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Non-Footy Forum => The Nevillew General Discussion Forum => Topic started by: herthab on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 15:23:35



Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 15:23:35
There's been a real lack of any political debates on her for a while now, which is a pity as I used to enjoy reading the informed(?) opinions of such a great cross section of society. Let's face it, the only thing we all have in common is our football club so opinions will also vary considerably, as will our political stances.

As much as Russell Brand comes across as a bit of a tit, I'm finding myself agreeing with a lot of what he says; the current political parties are all unappealing and uninspiring. Abstaining from the process however can't be a solution, can it?

What is the single biggest issue facing The UK and how would you like it addressed?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 15:33:57
Ban all political debate?

What actually changes when there is a change of government?  To the average person I guess not a lot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 15:35:35
As much as Russell Brand comes across as a bit of a tit, I'm finding myself agreeing with a lot of what he says

More worryingly, a lot of people feel the same way about Nigel Farage.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Utter Kant on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 15:54:54
The biggest single issue the UK is facing right now is public apathy. If people are not informed about our politics then how can it be reformed? Many people seem to have little/no idea (or interest) about the way politics works, nor what the consequences of an alternative political landscape would be. Proper, comprehensive change, regardless of what that change is, will not arrive unless people become more engaged and politically informed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 16:00:04
How about the fact that our electoral system has a pretty solid chance of leaving UKIP (13% in the polls) and the Greens (9%) with 5-6 seats between them while even the zombie-like Lib Dems will probably retain about 30 seats on 9% of the vote because their vote is nicely concentrated?

The system is insane. I realise that AV got rejected in a referendum but that was only a marginally less shit system.

It just doesn't seem democratic in any sense that there's such a ludicrous disparity between the % of the vote and the number of seats allocated.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 16:14:14
^^ which is why I dislike all things political. That,  and the arrogance of people who think they are right about absolutely everything (voters and politicians)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 16:16:19
Also, career politicians.

The fact that the guy in charge of public finances is "qualified" to do this because he's got a 2:1 in Modern History quite frankly scares me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 16:17:55
What is the single biggest issue facing The UK and how would you like it addressed?

Quite simply climate change, and finding answers to the questions raised about managing planetary resources, if a slow down in global warming is to be achieved.

The summit in Lima at the weekend, at least on the surface came to some agreement for a way forward to be further debated in a year's time in Paris, but time is of the essence.  If anything is to be achieved, then a lot of politicians are going to have to make some very unpopular decisions...as for this country, the BBC wont even allow The Greens to a debate before the next election.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 16:24:45
As much as Russell Brand comes across as a bit of a tit, I'm finding myself agreeing with a lot of what he says; the current political parties are all unappealing and uninspiring. Abstaining from the process however can't be a solution, can it?

He might be a bell end, but he makes more sense than any of the self-serving tosspots fucking about wasting our taxes. I've not voted since I was a teen, but I will vote next time and I will vote UKIP.

I hate politics and I absolutely despise politicians. I'm voting for UKIP as it'd be nice to at least attempt to fuck the twattish system up. (Not that I believe it'll have any effect at all.)

(http://i.imgur.com/k39jtsT.jpg)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Utter Kant on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 16:29:55
How about the fact that there's a pretty good chance that our electoral system has a pretty solid chance of leaving UKIP (13% in the polls) and the Greens (9%) with 5-6 seats between them while even the zombie-like Lib Dems will probably retain about 30 seats on 9% of the vote because their vote is nicely concentrated?

The system is insane. I realise that AV got rejected in a referendum but that was only a marginally less shit system.

It just doesn't seem democratic in any sense that there's such a ludicrous disparity between the % of the vote and the number of seats allocated.

Agreed. However, since AV was trounced there appears to be no appetite for reform; immigration, welfare, NHS etc. seem to take precedent over the core issue of improving our democratic process in the public conscience. The average Joe couldn't tell you how other electoral systems work, what the benefits and drawbacks are, let alone which one they would replace first past the post with.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 16:33:27
Also, career politicians.

This was my second choice axe to grind. Awful.


Title: Re:
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 16:47:13
How do we address my apathy. Currently I intend to draw a massive cock (with spunk bubble) on my ballot form.

