09:12:32
Surely it is a fair question though? Large organisations have previously said they have contingency plans in place if Labour get in which basically means ways of avoiding paying the new taxes. So if they don’t get the additional income from the taxes where will the money come from?
Seem to remember Cornflake saying that he  would heavily increase taxes on Google & Amazon,,   that's laughable,  they have paid virtually nothing for several years  so how will they change that ?.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 09:14:17
What did they vote for? To leave the European Union yes? How? A no deal Brexit? Cut all ties? Throw out anyone from Europe that lives here? Tell me
Exactly,    the vote was to leave Brexit, there was no small print about HOW we leave Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 09:24:30
What did they vote for? To leave the European Union yes? How? A no deal Brexit? Cut all ties? Throw out anyone from Europe that lives here? Tell me
Forget it.....you'll end up going around in circles.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 09:27:56
Exactly,    the vote was to leave Brexit, there was no small print about HOW we leave Brexit.
.......which is what a 2nd referendum would settle. And, of course, with remain as an option as well we would find out if "the will of the people" is still the will of the people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 09:30:34
Exactly,    the vote was to leave Brexit, there was no small print about HOW we leave Brexit.

What? We're even leaving Brexit now?  :eek:

Well if it's "the will of the people"TM CCHQ


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 09:47:20
What? We're even leaving Brexit now?
If only.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 10:18:03
.......which is what a 2nd referendum would settle. And, of course, with remain as an option as well we would find out if "the will of the people" is still the will of the people.

Which it wont of course, given the vitriol thus far. How is the 'bringing the country together' going by the way with those nasty billionaries and feckless high earners



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 11:09:23
Exactly,    the vote was to leave Brexit, there was no small print about HOW we leave Brexit.

So all those nurses and doctors need to go back to their own countries?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 11:10:22
What about workers rights? Should we discard them?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 11:11:29
Sticking with the NHS lets be specific what about filters for dialysis machines that we currently get from Germany?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 11:14:21
Fuck!

It’s almost like there might be disagreements about what sort of Brexit!!!!!!

Good job dave from hartlepool, Edna from carmathen and the politically aware inhabitants of swindon, each and every one of them, was asked about these intricacies and had the superior in depth knowledge on making a wise choice.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 11:19:10
It is fucking unbelievable that the cunts that shout get it forward in the arkells get a say in free trade deals etc

The rest of the world is pissing themselves and leaving the uk in the 20th century.
How well did our “friends and allies” recently support us over the chagos islands??

Petty racist small minded Britain has fallen so far behind in the world pecking order and you all barely notice.
Looking in from the outside it’s embarrassing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 12:59:56
So where were you in 2016, hidden away among the lacklustre remain campaign no doubt.

Oh and Ranting about it and  taring every leaver with the same accusations is really going to work.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 15:11:59
I voted remain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 18:53:52
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50530163

Again.

I know a thing or two about copywriting - specifically persuasive sales copywriting. I recognise framing when I see it.

The headline says that Corbyn is 'defending' his stance - which instantly suggests that he has done something wrong. (Why defend it otherwise). People also tend not to read beyond headlines.

BBC editors will know exactly what they are doing. They are at the top of their field.

Another 'mistake' that just happens to favour the tories? It is entirely possible that I am reading too much into this specific article, but it just seems to happen FAR too often.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 19:00:17
I just had a better look on their website hoping to find some balance and I couldn't find anything about Johnson 'defending' his previous racist comments. Or anything else from any other party leaders.

Why is there nothing on Boris' poor performance?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 19:44:09
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50530163

Again.

I know a thing or two about copywriting - specifically persuasive sales copywriting. I recognise framing when I see it.

The headline says that Corbyn is 'defending' his stance - which instantly suggests that he has done something wrong. (Why defend it otherwise). People also tend not to read beyond headlines.

BBC editors will know exactly what they are doing. They are at the top of their field.

Another 'mistake' that just happens to favour the tories? It is entirely possible that I am reading too much into this specific article, but it just seems to happen FAR too often.
In the Times today, there is a piece about the BBC dropping stories on politicians' links to Russia, including Johnson, Mandelson, Arron Banks, and Yaxley-Lennon (aka Tommy Robinson).

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/bbc-whistleblower-bosses-suppressing-russia-stories-lwzn2pm9x

What are the BBC afraid of?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 19:54:42
In the Times today, there is a piece about the BBC dropping stories on politicians' links to Russia, including Johnson, Mandelson, Arron Banks, and Yaxley-Lennon (aka Tommy Robinson).

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/bbc-whistleblower-bosses-suppressing-russia-stories-lwzn2pm9x

What are the BBC afraid of?

The BBC heirarchy know that the Tory paymasters, would very much like to close them down.  They know Labour wouldn't consider such a thing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 20:27:08
Help, there are Bogie men everywhere


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 21:22:23
Help, there are Bogie men everywhere

Nope.

Not everywhere, but in some places. A lot of people can recognise it, it's those that cannot that's the problem...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, November 23, 2019, 21:50:51
Tories polling at 47%.

Guardian: Tories @ 47% (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/23/tories-renewed-poll-boost-brexit-party-candidates-pull-out-opinium-observer)

Almost packing my bags now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, November 24, 2019, 01:37:26
The BBC editing out people laughing at Johnson.

Another 'mistake'?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, November 24, 2019, 08:23:25
Help, there are Bogie men everywhere
President Putin thanks you for your support and your vote, tovarisch


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 25, 2019, 10:02:06
I have to confess that I have only had a brief look at the back of envelope Tory Manifesto (they have learnt from Mays mistakes and barely said anything) but one thing jumped out?

We are leaving with no deal at the end of December next year, that's basically a given under this programme so at that stage the infamous £350m a week comes back into play, so where does it state in the manifesto upon what this new cash will be spent, one would expect the Tories to be making a massive deal about this?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 25, 2019, 10:42:21
I have to confess that I have only had a brief look at the back of envelope Tory Manifesto (they have learnt from Mays mistakes and barely said anything) but one thing jumped out?

We are leaving with no deal at the end of December next year, that's basically a given under this programme so at that stage the infamous £350m a week comes back into play, so where does it state in the manifesto upon what this new cash will be spent, one would expect the Tories to be making a massive deal about this?

Most is being earmarked on potholes.... £2 bn 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, November 25, 2019, 10:43:19
Could buy Doyle for us.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 25, 2019, 10:55:44
You know its not going well when Piers Morgan is laughing at the Tories.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/nicky-morgan-laughed-at-susanna-reid-slams-50-000-more-nurses-manifesto-deceit-1-6392360


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 25, 2019, 11:02:03
Looks like the confidence in the financial quality of the Tory manifesto is somewhat misguided?

Full Fact chief executive Will Moy said the Conservative Party could "do more to meet the standards we expect" after investigating its pledges on paving the way for 50,000 new nurses and limiting day-to-day spending increases to only £3 billion, despite promising a litany of public services investment.

Moy said the Tories had not been upfront about the full cost of their initiatives in the 59-page document, titled Get Brexit done, unleash Britain's potential.

In the costings list provided with the Tory manifesto, unveiled in Telford in the West Midlands on Sunday, it stated that the price of training 50,000 extra nurses and paying their maintenance grant would be £879 million in 2023/24.

But Full Fact said training that number of nurses, funding their £24,000 salaries and stumping up National Insurance contributions would cost the NHS closer to £2.8 billion.

Labour has already cast doubt over the headline figure, suggesting that the 50,000 number was "deceitful".

According to the party, the pledge included 19,000 nurses the Tories hope to retrain and another 12,000 from overseas, meaning only 19,000 positions would be filled by new trainees.

Full Fact also remarked that it was "simplistic" of the PM to use the the slogan "get Brexit done", a phrase that appears 22 times in the manifesto including on the cover, when a deal with the European Union could take "years to negotiate".

"The Brexit process will not be completed by January," said the independent organisation.

Another area the Tories were pulled up on was on the pledge of £3 billion of extra day-to-day spending by the final years of the next parliament.

The sum looks significantly smaller than those by rival parties.

But, despite Chancellor Sajid Javid promising the "most transparent costings that have ever been published in British electoral history", Full Fact said the Tories had not explained how every pledge in the manifesto would be funded.

"While the Conservatives plan to increase annual current spending by £3 billion compared to what's already been announced, the Conservatives plan to spend a lot more than £3 billion extra per year than we spend today," said Full Fact.

"For example, the Conservative manifesto spending list omits its headline pledges on school funding, the NHS, and (creating 20,000 more) police officers."

Moy said voters deserved information that was "accurate and honest" before making their minds up on December 12.

"Candidates and parties are asking voters for their trust for the next five years, and like the other main parties, the Conservatives can do more to meet the standards we expect," said the Full Fact boss.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, November 25, 2019, 11:06:25
You know its not going well when Piers Morgan is laughing at the Tories.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/nicky-morgan-laughed-at-susanna-reid-slams-50-000-more-nurses-manifesto-deceit-1-6392360
Nicky Morgan as the new Diane Abbott  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, November 25, 2019, 11:11:14
Looks like the confidence in the financial quality of the Tory manifesto is somewhat misguided?

Full Fact chief executive Will Moy said the Conservative Party could "do more to meet the standards we expect" after investigating its pledges on paving the way for 50,000 new nurses and limiting day-to-day spending increases to only £3 billion, despite promising a litany of public services investment.

Moy said the Tories had not been upfront about the full cost of their initiatives in the 59-page document, titled Get Brexit done, unleash Britain's potential.

In the costings list provided with the Tory manifesto, unveiled in Telford in the West Midlands on Sunday, it stated that the price of training 50,000 extra nurses and paying their maintenance grant would be £879 million in 2023/24.

But Full Fact said training that number of nurses, funding their £24,000 salaries and stumping up National Insurance contributions would cost the NHS closer to £2.8 billion.

Labour has already cast doubt over the headline figure, suggesting that the 50,000 number was "deceitful".

According to the party, the pledge included 19,000 nurses the Tories hope to retrain and another 12,000 from overseas, meaning only 19,000 positions would be filled by new trainees.

Full Fact also remarked that it was "simplistic" of the PM to use the the slogan "get Brexit done", a phrase that appears 22 times in the manifesto including on the cover, when a deal with the European Union could take "years to negotiate".

"The Brexit process will not be completed by January," said the independent organisation.

Another area the Tories were pulled up on was on the pledge of £3 billion of extra day-to-day spending by the final years of the next parliament.

The sum looks significantly smaller than those by rival parties.

But, despite Chancellor Sajid Javid promising the "most transparent costings that have ever been published in British electoral history", Full Fact said the Tories had not explained how every pledge in the manifesto would be funded.

"While the Conservatives plan to increase annual current spending by £3 billion compared to what's already been announced, the Conservatives plan to spend a lot more than £3 billion extra per year than we spend today," said Full Fact.

"For example, the Conservative manifesto spending list omits its headline pledges on school funding, the NHS, and (creating 20,000 more) police officers."

Moy said voters deserved information that was "accurate and honest" before making their minds up on December 12.

"Candidates and parties are asking voters for their trust for the next five years, and like the other main parties, the Conservatives can do more to meet the standards we expect," said the Full Fact boss.

And yet, here we are, fromt he 'impartial' BBC.

(https://i.imgur.com/zrOmZrV.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 25, 2019, 11:58:42
Looks like the confidence in the financial quality of the Tory manifesto is somewhat misguided?

Full Fact chief executive Will Moy said the Conservative Party could "do more to meet the standards we expect" after investigating its pledges on paving the way for 50,000 new nurses and limiting day-to-day spending increases to only £3 billion, despite promising a litany of public services investment.

Moy said the Tories had not been upfront about the full cost of their initiatives in the 59-page document, titled Get Brexit done, unleash Britain's potential.

In the costings list provided with the Tory manifesto, unveiled in Telford in the West Midlands on Sunday, it stated that the price of training 50,000 extra nurses and paying their maintenance grant would be £879 million in 2023/24.

But Full Fact said training that number of nurses, funding their £24,000 salaries and stumping up National Insurance contributions would cost the NHS closer to £2.8 billion.

Labour has already cast doubt over the headline figure, suggesting that the 50,000 number was "deceitful".

According to the party, the pledge included 19,000 nurses the Tories hope to retrain and another 12,000 from overseas, meaning only 19,000 positions would be filled by new trainees.

Full Fact also remarked that it was "simplistic" of the PM to use the the slogan "get Brexit done", a phrase that appears 22 times in the manifesto including on the cover, when a deal with the European Union could take "years to negotiate".

"The Brexit process will not be completed by January," said the independent organisation.

Another area the Tories were pulled up on was on the pledge of £3 billion of extra day-to-day spending by the final years of the next parliament.

The sum looks significantly smaller than those by rival parties.

But, despite Chancellor Sajid Javid promising the "most transparent costings that have ever been published in British electoral history", Full Fact said the Tories had not explained how every pledge in the manifesto would be funded.

"While the Conservatives plan to increase annual current spending by £3 billion compared to what's already been announced, the Conservatives plan to spend a lot more than £3 billion extra per year than we spend today," said Full Fact.

"For example, the Conservative manifesto spending list omits its headline pledges on school funding, the NHS, and (creating 20,000 more) police officers."

Moy said voters deserved information that was "accurate and honest" before making their minds up on December 12.

"Candidates and parties are asking voters for their trust for the next five years, and like the other main parties, the Conservatives can do more to meet the standards we expect," said the Full Fact boss.

TBF, I don't think Tory voters actually believe anything in the Tory manifesto, beyond the Brexit line. 

They think Johnson will get us out of the EU, probably with no deal, or at least a deal aceptable to Fartage and the ERG, and that might get immigration down a bit and perhaps up the rate of deportations. Further, it should enable some sort of deal to be struck with Trump, that will aid our society to become more American and less European.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 25, 2019, 13:32:40
TBF, I don't think Tory voters actually believe anything in the Tory manifesto, beyond the Brexit line. 


Which is somewhat ironic in that the Brexit line is a complete fabrication.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 25, 2019, 13:43:24
Which is somewhat ironic in that the Brexit line is a complete fabrication.

It's true insofar as the WA can get signed off, and most probably think that's it.  Done.  What they don't realise is the years of protracted negotiations to come


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, November 25, 2019, 14:04:17
It's true insofar as the WA can get signed off, and most probably think that's it.  Done.  What they don't realise is the years of protracted negotiations to come

The election aftermath could be brutal for the Tories (assuming they win it).  'Here's your Brexit, folks.  This is what it really looks like.  And yes, it's a bit shit.'

I can't imagine that Workington Man will continue to be a Tory fanboy for long when he realises he's been sold a dud.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, November 25, 2019, 14:22:22
The election aftermath could be brutal for the Tories (assuming they win it).  'Here's your Brexit, folks.  This is what it really looks like.  And yes, it's a bit shit.'

I can't imagine that Workington Man will continue to be a Tory fanboy for long when he realises he's been sold a dud.

Of course, but the real danger with this lies in another lurch to the right. Johnson has picked off Fartage, by offering him a sinecure, and expelling one nation Tories from the party, so positioning the Tories on old UKIP territory.

The Brexit meldown, will move them further over into some very unpleasant terrain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 25, 2019, 14:29:26
Of course, but the real danger with this lies in another lurch to the right. Johnson has picked off Fartage, by offering him a sinecure, and expelling one nation Tories from the party, so positioning the Tories on old UKIP territory.

The Brexit meldown, will move them further over into some very unpleasant terrain.
Been saying this for a while - this election is as much about the reinvention of the Conservative and Unionist Party, unpleasant as it was, into a far nastier English Nationalist Party with the idea that the pendulum will not reset. You ain't seen nothing yet folks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, November 25, 2019, 14:55:04
Nicky Morgan as the new Diane Abbott  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

The big difference was that Abbott got confused with figures in her 7th interview of the day, when ill, that were not lies.
The #Torymaths farce is just blatantly misleading people.

I'm still waiting for the BBC to put a picture of Boris in the background with a Russian hat on like they did to Corbyn when the Russian spy smears were featured. Especially when there is some meat on the bones to this story.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, November 25, 2019, 15:15:23
Abbott is a disaster zone though


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 25, 2019, 15:45:00
The big difference was that Abbott got confused with figures in her 7th interview of the day, when ill, that were not lies. is black, which seems to make her fair game for many.


Corrected for you.  :no: :headhurts:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 25, 2019, 15:45:31
They really are not very good at this lying lark are they.....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-latest-tory-fake-swing-voter-boris-johnson-crick-ashfield-lee-anderson-a9216986.html#Echobox=1574691553


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 25, 2019, 16:35:22
They really are not very good at this lying lark are they.....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-latest-tory-fake-swing-voter-boris-johnson-crick-ashfield-lee-anderson-a9216986.html#Echobox=1574691553
You'd think they would be, what with all the practice they've had. They're also not great at screening out candidates with known far-right sympathies:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50546353

Although tbf in that instance they haven't had any practice because they just don't bother


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 25, 2019, 16:50:53
You'd think they would be, what with all the practice they've had. They're also not great at screening out candidates with known far-right sympathies:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50546353

Although tbf in that instance they haven't had any practice because they just don't bother

Our local candidate seems like a decent enough chap to be fair....

(https://www.national-preservation.com/attachments/upload_2019-11-25_16-21-37-jpeg.48012/)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, November 25, 2019, 17:33:50
Been saying this for a while - this election is as much about the reinvention of the Conservative and Unionist Party, unpleasant as it was, into a far nastier English Nationalist Party with the idea that the pendulum will not reset. You ain't seen nothing yet folks.

Fintan O'Toole puts it very well in this article:

Guardian: 'A Precious Union?' (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/19/brexiters-theresa-may-northern-ireland)

'Brexit has always had a large dose of phoney populism – it is an elite project for extreme globalisation wrapped up as a popular revolt against globalisation. But it also has an equally large dose of phoney unionism – it is an English national rebellion wrapped in the union flag.'

The sooner the Conservative & Unionist Party drops the '& Unionist Party' from their name, the better.  Every day, they are working more effectively towards the cause of dissolving the union than the SNP & Plaid Cymru combined.

Brexit is about English exceptionalism and English isolationism.  The Little Englander barbs of Remainers are entirely justified.  It's going to end in tears, one day, when England realises it cannot stand alone in the world.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, November 25, 2019, 17:41:51
Maybe with the name Fintan O’Toole May be a little anti England.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Monday, November 25, 2019, 17:50:41
Maybe with the name Fintan O’Toole May be a little anti England.

I don't think you need an Irish name to be anti-England in its current guise.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 25, 2019, 18:07:47
Maybe with the name Fintan O’Toole May be a little anti England.
Yeah, cos all Irish people are anti-English  ::). Have a word.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 25, 2019, 18:12:22
Fintan O'Toole puts it very well in this article:

Guardian: 'A Precious Union?' (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/19/brexiters-theresa-may-northern-ireland)

'Brexit has always had a large dose of phoney populism – it is an elite project for extreme globalisation wrapped up as a popular revolt against globalisation. But it also has an equally large dose of phoney unionism – it is an English national rebellion wrapped in the union flag.'

The sooner the Conservative & Unionist Party drops the '& Unionist Party' from their name, the better.  Every day, they are working more effectively towards the cause of dissolving the union than the SNP & Plaid Cymru combined.

Brexit is about English exceptionalism and English isolationism.  The Little Englander barbs of Remainers are entirely justified.  It's going to end in tears, one day, when England realises it cannot stand alone in the world.
My point was about more than that though. I think the Tory Party is being deliberately and explicitly refashioned from being a mainstream party of the right (sometimes centre-right, but usually mainstream right) into a hard right nationalist and populist party, in the image of similar European parties of the hard right, such as the League in Italy, Orban's lot in Hungary and Land and Justice in Poland. Kind of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 10:34:20
My point was about more than that though. I think the Tory Party is being deliberately and explicitly refashioned from being a mainstream party of the right (sometimes centre-right, but usually mainstream right) into a hard right nationalist and populist party, in the image of similar European parties of the hard right, such as the League in Italy, Orban's lot in Hungary and Land and Justice in Poland. Kind of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party

Yet most Tory voters seem pretty unperturbed by this?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 11:00:35
The BBC et al are cranking up their attacks on Corbyn on alleged anti-semitism; rolling out a head Rabbi (who just happens to be friends with Boris). It also just so happens to take place on the same day that labour launches their 'race and faith' manifesto. Surely that must just be a coincidence, right? Ah well, at least soon we can expect extensive coverage from the BBC of 'Islamophobia and anti-semitism' in the Tory party to add some balance...

Meanwhile, 163 economists have put out a public statement in support of Labour's spending plans - not a peep.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 11:05:34
The BBC et al are cranking up their attacks on Corbyn on alleged anti-semitism; rolling out a head Rabbi (who just happens to be friends with Boris). It also just so happens to take place on the same day that labour launches their 'race and faith' manifesto. Surely that must just be a coincidence, right? Ah well, at least soon we can expect extensive coverage from the BBC of 'Islamophobia and anti-semitism' in the Tory party to add some balance...
tbf, it's a pretty astonishing intervention in an election campaign and so definitely newsworthy. And Radio 4's news programmes, not sure about the rest of the BBC, have certainly given Baroness Warsi extensive airtime when she has spoken out about Tory Islamophobia. I do think there have been plenty of instances of imbalanced reporting in this campaign, not sure this is one of them


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 11:16:49
Yeah, cos all Irish people are anti-English  ::). Have a word.

Audrey has lived there Paul, have you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 11:18:26
tbf, it's a pretty astonishing intervention in an election campaign and so definitely newsworthy. And Radio 4's news programmes, not sure about the rest of the BBC, have certainly given Baroness Warsi extensive airtime when she has spoken out about Tory Islamophobia. I do think there have been plenty of instances of imbalanced reporting in this campaign, not sure this is one of them

I (and many others) can only go by the BBC's website.

On their election section, 19 out of 39 articles covered the Rabbi's comments (I may have miscounted one or two either way).
Of those, only 1 (one) was in opposition to the claim - that came from a former Labour MP, so easily dismissed. There are numerous Jews organisations that speak out against the claims but they barely seem to get a mention - let alone extensive coverage.
There is NOTHING on similar issues in the Tory party - NOTHING.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 11:23:07
The whole idea that Labour is now a party of anti semitism is utterly ridiculous to anyone who actually has the ability to think a bit. Problem is many don't have that ability and are easily manipulated.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 11:26:02
tbf, it's a pretty astonishing intervention in an election campaign and so definitely newsworthy. And Radio 4's news programmes, not sure about the rest of the BBC, have certainly given Baroness Warsi extensive airtime when she has spoken out about Tory Islamophobia. I do think there have been plenty of instances of imbalanced reporting in this campaign, not sure this is one of them

There is some glorious stuff from the Corbyn faithful on social media attacking him, I note that the Archbishop of Canterbury has come out raising concerns now so no doubt the paranoia will stretch to Christians now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 11:30:03
The whole idea that Labour is now a party of anti semitism is utterly ridiculous to anyone who actually has the ability to think a bit. Problem is many don't have that ability and are easily manipulated.

And why on Earth do the same problems in the Tory party not get the same level of coverage? If anything, they are worse.

One twitter user has been told by a Tory councillor that she 'has it coming' where racist attacks are concerned because of her political views - not a peep.

I'd have no complaints if it was ALL covered equally. That would just them be doing their job. Instead, they are selective about what they do cover. Then there's the editorial 'mistakes' that they keep on making.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 11:32:52
The whole idea that Labour is now a party of anti semitism is utterly ridiculous to anyone who actually has the ability to think a bit. Problem is many don't have that ability and are easily manipulated.

Agreed, however the Party leadership need to get a lot of the faithful to wind their bloody necks in a bit as its very easy to find evidence all over social media, today being a depressing example with just about every anti-Semitic trope being easily found.

Labour also need to stop lying by keeping stating that all cases have been investigated when actually there are a load of outstanding cases.

Finally it isn't helped by the fact that for whatever reason Corbyn himself seems to have a massive blind spot in sorting it out, and arguing that he is not anti-Semitic  based upon the fact that 'Jeremy has done more for anti racist causes over the years than any other politician' just makes it look bloody worse as he has completely failed to sort this problem in his own party, which can easily thus be spun as suggesting he is against racism apart from when it affects the Jewish community.

Polling suggests that in the big scheme of things the electorate are not taking much notice of this, but bloody hell make it harder for the media to report it in a negative manner.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 11:37:03


Finally it isn't helped by the fact that for whatever reason Corbyn himself seems to have a massive blind spot in sorting it out,


I think that's bollocks. Paper talk. Smears and propoganda. I don't buy it.

He has done a lot to combat antisemitism for as long as he has been a PM and is launching a campaign today to combat it (and other racism).



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 11:37:09
Agreed, however the Party leadership need to get a lot of the faithful to wind their bloody necks in a bit as its very easy to find evidence all over social media, today being a depressing example with just about every anti-Semitic trope being easily found.

Labour also need to stop lying by keeping stating that all cases have been investigated when actually there are a load of outstanding cases.

Finally it isn't helped by the fact that for whatever reason Corbyn himself seems to have a massive blind spot in sorting it out, and arguing that he is not anti-Semitic  based upon the fact that 'Jeremy has done more for anti racist causes over the years than any other politician' just makes it look bloody worse as he has completely failed to sort this problem in his own party, which can easily thus be spun as suggesting he is against racism apart from when it affects the Jewish community.

Polling suggests that in the big scheme of things the electorate are not taking much notice of this, but bloody hell make it harder for the media to report it in a negative manner.

Agree with all of this.

I completely agree that there's an imbalance between coverage of this and the Tories failings on similar issues. But that doesn't invalidate the points being raised, and quite frankly we should hold our own parties to a higher standard on such issues.

Also I'd be very wary of claiming a monopoly on thinking and immunity to manipulation... it's not a good look and one glance at Twitter suggests that every party has plenty of extremely aggressive sheep willing to follow their standard bearers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 11:40:00
https://www.thejc.com/news/tory-election-candidate-for-leeds-north-east-claims-british-jews-return-from-israel-as-brainwashed-extremists-1.493217

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/19/tory-candidate-suspended-alleged-anti-semitic-islamophobic-homophobic/

Yeah.....but Corbyn!!!!11111one


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 11:42:02
Agree with all of this.

I completely agree that there's an imbalance between coverage of this and the Tories failings on similar issues. But that doesn't invalidate the points being raised, and quite frankly we should hold our own parties to a higher standard on such issues.
Totally agree. "Only about as racist as the Tories" isn't a good look for Labour. Or any party (except for Farage Ltd, natch)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 11:44:19
https://www.thejc.com/news/tory-election-candidate-for-leeds-north-east-claims-british-jews-return-from-israel-as-brainwashed-extremists-1.493217

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/19/tory-candidate-suspended-alleged-anti-semitic-islamophobic-homophobic/

Yeah.....but Corbyn!!!!11111one
That misses the point though. Sure, there's loads of racist Tories, wow, tell me something I don't know. But
a ) that doesn't demonstrate that the Tory Party as a whole is institutionally racist, which is what Labour is being accused of
b ) Even if it did, I'm fairly sure that "Only as racist as the Tories" isn't a slogan Labour want to be running under


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 11:49:52
So basically the argument seems to be the Labour Party is not anti-Semitic because its members/supporters don't think it is, yet at the same time its perfectly acceptable to attack and discredit the Rabbi for being bias because he thinks it is and he is Boris Johnson's mate.

I get it now, and they wonder why they still cannot attract the floating electorate....



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 11:51:35
The BBC et al are cranking up their attacks on Corbyn on alleged anti-semitism; rolling out a head Rabbi (who just happens to be friends with Boris). It also just so happens to take place on the same day that labour launches their 'race and faith' manifesto. Surely that must just be a coincidence, right? Ah well, at least soon we can expect extensive coverage from the BBC of 'Islamophobia and anti-semitism' in the Tory party to add some balance...

Meanwhile, 163 economists have put out a public statement in support of Labour's spending plans - not a peep.

I was talking about this with the wife earlier watching breakfast news. Did BJ not state in the Tory leader debate that he was going to put something in place to flush out Islamophobia in the Tory Party but implementing something or other. Did that ever happen?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 11:54:43
Agreed, however the Party leadership need to get a lot of the faithful to wind their bloody necks in a bit as its very easy to find evidence all over social media, today being a depressing example with just about every anti-Semitic trope being easily found.

Labour also need to stop lying by keeping stating that all cases have been investigated when actually there are a load of outstanding cases.

Finally it isn't helped by the fact that for whatever reason Corbyn himself seems to have a massive blind spot in sorting it out, and arguing that he is not anti-Semitic  based upon the fact that 'Jeremy has done more for anti racist causes over the years than any other politician' just makes it look bloody worse as he has completely failed to sort this problem in his own party, which can easily thus be spun as suggesting he is against racism apart from when it affects the Jewish community.

Polling suggests that in the big scheme of things the electorate are not taking much notice of this, but bloody hell make it harder for the media to report it in a negative manner.



Is it actually a problem within the party though? I don't think it is. It's a miniscule minority at the most. I'd wager it would be far more prevalent within the Tory party and it's supporters.
Where are and who are these anti semitic people within the Labour party?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 12:04:01
I was talking about this with the wife earlier watching breakfast news. Did BJ not state in the Tory leader debate that he was going to put something in place to flush out Islamophobia in the Tory Party but implementing something or other. Did that ever happen?
No. He promised it, then watered it down to a general inquiry into prejudice in the party, then kicked it into the long grass. Probably permanently. A bit like the report on Russian interference in British politics. Because he's likely to be named as the major offender in both.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 12:04:21
We are TOLD it's a problem, but with no real evidence asides from a relative handful of individuals making claims.

An investigation was made that showed that there is no more anti-semitism in the labour party than there is in the general population. But, still, the unsubstantiated claims somehow seem to take precedence.

Corbyn is then attacked for allegedly not dealing with a 'problem' that has not even been demonstrated to exist, despite him openly taking actions to tackle anti-semitism.

Not so long ago I was in the 'He's not an anti-semite but he's not helped himself' camp. I now believe the latter part to be bollocks.

In the meantime, here we are talking about problems in the Labour party and not in the Conservative party. The media have done a reet proper job in steering the discussion exactly where they want it to go.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 12:04:52
Is it actually a problem within the party though? I don't think it is. It's a miniscule minority at the most. I'd wager it would be far more prevalent within the Tory party and it's supporters.
Where are and who are these anti semitic people within the Labour party?

The is exactly the issue I have with this. To me the way its reported makes it seem that the actual party itself has a huge problem with jewish people, when in reality its probably a small handful. Right enough that's a small handful bigger than it should be, but I think its overstated.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 12:07:51
That misses the point though. Sure, there's loads of racist Tories, wow, tell me something I don't know. But
a ) that doesn't demonstrate that the Tory Party as a whole is institutionally racist, which is what Labour is being accused of
b ) Even if it did, I'm fairly sure that "Only as racist as the Tories" isn't a slogan Labour want to be running under

No it doesn't, i'm just pointing out the hypocrisy that the Tories are slamming Labour for anti-semitism when it's just as much of an issue with their party, but it hardly gets a mention.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 12:13:58
We are TOLD it's a problem, but with no real evidence asides from a relative handful of individuals making claims.

An investigation was made that showed that there is no more anti-semitism in the labour party than there is in the general population. But, still, the unsubstantiated claims somehow seem to take precedence.

Corbyn is then attacked for allegedly not dealing with a 'problem' that has not even been demonstrated to exist, despite him openly taking actions to tackle anti-semitism.

Not so long ago I was in the 'He's not an anti-semite but he's not helped himself' camp. I now believe the latter part to be bollocks.

In the meantime, here we are talking about problems in the Labour party and not in the Conservative party. The media have done a reet proper job in steering the discussion exactly where they want it to go.

Completely agree with this..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 12:20:11
Politics is all to do with opinion and leaning (unfortunately). Pity they didn't concentrate more on the good of the country rather than the playground squabbling. Seems to have rubbed off on here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 12:20:18
We are TOLD it's a problem, but with no real evidence asides from a relative handful of individuals making claims.

An investigation was made that showed that there is no more anti-semitism in the labour party than there is in the general population. But, still, the unsubstantiated claims somehow seem to take precedence.

Corbyn is then attacked for allegedly not dealing with a 'problem' that has not even been demonstrated to exist, despite him openly taking actions to tackle anti-semitism.

Not so long ago I was in the 'He's not an anti-semite but he's not helped himself' camp. I now believe the latter part to be bollocks.

In the meantime, here we are talking about problems in the Labour party and not in the Conservative party. The media have done a reet proper job in steering the discussion exactly where they want it to go.

Excellent post.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 12:27:18
We are TOLD it's a problem, but with no real evidence asides from a relative handful of individuals making claims.

An investigation was made that showed that there is no more anti-semitism in the labour party than there is in the general population. But, still, the unsubstantiated claims somehow seem to take precedence.

I think relative handful is pushing it a little three senior members and two MP's have been directly censured (Naz Shah, Ken Livingstone and Chris Williamson (and less said about the handling of him by the party leadership the better)) whilst there have been over 800 cases reported for investigation, there has been enough to persuade the Equality and Human Rights Commission to start an investigation which I cannot image they do just for the hell of it, although their silence on the Tories and Islamophobia is rather baffling.

Ultimately if even just a handful of Jewish people are feeling anxious about the actions of the Party it should not just be swept under the carpet. As noted above just because the Tories have major problems does not make it any better for Labour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 12:35:45
I think relative handful is pushing it a little three senior members and two MP's have been directly censured (Naz Shah, Ken Livingstone and Chris Williamson (and less said about the handling of him by the party leadership the better))


I don't agree.

Those 5 will make up just over 2% of the seats that labour hold. It's also a very small sample size to work with.

whilst there have been over 800 cases reported for investigation,


Of a membership of 400,000 people. Again, about 2%. And how many of those complaints are even genuine?

Ultimately if even just a handful of Jewish people are feeling anxious about the actions of the Party it should not just be swept under the carpet.


Swept under the carpet? Genuine instances of antisemitism have been dealt with. People have been thrown out of the party. Corbyn makes it very open that he is doing such. How is it being swept under the carpet?

In addition, labour are literally launching a policy today that will help to deal with exactly this kind of thing. Not only in the party but also in the general popualtion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 12:49:14
Muslim council now grieving it back at Johnson


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 12:51:12
Meanwhile Dominic Raab's flunkies prevented the family of Harry Dunn (the lad killed by the wife of a US spy who's case the Foreign Office Raab heads completely mishandled) from attending the hustings in his constituency for fear they would criticise him. Classy

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-50553055


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 12:57:18
Muslim council now grieving it back at Johnson

Obviously nobody has put it onto their actual news websites, just discussed on twitter instead...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 13:13:52
Obviously nobody has put it onto their actual news websites, just discussed on twitter instead...

2 mentions of it on the Beeb's politics section, as opposed to the (now more than) 19 on anti-semitism.

I had to go back a couple of pages to find them because they have already been pushed down by articles about - guess what.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 13:14:04
In addition, labour are literally launching a policy today that will help to deal with exactly this kind of thing. Not only in the party but also in the general popualtion.

A policy which seems to suggest that the independent body that is presently investigating them for anti-Semitism is not truly independent enough... You really couldn't make it up.

I don't actually have a dog in the fight as a vote for Labour here is a vote for Johnson, but I still just don't buy the argument that the number of Jewish organisations that have come out and raised and concerns and the fact that the EHRC have deemed it necessary to investigate can be laid down at 'just a few bad eggs', some manner of anti-corbyn conspiracy or down to the media.

But then again I am white non-religious so I have thankfully never been a victim of any such prejudice so probably not really qualified to comment.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 13:15:59
can be laid down at 'just a few bad eggs',


2%


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 13:18:16
I was talking about this with the wife earlier watching breakfast news. Did BJ not state in the Tory leader debate that he was going to put something in place to flush out Islamophobia in the Tory Party but implementing something or other. Did that ever happen?

It got lost in the whole mess when he was appointed, and the Saj who had made a (laudable for a change) massive fuss about it in the leadership campaign went suddenly quiet on the matter when he was offered a plum cabinet post!

Alternatively, being mischievous and as conspiracy is all the rage, Johnson is still waiting for Shami Chakrabarti to find a slot in her diary to find time to do the Inquiry?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 13:57:11
(https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/78860220_10156504819832007_3962177639174635520_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ohc=vig00K1uvGgAQlVCNzPWrm6Xkiuovhz0h2PpTQa0W8kwj6hHppmDlgT8w&_nc_ht=scontent-cdg2-1.xx&oh=e468c89235c58562a1ae3a9d826ad55a&oe=5E78A45D)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 14:19:32
Obviously nobody has put it onto their actual news websites, just discussed on twitter instead...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKS5gVoXsAMzHWv?format=jpg&name=large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 14:21:13
(https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/78860220_10156504819832007_3962177639174635520_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ohc=vig00K1uvGgAQlVCNzPWrm6Xkiuovhz0h2PpTQa0W8kwj6hHppmDlgT8w&_nc_ht=scontent-cdg2-1.xx&oh=e468c89235c58562a1ae3a9d826ad55a&oe=5E78A45D)

So despite the paranoid way its being reported by many he isn't Johnson's 'friend' and just gave the usual plaudits about someone being a friend and champion of the Jewish community?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 14:34:12
It's all about Israel. Not about anti semitism really. It's how it started and how it's developed. People have just ran with it as it's got the attention they wanted from it.  It's because Israel supporters know that a Labour government will be more sympathetic to the plight of Palestinian's. The chief rabbi is a prime example of this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 14:57:18
It's all about Israel. Not about anti semitism really. It's how it started and how it's developed. People have just ran with it as it's got the attention they wanted from it.  It's because Israel supporters know that a Labour government will be more sympathetic to the plight of Palestinian's. The chief rabbi is a prime example of this.

Partisan politicking, in other words. Spiritual leader my arse. He should be shamed out of his job.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 15:34:41
https://www.thejc.com/news/tory-election-candidate-for-leeds-north-east-claims-british-jews-return-from-israel-as-brainwashed-extremists-1.493217

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/19/tory-candidate-suspended-alleged-anti-semitic-islamophobic-homophobic/

Yeah.....but Corbyn!!!!11111one

I thought one of the main gripes was that there doesn't seem to be much of an investigation or that Labour seem to take an age to resolve the complaints and take whatever action might be needed.

The bloke above was at least suspended as a start
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 15:40:39
I thought one of the main gripes was that there doesn't seem to be much of an investigation or that Labour seem to take an age to resolve the complaints and take whatever action might be needed.
 

Or so we are told.

I've seen the claims, but not a shred of evidence supporting those claims.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 15:45:41
he's doing his job , I suspect the Pope would do the same, if in the same position.
 How important is the jewish vote, 300k voters spread around mostly London and Hertfordshire and Greater Manchester. Tend to vote conservative but difficult to nail it down, regionally. Probably won't make a lot of difference, blue will stay blue and maybe win a few red constituencies


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 15:52:49
Or so we are told.

I've seen the claims, but not a shred of evidence supporting those claims.



So you're convinced that senior members of the Jewish community as well as some long standing Labour MP's have no cause for complaint what so ever

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 16:03:43
So you're convinced that senior members of the Jewish community as well as some long standing Labour MP's have no cause for complaint what so ever

How on earth did you make the leap to that from my comment?

1) I was responding to the claim that Labour doesn't act quick enough - not on the 'problem' overall.
2) Not being convinced of something does not mean one is convinced the other way.

I suspect there is some antisemitism in the Labour party. It is inevitable for any organisation of that size. If you follow the discussion you will see that some are disagreeing with the media making it out to be a bigger issue than it is. That does not equate to 'no cause for complaint whatsoever'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 16:34:30
Lots of people conflate anti-Semite with anti-Zionist / anti-Likud / anti-Israel. Many of them do so out of ignorance.

The Chief Rabbi, not so much.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 16:58:44
How on earth did you make the leap to that from my comment?

1) I was responding to the claim that Labour doesn't act quick enough - not on the 'problem' overall.
2) Not being convinced of something does not mean one is convinced the other way.

I suspect there is some antisemitism in the Labour party. It is inevitable for any organisation of that size. If you follow the discussion you will see that some are disagreeing with the media making it out to be a bigger issue than it is. That does not equate to 'no cause for complaint whatsoever'.

"I suspect there is some antisemitism in the Labour party" - If that's the case however small it's a problem and it's seems to have been for those involved for over three years.

"It is inevitable for any organisation of that size" - shouldn't be and those directly affected by it certainly don't accept that it is.

Even if the BBC are over egging the issue as you suggest, Labour need to hurry up and sort it.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 17:19:06

"I suspect there is some antisemitism in the Labour party" - If that's the case however small it's a problem and it's seems to have been for those involved for over three years.

I didn't say otherwise


"It is inevitable for any organisation of that size" - shouldn't be and those directly affected by it certainly don't accept that it is.


I didn't say otherwise.

You seem to be insistent on trying to strawman me and/or read into things that are not there. I think I'll just leave you to it.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 18:01:08

"I suspect there is some antisemitism in the Labour party" - If that's the case however small it's a problem and it's seems to have been for those involved for over three years.

"It is inevitable for any organisation of that size" - shouldn't be and those directly affected by it certainly don't accept that it is.

Even if the BBC are over egging the issue as you suggest, Labour need to hurry up and sort it.
I agree with you. I take it you're happy for the same comments to apply to the Tories and Islamophobia and that you're every bit as appalled at Johnson's frequent racist comments and his kicking the promised enquiry into the long grass?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 20:54:20
This one's not a complaint about bias or anything. It's from a Daily Mail editor so it's to be expected.

I actually find it quite amusing.

(https://i.imgur.com/X54ErG9.jpg)

He is trying to tell people that this is text messages from a labour supporter/activist.

But the messages are all in blue which means that whoever took the screenshot was the sender. That same person supposedly sent it to a daily mail editor...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 21:08:01
I agree with you. I take it you're happy for the same comments to apply to the Tories and Islamophobia and that you're every bit as appalled at Johnson's frequent racist comments and his kicking the promised enquiry into the long grass?

Yes indeed the same should apply to all sides. All sides should act swiftly and it shouldn't be allowed to fester which going by the things said today, people think it still is.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 06:47:41
2%

0.1%
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/10/labour-party-antisemitism-claims-jeremy-corbyn (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/10/labour-party-antisemitism-claims-jeremy-corbyn)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 08:46:31
The whole Labour anti-semitism debate is a classic example of most people believing what they want to.

There is clear evidence of a problem.  The Guardian cites 635 complaints and 8 expulsions in H1 2019.  And there has been criticism of the speed at which expelled or suspended members have been re-admitted. 2 Jewish Labour MPs have quit citing anti-semitism and a number of others have quit claiming it as a factor.  3 peers as well.

On the other hand there are other senior Jewish Labour figures who say that the evidence has been exaggerated.  These seem high absolute numbers but are small numbers relative to the size of the Labour movement.  No-one would cite Anders Behring as standalone proof that Norway is institutionally violent.  And a lot of the ‘crimes’ seem to be people ‘liking’ substantial articles that have isolated lines of possible anti-semitism buried within them.  Search hard enough and anyone active on social media will have ended up inadvertently appearing to support or condone something they actually don't.

As for Corbyn himself, no-one has ever produced any examples (that I am aware of) that show him to be either racist in general or anti-semitic in particular.  And it is reasonable to assume that a lot of effort has been expended trying to dig up any such dirt.  He is very loyal to his friends and fellow travellers which is both commendable and sometimes foolish.  He strikes me as someone who tends not to act hastily but also can sometimes prevaricate when decisive action is needed.

Bottom line….. take exactly the same level of evidence, replace Labour/Corbyn/Racism with Tory/Johnson/Racism and an awful lot of people who are downplaying the evidence and excusing the Labour party would be slaughtering the Tories and an equal number of people who are slaughtering Labour would be downplaying the evidence and excusing the Tories.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 08:54:54
There's an element of our fanbase who hold totally wrong headed, blundering, idiotic, nasty (to me) views.  But Im not going to stop supporting STFC because of it.  For the same reason, if there is 0.1% or even 4% that have shitty views in the labour party membership then Im not going to stop supporting it.  

Ultimately to me they are the party who care more about those of us who live off work not those who live off wealth.  So fuck the muck racking right wing media.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 09:03:02
*Edit

Meh! Not doing this again today --- too much work to do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 09:43:24

Ultimately to me they are the party who care more about those of us who live off work not those who live off wealth.  So fuck the muck racking right wing media.

 

The whole thing is pretty meh to be honest, those who read said media outlets are never likely to vote Labour whatever is said so its really just preaching to the converted (or perverted).

This was quite an interesting read on welfare within the party promises, https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/the-shifting-shape-of-social-security/ TL:DR there is a summary of the key facts at the bottom.

The slightly peculiar thing is the £12bn that Labour seem to be setting aside for the pensions thing, which seems to be a thinly veiled reached for Daily Mail/Express readers, which is not going to do a great deal for the poorer sectors of society.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 10:15:06
Could be an interesting day after all, Corbyn has revealled he has 450 pages of uncensored US-UK trade talks over opening the NHS to  private healthcare, together with reduced food standards and corporate courts (replacing ECJ with American judges).

Popcorn at the ready....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 10:28:02
Could be an interesting day after all, Corbyn has revealled he has 450 pages of uncensored US-UK trade talks over opening the NHS to  private healthcare, together with reduced food standards and corporate courts (replacing ECJ with American judges).

Popcorn at the ready....

Apparently... there is to be no mention of climate change in any deal.  I suppose no surprise then that Johnson has refused to appear on the C4 Leaders debate on the subject.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 10:46:20
Corbyn drops a bombshell on the tories using actual evidence rather than opinion and unsubstantiated claims.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 10:59:32
Corbyn drops a bombshell on the tories using actual evidence rather than opinion and unsubstantiated claims.

Unfortunately, aligning more closely with Trump and the US is what many people want, so although this backs up claims about what we can expect on Brexit, the real question is how far can it go?   


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 11:12:07
Who wants it? Has there been a poll on that? Define ‘many people’


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 11:16:48
And interestingly, but perhaps not surprisingly, it's not become the main headline story on the BBC news page yet where the death of Gary Rhodes has been replaced by the SNP manifesto launch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 11:26:39
And repeat, Yawn.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 11:27:10
Saw a phrase from an article today that struck a chord: "It is dishonest to depict Brexit as a chore when it is closer to a revolution."

I think that's right. So this is how the British do revolutions. Break away from a global trading power to go it alone, tank sterling and the economy, split the country and the 300-year union, throw away 20 years of détente in Ireland, throw yourselves to the mercy of US negotiators, Russian oligarchs and hedge-fund managers.

And most voters will just shrug and agree "let's get Brexit done". Fuck my life, England, you've walked right into this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 11:34:40
Rather a lot of commentators on social media, including some journalists and editors, seem to be more aggrieved that 'secret' documents have been leaked than the content of the leak itself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 11:37:21
‘Sky's economics editor Ed Conway said the documents do not, at first reading, "contain any smoking guns".’

Damp squid? (sic)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 11:46:25
Who wants it? Has there been a poll on that? Define ‘many people’

It's axiomatic, you can't leave the globe's second largest trading bloc and not replace it with something of similar size.... and for Brexiteers that's not China but the US.

It's why back in 2016 Cameron wheeled out Obama to pronounce UK would be back of the queue, whereas Trump is all for it as long as the UK leaves with no deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 11:55:21
I think you’re crediting the (slight) majority of the British voting public too much.

They only saw leaving the EU - period.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 12:00:36
‘Sky's economics editor Ed Conway said the documents do not, at first reading, "contain any smoking guns".’

Damp squid? (sic)

Alternatively Norman Smith at the BBC suggests there is a lot more of note here than just the NHS, citing American demands to have changes in employment law, they also want changes to food labelling. They would also prefer a no-deal outcome.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 12:32:54
Alternatively Norman Smith at the BBC suggests there is a lot more of note here than just the NHS, citing American demands to have changes in employment law, they also want changes to food labelling.

Taking back control!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 13:41:25
‘Sky's economics editor Ed Conway said the documents do not, at first reading, "contain any smoking guns".’

Damp squid? (sic)
*Squib. And no, it isn't. This is the future - a devastated NHS, existing pretty much in name only, wide open to US pharma and other business interests, as will all of UK life be, employment law, banking regulations, the whole nine yards. The Americans know we have to sigh a trade deal with them post Brexit and we are desperate. They hold all the cards and will royally bend our negotiators over a table. After 2020, only the wealthy will be able to afford to fall ill


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 13:43:37
*Squib.

He said "(sic)", Paul, you pendant (sic)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 13:50:11
I’ve a spare room and a small holiday let if anybody wants to escape.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 13:57:03
He said "(sic)", Paul, you pendant (sic)
I'm sic that I missed that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 14:23:00
Oddly enough, these unredacted documents have been available on reddit since October.

Some journalists are using this as though it somehow devalues the content of the documents - the same journalists that should have been publishing the documents themselves.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 17:43:47
Increasingly looking as though BJ won't be doing an interview with Andrew Neil.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 17:46:27
Oddly enough, these unredacted documents have been available on reddit since October.

Some journalists are using this as though it somehow devalues the content of the documents - the same journalists that should have been publishing the documents themselves.

I'm more worried about Laura K, she has been spinning so violently today I gear she may be sick.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 17:50:40
I'm more worried about Laura K, she has been spinning so violently today I gear she may be sick.

The NHS issue clearly rattled her.

Apparently, Corbyn was told that an interview with Neil and Boris had been arranged, which turned out to be false. (Another 'mistake').


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 18:07:54
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-tory-candidate-suspended-islamophobia-racism-flora-scarabello-a9220406.html

So just to clarify, is this worse than saying that 'Islam is the problem' and that Islamophobia is the 'natural response' to Islam?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bedford Red on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 22:25:58
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1199813298222510081

Tories projected to get a 68 seat majority, picking up Labour seats in the Midlands and North of England.

Polls can be wrong, as we all know, but this has got a depressing feel about it, with just over 2 weeks to go.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 22:40:41
Too depressing for words.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 10:15:26
Too depressing for words.

Nah... this is depressing

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03595-0


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 10:56:39
Nah... this is depressing

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03595-0
The one exacerbates the other


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 11:02:22
The IFS have done an analysis of both Labour and Tories' spending plans and said neither are credible - the Tories' plans are an effective continuation of austerity (despite their flashy pledges, there would be real terms cut in spending on public services of 14% compared to 2010-11, in itself not a high point for public services), Labour's plans represent the greatest expansion of government spending in peacetime. So a choice between more austerity and a devastated NHS or massive increase in govt spending and debt. Hurrah!

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/nov/28/ifs-manifesto-verdict-neither-tories-nor-labour-have-credible-spending-plan


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 11:11:23
The idea that any party can make lavish spending promises when the true impact of Brexit remains so thoroughly in the balance is simply for the birds.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 11:15:10
It's OK. It's all OK.

Boris likes scones. He's just like you and me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 11:23:12
The idea that any party can make lavish spending promises when the true impact of Brexit remains so thoroughly in the balance is simply for the birds.

Except the Lib Dems?  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 11:29:16
The IFS have done an analysis of both Labour and Tories' spending plans and said neither are credible - the Tories' plans are an effective continuation of austerity (despite their flashy pledges, there would be real terms cut in spending on public services of 14% compared to 2010-11, in itself not a high point for public services), Labour's plans represent the greatest expansion of government spending in peacetime. So a choice between more austerity and a devastated NHS or massive increase in govt spending and debt. Hurrah!

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/nov/28/ifs-manifesto-verdict-neither-tories-nor-labour-have-credible-spending-plan

I see they have also picked up that the main beneficiaries under Labour would be the female elderly Daily Mail readers, which seems downright peculiar as a demographic they are hardly likely to ever vote Labour?

The idea that any party can make lavish spending promises when the true impact of Brexit remains so thoroughly in the balance is simply for the birds.

The Saj keep suggesting that no one neds to see an economic assessment of potential effects...



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 11:29:52
The idea that any party can make lavish spending promises when the true impact of Brexit remains so thoroughly in the balance is simply for the birds.
True, but what about the much hyped "Brexit Dividend", and the famous "£350m a week to the NHS"?

:hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 11:39:03
Except the Lib Dems?  :)

They are at least coherent. Though they might have to contend with a level of protest that bears a greater threat of disorder than a well-turned pun on a placard.

True, but what about the much hyped "Brexit Dividend", and the famous "£350m a week to the NHS"?

:hmmm:

I'll leave you to make your own judgment on that...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 11:43:39
The IFS have done an analysis of both Labour and Tories' spending plans and said neither are credible - the Tories' plans are an effective continuation of austerity (despite their flashy pledges, there would be real terms cut in spending on public services of 14% compared to 2010-11, in itself not a high point for public services), Labour's plans represent the greatest expansion of government spending in peacetime. So a choice between more austerity and a devastated NHS or massive increase in govt spending and debt. Hurrah!

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/nov/28/ifs-manifesto-verdict-neither-tories-nor-labour-have-credible-spending-plan

Which is fine. These people are just doing their job and they know what they are talking about. They have criticised both parties, making it fair and equal and people deserve to know these things. No complaints here.

But why do the BBC not let people know about this: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/general-election-labour-economy-spending-corbyn-boris-johnson-a9218041.html?fbclid=IwAR0rzdjmE-FQ9MGdMstOprmMblb-a36_z7ptweNWPiYRhEbzFjfnlGEN63o


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 12:01:02
The joys of electioneering

https://twitter.com/HinduMonkey/status/1198924351795605508

The look on the face of the nurse who has been lumbered with sitting next to him is a treat, could she try and get any further away whilst remaining on the seat!

https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1199655368105836545


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 12:29:32
Don't you just love the politician's sleeves-rolled-up look?  There's no reason what ever for him to do that as he's sitting in a hospital drinking tea.  But conveys to the faithful that he's been toiling away for them.  Man of action.  Cufflinks in his pocket.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 13:16:50
Increasingly looking as though BJ won't be doing an interview with Andrew Neil.

If the chairman of the Spectator (Andrew Neil) really can’t get an interview with the ex-editor of the Spectator (Boris Johnson), he could always ask the current deputy editor to have a word with her husband (Dominic Cummings)?

Who's says the right have a strangle hold over the media...

(With thanks to James O'Brien on Twitter!)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 13:32:54
It would not surprise me at all if it is deliberate. The BBC are appearing to be more sinister by the day.

He might still end up doing it, but I won't be holding my breath.

It infuriates me more than Boris himself or any of the other politicians; I've never been all that politically motivated. I have always held the media in contempt for their lies and propaganda, though. That's one of my main bugbears regardless of whether or not there's an election on. It's to be expected from the likes of the Daily Mail et al but that it's the BBC is another matter entirely.

I think kids should be educated to recognise it, I think the world would be a better place if more people can spot the bullshit. (not only in politics). That's not going to happen under the current lot though.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 13:44:48
The most chilling aspect to this election is that (assuming the Tories do win) it will demonstrate that you can hide from the mainstream media, obfuscate, deliberately mislead and openly tell lies - and it won't harm you at the ballot box.  I'm not sure how you retreat from that once it becomes recognised & established.  Johnson would be eviscerated by Andrew Neil for the lies he has told on the campaign trail and before.  Solution: don't meet Andrew Neil. 

It's not about truth or the facts any more.  It's about which tribe you belong to.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 13:46:38
Don't you just love the politician's sleeves-rolled-up look?  There's no reason what ever for him to do that as he's sitting in a hospital drinking tea.  But conveys to the faithful that he's been toiling away for them.  Man of action.  Cufflinks in his pocket.

In fairness to BoJo, if it's a clinical area (it is) you have to have bare forearms as part of infection control.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 13:51:38
Indeed, as everyone else has in the video.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 14:11:56
A rare concession that I will make to Johnson, then.  I stand corrected.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 14:44:46
The most chilling aspect to this election is that (assuming the Tories do win) it will demonstrate that you can hide from the mainstream media, obfuscate, deliberately mislead and openly tell lies - and it won't harm you at the ballot box.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/28/revealed-tory-candidates-issued-with-attack-manuals-on-how-to-smear-rivals


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 15:05:51
 So the European Parliament has followed ours and has declared a climate emergency.... interesting that some Tory MEP's but not all voted in favour, Fartage's mob in line with their denying overlord Trump, voted against.

 Johnson, of course, will not come onto TV and debate this with other leaders.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 15:13:44
They are dropping like flies north of the border...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50585278

In a way this sums up the issues facing Labour, its laudable that they have taken swift action to get rid, but it still leaves it open to query how the hell she got nominated in the first place!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 15:26:01
They are dropping like flies north of the border...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50585278

In a way this sums up the issues facing Labour, its laudable that they have taken swift action to get rid, but it still leaves it open to query how the hell she got nominated in the first place!

From the Guardian:

Quote
A party source said the comments were made on an older Facebook account she no longer used and had not been picked up during candidate screening.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/28/scottish-labour-drops-falkirk-candidate-safia-ali-antisemitism-claims

I honestly don't know either way if labour can be blamed for that. Certainly something for them to take into account from now on.

Either way, you can be sure the focus will be on her having been in labour rather than the fact labour acted quickly.

Quote
He said the case was going through the fast-track disciplinary processes introduced by Jeremy Corbyn, whose handling of antisemitism within the party has again come under intense scrutiny.

The same Corbyn that is doing nothing to address the 'problem'?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 16:10:47
I note that Question Time is being filmed in Swindon this eve...with the shows well known ‘loony left’ audience I did wonder whether any TEF’rs considered applying  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 16:14:33
I note that Question Time is being filmed in Swindon this eve...with the shows well known ‘loony left’ audience I did wonder whether any TEF’rs considered applying  :hmmm:

Shit ITK
Shit shit Reg
Shit troll

Is there anything you are not shit at?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 16:32:24
Getting to you?  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 16:36:53
Getting to you?  :)
:D

Bless him.

It was an honest remark!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 16:41:47
I note that Question Time is being filmed in Swindon this eve...with the shows well known ‘loony left’ audience I did wonder whether any TEF’rs considered applying  :hmmm:

It's often been noted that you'd be doing well to find many of a left wing persuasion on the TEF.

It's being held in a faith school.... new forms of these are not a good idea.  We've just had the case of parents having to fight in the courts to get altrnative provision for their kids

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/nov/20/oxfordshire-parents-win-right-to-prayer-free-school-assembly

and also this week the injunction to prevent protests by mainly but not exclusively muslim parents against the teaching of liberal views on gender, sexual orientation etc. Protests that is right outside the school gate.... they're free to carry on, on FB and Twitter etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 16:43:44
Getting to you?  :)

Nope.

The level of shitness is actually quite impressive. He's either naturally gifted or he's worked hard at it. Either way, credit where credit's due.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 16:50:26
They are dropping like flies north of the border...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50585278

In a way this sums up the issues facing Labour, its laudable that they have taken swift action to get rid, but it still leaves it open to query how the hell she got nominated in the first place!
tbf, all 3 main parties have had issues with this and it's a function of a snap election that they don't have time to do the full vetting they'd normally do


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 17:03:15
From the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/28/scottish-labour-drops-falkirk-candidate-safia-ali-antisemitism-claims

I honestly don't know either way if labour can be blamed for that. Certainly something for them to take into account from now on.

Either way, you can be sure the focus will be on her having been in labour rather than the fact labour acted quickly.

The same Corbyn that is doing nothing to address the 'problem'?


Has he managed to catch the bolting horse then or has it disappeared over the horizon yet.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 18:43:47
Channel 4 replaces the absentees' Boris and Farage with ice sculptors where they would have been sitting.

Boris threatens to 'review' their licence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 19:07:18
Channel 4 replaces the absentees' Boris and Farage with ice sculptors where they would have been sitting.

Boris threatens to 'review' their licence.
Doesn't take much for the authoritarian to peek through the affable veneer does it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 19:08:53
Channel 4 replaces the absentees' Boris and Farage with ice sculptors where they would have been sitting.

Boris threatens to 'review' their licence.

Childish all round


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 19:16:19
Childish all round
Might be childish on Channel 4's part but "cowardly" would be a better word for Johnson, he knows he doesn't stand up to scrutiny. On any topic. And he has an uncomfortable history of flirting with climate change denial, and taking funding from denial lobby groups. And tbf, the ice sculpture will do pretty much what Johnson would have done anyway - melt under the lights.

Farage is an out and out climate change denier so precious little point him attending anyway, as he might have to confront some actual science and facts and stuff.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sir windon on Thursday, November 28, 2019, 23:51:58
Swindon audience came across quite well on ‘Question Time’. Were not going to be taken as fools.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 29, 2019, 08:07:32
we are, polls suggest a Tory victory here


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 29, 2019, 10:00:26
If you want to see the uphill battle being fought by anyone other than the Tories to get a fair hearing from the press, how about these two headlines from the Daily Express:

Labour plans for a £10 minimum wage:

Labour’s minimum wage plan could cost you YOUR job and send unemployment soaring
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1183556/labour-party-general-election-policy-jeremy-corbyn-prime-minister-minimum-wage
Daily Express, 28/09/2019

Tory plans for a £10.50 minimum wage:

Boris Johnson’s plan to raise wages across the country receives huge boost from expert
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1199992/boris-johnson-conservative-party-general-election-minimum-wage-raise-sajid-javid
Daily Express, 04/11/2019

Same policy, radically different coverage. It’s almost as if the billionaire owners of the press weren’t impartial about the party aiming to ensure they aren’t subject to tighter scrutiny of their tax affairs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 29, 2019, 10:05:41
Might be childish on Channel 4's part but "cowardly" would be a better word for Johnson, he knows he doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

I think its pretty clear that the Tories have realised that the faithful will vote whatever happens and thus they are just dodging any engagement unless entirely necessary, divisive figures like JRM have all but vanished and there is plenty of examples of them just not bothering to turn up to hustings or even actually campaigning in the constituencies, although for balance whilst Johnson has been conspicuous by his absence in Uxbridge, it has also been noted that similarly Corbyn has been barely seen in Islington. 

I see they are trying it on with the BBC dodging the Neil interview but suggesting that Johnson would be prepared to appear on the more gentle (non prime time) Marr show. The BBC should accept that and then Marr mysteriously fall ill on the morning and be replaced by Neil or Emily Maitlis as stand in presenter!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 29, 2019, 10:10:12
Boris just got torn apart on LBC by tory leaver Nick Ferrari.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, November 29, 2019, 10:12:45
When you listen to Ferrari, it's clear he's a Tory and clear that he's a Leaver.  But it's also clear that he shares the view of many on the Remain side that Johnson is a charlatan.  I'd be interested to hear what was said.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, November 29, 2019, 10:18:14
I see they are trying it on with the BBC dodging the Neil interview but suggesting that Johnson would be prepared to appear on the more gentle (non prime time) Marr show. The BBC should accept that and then Marr mysteriously fall ill on the morning and be replaced by Neil or Emily Maitlis as stand in presenter!
Absolutely!

After all, the Conservatives expected Gove to turn up uninvited at the last minute and be allowed to gatecrash the Leaders' Climate debate

In the real world, the compliant BBC would be unwilling to risk the repercussions from its likely paymasters


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 29, 2019, 11:04:11
If I were Marr, I'd be quite insulted that Johnson clearly sees him as a 'soft touch' in comparison to Neil, and be even more motivated to give him as hard a time as possible.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, November 29, 2019, 11:25:08
It seems stupid of Boris to duck Neil.  Everyone gets a rough ride from him so you're not going to look that bad by comparison.  Plus few people actually watch the programme and even fewer change their vote on the back of it, they mainly use it to pick out the bits that reconfirm their current view.

By contrast, "Cowardly Boris won't face TV interviewer" is an easy concept for the casual voter to grasp.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 29, 2019, 11:39:03
 Johnson's minders know that short of something clearly criminal, his reputation doesn't matter.

What does matter is the cohort of voters who still continue to buy the Brexit lies.  It's a form of Stockholm Syndrome.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Friday, November 29, 2019, 11:41:08
Boris just got torn apart on LBC by tory leaver Nick Ferrari.

Although he quickly moved on after Johnson signalled him to do so. Check out the video if you can, Boris obviously forgot he was being filmed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, November 29, 2019, 11:42:22
Read an interesting piece yesterday - I forget where - explaining that Johnson's tack is to make himself as small as possible during election campaigns, in stark contrast to his flamboyant, extrovert persona at other times.

To be honest, I think his calculation is that he's over the line already and that he can do what he likes.  Miss debates, mislead, avoid answering questions.  None of it matters.  He has enough 'Get Brexit Done' votes in the bag already.  He's stopped caring, and will probably spend the weekend watching Netflix or whatever and trying to forget that there's an election on at all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 29, 2019, 11:53:14
There's a lot of people actually applauding him for not doing a debate with Neil --- BECAUSE they know that he would be given a hard time.

That's what we're up against. A large number of the electorate just don't care about what's true and what isn't. Many openly say so themselves.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, November 29, 2019, 12:01:13
There's a lot of people actually applauding him for not doing a debate with Neil --- BECAUSE they know that he would be given a hard time.

That's what we're up against. A large number of the electorate just don't care about what's true and what isn't. Many openly say so themselves.

As I say it's like Stockholm Syndrome, the victim defends the perpetrator. It is quite brilliant in its pure cynicism, Diogenes the original cynic would be proud.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 29, 2019, 12:02:35
I see they are trying it on with the BBC dodging the Neil interview but suggesting that Johnson would be prepared to appear on the more gentle (non prime time) Marr show. The BBC should accept that and then Marr mysteriously fall ill on the morning and be replaced by Neil or Emily Maitlis as stand in presenter!
Hands up everyone who instead of turning up to work yesterday sent their Dad and a mate to do their job instead? Thought not.

I do wonder with the shenannigans with the BBC if there's not a longer game going on here. It's well known there's large cohorts on the Tory right that hate the BBC and would love to see it dismantled and stripped of the licence fee. So by utterly discrediting it's reputation for impartial journalism in this election, not only do they get a leg-up in the election but they also lay the ground for an all-out assault on the BBC post-election, with the BBC having alienated many of it's natural defenders thanks to the disgraceful way their political correspondents have conducted themselves over the past few months


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, November 29, 2019, 12:56:27
Doesn't matter if Boris has a Neil interview or not. People would vote for him if he completely fluffed every answer(let's be honest he does that anyway). There is overwhelming evidence of his dishonesty, racism, etc, etc but still people like the man. He could batter his girlfriend live on TV( I actually doubt he is physically able but hey) and people would ignore it.
The con that Brexit is "oven ready" and the continual " get Brexit done" is all the man has. The selfish cunts who think leaving the EU is the golden ticket are buying it. Everything else is brazen lies too. Yet, he will still be pm by the looks of it on December 13th. I just hope karma is a thing and those that endorse him and his vile party reap what they sow.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, November 29, 2019, 13:17:26
Thought Caroline Lucas was superb on QT last night by the way. Always impressed by her when she speaks


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 29, 2019, 13:41:26
This one's not a complaint about bias or anything. It's from a Daily Mail editor so it's to be expected.

I actually find it quite amusing.

(https://i.imgur.com/X54ErG9.jpg)

He is trying to tell people that this is text messages from a labour supporter/activist.

But the messages are all in blue which means that whoever took the screenshot was the sender. That same person supposedly sent it to a daily mail editor...

Now that is modern comedy gold. It's as if some of these people think we wouldn't notice!?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 29, 2019, 13:48:59
The 'explanation' for that was that the sender typed it out and then screenshotted it, sending the screenshots to a lot of people to avoid having to type it out.

It sounds plausible I suppose, but the Daily Mail 'journo' still used it despite there being no way to verify its authenticity. Pretty shoddy reporting but, then, it's not as though we should expect anything less from that lot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 29, 2019, 14:06:11
^Indeed. Depressingly  :cry:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, November 29, 2019, 14:40:32
The beeb are apparently refusing to give Pinnochio an interview with Marr unless he does one with Neil.

What a kerfuffle.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 29, 2019, 14:49:49
One of the more sinister aspects of last night was the Tories threatening to shut down C4 because they didn't like them not letting Johnson's Dad sit in for him. That's straight out of Erdogan's Turkey or (probably more aptly, given this likely came straight from Russian asset Dominic Cummings), Putin's Russia. Surprised there's not been more made of this, that's a horrendous thing for any supposedly democratic party to be threatening, to shut down broadcasters that they don't think are sufficiently compliant in backing the approved  govt line.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Friday, November 29, 2019, 14:57:28
Doesn't matter if Boris has a Neil interview or not. People would vote for him if he completely fluffed every answer(let's be honest he does that anyway). There is overwhelming evidence of his dishonesty, racism, etc, etc but still people like the man. He could batter his girlfriend live on TV( I actually doubt he is physically able but hey) and people would ignore it.
The con that Brexit is "oven ready" and the continual " get Brexit done" is all the man has. The selfish cunts who think leaving the EU is the golden ticket are buying it. Everything else is brazen lies too. Yet, he will still be pm by the looks of it on December 13th. I just hope karma is a thing and those that endorse him and his vile party reap what they sow.

People will continue to vote for BJ/Tory for the simple reason their is no credible alternative. Probably a case of better the devil you know.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 29, 2019, 15:07:41
Dear entrusting readers,

In regards to QT (See letter dated 27/11/2019. We know it's been pretty poor for a while). Some did say, Caroline Lucas really came across well and kept calling out the Conservative MP Brandon Lewis, who was dishing out current campaign slogans as "answers".

What annoyed me was Fiona Bruce, continually trying to stop Andy McDonald from finishing his piece and when he did, she didn't allow the audience to absorb and applaud his comments. Essentially suppressing the audience and quickly moving on, yet she didn't do that when others on the panel answered. Bruce also has a habit of changing the audience members questions at times, if it doesn't fit the apparent BBC narrative. It was very noticeable at times, as if she was getting instruction from the gallery to 'keep the audience quiet'. They failed mostly - and I was very glad about this too.

That bloody author though. Lionel Shriver...she was shocking in her defence of Boris Johnson (Islamophobia issue). Showed how totally out of touch in terms of direct and obvious offensive comments. They should've muted her mic after she said what she did. It was funny sic how her opinion on Corbyn was that she couldn't understand why Corbyn didn't apologise for anti-semitism (even though he already has time and again), in his Andrew Neil interview. Suggesting "I watched that interview, Corbyn didn't look good." Yet on the other hand, referencing Johnson and 'letterboxes' (sorry) she claimed;

 "Why is that so insulting *boos*, it's just an image - he was being light-hearted, it gets taken out of context *Muslim woman in audience interjects with countering comment and is clearly disgraced by Shriver's comment* this is not a standard slur (hello newly enabled closet racist)...did you read the original piece? He was standing up for Muslim women (hmmm you sure?)...Why is that racist?...I can't see how you can blame Johnson for that".

In any case the question from an audience member that preceded her comment, clearly summed things up about the abject mess our political picture is in, when regarding trust and taking our MPs seriously;

"Regarding racism in the Conservative Party - Does Boris' 'One bounce and you're out' not apply to himself?"

In current leader and opposition - we have a choice; a man who is continually being smeared by our state funded TV channel (in broad daylight) or a person who has very little knowledge beyond three campaign slogans and uses the terms "look like letterboxes" and "watermelon smiles". At least if it's a personality people are voting for come December 12th (which many will do) as opposed to voting for a Party with a credible series of policies, we should know the level of our very national problem. Enabling closet racists and how far those lines will continue to be pushed further can only go one way and thus in my opinion - worsen.

Yours despairingly,

A white male, virtue signalling, leftie (for all my friends of course).


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, November 30, 2019, 14:54:43
Bloody immigrants, coming over here, stopping our terrorists

It's interesting that the terrorist was originally sentenced under Labour's IPP which is an indeterminate sentence to be judged at stages by a panel, but could mean whole life. However the IPP was scrapped when the Tories got in, allowing this fella to win an appeal and so be let out, without any reference to a Parole Board.


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: pauld on Saturday, November 30, 2019, 15:06:22
It's interesting that the terrorist was originally sentenced under Labour's IPP which is an indeterminate sentence to be judged at stages by a panel, but could mean whole life. However the IPP was scrapped when the Tories got in, allowing this fella to win an appeal and so be let out, without any reference to a Parole Board.
That's extremely disingenuous. IPP sentences were scrapped after a ruling by the ECHR (nothing to do with the EU before the Brexiters start) that the then Tory govt appealed against and lost. I'm as appalled by the Tories' dismal record on law and order as you, but there's no need to stoop to there level of twisting to point that out. The drastic cuts made to the police, probation service and court systems speak for themselves.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, November 30, 2019, 16:53:16
I know polls are inaccurate but they've been used in this thread recently, so...


(https://i.imgur.com/qcC20Uo.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, November 30, 2019, 16:55:18
Quote from: Flashheart
The beeb are apparently refusing to give Pinnochio an interview with Marr unless he does one with Neil.

What a kerfuffle.
it appears they've folded


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Saturday, November 30, 2019, 17:12:38
I know polls are inaccurate but they've been used in this thread recently, so...


(https://i.imgur.com/qcC20Uo.png)


A post from the future?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, November 30, 2019, 17:36:05
A post from the future?

FH lives in Thailand.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Saturday, November 30, 2019, 20:11:00
Oh yeah.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, December 1, 2019, 13:30:54
From TheSecretBarrister on Twitter:

"The Prime Minister has basically copied and pasted my blogpost into a thread and passed it off as his own explanation. [of the situation regarding the London Bridge terrorist's release from jail]

A blogpost which I had to write to rebut the lies he spent yesterday spouting.

This is weapons grade shithousery."

https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1201076439250087936


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 2, 2019, 09:28:03
It's interesting that the terrorist was originally sentenced under Labour's IPP which is an indeterminate sentence to be judged at stages by a panel, but could mean whole life. However the IPP was scrapped when the Tories got in, allowing this fella to win an appeal and so be let out, without any reference to a Parole Board.

https://thesecretbarrister.com/2019/11/30/10-thing-you-should-know-about-the-london-bridge-attacker-and-early-release/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 2, 2019, 09:37:58
Tories have had an interesting few days,

First we have Theresa May and Johnson traipsing all the way down tyo Plymouth to unveil a statue of Nancy Astor who held very fruity views on Jewish people, the Nazi's and Catholics (and despoite the headlines was not the first female MP!)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nancy-astor-statue-theresa-may-boris-johnson-antisemitism-plymouth-a9226106.html

Likewise there is still no media coverage of the three Tory elected members who have been convicted for child sex offences inside of the past year, do they have an institutional problem I wonder, if only we had a fearless media to find out?   


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, December 2, 2019, 09:41:32
It's so brazen that the tories try to pin it on labour despite them having been in power for 10 years. It's as though they know that they don't need to bother trying to look honest any more; people just lap it up regardless. Helped by the tabloids spinning it to make the tories look like the heroes in saying they'll fix their own cock-up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, December 2, 2019, 10:49:13
First elected female MP was an Irish Republican for Sinn Fein who didn't take her seat.


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: pauld on Monday, December 2, 2019, 11:58:10
It's so brazen that the tory's try to pin it on labour despite them having been in power for 10 years. It's as though they know that they don't need to bother trying to look honest any more; people just lap it up regardless. Helped by the tabloids spinning it to make the tories look like the heroes in saying they'll fix their own cock-up.
And the appalling lack of respect shown to the families' wishes, despite the Jack Merritt's father calling for the govt and right wing press not to make political capital out of his son's death, that's exactly what they've done:

https://twitter.com/butwhatifitsall/status/1201288614329692161

Appalling people.


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, December 2, 2019, 12:42:57
And the appalling lack of respect shown to the families' wishes, despite the Jack Merritt's father calling for the govt and right wing press not to make political capital out of his son's death, that's exactly what they've done:

https://twitter.com/butwhatifitsall/status/1201288614329692161

Appalling people.

And Buckland is at the forefront of this operation...... beyond contempt


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: REDBUCK on Monday, December 2, 2019, 13:26:48
And Buckland is at the forefront of this operation...... beyond contempt

That's it, keep repeating it and place it on as many threads as you can and people might start believing it.


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, December 2, 2019, 13:55:25
That's it, keep repeating it and place it on as many threads as you can and people might start believing it.

To put it mildly I'm ashamed to think that a parasite like Buckland so say represents the southern half of Swindon and district, I'm inclined to think the majority of people in the area will find it his views similarly distastelul. 


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: pauld on Monday, December 2, 2019, 14:13:23
That's it, keep repeating it and place it on as many threads as you can and people might start believing it.
You mean you're comfortable with Johnson ignoring Jack Merritt's father's explicit request not to exploit his son's murder for election campaigning? And that our MP continued that on the radio this morning? You're OK with that?

I heard the interview this morning and it made my stomach churn. Buckland's never been my cup of tea politically but he always struck me as someone who was fundamentally decent, sad to see the depths he's been dragged down to by this PM


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, December 2, 2019, 14:49:44
You mean you're comfortable with Johnson ignoring Jack Merritt's father's explicit request not to exploit his son's murder for election campaigning? And that our MP continued that on the radio this morning? You're OK with that?

I heard the interview this morning and it made my stomach churn. Buckland's never been my cup of tea politically but he always struck me as someone who was fundamentally decent, sad to see the depths he's been dragged down to by this PM

Exactly my reaction.

The contrast to someone like Phillip Lee, who crossed the floor and left his job in the Justice Ministry, is stark.  Lee now critcises Buckland as using the Trump playbook.  Lee felt the no deal Brexit which Buckland now pursues is not representing his consttiuents.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 2, 2019, 14:58:54
Good god....

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/tory-general-election-candidate-claims-17335882


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, December 2, 2019, 16:17:06
That's it, keep repeating it and place it on as many threads as you can and people might start believing it.

Based on your email address... any relation to Robert by any chance?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 2, 2019, 16:38:32
https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/12/02/the-tory-racism-problem-is-as-severe-as-labour-s


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: pauld on Monday, December 2, 2019, 17:14:48
You mean you're comfortable with Johnson ignoring Jack Merritt's father's explicit request not to exploit his son's murder for election campaigning? And that our MP continued that on the radio this morning? You're OK with that?
Not answering this one then, Redbuck?

Jack Merritt's Dad has written a piece in the Graun, saying how "Jack would be livid his death has been used to further an agenda of hate".

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/02/jack-merritt-london-bridge-attack-dave-merritt


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: REDBUCK on Monday, December 2, 2019, 17:16:37
You mean you're comfortable with Johnson ignoring Jack Merritt's father's explicit request not to exploit his son's murder for election campaigning? And that our MP continued that on the radio this morning? You're OK with that?

I heard the interview this morning and it made my stomach churn. Buckland's never been my cup of tea politically but he always struck me as someone who was fundamentally decent, sad to see the depths he's been dragged down to by this PM
.

No not at all but it wasn't unexpected now was it, Tory ministers demanding tougher sentences is not a shock after one of these shocking attacks. To add a bit of the missing balance Corbyn added to the disrespect by making it all about cuts where he can't know the full story yet and can't know that the the whole situation wouldn't have occurred no matter how many support services are available.




   


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: pauld on Monday, December 2, 2019, 19:07:55
No not at all but it wasn't unexpected now was it
Not from Johnson, no, he's already shown how much respect he has for the families of victims of terrorism with his "Fuck the families" comment after 7/7. But I did genuinely expect better from Buckland. Shows how far Johnson has dragged the whole party into the pit. And your blase "Oh well" approach is quite shocking too, tbh, shows that ordinary people are prepared to accept almost any level of shithousing from politicians if they happen to be on their side. It's been rightly said that in a democracy we get the govt we deserve.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, December 2, 2019, 19:15:17
UKIP are attempting to top their last comedy leader Dick Brain with the superb Pat Mountain, giving this interview in which she refers to "other racist parties" as she seeks to stake a claim to be the only choice for the hardworking racist in your family

https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1201569056391864320

UKIP are surely now just a performance art alternative comedy act aren't they?


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, December 2, 2019, 19:59:41
But I did genuinely expect better from Buckland.

I'm surprised, after the revelations that he'd lied to Cameron to get a ministerial gig in the Justice Dept.  This was about his appearance before the Bar Council, and subsequent guilty of misconduct finding. You'd like to think that a Govt law officer would be of unimpeachable character.

Of course, Johnson probably sees a like mind in Buckland hence why he promoted him,  after he showed he was prepared to forget any principles he may have once had. Buckland will probably end up in the Lords.


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: Mother Brown on Monday, December 2, 2019, 20:08:28
I'm surprised, after the revelations that he'd lied to Cameron to get a ministerial gig in the Justice Dept.  This was about his appearance before the Bar Council, and subsequent guilty of misconduct finding. You'd like to think that a Govt law officer would be of unimpeachable character.

Of course, Johnson probably sees a like mind in Buckland hence why he promoted him,  after he showed he was prepared to forget any principles he may have once had. Buckland will probably end up in the Lords.
Taverners?


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: pauld on Monday, December 2, 2019, 20:37:24
I'm surprised, after the revelations that he'd lied to Cameron to get a ministerial gig in the Justice Dept.  This was about his appearance before the Bar Council, and subsequent guilty of misconduct finding. You'd like to think that a Govt law officer would be of unimpeachable character.
God yes I'd forgotten about that. Well, I shouldn't have been surprised then, as you say no wonder Johnson likes him


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: REDBUCK on Monday, December 2, 2019, 22:42:16
Not from Johnson, no, he's already shown how much respect he has for the families of victims of terrorism with his "Fuck the families" comment after 7/7. But I did genuinely expect better from Buckland. Shows how far Johnson has dragged the whole party into the pit.

And your blase "Oh well" approach is quite shocking too, tbh, shows that ordinary people are prepared to accept almost any level of shithousing from politicians if they happen to be on their side. It's been rightly said that in a democracy we get the govt we deserve.

It wasn't a blase `oh well' and I'm not on his or the current Tory MPs side but i cant help if you read it that way.




Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 00:39:18
Is the  Politics thread or...?  ???


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 07:34:04
Is the  Politics thread or...?  ???

Or?, or?, or? What?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 08:00:46
UKIP are attempting to top their last comedy leader Dick Brain with the superb Pat Mountain, giving this interview in which she refers to "other racist parties" as she seeks to stake a claim to be the only choice for the hardworking racist in your family

https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1201569056391864320

UKIP are surely now just a performance art alternative comedy act aren't they?
Nice to see Catherine Tate's nan character move into politics...

Sent from my SM-J330FN


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 09:16:51
https://twitter.com/Millar_Colin/status/1201581431371247616


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 09:31:32
It wasn't a blase `oh well' and I'm not on his or the current Tory MPs side but i cant help if you read it that way.
Sorry, I didn't mean it like that. What I meant was more that it's an indication of how far Johnson and co have debased the core concepts of integrity, honesty and decency in political life that this kind of thing isn't surprising to people. Apologies to you, I didn't phrase that very well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 09:55:55
Well this one may run...

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/02/un... (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/02/un...)

“Labour has been told to “come clean” about how it obtained leaked government documents after a report linked them to Russian interference in the general election.

Jeremy Corbyn last week published a 451-page dossier of classified information which he used to attack the Conservatives over the NHS.

He cited the documents last night in a letter to Donald Trump, quoting from them as he demanded the US President leaves the NHS out of any future trade talks with the UK.

But independent researchers say the documents had been published online using methods that directly mirror an earlier Russian disinformation campaign.”


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 09:57:39
They are on fire this morning...

Raab on R4, “I can tell you CATEGORICALLY, I've NEVER advocated privatisation of the NHS”.

Extract from 2011 book Dominic Raab co-authored with Patel “New non profit & private operators should be allowed into the service...and compete on PRICE”

Patel has also been blaming free movement for terrorism, there have been 12 terror attacks in the UK since 2005. Of the 19 known attackers 14 were British and ZERO entered the country using freedom of movement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 09:58:57
Well this one may run...

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/02/un... (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/02/un...)

“Labour has been told to “come clean” about how it obtained leaked government documents after a report linked them to Russian interference in the general election.

Jeremy Corbyn last week published a 451-page dossier of classified information which he used to attack the Conservatives over the NHS.

He cited the documents last night in a letter to Donald Trump, quoting from them as he demanded the US President leaves the NHS out of any future trade talks with the UK.

But independent researchers say the documents had been published online using methods that directly mirror an earlier Russian disinformation campaign.”


Isn't it fairly common knowledge that the documents had been freely available on Reddit since at least October, one of the reasons many journalists were so sheepish about it is that they totally missed the story?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 10:02:04
Well this one may run...

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/02/un... (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/02/un...)

“Labour has been told to “come clean” about how it obtained leaked government documents after a report linked them to Russian interference in the general election.

Jeremy Corbyn last week published a 451-page dossier of classified information which he used to attack the Conservatives over the NHS.

He cited the documents last night in a letter to Donald Trump, quoting from them as he demanded the US President leaves the NHS out of any future trade talks with the UK.

But independent researchers say the documents had been published online using methods that directly mirror an earlier Russian disinformation campaign.”


They were already in the public domain (on reddit).

Some deflection there from the Torygraph, attempting to distract from the content of the documents themselves. It only concerns the safety of the NHS after all, nothing really worth focusing on...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 10:02:23
Yup reddit was the outlet; ‘burner’ reddit and twitter accounts initially posted and then attempted to tweet the leak to German press and a number of other political and show business twitter accounts (including Bette Midler and Stephen Fry!). The accounts involved were suspended.
There was a very limited number of accesses including Global Justice Now who saw the unredacted version but reported it to the BBC.

The MO closely followed a series of previous leaks initiated by a Russian hack group called Secondary Infektion:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/02/n... (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/02/n...)

Labour refusing to say source of info.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 10:19:06
They were already in the public domain (on reddit).

Some deflection there from the Torygraph, attempting to distract from the content of the documents themselves. It only concerns the safety of the NHS after all, nothing really worth focusing on...

Its a dead cat, classic Dom....

I suspect that the Telegraph and government might also be trying to deflect any interest in light of the NATO summit and specifically what happened after the last NATO summit our divine leader attended...

Also be interesting to see what if any coverage the cartoon in the Dutch newspaper Volkskrant gets as its pretty bleak, but an insight into how the country, the government and the BBC is being viewed in the Netherlands right now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 10:26:41
Labour refusing to say source of info.
Erm, reddit by the sounds of it? More importantly, the source is just a distraction from the content. Given that Raab, Priti Patel and Truss co-authored the Britannia Unchained pamphlet which explicitly calls for privatisation of the NHS, a position Johnson has also advocated in the past (albeit quite some time ago), that Farage also favours privatising the NHS and that we know Trump wants to open up the NHS to US pharma, the content showing that the UK govt failed to take the NHS off the table in US trade talks is not just germane but remains deeply alarming.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 10:38:08
It also smacks of desperation from the Torygraph. Things are not looking as comfortable for the Tories as they were a couple of weeks ago.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 11:52:12
Reg keeps wittering on about standing stones, and I have never seen him and Rees-Mogg in the same place :hmmm: :hmmm:

https://www.indy100.com/article/jacob-rees-mogg-general-election-brexit-campaign-video-stanton-drew-9230456


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 12:27:40
Raab admits that the yanks can increase prices on drugs sold to the NHS.

Just scaremongering, probably...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 12:48:17
Reg keeps wittering on about standing stones, and I have never seen him and Rees-Mogg in the same place :hmmm: :hmmm:

https://www.indy100.com/article/jacob-rees-mogg-general-election-brexit-campaign-video-stanton-drew-9230456

Oh the irony.  Stone Circles were part of the Beaker culture which replaced the indiginous longbarrow culture. Beaker folk came from all over Europe, exercising freedom of movement.

Nobody knows what happened to precipitate this change, just that there's no evidence of conflict/violence etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 13:13:27
Those beaker folk, coming over here.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 13:24:14
Oh the irony.  Stone Circles were part of the Beaker culture which replaced the indiginous longbarrow culture. Beaker folk came from all over Europe, exercising freedom of movement.

Nobody knows what happened to precipitate this change, just that there's no evidence of conflict/violence etc.

Well you learn something new every day...

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/09/48/b209480353c489e0f0616131d585defd.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BrightonRed on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 13:53:53
Those beaker folk, coming over here.....

What's wrong with just cupping up the water in your hands? And licking it up like a cat?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 14:27:12
Well, well well. That bloody anti-semitic bastard.

https://twitter.com/reider/status/1201567491832442880


Title: Re: trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 15:05:11
Taverners?

Maybe Buckland was in the audience....

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/03/nish-kumar-gets-frosty-reception-at-lords-taverners-charity-feast


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 15:34:05
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/03/election-coverage-bbc-tories

The Dutch have picked up on it as well.... https://twitter.com/sashasimic/status/1201874833035943938 (its not very subtle or nice)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 15:46:07
Not from Johnson, no, he's already shown how much respect he has for the families of victims of terrorism with his "Fuck the families" comment after 7/7. But I did genuinely expect better from Buckland. Shows how far Johnson has dragged the whole party into the pit.
Now it's Raab's turn to demonstrate his utter contempt for bereaved families

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/03/harry-dunn-father-attacks-dominic-raab-over-road-death


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 18:16:07
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/03/election-coverage-bbc-tories

The Dutch have picked up on it as well.... https://twitter.com/sashasimic/status/1201874833035943938 (its not very subtle or nice)

Even if you were to give the BBC the benefit of the doubt and allow that it is all just honest mistakes - their coverage has still been a fucking disgrace. Allowing Johnson to get away from an interview with Neil after others had been grilled is reprehensible. Giving Johnson an interview with Marr despite them knowing he was shirking the interview with Neil made it even worse. WTF were they thinking?

These guys are supposed to be at the top of their profession - which suggests to me that these 'mistakes' are far from being honest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 18:22:36
Now it's Raab's turn to demonstrate his utter contempt for bereaved families

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/03/harry-dunn-father-attacks-dominic-raab-over-road-death

The whole affair has been treated with discontent.   Absolutely disgusting that someone can kill an innocent person then just fuck off abroad claiming diplomatic immunity,  from what I can gather she's not even a diplomat.    Accidents happen,  but have the balls to admit your error and hold your hands up.   Seems like the government just don't give a fuck.  Not good enough.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 18:26:21
BBC Newsnight
@BBCNewsnight

More than 93,000 suspected violent criminals and sex offenders have been released without restrictions by police in England and Wales since 2017, figures obtained by #Newsnight show.

Yeah, but Corbyn...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 22:55:03
Maybe Buckland was in the audience....

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/03/nish-kumar-gets-frosty-reception-at-lords-taverners-charity-feast

Poor little snowflakes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 09:25:48
BBC Newsnight
@BBCNewsnight

More than 93,000 suspected violent criminals and sex offenders have been released without restrictions by police in England and Wales since 2017, figures obtained by #Newsnight show.

Yeah, but Corbyn...

tHe LaSt LaBoUr GoVeRnMenT


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 10:00:22
Even if you were to give the BBC the benefit of the doubt and allow that it is all just honest mistakes - their coverage has still been a fucking disgrace. Allowing Johnson to get away from an interview with Neil after others had been grilled is reprehensible. Giving Johnson an interview with Marr despite them knowing he was shirking the interview with Neil made it even worse. WTF were they thinking?

These guys are supposed to be at the top of their profession - which suggests to me that these 'mistakes' are far from being honest.


I can see the BBC getting in a bit of a pickle WRT the whole Neil thing unless its sorted out. Where does it stand on their requirement to be impartial if only some leaders are interviewed, they should have not broadcast the Corbyn etc ones until the Johnson one was in the can.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 10:01:48
BBC Newsnight
@BBCNewsnight

More than 93,000 suspected violent criminals and sex offenders have been released without restrictions by police in England and Wales since 2017, figures obtained by #Newsnight show.

Yeah, but Corbyn...

Would not be a problem in itself, if it were not for the fact that the government have decimated probation and rehabilitation services within the same time frame.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 10:10:55
Would not be a problem in itself, if it were not for the fact that the government have decimated probation and rehabilitation services within the same time frame.

Wheat really grates is that they're blaming Labour - and people are buying it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 10:23:50
Wheat really grates is that they're blaming Labour - and people are buying it.

Barley can be similarly awkward....  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 10:28:24
Lolz, oops.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 11:55:45
The BBC are blaming the Boris interview with Neil (or lack thereof) on 'complex logistics'. Organising 4/5 interviews is 'complex logistics' for an organisation of the size and expertise of the BBC?

No, me neither.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 12:04:49
The BBC are blaming the Boris interview with Neil (or lack thereof) on 'complex logistics'. Organising 4/5 interviews is 'complex logistics' for an organisation of the size and expertise of the BBC?
Probably sounds better than "due to the inherent bias and incompetence of our senior political reporting team"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 13:34:49
By way of some light relief - Tory candidate can't be bothered to turn up for hustings debate on climate change so sends a local councillor instead who decides not to stick around for the Q&A, but leaves via a rear exit after making a short speech. Only to find it's a dead end, doesn't want to go back through the hall because she'll look a twat and ends up stuck in a back yard for 45 minutes before having to climb over bins to get over the fence:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/03/no-great-escape-tory-scales-fence-and-bins-to-exit-climate-hustings-lewes

:)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 13:39:48
Nice to see, based on the present forecast its due to snow just about everywhere on polling day.

Classic Dom.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 13:44:34
Looks like Diane Abbott has been at the calculator again.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1202183745169690624.html (https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1202183745169690624.html)

Free money doesn't add up shocker.

Vote Labour! Get free money! Honest guv! Pay nothing until the IMF arrives! Then adopt the position!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 13:49:35
Looks like Diane Abbott has been at the calculator again.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/120218374516969... (https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/120218374516969...)

Free money doesn't add up shocker.

Vote Labour! Get free money! Honest guv! Pay nothing until the IMF arrives! Then adopt the position!

Although I bet she can copy and paste a URL:

404: Page not found.
No route found for "GET /thread/120218374516969..." (from "http://thetownend.com/index.php?topic=55431.msg1521939;topicseen")


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 13:53:40
Although I bet she can copy and paste a URL:

404: Page not found.
No route found for "GET /thread/120218374516969..." (from "http://thetownend.com/index.php?topic=55431.msg1521939;topicseen")

oops, sorted now!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 13:55:20
Speaking of dear Diane. Firstly complete removal of her from the national election campaign. like she has been airbrushed out of the party lineup altogether.

Last week a significant terrorist event and no proper statement or her as Shadow Home Secretary, just a couple of hasty tweets on the day and then a sly couple in the days later attempting to get a dig into Boris Johnson, still nothing about what she would do about it if she changed from Shadow to "proper" Home Secretary on Dec 13th. As I say airbrushed out.

Also last week not only does her son (he of the private education remember) actually manage to get sacked from the Foreign Office, but then goes on to bite and assault a police officer? Which she's then picked up the airbrush and tried but failed to keep out of the press?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 14:00:15
Speaking of dear Diane. Firstly complete removal of her from the national election campaign. like she has been airbrushed out of the party lineup altogether.

Last week a significant terrorist event and no proper statement or her as Shadow Home Secretary, just a couple of hasty tweets on the day and then a sly couple in the days later attempting to get a dig into Boris Johnson, still nothing about what she would do about it if she changed from Shadow to "proper" Home Secretary on Dec 13th. As I say airbrushed out.
Much like Rees-Mogg then? All parties have their embarrassing incompetents they'd rather people didn't examine too closely. It's why Johnson keeps bottling that Andrew Neil interview


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 14:01:30
What does her son have to do with anything?  I don't very much liker her, but we'd be in trouble in life if we were judged by others an not ourselves.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 14:06:59
I just cannot put my finger on why people single out Diane Abbott for specific vitriol its really strange, its almost like there is something specifically about her that offends or riles many right wingers?  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 14:09:47
I'm sure the figures Labour give will be questioned. Fair enough, but I'd rather they were wrong in trying to do good than just blatantly misleading like the Tories extra 50,000 nurses lie, for instance.
Imagine the ridicule Abbott would have received if she had come out with those bizarre calculations. They were laughable but now we hear nothing about it. Abbott has been bombarded with abuse and jokes since the last general election for getting some numbers confused with a slip of the tongue. Nowhere near as bad as adding 19,000 existing staff to numbers and stating they are new. Lies...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 14:10:55
What does her son have to do with anything?  I don't very much liker her, but we'd be in trouble in life if we were judged by others an not ourselves.

At least Abbott can count the number of her offspring, unlike Johnson.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 14:23:05
Anyone here who's Mum went out to work? You're a mugger, according to Boris Johnson
Working class? Drunk, criminal and feckless
Single child? Ill-raised, ignorant, aggressive
Poor? Chavs, losers, burglars and drug addicts
Gay? Tank topped bumboy
Black? Watermelon smiled picanninnie

Think that's probably most of us covered.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 14:30:09
I just cannot put my finger on why people single out Diane Abbott for specific vitriol its really strange, its almost like there is something specifically about her that offends or riles many right wingers?  :hmmm:

Being thick as pig shit most likely.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 14:31:24
Being thick as pig shit most likely.
Can't be that or they'd all be piling into Raab and Mark Francois


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 14:35:42
The tories have released tens of thousands of dangerous criminals, children are hungry, the NHS is struggling to cope, and the prime minister (and others) have been found on numerous attempts disrespecting the working class as well as making racist statements.

... but Dianne Abbott gets her numbers wrong sometimes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BrightonRed on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 14:53:55
By way of some light relief - Tory candidate can't be bothered to turn up for hustings debate on climate change so sends a local councillor instead who decides not to stick around for the Q&A, but leaves via a rear exit after making a short speech. Only to find it's a dead end, doesn't want to go back through the hall because she'll look a twat and ends up stuck in a back yard for 45 minutes before having to climb over bins to get over the fence:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/03/no-great-escape-tory-scales-fence-and-bins-to-exit-climate-hustings-lewes

:)

It was clearly all too much for poor old Maria Caulfield who deleted her twitter account when this story broke last night.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 15:15:53
Abbott is just shit. Or rather she comes across as shit in interview.

Therefore she is a figure of ridicule


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 15:17:25
Quote from: pauld
Quote
Being thick as pig shit most likely.
Can't be that or they'd all be piling into Raab and Mark Francois

they do


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 15:24:56

Therefore she is a figure of ridicule

Which is fine.

But the point is that other figures of ridiculed are not also ridiculed. Not to the same degree anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 15:25:56
This was the original quote
I just cannot put my finger on why people single out Diane Abbott for specific vitriol its really strange, its almost like there is something specifically about her that offends or riles many right wingers?  :hmmm:
Can't be that or they'd all be piling into Raab and Mark Francois

they do
They (right wingers) don't. The same right wingers who so deride Abbott absolutely love Hard Brexiter Francois and "Didn't know about trade going through Dover and Calais, wants to privatise the NHS" Raab


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 15:27:12
well no, right wingers don't .

the rest of the public via social media do


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 15:28:09
News: Boris Johnson insults all working-class men, single mothers, their children, black people, muslims, gay people, and pretty much anybody that is not a straight, white, toff.

Also news: Traitor Jeremy Corbyn doesn't watch the Queen's speech*

*He visits homeless shelters instead.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 15:29:21
Nothing to see here, move along the bus....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-no-deal-nato-trump-nhs-general-election-a9232601.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 15:45:55
well no, right wingers don't .

the rest of the public via social media do

Not to anywhere near the extent Abbott does. I'd wager she gets more alone than the entire conservative party collectively do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 15:47:14
well no, right wingers don't .

the rest of the public via social media do
And rightly so. But horlock asked what it might be about Abbott specifically that caused so many right wingers to latch on to her? And I suggested it wasn't stupidity as GR said, or else those same right wingers would pile in to Francois and Raab. Which they don't


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 16:11:50
And rightly so. But horlock asked what it might be about Abbott specifically that caused so many right wingers to latch on to her? And I suggested it wasn't stupidity as GR said, or else those same right wingers would pile in to Francois and Raab. Which they don't


But the answer is the same She come across as stupid in interview (and is part of the left, whether percetion or actually ). Therefore the right attack her as a soft target.

They are hardly going to do the same to their own man. The "left" do though.

I may be wrong, but I read Horlock's post as suggesting  it was because she was black.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 16:53:39
Being thick as pig shit most likely.

How many Cambridge university degrees have you got?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 17:35:39
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/burger-king-advert-vote-leave-brexit-bus-whopper-a4304601.html

Sent from my SM-J330FN


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 19:03:35
By way of some light relief - Tory candidate can't be bothered to turn up for hustings debate on climate change so sends a local councillor instead who decides not to stick around for the Q&A, but leaves via a rear exit after making a short speech. Only to find it's a dead end, doesn't want to go back through the hall because she'll look a twat and ends up stuck in a back yard for 45 minutes before having to climb over bins to get over the fence:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/03/no-great-escape-tory-scales-fence-and-bins-to-exit-climate-hustings-lewes

:)
The poor Tory Councillor did have an easier solution but I do empathise with her predicament. 

I'm not a lot younger than your average Tory councillor these days.  By my own stupidity, I had locked myself in to our Village's isolated outdoor pool.  I was in charge of closing it this particular September night.  I had just a pair of trunks and a T shirt.  It was pitch black and raining! 

I had to somehow scale a 6' fence topped by protective barbed wire.  Had to move garden furniture against the fence, then swing precariously over the fence, picking up a few grazes/cuts before falling into a bed of stinging nettles. 

I must admit to being bloody glad no sweet young girl or other passer-by witnessed my humiliating escape.  The wife was however far from sympathetic when I returned bloodied, underdressed, soaked and bedraggled.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 21:01:17
How many Cambridge university degrees have you got?

Sadly none. Abbott has 1 in history, which was my worst subject at school.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 07:28:45
history.....she's over achieving.

she may be blindingly brilliant behind the scenes. Who knows. that's irrelevant. If you look pig shit thick in front of camera, you are fucked.

Why do you think Johnson is ducking serious scrutiny.

(oh, and they've mostly hidden the actual wankers away too -JRM)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 10:08:06

But the answer is the same She come across as stupid in interview (and is part of the left, whether percetion or actually ). Therefore the right attack her as a soft target.

They are hardly going to do the same to their own man. The "left" do though.

I may be wrong, but I read Horlock's post as suggesting  it was because she was black.
I think actually he meant it's because she's a black woman. Abbott is crap at interviews and does come across as a bit thick, so yeah she's always going to be the target of ridicule as a result, just as Francois, Raab, Rees-Mogg etc are. But a lot of the stuff thrown her way is way more extreme than mere ridicule, it's racist death/rape threats etc. And it's not just a few, there's hundreds of these people targetting her like that

There has been some evidence (and frustratingly, I can't now find the link to the research) that female MPs (of all parties) have been disproportionately targeted for the most extreme hate, whether that be via social media, rape/death threats in the post or verbal attacks in the street. Anna Soubry, for example, has a police guard as routine because of some of the stuff she's had from extreme Brexiters, and Luciana Berger similarly targeted by the hard left.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 10:33:23
Abbott receives 50% of the abuse directed at female MPs on twitter:

https://www.newstatesman.com/2017/09/we-tracked-25688-abusive-tweets-sent-women-mps-half-were-directed-diane-abbott

Black and Asian female MPs are abused more often:

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/online-violence-women-mps

There's more research linked in this Indy article:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/mps-abuse-online-anna-soubry-female-politicians-rape-threats-research-jo-cox-a8726796.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 10:36:33
Cheers jayo, you saved me from my lazy googling :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 12:12:25
Sajid David claiming high homelessness rates are Labour's fault.

Literally. I've not dressed that up in any way. He is literally saying that the problem is not their fault, but the fault of a party that has not been in power for 10 years.

And people will buy it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 12:33:13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI87PRgIKks

The last verse needs to be the slogan for the rest of the campaign!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 13:33:16
Not normally got a lot of time for Prince Charles, but if this is intentional, he's growing on me:

https://twitter.com/BettyBowers/status/1202046156940836865


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 14:09:36
Sajid David claiming high homelessness rates are Labour's fault.

Literally. I've not dressed that up in any way. He is literally saying that the problem is not their fault, but the fault of a party that has not been in power for 10 years.

And people will buy it.
Sajid Javid, of course, was at Deutsche Bank in the 2000s selling the CDOs that started the "credit crunch". There can't be many people in front-line politics, anywhere in the world, who is in any way more responsible than him for the subsequent world-wide recession and the impact of it.

But yes, keep on blaming Labour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 14:18:31
Notwithstanding that homelessness reached historic lows under the last labour government


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 15:34:31
Jewish Labour Movement's submission to the EHRC has been leaked, and it's pretty remarkable

https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1202505953498... (https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1202505953498...)

"The Labour Party is no longer a safe space for Jewish people”. Imagine this about any other ethnic group, in any other party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 15:56:25
and it's pretty remarkable


It is?

How so?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 16:00:29
Jewish Labour Movement's submission to the EHRC has been leaked, and it's pretty remarkable

https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1202505953498... (https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1202505953498...)

"The Labour Party is no longer a safe space for Jewish people”. Imagine this about any other ethnic group, in any other party.

Incredible.

Let’s see how the usual suspects try to spin this one...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 16:01:23
Incredible.


It is?

How so?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 16:02:28

"The Labour Party is no longer a safe space for Jewish people”. Imagine this about any other ethnic group, in any other party.

You don't need to imagine it - here's Baroness Warsi on Islamophobia in the Tories.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/27/sayeeda-warsi-tory-islamophobia-muslim-prejudice-investigation

That doesn't excuse Labour on this btw.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 16:04:37
What are the odds that Trump is actually pushed out of office?  More than zero?  How does it work?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 16:06:32
It is?

How so?

It's a great shame that Labour led by Jewish Ed Milliband, never won the 2015 GE.  That way we could be having another election in the summer, after a period of stability to try and sort out some of the pressing issues that have been caused by austerity.  Instead we've had near on 5 years of Tory chaos, with bizarrely every indicator that it will now get worse.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 16:11:29
What are the odds that Trump is actually pushed out of office?  More than zero?  How does it work?
It's now a political process. The Democrats need to persuade enough Republican senators to vote for impeachment. So little or fuck all


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 16:11:47
It's a great shame that Labour led by Jewish Ed Milliband, never won the 2015 GE.  That way we could be having another election in the summer, after a period of stability to try and sort out some of the pressing issues that have been caused by austerity.  Instead we've had near on 5 years of Tory chaos, with bizarrely every indicator that it will now get worse.

If 'the people' vote in a 4th consecutive Tory administration against that backdrop, it will be the clearest indicator yet that this country is irredeemably fucked.  A dystopian cocktail of self harm & Stockholm Syndrome.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 16:22:07
I’d say it points more to a completely unelectable Labour Party in its present form. All the convoluted hoo-ha about anti-semitism isn’t much of a vote loser, imo. It’s the policies people don’t want.

They want a Blair Labour Party - or Tory lite, if you will.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 16:25:27
What happens when you give Labour supporters Corbyn quotes on Jews, but pretend it was Boris who said them.

https://youtu.be/ITCX2mDiFzE (https://youtu.be/ITCX2mDiFzE)

It quite clearly shows the cult of St Jeremy that is endemic amongst Labour activists and quite a few on this forum!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 16:26:44
It’s the policies people don’t want.


He was the devil incarnate long before his manifesto was released.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 16:36:03
Oh, correct. He’s just not the sort of PM your average Brit would vote for. They know, with Boris, they’ll still get shafted, but it’s the sort of shafting they’re used to or expecting.

Corbyn’s retro policies is scary to a lot of people. Much the same as why Michael Foot was never, ever a credible PM.

They’re both great for party activists but when it comes to an election they’re a complete no no.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 16:47:12
I’d say it points more to a completely unelectable Labour Party in its present form. All the convoluted hoo-ha about anti-semitism isn’t much of a vote loser, imo. It’s the policies people don’t want.

They want a Blair Labour Party - or Tory lite, if you will.

It isn't that simple, going back to 2015, Milliband stood on a very moderate platform, but was still slaughtered by the MSM, he was Red Ed, a bit geeky, and couldn't eat a bacon sandwich.  Worse he was Jewish and his father was a Marxist academic refugee.

It will make bugger all difference who Labour put up, they will still get slaughtered.... the media owners fear that a Labour government  may wish to implement the recommendations of the Leveson Inquiry into phone hacking etc, and that their of fshore tax status may be brought into question by either the EU or a Labour Government.   Having a couple of their employees in Johnson and Gove lieing their way into office suits them just fine


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 17:02:08
It's a great shame that Labour led by Jewish Ed Milliband, never won the 2015 GE.  That way we could be having another election in the summer, after a period of stability to try and sort out some of the pressing issues that have been caused by austerity.  Instead we've had near on 5 years of Tory chaos, with bizarrely every indicator that it will now get worse.

Yes, you really do have to wonder how much worse the promised 'chaos under Ed Miliband' could possibly have been...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 17:02:38
It will make bugger all difference who Labour put up, they will still get slaughtered.... the media owners fear that a Labour government  may wish to implement the recommendations of the Leveson Inquiry into phone hacking etc, and that their of fshore tax status may be brought into question by either the EU or a Labour Government.   Having a couple of their employees in Johnson and Gove lieing their way into office suits them just fine
That's always been the case, going right back to the Zinoviev forgery in the 1920s (another Daily Mail classic) the media have been biased against Labour. If Labour want to gain power and make a difference, they need to find a way to overcome that, otherwise they're doomed to permanently whinging about the rigged system in opposition. They could start by electing a leader who doesn't constantly shoot himself and his party in the foot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 17:03:33
What are the odds that Trump is actually pushed out of office?  More than zero?  How does it work?

Zero, they would need double digit defections in the Senate to remove him from office.  They've already shown their hand that they won;t do this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 17:13:58
Zero, they would need double digit defections in the Senate to remove him from office.  They've already shown their hand that they won;t do this.

Though that's not really the point of this. The Dems can do the sums just as well as you. The calculation is that by dominating the news cycle with all this dirt over several weeks, forcing the Republicans to contort themselves into such desperate defences of the indefensible, they expose the GOP's credibility gap to enough of the electorate before the next election. That's where Pelosi was clever to hold off on the repeated calls to impeach before now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 17:17:00
Thank fuck there's only one more week of this left. My facebook feed is filled with more bollocks than a vets castration waste receptacle. It's a great shame that most people are more interested in personalities, as opposed to policies.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 17:23:08
Though that's not really the point of this. The Dems can do the sums just as well as you. The calculation is that by dominating the news cycle with all this dirt over several weeks, forcing the Republicans to contort themselves into such desperate defences of the indefensible, they expose the GOP's credibility gap to enough of the electorate before the next election. That's where Pelosi was clever to hold off on the repeated calls to impeach before now.

I have American friends on social media.

From what I can gather, a lot of Republicans are likely to be going into self-defense mode and possibly turning on Trump. I can't remember the reasoning for it now (I wasn't paying that much attention), but it made sense to me at the time I was reading it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 17:27:08
Was sent to Nantes today, to cover the "Tear gas" story. It's a really lovely place but all I could keep thinking about was Prince Andrew.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 19:40:35
Was sent to Nantes today, to cover the "Tear gas" story. It's a really lovely place but all I could keep thinking about was Prince Andrew.
I'm sure he'd appreciate you thinking of him at this difficult time. Nice for him to have the commoners rally round :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 19:58:12
LBC's James O'Brien is really laying into Andrew Neil on twitter over the BJ interview (or lack thereof). He's basically just accusing him of being corrupt. Slanderous stuff (if it's not true).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Richie Wellen-Dowd on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 20:20:30
LBC's James O'Brien is really laying into Andrew Neil on twitter over the BJ interview (or lack thereof). He's basically just accusing him of being corrupt. Slanderous stuff (if it's not true).

Before or after what Andrew Neil said at the end of tonight's interview? I'm going to guess before. James O'Brien is a bit of a gobshite in my book, not that he's always wide of the mark mind.

Edit: Just seen it was afterwards  :eek:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 20:37:38
A couple of examples. One from before and one from after the interview

(https://i.imgur.com/X7I75pO.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/ubnPp3r.png)

I think there'll be a few calls made to their lawyers in the next couple of days or so.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Thursday, December 5, 2019, 21:46:50
The tellyservies traditionaly have gone a bit non-partisan over the build up to an election, infact their are rules about it.

As someone who's been pro-corbyin, maybe at times thought the parrty could do better, etc...

You have to be off your fucking rocker to think the tory party are better for any minoritie groups, poor people, just society in general.

Fuck the tories.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, December 6, 2019, 00:06:29
JO'B has picked the wrong target there. To be fair to Neil, he isn't the one arranging the interviews and in any case, it was Boris' team that have been swerving the interview with him. Obviously JO'B got caught up in a moment of polirage.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, December 6, 2019, 00:11:13
I'm sure he'd appreciate you thinking of him at this difficult time. Nice for him to have the commoners rally round :)

Na Nantes is nicer than nice. Imagine he took a trip to Nantes though? Be like a version of "Elf on the Shelf". Talking of that, anyone seen the "Cunt on a Punt" (and no it's not me)  :soapy tit wank:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 6, 2019, 09:37:31
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/06/tory-candidate-says-disabled-people-paid-less-dont-understand-money-11280594/?ito=twitter

Yeah.

But Corbyn...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Friday, December 6, 2019, 09:40:19
Yeah but ant-antisemitism.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 6, 2019, 09:42:42
...and islamophobia

So unsubstantiated claims of antisemitism actually trump somebody saying directly and unequivocally that disabled people should work for less?

Gotcha.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, December 6, 2019, 09:52:01
yeah but get brexit done


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 6, 2019, 09:56:10
Looks like Boris has been caught lying about his Brexit deal. Again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, December 6, 2019, 09:58:08
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/06/tory-candidate-says-disabled-people-paid-less-dont-understand-money-11280594/?ito=twitter

Yeah.

But Corbyn...

Another day, another Tory putting their foot in it.

This media basis thing that labour supporters bang on about is definitely overexaggerated, stories like this everyday on a different bigoted Tory


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 6, 2019, 10:02:13
Looks like Boris has been caught lying about his Brexit deal. Again.
Won't make any difference. To use the jargon, Brexiters have already "priced that in" that he's a lying untrustworthy bastard. And they don't care, because they believe he's their best hope of getting the unicorns shitting rainbow skittles that they voted for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 6, 2019, 10:04:51
Another day, another Tory putting their foot in it.

This media basis thing that labour supporters bang on about is definitely overexaggerated, stories like this everyday on a different bigoted Tory

It's BBC bias that's the main problem.

Certain outlets are biased, it's just one of those things. The likes of the daily mail ARE ridiculously biased but it's always been that way.

The BBC, however, is supposed to be impartial.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 6, 2019, 10:07:13
Won't make any difference. To use the jargon, Brexiters have already "priced that in" that he's a lying untrustworthy bastard. And they don't care, because they believe he's their best hope of getting the unicorns shitting rainbow skittles that they voted for.

True. But it might cause some to shift to Farage's outfit in marginal seats instead.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 6, 2019, 10:08:54
JO'B has picked the wrong target there. To be fair to Neil, he isn't the one arranging the interviews and in any case, it was Boris' team that have been swerving the interview with him. Obviously JO'B got caught up in a moment of polirage.

I think you're right.  There are bigger battles to fight right now.

Looks like Boris has been caught lying about his Brexit deal. Again.

Another parallel between Johnson and Trump (from a disturbingly large list) is that he's Teflon.  He can lie & lie & lie, and it doesn't matter.  When he gets caught lying, he doubles down - again, just like Trump.  He tells the lie again.  And again.  And there comes a point where those calling him out have nothing left to say or to challenge him with.

His eventual downfall, when it comes, will be spectacular and brutal.  This will happen at around the same time as the penny drops finally and 'The People' realise that they've been mugged off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 6, 2019, 11:18:09
True. But it might cause some to shift to Farage's outfit in marginal seats instead.
Maybe but even the rats are deserting that ship. Farage has a remarkable track record of launching personal vanity projects disguised as political parties then having them collapse in acrimony and in-fighting doesn't he? Still, he's done very well personally out of all the chaos so that's all right, he's made a packet so fuck the country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 6, 2019, 11:20:08
Another parallel between Johnson and Trump (from a disturbingly large list) is that he's Teflon.  He can lie & lie & lie, and it doesn't matter.  When he gets caught lying, he doubles down - again, just like Trump.  He tells the lie again.  And again.  And there comes a point where those calling him out have nothing left to say or to challenge him with.
It's not a coincidence. Johnson and Cummings have had a series of meet-ups with Bannon, Trump's former strategist and the man who made white nationalism mainstream in the US, and have directly copied his playbook. Including a lot of the nasty far right shit. It will get worse


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Friday, December 6, 2019, 11:20:49
...and islamophobia

So unsubstantiated claims of antisemitism actually trump somebody saying directly and unequivocally that disabled people should work for less?

Gotcha.

What do you mean "Gotcha", are you fucking Noel Edmonds?

There seems to be HUGE smacks of hypocrisy with left wing voters.
To vigorously berate and vilify (in many cases justified) when it comes to racism conducted by others - but yet when it is being done by themselves it is nothing more than a "misunderstanding" or something that they are willing to ignore.

The left are belittling themselves and they are most definitely making a strong case that the left do not have much honour or credibility with anything they say they themselves stand up for.

Corbyn and the culture of Jewish hate within the party should have been stamped out years ago - but for the fact that they have let it fester is a sign that the current version of left wing politics in the labour party is indeed nothing more than a party of hate. Whether it is hate of the Tories, hate of capitalism, and of course hate of the Jewish - once the 'hate' has embedded itself within the party and it becomes the norm, it also becomes very clear that it is the only factor in their world view.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Friday, December 6, 2019, 11:24:19
Of all the parties likely to receive any meaningful votes, only one of them is, by historic and ongoing floods of evidence, a RACIST party.
And it looks like they may poll 2nd place in the election !

What is going on in the mindset of left wing voters today?

It has generally been the left wing that became triggered and voiced the loudest against any whiff of racism, and yet left wingers up and down the country are going to be voting for a racist party.

I do hope they take a look at what they are about to do and ask themselves if that is the Britain they want to be a part of.
Is it because the far left are subscribing to the old image of Jews being the rich controllers of capital and industry, and therefore, natural enemies of their cause?

The same argument used to great effect in Germany in the 1930s.

Forget Israel and Palestine, this is the real driver.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 6, 2019, 11:39:39
What do you mean "Gotcha", are you fucking Noel Edmonds?


Of course I'm not Noel Edmonds.

Perhaps you missed the nuance. In this context it means 'Got you', as in I understand'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 6, 2019, 11:41:45
Of all the parties likely to receive any meaningful votes, only one of them is, by historic and ongoing floods of evidence, a RACIST party.
That's bollocks. There is a real and genuine problem with anti-Semitism in the Labour party which stems from a failure of the leadership to tackle the issue; there is a real and genuine problem with Islamophobia in the English Nationalist Party (formerly the Conservative Party) which also stems from a failure of the leadership to tackle the issue and has been stoked by the leader to garner his own support. At the moment, neither are institutionally a racist party, both need to tackle the issues they have to avoid the suspicion that they are comfortable with ducking it. But of the two, Johnson is the one who has the track record of directly racist remarks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 6, 2019, 11:42:06

There seems to be HUGE smacks of hypocrisy with left wing voters.


Fancy that!

And the same can't be said for the right? I mean, you did just pull some textbook whataboutery in response to a Tory saying some pretty fucked up things about disabled people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Friday, December 6, 2019, 11:43:51
That's bollocks. There is a real and genuine problem with anti-Semitism in the Labour party which stems from a failure of the leadership to tackle the issue; there is a real and genuine problem with Islamophobia in the English Nationalist Party (formerly the Conservative Party) which also stems from a failure of the leadership to tackle the issue and has been stoked by the leader to garner his own support. At the moment, neither are institutionally a racist party, both need to tackle the issues they have to avoid the suspicion that they are comfortable with ducking it. But of the two, Johnson is the one who has the track record of directly racist remarks.

And the other points in my post, are you going to ignore those too?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 6, 2019, 11:44:28
Of all the parties likely to receive any meaningful votes, only one of them is, by historic and ongoing floods of evidence, a RACIST party.
And it looks like they may poll 2nd place in the election !


Are you honestly trying to tell us that the tories don't have a history (and a current problem) with racism? really? Are you fucking serious?

And you're complaining about others being biased.

Crikey.

*And I'm not saying one excuses the other. Just calling you out on trying to rewrite history.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 6, 2019, 11:59:48
And the other points in my post, are you going to ignore those too?

As they're based on the initial false premise, they also fail for the same reason. Labour does indeed have a massive problem with anti-semitism, but it's really not a strong card for a Tory party that is every bit as mired in the same issue to be playing. Especially given that your leader has directly played the racist card to get himself elected and that govt ministers, including Johnson, are doing constituency visits to support candidates who have been caught out making directly Islamophobic comments, supporting the openly racist far right agitator Yaxley Lennon (aka Tommy Robinson), retweeting the virulently racist Katie Hopkins etc. All parties have embarrassing candidates but the Tories aren't even disowning blatant racists, they're sending their senior figures out to campaign for them. You might want to stop throwing stones from inside that glass house.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 6, 2019, 12:01:45
A Tory poster from 1964. But there's no history of racism in the Tory party?

Fuck off!

(https://i.imgur.com/7dnrGOx.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Friday, December 6, 2019, 12:23:47
A Tory poster from 1964. But there's no history of racism in the Tory party?

Fuck off!

(https://i.imgur.com/7dnrGOx.jpg)

And I thought it was Reg who was the resident historian.....

How much further back do you want to go back, shall I try and find some posters advertising slaves for sale....

Oh and Fuck Off!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Friday, December 6, 2019, 12:27:56
As they're based on the initial false premise, they also fail for the same reason. Labour does indeed have a massive problem with anti-semitism, but it's really not a strong card for a Tory party that is every bit as mired in the same issue to be playing. Especially given that your leader has directly played the racist card to get himself elected and that govt ministers, including Johnson, are doing constituency visits to support candidates who have been caught out making directly Islamophobic comments, supporting the openly racist far right agitator Yaxley Lennon (aka Tommy Robinson), retweeting the virulently racist Katie Hopkins etc. All parties have embarrassing candidates but the Tories aren't even disowning blatant racists, they're sending their senior figures out to campaign for them. You might want to stop throwing stones from inside that glass house.

I'm not defending the Tories, I'm just trying to bring some balance to what appears to be a forum of Labour apologists...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 6, 2019, 12:28:00

How much further back do you want to go back, shall I try and find some posters advertising slaves for sale....


Feel free, but I don't see what your point would be. Are you still denying there is a history of racism in the Tory party?

Fuck this anyway, I'm going to the pub.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Friday, December 6, 2019, 12:33:33
I'm not defending the Tories, I'm just trying to bring some balance to what appears to be a forum of Labour apologists...

There's very little point trying to point out the balance with some posters, views are already entrenched and it usually ends with a 'fuck this' and a visit to the pub


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, December 6, 2019, 12:36:08
A Tory poster from 1964. But there's no history of racism in the Tory party?

Fuck off!

(https://i.imgur.com/7dnrGOx.jpg)

The Tory party has a long and not particularly distinguished history of racism and anti-Semitism.  

With a few honourable exceptions, like Edward Heath who sacked Enoch Powell for his famous racist speech..... probably no chance of Johnson sacking himself.

It's probably a bit difficult for those not around to get a feel for how popular Powell was.... in polls something like 75% of people agreed with him.  

Labour then passed the Race Relations Act of 1965, but it was felt by many in the party as not doing enough, and was then replaced by the amended 1968 Act....

In the same way as presently the casual racist thinks the Tories may do something about immigration, they know that Labour is decisively a non racist party.

In the 70 election analysts felt that the Tory perception being prepared to "do something" about immigration is what gained them a majority, in much te same way as "get Brexit done" is feeding the fantasies of today's racist


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 6, 2019, 13:31:05
I'm not defending the Tories
Pretty much every one of your posts on here over the last couple of months has been doing precisely that. Or reheating CCHQ briefing notes attacks on Corbyn. Clear astroturfing


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 6, 2019, 13:31:35
Former Conservative PM John Major has advised voters to vote *against* the Tories. That's quite astonishing

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50687225


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Friday, December 6, 2019, 13:33:10
I'm not defending the Tories, I'm just trying to bring some balance to what appears to be a forum of Labour apologists...
Just look forward to the meltdown on here next week if the polls are accurate  :D

I am very much enjoying (and at times cringing at) the usual suspects - it is incredible how wound up grown men are getting at the prospect of a Boris victory.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, December 6, 2019, 13:42:19
I'm not defending the Tories, I'm just trying to bring some balance to what appears to be a forum of Labour apologists...

Despite saying this a while back....

Quote
I am a traditional Tory voter

It's been said many a time but there are few socialists on the TEF, large numbers of Lib Dems, who oppose the Tories on  some aspects of social policy, but like Swinson not austerity, but back them mostly on economic policy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 6, 2019, 13:49:00
Just look forward to the meltdown on here next week if the polls are accurate  :D

I am very much enjoying (and at times cringing at) the usual suspects - it is incredible how wound up grown men are getting at the prospect of a Boris victory.

I think people are already resigned to what's about to happen, so doubt there will be a meltdown.  This time next week, fully expect Johnson to be re-elected.  And half the country will do its best to go nowhere near the news for a fortnight.  Corbyn will have resigned the Labour leadership.  And Swinson will probably hang on a little longer, but she will be old news before long as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 6, 2019, 13:49:17
It's been said many a time but there are few socialists on the TEF, large numbers of Lib Dems, who oppose the Tories on  some aspects of social policy, but like Swinson not austerity, but back them mostly on economic policy.
"Been said" by you. I think only horlock and possibly Ardiles have identified as Lib Dems and as far as I can see it's grossly mischaracterising both of them to suggest they "mostly back" the Tories on economic policy. Spin that Johnson would be proud of.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 6, 2019, 14:05:34
"Been said" by you. I think only horlock and possibly Ardiles have identified as Lib Dems and as far as I can see it's grossly mischaracterising both of them to suggest they "mostly back" the Tories on economic policy. Spin that Johnson would be proud of.

Quite.

1.  Used to vote Lib Dem.  But didn't last time, and won't be this time either.
2.  I think I was sympathetic to the need for some spending restraint in the immediate aftermath of the Financial Crisis about 10 years ago.  But, like many, I've been opposed to the depth & duration of austerity policies for many years since.

Why does everything have to be so black & white?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Friday, December 6, 2019, 14:08:12
Despite saying this a while back....

It's been said many a time but there are few socialists on the TEF, large numbers of Lib Dems, who oppose the Tories on  some aspects of social policy, but like Swinson not austerity, but back them mostly on economic policy.

Quite true, but doesn't mean I'm defending everything they say or do unlike the Momentum brotherhood on here defending St. Jeremy...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Friday, December 6, 2019, 14:12:03
Corbyn will have resigned the Labour leadership.  
Let’s hope so, as it would very much be a blessing in disguise and give Labour the opportunity to find a competent Leader. Hopefully a credible challenge will be possible when the next election comes around - Corbyn is simply unelectable and a huge opportunity has been missed here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Friday, December 6, 2019, 15:11:38
Let’s hope so, as it would very much be a blessing in disguise and give Labour the opportunity to find a competent Leader. Hopefully a credible challenge will be possible when the next election comes around - Corbyn is simply unelectable and a huge opportunity has been missed here.

The leader of the Conservatives is unelectable as well. So where does that leave us?

FWIW I think it'll come down to a coalition next week. The youth vote will save Corbyn.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, December 6, 2019, 15:19:57
Let’s hope so, as it would very much be a blessing in disguise and give Labour the opportunity to find a competent Leader. Hopefully a credible challenge will be possible when the next election comes around - Corbyn is simply unelectable and a huge opportunity has been missed here.

Your prediction has given me more hope than anything else in the whole campaign to date.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, December 6, 2019, 16:15:34
Let’s hope so, as it would very much be a blessing in disguise and give Labour the opportunity to find a competent Leader. Hopefully a credible challenge will be possible when the next election comes around - Corbyn is simply unelectable and a huge opportunity has been missed here.

Who do you predict? Jason Roberts?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, December 6, 2019, 16:22:16
Quite true, but doesn't mean I'm defending everything they say or do unlike the Momentum brotherhood on here defending St. Jeremy...

I think there is a difference in asking for evidence to back up claims, and just defending someone.

FWIW, Labour have no chance with Jeremy in charge, nor did they with Milliband.  People may not like it, but Politics has always had a bit of personality involved when it comes to the top layer.  Thatcher appealed to a group of people as much as she offended many others, Blair played a PR master stroke, both wiped the floor with the opposition.  Corbyn just doesn't reassure enough of the voters that he isn't going to go full left wing nut job on them, no different than if Skinner had ever run the party.  That's not to say they don't have good ideas.

The crazy thing right now, is the Tory leader is just as bad.  Imagine Thatcher being up against Corbyn (oh, that happened already and Foot was crushed).  Even Kinnock struggled, and he was sort of mainstream for Labour.  Probably lost it because of his stupid Sheffield rally where he suddenly looked like a left wing nut job in waiting and the electorate panicked.

The fact people don't like what happens in some of the media with Corbyn is by the by.  Even with plaudits I doubt he gets Labour elected.  Fantastic back bencher I imagine.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, December 6, 2019, 16:38:39
I think it will be a hung parliament.

I can't see the Tories gains outweighing their loses. They'll have a similar tally to last time out, possibly less. I still see the Lib Dems gaining several, despite what the media might be trying to tell us. The  Lib Dems are essentially using the very vast centre ground that has opened up, as opportunity and this will reflect it. Like the hardest of Brexit supporters will vote for Brexit Party, the hardest of Remainers will have an attraction to vote Lib Dem, maybe for the first time. Doesn't matter if some of us think their revocation policy is a lost cause, much sensibility in voter to Party intention went out the window years ago. We only have to look how many votes UKIP received to tell you that. The difference is Lib Dems will make gains because they'll acquire votes where it matters and swing a few Conservative and Labour seats their way. Fact is Conservatives are the only Party who need to gain several seats to stay in Government.

Feels like I'm all in for Lib Dems, it's not the case but just a slightly impartial view. I'm a Green in my heart of heart but voting for them can be difficult in elections that matter. I dislike tactical voting because it isn't really the democracy you're personally voting for.

I dislike how we are made to decide, that we have to like pretty much all of one Parties policies. I may like some of the Conservatives policies (probably not many), or the Lib Dems, Labour, Greens et al. Why is our system all about constant division and allegiance to one Party? Why can't we make all the parties lay down their top 5 detailed and costed policies and vote for the policies that we like, from each one? So we could end up with policies that as a consensus we all agree with more accurately. We could have serious and world leading actions on climate change and our environment, thanks to the Greens. We could have continued world financial institutions and investment banking staying in London thanks to the Tories (yes I said it). We could have fantastic nationalised services in Transport, Hospitals and Utilities thanks to Labour. We could have a UBI and a correctly and legally managed cannabis problem thanks to Lib Dems. We could build a distinct and positive future for future generations. We could even get Brexit sic resolved in the correct way.

If only we could make the parties work together in delivering said combined policies or similar. If only politics could take it's head out of it's arse and drop all this continued deception and lies.

There is a breaking point and regardless of political persuasion the public are getting tired, some are giving up. My mum won't even talk about politics anymore. My Dad (who very much needs the help of the fantastic services of the NHS) has been "media swayed" into being some Tory loving evangelist. Even when I present all the things that are not in his favour or where he would lose out, it is a lead veil of stubborness, riding high on ignorance. I have friends parents who are so invested in Labour that they can't bring themselves to admit the problems Labour has. Even though you can read the admission behind their eyes, they don't want to accept it. Because they really should be smashing this election out the park.

Is it because we are made to pledge allegiances to just one Party, much like we would our favourite sports team, that see's these rivalries worse than any football one? It breeds hatred and division. Politics shouldn't be about that. Not ultimately. Yes we should be free to disagree but when the matters of a nation are left in the hands of several "elected" hundred, by forced allegiance is it any wonder we have come to this political impasse? Until we can vote for individual policies instead of Parties then our system will continue to be extremely flawed and flooded with corruption.

In this important part of history - in which were are living - do we want to be looked back on as the Nation that started a societal collapse that is beyond return?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Friday, December 6, 2019, 16:41:23
I think there is a difference in asking for evidence to back up claims, and just defending someone.

FWIW, Labour have no chance with Jeremy in charge, nor did they with Milliband.  People may not like it, but Politics has always had a bit of personality involved when it comes to the top layer.  Thatcher appealed to a group of people as much as she offended many others, Blair played a PR master stroke, both wiped the floor with the opposition.  Corbyn just doesn't reassure enough of the voters that he isn't going to go full left wing nut job on them, no different than if Skinner had ever run the party.  That's not to say they don't have good ideas.

The crazy thing right now, is the Tory leader is just as bad.  Imagine Thatcher being up against Corbyn (oh, that happened already and Foot was crushed).  Even Kinnock struggled, and he was sort of mainstream for Labour.  Probably lost it because of his stupid Sheffield rally where he suddenly looked like a left wing nut job in waiting and the electorate panicked.

The fact people don't like what happens in some of the media with Corbyn is by the by.  Even with plaudits I doubt he gets Labour elected.  Fantastic back bencher I imagine.

Difficult to disagree with your assessment - it`s certainly not a new theory - left with the feeling why the party persists with the Corbyn option? If there was ever a time to stuff the opposition you would have thought it would of been now....
I am always gob smacked by how both parties seem to be so detached and continue to lie openly about the general state of affairs and to give us a realistic idea of how we might cope with the future - I guess neither have a clue and are just desperate to get in power....
It would be okay if you think this will all go away in a week but no matter what it won`t be doing that....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: moredonboy on Friday, December 6, 2019, 19:37:42
Very rare poster - perhaps a very scarce human being
The contrived anti semitic weapon has seriously hurt Corbyn's status
His support (and the Labour Party's) for the Palestinians has been at the root of this bogus attack
The Israeli authorities have created an apartheid ethnocratic state - the only one in the world
You may say who cares a shit - but peace in the ME is not achievable until the Palestinian problem is resolved
I believe it and JC and the Labour party does too - but it seems the rest of the world doesn't
Talk to me in ten years (if there hasn't been another major ME war again) - I'll probably be dead
The Ottoman Empire lasted 600 years, and jews (not Khazars) christians and muslims lived peaceably together.
We have and are creating a minefield in the ME - as well as seeing the death of thousands of innocent humans mostly muslims.     

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 6, 2019, 20:10:00
I think it will be a Tory minority government propped up by the yellow tories (Lib Dems)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, December 6, 2019, 21:12:47
I think it will be a Tory minority government propped up by the yellow tories (Lib Dems)


Do you think the LDs will go there again FH? Or do you base it on Swinson sensing any sniff of power? Much like Clegg did. Except this time, Swinson is more a wolf in sheep's clothing. Clegg was a naive lamb to the slaughter. All the LDs did at that time was delay the inevitable. The inevitable that we are all seeing and living in now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, December 6, 2019, 21:15:25
I think it will be a Tory minority government propped up by the yellow tories (Lib Dems)


It won’t.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 6, 2019, 21:16:16
Do you think the LDs will go there again FH? Or do you base it on Swinson sensing any sniff of power?

Yes

Yes yes yes.

Yes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 6, 2019, 21:47:56
It won’t.

Wanna put a fiver on it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, December 6, 2019, 22:24:12
Wanna put a fiver on it?

Yep.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 6, 2019, 22:28:24
Yep.

Done

*shakes hand*


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, December 6, 2019, 23:00:29
Out of interest RF, what do you think the outcome will be?

and

To FH and yourself; I'm being a little ignorant here but even though you don't live here do you still have registered addresses that allow you to vote?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, December 6, 2019, 23:11:14
10/1 for a Tory minority if anyone fancies it.

Personally think it will be a comfortable Tory majority


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 00:21:38
5pi [n1
To FH and yourself; I'm being a little ignorant here but even though you don't live here do you still have registered addresses that allow you to vote?

This would have been the first time I voted but I can't; I've been away for more than 15 years.

If I could, I would vote tactically to try and keep the tories out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 08:59:15

I dislike how we are made to decide, that we have to like pretty much all of one Parties policies.....

We could build a distinct and positive future for future generations. We could even get Brexit resolved....

If only we could make the parties work together in delivering said combined policies or similar. .....

There is a breaking point and regardless of political persuasion the public are getting tired, some are giving up. My mum won't even talk about politics anymore......

Labour ..... should be smashing this election out the park.

Is it because we are made to pledge allegiances to just one Party, much like we would our favourite sports team, that sees these rivalries worse than any football one? It breeds hatred and division......

Good post.
 
Think it's a close call between hung parliament and small Tory majority, but only thing I’d really challenge is your proposed solution of putting up a set of policies and letting the electorate vote on them individually.  Danger is that people can then vote for separate policies that are impractical to combine.  E.g. California voting simultaneously to reduce state taxes and increase state spend which practically bankrupted them.
 
But your overarching point that we need to somehow get a government that combines the best policies from across the board is the way to go for me.  The current climate of tribalism, polarised views, and refusal to even consider any alternative viewpoint is turning off vast swathes of people who desperately want to see the return of  (at least an element of) consensus politics.

Future historians could do worse than look at this thread as an example of the problem.  If you deleted the last few hundred pages and replaced them with
 
“Fuck the Tory cunts and all the millions of people who don’t agree with me are either gullible or evil”

then you wouldn’t really be missing much. 

What is particularly depressing is that the vast majority of the comments are focussed on what the posters oppose rather than what they support.

Not intended to be an anti-left criticism.  I’m sure that other football forums with a different dominant political viewpoint have effectively identical threads, just with the facts/opinions/theories selectively culled from a different set of publications.

Like your mum I’m now actively avoiding most of the news.

On Thursday I shall be voting Labour, a party whose key leadership I consider to be either unfit for office (Corbyn) or impressive but misguided (McDonnell).   It beggars belief.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 10:58:41

Future historians could do worse than look at this thread as an example of the problem.  If you deleted the last few hundred pages and replaced them with
 
“Fuck the Tory cunts and all the millions of people who don’t agree with me are either gullible or evil”

then you wouldn’t really be missing much

But isn’t that because the Tory voters on here consistently fail to engage when asked why they think what they think. Apart from Chalkie who wrote well on Brexit but who now seems to have disappeared, the likes of Legends Lounge, Hobodan and Chang etc prefer trolling to actually trying to educate, persuade or inform (or that’s what it comes across like).

I’ve said several times that it baffles me how an ordinary working class person identifies more with Eton-educated millionaires than Corbyn’s Labour. As yet, none who fit that criteria can explain why. So I remain baffled. I’d like to know as maybe that would help Labour win over people who should really be their core vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 11:16:52
Personally, I'm not going to go in to how I'm going to vote, nor am I going to try to 'educate, persuade or inform' anyone - Especially on a Football forum that has a strap line of 25% Football and 80% Bollocks!

What I will say is that I've heard candidates, parties and media spout their bile. I am left intrigued that the recent US election offered up probably the two worst candidates in history and that the UK election seems to be following the same pattern. Should we really be choosing who (and which party) would be the least disastrous for the country? Ideally not!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 11:22:04
But isn’t that because the Tory voters on here consistently fail to engage when asked why they think what they think. Apart from Chalkie who wrote well on Brexit but who now seems to have disappeared, the likes of Legends Lounge, Hobodan and Chang etc prefer trolling to actually trying to educate, persuade or inform (or that’s what it comes across like).

I’ve said several times that it baffles me how an ordinary working class person identifies more with Eton-educated millionaires than Corbyn’s Labour. As yet, none who fit that criteria can explain why. So I remain baffled. I’d like to know as maybe that would help Labour win over people who should really be their core vote.

Historically Chalkies was a Labour man.

The point needs to be made to Bambi, that despite how it seems there is a massive concensus in current UK politics. You can discern this when studying the history of how our system came about. It has always been adversorial, but Parliament came to be seen as away of bringing people together and avoiding the worst excesses of say our Civil War and the French Revolution.

In say the 18th into the 19th Century, there had always been factions who regarded the direct overthrow of the state as the way forward, alongside groups who felt change could be affected by Parliamentary reform, democratic methods etc.

The democrats largely prevailed, but accepted there had to be an element of confrontation in the House, whcih reflected feelings without them spilling out into extra Parliamentary action.

This is where the danger now lies ahead of us... our democracy is in need of another reform to bring it into line with the age of the internet. The contempt that the Tories have shown for Parliament and a massive chunk of the electorate, may very well spill out into more direct action besides ER.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 11:41:26
Anyone know how I can stop receiving Lib Dem guff through my letterbox? I've only been at this address for 6 months, have removed my name from the open roll and registered with the mysterious anti (are they?) marketing bodies/councils/associations. Also got a sticker about junk mail on my letterbox but the fuckers must have bought my details so all the post is addressed to me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 11:42:46
As always I am in a quandry about voting.

I am and always have been a labour voter, not ashamed of that, thats how I was brought up, dad being a shop steward for many many years he passed that down to myself and my sister, who herself is a shop steward at the Council in Swindon.

But the problem is I live in the Yeovil parliamentary seat a staunch Liberal seat right up until the last election when the Conservatives got in with a massive 54% of the vote. People locally took it on themselves to vote away from their traditional Liberal vote after many years of Paddy Ashdown and then David Laws, labour has always been 3rd or even 4th in the polls.

Last election the labour candidate got only 12% of the vote, Liberals got 30%.

I despise Jo Swinson but I absolutely hate Marcus Fysh and the Conservatives and want rid of him and them from the seat.

Usually I vote for the Liberals just to stop the Tories getting another seat, that didn't work last time out, so should I vote with my conscience for Labour or vote for a leader I dislike hugely just to stop (possibly or even probable) another Tory seat?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 11:46:12
Anyone know how I can stop receiving Lib Dem guff through my letterbox? I've only been at this address for 6 months, have removed my name from the open roll and registered with the mysterious anti (are they?) marketing bodies/councils/associations. Also got a sticker about junk mail on my letterbox but the fuckers must have bought my details so all the post is addressed to me.
Get some of that Novichok stuff.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 11:46:26
Anyone know how I can stop receiving Lib Dem guff through my letterbox? I've only been at this address for 6 months, have removed my name from the open roll and registered with the mysterious anti (are they?) marketing bodies/councils/associations. Also got a sticker about junk mail on my letterbox but the fuckers must have bought my details so all the post is addressed to me.
Complain to the MPS Mailing Preference Service if its addressed junk mail from them with a name on, if its to the occupier thats more difficult as the MPS deals on a name and address matching. If its unsolicited unamed mail then you have to approach the poster directly and stress you want no more mail from them.

I worked for 15 years in junk mail and we had requests like this on a daily basis so we always ran a duplicates database match against the MPS database and removed the ones not wanted, most junk mail companies do the same.

Hope this helps.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Richie Wellen-Dowd on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 11:55:15
As always I am in a quandry about voting.

I am and always have been a labour voter, not ashamed of that, thats how I was brought up, dad being a shop steward for many many years he passed that down to myself and my sister, who herself is a shop steward at the Council in Swindon.

But the problem is I live in the Yeovil parliamentary seat a staunch Liberal seat right up until the last election when the Conservatives got in with a massive 54% of the vote. People locally took it on themselves to vote away from their traditional Liberal vote after many years of Paddy Ashdown and then David Laws, labour has always been 3rd or even 4th in the polls.

Last election the labour candidate got only 12% of the vote, Liberals got 30%.

I despise Jo Swinson but I absolutely hate Marcus Fysh and the Conservatives and want rid of him and them from the seat.

Usually I vote for the Liberals just to stop the Tories getting another seat, that didn't work last time out, so should I vote with my conscience for Labour or vote for a leader I dislike hugely just to stop (possibly or even probable) another Tory seat?

This is exactly the position I'm in. I voted Lib Dem last time as they were/are the only party with a chance of unseating the Tories. I regretted it then and I'm even more put off by the Lib Dems this time, so I'll vote Labour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 11:58:38
This is exactly the position I'm in. I voted Lib Dem last time as they were/are the only party with a chance of unseating the Tories. I regretted it then and I'm even more put off by the Lib Dems this time, so I'll vote Labour.
I am erring towards an actual vote too rather than tactical.

I have always, since I have lived down here, voted Liveral precisely to stop the Tories getting the seat, I cannot in all honesty vote for Swinson and it didnt work last time anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 12:17:45
Think I've decided today on a tactical vote. Thinking local has helped, I like what I've seen/heard from Helen Belcher, won't ever vote Tory and Labour have no chance round here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 15:34:13
Three Tory parliamentary candidates being investigated for anti-semitism, including one who retweeted a Nazi slogan in response to a post critical of George Soros, Johnson has taken no action against any of them. I'm sure Mr Lorenzo will be on shortly to denounce the Tories and their appalling racist leader as unfit for office.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 15:39:31
And the UK's diplomat in charge of explaining Brexit in the US has resigned saying she's fed up of "peddling half-truths and lies" on Brexit. The same half truths and lies being told to the British public. Her words

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50693537


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 15:43:27
Three Tory parliamentary candidates being investigated for anti-semitism, including one who retweeted a Nazi slogan in response to a post critical of George Soros, Johnson has taken no action against any of them. I'm sure Mr Lorenzo will be on shortly to denounce the Tories and their appalling racist leader as unfit for office.

But there's only 1 racist party. You just don't want to accept balance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 16:23:50
Just sayin'

(https://i.imgur.com/N3MH51L.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 16:25:39
But there's only 1 racist party. You just don't want to accept balance.
"One racist party, there's only one racist party, one racist paaaartyyyyyy, there's only one racist party". Theme tune for next incarnation of Farage Ltd?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 18:09:28
Just sayin'

(https://i.imgur.com/N3MH51L.png)

That one's a bit dodgy apparently. But they published another 'improved' one that still had labour closing the gap by 2 points.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 18:33:45
That one's a bit dodgy apparently. But they published another 'improved' one that still had labour closing the gap by 2 points.
If the last 2 elections and the referendum have shown us anything it's that all polls are a bit dodgy up until the one on Dec 12th.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, December 7, 2019, 23:19:43
They've also showed that the exit polls @ 10pm are generally spot on.  That's the poll we need to wait for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Sunday, December 8, 2019, 09:06:09
As always I am in a quandry about voting.

I am and always have been a labour voter, not ashamed of that, thats how I was brought up, dad being a shop steward for many many years he passed that down to myself and my sister, who herself is a shop steward at the Council in Swindon.

But the problem is I live in the Yeovil parliamentary seat a staunch Liberal seat right up until the last election when the Conservatives got in with a massive 54% of the vote. People locally took it on themselves to vote away from their traditional Liberal vote after many years of Paddy Ashdown and then David Laws, labour has always been 3rd or even 4th in the polls.

Last election the labour candidate got only 12% of the vote, Liberals got 30%.

I despise Jo Swinson but I absolutely hate Marcus Fysh and the Conservatives and want rid of him and them from the seat.

Usually I vote for the Liberals just to stop the Tories getting another seat, that didn't work last time out, so should I vote with my conscience for Labour or vote for a leader I dislike hugely just to stop (possibly or even probable) another Tory seat?

Hold your nose and vote libdem. This is not the election for sticking with principles.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, December 8, 2019, 13:14:24
As always I am in a quandry about voting.

I am and always have been a labour voter, not ashamed of that, thats how I was brought up, dad being a shop steward for many many years he passed that down to myself and my sister, who herself is a shop steward at the Council in Swindon.

But the problem is I live in the Yeovil parliamentary seat a staunch Liberal seat right up until the last election when the Conservatives got in with a massive 54% of the vote. People locally took it on themselves to vote away from their traditional Liberal vote after many years of Paddy Ashdown and then David Laws, labour has always been 3rd or even 4th in the polls.

Last election the labour candidate got only 12% of the vote, Liberals got 30%.

I despise Jo Swinson but I absolutely hate Marcus Fysh and the Conservatives and want rid of him and them from the seat.

Usually I vote for the Liberals just to stop the Tories getting another seat, that didn't work last time out, so should I vote with my conscience for Labour or vote for a leader I dislike hugely just to stop (possibly or even probable) another Tory seat?
Jo Swinson has about as much chance of becoming PM as I have of growing a womb. So if you vote Lib Dem you're not voting for the leader you dislike, you're voting for their local candidate and to stop the Tories getting the majority they need to continue their destruction of the UK


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Sunday, December 8, 2019, 16:59:26
Read the Sunday Times front page report on the documents apparently leaked from the Labour Party disciplinary unit.

I hesitate to criticise it given that the quotes printed, if true, are pretty horrific. Shades of the BNP in the bad old days.

But, it seems remarkable that this has been leaked 4 days before the election when the documents themselves are not that new.  The perfect amount of time for them to be circulated widely but not nearly enough time for the Labour Party to be able to mount a properly documented rebuttal.

Why would a Labour Party official who genuinely wished the party well at the general election choose this weekend to suddenly develop a conscience?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, December 8, 2019, 18:14:45
Read the Sunday Times front page report on the documents apparently leaked from the Labour Party disciplinary unit.

I hesitate to criticise it given that the quotes printed, if true, are pretty horrific. Shades of the BNP in the bad old days.

But, it seems remarkable that this has been leaked 4 days before the election when the documents themselves are not that new.  The perfect amount of time for them to be circulated widely but not nearly enough time for the Labour Party to be able to mount a properly documented rebuttal.

Why would a Labour Party official who genuinely wished the party well at the general election choose this weekend to suddenly develop a conscience?
The left have always been better at fighting among themselves than focusing on the groups they nominally exist to oppose


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Private Fraser on Sunday, December 8, 2019, 20:50:02
And we get a choice of either Johnson or Corbyn!  :cry:

https://twitter.com/janneriitakorpi/status/1203736946994012160?s=21


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, December 9, 2019, 08:49:21
BALANCE

Because key components of the Brexit deal are definitely comparable to watching the Queen on TV.

(https://i.imgur.com/mW87Ti3.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Monday, December 9, 2019, 09:21:44
BALANCE

Because key components of the Brexit deal are definitely comparable to watching the Queen on TV.

(https://i.imgur.com/mW87Ti3.png)
As I'm sure you realise, the point she's making that they have both deliberately lied and been caught out doing so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, December 9, 2019, 09:23:26
As I'm sure you realise, the point she's making that they have both deliberately lied and been caught out doing so.

Yes

One about key policies on Brexit, and the other about what they watch on the telly.

*It's also quite typical of her. She will be happy to tweet negative stuff about Corbyn and mention nobody else but, when it comes to posting negative stuff about Boris, she ends with *and Corbyn something*.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Monday, December 9, 2019, 09:56:06
Yes the subject matter is vastly different in importance but he was asked a question, his instinctive reaction was to lie because he didn’t want to tell the truth.

We know Boris lies, it’s in his nature. Saint Jezza lies as well


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, December 9, 2019, 09:56:58
Postal voted, yes I voted Lib Dems for tactical reasons.

It's probably what I would have done too, but I wouldn't have been happy about it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Monday, December 9, 2019, 10:02:15
It's probably what I would have done too, but I wouldn't have been happy about it!
No it was difficult, me and the wife and our 2 daughters did exactly the same, under duress.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Monday, December 9, 2019, 10:38:37
Yes the subject matter is vastly different in importance but he was asked a question, his instinctive reaction was to lie because he didn’t want to tell the truth.

We know Boris lies, it’s in his nature. Saint Jezza lies as well

That's the problem, if Jezza had been confident enough to have just said he doesnt sit down and watch at 15:00, which i suspect the majority of people dont, then he'd have been fine.

Why make up a story,



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, December 9, 2019, 11:02:38
Been waiting for this one. It's not looking good at all. I guess we'll finally see if Project Fear was true or not.

https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1203826821361471500/photo/1


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, December 9, 2019, 11:22:25
Been waiting for this one. It's not looking good at all. I guess we'll finally see if Project Fear was true or not.

https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1203826821361471500/photo/1

According to survation, the labour drop is likely to be down to tactical voting, so that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Still not looking good, though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, December 9, 2019, 11:51:12
It's going to be a tough week I fear. It won't make much difference in the grand scheme of things, but tactical voting managing to remove Raab and IDS would provide a silver lining to an otherwise turd-shaped cloud.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, December 9, 2019, 11:57:11
Been waiting for this one. It's not looking good at all. I guess we'll finally see if Project Fear was true or not.

https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1203826821361471500/photo/1

The comments to that tweet too. What a horrible and selfish nation we now are. Some truly vile people. What a time to be alive eh..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 9, 2019, 12:08:06
Twas the night before Christmas, and all through the nation,
There was misery, poverty and great deprivation
Some stockings were empty, some fridges were bare,
The heating turned off, little money to spare.

Boris Johnson was cosy, a quaffing champagne,
Cognac and Port so he’s feeling no pain,
Stuffing his chops on goose flesh and gammon,
Caviar, Stilton and the finest smoked salmon.

The homeless are shivering in cardboard containers
Ex-Servicemen, youngsters, both Leave and Remainers
The nurses and doctors all still searching for beds
With a shortage of staff, of money and meds

The Moggs singing carols with moguls and bankers,
Hedge funders, financiers and various w*nkers
Admiring his baubles and pulling his crackers,
Rejoicing that he's got us all by the knackers.

Your Gran's in the corridor, still on the trolley
While the Chancellors counting the last of his lolly
And Grandad’s in pieces, stemming his tears
Though they’ve paid their dues these past sixty years

But hey, Goves on the sherry and is quite off his tits
While his missus is battered and doing the splits
And Drunken Smith is a singing along with the Pogues
With the rest of the mob and a few Russian rogues

And the kids who are dreaming of gifts in the morning
Won’t get them- their benefits were stopped without warning
While those whose dosh is in off-shore accounts
Will be rubbing their hands as the grand total mounts

And the Waspi woman alone in her kitchen
Has long given up on Dancer and Blitzen
She was robbed of her pension, they don’t give a shite
That she’s freezing and hungry on Christmas Eve night

And now, here’s the end of my last festive story


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, December 9, 2019, 14:39:19
ITV reporter tried to get Johnson to look at this picture of a 4 year old boy with pneumonia lying on coats on the floor of Leeds General because there were no beds available:

(https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article21053083.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/0_PAY_JS200800173.jpg)

Johnson ignored the question, snatched  the reporter's phone and put it in his pocket. NHS, safe in their hands

https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1204018593656180736


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 9, 2019, 15:19:19
ITV reporter tried to get Johnson to look at this picture of a 4 year old boy with pneumonia lying on coats on the floor of Leeds General because there were no beds available:

(https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article21053083.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/0_PAY_JS200800173.jpg)

Johnson ignored the question, snatched  the reporter's phone and put it in his pocket. NHS, safe in their hands

https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1204018593656180736

Great Britain, my arse, the 5th richest economy in the world is putting poorly little boys on the hospital floor, has a large part of the population unable to feed themselves, disabled people committing suicide because of the punitive discriminatory measures imposed on them, yet people vote not based upon what is happening but instead on some manner of imaginary bogey man they have been groomed to believe exists.

Do I think Corbyn would be a good PM, no, I don't actually think any of our party leaders would be a good PM, however IMO Corbyn is less likely to (deliberately) inflect misery, hurt and hatred upon large swathes of the most needy that the government is supposed to be protecting, he is less likely to bugger up my daughters education or her chances of getting (and mine of retaining) a job.

We as a nation should be embarrassed at what this country has become, sadly however, we seem intent on just voting to perpetuate the hate and misery, you reap what you sow. Many like to make much of learning from history, perhaps rather than looking back to the 30's, 40's and 70's to justify a laboured point a look at the 2010's might be more pertinent!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, December 9, 2019, 15:33:36
Another poll:

(https://i.imgur.com/evTIuzc.png)

That last one from survation was a small poll they did for GMB. A 'snapshot' (their words). I'd read less into that one than one usually should for polls.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, December 9, 2019, 15:42:59
in my local constituency - Battersea, I couldn't even tell you who is the Tory candidate such is their seemingly can't be arsed attitude around here. I have received and seen plenty of Labour presence for Marsha de Cordova who looks favourite to retain her seat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, December 9, 2019, 16:25:00
Another poll:

(https://i.imgur.com/evTIuzc.png)

That last one from survation was a small poll they did for GMB. A 'snapshot' (their words). I'd read less into that one than one usually should for polls.

I want this to be true. If Labour can get 35/36% we're looking at another hung parliament. Everything depends on the tactical votes now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 9, 2019, 16:44:39
Only seems to be in The Indy.... for now.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-book-jews-control-media-general-election-a9239346.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, December 9, 2019, 16:49:44
£ closing in on 1.19 v € & 1.31 v $ might be an idea to get your currency now just in case ‘Oh Jeremy Corbyn’ gets in. You’ll see a very quick reversal if he does.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Monday, December 9, 2019, 17:10:59
£ closing in on 1.19 v € & 1.31 v $ might be an idea to get your currency now just in case ‘Oh Jeremy Corbyn’ gets in. You’ll see a very quick reversal if he does.

Good try, but as you'll see from this EUR > GBP chart (the lower the index, the higher the GBP value), sterling was far stronger against the euro before 2010. It was recovering a bit until your lot tanked it again when you announced the Brexit referendum in 2015. Great work lads.
https://www.macrotrends.net/2553/euro-british-pound-exchange-rate-historical-chart

(https://www.macrotrends.net/assets/images/thumbnails/mt/2554-1465064735.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, December 9, 2019, 17:15:58
£ closing in on 1.19 v € & 1.31 v $ might be an idea to get your currency now just in case ‘Oh Jeremy Corbyn’ gets in. You’ll see a very quick reversal if he does.

Your grand. I got mine before the Brexit vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 9, 2019, 17:21:02
Postal voted, yes I voted Lib Dems for tactical reasons.

I hope plenty of Labour voters do that round here as there was only 700 odd votes in it last time round and Labour were a bloody country mile behind, yet they have been quite bullish round here where a Labour vote basically is a Tory one.

Rather peculiarly I was accosted in the street on the school run by Tim Farron this morning (I nhad my daughter with me so he probably thought I was OK), he seems to be taking it very seriously whilst the Tory doesn't even live in the constituency and is an arse with a bit of social media history!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 9, 2019, 17:21:50
£ closing in on 1.19 v € & 1.31 v $ might be an idea to get your currency now just in case ‘Oh Jeremy Corbyn’ gets in. You’ll see a very quick reversal if he does.
Not sure the CBI agree with you on that analysis...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, December 9, 2019, 17:30:54
Great Britain, my arse, the 5th richest economy in the world is putting poorly little boys on the hospital floor, has a large part of the population unable to feed themselves, disabled people committing suicide because of the punitive discriminatory measures imposed on them, yet people vote not based upon what is happening but instead on some manner of imaginary bogey man they have been groomed to believe exists.

Do I think Corbyn would be a good PM, no, I don't actually think any of our party leaders would be a good PM, however IMO Corbyn is less likely to (deliberately) inflect misery, hurt and hatred upon large swathes of the most needy that the government is supposed to be protecting, he is less likely to bugger up my daughters education or her chances of getting (and mine of retaining) a job.

We as a nation should be embarrassed at what this country has become, sadly however, we seem intent on just voting to perpetuate the hate and misery, you reap what you sow. Many like to make much of learning from history, perhaps rather than looking back to the 30's, 40's and 70's to justify a laboured point a look at the 2010's might be more pertinent!
Shameful isn't it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Monday, December 9, 2019, 17:56:25
Anyone asked the hospital what the boy was doing lying in the corridor?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Monday, December 9, 2019, 18:26:13
Corbyn visits Nailsworth, he's an admirer and now has a shirt and scarf.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, December 9, 2019, 18:29:35
Anyone asked the hospital what the boy was doing lying in the corridor?
Yes, several journalists have.He was being treated on the floor for 4hours because there were no beds or even trolleys.Even when they eventually found a trolley for him, he was stuck on that in the corridor for a further 5 hours before a bed was available


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Monday, December 9, 2019, 19:41:33
Not sure the CBI agree with you on that analysis...

Fuck business. Can't think who said that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Monday, December 9, 2019, 19:51:21
I don't know how to post a vid, but click on this.  Can't really argue with this, not a single piece of "fake news" here....!

https://www.facebook.com/KillingBritain/videos/829279770826134/





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, December 9, 2019, 20:27:48
Not sure the CBI agree with you on that analysis...

They have their opinion I have mine.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Monday, December 9, 2019, 21:11:29
Yes, several journalists have.He was being treated on the floor for 4hours because there were no beds or even trolleys.Even when they eventually found a trolley for him, he was stuck on that in the corridor for a further 5 hours before a bed was available

Very interesting. A good friend of mine is a senior nursing sister at Leeds Hospital - the boy shown on the floor by the media was in fact put there by his mother who then took photos on her mobile phone and uploaded it to media outlets before he climbed back onto his trolley. He was on a hospital trolley in the paediatric A&E having been seen within 20 minutes. I am a nurse myself and am so pissed off with fake news, yes the NHS is a mess mainly caused by people misusing it and lack of elderly care. Think of the nurses and Doctors who are doing their jobs instead of constantly slagging them off. another Momentum
Propaganda story. Disgraceful

Taken from another site.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, December 9, 2019, 21:32:04
Very interesting. A good friend of mine is a senior nursing sister at Leeds Hospital - the boy shown on the floor by the media was in fact put there by his mother who then took photos on her mobile phone and uploaded it to media outlets before he climbed back onto his trolley. He was on a hospital trolley in the paediatric A&E having been seen within 20 minutes. I am a nurse myself and am so pissed off with fake news, yes the NHS is a mess mainly caused by people misusing it and lack of elderly care. Think of the nurses and Doctors who are doing their jobs instead of constantly slagging them off. another Momentum
Propaganda story. Disgraceful

Taken from another site.

If this is true then that is a fucking disgrace. However, there is a lot at stake and there sadly will be all sorts of shit flying around from all sides.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Monday, December 9, 2019, 21:32:35
Very interesting. A good friend of mine is a senior nursing sister at Leeds Hospital - the boy shown on the floor by the media was in fact put there by his mother who then took photos on her mobile phone and uploaded it to media outlets before he climbed back onto his trolley. He was on a hospital trolley in the paediatric A&E having been seen within 20 minutes. I am a nurse myself and am so pissed off with fake news, yes the NHS is a mess mainly caused by people misusing it and lack of elderly care. Think of the nurses and Doctors who are doing their jobs instead of constantly slagging them off. another Momentum
Propaganda story. Disgraceful

Taken from another site.



Shhhhhhh...!! The momentum brothers on here won't be happy..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, December 9, 2019, 21:33:39
Apparently, his mother did put him on the floor and did take the photo. She has said so herself. She put him on the floor because he wanted to lay down but there were no beds.

The hospital has admitted this.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-50713236

Quote
Dr Yvette Oade, chief medical officer at Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust, said: "Our hospitals are extremely busy at the moment and we are very sorry that Jack's family had a long wait in our Emergency Department."

She added: "We are extremely sorry that there were only chairs available in the treatment room, and no bed. This falls below our usual high standards, and for this we would like to sincerely apologise to Jack and his family."

Is the Chief Medical Officer lying?

yes the NHS is a mess mainly caused by people misusing it and lack of elderly care.

Nothing to do with underfunding? It's the fault of the 'poor' people using it?

Damn peasants.

Think of the nurses and Doctors who are doing their jobs instead of constantly slagging them off. another Momentum
Propaganda story. Disgraceful

Very, very few people are 'slagging off' the NHS staff. Most recognise the real reason for the problem, the only people I've seen blaming the staff are tories trying to shift the blame.

I think that guy on the 'other site' is full of it.







Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Riddick on Monday, December 9, 2019, 21:40:07
Angela Rayner is fucking annoying!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 9, 2019, 21:54:30
can't disagree


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Monday, December 9, 2019, 22:01:31
Angela Rayner is fucking annoying!
She, like all politicians these days, revels in talking over everyone. That QT was a disgrace and showed everything bad in the country. Really easy to try to force your opinions on people and shout down those against you. Not so easy to find common ground and make a positive contribution.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Monday, December 9, 2019, 22:05:25
Is the Chief Medical Officer lying?
Actually I’d prefer to believe the un-named source from the un-named website.

There is no ‘Leeds Hospital’ by the way, just like no-one calls the GWH ‘Swindon Hospital’.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, December 9, 2019, 22:09:07
Actually I’d prefer to believe the un-named source from the un-named website.


Well, it was on the internet so it must be true.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, December 9, 2019, 22:29:04
Also from the chief medical officer at the hospital:

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/people/it-was-chaos-shocking-photo-shows-leeds-four-year-old-suspected-pneumonia-forced-sleep-floor-lgi-due-lack-beds-1334909

Quote
Within four hours a decision was made to admit Jack to our Children’s Assessment and Treatment (CAT) Unit for further monitoring overnight. Unfortunately, the unit was also experiencing exceptionally high levels of demand which meant that Jack was required to wait in the clinical treatment room in the Paediatric Emergency Department until a bed became available. Jack was admitted to the CAT Unit later that evening and was discharged home the following morning after a medical review.

The mother was telling the truth - or the hospital's chief medical officer is lying.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 05:15:21
I can't believe no one on here has mentioned the absolute shit show of lies that Kuenssberg was upto last night. Followed up by the BBC publishing her tweet as factual evidence.

I am of course referring to the "punch" that never was. How she isn't culpable for her actions as a Political lead journalist, is beyond.

Even after she had been found to be lying she still continued to add spin to reflect more positively towards the Tories with the tweet;

"Have video from Hancock leaving Leeds General just come through so you can see for yourself - doesn’t look like punch thrown, rather, one of Tory team walks into protestor’s arm, pretty grim encounter"

She always has to tail off with some kind of dig. No it was not a grim encounter at all. A grim encounter is that in 2019 there are not enough beds in our fucking NHS.

Kuenssberg continues, in a bid to make the 'protest' appear much more intimidating. This after already spewing bullshit;

"Tiny number of protestors can make a lot of noise! You can hear them protesting about NHS underfunding, but then shouting, 'we do not want you in this city, we do not want you in this country"

Yet apparently according to her beforehand there were swathes of protestors. I know she's fucking awful but this went beyond in terms of journalism. It isn't one mistake. She is the senior political reporter, there are multiple inaccuracies in her initial tweet, she has created a diversionary story and the fact the BBC also ran it at 6pm with zero verification or establishing the facts (shock). It was then highly embarrassing that West Yorkshire Police had received no reports about any abuse and were looking to confirm.

I'm awaiting the BBC bulletin where they issue an apology for running that story. They had opportunity at 10pm to make an admission...I feel I am going to still be waiting. As for Kuenssberg? Well it's high time she did the honorable thing and stepped aside.  It won't happen though. We're fucked.

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1204091610843226112?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 07:49:47
Must be just another mistake.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 09:06:00
Stories claiming the boy on the hospital floor was staged have been exposed as faked.

Social media is a dangerous weapon for anybody that knows how to use it as such. Despite the 'staged' story being exposed as fake, the damage is already done. Too many people are unwilling/unable to apply critical thought, especially when the stories appeal to their own bias. Too many people refuse to accept it as fake despite it being demonstrated that it is not genuine.

In short, too many people are gullible fuckwits, and nefarious agents are able to capitalise on their fuckwittery.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 09:31:12
Stories claiming the boy on the hospital floor was staged have been exposed as faked.

Social media is a dangerous weapon for anybody that knows how to use it as such. Despite the 'staged' story being exposed as fake, the damage is already done. Too many people are unwilling/unable to apply critical thought, especially when the stories appeal to their own bias. Too many people refuse to accept it as fake despite it being demonstrated that it is not genuine.

In short, too many people are gullible fuckwits, and nefarious agents are able to capitalise on their fuckwittery.

Buckland has been wheeled out to defend Johnson, which he's quite happy to do, apparently nicking someone's phone is normal behaviour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 09:37:17
Very interesting. A good friend of mine is a senior nursing sister at Leeds Hospital - the boy shown on the floor by the media was in fact put there by his mother who then took photos on her mobile phone and uploaded it to media outlets before he climbed back onto his trolley. He was on a hospital trolley in the paediatric A&E having been seen within 20 minutes. I am a nurse myself and am so pissed off with fake news, yes the NHS is a mess mainly caused by people misusing it and lack of elderly care. Think of the nurses and Doctors who are doing their jobs instead of constantly slagging them off. another Momentum
Propaganda story. Disgraceful

Taken from another site.


Yes, it's from the CCHQ spambots on Twitter. Apparently dozens of people not only have the same friend at "Leeds Hospital" (it's Leeds General Infirmary which a "good friend" would know), but also chose to post about it on Twitter at the same time using exactly the same words. Surprised you fell for that

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELYXpVvWkAAwcVd?format=jpg&name=small)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 09:40:04
I'm awaiting the BBC bulletin where they issue an apology for running that story. They had opportunity at 10pm to make an admission...I feel I am going to still be waiting. As for Kuenssberg? Well it's high time she did the honorable thing and stepped aside.  It won't happen though. We're fucked.
They interviewed her on Today this morning and didn't even mention her role in spreading fake propaganda, much less ask her to explain herself, despite referencing the fake punch story earlier in the news.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 09:42:19
Yes, it's from the CCHQ spambots on Twitter. Apparently dozens of people not only have the same friend at "Leeds Hospital" (it's Leeds General Infirmary which a "good friend" would know), but also chose to post about it on Twitter at the same time using exactly the same words. Surprised you fell for that

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELYXpVvWkAAwcVd?format=jpg&name=small)

Also note that each person with the 'friend' also links the lie to various well known influencers to ensure its get spread far and wide.

I wish I had so many 'good friends'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 09:44:03
They have their opinion I have mine.

Bugger now whose opinion holds more weight a national body respecting business or a random bloke on the internet still peddling conspiracy theories about Reg...  :hmmm: :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 09:45:44
Surprised you fell for that


Falling for it is one thing. We've all been caught out from time to time when we let our guard drop. I know I have.

For me, the real problem is those that continue to believe this shit AFTER it has been exposed as a fake. According to some, you are nothing but a labour activist if you point out that the story is, indeed, not true. (Which it demonstrably isn't)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 09:47:57

I am of course referring to the "punch" that never was. How she isn't culpable for her actions as a Political lead journalist, is beyond.


I think you are making the mistake of confusing journalist with propagandist which she (and to be fair the vast majority of main stream 'journalists' have become, Peston buggered up equally badly yesterday. Thing is she has been seriously bullshitted by senior Tory sources to run the story so why isn't she naming them?

In the case of LK I would not be surprised to see her leading the Tory press office after they win the election, especially as Johnson is again hinting at going after the BBC once he has his feet under the table properly as no.10.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 09:54:24
Falling for it is one thing. We've all been caught out from time to time when we let our guard drop. I know I have.

For me, the real problem is those that continue to believe this shit AFTER it has been exposed as a fake. According to some, you are nothing but a labour activist if you point out that the story is, indeed, not true. (Which it demonstrably isn't)
It's standard Cummings "throwing a dead cat on the table" stuff, along with punchgate. Doesn't matter that it's demonstrably a lie, let's get everyone talking about the fake meta-news instead of focusing on the fact that in the 5th richest country in the world a 4 year old child with pneumonia was left lying on the floor hooked up to tubes for hours because they couldn't even find a trolley for him, much less a bed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 10:32:41
As pointed out on Twitter...

The Tories have already employed their 50,000 new nurses. Sadly they are all fake ones on twitter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 10:36:21
As pointed out on Twitter...

The Tories have already employed their 50,000 new nurses. Sadly they are all fake ones on twitter.

20,000 of those are already in he NHS but were planning to leave before being recruited by Cummings for propaganda work, so are now considered new.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 10:42:25
I definitely want out of funding the BBC now. I don't wish to contribute to their blatant biased reporting etc. They can go commercial as far as I'm concerned. Fuck em.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 10:44:46
I'm waiting for Rob Burley to come along and belittle us all again. What silly little people we are for holding concerns over journalistic integrity at the BBC.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 10:46:51
You really couldn't make this up for its sheer dreadfulness and the irony in choosing this for Johnson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj-YK3JJCIU&feature=emb_logo

1. The character Johnson is a parody of, in the film ends up as just about the only no one loves at the end;
2. The scene relates to a man who desperately wants to cop off with his best mates missus!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 10:53:43
Ah our fearless crusading impartial media...

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1200328947420008448.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 10:55:47
You really couldn't make this up for its sheer dreadfulness and the irony in choosing this for Johnson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj-YK3JJCIU&feature=emb_logo

1. The character Johnson is a parody of, in the film ends up as just about the only no one loves at the end;
2. The scene relates to a man who desperately wants to cop off with his best mates missus!
It's not even his idea, completely ripped off a Labour MP
https://twitter.com/DrRosena/status/1197884965444366337


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 11:01:38
It's standard Cummings "throwing a dead cat on the table" stuff, along with punchgate. Doesn't matter that it's demonstrably a lie, let's get everyone talking about the fake meta-news instead of focusing on the fact that in the 5th richest country in the world a 4 year old child with pneumonia was left lying on the floor hooked up to tubes for hours because they couldn't even find a trolley for him, much less a bed.

Response from the Editor of the Yorkshire Post (who actually broke the story, despite the Mirror suggesting it was an exclusive), proper journalists in the north....

https://twitter.com/JayMitchinson/status/1204344653174181888


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 11:01:47
I definitely want out of funding the BBC now. I don't wish to contribute to their blatant biased reporting etc. They can go commercial as far as I'm concerned. Fuck em.
Said already in this thread, the hard right of the Tories have wanted to scrap the BBC for ages, egged on by the Mail and the Murdoch press. One of the effects of their subverting of the BBC's political reporting to be part of the propaganda wing of CCHQ is to strip away those who would normally have been inclined to defend the BBC when they do decide to go for it. Just because Laura K et al have been willing participants in that doesn't undermine the value of the impartial national broadcaster we used to have. In a world where journalism is increasingly owned by a handful of billionaires, we need an impartial national broadcaster as a counterweight more than ever. The BBC, with some honourable exceptions, have failed very badly at that in this election. The answer is to fight to restore the BBC's impartiality not to go along with the Rees-Moggs' and the Dacres' plans to get rid of it altogether.  That just allows the rightwing billionaires to tighten their control on the news agenda


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 11:12:31
Said already in this thread, the hard right of the Tories have wanted to scrap the BBC for ages, egged on by the Mail and the Murdoch press. One of the effects of their subverting of the BBC's political reporting to be part of the propaganda wing of CCHQ is to strip away those who would normally have been inclined to defend the BBC when they do decide to go for it. Just because Laura K et al have been willing participants in that doesn't undermine the value of the impartial national broadcaster we used to have. In a world where journalism is increasingly owned by a handful of billionaires, we need an impartial national broadcaster as a counterweight more than ever. The BBC, with some honourable exceptions, have failed very badly at that in this election. The answer is to fight to restore the BBC's impartiality not to go along with the Rees-Moggs' and the Dacres' plans to get rid of it altogether.  That just allows the rightwing billionaires to tighten their control on the news agenda

Buuuttt the other public owned TV channel has done a rather good job so it can be done, just the BBC for whatever reason has failed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 11:15:31
Buuuttt the other public owned TV channel has done a rather good job so it can be done, just the BBC for whatever reason has failed.
Completely agree. The BBC has failed and failed badly. But going along with the rightwing press and Tories wanting to scrap it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 11:21:57
It needs a thorough, independent review.

Which won't happen if the tories are elected - unless they are looking for excuses to shut it down. Ironic really, the BBC backed the horse that might well want to put them out of existence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 11:26:05
It needs a thorough, independent review.

Which won't happen if the tories are elected - unless they are looking for excuses to shut it down. Ironic really, the BBC backed the horse that might well want to put them out of existence.
This is precisely the point I was trying to make, wonder if some of this has been done deliberately, making the BBC's political reporting dept the author of the corporation's overall downfall?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 11:31:02
(Sort of) on the topic of journalism and politics, I thought this a fascinating and depressing piece from George Monbiot - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/10/break-embargo-expose-press-lies-labour

the tl;dr is that he's breaking an embargo to disclose that IPSO (press complaints) have found against the Daily Mail but aren't allowing that to be published until after the election. The particular case in question is interesting, but the key part for me is this: "The rewards for political lying are massive: they include winning referendums and elections. The penalties are either nonexistent or tiny."

And that's the rub. You basically have to be stupid, or stupidly honourable, to not lie and misrepresent your opponents in politics under the current systems. It's not even a just-the-right-wing thing, although the print press being RW dominant means they're a whole lot more effective, plenty of Corbynite online press have got the hang of this.

Just about everyone will say we want truth and honest from our politicians and journalists, whatever our political position, but the incentives seem to be stacked so far the other way that I can't really say I'm surprised by any individuals wanting to be the first to get a story out or the most RTs, rather than really getting to the true story.

All a bit depressing really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 11:31:22
This is precisely the point I was trying to make, wonder if some of this has been done deliberately, making the BBC's political reporting dept the author of the corporation's overall downfall?

Quite.

The tories are likely to get some support from people over plans to decriminalise not paying the licence, and they will get that support because...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 11:35:28

Just about everyone will say we want truth and honest from our politicians and journalists, whatever our political position,

I'm really not so sure.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 11:54:24
I'm really not so sure.

Agreed. Clearly, for some, winning takes precedence over everything else. And that includes honesty and integrity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 11:57:43
Ah our fearless crusading impartial media...

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1200328947420008448.html
A very interesting angle on the print media by a junior doctor.

I read some of that doctor's other tweets and, being more pro Remain than pro any particular party, I was interested in his perspective on how a US trade deal will likely operate on the NHS.

We all know (even those who deny it) that the NHS will be paying more for drugs post US trade deal.

Believe me, not Johnson ffs, that parts (the lucrative, easy parts) of the NHS will be "for sale" and there will be cases where the NHS and local authorities are sued by disappointed US health service suppliers.  UK taxpayers to cough up.

The UK will not be in any position to walk away from a US trade deal inc. US demands for Pharma and healthcare etc.  It will go through and we will be lied to again.  Obviously.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 12:10:46
(Sort of) on the topic of journalism and politics, I thought this a fascinating and depressing piece from George Monbiot - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/10/break-embargo-expose-press-lies-labour

the tl;dr is that he's breaking an embargo to disclose that IPSO (press complaints) have found against the Daily Mail but aren't allowing that to be published until after the election. The particular case in question is interesting, but the key part for me is this: "The rewards for political lying are massive: they include winning referendums and elections. The penalties are either nonexistent or tiny."

And that's the rub. You basically have to be stupid, or stupidly honourable, to not lie and misrepresent your opponents in politics under the current systems. It's not even a just-the-right-wing thing, although the print press being RW dominant means they're a whole lot more effective, plenty of Corbynite online press have got the hang of this.

Just about everyone will say we want truth and honest from our politicians and journalists, whatever our political position, but the incentives seem to be stacked so far the other way that I can't really say I'm surprised by any individuals wanting to be the first to get a story out or the most RTs, rather than really getting to the true story.

All a bit depressing really.
It's as if political debate based on differing interpretations of facts is now pointless.  It's simply about lying, lying and lying again and more effectively and widely than the opposition.

It may be your job to win referenda and elections but the ultimate responsibility has to "lie" with the people who accept being lied to and who continue to support the liars.

You are correctly fair and objective, in pointing out that there is lying on all sides.  But "fair" and "objective" have become  as valuable as the Venezuelan peso. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 12:15:56
Now, I’m reading that that pic of the lad on the floor at Leeds Hospital was ‘staged’ by his mother who is a Labour activist.

Puts into sharp focus all the truths, half-truths and downright lies people are being asked to fathom out for themselves.

Most people end up believing what they want to believe - irrespective of the truth.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 12:17:36
Now, I’m reading that that pic of the lad on the floor at Leeds Hospital was ‘staged’ by his mother who is a Labour activist.

Puts into sharp focus all the truths, half-truths and downright lies people are being asked to fathom out for themselves.

Most people end up believing what they want to believe - irrespective of the truth.

You were reading a fake story.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/dec/10/woman-says-account-hacked-to-post-fake-story-about-hospital-boy


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 12:19:54
Reminds me of when they said Corbyn sitting on a train floor was staged. Lies of course...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 12:23:58
Now, I’m reading that that pic of the lad on the floor at Leeds Hospital was ‘staged’ by his mother who is a Labour activist.
That's just outright lies. See my post from earlier (quoted below to save you scrolling back through several pages)

The fact that the Tories seek to respond to this story not by doing everything they can to put things right, but by smearing the Mum with lies perpetrated by spambots shows the depths to which they've sunk

Yes, it's from the CCHQ spambots on Twitter. Apparently dozens of people not only have the same friend at "Leeds Hospital" (it's Leeds General Infirmary which a "good friend" would know), but also chose to post about it on Twitter at the same time using exactly the same words. Surprised you fell for that

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELYXpVvWkAAwcVd?format=jpg&name=small)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 12:27:28
Now, I’m reading that that pic of the lad on the floor at Leeds Hospital was ‘staged’ by his mother who is a Labour activist.

Puts into sharp focus all the truths, half-truths and downright lies people are being asked to fathom out for themselves.

Most people end up believing what they want to believe - irrespective of the truth.

And before you start, nobody was punched by a Labour activist either!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 12:28:51
Spare a thought for Jonathan Ashworth.  Until today, he probably had a shot at replacing Corbyn after the election.  Not any more.

Labour's ineptitude - right from the top down - has been astonishing this election.  If/when the Tories win their 4th successive term, they'll need to take a long, hard look at themselves and ask how they allowed it to happen.  If you can't beat a shower like this after a decade in office, you might as well pack up & go home for good.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 12:31:55
You were reading a fake story.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/dec/10/woman-says-account-hacked-to-post-fake-story-about-hospital-boy

But that’s my point. It doesn’t really matter whether it was staged or not people will believe whichever side of the story they want to.

You only have to listen to the ‘people in the street’ when asked for an opinion on even the least testing political question. The universal answer is ‘I don’t really know’. People are, generally, too stupid to differentiate between political parties which is why they are swayed by even the most blatant lies.

Why is it that political advertisements are not subject to the same rules as conventional, consumer advertisements?

The truth-in-advertising rule requires advertisers to be honest about their products or services. Online advertising and marketing may not include deception or false claims about what the product or service can provide. This rule also requires that the company advertising the product or service can prove the claims it makes about the product or service. Finally, under this rule, the advertisement or marketing effort cannot be unfair.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 12:32:25
Spare a thought for Jonathan Ashworth.  Until today, he probably had a shot at replacing Corbyn after the election.  Not any more.

I actually feel quite bad for Ashworth - if he really has been friends with the guy for a while and then he's gone and leaked a private chat to Guido then that is spectacularly cunty.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 12:35:40
That's just outright lies. See my post from earlier (quoted below to save you scrolling back through several pages)

The fact that the Tories seek to respond to this story not by doing everything they can to put things right, but by smearing the Mum with lies perpetrated by spambots shows the depths to which they've sunk


According to a sleuth on twitter, the son of the woman who's account it originated from is friends with Hancock on facebook. (The woman is now claiming her account was hacked).

Make of that what you will. It might be false, or it might be true, and it doesn't necessarily mean a thing if it is true. (Although it would be quite a coincidence).



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 12:37:41
What the picture that was confirmed by the hospital?  

The one that a stream of bots have waged a war against after sending johnson out to talk about it failed.  And sending Hancock failed despite making up a story about an army of paid labour activists ending with a tory being punched was proved not to be the dead cat to get out of it.  Reported as fact then inconvenient stuff like the truth and video of the event proved to be wrong.

But its ok as the big players in the media have repeated it after being told by tory sources it had happened giving it a lovely sheen of veracity.  Obviously it would be stupid to actually check before sending stuff out.  I mean I rewrite stuff several times before sending it, major journalists don't feel they need to.

The one the nurse who was not a nurse has said was not true and she's been hacked?

'I was hacked. I am not a nurse and I certainly don’t know anyone in Leeds,” the woman told the Guardian. “I’ve had to delete everything as I have had death threats to myself and my children.”

The depths that are being plumbed in this election is truly horrific.  And in these last 2 days nothing can be held to account as their isn't time, so carte blanche for the lies, smears and libel chaps.  If its proved that we've been lying grasping venal cunts after the election it doesnt matter, we'll get a slap on the wrist and a fine but its worth it, we can brazen it out.

This is an interesting thread about the trolls and the bots kicking in

https://twitter.com/marcowenjones/status/1204183081009262592

But even then Ive no idea if any of it is true or right.  It appeals to my opinions but I don't know whats truth anymore.  Lets face it thats been the whole point of social media war on reality.

It's so so depressing.  Im fairly sure that at some point people sought positions in government to help people and improve society.  Thats all gone.  Lets just keep pumping the world for our own means until it disappears into nothingness.  We wont be alive to see it.

Im off for a little cry for a couple of days.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 12:44:59
What the picture that was confirmed by the hospital?  

The one that a stream of bots have waged a war against after sending johnson out to talk about it failed.  And sending Hancock failed despite making up a story about an army of paid labour activists ending with a tory being punched was proved not to be the dead cat to get out of it.  Reported as fact then inconvenient stuff like the truth and video of the event proved to be wrong.

But its ok as the big players in the media have repeated it after being told by tory sources it had happened giving it a lovely sheen of veracity.  Obviously it would be stupid to actually check before sending stuff out.  I mean I rewrite stuff several times before sending it, major journalists don't feel they need to.

The one the nurse who was not a nurse has said was not true and she's been hacked?

'I was hacked. I am not a nurse and I certainly don’t know anyone in Leeds,” the woman told the Guardian. “I’ve had to delete everything as I have had death threats to myself and my children.”

The depths that are being plumbed in this election is truly horrific.  And in these last 2 days nothing can be held to account as their isn't time, so carte blanche for the lies, smears and libel chaps.  If its proved that we've been lying grasping venal cunts after the election it doesnt matter, we'll get a slap on the wrist and a fine but its worth it, we can brazen it out.

This is an interesting thread about the trolls and the bots kicking in

https://twitter.com/marcowenjones/status/1204183081009262592

But even then Ive no idea if any of it is true or right.  It appeals to my opinions but I don't know whats truth anymore.  Lets face it thats been the whole point of social media war on reality.

It's so so depressing.  Im fairly sure that at some point people sought positions in government to help people and improve society.  Thats all gone.  Lets just keep pumping the world for our own means until it disappears into nothingness.  We wont be alive to see it.

Im off for a little cry for a couple of days.

The worry is that by undermining the democratic process, the Tories are undermining that which holds the UK together. If you can't fight crypto fascist methods at the ballot box, fairly, then you're left with little alternative but to look at other methods.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 12:50:16
(https://scontent.fman2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/78242597_2916636365042924_5580018667694850048_o.png?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ohc=cIDwgQEW8UYAQnjTyEe9GwB9yPNahouUqJXgBnM5tbNjuHvt8vLY6aA4g&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-2.fna&oh=c877edbe1434c525dc2edb6800f1a931&oe=5E78B104)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 12:52:45
Time for a genuine outsider to appeal to the disaffected? Like that comedian in Italy(?).

We can’t keep on regurgitating the old Tory/Labour parties.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 13:01:01
What the picture that was confirmed by the hospital?  

The one that a stream of bots have waged a war against after sending johnson out to talk about it failed.  And sending Hancock failed despite making up a story about an army of paid labour activists ending with a tory being punched was proved not to be the dead cat to get out of it.  Reported as fact then inconvenient stuff like the truth and video of the event proved to be wrong.

But its ok as the big players in the media have repeated it after being told by tory sources it had happened giving it a lovely sheen of veracity.  Obviously it would be stupid to actually check before sending stuff out.  I mean I rewrite stuff several times before sending it, major journalists don't feel they need to.

The one the nurse who was not a nurse has said was not true and she's been hacked?

'I was hacked. I am not a nurse and I certainly don’t know anyone in Leeds,” the woman told the Guardian. “I’ve had to delete everything as I have had death threats to myself and my children.”

The depths that are being plumbed in this election is truly horrific.  And in these last 2 days nothing can be held to account as their isn't time, so carte blanche for the lies, smears and libel chaps.  If its proved that we've been lying grasping venal cunts after the election it doesnt matter, we'll get a slap on the wrist and a fine but its worth it, we can brazen it out.

This is an interesting thread about the trolls and the bots kicking in

https://twitter.com/marcowenjones/status/1204183081009262592

But even then Ive no idea if any of it is true or right.  It appeals to my opinions but I don't know whats truth anymore.  Lets face it thats been the whole point of social media war on reality.

It's so so depressing.  Im fairly sure that at some point people sought positions in government to help people and improve society.  Thats all gone.  Lets just keep pumping the world for our own means until it disappears into nothingness.  We wont be alive to see it.

Im off for a little cry for a couple of days.

It's horrible.

You should always expect a little 'bending of the truth' from politicians on all sides, but this campaign has been something else.  

It's insidious. Dystopian, even. And a lot of people just don't care.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 13:03:10
Time for a genuine outsider to appeal to the disaffected? Like that comedian in Italy(?).

We can’t keep on regurgitating the old Tory/Labour parties.
We can't, but turning to populist quick fixes isn't the answer. That comedian in Italy put a far right govt in power. The equivalent "populist alternative to old style parties" is precisely the offer of Farage Ltd. If Farage is the answer, you're not asking the right question


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 13:04:12
It's horrible.

You should always expect a little 'bending of the truth' from politicians on all sides, but this campaign has been something else. 

It's insidious. Dystopian, even. And a lot of people just don't care.
Quite. If truth no longer holds any value, then politicians cannot be held to account. And democracy is dead.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 13:05:49
Time for a genuine outsider to appeal to the disaffected? Like that comedian in Italy(?).

We can’t keep on regurgitating the old Tory/Labour parties.

Electoral reform would be a good idea.  At the last election Farage was an outsider who gained many votes, but little representation, that was wrong and it's wrongness has meant that the Tories have now occupied that terrain, by purging their party of more moderate voices.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 13:15:26
Electoral reform would be a good idea.  At the last election Farage was an outsider who gained many votes, but little representation, that was wrong and it's wrongness has meant that the Tories have now occupied that terrain, by purging their party of more moderate voices.

I'd certainly like to see more proportional representation and a change in how it works here. The greens in particular would surge in popularity I would think.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 13:19:02
I'd certainly like to see more proportional representation and a change in how it works here. The greens in particular would surge in popularity I would think.
Has anyone actually calculated how the last election would have ended up with PR?

If we had PR then I would not have had to cast a tactical vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 13:21:27
Has anyone actually calculated how the last election would have ended up with PR?

If we had PR then I would not have had to cast a tactical vote.

I've not seen it but don't think it would be accurate as people would alter their votes like you say, not vote tactically. I would vote green if we had proportional representation. Others would alter their choices too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 13:22:10
Very true.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 13:43:18
Has anyone actually calculated how the last election would have ended up with PR?

If we had PR then I would not have had to cast a tactical vote.

Following the 2017 election.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/how-would-parliament-look-under-proportional-representation

Based on this from the Electoral Reform Society.
https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/latest-news-and-research/publications/the-2017-general-election-report/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 13:47:21
Interesting.

I personally prefer the STV system.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 13:52:27
Interesting.

I personally prefer the STV system.
Sexually Transmitted Voting? Could catch on


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 13:56:17
Sexually Transmitted Voting? Could catch on

Nah Scottish TV voting?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 14:06:52
Swindon Town voting, surely. Reg for President. Free beer, Oxfordshire to be physically cut out from the mainland and towed out to sea.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 14:16:11
The problem I see is that Momentum still hold the reins of power within Labour, and so I can't see the party moving back to centre ground any time soon, even if Labour were to take an absolute hammering on Thursday. (which they won't imho), starting a new party - at least one that survives beyond the initial swell of public support - is very difficult indeed.

I do despair of the quality of politicians we have these days. Very few of any intellect or with the courage to stand up for what is right. All the parties are crap at the moment. They all lie, they all twist, and they all get outraged when one of the others pulls off a stunt of some kind, only then to repeat their own variation of that stunt themselves shortly after. Not one of them is truly worthy of our votes. I'll certainly be holding my nose on Thursday when I cast my ballot. - and vote I will, because to not vote and then complain about what happens next would be utterly hypocritical.

So my choices are mendacity vs (mendacity + economic oblivion) vs (mendacity + desperation) vs (mendacity + delusional.) In Scotland I'd have an extra choice of (Mendacity + more mendacity + incompetence + bigotry.)

It has been said that we get the politicians we deserve, and I fear that that statement has never been truer than it is today. We are never going to improve our politics until we can attract decent people, from all walks of life, of all political viewpoints to offer themselves up for election. And then we have to be willing to vote for them, even if they don't indulge in the bribery and soundbite fest that characterises election campaigning today.
We have to listen to what people actually say on complex issues, rather than insisting that everything be encapsulated in a short soundbite - soundbites that are all too frequently wilfully misinterpreted by the other side.

We also have to call out the dirty tricks and lies when we see them on ALL sides.

Lastly and perhaps most importantly of all, we need to call out the media, both print, social and broadcast to do its job better.
The media plays a central role in the decline of modern politics imho. What was once a source of information , largely reliable in the eyes of many, is now dumbed down beyond all recognition, fundamentally biased and unable to see anything beyond their own opinions. 21st century media is too keen to speculate and make up the story itself rather than investigate properly and report the facts.

The media has become toxic and corrosive to our democracy and it needs to shape up. Frankly we need to clone Andrew Neil and put him everywhere, in the face of every politician, but in the absence of that, it's surely not too much to ask for a more serious, professional approach, and less silly grandstanding and 'have you stopped beating your wife yet' style questions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 14:25:52
Great post.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 14:31:06
I'd love some form of PR to be in place, but I am not sure there are enough adults to play it properly.  We couldn't even cope with a Con/Lib combo without ruining the smaller party for years to come.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 14:59:29
The problem I see is that Momentum still hold the reins of power within Labour, and so I can't see the party moving back to centre ground any time soon, even if Labour were to take an absolute hammering on Thursday. (which they won't imho), starting a new party - at least one that survives beyond the initial swell of public support - is very difficult indeed.

I do despair of the quality of politicians we have these days. Very few of any intellect or with the courage to stand up for what is right. All the parties are crap at the moment. They all lie, they all twist, and they all get outraged when one of the others pulls off a stunt of some kind, only then to repeat their own variation of that stunt themselves shortly after. Not one of them is truly worthy of our votes. I'll certainly be holding my nose on Thursday when I cast my ballot. - and vote I will, because to not vote and then complain about what happens next would be utterly hypocritical.

So my choices are mendacity vs (mendacity + economic oblivion) vs (mendacity + desperation) vs (mendacity + delusional.) In Scotland I'd have an extra choice of (Mendacity + more mendacity + incompetence + bigotry.)

It has been said that we get the politicians we deserve, and I fear that that statement has never been truer than it is today. We are never going to improve our politics until we can attract decent people, from all walks of life, of all political viewpoints to offer themselves up for election. And then we have to be willing to vote for them, even if they don't indulge in the bribery and soundbite fest that characterises election campaigning today.
We have to listen to what people actually say on complex issues, rather than insisting that everything be encapsulated in a short soundbite - soundbites that are all too frequently wilfully misinterpreted by the other side.

We also have to call out the dirty tricks and lies when we see them on ALL sides.

Lastly and perhaps most importantly of all, we need to call out the media, both print, social and broadcast to do its job better.
The media plays a central role in the decline of modern politics imho. What was once a source of information , largely reliable in the eyes of many, is now dumbed down beyond all recognition, fundamentally biased and unable to see anything beyond their own opinions. 21st century media is too keen to speculate and make up the story itself rather than investigate properly and report the facts.

The media has become toxic and corrosive to our democracy and it needs to shape up. Frankly we need to clone Andrew Neil and put him everywhere, in the face of every politician, but in the absence of that, it's surely not too much to ask for a more serious, professional approach, and less silly grandstanding and 'have you stopped beating your wife yet' style questions.

I suspect we'll be holding our noses in different directions but I 100% agree with everything you've said here (apart from Andrew Neil, has his own vested interests too, but someone like him as an interrogator). Without an honest objective media to hold politicians to account, democracy is lost. Great post, as Ardiles said


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 15:41:52
Johnson fucking bumbling his way through something, something, JCB at this very minute. All of the JCB staff behind him frankly look embarrassed to be sat there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 16:10:28
Lastly and perhaps most importantly of all, we need to call out the media, both print, social and broadcast to do its job better.
The media plays a central role in the decline of modern politics imho. What was once a source of information , largely reliable in the eyes of many, is now dumbed down beyond all recognition, fundamentally biased and unable to see anything beyond their own opinions. 21st century media is too keen to speculate and make up the story itself rather than investigate properly and report the facts.

The media has become toxic and corrosive to our democracy and it needs to shape up. Frankly we need to clone Andrew Neil and put him everywhere, in the face of every politician, but in the absence of that, it's surely not too much to ask for a more serious, professional approach, and less silly grandstanding and 'have you stopped beating your wife yet' style questions.


Have we got any young people coming through with these qualities and with the desire to become an old fashioned Journalist what with the easy by which Social Media allows people to make an impression.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 16:21:58
Have we got any young people coming through with these qualities and with the desire to become an old fashioned Journalist what with the easy by which Social Media allows people to make an impression.


Well, there's the ITV journalist who's phone Johnson nicked so he wouldn't have to look at and respond to the photo of a 4 year old child lying on coats on a hospital floor, for one. He's done more to hold politicians to account than the rest of the BBC and ITV combined


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 17:01:12
As if to prove the point of my previous post about how when one thing is leaked by one side, another is leaked by the other....

Mind you the Ashworth telephone call is quite sinister really. First we have Labour in possession of leaked government documents which may have passed through the hands of the Russians, and now we find the shadow health secretary appears to have Darth Vader on speed dial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FIrFGFAzQI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FIrFGFAzQI)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 07:19:01
Well within the realms of a hung parliament.

It could also go the other way, of course, but what with tactical voting and a surge in young voters, it's more likely to swing labour's way.

(https://i.imgur.com/tkeehmn.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 08:56:10
I know I'm jumping the gun, and I'm not making assumptions, but when's the last time the party that won the most seats was unable to form a government? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 10:09:04
Well, there's the ITV journalist who's phone Johnson nicked so he wouldn't have to look at and respond to the photo of a 4 year old child lying on coats on a hospital floor, for one. He's done more to hold politicians to account than the rest of the BBC and ITV combined

There is also the lad from C4 news who went after Gove.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 10:11:00
So this morning an aide told an ITV Reporter to F off live on air and then Johnson hid in a Fridge...

https://twitter.com/james_carroll/status/1204699956172468224

He's a wannabe Pat Mustard!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 10:37:23
 Is there anything they won't lie about?

(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/79305904_513450615938528_8458369019190181888_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_ohc=mg-rXQTZ8f4AQn3maPviuZ5Cu6WFIA8HPU0wJFBxDTTyAy5hXRvmNOyPw&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-2.fna&oh=30f20c256bdb9234c7933459cb42b8ab&oe=5E836943)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 10:40:50
So this morning an aide told an ITV Reporter to F off live on air and then Johnson hid in a Fridge...

https://twitter.com/james_carroll/status/1204699956172468224

He's a wannabe Pat Mustard!

It's one thing to bottle out of being interviewed by Andrew Neil, but now he won't even face up to morning sofa telly, including his actual mate Piers Morgan? Massive bottler.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 10:54:29
It's one thing to bottle out of being interviewed by Andrew Neil, but now he won't even face up to morning sofa telly, including his actual mate Piers Morgan? Massive bottler.

I understand he had relented and is doing one on BBC this afternoon with Mr Tumble?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 11:07:46
If the polls were closer, he'd be doing these interviews.  But he knows that he's over the line.  A majority of even 10 will be just fine.  He's happy to be called a bottler because, once he gets a majority, it will be forgotten within days.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 11:11:50
He's far from being over the line.

Yesterday's prediction by MRP says there's 14 seats in it between a tory majority and a hung parliament. I know it's only a poll, but he'd be mad to be treating it as though he's already won.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 11:22:35
The nail in Labours election coffin will come from working class people who think Brexit is needed and want it by the looks of it. These are the very people who will need the services the Tories have cut and will continue to cut to the bones. Turkeys and Christmas and all that...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 11:25:59
The nail in Labours election coffin will come from working class people who think Brexit is needed and want it by the looks of it. These are the very people who will need the services the Tories have cut and will continue to cut to the bones. Turkeys and Christmas and all that...

Isn't it a favourite Tory saying that the poor stay poor because they make the wrong decisions?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 11:33:55
Isn't it a favourite Tory saying that the poor stay poor because they make the wrong decisions?

In some cases they are correct there then, it would appear.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 11:44:13
In some cases they are correct there then, it would appear.

Oh, how they'll laugh over their cognacs in their leather armchairs at the poor deluded sops.

They've finally broken the British working man's affiliation with Labour. Even Thatcher couldn't bring the north home for them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 11:57:14
I understand he had relented and is doing one on BBC this afternoon with Mr Tumble?
Well he's said he might, but has refused to name the exact time and place while he looks for a bigger fridge to hide in


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 11:58:23
He's far from being over the line.

Yesterday's prediction by MRP says there's 14 seats in it between a tory majority and a hung parliament. I know it's only a poll, but he'd be mad to be treating it as though he's already won.
If there's one thing we know about Johnson, aside from being a lying coward, it's his absolute sense of entitlement. Of course he's treating it as if he's already won.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 12:11:32
Oh, how they'll laugh over their cognacs in their leather armchairs at the poor deluded sops.

They've finally broken the British working man's affiliation with Labour. Even Thatcher couldn't bring the north home for them.

Crazy times we live in


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Panda Paws on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 12:12:52
I'm torn between burning down the polling station or just sitting on my arse avoiding the whole steaming mess.

A farcical, offensive and incompetent opposition empowers a toxic, unchecked government all fuelled by an unprecedented era of manipulation & media fuckwittery. The use of media by both sides is abhorrent. The creation of and distribution of lies, half-truths and general fuckwittery is despicable, without precedent and terrifying in terms of its scope and scale in the future.

Best bet - don't let anything in the media sway your vote at this point, because the chances of it being completely as it seems are slim, irrelevant of side.

My prediction: BJ gets a working majority by a gnat's cock (bad), JC resigns (good), we leave Europe (bad) but the very fine silver lining is that Labour have a chance to appoint a genuine leader who can build a viable alternative, start holding the government to account and provide a true option next GE.

The damage done by both parties in the last five years will take a generation to overcome.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 12:20:30
I'm torn between burning down the polling station or just sitting on my arse avoiding the whole steaming mess.

A farcical, offensive and incompetent opposition empowers a toxic, unchecked government all fuelled by an unprecedented era of manipulation & media fuckwittery. The use of media by both sides is abhorrent. The creation of and distribution of lies, half-truths and general fuckwittery is despicable, without precedent and terrifying in terms of its scope and scale in the future.

Best bet - don't let anything in the media sway your vote at this point, because the chances of it being completely as it seems are slim, irrelevant of side.

My prediction: BJ gets a working majority by a gnat's cock (bad), JC resigns (good), we leave Europe (bad) but the very fine silver lining is that Labour have a chance to appoint a genuine leader who can build a viable alternative, start holding the government to account and provide a true option next GE.

The damage done by both parties in the last five years will take a generation to overcome.
Think you're spot on with all this. Hope you're right on your prediction as I think that's the best (likely) outcome at this point


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 12:27:06
The only hope now, I guess, is that Johnson's behaviour in the last few days - hiding in fridges to avoid questions and failing to show an empathy with the plight of a sick child - finally starts to have an effect.  But, as above, I doubt it.  Positions are more entrenched now than is normal.  I have a feeling that the polls this time will be a more reliable indicator of the eventual result than was the case in 2015 & 2017.

I've gone full Reg/Victor Meldrew on this, I'm afraid.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 12:47:56
I'm torn between burning down the polling station or just sitting on my arse avoiding the whole steaming mess.

A farcical, offensive and incompetent opposition empowers a toxic, unchecked government all fuelled by an unprecedented era of manipulation & media fuckwittery. The use of media by both sides is abhorrent. The creation of and distribution of lies, half-truths and general fuckwittery is despicable, without precedent and terrifying in terms of its scope and scale in the future.

Best bet - don't let anything in the media sway your vote at this point, because the chances of it being completely as it seems are slim, irrelevant of side.

My prediction: BJ gets a working majority by a gnat's cock (bad), JC resigns (good), we leave Europe (bad) but the very fine silver lining is that Labour have a chance to appoint a genuine leader who can build a viable alternative, start holding the government to account and provide a true option next GE.

The damage done by both parties in the last five years will take a generation to overcome.


How is the Labour Party going to appoint an ‘acceptable to the people’ leader when it’s been purged of all but the slavering Corbynistas? I’d have thought Tom Watson could have been a prospective leader but he’s now legged it.

From whatever political persuasion, there is a complete lack of decent, honest and capable people to choose from. Career politicians with no perception of the real world keeps throwing up this bunch of incompetents.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 12:58:02
I'm torn between burning down the polling station or just sitting on my arse avoiding the whole steaming mess.

A farcical, offensive and incompetent opposition empowers a toxic, unchecked government all fuelled by an unprecedented era of manipulation & media fuckwittery. The use of media by both sides is abhorrent. The creation of and distribution of lies, half-truths and general fuckwittery is despicable, without precedent and terrifying in terms of its scope and scale in the future.

Best bet - don't let anything in the media sway your vote at this point, because the chances of it being completely as it seems are slim, irrelevant of side.

My prediction: BJ gets a working majority by a gnat's cock (bad), JC resigns (good), we leave Europe (bad) but the very fine silver lining is that Labour have a chance to appoint a genuine leader who can build a viable alternative, start holding the government to account and provide a true option next GE.

The damage done by both parties in the last five years will take a generation to overcome.



I wish this forum had a like function, just so I could show appreciation for your repeated use of fuckwittery!

In terms of your predictions;
BJ gets a working majority by a gnat's cock - as its stands I fear this is the best that can be hoped for, unless the tactical voting just hasn't been picked up in the polling/Johnson shoots a child in the next 24 hours.

JC resigns (good), we leave Europe (bad) but the very fine silver lining is that Labour have a chance to appoint a genuine leader who can build a viable alternative, start holding the government to account and provide a true option next GE. - Even now I am not convinced that Corbyn would go, even after a monumental defeat (which is unlikely to happen). Under him the party has become, to many, a cult, one only has to look at the way the faithful spun the 2017 election and the Euro's/locals defeats this year to see that winning seems less important that purity to many (not all). Likewise as the preferred replacements (even if Corbyn does go, those electing the new leader aren't going to change) seem to be Long-Bailey or Rayner I just don't see a bright new dawn, I hope I am wrong.

The damage done by both parties in the last five years will take a generation to overcome. - Will it, if anyone thinks that after the shit show of the last 9 years that a vote for the Tories is good for the country, I fear they are lost and will just continue to do same for ever, the Tories have morphed into the ENP yet are still winning elections so they are doing something right for 40 odd% of the population. Likewise unless Labour suddenly lurch centrewards again they will retain their core supporters.

There is a gaping hole in the centre of UK politics, however our present system does not support new parties so who knows?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 13:13:12
I'm torn between burning down the polling station or just sitting on my arse avoiding the whole steaming mess.

A farcical, offensive and incompetent opposition empowers a toxic, unchecked government all fuelled by an unprecedented era of manipulation & media fuckwittery. The use of media by both sides is abhorrent. The creation of and distribution of lies, half-truths and general fuckwittery is despicable, without precedent and terrifying in terms of its scope and scale in the future.

Best bet - don't let anything in the media sway your vote at this point, because the chances of it being completely as it seems are slim, irrelevant of side.

My prediction: BJ gets a working majority by a gnat's cock (bad), JC resigns (good), we leave Europe (bad) but the very fine silver lining is that Labour have a chance to appoint a genuine leader who can build a viable alternative, start holding the government to account and provide a true option next GE.

The damage done by both parties in the last five years will take a generation to overcome.



Well I'm not going to entirely agree whilst you do make valid points and think you have a view many share.
 
The way you describe the opposition is how I'd describe the current conservative offering. They are farcical, offensive and incompetent in my opinion. They are also dishonest to the core.

The dishonesty and media manipulation has come from the Tories as fact checking has proven. I'm not excusing Labour but I don't think the 2 main parties can be compared in that way. They're miles apart, for me at least.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 13:27:14
They're miles apart, for me at least.


88%-0% apart I believe....