Conservatives are posh twats.

Labour may as well be the conservatives these days.

UKIP .. Ferage is head knob jockey of a bunch of closet xenophobes.

Lib dems are a bunch of lying bastards who sacrificed key principles so that clegg could nosh off Cameron while in power.

But most of all, what's the point. Nothing changes. Manifestos get backtracked on in a blink of an eye. And the country is financially screwed anyway.

I'd look at independents maybe. But Independents have no clout.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 16:53:22
I reckon Scotland is the biggest issue at present. The concessions that were offered were rushed and not thought out properly and as a result things could very easily turn in to a massive cluster fuck after the next election.

There is a very real chance we'll end up with a coalition government between Labour and the SNP, with them only having a minority of the seats/votes in England/Wales/Northern Ireland. Not convinced such a government would last 5 years.

It would be complicated further if changes to voting are pushed through before the election, reducing or removing the voting power of Scottish MP's. Giving a Labour/SNP government who wouldn't have a majority for non-Scottish votes.

Then add UKIP in to the mix and fuck knows where it could end.

Having a weak or non-functional government would be bad news all round.



Title: Re:
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 16:56:42
Lib dems are a bunch of lying bastards who sacrificed key principles so that clegg could nosh off Cameron while in power.

I really don't get this argument. The Lib Dems manifesto said what they would do if they won the election.

They didn't win the election but by forming a government with the Tories they were able to get some of the stuff they wanted.

They were never get it all and they had to make concessions. I think Clegg did a pretty good job with the negotiations.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 17:10:30
I really don't get this argument. The Lib Dems manifesto said what they would do if they won the election.

They didn't win the election but by forming a government with the Tories they were able to get some of the stuff they wanted.

They were never get it all and they had to make concessions. I think Clegg did a pretty good job with the negotiations.
I really don't think the LD's have got very much of what they wanted but they have stopped the posh boys from doing a lot of what they really wanted to do!  Their biggest single mistake was going back on their election pledge of no increase in university tuition fees - that will be remembered for a long time to come!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 17:32:59
I really don't think the LD's have got very much of what they wanted but they have stopped the posh boys from doing a lot of what they really wanted to do!  Their biggest single mistake was going back on their election pledge of no increase in university tuition fees - that will be remembered for a long time to come!!

Think they got more than could be expected given their share of the votes and MP's.

Don't get people saying they won't vote for them again over the university fees as every other party would have done it as well.

The new vastly higher personal allowance is solely down to the Lib Dems, this benefited millions of people on low wages and they don't get anywhere near the credit they deserve for it.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 17:35:07
How do we address my apathy. Currently I intend to draw a massive cock (with spunk bubble) on my ballot form.


Your best bet is to leave the ballot paper completely blank. It counts as none of the above - spoiled ballots are ignored whatever you draw on them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 17:39:43
Your best bet is to leave the ballot paper completely blank. It counts as none of the above - spoiled ballots are ignored whatever you draw on them.

But surely drawing a massive cock is more fun?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 17:44:10
But surely drawing a massive cock is more fun?

 :) It might be but depending on where you draw it, it might count as a vote. When I stood, someone had written next to the Lib Dem candidate that he was a "fucking wanker". It counted as a vote because it was mark against the candidate and no-one else.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 17:50:04
Don't get people saying they won't vote for them again over the university fees as every other party would have done it as well.

Perhaps, but the Lib Dems to a man signed a commitment not to vote to raise fees. Full stop, no caveats. They then tripled them. Was it a stupid thing to sign? Yes. Does it smack of the very worst of politics? Absolutely.

I voted Lib Dem at the last election. I may even do so again at this (It's Bath, it's them or the Tories under aforementioned shit system). But if Labour can unseat Clegg in Sheffield Hallam I shall be dancing around my flat at 4am and laughing myself into a hernia.


Title: Re: Re: Re:
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 18:37:40
I really don't get this argument. The Lib Dems manifesto said what they would do if they won the election.

They didn't win the election but by forming a government with the Tories they were able to get some of the stuff they wanted.

They were never get it all and they had to make concessions. I think Clegg did a pretty good job with the negotiations.
You really don't get why people get pissed off at them for abandoning their key principles, ones that were absolutely fundamental in people voting for them, in order to power share?

Ok then....


That reminds me, add to the list people who vote for a party simply because they/their family always have done .


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: hobnob on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 19:04:41
No one should be allowed to become an MP until they have done a proper job for at least ten years.

Example in point Ed Milliband, a professional politico who would not know what a days work is if it bit him in the arse!

Too many like him telling the rest of us that they know best. Wankers all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 19:52:15
Vote Green!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 20:22:18
Russell Brand is trying to sell a book
Nigel Farage is looking for celebrity and leads a rag tag bunch of dangerous nutters
Nick Clegg is responsible for an unelectable party that has no proper policies
Ed Milliband is unelectable
David Cameron is slimy and cringeworthy


Title: Re: Re: Re:
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 21:02:09
You really don't get why people get pissed off at them for abandoning their key principles, ones that were absolutely fundamental in people voting for them, in order to power share?

So it would have been better for them to hold their ground, refuse to make the concession, not to be a part of the government and to have absolutely zero of their policies implemented? The poorest people in the country would have got shafted even more by the Tories, but the Lib Dems would have still had their principles intact - which is all that counts right?

I can understand people being pissed off but you also need to live in the real world. Though if you want to have a go at them, it should be them making a promise they could never guarantee to keep, rather than the breaking of it.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 21:08:22
I think this coming election and the summer following could be extremely interesting...

Tory - whatever happens Cameron is going to have a massive problem post election regarding Europe - in power they are going to push for a referendum if out of power  (if he survives) party going to want to head right.

Labour  - it get it would have to rapidly come up with some policies... If don't get in Unions already stated they may split which would remove most funding and hugely change the political landscape.

Lib Dems - I  suspect in for a kicking, however what would the Tories done without their calming influence!  However if they can cut loose post election and find a leader post Clegg i do wonder what will happen going forward?

UKIP - I wonder at what stage will they become a mainstream party and begin to be treated and subject to critical scrutiny as per the others. Can you imagine the outcry if one of the other leaders made some of the statements Farage makes!


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 21:09:52
Vote Green!
Please don't! Having had Green local councillors for 10+ plus years up here they are the ultimate one issue party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 21:12:22
UKIP - I wonder at what stage will they become a mainstream party and begin to be treated and subject to critical scrutiny as per the others. Can you imagine the outcry if one of the other leaders made some of the statements Farage makes!

They get tons of scrutiny. Every time one of them says something mental they go up in the polls. It's baffling.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 21:26:36
Well I'm surprised to read more on the Lib Dems here than virtually everyone else, and much of it a sight more balanced than their media portrayal. I didn't vote because as an ex-pat of more than 15 years' standing, I don't get to vote anywhere any more (but that's a grudge for another day), but I think the LDs get precious little credit for a lot of work they've done in tempering the Tories, while being predictably rogered by them at every turn. They took that risk when they opted to sleep with the devil rather than be held responsible for forcing a second election, but I'm sorry that they'll inevitably get hammered next time round, while dribbling knee-jerks like Farage are given the benefit of the doubt simply because no-one has yet seen what an almighty clusterfuck his merry band of bigots and retards would offer up given the faintest sniff of real responsibility for anything.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 21:27:28


UKIP - I wonder at what stage will they become a mainstream party and begin to be treated and subject to critical scrutiny as per the others. Can you imagine the outcry if one of the other leaders made some of the statements Farage makes!
White, working class, ex Labour, ex Union card carrying member and non skilled. Nobody speaks for the real working class anymore.

UKIP will get my vote this time round, maybe the election after that. By then they will be discovered as Tories with a European fixation. then back to spoiling my ballet

So in answer to your question, eight years max.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 21:32:45
Please don't! Having had Green local councillors for 10+ plus years up here they are the ultimate one issue party.

UKIP are/were a one issue party and look at them now.  Although I think a lot more people ultimately care more about UKIP one issue than the Green's one.