Good lad https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-liberal-democrats-labour-stockton-south-brendan-devlin-a9241981.html

In summary this would have done Goebbels proud...

https://dorseteye.com/strap-yourselves-in-folks-one-of-the-political-stories-of-the-century-is-brewing/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 13:32:08
88%-0% apart I believe....

In summary this would have done Goebbels proud...

https://dorseteye.com/strap-yourselves-in-folks-one-of-the-political-stories-of-the-century-is-brewing/

Quote
16. It’s then discovered that Sheree Jenner-Hepburn’s son has a Facebook friend with a very prominent role within this story which may cast light on the motives behind the fake post.

17. It’s… Matt Hancock’s account!!!

That final part should send chills down peoples' spines.

But nothing will happen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: normy on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 13:48:06
My wife and I have voted by post for Labour, as the least bad option, a good candidate I believe, and with a chance of getting rid of Buckland.

We know a few new voters who are voting Labour, so looking forward to an upset in Swindon South. Unlikely, but not impossible.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 14:05:57
I'm torn between burning down the polling station or just sitting on my arse avoiding the whole steaming mess.

A farcical, offensive and incompetent opposition empowers a toxic, unchecked government all fuelled by an unprecedented era of manipulation & media fuckwittery. The use of media by both sides is abhorrent. The creation of and distribution of lies, half-truths and general fuckwittery is despicable, without precedent and terrifying in terms of its scope and scale in the future.

Best bet - don't let anything in the media sway your vote at this point, because the chances of it being completely as it seems are slim, irrelevant of side.

My prediction: BJ gets a working majority by a gnat's cock (bad), JC resigns (good), we leave Europe (bad) but the very fine silver lining is that Labour have a chance to appoint a genuine leader who can build a viable alternative, start holding the government to account and provide a true option next GE.

The damage done by both parties in the last five years will take a generation to overcome.



Yea well done I go along with this summary as a few others on here have also - the damage caused by the referendum cannot be discounted - I only hope and pray we are never asked to do so ever again. I find it really quite sad the mess that has been created by all of this - I hope it will stop soon but know it won`t...my own New Year`s resolution is to find something better to do than engage as ultimately there really is fuck all that I can do to change anything


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 14:13:11
My wife and I have voted by post for Labour, as the least bad option, a good candidate I believe, and with a chance of getting rid of Buckland.

We know a few new voters who are voting Labour, so looking forward to an upset in Swindon South. Unlikely, but not impossible.

I think she has a fair chance. Was pretty close last time and can go further his time around and oust the vile Tory boy, hopefully.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 14:17:04
The way you describe the opposition is how I'd describe the current conservative offering. They are farcical, offensive and incompetent in my opinion. They are also dishonest to the core.
Let's be honest, they're both a shower of shit. Leaving aside the actual parties, just as any halfway competent leader of the opposition should be wiping the floor with the buffoon Johnson, so likewise any Tory leader remotely capable should be blowing Corbyn out of the water, not watching their poll lead narrow every time they open their halfwit mouth (or hide in a fridge because their aides are terrified they might do)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 14:22:48
Let's be honest, they're both a shower of shit. Leaving aside the actual parties, just as any halfway competent leader of the opposition should be wiping the floor with the buffoon Johnson, so likewise any Tory leader remotely capable should be blowing Corbyn out of the water, not watching their poll lead narrow every time they open their halfwit mouth (or hide in a fridge because their aides are terrified they might do)

To a point I agree. But when you look around the respective parties, how they vote in the commons and how they conduct themselves, the things they say etc shows one side is much worse than the other.
Tory MPs are just horrible people to me. No compassion and just lie after lie. I'd take an incompetent, honest person over any of them. Flaws and all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 14:26:56
I think I am going to deliberately get pissed tomorrow evening just so I am not tempted to stay up and watch the inevitably depressing results!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 14:32:42
To a point I agree. But when you look around the respective parties, how they vote in the commons and how they conduct themselves, the things they say etc shows one side is much worse than the other.
Tory MPs are just horrible people to me. No compassion and just lie after lie. I'd take an incompetent, honest person over any of them. Flaws and all.
Oh I agree. I was just comparing the two leaders as being as inept as each other. And I'd throw Swinson in there as well, she's proper ballsed up what should have been a good opportunity for the Lib Dems. Difference being I suppose that Johnson is also malignant and dishonest as well as incompetent.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 14:36:23
MPs are just horrible people to me. No compassion and just lie after lie.
Just this, no need for the rest of the post.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 14:42:22
Fair play, I personally don’t know enough information about each and every single one of the 650 MPs to make that judgement so I’ll take your word for it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 14:43:11
Oh I agree. I was just comparing the two leaders as being as inept as each other. And I'd throw Swinson in there as well, she's proper ballsed up what should have been a good opportunity for the Lib Dems. Difference being I suppose that Johnson is also malignant and dishonest as well as incompetent.

And going to be PM, there was never realistically a possibility of Corbyn or Swinson getting into no.10 without some manner of coalition to temper their most extreme ideas.

In other news LK is now reporting what the postal votes are saying, despite it being illegal for them to be looked at before polls close.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 14:48:16
Just this, no need for the rest of the post.

Your opinion, not mine.
Not all are


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 16:41:48
Kuenssburg's in trouble again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chubbs on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 16:42:22
Kuenssburg's in trouble again.
Just see that. But will she actually get in trouble though?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 16:45:00
From what I know, it may well be illegal.

(https://i.imgur.com/9RkCkAE.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chubbs on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 16:46:08
From what I know, it is hard to see how it is not illegal.


Oh 100% but as with a lot, i can see this being swept under the carpet someway or another.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 16:48:39
Oh 100% but as with a lot, i can see this being swept under the carpet someway or another.

You're probably right.

Nothing will happen, the BBC will say it was a mistake, and Rob Burley will act condescendingly to those complaining about it.

Again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 16:51:42
My wife and I have voted by post for Labour, as the least bad option, a good candidate I believe, and with a chance of getting rid of Buckland.

We know a few new voters who are voting Labour, so looking forward to an upset in Swindon South. Unlikely, but not impossible.

Buckland won by nearly 6000 votes in 2015, less than 2500 in 2017, so it's certainly not out of the question.
Fingers crossed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 17:48:57
the problem is that I think Labour have lost a lot of ground in 2 years

but we live in extraordinary times


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 19:09:12
From what I know, it may well be illegal.

(https://i.imgur.com/9RkCkAE.png)

Raab did the same in an interview with Michael Crick a few days ago. TBF to him, he's such a fucking idiot he may well not have realised it wasn't allowed. Makes no odds, he won't get prosecuted either. We are now in an age where politicians and their friends have become unaccountable, like Trump in the US


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 19:57:12
The only hope now, I guess, is that Johnson's behaviour in the last few days - hiding in fridges to avoid questions and failing to show an empathy with the plight of a sick child - finally starts to have an effect.  But, as above, I doubt it.  Positions are more entrenched now than is normal.  I have a feeling that the polls this time will be a more reliable indicator of the eventual result than was the case in 2015 & 2017.

I've gone full Reg/Victor Meldrew on this, I'm afraid.

Unfortunately, and this is only one viewpoint I know but BJ could come and deliver, either a pint of milk or curl out a very large turd on my Father's doorstep and he would still vote for the Tories. I'm sure this may mirror across parts of the country too :(

I have fallen out with my Dad thanks to this bunch of self serving wankers. There is zero chance of even getting into a discussion, about anything without him turning it into some form of political point scoring. He is not a rich man, he relies upon our health service and disability benefits to deliver for him. I cannot understand why, on the milky way he would even consider voting Conservative?

I genuinely despair and it is just a very sad state of affairs. Purely because many can see that the shitstorm is about to intensify, if voting goes in favour of a continuation of the current government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 20:04:21
LK really is a cunt, like really a horrible one. I don't think she'd even be welcome on the TEF. She has gone beyond that for me.

I'm still waiting for an apology from the BBC and LK...

...it won't happen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 20:16:53
Just to re-visit what is now old ground... a man, who after tomorrow may well have to stand up to Trump, Putin, Xi et al... hid in a fridge to avoid questions from a tv presenter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 20:32:46
Just to re-visit what is now old ground... a man, who after tomorrow may well have to stand up to Trump, Putin, Xi et al... hid in a fridge to avoid questions from a tv presenter.

Stand up to them? He's likely to be found in a wardrobe alongside them and tossing them off. With Cummings (no pun) stood on top of said wardrobe. There's a drawing for Jim'll Paint it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 20:45:35
Stand up to them? He's likely to be found in a wardrobe fridge alongside them and tossing them off. With Cummings (no pun) stood on top of said wardrobe fridge. There's a drawing for Jim'll Paint it.

Fixed that for you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 21:06:14
I have fallen out with my Dad thanks to this bunch of self serving wankers.
Not worth falling out with family over.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 21:14:48
I like this one so it must be accurate.

(https://i.imgur.com/JvBqkfN.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 21:48:30
Fixed that for you.

Thank you. It's very much appreciated. I've no idea why I didn't put fridge myself :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 21:53:08
Not worth falling out with family over.

No it isn't at all but I feel this is a very similar picture across the nation.

Brexit divided, by forcing us to choose black or white. This election is the wedge - which keeps us apart. We are the disunited kingdom.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 09:11:28
Hopefully the country won't run out off weapons grade HB pencils today.

I like the tradition in some places where people take their kids \ grandkids along to put the paper in the box.
Don't see it over here or is it not allowed.
Does it \ would it make people think a bit more about they are doing.
An election is about what people would like to happen in the future after all.
I dunno.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 09:16:42
Hopefully the country won't run out off weapons grade HB pencils today.

I like the tradition in some places where people take their kids \ grandkids along to put the paper in the box.
Don't see it over here or is it not allowed.
Does it \ would it make people think a bit more about they are doing.
An election is about what people would like to happen in the future after all.
I dunno.

There was a small child doing this with his mum when I went to vote this morning.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 09:35:00
Small things and that but you couldn’t ask for better weather today. Could put off a few of the elderly from venturing out.

Always enjoyed the whole process of going to polling station and voting, no idea why.  Putting a cross in the labour box earlier through gritted teeth probably took the shine off it a bit today though


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 09:36:15
Small things and that but you couldn’t ask for better weather today.

Could put off a few of elderly from venturing out

And some students?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 09:37:21
Probably, but I think students are less likely to be put off by cold weather than old people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 09:38:42
Probably, but I think students are less likely to be put off by cold weather than old people.
It's not the cold,  it's the bloody rain in this area !!.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Panda Paws on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 09:44:54
Small things and that but you couldn’t ask for better weather today. Could put off a few of the elderly from venturing out.

Always enjoyed the whole process of going to polling station and voting, no idea why.  Putting a cross in the labour box earlier through gritted teeth probably took the shine off it a bit today though

Charming. Why would you want old, vulnerable people to be unable to exercise their right to vote?

Everyone's vote, and everyone's opinion, is equal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 09:52:21
Do the right thing today folks, on behalf of those of us who can't.  :headhurts:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 10:00:37
Charming. Why would you want old, vulnerable people to be unable to exercise their right to vote?

Everyone's vote, and everyone's opinion, is equal.


Voting demographics clearly and which party I’d rather didn’t win a majority.

If in the event the Tories narrowly missed on a majority and some experts put it down to the a small %age of core elderly support staying home then I’d be delighted! Unlikely scenario obviously


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 10:13:46
Raab did the same in an interview with Michael Crick a few days ago. TBF to him, he's such a fucking idiot he may well not have realised it wasn't allowed. Makes no odds, he won't get prosecuted either. We are now in an age where politicians and their friends have become unaccountable, like Trump in the US

Those who know more than me suggest that actually LK hasn't really done anything wrong

https://twitter.com/forwardnotback/status/1204816371978297345

This however!!!

https://twitter.com/SocialistBloke/status/1204827659013898241


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 10:22:08
Those who know more than me suggest that actually LK hasn't really done anything wrong

https://twitter.com/forwardnotback/status/1204816371978297345
Although the Electoral Commission, who probably know more about this than Tim on Twitter say:

"It may be an offence to communicate any information obtained at postal vote opening sessions, including about votes cast, before a poll has closed. Anyone with information to suggest this has happened should report it immediately to the police."

https://twitter.com/ElectoralCommUK/status/1204790546675437573

The point being that the offence is not that she or someone else has looked at the votes cast per se, but that they are communicating information about it before the poll has closed. It's the same reason why they're not allowed to publish exit polls on election day before the polls close.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 10:22:15
Apparently huge queues in many constituencies (seems to be places where Labour already have a big majority) and lots of young people turning out to vote.

There were a fair few at East Wichel this morning, but no queues at 07:30.

Anyone seen any queues in Swindon?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 10:24:42
Those who know more than me suggest that actually LK hasn't really done anything wrong

https://twitter.com/forwardnotback/status/1204816371978297345


I'm not an expert, and I am not doubting that what he says is correct, but that guy seems to have missed the point.

He seems to be addressing how the information was obtained, not the fact that this information was then publicly broadcast. The rules say that no information on voting patterns is allowed to be released, and Kuenssburg did exactly that.

There's also other experts that do believe the rules have been broken.


This however!!!

https://twitter.com/SocialistBloke/status/1204827659013898241

A slip of the tongue? Another 'honest mistake'?

Another 'mistake' that, by pure coincidence, just happens to favour the tories again?

Nevermind, I'm sure Rob Burley will be along before long to put us plebs in our place.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 10:25:21
Apparently huge queues in many constituencies (seems to be places where Labour already have a big majority) and lots of young people turning out to vote.

There were a fair few at East Wichel this morning, but no queues at 07:30.

Anyone seen any queues in Swindon?

I know its not Swindon but our polling station was heaving, albeit possibly because due to the short notice they couldn't use the main village hall like they normally do so it was in a side room about the size of a downstairs toilet!

Bloody Lib Dems put something through the door before 6 this morning, frightened the life out of us!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 10:25:52
Yeah we had another leaflet from Labour early doors


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Panda Paws on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 10:26:19
Voting demographics clearly and which party I’d rather didn’t win a majority.

If in the event the Tories narrowly missed on a majority and some experts put it down to the a small %age of core elderly support staying home then I’d be delighted! Unlikely scenario obviously

True democracy in action then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 10:30:59
Although the Electoral Commission, who probably know more about this than Tim on Twitter say:

"It may be an offence to communicate any information obtained at postal vote opening sessions, including about votes cast, before a poll has closed. Anyone with information to suggest this has happened should report it immediately to the police."

https://twitter.com/ElectoralCommUK/status/1204790546675437573

The point being that the offence is not that she or someone else has looked at the votes cast per se, but that they are communicating information about it before the poll has closed. It's the same reason why they're not allowed to publish exit polls on election day before the polls close.

If you go further down the thread he points out that this has been happening for years in elections by all the parties, he himself having briefed journalists in the same way for Labour years back.

I do suspect 'the BBC lost us the election' will be a narrative for weeks to come.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 10:32:55
Yeah we had another leaflet from Labour early doors

Its been strange round here as we are a straight tight LD/Tory marginal, about 700 votes in it last time. We have only had 1 leaflet from  the Tories, seen no one canvassing, yet we have been getting often 2 communications a day from the LD's and I got accosted by the man himself the other morning on the school walk!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 10:50:13
Apparently huge queues in many constituencies (seems to be places where Labour already have a big majority) and lots of young people turning out to vote.

There were a fair few at East Wichel this morning, but no queues at 07:30.

Anyone seen any queues in Swindon?
So far I've been to 6 polling stations around Swindon and there were queues at 4 of them.

Busy day ahead.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 10:51:46
Footballers making friends...

https://twitter.com/HectorBellerin/status/1205054790843207680

https://twitter.com/GNev2/status/1205025413786931201


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 10:54:32
The polls are heavily weighted according to how many people they think will turn out. Some even have Labour in front before the weightings are applied.

A strong turnout, especially one that is made up largely of young people, might spring a few unexpected results.

Or it might not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 10:56:37
Footballers making friends...

https://twitter.com/HectorBellerin/status/1205054790843207680

https://twitter.com/GNev2/status/1205025413786931201

Love this reply

https://twitter.com/Stillberto/status/1205062624406331392


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 11:03:56
If you go further down the thread he points out that this has been happening for years in elections by all the parties, he himself having briefed journalists in the same way for Labour years back.

"But everyone's at it" is no defence in law. Town fans of all people should know this


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 11:05:45
So far I've been to 6 polling stations around Swindon and there were queues at 4 of them.
Why've you been to 6 polling stations? You stuffing ballots? :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 11:07:00
So far I've been to 6 polling stations around Swindon and there were queues at 4 of them.

Busy day ahead.

As the old saying goes, "Vote early, and vote often". Keep it up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 11:09:03
Long queues starting to form at the polling stations in Uxbridge:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELlLyjqXUAIYnhM?format=jpg&name=small)

https://twitter.com/Rich_Bev/status/1205077712353812480


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 11:26:09
"But everyone's at it" is no defence in law. Town fans of all people should know this

Entirely correct, however its a bit rich for Labour activists to be fuelling the persecution narrative when they have been doing it for years as have the Tories and LD's.

Long queues starting to form at the polling stations in Uxbridge:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELlLyjqXUAIYnhM?format=jpg&name=small)

https://twitter.com/Rich_Bev/status/1205077712353812480

I assume to vote for this guy https://twitter.com/LordBuckethead/status/1205060123992952832


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 11:31:56
If 'Labour activists' or those affiliated with any other party have been doing it then it is wrong and it should be stopped.

But the BBC doing it is another matter entirely.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 11:40:44
Just voted(Eldene centre) Was in a queue of 6 and at 45yrs old reckon I was the youngest by at least 30 years. I love election days despite usually backing the loser.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 11:57:37
Possibly the best election poster Labour have done...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELh2juqXkAEAWBW?format=jpg&name=900x900)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 12:07:52
Entirely correct, however its a bit rich for Labour activists to be fuelling the persecution narrative when they have been doing it for years as have the Tories and LD's.
Think you're missing the point. The offence is not to brief journos about which way they think postal votes are going (although that may well also be an offence, IDK). The offence here is to *broadcast/publish* that information before the polls have closed. Which would be the same as publishing partial exit polls before the polls close on election day. Which no-one does for a very good reason.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 12:28:24
If turnout is going to be high, as seems to be the case, who does that favour?  I'm not completely clear on that.  I suppose the 65+ age group always turn out in numbers anyway...so maybe favours Labour/Lib Dems (who tend to attract younger voters)?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 12:32:17
If turnout is going to be high, as seems to be the case, who does that favour?  I'm not completely clear on that.  I suppose the 65+ age group always turn out in numbers anyway...so maybe favours Labour/Lib Dems (who tend to attract younger voters)?

I for one certainly hope this is the case.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 12:37:41
It's most likely to favour labour.

Conservative voters are more likely to vote anyway so an increase in voters suggests more labour (or anti-tory) voters are doing their part. This is especially the case if a lot of the voters are young. Around 60% of people under the age of 35 are likely to vote labour (with the remaining 40% split between the parties).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 13:01:22
Possibly the best election poster Labour have done...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELh2juqXkAEAWBW?format=jpg&name=900x900)

Like a lot of remainers I hate referendums, but I'd love one proposing forcibly removing from the country anyone who says they will leave and then doesn't.

Not so much the rejection of democracy as the arrogant belief that as a minor celebrity you have a meaningful influence on 30 million of your fellow citizens.  Paul Daniels was the earliest that I remember and set the bar suitably low.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 13:02:51
My understanding is that high turnouts favour Labour but poor weather (especially since postal voting) favours the Tories.

And I'd be pleasantly surprised if there is a high turnout given the state of resigned despair in the UK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 13:02:59
Think you're missing the point. The offence is not to brief journos about which way they think postal votes are going (although that may well also be an offence, IDK). The offence here is to *broadcast/publish* that information before the polls have closed. Which would be the same as publishing partial exit polls before the polls close on election day. Which no-one does for a very good reason.

But, (and I am not defending LK as she has had a mare all election) the media purdah only relates to today and this was yesterday, likewise the media have been promoting polls for bloody months and finally she didn't put any figures on it, merely said it was looking 'grim' for Labour.  I have no intention of wasting time checking back but I would be amazed if something similar didn't happen in 2010/15/17, its just that LK is being watched like a hawk this time, with a lot of people shouting foul (justifiably so at times) at every opportunity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 13:06:18
My understanding is that high turnouts favour Labour but poor weather (especially since postal voting) favours the Tories.

Dunno what the weather down there is like, up here we voted at 9ish and it was cold and drizzly, since then it has hammered it down incessantly and is bloody baltic! Think there is snow in the NE a bit as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 13:06:43
I suppose one way of assessing the likely effect would be to take a look at the queues.  If they're full of oldies, it's goodbye NHS.  (Oh, the irony.)  But if it's a young looking queue, we'll get to witness a full Daily Mail meltdown tomorrow.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 13:21:01
But, (and I am not defending LK as she has had a mare all election) the media purdah only relates to today and this was yesterday, likewise the media have been promoting polls for bloody months and finally she didn't put any figures on it, merely said it was looking 'grim' for Labour.

It has nothing to do with purdah. It has everything to do with not being allowed to broadcast **any** information regarding postal votes before polling has closed.

Polls are polls - not actual information on how people HAVE voted. Also, she may not have put any figures on it, but the law specifically states that people are not allowed to disseminate any information obtained (which she did). Her saying that it looks grim for labour may well discourage a lot of labour voters from voting. (which is why it is not allowed)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 13:50:20
 :)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7784881/Starting-wrong-foot-Labours-Diane-Abbott-appears-rushed-ODD-shoes.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 13:52:49
She needs to retire or something. I really think she's not well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 14:05:14
It has nothing to do with purdah. It has everything to do with not being allowed to broadcast **any** information regarding postal votes before polling has closed.

Polls are polls - not actual information on how people HAVE voted. Also, she may not have put any figures on it, but the law specifically states that people are not allowed to disseminate any information obtained (which she did). Her saying that it looks grim for labour may well discourage a lot of labour voters from voting. (which is why it is not allowed)

Whatever, bar adding to the excuses pile tomorrow AM nothing of any note will happen, I cannot see her being at the BBC long term anyway and expect her to roll up as a Tory spokesperson in the not too distant.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 14:07:07
:)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7784881/Starting-wrong-foot-Labours-Diane-Abbott-appears-rushed-ODD-shoes.html

Good sign though....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 14:15:44
Not photoshopped? Different shade to her skin on each foot.
If genuine it's hardly surprising she maybe suffering mentally, considering the abuse she's suffered.
I do think she should step back from frontline politics for her own sake.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nijholts Nuts on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 14:23:02
Not photoshopped? Different shade to her skin on each foot.
If genuine it's hardly surprising she maybe suffering mentally, considering the abuse she's suffered.
I do think she should step back from frontline politics for her own sake.
Agreed, she's is unfortunately targeted for that LBC interview last election. Unfortunately for her that seems to be her legacy instead what she has achieved as a black female politician.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 14:24:33
Not photoshopped? Different shade to her skin on each foot.
If genuine it's hardly surprising she maybe suffering mentally, considering the abuse she's suffered.
I do think she should step back from frontline politics for her own sake.

If you look at  pictures of her from only 2-3 years ago she has aged considerably and is not looking at all well. Likewise if you look at her political history he has done some bloody impressive stuff that gets completely overlooked by the right.

Good to see that the Mail feel it is necessary to resort to attacking her again today, its a sign of their squeaky bum!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 14:25:14
I see Lee Dixon is getting a kicking for daring to vote Green.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Panda Paws on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 15:02:37
If you look at  pictures of her from only 2-3 years ago she has aged considerably and is not looking at all well. Likewise if you look at her political history he has done some bloody impressive stuff that gets completely overlooked by the right.

Good to see that the Mail feel it is necessary to resort to attacking her again today, its a sign of their squeaky bum!

Pretty sure they would have ran the story if it was any candidate and shadow/cabinet minister unable to put on a pair of shoes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 15:03:43
Pretty sure they would have ran the story if it was any candidate and shadow/cabinet minister unable to put on a pair of shoes.
Not if it was a Tory they wouldn't. Any Labour/Lib Dem candidate, agreed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 15:04:43
I know it’s not popular but at some point they are going to have to make people show ID as it’s a bit ridiculous currently. Every time I vote and just get asked for my name and address it reminds me how open to abuse the system is. If people go first thing in the morning someone can pretty much vote as any person they like.  Anyone that doesn’t think there is some election fraud here is very naive, if some group decided to do coordinated fraudulent voting they could probably swing some seats which is just wrong.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 15:08:24
Not if it was a Tory they wouldn't. Any Labour/Lib Dem candidate, agreed

To be fair the Mail published this....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7292639/Boris-Johnson-seen-barely-able-walk-partying-Russian-billionaires-villa.html

Strangely none of the media seems to have remembered its happening since the election campaign started?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 15:19:59
:)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7784881/Starting-wrong-foot-Labours-Diane-Abbott-appears-rushed-ODD-shoes.html

Some people are claiming it's faked. There's other photos going around of her wearing the 'right' shoes.

Obviously can't be sure of which story is true at this point but it's pretty shitty (and standard) from the daily mail if it does turn out to be fake.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 15:23:51
I know it’s not popular but at some point they are going to have to make people show ID as it’s a bit ridiculous currently. Every time I vote and just get asked for my name and address it reminds me how open to abuse the system is. If people go first thing in the morning someone can pretty much vote as any person they like.  Anyone that doesn’t think there is some election fraud here is very naive, if some group decided to do coordinated fraudulent voting they could probably swing some seats which is just wrong.
There is negligible evidence that electoral fraud based on identity (as opposed to spending violations, a la Vote Leave campaign) is of any significance in this country. Set against that, there are approx 3.5 million people who don't have photo ID and would struggle to get some because they don't drive, can't afford holidays etc. They are overwhelmingly from disadvantaged backgrounds. Which is the Tories are as keen on photo ID for voters as the Repulicans are in the US, they are looking to disenfranchise a section of the electorate they know is unlikely to support them. It has nothing to do with fraud and everything to do with gerrymandering


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 15:28:06
Looks like that Abbott pic is photoshopped. Some people have too much time on their hands


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 15:28:39
There is negligible evidence that electoral fraud based on identity (as opposed to spending violations, a la Vote Leave campaign) is of any significance in this country. Set against that, there are approx 3.5 million people who don't have photo ID and would struggle to get some because they don't drive, can't afford holidays etc. They are overwhelmingly from disadvantaged backgrounds. Which is the Tories are as keen on photo ID for voters as the Repulicans are in the US, they are looking to disenfranchise a section of the electorate they know is unlikely to support them. It has nothing to do with fraud and everything to do with gerrymandering
I’m not advocating photo ID, even a bank card or utilities bill would be a start. You have to prove your ID to pick up a parcel at the post office for example do this is no different. In today’s world with technology, the dark internet, foreign powers meddling in politics some form of proving ID is going to have to be implemented at some point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 15:33:48
I’m not advocating photo ID, even a bank card or utilities bill would be a start.
Not much better than providing name and address then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 15:35:15
Some people are claiming it's faked. There's other photos going around of her wearing the 'right' shoes.

Obviously can't be sure of which story is true at this point but it's pretty shitty (and standard) from the daily mail if it does turn out to be fake.

If they are stooping this pathetically low the Tories must be getting jumpy?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELmMGBNWkAAeoW6?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 15:36:36
I’m not advocating photo ID, even a bank card or utilities bill would be a start. You have to prove your ID to pick up a parcel at the post office for example do this is no different. In today’s world with technology, the dark internet, foreign powers meddling in politics some form of proving ID is going to have to be implemented at some point.

I would be as worried about the Tory activists in IDS's constituency telling people outside the polling station that they cannot vote without any ID.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 15:40:31
Not much better than providing name and address then?
Still makes it harder, I just find it bizarre that for anything else you need to prove ID yet to vote for who runs the country you don’t.  It’ll be implemented eventually as any fraud is too much even if it isn’t widespread.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 15:42:28
I would be as worried about the Tory activists in IDS's constituency telling people outside the polling station that they cannot vote without any ID.
All as bad as each other, Labour activists are handing out flyers at the entrances to some polling stations as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 15:42:30
I’m not advocating photo ID, even a bank card or utilities bill would be a start. You have to prove your ID to pick up a parcel at the post office for example do this is no different. In today’s world with technology, the dark internet, foreign powers meddling in politics some form of proving ID is going to have to be implemented at some point.

This is just another case of the UK holding onto something when the rest of the world evolved years ago. Everyone in most of the developed world carries photo identity with them - driving licence or ID card - to present whenever proof of identity is required. It's not Big Brother, in fact the absence of provable ID is a bigger threat these days than the tired old British bogeyman arguments.

Oh, and sort out your 19th century FPTP electoral system while you're at it. "Home of democracy" my arse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 15:51:50
It’ll be implemented eventually as any fraud is too much even if it isn’t widespread.
It'll be implemented if the Tories win the election as they see it as a useful form of vote suppression, been used very successfully by Trump's Republicans in the US


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 15:58:33
This is just another case of the UK holding onto something when the rest of the world evolved years ago. Everyone in most of the developed world carries photo identity with them - driving licence or ID card - to present whenever proof of identity is required. It's not Big Brother, in fact the absence of provable ID is a bigger threat these days than the tired old British bogeyman arguments.

Oh, and sort out your 19th century FPTP electoral system while you're at it. "Home of democracy" my arse.

Labour tried to introduce ID cards around 06, but it never got off the ground.... many of the voices against quoted cost and the technology for such a large scale enterprise probably not being up to it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 16:00:03
It'll be implemented if the Tories win the election
Well in that case it will be implemented then  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 16:00:09
All as bad as each other, Labour activists are handing out flyers at the entrances to some polling stations as well.

Not sure if you can equate turning people away because they were not 'eligible' to vote with handing out flyers (which they can do within 50m)?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 16:01:03
Labour tried to introduce ID cards around 06, but it never got off the ground.... many of the voices against quoted cost and the technology for such a large scale enterprise probably not being up to it.

To be honest with governments (of all colours) history with implementing big IT projects I won't be holding my breath!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 16:03:46
Not sure if you can equate turning people away because they were not 'eligible' to vote with handing out flyers (which they can do within 50m)?
Equally as illegal isn’t it. Not meant to be any campaigning at polling stations is there?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 17:19:23
This is quite an interesting read despite the antagonistic headline; https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/think-corbyn-is-a-danger-to-britain-heres-how-youve-been-brainwashed/12/12/

TL-DR the pertinent bit is;

They’ve already told you what to think on a multitude of issues. You think you made up your own mind, and you think you’re right. But, you didn’t, and you aren’t.

How do I know this? Because blind policy based voting results (whereby voters tick the policies they agree with, without knowing which party they were voting for overall) are always radically different to the actual vote result when it comes to general elections and other major political votes.

Had all votes in previous elections been cast on policy pledges alone, studies suggest the Green Party and Liberal Democrats
would have both had a turn at power by now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 17:21:11
Anyway I am off to get royally drunk now so I am not tempted to sit up and watch the horror unfold.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 17:44:33
Labour tried to introduce ID cards around 06, but it never got off the ground.... many of the voices against quoted cost and the technology for such a large scale enterprise probably not being up to it.

It's this sort of acting like a backward, tinpot little country that got us into this mess in the first place.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 18:14:04
I'm going to Cheltenham for the International meeting then out (not out out) in the Hive tomorrow, I will be very pissed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 18:19:12
This is quite an interesting read despite the antagonistic headline; https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/think-corbyn-is-a-danger-to-britain-heres-how-youve-been-brainwashed/12/12/

TL-DR the pertinent bit is;

They’ve already told you what to think on a multitude of issues. You think you made up your own mind, and you think you’re right. But, you didn’t, and you aren’t.

How do I know this? Because blind policy based voting results (whereby voters tick the policies they agree with, without knowing which party they were voting for overall) are always radically different to the actual vote result when it comes to general elections and other major political votes.

Had all votes in previous elections been cast on policy pledges alone, studies suggest the Green Party and Liberal Democrats
would have both had a turn at power by now.

But people don;t just vote for policies, and they shouldn't, otherwise we'd be doing whatever the current flavour of the month is all the time.  Trust in people to carry through their pledges, confidence they can adjust when presented with new facts, to react to changing economic circumstances, and so on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 18:35:17
This is quite an interesting read despite the antagonistic headline; https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/think-corbyn-is-a-danger-to-britain-heres-how-youve-been-brainwashed/12/12/

TL-DR the pertinent bit is;

They’ve already told you what to think on a multitude of issues. You think you made up your own mind, and you think you’re right. But, you didn’t, and you aren’t.

How do I know this? Because blind policy based voting results (whereby voters tick the policies they agree with, without knowing which party they were voting for overall) are always radically different to the actual vote result when it comes to general elections and other major political votes.

Had all votes in previous elections been cast on policy pledges alone, studies suggest the Green Party and Liberal Democrats
would have both had a turn at power by now.

It's a line that has been pushed in the past and is open to challenge as to whether it is based on a false premise.  Take a documented fact (how people respond to questions about individual policy issues), extrapolate one possible conclusion from it (that people don't vote in the same way and therefore they must have been brainwashed) and then present that subjective conclusion as if it is the only natural conclusion of the objective evidence.

Ask people if they think it would be good to spend more money on (as separate questions) hospitals, schools, welfare, foreign aid, defence, coastal defences, hill farmers, the railways, the roads, city centres, the countryside etc. and people will tend to say yes to each one, mainly because it's perceived as being a good thing to do and also because people have a built-in tendency to respond yes to questions.  You can go one stage further and ask them whether that makes them more likely to consider voting for Party X who supports all those policies and they will be likely to say yes.  It's a proven psychological technique (people usually want to appear consistent in their answers).

But when they vote they are considering all those public expenditure items as a consolidated set along with the taxation/borrowing implications and a proportion of those people will then come to a different conclusion.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 19:08:50
It looks as though the tories have seen the labour trends dominating twitter and decided they want a trend of their own.

It appears they (or the ruskies) have put a load of bots into action to get #backborris tweeting.

Yes. They have spelt Boris wrong.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 20:00:56
Things I didn't expect to see on Twitter today - Jeremy Corbyn likes a tweet from Lawrence Vigoroux.

Wonder if he'll be paying any tax rise in pennies?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: bigbobjoylove on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 20:10:34
https://twitter.com/ljayes/status/1205205524352045056

:D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 21:35:47
Who really gives a toss which constituency declares results first? Like as if it's some form of competition and Cheryl Baker will present them with an award.

I'd much prefer that the counting takes a little longer and is done accurately. Nothing says "recount" like rushed counting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 21:53:42
Exit polls predicting 368 seats for the tories and 191 for Labour...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 21:54:05
Big conservative majority according to the exit polls.

I'm going to bed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 21:55:27
bUt tHe ToRiEs aRe EvIl

 :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 22:15:47
I'd laugh my cock off if Boris lost his marginal seat in Uxbridge. The complete cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 22:21:31
bUt tHe ToRiEs aRe EvIl

 :D

What’s it like being you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 22:34:40
Fully expect Labour to bury their heads in the sand. McDonnell already done so, it’s nothing to do with their lurch to the extreme left apparently


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 22:36:43
Evening everyone. Are we all sitting comfortably. Going to be an interesting evening.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 22:37:06
Hang on a minute, Sky News are reporting that by Diane Abbott’s calculations it is in fact Labour who are on track for a landslide victory!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 22:39:47
Evening everyone. Are we all sitting comfortably. Going to be an interesting evening.

Everyone but Bamboo who seems quite angry


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 22:41:53
Evening LL, I must say that it seems strangely quiet on here...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 22:49:09
Evening LL, I must say that it seems strangely quiet on here...

Cannot think why. Maybe the posters are browsing the holiday websites and brochures now that as I said it would Sterling is going to go up and make summer holiday spending money go further.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 23:07:03
Wish it was this quiet on my Facebook. All I’ve got on my feed is Labour voters saying we’re fucked now and calling people selfish and acting like scorned ex girlfriends. How about just respect the result of democracy and be graceful about it.... Thus election has got very personal and I look forward to it being out of the way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 23:14:09
Well, we've got clarity. The next five years are entirely in the hands of the Tories and those who supported them.

Good luck, little island.  :bye:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 23:19:54
Jesus Christ. Just when you think you lot can’t get any worse.

i Just hope none of you need the NHS anytime soon

Adios y bueno suerte. You’re going to need it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 23:41:59
fucking Corbyn has fucking fucked this up.
.

fuck you Britain


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 23:55:33
fucking Corbyn has fucking fucked this up.
.

fuck you Britain

Think you're casting the net a bit wide.  Fuck you England, definitely.  And maybe Wales.  Scotland wants nothing to do with this shitshow.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Thursday, December 12, 2019, 23:57:10
Well, we've got clarity. The next five years are entirely in the hands of the Tories and those who supported them.

Good luck, little island.  :bye:

So kind of you to wish us well from your european haven



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, December 13, 2019, 00:08:25
So kind of you to wish us well from your european haven


Well quite. I could be feeling smug, but I’m mainly just sad about the state of a country I used to know.

I think you’re making a historic mistake.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: singingiiiffy on Friday, December 13, 2019, 00:35:13
good result. glad there is a majority to progress


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Friday, December 13, 2019, 00:41:44
Well quite. I could be feeling smug, but I’m mainly just sad about the state of a country I used to know.

I think you’re making a historic mistake.

Seems to me that Brexit areas may have repeated their yes vote and that means Tory for most even in Lab heartlands.





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, December 13, 2019, 00:44:26
Wow. Worse than I expected but Brexit, biased media and Corbyn's leadership seem the reason Labour have dive bombed. The 88% of lies and Boris being an utter cunt are happily ignored by the public.

On the bright side, if Boris delivers what he has said he will then we can't complain, can we. Apart from killing foxes for fun and the planet being destroyed of course. Hooray!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Friday, December 13, 2019, 00:55:24
So the count down has started on the death of the NHS and to how long the Blues are going to take to come up with policies to help out areas they've never held before.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, December 13, 2019, 01:12:43
Well, we've got clarity. The next five years are entirely in the hands of the Tories and those who supported them.

Good luck, little island.  :bye:

How's the strikes going?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, December 13, 2019, 02:44:36
Certainly seems like Corbyn now has a protest party to match his strengths.  At least this should sort out a farcical retreat from Europe, less boats this time though.  People with decent minds need to figure out a more sensible approach to offsetting Populism.  You cant just go around claiming everyone else is stupid and not expect a reaction.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, December 13, 2019, 06:26:25
How's the strikes going?

Feels nice living in a vibrant democracy, thanks. How is the defence of workers’ rights going over there?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, December 13, 2019, 06:48:16
The people have spoken. Have a good day everyone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Friday, December 13, 2019, 06:55:47
What I cannot understand is why people wouldn’t want a better health system, better climate controls, higher pay, cheaper transport.

It seems just mental!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, December 13, 2019, 06:58:05
We're hardly a struggling country when you take a look around the world. People need to get a grip.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, December 13, 2019, 07:04:51
Feels nice living in a vibrant democracy, thanks. How is the defence of workers’ rights going over there?
Bloody hell. This from a country where the French far right under Le Pen got more seats in the EU election than Macron.

Just what direction does that show?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Friday, December 13, 2019, 07:05:29
Don’t think you realise how far the uk is slipping behind. As someone on the outside looking in it’s startling. When I was living in the uk it’s the norm you’re used to stuff. You come back and visit and it’s quite horrifying how much it’s changed. Simple things like litter, graffiti, weeds in the pavement. I know none of you want to hear that and I hate saying it but it’s really depressing and I can see it only getting worse


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 13, 2019, 07:05:43
The people have spoken. Have a good day everyone.
They have indeed, the slightly more vexing question is whether Scotland and Nord Ireland will get what their people spoke.

Sent from my SM-J330FN


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, December 13, 2019, 07:09:43
Don’t think you realise how far the uk is slipping behind. As someone on the outside looking in it’s startling. When I was living in the uk it’s the norm you’re used to stuff. You come back and visit and it’s quite horrifying how much it’s changed. Simple things like litter, graffiti, weeds in the pavement. I know none of you want to hear that and I hate saying it but it’s really depressing and I can see it only getting worse

I agree about the litter, graffiti and crap roads, but unemployment in Spain is 14%, 8.5% in France and the UK is 3%.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Friday, December 13, 2019, 07:24:40
I’m not wanting to get in an argument etc.
the whole we have the “best” in the world statements is utter shite. Education, health, transportation, energy prices etc. the uk has fallen dramatically in the last 10 years


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 13, 2019, 07:42:35
I agree about the litter, graffiti and crap roads, but unemployment in Spain is 14%, 8.5% in France and the UK is 3%.
The 3% bollocks is a total myth, you only have to work an hour a week to be considered employed under the recording method.

Sent from my SM-J330FN


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, December 13, 2019, 08:03:51
They have indeed, the slightly more vexing question is whether Scotland and Nord Ireland will get what their people spoke.

Sent from my SM-J330FN

Given time it will be revealed won’t it. Personally I do not believe either will be better off being ruled by the EU. They have devolved power, they may end up with a bit more power if they play their cards right. The EU ATM does not need two more members taking out of a budget that is going to come under a lot of financial tress going forward. The desire to be ruled by Brussels is driven by a ‘dislike’ of the English more than anything else.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 13, 2019, 08:22:16
We're hardly a struggling country when you take a look around the world. People need to get a grip.

I think people struggling will be relieved to hear that. Maybe the homeless, and families that can't afford to feed their kids should get a grip?

I'm OK here, it won't affect me. I might even benefit if the pound continues to rise (which I doubt).

I'd probably be OK if I was in the UK as well, I've always had a stable job. There'd be enough people below me in the pecking order likely to lose out before I would. I'd be OK.

But I'm not in the UK anyway. I'm in Thailand with a fairly stable income and have access to an affordable (and decent) healthcare system. (I wonder how many people in the UK can say that in 5 years' time). In the next few years or so I hope to be a business owner that can call myself well-off. I'm OK.

I'm OK. And you're OK.

It's all those that are not OK that I feel for. Things are only likely to get worse for them, and a lot more people are likely to end up in their position as well. Hurrah for foodbanks.

And it's all avoidable.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, December 13, 2019, 08:24:31
As someone who hasn't been in Swindon for years I think you'd be extremely shocked at the town nowadays. It really is a shit hole.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Friday, December 13, 2019, 08:31:26
I’m just looking forward to the inevitable calls for a ‘People’s Election’  :D



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 13, 2019, 08:34:38
As someone who hasn't been in Swindon for years I think you'd be extremely shocked at the town nowadays. It really is a shit hole.


So I gather.

And the people of Swindon continue to vote in a Tory council as well. The mind is boggled.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, December 13, 2019, 08:41:23
It's a shame labour didn't get in, they would have fixed everything  ::)


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, December 13, 2019, 08:42:55
The 3% bollocks is a total myth, you only have to work an hour a week to be considered employed under the recording method.

Sent from my SM-J330FN

No comment about the Spanish or French figures? Handy that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, December 13, 2019, 08:43:10
I completely understand that people who voted to leave (mainly in the midlands and the north of England) want Brexit. But their constituencies were ripped apart by the conservatives historically and they are now placing the next 5 years in Boris' hands to ensure that they get the Brexit that they voted for.

Desperate times and desperate measures i guess. I just hope that these people don't live (or die) to regret their decision.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 13, 2019, 08:43:38
They would have at least fucking tried.

Ah well. At least the rich are going to get richer. Good for them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Friday, December 13, 2019, 08:44:08
Oh dear. That was a big ‘fuck off’ to Jeremy Corbyn and his vile politics 😂. No doubt Paul D and his lefty bum chums cornflakes are extra salty this morning with all those tears.

x


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, December 13, 2019, 08:49:17
Gutted for Dennis Skinner and Laura Pidcock, particularly this morning. Two people I hold in high regard.
The knives are out and the blame game has begun within Labour. It is clear to me that the public don't want socialist values. Everything is about money and I'm alright Jack. Division and racism is rocketing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, December 13, 2019, 08:50:26
I’m just looking forward to the inevitable calls for a ‘People’s Election’  :D



My thoughts exactly. Clearly people didn’t know what they were voting for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, December 13, 2019, 08:52:02
Oh dear. That was a big ‘fuck off’ to Jeremy Corbyn and his vile politics 😂. No doubt Paul D and his lefty bum chums cornflakes are extra salty this morning with all those tears.

x

What is it about right wingers and the use of homophobic slurs against people they don’t agree with? Odd.

Cc Legends Lounge



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, December 13, 2019, 08:52:12
They would have at least fucking tried.

Ah well. At least the rich are going to get richer. Good for them.


As they did under Blair.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, December 13, 2019, 08:53:33
What is it about right wingers and the use of homophobic slurs against people they don’t agree with? Odd.

Cc Legends Lounge



I can read thank you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, December 13, 2019, 08:56:34
I can read thank you.

Thank you for confirming.

I recall you using a similar slur on here although you spelt “boy” incorrectly IIRC


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:00:56
Thank you for confirming.

I recall you using a similar slur on here although you spelt “boy” incorrectly IIRC

I did. Obviously my reading is better than me spllin.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:04:37
Rather amusing that the left dish it out in lorry loads, get a spoonful back and OMG the world is collapsing in on itself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:16:09
I completely understand that people who voted to leave (mainly in the midlands and the north of England) want Brexit. But their constituencies were ripped apart by the conservatives historically and they are now placing the next 5 years in Boris' hands to ensure that they get the Brexit that they voted for.

Desperate times and desperate measures i guess. I just hope that these people don't live (or die) to regret their decision.

When they looked to Labour for a clear Brexit policy going forward it was a nothing policy.

Massive fuck up from Labour


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:21:33
has Corbyn resigned yet?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:24:35
No comment about the Spanish or French figures? Handy that.

I am going to shock you here, I am not an expert on the way that unemployment is calculated in either France nor Spain, however I spoke to someone regarding this very issue in the UK just last week as they were also trying to portray the UK as some sort of employment utoipia.

Research suggests real UK figure should be around 13%

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/17/unemployment-figures-should-be-millions-higher-says-research


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:26:34
Oh dear. That was a big ‘fuck off’ to Jeremy Corbyn and his vile politics 😂. No doubt Paul D and his lefty bum chums cornflakes are extra salty this morning with all those tears.

x

Cornflakes?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:26:42
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Jo Swinson yet


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:27:37
has Corbyn resigned yet?

To be fair he has given himself a 5 year window in which to do so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:30:45
I am going to shock you here, I am not an expert on the way that unemployment is calculated in either France nor Spain, however I spoke to someone regarding this very issue in the UK just last week as they were also trying to portray the UK as some sort of employment utoipia.

Research suggests real UK figure should be around 13%

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/17/unemployment-figures-should-be-millions-higher-says-research

One of the things that may well have been revealed to the public had Boris and the tories been scrutinised effectively. 

At least we did get to find out how he butters his scones. The stuff the public really needed to know.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:35:58
When they looked to Labour for a clear Brexit policy going forward it was a nothing policy.

Massive fuck up from Labour

Absolutely. Labour played an awful campaign. In my eyes, their manifesto shows a lot more positive policies than the Tories, but that was never going to be enough with Brexit and Corbyn involved. Huge own goal from them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:37:31
Corbyn clearly has to go. He should be pushed out if he won't go willingly.

But who to replace him? The tories are going to play every dirty trick in the book so the opposition needs somebody with a bit of grit about them; somebody that can play a bit dirty as well if needed. I thought Barry Gardiner did well this campaign. Whoever it is is going to need to be media savvy as well because they'll be the next target to be vilified by the pro-tory press.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:38:24
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Jo Swinson yet

Crap campaign, got largely ignored by the media after the first week, although she was put under considerably greater scrutiny than the PM was, a case study that being a good MP does not necessarily make you a decent leader (see also Farron T). No idea who her replacement will be as it needs to be sorted sharpish, would probably have been Berger is she had got in (less said about that the better) now possibly Moran.

Comparing her speech to Corbyns was interesting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:44:48
To put the collapse in the north into perspective.

Labour majorities in red wall seats in 1997:

Sedgefield: 25,143
Leigh: 24,496
Bishop Auckland: 21,064
Redcar: 21,664
Workington: 19,656
Bassetlaw: 17,460
Great Grimsby: 16,244
Darlington: 16,025
Wakefield: 14,604
Scunthorpe: 14,173
Clwyd South: 13,810

All have gone blue now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:47:37
When they looked to Labour for a clear Brexit policy going forward it was a nothing policy.

Massive fuck up from Labour
Quite. And Cobyn, as I've been saying consistently, is just toxic. At least we'll see the back of him. Hopefully he takes his overgrown student Trots with him. Labour have probably got a decade now to sort themselves out and work out whether they actually want to be in govt so they can improve people's lives or just sit in the corner whinging

As for the rest, well, the county has had it's say as they say. No need for a second referendum, the public have clearly voted to "Get Brexit Done". Whether they like how that actually turns out, or all the baggage that comes with it, we'll see.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:48:14
 The big questions are now if the Tories can move even further to the right.  Will the crypto fascists settle for Johnson's WA, or will they be hankering for No Deal in late 2020?  Will there be a return to the bullet and bomb in NI?  Will Scotland cede from the Union.

Big issues and ones which will require competent government.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:51:34
I've just seen the country map.... and its almost a blue-wash! Thats insane. Even Redcar voted blue.


The main take away for me though is that this crushing defeat for Labour has been dealt by what I would consider a bunch of cretins on the Conservative side. I mean I am glad Labour haven't got in both because I think we need continuity right now and because their policies didn't even stand up to even gentle scrutiny with a solar powered casio calculator. But Boris isn't a particularly likeable chap for me; the wittering buffoon shtick doesn't do it for me and the rest of them are out of touch....

...But just how far out of touch do you have to be to get utterly crushed by those jokers? Crazy.


Wasn't Corbyn, when originally voted in as an MP(??), put up as a bit of a joke to fill an empty spot? I remember seeing the faces of the party members when it backfired and he won. Now him and his stooges have topped the party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:53:19
The big questions are now if the Tories can move even further to the right.  Will the crypto fascists settle for Johnson's WA, or will they be hankering for No Deal in late 2020?  Will there be a return to the bullet and bomb in NI?  Will Scotland cede from the Union.

Big issues and ones which will require competent government.....

Today, hopefully Boris will start to re-build the political divide, his policies are really quite central and not far right as Labour labelled it.

In many previous elections his manifesto could have been bracketed similar to a Labour manifesto, it was only the far left Labour Party that tried to make out it was right wing.

Boris is not everyones cup of tea, but he's hopefully someone that can now take our country forward.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 13, 2019, 10:02:06
The big questions are now if the Tories can move even further to the right.  Will the crypto fascists settle for Johnson's WA, or will they be hankering for No Deal in late 2020?  Will there be a return to the bullet and bomb in NI?  Will Scotland cede from the Union.

Big issues and ones which will require competent government.....

Johnsons WA goes through in January (if not before now), we then have 12 months till December to agree a deal, setting out our future relationships. I have not seen anyone who has been involved in intercountry trad deals etc suggesting there is a cat in hells chance of geting it sorted by December 2010, so I suspect no deal is pretty much inevitable now.

Its going to be interesting to see how he keeps all the plates spinning, he was basically put in by the working class vote (who obviously have different aspirations to the hedge fund managers and Russian Oligarchs) so now he has a very diverse supporter base that its going to be nigh impossible to keep all happy.

They cannot keep him in a fridge indefinitely and what with his habit of being a liability (well known in the party) I would not be at all surprised to see a different PM in place come 12 months time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 13, 2019, 10:03:40
Wasn't Corbyn, when originally voted in as an MP(??), put up as a bit of a joke to fill an empty spot? I remember seeing the faces of the party members when it backfired and he won. Now him and his stooges have topped the party.

It was the leadership election, I recall he was nominated as it was thought there should be a  left winger on the ballot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 13, 2019, 10:03:47
The main take away for me though is that this crushing defeat for Labour has been dealt by what I would consider a bunch of cretins on the Conservative side. I mean I am glad Labour haven't got in both because I think we need continuity right now and because their policies didn't even stand up to even gentle scrutiny with a solar powered casio calculator. But Boris isn't a particularly likeable chap for me; the wittering buffoon shtick doesn't do it for me and the rest of them are out of touch....

...But just how far out of touch do you have to be to get utterly crushed by those jokers? Crazy.
Been saying that for weeks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 13, 2019, 10:04:28
It was the leadership election, I recall he was nominated as it was thought there should be a right winger on the ballot.
*left winger. But yes, that was why he was there. But the PLP didn't account for how left wing the membership had become


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 13, 2019, 10:10:41
Been saying that for weeks.

Johnson only got c.1.2% more of the vote than May got in 2017 whilst the Labour vote was down over 8%.

It appears that Labour lost it more than the Tories won it!

*left winger. But yes, that was why he was there. But the PLP didn't account for how left wing the membership had become

Already corrected!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, December 13, 2019, 10:54:42
I hope Corbyn, Abbott and others now start legal proceedings against numerous people for libel, slander etc, etc.
Take a step back from frontline politics and go after the bastards


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Friday, December 13, 2019, 11:26:16
Feels nice living in a vibrant democracy, thanks. How is the defence of workers’ rights going over there?

How are the imigrant community in Marseille looking from your house in Provance


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, December 13, 2019, 11:55:33
You can't beat the politics thread for losing karma points.  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Friday, December 13, 2019, 12:15:04
Should we be shocked by this result - I don`t think so really - this country is amazingly accepting of all greeds, and as has been shown in the past it`s the party that offers a central view not an extreme - Jeremy Corbyn is unelectable everyone knows that - yet he is apparently untouchable - how ridiculous is that - this country doesn`t want a Marxist government.
Boris has many faults but I believe he will quickly get into a centre party position - my personal hope is that those who really do need help get it..
In the meantime Labour needs to rebrand and get David Milliband on board so there is a decent opposition to Boris & Co..

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 13, 2019, 12:26:35

Boris has many faults but I believe he will quickly get into a centre party position - my personal hope is that those who really do need help get it..
 

I do hope so, he has made promises about improving things and I will certainly look at him in a different light if he does.

Just a shame he's about as trustworthy as those ads that tell me there's a supermodel within a mile of me gagging for my member.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, December 13, 2019, 12:30:46
We can only judge Boris on his past, a dodgy list of dishonesty and bigotry.. It doesn't exactly fill me with hope.
He's made bold promises so let's wait and see how this goes...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, December 13, 2019, 12:31:00
How are the imigrant community in Marseille looking from your house in Provance

I know England very well and I know France intimately. If you don't, then don't just try random stabs in the dark.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 13, 2019, 12:31:55
Today, hopefully Boris will start to re-build the political divide, his policies are really quite central and not far right as Labour labelled it.

Boris has many faults but I believe he will quickly get into a centre party position - my personal hope is that those who really do need help get it.

A couple of similar comments hoping that Johnson starts building a consensus.  My fear is that he will now find this extremely difficult having moved his party a long way to the right in order to get elected.  There has been a purge of centre right/moderate Tories, while the right wing faction represented by the likes of Mark Francois and Rees-Mogg has grown considerably.  The Tory party today is now quite different to anything that has gone before it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, December 13, 2019, 12:33:07
I'm glad the Green lady retained her seat and with an increased majority.
Must be a unique demographic and outlook there for that not be mirrored elsewhere.

Corbyn saying "process of reflection" read locating a successor of similar ilk.

The next Labour leader probably needs to be a woman, from the Midlands or the North preferably with not too many skeletons in the cupboard for the media to get their teeth into.

Swindon North. My word. :no:

It is what it is. Hopefully the Tories can find it within themselves to look after the new fan base and their communities.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Friday, December 13, 2019, 12:33:55
The salt on here from the deluded lefties is comedy gold. Please keep posting your sob stories here 😂

I love the British people for this result


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, December 13, 2019, 12:34:57
- this country is amazingly accepting of all greeds

Probably why the Tories tend to do so well..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, December 13, 2019, 13:09:57
The salt on here from the deluded lefties is comedy gold. Please keep posting your sob stories here 😂

I love the British people for this result

I'm not sure I've read much of that.  Plenty of recognition that their personal views do not currently match the general consensus of the population, which is largely being driven by a single issue.  To be fair, that single issue is big enough in the world of politics today that it probably needs resolving, so this at least gives a chance for that to happen.  The UK never had a majority pro-actively in favour of the EU membership, so it stands to reason those vehemently against it would vote on that issue,and those who probably voted Remain but historically would have voted Conservative stayed true to their own values on other issues.

The comments about building a consensus made me laugh a bit though.  For starters, the FPTP systems means you don;t need a majority behind you, second, Populism, which is largely where the Conservative Party has headed, relies on fear for the support to hold strong.  I've seen it play out here for the past 3 years.  I'm not passing judgement on the pro's and con's of the concept, just that it relies on pointing at some sort of injustice to work.  So I doubt Boris will heal a divided country.  More likely the election five years from now post Brexit will find a new bogeyman that the country needs defending from.  One very good reason Corbyn should be exiting the building today.  Being seen to be Socialist/Marxist is going to be enough to keep Labout from having any chance, let alone actually wanting to be.  The Country is far more loaded on the Populist side than that side.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, December 13, 2019, 13:10:34
Anyone else seen the tweets from Katie Hopkins and the responses to them?
Hate and racism is bigger than it's been for years. I think it will increase further. Racial incident's at football matches after years of improvement are now becoming more common too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, December 13, 2019, 13:44:06
It's not bigger it's got a public forum, it's always been there.  Populism relies on things like it - someone somewhere that is different to you is keeping you down.  Either it's someone who doesn't look like you getting better treatment in the name of PC, or it's an immigrant taking an opportunity away from you, or an Elite taking away your ladder and so on.  It works, it's not just the UK seeing this.  The modern world of partially anonymous/online behaviour enables it to grow.  Thinking that people do not think that way is a mistake though.  Telling people they are stupid and/or wrong, doesn't tend to make them change.  The worry for me is the Labour party goes full left throttle now, that would be a big mistake for them.  For a healthy political debate, you need a range and to appeal to more people than each fringe (plus the right fringe is much bigger than the left fringe).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, December 13, 2019, 14:08:22
More to rejoice at.
https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/health-50718869?__twitter_impression=true


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 13, 2019, 15:04:13
This is not a moan about the result - the system would be just as broken if any other party had won. I felt before the election that FPTP doesn't work, and these charts highlight why.

(https://i.imgur.com/7oqAd6a.png)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Friday, December 13, 2019, 15:05:37
I know England very well and I know France intimately. If you don't, then don't just try random stabs in the dark.

Off course you do, how could i be so wrong.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 13, 2019, 15:06:42
That the greens and even the Brexit party get no seats is ridiculous. Their voters, who do make up a reasonable slice of the electorate, get no representation in parliament whatsoever. Zilch


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 13, 2019, 15:07:44
This is not a moan about the result - the system would be just as broken if any other party had won. I felt before the election that FPTP doesn't work, and these charts highlight why.

(https://i.imgur.com/7oqAd6a.png)


So even under PR, Labour would have got roughly the same and the Tories still would have had a majority, albeit a smaller one. The big losers are Farage Ltd, Lib Dems and the Greens


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 13, 2019, 15:17:49
So even under PR, Labour would have got roughly the same and the Tories still would have had a majority, albeit a smaller one.

Yet we would not have any one party being so dominant. As it is, the tories will get to trounce all over the wishes of the majority of voters with little to no resistance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, December 13, 2019, 15:24:37
Yet we would not have any one party being so dominant. As it is, the tories will get to trounce all over the wishes of the majority of voters with little to no resistance.
Isn’t that the case with whichever party forms a government with a majority?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 13, 2019, 15:26:24
Isn’t that the case with whichever party forms a government with a majority?

Well, yes.

I did start by saying that the system would be broken regardless of who won.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, December 13, 2019, 15:45:25
I think it looked very similar when Labour won in 1997 (inverse).  They did a good job then of holding the core base who maybe thought Blair was not left wing enough, but also grabbing seats where the votes were much closer.  In some ways, that success has created the current Labour Party issue, a sort of reaction to what they now hold with contempt.  You certainly don't want a two party system, that just gets even more confrontational, and you have to balance the will of the people vs. the need to Govern.  Nobody seems grown up enough to run the country without a majority.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 13, 2019, 16:33:58
There were some good results:

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/12/13/ann-widdecombe-election-defeat-gay-man-luke-pollard/?fbclid=IwAR3cU0B_q6ni4emU5wtl9IIFgjEuq_uNQEB06PMvUL_-UHo8oIWdt0t8reU


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bedford Red on Friday, December 13, 2019, 17:02:00
Bedford was the third most marginal seat before last night with an 800 majority for Labour in 2017, so when the exit poll came through i was sure it would go to the Conservatives; however whilst the majority went down to 145 Labour held on to it.

The Tories didn't help themselves by getting someone from Hertfordshire to stand as their MP.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50774549


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, December 13, 2019, 18:32:48
Quote from: pauld

]So even under PR, Labour would have got roughly the same and the Tories still would have had a majority, albeit a smaller one. The big losers are Farage Ltd, Lib Dems and the Greens

it would have been a hung parliament though.

But that's not the system we have. Labour got trounced, so that's that.

The only hope is the Johnson has such a strong majority that he steers away from the ERG position, and sees sense when the transition period needs exceeding

I won't hold my breath


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 13, 2019, 18:42:53
One of the seats taken by the tories was taken by a (now MP) who said that 'bad' tenants should be made to live in a tent and pick potatoes until they have paid off overdue rent.

No exaggeration.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 13, 2019, 18:44:57
There was another one that defended an article that said disabled people should be paid less because they should be happy for the opportunity to work and they don't understand the value of money.

I don't know if she was voted in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 13, 2019, 18:46:42
Another one said that people that need food banks should be more careful with their money, and that they should consider getting a payday loan if they are struggling.

I don't know if he was voted in. But he was tory.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 13, 2019, 18:47:07
I'm not holding my breath either.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 13, 2019, 18:57:54
There was another one that defended an article that said disabled people should be paid less because they should be happy for the opportunity to work and they don't understand the value of money.

I don't know if she was voted in.

Update...

Yes. She was elected.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-who-sparked-outrage-comments-21087665?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=mirror_main&fbclid=IwAR2WUxfYoXJ3Lg-WvAxLAdnW2rVy6sR4h0jtfmDL1f-XU7bOlsQq-RgSMPM


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Friday, December 13, 2019, 19:53:59
Went to the polling station to vote today. Very quiet, and, strangely, a lot of school kids there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Friday, December 13, 2019, 20:08:40
Denmark have said today they want access to UK fishing waters in the UK-EU trade negotiations. BJ wants a quick deal, will he roll over (as he did with the border in the Irish sea)?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 13, 2019, 20:19:32
Denmark have said today they want access to UK fishing waters in the UK-EU trade negotiations. BJ wants a quick deal, will he roll over (as he did with the border in the Irish sea)?

Having chosen to go it alone, we're about to become the junior partner in a negotiation with the EU and the junior partner in a negotiation with the US.  And Japan.  And Russia.  And China, probably.  We're about to become everyone's bitch.  #takingbackcontrol


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Friday, December 13, 2019, 20:55:03
Went to the polling station to vote today. Very quiet, and, strangely, a lot of school kids there.
......Make of that what you will.....

https://twitter.com/bobservant/status/1205417704867414016
 (https://twitter.com/bobservant/status/1205417704867414016)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Friday, December 13, 2019, 21:47:20
The comedy continues 😂 salty salty commie cunts. I’m so going to enjoy 5 years on this forum 😭😭😭


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 13, 2019, 21:51:40
please do not respond to the troll

even if your side did win, please do encourage proper discussion over wanton baiting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Friday, December 13, 2019, 23:04:09
ok


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DiV on Friday, December 13, 2019, 23:45:13
Another one said that people that need food banks should be more careful with their money, and that they should consider getting a payday loan if they are struggling.

I don't know if he was voted in. But he was tory.

Wasn’t Mr. Tomlinson was it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 10:16:21
Wasn’t Mr. Tomlinson was it?

JT's line is that they should take in a lodger.... he might have recommended the lodger using Wonga, other payday loans are available.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: STFC_Manc on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 10:27:07
There was another one that defended an article that said disabled people should be paid less because they should be happy for the opportunity to work and they don't understand the value of money.

I don't know if she was voted in.

I'm not sure you are quite quoting it correctly, it related to a sub set of disabled people.  People with learning difficulities, at the minute some won't have the opporunity to work (as they are competing with people who don't have LD), however they still contribute by volunteering etc.

But if you reduce the cost of employing people with LD's then they would be more likely to be employed.  Whether in practice it would work... I'm not sure.

I did not vote for the tories but I understand the point being raised, rather than just the headline.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 10:27:40
LABOUR PARTY DEBRIEFING:

"I just don't get it, we've spent the last 3 and a half years calling working class people fascist scum, nazi pigs, Little Englanders, Brexshitters and morons and then when you ask for their vote the bastards vote against us."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 10:36:26
I'm not sure you are quite quoting it correctly, it related to a sub set of disabled people.  People with learning difficulities, at the minute some won't have the opporunity to work (as they are competing with people who don't have LD), however they still contribute by volunteering etc.

But if you reduce the cost of employing people with LD's then they would be more likely to be employed.  Whether in practice it would work... I'm not sure.

I did not vote for the tories but I understand the point being raised, rather than just the headline.

I am quoting correctly.

She argued that some people with disabilities should be paid less for the reasons given. That is what she said.

That is fucked up. Very, very fucked up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 10:40:39
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Jo Swinson yet

No reason too. She must have still been smoking those Caribbean rizlas to think she was going to get 300+ seats to be PM or anything meaningful to cozy up to another party to power share on a ticket of two fingers up to 17.4 million voters with no redress. I’m also surprised no one ever mentioned that there must have been Lib Dem’s who voted Brexit. Equally Lib Dem’s who shuddered at the prospect of Corbyn in No.10, tactical voting can work in more ways than was being espoused in the run up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 10:48:54
LABOUR PARTY DEBRIEFING:

"I just don't get it, we've spent the last 3 and a half years calling working class people fascist scum, nazi pigs, Little Englanders, Brexshitters and morons and then when you ask for their vote the bastards vote against us."


That was the tip of a humongous iceberg but well put.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: STFC_Manc on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 10:51:54
I am quoting correctly.

She argued that some people with disabilities should be paid less for the reasons given. That is what she said.

That is fucked up. Very, very fucked up.

Have you actually watched the video? She clearly states it's about people with learning disabilites... I like how you have read the mirror headline and not actually watched the video.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 10:57:19
Have you actually watched the video?

Yes, I have. More than once. I literally gave a link to it.

She clearly states it's about people with learning disabilites...

Yes. Yes she did. She did say that. That she said it is the entire bleedin' problem.

Do you really think that what she said is OK?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 10:59:01
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTdz0Lnt/77390685-872709973147858-3721702226998067200-n.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: STFC_Manc on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:00:33
Another one said that people that need food banks should be more careful with their money, and that they should consider getting a payday loan if they are struggling.

I don't know if he was voted in. But he was tory.

Again not quoting the full story...

From the mirror

"He told voters: "When they go down to the food bank, what they struggle with is maybe being able to manage their budget...

"A thing that can help them is how we can offer them some advice and support.

"When people are really, really down, and when people haven't got the money, one of the things they can look to do is to get a payday loan or something like that.

"If I'm in Parliament, as a private member's bill, if I ever get the opportunity, one of the things I'd like to do is to try and stop payday loan advertising because that just makes the whole problem worse.

"What we need to do is to be able to support these people and helping them understand budgets and money is a really useful thing and it's something we can bring into schools as well."

So while he does say that and I disagree with that 100%, he then goes on to say he will try to reduce advertising of payday loans (which is good) and help support/teach people about budgetting, which again is a positive.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:00:35
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTdz0Lnt/77390685-872709973147858-3721702226998067200-n.jpg)

Stealing that.

Too many people on my timeline are blocking each other over it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:02:36


So while he does say that and I disagree with that 100%, he then goes on to say he will try to reduce advertising of payday loans (which is good) and help support/teach people about budgetting, which again is a positive.

Do you honestly not see the problem?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: STFC_Manc on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:02:41
Yes, I have. More than once. I literally gave a link to it.

Yes. Yes she did. She did say that. That she said it is the entire bleedin' problem.

Do you really think that what she said is OK?

Did you read what I posted on the previous reply?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:04:03
Did you read what I posted on the previous reply?

Yes.

Yes I did.

Do you honestly not see the problem?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: STFC_Manc on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:05:13
Do you honestly not see the problem?

About help supporting people with budgetting/planning and understanding money? Don't get me wrong, it won't solve all the problems, as the whole UC system isn't right.  But again, if you read what I said it was a positive? not that it solved the whole issue.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: STFC_Manc on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:05:57
Yes.

Yes I did.

Do you honestly not see the problem?

I'm assuming you are on a wind up, thanks for playing


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:06:35
So that's a no. You don't see the problem.

I have nothing more to say to you.

Fucking poor people. If only they would stop being poor.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: STFC_Manc on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:11:07
So that's a no. You don't see the problem.

I have nothing more to say to you.

Fucking poor people. If only they would stop being poor.

I'm not sure I ever said that the whole quotes were good, I was trying to bring a bit of balance and quote the whole article or video...

You have again proven my point that you bring your own views to a discussion without looking at the whole picture.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:13:21
Heavens to Betsy!

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Tory Britain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: STFC_Manc on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:16:58
Heavens to Betsy!

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Tory Britain.

Thanks for the well reasoned discussion, it's been a pleasure.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:27:31
Heavens to Betsy!

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Tory Britain.

It's always worth remembering that the anti Tory vote was higher than the pro Tory vote.... meaning that in a given football ground, pub etc you're still more likely to find people for whom Johnson and his cabal of right wing loons are anathema. 

OK FPTP gives the power to govern, and now we'll rapidly get to see if unicorns exist or not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:38:45
OK.

I'll make a bit more of an effort.

How are people supposed to budget with money that they don't have?

What if their income does not meet their expenses?
What if they are already limiting their expenditure to the point where they are paying as little as they possibly can to survive, but they still don't have enough.

What are those people supposed to do?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: STFC_Manc on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:42:56
OK.

I'll make a bit more of an effort.

How are people supposed to budget with money that they don't have?

What if their income does not meet their expenses?
What if they are already limiting their expenditure to the point where they are paying as little as they possibly can to survive, but they still don't have enough.

What are those people supposed to do?

As I said in a reply, I don't agree with UC and what that has done.  I was merely bringing a wider view, lots of people have issues with managing money for lots of reasons and advice on budgetting/managing your money better would be useful.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: woolster on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:49:38
LABOUR PARTY DEBRIEFING:

"I just don't get it, we've spent the last 3 and a half years calling working class people fascist scum, nazi pigs, Little Englanders, Brexshitters and morons and then when you ask for their vote the bastards vote against us."

.
You also follow Mr Hirst on twitter  :wink:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:50:24
As I said in a reply, I don't agree with UC and what that has done.  I was merely bringing a wider view, lots of people have issues with managing money for lots of reasons and advice on budgetting/managing your money better would be useful.

You didn't answer the question.

How is somebody supposed to budget with money that they don't have?

Let's say they need 100 quid to survive but they only have 80 quid. They can't 'budget' because every penny of their income goes on what they need to survive on food etc. They are already spending as little as they possibly can and sometimes go hungry because that have no money for food.

They have nothing left from the previous month because they were also short that month. And the month before that. And so on.

What are they supposed to do?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: STFC_Manc on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:52:56
You didn't answer the question.

How is somebody supposed to budget with money that they don't have?

Let's say they need 100 quid to survive but they only have 80 quid. They can't 'budget' because every penny of their income goes on what they need to survive on food etc. They are already spending as little as they possibly can and sometimes go hungry because that have no money for food.

They have nothing left from the previous month because they were also short that month. And the month before that. And so on.

What are they supposed to do?

I didn't answer the question because you are making a valid point. I have stated I don't agree with UC (the reason why), which is what you have missed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 11:59:24
Quote
I was merely bringing a wider view, lots of people have issues with managing money for lots of reasons and advice on budgetting/managing your money better would be useful.

BUT WHAT IF THEY HAVE NO MONEY TO MANAGE?

Now you have made me use my shouty voice. Please answer the fucking question.

Could you imagine not being able to feed your kids only for some cunt to say you need to manage your money better? (money that you don't have)





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 12:00:27
Why are you saying I have made a good point but you are still defending what that prick said?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 12:25:34
Honest question:
Universal credit has been a disaster to those in need because of the way it's been implemented, delays in payment, cruel assessments, underfunding etc. But properly funded and run, is it is it inherently a bad system or is it better than the previous proliferation of benefits?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bedford Red on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 14:07:47
Properly funded and run, and reworked so it is as fair as the systems it is replacing, it then works better.

So, rather than claiming Child tax credits/working tax credits through HMRC, Housing Benefit through your Local Council, and for example Income Support through DWP, you claim it all through one place.

However, having worked in Benefits for 15+ years, it is a disaster. It is currently costing four times as much to process a Universal Credit claim as a Housing Benefit claim (was supposed to save on admin). There are so many mistakes it is unbelievable, i'm in contact with the manager at the local DWP office on a daily basis to point them out and get them corrected.

Making people wait 5 1/2 weeks for any money is just totalling wrong. Yes, they can now get advances, but that is only taken out of the following payments.

I sit in front of the bank of desks dealing with foodbanks etc, and the phone calls on a daily basis would make you depressed, the vast majority are genuine cases caused by hardship. And this has increased loads since Universal Credit was launched, and it's not properly rolled out yet.

Before it is, i would hope the government would change payments to fortnightly (as per previous benefits), make the payments the same as previous benefits (for example a couple claiming Jobseeker's allowance at the couple rate get less claiming as a couple on Universal Credit), get the software to work properly (long shot for any government project i know), and trial the full rollout in more deprived areas to low numbers of people, to make sure the full rollout will work properly. They are currently trialing it in Harrogate, once of the most affluant areas in Britain.

I'm already seeing vulnerable people fall through the cracks quite often, as the support isn't out there as it used to be due to funding cuts, and i'm very concerned about the full rollout being a disaster.

But i'll reiterate, done properly and fairly it should make life easier for people claiming, that was one of the points, but it isn't doing that at the moment.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: STFC_Manc on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 19:40:04
Why are you saying I have made a good point but you are still defending what that prick said?

I was never defending what he said, I was just quoting his words rather than the headline.

If your left bias doesn't allow a true reflection, then that's your problem


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 21:31:36

Properly funded and run, and reworked so it is as fair as the systems it is replacing, it then works better.

So, rather than claiming Child tax credits/working tax credits through HMRC, Housing Benefit through your Local Council, and for example Income Support through DWP, you claim it all through one place.

However, having worked in Benefits for 15+ years, it is a disaster. It is currently costing four times as much to process a Universal Credit claim as a Housing Benefit claim (was supposed to save on admin). There are so many mistakes it is unbelievable, i'm in contact with the manager at the local DWP office on a daily basis to point them out and get them corrected.

Making people wait 5 1/2 weeks for any money is just totalling wrong. Yes, they can now get advances, but that is only taken out of the following payments.

I sit in front of the bank of desks dealing with foodbanks etc, and the phone calls on a daily basis would make you depressed, the vast majority are genuine cases caused by hardship. And this has increased loads since Universal Credit was launched, and it's not properly rolled out yet.

Before it is, i would hope the government would change payments to fortnightly (as per previous benefits), make the payments the same as previous benefits (for example a couple claiming Jobseeker's allowance at the couple rate get less claiming as a couple on Universal Credit), get the software to work properly (long shot for any government project i know), and trial the full rollout in more deprived areas to low numbers of people, to make sure the full rollout will work properly. They are currently trialing it in Harrogate, once of the most affluant areas in Britain.

I'm already seeing vulnerable people fall through the cracks quite often, as the support isn't out there as it used to be due to funding cuts, and i'm very concerned about the full rollout being a disaster.

But i'll reiterate, done properly and fairly it should make life easier for people claiming, that was one of the points, but it isn't doing that at the moment.

As always, as with most government project developments, what is a good idea in principle turns into shambles. A haphazard design, very little planning and plainly not enough consultation with end users. For example how could anyone have thought that the cutover process from one system to another leaving some without cover was good enough to allow it to rolled out, shocking.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Saturday, December 14, 2019, 21:57:02
Properly funded and run, and reworked so it is as fair as the systems it is replacing, it then works better.

So, rather than claiming Child tax credits/working tax credits through HMRC, Housing Benefit through your Local Council, and for example Income Support through DWP, you claim it all through one place.

However, having worked in Benefits for 15+ years, it is a disaster. It is currently costing four times as much to process a Universal Credit claim as a Housing Benefit claim (was supposed to save on admin). There are so many mistakes it is unbelievable, i'm in contact with the manager at the local DWP office on a daily basis to point them out and get them corrected.

Making people wait 5 1/2 weeks for any money is just totalling wrong. Yes, they can now get advances, but that is only taken out of the following payments.

I sit in front of the bank of desks dealing with foodbanks etc, and the phone calls on a daily basis would make you depressed, the vast majority are genuine cases caused by hardship. And this has increased loads since Universal Credit was launched, and it's not properly rolled out yet.

Before it is, i would hope the government would change payments to fortnightly (as per previous benefits), make the payments the same as previous benefits (for example a couple claiming Jobseeker's allowance at the couple rate get less claiming as a couple on Universal Credit), get the software to work properly (long shot for any government project i know), and trial the full rollout in more deprived areas to low numbers of people, to make sure the full rollout will work properly. They are currently trialing it in Harrogate, once of the most affluant areas in Britain.

I'm already seeing vulnerable people fall through the cracks quite often, as the support isn't out there as it used to be due to funding cuts, and i'm very concerned about the full rollout being a disaster.

But i'll reiterate, done properly and fairly it should make life easier for people claiming, that was one of the points, but it isn't doing that at the moment.

Thanks for this. Great to have such a clear insider’s view. This looks exactly like what happens when a basically good idea gets caught up with politically expedient implementation deadlines and too little care for those affected.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Sunday, December 15, 2019, 10:20:37
Properly funded and run, and reworked so it is as fair as the systems it is replacing, it then works better.

Thanks Bedford. That's what I thought. I wondered why Labour were plannng to tear it all up and start again - surely that would bring even more administrative confusion and inefficiency.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bedford Red on Sunday, December 15, 2019, 10:55:42
Thanks Bedford. That's what I thought. I wondered why Labour were plannng to tear it all up and start again - surely that would bring even more administrative confusion and inefficiency.

It probably would, most things do from what i've seen. However it would have ended up with a fairer system, slightly more complicated, but not much more than Universal Credit is (which it shouldn't be).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, December 16, 2019, 08:03:57
£1.20 v €


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, December 16, 2019, 08:08:35
£1.20 v €
Woo hoo! Xmas is back on!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 16, 2019, 10:09:47
On a lighter note its been amusing to read some of the issues with polling stations and counts due to the short notice and venue problems;

The Cornwall count had to be moved as there was a delay in getting the boxes in from the Scilly Isles due to the weather, and someone had booked the hall for Badminton at mid day on Friday;

Somewhere in south Wales they had to move the polling station as the local WI had the village hall booked for their Christmas Party and told them to do one when they tried to cancel the booking;

Apparently the Leeds? result was announced so quickly as the counters were told to get a move on as they had to get the hall cleared to set up for a Venga Boys gig (Insert gag about buses here).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, December 16, 2019, 11:05:48
Woo hoo! Xmas is back on!

See, every cloud has a silver lining 🤣🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 16, 2019, 12:06:17
Hmmmmm  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/emily-thornberry-caroline-flint-legal-action-labour-brexit-interview-stupid-a9248436.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, December 16, 2019, 12:10:33
Hmmmmm  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/emily-thornberry-caroline-flint-legal-action-labour-brexit-interview-stupid-a9248436.html
That "period of reflection" is going well then


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 16, 2019, 12:49:55
https://www.indy100.com/article/jarvis-cocker-christmas-number-one-running-world-general-election-9248251


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Monday, December 16, 2019, 17:03:53
That "period of reflection" is going well then

None of us know the truth obviously, but surely if she had said it then she would have laid low rather than raise the stakes and put it on tomorrow's front pages?  She's not that stupid; if she calls Flint a liar, sues and the "colleague" confirms Flint's story then that's her political career over.

Assuming that it is a lie then I have a lot of sympathy for Thornberry.  If she let's it go then it's there on record every time someone wants to have a pop at her, but even if she goes to court and wins then it damages her.  The "no smoke without fire" brigade have that Rochester white van tweet to point to. 

And let's be honest, is there anyone who voted Remain who hasn't at some point called leave voters stupid or equivalent?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, December 16, 2019, 17:25:01
No privatisation of the NHS?

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/west-midlands-ambulance-service-staff-16754259


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, December 16, 2019, 19:28:30
None of us know the truth obviously, but surely if she had said it then she would have laid low rather than raise the stakes and put it on tomorrow's front pages?  She's not that stupid; if she calls Flint a liar, sues and the "colleague" confirms Flint's story then that's her political career over.

Assuming that it is a lie then I have a lot of sympathy for Thornberry.  If she let's it go then it's there on record every time someone wants to have a pop at her, but even if she goes to court and wins then it damages her.  The "no smoke without fire" brigade have that Rochester white van tweet to point to. 

And let's be honest, is there anyone who voted Remain who hasn't at some point called leave voters stupid or equivalent?
The adjectives "stupid" and also "racist" exist.  They could be applied to robots but I suspect also to humans.  Remainers and Leavers. 

Isaac Asimov said something about if a lie is repeated often enough it will come to be believed.  I don't know whether Asimov was right but his theory has certainly been tested these past few years,

With 2 decades of Euro-lies in the tabloids, I am suspicious that the critical faculties of some Brexit believers in particular  have not been overly exercised.  Although tbf both Corbyn's and also  Osborne's predictions did stretch credulity too and, as you say, Thornberry's white van man comment would ensure that her reputation has not been overly damaged.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 07:14:17
Next Labour leader? Wes Streeting. Young, spoke very well when interviewed post election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 08:03:37
I think Barry Gardiner made a good account for himself. I don't knnow much else about him, though. Or any of them for that matter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Panda Paws on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 08:41:14
Next Labour leader? Wes Streeting. Young, spoke very well when interviewed post election.

My local MP - seems nice enough.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 08:48:02
Next Labour leader? Wes Streeting. Young, spoke very well when interviewed post election.

The left of the party absolutely hates him, so I wouldn't bank on that.

I'd vote for Jess Phillips. Might even join to vote for her, but suspect it's already a done deal for Long-Bailey with Rayner as deputy, which feels the wrong way round but there you go. It's interesting that Corbyn got a lot of stick for not understanding how to play politics, but internally in the Labour party the people around him have done a lot of quiet work to ensure the succession vote includes one or more of their chosen candidates.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 09:50:43
Labour's whole problem is their entirely inward-looking selection process, and indeed membership. The people who are sufficiently committed to sign up are typically some way to the left of the population. If they simply think the figurehead was wrong and select someone close to the Momentum wing of the party again, they'll have learnt nothing and will spend another decade arguing among themselves in the wilderness. Like the Tories, a lot of popular centrists were disenfranchised or kicked out under Corbyn - the current political landscape is crying out for a sensible centre-left alternative to emphasise and counterbalance the Tories' lurch to the right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 10:23:04
The nonsense of the BBC reporting that Johnson will amend his Withdrawal Bill to make an extension to trade negotiations "illegal". Any law made by parliament can be repealed or amended by parliament later. This amendment is a political gesture, nothing more, nothing less. But fair play to the BBC for continuing their role during the campaign of simply being an uncritical mouthpiece for the Johnson project. I presume they hope it will save them from the axe. It won't


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 10:24:14
£1.20 v €

Hows that £ looking now?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 10:24:24
Labour's whole problem is their entirely inward-looking selection process, and indeed membership. The people who are sufficiently committed to sign up are typically some way to the left of the population. If they simply think the figurehead was wrong and select someone close to the Momentum wing of the party again, they'll have learnt nothing and will spend another decade arguing among themselves in the wilderness. Like the Tories, a lot of popular centrists were disenfranchised or kicked out under Corbyn - the current political landscape is crying out for a sensible centre-left alternative to emphasise and counterbalance the Tories' lurch to the right.

Labour's problem is simply the population you mention has shifted more firmly to the right in recent years. Meaning significant numbers who can affect a FPTP election system. Tories have had an internal battle inside what should have been the life span of Cameron's 2015 government, to get themselves out to right to meet these people.

At that election (2015) you could buy a Labour Party mug celebrating the manifesto pledge to control immigration...

(https://middlevision.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/immigration-mug-labour.jpg)

Made no difference in terms of winning an election, and if you're going to have a political party which relies on mass membership, then those members want to feel that they're putting in their time for something worthwhile.

Where we're at atm is the question of how much further to the right can the Tories move?  Johnson sole interest was in becoming PM and then staying PM..... he'll want an easy life, and it may well be that he can tack back to the centre and produce a BRINO Norway type deal which prevents completely tanking the economy.

Set against that are the Britannia Unchained headbangers in his cabinet and the ERG loons. For those who voted for Tories here is their view of our people....

“The British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor. Whereas Indian children aspire to be doctors or businessmen, the British are more interested in football and pop music.”

Their aim is to strip out any pro worker legislation and turn England into a kind of slightly up market Bangladeshi sweat shop  low tax economy backed up by draconian laws


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 11:33:26
Labour's whole problem is their entirely inward-looking selection process, and indeed membership. The people who are sufficiently committed to sign up are typically some way to the left of the population. If they simply think the figurehead was wrong and select someone close to the Momentum wing of the party again, they'll have learnt nothing and will spend another decade arguing among themselves in the wilderness. Like the Tories, a lot of popular centrists were disenfranchised or kicked out under Corbyn - the current political landscape is crying out for a sensible centre-left alternative to emphasise and counterbalance the Tories' lurch to the right.

Given Long-Bailey is being positioned as the front runner, it seems lessons may well not have be learnt.

Not surprising at all though

Move back to the centralist-left and you have a shot of winning your core vote back, not a hard concept to grasp


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 11:36:16
Their aim is to strip out any pro worker legislation and turn England into a kind of slightly up market Bangladeshi sweat shop  low tax economy backed up by draconian laws
According to Steve Bannon, Trump's white nationalist guru, the idea is to make us "Singapore on Thames". He should know, he pretty much wrote Johson/Cummings' playbook


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 11:39:53
Move back to the centralist-left and you have a shot of winning your core vote back, not a hard concept to grasp
Not sure its at all cut and dried that the northern/midlands core vote defected because Labour wasn't "centralist" enough. The damage was done there in the very centrist Blair years as they saw a Labour govt abandon them to pander to the new southern middle class supporters that New Labour was built on. That core vote was just waiting for a political home. Brexit gave it to them. Labour, both left and centrist, failed to notice that. If Labour continues to argue as centrist vs hard left, they'll continue to fail.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 12:23:43
But fair play to the BBC for continuing their role during the campaign of simply being an uncritical mouthpiece for the Johnson project.

I saw somebody say the other day somewhere that Johnson will have to start keeping his promises because he will now be under scrutiny from the press.

Oh, how I laughed. Or cried. One of the two.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 12:36:05
Not sure its at all cut and dried that the northern/midlands core vote defected because Labour wasn't "centralist" enough. The damage was done there in the very centrist Blair years as they saw a Labour govt abandon them to pander to the new southern middle class supporters that New Labour was built on. That core vote was just waiting for a political home. Brexit gave it to them. Labour, both left and centrist, failed to notice that. If Labour continues to argue as centrist vs hard left, they'll continue to fail.

On a more fundamental level, I am not sure that the 'core vote' actually exists for Labour anymore.

The Tories are lucky as their core vote tends to be of a certain demographic/economic profile as its major driving force, complemented by floating voters depending on matters determinateb on each election. Labour is possibly more problematical and unless the party reacts to change (as Blair did) I fear they will struggle and need to catch up with the times.

For example knowing places up here where I have lived worked, Workington historically was heavy industrial all union men, offset (as many Cumbrian seats are) with a rural area which was/is heavily Tory dominated by farmers. Now the industry has gone, there is a lot of white collar work associated with Sellafield and the lower echelons of the population (in economic terms) have basically been left behind and thus resentment has formed which has been cleverly manipulated by the media to be directed towards immigrants etc as being the problem rather than the government who has been in power for the lst 10 years. Ditto the above for both Copeland (same employer changes) and Barrow where the shipyard is still there, but much more technological rather than heavy industry on the whole (Labour further affected here by the Trident issue).

This trend seems to continue across the north, Unless their is a realisation that we are campaigning in 2019 not 1919 Labour just have lost it, 500k members means jack shit in an election - its less than the votes the Greens got.

Add to the equation the influence that people like McCluskey wield in Labour and offset that by the fact that many of the floating voters Labour need are not union members and are possibly suspicious of unions motives (I am an ex union steward/rep and wouldn't trust most leaders any further than the politicians, its become a gravy train to Westminster exactly the same as the think tank route for the ambitious Tory!)

Until the penny drops that to actually achieve anything one needs power they are piddling in the wind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 12:41:31
The nonsense of the BBC reporting that Johnson will amend his Withdrawal Bill to make an extension to trade negotiations "illegal". Any law made by parliament can be repealed or amended by parliament later. This amendment is a political gesture, nothing more, nothing less. But fair play to the BBC for continuing their role during the campaign of simply being an uncritical mouthpiece for the Johnson project. I presume they hope it will save them from the axe. It won't

Parliament can only repeal if a vote to repeal passes, Tory candidates had to sign up to show their ideological purity on Brexit prior to the election, QED there will be no majority to repeal, and it only needs to stand until December 31st next year anyway as we will be out by then.

The one interesting thing is them showing their hand this early, as it gives a lot of time for organising a resistance to this within the population.

On a similar vein, the whole NHS/Trump thing is interesting, we can only flog it off the the septics (despite the fact that successive governments have been doing it for years anyway) if the US want it as part of a trade deal, any trade deal done in 9 months is unlikely and going to be crappy to say the least and come November next year there is a possibility that we may be negotiating with a Democrat President.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 13:05:15
I didn't think there should be any particular surprise about this move to "keep no-deal on the table", as they like to say, as if it's some strategic masterstroke. The mistake they make is to think that holding a gun to our own head will in any way intimidate the Europeans, who will play their usual game of running the clock down till the last minute, just like they did last time. Everyone knows that Johnson's amendment to the May deal was for presentation purposes only.

Brexit negotiators are like kids trying to play poker. When it gets close to the wire, just look how far the little UK will bend over to get some sort, almost any sort, of deal. And that's just Europe. Wait till the US get their turn...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 14:07:39
I didn't think there should be any particular surprise about this move to "keep no-deal on the table", as they like to say, as if it's some strategic masterstroke. The mistake they make is to think that holding a gun to our own head will in any way intimidate the Europeans, who will play their usual game of running the clock down till the last minute, just like they did last time. Everyone knows that Johnson's amendment to the May deal was for presentation purposes only.

Brexit negotiators are like kids trying to play poker. When it gets close to the wire, just look how far the little UK will bend over to get some sort, almost any sort, of deal. And that's just Europe. Wait till the US get their turn...

I think the problem is going to be negotiation is a two way process, we present what we want, the EU respond with what they want and we eventually meet somewhere in  the middle (assuming both sides start from a realistic pov), however, whilst the EU position has been fairly static since July 2016, as we as a nation still don't have a bloody clue what we want (bar a fuelled 747 cargo, a unicorn fluffy toy and a blue passport) the whole process is flawed from day 1.

The moderates in the Tory party have on the whole been seen off so not sure where there is scope to reign in the whim s of the ERG?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 16:58:19
Hmmmm, they could at least try....

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EL7rw8gWkAUoiza?format=jpg&name=medium)

BTW is Lindsay Hoyle the luckiest MP in parliament.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 17:27:02
BTW is Lindsay Hoyle the luckiest MP in parliament.
Or just sensed which way the wind was blowing?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 11:53:32
Hancock still trying to insist that there will be  50,000 more nurses even though they're only recruiting 31,000 because the other 19,000 are ones they will aim to retain so that will mean they are also "more". By his logic, if we do manage to retain Doyle in January we will then have 2 of him. It's insulting how stupid the govt think the public are.

And that's quite aside from the fact that they'll get nowhere near either of these targets and hope that gets quietly buried once they've garnered all the nice headlines from "50,000 more nurses"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 11:58:26
It's insulting how stupid the govt think the public are.

 H L Mencken said this some years back....

  "No-one has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.”


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 12:01:15
Hancock still trying to insist that there will be  50,000 more nurses even though they're only recruiting 31,000 because the other 19,000 are ones they will aim to retain so that will mean they are also "more". By his logic, if we do manage to retain Doyle in January we will then have 2 of him. It's insulting how stupid the govt think the public are.

And that's quite aside from the fact that they'll get nowhere near either of these targets and hope that gets quietly buried once they've garnered all the nice headlines from "50,000 more nurses"

Does that mean now that Mancock has been retained as Health Secretary, we now have two of them?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 12:06:38
Hancock still trying to insist that there will be  50,000 more nurses even though they're only recruiting 31,000 because the other 19,000 are ones they will aim to retain so that will mean they are also "more". By his logic, if we do manage to retain Doyle in January we will then have 2 of him. It's insulting how stupid the govt think the public are.

And that's quite aside from the fact that they'll get nowhere near either of these targets and hope that gets quietly buried once they've garnered all the nice headlines from "50,000 more nurses"

I never really understood why the conservatives did that - why not just say that they are recruiting 31k new nurses and will aim to retain 19k that would otherwise be lost?

I get that recruiting 50k new nurses sounds way better but surely people would see through those blatant lies? Wouldn't they?  :blowup:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 12:09:16
I never really understood why the conservatives did that - why not just say that they are recruiting 31k new nurses and will aim to retain 19k that would otherwise be lost?

I get that recruiting 50k new nurses sounds way better but surely people would see through those blatant lies? Wouldn't they? 
Exactly, by "doubling down" (to use the Trump phrase) on the lie it just makes the dishonesty more apparent and means even more people see it. Whereas I think most people would be quite happy with "We're recruiting over 30,000 and aiming to keep nearly 20,000 that would have left". But doubling down on a lie is the Bannon/Trump playbook so that's what the Tories are following these days. TBF, it seems to be working for them


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 12:17:14
Does that mean now that Mancock has been retained as Health Secretary, we now have two of them?

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 12:37:23
H L Mencken said this some years back....

  "No-one has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.”
He may well have done, in which case he was just being a snob, and I'm surprised to see you quoting him in this. I don't think that the public are stupid but that the govt think they are. I said some weeks ago that I think everyone has already "priced in" that the Tories lie on a massive scale, and some people decided to vote for them anyway either because they were more concerned about Labour getting in or because they did believe the one central promise to "Get Brexit Done"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 12:42:20
He may well have done, in which case he was just being a snob, and I'm surprised to see you quoting him in this. I don't think that the public are stupid but that the govt think they are. I said some weeks ago that I think everyone has already "priced in" that the Tories lie on a massive scale, and some people decided to vote for them anyway either because they were more concerned about Labour getting in or because they did believe the one central promise to "Get Brexit Done"

Possibly on a more simple level they didn't vote Labour as they had a leader with an approval rating of -40%?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 12:44:35
Possibly on a more simple level they didn't vote Labour as they had a leader with an approval rating of -40%?
Yes that was meant to be encompassed by "were more concerned about Labour getting in" (for a variety of reasons). But either way, I don't think the public are stupid. But it's pretty obvious the govt does.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 12:57:04
Exactly, by "doubling down" (to use the Trump phrase) on the lie it just makes the dishonesty more apparent and means even more people see it. Whereas I think most people would be quite happy with "We're recruiting over 30,000 and aiming to keep nearly 20,000 that would have left". But doubling down on a lie is the Bannon/Trump playbook so that's what the Tories are following these days. TBF, it seems to be working for them

Here is what Mancock said, he is getting evermore like Alan Partridge. 

'Every year at the moment, around 27,000 nurses leave the NHS. I want to reduce that number. Even if we didn’t have any new nurses, just by reducing the number who leave, you would end up with more nurses in the NHS. That contributes. That retention of existing nurses contributes to increasing the number of nurses in the NHS and that’s very important.

Also, we’re going to have new nurses and the combination of increasing retention, which means fewer nurses leaving and having more new nurses, including with our bursary today. So if you’re watching and you want to become a nurse and don’t think at the moment you’ve got the financial resources to do it, we are putting in place that extra support, on top of all the existing support.

The combination of reducing the number of nurses leaving and having new nurses coming through – that leads to an increase in the total number of nurses in the NHS, which is what matters from my point of view running the NHS and from a patient’s view for ensuring that there is patient care and that there are enough nurses on the ward.'


As has been pointed out elsewhere, the shock of the election is less to do with the lies that were told but more the fact that a lot of the public seem entirely unfazed by being blatantly lied to and actively seem to quite like it.

Possibly explains why cuckold pornography is so popular?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: moredonboy on Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 13:06:40
"In an ever-changing, incomprehensible world the masses had reached the point where they would, at the same time, believe everything and nothing, think that everything was possible and nothing was true... The totalitarian mass leaders based their propaganda on the correct psychological assumption that, under such conditions, one could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day, and trust that if the next day they were given irrefutable proof of their falsehood, they would take refuge in cynicism; instead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them, they would protest that they had known all along that the statement was a lie and would admire the leaders for their superior tactical cleverness." Hannah Arendt 2017


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 13:10:49
"In an ever-changing, incomprehensible world the masses had reached the point where they would, at the same time, believe everything and nothing, think that everything was possible and nothing was true... The totalitarian mass leaders based their propaganda on the correct psychological assumption that, under such conditions, one could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day, and trust that if the next day they were given irrefutable proof of their falsehood, they would take refuge in cynicism; instead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them, they would protest that they had known all along that the statement was a lie and would admire the leaders for their superior tactical cleverness." Hannah Arendt 2017

I doubt she said it in 2017, she died in the 1970's!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: moredonboy on Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 13:15:33
thanks for checking - wish I had now
still makes it even more worrying - the population has not wised up for a very long time!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 13:25:14
My reaction was slightly different.  The big worry is that the blatant lies being told - and believed - is a new phenomenon.  But the quote shows that politicians have always been inclined to do this.

Great quote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 13:26:05
thanks for checking - wish I had now
still makes it even more worrying - the population has not wised up for a very long time!


Indeed, the one thing that recent events have shown is how little history seems to be known and understood.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 13:52:24
My reaction was slightly different.  The big worry is that the blatant lies being told - and believed - is a new phenomenon.  But the quote shows that politicians have always been inclined to do this.
She was specifically talking about *totalitarian* politicians, rather than politicians in general i.e. the Soviet and Nazi regimes of the mid-20th century both of whom deployed the "Big Lie" in their propaganda. Indeed, it's generally accepted as one of the hallmarks of authoritarian regimes, the others being an assault on a free press and independent judiciary. Both are well under way in the US, and we are seeing the beginnings ("Enemies of the People" headline in the Mail, the attacks on the BBC being lined up) of this over here too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, December 19, 2019, 14:32:22
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/19/labour-tories-opposition-power

Interesting piece in the Guardian

By interesting, of course, I mean a piece that largely matches my point of view.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 20, 2019, 14:01:57
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/19/labour-tories-opposition-power

Interesting piece in the Guardian

By interesting, of course, I mean a piece that largely matches my point of view.



It was.... Likewise this is also of interest if one has an interest in ham psychology.

https://theconversation.com/why-people-vote-for-politicians-they-know-are-liars-128953


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 20, 2019, 14:09:24
It was.... Likewise this is also of interest if one has an interest in ham psychology.

https://theconversation.com/why-people-vote-for-politicians-they-know-are-liars-128953
Gammon psychology surely? ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, December 20, 2019, 17:12:26
Ok, this has got me thinking. Only a week after the election result (in which I felt personally disgraced by and now feel that I am not represented in Parliament) and I've had time to reflect a bit more. I want to ask this to people who voted similar to myself. Conservative and other party voters please feel free to chip in.

Initially though, to my left wing Pro-EU friends. I have a random hypothetical question;

Let’s say something really weird had happened in the last Tory leadership election, and a candidate supporting a second referendum had won. Let’s also say that Labour had continued to maintain a Pro-Leave stance, meaning that the Conservatives offered the only real prospect of staying in the EU.

Would you have voted Tory, assuming that you wouldn’t be able to boot them out immediately afterwards, and there would be a very good chance that we would have a Conservative government for the next five years, with (apart from Brexit) roughly similar policies to those that they have now?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, December 20, 2019, 19:14:13
Ok, this has got me thinking. Only a week after the election result (in which I felt personally disgraced by and now feel that I am not represented in Parliament) and I've had time to reflect a bit more. I want to ask this to people who voted similar to myself. Conservative and other party voters please feel free to chip in.

Initially though, to my left wing Pro-EU friends. I have a random hypothetical question;

Let’s say something really weird had happened in the last Tory leadership election, and a candidate supporting a second referendum had won. Let’s also say that Labour had continued to maintain a Pro-Leave stance, meaning that the Conservatives offered the only real prospect of staying in the EU.

Would you have voted Tory, assuming that you wouldn’t be able to boot them out immediately afterwards, and there would be a very good chance that we would have a Conservative government for the next five years, with (apart from Brexit) roughly similar policies to those that they have now?

Labour had a pro Leave stance, but negotiate a new WA and put that to a Ref.  There was the problem in trying to be honest to all opinions within the party and voters, it lacked clarity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, December 20, 2019, 19:57:24
Labour had a pro Leave stance, but negotiate a new WA and put that to a Ref.  There was the problem in trying to be honest to all opinions within the party and voters, it lacked clarity.

Yes but you haven't answered the question posed *scoff*. It does clearly state, hypothetically..."had Labour continued to maintain a Pro-Leave..."

Yet the question is an the following paragraph. No curve ball here. Because it seems a lot of us have had a good old moan about it being on the other foot (ie, the GE result), so it's interesting to know how us remain voters would've chosen to vote, in tge scemario mentioned above.

Go on Reg, set the tone and give an opinion that actually answers the question posed :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, December 20, 2019, 20:23:28
Yes but you haven't answered the question posed *scoff*. It does clearly state, hypothetically..."had Labour continued to maintain a Pro-Leave..."

Yet the question is an the following paragraph. No curve ball here. Because it seems a lot of us have had a good old moan about it being on the other foot (ie, the GE result), so it's interesting to know how us remain voters would've chosen to vote, in tge scemario mentioned above.

Go on Reg, set the tone and give an opinion that actually answers the question posed :)

it clearly states had Labour continued to maintain a pro Leave stance (hypothetically) nothing hypothetical they did.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, December 20, 2019, 20:26:49
I would find it hard to think of a situation where I would ever consider voting Tory. They might as well be Britain First compared to me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 20, 2019, 20:58:50
It's a bit of an odd question, but no I wouldn't.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, December 20, 2019, 22:04:00
it clearly states had Labour continued to maintain a pro Leave stance (hypothetically) nothing hypothetical they did.

In the fucking scenario. We didn't have a Pro-Remain Tory government but the question asks if there had been. If you don't want to answer the fucking question, then don't bother answering at all.  Stop twisiting up what was asked if you come back and say the same thing again and don't answer I'll just a assume you're being a trolly cunt because you've been on one all week. Then accuse people of bullying! No Reg, you're just being a cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, December 20, 2019, 22:09:11
It's a bit of an odd question, but no I wouldn't.

Yes it is to a degree but the idea is to create a reverse circumstance. Many are claiming that a lot of Labour Leave voters turned to Tory because the Tories favoured Brexit and Labour weren't as clear. So the scenario says that had it been, the Tories had clarity on Remaining in the EU, would Labour Remain voters have done the so called "unthinkable" and voted Tory to ensure we stayed within the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, December 20, 2019, 22:13:40
I would find it hard to think of a situation where I would ever consider voting Tory. They might as well be Britain First compared to me.

Despite any differences we may have, we share a common ground there and it would indeed be incredibly tough to vote Tory in it's current guise. The question posed does bring a difficult scenario to negotiate. Swallowing pride to ensure remaining in the EU or sticking to voting principles. I am for the most part, a Green but I had to vote  tactically in my constituency.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: singingiiiffy on Friday, December 20, 2019, 23:16:38
In the fucking scenario. We didn't have a Pro-Remain Tory government but the question asks if there had been. If you don't want to answer the fucking question, then don't bother answering at all.  Stop twisiting up what was asked if you come back and say the same thing again and don't answer I'll just a assume you're being a trolly cunt because you've been on one all week. Then accuse people of bullying! No Reg, you're just being a cunt.

fuck me. go to bed or drink some water


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, December 20, 2019, 23:52:04
fuck me. go to bed or drink some water

Sorry that the question is beyond comprehension to you and you're unable to grasp the idea of how to answer it.

Not everyone is out on the piss for "Black Eye completely and utterly rammed with wankers, Friday" but I don't know many folk in the UK who go to bed at 11.15pm on a Friday night either. Each to their own.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Saturday, December 21, 2019, 00:45:23
I would find it hard to think of a situation where I would ever consider voting Tory. They might as well be Britain First compared to me.

This and it made me realise what a bubble I live in.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Saturday, December 21, 2019, 06:15:18
I was in bed by 10pm last night, with the contents of only one 330ml can of lager inside me.

Caveat is I had to be up at 5am for a flight so I have an excuse! 8 days in the West of Ireland ahead, plenty of lovely creamy Guinness on the agenda! Can’t wait!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: singingiiiffy on Saturday, December 21, 2019, 09:31:10
Sorry that the question is beyond comprehension to you and you're unable to grasp the idea of how to answer it.

Not everyone is out on the piss for "Black Eye completely and utterly rammed with wankers, Friday" but I don't know many folk in the UK who go to bed at 11.15pm on a Friday night either. Each to their own.

it was a suggestion for you.

its obviously high priority on a friday night that you demand some answers from others and going on an abusive rant to Reg.

by the way i voted Tory  :smugfu: i had my reasons. As did the majority of Swindon and the majority of the UK. I could answer it but I very much doubt it matters to anyone on here and I prefer to chat STFC on this forum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, December 21, 2019, 09:59:46
it was a suggestion for you.

its obviously high priority on a friday night that you demand some answers from others and going on an abusive rant to Reg.

by the way i voted Tory  :smugfu: i had my reasons. As did the majority of Swindon and the majority of the UK. I could answer it but I very much doubt it matters to anyone on here and I prefer to chat STFC on this forum.

I don't take Bambi's stuff as abusive, I know he gets a bit carried away at times, but is essentially well meaning,  I;m just trying to clarify waht he mens by his thought experiment.

BTW the Tories didn't win the majority of votes cast in the UK,


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, December 21, 2019, 10:07:44
As did the majority of Swindon and the majority of the UK.

No they did not. Not even the majority of voters voted Tory.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, December 21, 2019, 12:40:14
FPTP has so much to answer for.  The Tories have a majority of MPs, which allows them to convey the impression that they have a majority in the country for their policies - which they do not.  In just about any other western democracy, they would need coalition partners to implement their programme instead of the carte blanche they have here.  It won't change.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Saturday, December 21, 2019, 12:57:44
FPTP has so much to answer for.  The Tories have a majority of MPs, which allows them to convey the impression that they have a majority in the country for their policies - which they do not.  In just about any other western democracy, they would need coalition partners to implement their programme instead of the carte blanche they have here.  It won't change.

 No different to when Tony Blair won a 66 seat majority in 2005 with only 35% of the vote-far less than the Tories got this time.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, December 21, 2019, 13:08:01
I completely agree.  FPTP disproportionately rewards the largest party at the expense of smaller parties.  It always has.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Saturday, December 21, 2019, 13:18:11
FPTP has so much to answer for.  The Tories have a majority of MPs, which allows them to convey the impression that they have a majority in the country for their policies - which they do not.  In just about any other western democracy, they would need coalition partners to implement their programme instead of the carte blanche they have here.  It won't change.

The boundary commission could also be given a poke with a sharp stick if ever there was a move to reduce the number of MPs to 600.
The Sun (and by default the rest of the right wing media) were moaning that the current configuration still favours Labour.
Apparently the intervention of the Brexit party prevented another 20 Labour seats going to the Uncombed Messiah.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Saturday, December 21, 2019, 13:29:56
I completely agree.  FPTP disproportionately rewards the largest party at the expense of smaller parties.  It always has.

Which is why Britain is the only country in Europe that uses it in general elections. But you know, Britain knows best, mother of democracy blah blah blah.  :zzz:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: singingiiiffy on Saturday, December 21, 2019, 13:35:42
No they did not. Not even the majority of voters voted Tory.

You have cropped my quote.

"I had my reasons. As did the majority of Swindon and the UK"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, December 27, 2019, 22:10:19
A knighthood for Iain Duncan Smith.
There's nothing I can really add to that...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, December 27, 2019, 22:17:02
A knighthood for Iain Duncan Smith.
There's nothing I can really add to that...

Top man i’d Suggest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Saturday, December 28, 2019, 07:58:24
Never really been a fan of Topman. Ciro Citerrio was a favourite of mine.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 10:33:04
This did make I smile...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2zJ8vaB5jo&t=4s



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 12:04:22
Something everyone agrees on, I guess...that the Brexit vote was a giant 'fuck off'.  If you voted Leave, stuff like this is funny.  But if you didn't, it just reinforces the view that it was an anguished wail from the disaffected, and that the elusive 'positive case for Brexit' is unlikely to turn up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 12:39:00
This did make I smile...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2zJ8vaB5jo&t=4s



Few things;

It's an inaccurate parody. The BBC were very firmly wedged head first inside the crevice of the Tory cabinet.

So still only a third of the British Public told everyone else to "Fuck off". With nearly another third telling others to not fuck off and over a third not even being able to have their say. That's democracy for you I guess. Still, the parody is inaccurate.

It's a shit parody. No real flow, regardless of political leaning. It's just shit.

He's dressed like a cunt (intentionally no doubt).

Since it's all dubbed. I bet those people in the bar being asked to say "Fuck off" in unison probably had no idea what it was being filmed for. Just the usual 'Do you want to be on TV, the envy of your friends, and get to swear?'.

Oh, how very Tory led too. So inaccuracies go hand in hand I guess. Might be worth revisiting some of those lyrics in about 4 years.

It still isn't funny. Even if you voted Leave.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 12:50:48
Never really been a fan of Topman. Ciro Citerrio was a favourite of mine.

Can’t beat a well turned out and groomed man wearing David Moss clothes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 13:00:14
Few points from someone who voted remain but respects democracy:-
1) What positive reasons did those that wished to remain in the EU give prior to the referendum? ( Project fear was not a positive approach in my opinion)
2) Presumably those wishing to remain would have argued for a second referendum if the numbers had been reversed.
3) I am unaware of any national vote/election receiving more than 50% of the number eligable to vote. Presumably all of these occasions should have been followed by a peoples/confimation/second referendum?

Respect the result even if you don't agree. The other options lead to anarchy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 13:35:32
Few points from someone who voted remain but respects democracy:-
1) What positive reasons did those that wished to remain in the EU give prior to the referendum? ( Project fear was not a positive approach in my opinion)
2) Presumably those wishing to remain would have argued for a second referendum if the numbers had been reversed.
3) I am unaware of any national vote/election receiving more than 50% of the number eligable to vote. Presumably all of these occasions should have been followed by a peoples/confimation/second referendum?

Respect the result even if you don't agree. The other options lead to anarchy.

Well said.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 13:36:33
Few points from someone who voted remain but respects democracy:-
1) What positive reasons did those that wished to remain in the EU give prior to the referendum? ( Project fear was not a positive approach in my opinion)
2) Presumably those wishing to remain would have argued for a second referendum if the numbers had been reversed.
3) I am unaware of any national vote/election receiving more than 50% of the number eligable to vote. Presumably all of these occasions should have been followed by a peoples/confimation/second referendum?

Respect the result even if you don't agree. The other options lead to anarchy.

Why do you still maintain you voted remain, after saying you voted leave, and then smugly told us you vote for Johnson as leader as he was taken to leave asap. Very strange even by the strange debating standards of the TEF.

FWIW, the whole procees after the Ref has been conducted democratically and lawfully, the sole example otherwise Johnson's unlawful proroguing of Parliament.

What should focus your mind now is the same as 3 years ago, how might leaving look, (ie what sort of deal or no deal) and how will it benefit the Brexiteers who voted for it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 14:04:49
.... lead to anarchy.

Let's hope so.
Modern anarchist thought is very interesting.
There's something for everyone.

The election was ultimately a minority of people preferring one bunch of cunts over another bunch of cunts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 14:19:52
2) Presumably those wishing to remain would have argued for a second referendum if the numbers had been reversed.

What a dumb ass presumption. Of course not.

Leavers and the likes of Farage and the ERG wouldn't have gone away though would they.

Quote
3) I am unaware of any national vote/election receiving more than 50% of the number eligable to vote. Presumably all of these occasions should have been followed by a peoples/confimation/second referendum?

That's also dumb.

Surely even you can see that a national vote is repeated every 4-5 years at maximum allowing the public to change their mind.

Its also worth pointing out that more people voted for pro remain/pro-second ref parties than didn't. It isn't relevant of course, the system is what it is and we will have to suck it up. But it shows why Johnson would never agree to a straight confirmatory Brexit vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 14:22:45
The election was ultimately a minority of people preferring one bunch of cunts over another bunch of cunts.

Sounds about right. Even the New/Old Labour landslide under that cunt Blair had a smaller share of the vote than that Cunt Johnson.

I prefer a cunt over a prick any day. I happen to think like others that the cunt Johnson was a more palletable cunt than the prick Corbyn who tried to be gender neutral.

Still on the upside at least one red team is winning something 😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 14:34:25
Hello again Reg! I have consistently stated I voted remain on here, you consistently accuse me of saying I voted leave. The forum will have to judge who is telling the truth. You did not answer my basic point which is the hypocrisy of those that say they accept referendum results but don't really.
I am entitled to my opinions regarding democracy were did I mention legality in my original post?
Sad to say a large number of remainiacs paint typical leavers as thick, uneducated racist plebs who had no idea what they were voting for! I would suggest the recent general election result is all the mandate that Boris requires.
Batch great to read your reasoned argument based on "dumb ass" Ha Ha


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 14:37:16
Hello again Reg! I have consistently stated I voted remain on here, you consistently accuse me of saying I voted leave. The forum will have to judge who is telling the truth. You did not answer my basic point which is the hypocrisy of those that say they accept referendum results but don't really.
I am entitled to my opinions regarding democracy were did I mention legality in my original post?
Sad to say a large number of remainiacs paint typical leavers as thick, uneducated racist plebs who had no idea what they were voting for! I would suggest the recent general election result is all the mandate that Boris requires.
Batch great to read your reasoned argument based on "dumb ass" Ha Ha

Generally does not answer questions Rob, just asks them to be or appear to be a benign provocateur.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 14:48:37
Sad to say a large number of remainiacs paint typical leavers as thick, uneducated racist plebs who had no idea what they were voting for!

Well, not all of them I suppose :)

Though statistically the lower educated you are the more likely you are to vote Brexit - I'm not making that up (google it).

I hope to goodness that we remainers are utterly, totally wrong. I don't see it, but I wouldn't


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 14:54:10
Well, not all of them I suppose :)

Though statistically the lower educated you are the more likely you are to vote Brexit - I'm not making that up (google it).

I hope to goodness that we remainers are utterly, totally wrong. I don't see it, but I wouldn't

Though statistically the lower educated you are the more likely you are to vote Brexit - I'm not making that up (google it). Nearly spat my tea out at that comment. Firstly I don’t believe it, secondly were it to be true likely because those highly educated types lack common sense and struggle to tie up their shoe laces (that’s why they wear slip-ons) google it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 15:09:54
Though statistically the lower educated you are the more likely you are to vote Brexit - I'm not making that up (google it). Nearly spat my tea out at that comment. Firstly I don’t believe it, secondly were it to be true likely because those highly educated types lack common sense and struggle to tie up their shoe laces (that’s why they wear slip-ons) google it.

I think the correlation between education and propensity to vote for Brexit is fairly well established.  See 4th para.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 15:10:33
Can’t be arsed TBH, not well educated enough.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 15:23:24
there you go thicky

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theweek.co.uk/89378/fact-check-did-uk-s-better-educated-vote-remain%3famp


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 15:23:41
Well, not all of them I suppose :)

Though statistically the lower educated you are the more likely you are to vote Brexit - I'm not making that up (google it).

I hope to goodness that we remainers are utterly, totally wrong. I don't see it, but I wouldn't

Of course by that reckoning Labour should have no MP’s along with the SNP. This increases the Conservative majority to a never before seen figure resulting in...Brexit and a conservative government. Result! 😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 15:25:43
Thickly 1 Another thicky 0

Brexit it is. Conservative majority it is. Happy days.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 15:41:08
I thought it was all about going back to the 'good old days'?  The days when gammons were in their prime.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 16:23:31
I thought it was all about going back to the 'good old days'?  The days when gammons were in their prime.

Lovely joint of smoked gammon this Christmas to go with the fresh free range turkey, bootiful.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 18:17:51
Anyone noticed how when a certain type of Brexitist dishes out abuse to minorities, s/he loves to mock political correctness gone mad whenever s/he is countered?

And yet the sensitive souls can never themselves be called "thick".  As if it is wrong to abuse a majority, even if it is 52%.  They can dish ot out but they can't take it.

[NB a certain type of Brexitist only :) ]



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 18:43:28
Can’t be arsed TBH, not well educated enough.

Classic response when presented with actual facts 😂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 19:07:58
The point I was trying to make was that the unwashed majority have as much right to a point of view(and vote) as the educated class!
However I will never accept that remainiacs are that clever when "Top Hat Man" sells his coin collection to fund a European suit, Flag and megaphone. Of course that enabled him to stand outside parliament for nigh on three years screaming detailed reasons why we should remain within the EU...... Not! e.g. like the illiberal undemocrats " Bollocks to Brexit" why not put that slogan on a t shirt and wear it in the European Parliament? Oh they did Doh!
Revoke article 50 worked well for that ex mp Jo Swinson! xxxx


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 19:22:21
I do miss the good old days of grammar school opportunity for working class people. Ok you had to pass the eleven plus but if you did the standard of education was very high. I realise that secondary moderns did not prepare pupils for university and were more focussed on technical skills.
 In the early to mid sixties I was a pupil at Park and was there when the authority changed the system into a non selection approach of junior and senior highs. Unfortunately the unintended consequence of this decision was to bring standards down across the board.
Perhaps Reg would share his thoughts on this as he probably benefited from a private education giving him the skills to become a human encyclopedia!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 19:25:49
Cummings is a contemporary anarchist, he don't believe in the old fashioned concept of states etc, his New New Order is much more corporate aligned, democracy is well out of time now , unless you're a shareholder, for a price!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 19:28:40
remainiacs

This is the 2nd time I have seen you use that term since complaining about remainers/left/labour using slurs against leavers/right/tories.

Don't you find that a little ironic?


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 19:30:53
New new order isn't as good as without Peter Hook


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 19:35:52
Yep good point Flasheart you got me. On reflection I do feel hypocritical so I will moderate my language in future. What about top hat man though?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 19:39:42
What about top hat man though?

I must have missed that one so I'm not sure what you mean.

Sounds creative though...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 19:47:24
I think he means the guy that camped outside Westminster shouting 'stop brexit' on TV interviews ??


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 21:06:41
Yep that's the guy not the smartest chip off the old block but no-one can doubt his enthusiasm.

It also seems strange to me how left wing the metropolitan elite appear to be when surely Marxism would mean a net loss of wealth to them. Oh hang on a minute I forgot altruism applies to others not them.

I trust that they will soon offer shelter to those less fortunate than themselves who are rough sleeping.

The point I am labouring is that unless we learn to be more tolerent to those with different views it's going to be a sad world for my grandchildren to grow up in.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 21:08:48
Yep that's the guy not the smartest chip off the old block but no-one can doubt his enthusiasm.

It also seems strange to me how left wing the metropolitan elite appear to be when surely Marxism would mean a net loss of wealth to them. Oh hang on a minute I forgot altruism applies to others not them.

I trust that they will soon offer shelter to those less fortunate than themselves who are rough sleeping.

The point I am labouring is that unless we learn to be more tolerent to those with different views it's going to be a sad world for my grandchildren to grow up in.



Oh do fuck off! 😉😁😁😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 23:32:28
Oh ffs, Grosspot Bob is back! What a cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Sunday, December 29, 2019, 23:52:33
Classic response when presented with actual facts 😂

Get off your high horse  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Monday, December 30, 2019, 00:22:51
Fair enough I was talking pretentious shit will try to keep myself in control in future.
Mind you some responses were a bit harsh!
I stopped posting cos I forgot my password and the system didn't generate an email.
Just as an aside although I don't live in Swindon now I suspect my 50+ years sentence beats most posters on here?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, January 3, 2020, 12:20:55
NHS safe in their hands:

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/18135404.swindons-islington-street-walk-in-health-centre-close-march/

Don't dare get ill (or be old) for the next 5 years at least


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 3, 2020, 12:35:18

The point I am labouring is that unless we learn to be more tolerent to those with different views it's going to be a sad world for my grandchildren to grow up in.



I imagine living through a self inflicted recession is probably going to be sadder for the poor souls. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, January 3, 2020, 13:02:53
NHS safe in their hands:

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/18135404.swindons-islington-street-walk-in-health-centre-close-march/

Don't dare get ill (or be old) for the next 5 years at least

This has been on the cards for a while. A little bit misleading as nothing is actually closing. They want to use the building for GP appointments, the walk in centre will be housed at the GWH (Urgent Care Centre) which is being upgraded this year. We've won a £30 million grant to sort out ED and Urgent Care.

Essentailly all services are still going to be available, just somewhere else.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, January 3, 2020, 13:45:54
This has been on the cards for a while. A little bit misleading as nothing is actually closing. They want to use the building for GP appointments, the walk in centre will be housed at the GWH (Urgent Care Centre) which is being upgraded this year. We've won a £30 million grant to sort out ED and Urgent Care.

Essentailly all services are still going to be available, just somewhere else.
Hmm, fair enough, it's quite still a major change though from an easily accessible town centre location to one on the edge of town.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 3, 2020, 13:55:17
Hmm, fair enough, it's quite still a major change though from an easily accessible town centre location to one on the edge of town.

TBF is little different to what was happening in the mid 00's when under Labour and PFI medical facilities were popping up everywhere centralising services and clsoing smaller units.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, January 3, 2020, 14:00:25
TBF is little different to what was happening in the mid 00's when under Labour and PFI medical facilities were popping up everywhere centralising services and clsoing smaller units.
Completely agree PFI was terrible. That doesn't justify further damage being done to services now though


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, January 3, 2020, 15:36:38
I'd be pleasantly surprised and quite shocked if it was an improvement. This is a Tory government and town after all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, January 3, 2020, 22:15:48
NHS safe in their hands:

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/18135404.swindons-islington-street-walk-in-health-centre-close-march/

Don't dare get ill (or be old) for the next 5 years at least

I agree. Labour are going to need everyone over the next five years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, January 3, 2020, 22:26:18
I cannot believe how excited I am at up coming labour leadership contest. All you hard lefties must be salivating at the prospect of a grammar school educated millionaire leading the party. Or would you prefer Rebecca Long-Bailey, the anointed hard left momentum babe who’s going to have to engage in some serious Union cock sucking by the looks of things to get anywhere near KS, though with a mouth that looks like the cross between a cats ring piece and a polo mint I think she’s on a hiding to nothing. Discuss. 😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Friday, January 3, 2020, 23:09:48
Gotta love late night sherry fuelled trolling


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, January 3, 2020, 23:54:37
Gotta love late night sherry fuelled trolling

Absolutely, why do you do it? Mines a Nescafé, gotta pick up the young ‘uns shortly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, January 7, 2020, 16:50:05
Good god.... lead Labour to its worst election defeat since 1935. and score a 10 out of 10.

https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1214583725381603328
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, January 7, 2020, 16:52:48
She's right that they need to stand up to the press more.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, January 7, 2020, 17:10:01
She's right that they need to stand up to the press more.

And elect a leader who can out poll 'don't know' in the approval ratings?

Stand up to the press, I fear she would get absolutely savaged by the press, (she just doesn't have the experience or gravitas), she is already making it very easy with all the bollocks about her dad, making up easily disproved crap is pennies from heaven.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, January 7, 2020, 17:19:54
The candidates are totally underwhelming. I'll get a vote on this and have absolutely no idea who I'll pick. At the moment I probably edging towards not bothering. Anyone close to Corbyn is a definite no. If Labour ever want to be elected again they will have to be barely left of centre. They're currently seen as far left by many people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, January 7, 2020, 17:33:13
And elect a leader who can out poll 'don't know' in the approval ratings?

Stand up to the press, I fear she would get absolutely savaged by the press, (she just doesn't have the experience or gravitas), she is already making it very easy with all the bollocks about her dad, making up easily disproved crap is pennies from heaven.

In the run up to the election every person (media wise) and their dog came out of the woodwork to try and discredit both Corbyn and particularly IMHO Johnson, primarily because of the direction he was going regarding brexit. That said and in a way in labours favour we are entering a benign period (notwithstanding the Yanks and the Iranians etc) whereby whoever happens to grab the poisoned chalice does have a number of years to work on offering the government a credible opposition and election challenge. What should worry you labourites is should the conservatives get it right over the five years, the country prospers and everyone has the feel good factor, it is going to be a mammoth ask for labour to gain back much of the 80 seat majority. Choose your leader wisely.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, January 7, 2020, 19:14:57
No opposition has ever overturned an 80+ deficit in an election apparently.

RLB will be a disaster, more of the same. I’ll probably vote Phillips but the gobby bird side of her probably won’t appeal to enough people though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, January 7, 2020, 19:20:45
Not even Labour will be stupid enough to go for RLB...

will they?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, January 7, 2020, 19:23:09
No opposition has ever overturned an 80+ deficit in an election apparently.

RLB will be a disaster, more of the same. I’ll probably vote Phillips but the gobby bird side of her probably won’t appeal to enough people though.


Looks like the Tory millionaire then. More wooden than the Cuprinol man.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, January 7, 2020, 20:25:42
Not even Labour will be stupid enough to go for RLB...

will they?

Idealists tend not to worry too much about practicalities.  It's how someone like Corbyn gets the job - no chance of ever winning a GE, but everyone can be proud they stuck to their principles.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 09:16:03
A pity that Dan Jarvis won't be running. Maybe next time.

Failing that, Labour could possibly do with finding another electorate friendly phoney Tony (or Toni) type.
Fixed grin optional but preferred.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 09:29:26
Idealists tend not to worry too much about practicalities.  It's how someone like Corbyn gets the job - no chance of ever winning a GE, but everyone can be proud they stuck to their principles.

It says rather a lot that RLB and her supporters have decided that the best way to win the votes of party members is to just continue the policies that led to the worst election result since the 30's.

Starmer seems to be going for the Union vote, which may be a battle with RLB as she only got the Eccles gig off the back of having union support.

I don't have a dog in the fight but purely in terms of who I think the electorate *might* got for and also with the ability to make Johnson look a dick at PMQ's (if he ever does that again, now not been seen for 12 days and counting) I would be inclined to say Starmer as leader with Phillips as deputy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 10:13:36
Starmer is the only one of the lot who looks even vaguely prime ministerial, which means the Labour Party members won’t elect him


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 10:27:17
I see the refreshingly expertise free Liz Truss is working her magic to secure one of the first slap downs in trying to negotiate one of those easy as pie post-Brexit trade deals we were promised with Commonwealth countries.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/07/brexit-australian-trade-minister-cant-imagine-visa-free-travel-deal-with-uk

Never mind, there's always Kosovo and Liechtenstein


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 10:29:27
I see the refreshingly expertise free Liz Truss is working her magic to secure one of the first slap downs in trying to negotiate one of those easy as pie post-Brexit trade deals we were promised with Commonwealth countries.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/07/brexit-australian-trade-minister-cant-imagine-visa-free-travel-deal-with-uk

Never mind, there's always Kosovo and Liechtenstein

Who would have guessed the Australians wouldn't be interested in a fire sale right now?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 10:39:35
I see the refreshingly expertise free Liz Truss is working her magic to secure one of the first slap downs in trying to negotiate one of those easy as pie post-Brexit trade deals we were promised with Commonwealth countries.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/07/brexit-australian-trade-minister-cant-imagine-visa-free-travel-deal-with-uk

Never mind, there's always Kosovo and Liechtenstein

I am somewhat surprised that part of the reason we are leaving is due to the free movement in the EU, yet we seem very keen to make such an offer to Australia?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 10:41:29
I am somewhat surprised that part of the reason we are leaving is due to the free movement in the EU, yet we seem very keen to make such an offer to Australia?

[subtext] The right kind of immigrant. [/subtext]


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 10:47:13
Bringing the public the news they need to know:

I'd expect it from the Mail and the Sun, but it seems now the Torygraph have given up all pretence of being a professional news outlet.

(https://i.imgur.com/8jaIJ4Y.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 11:00:34
Bringing the public the news they need to know:

I'd expect it from the Mail and the Sun, but it seems now the Torygraph have given up all pretence of being a professional news outlet.
That ship sailed some years ago, started when the Barclay brothers took over and has only gathered pace since. The Telegraph has read like the Express in terms of screaming bile all last year and intensified as they swung behind Johnson's campaign to unseat May and then install him as leader. A shame as it used to be a decent paper.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 11:11:37
I don't have a dog in the fight but purely in terms of who I think the electorate *might* got for and also with the ability to make Johnson look a dick at PMQ's (if he ever does that again, now not been seen for 12 days and counting)

Johnson looks to have delegated the role of PM to Cummings.... 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 11:30:24
That ship sailed some years ago, started when the Barclay brothers took over and has only gathered pace since. The Telegraph has read like the Express in terms of screaming bile all last year and intensified as they swung behind Johnson's campaign to unseat May and then install him as leader. A shame as it used to be a decent paper.

Hardly surprising from Pearson who is a prime Tory rent a gob (she makes Oakeshott actually appear bright) and appears to be some manner of Fortnum and Mason Hatey Cockpins. She most recently came to the fore by reporting June Whitfields death, 12 months after it happened.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 11:43:07
Johnson looks to have delegated the role of PM to Cummings.... 
That was always going to be the case. Johnson is hugely lazy, he wants the kudos and adulation of being PM and the public face of "Getting Brexit Done" (because of course it will all be over on Jan 31st and won't in any way drag on for at least a decade) but he doesn't have the appetite to actually run anything. Whereas Cummings is desperate to wreak his revenge on a civil service that rejected him when he was in his 20s. We're seeing this already with Johnson not being bothered to stir from his holidays to deal with the start of the Iran crisis. We're also seeing the start of a more presidential style of govt by diktat with the outright contempt Johnson clearly holds parliament in, refusing even to make a statement on Iran to the Commons.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 11:46:59
And by the way, where's that Russia Report that Johnson suppressed before the election but promised would be published after? Still too embarrassing to release for the man who's taken millions from the mafiocracy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 11:50:09
And the Arcuri investigation. That's gone quiet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 12:08:21
And by the way, where's that Russia Report that Johnson suppressed before the election but promised would be published after? Still too embarrassing to release for the man who's taken millions from the mafiocracy?

I believe (I had a quick google just after the election as I wondered same) that it cannot now be published until the relevant parliamentary committee is reformed and signs it off, a process which could take a fair few months apparently.

Handy dat!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 12:14:05
I believe (I had a quick google just after the election as I wondered same) that it cannot now be published until the relevant parliamentary committee is reformed and signs it off, a process which could take a fair few months apparently.
Not least because the government are deliberately dragging their feet on setting a date for elections for chairs of the parliamentary committees. Never been a big fan of scrutiny Johnson, all that nasty accountable democratic stuff is soooooo inconvenient when you've got skeletons to hide


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 12:40:34
Not least because the government are deliberately dragging their feet on setting a date for elections for chairs of the parliamentary committees. Never been a big fan of scrutiny Johnson, all that nasty accountable democratic stuff is soooooo inconvenient when you've got skeletons to hide

TBF, Johnson’s been extremely good at hiding his skeleton.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 17:06:24
[subtext] The right kind of immigrant. [/subtext]
The EU free movement reluctance emanated from the intolerance  of Farage & his disciples to endure hearing foreign languages being spoken on the train.

Not sure however that some of the extraordinary art produced by Australia's native Aboriginals would ever have been sufficient to secure them much of a welcome in parts of Brexitshire, however fluent their English.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, January 9, 2020, 12:16:04
Yesterday 348 MPs defeated an amendment to the Brexit bill that "would have protected the right for unaccompanied child refugees to be reunited with their families after Brexit". What kind of human being thinks this is an acceptable way for Britain to behave toward unprotected desperate children?

https://twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1214927927650983936


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 9, 2020, 14:36:18
The same kind of human who also votes against a pledge to continue the Erasmus scheme depriving kids of what we all had the right to enjoy before.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, January 9, 2020, 14:53:41
The same kind of human who also votes against a pledge to continue the Erasmus scheme depriving kids of what we all had the right to enjoy before.

England has just elected a right wing government, so they'll do right wing things.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 9, 2020, 16:32:33
https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/john-humphrys-joins-daily-mail-as-weekly-columnist-after-leaving-bbc/

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, January 9, 2020, 19:46:57
Posted this elsewhere;

'Hmmm hate to be dubious (but I will be anyway).

All the TV media focusing on Prince Harry & Meghan deciding to take a step back from public duties...just as Parliament passes a bill, whereby it removes the UK's ongoing provision and commitment to reunite children with family members in the UK, from the withdrawal bill.

Can't quite think of the word but 'smokescreen' would be apt. What news should you really be seeing because in my opinion, we should always be providing a provision to all children with family in the UK and certainly not removing it.

But here we are. This is the new and prosperous "Great Britain" of which we're faced with. I'm sure there will be some bizarrely, who will be thrilled with this news.'


It's the Graun but read here if you wish to learn more;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/08/mps-vote-to-drop-child-refugee-protections-from-brexit-bill


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, January 10, 2020, 14:37:19
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51062770

I know he won't get elected, but as an outsider looking in, this one article pretty much sums up the problem Labour have right now.  While I don;t doubt a decent argument could be had on the Monarchy and it's position in the UK, as well as funding, it's hardly something right at the forefront of British politics.  It merely plays to a very left sided audience around ideology.  The bit right at the bottom also makes we smile, that somehow the way Labour got into power in the 90's was the reason they have trouble now.  I have no doubt that the political party carries some baggage from Blair's Iraq stupidity, but if they didn't learn anything from that period about being able to do more in power by appealing to the masses than they can achieve by pushing marginal policies, then they deserve to wither.  Fast becoming the same party I remember from the early 80's.  Lots of arm waving, no doubt some very worthy causes being championed, but thinking the 70% who didn't vote for them are wrong, rather than wondering what they can do to appeal to them.

The Tories don't suffer this offer, they play much more on fear on the far right, so they only have to mop up a few in the middle or left with odd policy pander.  They also don;t tend to have many parties competing with them on their own ground.  That places even more emphasis on Labour or Lib Dems to put together a decent party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, January 10, 2020, 15:20:43
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51062770

I know he won't get elected, but as an outsider looking in, this one article pretty much sums up the problem Labour have right now.  While I don;t doubt a decent argument could be had on the Monarchy and it's position in the UK, as well as funding, it's hardly something right at the forefront of British politics.  It merely plays to a very left sided audience around ideology.  The bit right at the bottom also makes we smile, that somehow the way Labour got into power in the 90's was the reason they have trouble now.  I have no doubt that the political party carries some baggage from Blair's Iraq stupidity, but if they didn't learn anything from that period about being able to do more in power by appealing to the masses than they can achieve by pushing marginal policies, then they deserve to wither.  Fast becoming the same party I remember from the early 80's.  Lots of arm waving, no doubt some very worthy causes being championed, but thinking the 70% who didn't vote for them are wrong, rather than wondering what they can do to appeal to them.

The Tories don't suffer this offer, they play much more on fear on the far right, so they only have to mop up a few in the middle or left with odd policy pander.  They also don;t tend to have many parties competing with them on their own ground.  That places even more emphasis on Labour or Lib Dems to put together a decent party.

The only thing wrong with that piece is that Buckland appears on it.... quite why as it's entitled Labour Leadership, I don't know  ;)

FWIW, I think with the inevitable handing over of the reigns (Nev tribute) soon, I think a goodtime to hold a debate about our constitution.   I think the whole Johnson unlawful proroguing of Parliament saga, shows we need a head of state with legal powers beyond the ceremonial


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, January 10, 2020, 17:08:48
The bit right at the bottom also makes we smile, that somehow the way Labour got into power in the 90's was the reason they have trouble now.  I have no doubt that the political party carries some baggage from Blair's Iraq stupidity
There's more baggage than just Iraq. It was under Blair that Labour got the reputation as no longer being a party of the regions or the working class but a London-centric elite, a reputation they've struggled to shed since. Anecdotally, speaking to friends and relatives back Ooop North, they haven't felt Labour really cared about the problems of Northern constituencies or had anything relevant to say to them for 20 years or more. Blair won elections but cemented the impression that Labour took it's heartlands for granted by doing little or fuck all for them. Labour heartlands voting Leave in 2016 and Tory in 2019 were a representation of that feeling that "no-one gives a fuck about us" and wanting to kick over the whole applecart.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 10, 2020, 17:15:31
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51062770

I know he won't get elected, but as an outsider looking in, this one article pretty much sums up the problem Labour have right now.  While I don;t doubt a decent argument could be had on the Monarchy and it's position in the UK, as well as funding, it's hardly something right at the forefront of British politics.  It merely plays to a very left sided audience around ideology. 

Indeed, but then again no one gave a gnats arse about the EU until fairly recently when right wing politicians and their mates in the media started talking about it, these things can snowball given the right conditions
Labour heartlands voting Leave in 2016 and Tory in 2019 were a representation of that feeling that "no-one gives a fuck about us" and wanting to kick over the whole applecart.
.

Sadly they are going to learn the real definition of "no-one gives a fuck about us" over the next 5-10 years. There is a hell of a lot of window dressing re the north going on at the moment (One example being them suddenly being interested and 'doing something' about the northern debacle), but there is sod all substance behind any of it.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, January 10, 2020, 17:23:15
Sadly they are going to learn the real definition of "no-one gives a fuck about us" over the next 5-10 years. There is a hell of a lot of window dressing re the north going on at the moment (One example being them suddenly being interested and 'doing something' about the northern debacle), but there is sod all substance behind any of it.
But then there wasn't under Labour either. Which is the point my friends and rellies made. Talking to friends in former mining areas, people there were even more disillusioned, they felt they'd been sacrificed by Thatcher to her "break the unions" crusade and had whole communities destroyed, looked to a Labour govt to finally get them back on their feet and they were just ignored and abandoned in favour of the shiny new voters in the Southeast. After all, they were in "pig in a red rosette" territory, so why bother? Ironically, if Johnson does the same in reverse (i.e. neglects his heartlands and works hard to retain the "new voters"), they may finally get some attention


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, January 13, 2020, 13:55:00
And then there were five. I’m surprised none of you labour supporters have put up a poll of sorts for everyone to vote for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, January 13, 2020, 16:21:05
Different I s'pose....

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/jamie-wallis-co-owned-sugar-daddy-website


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, January 13, 2020, 19:00:12
Different I s'pose....

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/jamie-wallis-co-owned-sugar-daddy-website

Was it an illegal operation?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:03:10
So Hancock's now planning on scrapping waiting targets for the NHS. This isn't a government that likes to be held accountable is it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:09:47
So Hancock's now planning on scrapping waiting targets for the NHS. This isn't a government that likes to be held accountable is it?

This why I would like to see a review of our constitution and the role of the monarchy in it.  Effectively there is no accountability in the system.... no checks and balances.  Atm we have an elected dictatorship.... it isn't healthy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:13:31
This why I would like to see a review of our constitution and the role of the monarchy in it.
That's being conducted on the sofas of breakfast time TV and continued on twitter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:15:48
Don't worry. I'm sure the press will hold them to account.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:18:27
So Hancock's now planning on scrapping waiting targets for the NHS. This isn't a government that likes to be held accountable is it?

I think you’ll find if I caught the news article correctly about 10 minutes or so ago they are thinking about getting doctors to set their own waiting time targets.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:20:12
I think you’ll find if I caught the news article correctly about 10 minutes or so ago they are thinking about getting doctors to set their own waiting time targets.
Not doctors, NHS managers. Who will have the option to set them (or not). It's called marking your own homework. When's the Russia Report being released?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:21:25
That's being conducted on the sofas of breakfast time TV and continued on twitter.

That's as maybe... but historically it was a case of a constitution run by gentleman's agreement, with a vague assumption the head of state could in certain circumstances act for the benefit of their subjects.  Recent events have binned this orf.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:25:56
Not doctors, NHS managers. Who will have the option to set them (or not). It's called marking your own homework. When's the Russia Report being released?

Firstly you’ll need to ask the government the question re. The Russians. Though is suspect you won’t be happy with the result either way so I don’t know why it vexes you so much. Secondly I welcome the target initiative in so much as each PCT has its own resources which are different from the others. If they do go down that road only time will tell whether it works or not. You clearly have issues either way with what is currently happening. Thirdly who ar you throwing you weight behind in the labour leadership race?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:28:01
I would imagine the government bailing out of Flybe could be a can of worms if only we had some real journalists in this country these days....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:29:12
That's as maybe... but historically it was a case of a constitution run by gentleman's agreement, with a vague assumption the head of state could in certain circumstances act for the benefit of their subjects.  Recent events have binned this orf.
It was never a constitution, just a pretence of one. I wasn't being wholly serious about the Breakfast time TV review, although it's as much of a review as it is a constitution so it amounts to the same thing. Irrespective, assuming your core point is that the current pretence of a "constitution" clearly isn't fit for purpose, I think that's undeniable, the farcical events of the past 6 months, never mind the past 4 years demonstrate that beyond debate, whichever side of the political spectrum you are on. As with all these things, though, be careful what you wish for - a Johnson/Cummings review of the constitution might not come up with answers that look very much like a democracy


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:31:11
That's as maybe... but historically it was a case of a constitution run by gentleman's agreement, with a vague assumption the head of state could in certain circumstances act for the benefit of their subjects.  Recent events have binned this orf.

We have a government with a massive majority and a clean sheet of paper to do whatever they want.

There is more chance of Swindon winning the Champions league than there being any review or change to the constitution. On top of this the Tories are likely to set all manner of precedents for executive power which when they do get voted out will land in the lap of their successors, who then will be equally not prepared to do anything.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:34:25
Meanwhile, Bloomberg Economics have calculated that Brexit has already cost us more than 47 years' worth of our contributions to the EU budget. And that's before Johnson makes a horse's arse of pretending he has "Got It Done"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-10/-170-billion-and-counting-the-cost-of-brexit-for-the-u-k

Doubt we'll be seeing those figures on the side of a bus


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:37:09
Was it an "elected dictatorship" during the Blair/Brown era when the centre ground pre Marxist labour party had a massive majority in parliament?
Selective critism always amazes me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:37:36
Firstly you’ll need to ask the government the question re. The Russians. Though is suspect you won’t be happy with the result either way so I don’t know why it vexes you so much. Secondly I welcome the target initiative in so much as each PCT has its own resources which are different from the others. If they do go down that road only time will tell whether it works or not. You clearly have issues either way with what is currently happening. Thirdly who ar you throwing you weight behind in the labour leadership race?

A varuiable service NHS by design. Sounds the opposite of looking after the NHS to me. Its letting them get on with it.

Targets shouldn't be increased so they are met. Which there would surely be a temptation to do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:38:25
Meanwhile, Bloomberg Economics have calculated that Brexit has already cost us more than 47 years' worth of our contributions to the EU budget. And that's before Johnson makes a horse's arse of pretending he has "Got It Done"

Yeah, but immugrunts and take back control and blue passports and stuff.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:46:21
Yeah, but immugrunts and take back control and blue passports and stuff.
And Big Ben. Don't forget the Bell. The Bellends love a Bell.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:55:53
Meanwhile, Bloomberg Economics have calculated that Brexit has already cost us more than 47 years' worth of our contributions to the EU budget. And that's before Johnson makes a horse's arse of pretending he has "Got It Done"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-10/-170-billion-and-counting-the-cost-of-brexit-for-the-u-k

Doubt we'll be seeing those figures on the side of a bus

Would have to be a double decker....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 11:58:26
I would imagine the government bailing out of Flybe could be a can of worms if only we had some real journalists in this country these days....

Are there not ‘rules’ that the beloved EU have in place regarding state aid for businesses? The government has to abide by these rules until we leave. I’d imagine a lot of screaming if the government left them to flounder and now a lot of screaming that they have helped. Bloody hell who’d have thought those nasty conservatives helping save working class jobs. Whatever next?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 12:00:31
Was it an "elected dictatorship" during the Blair/Brown era when the centre ground pre Marxist labour party had a massive majority in parliament?
Selective critism always amazes me.

To an extent yes.... although the key aspect of the Iraq war was put to the House, in a vote, which under custom wasn't required as PM can just use Royal Progative in matters of war.

However Blair put it to the House with the caveat he would resign if it wasn't carried. 25% of Labour MP's voted against as did all LibDems and other fringe parties and 2 Tories.  The other Tories voted for war, eschewing the opportunity to oust Blair, so in that sense democracy was served by the gentleman's agreement constitution.

I'm sure as a grammar schoolboy you must have done A Level British Constitution.... nice and easy, and Universities liked it... here are some of the papers and many of the questions are even more relevant 50 years later.

http://www.mel-lambert.com/Ruskin/Images/JRGS11J_NG_Images.htm


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 12:02:39
Was it an "elected dictatorship" during the Blair/Brown era when the centre ground pre Marxist labour party had a massive majority in parliament?
Selective critism always amazes me.

Gets himself in Greta Thunberg character. How dare you, how dare you challenge the socialist untouchables 🤣🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 12:04:13
Are there not ‘rules’ that the beloved EU have in place regarding state aid for businesses? The government has to abide by these rules until we leave. I’d imagine a lot of screaming if the government left them to flounder and now a lot of screaming that they have helped. Bloody hell who’d have thought those nasty conservatives helping save working class jobs. Whatever next?

Nowt to do with State aid (although there is a similar case in Ireland which fell on its arse in the courts for this very reason so possibly all smoke and mirrors at this stage anyway), more to do with who potentially actually owns it along with donations they make to a certain political party....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 12:14:59
Nowt to do with State aid (although there is a similar case in Ireland which fell on its arse in the courts for this very reason so possibly all smoke and mirrors at this stage anyway), more to do with who potentially actually owns it along with donations they make to a certain political party....

FFS, really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 12:19:16
We have a government with a massive majority and a clean sheet of paper to do whatever they want.

There is more chance of Swindon winning the Champions league than there being any review or change to the constitution.
Actually, constitutional reform was in the manifesto, a vague passing reference but then everything was vague in the Tory manifesto. The bit in the manifesto hinted at there being increased power for the executive to override/ignore parliament and the courts, following the courts pointing out that Johnson had lied to the monarch during the proroguing fiasco. So I think it's extremely likely, and highly likely to further erode democracy. As I say, be careful what you wish for


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 12:29:57
Nowt to do with State aid (although there is a similar case in Ireland which fell on its arse in the courts for this very reason so possibly all smoke and mirrors at this stage anyway), more to do with who potentially actually owns it along with donations they make to a certain political party....

It is effectivvely the government propping up a private enterprise at taxpayers expense though (the deferment).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 13:14:03
Hi Reg nice to hear from you again. My point was not about the constitution but your critique inferring that this elected government is a dictatorship without any reference to previous administrations.
The current parliamentary system has been seen to be more than adequate for hundreds of years. The most urgent changes required in my opinion are reform of the House of Lords and equalization of constituency size by electorate numbers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 13:20:00
It is effectivvely the government propping up a private enterprise at taxpayers expense though (the deferment).

You mean like Northern Rock? And TATA steel in Wales?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 13:46:31
Hi Reg nice to hear from you again. My point was not about the constitution but your critique inferring that this elected government is a dictatorship without any reference to previous administrations.
The current parliamentary system has been seen to be more than adequate for hundreds of years. The most urgent changes required in my opinion are reform of the House of Lords and equalization of constituency size by electorate numbers.

The point is illustrated by the Iraq issue as outlined.... previous admins able to behave as elected dictatorships but balances in place by custom and the broad church nature of parties, placing curbs on them. This version of the Constitution relies on honorable behaviour... we don't have it with this administration.  Johnson purged dissent within his party, acted unlawfully in proroguing Parliament and lied to the head of state.

The majority of voters in the UK didn't vote for this, therefore its axiomatic that there should be written  legal curbs to protect them against the worst excesses that this right wing government will foist on them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 14:10:32
Don't worry, our stance on Iran won't be decided by our govt anyway. There was a bloke from the US National Security Council on R4 this morning explaining that if we want a trade deal we'd better fall into line on Iran pretty damn sharpish. #takingBackControl


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 14:33:56
Don't worry, our stance on Iran won't be decided by our govt anyway. There was a bloke from the US National Security Council on R4 this morning explaining that if we want a trade deal we'd better fall into line on Iran pretty damn sharpish. #takingBackControl

That has been as clear as day as illustrated by our trusty Poodle wittering on about Trump's Iran deal, which appears to be entirely mythical at the moment but is obviously better than the one his sugar daddy doesn't like.

The point is illustrated by the Iraq issue as outlined.... previous admins able to behave as elected dictatorships but balances in place by custom and the broad church nature of parties, placing curbs on them. This version of the Constitution relies on honorable behaviour... we don't have it with this administration.  Johnson purged dissent within his party, acted unlawfully in proroguing Parliament and lied to the head of state.

The majority of voters in the UK didn't vote for this, therefore its axiomatic that there should be written  legal curbs to protect them against the worst excesses that this right wing government will foist on them.

Point is, what happened in the past is frankly irrelevant, constitution is not going to be reviewed without the approval of the government elected with a stonking majority under our long-standing electoral system (which Labour had the opportunity to change in 2011 but instead sat on the fence with no official position (I see a trend emerging here)), who in turn (despite what they may have signalled in their manifesto) are not going to let anything that dilutes their present power get off the blocks, it may be morally dubious but that's politics. 

Somehat ironically the unelected Lords could be the most restraining house in terms of the government being held to account, see Dubs, L!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 14:35:19
It is effectivvely the government propping up a private enterprise at taxpayers expense though (the deferment).

Isn't the State Aid issue in relation to competition?  If so, flybe largely operate unwanted routes, acting as a sort of public transport operation.  As such, the public interest comes into play and there are very few anti-competitive issues with propping them up.  I like Branson, but Virgin do know how to play this card pretty well - Northern Rock was mentioned earlier which gave them the leg up into the Financial world.  They'll have one eye on the landing slots flybe have, which is why they went in, and why they'll be trying all they can to minimise the financial hit of running any of the existing network.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 15:11:57
You mean like Northern Rock? And TATA steel in Wales?

Yes its not without precedent. It's interesting which industries the government treat as sacred cows, and which can go to the dogs.

I take Rob's point on flying routes others won't, and thus enabling regional connectivity. Though some bigger players were blocked out of Newquay for example.

However FlyBy owners aren't exactly skint....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 15:12:21
Ffs Reg can't you see you view every political issue from one perspective only and with blinkers on as well. Can't you see how ridiculous it is to criticise Boris and his mates without mentioning the shameful shenanigans of the speaker and mp's who would not accept the result of the 2016 referendum. Using the humble address and back benches taking over parliamentary business don't ever get a mention from you!
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 15:28:57
Ffs Reg can't you see you view every political issue from one perspective only and with blinkers on as well. Can't you see how ridiculous it is to criticise Boris and his mates without mentioning the shameful shenanigans of the speaker and mp's who would not accept the result of the 2016 referendum. Using the humble address and back benches taking over parliamentary business don't ever get a mention from you!
Which is why I said that Reg's argument for constitutional reform should garner support from all corners of the political spectrum. We don't have a constitution, the shenanigans that you refer to make the argument as to why we need one, just as the examples Reg cites. You're vehemently agreeing with each other here


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 15:36:45
Which is why I said that Reg's argument for constitutional reform should garner support from all corners of the political spectrum. We don't have a constitution, the shenanigans that you refer to make the argument as to why we need one, just as the examples Reg cites. You're vehemently agreeing with each other here

Possibly if parties looked long term and acted in the public interest, they don't though.

With our essentially two party system if you can get a decent majority you basically have carte blanche, Tories know that and thus for now it looks fine and rosy, likewise when they inevitably bugger things up and it looks like Labour might get in at a forthcoming election why would Labour then support reform as they know that come post election the free hand drops to them.

System is buggered, but no one has the power (and) inclination to do anything about it. Labour had chance 9 years back and chose not to, thus to bleat when the system is against them just looks like sour grapes, although at least its not blaming the media.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 15:42:27
Possibly if parties looked long term and acted in the public interest, they don't though.

With our essentially two party system if you can get a decent majority you basically have carte blanche, Tories know that and thus for now it looks fine and rosy, likewise when they inevitably bugger things up and it looks like Labour might get in at a forthcoming election why would Labour then support reform as they know that come post election the free hand drops to them.

System is buggered, but no one has the power (and) inclination to do anything about it. Labour had chance 9 years back and chose not to, thus to bleat when the system is against them just looks like sour grapes, although at least its not blaming the media.
Yes, although in this instance I was talking about Rob and Reg, not the parties they support. They're both on the same page in regards to the need for constitutional reform, but with different examples motivating them. And possibly differing solutions, although that presupposes either of them have thought very hard about what they *would* like to see (not a dig, I haven't personally - I can see the need for having a constitution but not being a constitutional expert, have only the haziest idea about what such a beast should look like, other than a system of checks and balances between executive, legislature, judiciary and media)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 15:48:30
(https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/82660121_2956420041035222_45806071024975872_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ohc=UdPxWiYB3q0AX84izhM&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-1.fna&oh=9d05d06f64ff38662c700e31048c773c&oe=5EA7ABDA)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 16:18:39
(https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/82660121_2956420041035222_45806071024975872_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ohc=UdPxWiYB3q0AX84izhM&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-1.fna&oh=9d05d06f64ff38662c700e31048c773c&oe=5EA7ABDA)

Could be worse. If you backed staying in the EU and voted labour I’d have said that headline was perfect.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 16:39:04
Anyway the Labour fighback has started in earnest, Vaz is back!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 16:39:49
Anyway the Labour fighback has started in earnest, Vaz is back!

Thank you you have just made my day. 🤣🤣🤣🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 17:00:03
Constitutions are not always the answer - what we thought 300 years ago may not play so well today.  In fact, the speed of change in society is quicker and only likely to continue as thus, being tied to a philosophy can be challenging.  Sure, you can put in ways of changing, but they have to be robust, and by being so make it bloody difficult to change.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 22:23:41
Don't worry, our stance on Iran won't be decided by our govt anyway. There was a bloke from the US National Security Council on R4 this morning explaining that if we want a trade deal we'd better fall into line on Iran pretty damn sharpish. #takingBackControl
It was always going to be a choice between the EU or the US, it is the Blur v Oasis of the day. And to be fair, when you see China getting rogered by the US as they are being right now, then what choice will we have other than to give the Yanks free reign?

Having said that, if Trump (/the US) want to finish the EU for good or at least significantly weaken it then what better way to do it than give the UK the sort of trade deal that will tempt others within the 27 to exit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, January 16, 2020, 00:16:00
Brexitism has been encouraged by both Trump and Putin who for differing reasons see benefits in weakening the EU.  Your scenario shows the UK as a consenting adult, partnering with a dominatrix USA.  With the emotive calls for sovereignty quietly dropped.

Personally, I wish the EU every success as a precious if flawed counterweight against the at times overbearing machinations of Russia, China and indeed the USA.

If the USA has really rogered China today, having undoubtedly rogered Mexico and Canada in tearing up the NAFTA trade deal, we can only hope it will play nice and not get too rough with us.  They've promised that our relationship is "special" after all.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, January 16, 2020, 08:51:33
Poor ole Jeremy Corbyn, poor ole Jeremy Corbyn. You have to feel for Albert Steptoe I suppose. He’ll pass into that socialist Valhalla looking on with green eyed envy at the stunt Putin has pulled in Russia 🤣🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 16, 2020, 10:01:36
And to be fair, when you see China getting rogered by the US as they are being right now, then what choice will we have other than to give the Yanks free reign?

Having said that, if Trump (/the US) want to finish the EU for good or at least significantly weaken it then what better way to do it than give the UK the sort of trade deal that will tempt others within the 27 to exit.

The devil is in the detail, a number of  people who actually have experience of trade deals seem to suggest that on first reading Trump's deal with China actually says actually sweet FA of any substance but is instead intended to persuade voters that he is doing somthing positive in a time when he is up shit creek re Lev Parnas and also has an election coming up...

In short....

China agrees to buy $50B of ag products this year.

-That's a gain of $29B from before Trump tariffs.

-Trump tariffs have cost U.S. farmers $11B.

-U.S. taxpayers have spent $28B on emergency payouts to farmers.

-So loss to U.S. is $39B.

The above is also based upon Trumps witterings that it is $50bn, the text actually only says $38bn so the loss to US is potentially actually $53bn.

Not sure Trump wants to finish the EU, that more Putins gig, although the former is potentially a proxy of the other so who knows. However Brexit has rather misfired as all it seems to have done is persuaded many electorates who were potentially on the brink, watching us commit financial and diplomatic suicide, what a stupid idea it is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 16, 2020, 10:02:27
Poor ole Jeremy Corbyn, poor ole Jeremy Corbyn. You have to feel for Albert Steptoe I suppose. He’ll pass into that socialist Valhalla looking on with green eyed envy at the stunt Putin has pulled in Russia 🤣🤣

You do realise that Putin is as socialist as Orban don't you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, January 16, 2020, 10:21:41
You do realise that Putin is as socialist as Orban don't you?

I know he’s a dictator of a socialist/communist ‘empire’ and anointed by Brezhnev. Ah you mean a socialist in name only with money and power.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, January 16, 2020, 10:32:16
I know he’s a dictator of a socialist/communist ‘empire’ and anointed by Brezhnev.
Russia hasn't been communist since the early 90s, you ignoramus. These days it's a mix of nationalist authoritarianism with a large element of gangster kleptocracy thrown in. And Putin is a prime sponsor of most of the causes so dear to your heart


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, January 16, 2020, 10:51:08
Russia hasn't been communist since the early 90s, you ignoramus. These days it's a mix of nationalist authoritarianism with a large element of gangster kleptocracy thrown in. And Putin is a prime sponsor of most of the causes so dear to your heart

I wondered how long it would take you to pop up. You couldn’t help yourself could you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 17, 2020, 13:21:30
This just popped, and I know she is a Purton lass, and Reg needs to get his pecker up....

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EOeQ5S7X4AAsbhR?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, January 17, 2020, 13:25:32
I wondered how long it would take you to pop up. You couldn’t help yourself could you.

Hmm person posts on message board shocker.

But you’re right for once; trolls are best ignored


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, January 17, 2020, 13:27:02
I do love Billie Piper.  Always have.

Her ex was sounding very Tory on Question Time last night.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 17, 2020, 13:44:58
I do love Billie Piper.  Always have.

Her ex was sounding very Tory on Question Time last night.

Hence why the picture has popped up on Twitter, she was trending and I feared the worse!

From a fellow admirer!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, January 17, 2020, 14:02:12
Hmm person posts on message board shocker.

But you’re right for once; trolls are best ignored
tbf, I don't think pointing out that thinking Russia is still a communist state nearly 30 years after the demise of the Soviet Union is incorrect counts as trolling, more educating an astonishing level of ignorance


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, January 17, 2020, 14:40:34
tbf, I don't think pointing out that thinking Russia is still a communist state nearly 30 years after the demise of the Soviet Union is incorrect counts as trolling, more educating an astonishing level of ignorance

Oh totally - agreed. Sorry I was implying he was the troll (see his original post) and the rest of us are better off ignoring him. He only does it for attention.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, January 17, 2020, 14:42:39
Oh totally - agreed. Sorry I was implying he was the troll (see his original post) and the rest of us are better of ignoring him. He only does it for attention.
Fair enough  :thumb:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, January 17, 2020, 18:59:54
Fair enough  :thumb:

Go wrong daily, go wrong daily.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, January 20, 2020, 10:50:29
Reality starting to hit home on what they voted for in Grimsby

https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-news/brexit-exemption-sought-grimsby-seafood-736984?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, January 20, 2020, 11:26:45
Reality starting to hit home on what they voted for in Grimsby

https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-news/brexit-exemption-sought-grimsby-seafood-736984?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

It appears to have been striking home over two years ago (when that article was published!!)  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, January 20, 2020, 12:17:35
It appears to have been striking home over two years ago (when that article was published!!)  ;)
Doh! Point still stands though, probably the more so now as a FTA or no deal looms


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, January 20, 2020, 12:41:18
Doh! Point still stands though, probably the more so now as a FTA or no deal looms

After the Saj's intervention over the weekend, I suspect its not just the fishmakers who are not feeling very blessed and instead rather vulnerable as they return to their trawlers this Monday morning!

You've had three years to prepare for this thing that we haven't actually decided what its is, however, its your fault, deal with it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, January 20, 2020, 13:06:05
After the Saj's intervention over the weekend, I suspect its not just the fishmakers who are not feeling very blessed and instead rather vulnerable as they return to their trawlers this Monday morning!

You've had three years to prepare for this thing that we haven't actually decided what its is, however, its your fault, deal with it.
Who realised that "Fuck Business" wasn't just an outburst, more a manifesto commitment?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 11:51:56
Who realised that "Fuck Business" wasn't just an outburst, more a manifesto commitment?

This is what Javid had to say before the Ref......

 “the only thing guaranteed about leaving the bloc was a decade of stagnation and doubt. Just like the Bank of England governor, Mark Carney, and IMF head Christine Lagarde, I still believe that Britain is better off in. And that’s all because of the single market. It’s a great invention, one that even Lady Thatcher campaigned enthusiastically to create. The world’s largest economic bloc, it gives every business in Britain access to 500 million customers with no barriers, no tariffs and no local legislation to worry about."



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 12:17:14
To his credit, the article is still up on his personal website.  The more Trumpian elements of the present government would have deleted the article and then denied that it ever existed.

https://www.sajidjavid.com/news/sajid-javid-only-thing-leaving-eu-guarantees-lost-decade-british-business

He was Eurosceptic, but recognised the harm to jobs and to the economy that leaving would entail.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 12:57:32
He was Eurosceptic, but recognised the harm to jobs and to the economy that leaving would entail.

I think that applies to many remainers doesn't it. Does me, to an extent.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 13:40:55
I think that applies to many remainers doesn't it. Does me, to an extent.

Which is precisely why membership was always doomed.

The UK, well, mostly England, did little over the preceding decades to sell any benefit of being IN outside of the economy, and actually tried to hold on to some bizarre notion it was only ever meant to be a trade deal.

Successive governments did little to sell the virtues of Membership, the press had a field day, getting the green light from the Politicians, and I have no doubt our existence as an actual Island does create a very different view of Europe anyway.  Against that backdrop it was not surprising we'd eventually opt back out.  Unfortunately, we've had a bit longer than most of Europe to get used to our current borders during a period where the sense of Nationhood took off.  Thanks to a fair few wars, the rest of Europe has been moving around like chips on a Balckjack table.  Yes the French have a fair number of staunch Nationalists (in the real sense, not the modern one), but they remain fiercely regional at the same time, as does Spain.  Bits of Northern Italy still thrive as Austrian and plenty of Eastern Europe barely had time to get used to not being part of a huge Communist State.

In the meantime we get our Parliament back, how exciting, especially as everyone moaning about the EU has about as much time for that institution as well.  The human nature of fear will find a new foe soon enough.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, January 22, 2020, 10:06:10
I was sorry that Jess Phillips didn't get the necessary nominations to stay in the race.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 22, 2020, 10:13:14
I was sorry that Jess Phillips didn't get the necessary nominations to stay in the race.
I didn't especially care one way or the other but she did sum up Labour's problem at the last election (and the next 48 unless they sort themselves out) rather well:
"I truly believe that if we don’t speak to the country on their terms, and not just ours, then we won’t be able to make the gains we need to win an election"
It's why they lost the last election and will continue to lose them until they can show they understand this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, January 22, 2020, 10:23:47
I have no doubt our existence as an actual Island

AN ISLAND?! Has anyone told Dominic Raab???


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 22, 2020, 10:27:01
AN ISLAND?! Has anyone told Dominic Raab???
:D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 22, 2020, 10:46:25
Who knew that our fish were so pro Brexit?

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-party-mep-june-mummery-fish-leave-eu-9295971


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 22, 2020, 13:01:21
Who knew that our fish were so pro Brexit?

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-party-mep-june-mummery-fish-leave-eu-9295971
Or UKIP/Brexit Party MEPs so dim? Actually, everyone knew that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 22, 2020, 13:07:50
Hang on a sec, I thought we were not going to be alligned as per Saj's comments over the weekend...

https://amp.irishexaminer.com/break...-brexit-976783.html?__twitter_impression=true

The automotive sector is the UK's largest export, worth £33bn a year. 90% of cars built in the UK are exported.

The EU and its 27 member countries have a choice. It can encourage those car firms to relocate into the EU27, or it can help us out...

Hmmm, I wonder...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, January 22, 2020, 14:16:45
Couldn't reach your Irish Examiner link unfortunately

So far as Paul is concerned, Ireland (like the UK) is also an island and doesn't share the insularity vis a vis the EU that seems to afflict the English.  It's all, even now, about WW2 rather than about being an island, innit?

On an issue related to motor manufacturing, the USA has indicated increasing tariffs for Brit vehicle exports if we go ahead and introduce our proposed Digital Services Tax.  Rather calling into question the supposed sovereignty gains by preferring the USA for trade, never mind further revealing where the USA really stands on "free trade".




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 22, 2020, 15:05:05
So far as Paul is concerned, Ireland (like the UK) is also an island and doesn't share the insularity vis a vis the EU that seems to afflict the English. 
Erm, if that's directed at me, I have no idea what you're on about? If it's not, apologies, I'll mind me own


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, January 22, 2020, 15:14:51
Meant to direct it at Robert T's comment that our existence as an actual Island does create a very different view of Europe - which I noted wasn't replicated in Ireland.

But happy to get into a shitight with you over this  ;).  I'm a little edgy after the Yates shock this morning.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 22, 2020, 15:44:32
Meant to direct it at Robert T's comment that our existence as an actual Island does create a very different view of Europe - which I noted wasn't replicated in Ireland.
Ah OK, I was baffled there :)
But happy to get into a shitight with you over this  ;).  I'm a little edgy after the Yates shock this morning.
Please let's not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, January 22, 2020, 17:07:12
Ireland does have that view of us at times though.  Clearly you don't have to be inward thinking if you are an Island, just that we've sort of circled the wagons as a Nation, and by us, England.  Which is not even an Island!  The Scots seem far more open minded about the world, maybe because the invaders were always England (theme).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 23, 2020, 17:20:12
Probably not worth reading if you think Brexit is 'over the finish line'

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2020/01/23/brexit-2020-everything-you-need-to-know-about-johnson-s-trad

TL:DR its a total shambles.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, January 24, 2020, 09:07:17
Probably not worth having someone read it to you if you think Brexit is 'over the finish line'
FIFY


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, January 24, 2020, 09:18:28
This American impeachment thing is a gargantuan waste of time and money. Whatever 'crime' Trump commits the Republicans. who control the house are never going to vote against him whatever evidence is shown.

Why isn't this done properly in neutral judges and jurors? Total mockery isn't it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-51231047


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, January 24, 2020, 10:09:51
The picture painted is of a classroom of unruly children ….. except with better security than in a US school.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 24, 2020, 10:44:40
 One bright spark is that the NHS will be better off by £350m each week come next Friday, wonder what they wil be spending it on?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, January 24, 2020, 10:48:01
One bright spark is that the NHS will be better off by £350m each week come next Friday, wonder what they wil be spending it on?

50,000 new nurses and 40 new hospitals.... Johnson said so during the election campaign, and he wouldn't lie.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, January 28, 2020, 14:42:49
Johnson now aiming the money tree cannon squarely at the Reg vote:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51272817


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, January 28, 2020, 14:50:48
I think he might be barking up the wrong tree!

In other news...3 days before 'taking back control' of its sovereignty, the UK hands it over to China.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jan/28/boris-johnson-gives-green-light-for-huawei-5g-infrastructure-role


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, January 28, 2020, 14:58:02
I think he might be barking up the wrong tree!

In other news...3 days before 'taking back control' of its sovereignty, the UK hands it over to China.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jan/28/boris-johnson-gives-green-light-for-huawei-5g-infrastructure-role
tbf, it was a straight choice between surrendering sovereignty to China or the US. We'll have plenty of opportunities for the US to bend us over a table in the years to come as we beg for whatever scraps we can get in a trade deal so seems only fair to give the Chinese a taste of the action too


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, January 28, 2020, 15:01:22
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, January 28, 2020, 15:11:20
When the penny drops that 'taking back control' really means 'now we're everyone's bitch', it won't be pretty.  On our own, we're simply going to have to do as we're told by bigger players.

The EU 'negotiations' will be another interesting episode.  The terms of any trade deal will be, essentially, what the EU decides they will be.  That tends to be what happens when you 'negotiate' with a body that's 10 times bigger than you are.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, January 28, 2020, 15:23:59
I think he might be barking up the wrong tree!

In other news...3 days before 'taking back control' of its sovereignty, the UK hands it over to China.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jan/28/boris-johnson-gives-green-light-for-huawei-5g-infrastructure-role

In the minds of Brexiteers, trade negotiations with China..... involve gunboats up the Yangtze, to encourage them to sell us tea in exchange for opium.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, January 28, 2020, 15:46:18
Johnson now aiming the money tree cannon squarely at the Reg vote:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51272817

£500m, yep thats going to sort it!

Just more window dressing to appear to be doing something whilst doing nothing of any actual value. Its just a strategy of looking like you are doing something in the north, see also the nonsense about stripping northern of the franchise.

(in perspective £6.3bn was found for no deal Brexit planning and the £500m represents less than two weeks of the financial gain we are making from leaving the EU).

From Christian Wolmer railway writer and journalist on Twitter...

The ridiculous amount of coverage of the 'reversing Beeching' proposals demonstrates how a bit of spin can go a long way - it is not £500m, but £250m as half is already included in NR's budget. In fact, only £20m is announced today, and part of that is 'feasibility' studies. Moreover, Beeching's report led to 5,000 miles of closure and a full £500m would buy, optimistically, at most, 75 miles, more likely 50, Yet, by and large the media has lapped it up as a significant announcement.

When the penny drops that 'taking back control' really means 'now we're everyone's bitch', it won't be pretty.  On our own, we're simply going to have to do as we're told by bigger players.

The EU 'negotiations' will be another interesting episode.  The terms of any trade deal will be, essentially, what the EU decides they will be.  That tends to be what happens when you 'negotiate' with a body that's 10 times bigger than you are.

Varadkar (sp?) noted this yesterday noting its basically 27 states v. 1 and a market of 400+ million v. 60m. He noted if it were two football teams who would you back?

The penny will never drop as it will just be someone else's fault, that's what sadly happens to those who have been groomed or gaslighted. https://thepinprick.com/2017/12/15/ladybird-libertarians-dan-hannan-paddington-and-the-pernicious-impact-of-1960s-british-propaganda-on-the-brexit-thinkers/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, January 28, 2020, 17:20:43
£500m, yep thats going to sort it!

Just more window dressing to appear to be doing something whilst doing nothing of any actual value. Its just a strategy of looking like you are doing something in the north, see also the nonsense about stripping northern of the franchise.

(in perspective £6.3bn was found for no deal Brexit planning and the £500m represents less than two weeks of the financial gain we are making from leaving the EU).

From Christian Wolmer railway writer and journalist on Twitter...

The ridiculous amount of coverage of the 'reversing Beeching' proposals demonstrates how a bit of spin can go a long way - it is not £500m, but £250m as half is already included in NR's budget. In fact, only £20m is announced today, and part of that is 'feasibility' studies. Moreover, Beeching's report led to 5,000 miles of closure and a full £500m would buy, optimistically, at most, 75 miles, more likely 50, Yet, by and large the media has lapped it up as a significant announcement.

Varadkar (sp?) noted this yesterday noting its basically 27 states v. 1 and a market of 400+ million v. 60m. He noted if it were two football teams who would you back?

The penny will never drop as it will just be someone else's fault, that's what sadly happens to those who have been groomed or gaslighted. https://thepinprick.com/2017/12/15/ladybird-libertarians-dan-hannan-paddington-and-the-pernicious-impact-of-1960s-british-propaganda-on-the-brexit-thinkers/


Just think, you and PaulD amongst others have five, maybe ten years of this material to work with, you must be as happy with that as i am. Not forgetting back up material of Great Britain’s exit from a common market trading club acting like a sovereign nation to play with when there is nothing to quote from the Guardian or Daily Mirror. Everyone’s a winner. 🇬🇧🕚🍻


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 10:45:53
Well there you go....

Get those who led the campaign to carry out the review to ensure you get a rigorous result....

https://www.ft.com/content/5dc2f7b0-41f5-11ea-a047-eae9bd51ceba

Conclusion, nothing to do with us guv!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 12:02:40
Disabled man starved to death after his benefits were stopped

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-51283186

IDS got a knighthood for this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 12:20:05
I see there is a Blur V Oasis type battle for the music charts in the remain v Brexit camp.

Remain's song is 'Ode to Joy' whereas the Brexit offering is by a gentleman called Dominic Frisby with his song '17 million fuck offs'

https://order-order.com/2020/01/27/get-17-million-f-os-number-1-time-brexit/

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/eu-anthem-ode-to-joy-by-andre-rieu-to-chart-this-week-1-6487860


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 12:26:43
I see there is a Blur V Oasis type battle for the music charts in the remain v Brexit camp.

Remain's song is 'Ode to Joy' whereas the Brexit offering is by a gentleman called Dominic Frisby with his song '17 million fuck offs'

https://order-order.com/2020/01/27/get-17-million-f-os-number-1-time-brexit/

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/eu-anthem-ode-to-joy-by-andre-rieu-to-chart-this-week-1-6487860

Well that sums up the two camps nicely.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 12:54:42
Well that sums up the two camps nicely.
Yes, pathetic on both sides


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 12:55:25
Yes, pathetic on both sides
Absolutely.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 13:05:50
I was chatting my son who also lives out here. We have both informed HMRC we now live in Greece. He told me that he was now no longer entitled to claim child benefit.

I always thought universal social benefits were payable no matter where you live in the EU.

He is unable to claim any Greek social benefit - if he needed to - for 5 years. This was also an option for the UK to impose on others entering the UK. The UK government chose not to and only imposed a 3 month wait.

So all this bollocks about Johnny Foreigner coming here just for the benefits is actually a UK choice. They could have introduced a 5 year wait if they wanted to. It has nothing at all to do with being in the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 13:15:15
I was chatting my son who also lives out here. We have both informed HMRC we now live in Greece. He told me that he was now no longer entitled to claim child benefit.

I always thought universal social benefits were payable no matter where you live in the EU.

He is unable to claim any Greek social benefit - if he needed to - for 5 years. This was also an option for the UK to impose on others entering the UK. The UK government chose not to and only imposed a 3 month wait.

So all this bollocks about Johnny Foreigner coming here just for the benefits is actually a UK choice. They could have introduced a 5 year wait if they wanted to. It has nothing at all to do with being in the EU.
Yes that was always the case. Like most of this shit, it was largely made up. Substantial amounts by one Alexander Pfeffel Boris Johnson who made a career in journalism out of manufacturing lies about the EU for the right-wing press who lapped it up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 13:16:37
yeah but deytookouuurjooooobs


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 13:17:18
It's one of the biggest lies of all from the leave campaign, and others.

Britain always had control over its borders. It was always able to limit immigration, the (British) government just chose not to.

IF, there has been too much immigration, it's not the EU's fault - the blame lies fairly and squarely with the government which has, for some time, been the same people that are blaming the EU.

And the unwashed massed continue to lap it all up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 13:35:17
Disabled man starved to death after his benefits were stopped

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-51283186

IDS got a knighthood for this.

Saw that, shocking in a so called civilised Country.

Setting aside the petty bollocks about Bercow not getting a knighthood, the one that seems more shocking is Ken Clarke when you compare him with IDS.

I see there is a Blur V Oasis type battle for the music charts in the remain v Brexit camp.

Remain's song is 'Ode to Joy' whereas the Brexit offering is by a gentleman called Dominic Frisby with his song '17 million fuck offs'

https://order-order.com/2020/01/27/get-17-million-f-os-number-1-time-brexit/

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/eu-anthem-ode-to-joy-by-andre-rieu-to-chart-this-week-1-6487860

Sad isn't it, although it does illustrate one peculiar thing.

Much has been made by the Brexiteers of Friday being some sort of celebration, however, as this song seems to illustrate they seem very keen on celebrating that they 'won' but not celebrating what their win means?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 13:46:21
Much has been made by the Brexiteers of Friday being some sort of celebration, however, as this song seems to illustrate they seem very keen on celebrating that they 'won' but not celebrating what their win means?
If LL is anything to go by, that might be because they can't explain what it means, beyond that they "won". "Brexit means Brexit", to coin a phrase.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 14:11:57
Are there going to be big parties on Friday night to celebrate this auspicious occasion. I've not been invited to anything :(


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 14:18:04
Are there going to be big parties on Friday night to celebrate this auspicious occasion. I've not been invited to anything :(
well there's this one, with "Brittish" food and music from "Brittish" singers such as Kylie :)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EPXJGA9W4AA6cKX?format=jpg&name=small)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 14:22:38
well there's this one, with "Brittish" food and music from "Brittish" singers such as Kylie :)

And 'Beetles', although that might just be the food they are serving!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 14:23:11
I imagine British food will encapsulate a good Curry & maybe SpagBol


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 14:27:41
well there's this one, with "Brittish" food and music from "Brittish" singers such as Kylie :)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EPXJGA9W4AA6cKX?format=jpg&name=small)

Kylie!!

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Apparently, she has British citizenship mind you!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 14:28:13
Is that Wobbly Bob in the background?  :sherlock:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 14:43:26
Is that Wobbly Bob in the background?  :sherlock:

I should be so lucky.

 :pint:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 14:54:21
Probably the most famous group in the world - ever. Beetles!

Ffs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 16:17:07
The realisation that irrelevance beckons?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-farage-speech-european-parliament-eu-a9307986.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, January 31, 2020, 09:39:07
 An historic day.  My mind wanders back to Friday 24th June 16, I bumped into FB in the Vic, I wasn't at my best explaining I'd been up til about 5:00 in the pub, watching the results come in.... he wondered why.... I explained: history being made.

 So here we are 3 and a half year later, still none the wiser what Leave will achieve. According to Tomlinson it's....

Quote
“We have taken back control of our borders, laws and money, and will once again have an independent trade policy.

as I said none the wiser.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, January 31, 2020, 09:58:01
Hope you all have a great time celebrating tonight. English bubbly chilling 🇬🇧🥂 🎉🎊🎉🎊 

Love Europe, fucking hate the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, January 31, 2020, 10:00:23
Englsih bubbly? Fucking heathen


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, January 31, 2020, 10:00:55
Englsih bubbly? Fucking heathen

I have been called worse you must try harder. 🥂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, January 31, 2020, 10:07:22
Hope you all have a great time celebrating tonight. English bubbly chilling 🇬🇧🥂 🎉🎊🎉🎊 

Love Europe, fucking hate the EU.

Out of interest without asking you to define what you understand as Europe, as geographically it's debatable, what is it about Europe that you love?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 31, 2020, 11:32:39
Hope you all have a great time celebrating tonight. English bubbly chilling 🇬🇧🥂 🎉🎊🎉🎊 

Love Europe, fucking hate the EU.

Indeed, congratulations on making us a Vassal State, something Brexiteers always claimed we were, when we weren't, but have now successfully dragged us down to.

Its a proud day for all!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Friday, January 31, 2020, 16:07:08
I think something's got stuck in my eye...

https://www.facebook.com/1017420031/posts/10218846399083839/ (https://www.facebook.com/1017420031/posts/10218846399083839/)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 31, 2020, 16:09:20
Some positive news at last.

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-day-benefits-of-leaving-eu-9311001


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Friday, January 31, 2020, 23:49:04
So many salty middle class cunts. The tears are absolute joy 😂😂😂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, January 31, 2020, 23:50:17
Please don't feed the troll.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, January 31, 2020, 23:57:06
Indeed, congratulations on making us a Vassal State, something Brexiteers always claimed we were, when we weren't, but have now successfully dragged us down to.

Its a proud day for all!

Get out while you still can then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 00:01:45
Jayohaitchen, Horlock07, Readingred, Reg, PaulD... your boys took a hell of a beating, now back to your soy latte’s you soft woke cunts 😂

The pain and tears from you guys over the the last 3 years has been an absolute entertainment fest. I must thank you for the absolute pleasure you have provided us on the centre and right of the political spectrum. It’s been delightful, yet also embarrassing that you dismiss democracy. But hey, that’s what you radical left wing socialist are like, and why you will never be the majority with your pathetic beta male views.

God bless Britannia and fuck the EU 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

Your tears 😭😭😭😭


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 00:03:31
Please don't feed the troll.

Please please don’t engage with opposing views of mine. My echo chamber can not be broken 😂😂😂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 00:04:47
Jayohaitchen, Horlock07, Readingred, Reg, PaulD... your boys took a hell of a beating, now back to your soy latte’s you soft woke cunts 😂

The pain and tears from you guys over the the last 3 years has been an absolute entertainment fest. I must thank you for the absolute pleasure you have provided us on the centre and right of the political spectrum. It’s been delightful, yet also embarrassing that you dismiss democracy. But hey, that’s what you radical left wing socialist are like, and why you will never be the majority with your pathetic beta male views.

God bless Britannia and fuck the EU 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

Your tears 😭😭😭😭

Fucking priceless, couldn’t have put it better myself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 00:06:54
Some positive news at last.

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-day-benefits-of-leaving-eu-9311001

There’s nothing positive about the Independent. If that’s where you are looking for hope than you are a lost cause. I suspect your wife knows this anyhow...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 00:15:20
Oh look, it's Hobocunt. It's a very rubbish attempt at trolling. Then again, not a bad attempt considering you are still shitting yellow.

You do know wanking into two socks is more realistic than one? Pro tip, you may need.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 00:19:06
Please don't feed the troll


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 00:19:36
A celebratory toast to the WINNERS 🥂 . Come on guys, you respect democracy surely? What’s that? Your middle class views are of more importance than the working man? How so?
Those of you who have been patronising and dismissive of democracy are the ones with egg on your face, you look pathetic and little right now. Britain is one of a few countries that actually carries out democracy, to the distain of you elitist cunts.
Today is a victory for democratic principles whether you agree with the decision or not. If you don’t then you are authoritarian, and that makes you left wing cunts fascists, and my you keep telling us how bad they are 😂

You are the modern fascist, and we have defeated you. Toddle pip, I assume you’ll be popping off to the south of France to live right? Now that you have been defeated n all .

😂😂😂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 00:21:38
Please don't feed the troll
How many times can you beg not to have your echo chamber breeched? 😘


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: woolster on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 00:23:00
Jayohaitchen, Horlock07, Readingred, Reg, PaulD... your boys took a hell of a beating, now back to your soy latte’s you soft woke cunts 😂

The pain and tears from you guys over the the last 3 years has been an absolute entertainment fest. I must thank you for the absolute pleasure you have provided us on the centre and right of the political spectrum. It’s been delightful, yet also embarrassing that you dismiss democracy. But hey, that’s what you radical left wing socialist are like, and why you will never be the majority with your pathetic beta male views.

God bless Britannia and fuck the EU 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

Your tears 😭😭😭😭
:clap: :clap:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 00:23:34
 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

I thought this thread might get embarrassing about 11pm. It hasn’t disappointed!



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 00:24:38
What a day. Ginger Pelé returns, left wing fascists defeated, Swindon top of the league. The town end will be rocking tomorrow and rightly so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 00:29:56
:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

I thought this thread might get embarrassing about 11pm. It hasn’t disappointed!



I’d suggest your timings out by about three years, minimum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 00:30:32
Oh look, it's Hobocunt. It's a very rubbish attempt at trolling. Then again, not a bad attempt considering you are still shitting yellow.

You do know wanking into two socks is more realistic than one? Pro tip, you may need.

The tears, the tears 😭 I can feel sadness in your beta male voice 😭😭😭


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: woolster on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 00:32:56
What a day. Ginger Pelé returns, left wing fascists defeated, Swindon top of the league. The town end will be rocking tomorrow and rightly so.
the town end does not rock anymore and is mainly full of fuckwits. the Arkells has more life in it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 00:38:00
the town end does not rock anymore and is mainly full of fuckwits. the Arkells has more life in it

Maybe I’ll join you I’m the Arkell. My family ticket has yet to be bought


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: woolster on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 00:50:11
Maybe I’ll join you I’m the Arkell. My family ticket has yet to be bought
I sit in the DRS, its embarrassing listening to the 20 plus Mongs in the town end constantly
singing how they hate Oxford every game :zzz:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 00:55:32
I sit in the DRS, its embarrassing listening to the 20 plus Mongs in the town end constantly
singing how they hate Oxford every game :zzz:

I agree, absolutely tedious. I really couldn’t care for any other team, or see the point in singing about other teams.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 01:11:35
About 12.5


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 01:20:46
A new dawn  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 01:35:38
I'm back in the country in a couple of weeks, does this mean the bananas will be more bendy?

Reg, look on the positive side.  The Polish wont be allowed in now, so because money always rules there will be a much bigger influx of Bangladeshi people to escape their sweat shops and keep the poor sidelined Brits out of jobs still.

Oh, and when the UK signs up to a trade deal with the USA I would avoid buying chicken, very rarely is it any good from a supermarket here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 08:00:28
What a day. Ginger Pelé returns, left wing fascists defeated, Swindon top of the league. The town end will be rocking tomorrow and rightly so.

Why do you care? You were always a Man City fan Dan, no?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 08:02:32
The tears, the tears 😭 I can feel sadness in your beta male voice 😭😭😭


Ahhhh “beta male voice” - the language of the angry incel. Explains a lot


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 09:00:41
The salty tears. Glorious 😂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 09:28:37
Big piece on Spanish news this morning. How the UK like the rest of Europe buy most of their fruit and veg from the Andalusia region east of Malaga.
It was basically saying it’s going to cost the uk so much more money as there is no way they are striking a deal with the uk as good as the rest of Europe .
Days of cheap fruit and veg are going. Best get an allotment


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nijholts Nuts on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 09:38:37
Don't worry we'll grow our very own British produce that will be bigger and better than anything that any Europeans can grow.
The great British soil will cultivate anything we choose now that no foreigners will ever step foot on it again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 09:39:59
Don't worry we'll grow our very own British produce that will be bigger and better than anything that any Europeans can grow.
The great British soil will cultivate anything we choose now that no foreigners will ever step foot on it again.
Yeah, but there will be no cheap foreign labour to pick it.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 09:52:29
Big piece on Spanish news this morning. How the UK like the rest of Europe buy most of their fruit and veg from the Andalusia region east of Malaga.
It was basically saying it’s going to cost the uk so much more money as there is no way they are striking a deal with the uk as good as the rest of Europe .
Days of cheap fruit and veg are going. Best get an allotment

What a load of old bollocks. Firstly, they will do what the EU tell them to do. Secondly, there is nothing that we cannot get from another part of the world that they grow. Why, Pedro just has to look a cross the straights of Gibraltar and the south side of the greater Mediterranean to see where we can get what they produce. Thirdly, do you really think an economy fucked over by the EU and the € with unemployment as bad as it is is going to try and screw us over? Fourthly, suppose they tried to and our importers went elsewhere, who is going to pick up their slack? Fifthly, agri produce outside the EU is some 20-30% cheaper because of import tariffs and the CAP and lest you missed the general thread of leaving the EU, we can get what the fuck we like from wherever we like. Think Pedro and his chums had better wise up. Posturing Spaniards, tried it once before and well, let’s just say that didn’t turn out well for the armada did it. 🤣🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 09:53:55
But isn’t the point of Brexit that we can do Trade deals with other countries now? Spain isn’t the only place that grows fruit and veg on the planet. Surely the advantage we have is that we can do deals with say Israel (maybe a bad example but!) or South Africa? That can be used as a bargaining chip against Spain that they either get something from us or we go elsewhere?

It’s probably nowhere near that straightforward mind you!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 10:08:19
But isn’t the point of Brexit that we can do Trade deals with other countries now? Spain isn’t the only place that grows fruit and veg on the planet. Surely the advantage we have is that we can do deals with say Israel (maybe a bad example but!) or South Africa? That can be used as a bargaining chip against Spain that they either get something from us or we go elsewhere?

It’s probably nowhere near that straightforward mind you!

With advancements in production, storage and transportation of fresh goods (after all those lovely grapes from Chile didn’t taste to bad did they?) the world has become a smaller place. Back in the day all lamb from NZ for example was frozen. Now it is slaughtered, butchered, vac packed and deep chilled Loaded onto containers and arrives a few weeks later in your local supermarket. pedro’s tomato’s stand no chance. Still the birds, insects and other wildlife will enjoy them rotting in the field. TBF it is not going to get like that, the great and the good now know they are up against it with Boris, as they should have been under May, except she did what she could to fuck us over while still trying to sell us a leaving deal with more holes than a sieve.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 10:13:47
With advancements in production, storage and transportation of fresh goods (after all those lovely grapes from Chile didn’t taste to bad did they?) the world has become a smaller place. Back in the day all lamb from NZ for example was frozen. Now it is slaughtered, butchered, vac packed and deep chilled Loaded onto containers and arrives a few weeks later in your local supermarket. pedro’s tomato’s stand no chance. Still the birds, insects and other wildlife will enjoy them rotting in the field. TBF it is not going to get like that, the great and the good now know they are up against it with Boris, as they should have been under May, except she did what she could to fuck us over while still trying to sell us a leaving deal with more holes than a sieve.
Are you frothing at the mouth yet?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 10:30:11
With advancements in production, storage and transportation of fresh goods (after all those lovely grapes from Chile didn’t taste to bad did they?) the world has become a smaller place. 

The world is a smaller place in the grip of climate change... although you seeem to deny it. How this pans out will decide about the future of food supplies etc in or out the EU neither here or there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 10:54:03
Interesting to see LL's wife and daughter son interviewed on TV about Brexit:

https://twitter.com/SpillerOfTea/status/1223376616090415104


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 11:46:52
And I'm guessing Hobodan is "Wayne"....

 https://twitter.com/g_gosden/status/1223299431497445377?s=20 (https://twitter.com/g_gosden/status/1223299431497445377?s=20)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 12:37:38
Are you frothing at the mouth yet?

Only from my toothpaste. You should try using it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 12:38:33
Interesting to see LL's wife and daughter interviewed on TV about Brexit:

https://twitter.com/SpillerOfTea/status/1223376616090415104

I don’t have a daughter and I have not clicked your posted either, grow up.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 12:40:26
whree got eeeerr freerdum bck


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 12:42:12
Someone tell P a u l he is blocked so he is rattling around in his empty vessel making noise I cannot hear.

80 seat majority and we are out, no more to be said.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 12:45:11
Stop saying it then.  Its dull.

And you telling people to grow up when you've ranted on like a child calling the Spanish 'Pedro' is pretty bloody rich.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 13:15:01
I don’t have a daughter and I have not clicked your posted either, grow up.

Apologies. 

I will correct


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 14:10:04
Calling the Spanish people Pedro when Antonio, Lucas, Jose or Carmen would be much more precise. Pedro isn't even in the Top 25 of all Hispanic names, let alone Spain.

Your arrogance and ignorance, is hardly surprising. Yet you want to go and holiday in their neighbouring country, who has many Spanish visitors every year. In fact you're just as likely to bump into a Spaniard in Portugal as you are a Brit. With both having around 1.8m visit every year.

Your comments are nearly at Hobocunt levels of 'Yellow shittery'.

You LL are huevos rotos. Let's hope someone can make a half decent omelette out of you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 17:45:21
Funny Spain is being discussed now its emerging that in a massive shocker the EU will now support Spain and their political aims re Gibraltar now their opponents are no longer members of the EU.

Who would of thunk it...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 18:05:17
Funny Spain is being discussed now its emerging that in a massive shocker the EU will now support Spain and their political aims re Gibraltar now their opponents are no longer members of the EU.

Who would of thunk it...

Taking back control...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 18:08:31
Funny Spain is being discussed now its emerging that in a massive shocker the EU will now support Spain and their political aims re Gibraltar now their opponents are no longer members of the EU.

Who would of thunk it...

That just about sums up the EU thank god we are out


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 18:10:43
the EU sticking up for EU countries sums the EU up....

er, yeah, I suppose it does


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 18:16:32
That just about sums up the EU thank god we are out

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: I think you’ve unintentionally summed up Brexiteers.

I was born in Gib. Chance to collect another passport! Result!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 18:31:59
Funny Spain is being discussed now its emerging that in a massive shocker the EU will now support Spain and their political aims re Gibraltar now their opponents are no longer members of the EU.

Who would of thunk it...


Pssst Gibraltar voted 99% remain. Fact.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 18:41:56

Pssst Gibraltar voted 99% remain. Fact.

And Spain will help them realise this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 18:43:53
:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: I think you’ve unintentionally summed up Brexiteers.

I was born in Gib. Chance to collect another passport! Result!

Typical of the EU to try and threaten another countries sovereignty of which Gibraltar is a part of ours.

The sooner the EU is no more and back to a common trade area (as we were told in 1975) the better


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Richie Wellen-Dowd on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 18:50:39

Pssst Gibraltar voted 99% remain. Fact.

They also voted 99% to stay completely British in 2002. Of course, that may have changed somewhat after Brexit, I don't know.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 18:56:13
Can someone close this thread or rename it fucking Brexit talk.  It's not politics.  It's right wingers shouting and left wingers shouting back.  Frankly it's become a fucking boring thread for the like of LL, OR and the other one who came on calling everyone who disagreed with him cunts last night great fun trolling people.

The only reason I open the bloody thread is that my OCD doesn't allow me to leave that flashing 'new' notification unopened.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 18:56:37
Typical of the EU to try and threaten another countries sovereignty of which Gibraltar is a part of ours.

The sooner the EU is no more and back to a common trade area (as we were told in 1975) the better
Taking note of Britain's history it's a bit rich to start raising threatening other countries sovereignty.

It was blindingly obvious this was going to happen since 2015, no idea why there is this pearl clutching going on, you knew it was inevitable, you voted for it to happen, time to own your choices?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 19:18:11
Taking note of Britain's history it's a bit rich to start raising threatening other countries sovereignty.

It was blindingly obvious this was going to happen since 2015, no idea why there is this pearl clutching going on, you knew it was inevitable, you voted for it to happen, time to own your choices?

Right ok so you vote to come out of a political union and it’s acceptable then that one of your sovereign territories is threatened?
Oh please


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 20:36:24
Right ok so you vote to come out of a political union and it’s acceptable then that one of your sovereign territories is threatened?
Oh please

It has been clear for some time that the integrity of the UK and territories like Gibraltar would be threatened by Brexit.  Scotland is likely to go its own way at some point - or at least to push for a different settlement to the one it has now.  NI's position in the union is also in question, with Republicans seeing a real chance now to move the dial.  Johnson has still not addressed the inherent contradiction in his plan for NI to remain de facto in the EU customs union.

If you voted for Brexit, you voted to make these things more likely - and for the UK (for as long as it exists in its current form) to have a diminished role in the world.  The prospect of this doesn't bother me unduly, to be honest.  But, ironically, I suspect that it will bother a great many of the people who voted to bring it about.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 1, 2020, 21:07:41
Can someone close this thread or rename it fucking Brexit talk.  It's not politics.  It's right wingers shouting and left wingers shouting back.  Frankly it's become a fucking boring thread for the like of LL, OR and the other one who came on calling everyone who disagreed with him cunts last night great fun trolling people.

The only reason I open the bloody thread is that my OCD doesn't allow me to leave that flashing 'new' notification unopened.

I understand actually. Which is why the ignore tab is my go default, excellent feature.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 3, 2020, 12:36:11
No wonder the country is in a mess, the Home Secretary doesn't appear bright enough to know the difference between a terrorist offender and a counter-terrorist.

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1224084178142158848

The danger of trying to sound tough by repeating your tough stance (no doubt drilled into her during Dom's briefing), and making a cock of yourself each time you say it.

In other news, he is just a crap Trump isn't he.....

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1224310337492672513


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, February 4, 2020, 14:19:12
A woman on LBC radio....

"I voted for Boris in the election, I would have voted for Corbyn but he said he was going to abolish food banks, and I rely on food banks."

Seriously? WTF.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 4, 2020, 14:27:24
A woman on LBC radio this morning....

"I voted for Boris in the election, I would have voted for Corbyn but he said he was going to abolish food banks, and I rely on food banks."

Seriously? WTF.

Did this really happen?

Its been floating around on social media for at least a couple of days, Natalie Rowe was tweeting about it on Sunday night, but there doesn't seem to be an audio clip of it anywhere that I can find?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, February 4, 2020, 14:27:57
Crikey!

If it wasn't so sad, it'd be fecking hilarious.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, February 4, 2020, 14:36:04
A mate of mine posted it said he heard it, he is usually truthful and not an outright Boris hater.

It saddens me if true but I am not surprised just disappointed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Tuesday, February 4, 2020, 15:57:35
I just read the last few days of this thread and reaffirmed the reasons I stay away from it.

People on both sides just turn into embarrassing knuckle dragging idiots..  a lot of you should be ashamed of yourselves, this thread is like an infant school forum - 25% worthy debate -  80% numpties.  God help the next generation of kids..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, February 4, 2020, 16:06:57
Only landowners and the gentry should be allowed to vote - male, of course.

It isn’t for the likes of us.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, February 5, 2020, 08:49:20
I just read the last few days of this thread and reaffirmed the reasons I stay away from it.

People on both sides just turn into embarrassing knuckle dragging idiots..  a lot of you should be ashamed of yourselves, this thread is like an infant school forum - 25% worthy debate -  80% numpties.  God help the next generation of kids..
tbf, faithfully reflecting our very own forum's 25% football - 80% bollocks stipulation


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 5, 2020, 10:19:50
tbf, faithfully reflecting our very own forum's 25% football - 80% bollocks stipulation
It also reflects what passes for political discourse in this country now, insults and whinging, almost entirely devoid of any actual arguments or even a passing relation to actual reality. We have the democracy we deserve.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 5, 2020, 12:36:26
It also reflects what passes for political discourse in this country now, insults and whinging, almost entirely devoid of any actual arguments or even a passing relation to actual reality. We have the democracy we deserve.

With a government formed of the best of the best! The paucity of MP's who appear to have a clue, on all sides of the political divide, is frankly horrific!

Going forward things are looking rather bleak https://www.ft.com/content/27b81994-4690-11ea-aeb3-955839e06441


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, February 5, 2020, 20:58:40
Government apparently backs domestic coal but doesn't support foreign coal in absolute non shocker!

Whilst they put on a front of "supporting" climate change at the 'UK - Africa 2020' initiative, they are supporting outdated non-renewable energy; a new thermal coal mining plant, on our doorstep.

A planning report (Horlock i'm looking for your thoughts) in Cumbria, claims that the thermal coal mine will be "broadly carbon neutral". Because of course, the burning of coal will always result in reducing CO² emissions?!

Post Brexit Britain, the Great United Kingdom, firmly drifting back to the 1970s with a policy that clearly does not meet our own proposed climate ambition.

Think this is the planning report:
http://councilportal.cumbria.gov.uk/documents/s90108/COMMITTEE%2520REPORT.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi54KbNprvnAhVcQkEAHe8dBAQQFjAFegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2E_X_uyMAX_I-hjgvjr6oR

Further reading:
https://www.desmog.co.uk/2020/01/15/new-cumbrian-coal-mine-incompatible-uk-s-climate-ambition-report


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, February 6, 2020, 09:44:25
Just how stupid are some politicians?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51397956


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 6, 2020, 11:31:52
Just how stupid are some politicians?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51397956

Very - next!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ReadingRed on Thursday, February 6, 2020, 11:52:08
Quote
Just how stupid are some politicians?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51397956

Surely not as stupid as Priti Patel though:

https://youtu.be/xk4EMBXxG5A (https://youtu.be/xk4EMBXxG5A)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 6, 2020, 12:28:50
Surely not as stupid as Priti Patel though:

https://youtu.be/xk4EMBXxG5A (https://youtu.be/xk4EMBXxG5A)

She has got even more reason to be pissed off, as she seems to have been usurped as unofficial Foreign Secretary by Johnson's old man having cosy little meetings with the Chinese Ambassador and then accidentally emailing his report to the BBC (suggesting its not just MP's but their parents also who are thick)!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, February 6, 2020, 14:36:08
didn't she get sacked last time for unofficial foreign meetings. people in glass houses


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 6, 2020, 14:56:56
This is just peculiar...

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1225434135419924480
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, February 6, 2020, 16:03:06
what the actual... dear lord


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 6, 2020, 17:09:11
Bloody bats, not being allowed to work yourselves to death and bring back the death penalty.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/which-eu-law-can-we-now-change-four-brexit-calls/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 6, 2020, 18:06:52
Government apparently backs domestic coal but doesn't support foreign coal in absolute non shocker!

Whilst they put on a front of "supporting" climate change at the 'UK - Africa 2020' initiative, they are supporting outdated non-renewable energy; a new thermal coal mining plant, on our doorstep.

A planning report (Horlock i'm looking for your thoughts) in Cumbria, claims that the thermal coal mine will be "broadly carbon neutral". Because of course, the burning of coal will always result in reducing CO² emissions?!

Post Brexit Britain, the Great United Kingdom, firmly drifting back to the 1970s with a policy that clearly does not meet our own proposed climate ambition.

Think this is the planning report:
http://councilportal.cumbria.gov.uk/documents/s90108/COMMITTEE%2520REPORT.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi54KbNprvnAhVcQkEAHe8dBAQQFjAFegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2E_X_uyMAX_I-hjgvjr6oR

Further reading:
https://www.desmog.co.uk/2020/01/15/new-cumbrian-coal-mine-incompatible-uk-s-climate-ambition-report

Thankfully I am not a mineral planner (so way out of my comfort zone), although a friend of mine is, at Cumbria CC!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, February 6, 2020, 18:29:27
Thankfully I am not a mineral planner (so way out of my comfort zone), although a friend of mine is, at Cumbria CC!!

Ouch!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 7, 2020, 09:58:14
Nice, yet another case of failing to plan for outcomes, this was reported in the Express but seems to have vanished once it became clear its what's known as shooting ones own foot off... (Brief summary below)

So on Saturday after the Brexiteers all had their little parties, Guernsey decided it would be a good idea to BAN French fishing vessels from within 12 miles of its shores..... but turns out the Guernsey fishing community had not quite thought through the repercussions of this tiny act of stupidity.

The French have decided that if that is the case then Guernsey fishing vessels will not be able to dock into French ports in Normandy (where the Guernsey fishing vessels unload ALL their catch), and also that Guernsey is surrounded by French waters where Guernsey fishing vessels are now banned.






Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 7, 2020, 10:37:34
Nice, yet another case of failing to plan for outcomes, this was reported in the Express but seems to have vanished once it became clear its what's known as shooting ones own foot off... (Brief summary below)

So on Saturday after the Brexiteers all had their little parties, Guernsey decided it would be a good idea to BAN French fishing vessels from within 12 miles of its shores..... but turns out the Guernsey fishing community had not quite thought through the repercussions of this tiny act of stupidity.

The French have decided that if that is the case then Guernsey fishing vessels will not be able to dock into French ports in Normandy (where the Guernsey fishing vessels unload ALL their catch), and also that Guernsey is surrounded by French waters where Guernsey fishing vessels are now banned.


That's Raab levels of stupidity. Surely it must have occurred to them that they are surrounded by French waters? It cannot have escaped their notice, it's not like the island has moved there recently!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, February 7, 2020, 11:09:16
Taking back control.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 7, 2020, 15:48:18
Tory council candidate jailed for making threats of violence against female Labour MP Yvette Cooper; he was supported in court by the current Tory MP Andrea Jenkyns who sent a character reference on his behalf. Nasty Party back in full effect I see.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 7, 2020, 17:25:00
Ouch!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-51413610


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, February 7, 2020, 17:33:45
Nice, yet another case of failing to plan for outcomes, this was reported in the Express but seems to have vanished once it became clear its what's known as shooting ones own foot off... (Brief summary below)

So on Saturday after the Brexiteers all had their little parties, Guernsey decided it would be a good idea to BAN French fishing vessels from within 12 miles of its shores..... but turns out the Guernsey fishing community had not quite thought through the repercussions of this tiny act of stupidity.

The French have decided that if that is the case then Guernsey fishing vessels will not be able to dock into French ports in Normandy (where the Guernsey fishing vessels unload ALL their catch), and also that Guernsey is surrounded by French waters where Guernsey fishing vessels are now banned.



Reading about that elsewhere, it appears as though it's not quite like that.

It's something to do with a temporary cock-up over permits that will be resolved rather than an active decision to ban them.

So it wasn't that cock-up, it was a different cock-up. A different sort of incompetence. A better sort of incompetence that was described, thankfully. One hopes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, February 7, 2020, 18:10:29
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-51413610

Cheers Horlock. Do you think the judge will pass it through?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 10, 2020, 10:27:40
Cheers Horlock. Do you think the judge will pass it through?

No idea way outside my area of planing and expertise and I have neither the time nor inclination to read up on the case, ultimately a JR is there to see if the decision maker has erred in law, its not there to overturn planning applications for subjective reasons, as the judiciary are always very careful to stay out of the planning system. It why all the fracking JR's failed, the Council had determined them correctly in law, just because the objectors don';t agree with the decision reached is not a reason for quashing!

See Buckland was on top form yesterday.

https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1226501229817352192



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, February 10, 2020, 10:32:48
No idea way outside my area of planing and expertise and I have neither the time nor inclination to read up on the case, ultimately a JR is there to see if the decision maker has erred in law, its not there to overturn planning applications for subjective reasons, as the judiciary are always very careful to stay out of the planning system. It why all the fracking JR's failed, the Council had determined them correctly in law, just because the objectors don';t agree with the decision reached is not a reason for quashing!

See Buckland was on top form yesterday.

https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1226501229817352192



And Marr just lets it go unchallenged.

The bloke's useless. That is unless he's doing what he's told to do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 10, 2020, 10:57:25
And Marr just lets it go unchallenged.

The bloke's useless. That is unless he's doing what he's told to do.

I think they have realised (rightly sadly) that people jut hear what they want to hear, so much as Patel making a complete bell end of herself wittering on about 'counter terrorists' the faithful just hear her being 'hard' on terrorists, likewise the bottom line on Bucklands message is taking action against johnny foreigner, which will be picked up, the fact that he is talking contrary nonsense will be ignored.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 10, 2020, 11:06:33
I think they have realised (rightly sadly) that people jut hear what they want to hear, so much as Patel making a complete bell end of herself wittering on about 'counter terrorists' the faithful just hear her being 'hard' on terrorists, likewise the bottom line on Bucklands message is taking action against johnny foreigner, which will be picked up, the fact that he is talking contrary nonsense will be ignored.
Which may well be the case. But it's no excuse for journalists not doing the basics of their job. Especially not when employed by the national broadcaster which we all pay for via the license fee.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 10, 2020, 12:14:39
Which may well be the case. But it's no excuse for journalists not doing the basics of their job. Especially not when employed by the national broadcaster which we all pay for via the license fee.

Just another way of turning people against the BBC to remove scrutiny sadly, classic Dom!

But don't worry we are now safe from unelected bureaucrats!

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/dominic-cummings-carrie-symonds-feud-21465832


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 10, 2020, 20:05:18
Remember when the boss of Norton Motorcycles was used by Steve Barclay as a poster boy for Great British Businesses Backing Brexit? They've just gone bust, due to, among other things, "uncertainties created by Brexit" #ProjectFear

https://www.business-live.co.uk/manufacturing/norton-motorcycles-administration-what-went-17665433


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 10, 2020, 20:09:19
Remember when Michael Gove insisted that it was just scaremongering to suggest that Brexit would mean additional red tape and tarriffs for British businesses? He's now told business to prepare for the reality - it will be "really costly" with "a lot of red tape" #ProjectFear

https://www.ft.com/content/37379a1e-4c28-11ea-95a0-43d18ec715f5


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, February 10, 2020, 21:16:38
But you only need to spout rubbish for as long as it takes to win the argument

Reality has to kick in at some point


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, February 10, 2020, 22:39:13
Still no sign of the Russia Report.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 09:19:04
if the alleged misapplication of public funds to Jennifer Arcuri were ever re-investigated and Johnson found guilty of a crime, could he have his nationality cancelled and be deported to the country of his birth (ie the USA)?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 09:41:24
Having the Jennifer Arcuri thing swept under the carpet means the police are complicit in that cover up - and that is sickening. Everybody should be concerned about that regardless of which side of the fence you stand.

But rather a lot of people are far too interested in 'winning'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 09:50:02
But you only need to spout rubbish for as long as it takes to win the argument

Reality has to kick in at some point
Not sure it will. In modern politics generally, there seems to be too many people who are too emotionally invested in their bad decisions to admit they might have got it wrong, and a general willingness among both the political class and the media that should be holding them to account to not bother too much about facts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 10:24:05
Having the Jennifer Arcuri thing swept under the carpet means the police are complicit in that cover up - and that is sickening. Everybody should be concerned about that regardless of which side of the fence you stand.

But rather a lot of people are far too interested in 'winning'.
Johnson used to influence the allocation of Londoners' tax payments to business entrepreneurs.

Now he influences the allocation of all of our tax payments  to the BBC (as noted above) and of course to the Police.  Hope Cressida will not be left feeling spurned like Jennifer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 10:45:52
Johnson used to influence the allocation of Londoners' tax payments to business entrepreneurs.

Now he influences the allocation of all of our tax payments  to the BBC (as noted above) and of course to the Police.  Hope Cressida will not be left feeling spurned like Jennifer.
His girlfriend is one of his senior advisers and apparently engaged in a turf war with his other senior adviser over the cabinet reshuffle, HS2, Huwaei etc, meanwhile he gets his Dad to do backdoor diplomacy with the Chinese ambassador (and like his son, fucking it up). Hurrah for nepotism!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 11:32:42
His girlfriend is one of his senior advisers and apparently engaged in a turf war with his other senior adviser over the cabinet reshuffle, HS2, Huwaei etc, meanwhile he gets his Dad to do backdoor diplomacy with the Chinese ambassador (and like his son, fucking it up). Hurrah for nepotism!

Interestingly it appears that Dom is not one of his better paid SPAD's, so who is topping up Doms wages one must ask?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 11:33:53
Interestingly it appears that Dom is not one of his better paid SPAD's, so who is topping up Doms wages one must ask?
And is he paid in dollars or roubles?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 12:20:47
Way outside my area of expertise, but why are the Windrush descendants who have had sentences over a year being deported, despite being British citizens, yet the Australian Rolf Harris who has so far served three years been allowed to stay here?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 12:27:49
Way outside my area of expertise, but why are the Windrush descendants who have had sentences over a year being deported, despite being British citizens, yet the Australian Rolf Harris who has so far served three years been allowed to stay here?
Hmm, let's think. What's the obvious difference between the Windrush descendants and Rolf Harris?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 12:29:55
Hmm, let's think. What's the obvious difference between the Windrush descendants and Rolf Harris?

They never introduced Cartoon Time?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 12:36:47
But I fort we held all the cards....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-financial-services-eu-michael-barnier-sajid-javid-a9329026.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 12:40:09
But I fort we held all the cards....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-financial-services-eu-michael-barnier-sajid-javid-a9329026.html
You missed the word "init" off that :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 14:48:44
Hmm, let's think. What's the obvious difference between the Windrush descendants and Rolf Harris?

I think you can get 12 months for possession of a class A drug, which the non UK born Johnson has admitted to, perhaps he should go too?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 15:46:43
(https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/84675285_2568196093419779_7214833020421799936_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ohc=onibYe0jugcAX_cImdm&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-1.fna&oh=df16f17b5c325ad9178c282332805b51&oe=5ED724AE)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 12, 2020, 15:52:44
Looks like stupidity is infectious. Priti Patel's Home Office have told an Italian man who has been here since 1966 and has applied for continued residency post-Brexit to get his parents to confirm his identity. He is 101 years old.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, February 12, 2020, 15:56:52
Poor excuse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, February 12, 2020, 15:58:31
Hmm, let's think. What's the obvious difference between the Windrush descendants and Rolf Harris?

Do you know what it is yet?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, February 12, 2020, 16:01:14
Looks like stupidity is infectious. Priti Patel's Home Office have told an Italian man who has been here since 1966 and has applied for continued residency post-Brexit to get his parents to confirm his identity. He is 101 years old.

But even if his parents were alive, who'd confirm their identity?
And if the parents' parents were alive, who'd confirm their identity?

I've seen something similar before, and it ended with turtles all the way down.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 09:52:09
Leadsom and McVey sacked then!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 10:05:44
Leadsom and McVey sacked then!
A tragic loss to the intellectual weight of the cabinet


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 10:11:28
A tragic loss to the intellectual weight of the cabinet

Julian Smith sacked as NI sec, simultaneously peeing off both NI and Ireland (with a resurgent SF), seems actually being able to understand and do your job is no longer sufficient in this government and a frankly worrying disregard for NI. Although to a degree he deserves it for all his work as Chief Whip breaking the pairing conventions.

Still waiting with baited breath for the key announcement, has Dom confirmed whether Johnson can stay as PM.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 10:34:18
From Beeb...

Here are the sackings we know so far:

    Julian Smith as Northern Ireland secretary
    Andrea Leadsom as business secretary
    Theresa Villiers as environment secretary
    Esther McVey as housing minister
    Nusrat Ghani as transport minister
    Chris Skidmore as education minister
    George Freeman as transport minister

Geoffrey Cox is also gone - he says he has resigned as attorney general.

We already know that Nicky Morgan was leaving her role of culture secretary.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 11:53:00
Blimey! Sajid Javid has resigned, reportedly because of Cummings interfering with his SPADs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 11:59:18
Blimey! Sajid Javid has resigned, reportedly because of Cummings interfering with his SPADs.

Poor soul never even got to deliver a budget, to lose a chancellor 4 weeks before the budget is pretty crap.

Shred of integrity shockers, and lack of integrity/ambition from the incomer as its clear that he really will be Chino!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 12:01:43
Wow bet that has all you lefties excited.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 12:03:33
Poor soul never even got to deliver a budget, to lose a chancellor 4 weeks before the budget is pretty crap.
Better than the SNP though, losing one on the morning of a budget.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 12:06:54
Wow bet that has all you lefties excited.
That an inept PM with no grasp of detail has handed control of the economy to a junior minister with no experience just at a time when he's about to tank the economy? "Excited" isn't the word I'd use. Terrified might be a better fit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 12:26:50
If you had told me this morning that I would end the day admiring Sajid David, I would never have believed you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 12:28:01
Leadsom sacked then!

Just at the time when our local Tories thought she was doing a good job... especially re Honda closing.

Quote
The council's (SBC) cabinet member for economy and place Oliver Donachie said: "I was impressed by the minister – she had a real grasp of the nuance of the situation and it was good to have someone really getting on top of the detail and not just saying nice words."

I'm surprised Buckland asn't gone yet, having stood up to Cummings by saying that he (Buckland) thought that an independent judiicary was a cornerstone of democracy.  Not sure how much longer he'll have holding such radical views


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 12:29:51
I'm surprised Buckland asn't gone yet, having stood up to Cummings by saying that he (Buckland) thought that an independent judiicary was a cornerstone of democracy.  Not sure how much longer he'll have holding such radical views
That won't fit in well with our new Trump-inspired overlords. Although tbh I'd assumed he was due to replace Cox as AG, as he's amply demonstrated that whatever his nice words, he's more than happy to bend over in practice when required.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 12:31:41
That an inept PM with no grasp of detail has handed control of the economy to a junior minister with no experience just at a time when he's about to tank the economy? "Excited" isn't the word I'd use. Terrified might be a better fit.

Excellent. Put it like this, if Corbyn had got in with a 78 seat Majority you’d be more than terrified. And with that I’d be stood side by side with you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 12:32:26
Wow bet that has all you lefties excited.

Whilst I am not a leftie (always makes me smile when someone on the right reveals that they consider anyone with a shred of moral and social decency must be a 'leftie' like its some kind of insult), the whole thing is frankly hilarious (Albeit very troubling for the country as a whole).

If the stories circulating are correct that Javid went because he refused to sack all his advisors and have them replaced by some hand picked by Cummings then one must assume that these are the terms under which his successor has taken the job, which basically suggests that Cummings has now taken control of the Treasury along with no.10 so we now have puppets in our key positions of governance.

As Cummings is now Chancellor, I wonder whether he views this in financial terms or as it was construed in 30's Germany, he will be sacking the Queen next!

For those of us who like political history, its worth remembering how well Howe's resignation went for Tharcher. Johnson has decided that Cummings is more important to him than Javid (and, by inference, any other minister). In sending that message to the ministers in his government and to his MPs, he's just substantially cut his political base in Westminster, majority or not.

TL/DR....

The current government is so morally bankrupt Sajid Javid has resigned from it on a matter of principle.
Sajid Javid.
Principles.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 12:32:30
That won't fit in well with our new Trump-inspired overlords. Although tbh I'd assumed he was due to replace Cox as AG, as he's amply demonstrated that whatever his nice words, he's more than happy to bend over in practice when required.

Very true.... I could have been impressed by Buckland's stance, if I believed a word he said.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 12:32:37
A tragic loss to the intellectual weight of the cabinet
Considering who's left in the cabinet, this is, laughably, quite probably true.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 12:35:11
That won't fit in well with our new Trump-inspired overlords. Although tbh I'd assumed he was due to replace Cox as AG, as he's amply demonstrated that whatever his nice words, he's more than happy to bend over in practice when required.

Suggestion that Suella Braverman is going to get the AG post, this government is the gift that keeps giving for the satirist!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 12:37:38
Whilst I am not a leftie (always makes me smile when someone on the right reveals that they consider anyone with a shred of moral and social decency must be a 'leftie' like its some kind of insult), the whole thing is frankly hilarious (Albeit very troubling for the country as a whole).

If the stories circulating are correct that Javid went because he refused to sack all his advisors and have them replaced by some hand picked by Cummings then one must assume that these are the terms under which his successor has taken the job, which basically suggests that Cummings has now taken control of the Treasury along with no.10 so we now have puppets in our key positions of governance.

As Cummings is now Chancellor, I wonder whether he views this in financial terms or as it was construed in 30's Germany, he will be sacking the Queen next!

For those of us who like political history, its worth remembering how well Howe's resignation went for Tharcher. Johnson has decided that Cummings is more important to him than Javid (and, by inference, any other minister). In sending that message to the ministers in his government and to his MPs, he's just substantially cut his political base in Westminster, majority or not.

TL/DR....

The current government is so morally bankrupt Sajid Javid has resigned from it on a matter of principle.
Sajid Javid.
Principles.



You mean the same as anyone who reads the mail, express etc is far right?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 12:40:26
No, just intellectually challenged.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 12:46:35
Buckland stays.

You mean the same as anyone who reads the mail, express etc is far right?

I would reply, but my learned friend Exiled Bob has answered more elequantly than I ever could  :D :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 12:49:17
You mean the same as anyone who reads the mail, express etc is far right?

When has anyone here ever said mail / express readers like yourself are far right!?

Not all are far right at all. Many are just bigots.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DMReporter/status/1226455248048394241


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 13:03:44
More on the re-shuffle: Priti Patel will continue in her role in going after those counter-terrorists.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 13:07:12
Little quiz, without checking who is now the longest serving cabinet member (without a break)?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 13:09:24
You mean the same as anyone who reads the mail, express etc is far right?
No-one has said that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 13:43:25
Little quiz, without checking who is now the longest serving cabinet member (without a break)?

Good question.  None of them seem to last very long these days, but there are some like Gove who pops up with a different portfolio, having made a pig's ear of the previous post.

Let's face it, this is a very niche subject.... ask the person in the street who is Welsh secretary and they probably won't know or care, even if they're in Wales


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 14:00:11
Good question.  None of them seem to last very long these days, but there are some like Gove who pops up with a different portfolio, having made a pig's ear of the previous post.

Let's face it, this is a very niche subject.... ask the person in the street who is Welsh secretary and they probably won't know or care, even if they're in Wales

Not Gove, he had a spell on the naughty step.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 13, 2020, 16:15:01
Nice to see we now have an environment minister who has consistently voted against measures to tackle climate change and to repeal environmental protection legislation. So much for Johnson's green promises. Like most of his promises, worthless.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, February 14, 2020, 08:29:44
always makes me smile when someone on the right reveals that they consider anyone with a shred of moral and social decency must be a 'leftie' like its some kind of insult

For that to be true it follows that those same right wingers must also believe that they themselves don't have a shred of moral and social decency which seems pejorative rather than realistic
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, February 14, 2020, 08:32:14

If the stories circulating are correct that Javid went because he refused to sack all his advisors and have them replaced by some hand picked by Cummings then one must assume that these are the terms under which his successor has taken the job, which basically suggests that Cummings has now taken control of the Treasury along with no.10 so we now have puppets in our key positions of governance.


I take your point that they must have sounded him out beforehand. 

However, this also puts Boris in a rather weak position in that he cannot risk losing another chancellor.  I don't know enough about Sunak to speculate how compliant he will turn out to be but ex Goldman Sachs/hedge fund manager/independently wealthy are not the traits I'd look for in a lap-dog and the Treasury has a solid track record of getting their chancellors to follow their line.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, February 14, 2020, 08:55:02
The Independent ran a piece saying that Rebecca Long Baillie broke the Labour election contest rules and could have been thrown out of the contest.  Instead the rules were changed by her Momentum allies who control the party and she was quietly cleared.

That's a story that I should instinctively warm to as it plays into my anti-Corbyn, anti-Momentum prejudices.

Not sure I do however.  It feels flimsy and it is surrounded by other unverifiable rumour stories such as  Labour MPs quitting en masse if she is elected.  This all neatly fits in with The Independent's Centrist/Soft Left instincts.

I used to regard The Independent and The Times as the last bastions of responsible, balanced UK journalism but I've come to the conclusion that I'm rather naïve which is somewhat depressing.
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, February 14, 2020, 09:05:42
The times have become nothing more than a tabloid of late. They used to hold high standards even if they were biased, but no more.

I don't trust any of them no matter where they might be on the left/right spectrum. Including, more recently, the BBC.

Bunch of cunts the lot of them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 14, 2020, 09:40:01
The Independent ran a piece saying that Rebecca Long Baillie broke the Labour election contest rules and could have been thrown out of the contest.  Instead the rules were changed by her Momentum allies who control the party and she was quietly cleared.

That's a story that I should instinctively warm to as it plays into my anti-Corbyn, anti-Momentum prejudices.

Not sure I do however.  It feels flimsy and it is surrounded by other unverifiable rumour stories such as  Labour MPs quitting en masse if she is elected.  This all neatly fits in with The Independent's Centrist/Soft Left instincts.

I used to regard The Independent and The Times as the last bastions of responsible, balanced UK journalism but I've come to the conclusion that I'm rather naïve which is somewhat depressing.
 

There have also been stories knocking about that the Party? were trying to get Starmer kicked off the ticket due to GDPR breaches?

In terms of print media, its a dying medium and I wouldn't take much notice of any of them. The only reason I tend to link to Indy pieces is they seem to attract less shouts of bias than thoise from the Times/Telegraph/Mail/Guardian!

Seem to get more sense out of the purely online sources now such as Huff Post/Buzzfeed and if you want more investigative and detailed By-Line Times.


I don't trust any of them no matter where they might be on the left/right spectrum. Including, more recently, the BBC.

Bunch of cunts the lot of them.

In terms of visual media, C4 don't seem to be too bad (at least asking difficult questions) and bizarrely Sky are sometimes OK, which is bloody odd considering its Murdoch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, February 14, 2020, 09:42:43
In terms of visual media, C4 don't seem to be too bad (at least asking difficult questions) and bizarrely Sky are sometimes OK, which is bloody odd considering its Murdoch.

Murdoch doesn't own Sky


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 14, 2020, 09:43:55
Murdoch doesn't own Sky

Well there you go then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, February 14, 2020, 09:44:01
I'm with you Horlock

Some seem to think asking questions is a bit Marxist.  

Bizarrely I have been coming to trust Sky News more than the emasculated Beeb (which tbf I still rate above Russia Today)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, February 14, 2020, 09:56:13
I see that our future Attorney General, Sue Ellen, was informing the public not long ago that "Parliament is bound by statute"

Even the typical Daily Mail reader cannot fail to have noticed that Bercow's labyrinthine rulings were not "statute" based.

Who better than a recently qualified lawyer for the job of emasculating the  independence of the judiciary?  Necessary because the Judiciary is biased against the Conservative Government despite being predominantly elderly, white, male and privately educated.

The Barbarians are well and truly at the Gates


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, February 14, 2020, 10:19:39
I see that our future Attorney General, Sue Ellen, was informing the public not long ago that "Parliament is bound by statute"

Even the typical Daily Mail reader cannot fail to have noticed that Bercow's labyrinthine rulings were not "statute" based.

Who better than a recently qualified lawyer for the job of emasculating the  independence of the judiciary?  Necessary because the Judiciary is biased against the Conservative Government despite being predominantly elderly, white, male and privately educated.

The Barbarians are well and truly at the Gates

I noticed that Buckland had to accept Cummings removing of one of his advisors to keep his job..... to which he happily agreed. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 14, 2020, 10:23:30
I see that our future Attorney General, Sue Ellen, was informing the public not long ago that "Parliament is bound by statute"

Even the typical Daily Mail reader cannot fail to have noticed that Bercow's labyrinthine rulings were not "statute" based.

Who better than a recently qualified lawyer for the job of emasculating the  independence of the judiciary?  Necessary because the Judiciary is biased against the Conservative Government despite being predominantly elderly, white, male and privately educated.

The Barbarians are well and truly at the Gates

Yep, in her eyes an independent judiciary and the law is just so bloody inconvenient....

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2020/01/suella-braverman-people-we-elect-must-take-back-control-from-people-we-dont-who-include-the-judges.html

But remember, its only an issue for the Labour Party. https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/board-of-deputies-rebuke-conservative-mp-suella-braverman-for-using-antisemitic-trope-1.482150


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 14, 2020, 10:25:23
In terms of print media, its a dying medium and I wouldn't take much notice of any of them. The only reason I tend to link to Indy pieces is they seem to attract less shouts of bias than thoise from the Times/Telegraph/Mail/Guardian!
Independent is an odd mix of serious journalism and pure clickbait since it went online only. The one I'm really disappointed by is the Telegraph which used to be kind of a Guardian of the right (it had a political viewpoint, but it didn't hide the bias in the news and was sufficiently committed to proper journalism that it would report stories properly so you could easily distinguish fact from interpretation), but these days it's like a shit Daily Mail. Been going that way since the Barclays took over but Brexit seemed to really hasten the process to the extent that it's now little more than shouty propaganda


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 14, 2020, 10:27:27
I noticed that Buckland had to accept Cummings removing of one of his advisors to keep his job..... to which he happily agreed. 
Let's be honest, Buckland would have happily agreed to sitting upside down with flowers poking out of his arse as a less decorative vase if it meant keeping his job. Amusingly the Spad he lost was his media advisor, so presumably we will now see a less effective communicator version of Buckland in the media. The mind boggles


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 14, 2020, 10:58:54
Apparently this isn't a parody account:

https://twitter.com/ColinBrowning14/status/1227906931450425344

:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, February 14, 2020, 11:00:15
I saw that earlier. Oh, how I lolled.

"You won, get used to it" springs to mind. I think we're going to be seeing a lot more stuff like this in the coming months/years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 14, 2020, 11:12:52
Apparently this isn't a parody account:

https://twitter.com/ColinBrowning14/status/1227906931450425344

:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

To be fair to the guy it isn't the Brexit he voted for, however 48% of the population were aware that it was the only Brexit available.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 14, 2020, 11:15:53
To be fair to the guy it isn't the Brexit he voted for, however 48% of the population were aware that it was the only Brexit available.
It very much is the Brexit he voted for, it's just not what he thought he voted for. There's a difference. Own it, bitch. (Him, not you, horlock)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 14, 2020, 11:18:06
(https://scontent.fman2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/86462084_10158134428799809_8608607280146939904_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ohc=s8OTjrPqwLcAX8ZddzU&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-2.fna&oh=ef26992fea12a1eef7aa8768e47d639b&oe=5ECD20DA)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, February 14, 2020, 11:18:33
The one I'm really disappointed by is the Telegraph which used to be kind of a Guardian of the right (it had a political viewpoint, but it didn't hide the bias in the news and was sufficiently committed to proper journalism that it would report stories properly so you could easily distinguish fact from interpretation), but these days it's like a shit Daily Mail. Been going that way since the Barclays took over but Brexit seemed to really hasten the process to the extent that it's now little more than shouty propaganda

Indeed.

I read The Telegraph, just before the election, for the first time in years and was staggered by how much it had changed.  It wasn't the bias or even the crudity as much as the pure hatred that stunned me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 14, 2020, 11:23:00
It very much is the Brexit he voted for, it's just not what he thought he voted for. There's a difference. Own it, bitch. (Him, not you, horlock)

The TBF bit was not altogether serious. As Mitch Ben says

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RFANVY5Zls


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, February 15, 2020, 07:12:30
Indeed.

I read The Telegraph, just before the election, for the first time in years and was staggered by how much it had changed.  It wasn't the bias or even the crudity as much as the pure hatred that stunned me.

Until quite recently, I used to make a point of reading the Telegraph - even though its political slant was to the right of mine - to get some balance.  But I've had to stop.  The level of bile/hatred towards those who disagree with the direction the government is taking is off the scale.  You see it in the pieces by journalists - particularly Janet Daley, Charles Moore and Sherelle Jacob's - and, inevitably, in the comments below.  I would be interested to know how many conservatives have had to give up on it recently.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 15, 2020, 12:02:45
Indeed.

I read The Telegraph, just before the election, for the first time in years and was staggered by how much it had changed.  It wasn't the bias or even the crudity as much as the pure hatred that stunned me.

Not exclusive to ‘far right’ papers I think you’ll find. Media finds its audience and the audience finds its media.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 15, 2020, 12:04:26
Then there were three.  :popcorn:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, February 15, 2020, 13:40:23
Not exclusive to ‘far right’ papers I think you’ll find. Media finds its audience and the audience finds its media.

That's true.  But I think the point being made here is that the Telegraph in particular has moved significantly to the right in a short space of time...very much like the government.

These things are very much open to interpretation/opinion, I know.  But (in my view) the government today would struggle to describe itself as 'centre right', as previous Conservative governments did.  It's plain 'right'.  Same goes for the DT.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, February 15, 2020, 14:25:37
That's true.  But I think the point being made here is that the Telegraph in particular has moved significantly to the right in a short space of time...very much like the government.
It's not even so much that, as how they've completely given up on objective reporting and analysis in favour of out and out shouty propaganda and some very nasty spleen in some of the comment pieces. They've gone from a sober conservative newspaper worthy of respect to a propaganda rag in just a few years and it's very sad. Although just reflects the poverty of public discourse in that time, but the Telegraph used to lead debate not pander to the lowest common denominator


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, February 16, 2020, 14:57:14
After forcing the Chancellor's resignation and replacement with a puppet, Dominic Cummings has now brought into Downing St one of those "misfits and weirdos"  he was advertising for, who has argued for compulsory contraception to "prevent the creation of a permanent underclass", argued for kids to be given psychoactive drugs as a method of control, "even if it does result in a dead kid once a year" and has argued in favour of eugenics - that's the state using compulsory sterilisation (or execution) to "breed out" those deemed to be mentally or physically inferior. It was quite popular in the 20s and 30s, especially in Germany. There's a word for these kinds of beliefs. And it's not "thinking outside of the box".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 17, 2020, 09:37:42
and has argued in favour of eugenics - that's the state using compulsory sterilisation (or execution) to "breed out" those deemed to be mentally or physically inferior. It was quite popular in the 20s and 30s, especially in Germany. There's a word for these kinds of beliefs. And it's not "thinking outside of the box".

There is an irony regarding the fact that those who seem to be in favour of eugenics are the same who would probably be most adversely affected by it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, February 17, 2020, 11:23:28
Although I would be generally be agin compulsory sterilisation and eugenics, it is worth noting that enlightened and liberal Sweden had variously applied this in practice for the best part of a century until 2012

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilisation_in_Sweden

In less extreme contexts, for example regarding adults with learning difficulties, there can be quite fine moral questions balancing personal freedom with a likelihood of problematic outcomes regarding any progeny.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Monday, February 17, 2020, 13:53:55
Earlier in this thread there were many comments regarding Cummings influence on B Johnson even suggesting he (Cummings) was effectively the unelected prime minister. My political beliefs are the polar opposite to most people on this forum but in this case I find I generally agree with the points raised.
However I believe the position is even worse as the leader of the opposition is probably Seamus Milne rather than J Corbyn.
Would be interesting to see the critics of the conservative situation applying the same criteria to Mr Milne/Labour and posting their thoughts.
My main concern is Mr Corbyn reading out a Seamus Milne critique at prime minister's questions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, February 17, 2020, 13:57:50
Earlier in this thread there were many comments regarding Cummings influence on B Johnson even suggesting he (Cummings) was effectively the unelected prime minister. My political beliefs are the polar opposite to most people on this forum but in this case I find I generally agree with the points raised.
However I believe the position is even worse as the leader of the opposition is probably Seamus Milne rather than J Corbyn.
Would be interesting to see the critics of the conservative situation applying the same criteria to Mr Milne/Labour and posting their thoughts.
My main concern is Mr Corbyn reading out a Seamus Milne critique at prime minister's questions.

I don't think that's the case at all. Corbyn is his own man and has carried his own beliefs through consistently.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 17, 2020, 14:28:55
Earlier in this thread there were many comments regarding Cummings influence on B Johnson even suggesting he (Cummings) was effectively the unelected prime minister. My political beliefs are the polar opposite to most people on this forum but in this case I find I generally agree with the points raised.
However I believe the position is even worse as the leader of the opposition is probably Seamus Milne rather than J Corbyn.
Would be interesting to see the critics of the conservative situation applying the same criteria to Mr Milne/Labour and posting their thoughts.
My main concern is Mr Corbyn reading out a Seamus Milne critique at prime minister's questions.
Seamus Milne is a cunt. Corbyn is hopeless. Happy?

And as someone who voted the fuckers into Downing St, how happy are you with them bringing a self-processed eugenicist and racist in as a paid adviser to the govt?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Monday, February 17, 2020, 15:17:04
I agree that J Corbyn has strong beliefs (misguided in my view) however even ex shadow cabinet members said their meetings consisted of Corbyn reading from prepared sheets and no variation/interruption was allowed.
I am disappointed that rather than give a summary of Seamus Milnes influence once again you use aggression and vile language to abuse someone who may not agree with your point of view.
What influence do you think, If any, does Milne have on Corbyn and his colleagues? Has he got beliefs that contributed to Labour's worst general election result in living memory? Should all use of SPADS be outlawed?
Look forward to your concise reasoned response.
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 17, 2020, 15:39:11
I agree that J Corbyn has strong beliefs (misguided in my view) however even ex shadow cabinet members said their meetings consisted of Corbyn reading from prepared sheets and no variation/interruption was allowed.
I am disappointed that rather than give a summary of Seamus Milnes influence once again you use aggression and vile language to abuse someone who may not agree with your point of view.
What influence do you think, If any, does Milne have on Corbyn and his colleagues? Has he got beliefs that contributed to Labour's worst general election result in living memory? Should all use of SPADS be outlawed?
Look forward to your concise reasoned response.
  
If you were talking to me, I was using "vile language" about Milne, not directed at you. I have no real views on Milne's influence on Corbyn because not being a Corbyn supporter I don't see it as especially relevant. I think Corbyn's hopeless, as I've made clear repeatedly throughout these pages. Why he's hopeless, whether in his own regard or because of Milne, is irrelevant. But he's going now anyway so even less relevant. The man who thinks it's OK to appoint racist eugenicists to a paid position advising the govt is very much still around and is running the country. I notice you ducked the question on that. So is that something you are OK with?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Monday, February 17, 2020, 15:50:45
I see GR doesn't post here too often. PaulD is sweaty and a naughty boy  :nod:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 17, 2020, 15:50:49
The man who thinks it's OK to appoint racist eugenicists to a paid position advising the govt is very much still around and is running the country. I notice you ducked the question on that. So is that something you are OK with?

One advantage of living in these times is you learn something new everyday.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1229310805189054464.html

TL/DR Cummings and Sabisky seem to like the idea but really have no idea what they are talking about.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 17, 2020, 15:51:50
I see GR doesn't post here too often. PaulD is sweaty and a naughty boy  :nod:
Sweaty? Nah, I'm like Prince Andrew


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 17, 2020, 15:52:04
I see GR doesn't post here too often. PaulD is sweaty and a naughty boy  :nod:

How can you tell he is dsweaty, perhaps its something that can be bred out of him through eugenics


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 17, 2020, 15:55:11
One advantage of living in these times is you learn something new everyday.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1229310805189054464.htmlAndrew Sabisky

TL/DR Cummings and Sabisky seem to like the idea but really have no idea what they are talking about.
Not nearly as clever as they think they are, but just clever enough to be really dangerous.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 17, 2020, 15:55:50
Not nearly as clever as they think they are, but just clever enough to be really dangerous.


Its just another dog whistle.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 17, 2020, 15:59:54
This is just plain odd, when you have shown yourself willing to lie at every opportunity the refusal to put this to bed is just weird!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-andrew-sabisky-eugenics-contraception-dominic-cummings-downing-street-a9339296.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Monday, February 17, 2020, 16:07:37
Ha, sweary. My phone is a pain in the arris


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Monday, February 17, 2020, 16:09:20
I'm Gosport Rob and I'll post when I want to....... quality not quantity!
In my first post I reluctantly agreed that the critism of Cummings was justified.
The point I was trying to make was Milne has a similar influence on Corbyn.
I do not support racism in any form including anti semetism.
I had hoped my point about special advisors would tweak a nerve.
I confess I was at one time a labour supporter.
I confess I was at one time a Liberal party supporter.
I confess I am truly fucked up.
I don't see any evidence that Stalinism, Leninism or Communism has provided wealth for many ordinary people.
I don't think fascism is the answer although a lot of German and French voters seem to think it is!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 17, 2020, 16:27:24
I'm Gosport Rob and I'll post when I want to....... quality not quantity!
In my first post I reluctantly agreed that the critism of Cummings was justified.
The point I was trying to make was Milne has a similar influence on Corbyn.
I do not support racism in any form including anti semetism.
I had hoped my point about special advisors would tweak a nerve.
I confess I was at one time a labour supporter.
I confess I was at one time a Liberal party supporter.
I confess I am truly fucked up.
I don't see any evidence that Stalinism, Leninism or Communism has provided wealth for many ordinary people.
I don't think fascism is the answer although a lot of German and French voters seem to think it is!
All of which is fascinating. But you still haven't answered whether you are happy with the govt you voted for using taxpayers' money to appoint a self-confessed eugenicist and racist as a paid advisor? And Johnson's refusal to comment on whether he shares these views? Surely that should be a pretty straightforward question for any normal decent person to answer (the question posed of Johnson, I mean)?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 17, 2020, 16:27:59
Ha, sweary. My phone is a pain in the arris
Probably a typo due to your sweary fingers :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, February 17, 2020, 16:36:08
All of which is fascinating. But you still haven't answered whether you are happy with the govt you voted for using taxpayers' money to appoint a self-confessed eugenicist and racist as a paid advisor? And Johnson's refusal to comment on whether he shares these views? Surely that should be a pretty straightforward question for any normal decent person to answer (the question posed of Johnson, I mean)?

I think this line probably answers your question.

"I confess I am truly fucked up."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 17, 2020, 17:18:07
This makes quite an interesting read....

https://twitter.com/ChristabelCoops/status/1229432074978746368


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Monday, February 17, 2020, 17:37:09
Ok one last time on this subject:-

What part of "I do not support racism of any kind" not answer your repeated question about Cummings/Boris?

Why did you not pick up on my mention of anti semetism?

Why did you not pick up on my "I agree with the critism of Cummings?

In my view it's not possible to live this life with one tunnel vision approach to politics. Every point of view will have strengths and weaknesses but the inability to accept when another viewpoint has merit leads to a shallow argument.

Is it acceptable to argue that every ill in this world leads directly to America (I know many of them do) without criticising leaders of left wing oligarchies?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 17, 2020, 17:58:51
Ok one last time on this subject:-

What part of "I do not support racism of any kind" not answer your repeated question about Cummings/Boris?
Good, so you think they're in the wrong and regret voting them into power. Great.

Why did you not pick up on my mention of anti semetism?
Because you didn't make any mention of anti-semitism. But for the record, I've repeatedly condemned Corbyn's failure to tackle it decisively and been attacked by Corbynites for doing so. Look back through the thread.

Is it acceptable to argue that every ill in this world leads directly to America (I know many of them do) without criticising leaders of left wing oligarchies?
Nobody was talking about America. Irrelevant.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, February 17, 2020, 22:15:15
Sabisky has gone


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 08:55:53
Sabisky has gone

I wonder whether the timing of his departure suggests that it had more to do with the stories in the media today (which were coming out yesterday evening) rather than the eugenics things, for which he seemed to retain full governmental support?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 09:10:51
I wonder whether the timing of his departure suggests that it had more to do with the stories in the media today (which were coming out yesterday evening) rather than the eugenics things, for which he seemed to retain full governmental support?
Given Cummings and Johnson refused to condemn the eugenicist stuff and Johnson's spokesman repeatedly refused to say whether he agreed with Sabisky's assertion that black people are less intelligent than white people, it would seem it's down to the media furore than any fundamental disagreement with the racist eugenicist views. Which is quite astonishing and very very worrying. #BritishTrump


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 09:49:03
Given Cummings and Johnson refused to condemn the eugenicist stuff and Johnson's spokesman repeatedly refused to say whether he agreed with Sabisky's assertion that black people are less intelligent than white people, it would seem it's down to the media furore than any fundamental disagreement with the racist eugenicist views. Which is quite astonishing and very very worrying. #BritishTrump

Not sure why the media needed to ask the questioms anyway, a quick google serch would have sufficed.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/boris-says-sorry-over-blacks-have-lower-iqs-article-in-the-spectator-6630340.html

I suspect this is what finally nudged him as he resigned almost immediately after the first version of this was published online.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18242099.andrew-sabisky-made-vile-claims-women-sex-reddit/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 09:59:30
In case there was any doubt about who the PM is... https://twitter.com/grahamlithgow/status/1229348768451002369


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 10:23:05
When asked in a debate whether she would vote to abolish the monarchy in a hypothetical referendum, Lisa Nandy says yes. However, all candidates, including Nandy, said it was not a priority for them.

The Press: OMG. LABOUR WANT TO ABOLISH THE MONARCHY!!!!
The public: OMG. LABOUR HATE BRITAIN.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 10:30:07
The whole Sabisky saga also begs the question of how many more racist wierdos with incest fantasies Cummings has employed in No 10?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 10:37:21
This isn't mine, its nicked off Twitter but makes a pertinent point...

80 seat majority. What could go wrong?

3 months later, we're planning to destroy the BBC*, sack judges we don't like, build impossible bridges, spend £100bn on a slightly faster train ticket, bring back eugenics, and debating if black people are mentally inferior.

2 months.


*BTW this is absolute bollocks, The BBC's present settlement lasts until 2027, Johnson's government only until December 2024. Unless he is going to try to bind any successor government (good luck), this is just another classic Dom, a good tough sound bite but slack on detail.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 10:42:50
At least someone has said something... https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1229685390900109312

'I think we should prevent racists from entering no. 10...' Erm...do you want to tell him or should I?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 15:52:25
Seems a bit harsh to prevent the Labour party from government/number 10
 (I assume anti semetism counts as racist.)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 16:11:35
Seems a bit harsh to prevent the Labour party from government/number 10
 (I assume anti semetism counts as racist.)

Very good, as the only chance Labour has of entering no.10 is with a complete change in personnel its a rather peculiar point to make, what's that over there you say?

On that basis if its a race to the bottom that the Tories are winning as they now seem to be getting close to the box set.

Setting aside their well documented Islamophobia problem, investigation promised and quietly shelved, highest ranking Muslim in cabinet unceremoniously got rid of. Their longstanding problem with black people from the leader down.

We now have them, having posited themselves as allies of the Jewish community to win the election, now they're in government hiring eugenicists - a pseudoscience used to dehumanise Jews during the Holocaust.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 09:31:42
Dave, last night on the Brits was awesome. Glad it's got people talking again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 10:21:17
I preferred him with Chas.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 11:25:41
(https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/87038982_3065147566877628_6634096233038217216_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_ohc=96tmVezWwH8AX9M39mP&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-1.fna&oh=7a39eb915a4923085eba227ccaa86b15&oe=5EC8767A)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 11:50:17
I preferred him with Chas.
:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 16:32:08
(https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/87038982_3065147566877628_6634096233038217216_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_ohc=96tmVezWwH8AX9M39mP&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-1.fna&oh=7a39eb915a4923085eba227ccaa86b15&oe=5EC8767A)
She's also now said that "only the brightest and the best" would get into Britain under the new skin colour- points-based immigration system. So presumably the half of the cabinet she's not locking up she'll be deporting?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 16:51:28
She's also now said that "only the brightest and the best" would get into Britain under the new skin colour- points-based immigration system. So presumably the half of the cabinet she's not locking up she'll be deporting?

TBH if the background to this is an aspiration based upon skin colour they are going to get a god awful shock. Many of the countries in Asia with much bigger markets than us (and thus the upper hand in any trade talks, India being the most outspoken so far) have been saying that if we want a trade deal they want visa requirements for their citizens to work in the UK to be seriously relaxed. Someone is going to have to do the low paid jobs that brits have not wanted to take previously.

Its also interesting to note that the new rules suggest anyone earning less than £25.6k is an unskilled worker.

NHS starting salaries:

Nurse £24.2k
Paramedic 24.2k
Midwife £24.2k
Radiographer £24.2k
Care assistant £17.6k
Physiotherapist £24.2k
Occupational therapist £24.2k

One stat doing the rounds up here is that there are c.20,000 non-UK staff working in 'unskilled roles' in the Lakes but only 200 people unemployed locally.

Doesn't take a genius to work out the devastating impact this will have on Britain's 2nd biggest tourist destination and the economy here in Cumbria.

Once again they really haven't though this through.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 18:03:49
One of the sectors that will be hardest hit is the social care sector. Patel has suggested companies in that sector will have to pay more to recruit British workers. Sounds great, but will the govt then match that by spending more on an already massively underfunded care sector? Or will the elderly and disabled in care be the ones who pay the price (literally and metaphorically) for a govt that has incoherent policies? Can't have it all ways


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 20, 2020, 10:24:36
I would imagine that footballl is going to be hit hard if they expect every new signing to be fluent in English before they are allowed in to sign?,


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, February 21, 2020, 17:37:16
Do I have this right?

A certain number of unskilled jobs will need to be filled because unskilled foreign workers are not going to be allowed in to take them.

However, the government plans to fill those unskilled vacancies by training up the unemployed to give them the skills required to fill those unskilled positions.

Have I missed something?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, February 21, 2020, 17:56:37
There is a specific classification on education levels that gives you skilled or unskilled.  Currently skilled requires a degree but they are dropping it to A Level, so I guess GCSE passes still leaves you in the unskilled bracket.  Therefore there must be a wide range of jobs at that level and below.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, February 21, 2020, 18:28:43
Do I have this right?

A certain number of unskilled jobs will need to be filled because unskilled foreign workers are not going to be allowed in to take them.

However, the government plans to fill those unskilled vacancies by training up the unemployed to give them the skills required to fill those unskilled positions.

Have I missed something?

It's estimated that there are 8 million people who don't work.... that's the disabled, ill, pensioners, students, illegal immigrants and asylum seekers etc.   The idea is to get them into work... not so much training for the job as training for the skills of working... like getting out of bed in the morning etc.

The Tories have been working on the disabled and sick for a few years now with their sanctions regimes and work fitness assessments. Pensioners not so much straight away but the idea is to raise the pension age to 75, phased in so that those currently in their 30's and 40's will have to work rather than receive a pension, unless sorted privately.

Students always used to work in the holidays, as did footballers during the close season.... when I was a student, the thing was Post Office at Christmas, also there were factories who'd always take you... or it could be as I once did grape picking in the S of France or a kibbutz if adventurous.  Wise's cake factory in Swindon was always handy, when in Pompey it was Smith's crisps and Shiphams fish paste factory. Soon it will carrot picking in Lincs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, February 23, 2020, 16:31:33
So according to today's Times (two separate pieces, both written by openly Tory journalists), civil servants have been ordered to limit briefing papers to Johnson to no more than 2 sides of A4 because he can't concentrate on anything longer. And MI5 are limiting the intelligence passed to Priti Patel because they consider her to be a security risk. #TrumpBritain


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, February 23, 2020, 16:41:43
Meanwhile on the Far Right, Britain First leader Paul Golding has just been stopped at Heathrow by anti-terror police returning from a trip to the Russian parliament, while Yaxley Lennon (aka "Tommy Robinson") is over there presenting his own TV show. Both following in a long line of right-wing figures to have received aid, support and hard cash from the Russian gangster state. What can it possibly be that the Russians find so endearing about all these right wing figures in their long campaign to undermine Western democracies?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Monday, February 24, 2020, 06:36:11
So according to today's Times (two separate pieces, both written by openly Tory journalists), civil servants have been ordered to limit briefing papers to Johnson to no more than 2 sides of A4 because he can't concentrate on anything longer. And MI5 are limiting the intelligence passed to Priti Patel because they consider her to be a security risk. #TrumpBritain

Concerning the briefings, the description is an "executive summary". Commonly used over many decades, but if it suits your conspiracy theory...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, February 24, 2020, 07:21:52
It's estimated that there are 8 million people who don't work.... that's the disabled, ill, pensioners, students, illegal immigrants and asylum seekers etc.   The idea is to get them into work... not so much training for the job as training for the skills of working... like getting out of bed in the morning etc.
I’d suggest the majority of those 8 million are lazy arsed Brits. Get those into work and the money saved can go to increase the benefits of those that actually need them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 24, 2020, 09:02:00
Concerning the briefings, the description is an "executive summary". Commonly used over many decades, but if it suits your conspiracy theory...
There's summaries and summaries, other ministers, and previous PMs, were capable of consuming more in-depth briefings than Johnson, according to the civil servants leaking in the piece. It's hardly a conspiracy theory, or indeed even news come to that, that Johnson is massively lazy with a very low attention threshold. He was widely derided for it as Mayor of London, and was described as the laziest Foreign Secretary the FO had ever known when he held that office.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 24, 2020, 09:06:44
I’d suggest the majority of those 8 million are lazy arsed Brits. Get those into work and the money saved can go to increase the benefits of those that actually need them.
The government state that unemployment currently stands at 3.8%, around 1.5m. Where are the other 6.5m "lazy arsed" Brits then?

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/employmentintheuk/february2020


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, February 24, 2020, 09:32:13
maths


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Monday, February 24, 2020, 09:49:53
I’d suggest the majority of those 8 million are lazy arsed Brits. Get those into work and the money saved can go to increase the benefits of those that actually need them.

You've gone a bit Daily Mail there Audrey


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 24, 2020, 09:55:19
The government state that unemployment currently stands at 3.8%, around 1.5m. Where are the other 6.5m "lazy arsed" Brits then?

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/employmentintheuk/february2020

But its common knowledge that the stated unemployment figure is complete nonsense as one only has to work an hour a week to be considered 'in employment'.

I understand the majority of the 8m are students, followed by those caring for family members.

Just another sound bite for the groomed to grasp. 



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 24, 2020, 10:06:29
But its common knowledge that the stated unemployment figure is complete nonsense as one only has to work an hour a week to be considered 'in employment'.

I understand the majority of the 8m are students, followed by those caring for family members.

Just another sound bite for the groomed to grasp.  



As pointed out in the earlier post a lot of the 8 mill will be pensioners, there are already groups like the Waspi women, who are now having to work rather than retire as at one time they thought they would.... I know plenty who are just in the bracket of needing to wait a bit longer for their state pension so need to carry on working, as the age increases.  The Tory plan is to increase it gradually to 75.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 24, 2020, 10:07:56
Well there's around 12m pensioners, get those lazy bastards working and they won't need care homes will they? They'll just drop dead. Which seems to be the govt approach to sickness benefit anyway so makes sense to extend it to the elderly as well as the sick


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, February 24, 2020, 10:13:16
Well there's around 12m pensioners, get those lazy bastards working and they won't need care homes will they? They'll just drop dead. Which seems to be the govt approach to sickness benefit anyway so makes sense to extend it to the elderly as well as the sick

It's interesting that the average age of life expectancy has started to drop, for the first time in years....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 24, 2020, 10:18:52
Well there's around 12m pensioners, get those lazy bastards working and they won't need care homes will they? They'll just drop dead. Which seems to be the govt approach to sickness benefit anyway so makes sense to extend it to the elderly as well as the sick

Get them working in the care homes, kill two birds with one stone (So to speak).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 24, 2020, 10:36:29
It's interesting that the average age of life expectancy has started to drop, for the first time in years....
That's all those pensioners taking up windsurfing and the like that causes that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 24, 2020, 10:46:43
I see the "ordinary member of the public" who's rant on immigration the BBC chose to spaff all over Twitter as part of their continuing project to turn Question Time into the political answer to the Jeremy Kyle show actually turns out to be a former National Front candidate and Britain First activist. Badly lost their way with that programme


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, February 24, 2020, 11:18:39
I read somewhere that the person selecting the audience also has far-right connections. I'm not sure how true that is, though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Richie Wellen-Dowd on Monday, February 24, 2020, 11:24:32
Get them working in the care homes, kill two birds with one stone (So to speak).

And we could get rid of loads of bloody immigrants. Coming over here, looking after our old people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 24, 2020, 11:26:52
I read somewhere that the person selecting the audience also has far-right connections. I'm not sure how true that is, though.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ourbeeb/is-question-time-s-audience-producer-really-fascist/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, February 24, 2020, 11:53:27
I see the "ordinary member of the public" who's rant on immigration the BBC chose to spaff all over Twitter as part of their continuing project to turn Question Time into the political answer to the Jeremy Kyle show actually turns out to be a former National Front candidate and Britain First activist. Badly lost their way with that programme

Don't normally watch Question Time any more, but did catch this the other evening.  Without even knowing her background at that point, I was really surprised that she was afforded the opportunity to make her speech.  It went on for ages...and she didn't even pretend to ask a question (which is what she should have been doing).  As you say, really seems to have lost its way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 24, 2020, 12:16:39
Don't normally watch Question Time any more, but did catch this the other evening.  Without even knowing her background at that point, I was really surprised that she was afforded the opportunity to make her speech.  It went on for ages...and she didn't even pretend to ask a question (which is what she should have been doing).  As you say, really seems to have lost its way.
I expect QT to be unilluminating toxic drivel these days. It was the fact that they then also chose to put the rant out on Twitter, without any context, and without the rebuttals from members of the panel as an "advert" for BBC QT. Thereby uncritically rebroadcasting and amplifying an unrepentant Nazi without any context. Public service broadcasting? The BBC really aren't doing themselves any favours in terms of alienating their natural allies in defending them against the forthcoming Cummings/Johnson assault are they?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Monday, February 24, 2020, 16:37:25
I was just about to post similar but you beat me to it Paul - it’s utterly incredible that Question Time had the cheek to post that video, they have no right to upload clips from their most recent broadcast.

Whatever next, STFC deciding to put up match highlights for all to see?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, February 24, 2020, 16:52:18
I was just about to post similar but you beat me to it Paul - it’s utterly incredible that Question Time had the cheek to post that video, they have no right to upload clips from their most recent broadcast.

Whatever next, STFC deciding to put up match highlights for all to see?
Yes because the two examples are directly comparable aren't they? :troll:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 12:26:27
In light of all the fuss about Corbyn saying something and it getting picked up by amateur Tory lip readers to suggest something else (no idea what he actually said), can we be sure that Patel said 'working' as I can think of at least one more plausible excuse for his prolonged absence?

Modified as image wasn't available and I am a technology dunce.

Tweet from Emily Ashton (political corres at Buzzfeed).


Boris Johnson extends condolences to families of flood victims at start of PMQs - Labour MPs shout "Where were you?" Priti Patel, sitting next to PM, mouths: "Working."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 12:43:54
In light of all the fuss about Corbyn saying something and it getting picked up by amateur Tory lip readers to suggest something else (no idea what he actually said), can we be sure that Patel said 'working' as I can think of at least one more plausible excuse for his prolonged absence?

(https://www.national-preservation.com/attachments/upload_2020-2-26_12-34-52-png.49777/)
Image dooesn't work unless you're logged into national preservation site horlock. Which I'd guess not many on here will be :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 12:56:13
Image dooesn't work unless you're logged into national preservation site horlock. Which I'd guess not many on here will be :)

Now modified, see above! Although he could have been in Woking, possibly at Pizza Express?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 13:11:48
31 of the last 50 posts on this thread have been entered by two users.

Is this a comment on its pointless nature which would suggest a moderator should delete it asap?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 13:18:59
Now modified, see above! Although he could have been in Woking, possibly at Pizza Express?
Gossip in Westminster is that he has been keeping out of sight because he was sporting a black eye from his girlfriend who'd found out he'd been at it again behind her back while she was pregnant. She can't have been surprised, he ditched his wife for her while she was fighting off cancer. She knows he's a shit of the highest order.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 13:19:46
31 of the last 50 posts on this thread have been entered by two users.

Is this a comment on its pointless nature which would suggest a moderator should delete it asap?
The fact you bothered to count is a comment on you having way too much time on your hands.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 13:41:31
31 of the last 50 posts on this thread have been entered by two users.

Is this a comment on its pointless nature which would suggest a moderator should delete it asap?

Why, are people only allowed to talk about things you approve of, bit snowflakey that?

Gossip in Westminster is that he has been keeping out of sight because he was sporting a black eye from his girlfriend who'd found out he'd been at it again behind her back while she was pregnant. She can't have been surprised, he ditched his wife for her while she was fighting off cancer. She knows he's a shit of the highest order.

Wasn't that when he came back from Mustique, or has he been a nawty boi again?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 13:45:07
31 of the last 50 posts on this thread have been entered by two users.

Is this a comment on its pointless nature which would suggest a moderator should delete it asap?

Let me add to you poster count then.

If this post is representative of your political thinking, I can see why you might have problems with other people’s views on this thread.

Ignoring users or leaving threads unopened might be preferable alternatives to seeking to close the discussion to everyone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 14:09:17
31 of the last 50 posts on this thread have been entered by two users.

Is this a comment on its pointless nature which would suggest a moderator should delete it asap?

Your last 17 posts have all been in this thread, how about I delete you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 14:11:07
31 of the last 50 posts on this thread have been entered by two users.

Is this a comment on its pointless nature which would suggest a moderator should delete it asap?

Just for fun I counted a few more. 33 of your last 50 posts are in this thread.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 14:12:12
And 60 of your 78 posts are in this thread.

POT, meet KETTLE.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 14:12:50
Your last 17 posts have all been in this thread, how about I delete you?

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: Petard hoisted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 14:40:40
This fella makes me pine for the return of Sir Red Ken


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 14:54:35
This fella makes me pine for the return of Sir Red Ken

Interestingly considering the views expressed previously elsewhere about the Football Ramble, Luke Moore is from Gosport, perhaps its the water down there, of the sailors?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 14:58:03
This fella makes me pine for the return of Sir Red Ken

I wonder what happened to him.

You'd think he would be itching to come on here and rub peoples' noses in it after the election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 15:29:41
I wonder what happened to him.

You'd think he would be itching to come on here and rub peoples' noses in it after the election.

That's what I thought too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 15:41:08
I wonder what happened to him.

You'd think he would be itching to come on here and rub peoples' noses in it after the election.
Didn't he make a brief appearance to gloat after "Brexit Day" along with the rest of the right-wing nutjobs?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 15:50:33
It's a good job he didn't order the dismantling of the US Federal epidemic management system in 2018 or they might have something to worry about. Although apparently coronavirus is just a Chinese/left-wing/whoever else is the enemy du jour conspiracy to undermine his re-election bid anyway.

I don't think we are in any position to gloat, we have Hatt Mancock on the job!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 16:34:38
So despite all the promises to farmers that they wouldn't lose out when EU subsidies stopped, DEFRA have now confirmed farm payments will be cut by 25% from next year.

https://twitter.com/FarmersWeekly/status/1232279578292387841

So farmers can join the long list of "I voted for Brexit and now my business is fucked because I was lied to". "Fuck business" wasn't just a throwaway line was it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 16:51:24
soapy tit wank


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 16:55:55
Project fear


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 16:57:35
So despite all the promises to farmers that they wouldn't lose out when EU subsidies stopped, DEFRA have now confirmed farm payments will be cut by 25% from next year.

https://twitter.com/FarmersWeekly/status/1232279578292387841

So farmers can join the long list of "I voted for Brexit and now my business is fucked because I was lied to". "Fuck business" wasn't just a throwaway line was it?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERovQWZX0AIJQoZ?format=jpg&name=medium)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 17:56:19
"The Saj" admits to  a 50 year high tax burden and record national debt under the Tories   :eek:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1232671111046979585

"But Corbyn".  Fair point - but at least we might have enjoyed some half decent services in exchange for such a mess.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 27, 2020, 12:46:04
The lines between truth and satire are getting increasingly blurred.

https://newsthump.com/2020/02/27/breaking-my-promises-on-the-previous-eu-deal-is-best-way-to-start-negotiations-for-future-deal-insists-idiot/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 27, 2020, 12:53:58
The lines between truth and satire are getting increasingly blurred.

https://newsthump.com/2020/02/27/breaking-my-promises-on-the-previous-eu-deal-is-best-way-to-start-negotiations-for-future-deal-insists-idiot/
TBF that could actually be the news report. The whole premise on which this govt was elected to "get Brexit done" is completely undermined by this. They claim to have a mandate on the basis of the "oven-ready deal" that Johnson cobbled together last autumn and then campaigned on in December. If they're now going to unpick that deal, then it wasn't "oven-ready", they haven't "got Brexit done" and they don't have a mandate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 27, 2020, 15:23:30
What a shocker.... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...t-level-brexit-ons-figures-work-a9362531.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, February 27, 2020, 15:50:14
What a shocker.... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...t-level-brexit-ons-figures-work-a9362531.html

So the same number of immigrants to the UK, but a higher proportion of them have brown faces?  I'm not sure that this is going to go down particularly well with the demographic that voted for Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, February 27, 2020, 16:11:06
So the same number of immigrants to the UK, but a higher proportion of them have brown faces?  I'm not sure that this is going to go down particularly well with the demographic that voted for Brexit.

Farage did tell them this is how it works...  further I pointed out a while back that many from the sub continent diaspora, voted for Brexit to facilitate such an outcome.  It was explained in the discussion about why the likes of LL were such rabid Brixiteers, when they could offer no seemingly good reason for it....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, February 27, 2020, 16:11:39
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51658693

I expect Prime Minister Boris Johnson will be absolutely furious that those pesky, unelected, politically-motivated judges have over-turned the parliamentary decision to proceed with a third runway at Heathrow.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 28, 2020, 11:44:10
Week in review from politics.co.uk, cheery innit

They're all over the place. It's like a moral lesson in what happens if you're foolish enough to hand the keys to the country to a blithering clown. And the damage he'll do will stay with us for decades.

We barely see Boris Johnson. He doesn't really deign to emerge anymore. It's all very funny, apparently, the bumbling jester act. Until there's floods, or a coronavirus. And then it's not so funny anymore.

But even behind the scenes, you can sense Johnson's responsibility for what is happening. It's in that tell-tale sign of laziness and ineptitude with which government operations are conducted.

Yesterday the No.10 confirmed it was pulling out of the unified patent system. This new arrangement, which operates half-in and half-out of the EU, aims to replace the disparate national patent arrangements in Europe with a streamlined single-issue patent and associated court functions.

With Britain on board, the new system would have covered 400 million consumers, including four G8 economies, with a GDP close to that of the US. Many experts believed it would make Europe a major patent jurisdiction, possibly overtaking the US.
Even David Cameron, an afterthought of a prime minister who nevertheless appears an intellectual titan next to what we have now, recognised the opportunities. He made sure British judges were involved in developing the court's procedure. He fought to establish the pharmaceutical and life science division of the court in London - part of a plan to turn the UK, which at the time had the European Medicines Agency as well as the Francis Crick Institute and the Wellcome trust, into a global life sciences hub.

Theresa May knew it made sense to stick to this system even after Brexit. Johnson himself ratified it in 2018. But now we are pulling out. Why? Because the patent court will refer back to the European Court of Justice on matters of EU law.
This is such a tiny thing, such an inconsequential detail, as to be beyond comprehension. The European Court of Justice wouldn't decide cases. It would simply be asked to make rulings on matters of EU law. But even that apparently is too much. 'That's not Brexit', or whatever word it is we're supposed to use for Brexit now that MPs have been told never to utter it.
"Participating in a court that applies EU law and bound by the European Court of Justice is inconsistent with our aims of becoming an independent self-governing nation," the PM's office told the website IAM yesterday. They had to be approached to find out. There was no official statement.

Britain loses and Europe loses. And there's really no reason for it. It's doubtful that a single individual in this country voted to leave in 2016 on the basis of EU law on patents.

It doesn't make the headlines, because it is an act of vandalism against something which would exist, rather than something which already does. But this is what it looks like when a country dismantles its own future.

Meanwhile, Michael Gove was in the Commons, delivering a standard-issue machine gun round of untruth. "We will respect the withdrawal agreement, implement the Northern Ireland protocol," he said, mentioning a document which makes it clear there will be a customs border between Britain and Northern Ireland. And then: "There will be no border down the Irish Sea".

It is a lie. That border will exist as point of fact due to the contents of the agreement. And it will take place in a heightened way due to country-of-origin checks if there is a trade deal with the EU.

What he could confirm is that the UK is going to have to employ up to 50,000 people for customs checks. It is extraordinary. We are eradicating growth where we could have been world leaders, only to replace it with growth in an area dedicated to demolishing our own trading networks. As the FT calculated, that's "four times more people to fill in customs forms than the 12,000 people working as fishermen in the UK - the industry that is supposedly one of the big beneficiaries of Brexit". Actual madness, on an industrial scale.

This government, which seemingly has no interest in the job and no understanding of how to do it, is then going to negotiate the two most important trade deals in this country's history. And it is going to negotiate them at the same time.
The UK published its mandate for the EU talks this week. In it, Johnson rejected the commitment to level-playing field requirements which he signed in his future relationship deal with the EU, just as he is undermining the commitments he made in the Northern Ireland protocol. He then asked the EU to trust him that those commitments were not required. It is like a perfectly illogical argument, one which refutes itself in the process of being uttered.

At the same time he is going to pursue an American trade deal, with the most aggressive nationalist president that country has had in its history. The mandate for that deal is expected on Monday. Liz Truss, the woman who whipped herself up into imbecile outrage over the fact Britain imports cheese, will be in charge there.

That's two simultaneous talks in which Britain is by far the junior partner, against seasoned negotiators, operating under an impossible time frame, with a ministerial team selected for cattle-like obedience, a leadership strategy based on deception, and no basic grounding in empirical reality or the consequences of our actions.

The sheer scale of the inadequacy and irresponsibility is mind-boggling. A clown-car, tottering down a high speed motorway, surrounded by heavy-duty vehicles travelling at speed. And we are going to have to live with the outcome of these decisions for years.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 28, 2020, 12:43:20
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51658693

I expect Prime Minister Boris Johnson will be absolutely furious that those pesky, unelected, politically-motivated judges have over-turned the parliamentary decision to proceed with a third runway at Heathrow.

I assume you are being sarcastic here....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, February 28, 2020, 13:02:00
Farage did tell them this is how it works...  further I pointed out a while back that many from the sub continent diaspora, voted for Brexit to facilitate such an outcome.  It was explained in the discussion about why the likes of LL were such rabid Brixiteers, when they could offer no seemingly good reason for it....

Still, you have to love the final paragraph where taking back control is floated.  The entire article is written from the context of increasing migration from outside the EU, an area of immigration we have retained complete control over during our entire stay in the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, February 28, 2020, 13:16:46
I doubt that the PM is quietly heaving a sigh of relief somewhere that the confrontation with a bulldozer has been avoided, for the time being at least.

A thick skin and sloping shoulders will get him through.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 28, 2020, 15:45:57
So the govt intend to scrap our participation in the European Arrest Warrant post Brexit, despite wails of alarm from police and security services. Wonder why the party of law and order wants to allow the UK to become a haven for those evading justice in Europe? Couldn't be related to Johnson's fondness for donations from Russian oligarchs could it?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/27/lubov-chernukhin-tories-tennis-record-donor-uk-russia

Where's that Russia Report btw?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 14:16:04
So Priti Patel is a horrible cunt.

Who knew?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 14:42:18
So Priti Patel is a horrible cunt.

Who knew?
tbf the civil servant whinging about her is the architect of May's "hostile environment" and the Windrush scandal. So more of a cunt-off really. Deserves no sympathy, I'll save my sorrow for his victims.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 17:35:17
So Shagger Johnson is going to be a daddy again.  That's so sweet!  Also provides him with cover for doing something dastardly & underhand in about 6 months from now without the papers taking any notice.

How many kids is that now?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 17:43:04
So Shagger Johnson is going to be a daddy again.  That's so sweet!  Also provides him with cover for doing something dastardly & underhand in about 6 months from now without the papers taking any notice.

How many kids is that now?

Does it matter how many kids he has?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 17:52:13
Does it matter how many kids he has?

He's a snake.  And a charlatan, and a misogynist.  Most of us don't need to keep details like this to ourselves.

Short answer to your question is 'no', fair enough.  But it doesn't inspire confidence in a man who's well known to have a loose relationship with the truth.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 18:02:36
So Shagger Johnson is going to be a daddy again.  That's so sweet!  Also provides him with cover for doing something dastardly & underhand in about 6 months from now without the papers taking any notice.

How many kids is that now?

Yay!

More Johnsons, just what we need.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 18:04:39
He's a snake.  And a charlatan, and a misogynist.  Most of us don't need to keep details like this to ourselves.

Short answer to your question is 'no', fair enough.  But it doesn't inspire confidence in a man who's well known to have a loose relationship with the truth.

Two different things then. Get grip mate FFS.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 18:18:33
 :D  Just can't stand the man.  Sorry.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 18:38:42
:D  Just can't stand the man.  Sorry.

You don’t know him, neither do I. You only get wound up by the media you read and watch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 18:48:32
That's a bit odd.  I think you're allowed to have opinions about people who fall outside your own personal circle of friends.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 18:49:31
I'm not wild about Piers Morgan either.  He's a wanker too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 19:14:58
You don’t know him, neither do I. You only get wound up by the media you read and watch.
Seem to remember you getting quite hot under the collar about Jeremy Corbyn. And Diane Abbott. I'm going to go out on a limb and hazard a guess you don't know either of them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 19:15:29
You don’t know him, neither do I. You only get wound up by the media you read and watch.

What about you and Corbyn then Mr Pot?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 19:35:04
Meanwhile, back on the issue of Johnson's laziness and incompetence, I see one of the victims of his laziness at the Foreign Office, Nazanine Zaghari-Ratcliffe, still languishing in an Iranian jail, is now believed to have coronavirus. Given she has been in poor health for a while, her outlook has got bleaker still. And the lazy bastard hasn't lifted a finger to help her. Complete disgrace of a man.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 19:38:32
What about you and Corbyn then Mr Pot?

Who rattled your cage tangerine face?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 19:43:49
Fuck me didn’t take the momentum mob long to wake up did it. Five years is going to drag for some of you. Still about time the civil service got shaken up and in Boris’ favour I doubt us tax payers will be paying benefits to keep any of his brood.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 19:54:32
about time the civil service got shaken up
Wouldn't disagree and as I've already posted, the bloke who quit is a shitbag himself so no tears shed there. But is bullying people out of their jobs really the best way to reform the civil service? That's not a serious and considered programme of reform, that's just shithouses throwing their weight about. That the kind of govt you want to stand behind? And the way you want our country to be run?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 20:03:42
Must be a candidate for birds you would but shouldn’t. Alas for me I wouldn’t and obviously won’t though I offer her to you stirred up bored momentum lefts to have a wank over tonight, enjoy.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8059787/Rebecca-Long-Bailey-says-Labour-toe-toe-against-Dominic-Cummings-leader.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 20:11:10
Wouldn't disagree and as I've already posted, the bloke who quit is a shitbag himself so no tears shed there. But is bullying people out of their jobs really the best way to reform the civil service? That's not a serious and considered programme of reform, that's just shithouses throwing their weight about. That the kind of govt you want to stand behind? And the way you want our country to be run?
I'll take that as a yes, then. And quite happy about Nazanine Zaghari-Ratcliffe being abandoned to die in an Iranian jail too. Nice.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 20:46:19
Do you think LL bet a grand on Liverpool beating Watford or something?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Saturday, February 29, 2020, 21:32:18
Nah probably just let some meat spoil or something.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, March 1, 2020, 12:26:37
Well, this partly explains the immigration policy:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8060473/Britain-doesnt-need-farmers-reveal-leaked-emails-senior-government-official.html

Apparently, we don't need an agricultural or food producing sector in our economy. So, that's agriculture, cars, manufacturing, anything else our economy doesn't need? Johnson really meant it when he said "Fuck Business" didn't he?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, March 1, 2020, 14:02:28
Well, this partly explains the immigration policy:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8060473/Britain-doesnt-need-farmers-reveal-leaked-emails-senior-government-official.html

Apparently, we don't need an agricultural or food producing sector in our economy. So, that's agriculture, cars, manufacturing, anything else our economy doesn't need? Johnson really meant it when he said "Fuck Business" didn't he?

You don’t believe the Daily Mail now do you? I know Easter is just around the corner and the bible is full of miracles but that’s a bit far fetched 🤣🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, March 1, 2020, 14:10:02
I really hope the fishing industry gets fucked over by brexit negotiations


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Sunday, March 1, 2020, 16:06:58
You don’t believe the Daily Mail now do you?
Why? Do they tell porkies?😲


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, March 1, 2020, 17:03:49
I really hope the fishing industry gets fucked over by brexit negotiations

I can see what you're angling towards. But I'd rather it wasn't. I have a friend who is a Fisherman and didn't vote leave. They rely on EU money to keep afloat.





*Zero puns intended too


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, March 1, 2020, 17:06:12
Why? Do they tell porkies?😲

Don't get confused with the News of the world😆


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Monday, March 2, 2020, 10:36:14
I was introduced to an active Labour Party supporter in a pub last night. They said they were battered & bruised by the recent General Election result, but couldn't understand why the electorate had voted the way they did. Hang on a minute?!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 2, 2020, 10:38:07
I was introduced to an active Labour Party supporter in a pub last night. They said they were battered & bruised by the recent General Election result, but couldn't understand why the electorate had voted the way they did. Hang on a minute?!
In which case, they've learned nothing from the result and if that is repeated throughout the party as a whole they will continue to lose elections.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Monday, March 2, 2020, 10:43:22
Exactly. It was the sheer arrogance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, March 2, 2020, 10:51:18
RLB is a contender for leadership. That says it all


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, March 2, 2020, 11:51:27
I get a vote and ain't gonna bother. My form will be spoilt and returned. Going forwards my vote will be for the Green party if they have a candidate in local/general elections.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 2, 2020, 12:28:10
I get a vote and ain't gonna bother. My form will be spoilt and returned. Going forwards my vote will be for the Green party if they have a candidate in local/general elections.
Why's that Arriba? Genuinely curious as to what's caused you to turn away from Labour, you've always been very supportive of them on here


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Monday, March 2, 2020, 13:16:13
I have voted.  Its very difficult. 

I don't think staying with a continuity candidate in RLB is a good idea.  It will just continue to be a massacre from the right wing establishment.  Im not sure momentums influence is positive for moving forward.

Lisa Nandy seems to young and possibly she would also be chewed up and spat out. 

Starmer has a fine analytical mind and could do the job but every time I see him he just looks like a rabbit in the headlights.

Fuck knows, but as a supporter of STFC and the Labour party Im used to anyone I back losing so I wont cry too much.  Cant get too invested in it.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, March 2, 2020, 13:20:16
Happy days.

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-will-cost-uk-more-than-donald-trump-trade-deal-2020-3


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, March 2, 2020, 13:23:35
Christ they are like primary school kids.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-news-boris-johnson-emergency-cobra-meeting-sadiq-khan-a9369176.html

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/mar/01/british-museum-put-mary-beard-on-the-board-despite-downing-st-veto


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 2, 2020, 13:25:39
Putting ideology and empty slogans above public health, No 10 has vetoed UK's continued membership of the EU's pandemic warning system in the midst of the coronavirus outbreak:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/03/01/downing-street-department-health-locked-row-access-eu-pandemic/

"Senior health advisers warned that exiting the EWRS, which has helped coordinate the response to the virus and played a vital role during the bird flu outbreak, would put public health at risk."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, March 2, 2020, 13:36:16
Why's that Arriba? Genuinely curious as to what's caused you to turn away from Labour, you've always been very supportive of them on here

The squabbling from supposed Labour supporters between themselves over the candidates is so pathetic. People haven't learned from the election and won't budge on it, so the party won't evolve like it desperately needs to. The candidates are poor. Both women will be toast with the media. Starmer will get it slightly easier but isn't exactly appealing either.

There have been occasions where I've voted Green before but dismissed them recently due to their chances. They are closest to my own beliefs at the moment.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, March 2, 2020, 14:14:25
I feel similar Arriba. I have voted Green (shock) more times than I have Labour now. Even when I know they haven't had a chance they just mirror my own thoughts (or as close to). AS for Labour, been saying for a while that Starmer is their only real prospect and if I still had membership - he'd get my vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, March 2, 2020, 14:56:08
He's definitely the pick of the 3, basically because I think he'll get the easier ride from the media.
The only chance Labour have is the complete and utter ineptitude of Boris and the other morons in that vile party.
Brexit isn't going to deliver what many think it will/want it to and that could also be a factor.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 2, 2020, 15:04:18
He's definitely the pick of the 3, basically because I think he'll get the easier ride from the media.
The only chance Labour have is the complete and utter ineptitude of Boris and the other morons in that vile party.
Brexit isn't going to deliver what many think it will/want it to and that could also be a factor.
The govt's own figures for the negotiating params with the US show that if we get the best deal we can with the Americans, it is projected to increase our GDP by 0.16%. While the "Canada-style" deal with the EU the govt want will decrease GDP by between 4.9-6.7%. Bearing in mind the prospect of a free trade agreement with the US was one of the "big wins" the Brexiteers were pushing, and from the govt's own figures it won't be even a fraction of what we're losing out on, even in the best case scenario. Economics of the madhouse.

Still, at least we'll all be "free" to consume rat hair and maggots in orange juice and cereals. Hurrah!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, March 2, 2020, 15:15:33
Good times eh


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, March 2, 2020, 15:36:53
I have voted.  Its very difficult.  

I don't think staying with a continuity candidate in RLB is a good idea.  It will just continue to be a massacre from the right wing establishment.  Im not sure momentums influence is positive for moving forward.

Lisa Nandy seems to young and possibly she would also be chewed up and spat out.  

Starmer has a fine analytical mind and could do the job but every time I see him he just looks like a rabbit in the headlights.

Fuck knows, but as a supporter of STFC and the Labour party Im used to anyone I back losing so I wont cry too much.  Cant get too invested in it.

Likewise, I get a vote and feel similarly, maybe slightly more positively to Nandy. I gave her my first preference with the full expectation of Starmer winning and being competent and broadly getting on with the media, which is at least a step forward. Goodness knows this government could do with a passable opposition.

The deputy leader candidates were a bit more interesting, for all the role matters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, March 2, 2020, 15:47:50
Likewise, I get a vote and feel similarly, maybe slightly more positively to Nandy. I gave her my first preference with the full expectation of Starmer winning and being competent and broadly getting on with the media, which is at least a step forward. Goodness knows this government could do with a passable opposition.

The deputy leader candidates were a bit more interesting, for all the role matters.

I don't have a dog in the fight but FWIW I hope Starmer gets it just to make Johnson look a bell end weekly at PMQ's. I have seen QC's pulverise bull shitters and its great fun as long as you are not on the end of it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, March 2, 2020, 15:58:11
I don't have a dog in the fight but FWIW I hope Starmer gets it just to make Johnson look a bell end weekly at PMQ's. I have seen QC's pulverise bull shitters and its great fun as long as you are not on the end of it.

Nah, Johnson will just go into full on shouty mode and quote numbers back like he normally does.

KS might be skilful enough to set the trap in the question though.

Anyway, the most important thing is that the guy who keeps asking for city status for Southend will one day get his way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, March 2, 2020, 16:28:14
Pretty grim reading https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-far-right-boris-johnson-immigration-identity-tommy-robinson-a9369041.html

In lighter news I see he has been nicked for having a fight at Center Parcs, nothing says patriot like scrapping at a family holiday resort! 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 3, 2020, 09:32:53
Just how pathetic has this country (and its media) become

From the FT

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESIYxjQX0AApyu7?format=jpg&name=medium)

As for the Telegraph, its just a sad nationalist comic these days.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1234544055389999107


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, March 3, 2020, 09:37:33
"Patriotic breakfast"

Fucking hell.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 3, 2020, 10:00:02
"Patriotic breakfast"

Fucking hell.

Thing is they are only printing this nonsense as they know it will appeal to the core audience!

I had marmite on toast so am expecting the knock at the door for re-education and the internment shortly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, March 3, 2020, 10:25:18
I had no idea that a full English could have so many people triggered (on twitter).



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 3, 2020, 10:47:17
I had no idea that a full English could have so many people triggered (on twitter).



Not seen much triggering, a lot of piss taking however.

The highlight so far has been a parody Mark Francois account having to explain a joke to James 'not so' Cleverly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, March 3, 2020, 11:40:08
(edit: oh, its mentioned above by horlock)

Except the man alegedly has learning difficulties.
--
Anyway regardless of what you think of that,  the way the TR brigade are out in force defending their  man a is a predictibly OTT. You know - Police arrest Tommy but "let the paedo off" ..

Er, perhaps the Police have more facts than you.. I dunno...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 3, 2020, 11:47:30
(edit: oh, its mentioned above by horlock)

Except the man alegedly has learning difficulties.
--
Anyway regardless of what you think of that,  the way the TR brigade are out in force defending their  man a is a predictibly OTT. You know - Police arrest Tommy but "let the paedo off" ..

Er, perhaps the Police have more facts than you.. I dunno...
And perhaps Yaxley Lennon has a track record of lying about this kind of stuff to generate outrage and more donations. Those million pound houses don't buy themselves, it takes 1000s of gullible angry frothing middle aged men clicking on Facebook and PayPal to do that. There are some people who almost want to be conned aren't there?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Tuesday, March 3, 2020, 17:31:33
Does Steven have a massive house now?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 3, 2020, 17:36:47
Does Steven have a massive house now?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48942411


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 4, 2020, 13:35:05
Nice to see we are literally deploying gunboats against our neighbours... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/royal-navy-uk-waters-fishing-brexit-vessels-protect-a9374496.html

How frightfully 19th century.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, March 4, 2020, 14:03:48
It’s getting a bit tasty on the Turkey-Greek border with the Syrian migrants in the middle.

Has all the hallmarks of turning into something nasty.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 5, 2020, 15:10:06
Two claims, two lies he just cannot help himself can he.

https://nursingnotes.co.uk/nursing-bursary-restored-hospital-parking-freeinsists-pm/

A view from Ireland, I think they are (not very secretly) enjoying this...

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/britain-is-uncomfortable-because-ireland-has-the-upper-hand-for-the-first-time-1.4187051


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 5, 2020, 17:26:00
Two claims, two lies he just cannot help himself can he.

https://nursingnotes.co.uk/nursing-bursary-restored-hospital-parking-freeinsists-pm/

A view from Ireland, I think they are (not very secretly) enjoying this...

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/britain-is-uncomfortable-because-ireland-has-the-upper-hand-for-the-first-time-1.4187051

Taking back control!

We're Ireland's (& everyone else's) bitch.  Thanks Brexit.

Our kids will reverse this nonsense.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Thursday, March 5, 2020, 18:21:51
Here ends the party political broadcast by the Neo Marxist party........ the party previously known as Labour.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Thursday, March 5, 2020, 18:26:25
Here ends the party political broadcast by the Neo Marxist party........ the party previously known as Labour.....
Hooray......you're back. I thought you'd disappeared up your own arsehole.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, March 5, 2020, 18:59:00
Here ends the party political broadcast by the Neo Marxist party........ the party previously known as Labour.....

Don't forget Labour and the Co-Operative party.  The Co-op Party currently has 26 MP's in alliance with Labour.  One of the CP's aims is to get greater fan control back into football, by pursuing Co-op ideals, so the fan purchase of 50% of the CG very much in tune with that notion of social democracy. I guess that rules you out then...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, March 5, 2020, 19:06:03
Hooray......you're back. I thought you'd disappeared up your own arsehole.

There was me hoping the same had happened to you. Still we live hope.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 5, 2020, 19:34:22
Here ends the party political broadcast by the Neo Marxist party........ the party previously known as Labour.....

I'm no Labour fanboy, Rob. Huge problems with the party.  Didn't vote for them for most of my adult life but, yes, I do hope the next leader starts to provide a bit of opposition.  Just like many, though, I have my head in my hands with the direction the country's heading in.  It's not going to end well.

Life isn't binary/black or white.  But I do hate the way that the country I grew up in is feeling less & less like somewhere that feels like home.  I don't hate your lot for having a different take on things to me, and you shouldn't hate me for this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, March 5, 2020, 19:42:44
I'm no Labour fanboy, Rob. Huge problems with the party.  Didn't vote for them for most of my adult life but, yes, I do hope the next leader starts to provide a bit of opposition.  Just like many, though, I have my head in my hands with the direction the country's heading in.  It's not going to end well.

Life isn't binary/black or white.  But I do hate the way that the country I grew up in is feeling less & less like somewhere that feels like home.  I don't hate your lot for having a different take on things to me, and you shouldn't hate me for this.

It doesn't work like that.

If you're not pro Boris it means you must be a Corbyn-loving commie.

FACT!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Thursday, March 5, 2020, 19:57:16
There was me hoping the same had happened to you. Still we live hope.
I see you've almost mastered English.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, March 5, 2020, 20:22:02
I see you've almost mastered English.

 :D :D :D :clap:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 5, 2020, 21:09:36
Dossier on over 300 instances of Islamophobia in the Tory Party reported to the EHRC. I'm sure Gosport Rob and LL will want to vigorously condemn the Tories for this as they were both so concerned to condemn Labour for allegations of anti-semitism. And no, this doesn't make Labour's lack of action on those allegations any better

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51756463


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Thursday, March 5, 2020, 21:14:01
Oh Reg Reg Reg you know nothing about me! I actually worked for the Co-op in the early seventies and agree with most of its ideals. I used to go to the local shop with my grandpa and spend his "divi" great fun.
I can assure you the movement shares very few of the ideals of the Ultra Corbynites.
You seem very "pro stfc trust" which level of member are you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Thursday, March 5, 2020, 21:36:23
Hi PaulD. I do not support racism in any form and condemn it wholeheartedly ( bit of plagourism from magic grandpa I admit.)
I agree that the current government have not made a great start giving the go-ahead to policies I do not agree with.

However I have seen the militant far left at work in Swindon first hand (Red Robbo?) and can assure you it was so bad it was really scary.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Thursday, March 5, 2020, 21:42:51
Ps. What or who are hidden users? Is it some sort of secret society with funny handshakes etc?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, March 5, 2020, 22:07:10
Ps. What or who are hidden users? Is it some sort of secret society with funny handshakes etc?

Sshhhh. That’s an ice cube on a broken tooth. How very dare you mention it 😁

You’ll be derided like I was when I mentioned it a while back so be prepared.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, March 5, 2020, 22:19:50
Hi PaulD. I do not support racism in any form and condemn it wholeheartedly ( bit of plagourism from magic grandpa I admit.)
I agree that the current government have not made a great start giving the go-ahead to policies I do not agree with.

However I have seen the militant far left at work in Swindon first hand (Red Robbo?) and can assure you it was so bad it was really scary.

However I have seen the militant far left at work in Swindon first hand (Red Robbo?) and can assure you it was so bad it was really scary.

Interesting that you should bring that up. I can think of a few instances that are interesting. My late old chap an immigrant always voted labour, back in the day it was expected of ‘working class people’. Thankfully working at pressed Steel for decades and watching all the shit flying from the unions and unsavoury individuals he realised that voting conservative for the first time in ‘79 was the way forward and he never looked back. He bought his council house much to consternation of his neighbour who used to be really big in the local Labour Party in the days of Stoddard. Roll on a few years or so when house prices were on the up, low and behold Mr. Labour bigwig did the same. By eck, if you can’t beat them fucking join them and fill your boots. I have a very very good acquaintance who was also big in the local Labour Party going on flying picket duty and rallies. Told about some really nasty militant tendency shit that makes my skin crawl. Low and behold he does not give a stuff about labour now, unelectable shower and completely out of touch with their core support, which would have been people like my late father and me interestingly enough, though you know how that worked out. Labour the victim party, except those up the top end of the pile playing lip service to those they keep saying are down trodden, oppressed etc and promising to make it good for them at others peoples expense, except they don’t and have not as I see it. Clearly a fuck load of their core support saw it too at the election and back in 2016 with the Brexit vote. Still likely to rinse and repeat going forward. Hey ho.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, March 5, 2020, 22:28:37
I'm a hidden user. Can you still see my posts (unfortunately or not) here?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Friday, March 6, 2020, 00:31:01
That's the point though. I can see this post but is that because you have let me? Perhaps your nefarious hidden user business is beyond my comprehension ie. Way above my pay grade.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, March 6, 2020, 01:24:36
LL - You been on the Buckfast again?

Grospot - The "hidden" function doesn't allow the user to do that. I was toying with you. All it does, to my knowledge is just allow a user to be here without visibility. Different users will have different reasons as to why they choose to be.

More regular posters might want to just read without communicating. If they were "online", that could prompt someone to contact them, "hidden" gives them piece of mind I suppose.

Some may use it because they are always here and don't want others to know that they are.

Others it could be for work or family reasons.

What definitely isn't the case, is it isn't for/can't be used for anything sinister. Well I can't think of how they could. It's purely for an individuals personal privacy and I think ultimately, that should be respected.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, March 6, 2020, 07:22:54
However I have seen the militant far left at work in Swindon first hand (Red Robbo?) and can assure you it was so bad it was really scary.

Interesting that you should bring that up. I can think of a few instances that are interesting. My late old chap an immigrant always voted labour, back in the day it was expected of ‘working class people’. Thankfully working at pressed Steel for decades and watching all the shit flying from the unions and unsavoury individuals he realised that voting conservative for the first time in ‘79 was the way forward and he never looked back. He bought his council house much to consternation of his neighbour who used to be really big in the local Labour Party in the days of Stoddard. Roll on a few years or so when house prices were on the up, low and behold Mr. Labour bigwig did the same. By eck, if you can’t beat them fucking join them and fill your boots. I have a very very good acquaintance who was also big in the local Labour Party going on flying picket duty and rallies. Told about some really nasty militant tendency shit that makes my skin crawl. Low and behold he does not give a stuff about labour now, unelectable shower and completely out of touch with their core support, which would have been people like my late father and me interestingly enough, though you know how that worked out. Labour the victim party, except those up the top end of the pile playing lip service to those they keep saying are down trodden, oppressed etc and promising to make it good for them at others peoples expense, except they don’t and have not as I see it. Clearly a fuck load of their core support saw it too at the election and back in 2016 with the Brexit vote. Still likely to rinse and repeat going forward. Hey ho.

Cool story bro  :toocool:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 6, 2020, 09:45:10
That's the point though. I can see this post but is that because you have let me? Perhaps your nefarious hidden user business is beyond my comprehension ie. Way above my pay grade.
It just indicates whether you show up in the logged in user's list on the front page. That's it. End of. Stop being ridiculous.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 6, 2020, 09:48:36
Its all get a bit tin foily this morning.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 6, 2020, 09:50:11
Its all get a bit tin foily this morning.....
Surprising that given some of the recent contributors on the thread....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Friday, March 6, 2020, 14:10:29
Ok pauld. Just to get this clear in my mind hidden user status serves no purpose at all other than to enable members to log in but not to show on logged in list? What a fucking waste of time that is then and casts doubt on hidden users sanity. How can I become a hidden user?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, March 6, 2020, 14:29:55

 How can I become a hidden user?


Avoid coming here anymore?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, March 6, 2020, 14:33:10
Ok pauld. Just to get this clear in my mind hidden user status serves no purpose at all other than to enable members to log in but not to show on logged in list? What a fucking waste of time that is then and casts doubt on hidden users sanity. How can I become a hidden user?
I always thought a hidden user was a forum member just lurking, Reading the forum but just not logged on.

I only log on to post but regularly lurk.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, March 6, 2020, 14:34:51
I always thought a hidden user was a forum member just lurking, Reading the forum but just not logged on.


Those are guests.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 6, 2020, 14:44:42
Ok pauld. Just to get this clear in my mind hidden user status serves no purpose at all other than to enable members to log in but not to show on logged in list? What a fucking waste of time that is then and casts doubt on hidden users sanity. How can I become a hidden user?
It's in your account profile settings somewhere I think, although surprised you're asking given "it's a fucking waste of time" and "casts doubt on hidden users sanity". You don't need to anyway, your posts do that for you :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, March 6, 2020, 14:46:32
It's in your account profile settings somewhere I think, although surprised you're asking given "it's a fucking waste of time" and "casts doubt on hidden users sanity". You don't need to anyway, your posts do that for you :)

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Friday, March 6, 2020, 15:00:56
What a fucking waste of time that is then and casts doubt on hidden users sanity. How can I become a hidden user?
Only a Tory voting Brexiteer could come up with that.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 6, 2020, 15:05:56
Avoid coming here anymore?

It would be a shame to lose him in the same way that every village needs an idiot, every forum needs a right wing loon or two. There's been a vacancy since the lose of SRK.

I partiucularly like the stuff about Pressed Steel.... although not sure where Derek Robinson comes into that.  Robinson was something of a moderate, who spent much of his time trying to control some of the more radical elements at Cowley.  {Pressed Steel) Swindon was notoriously politically moderate, mainly as it had taken on a lot of ex Railwaymen, who were schooled in old GWR (BR) paternalistic values.

It used to be rumoured, although I never believed it, that the football animosity between Swindon and Headington, sprang from the failure of Swindon workers to back Cowley workers.

There used to be a few SWP and WRP types in Swindon, and I still know a veteran SWP chap, who's good fun to chat to.

The Communist Party had a more interesting presence, and used to field candidates unsuccessfully at elections... the legendary Ike Gradwell, daughter Judith carried on the hammer, and then missus Angela (nee Tuckett) the sickle.

The CP ran the Star Club in Bridge Street.... a great venue, where you could read the  Morning Star.  The advantage of the Star Club was in the week pubs closed at 10:30, the Star more flexible.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Friday, March 6, 2020, 15:08:19
Exactly pauld didn't think you would be able to spot irony.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 6, 2020, 15:15:54
Exactly pauld didn't think you would be able to spot irony.
It's nigh on impossible to tell whether you're even genuine or just a parody account tbh.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 6, 2020, 15:16:59
It would be a shame to lose him in the same way that every village needs an idiot, every forum needs a right wing loon or two. There's been a vacancy since the lose of SRK.
LL's doing his best although his refusal to engage in any actual discussion makes him a bit sterile. I notice that unlike Rob he's still not found it within himself to condemn the allegations of Islamophobia against the Tory party so assume he's OK with it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Friday, March 6, 2020, 15:27:21
I am not a bot!
I lived in Swindon for many years.
I've supported stfc for over 60 years.
I am not "right wing"
I believe a Conservative government is the lesser of two weavels at the present time.
Unlike Owen Jones and clones I realise I am not a god with divine right.
I am an idiot but a happy idiot.
The pressed steel strike in the late sixties was because the employer paid Cowley staff a higher rate for the same job.
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 6, 2020, 15:29:27
I think you've misunderstood what a parody account is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, March 6, 2020, 15:38:29
I am not a bot!
I believe a Conservative government is the lesser of two weavels
I am an idiot

My guess is he’s an LL tribute act


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Friday, March 6, 2020, 15:58:07
I did not misunderstand parody I chose to ignore that comment!

"Weavel" was not a misspelling it relates to a joke told by Russell Crowe.

I post on here as myself not as a pseudonym for any other person.

Every thread needs a ying to go with it's yang.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Friday, March 6, 2020, 16:08:58
Ps. Reg in response to one of my earlier posts you extolled the virtues of the Co-op movement linking it to the aims of stfc trust community involvement.

I asked what level of trust membership you held.

Care to share a reply?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, March 6, 2020, 16:11:40
I did not misunderstand parody I chose to ignore that comment!

"Weavel" was not a misspelling it relates to a joke told by Russell Crowe.

I post on here as myself not as a pseudonym for any other person.

Every thread needs a ying to go with it's yang.


Even if that’s true, it would be weevils.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, March 6, 2020, 16:15:59
I post on here as myself not as a pseudonym for any other person.

Come again?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 6, 2020, 17:01:59
Whilst I would hate to interrupt this feast of victimhood and paranoia....

Marina Hyde on good form as always....

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/06/boris-johnson-prime-minister-pandemic-baby 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 6, 2020, 17:10:45
Nice to see the govt can't even bring themselves to stop lying about something as serious as coronavirus - Hancock on QT last night claiming the govt had been talking to supermarkets about ensuring food supplies to homes of people who had been self-isolated. This lunchtime, roundly denied by all the major supermarkets

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51769184

i.e. they're blatantly lying about the levels of preparation for what become a serious epidemic. What a shame those 50,000 new nurses aren't actually new nurses or that £350m a week isn't going to the NHS and that both our health and social care services have been slashed to the bone by a decade of austerity - they all might have been handy in dealing with it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, March 6, 2020, 17:48:04
Has Grospot even noticed yet?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, March 6, 2020, 18:00:27
I miss Chalkies Shorts.

You could hold a discussion with him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Friday, March 6, 2020, 20:25:17
I miss Chalkies Shorts.

You could hold a discussion with him.

Yep. Good guy.  I didn't agree with everything he posted, but he could argue his point well.  Hope he's doing well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, March 9, 2020, 12:38:55
+1 to the Chalkiesshorts love in.

Bloody hell Labour, without going into the whys and whatabouts, the way they have managed the suspension of Trevor Phillips seems to be another textbook example of shooting oneself in the foot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, March 9, 2020, 16:23:08
For balance, from Stewart Lee

(https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/89608946_3107795922612792_7872976564567146496_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=r_KQffkOAM0AX9lndZ3&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-1.fna&oh=b7a2ee2a1b10927526cefd612ca330a2&oe=5E8E8B6C)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, March 9, 2020, 19:53:04
LL's doing his best although his refusal to engage in any actual discussion makes him a bit sterile. I notice that unlike Rob he's still not found it within himself to condemn the allegations of Islamophobia against the Tory party so assume he's OK with it?

Raise you anti Semitism.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, March 9, 2020, 20:02:50
Ps. Reg in response to one of my earlier posts you extolled the virtues of the Co-op movement linking it to the aims of stfc trust community involvement.

I asked what level of trust membership you held.

Care to share a reply?

Not a fucking chance. I am still waiting for an answer as to whether he was going into capitalism and buying a share to purchase the ground via the trust. That was wayyyy back last year.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Monday, March 9, 2020, 22:04:41
Raise you anti Semitism.

You don’t give a shit about anti-semitism.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 9, 2020, 22:46:21
Raise you anti Semitism.
If you mean do I condemn the appalling way Labour have handled anti-semitism in the party, yes of course I do, and have done repeatedly (and been slammed for it by Labour supporters) in this thread. But you know that, and you're just ducking the question. To refresh your memory:
" I notice that unlike Rob he's still not found it within himself to condemn the allegations of Islamophobia against the Tory party so assume he's OK with it?"
Rob was very happy to swiftly condemn Islamophobia within the Tory party, you seem much more reluctant. How so?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, March 9, 2020, 23:37:59
If you mean do I condemn the appalling way Labour have handled anti-semitism in the party, yes of course I do, and have done repeatedly (and been slammed for it by Labour supporters) in this thread. But you know that, and you're just ducking the question. To refresh your memory:
" I notice that unlike Rob he's still not found it within himself to condemn the allegations of Islamophobia against the Tory party so assume he's OK with it?"
Rob was very happy to swiftly condemn Islamophobia within the Tory party, you seem much more reluctant. How so?

Rob was very happy to swiftly condemn Islamophobia within the Tory party, you seem much more reluctant. How so?

Because I don’t read everything you fucking post... I find you tiresome. I am reasonably confidant that fundamentally you’re not a bad person. But to be honest you fucking belt on and on and on about so much shit and come across as being a hysterical, premenstral hormone charged teenaged Becky Pollard with a chip on each shoulder (to add balance) and bore the pants of me to the point I switch off. I have pretty much given up trying to have a conversation and perish the thought try to take that to the level of a passionate debate. We clearly are on a different journey in life and TBF i do not have the energy or the time you seem to have to try and change the world in this social media platform. So to conclude the only thing we have in common is Swindon Town, shame they play in red. I leave you with this, 5-10 years in the wilderness. 78 seats and Brexit, at least we have STFC in common.

What you and others fail to recognise is that due to the nature of this site and the lack of moderation that there are no new posters of note to add anything meaningful and indeed over recent years have lost posters because of it. Trawl back over each forum page and see who the main posters are. You must have heard of the 80/20 rule? Seriously I wouldn’t bother to reply because like a number of posters you are about to be added to my ignore list and I will only add posts from here on in on football related comments. Of course I will look at the threads after all they are an excellent source of entertainment, well the ones not blocked.

Lastly and to answer your latest meltdown. I find Islamaphobia and any kind of racism repugnant. After all I am the son of an immigrant, so why wouldn’t I? I also do not need to reinforce that by responding to your shrill finger pointing which could be construed as a similar piece of phobia, ism or victimisation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Monday, March 9, 2020, 23:56:41
Lastly and to answer your latest meltdown......
Says he, at the end of massive meltdown......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 03:00:29
Who is Becky Pollard?  :hmmm:

Oh and; receptacle vociferating the vessel #000000


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 08:36:33
Says he, at the end of massive meltdown......

The guy is a monumental horse helmet.

cue the irony - 'Because I don’t read everything you fucking post... I find you tiresome'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 08:40:08
 :deadhorse:

Life is too short to be arguing with each other, you all have different opinions, do you think you'll change each others? Also, repeating the same stuff doesn't make your opinion right, it's just YOUR opinion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 08:45:17
Who is Becky Pollard?  :hmmm:

Oh and; receptacle vociferating the vessel #000000

Vicky’s lesser known sister. You must remember her catchphrase “No and yeah and”?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 09:32:31
Don’t know about the rest, but this bit’s unforgivable.

”Swindon Town, shame they play in red.”


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 09:48:01
Gonna miss Harry....

https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1237102238893572096


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 10:15:19
This thread really is unbelievably self-obsessed.

For "Let's Get Political" read "Let's go round in circles trying to prove that I'm better and wiser than you are" whilst ironically proving exactly the opposite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 10:16:24
I didn't mean your post Horlock, all the previous crap


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 10:17:58
This thread really is unbelievably self-obsessed.

For "Let's Get Political" read "Let's go round in circles trying to prove that I'm better and wiser than you are" whilst ironically proving exactly the opposite.


 :nod:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 10:28:40
BBC News and Current Affairs continuing to demonstrate why the whole unit needs scrapping and relaunching, and doing it's best to undermine support for the BBC at a time when it's under govt attack. This time it's interviewing Farage on Newsnight about coronavirus. It's arguable whether he has any relevance to politics any more, he certainly knows less than fuck all about epidemiology.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 10:40:25
This thread really is unbelievably self-obsessed.

For "Let's Get Political" read "Let's go round in circles trying to prove that I'm better and wiser than you are" whilst ironically proving exactly the opposite.


Actually several posters were lamenting the absence of Chalkie’s Shorts, a pro Tory, pro Brexit poster who actually made coherent points that were thought-provoking, intelligent and interesting.
Contrast that with LL’s lack of engagement save from ad hominem personal attacks, homophobic slurs, “we won, you lost” style taunting and champions league level whataboutery.

PaulD and Horlock are regular posters but they also regularly criticise Labour. Whereas LL seems to treat this thread like it’s a Swindon v Oxford matchday thread where no ground can be conceded to the enemy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 10:52:11
BBC News and Current Affairs continuing to demonstrate why the whole unit needs scrapping and relaunching, and doing it's best to undermine support for the BBC at a time when it's under govt attack. This time it's interviewing Farage on Newsnight about coronavirus. It's arguable whether he has any relevance to politics any more, he certainly knows less than fuck all about epidemiology.

Although TBF as someone pointed out on Twitter, its just their normal balance editorial standard in that the BBC has tried to understand the story from the point of view of a parasitic, destructive virus that forces its host to self-isolate from its nearest and dearest at great financial cost.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 11:12:26
Although TBF as someone pointed out on Twitter, its just their normal balance editorial standard in that the BBC has tried to understand the story from the point of view of a parasitic, destructive virus that forces its host to self-isolate from its nearest and dearest at great financial cost.
:D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 11:31:43
Actually several posters were lamenting the absence of Chalkie’s Shorts, a pro Tory, pro Brexit poster who actually made coherent points that were thought-provoking, intelligent and interesting.
Contrast that with LL’s lack of engagement save from ad hominem personal attacks, homophobic slurs, “we won, you lost” style taunting and champions league level whataboutery.

PaulD and Horlock are regular posters but they also regularly criticise Labour. Whereas LL seems to treat this thread like it’s a Swindon v Oxford matchday thread where no ground can be conceded to the enemy.

Fair point though I think that the "no ground can be conceded to the enemy" comment could reasonably be attributed to rather more of us than just LL.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 11:31:52
This thread really is unbelievably self-obsessed.

For "Let's Get Political" read "Let's go round in circles trying to prove that I'm better and wiser than you are" whilst ironically proving exactly the opposite.


Welcome to the internet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 11:33:43
Although TBF as someone pointed out on Twitter, its just their normal balance editorial standard in that the BBC has tried to understand the story from the point of view of a parasitic, destructive virus that forces its host to self-isolate from its nearest and dearest at great financial cost.

 Excellent  ;D.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 11:39:11
This thread really is unbelievably self-obsessed.

For "Let's Get Political" read "Let's go round in circles trying to prove that I'm better and wiser than you are" whilst ironically proving exactly the opposite.

I'll put my (repeatedly washed) hands up here. Baiting LL personally on the Islamophobia thing was a bit twatty. Apologies to both LL and those who waded through the last page.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 11:40:10
Fair point though I think that the "no ground can be conceded to the enemy" comment could reasonably be attributed to rather more of us than just LL.

Understood.

I’m sure that, like Chalkie’s Shorts, if a poster with right-wing and/or pro Brexit views was prepared to engage without resorting to name-calling or point-scoring, they’d actually find many posters willing to engage too and maybe even find some common ground. Very few issues are black or white and this thread could be constructively used to discuss the nuances in between.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 12:49:49
Official govt handwashing guide

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESv1vDvWkAAF_EP?format=jpg&name=small)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 13:08:29
Official govt handwashing guide

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESv1vDvWkAAF_EP?format=jpg&name=small)

The advice doing the rounds up here is to wash your hands like you have been chopping chillis and feel the need to knock one out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 13:12:42
The advice doing the rounds up here is to wash your hands like you have been chopping chillis and feel the need to knock one out.

or the cleaner (no pun) version is "...chopping chilis knowing you've got to put contact lenses back in again."

The burn would be felt all round and in any case  :soapy tit wank:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 22:32:45
Even if a majority of members don't like this thread, does it really matter?  This really is overall a relatively very civilised politics thread and a credit to TEF-ers.  Chalkies' influence?  Dissenting members have other threads, can create their own new ones or simply not return, with or without a flounce.

No one here is going to change the world or win the internet.  We do all actually know that.

Racism and xenophobia (as I see it  ;) ) is my personal bugbear, so apologies in advance for where I may in the future overstep the mark in any exchange.  Hypocrisy is always a laugh and I think most of us can see that in all parties, even if we more easily see it in our political opposites (if any).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 08:53:43
Chris Grayling going to be in charge of the Intelligence Committe.

:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 08:55:08
Chris Grayling going to be in charge of the Intelligence Committe.

:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Christ. It's Python-esque.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 09:00:31
The govt are just trolling us all now aren't they?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 09:42:26
Chris Grayling going to be in charge of the Intelligence Committe.

:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Whilst a  Health Minister (Nadine Dorries) fell ill on Friday, ignored government advice and spent the weekend with constituents also attending a no.10 event with the PM, instead of self isolating and has been diagnosed with Coronavirus.

You really couldn't make that up!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 10:04:08
Just remember, a dog is not just for Christmas, (unless when its part of a cynical political stunt obviously!)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ES0B0_hXQAAbGB8?format=jpg&name=large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 10:40:50
The state of that 'news' page. The bit about the skull I guess is vaguely newsworthy but the stories about a fisherman that didn't catch a big fish and another one about a fucking dog?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 11:22:14
Just remember, a dog is not just for Christmas, (unless when its part of a cynical political stunt obviously!)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ES0B0_hXQAAbGB8?format=jpg&name=large)


Newly rescued puppy craps in first floor flat shock.  Who'd have guessed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 11:29:33

Newly rescued puppy craps in first floor flat shock.  Who'd have guessed.
From that article, it sounds more like Johnson is the problem than the puppy. Leave the dog where it is and have Johnson rehomed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 11:33:15
From that article, it sounds more like Johnson is the problem than the puppy. Leave the dog where it is and have Johnson rehomed.

I am sure he will be re-homing himself like he always does shortly, especially once then poor child turns up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 11:34:10
Served in the British Army as a sergeant for 14 years, including tours in Afghanistan and Iraq, father of two England Rugby players, not allowed to re-enter the country to tend to his sick wife as she awaits cancer surgery, due to Home Office immigration rules. This is the reality of the "hostile environment" - stupid, heartless and punishing those who have served this country with distinction (and who's family continue to do so)

https://www.ruck.co.uk/england-rugby-players-ex-soldier-father-stuck-abroad-due-to-immigration-rules/#:~:text=A%20former%20British%20army%20sergeant,from%20returning%20to%20the%20UK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 11:38:25
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51805684


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 11:44:52
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51805684
Iain Duncan Smith was knighted for this shit, absolutely horrific.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 11:47:34
Whilst a  Health Minister (Nadine Dorries) fell ill on Friday, ignored government advice and spent the weekend with constituents also attending a no.10 event with the PM, instead of self isolating and has been diagnosed with Coronavirus.

You really couldn't make that up!
She's clearly been quite stupid and irresponsible in ignoring her own dept's guidelines and so has likely helped spread the virus. But the response of some on the left (on Twitter etc, thankfully not on here) has been appalling. By all means condemn her stupidity, but beyond that the only sane response to learning someone has caught this awful disease is to wish them a speedy recovery.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 11:50:32
Im surprised Johnson hasn't taken the opportunity to self isolate immediately.  Is there not a fridge he could hide in for the next 2 weeks?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 13:05:15
Rishi Sunak seems to be delivering a thoroughly Keynesian budget. The power of entrenched opinion probably means it won't be recognised as being really quite invest-to-spend in either right or left wing press, but it really doesn't feel that far off a Gordon Brown budget so far. Fewer statistics perhaps.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 13:13:24
I can't read Sunak as anything other than Snoke.,,


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 13:40:40
Seems a reasonably good budget in the circumstances.  Bears no resemblance to anything that the Tories have been saying for the previous decade.  If Labour had proposed something similar, the Tory press would have attacked it viciously.  It will be interesting to see how it's covered in the Telegraph and the Daily Mail.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 13:51:13
Seems a reasonably good budget in the circumstances.  Bears no resemblance to anything that the Tories have been saying for the previous decade.  If Labour had proposed something similar, the Tory press would have attacked it viciously.  It will be interesting to see how it's covered in the Telegraph and the Daily Mail.

Tories brilliant, Labour wankers!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 13:56:31
Seems a reasonably good budget in the circumstances.  Bears no resemblance to anything that the Tories have been saying for the previous decade.  If Labour had proposed something similar, the Tory press would have attacked it viciously.  It will be interesting to see how it's covered in the Telegraph and the Daily Mail.
Barring broadband and the odd nationalisation (which the Tories have already done with Northern Rail), Labour pretty much did propose something similar. Certainly as you say, much closer to the Labour manifesto than anything the Tories proposed.

That aside, so far seems to be sensible and if this does spell the end of austerity, not a moment too soon. Most of that "new spending" and "emergency package" for coronavirus is needed to *start* putting a dent in the damage done by a decade of austerity.

Looking forward to seeing Sunak being attacked as a Marxist crackpot by the usual suspects :)

EDIT: the red diesel fuel duty thing specifically excludes agriculture, rail, fishing and domestic heating so I cut that bit out. Although if it's excluding all those sectors, seems a bit pointless really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 14:16:09
Sunak is a slobbering Marxist.

Only good/exiting element of the budget was his reference to works of fiction such as McDonnell's book!

Farming exempt from red deisel tax change I believe? Please try harder as this was a Thunberg climate emergency sop?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: GosportNob on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 14:34:30
Ok I'm really pissed off now. Whoever thought it was clever to change my forum name (Presumably a moderator/admin) needs to get a fucking life!

I assume this has been done before if a user/posters beliefs are a fraction to the right of pauld?

Goodbye to you all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: normy on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 14:36:26
Barring broadband and the odd nationalisation (which the Tories have already done with Northern Rail), Labour pretty much did propose something similar. Certainly as you say, much closer to the Labour manifesto than anything the Tories proposed. Although freezing fuel duty except for red diesel seems a bit harsh on farmers, but given they've decided we don't need a food sector, much less agriculture, may as well start the kicking now.

That aside, so far seems to be sensible and if this does spell the end of austerity, not a moment too soon. Most of that "new spending" and "emergency package" for coronavirus is needed to *start* putting a dent in the damage done by a decade of austerity.

Looking forward to seeing Sunak being attacked as a Marxist crackpot by the usual suspects :)

Agreed.   I wonder if this big giveaway and borrowing Budget could have been done quite a few years ago (in theory)  when interest rates were also very low, but I don't really get economics, perhaps there were reasons they could not?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 14:37:19
Good to see money being set aside to remove combustible cladding from housing. Several years too late, but that's not Sunak's fault.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 14:37:52
Agreed.   I wonder if this big giveaway and borrowing Budget could have been done quite a few years ago (in theory)  when interest rates were also very low, but I don't really get economics, perhaps there were reasons they could not?
There were, but they were political not economic reasons. Austerity was always a political project.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 15:11:26
I can't read Sunak as anything other than Snoke.,,

How about snoek.... Saffer fish

(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/1a/d0/15/1ad0159b7eafaac1b99ac5ff9636aa98.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 15:29:59
Ok I'm really pissed off now. Whoever thought it was clever to change my forum name (Presumably a moderator/admin) needs to get a fucking life!

I assume this has been done before if a user/posters beliefs are a fraction to the right of pauld?

Goodbye to you all.

see ya! Have another cunt point to boot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 15:31:55
Quote from: GosportNob
Ok I'm really pissed off now. Whoever thought it was clever to change my forum name (Presumably a moderator/admin) needs to get a fucking life!

I assume this has been done before if a user/posters beliefs are a fraction to the right of pauld?

Goodbye to you all.


soapy tit wank.

Audrey, offering any solidarity?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 15:44:10
Heh


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 15:45:38
Got used to it ages ago. Badger of Honour!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 18:22:17
He's noticed   :pint:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 06:56:47
Benefit of the UK leaving the EU: UK not included in flight ban with USA. Good news for ex-pats in States I guess. A failure of EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 07:04:13
Benefit of the UK leaving the EU: UK not included in flight ban with USA. Good news for ex-pats in States I guess. A failure of EU.

I don't think Ireland are included either.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 07:22:32
I don't think Ireland are included either.

Or Bulgaria, Croatia and Romania.
Iceland and Switzerland are included though (neither are in the EU)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 07:41:49
So it is the core of the western European countries? Those affected by EU regulations, and their neighbours whose political borders are ignored by disease.
The remainers got their wish about potential shortages in shops and unfair restriction of movement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 09:09:14
Benefit of the UK leaving the EU: UK not included in flight ban with USA. Good news for ex-pats in States I guess. A failure of EU.
It's really not. It's just Trump looking for someone to blame for the "foreign virus". Because viral infections always respect political alliances.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 09:36:14
So it is the core of the western European countries? Those affected by EU regulations, and their neighbours whose political borders are ignored by disease.
The remainers got their wish about potential shortages in shops and unfair restriction of movement.

D- for tolling.

Are you Dominic Raab, are you not aware of the channel tunnel?

The main driver for Trumps ban seems to be based upon whether or not they speak English in a country, that and where he has resorts located obviously.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 10:17:54
Benefit of the UK leaving the EU: UK not included in flight ban with USA. Good news for ex-pats in States I guess. A failure of EU.

In case you were wondering, the cunt point was from me for joining Trump in putting petty political points-scoring ahead of genuine health considerations. Well done, you blimp.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 11:02:49
D- for tolling.


E- for speling



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 11:05:21
E- for speling


:D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 11:36:54
E- for speling


Better than I used to get!  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 12:20:36
Benefit of the UK leaving the EU: UK not included in flight ban with USA. Good news for ex-pats in States I guess. A failure of EU.
The flight ban and blame on the EU is based on Trump's calculation of how it might play in the November election.

If it were driven by health considerations, the twat would have consulted with his EU counterparts.

Unfortunately, like him or loathe him, there is no place for partisan gamesmanship at the present time - rather co-operation is required.  From an international trade viewpoint, Trump has been stirring it up with China, the EU and has even been linking a US UK trade deal with the UK's sovereign decision over its 3G future.

What we will desperately need, whenever we start to come out of this, is actions that will be conducive to world trade, not unilateral arm wrestling with bans, tariffs, embargos and such like.

Depending on how Coronavirus all pans out, I can see commonsense grounds for extending the transition period.  A No Deal (which I accept some Brexitists see as desirable as a negotiating ploy or even as an end in itself) could just be a crazy act of economic self harm if much of the world inc the UK is convalescing after or indeed caught up in recession.

Obviously it would be "political" if this happened.  We'd have to change our own statute barring any extension. However, I would really like to see the EU help the UK in de-politicising such a decision (if it did become economically prudent) and for an increased level of co-operation to ensue.

Trump is absolutely the wrong man for such times.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 12:30:23
The flight ban and blame on the EU is based on Trump's calculation of how it might play in the November election.

If it were driven by health considerations, the twat would have consulted with his EU counterparts.

Unfortunately, like him or loathe him, there is no place for partisan gamesmanship at the present time - rather co-operation is required.  From an international trade viewpoint, Trump has been stirring it up with China, the EU and has even been linking a US UK trade deal with the UK's sovereign decision over its 3G future.

What we will desperately need, whenever we start to come out of this, is actions that will be conducive to world trade, not unilateral arm wrestling with bans, tariffs, embargos and such like.

Depending on how Coronavirus all pans out, I can see commonsense grounds for extending the transition period.  A No Deal (which I accept some Brexitists see as desirable as a negotiating ploy or even as an end in itself) could just be a crazy act of economic self harm if much of the world inc the UK is convalescing after or indeed caught up in recession.

Obviously it would be "political" if this happened.  We'd have to change our own statute barring any extension. However, I would really like to see the EU help the UK in de-politicising such a decision (if it did become economically prudent) and for an increased level of co-operation to ensue.

Trump is absolutely the wrong man for such times.
I'm afraid your hope that politics can be taken out of the decisions around coronavirus and recovery from it already seem doomed. The govt have already signalled, by pulling out of the European Pandemic Early Warning and Response System, that they place how Brexit "plays" above public health. Commonsense has long since left the building


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 12:33:11
Trump has been stirring it up with China, the EU and has even been linking a US UK trade deal with the UK's sovereign decision over its 3G future.


Just picking up on this, whilst its atopic way outside my area of expertise (or even basic knowledge) I was speaking with a guy who works in mobile technology the other week who suggested that the main reason that the US have a bee in their bonnet about Huiwei and 5G is that they will not have the ability to hack into it if its Chinese led?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 12:38:50
Interesting.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to have any direct view on Huawei's involvement in 5G infrastructure.  ( I see how I mistakenly referred to our "3G" future - shows how techy I am  :) )

It's just after all the "sovereignty" hullabaloo, I find it more than co-incidental that it is the Brexitists in the HC who want us to follow Trump's view on how we should proceed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 12:43:57
It's just after all the "sovereignty" hullabaloo, I find it more than co-incidental that it is the Brexitists in the HC who want us to follow Trump's view on how we should proceed.
Most were, but (e.g.) Damian Green is firmly One Nation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 13:29:36
Interesting to note.  

I am not knowledgeable enough even to have a view on the merits and risks of involving Huawei in our 5G system.

What I do discern is a political connection between Brexitism and Trumpian Atlanticism.

My view is that the likes of Trump and Putin have sought to weaken the EU.

The UK however has been almost uniquely placed as a bridge between the distinctive but shared cultures of Europe and North America.

The cold war was "won" with the former Soviet satellite states now part of the EU.  Our GDP grew by more than Germany's or the USA's between 1973-2016.  Win, win for the UK's Atlanticism and Europeanism.

But Trump and a certain type of Tory have more dystopian visions.








Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 13:48:47
Interesting to note. 

I am not knowledgeable enough even to have a view on the merits and risks of involving Huawei in our 5G system.

What I do discern is a political connection between Brexitism and Trumpian Atlanticism.
That's a given - you can see that in the cross-pollination of personnel e.g. most of the Leave.EU lot having close connections with Trump's campaign, Farage doing stump speeches for Trump, Bannon over here advising Johnson's leadership campaign etc. They are two sides of the same coin


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 14:25:02
Flipping back to the budget, nice to see Sunak confirming yesterday that Johnson's £350m per week was always a lie

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/budget-rushi-sunak-treasury-figures-brexit-dividend-a9395476.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 23:30:07
Well done, you blimp.

Blimp! Haven't seen/heard it used in that context for a good while. Bon travail!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Thursday, March 12, 2020, 23:41:53
Flipping back to the budget, nice to see Sunak confirming yesterday that Johnson's £350m per week was always a lie

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/budget-rushi-sunak-treasury-figures-brexit-dividend-a9395476.html

So how much is it then?

It's like that annoying fucker at a quiz that keeps on saying every team members answer is wrong without contributing...how fucking much is paid!?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, March 13, 2020, 08:11:24
Blimp! Haven't seen/heard it used in that context for a good while. Bon travail!

Don’t know where that came from. I’ve been out of the circuit too long to be down with the kids.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 13, 2020, 09:04:10
So how much is it then?

It's like that annoying fucker at a quiz that keeps on saying every team members answer is wrong without contributing...how fucking much is paid!?
All you have to do is read the article. That's why there's a link


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, March 14, 2020, 17:45:46
That hat.  And those stupid f***ing 'USA' lapel badges.  Are they in case he forgets where he's from?

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2020/3/14/08b7c4b4-4874-4d18-8d02-69e6968b6d4e.jpg)

Give it a few months and Johnson will be there with his own, 'UK' slapped across his forehead.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Saturday, March 14, 2020, 17:53:28
Apparently it has ‘trump’ on the back of the hat. What an absolute child that man is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, March 14, 2020, 17:56:38
That's an insult to children everywhere. As to Johnson, all the hats he owns say 'Russia' on them  :soapy tit wank:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, March 14, 2020, 22:50:50
That's an insult to children everywhere. As to Johnson, all the hats he owns say 'Russia' on them  :soapy tit wank:
Preceded by "Property of"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, March 15, 2020, 01:01:53
Indeed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BoA Vagabond on Sunday, March 15, 2020, 13:12:28
Does Britain still have a Home Secretary? Self-isolating maybe?  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, March 15, 2020, 13:20:37
That's what happens after they make a nob of themselves.  Dom tells them to stay out of the limelight for a while until everyone forgets.  She'll have had a chat with Rees-Mogg, no doubt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 17, 2020, 08:53:52
Not the most measured response....

(https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/89926933_3126155064110211_4729839898725449728_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=YIXKuW3b4_0AX_3sUDV&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-1.fna&oh=8791d7736fe5c21bc4ed32202926d876&oe=5E95D30B)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 17, 2020, 08:55:52
Does Britain still have a Home Secretary? Self-isolating maybe?  :hmmm:

I assume its her turn to hide in the fridge?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, March 17, 2020, 12:00:13
I voted for Starmer for the Labour leadership contest in the end. Couldn't spoil an online vote and think he'll get the easiest ride from the media going forwards.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 17, 2020, 16:39:28
Live in the Commons

Emily Thornberry 'why there are 60 UK citizens stranded in Lima'

Dominic Raab 'We are working very hard to repatriate any UK citizen stranded in the Philippines'

Emily Thornberry 'Lima is in Peru'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 17, 2020, 17:46:35
Live in the Commons

Emily Thornberry 'why there are 60 UK citizens stranded in Lima'

Dominic Raab 'We are working very hard to repatriate any UK citizen stranded in the Philippines'

Emily Thornberry 'Lima is in Peru'
FFS, just what we need at a time of global crisis, a govt of idiots without the most basic mastery of their brief. My kids know Lima's the capital of Peru.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, March 17, 2020, 19:00:28
And your kids probably knew Dover - Calais was an important trade route.

Sadly, that will already be enough to disqualify them from any great Office of State.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 17, 2020, 19:24:37
And your kids probably knew Dover - Calais was an important trade route.

Sadly, that will already be enough to disqualify them from any great Office of State.
That's probably not a bad thing tbh


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 19, 2020, 12:13:00
Tory backbenches in revolt over govt's "inadequate" response to Coronavirus. Even hard right diehards like Iain Duncan Smith, the architect of the current benefits system, is saying benefits have to be increased immediately and waiting times for UC cut immediately as more and more people are going to lose their jobs or get reduced/zero hours. Tobias Ellwood says govt must step in and pay workers' wages. Extraordinary.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BoA Vagabond on Thursday, March 19, 2020, 16:27:08
Tory backbenches in revolt over govt's "inadequate" response to Coronavirus. Even hard right diehards like Iain Duncan Smith, the architect of the current benefits system, is saying benefits have to be increased immediately and waiting times for UC cut immediately as more and more people are going to lose their jobs or get reduced/zero hours. Tobias Ellwood says govt must step in and pay workers' wages. Extraordinary.



Well if they are serious they could start by reinstating unfit to work benefits that they are currently purging. Out of the blue cancelling and then the ill have to prove that they are unfit before payments will resume. No notice and on-going now. I wrote a letter of support yesterday for a family member who is currently going through this despite being assessed by many doctors, many times, as unfit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, March 22, 2020, 17:44:06
What. A. Cunt.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/et-toi-papa-boris-johnsons-dad-seeks-to-become-a-french-citizen-vnvtjbmz0


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, March 23, 2020, 21:28:36
Had a strong feeling the sweaty sock would be acquitted of the trumped up charges.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Monday, March 23, 2020, 22:58:58
Had a strong feeling the sweaty sock would be acquitted of the trumped up charges.
Presumably, those feelings were based on a detailed and forensic review of the evidence?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Exiled Bob on Monday, March 23, 2020, 23:08:18
What. A. Cunt.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/et-toi-papa-boris-johnsons-dad-seeks-to-become-a-french-citizen-vnvtjbmz0
He voted Remain in the referendum. He may well be a cunt, but not for that. His son is a bigger one.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, March 24, 2020, 07:21:02
Presumably, those feelings were based on a detailed and forensic review of the evidence?

No. They were based on listening to news, reading papers. And on his successful prosecution of the Scottish Parliament against internal allegations that the courts found unlawful. Which they were fined £500,000 for, Smart arse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, March 24, 2020, 10:24:12
Glad to see you supporting the independence of the Scottish Judiciary at the expense of the Scottish Executive.

Many of your ilk were rather less supportive of its independence when it found Boris' prorogation of Parliament unlawful, even after its finding was vindicated by the UK's Supreme Court.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Tuesday, March 24, 2020, 10:32:00
Glad to see you supporting the independence of the Scottish Judiciary at the expense of the Scottish Executive.

Many of your ilk were rather less supportive of its independence when it found Boris' prorogation of Parliament unlawful, even after its finding was vindicated by the UK's Supreme Court.
Smart arse ...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, March 24, 2020, 15:10:24
Smart arse ...

If you read my original post, it states I had a feeling. So what were you trying to prove! Bloody child.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, March 24, 2020, 15:12:22
Can I join in?

Self-confessed player of the pink oboe.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, March 24, 2020, 15:13:26
Can I join in?

Self-confessed player of the pink oboe.

You can fuck of too 😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 27, 2020, 16:15:56
What an absolute fucking bellend

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52048213


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Friday, March 27, 2020, 17:02:49
What an absolute fucking bellend

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52048213

How long does Corbyn have left as leader of the opposition!?

(https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-10-2019/e7eo-x.gif)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, March 27, 2020, 17:06:49
he's being a bit of an irritating klingon now isn't he?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 27, 2020, 17:13:01
How long does Corbyn have left as leader of the opposition!?
I think he's going to continue to demonstrate his utter unfitness to be leader of the opposition or PM until April 4th IIRC


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, March 27, 2020, 19:29:34
What an absolute fucking bellend

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52048213

Needless to say, I had the last laugh.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 3, 2020, 09:18:09
The utter hypocrisy of Farage's fellow "Bad Boy of Brexit" Arron Banks trying to use European law to get out of a tax bill for money he siphoned into UKIP. Failed thankfully, the loathsome hypocrite

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/02/arron-banks-fails-to-use-european-laws-to-avoid-paying-162000-tax-bill


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Friday, April 3, 2020, 12:06:07
Can I join in?

Self-confessed player of the pink oboe.
Swindon & Wiltshire Pride 2020 cancelled. Parts of its modus operandi is to stop language like that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 3, 2020, 13:43:47
Swindon & Wiltshire Pride 2020 cancelled. Parts of its modus operandi is to stop language like that.
No it's not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, April 3, 2020, 13:49:36
Swindon & Wiltshire Pride 2020 cancelled. Parts of its modus operandi is to stop language like that.
You can blame Peter Cook for that - Secret Policeman’s Ball. Skit on the Jeremy Thorpe ‘murder’ case.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, April 12, 2020, 08:16:11
Worth a few minutes of your time.
https://dorseteye.com/report-in-to-antisemitism-in-labour-party-concludes-that-jeremy-corbyn-and-senior-leadership-were-stitched-up/?fbclid=IwAR3SBilxJaRx1qZmgm5O3As0cAKuYoF4g0VbM_PuKm5tHfTCNqGVRS1Zn2s


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Sunday, April 12, 2020, 08:29:55
You can blame Peter Cook for that - Secret Policeman’s Ball. Skit on the Jeremy Thorpe ‘murder’ case.
Don't go walking the dog on Exmoor.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, April 15, 2020, 09:58:56
Bloody foreigners coming over here taking British jobs ..... that the British aren't actually prepared to do. 180 Romanians being flown in to pick fruit and veg because otherwise crops would be left to rot in fields

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-pickers-flown-in-to-plug-farmwork-gap-vvglpxks2


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Friday, April 24, 2020, 06:13:23
Swindon Borough Council becomes the first top-tier authority in the country to hold a virtual cabinet meeting. Ten times public logged in to view compared to attending a physical meeting. Might be interesting when any CG matters are debated.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 24, 2020, 07:54:18
Swindon Borough Council becomes the first top-tier authority in the country to hold a virtual cabinet meeting. Ten times public logged in to view compared to attending a physical meeting. Might be interesting when any CG matters are debated.

Any porn problems?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 24, 2020, 08:36:36
Any porn problems?
No they were still able to access loads of porn during the meeting, no problem :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Simon Pieman on Friday, April 24, 2020, 09:00:28
Bloody foreigners coming over here taking British jobs ..... that the British aren't actually prepared to do. 180 Romanians being flown in to pick fruit and veg because otherwise crops would be left to rot in fields

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-pickers-flown-in-to-plug-farmwork-gap-vvglpxks2

Yet on the flip side

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/apr/20/just-not-true-were-too-lazy-for-farm-work-say-frustrated-uk-applicants


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 24, 2020, 09:27:32
Yet on the flip side

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/apr/20/just-not-true-were-too-lazy-for-farm-work-say-frustrated-uk-applicants

'We are not looking for special treatment'......  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 24, 2020, 14:24:08
Friday Quiz

Which present siting MP proposed marriage to slightly batty Louise Mensch (née Bagshawe) but got turned down.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Friday, April 24, 2020, 14:38:55
"Slightly batty" Isn't she the one who moved to america, tried to set up an alt-right version of twitter and then it turned out the guy she was setting it upwith was a peado or something?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 24, 2020, 14:43:28
"Slightly batty" Isn't she the one who moved to america, tried to set up an alt-right version of twitter and then it turned out the guy she was setting it upwith was a peado or something?


I was trying to be polite, she is married to Metallica's manager which makes the identity of her previous suitor even more amusing!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mr Stevens on Friday, April 24, 2020, 16:03:19
If I heard it right, Shapps has proposed a trilateral agreement with Ireland and France to ease the passage of goods in and out of the country.

What a good idea. Perhaps, when all this is over, we should make that deal a bit more permanent. If only I could come up with a name for it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Friday, April 24, 2020, 16:29:54
Fucking Hell - if you heard right this is beyond anything the greatest satirist could come up with


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Friday, April 24, 2020, 17:20:28
If I heard it right, Shapps has proposed a trilateral agreement with Ireland and France to ease the passage of goods in and out of the country.

What a good idea. Perhaps, when all this is over, we should make that deal a bit more permanent. If only I could come up with a name for it.

As long as the end game isn't political union.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, April 24, 2020, 18:16:15
Friday Quiz

Which present siting MP proposed marriage to slightly batty Louise Mensch (née Bagshawe) but got turned down.

Jacob Rees-Mogg?   :eek:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, April 25, 2020, 12:34:37
Fuck me, gets to something in life when the St. Socialists are at it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2061006/Shamed-peer-Baroness-Uddin-allowed-House-Lords.html?ito=facebook_share_article-top


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 27, 2020, 09:17:12
Jacob Rees-Mogg?   :eek:

Indeed!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Richie Wellen-Dowd on Wednesday, April 29, 2020, 09:01:05
Boris drops out of PMQs, apparently because his partner has just given birth. Any excuse to blame Labour!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 29, 2020, 09:09:45
Whatever your political home, congrats to Alex and Carrie and their new bairn, as she was due 'early summer' the baby was born very early so fingers crossed they are both fine.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, April 29, 2020, 09:16:28
Boris drops out of PMQs, apparently because his partner has just given birth. Any excuse to blame Labour!
:D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Wednesday, April 29, 2020, 12:27:37
I wonder if the Prime Minister will use his right to parental leave.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, April 29, 2020, 16:18:28
I wonder if the Prime Minister will use his right to parental leave.

Why do you wonder?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Wednesday, April 29, 2020, 18:01:06
I wonder if the Prime Minister will use his right to parental leave.

He's delaying it until later in the year.

Wedding when we hit 100k deaths though?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, May 1, 2020, 08:21:18
Quite like the look of this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/08/amsterdam-doughnut-model-mend-post-coronavirus-economy

No doubt most places will take the full on growth approach to economic recovery with maybe climate change and the environment taking a back seat for a while.

Will the opportunity for change be taken or will it be same old, same old.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 1, 2020, 08:28:28
Quite like the look of this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/08/amsterdam-doughnut-model-mend-post-coronavirus-economy

No doubt most places will take the full on growth approach to economic recovery with maybe climate change and the environment taking a back seat for a while.

Will the opportunity for change be taken or will it be same old, same old.


I know that a fair few countries (Milan being the most prominent example) are looking at ways to improve public transport and cycleways infrastructure post lockdown as the quiet has allowed things to be analysed better, likewise Manchester are pedestrianising part of Deansgate of the back of this.

If we just fall back into same old same old it will just prove how dense we as a race are.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 1, 2020, 08:52:37
I know that a fair few countries (Milan being the most prominent example) are looking at ways to improve public transport and cycleways infrastructure post lockdown as the quiet has allowed things to be analysed better, likewise Manchester are pedestrianising part of Deansgate of the back of this.

If we just fall back into same old same old it will just prove how dense we as a race are.
Species?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 1, 2020, 09:23:48
Species?

I was referring to the 'human race' but species does it equally well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Friday, May 1, 2020, 12:17:04
Happy 1st May. Great to see the Gov is talking to the major unions in each sector about how to open up businesses again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Saturday, May 2, 2020, 06:14:33
Haven’t checked the veracity of this but I saw on Twitter someone point out that the day Carrie Symonds gave birth was 40 weeks after Johnson’s first speech as PM.   :cupid:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, May 2, 2020, 06:29:09
Probably got Gove to do it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, May 4, 2020, 09:07:11
After Gove's equally repllent wife tweeted a photo of their bookcase with lots of dictator fan books, she's now posted another with books including the Bell Curve, a notorious and long discredited racist tome which argues that blacks are intellectually inferior to whites, and the work of holocaust denier David Irving. Lovely couple

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXHrNKCWsAAJzKB?format=jpg&name=small)

Small wonder that this govt thought it would be fine to employ eugenicists. Or that the coronavirus strategy was to let it sweep through the "herd" and so what if a few thousand pensioners died.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 4, 2020, 10:14:19
After Gove's equally repllent wife tweeted a photo of their bookcase with lots of dictator fan books, she's now posted another with books including the Bell Curve, a notorious and long discredited racist tome which argues that blacks are intellectually inferior to whites, and the work of holocaust denier David Irving. Lovely couple

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXHrNKCWsAAJzKB?format=jpg&name=small)

Small wonder that this govt thought it would be fine to employ eugenicists. Or that the coronavirus strategy was to let it sweep through the "herd" and so what if a few thousand pensioners died.

They've got too much money, nobody normal has that many hard backs!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, May 4, 2020, 10:26:41
They've got too much money, nobody normal has that many hard backs!
Erm, I think I might actually .... although a fair few of them are books that didn't have a paperback edition.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, May 4, 2020, 10:28:41
After Gove's equally repllent wife tweeted a photo of their bookcase with lots of dictator fan books, she's now posted another with books including the Bell Curve, a notorious and long discredited racist tome which argues that blacks are intellectually inferior to whites, and the work of holocaust denier David Irving. Lovely couple

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXHrNKCWsAAJzKB?format=jpg&name=small)

Small wonder that this govt thought it would be fine to employ eugenicists. Or that the coronavirus strategy was to let it sweep through the "herd" and so what if a few thousand pensioners died.

Dog whistles?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Monday, May 4, 2020, 10:28:53
After Gove's equally repllent wife tweeted a photo of their bookcase with lots of dictator fan books, she's now posted another with books including the Bell Curve, a notorious and long discredited racist tome which argues that blacks are intellectually inferior to whites, and the work of holocaust denier David Irving. Lovely couple

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXHrNKCWsAAJzKB?format=jpg&name=small)

Small wonder that this govt thought it would be fine to employ eugenicists. Or that the coronavirus strategy was to let it sweep through the "herd" and so what if a few thousand pensioners died.

Whilst I think Gove is odious, despise his politics and his wife seems like someone who would be very difficult to like, I don't think owning/reading a book equates to agreeing or endorsing its contents.  Sometimes it's important to read things you vehemently disagree with, just to understand them.

Not quite the same but I regularly read the Daily Mail comments section.  I find most of the comments depressing and abhorrent and think the people that write what they write are some of the worst types of people.  But it's important to know those views are out there (en masse) as its only then that you have any chance of figuring out why people think like that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, May 4, 2020, 10:47:59
Whilst I think Gove is odious, despise his politics and his wife seems like someone who would be very difficult to like, I don't think owning/reading a book equates to agreeing or endorsing its contents.  Sometimes it's important to read things you vehemently disagree with, just to understand them.

Not quite the same but I regularly read the Daily Mail comments section.  I find most of the comments depressing and abhorrent and think the people that write what they write are some of the worst types of people.  But it's important to know those views are out there (en masse) as its only then that you have any chance of figuring out why people think like that.
Completely agree, but the Bell Curve isn't a serious work that needs repudiating, it's just racist nonsense. And it's not like the Goves need to be made aware of pseudo-intellectual justifications for racism, given she works for the Mail and he works for eugenicists. Likewise David Irving isn't a serious historian, he's an apologist for the Holocaust. These are both just pseudo-intellectual excusers of extreme racist views, the Bell Curve white supremacist, Irving anti-semitic


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, May 4, 2020, 10:53:11
Bloody hell, turns out ministers do still resign when they abuse their position, thought that went out of fashion last century

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52531078


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 4, 2020, 11:06:14
Whilst I think Gove is odious, despise his politics and his wife seems like someone who would be very difficult to like, I don't think owning/reading a book equates to agreeing or endorsing its contents.  Sometimes it's important to read things you vehemently disagree with, just to understand them.

Not quite the same but I regularly read the Daily Mail comments section.  I find most of the comments depressing and abhorrent and think the people that write what they write are some of the worst types of people.  But it's important to know those views are out there (en masse) as its only then that you have any chance of figuring out why people think like that.

The other picture is as good, its almost like they have a thing for short arsed dictators!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXINBdeU0AAP3XS?format=jpg&name=large)

FWIW a lot depends on the context in which you purchased the piece. As a history student, I have a copy of Mein Kampft knocking around somewhere in the attic as we studied that as a background source, however I would not display it on a bookshelf if I ever found it again, likewise on the bookshelf next to me now I have works by Orwell and Engels and a biography of Moseley.

However to take that photo she is either very dim, or just showing off her credentials as a kind of fortnum and mason Hatey Cockpins.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Monday, May 4, 2020, 13:02:21
All done for attention and the creation of some false victimhood. Almost wondering if Vine is somehow more odious than her husband.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 4, 2020, 13:23:09
All done for attention and the creation of some false victimhood. Almost wondering if Vine is somehow more odious than her husband.

Oh she is the power behind him, she is the link to Murdoch from which he achieves his influence!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 4, 2020, 14:20:49
So...

Wilfred Lawrie Nicholas Johnson

Will, Law, Nick, Johnson?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, May 7, 2020, 11:36:37
Starmer was very impressive in PMQ's yesterday. Boris not so impressive without his moronic bunch of braying cretins there to aid him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 8, 2020, 08:37:17
So apparently Stanley Johnson was on Good Morning Britain and said this:

"“I actually broke the lockdown rule … but I went, I said ‘there’s bound to be something in the papers’ and went across to the garage … I said ‘I know I’m not really meant to be out buying a newspaper I’m not sure it’s an essential journey but I just think there’s something in the paper today about my 14th grandchild’.”

Rachel Johnson has 3 children, Jo Johnson has 2. So Alexander de Pfeffel would appear to have 9 kids. And the gall to write columns castigating single parents for being "feckless".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 8, 2020, 09:35:24
were they going to st Ives?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Friday, May 8, 2020, 10:43:45
So apparently Stanley Johnson was on Good Morning Britain and said this:

"“I actually broke the lockdown rule … but I went, I said ‘there’s bound to be something in the papers’ and went across to the garage … I said ‘I know I’m not really meant to be out buying a newspaper I’m not sure it’s an essential journey but I just think there’s something in the paper today about my 14th grandchild’.”

Rachel Johnson has 3 children, Jo Johnson has 2. So Alexander de Pfeffel would appear to have 9 kids. And the gall to write columns castigating single parents for being "feckless".


Stanley has been married twice and had 6 kids though, not 3.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Friday, May 8, 2020, 10:54:26
Yeah, get your facts right


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, May 8, 2020, 11:08:29
(https://i.imgur.com/Ty8p8bM.png)

Apparently he was only asking because he wanted to bring his kids out once the cameras had gone.*

*Edit. The cameraman has since confirmed this, and there's actually film of Starmer politley asking for this reason.

That won't stop the likes of the Daily Mail lying about it, and it won't stop their readers from lapping it up. Hopefully he is able to deal with it better than Corbyn was.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 8, 2020, 11:12:43
Stanley has been married twice and had 6 kids though, not 3.
Ah, hadn't thought of that. Thanks. As you were.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Friday, May 8, 2020, 12:51:29
Was that retraction buried on page 26


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, May 11, 2020, 10:42:02
Is Boris Johnson the laziest, most cowardly Prime Minister we've ever had?

"Astonishingly this afternoon’s session will mark the first time Johnson has even made a statement in the Commons on coronavirus, and only the second time he has turned up to make a statement on anything at all since this year. We’re also still waiting for his first appearance before the Commons liaison committee, eight and a half months into his premiership. More pressingly the PM has refused to give a press conference or a media interview for the past 11 days, and has managed just one presser since March 25, having been off sick for much of April. Aides say he will only take pre-recorded questions from the public tonight"

https://www.politico.eu/newsletter/london-playbook/politico-london-playbook-unlocking-down-you-lead-i-furlough-daves-chicken-run/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Monday, May 11, 2020, 10:53:07
Is Boris Johnson the laziest, most cowardly Prime Minister we've ever had?
I cannot say for certain by any means but for me he is up there, hes certainly the least truthful one we have had in many many years and I happily include Tony Blair in that.

Yes its a fucking difficult situation for any leader to be in but he eagerly signed up for the job and seems like he wants to play at being Winston Churhill, in fact hes like a Poundland Churchill.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, May 11, 2020, 10:58:23
I cannot say for certain by any means but for me he is up there, hes certainly the least truthful one we have had in many many years and I happily include Tony Blair in that.

Yes its a fucking difficult situation for any leader to be in but he eagerly signed up for the job and seems like he wants to play at being Winston Churhill, in fact hes like a Poundland Churchill.
More like a Poundland Chamberlain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Monday, May 11, 2020, 11:14:20
Is Dominic Raab the thickest fucker on the planet?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, May 11, 2020, 12:05:09
Not saying that this is her primary aim/motiovation, but Nicola Sturgeon is doing an excellent job of recasting Johnson as the Prime Minister of England.  Explicitly over-ruling UK govt policy.

I don't blame her for one second, by the way.  UK govt policy is unravelling, so not unreasonable that she's stepped in to provide coherent guidance for her patch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Monday, May 11, 2020, 12:16:36
Andy Burnham, dickhead mayor of Manchester, says he needs funding to run public transport with physical distancing. You hadn't thought of that and planned?
What advice did the trades' unions give to the latest Gov advice? They have been fully consulted for weeks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, May 11, 2020, 12:25:36
I'd be stunned if Councils of all Political persuasions are not going cap in hand to the Govt. soon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Monday, May 11, 2020, 12:45:59
Is Dominic Raab the thickest fucker on the planet?

Nope the health bloke is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Monday, May 11, 2020, 12:58:50
I'd be stunned if Councils of all Political persuasions are not going cap in hand to the Govt. soon.

Car parking income down, leisure facility income down, business rates income down, public transport income down, investment income down
Council tax income projected to go down as and when unemployment goes up
Cost of caring/protecting vulnerable people way up

Whilst the government have provided additional money, that probably won’t continue. Bear in mind most councils sold off many of their assets during the 10 years of cuts.

I’d expect more Councils, especially smaller unitaries like Swindon, to teeter on the edge of effective bankruptcy.
Appreciate some may think that’s a good thing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, May 11, 2020, 13:22:52
Nope the health bloke is.
Even Hancock's going to have to go it some to better the absolute shitshower Raab left behind him this morning:

https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/11/dominic-raabs-three-lockdown-interviews-which-sparked-confusion-12684695/

But I expect him to put up some strong competition


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Monday, May 11, 2020, 13:33:05
Car parking income down, leisure facility income down, business rates income down, public transport income down, investment income down
Council tax income projected to go down as and when unemployment goes up
Cost of caring/protecting vulnerable people way up

Whilst the government have provided additional money, that probably won’t continue. Bear in mind most councils sold off many of their assets during the 10 years of cuts.

I’d expect more Councils, especially smaller unitaries like Swindon, to teeter on the edge of effective bankruptcy.
Appreciate some may think that’s a good thing.
So a further incentive for SBC to sell the CG.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 11, 2020, 14:45:42
I'd be stunned if Councils of all Political persuasions are not going cap in hand to the Govt. soon.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/liverpool-facing-bankruptcy-after-governments-18173747



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Monday, May 11, 2020, 16:11:10
Increased Council tax then


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 12, 2020, 14:52:39
According to YouGov things are not as rosy for Johnson as some would have you believe.

Starmer now has a higher net leadership rating than Johnson

Starmer +23
Johnson +22

Starmer's ratings have considerably improved, while Johnson's declined by 18 points.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, May 12, 2020, 15:43:03
According to YouGov things are not as rosy for Johnson as some would have you believe.

Starmer now has a higher net leadership rating than Johnson

Starmer +23
Johnson +22

Starmer's ratings have considerably improved, while Johnson's declined by 18 points.
And that's just on the 1922 committee!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, May 12, 2020, 15:50:22
According to YouGov things are not as rosy for Johnson as some would have you believe.

Starmer now has a higher net leadership rating than Johnson

Starmer +23
Johnson +22

Starmer's ratings have considerably improved, while Johnson's declined by 18 points.
Bit pointless as it’s 5 years to the next election


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, May 12, 2020, 15:57:02
Bit pointless as it’s 5 years to the next election
Really? We've had 3 in the past 5 years


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 11:42:41
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/12/civic-duty-prime-minister-boris-johnson-coronavirus


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 12:01:20
Really? We've had 3 in the past 5 years

Be a sad day if the public voted on leader likeability rather than party manifesto.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 12:05:50
Be a sad day if the public voted on leader likeability rather than party manifesto.

They did in 2019, not commenting on the Labour manifesto but the Tories one was basically the back of an envelope.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 12:13:53
Be a sad day if the public voted on leader likeability rather than party manifesto.

But didn't that more or less happen in the last election? Many people would have voted for Labour based on their manifesto but wouldn't because they didn't like Corbyn. Surely leader likeability is pretty much part and parcel of who you decided to vote for?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 12:18:48
I see Starmer has written to Johnson post PMQ's asking him to clarify one of the whoppers he told.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 12:20:30
They did in 2019, not commenting on the Labour manifesto but the Tories one was basically the back of an envelope.

It was for both reasons in 2019! Easiest decision in years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 12:28:08
Be a sad day if the public voted on leader likeability rather than party manifesto.
That's been happening for years, our elections have become increasingly presidential since the 70s.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 12:29:56
2019 was more than just about the leaders, convincing result.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 12:30:36
It was for both reasons in 2019! Easiest decision in years.

Haven't you just essentially immediately contradicted your post?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 12:34:06
2019 was more than just about the leaders, convincing result.
Which parts of the Tory manifesto, which I assume you read when making your choice on policy rather than leader, convinced you to vote for them?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 12:41:47
Which parts of the Tory manifesto, which I assume you read when making your choice on policy rather than leader, convinced you to vote for them?
The one that didn't say "Home Secretary Abbott".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 12:44:41
Haven't you just essentially immediately contradicted your post?

No


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 12:49:00
Which parts of the Tory manifesto, which I assume you read when making your choice on policy rather than leader, convinced you to vote for them?

You're assuming I voted. According to Horlock there wasn't much to read. Why did labour lose so many votes in their traditional heartlands? Perhaps that's more down to Labour not getting it right?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 12:53:37
Labour are a mess of a party - which they will always be because they pander to Ideology and not Electioneering.  Blair showed them the way - he may have been contemptible to many of the party aficionado's , but he got them in and carried actual policy changes.  In modern parlance, they can't break past their Base, and rather than piss them off a little to gain the middle, they've entrenched in trying to solidify them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 12:58:00
You're assuming I voted. According to Horlock there wasn't much to read. Why did labour lose so many votes in their traditional heartlands? Perhaps that's more down to Labour not getting it right?
Labour were a fucking shambles. But you said it was the easiest choice in years, not just based on the leaders. So I assumed that you must have carefully weighed up both sets of policies in coming to that conclusion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 13:18:48
I've never been one to stick to a party blindly, like some. I like different policies from different parties. Voting choices for me usually come down to weighing up things I'm happier with. I know I'll more than likely end up disappointed afterwards though :) Labour annoyed me over Brexit, and their leader at the time. Sometimes the decision is made easier for you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 13:26:10
Labour were a fucking shambles. But you said it was the easiest choice in years, not just based on the leaders. So I assumed that you must have carefully weighed up both sets of policies in coming to that conclusion.
There were only 2 parties standing?
What would the result have been if the Brexit Party had stood in the seats it pulled of because of its non-partizan, best for the country policy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 13:30:44
I've never been one to stick to a party blindly, like some. I like different policies from different parties. Voting choices for me usually come down to weighing up things I'm happier with. I know I'll more than likely end up disappointed afterwards though :) Labour annoyed me over Brexit, and their leader at the time. Sometimes the decision is made easier for you.
Fair enough. Tbh, although I largely agree that people shd on the basis of policy not personalities at the last election it would have been quite reasonable to have just gone "I'm not voting for that dickhead, he'll be a disaster". Problem is that applies whichever way you voted


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 13:36:08
2019 was basically a Brexit vote, nothing else - didn't matter who was running and what there other manifesto policies were..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 14:07:09
Blair showed them the way - he may have been contemptible to many of the party aficionado's , but he got them in and carried actual policy changes. 

Talking of Blair, I noticed it reported the other day that more NHS and Care workers have now been killed by Covid-19 than UK military personnel in Iraq.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 15:00:27
I see Starmer has written to Johnson post PMQ's asking him to clarify one of the whoppers he told.
Crikey, easy mistake, you can’t expect the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to know stuff that happened when he was on holiday!!

Nor when he was off sick, or if it happened at a weekend, or after 1655 on a week day...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 17:25:06
It must be difficult with a new born & a hugely responsible job. Let's hope the work / life balance is maintained.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 20:41:34
^^^^^ if he can't manage it, he can step aside


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Quagmire on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 21:55:52
He wouldn’t last ten minutes under Di Canio.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 22:16:54
He wouldn’t last ten minutes under Di Canio.

This is fucking gold. Bang on the money too. Cracking post Quaggy!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 23:20:07
I see Starmer has written to Johnson post PMQ's asking him to clarify one of the whoppers he told.

Just caught up on the Johnson/Starmer part of PMQs and found the letter, good stuff:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EX5bHfHXQAIA75J?format=jpg&name=large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, May 14, 2020, 00:05:11
He wouldn’t last ten minutes under Di Canio.
Think Di Canio would find much he admired in Johnson. That's not a compliment to either of them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Thursday, May 14, 2020, 06:32:27
David Renard, leader of SBC, re-elected for a further year.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 14, 2020, 11:28:35
Its been an interesting morning...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-grooming-gangs-video-nadine-dorries-tories-far-right-a9514001.html

The score so far is one entirely deleted Twitter account (Maria Caulfield) whilst Nadine Dorries and Lucy Allan have deleted their tweets.

One wonders why they are suddenly taking such an interest in this topic when one considers what has been going on in their own party. https://twitter.com/bloggerheads/status/1260875458478051329?s=20

Background at https://twitter.com/bloggerheads/status/1198965612065820674



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, May 14, 2020, 11:51:09
Its been an interesting morning...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-grooming-gangs-video-nadine-dorries-tories-far-right-a9514001.html

The score so far is one entirely deleted Twitter account (Maria Caulfield) whilst Nadine Dorries and Lucy Allan have deleted their tweets.

One wonders why they are suddenly taking such an interest in this topic when one considers what has been going on in their own party. https://twitter.com/bloggerheads/status/1260875458478051329?s=20

Background at https://twitter.com/bloggerheads/status/1198965612065820674


One might have thought that as a Health Minister in the middle of a public health crisis, Nadine Dorries might have better things to do than browse far right social media accounts looking for smear videos on politicial opponents she can recirculate. Apparently not.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, May 14, 2020, 11:54:11
Nadine Dorries is think as mince. the true manifestation as what's wrong in politics


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, May 14, 2020, 11:54:35
I'm scratching my head here trying to remember who it was that said money spent on child abuse investigations was "spaffed up a wall"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 14, 2020, 13:07:27
One might have thought that as a Health Minister in the middle of a public health crisis, Nadine Dorries might have better things to do than browse far right social media accounts looking for smear videos on politicial opponents she can recirculate. Apparently not.

She appears to be way too busy to make an apology, as do her colleagues.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, May 14, 2020, 13:21:57
I'm surprised Laura Kuntinberg didn't tweet it as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 14, 2020, 13:58:35
I'm surprised Laura Kuntinberg didn't tweet it as well.

TBF the BBC are reporting it, albeit it got shunted off the front page very quickly?

Strange though, the headline says she is only accused, whilst the story confirms that she actually did.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52653609


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, May 14, 2020, 15:31:44
Good to see that all 3 MPs have been censured Conservative head office.  But the lack of a direct apology from any of them also indicates a lack of class.  It really wouldn't take too much to hold your hand up and say 'Sorry, I got this wrong.  Keir Starmer was saying nothing of the kind.'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 15, 2020, 12:45:19
Remember how we weren't going to let the US bend us over a table to get a trade deal and it definitely wouldn't lead to a lowering of food standards?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52653607

Next step - selling off the NHS


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 15, 2020, 12:53:02
Remember how we weren't going to let the US bend us over a table to get a trade deal and it definitely wouldn't lead to a lowering of food standards?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52653607

Next step - selling off the NHS

Yep, taking back control. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52528821

'Washington has also indicated that it wants to be able to veto the UK's ability to strike deals with "non-market economies", amid growing US tensions with China.'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 15, 2020, 12:57:47
Yep, taking back control. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52528821

'Washington has also indicated that it wants to be able to veto the UK's ability to strike deals with "non-market economies", amid growing US tensions with China.'
"All about sovereignty". We are Trump's bitch. Well done Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg you lying shysters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, May 15, 2020, 13:36:18
I can confirm that the quality of chicken over here, by and large, is awful.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 15, 2020, 14:43:58
From Ian Dunt this afternoon;

'We'd held out pretty well. The absence of culture war has been one of the few reliefs of the covid period. For once, we all wanted the same thing. The applause on Thursdays was moving partly because it offered a sense of unity. Everyone was anti-covid. Everyone admired the NHS workers who braved it.

But this week the culture war started moving back in. And that's hardly surprising, because it was the first week that the government had to make policy proposals and then sell those proposals to the public, rather than just respond to a fast-moving situation.

Unfortunately, the only way this government - which is, after all, just the Vote Leave campaign in executive form - knows how to do that is through values-based engagement with demographic segments. It's Facebook advertising as a national communications strategy.

The core phrasing was 'common sense'. This was delivered with depressing regularity in the Commons on Monday. "Good, solid, British common sense," Johnson said, over and over again, as his response to seemingly every question.

The phrase was repeated by government spokespeople wherever possible. Faced with the former chief scientific adviser to the government on Newsnight saying the end of the lockdown was coming too early, Tory MP Damian Green replied: "I have greater faith in the common sense of the British people than Sir David King does".

Common sense as a phrase is really quite entirely meaningless. Sense isn't common. In politics, different interests have to be managed - for instance those of an employer who owns a factory and the employees who work in it. Nor is intuition, which common sense often implies, a particularly reliable guide to anything. Many things in life - from physics, to biology, to national finances, to monetary policy - are profoundly counter-intuitive, because they are complex and operate at a level beyond our normal day-to-day experience.

But even if common sense did have meaning - if it translated as the autonomous reason of the individual, say - it would not describe the package of rules the government has put forward. In fact, "good, solid, British common sense" doesn't get a look in. The rules are extremely odd.

They allow a meeting with one member of a household but not two at the same time, even though these are unified bubbles in disease control strategy. They prioritise economic relationships with estate agents and cleaners over those with a loved one. You can make a case for this if you like. But it's based on economic demand, not human intuition.

No.10 could arguably have approached this another way. They could have said to the public that you can meet who you like, where you like, as long as you are two metres away at all times and outside. That might have been smart or stupid - who knows - but it would have corresponded to the messaging strategy, which stresses people's individual responsibility in making those judgements. The new rules do the precise opposite. They work on minute details and pass verdicts on them, often in quite baffling ways.

So if it isn't a reflection of the underlying strategy, what is it? That's simple. It is a communication strategy divorced from its content, almost certainly derived from extensive public research, of the type which typifies the Vote Leave government under Dominic Cummings.

No.10 has polled nearly every aspect of public opinion during covid, on a nearly daily basis, with messaging subject to focus group assessments. "The internal polling is pretty extensive every day," an official told Politico. "We get an overnight breakdown of surveys of 2,000 adults. We get stats on how worried people are, people's perceptions of risk, whether they feel they're being served by government information, whether we've got the balance right between the economy and healthcare, polling on people's finances, thoughts on the NHS, about social distancing, businesses, workplace, face masks."
Common sense has a specific set of cultural attributes attached to it. People like to think they have it and they hate being told that they do not. It implies very strongly that the right solution is easy, not complex. It maps almost directly onto the demographic groups the government weaponised so effectively over the Brexit debate. It is a shorthand for rejection of expertise, for an insistence that instinct and unearned confidence trump research and understanding.

That fundamentally populist appeal took centre stage in the government response this week. And it was telling that once it did, all the old ways of doing things under the Brexit debate quickly reasserted itself.

First of all came the basic incompetence - a prime ministerial statement on Sunday night telling people to go back to work, followed by an insistence the next day that it was only supposed to apply on Wednesday. Then came the outright lying, with Johnson insisting that Keir Starmer's description of the government health advice to care homes "wasn't true" despite the fact that it demonstrably was. Then the bullying tone-deaf stubbornness, with a refusal to acknowledge the lie, even when it was shown in black and white, and the insistence that the opposition should not criticise the government because "the public expect us to work together".

It's the same old ugly habits coming back once again. They don't know any other way of doing things. And as the stakes become higher they are likely to double-down on it, instinctively looking for the opportunity to sell their programme on the basis of cultural dividing lines. Right now, those who question them simply lack common sense. Soon, they will be actively working against the country by trying to kill off the economy, or needlessly scaring people.

The way to counter it is to ensure the debate stays within the realm of reason and evidence. We saw what happened when it didn't during Brexit. We can't let it happen here.'



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mr Stevens on Sunday, May 17, 2020, 21:50:56
I've just watched Becoming, the Michelle Obama documentary on Netflix. The sooner that woman stands for President, the better. The difference between her family and the current cunt in the White House is chalk and cheese. An outstanding woman.

Incidentally, Fox TV were awful 12 years ago.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 18, 2020, 09:17:10
So Keir Starmer bought has disabled mum a field to house some rescued Donkeys.

What a bastard!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, May 18, 2020, 09:23:04
So Keir Starmer bought has disabled mum a field to house some rescued Donkeys.

What a bastard!
But what are the piss stains going to do with no players?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, May 18, 2020, 18:04:46
Nice to see that the heroes who protect us in wartime and who've helped protect us from Covid19 are still going to be charged for access to the NHS and denied entry to the UK because they're "unskilled"

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/may/18/british-army-veteran-faces-27000-nhs-hospital-bill

This is absolutely fucking appalling


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, May 19, 2020, 06:51:17
come on Paul, he's got a brown face. it's only fair


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, May 19, 2020, 18:50:32
Regardless of political persuasion, I doubt very many people in the UK would begrudge members of the Armed Services from being given indefinite leave to reside and work in the UK, including all the benefits that entails.  Very different from people who seek to live/work in the UK.  I have to pay to access the NHS as I have chosen to live in another Country, and that is fair enough.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Monday, May 25, 2020, 09:10:46
On 28th April, it was announced that IDOX had been awarded the contract to run the booking system for coronavirus testing. This contract did not go out to tender.

In the attachment, have a look at who is one of the Directors. Such a coincidence


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 09:43:11
Thought I would post this here so as not to upset sensitive folks on Coronavirus thread if this deemed to not be Covid relevant  :D.

From Twitter - a pretty good summary:

The week in Tory (Cummings special):

1. Dominic Cummings, one of the few men to have ever been found in contempt of Parliament, moved onto contempt for everything
2. When the story broke, and he was accused of doing things that look bad, he said he didn't care how things looked
3. Then ministers said press outrage meant nothing, only the opinion of the people mattered
4. Then polls showed 52% of people wanted Cummings to resign
5. So Cummings decided to show the public some respect, by turning up 30 minutes late to make his explanation
6. He began by saying he wasn't speaking for the govt, which must be why he was in the Rose Garden of 10 Downing Street
7. Then the self-styled "enemy of the Islington media elite" said his wife, who works in the media, had been ill in their house in Islington
8. But she was only a bit ill, so he popped home, got himself nice and infected, then went back to Downing Street for meetings with lots of vitally important people in the middle of a national crisis
9. But then he got ill too, so then it was suddenly important
10. Sadly he couldn't get childcare in London, even though 3 immediate relatives live within 3 miles of his London home
11. So because he was carrying a virus that can cross a 2 metre distance and kill, he immediately locked himself in a car with his wife and child for 5 hours
12. He then drove 264 miles without stopping in a Land Rover that gets maybe 25 MPG
13. Then the scourge of the metropolitan elites made himself extra-relatable by describing his family's sprawling country estate, multiple houses and idyllic woodlands
14. He explained that he'd warned about a coronavirus years ago in his blog
15. Then it was revealed he actually secretly amended old blogs after he'd returned from Durham
16. And anyway, if he'd warned years ago, why was he so massively unprepared and slow to react?
17. Then he said he was too ill to move for a week
18. But in the middle of that week, presumably with "wonky eyes", he drove his child to hospital
19. Then he said that to test his "wonky eyes" he put his wife and child in a car and drove 30 miles on public roads
20. Then it was revealed his wife drives, so there was no reason for the "eye test", cos she could have driven them back to London
21. Then it was revealed the "eye test" trip to a local tourist spot took place on his wife's birthday
22. Then cameras filmed as he threw a cup onto the table, smirked and left
23. And then it emerged his wife had written an article during the time in Dunham, describing their experience of being in lockdown in London, which you'd definitely do if you weren't hiding anything
24. A govt scientific advisor said "more people will die" as a result of what Cummings had done.
25. Boris Johnson said he "wouldn't mark Cummings " down for what he'd done.
26. The Attorney General said it was ok to break the law if you were acting on instinct
27. The Health Minister said it was OK to endanger public health if you meant well
28. Johnson said Cummings' "story rings true" because his own eyesight was fine before coronavirus, but now he needs glasses
29. But in an interview with The Telegraph 5 years ago, Johnson said he needed glasses cos he was "blind as a bat"
30. Michael Gove went on TV and said it was "wise" to drive 30 miles on public roads with your family in the car to test your eyesight
31. The DVLA tweeted that you should never, ever do this
32. Then ministers started claiming Cummings had to go to Durham because he feared crowds attacking his home. The streets were empty because we were observing the lockdown.
33. And then a minister finally resigned
34. Steve Baker, Richard Littlejohn, Isabel Oakeshott, Tim Montgomerie, Jan Moir, Ian Dale, Julia Hartley Brewer, 30 Tory MPs, half a dozen bishops and the actual Daily Mail said Cummings should go
35. The govt suggested we can ignore them, because they're all left-wingers
36. Then a vicar asked Matt Hancock if other people who had been fined for doing exactly what Cummings did would get their fine dropped. Matt Hancock said he'd suggest it to the govt
37. The govt said no within an hour. Cummings' statement had lasted longer than that
38. And if the guidelines were so clear, why were people being stopped and fined for driving to find childcare in the first place?
39. Then a new poll found people who wanted Cummings sacked had risen from 52% to 57%
40. Cummings is considered the smartest man in the govt
41. And in the middle of all this, in case we take our eye off it: we reached 60,000 deaths. One of the highest per capita death rates worldwide.
42. We still face Brexit under this lot.
43. It's 4 years until an election
44. And it's still only Wednesday



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 10:04:25
I noticed on Twitter that a political reporter (I cannot recall which one) had asked Starmers spokesperson who Labour were going to put up to talk to the media on behalf of Labour yesterday morning and was informed, Michael Gove.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 10:33:08
On 28th April, it was announced that IDOX had been awarded the contract to run the booking system for coronavirus testing. This contract did not go out to tender.

In the attachment, have a look at who is one of the Directors. Such a coincidence
It is, she's not related to him. There's plenty of examples of nepotism under Cummings, not least the Track and Trace App contract being handed to one of his former Vote Leave cronies (which given their history of abusing data is in itself worrying, aside from the nepotism), but this isn't one of them

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-cummings-sister/fact-check-dominic-cummings-does-not-have-a-sister-working-for-the-it-solutions-company-idox-idUSKBN2322VB


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: normy on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 10:40:21
Chunkyhair,  a very good summary from Twitter, thanks for posting it. I think it should be a keeper for future reference.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 10:46:55
Well that's clear then, the descent to banana republic status continues.

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1265573612498694147?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 11:25:20
It's becoming a daily thing now. Notice how starmer has been relatively quiet the last few days?

Perhaps he's adhering to one of the rules of competition. "Never interrupt your opponent when they are making a mistake"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 11:27:05
I was of the opinion that Starmer should be putting the boot in.  But perhaps he has more intelligence than I do and he is letting them make mistakes before delivering a proper kicking.  Who knows.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 11:31:11
I noticed on Twitter that a political reporter (I cannot recall which one) had asked Starmers spokesperson who Labour were going to put up to talk to the media on behalf of Labour yesterday morning and was informed, Michael Gove.

It's becoming a daily thing now. Notice how starmer has been relatively quiet the last few days?

Perhaps he's adhering to one of the rules of competition. "Never interrupt your opponent when they are making a mistake"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 11:56:08
https://mobile.twitter.com/PaddyMcGuinness/status/1265314862491631617


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 11:56:28
Thought this was quite good about why Johnson's cabal and the hard right money running the show behind them are so desperate to save Cummings

https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/dominic-cummings-a-cover-story-obscuring-something-far-darker/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 12:59:17
It is, she's not related to him. There's plenty of examples of nepotism under Cummings, not least the Track and Trace App contract being handed to one of his former Vote Leave cronies (which given their history of abusing data is in itself worrying, aside from the nepotism), but this isn't one of them

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-cummings-sister/fact-check-dominic-cummings-does-not-have-a-sister-working-for-the-it-solutions-company-idox-idUSKBN2322VB

Thanks Paul.  In that case I apologise to Cummings for the inference that he might have been involved in any shady dealings.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 13:14:34
Thanks Paul.  In that case I apologise to Cummings for the inference that he might have been involved in any shady dealings.
tbf, I think you can trade this one in for all the dodgy shit we haven't found out about yet


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 13:29:46
soapy tit wank @ Chunkyhair..

Actually not soapy tit wank, its true. Bugger.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 14:35:26
No idea how true this is, but an ex-Foreign Office official who still has some handy political connections apparently reckons George Eustice and Robert Buckland are two ministers putting a lot of pressure on over Cummings

"Hearing another minister has told Boris Johnson he will quit if Cummings stays.

A real ramping up of the pressure now.

@nicktolhurst
We now have (at least) two ministers:
George Eustice & Robert Buckland who have expressed their concerns “forcefully” to Nr. 10. regrading Dominc Cummings future position."

Whether that means Buckland has threatened to quit if Cummings doesn't go, who knows? I reckon Batch should write him a stiff letter :)

https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1265595287709548544


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 14:45:06
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/britain-eu-johnson-russian/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 15:20:19
As there is no PMQ's if you need a fix, Johnson is presently being skewered in the Liaison Committee.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52815845


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: brocklesby red on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 15:29:59
So he’s seen loads of evidence that the allegations against Cummings are false but he can’t say what that is, says people are scoring party political points when it’s his own Tories that seem to be giving him the hardest time, says he doesn’t look at the scientific reports, just the main points. He really is not good under any sort of pressure


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 15:34:50
"I've been forbidden from announcing any more deadlines," says the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom... Forbidden by whom he's the fucking Prime Minister!?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 15:47:52
"I've been forbidden from announcing any more deadlines," says the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom... Forbidden by whom he's the fucking Prime Minister!?
He's not, he's a sock puppet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: brocklesby red on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 16:07:34
I can see why the PM doesn’t like appearing before this committee, he can’t brush off the questions like he does with journalists, these mps won’t let him off the hook so easily and insist on some detail. He certainly is being given an easy ride from his own party members


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Private Fraser on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 16:27:42
I hope the Liaison Committee do the decent thing and find a really nice plate to hand him his ass on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: brocklesby red on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 17:26:53
I can see why the PM doesn’t like appearing before this committee, he can’t brush off the questions like he does with journalists, these mps won’t let him off the hook so easily and insist on some detail. He certainly is being given an easy ride from his own party members

Should have been ,he certainly isn’t being given an easy ride from his own party members


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 19:47:39
Should have been ,he certainly isn’t being given an easy ride from his own party members
Bernard Jenkin, the Johnson patsy they helicoptered in as committee chairman, deliberately excluded the ones they thought might give him a hard time as well. Are you sure they gave him a tough time or did he just make hard work of it? Didn't see it myself but from the sounds of it, he was floundering even on the easy stuff.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: brocklesby red on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 20:09:06
I particularly liked Greg Clark and Jeremy Hunts contribution, obviously no love lost there. Greg Clark managing to get a dig in about Cummings while asking a question about Track and tracing of people who test positive for Covid 19, will they have to stay home or could they use their judgement


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 20:27:00
Yes, all very mature.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 22:43:59
Bernard Jenkin, the Johnson patsy they helicoptered in as committee chairman, deliberately excluded the ones they thought might give him a hard time as well. Are you sure they gave him a tough time or did he just make hard work of it? Didn't see it myself but from the sounds of it, he was floundering even on the easy stuff.

You can watch it back here, just started myself:

https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/8e8e5214-346d-4be8-adf7-addfc839ff6d


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, May 28, 2020, 09:53:00
Serious question for the right of the forum - has the governments handling of the coronavirus pandemic, which has led to the highest death rate per capita in the world, led to any doubts in their ability to deliver a successful brexit that leads to a stronger Britain in the future? And why?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Thursday, May 28, 2020, 10:01:32
Serious question for the right of the forum - has the governments handling of the coronavirus pandemic, which has led to the highest death rate per capita in the world, led to any doubts in their ability to deliver a successful brexit that leads to a stronger Britain in the future? And why?
I'll answer on behalf of myself, and then facts:
No.
There were not 4 elections which resulted in the implementation of COVID-19.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, May 28, 2020, 10:03:28
What does the number of elections have to do with it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Thursday, May 28, 2020, 10:05:19
What does the number of elections have to do with it?
Speechless. Just think about what you have typed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, May 28, 2020, 10:08:48
I have. I don’t understand, could you enlighten me?

Where does the definition of success fit on a scale that goes from ‘just being out’ to ‘being out and more prosperous than before’


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 28, 2020, 10:10:14
I have. I don’t understand, could you enlighten me?

Where does the definition of success fit on a scale that goes from ‘just being out’ to ‘being out and more prosperous than before’

I think you may have broken the bot.

They won, get over it!  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, May 28, 2020, 11:20:06
I have. I don’t understand, could you enlighten me?

Where does the definition of success fit on a scale that goes from ‘just being out’ to ‘being out and more prosperous than before’

Even the Tories have stated that Brexit means an economic hit.... just argued about  numbers and length.  The government's own modelling came up with 7.7% of GDP by the mid 30's.  That is probably worst case scenario, but was before CV. Mogg reckoned it might be 50 years before the benefits of replacement trade deals were fully felt.

However, the Brexit vote wasn't about prosperity, rather more a case of wanting to end FoM and break up the Union and accepting the economic hit. The Tories are well on course to achieve this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, May 28, 2020, 11:28:35
the number of people who 'just wanted out, even if WTO terms leave us worse off" was staggeringly high in the social media I saw.

it reared again the other day at the suggestion that we could delay negotiations to deal with covid first. weird


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, May 28, 2020, 11:39:13
Serious question for the right of the forum - has the governments handling of the coronavirus pandemic, which has led to the highest death rate per capita in the world, led to any doubts in their ability to deliver a successful brexit that leads to a stronger Britain in the future? And why?
The feature of Brexit pertinent to your question would be that there was never any Brexit "plan".  The current approach has haphazardly evolved as a result of 5 years of internal power plays within the Conservative party.  Our Governments have run the gamut from Remain to US regulatory alignment, via all sorts of positions in between.

On coronavirus, the claim to merely being led by "the science" was as vague as the various guises of the Brexit plan.  It was neither wholly plausible nor openly shared.  Probably because there wasn't much to share.  Cummings' editing to show his foresight indicates perfectly a dishonest policy vacuousness.  We opened with a stab in the dark at herd immunity and developed more policies on the hoof, seemingly prompted by media probings such as Hancock's and Boris' random 100k and 200k targets.

However haphazard the journey, we now have a purged Conservative Party and a clear intent to accomodate US regulation in English law and, subject to that, to garner as much cake as possible from the EU.

Whether that will lead to a stronger Britain depends largely on your politics. I will spare you any more of mine, BD.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 28, 2020, 11:50:45
Laughing while 60oddk have died on your watch, that's a good look.

https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1265892309205430272?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, May 28, 2020, 11:56:32
you can see the sadness in his eyes though.

odd explanation on the app not being launched. 🤔


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, May 28, 2020, 15:00:32
'Hancock's Half Hour will be followed by TOTP. Featuring Oasis with Cigarettes & Alcohol...'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, May 29, 2020, 07:04:57
At least Johnson hasn’t threatened to start shooting us yet, could be worse


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, May 29, 2020, 08:08:35
What is happening in the States is frightening, the place is a powder keg. Its heartbreaking that the Police learned nothing from the incident in New York and repeated their mistakes in Minneapolis.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 29, 2020, 08:22:33
'Hancock's Half Hour will be followed by TOTP. Featuring Oasis with Cigarettes & Alcohol...'

https://twitter.com/Darren_Dutton/status/1266039559755833345?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 29, 2020, 08:23:41
What is happening in the States is frightening, the place is a powder keg. Its heartbreaking that the Police learned nothing from the incident in New York and repeated their mistakes in Minneapolis.

A powder keg being stoked vigorously by the president, one can only assume that he thinks that outright race war is going to get him over the line come November.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, May 29, 2020, 08:25:27
The killing of george Floyd was fucking shocking.

The guy is down on the ground, handcuffed, unarmed, surrounded by at least 4 armed coppers, and pleading with them that he can't breathe. I get that policing can be dangerous work and I get that there is always likely to be a degree of physicality about it, but fucking hell.

There also seems to be no appetite from those at the top to change things.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Friday, May 29, 2020, 08:27:50
There also seems to be no appetite from those at the top to change things.
And I fear with Trump in charge there will be no changes even suggested.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 29, 2020, 08:30:21
And I fear with Trump in charge there will be no changes even suggested.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZKhzCBU8AMQ4i_?format=jpg&name=large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 29, 2020, 09:09:02
A powder keg being stoked vigorously by the president, one can only assume that he thinks that outright race war is going to get him over the line come November.
It's what his base are begging for. Trump's all about delivering to his base, there's some "very good guys" there remember?

(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/media/2018/08/15/USATODAY/usatsports/usatcollege-CollegeUSAT-673822-e1de778d.jpg?width=540&quality=50)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 29, 2020, 09:09:50
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52846679


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 29, 2020, 09:13:07
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52846679
He is going all out open fascist isn't he?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 29, 2020, 09:23:41
In all this understandable talk of Trump I wouldn't want Helen Whitely's car crash of a performance on QT last night to be missed, followed the party line that people must follow the guidelines unless they don't follow the guidelines, even Fiona Bruce made her look a fool.

https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1266128813240594437?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 29, 2020, 09:54:26
In all this understandable talk of Trump I wouldn't want Helen Whitely's car crash of a performance on QT last night to be missed, followed the party line that people must follow the guidelines unless they don't follow the guidelines, even Fiona Bruce made her look a fool.

https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1266128813240594437?s=20
Saw someone yesterday describe her as educated well beyond her intelligence and promoted well above her competence. Thought that summed her up rather well. Along with most of the rest of the Cabinet, especially Johnson.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Banker on Friday, May 29, 2020, 11:16:18
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-need-to-pay-very-close-attention-to-what-is-happening-in-britain-now-1.4264046

Quote
"Other countries need to pay attention to modern Britain. What has happened is instructive. Accepting plummeting standards in media, possessing a pathological deference to posh bullies, being ignorant of one’s history, accepting inequality as some kind of natural law, celebrating buffoons, and a blithe and arrogant exceptionalism is the real downfall, not Dominic Cummings’ lies."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, May 29, 2020, 11:40:13
He is going all out open fascist isn't he?

The police just arrested a reporter - for reporting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Friday, May 29, 2020, 11:46:08
The police just arrested a reporter - for reporting.

Seen this mentioned on Twitter but been able to it reported as news - can you share a link (and before anyone says "are you doubting it" - absolutely not, I want to see the ghastly details for myself)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Friday, May 29, 2020, 11:49:25
https://twitter.com/tyson_whelan/status/1266317709186228225


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, May 29, 2020, 11:49:37
Seen this mentioned on Twitter but been able to it reported as news - can you share a link (and before anyone says "are you doubting it" - absolutely not, I want to see the ghastly details for myself)

https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/george-floyd-protest-updates-05-28-20/h_4ed08403663fa4ed3518221d0f2a1552?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twCNN&utm_content=2020-05-29T10:24:57

Other reporters there have not been arrested.

No prizes for guessing one of the differences between those that have not been arrested, and the guy that was...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 29, 2020, 11:50:10
See its being widely reported that parliament is being recalled next week.

Sounds like a good thing doesn't it, however, still only 50 people will be allowed in the chamber at any time (so meaning 600 MP's will be omitted who previously could participate in business via the online system, and basically precludes any MP in a vulnerable category from attending for the foreseeable), the online hybrid system is being discontinued and there is as yet no agreed way of voting on any matters, so they have shut down the online system without any plan or idea how to replace it.

A further decay of democracy in this banana republic.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Friday, May 29, 2020, 12:00:56
https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/george-floyd-protest-updates-05-28-20/h_4ed08403663fa4ed3518221d0f2a1552?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twCNN&utm_content=2020-05-29T10:24:57

Other reporters there have not been arrested.

No prizes for guessing one of the differences between those that have not been arrested, and the guy that was...

Thanks Flashheart.  Just incredible. Jesus Christ


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, May 29, 2020, 12:02:03
They seem to be heading in reverse  ::)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, May 29, 2020, 12:19:06
https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/george-floyd-protest-updates-05-28-20/h_4ed08403663fa4ed3518221d0f2a1552?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twCNN&utm_content=2020-05-29T10:24:57

Other reporters there have not been arrested.

No prizes for guessing one of the differences between those that have not been arrested, and the guy that was...

Plus he worked for CNN.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: brocklesby red on Friday, May 29, 2020, 12:20:38


I’m a Labour supporter but I also believe in democracy, so if the majority voted in a Conservative government then I accept that. However, is it too much to ask to at least have a competent one. Seeing her performance last night following Matt Hancock earlier must be embarrassing even to ardent Tories. The purge of decent ministers after the December election was reminiscent of momentum’s culling of Labours shadow cabinet following Jeremy Corbyn becoming leader


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 29, 2020, 12:49:16
Plus he worked for CNN.

CNN had two reporting teams operating in the area, both very spoken to by police, only one group was arrested, although to be fair to the Police they also arrested his camera crew.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 29, 2020, 12:54:03

I’m a Labour supporter but I also believe in democracy, so if the majority voted in a Conservative government then I accept that. However, is it too much to ask to at least have a competent one. Seeing her performance last night following Matt Hancock earlier must be embarrassing even to ardent Tories. The purge of decent ministers after the December election was reminiscent of momentum’s culling of Labours shadow cabinet following Jeremy Corbyn becoming leader

The thing is they are defending something which is actually not capable of credible defence using a logic that defies logic, there is no way of doing that without sounding like a twat.

All it really illustrates is that the lure of power is more important to them than personal credibility, its been made clear to the cabinet that  Cummings is way more important to their leader than they are.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 29, 2020, 13:30:34
The police just arrested a reporter - for reporting.
Now come on, that's a complete distortion of what really happened and you know it. They arrested him for being black


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, May 30, 2020, 15:20:19
I see Trump's gone for the Monty Burns vibe this morning

(https://46.media.tumblr.com/31bdbfc8c903ea7684071d678bcb6ef0/tumblr_nbrcnsFtML1rm4kdxo1_400.gif)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 1, 2020, 09:26:22
A fuel truck was driven into the protests in Minneapolis yesterday (no, it wasn't an accident, he broke through a closed road to drive at them). When that happened in Nice and in Germany, it was instantly denounced as terrorism. But this is being reported, if at all, as a footnote, along with several other targeted attacks on protests across the US, including several shootings and at least one murder. All about the lenses, isn't it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, June 1, 2020, 09:49:32
There are a fairly large number of videos online of police being overly aggressive with people. One in Salt Lake City is of a older man with a stick being pushed to the floor and another of a policeman hitting an (admittedly over aggressive) women in the face knocking her to the floor. Now caveat that I don't know that these videos are definitely from these riots but if they are the aggressive behaviour of the police suggest there is a deep deep problem with the police in the States.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, June 1, 2020, 09:52:12
There's a video of some 'restraining' protestors/looters by kneeling on their neck. A cynic might think it's deliberately provocative.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 1, 2020, 10:13:18
As a counter balance to that, there's also quite a bit of footage of police joining protestors in "taking a knee" to show their anger and disgust in various cities

https://twitter.com/femiredwood/status/1267094857237086214
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/01/some-officers-march-kneel-with-protesters-creating-dissonant-images-fraught-weekend-uprisings/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/many-police-step-out-show-support-george-floyd-demonstrators-n1220731


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, June 1, 2020, 10:23:18
I seem to remember Trump egging on armed to the teeth protesters who were against various state lockdowns. ‘Some very good people’.

Or perhaps he meant to say ‘Some very good white Republican people’


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, June 1, 2020, 10:38:24
As a counter balance to that, there's also quite a bit of footage of police joining protestors in "taking a knee" to show their anger and disgust in various cities

https://twitter.com/femiredwood/status/1267094857237086214
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/01/some-officers-march-kneel-with-protesters-creating-dissonant-images-fraught-weekend-uprisings/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/many-police-step-out-show-support-george-floyd-demonstrators-n1220731

And very important in my eyes to mention this. Not ALL cops are bastards as is being sprayed on police cars. Yes there are some bad eggs, but there are some very good ones as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 1, 2020, 10:41:29
I seem to remember Trump egging on armed to the teeth protesters who were against various state lockdowns. ‘Some very good people’.

Or perhaps he meant to say ‘Some very good white Republican people’
Indeed. Not to mention the violent neo-Nazis in Charlottesville a few years back.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 1, 2020, 10:42:24
And very important in my eyes to mention this. Not ALL cops are bastards as is being sprayed on police cars. Yes there are some bad eggs, but there are some very good ones as well.
Unfortunately at the moment the bad eggs are being egged on (as it were) by the President of the United States who seems determined to inflame the situation


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 1, 2020, 10:59:48
Also extremely worrying is the deliberate targetting of press and TV reporters by (some) violent cops; this is where the #scummedia hashtag and the like leads

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/americas/2020/05/31/us-law-enforcement-are-deliberately-targeting-journalists-during-george-floyd-protests/

And I hardly need add the deliberate targetting of the press reporting on authoritarian excesses is one of the hallmarks of a fascist state. One of the first things fascists do is attack the press and attack the judiciary, because in a democracy, no matter how imperfect, they provide the counterbalance to the executive


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Monday, June 1, 2020, 10:59:57
And very important in my eyes to mention this. Not ALL cops are bastards as is being sprayed on police cars. Yes there are some bad eggs, but there are some very good ones as well.

It’s the good ones responsibility to do more about the bad ones, and they haven’t


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 1, 2020, 11:27:03
A highlight was the video of some police arresting a black guy for looking like a suspect, then having to sheepishly uncuff him when their search of his pockets revealed he is an FBI Agent.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Monday, June 1, 2020, 11:28:35
It’s the good ones responsibility to do more about the bad ones, and they haven’t

You hear various Republicans talking about a "few bad apples" in regard to Police racism and violence.  They always misuse that saying, which actually is "One bad apple can spoil the bunch".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 1, 2020, 11:38:18
It’s the good ones responsibility to do more about the bad ones, and they haven’t
Not sure that's wholly true. The links I posted are, IMO, an example of decent cops trying to take a stand for what's right. And not sure, for example, what a decent cop in Denver can directly do to stop a bad cop in Minneapolis. On a local level, you're right, although if the problem is systemic/institutional, that's not always easy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 1, 2020, 11:43:05
A highlight was the video of some police arresting a black guy for looking like a suspect, then having to sheepishly uncuff him when their search of his pockets revealed he is an FBI Agent.
https://twitter.com/ProfCaryCooper/status/1267400584572866561


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, June 1, 2020, 13:22:20
The virtue signallers are out in force lately as well.

Apparently, if you don't agree with some peoples' definition of racism then you yourself are racist. Even if your definition does come directly from the OED - and there's does not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, June 1, 2020, 15:54:50
There's a video of some 'restraining' protestors/looters by kneeling on their neck. A cynic might think it's deliberately provocative.

Amazingly, I believe it is an approved restraining technique.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 1, 2020, 16:02:19
Amazingly, I believe it is an approved restraining technique.

Its definitely approved in Minneapolis https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/05/29/george-floyd-experts-say-neck-restraint-allowed-minneapolis-can-kill/5274334002/

Be interested to read your musings on Trump, how are his numbers looking over there, does he need to basically provoke out and out civil war to try and get himself over the line?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 1, 2020, 16:25:09
Amazingly, I believe it is an approved restraining technique.
And 44 people have lost consciousness while being restrained in this fashion by Minneapolis PD in the past 5 years. The only surpising thing about George Floyd's death is that it hasn't happened before now

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/minneapolis-police-rendered-44-people-unconscious-neck-restraints-five-years-n1220416


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Tuesday, June 2, 2020, 03:39:06
Hope its something of nothing but my daughter is seeing lots of stuff on social media about semi planned riots in London. lots of stuff about bringing fire retardant gloves, plain clothing and leaving mobiles behind threads amongst her age group (18/19)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Tuesday, June 2, 2020, 06:52:05
from the OED - and there's does not.
Dictionary definitions:

there's
contraction
\ ˈt͟herz  , t͟hərz \
Definition of there's
: there is : there has.

theirs
\ ˈt͟herz  \
Definition of theirs
1: that which belongs to them —used without a following noun as a pronoun equivalent in meaning to the adjective their


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, June 2, 2020, 06:53:55
Hope the police have seen it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 2, 2020, 07:57:41
Hope its something of nothing but my daughter is seeing lots of stuff on social media about semi planned riots in London. lots of stuff about bringing fire retardant gloves, plain clothing and leaving mobiles behind threads amongst her age group (18/19)

Riots on UK streets, Boris Johnson gone missing, lets party like its 2011!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 2, 2020, 08:04:55
Long time since we had a proper bone fide planning scandal, they are genuinely much rarer than people think.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/robert-jenrick-met-police-westferry_uk_5ed51afec5b66d911c47ecdf


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 2, 2020, 09:24:06
Surprised no-one's commented on the govt trying to force through abolishing Zoom debates and votes in the Commons to force MPs to attend instead, even though only 50 will be allowed in the chamber at a time. An out and out assault on parliamentary democracy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 2, 2020, 09:30:09
Surprised no-one's commented on the govt trying to force through abolishing Zoom debates and votes in the Commons to force MPs to attend instead, even though only 50 will be allowed in the chamber at a time. An out and out assault on parliamentary democracy.

See its being widely reported that parliament is being recalled next week.

Sounds like a good thing doesn't it, however, still only 50 people will be allowed in the chamber at any time (so meaning 600 MP's will be omitted who previously could participate in business via the online system, and basically precludes any MP in a vulnerable category from attending for the foreseeable), the online hybrid system is being discontinued and there is as yet no agreed way of voting on any matters, so they have shut down the online system without any plan or idea how to replace it.

A further decay of democracy in this banana republic.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 2, 2020, 09:34:21

Well colour me "didn't read the thread properly". Sorry horlock!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Private Fraser on Tuesday, June 2, 2020, 16:34:16
FFS !

https://twitter.com/borisjohnson_mp/status/1267854930385276928?s=21


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, June 2, 2020, 16:40:47
We're all human but £82k pa is not be the remuneration Crabb should be receiving.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Tuesday, June 2, 2020, 23:59:38
FFS !

https://twitter.com/borisjohnson_mp/status/1267854930385276928?s=21

I watched this earlier, more or less the whole of the first vote. The instructions were very simple clear ("State your name and which way you are voting") and shouted out to the MPs about every 10 seconds as they filed through.

The number who neither said their name or which they were voting, or said just their name, was huge.

That said the whole thing was a shambles and some MPs said this into the microphone immediately after the required information was given. Apparently there is a fully functional, fully tested and tried method for remote voting but Rees-Mogg is pursiuing his usual traditionalist/exclusionary agenda.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 3, 2020, 07:53:25
Its also worth noting that this will achieve sweet FA benefit for Johnson at PMQ's as it will still only be 50 in the house, further illustrating its a complete waste of time bar disenfranchising a large part of the population.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/02/the-tories-turn-parliament-into-the-worlds-worst-theme-park


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 3, 2020, 09:25:12
Its also worth noting that this will achieve sweet FA benefit for Johnson at PMQ's as it will still only be 50 in the house, further illustrating its a complete waste of time bar disenfranchising a large part of the population.
Approx 15m voters who's MPs are excluded by this apparently. Democracy dies in stages


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 3, 2020, 09:35:19
Approx 15m voters who's MPs are excluded by this apparently. Democracy dies in stages

Is that just those who should not be attended parliament due to vulnerable status, travel restrictions etc, assume the 600 ommited will change by each sitting and that there will be a rule to ensure that the govt doesn't just pick the 50 from their own benches.

PMQ is going to actually be no different and MP's will have to be careful that they don't get admonished like Hancock if they try to revert back to old methods.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 3, 2020, 10:26:59
Is that just those who should not be attended parliament due to vulnerable status, travel restrictions etc
Yes, that was the MPs who were excluded from the vote yesterday. Some, of course, may have had pairing arrangements but as those aren't published, it's difficult to tell. Excluding 600 MPs from debates is also pretty terrible if you believe in parliamentary democracy


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 3, 2020, 11:32:16
Nice to see 'tone' coming up in PMQ's, seems to be the stock Tory response to questions they don't like, bloody snowflakes.

To avoid anyone having to bother watching it Johnson's new approach appears to be to basically respond that any question of the government is an attack on the public.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: brocklesby red on Thursday, June 4, 2020, 07:45:52
So Alok Sharma, the business secretary is having a Covid test after falling ill at the dispatch box yesterday. How many mps will have to self isolate if he tests positive?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, June 4, 2020, 07:48:50
What a cock up.

They did have a working system, only for it to be fucked up and all because Moggy wanted to be relevant.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, June 4, 2020, 07:52:23
So Alok Sharma, the business secretary is having a Covid test after falling ill at the dispatch box yesterday. How many mps will have to self isolate if he tests positive?
Both of them judging by the numbers in the house of commons.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 4, 2020, 09:12:50
What a cock up.

They did have a working system, only for it to be fucked up and all because Moggy wanted to be relevant.
There's a reason why he dresses like an undertaker.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 4, 2020, 12:28:57
And there you go....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/03/britain-ready-allow-import-chlorinated-chicken-us/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, June 4, 2020, 13:07:25
And there you go....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/03/britain-ready-allow-import-chlorinated-chicken-us/
You couldn't make it up could you ??.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, June 4, 2020, 13:10:38
I was told they were not obliged to put county of origin in the packaging under the proposals too...

still, farmers voted brexit..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 4, 2020, 13:34:53
Watch until the end

https://twitter.com/jelle_simons/status/1267973290083192834?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, June 4, 2020, 14:15:44
So Alok Sharma, the business secretary is having a Covid test after falling ill at the dispatch box yesterday. How many mps will have to self isolate if he tests positive?

In around 2015 or 2016, Alok Sharma, in his role as Reading local MP, was invited to come and see a community outreach project that I was involved with which used football to engage young teenagers. He was told there would be a photo op with the media. Turned up late, discovered the media weren’t there but that the organisation would be taking a photo and issuing a press release, posed for the photo and made his excuses and left. Didn’t talk to any of the children or volunteers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 4, 2020, 15:29:13
Rees-Mogg has just said in Parliament that "I’ve never had longer hair and I’m beginning to wonder whether I ought to ask nanny if she can find a pudding bowl and put it on and see if something can be done as an emergency measure". After some heckles he responded "Of course nanny is part of the household, what a daft question".

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2020/06/04/my-hair-risks-me-looking-like-long-haired-lover-from-liverpool-says-rees-mogg/

Jesus Fucking Wept. #AllInItTogether


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, June 4, 2020, 18:19:11
The odd thing is, his hair looks just like it always does. It’s either a wig, has barely grown in 2 and a half months or he’s been having it cut already.

Photo of Rees-Mogg in the commons today attached.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Thursday, June 4, 2020, 18:37:41
That smarmy fucker wouldve been breaking lockdown rules all lockdown guaranteed imo


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Thursday, June 4, 2020, 18:40:03

still, farmers voted brexit..

I tried pointing this out to some farmers on twitter recently, did not go down well.

Them: "How do you know farmers voted Brexit!?"
Me: "It says it on every poll I can find. Happy to be proven wrong."
Them: "Maybe you're just finding what you want to find!"
Me: "I'm googling the question and reading all the results. Happy to be proven wrong. Every poll I can find says so. Can you show me some links that say otherwise?"
[silence]

Them: "I'm a farmer and I didn't vote Brexit!"
Me: "But lots of others did."
Them: "Right. So all farmers are Brexiteers then!"

Them: "Farmers are lumped together not just politically but ability, situation, money and all the ways we are pigeonholed. Some of the worst culprits to my great annoyance is school teachers!
 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

At which point I realised that sensible debate and discussion on Twitter is absolutely pointless, at least with farmers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, June 4, 2020, 18:45:54
They do tend to milk it as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Thursday, June 4, 2020, 19:12:36
What a cock up.

They did have a working system, only for it to be fucked up and all because Moggy wanted to be relevant.

Calm down girls & boys. Nightmare on Elm Park is tickety-boo. Panic over.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, June 4, 2020, 20:25:29
They do tend to milk it as well.

Hmm, some of them are lovely but some of them can be quite arable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 5, 2020, 08:22:30
I tried pointing this out to some farmers on twitter recently, did not go down well.

Them: "How do you know farmers voted Brexit!?"
Me: "It says it on every poll I can find. Happy to be proven wrong."
Them: "Maybe you're just finding what you want to find!"
Me: "I'm googling the question and reading all the results. Happy to be proven wrong. Every poll I can find says so. Can you show me some links that say otherwise?"
[silence]

Them: "I'm a farmer and I didn't vote Brexit!"
Me: "But lots of others did."
Them: "Right. So all farmers are Brexiteers then!"

Them: "Farmers are lumped together not just politically but ability, situation, money and all the ways we are pigeonholed. Some of the worst culprits to my great annoyance is school teachers!
 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

At which point I realised that sensible debate and discussion on Twitter is absolutely pointless, at least with farmers.

I must have imagined all the leave paraphernalia in the fields round here, the same fields that are full of blue billboards come election time.

Sadly the farmers, like the fishermen and the good people of Sunderland are going to feel the consequences of their actions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, June 5, 2020, 08:45:44
Sadly the farmers, like the fishermen and the good people of Sunderland are going to feel the consequences of their actions.

More sadly the first people to feel the consequences, will be the Ulster folk, who voted to Remain.  Their business organisations having had border controls sprung on them by Johnson, are pointing out can't happen by January, which would leave them in chaos, even if Lockdown hadn't.

On a positive note, Farage always pointed out that with the ceasing of FoM, immigration would have to be from elsewhere to drive the economy. It was assumed this would mainly be from the sub continent, but Johnson has pulled a rabbit, by announcing the granting of FoM for 3 million Hong Kong Chinese.  Bit of a a master stroke.... 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Banker on Friday, June 5, 2020, 09:18:04
For your average Brexiter, not so sure shutting the door on Polish plumbers only to open it again for immigrants from HK and the sub-continent is going to sit well. We'll see.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 5, 2020, 09:36:04
For your average Brexiter, not so sure shutting the door on Polish plumbers only to open it again for immigrants from HK and the sub-continent is going to sit well. We'll see.

Thing is setting the HK issue aside it was entirely inevitable, I have noted on here on various occasions that I have people in my wider family who voted leave purely on the basis that they seemed to think it would mean fewer brown faces in the towns they live in, despite migration from the sub-continent having nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.

And it was only ever going to increase to meet the shortfalls caused by reduction in EU migration, its already the case that India, who we are going to be begging for a trade deal, have already stated that they will only grant one if we relax visa requirements for their citizens.

Sadly, just another case of people believing the lies peddled by the snake oil salesmen that such inevitabilities were 'project fear'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, June 5, 2020, 09:49:03
Thing is setting the HK issue aside

Don't think you can do this..... the Mein Kampf of the cabinet loons, Britannia Unchained, clearly outlines that they think the British worker is lazy and should be more like the average Indian... not wanting to be a pop star or footballer but a doctor or cabinet minister.  Hong Kong Chinese offer this and more


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 5, 2020, 10:30:14
I was told they were not obliged to put county of origin in the packaging under the proposals too...

still, farmers voted brexit..

See how easy the lies flowed.

https://twitter.com/operabinoculars/status/1268837467265867776?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 8, 2020, 10:46:30
Good to see Conservative Party councillor (Ryan Houghton), who was a PPC for Aberdeen North, has been let back into the party.

ICYMI: he questioned evidence of the Holocaust, said Islam’s core teachings had the goal of “world domination” & discussed “Eurabia”.

That's on top of the Two Tory mayors & a deputy have been convicted for child sex offences inside of a year.

Nice.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, June 8, 2020, 13:19:02
This is pretty big news and a start of change. Did not think I would ever see the beginnings of this in the USA.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/07/minneapolis-city-council-defund-police-george-floyd


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 8, 2020, 15:42:24
In December Johnson told us he had "an oven-ready Brexit deal"; in January (instead of preparing for COVID-19) he was celebrating the "great" deal he had negotiated with the EU; now he is insisting the EU is being intransigent because he wants to renegotiate his "brilliant" "oven-ready" deal. Lying then or lying now? (Obviously, probably both)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 8, 2020, 17:15:02
Nigel Lawson was chairman of Vote Leave but soon after the referendum fucked off to live in a mansion in France and announced he would be applying for residency there rather than live among the consequences of the shitstorm he helped create. He's now been turned down because he's not prepared to pay taxes there so now he's crawling back with his tail between his legs.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/nigel-lawson-to-quit-france-to-return-to-the-uk-1-5920438


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Monday, June 8, 2020, 22:07:55
^^^talking to himself again.
Four votes including a 1.269 MILLION majority. He probably still thinks the electorate got it wrong. FOUR times!
Deluded.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 06:51:09
Nigel Lawson was chairman of Vote Leave

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/nigel-lawson-to-quit-france-to-return-to-the-uk-1-5920438

That was last year. But double 'stupid cunting' him is fine.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 09:31:31
Much has been said on here about those bloody universities turning impressionable people into lefties, yet all along it was all down to Rik Mayall (who passed 6 years ago)!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaD5g2cXsAAqM4F?format=jpg&name=small)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chubbs on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 10:03:08
This made my morning. https://twitter.com/i/status/1270026617105113093


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 12:09:12
The geniuses among Yaxley Lennon's followers are looking for Islamic statues to pull down. Muslims (and everyone else) are pissing themselves laughing at the morons - "If you find any, let the local mosque know. They’ll come help you."

https://twitter.com/NadiaKamil/status/1270301241546022912


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 12:18:05
If he is losing the Express he is on his way out https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1293211/Boris-Johnson-news-latest-poll-coronavirus-leader-lockdown-end

Also being noted by certain political correspondents that a growing number of Tory MP's have had enough and are sick of him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 12:19:28
The geniuses among Yaxley Lennon's followers are looking for Islamic statues to pull down. Muslims (and everyone else) are pissing themselves laughing at the morons - "If you find any, let the local mosque know. They’ll come help you."

https://twitter.com/NadiaKamil/status/1270301241546022912

That's hilarious if true.

I can't find a source other than the one posted, though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 12:23:35
Nice to see Farage being rather vigorously handed his arse on a plate on GMB this morning by two lasses considerably more intelligent than him (and good god it showed)!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chubbs on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 12:30:44
The geniuses among Yaxley Lennon's followers are looking for Islamic statues to pull down. Muslims (and everyone else) are pissing themselves laughing at the morons - "If you find any, let the local mosque know. They’ll come help you."

https://twitter.com/NadiaKamil/status/1270301241546022912

I'll admit, i had to check why this would be funny. I had no idea that representation of the human form is a no-no


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 12:36:33
The geniuses among Yaxley Lennon's followers are looking for Islamic statues to pull down. Muslims (and everyone else) are pissing themselves laughing at the morons - "If you find any, let the local mosque know. They’ll come help you."

https://twitter.com/NadiaKamil/status/1270301241546022912

Setting aside the comedy value of it..

What has the black lives matter and statues being toppled to do with Muslims, its almost like their problem is actually with Muslims and not some bullshit patriotism, protecting children etc etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 12:54:29
That's hilarious if true.

I can't find a source other than the one posted, though.
I had seen something in passsing on Twitter this morning, I think replying to or mockingly retweeting one of said idiots. But can't find it now, sorry.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 12:55:41
Nice to see Farage being rather vigorously handed his arse on a plate on GMB this morning by two lasses considerably more intelligent than him (and good god it showed)!
Why was he even on there? "Well, we've got two intelligent well-educated anti-racists on, so better get an ignorant racist to balance it up".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 13:15:50
Hmmmmmmmm

https://www.indy100.com/article/tory-mps-laugh-slavery-video-9556371


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 13:34:28
Trump now trying to claim the 75 year old who was shoved to the ground by Buffalo police and left lying in a pool of blood could be an Antifa "provocateur" who deliberately split his own head open

https://twitter.com/brianklaas/status/1270339507951407108


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 15:12:04
The geniuses among Yaxley Lennon's followers are looking for Islamic statues to pull down. Muslims (and everyone else) are pissing themselves laughing at the morons - "If you find any, let the local mosque know. They’ll come help you."

https://twitter.com/NadiaKamil/status/1270301241546022912
:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 16:47:05
Trump now trying to claim the 75 year old who was shoved to the ground by Buffalo police and left lying in a pool of blood could be an Antifa "provocateur" who deliberately split his own head open

https://twitter.com/brianklaas/status/1270339507951407108

I think he's really struggling at the moment, his ratings are down, his handling of the Covid19 and the Black Lives Matter protests were abysmal. Whist he was ranting on Twitter about Antifa etc the Democrats were playing a blinder showing empathy to all and sundry in the Black community.

Is Trump a busted flush?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 17:39:57
I think he must be in trouble if Fox are beginning to waver:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-takes-heat-for-suggesting-man-shoved-by-buffalo-police-may-be-antifa-provocateur

Think his love in with OANN is causing them to soften on him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 17:40:52
I just had a look at OANN. Our great leader Mr Wellens follows them, should we be concerned by that?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Leggett on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 17:45:29
Ohhhh shit, really?!?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 18:02:03
Being reported that trump's campaign team spent a fortune on election ads on Fox as they know he will see them and ve reassured that all is normal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 18:24:29
I think he's really struggling at the moment, his ratings are down, his handling of the Covid19 and the Black Lives Matter protests were abysmal. Whist he was ranting on Twitter about Antifa etc the Democrats were playing a blinder showing empathy to all and sundry in the Black community.

Is Trump a busted flush?

Trump is used to being the story.  When his profile dips for a few days, he pops up to say something appalling & inflammatory to bring all the attention back to himself again.  The problem he now has is that the pandemic and the BLM movement are both way bigger deals than he is.  And he doesn't know how to handle it.

His base will rally at some point to support him again.  But at the moment I agree that he looks irrelevant & marginalised.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 09:03:01
In December Johnson told us he had "an oven-ready Brexit deal"; in January (instead of preparing for COVID-19) he was celebrating the "great" deal he had negotiated with the EU; now he is insisting the EU is being intransigent because he wants to renegotiate his "brilliant" "oven-ready" deal. Lying then or lying now? (Obviously, probably both)

Boris Johnson is going to be in so much trouble when Boris Johnson realises that Boris Johnson negotiated the dreadful that Boris Johnson is now having to extract us from.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 09:08:45
Perhaps he confused the oven with the bin, afterall when ones' housekeeper cannot attend due to COVID-19 guidelines, one has to use said appliances without aid (or should that be aide?)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:24:40
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1270366444405096451.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:45:10
The geniuses among Yaxley Lennon's followers are looking for Islamic statues to pull down. Muslims (and everyone else) are pissing themselves laughing at the morons - "If you find any, let the local mosque know. They’ll come help you."

https://twitter.com/NadiaKamil/status/1270301241546022912

They are boycotting Sainsbury's now! https://www.indy100.com/article/sainsburys-museum-of-london-docklands-slave-trader-statue-robert-milligan-9558266


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 13:11:08
The whole thing is out of control on both sides now.
If there is any protest in London on Saturday it’s going to get very messy with veterans and EDL idiots like Tommy Robinson going to protect monuments such as Churchill’s memorial. The police have put themselves in a ridiculous situation now as if they move on or get heavy handed with the ‘far right’ as they Daily Mail are describing them then it’s going to get reported as prejudice against white people. This is the problem when the police get too touchy feely rather than just doing their job, they set themselves up for a massive fall!

I’ve always said going after the Churchill memorial and things like the Cenotaph was the worst thing BLM could do for their cause and unfortunately I think we will soon see the results!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 13:22:12
If it follows the path of the USA, they will gradually evolve into much more peaceful occasions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 13:32:51
Definitely not a problem with racism in this country, no idea what all the fuss is about!

Nice to see the commonly used, if you don't like it go away, argument being deployed, shouting why don't you go back to Africa at a load of white people protesting was a particular high point.

https://www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/news/hertfordshire-news/black-lives-matter-shocking-video-4207130


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 14:49:57
Fucking hell: the state of our parliament (TLDR: a freelance football commentator was sent a threatening email from a device connected to the network inside the Houses of Commons)

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18506712.probe-racist-threats-sent-football-presenter-westminster-device/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 15:59:05
Definitely not a problem with racism in this country, no idea what all the fuss is about!

Do you mean that you think racism does not exist in this country, or do you mean that racism exists and you agree with it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 16:01:11
Do you mean that you think racism does not exist in this country, or do you mean that racism exists and you agree with it?

Or option c: he's being sarcastic?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 16:01:57
I think, and pretty sure that Horlock was being sarcastic and does know that racism is (unfortunately) rife in the UK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 16:03:19
Or option c: he's being sarcastic?

Beat me to it you b'stard  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 18:20:07
Robert Milligan now gone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 19:20:48
It's a shame Trump can;t be given an actual Dummy to spit out at times:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/10/politics/trump-campaign-cnn-poll/index.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 11, 2020, 10:18:55
Never seen this in all its glory.

https://twitter.com/EllyDavis/status/1270803089050738693?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Thursday, June 11, 2020, 11:55:17
"Tired PM is taking 3-hour naps"

https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1269372605250838531?s=19

To be fair to the man, not bothering to read the scientific Covid19 reports probably frees up most of the afternoon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 11, 2020, 12:20:06
"Tired PM is taking 3-hour naps"

https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1269372605250838531?s=19

To be fair to the man, not bothering to read the scientific Covid19 reports probably frees up most of the afternoon.
They're lining him up to be replaced with another of the Tufton St Mafia aren't they?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, June 11, 2020, 12:21:48
 Buckland has announced the reversal of Grayling's privatisation of the Probation Service.... fair play.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 11, 2020, 13:54:06
"Tired PM is taking 3-hour naps"

https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1269372605250838531?s=19

To be fair to the man, not bothering to read the scientific Covid19 reports probably frees up most of the afternoon.

Does he do the afternoon briefing any day apart from Wednesdays when he has to roll up to work for PMQ's anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, June 11, 2020, 21:58:30
They probably aren't three hour naps either, it's just when he nips off to fuck his mistress. Now that it's legal to go and visit "others" in your bubble.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Friday, June 12, 2020, 00:08:33
So I see they’ve now boarded up the Churchill Statue and the Cenotaph to ‘protect them’. I wonder how long the fuckwit Mayor of London will leave it like that, indefinitely I bet to try and keep the protestors happy. Absolutely shameful that it’s been allowed to come to this, especially needing to protect the Cenotaph of all things! They’ve even removed the Union Jack from the Cenotaph as part of it, absolute joke!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 12, 2020, 09:04:01
So I see they’ve now boarded up the Churchill Statue and the Cenotaph to ‘protect them’. I wonder how long the fuckwit Mayor of London will leave it like that, indefinitely I bet to try and keep the protestors happy. Absolutely shameful that it’s been allowed to come to this, especially needing to protect the Cenotaph of all things! They’ve even removed the Union Jack from the Cenotaph as part of it, absolute joke!

Indeed he should have just fucked off on holiday like his predecessor at the first sign of trouble.... just out of interest what would you suggest he does then oh and why is he a fuckwit?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 12, 2020, 09:06:08
Indeed he should have just fucked off on holiday like his predecessor at the first sign of trouble.... just out of interest what would you suggest he does then oh and why is he a fuckwit?
The right hate him, because he's, you know, a bit brown.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Friday, June 12, 2020, 09:12:32
Indeed he should have just fucked off on holiday like his predecessor at the first sign of trouble.... just out of interest what would you suggest he does then oh and why is he a fuckwit?
Tried to stop the protests in the first place due to an ongoing pandemic or at least protected the monuments then. Boarding up the Cenotaph of all things is shameful!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 12, 2020, 09:26:55
Tim Montogomerie, arch Tory and Brexiteer, who was once so close to Johnson he was like the slime on a slug, has written a scathing attack on how Johnson simply isn't up to the job in, of all places, the New Statesman.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/06/why-i-broke-boris-johnson

This is like Peter Mandelson writing a "Oh FFS Blair's a bit of a wanker" piece in the Spectator 6 months after New Labour took office. When even massive fan boys like this start to fess up that Johnson's a bit shit, that gives some idea of the realisation even in the Tory Party of just how unsuitable for office Johnson actually is. Shame they didn't realise it on the back of the copious evidence from the shambles he made of being Foreign Secretary or London Mayor, might have saved 10s of thousands of lives and the economy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 12, 2020, 09:39:15
Tried to stop the protests in the first place due to an ongoing pandemic or at least protected the monuments then. Boarding up the Cenotaph of all things is shameful!

So boarding it up then would have been fine, but now is shameful, not sure what you are trying to say here I think you are mistaking the mayor for the police unless you think he should have laid on the ground or something?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Friday, June 12, 2020, 09:46:04
So boarding it up then would have been fine, but now is shameful, not sure what you are trying to say here I think you are mistaking the mayor for the police unless you think he should have laid on the ground or something?
It’s only been boarded up this time to prevent the ‘far right’ from trying to protect them. The Cenotaph shouldn’t need to boarded up under any circumstances, it’s non political and a tribute to the fallen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 12, 2020, 09:48:51
Hmmmmm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-53010198


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 12, 2020, 09:52:43
The right hate him, because he's, you know, a bit brown.