The next election is going to be quite interesting, there are any number of potential outcomes considering all the possible collation partners if that's what is needed.  This election should have be Labours for the taking but the choice of the 2 Ed's for the top positions is going to cost them I believe.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 21:33:59
UKIP will get my vote this time round

I could have seen that coming


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 21:34:42
Ukip are truely horrible people. Do a bit of research and you'll see for yourselves. They'd be so much worse than the abominable Tories and that's saying something.
I'll vote Labour as they are the only realistic option, best of a bad bunch.

The biggest problem in my opinion is the population explosion. Worldwide and nationally. That in itself is a major factor in climate change and many other of the world's problems.




Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Post by: Batch on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 21:58:25
So it would have been better for them to hold their ground, refuse to make the concession, not to be a part of the government and to have absolutely zero of their policies implemented? The poorest people in the country would have got shafted even more by the Tories,

It was a hung parliament, the Tories couldn't have done what they wanted carte Blanche.

And yes if it means betraying what you say are your fundamental principles you absolutely should not sell out.

We'll see that a large majority of their voters agree with that comes election day. After that fuckwit clegg will be stood down hopefully.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 22:03:48
To be fair to the tories they are the only major party who haven't sold out their fundamental principles. 

They have remained a bunch of absolute cast iron cunts.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 22:07:32
I would never vote for UKIP, but I do recognise that there is a good reason why they exist.  The other 3 main political parties have, over a period of decades, refused to address an issue that is of great concern to a significant portion of the electorate: net migration.  It is not the concept of migration that many object to, but the numbers involved.  For many years, the main political parties have looked the other way and have refused to consider the issue.  And worse, they have been instrumental in even closing down the debate on the subject (for example Gordon Brown and his 'bigoted woman' comment about Gillian Duffy).

All UKIP is is a vent for the frustrations of millions who needed a voice for their feelings.  Once the other 3 parties do address the issue sensibly - and recognise that having a population policy is not something to be ashamed of - support for UKIP will atrophy.

For the first time in my life, I honestly have no idea who I will vote for in the next election.

Tories...no chance.  My local candidate is an arch-homophobe and Section 28 supporter.

Labour...I could never trust them with the economy, especially while Ed Balls is in a position of influence.  They still don't get what went wrong in the early 2000s.

Lib Dems...used to get my vote, but I'm not sure what they are for any more.

UKIP...single issue party with a fringe that I could never get in to bed with.

And on top of all that, my vote in a FPTP voting system is useless/worthless anyway.  The Tories could put a pantomime horse up for election here, and the horse would win.  Voting is utterly pointless here.  It influences nothing.  There's a part of me that does not feel easy with this, but I may well not even bother voting next time around.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 22:22:12
White, working class, ex Labour, ex Union card carrying member and non skilled. Nobody speaks for the real working class anymore.

UKIP will get my vote this time round, maybe the election after that. By then they will be discovered as Tories with a European fixation. then back to spoiling my ballet

So in answer to your question, eight years max.

I can see why working class Labour voters would lean toward Farage and UKIP, but if they bothered to understand his views a bit more than the anti-immigration sound bites in the press they'd realise he's perhaps even more of a capitalist than Cameron.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 22:27:39
I've been a labour man all my life until a couple of years ago but wouldn't touch them with a fucking barge pole at the moment. Any party that has Ed Balls and Yvette Copper in deserve nothing but utter contempt. Every attempt to talk immigration was shouted down as racism. Well now you want to talk about it, go fuck yourselves you racist snotgobblers.
I could never vote Tory. Lib Dems as well as selling their souls are a bunch of sexual deviants.
Greens - no.
UKIP - yes. I don't mind being called a xenophobe, nutter or whatever. I'm not actually that bothered about immigration, that's a by product. I don't want to be a member of such a corrupt and self serving institution.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: spacey on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 22:45:42
I can never understand it when people say that they'd never vote Tory but they'll vote Ukip. They're led and bankrolled by former Tories, their 2 MPs are former Tories and a fair chunk of their prominent members are former Tories. 


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 22:57:39
To be fair to the tories they are the only major party who haven't sold out their fundamental principles. 

They have remained a bunch of absolute cast iron cunts.
Indeed, I would never vote Tory but I think what Labour have done is a bigger u turn and betrayal of their true members!