How dare he!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Banker on Friday, June 12, 2020, 10:04:50
Hmmmmm

The whole Cenotaph episode smells real bad. Watch the reaction, I mean the inaction, of the police from 1:24. Now they've boarded the cenotaph up, cue outrage. A stunt throughout. We're all being played.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWNiLlxDvSM


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 12, 2020, 10:33:20
The whole Cenotaph episode smells real bad. Watch the reaction, I mean the inaction, of the police from 1:24. Now they've boarded the cenotaph up, cue outrage. A stunt throughout. We're all being played.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWNiLlxDvSM

The cynic in me does wonder whether the present disorder is being rather stoked to distract what what is really going on in the background, on both sides of the Atlantic.

Job losses being announced, No Deal Brexit looming, UK-US trade talks next week: the British will get shafted over food standards & NHS, cronyism of public sector contracts to mates, herd immunity aka population cull. Racism debate is a smokescreen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 12, 2020, 10:36:38
The cynic in me does wonder whether the present disorder is being rather stoked to distract what what is really going on in the background, on both sides of the Atlantic.

Job losses being announced, No Deal Brexit looming, UK-US trade talks next week: the British will get shafted over food standards & NHS, cronyism of public sector contracts to mates, herd immunity aka population cull. Racism debate is a smokescreen.
You missed out a govt minister accepting a bribe to break the law for a Tory donor's profit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, June 12, 2020, 10:37:20
The whole Cenotaph episode smells real bad. Watch the reaction, I mean the inaction, of the police from 1:24. Now they've boarded the cenotaph up, cue outrage. A stunt throughout. We're all being played.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWNiLlxDvSM

That is very interesting.  Looks like the Police aggressively protected the individual on the cenotaph when others were clearly trying to get him to stop.  It looks to me like the Police could easily have got him down and there were enough of them to do so without risking him hitting the ground.  Conspiracy theories aside, that is just very strange.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 12, 2020, 10:39:41
That is very interesting.  Looks like the Police aggressively protected the individual on the cenotaph when others were clearly trying to get him to stop.  It looks to me like the Police could easily have got him down and there were enough of them to do so without risking him hitting the ground.  Conspiracy theories aside, that is just very strange.
*her. Undercover cop acting as provocateur? Wouldn't be the first time, there was a lot of coverage of the SDS and POIU a couple of years ago and some of those cases still going through the courts
Equally, could be interpreted that they were trying to stop other people possibly joining her, lot easier to deal with just one than a whole bunch of people


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, June 12, 2020, 10:45:40
The cynic in me does wonder whether the present disorder is being rather stoked to distract what what is really going on in the background, on both sides of the Atlantic.

Job losses being announced, No Deal Brexit looming, UK-US trade talks next week: the British will get shafted over food standards & NHS, cronyism of public sector contracts to mates, herd immunity aka population cull. Racism debate is a smokescreen.

To begin with, I thought you were being a tad silly.

Then I reminded myself that this government is being led, advised by Cummings.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 12, 2020, 11:28:43
So, we're "taking back control" by having no border controls on goods imported into the UK, but accepting full border controls in the other direction. It's almost as if the EU, being the much larger partner in these trade negotiations, can dictate whatever terms they want isn't it? "But they need us more than we need them".

https://www.ft.com/content/37fad070-160f-4d3b-b043-940b843a0daf?shareType=nongift


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Banker on Friday, June 12, 2020, 11:31:06
*her. Undercover cop acting as provocateur? Wouldn't be the first time, there was a lot of coverage of the SDS and POIU a couple of years ago and some of those cases still going through the courts
Equally, could be interpreted that they were trying to stop other people possibly joining her, lot easier to deal with just one than a whole bunch of people

There are WW1 memorials up and down the country, and not one to my knowledge has been targeted by BLM protesters.

ONE individual climbs the Cenotaph with a lighter (video reproduced in the Daily Telegraph), a police unit watches on as she cavorts while being filmed. The Cenotaph is now boarded up because of the 'threat', and Little England is in uproar.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Friday, June 12, 2020, 12:57:57
For the record the damage to Alfred Fagon’s is equally as despicable. Whole tit for tat could have been avoided if the police actually enforced the law at the beginning, anyone with half a brain cell knew what would follow.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, June 13, 2020, 05:58:55
It’s only been boarded up this time to prevent the ‘far right’ from trying to protect them. The Cenotaph shouldn’t need to boarded up under any circumstances, it’s non political and a tribute to the fallen.
The cenotaph and churchill have been boarded up on numerous occasions prior to demonstrations (May Day 2001, various student protests), strangely the FLA etc have been less interested in those cases...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, June 13, 2020, 16:07:00
The far right have fucked up big time today.  BLM tactfully withdraw, and leave the skins to take centre stage.  Nazi salutes next to Churchill's statue, urinating on PC Keith Palmer's memorial.  As Napoleon said, never interrupt your opponent when they're busy making a mistake.  Horrible people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, June 13, 2020, 16:56:41
The only winners today are coke dealers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, June 13, 2020, 17:24:43
Sure it was the polices fault, they were only trying to protect the statues.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, June 13, 2020, 17:27:28
Quote from: Ardiles
The far right have fucked up big time today.  BLM tactfully withdraw, and leave the skins to take centre stage.  Nazi salutes next to Churchill's statue, urinating on PC Keith Palmer's memorial.  As Napoleon said, never interrupt your opponent when they're busy making a mistake.  Horrible people.

But right minded people already think they are a bunch of  racist fucktards.

not sure what the fuck up is?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, June 13, 2020, 17:37:59
But right minded people already think they are a bunch of  racist fucktards.

not sure what the fuck up is?
From social media over the last week I fear there are fewer right minded people about than previously envisaged.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BoA Vagabond on Saturday, June 13, 2020, 17:53:37
From social media over the last week I fear there are fewer right minded people about than previously envisaged.
I agree. Dangerous times ahead.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Saturday, June 13, 2020, 20:57:43
Sure it was the polices fault, they were only trying to protect the statues.
The protests should have been stamped out last weekend, last time I checked we were still in a pandemic. Now selective enforcement of the law has been applied its becoming a free for all.

From social media over the last week I fear there are fewer right minded people about than previously envisaged.
Twitter posts & the protests probably account for less than 1% of the UK population I wouldn’t worry too much. Elections consistently show that those most vocal aren’t representative of most people’s views. Most people just think both sides are acting like fuckwits with no regard for the ongoing global pandemic.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Sunday, June 14, 2020, 04:05:38
Twitter posts & the protests probably account for less than 1% of the UK population I wouldn’t worry too much. Elections consistently show that those most vocal aren’t representative of most people’s views.
Yes, social media certainly seems to amplify the extreme ends of views. This site is a good example.
You make a value pint about election results.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 15, 2020, 08:17:36
Elections consistently show that those most vocal aren’t representative of most people’s views. Most people just think both sides are acting like fuckwits with no regard for the ongoing global pandemic.

The most recent election showed in quite stark reality that those most vocal on Saturday were pretty representative of the majority of peoples views (based on seats won).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 15, 2020, 12:35:22
Comments from David Lammy on R4 re yet another review.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaiWkMgXkAE0jY5?format=png&name=900x900)

Wasn't aware so many reviews/commissions had reported and nothing has changed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 15, 2020, 15:17:40
Johnson's priorities, in a nutshell

Important:
Dominic Cummings
Statues
Zoos

Not Important:
Care Homes
Feeding disadvantaged kids


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 15, 2020, 15:25:14
Johnson's priorities, in a nutshell

Important:
Dominic Cummings
Statues
Zoos

Not Important:
Care Homes
Feeding disadvantaged kids

Thanks David  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 15, 2020, 15:26:06
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-red-wall-overwhelmingly-opposes-a-no-deal-brexit

So why the hell did they vote for a party which were obviously going to push for such an outcome.....


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, June 15, 2020, 15:46:02
yeah. tough shit. you voted for them.

I think the Tories will very happily hide the brexit financial clusterfuck the behind covid financial clusterfuck come reelection time


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 15, 2020, 15:49:07
Thanks David  ;)
Busted! I should have quoted the original really, but I saw it in passing earlier today, and couldn't find it when I came to post. Found it now, here's the original

https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1272503491240525824


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 15, 2020, 15:49:40
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-red-wall-overwhelmingly-opposes-a-no-deal-brexit

So why the hell did they vote for a party which were obviously going to push for such an outcome.....
Because they believed that party when they lied that they weren't going to. Or were just reckless as to the consequences because they were so determined to "Get Brexit Done"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, June 15, 2020, 15:51:05
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-red-wall-overwhelmingly-opposes-a-no-deal-brexit

So why the hell did they vote for a party which were obviously going to push for such an outcome.....

I doubt the validity of the conclusion to be honest.  It was pretty clear that people voted Tpry knowing it cold result in a No Deal Exit.  Ask a question the right way and you get the right answers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, June 15, 2020, 15:53:46
yeah. tough shit. you voted for them.

I think the Tories will very happily hide the brexit financial clusterfuck the behind covid financial clusterfuck come reelection time
Of course. That's why they're going so full tilt for the No Deal they promised they wouldn't, because they're betting they can bury the calamity under COVID


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 15, 2020, 15:59:41
Busted! I should have quoted the original really, but I saw it in passing earlier today, and couldn't find it when I came to post. Found it now, here's the original

https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1272503491240525824

It was only as I had literally just read it on Twitter! TBH I am in no position to judge, I often copy and paste if someone has said what I am thinking 'cos I am a lazy twat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 15, 2020, 16:00:36
Of course. That's why they're going so full tilt for the No Deal they promised they wouldn't, because they're betting they can bury the calamity under COVID

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EajswMeXYAAFfw-?format=jpg&name=medium)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 15, 2020, 16:03:21
You couldn't make it up...

Priti Patel just called Jeremy Corbyn's politics racist in the House of Commons

The home secretary said: "I am saddened that the leader of the opposition has effectively failed to depart from the divisive, hateful, racist politics of its former leader"


https://twitter.com/lizziedearden/status/1272561905555685376?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, June 15, 2020, 16:41:36
You couldn't make it up...

Priti Patel just called Jeremy Corbyn's politics racist in the House of Commons

The home secretary said: "I am saddened that the leader of the opposition has effectively failed to depart from the divisive, hateful, racist politics of its former leader"


https://twitter.com/lizziedearden/status/1272561905555685376?s=20

Smacks of desparation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Tuesday, June 16, 2020, 05:34:04
Smacks of desparation.
What did Starman do or not do for her to react in that manner?

Btw it is desperation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, June 16, 2020, 07:09:40
Smacks of desparation.

Or Incompetence, i.e. blurting shit out without thought.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 16, 2020, 09:03:26
Smacks of desparation.

Taking trolling to a new level today, https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/15/dismay-over-adviser-chosen-set-up-uk-race-inequality-commission-munira-mirza

So Johnson announces commission not to parliament, but behind a paywall in the Telegraph, what is the point of setting up a commission whereby the person leading it is a) not remotely independent and b) already made their feelings and opinions on the subject matter abundantly clear.

If anyone has missed it she is the lass who used to be a member of the Revolutionary Communist Party (see Claire Fox and Warrington Bombings), losing a case against ITN re Bosnian genocide and  also has linked to Spiked and Brendan O'Neill.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 16, 2020, 09:17:59
Taking trolling to a new level today, https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/15/dismay-over-adviser-chosen-set-up-uk-race-inequality-commission-munira-mirza

So Johnson announces commission not to parliament, but behind a paywall in the Telegraph, what is the point of setting up a commission whereby the person leading it is a) not remotely independent and b) already made their feelings and opinions on the subject matter abundantly clear.

If anyone has missed it she is the lass who used to be a member of the Revolutionary Communist Party (see Claire Fox and Warrington Bombings), losing a case against ITN re Bosnian genocide and  also has linked to Spiked and Brendan O'Neill.
The RCP lot are weird, even by the standards of the extreme Trot sects of the 80s. They went from being one of the most extreme cult-like Trots in the 80s and then kind of imploded in the early 90s, carrying on as just a magazine, Living Marxism, which tried to be a bit edgier than the dour heavyweight tomes of most of the extreme left. Then that went tits up as well and sometime around 10-15 years ago, they all reinvented themselves as alt-right fanatics, and started writing as Spiked, which is one of these controversialist websites that basically just exists to stoke controversy and "think the unthinkable" - i.e. far right trolls. So they've done a complete volte face from being the very extreme fringe of the far left to now being on the boundary between the hard right of the Tory party and the far right outside the Tory Party (although thanks to Johnson and Cummings, that's an increasingly blurred boundary).

The fact that Tory MPs are being sent "Spiked" articles as "talking and rebuttal points" speaks volumes about both the complete vapidity of the current govt and how far they have gone away from anything resembling mainstream Conservatism.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 16, 2020, 09:36:03
The RCP lot are weird, even by the standards of the extreme Trot sects of the 80s. They went from being one of the most extreme cult-like Trots in the 80s and then kind of imploded in the early 90s, carrying on as just a magazine, Living Marxism, which tried to be a bit edgier than the dour heavyweight tomes of most of the extreme left. Then that went tits up as well and sometime around 10-15 years ago, they all reinvented themselves as alt-right fanatics, and started writing as Spiked, which is one of these controversialist websites that basically just exists to stoke controversy and "think the unthinkable" - i.e. far right trolls. So they've done a complete volte face from being the very extreme fringe of the far left to now being on the boundary between the hard right of the Tory party and the far right outside the Tory Party (although thanks to Johnson and Cummings, that's an increasingly blurred boundary).

The fact that Tory MPs are being sent "Spiked" articles as "talking and rebuttal points" speaks volumes about both the complete vapidity of the current govt and how far they have gone away from anything resembling mainstream Conservatism.

Their links to Irish Republicanism put Corbyn to shame, yet the right wing Tories love them.

As for Munira Mirza, looks like she is made for the job. https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1272639442688380929?s=20

He hubby also works at no.10, looks like he might have some useful services for JOhnson. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8107533/Former-sex-party-boss-lands-job-Downing-Street-Government-strategist-researcher.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 16, 2020, 14:45:42
Cameron the pig-fucker has criticised the decision to absorb DfID into the Foreign Office because " the end of @DFID_UK will mean less expertise, less voice for development at the top table and ultimately less respect for the UK overseas". Think you'll find that ship has long since sailed and gone down with all hands lost, Dave.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, June 16, 2020, 17:16:36
it's taken a footballer led groundswell to get the government to backtrack on meal vouchers..

just a couple of weeks ago they were justifying schools had to open to protect the vulnerable children.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, June 16, 2020, 17:39:52
Indeed, brilliant from him and the continued work done by FareShare. Yet another u-turn from this government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 17, 2020, 09:15:39
Jesus its just a great big ego trip, just hope we don't need to go to war anytime soon.

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnsons-jet-gets-austin-powers-makeover-12007923


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BoA Vagabond on Wednesday, June 17, 2020, 09:33:43
Jesus its just a great big ego trip, just hope we don't need to go to war anytime soon.

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnsons-jet-gets-austin-powers-makeover-12007923
Surely easier to see and shoot down.....😱??     @officialjokeonlytobelaughedat


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 17, 2020, 14:41:56
So he doesn't want free movement for people, but his dogs are a different matter...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-tory-mp-bob-stewart-dog-pet-passport-france-channel-a9569231.html

I am pretty sure this isn't a parody....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Wednesday, June 17, 2020, 15:13:29
https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1273161756131688448

This makes me think everything post Brexit will be OK.  Amongst other things our boomerang industry is safe...

...and there was me thinking Brexit and leaving the largest single trade union in the world (which gives tariff free movement of goods for all UK exports) might not be such a good idea. But it's OK - Boris has got it all under control.  With free movement of Marmite and Penguins (biscuits) to Oz our economy will thrive.

Soapy tit wank


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, June 17, 2020, 15:19:25
A nation can be built on Pasties but not on Marmite and Penguins (despite loving Penguins (animal and biscuit)).

Plus don't most Strayans fucking hate Marmite and toss it off over Vegemite? That's like getting Devon & Cornwall to agree on the Jam/Cream - Cream/Jam debate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sir windon on Wednesday, June 17, 2020, 15:26:22
The PM. Literally a car crash.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/borisjohnson/video-2193584/Video-Boris-Johnsons-security-crashes-PMs-car.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 18, 2020, 08:23:13
Oh deary deary me. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53086042


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 18, 2020, 09:52:24
Dominic Raab thinks "Taking a Knee" derives from Game of Thrones. Jesus Wept. Thick. As. Mince.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 18, 2020, 10:06:29
"The problem is the yawning gap between assumed superiority and actual performance"

https://www.ft.com/content/147a1989-6f9e-44b3-8d6b-b56f2d5f680d?desktop=true&segmentId=d8d3e364-5197-20eb-17cf-2437841d178a#myft:notification:instant-email:content


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 18, 2020, 12:24:08
Dominic Raab thinks "Taking a Knee" derives from Game of Thrones. Jesus Wept. Thick. As. Mince.

Asked if he would take the knee himself Mr Raab replied he would only take the knee for two people, "the Queen and the Mrs when I asked her to marry me".

'The Mrs', he is such a man of the people geezer isn't he.

TBF he was talking to the Waitrose Hatey Cockpins when he made the comment so he would have been taking the tone expected on her show.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, June 18, 2020, 18:30:33
Latest from King's Landing...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 19, 2020, 15:27:46
This isn't going away, been a long time since we had a proper high level planning scandal.

https://www.propertyweek.com/news/ties-between-government-and-lobbying-firm-come-under-scrutiny-amid-1bn-richard-desmond-planning-controversy/5108559.article


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, June 19, 2020, 18:57:08
This isn't going away, been a long time since we had a proper high level planning scandal.

https://www.propertyweek.com/news/ties-between-government-and-lobbying-firm-come-under-scrutiny-amid-1bn-richard-desmond-planning-controversy/5108559.article
You're ordering in crates of popcorn aren't you? :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 22, 2020, 11:03:59
Ooops she did it again...

https://www.indy100.com/article/tory-student-nurse-helen-whately-uk-coronavirus-9578556


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Monday, June 22, 2020, 17:05:42
She is a walking disaster. Beggars belief that she is allowed to continue to be a perpetual car crash.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, June 22, 2020, 20:51:31
She is a walking disaster. Beggars belief that she is allowed to continue to be a perpetual car crash.

10,000th post. Congrats! 🙂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 08:40:54
Beggars belief that she is allowed to continue to be a perpetual car crash.

Not really a surprise, one only has to look at this forum and elsewhere to get the understanding that for many the government can still do absolutely no wrong at all, whatever happens.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 09:57:59
This is very worrying - govt are proposing to abolish trial by jury, under the pretext of a backlog caused by COVID, but actually caused by a decade of austerity:

https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1275357343019040768

Irrespective of what the backlog was caused by, trial by jury has underpinned our justice system for centuries. It's a hallmark of a free society, it's abolition is a step toward authoritarianism.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 10:24:40
This is very worrying - govt are proposing to abolish trial by jury, under the pretext of a backlog caused by COVID, but actually caused by a decade of austerity:

https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1275357343019040768

Irrespective of what the backlog was caused by, trial by jury has underpinned our justice system for centuries. It's a hallmark of a free society, it's abolition is a step toward authoritarianism.

Thing is at the moment knowledge of the legal system is rather low and opinions seem rather hawkish and hardline.

Its been noticeable after the tragic and shitty events of the weekend up here that literally every story in the local media, when provided on social media after a while descends into a grotty wank fest about who can be the more hardline and aggressive about the need for corporal punishment and retribution against the perpetrator.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 12:51:54
This is very worrying - govt are proposing to abolish trial by jury, under the pretext of a backlog caused by COVID, but actually caused by a decade of austerity:

https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1275357343019040768

Irrespective of what the backlog was caused by, trial by jury has underpinned our justice system for centuries. It's a hallmark of a free society, it's abolition is a step toward authoritarianism.

I believe introduced by Henry II. He remade and improved the whole English legal system.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 13:06:18
10,000th post. Congrats! 🙂

Feel a bit undeserving tbh, but glad that this milestone post was used to slag off a useless fucking Tory.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 13:37:16
On my computer it suggests Mr Reeves has only 3381 posts?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 14:22:50
On my computer it suggests Mr Reeves has only 3381 posts?

10,000th reply on this thread.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 15:05:47
10,000th reply on this thread.

FFS!  :doh:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, June 24, 2020, 00:25:03
FFS!  :doh:

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 08:30:01
Nadim Zahawi on Radio 4 this morning "defending" Robert Jenrick tried to claim that Richard Desmond didn't get special access to ministerial influence in return for bags of cash for the Tory Party. When he was asked how ordinary members of the public could gain access to MPs and ministers to ensure favourable consideration for their planning or business interests, Zahawi suggested that members of the public could simply go to Tory fundraising dinners and then they too could talk to MPs. Because that's how democracy works. Corrupt to the core.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 08:38:50
10,000th reply on this thread.
Not as impressive as Bristol (Colston) City have over a 1300 page thread on their neighbours!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 08:41:54
Nadim Zahawi on Radio 4 this morning "defending" Robert Jenrick tried to claim that Richard Desmond didn't get special access to ministerial influence in return for bags of cash for the Tory Party. When he was asked how ordinary members of the public could gain access to MPs and ministers to ensure favourable consideration for their planning or business interests, Zahawi suggested that members of the public could simply go to Tory fundraising dinners and then they too could talk to MPs. Because that's how democracy works. Corrupt to the core.

Its getting ever smellier, are we supposed to think it was an entire coincidence that he happened to be seated next to Jenrick, Desmond also has close friends higher up the food chain although that's rather being ignored.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbV3rcYXYAED5Ps?format=jpg&name=360x360)

In a way, the most depressing thing is how cheap the whole thing was, basically to save their party donor £45m CIL which would have gone to one of the most deprived borough's in London the Tories only took £12k.

You don't send a text after meeting someone for the first time which says “We don’t want to give the Marxists loads of doe (sic) for nothing!” if you haven't been encouraged! Actually reading that back, perhaps LL is actually Richard Desmond?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 09:15:31
Its getting ever smellier, are we supposed to think it was an entire coincidence that he happened to be seated next to Jenrick, Desmond also has close friends higher up the food chain although that's rather being ignored.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbV3rcYXYAED5Ps?format=jpg&name=360x360)

In a way, the most depressing thing is how cheap the whole thing was, basically to save their party donor £45m CIL which would have gone to one of the most deprived borough's in London the Tories only took £12k.

You don't send a text after meeting someone for the first time which says “We don’t want to give the Marxists loads of doe (sic) for nothing!” if you haven't been encouraged! Actually reading that back, perhaps LL is actually Richard Desmond?
£45m is a lot of doe. Quite deer, in fact :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 10:33:12
See Maxine Peake is busy today, blaming anyone who didn't vote Labour for the Tories winning and reinforcing the belief that many hard core Corbynistas are a bit anti-Semiticy  ::)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 11:00:02
This might be why No 10 hasn't thrown Jenrick to the wolves, despite the obvious corruption:

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/06/23/sweeney-investigates-what-connects-robert-jenrick-to-the-gambino-crime-family-and-putins-oligarchs/

It always keeps coming back to Russia, doesn't it? Remember the report into Russian interference in UK politics and the influence of organised crime? Due to be released in October but Johnson kyboshed it until after the election? 6 months on and still not released. Corrupt to the core.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 11:25:23
See Maxine Peake is busy today, blaming anyone who didn't vote Labour for the Tories winning and reinforcing the belief that many hard core Corbynistas are a bit anti-Semiticy  ::)

Being critical of Isreal's domestic and foreign policy is not anti-semetic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 11:36:45
Being critical of Isreal's domestic and foreign policy is not anti-semetic.
It seems that as soon as anyone disagrees with something Israel does then thats automatically classed as anti semetic, and it really isn't.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Anteater on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 11:43:48
It seems that as soon as anyone disagrees with something Israel does then thats automatically classed as anti semetic, and it really isn't.
This


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 12:06:44
Being critical of Isreal's domestic and foreign policy is not anti-semetic.

She wasn't being critical of Israel's domestic and foreign policy, she just mysteriously dropped a well known dog whistle/conspiracy theory in that really didn't need to be said and is not actually backed up by any evidence*.

She would do so much more for Labour if she just kept quiet as it just allows the stuff about her tax affairs to be rolled out again (and again).

* there is an AI report that links the training of US police by Israeli forces, however it makes no mention of the technique used on George Floyd, nor does it say Minneapolis PD is among those to send officers for training so god know why she felt the need to raise it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: moredonboy on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 12:32:02
https://israelpalestinenews.org/minn-cops-trained-by-israeli-police-who-often-use-knee-on-neck-restraint/?fbclid=IwAR309RK6GfJaSMOQPAkz05lTCGNuyfAUbUAR63kqAl5hRal-GTgYgVqVoJQ


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 12:32:52
She wasn't being critical of Israel's domestic and foreign policy, she just mysteriously dropped a well known dog whistle/conspiracy theory in that really didn't need to be said and is not actually backed up by any evidence*.

She would do so much more for Labour if she just kept quiet as it just allows the stuff about her tax affairs to be rolled out again (and again).

* there is an AI report that links the training of US police by Israeli forces, however it makes no mention of the technique used on George Floyd, nor does it say Minneapolis PD is among those to send officers for training so god know why she felt the need to raise it.

* pictoral evidence ok?

https://twitter.com/ALQadiPAL/status/1266675209676959745


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 12:36:28
Amnesty International seem to think US police are sometimes trained by the Isrealis too? Are they known for their anti-semetism?

https://www.amnestyusa.org/with-whom-are-many-u-s-police-departments-training-with-a-chronic-human-rights-violator-israel/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 13:03:43
Thanks, the AI piece I read noted (as did my post) that Israel forces train US Officers, as do bizarrely Scottish ones.

It just seems to be an incredibly stupid thing for an intelligent person, a high profile celebrity supporter whose comments are guaranteed to be picked up, to say when it is perceived by many, rightly or wrongly, that the party she is supporting in the interview has gained a reputation, rightly or wrongly, for having a problem with the issue, to use the piece to link a murder in America somewhat tenuously to Israel is just fanning the flames.

It is eminently possible and necessary to talk about systemic racism and police brutality in America (and elsewhere in the world) without talking about Israel.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 13:39:43
Looks like the matters are both closed https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1276122135845638148?s=20

Interesting that Johnson has just dismissed this out of hand, previously PM's tended to get the Cabinet Secretary to investigate, not even bothering to pretend any more.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 14:08:59
I never did buy into the Corbyn = anti-semite stuff but...

Starmer has just sacked RLB. Corbyn should probably have done something similar to make a point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 14:11:33
You can't say that's not zero tolerance. It feels a bit on the harsh side considering the shit anyone in the cabinet seems to get away with, but it was a bloody stupid thing to do considering the difficulty Labour has had with anti-Semitism. Read shit before you share it...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 14:20:25
Well, that's certainly decisive. You can't have "more of the same" creeping in.

Though she should have been removed for normal Labour aspirational reasons.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 14:24:01
Though she should have been removed for normal Labour aspirational reasons.

He might have let her stay to allow this exact thing to happen. He's clearly no dummy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 14:31:09
Wouldn't it just have been cheaper to charter a BA plane when Johnson needs to massage his ego, they have plenty free in the coming months.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbXJsRiWAAIgjV9?format=jpg&name=large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 14:41:38
Quote from: Flashheart
He might have let her stay to allow this exact thing to happen. He's clearly no dummy.

If so, will played.

The corbynati can't complain too loudly at it without incriminating themselves, which I guess was your point


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 14:45:26
If so, will played.

The corbynati can't complain too loudly at it without incriminating themselves, which I guess was your point

Partly that. And partly because he gets to make an example of somebody in clear view of the press. It's one less stick to hit him with.

Two birds - one stone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 14:50:00
Partly that. And partly because he gets to make an example of somebody in clear view of the press. It's one less stick to hit him with.

Two birds - one stone.

I wonder whether its going to accelerate the inevitable split, plenty of sympathetic voices on twitter suggesting that she start a new party so they can follow her.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 15:02:05
I wonder whether its going to accelerate the inevitable split, plenty of sympathetic voices on twitter suggesting that she start a new party so they can follow her.

And we keep coming back, then, to the inherent bias under FPTP against new parties, or splits.  It's a rotten system that could keep the Tories in power almost indefinitely...so they'll perpetuate it for as long as they can.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 15:09:54
And we keep coming back, then, to the inherent bias under FPTP against new parties, or splits.  It's a rotten system that could keep the Tories in power almost indefinitely...so they'll perpetuate it for as long as they can.

WE had our chance in 2011, Labour sadly chose to sit on the fence on that issue.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 15:42:39
Sad, I know.  The most effective way that the Lib Dems or the Greens, for example, could bring about an end to Tory government would be to disband.  That can't be right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 17:28:13
On the Isreal thing, linking it to the Police in the USA, they get trained by all and sundry.  Each local force gets to choose it's own training and they have plenty of people in to teach them, there is an entire industry of people making money off of the Police.  That's on top of them hoovering up Military equipment.  In short, there isn't a nationwide standard.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 21:22:29
Yesterday the Tories voted against weekly testing for NHS staff and care workers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Thursday, June 25, 2020, 21:35:14
I am really trying to avoid social media re politics cos it is beyond depressing, I mean really mind fucking "if you have mental health issues avoid it" mind fucking (seeing my counsellor next week for first time in 3 months!)

But sometimes you get dragged back to it.  This is amazing - the Conservatives whilst voting down a Labour motion requiring weekly testing for NHS staff, they added an amendment saying how fucking brilliant the Tories have been.

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1276181783873290241

You.  Couldn't.  Make. It. Up.

I am trying to avoid political posts, honest.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, June 26, 2020, 02:27:45
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/face-the-front-and-pay-attention-minister-orders-nation-s-children-mpq792shs

Tories taking England back to the Puritan Age? But who gets the role of Cromwell?  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, June 26, 2020, 06:25:51
WE had our chance in 2011, Labour sadly chose to sit on the fence on that issue.
That's true.  

However greater responsibility for the rejection of the a Proportional Representation system lies with the LDs permitting the Cons to put forward an incomprehensible version of a longstanding keynote LibDem policy.  A venal and weak Clegg was done like a kipper.

Had there been a referendum for PR that succeeded (or even had a sporting chance of succeeding) then the LD trade off over tuition fees may have been an understandable policy trade off by the minority coalition partner.  As it was, it damaged liberalism in the UK and actually set back the cause of fair votes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, June 26, 2020, 06:39:57
Proportional representation leads to minority governments, which means parties have to compromise and work together. Which for some reason a lot of this country believe to be a weakness


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 26, 2020, 08:49:10
Proportional representation leads to minority governments, which means parties have to compromise and work together. Which for some reason a lot of this country believe to be a weakness

Indeed, albeit FPTP also gave us coalition governments from 2010 to 2019 (bar the short Cameron second term).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, June 27, 2020, 08:27:05
This is one piece I wouldn't have expected to find in the Telegraph.  Disappointingly, there are no comments allowed below the line.  They would have been an interesting read, for sure.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/brexit-covid-19-set-collide/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 30, 2020, 11:21:00
So apparently most of the woes in the planning system and housing shortages are down to Newts, who would have known it!

Total bullshit with another stupid 3 word slogan, coincidentally delivered on the last day we can prevent crap/no deal. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, June 30, 2020, 12:01:35
This is literally the only detail published today, FWIW there is nothing here that hasn't been known about and mooted for months and months.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ebwj3-UWoAQFtDV?format=jpg&name=large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, June 30, 2020, 12:30:36
Theresa May savaging Gove over the appointment of a political yes man with no experience to the crucial role of National Security Adviser:

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1277933918285692928

This govt is prepared to sacrifice everything on the altar of absolute conformance to Cummings' Brexit orthodoxy: our economy, our health and now our national security. The govt is looking more and more like the Trump administration every day.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 08:37:16
I suspect there is going to be a fair bit of this in the coming months....

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1277505330885386240.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 08:48:05
Agreed although that story sounds very made up


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 08:57:56
Agreed although that story sounds very made up

I am not sure, my old man has a house in the south of France (which they can't give away now, but that's another story) and they have a number of friends over there who are just like this and now in a similar position.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 09:29:15
Agreed although that story sounds very made up

It is possible that it is made up.

It is also very plausible that it is genuine. There is A LOTof fuckwittery out there. I know somebody living in Europe that is complaining about potential travel restrictions. No prizes for guessing which way they voted on brexit.

On a slight tangent. I know people in Thailand that complain about 'excess' immigration in Britain. Not only has the irony of them being an immigrant bypassed them, but they also complain when their wives/girlfriends have to jump through hoops to get a visa to Britain.

It's also fairly a common mind-set, not a small minority.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 09:37:28
I found this an interesting read on the current malaise in British politics:

https://unherd.com/2020/07/is-tony-blair-to-blame-for-our-tribal-politicians/

Ignore the URL, the article has been retitled to "Where have all the good politicians gone?". Although tbf, Blair should take a considerable amount of the blame IMO and the article does explore that, but it's not the main thrust of it by any means (hence the retitling, I assume)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 12:09:38
Loving Starmer in PMQ's. Every week he takes the useless Boris apart. He does so with ease too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 15:00:08
Loving Starmer in PMQ's. Every week he takes the useless Boris apart. He does so with ease too.

Totally agree. He ties the cunt up in knots so easily.

Yet the Momentum element of Labour seem hell bent on trying to bin him. Incredible. First chance of toppling (a very shit) Conservatives and instead they start kicking lumps out of the very man who can easily unpick the Tories. All because Starmer has moved Labour back towards the centre ground. A position I mooted before the last election; saying '...if a party moved closer to the centre ground then they would beat the Tories.' This nation is crying out for some kind of balance and stable consensus. Both parties have been guilty of drifting. Labour more to the left under Corbyn (not all bad but too much for many) and Conservatives continue their slide to the far right and their associations. Others just don't really have the same influence despite some great policies, unfortunately.

I have had several people on my social media spouting non-evidential crap that Starmer is a Neo-Liberal. Purely based on his sacking of RLB (I still think this was the right move). This was only written in January and if he's a Neo-Lib then why would he speak about making changes to "Free market policy"? Surely music to the ears of the more left leaning and Corbynite members of the Labour Party?

Read here:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/11/keir-starmer-tacks-to-left-momentum-makes-its-pick-labour-leader

Some Labour voters won't like that Starmer "looks" a bit Blairitey. Kind of in the same way people didn't like Ed Milliband for looking a bit Millhouse, ie a ridiculous mindset to use but people do. Except it's just because he possibly isn't a far left as Corbyn. I put him more left of centre. The question is; do Labour voters feel that this rightward shift is the correct move to obtain control or would they prefer to help divide a nation further, even when it's core principle is to unite?

Some Labour voters might want to read Starmer's statement on his website if they were considering abstaining from voting in the next GE;

Read Here:
https://keirstarmer.com/plans/reformandunite/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 15:20:11
A god awful recession is on its way I fear, in just the last few days the following job losses;

5000 at Upper Crust and other brands
2000 at EasyJet
2000 at Royal Mail
1700 at Airbus
600 at TM Lewin
700 at Harrods
500 at Arcadia
An unknown number at John Lewis

GDP crashed in the first quarter of 2020 and will spiral down in the second quarter, we then have the potential for Covid 2 and then the cherry on the cake, an entirely self inflicted and actively sought no/shit deal Brexit, making a mockery of Johnsons withering cry of jobs, jobs, jobs (Beginning to realise that Cullings main genius seems to be coming up with catchy three word slogans) in the Commons earlier.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 16:02:25
A god awful recession is on its way I fear, in just the last few days the following job losses;

5000 at Upper Crust and other brands
2000 at EasyJet
2000 at Royal Mail
1700 at Airbus
600 at TM Lewin
700 at Harrods
500 at Arcadia
An unknown number at John Lewis

GDP crashed in the first quarter of 2020 and will spiral down in the second quarter, we then have the potential for Covid 2 and then the cherry on the cake, an entirely self inflicted and actively sought no/shit deal Brexit, making a mockery of Johnsons withering cry of jobs, jobs, jobs (Beginning to realise that Cullings main genius seems to be coming up with catchy three word slogans) in the Commons earlier.
Let's be honest we're already in a horrendous recession we just haven't realised yet because there's thousands of zombie companies and jobs being kept artificially alive by furlough and associated schemes (not criticising that btw). Once that support is withdrawn, as it must be eventually, those losses will crystallise. We're not alone in this, pretty much every Western economy has the same problem. We're likely to be harder than most though, according to sources as diverse as the OECD, the FT and the Telegraph


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, July 2, 2020, 10:48:49
Swindon and Wiltshire gets £9.7m from the ‘get Britain Building’ fund. Which should achieve what, three quarters of a roundabout?

The guff around this scheme is disgusting. It’s not even that it’s undoing whatever’s gone on in the last ten years - it’s that Johnson’s putting forward what in national economic terms is the square root of fuck all and wants to be judged as a messiah for it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 2, 2020, 10:53:19
Swindon and Wiltshire gets £9.7m from the ‘get Britain Building’ fund. Which should achieve what, three quarters of a roundabout?

The guff around this scheme is disgusting. It’s not even that it’s undoing whatever’s gone on in the last ten years - it’s that Johnson’s putting forward what in national economic terms is the square root of fuck all and wants to be judged as a messiah for it
Indeed, it's laughable that he compared it to Roosevelt's New Deal and feigned concern that it was such a generous handout he was worried about people thinking he might be a communist. It's estimated we'd need to spend £7bn just to undo the damage done to schools alone in the decade of austerity. £5bn is a drop in the parched desert of austerity, and it's not even "new" money. In many areas it represents a cutback on previously announced schemes. I'm sure the usual suspects will lap it up though


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 2, 2020, 11:03:36
Swindon and Wiltshire gets £9.7m from the ‘get Britain Building’ fund. Which should achieve what, three quarters of a roundabout?

The guff around this scheme is disgusting. It’s not even that it’s undoing whatever’s gone on in the last ten years - it’s that Johnson’s putting forward what in national economic terms is the square root of fuck all and wants to be judged as a messiah for it

Like the majoirty of such programmes (Introduced by governments of all colours) its generally just a rebranding of stuff that was already going to happen. Amusingly the BBC's Reality Check team have looked at Johnson's speech and found that every major assertion was either previously announced, a lie, or a distortion of the truth - usually some combination of the three.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/53236921


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 2, 2020, 11:06:25
Indeed, it's laughable that he compared it to Roosevelt's New Deal and feigned concern that it was such a generous handout he was worried about people thinking he might be a communist. It's estimated we'd need to spend £7bn just to undo the damage done to schools alone in the decade of austerity. £5bn is a drop in the parched desert of austerity, and it's not even "new" money. In many areas it represents a cutback on previously announced schemes. I'm sure the usual suspects will lap it up though

Indeed, for instance in my line of work he said in his speech he'll get more homes built. But in fact he's cutting annual funding by stretching the existing £12bn over 8 years instead of 5,


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 2, 2020, 11:24:49
Its all going swimmingly...

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/trump-is-on-his-way-out-and-so-is-johnsons-hopes-of-a-us-uk-trade-deal/01/07/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 2, 2020, 11:29:56
Its all going swimmingly...

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/trump-is-on-his-way-out-and-so-is-johnsons-hopes-of-a-us-uk-trade-deal/01/07/
Hmm, don't underestimate Trump's willingness to outright rig the polls or even just claim the election result is fake if he loses and attempt to stay in power anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, July 2, 2020, 13:11:02
Hmm, don't underestimate Trump's willingness to outright rig the polls or even just claim the election result is fake if he loses and attempt to stay in power anyway.

A la Putin.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 2, 2020, 13:14:54
A la Putin.

I imagine he holds all the cards for Trump (and Johnson) to remain in post.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, July 2, 2020, 14:00:08
I imagine he holds all the cards for Trump (and Johnson) to remain in post.


Without going all Conspiracy theory like my Aussie friend the other day...

We all know that those "G<<insert number>> Summit" meetings (not the televised handshakey, smiles and nods, tables and pens bits) are a discreet way for World Leaders to discuss their individual vested economic interests and continue their ongoing tallied score of RISK and Backgammon.

Since 2016, USA never understands the rules and tips the board over when losing, whilst Russia has nearly always cheated in full view, The UK gives it the billy big bollocks but also has no idea how to play. Germany tries to be better every time and takes it incredibly serious but has a wry snigger when the US fails to identify the location of Alberta or Irkutsk. China remain silent the whole time and slowly collect more territories although everyone disputes Siam has been unfairly obtained. The French light a cigarette and shrug their shoulders. In a separate room, unknown to the media, the secretly invited Saudi Arabians play Backgammon. Fed up, confused and slightly over their tantrums of unable to sustain world domination, the US and the UK join KSA; betting on which Arab State will succeed. Whilst picking on the smaller nations to make themselves feel all big and to retain some sense of importance. Ben Wallace is there but no one really knows who he is. The UK and US also have no idea how to play Backgammon.

Brazil enters the room with Corned Beef sandwiches for all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 3, 2020, 09:43:49
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-take-knee-black-lives-matter-protests-a9599301.html

Yet two days ago he was suggesting we clap for bankers?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 3, 2020, 09:59:57
Let's be honest we're already in a horrendous recession we just haven't realised yet because there's thousands of zombie companies and jobs being kept artificially alive by furlough and associated schemes (not criticising that btw). Once that support is withdrawn, as it must be eventually, those losses will crystallise. We're not alone in this, pretty much every Western economy has the same problem. We're likely to be harder than most though, according to sources as diverse as the OECD, the FT and the Telegraph

Point taken, just picked up from Private Eye...

-9.1% change in GDP of Greece in 2011 at height of their debt crisis;
-17.0% Change in GDP of Zimbabwe in 2003 after sanctions imposed;
-20.4 Change in GDP of UK in April this year.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 3, 2020, 14:11:17
What were we all worrying about...

https://twitter.com/RupertMyers/status/1278972972817092608?s=20

https://twitter.com/CoppetainPU/status/1278981380102291457?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 3, 2020, 14:25:03
What were we all worrying about...

https://twitter.com/RupertMyers/status/1278972972817092608?s=20

https://twitter.com/CoppetainPU/status/1278981380102291457?s=20
It seems like only last September that Johnson was saying No Deal would be "a massive failure of statecraft"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2019/sep/09/no-deal-brexit-would-be-a-failure-of-statecraft-says-boris-johnson-video


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 3, 2020, 14:54:54
Hmm, don't underestimate Trump's willingness to outright rig the polls or even just claim the election result is fake if he loses and attempt to stay in power anyway.

https://www.newsweek.com/how-trump-could-lose-election-still-remain-president-opinion-1513975


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Saturday, July 4, 2020, 10:19:44
Swindon Borough Council meetings to be steamed live


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, July 5, 2020, 19:58:40
Cummings planning to slasht the Armed forces by over 25%, including abolishing the Marines. Putin's really getting value for the few millions he spent isn't he?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/army-to-be-cut-by-20-000-if-no-10-plan-is-approved-bc2zbqm2h


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, July 5, 2020, 20:07:19
Imagine if Corbyn even mentioned doing something like that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, July 5, 2020, 21:20:13
Can't wait to hear what a good chunk of my squaddie friends (ex and serving) think about this?! They who always voted Tory, on the only basis that they believed they always had an increased budget under their power.

Always questioned whether it was true or not but couldn't be arsed to argue the toss so let it slide. This would be an interesting to see how they vote next time  :soapy tit wank:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 6, 2020, 08:45:56
Cummings planning to slasht the Armed forces by over 25%, including abolishing the Marines. Putin's really getting value for the few millions he spent isn't he?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/army-to-be-cut-by-20-000-if-no-10-plan-is-approved-bc2zbqm2h

Next week we will be scrapping Trident and buying the Russian equivalent!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 6, 2020, 08:47:21
Things looking rocky in paradise.... https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1279871372265734147.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 6, 2020, 09:24:10
are The Leave Alliance ironically named?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 6, 2020, 10:49:20
Oooppps she did it again....

https://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2020/07/priti-patels-unhealthy-lottery-liaison.html (I don't like linking Fenton, but the ST article is paywalled).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, July 6, 2020, 10:59:16
Oooppps she did it again....

https://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2020/07/priti-patels-unhealthy-lottery-liaison.html (I don't like linking Fenton, but the ST article is paywalled).
Here you go: unpaywalled ST original

https://archive.fo/SxFMN


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 6, 2020, 11:08:28
are The Leave Alliance ironically named?

Nope, apparently the fact that its a chaotic shitshow is down to those who stated from day one that it was unachievable and likely going to be a a chaotic shitshow.

(https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/107560829_3415584018500646_4645438663715241_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=Fkm39rXmcRYAX_NeYjC&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-1.fna&oh=7fcb1b21d76fd0cbb5b8b4c3da5eae8b&oe=5F26AF0B)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, July 6, 2020, 11:18:08
Is that Tweet saying that if Brexit turns out to be a disaster its the fault of people that didn't vote for it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, July 6, 2020, 11:19:41
Yep.

And somebody said something similar on here a while back.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Monday, July 6, 2020, 11:24:20
That's what it sounds like to me - what a surprise..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, July 6, 2020, 11:51:08
Not sure I completely get the logic.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 6, 2020, 11:59:18
Not sure I completely get the logic.



I believe its stage 1 of Project Pass the Blame


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, July 6, 2020, 12:01:55
Its about as logical as me stabbing my wife and then claiming its the fault of the person that made, or even sold me the knife.

That's probably a terrible analogy mind you but I think you get the drift!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, July 6, 2020, 12:24:42
It's almost as if "Project Fear" was more "Reasonable warnings of what a catastrophe this is quite likely to be". TBF to the Leave Alliance, they are the (small minority of) moderate Brexiteers who got completely swamped by the extremists led by Johnson/Gove and Farage/Banks, think they have always argued for a much lengthier more managed transition over a decade or so. But they do need to own their own shit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Monday, July 6, 2020, 12:46:17
But they do need to own their own shit.

If I was on Twitter, I'd be encouraging everyone to post that in response to whatever they tweet.  But as I'm not, I can't.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 6, 2020, 12:52:12
If I was on Twitter, I'd be encouraging everyone to post that in response to whatever they tweet.  But as I'm not, I can't.

Everyone is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, July 6, 2020, 13:13:03
This guy really does fuck me off:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/steve-hilton-trump-2020-election

A true Political Leach.  How he has managed to continue to craft a career is beyond me.  He seems to latch onto whatever new wave idea he thinks is going to have political legs.  Gone from being liked by Libs Dems to full throated support of Populism and Trump.  He did an interview on the latter where he seemed completely non-plussed about the fact it attacks the Elite when he has becomes one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 6, 2020, 13:24:39
This guy really does fuck me off:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/steve-hilton-trump-2020-election

A true Political Leach.  How he has managed to continue to craft a career is beyond me.  He seems to latch onto whatever new wave idea he thinks is going to have political legs.  Gone from being liked by Libs Dems to full throated support of Populism and Trump.  He did an interview on the latter where he seemed completely non-plussed about the fact it attacks the Elite when he has becomes one.

Former Director of Strategy to 'Call me Dave' and we know how well that turned out, also widely credited with making the Tories hammering in 97 even worse. The inspiration for Stewart Pearson..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyKUVWLeMaA

He is like a diet Cummings.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 6, 2020, 14:20:41
Got no interest in going over the machinations of it all again, but you have to strangely admire the sheer front and ingenuity of it all. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-dominic-cummings-hacked-eu-referendum-lloyd-hardy/



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 7, 2020, 09:29:32
Oh, this is superb: arch uber-capitalists and supreme enemies of any govt intervention of any form, the Ayn Rand Institute have been bailed out by the US govt's Coronavirus fund

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ppp-ayn-rand/in-sign-of-the-times-ayn-rand-institute-approved-for-ppp-loan-idUSKBN248026

No-one need ever take anything they say seriously ever again (assuming anyone ever did in the first place)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 7, 2020, 09:39:02
Described himself to a tee....

(https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/107473086_942344672854385_256563981578039602_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=tGoyotHf0yYAX_uHrfu&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-1.fna&oh=0e2f6bbcef89719eb6a8cac1ef458613&oe=5F2A475A)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 7, 2020, 15:53:05
Shit, no one saw this coming https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-53320065


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 8, 2020, 09:27:24
Cummings has granted himself access to Britain's most secret defence intelligence installations to conduct an inspection tour so secret even the MoD haven't been told what it is about.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/cummings-to-drop-in-on-britain-s-most-secret-defence-installations-20200708-p559za.html

What could possibly go wrong? Incidentally, where's that Russia Report?

Meanwhile, Shit Penfold (aka Mark Francois) has been threatening the head of Britain's armed forces in a HoC committee that Cummings will "come down and sort you out".

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/mark-francois-threatens-army-chief-dominic-cummings-a4491866.html

Thank heavens we got free from those unelected bureaucrats dictating to us eh?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 8, 2020, 10:05:18
Cummings has granted himself access to Britain's most secret defence intelligence installations to conduct an inspection tour so secret even the MoD haven't been told what it is about.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/cummings-to-drop-in-on-britain-s-most-secret-defence-installations-20200708-p559za.html

What could possibly go wrong? Incidentally, where's that Russia Report?

Meanwhile, Shit Penfold (aka Mark Francois) has been threatening the head of Britain's armed forces in a HoC committee that Cummings will "come down and sort you out".

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/mark-francois-threatens-army-chief-dominic-cummings-a4491866.html

Thank heavens we got free from those unelected bureaucrats dictating to us eh?

Looking at the response of the Chief of Staff to Francois's threat said it all really (BTW isn't it fairly common knowledge that Cummings things Francois is a twat and vice versa), hopefully this might be the catalyst for some change insofar as dictators normally learn not to piss the military off early in their dictatorship.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, July 8, 2020, 12:00:47
Lots of giveaways as expected in the summer statement. Headlines being:

- No stamp duty until March 2021. This one will probably benefit me, but research shows stamp duty cuts tend to benefit sellers more than buyers. Propping up house prices?

- Eating out discounts Mon-Weds over the summer. Odd one.

- 5% VAT on hospitality & tourism

- £1000 per worker bonus for all firms who bring their furloughed staff back and retain them until at least January

Lots to chew over there, but in principle shows that they're going to spend to support the economy rather than leave it to the market.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Wednesday, July 8, 2020, 12:16:11
I do wonder whether companies may bin off their staff and use the cheap labour from the 16 - 24 years bracket


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 8, 2020, 12:29:13
Lots of giveaways as expected in the summer statement. Headlines being:

- No stamp duty until March 2021. This one will probably benefit me, but research shows stamp duty cuts tend to benefit sellers more than buyers. Propping up house prices?

- Eating out discounts Mon-Weds over the summer. Odd one.

- 5% VAT on hospitality & tourism

- £1000 per worker bonus for all firms who bring their furloughed staff back and retain them until at least January

Lots to chew over there, but in principle shows that they're going to spend to support the economy rather than leave it to the market.

I don't envy the government trying to negotiate the unknown, but from a personal point of view;

The stamp duty thing looks nice, but is essentially irrelevant if the mortgage lenders don't start lending again;

The hospitality and VAT thing, again this just seems a bit half arsed, many (including ourselves and friends) seem little disposed to go out to eat drink until a vaccine is found, this is based upon reports and anecdotal evidence that Jan/Feb next year looks like first potential sort of area, so this will peter out as it stands before that happens;

With the £!k the key issue is whether this is going to be enough to cover the costs of addressing the furlough reductions in the intervening period.

Seems sadly like a rather half hearted crack papering exercise really!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: reeves4england on Wednesday, July 8, 2020, 12:45:15
Lots of giveaways as expected in the summer statement. Headlines being:

- No stamp duty until March 2021. This one will probably benefit me, but research shows stamp duty cuts tend to benefit sellers more than buyers. Propping up house prices?

It's going to save me thousands as a buyer, some of which we'll use to buy new furniture etc just like Mr Sunak wants


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 8, 2020, 12:50:15
Not sure a tenner off a Nandos 3 days a week is going to reboot the economy, the targetting seems reasonable but this looks more like a popular move than a serious economic measure. Job Retention Bonus looks like a reasonable idea, will save some jobs but won't be nearly enough to stop the massive wave of redundancies that's coming in Sept/Oct.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Wednesday, July 8, 2020, 13:34:16
Not sure a cheeky tenner off a Nandos 3 days a week is going to reboot the economy

Fixed for you


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 8, 2020, 13:37:07
Fixed for you
:D You're very kind. Schoolboy error on my part


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, July 8, 2020, 19:07:59
I do wonder whether companies may bin off their staff and use the cheap labour from the 16 - 24 years bracket

That cheap labour bracket is even lower now days. Since cutting young adults between 21 and 24 from the old NMW, they now get less than the "NLW" but the target for low rate employment will be even narrower now. Likely to disregard even the 21-24 year olds and focus on 16-20. 16-17 get a ridiculous £4.55; 18-20 get a still rubbish £6.45.

I've never really understood (apart from the money saving measure by Gov) why for a certain bunch of jobs, that people who are younger get paid awfully less. Maybe a slightly lower rate for new employees should apply for younger workers in a probation period but after that just give them the same £9p/h (£8.70 or whatever it is)?

You can't tell me, after say working 6 months stacking shelves at Tesco's or picking orders at a warehouse, a 16/17 year old is any less qualified than a bloke who's been trundling around for the last 20 years. Especially when some of these (more so in the 18-20 bracket) might also study full time and don't have Mummy and/or Daddy to fall back on. Plenty of decent hardworking young adults, who certainly deserve the NLW that 25 and over receive.

I know some companies do choose to pay all employees the NLW (which is good of them) but even then, the rate the government set, is still pretty low.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, July 8, 2020, 20:13:35
It's likely a hangover from a bygone age when people were rewarded for length of service, not always how good they were or well they performed.  I've come across quite a few people with that attitude.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Thursday, July 9, 2020, 08:44:41
Strange that they were so reluctant to feed impoverished kids, but are happy to give restaurant vouchers to anyone and everyone at a much higher cost


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, July 9, 2020, 08:48:07
Strange that they were so reluctant to feed impoverished kids, but are happy to give restaurant vouchers to anyone and everyone at a much higher cost
Maybe they're trying to encourage impoverished kids back to McDonald's with their early week specials.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 9, 2020, 08:54:47
Strange that they were so reluctant to feed impoverished kids, but are happy to give restaurant vouchers to anyone and everyone at a much higher cost

They already culled the elderly, now moving onto the kids?

Actually on that point they seem to be actively trying to piss of traditional Tory voters at the moment;

Already pissed the elderly off;
Now actively pissing farmers off;
Deliberately destroying the Union, thus pissing unionists off. (remember they are officially the Conservative and Unionist Party).

Johnson's legacy is looking like being a once in a century destruction of the economy, break up of the Union and destruction of our international status, whatever way you look at it, that's quite some achievement. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 9, 2020, 09:00:29
They already culled the elderly, now moving onto the kids?

Actually on that point they seem to be actively trying to piss of traditional Tory voters at the moment;

Already pissed the elderly off;
Now actively pissing farmers off;
Deliberately destroying the Union, thus pissing unionists off. (remember they are officially the Conservative and Unionist Party).

Johnson's legacy is looking like being a once in a century destruction of the economy, break up of the Union and destruction of our international status, whatever way you look at it, that's quite some achievement. 
That's because the main drivers of this govt aren't Tories, they're far-right English Nationalists (well, tbf some are Russian agents). They've created a far-right English Nationalist Party using the shell of the old Conservative Party as a parasitic host and are now set about attacking the major UK institutions - the civil service, the armed forces, the BBC, the judiciary - as fast as they can.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 9, 2020, 09:24:07
Why would anyone get involved with frontline politics these days?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/labour-dawn-butler-brent-central-constituency-office-willesden-a4492636.html

It always seems to be the female ones who particularly rile the nasty bastards.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 9, 2020, 14:46:25
Good stuff
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EcUpo-eXkAANChK?format=jpg&name=medium)
24 Hours later
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EcUpo-XWkAAUk9q?format=jpg&name=medium)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 10, 2020, 11:02:37
Remember when Johnson, Gove and Farage persuaded people to vote Leave because Turkey was going to join the EU and that would allow all those Turks to come to the UK? (Turkey wasn't and isn't about to join the EU, but as ever with these three chancers they're not bothered about the lie if gets the result they want). Turkey is now demanding Turkish citizens be given "special immigration status" in order for the UK to secure a post-Brexit trade deal with Ankara.

https://www.ft.com/content/f641b245-8bf3-4b54-b7d2-13f6b423db45?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 10, 2020, 11:30:22
Remember when Johnson, Gove and Farage persuaded people to vote Leave because Turkey was going to join the EU and that would allow all those Turks to come to the UK? (Turkey wasn't and isn't about to join the EU, but as ever with these three chancers they're not bothered about the lie if gets the result they want). Turkey is now demanding Turkish citizens be given "special immigration status" in order for the UK to secure a post-Brexit trade deal with Ankara.

https://www.ft.com/content/f641b245-8bf3-4b54-b7d2-13f6b423db45?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6



Interestingly

1) The deal with Turkey is apparently subject to concluding FTA with EU as Turkey is a member of the CU.
2)Deal would preserve right of access to UK that Turkish citizens have to EU
3)UK reportedly has warmer relations with Turkey than EU because we have been broadly silent on erosion of democracy.

When you look at it, it makes sense as we have much more in common with Turkey than the EU these days, we are both populist dysfunctional post imperial states wittering on the fringes of EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, July 10, 2020, 14:33:09
Interestingly

1) The deal with Turkey is apparently subject to concluding FTA with EU as Turkey is a member of the CU.
2)Deal would preserve right of access to UK that Turkish citizens have to EU
3)UK reportedly has warmer relations with Turkey than EU because we have been broadly silent on erosion of democracy.

When you look at it, it makes sense as we have much more in common with Turkey than the EU these days, we are both populist dysfunctional post imperial states wittering on the fringes of EU.

The only difference being really is strength of currency. 1GBP to around 8-9tL. I hope it's that when I go later this year. Although the Turks do adjust their prices. Will certainly shop local when over there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Monday, July 13, 2020, 13:07:24
Lots of positives in the immigration plans announced today by the Home Secretary.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 13, 2020, 13:50:29
it's fine as it is 🤷&zwj;♂️


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, July 13, 2020, 18:06:11
#ClapForCarers
#AndThenDeportThem


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 11:06:19
'Have you read the report'
'I am aware of it'

Think we can take that as a no then.

'I am meeting some families bereaved by covid this afternoon this afternoon, anything you would like to say.'

'A shit gag about underwear'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 14:42:28
Andrew Neill being axed from the BBC.

Asides from the suspicious cock-up over Boris not getting interviewed, which was quite possibly not his fault, he was one of the few that would give them a grilling. A cynic might think that's at least part of the reason being it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 14:48:39
'Have you read the report'
'I am aware of it'

Think we can take that as a no then.
For those who didn't get the reference, this was Johnson in PMQs admitting he hasn't bothered to read the report into the chances of a second more deadly wave of COVID in the winter. I would say it's a shocking abrogation of his responsibilities but given he didn't bother to attend any of the early crisis meetings on COVID before the 1st wave, it's not exactly shocking that he's equally lazy and irresponsible about the second.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 14:50:49
Andrew Neill being axed from the BBC.

Asides from the suspicious cock-up over Boris not getting interviewed, which was quite possibly not his fault, he was one of the few that would give them a grilling. A cynic might think that's at least part of the reason being it.


Not strictly correct, the Andrew Neill Show is going (only been around since last autumn anyway - apparently) but they are talking to Neil about a new BBC One interview show suggesting that he will stay.

TBH of greater loss is the regional news shows going which was a great source of investigative stories that would not be covered at national level.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 14:54:42
given he didn't bother to attend any of the early crisis meetings on COVID before the 1st wave, it's not exactly shocking that he's equally lazy and irresponsible about the second.

To be fair, as has subsequently been reported he was desperately trying to sort his divorce during that period (you recall from his wife that he had cheated on whilst she was having cancer treatment) whilst preparing to shack up with his mistress and gain the media holiday of a new baby.

Seems strange, what with all the crap circulating due to his ineptitude and callous approach and the potential for positive deflection that we haven't seen anything of new mother or child, although as he says he is not a PM to depend on gestures.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 16:30:54
In perhaps the pinnacle of his already illustrious career, Chris Grayling has failed to get a job that no.10 parachuted him into....

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-tory-chris-grayling-denied-22361680

FWIW I strongly suspect the Russian Report contains little of interest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 16:43:14
In perhaps the pinnacle of his already illustrious career, Chris Grayling has failed to get a job that no.10 parachuted him into....

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-tory-chris-grayling-denied-22361680

FWIW I strongly suspect the Russian Report contains little of interest.
Chris Grayling must be the only man in politics who could fail to win a rigged election. A true champion for idiots everywhere


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 16:54:06
Government not had a good day, Johnson effortlessly led to the desired outcome by Starmer in PMQ's whilst the less said about Patel v. Cooper the better.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 20:13:21
Lewis now suspended from parliamentary Conservative party. All Grayling had to do was tread water for a week and then parliament goes into recess for the summer and the Russia Report could be kicked into the long grass until Autumn. Now the committee is due to meet again tomorrow to discuss publication. Cummings will be fuming


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 20:53:23
Mark Thomas has written a very amusing piece regarding Mr Grayling
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/an-ode-to-grayling-the-poster-boy-of-political-ineptitude/10/07/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 21:42:39
...recess...

You'd have thought during such an important time that recess would be suspended for a while. It's like a fucking holiday camp. Just how little has Boris actually been at the stand to be held account for this shitshow? Not enough for my liking and at times when there has been and still is plenty to scrutinise.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, July 16, 2020, 01:15:10
Lots of positives in the immigration plans announced today by the Home Secretary.

Did you get the answers you wanted?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 16, 2020, 08:25:06
Cummings will be fuming

Why do you think that Lewis has had the whip removed, for a genius Cummings makes a hell of a lot of unnecessary mistakes, trying to impose Grayling on the committee pissed off a lot of MP's (including some Tory ones) hence Lewis getting the chairmanship of the committee on the back of Labour, SNP and Tory votes, Cummings might be able to bully and manipulate employed civil servants, he doesn't seem to grasp the issues with elected members. Dominic Grieve was quite strident about it on NN last night;

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1283523486057664517?s=20

So we now have a pissed off committee who can choose to release the Russia Report, we shall see.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, July 16, 2020, 08:28:39
It's all very reminiscent of the Blackadder episode where they make Baldrick an MP isn't it?

Chris Grayling, MP for Dunny on the Wold.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 16, 2020, 08:47:36
It's all very reminiscent of the Blackadder episode where they make Baldrick an MP isn't it?

Chris Grayling, MP for Dunny on the Wold.
:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 16, 2020, 09:30:19
It's all very reminiscent of the Blackadder episode where they make Baldrick an MP isn't it?

Chris Grayling, MP for Dunny on the Wold.

It takes a certain skill to come second in a one horse race!

I don't think Patel is getting the coverage she deserves...

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1283347431606964226?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 16, 2020, 10:25:18
Russia Report out by next Wednesday then, I imagine it will be redated to such an extent that only the punctuation remains (or alternatively says nothing of any note).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 16, 2020, 10:28:28
Russia Report out by next Wednesday then, I imagine it will be redated to such an extent that only the punctuation remains (or alternatively says nothing of any note).
Not expecting a smoking gun, but I think there will be some further details to add to the overall stench of corruption and betrayal that surrounds this govt and its allies and some leads for journalists to follow up which will lead to more. Drip, drip, drip.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 16, 2020, 11:57:46
I see the cat flinging has started today.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Thursday, July 16, 2020, 14:08:15
I wonder what cockup this release is supposed to deflect from?

On a different note, Boris Johnson claimed the UKs' test and trace system was "as good as" any in the world, although Number 10 was unable to offer any evidence for the claim.
That is like me stating that I am 6ft tall adonis with flowing locks and a python in my trousers - then refusing to show anybody my pictures



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 16, 2020, 14:17:11
I wonder what cockup this release is supposed to deflect from?

On a different note, Boris Johnson claimed the UKs' test and trace system was "as good as" any in the world, although Number 10 was unable to offer any evidence for the claim.
That is like me stating that I am 6ft tall adonis with flowing locks and a python in my trousers - then refusing to show anybody my pictures

One would assume its to get people talking about Labour Russia links before they start talking about Tory Russia links?

Do you also have a stunningly beautiful older girlfriend, but she goes to another school!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, July 16, 2020, 17:37:32
Russia Report out by next Wednesday then, I imagine it will be redated to such an extent that only the punctuation remains (or alternatively says nothing of any note).

It will simply say;

RUSSIA REPORT
=======================

[REDACTED]


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 17, 2020, 11:28:58
(https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/109846896_949412288814290_3473350634743699723_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=gd8gAbUtRr8AX9leLxV&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-1.fna&oh=876c4e537d95249362ce1ae673b65c23&oe=5F3597D9)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 17, 2020, 11:42:40
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/helen-macnamara-priti-patel-bullying-inquiry-a4499931.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, July 17, 2020, 12:01:39
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/helen-macnamara-priti-patel-bullying-inquiry-a4499931.html

That's the sort of thing one would expect to see in deeply corrupted Thai politics. Not British politics.

Or, at least, it's not the sort of thing one used to expect to see in British politics.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, July 19, 2020, 07:06:01
Oh look baby (more like toddler but hey ho) pictures are out, must be something juicy about to emerge...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Sunday, July 19, 2020, 07:26:01
Russia Report incoming....

I’ll get the popcorn ready for the meltdown on here, I have high hopes chaps :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Sunday, July 19, 2020, 08:17:08
Russia Report incoming....

I’ll get the popcorn ready for the meltdown on here, I have high hopes chaps :D

Is that an official Chang prediction?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, July 19, 2020, 10:31:05
The Russin report's passed its medical.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, July 19, 2020, 10:39:19
Being suggested on Twitter that Banks is attempting legal action to stop it being released, due to potential effects upon his legal spat with Carole Cadwalladr.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 06:28:48
Pay rise above inflation announced for public sector staff including:
Teachers in England, and dentists and doctors across the UK, will see the largest increases at 3.1% and 2.8% respectively.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 06:50:16
have they said where the money is coming from? existing budgets?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 07:37:03
have they said where the money is coming from? existing budgets?
Existing budgets indeed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 07:42:59
After being forced to home school their sprogs, a lot more of parents or guardians will now realise the sterling job a lot of teachers do.

Less sounding off at parents evenings hopefully.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 07:44:47
On a day after they have voted down an amendment which would stop the NHS being sold off during trade deals with the us.

On a day when the Russia report is finally coming out.

Lets announce something to take the proles attention away shall we?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 08:08:49
On a day after they have voted down an amendment which would stop the NHS being sold off during trade deals with the us.

Its not only the NHS, the amendments voted down last night basically give the executive the right to do what they want in forthcoming trade negotiations (so chlorinated chicken, trashing environmental regs, sacking off labour rights), our elected members (outside government) quite literally have less ability to scrutinise trade negotiations than they did when it was the EU doing the negotiating. Taking back control...

On a day when the Russia report is finally coming out.


From the leaks floating around I suspect there will be no smoking gun in the RR, suspect it will make some noises about Russian funding to political parties and campaigns (much of which was already in  the public domain if one cared to look), but there will be much crowing of left wing whinging and paranoia and it will disappear under the carpet.


Lets announce something to take the proles attention away shall we?

As always its smoke and mirrors, the pay rise is going to have to be funded via existing budgets so its just less money to go round really.

It will be lapped up by those who also turn a blind eye to the Russians buying our political parties whilst claiming that they are the true patriots.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 08:39:30
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdXQKeIXgAAoEb4.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 09:01:55
On a day after they have voted down an amendment which would stop the NHS being sold off during trade deals with the us.

On a day when the Russia report is finally coming out.

Lets announce something to take the proles attention away shall we?
But still nothing for nurses and care workers. Apart from the threat of deportation once the Immigration Bill goes through

#ClapForCarers
#ButDontPayThemProperly
#AndDeportThem


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 09:13:59
They really are a bunch of fucking arseholes. Local Tory boys Tomlinson and Buckland both towed the party line as usual.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 09:30:38
They really are a bunch of fucking arseholes. Local Tory boys Tomlinson and Buckland both towed the party line as usual.

You mean "toed the party line"?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 09:33:04
They really are a bunch of fucking arseholes. Local Tory boys Tomlinson and Buckland both towed the party line as usual.

If you don't you rapidly lose the whip these days.

No smoking gun, but you can see why it was sat on for as long as it could be, the No.10 apin will be interesting.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/21/russia-report-reveals-uk-government-failed-to-address-kremlin-interference-scottish-referendum-brexit?CMP=share_btn_tw

TL:DR the long-awaited "Russia Report" doesn't actually "report" any investigation into "Russia" meddling in the EU referendum, because nobody in government nor the security services bothered checking! (Its not the ISC's job to do the leg work).

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdcK6JTXsAARP4z?format=jpg&name=medium)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 09:35:48
On a day after they have voted down an amendment which would stop the NHS being sold off during trade deals with the us.

On a day when the Russia report is finally coming out.

Lets announce something to take the proles attention away shall we?
And then followed up by a letter announcing a big squeeze on public sector pay in future pay rounds that gets conveniently buried between the initial announcement and the anticipation of the Russia report. So just the usual shitty spin really.

https://twitter.com/ChrisGiles_/status/1285506546126991365


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 09:45:45
No investigation into Russian interference during brexit (despite strong indications that they would have done following the Scottish referendum and what was known about the US election) because the government didn’t want too

I guess you don’t bite the hand that feeds


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 09:48:42

No smoking gun, but you can see why it was sat on for as long as it could be, the No.10 apin will be interesting.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/21/russia-report-reveals-uk-government-failed-to-address-kremlin-interference-scottish-referendum-brexit?CMP=share_btn_tw

TL:DR the long-awaited "Russia Report" doesn't actually "report" any investigation into "Russia" meddling in the EU referendum, because nobody in government nor the security services bothered checking! .
No smoking gun? That our govt and security services have been so compromised that they no longer bother investigating whether Russia is corrupting our politics? May as well disband MI5 and MI6 now then


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 10:31:24
You mean "toed the party line"?

Yes I did. Thanks for the English lesson.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 10:49:30
Brexit Party leader Nigel Farage says: "Years of lies and smears from Remain politicians and much of our media. There is no evidence of Russian involvement with Leave.EU or me in the referendum. It was all a hoax - apologies are now required."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 11:00:34
Sounds more and more like Trump every day..  he'll be swapping his pint of Bitter for Demestos next..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 11:14:15
Brexit Party leader Nigel Farage says: "Years of lies and smears from Remain politicians and much of our media. There is no evidence of Russian involvement with Leave.EU or me in the referendum. It was all a hoax - apologies are now required."

What a wanker.

He's not an idiot. He would know full well that they just didn't look for the evidence.

And his followers will lap it all up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 11:18:17
So today we have...

Blatantly directing cash into Tory seats and marginals prior to the election https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics/why-brighouse-todmorden-stocksbridge-and-morley-were-chosen-ps36bn-towns-fund-despite-being-graded-low-priority-government-2919522

Getting a bit sleazy with staff https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-53472289 (*)

and the Russia Report and its only just gone mid day.

* This is on top of the three Tory mayors who have been convicted for child sex offences inside the last two years, looks like they have quite the safeguarding problem... 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 17:04:40
Looking forward to tomorrow's PMQ's. Should be the biggest walkover yet. Not that it hasn't been that every week mind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 03:39:39
 :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 07:38:31
Looking forward to tomorrow's PMQ's. Should be the biggest walkover yet. Not that it hasn't been that every week mind.

Starmer v Johnson

Its the difference between intelligent v well educated

Plus Starmer "did this for a living" to paraphrase Get Carter


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 10:57:40
What's with Johnson often putting a pen into his inside pocket about?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 11:01:00
The way he "responded" to Starmer's questions was pathetic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 11:07:34
No be fair, apparently, the UK leads the world in tackling Russia. Extraordinary claim, given the UK officially does not even bother investigating Russian interference in our democratic process.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 11:09:09
No be fair, apparently, the UK leads the world in tackling Russia. Extraordinary claim, given the UK officially does not even bother investigating Russian interference in our democratic process.
"World-leading" appears to be Johnson Newspeak for "abject failure"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 11:10:12
Starmer calmly takes the weak and inept Boris apart. The latter just responds like the loud kid in class when they get humiliated. Name calling, bluff and bluster. Hollow nothingness in his responses. He's an embarrassment to this country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 11:12:02
He's an embarrassment to this country.

Yet the patriots still support him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 11:16:22
Yet the patriots still support him.

Given patroits love their country, I wouldn't call his supporters patriots.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 11:17:12
Given patroits love their country, I wouldn't call his supporters patriots.
True that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 11:18:42
Labour admits libelling staffers and Panaroma around anti-Semitism

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/22/labour-pays-out-six-figure-sum-and-apologises-in-antisemitism-row


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 11:28:28
Given patroits love their country, I wouldn't call his supporters patriots.

I should have put that in '' tongue was firmly in cheek. Interesting how the self termed 'patriots' seem entirely indifferent to foreign interference whilst those they call traitors are a little more concerned.

As for PMQ's most of what he said could have been read directly from a Kremlin press release, all he can do is try to invoke culture war and parrot on about Brexit. Although glad he mentioned appearances on RT.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdhtmqfWoAEHeYF?format=jpg&name=large)

Oh and a fait few Tories have been on as well! https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-attack-on-corbyn-over-russia-today-backfires-own-father-stanley-and-6-tory-mps-appeared-on-channel_uk_59e63667e4b00905bdace290


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 11:41:53
Labour admits libelling staffers and Panaroma around anti-Semitism

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/22/labour-pays-out-six-figure-sum-and-apologises-in-antisemitism-row

I assume this failed then. https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/corbyn-milne-and-formby-attempt-to-stop-labour-apology-1.501779

I wonder whether Labour will now try and claim back (being suggested its £200k damages and around £600k costs) from the three insofar as someone must have authorised the release of what they have now admitted in court were lies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 12:23:38
I should have put that in '' tongue was firmly in cheek. Interesting how the self termed 'patriots' seem entirely indifferent to foreign interference whilst those they call traitors are a little more concerned.

As for PMQ's most of what he said could have been read directly from a Kremlin press release, all he can do is try to invoke culture war and parrot on about Brexit. Although glad he mentioned appearances on RT.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdhtmqfWoAEHeYF?format=jpg&name=large)

Oh and a fait few Tories have been on as well! https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-attack-on-corbyn-over-russia-today-backfires-own-father-stanley-and-6-tory-mps-appeared-on-channel_uk_59e63667e4b00905bdace290

Sorry fella.  Hard to read tongue in check over the internet, and even harder the way politics is now! :-)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 13:42:40
Yet the patriots still support him.

People see what they want to see it seems.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 23, 2020, 11:26:53
So Cummings has now basically taken control of government data, what could go wrong.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Edmb8atXYAAl4hE?format=jpg&name=900x900)

Snuck that one out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Thursday, July 23, 2020, 11:35:30
Substitute the word use/used with manipulation/manipulated and the statement increases in accuracy


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 23, 2020, 12:16:35
Even the Telegraph now admitting that we're not going to be able to agree a deal with the EU now. So not very "oven-ready" after all then?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/21/britain-close-abandoning-hope-brexit-trade-deal/

I wonder at what point do those who voted for Brexit admit to themselves that they've been consistently lied to throughout.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 23, 2020, 12:23:23

I wonder at what point do those who voted for Brexit admit to themselves that they've been consistently lied to throughout.

Some people like being lied to, hence the bizarre world of Cuckold pornography.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, July 23, 2020, 12:30:38
Some people like being lied to, hence the bizarre world of Cuckold pornography.
Ironically the domain of the Tory politician, I know several women in the "sex industry" that can confirm this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, July 23, 2020, 14:55:05
I wonder at what point do those who voted for Brexit admit to themselves that they've been consistently lied to throughout.

I wonder at what point do those who voted for Remain admit to themselves that they've been consistently expecting that telling 17 million people that they are morons will turn out far more productively than it actually does.

(and yes I voted to Remain pretty confident at the time, and now 100% certain, that it was the best thing for our country)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 23, 2020, 14:59:01
I wonder at what point do those who voted for Remain admit to themselves that they've been consistently expecting that telling 17 million people that they are morons will turn out far more productively than it actually does.
That wasn't what I was doing. I know plenty of people who voted to Leave after careful considered thought, having believed the assurances they were given around the ease with which trade deals could be done, that No Deal wasn't an option etc. They were lied to. That's on the people who lied to them, not on them. But it is hard to admit you've been sold a pup, so people tend to have an emotional attachment to their choices. But there surely comes a point where the penny drops.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 23, 2020, 15:42:04
That wasn't what I was doing. I know plenty of people who voted to Leave after careful considered thought, having believed the assurances they were given around the ease with which trade deals could be done, that No Deal wasn't an option etc. They were lied to. That's on the people who lied to them, not on them. But it is hard to admit you've been sold a pup, so people tend to have an emotional attachment to their choices. But there surely comes a point where the penny drops.

Interestingly (well maybe to some) I was listening to a pod about psychology the other day, they noted that a massive problem with the remain campaign and subsequently is that, put simply, you cannot counter peoples ingrained and often long-standing emotions (including prejudices) with facts, the way hoomans are wired it just doesn't work. Cummings and his mates get this, remain never have. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, July 23, 2020, 15:49:33
Interestingly (well maybe to some) I was listening to a pod about psychology the other day, they noted that a massive problem with the remain campaign and subsequently is that, put simply, you cannot counter peoples ingrained and often long-standing emotions (including prejudices) with facts, the way hoomans are wired it just doesn't work. Cummings and his mates get this, remain never have. 

Cognitive dissonance.

A lot of people get very uncomfortable when faced with facts that contradict their beliefs. Many will actually get quite irritable and even upset when faced with something that challenges them. They will then tend look for any way to reconcile the issue, one of which is to simply ignore the facts that show them wrong. This often means attacking (verbally or otherwise) the person that presented the facts.

I encounter it on pretty much a daily basis.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Thursday, July 23, 2020, 17:31:19
That wasn't what I was doing. I know plenty of people who voted to Leave after careful considered thought, having believed the assurances they were given around the ease with which trade deals could be done, that No Deal wasn't an option etc. They were lied to. That's on the people who lied to them, not on them. But it is hard to admit you've been sold a pup, so people tend to have an emotional attachment to their choices. But there surely comes a point where the penny drops.

I struggle to buy that line.  I don't know you personally so you may sincerely believe it, but most Remainers who talk about "thoughtful people innocently duped by master propagandists" are being crudely disingenuous.   They actually mean "you're a moron but I'm not quite prepared to say it to your face".  

The parallel line is "I'm not saying that everyone who voted Leave is a racist but everyone who is a racist voted Leave".  Again totally disingenuous.  Virtually everyone who says that believes that all Leave voters are ignorant racists.

We didn't lose the vote because of any Cummings/Johnson masterplan duping 17m people.  We lost it because we  arrogantly believed that 'these people' would fall in line once their betters explained it to them.  We were wrong and Britain is paying a high price for our complacency.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, July 23, 2020, 18:38:48
I doubt if very many people voted Leave for Economic reasons.

People voted leave because they are sold on the idea of Nationhood - that we should be a Sovereign Country that doesn't join Politically with others

or (sometimes and)

They were fed-up of foreign people rocking up on "their shores"

I'm fairly certain it's one or both of those reasons.  No amount of Economic data is going to sway someone from those fundamentally ideological or emotional viewpoints.

I'm also fairly certain a large % of people who voted Remain only did so because of Economic reasons.  A very small % of the Remain vote would have been because they believed in the 'European Project".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, July 23, 2020, 19:13:09
I bet a fair few voted leave because of the contributions we pay to Europe and the waste they see in EU bureaucracy.

well, more than 2% anyway


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, July 23, 2020, 19:31:08
I bet a fair few voted leave because of the contributions we pay to Europe and the waste they see in EU bureaucracy.

well, more than 2% anyway

I'd roll that into the Sovereignty issue - why pay to belong to something beyond our borders.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Richie Wellen-Dowd on Thursday, July 23, 2020, 20:12:25
Then there's those who see the EU as a neoliberal bully of smaller economies, Greece being the most obvious example, and cowardly ignoring issues like Catalonia.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 23, 2020, 20:27:23
The parallel line is "I'm not saying that everyone who voted Leave is a racist but everyone who is a racist voted Leave".  Again totally disingenuous.  Virtually everyone who says that believes that all Leave voters are ignorant racists.

I have to take issue with that.  Genuinely, I do believe the Leave vote was comprised mainly of people who felt that there was a better future outside the EU - with increased control of our own affairs/sovereignty as a result of trade deals that we would be able to forge elsewhere.  And some racists, who were always going to vote Leave no matter what.

I do believe that the former group were sold a false, unachievable proposition by the Leave campaign - and that this group is becoming increasingly disappointed as reality dawns.  I don't believe that the country is 52% racist.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, July 23, 2020, 20:58:08
I struggle to buy that line.  I don't know you personally so you may sincerely believe it, but most Remainers who talk about "thoughtful people innocently duped by master propagandists" are being crudely disingenuous.   They actually mean "you're a moron but I'm not quite prepared to say it to your face".  

The parallel line is "I'm not saying that everyone who voted Leave is a racist but everyone who is a racist voted Leave".  Again totally disingenuous.  Virtually everyone who says that believes that all Leave voters are ignorant racists.
I've said similar things to both those (to make clear they're not my quotes) and meant both. TBF I think I have proven I have a track record of not being afraid to call someone a moron or a racist or both when I think they are. I don't think most Leave voters are racist; I do think both Leave campaigns used racism in their campaign, Farage/Banks most blatantly but Gove and Johnson were happily dogwhistling away with the lies about Turkish accession too. I've said what I think about lies v ignorance. So, yeah, I do think that and fuck off with your "disingenuous".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, July 24, 2020, 06:05:55
I have to take issue with that.  Genuinely, I do believe the Leave vote was comprised mainly of people who felt that there was a better future outside the EU - with increased control of our own affairs/sovereignty as a result of trade deals that we would be able to forge elsewhere.  And some racists, who were always going to vote Leave no matter what.

I do believe that the former group were sold a false, unachievable proposition by the Leave campaign - and that this group is becoming increasingly disappointed as reality dawns.  I don't believe that the country is 52% racist.

I didn't say that everyone who supported Remain thought that everyone who supported Leave was a racist.  I said that those Remain voters who did say "I'm not saying everyone who votes Leave is a racist ..." were in fact saying precisely that they were all racists. 

It's the same as people who say "No offence but...".  What follows is invariably offensive to the recipient.

Potential Leave voters knew this, resented it, and turned from potential to determined Leave voters.

How were the Leave campaign were able to sell a false, unachievable proposition whilst Remain couldn't sell a true achievable proposition?    I'm suggesting that a major reason was that we didn't sell it effectively and instead simply told people that they were idiots if they didn't vote to Remain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, July 24, 2020, 06:12:06
So, yeah, I do think that and fuck off with your "disingenuous".

And presumably you also think that that attitude didn't contribute to us losing the vote.

I think it did.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, July 24, 2020, 07:43:08
Then there's those who see the EU as a neoliberal bully of smaller economies, Greece being the most obvious example, and cowardly ignoring issues like Catalonia.

I wouldn't call them morons but......................(sorry Pax)

They should perhaps have pondered the impending, craven dependency on the world's most notable neoliberal bully (even if it is less neo-liberal than it professes to be in matters of foreign trade) and a surprisingly high acceptance of racist police executions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 24, 2020, 09:13:58
And presumably you also think that that attitude didn't contribute to us losing the vote.

I think it did.
What "attitude"? That I think lots of people who voted to Leave did so for coherent reasons, but may now reflect that they were sold a pup? Or that I called you out for making broad-brush assumptions about what you presume you know about the way I think? Think perhaps the condescending tone of suggesting people are being "disingenuous" because they haven't said what you think they should have said might be rather more of a problem.

And what "us", come to that. There's no template Leave or Remain voter. The two stereotypes of Leave voters as ignorant racists and Remain voters as bitter metropolitan liberal snobs are both equally fatuous and simplistic. There's a broad spectrum of opinions, of motivations and interests that led people to vote the way they did. You can't shoehorn people into fitting your predefined templates, then call them liars if they don't fit.

How were the Leave campaign were able to sell a false, unachievable proposition whilst Remain couldn't sell a true achievable proposition?    I'm suggesting that a major reason was that we didn't sell it effectively and instead simply told people that they were idiots if they didn't vote to Remain.

Whereas here I would agree with you. The Remain campaign was lazy, entitled and badly out of touch. As a campaign it deserved to lose. And there are still plenty of Remainers perpetuating that stereotype of themselves on Twitter, just as there are many loud Brexiteers on Twitter who fall neatly into the stereotypes about them. Both tend to be easily recognisable by the proliferation of flags on their profiles. But Twitter isn't real life, and the failures of the campaign doesn't necessarily reflect on those who voted either way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Richie Wellen-Dowd on Friday, July 24, 2020, 09:18:34
I wouldn't call them morons but......................(sorry Pax)

They should perhaps have pondered the impending, craven dependency on the world's most notable neoliberal bully (even if it is less neo-liberal than it professes to be in matters of foreign trade) and a surprisingly high acceptance of racist police executions.

I doubt whether anyone with those convictions would place so much emphasis on trade, so I suspect they'd argue we needn't be dependent on the US. A lot of them surely became Reluctant Remainers rather than side with the likes of Farage anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Banker on Friday, July 24, 2020, 11:26:11
....The Remain campaign was lazy, entitled and badly out of touch. As a campaign it deserved to lose........

I've always argued that the 'Remain' campaign actually 'won', as the campaign leadership made absolutely sure it was ineffective.

This prescient and accurate personal observation from four years ago highlights how both Leave and Remain key players had similar backgrounds and aims, are of the same ilk, and belong to the same 'set'...

"....this set began obsessing about Brussels. Ruling Britain was their prerogative..."

https://www.ft.com/content/f4dedd92-43c7-11e6-b22f-79eb4891c97d





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, July 25, 2020, 13:47:14
That Hopkins "thing" trying her best to stay relevant at some kind of Jonathan Pie style attempt at humour. She's just an absolute dick.

But ignoring the bullshit she's spewing out, look at her fucking pupils. Opiods much.

https://www.facebook.com/100003827568125/posts/1948245778646322/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, July 31, 2020, 01:55:01
The most accurate representation of our PM you will ever see.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, July 31, 2020, 17:20:00
Today the Prime Minister of Great Britain nominated for peerages
1) the son of a former KGB general who hosted "bunga bunga" parties that said PM attended (having first carefully dismissed his official security detail) when Foreign Secretary. The son is steeped in Russian oligarchs/security contacts
2) A former leading light in the Revolutionary Communist Party who defended the IRA bombing of Warrington and child pornography on the internet.
3) His own brother

UK 2020: corrupt as fuck.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Banker on Saturday, August 1, 2020, 07:41:25
Goverrnment are being taken to court, apparently. A hefty near million contract awarded to mates of Gove/Cummings, no tendering.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, August 1, 2020, 08:12:35
Today the Prime Minister of Great Britain nominated for peerages
1) the son of a former KGB general who hosted "bunga bunga" parties that said PM attended (having first carefully dismissed his official security detail) when Foreign Secretary. The son is steeped in Russian oligarchs/security contacts
2) A former leading light in the Revolutionary Communist Party who defended the IRA bombing of Warrington and child pornography on the internet.
3) His own brother

UK 2020: corrupt as fuck.


He won't lose too much sleep over this, I'm sure, but Jo Johnson has gone down in my estimations.  He did seem to have principles...but he's also, clearly, a fully signed up member of the 'club'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, August 1, 2020, 10:43:25
Obviously Jo Johnson looks bad as he's a relative, but as an ex-minister who recently retired from parliament he's a fairly normal peerage. Lebedev and Clare Fox are far more dubious nominations.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, August 1, 2020, 11:58:34
Obviously Jo Johnson looks bad as he's a relative, but as an ex-minister who recently retired from parliament he's a fairly normal peerage. Lebedev and Clare Fox are far more dubious nominations.
Indeed. I think we all remember the likes of Legends Lounge, Gosport Rob and Outlet Red spitting their dummies about Corbyn being a "terrorist sympathiser" but not a word from any of them about Johnson putting someone who is on the record as justifying IRA atrocities (and kiddie porn) in the House of Lords. Nothing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jevs on Saturday, August 1, 2020, 12:24:37
Obviously Jo Johnson looks bad as he's a relative, but as an ex-minister who recently retired from parliament he's a fairly normal peerage. Lebedev and Clare Fox are far more dubious nominations.

He was only MP for 9 years and is 49, it would be normal after a long parliamentary career. it's unbelievable nepotism. I suppose we should be surprised that he hasn't included his father and sister. It's the sort of rank corruption UK news high mindedly points out when it occurs in other countries. Theresa May's husband too? Unbelievable


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, August 1, 2020, 14:15:10
He was only MP for 9 years and is 49, it would be normal after a long parliamentary career. it's unbelievable nepotism. I suppose we should be surprised that he hasn't included his father and sister. It's the sort of rank corruption UK news high mindedly points out when it occurs in other countries. Theresa May's husband too? Unbelievable

You’ll fit in well here 😉


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jevs on Saturday, August 1, 2020, 14:45:15
You’ll fit in well here 😉

Has the newbie put his foot in it here? I'm a bit confused?

I would have thought whatever political persuasion you have, appointments to the House of Lords are dodgy as you like. I was a fan of Ian Botham as a cricketer but I do not know what qualifies him for a position in the Lords.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, August 1, 2020, 14:57:53
You’ll fit in well here 😉
No comment on paedo-defender and friend of the IRA, Claire Fox in the Lords then? Happy to just let that pass?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, August 1, 2020, 15:15:15
I would have thought whatever political persuasion you have, appointments to the House of Lords are dodgy as you like. I was a fan of Ian Botham as a cricketer but I do not know what qualifies him for a position in the Lords.

He supported Brexit, enjoys a bevvie.  And, importantly, he's Johnson's mate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jevs on Saturday, August 1, 2020, 15:25:35
He supported Brexit, enjoys a bevvie.  And, importantly, he's Johnson's mate.

By that criteria I'm surprised Farage isn't in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Saturday, August 1, 2020, 15:37:54
Has the newbie put his foot in it here? I'm a bit confused?

I would have thought whatever political persuasion you have, appointments to the House of Lords are dodgy as you like. I was a fan of Ian Botham as a cricketer but I do not know what qualifies him for a position in the Lords.

No, Legends Lounge is a prick.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, August 1, 2020, 16:26:07
No, Legends Lounge is a prick.

👍🤣


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, August 2, 2020, 07:03:47
No comment on paedo-defender and friend of the IRA, Claire Fox in the Lords then? Happy to just let that pass?
As three Tory mayors have been convicted of child sex offences over the last couple of years Fox will fit in just fine.

Add to the mix the various far right figures associated with Waxy Lemon who have been similarly convicted and draw ones own conclusions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, August 3, 2020, 09:58:35
Things that will get you suspended from the Conservative Party:
Voting with your conscience
Following correct parliamentary procedure to ensure a report on foreign interference in UK public life is published

Things that won't get you suspended from the Conservative Party:
Being arrested for a rape so brutal the victim needed hospital treatment


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, August 3, 2020, 10:06:56
Things that won't get you suspended from the Conservative Party:
Being arrested for a rape so brutal the victim needed hospital treatment

I do think there's a bit of complexity here - the suggestion is that the MP involved hasn't been named publicly (although obviously there's mass speculation on the internet) as it would effectively identify the victim, who has a right to anonymity. Suspending the whip publicly would presumably do the same. I'd hope the MP in question has been told to stay off the parliamentary estate etc. and the lack of a formal suspension is simply to do with trying to maintain some degree of anonymity.

But perhaps that's just me trying to see the best in a party that perhaps don't deserve the benefit of the doubt at the moment.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, August 3, 2020, 10:15:19
I can't find 54 year old Mark Francois Twitter account anymore.  (ok he didn't have one)

In a separate thing that is no way linked, how old was this Tory that is under investigation?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, August 3, 2020, 10:16:20
I do think there's a bit of complexity here - the suggestion is that the MP involved hasn't been named publicly (although obviously there's mass speculation on the internet) as it would effectively identify the victim, who has a right to anonymity. Suspending the whip publicly would presumably do the same. I'd hope the MP in question has been told to stay off the parliamentary estate etc. and the lack of a formal suspension is simply to do with trying to maintain some degree of anonymity.

But perhaps that's just me trying to see the best in a party that perhaps don't deserve the benefit of the doubt at the moment.

That's one potential argument. He might also be innocent. (Not trying to claim he is innocent, just that he might be)

What there is certainly no excuse for, however, is Moggy sitting on it for at least a month. Presumably to help cover up a mate. That should be a sackable offence, regardless of whether or not the accused is innocent or guilty.

Nothing will happen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, August 3, 2020, 13:32:47
Isn't the norm that suspect isn't named until charged, fact he is a MP should be little different.

Away so not read much about this, but I dont understand why it has all kicked off with inspector knacker this weekend yet JRM and the Chief Whip have known for weeks, suggests that the victim went to the party before the rozzers?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, August 3, 2020, 13:41:31
Isn't the norm that suspect isn't named until charged, fact he is a MP should be little different.

Away so not read much about this, but I dont understand why it has all kicked off with inspector knacker this weekend yet JRM and the Chief Whip have known for weeks, suggests that the victim went to the party before the rozzers?

From what I can gather, she did go to the party first, and is now complaining that nothing was being done about it. It looks like Moggie was just hoping it would disappear. That's how it appears to me anyway, I could be wrong.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Monday, August 3, 2020, 14:36:12
Isn't the norm that suspect isn't named until charged, fact he is a MP should be little different.

Unfortunately, the suspect in a case is very often named before (s)he is charged,although official communications from the Police do not give names.  For MPs, the law was changed in 2016, when it was deemed by the then Justice Secretary, Chris Grayling no less, that MPs needed more protection.

And certainly, Flashheart, the presumption of innocence protects no-one at all these days.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: brocklesby red on Monday, August 3, 2020, 15:20:14
I can't find 54 year old Mark Francois Twitter account anymore.  (ok he didn't have one)

In a separate thing that is no way linked, how old was this Tory that is under investigation?
The said Tory is in his 50’s and an ex minister so plenty to pick from


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, August 3, 2020, 15:55:26
[quote="brocklesby red]The said Tory is in his 50’s and an ex minister so plenty to pick from[/quote]

How many are there really?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, August 3, 2020, 15:58:46
David Cameron?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: brocklesby red on Monday, August 3, 2020, 17:35:23
How many are there really?
At least 30 according to a quick look on Wikipedia




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, August 4, 2020, 07:22:03
So, having not just voted through the "oven ready" Withdrawal Agreement that he fought an election campaigning for, but also voted to rush it through Parliament in 3 days to "get Brexit done", ignoring protests that this would prevent proper scrutiny, Iain Duncan Smith is now whinging that the Withdrawal Agreement that he voted for isn't a good deal after all because of some stuff "buried in the fine print, unnoticed by many" due to the lack of proper scrutiny that he voted to prevent. This is world-beating stupid.

https://twitter.com/MPIainDS/status/1290292766514135040


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, August 4, 2020, 10:23:13
Never has 'didn't know what you were voting for' been more apt.

Penny drops.  Brexiter finally realises that Brexit is a bit shit.  It's almost funny.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, August 4, 2020, 10:46:56
So, having not just voted through the "oven ready" Withdrawal Agreement that he fought an election campaigning for, but also voted to rush it through Parliament in 3 days to "get Brexit done", ignoring protests that this would prevent proper scrutiny, Iain Duncan Smith is now whinging that the Withdrawal Agreement that he voted for isn't a good deal after all because of some stuff "buried in the fine print, unnoticed by many" due to the lack of proper scrutiny that he voted to prevent. This is world-beating stupid.

https://twitter.com/MPIainDS/status/1290292766514135040

Surely it's their job to read the small print and make sure these 'nasties' are spotted? Jesus wept.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, August 4, 2020, 11:29:47
Surely it's their job to read the small print and make sure these 'nasties' are spotted? Jesus wept.
Well yes. That's why it was so unusual that they rushed it through in 3 days, which denied Parliament the chance to scrutinise it properly, sweeping aside all objections that such scrutiny was vital for such an important agreement. IDS voted for that as well as the WA itself and is no wailing about not just the agreement itself but also the lack of scrutiny that he campaigned and voted for. It's almost like they're a bunch of fucking idiots who couldn't be trusted to run a bath, isn't it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Tuesday, August 4, 2020, 11:37:28
It would be some relief if you could just ignore them as idealogues, but they are not.  There is no ideology, strategy or philosophy apart from 'Let me have power'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, August 4, 2020, 11:42:15
what a fucktard IDS is


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, August 4, 2020, 12:04:41
Surely it's their job to read the small print and make sure these 'nasties' are spotted? Jesus wept.
Some MP's did their job and voted against it because it was shite, they were the more intelligent ones who subsequently lost the whip.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Tuesday, August 4, 2020, 12:24:33
More success...

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-operation-brock-coming-back-amid-risk-of-no-uk-eu-trade-deal-2020-8?r=US&IR=T

There's already a bit pre-blaming lorry drivers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Tuesday, August 4, 2020, 12:44:28
Most importantly, there will be no "ever closer union". That's what I voted for (or against).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, August 4, 2020, 13:10:14
Quote from: donkey
More success...

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-operation-brock-coming-back-amid-risk-of-no-uk-eu-trade-deal-2020-8?r=US&IR=T (https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-operation-brock-coming-back-amid-risk-of-no-uk-eu-trade-deal-2020-8?r=US&IR=T)

There's already a bit pre-blaming lorry drivers.


spectacular clusterfuck


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, August 4, 2020, 13:12:31
More success...

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-operation-brock-coming-back-amid-risk-of-no-uk-eu-trade-deal-2020-8?r=US&IR=T

There's already a bit pre-blaming lorry drivers.
There's also a plan apparently to have an internal border preventing lorry drivers from entering Kent without the correct paperwork.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, August 4, 2020, 14:08:24
There's also a plan apparently to have an internal border preventing lorry drivers from entering Kent without the correct paperwork.
That will be peak Johnson, he has already managed to create a border within the Union accelerating its break up, creating a border within England will be an even greater achievement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, August 12, 2020, 09:21:05
GDP fell 20.4% from April-June, the worst quarter on record. It's slightly artificial because large sectors of the economy were shut down completely and some of those will now have resumed functioning, but many won't. By way of comparison, in the worst quarter of the 2008 recession, GDP fell by 2.2%, 1980 was 2% and even in 1931 the worst quarterly fall was 5.1%. And I doubt we've seen the worst of it yet, certainly in terms of job losses. There is one hell of a storm coming.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 12, 2020, 09:22:29
And I doubt we've seen the worst of it yet, certainly in terms of job losses. There is one hell of a storm coming.

Undoubtedly so, this is just the aperitif to January.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Wednesday, August 12, 2020, 09:33:32
Quick, we must get more 'migrants in boats' stories out there to try and deflect


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, August 12, 2020, 09:36:15
Quick, we must get more 'migrants in boats' stories out there to try and deflect
I think at this time of grave national crisis it's important that govt ministers are concentrating on the serious issues facing the nation. Like getting into twitter spats with ice cream companies. There's a sign of the mature leadership the nation needs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, August 12, 2020, 09:55:05
GDP fell 20.4% from April-June, the worst quarter on record. It's slightly artificial because large sectors of the economy were shut down completely and some of those will now have resumed functioning, but many won't. By way of comparison, in the worst quarter of the 2008 recession, GDP fell by 2.2%, 1980 was 2% and even in 1931 the worst quarterly fall was 5.1%. And I doubt we've seen the worst of it yet, certainly in terms of job losses. There is one hell of a storm coming.

This coming crisis was what I was pointing out the other day with particular reference to football..... I would say the future of Div 3/4 foootball is still very much in the balance.  I can't get interested in whcih traialist we sign etc, the important thing being, we get through to September and start seeing some games played, even if BCD, in the hope of a phased return of some fans maybe in the NY.  Another lockdown for Swindon, which atm is in the PO slots, could potentially finish the job.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, August 12, 2020, 10:06:20
Quick, we must get more 'migrants in boats' stories out there to try and deflect

The Government have selected the teaching unions and their members for blame.  The Mail reading classes see Marxists in every staff room, rather than the mainly slightly right wing caring people of reality, who are just trying to get some clarity in order to follow the Government's own guidelines on H and S.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BoA Vagabond on Wednesday, August 12, 2020, 10:34:03
The Government have selected the teaching unions and their members for blame.  The Mail reading classes see Marxists in every staff room, rather than the mainly slightly right wing caring people of reality, who are just trying to get some clarity in order to follow the Government's own guidelines on H and S.
Quite agree Reg. How dare Teachers be concerned for the safety of their pupils, colleagues, the families, the community and of course, themselves? Met one marxist , or near, in 26 years of working with teachers. I find most to be moderate and probably many are Tory voters. Known lots of Union officials who vote Tory and one is a local Tory politician. Can't tell the Mail readers that as reality doesn't fit their bullshit. Results days are going to be interesting...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, August 12, 2020, 10:40:39
The Government have selected the teaching unions and their members for blame. 
For the migrants in boats? That would be bizarre even for this govt :)

I assume you actually mean for the recession, think you're right, although they'll be more than happy to spread the blame around, teachers, the EU, basically anyone who's not the govt or one of their mates they corruptly awarded a fat contract to so they could steal billions from the country.

Every Western nation is going to be facing a recession the like of which we've never seen in the wake of COVID. But much like the public health crisis, what will differentiate is those govts that are interested in tackling the problem, versus those that just try to manage the headlines. We've seen how well part 1 of that has gone here with the public health crisis and over 60,000 excess deaths. Not looking forward to the economic follow-up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 12, 2020, 12:04:37
Every Western nation is going to be facing a recession the like of which we've never seen in the wake of COVID.

I don't think the governments of any others are dim/callous enough to inflict economic suicide of their population simultaneously though?

As an aside, I tell you what, I am presently enjoying the pleasurable experience of reading the Planning for the Future White Paper with a view to replying to the consultation. Good god the contents of that are going to go down like the proverbial lead balloon in the Tory heartlands of little England!

Wonder whether this will be the straw to break the camels back.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, August 14, 2020, 12:36:04
I am getting to quite like the Scottish Parliament, its everything our parliament isn't.

This is rather brutal though...

https://twitter.com/SpillerOfTea/status/1293538220144287745?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, August 14, 2020, 15:06:38
Johnson doing his "dead in a ditch" shtick again

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-13/johnson-says-irish-sea-border-over-my-dead-body-as-checks-loom

He signed a border in the Irish Sea into the Withdrawal Agreement in Oct 2019. His "oven-ready" deal. That he agreed, signed and fought an election on. And now this shit. There's no longer a political price to pay for blatantly and provably lying.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, August 17, 2020, 15:09:34
(Another) U-turn confirmed.

When's the last time a government has had to make this many u-turns?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Monday, August 17, 2020, 15:30:11
Do you know what, I am starting to wonder if this lot know what they are doing


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, August 17, 2020, 15:46:58
Quote from: michael
Do you know what, I am starting to wonder if this lot know what they are doing

cynic


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, August 17, 2020, 15:54:36
(Another) U-turn confirmed.

When's the last time a government has had to make this many u-turns?

The most embarrassing bit is they had a weeks notice and still could not avoid it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, August 17, 2020, 16:54:13
(Another) U-turn confirmed.

When's the last time a government has had to make this many u-turns?
TBF it was originally a C-turn but it got downgraded to a U-turn by Cummings' algorithm

(Stolen from Armando Ianucci)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Monday, August 17, 2020, 16:59:47
TBF it was originally a C-turn but it got downgraded to a U-turn by Cummings' algorithm

(Stolen from Armando Ianucci)

It was an N and a T turn as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, August 17, 2020, 23:17:04
Just realised that 'the British Government' is an anagram of "Be nethermost thriving"

Well, how uncanny?!  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BoA Vagabond on Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 08:10:55
Don't recall hearing what the PM thinks of the exam grade fiasco. I did wonder if Dom had told him yet! :D
I expect he will intervene today and sort it all out.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 08:36:53
Johnson is on holiday.

it's sorted out now


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 08:54:39
That will be peak Johnson, he has already managed to create a border within the Union accelerating its break up, creating a border within England will be an even greater achievement.

It's a shame we can't have a border between Wiltshire & Oxfordshire to stop them buying up our cheaper houses 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BoA Vagabond on Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 09:03:40
Johnson is on holiday.

it's sorted out now
Good for him. I hope he is having a good time.
Gav has done well as more students than ever before will now, as a result of the Governments timely intervention, be off to University and many at their original first choice. There was me thinking it was a fiasco.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 09:10:02
Don't recall hearing what the PM thinks of the exam grade fiasco.
He thinks it's all fine: this is what he said on Thursday "Let's be in no doubt about it, the exam results that we've got today are robust, they're good, they're dependable for employers."

As Andrew Neil (of all people) said in reply "Not a single claim in that sentence was true, was it Prime Minister?"
https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1295420050715947009


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 10:28:49
I don't know what people expect when you have a habitual liar as prime minister,and a part time one at that. Surrounded by a rabble of previously sacked idiot's due to incompetence, dishonesty, downright stupidity, etc. They're so bad that even members of their own party resigned, distance themselves from them.

I do take heart from conversations I'm having lately with people who voted Tory last time and are seeing through the lies. I never try to force my views on others or sway their votes. They openly stated this to me. They feel cheated. The far left trying to undermine Starmer are not helping when the government are there for the taking. A realistic and unified opposition should be able to take this sham government apart.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 10:47:07

I do take heart from conversations I'm having lately with people who voted Tory last time and are seeing through the lies.

One small thing from the shambles of the last week is that it may have turned a generation against the party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 10:49:04
I don't know what people expect when you have a habitual liar as prime minister,and a part time one at that. Surrounded by a rabble of previously sacked idiot's due to incompetence, dishonesty, downright stupidity, etc. They're so bad that even members of their own party resigned, distance themselves from them.

I do take heart from conversations I'm having lately with people who voted Tory last time and are seeing through the lies. I never try to force my views on others or sway their votes. They openly stated this to me. They feel cheated. The far left trying to undermine Starmer are not helping when the government are there for the taking. A realistic and unified opposition should be able to take this sham government apart.

You need to remember that the Tories clunked to the right, to try and fend off Farage, and take back those voters resident there..... atm those who feel cheated want to see something much more authoritarian.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 10:53:13
Quote
I do take heart from conversations I'm having lately with people who voted Tory last time and are seeing through the lies. I never try to force my views on others or sway their votes. They openly stated this to me. They feel cheated. The far left trying to undermine Starmer are not helping when the government are there for the taking. A realistic and unified opposition should be able to take this sham government apart.
I think you have it in a nutshell. The latter being important in that when push comes to shove there's got to be a untied and credible alternative.

Still seeing people post things like 'yeah it's crap, but Labour would have messed it up more'. Obviously Tory. But the Labour party have to get to a point of credibility where any sane person can see it's nonsense.

Unfortunately it's (almost certainly) a long time until the next election


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 08:30:18
The below is  compiled by a user of Twitter and can be found at https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1295772678163517443.html thus I take no credit for its context, however, I know many have palpitations about using Twitter so included below in its entirety, remember this is the week up to Yesterday....

It’s Tuesday, #TheWeekInTory is already 80 points long, and I’m very sorry you have to read it.

And even more sorry I had to write the bloody thing.

Anyway, here goes.
1. The govt announced quarantine for people returning from France

2. It waited until everyone had made travel plans, then brought the policy forwards 24 hours

3. And then an MP using the name “Grant Shapps” helpfully told everybody the wrong date for the start of quarantine
4. Irony’s own Bermuda Triangle, Priti Patel, said migrants were only coming here because the French are all racist and Germans torture people

5. Days after MoD said Patel’s plans for channel protection were “completely potty”, the Navy refused to send warships into the Channel
6. And the UN said her ideas were “very troubling” and would cause “fatal incidents”

7. The govt proceeded with plans to end the furlough scheme, after think-tanks predicted would cost 2 million jobs
8. Universal Credit requires £11bn extra investment to make it cope with current levels of claims, and here come another £2m

9. So naturally, the govt made applications for Universal Credit “online only”, after removing 4000 computers from libraries and job centres since 2015
10. The govt claimed 90% of homeless people were helped off the streets, but data actually showed rough-sleeping rose sharply

11. So govt will scrap the ban on evictions in 5 days’ time, predicted to cause 220,000 extra people in England to become homeless just as winter starts
12. The National Residential Landlords Association said the ban on evictions was “an unnecessary hindrance to our members”

13. 28% of Tory MPs are landlords, and I'm going to mark that down as "an incredible coincidence" and ask no further questions
14. News of unnecessary hindrances brings me to top fireplace salesman Gavin Williamson. He started the week modestly, with a cheery pledge to starve 175,000 children of immigrants, by stopping their free meals while their families cannot legally work or claim benefits
15. All the way back in the mists of time (in May) the govt instructed Ofqual to tell teachers to spend hours per-pupil creating estimated grades, which were reviewed and approved by headteachers
16. But then toothsome mantis Gavin Williamson decided teachers know less than quickly-written and badly-tested software does, and commissioned an algorithm to invent grades for this year's students, based largely on totally different students from different years
17. The Royal Statistical Society (RSS) offered to help assess the outcome of the algorithm after staff at Dept for Education raised concerns. But the govt put barriers in the way which would prevent the RSS from operating properly for 5 years. So they couldn't help.
18. Gavin Williamson is on record instructing Ofqual to design a system that could not allow grade inflation

19. But this week, in a wildly unpredictable turn of events, he blamed Ofqual for - brace yourself - designing a system that did not allow grade inflation
20. But private schools did get grade inflation, an average 8x the increase state schools got

21. On average, 40% of state schools results were downgraded, and in Northern England it was as high as 84%

22. In some subjects, 98.9% of results from private schools were inflated
23. The Times reports the govt still plans to use the algorithm for GCSE’s, but will not downgrade any results, only upgrade them: which only benefits private schools

24. And then a maelstrom of policy changes began: first, students were barred from appealing against results
25. Then they were permitted to appeal results, at a cost of £113 per exam

26. Then it was announced schools would pay the fees, even though schools are not only closed, but broke, having had £7bn cut from their budget by Tories
27. And then it was announced the appeals would be free, even though Ofqual has no facilities to handle that number of appeals

28. And then they cancelled the appeals program completely

29. All that appeals stuff happened in just 48 hours
30. When Scotland used the algorithm, it led to a crisis and had to be abandoned, and Tories called for the Scottish Education Minister to resign

31. Regardless, the UK govt implemented the algorithm that had just been proven to fail, and seemed surprised when it failed
32. The Minister of Innovation said A-Levels don’t matter as much as “grit and determination”, and his failure at Harrow “taught me how to hustle”. He is the 5th Lord Bethan, and “hustled” his way to a hereditary peerage as a result of his Dad dying. Good hustling, dude!
33. Gavin Williamson said there would be “No U-turn, no change”, which I think he got from a sign outside a toll-booth on the M6

34. Boris Johnson said, “be in no doubt about it, the exam results that we've got today are robust, they're good, they're dependable for employers”
35. The Daily Mail – yes, even them – reported the govt only changed its mind after the headmaster of Eton – yes, even them – complained about the unfairness

36. The UK Equalities Watchdog warned it would intervene because the algorithm results were discriminatory
37. Gavin Williamson claimed he only spotted the flaws “at the weekend”, but hours later it was revealed the Commons Education Dept warned him of all these flaws and dangers, in person, and then in a report sent to him on 10th July
38. On the steps of Downing St the day he became PM, Johnson said “My job is to make sure your kids get a superb education, wherever you are from. I will take personal responsibility. The buck stops here”.
39. Boris Johnson is busy “glamping”, so in his absence it was decided the buck stops at the head of Ofqual, who simply followed ministerial instructions; and at Gavin Williamson’s permanent secretary, who was unceremoniously sacked for doing what his boss told him
40. Meanwhile, Williamson felt the best use of his time was to pose for a photo with little on his desk but a cup, a seemingly empty file, and a whip (for reasons that bewilder, but are in keeping with his apparent background as a mildly disturbing minor Addams Family character)
41. Winston Churchill’s grandson, a Tory MP, said of Gavin Williamson “what could have been in the Prime Minister’s mind that led him to appoint so mere, so unreliable, so wholly unsuitable a man to one of the most important jobs in Government”
42. A Tory MP said “It was as clear as day that there would be an issue, given what happened in Scotland, yet they fucked around”

43. A poetic Tory MP said the govt was “wanking into the void”, and if that’s not the name of a band by midnight, what’s the point of anything?
44. There are now calls for Ofqual to be abolished and replaced with something that will probably be worse, but as yet no news on which unqualified but vaguely aristocratic Tory MP’s wife will run it. I'll keep you posted.
45. Meanwhile, Gavin Williamson had promised to provide laptops to disadvantaged students during the lockdown, but only half the required laptops were delivered, and 27 Academy Trusts got just 1 laptop each, to be shared between over 2000 students
46. After the stunning success of this bit of Artificial Intelligence, the govt announced plans to boost Whitehall AI spending by £200m. The money will go to Faculty AI, which has links to [checks notes] a Mr Dominic Cummings, resident of Whitehall and Specsavers in Durham
47. Rumours that the govt has an algorithm that turns every minister into Chris Grayling are unfounded

48. Chris Grayling – I mean, Gavin Williamson - now has to persuade parents that he’s competent enough to make schools safe for their kids to return. Good luck with that, Gav.
49. The govt had 5 months to plan and execute one exam policy affecting 335,000 students

50. The govt now has 4 months to plan and execute over 2000 Brexit policies affecting 67 million of us, and every business in the country. Brace, brace.
51. On the subject of Brexit, this week Boris Johnson said there would only be a customs border in the Irish Sea “over my dead body”.

52. The same Boris Johnson signed the Withdrawal Agreement that creates a customs border in the Irish sea
53. Trade Secretary and part-time punchline Liz Truss promised “I will consign these unfair tariffs to the bin of history” when she makes her stern demands in a trade deal between USA (world’s biggest economy) and UK (2% of global trade). I bet the USA is shitting itself.
54. Meanwhile, after Liz Truss sang the praises of a potential deal with NZ (value: 4% of the trade we will lose with a No Deal Brexit) the NZ deputy PM said “Britain is not match fit for trade talks” and was “beset with inertia”
55. Boris Johnson promised “lower costs and a bonfire of red tape” as a result of Brexit

56. So imagine my shock when this week the govt pledge £355m to help companies in NI deal with “a new wave of red tape”
57. The govt scrapped Public Health England in the middle of a pandemic. Cos that’s what we need. Not testing. Just a new sign over a door.
.
58. It then appointed Dido Harding to the replacement organisation, even though the replacement organisation didn’t exist at the time
59. Some notes on Dido Harding, in case you're unfamiliar with her impressive record of failing upwards

60. The Evening Standard – a Tory-supporting paper – wrote of her “Dido Harding's utter ignorance is a lesson to us all”
61. She ran the programme that spent 15x the worldwide average building a tracing app that she was told wouldn’t work, unsurprisingly didn’t work work, and which it then scrapped without publishing accounts of where that £13m went
62. She runs Test and Trace, described as “not fit for purpose, let alone world-beating” by the chair of NHS Providers

63. Her £100m Test and Trace programme traced only 56% of cases, compared with Blackburn council, who traced 98% without a penny of new funding
64. She is a Tory peer, married to a Tory MP, who is adviser to a group that campaigns for the defunding, break-up and sale of the NHS; and if you wanted that, putting somebody famous for "utter ignorance" in charge would be a good first step
65. She’s on the board of The Jockey Club, which is based in Matt Hancock’s constituency and gave tens of thousands in donations to Matt Hancock, and then coincidentally got dispensation to stay open for 180,000 unwitting fans when the Covid 19 outbreak began
66. A major Jockey Club sponsor is Randox, to whom her husband is an adviser, and which coincidentally got a £133m contract to produce testing kits without any other providers being allowed to bid for the work

67. Her husband – get this – is a “Govt Anti-Corruption Champion”
68. More govt anti-corruption, and Serco got a £108m contract, just months after it was fined £2.6m for buggering up a previous contract. The minister awarding the contract? A former Serco lobbyist. Chief exec of Serco? A Tory MP.
69. Meanwhile, Medical Examiners have been instructed not to make public the results of investigations into hundreds of deaths of NHS workers who didn’t have PPE

70. The value of utterly useless PPE rose from a mere £50m last week to £300m this week
71. And who got the contracts for useless PPE? A company part-owned by a friend and advisor to Liz Trust. Did I say Trust? I meant Truss. Definitely not Trust.
72. Meanwhile, Sajid Javid, employed full-time as an MP, also took a job at banking giant JP Morgan; cos if the last 10 years has taught us anything, it’s that there’s no danger in MPs or bankers not fully concentrating on what they’re doing
73. The Royal Society issued a report saying relaxing the lockdown early would “inflate deaths and deepen recession”

74. So obviously, the govt relaxed the lockdown in Leicester
75. The Chief Exec of the care home charity CIC said the care sector was “being left to prepare for a second wave alone” as it has received no advice or assistance from govt

76. 10% of care home residents died of Covid in the first half of this year. Not laughing now, are you
77. Weeks after it was proven Russia was regularly attempting to pervert UK democracy, a report found “an ongoing risk of cyber security incidents within Cabinet Office due to the vulnerability of legacy IT systems”, and Michael Gove is directly responsible for fixing it
78. Michael Gove was found to use an insecure email account under the name “Mrs Blurt” (and boasting of blurting as a way of deterring spies is, shall we say, novel) to discuss govt business with Dominic Cummings. So I don’t have terribly high hopes
79. The govt continued to focus on the big stuff, by converting a privy council room in number 9 Downing St into a TV studio it dubbed “the best in the world” – but then again, isn’t everything in this list?
80. The “best in the world” studio isn’t big enough to fit socially distanced journalists, the PM hasn’t even got an official spokesman, and Civil Service regulations prevent one from being appointed but the govt hadn’t realised that


It’s Tuesday. We have 3 more days of this week to go.

But remember, it would have been much worse under any other party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 09:15:22
I started reading that amused, finished reading it utterly depresed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 09:17:24
I started reading that amused, finished reading it utterly depresed.
He does one every week, quite often two a week because (like this week) the start of the week is such an utter shitshow by mid week he's already got too much for just one list.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jevs on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 09:23:18
The below is  compiled by a user of Twitter and can be found at https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1295772678163517443.html thus I take no credit for its context, however, I know many have palpitations about using Twitter so included below in its entirety, remember this is the week up to Yesterday....

It’s Tuesday, #TheWeekInTory is already 80 points long, and I’m very sorry you have to read it.

And even more sorry I had to write the bloody thing.

Anyway, here goes.
1. The govt announced quarantine for people returning from France

2. It waited until everyone had made travel plans, then brought the policy forwards 24 hours

3. And then an MP using the name “Grant Shapps” helpfully told everybody the wrong date for the start of quarantine
4. Irony’s own Bermuda Triangle, Priti Patel, said migrants were only coming here because the French are all racist and Germans torture people

5. Days after MoD said Patel’s plans for channel protection were “completely potty”, the Navy refused to send warships into the Channel
6. And the UN said her ideas were “very troubling” and would cause “fatal incidents”

7. The govt proceeded with plans to end the furlough scheme, after think-tanks predicted would cost 2 million jobs
8. Universal Credit requires £11bn extra investment to make it cope with current levels of claims, and here come another £2m

9. So naturally, the govt made applications for Universal Credit “online only”, after removing 4000 computers from libraries and job centres since 2015
10. The govt claimed 90% of homeless people were helped off the streets, but data actually showed rough-sleeping rose sharply

11. So govt will scrap the ban on evictions in 5 days’ time, predicted to cause 220,000 extra people in England to become homeless just as winter starts
12. The National Residential Landlords Association said the ban on evictions was “an unnecessary hindrance to our members”

13. 28% of Tory MPs are landlords, and I'm going to mark that down as "an incredible coincidence" and ask no further questions
14. News of unnecessary hindrances brings me to top fireplace salesman Gavin Williamson. He started the week modestly, with a cheery pledge to starve 175,000 children of immigrants, by stopping their free meals while their families cannot legally work or claim benefits
15. All the way back in the mists of time (in May) the govt instructed Ofqual to tell teachers to spend hours per-pupil creating estimated grades, which were reviewed and approved by headteachers
16. But then toothsome mantis Gavin Williamson decided teachers know less than quickly-written and badly-tested software does, and commissioned an algorithm to invent grades for this year's students, based largely on totally different students from different years
17. The Royal Statistical Society (RSS) offered to help assess the outcome of the algorithm after staff at Dept for Education raised concerns. But the govt put barriers in the way which would prevent the RSS from operating properly for 5 years. So they couldn't help.
18. Gavin Williamson is on record instructing Ofqual to design a system that could not allow grade inflation

19. But this week, in a wildly unpredictable turn of events, he blamed Ofqual for - brace yourself - designing a system that did not allow grade inflation
20. But private schools did get grade inflation, an average 8x the increase state schools got

21. On average, 40% of state schools results were downgraded, and in Northern England it was as high as 84%

22. In some subjects, 98.9% of results from private schools were inflated
23. The Times reports the govt still plans to use the algorithm for GCSE’s, but will not downgrade any results, only upgrade them: which only benefits private schools

24. And then a maelstrom of policy changes began: first, students were barred from appealing against results
25. Then they were permitted to appeal results, at a cost of £113 per exam

26. Then it was announced schools would pay the fees, even though schools are not only closed, but broke, having had £7bn cut from their budget by Tories
27. And then it was announced the appeals would be free, even though Ofqual has no facilities to handle that number of appeals

28. And then they cancelled the appeals program completely

29. All that appeals stuff happened in just 48 hours
30. When Scotland used the algorithm, it led to a crisis and had to be abandoned, and Tories called for the Scottish Education Minister to resign

31. Regardless, the UK govt implemented the algorithm that had just been proven to fail, and seemed surprised when it failed
32. The Minister of Innovation said A-Levels don’t matter as much as “grit and determination”, and his failure at Harrow “taught me how to hustle”. He is the 5th Lord Bethan, and “hustled” his way to a hereditary peerage as a result of his Dad dying. Good hustling, dude!
33. Gavin Williamson said there would be “No U-turn, no change”, which I think he got from a sign outside a toll-booth on the M6

34. Boris Johnson said, “be in no doubt about it, the exam results that we've got today are robust, they're good, they're dependable for employers”
35. The Daily Mail – yes, even them – reported the govt only changed its mind after the headmaster of Eton – yes, even them – complained about the unfairness

36. The UK Equalities Watchdog warned it would intervene because the algorithm results were discriminatory
37. Gavin Williamson claimed he only spotted the flaws “at the weekend”, but hours later it was revealed the Commons Education Dept warned him of all these flaws and dangers, in person, and then in a report sent to him on 10th July
38. On the steps of Downing St the day he became PM, Johnson said “My job is to make sure your kids get a superb education, wherever you are from. I will take personal responsibility. The buck stops here”.
39. Boris Johnson is busy “glamping”, so in his absence it was decided the buck stops at the head of Ofqual, who simply followed ministerial instructions; and at Gavin Williamson’s permanent secretary, who was unceremoniously sacked for doing what his boss told him
40. Meanwhile, Williamson felt the best use of his time was to pose for a photo with little on his desk but a cup, a seemingly empty file, and a whip (for reasons that bewilder, but are in keeping with his apparent background as a mildly disturbing minor Addams Family character)
41. Winston Churchill’s grandson, a Tory MP, said of Gavin Williamson “what could have been in the Prime Minister’s mind that led him to appoint so mere, so unreliable, so wholly unsuitable a man to one of the most important jobs in Government”
42. A Tory MP said “It was as clear as day that there would be an issue, given what happened in Scotland, yet they fucked around”

43. A poetic Tory MP said the govt was “wanking into the void”, and if that’s not the name of a band by midnight, what’s the point of anything?
44. There are now calls for Ofqual to be abolished and replaced with something that will probably be worse, but as yet no news on which unqualified but vaguely aristocratic Tory MP’s wife will run it. I'll keep you posted.
45. Meanwhile, Gavin Williamson had promised to provide laptops to disadvantaged students during the lockdown, but only half the required laptops were delivered, and 27 Academy Trusts got just 1 laptop each, to be shared between over 2000 students
46. After the stunning success of this bit of Artificial Intelligence, the govt announced plans to boost Whitehall AI spending by £200m. The money will go to Faculty AI, which has links to [checks notes] a Mr Dominic Cummings, resident of Whitehall and Specsavers in Durham
47. Rumours that the govt has an algorithm that turns every minister into Chris Grayling are unfounded

48. Chris Grayling – I mean, Gavin Williamson - now has to persuade parents that he’s competent enough to make schools safe for their kids to return. Good luck with that, Gav.
49. The govt had 5 months to plan and execute one exam policy affecting 335,000 students

50. The govt now has 4 months to plan and execute over 2000 Brexit policies affecting 67 million of us, and every business in the country. Brace, brace.
51. On the subject of Brexit, this week Boris Johnson said there would only be a customs border in the Irish Sea “over my dead body”.

52. The same Boris Johnson signed the Withdrawal Agreement that creates a customs border in the Irish sea
53. Trade Secretary and part-time punchline Liz Truss promised “I will consign these unfair tariffs to the bin of history” when she makes her stern demands in a trade deal between USA (world’s biggest economy) and UK (2% of global trade). I bet the USA is shitting itself.
54. Meanwhile, after Liz Truss sang the praises of a potential deal with NZ (value: 4% of the trade we will lose with a No Deal Brexit) the NZ deputy PM said “Britain is not match fit for trade talks” and was “beset with inertia”
55. Boris Johnson promised “lower costs and a bonfire of red tape” as a result of Brexit

56. So imagine my shock when this week the govt pledge £355m to help companies in NI deal with “a new wave of red tape”
57. The govt scrapped Public Health England in the middle of a pandemic. Cos that’s what we need. Not testing. Just a new sign over a door.
.
58. It then appointed Dido Harding to the replacement organisation, even though the replacement organisation didn’t exist at the time
59. Some notes on Dido Harding, in case you're unfamiliar with her impressive record of failing upwards

60. The Evening Standard – a Tory-supporting paper – wrote of her “Dido Harding's utter ignorance is a lesson to us all”
61. She ran the programme that spent 15x the worldwide average building a tracing app that she was told wouldn’t work, unsurprisingly didn’t work work, and which it then scrapped without publishing accounts of where that £13m went
62. She runs Test and Trace, described as “not fit for purpose, let alone world-beating” by the chair of NHS Providers

63. Her £100m Test and Trace programme traced only 56% of cases, compared with Blackburn council, who traced 98% without a penny of new funding
64. She is a Tory peer, married to a Tory MP, who is adviser to a group that campaigns for the defunding, break-up and sale of the NHS; and if you wanted that, putting somebody famous for "utter ignorance" in charge would be a good first step
65. She’s on the board of The Jockey Club, which is based in Matt Hancock’s constituency and gave tens of thousands in donations to Matt Hancock, and then coincidentally got dispensation to stay open for 180,000 unwitting fans when the Covid 19 outbreak began
66. A major Jockey Club sponsor is Randox, to whom her husband is an adviser, and which coincidentally got a £133m contract to produce testing kits without any other providers being allowed to bid for the work

67. Her husband – get this – is a “Govt Anti-Corruption Champion”
68. More govt anti-corruption, and Serco got a £108m contract, just months after it was fined £2.6m for buggering up a previous contract. The minister awarding the contract? A former Serco lobbyist. Chief exec of Serco? A Tory MP.
69. Meanwhile, Medical Examiners have been instructed not to make public the results of investigations into hundreds of deaths of NHS workers who didn’t have PPE

70. The value of utterly useless PPE rose from a mere £50m last week to £300m this week
71. And who got the contracts for useless PPE? A company part-owned by a friend and advisor to Liz Trust. Did I say Trust? I meant Truss. Definitely not Trust.
72. Meanwhile, Sajid Javid, employed full-time as an MP, also took a job at banking giant JP Morgan; cos if the last 10 years has taught us anything, it’s that there’s no danger in MPs or bankers not fully concentrating on what they’re doing
73. The Royal Society issued a report saying relaxing the lockdown early would “inflate deaths and deepen recession”

74. So obviously, the govt relaxed the lockdown in Leicester
75. The Chief Exec of the care home charity CIC said the care sector was “being left to prepare for a second wave alone” as it has received no advice or assistance from govt

76. 10% of care home residents died of Covid in the first half of this year. Not laughing now, are you
77. Weeks after it was proven Russia was regularly attempting to pervert UK democracy, a report found “an ongoing risk of cyber security incidents within Cabinet Office due to the vulnerability of legacy IT systems”, and Michael Gove is directly responsible for fixing it
78. Michael Gove was found to use an insecure email account under the name “Mrs Blurt” (and boasting of blurting as a way of deterring spies is, shall we say, novel) to discuss govt business with Dominic Cummings. So I don’t have terribly high hopes
79. The govt continued to focus on the big stuff, by converting a privy council room in number 9 Downing St into a TV studio it dubbed “the best in the world” – but then again, isn’t everything in this list?
80. The “best in the world” studio isn’t big enough to fit socially distanced journalists, the PM hasn’t even got an official spokesman, and Civil Service regulations prevent one from being appointed but the govt hadn’t realised that


It’s Tuesday. We have 3 more days of this week to go.

But remember, it would have been much worse under any other party.

Yeah, but they are getting Brexit 'done'. What could go wrong?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 09:25:11
Its amazing considering parliament is in recess that they are able to fuck things up quite so comprehensively without even being at work.

It's almost as if they doing it on purpose.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 09:32:29
Its amazing considering parliament is in recess that they are able to fuck things up quite so comprehensively without even being at work.

It's almost as if they doing it on purpose.

Problem is that with the majority the public have given them it was not even possible to get parliament recalled during the A Level shit show.

We are basically living in a self imposed dictatorship run by shysters and corruption, but its want the people voted for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 09:33:20
Thanks for sharing that. First time I've seen it and have given them a follow


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 09:44:28
Problem is that with the majority the public have given them it was not even possible to get parliament recalled during the A Level shit show.

We are basically living in a self imposed dictatorship run by shysters and corruption, but its want the people voted for.

The problem is that although large numbers of the electorate favour a sort of benign dictatorship, they only want it if efficient at confrming their prejuduces, and maintaining their material wealth.  Although predictably useless, they know that Johnson's crew "get" this fundamantal point and in their own inefficient way are working towards that end.  

Therefore they continue to support as Cummings chops away at the foundations of what is generally understood as our democracy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 10:20:29
https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/16075788.no-cause-alarm-hondas-brexit-fears-say-town-mps/

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-8000851/Closing-date-Hondas-Swindon-car-factory-confirmed-July-2021.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 10:25:18
https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/16075788.no-cause-alarm-hondas-brexit-fears-say-town-mps/

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-8000851/Closing-date-Hondas-Swindon-car-factory-confirmed-July-2021.html

That's not new news is it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 10:37:50
That's not new news is it?
I think the confirmation of the closure date as July is. But I wouldn't go to the sword on it, popped up on my twitter timeline


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 10:43:09
I think the confirmation of the closure date as July is. But I wouldn't go to the sword on it, popped up on my twitter timeline

The piece you link is dated Feb 2020?

Anyway when they do close next year it will all be down to C-19.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 10:44:00
The piece you link is dated Feb 2020?

Anyway when they do close next year it will all be down to C-19.
Lazy cut and pasting from twitter on my part then, apologies


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 11:19:22
The problem is that although large numbers of the electorate favour a sort of benign dictatorship, they only want it if efficient at confrming their prejuduces, and maintaining their material wealth.  Although predictably useless, they know that Johnson's crew "get" this fundamantal point and in their own inefficient way are working towards that end. 

Therefore they continue to support as Cummings chops away at the foundations of what is generally understood as our democracy.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfuA1qZXsAUUL-k?format=jpg&name=900x900)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 11:25:03
Just moving through thoughts on the A levels / GCSE fiasco.  So now the uni's are putting pressure on the government for more funding for medical places as they have filled them up prior to the idiotic flip-floppery of Bradford universities finest alumni Frank Spencer lookalike and fireplace salesman.

So the taxpayer may have to put more funding in so the uni's can have a larger cohort this year.  So is the likely result of this that next year the cohort is reduce?  So the heartbreak may continue.  And we have to pay for it.  Wonder where they'll get the money for that.

The money and heartbreak these fucks casually toss at anyone outside their immediate circle of friends is breathtaking.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 12:18:07
Oh good god, noted brain person Toby Young doesn't think appointing Dido Harding was a good idea

edit - which i've just noticed this is noted in another thread


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jevs on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 12:38:22
Oh good god, noted brain person Toby Young doesn't think appointing Dido Harding was a good idea

edit - which i've just noticed this is noted in another thread

Nor even the Daily Johnson;

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/18/dido-hardings-unstoppable-upward-rise-egregious-example-chumocracy/


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 18:21:22
not content with fucking up the A-Levels, Pearson have, at 4:30pm before results day, apparently decided to not release level 1 and level 2 BTECresults tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1296126808505700354?s=19 (https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1296126808505700354?s=19)

my son, who was discouraged from doing PE at GCSE because he didn't play sport at a high enough level (excuse or genuinly a requirement by the school I know not) was doing a BTEC instead.

This was needed in order to get into his college course...

thankfully given its modular by design he has enough evidence to show he was on for merit/distinction  - if the college accept that evidence..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 18:45:42
not content with fucking up the A-Levels, Pearson have, at 4:30pm before results day, apparently decided to not release level 1 and level 2 BTECresults tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1296126808505700354?s=19 (https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1296126808505700354?s=19)

my son, who was discouraged from doing PE at GCSE because he didn't play sport at a high enough level (excuse or genuinly a requirement by the school I know not) was doing a BTEC instead.

This was needed in order to get into his college course...

thankfully given its modular by design he has enough evidence to show he was on for merit/distinction  - if the college accept that evidence..

Whichever exam board it is, what a fucking disgrace.  Hope your lad's gonna be ok.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 18:48:32
yeah my bad, only Pearson do btec.

thanks. He's neevous enough as it is, so we'll tell him in the morning.

in any case it's his science that's the biggest worry! how can someone competent at maths struggle in science I ask you!

anyway there are always options and second chances of you're willing to work for them.

good luck to anyone else with results out


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 22:26:42
yeah my bad, only Pearson do btec.

thanks. He's neevous enough as it is, so we'll tell him in the morning.

good luck to anyone else with results out

He should be alright regarding anything portfolio/vocational based, so try and reassure/encourage him that he will get his merit/distinction.

Not easy times for anyone getting results. They usually are nervy moments as it is but with the shitshow that has been on display recently this is a fairly unique moment. Hopefully there will never be a moment fuck up like this again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, August 20, 2020, 09:04:21
yeah my bad, only Pearson do btec.

thanks. He's neevous enough as it is, so we'll tell him in the morning.

in any case it's his science that's the biggest worry! how can someone competent at maths struggle in science I ask you!

anyway there are always options and second chances of you're willing to work for them.

good luck to anyone else with results out
Hope he gets/has got the results he needed Batch. Best from all of us!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, August 20, 2020, 09:13:10
er, thanks.

science didn't go to plan, so may need a rethink :(


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, August 20, 2020, 09:26:01
er, thanks.

science didn't go to plan, so may need a rethink :(

Hope things get sorted out!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, August 20, 2020, 09:53:51
he's in!

commonweal so impressive in getting back to us.

🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, August 20, 2020, 10:11:28
he's in!

commonweal so impressive in getting back to us.

🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺

Great news.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, August 20, 2020, 10:18:45
thanks all


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, August 20, 2020, 10:51:43
he's in!

commonweal so impressive in getting back to us.

🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺
Brilliant, delighted for you and him. Is he doing the C6 football programme? Heard really good things about that (some of my eldest's mates did it and loved it)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, August 20, 2020, 10:53:34
Excellent.  Well done.  My eldest got through all her GCSE and is now on to the next stage going to Bristol to study Event Production BTEC.  Massively relieved and proud.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, August 20, 2020, 11:38:32
no, he trialled but didn't get in to the football.

the were rumours of a third team


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, August 20, 2020, 15:05:05
Astonishingly*, it turns out that a firm run by mates of Gove and Cummings was awarded a contract without tender to "advise" Ofqual on the A-level grades fiasco, in June. That's on top of the £840k this same firm was given by Gove's cabinet office to research the public's attitude toward the govt's handling of COVID and the £116k they got from the Dept of Health to "lock in the learning" of the mistakes made in dealing with COVID. Again, all without tender, obviously.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/20/firm-linked-to-gove-and-cummings-hired-to-work-with-ofqual-on-a-levels

So at least somone is doing well out of these serial fuck-ups. Cummings learned lots of useful things while he was "working" in Russia for 3 years didn't he? It's not quite Putin levels of corruption, but give them time they've only been in office for just over a year.




* This may be sarcastic


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, August 20, 2020, 16:04:38
Quote from: Saxondale
Excellent.  Well done.  My eldest got through all her GCSE and is now on to the next stage going to Bristol to study Event Production BTEC.  Massively relieved and proud.

brilliant. congratulations mini Sax


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, August 20, 2020, 17:34:27
Thanks Batch!  Delighted not to have the trauma of her being distraught tonight.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, August 21, 2020, 09:04:55
Excellent.  Well done.  My eldest got through all her GCSE and is now on to the next stage going to Bristol to study Event Production BTEC.  Massively relieved and proud.
Missed this yesterday, congratulations.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, August 21, 2020, 09:05:42
Thanks PD.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Friday, August 21, 2020, 09:16:56
Missed this yesterday, congratulations.

Yep, second that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, August 21, 2020, 09:32:08
So, our Prime Minster who has a long and well documented history of secreting kids all over the place....

Has gone on a camping holiday, in Scotland, in midge season.

I love my daughter to death, but even I would not go camping with a 4 month old baby!

On come on...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, August 21, 2020, 10:21:30
So, our Prime Minster who has a long and well documented history of secreting kids all over the place....

Has gone on a camping holiday, in Scotland, in midge season.

I love my daughter to death, but even I would not go camping with a 4 month old baby!

On come on...

One of my old school friends that I keep in contact with recently had his 15 minutes of fame filming a video of him camping in the Cairngorms and getting eaten alive by midges.

I can remember playing football after school up there and being attacked by the little bleeders!!

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/scotland-now/scot-covered-bites-after-midge-22534995


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, August 21, 2020, 12:10:27
Congrats to Batch 'n' Sax Junior and to anyone else studying, thus receiving any results regarding education, further learning, self-improvement et al. Here's to the results you are aiming for in advance and congrats if already achieved.

Oh and fellas (and/or ladies), I think you've earned yourself a glass of something.


RE: BoJo and Midges. There's a certain inverse irony of some horrible little creature getting eaten to bits by a horrible little creature. Although I do feel for the latter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, August 21, 2020, 12:28:48
cheers Bambi


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, August 21, 2020, 13:19:28
RE: BoJo and Midges. There's a certain inverse irony of some horrible little creature getting eaten to bits by a horrible little creature. Although I do feel for the latter.

From a Mustique villa 8 months ago, to a tent on the edge of a cliff is a pretty perfect metaphor for where the PM’s taken the country, tbh.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, August 21, 2020, 14:34:36
Now we are pushing the previously pro Union Welsh administration away, nice https://www.ft.com/content/3b0cdbce-c858-4749-bae8-0e6b7ed6c007


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Friday, August 21, 2020, 14:38:15
From a Mustique villa 8 months ago, to a tent on the edge of a cliff is a pretty perfect metaphor for where the PM’s taken the country, tbh.

Next stage is floating in the middle of the sea in a dinghy


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, August 21, 2020, 16:29:27
From a Mustique villa 8 months ago, to a tent on the edge of a cliff is a pretty perfect metaphor for where the PM’s taken the country, tbh.
That's assuming he actually is in/near that tent and not in Mustique again. There's quite a bit of scepticism that the Mail's piece which is basically just some photos of a cottage and a tent that looks like it's just been put up for the photo and then a separate photo of Johnson, looking a bit like he might be camping (cos he's got a woolly hat on innit?) is just a put up and that he's actually nowhere near there.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, August 21, 2020, 17:22:40
That's assuming he actually is in/near that tent and not in Mustique again. There's quite a bit of scepticism that the Mail's piece which is basically just some photos of a cottage and a tent that looks like it's just been put up for the photo and then a separate photo of Johnson, looking a bit like he might be camping (cos he's got a woolly hat on innit?) is just a put up and that he's actually nowhere near there.
Comparing a photo from the other weekend (VJ day) and the photo in the Mail he is having a roaring time, looks to have put a couple of stone on at least.

I am sure that the Russian Oligarchs yacht that happens to be moored off shore is entirely coincidental...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, August 21, 2020, 17:33:18
...(VJ day) and the photo in the Mail he is having a roaring time, looks to have put on a couple of stone on at least.

That'll be the hiatus from the alleged raging coke habit, no doubt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Friday, August 21, 2020, 20:20:26

Has gone on a camping holiday, in Scotland, in midge season.


Not quite though, they've just put up a bell tent next to the house he is staying in. Consensus is that the bell tent is so poorly erected that there's no way anyone can stay in it, especially with the weather they get on the Scottist coasts.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8650799/Boriss-Great-Escape-PM-flees-tent-moves-Old-School-House-remote-peninsula.html

This is more likely: https://twitter.com/rupertg/status/1296555222639292418?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, August 21, 2020, 20:31:19
How the fuck can anyone put up a Bell Tent wrong? I seen and erected many a model of tent and in terms of any that need poles and guy ropes...a Bell Tent is as easy as it comes. Had it been a Yurt then excusable, much more of a semi-permanent structure but even "fridge boy" could erect a Bell.

Maybe he should have sought help from his friend of the orange variety? He is on record of having absolutely zero, none at all, not any issue with any erection problems at all.

Like a baby's arm holding a peach that guy. More like a harvest mouse holding a porcini, going on reports.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, August 26, 2020, 11:12:14
Tony Abbott, widely derided as possibly the worst PM Australia has ever had, is being imported to help Liz Truss with Brexit trade negotiations

https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/tony-abbott-granted-travel-exemption-to-take-on-uk-brexit-job-20200826-p55pnv.html

Liz Truss clearly needs help (on so many fronts) but surely the one thing we're not short of in this govt is wildly incompetent politicians who will fuck things up. Not sure we need to start importing Australia's failures to do this for us, we have plenty of great British talent with a proven track record of making a real horse's arse of things from start to finish.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 26, 2020, 11:46:00
In the meantime https://twitter.com/Trade_EU/status/1297798385328685057?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Wednesday, August 26, 2020, 12:29:17
In the meantime https://twitter.com/Trade_EU/status/1297798385328685057?s=20

Can anyone out their explain to me the upside of Brexit?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, August 26, 2020, 12:32:08
blue passports.

and a perception of less brown faces, and taking back control.

no, I don't get it either


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 26, 2020, 13:09:51
Tony Abbott, widely derided as possibly the worst PM Australia has ever had, is being imported to help Liz Truss with Brexit trade negotiations

https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/tony-abbott-granted-travel-exemption-to-take-on-uk-brexit-job-20200826-p55pnv.html

Liz Truss clearly needs help (on so many fronts) but surely the one thing we're not short of in this govt is wildly incompetent politicians who will fuck things up. Not sure we need to start importing Australia's failures to do this for us, we have plenty of great British talent with a proven track record of making a real horse's arse of things from start to finish.

As noted by Mike Rann, a former Australian high commissioner to the UK:

“Britain asking Tony Abbott to run its trade negotiations would be about as credible as Australia asking Gavin Williamson to take charge of its education system.”

But just don't mention unelected foreign bureaucrats!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BoA Vagabond on Wednesday, August 26, 2020, 14:22:58
Can anyone out their explain to me the upside of Brexit?
Sorry, I can't help and I haven't had a reasonable argument from anyone yet to explain how I am/will be better off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Wednesday, August 26, 2020, 14:37:04
Wait until the Brexit unicorn flys over the skies, lavishing everyone with piles of money, blue passports and hoovering up foreigners


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, August 26, 2020, 14:56:24
Sorry, I can't help and I haven't had a reasonable argument from anyone yet to explain how I am/will be better off.
TBF I think a lot of those who voted Leave don't believe we will be better off, at least not in the short term, but they voted Leave because they wanted to leave the EU as a political union i.e. it was a political rather than an economic choice, notwithstanding the very many lies from the Leave campaign (on the side of buses or otherwise) that we would somehow be better off financially as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, August 26, 2020, 15:23:58
TBF I think a lot of those who voted Leave don't believe we will be better off, at least not in the short term, but they voted Leave because they wanted to leave the EU as a political union i.e. it was a political rather than an economic choice, notwithstanding the very many lies from the Leave campaign (on the side of buses or otherwise) that we would somehow be better off financially as well.

I agree, although I don't think anyone signed up on the understanding that they would end up demonstrably worse off.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EgQB2TsXYAEFKm5?format=jpg&name=medium)



Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, August 27, 2020, 18:44:38
Quote from: pauld
Is he doing the C6 football programme? Heard really good things about that (some of my eldest's mates did it and loved it)

he is now! they stood up a third team.

I think it's going to be good for him, he loves his football - and if he doesn't work to standard he doesn't do it.

did need to swap an a level around. economics for psychology. which I wasn't initially thrilled over, bit it was always his third subject and I think he'd truely hate economics to be honest


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, August 27, 2020, 20:59:51
he is now! they stood up a third team.

I think it's going to be good for him, he loves his football - and if he doesn't work to standard he doesn't do it.

did need to swap an a level around. economics for psychology. which I wasn't initially thrilled over, bit it was always his third subject and I think he'd truely hate economics to be honest
Yay, brilliant, go Batch Jr. Chuffed for him!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Saturday, August 29, 2020, 08:32:36
So Matt Hancock is going to change the law to enable lots of others apart from doctors to administer vaccinations. So wtf have nurses, pharmacists, nursing auxiliaries etc been doing these past twenty or thirty years? Breaking the law? You rarely see a doctor vaccinating. For God's sake  can we have someone who knows at least the basics in charge?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, August 29, 2020, 09:11:13
I got my flu vaccine in Morrisons Chippenham.

truly the heisenberg of supermarkets


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, August 29, 2020, 21:35:00
Icke... Coronavirus Rally. Except all I took from this was that it was generally more an anti-government protest on his part.

Surely he's just using the veil of the "Covid Conspirators" to enable his own agenda?Why aren't those conspirators understanding that they too are just being used?

https://www.facebook.com/671907927/posts/10158243033972928/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, August 30, 2020, 13:15:36
The UK Cabinet Office (Gove and Cummings) boasting of "growing the customs sector for EU trade in 2021"

https://twitter.com/cabinetofficeuk/status/1299649242114469889

Now not just admitting that Brexit will cause mountains of red tape, but boasting about it as a "growth sector". Presumably because it will be about the only growth sector in the UK economy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Sunday, August 30, 2020, 13:20:45
.....and with Tony Abbott doing the 'trade deals', the world is our oyster so far as destroying everyday life in the UK is concerned. Good ol' Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 2, 2020, 11:14:57
Jesus he is offensive and dreadful at PMQ's, highlight was him making inane slurs about Starmer and the IRA, when his government are responsible for appointing a woman who condoned IRA killing of children to the House of Lords.

Whilst Bolton and Trafford came out of lock down last night (against the wishes of the LA's) one U turn later and they are back under lock down now!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 2, 2020, 12:46:38
And refusing to meet the families of COVID victims (after previously promising he would for the TV cameras) because "they are in litigation against the government" (they're not). Classy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, September 3, 2020, 08:07:07
Julia Hartley-Brewer.

I find Lineker a bit sanctimonious at times. But he is now offering to actually DO something to help somebody in need, and perhaps encourage others to do the same. Yet, all he gets from that poisonous witch is venom spat at him.

Some of them really hate it when other people do good stuff for others, don't they? It's not as though she's being expected to do the same thing as he is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 3, 2020, 08:30:49
Julia Hartley-Brewer.

I find Lineker a bit sanctimonious at times. But he is now offering to actually DO something to help somebody in need, and perhaps encourage others to do the same. Yet, all he gets from that poisonous witch is venom spat at him.

Some of them really hate it when other people do good stuff for others, don't they? It's not as though she's being expected to do the same thing as he is.

She definitely sits in the Priti Patel area...

She is basically a fortnum and masons Hatey Cockpins.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: normy on Thursday, September 3, 2020, 09:39:42
I just saw a video which showed a pregnant woman being arrested in Victoria, Australia, for incitement material on Facebook  against covid restrictions. . I didn't see the post, but it left me uneasy, was it a thought crime, or a genuine threat to society? How far can you go expressing personal opinions before getting arrested?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 3, 2020, 09:49:42
I just saw a video which showed a pregnant woman being arrested in Victoria, Australia, for incitement material on Facebook  against covid restrictions. . I didn't see the post, but it left me uneasy, was it a thought crime, or a genuine threat to society? How far can you go expressing personal opinions before getting arrested?
Not very far at all in some instances. It's like when the coppers get involved with 15yr old kids abusing footballers on Twitter. Obviously, their behaviour is abhorrent, and they should have their Twitter account removed or whatever, but does it really merit police action? Yet set against that, you have the likes of Hopkins, Farage, Trump et al actively advocating racial hatred and violence with no comeback.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, September 3, 2020, 09:57:33
Julia Hartley-Brewer.

I find Lineker a bit sanctimonious at times. But he is now offering to actually DO something to help somebody in need, and perhaps encourage others to do the same. Yet, all he gets from that poisonous witch is venom spat at him.

Some of them really hate it when other people do good stuff for others, don't they? It's not as though she's being expected to do the same thing as he is.

Some of the twitter comments are just ridiculous.

It’s a bit like me being approached by someone from a stroke charity at a railway station to see if I want to give to their charity and me fucking their bucket out onto a platform and jumping up and down and screaming ‘BUT WHAT ABOUT CANCER OR DIABETES, WAAAAAH!’

Social media is the pits for this. Very little positivity and a whole lorry load of negative shit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 3, 2020, 10:33:32
Not saying Mancocks interview with Kay Burley went badly this morning, but off the back of it he has got  “Jimmy Savile”, “Rolf Harris”, “Fred West”, and “Adolf Hitler” trending on Twitter!

Kay Burley - “Tony Abbott is a homophobe and a misogynist”

Hatt Mancock  - “He’s also an expert on trade”


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, September 3, 2020, 12:16:16
As Tony Abbott gets to work on dismantling any shred of favourable trade deal for the UK, his beaming and supportive Tory hype man, Matt Hancock was quick to jump to his defence:

'He's also an expert on trade.'

Well if trading misogynist and homophobic slurs is his expertise then he's going to fit in just fine.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, September 3, 2020, 12:42:07
It's highly amusing how the likes of Hancock come out to defend the indefensible and make such a fucking shit job of it. This cabinet are literally the barrel scrapings of that abominable party of theirs.
Boris as usual was trounced in yesterday's PMQ'S too. I think in his biggest embarrassment to date as PM.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, September 3, 2020, 19:10:26
The LDs did "win" a referendum on Proportional Representation.

But they were sold a pup by the Tories with an obscure version of it offered to the voters.  This could never have caught the simple "fair votes" appeal of such a system.  Clegg was very weak.

Ironically a "fair votes" system may have helped Farage but long term it would have been, well, er, fairer.  Which is what democracy is about (or supposed to be).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 4, 2020, 08:18:25
Is there literally nothing they won't lie about.

https://fullfact.org/health/suicides-decrease-coronavirus-matt-hancock/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 4, 2020, 15:05:28
Interesting response to a FoI request, not sure that's in the sprit of the Act...


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhEtvYMWsAIYU8I?format=png&name=large)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 8, 2020, 11:13:29
Remember that "oven-ready" Brexit deal? The one that Johnson fought an election on, won an 80-seat majority for and voted into law with much trumpeting and self-congratulation in January? Yeah, that one, 8 months later Johnson now says it "never made sense" apparently

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/07/brexit-deal-never-made-sense-boris-johnson-tell-eu/

How do the people who voted for this "nonsense" feel about this?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, September 8, 2020, 11:53:29
They probably think he is playing Star Wars Chess with the EU


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, September 8, 2020, 12:12:21
"rodomontade"

I just learned this word from an article in Le Monde about, well you guess...

Rodomontade (which can also be spelled "rhodomontade") originated in Italian poetry. Rodomonte was a fierce and boastful king in Orlando Innamorato, Count Matteo M. Boiardo's late 15th century epic, and later in the sequel Orlando Furioso, written by poet Lodovico Ariosto in 1516. In the late 16th century, English speakers began to use "rodomont" as a noun meaning "braggart." Soon afterwards, "rodomontade" entered the language as a noun (meaning "empty bluster" or "bragging speech") and later as an adjective (meaning "boastful" or "ranting"). The noun "rodomont" is no longer used in English, but "rodomontade" is still with us.

Would be fun to potentially blindside a JRM or BJ by introducing this word in a question when they next rant on about vassal states and all such BS picked up from their expensively acquired educations.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 8, 2020, 12:22:06
They probably think he is playing Star Wars Chess with the EU
tbf I was genuinely curious as Johnson has effectively told everyone who voted for him that what they voted for makes no sense. He's pretty much calling his own supporters a bunch of mugs


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, September 8, 2020, 12:26:17
tbf I was genuinely curious as Johnson has effectively told everyone who voted for him that what they voted for makes no sense. He's pretty much calling his own supporters a bunch of mugs

Trump has been doing it for years, they lap it up, all part of the great plan to over throw the Liberal Elite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 8, 2020, 12:29:30
Jesus. The govt have now confirmed that they are knowingly and deliberately breaking international law with the overriding of the Withdrawal Act. And risking the Northern Ireland Peace deal into the bargain. Reckless doesn't begin to cover it.

https://twitter.com/AdamJSchwarz/status/1303307680329740288

No wonder the govt's most senior lawyer has resigned. Buckland should follow suit if he has any self-respect


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, September 8, 2020, 12:49:51
tbf I was genuinely curious as Johnson has effectively told everyone who voted for him that what they voted for makes no sense. He's pretty much calling his own supporters a bunch of mugs
Brexit deal never made sense’ says man who negotiated it, signed it, prevented MPs from scrutinising it, campaigned for it and won a general election on the back of it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 8, 2020, 14:45:29
Jesus. The govt have now confirmed that they are knowingly and deliberately breaking international law with the overriding of the Withdrawal Act.


This is after taking the moral high ground and getting all snooty with China for breaking international law re Hong Kong just a couple of weeks back.

This exchange in the commons is ridiculous, we have a government that now things its accpetbale to break the law and also to be completely open about it!

https://twitter.com/PaulbernalUK/status/1303346233398956033?s=20


No wonder the govt's most senior lawyer has resigned. Buckland should follow suit if he has any self-respect


He has resigned as it would be a breach of the civil service code (and the ministerial code, incidentally) which obliges them to follow the law, including international law.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 8, 2020, 15:20:17
He has resigned as it would be a breach of the civil service code (and the ministerial code, incidentally) which obliges them to follow the law, including international law.
Indeed and the same applies to QCs, hence my suggestion re Buckland as it goes double for him


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 8, 2020, 16:21:54
Anyway enough of this nonsense, I am of out to break the law in a very specific and limited way, that's apparently an acceptable defence now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Tuesday, September 8, 2020, 16:28:05
I see they voted against amendments to the fire safety act in light of the grenfell enquiry.

Including the MP for the area in which Grenfell Tower was. Good luck avoiding your constituents is all i will say on that!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 8, 2020, 16:31:13
TBF to Johnson he is being forced down this route as some buffoon signed up to this Agreement which apparently never made sense, I hope that he seeks the resignation of that idiot!

https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1303087336931106817?s=20

In a civilized grown up country this should be a resigning matter for both Lord Chancellor, who has sworn an oath to uphold the rule of law, and the Attorney General. Neither can, with any integrity, serve under a government explicitly committed to breaking the law.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Tuesday, September 8, 2020, 16:44:21
Anyway enough of this nonsense, I am of out to break the law in a very specific and limited way, that's apparently an acceptable defence now.

Im off to Barnard Castle to rob a bank.  And Im not wearing my glasses.  Anyone got a child I can stick in the back of my car to make it more interesting?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, September 8, 2020, 17:05:05
Can't stand what this country has become.  Shifty as fuck.  Untrustworthy.  Dodgy & unreliable.  These chancers in government do not speak for me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, September 8, 2020, 17:15:43
^^^^ yup

worked in America, copied here. Power at any cost


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, September 8, 2020, 21:06:52
In light of today's news, the quality is shit but you can't really spend much time making this lot look good.

In any case, I'd rather have a bowl of...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 9, 2020, 06:06:08
I see they voted against amendments to the fire safety act in light of the grenfell enquiry.

Including the MP for the area in which Grenfell Tower was. Good luck avoiding your constituents is all i will say on that!
And Teresa May who promised to implement the results of any enquiry when she was PM. But yeah, it's only poor people isn't it? Let em burn.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Wednesday, September 9, 2020, 06:31:34
Hancock blaming the public who are not showing Covid symptoms and booking tests for the renewed test chaos. Didn’t they say not too long ago that everyone who thinks they may have it regardless of symptoms had a duty to take a test ?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, September 9, 2020, 07:35:21
Quite!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 9, 2020, 08:15:41
Hancock blaming the public who are not showing Covid symptoms and booking tests for the renewed test chaos. Didn’t they say not too long ago that everyone who thinks they may have it regardless of symptoms had a duty to take a test ?

They have just done a massive fucking survey randomly testing people. one would imagine that put quite the strain or and as the results came out at the weekend also potentially account for the positive spike?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 9, 2020, 08:43:54
And Teresa May who promised to implement the results of any enquiry when she was PM. But yeah, it's only poor people isn't it? Let em burn.

May make them get some common sense....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 9, 2020, 11:47:21
Bit of a dull PMQ's this week, followed normal process question asked, not answered, BREXIT, CORBYN/ UNIONS.

Thought Starmer played a decent game really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Wednesday, September 9, 2020, 20:16:53
Does the Labour Party still exist?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, September 10, 2020, 15:56:51
BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54097320)

This is starting to feel like the end game.  Five years ago, we'd all have been pretty shocked at the prospect of UK government openly announcing its plans to break international law.  In the Trump/Brexit era, it seems a little less shocking.  But the approach is about to get an important test.  I'm still not sure if Brexit is going to fall flat on its face, or whether the Johnson govt sails past this and goes on to lead this country to (even more) uncharted waters.  But we're going to find out soon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 10, 2020, 15:59:50
BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54097320)

This is starting to feel like the end game.  Five years ago, we'd all have been pretty shocked at the prospect of UK government openly announcing its plans to break international law.  In the Trump/Brexit era, it seems a little less shocking.  But the approach is about to get an important test.  I'm still not sure if Brexit is going to fall flat on its face, or whether the Johnson govt sails past this and goes on to lead this country to (even more) uncharted waters.  But we're going to find out soon.

It takes a special skill to fall out with the EU and the US on the same day, Pelosi has been incredibly strident that taking this route will hole any trade bill with the US below the waterline.

As I read earlier, the Tory government had already backed itself into a corner, that corner has just got considerably smaller!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 10, 2020, 16:09:17
BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54097320)

This is starting to feel like the end game.
Nah, it's just part of an ongoing rolling clusterfuck. Like Trump, Johnson's govt has no clear programme, no idea what they actually want to do other than be in office. They need an external enemy to fight against, to rally the "base" around so they can detract attention from that. So they're provoking a scrap with the EU because they feel on safe ground doing the nationalist Brexit warrior bullshit and it detracts attention from the car crash that is their handling of COVID and the economy. You know, actual governing. Same with Trump, he's always happiest shouting "LAW AND ORDER" and talking up the "threat" from enemies internal and external ("Radical Left Dems, Antifa, BLM, Chiiiinnaa" blah blah) than he is actually running the country. Because he's shit at that. But he talks a good fight. This isn't the end of anything, it's only the start of what will be a series of increasingly wild and unlawful but dramatic distractions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, September 10, 2020, 16:13:54
What I think you're overlooking is that Johnson's popularity is on the wane.  He isn't Teflon any more.  And neither is Cummings.  The political capital account is running low.  There's only so much nonsense that even the 'base' are going to support.  A leaf through the comments section under most Daily Telegraph articles demonstrates clearly that he's no longer the Messiah.

(I'll leave someone else to complete the message.)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, September 10, 2020, 16:27:50
..he's a cock juggling thundercunt?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 10, 2020, 16:28:41
What I think you're overlooking is that Johnson's popularity is on the wane.  He isn't Teflon any more.  And neither is Cummings.  The political capital account is running low.  There's only so much nonsense that even the 'base' are going to support.  A leaf through the comments section under most Daily Telegraph articles demonstrates clearly that he's no longer the Messiah.

(I'll leave someone else to complete the message.)
Assuming Cummings still sees the old High Tories as the "base". Johnson may well do, Cummings is building the English Nationalist Party, the shell of the old Tory Party is just a launch pad for that. And Johnson is expendable


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 10, 2020, 17:37:24
What I think you're overlooking is that Johnson's popularity is on the wane.  He isn't Teflon any more.  And neither is Cummings.  The political capital account is running low.  There's only so much nonsense that even the 'base' are going to support.  A leaf through the comments section under most Daily Telegraph articles demonstrates clearly that he's no longer the Messiah.

(I'll leave someone else to complete the message.)
Never underestimate the Torys inbuilt mantra, power trumps personality, they will sacrifice Johnson when he becomes a liability.

However, there are still plenty out there lapping up the 'Boris is socking ot to the EU' fantasy for now so whilst those are still getting their kicks he is probably ok.

However, come the end of the year he either strikes a deal or goes for no deal, and neither end well for him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Boeta on Friday, September 11, 2020, 06:46:37
They have just done a massive fucking survey randomly testing people. one would imagine that put quite the strain or and as the results came out at the weekend also potentially account for the positive spike?
I think you’re referring to the Office of National Statistics random ‘survey‘ which is done every week and is the most accurate way of knowing actual infections (eg. 2 weeks ago there were 2000 positive tests a day, but ONs survey extrapolated out that it was actually 4000). This is being geared up further and should be an absolute priority


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 11, 2020, 08:13:48
I think you’re referring to the Office of National Statistics random ‘survey‘ which is done every week and is the most accurate way of knowing actual infections (eg. 2 weeks ago there were 2000 positive tests a day, but ONs survey extrapolated out that it was actually 4000). This is being geared up further and should be an absolute priority

Possibly the one my missus did when the results took nearly two weeks to come back. Yes its necessary, but only if we have the capacity to complete that and stand alone testing.


Friend went on line last night to try and get a test for his child, no postal tests available and no test centres suggested, its a shambles.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, September 11, 2020, 09:56:42
Friend went on line last night to try and get a test for his child, no postal tests available and no test centres suggested, its a shambles.

Its clearly all our fault for getting tested too much. Especially if we don't have symptoms but have been in close contact with some who has it.

Genuine question  - is being aysmptomatic somehow better in terms of spread than when you are symptomatic. I guess you cough less, so transmit less, so maybe it is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, September 11, 2020, 10:55:32
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54116606

This sounds positive.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, September 11, 2020, 11:10:28
that's good. but is it better than the new eu/Japan deal?

if so, very good but obviously a deal with the EU is critical


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 11, 2020, 11:18:33
It is good, but even at the most optimistic (aka wildly unrealistic) estimate of what the deal could be worth, represents less than 1% of the value of our trade with the EU. Good news for the businesses exporting stilton to the Far East though. To be fair though it's encouraging that the deal was done, on broadly the same terms as the EU deal. It's a good start. Only 150 odd to go now :)

Meanwhile S&P have calculated Brexit has already cost the country £66bn in lost growth since 2016. That's around £300m a week, for those who like their economics written on the side of buses.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 11, 2020, 11:29:04
Reading some informed comment on the Internal Markets Bill, the power grab included within its provisions goes way beyond the WA/NI.

In s45(4)(g), the bill says that regs made by a minister under powers in s42/s43 (exit declarations/state aid) have effect notwithstanding their incompatibility with "any rule of international or domestic law whatsoever".

Government is trying to create a totally non-justiciable power.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 11, 2020, 11:32:51
Reading some informed comment on the Internal Markets Bill, the power grab included within its provisions goes way beyond the WA/NI.

In s45(4)(g), the bill says that regs made by a minister under powers in s42/s43 (exit declarations/state aid) have effect notwithstanding their incompatibility with "any rule of international or domestic law whatsoever".

Government is trying to create a totally non-justiciable power.
Erm, that's really quite terrifying. Anyone who wants to know why should look up the Enabling Act passed in Germany in 1933. The executive has to be accountable to the law or we no longer live in a democracy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, September 11, 2020, 13:46:40
Erm, that's really quite terrifying. Anyone who wants to know why should look up the Enabling Act passed in Germany in 1933. The executive has to be accountable to the law or we no longer live in a democracy.

I think we pretty much know (and not necessarily accept) that we haven't for some tine. The evidence of which grows by the day.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 11, 2020, 14:06:30
I think we pretty much know (and not necessarily accept) that we haven't for some tine. The evidence of which grows by the day.
I think that's an exaggeration to say we don't live in a democracy right now, but we are creeping closer and closer to not doing and the process is accelerating alarmingly


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, September 11, 2020, 14:11:50
I think that's an exaggeration to say we don't live in a democracy right now, but we are creeping closer and closer to not doing and the process is accelerating alarmingly

Of course, it's an exaggeration but stated more so as an alarm bell for those that still think that "Boris is such a card, he makes me laugh" and fail to see where we are headed. Even the suggestion of heading that way is met with cried of disbelief and scoffs. Although he who does scoff last is usually choking and they don't even know it.

I'm merely enhancing/accelerating my comment as you say, the inevitability has crept up on some like a robber in the night.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 11, 2020, 14:13:36
I don't think it's inevitable either. And we're not as far down that road as the US. But we are headed in the same direction and yes I find it very alarming too


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 11, 2020, 15:27:40
Of course, it's an exaggeration but stated more so as an alarm bell for those that still think that "Boris is such a card, he makes me laugh" and fail to see where we are headed. Even the suggestion of heading that way is met with cried of disbelief and scoffs. Although he who does scoff last is usually choking and they don't even know it.


On another forum I frequent which has a much more right wing clientele than here, for months anyone noting the worrying parallels between 1930's Germany and modern Britain has been scoffed at, but then XR kicked off last weekend, the Daily Mail and Sun were delayed and they are apparently fascists.

As someone who studied the rise of Nazism in detail for two years during my A Levels, it always somewhat bewildered me how things got the way they did and why the chattering classes didn't notice what was happening and stop it, the last couple of years has made the reasoning behind this worryingly clear.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, September 11, 2020, 15:45:56
I don't think it's inevitable either. And we're not as far down that road as the US. But we are headed in the same direction and yes I find it very alarming too

I think it will be if it continues, of course  ::)

As someone who studied the rise of Nazism in detail for two years during my A Levels, it always somewhat bewildered me how things got the way they did and why the chattering classes didn't notice what was happening and stop it, the last couple of years has made the reasoning behind this worryingly clear.

Absolutely. As I say, many will scoff but it never seems to be backed up with any real answers. Just scoffing until it's too late and we're left drowning in a swamp of limited democracy.

I think they call it "Blind Faith" but I may be wrong. Yet if pejority is what they appear to want, then they will eat cake.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 11, 2020, 16:12:32
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54116606

This sounds positive.

It does albeit its merely basically replaces a deal we already had but with one big change, namely the right to sell Stilton to Japan, a nation where 70% of the population are lactose intolerant and a market worth a whopping £120k a year in UK exports.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, September 14, 2020, 09:26:45
It does albeit its merely basically replaces a deal we already had but with one big change, namely the right to sell Stilton to Japan, a nation where 70% of the population are lactose intolerant and a market worth a whopping £120k a year in UK exports.
Hilariously, it turns out that the Japan deal the govt were so widely trumpeting last week actually commits the UK to stricter state aid rules than the ones proposed in negotiations with the EU which the govt is apparently so exercised about that it is proposing to turn the UK into international pariahs by breaking international law:

https://www.ft.com/content/edb7d155-56b4-4065-9f83-31b2247fa178

Shambles would be too kind a word.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 14, 2020, 09:42:13
Hilariously, it turns out that the Japan deal the govt were so widely trumpeting last week actually commits the UK to stricter state aid rules than the ones proposed in negotiations with the EU which the govt is apparently so exercised about that it is proposing to turn the UK into international pariahs by breaking international law:

https://www.ft.com/content/edb7d155-56b4-4065-9f83-31b2247fa178

Shambles would be too kind a word.

Its hardly surprising that they cannot negotiate with the EU, they seem entirely incapable of discussing this within their own government.

I note from last evening that a fair few have been reporting the Braverman and Buckland (both Barristers) to the Bar Council as, rather unsurprisingly, it goes against their professional standards to actively advise your client, in full knowledge, to break the law.

(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/119460186_648180052366259_7542939383129540727_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=QIn_Km_qKbIAX9F24Pg&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-2.fna&oh=4e8de30e0de87e365eb7bafb40eb336d&oe=5F841A3F)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Monday, September 14, 2020, 11:31:12
Buckland said yesterday IF the government were to break the law he would resign.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Monday, September 14, 2020, 11:34:19
No he didn’t. He said if they broke the law in a way he finds unacceptable


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, September 14, 2020, 11:35:09
Buckland said yesterday IF the government were to break the law he would resign.

Almost.

He said if the government break the law **in a manner he finds unacceptable** then he would resign.

Zero integrity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, September 14, 2020, 11:39:06
Buckland said yesterday IF the government were to break the law he would resign.
Not quite. He said he would resign if the government were to break the law "in a way that I find unacceptable" which is very different. The qualifier is everything and quite astonishing - as a QC, as a minister and as the Lord Chancellor he has signed up to codes of conduct and sworn oaths to uphold the rule of law. Not to uphold the bits he likes or finds "acceptable". The rule of law is, as Margaret Thatcher observed, fundamental to democracy and liberty: "The legal system we have and the rule of law are far more responsible for our traditional liberties than any system of one man one vote. Any country or Government which wants to proceed towards tyranny starts to undermine legal rights and undermine the law."

If the Internal Markets Bill passes in it's current form, Buckland and indeed all Tory MPs have a choice: they can support the government, or they can support the rule of law and democracy. Not both.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 14, 2020, 11:47:49
I don't have the local angle, so I wasn't aware that Buckland has history...

(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/119420289_10158379083086488_8934294134113044433_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=XydJ1GkJeFUAX-NJtXP&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-2.fna&oh=54fe1bbfad48558af3a7ce55ea0455ae&oe=5F858AA3)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, September 14, 2020, 12:29:17
I don't have the local angle, so I wasn't aware that Buckland has history...

(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/119420289_10158379083086488_8934294134113044433_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=XydJ1GkJeFUAX-NJtXP&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-2.fna&oh=54fe1bbfad48558af3a7ce55ea0455ae&oe=5F858AA3)

I remember the hammer attack story but I never knew Buckland was involved.

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/11353558.mother-of-school-hammer-attack-victim-calls-for-new-solicitor-general-robert-buckland-mp-to-quit/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, September 14, 2020, 12:37:00
that's new to me too
------
we all know the career minded snivelling arse and his North Swindon sidekick will vote with the government unless something severe happens


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 14, 2020, 12:39:10
Going to be interesting to see what happens now Cox has come out very strongly against it, I recall his opinion held quite a lot of sway in the party previously.

I have no doubt that it will pass, then the fun will really start.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, September 14, 2020, 13:18:16
I remember the hammer attack story but I never knew Buckland was involved.

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/11353558.mother-of-school-hammer-attack-victim-calls-for-new-solicitor-general-robert-buckland-mp-to-quit/
IIRC Reg has mentioned it a few times, he's pulled me up on it when I'd mentioned that Buckland seemed decent enough. Certainly this Bill will be a litmus test for a lot of MPs


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, September 15, 2020, 08:45:09
Going to be interesting to see what happens now Cox has come out very strongly against it, I recall his opinion held quite a lot of sway in the party previously.

I have no doubt that it will pass, then the fun will really start.
The distinction between Geoffrey Cox, QC, the previous Attorney General and Suella Braverman, "QC", as lawyers, is as stark can be.

When Mrs May had claimed that her revised agreement had meant "there would be nothing to prevent the UK instigating measures that would ultimately dis-apply the backstop", Cox gave his honest legal opinion that there was nothing in the agreement that would allow the UK to disapply the agreement unilaterally.

Whatever one's views on his politics, he remained a lawyer of independence, integrity as well as experience.

Braverman is a legal lightweight who owes becoming a QC not to the usual route but exclusively to Johnson's patronage.  Given an Attorney General's first duty is to uphold the law ahead of the interests of any client, her appointment could be seen as a joke.  Politically however, she is committed to ousting scrutiny by the Courts of the lawfulness of Government. 

Whatever your politics, the Supreme Court came down twice in favour of our elected Parliament, latterly to ensure Johnson could not abuse a prorogation power to shut it down. The Internal Market Bill now gives ministers the power, not only to interpret the Protocol, but to disapply or modify its effect to the extent of nullifying a treaty obligation entered into by the UK Government, as they see fit. 

It excludes parliamentary scrutiny and attempts to exclude judicial scrutiny of the lawfulness of all ministerial actions thereunder.  There is a distinctly un-British, totalitarian undercurrent to our Cummings-led Government, being disguised by Jester-in-Chief Johnson, as a defence of British interests.  We should be very wary.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, September 15, 2020, 09:15:15
The problem is, what can you actually do about it?

Pressure your MP as much as you like, snivelling career shits like Tomlinson and Buckland won't oppose Johnson.

Vote them out - a) too late b) the number of "yeahbutlabour would of" views I see are so depressing. And they are in fighgting still. And there isn't a credible opposition.

And so it my assumption, we're really up the junction to missquote Squeeze.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Tuesday, September 15, 2020, 09:20:35
The one thing that will make them stop and think is if they get wind of the possibility of losing their seat. Most nationwide petitions are useless because they don't put any individual MP under pressure. Get up a petition (or equivalent) signed by a few thousand constituents and an MP will start watching what he does, and will challenge the leadership (government or opposition) much more readily.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 15, 2020, 09:26:33
Miliband was surprisingly good last night, or was it that Johnson is just downright dreadful?

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1305546881272029188?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 15, 2020, 11:29:07
The one thing that will make them stop and think is if they get wind of the possibility of losing their seat. Most nationwide petitions are useless because they don't put any individual MP under pressure. Get up a petition (or equivalent) signed by a few thousand constituents and an MP will start watching what he does, and will challenge the leadership (government or opposition) much more readily.

Better yet a recall petition. If Buckland does eventually vote the law-breaking Illegal Market Bill through, there must be a case for a recall petition against him solely on grounds of integrity?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, September 15, 2020, 12:20:02
Miliband was surprisingly good last night, or was it that Johnson is just downright dreadful?

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1305546881272029188?s=20

Like that means jack shit in the new politics.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, September 15, 2020, 19:48:08
In the middle of a crisis in the testing system that threatens a second wave outbreak of COVID, the govt has shut down a testing centre in Ebbsfleet so it can be used for a lorry park when their Brexit fuck up hits. Brexit vs Public Health, in direct contrast, only ever going to be one winner, tells you everything about this govt's priorities

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-54158100


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: STFC_Manc on Tuesday, September 15, 2020, 21:30:58
In the middle of a crisis in the testing system that threatens a second wave outbreak of COVID, the govt has shut down a testing centre in Ebbsfleet so it can be used for a lorry park when their Brexit fuck up hits. Brexit vs Public Health, in direct contrast, only ever going to be one winner, tells you everything about this govt's priorities

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-54158100

Shock the governement closed a testing centre and relocate it to another site, the current crisis is labs not testing locations


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 10:15:18
Shock the governement closed a testing centre and relocate it to another site, the current crisis is labs not testing locations

Not strictly correct, we have the capacity to do the tests, but they are just not being done.

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1306123885621006339?s=20

As an aside, I never noticed just how welsh Buckland is before.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 10:20:41
Shock the governement closed a testing centre and relocate it to another site, the current crisis is labs not testing locations
If it was just labs, people in London wouldn't be told go to Dundee to get a test, or people in Belfast told to go to Wales. The whole system is a fucking mess, face it, your govt couldn't run a piss-up in a brewery. And remember we weren't going to need those lorry parks for Brexit, that was just Project Fear wasn't it? Watch what happens when they start filling up, the same arseholes who are making a complete hash of Test and Trace are also the ones telling us what a super success they're going to make of Brexit.

The juxtaposition of an ongoing failure with the catastrophe still to come is perfect symbol of this shambles of a govt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 11:09:26
surely they're protecting the labs by prioritising hotspot areas

e.g. labs can do 20 tests, London gets 5, Dundee gets 15.

I mean it's not less shambolic, it's shambles management.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 11:16:52
surely they're protecting the labs by prioritising hotspot areas

e.g. labs can do 20 tests, London gets 5, Dundee gets 15.

I mean it's not less shambolic, it's shambles management.

 I think stories are being muddled on causes of the problem, not being helped by the nonsense the government keep talking coming up with what appears to be random figures on testing capacity and actual delivery. There was something earlier than suggested we are averaging 62k tests a day but we (if the government are to be believed) have capacity for 300k a day.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 11:23:01
but field reports suggest that a lot of centres are very quiet/empty despite not being able to book a test.

may be a local thing I suppose


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 11:33:50
but field reports suggest that a lot of centres are very quiet/empty despite not being able to book a test.

may be a local thing I suppose

I wonder whether its a lack of test kits causing the problem, I read somewhere of a guy who booked  test for his kid displaying symptoms, drove 40 odd miles with a poorly kid to take it to arrive and be told he couldn't have the test as they didn't have any kits.

Some good work by Rayner in PMQ's today!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 11:37:05
Depressing yet entirely expected reading https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/15/brexit-costs-would-be-higher-than-coronavirus-for-the-uk-goldman-says.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 11:44:20
I wonder whether its a lack of test kits causing the problem, I read somewhere of a guy who booked  test for his kid displaying symptoms, drove 40 odd miles with a poorly kid to take it to arrive and be told he couldn't have the test as they didn't have any kits.

Some good work by Rayner in PMQ's today!

At least his eyes were working ok though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: STFC_Manc on Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 16:00:43
If it was just labs, people in London wouldn't be told go to Dundee to get a test, or people in Belfast told to go to Wales. The whole system is a fucking mess, face it, your govt couldn't run a piss-up in a brewery.

So is the issue with people in Swindon not being able to get a test a lab issue or test centres? As Swindon now has 3? I don't think its the later.

One of the issues is people going for tests when they don't have symptoms or haven't been told to go. I've read stories where people have come back from holiday and think, lets go and check...


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 16:38:12
yes fine people have been silly, but the main issues is that the test and trace is currently inadequate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 16:38:26
One of the issues is people going for tests when they don't have symptoms or haven't been told to go. I've read stories where people have come back from holiday and think, lets go and check...

Wouldn't really call that an issue for someone legitimately ensuring they are safe and I doubt you can personally count for anyone else's health and wellbeing. There is an element of "better safe than sorry" with a fair chunk of society. Combine that with the absolute mishmash of continued blurring of guidance (it's an incredibly loose term) from the Government (also another loose term), is it any wonder people are taking it upon themselves to essentially do the right thing if unsure?

When I return from my travels, even if I don't personally feel unwell, I will most likely go and get a test done; it would be more so due to "making sure" that I don't pass this extremely contagious virus to anyone else. Especially people who to me, could be unknowingly more at risk than myself.

Like I've stated many times, the Government are only doing one job well and that is dividing opinion the masses. Divide and conquer. Story and strategy as old as time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 17, 2020, 11:30:43
Dominic Raab, the Foreign Secretary, hasn't read the Good Friday Agreement. It is only 35 pages long. That's not even as long as one of bamboo's posts.

https://twitter.com/EmmandJDeSouza/status/1306319236583903234


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, September 17, 2020, 12:24:29
Dominic Raab, the Foreign Secretary, hasn't read the Good Friday Agreement. It is only 35 pages long. That's not even as long as one of bamboo's posts.

https://twitter.com/EmmandJDeSouza/status/1306319236583903234

Fantastic (ooh irony within my own posting style too) Paul  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

I would buy you a beer for that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 17, 2020, 15:35:09
Continuing to flick the 'V's' at parliament.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EiHPidYX0AAGVAk?format=jpg&name=medium)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 18, 2020, 16:26:02
(https://www.national-preservation.com/attachments/5db099f1-bd85-4d55-b332-10b8cc827c8d-jpeg.54294/)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 18, 2020, 17:58:53
(https://www.national-preservation.com/attachments/5db099f1-bd85-4d55-b332-10b8cc827c8d-jpeg.54294/)
Invisible unless you have a login to the site. Screenshot maybe?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Sunday, September 20, 2020, 07:42:53
The Times reporting that Boris is moaning about his personal finances since being PM and taking a pay cut.

On the personal front sources say Johnson is complaining about money. He is still supporting four out of his six children, has been through an expensive divorce and had his income drop by more than half as a result of fulfilling his lifetime ambition.

As a backbench MP, with his Daily Telegraph column netting him £275,000 and lucrative speaking engagements, Johnson was earning well in excess of £350,000 a year. His prime ministerial salary is about £150,000

As one friend put it: “Boris, like other prime ministers, is very, very badly served. He doesn’t have a housekeeper - he has a single cleaner and they’re worried about being able to afford a nanny...Downing Street is not a nice place to live"

Those in contact with the prime minister, both friends and colleagues, say he is finding aspects of the job extraordinarily tough. They are concerned that Mr Johnson’s longstanding tendency for dark moods is being exacerbated by the pressure he is under

BOO FUCKING HOO







Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, September 20, 2020, 17:05:27
https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1307728433930264577?s=19

You have to laugh really I suppose.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, September 20, 2020, 18:21:20
The Times reporting that Boris is moaning about his personal finances since being PM and taking a pay cut.

On the personal front sources say Johnson is complaining about money. He is still supporting four out of his six children, has been through an expensive divorce and had his income drop by more than half as a result of fulfilling his lifetime ambition.

As a backbench MP, with his Daily Telegraph column netting him £275,000 and lucrative speaking engagements, Johnson was earning well in excess of £350,000 a year. His prime ministerial salary is about £150,000

As one friend put it: “Boris, like other prime ministers, is very, very badly served. He doesn’t have a housekeeper - he has a single cleaner and they’re worried about being able to afford a nanny...Downing Street is not a nice place to live"

Those in contact with the prime minister, both friends and colleagues, say he is finding aspects of the job extraordinarily tough. They are concerned that Mr Johnson’s longstanding tendency for dark moods is being exacerbated by the pressure he is under

BOO FUCKING HOO

Remind me again which party it was that limited child benefit to the first two children because you shouldn't have kids if you can't afford to keep them?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Sunday, September 20, 2020, 19:45:45
£150k per year for 5-10 years, and then an open chequebook for millions for the rest of your life


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Sunday, September 20, 2020, 20:06:23
Boris is such a twat.

Amazed he even had it in him to to fire six kids out.

Even more amazed people let him near them!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, September 20, 2020, 20:23:53
£150k per year for 5-10 years, and then an open chequebook for millions for the rest of your life
It's just an excuse anyway, he'll be getting plenty of backhanders from all the dodgy fuckers Gove and Cummings are handing out all those untendered PPE/testing/Brexit contracts to, and then there's his dosh from Putin. He's just found out he's shit at it, it's not as much fun as he thought it would be and he wants out


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 21, 2020, 08:57:52
Invisible unless you have a login to the site. Screenshot maybe?

Mark Francois MP, Conservative
Absent from parliament, reason not given, allowed to vote by proxy (voted c.8 times last week).

Amy Callaghan, MP, SNP
Absent after brain surgery, not allowed to vote by proxy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, September 21, 2020, 09:00:46
It's not just that Boris is moaning about money.

He's moaning about money after slashing benefits for millions of other people.

Wanker.

And some of those who saw their benefits slashed and/or are struggling in other ways because of him and his cronies will still vote for him again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, September 21, 2020, 09:03:56
It's not just that Boris is moaning about money.

He's moaning about money after slashing benefits for millions of other people.

Wanker.

And some of those who saw their benefits slashed and/or are struggling in other ways because of him and his cronies will still vote for him again.
Yup. There's a view that not so much the moaning itself, which is just paving the way for him to quit early next year, but the timing of it was a dead cat to take headlines and attention away from his visit to Italy last weekend for another bunga bunga party with the newly enobled Russian oligarch son of a KGB agent. Maybe he didn't get as big a sack of unmarked roubles as he was expecting, hence the moaning about money.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 22, 2020, 15:55:29
Jesus, and we wonder what is happening and why the country is going to pot, this is a Tory MP happy to spout this childish nonsense in a public forum!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eigu54oXsAAPGQG?format=jpg&name=medium)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Tuesday, September 22, 2020, 19:19:01
How ironic that the programme on directly after Johnsons' speech is "Would I lie to you?"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Wednesday, September 23, 2020, 01:41:10
Mark Francois MP, Conservative
Absent from parliament, reason not given, allowed to vote by proxy (voted c.8 times last week).

Amy Callaghan, MP, SNP
Absent after brain surgery, not allowed to vote by proxy?

Was the vote won by a narrow margin?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Wednesday, September 23, 2020, 08:36:36
Jesus, and we wonder what is happening and why the country is going to pot, this is a Tory MP happy to spout this childish nonsense in a public forum!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eigu54oXsAAPGQG?format=jpg&name=medium)
It is a shame that she managed to spell "British" wrong.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, September 23, 2020, 09:47:25
Jesus, and we wonder what is happening and why the country is going to pot, this is a Tory MP happy to spout this childish nonsense in a public forum!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eigu54oXsAAPGQG?format=jpg&name=medium)

Can't find this tweet. Can you link to the original?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 23, 2020, 09:51:48
Can't find this tweet. Can you link to the original?

https://twitter.com/andreajenkyns/status/1308329961510625282?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, September 23, 2020, 10:03:54
https://twitter.com/andreajenkyns/status/1308329961510625282?s=20

Cheers. She's quite special isn't she.

PS. You're so fucked.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 23, 2020, 10:10:12
Cheers. She's quite special isn't she.

PS. You're so fucked.

What me personally?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, September 23, 2020, 10:50:12
What me personally?

No, collectively, if that’s any consolation.

Can’t work out if I’m half-fucked or double-fucked.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 23, 2020, 15:41:36
They have excelled themselves now, not content with a border in Ireland (And Gibraltar) we are now getting one in Kent.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 23, 2020, 19:16:34
They have excelled themselves now, not content with a border in Ireland (And Gibraltar) we are now getting one in Kent.
Liz Truss is hopeful of concluding a trade deal with Gillingham in the near future. Will Kent still be part of the Commonwealth on independence or are they becoming part of France?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, September 23, 2020, 19:37:27
Liz Truss is hopeful of concluding a trade deal with Gillingham in the near future. Will Kent still be part of the Commonwealth on independence or are they becoming part of France?

Will be a bit of a blow for the Archbishop of Canterbury, can't imagine there are too many French Anglicans (half expecting someone to tell me there are millions now)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 23, 2020, 19:41:17
Will be a bit of a blow for the Archbishop of Canterbury, can't imagine there are too many French Anglicans (half expecting someone to tell me there are millions now)
Franglicans?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, September 23, 2020, 19:45:52
Franglicans?

Think you need almonds for that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 24, 2020, 08:32:37
I am more than happy to openly admit my mistakes, thus I offer a humble apology to the Brexiteers who rightly suggested that to say that country was heading off a cliff edge in the case of a no deal outcome was being a little unrealistic.

I accept now that they were perfectly correct, we won't be going off a cliff, because we would need to get a permit to cross the border to even get to the cliff and the roads will be so clogged with stationary wagons that its won't be a viable proposition within any reasonable timescale.

My sincere apologies.

(with thanks to David Allen Green)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 24, 2020, 09:02:51
"Project Fear" is starting to look like an underestimate, if anything


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, September 24, 2020, 09:10:57
"Project Fear" is starting to look like an underestimate, if anything

It's almost as though the educated, trained, and experienced experts in their fields might actually have known more about the topic than Bob and Karen on facebook.

Who'da thunk it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 24, 2020, 09:38:26
It's almost as though the educated, trained, and experienced experts in their fields might actually have known more about the topic than Bob and Karen on facebook.

Who'da thunk it?
Don't know that it's necessarily that fair to point the finger of blame at "Bob and Karen" when they were being comprehensively lied to by politicians with persuasive sounding answers who were telling them the experts were wrong, or EU funded or had some other vested interest. But I still say Johnson, Gove, Farage, Banks et al should be prosecuted for treason.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Thursday, September 24, 2020, 09:51:29
It also amazes me as to how they are never held to account for their lies; they constantly make statements without being able or willing to back it up with 'real' qualitative or quantitative evidence - and the problem is there has been so much incompetence that it is difficult to remember every failure, lie and so forth.
I guess it is a mixture of people who blindly believe their BS, the fact that they seem to be untouchable & people just are fed up and let it pass


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, September 24, 2020, 10:04:53
It also amazes me as to how they are never held to account for their lies; they constantly make statements without being able or willing to back it up with 'real' qualitative or quantitative evidence - and the problem is there has been so much incompetence that it is difficult to remember every failure, lie and so forth.
I guess it is a mixture of people who blindly believe their BS, the fact that they seem to be untouchable & people just are fed up and let it pass
There's an element of confirmation bias as well, where people don't want to believe they have been conned. And an element of "Well, politicians always lie" so people discount it as long as they think they're getting the result they want. The Brexiteers, like Trump, have exploited that to the nth degree and just gone shit or bust for the most brazen lies, knowing it doesn't matter any more as they're not being held to account for it, but the rot started in the UK with Blair and Mandelson

One thing that would help is abandoning the parliamentary convention of not calling another politician a liar - when the lies are so blatant, they should at the very least be called out for it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 24, 2020, 10:15:36
It also amazes me as to how they are never held to account for their lies; they constantly make statements without being able or willing to back it up with 'real' qualitative or quantitative evidence - and the problem is there has been so much incompetence that it is difficult to remember every failure, lie and so forth.
I guess it is a mixture of people who blindly believe their BS, the fact that they seem to be untouchable & people just are fed up and let it pass

On a wider issue what pisses me off the most is the fact that the government now lies incessantly and with impunity in parliament and nothing seems to ever happen, misleading parliament used to mean having to apologise and correct the record (and possibly resignation) but now its just the norm. No idea whether this is down to Hoyle being weak/protecting his knighthood, or some other change?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 24, 2020, 10:18:31
One thing that would help is abandoning the parliamentary convention of not calling another politician a liar - when the lies are so blatant, they should at the very least be called out for it.

It has gone to a minor degree, Blackford accused Johnson of lying the other week, Hoyle stepped in and suggested he withdrew the comment, Blackford did nothing of the sort, and Hoyle accepted that he had!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHwt8QmCTXA


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 25, 2020, 10:00:21
The former boss of Cambridge Analytica has been banned from running companies for 7 years for "permitting companies to offer potentially unethical services to prospective clients". Like rigging elections and referenda, for example.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/7-year-disqualification-for-cambridge-analytica-boss


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, September 25, 2020, 10:33:17
I'm sure he can be a 'special advisor' though


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 25, 2020, 11:50:31
Still winning I see

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54287283


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, September 25, 2020, 12:07:41
My industry is apparently not viable.  An awful lot of people looking at 20% grant up to £1800 thats supposed to sustain us for 3 months and crying.  What has been civil reasoned arguing for support may well become pretty uncivil soon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, September 25, 2020, 16:17:24
Another Brexiteer patriotically takes his fortune abroad to avoid paying UK taxes. It's almost as if they don't actually give a shit about the UK isn't it?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/25/sir-jim-ratcliffe-uks-richest-person-moves-to-tax-free-monaco-brexit-ineos-domicile?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 29, 2020, 09:00:38
This week in Tory in all its glory...

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1310615097216315392.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 29, 2020, 09:04:44
Be interesting to read JRM's thought on the Popes musings..

https://twitter.com/JamesMartinSJ/status/1310382258189107202?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Tuesday, September 29, 2020, 09:19:03
irrumating, what a great word!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 30, 2020, 06:10:14
So last night, the UK parliament voted to allow the government to break international law, a sorry day for the international reputation of our country. Swindon MP Robert Buckland, a QC and the Lord Chancellor (one of the highest legal offices in the country) not only broke his oath to uphold the law by voting for his but also voted against an amendment that would have required ministers to uphold the law. Apparently not something he is in favour of. The man is a disgrace to his office, his profession, his party and our town.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, September 30, 2020, 06:31:03
So last night, the UK parliament voted to allow the government to break international law, a sorry day for the international reputation of our country. Swindon MP Robert Buckland, a QC and the Lord Chancellor (one of the highest legal offices in the country) not only broke his oath to uphold the law by voting for his but also voted against an amendment that would have required ministers to uphold the law. Apparently not something he is in favour of. The man is a disgrace to his office, his profession, his party and our town.
Good post.  And you can add Braverman.

I'd only point out that, imo, Buckland's conduct is characteristic of rather than a disgrace to Dominic's Conservatives


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, September 30, 2020, 07:58:07
Both Swindon MP's regularly show themselves time and time again to be career politician's with no morals. A truly vile pair of cunts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 30, 2020, 08:16:25
So last night, the UK parliament voted to allow the government to break international law, a sorry day for the international reputation of our country. Swindon MP Robert Buckland, a QC and the Lord Chancellor (one of the highest legal offices in the country) not only broke his oath to uphold the law by voting for his but also voted against an amendment that would have required ministers to uphold the law. Apparently not something he is in favour of. The man is a disgrace to his office, his profession, his party and our town.

Not sure how any of the QC MP's who voted for this can remain as members of the bar, its quite a jump to basically give up your livelihood post parliament just for a ministerial car or the carrot of a peerage.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 30, 2020, 08:37:07
Good post.  And you can add Braverman.

I'd only point out that, imo, Buckland's conduct is characteristic of rather than a disgrace to Dominic's Conservatives
The current incarnation you are absolutely correct about. I was talking more about the traditions of the party. TBH I don't regard the current incarnation as Conservatives any more, they should rename themselves the English National Populist Party which is what they are. They're not Tories


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Wednesday, September 30, 2020, 09:05:10
The current incarnation you are absolutely correct about. I was talking more about the traditions of the party. TBH I don't regard the current incarnation as Conservatives any more, they should rename themselves the English National Populist Party which is what they are. They're not Tories

At the risk of going a bit Monty Python with this, they could try Populist National Front of England.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 30, 2020, 09:20:56
At the risk of going a bit Monty Python with this, they could try Populist National Front of England.
Splitters!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 30, 2020, 09:23:22
My industry is apparently not viable.  An awful lot of people looking at 20% grant up to £1800 thats supposed to sustain us for 3 months and crying.  What has been civil reasoned arguing for support may well become pretty uncivil soon.

Its getting some localised reporting, whether this will actually make any difference remains to be seen.

First story on https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000n36q/midlands-today-evening-news-29092020?fbclid=IwAR1pcaa-izB7Vq18bSBpdxZZFCFjnmhpa_4fbT3IhDHa-XeN4N59jTQ_vlU

Pretty grim viewing


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, September 30, 2020, 09:24:26
At the risk of going a bit Monty Python with this, they could try Populist National Front of England.
That is so, well, er, British.

Doing a Silly (Sleep) Walk towards dictatorship.  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, September 30, 2020, 11:20:27
The man is a disgrace to his office, his profession, his party and our town.

Obviously he's not concerned about the prospect of being disbarred and not being able to find work in the legal profession in the future. I'm sure he'll end up in some cushy non-exec role like most ex-MPs generally do. Wouldn't be surprised if it's already lined up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 30, 2020, 11:51:41
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjKFwehWAAEXkjI?format=jpg&name=large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, September 30, 2020, 12:54:48
Obviously he's not concerned about the prospect of being disbarred and not being able to find work in the legal profession in the future. I'm sure he'll end up in some cushy non-exec role like most ex-MPs generally do. Wouldn't be surprised if it's already lined up.
I'm sure you're right. In fact, I'm sure he's been promised that as the price of his support/not resigning. I did though have Buckland down as someone who cared about his reputation and perhaps had a sense of shame, wrongly it would seem.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, September 30, 2020, 20:04:06
Just in case anyone was unsure...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 1, 2020, 11:45:54
Is there anyone left in the Home Office who *isn't* completely fucking insane?

https://www.ft.com/content/ac028f1c-cf83-444c-b61f-00e99d404d6a


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 1, 2020, 11:48:42
Is there anyone left in the Home Office who *isn't* completely fucking insane?

https://www.ft.com/content/ac028f1c-cf83-444c-b61f-00e99d404d6a

And the EU will pay for it?

It's another Trumpism - with a twist


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 1, 2020, 12:39:08
Is there anyone left in the Home Office who *isn't* completely fucking insane?

https://www.ft.com/content/ac028f1c-cf83-444c-b61f-00e99d404d6a

I think there is a lot more to a lot of this than meets the eye.

I listened to a podcast the other week and they pointed out that with the simultaneous shit shows of Covid (with a lot of Johnon's core support very pissed off about restrictions) and Brexit (even ardent Brexiteers have gone very quiet as the true shiteness of what is coming is now nigh impossible to deny)  playing out the only area where the radicalised faithful can be energised is to sustain the culture war narrative.

Thus we are having ever more hare brained stories leaked to the press the main objectives of which are to wind up unwary libtards and thus give some red meat to the far right to react against and roll out their buzz words about wokeness and cancel culture. So we have the nonsense about Ascension Island, this crap etc just to try and trigger people, its basically a slightly more advanced dead cat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 1, 2020, 12:50:38
I think there is a lot more to a lot of this than meets the eye.

I listened to a podcast the other week and they pointed out that with the simultaneous shit shows of Covid (with a lot of Johnon's core support very pissed off about restrictions) and Brexit (even ardent Brexiteers have gone very quiet as the true shiteness of what is coming is now nigh impossible to deny)  playing out the only area where the radicalised faithful can be energised is to sustain the culture war narrative.

Thus we are having ever more hare brained stories leaked to the press the main objectives of which are to wind up unwary libtards and thus give some red meat to the far right to react against and roll out their buzz words about wokeness and cancel culture. So we have the nonsense about Ascension Island, this crap etc just to try and trigger people, its basically a slightly more advanced dead cat.
That was my initial reaction too, but the FT's Politics Correspondent thinks there's more to it, that they are serious. A bit of "red meat" for "the base", the far right always enjoys a bit of unnecessary cruelty to the weakest

https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1311632026945171456


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 1, 2020, 13:03:47
That was my initial reaction too, but the FT's Politics Correspondent thinks there's more to it, that they are serious. A bit of "red meat" for "the base", the far right always enjoys a bit of unnecessary cruelty to the weakest

https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1311632026945171456

Shouldn't waste their time, come January with Johnson still wittering on about us not having a hard border in Ireland the small boat challenge will have gone as instead for asylum seekers it will be a lot easier and safer to travel to RoI on a ferry and then just wander over the border into NI, I imagine that the French will see this as a very handy way of rapidly solving the problems around Calais.

I think it was Tony Benn who said that its always worth watching how governments handle refugees as it gives one a pretty good idea of how they would like to handle the general population given half a chance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 1, 2020, 13:27:03
Shouldn't waste their time, come January with Johnson still wittering on about us not having a hard border in Ireland the small boat challenge will have gone as instead for asylum seekers it will be a lot easier and safer to travel to RoI on a ferry and then just wander over the border into NI, I imagine that the French will see this as a very handy way of rapidly solving the problems around Calais.
The point, though, is in the gesture, not the effectiveness of the gesture. Much like Teresa May's vans


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 1, 2020, 14:22:27
Gove was asked earlier today to confirm that leaving the EU will cost the chemical industry *alone* £1bn in additional red tape. He replied that it was "an inevitable consequence of leaving the EU". Don't remember that being mentioned when he was banging on about "sunlit uplands" and "Project Fear"

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1311588865896058880


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, October 1, 2020, 15:36:58
Gove was asked earlier today to confirm that leaving the EU will cost the chemical industry *alone* £1bn in additional red tape. He replied that it was "an inevitable consequence of leaving the EU". Don't remember that being mentioned when he was banging on about "sunlit uplands" and "Project Fear"

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1311588865896058880

Never fear.  The chemists, sales people and warehouse workers who are going to lose their jobs to this self-inflicted insanity can eat sovereignty for breakfast.  They'll be fine with it.  All worth it.

Over 4 years on, & I'm still waiting to see a benefit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 1, 2020, 15:43:26
Never fear.  The chemists, sales people and warehouse workers who are going to lose their jobs to this self-inflicted insanity can eat sovereignty for breakfast.  They'll be fine with it.  All worth it.

Over 4 years on, & I'm still waiting to see a benefit.
Don't worry, there'll be loads of people getting benefits out of Brexit. Well, Universal Credit anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 1, 2020, 15:53:31
Gove was asked earlier today to confirm that leaving the EU will cost the chemical industry *alone* £1bn in additional red tape. He replied that it was "an inevitable consequence of leaving the EU". Don't remember that being mentioned when he was banging on about "sunlit uplands" and "Project Fear"

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1311588865896058880

It was on the Bus.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjP3BGoVkAA4oYF?format=jpg&name=large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, October 1, 2020, 17:10:51
Quote from: Ardiles

Over 4 years on, & I'm still waiting to see a benefit.

you just need a hedge fund set up to profit from the UK's misery


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Thursday, October 1, 2020, 21:33:59
There will be no "ever closer union" due to the results of several recent elections.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 10:02:50
Really good analysis by The Secret Barrister on how the Mail use a completely fake concoction of lies and innuendo to mount a dual attack on lawyers and immigrants with a pile of shite "story" about legal aid

https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1312769219772264448


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 10:39:48
Think the next General Election will be interesting. The absolute shambles the way the government have handled this pandemic will see them turfed out of power.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 10:52:35
Absolutely zero chance of that happening.

160 odd seat advantage, best case scenario that will take a couple of elections to turn around


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 10:58:17
Think the next General Election will be interesting. The absolute shambles the way the government have handled this pandemic will see them turfed out of power.

I can't see that happening.

The far left appear to be more interested in letting the tories in again than voting for Starmer because he is not their perfect choice. The rest of the nation will have to endure the tories for quite a while longer yet, partly because of the infighting and unwillingness to compromise.

No doubt many of those people will also be complaining about the Tories' policies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 11:07:00
Absolutely zero chance of that happening.

160 odd seat advantage, best case scenario that will take a couple of elections to turn around

Generally agree with what you say but for clarity the majority is only 80, which is still bloody massive! However it 'only' needs 40 Tories to revolt and Johnson has issues, this is why the ERG still have him by the bollocks, if they vote against him on say a 'deal' and the opposition votes the same way he's got problems.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 11:14:34
So the government apparently doesn't give a shit about the arts, yet simultaneously seems hell bent on bankrupting the country to protect the fishing industry?

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-10-06/rishi-sunak-suggests-musicians-and-others-in-arts-should-retrain-and-find-other-jobs


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 13:18:25
Who writes this shite for Johnson?
"I can tell you that your government is working night and day to repel this virus, and we will succeed, just as this country has seen off every alien invader for the last thousand years"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 13:23:31
Who writes this shite for Johnson?
"I can tell you that your government is working night and day to repel this virus, and we will succeed, just as this country has seen off every alien invader for the last thousand years"

One for the little Englanders. He should have mentioned spitfires for good measure.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 13:53:23
Who writes this shite for Johnson?
"I can tell you that your government is working night and day to repel this virus, and we will succeed, just as this country has seen off every alien invader for the last thousand years"

Intrigued to know how many times we have been invaded by aliens since 1020?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 13:57:55
but David Icke said


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 14:04:29
Does this mean the Govt. will be off sorting out the Beaches?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 14:08:08
but David Icke said

Apart from the Americans having a successful pop in the 18th century (sort of) we kind of didn't see off the Normans in 1066 and I am at a bit of a loss bar that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 14:12:40
Intrigued to know how many times we have been invaded by aliens since 1020?

Countless times, but fortunately aliens only invade America and they always see them off. Well according to films anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 15:31:47
I'm a Resident Alien


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 15:32:45
I've been to New York and I'm English so has that made me an alien before?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 16:39:59
Quote from: Bob's Orange
I've been to New York and I'm English so has that made me an alien before?

I think that makes you a legal alien


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, October 8, 2020, 11:29:10
I know it's hardly newsworthy but yet another £100 million + contract, on behalf of the UK taxpayer, was awarded for PPE supply without competition, this time to a recently ennobled Tory donor's business recent associate.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... y-22810575?

This associate is not a UK taxpayer himself, natch, being an IOM resident.

If his hastily set up company needed to be sued it was set up with £100 share capital and amazingly its website seems unable to distinguish between having a supplier and owning a factory:

All our products are shipped directly from our factories after extensive product testing, safety certification verification and detailed product inspection

What amuses me is MPs' expecting us to believe they go into politics to win elections, get into Government to "make a difference"  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, October 11, 2020, 19:04:05
And look what happens when the President of the US encourages heavily armed gunmen to "Liberate" their state from the governor. Turns out encouraging armed militias to insurrection makes them plot acts of terrorism, including the kidnap and murder of the governor and possibly other hostages. Who could have thought it?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/08/six-people-charged-plot-kidnap-michigan-governor-gretchen-whitmer


And for those who doubt that our own govt are not that far behind following Trump's playbook, Priti Patel is being criticised for inciting a far right terrorist knife attack on an immigration lawyer with her anti-lawyer rhetoric recently. The Law Society asked her to rein in the rhetoric in the wake of the attack, but instead she just increased it

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/10/lawyers-claim-knife-attack-at-law-firm-was-inspired-by-priti-patels-rhetoric?CMP=share_btn_tw

Interestingly, the police aren't describing this as a terrorist attack even though it's clearly (by their own description) a politically motivated attempted murder and it's not been widely reported. If this had been a Muslim with an Islamist agenda attacking a lawyer with knives, it would have been all over the BBC, Daily Mail etc as a terrorist attack.

In any reasonable country, a Home Secretary using language so incendiary as to incite terrorist attacks would be a national scandal and would be forced to resign. In the new Trumpian UK, it's not even news


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, October 12, 2020, 08:42:37
They are still tweeting this nonsense though

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ej9I12pXsAAdo2j?format=jpg&name=900x900)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, October 12, 2020, 09:02:24
This absolutely stinks

https://twitter.com/WritesBright/status/1315235954659999746?s=20

And this...

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1315221860062298112?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, October 12, 2020, 10:12:57
This absolutely stinks

https://twitter.com/WritesBright/status/1315235954659999746?s=20

And this...

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1315221860062298112?s=20
Corruption on a massive scale. Cummings learned well from the kleptocrat oligarchs in his years in Russsia


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, October 12, 2020, 10:35:33
Corruption on a massive scale. Cummings learned well from the kleptocrat oligarchs in his years in Russsia

I think Jenrick also spent some time learning in Russia.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Monday, October 12, 2020, 10:45:03
The Tories are laughing at us chaps, and there is nothing we can do about it  :(

Shameful, utterly shameful.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, October 12, 2020, 10:59:07
I think Jenrick also spent some time learning in Russia.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkHu_5tWoAA4Ld3?format=jpg&name=small)
https://twitter.com/Trump_ton/status/1315595382475370496


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, October 12, 2020, 13:09:29
In Merseyside at least, pubs that tend not to sell food have to close, while those that are 'food based' are allowed to stay open.

This includes 'food based' pubs like Wetherspoons, whose owner just so happens to be a Tory donor.

Must just be a coincidence, right?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, October 12, 2020, 13:14:02
can I have five pints of lager and a cheese toastie please


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, October 12, 2020, 13:45:36
Time for a revival of the Raines' Sandwich

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/raines-sandwich


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Monday, October 12, 2020, 15:20:22
The Tories are laughing at us chaps, and there is nothing we can do about it  :(

Shameful, utterly shameful.

They always have...and yet so many of the people they laugh at vote for them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Monday, October 12, 2020, 19:03:13
In Merseyside at least, pubs that tend not to sell food have to close, while those that are 'food based' are allowed to stay open.

This includes 'food based' pubs like Wetherspoons, whose owner just so happens to be a Tory donor.

Must just be a coincidence, right?



That's a bit of a stretch. Some of our European friends and neighbours have similar policies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Monday, October 12, 2020, 20:18:26
can I have five pints of lager and a cheese toastie please

They had/have this rule in Ireland about pubs serving food, but they have to have an actual kitchen rather than just a Breville (I know you're being flippant)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, October 13, 2020, 06:02:52
I was, but it's an interesting point!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, October 13, 2020, 11:56:58
The County where I live won't even give a license to sell alcohol on premise unless the establishment can show that 50% of the Revenue will come via food Sales.  I believe there are only two traditional bars that were opened long before that law was enacted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 14, 2020, 10:45:19
In these strained times an employment opportunity for Brexiteers to literally own their shit!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...portaloos-kent-queues-transport-b1034479.html

I don't recall taking a dump on the hard shoulder of the M20 being on the side of that bus?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 15, 2020, 06:27:43
Not just rules that are only for little people, taxes are too

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkUcc6sXcAAWCLi?format=jpg&name=small)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Thursday, October 15, 2020, 21:55:20
The great unwashed really can’t stand Dom, can they?  :D

Bless.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, October 16, 2020, 07:34:56
Quote from: Dr Pierre Chang
The great unwashed really can’t stand Dom, can they?  :D

Bless.

Suprised?He really is the Diamandis of politics. Or colossal cunt if you prefer.

On an unrelated point, anyone know where the road line marking machine went?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 16, 2020, 09:04:46
Come on people, vote for the Farage Garage!

https://www.change.org/p/kent-county-council-kent-lorry-park-to-be-named-after-nigel-farage


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mr Stevens on Friday, October 16, 2020, 12:04:43
Does "oven ready" mean ready to put in the oven, or is it still running around the barn, clad in feathers?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mr Stevens on Friday, October 16, 2020, 16:22:58
Apparently there are 12,000 fisherman in the UK (2018 figures). Are we assuming that this figure will shoot up if we get exclusive use of our waters and, if so, will that be greater than the number of jobs we will lose because of tariffs etc.

Is the argument about territorial waters, more "little Englander" talk then economic reasoning. I suspect its more isolationist dogma that I'm getting increasingly bored with.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 16, 2020, 17:42:50
Apparently there are 12,000 fisherman in the UK (2018 figures). Are we assuming that this figure will shoot up if we get exclusive use of our waters and, if so, will that be greater than the number of jobs we will lose because of tariffs etc.

Is the argument about territorial waters, more "little Englander" talk then economic reasoning. I suspect its more isolationist dogma that I'm getting increasingly bored with.
We could employ 200,000 in the fishing fleet, still got no market to sell  the catch too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, October 19, 2020, 13:40:16
The sound of a fish flapping...

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1318118951663161344?s=20


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Monday, October 19, 2020, 16:18:19
We could employ 200,000 in the fishing fleet, still got no market to sell  the catch too.

Then more of us should enjoy a delightful fish supper to help out.

In fact sea food of any kind.

Eat trout to kelp out


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, October 19, 2020, 16:27:43
Then more of us should enjoy a delightful fish supper to help out.

In fact sea food of any kind.

Eat trout to kelp out

Trout are freshwater fish, you plumb.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Monday, October 19, 2020, 16:44:48
Trout are freshwater fish, you plumb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_trout


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, October 19, 2020, 16:47:44
Doh!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, October 19, 2020, 16:48:35
Trouser Trout?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Monday, October 19, 2020, 16:56:51
Trouser Trout?

Trout lips :smugfu:


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Monday, October 19, 2020, 18:22:14
Then more of us should enjoy a delightful fish supper to help out.

In fact sea food of any kind.

Eat trout to kelp out
A fish supper washed down with a half pint of a local ale- great idea.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Monday, October 19, 2020, 19:13:28
Trout are freshwater fish, you plumb.

I hope you are suffishently embarrassed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, October 19, 2020, 19:15:27
fish is vile* to me.  I'd rather eat chlorinated chicken

* cod and smoked salmon & creame cheese aside.

the smell.. how could anyone eat kippers for breakfast..

screw the fishermen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Monday, October 19, 2020, 20:23:24
fish is vile* to me.  I'd rather eat chlorinated chicken

* cod and smoked salmon & creame cheese aside.

the smell.. how could anyone eat kippers for breakfast..

screw the fishermen.

Forget the kippers try mackerel 😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Monday, October 19, 2020, 23:14:12
I won't say no to some kippers if they are on offer.  A great way to start the day.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mr Stevens on Wednesday, October 21, 2020, 12:01:28
If you feel the need to have your faith restored in American politics, All4 are now showing the West Wing in all its glory. I think it's the best US drama I have seen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Wednesday, October 21, 2020, 18:47:25
Angela Rayner shouldn't have said the word scum in the HoC....but I have more admiration for her for not backing down


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, October 21, 2020, 18:55:33
Angela Rayner shouldn't have said the word scum in the HoC....but I have more admiration for her for not backing down

After what she had just listened to, I think "scum" was a rather restrained reaction to it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, October 21, 2020, 19:00:04
Should she have said it? Maybe, maybe not.

But she was fucking right. Fucking disgusting people, and most of those who voted against it will be the same ones that voted for their own pay rise.

They'll still get voted in again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, October 21, 2020, 20:00:23
Censured for saying scum whilst the prime minister lies and gets away with it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Wednesday, October 21, 2020, 20:18:32
Common as muck Rayner....and yes, I definitely would  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Thursday, October 22, 2020, 07:53:42
Common as muck Rayner....and yes, I definitely would  ;)
Jesus Christ


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 22, 2020, 11:27:51
Vicky Ford MP, THE MINISTER FOR CHILDREN, voted against in the free school meals vote.

I wonder how she voted when it came to her own pay rise?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 22, 2020, 11:41:01
Vicky Ford MP, THE MINISTER FOR CHILDREN, voted against in the free school meals vote.

I wonder how she voted when it came to her own pay rise?

As did Jo Gideon the Trustee of a charitee which *checks notes* works to eliminate hunger and its root causes from the UK....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Thursday, October 22, 2020, 11:42:36
I feel pretty strongly that the government shouldn't be spaffing our tax money (or future taxes through lending) into serco's pockets or for a fucking excel sheet....but in lieu of them helping feeding kids going hungry, does anyone know of charities (local or otherwise) I can donate to?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 22, 2020, 11:45:27
From Thatcher the Milk Snatcher (which was actually something of a nonsense) to Johnson the Child Starver (which really isn't)!

I feel pretty strongly that the government shouldn't be spaffing our tax money (or future taxes through lending) into serco's pockets or for a fucking excel sheet....but in lieu of them helping feeding kids going hungry, does anyone know of charities (local or otherwise) I can donate to?

Not sure about locally, but the Trussell Trust seem to be the most prominent national one, we made a donation to them last year in lieu of sending Christmas cards.

https://www.trusselltrust.org/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 22, 2020, 12:03:54
I feel pretty strongly that the government shouldn't be spaffing our tax money (or future taxes through lending) into serco's pockets or for a fucking excel sheet....but in lieu of them helping feeding kids going hungry, does anyone know of charities (local or otherwise) I can donate to?
Swindon Food bank https://www.paypal.com/donate/?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=UJQ4BGEM47DQ4&source=url

or Marcus Rashford's lot FareShare

https://fareshare.org.uk/donate/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Friday, October 23, 2020, 06:41:14
thanks gang


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Friday, October 23, 2020, 08:08:16
I wrote to Michelle Donelan, as Universities Minister and my local MP, to ask why she voted no. And I didn't swear once!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 23, 2020, 08:44:01
Good god...

https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2020/10/23/nicky-morgan-tories-blocked-extra-school-meals-over-being-called-scum/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, October 23, 2020, 09:22:17
As sinister as this recent debacle has been, it has at least resulted in a heart-warming outcome.

On Rasford's twitter feed there is example after example of restaurants and other businesses offering to provide free packed lunches and/or meals. Also of local councils promising to ensure kids are not left going hungry.

It's a big fuck you to the government and really helps to make then look like a bunch of vile cunts. Not as though they needed any help with that. Rayner was right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 23, 2020, 10:33:46
And for those who doubt that our own govt are not that far behind following Trump's playbook, Priti Patel is being criticised for inciting a far right terrorist knife attack on an immigration lawyer with her anti-lawyer rhetoric recently. The Law Society asked her to rein in the rhetoric in the wake of the attack, but instead she just increased it

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/10/lawyers-claim-knife-attack-at-law-firm-was-inspired-by-priti-patels-rhetoric?CMP=share_btn_tw

Interestingly, the police aren't describing this as a terrorist attack even though it's clearly (by their own description) a politically motivated attempted murder and it's not been widely reported. If this had been a Muslim with an Islamist agenda attacking a lawyer with knives, it would have been all over the BBC, Daily Mail etc as a terrorist attack.

In any reasonable country, a Home Secretary using language so incendiary as to incite terrorist attacks would be a national scandal and would be forced to resign. In the new Trumpian UK, it's not even news
The attacker has now appeared in court charged with preparing acts of terror and racially motivated violence. Not that you'd know that from the press, only being reported in the Times (which calls him a "knifeman" rather than the Nazi terrorist he actually is) and the Independent. Wonder if this would have had more coverage if he'd been brown?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/knifeman-attacked-duncan-lewis-law-firm-that-had-helped-migrants-cdmhwq7jw

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/terror-attacks-uk-solicitors-duncan-lewis-migrants-cavan-medlock-b1249349.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 23, 2020, 10:39:23
The attacker has now appeared in court charged with preparing acts of terror and racially motivated violence. Not that you'd know that from the press, only being reported in the Times (which calls him a "knifeman" rather than the Nazi terrorist he actually is) and the Independent. Wonder if this would have had more coverage if he'd been brown?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/knifeman-attacked-duncan-lewis-law-firm-that-had-helped-migrants-cdmhwq7jw

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/terror-attacks-uk-solicitors-duncan-lewis-migrants-cavan-medlock-b1249349.html

TBF the Mail is also reporting it, slightly sinisterly the BBC appear not to be?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, October 23, 2020, 11:46:20
Ironic that the Tory faithful are defending them on the meals disgrace, yet earlier used to trot out that we should be helping our own.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, October 23, 2020, 11:51:18
Good god...

https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2020/10/23/nicky-morgan-tories-blocked-extra-school-meals-over-being-called-scum/
Yeah, let's confirm we're scum. That'll show em!!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 23, 2020, 13:28:36
TBF the Mail is also reporting it, slightly sinisterly the BBC appear not to be?
They weren't when I posted. BBC are reporting it now, but it's buried in London local news. It would be their lead story if the terrorist was Muslim.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, October 23, 2020, 13:29:32
Ironic that the Tory faithful are defending them on the meals disgrace, yet earlier used to trot out that we should be helping our own.
So all lives don't matter after all then? So they were just being racist after all?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, October 23, 2020, 19:19:26
As sinister as this recent debacle has been, it has at least resulted in a heart-warming outcome.

On Rasford's twitter feed there is example after example of restaurants and other businesses offering to provide free packed lunches and/or meals. Also of local councils promising to ensure kids are not left going hungry.

It's a big fuck you to the government and really helps to make then look like a bunch of vile cunts. Not as though they needed any help with that. Rayner was right.

This is starting to play very badly.  Looking a bit Poll Taxy for the Tories.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, October 23, 2020, 19:58:12
This is starting to play very badly.  Looking a bit Poll Taxy for the Tories.

It must be simmering over there.

What makes it worse for them is that they are clueless as to how to manage the backlash. There was wasserface yesterday blaming it on Rayner for calling a tory 'scum'. So, tens of thousands of kids can go hungry because a tory MP was called a bad name?

How long before Moggy comes along and says something that really makes it boil over?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, October 24, 2020, 11:38:38
Tories on twitter: "We're getting abuse because Rayner called us scum"

So, nothing to do with you voting against feeding hungry kids?

Fuck off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: brocklesby red on Saturday, October 24, 2020, 13:01:25
I think Angela Rayners apology could go something like this,” I recently used the term Tory scum during a debate. I would like to apologise for using the term,Tory scum, i should  not have said Tory scum and I won’t be saying Tory scum again. Hopefully that will satisfy the 100 Tory mps who are demanding an apology from her.
It does amaze me that the party led by a man who can use terms like water melon smiles and pickaninny can get so upset with name calling.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, October 26, 2020, 11:58:36
Rumblings of (yet another) U-turn.

Apparently, a lot of tories are unhappy that the result is 'out of touch' with the mood of the nation. That would be the same result they that was reached with help from their votes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, October 26, 2020, 12:07:50
Rumblings of (yet another) U-turn.

Apparently, a lot of tories are unhappy that the result is 'out of touch' with the mood of the nation. That would be the same result they that was reached with help from their votes.

Isn't the whole point of these clowns that their job is to be 'in touch' with the mood of the nation?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, October 26, 2020, 12:14:32
Probably labour's fault ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, October 26, 2020, 12:30:28
Isn't the whole point of these clowns that their job is to be 'in touch' with the mood of the nation?
Dom said the focus groups all hated kids though. Probably shouldn't have used Tory backbenchers as the focus group candidates


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, October 26, 2020, 12:38:36
Probably labour's fault ;)

Fucking Corbyn!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, October 26, 2020, 15:41:13
The Lincoln Project are quite funny:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/25/lincoln-project-jared-kushner-ivanka-trump-billboards


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 27, 2020, 09:39:29
I can't help thinking that the latest Tory distraction campaign (which I assume comes from Dom as it suddenly popped up rather regimentally in the last 12 hours) flinging a dead cat suggesting that those who criticise the government are anti-Bame would be a lot more powerful if they didn't have a leader who said things like "piccaninnies with watermelon smiles" or compare Muslim women to letterboxes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 11:00:18
The summaries I've seen so far of the EHRC report into anti-Semitism under Corbyn (not had time to read properly) look pretty damning of what he allowed to happen on his watch and of his close circle. This quote stood out: that Labour had a culture which "at best, did not do enough to prevent antisemitism and, at worst, could be seen to accept it." And yes I know the Tories still haven't held that inquiry into Islamophobia in the party they promised and that any such inquiry would likely be equally as damning, but that's not the point. Labour and the left need to own this and say what they're going to do to ensure it is stamped out and stop it happening again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 13:06:46
When you compare what Starmer said this morning with Corbyn's statement (not sure what came first) I don't really see a way he can retain the whip.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 13:08:25
Corbyn suspended by the Labour party. This is going to go down well.

Politically, it's a bloody difficult thing for Starmer (or any Labour leader) to handle. Morally it's a minefield as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 13:27:24
Anyone fancy another decade of Tory power?

Labour are finished.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 13:42:49
Is it weird to think this increases the chances of Labour winning the next election, but also increases the chance of Labour absolutely falling apart and Jon Snow Andy Burnham being leader of half a party inside a year? It's very high risk.

Of course, quite apart from the political calculus, it's just very sad that it's come to this. I've never been quite sure what I thought about all this other than Corbyn was too stubborn (often labelled as principled, but I think that principled people sometimes change their mind when the evidence changes) to lead anything.

I suspect very few will change their mind today, and a lot will say things that they'll regret later. Will need time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jevs on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 14:19:39
Anyone fancy another decade of Tory power?

Labour are finished.

I suspect you're right, the nearest equivalent would be Kinnock expelling Militant in the  80s, they weren't of an equal profile yet it took defeats in two more elections before they were electable again. Maybe it can be spun positively to those lost voters though, we'll see sticking with Corbyn is going to be an issue for Starmer though.

There may be some truth in what Corbyn said, but you'd think he'd have had the wit to keep his mouth shut and not continue to be such an asset to the Conservatives. He truly was an utterly idiotic choice of leader; if he had the integrity he gets credited with he would have walked away when it was blindingly obvious that he personally was a significant issue for so many voters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 14:52:25
To think we were nearly duped in the 2017 General Election. Phew! A near miss.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 15:02:09
Corbyn suspended by the Labour party. This is going to go down well.

Politically, it's a bloody difficult thing for Starmer (or any Labour leader) to handle. Morally it's a minefield as well.

Makes it very easy for him to finally make the split and get rid of Corbyn once and for all, what will be the outcome of that who knows, albeit worth bearing in mind that Starmer won quite comprehensively against the Corbyn continuity candidate for the leadership not to long ago, so that suggests that whilst they are bloody vocal the momentum/Corbynites are not as powerful in the membership as many think and definitely not as powerful in the electorate as 2019 proved.

There may be some truth in what Corbyn said, but you'd think he'd have had the wit to keep his mouth shut and not continue to be such an asset to the Conservatives. He truly was an utterly idiotic choice of leader; if he had the integrity he gets credited with he would have walked away when it was blindingly obvious that he personally was a significant issue for so many voters.

If Corbyn really wanted Labour to be the next government, and was a pragmatist, he would be diplomatically silent, or at least temper his reaction in any statement, instead he comes out fighting and essentially backs Starmer into a corner exacerbating the shit enveloping the party today, interesting to see that his statement completely ignored one of the most damning parts of the report.

Nice to see the Corbynites have managed to get Rachel Riley trending on Twitter again today. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 15:06:56
I'm going to complain to the ECHR about the blatant unbalance of Commissioners in the ECHR.
8 out of 9 are white; 7 out of 9 are non-male and the only non-white member is a Conservative Party donor/
How very dare they!!!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 15:09:21
I'm going to complain to the ECHR about the blatant unbalance of Commissioners in the ECHR.
8 out of 9 are white; 7 out of 9 are non-male and the only non-white member is a Conservative Party donor/
How very dare they!!!!

But are they elected or appointed?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 15:17:46
appointed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 15:44:22
Starmer had no choice but to remove him.

Rachel Riley seems happy. I take it we can now expect her to push for a full enquiry into Islamophobia in the Tory party?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 17:13:44
Buckland sticking the boot in will go down well on here  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 17:21:32
what's the twat said now


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 17:35:19
Below. They haven’t had many opportunities to take the moral high ground recently so who can blame them!

Quote
South Swindon MP and Justice Secretary Robert Buckland said: "It is less than a year since the Labour Party and their current leader aggressively campaigned to make Corbyn prime minister.

"These damning revelations demonstrate that they are hopelessly divided and not fit to govern."

North Swindon MP Justin Tomlinson added: "We saw just how nasty the Corbyn cult was in North Swindon which led to the suspension of their parliamentary candidate.

"The EHRC report has shone a light onto just how embedded this was into the culture of the Labour Party.

"Keir Starmer is right to finally take action but it will never be forgotten that he campaigned to get Corbyn into Number 10."



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 17:48:04
yeah found it.

not defending Labour. But people in glass houses...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jevs on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 17:49:16
Below. They haven’t had many opportunities to take the moral high ground recently so who can blame them!

Quote
South Swindon MP and Justice Secretary Robert Buckland said: "It is less than a year since the Labour Party and their current leader aggressively campaigned to make Corbyn prime minister.

"These damning revelations demonstrate that they are hopelessly divided and not fit to govern."

North Swindon MP Justin Tomlinson added: "We saw just how nasty the Corbyn cult was in North Swindon which led to the suspension of their parliamentary candidate.

"The EHRC report has shone a light onto just how embedded this was into the culture of the Labour Party.

"Keir Starmer is right to finally take action but it will never be forgotten that he campaigned to get Corbyn into Number 10."


The Lickspittle twins have some level of point, hypocritical though it is given the lack of response to Islamophobia allegations in the Tory Party plus them having named factions within their own ranks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 18:48:19
Are any of the main parties in the UK fit to Govern?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, October 29, 2020, 18:58:49
Anyone fancy another decade of Tory power?

Labour are finished.

Maybe as a left wing party for the foreseeable, but finished? I'm not so sure.
They appear more electable to the masses under Starmer. The left of the party are not happy though.

Corbyn has been targeted from when he was in the running for the job from all sides. He maybe guilty of not getting it right but he's no anti Semite. Anyone who believes that is frankly an idiot.
Why this is highlighted, yet blatant Tory racism is brushed under the carpet says everything about this country. Rotten.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Valid Pint on Friday, October 30, 2020, 05:03:40
Are any of the main parties in the UK fit to Govern?

Does that matter to you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, October 30, 2020, 08:13:46
Are any of the main parties in the UK fit to Govern?

If the wings were clipped, maybe.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, November 2, 2020, 07:12:06
I see the fascist fraud Farage has been out propping up his fellow fascist fraud Trump in the US. Judge them by the company they keep.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 2, 2020, 09:51:30
I see the fascist fraud Farage has been out propping up his fellow fascist fraud Trump in the US. Judge them by the company they keep.

Just while he sets up his new grift, The Reform Party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 4, 2020, 12:12:41
Fuck sake, you would have thought the company names might have started alarm bells ringing!

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/nov/03/45m-deal-for-nhs-masks-collapses-amid-claims


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 12, 2020, 13:37:19
Cheerful reading....

https://threader.app/thread/1326554078256656389


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Thursday, November 12, 2020, 13:48:34
I wonder how may members of the entertainment group voted for it and will now complain about it..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, November 12, 2020, 18:33:57
Cheerful reading....

https://threader.app/thread/1326554078256656389

When driving towards a cliff edge, it is possible to stop.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, November 13, 2020, 00:41:25
I see Cummings is off


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, November 13, 2020, 02:09:05
Won't be long before BoJo is too then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, November 13, 2020, 07:23:56
Leaving just before his crowning achievement, Britain achieving it's freedom and embracing the world of opportunity that is Brexit. Strange decision that, you'd think he'd want to be in situ for his own vindication and the silencing of all the remoaners who've been so wrong for so long.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, November 13, 2020, 07:40:36
Rats fleeing a sinking ship comes to mind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, November 13, 2020, 07:46:06
I hadn't seen or heard from him since his grovelling speech in the garden after his holiday in Cumbria😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 13, 2020, 08:59:47
Nice to see that 'he said that he wanted to make himself "largely redundant" by the end of 2020.' so much like much of the population due to his ideology and policies then!

I hadn't seen or heard from him since his grovelling speech in the garden after his holiday in Cumbria😁

I think you mean County Durham, we wouldn't allow him in the county here!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, November 13, 2020, 09:00:33
Nice to see that 'he said that he wanted to make himself "largely redundant" by the end of 2020.' so much like much of the population due to his ideology and policies then!

I think you mean County Durham, we wouldn't allow him in the county here!

Apologies you're right!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 13, 2020, 09:29:38
Leaving just before his crowning achievement, Britain achieving it's freedom and embracing the world of opportunity that is Brexit. Strange decision that, you'd think he'd want to be in situ for his own vindication and the silencing of all the remoaners who've been so wrong for so long.
He's done the damage, now he's fucking off before the chickens come home to roost. Always the intention apparently, which might explain why he has run the govt so recklessly since he came to power. Easy to behave like that when you're not going to be around to deal with the consequences.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 13, 2020, 09:31:08
I hadn't seen or heard from him since his grovelling speech in the garden after his holiday in Cumbria😁
Yes you have. Every news story about COVID policy, or anything else come to that, that says "No 10 sources say" or "I understand from Downing St insiders" is Peston or Kuensberg acting as his mouthpiece.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, November 13, 2020, 09:36:10
I see your point but still haven't seen him :no:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 13, 2020, 09:38:43
I see your point but still haven't seen him :no:
Yes, it's almost like the country is being run by unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats isn't it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 13, 2020, 09:45:17
He's done the damage, now he's fucking off before the chickens come home to roost. Always the intention apparently, which might explain why he has run the govt so recklessly since he came to power. Easy to behave like that when you're not going to be around to deal with the consequences.

I would not be so sure, reading a report (from a Times Reporter so not one of those pesky librtards) that he has spent much of the last 12 months overseeing the gutting of an entire floor of the Cabinet Office and its conversion into some manner of super forecasting office for himself, hardly the actions of someone who was/is planning to fuck off.

Yes, it's almost like the country is being run by unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats isn't it?

Oh come off it, if he is going I for one am quite interested to know who the next Prime Minister is going to be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 13, 2020, 10:05:08
I would not be so sure, reading a report (from a Times Reporter so not one of those pesky librtards) that he has spent much of the last 12 months overseeing the gutting of an entire floor of the Cabinet Office and its conversion into some manner of super forecasting office for himself, hardly the actions of someone who was/is planning to fuck off.
I did say "apparently" :)

I assume Laura Keunssberg will also now have to step down, if her boss is going, she's got no-one to be the mouthpiece for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 13, 2020, 10:27:53
I did say "apparently" :)

I assume Laura Keunssberg will also now have to step down, if her boss is going, she's got no-one to be the mouthpiece for.

I feel for James Forsyth the Political Editor of the Spectator whose missus is Allegra Stratton the newly appointed Press Secretary who is, if many journalists are to be believed, the catalyst for the most recent kerfuffle and the removal of Cain, ally of Cummings whose missus is Mary Wakefield another Editor at the Spectator, those dinner parties are going to be fun.

Coincidentally Forsyth and Stratton and God Parents to (reciprocated) Rishi Sunaks kids, but please don't think for a minute there is any sort of cronyism going on in the upper echelons of our noble government! 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, November 13, 2020, 18:10:42
Cummings going.  Whatever else was discussed in that historic transatlantic call with Johnson, thank you very much, Joe :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Friday, November 13, 2020, 19:05:49
Trump - Cummings - Sutcliffe - a vaccine....  :pint:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 13, 2020, 19:46:02
https://twitter.com/i/status/1327308467376447488


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, November 13, 2020, 19:59:14
What a fu*king shambles this government is😃


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, November 13, 2020, 21:17:37
Dominic Cummings.
Dominic Goings.
Dominic Gone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BoA Vagabond on Saturday, November 14, 2020, 09:31:36
He won't go far. Cynical about anything the Tories do. I expect they are playing us and all has been planned well in advance. Boris to carry the can for Brexit deal or no-deal. 'They' have already started the preparations for a bright new dawn.
 "I just can't be happy today......"  :badmood:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Saturday, November 14, 2020, 10:07:48
I can’t help but think it’s another Cummings trick (I don’t believe he’s gone anywhere). I think it’s intended to show Johnson as being the strong dependable leader this clusterfuck needs.

Leaving out the front door with a single cardboard box seems too orchestrated to me. I genuinely believe it’s for show, more smoke and mirrors.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, November 14, 2020, 10:09:04
I can’t help but think it’s another Cummings trick (I don’t believe he’s gone anywhere). I think it’s intended to show Johnson as being the strong dependable leader this clusterfuck needs.

Leaving out the front door with a single cardboard box seems too orchestrated to me. I genuinely believe it’s for show, more smoke and mirrors.

Don't forget the bottles of champagne in the see through carrier bags which also looked staged


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, November 14, 2020, 10:24:44
I can’t help but think it’s another Cummings trick (I don’t believe he’s gone anywhere). I think it’s intended to show Johnson as being the strong dependable leader this clusterfuck needs.

Leaving out the front door with a single cardboard box seems too orchestrated to me. I genuinely believe it’s for show, more smoke and mirrors.

Another train of thought is quite the opposite.

Apparently, Cummings is Gove's man. Not Boris'. Some think it's a plot to weaken Boris to help pave the way for Gove to take over. At which point, Cummings will be back in again.

Either way, you can be sure that this fucker is up to something.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Saturday, November 14, 2020, 10:25:29
Gove as PM. Shudder the thought


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, November 14, 2020, 10:30:47
Gove as PM. Shudder the thought

Bring back Theresa May at least she had balls😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, November 14, 2020, 14:00:41
I can’t help but think it’s another Cummings trick (I don’t believe he’s gone anywhere). I think it’s intended to show Johnson as being the strong dependable leader this clusterfuck needs.

Leaving out the front door with a single cardboard box seems too orchestrated to me. I genuinely believe it’s for show, more smoke and mirrors.
Yep pure theatre. If he'd actually been sacked, he'd have snuck out the back door. And left from his actual office which is in Whitehall, not No 10. This was all about the photo op.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 18:40:22
Corbyn is back

RachelSwindon will be orgasming for a month

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54976558


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 20:44:39
Corbyn is back

RachelSwindon will be orgasming for a month

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54976558
Aye  all helps to keep the Tories in
...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, November 18, 2020, 12:32:33
National Audit Office has called out the procurement process during COVID which has seen billions trousered by friends of govt, for very little return, as "inadequate". Corrupt would be a better word

https://www.nao.org.uk/report/government-procurement-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/?slide=1&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=SocialSignIn&utm_content=COVID-19+procurement

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-high-priority-procurement-for-firms-recommended-by-mps-and-advisers-12135051

https://archive.fo/v5Kri

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/10/16/government-procurement-anti-corruption-strategy/

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/11/18/procurement-uk-government-report-coronavirus-national-audit-office-ppe/


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 19, 2020, 18:34:36
Priti Patel bullying inquiry report leak.. wonder if it's Cummings

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55007122 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55007122)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 20, 2020, 14:09:31
Priti Patel bullying inquiry report leak.. wonder if it's Cummings

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55007122 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55007122)
Johnson has decided not to sack her, even after she has been shown to have bullied junior employees, one to the point of attempting suicide and has now twice breached the ministerial code. In response, Sir Alex Allen, Johnson's own Independent Adviser on Ministerial Standards, resigns. Not much point having Code of Ministerial Standards or an Adviser on them when there clearly are no standards and no accountability.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, November 20, 2020, 14:11:33
What do you expect with that honey monster looking cunt in charge


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 20, 2020, 15:43:21
yeah, inevitable. No accountablity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 20, 2020, 16:02:02
"Siri, show me what happens when a political class believes they are no longer accountable to anyone or even bound by the rule of law"

https://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/is-trump-a-fascist/Content?oid=22617920
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/11/books/review/jason-stanley-how-fascism-works.html


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 20, 2020, 18:24:15
Johnson has decided not to sack her, even after she has been shown to have bullied junior employees, one to the point of attempting suicide

Have you got a link to this, not doubting you but it needs saying on another forum I frequent.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 20, 2020, 18:37:46
Have you got a link to this, not doubting you but it needs saying on another forum I frequent.
My apologies, should have evidenced it when posting

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/priti-patel-bully-staff-suicide-conservative-boris-johnson-a9370731.html



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, November 21, 2020, 08:29:26
If any of us had behaved this way in.our jobs, we would be dismissed.  No question.  Politics is such a grubby game.  Johnson has clearly decided he can't afford personally to lose Cummings & Patel in the same week.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, November 21, 2020, 09:26:01
If any of us had behaved this way in.our jobs, we would be dismissed.  No question.  Politics is such a grubby game.  Johnson has clearly decided he can't afford personally to lose Cummings & Patel in the same week.
You are so right on the employment dimension.

We like confidence in management but Patel's confidence is that of the out of control, spoilt child.

We regrettably know that her strident views on migration and asylum seekers command strong support in significant parts of the electorate.  Many like displays of strength including being forthright and even backing this up with occasional shouting and swearing.

Like it or not that weighs with her value to the CP.

But those kinds of "displays of strength" evidence a lack of control and focus and are 100% unacceptable in today's workplace.  If persistent, then dismissal will indeed follow.  She is a Public Servant, a Manager and an Employee.

This all ignores her truly bizarre "holiday" to secretly meet Israeli ministers whilst Home Secretary - the obverse of Cummings' strictly eyesight testing trip to Barnard Castle.

Any Government, regardless of Party, becomes sickeningly corrupt during a third term.  IMO.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, November 21, 2020, 09:40:00
Johnson: 'Form a square around the Prittster' (https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1362789/Boris-Johnson-leaked-whatsapps-Priti-Patel-bullying-defend-Home-Secretary-Tory-MPs)

A small part of me died when I read this.  These people actually govern.  FFS.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Hunk on Saturday, November 21, 2020, 11:42:27
I know somebody who works with Patel, and from what I've gathered she's got incredibly poor social skills. Naturally no empathy or ability to read people. It would be easy to point out that that is an accusation that could be levelled against many in government, but she, from what I have heard, has a particular problem with social interactions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Saturday, November 21, 2020, 12:30:58
How fucking tone deaf can you be.  Parents dealing with the hard work of the kids at school during a pandemic.  Its Anti Bullying week.

Let's legitimise bullying.

Seriously I despair that people who consider themselves moral look at the cronyism,  the bullying, the lying, the bribery, Etc etc etc and think oh well, these are the people who should be running the country.

Basically my Wife's family.  Upstanding members of the community running over 60's clubs and helping in the community.  How do they overlook it.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, November 21, 2020, 13:07:38

Basically my Wife's family.  Upstanding members of the community running over 60's clubs and helping in the community.  How do they overlook it.


Because 'but Corbyn'?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Saturday, November 21, 2020, 13:41:10
And now because Starmer.  Apparently.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Saturday, November 21, 2020, 13:47:46
It will always be the same.  It'll always be 'But someone' as they struggle to justify voting for likes of Johnson, Patel, Hancock... So they try to say the others are somehow worse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, November 21, 2020, 13:51:27
You are so right on the employment dimension.

We like confidence in management but Patel's confidence is that of the out of control, spoilt child.

We regrettably know that her strident views on migration and asylum seekers command strong support in significant parts of the electorate.  Many like displays of strength including being forthright and even backing this up with occasional shouting and swearing.

Like it or not that weighs with her value to the CP.

But those kinds of "displays of strength" evidence a lack of control and focus and are 100% unacceptable in today's workplace.  If persistent, then dismissal will indeed follow.  She is a Public Servant, a Manager and an Employee.

This all ignores her truly bizarre "holiday" to secretly meet Israeli ministers whilst Home Secretary - the obverse of Cummings' strictly eyesight testing trip to Barnard Castle.

Any Government, regardless of Party, becomes sickeningly corrupt during a third term.  IMO.
It was interesting that part of her "defence" was that she didn't know she was bullying people. Leaving aside the fact it's complete bullshit, that would almost be worse anyway. It would mean that she so lacked any capability to judge the affect of her behaviour on others that she was incapable of understanding when she was bullying someone. That she is a literal psychopath, in fact.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, November 21, 2020, 15:11:07
So, Johnson is "unintentionally" a pathological lying useless cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, November 21, 2020, 15:20:05
So, Johnson is "unintentionally" a pathological lying useless cunt.

This is good from Newshump.

https://newsthump.com/2020/11/20/school-bully-unintentionally-takes-dinner-money-from-five-pupils-and-punches-another/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, November 21, 2020, 15:54:30
If any of us had behaved this way in.our jobs, we would be dismissed.  No question.  Politics is such a grubby game.  Johnson has clearly decided he can't afford personally to lose Cummings & Patel in the same week.

Absolutely this. I had several conversations with my sister regarding this (she is subsequently partner of her company and previously head of people engagement). Without a doubt, when I questioned her regarding the actions of government and if those behaviours were mirrored within senior management or directors at her company. She flatly said, we would be out no question. Further, not so much restructuring, she said the company with that continued behaviour would cease to have a company with which to operate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, November 23, 2020, 20:10:52
As the Pro-Brexit politicians prepare for a No Deal and gather around their Norwegian Spruce Christmas tree, finally there is something for our Brexiteers to get excited about come the end of the year...

Nigel F: *Grinning like a cunt* Look Mummy, see they really do exist!
Rees-M: *Sucks thumb wearing a crocheted bonnet* It-it can't be, oh I must lie down I've come over all billy.
BoJo: *Scooping another ton of suet into his vitriolic orifice, know as the mouth* By humchucking numbuckers, this is better than forgetting how many kids I father!
Dom C: *In the shadows* I will get them on passports. I will.

https://www.iceland.co.uk/p/mccain-unicorns-454g/77928.html#q=potatoes&start=25


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BoA Vagabond on Monday, November 23, 2020, 21:03:43
As the Pro-Brexit politicians prepare for a No Deal and gather around their Norwegian Spruce Christmas tree, finally there is something for our Brexiteers to get excited about come the end of the year...

Nigel F: *Grinning like a cunt* Look Mummy, see they really do exist!
Rees-M: *Sucks thumb wearing a crocheted bonnet* It-it can't be, oh I must lie down I've come over all billy.
BoJo: *Scooping another ton of suet into his vitriolic orifice, know as the mouth* By humchucking numbuckers, this is better than forgetting how many kids I father!
Dom C: *In the shadows* I will get them on passports. I will.

https://www.iceland.co.uk/p/mccain-unicorns-454g/77928.html#q=potatoes&start=25
:D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 24, 2020, 09:29:44
(https://i.imgur.com/8H70Q3H.png)

It's right up there with the Prittster's boast that shoplifting has fallen.

It's almost as though they're not very bright - or they are very much aware that the same could be said about swathes of the population.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 24, 2020, 09:39:11
dear lord. He can't be that stupid.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, November 24, 2020, 09:39:36
The problem is FH, that staunch Brexiteers will feed on that nonsense, completely missing the point that this year has been 100% affected by a fucking global pandemic.

I presume that's what Redwood is trying to do. Absolute horses helmet of a man.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, November 24, 2020, 10:28:22
The problem is FH, that staunch Brexiteers will feed on that nonsense,

Indeed.

They're either thick as pig shit themselves or playing on the idiocy of others.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, November 24, 2020, 10:52:30
Indeed.

They're either thick as pig shit themselves or playing on the idiocy of others.
A little from column A, a little from column B. All these Tory MPs who are bitterly opposed to COVID restrictions because of the damage they do to the economy are going to lose their shit when they see what No Deal or Mini Deal Brexit looks like

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-banks-bailey-warns-long-term-effects-of-no-deal-brexit-worse-than-virus-12140542


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, November 25, 2020, 09:32:45
According to Allison Pearson in the Torygraph, the Prittster can't be a bully because she's short!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 25, 2020, 10:29:15
According to Allison Pearson in the Torygraph, the Prittster can't be a bully because she's short!

Its interesting to note that all these people lining up to support her and say that a) she isn't a bully and b) she is marvelous have one thing in common. They have never worked for, or been subservient to, her!

Edit, I note there is now a table doing the rounds;

Hitler             5' 7"
Mussolini      5' 6"
Napoleon      5' 6"
Stalin             5' 5"
Priti Patel      5' 3"
Kim Jong-il    5' 3"
Arafat              5' 2"
Deng Xiaoping  4' 11"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, November 25, 2020, 14:10:06
According to Allison Pearson in the Torygraph, the Prittster can't be a bully because she's short!

The defensive square formation to "protect the Prittster" is out in full force then, via all available horrible people contacts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 25, 2020, 16:52:32
 They just cannot help themselves can they.... https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/judge-rejects-improper-interference


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Wednesday, November 25, 2020, 17:38:13
They just cannot help themselves can they.... https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/judge-rejects-improper-interference

Troubling on a number of levels


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, November 27, 2020, 10:25:43
Here you go, for all you whinging Remoaners whining about "What tangible benefits will we get from Brexit?" - a predicted surge in dogging

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/dover/news/brexit-will-spark-rise-in-dogging-213622/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 27, 2020, 11:25:01
hahaha


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 27, 2020, 13:34:35
Here you go, for all you whinging Remoaners whining about "What tangible benefits will we get from Brexit?" - a predicted surge in dogging

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/dover/news/brexit-will-spark-rise-in-dogging-213622/

“Do Europeans even do dogging?" [the minister] added. "There is something deeply British about dogging.”

Ah, makes you proud to be a Brit! Blue passports, two World Wars and one World Cup, and now undisputed global supremacy in dogging!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 09:32:39
Daily Mail, which campaigned for years for Brexit to end freedom of movement, now furious that Brexit means ending freedom of movement

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EoFY0imXMAIk-Z2?format=jpg&name=small)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 10:25:39
So in short people who were furious when others suggested they did not know what they are voting for are now furious about something that they didn't know about when they explicitly voted for it to happen.

Have I got that right?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 10:31:39
So in short people who were furious when others suggested they did not know what they are voting for are now furious about something that they didn't know about when they explicitly voted for it to happen.

Have I got that right?
Not quite. Because they did know about it, lots of people told them, they just preferred to believe Johnson and Gove's lies that this wouldn't happen


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 10:36:30
Here you go, for all you whinging Remoaners whining about "What tangible benefits will we get from Brexit?" - a predicted surge in dogging

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/dover/news/brexit-will-spark-rise-in-dogging-213622/
What does Leggett do when he's bored?  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 10:39:25
Daily Mail, which campaigned for years for Brexit to end freedom of movement, now furious that Brexit means ending freedom of movement

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EoFY0imXMAIk-Z2?format=jpg&name=small)
It is ridiculous, though. Under the new rules any Brit can only spend 90 in any 180 days in another EU country. Anyone from an EU country can spend the entire 180 days in the UK. Rules should be the same.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 10:47:39
Advantage to EU citizens shocker.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 11:07:27
Not quite. Because they did know about it, lots of people told them, they just preferred to believe Johnson and Gove's lies that this wouldn't happen
Did Johnson, Gove et al ever actually say it wouldn’t happen though?

Either way, this is the will of the people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 11:35:37
It is ridiculous, though. Under the new rules any Brit can only spend 90 in any 180 days in another EU country. Anyone from an EU country can spend the entire 180 days in the UK. Rules should be the same.
They're not new rules. These have always been the rules for 3rd party countries which we now will be
Did Johnson, Gove et al ever actually say it wouldn’t happen though?
Yes. They said the Vienna convention would prevent this happening, but it only protects property not rights of residence

https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/738819385964568576?lang=en

http://infacts.org/brexit-uk-expats-rights-in-jeopardy/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 11:53:33
Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey
It is ridiculous, though. Under the new rules any Brit can only spend 90 in any 180 days in another EU country. Anyone from an EU country can spend the entire 180 days in the UK. Rules should be the same.

does this stuff up your current arrangements Audrey, or do you have some kind of residency thing?

feel for ex-pats, many of which (15+ years abroad) could not even vote in the brexit referendum


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 11:56:36
From the FT again.

(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/128702070_3166945693410693_7048436456808627793_n.png?_nc_cat=103&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=VPCnq2sWjnIAX_3HHNV&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-2.fna&oh=6fd4c04527b783afda7f4320db6e95d4&oe=5FEBF477)

(Ian Perkes is a major fish wholesaler, whose business - like similar businesses in the South West - exports mainly to EU countries)

These stories keep coming out, its really sad.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 11:59:18
These stories will come out but it won't change anything.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 12:00:22
does this stuff up your current arrangements Audrey, or do you have some kind of residency thing?

feel for ex-pats, many of which (15+ years abroad) could not even vote in the brexit referendum

I hope Audrey is alright, thankfully my old man is back from France now and thus not caught up in all this, albeit it will make their property in France worth even less (what is less of worthless I don't know) and I imagine bugger up the tenant they have in the place at the moment.

Yet there were literally thousands of ex pats saying until quite recently what a great thing Brexit was so my sympathy is limited to those who voted against or were unable to vote,  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 12:01:13
These stories will come out but it won't change anything.

Bluntly it cant change anything, we are out, its just the scrabbling for crumbs at the moment.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 12:05:19
I hope Audrey is alright, thankfully my old man is back from France now and thus not caught up in all this, albeit it will make their property in France worth even less (what is less of worthless I don't know) and I imagine bugger up the tenant they have in the place at the moment.

Yet there were literally thousands of ex pats saying until quite recently what a great thing Brexit was so my sympathy is limited to those who voted against or were unable to vote,  
Don't think that's fair, they were lied to by Johnson, Gove and the Daily Mail, among many others. What I found amusing was the Mail leading a campaign for freedom of movement for UK citizens within the EU


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 12:13:25
Don't think that's fair, they were lied to by Johnson, Gove and the Daily Mail, among many others. What I found amusing was the Mail leading a campaign for freedom of movement for UK citizens within the EU

Offset by the fact that c.5 mins of research on the internet pre referendum made the lies crystal clear for what they were, the information was all out there in open view, if people cannot be arsed to do research before ticking a box there is not much you can do for them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 12:17:04
does this stuff up your current arrangements Audrey, or do you have some kind of residency thing?

feel for ex-pats, many of which (15+ years abroad) could not even vote in the brexit referendum
Tbh, everyone knew this was the likely outcome so we applied for, and got, Greek resident permits last year. Anyone who hasn’t got this sorted before new rules come into force are either plain lazy or stuck their heads in the sand.

Tbh, the biggest problem is a number of British banks are closing ex pat bank accounts - luckily, at the moment, Nationwide have said they have no intention of doing so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 12:19:42
Tbh, everyone knew this was the likely outcome so we applied for, and got, Greek resident permits last year. Anyone who hasn’t got this sorted before new rules come into force are either plain lazy or stuck their heads in the sand.

Tbh, the biggest problem is a number of British banks are closing ex pat bank accounts - luckily, at the moment, Nationwide have said they have no intention of doing so.

Good stuff!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 13:50:32
Tbh, everyone knew this was the likely outcome so we applied for, and got, Greek resident permits last year. Anyone who hasn’t got this sorted before new rules come into force are either plain lazy or stuck their heads in the sand.

Tbh, the biggest problem is a number of British banks are closing ex pat bank accounts - luckily, at the moment, Nationwide have said they have no intention of doing so.
Good to hear.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 13:56:50
You don't get to keep using the weights or running machine if you don't pay for the Gym membership.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 14:36:30
I work in international health insurance and the last minute panic of brits in Europe is beyond a joke

We’ve known about this for 3 years + but twats ( and they are twats) are only now realising they need residency.

All governments are saying unless you are in work you need a certain amount of private health insurance. Basically so British pensioners who no longer have the reciprocal deal, don’t become a drain on their health systems.

Certain countries are adding such ridiculous stipulations such as you need maternity cover, even in your seventies( male and female)

It’s a proper fuck you to those brits who haven’t been paying taxes and suddenly realise they’re fucked.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 14:42:30
Can only speak for Greece here, but once you (an ex pat) are in receipt of a social benefit from the UK (state pension) you are entitled to the same healthcare as a Greek national - spouse of any age is also covered.

I know that in France healthcare costs are usually covered by the French state up to 70% with the remaining 30% needing private health insurance. It is a case of paying out first then reclaiming it. First class healthcare, though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 15:03:01
Can only speak for Greece here, but once you (an ex pat) are in receipt of a social benefit from the UK (state pension) you are entitled to the same healthcare as a Greek national - spouse of any age is also covered.
Is that going to continue? Good if it is


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 15:11:50
Would be the only country in the eu doing that!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 15:21:25
From UkGOV

‘If you live in Greece or move there before the end of 2020, your rights to access healthcare in Greece will stay the same from 1 January 2021 for as long as you remain resident.

This means you’ll:

continue to get state healthcare in Greece on the same basis as a Greek resident
still be entitled to a Greek EHIC for travel, including visits to the UK
You may also have the right to apply for a UK S1 if you start drawing a UK State Pension’


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 15:24:13
From UkGOV

‘If you live in Greece or move there before the end of 2020, your rights to access healthcare in Greece will stay the same from 1 January 2021 for as long as you remain resident.

This means you’ll:

continue to get state healthcare in Greece on the same basis as a Greek resident
still be entitled to a Greek EHIC for travel, including visits to the UK
You may also have the right to apply for a UK S1 if you start drawing a UK State Pension’
Nice one. Although given the govt's track record on being correct about what will happen come January, I'd want to check that that is also the Greek govt's view of the matter


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 15:27:38
All been checked and double checked. We’ve also had to apply for a Greek driving licence.

We’ve had lessons in excessive horn beeping, swearing and hand gestures and not showing off by parking correctly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 15:34:36
All been checked and double checked. We’ve also had to apply for a Greek driving licence.

We’ve had lessons in excessive horn beeping, swearing and hand gestures and not showing off by parking correctly.
Nice one


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 16:23:45
I had to retake my driving test after arriving in the USA, which involved driving around a car park, taking  a drive out, two turns and back in again.  The written test (online) was also funny - questions like, if someone walks out into the road do you a) stop, b) speed up, c) swerve to avoid them.  The only tricky ones were where they used words wrong - the pavement is actually the road here, which caused me some confusion when it was in a question.  One of the answers involved joining the pavement safely, which had me thinking for a bit - why would you drive on the fucking pavement?

Quite why people think that the world would keep turning for them once we exited is beyond me?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BoA Vagabond on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 16:28:58
My folks have been full-time in Spain for sixteen years and have been residents from almost day one. They have had to update their status post-brexit with a hefty fee attached for each. Just pleased they will still have access to the Spanish healthcare system that has saved their lives. No point them coming back here for sub-standard healthcare and damp days. All the elderly Brits out there that they know have got sorted out. The locals have been helpful thankfully.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 16:39:29
Never let it be said that American politics is intelligent:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/georgia-david-perdue-jon-ossoff-vegan-burger


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 16:51:40
From UkGOV

‘If you live in Greece or move there before the end of 2020, your rights to access healthcare in Greece will stay the same from 1 January 2021 for as long as you remain resident.

This means you’ll:

continue to get state healthcare in Greece on the same basis as a Greek resident
still be entitled to a Greek EHIC for travel, including visits to the UK
You may also have the right to apply for a UK S1 if you start drawing a UK State Pension’

That’s correct, but you need to be a resident. Ie. Get residency!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 17:02:31
Got that just after we moved here. The local police issue the permits and, tbh, some of them make it as awkward as possible. We caught him on a good day and had no problem.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 14:17:05
https://twitter.com/jamesrbuk/status/1333919015174098950?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, December 6, 2020, 14:46:17
So according to George Eustice, Environment Minister, talking on the Marr Show this morning, from Jan 1st we can look forward to price rises and food shortages. That'll be those sunlit uplands we heard so much about #ProjectReality

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000q6pr/the-andrew-marr-show-06122020
Starting from 54 mins, 15 seconds, if you're interested.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 7, 2020, 09:24:13
So according to George Eustice, Environment Minister, talking on the Marr Show this morning, from Jan 1st we can look forward to price rises and food shortages. That'll be those sunlit uplands we heard so much about #ProjectReality

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000q6pr/the-andrew-marr-show-06122020
Starting from 54 mins, 15 seconds, if you're interested.

This George Eustice? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

The George Eustice whose first foray into politics was as a UKIP candidate....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, December 7, 2020, 09:54:37
Very downbeat assessment of Brexit trade talks this morning.  It probably has to be No Deal now.  At least that way, there can be no blame shifting from the people who supported this.  Johnson and the Tories, having promised a deal for so long, will now have to own their calamity.  Own the supply shortages, the job losses and the increasingly real existential threat to the integrity of the UK.  There will, finally, be no one else left to blame.  And just maybe, it will mark the moment when the beginning of a movement to repair the damage is born.  No Deal is not an end point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 7, 2020, 10:03:39
Very downbeat assessment of Brexit trade talks this morning.  It probably has to be No Deal now.  At least that way, there can be no blame shifting from the people who supported this.  Johnson and the Tories, having promised a deal for so long, will now have to own their calamity.  Own the supply shortages, the job losses and the increasingly real existential threat to the integrity of the UK.  There will, finally, be no one else left to blame.  And just maybe, it will mark the moment when the beginning of a movement to repair the damage is born.  No Deal is not an end point.

I know that this is worst case scenario, but this makes terrifying reading and remember that any MP who pushes for no deal is knowingly pushing for this...
https://www.itv.com/news/2020-12-06/the-12-reasonable-worst-case-outcomes-if-brexit-talks-collapse



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 7, 2020, 10:05:38
oh come on Ardiles, the they'll 'blame it on Brussels'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 7, 2020, 10:08:49
oh come on Ardiles, the they'll 'blame it on Brussels'.

Or Remainers, or the dog!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, December 7, 2020, 10:29:04
I've seen plenty blaming the remainers - the very people who did not want any of this happening at all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, December 7, 2020, 10:31:33
We didn't believe in brexit hard enough. No fucking shit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Monday, December 7, 2020, 16:06:35
Can anyone out their explain to me the upside of Brexit?

Thought I would revist this question


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Monday, December 7, 2020, 16:19:55
I've seen plenty blaming the remainers - the very people who did not want any of this happening at all.

I blame Europe


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 07:14:03
Thought I would revist this question

The EU get rid of an awkward member state.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 09:19:29
The news last night did a piece about what is likely to happen if there is a no deal brexit. There will be more expensive food and less variety, but dishwashers will be cheaper!

Which is good as we are going to be in the market for a new dishwasher soon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 09:25:15
The news last night did a piece about what is likely to happen if there is a no deal brexit. There will be more expensive food and less variety, but dishwashers will be cheaper!

Which is good as we are going to be in the market for a new dishwasher soon.
@ChunkyHair. There you are, there's a benefit of Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 09:33:27
I've seen plenty blaming the remainers - the very people who did not want any of this happening at all.

Leavers:

Won the referendum
Won the subsequent election
Led the negotiations
Chose the PM
Are 100% of the cabinet
Won another election
Wrote the Withdrawal Agreement
Led more negotiations

And now say its all Remainers' fault.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 09:40:50
Leavers:

Won the referendum
Won the subsequent election
Led the negotiations
Chose the PM
Are 100% of the cabinet
Won another election
Wrote the Withdrawal Agreement
Led more negotiations

And now say its all Remainers' fault.
It's almost as if some of the more prominent Brexiteers have (finally) realised what a shit storm is coming and are trying to avoid blame for the catastrophe they created.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 09:49:44
Sadly indicative of todays' society; it is never my fault - there is always someone else to blame


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 10:11:39
@ChunkyHair. There you are, there's a benefit of Brexit.

Excellent - I knew there had to be an upside somewhere.  Unfortunately I bought a new dishwasher in August, oh well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 10:18:45
Excellent - I knew there had to be an upside somewhere.  Unfortunately I bought a new dishwasher in August, oh well.

So far we have dishwashers and dogging.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 10:28:20
The news last night did a piece about what is likely to happen if there is a no deal brexit. There will be more expensive food and less variety, but dishwashers will be cheaper!

Which is good as we are going to be in the market for a new dishwasher soon.


But water bills will go up😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 10:35:05
Sadly indicative of todays' society; it is never my fault - there is always someone else to blame

And many of those put on/beyond the brink due to higher food prices will continue to repeat 'but Corbyn'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 10:44:35
So far we have dishwashers and dogging.

I understand we now have 'control' having taken that back?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 11:06:15
Sadly indicative of todays' society; it is never my fault - there is always someone else to blame
Not sure it's today's society, but certainly the cabinet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 11:20:27
I understand we now have 'control' having taken that back?

Control over borders which we completely failed to exercise during a global pandemic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 12:03:12
'Sweet reason' (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55228490), FFS.

Another day, another meaningless soundbite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 12:10:33
Quote
Speaking to the BBC, Mr Johnson said: "I'm always hopeful, but I've got to be honest with you, the situation at the moment is very tricky."

Those snappy slogans have taken a nose dive since Dom left haven't they


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 18:28:52
So far we have dishwashers and dogging.

Is there a way the two can be combined...you know, to maybe save even more money. Maybe take the dishwasher outside?!  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 18:36:28
Those snappy slogans have taken a nose dive since Dom left haven't they


There is a new one soon to be announced promoting the benefits of a "No Deal Brexit":

· Dishwashers >> Dogging >> Non-Doms ·
 -------------------------------------------------
· Let's Get Britain Going Again ·


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 21:45:58
Monaco-based, patriotic Brexiteer, Jim Ratcliffe, whose jobs promise for Brexit/Tory-voting Bridgend Boris interpreted as a vote for Brexit, now abandons Bridgend in favour of France.

Britainhttps://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1336333265045635072?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 10:19:38
Monaco-based, patriotic Brexiteer, Jim Ratcliffe, whose jobs promise for Brexit/Tory-voting Bridgend Boris interpreted as a vote for Brexit, now abandons Bridgend in favour of France.

Britainhttps://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1336333265045635072?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Following in the footsteps of James Dyson and arch-hypocite Jacob Rees-Mogg. It's almost like all these leading Brexiteers are greedy hypocritical bastards isn't it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 13:26:55
If only Brexit-supporting papers such as The Telegraph had been able to warn us of these possible outcomes of the policy they so vigorously backed

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EovyEyJWMAEYZ1R?format=jpg&name=medium)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 22:21:21


These issues at Felixstowe have been going on for many weeks- and operation stack in Kent is a common occurance.

Quick everyone run for the hills- supermarket shelves will be empty and all of that crap.

Maybe we could all buy British- like we used to before the EU destroyed many of our home grown industries


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 22:28:21
Following in the footsteps of James Dyson and arch-hypocite Jacob Rees-Mogg. It's almost like all these leading Brexiteers are greedy hypocritical bastards isn't it?

And the EU are in it for love are they?

It’s one big protection racket- trying to get us to sign up to regulatory alignment to the level not seen n any other FTA around the world. And to make it even worse the rule would only work one way.

If we were so insignificant they wouldn’t be still trying to control us. They want access to our market then they have to respect our sovereignty


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 22:46:29
I think our position and standing in the rest of the EU has been proven over the last few years, and the way we are being dealt with. Rather be out. Norway and Switzerland seem to do ok.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 22:49:27
no deal is far more of a disaster for us than them.

of course the EU is going to protect their own interests in such circumstances.

buy British like we used to do 🤣. we are largely a service economy now, you're kidding yourself


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 22:54:34
In any trade deal or agreement, you give up a bit of autonomy (or sovereignty) in exchange for having free access to another market.  The Brexit delusion was founded on the false claim that the UK could have both.  And it's now becoming very clear (if it wasn't already) that we can't.  The EU's position has always been consistent.  Have as much sovereignty as you like, but the amount of free access you have to our markets will be in inverse proportion to that.  Seems reasonable enough to me.

Of course they have insisted on more alignment in exchange for market access.  We're 20 miles off the coast of mainland Europe and have a population of 65+ million.  Alignment matters far more than it would with smaller or more distant economies.  It's simple stuff.

In time, we're going to end up aligning with EU rules anyway, one way or another.  We're always going to be in the orbit of the trading block next door - 10 times our size.  Seems now the Brexit faithful are going to learn this the hard way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 22:59:27
It’s one big protection racket- trying to get us to sign up to regulatory alignment to the level not seen n any other FTA around the world. And to make it even worse the rule would only work one way.

If we were so insignificant they wouldn’t be still trying to control us. They want access to our market then they have to respect our sovereignty


I take it you voted Leave? You got the result you wanted, I have no idea why you are so surprised or complaining about it.

When you choose to leave something, it purely is that. Can't have your cake and eat it. When I left a job with a very lucrative pension scheme, I couldn't expect to continue receiving the same level of contributions from my former employer. I could nit complain that this was unfair or one way. How ridiculous. I chose to leave the role I formerly held.

The UK chose to leave the role it formerly held. Any agreement is likely to be one way because you are no longer privy to those benefits.

I don't really no what else you expect to come from it - in the long and short of it. Maybe your questions shouldn't be at the EU but at the MPs who agreed to the notion of leaving the European Union.

EU hold the cards. UK is now a small fish flopping about on the edge of a much larger pond. Once you realise that this is the case maybe the penny will drop.

You got what you wanted in leaving the party and now you aren't happy because the bouncers won't let you in on your terms :crash:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 23:00:47
I think our position and standing in the rest of the EU has been proven over the last few years, and the way we are being dealt with. Rather be out. Norway and Switzerland seem to do ok.

Exactly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 23:02:08
no deal is far more of a disaster for us than them.

of course the EU is going to protect their own interests in such circumstances.

buy British like we used to do 🤣. we are largely a service economy now, you're kidding yourself

Really? Have you done the maths? They have a 100bn trade surplus with us they sell far more to us than us to them. Bring in tariffs we will be better off or we could buy from elsewhere


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 23:03:27
In any trade deal or agreement, you give up a bit of autonomy (or sovereignty) in exchange for having free access to another market.  The Brexit delusion was founded on the false claim that the UK could have both.  And it's now becoming very clear (if it wasn't already) that we can't.  The EU's position has always been consistent.  Have as much sovereignty as you like, but the amount of free access you have to our markets will be in inverse proportion to that.  Seems reasonable enough to me.

Of course they have insisted on more alignment in exchange for market access.  We're 20 miles off the coast of mainland Europe and have a population of 65+ million.  Alignment matters far more than it would with smaller or more distant economies.  It's simple stuff.

No/ it’s not simple stuff at all. They are demanding conditions not seen in any other FTA and that no sovereign country could agree to.

In time, we're going to end up aligning with EU rules anyway, one way or another.  We're always going to be in the orbit of the trading block next door - 10 times our size.  Seems now the Brexit faithful are going to learn this the hard way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 23:05:36
I take it you voted Leave? You got the result you wanted, I have no idea why you are so surprised or complaining about it.

When you choose to leave something, it purely is that. Can't have your cake and eat it. When I left a job with a very lucrative pension scheme, I couldn't expect to continue receiving the same level of contributions from my former employer. I could nit complain that this was unfair or one way. How ridiculous. I chose to leave the role I formerly held.

The UK chose to leave the role it formerly held. Any agreement is likely to be one way because you are no longer privy to those benefits.

I don't really no what else you expect to come from it - in the long and short of it. Maybe your questions shouldn't be at the EU but at the MPs who agreed to the notion of leaving the European Union.

EU hold the cards. UK is now a small fish flopping about on the edge of a much larger pond. Once you realise that this is the case maybe the penny will drop.

You got what you wanted in leaving the party and now you aren't happy because the bouncers won't let you in on your terms :crash:

We are only asking to be treated the same as Canada for example which the EU refuse to do. This isn’t about trade at all it is about maintaining their “club” as they’re terrified we will be a success and others will follow suit.

Bring on no deal we will thrive and prosper


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 23:07:35
buy British like we used to do 🤣. we are largely a service economy now, you're kidding yourself

Yes but we can always go back to the "good old days" when TB was rife, paedos in high stature roles ran the show, and there were zero regulations on anything produced here.

We could go back to that. Bit outdated mind and I'd rather not. I'd rather we didn't leave the EU but that's been fucked up. We won't get back in during my lifetime.

The fact that this excuse for a Government are still having talks this late, only three weeks before the transition period ends is fucking laughable. It also shows how the lazy, can't be arsed attitude of BoJo is being shown for what it is. No doubt he thinks that trying to knob  Von der Leyen after Dinner will be the solution.

Sweet reason my fucking arse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 23:09:46
Yes but we can always go back to the "good old days" when TB was rife, paedos in high stature roles ran the show, and there were zero regulations on anything produced here.

We could go back to that. Bit outdated mind and I'd rather not. I'd rather we didn't leave the EU but that's been fucked up. We won't get back in during my lifetime.

The fact that this excuse for a Government are still having talks this late, only three weeks before the transition period ends is fucking laughable. It also shows how the lazy, can't be arsed attitude of BoJo is being shown for what it is. No doubt he thinks that trying to knob  Von der Leyen after Dinner will be the solution.

Sweet reason my fucking arse.

You really are seriously deluded. We have completed multiple FTAs with other countries - the reason we haven’t with the EU is that they simply cannot accept we are a sovereign country. No other FTA we have signed has demanded control over our waters/ level playing field rules to the extent the EU are demanding


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 23:21:34
We are only asking to be treated the same as Canada for example which the EU refuse to do. This isn’t about trade at all it is about maintaining their “club” as they’re terrified we will be a success and others will follow suit.

Bring on no deal we will thrive and prosper

Apologies but your mindset is totally deluded and akin to a child throwing toys out of a pram. We as a member (collectively) chose to leave the EU. The EU at one point yes, would have liked us to retain membership but they are far from terrified. If I were the head of the EU and saw the way the UK Government has behaved, I'd laugh at how shit they are and what a laughing stock the UK has become. They aren't fussed if the UK stays any more.

Again, I have no idea why you are complaining about the whole situation if No Deal is what you desire?!

But please do explain in your certainty, how the hell the UK WILL thrive and prosper? Because without agreeing to trade deals (anywhere in the world) then to access them ad hoc, will always come at a price. Although according to John Barron, it won't matter if prices of foods go up etc. Tell that to the public - many of which can't afford to pay for their groceries or heat their homes as it is. That knock on will impact negatively upon thousands, no millions of people in the UK. That could include people right here on the TEF.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 23:30:08
You really are seriously deluded. We have completed multiple FTAs with other countries - the reason we haven’t with the EU is that they simply cannot accept we are a sovereign country. No other FTA we have signed has demanded control over our waters/ level playing field rules to the extent the EU are demanding

You need to learn to quote properly. Also that response was to Batch.

I'm quite aware the UK have (not we) completed FTAs with other countries. One problem, this happens to be the largest single market in the world. I think your idea of "sovereignty" is outdated. As Ardiles says, the UK can keep as much of that as they want but that then comes with restrictions.  Like I say if you want part of the largest cake then your name has to be on the list - otherwise feel free to scratch around for crumbs (smaller FTAs).

But again, you are getting what you voted for - and a blue fucking passport. Woop!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 23:50:21
We are only asking to be treated the same as Canada for example which the EU refuse to do. This isn’t about trade at all it is about maintaining their “club” as they’re terrified we will be a success and others will follow suit.

Bring on no deal we will thrive and prosper

The idea that we're going to be offered similar terms to Canada (for example) is a bit naive.  Canada is thousands of miles away, has an economy half the size of ours and, as a result of these factors, has far less trade with the EU than we do.  So alignment is much more of a priority for the EU with us than it was with Canada.  I'm really surprised that so many Brexit supporters seem not to recognise this.

As for thriving and prospering without a trade deal with the mega-economy next door, I'm very doubtful.  We are going to have to copy their rules & regs anyway just to get by.  We're always going to be in the EU's orbit, whether we're a member or not.  In time, we'll end up aligning anyway, one way or another.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 08:03:59
Quote
Really? Have you done the maths? They have a 100bn trade surplus with us they sell far more to us than us to them. Bring in tariffs we will be better off or we could buy from elsewhere
exactly, according to this, we import more than we export

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7851/ (https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7851/)

we are reliant on the EU, they have more to lose as a whole but it's spread over multiple countries. thinking we can just replace that easily is folly

not that it matters, both ways will get shafted under no deal. that'll hurt us more. we can't spread the cost like the EU
------
of course they are playing hardball. they are protecting the EU and discouraging leaving it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 08:11:58
But things were so great in the 'olden days' before the EU, they will be again won't they?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 08:19:12
Putting aside the fact that losses to the EU are spread over many countries...

Let's say I have a business deal with a mate that makes me 1K/month.
His part of the deal makes him 3k/month.

He would lose more than me from stopping the deal but I would also lose out, so I don't want the deal to be cancelled. With that in mind, I try and ensure the deal carries on.

OF COURSE the EU doesn't want a no deal. They've made that quite clear from the offset. They don't want to lose out - why would they?.

But it does not mean to say that they need it more so than we do. Them trying to stop it does not make them more desperate than we are.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 08:33:46
But things were so great in the 'olden days' before the EU, they will be again won't they?

Absolutely. Bring on Polio and lard sandwhiches


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 08:39:21
And the EU are in it for love are they?

It’s one big protection racket- trying to get us to sign up to regulatory alignment to the level not seen n any other FTA around the world. And to make it even worse the rule would only work one way.

If we were so insignificant they wouldn’t be still trying to control us. They want access to our market then they have to respect our sovereignty

Nice to see you taking an interest again. Now you're here, could you answer the question that so far no-one seems to be able or willing to answer. What are the tangible, concrete benefts of Brexit? i.e. not flag-waving rhetoric, not vague generalisations, but actual concrete "This facet of life will be better for the ordinary British citizen from Jan 1st 2021"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 08:43:16
I think our position and standing in the rest of the EU has been proven over the last few years, and the way we are being dealt with.
Wholly agree that our position and standing in the the EU has absolutely nosedived over the last few years, entirely due to the our govt proving itself to be incompetent and untrustworthy to the extent that they are prepared to break international law. That will tend to downgrade a country's stock somewhat. That aside, what precisely is it about the "way we are being dealt with" that you object to? An actual example of such ill-treatment?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Broadbents Tackle on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 08:55:39
Putting aside the fact that losses to the EU are spread over many countries...

Let's say I have a business deal with a mate that makes me 1K/month.
His part of the deal makes him 3k/month.

He would lose more than me from stopping the deal but I would also lose out, so I don't want the deal to be cancelled. With that in mind, I try and ensure the deal carries on.

OF COURSE the EU doesn't want a no deal. They've made that quite clear from the offset. They don't want to lose out - why would they?.

But it does not mean to say that they need it more so than we do. Them trying to stop it does not make them more desperate than we are.

Which is why our only real available tactic is to look like we're completely mental, a bit like Nixon's madman theory. Fair play to this government, they've gone to some pretty extreme lengths to make themselves look incompetent, irrational, and insane.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 08:59:44
Wholly agree that our position and standing in the the EU has absolutely nosedived over the last few years, entirely due to the our govt proving itself to be incompetent and untrustworthy to the extent that they are prepared to break international law. That will tend to downgrade a country's stock somewhat. That aside, what precisely is it about the "way we are being dealt with" that you object to? An actual example of such ill-treatment?

Don't you ever watch Eurovision?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 09:01:20
they've gone to some pretty extreme lengths to make themselves look incompetent, irrational, and insane.

Or its completely natural.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 09:11:37
I'm quite looking forward to driving about in my new Austin Maxi in 2021!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 09:13:21
Don't you ever watch Eurovision?
I'll repeat the question. Wholly agree that our position and standing in the the EU has absolutely nosedived over the last few years, entirely due to the our govt proving itself to be incompetent and untrustworthy to the extent that they are prepared to break international law. That will tend to downgrade a country's stock somewhat. That aside, what precisely is it about the "way we are being dealt with" that you object to? An actual example of such ill-treatment?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 09:37:47
I'm quite looking forward to driving about in my new Austin Maxi in 2021!

Or a Maclaren?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 09:43:50
Nice to see you taking an interest again. Now you're here, could you answer the question that so far no-one seems to be able or willing to answer. What are the tangible, concrete benefts of Brexit? i.e. not flag-waving rhetoric, not vague generalisations, but actual concrete "This facet of life will be better for the ordinary British citizen from Jan 1st 2021"

Presumably it will help to improve mental health in that the ordinary citizen will not need to fret about:-

- "Sovereignty" having been taken by the EU;
- People who we might not like the look of or who sound a bit funny invading the country in great swathes.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 09:48:02
the Scottish?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 09:57:41
Or a Maclaren?

So a benefit for perhaps 1% of the population who can afford it, rather reinforces the idea that Brexit was just a way for the ultra wealthy to richer and fuck us plebs!

What I don't understand is that if no deal is going to be such a great thing why are the government continually trying to blame it on the EU/remainers if its such a brilliant thing why are they not celebrating and owning this great moment?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 10:33:14
Or a Maclaren?

Do you think I am made of money??


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 10:54:32
"Makes you want to jump over the top and shout 'ya boo, sucks to you Fritz”


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 11:00:11
I think our position and standing in the rest of the EU has been proven over the last few years, and the way we are being dealt with.
3rd time of asking
Wholly agree that our position and standing in the the EU has absolutely nosedived over the last few years, entirely due to the our govt proving itself to be incompetent and untrustworthy to the extent that they are prepared to break international law. That will tend to downgrade a country's stock somewhat. That aside, what precisely is it about the "way we are being dealt with" that you object to? An actual example of such ill-treatment?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 11:08:45
3rd time of asking
Wholly agree that our position and standing in the the EU has absolutely nosedived over the last few years, entirely due to the our govt proving itself to be incompetent and untrustworthy to the extent that they are prepared to break international law. That will tend to downgrade a country's stock somewhat. That aside, what precisely is it about the "way we are being dealt with" that you object to? An actual example of such ill-treatment?

Possibly the way we were allowed to opt out of bits 'we' did not find hugely palatable


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 11:49:39
3rd time of asking


Must be struggling to find an example of the Daily Mail website


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 12:50:01

Must be struggling to find an example of the Daily Mail website
TBF I was being slightly unfair in picking on 4D's post in this way but it struck me as an interesting example of what I have seen a lot of: the unevidenced assertion that Britain has been treated badly by the EU during negotiations when it really seems to be more that the British govt has just been a bit shit at negotiating. Which is understandable as they don't actually know what they want. But they then have to explain this lack of progress on what they assured us all would be "the easiest trade deal in history" because "we hold all the cards" bollocks which the likes of outletred are still spouting, despite it being glaringly obvious now, even if it wasn't then, that we actually have a very weak hand. Which we are playing badly. So to explain this difficulty, they just get their tame newspapers and sockpuppet social media accounts to assert that "the EU is being difficult" or "Britain is being treated badly". Without any evidence at all, but it plays well to those who find this accords with their existing beliefs (which, tbf, we all do at times).

So I thought this would be a good opportunity to ask someone making such an assertion if they could cite anything to back it up (because there may be, I've not seen anything but I'm not immune to confirmation bias either) or if it was just a general feeling they'd picked up from their favourite newspaper/website/social media accounts.

Apologies to 4D for using his post as the basis of this experiment. Other Brexiteers please do feel free to pile in with your tales of European perfidy.

Likewise with the "genuine tangible benefits" question. They seem to be long on flag-waving vagueness, incredibly short on actual tangible benefits in the face of looming economic disaster across multiple sectors.
Here you are, I'll start you off with a freebie: come Jan 1st, Britain will be free to ban the live export of animals from the UK. Whether we actually will remains to be seen, but that certainly would be a positive.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55167473


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 13:25:19
3rd time of asking
Wholly agree that our position and standing in the the EU has absolutely nosedived over the last few years, entirely due to the our govt proving itself to be incompetent and untrustworthy to the extent that they are prepared to break international law. That will tend to downgrade a country's stock somewhat. That aside, what precisely is it about the "way we are being dealt with" that you object to? An actual example of such ill-treatment?

I'm not on here 24/7, some of us have got some work to do pre Brexit  :)
I never said there was ill treatment, just the way we seem to be brushed aside with our requirements. The EU were always going to what's best for the EU. I don't think there will be any winners in this whole saga.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 13:25:59

Must be struggling to find an example of the Daily Mail website

Another great post from you. You must write a book.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 13:27:23
Do you think I am made of money??

I was thinking about the buggy  :)

You also have Vauxhall, Mini, Nissan, Land Rover, Toyota and others.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 13:29:45
Quote from: 4D
Quote
Do you think I am made of money??
I was thinking about the buggy  :)

You also have Vauxhall, Mini, Nissan, Land Rover, Toyota and others.

for now...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-55220840


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 13:33:11
I was thinking about the buggy  :)

You also have Vauxhall, Mini, Nissan, Land Rover, Toyota and others.

So actually, General Motors (US), BMW (German), Renault (French), Tata (Indian) and Toyoto (Japanese).

None of whom are British and all of whom have raised grave concerns about long term UK commitments post Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 13:41:01
I was thinking about the buggy  :)

You also have Vauxhall, Mini, Nissan, Land Rover, Toyota and others.

Remaking the original Mini would be a tangible benefit in my mind.  I love those cars.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 13:41:38
Shocking behaviour from Johnson yesterday...

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/ill-cut-off-my-own-dick-dont-think-i-wont-johnson-threatens-eu-20201207203295


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 13:49:06
A peep through the bullshit!

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1336951447339081728.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 13:51:49
I'm not on here 24/7, some of us have got some work to do pre Brexit  :)
Ha ha, fair enough, although tbf you did make several posts on other threads between the multiple times of asking. But as I say, I used your post as a hook to hang the point on really.

I never said there was ill treatment, just the way we seem to be brushed aside with our requirements.
That's been half the problem. The UK govt hasn't negotiated as such, just presented a list of demands or in most cases failed even to do that and then thrown it's toys out of the pram when the EU has either asked for clarity or refused to just grant demands without concessions. And the UK press have lapped that up hence the "EU are bullying us" bullshit when it's actually largely
been a case of "What the fuck do you actually want?"

The EU were always going to what's best for the EU. I don't think there will be any winners in this whole saga.
No there won't. But we will be much bigger losers. cf the points that others have made very well about the EU being able to spread the pain across 27 economies while we take the whole hit full in the face. On top of the worst economic fallout in Europe from COVID.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 14:21:12
So actually, General Motors (US), BMW (German), Renault (French), Tata (Indian) and Toyoto (Japanese).

None of whom are British and all of whom have raised grave concerns about long term UK commitments post Brexit.

There's still going to be British customers, especially if people decide to drop buying EU built motors.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 14:24:26
There's still going to be British customers, especially if people decide to drop buying EU built motors.

Hopefully so albeit I wonder what the effect of potential tariffs will have on the market.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 14:25:05
There's still going to be British customers, especially if people decide to drop buying EU built motors.

But they're unlikely to remain in Britain for the sake of what would likely be a small market in comparison to Europe (and further afield).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 14:43:21
Hopefully so albeit I wonder what the effect of potential tariffs will have on the market.

Probably just more people ending up adding a higher level of debt to their lease agreements


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 14:57:38
Probably just more people ending up adding a higher level of debt to their lease agreements

Likely for the domestic market but that's a drop in the ocean, but for the manufacturers themselves if you have tariffs on the stuff coming in (if it can get through the ports JIT to meet your operational model) then tariffs on the goods going out its just not worth the hassle is it, plenty of empty capacity in Europe at the moment waiting to be filled.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 14:58:09
There's still going to be British customers, especially if people decide to drop buying EU built motors.
Patrick Minford, Vote Leave's pro-Brexit economist (pretty much the only one in fact), is on record as saying there won't be a British car industry post-Brexit and seems to regard it as a price worth paying:

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/business-economics/evidence-given-by-vote-leaves-economics-expert-in-2012-comes-to-light-as-manufacturing-concerns-surface/30/09/

So there may well be British customers, but probably not for British built cars. Even arch-Brexiteer Jim Ratcliffe is taking his new car manufacturing to France.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 17:26:44
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eo4iCtCW8AI_GP5?format=jpg&name=small)
https://twitter.com/Trump_ton/status/1337043604943089669


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 17:52:36
Is there any polling to show public support currently for leaving the EU on WTO terms?  There are plenty of Leavers who will tell you that No Deal was what they intended all along.  But I don't remember anyone giving this option serious credence back in 2016.  Historians will write volumes in future on how, during the 4+ yrs that followed the vote, No Deal came from nowhere to become the most likely method of leaving.

I ask the question (about polling) because there are reports of Tory MPs getting a bit jumpy in private about a WTO exit.  They're holding the line in public, but there seems to be a bit of unease creeping it that they might now actually have to shepherd this through.  No Deal also removes the Labour dilemma as to whether they vote for a deal or not.  Without a deal, Brexit is entirely Tory.  No-one else's.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 18:18:00
Maybe it's time to cut back on the massive foreign aid budget.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 18:20:11
Quote from: 4D
Maybe it's time to cut back on the massive foreign aid budget.
I'm not even sure if you're trolling now


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 18:23:27
Everyone assumes we're going down the pan, why do we pay money to countries with decent economies?
I'm not talking about poor countries or aid towards climate change etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 18:25:59
I assume you saw we are reducing the foreign aid budget.

It's a question of morality. We are a super rich nation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 18:28:10
So what's the panic about then? It's like doomsday on here. I think initially we'll have problems due to Brexit but the World doesn't stop spinning.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 19:27:50
I assume you saw we are reducing the foreign aid budget.

It's a question of morality. We are a super rich nation.
In simple terms we have cut the foreign aid budget and bought guns (defence budget gone up broadly by a comparative figure).


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 19:31:02
So what's the panic about then? It's like doomsday on here. I think initially we'll have problems due to Brexit but the World doesn't stop spinning.
Doesn't stop spinning if you have a job insulated or if you can absorb a hike in food prices, if you can't you are basically fucked, and the fun bit is come January when food and medicine shortages emerge (not TEF doomsday the governments own documents) the EU's price to bail us out of our collective mid life crisis will be higher than it is now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 19:58:27
Is there any polling to show public support currently for leaving the EU on WTO terms?  There are plenty of Leavers who will tell you that No Deal was what they intended all along.  But I don't remember anyone giving this option serious credence back in 2016.
That's because back then the leaders of the Leave campaign lied that No Deal wasn't an option to reassure people that that wasn't what they voted for and continued to do so even after the Referendum.

In April 2016, Vote Leave issued a press release, criticising an OECD report on the potential impact of Brexit that contained the "flawed assumption" that the UK might not do a free trade deal with the EU after Brexit: "The OECD states that: ‘trade with the EU and other countries would initially revert to a WTO MFN-basis’. This is a highly flawed assumption that not even the IN campaign seriously contemplates as a realistic possibility. Leading pro-EU campaigners have admitted the UK will strike a free trade agreement if we Vote Leave."

Two days before the referendum Gove told the BBC
"No-one is seriously arguing that Britain would be outside that free trade area, that tariff barriers would be erected and that Britain's manufacturing goods would be at a disadvantage."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49165836

In July 2017 Johnson blustered to the House Of Commons that "There is no plan for No Deal because we're going to get a great deal"
https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/efe22c03-c1cb-4f78-8351-1efdb7d0aa22?in=11:51:08

Around the same time Liam Fox boasted that "The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/20/liam-fox-uk-eu-trade-deal-after-brexit-easiest-human-history

In March 2019 Gove said "We didn’t vote to leave without a deal. That wasn’t the message of the campaign I helped lead. Leaving without a deal on March 29 would not honour that commitment. It would undoubtedly cause economic turbulence. Almost everyone in this debate accepts that."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6793255/MICHAEL-GOVE-backing-Prime-Ministers-deal-EU-ensure-Brexit-happens.html

In June 2019, Johnson blathered his infamous "million to one" quote (about the odds of leaving without a deal)
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-leader/boris-johnson-says-chances-of-no-deal-brexit-are-a-million-to-one-idUKKCN1TR1IX

In September 2019 Johnson said (correctly for once) that leaving the EU without a deal "would be a failure of statecraft for which we would all be responsible"
https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-09/leo-varadkar-boris-johnson-frosty-press-conference

And here we are. Staring down the abyss of Johson's "failure of statecraft"

FWIW, I think they will pull off a last minute, paper-thin, may-as-well-not-bother deal. I think the theatrics this week have been a show  to
1) Scare the shit out of Tory MPs who might have balked at the details of the shit deal he will get, from both wings, the "Christ is that it?" wing and the "Surrendering are sovrinty" wing
2) Be able to present a miserable paper thin shit deal as a "victory" that Johnson pulled out of the hat at the last minute by his personal intervention.

 An abject national humiliation dressed up as a dramatic "victory". Kuensberg, Peston, The Mail, Telegraph, the Express and their readers will lap it up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 20:21:13
You're knob on there Paul.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 20:23:10
Did I miss the post listing all the tangible benefits of Brexit? Can someone link it for me?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 20:25:08
Did I miss the post listing all the tangible benefits of Brexit? Can someone link it for me?
Outletred will be along with it any moment.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 20:28:08
Outletred will be along with it any moment.

Cheers mate.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 20:30:56
Outletred will be along with it any moment.
https://youtu.be/htobTBlCvUU


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 20:51:56
Did I miss the post listing all the tangible benefits of Brexit? Can someone link it for me?

More dogging.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 20:58:48
More dogging.

It's dogging, dishwashers and non-doms  :pint:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 20:59:12
More dogging.

What, in an Austin Mini?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 21:02:22
What, in an Austin Mini?

Nah, an Austin Metro. More room apparently.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 21:29:17
What, in an Austin Mini?

There's just no pleasing some people!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 21:34:00
My first car was an Austin Mini, then an MG Midget. British motors.
I drive an Audi now  :-[


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BoA Vagabond on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 22:10:48
That's because back then the leaders of the Leave campaign lied that No Deal wasn't an option to reassure people that that wasn't what they voted for and continued to do so even after the Referendum.

In April 2016, Vote Leave issued a press release, criticising an OECD report on the potential impact of Brexit that contained the "flawed assumption" that the UK might not do a free trade deal with the EU after Brexit: "The OECD states that: ‘trade with the EU and other countries would initially revert to a WTO MFN-basis’. This is a highly flawed assumption that not even the IN campaign seriously contemplates as a realistic possibility. Leading pro-EU campaigners have admitted the UK will strike a free trade agreement if we Vote Leave."

Two days before the referendum Gove told the BBC
"No-one is seriously arguing that Britain would be outside that free trade area, that tariff barriers would be erected and that Britain's manufacturing goods would be at a disadvantage."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49165836

In July 2017 Johnson blustered to the House Of Commons that "There is no plan for No Deal because we're going to get a great deal"
https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/efe22c03-c1cb-4f78-8351-1efdb7d0aa22?in=11:51:08

Around the same time Liam Fox boasted that "The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/20/liam-fox-uk-eu-trade-deal-after-brexit-easiest-human-history

In March 2019 Gove said "We didn’t vote to leave without a deal. That wasn’t the message of the campaign I helped lead. Leaving without a deal on March 29 would not honour that commitment. It would undoubtedly cause economic turbulence. Almost everyone in this debate accepts that."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6793255/MICHAEL-GOVE-backing-Prime-Ministers-deal-EU-ensure-Brexit-happens.html

In June 2019, Johnson blathered his infamous "million to one" quote (about the odds of leaving without a deal)
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-leader/boris-johnson-says-chances-of-no-deal-brexit-are-a-million-to-one-idUKKCN1TR1IX

In September 2019 Johnson said (correctly for once) that leaving the EU without a deal "would be a failure of statecraft for which we would all be responsible"
https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-09/leo-varadkar-boris-johnson-frosty-press-conference

And here we are. Staring down the abyss of Johson's "failure of statecraft"

FWIW, I think they will pull off a last minute, paper-thin, may-as-well-not-bother deal. I think the theatrics this week have been a show  to
1) Scare the shit out of Tory MPs who might have balked at the details of the shit deal he will get, from both wings, the "Christ is that it?" wing and the "Surrendering are sovrinty" wing
2) Be able to present a miserable paper thin shit deal as a "victory" that Johnson pulled out of the hat at the last minute by his personal intervention.

 An abject national humiliation dressed up as a dramatic "victory". Kuensberg, Peston, The Mail, Telegraph, the Express and their readers will lap it up.

Yes, it's either a massive fail or a paper-thin deal where bits get added later if we are lucky. Either way it isn't what was promised. Pantomime season and Boris is the horses-arse. Still waiting for anyone to supply a benefit of brexit that actually benefits the lives of the non-rich.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 10, 2020, 22:58:10
Gisela Stuart was the Chair of Vote Leave. She was a useful sock puppet because she was a Labour MP and German by birth. She's spent the last 4 years rubbishing the idea that No Deal was a possibility as "Project Fear". Tonight on Sky News she said "No Deal is not a preferred option for either side, but the solution is now a political one. We probably need to accept that their commitment to how they define the Single Market is even more fundamental than we had appreciated."

So the chair of Vote Leave has admitted they didn't understand the Single Market, gambled and got it completely wrong, and fucked us all over in the process. But she's OK, she was one of the Brexit peers who got ennobled for her services to Brexit by Johnson. Along with the ex-Trot IRA supporting paedo fan Claire Fox.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, December 11, 2020, 06:07:42
I drive an Audi now  :-[

Explains a lot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, December 11, 2020, 09:37:53
Gisela Stuart was the Chair of Vote Leave. She was a useful sock puppet because she was a Labour MP and German by birth. She's spent the last 4 years rubbishing the idea that No Deal was a possibility as "Project Fear". Tonight on Sky News she said "No Deal is not a preferred option for either side, but the solution is now a political one. We probably need to accept that their commitment to how they define the Single Market is even more fundamental than we had appreciated."

So the chair of Vote Leave has admitted they didn't understand the Single Market, gambled and got it completely wrong, and fucked us all over in the process. But she's OK, she was one of the Brexit peers who got ennobled for her services to Brexit by Johnson. Along with the ex-Trot IRA supporting paedo fan Claire Fox.

The SM is the overriding reason 27 EU States share parts of their sovereignty with each other and accept shared regulation.

If the UK were to meaningfully participate in the SM whilst not at the very least being dynamically aligned to basic EU standards, then the 27 whose acceptance of the EU regulatory framework would be mugs.  Alongside the EEA members and the Swiss.

The UK is not being forced to dynamically align.  It is only asked to do so if it wishes to share in the benefits of the SM.  It would remain quite free to cut standards in employee rights, health and safety, the environment etc.  It would just be that the EU would not be forced to stick with a maverick cuckoo stuck inside its ordered nest.

We all recall Farage observing that the Swiss seem to do alright.  Funnily enough, a series of bilateral Swiss-style arrangements, may have been something the UK could have pursued.  It is tailored, adaptable, evolving and allows the Swiss plenty of sovereignty, albeit with EU control over facets of its own SM.

Unfortunately, unlike the Swiss who approach EU negotiations from a positive perspective, the UK  sloganeers "Leave means Leave".  Its media is permanently infected with Brussels being portrayed as some sort of Nazi dictatorship.  The UK has indeed left.  If it wants an FTA, indeed substantial access to the SM, it needs to approach the EU with some positivity rather than antagonism - and of course, negotiate, in its own interests.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 11, 2020, 13:01:11
Spot on.  Excellent summary.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Friday, December 11, 2020, 14:39:07
Totally wrong- again as per usual.

The EU have given Canda and other countries the access to their single market that we are after, we are not looking for anything more than they have given other third countries.

The reason they won't without dynamic alignment (that is present in no other FTA's to this degree by the way) is purely ideological.

The EU know full well no sovereign country would ever agree to these terms, they bully and bully and it seems to me they have still not come to terms with the fact we have left.

Also if we are so small and insignificant, why are they so scared of a competitor on their door step?

Regards fishing- name me one other Free trade agreement around the world where a country gives up its sovereign fishing rights, quotas are agreed annually which they should be here and like we have already agreed with Norway and Iceland.

The EU are used to if a vote does not go their way, either getting countries to vote again (Ireland, Denmark, France to name 3) or bullying countries into submission- won't work with the Brits thankfully.

Bring on no deal- we will deal with any bumps in the road and propser mightily- you only have to look at the FTAs we have done with other countries to know how easy it should have been- the EU chose for it to be this way.
 



[/quote]


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, December 11, 2020, 14:46:52
Whether you care for no deal Brexit or not is irrelevant in the respect that Boris lied to the nation. There was no oven ready deal. He didn't even have the ingredients. He's fucking con artist.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, December 11, 2020, 14:47:18
CETA - negotiations started in 2009, concluded in 2014 and went into effect in 2017.  Not quite sure such an agreement is likely in 11 months, but good luck with that.  It's also not FREE and unbridled trade like full access to the SM, it removed a significant number of existing tariffs with an aim to boost exports to Canada.

It's primarily for goods, not services, and does not remove border checks, plus it includes provisions for common standards.

Good choice though Outledred - the newly Sovereign UK can indeed work on such a deal over the next 5 years or so if it so chooses.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 11, 2020, 14:53:15
The EU know full well no sovereign country would ever agree to these terms, they bully and bully and it seems to me they have still not come to terms with the fact we have left.


There are 27 sovereign countries in the EU and they have managed and continue to manage just fine.

Have a little read, you might better understand how you are being used and lied to.... https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1336951447339081728.html

Anyway these benefits you keep getting asked to list, the floor is yours.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, December 11, 2020, 14:57:11
It is strange, though, that the one thing the EU don’t want - the UK undercutting them on various services - is the one thing that is guaranteed if there is a no deal.

I’m sure I read a while ago that the UK was looking at slashing Corporation Tax to 15% - which would see a stampede of large companies heading to the UK from Europe. Much the same as how Dublin managed to attract some huge multinationals with its 12.5% rate.

It’s all childish tit for tat with everyone paying the price.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, December 11, 2020, 15:12:38
It is strange, though, that the one thing the EU don’t want - the UK undercutting them on various services - is the one thing that is guaranteed if there is a no deal.

I’m sure I read a while ago that the UK was looking at slashing Corporation Tax to 15% - which would see a stampede of large companies heading to the UK from Europe. Much the same as how Dublin managed to attract some huge multinationals with its 12.5% rate.

It’s all childish tit for tat with everyone paying the price.

Well, that depends - if those companies need to do significant amount of transactions through the EU and tariff's are now in place, the cut in overall Corporate Tax rates may not be sufficient to tempt them.  Don't forget they've done a fairly good job at avoiding the need to pay that much in Tax anyway.

Look, it's pretty simple.  Acting as a "Sovereign" Country in isolation and having to negotiate trade deals with new partners is going to be tougher than being part of an Economic Freed Trade area the size of the EU.  It's the price to pay - the only debate is whether or not the price was worth paying?  Outledred and others like them are quite entitled to say it is worth it - just don't pretend the immediate 5-10 years after is going to be a breeze in economic terms.  Can the UK survive as an island state? of course it can.  Just remember it joined for a reason and probably can't go around forcing other countries to trade with it freely like the good old Victorian days either.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Friday, December 11, 2020, 15:23:42
Whether you care for no deal Brexit or not is irrelevant in the respect that Boris lied to the nation. There was no oven ready deal. He didn't even have the ingredients. He's fucking con artist.

He was referring to the withdrawal agreement not a trade deal this was perfectly clear.

The EU have made an acceptable deal impossible


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Friday, December 11, 2020, 15:27:02
There are 27 sovereign countries in the EU and they have managed and continue to manage just fine.

Have a little read, you might better understand how you are being used and lied to.... https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1336951447339081728.html

Anyway these benefits you keep getting asked to list, the floor is yours.



They are not sovereign, they do not have control over a large part of domestic law as it is decided by  the ECJ.

As for benefits:

Stop sending large amounts of money to the EU project, and spend it here at home

Control of our own sovereign coastal waters- which Tead Heath criminally gave away

Make our own laws and vote out politicians if we do not like them- we cannot vote out the EU commission

Control our own borders- we are an Island and do not have the infrastructure to give access to 500m people to move here

Renew partnerships with the rest of the world and make trade deals without the EU around are necks

There are many more this is just for starters


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, December 11, 2020, 15:39:21
He was referring to the withdrawal agreement not a trade deal this was perfectly clear.


If you had any credibility remaining - you just lost it.

I don't know why the others waste their time on you. You're just too far gone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, December 11, 2020, 15:39:35
Laws and Borders:

On these two, and I am not debating the right or wrongs of holding the view you have, a couple of points.  Just to make sure I am clear.

You do know the Commission is like a sort of Admin team - they create the legislative proposal, that much is correct, but the laws are passed by representatives of the Elected Governments and directly elected officials from each Country - Council & Parliament.  Just checking, because the process may be different to the UK, but you do have a say in the process as it exists today.  It is certainly diluted, but plenty of people don;t much care for the House of Lords and Monarch being unelected.

On Borders - this is the real reason, isn't it?  And again, so what if it is - plenty agree with you.  If it is, then, is the benefit that we can cut benefits (which we always had control over anyway) or that we will be able to give more jobs to the local, or simply determining that population growth is bad?  I am honestly intrigued by the reasoning because I hold a diametrically opposed view on immigration so have always struggled with why people think this way (I am not saying I am right - I know I hold a minority view).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Friday, December 11, 2020, 15:59:21
Yep and John Lennon is watching from the ashtray. Oh hang on that's a different poor taste joke


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, December 11, 2020, 16:10:05
He was referring to the withdrawal agreement not a trade deal this was perfectly clear.

The EU have made an acceptable deal impossible

Was he bollocks :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, December 11, 2020, 16:17:04
I am honestly intrigued by the reasoning because I hold a diametrically opposed view on immigration so have always struggled with why people think this way (I am not saying I am right - I know I hold a minority view).

All those in favour say "aye" - Aye!

I am also one who does not believe there is really an immigration problem. It is something the UK and other nations can afford to pay and accommodate. Can't remember how many times I've mentioned, how insignificant the cost is. Think it works out at something like less than 20p per week to the UK taxpayer.

Taking the largest number (not all of these will have been granted asylum) of c135k Refugees and pending asylum cases (I've rounded this up, it's more like 133k).

A weekly payment of £40 pw (it's less for most, about £37pw and quite a lot don't receive anything if they turn down "housing").

135k
x
£40
=
£5.4m pw

x
52
=
£280.8m pa

There are c30m UK taxpayers.

£280.8m
/
30m
=
£9.36 pa.pp
/
52
=
£0.18p pw.pp
/
7
=
£0.0257p pd.pp

So we'll round it up and call it 3p per day as the cost to the UK taxpayer. I bet a good bunch of that 30m throw away at least 5p a day in change after buying a Coffee every morning. The UK does not have an immigration problem and even if we supposedly did, we can duly afford and accommodate it. It is not the huge "tax burden" that gets falsely banded around.

I think it probably has more to do with people not liking someone who might speak differently to them or (shock horror) have a different tone of pigmentation to them? In the UK, well I never  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 11, 2020, 16:21:11
I think it probably has more to do with people not liking someone who might speak differently to them or (shock horror) have a different tone of pigmentation to them? In the UK, well I never  :hmmm:

Not putting words in anyone's mouth on here, but from those who I know who voted leave due to the immigration issue, which rather missed the points that a) it makes sod all difference to immigration from the Asian subcontinent and will actually likely lead to an increase and b) on the whole they all tend to have eastern European friends who would be most seriously affected seemed to pass them by!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, December 11, 2020, 16:24:51
Not putting words in anyone's mouth on here, but from those who I know who voted leave due to the immigration issue, which rather missed the points that a) it makes sod all difference to immigration from the Asian subcontinent and will actually likely lead to an increase and b) on the whole they all tend to have eastern European friends who would be most seriously affected seemed to pass them by!

Indeed, odd that isn't it? :) No doubt I'll get shouted down for using UNHCR figures (and subsequently have an immigration case lawyer friend, who has to turn down quite a lot of applications every year (you won't read that in the Mail/Express)) as not being 'real figures'. I had that from some Johnny Farageface on AssBook several years ago. Fucking idiots.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 11, 2020, 16:57:53
The EU have given Canda and other countries the access to their single market that we are after, we are not looking for anything more than they have given other third countries.

We've covered this already.  It's precisely because the UK is not small & insignificant - and also right next door - that the EU cannot afford to give us free access to their market without getting level playing field commitments from us.  In short, if Canada went rogue & started under-cutting EU producers, the EU would grumble a bit, but they would get by.  But if the UK did the same thing and started under-cutting - and let's be honest, the days of 'my word is my bond' are well & truly over with these fuckers in charge - that's an existential threat to the free market.  We're too big a deal for the EU to be able to be light touch.  They have to insist on a robust level playing commitment - and much more so than if we were smaller & further away.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, December 11, 2020, 16:59:50
they have also got to make it unpalatable to dissuade other member states that may be stupud enough to think of leaving


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 11, 2020, 17:04:59
It all comes down to a choice.  You sacrifice a bit of sovereignty every time you make an agreement with another party.  Every time.  So we can be as sovereign as we like.  But the more ideologically pure we insist on being about it - and, for some reason, the current government is being *really* idealogical/dogmatic on this - the thinner the deals will be that you can make.  It's a choice.

Switzerland and Norway have both made meaningful agreements with the EU in exchange for market access.  The UK govt, at least for now, does not appear to want this.  Time will tell how long their resolve is going to last.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, December 11, 2020, 18:15:53
they have also got to make it unpalatable to dissuade other member states that may be stupud enough to think of leaving
Correct.

Not you, but some leavers like to pretend that making leaving "unpalatable" is some kind of punishment.

Many of the benefits of the EU (esp the SM) stem from a common regulatory framework spreading far and wide.

Members are of course free to leave and make their own choices outside the EU/SM but so far as the SM is concerned they will find that it is for EU members to grant access as they decide best for them on a case by case basis.

If leaving members could enjoy most of the benefits for only a gentle price, then there would be a temptation for other members to leave and retain the benefits cheaply.  The SM would gradually evaporate.  To the loss of its members - and indeed the rest of the world and especially Europe.

If all the member states of Europe wanted to do everything their own way without shared laws, there would end up being 100s of bilateral treaties meaning that trade with France, Germany, Greece, Spain, Poland, Romania etc would be governed by different agreements and laws and systems of enforcement.

The UK believes it can do better by not being a team player, at least for the continent of Europe.  Then fine.  If we were a remaining member, do you think if France or Germany chose to leave, we'd be encouraging this or making sure access to our shared SM was not bestowed on them as some gimmee?

I believe Russia and China and the ERG and even eventually the Trumpists would be pleased to see the disintegration of the EU.  I am hopeful a less divided West with a strong EU may emerge.  The UK needs to articulate a proper and more detailed vision.  It is a bit of a maverick at present.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, December 11, 2020, 18:31:43
I think we need to distinguish between member states and the populations of member states.

There’s no indication that, given a vote, other country’s citizens would also vote to leave.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 11, 2020, 18:55:28
I think there's plenty of indication that they wouldn't.  Columnists in the right wing press have been predicting the disintegration of the EU for years.  Once the UK voted out, it was meant to signal the beginning of several other exits.  And it just hasn't happened.  Instead, the rest of Europe is looking on, fascinated & bemused, with the popcorn out.  Not quite able to get their heads around what's going on here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, December 11, 2020, 18:57:40
I think there's plenty of indication that they wouldn't.  Columnists in the right wing press have been predicting the disintegration of the EU for years.  Once the UK voted out, it was meant to signal the beginning of several other exits.  And it just hasn't happened.  Instead, the rest of Europe is looking on, fascinated & bemused, with the popcorn out.  Not quite able to get their heads around what's going on here.
Even Le Pen's neo-fascist Front National (or whatever they're called these days) don't want to leave any more. They've looked at the shit show we've become and backed off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 11, 2020, 19:27:14
I think we need to distinguish between member states and the populations of member states.

There’s no indication that, given a vote, other country’s citizens would also vote to leave.

Others have noted that the biggest boost to the EU in the EU has been the shit show of us trying to leave, led to quite the swing in support in many of the previously wavering members.

Also polling shows in the majority of EU27 countries the support for the EU not bending to our mid life crisis is pretty strong as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mr Stevens on Saturday, December 12, 2020, 06:07:16
Let them eat fish.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, December 13, 2020, 19:17:50
Arron Banks, the man who bankrolled Farage (or at least acted as the laundry to pass on the Russian money to him) is boasting that "Brexit is not a process , it’s a change that will cause creative economic destruction"

Hands up everyone who voted for economic destruction, "creative" or otherwise? These people are just wreckers

https://twitter.com/Arron_banks/status/1337786245515251712


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, December 13, 2020, 19:45:28
Arron Banks, the man who bankrolled Farage (or at least acted as the laundry to pass on the Russian money to him) is boasting that "Brexit is not a process , it’s a change that will cause creative economic destruction"

Hands up everyone who voted for economic destruction, "creative" or otherwise? These people are just wreckers

https://twitter.com/Arron_banks/status/1337786245515251712

I'm sure to save face, many hardened Brexiteers would quite happily allow Farage or Banks (insert similar pillock) to defecate on their doorstep and say it was all for the cause.

On another note, I thought Banks and Farage were also setting up the conveniently named Patriotic Alliance?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, December 13, 2020, 19:47:55
I'm sure to save face, many hardened Brexiteers would quite happily allow Farage or Banks (insert similar pillock) to defecate on their doorstep and say it was all for the cause.

On another note, I thought Banks and Farage were also setting up the conveniently named Patriotic Alliance?
Their UKIP/Brexit Party 3.0 reboot seems to get rebranded every few weeks. It will emerge as something or other, primarily as a way of fleecing the gullible, like the Brexit Party with it's "pay to stand" policy that netted them millions


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, December 13, 2020, 20:03:30
Essentially then it'll be a BNP/EDL style Party but for bigoted toffs? Like UKIP but it'll pretend it's not aligned to the far-right, whilst spewing hatred to different folk and holding secret tea parties with Yaxley-Lennon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, December 13, 2020, 21:28:22
Essentially then it'll be a BNP/EDL style Party but for bigoted toffs? Like UKIP but it'll pretend it's not aligned to the far-right, whilst spewing hatred to different folk and holding secret tea parties with Yaxley-Lennon.
No, what used to be the Conservative Party has already taken that space


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, December 13, 2020, 21:58:31
No, what used to be the Conservative Party has already taken that space

Haha, yes my mistake and rightly corrected  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 14, 2020, 16:04:17
Progress??

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/14/brexit-trade-deal-possible-within-days-after-johnson-concession-says-eu


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 15, 2020, 17:41:41
Home Office have finally published their report on Group Based Child Sexual Exploitation (grooming gangs) and it shows that the majority of grooming gang offenders are white men under the age of 30, and that more broadly "Research on offender ethnicity is limited, and tends to rely on poor quality data. It is therefore difficult to draw conclusions about differences in ethnicity of offenders, but it is likely that no one community or culture is uniquely predisposed to offending". That's a little embarrassing for Yaxley Lennon and his gang of ToyTown Nazis. Don't expect any of them to back down mind, it's their major source of income.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/944206/Group-based_CSE_Paper.pdf


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 15, 2020, 18:04:59
Home Office have finally published their report on Group Based Child Sexual Exploitation (grooming gangs) and it shows that the majority of grooming gang offenders are white men under the age of 30, and that more broadly "Research on offender ethnicity is limited, and tends to rely on poor quality data. It is therefore difficult to draw conclusions about differences in ethnicity of offenders, but it is likely that no one community or culture is uniquely predisposed to offending". That's a little embarrassing for Yaxley Lennon and his gang of ToyTown Nazis. Don't expect any of them to back down mind, it's their major source of income.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/944206/Group-based_CSE_Paper.pdf

In the piece in the Guardian Priti Patel is quoted as saying “This paper demonstrates how difficult it has been to draw conclusions about the characteristics of offenders.”

The paper does draw conclusions. Just not ones her voters would like to read. As for the Waxy Lemon, there is a proliferation of far right supporters who have been convicted, along with at least 3 elected members of the Tory party in recent times, which Patel like all Tory MP's is extremely quiet about!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 16, 2020, 16:39:15
Twitter rumours of a Brexit deal being done. Fingers crossed. Then wait for the deluge of "Victory" bollocks as they try to spin a paper-thin deal with significant climbdowns as some kind of VE Day 2.0. It will be a cringefest


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Wednesday, December 16, 2020, 17:04:20
It will piss off Nige at least, every cloud and all that...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 16, 2020, 17:08:35
Twitter rumours of a Brexit deal being done. Fingers crossed. Then wait for the deluge of "Victory" bollocks as they try to spin a paper-thin deal with significant climbdowns as some kind of VE Day 2.0. It will be a cringefest

Luke McGee
@lukemcgee
EU sources now also calling claims of deal “utter BS” and saying they are a long way on quite a few issues including fish. Suggestions that those claiming it’s near are “smoking the wrong stuff”


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 16, 2020, 17:10:20
bugger


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 16, 2020, 17:17:13
bugger

Wider suggestion is that those doing the negotiations think a deal could be there...... but it hasn't been looked at by the politicians and fish fetishists yet.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 16, 2020, 17:22:36
the bloody fish. they won't let that go because it's 'taking back control' or some such bollocks


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, December 16, 2020, 17:29:51
Luke McGee
@lukemcgee
EU sources now also calling claims of deal “utter BS” and saying they are a long way on quite a few issues including fish. Suggestions that those claiming it’s near are “smoking the wrong stuff”
Damn. Suspect we will see quite a bit more of this back and forth over the next few days. The fish is an irrelevance IMO, just an excuse if it all collapses. If that's the only issue remaining govt won't hesitate to stitch the fishermen up, same as they have done with the farmers


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, December 16, 2020, 22:22:34
I think there’s been too much noise that an agreement has been made on the diverging standards to suggest that there won’t be a deal there - that’s surely the biggest stumbling block. The fish is just noise, and one side or another will cave on that eventually

There’ll be a lot of peacocking but I’m a lot more confident that we won’t be going kamikaze on January 1st


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 17, 2020, 08:34:28
I think there’s been too much noise that an agreement has been made on the diverging standards to suggest that there won’t be a deal there - that’s surely the biggest stumbling block. The fish is just noise, and one side or another will cave on that eventually

There’ll be a lot of peacocking but I’m a lot more confident that we won’t be going kamikaze on January 1st
We've already gone kamikaze. The question is the extent of it. Even if a deal can be secured now, it will be paper thin and cover just the essentials. Whether a deal is done or not, this is a cliff-edge, just a question of how steep. And despite Johnson's ridiculous "Get Brexit Done" and "Oven-ready deal" slogans, this isn't the end of it whether a deal is done or not. This is just the start of years of talks to properly establish what the future trading relationship is between the UK and the EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 17, 2020, 09:03:02
Jesus Wept. Remember when Tory MPs and the right wing media were laying into Marcus Rashford for saying kids should be fed?

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-for-the-first-time-in-its-history-unicef-will-help-feed-kids-in-the-uk-12163515


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Thursday, December 17, 2020, 09:11:40
Jesus Wept. Remember when Tory MPs and the right wing media were laying into Marcus Rashford for saying kids should be fed?

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-for-the-first-time-in-its-history-unicef-will-help-feed-kids-in-the-uk-12163515

Fucking hell.  This Govt should hang it's head in shame.  But it won't. It has no shame.

Summed up by Starmers question at PMQ's yesterday - "He asks why Britain is, "the 6th richest country in the world" with "one of the highest numbers of Covid deaths in Europe" and the "deepest recession" in Europe".  Johnson's repsonse - "we are the first to roll out vaccines", not really answering the question

The last few years really make you proud to be British don't they (for the avoidance of doubt for any special Teffer's that is sarcasm)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, December 17, 2020, 12:56:36
People will blame it on those bloody foreigners or the remainers Vs brexiters. The working classes turning on each other when their attention should be on the extortionately wealthy who are manipulating the masses and cashing in. Still, keep voting Tory, suckers....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Thursday, December 17, 2020, 13:01:36
People will blame it on those bloody foreigners or the remainers Vs brexiters. The working classes turning on each other when their attention should be on the extortionately wealthy who are manipulating the masses and cashing in. Still, keep voting Tory, suckers....

The question is - it is so blindingly obvious, so why the fuck don't people see it?  There is probably a PhD thesis in that question


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Thursday, December 17, 2020, 13:33:29
Here, here.

Shameful, it really is. It’s a sad reflection of the other political parties that the current lot romped home with such ease at the last election, and no doubt they will do so again and again.

Oh well, at least we are getting ‘Brexit done’, eh? Tory Britain, what a place.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 17, 2020, 13:34:06
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jacob-rees-mogg-unicef-ashamed_uk_5fdb40fbc5b6094c0fefbd40


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, December 17, 2020, 13:43:51
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jacob-rees-mogg-unicef-ashamed_uk_5fdb40fbc5b6094c0fefbd40

He really is the Christian Kostiuk of politics that fucking Victorian pencil.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, December 17, 2020, 13:49:01
People will blame it on those bloody foreigners or the remainers Vs brexiters. The working classes turning on each other when their attention should be on the extortionately wealthy who are manipulating the masses and cashing in. Still, keep voting Tory, suckers....
Absofuckinglutely.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 17, 2020, 17:24:27
That's the sort of stuff Rees-Mogg comes out in public.

Imagine the stuff he says (and thinks) in private.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 17, 2020, 19:21:43
That's the sort of stuff Rees-Mogg comes out in public.

Imagine the stuff he says (and thinks) in private.
With the extent to which  (far) right views have been normalised in the uk in the last 4 years I fear the difference is not hugely different.

As with Johnson and Farage he has quietly been promoted as a figure of mirth but his hate has not been diluted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 17, 2020, 19:42:41
With the extent to which  (far) right views have been normalised in the uk in the last 4 years I fear the difference is not hugely different.

As with Johnson and Farage he has quietly been promoted as a figure of mirth but his hate has not been diluted.
Have I Got News For You has got a lot to answer for


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, December 17, 2020, 22:06:10
He really is the Christian Kostiuk of politics that fucking Victorian pencil.

Fucking love that BO  :D

Kind regards,

Gareth ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, December 18, 2020, 12:40:12
Happy Christmas all

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1339525764560134145?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, December 18, 2020, 16:52:38
Brilliant stuff from JOE. Wish I had the time to piece together and sync footage like that.

Merry New Easter  :pint:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 22, 2020, 13:45:28
I see its only rather quietly being reported that a deal is close to being struck that will see British nationals travelling to Gibraltar from the UK having to go through passport control, while Spaniards will be able to enter freely, the agreement would also give Gibraltarians open access to Spain and the Schengen Area.

But fish and blue passports eh....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, December 22, 2020, 14:29:46
It's a logical follow on of Brexit.  UK out of the EU and the Customs Union forces Gibraltar to join the Schengen zone.

https://english.elpais.com/brexit/2020-12-22/gibraltar-to-have-border-checks-for-uk-arrivals-not-for-spain-if-deal-is-clinched.html

Gibraltar and NI will be less connected to the rest of the UK after Brexit, not more.  UK influence & sovereignty is being dismantled as a result of Brexit, and when the Brexit faithful wake up & notice it won't be pretty.

And Scotland...that's another story.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 22, 2020, 15:04:43
It's a logical follow on of Brexit.  UK out of the EU and the Customs Union forces Gibraltar to join the Schengen zone.

https://english.elpais.com/brexit/2020-12-22/gibraltar-to-have-border-checks-for-uk-arrivals-not-for-spain-if-deal-is-clinched.html

Gibraltar and NI will be less connected to the rest of the UK after Brexit, not more.  UK influence & sovereignty is being dismantled as a result of Brexit, and when the Brexit faithful wake up & notice it won't be pretty.

And Scotland...that's another story.

Someone pointed out the other day, as it stands Johnson has managed to negotiate the UK having a free trade area which is actually smaller than the UK, which you have to admit is quite some achievement!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 22, 2020, 15:12:14
Highways England confirmed Johnson even lied about the scale of the lorry block on Monday evening. There were over 900 lorries stuck on the M20, not the 147 Johnson claimed. It's such a stupid pointless lie, why even bother? Because he's just hardwired to lie about everything

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/highways-england-confirms-900-lorries-m20-monday-not-174-boris-johnson/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, December 22, 2020, 15:15:59
It's a logical follow on of Brexit.  UK out of the EU and the Customs Union forces Gibraltar to join the Schengen zone.

https://english.elpais.com/brexit/2020-12-22/gibraltar-to-have-border-checks-for-uk-arrivals-not-for-spain-if-deal-is-clinched.html

Gibraltar and NI will be less connected to the rest of the UK after Brexit, not more.  UK influence & sovereignty is being dismantled as a result of Brexit, and when the Brexit faithful wake up & notice it won't be pretty.

And Scotland...that's another story.
Hands up everyone who voted to give Gibraltar to Spain?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Hunk on Wednesday, December 23, 2020, 23:52:50
Deal looking more likely than not, apparently

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55422729


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 07:06:38
Why are the news outlets so intrigued by pizza being delivered when there’s a late night meeting?

And why do those bozos outside No. 10 shout out inane questions when the PM or some other liar comes out the front door. ‘Is the economy collapsing, Prime Minister?’


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BoA Vagabond on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 10:10:26
The pantomime conveniently ending on Christmas eve? What a surprise.
Awaiting Boris the saviour to come down from on high with an amazing deal where Europe caved and we gloriously prevailed.

Happy and safe holidays all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 10:25:02
Why are the news outlets so intrigued by pizza being delivered when there’s a late night meeting?

And why do those bozos outside No. 10 shout out inane questions when the PM or some other liar comes out the front door. ‘Is the economy collapsing, Prime Minister?’

Yes!! Very much this. Do they genuinely think they are actually going to respond to their stupid questions??


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 10:36:28
Bloody hope this deal is a free trade deal that isn't too much more shit than our current one.

That would be a massive result.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 10:38:04
Awaiting Boris the saviour

He's more Judas betraying the UK for thirty pieces of Cod.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 10:39:11
Why are the news outlets so intrigued by pizza being delivered when there’s a late night meeting?

And why do those bozos outside No. 10 shout out inane questions when the PM or some other liar comes out the front door. ‘Is the economy collapsing, Prime Minister?’

Because that's what's generally accepted as journalism nowadays. I blame the public for buying the shite they print.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 10:43:23
Thank goodness, we might finally hear the end of this fishing shite


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 10:55:51
Genuinely fascinated now to see what's in the deal.  Only now, finally, will there be able to be a sober, rational, factual analysis of what has been gained vs what has been lost.  The noises coming out seem to indicating that changes on tariffs/rules of origin are less damaging than they could have been.  So that's something.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 11:37:49
At least Farage is spitting feathers.  I'll take that as a small win.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 11:40:24
At least Farage is spitting feathers.  I'll take that as a small win.

Is he, all I saw was "the war is over"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 11:57:45
https://mobile.twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1341823543143768064


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 12:10:22
I doubt he's spitting feathers regardless of what he says. I reckon he could not care less in reality. He's just playing a caricature that's helping to make him rather wealthy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 13:17:43
Genuinely fascinated now to see what's in the deal.  Only now, finally, will there be able to be a sober, rational, factual analysis of what has been gained vs what has been lost.
I wouldn't hold your breath. It will be personality-led triumphalism and soap opera, certainly on the two main TV channels thanks to the utterly fatuous Kuenssberg and Peston. Should both be presenting the weather on the smallest regional news programme their respective stations broadcast. In a shit Christmas jumper.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 13:24:35
Talking more about the forensic analysis that can now take place, and will take place, over the coming months & years.  Not so much about soundbites from media political correspondents over the next few days.  If the longer term analysis concludes that we have given up too much to achieve more sovereignty, we will start drifting back towards the EU anyway.  And that's my best guess, if I'm honest.  In or out, we'll always be in the EU's orbit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 13:33:01
Talking more about the forensic analysis that can now take place, and will take place, over the coming months & years.  Not so much about soundbites from media political correspondents over the next few days. 
Indeed, anything said over the next few days is essentially worthless, by all accounts the agreement is over 2000 pages long, that's nearly twice as long as Lord of the Rings. No way that can be fully analysed and understood in a few days. Which makes the idea that parliament can pass it in a day a travesty of the concept of sensible parliamentary scrutiny of the deal. Fortunately it's unlikely to make much difference as the govt won't stick to it anyway.

If the longer term analysis concludes that we have given up too much to achieve more sovereignty, we will start drifting back towards the EU anyway.  And that's my best guess, if I'm honest.  In or out, we'll always be in the EU's orbit.
Medium-long tem I think you're right, but just with much less say, or even no say, as to how the policies that will affect our most important trading relationship are formulated. "Taking back control".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 15:03:43
Deal done!

:popcorn:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 15:39:12
Deal done!

:popcorn:

Think almost everyone will agree that a deal is preferable to having no deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 16:05:04
Think almost everyone will agree that a deal is preferable to having no deal.
Indeed, apart from Farage and some of the ERG loons


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 16:30:30
Ugh, finally. Brexit is a shit idea, this deal won’t be as good as the one we had before, there will be plenty more arguing in the future - but at least there’s something and the complete jump off a cliff of no deal has been avoided


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 16:39:12
Hmm, I put that before seeing that services - the most valuable part of our economy - aren’t covered. But silly, that


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 16:56:04
I don't have the time nor inclination to compare the two, but this looks at a glance very similar to May's deal which Johnson considered so dreadful it warranted resigning for?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 17:09:02
I don't have the time nor inclination to compare the two, but this looks at a glance very similar to May's deal which Johnson considered so dreadful it warranted resigning for?
Well of course it is! Much of the 'agreement' was agreed a long time ago.

The last 12 months have been about some of the sticking points or bits that were deemed unacceptable (or probably more truthfully, we able to be modified) in 'May's deal'.

I don't know whether the deal is good, bad or indifferent. But, I hope we can all just move on and make the best of it.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 17:22:38
Quote
I don't know whether the deal is good, bad or indifferent. But, I hope we can all just move on and make the best of it.
I have my doubts, the Scots will be most vocal but by no means alone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 24, 2020, 18:22:32
If making the best of a bad job is what this deal amounts to, it will not be an end point.  Just a line in the sand from which something better, over time, will emerge.  Johnson's tone today was one of relief.  'Thank God it's over now.'  For him, maybe.  But for everyone else, it's more likely the beginning of a process.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, December 25, 2020, 09:18:37
Merry Christmas to you all. Santa Boris has delivered. Why, even Mr. Champagne socialist, ruddycheeks Starmer is sooooo happy he’s going to whip his disciples, shepherd them into the lobby to vote this deal through, such a wise man. Offering homage to the newborn king Boris.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 25, 2020, 13:06:18
And you, you brexity old bastard.  Happy Christmas!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, December 25, 2020, 17:31:23
And you, you brexity old bastard.  Happy Christmas!

Thank you.  Positively dripping with sincerity I’m sure.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 25, 2020, 17:44:08
It was.  We're all Swindon, regardless of everything else.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, December 25, 2020, 23:12:14
It was.  We're all Swindon, regardless of everything else.

In that case I’m honoured. It’s done and dusted. We as a country have a new opportunity and of course new challenges. The shackles of the yolk have been broken. Theoretically we are only now shackled by our own self doubt. Of course the eu is an important market, it will remain so for many years, however, so is the 5th largest economy in the world. I personally never doubted there would be a deal. Common sense dictated that would be the case. It could take a decade to settle down, maybe less to unpick 40 years of the Common market-EEC-EU. #loveeuropehatetheeu. Whether other countries decide to follow suit is open to conjecture and it will be very interesting to see how the EU reinvent itself to avoid anyone else deciding to follow the U.K.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Saturday, December 26, 2020, 06:43:00
In that case I’m honoured. It’s done and dusted. We as a country have a new opportunity and of course new challenges. The shackles of the yolk have been broken. Theoretically we are only now shackled by our own self doubt. Of course the eu is an important market, it will remain so for many years, however, so is the 5th largest economy in the world. I personally never doubted there would be a deal. Common sense dictated that would be the case. It could take a decade to settle down, maybe less to unpick 40 years of the Common market-EEC-EU. #loveeuropehatetheeu. Whether other countries decide to follow suit is open to conjecture and it will be very interesting to see how the EU reinvent itself to avoid anyone else deciding to follow the U.K.
I honestly believe that we were at a fork in the road. Both ways were equally as bad for different reasons. We chose the road that I didn't think was the right one, but we're stuck with it. No point crying over spilled milk, we just have to move forward. We'll adapt, because we have to, but noone will know for sure if it was the right or wrong decision.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, December 26, 2020, 11:14:10
I honestly believe that we were at a fork in the road. Both ways were equally as bad for different reasons. We chose the road that I didn't think was the right one, but we're stuck with it. No point crying over spilled milk, we just have to move forward. We'll adapt, because we have to, but noone will know for sure if it was the right or wrong decision.

When we joined the world and indeed our country was in a vastly different position than it is now. What we have just left took circa 50 years and a number of treaties to become. Pointing the finger at various figures and organisations over the years won’t achieve anything. IMHO the unelected bureaucrats took their finger off the pulse of deep feelings of resentment building up, not just in the U.K. Merkel could have thrown Cameron a bone but she and the other main players brushed him aside, dismissed him and the U.K. as a minor irritant. 4 1/2 years later here we are. Give it 50 years and see where we and indeed the whole world is. Of course there will be challenges but I firmly believe we as a can do country can rise to that challenge and make a good fist of it.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, December 26, 2020, 12:02:17
I'll never vote Tory again after this
betrayal of Britain for a bit more power and a bit more cash for those in a position to make of back of brexit

opposition parties or spoiled papers from now on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, December 26, 2020, 12:59:32
When we joined the world and indeed our country was in a vastly different position than it is now. What we have just left took circa 50 years and a number of treaties to become. Pointing the finger at various figures and organisations over the years won’t achieve anything. IMHO the unelected bureaucrats took their finger off the pulse of deep feelings of resentment building up, not just in the U.K. Merkel could have thrown Cameron a bone but she and the other main players brushed him aside, dismissed him and the U.K. as a minor irritant. 4 1/2 years later here we are. Give it 50 years and see where we and indeed the whole world is. Of course there will be challenges but I firmly believe we as a can do country can rise to that challenge and make a good fist of it.

Strongly suspect that events may move a little faster than this.  There is a very real chance now - although no one can say for certain - that the UK will not even exist in 10 or 15 yrs from now.  And if it does , I'd be fairly sure that it's going to look quite different to the way it does now.  Maybe with a more federal set up?

It's been popular among some supporters of Brexit to predict the eventual demise of the EU; with Brexit being the first of a number of exits.  But I see no evidence of that, at least for now.  The existential threat to the UK's integrity is far more real, I think.  Very much doubt we've reached the end point.  But it is about to get interesting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, December 29, 2020, 16:59:30
I know it's from historical documentation, hopefully the important bits of the brexit deal don't refer to their equivalent of Netscape

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55475433


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, December 29, 2020, 18:40:05
Strongly suspect that events may move a little faster than this.  There is a very real chance now - although no one can say for certain - that the UK will not even exist in 10 or 15 yrs from now.  And if it does , I'd be fairly sure that it's going to look quite different to the way it does now.  Maybe with a more federal set up?

It's been popular among some supporters of Brexit to predict the eventual demise of the EU; with Brexit being the first of a number of exits.  But I see no evidence of that, at least for now.  The existential threat to the UK's integrity is far more real, I think.  Very much doubt we've reached the end point.  But it is about to get interesting.

50 years still takes 50 years. It is the events both internally and externally that will shape those 50 years. What I was getting at was it took 50 years to be assimilated into the EU as it is now and as far as we allowed ourselves to get. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to give it another 50 years to untangle the past 50 and establish where U.K. PLC is going or how it looks. Regarding the breakup of the EU? I’m not sure it will break up, what I am sure is that the fully committed will attempt to tighten the rules and regs to stop any other country from having the audacity to leave. I am sure that the EU itself will have to change its outlook. In one way the biggest change will be tax and spending as one not 27. As has been mentioned by many economic giants, until the EU has complete control over all nations tax and spending affairs the € is in danger of collapsing. You cannot have a ‘sovereign’ currency not underpinned by a common tax and spending regime. The EU is not a sovereign country, it is a bureaucracy. By staying in it it was only a matter of time before we would have been forced to join the €. Then as a major contributor and economic player been forced to hand over lock stock and barrel (as the others would have to) our complete tax affairs to Brussels and the ECB, something I could never agree too. Anyway, it’s done and dusted, the EU member states appear to have given the deal their blessing, the HOC look like agreeing too. So onwards and upwards.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BoA Vagabond on Wednesday, December 30, 2020, 19:40:49
Glad we took back control today by having just a few hours for elected MP's to vote on, arguably, the most important legislation for 50 years. There was approximately 4 minutes between the result of the second reading and the start of voting on the third. I know the numbers in favour suggest that a delay was pointless, but I remember Tories moaning last summer about elements of the withdrawal bill that they hadn't read and subsequently didn't agree with. Daft to repeat, potentially, the same mistake again.
Glad there is a deal and I hope we prosper. Just wishing that parliament gets to do it's job properly in future. Surely that was one of the main reasons for leaving.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 09:25:26
Still winning https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-gas-electricity-supply-uk-fish-stocks-b1780376.html


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 10:02:02
Quote
Still winning https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-gas-electricity-supply-uk-fish-stocks-b1780376.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-gas-electricity-supply-uk-fish-stocks-b1780376.html)
we need fish more than they need to give us power

no wait, that's not it. something like that


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 12:27:23
The % of fishing in the scheme of things is minute - £60m per year they’re arguing about.

Just cough it up. It’s a pittance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 13:04:48
we need fish more than they need to give us power

no wait, that's not it. something like that
Johnson and Gove have that covered, they're investing billions in a new fish-powered National Grid that one of Matt Hancock's horseracing chums has just converted his pest control company to creating (current assets £100)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 18:10:25
This makes me incredibly angry.  And very sad.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/31/stanley-johnson-confirms-application-for-french-passport-on-eve-of-brexit

There seems to be very little discussion of the rights we are all (most of us) about to lose.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 19:04:43
let's not forget Farage kids will have German passports, and he has a German wife.

makes sense for visiting family. But let's not pretend we are better off when traveling shall we


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, January 1, 2021, 12:06:58
This makes me incredibly angry.  And very sad.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/31/stanley-johnson-confirms-application-for-french-passport-on-eve-of-brexit

There seems to be very little discussion of the rights we are all (most of us) about to lose.
Not saying I like him but I have no problem with Stanley Johnson applying for French nationality.  He's 1/4 French by blood and even 1/2 French if you take his mother's place of birth into account. 

He is of course luckier than most of the 48% who joined him in voting Remain who have had their EU citizenship taken away by his odious child. 

The thought that Boris might one day acquire EU citizenship if his father became a French national would be repugnant.  He could be told to wait till Turkey joined the EU as he predicted!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, January 1, 2021, 12:22:37
I'm 1/4 Irish  I could get an Irish passport, but it would be of no benefit to the kids as they can't qualify as I wasn't a citizen at their birth 😢

fair enough really, I've not even been to Ireland.

O'Batch.

I've got a German grandmother, but their criteria is even more stringent

so, and rather aptly, no heir batch..
----
Johnson is doing it out of convenience for himself, nothing more. he did at least vote  remain though and I'd do the same is their was any point


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, January 4, 2021, 13:35:38
Buyers Remorse...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eq08My1XIAExCJg?format=jpg&name=900x900)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eq08My9XEAAP-5L?format=jpg&name=900x900)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, January 4, 2021, 13:55:19
Surely he knew what he was voting for?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Monday, January 4, 2021, 13:59:01
I'm 1/4 Irish  I could get an Irish passport, but it would be of no benefit to the kids as they can't qualify as I wasn't a citizen at their birth 😢

fair enough really, I've not even been to Ireland.

O'Batch.


My great grandmother was Irish (so does that make me 1/8 Irish?). Would I fall into the same category as your kids?
My 0.2% Viking doesn't help me either  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, January 4, 2021, 14:01:49
You have to have an Irish grandparent (at least) to qualify for Irish citizenship.

One thing I did discover when I checked - if one of your parents was born anywhere in Ireland (including the North) then you are automatically an Irish citizen by birth.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Monday, January 4, 2021, 14:04:22
Buyers Remorse...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eq08My1XIAExCJg?format=jpg&name=900x900)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eq08My9XEAAP-5L?format=jpg&name=900x900)

That's only going to be a temporary thing, won't be any different to signing ROW players in due course.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, January 4, 2021, 14:06:49
Surely he knew what he was voting for?

Course he did, just like this guy. https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/people/whitby-fisherman-says-crews-will-be-worse-2021-they-left-eu-3080831

On the player front I cannot imagine it will make a huge difference at our level (albeit buggering up the occasional punt), but I can imagine its going to fuck up a lot of those at the middle/bottom of the Prem and Championship who like to buy non international players from the EU.

You have to have an Irish grandparent (at least) to qualify for Irish citizenship.

One thing I did discover when I checked - if one of your parents was born anywhere in Ireland (including the North) then you are automatically an Irish citizen by birth.

Been through it all, my ancestors never leaving Berkshire/Wiltshire/Oxfordshire have really let me down.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, January 4, 2021, 14:10:57
That's only going to be a temporary thing, won't be any different to signing ROW players in due course.

Its not different to signing ROW players now, they are going to need a work permit which is where Sam has been falling over. The criteria to sign players is based on a points system which considers the number of senior and youth international appearances, club appearances as well as the quality of the selling club, its league position and the league itself.The only change is EU is now ROW, it will also cut off the much loved route of our South American friends of discovering a little know Italian grandparent.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 4, 2021, 14:19:35
And several African players too. Although many of them tend to stay in several Eastern Bloc nations.

Always find that a strange sacrifice. I know they are sold the idea of moving on to a bigger European club bug considering a good chunk of those types of clubs have issues with racism, it is the last type of club I'd want to go to as an African (or anyone not white).

Then again, this country has enough issues with racism and increasing verbal stances. Doesn't reflect a whole club, granted but one of the benefits of not having fans (or too many fans) at present is our own doesn't have to put up with the Tommy Robinson chanting twats.

I'll put up with "Gerrrr iiiiiiiiiii faaaaarrrrrraaarrrddd" all day long if racism was eradicated from all sport - no in fact altogether.

I'd even put up with Rockin' Robin too. That too much?  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, January 5, 2021, 20:49:19
Martin Lewis:


Congrats to the govt on its new free GLOBAL health insurance card (GHIC), which replaces the EUROPEAN (EHIC) one.

The EHIC covered the EU 27 countries plus Norway, Iceland, Switzerland & Liech'stein

The improved GHIC covers... well only the EU27. 

#Oops #misnamed #SayWhat?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, January 5, 2021, 22:49:10
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eq-yZ0hXIAAtdeK?format=jpg&name=small)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eq-ycdtXAAE_RZU?format=jpg&name=small)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 6, 2021, 12:12:24
He really is an arse...

https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1346774245402144776?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 6, 2021, 19:28:28
Move along the bus, nothing to see here....

https://bylinetimes.com/2021/01/06/new-bbc-chairman-richard-sharp-donated-more-than-400000-to-conservative-party/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, January 6, 2021, 19:34:36
Move along the bus, nothing to see here....

https://bylinetimes.com/2021/01/06/new-bbc-chairman-richard-sharp-donated-more-than-400000-to-conservative-party/

This would (and should) usually be a scandal.

But now it's just the norm.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 6, 2021, 19:53:11
outgoing president numb nuts seems to have insighted a riot across the pond.

Pence refused to get involved in overturning the college vote and it's kicking off as senate and the house are forced to recess.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/live-updates-pence-has-power-to-block-certification-trump-says

surprisingly it looks like the Dems could take the senate today too


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Formerly Drummer Boy on Wednesday, January 6, 2021, 22:32:41
Looks like the Village People have arrived to protest against Biden's win...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B3XgTJSB5qU8FMJCSd1MAjkLneoexR9U/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B3XgTJSB5qU8FMJCSd1MAjkLneoexR9U/view?usp=sharing)

Let's do this.... 5-6-7-8 YYYYYYYYYYYMCA!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, January 11, 2021, 12:28:59
But ... but ... but wasn't it all supposed to be all about the fish? Don't tell John Redwood, he'll be furious

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-scotland-fishing-exclusive/exclusive-its-a-catastrophe-scottish-fishermen-halt-exports-due-to-brexit-red-tape-idUKKBN29D0UB?edition-redirect=uk

The City will be pleased as well

https://www.ft.com/content/a434b756-afe0-454d-9d70-ef2d42ea8d55


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, January 11, 2021, 14:47:32
Not covid or Brexit related for once...

The government's answer to remedying the problem of flammable cladding. Have the landlords pay for it, right? After all they own the buildings, profit from them, have the capital, and were responsible for the problem in the first place.

Nope.

The government expect tenants to pay for it by taking out loans.

And they will still get voted back in again.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, January 11, 2021, 15:26:11
Not covid or Brexit related for once...

The government's answer to remedying the problem of flammable cladding. Have the landlords pay for it, right? After all they own the buildings, profit from them, have the capital, and were responsible for the problem in the first place.

Nope.

The government expect tenants to pay for it by taking out loans.

And they will still get voted back in again.



I don't disagree with the sentiment, however, just a small point of order.

In terms of the buildings so affected on the whole the landlords will not be responsible for the problem in the first place in that such buildings are very very rarely owned once complete by those who built them, on the whole they tend to be sold to investment companies (often pension companies) who then become landlords, off plan or at least before or at final completion.

Therein lies the problem, who is responsible, the person who built it, the person who owns it now, the person who leases a flat in it now, the person who signed the fire regs off, the government who are responsible for the building regs, there are a plethora of potentials and ultimately in the background are the insurance industry who I imagine are lobbying the hardest as they are going to get clobbered whoever end up being responsible.

Hence why at this stage the government are taking the easy option..... 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Monday, January 11, 2021, 16:55:26
I don't think that saying let's just clobber the current landlords is the correct approach.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 09:17:48
Someone is doing very well out of this....

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ErhNFSkXYAEc9NW?format=jpg&name=medium)

That someone is Chartwells UK the company that has been awarded the contract to supply the children's food parcels, its part of Compass Group, apparently they have donted quite a lot of cash to a political party, can you guess which one...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 10:17:21
With regard to cladding costs, the one thing I am sure about is that having lived in rented or tied housing all my adult life until now, external repair and upkeep has never been the responsibility of the tenant.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 10:28:14
Someone is doing very well out of this....

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ErhNFSkXYAEc9NW?format=jpg&name=medium)

That someone is Chartwells UK the company that has been awarded the contract to supply the children's food parcels, its part of Compass Group, apparently they have donted quite a lot of cash to a political party, can you guess which one...
And it's not a one-off error either, this is systemic by Chartwells

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/catering-firm-slammed-charging-11-3982629


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Anteater on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 10:29:18
Someone is doing very well out of this....

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ErhNFSkXYAEc9NW?format=jpg&name=medium)

That someone is Chartwells UK the company that has been awarded the contract to supply the children's food parcels, its part of Compass Group, apparently they have donted quite a lot of cash to a political party, can you guess which one...

Another absolute disgrace !


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 10:55:29
With regard to cladding costs, the one thing I am sure about is that having lived in rented or tied housing all my adult life until now, external repair and upkeep has never been the responsibility of the tenant.

Repair of the building and common parts will usually fall under the service charge under a long lease.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 11:00:34
Someone is doing very well out of this....

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ErhNFSkXYAEc9NW?format=jpg&name=medium)

That someone is Chartwells UK the company that has been awarded the contract to supply the children's food parcels, its part of Compass Group, apparently they have donted quite a lot of cash to a political party, can you guess which one...

Can you imagine if you sent your spouse or partner out with £30 to pick up a few bits and she came back with that monstrosity on the right? What's in that bag at the bottom next to the spuds?

All joking aside there is something seriously wrong if they is actually what the company provided, surely someone somewhere must have said 'we can't possibly send this out can we'?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 11:19:39
OK, we know costs (staff, distribution) will be bigger for a private company, but that looks pathetic.

I'd like to see the breakdown on where that £30 went.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 12:49:50
OK, we know costs (staff, distribution) will be bigger for a private company, but that looks pathetic.

I'd like to see the breakdown on where that £30 went.

On the flipside, buying in bulk for such a large contract will provide the company with huge buying power and thus cheaper prices.

Someone has priced the stuff on Asda and its c.£5 at straight retail prices.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 13:35:24
That is disgusting. I feel like I've become numb to a lot of the nonsense the current government spews out week after week but this really pissed me off. My weekly shop is usually £20-£25 and is significantly better than that.

Not surprising to read it's another contract handed to a private company ran by a friend-of-a-tory.

Honestly I'm so sick of how this government is never held to account to anything.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 13:44:29
And they'll still get voted back in again.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 14:20:42
Some of the photos I've seen of these 'packages' are disgraceful. That's if they're real, of course, and I suspect most are.

One had 5 bottles of water (among a few other things).

Why include bottled water when drinking water literally comes out of the fucking tap in Britain? It looks like gross incompetence on top of the arseholery. (No surprise there).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 14:21:14
And they will still get voted in again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 14:24:14
Can you imagine if you sent your spouse or partner out with £30 to pick up a few bits and she came back with that monstrosity on the right? What's in that bag at the bottom next to the spuds?

All joking aside there is something seriously wrong if they is actually what the company provided, surely someone somewhere must have said 'we can't possibly send this out can we'?

Looks like penne Bobby


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 15:53:57
Some of the photos I've seen of these 'packages' are disgraceful. That's if they're real, of course, and I suspect most are.

One had 5 bottles of water (among a few other things).

Why include bottled water when drinking water literally comes out of the fucking tap in Britain? It looks like gross incompetence on top of the arseholery. (No surprise there).

The most depressing this is that in some cases they seem to have employed someone to cut a carrot in half so each box only includes half a carrot (same with tomato's and peppers), that's taking the bottom line to extremes - I imagine the poor sod cutting the veg is also on zero hours etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 16:01:56
A rough price check guess then -

Beans £0.60
Loaf £1.00
Cheese slices £0.80
3 apples £1.20
2 carrots £0.20
2 malt loaf snacks £0.40
2 bananas £0.30
2 spuds £0.40
3 fruit tube thingies £1.00
1 tomato £0.20
penne pasta £1.20

That's around £7.30


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 16:05:59
A rough price check guess then -

Beans £0.60
Loaf £1.00
Cheese slices £0.80
3 apples £1.20
2 carrots £0.20
2 malt loaf snacks £0.40
2 bananas £0.30
2 spuds £0.40
3 fruit tube thingies £1.00
1 tomato £0.20
penne pasta £1.20

That's around £7.30
The Mum who received this absolute fucking insult price checked it with her local ASDA. It came out at £5.22. That's retail price, so allowing for bulk discounts and wholesale prices, you can probably reckon this cost Chartwells about 3 quid tops. The other 27 quid will have gone to help fund the CEO's £4.7m pay, shareholder dividends and the donations to the Tory party


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 16:13:57
The Mum who received this absolute fucking insult price checked it with her local ASDA. It came out at £5.22. That's retail price, so allowing for bulk discounts and wholesale prices, you can probably reckon this cost Chartwells about 3 quid tops. The other 27 quid will have gone to help fund the CEO's £4.7m pay, shareholder dividends and the donations to the Tory party

Note (as I made the same error earlier) the donations to the Tory Party are from the CEO directly so they will be coming out of the £4.7m, so that's alright then.

I see its not just Chartwells as those provided by others have also been shown and they are equally as shite, we really have become a second world country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 16:17:56
And they will still get voted in again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 16:22:10
What actually are these £30 food parcels? Are they free donations or are people paying for them (that includes taxpayer)? I haven't read up on this


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 16:39:35
What actually are these £30 food parcels? Are they free donations or are people paying for them (that includes taxpayer)? I haven't read up on this

They are to feed kids provided by the state, previously parents got vouchers to the value of £30 to spend on food (could not be spent on booze, lottery tickets etc - despite what the Mail and Ben Bradley would like people to think), but Bradley and the right wing press posted/published all manner of unsubstantiated bollocks about drug dealers accepting the vouchers hence they were withdrawn and now we are here, with instead of getting £30 worth of food the kids are getting a fivers worth, we are a civilised country apparently.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Panda Paws on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 16:50:32
Absolutely grim.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 16:52:06
Yeah, that's pretty shite really. Thanks Horlock.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 19:08:37
Let's cut the foreign aid budget.  We need to look after our own.   :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BoA Vagabond on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 19:22:31
It's despicable but sadly not a surprise. I hope someone important is held accountable but I won't get my hopes up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ticker45 on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 19:36:00
Just for a little bit of balance, Marcus Rashfords Child Food Poverty website has Chartwell as one of its suppliers which does not excuse the lack of food shown one iota but the bread in the picture is dated “best by November”. Something not quite right?

https://i2.wp.com/order-order.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Chartwells-food-poverty-supporter-copy.jpg?resize=1200%2C675&ssl=1



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 22:52:10
I'm on my one but posted something on Twitter a couple or three weeks back about groceries spends. Asked people how much they thought I'd spent. There was enough for one person for about 10 days to 2 weeks (depending on how much of a greedy cunt you are) but should've done two people and possible a young child for about a week.

There were;
4 x Pork Steaks
8 x Chicken thighs
8 x Bacon Rashers
1kg Rice
500g Pasta
Medium Sliced Loaf
Biscuits
8 x Crisps
2 x tins of toms
1kg Chips
500g Cereal
3 x Bananas
10 x Oranges
300g Mushrooms
500g Butter
4pts Milk
40 Tea Bags

Came to £12.50

I will add I'm pretty skint but I won't plead poverty, of course I will shop thriftly (stingy cunt, call it what you like). Even when it was the ex & I we rarely went over £50 for a weeks shop. I understand larger families of course spending more but you can take advantage of bulk buys/multi buys that won't get wasted so much. Herein I think lies the issue. We generally (as a collective nation) buy way more than we actually consume. Hopefully the trend is happening and becoming common place that any food we don't eat, is sent to a food bank/given to homeless shelters. As long as it's ok. They bloody need it more than us.

We all like a good feed but gluttony in this country is disgusting. The waste it carries with it is the unfortunate friend.

Throwback.

These cunts need to give me their £30 per week per family contract. As was well debated at the time (but importantly genuine), I could get them pretty much enough for a week for about a third of the cost. I reckon for £30 I could get enough to cover a couple and a young kid for about 3weeks.

What a bunch of wankers.

#BambooNoShop (For Jayo :) )


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 08:53:53
Throwback.

These cunts need to give me their £30 per week per family contract. As was well debated at the time (but importantly genuine), I could get them pretty much enough for a week for about a third of the cost. I reckon for £30 I could get enough to cover a couple and a young kid for about 3weeks.

What a bunch of wankers.

#BambooNoShop (For Jayo :) )
You're assuming they actually give a shit about feeding kids. They don't. It's all about how much of that 30 quid they can claw off into their own pockets.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 09:00:13
You're assuming they actually give a shit about feeding kids. They don't. It's all about how much of that 30 quid they can claw off into their own pockets.

Somebody (cannot remember who) made a good point about when people complain about the government not doing a good job...

The government are doing a brilliant job of what they're actually there to do - make their mates billionaires and sell off what's left of the country, while blaming marginalised groups and hardworking minorities.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 09:30:52
A question that should be put to them; if this country is supposed to be so rich ,prosperous & bountiful, why do so many need food banks and free school meals?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 09:46:38
Quote from: 4D
What actually are these £30 food parcels? Are they free donations or are people paying for them (that includes taxpayer)? I haven't read up on this

I think it has been out to them several times, and ignored

at least, I've not seen an answer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 10:23:35
And they will still get voted in again.

All the fucking sensible dads who thought Corbyn was a bit too radical should be having a look at themselves in the mirror right now. All they've done is enable this shower of cunts. And now we've got an opposition leader in Starmer who has so far has been less effective than Marcus Rashford and Les Dennis. Shit state of affairs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 10:36:32
Hancock on TV this morning was another shocker. Vile cunts these Tories are.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 11:10:08
Hancock on TV this morning was another shocker. Vile cunts these Tories are.

Really awful, a simple "Yes, in hindsight I should have voted a different way, I'm glad we are doing it now" would have been appropriate & sufficient - instead of conducting himself in such a cocky manner


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 11:34:06
Working class and poor people voted for these arseholes. I just don't understand why.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 11:36:03
Working class and poor people voted for these arseholes. I just don't understand why.

Because 'but Corbyn'.

And the press or, more to the point, too many people believing the press.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 11:37:46
Because 'Corbyn's portrayal in the media'.
Corrected

EDIT: you beat me to it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 11:49:52
You only have to look on the Swindon advertiser comments on Facebook to see the fooled masses in full effect.
Yesterday some knuckle dragger told people that they "should be grateful" for the dismal food parcels being received. Currently of 67 responses to his comment. 58 of them endorsed his view.
It's literally working class folk turning on those in need of the parcel's. Nothing said about the fact that somebody is raking in public money from this scheme. Blinded fools.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 11:53:03
And Corbyn was accused of trying to start a class war. In reality, it was already in full flow - only the tories were winning it (with help from the media).

And I'm far from a Corbyn fan, I thought he was a bit of a tool, but that doesn't mean the tories and the press are any less a bunch of self-serving wankers.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 12:07:57
All the fucking sensible dads who thought Corbyn was a bit too radical should be having a look at themselves in the mirror right now. All they've done is enable this shower of cunts. And now we've got an opposition leader in Starmer who has so far has been less effective than Marcus Rashford and Les Dennis. Shit state of affairs.

Said it before and I'll say it again, the tories were voted in for Bexit, not much else


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 12:14:27
You only have to look on the Swindon advertiser comments on Facebook to see the fooled masses in full effect.
Yesterday some knuckle dragger told people that they "should be grateful" for the dismal food parcels being received. Currently of 67 responses to his comment. 58 of them endorsed his view.
It's literally working class folk turning on those in need of the parcel's. Nothing said about the fact that somebody is raking in public money from this scheme. Blinded fools.

How many people are one unexpected job loss away from needing help from the state, but if you have never had to put up with that you don't understand it.

Human beings are generally self centred wankers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 12:19:49
One thing I really struggle with is the attacks on the "liberal elite" by the Tories.  My God, if they are not elitist then fuck knows who is.

What/who is the liberal elite anyway?  And what do they want that has the tories demonising them?  Serious question.  I am not thick but I really struggle with this one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 12:24:29
One thing I really struggle with is the attacks on the "liberal elite" by the Tories.  My God, if they are not elitist then fuck knows who is.

What/who is the liberal elite anyway?  And what do they want that has the tories demonising them?  Serious question.  I am not thick but I really struggle with this one.
The Tories need an "other" class to focus hate on. Especially at the moment as they follow the Trump playbook on "culture wars" etc. At various times, foreigners, benefit claimants etc will also serve the same purpose. Makes a handy "look over there" excuse too to distract from the utter shambles of the COVID deathpile, the rampant corruption around the awarding of contracts and the annihilation of the economy. "I mean yeah, all that's bad, but there's a kid over there who got an extra KitKat in his food parcel. BURN HIM!!"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 12:27:47
They could always go back to the topic of fishing to distract from the real issues again. Or start putting fish in the lunchboxes


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 12:32:15
One thing I really struggle with is the attacks on the "liberal elite" by the Tories.  My God, if they are not elitist then fuck knows who is.

What/who is the liberal elite anyway?  And what do they want that has the tories demonising them?  Serious question.  I am not thick but I really struggle with this one.

Liberal elite seems to have become short hand for anyone who gives a shite about someone sho isn't themselves, see also woke....

FWIW though Corbyn was/is as much of a liberal elite as most Tories, not sure he has ever had a real job outside politics.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 12:32:48
They could always go back to the topic of fishing to distract from the real issues again. Or start putting fish in the lunchboxes

Its only lunch anyway https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/tory-mp-defends-free-school-meal-controversy-saying-its-only-lunch/13/01/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 12:34:56
How many people are one unexpected job loss away from needing help from the state, but if you have never had to put up with that you don't understand it.

Human beings are generally self centred wankers.

You ought to see some of the forums and groups out here.

Jam-packed full of arseholes looking down on other expats who have fallen on hard times. Yet, a lot of these same people are getting by month to month themselves and have little job security. (There's that, and the rampant racism and all-round ignorance).

Homo sapiens really are a horrid species at times.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 12:35:18
Jack Monroe, who has done a lot of campaigning around this, has just tweeted that the National Food Voucher Scheme that ran in the summer is coming back next week. Which will cut out the profiteering middlemen. And before the tiresome Tory Trolls kick in, no the vouchers can't be used to buy booze, fags, crack or prossies. They never could. That was just bollocks out out by people who hate the idea that the needy and vulnerable might actually get some sort of help. Or that some fucker might not be able to profiteer on the back of it.

https://twitter.com/BootstrapCook/status/1349304259301548033

Confirmed in BBC report
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-53053337

However, while I notice that Johnson and now even the walking embodiment of incompetence that is Williamson have scolded Chartwells over their blatant fraud in scamming the taxpayer out of 25 quid in every "hamper" they sent out, neither has suggested that Chartwells should be stripped of these contracts. Or better yet, prosecuted for fraud


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 12:50:39
Not that it matters to the emotion of the argument, but the chartwells contract wasn’t to spend £30 worth of food per child - they were contracted to provide a certain number of meals per child (no reference to cost)

More a point of pedantry than anything, the £25 profiteering isn’t technically true. The shameful rations the kids got, and the fact it was worse than they were previously entitled to, is though


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 13:12:42
Not that it matters to the emotion of the argument, but the chartwells contract wasn’t to spend £30 worth of food per child - they were contracted to provide a certain number of meals per child (no reference to cost)

More a point of pedantry than anything, the £25 profiteering isn’t technically true. The shameful rations the kids got, and the fact it was worse than they were previously entitled to, is though
It replaced a scheme where parents were given a £30 voucher to spend on food in supermarkets. It's reasonable to assume the budget was proportionate to that, unless you're suggesting that as well as private profiteering the govt have also used this as an excuse to slash the budget as well?

It's also worth noting that the "hampers" as Chartwells refer to them fall well below the standards set out in the DfE guidelines that school lunches are supposed to meet. Either way, they have not fulfilled the contracts they have been paid handsomely from taxpayers' money for and should be stripped of those contracts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 13:19:14
It's also worth noting that the "hampers" as Chartwells refer to them fall well below the standards set out in the DfE guidelines that school lunches are supposed to meet.

Starmer read the guidelines out at PMQs and they weren't far off - basically missing some milk and some ham. Even if they'd delivered to spec it would be a miserable thing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 14:49:33
They could always go back to the topic of fishing to distract from the real issues again. Or start putting fish in the lunchboxes

I don't think that would do them any favours. Many of the folk of Brixham for instance ain't happy post brexit when the majority wanted it as they thought they'd benefit and the reality is they won't.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 14:52:40
Starmer read the guidelines out at PMQs and they weren't far off - basically missing some milk and some ham. Even if they'd delivered to spec it would be a miserable thing.
In terms of items, maybe, but the nutritional value was well below the requirements. But yes as you say, either way it is utterly miserable, the govt's spec is miserly and Chartwells even skimped on that. What a terrible way for a rich 1st world country to treat families in need. A twitter user did a breakdown of the calorific value of Chartwell's "hamper" and it's well below a child's basic needs. And that's just calories, not even looking at essential vitamins and other nutrients

https://twitter.com/JoeStephenson96/status/1348934091459203075


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 14:53:46
Quote from: Arriba
I don't think that would do them any favours. Many of the folk of Brixham for instance ain't happy post brexit when the majority wanted it as they thought they'd benefit and the reality is they won't.


oh well.

(I don't like fish anyway, except cod in batter :) )


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 14:56:57

oh well.

(I don't like fish anyway, except cod in batter :) )

Me neither. prawns is all I'll eat from the sea. Love Brixham though so take a keen interest in the area/news etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 15:04:52
yeah, Brixham and fishing villages like that are lovely

I don't really want to see the industry die off. just don't have much sympathy if it does


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 15:10:16
It replaced a scheme where parents were given a £30 voucher to spend on food in supermarkets. It's reasonable to assume the budget was proportionate to that, unless you're suggesting that as well as private profiteering the govt have also used this as an excuse to slash the budget as well

Erm, yeah I think that’s exactly what I was saying


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 15:42:04
yeah, Brixham and fishing villages like that are lovely

I don't really want to see the industry die off. just don't have much sympathy if it does

Oh it will die off. Hence why there's fighting over fishing grounds in the first place. Humans have decimated the seas. Dwindling fish stocks due to overfishing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 15:48:58
Me neither. prawns is all I'll eat from the sea. Love Brixham though so take a keen interest in the area/news etc.
I've probably been overly politicised on the (anti) Brexit front.  Big business may be "inconvenienced" but it can afford to adapt and we can argue about the casualties.

But for the little guy and the small business, I think the travel restrictions and especially the trade restrictions will cause a loss of viable trade and quality of life  

"Local", in terms of fresh produce, just like the fish themselves, doesn't recognise national boundaries.

It's a lose:lose for neighbouring, local communities that there are now extra barriers to the trade of beautiful fresh fish and produce between us and Ireland and the Continent.  I think the little guys in Brixham and its continental equivalents have more in common than differences.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 17:22:34
Still lying.... https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1349401389659783173?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BoA Vagabond on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 17:31:52
Me neither. prawns is all I'll eat from the sea. Love Brixham though so take a keen interest in the area/news etc.
Used to live down that way. Great walk from Paignton front along the coast walk. Lunchtime in the pubs by the harbour before stumbling back. Add in cold winds with big waves and you have a real treat. Most of Torbay considered Brixham folk to be a bit odd. I thought they were fine but, as was often pointed out, I'm from Swindon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 18:37:43
Used to live down that way. Great walk from Paignton front along the coast walk. Lunchtime in the pubs by the harbour before stumbling back. Add in cold winds with big waves and you have a real treat. Most of Torbay considered Brixham folk to be a bit odd. I thought they were fine but, as was often pointed out, I'm from Swindon.

I plan to move to the area. As soon as the Mrs gives the green light I'm there. If nd the locals friendly and I've been there out of season plenty of times in their pubs etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Broadbents Tackle on Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 19:15:07
Something that I think everyone needs to read. I hope more attention can be drawn to this and the world can unite in condemnation.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/12/uighur-xinjiang-re-education-camp-china-gulbahar-haitiwaji


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 14, 2021, 10:09:13
Is hapless too kind?

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/fisheries-minister-didnt-read-brexit-bill-because-she-was-organising-the-local-nativity-trail/14/01/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Thursday, January 14, 2021, 12:54:36
Something that I think everyone needs to read. I hope more attention can be drawn to this and the world can unite in condemnation.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/12/uighur-xinjiang-re-education-camp-china-gulbahar-haitiwaji
thank you for sharing, that was an horrifically informative read


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, January 14, 2021, 13:06:12
Something that I think everyone needs to read. I hope more attention can be drawn to this and the world can unite in condemnation.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/12/uighur-xinjiang-re-education-camp-china-gulbahar-haitiwaji
While I agree with your sentiment, I think large parts of the world have united in condemnation of it. But that's the problem, that's pretty much all they've done.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, January 14, 2021, 14:31:41
please tell me this hasn't been dubbed

https://twitter.com/TobyonTV/status/1349707738583093248?s=09 (https://twitter.com/TobyonTV/status/1349707738583093248?s=09)

I've heard shit jokes, but even for Mogg this isn't the best timing to make one


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 14, 2021, 14:53:18
please tell me this hasn't been dubbed

https://twitter.com/TobyonTV/status/1349707738583093248?s=09 (https://twitter.com/TobyonTV/status/1349707738583093248?s=09)

I've heard shit jokes, but even for Mogg this isn't the best timing to make one

Its only on twitter as far as I can see so I cannot comment on its authenticity.

If it is real I strong suspect it isn't a joke and he really thinks that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, January 14, 2021, 19:15:23
I think listening to the speaker following it tells you what JR-M was saying was not dubbed.

Speaker follows: Well obviously, there's a lot of overwhelming evidence for that... *chuckling*

Could it ever be a spoof when concerning Walter the Softee?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, January 14, 2021, 22:07:27
Remember when concerns that Brexit would lead to the govt ripping up regulations to protect the environmental and workers' rights were dismissed as "Project Fear"?

https://www.ft.com/content/55588f86-a4f8-4cf3-aecb-38723b787569

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/09/pesticide-believed-kill-bees-authorised-use-england-eu-farmers


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, January 14, 2021, 22:30:43
Jesus. Govt are stepping in to prevent schools offering free school meals or vouchers over Feb half term. This is just deliberately malign now

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jan/14/schools-in-england-told-not-to-provide-free-school-meals-at-half-term


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, January 18, 2021, 11:20:30
Very good piece in The Economist outlining the deep links between the Tories (and the British Right generally) with Trumpism and the US far right, despite the bonfire of Tory MPs deleting tweets since the US Capitol riot

https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/01/14/trump-dont-think-i-know-him

Unpaywalled:
https://archive.fo/cEII1


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, January 18, 2021, 17:19:12
Jesus. Govt are stepping in to prevent schools offering free school meals or vouchers over Feb half term. This is just deliberately malign now

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jan/14/schools-in-england-told-not-to-provide-free-school-meals-at-half-term

#toryscum


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Tuesday, January 19, 2021, 07:28:52
Jesus. Govt are stepping in to prevent schools offering free school meals or vouchers over Feb half term. This is just deliberately malign now

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jan/14/schools-in-england-told-not-to-provide-free-school-meals-at-half-term
Left wind rag sensationalises story by not quoting second sentence.

(Totally apolitical but it says that instead of a they get b during 1/2 term)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, January 19, 2021, 10:29:32
Left wind rag sensationalises story by not quoting second sentence.

(Totally apolitical but it says that instead of a they get b during 1/2 term)
They're getting fuck all, the reporting is accurate. Councils have already spent the "winter grant" several times over, the govt airily waving their hands around saying "oh just use some of that other money we gave you" when they know damn well it's already been spent doesn't feed kids.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, January 19, 2021, 10:33:54
They're getting fuck all, the reporting is accurate. Councils have already spent the "winter grant" several times over, the govt airily waving their hands around saying "oh just use some of that other money we gave you" when they know damn well it's already been spent doesn't feed kids.

Just for the record schools have also not been given a lot of the money they were promised at the start of the first lockdown, they were told to 'spend what needs to be spent' to get open, but when they came to claim it it has not all been reimbursed!

Not sure I would call the Guardian a left wing rag, albeit I suppose it depends what ones starting point is?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 15:54:47
170bn worth of assets and 2500 jobs in the financial sector relocated to France

https://www.thelocal.fr/20210119/brexit-sent-2500-jobs-and-170-billion-assets-to-france-says-french-bank-chief

And hauliers refusing to transport goods to Britain due to complex rules and financial commitment required

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/20/absolute-carnage-eu-hauliers-reject-uk-jobs-over-brexit-rules

While fish are rotting on the docks and fishermen protesting in the streets of London

But, you know, "Project Fear"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 16:00:58
On a more personal annoyance, UPS are blaming the fact that my new mac which took 4 days to get from china to Donnington has taken 10 days and counting to get from Donnington to Chippenham, on Brexit.

Wankers.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 16:22:13
170bn worth of assets and 2500 jobs in the financial sector relocated to France

https://www.thelocal.fr/20210119/brexit-sent-2500-jobs-and-170-billion-assets-to-france-says-french-bank-chief

And hauliers refusing to transport goods to Britain due to complex rules and financial commitment required

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/20/absolute-carnage-eu-hauliers-reject-uk-jobs-over-brexit-rules

While fish are rotting on the docks and fishermen protesting in the streets of London

But, you know, "Project Fear"
Oh well, blue passports, eh Paul?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 16:34:52
On a more personal annoyance, UPS are blaming the fact that my new mac which took 4 days to get from china to Donnington has taken 10 days and counting to get from Donnington to Chippenham, on Brexit.

Wankers.



Didn't know PaulD worked for them  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 16:44:33
On a more personal annoyance, UPS are blaming the fact that my new mac which took 4 days to get from china to Donnington has taken 10 days and counting to get from Donnington to Chippenham, on Brexit.

Wankers.



Is donnington some sort of customs overflow for them?!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 17:26:44
Seems to have cleared its custom papers in Donnington.  Then sat there for a while.  Then gone to Tamworth.  Then sat there again.  Then been incorrectly sorted.  And now Im still waiting.  Lady Ive spoken to says they are completely snowed under.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 18:29:54
I managed to get a package from New Delhi to my doorstep in five days. I was most impressed. No customs bill (yet) either.

On the downside, my usual AliExpress bargains are no longer bargains, they're adding 20% VAT at checkout now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 18:31:40
I managed to get a package from New Delhi to my doorstep in five days. I was most impressed. No customs bill (yet) either.

On the downside, my usual AliExpress bargains are no longer bargains, they're adding 20% VAT at checkout now.
Ouch! Sunlit uplands, though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 19:46:43
My regular order of whiskas cat food from Amazon has been delayed, I believe brexit related. Its getting real


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 20:11:07
My regular order of whiskas cat food from Amazon has been delayed, I believe brexit related. Its getting real
Treat yourself and eat some normal food while you wait.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 21:49:09
Is donnington some sort of customs overflow for them?!

Donnington is one of the largest air freight hubs. Most international mail into and out of the UK will go via there.

DHL is one of the main carriers.

It's at EMA (East Midlands Airport) by the way. No googling, visited there a lot of times over a number of years previously.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 21:56:50
Donington Park is a great track. Ridden there a few times.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 22:13:23
Donington Park is a great track. Ridden there a few times.

Indeed, also spent a lot of time there several years ago. Unrelated to the above but a great track for both cars and bikes. Watched a lot of F3, BTCC and Superbikes there :)

I'm sure you would "hot-foot" it up the Fosse Way on occasion too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Leggett on Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 23:25:38
Donington is where EMA and the race track is. Donnington is near Newbury. BTCC-based pet peeve of mine :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, January 21, 2021, 00:30:04
Donington is where EMA and the race track is. Donnington is near Newbury. BTCC-based pet peeve of mine :D

There's a few Don...gton variants about. Knew The Donnington near Newbury, used to visit the "castle" when I lived that way. But yeah my mitsake and I should know better, as I do know both locations quite well.

Long day...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 22, 2021, 10:25:58
After the news that Nissan are committed to Sunderland, a lot of Brexiteers now claiming that BMW are going to take over the Honda site, any truth in that?


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, January 22, 2021, 10:32:01
it would make sense for bmw in that they have plants at Oxford and Swindon and could consolidate, but the moving costs should be high.

As for thruth in it, I think it was employee 'plant talk' but I have seen nothing in the media about it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, January 25, 2021, 11:10:00
You know Brexit has gone completely and utterly tits up when the hard Brexit supporting Ambrose Evans Pritchard writing in the hard Brexit supporting Telegraph is trying to blame Angela Merkel for it. "We spent years campaigning for Brexit, we lied to achieve it, we boosted the politicians who backed it, we smeared and bullied the ones who didn't, but now it's here and it's a disaster, it turns out it's all the fault of those bloody foreigners."

https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1353280477327716353


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 25, 2021, 18:27:16
With the government set to remove their boosted payment to Universal Credit, the nation is set to see some 6m people in the UK impacted by this measure. Whilst still in an ongoing pandemic it seems a strange move to remove at this time. Surely an extension for another year would make more sense.

For reflection the £6bn cost to be covered would total a 1p increase in Income Tax and 5p in Fuel Duty. I'd personally be more than happy to pay the miniscule rise in order to continue helping the most poor people in our country. With so much uncertainty in employment to come, even post-pandemic some might be wise to think their initial answer whilst possibly still in a job currently. We know a lot of "i'm alright Jack" is prevalent in much of the UK but I can't see how several people can be cock sure of that attitude in these uncertain times.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-9164323/Universal-Credit-need-know-20-monthly-boost-debate.html

Apologies that the following is the currant bun. It appears Sunak is trying to get around this with a one off payment...but hang on, wasn't it this government that barely trusted the great unwashed with paying £30 a week for food for kids, as they might spend it on junk. Yet here they are offering to pay £1k one off to largely many of those same people...Not certain of the detail (the Sun lacks here, shock) but it may also be an "advance" style payment that is repaid so I'm not sure that really helps anyone.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13831951/rishi-sunak-boost-universal-credit/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, January 25, 2021, 20:20:53
And you think UK politics is murky:

<see link below in another post>

Fair warning, people who like < 240 characters may not want to click and read - it's a bit lengthy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 25, 2021, 20:54:39
And you think UK politics is murky:

https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/documents/f078d848-67ab-4176-8193-a446ce62a64e/note/c1639997-dbff-4348-97e6-a9ee73a19ae0.

Fair warning, people who like < 240 characters may not want to click and read - it's a bit lengthy.

XML File Error keeps coming up for this one Rob.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, January 25, 2021, 21:06:02
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55801819

It was in here


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 25, 2021, 21:13:05
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55801819

It was in here

Trump will be looking for those "missing Georgia votes" for a long time. His ardent supporters on the tweety bird might be waiting even longer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, January 26, 2021, 11:04:10
With the government set to remove their boosted payment to Universal Credit, the nation is set to see some 6m people in the UK impacted by this measure. Whilst still in an ongoing pandemic it seems a strange move to remove at this time. Surely an extension for another year would make more sense.

For reflection the £6bn cost to be covered would total a 1p increase in Income Tax and 5p in Fuel Duty. I'd personally be more than happy to pay the miniscule rise in order to continue helping the most poor people in our country. With so much uncertainty in employment to come, even post-pandemic some might be wise to think their initial answer whilst possibly still in a job currently. We know a lot of "i'm alright Jack" is prevalent in much of the UK but I can't see how several people can be cock sure of that attitude in these uncertain times.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-9164323/Universal-Credit-need-know-20-monthly-boost-debate.html

Apologies that the following is the currant bun. It appears Sunak is trying to get around this with a one off payment...but hang on, wasn't it this government that barely trusted the great unwashed with paying £30 a week for food for kids, as they might spend it on junk. Yet here they are offering to pay £1k one off to largely many of those same people...Not certain of the detail (the Sun lacks here, shock) but it may also be an "advance" style payment that is repaid so I'm not sure that really helps anyone.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13831951/rishi-sunak-boost-universal-credit/

Interesting point about what £6 billion is worth. What I find more interesting, is that sort of comparison is often made made talking about benefits payments, but never when talking about £22 billion for a failed track and trace or £120 + billion for a new nuclear weapons system.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, January 26, 2021, 12:03:50
Interesting point about what £6 billion is worth. What I find more interesting, is that sort of comparison is often made made talking about benefits payments, but never when talking about £22 billion for a failed track and trace or £120 + billion for a new nuclear weapons system.

Someone has noted that Germany’s Test & Trace cost £50 million and works; U.K. cost £22,000 million and doesn’t work.

To put that into some sort of context, its been calculated that ten grand a day, every day, since the end of the Bronze Age. That's how much this government handed over to Dido Harding to deliver a Test & Trace system that doesn't work'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Tuesday, January 26, 2021, 12:07:27
World beating


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 28, 2021, 10:11:36
So Johnson is off to Scotland today to shore up the Union, that's going to help  :D :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Thursday, January 28, 2021, 10:19:50
Essential trip of course.

I see Sturgeon is kicking up about it, to be fair she is right


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 28, 2021, 14:45:38
Not in the public interest I see...

https://goodlawproject.org/update/ramping-up-costs-silence-us/
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Thursday, January 28, 2021, 15:06:01
Someone has noted that Germany’s Test & Trace cost £50 million and works; U.K. cost £22,000 million and doesn’t work.

To put that into some sort of context, its been calculated that ten grand a day, every day, since the end of the Bronze Age. That's how much this government handed over to Dido Harding to deliver a Test & Trace system that doesn't work'

But Johnson says they have done all they can to line the pockets of their mates


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, January 28, 2021, 18:49:08
Interesting point about what £6 billion is worth. What I find more interesting, is that sort of comparison is often made made talking about benefits payments, but never when talking about £22 billion for a failed track and trace or £120 + billion for a new nuclear weapons system.

As well as benefits payments, you can also throw the "immigration problem" (there isn't one, people are racist) into that 'comparison' element too. Which works out even less of a cost "burden" on the public purse. Also like the world aid budget too. Strange ey?!

As for "new nuclear weapons system", haha don't be silly...they'll get the money but it'll only be spent on maintaining the current weapons (and systems) anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Friday, January 29, 2021, 08:18:39
Not in the public interest I see...

https://goodlawproject.org/update/ramping-up-costs-silence-us/
 
This is fucking maddening


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, February 4, 2021, 11:05:01
"You won, get over it"

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/cornwall-fisherman-says-brexit-export-4956923


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 4, 2021, 11:16:04
You know that border down the Irish Sea that definitely wasn't going to be in the oven ready deal? Apparently it is there, and even though it's a wonderful deal, best deal in the world, beautiful bigly deal, and Johnson and Gove definitely read it, of course they did, what kind of fools do you think they are? Yeah, well it's a bit of a problem anyway. So Gove's going cap in hand to the EU to ask them to extend the grace period. Fortunately, relations with the EU since Jan have been really smooth so they're bound to give us some leeway on this.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-nireland-gove/uk-asks-eu-for-brexit-grace-period-extension-to-2023-bbc-reports-idUSKBN2A312N


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 4, 2021, 11:53:02
Just so we can get this clear (but remember its all the EU's fault!)

Boris Johnson said he'd never agree an Irish Sea border, then agreed it, denied he'd agreed what he'd agreed, then implemented it...& now says there must not be an Irish Sea border.

I have to admit even in this political age, there's something rather remarkable about this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Thursday, February 4, 2021, 13:04:15
Blue passports, though fellas  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, February 4, 2021, 14:17:47
I was just listening to a piece on Radio 2 about the 'border' in Northern Ireland and someone who has a leather company over there used to be sent a 20kg box from a supplier in Manchester that would cost £13. Because of all the customs shenanigans after Brexit this now costs £75. He was saying that he has now had to change his supplier to one in Texas at a flat cost of £12. How does it make any sense that the charges have got so astronomical?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, February 4, 2021, 14:30:28
I guess the goods are 'at risk' of going to EU, and so customs tariff applies.

in my limited experience is not just the customs charges, but the bloody handling charges that push things up.

that does seem astronomical, and I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to good from Texas


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, February 4, 2021, 14:45:37
I guess the goods are 'at risk' of going to EU, and so customs tariff applies.

in my limited experience is not just the customs charges, but the bloody handling charges that push things up.

that does seem astronomical, and I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to good from Texas

Yeah, he did say the goods are for the Northern Irish market, so never go to the Republic, but the EU I guess can never be 100% sure that isn't the case.

Yes its not just custom charges but a whack of other ones that add up to such a large amount. Crazy isn't it that you can get something for cheaper from much further away!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 4, 2021, 14:46:32
I guess the goods are 'at risk' of going to EU, and so customs tariff applies.

in my limited experience is not just the customs charges, but the bloody handling charges that push things up.

that does seem astronomical, and I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to good from Texas

Its goods being imported into the EU froma third country so the rules that we were happy to apply to third countries now apply to us.

WRT to the TExas thing, no idea albeit I wonder whether it might be becuase the UK american market is a known thing, presently UK/EU is new and no one has a sodding clue what is going on so it takes time at the moment.

I hope someone suggested that the guy direct his questions to a Mr Johnson, Downing Street, London - this bloke https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1350198471500963840?s=20


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 11:43:27
Sent some colouring books & pens to my 4 year old nephew in Sweden about 10 days ago.  Had to fill out a Customs Declaration Form at the Post Office.  When I asked what the form was all about, the poor woman behind the counter just rolled her eyes & shrugged apologetically.

Now my sister in law (in Sweden) has been in touch.  Before they can collect the parcel, they need to confirm its contents with the Swedish postal service.

Fucking lunacy.  God only knows how small businesses trying to export to the EU are faring if we're having to jump through all these hoops to get £15 worth of kids' stationery sent there.  And some people actually supporting this nonsense.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 12:19:05
David Frost appointed a Cabinet Minister for dealing with the ongoing rolling catastrafuck that is Brexit. Because far from being the easiest deal we'll ever do, it's such a shitshow it requires a full Cabinet Minister to have it as his sole responsibility. And an unelected bureaucrat at that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 12:56:45
David Frost appointed a Cabinet Minister for dealing with the ongoing rolling catastrafuck that is Brexit. Because far from being the easiest deal we'll ever do, it's such a shitshow it requires a full Cabinet Minister to have it as his sole responsibility. And an unelected bureaucrat at that.
For balance it must be stated that unelected bureaucrats are not exclusive to the Tories. Mandelson, Adonis, chakrabati off the top of my head.
I'm not defending this shameful, disgusting, poisonous government by the way.
In terms of Brexit, it was obvious both parties wanted an agreement and almost let things work themselves out as they couldn't actually agree. That's what's happening.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 13:30:20
For balance it must be stated that unelected bureaucrats are not exclusive to the Tories. Mandelson, Adonis, chakrabati off the top of my head.
Leaving aside the fact that Mandelson was an MP, so was elected, the point is that Labour didn't campaign for Brexit to "get rid of unelected bureaucrats", Gove and Johnson did. Only to appoint more of them


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 14:29:23
Leaving aside the fact that Mandelson was an MP, so was elected, the point is that Labour didn't campaign for Brexit to "get rid of unelected bureaucrats", Gove and Johnson did. Only to appoint more of them

If the story in the FT is to be believed Frost threw his toys out the pram and demanded a cabinet position for his loyalty and thus Johnson rolled over and obliged.

As Frost was broadly responsible for negotiating Johnsons 'deal' it does have an air of taking a dump in your own bed and then demanding a massive fee and promotion to try and tidy up your own mess.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 16:25:14

Fucking lunacy.  God only knows how small businesses trying to export to the EU are faring if we're having to jump through all these hoops to get £15 worth of kids' stationery sent there.  And some people actually supporting this nonsense.

There have been similar issues for myself in regards to photography. Went to send a print to Greece from the PO and the person behaved like I was doing something incredibly alien. They huffed a lot, mumbled something about having to go and get something from the back, then came back and said they didn't have the required paperwork! I stated "It's purely just a photographic print and only needs basic compensation cover"... There was a shrug and a "Is there anything else I can help you with?"  :crash:

Also Nikon stopped shipping anything to the UK and wouldn't take any new orders. Haven't checked recently but it was the case going into Feb.

The only guidance (or workaround) I was given when requested, was to set up a business within Europe (I think they meant the EU), which just really is neither affordable or practical for myself at present. Unless someone has a shed in France they'd like to loan me? Even then, it'd still need to be "operated" or "distributed" from there.

Britain's Post-Brexit status: Rotting fish, red tpe, and lost business.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 16:27:48
that's not good bamboo.

but at least photographs can be digital I suppose


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 16:32:33
I was going to ask if anyone had any experience posting anything to Europe since the start of the year. I would like to have a box full of my things posted over from the UK but I am worried about customs charges/tax being applied as well as delays


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 16:33:21
Leaving aside the fact that Mandelson was an MP, so was elected, the point is that Labour didn't campaign for Brexit to "get rid of unelected bureaucrats", Gove and Johnson did. Only to appoint more of them
He served in cabinet both elected and unelected, I believe. I agree about the hypocrisy, however but it's endemic in politics now regardless of party. I can't think of a uk politic party with any integrity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 16:37:17
that's not good bamboo.

but at least photographs can be digital I suppose

It may have just been the inept or unpreparedness of the staff at that particular office, so it may not be the case elsewhere. Which still isn't ideal as really positive consistency builds good trust and working relationships (even if only temporary ones).

They can, and digital proofs are ok if maybe sending work for online publications or a customer only wants digital (rare for personal) but a print in hand, art book or on a wall etc is still much better.

I always say, you have to continually adapt regardless of how any situation evolves. If you don't evolve with it you get left behind, then end up playing catch up.

Everyone (mostly) will be taking a hit but there are worse situations to be in than my own.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 17:11:37
I can't think of a uk politic party with any integrity.

I would like to say the Greens, but from my direct experience of dealing with them on a local level they are as bad as the rest!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 17:17:12
He served in cabinet both elected and unelected, I believe. I agree about the hypocrisy, however but it's endemic in politics now regardless of party. I can't think of a uk politic party with any integrity.
I wasn't looking to exonerate any one party, I was pointing out that the Brexiteers specifically campaigned on this point but abandoned it when they'd "won". Like they did the £350m for the NHS, better deal for fishing, easiest trade deal in history, sunlit uplands etc. It's almost as if the whole campaign was a pack of lies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 17:19:31
There have been similar issues for myself in regards to photography. Went to send a print to Greece from the PO and the person behaved like I was doing something incredibly alien. They huffed a lot, mumbled something about having to go and get something from the back, then came back and said they didn't have the required paperwork! I stated "It's purely just a photographic print and only needs basic compensation cover"... There was a shrug and a "Is there anything else I can help you with?"  :crash:

Anything ELSE? You haven't helped me with this yet!



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 17:23:16
There have been similar issues for myself in regards to photography. Went to send a print to Greece from the PO and the person behaved like I was doing something incredibly alien. They huffed a lot, mumbled something about having to go and get something from the back, then came back and said they didn't have the required paperwork! I stated "It's purely just a photographic print and only needs basic compensation cover"... There was a shrug and a "Is there anything else I can help you with?"  :crash:

Also Nikon stopped shipping anything to the UK and wouldn't take any new orders. Haven't checked recently but it was the case going into Feb.

The only guidance (or workaround) I was given when requested, was to set up a business within Europe (I think they meant the EU), which just really is neither affordable or practical for myself at present. Unless someone has a shed in France they'd like to loan me? Even then, it'd still need to be "operated" or "distributed" from there.
RedFrog should set himself up as the TEF's EU outlet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 18:08:30
Anything ELSE? You haven't helped me with this yet!



Well exactly, I soon left!. Eee to the fucking aww.

RedFrog should set himself up as the TEF's EU outlet.

Ha, there are quite a few France based exiles on the TEF but for myself, I don't do enough to justify having international "offices". I could work from anywhere I suppose but that would just mean the same problem reversed for sending any stuff UK bound. Always worth a ponder though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 18:13:12
I wasn't looking to exonerate any one party, I was pointing out that the Brexiteers specifically campaigned on this point but abandoned it when they'd "won". Like they did the £350m for the NHS, better deal for fishing, easiest trade deal in history, sunlit uplands etc. It's almost as if the whole campaign was a pack of lies.
Of course it was a pack of lies. Didn't make one jot of difference to me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 18:19:52
Of course it was a pack of lies. Didn't make one jot of difference to me.

What information were you using to make your decision then Chalkie? Serious question as I find it hard that as a Brexit voter (you), there was zero influence from the Leave campaign on making your decision? Was it just a hunch-based decision or something else?

It'd be interesting to know your own personal take.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 18:42:50
What information were you using to make your decision then Chalkie? Serious question as I find it hard that as a Brexit voter (you), there was zero influence from the Leave campaign on making your decision? Was it just a hunch-based decision or something else?

It'd be interesting to know your own personal take.
I was anti EU before ukip formed. I didn't have an issue with a common market. It was when it widened it's remit I had an issue. It seemed to me ages ago it was headed for a united States of Europe with one currency, one tax, one president etc etc. I still believe it's the goal. I didn't want to be part of it.
I also couldn't quite believe the common agricultural policy.
People are either too young or forget how much change there was when we joined. Decimalisation, fucking over the commonwealth etc.
If it stopped at free trading zones, I'd gave been ok as would most other Brexiteers I know.
Incidentally, I know about 20 Brexiteers from different walks of life and every one of them, including me, were no deal Brexiteers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, February 18, 2021, 23:38:25
I was anti EU before ukip formed. I didn't have an issue with a common market. It was when it widened it's remit I had an issue. It seemed to me ages ago it was headed for a united States of Europe with one currency, one tax, one president etc etc. I still believe it's the goal. I didn't want to be part of it.
I also couldn't quite believe the common agricultural policy.
People are either too young or forget how much change there was when we joined. Decimalisation, fucking over the commonwealth etc.
If it stopped at free trading zones, I'd gave been ok as would most other Brexiteers I know.



It's nice to get a more balanced view, rather than a deranged one thst you sometimes get when asking soem why they voted (on whatever topic, subject or side of the coin). It did appear to be quite generational in terms of voter intention, along with unfortunately a bunch of knobheads too.

What I'm more interested in, is not so much about what has been and gone (decimilisation etc, I personally think that was a good move to even things out. Which is why I have no issue with any move toward a universal currency or asset. We kind of had it anyway worldwide when the dollar was pegged to gold, in economic terms).... but yeah, why didn't you want to be a part of it? I know there is pride in standing alone but as the old addage goes, "no man is an island" even the UK (despite the topographical obvious) and surely working together in numbers is always better, especially when it concerns world economics?

Unless the plan is to isolate ourselves as a nation and become more inwardly facing, less open and more selfish to some degree. But that isn't the UK I know and love. Our openness (and I'm not just talking about acceptance of humanity to our shores), in technology and quite relevantly at present, science and space. The freedom to work anywhere in 22 other countries with no issue or just to travel and explore within those places, purely if one chose to do so.

That and much more may (in some caes already has) now be taken away from people in generations behind myself. For e.g my neice might not be able to do those things, without greater difficulty or scrutiny. We should she, a child that didn't get to vote on this matter have those (imo) benefits taken away from her and so many other people who will be around much longer after we have gone?

I'm not saying the decision was either right or wrong but it seems every decision made today is still so short sighted (5yrs, 10yrs) and there's very little thought how these things might be difficult for people even 50yrs down the line. I could use the UK motorway network (or the whole transport system as a whole) as an example. Always built for the moment but absolute zero futureproofing. Which is why we see the ripping up of the M1 to create extra lanes for expansion or the usage of the hard shoulder on the M25.

But back on point, apologies (I felt it offered a "bigger picture" opinión) yes, why was it that you didn't want to be a part of "it"? Why would the "one currency" effect be something to be against, from your point of view?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Friday, February 19, 2021, 09:26:43
A lot of Brexiteers are probably pissed off with being regarded as racist unintelligent old inward bitter twisted fuckers. It's just part of politics and life nowadays that if I think differently to you then I'm the one with a problem. So we demonise them. Some posters are probably just living up to the image for their own amusement. Personally, I don't give a fuck what people think of me.
I suppose for me it all boils down to my belief bigger is not always best. It's down to decision making. I don't think withdrawing from the EU makes you more inward looking. In fact, the opposite. There are over 200 countries out there. Yet we are locking ourselves into 20 odd white, Christian countries.
People could move and work abroad pre EU but it was more merit based than a birth right. I think this is better.
In terms of economy, yes we'll take a hit and businesses will have to adjust, which any business of any age has had to do before, particularly when we joined the common market.
We decided to leave. We should have expected nothing from the EU. We should have planned for no deal before triggering article 50. We should never gave separated the divorce from the deal. We should also have ensured we calculated our assets in the EU and fought for them.
Sorry long winded but could have gone on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 19, 2021, 12:34:43
I don't think you were on here when chalkies was posting before, bamboo, but if you weren't, he's about the only person I've seen give a decent explanation of why he voted Leave. Kind of the voice of rational Brexit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 26, 2021, 11:34:20
To the surprise of absolutely no-one, our local MP being a shameless hypocrite in defence of a govt with zero respect for the law once again

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/26/justice-secretary-defends-matt-hancock-over-breach-of-law


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Friday, February 26, 2021, 12:26:29
Well that's alright then I can murder someone once because I got it wrong as I only meant to main them but as long as I don't do it again it's ok.
I can't remember a government so lacking in morals but I think that's the way of the world at the moment. The fact labour can't may a glove on them says a lot for starmer unless you go for the theory of keeping his powder dry.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, February 26, 2021, 12:41:15
Tricky for starve Starmer, attacking while in a pandemic would be seen as using it for political gain.

not been impressed, but I do think the gloves are still on


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, February 26, 2021, 12:43:42
Labour need to get rid of Starmer. Rightly or wrongly, people haven't taken to him and we could be looking at another large Tory majority after the next election if things go on as they are. He's no doubt not been helped by all the in-fighting. The country is in the grips of a Tory government running rampant and the opposition seem more concerned about their own lot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 26, 2021, 12:51:04
The fact labour can't may a glove on them says a lot for starmer unless you go for the theory of keeping his powder dry.


I don't think it says much about Starmer or Labour to be honest, if the media won't report things he's stuck between a rock and a hard place. He gives Johnson a kicking each PMQ's yet Hoyle for whatever reason will never stop Johnson lying or ask him to correct the record.

Similarly with the stuff about Hancock breaking the law, compare the limited reporting this has been getting in the media with the extent they are reporting the Salmond/Strugeon stuff and Harry/Meghan.

The problem/issue is that if people only get their news from the MSM then Labours voice is limited.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 26, 2021, 12:52:14
Labour need to get rid of Starmer. Rightly or wrongly, people haven't taken to him and we could be looking at another large Tory majority after the next election if things go on as they are. He's no doubt not been helped by all the in-fighting. The country is in the grips of a Tory government running rampant and the opposition seem more concerned about their own lot.

And replace with who? for the reasons noted above no Labour leader is going to get a fair crack of the whip until the media turn against Johnson.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Friday, February 26, 2021, 13:08:36
Bucklands logic is beyond comprehension and shows how unfit he is for that office - similar to virtually every Tory minister. Main stream media do report anti Johnson / anti Tory news. I don't think that can be used an excuse for Labours continuing failures. I know they are mostly right wing but there's enough stuff out there. I think its a case of a lot of people don't give a fuck or for those that do, no credible alternative at the moment.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, February 26, 2021, 15:05:24
Both of Swindon's MP's are utterly vile individuals. The evidence against the pair is overwhelming. People still vote for that pair of cunts though.

Labour are in no mans land. Trying to steer toward the middle ground after the last GE walkover and in doing so angering their core voters. Greens for me as things stand.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Friday, February 26, 2021, 15:33:05
Both of Swindon's MP's are utterly vile individuals. The evidence against the pair is overwhelming. People still vote for that pair of cunts though.

Labour are in no mans land. Trying to steer toward the middle ground after the last GE walkover and in doing so angering their core voters. Greens for me as things stand.
I think labour would be better off splitting in two. Let Corbyn and his momentum acolytes set up their own party and let labour get back to centre left and electable once again.
Momentum are a nasty bunch of cunts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Banker on Friday, February 26, 2021, 15:56:28
I think labour would be better off splitting in two. Let Corbyn and his momentum acolytes set up their own party and let labour get back to centre left and electable once again.
Momentum are a nasty bunch of cunts.


Often thought the same with the ERG 'kipper wing agitating alongside the one nation Tories (normally). Big problem with FPTP when each of the big two keep the broadest of broad churches, and just look at the trouble it's caused over the years.

Right wing, inside right, CF (lib Dem), inside left, left wing - simples !


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, February 26, 2021, 17:40:12
Often thought the same with the ERG 'kipper wing agitating alongside the one nation Tories (normally). Big problem with FPTP when each of the big two keep the broadest of broad churches, and just look at the trouble it's caused over the years.

Right wing, inside right, CF (lib Dem), inside left, left wing - simples !
Which is why we should replace the clearly not fit for purpose FPTP with some form of PR. And also why it won't happen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, March 3, 2021, 13:04:21
Through the looking glass now folks, a Conservative exchequer ramping up corporation tax and spending loads of money. Funny old world, isn't it!

Edit: A massive tax write off for investment by companies though - basically if you're a company, invest every penny you've got and don't claim an accounting profit!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Wednesday, March 3, 2021, 13:10:47
He seems to have split it though with a smaller rate applying to companies with lower profits.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, March 3, 2021, 13:21:57
Tell you what, I wouldn't fancy responding to this for Labour. Going after the northern towns vote in some style. They're a lot better at politics than Theresa May ever was, for sure.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 3, 2021, 13:37:49
Tell you what, I wouldn't fancy responding to this for Labour. Going after the northern towns vote in some style. They're a lot better at politics than Theresa May ever was, for sure.

Thing is they know the northern towns vote was/is slipping substantially already, and this is before the real effects of Brexit seep through. They have fucked over the fishermen, they are fucking over the farmers (the main votes they always got up north), they are sticking two fingers up at business etc etc.

Its going to be an interesting term of parliament this one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, March 3, 2021, 14:19:01
Corporation tax to 25%. Labour wanted to go to 26% in 2019. Critic's said they'd cripple the country. Go figure.

Fuck all for keyworkers as expected.

 Also proof that money is and was always available if they wanted it to be. Austerity in 2010 wasn't necessary and everything they cut and closed didn't have to be. Yeah, I still hate the Tories.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, March 3, 2021, 15:29:49
Bizarre that he included a direct lie about Freeports only being permissible as a result of Brexit (there are several Freeports in the EU, we could have had them at any time we wanted). I thought there was some special legal status about Chancellors directly lying (as opposed to just bullshitting) in the Budget?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 3, 2021, 16:08:17
Corporation tax to 25%. Labour wanted to go to 26% in 2019. Critic's said they'd cripple the country. Go figure.

'Every time corporation tax has been cut in this country it has produced more revenue'

Boris Johnson 2019.

I wonder what will happen with it, been suggested that Labour might vote against it and if so many Tories might join them, Johnson has suggested that it is a confidence issue with the whip being removed from any dissenters.

My cynical view is this budget has less to do with economic recovery and more to do with the promotion of Brand Rishi!

Bizarre that he included a direct lie about Freeports only being permissible as a result of Brexit (there are several Freeports in the EU, we could have had them at any time we wanted). I thought there was some special legal status about Chancellors directly lying (as opposed to just bullshitting) in the Budget?

There were several in the UK until 2012. Liverpool, Southampton, Port of Tilbury, Port of Sheerness and Prestwick Airport, before David Cameron's Conservative government allowed legislation allowing free ports to expire.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 4, 2021, 10:32:22
https://www.politics.co.uk/comment/2021/03/03/the-real-motive-behind-todays-budget/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 4, 2021, 10:49:39
So, aside from destroying the economy, how many lives are the govt willing to sacrifice to their nationalist post-Brexit posturing?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-56276653


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, March 4, 2021, 15:12:21
So, aside from destroying the economy, how many lives are the govt willing to sacrifice to their nationalist post-Brexit posturing?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-56276653

How things have changed. The mural artists in Irish border towns used to be much more talented.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Thursday, March 4, 2021, 15:14:21
How things have changed. The mural artists in Irish border towns used to be much more talented.

And more literate


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, March 4, 2021, 15:28:40
When I lived in Scotland we went for a weekend in Northern Ireland where we went to some Motorbike race in Portrush. We stayed in Newtownards which has some 'interesting' art. Myself and another English guy ended up drinking too much smirnoff ice (it was on tap on the pubs over there) and got lost trying to find our way back to the house. At 2am in the pitch black we turned a corner and I nearly had a heart attack as facing us was a house sized mural with graves, balaclava covered faces, guns etc. I was fairly naieve in those days and had had too much booze to be really concerned but I think under sober circumstances would probably have been a bit more worried!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, March 4, 2021, 15:36:20
And more literate

I think the link there is related to driving out most of the poets too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, March 4, 2021, 15:42:07
We stayed in Newtownards which has some 'interesting' art. Myself and another English guy ended up drinking too much smirnoff ice (it was on tap on the pubs over there) and got lost trying to find our way back to the house...

...a house sized mural with graves, balaclava covered faces, guns etc. I was fairly naive in those days and had had too much booze to be really concerned but I think under sober circumstances would probably have been a bit more worried!

Funny you mention Newtownards (Newton-ards as it's said), it's not too far from where some of my family live. Haven't been to NI for several years. But yes, the mural work was always impressive, even if used for propaganda purposes.

I actually quite like Bangor around those parts and Strangford Lough etc.

Smirnoff Ice on tap though :cry: haha!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 4, 2021, 15:45:53
When I lived in Scotland we went for a weekend in Northern Ireland where we went to some Motorbike race in Portrush. We stayed in Newtownards which has some 'interesting' art. Myself and another English guy ended up drinking too much smirnoff ice (it was on tap on the pubs over there) and got lost trying to find our way back to the house. At 2am in the pitch black we turned a corner and I nearly had a heart attack as facing us was a house sized mural with graves, balaclava covered faces, guns etc. I was fairly naieve in those days and had had too much booze to be really concerned but I think under sober circumstances would probably have been a bit more worried!

A fair few years back I went to a conference in Derry/Londonderry which I have to say was fine albeit a bit of an eye opener, I remember standing on the city walls and looking out over the Bogside with all the murals and history associated with that area.

Then again I also remember going into a pub in Edinburgh, ordering a pint and sitting down facing my mate and noticing on the wall behind him a mural saying something like 'we will never surrender to the English scum', we drank up fairly quickly and left!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, March 4, 2021, 15:56:53
A fair few years back I went to a conference in Derry/Londonderry which I have to say was fine albeit a bit of an eye opener, I remember standing on the city walls and looking out over the Bogside with all the murals and history associated with that area.

Then again I also remember going into a pub in Edinburgh, ordering a pint and sitting down facing my mate and noticing on the wall behind him a mural saying something like 'we will never surrender to the English scum', we drank up fairly quickly and left!

Its interesting those types of attitudes that exist. I had to endure a little bit of racism as an Englisman in Scotland but that was mainly angry men in pubs during Football matches rather than anything more sinister.

My wife's from County Mayo and they have some quite narrow minded attitudes towards the English as well. We went to some bar and 2 old men were wearing jackets celebrating 100 years of the IRA and I figured I would be best to avoid them. Unfortunately later that night we ended up having a 'chat' in the jacks, and he heard my accent and proceeded to introduce me as a 'tan' to his mate. It was all jovial enough but you just never know when or where these things can turn. We ended up shaking hands and something wasn't right. He only had 2 fingers as apparently he had shot the rest of them off when trying to load a gun back in his paramilitary days. Hence his nickname 'fingers'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, March 4, 2021, 16:23:24
Its interesting those types of attitudes that exist. I had to endure a little bit of racism as an Englisman in Scotland but that was mainly angry men in pubs during Football matches rather than anything more sinister.


Funny thing is that on the same trip we ended up watching the Calcutta Cup in a pub with loads of scots and England got a very fortuitous and late win (it was 1994 I reckon), anyway by then a shit load of alcohol had been taken and everyone was dancing and up on the furniture etc. We started thinking that a quick exit would be an idea but then a bouncer came over to me and rather aggressively asked me to get off the chairs, suddenly this massive hairly arsed Scottish guy barged between us and told the bouncer that if he was going to kick his new English mates out he would have to kick him out as well, totally defused the situation - if was just odd.

As for Smirnoff Ice on tap, a Scottish mate of mine used to drink WKD by the pint!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, March 4, 2021, 16:34:39

 a Scottish mate of mine used to drink WKD by the pint!

Blue WKD and Port used to be our drink of choice when we went Corporate to watch Hearts. It's known as a cheeky vimto and is actually quite pleasant (or it was when I was in my twenties!)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Thursday, March 4, 2021, 17:11:41
Ahem, can we keep it to transfer rumours please everyone, thank you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, March 4, 2021, 17:13:24
Ahem, can we keep it to transfer rumours please everyone, thank you.

No, go fuck yourself FH!  :smugfu: ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Thursday, March 4, 2021, 17:15:38
No, go fuck yourself FH!  :smugfu: ;)

*splits thread*

*rants*



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, March 5, 2021, 10:58:07
Any Tory voter who clapped for the NHS should feel embarrassed and ashamed today. Not that their measly rise is anything of a shock to many of us. Disgraceful.
This is without the Pritty Patel farce the tax payers and footing the bill for so she can avoid court


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, March 5, 2021, 11:14:35
Any Tory voter who clapped for the NHS should feel embarrassed and ashamed today. Not that their measly rise is anything of a shock to many of us. Disgraceful.
This is without the Pritty Patel farce the tax payers and footing the bill for so she can avoid court


To be fair, it must be difficult for them to find the money after having to give another 15bn to their mates at SERCO.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 5, 2021, 11:39:59
Any Tory voter who clapped for the NHS should feel embarrassed and ashamed today. Not that their measly rise is anything of a shock to many of us. Disgraceful.
This is without the Pritty Patel farce the tax payers and footing the bill for so she can avoid court


So that's £100K paid out to Sonia Khan due to Dominic Cummings; £207K wasted on legal costs by Matt Hancock; £55K wasted on reputation management by Dido Harding; and now £370K paid out to Philip Rutnam due to Priti Patel.

As noted by 'The Secret Barrister' on Twitter.... Priti Patel is spared the embarrassment of a public trial thanks to her activist lawyers using public funds for political ends. Or is this ok? It’s so hard to keep up.

The Tories....
1990s: Cash for Questions.
2020s: Cash for No Questions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Friday, March 5, 2021, 12:53:30
And yet following the budget etc the Tories have increased their lead over labour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, March 5, 2021, 12:59:21
And yet following the budget etc the Tories have increased their lead over labour.

What a world we live in.

A lot of those giving them that lead will be those most affected by them.

But Corbyn...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, March 5, 2021, 14:20:58
Turkey's vote for Christmas here. Fools.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Saturday, March 6, 2021, 08:51:22
We may have had this topic already (apologies if so) But let us be fair, we cannot have politicians signing off high value Tory mates important PPE contracts and eating their 12.5k takeaways in slum like conditions can we?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/06/downing-street-spent-26m-refurbishing-no-9-as-media-centre


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, March 6, 2021, 19:13:19
I see Lawrence Fox has declared he's running for London Mayor getting himself more attention.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Saturday, March 6, 2021, 20:00:47
We may have had this topic already (apologies if so) But let us be fair, we cannot have politicians signing off high value Tory mates important PPE contracts and eating their 12.5k takeaways in slum like conditions can we?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/06/downing-street-spent-26m-refurbishing-no-9-as-media-centre
But Corbyn...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, March 6, 2021, 21:15:52
I see Lawrence Fox has declared he's running for London Mayor getting himself more attention.

We got some election bumpf through from an independent candidate which said basically nothing about him apart from being a "successful businessman with sensible policies".

I Googled, he's a conspiracy theorist YouTuber. The bar to run for London Mayor is set very low for a race of its profile, so we get all sorts of odd candidates. This time, even before Foxy joined the race, we have Count Binface what stood against Theresa May that one time, the guy who founded Pimlico Plumbers and a UKIP candidate whose name is actually Gammons.

Even the Tories seem to have put up a joke candidate, so there's that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Sunday, March 7, 2021, 00:12:41
I see Lawrence Fox has declared he's running for London Mayor getting himself more attention.

He's a proper bellend. Glads are billie gots out of that 1.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Sunday, March 7, 2021, 12:18:40
Yeah hes a massive prick. Spent all that time saying he wasnt going to wear a mask etc because of his breaches his human rights, then buys an im exempt from wearing a mask lanyard from amazon and says he cant wear a mask because of anxiety. Blokes a cunt


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Sunday, March 7, 2021, 12:28:47
Yeah hes a massive prick. Spent all that time saying he wasnt going to wear a mask etc because of his breaches his human rights, then buys an im exempt from wearing a mask lanyard from amazon and says he cant wear a mask because of anxiety. Blokes a cunt
He was quite interesting on question time and made some decent points but since then he's been a dickhead.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, March 7, 2021, 12:50:35
Just another cunt who's found himself in a lucrative niche I reckon. A professional troll. I wonder how much of the stuff he spouts he actually believes - the same with the likes of Hopkins and Yaxley-Lennon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, March 7, 2021, 12:56:58
yup, can be quite lucrative because enough people believe in the shite they spread, unfortunately.

add Hartley-Brewer to the list to


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, March 7, 2021, 16:28:24
And knowing society as it is, he's just going to end up becoming Mayor of nodnoL. if BoJo can do it anyone can.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, March 7, 2021, 16:51:24
And knowing society as it is, he's just going to end up becoming Mayor of nodnoL. if BoJo can do it anyone can.

I'll happily put you up decent odds on him getting his deposit back! If you were going to start an "anti-woke protest movement" London would be about the last place you'd want to start. Just Lozza doesn't much fancy himself up in the red wall I'd imagine...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Sunday, March 7, 2021, 18:19:26
I'll happily put you up decent odds on him getting his deposit back! If you were going to start an "anti-woke protest movement" London would be about the last place you'd want to start. Just Lozza doesn't much fancy himself up in the red wall I'd imagine...

As I say, BoJo became mayor and he's the biggest clown of the lot. You watch Fox change his strategy slightly if he does indeed campaign seriously to become mayor. He's got (for whatever reason) a public following. It's very much in the vein of Hopkins/SY-L/Morgan etc. Some people love the whole faux outrage these days and suck it all up. Gullible? I don't know but the public seem easily swayed.

Except Barrymore, they'll never forgive Barrymore  :no:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, March 8, 2021, 09:07:25
Carl of Swindon has nearly a million subscribers on YouTube and he didn't get voted into South Wests European council seat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 8, 2021, 09:15:54
As I say, BoJo became mayor and he's the biggest clown of the lot. You watch Fox change his strategy slightly if he does indeed campaign seriously to become mayor. He's got (for whatever reason) a public following. It's very much in the vein of Hopkins/SY-L/Morgan etc. Some people love the whole faux outrage these days and suck it all up. Gullible? I don't know but the public seem easily swayed.
He's not trying to get elected. He's in the mould of populist right wing grifters like Farage and Yaxley Lennon who use the politics as a bully pulpit to get the gullible to sign up to donate to their "Stop me from being silenced" campaign/buy merch/subscribe to funds etc to fund the luxury lifestyle, million pound mansions and mountains of coke.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, March 8, 2021, 09:57:15
Fox is a puppet of whoever is funding him, its just chipping away at bringing hard right opinions into the mainstream and be normalised by the media, much as with Brexit its a long term well funded process.

A highlight over the weekend was Fox explaining that he was doing this as he had been dominated into silence, he did this writing apiece in the Telegraph so the domination into silence isn't that bad is it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, March 8, 2021, 10:02:29
It seems to be a new alt-right mantra that's emerged.

"WE HAVE NO VOICE": He said - to an audience of millions.

You've got right-wing papers dominating the print media and TV apparently leaning increasingly further that way as well. But, still, the idiots will lap it up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Monday, March 8, 2021, 10:48:44
An anti woke agenda is quite clever at the moment. It wont be too difficult to attract a decent following. For every action, there's a reaction.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, March 8, 2021, 10:57:26
Sorry you'll have to help me out again with all this. What is anti woke agenda? Woke is basically people that are snowflakes right?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Monday, March 8, 2021, 10:59:29
Sorry you'll have to help me out again with all this. What is anti woke agenda? Woke is basically people that are snowflakes right?
If a brexiteer is a gammon then a woke person is a snowflake. I'd prefer to use neither term myself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, March 8, 2021, 11:00:46
Sorry you'll have to help me out again with all this. What is anti woke agenda? Woke is basically people that are snowflakes right?

Well sort of, yes in the eye of the right at least. However the definition of woke is actually 'alert to injustice in society, especially racism.' which to many is a good thing but to those trying to stoke some sort of culture war, being alert to injustice is a bad thing apparently. oh I don't know any more.

Its a bit like the mess which has become being anti antifa......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 8, 2021, 11:22:08
Its a bit like the mess which has become being anti antifa......
That's dead easy. Antifa is a contraction of anti-fascist. Anti-anti is a redundant double ngeative. Anti-antifas are just fascists. HTH


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Broadbents Tackle on Monday, March 8, 2021, 11:56:24
That's dead easy. Antifa is a contraction of anti-fascist. Anti-anti is a redundant double ngeative. Anti-antifas are just fascists. HTH

Out of interest, how would you describe anyone who is opposed to the Democratic Republic of North Korea?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Monday, March 8, 2021, 11:58:51
Out of interest, how would you describe anyone who is opposed to the Democratic Republic of North Korea?
Alive


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Hunk on Monday, March 8, 2021, 12:33:11
Anti-antifas are just fascists. HTH

That's not true. Antifa is just a name, you can oppose the way they conduct themselves and/or doubt that they really do embody the values that the name suggests that they do. That wouldn't make you a fascist. That would just make you unconvinced they represent who they say they represent
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 8, 2021, 12:37:30
That's not true. Antifa is just a name, you can oppose the way they conduct themselves and/or doubt that they really do embody the values that the name suggests that they do. That wouldn't make you a fascist. That would just make you unconvinced they represent who they say they represent
 
Etymologically speaking yes. But all the people I have seen describing themselves as "anti-antifa", it's just a case of simplifying the fraction.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 8, 2021, 12:39:54
Out of interest, how would you describe anyone who is opposed to the Democratic Republic of North Korea?
Perfectly sensible. I get where you're going, you can't rely on people's self-description, of course you can't. Hence the common trope of "The Nazis were really socialists" which is bollocks. But that applies similarly to "anti-antifa" - scratch the surface and you find far-right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Monday, March 8, 2021, 12:42:12
That's not true. Antifa is just a name, you can oppose the way they conduct themselves and/or doubt that they really do embody the values that the name suggests that they do. That wouldn't make you a fascist. That would just make you unconvinced they represent who they say they represent
 
No grey areas are allowed any more. If you're not for something then you're against it. Actually, if you're not vocal in support of something, you're against it. That's the age we live in. Everything is dichotomous.
It's easier that way to demonise and label those with different opinions.No need to try and win any arguments when the opposing view is held by idiots.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Hunk on Monday, March 8, 2021, 12:53:16
Etymologically speaking yes. But all the people I have seen describing themselves as "anti-antifa", it's just a case of simplifying the fraction.

I expect an awful lot of people are deeply unimpressed with what they know about antifa. I'm not an expert, far from it, and I'm willing to be educated on the good that they do. But I've seen them involved in way too many violent protests to just assume that because they call themselves anti-fascist they really are.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Hunk on Monday, March 8, 2021, 13:01:20
No grey areas are allowed any more. If you're not for something then you're against it. Actually, if you're not vocal in support of something, you're against it. That's the age we live in. Everything is dichotomous.
It's easier that way to demonise and label those with different opinions.No need to try and win any arguments when the opposing view is held by idiots.

Completely agree


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, March 8, 2021, 13:29:46
Perfectly sensible. I get where you're going, you can't rely on people's self-description, of course you can't. Hence the common trope of "The Nazis were really socialists" which is bollocks. But that applies similarly to "anti-antifa" - scratch the surface and you find far-right.
Think this all depends from where one's politics start.