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, December 18, 2014, 23:19:14
We'll see that a large majority of their voters agree with that comes election day. After that fuckwit clegg will be stood down hopefully.

I'm sure we will, I'm just struggling to see what it will achieve. Other than giving an outright majority to the Tories/UKIP or Labour/SNP, both of which will result in even less Lib Dem policies making it. Seems counter productive to me, though of course you'll have the comfort of Clegg getting his comeuppance.

I voted Tory and I'm appalled by what they've done to the poorest and least fortunate. Fuck only knows what they would have done without the Lib Dems reigning them in. Without the Lib Dem's in coalition I can only see the Tories arse raping the poor even more and Labour bankrupting the country even worse than they managed last time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, December 19, 2014, 00:22:35
I can never understand it when people say that they'd never vote Tory but they'll vote Ukip. They're led and bankrolled by former Tories, their 2 MPs are former Tories and a fair chunk of their prominent members are former Tories. 
Quite simple Tories want in UKIP want out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, December 19, 2014, 10:52:01
I agree with spacey.
If you look at ukip aside from the in or out of Europe issue you will see just how far away from Labour or the left they are. I think working-class former Labour voters will be apalled by them if they researched a bit about them.
I find it worrying that people will actually give those utter cunts their vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Friday, December 19, 2014, 10:52:49
Looks like I'm in a massive minority here, as for the first time in my life I'll be voting Conservative. Simply because I don't trust anyone else to run the economy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, December 19, 2014, 11:13:30
In the sense that Labour would just go on a spending spree again, I agree. But to say that the Tories have been "running" the economy is nonsense - it's been more by luck than judgement.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Friday, December 19, 2014, 11:14:01
I can never understand it when people say that they'd never vote Tory but they'll vote Ukip. They're led and bankrolled by former Tories, their 2 MPs are former Tories and a fair chunk of their prominent members are former Tories. 
Exactly this.

I will never ever vote Tory and UKIP are just a xenophibic Tory led party.

I am between Labour and Liberal but the Libs lost a lot of supporters for being a soft touch in the coalition and Labour are led by several idiots not just the leader.

I live in one of the strongest Liberal seats in the country so not actually much point in voting as David Laws got 55% of the vote last time and is a shoe in no matter what in the next election too.

But pretty much all of the parties are lying wankers anyway who are only in it for their own personal gain and with me being on very low income none of them will benefit me whatsoever.

What this country needs is a new party that will benefit the low paid and not just the high paid, one who taxes companies fairly and if you earn massive amounts of money then you have to pay your dues and have no loopholes to save paying taxes, and one that looks after the young/infirm/elderly but get the idle long term work shy people into work by creating employment and giving a living wage to the low paid possibly by taxing the very highest earners (£500k per year) at a higher rate.

It won't happen in my lifetime and I don't expect many people on here to agree with me either.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Friday, December 19, 2014, 11:16:55
You don't have to do a lot of research into UKIP to see they're not into helping the working class and currently sit on the right of the Tories. Its for the other parties to explain why they've allowed a right wing party to gain this kind of popularity so quickly. (also people who in the past who have shouted racist at the first opportunity when immigration was raised)
As immigrations effects on the lower wage is my personal concern, then UKIP is mine and other old style Labour voters obvious short term answer.
Providing UKIP didn't win an outright election. Then I really would be in the shit. As I will if the Tories get in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Friday, December 19, 2014, 11:19:10
Exactly this.

I will never ever vote Tory and UKIP are just a xenophibic Tory led party.

I am between Labour and Liberal but the Libs lost a lot of supporters for being a soft touch in the coalition and Labour are led by several idiots not just the leader.

I live in one of the strongest Liberal seats in the country so not actually much point in voting as David Laws got 55% of the vote last time and is a shoe in no matter what in the next election too.

But pretty much all of the parties are lying wankers anyway who are only in it for their own personal gain and with me being on very low income none of them will benefit me whatsoever.