Never heard of anti antifa but I would hazard a guess that they are the opposite of antifa.  far right v far left.

Most in the middle and even on the right are anti fascist but wary that antifa is much, much lefter than mere opposition to fascism.

Ditto my impression has been that right wing normally equals a belief in liberal capitalism.  Many unpleasant right wing movements can be more left wing in their economic beliefs, whilst authoritarian and certainly nationalist.  Such as Le Pen in France.

I think left and right can be social and economic and people can fall into different quadrants.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Broadbents Tackle on Monday, March 8, 2021, 14:39:41
Perfectly sensible. I get where you're going, you can't rely on people's self-description, of course you can't. Hence the common trope of "The Nazis were really socialists" which is bollocks. But that applies similarly to "anti-antifa" - scratch the surface and you find far-right.

The problem with that is it has the same effect as saying everyone who voted brexit is a racist. It just pushes people away.

I've always been strongly anti-racist and anti-fascist, but I can't stand antifa or those who share similar ideologies(I'm not a fan of the word woke either, there's just no other group name for them). In fact, I think they are enemies of equality, albeit they come with good intentions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, March 8, 2021, 14:49:18
I've always been strongly anti-racist and anti-fascist, but I can't stand antifa or those who share similar ideologies(I'm not a fan of the word woke either, there's just no other group name for them).

Is there an ideology?

This seems to be falling into the trap much loved and peddled by the right wing media that suggests that Antifa (and similarly BLM and in fact at times ER (so basically any of the population they don't like)) is/are some sort of collective group with a leadership and set/chosen ideology, i.e. that they are some sort of collective organisation, they are not in any way, the are fluid loose collections of people who share similar ideals and objectives.

Sadly its become easier to just lump them all together as bad, like its become the fashion to suggest anyone who gives a shit about anyone else is 'woke', lazy stereotyping driven by the media, but sadly adopted which aids the ridiculous culture war narrative they desperately need.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Broadbents Tackle on Monday, March 8, 2021, 15:28:19
Is there an ideology?

 

Belief in things like this, or other such theories that seek to define us by our differences rather than our commonalities.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

Maybe people are attacked and called woke simply for being alert to racism and social injustice, but that's not my experience of it. It's mostly confined to twitter and educational establishments, though it's becoming more prevalent in my opinion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 8, 2021, 15:43:19
The problem with that is it has the same effect as saying everyone who voted brexit is a racist. It just pushes people away.

I've always been strongly anti-racist and anti-fascist, but I can't stand antifa or those who share similar ideologies(I'm not a fan of the word woke either, there's just no other group name for them). In fact, I think they are enemies of equality, albeit they come with good intentions.
I was talking about those who explicitly define themselves as anti-antifa, the likes of Andy Ngo. Obviously it's perfectly possible for people who aren't far right to have qualms about or be opposed to the methods deployed by groups describing themselves as antifa (or more often who are described by others as such).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, March 8, 2021, 15:52:01
Belief in things like this, or other such theories that seek to define us by our differences rather than our commonalities.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

Maybe people are attacked and called woke simply for being alert to racism and social injustice, but that's not my experience of it. It's mostly confined to twitter and educational establishments, though it's becoming more prevalent in my opinion.


One would imagine that being alert to racism and social injustice becoming more prevalent would be a good thing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 8, 2021, 15:52:15
I expect an awful lot of people are deeply unimpressed with what they know about antifa. I'm not an expert, far from it, and I'm willing to be educated on the good that they do. But I've seen them involved in way too many violent protests to just assume that because they call themselves anti-fascist they really are.
Who are the "them" you have seen involved? I'm guessing you've seen news reports or stuff on twitter showing people dressed in black acting violently who are then casually described as antifa whether or not they so describe themselves or are part of any active antifa group. There's no national or international "anitfa" organisation, any more than there is BLM, there are local groups who organise against fascism, some of whom call themselves antifa. But not every active anti-fascist corresponds to the stereotype, and not everyone you see behaving violently is necessarily the aggressor. It's one of the things the Proud Boys were very good at, violently attacking counter demos and getting their victims arrested. Famously, there were 8 anti-fascists demonstrating at a neo-Nazi rally in California who were attacked stabbed and vicsiouly beaten by fascists and then arrested and prosecuted by CHP. There was much of the same at the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" rally where an antifascist protestor was murdered by a Nazi terrorist - more anti-fascists than Nazis arrested that day and famously led to Trump's comment of "good people on both sides".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Hunk on Monday, March 8, 2021, 16:39:50
Who are the "them" you have seen involved? I'm guessing you've seen news reports or stuff on twitter showing people dressed in black acting violently who are then casually described as antifa whether or not they so describe themselves or are part of any active antifa group. There's no national or international "anitfa" organisation, any more than there is BLM, there are local groups who organise against fascism, some of whom call themselves antifa. But not every active anti-fascist corresponds to the stereotype, and not everyone you see behaving violently is necessarily the aggressor. It's one of the things the Proud Boys were very good at, violently attacking counter demos and getting their victims arrested. Famously, there were 8 anti-fascists demonstrating at a neo-Nazi rally in California who were attacked stabbed and vicsiouly beaten by fascists and then arrested and prosecuted by CHP. There was much of the same at the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" rally where an antifascist protestor was murdered by a Nazi terrorist - more anti-fascists than Nazis arrested that day and famously led to Trump's comment of "good people on both sides".

I hear you and I’ll look deeper into it. I’m sure that there are those that label themselves as antifa but don’t condone the violence that I’ve, perhaps in my ignorance, come to associate with the word. And I am aware that they are considered a decentralised collective of people/groups who may have different ideologies but loosely unite under the same banner. For me, I’ve always been wary of labels as it’s too easy to be lumped in with the undesirables who share enough of your beliefs to unite under a banner but can also hold beliefs diametrically contrary to your own. I’m not sure what’s wrong with just calling yourself ‘anti-fascist’.

And yes, the news reports of black clad, face covered thugs is what I’m basing my opinion on. If they don’t represent what antifa means then I’ll be happy to change my views. Unfortunately for anyone labelling themselves as antifa there’s already quite a widespread perception of them as being involved in radical left wing, anarchistic unrest. Even if that perception is unfair, it’s still the perception.

Will do more research. Promise


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, March 8, 2021, 17:19:35
...explicitly define themselves as anti-antifa, the likes of Andy Ngo.

Sorry had to point this out. I find it interesting and sadly ironic that Andy Ngo has a surname that quite literally is the acronym for Non-Governmental Organisation. Shame his "work" is anything but that. The tosspot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Broadbents Tackle on Monday, March 8, 2021, 17:29:45
One would imagine that being alert to racism and social injustice becoming more prevalent would be a good thing.

Yeah, because in the context of everything I've been saying that's clearly what I was referring to. What's the point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 8, 2021, 23:12:37
I hear you and I’ll look deeper into it. I’m sure that there are those that label themselves as antifa but don’t condone the violence that I’ve, perhaps in my ignorance, come to associate with the word. And I am aware that they are considered a decentralised collective of people/groups who may have different ideologies but loosely unite under the same banner. For me, I’ve always been wary of labels as it’s too easy to be lumped in with the undesirables who share enough of your beliefs to unite under a banner but can also hold beliefs diametrically contrary to your own. I’m not sure what’s wrong with just calling yourself ‘anti-fascist’.

And yes, the news reports of black clad, face covered thugs is what I’m basing my opinion on. If they don’t represent what antifa means then I’ll be happy to change my views. Unfortunately for anyone labelling themselves as antifa there’s already quite a widespread perception of them as being involved in radical left wing, anarchistic unrest. Even if that perception is unfair, it’s still the perception.
That's a fair point, especially what's wrong with calling yourself "anti-fascist". I guess because that's what antifa always meant, always stood for, going back to the 90s, it's only comparatively recently it's been changed to the specific association with "black clad thugs" (we're all face covered these days!) that you were referring to. Set against that, if that is the general perception these days then those who choose to label themselves explicitly antifa could perhaps be accused of deliberately seeking to align themselves with that end of things? I'm just very wary because it's used as a generic smear by association by the far-right and far-right media such as Fox - antifa=violent anarchists; anyone who calls themselves antifascists, irrespective of methods = antifa; therefore anyone who opposes us are violent antifa scum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 9, 2021, 14:54:49
Johnson's "Global Britain" defence review will slash the size of the army and move focus away from Europe to focus instead on Asia, to the despair of our NATO allies. Putin's disappointment at losing his asset in the Whitehouse must be offset by the way his asset in No 10 is earning his crust.

https://www.ft.com/content/4a002266-21ee-495e-83c6-7baeebffdd52

But don't worry about our economy being trashed and our national security being sold down the river because some minor celeb's done an interview that caused some jumped up fucking newsreader to have a strop. Truly we get the govt we deserve


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, March 11, 2021, 18:30:49
If you're OK with this, you need to ask yourself why.  Tory corruption in public view.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/11/covid-test-kit-supplier-joked-matt-hancock-whatsapp-never-heard-of-him-alex-bourne

In more normal times, Hancock would have resigned by now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, March 11, 2021, 18:52:51
If you're OK with this, you need to ask yourself why.  Tory corruption in public view.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/11/covid-test-kit-supplier-joked-matt-hancock-whatsapp-never-heard-of-him-alex-bourne

In more normal times, Hancock would have resigned by now.

Don’t panic, you can vote them out in nine years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Thursday, March 11, 2021, 18:55:32
The problem is that there is absolutely no accountability whatsoever, they can take the piss and get away with it - and in the end people forget such things happened because so much of it has gone on in Corona time. If somebody started a list of fuck-ups/corrupt actions at the start of the pandemic and continued with it, I am sure there is a hell of a lot whereby we would think "oh goodness, I had forgotten about that"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, March 11, 2021, 18:58:41
How anyone is ok with voting Tory lately or in my lifetime is beyond me. They've always been cunts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, March 11, 2021, 19:06:16
How anyone is ok with voting Tory lately or in my lifetime is beyond me.


Because but Corbyn


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Thursday, March 11, 2021, 19:07:04
How anyone is ok with voting Tory lately or in my lifetime is beyond me. They've always been cunts.

As are the momentum faction of labour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, March 11, 2021, 19:27:14
The problem is that there is absolutely no accountability whatsoever, they can take the piss and get away with it - and in the end people forget such things happened because so much of it has gone on in Corona time. If somebody started a list of fuck-ups/corrupt actions at the start of the pandemic and continued with it, I am sure there is a hell of a lot whereby we would think "oh goodness, I had forgotten about that"

Hear, hear. Just like when ‘New Labour’ had the political system by the balls for all those years. But, but, but, that was those warm cozy fuzzy cuddly socialists. Get real, read publications like private eye, the spectator you’ll find out all sorts of shit from both sides of the HOC & the HOL,those with money, power and influence, they’re all at it. You don’t need to be in power....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, March 11, 2021, 19:58:35
As are the momentum faction of labour.

They've not been in government and are a relatively new group unless I'm mistaken.
You're entitled to your opinion though same as anyone else.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ticker45 on Thursday, March 11, 2021, 20:25:00
...........those with money, power and influence..............

And that can be said for any country in the world.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 11, 2021, 20:39:36
Because but Corbyn

And literally in the next post....
As are the momentum faction of labour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 11, 2021, 20:50:29
Hear, hear. Just like when ‘New Labour’ had the political system by the balls for all those years. But, but, but, that was those warm cozy fuzzy cuddly socialists. Get real, read publications like private eye, the spectator you’ll find out all sorts of shit from both sides of the HOC & the HOL,those with money, power and influence, they’re all at it. You don’t need to be in power....
There has never been a govt as corrupt as this one, of any political stripe.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, March 11, 2021, 21:02:00
There has never been a govt as corrupt as this one, of any political stripe.

Yes, yes of course comrade, nothing as corrupt as the EU I think you mean 😉


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, March 11, 2021, 21:03:34
Yes, yes of course comrade.
It's not primarily a party political point. I'd have the Thatcher govt back over this lot: didn't like them, but they weren't openly contemptuous of the law, parliament and democracy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Thursday, March 11, 2021, 21:10:23
It's not primarily a party political point. I'd have the Thatcher govt back over this lot: didn't like them, but they weren't openly contemptuous of the law, parliament and democracy.
I think the miners might disagree


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, March 11, 2021, 23:08:30
It's not primarily a party political point. I'd have the Thatcher govt back over this lot: didn't like them, but they weren't openly contemptuous of the law, parliament and democracy.

I’ll get the tissues. Pallet be enough?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Friday, March 12, 2021, 01:17:04
tissues for issues


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, March 12, 2021, 07:31:12
I’ll get the tissues. Pallet be enough?
openly contemptuous of the law, parliament and democracy

That contempt is more notably shown by authoritarians of left and right.  

Thankfully, imo, more so elsewhere in the World.  Paul is of course right.

Order without law is not the British way.



 



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, March 12, 2021, 07:57:41
openly contemptuous of the law, parliament and democracy

That contempt is more notably shown by authoritarians of left and right.  

Thankfully, imo, more so elsewhere in the World.  Paul is of course right.

Order without law is not the British way.





 



Shall I order another pallet?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 12, 2021, 08:26:36
And yet again Legends Lounger consistently fails to engage in any debate, just snark and smirking. Point stands, this is the most corrupt, incompetent and undemocratic govt this country has seen in modern times.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Banker on Friday, March 12, 2021, 10:25:12
And yet again Legends Lounger consistently fails to engage in any debate, just snark and smirking. Point stands, this is the most corrupt, incompetent and undemocratic govt this country has seen in modern times.

Intesting to compare and contrast the response in Germany to allegations of Conservative CDU corruption i.e backhanders for procuring masks etc.

Bundestag lifting immunity to search offices...calls for resignation from leading Conservatives...Parliamentary demands for a formal declaration from each CDU rep that they haven't profited from the pandemic...resignation by one accused for not meeting the 'special moral duty'.....all resulting in Conservative support slipping in at least two states.

Meanwhile....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mister Lorenzo on Friday, March 12, 2021, 10:59:06
And yet again Legends Lounger consistently fails to engage in any debate, just snark and smirking. Point stands, this is the most corrupt, incompetent and undemocratic govt this country has seen in modern times.
I would say on a par with Tony Blair's Labour party taking us to war on a lie resulting in 1,000's of deaths, which you so conveniently forget about!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, March 12, 2021, 11:15:40
And yet again Legends Lounger consistently fails to engage in any debate, just snark and smirking. Point stands, this is the most corrupt, incompetent and undemocratic govt this country has seen in modern times.

There is no point. You’ll not change my mind and I’ll not change yours. You’re on here time and time again with your other lefty followers bitching about anything remotely associated with the Conservative party. To the point I rarely bother to read this page, honestly. I have better things to do with my life. I’m not as heavily invested in politics to the point of anal micro analysis like you are. Once you accept that politics is a dirty business and like any organisation there are those who are fully invested and in it for the greater good, (public or private) and then there are those who are on the make the easier your life will be. I accept that my political preference is at right angles to yours and 99% who post on this thread but like Red says in the Shawshank redemption, I don’t give a shit. The exception is your comment which you have made a number times so this is to clarify my position.

I take comfort that my politics are in the majority nationally. Regarding the corrupt, inwardly & incestuously protectionist EU also in the majority. By the time Labour get back in the shit I do not give will be bigger.

The status quo was, is and always will be the status quo. You’ll no doubt carry on your bitching and try to goad me into by slagging me off, however, you’d be better off spending your time posting up coming council election leaflets through letter boxes, mine will be used as kindling for my BBQ, that’s all of them BTW.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, March 12, 2021, 11:24:03
I realised years ago that politics isn’t for the likes of us - unless you’re (not you personally, the collective you) prepared to get your hands dirty.

Politics is just a mirror image of society - corrupt, greedy, mostly incompetent, patronising, self serving.

No matter the hue.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Friday, March 12, 2021, 11:30:09
Absolutely love that phrase,  anal micro analysis.

It's actually true that there are so many people these days who are like this and whatever you post on social media have to read so deep into every word, not you Pauld as such but I do love the phrase


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Friday, March 12, 2021, 12:12:49
I love a good political dingdong because I am willing to change my mind on stuff. I mean it's unlikely with the shit you lot spout, but sometimes one of you comes up with something inciteful.

If your views are so entrenched that you will never change them then: A) They are meaningless and B) You are a dick.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 12, 2021, 12:29:17
I would say on a par with Tony Blair's Labour party taking us to war on a lie resulting in 1,000's of deaths, which you so conveniently forget about!
Not at all, I've consistently criticised the war criminal Blair (and described him as such) for precisely this


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, March 12, 2021, 12:37:09
Expect more announcements next week, as the Government is due to receive a Report expected to abet its plans to hand pick our presently still independent Judiciary.

The separation of powers between Executive, Legislative and Judiciary has been the foundation of most liberal democracies, notably the USA's.  Any moves by the Government to rig our judiciary will undermine rather than enhance the functioning of our democracy.

This is not a matter of left or right.  So envelope stuffing misses the point.  

IMO, the question is do we wish to follow the Trumpian direction of picking judges for their politics and of contesting election results so that control of the law is concentrated in the few.

Or do we wish the Government to have a program of laws, parliament to debate and pass them and independent judges to apply them?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 12, 2021, 12:40:46
You’re on here time and time again with your other lefty followers bitching about anything remotely associated with the Conservative party.
You're taking this as party political. It's not. I'd happily take a competent, honest Tory govt over this lot and referenced your hero Maggie in that regard. They're not even Conservatives in any meaningful sense of the word, any more than Trump is. They are plumbing new depths of corruption and with it overturning institutions and conventions that are cornerstones of democracy and the rule of law to do so. In much the same way Trump did in the US, it is an attack on democracy in this country and a unique threat in a way that previous administrations, Tory or otherwise, have not been and it is completely antithetical to the traditions of the Conservative party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 12, 2021, 12:55:01
Expect more announcements next week, as the Government is due to receive a Report expected to abet its plans to hand pick our presently still independent Judiciary.

The separation of powers between Executive, Legislative and Judiciary has been the foundation of most liberal democracies, notably the USA's.  Any moves by the Government to rig our judiciary will undermine rather than enhance the functioning of our democracy.

This is not a matter of left or right.  So envelope stuffing misses the point. 

IMO, the question is do we wish to follow the Trumpian direction of picking judges for their politics and of contesting election results so that control of the law is concentrated in the few.

Or do we wish the Government to have a program of laws, parliament to debate and pass them and independent judges to apply them?
Thank you, you've expressed far better than I could the thrust of what I was getting at in terms of why this govt is a unique threat. I'd add to that the persistent lying to parliament and refusal to correct the record undermines any concept of accountability, again a key cornerstone of the system.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 12, 2021, 13:07:35
I would say on a par with Tony Blair's Labour party taking us to war on a lie resulting in 1,000's of deaths, which you so conveniently forget about!

I think it's a sign of how polarised the political discourse has become that some assume you can't rail against corruption in the Tory party and also castigate Tony Blair & his Labour govt for taking the country in to an illegal war in 2003.  It's not either/or.

Political positions can be so entrenched that folk often cling to their political allegiances in the same way they would a footballing allegiance.  And it shouldn't be that way.  My devotion to STFC is unconditional...even now.  But I will switch (& have switched in the past) from one political party to another when my feelings or motivations change.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 12, 2021, 13:13:59
I would say on a par with Tony Blair's Labour party taking us to war on a lie resulting in 1,000's of deaths, which you so conveniently forget about!

Tony Blair (who I have zero time for) led a government that took us war, following a vote in parliament, which you conveniently forget Conservative MP's voted in favour of.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, March 12, 2021, 13:17:04
I've noticed that people who engage in black and white thinking tend to assume everybody else does as well. Some actually get quite confused when other people don't think the same way.

Oh, and I'm another Tory-basher who would be happy to see Blair thrown in jail.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Friday, March 12, 2021, 13:31:20
Could somebody name me the last government that acted with integrity and in the interests of the people. I'm 59 and I can't think of one. Audrey nails it in his previous comments.
This one is probably the worst but Thatcher should have been jailed for the way she dealt with the miners.
Also, on Blair. I'm in the minority who think he was the one keeping bush on a leash waiting for the UN to act. When they didn't, off came the leash. I genuinely think Bush listened to Blair.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, March 12, 2021, 13:41:11
Could somebody name me the last government that acted with integrity and in the interests of the people. I'm 59 and I can't think of one. Audrey nails it in his previous comments.
This one is probably the worst but Thatcher should have been jailed for the way she dealt with the miners.
Also, on Blair. I'm in the minority who think he was the one keeping bush on a leash waiting for the UN to act. When they didn't, off came the leash. I genuinely think Bush listened to Blair.

I guess the problem is that any government that stays in power for any length of time does so many things that there'll always be some bad things and people fixate on those to the exclusion of anything they did that was good. I won't defend the Iraq War (or PFI...), but Blair's government also brought in the minimum wage, independence for the Bank of England, SureStart and plenty of good. Cameron got the Conservative party to pass equal marriage and then fucked it by getting far to into austerity. Even this Government, who might be the most risible of my lifetime, have done some good things.

But nuance is not the way of the modern world. I'd take an "80% of stuff I agree with" government any day, but it seems many (or at least, a very vocal minority) want their perfect candidate or bust.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 12, 2021, 13:42:17
Could somebody name me the last government that acted with integrity and in the interests of the people. I'm 59 and I can't think of one. Audrey nails it in his previous comments.
No I'm sorry but this "Oooh, they're all as bad as each other" horseshit is how Trump got away with so much of his criminality and precisely what this govt is relying on in plumbing new depths of corruption and assaults on democracy. This is much worse than anything we have seen before, whether it's the blatant lying to parliament, the deliberate and continual flouting of the law, the assaults on the judiciary and freedom of the press, the attacks on the right to protest and the deliberate undermining of the concept of truth. Shit like this "Oooh, they're all at it" is what legitimises it all, and it's what they're relying on to keep getting away with it and pushing further still. Stop excusing it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: joeydubya on Friday, March 12, 2021, 13:54:37
People may or may not have liked Corbyn and his cabinet, but he did a much better job of holding Cameron, May and Johnson to account. The reason why we have such brazen, apparent corruption is that the current opposition would rather score own goals in the vain dream that they might appeal to Conservative swing voters and media.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, March 12, 2021, 13:55:24
I would say on a par with Tony Blair's Labour party taking us to war on a lie resulting in 1,000's of deaths, which you so conveniently forget about!

Do you believe it would have been a different outcome under a Tory government? I would bet everything I own that they'd have done the same thing or very similar. Not excusing it, but don't think your point is relevant.

Edit..just seen Horlocks post in response to the above I've quoted. I agree with him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Friday, March 12, 2021, 13:57:36
The last couple of pages have reminded me as to why I try to stay away from this thread, especially when it's gets to the name calling school ground stuff.

And I have voted for Labour and conservative over the past 3 or 4 elections based on their policies at the time..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Friday, March 12, 2021, 14:15:51
No I'm sorry but this "Oooh, they're all as bad as each other" horseshit is how Trump got away with so much of his criminality and precisely what this govt is relying on in plumbing new depths of corruption and assaults on democracy. This is much worse than anything we have seen before, whether it's the blatant lying to parliament, the deliberate and continual flouting of the law, the assaults on the judiciary and freedom of the press, the attacks on the right to protest and the deliberate undermining of the concept of truth. Shit like this "Oooh, they're all at it" is what legitimises it all, and it's what they're relying on to keep getting away with it and pushing further still. Stop excusing it.
I'm not excusing it but trying to out it into context. I agree they're corrupt but so are big corporations etc. So are other countries governments. They are not one corrupt group of people in a world of virtue and goodness.
We can hold them to account at the next election. If they're not held to account then either the opposition have done a shit job or people don't give a fuck. If it's the latter it's still democracy in action. We get the government's we deserve.
You'd have thought given the levels of corruption it wouldn't be too difficult to hold them to account but it seems so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 12, 2021, 14:40:46
I'm not excusing it but trying to out it into context. I agree they're corrupt but so are big corporations etc. So are other countries governments. They are not one corrupt group of people in a world of virtue and goodness.
No-one is saying that. But we have laws for a reason. We have a parliament for a reason. We have an independent judiciary for a reason. Just throwing your arms up in the air and going "Oh, well they're all as bad as each other" normalises the excesses. Keep doing that and it undermines the rule of law and the foundations of democracy, and then you won't get the option to chuck them out at elections.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Friday, March 12, 2021, 14:46:05
No-one is saying that. But we have laws for a reason. We have a parliament for a reason. We have an independent judiciary for a reason. Just throwing your arms up in the air and going "Oh, well they're all as bad as each other" normalises the excesses. Keep doing that and it undermines the rule of law and the foundations of democracy, and then you won't get the option to chuck them out at elections.
I apologise for undermining the rule of law and the foundations of democracy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 12, 2021, 14:50:44
I apologise for undermining the rule of law and the foundations of democracy.
Again, not saying that. But you know that. OK so you're happy with (or at least complacent about) a govt that normalises corruption, undermining the rule of law, and attacks on the judiciary because other govts have been a bit shit. What I'm saying it's dangerous to be complacent about this, that it's different from the being shit that we've seen before and that what they're doing fundamentally undermines the mechanisms you're relying on to hold them accountable. It is not Conservatism, it is Trumpism.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Friday, March 12, 2021, 16:02:55
Again, not saying that. But you know that. OK so you're happy with (or at least complacent about) a govt that normalises corruption, undermining the rule of law, and attacks on the judiciary because other govts have been a bit shit. What I'm saying it's dangerous to be complacent about this, that it's different from the being shit that we've seen before and that what they're doing fundamentally undermines the mechanisms you're relying on to hold them accountable. It is not Conservatism, it is Trumpism.
Nope not happy but not prepared to do anything other than vote them out. I'm working on the basis that when it comes to legalities etc the opposition leader is in a better place to first of all understand fully the issues given his background and secondly to galvanise opinion behind them. If they can't do that then there will be no change. Opposition parties need to call out and then communicate effectively to the electorate, no opposition parties can do this currently.
If they get democratically voted in again then tough shit. I think it was Churchill said democracy is the worst form of government until you consider the others.
Basically, democracy works best when you have a strong opposition. Ours are fucking useless. I hate the house of lords but with a big majority that are the best opposition normally....and i know they are full of cronies but both sides are equally to blame.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 12, 2021, 16:07:46
Nope not happy but not prepared to do anything other than vote them out. I'm working on the basis that when it comes to legalities etc the opposition leader is in a better place to first of all understand fully the issues given his background and secondly to galvanise opinion behind them. If they can't do that then there will be no change. Opposition parties need to call out and then communicate effectively to the electorate, no opposition parties can do this currently.
If they get democratically voted in again then tough shit. I think it was Churchill said democracy is the worst form of government until you consider the others.
Basically, democracy works best when you have a strong opposition. Ours are fucking useless. I hate the house of lords but with a big majority that are the best opposition normally....and i know they are full of cronies but both sides are equally to blame.

Things would improve hugely if the fucking Speaker did what he was supposed to do instead of purely making sure he gets his knighthood when his term ends!

Problem Labour have at the moment is that a) with vaccination going quite well Johnson is getting a bit of a bounce and b) they are basically facing two opponents at the moment with Rachel Swindon etc seeming happier to stir the shit rather than say anything about the Tories.

My one hope is that off the back of this weeks PMQ's Starmer starts using at least one question to list the lies and demand the record be corrected each week.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Friday, March 12, 2021, 16:11:36
Things would improve hugely if the fucking Speaker did what he was supposed to do instead of purely making sure he gets his knighthood when his term ends!

Problem Labour have at the moment is that a) with vaccination going quite well Johnson is getting a bit of a bounce and b) they are basically facing two opponents at the moment with Rachel Swindon etc seeming happier to stir the shit rather than say anything about the Tories.

My one hope is that off the back of this weeks PMQ's Starmer starts using at least one question to list the lies and demand the record be corrected each week.
The previous speaker was venerated by being totally biased.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 12, 2021, 16:13:12
The previous speaker was venerated by being totally biased.

Possibly so, but he would not have allowed a PM to lie incessantly with no reprimand whatsoever. There is some irony that we had a conservative speaker that the Tories hated and a labour one which they love.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 12, 2021, 16:15:48
Basically, democracy works best when you have a strong opposition. Ours are fucking useless.
Completely agree there. The press/broadcast media should also act as a check on govt. And ditto, failing to do their job. Finally, the courts and laws should act as a check on the unrestrained power of the executive. Which is why govt ignoring the law and attacking the courts is so dangerous. If parliament, the press and the courts cannot hold the govt to account, then there is no restraint on govt, and no accountability, as RedRag rightly pointed out. If that continues, the once every five years holding to account by the electorate is going to be little more than a rubber stamp. Because there'll always be a "But Corbyn...."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Friday, March 12, 2021, 16:45:05
I think you should write a strongly worded letter to Mr Buckland - that will tell them, Paul!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 12, 2021, 17:14:21
Completely agree there. The press/broadcast media should also act as a check on govt. And ditto, failing to do their job. Finally, the courts and laws should act as a check on the unrestrained power of the executive. Which is why govt ignoring the law and attacking the courts is so dangerous. If parliament, the press and the courts cannot hold the govt to account, then there is no restraint on govt, and no accountability, as RedRag rightly pointed out. If that continues, the once every five years holding to account by the electorate is going to be little more than a rubber stamp. Because there'll always be a "But Corbyn...."

Extreme governments of either wing (fascist/communist) are actually rather similar in their actions and can often be characterised by very similar traits, traits rather frighteningly this government is showing many of these, someone else has compiled the below...

Willful destruction of UK value to serve a "peoples collective" idea of dubious gain;

A casual disdain for small and large business, crippled with taxes;

Massive corruption of the state machine at every level of purchasing and procurement;

A politburo of non-entity underachieving apparatchiks whose only "achievement" is a complete lack of interest in evidence when it conflicts with The Party or self's goals, or just ignorant bias;

A figurehead half dead inept supreme leader, taking orders from the shady barons who are really in charge;

A media wholly owned by the Party's proxies, suppressing any difficult news, or, failing that, hacking tech, breaking privacy laws or ultimately fabricating news;

Active and aggressive threats to  neighbour states which do not share the ideology;

Orwellian levels of deception, misrepresentation and wild lies about those states created by the proxy media;

A mostly irrelevant "Parliament", there for window dressing, and to be ignored;

Crippling generational debt for 'state investments' with funds syphoned off to Party donors;

Absolute central control even when proven to be actively harmful to state or citizen;

The constant reference to bourgeoisie liberal elites who "levelled down" the hard-working proletariat;

Balkanisation of regions desperate to escape the corrupt centre, but held back, undemocratically, and against their will;

10s of thousands dead, not through natural causes or disease but through the negligence of those in authority who are accountable to no-one;

Politburo members planning to put themselves above the rule of law;

While removing the limited legal protections, we citizens have against the State machine;

Legalised state bribery (grants - see IMA NI) for politburo members & license to kill laws to be used by politburo at will;

A poitical fantasy of draconian powers of detention, investigation and mass incarceration;

Gestapo-like unreported legal changes, e.g. the State may now section you on the signature of just one (down from 2) doctors;
Your previous right to appeal has been REMOVED;
Your rights to be held for no longer than reasonable, gone;
You may now be locked up indefinitely at the whim of a host of local Government or Quango stooges;
And where do you appeal? Which court hears your case?
You don't and can't.
Priti Patel decides your fate (no joke)

A citizen may now be made stateless, not through principled review, nor legal determination, but at the whim of a political politburo member;

And anyone who dares speak up against this State of Total Alliegence? A traitor, a spy, doing the county down;

The opposition, an idea on which the mother of all Parliaments was built, the very reason the benches sit two sword lengths apart, is no more;

Ideas aren't scrutinised or examined;

Opponents are insulted: lacking in patriotism. Laws of massive import are waived unchecked;

Massive propaganda to support the irreconcilable contradictions of rhetoric
It's all about fish, yet fish rot
It's all about farmers, yet meat and crops rot
It's all about borders, yet borders are thrown open to a virus
It's all about NHS yet staff need to pay for visas.
It's all about sovereignty, yet sovereignty Parliament is disregarded and sidelines.
It's all about controlling money yet money is lower and falling
It's all about new trade yet deals are about getting us back to where we were already
And it's all about freedom and independence when we have never lived less free, been less able to control our destiny and are massively dependent on the Global Science community supporting or vaccines
(Even if Government would have you believe we made ours alone in a field)

And why the levelling down of achievements of previous generations while corruption is levelled up.
From right to buy to can never afford to buy a home
Expect a pension to expect not to retire
Jobs with benefits to jobs with no contracts and no rights
Life expectancy FALLING
Protections if you have cancer or otherwise become critically ill to fired after 3 months because you failed to attend work.
Erasmus to Turing. The providing of useful to the provision of the completely useless.
Levelling up or 350m a week for the NHS?
We're levelling down faster that ever before. While we take from the NHS.
But don't believe me, there's good data on this.
Most dead
Worst economy
Going backwards in levelling up, which should be impossible.
If all that wasn't enough, The Party plans voter registration and documentation;
to eliminate voting fraud which doesn't exist and ensure party loyalists can vote however and for whomever they wish, so long as it's for THE PARTY.

(Apologies for the formatting!)

FWIW I would not be surprised to see an election in the not too distant, the government is falling apart, Brexit is only going to get worse, Johnson has fucked that up, he is losing Scotland and NI. Brexit was Johnsons policy, he has staked his PMship on it and its going shite, if he resigns the party are still riven with cracks on Brexit so to replace him they need to get behind another avowed Brexiteer, not sure who that is, even an 80 majority doesn't work if the governing party cannot agree about anything.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Friday, March 12, 2021, 23:09:18
The previous speaker was venerated by being totally biased.

Totally? He was a tory.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Banker on Friday, March 19, 2021, 10:46:45
I reckon this is a quite brilliant analysis of our Glorious Leader.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/mar/18/all-hail-the-clown-king-how-boris-johnson-made-it-by-playing-the-fool


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Friday, March 19, 2021, 10:56:09
I also find it strange that the press don't jump on the "we want to make homes more affordable" tagline. In offering 5% mortgages, for example, they are not addressing the key issue/problem that the pay and rights of workers are seriously lacking. That is also what they should be looking at.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, March 19, 2021, 10:58:22
I also find it strange that the press don't jump on the "we want to make homes more affordable" tagline. In offering 5% mortgages, for example, they are not addressing the key issue/problem that the pay and rights of workers are seriously lacking. That is also what they should be looking at.


In order to be a member of "the press" you have to live in London and work for free for a few years at the start of your career.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Friday, March 19, 2021, 18:44:34
I'm a libertarian anarchist so any of you right wing cunts think you are right wing
.... no you fucking are not


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, March 27, 2021, 12:11:58
Is it currently legal for political parties to be out canvassing/leafletting for the upcoming May election during lockdown?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: STFC_Manc on Saturday, March 27, 2021, 12:16:01
Is it currently legal for political parties to be out canvassing/leafletting for the upcoming May election during lockdown?

I can't see why not? Assuming its done outside and in the right way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, April 7, 2021, 20:45:15
5th night of rioting by Loyalist mobs in Belfast, they've just set a bus on fire, with driver and passengers still on it. Not a peep out of all the people who were so upset by the protests in Bristol though.

https://twitter.com/trishdevlin/status/1379871010808270850


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, April 7, 2021, 20:49:14
I can't see why not? Assuming its done outside and in the right way.

Must be. Have a lovely glossy leaflet from PaulD over the weekend 😉 added it the kindling pile.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, April 7, 2021, 20:52:09
5th night of rioting by Loyalist mobs in Belfast, they've just set a bus on fire, with driver and passengers still on it. Not a peep out of all the people who were so upset by the protests in Bristol though.

https://twitter.com/trishdevlin/status/1379871010808270850
Of course, it's entirely coincidental that this rioting has broken out just a week or so after the DUP leadership met up with the Loyalist Community Council, the front organisation for the Loyalist terrorist gangs, to discuss their mutual "concern" over the NI Protocol in the Brexit deal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, April 7, 2021, 20:56:42
Of course, it's entirely coincidental that this rioting has broken out just a week or so after the DUP leadership met up with the Loyalist Community Council, the front organisation for the Loyalist terrorist gangs, to discuss their mutual "concern" over the NI Protocol in the Brexit deal.

Listening to Arleen Foster today my understand is it’s down to the two tier policing. Either way the island of Ireland is a seething cauldron waiting or any excuse to kick off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, April 7, 2021, 20:59:50
Listening to Arleen Foster today my understand is it’s down to the two tier policing. Either way the island of Ireland is a seething cauldron waiting or any excuse to kick off.
To paraphrase Christine Keeler "Well she would say that wouldn't she?" It was widely predicted that the NI Protocol could cause a resurgence of violence in the Loyalist gangs and it was dismissed as "Project Fear" in the rush to get Johnson's "oven ready" deal through.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Wednesday, April 7, 2021, 21:01:49
Where's Kevin Bamboo vanished to😳


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, April 7, 2021, 21:09:31
Where's Kevin Bamboo vanished to😳
Are you suggesting he's a Loyalist rioter? :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Wednesday, April 7, 2021, 21:11:44
Are you suggesting he's a Loyalist rioter? :)

No!! maybe he's got lost walking in the Scottish highlands😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, April 7, 2021, 21:40:02
To paraphrase Christine Keeler "Well she would say that wouldn't she?" It was widely predicted that the NI Protocol could cause a resurgence of violence in the Loyalist gangs and it was dismissed as "Project Fear" in the rush to get Johnson's "oven ready" deal through.

Nothing to do with the protocol, though you’d love to be to suit your storyline and pro EU stance. To with Catholics mass funeral attendances and marches afterwards, whereas not allowed by the unionists. As I said two tier policing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, April 8, 2021, 01:15:55
Of course, it's entirely coincidental that this rioting has broken out just a week or so after the DUP leadership met up with the Loyalist Community Council, the front organisation for the Loyalist terrorist gangs, to discuss their mutual "concern" over the NI Protocol in the Brexit deal.

Are you talking to yourself again?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 8, 2021, 07:19:30
Nothing to do with the protocol, though you’d love to be to suit your storyline and pro EU stance. To with Catholics mass funeral attendances and marches afterwards, whereas not allowed by the unionists. As I said two tier policing.
There's multiple causes, it's also not unconnected to police action against some former Loyalist crime gangs. Johnson promised no border down the Irish Sea and then promptly sold Unionists down the river (or the Irish Sea come to that). This is part of the inevitable backlash.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 8, 2021, 08:18:46
Nothing to do with the protocol, though you’d love to be to suit your storyline and pro EU stance. To with Catholics mass funeral attendances and marches afterwards, whereas not allowed by the unionists. As I said two tier policing.

It has everything to do with the NI Protocol.  And, of course, there are other factors at play as well, such as the Sinn Fein funeral thing.

These problems were flagged & widely predicted.  They're a direct consequence of the hard Brexit that Johnson pushed through - in full knowledge that this was incompatible with the GFA.  He's dealing with forces way bigger than he is, and either doesn't understand them or just doesn't care.  My money's on the latter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, April 8, 2021, 08:21:17
Nothing to do with the protocol, though you’d love to be to suit your storyline and pro EU stance. To with Catholics mass funeral attendances and marches afterwards, whereas not allowed by the unionists. As I said two tier policing.
Orange day parades last year say hello:

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/138AD/production/_113354008_shankill.jpg)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, April 8, 2021, 08:25:59
Nothing to do with the protocol, though you’d love to be to suit your storyline and pro EU stance. To with Catholics mass funeral attendances and marches afterwards, whereas not allowed by the unionists. As I said two tier policing.

It's got fuck all to do with Bobby Storey you melt. The violence is being fueled by Loyalist Paramilitaries who are having difficulty moving drugs between NI and the GB mainland - this is their main source of income. You can see it in the interviews the've done with the young lads involved. None of them even know who Bobby Storey is.

(https://i.redd.it/g67rr3dolwr61.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 8, 2021, 08:35:18
Nothing to do with the protocol, though you’d love to be to suit your storyline and pro EU stance. To with Catholics mass funeral attendances and marches afterwards, whereas not allowed by the unionists. As I said two tier policing.

Riiigghhtt, so the PSNI (which is just the RUC with a new name remember) who used to be accused on being loyalist have now become staunch republicans, I get ya. They cannot even say they weren't warned... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50157743

Yes there are multiple reasons, albeit the reason this has come to a head is in the main due to Brexit. Brexit was a destabilising blow against unionism* in Northern Ireland, which WAS balanced against nationalism by the GFA, the key driver in why the loyalists feel like they have been sold down the river and thus are so unhappy can be characterised by this.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EyZigysXMAImEOE?format=jpg&name=medium)

I see off the back of Arlene blaming Sinn Fein for attending a funeral, Kate Hoey is now wading it.

* Somewhat ironically about the only people who wanted Brexit in NI was, you guessed it, the Unionists!

I think we can add Northern Ireland to the list of places fucking off from Little England shortly now.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 8, 2021, 08:45:56

I think we can add Northern Ireland to the list of places fucking off from Little England shortly now.

It's remarkable the correlation between those who so vehemently wrap themselves in the Union Flag seem to care so little for the Union itself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 8, 2021, 08:49:04
In more cheery news, this is just grim reading https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/06/colleagues-leaving-nhs-government-betrayed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, April 8, 2021, 08:57:52
I'm really concerned with what is happening in Belfast currently. The brother-in-law lives in Donegal and is a Garda (policeman) in Letterkenny, which is one of the border towns very close to (London)Derry City and there is very likely to be tensions around there given what is happening.

I saw a couple of videos from Belfast last night and it appears to be 14-18 year olds wearing hoodies and balaclavas throwing petrol bombs at a bus whilst its driving down the road. You couldn't pay me enough money in the world to drive a bus in Belfast at the moment!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, April 8, 2021, 09:00:31
Belfast is crazy at the moment, Derry and NewtonAbbey not far behind. Most of my family have had the sense to move out of there, but there are a few still there in the more rural areas. Such a shame as it really is a beautiful place when the vocal minority are not causing problems.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, April 8, 2021, 09:01:05
It's sad. Northern Ireland is a lovely place, went to Belfast and drove up to the Giant's Causeway. Everyone I met was friendly.  :(


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 8, 2021, 09:08:18
I saw a couple of videos from Belfast last night and it appears to be 14-18 year olds wearing hoodies and balaclavas throwing petrol bombs at a bus whilst its driving down the road. You couldn't pay me enough money in the world to drive a bus in Belfast at the moment!

Just for the record, its now being reported that the drier was off the bus before it was petrol bombed and it was moving by momentum only, not aying it was right but thank christ the driver got off.

As for the rioters, as noted above the DUP met with paramilitary leaders a few weeks back, these being the same paramilitary groups who run the drugs trade over there and its being reported this morning that same are threatening to increase drug debts for anyone that refuses to riot. this has nothing to do with “not being heard”.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, April 8, 2021, 09:16:34
Ah that's a relief about the driver.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, April 10, 2021, 11:51:01
I bought the Daily Mirror, The Guardian and the I today 😉

Along with The Sun, D. Telegraph, D. Mail, D. Express, The Times and The D. Star. Only two more significant events to wait for and I’ll have a Panini style hat-rick to store away for my lads to fight over when I’m gone. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Saturday, April 10, 2021, 11:52:37
The uk really has become slightly less institutionally racist.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, April 11, 2021, 10:49:05
Corrupt and rotten to the core

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/david-cameron-lobbied-no-10-and-hancock-for-greensill-nht3x2c5z


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, April 11, 2021, 12:00:20
Corrupt and rotten to the core

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/david-cameron-lobbied-no-10-and-hancock-for-greensill-nht3x2c5z

Dreadful isn’t it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, April 14, 2021, 16:23:35
Priti Patel has just appointed as head of Counter Extremism a man who is a far-right extremist, with links to far right anti-Semitic, anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim hate groups in the US

https://bylinetimes.com/2021/04/13/new-government-counter-extremism-chiefs-ties-to-pro-trump-hate-groups/

Home Office quoted in the article as saying "Robin Simcox was appointed as interim Lead Commissioner, due to his wealth of expertise in the area of extremism". Erm, yeah, due to being one himself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Wednesday, April 14, 2021, 21:18:48

Nothing wrong with a far right extremist to counter balance the left wing extremists prevent in society (including this forum).

It’s amusing the rubbish you believe Paul 😂 our Priti will sort you c*nts out. All hail Priti 🤡



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, April 14, 2021, 21:21:38
Priti couldn't sort out her own show laces.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Wednesday, April 14, 2021, 21:41:19
How anyone is ok with voting Tory lately or in my lifetime is beyond me. They've always been cunts.

Because the alternative is a bigger bunch of cunts with captain hindsight’s crew which still reek of Corbyn’s communist lunatics and their constant divisive politics. Everything with the left is about race, sex, sexuality, gender etc. It’s just so tedious, and is the reason Labour won’t be in power for a very long period. The public gave Labour a huge kick in the nuts, and will continue to do so if they carry on with extreme left wing politics. Whilst cosmopolitan soy latté drinkers may vote labour, they aren’t appealing to the masses outside of these conurbations. Which is a relief.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Wednesday, April 14, 2021, 22:29:29
FUCK I wish I was that edgy


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, April 14, 2021, 22:31:12
FUCK I wish I was that edgy

Ha! Close the TEF. Brilliant :) In other news, you now owe me the best part of 8/10ths of a cup of tea!  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 08:10:23
I see Legends Lounge has remembered the password to his other account then


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 09:56:30
I see Legends Lounge has remembered the password to his other account then

I don’t remember anything your honour. So you cannot possibly see.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:36:08
Because the alternative is a bigger bunch of cunts with captain hindsight’s crew which still reek of Corbyn’s communist lunatics and their constant divisive politics. Everything with the left is about race, sex, sexuality, gender etc. It’s just so tedious, and is the reason Labour won’t be in power for a very long period. The public gave Labour a huge kick in the nuts, and will continue to do so if they carry on with extreme left wing politics. Whilst cosmopolitan soy latté drinkers may vote labour, they aren’t appealing to the masses outside of these conurbations. Which is a relief.

There's really no point in trying to reason with somebody who believes this. I'll just  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: at you instead.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:52:13
There's really no point in trying to reason with somebody who believes this. I'll just  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: at you instead.
I'm a labour voter but couldn't vote them under Corbyn. I actually agree with a lot of what hobodan says. They haven't represented the working man for a long time. The Tories don't either.
Starmer isn't the man to bring back the working class. I have a friend who knows him well and he says he is a top bloke who is honest and trustworthy. Unfortunately, he's not a leader.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:57:32
Extreme left? Communism? Come on it was drivel. Inaccurate drivel. Trying to improve working conditions and pay for workers yet not representing the working man. Give me a break



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 11:00:00
There's really no point in trying to reason with somebody who believes this. I'll just  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: at you instead.

The dudes posts are just recycled cliches from the more popular right wing bloggers. No original thoughts or sentiments, just general "HA! I've DEMASCULATED you!" shit. Soy boy, lovely bloke, crying, etc... Usually followed by "Yeah I would normally vote Labour but COMMUNISM". Never a labour voter but a show of insecurity at their own political beliefs.

Worthy of pity more than response. IIRC this was the dude who many years ago was on here begging for people to go to games with him so he's probs a bit of a loner. Loner males tend to end up being this way. And by me typing this he's got a bite so I guess I've probably made his day and he can go on about some more "liberal tears" stuff and claim a win.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 11:31:02
To be honest Tails, I think a lot of people go to matches on their own and begging people to go to a Town match is not uncommon. I couldn't even give away one of my JPT Final tickets and that's when Town were doing quite well! It's probably why some have kids or something...in the hope they have someone to take with them :)

If "hobodan" lives more locally to Swindon (North Wilts/South Gloucs) then something similar to above might apply but politically speaking, they are still a cunt :D


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 11:31:46
Extreme left? Communism? Come on it was drivel.

Rather depends where you are starting from yourself on the political spectrum.



Sent from my SM-A125F


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 11:33:07
The dudes posts are just recycled cliches from the more popular right wing bloggers. No original thoughts or sentiments, just general "HA! I've DEMASCULATED you!" shit. Soy boy, lovely bloke, crying, etc... Usually followed by "Yeah I would normally vote Labour but COMMUNISM". Never a labour voter but a show of insecurity at their own political beliefs.

Worthy of pity more than response. IIRC this was the dude who many years ago was on here begging for people to go to games with him so he's probs a bit of a loner. Loner males tend to end up being this way. And by me typing this he's got a bite so I guess I've probably made his day and he can go on about some more "liberal tears" stuff and claim a win.

SNOWFLAKE!!!


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 11:56:03
Rather depends where you are starting from yourself on the political spectrum.

Well said

I think I have said it before on here, but working with a lot of Americans it always makes me laugh how the Republicans/Right over there view the left/Democrats as Marxists/Communists.  As Manuel would say, "is crazy"

How you position the oppostion versus your views is a telling sign of how extreme you are on the poltical spectrum yourself.  I don't think the Tories are fascists - they are self serving cunt's absolutely, and the current state of populism/lack of accountablity is allowing them to get away with diabolical policies (evidence - for example absolutely everything that Priti Patel says and does) and are totally out of touch with reality (evidence - Rees-Mogg, Bullindgon Club Cronies, etc etc).  I'll let PaulD add to this list.

BUT - the fact I despise them doesn't make them fascists, nor does it make me a Commie.

And similarly Labour are indeed not faultless/perfect/whatever, but one thing for sure is that they are not Communists or Marxists or whatever - unless of course that is what your politics, views and (lack of) understanding of history tell you.

And finally - and I would ask a Mod to look at this - the Avatar Hobodan uses is grossly offensive in any context, even with a pathetic attempt at humour to justify it.  Sorry if that makes me a Snowflake, but I would rather be a snowflake than not object to that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 12:03:00
I'm pretty sure Hobodan was 'awarded' that avatar to be fair Chunky.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 12:06:19
I'm pretty sure Hobodan was 'awarded' that avatar to be fair Chunky.
No, he awarded it himself in protest at being described as being far right for, erm, posting lots of quite extreme far right stuff.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 12:15:12
No, he awarded it himself in protest at being described as being far right for, erm, posting lots of quite extreme far right stuff.

Oh right!! (not too far mind) Then I stand corrected.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 13:16:44
As much as Hobodan is a twat, there is little dispute about that, even his parents gave it to him as his middle name it was that obvious at birth, in this instance the twat raises some salient points (badly).

Not least that Labour have a problem, well. at least two big ones.

First, the Blair/Brown team eventually turned off the "common man" - your Bradford white males if you like.

Second, the person most likely to appeal to those, Corbyn, managed to freak the shit out of people in the more urban elite as being a bit too far left, while also pissing off the Bradford gang by not pushing for Brexit.

Since then, Labour has got a bit stuck chasing the same dream as the USA Democrats have recently clung to - a sort of "let us tell you what is good for you" communications style that does have a bit of overt focus on what would otherwise be fringe (but still on the right side of morality) policy issues.  I'd wager that if you put their policy messages, less any emotional faff, down on paper and didn't put a party name next to them, most of the voters who are keeping the Tories in power right now would actually agree with them.

As for Right and Left, the Tories, marginally, still believe in the NHS - the Democrats in the USA are not in agreement that Universal Healthcare is a necessary good for the Country, yet are labeled Commies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 13:34:56
As much as Hobodan is a twat, there is little dispute about that, even his parents gave it to him as his middle name it was that obvious at birth, in this instance the twat raises some salient points (badly).

Not least that Labour have a problem, well. at least two big ones.

First, the Blair/Brown team eventually turned off the "common man" - your Bradford white males if you like.

Second, the person most likely to appeal to those, Corbyn, managed to freak the shit out of people in the more urban elite as being a bit too far left, while also pissing off the Bradford gang by not pushing for Brexit.

Since then, Labour has got a bit stuck chasing the same dream as the USA Democrats have recently clung to - a sort of "let us tell you what is good for you" communications style that does have a bit of overt focus on what would otherwise be fringe (but still on the right side of morality) policy issues.  I'd wager that if you put their policy messages, less any emotional faff, down on paper and didn't put a party name next to them, most of the voters who are keeping the Tories in power right now would actually agree with them.

As for Right and Left, the Tories, marginally, still believe in the NHS - the Democrats in the USA are not in agreement that Universal Healthcare is a necessary good for the Country, yet are labeled Commies.

I notice Trudeau next door has taken a leaf out of the EU’s book and ignored their appalling vaccine rollout and tried to divert attention to a U.K. third wave and basically implying we’re fucked. 🤣🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 14:33:10
And finally - and I would ask a Mod to look at this - the Avatar Hobodan uses is grossly offensive in any context, even with a pathetic attempt at humour to justify it.  Sorry if that makes me a Snowflake, but I would rather be a snowflake than not object to that.

A fair point. I've deleted his avatar. If he puts it back I'll ban the cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 15:35:04
I think this is Jays only authority in life. I guess McDonald’s doesn’t give this snowflake soy boy fag the power he craves 😂

This forum is hilarious. It’s a bunch of effeminate little bitches rallying round to put their nose up PaulD’s communist arse. Banning me is the only power you have in life Jay, so fill your boots. I may still view for the left wing comedy show that is the TEF forum, the mob of 10 or so beta males patting each other on the back for being Antifa lite.

The irony is Swindon is far from a left leaning town. You are the minority here, we know how much you love minorities thought. I guess that draw of minority victim status is strong.

My predictions for the future.
PaulD has a stroke from the stress Brexit has bought him.
Jay comes out as gender fluid, but is later arrested on child porn charges.
RobT is pleased to be accepted into the club and puts a rainbow flag on his wall.
Derek Chauvin is acquitted, the TEF lefty crew go bananas 🍌

I am a National Socialist. And I would turn the gas on for you lefties 🖕🖕🖕



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 15:38:07
What a lovely chap.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 15:40:36
The nuttiness has shades of dossy!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 15:41:15
Sorry, I couldn’t help but smile, nah, I fucking laughed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 15:54:11
Das ist mein cat


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 16:00:10
Das ist mein cat

Nice try but if you're going to use another language at least do it fucking right.

"Dies ist meine Katze"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 16:02:21
You are only discriminating against me because of my skin colour. Racist c*nts you lefties are.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 16:12:53
the state of this thread!  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 16:59:34
It's funny because by the title of their "saved" jpgs, I know exactly the model of device Hobodan is using. Scary!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 18:14:54
I am a National Socialist. And I would turn the gas on for you lefties 🖕🖕🖕
Quoted in case of future debates about "irony"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 18:15:38
Has Hobodan lost his Britishness?  I ask because I thought the term Fag was very much an American put down?  I should know, I have used it a few times at work here when describing how those numbers were a bit of a Fag Packet exercise and nearly given a couple of old codgers heart attacks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 18:17:25
Sorry, I couldn’t help but smile, nah, I fucking laughed.
Hardly surprising, given you both sound exactly the same. That not concern you slightly?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 18:46:50
Quoted in case of future debates about "irony"

I thought socialism was your bag Paul? Strange how the tables have turned. As you don’t believe in borders, how can you be a supporter of the EU? You should probably make your mind up for goodness sake.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 18:51:03
What gender are you today Paul? A cisgender nonconforming non binary teen man child?
I can’t believe how times have changed, when did all these new genitals get invented?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 18:59:38
Big bad nasties are coming Paul.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 19:03:47
I knew your beloved EU were cahoots with those Israeli’s you despise.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 19:06:03
Loneliness is a terrible thing


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 19:06:44
Watch out Nasties, PaulD and his crew are coming for you!  :(


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 19:20:52
Have you been on the white lightning, hobo?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 19:40:35
I think this is Jays only authority in life. I guess McDonald’s doesn’t give this snowflake soy boy fag the power he craves 😂

This forum is hilarious. It’s a bunch of effeminate little bitches rallying round to put their nose up PaulD’s communist arse. Banning me is the only power you have in life Jay, so fill your boots. I may still view for the left wing comedy show that is the TEF forum, the mob of 10 or so beta males patting each other on the back for being Antifa lite.

The irony is Swindon is far from a left leaning town. You are the minority here, we know how much you love minorities thought. I guess that draw of minority victim status is strong.

My predictions for the future.
PaulD has a stroke from the stress Brexit has bought him.
Jay comes out as gender fluid, but is later arrested on child porn charges.
RobT is pleased to be accepted into the club and puts a rainbow flag on his wall.
Derek Chauvin is acquitted, the TEF lefty crew go bananas 🍌

I am a National Socialist. And I would turn the gas on for you lefties 🖕🖕🖕

Hope you start to feel better soon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Broadbents Tackle on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 19:44:45

I am a National Socialist.



You're a bedwetter.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Broadbents Tackle on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 19:45:53
A fair point. I've deleted his avatar. If he puts it back I'll ban the cunt.

Please don't ban him. I think he might be the last old school nutcase we have.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 19:58:10
Don't do drugs kids..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 20:01:44
Blimey. Someone needs his meds altering.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 20:04:50
Please ban him immediately.  He is a racist cunt. End of. His new avatar is the symbol of the British Union of Fascists.

Does anything else need to be said. I say again to the mods please ban the cunt for the sake of the TEF



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 20:13:05
Just to add, cos the cunt won't know, BUF were led by Oswald Mosely who Hitler considered to be the PM in the UK had Operation Sealion gone ahead and been successful. Oh, and for the sake of cunts who don't know their history, Sealion would never, ever have succeeded.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 20:17:45
He's about averagely right wing for the tef isn't he?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 20:59:28
Please ban him immediately.  He is a racist cunt. End of. His new avatar is the symbol of the British Union of Fascists.

Does anything else need to be said. I say again to the mods please ban the cunt for the sake of the TEF



Ban fascists but not communists? Surely we can have both ends of the spectrum? Or is your authoritarianism allowed but the other not? I wonder how many people have been killed by communism compared to fascism? I wonder who is more violent, Antifa or right wing groups?

You want me banned from a thread about ‘politics’ because you don’t agree with my ‘politics’? You find my ‘politics’ offensive? Do you think I don’t find your ‘politics’ offensive?
Living in an echo chamber really is no fun, and certainly not improving of ones mental faculties. Why else do you think i’m here? I need to see what’s going on in the leftie’s clown world occasionally so dip my toes.

Funny that a flag offends you. Yet I would bet a small fortune you are draped in the colours of degeneracy 🚩🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍🌈
What an intolerant arsehole you are!
And for what it’s worth, Oswald Mosley was right about somethings. Just like Islam is mostly right about women ofcourse.
Am I racist? Sure, I hate most white people (especially the lefty types who patronise black people and use them as their play thing, so that they can emit their signal of virtue to the world). I’m guessing you are also a ‘white knight’? Saviour of those poor little black people? I like to think black people are smart enough to look after themselves without whitey coming to the rescue. But then I don’t see them as inferior like you lefties do, you are just to stupid to not recognise your own racism.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 21:37:02
Not going to engage.

Mods - please do the the right thing.  This is extremism.  Extreme Left or Exteme Right it is abhorrent.  The Avatar says it all.

Oh - and as many people have already said Hobodan - you are a complete and utter racsist cunt.  You cannot hide behind a political postion when you are an abhorrent cunt.

And just to add - cunt.

EOM


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 21:40:58
Not going to engage.

Mods - please do the the right thing.  This is extremism.  Extreme Left or Exteme Right it is abhorrent.  The Avatar says it all.

Oh - and as many people have already said Hobodan - you are a complete and utter racsist cunt.  You cannot hide behind a political postion when you are an abhorrent cunt.

And just to add - cunt.

EOM

Is this a bit like your Antifa tricks where you stamp your feet and demand people act because your precious feelings are hurt? I’m so sorry sweety, have a tissue.

Would you prefer I change my Avatar to something more to your taste? I’ll see what I can do sausage x



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 21:43:22
Not EOM

Just saw this from the horrible cunt

"I am a National Socialist. And I would turn the gas on for you lefties 🖕🖕🖕1"

Reallly.  I mean really.  I wonder if the mods know who this is via an email account linked to his/her TEF account.  Put simply - this is hate crime.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 21:51:59
Not EOM

Just saw this from the horrible cunt

"I am a National Socialist. And I would turn the gas on for you lefties 🖕🖕🖕1"

Reallly.  I mean really.  I wonder if the mods know who this is via an email account linked to his/her TEF account.  Put simply - this is hate crime.  

Oh come on, I just want to keep you warm in the winter 😂

I think it’s fair to say we have found the TEF’s biggest snowflake ❄️


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 21:56:32
And we have found the TEF's only Fascist/Rascist.  Please Mods, do your stuff.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 21:58:08
And we have found the TEF's only Fascist/Rascist.  Please Mods, do your stuff.

Socialism isn’t your thing either? And you don’t believe in border as well? Bizarre

Hey, I’ve been a member since 2007!! You can’t turn on me now sonny, I know my rights. You are discriminating against me because I’m black. You fecking racist areshole you. How dare you, bigot!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 22:07:38
F*ck this I’m phoning the cops right now. I don’t have to put up with left wing racism. Bastards! My skin is my skin, it’s an immutable characteristic. Stop pretending you are doing this because I’m right wing. You are doing this because I’m black. Stinking white knighty bastard brains. I will piss the name Mosley on your great great great grandpapa’s grave.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobodan on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 22:16:22
Hey Hunkychair. Mama always said never go to sleep on an argument.

I will be the bigger man and make up. I have bought some of your favourite flavoured soup as a gift. Gets stuck in big boy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 22:50:48
I will piss the name Mosley on your great great great grandpapa’s grave.

Delightful - sleep well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 22:54:22
It's always those with extreme political views that shout the loudest, leaving us normal middle of the road people hating politics.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Thursday, April 15, 2021, 22:58:38
Hey 4D - I like to think I am middle of the road, but earlier posts suggesting (edit - aimed at Hobodan)  the BUF were great and for FFS gasssing folks is right is beyond any rational comprehension.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, April 16, 2021, 06:25:54
It's always those with extreme political views that shout the loudest, leaving us normal middle of the road people hating politics.

Ain't that the truth.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Friday, April 16, 2021, 06:36:11
What's 'normal'?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, April 16, 2021, 07:59:20
What's 'normal'?

Not having extreme political leanings. I'd have thought you'd have been clever enough to work that out? My mistake.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, April 16, 2021, 07:59:35
In other news, Matt Hancock is a corrupt cunt cashing in on NHS contracts amongst other wrongdoings.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Friday, April 16, 2021, 08:13:39
Not having extreme political leanings. I'd have thought you'd have been clever enough to work that out? My mistake.

Ok, that's helpful clarification. Many thanks


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, April 16, 2021, 08:19:50
Not having extreme political leanings. I'd have thought you'd have been clever enough to work that out? My mistake.

Define what you perceive as "extreme political leanings" please. I ask because what you think is extreme someone else may not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, April 16, 2021, 08:20:30
He was either absolutely plastered last night or I genuinely think Hobodan might actually have issues (no shit sherlock!). Looking back on his earlier posts he came across relatively pleasant. Decent football conversation and even showed a passion in photography. This appeared to change after some terror incidents, the EU vote and the general election during the political thread which over the last 4 years or so has become absolutely toxic at times. Hobodan did admit to going to not having anyone to go to football with before so perhaps is very lonely and has been indoctrinated by propoganda on the web. Either that or he's just a very bored troll. There is an anxiety thread specifically for that Hobodan, talk it out, don't just hate everything and become abusive.

Discussion of political matters quickly turns to abuse and then become a slanging match between the 'lefties/antifa' and the 'nazis' and to be quite honest is absolutely pathetic. People can have left political views without being a violent raging anarchist and likewise someone with right political views aren't the spawn of hitler. Choosing to abuse, rather than engage in discussion is dividing society.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Friday, April 16, 2021, 08:41:50


Discussion of political matters quickly turns to abuse and then become a slanging match between the 'lefties/antifa' and the 'nazis' and to be quite honest is absolutely pathetic. People can have left political views without being a violent raging anarchist and likewise someone with right political views aren't the spawn of hitler. Choosing to abuse, rather than engage in discussion is dividing society.
Perfectly summed up. Having a different opinion is not an offence. You can respect others views and disagree.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, April 16, 2021, 08:44:28
Perfectly summed up. Having a different opinion is not an offence. You can respect others views and disagree.

Agree entirely, but the last few pages of this thread have seen a poster openly expressing that he is a Nazi or pretending to be one for trolling purposes. There's no parallel to be drawn between that and expressing mainstream right or even hard right views, and the fact he's not been banned yet is a shame on the forum. This isn't a "change his avatar and call him a prick" situation, this is a "ban him, ban his IP and ban any sock puppet accounts he has" thing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, April 16, 2021, 09:04:39
You can respect others views and disagree.

I cannot respect the views being spouted by this tool. If you do respect them then frankly you need to have a word with yourself.

One can respect somebody's *right* to say what they want, but not what they actually say.

Not directed at you, Chalky, but too many people seem to think the right to expressing an opinion protects them from criticism and/or the potential consequences. It doesn't work like that. It would be extremely hypocritical to say everybody can say what they want but people are not allowed to respond to other peoples' comments as they see fit.

"It's just my opinion" is not a valid excuse for being a twat. That it is their opinion is the entire fucking problem.

If I were still an admin I'd have booted the cunt by now. Even if he is just trolling (which I suspect he is). But I'm not so that's somebody else's problem now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Friday, April 16, 2021, 09:16:18
Agree entirely, but the last few pages of this thread have seen a poster openly expressing that he is a Nazi or pretending to be one for trolling purposes. There's no parallel to be drawn between that and expressing mainstream right or even hard right views, and the fact he's not been banned yet is a shame on the forum. This isn't a "change his avatar and call him a prick" situation, this is a "ban him, ban his IP and ban any sock puppet accounts he has" thing.
+1


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Friday, April 16, 2021, 09:18:30
If I were still an admin I'd have booted the cunt by now. Even if he is just trolling (which I suspect he is). But I'm not so that's somebody else's problem now.
He may have some issues mentally.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Friday, April 16, 2021, 10:06:48
Re: hobodan

In our defence (as mods) it's quite difficult to stay on top of what's going on in all threads without reading every post.

I'm not sure what's been said or done and unless people use the report function, sometimes some of us would never know what's happened.

Give us a heads up when you see issues please (using the "report to moderator" function in the bottom right of each post) and it gives us a chance to do something. Thanks  :blowkiss:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Friday, April 16, 2021, 10:32:16
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/members/hobodan.42438/#about

Handsome chap!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Friday, April 16, 2021, 12:59:47
Re: hobodan

In our defence (as mods) it's quite difficult to stay on top of what's going on in all threads without reading every post.

I'm not sure what's been said or done and unless people use the report function, sometimes some of us would never know what's happened.

Give us a heads up when you see issues please (using the "report to moderator" function in the bottom right of each post) and it gives us a chance to do something. Thanks  :blowkiss:

My apologies - I should have just done that sooner and saved myself a lot of grief.  I will plead ignorance re report function (OK, piss poor excuse  :D) and thanks for the pointer/reminder  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Friday, April 23, 2021, 17:14:47
The EU are looking to harmonise tax rates across the EU. The EU only appear to have one approach, more EU.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, April 23, 2021, 17:25:41
The EU are looking to harmonise tax rates across the EU. The EU only appear to have one approach, more EU.

Hardly surprising, it is one of the stated aims from the original Rome Treaty.  Just because our Country were clearly too lay to read the thing before joining it's not a stick to beat the club with, they are just doing what they openly state they want to do - closer political, economic and social cohesion, a way of breaking down the causes of the previous World Wars.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, April 23, 2021, 18:35:45
The EU are looking to harmonise tax rates across the EU. The EU only appear to have one approach, more EU.

Slowly, slowly catchy monkey. As I have said before, (financial minds far beyond my level of understanding have said exactly the same) they need to harmonise ALL tax rates, what can and cannot be taxed, ALL spending on everything to underpin the €, a one size fits all. Just like a sovereign country would do. As it stands the the German banks, sorry, ECB cannot go on printing money and buying up debt like there is no tomorrow without seriously undermining the € &  EU project, which as we now know is a federal United States of Europe. There will at some point sovereign nations will be in name only. If it works for them, well done, however, I fear there will be massive civil unrest, particularly in the poorer Mediterranean countries and Italy too, which has debt to GDP of a third world country, with seemingly no way out.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 23, 2021, 18:57:30
The EU are looking to harmonise tax rates across the EU. The EU only appear to have one approach, more EU.
Does it matter, we are not in the EU...

Sent from my SM-A125F


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Friday, April 23, 2021, 19:26:26
Does it matter, we are not in the EU...

Sent from my SM-A125F
It probably matters as much as anyone quoting what we have missed by leaving


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, April 26, 2021, 08:23:44
Looks like Johnson's outlived his usefulness then and Murdoch, Rothermere and the Tufton St Mafia are lining up Gove or one of the other hard right psychopaths to take over after the local elections

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/BE31/production/_118198684_dailymail-nc.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, April 26, 2021, 08:27:54
Tbf, he was as good as his word. The bodies did, indeed, pile up in their thousands.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 26, 2021, 08:34:58
Looks like Johnson's outlived his usefulness then and Murdoch, Rothermere and the Tufton St Mafia are lining up Gove or one of the other hard right psychopaths to take over after the local elections

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/BE31/production/_118198684_dailymail-nc.png)

Note Gove's mention in the penultimate para on the front page, he is the chosen one!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, April 26, 2021, 08:51:06
Tbf, he was as good as his word. The bodies did, indeed, pile up in their thousands.
Tens of thousands in fact.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: normy on Monday, April 26, 2021, 10:27:58
What amazes me is that the Tories are six points ahead of Labour after all that has been fucked up by Boris and mates.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Monday, April 26, 2021, 10:29:44
What does that say about labour?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, April 26, 2021, 10:39:30
I think it says plenty about how much any of this stuff cuts through. For the very politically interested, sure. For the masses, the vaccination programme is going well and we're getting out of lockdown and that's broadly speaking all anyone cares about. You can blame the press/people/Starmer/lizards for that, but for most people corruption and nastiness is always going to rank behind life and liberty in priorities.

Fundamentally I think the pandemic makes it very hard to judge the "success" of either party, as so much of what determines people's judgement of political parties is pretty much out of their hands - infections, deaths, vaccinations and so on. Yes, there are political elements to all those things, but a) a lot of it is luck and b) we have no real parallel universe where people can easily see whether a decision was actually good or bad relative to the alternative.

So what you get instead is everyone insisting that limited, selected evidence just happens to prove they were right all along and Starmer is useless/Corbyn's still a big problem/Johnson is magic/it's all the BBC's fault.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 26, 2021, 10:45:53
So what you get instead is everyone insisting that limited, selected evidence just happens to prove they were right all along and Starmer is useless/Corbyn's still a big problem/Johnson is magic/it's all the BBC's fault.

(https://scontent.fman4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/178776482_4265602380165468_1981129788509070995_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=fbJdy69bLxcAX_8USXG&_nc_ht=scontent.fman4-1.fna&oh=6c188d87787f401be08e6dd1a36b3f65&oe=60AAA5F0)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, April 26, 2021, 10:46:51
I think it says plenty about how much any of this stuff cuts through. For the very politically interested, sure. For the masses, the vaccination programme is going well and we're getting out of lockdown and that's broadly speaking all anyone cares about. You can blame the press/people/Starmer/lizards for that, but for most people corruption and nastiness is always going to rank behind life and liberty in priorities.

Fundamentally I think the pandemic makes it very hard to judge the "success" of either party, as so much of what determines people's judgement of political parties is pretty much out of their hands - infections, deaths, vaccinations and so on. Yes, there are political elements to all those things, but a) a lot of it is luck and b) we have no real parallel universe where people can easily see whether a decision was actually good or bad relative to the alternative.

So what you get instead is everyone insisting that limited, selected evidence just happens to prove they were right all along and Starmer is useless/Corbyn's still a big problem/Johnson is magic/it's all the BBC's fault.



I think you've pretty much nailed it nemo. Let's be fair, the vaccination program in this country has been a massive success and so this is going to be a huge green tick for the govt, and rightly so. That means for a lot of people that Boris and co basically get a free ride now.

There does seem to be a large cupboard of skeletons in number 10, it will be interesting to see just how many of these will make an impact on the electorate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, April 26, 2021, 10:49:24
I think it says plenty about how much any of this stuff cuts through. For the very politically interested, sure. For the masses, the vaccination programme is going well and we're getting out of lockdown and that's broadly speaking all anyone cares about. You can blame the press/people/Starmer/lizards for that, but for most people corruption and nastiness is always going to rank behind life and liberty in priorities.

Fundamentally I think the pandemic makes it very hard to judge the "success" of either party, as so much of what determines people's judgement of political parties is pretty much out of their hands - infections, deaths, vaccinations and so on. Yes, there are political elements to all those things, but a) a lot of it is luck and b) we have no real parallel universe where people can easily see whether a decision was actually good or bad relative to the alternative.

So what you get instead is everyone insisting that limited, selected evidence just happens to prove they were right all along and Starmer is useless/Corbyn's still a big problem/Johnson is magic/it's all the BBC's fault.


TBF I suspect that kind of headline in the Mail will "cut through". What I was more interested in is why and why now? The knives are clearly out for Johnson, he's served his purpose and outlived his time, he was supposed to fall on his sword in January. Certainly the Murdoch press are lining up behind Gove as are the Mail, but will the party wear that? The whole shapeshifting lizard thing with Gove doesn't seem immediately electable but I guess they're depending on the electorate doing as it's told as usual. Late charge by Patel/Sunak for the latest unelected Prime Minister to be imposed on the country?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, April 26, 2021, 12:07:44
another year for Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe

Poor women, bargaining/political pawn. She must be mentally destroyed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, April 26, 2021, 12:10:13
Looks like Johnson's outlived his usefulness then and Murdoch, Rothermere and the Tufton St Mafia are lining up Gove or one of the other hard right psychopaths to take over after the local elections

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/BE31/production/_118198684_dailymail-nc.png)
Interesting. I'd initially assumed this was just Cummings/Gove trying to stitch the corrupt fraud up, but it seems there may actually be some truth in this, he apparently did actually say "Let the bodies pile high in their thousands"

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-04-26/robert-peston-boris-johnson-did-make-bodies-pile-high-in-their-thousands-comment


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 26, 2021, 12:53:04
Interesting. I'd initially assumed this was just Cummings/Gove trying to stitch the corrupt fraud up, but it seems there may actually be some truth in this, he apparently did actually say "Let the bodies pile high in their thousands"

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-04-26/robert-peston-boris-johnson-did-make-bodies-pile-high-in-their-thousands-comment

I understand that Gove is supposed to be answering a question in the commons about it later so who knows what he will do....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgdKFcOssnA


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 26, 2021, 13:17:47
another year for Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe

Poor women, bargaining/political pawn. She must be mentally destroyed

It's bloody awful and stinks, but what we going to do when its a question of Raab or god forbid Johnson who is responsible for sorting it out, remember last time Johnson got involved his words/intervention were used as evidence against her in court.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 27, 2021, 08:23:34
The more I see of this Binface chap, the more I like him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvM7WsqAaPs


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, April 27, 2021, 16:00:55
If you're a habitual liar, which Boris clearly is, then eventually it will bite you on the arse. He was named Pinnochio by his own family after all and has a long list of dishonesty to his name.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, April 28, 2021, 08:44:45
If you're a habitual liar, which Boris clearly is, then eventually it will bite you on the arse. He was named Pinnochio by his own family after all and has a long list of dishonesty to his name.
The problem seems to be that the electorate have "priced that in" in the awful media phrase. People knew he was a lying self-serving shit when they voted for him but they did so anyway, much like Trump in the US. Pointing out now that he's a lying self-serving shit doesn't do as much to damage him as people think it should, again like his role model Trump. Which in and of itself speaks volumes about the appalling state this country's political system is in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 28, 2021, 08:49:31
speaks volumes about the appalling state this country's political system is in.
Corrected for you.

In other news,  it emerges that Lord Brownlow is the bloke that gave Johnson 58,000 for his wallpaper plus £3 million in total donations to the Cons party/MPs. On a side note, his company has received £120 million in public contracts since 2017, one has to admit that's a pretty good RoI.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, April 28, 2021, 08:50:38
Corrected for you.

In other news,  it emerges that Lord Brownlow is the bloke that gave Johnson 58,000 for his wallpaper plus £3 million in total donations to the Cons party/MPs. On a side note, his company has received £120 million in public contracts since 2017, one has to admit that's a pretty good RoI.
Let the unmarked banknotes pile high in their (hundreds of) thousands


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Tuesday, May 4, 2021, 07:06:50
Nadine Dorries has borrowed Diana Abbotts' calculator; stating Brexit has delivered 180,000 'well paid' jobs to Hartlepool (almost two per resident)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, May 4, 2021, 07:35:49
Poor old Nadine.  If you gave her a penny for her thoughts, you'd get change


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 4, 2021, 08:49:21
Nadine Dorries has borrowed Diana Abbotts' calculator; stating Brexit has delivered 180,000 'well paid' jobs to Hartlepool (almost two per resident)

Much as when Johnson stated that the Tories had saved their hospital (they actually closed it and saved the one a fair few miles away in a neighbouring constituency)...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Tuesday, May 4, 2021, 10:15:44
Yeah but they're not Labour so it will soon be forgotten and hardly mentioned.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 4, 2021, 10:23:58
This is actually quite an interesting read.... https://jonn.substack.com/p/its-the-demographics-stupid


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, May 4, 2021, 10:54:47
Another Nazi terrorist (not an exaggeration, they've been arrested on terrorist charges) has been arrested in Swindon over the weekend, following on from the arrest of Ben Raymond a few weeks back. Quite the nest of scum we seem to have locally


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, May 5, 2021, 16:40:37
I can't tell you how much I hope "Lozza" loses to Count Binface tomorrow


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, May 5, 2021, 16:45:25
I can't tell you how much I hope "Lozza" loses to Count Binface tomorrow

Will probably be the fault of the commy, Britain hating snowflake leftists when he (hopefully) does lose.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 06:29:47
People’s thoughts on the local elections? Anyone bothering to vote?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 06:35:19
I'm voting.

I'm sure the people of Swindon will vote Tory despite the utter mess that is this town.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 08:22:01
Went and put my x's in the boxes for the PCC election (waste of time that is!) we aren't getting locals up here as they are thinking about abolishing the Council so present incumbents stay in place for now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 08:50:40
North of the border now so it's Scottish parliamentary elections here. Get a constituency vote and a list vote which has every nutter known to man on it. The Scottish Family Party are my favourites, very much old school Christian right feel to them, proper nuts, none of this social media friendly right-winger stuff you get in Foxy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 09:23:46
North of the border now so it's Scottish parliamentary elections here. Get a constituency vote and a list vote which has every nutter known to man on it. The Scottish Family Party are my favourites, very much old school Christian right feel to them, proper nuts, none of this social media friendly right-winger stuff you get in Foxy.

Same here.  Has to be the most complicated vote casting I've ever been involved in this morning.

Your post reminded me of something that happened to us this weekend.  We're also newly arrived in Scotland and my 12 yr old, who had never been to Edinburgh, demanded we take him there.  He's quite in to politics now, so we marched down the Royal Mile to see the Parliament.  (Bit of a let down, if I'm honest.)  And spotted a rally nearby.  So popped on our masks to take a look.

It was only after getting lots of funny looks, and then realising that we were the only ones actually wearing masks in the crowd - and then spotting the 'masks are for muggers' placards that the penny dropped.  We'd wandered in to a gathering of the Scottish Libertarians.  Sharp exit followed.  And no, they didn't get my vote this morning.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 09:56:39
Same here.  Has to be the most complicated vote casting I've ever been involved in this morning.

Your post reminded me of something that happened to us this weekend.  We're also newly arrived in Scotland and my 12 yr old, who had never been to Edinburgh, demanded we take him there.  He's quite in to politics now, so we marched down the Royal Mile to see the Parliament.  (Bit of a let down, if I'm honest.)  And spotted a rally nearby.  So popped on our masks to take a look.

It was only after getting lots of funny looks, and then realising that we were the only ones actually wearing masks in the crowd - and then spotting the 'masks are for muggers' placards that the penny dropped.  We'd wandered in to a gathering of the Scottish Libertarians.  Sharp exit followed.  And no, they didn't get my vote this morning.

What branch of Libertarians do they fall into, the racist ones who like to claim they are not racist by trying to argue they have a political ideology, the contrary ones who are tedious wankers who will moan and argue about everything or those who actually have Libertarian ideology?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 10:20:09
I see we are making massive bell ends of ourselves on the world stage again today.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:29:33
I see we are making massive bell ends of ourselves on the world stage again today.

Election in 3, 2, 1...and, release the gunboats!

The Brexit faithful jingo-juices are well & truly flowing this morning.  Kill the fishing industry, then send in the Navy to make it look like you give a shit.  They've not had a jizz-fest like this one at the Daily Mail since the Falklands War.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:38:41
Yep, damned Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57008220


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:52:55
Yep, damned Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57008220

Oh, come on.

You must surely understand the reason for the growth and that it has fuck all to do with Brexit?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:54:27
Yep, damned Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57008220
  :girlgiggle:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:55:38
Quote from: horlock07
I see we are making massive bell ends of ourselves on the world stage again today.

Two warships seems mild

They have farted in our general direction, and accused our mothers of being hampsters, and our fathers smelling of elderberries


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 12:34:05
Oh, come on.

You must surely understand the reason for the growth and that it has fuck all to do with Brexit?

Yet still predicted to outstrip the EU big guns, even though our GDP was hardest hit in 2020. The brexit effect or something else?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 12:37:00
Yet still predicted to outstrip the EU big guns, even though our GDP was hardest hit in 2020.
Do you have a link please? That isn't referenced in the Beeb article


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 12:51:09
Yet still predicted to outstrip the EU big guns, even though our GDP was hardest hit in 2020. The brexit effect or something else?

One would imagine our being somewhat ahead of the EU zone in vaccinations would have some effect...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 12:58:04
Do you have a link please? That isn't referenced in the Beeb article

https://www.pwc.co.uk/who-we-are/regional-sites/northern-ireland/press-releases/world-in-2050.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 13:00:03
It's a bit like Trump cheerleading the largest increase in jobs in the US in history (on the back of the largest reduction in jobs due to Covid - twat).  The economy was always going to have a big bounce on the back of the massive Covid restrictions, it is not really news IMO.

It is really difficult at the moment to see what the real impact is of pretty much everything as the economy is still suffering the effects of Covid and will for some time, and this has made it hard to measure, hidden, or excused for now, a lot of the impacts of Brexit (depending on who you listen to I suppose).  Notwithstanding of course the impact on the fishing industry, farmers, exporters, importers, hauliers, manufacturers...

...pretty much a lot of people other than high-end wall paper suppliers  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 13:08:23
The UK and EU are both bouncing back from Covid and 2020, the prediction from the IMF is the UK GDP will increase by 5.3% whilst the EU will by 4.5%.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 13:08:42
https://www.pwc.co.uk/who-we-are/regional-sites/northern-ireland/press-releases/world-in-2050.html
Thanks for the link. Now we just need to hold out til 2050 and hope it's right


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 13:10:12
Or just wait for 2021 to end to see if the IMF were right  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 13:11:35
https://www.pwc.co.uk/who-we-are/regional-sites/northern-ireland/press-releases/world-in-2050.html


Setting aside where you find the time to be trawling press releases from PWC's Northern Ireland office, that report is 4-5 years old (published 7th February 2017), so less than a year after the referendum and when we had no idea what Brexit was going to look like.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Broadbents Tackle on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 13:14:51
The UK and EU are both bouncing back from Covid and 2020, the prediction from the IMF is the UK GDP will increase by 5.3% whilst the EU will by 4.5%.

But how much did they both reduce last year? I'm pretty sure our GDP reduced more, hence why it would rebound more as others have explained to you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 13:21:09
Setting aside where you find the time to be trawling press releases from PWC's Northern Ireland office, that report is 4-5 years old (published 7th February 2017), so less than a year after the referendum and when we had no idea what Brexit was going to look like.

Even better then  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 13:25:34
But how much did they both reduce last year? I'm pretty sure our GDP reduced more, hence why it would rebound more as others have explained to you.

It did, UK was about 1.5% worse than the EU. It will take at least another year to get back on track, be interesting to see the 2022 figures.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 13:42:13
Squabbles over fishing are only set to escalate further. Humans have destroyed fish stocks so this will only get worse unless we drastically reduce our seafood consumption.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 13:43:35
Voted Labour by the way on all forms except for the police thingy where I voted Green first choice, Labour second.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 14:11:56
Election in 3, 2, 1...and, release the gunboats!

The Brexit faithful jingo-juices are well & truly flowing this morning.  Kill the fishing industry, then send in the Navy to make it look like you give a shit.  They've not had a jizz-fest like this one at the Daily Mail since the Falklands War.
Are people really falling for this? It's clearly just a bit of distraction theatre. The depressing thing is we've got fucking years of this "Don't look at the pile of dead bodies over there, look at the horrid foreigner over there", "Yes I know you've lost your job and your hospital's closed but Macron said something rude about Prince William's kid". And people will lap it up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 14:28:51
Are people really falling for this? It's clearly just a bit of distraction theatre. The depressing thing is we've got fucking years of this "Don't look at the pile of dead bodies over there, look at the horrid foreigner over there", "Yes I know you've lost your job and your hospital's closed but Macron said something rude about Prince William's kid". And people will lap it up.

The gift that keeps on giving. Keep it up Paul.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 14:41:33
Are people really falling for this? It's clearly just a bit of distraction theatre. The depressing thing is we've got fucking years of this "Don't look at the pile of dead bodies over there, look at the horrid foreigner over there", "Yes I know you've lost your job and your hospital's closed but Macron said something rude about Prince William's kid". And people will lap it up.

I think for many the whole point of Brexit is to trigger a perpetual series of crises and respond to them with patriotic outrage, because culture war and flag shagging its just about all they have left to cling to. Plus its a handy way to deflect attention whilst you are systemically looting the country and taking the cash.

To be fair to the media we have government sources briefing the Telegraph suggesting the French are worse than the Nazi's.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E0sXOlqWUAEtF2N?format=jpg&name=large)

The state of this country is fucking embarrassing, until a large proportion actually get some pride back and stop revelling in being lied to we have no hope, no wonder cuckold pornography is so popular.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 14:54:13
It did, UK was about 1.5% worse than the EU. It will take at least another year to get back on track, be interesting to see the 2022 figures.

If we contracted by 1.5% more, and are only going to rebound by 0.8% more, then we’re still.....worse off??



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 14:57:19
On a lighter note.... https://thecritic.co.uk/the-woodfired-brick-wall/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 15:28:16
The gift that keeps on giving. Keep it up Paul.
And right on cue, along comes exhibit 1.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 15:42:28
If we contracted by 1.5% more, and are only going to rebound by 0.8% more, then we’re still.....worse off??



Initially, but not moving forward...

https://www.export.org.uk/news/559665/IMF-predicts-the-UK-is-on-course-for-faster-growth-than-the-United-States-and-the-EU.htm#:~:text=However%2C%20growth%20will%20be%20slip,one-year%20figure%20since%201941


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 15:53:50
Initially, but not moving forward...

https://www.export.org.uk/news/559665/IMF-predicts-the-UK-is-on-course-for-faster-growth-than-the-United-States-and-the-EU.htm#:~:text=However%2C%20growth%20will%20be%20slip,one-year%20figure%20since%201941
That's just an aggregation of summaries from other news sources. It's not even "they said" it's "they said they said". Do you have a link to the original IMF report?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mr Stevens on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 16:50:15
I know it's between me and the ballot box but all I will say is that I am confident that the Red Flag will be flying over Cadishead Village Hall in the morning.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 19:17:04
Went and put my x's in the boxes for the PCC election (waste of time that is!) we aren't getting locals up here as they are thinking about abolishing the Council so present incumbents stay in place for now.

Likewise for me, PCC only. I didn't realise and was bloody disappointed when handed a sheet with only;

Tory
Labour
Lib Dem

Which made it much tougher for me than usual but seeing as it was only PCC, it really makes little jot except the council tax might go up a bit next year depending on who and if they fancy a few extra quid  ::)

Went at 4pm and they had 75 (I was 75) voters so far, out of a small constituency of 1000. Plus around 100 postal. I'll be surprised if we get 500 by 10pm. Nice people at the bowls club though...even if I expect some of them are from the more blue side of Yorkshire. The set up was just as easy as usual, except avec mask and separate cups for "clean" and "dirty" pencils.

Always doff the cap to all vote counters, as it is a day of tedium and I expect many cups of tea.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 20:02:34
50% turnout for a PCC election would be unheard of heights I think, they're usually below 20% if they're not combined with another election at the same time.

Did my MSP constituency & list votes - the list one was as long as your arm, but at least helps if you're in a safe seat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 20:58:48
Tories are going to clean up again aren't they? Sadly not in the sense of cleaning up their act though


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 21:20:40
Tories are going to clean up again aren't they? Sadly not in the sense of cleaning up their act though

As much as it is easy to knock such voting patterns, maybe one day the other parties will ask the question why? rather than just preaching (I see the irony, but I'm not a politician, so I don't have to worry about whether I am preaching or not, if I want to just condescend people, I can).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, May 6, 2021, 21:41:52
As much as it is easy to knock such voting patterns, maybe one day the other parties will ask the question why? rather than just preaching (I see the irony, but I'm not a politician, so I don't have to worry about whether I am preaching or not, if I want to just condescend people, I can).
Oh, absolutely. Been saying this since before the referendum. And preaching :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, May 7, 2021, 06:42:05
 :tumbleweed:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, May 7, 2021, 08:33:36
The most exciting part of the voting process was finding out that one of the councillers on the paper lives next door to us.

We followed up the voting process by going to our local and having 4 pints of Guiness and a decent chat to an ex-military man who is probably on the opposite side of the political spectrum to my wife and I. (apparently he had never voted blue until after the Brexit vote) He had his reasons for voting the way he did, and we have ours and at the end of the day democracy wins out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 7, 2021, 09:18:39
:tumbleweed:
How unusual for a thread to be quiet at 7.40 am


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 7, 2021, 09:20:14
Labour have proper fucked this haven't they? Still at least they can now spend the next six months with the left blaming the centrists and the centrists blaming the left which is what they're all happiest doing. Ineffectual arseholes


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, May 7, 2021, 09:23:14
Labour have proper fucked this haven't they? Still at least they can now spend the next six months with the left blaming the centrists and the centrists blaming the left which is what they're all happiest doing. Ineffectual arseholes

It appears that they have learned nothing from the last election and just hoped things would get better. Getting exactly what they deserved I suppose.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 7, 2021, 09:31:38
Thing is with Hartlepool, what seems to be very overlooked (I confess that I had no idea until pointed at the figures) the only reason Labour won it in 2019 was that UKIP split the right vote*, since the Hartlepool constituency was founded in 1974 the combined votes of: The Conservatives UKIP/Brexit & far right parties ...has ALWAYS been higher than 33% at election time. The only exceptions were 1997, 2001 & 2005... ...when Tony Blair was leader of the Labour Party. Indeed for half the elections since 1974, the right + far right in Hartlepool got 40-60% of the vote. The idea that Labour is suddenly struggling here because “it’s moved away from the left” or because “the red-wall has suddenly fallen for the right” simply doesn’t add up. Hartlepool got within 1 500 swing votes of a Tory MP in 1983 when Labour had its most left wing leader in it’s then history and Margaret Thatcher was standing on the back of a “patriotic Falklands victory campaign”.

* Yesterday, as entirely expected if you read beyond much of the MSM the right/far-right vote coalesced into one party - the Conservatives, while the non-right vote was split between 4-5 parties. so once again FPTP will put the Tories in the seat.

The one slight shocker, which I suspect will be brushed under the carpet by the most vociferous on social media, is that the Continuity Corbyn Party (NIP) polled lower than both the Greens or Lib Dems, and around 200 less than the anti-vaxxers.

I am not sure whether the conclusion to glean here is that Labour fucked it up (albeit they are in total disarray generally) or that at the present the electorate bar in the big cities is extremely nationalistic?

When's the London result coming out, as Hartlepool was a foregone conclusion the main issue is whether Binface can see off Waitrose Tommy Robinson.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 7, 2021, 09:36:56
Thing is with Hartlepool, what seems to be very overlooked (I confess that I had no idea until pointed at the figures) the only reason Labour won it in 2019 was that UKIP split the right vote*, since the Hartlepool constituency was founded in 1974 the combined votes of: The Conservatives UKIP/Brexit & far right parties ...has ALWAYS been higher than 33% at election time. The only exceptions were 1997, 2001 & 2005... ...when Tony Blair was leader of the Labour Party. Indeed for half the elections since 1974, the right + far right in Hartlepool got 40-60% of the vote. The idea that Labour is suddenly struggling here because “it’s moved away from the left” or because “the red-wall has suddenly fallen for the right” simply doesn’t add up. Hartlepool got within 1 500 swing votes of a Tory MP in 1983 when Labour had its most left wing leader in it’s then history and Margaret Thatcher was standing on the back of a “patriotic Falklands victory campaign”.

* Yesterday, as entirely expected if you read beyond much of the MSM the right/far-right vote coalesced into one party - the Conservatives, while the non-right vote was split between 4-5 parties. so once again FPTP will put the Tories in the seat.

The one slight shocker, which I suspect will be brushed under the carpet by the most vociferous on social media, is that the Continuity Corbyn Party (NIP) polled lower than both the Greens or Lib Dems, and around 200 less than the anti-vaxxers.

I am not sure whether the conclusion to glean here is that Labour fucked it up (albeit they are in total disarray generally) or that at the present the electorate bar in the big cities is extremely nationalistic?
It's not an either or, necessarily. You can conclude that the Tories are riding a populist nationalist wave and also notice that Labour are a watse of space. I was talking more generally than just Hartlepool but I struggle to see how anyone can look at even the early results coming out and draw any conclusion other than that Labour are fucked, and their ongoing internal navel-gazing isn't helping.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 7, 2021, 09:43:12
It's not an either or, necessarily. You can conclude that the Tories are riding a populist nationalist wave and also notice that Labour are a watse of space. I was talking more generally than just Hartlepool but I struggle to see how anyone can look at even the early results coming out and draw any conclusion other than that Labour are fucked, and their ongoing internal navel-gazing isn't helping.

Oh they are, one only has to look at social media to see that there seem to be as many Labour 'supporters' wanting Starmer to fail as wanting him to succeed.

Some Interesting comments from David Allen Green this morning;

The political challenge is not to lie 'higher, further, faster' than the governing party

The governing party is better at this than any opponent

The political challenge is to make it matter to voters that they are being lied to

And that task of leadership is hard for anyone

How do you make voters care about being lied to?

By exposing lies? - No, that by itself has no effect

By new lies? - No, the governing party will be better at it than you

That is the ultimate challenge for opposition politicians, though they will attack each other instead.

It is interesting that polls repeatedly show that the public want political lying to be a criminal offence and yet they vote for people they know are lying because the lies fit their prejudices.

In slightly more cheery news the LD's seem to have stabilised and the Greens are having a good election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, May 7, 2021, 10:05:48
Labour have proper fucked this haven't they? Still at least they can now spend the next six months with the left blaming the centrists and the centrists blaming the left which is what they're all happiest doing. Ineffectual arseholes

I'm almost as annoyed at them as I am the tories.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 7, 2021, 10:17:23
I'm almost as annoyed at them as I am the tories.

Quite an interesting thread from Dom's predecessor looking at the wider electoral and structural problems facing Labour https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1390549774986788864.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Friday, May 7, 2021, 10:17:24
Let's face it, Johnson could say "bollocks to the Queen" and marry Megan Markle and still not enough people would care


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Friday, May 7, 2021, 10:21:05
For people like me who have no real strong allegiance as such the last few years watching it has been horrible. I can't be fucked to vote anymore if I am honest. Social media and places like this thread show that people will not be converted from their beliefs and I get that.

What I find now more than ever is the constant shouting down and people are so condescending when you tell them why you are voting one way or why you don't like something. Politics is fucked in this country and I find myself not liking any of them or anyone who just shouts about them at me


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, May 7, 2021, 10:37:22
I’m not a voter - never really have been.

What’s worse, politics before social media when everyone was kept in the dark or politics now where social media and whatever version of the truth parties put out just gets mingled and nobody can separate truth from fiction.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 7, 2021, 10:44:33
Let's face it, Johnson could say "bollocks to the Queen" and marry Megan Markle and still not enough people would care
The "let the bodies pile high in their thousands" comment was the equivalent of Trump's "I could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and they'd still love me and vote for me". People know Johnson's a liar, they know he's corrupt, they know he's happy to watch them and their families die if it suits him, they just don't give a fuck. Mainly because they think it will be someone else's families that suffer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 7, 2021, 10:45:51
I’m not a voter - never really have been.

What’s worse, politics before social media when everyone was kept in the dark or politics now where social media and whatever version of the truth parties put out just gets mingled and nobody can separate truth from fiction.
That's dead easy - you don't need to separate truth from fiction because it's all lies now. As a nation, we have witnessed the death of standards in public life, cheered it on and given it a resounding majority.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, May 7, 2021, 10:52:38
Not trying to put words in your mouth, but are you subtly suggesting that voting should be taken away from the great unwashed because they can’t work things out for themselves and are too stupid or unconcerned to even try?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 7, 2021, 11:00:29
Interesting that most (if not all) of the comment from the last few pages relates really only to England - which is now more Tory than it's ever been.  The Scottish results will be fascinating to watch & digest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 7, 2021, 11:06:27
Not trying to put words in your mouth, but are you subtly suggesting that voting should be taken away from the great unwashed because they can’t work things out for themselves and are too stupid or unconcerned to even try?
No not at all. Nothing of the sort. The very opposite in fact. I don't think the people who voted Tory were stupid and that they were taken in by the lies, I said they know Johnson's lying, they just don't give a shit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, May 7, 2021, 11:08:15
How unusual for a thread to be quiet at 7.40 am


My bad. How’s the inquest going?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 7, 2021, 11:10:52
Interesting that most (if not all) of the comment from the last few pages relates really only to England - which is now more Tory than it's ever been.  The Scottish results will be fascinating to watch & digest.

I think the thing is for many England now is the UK, they might bang on about Rule Britannia and all that jazz but they don't really give a shite about Scotland, NI or Wales. As that thing I linked earlier noted one of the big problems Labour have is that historically they depended on Scotland for a large number of seats to get any majority, as Scotland is now basically yellow, Labour (or in fact any other party) will have to do incredibly well in England to gain any majority.

I think the Scottish and Welsh* results could be interesting as its becoming clear that the residents are realising that the government really doesn't care about them, the breakdown of the Union is looking evermore likely and it will be interesting to see how the mainstream parties handle that, especially when you consider the Tories Sunday name is the Conservative and Unionist Party, it may be the case that Johnson or his successors biggest legacy is the loss of the union.

* I am particularly interested in Wales as my BiL is standing for the Seneed or whatever its called.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 7, 2021, 11:37:07
I miss Reg.  This thread needs him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, May 7, 2021, 11:52:34
The "let the bodies pile high in their thousands" comment was the equivalent of Trump's "I could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and they'd still love me and vote for me". People know Johnson's a liar, they know he's corrupt, they know he's happy to watch them and their families die if it suits him, they just don't give a fuck. Mainly because they think it will be someone else's families that suffer.

It's that constant which has been there within many of the societal human psyche for many years - "Well I'm alright jack". Literally don't give a fuck about anyone else.

Everyone like that thinks they've made it. Thinks nothing bad will ever happen to them like losing their job/house/a huge life event/etc. They fail to see how their job probably isn't as secure as they think and likely most people are only two, maybe three steps from it all going to shit. How many people these days do you see checking on their neighbour or even talking to them (covid restrictions aside)?

Yet they still vote in parties that likely don't match their values or that might benefit them or their community/demographic better (which is odd considering the self centred element). It's ignorance led but also cocksure led too. You'd think a global pandemic would at least make us sit up a bit more and be at least attuned to community, environment and issues that lay further than our own backyard. We're failing as a species (collectively) and we're right on track for a series of further major societal collapses. If the ignorance continues, if the gap of unity grows wider, we'll ultimately destroy ourselves and drag a whole bunch of species with us.

That is unless you've got the disposable to go and inhabit the Moon or possibly Mars at some point. Another planet or satellite we can then mine the fuck out of and rape the resources of until that too is fucked but it's ok because they'll be "alright jack". I struggle to see anything but capitulation for our species and relief for any left in our wake as some form of endgame.

I feel I often care too much (which is probably why I obversely ruffle some people up the wrong way) but I wish people would at least care a little bit and see the bigger picture.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 7, 2021, 12:05:25
It's that constant which has been there within many of the societal human psyche for many years - "Well I'm alright jack". Literally don't give a fuck about anyone else.

Everyone like that thinks they've made it. Thinks nothing bad will ever happen to them like losing their job/house/a huge life event/etc. They fail to see how their job probably isn't as secure as they think and likely most people are only two, maybe three steps from it all going to shit. How many people these days do you see checking on their neighbour or even talking to them (covid restrictions aside)?

Yet they still vote in parties that likely don't match their values or that might benefit them or their community/demographic better (which is odd considering the self centred element). It's ignorance led but also cocksure led too. You'd think a global pandemic would at least make us sit up a bit more and be at least attuned to community, environment and issues that lay further than our own backyard. We're failing as a species (collectively) and we're right on track for a series of further major societal collapses. If the ignorance continues, if the gap of unity grows wider, we'll ultimately destroy ourselves and drag a whole bunch of species with us.

That is unless you've got the disposable to go and inhabit the Moon or possibly Mars at some point. Another planet or satellite we can then mine the fuck out of and rape the resources of until that too is fucked but it's ok because they'll be "alright jack". I struggle to see anything but capitulation for our species and relief for any left in our wake as some form of endgame.

I feel I often care too much (which is probably why I obversely ruffle some people up the wrong way) but I wish people would at least care a little bit and see the bigger picture.

Buy this book. Read it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Better-Angels-Our-Nature-Violence/dp/0141034645

It's easy to think everything is getting worse, but it really isn't. We have made hug strides as a species in a relatively short period of time. Life has genuinely never been better or safer for most.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Friday, May 7, 2021, 12:09:02
Labour need to sort the left / right shit out. Grow a pair and tell momentum to fuck off and firm their own party. Move to the right of centre and talk to people, not at them. Get away from the intellectual superiority of thinking they're right, if only the electorate weren't too fucking stupid to see their brilliance. Starmer does seem to be doing this but filling it with nothing. They really need to get their communications together.
Talking of which the left wing press is as useless as our defence. The   right wing press is on to Boris more than the left. The FT and Times broke the decorating mallarky. The mail broke the bodies piled high stuff.
If you can't make a decent job of opposing this bunch of fucking corrupt, cronyist sleazeballs then you should be reconsidering your job.
Starmer is an intelligent man but not a leader. Hes got the presence of Conor Thomas.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 7, 2021, 12:09:35
Buy this book. Read it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Better-Angels-Our-Nature-Violence/dp/0141034645

It's easy to think everything is getting worse, but it really isn't. We have made hug strides as a species in a relatively short period of time. Life has genuinely never been better or safer for most.
Completely agree on the broad sweep, but the wave of authoritarian populist movements rising across the world, from Trump in the US, Putin in Russia, Duerte in the Philllipines, Bolsanaro in Brazil, Modi in India, Orban in Hungary, Erdoan in Turkey and of course the Brexitist mafia in the UK does suggest that many of those strides are at the very least under attack and may be about to get significantly worse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 7, 2021, 12:10:18
Labour need to sort the left / right shit out. Grow a pair and tell momentum to fuck off and firm their own party. Move to the right of centre and talk to people, not at them. Get away from the intellectual superiority of thinking they're right, if only the electorate weren't too fucking stupid to see their brilliance. Starmer does seem to be doing this but filling it with nothing. They really need to get their communications together.
Talking of which the left wing press is as useless as our defence. The   right wing press is on to Boris more than the left. The FT and Times broke the decorating mallarky. The mail broke the bodies piled high stuff.
If you can't make a decent job of opposing this bunch of fucking corrupt, cronyist sleazeballs then you should be reconsidering your job.
Starmer is an intelligent man but not a leader. Bes got the presence of Conor Thomas.
100% agree


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 7, 2021, 12:16:13
Completely agree on the broad sweep, but the wave of authoritarian populist movements rising across the world, from Trump in the US, Putin in Russia, Duerte in the Philllipines, Bolsanaro in Brazil, Modi in India, Orban in Hungary, Erdoan in Turkey and of course the Brexitist mafia in the UK does suggest that many of those strides are at the very least under attack and may be about to get significantly worse.

It won't last


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 7, 2021, 12:19:12
It won't last
Let's hope not. There's a considerable amount of human suffering and lasting damage being inflicted in the meantime though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, May 7, 2021, 12:34:30
Buy this book. Read it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Better-Angels-Our-Nature-Violence/dp/0141034645

It's easy to think everything is getting worse, but it really isn't. We have made huge strides as a species in a relatively short period of time. Life has genuinely never been better or safer for most.

I will do Jayo. Thanks. Have you read Collapse by Prof Jared Diamond (author of the Third Chimpanzee) at all? And also take a read about the "Town that continues to burn", Centralia, Pennsylvania. After their problems with waste, it was ordered to be set alight and it spread into coal mine tunnels there. This event happened in 1962 and all roads to it are now barricaded as it's deemed too unsafe - yet a handful of people still live there. Incredible story and example of poor human management of our environment.

I understand what you are saying but it feels like in the places it matters or where the biggest impact is/can be made positively, we are starting to go down a steep track of regression.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, May 7, 2021, 13:04:34
Even if Labour need to get their house in order, I still don't understand why someone would stick a X next to a Tory candidate instead. That's just me though..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, May 7, 2021, 13:19:22
Even if Labour need to get their house in order, I still don't understand why someone would stick a X next to a Tory candidate instead. That's just me though..

I'm the same. I'd rather spoil my paper than ever vote Tory. Although on this occasion went Green.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, May 7, 2021, 13:20:24
I'm the same. I'd rather spoil my paper than ever vote Tory. Although on this occasion went Green.

I’d rather spoil my paper than vote Labour. Touchet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, May 7, 2021, 13:21:39
I’d rather spoil my paper than vote Labour. Touchet.

As is your right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, May 7, 2021, 13:27:43
Even if Labour need to get their house in order, I still don't understand why someone would stick a X next to a Tory candidate instead. That's just me though..

Fear and simple solutions.

You create fear, a much greater motivator than opportunity.  If I invite you to walk towards me because I have something you might like, you might do, but you might not, and even if you do, it is probably cautious walking.  If I tell you there is a fire behind you and it is heading your way, you'll run towards me if I tell you I have a hose.

It is very hard to fight politics when you take it down to that level.  You either have to do something to take the fear away, make it seem less obviously bad, or offer your own simple solutions (probably knowing that won't be enough anyway).

Take the Labour Party in 1997 - as much as people may hate them for what they were, they got into power by offering some basic solutions to complex situations that had generated a lot of fear.

Their manifesto included things like:

Protect the NHS and spend 100m on patients by reducing spending on Admin and cut waiting lists
Free Childcare for 4 and 5 year olds
Cut class sizes to less than zero by increasing spend on Education as a % of total spend
Minimum Wage, Maximum hours and guaranteed time off
Locking up youth offenders more often and more quickly
Devolution for Scotland, NI, Wales, London & the Regions (the latter didn't really work)

They were not completely left wing, in fact, the Tories probably wouldn't disband any of these items or suggest they would.

They responded to potential fears, real or otherwise - if I get ill it may take ages to get seen, I can't get a job because childcare costs too much, I won't earn enough money because employers hold all the cards, I'm worried about all that nasty crime the right wing press tells me exists on my doorstep, the UK Govt doesn't care about us Scots etc.

A party needs to address similar fears of today:

My job is at risk - it may be pinched by a nasty immigrant or go to their country
I don't have a job - as much as benefits helps, I actually want a job (or think I do)
The school I send my kids to is probably teaching them crazy stuff and isn't much kop beyond that

The Tories have clear ways of handling these problems, you may not agree with them personally, but to plenty of people they offer a solution.  Like the Trump policy of building a wall to keep the immigrants out (which completely ignored the fact most of us come via air), Brexit and control of borders is the easy solution.  Stops all those pesky foreign people who speak other languages from coming.  A Party needs to do two things - first, show up the holes in the wall.  Second, offer something else that sounds just as simple and effective.

Jobs offshore - USA went after Trade policy - we'll charge the nasty Chinese more to send their shit over here so everyone will build and buy USA.  The trade deficit actually widened, but it still sounded good.  In the UK, you have the Brexit problem to solve - how to sell stuff abroad, so you tout free trade deals and show the EU as a blocker.  Our Sovereignty will set us free.  Time for other parties to accept the world as it is - offer trade policies for a world post Brexit and stop moaning about it.  There is a fucking huge trade bloc just to the right of the UK, start offering policies to fix the Brexit red tape problems.

And so on.

You get Power first, then you fix the shit that matters but people don't vote on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, May 7, 2021, 13:55:33
As is your right.

And yours of course.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 7, 2021, 14:12:04
I will do Jayo. Thanks. Have you read Collapse by Prof Jared Diamond (author of the Third Chimpanzee) at all? And also take a read about the "Town that continues to burn", Centralia, Pennsylvania. After their problems with waste, it was ordered to be set alight and it spread into coal mine tunnels there. This event happened in 1962 and all roads to it are now barricaded as it's deemed too unsafe - yet a handful of people still live there. Incredible story and example of poor human management of our environment.

I understand what you are saying but it feels like in the places it matters or where the biggest impact is/can be made positively, we are starting to go down a steep track of regression.

That town was the inspiration for Silent Hill


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, May 7, 2021, 14:21:23
That town was the inspiration for Silent Hill

Ha! That's weird. The article I read a while back never mentioned Silent Hill but I always thought there were some kind of similarities.

*Googles - Centralia Silent Hill*

And there she is!

I say weird because I was only talking about SH in the Films Fred, last night. It also explains why the computer game to film works quite well in this instance too. That satisfies the section of my "tedious (or not so) links" part of my grey matter. Cheers!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 7, 2021, 15:01:04
Yeah I only mention it because you spoke of Silent Hill in another post but hadn't seemed to make the connection


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, May 7, 2021, 15:23:31
Yeah I only mention it because you spoke of Silent Hill in another post but hadn't seemed to make the connection

Yeah in all honesty, I genuinely just thought that the Silent Hill movies were inspired by the story within the games and didn't realise they were based closer to the true story I then find myself talking about too. Maybe it was already logged in the subconscious or something but a nice link.

Anyway, I guess I'd better keep this politics. Labour are doing wank but the Greens seem to be having some good levels of voter intention.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 7, 2021, 19:13:41
Interesting pattern so far seems to be most incumbent govts doing very well - Labour in Wales massively outperforming their UK wide performance whilst Cons clean up in England and SNP Scotland. Vaccine bounces for all three administrations or something more subtle?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 7, 2021, 19:44:32
Interesting pattern so far seems to be most incumbent govts doing very well - Labour in Wales massively outperforming their UK wide performance whilst Cons clean up in England and SNP Scotland. Vaccine bounces for all three administrations or something more subtle?

Early days, but may yet point towards the atomisation of the UK.  Tories in Scotland seem to be pinning their hopes on pro-Union tactical voting supporting their performance in the Regional/List vote that comes through tomorrow.  If it doesn't, the 'UK' is going to start looking much less 'U'.  For all the focus on Hartlepool in the English press - and how it's heralding the death of Labour - the radical Torification of northern England could well be heralding the beginning of the end of something even bigger.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, May 7, 2021, 20:04:46
When you shrink inwards, it is tough to know where to stop.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, May 7, 2021, 20:07:14
To provide balance, Brexit came about because when you expand to quickly, and without being honest about why (Uk politicians) or having the right infrastructure in place to support the necessary jolts to society (EU), you run the risk of bits falling off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, May 7, 2021, 23:34:17
To provide balance, Brexit came about because when you expand to quickly, and without being honest about why (Uk politicians) or having the right infrastructure in place to support the necessary jolts to society (EU), you run the risk of bits falling off.

Try lying. You’ll be more accurate with the overall picture.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, May 7, 2021, 23:40:22
No not at all. Nothing of the sort. The very opposite in fact. I don't think the people who voted Tory were stupid and that they were taken in by the lies, I said they know Johnson's lying, they just don't give a shit.

Are you sure? I’d wager that you had those thoughts about us gammons not knowing what we were voting for in the Brexit referendum.

Actually we do give a shit, that’s why we vote conservative I’ll have you know. We just don’t give a shit about Labour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 09:04:10
The people have spoken. And they've said "we want dishonesty, cronyism, sleaze and a jab".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cowley38 on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 09:14:39
The people have spoken. And they've said "we want dishonesty, cronyism, sleaze and a jab".

Or they believe the Labour alternative is twice as bad!!



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 09:39:59
The people have spoken. And they've said "we want dishonesty, cronyism, sleaze and a jab".


Don't forget the highest death rate in Europe. Deserve everything you guys get.


Frankie Boyle once said, Its good to know that when the zombie apocalypse comes and we are eating each others corpses that 40% of survivors will vote tory


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 09:40:40
Or they believe the Labour alternative is twice as bad!!


If only any of us knew what it was


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 09:59:02
Maybe labour need to go for Andy Burnham or Jonathan ashworth. They seem to know how to talk to people. Labour are a fucking shambles. When was the last time they truly represented the working man, early 70s?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cowley38 on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 10:04:49

Don't forget the highest death rate in Europe. Deserve everything you guys get.


Frankie Boyle once said, Its good to know that when the zombie apocalypse comes and we are eating each others corpses that 40% of survivors will vote tory

Actually

The UK is not the highest death rate in Europe.......yes the highest number of deaths....

But we are not in the top ten with regards deaths per 100000 population...which is the normal indicator of death rate.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 10:21:17
Maybe labour need to go for Andy Burnham or Jonathan ashworth. They seem to know how to talk to people. Labour are a fucking shambles. When was the last time they truly represented the working man, early 70s?
I'd say maybe 2 years ago? But I get your point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 10:25:52
I'd say maybe 2 years ago? But I get your point.
I'd argue labour represented some elite ideology far removed from the working man. They certainly didn't represent me. I understand though how others may feel differently.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 10:28:06
Elite idealogy?

What was 'elite' about their 'ideology', and how did it not represent the working man?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 12:09:07
I think the problem might actually be with "the working man" to some degree. Today's "working man" as it seems to be showing itself via voting intention, is that they don't relate to that version any more? Possibly? Maybe?

Could it be that collectively they have an overinflated value of themselves? When the leader of the nation also styles himself on an overinflated value of himself is it any wonder the average man dreams or thinks this too? Let's face it, if Boris can run the country (or at least front it), every single one of us could have a valid belief that we could too.

I don't know but this just might be a reason why people are continually voting Tory. It can't be because all the oldies are voting, the Tories killed off as many of them as they could with a delayed first lockdown (nice way of chopping the pension wage bill too, bit of disguised genocide there.

As ironic and ridiculous as it sounds, the "working man" now seems/believes/is disillusioned that they are more aligned with a bumbling, gargling, philandering, misogynist, racist bloke with a blue tie more so than they are than one in any other colour tie (regardless of if they act the same, better or worse than the above).

It's baffling to me and I don't think the answer has anything to do with politics/policies/morality or anything remotely relevant to a "better nation". If it were, parties like the Lib Dems and Greens would have been running the country a long time ago. If anything  the "elite ideology" has come from the Tories to which the "working man" now believes they too can become "elite". I refer back to my  "I'm alright jack" statement previously in regards to the "working man".

tl;dr - Basically many of the voting public appear to have become "ten bob millionaires" and couldn't give a fuck about anyone or anything else (until it impacts them directly, which they somehow don't believe could or will ever happen to them). Oh and our nation is probably a lot more racisty than we'd like to admit too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 12:18:21
I think the problem might actually be with "the working man" to some degree. Today's "working man" as it seems to be showing itself via voting intention, is that they don't relate to that version any more? Possibly? Maybe?

Could it be that collectively they have an overinflated value of themselves? When the leader of the nation also styles himself on an overinflated value of himself is it any wonder the average man dreams or thinks this too? Let's face it, if Boris can run the country (or at least front it), every single one of us could have a valid belief that we could too.

I don't know but this just might be a reason why people are continually voting Tory. It can't be because all the oldies are voting, the Tories killed off as many of them as they could with a delayed first lockdown (nice way of chopping the pension wage bill too, bit of disguised genocide there.

As ironic and ridiculous as it sounds, the "working man" now seems/believes/is disillusioned that they are more aligned with a bumbling, gargling, philandering, misogynist, racist bloke with a blue tie more so than they are than one in any other colour tie (regardless of if they act the same, better or worse than the above).

It's baffling to me and I don't think the answer has anything to do with politics/policies/morality or anything remotely relevant to a "better nation". If it were, parties like the Lib Dems and Greens would have been running the country a long time ago. If anything  the "elite ideology" has come from the Tories to which the "working man" now believes they too can become "elite". I refer back to my  "I'm alright jack" statement previously in regards to the "working man".

tl;dr - Basically many of the voting public appear to have become "ten bob millionaires" and couldn't give a fuck about anyone or anything else (until it impacts them directly, which they somehow don't believe could or will ever happen to them). Oh and our nation is probably a lot more racisty than we'd like to admit too.

I think the way the centre parties of lib dem / green / blairrite labour have a fucking awful habit of this sort of paternal condescending bollocks is why the traditional "working man" vote has gone to the right.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 13:36:22
Or they believe the Labour alternative is twice as bad!!



This.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 14:14:45
Okay then. What is this "alternative" that is twice as bad? More investment in the NHS perhaps? Free broadband? Or what?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 14:39:07
Seeing as you lefties love a good newspaper copy and paste article I thought in the light of yesterday’s results you might be vaguely interested in this article. I read this the other week and debated with myself whether or not to post it but it may help you understand why people like me vote conservative. All your populist, nationalist crap does not resonate with me nor people I mix with who not only vote conservative but surprise, surprise, Labour, Lib Dem’s and even Green.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9533269/Heard-one-working-class-stand-comic-proud-Brexit-voting-Tory.html

Of course you can just dismiss it and carry on believing what you do and parroting the mantra that you do. Keep on doing, saying and believing what you do and you’ll carry on making the same mistakes. Do not think for one second that anyone who votes differently to Labour fanatically believes that everything with the conservatives is 100% kosher, it’s not, never has been and never will be. However, in the grand scheme i and others I suspect just simply think that the cunts we vote for are better cunts than the other cunts who we don’t vote for, it really is that simple.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cowley38 on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 16:12:18
Okay then. What is this "alternative" that is twice as bad? More investment in the NHS perhaps? Free broadband? Or what?

Labour has been a shite opposition...

People do not believe they have anything to offer...

It's the same old Labour Lots of false promises they will never be able to achieve...

Along with Kier 'Captain Hindsight Starmer they are the worst opposition ever.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 16:58:23
Labour has been a shite opposition...

People do not believe they have anything to offer...

It's the same old Labour Lots of false promises they will never be able to achieve...

Along with Kier 'Captain Hindsight Starmer they are the worst opposition ever.....

Oh I don’t know, don’t you remember how painful it was when that Tory in Labour clothes was quietly raping the country financially and lining himself up for a future of money making while throwing the doors open to every Tom, Dick and Harry without a thought of how we’d cope with the infrastructure. Let’s also not forget that clown McBrown Mr. I’ve abolished boom and bust and saved the banking world and sneaking off to sign the Lisbon treaty after turncoat Bliar promised we could have a vote on the issue which a Labour politician said was just tinkering around the edges and tidying up existing EU treaties. Lying cunts. Where was our opposition then? Michael Howard, William Hague and IDS hardly inspiring political heavyweights, like a one legged man in an arse kicking contest it made me despair. Now the boot is on the other foot and Labour will have to spend a decade or more in the wilderness. I do agree with you that Starmer is as bigger gift to the conservatives as Long-Bailey would have been. Seems a bit rich that a condescending privately educated millionaire lecturing the electorate (those that listen anyway) that’s it’s those nasty privately educated millionaires on the other side who are the problem. Let’s not forget he headed the CPS under Bliar which was laughingly referred to the Criminal Protection Service. So you see my Labour friends, they’re all cunts and the choice is which cunts you want to put an x against at the polling station.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 17:02:06
Whatever happened to Nigel fararge and the up & coming UK independence party😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 17:46:33
Elite idealogy?

What was 'elite' about their 'ideology', and how did it not represent the working man?

I'm not sure it's a policy issue (most people do not even bother to look at manifesto related stuff), it's more the way Labour comes across as "knowing what's good for you".  Instead of settling on some big ideas and selling them, they talk at and down to people about why they should be happy about what they are selling.

Certainly the Corbyn era didn't help matters, and the left side of the party got a louder voice for a period (which scares the shit out of some people - just look at the mess they were in the late 70's and early 80's).

The Democrats over here are in danger of the same thing - coming across as knowing what's best for you.  Instead of just proposing sensible policies that work to reduce and remove racism, they come across as telling everyone they are racist.  Just one example, there are plenty of others.

This gives the Right Wing version of Populism the ability to point fingers at those horrible Elites trying to run your life, that they are out to get you (fear).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 17:58:51
I think the way the centre parties of lib dem / green / blairrite labour have a fucking awful habit of this sort of paternal condescending bollocks is why the traditional "working man" vote has gone to the right.


Completely agree fb, bamboo that's one of the shittest "hot takes" I've read since I got blocked by Alan Nixon


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 18:16:09
Whatever happened to Nigel fararge and the up & coming UK independence party😀

Doesn’t matter. You see irrespective how you or others derided him and still do (as the tone of your comment suggests) he will have a place in history that 99% of politicians will never ever have, perceived good or bad. Two things about our Nige. 1) When he started out, he stated clearly what his modus operandi was, very clearly indeed. 2) He did exactly what it says on the tin. No fancy ideology, no political baggage. So you see it does not matter does it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 18:20:34
You took my quote all wrong as I was impressed with his policy's when he was gaining momentum and on the verge off contesting the big two but he then disappeared far too quickly just when he was getting noticed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 18:32:21
Oh good, a Labour war between leader and deputy leader. We've not had one of those for a while.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 18:36:39
You took my quote all wrong as I was impressed with his policy's when he was gaining momentum and on the verge off contesting the big two but he then disappeared far too quickly just when he was getting noticed.

Maybe I did and I’m big enough to apologise. But I won’t. Only kidding, I took it as another snipe at the great man. In a way I’m glad he has not had the success domestically he had as a euro MP. Sometimes you have to know when it is time to quit, like an ageing footballer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 18:40:24
Not a snipe by me LL and a shame he didn't carry on as he was becoming a real threat to the big two and who knows where it could have taken him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 18:59:03
my theory , older, poorer  people voting cons , younger more affluent voting lab or green, another ten years boomers like me disappearing  then it may change, always changes, change is constant


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 21:28:49
Completely agree fb, bamboo that's one of the shittest "hot takes" I've read since I got blocked by Alan Nixon

I swear your post was a bit more violent this morning. Something about smacking bamboo about in a pub? Did you get a ninja edit in or am I losing the plot or both or all of the above?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, May 8, 2021, 22:34:25
Spot on. What a load of patronising guff. If bamboo tried spouting any of that bollocks in any of the pubs I used to drink in growing up, he'd get sparked out within the first sentence. Fucking hell.

Ahh see, cruelty disguised under the wrath of thunderous and conventional pious aspirations is much more sly than an honest punch square in the gob. Nice one. Succinct. Bop!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, May 9, 2021, 01:39:40
I'm not sure it's a policy issue (most people do not even bother to look at manifesto related stuff), it's more the way Labour comes across as "knowing what's good for you".  Instead of settling on some big ideas and selling them, they talk at and down to people about why they should be happy about what they are selling.



Fair point, methinks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Sunday, May 9, 2021, 01:50:34
I swear your post was a bit more violent this morning. Something about smacking bamboo about in a pub? Did you get a ninja edit in or am I losing the plot or both or all of the above?

There's been some sort ninjary editing going on or something. I'm a bit lost myself.

The 'non-violent' one was the one I saw before I went out, yet Bamboo has since quoted the 'get sparked out' version - 4 1/2 hours after the original was posted.  :hmmm:

Maybe it's just the time zones fucking with my booze-addled brain?




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Sunday, May 9, 2021, 04:53:19
my theory , older, poorer  people voting cons , younger more affluent voting lab or green, another ten years boomers like me disappearing  then it may change, always changes, change is constant
Which is really all ass about face. I’m a non voter but if I did at my age, 66, I’d be voting Labour for the NHS, pensions etc. If I was younger then perhaps Tory for lower interest rates, mortgage, paying less in tax etc.

I don’t vote for either because, to me, they’re all a bunch of chancers who don’t deserve to be validated by my vote.

I’d much rather have mega devolution down to town/city/county level where the fuckers would, hopefully, be more visible/accountable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Sunday, May 9, 2021, 09:26:24
Probably the biggest problem Labour have is that the Tory party have adopted a big-state, high-spending, higher-tax approach to government. The talk of "levelling up" in the North would suggest it will continue, but we will see on that one, Johnson does seem to want to make it stick though.

Labour really need to work out what their gig is, and to be fair to them that might be quite hard until the pandemic fall out has settled down.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Sunday, May 9, 2021, 10:54:05
Probably the biggest problem Labour have is that the Tory party have adopted a big-state, high-spending, higher-tax approach to government. The talk of "levelling up" in the North would suggest it will continue, but we will see on that one, Johnson does seem to want to make it stick though.

Labour really need to work out what their gig is, and to be fair to them that might be quite hard until the pandemic fall out has settled down.

You should say that to my mate Psycho Trev down the pub! He'd probably agree with you and have a long discussion about labour's failure to find an identity after the re-purging of it's left and it's positional in the political spectrum both relative to the overton window and more absolute terms of apparently abandoning its socialist core.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Sunday, May 9, 2021, 16:25:20
There's been some sort ninjary editing going on or something. I'm a bit lost myself.

The 'non-violent' one was the one I saw before I went out, yet Bamboo has since quoted the 'get sparked out' version - 4 1/2 hours after the original was posted.  :hmmm:

Maybe it's just the time zones fucking with my booze-addled brain?



I did change it, because I thought the reference to getting sparked out was unnecessary, albeit true. Patronising shite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Moss on Sunday, May 9, 2021, 19:07:52
Labour should merge with the Greens. The working class no longer exist in the same way that they did when the party was formed. Racism has been somewhat abandoned by the media savvy element of the Conservative party. The world has moved on. We need a new party for England. Labour is dead.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Sunday, May 9, 2021, 22:50:34
I did change it, because I thought the reference to getting sparked out was unnecessary, albeit true. Patronising shite.

That's rich, coming from you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 10, 2021, 08:40:34
my theory , older, poorer  people voting cons , younger more affluent voting lab or green, another ten years boomers like me disappearing  then it may change, always changes, change is constant

There is a degree of truth in this and its supported by certain research I read ages back. The principle issue seems to be that people tend to be more centrist, left wing and idealist when they are younger, but traditionally the trigger for many to become more right wing is the safety of home owning, now that is becoming less and less of an option for the younger population hence why the demography of Tory voters tends to be getting older, however the point where the Tories benefit, at least up here, is that our population is ageing rapidly as young people go to uni or whatever and then migrate to cities for work, hence the Tories do well in Cumbria as its an aged population who own houses, and this is reflected across the shires.

However, I see that with all the fuss about Hartlepool what has been happening down south has been rather overlooked. BTW this possibly sums up Hartlepool https://twitter.com/resophonick/status/1391288617449005058?s=20

The Tories took quite a kicking in rural Oxfordshire, Surrey, Sussex, Cambridgeshire, Kent, so is this the beginning of the collapse of the old Blue Wall, it seems fuck business does not go down too well with those who depend on London for business and their jobs.

I see even Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells now seems to be disgusted with the Tories.

I will link this which makes interesting reading TL:DR big changes could be a foot for all parties/countries of the Union.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1391318940249382913.html... 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 10, 2021, 08:51:20
Labour should merge with the Greens.

Possibly so, I wish the Greens and LD's would stop being all coy and just get it on if nothing else!

The working class no longer exist in the same way that they did when the party was formed. Racism has been somewhat abandoned by the media savvy element of the Conservative party. The world has moved on. We need a new party for England. Labour is dead.

Indeed, the events of last week just emphasised this point. A young person living in urban rented accommodation with little chance of buying their own house and working as a barista or call centre operative is working class under any meaningful definition of the term, even if they have an arts degree and think that Black Lives Matter. A retired person living in a house they own outright with a guaranteed pension is not working class under any meaningful definition of the term, even if they own several cloth caps and whippets and only eat pie and chips.

The results of last week are all proof that the old fashioned no longer relevant class divide isn't where it's at; it's a culture war. Stockbrokers from Surrey, horrified at what's happening to the City; genteel ladies in leafy Hertfordshire curling their lips at Johnson. Trad working classes mourning the Brexit Party, voting Tory...

I still have to titter at the idea that as Labour are apparently elite, I know I will vote for a party who hierarchy is founded on these social warriors. I understand you might not want to vote for LAbour (I rarely have), but really?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E0zm8XXWQAgl6AJ?format=jpg&name=large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Monday, May 10, 2021, 09:29:19
In the articles I've read about the proposed voter ID law I can't see a benefit case being quoted or an issue being sized and addressed. I do feel slightly gaslit that this is an immediate issue for the government


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 10, 2021, 10:00:30
In the articles I've read about the proposed voter ID law I can't see a benefit case being quoted or an issue being sized and addressed. I do feel slightly gaslit that this is an immediate issue for the government

Govt's own figures suggest that this will knock 2m+ out of the electorate immediately unless they apply for a passport.

So apparently because of covid its no time for a democratically mandated Scottish referendum, but is time to piss around with electoral rules which aren't broke?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, May 10, 2021, 10:32:16
Govt's own figures suggest that this will knock 2m+ out of the electorate immediately unless they apply for a passport.

So apparently because of covid its no time for a democratically mandated Scottish referendum, but is time to piss around with electoral rules which aren't broke?
They've looked at the "success" of similar gerrymandering schemes by the Republicans in the US to further disenfranchise already marginalised voters and said "Yep, we'll have some of that". Massively anti-democratic, expect it to sail through the Commons with stirring articles from all the usual suspects in the press on the "perils" of virtually non-existent voter fraud.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 10, 2021, 10:39:24
They've looked at the "success" of similar gerrymandering schemes by the Republicans in the US to further disenfranchise already marginalised voters and said "Yep, we'll have some of that". Massively anti-democratic, expect it to sail through the Commons with stirring articles from all the usual suspects in the press on the "perils" of virtually non-existent voter fraud.

Talking of the potential for voter fraud, I wonder whether the Electoral Commission are going to look at the massive uplift in turnout in the Tees Mayoral election and the fact that they nearly all the uplift seem to have mysteriously voted Tory.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, May 10, 2021, 10:57:50
Oops! Tory candidate for Wiltshire PCC has been barred after the Tories failed to disclose his drink driving conviction:

https://news.sky.com/story/police-commissioner-candidate-jonathon-seed-bitterly-disappointed-after-being-disbarred-over-30-year-old-drink-drive-conviction-12302315

With the count due to be done today, does it proceed or does the election have to be re-run? If it is the latter, I trust the Tory Party will pay the full cost of the re-run as it is their error (or dishonesty?) that has caused the issue


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Monday, May 10, 2021, 11:15:56
If Seed wins, there'll be a re-run


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, May 10, 2021, 11:52:43
If Seed wins, there'll be a re-run
And will the Tory party who's incompetence/dishonesty caused the need for a re-run pay for it or will they expect the taxpayer to stump up for their fuck-up/deceit? (largely rhetorical question, obviously)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Monday, May 10, 2021, 13:35:33
It seems as if Seed decided he was pulling out of the race and the party were of the opinion they removed him. I'd be happy if they split the costs tbh...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, May 10, 2021, 15:51:31
Seed is a particularly vile piece of shit. A truly horrible man.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, May 10, 2021, 17:09:29
And will the Tory party who's incompetence/dishonesty caused the need for a re-run pay for it or will they expect the taxpayer to stump up for their fuck-up/deceit? (largely rhetorical question, obviously)

Let’s hope they do. It will set a president for everyone else to follow. Which could hurt some of the more skint political parties. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, May 10, 2021, 17:24:51
Seed is a particularly vile piece of shit. A truly horrible man.

Phew, luckily I did not vote for him. So can you tell me/us how lucky we were not voting for him by enlightening us to your view of what an unsavoury individual he apparently is? Aside to his 30 year old conviction for drink driving.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Monday, May 10, 2021, 18:18:15
I didn't like Seed as he was a hunt master and was on record as saying the current hunting laws ought to be done away with entirely. He didn't say the laws ought to be taken away due to being utterly ineffective, he just wanted to legally hunt foxes instead of "trails"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 11:17:54
He was also charged with offences under the Hunting Act and lied about it when questioned. Several of his heavies were arrested for assaults on protestors during his time as Master. He certainly seems to have plenty of experience of commissioning crime although I'm not entirely sure that's what the title of Police and Crime Commissioner is supposed to mean.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 15:33:40
https://davidallengreen.com/2021/05/this-illiberal-queens-speech-is-the-next-step-for-authoritarian-populism-after-brexit/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 15:40:16
https://davidallengreen.com/2021/05/this-illiberal-queens-speech-is-the-next-step-for-authoritarian-populism-after-brexit/
And for the TLDRs:

"Quite the Queen's Speech

Making it possible for the Prime minister to control when a general election takes place, making it harder for people to vote, making it harder to challenge government decisions, and making it harder for anyone to protest about any of this"
https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1392125915543523330

The assaults on democracy continue apace.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 16:06:38
The far left must be fucking livid with envy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 16:11:10
The far left must be fucking livid with envy.

Why, politics tends to by cyclical, what goes around comes around.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 16:14:36
The far left must be fucking livid with envy.

The Far Left wouldn't be adverse to removing democracy either.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 16:31:23
The Far Left wouldn't be adverse to removing democracy either.
I think that was his point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, May 14, 2021, 19:00:17
It would be interesting to know how accurate this shift has been over time  :hmmm:



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, May 14, 2021, 19:29:40
I think that was his point.

You’re wasted on the forum Mr. D. You should have been a politician.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, May 19, 2021, 15:38:18
I see criminal proceedings have been opened against Trumpton. I bet they somehow disappear like they always seem to do with that ass hat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, May 20, 2021, 08:45:34
Caught a bit on the news this morning that the Govt are looking to 'nationalise' the railways. The main bit of interest for me was the introduction of flexible season tickets which will be vital for the partial office/working from home that's likely to be happening later this year. Positive news.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 20, 2021, 08:47:51
Caught a bit on the news this morning that the Govt are looking to nationalise the railways. The main bit of interest for me was the introduction of flexible season tickets which will be vital for the partial office/working from home that's likely to be happening later this year. Positive news.

I work in an adjacent industry - they are a good idea and positive for customers, but I wouldn't hold out great hope of them not being fairly disastrous to get hold of and use to begin with at least.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, May 20, 2021, 08:49:45
I work in an adjacent industry - they are a good idea and positive for customers, but I wouldn't hold out great hope of them not being fairly disastrous to get hold of and use to begin with at least.

Oh absolutely! We are unlikely to be back until September/October anyhow so maybe things might be a little smoother by then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 09:42:12
I don't think 'Dom' is on the PMs Christmas Card list

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-57245479


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 09:50:40
That's Hancock thrown vigorously under the bus first then.....

Hancock "should have been fired for at least 15, 20 things  including lying to everybody on multiple occasions in meeting after meeting in the Cabinet room and publicly."

As noted by Ian Dunt...

"It's a bonfire of bastards going down in that room right now."


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 10:09:11
This has strong echoes of Malcolm Tucker at the enquiry at the end of the Thick of It, just settling scores all over the shop as it becomes clear that everyone involved is a contemptible shit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Panda Paws on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 10:11:19
If everyone involved is equally contemptible, but only one person is willing to burn the thing down, then the results are quite spectacular.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 12:09:59
If everyone involved is equally contemptible, but only one person is willing to burn the thing down, then the results are quite spectacular.

Including the one lighting the match I would say


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 12:26:42
I remember being poo-pooed for saying that the elderly had been deliberately discharged from hospital back to care homes. From today's evidence:

"We only subsequently found out that hadn't happened [testing prior to discharge back to care homes]. The govt rhetoric was we'd put a shield around care homes. Complete nonsense. Quite the opposite of putting a shield around them, we sent people with covid back to the care homes"

https://twitter.com/Richiemay/status/1397526978413072388

The politicians and officials responsible for this are responsible for thousands of unnecessary deaths and should be prosecuted for manslaughter. Just sacking Hancock isn't enough here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 12:31:59
Con (+5)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 12:39:43
Con (+5)
Quite. People laughed when Trump said he could gun someone down on 5th Ave and his base would still vote for him. That's where we are as a country. They've killed 150,000 people, stolen billions and people just shrug it off


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 12:39:48
Con (+5)

I can get why a lot of people don't want to vote for labour.

I don't get why so many are willing to vote for the Tories. It's not a dichotomy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 12:42:27
I can get why a lot of people don't want to vote for labour.

I don't get why so many are willing to vote for the Tories. It's not a dichotomy.


Most people don't vote for them but the right wing side of UK Politics has only really had another party for protesting ahead of the Brexit vote and even then they didn't vote for them in GE's.  I see the impact of two party politics here, so you'd want to avoid that.  A second Right Wing party would be useful and some form of PR.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 12:47:50
'Normal' rules no longer apply.  Politics is tribal now, just like football.  It shouldn't be, but it is.  Johnson won't give a shit.  The fact he's a complete fucking Charlatan is already priced in fully.  There is nothing new here.

I did find it tragically amusing earlier to hear Cummings lamenting a political system that offered up a tawdry choice between Johnson and Corbyn.  No mention, of course, of his own role in the campaign (Vote Leave) that ultimately ushered in the era of populist politics in which these people became electable.

Thousands of people are dead now as a result of 'Get Brexit Done'.  Sad to say, but the public voted for this shitfest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 12:53:27
As the saying goes "In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 12:55:05
What does not sit easy with me is that for the last x amount of years we have been told not to listen or believe a word Cummings ever says but now everything he says must be true to a lot of people... That said there is nothing he has said where you would doubt it is there


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 12:56:29
What does not sit easy with me is that for the last x amount of years we have been told not to listen or believe a word Cummings ever says but now everything he says must be true to a lot of people... That said there is nothing he has said where you would doubt it is there

That one very much cuts both ways! Plenty of side switching, I'm sure plenty of the tory ministers and MPs sent out to defend him post Barnard Castle are a) seething and b) tweeting from a different hymn sheet today!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 13:00:11
What does not sit easy with me is that for the last x amount of years we have been told not to listen or believe a word Cummings ever says but now everything he says must be true to a lot of people... That said there is nothing he has said where you would doubt it is there

I don't doubt a word of what he says about others, but I do doubt he has any idea how to point the finger back at himself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 13:05:58
That one very much cuts both ways! Plenty of side switching, I'm sure plenty of the tory ministers and MPs sent out to defend him post Barnard Castle are a) seething and b) tweeting from a different hymn sheet today!
Very true


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 13:14:53
Quote
What does not sit easy with me is that for the last x amount of years we have been told not to listen or believe a word Cummings ever says but now everything he says must be true to a lot of people... That said there is nothing he has said where you would doubt it is there
his Barnard Castle jaunt excuses were a total crock of shit.

What he is saying today is believable, simply because adds colour to what many said at the time.

Think it's, Johnson will just pooh-poo it and defer it all to the enquiry, where it will be downplayed and glossed over because we should hopefully be in a better place with Covid


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 13:31:16
 :popcorn:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 14:22:40
What does not sit easy with me is that for the last x amount of years we have been told not to listen or believe a word Cummings ever says but now everything he says must be true to a lot of people.
Not at all, most of what he is now saying he is only confirming what was already out there but largely ignored. For example, the discharging of the elderly from COVID wards back into care homes untested which led to thousands of unnecessary deaths was reported at the time, just ignored and dismissed. Most of his claims are quite easily tested - ask the senior civil servants and other officials involved, there's plenty of them.

But there's still plenty of self-serving lies in what he is saying today, glosses over his own malicious actions quite conveniently and seems to be blaming Hancock and Johnson for everything, whereas, for example, Sunak and Gove are balls-deep in all of this too.

That said there is nothing he has said where you would doubt it is there
Well quite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 15:06:28
I wonder what bills or legislation the Government in situ are trying to pass through this week under the screen of "pooh-poohing" Dom 'Where's me glasses' Cummings?  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 17:50:43
Not at all, most of what he is now saying he is only confirming what was already out there but largely ignored. For example, the discharging of the elderly from COVID wards back into care homes untested which led to thousands of unnecessary deaths was reported at the time, just ignored and dismissed. Most of his claims are quite easily tested - ask the senior civil servants and other officials involved, there's plenty of them.

But there's still plenty of self-serving lies in what he is saying today, glosses over his own malicious actions quite conveniently and seems to be blaming Hancock and Johnson for everything, whereas, for example, Sunak and Gove are balls-deep in all of this too.
Well quite.
Not at all to you no but there are alot of people who are now using his words as gospel when they didn't believe a word he said this time last year.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Thursday, May 27, 2021, 06:29:56
I think those within politics are treating DC's comments as a series of bombshells, and pretending they didn't think he was a lying toad last year. But it's juxtaposed by the Tory MP's who have done a 180 on the chap.

I'm inclined to think there's a middle ground where some of what he's said hints at truth, covered in a layer of Boris bad, Sunak good.
I think it definitely warrants an inquest now and not further down the line when as our new messiah DC said "paperwork can be lost and meetings erased"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, May 27, 2021, 16:27:47
What a wank puffin

https://mobile.twitter.com/WinterburnSimon/status/1397944749823234051


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, June 8, 2021, 09:38:07
Interesting(ish) news about the boundary’s redrawing and impact on south Swindon - cutting off Wroughton and associated boundary villages. Would imagine that will make the seat much more competitive moving forward

Given Bobby buckles lives in wroughton, and is fairly active in local affairs for a high profile MP, I would bet he will move across to the new country bumpkin seat which, based on nothing more than lazy stereotypes, I would assume to be a much safer Tory bet.

A seat covering Wroughton to Salisbury gives a new meaning to the phrase ‘local-MP’ mind


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, June 8, 2021, 10:02:01
Interesting(ish) news about the boundary’s redrawing and impact on south Swindon - cutting off Wroughton and associated boundary villages. Would imagine that will make the seat much more competitive moving forward

Given Bobby buckles lives in wroughton, and is fairly active in local affairs for a high profile MP, I would bet he will move across to the new country bumpkin seat which, based on nothing more than lazy stereotypes, I would assume to be a much safer Tory bet.

A seat covering Wroughton to Salisbury gives a new meaning to the phrase ‘local-MP’ mind

Got a link? At the moment, West and Middle Wichel are in Wroughton Parish and East Wichel is in South Swindon Parish


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, June 8, 2021, 10:13:06
Proposed maps are here

https://boundarycommissionforengland.independent.gov.uk/2023-review/south-west/

I’m not sure of the definitions, but looks like all of the ‘main bit’ of wichelstowe that is currently built fall under south Swindon, apart from the houses near Waitrose which fall under east Wiltshire

Chiseldon is also south Swindon. Wroughton, to the west, is east Wiltshire. Simple


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, June 8, 2021, 10:25:24
Cheers


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, June 16, 2021, 11:44:06
Oops

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57498845


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Wednesday, June 16, 2021, 11:57:41
Oops

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57498845

Take the positive, it is the one thing Johnson has got right so in the pandemic


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 16, 2021, 12:09:30
Oops

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57498845

Thing is the reporting is shite, if they are 'apparently' from Johnson the BBC hasn't done due diligence on the story and should not be posting it so quick after release without checking, if they are not 'apparently' then the BBC should say so!

I know its Cummings getting his blows in first, but this bit made me smile as it rather confirmed the impression I have always had of Johnson's abilities..

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4AHlTEVUAUUex_?format=jpg&name=medium)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Wednesday, June 16, 2021, 12:25:13
Remember Boris told us all (and forced other cabinet members to) that Dominic was a thoroughly decent & trustworthy chap who is truthful to the core.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Wednesday, June 16, 2021, 14:37:06
https://dominiccummings.substack.com/p/the-pm-on-hancock-totally-fucking


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, June 18, 2021, 06:33:00
I know by-elections are odd and non predictive but Cons lose Chesham and Amersham in Buckinghamshire to the Lib Dems on a 25 point swing, a majority of 16k becoming an 8k Lib Dem majority.

For all their success in the North, that's going to worry a lot of home counties MPs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, June 18, 2021, 06:39:49
it may be a protest vote, or an outlier, but that's one hell of a swing in a safe seat


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, June 18, 2021, 06:46:46
Apparently the Libdem candidate ran on a NIMBY platform


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, June 18, 2021, 07:05:13
and a HS2 protest


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 18, 2021, 07:07:48
Thing is whilst they have been doing well up north, their southern heartlands have been leeching votes, they did pretty shit in the locals last month darn sarf.

Sent from my SM-A125F


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, June 18, 2021, 07:50:30
Assume a few thousand tactical Labour votes went their way as well


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, June 18, 2021, 08:07:09
Would be good if it's a catalyst.

Hope springs eternal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, June 18, 2021, 08:39:17
Would be good if it's a catalyst.

Hope springs eternal.

Boom, the political page comes to light. Just missing commie Smeatons protege.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 18, 2021, 10:00:46
I was aware of the saga of the missing cash, I wasn't aware there was a political angle to this...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-57525981


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, June 18, 2021, 13:24:58
body hell.

no I didn't know about the political angle either


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, June 25, 2021, 07:30:57
Hancock caught with his pants down.

He'll go far in this Government doing things like that


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, June 25, 2021, 07:33:49
Naughty boy.

Should learn to keep his PPE in his trousers.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, June 25, 2021, 07:38:02
stolen from Twitter: "He really was eating out to help out".

"He's been double jabbing all this time"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Friday, June 25, 2021, 07:48:24
How's he got the fucking time?!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Friday, June 25, 2021, 07:48:31
Taking a lead out of his bosses' book and sleeping with a 'paid advisor'
I'm sure there is another old fashioned word for that?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Friday, June 25, 2021, 07:49:16
How's he got the fucking time?!

By the sound of it, he had lots of fucking time


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Friday, June 25, 2021, 07:58:31
By the sound of it, he had lots of fucking time
Very good! :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, June 25, 2021, 08:29:14
Leaking CCTV footage from his own office suggests that somebody really wants to get him, and it's probably not Cummings.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, June 25, 2021, 08:33:15
Considering the scum published it, I'd hazard a guess that the leak is Gove.

Everything else aside, you'd have to be remarkably thick to be so careless in front of a camera. He must have known it was there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 25, 2021, 08:41:06
Questions for cynical me..

a) Why now, he has been a handy human shield for Johnson for a while, is this just a bloody big dead cat;
b) Questions need to be answered as to how the Scum can get hold of internal government CCTV, even if the source of Gove he hasn't done this alone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Panda Paws on Friday, June 25, 2021, 08:47:30
Considering the scum published it, I'd hazard a guess that the leak is Gove.

Everything else aside, you'd have to be remarkably thick to be so careless in front of a camera. He must have known it was there.

Gove and Cummings are interchangeable at this point. Cummings will "mastermind" Gove to number 10.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, June 25, 2021, 09:01:21
Typically shitty of the scum to have her picture plastered everywhere. I've no sympathy for her, but what about her family? These are details people don't need to know.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, June 25, 2021, 09:06:09
Typically shitty of the scum to have her picture plastered everywhere. I've no sympathy for her, but what about her family? These are details people don't need to know.

And pictures of Hancock's wife going out to the car, zooming in on the wedding ring etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, June 25, 2021, 10:06:43
Fucking weasel telling people to stick to the rules while breaking them himself. Couldn't give a fuck that he cheats on his wife it's the do as I say not as I do, just like Boris, Cummings etc that stinks. Tories are always cunts. Simple as that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, June 25, 2021, 10:41:09
The affair is obviously distasteful and a poor proof of character, but what he should be being dragged through the coals for is handing out taxpayer funded roles to people he’s sleeping with.

His boss did the same though and got no punishment. Corruption is the norm for this government, and the press and the public don’t care


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, June 25, 2021, 11:14:43
Agreed, but I think if he gets hung out to dry in this, the greater good of served


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, June 25, 2021, 11:18:59
A cynic would say Hancock is being thrown under the bus to distract from other things.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 25, 2021, 11:23:21
A cynic would say Hancock is being thrown under the bus to distract from other things.

As I noted above, my first thought was 'why now'?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, June 25, 2021, 11:26:46
It happened about 6-7 weeks ago, so somebody's been sitting on it until then. Unless the video was only recently discovered.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, June 25, 2021, 12:14:50
Clearly stabbed in the back from within but who cares? The public should be aware of this and it shuts up the Tory sycophants and apologists for a while so let's just enjoy watching that cunt squirm.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: cheltred69 on Friday, June 25, 2021, 12:45:42
Crazy if he gets the push for this, behaving in same way as Johnson and numerous others, yet survived for so long through incompetent management of his job! Probably depends on whether he’s served his purpose as Johnson’s fall-guy now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 25, 2021, 12:47:48
Crazy if he gets the push for this, behaving in same way as Johnson and numerous others, yet survived for so long through incompetent management of his job! Probably depends on whether he’s served his purpose as Johnson’s fall-guy now.

Thing is Johnson sacking him would make Johnson a massive hypocrite to sack him, that said Hancock would be a massive hypocrite if he doesn't resign.

So in conclusion nothing will change.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Friday, June 25, 2021, 12:54:48
The affair is obviously distasteful and a poor proof of character, but what he should be being dragged through the coals for is handing out taxpayer funded roles to people he’s sleeping with.

His boss did the same though and got no punishment. Corruption is the norm for this government, and the press and the public don’t care

This is the worst thing almost about all of this.  Everything that this govt gets wrong is largely ignored by the press then forgotten (FFS BJ saying Hancock is fucking useless is yesterdays chip papers now - no one really gives a shit).  Govt "no comment" seems to be a brilliant tactic for anything to be forgotten a couple of days later.  And it is "our fault" - we buy the papers, we vote for these arseholes.

And by way of summing up how shit is is - just look how qualified the folks running the country are to do the job.  You would at least appoint a SoS for Health who just may have some, just a little maybe, experience in Healthcare, not a fucking idiot with a degree in Politics, Philosophy and Economics who worked at Daddy's software company and the the Bank Of England.  And the list goes on - Dildo Harding, my own personal favourite Grant Williamson (or is that Gavin Schapps), such bad appointments only a cretin would think they were sensible.  I guess that is what you get when you elect a failed, philandering journalist with a proven track record of lying and deceit as PM.  



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 25, 2021, 13:01:49
my own personal favourite Grant Williamson

Gavin's brother?  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chunkyhair on Friday, June 25, 2021, 13:05:05
Gavin's brother?  ;)

 :D :D :D You got me.

When they are interchageable dickheads it is easy to mix 'em up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 13:53:57
https://twitter.com/OFalafel/status/1408539929798483972?s=19

Sent from my SM-A125F


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 16:21:01
https://twitter.com/OFalafel/status/1408539929798483972?s=19

Sent from my SM-A125F

Brilliant dub. Helllooooooo!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 17:18:43
Hancock gone


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 17:20:33
Plenty of time to shag his mistress now!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 17:33:50
Hancock gone

Good.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 17:38:12
No more pink ties


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 17:59:55
I would say Johnson should be out as well, but that appears to have caused this curfuffle in the first place


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 18:28:08
Cummings for prime minister😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 18:48:27
Cummings for prime minister😀

Keir Stammer for PM 🤭


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 18:54:34
I haven't seen him since getting ejected from the Bath pub!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 18:59:55
The video was horrific.  Made my eyes bleed.  He had all the technique & finess of an awkward 13 year old getting his first snog at the school disco.

And then there's the picture of him at university sporting the rugger-top-with-tweed-jacket look.  That alone should have barred him from future office.

I still can't quite fathom why people consent to be governed by these pricks.  Good riddance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 19:02:40
Maybe his real name is Mike Coxlong


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 19:08:19
Sajid javid gets the job.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 19:08:52
The video was horrific.  Made my eyes bleed.  He had all the technique & finess of an awkward 13 year old getting his first snog at the school disco.

And then there's the picture of him at university sporting the rugger-top-with-tweed-jacket look.  That alone should have barred him from future office.

I still can't quite fathom why people consent to be governed by these pricks.  Good riddance.

The video looked fake and made me feel nauseous just like Cummings last year


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 19:10:50
I still can't quite fathom why people consent to be governed by these pricks.  

It indeed appears to be a Tory trait, being governed by their pricks


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 19:20:05
Hancock gone

Had his half hour. I'm hearing he's being lined up for the next season of "I'm a Celebrity...".

All contracts apparently signed and sealed with a loving kiss...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 19:32:12
It indeed appears to be a Tory trait, being governed by their pricks
If you think it's just politicians from one party that behave like that then you are sadly blinkered!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 21:33:19
If you think it's just politicians from one party that behave like that then you are sadly blinkered!

Best comment for ages. Sadly there are a number of blinkered individuals on this forum who wouldn’t believe you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 21:43:30
Best not name them  :no:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 21:55:43
Best not name them  :no:

Oh no need, they identify themselves on a regular basis.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 22:02:24
Daily mail readers!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dogs on Saturday, June 26, 2021, 22:37:55
Coup to you


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Sunday, June 27, 2021, 06:39:38
Made I larf

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XPAoAMsJuxE


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 15, 2021, 23:16:14
GB News (https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/15/gb-news-shows-attracted-zero-viewers-after-boycott-over-taking-the-knee)

I can't tell you how happy it would make me to see this horrible echo chamber of intolerance die on its arse & fold.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Quagmire on Friday, July 16, 2021, 06:15:11
GB News (https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/15/gb-news-shows-attracted-zero-viewers-after-boycott-over-taking-the-knee)

I can't tell you how happy it would make me to see this horrible echo chamber of intolerance die on its arse & fold.

It won’t see out the year. I see there were times this week where the channel had literally zero viewers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 16, 2021, 09:15:52
GB News (https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/15/gb-news-shows-attracted-zero-viewers-after-boycott-over-taking-the-knee)

I can't tell you how happy it would make me to see this horrible echo chamber of intolerance die on its arse & fold.

https://newsthump.com/2021/07/16/gb-news-audience-plummets-after-footage-emerges-of-andrew-neil-being-polite-to-a-muslim/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, July 21, 2021, 18:48:53
David Frost, Brexit chief negotiator and architect of the NI Protocol, in 'Brexit: it's a bit shit really, isn't it?' shocker.

Brexit: UK Wants to Redraw Northern Ireland Protocol (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57911148)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, August 16, 2021, 09:52:19
Afghanistan:

Billions spent. Thousands of troops' lives lost.

And for what? If anything they seem to have made things worse. When will leaders learn? Gotta feel for the people of Kabul.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Monday, August 16, 2021, 10:06:56
It's terrible what's happening in Afghanistan and lessons were never learnt from when Russia gave up and pulled out


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, August 16, 2021, 10:33:22
indeed.

just waiting for Patel to deport Afghan asylum seekers and the government's balls up will be complete


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Monday, August 16, 2021, 11:14:27
It's terrible what's happening in Afghanistan and lessons were never learnt from when Russia gave up and pulled out

Or even from the last time we invaded (before the Ruskies).

History tells us that the local fighters will retreat to the mountains, wait until the invaders leave & the come back & take over.

I’m assuming they are being armed by the Russians, in the same way the west armed them in the 80s


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Monday, August 16, 2021, 11:26:12
Or even from the last time we invaded (before the Ruskies).

History tells us that the local fighters will retreat to the mountains, wait until the invaders leave & the come back & take over.

I’m assuming they are being armed by the Russians, in the same way the west armed them in the 80s

Spot on with your comments and it's one of those situations where there dosen't seem to be a solution


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Monday, August 16, 2021, 11:52:06
Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great knew not to invade Afghanistan.  A lesson us Brits (repeatedly), the Americans and Soviets didn't learn. Although the Soviets get dragged in and knew it was a bad idea.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Monday, August 16, 2021, 11:53:16
What happened to the 300k strong Afghan army?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Boy About Town on Monday, August 16, 2021, 12:14:40
What happened to the 300k strong Afghan army?

Were not being paid.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, August 19, 2021, 21:03:40
Tsk, tsk.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9909023/Ex-Labour-MP-Jared-OMara-charged-fraud-false-representation.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, August 20, 2021, 19:53:47
What happened to the 300k strong Afghan army?

Made up like Sadam Hussain's huge army in 1990


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, August 30, 2021, 18:08:03
Good ole Jo Biden. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, September 3, 2021, 08:20:16
National insurance going up to fund social care provision. Something needs to be done about social care, but increasing a working age tax to fund the retired is a pretty clear wealth transfer between working age people and the already retired. I suppose it makes sense not to penalise the group that votes for you overwhelmingly if you're the government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, September 3, 2021, 08:29:12
Need to get rid of, or at the very least temporarily postpone, the triple lock


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 3, 2021, 08:33:16
Need to get rid of, or at the very least temporarily postpone, the triple lock

I refer you to this line from our learned friend above

I suppose it makes sense not to penalise the group that votes for you overwhelmingly if you're the government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, September 3, 2021, 08:34:26
Good ole Jo Biden. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

At the risk of being seen as 'ageist' I can't see how the president of the US (Obama aside) can be so old.  In most walks of life you have to have retired by the age of 70 or so and Joe is 78? I've no huge interest in what happens in the States but there was a clip of Biden talking about climate change and he couldn't put together a coherent sentence without getting words mixed up. I can't see him lasting his term.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, September 3, 2021, 08:35:38
National insurance going up to fund social care provision. Something needs to be done about social care, but increasing a working age tax to fund the retired is a pretty clear wealth transfer between working age people and the already retired. I suppose it makes sense not to penalise the group that votes for you overwhelmingly if you're the government.

Also an opportunity to shift blame onto poor elderly people as opposed to the government's rich mates who are raking it in.

Kill two birds with one stone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, September 3, 2021, 08:54:23
I really don't mind paying a bit more tax if it means I get treated better should I get old enough to need it.

personally think it's a slippery slope pushing funding on those that consume it now.

the old people have paid national insurance all their life, the mess isn't their fault


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, September 3, 2021, 11:02:08
I really don't mind paying a bit more tax if it means I get treated better should I get old enough to need it.

personally think it's a slippery slope pushing funding on those that consume it now.

the old people have paid national insurance all their life, the mess isn't their fault

But they clearly haven’t paid enough?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, September 3, 2021, 11:04:48
right, done haven't, but it should have been addressed by successive governments.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Broadbents Tackle on Friday, September 3, 2021, 11:05:20
But they clearly haven’t paid enough?

They weren't paying for themselves, they were paying for the pensioners during their working lifetimes. That's how it works.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, September 3, 2021, 11:07:49
National insurance going up to fund social care provision. Something needs to be done about social care, but increasing a working age tax to fund the retired is a pretty clear wealth transfer between working age people and the already retired. I suppose it makes sense not to penalise the group that votes for you overwhelmingly if you're the government.
Well, when the majority of families don’t give a toss about looking after elderly relatives, then they must be prepared to pay someone else to do it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 3, 2021, 11:38:39
So full details of Operation London Bridge have been leaked to a government friendly journalist, one has to wonder why now?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Friday, September 3, 2021, 14:18:36
I really don't mind paying a bit more tax
I know it's a selective quote but on this point I agree. I just don't trust any government from the last 2 decades to actually use the money in the right way


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, September 3, 2021, 14:28:06
ah yes. that's a different story


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, September 3, 2021, 15:06:38
So full details of Operation London Bridge have been leaked to a government friendly journalist, one has to wonder why now?

To the great and the good and everyone else, there has been a plan in place since HM The Queen was crowned. Furthermore there are plans in place for all royals and in an expose to all you lefties the Prime minister too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, September 3, 2021, 15:08:43
As shown by operation Forth Bridge.

I think this is in the news because the updated plans were leaked in far greater detail than ever before


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, September 3, 2021, 15:12:03
To the great and the good and everyone else, there has been a plan in place since HM The Queen was crowned. Furthermore there are plans in place for all royals and in an expose to all you lefties the Prime minister too.

I think you've missed the point.

We know there's a plan in place. The question is, why are the details being leaked now?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, September 3, 2021, 15:12:36
But they clearly haven’t paid enough?

That assumes that contributions over their lifetimes had been ringfenced...which they won't have been.  I do agree that there is a big (& growing) problem with generational fairness.  But it's fiendishly difficult to address.

There will be a tipping point fairly soon when the generation that missed out on being able to buy a home, for example, reaches the age where they start holding many of the levers of power.  Will be interesting to watch when that happens.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 3, 2021, 15:33:33
That assumes that contributions over their lifetimes had been ringfenced...which they won't have been.  I do agree that there is a big (& growing) problem with generational fairness.  But it's fiendishly difficult to address.

There will be a tipping point fairly soon when the generation that missed out on being able to buy a home, for example, reaches the age where they start holding many of the levers of power.  Will be interesting to watch when that happens.

I think the issue is more (as you have suggested) the means of funding being suggested as NI proportionally affects the poorly paid much worse than say a tax rise.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2021/07/boris-johnson-s-social-care-plan-would-leave-poorest-subsidising-wealthiest?s=09

To the great and the good and everyone else, there has been a plan in place since HM The Queen was crowned. Furthermore there are plans in place for all royals and in an expose to all you lefties the Prime minister too.

Think you may have rather mislaid the point here?

Never ceases to give me a smile that to your compass I am some sort of leftie, that being me who has never voted Labour in my life (disclaimed I may have done so in 97, I don't remember back that far!)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, September 3, 2021, 15:35:39
Communist Party?  :sherlock:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 3, 2021, 15:39:59
Communist Party?  :sherlock:

Have you ever been to rural Cumbria......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, September 3, 2021, 15:48:24
Communist Party?  :sherlock:

It may surprise you but I don’t own a compass. On a separate point I actually don’t give a fuck what you do or don’t think about what I post or what you think I think. Same goes for everyone else for that matter especially after all the shit posted and directed in mine and others directions after the last two general elections and the EU vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: cheltred69 on Friday, September 3, 2021, 15:58:30
That assumes that contributions over their lifetimes had been ringfenced...which they won't have been.  I do agree that there is a big (& growing) problem with generational fairness.  But it's fiendishly difficult to address.

There will be a tipping point fairly soon when the generation that missed out on being able to buy a home, for example, reaches the age where they start holding many of the levers of power.  Will be interesting to watch when that happens.
I don't think there's a whole generation that's missed out on buying a home. Certainly home ownership has become less affordable for the masses than it was 30-40 years ago, but those wielding the levers of power are generally the wealthier and more privileged who if anything will be feeling more comfortable in compassion to their peers. Wealth inequality within a generation has grown and it will only get worse in future as impacts of automation start to replace many jobs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, September 3, 2021, 16:48:04
I'm not sure how we would cope with 14.5% interest rate like we had in the early 90's plus a lot of the younger generation make new iPhones etc their main priority eating into their disposable income.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jevs on Friday, September 3, 2021, 17:15:55
That assumes that contributions over their lifetimes had been ringfenced...which they won't have been.  I do agree that there is a big (& growing) problem with generational fairness.  But it's fiendishly difficult to address.

There will be a tipping point fairly soon when the generation that missed out on being able to buy a home, for example, reaches the age where they start holding many of the levers of power.  Will be interesting to watch when that happens.

You're suggesting that poor people will start holding the levers of power? I wouldn't hold your breath.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: AMayesIng on Friday, September 3, 2021, 17:44:34
I think something needs to be done about Social Care; it's not fair or consistent for Health to be free at the point of need but Social Care to be means tested for everything. You can end up with ridiculous situations in the grey area between the two (e.g. dementia care) where if it's classed as 'health' it costs £0 but if not £,00000s. NI is probably the worst choice, as it isnt paid on Pensions (even generous final salary ones). The thing that upsets and concerns most elderly home owners is the random chance factor, 2 out of 3 people will pass pretty much their whole home to their kids, 1 out 3 almost nothing. Pot luck. I think most (not all, some people are greedy selfish bastards) elderly home owners would actually be quite happy for a big increase in Inheritance Tax if it meant that were protected from losing it all. That seems fairest to me. I think T May tried to suggest something like that, the media crucified her for it and it was binned. Boris is far too much of a populist to do the right , difficult thing here (or, indeed, ever)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, September 3, 2021, 18:02:05
Soylent Green is probably the long term answer to the social care problem.
A solution that might be favoured on the quiet by the majority of under 40's.
Probably by the government as well if they thought that they could get away with it.
Would also solve the post Brexit supply issue of certain foodstuffs as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, September 3, 2021, 18:09:34
Soylent Green is probably the long term answer to the social care problem.


They'd be a bit chewy, though?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, September 3, 2021, 18:20:06
They'd be a bit chewy, though?

 :) Get the seasoning right and it won't be a problem.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, September 6, 2021, 09:41:01
National insurance going up to fund social care provision. Something needs to be done about social care, but increasing a working age tax to fund the retired is a pretty clear wealth transfer between working age people and the already retired. I suppose it makes sense not to penalise the group that votes for you overwhelmingly if you're the government.

Since leaving the EU we should have an extra 10.6 billion. Can't we use some of that to fund this?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 6, 2021, 09:42:13
Since leaving the EU we should have an extra 10.6 billion. Can't we use some of that to fund this?

Cheeky.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, September 6, 2021, 09:49:15
Quote
Since leaving the EU we should have an extra 10.6 billion. Can't we use some of that to fund this?

Quote from: horlock07
Cheeky Bus-tard.....

fify


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, September 9, 2021, 09:19:21
Paul Gambaccini very animated on BBC regarding Met Police corruption and BBC coverups. It could be a very interesting time for Cressida.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 9, 2021, 13:31:18
Paul Gambaccini very animated on BBC regarding Met Police corruption and BBC coverups. It could be a very interesting time for Cressida.

This approach seems a bit extreme though.

(https://scontent.fman4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/241659431_4743797432331889_8666358718338360782_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_rgb565=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=u8qyC6TgcQsAX8pHanF&tn=NCsx_8rXnYHCMiGP&_nc_ht=scontent.fman4-2.fna&oh=d3e561b96fa6c462ee1d836b314a5195&oe=613E27D8)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, September 9, 2021, 13:43:57
This approach seems a bit extreme though.

(https://scontent.fman4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/241659431_4743797432331889_8666358718338360782_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_rgb565=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=u8qyC6TgcQsAX8pHanF&tn=NCsx_8rXnYHCMiGP&_nc_ht=scontent.fman4-2.fna&oh=d3e561b96fa6c462ee1d836b314a5195&oe=613E27D8)

Harsh on Charlie boy!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, September 9, 2021, 17:12:52
Paul Gambaccini very animated on BBC regarding Met Police corruption and BBC coverups. It could be a very interesting time for Cressida.

He and many others have every right to be ‘animated’ as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 13:03:50
Bobby Buckland seems to be being reshuffled out of the government, for people who want the local angle.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 13:10:04
Bobby Buckland seems to be being reshuffled out of the government, for people who want the local angle.

Rumour being that he has been shunted out to create a space for Raab.

Williamson sacked from education and offered NI (I am not joking!)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 13:21:28

Williamson sacked from education and offered NI (I am not joking!)

What could possibly go wrong?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 13:45:46
What could possibly go wrong?

I think he turned it down (understandably as its a bit of a graveyard for careers) but rather illustrates how little interest the govt have in NI.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 14:23:29
Unlucky  Fuckland


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 15:15:29
Unlucky  Fuckland

Calling him that, reminded me of this...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JKpdWt2iN4A


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 16:35:40
Glad to see Brown Nosed Bobby Buckland got the boot. Party line towing twat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 16:55:59
"Nadine Dorries is secretary of state for culture, media and sport"

Jesus wept.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 19:27:44
Just thought I’d pop in with a bowl of popcorn to see how things are going. Glad to see normality has resumed after the worst of the pandemic appears to be over.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, September 16, 2021, 08:00:36
I think something needs to be done about Social Care; it's not fair or consistent for Health to be free at the point of need but Social Care to be means tested for everything. You can end up with ridiculous situations in the grey area between the two (e.g. dementia care) where if it's classed as 'health' it costs £0 but if not £,00000s. NI is probably the worst choice, as it isnt paid on Pensions (even generous final salary ones). The thing that upsets and concerns most elderly home owners is the random chance factor, 2 out of 3 people will pass pretty much their whole home to their kids, 1 out 3 almost nothing. Pot luck. I think most (not all, some people are greedy selfish bastards) elderly home owners would actually be quite happy for a big increase in Inheritance Tax if it meant that were protected from losing it all. That seems fairest to me. I think T May tried to suggest something like that, the media crucified her for it and it was binned. Boris is far too much of a populist to do the right , difficult thing here (or, indeed, ever)
Interesting comments.

Your IHT suggestion would be a wonderfully fair way of tackling the random inequities of the dementia fee burden.

It will not of course happen.

At present, with no particular planning, the survivor of a married couple can leave circa £650k free of IHT  (The balance is taxed at 40%).

Thus the type of "capitalist" twatted by the Dementia Tax is the League 1 or 2 capitalist owning an average home with modest savings.  That capitalist risks wipeout.

Meanwhile the less prudent or less fortunate receive their care for free whilst the wealthier are easily able to fund their care from investments, immediate care plans purchased (// an annuity) and where any capital diminishment is effectively saving them the 40% IHT it would otherwise have suffered.

I'm against all tax but let's be clear the Tories will always prefer to tax the aspirational small savers and home owners ahead of the wealthy.  IMO, it's about time that more of Thatcher's Council House home owners and other prudent, hard working but unprivileged voters realised the Tories (as well as Labour) are not their true friends.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, September 22, 2021, 10:43:44
I see the Labour Party are heading into conference season focussing on the real enemies hurting this country - the other side of the Labour Party

It’s so fucking frustrating. This current government continually prove themselves dangerously inept (based on competence at governing, not even ideologically speaking), but huge parts of the largest opposition party would rather not win at all if the win wasn’t completely ‘pure’, so continually eat themselves. Daft student politics morons


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Monday, September 27, 2021, 13:19:30
I see the Labour Party are heading into conference season focussing on the real enemies hurting this country - the other side of the Labour Party

It’s so fucking frustrating. This current government continually prove themselves dangerously inept (based on competence at governing, not even ideologically speaking), but huge parts of the largest opposition party would rather not win at all if the win wasn’t completely ‘pure’, so continually eat themselves. Daft student politics morons

Couldn't agree more. It makes my blood boil. I can't help but feel that in the current climate, if someone was to have an actual fucking opinion and dare oppose or speak against the current regime, they'd be electable and, I think, have a huge majority were it possible to bypass the media machine.

Better to stand for something, put it out there and be both loved and hated, than just be a small half-glass of flat tonic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, September 27, 2021, 18:46:06
I share your disillusion.  It's so disappointing.

There can't be any precedent for this.  The Conservatives have been in power for 11+ years, failing to deliver the basics on so many levels - and yet the Opposition are nowhere.

Labour have 12 to 18 months, at best, to get a grip.  Otherwise, another Tory win in 2024 looks like the most likely outcome - which takes them out to 2029.  Another 8 yrs of this?!  Fucking hell.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, September 27, 2021, 18:55:22
I'm no corbynite. But he pointed out that there are now more food banks than McDonald's.

I don't care which measure you use, that's failing the basics


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, September 27, 2021, 20:16:53
I supported Starmer when he became Labour leader, and wanted him to succeed.  But two developments today have been the final straw(s) for me.  First, Rachel Reeves confirmed Labour wouldn't argue for a return to Free Movement - even though Starmer campaigned on that platform during the leadership election.  And now the party has reaffirmed it's commitment to the FPTP status quo - despite the party membership being in favour of PR.

Difficult to see where they go from here.  The divisions are just too deep.  The Tories managed to remove their own divisions by purging their pro-EU wing in 2019.  One way or another, Labour needs to do something similar.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 28, 2021, 08:08:57
I supported Starmer when he became Labour leader, and wanted him to succeed.  But two developments today have been the final straw(s) for me.  First, Rachel Reeves confirmed Labour wouldn't argue for a return to Free Movement - even though Starmer campaigned on that platform during the leadership election.  And now the party has reaffirmed it's commitment to the FPTP status quo - despite the party membership being in favour of PR.

Difficult to see where they go from here.  The divisions are just too deep.  The Tories managed to remove their own divisions by purging their pro-EU wing in 2019.  One way or another, Labour needs to do something similar.

Its a mess, they have seemed to (in electoral terms) swung to the complete polar opposite of the Corbyn years in that they are vying only for the votes of the 52% and ignoring their core base and the centre. So much as Corbyn and his supporters seemed (and appear to still seem) unable to grasp that appealing to c.400k members won't get you elected under the system we have, likewise now the battle ground seems to have shifted to the red wall voters and looking at polling for now Johnson could place forward a policy of  murdering your first born and that won't shift voters away from him.

The Tory purge started after 2016 and was helped by all the macerations after that, just a pity its cost the country so many billions to address their internal problems.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, September 28, 2021, 15:06:40
Well, looking from the outside I’d say it’s all going swimmingly well. The electorate are lots of things but I doubt they would have taken the comments of that uncouth mouthpiece Angry Raynor as lightly as her labour colleagues seem to have. I’d have expected uproar and death threats if a serving Conservative MP had said the things she has said.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 28, 2021, 16:13:44
Well, looking from the outside I’d say it’s all going swimmingly well. The electorate are lots of things but I doubt they would have taken the comments of that uncouth mouthpiece Angry Raynor as lightly as her labour colleagues seem to have. I’d have expected uproar and death threats if a serving Conservative MP had said the things she has said.

I think its all a bit of a wait and see to be honest, they seem pretty sanguine about a senior Tory saying 'We are at last experiencing a new empire, an empire where the happy South stamps over the cruel, dirty toothless face of the northerner.'? What will bite more, a tax hike and a UC cut on top of soaring living costs v. some naughty words?

The worry for the government is that due to the present shit show they are starting to lose the faithful rags (to an initial degree but it follows the early 90's trends which hamstrung Major). Whilst the Telegraph is still loyal they have started mocking the government, likewise the Mail.

What will count up here is levelling up (shambles so far and a sound bite that is not remotely possible), the planning stuff is nibbling Tory arses in the home counties, if the fuel chaos continues, what happens after Christmas (if they can actually get any lorry drivers into the country) and what happens in April when the fuel prices shit properly clatters the fan. What will help the Tories hugely round here is the gerrymandering boundary changes as that is lumping together some very uncomfortable bedfellows.

Intertsing times ahead for those of us lucky enough to be able to (at least without a life shock) weather it for now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, September 28, 2021, 17:55:35
I think its all a bit of a wait and see to be honest, they seem pretty sanguine about a senior Tory saying 'We are at last experiencing a new empire, an empire where the happy South stamps over the cruel, dirty toothless face of the northerner.'? What will bite more, a tax hike and a UC cut on top of soaring living costs v. some naughty words?

The worry for the government is that due to the present shit show they are starting to lose the faithful rags (to an initial degree but it follows the early 90's trends which hamstrung Major). Whilst the Telegraph is still loyal they have started mocking the government, likewise the Mail.

What will count up here is levelling up (shambles so far and a sound bite that is not remotely possible), the planning stuff is nibbling Tory arses in the home counties, if the fuel chaos continues, what happens after Christmas (if they can actually get any lorry drivers into the country) and what happens in April when the fuel prices shit properly clatters the fan. What will help the Tories hugely round here is the gerrymandering boundary changes as that is lumping together some very uncomfortable bedfellows.

Intertsing times ahead for those of us lucky enough to be able to (at least without a life shock) weather it for now.

 I knew I’d flush one of you out 😁

Horlock, firstly two wrongs don’t make a right. Secondly, I wasn’t aware of that comment, new one on me. Thirdly I’m surprised you hard northern bastards took offence. Fourthly, I could be wrong but didn’t you espouse the term ‘what aboutery’ not that long ago? Tsk, tsk, tsk. To finish, Labour are unelectable, you must see that because the country can and in spite of the errors over covid I cannot in all honesty say I know anyone personally who thought that had Labour been in charge things would have been handled any better. Enjoy your evening.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Wednesday, September 29, 2021, 06:10:17
I despise the sort of politics Angela Raynor deals in. I don't think that shouting, ranting and name calling is appropriate for leaders in society. It just signals to the masses that this is the appropriate way to behave. Berate people, shout them down, don't listen to anyone else's point of view. It just ends badly imho.

We currently have an unelectable opposition that continues to place itself too far to left and a serving government that is too far to the right. The lot in the middle remain irrelevant.

I'm hoping something changes soon to restore the balance and put the country back on track. But I'm struggling to see how and when that is going to happen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, September 29, 2021, 08:22:32
I despise the sort of politics Angela Raynor deals in. I don't think that shouting, ranting and name calling is appropriate for leaders in society. It just signals to the masses that this is the appropriate way to behave. Berate people, shout them down, don't listen to anyone else's point of view. It just ends badly imho.


The Angela Raynor incident left a nasty taste. Whatever a politician thinks of Boris I don't think using language that she did is anything like appropriate. You have to be more professional than that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 29, 2021, 09:20:37
I despise the sort of politics Angela Raynor deals in. I don't think that shouting, ranting and name calling is appropriate for leaders in society. It just signals to the masses that this is the appropriate way to behave. Berate people, shout them down, don't listen to anyone else's point of view. It just ends badly imho.

We currently have an unelectable opposition that continues to place itself too far to left and a serving government that is too far to the right. The lot in the middle remain irrelevant.

I'm hoping something changes soon to restore the balance and put the country back on track. But I'm struggling to see how and when that is going to happen.

Its just playing to the crowd appealing to the voter base, they are all at it its basic politics. We have all the culture wars stuff because that appeals to many Tory voters and much of the rise of nationalism/racism etc can be attributed to the comments of various senior politicians making such viewpoints mainstream and acceptable.

Who knows where Labour are going some suggest that they are using the current lull before gearing up to an election in 2024 to get the house more in order but then again its just a mess. Its gonna be a very different world in 12 months time let alone 3 years.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Wednesday, September 29, 2021, 10:19:47
The Angela Raynor incident left a nasty taste. Whatever a politician thinks of Boris I don't think using language that she did is anything like appropriate. You have to be more professional than that.
That was a cynical future leadership bid which might come pretty soon given that the Tories have given labour repeated open goals and starmwr is a latter day Shaun close.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, September 29, 2021, 10:53:01
Its just playing to the crowd appealing to the voter base, they are all at it its basic politics. We have all the culture wars stuff because that appeals to many Tory voters and much of the rise of nationalism/racism etc can be attributed to the comments of various senior politicians making such viewpoints mainstream and acceptable.

Who knows where Labour are going some suggest that they are using the current lull before gearing up to an election in 2024 to get the house more in order but then again its just a mess. Its gonna be a very different world in 12 months time let alone 3 years.



‘Its just playing to the crowd appealing to the voter base’ Oh is it? Ah well that’s ok then. So all the other crass comments she and a few other Labour MPs recently are ok? Along with the ones made by the odd Conservative MP?

Sorry mate just not good enough. Bear pit politics is one thing what you appear to be at best dismissing and at worst condoning is wrong on so many levels, plain and simple.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 29, 2021, 11:11:29
‘Its just playing to the crowd appealing to the voter base’ Oh is it? Ah well that’s ok then. So all the other crass comments she and a few other Labour MPs recently are ok? Along with the ones made by the odd Conservative MP?

Sorry mate just not good enough. Bear pit politics is one thing what you appear to be at best dismissing and at worst condoning is wrong on so many levels, plain and simple.

Setting aside the fact that I wasn't dismissing nor condoning what she said and I agree that two wrongs do not make a right, yet you are still banging on about what she said whilst dismissing what other politicians you like have said, which is entirely your prerogative but rather removes the scope for the moral upper ground to be taken....

All this is just another of those stories that show that people should reach for the dictionary rather than take it as read as in the clap-trap in the right wing press. So for a quick Google what does these sources say about "SCUM" ... one said "immoral person" which leads to the question of what does immoral really mean, well from Collins the following comes up:

ADJECTIVE
1. transgressing accepted moral rules; corrupt. (donations for honours or perhaps those dodgy PPE contracts just for starters)
2. sexually dissolute; profligate or promiscuous (the list of extra martial behaviour from Johnson is all one needs to say)
3. unscrupulous or unethical . . . . and on and on the list is extensive and if the blinkered can't or won't see it it's really is their problem not mine.

On a wider level I am not sure how this 'lady said a naughty word'  precious pearl clutching sits with the 'Non PC straight talking' image you like to portray?  Perhaps its just us northerners* have a thicker skin than you cockneys :D ;)

* I will never be a northerner as I don't have at least three generations of background up here, we will forever be known as offcomers by the locals!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, September 29, 2021, 11:19:45
All this is just another of those stories that show that people should reach for the dictionary rather than take it as read as in the clap-trap in the right wing press. So for a quick Google what does these sources say about "SCUM" ... one said "immoral person" which leads to the question of what does immoral really mean, well from Collins the following comes up:

ADJECTIVE
1. transgressing accepted moral rules; corrupt. (donations for honours or perhaps those dodgy PPE contracts just for starters)
2. sexually dissolute; profligate or promiscuous (the list of extra martial behaviour from Johnson is all one needs to say)
3. unscrupulous or unethical . . . . and on and on the list is extensive and if the blinkered can't or won't see it it's really is their problem not mine.

Not sure how this precious pearl clutching sits with the 'Non PC straight talking' ?  :D ;)

Pearl clutching? Yeah I’m straight talking, but I’m not spiteful, poisonous or full of bile. I don’t expect public figures who represent the people to be that either. For the record it actually sits quiet well, I don’t like it but she and a number of others in the left wing nasty party can carry on. Who’s party is in No.10? Who’s party is not likely to win the next GE? 😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, September 29, 2021, 11:49:46
What about the prime minister conspiring to have a journalist beaten up?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, September 29, 2021, 21:26:36
What about the prime minister conspiring to have a journalist beaten up?

Yeah, you’re right, Tony Blair was a prize cunt, only outdone by Corbyn and his renta mob Momentum. The Jewish community speaks highly of him as well I understand.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Wednesday, September 29, 2021, 21:33:45
That was a cynical future leadership bid which might come pretty soon given that the Tories have given labour repeated open goals and starmwr is a latter day Shaun close.

The last part of your sentence is genius.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jevs on Thursday, September 30, 2021, 06:44:38
Yeah, you’re right, Tony Blair was a prize cunt, only outdone by Corbyn and his renta mob Momentum. The Jewish community speaks highly of him as well I understand.

I'm not on a wind up, and I'm long since sick of the nest of vipers that is the Labour Party, but do you actually like Conservative policies, or just hate Labour? Personally I'm a devout member of the none of the above party; Labour being shite is not reason enough to support Tories.

Labour are totally disconnected with their traditional support and if they think thick as mince momentum types like Rayner and Buregeon are going to appeal to their lost northern voters they are doomed (they might already be without a majority in Scotland). British and US politics have seem like a good argument for totalitarian regimes; what sort of choice is Johnson v Corbyn or Trump v Biden?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, September 30, 2021, 10:39:28
I'm not on a wind up, and I'm long since sick of the nest of vipers that is the Labour Party, but do you actually like Conservative policies, or just hate Labour? Personally I'm a devout member of the none of the above party; Labour being shite is not reason enough to support Tories.

Labour are totally disconnected with their traditional support and if they think thick as mince momentum types like Rayner and Buregeon are going to appeal to their lost northern voters they are doomed (they might already be without a majority in Scotland). British and US politics have seem like a good argument for totalitarian regimes; what sort of choice is Johnson v Corbyn or Trump v Biden?

As a working class ex council house kid who has made a decent fist of my life so far I’d say that I detest the Labour sham that they support the working class. Happily (along with an element in the Conservative party) were happy to lie and give away my country to the EU ponzi scheme. Common market 100% EU, not a chance. I detest far left politics as much as I detest far right politics. AFAIC the Conservative values are more aligned to mine than that of labours have ever been. Do i think (like others here probably think I do) that the conservatives have all the answers and are always right? Fuck off NO. For me it is GB PLC equal first with my family. Work hard, play hard, pay your dues. Welfare, yep all for that to help those who need it. Not dole out benefits Willy nilly to hook the less fortunate into thinking this is all I’m worth and all I’m going to get so I’ll vote Labour because they keep telling me how shit my life is and how they’ll help me to keep that shit life by keep on paying benefits. Immigration, Yep, good idea (my old chap came from India) let in those who are a benefit to all of us, not swamp the country with cheap Labour like Blair did thus getting business hooked on cheap Labour and driving down the working mans income. Asylum? Yep, we’ve always been a safe haven for people in desperate need. Economic migrants, errr, no. They should seek asylum in their first country of entry like they are supposed to do, another EU sham. NHS, yep 100%. Just make it work more efficiently. Anything government run or related always gobbles up more money that can be thrown at it and that goes for both the main parties. Could I vote Labour, ever? I doubt it. Would I not support the Conservative anytime? I have in the past, I’d do so again if I felt the need. Labour need a long time in the wilderness to work out what they stand for and who they really want to vote for them. Then offer the policies that will get them success. They are in the wilderness like the conservatives were after John Major. Will they get into power? Yes, at some point they will.

Hope that clarifies your question. Now if you don’t mind I have work to do, us self employed depend on no-one, get nothing, don’t expect anything.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, September 30, 2021, 11:30:05
You've been listening to a party political broadcast by the Legends Party  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, September 30, 2021, 11:40:51
Some interesting points, many I disagree with, but sets out why you'd end up voting for your least worse option.  I've never voted - so technically people will likely say my opinion carries little weight, but I'll offer it anyway.

Labour's current issue is twofold for me - first, they stuck a toe in the EU waters without ever really jumping in.  Everyone knew Corbyn was all for getting out, if they'd gone full Brexit they would probably be in power now.  I say that as a pro-EU person who leans left on more things than I do right.  The Country was clearly never properly for the EU if it truly considered the end game.

Their second issue is the change in politics which has left them a bit stranded.  They are caught between the old school looking out for the working man Union stuff (which in times gone by would have hated the EU, freedom of movement that creates more competition for those at the bottom) and the new wave Social Justice/Progressive stuff that the more London focused part of the party is interested in.  Again, the UK population that would go after their old school politics isn't really with them on the new school stuff.

The Tories, who have always been a bit cuntish to those not on their side, have identified that opportunity with the electorate and the British electoral system and gone fully in on the cultural war stuff, like the Republicans over here.  It will never get more than about 40% in total because much of it is actually against the sensibilities of modern people, but there enough crusties in the right places, with enough recent venom towards the Labour party to win elections.

What is odd is how the Libs have not been able to go full 1990's on the Tories in the South.  The student fees issue probably has damaged them for a generation and they seem to have gone after the same pocket of people Labour is fighting itself over.  They'd be better served be the Party that reacts to local issues like they used to be.  A bit left of centre, but agile enough to tackle either party in a location if necessary.

Labour should also consider, in a post EU world, if offering the Scots a path to Independence is something worth supporting.  Not going full Nationalist, just agreeing to give them a vote, be independent in said vote and offer up some more Regionalisation  even if they don't take the full out card.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, September 30, 2021, 11:53:20
You've been listening to a party political broadcast by the Legends Party  :)

Reading, it’s reading.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, September 30, 2021, 12:26:13
When it's read out loud, then I'm listening.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, September 30, 2021, 12:52:39
When it's read out loud, then I'm listening.

Nah, you’re reading it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, September 30, 2021, 18:54:15
I’ll be honest I haven’t heard Starmers conference speech, though I will acknowledge that media seems to feel it was not bad in spite of the Far left heckling him he managed it reasonably well. Shame for him then that he tripped over his shoelaces when he was on TV this morning. Female James Bond 🤣🤣

Reminds me of a desperate William Hague wearing a baseball cap to look cool when he was leader of the rudderless conservatives while Blair swept all before him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jevs on Friday, October 1, 2021, 09:36:27
I’ll be honest I haven’t heard Starmers conference speech, though I will acknowledge that media seems to feel it was not bad in spite of the Far left heckling him he managed it reasonably well. Shame for him then that he tripped over his shoelaces when he was on TV this morning. Female James Bond 🤣🤣

Reminds me of a desperate William Hague wearing a baseball cap to look cool when he was leader of the rudderless conservatives while Blair swept all before him.

Starmer and Labour is like Solskjar at Utd for me, both are moving their organisations in the right direction so you'd stick with them until someone who might actually win something turns up.

In most elections it strikes me that the more positive seeming character generally wins, this seems to appeal to the decisive uncommitted middle ground voters who decide elections. I can't see Starmer making much headway against Johnson unless some mud from one of his indiscretions sticks with the public, or Johnson walks away to make much more cash elsewhere.

The Conservatives ability to morph from one thing to another is impressive if cynical, but that's politics & they're so much better at limiting public bitching. Pro EU Cameron wins elections brings in austerity but still grow the debt hugely, now they're virtually UKIP spending eye watering amounts of public money that even Corbyn wouldn't have spent...in the words of the late great Jimmy Greaves, it's a funny old game.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Friday, October 1, 2021, 10:44:28
The best starmer can do is a Neil Kinnock. Sort out the left wing and make them electable again and pass the baton on. This may take years.. I've always thought Kinnock was underrated.
It's common for governments to lose elections rather than opposition win but despite the current Tories being a total bunch of cunts, labour will not win the next election, not even close.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jevs on Friday, October 1, 2021, 16:34:26
The best starmer can do is a Neil Kinnock. Sort out the left wing and make them electable again and pass the baton on. This may take years.. I've always thought Kinnock was underrated.
It's common for governments to lose elections rather than opposition win but despite the current Tories being a total bunch of cunts, labour will not win the next election, not even close.

I think you're right, but Kinnock did not have the issue of the membership that Starmer does - Kinnock had the support of the unions to make Labour electable. Starmer has 1 member 1 vote, and loads of momentum types signed up on a cheap deal under Corbyn I believe so it's not going to be easy for him to boot people out. In the past Labour had a majority in Scotland, can they win an election without it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, October 2, 2021, 15:18:25
Guardian: Mixed Messages for Political Leaders from Election Bellwether Town of Swindon (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/02/mixed-messages-for-political-leaders-from-election-bellwether-town-of-swindon)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, October 2, 2021, 15:40:08
Guardian: Mixed Messages for Political Leaders from Election Bellwether Town of Swindon (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/02/mixed-messages-for-political-leaders-from-election-bellwether-town-of-swindon)

Fuck off. It is Saturday FFS.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, October 2, 2021, 17:06:46
OK, sweetie.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, October 2, 2021, 18:31:28
OK, sweetie.

 Nonce 😃 😘


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 15:04:08
Just to be clear, I am not coming at this in a left vs right or vice versa angle.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-58804607

If "levelling Up" was actually a Policy and not just a throw away marketing slogan, wouldn't the trend towards Home and Hybrid working be something that would actually help that?  If the aim is to make the Regions more competitive and reduce the strain on the South East, to reduce the Country's carbon footprint and so on, well, wouldn't investment in home and hybrid be a way to achieve that?

People being able to, mostly, work from anywhere (in roles that enable that) reduces the need for travel, reduces the concentration of demand on housing, improves the work life balance and on and on.

It does create some huge challenges, the sort a Government comes in handy in helping to solve.  The collapse of the High Street as we once knew it is likely going to speed up without some sort of investment and support for a switch of use.  Local infrastructure may need improvements - Broadband speeds and reach for example, do you insist on it for new housing (it was absurd that North Swindon expanded without it).  Which roads need improving could change, plenty of legacy business models will fall apart, business located near large Business Parks/Office locations will change much like the High Street did.  Surely that should be the Policy focus for the coming years, not demanding everyone go back to doing what they did at some arbitrary point in the past.

Get those teens back in the Chimneys!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jevs on Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 15:14:28
Just to be clear, I am not coming at this in a left vs right or vice versa angle.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-58804607

If "levelling Up" was actually a Policy and not just a throw away marketing slogan, wouldn't the trend towards Home and Hybrid working be something that would actually help that?  If the aim is to make the Regions more competitive and reduce the strain on the South East, to reduce the Country's carbon footprint and so on, well, wouldn't investment in home and hybrid be a way to achieve that?

People being able to, mostly, work from anywhere (in roles that enable that) reduces the need for travel, reduces the concentration of demand on housing, improves the work life balance and on and on.

It does create some huge challenges, the sort a Government comes in handy in helping to solve.  The collapse of the High Street as we once knew it is likely going to speed up without some sort of investment and support for a switch of use.  Local infrastructure may need improvements - Broadband speeds and reach for example, do you insist on it for new housing (it was absurd that North Swindon expanded without it).  Which roads need improving could change, plenty of legacy business models will fall apart, business located near large Business Parks/Office locations will change much like the High Street did.  Surely that should be the Policy focus for the coming years, not demanding everyone go back to doing what they did at some arbitrary point in the past.

Get those teens back in the Chimneys!

Isn't there a massive danger to the future workforce in that? If your job can be done at home, then how long before cheapskate employers work out it can be done much cheaper in a home in India, or somewhere else massively cheaper. Brexit may have changed the supply of cheap labour, but if employers get the option of another route to cheap labour you can guarantee some will take it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 15:17:10
They have had that option for years and there may be plenty of opportunities for the Hybrid approach - work from home, dip into a space if you need/want a face to face, or even a few days away from the home environment?  Some people will not have the right facilities at home, especially in the short term.

Telling people to just go back to work simply reverts us back in time.  Offices didn't even exist as we know them until the 50's/60's really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 15:21:28
And my point is more focused on how a Government could/should focus on what it can do to support it's stated Policies and how society develops.  This genie is already out of the bottle, like the way Retail has been upended by online.  Surely it would be better to focus on how to deliver against stated Policy and better to begin working on the infrastructure to support that, than start pushing against it and trying to go back in time?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 15:36:05
Isn't there a massive danger to the future workforce in that? If your job can be done at home, then how long before cheapskate employers work out it can be done much cheaper in a home in India, or somewhere else massively cheaper. Brexit may have changed the supply of cheap labour, but if employers get the option of another route to cheap labour you can guarantee some will take it.

I work fully online these days (did slightly before the pandemic, as it happens). Just about every employer has this thought once, not many of them have it twice.

Genuinely good international employees will often cost you a wage not far off what you'd pay here these days, in tech at least. You can still get relatively cheap (nowhere near as cheap as it once was though!) offshore development, but it won't be great - either quality wise or in terms of communication/commitment.

With lots of companies now hiring fully remote, there's sometimes even an opportunity for UK based folk to work for organisations who are based in traditionally higher wage places such as San Francisco.

Not for one second suggesting there aren't people out there who could do my job cheaper and better, and it's definitely not for everyone, but I was surprised how easy I found it to find fully remote work pre and post-pandemic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 16:08:18
And my point is more focused on how a Government could/should focus on what it can do to support it's stated Policies and how society develops.  This genie is already out of the bottle, like the way Retail has been upended by online.  Surely it would be better to focus on how to deliver against stated Policy and better to begin working on the infrastructure to support that, than start pushing against it and trying to go back in time?

But what is the governments stated policy, they don't seem to do policy just sound bites.

Looking at this weeks favourite 'Levelling Up' what does that actually mean? It's never going to be viable in any society as there will always be those well paid and those less so, always those accessible to service and those less so etc etc etc. Its like when Gove started banging on about upping/levelling things in education it just doesn't work on basic maths.

In some ways remote working offers a great opportunity for levelling up as us northern monkeys could work for companies based down south remotely and earn equivalent wages (what I have actually done for the last 6 years), but basic market economics means instead that it will possibly be used to drop wages for the same jobs whilst keeping them UK based. Likewise as a large number of Tory donors are individuals/companies with large commercial property portfolio's we immediately have the conflict of interest as they obviously are pushing for people to get back into the office to keep their tenants.

Likewise the High Street, this was dying on its arse for years (way way before COVID) hence why the government had introduced permitted development rights to allow offices and commercial premises to be converted to residential uses without PP, thus the possible renaissance for town centres is to go back to broadly residential uses with certain pockets of leisure to service, however, once again this is not a popular policy with the chattering classes and thus the government is trying to spin multiple plates whereby its core support will not tolerate what the government (to their credit) accept need to be done.

Again its the same with housing, again to their credit the government can see there is a massive problem with the housing market and is disproportionately skewed against the young, so one solution is to build more houses (there is plenty of evidence to support this). But where to build them, no one wants them in their back yard so again we have Councils having to allocate land fighting those who are lucky enough to already own and then the absurd situation where allocated sites are being refused planning permission by Councillors meaning a) planning appeals costing the Councils a fortune that they rarely win and b) developers being able to apply in all manner of unallocated areas as national policy brings extra weight to applications which may be contrary to policy if the Council cannot show a 5 year supply of land.

This from a top Planning QC illustrates how the whole thing is a nonsense devoid of any ideas of any political hue. https://www.planoraks.com/posts-1/levelling-down-notes-from-the-party-conferences


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jevs on Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 16:53:19
They have had that option for years and there may be plenty of opportunities for the Hybrid approach - work from home, dip into a space if you need/want a face to face, or even a few days away from the home environment?  Some people will not have the right facilities at home, especially in the short term.

Telling people to just go back to work simply reverts us back in time.  Offices didn't even exist as we know them until the 50's/60's really.

True of course, and this generation may well have a skills and specialism advantage that insulates them from this danger, but will the next? We're already seen huge tranches of call centre and customer service work outsourced overseas. The next generations will be competing with kids who get a free education..

Personally I think it's amusing hearing everyone argue how much better it is that they're working from when every single company I have personally dealt with is offering substantially worse service for it. Obviously I'm not saying that's every job, I've had a few that benefit from peace and quiet. The Mrs works from home bar one day a week, but that was her arrangement long before covid.

Levelling up is obvious cliched b******s, a nonsense catch phrase to justify idiot policy like HS2 which will be a fabulous cash cow for all the governments favourite donors.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 17:08:35
I have no doubt some work will go - jobs as we know them go extinct every day, let alone shipped abroad.  Pining for jobs that aren't here is not the answer though, planning for the change is.

What you describe around Customer Service and how that feels to a customer is also my point around "not everyone" - that's where the medium term planning comes into from Govt.  How do we provide the right infrastructure to support a shift in work locations that ensures companies get what they need as well.  It's also why this won't be an all or nothing - BUT, it absolutely should change how office space is built and designed for use today.

The worry about losing jobs is an interesting one as well - in reality, work as we know it (employment, people owning their own business etc.) generally has a habit of filling the available capacity, or close to, over time.  So, we have more jobs now than ever before and it keeps progressing as thus - they are just different.  The majority of people want something to do.  The issue is the shift, when it occurs, is painful for individuals at that time.  Again - Govt's should be focused on that.  In a capitalist society, business will eventually fill the gap with new jobs/opportunities to make money, BUT, it needs a backstop to make the transition far more sustainable for those who get shifted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 17:14:23
Also, a comment from someone quite senior in a major bank here got my goat today, suggesting they were against Virtual working because it was bad for the employees.  What utter tosh.  Offices exist today because they took the working practices of the factories and leveraged years of effort supporting efficiency and control.  We are approaching the end of a 400 year old cycle of sorts.  Factories were born from the Cottages, a means to control production and push mass industrialised efficiency.  Offices simply copied what we knew.

A fair number of office based jobs should have gone back to the home as soon as reliable Broadband appeared.  It's taken a seismic event to shake it up, but there is no way paying for huge infrastructure that enables offices to work is the right solution anymore.  Far more efficient to get it back to the cottages - however, the worry is all about CONTROL.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jevs on Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 17:47:20
Also, a comment from someone quite senior in a major bank here got my goat today, suggesting they were against Virtual working because it was bad for the employees.  What utter tosh.  Offices exist today because they took the working practices of the factories and leveraged years of effort supporting efficiency and control.  We are approaching the end of a 400 year old cycle of sorts.  Factories were born from the Cottages, a means to control production and push mass industrialised efficiency.  Offices simply copied what we knew.

A fair number of office based jobs should have gone back to the home as soon as reliable Broadband appeared.  It's taken a seismic event to shake it up, but there is no way paying for huge infrastructure that enables offices to work is the right solution anymore.  Far more efficient to get it back to the cottages - however, the worry is all about CONTROL.


To be fair, in some cases that is true. I'm guessing that you're not socially isolated? One of my former colleagues committed suicide during the first lockdown period. I doubt that would have happened with the social interactions with colleagues that a workplace brings. I've heard plenty of accounts of people who live alone who are very keen to get back amongst company. Maybe for future generations virtual interractions will be sufficient, but I doubt it.

I'm in no way pining for lost jobs, no point walking down that road. We should give some thought to what we're likely to create going forward. Every person I hear arguing for home working seems to be speaking from self interest (I've cut child care costs/commuting etc - fair enough!). For established workers, and people with families, sure it's better, but that's not everyone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 22:18:52
Hence my points about not for everyone, hybrid and needing to plan for how to support the "new".  Just as the demise of the Coal & Steel industries have decimated communities, as could this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jevs on Thursday, October 7, 2021, 08:40:28
Hence my points about not for everyone, hybrid and needing to plan for how to support the "new".  Just as the demise of the Coal & Steel industries have decimated communities, as could this.

Fair enough, I don't disagree with you in some respects. Adapt or be destroyed and all that. It will be interesting to see whether some of the changes stick, or businesses revert to type once this is over - any permanent change to flexible home working will undoubtedly be inspired by lower costs for business. I'm not aware of much long term change by the last major pandemic, but the nature of work has massively changed obviously.

I do maintain though, that I've heard hundreds of people argue that it's so much better/they're so much more efficient but I've yet to see any improvement in any business I interact with, yet loads are using covid/home working as a reason for worse service provision. As a small example how behind are the DVSA currently - some will be staff absence granted, a lot will be home working civil servants.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, October 7, 2021, 09:35:46
Hence my points about not for everyone, hybrid and needing to plan for how to support the "new".  Just as the demise of the Coal & Steel industries have decimated communities, as could this.

The exact process we are going through at work.
Hybrid suits me fine. Home work feels normal but I don't get out much. Give me one or two days in the office a week. Perfect.

We found productivity went up with home working.

DVLA/DVSA: Nearly 3 months waiting for my son's provisional to come through.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, October 7, 2021, 10:50:10
But what is the governments stated policy, they don't seem to do policy just sound bites.

Looking at this weeks favourite 'Levelling Up' what does that actually mean? It's never going to be viable in any society as there will always be those well paid and those less so, always those accessible to service and those less so etc etc etc. Its like when Gove started banging on about upping/levelling things in education it just doesn't work on basic maths.

In some ways remote working offers a great opportunity for levelling up as us northern monkeys could work for companies based down south remotely and earn equivalent wages (what I have actually done for the last 6 years), but basic market economics means instead that it will possibly be used to drop wages for the same jobs whilst keeping them UK based. Likewise as a large number of Tory donors are individuals/companies with large commercial property portfolio's we immediately have the conflict of interest as they obviously are pushing for people to get back into the office to keep their tenants.

Likewise the High Street, this was dying on its arse for years (way way before COVID) hence why the government had introduced permitted development rights to allow offices and commercial premises to be converted to residential uses without PP, thus the possible renaissance for town centres is to go back to broadly residential uses with certain pockets of leisure to service, however, once again this is not a popular policy with the chattering classes and thus the government is trying to spin multiple plates whereby its core support will not tolerate what the government (to their credit) accept need to be done.

Again its the same with housing, again to their credit the government can see there is a massive problem with the housing market and is disproportionately skewed against the young, so one solution is to build more houses (there is plenty of evidence to support this). But where to build them, no one wants them in their back yard so again we have Councils having to allocate land fighting those who are lucky enough to already own and then the absurd situation where allocated sites are being refused planning permission by Councillors meaning a) planning appeals costing the Councils a fortune that they rarely win and b) developers being able to apply in all manner of unallocated areas as national policy brings extra weight to applications which may be contrary to policy if the Council cannot show a 5 year supply of land.

This from a top Planning QC illustrates how the whole thing is a nonsense devoid of any ideas of any political hue. https://www.planoraks.com/posts-1/levelling-down-notes-from-the-party-conferences
As a Home Counties, Nimby, boomer, I see two phenomena that are really annoying me:

The Government getting behind Local Authority approvals for oil drilling in the beautiful, Surrey Hills (where half of London loves to cycle every weekend).  This seems contrary to Climate Change Policy and to trash precious Green Belt/AONB

The mushrooming of easy build, large scale new residential development in and around Wantage with (I believe) FA meaningful developer input to the broader town centre infrastructure or road networks in the area.

I'm Lib Dem inclined and boy were they opportunist in Amersham and Chesham but quite a few in the better off, true blue Home Counties are uncomfortable with recent housing and other development (not to mention their taxes being applied to fund vote-seeking levelling up projects for Northerners like you!))


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 7, 2021, 12:24:17
The Government getting behind Local Authority approvals for oil drilling in the beautiful, Surrey Hills (where half of London loves to cycle every weekend).  This seems contrary to Climate Change Policy and to trash precious Green Belt/AONB


Setting aside the emotive language I know nothing of the case you mention. However planning policy v.climate policy is a complete mess, round here we have all the hoohaa about the West Cumbrian Mine that the County Council approved last October (as it is broadly planning policy compliant) the government then decide not to call in, then due to changes in the governments carbon budgets the Council got cold feet that it would get JR'ed due to not taking note of this part of government policy and overturned their own decision, it has now gone to planning inquiry and still sits in abeyance.

The mushrooming of easy build, large scale new residential development in and around Wantage with (I believe) FA meaningful developer input to the broader town centre infrastructure or road networks in the area.

Is Wantage VoWH Council, if so they have CIL in place and thus developers will be contributing to infrastructure through that, whether the Council chooses to spend it is another matter entirely.

I'm Lib Dem inclined and boy were they opportunist in Amersham and Chesham but quite a few in the better off, true blue Home Counties are uncomfortable with recent housing and other development (not to mention their taxes being applied to fund vote-seeking levelling up projects for Northerners like you!))

The fact that the LD's got it so right in Amersham and Chesham is entirely an indication of why the shit show continue. The Tories get a pasting there for planning reasons, they are getting a fair few kickings in locals in the south east (polling also suggests that a fair few cabinet members, including the PM may be in danger of losing their seats in the GE if nothing changes) for the same reasons, so the balancing act continues, build the houses and development the county needs where it (at present) needs it and piss off the home counties faithful, or roll down the shutters and alienate future generations of voters.

FWIW despite living in the provinces for over 50% of my life, I will never be considered a northerner, even my missus still refers to me as posh! Again though its a case in point politically, the regional media up here is full of stories already of much disquiet about rhetoric not being back up by actions or investment, that the 'Red Wall' is rapidly drifting away from blue, not to red for now but who knows what the future holds wherever your taxes are going they are not being spent round here as yet.

Ultimately as with all governments the present incumbents need to do some quite serious maths as to who they can piss off whilst losing the least seats, the gerrymandering will help them round here at least (assuming the present resentment in Barrow is sorted sharpish) but (and this is why levelling up will never work) ultimately the aims and objectives of those in different regions are extremely different and one size does not fit all. In the past we had regional planning which helped draw regions together but Cameron abolished that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, October 7, 2021, 16:55:00
Setting aside the emotive language I know nothing of the case you mention. However planning policy v.climate policy is a complete mess, round here we have all the hoohaa about the West Cumbrian Mine that the County Council approved last October (as it is broadly planning policy compliant) the government then decide not to call in, then due to changes in the governments carbon budgets the Council got cold feet that it would get JR'ed due to not taking note of this part of government policy and overturned their own decision, it has now gone to planning inquiry and still sits in abeyance.

Is Wantage VoWH Council, if so they have CIL in place and thus developers will be contributing to infrastructure through that, whether the Council chooses to spend it is another matter entirely.

The fact that the LD's got it so right in Amersham and Chesham is entirely an indication of why the shit show continue. The Tories get a pasting there for planning reasons, they are getting a fair few kickings in locals in the south east (polling also suggests that a fair few cabinet members, including the PM may be in danger of losing their seats in the GE if nothing changes) for the same reasons, so the balancing act continues, build the houses and development the county needs where it (at present) needs it and piss off the home counties faithful, or roll down the shutters and alienate future generations of voters.

FWIW despite living in the provinces for over 50% of my life, I will never be considered a northerner, even my missus still refers to me as posh! Again though its a case in point politically, the regional media up here is full of stories already of much disquiet about rhetoric not being back up by actions or investment, that the 'Red Wall' is rapidly drifting away from blue, not to red for now but who knows what the future holds wherever your taxes are going they are not being spent round here as yet.

Ultimately as with all governments the present incumbents need to do some quite serious maths as to who they can piss off whilst losing the least seats, the gerrymandering will help them round here at least (assuming the present resentment in Barrow is sorted sharpish) but (and this is why levelling up will never work) ultimately the aims and objectives of those in different regions are extremely different and one size does not fit all. In the past we had regional planning which helped draw regions together but Cameron abolished that.
Always appreciate your planning input.

It's helpful to pit my uninformed opinions against a little expertise.  So thanks for your thoughts.

Wantage is where my mother lives.  It is indeed VOWH.  I had to look up CIL (Community Infrastructure Levy).  Local authorities are so stretched fulfilling their core statutory duties, I do wonder where any CIL receipts will end up.  I'd have hoped they can't simply be switched to dealing with burgeoning social care demands - which need addressing in their own right.  

It just seems like quite substantial housing estates are being put up in agricultural fields left, right and centre - and a number of them not even contiguous to the town itself.

Wantage was something of a backwater town (for me, fortuitously so), not quite on any of the main routes between Swindon, Oxford and Newbury, but distinctive and pleasant enough.  The actual centre is not really suited to any serious expansion, though I presume  more retail outlet space can be found.

It sometimes seems to me that building large estates in fields is the "easy" way to hit targets.  Selfishly, no doubt, I'd prefer a more resourceful and blended approach of using space already there in town centres.

Wherever we may be, we are the boys from the west country, each Saturday anyway. ;)





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, December 8, 2021, 15:44:12
Allegra Stratton has resigned over her bit of Christmapartygate.

Not a good look laughing, but not exactly the worst perpetrate of the whole thing either.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 8, 2021, 16:01:37
Allegra Stratton has resigned over her bit of Christmapartygate.

Not a good look laughing, but not exactly the worst perpetrate of the whole thing either.

Well considering she seemed to have done the sweet sum of fuck all since she was appointed its hardly a loss.

I suspect things are going to get more farcical, nothing breeds loyalty in your staff than to publicly fling them all under the bus the line appearing to be essentially "all of my staff have been lying to me and I was unaware of a party in my own house", looks like an exemplary way to encourage them to leak evidence that you already knew about the party last year.

Add to that the fact that for that video to have a) been saved at all and b) leaked last night suggests that he has enemies pretty high up the food chain and one wonders whatever else he knows, from the way Starmer continues to allow him to dig himself into a corner I do wonder whether Labour know exactly what info is available and whether evidence that he was actually at the party will emerge next Tuesday evening?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dr Pierre Chang on Wednesday, December 8, 2021, 16:28:00
Almost certain there will be some more skeletons in the closet! :popcorn:

I doubt Boris will be going anywhere though unfortunately, the man escapes everything.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, December 8, 2021, 16:34:42
He’s screwed, though. If he knew and lied, he’s fucked. If he didn’t know, then he’s an incompetent for not knowing what’s going on in No. 10.

There’s no way he can deny any knowledge. That’s just not feasible.

Wonder who released that video.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Wednesday, December 8, 2021, 16:41:16
I saw a tweet earlier questioning why the Sun newspaper were not going very heavy handed on their reporting of it, apparently it was because they had their own restrictions breaking party the same night.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, December 8, 2021, 17:07:09
I saw a tweet earlier questioning why the Sun newspaper were not going very heavy handed on their reporting of it, apparently it was because they had their own restrictions breaking party the same night.


Yep, as reported in Private Eye.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, December 8, 2021, 19:08:41
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Wednesday, December 8, 2021, 22:54:29
Allegra Stratton has resigned over her bit of Christmapartygate.

Not a good look laughing, but not exactly the worst perpetrate of the whole thing either.
Wonder if she is having a leaving party?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, December 9, 2021, 08:26:34
This video. How come she is the only one identified in the video. Everyone else have their faces masked out.

Wonder if she’s been thrown under the bus with a promise of a cushy number when the heat dies down


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, December 9, 2021, 08:42:15
This video. How come she is the only one identified in the video. Everyone else have their faces masked out.

Wonder if she’s been thrown under the bus with a promise of a cushy number when the heat dies down

Probably.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 9, 2021, 09:22:50
This video. How come she is the only one identified in the video. Everyone else have their faces masked out.

Wonder if she’s been thrown under the bus with a promise of a cushy number when the heat dies down

She is not the only one ID'ed there is also a guy named Ed Oldfield another PM advisor, he shares a name with a journo in the south west who has subsequently been inundated with hassle about it.

No doubt Stratton will become Dame Stratton as soon as things quiet down.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 9, 2021, 09:57:15
So, upper Stratton?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 9, 2021, 10:07:59
This is good.

Alternative Resignation Speech (https://twitter.com/SoozUK/status/1468624558123069450)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 9, 2021, 10:10:32
...and, right on cue.

Look everyone, a baby!!! (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59593510)

You can all stop talking about corruption, lies and shoddy government now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 9, 2021, 10:20:02
so .. induced or c-section?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, December 9, 2021, 10:21:15
so .. induced or c-section?

With the last few days, I'm not sure I'd rule out abduction.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 9, 2021, 10:32:31
Fair play to the BBC (for once).  Top 4 stories on their website, in order:

  • Javid Defends COVID Plan B amid Number 10 Party Row
  • Downing Street Party Probe could be Widened
  • Tory Party Fined over PM's Flat Refurbishment
  • Boris & Carrie Johnson Announce Birth of Girl


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, December 9, 2021, 11:16:17
It’s come out today that Johnson asked lord somebody for money for his flat refurb last November

The same flat refurb he didn’t know who had paid for when asked in May

Parliament now trying to close early for Christmas. Pathetic


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Thursday, December 9, 2021, 11:22:37
Labour have a great opportunity here but will no doubt fuck it up like the left wing press who didn't discover this story but were handed it on a plate. It will be down to the Tory backbenches and Tory press who look as though they've had enough. With an election a couple of years away Boris will be chopped. I've been around a few years and I've not seen by anything like the shit this lot are peddling.
And that bint who was sacked will be back in government soon as she's rishi suneks mate and he is almost nailed on to be the Tories next leader.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Thursday, December 9, 2021, 11:49:17
Labour have a great opportunity here but will no doubt fuck it up like the left wing press who didn't discover this story but were handed it on a plate. It will be down to the Tory backbenches and Tory press who look as though they've had enough. With an election a couple of years away Boris will be chopped. I've been around a few years and I've not seen by anything like the shit this lot are peddling.
And that bint who was sacked will be back in government soon as she's rishi suneks mate and he is almost nailed on to be the Tories next leader.

There's a left wing press? Where the fuck have they been hiding?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 9, 2021, 12:20:17
Obviously NSFW....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFgAllmI6LY&t=74s


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, December 13, 2021, 10:46:33
Fair play to the BBC (for once).  Top 4 stories on their website, in order:

  • Javid Defends COVID Plan B amid Number 10 Party Row
  • Downing Street Party Probe could be Widened
  • Tory Party Fined over PM's Flat Refurbishment
  • Boris & Carrie Johnson Announce Birth of Girl

This reminds me. My dad and uncle are adamant that the BBC are left wing, but I'm not convinced. In all honesty I am no expert on these sort of things, but I am sure Kuennsburg is more on the right. Thoughts?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Monday, December 13, 2021, 11:16:22
They definitely were for a long period. Very woke, very left and very anti Brexit. Even Dr who stories were woke shit. Question time audiences didn't appear to be very balanced.
Haven't watched BBC for a while and don't watch the BBC news any more so not sure if it's changed.
Tend to watch sky news now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Monday, December 13, 2021, 11:47:56
As with most of these things, how a lot of people view the BBC (and so called MSM) tends to be based on their own political leaning.

Most hardened people on the left will think it’s too far to the right and vice versa


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, December 13, 2021, 11:54:50
As with most of these things, how a lot of people view the BBC (and so called MSM) tends to be based on their own political leaning.

Most hardened people on the left will think it’s too far to the right and vice versa

A lot of truth in that, and because it does so much people will always cherry pick the stuff they dislike and ignore the stuff that's more aligned.

The entertainment content is more left leaning, because art is almost always a reaction against the government of the day and the right has been in for 10yrs + now

The news stuff has always been broadly aligned with establishment views - that gives everyone plenty to grumble about on all sides.

The BBC's not perfect by any means, but they do at least try. Most news sources start from their political view and work out the news backwards from there. Did make me smile that the Mail the other day was talking about the Govt. being furious with the BBC covering all the party stuff - the various parts of that story having been broken by ITV and The Mirror...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, December 13, 2021, 11:57:40
As with most of these things, how a lot of people view the BBC (and so called MSM) tends to be based on their own political leaning.

Most hardened people on the left will think it’s too far to the right and vice versa

Also depends on where one sits on the political scale, if one is pretty hard right the centre can appear full of wokist libtards and vice versa with the far left!

Also not being helped by the nonsense much of the media prints an example being yesterdays MoS cover story which was blaming the BBC for reporting about the party and not the vaccine campaign despite the party story actually being broken by ITV (and the Mirror) not the BBC and the BBC pointing out that they regularly try and get ministers on to talk about vaccines but they don't turn up.

Sadly this country is beginning to resemble a dictatorship in parts where some people have been persuaded that the media should neither hold the government to account nor criticise them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: AMayesIng on Monday, December 13, 2021, 12:40:49
A lot of truth in that, and because it does so much people will always cherry pick the stuff they dislike and ignore the stuff that's more aligned.

The entertainment content is more left leaning, because art is almost always a reaction against the government of the day and the right has been in for 10yrs + now

The news stuff has always been broadly aligned with establishment views - that gives everyone plenty to grumble about on all sides.

The BBC's not perfect by any means, but they do at least try. Most news sources start from their political view and work out the news backwards from there. Did make me smile that the Mail the other day was talking about the Govt. being furious with the BBC covering all the party stuff - the various parts of that story having been broken by ITV and The Mirror...

This. The Internet has exacerbated that tendency to cherry pick; which isn't good for healthy debate. Us vs them, one side always right the other always wrong etc. In the real world most grown ups realise that life isn't that simple. That's one of the great things about this forum; it allows for different views on stuff and intelligent debate (* mostly) Long may it continue.

Also - the BBC. Not perfect no, but it's a big part of our shared culture and we'd miss it if was gone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, December 13, 2021, 12:45:24
As someone who now gets a choice of CNN, MSNBC and Fox News pretending to offer the news 24 hours  a day, make sure you give the BBC a big hug every day regardless of how far the wrong way you think they may be from your political view.  Hell, Sky News seems perfectly professional and high brow these days to me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Monday, December 13, 2021, 21:51:30
Most of the main stream newspapers in this country are very right wing, with a couple of obvious exceptions.

The fact that people see the beeb as left wing is probably because they are used to getting told the news with a very right wing leaning and the beeb are trying not too be.

The other issue is that they will be reporting on what the government are doing, and reporting on their cock-ups. To be fair they did report negatively on Corbyn when he was labour leader.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 04:31:06
So what newspaper would be your reliable central midfielder, one that you could trust with a balanced view/perspective and would feed the left and right wing fairly😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: AMayesIng on Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 08:27:38
I think that what the Independent was trying to be, back in the day. So Answer now = None. To be honest, the BBC is the best you are going to get for middle of the road objectivity. They at least try.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 09:25:26
So what newspaper would be your reliable central midfielder, one that you could trust with a balanced view/perspective and would feed the left and right wing fairly😀

That's a pretty good question. Clearly the Guardian and Mirror are very left and the Telegraph, Mail and Express right. I mentioned in a thread a while back that the Daily Mail ended up in our house (bought by a visitor, presumably covered by a porno mag) and I had a read through it. It was basically 60 pages or so of opinion pieces moaning about 'Woke culture' and how the world has gone mad, ad infinitum. For balance I assume the Guardian and Mirror are similar with their writers' views.

My opinion is that I think the BBC attempts middle of the road reporting as AMayesIng states, but I am no expert on this so probably miles off the mark. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 15:21:59
That's the point the press/media will never keep everyone happy with their views & opinions


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 15:24:41
The print media is always more likely to lean one way or another as the headlines grab the purchasers and the reader counts create the Ad revenue.

I think the Times was more centrist, not sure these days.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Hunk on Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 15:32:41
Just found out that my auntie (my Mum’s sister) wrote Boris’s speech on Sunday


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 15:34:06
Did you agree with it😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Hunk on Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 15:34:35
Did you agree with it😀

I didn’t listen to it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 16:54:39
I’d say the Guardian is (or at least used to be) a liberal paper, with the mirror clearly the only left wing main stream paper.

The rest are different versions of right wing, with the mail being slightly to the left of Hitler.

To be honest I don’t read any of them now, and haven’t for years


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 18:53:08
I didn’t listen to it

I'm disappointed now as I thought it was from the bottom of Borris's heart!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 19:07:27
I'm disappointed now as I thought it was from the bottom of Borris's heart!

Or the heart of Boris' bottom.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 19:09:30
Don't you may upset Hunk :eek:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 17, 2021, 08:30:12
Off you f***, Spaffer.

Time's up now, surely.  As an ex-resident of North Shropshire (very long time ago), I'm feeling rather proud this morning.  Enough of your bollocks, bluster and bullshit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, December 17, 2021, 09:09:57
Boris' number 10 jacket is surely on a loose peg now. Should it happen, who is likely to be the new PM? Rishi Sunak?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, December 17, 2021, 09:11:37
Time for a new centre party, can't standard any of the 3 "main" parties. I see the tories had a 23k majority in North Shrops turned over, and the LD won on 17k (total votes of 35k ish) more like voters apathy*.

* yep, 57k turned out in 2019.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, December 17, 2021, 09:29:48
By-election turnouts are always super low, it wasn't especially unusual. Funny for the Tories to lose a seat they've held since 1832 but I wouldn't hold my breath to it translating to a landslide at a general (not that we'll get one any time soon).

Our system doesn't allow for new parties. Best hope is some sort of progressive alliance but there's far too many egos involved for that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 17, 2021, 09:37:38
Time for a new centre party, can't standard any of the 3 "main" parties. I see the tories had a 23k majority in North Shrops turned over, and the LD won on 17k (total votes of 35k ish) more like voters apathy*.

* yep, 57k turned out in 2019.

It's already been tried.  ChangeUK was born and died pretty much the same week.  One of the many failings of FPTP is that it actively discourages new political groupings from emerging and gaining traction.  UKIP attracting 3.8m votes in 2015 and getting just one MP is another.  The system's fucked.  The old duopoly will plod on, with the Lib Dems trailing in 3rd, ad infinitum.  Until we can do something about FPTP.

Three European countries use FPTP - the UK, Poland and Belarus.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, December 17, 2021, 16:56:03
soapy tit wank, the little tinkers

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59701369

by tinkers I mean hypocritical cunts


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Friday, December 17, 2021, 23:26:21
How can he take on the job knowing he himself is guilty. He should have stood aside. Others must have known he was also guilty.
This has to be taken out of the Tories control and given to the police to investigate.
These Tory parties are escalating at the same rate as Omicron.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, December 17, 2021, 23:32:11
gone now...

next...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, December 18, 2021, 06:53:18
The problem is the government are useless and the opposition even worse!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, December 18, 2021, 07:14:06
Why didn’t he just have a quiet word in Boris’ ear and say he shouldn’t be leading this inquiry? How stupid are these people that are supposed to be the best we’ve got? It beggars belief that it appears virtually anyone could do a better job.

They say people get the politicians they deserve - so, yet again, it’s all our fault!

The country will lurch from one useless government to another.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, December 18, 2021, 07:18:22
 :clap: :clap:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Saturday, December 18, 2021, 09:06:33
The country will lurch from one useless government to another.

FPTP will do that for you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Saturday, December 18, 2021, 09:21:00
Interesting interview with Boris following the by election.it came across as he could crack on with governing if the journalists would just shut up. Governing with no governance. Interesting concept.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, December 18, 2021, 09:23:31
The journalist would shut up if the governments shenanigans weren't leaked out😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Saturday, December 18, 2021, 14:17:24
The journalist would shut up if the governments shenanigans weren't leaked out😀
So is the problem with the leaks? The journalists? The government? Politicians? People in general? Or the whole damn lot?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, December 18, 2021, 16:30:03
If the Governments antics never happened then there would be no whistle blowing, no stories for the journalist leaving us thinking what a wonderful job the politicians are all doing. The answer to the question is that they bring it on themselves thinking they are bullett proof and that they won't be found out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, December 18, 2021, 17:20:07
So is the problem with the leaks? The journalists? The government? Politicians? People in general? Or the whole damn lot?

All of the above. You can divvy up the percentage of blame based on your own view point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, December 18, 2021, 20:07:12
Abandon ship!!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10324429/Brexit-minister-Lord-Frost-walks-Boris.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Sunday, December 19, 2021, 14:40:46
Twat.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59717571


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, December 19, 2021, 16:30:25
Twat.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59717571

Lefty twat at that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, December 19, 2021, 17:35:55
Another wanker who's name won't go away
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17082727/piers-corbyn-covid-rally-london-priti-patel/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Sunday, December 19, 2021, 18:45:08
Boris Johnson and staff pictured with wine in Downing Street garden in May 2020

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/19/boris-johnson-and-staff-pictured-with-wine-in-downing-street-garden-in-may-2020?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

What a cunt


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, December 19, 2021, 18:50:45
About the same time as Dominic Cummings grovelling speech so maybe a garden party after!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, December 19, 2021, 19:10:03
Boris Johnson and staff pictured with wine in Downing Street garden in May 2020

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/19/boris-johnson-and-staff-pictured-with-wine-in-downing-street-garden-in-may-2020?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

What a cunt

Yeah. What a cunt, he has out cunted by the cunts from the other side who have not been exposed as cunts, yet…


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 19, 2021, 19:17:53
Quote from: Legends-Lounge
Yeah. What a cunt, he has out cunted by the cunts from the other side who have not been exposed as cunts, yet…



before blaming the Tories, whatabout them down the road at #44. I'm sure they had 7 under the rule of 6


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Sunday, December 19, 2021, 19:18:57
Brilliant

Even if ‘the other side’ did act like cunts (which is complete conjecture on your part), they weren’t the people who made the rules

This gaggle of pricks made the rules, tough rules for millions, and thought they were above them. Zero legitimacy


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Sunday, December 19, 2021, 19:35:38
If it was an isolated event, you could probably get away with the work excuse but not the series of events that are being uncovered. I would say it shows a general contempt for the public but that implies thought on their behalf. My guess is they didn't think they were above the law, they just didn't think like just about everything they do.
There is no doubt someone with a bit of clout has got it in for Boris. These leaks plus the leaking of the resignation letter by Frost. These leaking of pictures pre x mas is no coincidence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 09:31:10
Good quote today

‘Let me put this politely: it is not *entirely clear* why the Prime Minister needs to wait for Sue Gray's report to find out if he went to a party in his own garden’


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 09:32:03
I for one am shocked to find out that the line at Christmas that Boris didn't know what was going on in his own garden does not appear too be holding.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 09:42:51
The guy is clearly taking the piss now isn't he?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 09:55:37
Was it another business meeting?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 10:15:14
I know where I was on May 20th 2020.  My business had ground to a halt during the pandemic but I had found some work on the frontline running a temporary morgue.

At the start of 2020 I had seen no dead bodies.

By the end of April 2021 I had seen over a thousand.

On May 20th 2020 I was working a night shift at the morgue.  It may have been one of the nights I had to sleep in the crematorium.  It would certainly have been one of the days that the survivors of the dead were not allowed to attend the funerals of their loved ones.

This is inexcusable.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 10:28:50
I know where I was on May 20th 2020.  My business had ground to a halt during the pandemic but I had found some work on the frontline running a temporary morgue.

At the start of 2020 I had seen no dead bodies.

By the end of April 2021 I had seen over a thousand.

On May 20th 2020 I was working a night shift at the morgue.  It may have been one of the nights I had to sleep in the crematorium.  It would certainly have been one of the days that the survivors of the dead were not allowed to attend the funerals of their loved ones.

This is inexcusable.



Fuck me that's a sobering post Sax. I can't even begin to imagine what you have seen/been through.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 12:21:06
Vote Johnson, get Johnson.  I'm more surprised anyone is remotely shocked.

Saxondale, that's a real wake up post. I hope you have dealt with it ok.  Can't even imagine what that's like.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 12:32:54
What's happening now is deeply sinister.  I'm not normally given over to hyperbole, but the normal rules of engagement are being wiped away as we look on.  In normal times - up to around 5 yrs ago maybe - Johnson would simply have to resign in these circumstances.  But instead of that, he smirks.  The press are basically in on it.  So long as he has Murdoch's backing and is able to appoint the man at the top of the BBC, he's fine.

Comes a point when you have to question whether the democracy is functioning as it should.  This feels like a slow slide towards authoritarianism, and a dismantling of the standards & apparatus that have held leaders to account up until now.  If ever we needed a fully functioning opposition, it's now.  But they're nowhere, focused instead on fighting themselves.  It's chilling, and it's happening right in front of us all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 13:28:18
Vote Johnson, get Johnson.  I'm more surprised anyone is remotely shocked.

Saxondale, that's a real wake up post. I hope you have dealt with it ok.  Can't even imagine what that's like.

Thanks Donkey and Bob.

I'll be honest, I know this sort of thing lurks all the time in the back of your head when you've gone through it.  We had staff who were ex military who'd been in war zones and humanitarian crises saying that it will get you at some point and you never know when.  I was expecting that at some point Ill be at the pub and just snap at a fucking anti vax / covid conspiracy dweeb and that may still happen, but this has put me in a pretty dark place. 

There's a lot of people I wont talk to in case they try to justify this shit and I'll be honest I know this is probably not the best place to be expressing things so I may withdraw from this thread again now.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Moss on Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 13:39:27
Yeah. What a cunt, he has out cunted by the cunts from the other side who have not been exposed as cunts, yet…

Wow members of the Bullington club thinking they are better than the rest of us? Shocking. And LL - they are laughing at you harder than anyone, as not only are you a pleb you're a fucking stupid one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 13:42:50
What's happening now is deeply sinister.  I'm not normally given over to hyperbole, but the normal rules of engagement are being wiped away as we look on.  In normal times - up to around 5 yrs ago maybe - Johnson would simply have to resign in these circumstances.  But instead of that, he smirks.  The press are basically in on it.  So long as he has Murdoch's backing and is able to appoint the man at the top of the BBC, he's fine.

Comes a point when you have to question whether the democracy is functioning as it should.  This feels like a slow slide towards authoritarianism, and a dismantling of the standards & apparatus that have held leaders to account up until now.  If ever we needed a fully functioning opposition, it's now.  But they're nowhere, focused instead on fighting themselves.  It's chilling, and it's happening right in front of us all.

Thing is for a large part of the population the country becoming little more than a banana republic, international laughing stock with a tanking economy and reducing life expectancy is acceptable as long as it feels like you are putting one over the the wokeist libtards.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 14:27:48
The thing that really fucks me off with this is how easy it is to prove. His movements are logged by the police. Going in and out of downing Street is logged by the police.
The same as prince Andrew and his pizza express meal instead of shagging the young lady he has never met.
This could have been called in ages ago but there has obviously been a cover up within the police
Maybe pay back for Cressida dick being so appallingly shite.
It's fucking disgusting and although I view things from a different lens to ardiles I can't really argue against his hyperbole.
Gray needs to finish her review quite quickly now I think.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 14:36:16
"Boris Johnson anxiously awaiting the outcome of an enquiry Boris Johnson initiated to see if Boris Johnson attended a party at Boris Johnson's house" as one commentator so succinctly pointed out


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 15:02:03
Maybe pay back for Cressida dick being so appallingly shite.

Gray needs to finish her review quite quickly now I think.

Ah Dame Cressida Dick, who ran the operation that led to the innocent Brazilian guy getting shot by the met!

As for Gray, setting aside the fact that there is evidence now knocking about that she was on the email list for the most recent party so why the bloody hell is she investigating it, what is her remit, to investigate whether the PM attended a party, why does it need a third party to investigate that!

I wonder what the guy who rolled up in Parliament to defend Johnson today is going to get, Knighthood, place in the Lords?

I think the key question is whether Carrie can pop another baby out in the next 18 hours so he can dodge PMQ's again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 10:21:39
Having a civil servant investigate is not right here.  Ultimately, her reporting line goes in to Johnson.

It's a police matter.  And the longer the Met avoids investigating this, the worse it looks for them.  It looks dodgy, feels dodgy.  And almost certainly is dodgy.  Not a good look.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 16:02:42
I see the Scottish Tory leader has called for Boris to resign.

The Scottish Tory leader is of course, a professional football referee, completely undermining anyone who thinks all Tories are clueless wankers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 16:07:20
It's a police matter.  And the longer the Met avoids investigating this, the worse it looks for them.  It looks dodgy, feels dodgy.  And almost certainly is dodgy.  Not a good look.

Especially when the invitation to said party is in the public domain and at least on attendee has now confirmed on live telly that they attended!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 17:04:00
Having a civil servant investigate is not right here.  Ultimately, her reporting line goes in to Johnson.

It's a police matter.  And the longer the Met avoids investigating this, the worse it looks for them.  It looks dodgy, feels dodgy.  And almost certainly is dodgy.  Not a good look.

It seems that, unlike elsewhere where parties were busted, the Met is itself complicit and standing by allowing parties in the garden of No. 10.

Last month the Independent Office for Police Conduct was approached for this very reason - following a Complaint.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-watchdog-not-investigate-no-175803197.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmluZy5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAMdSucaVpPQDDqouRIur6pWFNnz-aFvn_fMEbx1DXKz6DFzlEQa_3NtMkU6GvM4zEX8Ji0zOJli-mt3opu8FO25hcrU7F1iF4QBwu_DuHSqOXGXymtUdgkjxz7tmt42fdARCObIaEBKWNPHQn1VxO5RWlflKIOYg5xIB98tiToeV

But we taxpayers have now funded a bowlful of timid investigations whereby the alleged culprits mark their own homework.
 
Where there are findings made by independent Judges or Juries, then they are are undermined by the Government and a mainly servile media..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 17:12:17
Especially when the invitation to said party is in the public domain and at least on attendee has now confirmed on live telly that they attended!

Caraftily and carefully worded (by lawyers?) to avoid looking like he broke the law. Such bullshit from his flapping head of lies. "I thought it was business"...."in hindsight I should have sent them inside"....




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 17:59:49
Given how fucking useless the Tories are, the constant access to alcohol whilst working may well explain it.
So he's betting everything on the inquiry. What's the betting the get out clause will be that downing Street is a work place as well as a home and that whilst unwise no offences were committed. Gray then becomes a dame when Boris eventually leaves office.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 18:33:47
that's what's is going to happen


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 18:35:50
that's what's is going to happen
Yep,obvious isn't it? Sadly


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 13, 2022, 14:27:27
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FI420pdX0AAmRRI?format=jpg&name=large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, January 13, 2022, 15:14:19
Is that the new Richard Osman novel?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Thursday, January 13, 2022, 21:50:43
Telegraph now reporting Number 10 held TWO parties the night before Prince Phils funeral


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, January 13, 2022, 21:57:34
Number 10 is starting to sound like the fucking Hacienda, which is quite a surprise.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, January 14, 2022, 05:58:11
Like this tweet regarding the ‘booze in a suitcase’.

“I'm very proud that thanks to Brexit and the end of metric tyranny we are finally able to serve wine by the suitcase once again.”


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, January 14, 2022, 09:00:20
Telegraph now reporting Number 10 held TWO parties the night before Prince Phils funeral

If they are reporting stuff now surely that's a sign that Boris is for the chop.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, January 14, 2022, 09:08:04
The startling thing for me is the number of Tory MPs sitting on their hands & waiting for someone else to do what's necessary.  That they haven't sent in enough letters to force a leadership contest is telling.  Drawing this sorry saga out is causing massive damage to their party.  Genuinely surprises to see such indecision.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, January 14, 2022, 09:12:13
To be fair he’s got some moves

https://twitter.com/countbinface/status/1481673645567184900?s=21


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, January 14, 2022, 09:12:38
If Boris were to go, who is the likely replacement? Sunak I presume?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, January 14, 2022, 09:14:28
If Boris were to go, who is the likely replacement? Sunak I presume?

Sunak or Truss are the leading candidates, but the more this drags on and various members of the cabinet have to debase themselves defending him, the more chance there must be of a winner from the backbenches, probably Jeremy Hunt.

I did listen to an interesting take that he'll limp on a bit simply because none of the leading contenders want the job right now, they'll force him to keep taking the hits and then get rid of him when the external environment is a bit more positive to take over. Maybe that's a bit Machiavellian, but it's more or less what happened to May who was "done" from the 2017 election and managed another year or two limping.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, January 14, 2022, 09:32:09
it's about timing isn't it

can't see him leading the Tories into a new election


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 14, 2022, 10:15:01
I did listen to an interesting take that he'll limp on a bit simply because none of the leading contenders want the job right now, they'll force him to keep taking the hits and then get rid of him when the external environment is a bit more positive to take over. Maybe that's a bit Machiavellian, but it's more or less what happened to May who was "done" from the 2017 election and managed another year or two limping.

Ultimately any successor will be cautious of the timing, if they get rid now they will very early in their tenure face the double whammy of fronting up the tax rises and energy price chaos coming in April and then a likely shoeing at the local elections come May.

I would imagine that the results in May will provide the excuse to see him off to the after dinner circuit!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, January 14, 2022, 10:20:25
Ultimately any successor will be cautious of the timing, if they get rid now they will very early in their tenure face the double whammy of fronting up the tax rises and energy price chaos coming in April and then a likely shoeing at the local elections come May.

I would imagine that the results in May will provide the excuse to see him off to the after dinner circuit!

And Russia almost certainly invading Ukraine, just to really add to the general feeling of doom. Cyber attacks yesterday seem to herald what's coming, not sure Europe can do much about it during a gas price crisis. Not a great time to be coming into the role for sure, but also a shit time for the country to have a weak puppet who wasn't particularly on top of his brief to start with.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 14, 2022, 10:39:24
And Russia almost certainly invading Ukraine, just to really add to the general feeling of doom. Cyber attacks yesterday seem to herald what's coming, not sure Europe can do much about it during a gas price crisis. Not a great time to be coming into the role for sure, but also a shit time for the country to have a weak puppet who wasn't particularly on top of his brief to start with.

And is heavily funded by Russian Oligarchs and has recently elevated one to the Lords....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mr Stevens on Friday, January 14, 2022, 17:52:36
Liz Truss starts her manoeuvring - wrapped in the flag. Buy British cheese!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Friday, January 14, 2022, 17:56:34
Tory voters don't seem to mind the Tories treating them with no respect, maybe they feel differently about the queen?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, January 14, 2022, 18:29:05
So even the woman in charge of the Covid response held a party in lockdown too

Fucking pisstakers this lot


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, January 14, 2022, 22:04:57
Where to go... Operation Save Big Dog or Friday Wine Time....

If this was The Thick of It you think it was exaggerated bollocks.

Sent from my SM-A125F


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, January 14, 2022, 22:36:53
'Operation Save Big Dog'?!  The name's his own idea, allegedly.

I'm crying.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Friday, January 14, 2022, 23:58:31
The startling thing for me is the number of Tory MPs sitting on their hands & waiting for someone else to do what's necessary.  That they haven't sent in enough letters to force a leadership contest is telling.  Drawing this sorry saga out is causing massive damage to their party.  Genuinely surprises to see such indecision.

No one in the parliamentary party is going to make a move for a leadership bid just now. We're more than 2 years out from an election, and there's a shit load of economic pain on the horizon. Price inflation is massively outstripping wage increases and economic growth is piss poor. That's before factoring in the impact of the frankly fucking pathetic job that's been done on post Brexit trade agreements both with the EU and to replace those with the rest of the world (you know the ones Dr Fox told us were ready to be signed the day after brexit day.

They'll all want Boris to carry the pain of that for a year, then elbow and replace, probably with RS about a year out from election day.

Without candidates to coalesce around pushing for letters of NC I doubt they'll get the required number.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, January 18, 2022, 22:23:00
Sounds like the leadership challenge is happening.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 07:23:13
BoJo has one last trick up his sleeve, he’ll simply announce an end to Plan B from the 26th and no doubt everyone will love him again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 11:45:11
Bloody hell, minutes before PMQ's, brutal!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJdnbcsWYAcnd_O?format=jpg&name=large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 11:45:42
Brutally large image, for sure.

I do enjoy a floor crossing - mostly because it's absolutely nobody you've ever heard of and makes no difference, but is delightful drama.

From his Wikipedia

Quote
It was reported in The Times on 5 November 2021 that Wakeford approached Owen Paterson and called him "a cunt", after the Government, under the instruction of prime minister Boris Johnson, instructed its MPs to vote to change rules on the way MPs' conduct is policed.

Seems like the TEF's favourite MP already.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 12:30:56
Brutally large image, for sure.


 It had gone far from well, but the David Davis.... Boom!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 12:32:48
You think he'd recognise the quote as well, considering he wrote a biography of Churchill.

I don't think for one second PMQs matters or is useful to the running of the country, but it is magnificent drama.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 12:33:48
You think he'd recognise the quote as well, considering he wrote a biography of Churchill.

I don't think for one second PMQs matters or is useful to the running of the country, but it is magnificent drama.

Borris definitely looked rattled today!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 12:34:32
Borris definitely looked ratted today!
Corrected!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 12:40:56
Brilliant!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H0QD-wvNmE4


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 12:58:25
Brilliant!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H0QD-wvNmE4

TBF its the Met and Dick who need fear AC12.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 17:31:36
You think he'd recognise the quote as well, considering he wrote a biography of Churchill.

I don't think for one second PMQs matters or is useful to the running of the country, but it is magnificent drama.

He wants to be Churchill, he isn't even Chamberlain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mr Stevens on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 17:52:58
Davis did what to Johnson what a Geoffrey Howe did to Thatcher. Hopefully.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 18:00:26
He wants to be Churchill, he isn't even Chamberlain.

There has has never been ‘another Churchill’ since Churchill himself. Closest was a certain M. Thatcher and even then she wasn’t ‘another Churchill’ and TBF I doubt she ever set out to be one either. As for Bozza personally I believe he will be seen, maybe given time all be it a long time, anything better than Labour have to offer up since Churchill. Not that that is a very high bar to leap over. Further more I’ve never heard him say publicly that he sees himself as ‘another Churchill’, maybe in private as a joke but then when you’re hat high in politics everyone below you is an enemy and after your throne, on both sides of the house.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 18:32:46
He wants to be Churchill, he isn't even Chamberlain.
He’s closer to Helen than Neville.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Moss on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 19:01:46
Churchill was a cunt, Boris is a cunt....


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 19:05:56
You think he'd recognise the quote as well, considering he wrote a biography of Churchill.

This book?
https://www.newstatesman.com/cultur...nother-who-seems-just-make-it-boris-churchill

His writing appears on a par with his prime ministering


Sent from my SM-A125F


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 19:33:14
Churchill was a cunt, Boris is a cunt....
Churchill did some very good things and some very bad things.
Boris is a cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 19:50:28
Churchill was a cunt, Boris is a cunt....

Hitler thought the same about Churchill, so you’re in exulted company.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pookemon on Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 19:58:03
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson_Is_a_Fucking_Cunt

More comedy gold can be found here - well more ditties about Boris being a cunt anyway.
https://borisjohnson.info/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 09:15:19
Hitler thought the same about Churchill, so you’re in exulted company.

Errr Hitler quite admired Churchill.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 09:19:57
Isn't LL of Indian descent? Not sure Churchill would've been too keen


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 09:21:10
When can we expect Sue Gray's report to land? Am I right in saying Gray is not independent and is employed by Boris?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 09:24:23
When can we expect Sue Gray's report to land? Am I right in saying Gray is not independent and is employed by Boris?

Indeed, despite what they keep trying to spin its an internal inquiry, not remotely an independent one.

Sue Gray has no powers to sanction, is investigating her boss and his overall boss, plus loads of her colleagues. David Allen Green provides a useful crammer here. https://davidallengreen.com/2022/01/a-critical-general-overview-of-the-sue-gray-investigation-2/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 09:24:49
Isn't LL of Indian descent? Not sure Churchill would've been too keen

Or Johnson TBH.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 09:27:14
Isn't LL of Indian descent? Not sure Churchill would've been too keen

Yes I am. Make a fucking mean curry too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 09:27:51
wait.... are you an accountant?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 09:30:31
wait.... are you an accountant?

Doesn't LL drive lorries? Or did you misread mean as bean (bean counting??)

 :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 09:32:43
When can we expect Sue Gray's report to land? Am I right in saying Gray is not independent and is employed by Boris?

No deadline, but probably next week. She's not employed directly by Boris/The Conservative Party, but she is a civil servant so semi-independent of government. She is also, as I understand, writing a report on the facts of what happened, and the 'why' is more or less out of scope - she's not going to come out and say, for example 'Johnson's leadership style led to a culture of thinking rules did not apply at No. 10' (or you know, the opposite).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pookemon on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 09:42:10
When can we expect Sue Gray's report to land? Am I right in saying Gray is not independent and is employed by Boris?

Wednesday/Thursday next week. She is investigating her boss and her bosses boss, and will present the report to the latter, who has the power to edit, redact and spin as they see fit.

I suspect a whitewash as far as is possible, and her resignation to follow not long after as she wasn't able to do a proper investigation or her words have been censored or spun out of context.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 09:47:50
Wednesday/Thursday next week. She is investigating her boss and her bosses boss, and will present the report to the latter, who has the power to edit, redact and spin as they see fit.

I suspect a whitewash as far as is possible, and her resignation to follow not long after as she wasn't able to do a proper investigation or her words have been censored or spun out of context.

Agreed, albeit I'm leaning more towards the outcome being a dame hood if she gets it right rather than resignation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 09:55:16
Wednesday/Thursday next week. She is investigating her boss and her bosses boss, and will present the report to the latter, who has the power to edit, redact and spin as they see fit.

I suspect a whitewash as far as is possible, and her resignation to follow not long after as she wasn't able to do a proper investigation or her words have been censored or spun out of context.

You forgot the part about her being made a Dame when Boris is cleared


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 10:02:33
Quote from: Bob's Orange
Quote
wait.... are you an accountant?
Doesn't LL drive lorries? Or did you misread mean as bean (bean counting??)

 :hmmm:

ignore me


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pookemon on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 10:05:40
Agreed, albeit I'm leaning more towards the outcome being a dame hood if she gets it right rather than resignation.

It may come down to whether she was actually at any of the gatherings.   

She may get a dame hood and job back anyway, from the new PM, if she lays the final boot in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 10:06:02
Doesn't LL drive lorries? Or did you misread mean as bean (bean counting??)

 :hmmm:

LL is a respected white van man


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 10:08:37
BREAKING: Senior backbencher and committee chair Will Wragg accuses whips, No 10 and spads of blackmail.

MPs have faced "pressure & intimidation" for calling for PM to go.

Including cutting investment from constituencies and releasing embarrassing stories.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 10:23:39
Errr Hitler quite admired Churchill.

I doubt that when he had a revolver stuck in his gob.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 10:45:35
Peston reporting that Sue Gray has found the email saying the party should not go ahead


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 10:50:48
BREAKING: Senior backbencher and committee chair Will Wragg accuses whips, No 10 and spads of blackmail.

MPs have faced "pressure & intimidation" for calling for PM to go.

Including cutting investment from constituencies and releasing embarrassing stories.

Its hilarious how they are turning on each other, almost as funny as the Johnson/Trump fan boys losing their shit on social media at the moment.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 11:15:51
Quote from: tans
Peston reporting that Sue Gray has found the email saying the party should not go ahead

no doubt Johnson "didn't know".

Martin Reynolds will be toast


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 12:22:26
BREAKING: Senior backbencher and committee chair Will Wragg accuses whips, No 10 and spads of blackmail.

MPs have faced "pressure & intimidation" for calling for PM to go.

Including cutting investment from constituencies and releasing embarrassing stories.

I hope he's smart enough not to have made these allegations without evidence to back them up.  If he has, you'll simply see a closing of ranks and an early end to his own political career.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 12:37:15
I think the funniest outcome would be for enough letters to go in force the no confidence vote and then Johnson to win it (IIRC there cannot be another for 12 months after the first) so he has to just uselessly sit there, being openly laughed at by all and sundry, with no authority, haemorrhaging votes, and hating every second of it.

Whilst Starmer did well at PMQ's yesterday (bloody hell how bad would he have to be not to have done well, albeit Corbyn would probably have led on a question regarding bus services an Anglesey), I think the winner of the day was the SNP MP who when debating the relaxing in covid rules asked whether the PM was "getting rid of the covid rules, simply because he doesn’t understand them?”


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: joeydubya on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 13:01:41
BREAKING: Senior backbencher and committee chair Will Wragg accuses whips, No 10 and spads of blackmail.

MPs have faced "pressure & intimidation" for calling for PM to go.

Including cutting investment from constituencies and releasing embarrassing stories.

Is that not their job? Est quod est.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 13:34:14
not if the alogation of threatening to defund their constituency/leak embarrassing stories is true


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 13:47:26
I hope he's smart enough not to have made these allegations without evidence to back them up.  If he has, you'll simply see a closing of ranks and an early end to his own political career.

As Johnson is rolling out the old chestnut 'Seen no evidence' excuse rather than bluntly denying it was happening suggests that Wragg has whatever he needs to back it up.

Is that not their job? Est quod est.

Personal threats to career progression/ dishing the dirt is the way the whipping system has always worked. But threatening to withdraw constituency funding, thus affecting constituents rather than the MP themselves, would be of totally different order.

But then again as the PM one was involved in a plot to beat a journalist up its not a surprise really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 14:23:44
Makes me think of the Tebbit caricature in Spitting Image  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Moss on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 14:37:35
LL is a respected white van man

and definitely a Cunt


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 15:27:39
and definitely a Cunt

All us van drivers are 👍


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: joeydubya on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 16:31:00
But threatening to withdraw constituency funding, thus affecting constituents rather than the MP themselves, would be of totally different order.

That was the Conservative headed letter to residents of Chesham and Amersham, a fairly safe seat - whose byelection was only triggered by the passing of a popular Conservative MP. Backfired spectacularly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 16:35:39
and definitely a Cunt

Thank you for that glowing testimonial. Your sperm donors must be delighted that you turned into such a charming specimen of humanity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Moss on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 18:03:50
Thank you for that glowing testimonial. Your sperm donors must be delighted that you turned into such a charming specimen of humanity.

 I was going to post the link to the Steve Coogan song - but can't work it out - everyone's a bit of a Cunt sometimes. Clearly you are more than most. Chill out you Tory twat, as Bill Hicks says, its just a ride.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 20:18:30
I was going to post the link to the Steve Coogan song - but can't work it out - everyone's a bit of a Cunt sometimes. Clearly you are more than most. Chill out you Tory twat, as Bill Hicks says, its just a ride.

I don’t fucking care, you called me a cunt for no real reason. Your card is marked.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Moss on Thursday, January 20, 2022, 21:54:18
 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, January 21, 2022, 08:27:51
Haha you better watch out!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, January 25, 2022, 11:16:08
Publication of the Sue Gray report is now being delayed until after the Met have concluded their investigation.  Tricky for the Tories now.  The report was providing MPs with an excuse to avoid breaking cover.  But now publication is not going to be imminent, waiting for publication before deciding whether to call for Johnson's resignation is no longer viable.

Johnson himself will see this, and may choose to take the matter in to his own hands before the flurry of letters goes in to Graham Brady.  I've never seen a PM resign in disgrace during my lifetime.  But could well be about to change.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, January 25, 2022, 11:39:04
tricky? I'd say it's ideal.

do nothing "pending police investigation" and see if it all blows over

you can't tell me either Gray or Dick (or both) aren't complicit in the timing of this.

eventually some people will be found to have broken the rules and will have to resign. it won't be Johnson

whitewash


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, January 25, 2022, 11:42:29
tricky? I'd say it's ideal.

do nothing "pending police investigation" and see if it all blows over

you can't tell me either Gray or Dick (or both) aren't complicit in the timing of this.

eventually some people will be found to have broken the rules and will have to resign. it won't be Johnson

whitewash

Thing is the Met are complicit in this as they counted everyone into and out of Downing Street, so if it were a real investigation it would be done by a third party force... But then again the Daniel Morgan investigation reported the Met is institutionally corrupt so why should we be surprised!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, January 25, 2022, 11:42:54
indeed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, January 25, 2022, 15:55:42
So Sue Gray is publishing her report, she has now cleared publication with the Met and plans to hand it over to Boris Johnson later this week.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, January 25, 2022, 16:04:38
"But now Downing Street says there are talks about “what is suitable to publish”.

BBC


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, January 25, 2022, 16:41:06
"But now Downing Street says there are talks about “what is suitable to publish”.

BBC

BBC…


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, January 25, 2022, 17:06:21
GB news reporting it could be tomorrow too if that helps you

https://www.gbnews.uk/news/sue-gray-inquiry-into-no-10-lockdown-parties-could-be-released-tomorrow-despite-met-police-investigation/212973

mind you, their lead story is we are pretending we will fight the Russians if they invade Ukraine. soapy tit wank


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, January 25, 2022, 17:18:58
GB news reporting it could be tomorrow too if that helps you

https://www.gbnews.uk/news/sue-gray-inquiry-into-no-10-lockdown-parties-could-be-released-tomorrow-despite-met-police-investigation/212973

mind you, their lead story is we are pretending we will fight the Russians if they invade Ukraine. soapy tit wank

🙄 GB News..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, January 25, 2022, 17:22:02
thought that would be your thing 😜


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, January 31, 2022, 14:17:38
The Gray Report (post-Met intervention version) has been published, and is almost comically short, containing no facts whatsoever about any of the gatherings, just general advice that amounts to "yeah, you probably shouldn't have acted like that and should try to stop doing it again in the future".

I'm sure this will end well.

It does mention that the Met seem to think 12 of the 16 reported gatherings meet the bar for criminal investigation - and she decided to not talk about the other four anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, January 31, 2022, 14:21:04
So completely pointless then thanks to the Mets interfering.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, January 31, 2022, 14:26:24
thought that would be your thing 😜

What are you suggesting? Not a swivelled eyed gammon or some such childish name? Describing what I have no idea. I take my news such as news is nowadays from various sources.

So, again, what is my thing?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, January 31, 2022, 14:27:20
Gray report: What were you expecting ffs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 14:31:25
As predicted (it wasn't difficult) the report essentially reads as...


Sue Gray Report:

[REDACTED]


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, January 31, 2022, 14:34:06
The Gray Report (post-Met intervention version) has been published, and is almost comically short, containing no facts whatsoever about any of the gatherings, just general advice that amounts to "yeah, you probably shouldn't have acted like that and should try to stop doing it again in the future".

I'm sure this will end well.

It does mention that the Met seem to think 12 of the 16 reported gatherings meet the bar for criminal investigation - and she decided to not talk about the other four anyway.

50% of the document is cover, blank or annexes...  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, January 31, 2022, 14:34:55
Quote
So, again, what is my thing?
obviously that your right wing views lead me to conclude GB news would be on 24/7 in your house.

this is a very serious point of view, which you can tell by my serious smiley emoji 😜


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, January 31, 2022, 14:35:10
50% of the document is cover, blank or annexes...  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

It does remind me a bit of the first year Uni essays I handed in when I'd started four hours before the deadline and just wanted to get a grudging 45%...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, January 31, 2022, 14:40:31
obviously that your right wing views lead me to conclude GB news would be on 24/7 in your house.

this is a very serious point of view, which you can tell by my serious smiley emoji 😜

That's unfair, GB News were commemorating the anniversary of Churchill's funeral yesterday, by interviewing a Churchill impersonator in the studio, that's the hard hitting stuff those wokists commies on the BBC are keeping from the patriots!  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, January 31, 2022, 14:41:07
It does remind me a bit of the first year Uni essays I handed in when I'd started four hours before the deadline and just wanted to get a grudging 45%...

Yeah my first thought was when you try and spread things out to get the page count up!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: fuzzy on Monday, January 31, 2022, 14:43:52
So completely pointless then thanks to the Mets interfering.

If investigating potential breaches of legislation as required to do so is interfering then yes, they have interfered.

I dread to think of the shit the Met would get if they decided to say "Fuck it, Its the PM, he can do what he wants" and turned a blind eye to allegations.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, January 31, 2022, 14:48:16
If investigating potential breaches of legislation as required to do so is interfering then yes, they have interfered.
Given there is no criminal trial coming out of this, just fixed penalty notices, why exactly has the report been breached.  There is no sub judice.


Quote
I dread to think of the shit the Met would get if they decided to say "Fuck it, Its the PM, he can do what he wants" and turned a blind eye to allegations.

They did exactly that right up to the day before the report was published. Also, see point above.

Its not that they investigating. Its the dubious nature of the timing and the blocking of the report.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Monday, January 31, 2022, 14:50:53
The more I see if this shite  the more I just think Boris is a posh Lee Power.

He’s trying to drag out the inevitable so he can keep his nose in the trough for as long as possible.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: fuzzy on Monday, January 31, 2022, 15:08:53
Given there is no criminal trial coming out of this, just fixed penalty notices, why exactly has the report been breached.  There is no sub judice.


They did exactly that right up to the day before the report was published. Also, see point above.

Its not that they investigating. Its the dubious nature of the timing and the blocking of the report.
The Met, like most police forces don't spend their time running out a list of things they are investigating to all in sundry. Sometimes letting every Tom, Dick and Batch know that investigations are ongoing can be counterproductive as shit gets hidden down the back of the sofa/ incinerator etc.

The pending publication of the report may have forced their hand in asking for the report to be witheld/ redacted until investigations are complete.

Whether matters are sub judice or not, letting the cat out of the bag hinders an effective investigation and, breaches of the COVID regulations may not be the only thing within the scope of this investigation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 15:35:43
Former PM Theresa May giving a sternly faced talking to BoJo.

A fucking circus in HoP as per.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 15:46:48
Westminster Leader, SNP Ian Blackford calls for PM to resign. BoJo laughs at him.

Blackford states BoJo has misled the house.
Speaker asks him to withdraw word.
He doesn't and continues to say the PM has misled the house.

Speaker says he'll have to action for him to withdraw from the house.

Blackford *livid* continues to state "misled". Later, under pressure and regretfully changes comment to "inadvertently misled".

Speaker starts to announce withdrawal of Blackford and then gets told he doesn't need to.

Blackfords comments are followed and backed by two Tory MPs.

BoJo continually flustered as usual. Totally contempt cuuuunnttt!

And No.10 will continue to party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, January 31, 2022, 15:50:40
God he is detestable isn't he? Stubborn lying rat of a man.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 15:58:49
I'm not sure if anyone follows/likes Jim'll Paint It. But he always nails the satire that is mostly too accurate - especially when regarding political artwork in MS Paint.

Here's his latest offering:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJ9zmoUXIAQh-hk?format=jpg&name=4096x4096


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, January 31, 2022, 15:59:35
yeah, love Jims work


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:01:02
God he is detestable isn't he? Stubborn lying rat of a man.

It's just constant rebuttal. It's not democracy for that I'm sure.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:01:07
The Met, like most police forces don't spend their time running out a list of things they are investigating to all in sundry. Sometimes letting every Tom, Dick and Batch know that investigations are ongoing can be counterproductive as shit gets hidden down the back of the sofa/ incinerator etc.

The pending publication of the report may have forced their hand in asking for the report to be witheld/ redacted until investigations are complete.

Whether matters are sub judice or not, letting the cat out of the bag hinders an effective investigation and, breaches of the COVID regulations may not be the only thing within the scope of this investigation.

Difficult issue for plod.

More and more we have see them make a decision about the law based on the circumstances rather than enforce the law as the law.

Stood and watched as a mob tore down a statue in Bristol. Whatever you feel about what happened and why, it was against the law and nothing was done, thats a fact.

This situation is in reverse, everyone wants the Met to get involved retrospectively but i doubt very much they would do anything if i reported a neighbour having a knees up in a garden in Fulham against the law/rules at the time, so why would they do anything in this instance?
Because of the circumstances.

Slippery slope IMO when Plod pick and choose.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:02:22
yeah, love Jims work

It's David Cameron on the roof (avec pig) for me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:04:09
obviously that your right wing views lead me to conclude GB news would be on 24/7 in your house.

this is a very serious point of view, which you can tell by my serious smiley emoji 😜

I honestly don’t get all the screaming abdabs about GB news. They’re a news outlet, so are the BBC, SKY, Al Jezzera, CNN, Fox, ABC, the list goes on. Is it because the title GB is so offensive? As I have stated, though I don’t fucking know I need to justify anything to anyone on this site if indeed I am, firstly I’m not as right wing as you think and likely as not less right than many on here who are left. Secondly I watch very, very little news on any station nowadays, I really, really couldn’t careless. As for the papers, we’ll not bought one for years and the online stuff I just look at the headlines laugh and move on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:07:12
Given there is no criminal trial coming out of this, just fixed penalty notices, why exactly has the report been breached.  There is no sub judice.

To cover it up.

The met had officers operating as bouncers for these shindigs, then didn't want to even investigate it after it happened until pressure grew. Some bollocks about it being

They're a corrupt laughing stock as well. Cressida Dick and she should be walking with Bojo as well. It clearly runs deep.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:08:47
...i doubt very much they would do anything if i reported a neighbour having a knees up in a garden in Fulham against the law/rules at the time, so why would they do anything in this instance?
Because of the circumstances.

Slippery slope IMO when Plod pick and choose.



With all due respect to your hypothetical neighbour and yourself and whilst it would seem rather double standards in law and order...I would hazard a guess that your neighbour isn't supposed to be running this country or considered a world leader of said country that has the 5th largest economy in the world ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:09:41
I honestly don’t get all the screaming abdabs about GB news.

Agree. The channel seems a bit tinpot but some people are quite happy to consume bias media all day but they're the tipping point for them for some reason. Channel 4 show plenty of left bias for example.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:11:10
With all due respect to your hypothetical neighbour and yourself and whilst it would seem rather double standards in law and order...I would hazard a guess that your neighbour isn't supposed to be running this country or considered a world leader of said country that has the 5th largest economy in the world ;)

Plot twist, Rishi Sunak is a Swindon fan, he DID report him and was most upset when the met refused to investigate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:13:49
With all due respect to your hypothetical neighbour and yourself and whilst it would seem rather double standards in law and order...I would hazard a guess that your neighbour isn't supposed to be running this country or considered a world leader of said country that has the 5th largest economy in the world ;)

Spot On!

But if i took a grinder to a statue in the middle of Bristol tonight i would be nicked! But if i was in a politically motivated mob, perhaps i wouldnt.

I see you understand the point im making, im not defending what happened at Number 10 at all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:14:32
Agree. The channel seems a bit tinpot but some people are quite happy to consume bias media all day but they're the tipping point for them for some reason. Channel 4 show plenty of left bias for example.

It's all relative in some ways. See I think Channel 4 is quite balanced. Maybe I lean a little more left so it feels more balanced to me. To someone more centre weighted might feel it's a little left bias. To someone leaning a little right of centre might feel it's quite a bit left bias :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:20:12
When's the next knees up?  :pint:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:21:43
Spot On!

But if i took a grinder to a statue in the middle of Bristol tonight i would be nicked! But if i was in a politically motivated mob, perhaps i wouldnt.

I see you understand the point im making, im not defending what happened at Number 10 at all.

Indeed.

Harking back to the Slave Trader statue. It rightfully went but possibly should have gone via a more correct and legal channel (not the Bristol Channel) and I do see your point. Mutiny is not really the modern way but how apt that mutiny happened in Bristol :)

Absolutely I do and I know you weren't disregarding things currently being discussed surrounding No.10.

Also, the public may want to look at what bill might be being passed through while/whilst all this is going on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:21:55
L-L it was a flippant tongue in cheek remark .

like when we accuse Paul D of bring a pipe smoking, quiche eating, lefty hippy do gooder


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:22:50
Accuse?  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:23:16
When's the next knees up?  :pint:

Likely BoJo and his chums will be having one straight after this statement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:23:52
But if i took a grinder to a statue in the middle of Bristol tonight i would be nicked! But if i was in a politically motivated mob, perhaps i wouldnt.


Point of order, you would get nicked but not necessarily convicted by a jury of your peers.

This commons debate is proper mental, its a new one to find a PM using a criminal investigation he is implicated in as a shield. Having waited in vain for Sue Gray to tell him, the Prime Minister is now waiting for Cressida Dick to tell him whether he attended the party in his own flat on 13 November 2020 - that must have been one fuck of a party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:25:01
L-L it was a flippant tongue in cheek remark .

like when we accuse Paul D of bring a pipe smoking, quiche eating, lefty hippy do gooder

Is quiche a left wing food? I've always assumed it was a bit of a middle-of-the-road swing voter party buffet item.

The left wing quiche would definitely have goats cheese in it though. And caramelised onions.

Quiche Lorraine is probably centre-right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:26:19
What the fuck is Rob Roberts on?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:27:56

Quiche Lorraine is probably centre-right.


FFS you're telling me after all these years I'm a closet "righty"!

Is the QL due to the tiny pieces of gammon in it? ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:42:28
Is quiche a left wing food?

(https://reddwarfquotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/give-quiche-a-chance.jpg)

QED


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:48:45
Quiche is an obvious marker of the left wing tendencies of a person, much like Avocado on Toast is in the breast pocket of the more recently spited Liberal Elite.

I thought the old skool right wingers were often found with Foie Gras slipping out the side of their mouth, with the more recent Populists dragging boxes of Birds Eye Roast Beef with Gravy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:49:10
Spot On!

But if i took a grinder to a statue in the middle of Bristol tonight i would be nicked! But if i was in a politically motivated mob, perhaps i wouldnt.

I see you understand the point im making, im not defending what happened at Number 10 at all.

I think you'll find they were nicked for it, and prosecuted and that a jury of their peers chose to find them not guilty, as is their legal right.

And it's worth saying that if the latest current police and crime bill gets passed, with the kind of sentences for non-violent protests it proposes, we're likely to see a whole lot more of that kind of verdict; where juries are fully aware that the defendants have committed the offences but refuse to convict them because of the disproportionate sentences that might get handed down.

If Tories don't think that rape is a significantly more serious offence than damaging a statue then there's questions to be asked about their moral compass.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, January 31, 2022, 16:56:03
The points of orders at the end of this are going to be insane. The PM will hopefully be asked to withdraw comments about Starmer & Saville (repeating a much loved far right slur) and his accusation that the Labour front bench are on drugs.

(Yes for those of you who didn't see this, you read that correctly!)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 17:00:36
The points of orders at the end of this are going to be insane. The PM will hopefully be asked to withdraw comments about Starmer & Saville (repeating a much loved far right slur) and his accusation that the Labour front bench are on drugs.

(Yes for those of you who didn't see this, you read that correctly!)

I certainly did. When the PM was questioned about excessive alcohol consumption (and culture) in No.10 and furthered if drug abuse was an issue too.

His rebuttal was for his RHF to ask his members on the Labour front bench.

In fact, most of it is not even rebuttal so much. It's continued obfuscation every time he opens his privileged mouth.

Edit: If Ian Blackford was pressured to withdraw his "misled" comment then BoJo should certainly be made to withdraw his comment you mention above.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 17:20:42
Lizz Truss: Those in the Kremlin would not be allowed to enter the UK.

Met with mostly laughter. It's almost as if members in the HoP might be aware that the UK harbours Kremlin officials (in the past or currently).


Truss finalises her statement by nearly legally condemning everything she had just said.

...And I condemn...commend this statement to the house.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 17:23:32
Mind you, at least this is more of an adult discussion in Parliament, now that most of the daycare lot has been picked up by their parents and gone to the HoP bar home.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, January 31, 2022, 17:43:40
Lizz Truss: Those in the Kremlin would not be allowed to enter the UK.

Met with mostly laughter. It's almost as if members in the HoP might be aware that the UK harbours Kremlin officials (in the past or currently).


Truss finalises her statement by nearly legally condemning everything she had just said.

...And I condemn...commend this statement to the house.

Good to hear that the Tories are going to clamp down on Russian money. Perhaps they could start with the £1.9m given to Tories since Boris Johnson became Prime Minister.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 17:46:03
Good to hear that the Tories are going to clamp down on Russian money. Perhaps they could start with the £1.9m given to Tories since Boris Johnson became Prime Minister.

I know you likely say the initial with a very firm tongue placed in your cheek but I have to ask...do you really think they will clamp down on it? Especially regarding your latter sentence ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, January 31, 2022, 18:08:05
There will be many decent Tory constituency MPs who will lose their seat because of their leader(s).

Who could, hand on heart, vote for a chance of that buffoon continuing as PM.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 18:17:54
There will be many decent Tory constituency MPs who will lose their seat because of their leader(s).

Who could, hand on heart, vote for a chance of that buffoon continuing as PM.

Totally agree Aud. Several in parliament that are trying to do everything by the book as it were, I think would probably seriously consider whether continuing in a career in parliament is the moral thing to be doing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, January 31, 2022, 18:20:17
Javid states the ending of vaccination as a condition of deployment in Health & Social Care at statute. Finishes with the caveat to remind all H&SC workers of their moral and professional responsibility to be vaccinated.

Call me a kipper but he actually talks more sense and like a PM than that blonde manchild ever could.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, February 1, 2022, 08:04:59
There will be many decent Tory constituency MPs who will lose their seat because of their leader(s).

Who could, hand on heart, vote for a chance of that buffoon continuing as PM.

Most Tory voters will blindly retort with ‘they’re all the same’ and continue to put a cross in a blue box. You see it on this thread itself


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, February 1, 2022, 08:13:33
yup, agree Dave. That's generally been the case although brexit affected the last one.

it's the floaters like me who will swing it. I could never vote for this Tory party. But many seem to be 'yeahbut Starmer'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, February 1, 2022, 08:57:31
yup, agree Dave. That's generally been the case although brexit affected the last one.

it's the floaters like me who will swing it. I could never vote for this Tory party. But many seem to be 'yeahbut Starmer'

The same who were yeah but Corbyn last time round. The below is quite interesting and rather dispels the idea, loved by the loyalists' that Johnson is a particularly popular politician. His approval ratings were below 0 even when he was elected and only went up when he got Covid.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FKQkYQvXIAEz8OO?format=jpg&name=small)

 Now I accept that PR and news management is not my area of expertise but sending out a clearly tired and emotional Nadine Dorries channelling her inner Catherine Tate in response to a story raising concern regarding a concerning drinking culture in government doesn't seem to have been the most sensible approach? https://twitter.com/KarlTurnerMP/status/1488242449394896904?t=2K0rsxMSmuB2FoCKyA_IMg&s=19

When all you have left prepared to defend you on camera is a drunk Dorries and a bloke with a cat on his head things must be bad!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Tuesday, February 1, 2022, 10:02:02
Raab had a bash at it this morning, not very convincingly, but he tried bless him


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, February 5, 2022, 06:25:27
Oooo, a Labour paedo. Well, well, well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Saturday, February 5, 2022, 08:10:23
Oooo, a Labour paedo. Well, well, well.
And this here is what is wrong with politics and it's followers. A paedo is a paedo an absolute abhorrent sick cunt but still it's fun enough to use as a dig at someone you don't like. Fucking pathetic tbh


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Quagmire on Saturday, February 5, 2022, 08:51:24
Oooo, a Labour paedo. Well, well, well.

You are very late to the party, he was found guilty a month ago.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Saturday, February 5, 2022, 10:57:05
Is the Jason Spacey who gets a credit at the end of the latest Toryboy mashup our alumnus?

https://youtu.be/iJNu0eylAp0


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Boy About Town on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 08:56:04
Russia attacking Ukraine from multiple borders and angles. This will get messy. Putin comparable to Hitler.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 09:06:21
Suspect it's probably a new thread, but it's just very depressing. It's been coming for months now, but the actual sight of it (and the cynical nature of Putin's Declaration of War being recorded three days ago) is just... a bit numbing I suppose.

As for the impact on UK domestic politics, it would be good if this leads to a more sensible debate on Russian money in London and in (mostly but not exclusively) Conservative party funding. This sort of thing is why I'm generally in favour of public funding for political parties, even though it feels a bit weird to do it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: normy on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 10:46:58
I never thought there would ever be a major invasion in Europe in my lifetime.  So much like how Hitler started his catastrophe.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 10:53:06
What is Putin hoping to gain from this? Simply put, is he literally looking for Russian to eventually take over Ukraine in some kind of power hungry land grab?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 10:53:49
trying to recreate the USSR one assumes. or the beneficial bits of it

and there's not much the world can do other than sanction and watch. escalation can't happen against the world's second largest military power


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 10:59:23
Strange that a UN authorized coalition was mobilized when a sovereign patch of sand was invaded in 1990.

Not this time it would seem.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 11:03:44
Quote from: Wobbly Bob
Strange that a UN authorized coalition was mobilized when a sovereign patch of sand was invaded in 1990.

Not this time it would seem.


well, they didn't have a massive army and a nuclear arsenal did they


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 11:10:59

well, they didn't have a massive army and a nuclear arsenal did they

It's a pity that Ukraine membership of NATO wasn't fast tracked.
At least the Baltic states can rest easy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 11:11:57
trying to recreate the USSR one assumes. or the beneficial bits of it

and there's not much the world can do other than sanction and watch. escalation can't happen against the world's second largest military power

Sadly it had similar trends to 21st century UK politics, a nationalist cult harking back to an apparently glorious past that never actually existed, for British Empire read USSR.

Whether deliberately or by lucky accident Putin has played a very successful long game, got 4 years of the fairly benign (towards Russia) Trump into the US then got Brexit to economically and diplomatically wreak the UK and reduce the influence of the EU then got a compliant fool into government in UK whose main funding is almost entirely Russian sourced, all money well spent.

There are ways that sanctions could bite, but will the governments of many western states who own existence and economies are very dependent upon Roubles actually act?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 11:29:10
And whilst sanctions are obviously realistically the only way we can go with Russia, the real losers here are the innocent Russian people who are going to suffer as the Russian economy takes a massive hit down the line!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 11:35:36
And whilst sanctions are obviously realistically the only way we can go with Russia, the real losers here are the innocent Russian people who are going to suffer as the Russian economy takes a massive hit down the line!

This is an interesting take, which many who know way more than you or I (unless you are a Russian expert! ;)) seem to suggest would be a) altogether more successful than financial sanctions and b) not really affect the average man in the street.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/23/obsession-sanctions-oligarchs-putin-hurt-russian-leader-ukraine


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 11:37:58
The real losers are the innocent Ukrainian people.

Could end up being tough on the ordinary Russian people depending on the severity of the sanctions of course.
In which case they should know what they have to do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 11:54:35
The real losers are the innocent Ukrainian people.

Could end up being tough on the ordinary Russian people depending on the severity of the sanctions of course.
In which case they should know what they have to do.

Sorry of course it goes without saying that the poor Ukrainian people are the real losers, I was merely thinking of it from the Russian 'side' so apologies if my comment was seen as callous in anyway, I assure it wasn't intended that way. As usual with war, there are few 'winners', only fucking Putin's ego.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 11:57:49
This is an interesting take, which many who know way more than you or I (unless you are a Russian expert! ;)) seem to suggest would be a) altogether more successful than financial sanctions and b) not really affect the average man in the street.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/23/obsession-sanctions-oligarchs-putin-hurt-russian-leader-ukraine

I'm basing that information on a military fella who was interviewed on the BBC this morning. He seemed to intimate that sanctions would realistically be the only way to force Russia to rethink, however could have longer term impacts on the general public. He was no economist or anything but I guess logically it could happen.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 12:20:45
Sorry of course it goes without saying that the poor Ukrainian people are the real losers, I was merely thinking of it from the Russian 'side' so apologies if my comment was seen as callous in anyway, I assure it wasn't intended that way. As usual with war, there are few 'winners', only fucking Putin's ego.

No need for apologies, wasn't a pop at you BO.
I know you'd see the bigger picture as a compassionate person anyway.

I'm just finding this very saddening.
Shouldn't be happening in this day and age but shouldn't be surprised either I guess.
It's depressing that so many countries still end up with a complete nutter in charge.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 16:35:48
Invading Chernobyl now


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Boy About Town on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 17:12:38
House of Commons in unity over the sanctions. Good to see no point scoring at such a time. Sleepy Joe needs to also crunch down on the Russians in meaningful way. The losers are the innocents of these two countries who are victims.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 17:17:09
Invading Chernobyl now
Bloody hell! Their troops will have 3 arms and 2 heads now!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: china red on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 17:27:37
Friend of mine opened a cafe in Kiev earlier this year, he’s now hiking the 400km to the Romanian border……….


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 18:28:44
Quote
Friend of mine opened a cafe in Kiev earlier this year, he’s now hiking the 400km to the Romanian border……….
Bloody hell, safe journey to him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sippo on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 18:45:24
As if cunt chops is scared of a few sanctions?! He’s probably laughing his tits off riding his horse half naked.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 18:53:30
Friend of mine opened a cafe in Kiev earlier this year, he’s now hiking the 400km to the Romanian border……….

Bloody hell mate, that's really sobering. Hope he gets out OK. Fingers crossed for him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: bathford on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 19:01:37
I have relatives living in both Russia and the Ukraine. One has had her nephew called up by the Russian army although he lives in Donetsk.

He has been called up to fight his neighbours.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 22:12:27
.
https://youtu.be/FDwx9JOy4LU


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, February 24, 2022, 23:22:17
Reg would be lapping this up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, February 25, 2022, 10:20:01
This is in danger of getting messy quickly. One of the sanctions mooted is to ban Russian from using Swift, but some European countries are against it. The Latvian deputy PM was asked which countries were digging in and he said he wouldn't name them, after listing Germany, Italy and Cyprus as 3.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, February 25, 2022, 10:33:25
This is in danger of getting messy quickly. One of the sanctions mooted is to ban Russian from using Swift, but some European countries are against it. The Latvian deputy PM was asked which countries were digging in and he said he wouldn't name them, after listing Germany, Italy and Cyprus as 3.

It's pure self-interest, every country wants to hit Russia as hard as possible without hurting their own country. Same reason oligarch-owned property is seemingly untouchable here. Pretty grim really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, February 25, 2022, 10:40:59
It's pure self-interest, every country wants to hit Russia as hard as possible without hurting their own country. Same reason oligarch-owned property is seemingly untouchable here. Pretty grim really.

Yeah I totally understand the reasoning, it's a pure clusterfuck.

I see the Champions league final has been moved to Paris. In other vaguely related news I also saw that Kerry Katona on loose women sent a message to Putin, I am sure these little things are helpful in their own way!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, February 25, 2022, 11:19:52
From a sporting point of view UEFA are in a tricky position if they persist with the Gazprom sponsorship.
Would love to be a fly on the wall for the upcoming executive committee meetings with the chief exec of Gazprom being on the board as well.

The Russian national team should probably be turfed out of the WC play offs.
I'm sure that Gianni Infantino, recipient of the Russian Order of Friendship from Putin himself is on the case.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, February 25, 2022, 13:16:36
I know there would be some immediate financial hardship, but I really do not understand why it is not a simple equation.  Shut the fuckers out of everything, now.  If they won't adhere to International Law, then play hardball.  Don't just freeze assets, seize them.  Every sport should have Russian teams excluded with immediate effect and cancel any sponsorship deals - most will have paid for the current year period - let them try suing for loss of advertising, simply sanction ALL Russian companies so they can't.

It's that or a mess in Ukraine.

If we won't do the former, then we should probably just turn the TV off and accept the latter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Moss on Friday, February 25, 2022, 13:22:06
https://youtu.be/SD4vkQMdg3s.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 25, 2022, 13:25:29
I also saw that Kerry Katona on loose women sent a message to Putin

Her words carry considerably less weight since she removed her atomic capability.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, February 25, 2022, 13:40:12
Her words carry considerably less weight since she removed her atomic capability.

 :clap:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: normy on Friday, February 25, 2022, 14:48:45
I know there would be some immediate financial hardship, but I really do not understand why it is not a simple equation.  Shut the fuckers out of everything, now.  If they won't adhere to International Law, then play hardball.  Don't just freeze assets, seize them.  Every sport should have Russian teams excluded with immediate effect and cancel any sponsorship deals - most will have paid for the current year period - let them try suing for loss of advertising, simply sanction ALL Russian companies so they can't.

It's that or a mess in Ukraine.

If we won't do the former, then we should probably just turn the TV off and accept the latter.

Agree with all that, but Germany and Italy, at least, are dragging their feet even about SWIFT it seems.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, February 25, 2022, 15:03:47
I know there would be some immediate financial hardship, but I really do not understand why it is not a simple equation.  Shut the fuckers out of everything, now.  If they won't adhere to International Law, then play hardball.  Don't just freeze assets, seize them.  Every sport should have Russian teams excluded with immediate effect and cancel any sponsorship deals - most will have paid for the current year period - let them try suing for loss of advertising, simply sanction ALL Russian companies so they can't.

It's that or a mess in Ukraine.

If we won't do the former, then we should probably just turn the TV off and accept the latter.

Agree with all that, albeit if we are going to play hardball re breaking international law its going to make our governments ideas moving forward rather tricky to implement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, February 25, 2022, 15:07:28
Agree with all that, but Germany and Italy, at least, are dragging their feet even about SWIFT it seems.

There was a guy on the news earlier (Justin Urquhart Steward, some financial bod) that was saying that even if Russia is banned from using SWIFT, there are ways around it - TELEX trading I think he mentioned - He stated there was a better way of going about it but I can't remember exactly what it was, something to do with Dollar conversion or something that all countries use for trades apparently. He said by removing this option, Russia would not be able to Trade at all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, February 26, 2022, 22:23:37
Nice to see Kevin Foster support the Ukrainians wishing to flee murder.

Not much fruit around in February mind


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, February 28, 2022, 13:12:37
 You quite honestly couldn't make this stuff up.... https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1498270373565157378.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 13:28:31
Blessedly quiet in here for a while, thought I'd ruin that.

Spring statement today, headlines being 5p off fuel duty (what are the chances of that actually being reflected at the pump?) and raising the NI threshold to match the income tax one.

Seems to be good news for people earning low but liveable wages, but not much in the way of support for anyone who isn't working. Bearing in mind the NI rate is going up too, apparently this means less NI for anyone on under £35k or so. Presumably also helps anyone earning above the NI upper earnings limit, as I don't think he raised that at the same time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 13:48:05
5p off fuel is a bit tight. The government here are giving everyone (with an income of less than €30,000) 60 free litres of fuel a month - equal to 22c off a litre.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 13:58:20
I'm not sure a vague promise of a possible tax cut in 2 years time is going to help too many people, especially when you see what the OBR/ONS are saying...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOiZsgmXEAMlE4X?format=jpg&name=medium)

Sadly I fear a lot of the population are gouing to be royally fucked in the next 12 months.  :no:



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 14:00:00
Blessedly quiet in here for a while, thought I'd ruin that.

Spring statement today, headlines being 5p off fuel duty (what are the chances of that actually being reflected at the pump?) and raising the NI threshold to match the income tax one.

Seems to be good news for people earning low but liveable wages, but not much in the way of support for anyone who isn't working. Bearing in mind the NI rate is going up too, apparently this means less NI for anyone on under £35k or so. Presumably also helps anyone earning above the NI upper earnings limit, as I don't think he raised that at the same time.

Are you talking about the net effect of the 1.25% NI increase and the raising of the lower threshold?




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 14:02:32
Are you talking about the net effect of the 1.25% NI increase and the raising of the lower threshold?

Yes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 14:08:13
Property market crash?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 14:09:47
Everyone benefits then, thought he would have pushed £3k up on the upper limit, but hey ho.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 14:13:35
The local election results in May will deliver a half term report of sorts I guess.

The heating will be going off at the end of the month regardless of temperature.
Lucky to have been working from home these last few years with minimal car use.
Everyone on average income or below will have to tighten the purse strings with the squeeze on disposable income.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 14:24:57
Property market crash?
Possibly. Given house price growth many people who have bought recently will have pushed themselves to the limit. Doubling and potentially trebling of gas and electricity is going to really Hurst allied to petrol, inflation and ni increase and interest rates increasing I can see a lot of people struggling. It's a bit of a shitstorm.
It's one thing being able to afford a house another keeping it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 16:12:24
I think for a while now the writing has been on the wall regarding things getting tighter for people (granted I don't think many could have see just how grim it would become)
Not quite sure how the 'must have it now, living life on credit' generation will cope - going to be a lot of crying videos on social media (providing they can pay the internet bills that it)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 17:29:19
5p off fuel is a bit tight.

Given it can go up that much in the space of a day or two its pretty pointless. £2.50-3 for your average tank isn't going to address the issue.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 17:30:15
going to be a lot of crying videos on social media (providing they can pay the internet bills that it)

And some that will genuinely have to choose between heat and food.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 17:45:20
And some that will genuinely have to choose between heat and food.



But having the latest iPhone will still be priority for some!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 19:45:28
But having the latest iPhone will still be priority for some!

Spoken like a true Daily Mail reader.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 20:01:16
Spoken like a true Daily Mail reader.

Not at all just my own observations😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @MacPhlea on Thursday, March 24, 2022, 01:15:40
I'm not sure a vague promise of a possible tax cut in 2 years time is going to help too many people, especially when you see what the OBR/ONS are saying...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOiZsgmXEAMlE4X?format=jpg&name=medium)

Sadly I fear a lot of the population are gouing to be royally fucked in the next 12 months.  :no:



We have been walking a knife edge for a long time.  A lot of households have been riding a debt carousel  for years with crazy amounts of credit and lenders have been trying to find news ways to keep them ‘afloat’ with the latest thing being ‘buy now pay later’.

We’re now heading for the perfect storm where unsecured credit lenders will sit below a choice of paying a mortgage, paying for food, paying heating, paying for fuel to get to work and a rising rate of inflation and interest rates.

No-one will come out of this unscathed because even if you don’t have any credit or unsecured debt, the others will still bite.  

Will we see a property crash like the 89/90?  I think that depends.  89/90 was fuelled by a lot of people trying to move up the property ladder and selling their houses at the same time as an influx of people being unable to pay their mortgage due to rising inflation and interest rates and all trying to sell at the same time with a net result that the market became flooded and prices dropped like a stone.

The key difference between now and then is that there are a lot more properties owned by investors in buy to let who are less likely to panic sell BUT as an investor they are not going to rent at a loss (if the cost of the mortgage is more than the rent they receive) nor put up with a tenant who can’t pay their rent. Plus, it’s difficult to get back on the property ladder once you’re off it.

Right now I have a lot of ‘luxury’ direct debits that I am earmarking for belt tightening… sky, Netflix, Prime etc that I need to start prioritising because I simply can’t justify those over paying for the necessities. But even by removing all of those, I still don’t save enough to cover the cost of living increases we have endured in the last 12 months so I dread to think what households who are living ‘hand to mouth’ are currently doing to survive.

We joke about people prioritising the latest iPhone over buying food but, for a generation or more, people have had a constant line of credit that fuels the behaviour. By that I mean that I can be in the wierd position that I have no cash to do a weekly £50 shop and yet can walk into a phone shop and by a £1,200 phone for £75 a month with very little consideration by the lender as to whether I can afford it.

In short, the credit bubble is about to burst which will mean more people will need to save up to buy things at a time when they have no money to even pay their bills and people may see their property equity as a means to survive and either remortgage or, cash out by selling and moving back to rented in the hope the market does crash and rejoin when prices have dropped but that’s a massive risk in its own right...

 





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, March 24, 2022, 03:05:29
Buy to let investors have been squeezed by the government. This, allied to the prospect of many tenants defaulting on their loans, may see a flood of houses dumped on the market.

‘On the other hand, a third of homes are now owned by investors rather than owner-occupiers – and the regulatory and taxation environment for them is becoming increasingly hostile. George Osborne began to discourage buy-to-let investment with a three percent surcharge for properties bought as anything other than a main home. Since then, the government has withdrawn tax advantages and piled on costs for investors. Now, landlords are steadily being forced to upgrade the Energy Performance Rating of their properties before being allowed to let them – which could land investors with bills of tens of thousands of pounds in the worst cases. So, might investors be inclined to get out of property, dumping huge numbers of homes on the market?’


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, March 24, 2022, 04:26:55
Good point you make about the market being flooded with extra properties due to the government squeezing investors. Another factor could be the steady in crease interest rates which will affect Morgate payments across the board.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @MacPhlea on Thursday, March 24, 2022, 05:42:35
Buy to let investors have been squeezed by the government. This, allied to the prospect of many tenants defaulting on their loans, may see a flood of houses dumped on the market.

‘On the other hand, a third of homes are now owned by investors rather than owner-occupiers – and the regulatory and taxation environment for them is becoming increasingly hostile. George Osborne began to discourage buy-to-let investment with a three percent surcharge for properties bought as anything other than a main home. Since then, the government has withdrawn tax advantages and piled on costs for investors. Now, landlords are steadily being forced to upgrade the Energy Performance Rating of their properties before being allowed to let them – which could land investors with bills of tens of thousands of pounds in the worst cases. So, might investors be inclined to get out of property, dumping huge numbers of homes on the market?’

This could be a deciding factor… I had taken my comments in isolation to the current factors - build in a historic trend of reduced benefits then cashing out may be attractive - especially if the portfolio is through a limited company and can attract entrepreneurs relief on the profits by closing the company once the houses are sold.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Thursday, March 24, 2022, 12:09:24
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933

That was a sick burn (as the kids say, I think) at the beginning. You could see it stung too


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @MacPhlea on Thursday, March 24, 2022, 14:01:34
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933

That was a sick burn (as the kids say, I think) at the beginning. You could see it stung too
A direct example of where the UK minimum wage resulted in job losses with a non-uk owned company. PLC’s primary objective is to satisfy the shareholders… employees are just an overhead and law is just an obstacle to that cause


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pantomime dame on Wednesday, April 6, 2022, 13:08:10
Bye bye Sarpong. They kept that quiet,
The same week Channel Four get a warning shot across their bows. I'm sure it's a coincidence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Wednesday, April 6, 2022, 15:40:06
CULTURE WARRRRRRS


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Wednesday, April 6, 2022, 15:41:27
The Channel 4 thing is retarded, especially when you see it's Nadine 'thick as mince' Dorries leading the charge. She's fucking dangerous.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 6, 2022, 16:10:31
The Channel 4 thing is retarded, especially when you see it's Nadine 'thick as mince' Dorries leading the charge. She's fucking dangerous.

That's a bit hard on mince.

All they have left is Culture War, note no one was talking about Covid fines once poor old tiddles was thrown on the table, part of the Orbanisation of the country, you criticise the divine leader you pays the consequences.

Thing is C4 costs the taxpayer nothing, Dorries on the other hand gets a fair old whack from us.  


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, April 6, 2022, 16:57:34
remeber when Dorries paid her own daughters to do work for her, money that came out the public purse..

that was a funny old time

or that time she fucked off to do I'm a celebrity while being an elected MP.

she's  thick hypocritical scum.

I don't think C4 was down to her though. She's just the dumb mouth piece


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Wednesday, April 6, 2022, 18:35:20
Is there anything going on with petrol where you are?

My 2 local stations have either been shut due to no fuel, or had big queues the last couple of days. Today Sainsburys had some again and I filled up with 1/10 of the tank to go. Asked the cashier what was going on and she said, "protestors have blocked the terminals", and that they were keeping it out of the newspapers.

Is there some yellow-jacket style protest going on? I read the Guardian and BBC and some other news sources pretty comprehensively on a daily basis and haven't seen an article on this anywhere.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Wednesday, April 6, 2022, 18:40:20
I don't know if you know the Asda Walmart in Swindon but the petrol station regulary runs out of petrol and diesel on Friday afternoons and stays shut until Saturday morning


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: cheltred69 on Wednesday, April 6, 2022, 19:54:42
Don’t know where you are but Just Stop Oil protesters blockading an oil terminal in Essex, aiming to cut supply to SE England.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Wednesday, April 6, 2022, 20:18:46
Don’t know where you are but Just Stop Oil protesters blockading an oil terminal in Essex, aiming to cut supply to SE England.

Thanks, found a story with your info

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/apr/06/activists-occupy-south-east-englands-busiest-oil-terminal


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Wednesday, April 6, 2022, 20:45:55
Going back to Channel 4- although it doesn’t cost the taxpayer anything (funded by advertising)- I think it is in its best interest to be privatised otherwise it won’t be able to compete in the future with the streaming services now available like Amazon and Netflix.

The BBC is going to have to change its model too. I don’t feel comfortable with pensioners/ the poor being prosecuted for not having a TV licence to an organisation paying Gary Lineker £1.75m a year to present one programme for 1.5 hours once a week. That is not effective use of public funds.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, April 6, 2022, 21:23:50
Don’t know where you are but Just Stop Oil protesters blockading an oil terminal in Essex, aiming to cut supply to SE England.

These people are complete cunts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, April 6, 2022, 22:03:37
stop oil. XR, insulate Britain. all cunts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, April 7, 2022, 05:33:54
Going back to Channel 4- although it doesn’t cost the taxpayer anything (funded by advertising)- I think it is in its best interest to be privatised otherwise it won’t be able to compete in the future with the streaming services now available like Amazon and Netflix.

The BBC is going to have to change its model too. I don’t feel comfortable with pensioners/ the poor being prosecuted for not having a TV licence to an organisation paying Gary Lineker £1.75m a year to present one programme for 1.5 hours once a week. That is not effective use of public funds.

More people subscribe to All 4 than they do to Netflix in this country.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, April 7, 2022, 07:08:55
all 4 is free

all 4+ costs, . never even heard of it other than Google. is it still a thing?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, April 7, 2022, 07:42:26
stop oil. XR, insulate Britain. all cunts.

I guess they all walk and cycle everywhere? Holiday in the UK and never been abroad? At least they may not be impacted by the energy price rises.  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 7, 2022, 08:48:42
Going back to Channel 4- although it doesn’t cost the taxpayer anything (funded by advertising)- I think it is in its best interest to be privatised otherwise it won’t be able to compete in the future with the streaming services now available like Amazon and Netflix.

The BBC is going to have to change its model too. I don’t feel comfortable with pensioners/ the poor being prosecuted for not having a TV licence to an organisation paying Gary Lineker £1.75m a year to present one programme for 1.5 hours once a week. That is not effective use of public funds.

Netflix lost five billion dollars last year, Amazon and Disney Plus are loss leaders for massive conglomerates. TV streaming doesn't make money and it never will.

This is not aimed at you, more a general comment but the people complaining about the BBC because of its licence fee, also wanting to kill C4 without any licence fee, says a lot about what their problem really is. It wasn't the licence fee all along.

The Tories seem to be like the Russian Army? They know they’ve fucked it so they’re just looting and destroying all they can before their potential ousting,, knowing that it will take decades to get the country back to where it was economically and socially. What do you call a country where the government is bringing in extreme powers for the police, massively increasing surveillance of social media, and selling off the key critical broadcaster to private hands of their choice?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Thursday, April 7, 2022, 08:53:14
I don't understand this sale. Why do c4 need to compete with Netflix etc. They have their own niche and doing very well with it given the number of Oscar nominations etc. There would appear to be no desperate need for change so why?
Not everything is better by being bigger. Sometimes it's enough to offer something a little bit different.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: fuzzy on Thursday, April 7, 2022, 10:03:57
Privatisation is good thought right?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: fuzzy on Thursday, April 7, 2022, 10:07:49
On another note- Millibland getting all righteous about the foreign wife of an opposing politician paying her taxes on foreign income to the exchequer where that income is earned? So fucking what?

What she is doing is neither illegal or wrong so fuck off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 7, 2022, 10:24:26
On another note- Millibland getting all righteous about the foreign wife of an opposing politician paying her taxes on foreign income to the exchequer where that income is earned? So fucking what?

What she is doing is neither illegal or wrong so fuck off.

Probably so albeit I’m not sure how politically sustainable it is for a member of the Chancellor’s family to live in the Downing Street flat but to say she doesn’t for tax reasons.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: fuzzy on Thursday, April 7, 2022, 10:49:39
My understanding is that she holds a passport for the country of her birth, pays taxes on money earned abroad at the place where it is earned and pays her taxes to the UK exchequer on anything she earns within the UK.

All this was declared by her husband to the Cabinet Office and to the Treasury when he was appointed as a minister to ensure there was no conflict of interest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 7, 2022, 11:22:42
Tax domicile is meant to be around where your long term base is meant to be.  It was once described to me as 'where you intend to die'.  So the implication here is that the family of the Chancellor of the Exchequer doesn't intend to be in the UK long term.  Just visiting.  It doesn't quite feel right to me that the current occupants of 11 Downing Street think they'll be off to India at some point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 7, 2022, 12:09:02
Tax domicile is meant to be around where your long term base is meant to be.  It was once described to me as 'where you intend to die'.  So the implication here is that the family of the Chancellor of the Exchequer doesn't intend to be in the UK long term.  Just visiting.  It doesn't quite feel right to me that the current occupants of 11 Downing Street think they'll be off to India at some point.

I think there are a fair few takes on it, this from a Accounting Professor seems as good as any. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1511964400978214912.html

I don't think she is doing anything illegal, the difficulty and embarrassment arises when her husband is ramping taxes up.

For me the main question is who is leaking all this to the press and why now, the conclusion being someone who doesn't want Sunak to be in No.10. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, April 7, 2022, 12:10:21
For me the main question is who is leaking all this to the press and why now, the conclusion being someone who doesn't want Sunak to be in No.10. 

His next-door neighbour, perhaps.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 7, 2022, 12:13:56
Or 'Pork Markets for PM!'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, April 7, 2022, 12:34:55
Countries like the USA tax their citizens wherever they live in the world, which I find odd given their history.  I suppose they always retain the right to vote, so that covers the no tax without representation.  ON the other hand, I pay local, States and Federal Tax and can't vote.  They also tax me on gains in the UK, even if the source of that income is the UK, but they do allow me to offset tax paid in the UK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Thursday, April 7, 2022, 12:54:54
Unless she is regarded as a chattel of rishys like going back in time then she shouldn't really come into play. I thought the world had moved on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 7, 2022, 13:24:35
Unless she is regarded as a chattel of rishys like going back in time then she shouldn't really come into play. I thought the world had moved on.

Again I don't disagree with the sentiment, albeit it rather dispels the one rule for all shtick and instead reinforces one rule for the rich and another for the plebs, if it remains a non-justified answer for a benefit claimant to state when the forms asks what their spouse earns to reply 'none of your fucking business'.  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, April 8, 2022, 10:49:10
What about the man himself being declared a permanent US resident?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Friday, April 8, 2022, 11:38:02
Got to feel for him, he's not considered a "significant link to the UK"

Fuck me, I'm sure if a bloke said this to his wife he'd find his bollocks in the fridge in the morning.

As has been said, it further justifies the "One rule for us, but a different one for them"

PS  I did see someone ask the question if you were registering for benefits and asked the question about your spouse's income whether a "Mind your own Business" defence would be acceptable :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, April 8, 2022, 15:47:30
What about the man himself being declared a permanent US resident?

That is... quite the thing. Given up in October last year, by which point he'd been an MP for six years and the second highest ranking member of HM Government for 18 months. Not a great look.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, April 8, 2022, 17:26:47
I'm happy to join a Tory bashing when it is needed, but what does the Perm Residency bit have to do with anything?  It simply grants the holder a right of entry and residence, plus the ballache of owing taxes even if you leave the country and earn elsewhere for a bit but don't go through the necessary hoops.

It most certainly doesn't give you a conflict of interest - A Perm Resident cannot vote in the vast majority of elections bar some local ones, depending on the State.  I see an article mentioning some sort of Pledge, maybe they've got a little mixed up with Naturalisation and becoming a USA Citizen?

If anything, retaining the Perm Residency status after moving back to the UK is a financial burden to the holder as they have to file a tax return in the USA still but get nothing in return.  The only benefit Sunak would have gained is going down the quick queue at immigration when visiting the USA.  He certainly was not beholden to USA Govt policy, nor influenced by it.

I just find that line all a bit odd.  In fact, if his wife was a Perm Resident as stated, it meant she WOULD have likely had to pay tax in the USA.  If anything he could probably pinch the tax thing for the UK (please don't though, rather not pay any more).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Saturday, April 9, 2022, 04:51:26
Should the man who’s job is to manage the finances of this country have permanent right of residency elsewhere?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, April 9, 2022, 07:05:07
I just don’t see how that makes a jot of difference, tbh. How would it affect his job as chancellor?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Saturday, April 9, 2022, 14:49:04
Exactly.  When part of the EU we all had right of residency to lots of Countries.  USA perm residency is less of a right than that was.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, April 11, 2022, 21:56:11
Crispin Blunt, serving MP of Reigate, calling  a 'miscarriage of justice' in Imran Khan's conviction of assaulting a 15 year old boy

https://www.blunt4reigate.com/news/statement-conviction-imran-ahmad-khan-mp (https://www.blunt4reigate.com/news/statement-conviction-imran-ahmad-khan-mp)

"I am utterly appalled and distraught at the dreadful miscarriage of justice that has befallen my friend and colleague Imran Ahmad Khan, MP for Wakefield since December 2019.  His conviction today is nothing short of an international scandal, with dreadful wider implications for millions of LGBT+ muslims around the world.

I sat through some of the trial. The conduct of this case relied on lazy tropes about LGBT+ people that we might have thought we had put behind us decades ago.

As a former Justice Minister I was prepared to testify about the truly extraordinary sequence of events that has resulted in Imran being put through this nightmare start to his Parliamentary career.  

I hope for the return of Imran Ahmad Khan to the public service that has exemplified his life to date. Any other outcome will be a stain on our reputation for justice, and an appalling own goal by Britain as we try to take a lead in reversing the Victorian era prejudice that still disfigures too much of the global statute book."
-------------
even if it is a miscarriage of justice, is this really ok.

and right now there is nothing to say this is a miscarriage of justice


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Tuesday, April 12, 2022, 08:05:51
Crispin Blunt, serving MP of Reigate, calling  a 'miscarriage of justice' in Imran Khan's conviction of assaulting a 15 year old boy

https://www.blunt4reigate.com/news/statement-conviction-imran-ahmad-khan-mp (https://www.blunt4reigate.com/news/statement-conviction-imran-ahmad-khan-mp)

"I am utterly appalled and distraught at the dreadful miscarriage of justice that has befallen my friend and colleague Imran Ahmad Khan, MP for Wakefield since December 2019.  His conviction today is nothing short of an international scandal, with dreadful wider implications for millions of LGBT+ muslims around the world.

I sat through some of the trial. The conduct of this case relied on lazy tropes about LGBT+ people that we might have thought we had put behind us decades ago.

As a former Justice Minister I was prepared to testify about the truly extraordinary sequence of events that has resulted in Imran being put through this nightmare start to his Parliamentary career.  

I hope for the return of Imran Ahmad Khan to the public service that has exemplified his life to date. Any other outcome will be a stain on our reputation for justice, and an appalling own goal by Britain as we try to take a lead in reversing the Victorian era prejudice that still disfigures too much of the global statute book."
-------------
even if it is a miscarriage of justice, is this really ok.

and right now there is nothing to say this is a miscarriage of justice
Now retracted and he's stood down from an all party group on LGBTQ+ rights.
What a total bellend.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 12, 2022, 10:08:01
Now retracted and he's stood down from an all party group on LGBTQ+ rights.
What a total bellend.

He has quite the playbook.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQGgAMEWUAYYNY-?format=jpg&name=small)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, April 12, 2022, 10:36:23
retracted = ordered to do so!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Tuesday, April 12, 2022, 12:36:39
Johnson and Sunak fined for breaching lockdown rules

Positions untenable now surely?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Tuesday, April 12, 2022, 12:42:29
Johnson and Sunak fined for breaching lockdown rules

Positions untenable now surely?
Boris is a bullshitting lying cunt who will get away with it. The Tories will be in full protection mode  now. Don't forget the modus operandi has been lie and deny. I'd also charge these cunts with wasting police time. I'd also want the met investigated. They saw offences and either ignored them or referred it up to be ignored.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 12, 2022, 12:52:46
Boris is a bullshitting lying cunt who will get away with it. The Tories will be in full protection mode  now. Don't forget the modus operandi has been lie and deny. I'd also charge these cunts with wasting police time. I'd also want the met investigated. They saw offences and either ignored them or referred it up to be ignored.

Considering the extent of bullshitting that has gone on from various Tory sources regarding this, when do perverting the course of justice charges rear their head?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, April 12, 2022, 12:55:30
Quote from: tans
Johnson and Sunak fined for breaching lockdown rules

Positions untenable now surely?

holy shit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, April 12, 2022, 12:58:52
holy shit
The papal poo?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, April 12, 2022, 13:00:42
Nothing will happen.  Johnson has broken the link between conduct in office and accountability.  He'll waffle & obfuscate, and then wait for it to blow over.

Clever politics from his team as well...leaking the Sunak stories last week.  The only people able to remove him from office before 2024 are Tory MPs.  And with Sunak off the replacement menu, what they will need to weigh up is how much (or otherwise) they want Liz Truss as PM.  Johnson's calculation will be that they won't.  Another reason that nothing will happen.  Dark times.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies shorts on Tuesday, April 12, 2022, 13:01:54
Considering the extent of bullshitting that has gone on from various Tory sources regarding this, when do perverting the course of justice charges rear their head?
The bad news is it will be the met police looking at charges and Boris had them in his pocket when that useless bint dick was in charge. There has to be a case for perverting the course of justice. Obstruction as a minimum. Lie and deny.
They can't even use misunderstanding the rules and ignorance is no defence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, April 12, 2022, 13:08:05
Nothing will happen.  Johnson has broken the link between conduct in office and accountability.  He'll waffle & obfuscate, and then wait for it to blow over.

Clever politics from his team as well...leaking the Sunak stories last week.  The only people able to remove him from office before 2024 are Tory MPs.  And with Sunak off the replacement menu, what they will need to weigh up is how much (or otherwise) they want Liz Truss as PM.  Johnson's calculation will be that they won't.  Another reason that nothing will happen.  Dark times.

Thing is someone was briefing against Truss before all the Sunak stuff kicked off, so who has the clear cupboard of skeletons and is acceptable to those who know where the dirt lies. Polling suggests that brand Johnson was pretty tarnished even before the events of the last hour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, April 12, 2022, 13:19:44
Fines released whilst parliament isn't sitting is convenient in terms of any chance of them actually going, but will probably mean little else in the media for a few days. I don't know how it will go down really, I can't imagine anyone was really waiting for the police to tell them that the rules were obviously being broken but maybe there were.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, April 12, 2022, 14:13:21
Crispin Blunt, serving MP of Reigate, calling  a 'miscarriage of justice' in Imran Khan's conviction of assaulting a 15 year old boy

https://www.blunt4reigate.com/news/statement-conviction-imran-ahmad-khan-mp (https://www.blunt4reigate.com/news/statement-conviction-imran-ahmad-khan-mp)

"I am utterly appalled and distraught at the dreadful miscarriage of justice that has befallen my friend and colleague Imran Ahmad Khan, MP for Wakefield since December 2019.  His conviction today is nothing short of an international scandal, with dreadful wider implications for millions of LGBT+ muslims around the world.

I sat through some of the trial. The conduct of this case relied on lazy tropes about LGBT+ people that we might have thought we had put behind us decades ago.

As a former Justice Minister I was prepared to testify about the truly extraordinary sequence of events that has resulted in Imran being put through this nightmare start to his Parliamentary career.  

I hope for the return of Imran Ahmad Khan to the public service that has exemplified his life to date. Any other outcome will be a stain on our reputation for justice, and an appalling own goal by Britain as we try to take a lead in reversing the Victorian era prejudice that still disfigures too much of the global statute book."
-------------
even if it is a miscarriage of justice, is this really ok.

and right now there is nothing to say this is a miscarriage of justice
Respected him for coming out, previously.

But as a father to a son (now well into his 20s), I'm not sure that what's been quoted at least is particularly re-assuring.

The Partygate will have been a handy "dead cat" for him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, May 4, 2022, 11:56:59
There are a few other things going on in politics, but there are local elections this week.

Now I'm north of the border, pretty much all party political leaflets come down to pro or anti-independence and therefore pro or anti-SNP, so I wasn't particularly surprised to receive a Tory leaflet (in sort of mauve, and not mentioning the word Conservative anywhere prominent) imploring me to vote against the SNP candidates in my area... except that in Orkney, only the Greens stand as candidates and every other councillor is an independent. I do enjoy the absolute shonkiness of all the home-printed independent candidates leaflets.

It's a slightly strange world the collision of local and national politics. Never really got my head around it, but apparently neither have the politicians. Should be a tough week for our benevolent leader though, so that's something.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 4, 2022, 12:37:52
No idea what's going on round here, its odd, we have had literally nothing from any of the main party candidates (even just pushed through the door), the only person who has ben active seems to be an ex LD Councillor who was not chosen this time and is running as an independent.

As we are voting for a shadow Council anyway no idea what the outcome will be, albeit from a small review of what is being said in local Facebook groups and comments on stories in the local rags I cannot see the Tories doing very well, which seems quite a change in less than 3 years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Friday, May 6, 2022, 09:25:57
Highest death toll in Europe from covid
Endless parties and breaking of covid rules
Cost of living rocketing , nothing being done
Misled parliament and lie after lie


Conservatives hold Swindon

And you wonder why I left


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 6, 2022, 09:58:35
not all the seats were up for grabs this time.

that means they only need to hold 2 seats to retain control.

not saying the result would be different if all seats were available anyway mind


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, May 6, 2022, 10:02:00
Highest death toll in Europe from covid
Endless parties and breaking of covid rules
Cost of living rocketing , nothing being done
Misled parliament and lie after lie


Conservatives hold Swindon

And you wonder why I left

You didn't live in Swindon  :)

Inflation rate in Spain 6.7%, UK 5.4% (2021)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Friday, May 6, 2022, 10:04:40
You didn't live in Swindon  :)

I lived in old town, not that it's any of your business 🙂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Boy About Town on Friday, May 6, 2022, 10:13:28
I lived in old town, not that it's any of your business 🙂

Well you don't no more and I don't wonder why you left.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 6, 2022, 10:23:43
You didn't live in Swindon  :)

Inflation rate in Spain 6.7%, UK 5.4% (2021)

Projected inflation rate end 2022 as per said countries national banks.

Spain 7.5%
UK 10%

Summink is going wrong over here?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 6, 2022, 10:24:43
yes, conservatives lose Haydon Wick


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, May 6, 2022, 10:26:24
Be interested to see how they come to those projected figures


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 6, 2022, 10:33:38
Be interested to see how they come to those projected figures

I am sure if you contact the BAnk of Spain they would be delighted to take you through their working.

OTOH I suspect much as with most of Europe their energy prices have not gone up as much as us, and their government are not deliberately strangling their own economy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, May 6, 2022, 16:26:14
I lived in old town, not that it's any of your business 🙂

But telling us why you left is?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, May 6, 2022, 16:37:13
Projected inflation rate end 2022 as per said countries national banks.

Spain 7.5%
UK 10%

Summink is going wrong over here?

Depends how you measure it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, May 9, 2022, 15:10:23
I see the Labour leadership (Starmer & Rayner) have gone all in on the partygate stuff, both publicly stating they will resign if fined by Durham police over what do, on the face of it, look like pretty weak charges compared to the nonsense going on in Downing St.

That said, it would objectively be hilarious if the only people who ended up resigning over breaches of Covid regulations were Allegra Stratton, who didn't go to the party she resigned over, and Keir Starmer, who I suspect hasn't been to a party since 1997.

Politics can be very silly sometimes. It would be fun if it wasn't serious.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, May 9, 2022, 15:21:42
Saying he'll resign is win/win for Labour. It positions the party as trustworthy as compared to the current shower. It's highly unlikely he'll have to actually resign.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, May 9, 2022, 15:48:20
No winners in this affair, however, what makes it worse for Starmer and Raynor et al is the hysteria, posturing and grandstanding over party gate or whatever you choose to call the shit storm in No.10. It is in a way similar to a thuggish tackle in football that deserves a red card, the player fouled is seen to be a worse offender for retaliating, thus I fear the same kind of ‘punishment’ if you will would befall Starmer. I take no joy in seeing him fall on his sword if indeed he has to and does. I’ve said all along that what went on in No.10 was happening all over the country in all walks of life in all industries and at all levels of society.

Two wrongs as we know do not make a right but people in glass houses should not throw stones.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 9, 2022, 15:56:19
Saying he'll resign is win/win for Labour. It positions the party as trustworthy as compared to the current shower. It's highly unlikely he'll have to actually resign.

Oh indeed, once again rather playing the long game. This is actually quite interesting as its delves through the bollocks the Mail have been perpetuating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq-AnyNJsJ0


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, May 9, 2022, 16:32:48
Being the LEADER of the country you are tasked with doing so by the electorate is different to being a normal citizen. Vastly so. If examples set by the incumbent PM is seen as "fair game" and fine to do/behave like then it is no wonder regular citizens will feel it is ok to act like a cock as well.

Starmer saying he'll resign is fine as he will probably never get voted in to lead the country. It's showing he at least has the bollocks to take responsibility. At the same time it makes Johnson look even more of a cunt for not taking any responsibility until absolutely pushed - even then still not really taking responsibility.

I don't know any half decent business in the world where a CEO, Director, Partner or so on would still be in their position if they did just 1/8th (no pun) of the stuff Johnson has and continues to do. They'd be gone long ago.

Public appetite appears to be accepting of perpetual "9 day wonders" and I have no idea when this continued silliness will end. The level of professionalism in Westminster is a fucking low bar right now. There is probably the very real prospect of The Monster Raving Loony Party winning a seat or Count Binface actually becoming MoL.

This quote will always make me laugh just for the pure irony:

"Boris Johnson 'despises' Keir Starmer and thinks he 'is part of a privileged, metropolitan, narrow-minded elite'."  :hmmm:

The UK isn't just a laughing stock or a Banana Republic - it's a Jester Republic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Monday, May 9, 2022, 19:29:13
To say they will resign if fined is completely disingenuous.

They won’t get a FPN even if they broke any rules, as Durham Police have a policy of not issuing fines/fixed penalty notices retrospectively. They didn’t issue one to Dominic Cummings so don’t see how they can to Starmer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, May 9, 2022, 19:40:01
To say they will resign if fined is completely disingenuous.

They won’t get a FPN even if they broke any rules, as Durham Police have a policy of not issuing fines/fixed penalty notices retrospectively. They didn’t issue one to Dominic Cummings so don’t see how they can to Starmer.

He’s a fucking lawyer, if true he knows that or should.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Monday, May 9, 2022, 19:44:21
He’s a fucking lawyer, if true he knows that or should.

Indeed he does that’s why he said he will resign if he gets one because he knows full well he won’t


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, May 9, 2022, 19:46:41
police policy can change


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, May 9, 2022, 19:59:15
police policy can change

We’ll see.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, May 9, 2022, 20:24:53
hardly seems much point investigating it with no tangible outcome

either he's cleared, or he's fined.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Monday, May 9, 2022, 21:49:35
To say they will resign if fined is completely disingenuous.

They won’t get a FPN even if they broke any rules, as Durham Police have a policy of not issuing fines/fixed penalty notices retrospectively. They didn’t issue one to Dominic Cummings so don’t see how they can to Starmer.

So did the Met. Doesn't seem to have stopped them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 10, 2022, 08:47:18
police policy can change

Indeed, some of us are old enough to remember when Durham plod didn't even reinvestigate historic breaches.

Seems pretty win win for Labour, no FPN can fling mud at why Johnson hasn't resigned, gets a FPN resigns and its basically writing the election posters for the next election, plus you get someone like Cooper continuing to tear Johnson a new one every Wednesday lunchtime.

I'm not sure what is funnier, the right wing media who have spent a week demanding he resign and now clutching their pearls that God forbid he has said he will, or right wing social media suggesting that its wrong to put pressure on the police having been entirely silent whilst the government has done just that for the last week - equally some of us are old enough to remember their calm when government sources and media shrills were pressurising the police when FPN's were imminent from the Met.

Whatever the outcome of all this there are a lot of once respected commentators on the right who have totally trashed their reputations with ever more ludicrous and hypocritical takes, and for what, to protect a lame duck narcissistic prat who is destroying the country and Union and cares not one jot for anyone or anything but himself.

As an outsider not wedded to a rosette it is glorious to watch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Tuesday, May 10, 2022, 10:18:42
To be honest they are all as bad as each other.

Quite how Keir though can claim to be a man of integrity though is laughable. Labour covered this up and lied the same as what Boris did.

Starmer knows that Durham won’t issue an FPN retrospectively that’s why he pulled that stunt yesterday. Dominic Cummings should’ve had one issued as well but didn’t for this reason.

Not forgetting the Brexit vote and him saying he would respect the outcome then campaigning vigorously to get a second s referendum and even going to Brussels during the negotiations to undermine the UK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, May 10, 2022, 11:15:30
soapy tit wank ok then


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, May 17, 2022, 16:16:56
Milliband rips into Doris in the Commons

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QG71rhV9ocI


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, May 17, 2022, 16:22:09
that's good, but a year old


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 17, 2022, 16:36:30
that's good, but a year old

Sad thing is nothing has really changed in that time, or will change for the foreseeable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, May 17, 2022, 16:39:54
yup


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Quagmire on Tuesday, May 17, 2022, 17:16:14
Wonder who it is…..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61487215


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, May 17, 2022, 17:43:24
Wonder who it is…..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61487215

Libel Alert!

But we can safely say it's a Tory.  Again.   


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, May 17, 2022, 17:44:08
Libel Alert!


But we can safely say it's a Tory.  Again.   

🤣🤣


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, May 17, 2022, 17:44:21
"It is understood that the MP is a backbencher aged in his 50s. "

Has Mark Francois been to work today?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Tuesday, May 17, 2022, 21:52:16
Scottish patron saint
Sounds like a Lancashire town



Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, May 17, 2022, 22:23:06
Blonde going back to Romford
Mega mega mega going back to Romford

https://ontrend.news/andrew-rosindell-arrested-on-sexual-assault-tory-mp-wife-tamsin-thomas


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 18, 2022, 08:55:16
Scottish patron saint
Sounds like a Lancashire town



I hate to be all reg, but its a borough or valley, not a town  ;) :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, June 5, 2022, 09:19:28
Mood music from the usually well connected seems to suggest there'll be a vote of no confidence in Johnson this week. He has about 60 days more to go to last longer than May...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Sunday, June 5, 2022, 10:35:42
Do you think Labour could win the next election with a rejoin the EU ticket?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, June 5, 2022, 10:50:33
nope.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Sunday, June 5, 2022, 11:49:05
I think that boat has sailed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Sunday, June 5, 2022, 13:31:48
Do you think Labour could win the next election with a rejoin the EU ticket?

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Sorry, only read the first half of that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Sunday, June 5, 2022, 17:48:56
I think that boat has sailed
.

Agreed. If we had to ask The EU to rejoin it would be 100% on their terms. Euro’s would be currency just for starters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, June 5, 2022, 18:05:29
.

Agreed. If we had to ask The EU to rejoin it would be 100% on their terms. Euro’s would be currency just for starters.

This. They have tried to make us pay on leaving, weaponised the NI peace and sure as eggs are eggs would try to fuck us over to rejoin.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, June 5, 2022, 18:10:42
And wouldn't the French just love that!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, June 5, 2022, 18:57:41
I think we will probably end up joining some sort of semi-in semi-out thing like the EEA, it's been floated a few times in recent weeks by Tory voices (remainer and Brexiteer). It'll be politically painful in the short term but probably feels like an actual end point most if not everyone could make peace with. Would need a prominent Brexiteer voice to back it and make it seem an acceptable compromise though I think.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Sunday, June 5, 2022, 19:19:53
Hmmm... I was told that Brexit means Brexit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Monday, June 6, 2022, 01:17:05
Hmmm... I was told that Brexit means Brexit

You misheard. They said 'breakfast means breakfast' ;)

Although depending on the country someone is in, it can mean very different things.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, June 6, 2022, 06:52:26
Quote from: JBZ
Hmmm... I was told that Brexit means Brexit

Brexit means Brexit
but brand meanz Heinz


expected a confidence vote will be triggered, no doubt he'll win and be safe for a year.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:07:33
No confidence vote tonight.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:13:03
Brexit means Brexit
but brand meanz Heinz


expected a confidence vote will be triggered, no doubt he'll win and be safe for a year.

Holding the vote so quickly definitely helps him.  Gives very little time for the rebels to grow their numbers.

I also note that Johnson was given notice by Graham Brady that this was happening yesterday.  So he's had a head start on everyone else.  Does feel as if the systems is working in his favour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:26:29
yeah. damaging but not fatal


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:35:00
Boris will get his kicking in the GE - along with the rest of them.

If I had a prospective Tory candidate knocking on my door I’d tell him he may well be the best constituency MP in the country but if voting for you means Boris gets in, forget it mate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:37:37
I'm not a seasoned political watcher or anything, but I think Johnson might lose this (or at least get close enough that he has to go anyway).

With May, she had clearly earned the emnity of one particular branch of the party (the ERG/harder Brexiteers) but the rest of the party weren't so firmly against her.

Johnson seems to have smaller scale problems everywhere - losing to Labour in the north, the Lib Dems in the leafy southern seats, one of the least popular cabinet members with actual Conservative members. It's a bit death by a thousand cuts but I could definitely see a majority of Tory MPs thinking they'd be better off with a Michael Howard style boring-but-inoffensive caretaker leader. I don't think that would be Truss/Sunak as both are too ambitious and too big a personality, but I could see Ben Wallace or someone who isn't likely to be as easily plastered all over opposition leaflets as Johnson.

Basically I think Audrey's point above will be mirrored in every constituency. The Tories don't need an inspirational leader right now, but they need one that isn't an absolute sheet anchor on their chances.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:43:11
180 is the target number for the malcontents to win the no confidence vote. Not sure if there are that many willing to put their head over the parapet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:44:16
180 is the target number for the malcontents to win the no confidence vote. Not sure if there are that many willing to put their head over the parapet.

They don't need to put their head above the parapet though right? It's a secret ballot. Half the cabinet could vote against and we'd never know.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:49:22
The system definitely favours Johnson, though.  Vote triggered when 15% of Tory MPs demand it, but 50% needed to move him on.  And because they arrange the vote immediately - which is quite unusual in politics - those wanting him out need to go from 15% to 50% in the blink of an eye.

Practically speaking, could he carry on if, say, 40% of his MPs voted for him to go?  That's another matter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, June 6, 2022, 08:21:38
The system definitely favours Johnson, though.  Vote triggered when 15% of Tory MPs demand it, but 50% needed to move him on.  And because they arrange the vote immediately - which is quite unusual in politics - those wanting him out need to go from 15% to 50% in the blink of an eye.

Practically speaking, could he carry on if, say, 40% of his MPs voted for him to go?  That's another matter.

The bloke on the news last night said a vote, regardless of the result is generally a bad sign for a PM anyway so he's almost certainly going to be gone sooner rather than later. Difficult to say how it will go but as it's an anonymous vote surely that's a bad thing for Boris as surely most of them think he's an imbecile and likely to be a liability for upcoming elections? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 6, 2022, 08:52:07
I think we will probably end up joining some sort of semi-in semi-out thing like the EEA, it's been floated a few times in recent weeks by Tory voices (remainer and Brexiteer). It'll be politically painful in the short term but probably feels like an actual end point most if not everyone could make peace with. Would need a prominent Brexiteer voice to back it and make it seem an acceptable compromise though I think.

I see certain prominent Brexiters have started to float the narrative that leaving the SM was a silly idea in economic terms (if only someone has raised the issue at the time), rather than owning their shit, so I suspect we will be creeping towards BINO over time, I note polling seems to suggest that all over the country its being accepted that it ain't going well.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUKx4IJWIAICH2l?format=jpg&name=medium)

Do you think Labour could win the next election with a rejoin the EU ticket?

Nope would just play into the Brexiteers and their propagandists hands that making it a simple yes/no debate, but a manifesto stating that whilst they respect the result of the referendum they will look to revise the deal to reduce and minimise the economic damage could be a vote winner, remembering that the vote said simply leave the EU, never gave a mandate for the economy fucking that the Tories have negotiated.

Its worth bearing in mind that few of those on the remaining side are as ideologically wedded to the EU as Brexiteers like to portray, they were concerned about the societal and economic damage that they perceived would occur, for Labour to identify this and incorporate trying to rectify the shit show as a manifesto pledge could gain them some leverage, as long as they avoid the trap which will be laid by the inevitable bleating in the right wing press about it. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 6, 2022, 09:00:24
I'm not a seasoned political watcher or anything, but I think Johnson might lose this (or at least get close enough that he has to go anyway).

With May, she had clearly earned the emnity of one particular branch of the party (the ERG/harder Brexiteers) but the rest of the party weren't so firmly against her.

Johnson seems to have smaller scale problems everywhere - losing to Labour in the north, the Lib Dems in the leafy southern seats, one of the least popular cabinet members with actual Conservative members. It's a bit death by a thousand cuts but I could definitely see a majority of Tory MPs thinking they'd be better off with a Michael Howard style boring-but-inoffensive caretaker leader. I don't think that would be Truss/Sunak as both are too ambitious and too big a personality, but I could see Ben Wallace or someone who isn't likely to be as easily plastered all over opposition leaflets as Johnson.

Basically I think Audrey's point above will be mirrored in every constituency. The Tories don't need an inspirational leader right now, but they need one that isn't an absolute sheet anchor on their chances.

I think there are various nuances to all of this and what people will actually want long term.

If he loses then who is going to be new leader, its the ultimate poison chalice taking over with a pretty crap recession potentially looming, a cost of living crisis which could see a large proportion of the electorate having to make pretty simple but big choices between eating and keeping warm coming up, policies over the last 12 years creating looming problems with the NHS/Police etc.

Likewise I would imagine despite what they may say in public opposition parties would rather he stayed for a while as he is making the party ever more toxic and scarred the longer he stays possibly ensuring a long period in the wilderness for the Tory party.

Interesting times ahead for anyone not wedded to a rosette.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, June 6, 2022, 12:10:16
On the local angle, I see Justin Tomlinson has said he'll be backing Johnson in the confidence vote.

Robert Buckland has, thus far, not commented either way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Monday, June 6, 2022, 12:11:21
I'd be surprised if BJ survived this, but then nothing would surprise me with the tories.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 6, 2022, 12:16:32
I'd be surprised if BJ survived this, but then nothing would surprise me with the tories.

I suspect he will survive the vote, but that means not a great deal in the short/medium term as Thatcher, Major and May will confirm.

For the political observer who does not have a dog in the fight its a fantastic soap opera to watch, on that basis I hope he wins.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Boy About Town on Monday, June 6, 2022, 12:17:57
I'd be surprised if BJ survived this, but then nothing would surprise me with the tories.

1/5 with bookmakers to survive


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, June 6, 2022, 12:24:12
I suspect he will survive the vote, but that means not a great deal in the short/medium term as Thatcher, Major and May will confirm.

For the political observer who does not have a dog in the fight its a fantastic soap opera to watch, on that basis I hope he wins.

Surely the "bantz" option is for him to win 52% of the vote to 48%.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, June 6, 2022, 12:33:48
Its not whether he will win. But by how much.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Monday, June 6, 2022, 17:35:13
https://mobile.twitter.com/henrymance/status/1533839815480836098?s=24&t=lFjJiESB753al94CDCbujw


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Anteater on Monday, June 6, 2022, 19:04:19
https://mobile.twitter.com/henrymance/status/1533839815480836098?s=24&t=lFjJiESB753al94CDCbujw
I now almost all the time do not know whether to laugh or cry 😳


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, June 6, 2022, 19:48:06
Johnson is toast.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Monday, June 6, 2022, 19:54:22
41% of his own party has no confidence in him - give us a general election please, we will finish the job


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Monday, June 6, 2022, 19:55:13
So this is just an internal vote from the tories? Surely he'd have no chance of winning a parliament vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Monday, June 6, 2022, 19:56:16
So this is just an internal vote from the tories? Surely he'd have no chance of winning a parliament vote.

That's what the numbers say, yep


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, June 6, 2022, 20:03:38
"Draw a line under it" is the political version of "we go again"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, June 6, 2022, 20:04:11
Johnson is toast.

Wishful thinking on your part it would seem.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, June 6, 2022, 20:05:22
Surely you lefties cannot be surprised at the result?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Monday, June 6, 2022, 20:05:26
Any politician that says "Draw a line under it and move on" in the next 48hrs should be sent to the tower


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Monday, June 6, 2022, 20:07:34
Surely you lefties cannot be surprised at the result?

Don't think anyone expressed surprise. The man is made of Teflon - nothing sticks - and although that majority doesn't look strong, he is clearly a leader without morals or principles and will never do the right thing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, June 6, 2022, 20:08:52
40% of his own MP want him gone. marvellous.

the beginning of the end of this shitshow


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, June 6, 2022, 20:09:04
Don't think anyone expressed surprise. The man is made of Teflon - nothing sticks - and although that majority doesn't look strong, he is clearly a leader without morals or principles and will never do the right thing.

Ah Teflon, bit like a certain Anthony Blair?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, June 6, 2022, 20:09:31
40% of his own MP want him gone. marvellous.

the beginning of the end of this shitshow

Fingers crossed eh 😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Monday, June 6, 2022, 20:10:06
Surely you lefties cannot be surprised at the result?

So if you think BJ is doing a terrible job you are a leftie?  41% of the conservative parties are lefties then :D. I think it's about what I expected, expected him to win but lose face massively - exactly what has happened.  The beginning of the end for BJ, he will struggle to get anything passed. This just puts up in bright lights what we already knew, the Tories are a mess and a divided party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, June 6, 2022, 20:11:10
indeed

the start of the reset of the Tory party away from the lying charlatans that hijacked it.

hope he survives until the next GE in some ways


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Monday, June 6, 2022, 20:12:17
indeed

the start of the reset of the Tory party away from the lying charlatans that hijacked it.

hope he survives until the next GE in some ways

Agreed, mind you the Tories would be very brave to stick him up as the Tory candidate next time around


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, June 6, 2022, 20:13:55
So if you think BJ is doing a terrible job you are a leftie?  41% of the conservative parties are lefties then :D. I think it's about what I expected, expected him to win but lose face massively - exactly what has happened.  The beginning of the end for BJ, he will struggle to get anything passed. This just puts up in bright lights what we already knew, the Tories are a mess and a divided party.

Buys him time to put things right, if he can. Either way, the world still spins and I get up for work tomorrow, I really don’t give a fuck. However, I love the wailing and gnashing of of teeth on this site. Gives me a warm feeling. Still each day brings us all nearer the next GE. Fun times, fun times.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Monday, June 6, 2022, 20:17:11
I think all of the wailing and gnashing of teeth will be on the tory back benches, not on here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Monday, June 6, 2022, 20:19:04
Ah Teflon, bit like a certain Anthony Blair?

What on earth has that got to do with anything?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Monday, June 6, 2022, 20:20:35
Oh I get it. You're trying to stoke an argument with whataboutery. You really miss PaulD don't you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, June 6, 2022, 20:37:42
Oh I get it. You're trying to stoke an argument with whataboutery. You really miss PaulD don't you?

🤣🤣 no, I don’t need to Stoke an argument on this site, the spontaneously combust out of nowhere, or hadn’t you noticed? Who?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, June 6, 2022, 20:57:52
Yes, but what about Lord Palmerston?

In football terms, this feels a bit like Sheridan suggesting he was resigning and then showing up on Monday and saying he'd decided to carry on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: MangoRed on Monday, June 6, 2022, 21:47:53
PPE Contracts for their pals whilst business owners and the rest of the world struggled, Wine time and music whilst the country lost their nearest and dearest and cheese boards and castles whilst loved ones were told to socially distance at funerals.

Rotten party, rotten people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Tuesday, June 7, 2022, 07:28:44
Poor by election results and he's a goner I would imagine


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, June 7, 2022, 08:01:54
This just puts up in bright lights what we already knew, the Tories are a mess and a divided party.

Yep, they've gone all labour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, June 7, 2022, 08:07:47
In all honesty if there was a snap general election I would have no clue who to vote for. More than likely not the 'top 2' parties anyway. Such a shame politicians in general appear so unlikeable these days.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Tuesday, June 7, 2022, 09:01:12
Doesn't Keir have the power to call on a vote of no confidence in parliament? If 40something % of his own party want him out, then surely BJ has no way of surviving?

Not exactly sure how that works. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Tuesday, June 7, 2022, 09:02:10
I don't really care if they are likeable, just competent and (relatively) honest would be an improvement on what we have today.  

The next general election is going to be like the last, people voting for parties that they wouldn't usually vote for, for reasons that are nothing to do with their manifesto.  The last general election was all about whether you wanted Brexit or not, nothing to do with the party manifesto - the next one will all be about making sure that the current chancers in charge no longer are.  In my opinion, their only chance of staying in power in the next GE went last night, when the majority of the of the tory MP's went into self preservation mode.  Quite funny really if we didn't have to live with them for the next 2 years.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, June 7, 2022, 09:38:09
With an 80 seat majority currently there is next to no chance that either the Tories hold onto a majority or Labour swing it enough to have a majority of their own

Next election will end with the chaos of a minority government or a collation, so that will be fun!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Tuesday, June 7, 2022, 10:30:44
It a sorry state of affairs when a PM is disliked by 40% of his party yet gets to keep his job without accepting the dignity of resigning, and there isn't a credible enough opposition to force (let alone win) a general election.

Sigh.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Tuesday, June 7, 2022, 10:34:34
As long as Jacob Rees-Mogg keeps licking his arse he's happy😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Tuesday, June 7, 2022, 10:34:46
It a sorry state of affairs when a PM is disliked by 40% of his party yet gets to keep his job without accepting the dignity of resigning, and there isn't a credible enough opposition to force (let alone win) a general election.

Sigh.



If they lose both upcoming by elections in Yorkshire and Devon, he'll go I think. Any subsequent leader in my opinion won't be good enough to win a general election. But,as you say,is Starmer good enough? Not convinced


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Tuesday, June 7, 2022, 10:36:51
As long as Jacob Rees-Mogg keeps licking his arse he's happy😀

One day,please God,that anachronistic arse wipe will get that permanent smirk well and truly wiped off his self superior face


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Tuesday, June 7, 2022, 10:37:21
One day,please God,that anachronistic arse wipe will get that permanent smirk well and truly wiped off his self superior face

 :clap: :clap:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, June 7, 2022, 11:00:01
I don't really care if they are likeable, just competent and (relatively) honest would be an improvement on what we have today. 


Yeah that's a fair point, but you would hope if they were competent and honest they might also be likeable, but perhaps that's me wanting to have my cake and eat it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Tuesday, June 7, 2022, 19:33:59
With an 80 seat majority currently there is next to no chance that either the Tories hold onto a majority or Labour swing it enough to have a majority of their own

Next election will end with the chaos of a minority government or a collation, so that will be fun!

Every general election ends with a coalition government in the uk. It's just that the coalition's tend to all staff the same colour rosettes on polling day. Our FPTP system doesn't provide stable majority government, it just gives the illusion of it. It drives the two major parties to be "broad church" groupings that from one wing to the other share very little in terms of a political programme and thinking.

It's all very well having an 80 seat majority but if 100 of them won't vote for you key proposals your stymied. At least in a formal coalition of parties it's clear what the deal is and who you have to negotiate with.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, June 7, 2022, 21:45:08
Every general election ends with a coalition government in the uk. It's just that the coalition's tend to all staff the same colour rosettes on polling day. Our FPTP system doesn't provide stable majority government, it just gives the illusion of it. It drives the two major parties to be "broad church" groupings that from one wing to the other share very little in terms of a political programme and thinking.

It's all very well having an 80 seat majority but if 100 of them won't vote for you key proposals your stymied. At least in a formal coalition of parties it's clear what the deal is and who you have to negotiate with.

Yeah you make a valid argument. The Italian model works well. But they seem to change government like they change their underwear.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shaw Rosso on Tuesday, June 7, 2022, 21:54:11
Need my wife on here.

You’ll all be Corbynites in minutes…


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, June 8, 2022, 06:54:42
Need my wife on here.

You’ll all be Corbynites in minutes…

Isn't your mrs that Rachel Swindon on Twitter?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Wednesday, June 8, 2022, 07:37:13
Every general election ends with a coalition government in the uk. It's just that the coalition's tend to all staff the same colour rosettes on polling day. Our FPTP system doesn't provide stable majority government, it just gives the illusion of it. It drives the two major parties to be "broad church" groupings that from one wing to the other share very little in terms of a political programme and thinking.

It's all very well having an 80 seat majority but if 100 of them won't vote for you key proposals your stymied. At least in a formal coalition of parties it's clear what the deal is and who you have to negotiate with.
Good point.

Labour being an uneasy Blairite/Rent-a-Mob mix; Cons once a Libertarian/One Nation mix now reconfigured as a Libertarian/Interventionist Populist mix. IMO.

As for stability, the question today is whether the party leader voted in as PM will be changed post-election for the 3rd time in about 6 years - in contrast to the previous Coalition that lasted a full term.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, June 8, 2022, 08:09:18
Every general election ends with a coalition government in the uk. It's just that the coalition's tend to all staff the same colour rosettes on polling day. Our FPTP system doesn't provide stable majority government, it just gives the illusion of it. It drives the two major parties to be "broad church" groupings that from one wing to the other share very little in terms of a political programme and thinking.

It's all very well having an 80 seat majority but if 100 of them won't vote for you key proposals your stymied. At least in a formal coalition of parties it's clear what the deal is and who you have to negotiate with.

Indeed, quite an interesting discussion of the matter here along with an indication as to why the blue lot may be getting in a pickle at the moment https://twitter.com/redhistorian/status/1533780722304942085



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Shaw Rosso on Wednesday, June 8, 2022, 10:16:49
Isn't your mrs that Rachel Swindon on Twitter?


Apparently so, yes


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 16:56:52
Javid pissed off and resigns

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-62048657 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-62048657)

And Sunak!!

https://news.sky.com/story/sajid-javid-resigns-as-health-secretary-12646456


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 17:13:26
Fascinating that this was the straw that broke the camel's back.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 17:18:38
Fascinating that this was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I'm very unbiased when it comes to British politics. But he HAS to go now. Sunak was not just his Chancellor, but also his protege. This in not a hurdle that can be overcome by Johnson...surely?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 17:26:25
I mean, Javid has now resigned on principle from the Johnson govt twice, which suggests he's survivable. Sunak surely is not. It's rats leaving a sinking ship, but with every intention of being the captain of the next ship.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Boy About Town on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 17:30:38
What a shambles.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Boy About Town on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 17:31:14
Makes our clubs ownership battle look like kids play


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 17:32:24
It's not the deceiving of the electorate, or the hypocrisy of your actions, or taking steps to ensure the poorest are hit hardest by the cost of living crisis and the recession we're in while your chums get out scott free and with a nice wedge on top, but a good old sex scandal that brings down the government.

Classic British politics...

So begins the game of musical chairs for the next leader of the conservatives.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 17:43:58
I mean, Javid has now resigned on principle from the Johnson govt twice, which suggests he's survivable. Sunak surely is not. It's rats leaving a sinking ship, but with every intention of being the captain of the next ship.

Have to disagree with you there about Sunak. He's a very smart chap (in my opinion) and he'll have worked out exactly where this is going before shoving his head above the parapet in the manner that he has. I'll happily chomp humble pie if I'm wrong about this.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 17:47:32
I mean, Javid has now resigned on principle from the Johnson govt twice, which suggests he's survivable. Sunak surely is not. It's rats leaving a sinking ship, but with every intention of being the captain of the next ship.

I do agree with you about Javid though. He could be the one that comes out of this smelling most pungently of roses


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: theakston2k on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 18:04:41
Let’s hope whoever replaces Sunak actually does some tax cuts and undoes the stupid NI increase properly!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 18:12:01
The funniest thing is its looking like Blow Jo is going to be bought down eventually by a sex/sleeze scandal he wasn't directly involved in...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 18:15:43
aaah what's Govey, Govey, Govey  Govey going to do ????


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 18:16:22
he's staying in his job apparently


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 18:20:57
Have to disagree with you there about Sunak. He's a very smart chap (in my opinion) and he'll have worked out exactly where this is going before shoving his head above the parapet in the manner that he has. I'll happily chomp humble pie if I'm wrong about this.

Oh I think you've misunderstood, I meant survivable for Johnson. Sunak one hundred percent thinks this is politically advantageous for him. We'll see if he's right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 18:26:33
Oh I think you've misunderstood, I meant survivable for Johnson. Sunak one hundred percent thinks this is politically advantageous for him. We'll see if he's right.

Ah I see! Yup, got the wrong end of the stick, my bad!

Now I re-read it's very obvious what you meant  ;) I blame San Miguel


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 18:47:44
 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 18:54:45
:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

She’s such a dickhead. No excuse for being that much of a dickhead


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 19:51:13
Apparently Sir Cliff has turned up at No.10 to entertain the MSM with a rendition of Carrie doesn’t live here anymore…


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 06:43:50
Apparently Sir Cliff has turned up at No.10 to entertain the MSM with a rendition of Carrie doesn’t live here anymore…

:D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Boy About Town on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 06:59:39
Kay Burley being her charming as ever self this morning.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 07:32:55
Apparently Sir Cliff has turned up at No.10 to entertain the MSM with a rendition of Carrie doesn’t live here anymore…

At least it wasn't Gazza with some beers and a fishing rod....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 07:35:23
He is Lee Power isn’t he.

Lies for fun, and hangs around when not wanted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 08:00:29
La Cucaracha

Beginning to think even a nuclear winter wouldn't see him gone. The Tory party blew it by voting confidence in him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 13:29:18
It's rather like watching an episode of Road Runner and Coyote, with Johnson repeatedly running into walls, off cliffs, blowing himself up with schemes and so on. It's over, it's just a question of how long he takes to accept it.

Someone pointed out that he needs three more days in office to pass Chamberlain and about 30 to pass May. Exactly the kind of thing he would care about...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 13:48:58
Liam fox withdraws his support.

Come on Gove. Stop getting splinters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 14:15:10
Liam fox withdraws his support.

Come on Gove. Stop getting splinters.

Gove has now withdrawn his support too. Johnson is just wasting time now, the end is nigh.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 14:19:46
Did any of these people resigning/withdrawing their support vote in confidence for him a few weeks back?

This debacle could have been put to bed a lot sooner.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 14:21:42
Did any of these people resigning/withdrawing their support vote in confidence for him a few weeks back?

Of course they did


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 14:25:55
Did any of these people resigning/withdrawing their support vote in confidence for him a few weeks back?

This debacle could have been put to bed a lot sooner.

Death by a thousand cunts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 14:34:28
BoJoNoGo?  :sherlock:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 14:45:33
Buckland tells him to go 😲


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 14:50:28
Who's going to replace him?  :(


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 14:51:13
A 30 year old wank sock could do a better job


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 15:01:29
They know the games’s up regarding the next GE, so some sacrificial toff to lead them into oblivion.

The stench of Boris will last for some time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: brocklesby red on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 15:25:46
You know the games up when your own front bench are laughing at Starmers jokes


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 16:08:37
He is probably furiously stripping the gold wallpaper from the Downing Street walls and stuffing them in his pockets before they throw him out


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 17:02:27
All these wankers who suddenly think they're "honourable" by resigning after openly supporting this shit show of a government until now. Fucking hypocrites the lot of em


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 17:30:34
All these wankers who suddenly think they're "honourable" by resigning after openly supporting this shit show of a government until now. Fucking hypocrites the lot of em

While I agree with you that their hypocrisy reeks, this multitude of sudden conscious discovery and the subsequent resignations is the simplest way to oust him. Long may it continue, contrived or not


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 17:32:50
Who's going to replace him?  :(

My head says Sunak, heart says Javid


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 18:27:35
While I agree with you that their hypocrisy reeks, this multitude of sudden conscious discovery and the subsequent resignations is the simplest way to oust him. Long may it continue, contrived or not
Oh, don't get me wrong I want to see that lying,corrupt befuddled buffoon gone but if he refuses to resign what can they do? And if he does go,there's not a single honourable Tory to replace him. All these telling him to resign had a chance to get rid of him a few weeks ago.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 18:46:03
They can force a vote of no confidence, but he can ignore the result.

Or rather dissolve parliament and call a snap GE. But surely not


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 18:51:58
Sky reporting he has said he is absolutely defiantly not resigning


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 19:00:37
Good. I hope he clings on and destroys the party for decades to come.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bedford Red on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 19:08:21
Good. I hope he clings on and destroys the party for decades to come.

Exactly my thoughts too


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 19:23:53
Exactly my thoughts too

Looks like you may get your wish. He's heading for the bunker.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 20:01:29
Michael Gove sacked


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 20:08:26
Michael Gove sacked

In fairness, hanging on just long enough to sack Gove is a very reasonable thing to do in the circumstances.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 20:10:12
They cant resign if you sack them first.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 05:55:06
This is all like a really shit episode of The Thick of It.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 07:29:13
Zahawi calls for him to go publicly. Johnson made him Chancellor 36 hours ago...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 07:30:34
Zahawi. The chancellor who got caught fiddling his expenses. Inspired choice


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 07:38:33
Mr Bean would do a better job than these clowns😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 07:41:30
I suspect that Boris will depart by midday today.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 07:43:31
Donelan has now resigned  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 07:45:55
Donelan has now resigned  :D

You have to respect choosing to make yourself a pub quiz question - shortest cabinet stint in history.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 07:46:30
I just took a call from Boris Johnson.  Didn't realise he had my number, but anyway...he's offered me a job!

Anyone else had this?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 07:48:18
This is all like a really shit episode of The Thick of It.

Half expecting him to walk out of Downing Street, all smiles next to Armando Iannucci.  'Hey...we gotcha!'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 07:51:07
The source of all knowledge (BBC website) saying he is resigning


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 07:52:56
The source of all knowledge (BBC website) saying he is resigning

Link?  Can't see it there myself.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 07:53:40
Link?  Can't see it there myself.

Live feed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 07:54:12
Trying to stay on until they find a replacement - that seems unlikely after the last few days...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 08:05:37
Trying to stay on until they find a replacement - that seems unlikely after the last few days...

One would assume that he will be desperate to get a term that lasts longer than May's which he doesn't have at the moment. Interestingly he is presently precisely on par with Neville Chamberlain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: wheretherealredsare on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 08:13:39
I suspect that Boris will depart by midday today.
If not, he will turn into a pumpkin?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 08:19:23
Trying to stay on until they find a replacement - that seems unlikely after the last few days...

Gove?  :rain:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 08:22:35
Boris off (in Autumn)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 08:29:08
Thing is after the last few weeks how the hell is he going to populate a cabinet (which is a basic requisite for being PM) without a lot of people looking extremely hypocritical, there has basically been no government for a fair few weeks already and the stagnation will just continue until he is out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 08:37:07
Michael Fabricant would be a good successor.
He's got the hair and the values to ensure a seamless transition.
A lot of the electorate might not even notice.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 08:38:52
Michael Fabricant would be a good successor.
He's got the hair and the values to ensure a seamless transition.
A lot of the electorate might not even notice.

I didn't realise he was an actual bona fide politician until recently. I thought he was just some odd troll on twitter!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 10:46:02
Bobby Buckland appears to be the new Welsh Secretary, as Johnson appears to be appointing ministers for no particular reason.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 10:46:33
Just filling the gaps


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 11:07:37
If not, he will turn into a pumpkin?

Turn into?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 11:13:58
Mop head is talking.

Time for a new conservative leader, and a new PM. Timetable for election to be released next week.

Wobbling on about the "mandate", brexit, vaccine and Ukraine again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 11:18:45
Still not enough of a crisis for Justin Tomlinson to be recalled from the backbenches.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 11:25:59
buckland is Welsh Secretary though!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 13:44:16
Mop head is talking.

Time for a new conservative leader, and a new PM. Timetable for election to be released next week.

Wobbling on about the "mandate", brexit, vaccine and Ukraine again.

Did he even actually say explicitly that he resigned, if he hasn't been to see Brenda I don't think he actually has. It all seems very general and generic and I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to claim down the line that he never actually resigned unless it has been put in writing - all very Trumpy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 15:56:36
One would assume that he will be desperate to get a term that lasts longer than May's which he doesn't have at the moment. Interestingly he is presently precisely on par with Neville Chamberlain.

He's more desperate to hang on long enough for his wedding celebration at chequers at the end of July so Carrie doesn't have a hissy fit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: fuzzy on Thursday, July 7, 2022, 16:55:23
He's more desperate to hang on long enough for his wedding celebration at chequers at the end of July so Carrie doesn't have a hissy fit.

Then she shouldn't have made him make such fucking ridiculous decisions then.

No one to blame but her trouser wearing self.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, July 8, 2022, 05:07:33
The definitive Boris epitaph

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lKrLBPmRsrM


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, July 8, 2022, 07:07:14
Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey
The definitive Boris epitaph

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lKrLBPmRsrM (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lKrLBPmRsrM)

Pye nails it again


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Friday, July 8, 2022, 09:39:50
The definitive Boris epitaph

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lKrLBPmRsrM

He is brilliant.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Friday, July 8, 2022, 15:53:41
I'm all for his messages but there is something about the format that I cannot stand. I think I watched his first few, years ago, but haven't been able to make it all the way through one since.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, July 9, 2022, 07:38:28
There's nothing quite like a leadership contest to remind you how highly MPs rate themselves. I'm a hopeless political nerd and there are several people running who I have literally never heard of. Bill Wiggin? Rehman Chrishti? Lordie me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, July 9, 2022, 07:45:38
The new Education Minister endearing herself to the electorate. Sheer contempt



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, July 9, 2022, 08:01:57
Give it to Theresa she'll sort the slime balls out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Saturday, July 9, 2022, 09:51:43
The new Education Minister endearing herself to the electorate. Sheer contempt

As much as I dislike Tories and, in particular, their choices of Education Minister (this ones experience amounts to, "being a music tutor in a secondary school", which is still shit but way more than any of the other incumbents had), I'd like to know more context about this picture.

I don't mind if an MP sticks their middle finger up if, say, they're being booed by particular groups of people and having things thrown at them (is there a recent splat on the wall behind her, perhaps from an egg?).

She also worked in Greggs at 16 and opposes fox hunting, so does not seem to be an atypical Tory.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Saturday, July 9, 2022, 11:56:49
The state of politics in this country has sunk to new depths, the current government not fit for purpose and an opposition that is even weaker and completely unelectable. What a shambles.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Moss on Saturday, July 9, 2022, 12:02:36
The state of politics in this country has sunk to new depths, the current government not fit for purpose and an opposition that is even weaker and completely unelectable. What a shambles.

How are the Labour Party worse than the current government - what is this theory based on other than articles in the Daily Mail?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Saturday, July 9, 2022, 12:07:08
How are the Labour Party worse than the current government - what is this theory based on other than articles in the Daily Mail?

Very split. Can't stand the hard left. Have you heard of Diane Abbott?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Moss on Saturday, July 9, 2022, 15:12:56
Very split. Can't stand the hard left. Have you heard of Diane Abbott?

You mean the first Black female MP who receives more hate mail and death threats than any other public figure?

Can you name some of her extreme left wing policies please?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Saturday, July 9, 2022, 16:04:15
You mean the first Black female MP who receives more hate mail and death threats than any other public figure?

Can you name some of her extreme left wing policies please?

No, but the right wing media have told us that she’s a useless lefty, so therefore it must be true.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, July 9, 2022, 16:30:39
to be fair she comes across as pretty useless in many of the interviews I've seen her in

Not in the same league of uselessness as Nadine Dorries mind


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Moss on Saturday, July 9, 2022, 16:48:00
Fucking depressing that despite the worst Prime Minister in history who holds the working and middle classes in absolute contempt, the general public are such thick fucking cunts they'll still vote for the fucking Tory's.

You should have to take a political awareness exam before you are allowed to vote. Labour unelectable. Jesus wept. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, July 9, 2022, 17:27:41
Fucking depressing that despite the worst Prime Minister in history who holds the working and middle classes in absolute contempt, the general public are such thick fucking cunts they'll still vote for the fucking Tory's.

You should have to take a political awareness exam before you are allowed to vote. Labour unelectable. Jesus wept.  


I don't really hold with this sort of thing - I think it's an attitude that is strong online because partisanship is such a powerful force in US politics that there's barely any swing at all.

Look at the recent UK polls. Tories polling in the high 20s, Labour early 40s and general left of centre parties (including the Lib Dems) well into the 60s. The UK electorate swings and swings hard when one side is deemed to be fucking things up. Make no mistake, that's why the Tories have gone full regicide, nothing to do with the sanctity of truth.  

Of course there are safe sides and 'red or blue come what may' voters. But there's a really large chunk that will move - probably because of the presence of relatively viable protest votes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Monday, July 11, 2022, 16:38:54
to be fair she comes across as pretty useless in many of the interviews I've seen her in

Not in the same league of uselessness as Nadine Dorries mind

I'd add Liz Truss too, particularly because she has the audacity to run for leader and is clearly not good at anything.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 11, 2022, 17:33:45
she can order more dogs to scare drones away


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Monday, July 11, 2022, 22:30:54
We can be sure that there'll be no shortage of pork markets should she rise to power

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRhlRM6rYck


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, July 12, 2022, 10:03:04
So, Raab has backed Sunak, JRM and Dorries Truss. Lots of candidates in the race, but increasingly looking like:

Sunak as the choice of much of the party establishment
Truss as the continuity Johnson candidate
Mordaunt as the choice of a fair chunk of the backbenches
Tugendhat as the one nation, centrist choice who won't win (Rory Stewart Mk. 2)

Then a wide variety of assorted loons on the right of the party fighting over the ERG vote (Braverman/Badenoch/Patel)

And then Hunt, Shapps, Javid, Zahawi and a few others who have a reasonable profile but not really that much support.

For anyone who isn't a Tory, it's a bit of a "pick your poison" but there are definitely better and worse choices. At the moment, they all seem to be competing to announce the biggest tax cut, apart from Sunak who is telling them there's no money to do that with. He's probably right, but I can't imagine it'll win him many friends.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, July 12, 2022, 10:08:20
Like picking your favourite dog poo


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, July 12, 2022, 10:12:05
Like picking your favourite dog poo

Well, perhaps, but one or two of those dogs are Alsatians that have spent the last week eating roadkill.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, July 12, 2022, 10:14:27
Then a wide variety of assorted loons on the right of the party fighting over the ERG vote (Braverman/Badenoch/Patel)
I thought Mordaunt was ERG too.


Like picking your favourite dog poo

There's a fair few that will favour 1970s white dog poo.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, July 12, 2022, 10:16:32
I thought Mordaunt was ERG too.

She is, but her support so far isn't really. Badenoch and Braverman have only Brexiteers backing them, Mordaunt a bit more balanced. This is quite interesting for nerds like me who care about who supports who:

https://sotn.newstatesman.com/2022/07/conservative-leadership-election-candidates-who-backing/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, July 12, 2022, 10:19:14
Ah, I see.

Anybody know the point of Labour tabling the "no confidence" vote? It won't succeed, since it could trigger a GE.

I suppose it gives another stick, "they asked him to leave, but won't vote to remove him" - but its a bit weak under the current circumstances.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, July 12, 2022, 12:20:00
Ah, I see.

Anybody know the point of Labour tabling the "no confidence" vote? It won't succeed, since it could trigger a GE.

I suppose it gives another stick, "they asked him to leave, but won't vote to remove him" - but its a bit weak under the current circumstances.

It's a stunt to lump all the current Tory incumbents in with Johnson. They are desperately trying to distance themselves from him to show "honour" and "integrity." A failed VoNC would show they only care about themselves and their job prospects and offers a counter to the narrative they are trying to push. Hopefully equals long term damage to the Tory brand.

Either that, or they actually act with integrity and we get a general election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, July 12, 2022, 13:03:39
Either that, or they actually act with integrity and we get a general election.

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, July 12, 2022, 13:14:15
On a slight point of nerdery, losing a vote of confidence does not automatically call an election. If it was clear that, say, deputy PM Dominic Raab *could* win a confidence vote to lead a caretaker govt. then the Queen can invite him to form a government instead of dissolving parliament entirely. As with many things in our system, it's not exactly certain how that all works, but there's certainly a path where the Conservative MPs could remove Johnson without accidentally calling an election. Which makes it even less justifiable that they won't do it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, July 12, 2022, 13:22:58
So, Raab has backed Sunak

Don & Non Dom.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: normy on Tuesday, July 12, 2022, 13:28:13
I'm waiting to see if any candidate speaks out in favour of securing our energy supply security, by pushing for shale gas development, North Sea oil investment, the new coal mine for our steel industry, and my belief that the zero net carbon date should be sensibly delayed as we have to live now and the   green scheme is not working in practice for many reasons.  Our 1% of global CO2 emissions has very little effect when for example China has so many coal fired stations.  
 
I don't expect anything from the Tories on this subject.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, July 12, 2022, 13:33:33
I'm waiting to see if any candidate speaks out in favour of securing our energy supply security, by pushing for shale gas development, North Sea oil investment, the new coal mine for our steel industry, and my belief that the zero net carbon date should be sensibly delayed as we have to live now and the   green scheme is not working in practice for many reasons.  Our 1% of global CO2 emissions has very little effect when for example China has so many coal fired stations. 
 
I don't expect anything from the Tories on this subject.

Several of the more right wing candidates have openly called for net zero to be binned or at least ignored for a bit, notably Badenoch and Braverman.

Personally I think that's dangerously unhinged policy, but if it's what you want in a candidate, it's on offer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, July 12, 2022, 16:54:55
Javid bites the dust

Government blocks Labour vote of no confidence 🐔


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 13, 2022, 11:20:57
Well there you go.... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-no-confidence-vote-conservatives-b2122159.html 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Wednesday, July 13, 2022, 17:42:12
It's got to be between Sunak and Mordaunt and I think Mordaunt might pip it. Sunak has been too brand heavy, putting his signatures on PR photos with no mention of the Conservatives. That and some other things haven't gone down well. Like Nemo said, Mordaunt has a bit of support but it might not quite be enough.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Wednesday, July 13, 2022, 17:47:57
Well there you go.... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-no-confidence-vote-conservatives-b2122159.html  
To be honest,I've never really understood the accusation of "playing politics". Like accusing a footballer of "playing football"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Wednesday, July 13, 2022, 18:39:20
To be honest,I've never really understood the accusation of "playing politics". Like accusing a footballer of "playing football"

The only appropriate response to that accusation is "well yes that's sort of all our jobs".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, July 14, 2022, 13:48:26
Braverman out of the running, Tugendhat actively losing support from the first round. Final two will almost certainly be two of Sunak, Mordaunt and Truss.

There are debates on over the weekend ahead of the next round of voting, which could change things I suppose if someone has an absolute shocker (money on Truss, who is not a great public speaker).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Thursday, July 14, 2022, 18:48:31
Braverman out of the running, Tugendhat actively losing support from the first round. Final two will almost certainly be two of Sunak, Mordaunt and Truss.

There are debates on over the weekend ahead of the next round of voting, which could change things I suppose if someone has an absolute shocker (money on Truss, who is not a great public speaker).

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Badenoch is likely to Hoover up most of the RW lunatic fringe votes from Braverman, which will put her ahead of Truss.

Where the Tugendhat votes go, when he's axed tomorrow will be interesting. I'm guessing Sunak is likely to be the least objectionable to those mps. I can't see Truss or Badenoch picking up any from him, but some might break Mordaunts way.

So next 2 rounds

S- 110ish then 135ish
M - 85ish then 90ish
B - 75ish then unchanged
LT - 64 then unchanged
TH - 30ish then out

The question after that is where Trusses votes go. Will enough go to Badenoch for her to overhaul PM4PM and give the membership the choice between Slick Rick and a genuine right wing loon who doesn't seem to have cottoned on to the fact that culture war appeals to the most reactionary elements of the electorate are unlikely to play quite so well coming from a black woman.

Let's hope so. Penny can almost play a human being for sustained periods of time and might be able to actually appeal to the public a bit.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, July 15, 2022, 07:04:07
Mordant has a decent rack, important to factor that in


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, July 15, 2022, 08:06:19
  :sherlock:

https://youtu.be/2Ens-MNzQOE


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 15, 2022, 08:07:42
Mordant has a decent rack, important to factor that in

She does, and in January I put a bet on her becoming Con leader before the end of 2022, so I am PM4PM.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, July 15, 2022, 08:14:00
Where the Tugendhat votes go, when he's axed tomorrow will be interesting.

No voting today, next round on Monday, so two debates before the next round - which is presumably why TT is still in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, July 20, 2022, 15:00:57
Truss v Sunak it is then, announcement 5th September. I can't say that the idea of either as PM fills me with joy, although Sunak feels less likely to accidentally nuke Edinburgh.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, July 20, 2022, 15:04:06
Fucking hell, both Johnson enablers.

The economy went to shit under Sunak's watch. Covid indeed was a fair response. The cost of liviing crisis not so.

And Truss. a Pork Markets, Dogs scare away drones Thatcher wannabe.

Yippee.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Wednesday, July 20, 2022, 15:54:12
Let's face it, with this lot it was always going to be the least worst candidate, pretty much the whole party has been proved to be corrupt. 

Whoever gets it is going to be the one that goes down in history as losing the next GE..  they would have to do somthing pretty radical to avoid that


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Wednesday, July 20, 2022, 16:39:20
I'm astonished Truss has made it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, July 20, 2022, 17:35:32
I'm astonished Truss has made it.

It's clear that she's popular amongst ERG MPs and Brexit-supporting members and will start favourite amongst the membership.

It's also clear that she goes down like a cup of cold sick amongst the general public.

She seems like a combination of May and Johnson - driven by broad statements which aren't especially implementable like Johnson, but with all the human warmth and charisma of May. She strikes me as the choice of Conservatives who don't think there's really anything wrong with their party and direction apart from the fact that Johnson got on the wrong side of the press over partygate. That is... a view.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, July 20, 2022, 18:33:56
plus, she's not brown.

that'll be an advantage for the gaining traditional Tory support


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Wednesday, July 20, 2022, 18:36:46
I'm astonished Truss has made it.

She’s absolutely useless and Sunak will be delighted to have been drawn against her


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Wednesday, July 20, 2022, 21:28:15
She’s absolutely useless and Sunak will be delighted to have been drawn against her

Johnson was useless and they picked him & the country voted him in, never underestimate how stupid the English public can be


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Boy About Town on Wednesday, July 20, 2022, 21:42:38
Johnson was useless and they picked him & the country voted him in, never underestimate how stupid the English public can be

It’s not the public deciding this next leader.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, July 20, 2022, 21:43:23
Johnson was useless and they picked him & the country voted him in, never underestimate how stupid the English public can be

Yes you’re right, just think how stupid they’d have been voting in labour led by none other than oh Jeremy Corbyn, oh Jeremy Corbyn. Captain hindsight might have breathed a huge sigh of relief when Boris resigned but he needs to be careful what he wishes for. Liz Truss is no mug. Rishi like a lot of politicians comes with baggage not least because he and his wife are minted, that alone will have the savage far left gnashing at marrow bones. Still along way to go until the next GE and a lot can happen. Then the stupid English public get another chance to be stupid. Don’t forget mate, unless I’m mistaken, aren’t you a member of the English public too?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 07:39:56
Quote from: Boy About Town
It’s not the public deciding this next leader.

yeah it's a far worse subset than that


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 07:46:20
In Truss we trust.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 08:05:31
I'm not sure I Truss any of them😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 08:08:33
Don't want Sunak getting it, the whole wife stories etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 08:10:19
Me neither, he doesn't understand the meaning of hardship.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 08:23:09
From Atilla the Stockbroker...

A choice between Sunak and Truss.
Being hit by a car or a bus.
A cocktail of sick
Mixed with fromage of dick -
Or a nice pint of festering pus.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 08:30:57
It’s not the public deciding this next leader.

Technically it kind of is. 150,000 Tory members will vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 08:48:20
Technically it kind of is. 150,000 Tory members will vote.

Who are you voting for?  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 08:49:12
When is the vote in a few weeks time?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 09:08:03
Who are you voting for?  :)

 :suicide:

I'm not eligible as you are very much well aware.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 09:08:57
:suicide:

I'm not eligible as you are very much well aware.

I've voted in two party political leadership contests and not picked a winner yet, so perhaps I should join the Tories and vote Truss...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 09:09:57
I've voted in two party political leadership contests and not picked a winner yet, so perhaps I should join the Tories and vote Truss...

I wouldn't be against that plan. :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 09:15:57
I've voted in two party political leadership contests and not picked a winner yet, so perhaps I should join the Tories and vote Truss...

I'm feeling quite sanguine about the whole thing TBH, I cannot see either not being a total shit show for the country and as I don't have a vote in this summers dog fight just going to sit back and watch them all fight it out with every word likely further digging a hole (as Starmers questions at PMQ's yesterday just showed), I assume they will provide ammunition for many more PMQ's over the summer, from their own mouths.

Amused viewing for those of us not wedded to a rosette of any colour and re-engage in September when the soap opera concludes, country is pretty fucked whatever happens.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 09:22:11
LBC went to....Essex, this am for a vox pop on Truss v Sunak

"Yeah, that Truss is ok but she needs a stylist"

"I'll vote for him, that Indian fella"  

 ::)







Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Moss on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 09:28:01
I suspect the Tories want to lose the next election. Let Labour pick up the complete shit show of a fucked economy, a failing public sector, the carnage of Brexit. Then they can blame Labour for fucking it all up and the the pond life that make up the majority of the Great British public will vote them in for another three terms.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 10:20:14
Rinse and repeat


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 12:18:21
Yes you’re right, just think how stupid they’d have been voting in labour led by none other than oh Jeremy Corbyn, oh Jeremy Corbyn. Captain hindsight might have breathed a huge sigh of relief when Boris resigned but he needs to be careful what he wishes for. Liz Truss is no mug. Rishi like a lot of politicians comes with baggage not least because he and his wife are minted, that alone will have the savage far left gnashing at marrow bones. Still along way to go until the next GE and a lot can happen. Then the stupid English public get another chance to be stupid. Don’t forget mate, unless I’m mistaken, aren’t you a member of the English public too?

Lets be clear, the vast majority of the electorate do NOT vote for the party in power.  The FPTP ensures minority parties manage to get huge majorities.  Also worth noting that the Right side of politics hasn't garnered 50% of the vote since 1935 I believe (and that's only 50% of the 60-70% who vote).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 12:23:55
Strange how FPTP is fine for us plebs but not for the Tory leadership election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 12:24:36
Lets be clear, the vast majority of the electorate do NOT vote for the party in power.  The FPTP ensures minority parties manage to get huge majorities.  Also worth noting that the Right side of politics hasn't garnered 50% of the vote since 1935 I believe (and that's only 50% of the 60-70% who vote).

UKIP + Tories got 51% in 2015. UKIP got nearly 13% of the total vote and won no seats in one of the most egregious examples of FPTP being anti-democratic we've ever seen. Voting reform *shouldn't* just be a left wing talking point.

Of course, to use a well worn phrase, UKIP "won the argument" as Cameron then called the referendum to defang them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 12:28:25
I count UKIP has 50% extreme right and 50% extreme left.  Very right wing on Nationalism, very left wing on economic policy.  One of the reasons Boris got the job and into power - the Conservative Party peeled off that previously TUC loving voter who likes a flag (or maybe some who wouldn't have voted at all in the past because they were not traditional left or right voters).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 12:45:26
Agree with a few of these recent posts. FPTP is fucked and both the Tories and Labour lost support to UKIP over the years and part of the tories success was claiming it back.

A lot of Labour and their supporters much to their own detriment don't even want to acknowledge them losing voters to UKIP and look internally at why that might be. They just brush it off and put it down to a small amount of racists. The actual very real policies of UKIP that are palatable to those that lean left wouldn't ever be admitted to.

Just like Brexit in general. Most remain supporting left wingers buried their heads in the sand when it came to anti Europe sentiment from their own party and again did what they always do, made it a right wing vs left wing issue. Would just rather paint a picture of Brexit being a racist extreme right endeavour that couldn't win.

Again, they lost.

Yet they never learn and constantly brush anything they don't like off with a sanctimonious snub coupled with a racism card and its lost them support for decades with failure after failure.

If they can't win the next GE though, Labour should just fold. How bad does it have to get before they can win?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 14:01:09
If they can't win the next GE though, Labour should just fold. How bad does it have to get before they can win?

I find it quite amusing that many on the left in Labour want Starmer out because he's too close to the centre.

The thing they seem to have forgotten, that a truly left/labour leader hasn't won an election since 1974.
Since then the country has mainly become more Nationalistic/Right wing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 15:16:27
Liz Truss is no mug.

Any examples of this? A good speech, a good bit of debate in the chamber? Genuinely keen to know if any exist.

From a quick look at Wikipedia she is the daughter of a maths professor and a CND campaigner, and was born and educated in  Oxford - so must have something going on up there after all. Was president of the Lib Dem group when at Oxford. She worked for Shell as a graduate and then made it to 'economic director' of Cable & Wireless.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 15:19:52
I find it quite amusing that many on the left in Labour want Starmer out because he's too close to the centre.

The thing they seem to have forgotten, that a truly left/labour leader hasn't won an election since 1974.
Since then the country has mainly become more Nationalistic/Right wing.

Which in and of itself is a huge, huge shame


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 15:21:07
Why would anyone want a far left, or far anything party in? Crazy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 15:34:32
Why would anyone want a far left, or far anything party in? Crazy.

Agreed. Extremism is bad, either which way.

Having said that, Starmer is the ultimate fence sitting tool, but given the shambolic state of the current government it probably hasn't been a bad play.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 15:55:12
Any examples of this? A good speech, a good bit of debate in the chamber? Genuinely keen to know if any exist.

From a quick look at Wikipedia she is the daughter of a maths professor and a CND campaigner, and was born and educated in  Oxford - so must have something going on up there after all. Was president of the Lib Dem group when at Oxford. She worked for Shell as a graduate and then made it to 'economic director' of Cable & Wireless.

TBF I was born in Oxford and I don't think that has contributed much rto my having anything up there. I am broadly a contemporary of Truss (aren't politicians getting young - Sunak is but a child) thankfully she moved away from her area of birth at an early stage otherwise I would likely have been knocking about the same haunts as her in my late teens which could have had unfortunate consequences.

Her highlights reel https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1549396990051639296

I see she is lauding her economic plans today as they are supported by the economist Patrick Minford, who in the past suggested that Brexit would leave the country billions of pounds better off and that introducing the minimum wage would plunge millions into unemployment.

Anyway looking more and more like a Truss shoe in.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYM4R0hXgAAmkVZ?format=jpg&name=small)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 16:15:05
Dig up Harold Wilson I say, even his corpse would do a better job than anyone currently an MP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 18:18:42
TBF I was born in Oxford and I don't think that has contributed much rto my having anything up there.

Do you have a degree in PPE from Oxford though?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 19:11:13
Why would anyone want a far left, or far anything party in? Crazy.

You've had an extremely right wing party in power for the last 12 years for duck sake. It's only the fact that most of the mainstream media is controlled by a handful of billionaire right wing shitbags that allows that to go unmentioned.

If you letting the daily mail define what's extreme then you're in tucking trouble.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 19:28:40
You've had an extremely right wing party in power for the last 12 years for duck sake. It's only the fact that most of the mainstream media is controlled by a handful of billionaire right wing shitbags that allows that to go unmentioned.

If you letting the daily mail define what's extreme then you're in tucking trouble.

Extremely right wing? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Miles Mayhem on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 20:49:50
It’s been centre right for years and years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, July 21, 2022, 21:04:18
The Tories aren't extreme Right Wing, not by a long chalk.  They have started to dip into some of the more extreme areas though.  Hopefully they don't follow the path of the Republican's here who seem to have completely fallen into the Populist trap.

In the same vein, the Labour Party is not extreme Left Wing, even when Corbyn was in charge.  There was a risk in the 80's they might go that way.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, July 22, 2022, 00:36:35
Corbyn, Galloway, Foot, Benn etc.....no thanks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, July 22, 2022, 07:28:45
It’s been centre right for years and years.

Broadly it has, but I do think it's actually been quite different in the detail over the last 12 years or so.

Cameron was socially liberal (equal marriage etc.) but economically as dry right wing as they come - heavy austerity which is really starting to bite now in public services.

Johnson is significantly more populist authoritarian socially (see Rwanda, Police & Crime Bill) but much more open to public spending than Cameron - this government more or less nationalised employment at one point (of course, in the context of a national crisis, they might behave very differently in more normal times).

Both can be fairly described as centre-right, but there are policies there in the detail that are much further right or even heading towards left wing. May's government was so hamstrung by Brexit that it's essentially impossible to place where she might have been.

Ironically, probably the most authoritarian right wing policy proposed in my lifetime would be Blair proposing 90 day detention without charge - and that from the government that also did proper left wing policies like the minimum wage, SureStart, major investments in health and education and so on.

From what I've seen in the contest so far, Sunak is a return to Cameroonian economics, and Truss a much more continuity Johnson approach.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, July 22, 2022, 07:50:02

From what I've seen in the contest so far, Sunak is a return to Cameroonian economics, and Truss a much more continuity Johnson approach.

So if Sunak becomes PM do you expect Roger Milla style dancing as he announces policy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Miles Mayhem on Friday, July 22, 2022, 07:51:43
If that is the case he has my vote! 😂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, July 22, 2022, 09:16:10
Broadly it has, but I do think it's actually been quite different in the detail over the last 12 years or so.

Cameron was socially liberal (equal marriage etc.) but economically as dry right wing as they come - heavy austerity which is really starting to bite now in public services.

Johnson is significantly more populist authoritarian socially (see Rwanda, Police & Crime Bill) but much more open to public spending than Cameron - this government more or less nationalised employment at one point (of course, in the context of a national crisis, they might behave very differently in more normal times).

Both can be fairly described as centre-right, but there are policies there in the detail that are much further right or even heading towards left wing. May's government was so hamstrung by Brexit that it's essentially impossible to place where she might have been.

Ironically, probably the most authoritarian right wing policy proposed in my lifetime would be Blair proposing 90 day detention without charge - and that from the government that also did proper left wing policies like the minimum wage, SureStart, major investments in health and education and so on.

From what I've seen in the contest so far, Sunak is a return to Cameroonian economics, and Truss a much more continuity Johnson approach.

Pretty much this albeit its worth noting that there has been something of a lurch to the right in recent years both via the entryists from UKIP and Britain First etc.

The more interesting feature is the way that the tumour of ERG has infected the Conservative Party body politic, making a party whose key virtue was traditionally it's lack of ideology to become highly ideological. Even in Thatcher's heyday, "wets" were still able to be in Cabinet; Brexit orthodoxy has now become a form of golden calf that all must bow down to, for fear of excommunication by the Brexit high priests JRM and Steve Baker.

Killing that cancer is vital for the Tory party in the way that excising Militant was for Labour in the 1980s - fail to do so, and it will become a cult looking ever more inwards.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Friday, July 22, 2022, 12:00:48
Problem for labour is that they will have to come up with some actual policies near a GE up to now they have dined out on how bad they think the Tories are especially assisted by the media.

Would be interesting what comes out of the freedom of info request with Durham Police. Apparently they were issuing FPNs to Starmer and Rayner and the chief constable under pressure pulled it. If this comes out will be interesting to see the lack of media coverage to that


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, July 22, 2022, 12:42:04
how bad they think the Tories are especially assisted by the media.

They've assisted themselves there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, July 23, 2022, 10:57:41
They've assisted themselves there.

I didn't think the word bad describes the Tories very well😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, July 23, 2022, 15:37:30
Problem for labour is that they will have to come up with some actual policies near a GE up to now they have dined out on how bad they think the Tories are especially assisted by the media.

Would be interesting what comes out of the freedom of info request with Durham Police. Apparently they were issuing FPNs to Starmer and Rayner and the chief constable under pressure pulled it. If this comes out will be interesting to see the lack of media coverage to that
Apparently they were issuing FPNs to Starmer and Rayner and the chief constable under pressure pulled it ?

Tbf, before becoming interested in a lack of media coverage, I'd be interested in your actual sources for that statement?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Saturday, July 23, 2022, 17:00:33
Apparently they were issuing FPNs to Starmer and Rayner and the chief constable under pressure pulled it ?

Tbf, before becoming interested in a lack of media coverage, I'd be interested in your actual sources for that statement?

Probably the Daily Fail


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, August 4, 2022, 08:21:58
Does anyone else find it really quite surreal that we're heading for 77% energy bill increases in a month or two and there's barely a whisper about it from the government, media or the two leadership candidates? It just feels bizarre that they're all banging on about made up culture war things when half the country is going to struggle to heat their homes this winter. What is a government for if not that?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, August 4, 2022, 08:35:11
Does anyone else find it really quite surreal that we're heading for 77% energy bill increases in a month or two and there's barely a whisper about it from the government, media or the two leadership candidates? It just feels bizarre that they're all banging on about made up culture war things when half the country is going to struggle to heat their homes this winter. What is a government for if not that?

Topped with another 0.5% interest rate predicted which only suits the wealthy!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Thursday, August 4, 2022, 08:58:45
But effectively, we don't have a government at the moment, and haven't had a functioning one for a number of years, I think the last few months have proved that.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, August 4, 2022, 09:03:33
But effectively, we don't have a government at the moment, and haven't had a functioning one for a number of years, I think the last few months have proved that.
100% agree.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, August 4, 2022, 15:31:40
Base rate up to 1.75%

Interestingly money markets have base rate increasing to near 3% by the end of 2023 but then plateauing and declining in the mid/long term

Those predicted rates will already be priced into existing mortgage and savings rates, btw


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Thursday, August 4, 2022, 23:12:27
Does anyone else find it really quite surreal that we're heading for 77% energy bill increases in a month or two and there's barely a whisper about it from the government, media or the two leadership candidates? It just feels bizarre that they're all banging on about made up culture war things when half the country is going to struggle to heat their homes this winter. What is a government for if not that?

Don't pay your energy bill in October. If lots of us do it, it could be effective. They're aiming for 1 million:

https://dontpay.uk/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Friday, August 5, 2022, 08:17:27
Don't pay your energy bill in October. If lots of us do it, it could be effective. They're aiming for 1 million:

https://dontpay.uk/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBojbjoMttI


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, August 5, 2022, 09:51:39
This is what the Tory turds say when they think we’re not listening

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/conservatives/2022/08/exclusive-rishi-sunak-taking-money-deprived-urban-areas


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Friday, August 5, 2022, 10:45:15
This is what the Tory turds say when they think we’re not listening

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/conservatives/2022/08/exclusive-rishi-sunak-taking-money-deprived-urban-areas
Hang on - Context is key. Not sure what he said before or what he said after. But, you can pull a soundbite out of anything and make it sound worse than it is. I really detest fake news and slamming people for the wrong things.

My position is that out of the 2 Tory leadership contestants, I think that Sunak's outlook might be better than Truss's - But, I'm no expert. Furthermore, I don't like the fact of an unelected leader as PM - I didn't like it with Gordon Brown either.

I'd like to see a snap election. But I fear that the opposition are just as poor as the present incumbents.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, August 5, 2022, 11:24:43
Furthermore, I don't like the fact of an unelected leader as PM - I didn't like it with Gordon Brown either.

I'd like to see a snap election. But I fear that the opposition are just as poor as the present incumbents.

Yeah, could be wrong but can't think of many other countries where the resignation of the Premier wouldn't result in an election.

Brown, Major, May as well although her hand was forced into one in the end.

Reg used to argue that the electorate were voting a party and not an individual into power. True to an extent, but would JRM, as Tory leader for example, still have won a massive majority in the last election.

It is was it is and 160000 members of Das Partie get to decide who the next PM is.
Then again the whole FPTP system is not exactly a shining example of democracy in action.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, August 5, 2022, 11:25:30
We don't elect a Prime Minister, it's not a Presidency.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, August 5, 2022, 11:35:07
True, but the nature of the individual up for the top job must make a difference in voters minds.

I suspect that The Cult of Boris helped to secure a much bigger majority than if any of the other wannabes were Tory leader.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, August 5, 2022, 12:10:11
I did read a very interesting thing the other day which pointed out that the last PM to both become PM at an election by winning it and leave the post by losing an election was James Callaghan - so this stuff isn't unusual.

(For detail - Thatcher deposed mid-term, Major took power mid term, Blair resigned mid-term, Brown took power mid term, Cameron resigned mid-term, May both took power and resigned mid-term, as did Johnson)

Obviously it's not for me to tell Rishi Sunak what to do, but I think the best option for him right now is to withdraw - he's miles behind in the polls, tanking his reputation and he can look statesmanlike by saying the country needs a fully functioning government right now to deal with the energy crisis. It's going to be a singularly difficult time to become PM anyway, so probably helps him long term not to win!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Moss on Friday, August 5, 2022, 12:16:02
Don't pay your energy bill in October. If lots of us do it, it could be effective. They're aiming for 1 million:

https://dontpay.uk/

But that will just add cost to everyone - less providers and even more of a monopoly. They will also pretty quickly make it legal to cut people off and then we will really be in trouble...... (or those that don't pay will)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, August 5, 2022, 12:51:14
But that will just add cost to everyone

How the did you work that out? All providers are charging the maximum amount allowed by Ofgem.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, August 5, 2022, 13:00:45
Hang on - Context is key. Not sure what he said before or what he said after. But, you can pull a soundbite out of anything and make it sound worse than it is. I really detest fake news and slamming people for the wrong things.

My position is that out of the 2 Tory leadership contestants, I think that Sunak's outlook might be better than Truss's - But, I'm no expert. Furthermore, I don't like the fact of an unelected leader as PM - I didn't like it with Gordon Brown either.

I'd like to see a snap election. But I fear that the opposition are just as poor as the present incumbents.




Here’s the context

https://news.sky.com/story/rishi-sunak-under-fire-for-claiming-he-worked-to-divert-money-from-deprived-urban-areas-when-chancellor-12666046


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Friday, August 5, 2022, 13:39:46
True, but the nature of the individual up for the top job must make a difference in voters minds.

I suspect that The Cult of Boris helped to secure a much bigger majority than if any of the other wannabes were Tory leader.

That was the cult of Brexit, not Boris


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Friday, August 5, 2022, 13:45:23
Here’s the context

https://news.sky.com/story/rishi-sunak-under-fire-for-claiming-he-worked-to-divert-money-from-deprived-urban-areas-when-chancellor-12666046
That's not context, its spin! The media are trying to slam BOTH candidates. We live in unfortunate times, where everyone's objective seems to be to criticise, blame and denigrate others!

When you prioritise things then you can do it in different ways. Lets take a simple scenario with three things that need funding - Project A, B & C

One way of funding is 100% to A and nothing to B and C

But surely B & C deserve something?

A second way is A 33.3% B 33.3% and C 33.3%

But surely A might need more than C?

A third way might be A 60% B 30% and C 10%

Those percentages might give what A, B and C each 'deserve'

So, do you see what I mean now by context?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, August 5, 2022, 14:04:56
That was the cult of Brexit, not Boris

Yeah, to an extent.
Not sure if the election result mirrored the referendum vote.
An element of just wanting it out of the way at play as well.

An irony of sorts was that in all likelihood Corbyn voted to leave as well.

A simple slogan will always do the trick.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, August 5, 2022, 15:47:28
Yeah, to an extent.
Not sure if the election result mirrored the referendum vote.
An element of just wanting it out of the way at play as well.

An irony of sorts was that in all likelihood Corbyn voted to leave as well.

A simple slogan will always do the trick.


A simple slogan will always do the trick.


Better ring up Captain Hindsight and tell him that is how easy it is then and lovely Labour should be home and dry in two years time.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Friday, August 5, 2022, 19:55:54
But that will just add cost to everyone - less providers and even more of a monopoly. They will also pretty quickly make it legal to cut people off and then we will really be in trouble...... (or those that don't pay will)

How would it lead to less providers?

The key is getting a substantial number of homes not to pay.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, August 5, 2022, 19:57:58
How would it lead to less providers?

The key is getting a substantial number of homes not to pay.

If homeowners don't pay more providers will go out of business leaving just a few to choose from.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: thedarkprince on Friday, August 5, 2022, 20:44:26
If homeowners don't pay more providers will go out of business leaving just a few to choose from.

I’m sure the billions of profits being hoarded at the moment will cushion the blow.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, August 5, 2022, 20:50:59
I’m sure the billions of profits being hoarded at the moment will cushion the blow.

It will but shared with even fewer greedy bastards meaning they will get even richer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, August 5, 2022, 21:16:16
It will but shared with even fewer greedy bastards meaning they will get even richer.

Nothing wrong with being rich. Unless of course if you’re not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, August 5, 2022, 21:21:39
Nothing wrong with being rich. Unless of course if you’re not.

Very true LL but it's not like the average house owner has a choice anymore which the energy suppliers are manipulating.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, August 5, 2022, 21:40:15
Very true LL but it's not like the average house owner has a choice anymore which the energy suppliers are manipulating.

More choice than ever. I think the point missed is the energy rises are are not unique to this country. Across the globe prices are going skyward at a speed which make the space shuttle look pedestrian. Besides we no longer rely on British Gas as our sole provider anymore. I’m making not excuses for any energy company. I have no vested interest or money invested in any of them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, August 5, 2022, 21:45:02
More choice than ever. I think the point missed is the energy rises are are not unique to this country. Across the globe prices are going skyward at a speed which make the space shuttle look pedestrian. Besides we no longer rely on British Gas as our sole provider anymore. I’m making excuses for any energy company. I have not vested interest or money invested in any of them.

The problem is most of us in modern homes need them for the coming winter whoever we choose to go with.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Sunday, August 7, 2022, 12:51:19
If homeowners don't pay more providers will go out of business leaving just a few to choose from.

There aren't many left except the big boys.

The idea made the Guardian today, so hopefully word will spread now that it's in the 'papers.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/aug/07/cant-pay-wont-pay-thousands-in-britain-vow-to-ignore-energy-bills


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, August 7, 2022, 12:58:43
There aren't many left except the big boys.

The idea made the Guardian today, so hopefully word will spread now that it's in the 'papers.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/aug/07/cant-pay-wont-pay-thousands-in-britain-vow-to-ignore-energy-bills

It will be interesting to see if the can't-pay-won't-pay movement gains momentum. The danger is thousands may jump on the bandwagon thinking they can get they're energy for free rather than reducing their direcet debit to what would be deemed as a reasonable amount.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JBZ on Sunday, August 7, 2022, 13:09:56
Good luck with that


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, August 7, 2022, 13:31:33
Good luck with that

It will all end in tears😅


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Sunday, August 7, 2022, 16:31:31
No one thinks they can get it for free.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, August 7, 2022, 16:32:47
If they don't pay anything when would they pay back what they've used🤔 I've seen a few videos of drivers only paying so much of their fuel bills minus what the government have added on which seems more reasonable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bedford Red on Sunday, August 7, 2022, 16:38:10
I hope people realise if they don't pay all sorts of things could potentially happen.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62435432

Not saying they would happen, but people who are thinking about not paying should at least know the potential risks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Sunday, August 7, 2022, 17:06:49
Good luck with that

If everyone had your attitude we'd all be paying poll tax


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Sunday, August 7, 2022, 17:37:23
Now the talk from Truss is cutting National Insurance - nobody seems to want to pay towards it and they then wonder why the health service is in a mess and the pension crap


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, August 7, 2022, 18:19:18
Now the talk from Truss is cutting National Insurance - nobody seems to want to pay towards it and they then wonder why the health service is in a mess and the pension crap

So you’re the one paying for it? Well I’ll take my hat off to you for being so generous of spirit.

You do realise that NI isn’t ring fenced for the NHS & Pensions surely? I doubt (though one of your socialist holier than thou acolytes will gleefully dig up the numbers) that all NI annualised contributions go anywhere near paying for those two mammoth drains on the exchequer.

It is a sound bite from a politician aspiring to become leader of a political party who happen to have control of the HOC. Get used to it, everyone of the cunts who sit in the HOC will be at it in two years time when the next GE is called looking for as many votes as they can lay their grubby hands on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, August 7, 2022, 18:25:26
I wonder If Robert Buckland follows the forum and reports back to HOC😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, August 7, 2022, 18:44:06
I wonder If Robert Buckland follows the forum and reports back to HOC😀

Like I give a fuck. 😉


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, August 7, 2022, 18:46:25
Like I give a fuck. 😉

You don't normally swear😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Sunday, August 7, 2022, 19:12:24
Electricity providers are allowed to cut you off (with 7 days notice) 28 days after not paying your bill. Whilst the idea is to hold out as long as possible, even if some people cancelled their direct debits and then reinstated them before the 28 days it would still make a point and mess up their predictions and cash flow enough to make them notice and act. You don't have to go extreme if you don't want to. Come on, fuck these companies. Their profits and pollution are insane.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, August 7, 2022, 21:47:20
You don't normally swear😀

Fuck me you're right I don’t.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, August 7, 2022, 21:49:01
Electricity providers are allowed to cut you off (with 7 days notice) 28 days after not paying your bill. Whilst the idea is to hold out as long as possible, even if some people cancelled their direct debits and then reinstated them before the 28 days it would still make a point and mess up their predictions and cash flow enough to make them notice and act. You don't have to go extreme if you don't want to. Come on, fuck these companies. Their profits and pollution are insane.

You go first then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Monday, August 8, 2022, 10:11:55
I'm saying there's a way to make your point without any negative implications. But yeah, sit there and don't act if you're sufficiently scared by nothing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Tuesday, August 9, 2022, 10:13:03
Some more info

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220809/9e7dd4e7ecae87722b2cf01f14ebdff9.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220809/0f6b7f888fc7fe4dad52ef66ab31c522.jpg)

And potential repercussions. Personally, I would cave before these become possible.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220809/ceded852d0a7a7024aac3ac55c28dede.jpg)

I'm not sure about the 3rd point there, about changing tariff. If I cancelled my direct debit today (for any reason), they wouldn't change my tariff.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bedford Red on Tuesday, August 9, 2022, 11:04:39
Thanks for posting that, i'm glad they are pointing out the potential risks, as it would be awful it people ended up with CCJ's, paying more on higher tariffs as they didn't realise the risks.

Also good you've pointed out what people can do (and a lot of people would also cave like you have said you would do before they became possible).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62475171

Costs to be over £4.2k in January. Surely the Government can't wait until a new prime minister is installed to say anything. Get Liz Truss,Rishi Sunak, Boris etc together and agree something now for whoever is the PM.

I'm going back into the office full time in the Autumn (been working at home since Covid started). I probably won't be the only one. Will save heating my home in the day, and also running a laptop, screen's etc in the day as well. Still going to be difficult, but it will get my usage down a bit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, August 9, 2022, 11:10:12
Surely the Government can't wait until a new prime minister is installed to say anything. Get Liz Truss, Rishi Sunak, Boris etc together and agree something now for whoever is the PM.

Quite. Get Starmer in the room if they're worried about political blowback, this is heading towards being a proper national emergency and the government is asleep at the wheel.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, August 9, 2022, 11:37:30

I'm going back into the office full time in the Autumn (been working at home since Covid started). I probably won't be the only one. Will save heating my home in the day, and also running a laptop, screen's etc in the day as well. Still going to be difficult, but it will get my usage down a bit.

That could well be an underlying factor in any decision NOT to take action.  The UK govt's position was to have people return back to their old ways of working due to the economic shock it has brought about on Commercial Real Estate.

In terms of the bills, the company sending that to you is likely making very little in profit because the price cap has only ever related to retail and not wholesale pricing.  It's the company extracting/producing that have been milking the prices caused by energy being traded like a commodity.  They had a bit of a case that Covid caused a year of pain, but that was only after decades of profit and now insane profits given they haven't had to do anything new to earn it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, August 9, 2022, 12:56:03
... It's the company extracting/producing that have been milking the prices caused by energy being traded like a commodity.....
The commodification of energy is an interesting issue.

Not sure where I heard this snippet (on the TEF possibly!) but someone asking why their "renewables only" energy contract has gone up so much, had it explained to them that the price of renewable energy had been raised as a result of the energy scarcity generally.

ie the bill did not escape massive hikes due to the cost of production or even supply remaining largely unchanged.  It balooned because the energy"market" had skyrocketed generally making renewables more pricey. [I personally know nothing about this sector].


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Monday, September 5, 2022, 11:17:45
Margaret Thatcher appointed Tory leader


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 5, 2022, 11:18:06
So first PM younger than me, I'm getting old, reading up on her, her private life is a little more lively than I envisaged.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Monday, September 5, 2022, 11:32:36
Margaret Thatcher appointed Tory leader
Thatcher Tribute Act.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Miles Mayhem on Monday, September 5, 2022, 11:44:14
Trust Truss……. To save the country or bugger it up further. If she can sort out the mess that Boris left behind she could be a shoe in for the next election. It’s a big ask.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 5, 2022, 11:54:05
Thatcher Tribute Act.

Thing is whatever one thinks of Thatcher (and I was too young to really have an opinion) you look at her ideology and government and it was developed by some pretty clever people both in terms of its background ideology, objectives and delivery, also see the long-standing (both before and after) political heavyweights who served in her cabinets. Compare these with Truss and the ideology driven but substance free zealots lightweights she is surrounded by, its all sound bite and bluster so I think to compare her to Thatcher does Maggie quite the injustice. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, September 5, 2022, 12:09:40
Quote from: tans
Margaret Thatcher appointed Tory leader

wannabe


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 5, 2022, 12:27:51
What a totally normal country we live in

https://twitter.com/jonoread/status/1566749139823693829


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 5, 2022, 13:00:06
BTW is this 'Spacey' formerly of this PArish?

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1566752604222267397


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, September 5, 2022, 13:22:39
Quote
BTW is this 'Spacey' formerly of this PArish?

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1566752604222267397 (https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1566752604222267397)
yup.

brilliant


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, September 5, 2022, 16:41:08
Priti Patel stepping down as home secretary (before being pushed?)


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 5, 2022, 20:08:22
Priti Patel stepping down as home secretary (before being pushed?)
Off to pursue opportunities in the dalmatian farming industry?

Sent from my SM-A125F


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, September 5, 2022, 21:48:51
😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, September 6, 2022, 06:51:11
Dorries going too, thank fuck .

though Johnson will give her a peerage no doubt


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 6, 2022, 08:47:46
Dorries going too, thank fuck .

though Johnson will give her a peerage no doubt

https://twitter.com/MrJonDePlume/status/1565451800546877445


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, September 6, 2022, 08:56:01
You'll only disappoint yourself cheering cabinet exits. Those coming in will be no better. 

Well, actually they might be better than Dorries. But that's a low bar.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 6, 2022, 09:47:54
I see that the two (why they couldn't go in a single one) private jets they have taken up to see Brenda are from a company owned by Steve Lansdown, coincidentally a Tory donor - benefiting donors even to the end.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, September 6, 2022, 09:57:06
you don't put your eggs in one basket in case it crashes


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: bathford on Tuesday, September 6, 2022, 11:11:24
I see that the two (why they couldn't go in a single one) private jets they have taken up to see Brenda are from a company owned by Steve Lansdown, coincidentally a Tory donor - benefiting donors even to the end.

The RAF have retired the fleet of aircraft used for such occasions. They are replacing them with the type used today. Centreline won the contract to provide aircraft and crew whilst the RAF pilots of 32 squadron are trained.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: bathford on Tuesday, September 6, 2022, 11:27:18
I see that Truss is now at Balmoral. I can imagine the conversation.

Queen : So who are you?

LT :I’m your next PM Ma’am

Queen : What’s your name?

LT : Liz Truss Ma’am

Queen: Liz, Elizabeth. That’s my name too. How jolly!!

Queen: So how are you going to help people with their bills?

LT : Help them? Me? Don’t be silly Ma’am

Queen: Good girl. By the way, do my subjects have to pay for stuff? How jolly!!

Queen: Anyway, not my problem. Fuck orf!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, September 6, 2022, 11:47:19
The RAF have retired the fleet of aircraft used for such occasions. They are replacing them with the type used today. Centreline won the contract to provide aircraft and crew whilst the RAF pilots of 32 squadron are trained.

Is that what was the BAE146's of the Queens flight (lived under the flight path at Brize when I was a kid, so knew quite a bit about RAF stuff then!)

Why aren't they using the two penis extenders that Johnson had painted up to resemble BA planes?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: bathford on Tuesday, September 6, 2022, 11:55:02
Is that what was the BAE146's of the Queens flight (lived under the flight path at Brize when I was a kid, so knew quite a bit about RAF stuff then!)

Why aren't they using the two penis extenders that Johnson had painted up to resemble BA planes?

Yes the BAe146’s of 32 (Royal) Squadron from Northolt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Tuesday, September 6, 2022, 20:18:04
Rees-Mogg appointed Secretary of state for Business, Energy and Industrial strategy.

Fucking hell, they are trolling us


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Tuesday, September 6, 2022, 20:29:55
Rees-Mogg appointed Secretary of state for Business, Energy and Industrial strategy.

Fucking hell, they are trolling us

Oh you fucking think..... SoS for Health and Social Care is THERESA FUCKING COFFEY! FFS!! God help us all. I never thought I'd ever look back at Jeremy Hunt and think, safe pair of hands...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Tuesday, September 6, 2022, 20:31:50
Biggest arse licker of them all🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, September 6, 2022, 20:39:21
Rees-Mogg appointed Secretary of state for Business, Energy and Industrial strategy.

Fucking hell, they are trolling us

The East India Company will be absolutely delighted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, September 23, 2022, 09:40:45
This is erm... a Tory backbench dream budget, isn't it? Abolishing the top band(150k+) of income tax, cutting income tax and corporation tax, uncapping bankers' bonuses, stamp duty cut. £45bn in tax cuts funded by borrowing in the hope of growing the economy.

That is... risky economics. At best. The markets certainly seem spooked. It's full on Thatcherite trickle-down economics stuff. Crikey.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Friday, September 23, 2022, 10:18:07
Remember when Labour were castigated for their borrowing?"Magic money tree"anyone?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, September 23, 2022, 10:21:39
I’m not sure what giving and extra £800 or so pounds per month to people earning £150k in a high savings rate environment will do for economic growth, but we will see.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, September 23, 2022, 10:32:20
This is erm... a Tory backbench dream budget, isn't it? Abolishing the top band(150k+) of income tax, cutting income tax and corporation tax, uncapping bankers' bonuses, stamp duty cut. £45bn in tax cuts funded by borrowing in the hope of growing the economy.

That is... risky economics. At best. The markets certainly seem spooked. It's full on Thatcherite trickle-down economics stuff. Crikey.

Indeed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 23, 2022, 10:53:42
This is erm... a Tory backbench dream budget, isn't it? Abolishing the top band(150k+) of income tax, cutting income tax and corporation tax, uncapping bankers' bonuses, stamp duty cut. £45bn in tax cuts funded by borrowing in the hope of growing the economy.

That is... risky economics. At best. The markets certainly seem spooked. It's full on Thatcherite trickle-down economics stuff. Crikey.

Borrowing to fund tax cuts all has an air of Ponzi scheme about it.

Its a brave/crazy strategy to win and election, I cannot imagine the capping of bankers bonuses, the top rate of tax, the ban on Foie Gras etc were high in the minds of red wall voters, but what do I know.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Friday, September 23, 2022, 14:03:41
This is erm... a Tory backbench dream budget, isn't it? Abolishing the top band(150k+) of income tax, cutting income tax and corporation tax, uncapping bankers' bonuses, stamp duty cut. £45bn in tax cuts funded by borrowing in the hope of growing the economy.

That is... risky economics. At best. The markets certainly seem spooked. It's full on Thatcherite trickle-down economics stuff. Crikey.

Christ, trickle down economics... even George Bush snr knew that was bollocks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, September 23, 2022, 14:31:16
A mini budget for the wealthy😡 fuck the rest of us already struggling at the lower end of the spectrum!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Friday, September 23, 2022, 14:46:00
Pound drops to a new low. I'm 207 euros worse off in my pay packet this month because of it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Friday, September 23, 2022, 14:58:54
Pound drops to a new low. I'm 207 euros worse off in my pay packet this month because of it
You can't escape the Tories!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 23, 2022, 14:59:20
A mini budget for the wealthy😡 fuck the rest of us already struggling at the lower end of the spectrum!

Quite, especially as if you have a mortgage the inevitable interest rate hike will bite....

You can't escape the Tories!

Putting the n into cuts since 1834.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, September 23, 2022, 15:03:23
Quite, especially as if you have a mortgage the inevitable interest rate hike will bite....

Putting the n into cuts since 1834.

They know what their doing🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: oxonrobin on Friday, September 23, 2022, 19:29:23
I’m not sure what giving and extra £800 or so pounds per month to people earning £150k in a high savings rate environment will do for economic growth, but we will see.

Will help them afford the agency fees on their 4th or 5th rental property  :nod:

This is a parody conservative budget. Oh, you’re struggling with fuel bills, don’t worry here’s an historically high cap, and if we get the PR right you will thank me for it, and vote me in for 5 more. Now, budget time let’s give the 1% the break they need. Great stuff.

Where’s the balance as well, super high risk gamble on out of nowhere growth. I don’t get the strategy, really thought once she was in there would be a switch to some responsible policy. Early signs are not good.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, September 26, 2022, 09:35:27
Worthy of comment that the fascists appear to be back in power in Italy. They can gloss it over & spin it as much as they like, but that is what they are.

The days of reds under the beds are long gone across most of Europe it would seem.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Monday, September 26, 2022, 10:06:39
Will help them afford the agency fees on their 4th or 5th rental property  :nod:

This is a parody conservative budget. Oh, you’re struggling with fuel bills, don’t worry here’s an historically high cap, and if we get the PR right you will thank me for it, and vote me in for 5 more. Now, budget time let’s give the 1% the break they need. Great stuff.

Where’s the balance as well, super high risk gamble on out of nowhere growth. I don’t get the strategy, really thought once she was in there would be a switch to some responsible policy. Early signs are not good.

Didn't Rishi warn against this type of budget when he was making his case for the premiership? Obviously it's captain hindsight stuff but it makes you wonder what he thinks of this and what he would have done differently.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 26, 2022, 10:45:04
Worthy of comment that the fascists appear to be back in power in Italy. They can gloss it over & spin it as much as they like, but that is what they are.

The days of reds under the beds are long gone across most of Europe it would seem.

Indeed, I must admit to not knowing a great deal about them, we have the BBC rightly raising concern regarding the election of a 'far right' government in Italy, but when you read in the piece the ideology of those being elected and their policy objectives there appears to be little clear blue water between the incoming Italian administration and the present United Kingdom Government....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, September 26, 2022, 11:28:54
Didn't Rishi warn against this type of budget when he was making his case for the premiership? Obviously it's captain hindsight stuff but it makes you wonder what he thinks of this and what he would have done differently.

To be mildly fair to Sunak, he was definitely Cpt. Foresight on this one, he was the only Tory candidate not promising immediate huge tax cuts upon taking power. It wasn't exactly Delphic, but there you go. A Tory Chancellor almost deliberately tanking the currency, we really are through the looking glass now...

Sinking our currency whilst the major economic crisis is buying gas (in dollars) and whilst trying to borrow more (at rapidly rising interest rates) is a brave move. Very brave, in the words of Sir Humphrey...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Wednesday, September 28, 2022, 11:49:33
So both the IMF & the Bank of England are critical of new government.

Are they trying to ruin the economy ready for the next government to get the blame  🤷🏼‍♂️


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, September 28, 2022, 13:59:15
Are they trying to ruin the economy ready for the next government to get the blame  🤷🏼‍♂️

Its not going so well if they are.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, September 29, 2022, 18:15:44
https://twitter.com/i/status/1575389891453648901

I haven't paid that much attention to Truss, have enough of clown show politics over here.  This however suggests the UK has an imbecile in charge, best of luck (from an truly independent who has no party they align to).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Thursday, September 29, 2022, 20:23:04
https://twitter.com/i/status/1575389891453648901

I haven't paid that much attention to Truss, have enough of clown show politics over here.  This however suggests the UK has an imbecile in charge, best of luck (from an truly independent who has no party they align to).

I assume the new programme Make Me Prime Minister will reveal that Truss has won it, and it's all a big satire by Armando Ianucci. The alternative is Liz Truss is actually PM.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, September 29, 2022, 20:56:20
nobody gave her a script for that one


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, September 30, 2022, 07:33:05
A 33 (thirty-three) point poll lead. Christ on a fleet of bicycles. Obviously that's an outlier but Truss is doing a remarkably impressive job of tanking everything in sight at this point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, September 30, 2022, 08:01:05
She's got two years yet. They could still recover.

Or until Christmas. Not sure which.

Tory party needs a reset, so a heavy defeat might be best all round.

Hopefully Labour will bring in PR to head off losing SNP to the EU when the jocks go indy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, September 30, 2022, 08:05:31
Angela Rayner gave a resounding speech at the Labour conference earlier this week😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 30, 2022, 11:01:52
 For those who prefer a visual representation of the consequences of the recent budget… https://kamikwasi.tax/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, October 3, 2022, 07:27:53
Government U-turn over scrapping the 45p tax rate after realising their back benches wouldn't let it through the commons.

A reminder it's 'only' with about 2bn a year, or 38 million a week.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Monday, October 3, 2022, 10:49:11
I guess there's 2 ways of looking at "U turns"
(a) they show that you listen to general opinion or
(b) they show you don't know what you're doing.
I think (b) in this case


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, October 3, 2022, 10:55:32
I guess there's 2 ways of looking at "U turns"
(a) they show that you listen to general opinion or
(b) they show you don't know what you're doing.
I think (b) in this case

c) They underestimated market turmoil/were forced into by their own seat fearing back benchers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Monday, October 3, 2022, 14:46:10
I guess there's 2 ways of looking at "U turns"
(a) they show that you listen to general opinion or
(b) they show you don't know what you're doing.
I think (b) in this case

d)  You cynically announce something so shit everyone focuses on that, and then conveniently forget some of the other shit you try & get through when you relent on the thing you never really wanted to do in the first place.   Have seen this so often in businesses over the years


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, October 3, 2022, 14:49:37
When all the global currencies crash all we’ll need is food, water and energy.

And an AK47


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, October 3, 2022, 14:50:45
d)  You cynically announce something so shit everyone focuses on that, and then conveniently forget some of the other shit you try & get through when you relent on the thing you never really wanted to do in the first place.   Have seen this so often in businesses over the years

Indeed, oldest negotiating trick in the book.

The big policy change has basically changed the unfunded black hole from c.£45bn with the 45% rate to a £43bn unfunded package, so this U turn has, in itself, essentially no effect on fiscal sustainability, it still resembles economics which would do Bernie Madoff proud.

Add into the mix the £18bn cut in public spending which has rater quietly been lost in the small print, more austerity then, because that did so much to promote growth last time didn't it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, October 3, 2022, 16:59:08
We keep being told that reducing tax rates increases tax takes - so you'd think that would bring in more spare cash for the public sector - rather than cuts.  

However cutting taxes to increase the tax take seems rather like the £350 million a week extra the Government has also had available post Brexit for the NHS for example.

The Conservatives are f*****d.  Their program has no mandate.  All we can do is watch them push aside the women and children as they grab the booze and the lifeboats to ensure a bright future outside parliament 2 years hence.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Wednesday, October 5, 2022, 09:59:01
I keep wondering if the Conservatives know a 2008 style recession is incoming, so are making themselves unelectable in the short term, so that Labour can have a bash at fixing it (they won't) and then the Tory's can do a bit more austerity in the next few terms when they're re-elected.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, October 14, 2022, 10:19:42
Kwasi Kwarteng being sacked


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 14, 2022, 10:24:29
Kwasi Kwarteng being sacked

Far from a fan of Kwarteng but how can she sack him with a straight face (and anyone consider it drawing a line) when a) the budget he presented is in the main just delivering what she based here entire leadership election on and b) she has basically spent the last fortnight saying there was nothing wrong with said budget.

I cannot imagine the much reported massive ego of Kwarteng is going to take this very well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, October 14, 2022, 11:04:23
Far from a fan of Kwarteng but how can she sack him with a straight face (and anyone consider it drawing a line) when a) the budget he presented is in the main just delivering what she based here entire leadership election on and b) she has basically spent the last fortnight saying there was nothing wrong with said budget.

I cannot imagine the much reported massive ego of Kwarteng is going to take this very well.

Indeed, it's pretty desperate stuff.

Very funny though (if you can separate the drama of it from the financial meltdown)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, October 14, 2022, 11:16:24
There will now have been more chancellors than Watford managers in 2022


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 14, 2022, 11:17:15
There will now have been more chancellors than Watford managers in 2022

Pre-Brexit we had three Chancellors in 19 years. Post-Brexit six in six.

Kwarteng was Chancellor for five days less than David Blaine was in that box

When Kwarteng's replacement takes office, the Conservative party will have had as many chancellors of the exchequer in 2022 as the Labour party has since 1967.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, October 14, 2022, 11:20:40
Sacrificial lambs, all of them. The top Tories know they’re going to lose heavily in the next election no matter who is leader.

Better to lose a bunch of bozos now than someone who may be a genuine leader after the election loss.

This may even be a terminal decline for them. I just can’t see who they can appeal to now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, October 14, 2022, 11:30:34
I just can’t see who they can appeal to now.

I'm waiting for LL to turn before I truly think they're done...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, October 14, 2022, 11:33:01
No fucking Plan B, that's the problem  :no:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, October 14, 2022, 12:18:15
I have to say, kudos to the script writer on this Sitcom.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Friday, October 14, 2022, 12:33:15
Jeremy Hunt being linked with the role feels somewhat like a joke much akin to Sheena Easton and/or a manetee being linked to the Swindon managers job.
And a manatee would probably do a better job


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 14, 2022, 12:51:19
Jeremy Hunt being linked with the role feels somewhat like a joke much akin to Sheena Easton and/or a manetee being linked to the Swindon managers job.
And a manatee would probably do a better job

Hunt's got it, so there is hope for Sheena yet....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, October 14, 2022, 14:11:47
Hunt. Fucking hell. We've scraped though the barrel there


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Friday, October 14, 2022, 14:31:06
Complete farce of a government. I’m politically pretty neutral (have voted for both labour and tories in the past) so I have no axe to grind, and from my point of view this mini budget was a mess from day dot. How could they not have foreseen the furore it would cause? Utterly incompetent. Truss has the votability of a peanut.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, October 14, 2022, 14:35:20
Jeremy Hunt is rhyming slang isn’t he?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ticker45 on Friday, October 14, 2022, 14:47:08
I have always maintained that apart from the odd MP who has some real background and say in whichever department they head up, the real work is always done by the Civil Service no matter which party is supposed to be in charge. In this case the Treasury totally got the Government back after the top man there was recently forced out, cross swords with the "Sir Humphrey's" (for the older ones among us) at your peril.

Yes, Kwasi Karteng had a degree in an area of economics but was totally out of his depth and coupled with the infighting was always going to lose as too many axes being ground out at the moment.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, October 14, 2022, 15:01:04
Interesting take on Truss et al

https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2022/october/4/exposed-liz-truss-kwasi-kwarteng-the-dark-money-oligarchs-george-monbiot


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 14, 2022, 15:36:16
Hunt. Fucking hell. We've scraped though the barrel there

There are suggestions he has his eye on the long game as there may be a caretaker PM role coming available in the not too distant, albeit I assume it would be a battle between him and Allardyce as to who would get it until the end of the season.

In this case the Treasury totally got the Government back after the top man there was recently forced out, cross swords with the "Sir Humphrey's" (for the older ones among us) at your peril.

Yes, Kwasi Karteng had a degree in an area of economics but was totally out of his depth and coupled with the infighting was always going to lose as too many axes being ground out at the moment.

Not sure the Civil Service had much say in this one, the guy was booted out late in the day as they knew he would tell them it was bollocks (see also the OBR not being allowed to provide any supporting docs), whilst the principles proposed have been in the public domain and directly linked to Truss and Kwarteng since Britannia Unchained was published 10 years ago.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Friday, October 14, 2022, 18:00:56
Rachel Reeves is much better qualified just needs to switch to the Conservatives


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Friday, October 14, 2022, 18:40:09
Complete farce of a government. I’m politically pretty neutral (have voted for both labour and tories in the past) so I have no axe to grind, and from my point of view this mini budget was a mess from day dot. How could they not have foreseen the furore it would cause? Utterly incompetent. Truss has the votability of a peanut.

Lots of people, me included really like peanuts though.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Monday, October 17, 2022, 10:52:23
Jeremy Hunt reverses nearly all tax cuts in mini budget and scales back support for energy bills


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, October 17, 2022, 11:33:07
what a fucking shambles, IR35 and energy support being the biggest fuckers


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Monday, October 17, 2022, 12:10:46
Lots of people, me included really like peanuts though.....

Can't stand them, but I shouldn't have taken my frustration out on the little fellas, its just not cricket. I apologise.

We basically have a new Prime Minister don't we? Except a Prime Minister who is also the Chancellor. Will she step down? I don't think so. I expect the senior Tories who call the shots will want her to stay as a kind of figurehead who doesn't make any of the important decisions rather than trigger another leadership battle. The only thing they want less than that is a general election


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 15:02:33
Suella Braverman gone as home sec

Grant Shapps tipped to take over


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 15:03:39
The men in grey suits strike back.

Braverman was properly nuts, even by the standards of the current government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 15:21:36
Send her on the next dinghy to Rwanda


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 15:29:26
Sharing security information by a private phone apparently



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 15:43:47
Sharing security information by a private phone apparently



Can’t imagine letting slip in parliament that the government had in the past sold golden visa’s to Russian oligarchs helped either


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 15:48:45
Sharing security information by a private phone apparently

What an idiot. Absolutely stupid thing to do.

She "resigned" I see. Oooh Liz, you're so decisive.

The Government walls are a wobbling.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 15:55:57
The Gernmental merry-go-round....its Grant Shapps (aka Michael Green, Corinne Stockheath and Sebastian Fox)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 16:39:16
It's a Mutiny of the Mutiny.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 16:43:42
It has to be the weakest most farcical government in decades. "Their all gone so why she still here"🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 17:11:03
The men in grey suits strike back.

Braverman was properly nuts, even by the standards of the current government.

No-one gets on the wrong side of big tofu and survives

Vote at 7 has been three line whipped and is a proxy vote of confidence in the government. Only needs 30-odd Tories to go against it for their majority to be gone


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 17:19:00
No-one gets on the wrong side of big tofu and survives

Vote at 7 has been three line whipped and is a proxy vote of confidence in the government. Only needs 30-odd Tories to go against it for their majority to be gone

Which is to trap them.  Their No Confidence letters won't count if they have the Tory Whip removed, so they are having to vote with the Govt.  Seems a few are planning on ploughing ahead though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 17:19:13
Forgot to add - Tory MP’s are being whipped to break a manifesto pledge to support a Prime Minister neither they, nor the party members, nor the Nation want

We’re one of those tinpot nations people would thumb their noses at pre-2016


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 18:43:41
seems they are now struggling to organise a vote in a voting lobby ...


"MPs variously describing tonight's voting process as "total carnage" and "utter madness", with Cabinet minister Jacon Rees-Mogg reportedly shouting "it's not a confidence vote" and Tory colleagues apparently telling him "fuck off""


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 19:09:03
Chris Bryant says he has photos of Tory whips manhandling MP’s to get them to vote with the government


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 19:18:36
seems they are now struggling to organise a vote in a voting lobby ...