What this country needs is a new party that will benefit the low paid and not just the high paid, one who taxes companies fairly and if you earn massive amounts of money then you have to pay your dues and have no loopholes to save paying taxes, and one that looks after the young/infirm/elderly but get the idle long term work shy people into work by creating employment and giving a living wage to the low paid possibly by taxing the very highest earners (£500k per year) at a higher rate.

It won't happen in my lifetime and I don't expect many people on here to agree with me either.
I'd agree with most of this. Sounds like we should move to Sweden.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Friday, December 19, 2014, 11:22:33
In the sense that Labour would just go on a spending spree again, I agree. But to say that the Tories have been "running" the economy is nonsense - it's been more by luck than judgement.

Simply put I have more faith in the current chancellor's tactics than any other potential chancellor.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, December 19, 2014, 11:28:13
You don't have to do a lot of research into UKIP to see they're not into helping the working class and currently sit on the right of the Tories. Its for the other parties to explain why they've allowed a right wing party to gain this kind of popularity so quickly. (also people who in the past who have shouted racist at the first opportunity when immigration was raised)
As immigrations effects on the lower wage is my personal concern, then UKIP is mine and other old style Labour voters obvious short term answer.
Providing UKIP didn't win an outright election. Then I really would be in the shit. As I will if the Tories get in.

After an uncharacteristically promising start, you appear to have painted yourself back into your corner.

To pick up on PV's post, I think David Laws is very able, and would go some way to rebuilding the Lib Dems' credibility as their new leader. And in answer to Janaage, I think Danny Alexander and Vince Cable could be trusted with the economy - they've had a very positive moderating influence on their respective departments over the past four years.

Won't happen though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, December 19, 2014, 11:29:46
After an uncharacteristically promising start, you appear to have painted yourself back into your corner.

To pick up on PV's post, I think David Laws is very able, and would go some way to rebuilding the Lib Dems' credibility as their new leader. And in answer to Janaage, I think Danny Alexander and Vince Cable could be trusted with the economy - they've had a very positive moderating influence on their respective departments over the past four years.

Won't happen though.

The usually admirable Cable was pretty much squarely responsible for selling off the Post Office well below value though. Badly advised he may have been, but that's a pretty obvious fuck up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Friday, December 19, 2014, 11:34:27
I'm afraid human nature will never change, so whether we are talking about governments or virtually any other organisation it is run, primarily, for those within it.

Life is full of fraudulent, corrupt 'leaders and followers' and getting rid of one only to be replaced by another corrupt, fraudulent organisation is hardly democracy in my view.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, December 19, 2014, 12:21:16
I'd agree with most of this. Sounds like we should move to Sweden.

Badly timed comment.  Sweden has plenty of problems of its own.  It's currently in political limbo because the new government couldn't get its budget (which would authorise tax increases) approved by parliament.  So another election has been called...just months after the last one.  The liberal Swedish tax & spend consensus of the 1990s is starting to look very strained.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, December 19, 2014, 12:32:33
The usually admirable Cable was pretty much squarely responsible for selling off the Post Office well below value though. Badly advised he may have been, but that's a pretty obvious fuck up.

I think that was heavily overplayed by the media actually. The report said that it estimated between another £120-180m (and not only the £180m figure the media quoted) could have been made by raising the initial offer price by up to 30p. Share value has stabilised at under 2/3rds of its peak after issue, which has undermined a lot of earlier criticism.

In overall terms, this is actually a pretty minor adjustment with the benefit of hindsight on what was a complex projection. For instance, a bigger loss would have been made if the government had chosen to retain 25% rather than 30% of the shares. The more interesting conclusion was that there should be a change to the rules to allow a revaluing of the share price later in the offer process.

This report on the BBC site is a lot more balanced than their (and others) media coverage was yesterday. On this more detailed reading, Cable comes out of this much better:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30527392 (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30527392)

Quote
Lord Myners was keen to stress that pricing a share sale is a difficult process. Speaking on BBC Breakfast, he said it was a "complicated transaction" and that "if any money had been left on the table it was pretty small".

Quote
"For the avoidance of doubt, we do not believe that a price anywhere near the levels seen in the aftermarket could have been achieved at listing."