"MPs variously describing tonight's voting process as "total carnage" and "utter madness", with Cabinet minister Jacon Rees-Mogg reportedly shouting "it's not a confidence vote" and Tory colleagues apparently telling him "fuck off""

Jacob Rees Mogg has there ever been a bigger arse licker in parliament and where's he found the time to Father six kids🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Steak supper on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 20:01:06
i found that the man's  role in creating kids can take a matter of seconds


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 20:53:29
Jacob Rees Mogg has there ever been a bigger arse licker in parliament and where's he found the time to Father six kids🤣

The bloke is stuck in the victorian ages


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, 22:48:14
🤣🤣🤣

https://twitter.com/scottygb/status/1582855555156037632?s=46&t=MQm8dHv4VOisdnEE1gfmOA


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 03:13:53
The bloke is stuck in the victorian ages

He's certainly done ok for himself as he's said to be worth over 100 million😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 08:21:34
He's certainly done ok for himself as he's said to be worth over 100 million😀

A lot of its about context though isn't it, he was bought up in a stately home and daddy wasn't short of a bob or two, can't imagine he was ever going to be roaming the streets begging.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 11:06:58
A lot of its about context though isn't it, he was bought up in a stately home and daddy wasn't short of a bob or two, can't imagine he was ever going to be roaming the streets begging.

Like lots of Tories...old money...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 11:53:34
Downing Street Statement at 1:30


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 12:04:03
Here we go again!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 12:11:18
GONE GONE GONE. Bye Liz.

Leadership election within a week!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 12:14:04
GONE GONE GONE. Bye Liz.

Leadership election within a week!
Worst. Episode. Ever.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 12:14:05
44 days.

The same as Cloughie at Leeds.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 12:15:06
They are a fucking shambles


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 12:15:58
Worst PM ever, pretty much by default


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 12:16:48
They are a fucking shambles
100%

If I voted Tory or even for Truss if I were a Tory then would feel utterly embarressed by it all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 12:29:52
So the lettuce won.  Give it the job.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 12:37:51
UK politics  :suicide:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 12:45:16
Worst PM ever, pretty much by default

*so far


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Crispy on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 13:14:16
Fuck the Tories


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 13:18:16
These cunts are useless.

GE needed now, let the public have their say.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 13:33:27
I don't think there is one credible party. Think it would be a low turnout.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 13:37:52
GONE GONE GONE. Bye Liz.

Leadership election within a week!

Boris has allegedly thrown his hat into the ring.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 13:47:26
Boris has allegedly thrown his hat into the ring.

FFS. This really should not be entertained. But what can you do if they do get behind him?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 14:02:40
#BBB (bring back boris)  :)
Maybe LL could have a go?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 14:12:23
Boris has allegedly thrown his hat into the ring.

Citing 'national interest' I believe...

Whilst I would never want to underestimate the ability of Tory MP's and their membership to do something completely fucking mental, and I have always believed that the plan was for Johnson to ride back in on a white horse, I think after such a short term for Truss (44 days same as Clough did at Leeds I believe) its just been too short a time to reset the headlines, the general public haven't forgotten what a feckless waste of space he was, how little he achieved for just about anyone, the corruption, the lying, lawbreaking and philandering.

But we shall see, never say never!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 14:27:54
He is of course still under 'pants on fire' investigation

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/why-the-privileges-committee-investigation-into-boris-johnson-still-matters-partygate


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 14:31:21
A lot of its about context though isn't it, he was bought up in a stately home and daddy wasn't short of a bob or two, can't imagine he was ever going to be roaming the streets begging.


Fair point you make about being brought up in a stately home so was never going to be short of a bob (million) or two.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 14:32:24
These cunts are useless.

GE needed now, let the public have their say.

Anyone know if a general election can be forced.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 14:35:03
Only by a vote of no confidence in the Govt, which they won't vote for because so many would lose their seats in the GE.  Think Charles could step in and select a PM if he fancied, but unheard of in recent times.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 14:36:23
Only by a vote of no confidence in the Govt, which they won't vote for because so many would lose their seats in the GE.  Think Charles could step in and select a PM if he fancied, but unheard of in recent times.

Cheers Rob, so we're stuck then until May 2024🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 14:38:15
Oops  :-[

https://metro.co.uk/2022/10/20/itvs-robert-peston-makes-c-bomb-jeremy-hunt-gaffe-live-on-air-17600385/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 14:39:16
Krishnan Guru Murphy from C4 also called Steve Baker MP a cunt whilst still mic’ed up


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 14:40:29
It's all very exciting who needs to watch soaps for drama😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 14:43:14
Cheers Rob, so we're stuck then until May 2024🤣

Worse than that, Dec 2024 is the last date the current term can run until, with a further month to hold the GE.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 14:46:25
Worse than that, Dec 2024 is the last date the current term can run until, with a further month to hold the GE.

Damn that's depressing!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 14:55:32
Krishnan Guru Murphy from C4 also called Steve Baker MP a cunt whilst still mic’ed up

And in a stroke managed to unite the country in a way that has been sadly lacking for the last 6 years.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FfdpIakWYCErIe1?format=jpg&name=small)

We also had this which was pretty good https://twitter.com/bmay/status/1582851818417434624

Or as it was reported on German TV https://twitter.com/ProMediaRes1/status/1583060519908696066


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 16:22:06
Who will be making the decisions for the November mini budget 🤔


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 17:08:14
Term of endearment on here  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 17:25:33
Why aren’t we rioting? Or at least forcibly protesting?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 19:29:27
The first and last STFC goals scored under Liz Truss prime ministership were both by the same player (Shade).

Can’t imagine many players will share a similar feat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 19:29:46
Why aren’t we rioting? Or at least forcibly protesting?

I think because the public appear to have been waterboarded so much by shite we-think-we-are-populist-but-we-are-so-out-of-touch-with-the-people populism and oligarch type behaviour in government, that they have become tired of politics and just want to go home.

However, UK Politics is not politics at all and is pure pantomime; much of the UK populace appear to enjoy pantomime. Thus, no riots - just laughter of watching the (shit)show continually unfold. Yet we're all on the same putrefied and sinking good ship HMS Banana.

Can't wait for blackouts. Just the tonic for a progressive top 10 World economy...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Thursday, October 20, 2022, 21:15:40
Spanish equivalent of BBC news 24 is openly laughing about it. It's fucking embarrassing


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, October 21, 2022, 05:11:56
Spanish equivalent of BBC news 24 is openly laughing about it. It's fucking embarrassing

Ring ‘em up and apologise for the nation if you’re embarrassed. I expect they laugh harder and more regularly at the Italians, besides, they’ve not much to shout about themselves TBF.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Friday, October 21, 2022, 06:18:37
Ring ‘em up and apologise for the nation if you’re embarrassed. I expect they laugh harder and more regularly at the Italians, besides, they’ve not much to shout about themselves TBF.

What do you mean? Are you talking about the windfall tax on energy companies? Free train travel for everyone to assist with cost of living? Rise of the minimum wage? Please explain?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, October 21, 2022, 06:47:13
Trains are cheap as fuck in Spain anyway. I remember the last time I was in Malaga and the locals were fuming it had gone up to 3Euro fro a 30 min journey into the city. Great country, I love it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, October 21, 2022, 07:30:07
Ring ‘em up and apologise for the nation if you’re embarrassed. I expect they laugh harder and more regularly at the Italians, besides, they’ve not much to shout about themselves TBF.

Looking at European economies the UK has the second largest, with Germany at number one. France third and Italy fourth, with Spain in fifth. So the UK isn't as bad as some like to make out.
Strange how some countries can run things such as trains so cheaply, as Mex pointed out Spanish train fees are very reasonable. In comparison I went to Rome 3 years ago and a 10 seater taxi cost 80 Euros to only go about 7 miles.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Friday, October 21, 2022, 07:32:42
Yeah the train fares thing is a total mystery.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, October 21, 2022, 07:53:11
Who will be making the decisions for the November mini budget 🤔

Isn't that the chancellor's remit? He is still there as far as I'm aware. But does it need to be 'rubber-stamped' by the PM? Interesting times!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 21, 2022, 08:09:56
Isn't that the chancellor's remit? He is still there as far as I'm aware. But does it need to be 'rubber-stamped' by the PM? Interesting times!

Whoever does it the interesting bit is going to happen when they have to get it through parliament, albeit the Hunt version has considerably greater chance than the Kwarteng variant.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, October 21, 2022, 08:16:00
Whoever does it the interesting bit is going to happen when they have to get it through parliament, albeit the Hunt version has considerably greater chance than the Kwarteng variant.

I think given the absolute mess of the economy if the budget has any chance of making things better for the population it simply has to go through. The news is so depressing these days with the constant reports of people really struggling to make ends meet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 21, 2022, 08:28:13
I think given the absolute mess of the economy if the budget has any chance of making things better for the population it simply has to go through. The news is so depressing these days with the constant reports of people really struggling to make ends meet.

That's rather dependent on having a governing party that has the slightest interest in making things better for the population, and as it stands I fear we don't have that.

It is frankly pretty grim out there at the moment.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, October 21, 2022, 08:42:50
Spain's state pension is miles better than ours as a % of average wage.

But if the triple lock isn't U-Turned with high inflation we can catch Mexico given time.

young ones, it's never too early to start saving. One day you blink and your nearly 50 and you start looking at things like this


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 21, 2022, 09:01:15
Thing is, if Johnson gets in who is going to serve in his government, less than 6 months ago 62 Ministers, PPS's etc resigned from his government (many of whom specifically cited a lack of honesty and integrity on the part of Johnson), letters were flying in to the 1922 Committee saying they had no confidence in him etc?

I know they will just pretend it never happened, but the hypocrisy will stink!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, October 21, 2022, 09:03:34
Labour attack ads will just be clips of all the things the Tories said about him three months ago when they were resigning.

He won't come back though, he's never getting 100 MPs to back him. There are 50-60 who really loudly back him, but the numbers aren't there. I think he knows that and is just trying to keep his name relevant without really wanting the job back. His ideal scenario is probably Sunak winning, losing the next election and then getting to come back as the saviour without having to handle a fucked economy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, October 21, 2022, 09:03:47
They’ll be some absolute brownnosers who will do anything to gain a ministerial position. My local MP had his hooter up Grant Shapps jacksy on twitter the other day basically begging for a job under him


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, October 21, 2022, 09:08:14
you'll be hard pushed to find a bigger pair of party line butt sniffers than Tomlinson and Buckland.

They are presumably waiting to see who looks like winning before supporting them


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, October 21, 2022, 09:09:43
you'll be hard pushed to find a pair of party line butt shaggers than Tomlinson and Buckland.

They are presumably waiting to see who looks like winning before supporting them

Buckland flipped from Sunak to Truss last time when he saw which way the wind was going, didn't he? I think there's actually a fair bit of ideological difference between them (Buckland being more One Nation-y, Tomlinson more hardcore Conservative) but they both are firmly career before principles!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, October 21, 2022, 09:17:17
Thing is, if Johnson gets in who is going to serve in his government, less than 6 months ago 62 Ministers, PPS's etc resigned from his government (many of whom specifically cited a lack of honesty and integrity on the part of Johnson), letters were flying in to the 1922 Committee saying they had no confidence in him etc?

I know they will just pretend it never happened, but the hypocrisy will stink!

I was about to write something similar. It wasn't that long ago that the majority of MPs stated they had no confidence in Boris. Are they now going to say, well the alternative proved to be a disaster, so I think we'll go back to what we have as he's the best of a bad bunch?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, October 21, 2022, 09:28:15
He won't come back though, he's never getting 100 MPs to back him. There are 50-60 who really loudly back him, but the numbers aren't there.

I really wouldn’t be so sure of that if I was you, they only care about their own careers, any sniff of a junior appointment and an MP will back him. If he gets though to the membership ballot then it’s all over bar the blustering

According to sky news the current endorsements stand at
Sunak 45
Boris 31
Mordaunt 16


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 21, 2022, 09:29:28
Spanish equivalent of BBC news 24 is openly laughing about it. It's fucking embarrassing

Americans having a ball as well.

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1583389378042552320


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, October 21, 2022, 09:30:54
I really wouldn’t be so sure of that if I was you, they only care about their own careers, any sniff of a junior appointment and an MP will back him. If he gets though to the membership ballot then it’s all over bar the blustering

According to sky news the current endorsements stand at
Sunak 45
Boris 31
Mordaunt 16

I'd put £5 to the Red Army Fund on Boris not making the ballot if the threshold stays at 100 votes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, October 21, 2022, 09:32:29
I put £20 on him to be PM at 6/1 last night, into about 2/1 now

One bet I hope I lose!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, October 21, 2022, 09:36:43
https://youtu.be/pCtNxp7sfhE


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, October 21, 2022, 10:05:52
Americans having a ball as well.

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1583389378042552320

Coz the American politics pantomime isn't amusing  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Friday, October 21, 2022, 14:59:49
Surely, even considering the utter pantomime this government is now considered as being, even they couldn’t vote for a man to become leader who has literally just been forced to resign from the same job for not being fit to be leader.

Oh who am I kidding, I’ll be more surprised if he’s not voted back in than if he was.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, October 21, 2022, 15:20:00
Stanley wants him back in😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Friday, October 21, 2022, 19:56:17
Put the serial liar back in the liar's chair and finish off this abomination of a party for good


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, October 21, 2022, 20:02:00
May as well bring back Cumming & Hancock for extra comedy at prime ministers questions😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Friday, October 21, 2022, 20:56:21
Yeah the train fares thing is a total mystery.


It really isn't. There are state rail companies running trains across most of Europe.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Saturday, October 22, 2022, 07:06:17
Coz the American politics pantomime isn't amusing  :D
Probably sweet relief from listing Trump's crimes tbh  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Saturday, October 22, 2022, 12:00:14

It really isn't. There are state rail companies running trains across most of Europe.

Yeah my original comment was positively saturated with sarcasm.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, October 22, 2022, 12:04:01
Nationalisation used to be a dirty word. Now, more and more people are warming to the idea again.

Benefit for shareholders or the people? Hardly much of a choice these days.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, October 22, 2022, 16:22:51
Borris now has over 100 MP's backing him😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Saturday, October 22, 2022, 16:37:53
Yeah my original comment was positively saturated with sarcasm.


 :-[  I feel properly wooshed. I need to look at who's posted a comment more carefully so I know tonread them in an ironic voice


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, October 22, 2022, 16:54:45
Borris now has over 100 MP's backing him😀

About half of which have said so publicly... we'll see.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, October 22, 2022, 16:57:07
About half of which have said so publicly... we'll see.

Exciting times! Great time to be a political journalist.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Steak supper on Saturday, October 22, 2022, 20:04:04
if BJ does get back in I hope to see most on here take to the streets


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 07:48:18
These cunts are useless.

GE needed now, let the public have their say.

With respect the public did, at the time voting a Boris lead Tory party to a huge majority. The Tories are under no obligation to hold another GE until January 2025. Unfortunately people vote a party into power not the leader so I’m guessing we have to suck it up for a long time yet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Robinz on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 08:20:33
 Do you really want a minority government.
Trust me when I say that you would be better off with Johnson as PM than a Liberal Green
Labour MMP style of government.
NZ has gone backwards 35years in the la 5 years under this combination
Australia has followed recently followed here and they will follow this decaying situation.
Just make Johnson accountable and keep your eyes open
COYMRs
.




Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 09:00:26
Do you really want a minority government.
Trust me when I say that you would be better off with Johnson as PM than a Liberal Green
Labour MMP style of government.
NZ has gone backwards 35years in the la 5 years under this combination
Australia has followed recently followed here and they will follow this decaying situation.
Just make Johnson accountable and keep your eyes open
COYMRs
.
Where is this minority government coming from?

Its unlikely to be repeated in any GE mainly, due to the Schrodingers Tories, but a great deal of recent polling has has the Tories on seats in single figures (one recently has them on 0 seats).

As it stands its potentially the case that it would be Blackford sat where Starmer sits at the moment.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 09:06:51
With respect the public did, at the time voting a Boris lead Tory party to a huge majority. The Tories are under no obligation to hold another GE until January 2025. Unfortunately people vote a party into power not the leader so I’m guessing we have to suck it up for a long time yet.

Over 50% didn't.  What we as suffering is a fault of our electoral system.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 09:12:08
Over 50% didn't.  What we as suffering is a fault of our electoral system.

Circa 50% never do. The electorate rejected PR not that long ago. While either of the big two think they can get a majority at a GE under the FPTP system PR is never going to see the light of day. Only the Lib Dem’s regularly shout about it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 12:14:28
Circa 50% never do. The electorate rejected PR not that long ago. While either of the big two think they can get a majority at a GE under the FPTP system PR is never going to see the light of day. Only the Lib Dem’s regularly shout about it.

None of which invalidates my point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 13:29:42
None of which invalidates my point.

TBH I didn’t read it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 14:23:01
Quote from: Robinz
 Do you really want a minority government.
Trust me when I say that you would be better off with Johnson as PM than a Liberal Green
Labour MMP style of government.
.

conversely while they sold their soul, the lib dem coalition with the Tory party stopped a lot of damage and kept them in check.

I'll give it a go with Labour


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 14:31:54
This having 100 backers so BJ can run again. I take it he has to prove he actually has 100. Do the names get published or something?

Just the sort of thing he’d lie about.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 15:45:19
This having 100 backers so BJ can run again. I take it he has to prove he actually has 100. Do the names get published or something?

Just the sort of thing he’d lie about.

Not made public, only the proposer and seconders are a matter of public record. Then a vote of MPs on Monday administered by the 1922 committee, so they need to be 'real' votes then - of course some MPs may vote privately for a different candidate to their public statements, but can't imagine it'll be hugely different.

I still don't think he's making 100, but it'll be close.

Sunak's strategy is clearly to get so many public nominations from MP that Boris doesn't even officially stand for fear of an embarrassing loss. It's notable that he hasn't officially said he's standing yet, and I think he'll do a 'this is not the time' type speech if he's not getting on the ballot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 15:48:44
Has Penny got more than 30 votes yet! and the question I have was why Sunak wasn't elected over Truss when they had their chance to elect him🤔


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 15:51:21
Has Penny got more than 30 votes yet! and the question I have was why Sunak wasn't elected over Truss when they had their chance to elect him🤔

Because the Sunak/Truss vote was by Tory members rather than MPs. This method of deciding who is going to be PM is different.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 15:56:04
Because the Sunak/Truss vote was by Tory members rather than MPs. This method of deciding who is going to be PM is different.

I thought the final say is decided by the Tory members online next week once 3 has been whittled down to 2


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 16:04:04
I thought the final say is decided by the Tory members online next week once 3 has been whittled down to 2

Ah you are right Jimmy, for some reason I thought the final vote was by MPs!

That case, in answer to your previous query as to why Truss was voted over Sunak, fuck knows!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 16:07:25
Ah you are right Jimmy, for some reason I thought the final vote was by MPs!

That case, in answer to your previous query as to why Truss was voted over Sunak, fuck knows!!

Everything with the current Tory party is a mystery Bob😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 16:10:34
Everything with the current Tory party is a mystery Bob😀

Can't argue with that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 16:22:29
This having 100 backers so BJ can run again. I take it he has to prove he actually has 100. Do the names get published or something?

Just the sort of thing he’d lie about.

A politician lying? Perish the thought.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 16:23:32
Ah you are right Jimmy, for some reason I thought the final vote was by MPs!

That case, in answer to your previous query as to why Truss was voted over Sunak, fuck knows!!

Tory party members preferred a white lady over a brown man. Not a massive surprise imo.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 16:32:13
It could happen again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 16:59:18
penny M isn't close. The danger is she supports Johnson and picks up all of his votes.

I detest the lot of them. Sunak clearly the last bad for the country, but he's brown so fucked if it goes to the party members


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 17:12:07
Another scenario is Borris wins the members digital vote and only has the support of a third of MP's which may force their hand into a general election which they know they will lose.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 17:36:01
it doesn't matter, if he gets to 100 MP  and wins members vote he is PM.

And the Tory party will try to put on a united front, but will remain divided behind the scenes


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 17:44:31
I agree with what you are saying but not so sure his fellow MP's will back him even if it means a general election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 19:44:06
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/23/boris-johnson-says-he-will-not-stand-in-tory-leadership-contest

Told you he didn't have the numbers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 19:44:32
All over, BJ pulls out. Sunak next pm


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 19:44:54
BJ decides not to run. Guess that opens the door for Sunak now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 20:22:48
There's no excuses now Sunak has to get it right as the Tory's won't have anyone else left to blame.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 20:28:57
thank fuck that mop headed cunt is gone.

ok, sunak is a wanker, but even so it's the last bad option


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Boy About Town on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 20:29:57
Sunak is a disaster. So is this country of late.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 20:30:18
thank fuck that mop headed cunt is gone.

ok, sunak is a wanker, but even so it's the last bad option

Agreed!! Not often you use bad language Batch😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 21:17:11
Zawahi has made himself look a right tit today



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 21:54:54
Zawahi has made himself look a right tit today


Thought he did quite well as vaccine minister, but has been completely out of his depth in everything else he has done!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, October 23, 2022, 21:58:05
Quote from: Jimmy QuitMoaning
Agreed!! Not often you use bad language Batch😀

not sure if that's sarcasm or if you don't know me very well!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Monday, October 24, 2022, 07:32:25
not sure if that's sarcasm or if you don't know me very well!

Not sarcasm but don't recall you swearing very often!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Monday, October 24, 2022, 07:44:13
Father Batch Hackett.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, October 24, 2022, 07:49:04
Father Batch Hackett.

Feck off


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, October 24, 2022, 09:22:49
The salty tears from the Boris shagging party membership is glorious. 

Tomlinson is getting some right pelters on Twitter for saying "time to back Sunak".

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Monday, October 24, 2022, 09:25:41
Tomlinson & Buckland....how lucky we are to have those two in Swindon!  I wonder what shit Mogg will come out with later🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, October 24, 2022, 12:40:01
Rishi it is. First Hindu PM on Diwali is nice coincidence, I suppose.

Hopefully politics gets significantly more boring for a while.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, October 24, 2022, 12:40:52
Its happened. Mordaunt has dropped out.

Let the in party membership bickering commence against the back stabber/brown skinned one*!

*delete as appropriate LL ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Monday, October 24, 2022, 13:48:46
As I mentioned when I compared Liz Truss to a peanut (unfairly to peanuts, I apologise again) I’m not hugely itk when it comes to British politics. I Have nothing against Sunak, I think he has a bit of gravitas, and I’m sure he is a huge upgrade on Truss. Some stability now please. I’ve got a sneaky feeling that Rishi as PM and Hunt as Chancellor is a far from appalling combination


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, October 24, 2022, 14:05:28
Its happened. Mordaunt has dropped out.

Let the in party membership bickering commence against the back stabber/brown skinned one*!

*delete as appropriate LL ;)

Let’s see, ennie, meenie, minnie, mo.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, October 24, 2022, 14:09:10
On a positive note, how many women PM’s have the whiter than white saintly Luvie Labour Party had? And they’re second in the race to appoint a non white PM too. Please do let me know how the infighting within the Labour Party goes when they invariably take the keys to No.10.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, October 24, 2022, 14:36:37
Quote from: Legends-Lounge
Let’s see, ennie, meenie, minnie, mo.

🤣🤣🤣 very good :clap:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, October 24, 2022, 14:37:32
Quote from: Legends-Lounge
Please do let me know how the infighting within the Labour Party goes when they invariably take the keys to No.10.

you don't have to wait, just follow Rachel_Swindon on Twitter (no offence Shaw)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, October 24, 2022, 14:50:36
you don't have to wait, just follow Rachel_Swindon on Twitter (no offence Shaw)

I’d rather pull my own fingernails out thanks. I don’t do Twitter and who is Rachel?

Edit: social media full stop.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, October 24, 2022, 17:05:02
Quote from: Legends-Lounge
and who is Rachel?

.

prominent part of the lefty Corbyn crew who despise Starmer. A good example of Labour in fighting between idealism and electability.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, October 25, 2022, 07:08:04
I'm a broken record on this, I know.  Both Labour and the Tories are uneasy coalitions.  In both cases, far too broad.  There is no way that ERG/Libertarian and One Nation wings of the Tory party will ever co-exist happily; and likewise, the Corbynite and Centrist wings of Labour.

Reason these uneasy coalitions are necessary = FPTP, which punishes parties that split into smaller groupings.  Increased internal in-fighting is just one of prices we pay for failing to adopt a proportional voting system.  Starmer and Corbyn should not have to co-exist in the same political body.  And neither should Ken Clarke and Suella Braverman.  It's a farce.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Tuesday, October 25, 2022, 08:48:22
So we're saddled with guy that couldn't beat Truss! Amazing times


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, October 25, 2022, 09:59:29
So we're saddled with guy that couldn't beat Truss! Amazing times

That and we are facing financial turmoil. £4.9billion on his watch.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/government-rishi-sunak-fraud-squad-covid-loan-scam-b996740.html

I do have some sympathy in that it was a tough time, and furlough had to be rolled out quickly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, October 25, 2022, 11:47:09
Rees mogg resigned as minister

happy days


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, October 25, 2022, 12:51:05
And Buckland offski too...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, October 25, 2022, 12:54:00
And Buckland offski too...

 :D :D :D :D :D



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, October 25, 2022, 15:39:56
Suella Braverman reappointed home secretary 6 days after resigning for breaching national security protocols...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Tuesday, October 25, 2022, 15:54:04
Suella Braverman reappointed home secretary 6 days after resigning for breaching national security protocols...

Jesus wept


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, October 25, 2022, 17:18:15
indeed, "integrity" rishi?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Tuesday, October 25, 2022, 17:21:59
On a positive note, how many women PM’s have the whiter than white saintly Luvie Labour Party had? And they’re second in the race to appoint a non white PM too. Please do let me know how the infighting within the Labour Party goes when they invariably take the keys to No.10.

I find it not a little ironic that the prominent mps from visible ethnic minorities that have come to the fore in the Tory leadership in recent years are ALL such anti-woke, down with affirmative action/ positive discrimination, I pulled myself up by my own bootstraps types, when pretty much all of them came into parliament on the back of Cameron's priority list of Tory candidates designed to provide exactly the sort of positive discrimination they claim to oppose. I think Truss came in via the same route.

When Labour had all women shortlists (they don't anymore because the gender balance in the PLP is reasonable currently) they were slagged off for it. Cameron got slaughtered by the media for the priority list. But the same people that did the slagging are now swanning around claiming their party is a lesson to all in racial equality whilst conveniently forgetting how they got there.

And let's not pretend that sticking a handful of Old Etonians and  Old Wykamists with African or Asian heritage into top jobs makes their party any more representative of the British population.





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Tuesday, October 25, 2022, 17:28:06
On a funnier note I see Paul Mullins doesn't can't Rishi and his pals much!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Tuesday, October 25, 2022, 19:18:21
Rishi is a safe pair of hands. Cunt was chancellor. Rewriting history yet again


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Wednesday, October 26, 2022, 10:13:00
Mini budget put back until November 17th.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Wednesday, October 26, 2022, 10:21:47
Mini budget put back until November 17th.

Good


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Wednesday, October 26, 2022, 10:23:32
Good

Hopefully it will give the government more time to access things thoroughly and to make the right decisions for the country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Tuesday, November 1, 2022, 12:19:40
Matt Hancock chancing his arm in ‘Im a celebrity, get me out of here’


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, November 1, 2022, 12:24:20
Well, every other celeb will be breathing a sigh of relief as it's quite clear who will be doing every bushtucker challenge from now until kingdom come.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, November 1, 2022, 12:49:26
he's been suspended by the party for doing it partly while parliament is sitting


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Tuesday, November 1, 2022, 14:40:31
I'll remember him as the prick wearing the pink tie sounds like he's having a mid life crisis.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, November 1, 2022, 14:47:23
Well, every other celeb will be breathing a sigh of relief as it's quite clear who will be doing every bushtucker challenge from now until kingdom come.

Dunno about that, Moyles is on it too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Tuesday, November 1, 2022, 14:50:03
I hate the way the media rewrite the political history as dictated by the Tories.

Wasn't Brexit meant to be us taking back control including our borders? Yet currently it's the highest ever "invasion"

Then saying we will sort out this mess. Its your fucking mess, you've been in power 12 fucking years


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Tuesday, November 1, 2022, 14:54:02
Meanwhile France are laughing all the way to the bank🤣

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/07/21/uk-to-pay-france-62-7-million-to-curb-channel-migration


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 1, 2022, 15:26:26
I hate the way the media rewrite the political history as dictated by the Tories.

Wasn't Brexit meant to be us taking back control including our borders? Yet currently it's the highest ever "invasion"


Despite all the hand wringing, 1930's Reichstag cosplay in parliament media wailing etc we are nowhere near the highest levels which were, I think, c.2002-2003.  Its also worth noting that despite the protestations/promises of 2016 the numbers crossing in boats have gone up since then, but looking at it the problem seems to be less numbers and more processing which is an entirely self inflected problem.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FgZUnUuXgAAUo8t?format=jpg&name=small)

The boat problem is mainly down to the fact that we won't allow anyone to apply for asylum unless they are physically on UK soil and despite France repeatedly offering for their to be a processing centre on their side of the channel our government have repeatedly refused that.

Long and short all this deflective fuss is a tacit admission of failure from the government. If they didn’t want to end up sending asylum seekers to four star hotels they probably should have built more processing capacity, not flounced out of the Dublin Protocol, worked more closely with the French, not spunked a fortune on what is presently considered an unlawful agreement with Rwanda and developed a better strategy.

Last night was all about dog whistling to the far right and the launch of the ERG project Save Suella, noting all the ERG names lining up to agree with her rhetoric and jostling to be evermore hardline, it was a massive big set of 'V's' in the face of Sunak making it clear that if she goes he loses the far right of the party, whilst there is a clamour to suggest that a guy driving 130 odd miles to fling some IED's at a processing centre then top himself is perfectly normal in modern Britain and nothing to remotely worry about!

We are a funny old bunch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, November 16, 2022, 09:12:16
So Trump is back and will run for the Republican candidate for 2024. Someone I work with who is working in London at the moment from Chicago is a staunch Democrat but made 2 interesting points when we were discussing it yesterday. She said;

Out of DeSantis and Trump, she would rather have Trump and that the Democrats have to get a better candidate than Biden to run against the Republicans. I saw Michelle Obama was thinking about it, that would be interesting for sure, Trump v Obama.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 16, 2022, 09:55:20
So Trump is back and will run for the Republican candidate for 2024. Someone I work with who is working in London at the moment from Chicago is a staunch Democrat but made 2 interesting points when we were discussing it yesterday. She said;

Out of DeSantis and Trump, she would rather have Trump and that the Democrats have to get a better candidate than Biden to run against the Republicans. I saw Michelle Obama was thinking about it, that would be interesting for sure, Trump v Obama.

I can't see Biden running again at his age, albeit worth noting he is only 3 years older than Trump (something which republicans and Trump fan boys choose to rather ignore). If the democrat nomination comes down to a Harris v. Obama battle that could be interesting.

Also worth bearing in mind, is there any guarantee that Trump will get the Republican nomination versus DeSantis, that's assuming he doesn't get indicted for something that stops him running/serving in the meantime?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, November 16, 2022, 10:07:24
I can't see Biden running again at his age, albeit worth noting he is only 3 years older than Trump (something which republicans and Trump fan boys choose to rather ignore). If the democrat nomination comes down to a Harris v. Obama battle that could be interesting.

Also worth bearing in mind, is there any guarantee that Trump will get the Republican nomination versus DeSantis, that's assuming he doesn't get indicted for something that stops him running/serving in the meantime?

The age thing is interesting, surely it's time for a younger more progressive bunch of candidates rather than these old men that America keep seeming to put forward. There is only 3 years between them but there does seem a wider age gap. 'Sleepy' Joe does have a habit of falling asleep and getting lost on stage whereas Trump seems to have much more energy about him - if you ignore his ludicrous dad dancing on stage!

There are some hurdles Trump will have to cross, it would be quite amusing if he doesn't get the nomination, would love to see him publicly throw his toys out of the pram.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, November 16, 2022, 10:16:34
Raab wants to be investigated/clear his name

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63647341


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, November 16, 2022, 10:20:14
There is only 3 years between them but there does seem a wider age gap. 'Sleepy' Joe does have a habit of falling asleep and getting lost on stage whereas Trump seems to have much more energy about him - if you ignore his ludicrous dad dancing on stage!

Really? I am far from a fan of Biden and he can be a bit dopey*, but don't forget Trump was equally adept at doing strange things and talking total bollocks.

Even Bannon when he was working for Trump believed Trump was suffering from early stage dementia and that there was a real possibility he would be removed from office by the 25th amendment, where the cabinet could vote that the president was no longer mentally capable of carrying out his duties.

I agree new blood probably needed, albeit I imagine the Dems will be hoping its Trump they are facing.

*Also worth bearing in mind we recently had a Prime Minister in office who struggled to find her way off a stage and out of a room with a single door... and she was younger than me!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, November 16, 2022, 10:28:18
Really? I am far from a fan of Biden and he can be a bit dopey*, but don't forget Trump was equally adept at doing strange things and talking total bollocks.

Even Bannon when he was working for Trump believed Trump was suffering from early stage dementia and that there was a real possibility he would be removed from office by the 25th amendment, where the cabinet could vote that the president was no longer mentally capable of carrying out his duties.

I agree new blood probably needed, albeit I imagine the Dems will be hoping its Trump they are facing.

*Also worth bearing in mind we recently had a Prime Minister in office who struggled to find her way off a stage and out of a room with a single door... and she was younger than me!!

It's probably a perception Horlock. To me, Biden seems like the shuffly old grandad in his slippers and whilst Trump definitely isn't the peak of fitness, comes across as not quite being that level just yet and shows a bit more energy. It's probably a total front purely driven by adrenelin and as soon as he goes off stage probably falls asleep on a recliner.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, November 16, 2022, 10:50:33
An energetic nutjob or a sleepy sane person.

What a choice.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, November 16, 2022, 10:58:32
The age of US political leaders is properly mad.

Biden is 79, Trump is 76, Pelosi (speaker of the house) is 82, McConnell (Republican leader in the senate) is 80, Schumer (Democrat leader of the house) is 71. Kamala Harris, the absolute spring chicken in this field, is 58.

For comparison, John Major (who left power here 25 years ago) is 79. Tony Blair (who left power 15 years ago) is 69, younger than any of the above bar Harris. Rishi Sunak is 42!

I'm all for experience but they do seem to take it astonishingly far.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, November 16, 2022, 12:55:13
If Trump wins the Primaries, which is likely, I think the Democrats should take the opportunity to put up a younger, relatively inoffensive candidate to get a full reset.  Trump should lose on his own at the National level.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ibelieveinmrreeves on Wednesday, November 16, 2022, 20:00:24
The age of US political leaders is properly mad.

Biden is 79, Trump is 76, Pelosi (speaker of the house) is 82, McConnell (Republican leader in the senate) is 80, Schumer (Democrat leader of the house) is 71. Kamala Harris, the absolute spring chicken in this field, is 58.

For comparison, John Major (who left power here 25 years ago) is 79. Tony Blair (who left power 15 years ago) is 69, younger than any of the above bar Harris. Rishi Sunak is 42!

I'm all for experience but they do seem to take it astonishingly far.

It's all a bit late-USSR isn't it? Just need someone hooked up to a dialysis machine now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 08:35:57
I may be a simple space Hyper-Chicken, but I can't see how allowing energy bills to rise another 24% is an inflation-reduction measure.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 09:30:10
I may be a simple space Hyper-Chicken, but I can't see how allowing energy bills to rise another 24% is an inflation-reduction measure.

That's going to be offset by letting nurses take a real-time wages cut.

As with all things political one should just follow the money and specifically how much the government and plethora of RW think tanks in Tufton Street have benefited from fossil fuel companies.

Much as with the immigration 'crisis' this could b fairly easily solved by pretty simple government action, the question is why they won't take said action?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 11:19:11
Lots of fiddling with thresholds and allowances to bring more into higher tax rate bands - probably more saleable to the public than actual obvious tax rises, but the net effect is broadly the same.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 11:28:48
@nemo

" and also, we didn't break our election manifesto"

well, technically correct. squeeezy squeeeze


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 11:30:00
@nemo

" and also, we didn't break our election manifesto"

well, technically correct. squeeezy squeeeze

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/909/991/48c.jpg)

"Will every young person leave school with the skills they would gain in Japan?"

Compulsory Japanese for all!

Health, Social Care & Education seem to be doing okay so far, which suggests everything else is  about to get a proper shoeing


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 13:47:01
The age of US political leaders is properly mad.

Biden is 79, Trump is 76, Pelosi (speaker of the house) is 82, McConnell (Republican leader in the senate) is 80, Schumer (Democrat leader of the house) is 71. Kamala Harris, the absolute spring chicken in this field, is 58.

For comparison, John Major (who left power here 25 years ago) is 79. Tony Blair (who left power 15 years ago) is 69, younger than any of the above bar Harris. Rishi Sunak is 42!

I'm all for experience but they do seem to take it astonishingly far.

Biden and John Major being the same age really puts it in perspective. Jesus.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 14:09:07

"Will every young person leave school with the skills they would gain in Japan?"

Compulsory Japanese for all!

Quite!

Plus, the schools 2bn increase in spending (over 2 years) ...Isn't most of that accounted for pay rises which the Government made schools fund out their budgets?

Add in inflation...and.....

Japanese lessons cancelled. That's right, I'm not turning Japanese, I think I'm not turning Japanese
I really think so


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 14:14:18
Quite!

Plus, the schools 2bn increase in spending (over 2 years) ...Isn't most of that accounted for pay rises which the Government made schools fund out their budgets?

Add in inflation...and.....


And the energy prices hikes, I see Martin Lewis was noting that the process for next Aprils increases starts today and it was being projected at another 45% hike this morning, although I think I read in all the guff about the budget that the cap is going to be limited again?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 15:32:07
I think I read in all the guff about the budget that the cap is going to be limited again?

I think they said 3000 (average) apposed to 2500 current capped cap/.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 15:46:30
Remember, the cap is not an absolute value.  It is a cap on charge per KWH that means the "average" bill would top out at that level.  If someone uses more energy, their bill can and will exceed that number in pounds.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 15:50:18
So, how close to the cap are most people’s bills on here?

Luckily so far, haven’t had to use the central heating yet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 15:56:52
Remember, the cap is not an absolute value.  It is a cap on charge per KWH that means the "average" bill would top out at that level.  If someone uses more energy, their bill can and will exceed that number in pounds.

That's why I put "(average)" :P

So, how close to the cap are most people’s bills on here?

Miles over based on direct debit (about £250 a month). And we are still on a lower fixed rate until Feb, so then it'll be miles and miles over.

Bloody pets are costing a fortune to heat (bearded dragon, chinese water dragon, leopard gecko, crested gecko)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 16:01:48
Jeez!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 16:10:01
That's why I put "(average)" :P

Miles over based on direct debit (about £250 a month). And we are still on a lower fixed rate until Feb, so then it'll be miles and miles over.

Bloody pets are costing a fortune to heat (bearded dragon, chinese water dragon, leopard gecko, crested gecko)

Our electric is a bit over average, understandable as both I and the missus work from home, her in the house, me in the office in the garden (but fucking miles below what some of our friends seem to be paying albeit he works in IT and has shedloads of computer stuff going 24 hours a day). We seem to be below average on gas but that's 'cos I'm a tight bastard and won't let then have the heating on. Think our DD is c.£280 a month now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 16:17:15
Jeez!

Quite.

Work from home + pets + kids + 4 beds

On the plus side the mortgage isn't too bad. 4ish years to go and fixed rate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 16:27:52
It’s very difficult to itemise over here. Central heating is oil and I’ll put in about €1000 per winter. There’s no gas on the island unless you use bottled and electricity bills also contain charges for council tax and TV licence. We also have a fairly large solar panel system which generates about €1000 per year in electric we put back into the grid.

Even so it’s noticeable how much more we’re paying.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 16:30:48
Hmmm, my DD each month is £150 and we have nearly £1,000 in credit. We've not put the GCH on very much yet but I suspect the DD will have to go up to about £200 to cover the monthly cost.

Just the wife and I in our house and I am pretty careful with energy usage given the wild cost increases recently. We spend most of our time in the one room which has a woodburner. However then going to other rooms is a wake up as they are absolutely freezing!  

We're with Octopus so DM if you want to switch as I think I get some money to refer people! ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 16:43:12
The right wing mouthpieces on Twitter are going bat crap crazy about this extract from the OBR budget notes, was it mentioned in the speech?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FhxcfbFagAQvrbI?format=jpg&name=900x900)

Apparently c.12p/L. c 12 p a litre. Good thing overall for the environment and breaking the pattern of it always being deferred, but its going to be quite the shock if true and if so interesting that they didn't mention it.

Still trying to dig out whether its a new thing or just that the duty rises that has been being deferred for 11 years are finally not going to be deferred in March 2023?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 16:47:21
Quite.

Work from home + pets + kids + 4 beds

On the plus side the mortgage isn't too bad. 4ish years to go and fixed rate.

How's the job security Batch as you mentioned a few months ago that it may be under threat around Christmas time so fingers crossed the threat has gone away.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 16:53:46
oh no still shit. Just waiting to be axed. Not a formality but fairly likely.

meh. can do fuck all about it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 17:20:05
oh no still shit. Just waiting to be axed. Not a formality but fairly likely.

meh. can do fuck all about it

Sorry to hear that more stress you don't need.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 17, 2022, 17:31:29
I'll stress when it happens.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, November 25, 2022, 12:40:36
What a strange, strange country.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63754702


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, November 25, 2022, 12:50:21
What a strange, strange country man.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63754702

FIFY, FWIW it may split the Trump vote as he seems to be mainly aiming at the same audience?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Friday, November 25, 2022, 15:55:04
I seriously doubt that Kanye's attempt will get him anywhere near being an actual candidate.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, November 25, 2022, 18:09:37
may as well just shred the money or, you know, do something more worthwhile


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: flammableBen on Saturday, November 26, 2022, 01:40:58
Kanye is a bit of a genius though. He's like the Andy King of hip hop.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, November 26, 2022, 06:32:25
but could he hip-hop on a cold Tuesday night in Grimsby?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Broadbents Tackle on Saturday, November 26, 2022, 08:37:06
He used to smoke a blunt on the touchline while watching the game. The man was the fifth element of hip hop.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Saturday, November 26, 2022, 09:46:29
Kanye is a bit of a genius though. He's like the Andy King of hip hop.

He's definitely following in the footsteps of quite a lot of genuises, in that he's losing his mind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Saturday, November 26, 2022, 09:47:22
He used to smoke a blunt on the touchline while watching the game. The man was the fifth element of hip hop.
:D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, January 30, 2023, 15:40:29
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/george-santos-holocaust-speech-twitter-latest-b2271958.html?page=2

I cannot work out if this is just a truly absurd public exposing of an utter fraud, or some sort of bizarre "joke" from an organisation to see how far they can push it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Monday, January 30, 2023, 17:28:44
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/george-santos-holocaust-speech-twitter-latest-b2271958.html?page=2

I cannot work out if this is just a truly absurd public exposing of an utter fraud, or some sort of bizarre "joke" from an organisation to see how far they can push it.

How are you still surprised by the sorts of nutters and hucksters that are able to get elected on the GOP ticket. After Trump it's really anything goes, any tin foil hat wearing loon or criminal can get themselves selected as long as they toe the "Trump was robbed: the election was stolen" line.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, January 30, 2023, 17:51:53
I get that, but this one is absurd.  It's like a gradual long drawn out joke on the GOP - finding photos, videos and a contact in Brazil who remembers his Drag Queen period, current demons of the GOP.

The boring reality will be them finding out he was financed by someone from Russia though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Monday, January 30, 2023, 18:43:30
I get that, but this one is absurd.  It's like a gradual long drawn out joke on the GOP - finding photos, videos and a contact in Brazil who remembers his Drag Queen period, current demons of the GOP.

The boring reality will be them finding out he was financed by someone from Russia though.

It's when he gets re-elected despite all this being in the public domain that it'll be a concern. And at the moment in the US that's not out of the question.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, February 15, 2023, 09:40:28
Nicola Sturgeon resigning. SNP are no doubt scrabbling to find another fish-surnamed individual to take the helm as the pattern seems to be working for them.

Had a bit of trouble recently but seems a long way from being forced out by her party/public opinion (particularly compared to Sunak!) so can only imagine she's just had enough of the whole charade.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, February 15, 2023, 09:52:36
so can only imagine she's just had enough of the whole charade.

Seems so. Wonder if there is a behind the scenes backlash against  her wanting to make the next election a one policy campaign (indyref2).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, February 21, 2023, 13:15:57
All going well up here in the great white north at the moment as the most competent First Minister candidate takes a one way trip down the Tim Farron highway. Get ready to see lots more of Humza Yusuf on your news down south, he's a shoe in at this point unless he decides to say it's immoral to deep fry a Mars bar or something.

In a way, it's a symptom of the absolute hegemony the SNP have had up here- there's simply no way Kate Forbes should be in a progressive party, but she joined it because it was that or eternal opposition. One party being dominant is not good for democracy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, February 28, 2023, 13:34:07
We’ll,that’s let the cat out of the bag

‘ Rishi Sunak - "Northern Ireland is in the unbelievably special position... in the entire world... in having privileged access to the UK home market... but also the European Union single market... nobody else has that... only you guys" in Northern Ireland. ’

Begs a certain question


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, February 28, 2023, 13:38:07
Does that mean N Ireland will be able to get the labour in to harvest crops for the rest of the UK now?  Potatoes all around.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, February 28, 2023, 13:38:15
ooops


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, February 28, 2023, 13:41:27
Isn't the current prescribed medicine for inflation and food shortages that you should all be eating more Turnips now?  I presume NI is good for root veg, so maybe this is a compromise to get the Turnip crop ready for the surge in demand.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Tuesday, February 28, 2023, 14:44:26
Just to clarify something, you do all realise that the "bad weather" in Morocco and Spain is all utter bollocks?
Even if there was bad weather, which there hasn't been ( I live nearer Morocco than Almeria, seasonally been no worse than any other year) all the veg and fruit is kept under plastic.

Google sea of plastic if you don't believe me. Its quite a sight when you are driving through that part of the world. Spanish supermarkets have no shortages whatsoever and the whole thing is a huge dollop of shite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, February 28, 2023, 15:05:49
Half the problem is foreign lorry drivers don’t want to get stuck for hours due to Brexit red tape delivering to the UK.

We’re swimming in tomatoes here - plus every other fruit/veg you can name. It’s bollocks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, February 28, 2023, 15:15:26
We’re swimming in tomatoes here

When in Greece


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donaldslovehild on Tuesday, February 28, 2023, 15:53:46
I live in Spain from September to April and it is complete bollocks that the weather here has caused crops to fail. Supermarkets brimming with fresh produce as are the independent greengrocers. Deflect, deny, lie and s**t on manifesto,  can't think why we left.

 :whoosh: :whoosh: :whoosh:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Tuesday, February 28, 2023, 15:59:51
Half the problem is foreign lorry drivers don’t want to get stuck for hours due to Brexit red tape delivering to the UK.

We’re swimming in tomatoes here - plus every other fruit/veg you can name. It’s bollocks.

Can’t be true, because we all know that Brexit isn’t going to cause us any issues and all that extra money is going to sort out the NHS and we can all see how well that is going.

We all know the old saying, “Lies, Damn Lies & Statistics”, well with this government it’s been modified to “Lies, Lies and even bigger fucking lies”


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Wednesday, March 1, 2023, 08:02:03
Isasbel Oakshott is a bit of a character isn't she?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, March 1, 2023, 08:16:43
Matt Hancock. What a cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 1, 2023, 09:48:28
Isasbel Oakshott is a bit of a character isn't she?

Where to begin, more red flags than the Town end in a Wembley final!

Matt Hancock. What a cunt.

Indeed, but looking at the source, her history and her close associates the first question that springs to mind is who is she working for this time, and why now?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Wednesday, March 1, 2023, 10:50:50
Don't worry gang, Hancock's spokesperson confirmed:
"These stolen messages have been doctored to create a false story that Matt rejected clinical advice on care home testing. This is flat wrong,"

PHEW


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, March 1, 2023, 10:58:00
Of course they have :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Bloke is a proverbial bullshitter


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 1, 2023, 11:28:10
I'm sure the fact that Oakshott's other half is the leader of The Reform Party who will be trying to take seats off Tories at the forthcoming locals, is all entirely coincidental.  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Thursday, March 2, 2023, 23:08:11
Sue Gray appointed Labour chief of staff. That’ll piss the tory cunts off.

Daily Mail already saying ‘partygate was a labour stitch up’

:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 3, 2023, 10:12:19
Sue Gray appointed Labour chief of staff. That’ll piss the tory cunts off.

Daily Mail already saying ‘partygate was a labour stitch up’

:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

There are a lot of people scrabbling about and going full on tin foil hat on social media, its brilliant!

Worth noting re Partygate that there was a police inquiry and Johnson himself set up the inquiry and appointed Sue Gray!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Friday, March 3, 2023, 12:08:25
I think pretty much every LotO has appointed at least one high profile Senior Civil to their team since Blair back in the mid 90s. Cameron had a couple, Labour's had Bob Kerslake, previously head of the civil service in their camp for years.  This isn't some kind of weird exceptional event at all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, March 3, 2023, 13:21:26
Boris Johnson might be a liar
https://news.sky.com/story/covid-rule-breaches-at-downing-st-parties-should-have-been-obvious-to-johnson-mp-committee-12824339

In other news, water is wet.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 3, 2023, 13:36:31
Boris Johnson might be a liar
https://news.sky.com/story/covid-rule-breaches-at-downing-st-parties-should-have-been-obvious-to-johnson-mp-committee-12824339

In other news, water is wet.

But he wouldn't have had the parties unless that pesky Sue Gray had put him up to it, or something like that.

Note - Other conspiracy theories are available on request!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 11:38:11
Without going into the bones of the policy/deliberate deflection technique, who signs off on this fucking stuff.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqpaynxX0AEDqPS?format=jpg&name=small)

What is this supposed to be saying, that we have a modern slavery system in the UK that asylum seekers will not be allowed to partake in or that if you are a victim of slavery we won't help you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 11:44:51
Yeah, it reads like you won't be lucky enough to be enslaved by our nice modern system. In order to know what it means, you'd have to be quite familiar with UK legislation on the topic, which is... not a widespread knowledge I shouldn't have imagined.

It's all a bit grim really isn't it? I just don't really understand why they think they can successfully run a sub-UKIP insurgent campaign when they've literally been the government for 12 years. It'll absolutely repel the middle class Tories and I can't imagine the ones who this sort of thing is designed for truly believe that Rishi Sunak believes a word of it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 12:08:06
I agree with the sentiments that people shouldn’t be let into the country illegally.  I don’t people dying at sea after taking ridiculous risks - I don’t want people prospering from their desperation/stupidity either. I also believe it is a complex problem with no one solution. There has to be a deterrent, but there also has to be a bit about fixing problems in countries where people are migrating from - Remember all the complaints about fund raising from Red Nose Day etc being spent overseas. Well, this is why it’s done! Share the wealth, because if you don’t, then those without access to it, naturally want to come and get it.

I think the current PM is more ‘thoughtful’ than the jingoistic, bumbling, narcissist and the dense automaton that he replaced. Interesting to see if he really can make progress on his 5 pledges.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 12:57:02
^ this


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 13:12:53
You likely all live where you do today thanks to a combination of free/open borders throughout history or forced migration through conquests.  Today's situation is far more controlled - I speak as someone who has followed the law to gain benefit from immigration but also has a personal viewpoint (extreme one I accept) that starts with the idea that freedom of movement to some degree or other should be the starting point.  The luck of birth should not give one person more rights than another to a planet that we do not OWN.   The change in climate, regardless of what may have caused it, is going to upend the benefits of many countries as we know them.  Should we force people to remain in locations that are no longer prosperous?  The whole concept of Nation confuses me to be honest.

I'd rather we identify the worlds problems and work to find solutions than cling to some few hundred year old notion of land ownership.  On the one hand we've seen remarkable progress for human kind, on the other we are still a very animalistic species.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 13:17:48
The system is fucked, but a huge part of this is either down to sheer incompetence or a deliberate fuck up to further the normal lines adopted by populist governments of all colours.

The government continue to peddle stuff about asylum seekers being able to follow safe and legal routes to claim asylum in the UK, whilst making it nigh impossible for anyone to actually apply as you cannot apply in foreign embassies and you cannot apply online so the only way you can apply is on the ground in the UK which you can only reach by illegal means, which basically totally fuels the boat method they claim to be trying to stop.

The main problem within the country is that it takes fecking months/years to process any applicants 'cos the system is grossly (or possibly deliberately) under funded leading to applicants being housed in hotels etc which is pissing people off, however as Starmer pointed out at PMQ's earlier, a few months back only 4% of people who arrived on small boats had been processed, and when Starmer raised this Sunak agreed and said it was unacceptable, now its less than 1% have been processed.

You then add into the equation that there are presently around 18,000 people who have been determined as being ineligible for asylum awaiting return (really not helped by us flouncing off from the Dublin Agreement and I note the new laws proposed seem to make no mention of any return agreements with countries), and how many were returned last year....  21. They will no doubt try to peddle the whole 'lefty lawyer' bullshit, but lawyers don't create nor change the law, challenges fail because the government have breached the law so its the Home Office/government consistently being found to be acting unlawfully.

The fact that this all kicked off again after all the shite in the news last week (partygate/Hancocks WhatsApp/the Windsor Agreement not really being what Brexiteers were hoping for) just looks a bit suspicious to me as they have been using migration as a handy dog whistle for years, and it all stinks of this (albeit for balance I would change the first two words to 'all').

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqnVuzAXwAAsyLw?format=jpg&name=small)

But fucking Gary Lineker eh....  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 13:19:25
You likely all live where you do today thanks to a combination of free/open borders throughout history or forced migration through conquests.  Today's situation is far more controlled - I speak as someone who has followed the law to gain benefit from immigration but also has a personal viewpoint (extreme one I accept) that starts with the idea that freedom of movement to some degree or other should be the starting point.  The luck of birth should not give one person more rights than another to a planet that we do not OWN.   The change in climate, regardless of what may have caused it, is going to upend the benefits of many countries as we know them.  Should we force people to remain in locations that are no longer prosperous?  The whole concept of Nation confuses me to be honest.

I'd rather we identify the worlds problems and work to find solutions than cling to some few hundred year old notion of land ownership.  On the one hand we've seen remarkable progress for human kind, on the other we are still a very animalistic species.
But your freedom of movement, and mine, had to be qualified. I had to pass tests - mainly financial - even before Brexit. I presume you getting your Green Card was even more intense. The problem I have with the present situation is that 90% of those seeking asylum are unaccompanied young men - very few wives and children and the majority are Albanian which is hardly on a par with war torn countries in Asia.

Even if there was a fast track asylum system the majority would still want to enter the country illegally because they know they’d get refused using the legal route.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 13:27:00
As Aud said....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-63473022


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 13:31:17
But your freedom of movement, and mine, had to be qualified. I had to pass tests - mainly financial - even before Brexit. I presume you getting your Green Card was even more intense. The problem I have with the present situation is that 90% of those seeking asylum are unaccompanied young men - very few wives and children and the majority are Albanian which is hardly on a par with war torn countries in Asia.

Even if there was a fast track asylum system the majority would still want to enter the country illegally because they know they’d get refused using the legal route.

This is where it all gets confused and conjecture becomes fact (much like when we try to sign a player or appoint a manager!  ;) ) the Governments own figures don't relate to these often quoted figures about origins of those arriving. https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01403/

This on Sky the other day also rather holed the governments 'we can't do anything about people smuggling as they are based in France and those pesky Frenchies won't help us'  narrative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogHZIkXEd5Q&t=9s



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 13:34:30
Even if there was a fast track asylum system the majority would still want to enter the country illegally because they know they’d get refused using the legal route.

So how is telling them not to come because they are not going to get asylum going to stop that?

I've not had chance to look at the detail beyond "stop the boats" and "not coming in if you enter the country illegally".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 13:38:53
Nobody ever won an election on a platform of more bureaucrats and administrators, but it would certainly make a real impact here - less than 1% of people who've arrived this way have had their claims processed. Speed up that process and you can get rid of anyone who isn't eligible, which from the sound of the government's rhetoric would be almost everyone.

They seem to be more interested in making headlines than making progress here though, for some reason.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 13:42:48
But your freedom of movement, and mine, had to be qualified. I had to pass tests - mainly financial - even before Brexit. I presume you getting your Green Card was even more intense. The problem I have with the present situation is that 90% of those seeking asylum are unaccompanied young men - very few wives and children and the majority are Albanian which is hardly on a par with war torn countries in Asia.

Even if there was a fast track asylum system the majority would still want to enter the country illegally because they know they’d get refused using the legal route.

There is little other way to claim "Asylum".  My point, and again, I accept ti is on the extreme end, is that who are we to say they shouldn't just move anyway?  I accept the laws I live within and work with them, doesn't mean I like them.  I am not judging anyone else who tries to seek out a better life for themselves.

The real problem that the "person on the street" is enraged about is actually not even the Asylum seekers anyway.  It's the people they see around them that look different or sound different - the legal immigrants, the ones who come in much greater number every year than the ones they actually think are the problem.  The ones on boats are a tiny fraction - in fact, imagine their journey, fucking kudos to them for making it, more than I could ever muster in effort for a better life.  If they get a job I was going for, they probably deserve it.

People have a problem with legal immigration but fight the easier battle.  It's all those naughty ones on rubber dinghies.  The person speaking Bulgarian, or Romanian, or Urdu in the Town Centre they hear are more than likely an immigrant through valid methods.

I just believe we think about it all wrong.  If we started with the basic concept of people being able to go where they please and then layer in the rules and processes around a degree of personal ownership, local government for the good of society, free enterprise etc.  Then I think we'd come to very different solutions.  You don't get there thinking about this somehow being My Land though.  Wherever I find myself living is simply a temporary resting place until my carbon finds it's way back into the ground.

The current system is a bad one, in my opinion, and creates many bad outcomes as a result - protectionism, Nationalism, crime (trafficking), death - so just a few.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 13:45:30
Nobody ever won an election on a platform of more bureaucrats and administrators, but it would certainly make a real impact here - less than 1% of people who've arrived this way have had their claims processed. Speed up that process and you can get rid of anyone who isn't eligible, which from the sound of the government's rhetoric would be almost everyone.

They seem to be more interested in making headlines than making progress here though, for some reason.

You've said what I have said much more elegantly and succinctly.

From that linked piece re Albanians.... 'In 2022, 85% of Albanians who arrived by small boats submitted asylum applications. Only 68 of them (0.7%) have received an initial decision and none were granted refugee status or another type of leave to remain. In general, 53% of claims by Albanians are accepted. Most are by women and children'

I can see this going three ways;

“We’ll implement this plan as soon as we can pass it through parliament”. (They'll blame Labour for blocking it)

It gets through parliament and gets bogged down in legal challenges. (They'll  blame courts and lefty lawyers for blocking it)

It gets caught up in the ECHR's (They'll  blame EU and lefty lawyers for blocking it)

Anyone would think there was an election in the post.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 13:47:40
I also accept having any sort of nuanced debate about Immigration is almost impossible.  It always devolves into a fight about why "they" should be allowed.

Maybe we send all the babies to the shitiest place in the world and then everyone has the freedom to make their way to wherever they want to end up.  True survival of the fittest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 15:39:47
There is little other way to claim "Asylum".  My point, and again, I accept ti is on the extreme end, is that who are we to say they shouldn't just move anyway?  I accept the laws I live within and work with them, doesn't mean I like them.  I am not judging anyone else who tries to seek out a better life for themselves.

The real problem that the "person on the street" is enraged about is actually not even the Asylum seekers anyway.  It's the people they see around them that look different or sound different - the legal immigrants, the ones who come in much greater number every year than the ones they actually think are the problem.  The ones on boats are a tiny fraction - in fact, imagine their journey, fucking kudos to them for making it, more than I could ever muster in effort for a better life.  If they get a job I was going for, they probably deserve it.

People have a problem with legal immigration but fight the easier battle.  It's all those naughty ones on rubber dinghies.  The person speaking Bulgarian, or Romanian, or Urdu in the Town Centre they hear are more than likely an immigrant through valid methods.

I just believe we think about it all wrong.  If we started with the basic concept of people being able to go where they please and then layer in the rules and processes around a degree of personal ownership, local government for the good of society, free enterprise etc.  Then I think we'd come to very different solutions.  You don't get there thinking about this somehow being My Land though.  Wherever I find myself living is simply a temporary resting place until my carbon finds it's way back into the ground.

The current system is a bad one, in my opinion, and creates many bad outcomes as a result - protectionism, Nationalism, crime (trafficking), death - so just a few.
No system is perfect. But what you suggest is that we have no rules and hope that everyone behaves in a civilised manner. Unfortunately, civilised people are only civilised by being forced to follow rules. Or perhaps we all go down the Lord of the Flies route!







Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 15:51:30
No, I'm suggesting we come up with an entire new set of rules - start over.  I fully understand that human nature is one of stupidity, greed, anger etc.  Hence why I reference us being quite animalistic still.  I also think we've progressed far enough to think about it in a completely different manner.  Immigration as we now understand it is a fairly new concept in our journey on this planet.  Mostly defined by wars over the past few centuries and the introduction of Countries (a fairly short amount of time in the grand scheme of things).

Why do you have any right to live in England but no right to live in France - because of the current rules, no inherent right to OWN said plot of the earth.

Pushing this to an extreme to make a point - what if England was ravaged by Drought to an extent where living there became pretty unbearable, crops failing, water supply insufficient to support the population as a whole, crime out of control as people fight to survive, unaffordable but for a few energy as demand outstrips supply, and so on.  Should you be forced to remain there and not seek a place to live on the planet more conducive to human habitation?  just because your parents gave birth to you there.  now flip it - what right do people living in perfect, or near perfect, human habitation conditions have to prevent others from sharing in such delights?  Again, just because your parents, or there parents were born there?

Now, why my idea is extreme - people will rightly say, but I worked hard for what I have, why should someone else be granted access to it?  Our Society was born of the hard work of many, why should others just join in?  It's tough, the answers are not easy.  Certainly a free for all just generates more strife (it's where we came from and why you are where you are right now probably).  Somewhere between both extremes exists a framework that could work - it will not happen now though, no appetite to solve it.  160k a year people making a sometimes tragic journey to our shores is easy to point a finger at - blame them for shit, when they are just doing what a small proportion of any society would do and always has done, strive for better and explore where it may be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 16:10:57
I agree. Your idea is indeed extreme, idealistic and unfortunately unworkable on so many levels.





Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 16:16:18
Pushing this to an extreme to make a point - what if England was ravaged by Drought to an extent where living there became pretty unbearable, crops failing, water supply insufficient to support the population as a whole, crime out of control as people fight to survive, unaffordable but for a few energy as demand outstrips supply, and so on.  Should you be forced to remain there and not seek a place to live on the planet more conducive to human habitation?  just because your parents gave birth to you there.  now flip it - what right do people living in perfect, or near perfect, human habitation conditions have to prevent others from sharing in such delights?  Again, just because your parents, or there parents were born there?


I've got a mate who works in climate resilience for GMCA, one thing that is included within their modelling is the projection that if things continue as they are then  lands around the equator and a distance to its north and south will become basically uninhabitable meaning that countries outside these zones are going to have to plan for rather large incoming migrations in the future as habitable space reduces.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 16:32:04
I agree. Your idea is indeed extreme, idealistic and unfortunately unworkable on so many levels.





I never said everyone else was perfect ;-)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, March 8, 2023, 19:01:16
'Divide and conquer'

A story evident within our species and continually true.

In idealisms that I share much closely to RobT, instead of pointing fingers at the wrong people and being an over privileged 'I'm alright Jack, eff you' attitude. Humanity could do better to ya know, actually give a shit about their fellow human...even if they look/speak/eat different to you.

There's a beauty in interacting with people from different parts of the world, a beauty to be admired - things to learn from others, impart some wisdom from. Too many that seemingly have an issue, often tend to be those who've never set foot outside of their hometown, let alone their own country.

Immigration is a generated issue due to those before. Those who decided to draws lines upon the earth and lay claim to those once borderless places as if they now were deemed the rightful owners. Only going after resource rich lands and raping them until they became barren or no longer needed. We took the people with us and worked them to beyond the bone, in order to maintain the status quo of 'I, landowner. You, slave.' This process still very much is alive today. Except we often do it where it isn't in our own backyard.

We - our ancestors, generated conditions that forced the desperate hand to those who had their places of birth ravaged and left with nothing. Why then should it really be an issue for people who are displaced coming to our and other countries? Or just want and have, like many on here, purely and simply a better life with better conditions. Ya know, just to live a relatively happy, healthy and normal? Why can't they be as entitled as many millions of other people in the world?

If we weren't still raping and bombing/attacking the shite out of once gloriously stunning places and far away lands, maybe those people would be able to prosper in their place of birth but even then, so what if they still wanted to come here. In most cases, a lot of these people actually wanted to stay in their own country or return; people must realise the good old Saint George style patriotism isn't exclusive. Most of these people love their own country just as much but can't remain there due to actions and consequences that our and other nations have historically done to them and continue to do so. All in the name of retaining power. Cunts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Friday, March 10, 2023, 18:04:49
It's only biased if it's not inline with the government's latest distraction.

Like or loathe Lineker, he's right to stand his ground in my opinion.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64920557


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, March 10, 2023, 19:26:28
Wright & Shearer have pulled out of MOTD in support of Lineker. It will be interesting to see if others follow suit leaving the programme in jeopardy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Friday, March 10, 2023, 19:55:03
The thing is when you work for a public service broadcaster you cannot express these views: whether they are anti or pro the government of the day.

A public service broadcaster has to be impartial


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Friday, March 10, 2023, 19:55:53
Wright & Shearer have pulled out of MOTD in support of Lineker. It will be interesting to see if others follow suit leaving the programme in jeopardy.
Hope so then maybe we just get to watch the football


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, March 10, 2023, 19:57:55
Hope so then maybe we just get to watch the football

Probably end up with Jermaine Jenas🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, March 10, 2023, 20:05:02
Who's a little tory shit ex footballer.

Frank Lampard's big break I reckon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, March 10, 2023, 20:07:05
I think the program needs refreshing with new presenters laura woods would be fine😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Friday, March 10, 2023, 20:12:10
Honestly though punditry has become,for me, the biggest bore in football. Highly paid "failed" or "never been" managers who just relate what you've already seen,among little chummy so called jokes, which all seems to last longer than the actual game footage.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Friday, March 10, 2023, 20:15:53
It's only biased if it's not inline with the government's latest distraction.

Like or loathe Lineker, he's right to stand his ground in my opinion.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64920557
No, he's not. As others have said, its okay for him to have that opinion, but its not okay for him to use his position at the BBC to express his personal opinions and try to influence others.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, March 10, 2023, 20:16:10
I'm with you pundits bore me and can't remember the last time I watched MOTD and if I'm watching a live game I turn it on as the game starts.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 10, 2023, 20:18:00
The thing is when you work for a public service broadcaster you cannot express these views: whether they are anti or pro the government of the day.

A public service broadcaster has to be impartial
I don't disagree with the sentiment, but when you have had Alan Sugar wading into Mick Lynch about the rail strikes without any sanction, Andrew Neil fronting a lot of political coverage whilst tweeting divisive stuff from The Spectator without sanction it looks a bit odd.

Fwiw it would be brill, as the option's seem to be diminishing rapidly, if they put on a full female panel tomorrow just to piss a few more people off.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Friday, March 10, 2023, 20:26:45
I don't disagree with the sentiment, but when you have had Alan Sugar wading into Mick Lynch about the rail strikes without any sanction, Andrew Neil fronting a lot of political coverage whilst tweeting divisive stuff from The Spectator without sanction it looks a bit odd.

Fwiw it would be brill, as the option's seem to be diminishing rapidly, if they put on a full female panel tomorrow just to piss a few more people off.

It should apply to everyone if they work for a public service broadcaster- no bias either for or against the govt of the day


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, March 10, 2023, 20:44:10
No, he's not. As others have said, its okay for him to have that opinion, but its not okay for him to use his position at the BBC to express his personal opinions and try to influence others.


You're right, it would be unreasonable for him to say any of this stuff on MOTD, or in any formal BBC capacity. Which he hasn't.

Extending that to not having any public political opinions in their personal life would make every BBC employee equivalent to Royalty which seems a bit unsustainable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, March 10, 2023, 20:45:35
Who's a little tory shit ex footballer.

Frank Lampard's big break I reckon.

Eni Aluko is a Tory, I'm sure the angry folk on Twitter would welcome her in on loan...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 10, 2023, 21:05:26
Eni Aluko is a Tory, I'm sure the angry folk on Twitter would welcome her in on loan...
Perhaps with Sol Campbell.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Friday, March 10, 2023, 21:14:16
No, he's not. As others have said, its okay for him to have that opinion, but its not okay for him to use his position at the BBC to express his personal opinions and try to influence others.


As Horlock eluded to, you can find examples of people working at the BBC berating Mick Lynch, or Corbyn or any number of things, not a peep from anyone in power or the BBC.

Lineker talks about the government's treatment of immigrants and we've got various politicians wading in and getting all billy pompous bollocks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Friday, March 10, 2023, 21:24:45
No, he's not. As others have said, its okay for him to have that opinion, but its not okay for him to use his position at the BBC to express his personal opinions and try to influence others.


He’s not using his position at the BBC. He’s highlighting what an absolute bunch of cunts this “government” is, to people who voluntarily choose to follow him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Friday, March 10, 2023, 21:28:53
He’s not using his position at the BBC. He’s highlighting what an absolute bunch of cunts this “government” is, to people who voluntarily choose to follow him.

He works for a public service broadcaster - therefore he is not allowed to express anti government or pro government views.
I really don’t see how this is so difficult to grasp.

I would say exactly the same if he said pro govt views


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Friday, March 10, 2023, 21:32:07
Unless he says somethig on air, it really boils down to what the rules are on people who work for the BBC, doesn't it?

I'd be surprised if they're not allowed to publicly state a political opinion ever even off air, because if that's the case Linkear would have been taken off MOTD a long time ago, along with numerous others.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Friday, March 10, 2023, 21:32:59
He works for a public service broadcaster - therefore he is not allowed to express anti government or pro government views.
I really don’t see how this is so difficult to grasp.

I would say exactly the same if he said pro govt views

Even off air?

He's said a shit ton of political stuff before. Why the up roar now?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, March 10, 2023, 21:41:07
He's freelance.  He works for loads of other people.  He can say what he wants if he's not saying it from a bbc twitter account.

Im freelance.  None of the companies I work for think it fit to censor me saying anything unless its directly about something in the company or one of the shows Im doing for them.  If I said - Im doing a show and said 'fuck me this band Im doing tonight are shite', then I would expect censure and deserve it.

Its a complete own goal from the BBC.  Senseless.  Just makes them look like they are running scared of the government and the right wing press.  Which they are.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 10, 2023, 21:43:07
Even off air?

He's said a shit ton of political stuff before. Why the up roar now?
Because its handily grabbing the headlines to stop people talking about the general shit show in the country and also successfully burying news of their cancelling of Attenborough's programme, again because it will upset the government and its supporters.

Some interesting stuff from Peston on the nuts and bolts of the dispute https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1634272812180426760


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Friday, March 10, 2023, 22:04:52
Because its handily grabbing the headlines to stop people talking about the general shit show in the country and also successfully burying news of their cancelling of Attenborough's programme, again because it will upset the government and its supporters.

Some interesting stuff from Peston on the nuts and bolts of the dispute https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1634272812180426760

Just the closing of that thread is more damning than anything Lineker's done. And with less repercussions. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Friday, March 10, 2023, 22:17:14
Fucking mess. Seems like the BBC are trying to work off the assumption that working for the BBC means you can't be political publicly, even though that isn't actually the case.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, March 10, 2023, 22:21:47
As said above never saw the uproar from the BBC for Alan Sugar or Andrew Neil having a rant


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Friday, March 10, 2023, 22:23:01
Fucking mess. Seems like the BBC are trying to work off the assumption that working for the BBC means you can't be political publicly critical of the government

Corrected for you.

This sums it up quite well for me.

https://twitter.com/SkyKaveh/status/1634288030658842641


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, March 10, 2023, 22:42:18
First time ive ever agreed with that guy!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, March 10, 2023, 22:46:14
Players in talks with the PFA over not giving interviews tomorrow!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: wokinghamred on Friday, March 10, 2023, 23:12:31
He's freelance.  He works for loads of other people.  He can say what he wants if he's not saying it from a bbc twitter account.

Im freelance.  None of the companies I work for think it fit to censor me saying anything unless its directly about something in the company or one of the shows Im doing for them.  If I said - Im doing a show and said 'fuck me this band Im doing tonight are shite', then I would expect censure and deserve it.

Its a complete own goal from the BBC.  Senseless.  Just makes them look like they are running scared of the government and the right wing press.  Which they are.
The BBC's impartiality policy and its social media guidelines apply to freelancers employed by the BBC as well as employees.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Friday, March 10, 2023, 23:37:11
No, he's not. As others have said, its okay for him to have that opinion, but its not okay for him to use his position at the BBC to express his personal opinions and try to influence others.


He hasn't. He's used his Twitter account. Gary Lineker was actually quite famous before he presented MoTD. He used to play football himself you know.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 00:04:14
Looks like pundit-free football tomorrow night.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 00:09:36
It all depends what his contract with the BBC says.

If it had a clause that restricts what you can say politically (one way or the other) on social media then he hasn’t a leg to stand on.

I can’t understand the love for him on here . He is earning £1.35m a year whilst some pensioners who’ve worked their whole lives can’t afford a TV licence which is paying his obscene wages.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 00:23:43
What has his wage got to do with whether we we like him or not? Or more to the point, is his opinion invalid because some resent his earnings?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 07:21:49
Here's a penny for your thoughts, I explained this situation to my girlfriend who is a Venezuelan refugee.

She said it's normal for the national broadcaster to stop anti government thinking people from broadcasting.

Didn't bat an eyelid


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 08:54:25
Here's a penny for your thoughts, I explained this situation to my girlfriend who is a Venezuelan refugee.

She said it's normal for the national broadcaster to stop anti government thinking people from broadcasting.

Didn't bat an eyelid

Yep, I suppose regime censorship  works both ways with extreme governments left and right but it's an ill wind and pundit free football will have me switching on in my droves
Total hypocrisy from the BBC however in my opinion , Fiona bloody Bruce is the most Tory biased presenter of all


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 09:55:52
If it is the "policy" of any government (left or right) to:

1. use hyperbolic language directed at vulnerable minorities (that here sees mobs gathering outside UK Travelodges in 2023, regardless of 1930s Germany) or

2. propose legislation knowing it has a better than even chance of breaking international law and treaty terms (see Russia etc)

then I'd kind of expect most of the world of international Sport to oppose such so-called "policy".



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 11:08:23
I agree with those who consider his comments to be unnecessarily offensive - he could have made the same point very differently, avoiding the nasty slur on the Home secretary as a person. It`s a shame BBC employees didn`t rush to the defence of Michael Vaughan subject to an appalling lack of due process.

An alternative view....and one I don`t expect will get any support of this forum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 11:20:38
I agree with those who consider his comments to be unnecessarily offensive - he could have made the same point very differently, avoiding the nasty slur on the Home secretary as a person. It`s a shame BBC employees didn`t rush to the defence of Michael Vaughan subject to an appalling lack of due process.

An alternative view....and one I don`t expect will get any support of this forum.

What specifically has he said that is a slur on Braverman? Quite possible I've missed something but all I can see if him describing a speech she gave as 'beyond awful' which whilst clearly criticism doesn't seem like it would be what you're referring to as a slur?

Michael Vaughan is an interesting parallel actually, but not for the reasons you suggest - he's put out a fair few political tweets over the years without ever being removed from BBC cricket coverage. The stuff he has actually been removed over has nothing to do with Twitter, and is a much longer conversation not for this thread.

Meanwhile, the BBC fallout seems to be snowballing, getting to the point where essentially all their sports coverage this weekend is going to have to be canned. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the decision, it's been appallingly handled and whoever is doing their PR needs a serious talking to!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 12:08:17
Fighting Talk was replaced by a podcast on Five Live.  Sports coverage also been replaced by a repeat of a podcast.

This is a volley from 40 yard into the top corner own goal from the BBC.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donaldslovehild on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 14:27:15
I agree with those who consider his comments to be unnecessarily offensive - he could have made the same point very differently, avoiding the nasty slur on the Home secretary as a person. It`s a shame BBC employees didn`t rush to the defence of Michael Vaughan subject to an appalling lack of due process.

An alternative view....and one I don`t expect will get any support of this forum.

Your Daily Mail perspective is duly noted.
A 'nasty slur' implies that the critic is a) aiming there opinion directly at the person and b) that the accusation/argument is untrue. Neither apply here. Your Michael Vaughan analogy is, also, completely spurious and the whole reason this debate is raging is down to the breathtaking double standards at the BBC. We should all be deeply concerned by creeping bias that has been allowed to infest the BBC, our brilliantly 'independent' broadcasting corporation is now little more than a 24 hour apologist for this rotten to the core regime.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 16:34:41
MOTD to be 20 minutes, no pundits or commentary as they dont have access to the world rights :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 16:35:24
MOTD to be 20 minutes, no pundits or commentary as they dont have access to the world rights :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

I want a refund on my TV licence😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 17:21:33
SdM set to leave Town end of the season and said to be announced as Head of PR for BBC...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pookemon on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 21:24:20
I never post on politics, but I've had ten pints so who gives a fuck.

At the end of the day if the post had been praising the home secretary or the policy, would he have been suspended?

My guess is that he wouldn't have been, nor would I be wasting time posting shit on here. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Stef Troll on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 22:45:28
MOTD to be 20 minutes, no pundits or commentary as they dont have access to the world rights :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

I thought tonight’s motd was better than the drivel which Linekar,  Ian Wright and co produce. Add commentary to the games and manager interview after the game and the bbc are onto a winner.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 23:11:19
I thought tonight’s motd was better than the drivel which Linekar,  Ian Wright and co produce. Add commentary to the games and manager interview after the game and the bbc are onto a winner.

I'd have left it exactly as it was tonight. Perfection for me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 23:13:18
I thought tonight’s motd was better than the drivel which Linekar,  Ian Wright and co produce. Add commentary to the games and manager interview after the game and the bbc are onto a winner.
Agree.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 23:30:09
Never thought I would say it but the programme was far better without the studio team


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Saturday, March 11, 2023, 23:33:14
I find a lot of football analysis is a complete waste of time and just stating the obvious.

It was a thought I had earlier listening to Fjortoft who manages to be insightful and make you think more about the tactics unfolding.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Sunday, March 12, 2023, 09:10:03
I find a lot of football analysis is a complete waste of time and just stating the obvious.

It was a thought I had earlier listening to Fjortoft who manages to be insightful and make you think more about the tactics unfolding.
This absolutely and Shearer is king of the bleeding obvious with Micah Richards the heir apparent


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, March 13, 2023, 10:22:16
I thought tonight’s motd was better than the drivel which Linekar,  Ian Wright and co produce. Add commentary to the games and manager interview after the game and the bbc are onto a winner.

Problem is will the BBC or whoever pay the big bucks the PL desire for the rights which are going to provide less than an hour of schedule filling each week, I imagine the filling and punditry is as much for scheduling purposes than for any suggestion that people like it.

I never post on politics, but I've had ten pints so who gives a fuck.

At the end of the day if the post had been praising the home secretary or the policy, would he have been suspended?

My guess is that he wouldn't have been, nor would I be wasting time posting shit on here. 

This is it, strangely Lineker didn't get binned for this tweet!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fq4FLlZWIAEeW5h?format=png&name=small)

The BBC are being played as prize pricks here, bearing in mind that a large part of the governments support overlaps with the 'defund the BBC' people this is just playing into their hands suggesting its a pointless lefty woke organisation that should be done away with, the government have, for once, played a blinder both filling the news with stuff that detracts from the shit show of the country (plus things like this have been lost in the noise https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/mar/10/david-attenborough-bbc-wild-isles-episode-rightwing-backlash-fears ) whilst getting the BBC to fuck itself over.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Thursday, March 30, 2023, 17:17:44
Steer Karma in Swindon today!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Thursday, March 30, 2023, 20:45:36
Steer Karma in Swindon today!

Steer Calmer surely? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Thursday, March 30, 2023, 20:49:55
Any TEF members there🤣

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qArrZsJijhs


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Thursday, March 30, 2023, 22:20:01
Any TEF members there🤣

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qArrZsJijhs

Anyone who trusts this man is a fool.

Didn’t agree with Corbyn but at least you knew where you stood- this bloke flip flops and changes his opinion like the weather


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, March 30, 2023, 22:39:42
Corbyn is pointless though. dead duck, toxic brand. finished.

Doesn't matter if he's right, straight up or anything else


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, March 31, 2023, 07:05:10
Trump 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, March 31, 2023, 07:51:07
Trump 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

He's in for a stormy time by the looks of things.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 31, 2023, 08:30:16
Anyone who trusts this man is a fool.

Didn’t agree with Corbyn but at least you knew where you stood- this bloke flip flops and changes his opinion like the weather

As could be said about literally any other politician, but this is why I suspect that we will probably continue with a Tory government after the next election.

As for knowing where one stood with Corbyn, correct, in opposition with literally no say in what's happening in the country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, March 31, 2023, 08:34:51
The problem we now have is there is no third party to join in the manifesto fun which will be starting over the coming months leaving a podium free on their live TV debates leaving us to choose between the bullshit we have now or the bullshit we could have🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, March 31, 2023, 10:16:52
Trump 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Mildly amusing that with all the blatantly illegal shit he did, they're trying to get him for campaign finance violations. All very "charging Capone with tax evasion" stuff.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Friday, March 31, 2023, 10:21:58
Corbyn is pointless though. dead duck, toxic brand. finished.

Doesn't matter if he's right, straight up or anything else

I don’t get it either, this desire to bring back a leader that suffered a catastrophic loss to probably the worst PM in British history.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, March 31, 2023, 10:22:39
I don’t get it either, this desire to bring back a leader that suffered a catastrophic loss to probably the worst PM in British history.

How soon we forget Liz Truss.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Friday, March 31, 2023, 10:28:14
How soon we forget Liz Truss.

To be fair you could have blinked & missed her entire occupancy, did she last long enough to get a monthly bill in number 10.

But your right, if she’d managed to last longer she could’ve out-shitted the shitty one


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Friday, March 31, 2023, 10:30:17
How soon we forget Liz Truss.
Who? :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, March 31, 2023, 10:32:38
Not as easy to forget Hancock😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, March 31, 2023, 11:35:39
Quote from: Posh Red
I don’t get it either, this desire to bring back a leader that suffered a catastrophic loss to probably the worst PM in British history.

some seem happy with an ideology and no chance of ever being able to implement it


others are deluded.

bit ruthless and divisive to kick him out, but they are doing what needs done to get in


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, March 31, 2023, 11:42:30
Everyone is skint even the ice rink is being forced to close to save money

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/23425131.swindon-link-centre-ice-rink-close-months-due-energy-bills/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, April 3, 2023, 07:27:45
This is the sort of bare-faced lying that convinces many people not to believe anything a politician says.

"4,000 people a year die because of toxic air"

Rushanara Ali MP on the need to implement the Mayor's Ultra Low Emissions Zone across London.

The actual number, over a 20 year period, is 1.

Fucking 1!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Monday, April 3, 2023, 07:32:40
This is the sort of bare-faced lying that convinces many people not to believe anything a politician says.

"4,000 people a year die because of toxic air"

Rushanara Ali MP on the need to implement the Mayor's Ultra Low Emissions Zone across London.

The actual number, over a 20 year period, is 1.

Fucking 1!

Adds credence to the old saying, ‘how do you know when a politician is lying’? When they open their mouths and speak of course. That is ALL of them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, April 3, 2023, 07:52:34
This is the sort of bare-faced lying that convinces many people not to believe anything a politician says.

"4,000 people a year die because of toxic air"

Rushanara Ali MP on the need to implement the Mayor's Ultra Low Emissions Zone across London.

The actual number, over a 20 year period, is 1.

Fucking 1!

Source for that? I'd find it very hard to believe it was 1, some areas of London have fucking awful air quality, and if you've already got asthma or something then you're going to really struggle for quality of life.

I suspect there are stats that are overstating the problem from some (by including anyone dying with a respiratory illness) and then someone underplaying it by only including specific illnesses. I rather imagine 1 fits into the latter category...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Monday, April 3, 2023, 08:10:34
The Beeb did an examination of the claims https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64798395


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, April 3, 2023, 08:23:18
Source for that? I'd find it very hard to believe it was 1, some areas of London have fucking awful air quality, and if you've already got asthma or something then you're going to really struggle for quality of life.

I suspect there are stats that are overstating the problem from some (by including anyone dying with a respiratory illness) and then someone underplaying it by only including specific illnesses. I rather imagine 1 fits into the latter category...

I assume it realtes to the one person who had it recorded specifically on their death certificate, rather ignoring all those with underlying respiratory problesm who are royally fucked up by it.

Its just another front in the war being waged by the right wing libertarians who resist anything that introduces control and the erosion of rights (see also the fuss about people being able to - god forbid - walk to the shops, unless it agrees with their world view, so its fine to severely erode the freedom peoples passports give them and require them to now need ID for voting, but you will nebver take our pollution spouting cars so I can take little Johnny the 500m to school!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, April 3, 2023, 08:33:40
I can kind of see that "the reduced life expectancy for people in the affected areas is equivalent to around 4000 lifetimes" is not really the same thing as "4000 direct deaths" and that's a bit of erm... marketing, so to speak. But it doesn't really feel like it should be a controversial thing to try not have people living in absolute abject polluted shiteholes. But hey, it's 2023 and literally everything becomes a culture war issue.

The 15 minute cities thing is my absolute favourite - imagine being furious at services you need being more conveniently located for you, glorious nonsense.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 08:18:12

Jed gets political.

https://www.stratford-herald.com/news/frustration-makes-stratford-town-chairman-jed-mccrory-stan-9302074/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 08:22:30
Jed gets political.

https://www.stratford-herald.com/news/frustration-makes-stratford-town-chairman-jed-mccrory-stan-9302074/


Thanks for sharing that, I needed a laugh!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 09:23:45
Remember when he wanted stand as an MP after leaving here :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, April 21, 2023, 09:08:26
Raab resigns


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 21, 2023, 09:17:20
Raab resigns

Getting his side of the story out there first....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, April 21, 2023, 09:36:44
Raab resigns

The time honoured political journey of furiously denying that you have any intention of resigning for 24 hours before resigning. A lovely nod to tradition in a changing world.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, April 21, 2023, 13:20:53
Dowden now Deputy PM.

Christ


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Friday, April 21, 2023, 13:31:51
Dowden now Deputy PM.

Christ
Rather scary isn’t it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, April 28, 2023, 09:20:29
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65338490

Bye bye Richard Sharp


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Friday, April 28, 2023, 10:23:31
Bloody BBC left wing bias!🙂


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 4, 2023, 12:43:29
Seems to be going swimmingly, https://bylinetimes.com/2023/05/04/voter-suppression-watch-voters-turned-away-without-photo-id-across-england-amid-local-elections-concerns/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, May 4, 2023, 15:55:02
Seems to be going swimmingly, https://bylinetimes.com/2023/05/04/voter-suppression-watch-voters-turned-away-without-photo-id-across-england-amid-local-elections-concerns/

All for it 100%


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DMC on Thursday, May 4, 2023, 17:45:26
Of course you are


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, May 4, 2023, 17:48:16
Of course you are

Why wouldn’t I be?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, May 4, 2023, 17:52:52
That’s all for tonight, I’m going out to vote. With my ID 😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, May 4, 2023, 17:54:46
That’s all for tonight, I’m going out to vote. With my ID 😁

It's photo ID only though, right?  There are probably plenty of eligible voters who have never had the need to apply for a Driving License or Passport.  Seems odd to be that strict when you can vote without photo ID from home.  I have no issue with a person needing something to vote, but didn't that already exist by virtue of needing a Polling Card in the past?  What problem was it fixing?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Thursday, May 4, 2023, 17:59:16
It's photo ID only though, right?  There are probably plenty of eligible voters who have never had the need to apply for a Driving License or Passport.  Seems odd to be that strict when you can vote without photo ID from home.  I have no issue with a person needing something to vote, but didn't that already exist by virtue of needing a Polling Card in the past?  What problem was it fixing?

Electoral fraud I believe.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, May 4, 2023, 18:17:00
Big issue is it?

You learn something new everyday:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-operative_Party


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 4, 2023, 19:16:42
Big issue is it?

You learn something new everyday:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-operative_Party
1386 alleged cases in last 5 years.... 9 convictions leading to 6 cautions being issued.

Big issue is actually potentially with postal voting systems but this does nothing to even consider addressing that....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Thursday, May 4, 2023, 19:43:22
3 Tory councillors outside our polling station. All smiles and “how are you?” As if their sickly fakery  means I can’t see past their wanton indifference to the populace


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, May 5, 2023, 07:40:50
1386 alleged cases in last 5 years.... 9 convictions leading to 6 cautions being issued.

Big issue is actually potentially with postal voting systems but this does nothing to even consider addressing that....

Fun fact: since 2019, there have been more Conservative MPs convicted of sex offences than there have been people convicted of voter fraud.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 5, 2023, 09:35:55
Fun fact: since 2019, there have been more Conservative MPs convicted of sex offences than there have been people convicted of voter fraud.

And considerably more people have been fined for illegally partying in No 10 Downing Street during the Covid lockdown than there have been people convicted of voter fraud.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, May 5, 2023, 09:46:54
I know the ID thing was talked about in the States where Voter Fraud is constantly peddled, (usually whenever the Republicans lose the election) our area didn't have a vote this time as our council has recently been adjusted and I can kind of see why ID might be needed, but reading about the small number of cases on here, and the issues that people are having with ID, it does seem somewhat pointless.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 5, 2023, 09:49:44
I know the ID thing was talked about in the States where Voter Fraud is constantly peddled, (usually whenever the Republicans lose the election) our area didn't have a vote this time as our council has recently been adjusted and I can kind of see why ID might be needed, but reading about the small number of cases on here, and the issues that people are having with ID, it does seem somewhat pointless.

Rather depends on what the point was.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, May 5, 2023, 09:53:09
Rather depends on what the point was.....

To alienate people that can't/don't have ID? I genuinely have no idea so I'm guessing and haven't done any research so I'm really shooting fish in a barrel. (not even sure if that's the right phrase either!)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Friday, May 5, 2023, 10:25:46
It’s the first step, the end goal is you have to be a Tory party member to vote 😉


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 5, 2023, 10:28:35
It’s the first step, the end goal is you have to be a Tory party member to vote 😉

Well, that was how we got the last two Prime Ministers. Didn't that go well!


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: MangoRed on Friday, May 5, 2023, 10:49:22
Fun fact: since 2019, there have been more Conservative MPs convicted of sex offences than there have been people convicted of voter fraud.

Rancid party, rancid people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 5, 2023, 12:02:50
The Tory party are getting destroyed in the locals so far.
Renard (SBC council leader) just lost his seat!

Good that we got the ground purchase in before mind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, May 5, 2023, 12:12:27
Terrorists blowing themselves up with their own suicide vests?

It seems that, despite the comparative leniency shown towards them in terms of I.D., it is elderly voters who have in practice failed to be accepted for voting at the Polling Stations. The ones more inclined towards the Tories and Brexit.

Next step may be for Labour to "even things up" and insist on photo I.D. from the elderly - as for everyone else.

Whoever believed that "taking back control" would be for the benefit of we plebs?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 5, 2023, 12:22:12
Terrorists blowing themselves up with their own suicide vests?

It seems that, despite the comparative leniency shown towards them in terms of I.D., it is elderly voters who have in practice failed to be accepted for voting at the Polling Stations. The ones more inclined towards the Tories and Brexit.

Next step may be for Labour to "even things up" and insist on photo I.D. from the elderly - as for everyone else.

Whoever believed that "taking back control" would be for the benefit of we plebs?



This is quite an interesting piece https://bylinetimes.com/2023/05/05/local-elections-rishi-sunak-falls-victim-to-his-own-war-on-woke/

For whatever reason they just seem to have totally dropped the ball and are concentrating their efforts on things that the vast majority of the public are not that bothered about whilst ignoring the shit that people are worried about.

Think these things are generally cyclical and 13 odd years seems to be becoming about as long as any party can stay in power. The fun will start if Labour win next year and will have at their fingertips all the parliamentary and scrutiny dodging mechanisms that the present government have managed to put in place, cue mighty wailing from the right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, May 5, 2023, 12:34:54
Looks like change is afoot for Swindon after nigh on 20 years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Friday, May 5, 2023, 12:38:48
Confirmed that Swindon is now Labour


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, May 5, 2023, 12:42:33
Mr smug David Renard won't be happy


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 5, 2023, 12:46:32
This is quite an interesting piece https://bylinetimes.com/2023/05/05/local-elections-rishi-sunak-falls-victim-to-his-own-war-on-woke/

For whatever reason they just seem to have totally dropped the ball and are concentrating their efforts on things that the vast majority of the public are not that bothered about whilst ignoring the shit that people are worried about.

Think these things are generally cyclical and 13 odd years seems to be becoming about as long as any party can stay in power. The fun will start if Labour win next year and will have at their fingertips all the parliamentary and scrutiny dodging mechanisms that the present government have managed to put in place, cue mighty wailing from the right.

There was a Tory rep on the news just now listing their priorities for government, and 'stop the boats' got a mention - as it often does these days.  I'd be really interested to know the % of people out there that this resonates with.  Leaving aside all the arguments around opening safe, legal routes so that no-one would need to cross in a dinghy - is this really high up on anyone's list during a cost of living crisis and a period in which public services are disintegrating before our eyes?

'Stop the boats' and 'war on woke' are the bastard children of Brexit.  They mean fuck all, but it's all that's left.  Get these people gone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 5, 2023, 13:00:48
Mr smug David Renard won't be happy

"They must be OK with what we are doing, they keep voting for us"

Also that twit Daniel Adams a couple of years ago "every time we have a vote, Labour lose seats"

(or similar)

Maybe, just maybe this is the beginning of the end for shitest Tory party ever. The start of a reset point


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, May 5, 2023, 13:14:04
"They must be OK with what we are doing, they keep voting for us"

Also that twit Daniel Adams a couple of years ago "every time we have a vote, Labour lose seats"

(or similar)

Maybe, just maybe this is the beginning of the end for shitest Tory party ever. The start of a reset point

Good post Batch, I bet local MP Justin Tomlinson will be crying as we speak😀


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Million Pound Man on Friday, May 5, 2023, 13:25:59
Bazil Solomon unseated, wonder if he'll defect back to Labour next time.  :sherlock: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, May 5, 2023, 13:26:04
Good post Batch, I bet local MP Justin Tomlinson will be crying as we speak😀

With a 30k plus majority Tomlinson can probably afford to remain quite smug.
Buckland on the other hand will be sweating big time, particularly as Labour look to have a very good candidate for Swindon South.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, May 5, 2023, 13:28:34
With a 30k plus majority Tomlinson can probably afford to remain quite smug.
Buckland on the other hand will be sweating big time, particularly as Labour look to have a very good candidate for Swindon South.

The rise and fall of Robert Buckland....he's had his time now that Borris is nowhere to be seen and like you say Tomlinson is fairly safe in North Swindon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 5, 2023, 14:04:41



SBC is now:

Labour 33 seats
Conservatives 22
Independent 1
Liberal Democrats  1


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, May 5, 2023, 14:11:45
Let's hope they vote for cheaper council tax next year!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, May 5, 2023, 14:12:55
A low bar but, imo, Robert Buckland didn't make for the worst Lord Chancellor of this century.

I don't understand STFC, so as an Out of Towner I'm sure I won't understand the local politics.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, May 5, 2023, 14:19:59
Let's hope they vote for cheaper council tax next year!

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 5, 2023, 14:34:03
A low bar but, imo, Robert Buckland didn't make for the worst Lord Chancellor of this century.

I don't understand STFC, so as an Out of Towner I'm sure I won't understand the local politics.

If I could only get rid of one of the Swindon MPs, Wonga Tomlinson would definitely be first out of the door. But the majorities are the wrong way round for that really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, May 5, 2023, 15:49:36
In the redrawn constituencies that were put forward last year, I think wichelstowe and Wroughton get thrown into a new ‘north Wiltshire’ seat at the next election - goes as far down as Marlborough.

I’d assume Buckland would take that if it came to it, and win quite comfortably



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Friday, May 5, 2023, 23:25:16
With a 30k plus majority
eh 16k innit?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Saturday, May 6, 2023, 09:43:38
eh 16k innit?

 :-[
Proper research prevents piss poor posting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 16, 2023, 08:28:36
I know the ID thing was talked about in the States where Voter Fraud is constantly peddled, (usually whenever the Republicans lose the election) our area didn't have a vote this time as our council has recently been adjusted and I can kind of see why ID might be needed, but reading about the small number of cases on here, and the issues that people are having with ID, it does seem somewhat pointless.

At least someone has come and out and said it! https://twitter.com/implausibleblog/status/1658122224136597504



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, June 9, 2023, 16:19:53
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1667184705601519622

10:41 Nadine Dorries says that the last thing she'd want to do is step down and cause a by-election

15:45 Nadine Dorries resigns, causing a by-election

Life comes at you fast.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 9, 2023, 16:35:23
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1667184705601519622

10:41 Nadine Dorries says that the last thing she'd want to do is step down and cause a by-election

15:45 Nadine Dorries resigns, causing a by-election

Life comes at you fast.
1700ish she doesn't get elevated to the Lords...

Genuinely no idea what is going on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, June 9, 2023, 16:36:02
I thought it was Parody but apparently Boris has given knighthoods to Rees-Mogg, Fabricant and a damehood to Priti Patel. How can anyone in this absolute fart factory of a government deserve anything but custard pies in the face is beyind me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, June 9, 2023, 16:38:21
Agreed. Fucking joke.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, June 9, 2023, 16:39:17
The clocks ticking🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, June 9, 2023, 16:48:34
This Tory government looking after their own being self serving cunts. What a shock.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, June 9, 2023, 16:51:18
This Tory government looking after their own being self serving cunts. What a shock.

Definitely what's needed in a cost of living crisis.

To be fair there are very few likeable politicians these days but the crowd that are currently governing I find despicable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, June 9, 2023, 17:19:07
Taking the piss out of us


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, June 9, 2023, 17:26:37
If you take the position that they’re all cunts you’ll never be disappointed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, June 9, 2023, 17:30:51
Very true


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, June 9, 2023, 19:15:01
Boris stands down as an MP with immediate effect


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, June 9, 2023, 19:20:55
Boris stands down as an MP with immediate effect

After receiving the findings of whether he misled MP’s over partygate.

Consider me shocked that he lied to them too!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, June 9, 2023, 19:21:08
He will probably make more money doing after dinner speeches gloating about his achievements.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, June 9, 2023, 19:23:14
Makes all this money and still needs a loan.

Got the pay for all the illegitimate kids i guess


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, June 9, 2023, 19:26:55
After receiving the findings of whether he misled MP’s over partygate.

Consider me shocked that he lied to them too!

Surely a coincidence?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, June 9, 2023, 19:28:07
Absolutely :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, June 9, 2023, 19:30:28
Leaving to spend more time with one or more of his families.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, June 9, 2023, 19:34:59
he's going to go for the 2028 comeback isn't he?

genuine question: could he stand again in this by-election? I don't mean will he, but could he?

he's moaning about an undemocratic force out, let's make it democratic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, June 9, 2023, 19:35:59
He could, David Davies did it years ago, resigned to cause a by election that he then won as a publicity stunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, June 9, 2023, 20:56:09
cheers


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, June 10, 2023, 05:53:04

genuine question: could he stand again in this by-election? I don't mean will he, but could he?

he's moaning about an undemocratic force out, let's make it democratic.

He could but looking at polling in his seat would be unlikely to win, however, the by-election in the seat that Dorries just vacated would be a completely different matter.....

Also worth bearing in mind that the committee that wrote this report that led to his resignation, the one that the mail is losing its mind about as being some sort of leftist conspiracy, has a Tory majority on it....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Saturday, June 10, 2023, 08:21:31
Looking back, not unexpectedly he has pretty much singlehandedly destroyed the Conservative Party. I do not think Trump will return and I don't think BJ will return, however hevtries to engineer it. The voters will not allow it. The silent majority does actually speak in these situations.  Not only has he been found out, but he has refused to sit on the naughty step, and we don't like that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Matchworn Shirts on Saturday, June 10, 2023, 10:10:39
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTyPJz7DwxI


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Saturday, June 10, 2023, 17:27:39
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTyPJz7DwxI

Nice work spacey, wish he still posted here


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Sunday, June 11, 2023, 11:46:44
Nice work spacey, wish he still posted here
He is a goddamn genius!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, June 11, 2023, 14:12:36
Nicola Sturgeon arrested.

Keir Starmer must have found an old lamp somewhere with how his week is going.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Thursday, June 15, 2023, 10:19:10
So, Boris was a lying cunt. Who knew.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Thursday, June 15, 2023, 10:41:23
So, Boris was a lying cunt. Who knew.

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Thursday, June 15, 2023, 10:41:44
And it turns out there were more ‘events’ discovered that werent investigated due to time constraints!

Such a prick and took the nation for fools


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 15, 2023, 10:47:49
And it turns out there were more ‘events’ discovered that werent investigated due to time constraints!

Such a prick and took the nation for fools
Such a prick and took the nation for fools

Reading and looking at the voxpops on the telly and online it appears that quite a lot of the population quite like being taken for fools, he will be back with or without the Conservative  Party,, it seems that in many supporters eyes he seems to be bigger and more important than the party.

FWIW I still suspect we may end up with the Tories as the biggest party in parliament post next election, albeit can't see them with a majority and cannot see who would work with them in coalition, unless Farage (and or Johnson) get their acts together.?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: fuzzy on Thursday, June 15, 2023, 11:09:05
Boris Johnson and Donald Trump- both cut from the same cloth?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Thursday, June 15, 2023, 11:23:40
Boris Johnson and Donald Trump- both cut from the same cloth?

the cloth that's been touched by the turtle's head of Dolos.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, June 15, 2023, 11:25:28
Boris Johnson and Donald Trump- both cut from the same cloth?

Auto correct?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, June 15, 2023, 15:14:13
pie

https://youtu.be/H5znEigYYCw


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: fuzzy on Thursday, June 15, 2023, 16:34:44
Boris Johnson and Donald Trump- both cut from the same cloth?
Auto correct?

 :clap:



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, June 16, 2023, 13:06:31
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65930008

laughable really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, June 16, 2023, 13:11:01
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65930008

laughable really.

Astute move, the one place you won't get the sack from for making stuff up!  ;) ;D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Friday, June 16, 2023, 17:55:27
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65930008

laughable really.
Didn't he get the sack from his last newspaper columnist role for lying?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, June 16, 2023, 18:25:51
Quote from: adje
Didn't he get the sack from his last newspaper columnist role for lying?

yeah The Times, he made up some quotes..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Friday, June 16, 2023, 18:37:34
yeah The Times, he made up some quotes..
Thought so. Made several bloody "careers"out of falsehoods!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, June 16, 2023, 18:40:21
Seven kids he must be a right stud between the sheets🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, June 16, 2023, 18:55:37
Bet the Mail were delighted with a first column about diet pills. Value for money! Be quite entertaining if he goes full Adrian Chiles.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Friday, June 16, 2023, 21:22:45
Apparently as an ex minister he has to request permission to take other employment within two years, but basically informed the appropriate committee 30 mins before so he has again broken the ministerial code, I wonder whose fault it will be this time?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Moss on Saturday, June 17, 2023, 07:30:23
And it turns out there were more ‘events’ discovered that werent investigated due to time constraints!

Such a prick and took the nation for fools

Only the fucktards that voted for him. He's always been an odious cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: molepar on Saturday, June 17, 2023, 07:50:40
Seven kids he must be a right stud between the sheets🤣
No one knows (apart from maybe him) how many he has, but I saw something (think it was on sky news) that speculated that he probably had at least 8!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, June 17, 2023, 08:17:18
No one knows (apart from maybe him) how many he has, but I saw something (think it was on sky news) that speculated that he probably had at least 8!

How's that possible he's the definition of a slob🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, June 17, 2023, 14:22:01
And it turns out there were more ‘events’ discovered that werent investigated due to time constraints!

Such a prick and took the nation for fools
The question that I would ask and no one else seemed to,is "why did he put himself and his colleagues at risk in all these .events"? And the answer that I come up with is, he knew the "rules" were absolute bollocks and lockdown was unscientific bullshit. And that after,we are supposed to believe, he allegedly "nearly died" from covid


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, June 17, 2023, 14:23:25
Plus he didn't give a fuck!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, June 18, 2023, 15:38:11
Seems like they were having fun🤣

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-91CpX6pE4A


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Sunday, June 18, 2023, 16:57:23
Which proves to me the "rules" were a complete compliance excercise. Don't exactly look scared for their lives do they?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Sunday, June 18, 2023, 17:14:27
Makes me wonder why this has come out now. Distraction from something else?

It was all bollocks. Vaccination doesn’t prevent transmission. Why are excess deaths still so high?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, June 18, 2023, 17:24:20
Someone has always got some political scandal on the back burner to use.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, June 18, 2023, 17:26:19
Which proves to me the "rules" were a complete compliance excercise. Don't exactly look scared for their lives do they?

You can hear them squirming "Boris said it was ok"🤣


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Sunday, June 18, 2023, 19:40:45
Which proves to me the "rules" were a complete compliance excercise. Don't exactly look scared for their lives do they?

As every day passes the conspiracy theories prove right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, June 19, 2023, 08:23:36
Climate change is another one. Nobody is denying it’s happening but it’s not down to you and me driving a car and eating beef. It’s a natural occurrence of the Earth’s subtle shift in orbit according to NASA. But that gets no airtime.

Just like Covid it’s all about putting fear into the population to gain control.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, June 19, 2023, 08:34:05
I think you might just be straying into wishful thinking there Aud.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Monday, June 19, 2023, 08:44:12
I think you might just be straying into wishful thinking there Aud.


He's straying into batshit crazy conspiracy theory bollocks to be honest. Everything he's posted about covid in the last couple of days has been nonsense and now this. As someone seconded into our local covid response team a few days a week, and someone who has seen a couple of colleagues die from it over the last couple of years I struggle not to just batter those that come out with this shit when they do it in my company.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, June 19, 2023, 09:00:54
Fuck sake, I’m not saying nobody died of Covid, I’m saying the line pushed that vaccination prevents transmission is a total crock.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 19, 2023, 09:03:26
Climate change is another one. Nobody is denying it’s happening but it’s not down to you and me driving a car and eating beef. It’s a natural occurrence of the Earth’s subtle shift in orbit according to NASA. But that gets no airtime.

Just like Covid it’s all about putting fear into the population to gain control.

To counter that (and I don't know enough about science to comment authoritatively either way) I have got a close mate who works in climate change resilience for a major urban authority up here who works with scientists who do know what they are talking about, and yes we can do something about it but we are choosing not to and he is absolutely shitting it about what's coming over the hill (or should I say coming over the beach) in the comparatively short term unless we do something about it, now possibly won't affect me, but will undoubtedly affect my daughters generation!

Plus the things people are being asked to consider have the potential to make the environment we all live in a nicer place to live with less shit in the air, less shit in the water and less congestion on the roads, so even if its a hoax (which it fucking isn't) why not try and leave the planet we need to survive in a better state than when we first encountered it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, June 19, 2023, 09:12:34
Fuck sake, I’m not saying nobody died of Covid, I’m saying the line pushed that vaccination prevents transmission is a total crock.

What I don't get is what behaviour you would change as a result - even taking that to be true (I'm sure somebody will want to argue with it, but I can't be arsed) the vaccine demonstrably makes infections less severe and people - especially older folk - significantly less likely to die or have serious, life altering complications.

So you'd want everyone (or as many as possible) to be vaccinated anyway, no?

It just feels like you've dived into conspiracy theory internet world without really thinking critically about what you're reading, and emerged confidently stating at best disputed points as if they were gospel fact.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Monday, June 19, 2023, 09:14:04
Fuck sake, I’m not saying nobody died of Covid, I’m saying the line pushed that vaccination prevents transmission is a total crock.

I see this quoted a lot, so I must be in the minority but I’m sure they (the medical experts not the fucking useless government) said at the time of the rollout that the vaccine slightly reduced the transmission but the real benefit was that it reduced the symptoms & outcomes for the majority when you caught it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 19, 2023, 09:19:20
I see this quoted a lot, so I must be in the minority but I’m sure they (the medical experts not the fucking useless government) said at the time of the rollout that the vaccine slightly reduced the transmission but the real benefit was that it reduced the symptoms & outcomes for the majority when you caught it

That's it, it reduced the chances of it killing you, it didn't stop you getting it nor passing it on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Monday, June 19, 2023, 10:05:06
Fuck sake, I’m not saying nobody died of Covid, I’m saying the line pushed that vaccination prevents transmission is a total crock.

That's a total straw man argument though. It was clear from very early on that was the case. Stopping infection isn't the purpose of the vaccination programme. Stopping hundreds of thousands dying is. Locally we've seen our death rates fall from scores a day to a handful a week.

Excess deaths are still so high because the NHS is FUCKED. Fifteen years of underfunding and a dozen of utter neglect has left it on its knees and we're basically failing to treat thousands of people in a timely manner, or sometimes at all. It's not directly related to covid, it's a consequence of the service being already run down and waiting lists growing then the service having its legs kicked out from under it by the pandemic.

To be fair, you caught my reaction to both your post and Adj's suggestion that lockdown was unnecessary. But your similar wilful ignoring of all scientific evidence in relation to climate change pushed me over the edge.

People that believe these conspiracy based challenges to both covid lockdown and climate change science seem prepared to swallow the idea of hugely unlikely and complicated plots involving the cooperation of people with no shared interests for reasons that are never very clear, other than some vague idea of "control". Like the loons that were convinced covid shots were tracking bugs but happily carried their smartphones around with them everywhere little of it makes sense.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Monday, June 19, 2023, 11:55:19
That's a total straw man argument though. It was clear from very early on that was the case. Stopping infection isn't the purpose of the vaccination programme. Stopping hundreds of thousands dying is. Locally we've seen our death rates fall from scores a day to a handful a week.

Excess deaths are still so high because the NHS is FUCKED. Fifteen years of underfunding and a dozen of utter neglect has left it on its knees and we're basically failing to treat thousands of people in a timely manner, or sometimes at all. It's not directly related to covid, it's a consequence of the service being already run down and waiting lists growing then the service having its legs kicked out from under it by the pandemic.

To be fair, you caught my reaction to both your post and Adj's suggestion that lockdown was unnecessary. But your similar wilful ignoring of all scientific evidence in relation to climate change pushed me over the edge.

People that believe these conspiracy based challenges to both covid lockdown and climate change science seem prepared to swallow the idea of hugely unlikely and complicated plots involving the cooperation of people with no shared interests for reasons that are never very clear, other than some vague idea of "control". Like the loons that were convinced covid shots were tracking bugs but happily carried their smartphones around with them everywhere little of it makes sense.
Hang on, my comment wasn't based on any so called "conspiracy theory" but solely on the evidence that the Party who introduced these measures thought them so ineffective that they regularly flouted them from Johnson through Cummings and Hancock etc right down to the party minions in that video.
To be fair, I think that's a legitimate conclusion to draw. "Tracking bugs" in a jab is a whole different level


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 19, 2023, 12:18:08
Hang on, my comment wasn't based on any so called "conspiracy theory" but solely on the evidence that the Party who introduced these measures thought them so ineffective that they regularly flouted them from Johnson through Cummings and Hancock etc right down to the party minions in that video.
To be fair, I think that's a legitimate conclusion to draw. "Tracking bugs" in a jab is a whole different level


I suspect, from evidence elsewhere, its more a case of the Party who introduced these measures thought they did not apply to them, only us plebs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 19, 2023, 12:25:06
Oh dear https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65952298

I am not sure what is worse, the breaking of the rules or how fucking dreadful it looks like the party was  ;D !


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Monday, June 19, 2023, 12:27:04
I suspect, from evidence elsewhere, its more a case of the Party who introduced these measures thought they did not apply to them, only us plebs.
Which is kind of my point. Don't think they'd have flouted them so regularly if they thought they were effective


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, June 19, 2023, 12:28:04
If anybody wants to believe anything that comes out of the most corrupt, deceitful and dishonest government and their paid cronies that’s up to them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, June 19, 2023, 12:34:18
Which is kind of my point. Don't think they'd have flouted them so regularly if they thought they were effective

Not so sure considering seat belts are proven to be pretty effective but ministers (and ex prime ministers) seem to be being photographed without them on on a pretty regular basis.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Monday, June 19, 2023, 12:53:36
Hang on, my comment wasn't based on any so called "conspiracy theory" but solely on the evidence that the Party who introduced these measures thought them so ineffective that they regularly flouted them from Johnson through Cummings and Hancock etc right down to the party minions in that video.
To be fair, I think that's a legitimate conclusion to draw. "Tracking bugs" in a jab is a whole different level


So what purpose do you think lock down was imposed for? Imposed by the party of the wealthy, representatives of industry and business who were screwed by it. All that cabinets instincts were against it. They imposed it way too late, but we're clearly shitting themselves about the consequences of not following clinical advice with thousands dying. What a "compliance exercise" is I'm not sure even you know?

And Adj they were effective you twat. It worked because, thank Christ, most of the population were more responsible than these arseholes. I sat in meetings daily looking at the new infection figures for 18 months and the differences before, during and after lock downs were marked. The summer of Rishis "Eat out to spread it all about" was a fucking disaster that I hope the enquiry makes clear.

Those in high places that broke the rules did it because they knew that as long as the masses complied then the spread would slow. Most of them were testing daily. They thought sometimes wrongly that they were at little risk, and they thought they could flout rules with impunity. Those rules, like taxes and drug laws were for the little people, not them.

It's not that they thought the rules were ineffective. They just were happy for the rest of us to make the sacrifices for the collective good, whilst they selfishly got on with their lives. Just as those that refuse vaccination for infectious diseases are relying on the rest of us to keep them safe.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, June 19, 2023, 13:11:35
So how come no lockdown Sweden had a lower excess death rate than the UK?

How many people now are suffering because of lockdown? How many have died because they were unable to access the NHS for non Covid care?

Lockdown is an ongoing fucking disaster.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, June 19, 2023, 13:34:07
So how come no lockdown Sweden had a lower excess death rate than the UK?

Could it be that they have had better funded public services for decades, or even a multitude of factors, rather than one simple cause?

Australia and New Zealand also have very low excess death rates, and they had much stricter lockdowns than the UK and for far longer. If lockdowns = automatically bad, you'd expect those two countries to be utterly fucked, no?

So is that evidence that you either had to have no lockdown at all or a crazy super lockdown forever, and anything in between was dangerous? Or just a sign that it might in fact be quite a complicated measure with an awful lot of factors affecting it?

Be sceptical of simple answers, particularly when they align with things you *want* to be true.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mooneyraker on Monday, June 19, 2023, 13:41:21
We currently spend £180bn per year on the Health Service. Is it underfunded?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: fuzzy on Monday, June 19, 2023, 13:50:16
So how come no lockdown Sweden had a lower excess death rate than the UK?

How many people now are suffering because of lockdown? How many have died because they were unable to access the NHS for non Covid care?

Lockdown is an ongoing fucking disaster.

Population wise-

Sweden has 10,285,079 at the last census.
Covid infections- 2,710,948 (26.36% infection rate)
Deaths- 24,391 (0.9% death rate)

UK 67,886,011 at last census
Covid infections 24,470,262 (36.05% infection rate)
Deaths 226,977 (0.9%)

10% more infections but identical death rate.

Why the increased infection rate?

Denser population?
Adherance to restrictions?
Restriction imposed sooner in Sweden?

I don't know the answer to the above three.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Monday, June 19, 2023, 15:15:37
So how come no lockdown Sweden had a lower excess death rate than the UK?

How many people now are suffering because of lockdown? How many have died because they were unable to access the NHS for non Covid care?

Lockdown is an ongoing fucking disaster.

Bollocks. Sweden's excess deaths I'm sure are better than ours but I'm not holding up the half arsed manner of our covid response as an exemplar.

We'd had ten years of neglecting our health service, taking to pieces our public health infrastructure, to the point where we had an inadequate national system to establish a test and trace system and instead paid countless millions to the private sector to utterly fail to put a system in place. Sweden did run a decent test and trace. Something they got right. They, like the rest of Scandinavia invest in recent public services. They like the rest of Scandinavia have one of the healthiest populations in the world, with low rates of smoking, obesity and ambient air pollution. All unlike us.

I've seen probably the same table as you, tweeted by every anti-lockdown loon in the world. I think it claims to be based on OECD statistics but it never quotes a source and I've NEVER been able to find it or data that supports it on the OECD site. What I can find is the 2021 OECD Health Indicator overview report that show that across 2020 and 2021 (which contains data up to seek 26 of 2021). It shows Sweden with 512 ex deaths per million population. The worst of any of its neighbours. Way worse than Norway which was on -277 per million thanks to all the accidents and transmissible diseases lockdown prevented.

The WHO, which I'm more inclined to trust with health data than a economic forum, has Sweden with estimates of 12,207, excess deaths in 2020 and 2021 across its population of 10.4 million. Norway with 1,516 from its 5.4 million pop.

When you're working in a job that involves an understanding of epidemiology I'll be more inclined to listen. But if you were you'd know when something was utter bo!locks and not spread it further around the web.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Monday, June 19, 2023, 17:19:15
So how come no lockdown Sweden had a lower excess death rate than the UK?


IKEA meatballs prevent covid


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Monday, June 19, 2023, 17:32:40
IKEA meatballs prevent covid

:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Moss on Friday, June 23, 2023, 18:54:31
We currently spend £180bn per year on the Health Service. Is it underfunded?

Shit loads of it wasted - I work in the NHS and the waste and duplication is absolutely unbelievable. There are literally thousands of people on £50k plus salaries collecting data that nobody even looks at, or is totally inaccurate. It is a complete cluster fuck. The clinicians delivering patient care are mostly brilliant - but there also lots of Dr's being shit managers.

Drs also want to deliver the best care to their patients. Delivering a Rolls Royce service to the lucky person who gets it when we want a ford mondo for everyone that needs it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, June 23, 2023, 18:59:42
Scotland and Wales get free prescriptions love to know how they make that work!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, June 23, 2023, 19:17:30
Scotland and Wales get free prescriptions love to know how they make that work!

I pay a penny more on income tax in Scotland. Not the only reason but it certainly contributes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, June 23, 2023, 19:26:19
https://www.oecd.org/unitedkingdom/health-at-a-glance-UK-EN.pdf

Never under estimate the sheer brilliance of the NHS - despite the many opportunities that exist to run it more efficiently and effectively, and invest in the right places (the report attached shows two key areas of weakness - number of front line providers of care and beds).

The UK spends around the average on a per capita basis, which is around half of what the USA pay per capita, even including Private Healthcare add-ons in the UK.  Anyone wondering if Covid was "real" - it's pretty much the first time in generations that life expectancy fell.

Other than Bread and some people, the NHS is one of the main things I do miss - on a personal level, my current insurance is pretty damned good, but it's entirely linked to my employment and could all go sideways pretty quickly if I find myself out of a job and having to find my own Healthcare plan.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, June 23, 2023, 19:28:16
I pay a penny more on income tax in Scotland. Not the only reason but it certainly contributes.

Cheers Nemo never seen it explained before how those two country's make it work.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Saturday, June 24, 2023, 01:48:51
As I type, there’s a military coup happening in Russia. I win the Swindon internet


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Sunday, June 25, 2023, 20:59:04
As I type, there’s a military coup happening in Russia. I win the Swindon internet

You can't win the internet unless you call someone a Nazi. Jesus do you people know nothing!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Friday, July 7, 2023, 21:37:55
The tories out cunting themselves again. They really are absolute scum.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66132158


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, July 7, 2023, 21:39:43
Another highlight was Boris Johnson ranting about ULEZ when it was his idea in the first place.

Fat thick cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Friday, July 7, 2023, 22:40:01
Another highlight was Boris Johnson ranting about ULEZ when it was his idea in the first place.

Fat thick cunt.

Yes, but it hasn’t been implemented properly.
All the money collected was supposed to go into his bank account


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, July 15, 2023, 09:39:38
So at the risk of trying to have an sensible conversation in the politics thread, I want to ask the hive mind about inheritance tax. It's in the news today as the Tories are talking about scrapping it (I'm sure they did this a few months ago already, but let's go with it).

It's one thing that I've never really understood, inheritance tax. It seems to be massively, massively unpopular - more so than say, income tax, despite the fact that most people will never pay it and - from my perspective at least - the absolutely ideal time to pay tax would be when I die and not before. It's a tax on the wealthiest, and generally those seem to be quite popular - until it's inheritance tax. It's particularly unpopular with those who will absolutely never pay it - the working classes - which is especially baffling. The threshold today is an estate of £325k - you pay inheritance tax at 40% on anything above that, unless you have a good accountant.

Is it just because people only encounter it at the very worst times in their lives, when someone close to them has passed that it's so hated? Would people feel the same way about a wealth tax on the living?

Relatively thoughtful answers that don't just lean on people being stupid/brainwashed by the media would be appreciated.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, July 15, 2023, 09:43:27
it's tax on already taxed stuff. £325k isn't that much when you take a house into account.

but yes, it will benefit the family of the rich most.

it at least has to be raised


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, July 15, 2023, 09:47:19
it's tax on already taxed stuff. £325k isn't that much when you take a house into account.

I get that, but so is like, any sales tax like VAT right? Anything post-income tax is already taxed.

Hard to get good numbers, but £325k seems to be roughly about the average estate size, so thumb in the air about 50% of people have to pay something (although that's assuming it's a median average not a mean one, which it might well not be) - but as it's on value over that if you have a £400k estate you're paying £30k/7.5%. I guess the issue is that getting 7.5% of a house (or 10 or 15 or whatever) involves re-mortgaging it or selling it, right?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, July 15, 2023, 09:54:59
but everyone wants to feel they are leaving somethig behind to better their family.

I guess it's as much as emotional feeling than one of financial fairness compared to other tax. it is for me.

I do feel a similar way about (e.g.) petrol!

in all honesty though, I don't know how much inheritance tax makes for the treasury. I'd be more inclined to accept it if it was running fenced for elderly social care.

to be honest I think that's where most of my cash will go before I die anyway- some home or other


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Saturday, July 15, 2023, 10:13:50
it's tax on already taxed stuff. £325k isn't that much when you take a house into account.

but yes, it will benefit the family of the rich most.

it at least has to be raised
Think you’ll find that if you’re married and the deceased leaves everything to the other one then when the remaining spouse dies you receive double the inheritance tax free (ie around 650k) or at least that’s how a solicitor explained it to me


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, July 15, 2023, 11:43:13
interesting. getting to the age should really start to look at these things. hopefully got a fair few years left in me but anyway


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Saturday, July 15, 2023, 16:10:38
Inheritance isn't always a tax on already taxed income - profits made from house prices increases for example.

I really couldn't give a fuck how much they take from whatever I leave behind - hoping my kids have enough about them not to worry about waiting for my death with glee.

In fact, just take everyone's leftovers and pay the NHS with it.  Most people probably tank the NHS in their last few years anyway, so it's only fair.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, July 15, 2023, 19:04:39
Think you’ll find that if you’re married and the deceased leaves everything to the other one then when the remaining spouse dies you receive double the inheritance tax free (ie around 650k) or at least that’s how a solicitor explained it to me
Indeed.

If you have owned your residence (even selling it) and pass the benefit to your descendants, you can add up to £175k of that value to your "nil rate" exemption.  So the survivor of a H and W, having co-owned a residence worth £350k can leave £1m. [(325 + 175) x 2] to their descendants free of IHT on the survivor's death. Subject to other reliefs, you are generally looking at the balance being taxed at 40%.

About 5% of estates pay IHT.  But it is the beneficiaries who miss out and they would be more numerous.  

Not everyone but I wouldn't underestimate the emotional antipathy felt by likely payers and beneficiaries to this tax.  A promise to abolish would be very attractive to London and Home Counties voters of 50+ imo and would help protect the vulnerable "blue wall".

Looking at actions rather than words/promises, the "nil rate band" of £325k has been frozen since 2010-11 by the Conservatives.  The residence exemption did come into effect in 2016 to help mitigate the effects of house price inflation.  Regardless, the annual Government tax take (£6bn) and also the number of estates caught by this tax have both increased very substantially overall under the Conservatives.

My first question would be how precisely would the £6bn ++ tax revenue forsaken be recouped if IHT were abolished.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, July 15, 2023, 19:36:44
Quote from: RedRag
...
My first question would be how precisely would the £6bn ++ tax revenue forsaken be recouped if IHT were abolished.

thanks! well clearly I didn't understand IHT.

the last bit quoted above is a very important question! Not like the Tories to make everyone pay for the rich. oh wait..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Saturday, July 15, 2023, 20:39:04
Inheritance isn't always a tax on already taxed income - profits made from house prices increases for example.

I really couldn't give a fuck how much they take from whatever I leave behind - hoping my kids have enough about them not to worry about waiting for my death with glee.

In fact, just take everyone's leftovers and pay the NHS with it.  Most people probably tank the NHS in their last few years anyway, so it's only fair.

Profits from house price increases 🤔 and the tax paid on the income to pay the mortgage on said property…

That is very altruistic coming from someone who works and lives in another country. I hope your kids feel the same.
Instead of using ‘everyone’s leftovers’ assuming ‘everyone’ leaves any, how about making sure anyone coming into this country has insurance or making sure if they haven’t they can’t leave once they’ve been treated and have to work to pay it off. Also anyone missing a doctors appointment has to pay a £20 fine and £100 if it is a hospital appointment. If you’re employed it is added to your tax code if you’re unemployed it comes off your benefits  with a suitable appeals process not withstanding.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: swindonmaniac on Saturday, July 15, 2023, 21:14:23
Now that does open up a whole new can of worms,  but sounds like a good option to me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, July 15, 2023, 21:30:30
Not sure you're going to make up £6bn in £20 fines very quickly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, July 15, 2023, 21:35:05
I'm interested to know how the government will make up the £24.3 billion fuel duty shortfall once they stop selling petrol & diesel🤔


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Saturday, July 15, 2023, 21:43:43
Electric tax?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Sunday, July 16, 2023, 09:44:58
Profits from house price increases 🤔 and the tax paid on the income to pay the mortgage on said property…

That is very altruistic coming from someone who works and lives in another country. I hope your kids feel the same.
Instead of using ‘everyone’s leftovers’ assuming ‘everyone’ leaves any, how about making sure anyone coming into this country has insurance or making sure if they haven’t they can’t leave once they’ve been treated and have to work to pay it off. Also anyone missing a doctors appointment has to pay a £20 fine and £100 if it is a hospital appointment. If you’re employed it is added to your tax code if you’re unemployed it comes off your benefits  with a suitable appeals process not withstanding.
Whilst I respect the instinct to pass on one's estate to one's children, I have no time by the Tory reach to make immigrants or the poor pay for the wealthier 5% and ideally the wealthiest 1%.

If you want to go after "immigrants", how about recouping half the cost of abolishing IHT (£3bn+/£6bn +) paid by UK Doms like you by "abolishing" the Non-Dom tax exemption that allows Non-Dom UK residents like Ashkata Murty to save her £4m.p.a. in tax in exchange for a nominal £30/60k p.a. payment?  

If this beholden Conservative Government really cared about Conservatives like you - and many not unreasonable others - it would have been increasing the "Nil Rate Bands" of £325k & £175k+ in line with an appropriate index, eg RPI/CPI.  Instead this has been frozen for 13 years bringing more and more ordinarily "wealthier" estates into the IHT orbit.  

IHT is largely a voluntary tax where the 1% are concerned.  [If you're part of that 1%, my apologies.  And please report urgently to Clem and Flynn!]


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jevs on Sunday, July 16, 2023, 13:32:37
Whilst I respect the instinct to pass on one's estate to one's children, I have no time by the Tory reach to make immigrants or the poor pay for the wealthier 5% and ideally the wealthiest 1%.

If you want to go after "immigrants", how about recouping half the cost of abolishing IHT (£3bn+/£6bn +) paid by UK Non-Doms like you by "abolishing" the Non-Dom tax exemption that allows Non-Dom UK residents like Ashkata Murty to save her £4m.p.a. in tax in exchange for a nominal £30/60k p.a. payment?  

If this beholden Conservative Government really cared about Conservatives like you - and many not unreasonable others - it would have been increasing the "Nil Rate Bands" of £325k & £175k+ in line with an appropriate index, eg RPI/CPI.  Instead this has been frozen for 13 years bringing more and more ordinarily "wealthier" estates into the IHT orbit.  

IHT is largely a voluntary tax where the 1% are concerned.  [If you're part of that 1%, my apologies.  And please report urgently to Clem and Flynn!]



I've never really understood the indignance about IHT compared to other taxes, though I do get it if it causes problems with the family home. The line that it's on already taxed income applies to all taxes doesn't it & surely unearned income deserves to be taxed if earned income is at over 12k a year? I do not understand how the super rich like Dyson are allowed to buy up half the land in the UK to dodge it if everyone else has to stump up at 325k + though.

For me VAT and the green levies on utility bills are disgusting and hidden by the do gooder factor. It's essentially a tax on everyone to fund ineffective ground source heat pumps and solar panels for those that don't really need the financial assistance, and subsidise Drax power station etc. All this eco stuff looks an awful lot like punishing the poorer under the cover of dubious 'improvements' to the environment which do not appear to deliver anything noticable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Sunday, July 23, 2023, 15:53:11
Spanish General Election today, really holding our breath, if the partido popular (Tories) who are leading in the polls don't get enough votes they may well team up with the facist VOX party which could be disastrous in so many ways.
The PSOE (labour) have been in for 5 years and have done a decentish job in the circumstances, highest economic growth in the euro zone, low inflation, but the Spanish (Madrid) press hate the fact they pair up with the Catalans and basques.

Things could become very messy if vox get involved, not just in Barcelona and Bilbao but also Gibraltar too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, July 23, 2023, 15:55:53
ugh, that does not sound good. fingers crossed Mex


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, July 23, 2023, 16:08:57
What's your job situation these days Batch safe or still in jeopardy🤔


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, July 23, 2023, 16:21:02
Quote from: Jimmy QuitMoaning
What's your job situation these days Batch safe or still in jeopardy🤔

thanks for asking Jimmy. Much appreciated.

I got made redundant on Monday. Accepted a new job on Friday (had 2 offers).

Back in an office 5 days a week but should be interesting work and they made me a great offer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, July 23, 2023, 16:28:34
thanks for asking Jimmy. Much appreciated.

I got made redundant on Monday. Accepted a new job on Friday (had 2 offers).

Back in an office 5 days a week but should be interesting work and they made me a great offer.

Nice one Batch hopefully it has worked out well for you & the family and hope it goes well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, July 23, 2023, 16:28:50
thanks


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Sunday, July 23, 2023, 16:39:14
thanks for asking Jimmy. Much appreciated.

I got made redundant on Monday. Accepted a new job on Friday (had 2 offers).

Back in an office 5 days a week but should be interesting work and they made me a great offer.

Fantastic result Batch! Sounds like an ideal scenario after a period of uncertainty.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Sunday, July 23, 2023, 20:31:32
Spanish General Election today, really holding our breath, if the partido popular (Tories) who are leading in the polls don't get enough votes they may well team up with the facist VOX party which could be disastrous in so many ways.
The PSOE (labour) have been in for 5 years and have done a decentish job in the circumstances, highest economic growth in the euro zone, low inflation, but the Spanish (Madrid) press hate the fact they pair up with the Catalans and basques.

Things could become very messy if vox get involved, not just in Barcelona and Bilbao but also Gibraltar too.

I'm hoping those crossed fingers are working, but it's looking bloody close.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Sunday, July 23, 2023, 21:49:56
Looks like you may have got away with it Mex. Right wing seem mainly to have cannibalized their own votes within the block. As the smaller nationalist parties make up the rest of the seats, and none of them will touch a PP/Vox coalition with a shitty stick, they won't get to a functioning majority. The left of centre block, including the Catolonian and Basque left's nearly make it to a majority, and if the PNV or Junts nationalists support, which they did last time around, it's another PSOE / left bloc government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Monday, July 24, 2023, 05:44:27
Phew, but still no wiser, can't see junts supporting Sanchez, I reckon another vote in November

If PSOE wins that and labour wins next year I can see the border moving to within the airport in Gibraltar and it becoming schengen


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Monday, July 24, 2023, 14:37:18
Phew, but still no wiser, can't see junts supporting Sanchez, I reckon another vote in November

If PSOE wins that and labour wins next year I can see the border moving to within the airport in Gibraltar and it becoming schengen

Basque nats might though. That must means the Junts just need to abstain and they may get a an administration in place. Can't see it lasting though so probably another election before Xmas as you say. That'll be what six since 2015?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Thursday, July 27, 2023, 15:32:02
sanchez interim PM :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 12:38:35
Fuck me, its not very often a bullshit right wing conspiracy theory (and apparently now government policy) flies so close to my professional life.

For fuck sake no one fall for this bollocks that 15 minute cities are some sort of marxist plot to control our minds through vaccine brain lasers or whatever bollocks they are spinning now. This new dangerous theory was actually come up with about 100 years ago (see Ebenezer Howard and Garden Cities of To-morrow) for anyone interested) and is a basic part of national planning guidance and policy and has been my entire career!

Oh and the government have previously confirmed it is nothing but a conspiracy theory anyway... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/conservative-party-conference-15-minute-cities-mark-harper-conspiracy/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 12:47:28
Fuck me, its not very often a bullshit right wing conspiracy theory (and apparently now government policy) flies so close to my professional life.

For fuck sake no one fall for this bollocks that 15 minute cities are some sort of marxist plot to control our minds through vaccine brain lasers or whatever bollocks they are spinning now. This new dangerous theory was actually come up with about 100 years ago (see Ebenezer Howard and Garden Cities of To-morrow) for anyone interested) and is a basic part of national planning guidance and policy and has been my entire career!

Oh and the government have previously confirmed it is nothing but a conspiracy theory anyway... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/conservative-party-conference-15-minute-cities-mark-harper-conspiracy/

Left wing Socialism has always been about control and power to the state. That’s the ideology


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 12:54:54
Why does everyone have to be labelled with an "ism"?  Why do people have to be classified as Left or Right?  People have even started doing it on social issues as opposed to political issues, which creates cross breads as far as I can see.

I'm an individual, just like everybody else :-)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 13:00:09
Why does everyone have to be labelled with an "ism"?  Why do people have to be classified as Left or Right?  People have even started doing it on social issues as opposed to political issues, which creates cross breads as far as I can see.

I'm an individual, just like everybody else :-)

Because of identity politics.

Some people have to belong to a group and have all their opinions go the same way because they lack the capacity to think for themselves or don't want to have the "wrong" opinion on something.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 13:04:00
Left wing Socialism has always been about control and power to the state. That’s the ideology

Eh?????

It has literally been planning guidance/policy for over 30 fucking years under governments of all colours and whatever 'ism's people care to fling at them.

People saying its a 'bad thing' are literally arguing that its better to have to drive to a shop/pub etc than be able to walk.

I'm an individual, just like everybody else :-)

No you're a number, don't be a sheeple  ;) :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 13:14:53
Left wing Socialism has always been about control and power to the state. That’s the ideology
Down with that sort of thing!

Here we have an example of Central Government - ie the State - proposing blocking or restricting Local Government initiatives.

I must admit I hadn't previously associated the current Conservative Government with left wing Socialism.  Perhaps there are other political ideologies that also seek to grant control and power to the State?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 13:16:47
Down with that sort of thing!

Here we have an example of Central Government - ie the State - proposing blocking or restricting Local Government initiatives.

I must admit I hadn't previously associated the current Conservative Government with left wing Socialism.  Perhaps there are other political ideologies that also seek to grant control and power to the State?

Because the ideas are just plain stupid.

I have big issues personally with some of this govt policies but am under no illusions on how much worse labour would be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 13:19:51
Because the ideas are just plain stupid.
Could you spell out what ideas are plain stupid pls?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 13:22:51
Could you spell out what ideas are plain stupid pls?

I have big issues personally with some of this govt policies but am under no illusions on how much worse labour would be.

And a follow up question as to why things would invariably be worse under Labour


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 14:05:07
Personally, I don’t think there is much substantive difference between any of the useless fuckers. They fiddle around the edges but do nothing to address the main issues.

I’m looking forward to a knock on the door from my prospective Tory candidate.

‘You may be the best constituency MP there is but there’s no way on God’s Green Earth I’m voting your corrupt party in’

We need a benign dictator to get things done!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 14:16:04
Could you spell out what ideas are plain stupid pls?

This could be interesting, because I really struggle to find easily available information that really does deliver a clear indication of what anyone stands for these days.  True policy statements.  There is a lot of faff from them all about the shit the other Party gets up to, and some vague promise to be better, but HOW?

I am sure those that read my thoughts would assume I am Left Wing.  So, on that basis, what little I can find on Labours idea for Fair Pay Agreements would worry me.  It sounds like Collective Bargaining for those not Unionised, and I really do not like that one bit if that is what it is.  Government should be there to propose the basic acceptable standards for a society.  If any wage is deemed to be too low, then set a standard for the Country, but I do not like others negotiating for me thank you very much.

That is precisely why Unions exist in the first place - if people want to join them, let them.  My personal experience has never been good - it's riddled with personal self interest, despite some notion of being for the greater good.

On the flip side, I'm fully behind a Government backed scheme to invest in Energy Efficiency and Renewables, which they claim they would deliver, including 6bn on Insulating homes that needs it.  If we wait for the private sector and individuals to work on such items, it will never get done.  Free markets work well for consumerism, not so much for things that take 40-50 years to give a return.

There.  Should be easier than it is to do this though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 14:22:35
You’d presume if any party is all for net zero by 2030, 2035 or whatever they would have an idea of the cost that would involve. Let us know, it’s our money they’ll spend (or pocket).

I notice Rishi has gone all Boris and lost his WhatsApp messages from his time as Chancellor during Covid.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 14:50:16
This could be interesting, because I really struggle to find easily available information that really does deliver a clear indication of what anyone stands for these days.  True policy statements.  There is a lot of faff from them all about the shit the other Party gets up to, and some vague promise to be better, but HOW?

There.  Should be easier than it is to do this though.

Policies, smolicies, that is so 2016. You just get elected now with a decent majority and then fuck it, do what you like.

The present government got elected off the back of a manifesto so limited it could probably have been written on a stamp and have delivered (or even attempted to deliver) very little of it (and where they claim to have the interpretation of the figures are questionable to say the least - 40 new hospitals anyone, likewise Sunak has come out with his own pledges and not sure where if anywhere we are going with that.

What is going to be interesting is post next election if Labour get in (really not convinced they will) and start down the same path of ignoring pledges, making it up as they go along and basically forcing stuff that is dubiously legal through via majority in the house and/or SI's.

Now many of a blue persuasion are going to (entirely correctly) lose their fucking minds if/when this happens, but they are just going to look like prize hypocritical pricks when they do as its the precedents and destructions of parliamentary conventions instigated by the governments of the last 7-8 years which has got us to this state, and they didn't bat an eyelid when that was happening.

I know some on here think that I am a card carrying marxist or something, but my voting record is tied to no one, I just want a government that actually seems to give a shit about the population (all of them!) and making sure we pass on a sustainable planet and society to my daughter and her successors, the colour of their chosen rosette means fuck all to me.  

You’d presume if any party is all for net zero by 2030, 2035 or whatever they would have an idea of the cost that would involve. Let us know, it’s our money they’ll spend (or pocket).


Indeed, but also include details of the cost if we don't, which I suspect will dwarf the cost of net zero!

Oh and show their working after the monumental (but deliberate??) fuck up from the Tufton Street think tank last week! https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/sep/29/how-a-thinktank-got-the-cost-of-net-zero-for-the-uk-wildly-wrong


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 15:15:30
It surprises me that those at the front of pushing for more sustainable uses of resources/energy don't just hammer home the cost of alternatives, which includes doing nothing.  As an example, someone should be totalising the cost of more extreme Hurricanes to Florida, or flood defences for New York, or grain prices and so on.  There was something, around the time inflation became the hot topic, about the cost of basic essential vegetables in the UK, and how the changing climate was fucking it up for farmers to the extent it was (reduced crops, cost to produ e a  crop and some crops just becoming impossible to grow with any great effect).  There should be much more of that, and less of the save the planet stuff - people care about themselves, some care about others, but would still save themselves first, very few are altruistic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 15:21:36
Anyone in favour of nuclear? I think France produces about 70% of its electricity through nuclear, UK less than half that.

I’m unconvinced about wind, solar etc. Where’s all the extra electricity going to come from if electric cars become commonplace? What about the child labour being used to mine the lithium needed for batteries?

A lot of net zero policies seem to be anti environmental which is a bit perverse.

What about the larger vehicles, trucks, buses etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 15:23:25
Anyone in favour of nuclear? I think France produces about 70% of its electricity through nuclear, UK less than half that.

I’m unconvinced about wind, solar etc. Where’s all the extra electricity going to come from if electric cars become commonplace? What about the child labour being used to mine the lithium needed for batteries?

A lot of net zero policies seem to be anti environmental which is a bit perverse.

What about the larger vehicles, trucks, buses etc.

You'll be pleased to know that Labour have committed to Nuclear, as in to push it as part of the future mix of energy provision.  At least their policy stuff online suggested as much.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 15:23:46
Too many houses being built across the country isn’t helping our farmers either.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ThreeDrawsMentality on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 15:56:22
Because the ideas are just plain stupid.

I have big issues personally with some of this govt policies but am under no illusions on how much worse labour would be.
Just out of curiousity, what is it about a prospective Labour government that makes you believe it would be much worse than what it currently is?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ticker45 on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 16:03:30
Anyone in favour of nuclear? I think France produces about 70% of its electricity through nuclear, UK less than half that.

I’m unconvinced about wind, solar etc. Where’s all the extra electricity going to come from if electric cars become commonplace? What about the child labour being used to mine the lithium needed for batteries?

A lot of net zero policies seem to be anti environmental which is a bit perverse.

What about the larger vehicles, trucks, buses etc.

Never thought that wind and solar was the entire answer either, Rolls-Royce have a design for small nuclear power stations as opposed to the extremely over costly major ones being built that look a far more preferable solution.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 16:21:59
I’m unconvinced about wind, solar etc. Where’s all the extra electricity going to come from if electric cars become commonplace? What about the child labour being used to mine the lithium needed for batteries?

National grid seem pretty sanguine about the whole thing, I can't find the graphic I found previously so am gonna have to type this...

The highest peak demand in the UK in recent years was 62GW in 2002, since then demand has fallen by c.16% due to improvements in efficiency.

Even if everyone switched to EV's overnight they think demand would go up c.10% so we would still be using less than we did 21 years ago and well within existing grid capacity.

Too many houses being built across the country isn’t helping our farmers either.

Why?

I suspect the government selling them down the river to Australia and New Zealand for a quick headline and JRM wetting his pants about being able to eat hormone injected beef is causing them more sleepless nights. https://x.com/Minette_Batters/status/1708829501055000802

Note Ms Batters is a Wiltshire farmer, and president of that bastion of far left Marxism, the NFU!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 16:25:56
We keep hearing about being a more sustainable country and growing more cereal and crops but on the other hand can’t wait to purchase more green fields to build on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 16:58:03
Anyone in favour of nuclear? I think France produces about 70% of its electricity through nuclear, UK less than half that.

I’m unconvinced about wind, solar etc. Where’s all the extra electricity going to come from if electric cars become commonplace? What about the child labour being used to mine the lithium needed for batteries?

A lot of net zero policies seem to be anti environmental which is a bit perverse.

What about the larger vehicles, trucks, buses etc.

The EV debate is an interesting one to me - I'm not sold, but then I am also not wed to the combustion engine either.  Fucked if I care how the thing moves (in terms of emotions).

What puzzles me, is why the EV market hasn't been far more innovative in how to change cars, for the better, by the benefits that electric propulsion deliver.  Not least, far less parts - meaning there is an opportunity to get much more creative in the design of the cars interior - more space becomes available.

Now, in terms of environmental.  There are certainly some concerns with being able to fully sell the current EV's as significantly better for the environment.  It's fuzzy, even if generally beneficial.  however, what we do know is that Petroleum is not going to suddenly be environmentally friendly, and developments in efficiency can only do so much when the source of fuel is naturally bad for the climate.  EV transition at least gives us a jumping off point to head somewhere else - the source of energy can be produced in better ways, even if not done so yet.  I'd also wager that EV is staging point to something else in 20/30 years, or it should be.  Just think of the innovation in phone batteries for example.  There is so much that can be done - it should be seen as a way of unlocking innovation.  Cars, and planes and trains for that matter, have not innovated nearly as much as other things in the world of technology, not least because they were constrained by their fuel source.

Lets get creative.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: fuzzy on Tuesday, October 3, 2023, 17:56:10
I read an article in Practical Classic the other day about a fully manufactured from bio products petrol. Carbon neautral because the carbon it releases is in exact balance with the carbon in the ingredients.

They tried it in 4 or 5 classic cars and none ofthe drivers noticed a difference.

£4.85 a litre though.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Wednesday, October 4, 2023, 10:51:26
Feeling a bit nauseous. Just listening to Mrs Sunak's speech.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Wednesday, October 4, 2023, 11:33:01
Feeling a bit nauseous. Just listening to Mr Sunak's speech.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Wednesday, October 4, 2023, 11:37:46
Feeling a bit nauseous. Just listening to Mr Sunak's speech.
Quite. What a tit, calls out Starmer(of whom I am not a fan) for changing his mind, after himself forming 2 colossal "u turns" in the past fortnight. Sap


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, October 4, 2023, 14:15:03
I see they cancelled the northern part of HS2

How much fucking money has been wasted there?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, October 4, 2023, 14:20:29
I see they cancelled the northern part of HS2

How much fucking money has been wasted there?

A vast amount. I know London is the centre of the universe according to Westminster, but it would have made a nice change to have started the project from the north and headed south rather than start from London and go north. (and evidently not even get there)

The railway network as a whole, in this country is so bad with expensive tickets and poor reliability. For it to be in this state in 2023 is a pretty sad state of affairs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, October 4, 2023, 14:40:26
You should see the USA rail network, which is sad given it's history.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Wednesday, October 4, 2023, 19:49:55
You should see the USA rail network, which is sad given it's history.
Only used it once. Went from DC area to New York. It was awesome!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, October 4, 2023, 20:08:56
Only used it once. Went from DC area to New York. It was awesome!

Next to zero High Speed, multiple derailments of Cargo trains and a massively underfunded network, which isn't going to change as they've gone with car or plane as the options really.  I can get a train from Atlanta to Orlando, it takes 17 hours! (Just over 400 miles)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Friday, October 6, 2023, 09:51:42
Ha, Con party 500 quid worse off today!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 6, 2023, 10:17:49
You should see the USA rail network, which is sad given it's history.

I don't know the history but is that due to lack of demand leading to closure or vice versa.

Watched a few films about travelling by train in the US and it seems to be a very middle class thing on anything beyond the local sort of metro regional things in towns/cities.   


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, October 7, 2023, 10:17:12
Yay! Another war to worry about.

Maybe we all deserve to fry.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Saturday, October 7, 2023, 10:59:51
Yay! Another war to worry about.

Maybe we all deserve to fry.

Israel and Palestine?

Havent they always been at war anyway?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Saturday, October 7, 2023, 11:49:42
Israel and Palestine?

Havent they always been at war anyway?

Always been how I've viewed it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, October 7, 2023, 12:03:40
America supply arms to Israel


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, October 7, 2023, 12:14:21
This churned my stomach and brought a tear to me eye. Some might not want to watch

https://x.com/jimfergusonuk/status/1710575796744589440?s=61&t=HYPly50GSEZLTKzNdaNp7Q


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, October 7, 2023, 12:39:41
America supply arms to Israel
So do we don't we?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ChalkyWhiteIsGod on Saturday, October 7, 2023, 12:40:41
This churned my stomach and brought a tear to me eye. Some might not want to watch

https://x.com/jimfergusonuk/status/1710575796744589440?s=61&t=HYPly50GSEZLTKzNdaNp7Q

Jesus.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, October 7, 2023, 12:41:46
Just seen worse. Cars stopped, all occupants murdered - men, women, children.

My god, what’s wrong with humanity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, October 7, 2023, 12:45:35
the only way it stops is to actually talk. we know that.

But look at The Troubles, that took a long time, concessions and people with the nerves of steel to follow it through.

But it has to start with willing.

it's FUBAR


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: fuzzy on Saturday, October 7, 2023, 12:46:02
Just seen worse. Cars stopped, all occupants murdered - men, women, children.

My god, what’s wrong with humanity.

Religion


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Saturday, October 7, 2023, 12:46:53
The abused can end up as abusers.

That could apply to nations / peoples as well as individuals.
I'm thinking of both sides in this particular conflict.

The attitudes of some nations that claim to set an example hasn't helped over the years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Saturday, October 14, 2023, 09:10:20
Setting up a safe route and then (apparently) bombing it, is something the West was outraged about Russia doing. I've not seen the same response from the West in relation to Israel's attack on the sole safe route out of the area they want cleared.

It seems the West has settled for peace, but only on Israel's terms

Edit-  ok, there are two routes...but bombing half of them is bad fucking form


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, October 14, 2023, 09:52:00
Setting up a safe route and then (apparently) bombing it, is something the West was outraged about Russia doing. I've not seen the same response from the West in relation to Israel's attack on the sole safe route out of the area they want cleared.

It seems the West has settled for peace, but only on Israel's terms

Edit-  ok, there are two routes...but bombing half of them is bad fucking form
Agreed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, October 20, 2023, 08:29:43
Will no doubt regret bumping this thread, but two by elections yesterday and the Tories lost both to Labour on enormous swings, including their 57th safest seat overall. General election night is going to be very fucking cathartic indeed, when they finally get round to it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, October 20, 2023, 08:34:44
Tbh, I think Labour are winning by default - nobody in their right mind will vote Tory after the Boris years followed by Sunak.

I’ve come to the conclusion it matters not who votes for who - nothing gets better, just worse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, October 20, 2023, 08:39:50
Will no doubt regret bumping this thread, but two by elections yesterday and the Tories lost both to Labour on enormous swings, including their 57th safest seat overall. General election night is going to be very fucking cathartic indeed, when they finally get round to it.

I think whoever is in power has an absolutely mammoth task ahead of them. Labour are clearly a shoe-in to win the next election but to me they hardly inspire confidence. The best I can say about them is that they are not tories.

The whole world appears to be a smoking gun, what with war in Ukraine, the middle east which is an absolute powder keg and horrendous political divisions between left and right becoming more vitriolic. Luckily I have a cracking local pub which is like my 'Winchester' where we can go until this all blows over.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, October 20, 2023, 08:40:00
I have no expectation of the country under Labour immediately becoming Elysium, but it at least feels like they'd try and improve things a bit, which the current government seem to have entirely given up on in favour of just picking fights over moronic shit.

And the catharsis will be mostly watching some of the worst people in parliament lose their seats. I might make cunt top trumps for the occasion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, October 20, 2023, 08:48:44
I have no expectation of the country under Labour immediately becoming Elysium, but it at least feels like they'd try and improve things a bit, which the current government seem to have entirely given up on in favour of just picking fights over moronic shit.

And the catharsis will be mostly watching some of the worst people in parliament lose their seats. I might make cunt top trumps for the occasion.

There are very few politicians in any of the parties that inspire me to be honest. I do think it is time for someone else to have a go and I'm in agreement with you, there are some people currently in power that have faces you wouldn't tire of punching. Our MP here is Heaton-Harris, he was on Question time last night, the first time I had seen him speak. He had the charisma of a dead trout.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mooneyraker on Friday, October 20, 2023, 08:49:55
Looking at the stats, the actually Labour vote didn't really increase since their defeats at the last GE. The Tory vote just didn't turn up. Not a great place for a democracy when someone comes into power due to mass apathy/sense of disenfranchisement.
Similarly, the SNP collapse will likely see Labour home I think.
So Labour will come into power not because they are Labour but because they are neither the Tories nor the SNP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 20, 2023, 09:13:57
I think whoever is in power has an absolutely mammoth task ahead of them. Labour are clearly a shoe-in to win the next election but to me they hardly inspire confidence. The best I can say about them is that they are not tories.

I remain unconvinced they are a shoe in, they may be the biggest party but I still don't see them getting a majority, never underestimate the Schroedinger Tories which are presently moaning like fuck about everything being shit, but then will quietly vote Tory come a GE to keep the commies out.

Also worth bearing mind that in both cases last night if Reform hadn't stood and their votes remained with the Tories the Tories would have retained the seat, so no doubt a deal will be done before the next election to get Farage and Tice into the Lords and stand down their Reform candidates.

Edit - Plus also worth noting that in Tamworth Britain First, an offshoot of the BNP and considered by come to be a neo-fascist party finished 4th of 9 candidates, with 580 votes (2.3%) getting more votes then the Liberal Democrats, the Green party and UKIP.

I have no expectation of the country under Labour immediately becoming Elysium, but it at least feels like they'd try and improve things a bit, which the current government seem to have entirely given up on in favour of just picking fights over moronic shit.

Pretty much this, I honestly don't give a toss whatever colour rosette the party is wearing, just a government that at least gave the vague impression of giving a shit about all of the population, and didn't appear to have as its sole objective to be cruel to certain parts of society whilst making the already extremely wealthy and specifically and blatantly their donors more wealthy would be a massive step forward in UK politics from the present situation.

Looking at the stats, the actually Labour vote didn't really increase since their defeats at the last GE. The Tory vote just didn't turn up. Not a great place for a democracy when someone comes into power due to mass apathy/sense of disenfranchisement.

By-election turnouts are notoriously low and especially in Nadine's old constituency they Tory vote was just royally fucked off. Possibly as interesting data to look at is the changes in proportion of the votes cast.

The interesting thing will be what the parties do now, I actually think Uxbridge despite being a loss, was a big help for Labour as it set the Tories off on this #waronmotorists shtick which it seems is isn't the vote winner they think it is, now I see the Tories are coming out saying they think that people are still thinking they are doing things right, which suggests that the veering even further right will continue?

So Labour will come into power not because they are Labour but because they are neither the Tories nor the SNP.

Indeed much like the Tories got into power with a massive majority in 2019 mainly just for not being Jeremy Corbyn.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ThreeDrawsMentality on Friday, October 20, 2023, 09:38:00
So Labour will come into power not because they are Labour but because they are neither the Tories nor the SNP.
To be honest I think this goes for most the UK elections, opposition parties don't tend to win them, instead Governing parties tend to lose them. From recent memory it feels like only Blair bucked this trend to his popularity in opposition.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mooneyraker on Friday, October 20, 2023, 09:45:19
To be fair to Boris, whether it was bullshit or not, "Get Brexit Done" spoke to a fair chunk of voters worn out by the years long parliamentary impasse. You can't say he only won that majority because he wasn't Corbyn, particularly as the Conservatives weren't the opposition.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, October 20, 2023, 09:48:16
To be fair to Boris, whether it was bullshit or not, "Get Brexit Done" spoke to a fair chunk of voters worn out by the years long parliamentary impasse. You can't see he only won that majority because he wasn't Corbyn, particularly as the Conservatives weren't the opposition.

This is pretty fair, particularly considering that Theresa May also wasn't Corbyn and did really rather a lot worse. I think Boris was and remains a twit, but he was undeniably popular amongst a decent chunk of the country.

But the overall point is right I think - not that many UK PMs sweep to power on a wave of enthusiasm a la Blair. Most are just seen as the best of a bad bunch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, October 20, 2023, 09:56:54
Not really interested who votes for what party, but do you vote for the party you think will do the best for you and your family or for the party which you think would be best for the country overall.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, October 20, 2023, 10:02:12
Not really interested who votes for what party, but do you vote for the party you think will do the best for you and your family or for the party which you think would be best for the country overall.

I think in theory a balance of both, but I can't think of any times that they haven't been the same thing in my view, perhaps because I'm pretty average in terms of income and pretty vanilla in terms of outlook/social class.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mooneyraker on Friday, October 20, 2023, 10:06:04
This is pretty fair, particularly considering that Theresa May also wasn't Corbyn and did really rather a lot worse. I think Boris was and remains a twit, but he was undeniably popular amongst a decent chunk of the country.

But the overall point is right I think - not that many UK PMs sweep to power on a wave of enthusiasm a la Blair. Most are just seen as the best of a bad bunch.

Yes and perhaps given what happened with Blair over Iraq, sweeping to power on a wave of enthusiasm is probably something of a cautionary tale.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, October 20, 2023, 10:48:30
Wonder when the Tories will choose to take the tumble from Beachy Head.

They could linger until end of Jan 2025.

I'm guessing next September.
A year can be a long time in politics & a heavy reliance on the electrolate having short memories. Who knows.

Economic uncertainties are likely to increase rather than decrease I suspect.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mooneyraker on Friday, October 20, 2023, 10:52:58
Significant escalation in the Middle East could well move the dial.

Labour are walking a tightrope there with large parts of their supporter base.

The Tories will leave it as late as possible I imagine.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 20, 2023, 10:58:09
I think in theory a balance of both, but I can't think of any times that they haven't been the same thing in my view, perhaps because I'm pretty average in terms of income and pretty vanilla in terms of outlook/social class.

This is it, we're a bit above average in term of earnings, and most of my client base from whom I earn that money are very wealthy, but to be very wealthy they need those on low and average earnings to have enough cash to buy their products, so its swings and roundabouts really.

What skews things is where the government and media manage to twist things so issues that actually affect very few of us, but benefit others become massive issues, the recent inheritance tax fuss being a prime example.

Wonder when the Tories will choose to take the tumble from Beachy Head.

They could linger until end of Jan 2025.

I'm guessing next September.
A year can be a long time in politics & a heavy reliance on the electrolate having short memories. Who knows.

Economic uncertainties are likely to increase rather than decrease I suspect.

It's gonna be next Autumn I agree, whilst they could hold on till January 2025 that's just going to really piss off those on the ground.

Significant escalation in the Middle East could well move the dial.

Labour are walking a tightrope there with large parts of their supporter base.


Both parties are at risk of alienating their supporter base, there are a hell of a lot of long standing conservative voters who are absolutely fucking horrified at the violent lurch to the right the party are presently undertaking, and sound bites from ministers suggest this morning that isn't going to slow or change.

Speaking to a mate this morning who is in to this sort of thing (has worked with John Curtice in the past) and his comment was that a huge amount is going to depend on how the Tories respond to this, be it accept that many are repulsed vs. just ploughing ahead.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mooneyraker on Friday, October 20, 2023, 11:17:23
It seems noteworthy that this is being portrayed by Starmer as lots of new people voting for Labour for the first time.

I do find this coverage strange and I normally enjoy Curtice but I think he's missed the key story here or paid it lip service.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67166028

In Tamworth in 2019 Labour managed 10,908 votes. In 2023 they got 11,719. This is an increase of less than 8%.

In Mid Beds in 2019 Labour managed 14,028 votes. In 2023 they got 13,872. This is a decrease of 1%.

The story here isn't that Labour 'did well'. It is that the Tory voters simply didn't turn up. The turnout was down almost 30% in both constituencies and the figures almost exactly align with the Conservative voter atrophy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, October 20, 2023, 11:21:21
By election turnouts are always way below general election ones, no? If this was an outlier then sure that's the story,  but I suspect Curtice probably knows what he's talking about.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mooneyraker on Friday, October 20, 2023, 11:22:44
By election turnouts are always way below general election ones, no? If this was an outlier then sure that's the story,  but I suspect Curtice probably knows what he's talking about.

He 100% knows what he's talking about. It's his life's work!

I'm just saying that it seems odd that a 1% decrease in voters in a constituency, and a marginal gain in another, is being spun as a rocking win.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, October 20, 2023, 11:27:06
Should voting be mandatory.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mooneyraker on Friday, October 20, 2023, 11:31:59
Should voting be mandatory.

I think it should be mandatory to turn up, even if you draw a hairy cock on your ballot paper.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 20, 2023, 11:33:30
There is a fun game to be hand on Twitter this morning, Tory or Corbynista as they both seem to be saying exactly the same things.

Talking of Twitter I see Spacey formerly of this Parish has been busy.

https://x.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1715251166441775197


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, October 20, 2023, 12:32:55
He 100% knows what he's talking about. It's his life's work!

I'm just saying that it seems odd that a 1% decrease in voters in a constituency, and a marginal gain in another, is being spun as a rocking win.

It's a really interesting way of analysing the statistics isn't it? In one way overturning a 25k deficit is pretty monumental (which is what Labour will present), but when you take the statistic you stated, it doesn't quite look as impressive. (which is what the tories will present)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, October 20, 2023, 12:44:33
It's a really interesting way of analysing the statistics isn't it? In one way overturning a 25k deficit is pretty monumental (which is what Labour will present), but when you take the statistic you stated, it doesn't quite look as impressive. (which is what the tories will present)

Its all down to proportion of the vote rather than total number isn't it, you are never going to get similar number of votes on a much smaller turnout. As noted previously this is why the number of vote as a statistic is being grasped on Twitter by Tories and Corbynista's alike as a way to show their man/party did better.

Not sure where the evidence of the Tory vote staying at home is coming from as how would you know bar possibly Tory tellers at the door  and how big an effect that actually has, and the Tory's stating this as fact all has an air of Mandy Rice Davis about it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, October 20, 2023, 12:48:17
Its all down to proportion of the vote rather than total number isn't it, you are never going to get similar number of votes on a much smaller turnout. As noted previously this is why the number of vote as a statistic is being grasped on Twitter by Tories and Corbynista's alike as a way to show their man/party did better.

Not sure where the evidence of the Tory vote staying at home is coming from as how would you know bar possibly Tory tellers at the door  and how big an effect that actually has, and the Tory's stating this as fact all has an air of Mandy Rice Davis about it.

That's a really good point.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mooneyraker on Friday, October 20, 2023, 13:04:51
Indeed, we won't ever know but I'm going to chuck a fiver on a Conservative win at the GE for a laugh as the odds will be decent right now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ThreeDrawsMentality on Friday, October 20, 2023, 13:13:13
Pollsters Survation compiled 'intention to turn out' data prior to the Mids Bed by-election.

They found 52% of 2019 Conservative voters intended to turn out, and 58% of 2019 Labour voters intended to turn out. Given their voting intention poll compiled from the same research was similar to outcome, pours some cold water on the 'no swing' to Labour narrative.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mooneyraker on Friday, October 20, 2023, 13:15:14
Pollsters Survation compiled 'intention to turn out' data prior to the Mids Bed by-election.

They found 52% of 2019 Conservative voters intended to turn out, and 58% of 2019 Labour voters intended to turn out. Given their voting intention poll compiled from the same research was similar to outcome, pours some cold water on the 'no swing' to Labour narrative.

That's interesting...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, October 20, 2023, 13:16:45
Good on Italy preempting and banning this horrendous stuff.

https://x.com/clownworld_/status/1715327008064909498?s=61&t=HYPly50GSEZLTKzNdaNp7Q


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, October 20, 2023, 13:36:20
Good on Italy preempting and banning this horrendous stuff.

https://x.com/clownworld_/status/1715327008064909498?s=61&t=HYPly50GSEZLTKzNdaNp7Q

Literally cancelling cultures.

That's a science joke that is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, October 20, 2023, 13:43:01
Indeed, we won't ever know but I'm going to chuck a fiver on a Conservative win at the GE for a laugh as the odds will be decent right now.

Won't be much of a laugh if they get in again I suspect.

Not tempted to go big on the bet then?  :)

Better still, just buy a pint with the stake money.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mooneyraker on Friday, October 20, 2023, 13:44:04
Won't be much a laugh if they get in again I suspect.

Not tempted to go big on the bet then?  :)

Better still, just buy a pint with the stake money.

I'll be sitting pretty with my £55 at least...  :suicide:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, October 20, 2023, 13:51:02
I'll be sitting pretty with my £55 at least...  :suicide:

Yeah, there is that.

Betting on referendum outcomes would be a safer option if going big.
Three UK ones in the last 20 or so years and all with predictable outcomes backed up with a bit of research.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Mooneyraker on Friday, October 20, 2023, 13:54:07
Yeah, there is that.

Betting on referendum outcomes would be a safer option if going big.
Three UK ones in the last 20 or so years and all with predictable outcomes backed up with a bit of research.

Yes, cut out the noise and the Leave vote was much more likely than the bookies made out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Sunday, October 22, 2023, 12:42:46
Don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

This is Irish PM Leo Varadker on his Twitter feed showing his faith in the Covid booster.

Zoom in and see no evidence of a syringe.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: fuzzy on Sunday, October 22, 2023, 13:19:41
Don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

This is Irish PM Leo Varadker on his Twitter feed showing his faith in the Covid booster.

Zoom in and see no evidence of a syringe.


Zoom in and look and the syringe is there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, October 22, 2023, 13:32:59
Don’t know whether to laugh or cry

Or perhaps to go outside and be a normal person rather than spending all day on the internet looking for conspiracies. Just enjoy your life a bit, this level of nonsense and trying to start arguments on the internet all day cannot be making you happy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Sunday, October 22, 2023, 14:09:57
Don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

This is Irish PM Leo Varadker on his Twitter feed showing his faith in the Covid booster.

Zoom in and see no evidence of a syringe.



I wonder what Le Tissier and Rickie Lambert think of this :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Sunday, October 22, 2023, 14:21:46
Don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

This is Irish PM Leo Varadker on his Twitter feed showing his faith in the Covid booster.

Zoom in and see no evidence of a syringe.



No evidence of a syringe, apart from the visible syringe?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, October 22, 2023, 14:28:37
It could be part of a syringe :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Sunday, October 22, 2023, 14:35:06
It could be part of a syringe :D

Yeah, the syringey part.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Sunday, October 22, 2023, 14:43:19
I wonder what Le Tissier and Rickie Lambert think of this :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

That he set up a photo shoot SUPPOSEDLY depicting him getting a covid shot but forgot that when it came to the exact moment the person miming the shot being administered (there is no syringe, don’t forget) there would be photographers there to photograph it. Or something else equally plausible.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, October 22, 2023, 15:05:33
Yeah, the syringey part.

It could just be the inner syringe the bit that pushes out the solution and set up for the camera!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Monday, November 13, 2023, 09:05:06
Braverman sacked


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: joeydubya on Monday, November 13, 2023, 09:07:59
Braverman sacked

The most dangerous person to ever hold office, until the next one


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Monday, November 13, 2023, 09:11:31
The most dangerous person to ever hold office, until the next one
Thats clearly not true.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, November 13, 2023, 09:11:34
And er, David Cameron coming back. It's very EastEnders Christmas special bringing back a character from years ago, isn't it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, November 13, 2023, 09:25:18
The most dangerous person to ever hold office, until the next one
They’re all dangerous. They don’t give a toss about me and you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Monday, November 13, 2023, 09:27:24
And er, David Cameron coming back. It's very EastEnders Christmas special bringing back a character from years ago, isn't it?

How can this happen? He’s not a serving MP?

James Cleverly to be Home Secretary. Christ.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, November 13, 2023, 09:28:18
How can this happen? He’s not a serving MP?

James Cleverly to be Home Secretary. Christ.

You can be a minister from the Lords, it's happened fairly regularly but not often in such a senior role. Yes, that means Lord Cameron...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Monday, November 13, 2023, 09:32:41
He hasnt been knighter though has he? Mental


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, November 13, 2023, 09:34:23
He hasnt been knighter though has he? Mental

Don't have to be, you can go straight in at Lord Tanswell of Tansmedia. There's no need to serve time as an MBE or whatever.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, November 13, 2023, 09:42:48
Braverman was the latest personification of the shift of the Tory Party from the patriotic to the nationalistic.  Ironically, after what she labelled as "hate marchers", to a party of hate.  

That element never held so much influence in the so called "broad church" of the Tory Party.  She and her rump of supporters have made the Party unpalatable to the election-deciding, moderate electorate - in an uncanny parallel to the Corbynista wing of the Labour Party.

It will be interesting to see which way the Tories go after the inevitable election defeat.  It may be that like Labour, post Blair-Brown, they lurch further away from the centre ground.  Hopefully with the same lack of success.  A party fixated on the economy, lower taxes and committed to the actual delivery of public services in the interests of the public rather than personal enrichment would widen their appeal and electability.  



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Monday, November 13, 2023, 09:49:46
Don't have to be, you can go straight in at Lord Tanswell of Tansmedia. There's no need to serve time as an MBE or whatever.

Mind blown!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 13, 2023, 09:53:27
And er, David Cameron coming back. It's very EastEnders Christmas special bringing back a character from years ago, isn't it?

Cameron going into no.10 was very Gazza, 4 pack, chicken and fishing rod wasn't it.

How can this happen? He’s not a serving MP?

James Cleverly to be Home Secretary. Christ.

As others have noted they would have to elevate him to the Lords (and I assume they would need a pretty heavy hitting deputy still sitting in the Commons), several issues remain, a) its not very 'taking back control' to have a senior member of government beyond commons scrutiny and secondly would he even get approval from the HOLAC to go into the Lords after the Greensill scandal?

Remind me how many MP's Sunak has (350+ isn't it) and he apparently doesn't think any of them are good enough to be FS?

He hasnt been knighter though has he? Mental

That really young lass who entirely coincidentally looks a lot like Johnson got into the Lords off the back of a few months maternity cover in no.10 remember.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, November 13, 2023, 09:53:53
Braverman was the latest personification of the shift of the Tory Party from the patriotic to the nationalistic.  Ironically, after what she labelled as "hate marchers", to a party of hate.  

That element never held so much influence in the so called "broad church" of the Tory Party.  She and her rump of supporters have made the Party unpalatable to the election-deciding, moderate electorate - in an uncanny parallel to the Corbynista wing of the Labour Party.

It will be interesting to see which way the Tories go after the inevitable election defeat.  It may be that like Labour, post Blair-Brown, they lurch further away from the centre ground.  Hopefully with the same lack of success.  A party fixated on the economy, lower taxes and committed to the actual delivery of public services in the interests of the public rather than personal enrichment would widen their appeal and electability.  


Politics is sending people to the extremes. You’ve got the right wing in France - le Pen et al - now protesting against anti semitism. Jew hating was always a right wing thing, now it’s a left wing thing. When it comes to the next election who can put their hand on their heart and vote for any of the fuckers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: joeydubya on Monday, November 13, 2023, 09:55:39
The most dangerous person to ever hold office, until the next one

Who we going with instead?

Incitement is a crime - she should be doing time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, November 13, 2023, 09:58:48
Along with thousands of protesters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, November 13, 2023, 10:04:15
Along with thousands of protesters.

Don't disagree, but holding the home secretary to a higher standard than random members of the public doesn't feel particularly controversial.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, November 13, 2023, 10:06:15
Standards in politics - how quaint!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, November 13, 2023, 10:12:18
Politics is sending people to the extremes. You’ve got the right wing in France - le Pen et al - now protesting against anti semitism. Jew hating was always a right wing thing, now it’s a left wing thing. When it comes to the next election who can put their hand on their heart and vote for any of the fuckers.

Not really, the extremes on both sides have always been pretty xenophobic (and many in the middle likewise) and that hasn't changed for donkeys years.

As for the whole politicians being as bad as one another, not sure that's entirely correct (I don't agree with our MP on a lot of things mainly relating to religion, however he and his party are unlikely to ever pursue policies to stop feeding kids in schools or take tents off homeless people so he gets a vote over his opponent here), its rather a narrative being peddled by Tory supporters who have little more to fling at Labour apart from culture stuff which despite much of the media's desperate attempts most of the population (thankfully) don't actually think is happening.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, November 13, 2023, 12:58:06
Cameron. Holy pig fuck. fuck off


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, November 13, 2023, 13:06:32
So we’ve got a PM nobody has voted for and now a Foreign Secretary nobody has voted into government.

It’s pure piss taking. Why bother with elections at all?

All governments are on the same side - and it’s not ours.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Monday, November 13, 2023, 13:09:48
If you are going to drag someone in off the street, you could have at least given it to Judith Chalmers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, November 13, 2023, 13:12:16
Rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic springs to mind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, November 13, 2023, 13:18:00
Problem us, we’re all going down with the ship!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Monday, November 13, 2023, 14:13:34
So, let me get this right.

Cameron sits in the House of Lords to enable him to become Foreign Secretary and in doing so he will not have to face questions from elected MPs in the House of Commons.

Democracy in action!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Monday, November 13, 2023, 14:14:39
An opportunity to bring Cruella back into the fold as Health Secretary?
It will be passed up but would have been hugely amusing.
Maybe not for those on a waiting list perhaps.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bedford Red on Monday, November 13, 2023, 14:20:19
Rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic springs to mind.

That's what i was thinking earlier. At least they'll all be out of a job in a few months (hopefully)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 16:53:32
The new Health Secretary’s husband is MD of British Sugar.

No conflict there, then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 17:25:43
Helps the medicine go down, obviously.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Wednesday, November 15, 2023, 23:37:50
No mention about the Labour Party tearing itself apart over Gaza?

Frustrating to see several of their shadow cabinet being unable to show unity. Surely, they have to see the bigger picture? They could potentially do a lot of good if they stuck together. No one can win every battle in life, it’s about picking and choosing the battles you can win and holding steady on those you can’t.

If they can’t unite in opposition, then will the electorate trust them? Or think they are just the same as the jokers currently in power?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, November 16, 2023, 06:09:01
Personally, when it comes to the next GE the vast majority of people won’t give Gaza/Israel a second thought when casting their vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Thursday, November 16, 2023, 07:17:53
Personally, when it comes to the next GE the vast majority of people won’t give Gaza/Israel a second thought when casting their vote.

Exactly this. Just when the Labour Party get themselves in a position to possibly challenge at the next GE it appears they are now going to self implode over issues that in other countries that by and large the majority of the electorate have no interest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Thursday, November 16, 2023, 08:29:46
I don't know why Labour whipped MPs to vote against the motion. Given the tories were against it and seemed united, it seems unnecessary and has only led to them being seen as shambolic.

I know this is incredibly niave, because they'd find a way anyway, but I also don't know why we allow a system that forces MPs to vote against their conscience or their constituents interests.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cookie on Thursday, November 16, 2023, 08:34:52
Sacked for calling for a ceasefire. Starmer is a tool, well done to the 56 who defied this shitty whip.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, November 16, 2023, 08:59:42
Question.

Even if the UK called for a ceasefire what good would that actually do? Can’t imagine Israel would take a blind bit of notice.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, November 16, 2023, 09:05:59
Question.

Even if the UK called for a ceasefire what good would that actually do? Can’t imagine Israel would take a blind bit of notice.

I broadly agree with the point you're making, but to try and answer the question, I assume that advocates of this sort of thing see it as a first step towards (if the ceasefire didn't happen) then looking at diplomatic penalties (sanctions, breaking of diplomatic ties) with Israel, in a sort of geopolitical version of counting to ten in the hope your child starts behaving before you have to do any discipline.

Cynically, a few of the Labour MPs who resigned represent constituencies with much higher than average numbers of Muslim voters, who (not all, but a fair chunk) absolutely do care about this in the way that other voters perhaps don't.

Generally my thoughts on this are that it is representative of how difficult foreign policy is - parties are expected to have a position on just about everything, but almost all of it is out of their control and really fucking complicated. I suspect that's part of why the Ukraine/Russia thing was loudly supported by basically everyone, because it's one of those rare foreign policy issues where one side is demonstrably bad and the other is demonstrably relatively good (unless you're a total wingnut anyway) rather than being complex shades of grey.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, November 16, 2023, 09:12:04
So the sort of things that haven’t made Russia stop? All virtue signalling, really.

Huff and puff that achieves nothing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, November 16, 2023, 09:21:49
Labour split again? There's a surprise.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, November 16, 2023, 09:42:12
So the sort of things that haven’t made Russia stop? All virtue signalling, really.

Huff and puff that achieves nothing.

I don't really like the term virtue signalling purely because I think people mean different things by it. For me, sanctions/economic penalties aren't that - you can't "stop" Russia (or anyone else) doing something, but sanctions mean there's a cost to them of doing so. Obviously it's a not a perfect example, but it's the equivalent of having fines in place for speeding or parking illegally - people will still do them, but there's a cost to doing it.

Foreign policy generally is difficult because our government isn't really in control - you can call for stuff, you can have diplomatic/trade penalties or you can (ultimately) start dropping bombs. None of those are perfect solutions - calls/demands are generally ignored, trade penalties have an impact domestically as well as on your target, and taking your country to war or military action short of outright war is... a risky proposition at best.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Thursday, November 16, 2023, 10:37:39
Question.

Even if the UK called for a ceasefire what good would that actually do? Can’t imagine Israel would take a blind bit of notice.
They wouldn't but it would possibly seen as a show of humanity. Lord knows we need some humanity in our politicians to be honest


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, November 16, 2023, 13:13:46
I don't know why Labour whipped MPs to vote against the motion. Given the tories were against it and seemed united, it seems unnecessary and has only led to them being seen as shambolic.

To show they can put a united front with other major allies - voting as if in Government.

I don't subscribe to it - but  that's what was said against a free vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Cookie on Thursday, November 16, 2023, 18:58:13
More likely because that's the policy the sponsors of the Labour Party supports.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Thursday, November 16, 2023, 20:23:12
ok , Russia buys loads of shit off Iran, Iran supports Hamas And Hezbollah, Russia ain't doing well in Ukraine.
Therefore, Russia has a word with Iran, Hamas suicide mission against Israel
Takes the pressure off the war in Ukraine

Invade Iran.

I should be a diplomat! Sorted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Thursday, November 16, 2023, 20:44:08
ok , Russia buys loads of shit off Iran, Iran supports Hamas And Hezbollah, Russia ain't doing well in Ukraine.
Therefore, Russia has a word with Iran, Hamas suicide mission against Israel
Takes the pressure off the war in Ukraine

Invade Iran.

I should be a diplomat! Sorted.

Not far off I suspect - Although invading Iran and you being a diplomat are unlikely!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, November 16, 2023, 21:04:34
8 billion people on the planet ruled and fucked over by a couple of thousand despotic, bloodthirsty, megalomaniacs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, November 22, 2023, 13:32:53
Big pre-election giveaway budget (well, Autumn statement) today. National Insurance cut of 2% seems to be the big headline - about £450 less tax over a year for someone earning around £35k. Not unwelcome at all but a bit odd considering this same government put it up 1.25% all of 12 months ago as the Health and Social Care levy.

It's the natural cycle of things that taxes go up early in a governmental period and then down again right before an election to try and buy a few votes, but it does seem particularly obvious this time around.

Unless I'm missing something, no inheritance tax cut that had been rumoured.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, November 22, 2023, 14:56:35
Yeah, election footing started. I'm sure they are keeping their powder dry for later too.

NI cut is useful, but tax thresholds haven't changed with pay increases so its not clear cut in real terms.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, February 9, 2024, 10:29:02
What do people think about the Biden/Trump "are they too old" thing that's being brought up after the recent investigation has found that Biden mishandled top secret files and has struggled to remember certain things. (I saw that he called the president of France Mitterand recently)

Obviously age should be no barrier in employment, but when you have an 81 year old man bumbling about in the most powerful job on the planet, and his opponent is a few years younger, questions have to be asked. That means Biden will be 85 by the end of his second term if he gets elected.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: fuzzy on Friday, February 9, 2024, 11:07:26
leaders of governments or countries should be subject to annual medical assesments to ensure they are physically and mentally up to the job.

I suspect a few would fall foul of the mentally up to it examination.

If they're sharp enoughthen fuck it-let them stay in post. Sometimes decades of experience trumps (no pun intended) youthful exuberance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, February 9, 2024, 11:18:36
Of course there should be an age limit. Surely nobody believes Biden is anything but a puppet with his strings being pulled. For a supposed democracy it’s distressing to watch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, February 9, 2024, 11:35:28
Of course there should be an age limit. Surely nobody believes Biden is anything but a puppet with his strings being pulled. For a supposed democracy it’s distressing to watch.

By whom and to what purpose? It's not exactly like Biden is a uniquely popular figurehead. The comparison I guess is to Reagan who seemed to have Alzheimer's during his second term and is fondly remembered by many Americans - if the government behind them continues to function just fine then it really is just a figurehead I guess.

It's utterly baffling that the US has somehow got into position of having Biden v Trump again, but I also can't really understand the supposed equivalence of a fairly nice guy who was once competent and is now a bit senile vs everything that is wrong with Trump.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, February 9, 2024, 11:48:23
Depends if you think it does function fine. If it was me I’d like to know who is making executive decisions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Friday, February 9, 2024, 12:49:25
Depends if you think it does function fine. If it was me I’d like to know who is making executive decisions.

Historically it's been Putin.
I guess that the Chinese guy is calling the shots now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, February 9, 2024, 12:49:43
It's really quite odd, being a local observer these days.

Biden is clearly like a pleasant old grandad these days.  Forgetting where the bathroom is, spending time with e little ones etc.  I have no idea how the inner workings of the party haven't managed to find an alternative and convince him to bow out gracefully.

Trump is a parody of his 2016 version - how on earth can anyone think he'd be fit to run a Country?  For all Biden's obvious push towards his later years, Trump is also all over the shop verbally these days - basically he's like that same Grandad but when he has had a few too many Sherry's and wakes up angry and racist.

Both will be well beyond the average life expectancy of a man in the USA during their term.  That alone seems a weird thing to have as your leader - someone for whom the odds suggest there is a fair chance of death occurring.  Leadership should probably come with a degree of stability, as a desire, not death as a flip of the coin in the next four years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, February 9, 2024, 13:08:17
Obviously you’ll know better than me, but 2 questions.

Why are there no younger candidates for both parties, and if there are, indeed, such candidates why don’t their respective parties vote for them?

Trump can hardly use the senile old man, Sleepy Joe, jibe when he’s not much better.

What did you make of that Tucker Carlson interview with Putin.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, February 9, 2024, 13:38:34
Tucker is a click baiting, audience seeking dick - I'm not even sure he believes any of what he says.  He just identifies a highly controversial niche (a big niche, which is of course an oxymoron) and then panders to it.

The Democrats are basically holding their positions, knowing Trump was going to get selected again.  They don't fancy the very tiring fight against rabid stupidness.  keep their powder dry for four years.

The Republicans lost their Party to the weird combination of Evangelical Christian Right and Populists.  They really shouldn't agree on much, but they combined to over throw the old school Free Market groups.  The system here of Primaries is what they hooked into - meaning those most angry will turn out to vote.  Spread fear and "others", and those two groups turn out.  Trump does a good job of pretending he is fighting the establishment, sprinkles in some fear and nobody can fight him off without trying to be the same - and why vote for a copy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Friday, February 9, 2024, 13:49:03
The thing I find wild about MAGA is that it's headed by a supposed billionaire whose campaign is propped up by other super wealthy types and is looking to empower the American (native, no i mean white) working man, by cutting taxes and regulations for the mega corporations.

It's a fascinating dialing up for the temporarily embarrassed millionaire.

From the outsider -
Biden is in power because he stands for nothing. He's down the middle on everything and presumably the "left" think he'll appeal to floating voters and never trumpers.
Trump is the antithesis of this, as he at least has opinions he says strongly.

Both are fucking awful, Biden is the least shit option


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, February 9, 2024, 13:56:51
There is a very strong anti-Government volume of voters here.  People who likely did not vote, or held their noses and voted Republican (in the past 30 years, but Democrat before that when they were the racist party in the South).  They see Govt's and corporations, and big Cities, as trying to seek control of their lives.  The old pioneer spirit is still alive and well - the bedrock of the American dream to an extent, that I can make it on my own if I try hard enough, but I should be left alone to try.

Trump was a good front of house face for some political types that had tapped into that and the rising irritation that the Govt was siding with all these new fangled things (progressive thoughts) and were coming for their way of life.  Bit of the Evangelical world view link into this - they are coming to take your right to express you religion away from you, just like they already took the right to life away by allowing abortions.  Populism fits in snugly - they came for your jobs and sent them oversees, they are coming for the rest of your jobs by pushing climate change etc.  Trump has no shame, just wants to be relevant and talked about, so he's always been game for a conspiracy theory and getting on TV.  They used him, he used them, and here we are.  Everyone sort of knows the hypocrisy, but they still see Trump as wlling to have that fight for them anyway.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, February 9, 2024, 14:00:45
The odd thing, for me, is where on earth the old school Republicans have gone, in voting terms.  I presume many still vote R, because that is what they have always done.  I assume some have stopped voting, because they are not going to vote for a D.

The reason Biden won last time is another group decided to get involved - the Suburban Mum.  They hadn't voted before, or just voted R because it helped their life stay pretty nice.  Trump really annoys them and while they are generally more inclined to be R based on financial policies, they are much more likely to be on the side of many Progressive ideas.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Friday, February 9, 2024, 14:08:23
What did you make of that Tucker Carlson interview with Putin.
I liked that he used the opportunity to ask for Evan Gerahkovich to be allowed to return to the USA, i am sad about all the other stuff


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, February 9, 2024, 14:11:46
Some day soon, the penny will drop in the US.  How, in a vastly-resourced country of 320m+ people, can the choice for President come down to 2 visibly deteriorating, mentally fragile old men?  What kind of system allows this?  (Isn't the US system meant to be about 'checks & balances'?  Where the f*** are they, then?)  There must be millions of smarter, better qualified candidates for high office.

Forget the 'land of opportunity' adage, or the line that anyone can grow up to be President.  The US political system - more than any other (incl, incredibly, ours) - is ossified.  It's founded on vested interests and obscene wealth.  If you're not independently wealthy, you're disqualified.

Take a step back.  In years from now, I suspect that the state of political discourse in the US - and elsewhere in the West, to a degree - will be seen as part & parcel of a period of Western decline that began some time around the end of the last century.  Massive change needed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Friday, February 9, 2024, 19:14:22
Ronald Reagan was not exactly compos mentis, so they have had since 1989 to change it,


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, February 9, 2024, 19:22:20
They haven’t always been old :D

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj82_70_Z6EAxVjWEEAHR-mD-EQFnoECA4QAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FList_of_presidents_of_the_United_States_by_age%23%3A~%3Atext%3DAge%2520of%2520presidents%2C-Age%2520of%2520presidents%26text%3DThe%2520youngest%2520person%2520to%2520become%2CJoe%2520Biden%252C%2520at%2520age%252078.&usg=AOvVaw0x2rZYjjXvHufcw7BV7rH_&opi=89978449


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, February 14, 2024, 17:30:26
David Cameron makes my skin crawl. Slimy-tongued lying toad.


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, February 14, 2024, 19:37:30
that pig fucker gambled on something he didn't believe in just to shut down dissent in his party - and lost


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Legends-Lounge on Wednesday, February 14, 2024, 19:38:18
that pig fucker gambled on something he didn't believe in just to shut down dissent in his party - and lost

Unlike that cunt Blair who bottled it and lied.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Wednesday, February 14, 2024, 20:10:54
Slimy-tongued lying toad.

that pig fucker

cunt Blair

And all of them are/were more trustworthy than Boris.

I still maintain that anyone who actually wants to be a politician should automatically be prevented from being one


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, February 14, 2024, 20:23:23
RE: USA Presidential Candidates and current standing {just about} President.

I thought it was pretty common knowledge that Kamala Harris was the one really running the Biden era?

Talking of Harris and other relatively influential women in the USA, it's probably about time they had a woman running the joint.

Surely one of;

Kamala Harris
Michelle Obama
or even
Condoleezza Rice

Would be much better {and possibly much more healthy and coherent} options at this moment in time?! Just no one tell Hillary Clinton...

I do note that from the above, Rice has never really been interested in running for President but she has been Sec. of State. Likewise, Harris is Vice President currently in office and Obama was first lady and seemed to have the ability to cool many tensions just by making a public speech.

Similarly with Obama though, she seemingly is more of a soft campaigner/activist rather a Presidential candidate and also doesn't want the baggage that comes with the job.

Out of those three, that leaves Harris. But I'm not sure how USA politics works? Can she stand for President whilst in office as Vice President? Effectively running against her own boss?

By the way, I'm not saying any of those {or even disregarding Obama and Rice} would do a great job but they surely would be better than what is seemingly the top two candidates? I'm really basing it on the current leadership bar for Presidency in the USA is at about 2cm high - and that's being generous to ''Grandpa Delulu'' and the ''Pussy Grabber''.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, February 14, 2024, 21:44:52
Anyone with sufficient cash to burn can spunk it on running for the Presidency, subject to meeting the necessary requirements (Over 35, USA native citizen etc.).

To get on the ticket as either the Republican or Democratic nominee they need to win a sufficient percentage of Delegate votes as the respective party conventions, which are normally gained by winning State Primaries.  Much like the Electoral College, the result of each primary is supposed to directly lead to the delegates voting at the convention accordingly.  Sometimes, the delegates can go a different way, if something catastrophic has happened in the meantime.

Harris has about as much chance as I have of winning, if she stood, and I'm not eligible.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, February 14, 2024, 22:42:35

Harris has about as much chance as I have of winning, if she stood, and I'm not eligible.


Thanks for the USA election process info - so finances allowing, it's relatively free reign.

I apologise regarding Harris. I've been largely ignorant to most of what has been going on since she has been in office. And of what I have seen from time to time usually just focuses on Biden or the baffling {to me} reemergence of Trump.

Which lead me then to me questioning, why then would Harris not even get close to winning? Has she really been that bad? By default she takes over if Biden is unwell/dies/can no longer serve etc. So is she really a poor/awful politician? I can't say I've seen {in what is limited, either by my own lack of viewing or not as much coverage} much bad press about her. Alternatively, is it in part because she's both a female and person of colour which holds her back in the still much white privileged and male dominated free world?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, February 14, 2024, 22:55:40
She has essentially managed to be a non-entity, enabling the Republicans to call her what they wish and for Democrats to largely forget about her.  What she has done in public has, mostly, been a bit error prone.  I think she did well in the previous election Primaries because she debated well and wouldn't back down, but she does not strike me as a good politician.  Right now, the Democrats are letting Biden go because nobody else fancies the career ending prospect of losing to Trump.  They will keep their powder dry and go for it in 4 years time.  If the current trend remains, then it will Gavin Newsome who takes the front runners seat I think.  Four years is a long time, but no idea who the Republicans go for then.  Most of this years crop showed themselves to be pretty limp.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Qunk on Thursday, February 15, 2024, 07:12:44
UK entered recession at the end of 2023. I wonder if this’ll bring forward our GE?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Sunday, February 18, 2024, 09:53:56
I was listening to some new Minister for Illegal Immigration still banging on about Rwanda.

Just how do they think a couple of hundred illegal migrants are going to happily board a plane to dump them in Rwanda?

If there is to be site outside of the UK to process claims surely it should be in France.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bennett on Sunday, February 18, 2024, 10:42:41
Gotta have a willing partner and an incentive to have a "processing centre". You'd hope Rwanda didn't just got a VIP lane to be our processing partner and alternatives were looked at (the UK wouldn't have been too bad an option imo, it also supports create jobs)

You do also need to have a legal process that doesn't involve being thought up by Schrödinger, to claim asylum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, February 20, 2024, 15:49:32
Net zero me hairy arse



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Tuesday, February 20, 2024, 19:21:43
Australia "saving the world"🤔


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Tuesday, February 20, 2024, 19:25:24
Arthur Sargill wouldn’t be happy :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, February 20, 2024, 19:41:33
Talking of Scargill, who saw that fantastic documentary about the miner’s strike the other evening. What a bunch of bastards those coppers were.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Tuesday, February 20, 2024, 19:45:36
Talking of Scargill, who saw that fantastic documentary about the miner’s strike the other evening. What a bunch of bastards those coppers were.

If you went to Mansfield you wouldn’t need a documentary to tell you that


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Tuesday, February 20, 2024, 19:46:17
If you went to Mansfield you wouldn’t need a documentary to tell you that

1986 :clap:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Tuesday, February 20, 2024, 19:50:28
Talking of Scargill, who saw that fantastic documentary about the miner’s strike the other evening. What a bunch of bastards those coppers were.
Yeah,I saw it. Still outraged by that


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, February 20, 2024, 19:52:04
If you went to Mansfield you wouldn’t need a documentary to tell you that
I was there. Think they were practising on us - or just venting their anger.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, February 20, 2024, 20:08:45
Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey
Talking of Scargill, who saw that fantastic documentary about the miner’s strike the other evening. What a bunch of bastards those coppers were.
I saw a three part one and they didn't come across great in that either.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, February 23, 2024, 14:54:11
Typical  ::)

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/24139584.swindon-council-tax-rise-maximum-amount-april/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, February 23, 2024, 14:56:25
 Value for money :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, February 23, 2024, 15:06:29
The £2,650 I'm going to have to shell out suggests otherwise  :crash:
I think they've only managed 1 bin collection on the right day since Xmas. Crap service.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, February 23, 2024, 15:14:32
You’re lucky mine will be £3000 :wotjump:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Friday, February 23, 2024, 15:47:23
It’s because people have spent the past 14 years voting for a government which has systemically cut funding to local councils leaving them unable to offer the bare essential services hth


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Friday, February 23, 2024, 16:15:32
Going to be very interesting to see how different the next government will be and how much better off we will all be. (I suspect it will be like going from Power to Morfuni)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, February 23, 2024, 16:26:37
Let’s be honest. I’ve been through a whole host of governments of either Labour or,  mostly, Tory. There’s no fucking difference as far as my life has been. There’s no way I’ll vote Tory but Labour shouldn’t just get my vote on the basis they’re not the Tories.

Big dilemma for many people - who can you vote for that’ll actually make a difference? None of them is the sorry answer. They’ve all been corrupted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, February 23, 2024, 16:27:28
It’s because people have spent the past 14 years voting for a government which has systemically cut funding to local councils leaving them unable to offer the bare essential services hth

No shit  :sherlock:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, February 23, 2024, 16:28:37
Let’s be honest. I’ve been through a whole host of governments of either Labour or,  mostly, Tory. There’s no fucking difference as far as my life has been. There’s no way I’ll vote Tory but Labour shouldn’t just get my vote on the basis they’re not the Tories.

I hear this a lot and I'm always a bit confused by it. Things were miles fucking better between 1997-2010 domestically weren't they? There are definitely huge things to dislike over Blair's foreign policy and a bit about how investment was funded/PFI, but public services worked a billion times better than they do now for the most part. People seem to act like public services have been falling apart for decades, but they really, really weren't until Osborne cut funding to everything.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, February 23, 2024, 16:28:43
Let’s be honest. I’ve been through a whole host of governments of either Labour or,  mostly, Tory. There’s no fucking difference as far as my life has been. There’s no way I’ll vote Tory but Labour shouldn’t just get my vote on the basis they’re not the Tories.

Big dilemma for many people - who can you vote for that’ll actually make a difference? None of them is the sorry answer. They’ve all been corrupted.

There's no difference when either are in power, but let the right and the left argue the toss about who is better  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, February 23, 2024, 16:29:43
I hear this a lot and I'm always a bit confused by it. Things were miles fucking better between 1997-2010 domestically weren't they? There are definitely huge things to dislike over Blair's foreign policy and a bit about how investment was funded/PFI, but public services worked a billion times better than they do now for the most part. People seem to act like public services have been falling apart for decades, but they really, really weren't until Osborne cut funding to everything.

Quite possibly down to the global position as a whole?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Friday, February 23, 2024, 16:32:53
I hear this a lot and I'm always a bit confused by it. Things were miles fucking better between 1997-2010 domestically weren't they? There are definitely huge things to dislike over Blair's foreign policy and a bit about how investment was funded/PFI, but public services worked a billion times better than they do now for the most part. People seem to act like public services have been falling apart for decades, but they really, really weren't until Osborne cut funding to everything.
But didn't he do that because he inherited a massive debt?



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, February 23, 2024, 16:35:11
I hear this a lot and I'm always a bit confused by it. Things were miles fucking better between 1997-2010 domestically weren't they? There are definitely huge things to dislike over Blair's foreign policy and a bit about how investment was funded/PFI, but public services worked a billion times better than they do now for the most part. People seem to act like public services have been falling apart for decades, but they really, really weren't until Osborne cut funding to everything.
Things, generally, were miles better years ago. Always been the case. Things are just steadily declining year on year. Not just services or living standards but everything. Nothing has changed for the better.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, February 23, 2024, 16:38:26
But didn't he do that because he inherited a massive debt?

That was certainly his argument for austerity, yes. Here's a nice chart of UK debt to GDP (which is probably more useful for historic comparison than the debt number):

https://www.statista.com/statistics/282841/debt-as-gdp-uk/

Probably not a surprise that the peak after WW2 dwarfs anything else. There is a jump around the credit crunch 2008/9ish, which I guess is the "massive debt" but they certainly haven't made it better whilst also making all the things you spend debt on significantly worse. Covid also an external shock and lead to a further jump, I'm not going to blame Tory economics for Covid happening, that has hit everywhere, but they basically spent 2011-2020 not even trying to grow the economy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, February 23, 2024, 16:39:36
Agree with that last point Nemo.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, February 23, 2024, 16:40:51
The country is like a football club that's been Asset stripped.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!pp
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, February 23, 2024, 16:43:34
Feels like the entire way the economy runs is a giant Ponzi scheme. We’re getting scammed!

Bring basic services back under government control - water, energy, transport.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Friday, February 23, 2024, 16:54:19
The country is over populated with too many spongers bleeding us dry.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, February 23, 2024, 16:56:24
Yeah. It’s all his fault.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Friday, February 23, 2024, 18:25:14
There are too many people in this country not contributing but taking everything out including use of public services

Just ask yourselves what proportion of the working age adult population are net contributors in terms of tax/NI- or they pay more than they get back in benefits/consume in public services. Bet it’s not a high proportion and there’s the problem.

I don’t include pensioners in that as yes they need more from the NHS for example but have worked for up to 50 years


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Friday, February 23, 2024, 23:41:22

There are too many people in this country not contributing but taking everything out including use of public services

Just ask yourselves what proportion of the working age adult population are net contributors in terms of tax/NI- or they pay more than they get back in benefits/consume in public services. Bet it’s not a high proportion and there’s the problem.


I think sometimes it is easy to only judge tax on earnings but tbh, there are also plenty of ''hidden'' taxes in every day purchases. Like fuel, it might not be a ''tax'' that it deducted from our income and it is of course a lifestyle choice {a pretty popular one} for method of transport but we all know the tax on that is passed onto the consumer. Like wise with many foods too. So many people are probably paying a tax offset that they don't really consider.

Let's also not get too much into energy and other household utilities. Yes, I have a fair idea of how the energy industry works but we shouldn't really be creating a divisive argument amongst the masses {I'm alright jack vs super scroungers vs average joe}; not when these companies are making astronomical and frankly obscene profits. This is something any government could change and I don't buy that it would deter investors. They're making shitloads as it is. Time to tighten the belt on that area, especially when many of the aforementioned masses, actually are genuinely struggling, or having to make conscious choices when it comes to heating their households.

Any relative austere times to a national economy should never pit society against each other, they should in fact be uniting as a consensus but I do think there is a societal issue in this country where mini ''class'' divides are created amongst ourselves across society. Yet in reality, there is not a lot between these perceived ''classes'' other than who has a better credit rating or something.

In the main, and I don't know the complete data, but I think there are something like 25 - 30 million UK taxpayers. Paying anything from 20 - 45 percent income tax on anything over c13k GBP. I would say there's probably not a massive minus when it comes to what people put in to what they take out. There will be some outliers either way for sure, but most average/healthy/boring lolz people will probably put in more than they take out.

I don't agree with your opening statement though but I would be happy if you were to provide a paper/journal link that backed it up. Especially when disregarding pensioners and people non-adults with the focus primarily on working age individuals.

Here's a couple to back up my thoughts that we definitely pay in more than take out over the course of a lifetime:

https://ifs.org.uk/news/more-nine-ten-individuals-pay-more-taxes-they-receive-social-security-over-their-lifetime

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/redistribution-lifetime-perspective



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Saturday, February 24, 2024, 00:12:36
That’s why there were hoping Covid would take out a few more pensioners than it did.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Saturday, February 24, 2024, 11:58:50

I don't agree with your opening statement though but I would be happy if you were to provide a paper/journal link that backed it up. Especially when disregarding pensioners and people non-adults with the focus primarily on working age individuals.

Here's a couple to back up my thoughts that we definitely pay in more than take out over the course of a lifetime:

https://ifs.org.uk/news/more-nine-ten-individuals-pay-more-taxes-they-receive-social-security-over-their-lifetime

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/redistribution-lifetime-perspective

Great reply. I was also going to ask for some sources from Outletred but I'm pretty sure it's just an opinion with no basis in fact.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Saturday, February 24, 2024, 12:17:36
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EOfoJH4WoAAeM-K.jpg)

That's exactly what the elite and government want you to do.
Blame those less fortunate.
Instead, focus your ire on the tax dodging billionaires who are the real problem.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Saturday, February 24, 2024, 12:56:37
Bernie Ecclestone is a prime example😁


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, March 6, 2024, 13:57:12
Budget day, last budget before the election would normally be giveaway day for whoever the government of the day are trying to buy a few votes.

Not a huge amount in it, another cut to National Insurance, but no rise to income tax thresholds which feels like it'll probably balance out for most earners. Otherwise a bit of fiddling at the margins. Main winners I suppose are motorists with an extended cut to fuel duty, but that tax has been not rising as it's meant to for about a decade now so not sure people will really notice. Anyone see anything interest in it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Wobbly Bob on Wednesday, March 6, 2024, 14:34:47
Rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

The extra £400 odd increase in annual beer allowance is welcome.

I guess that they'll look to cling on until October time now & hope that "the plan" will save them.

We appear to be a stagNation.
Not alone in that though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, March 6, 2024, 15:37:14
What needs addressing is Council Tax. Was reading about getting away from it being based on the house but on disposable income of the inhabitants. 3% was the figure used, so an annual take home of £30,000 would be £900 per year, £100,000 would be £3000. More you have the more you pay. Seems fair.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, March 6, 2024, 15:40:52
What needs addressing is Council Tax. Was reading about getting away from it being based on the house but on disposable income of the inhabitants. 3% was the figure used, so an annual take home of £30,000 would be £900 per year, £100,000 would be £3000. More you have the more you pay. Seems fair.

Isn't that... income tax?

I think there's a lot to be said for tax simplification, but there needs to be some tax on wealth as well as on income.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, March 6, 2024, 15:45:08
This is the article

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/01/local-democracy-disposable-income-council-tax


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, March 6, 2024, 16:48:42
Budget day, last budget before the election would normally be giveaway day for whoever the government of the day are trying to buy a few votes.

Not a huge amount in it, another cut to National Insurance, but no rise to income tax thresholds which feels like it'll probably balance out for most earners. Otherwise a bit of fiddling at the margins. Main winners I suppose are motorists with an extended cut to fuel duty, but that tax has been not rising as it's meant to for about a decade now so not sure people will really notice. Anyone see anything interest in it?

I saw Tory MP Gullis stating on twitter yesterday that we could all enjoy being £16.50 better off every time we fill up the fuel tanks on our cars. Yippee


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Wednesday, March 6, 2024, 18:07:40
I saw Tory MP Gullis stating on twitter yesterday that we could all enjoy being £16.50 better off every time we fill up the fuel tanks on our cars. Yippee

Have they cut duty on fuel?

It sounds a bit like Clem Morfuni accounting


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, March 6, 2024, 18:09:26
Have they cut duty on fuel?

It sounds a bit like Clem Morfuni accounting

There was some kind of obscure logic that was being used for sure. Here is it;

People should read the article to see where the £16.50 figure comes from👇

“If the duty had been allowed to rise in line with inflation since 2010, Britain’s drivers would now be paying 93.47p on a litre of fuel rather than the current 52.95p once VAT is included.

“The Centre for Economics and Business Research calculates that would have been around 47 per cent higher representing 30p more a litre — a saving of around £16.50 when filling up an average 55-litre family car.”


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BambooToTheFuture on Wednesday, March 6, 2024, 18:37:13
They're so generous aren't they  ;D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, March 6, 2024, 19:41:10
In the midst of all this the taxpayer is paying £15k because my MP libelled some people and got done.  She libelled them but apparently we have to pay.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, March 7, 2024, 15:47:36
If you taxed every Billionaire in the UK so they only had £1bn you would get £1.1tn, an entire year’s worth of tax revenue.

It would affect only 173 People.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Riddick on Thursday, March 7, 2024, 15:55:15
If you taxed every Billionaire in the UK so they only had £1bn you would get £1.1tn, an entire year’s worth of tax revenue.

It would affect only 173 People.

Imagine what you could do if you took more tax (not all) from the 17300 people that have over 10m in assets.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, March 7, 2024, 16:28:13
i was always one that was OK with paying my fair share, never had a problem with the 40% bracket for example.  But, too much focus is put on this area - it's never easy to implement Tax Rises, not without political fallout, and like it or not, the rich find ways around it.

Instead, I've always been a proponent of focusing much more on the efficiency with which services are delivered by Govt agencies.  I'm not going STFC route here and suggesting it's all about wasting money on freeloaders, no, the processes designed to administer services are cumbersome and bureaucratic beyond belief.  Reduce the need to spend, not the services provided, and you'll limit the tax burden.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, March 8, 2024, 09:05:31


Instead, I've always been a proponent of focusing much more on the efficiency with which services are delivered by Govt agencies.  I'm not going STFC route here and suggesting it's all about wasting money on freeloaders, no, the processes designed to administer services are cumbersome and bureaucratic beyond belief.  Reduce the need to spend, not the services provided, and you'll limit the tax burden.

I whole heartedly agree.  But easier said than done.  Especially when policy seems to be determined by winning daily or weekly headlines against the Opposition and by the relatively clandestine appeasement of demands coming within the Party from its various factions and donors.  The visible part of the political iceberg and the invisible part of it..

In the Budget, the Conservatives are following their random fiscal rules by balancing the books over a totally unpredictable 5 year period - as a result of unspecified "efficiency savings".  You'd think they'd have had time to make most of the efficiency savings required by now.  Spending on the NHS is mushrooming whilst other sectors such as social care have already been squeezed bone dry with local authorities left heading towards insolvency.  

Not only are tax free bands frozen in Income Tax (as well as Inheritance Tax) to offset the NI cut but Council Tax is increasing more than ever.  Economic growth could be a panacea but beyond the realms of pure academia, that cannot be achieved without increased (or "better managed") immigration.  But parties feed fantasies about cutting down immigration whilst avoiding any frank acknowledgement of the damage caused by the losses of the Single Market inc. the falling number of EU migrants - who had been of net fiscal benefit to the UK in contrast to non-EU migrants.  And the opposition parties all connive in fantasy economics.

Instead of lapping up the blaming of others, perhaps the problem lies partly in ourselves and our constantly voting for false prophets.  I hated many facets of Margaret Thatcher but she led by conviction and, economically, was not afraid to to apply "home economics" to the public purse.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, March 8, 2024, 09:12:25
They seem to spend more time slagging each other off than moving this country forward. That's when there is actually someone in the commons. Always seems to be about 5 people and one geezer picking his nose.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Friday, March 8, 2024, 09:27:48
They seem to spend more time slagging each other off than moving this country forward. That's when there is actually someone in the commons. Always seems to be about 5 people and one geezer picking his nose.
Much like the STFC boardroom then.  >:(


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, March 8, 2024, 09:31:53
I think the ‘West’ - however you want to define it - is in its death throes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Wednesday, March 13, 2024, 15:20:05
Foreign govts face ban on owning British newspapers - effectively blocking Abu Dhabi-led Telegraph takeover.

Crikey, something sensible!