Quote
In his report, Lord Myners said the privatisation, which raised a total of £2bn, was handled "with considerable professionalism"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Friday, December 19, 2014, 15:07:41
The usually admirable Cable was pretty much squarely responsible for selling off the Post Office well below value though. Badly advised he may have been, but that's a pretty obvious fuck up.

He didn't sell the post office
He sold Royal Mail

2 separate entities, Post Office is still wholly owned by the government and split from RM around 5 years ago.
Though some areas are still linked re pensions

Carry on  ;D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: wiggy on Friday, December 19, 2014, 17:54:16
A love a bit of political debate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcaUer4fuU8


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ticker45 on Friday, December 19, 2014, 18:11:49
I'm afraid human nature will never change, so whether we are talking about governments or virtually any other organisation it is run, primarily, for those within it.

Life is full of fraudulent, corrupt 'leaders and followers' and getting rid of one only to be replaced by another corrupt, fraudulent organisation is hardly democracy in my view.

This, and it could be the Monster Raving Looney party supposedly running the country but the real power as always lies with the long serving Civil Servants in Whitehall and always has. As a friend of mine likes to say, the old Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister shows on BBC were not comedies, but forerunners of reality TV.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 03:20:46
Civil servants don't write policy though do they. It's multiple-national companies that run the world now not politicians IMHO


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 14:06:53
In my opinion the biggest single issue is the health service,unfortunately for the majority of people it's immigration which to me is pretty much bottom of the list.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 14:28:26
At a time when public services, public utilities and public infrastructure (transport, in particular) are as stretched as they are, surely having a population policy is absolutely vital?  And by extension, having a workable net migration policy is, therefore, also vital?  For far too long, the political class in this country has sought to close down discussion/debate with accusations of racism towards those who raise the subject.

A few of the political parties are only just starting to wake up to this.  But instead of setting the agenda/debate, they have been dragged kicking & screaming to it by an electorate that's way ahead of them.

Population is the elephant in the room.  If population is going to increase to 70 million in the next decade or two, then let's be honest about where all the new schools, houses, railway lines, motorways and supermarkets are going to be built.  Or do we just look the other way and leave the next generation to work it out for themselves?  It's disingenuous and dishonest.

Of course immigration will continue, and so it should.  Isolating ourselves from the outside world would be pointless and futile.  I just think it's becoming increasingly obvious that net migration needs to be controlled and not left to chance and market forces.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 14:31:57
In my opinion the biggest single issue is the health service,unfortunately for the majority of people it's immigration which to me is pretty much bottom of the list.


The health service is a real problem and was not surprise to hear it had it's worst week this year in A&E.  I got woken a few weeks ago with a sharp pain in my chest, it went off and I went back to sleep.  In the morning I got one or two stabbing pains and rang my surgery - had to explain to the receptionist what my problem was and she told me there were no doc's appointments for three weeks!  Said she would get somebody to ring me but the nurses were busy, finally got a call at 12-15 from a nurse who told me I should have seen a doctor!!  When I asked if I could come round now she said they were shutting shortly as it was their half-day (a tuesday!).  Then I got told the classic, if I was really worried I should take myself to A&E or the walk-in centre.  Thankfully i had no re-occurrence so I did not go to A&E, but if surgeries up and down the country are under so much pressure it is no wonder the hospitals are full to bursting!  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 14:38:47
[quote author=Ardiles link=topic=55431.msg1302229#msg1302229 date=1419082106
Population is the elephant in the room.  If population is going to increase to 70 million in the next decade or two, then let's be honest about where all the new schools, houses, railway lines, motorways and supermarkets are going to be built.  Or do we just look the other way and leave the next generation to work it out for themselves?  It's disingenuous and dishonest.
[/quote]unfortunately this is just what is happening and Swindon Borough Council is absolutely to the fore in that regard!!!  Councillor Dale "Grinner" Heenan has just announced that they will not proceed with the new road linking West Swindon with the rest of the town, instead they want to upgrade certain other roads that they say will solve the problem and mentioned Akers Way.  A residential street basically, that they allowed hundreds of new homes to be built on without the correct infrastructure, and now they plan to expand in the east on the A420, please explain where the traffic is going to go from that development?  Closer to my home is the plan to put 150 new houses on the playing fields at Headlands, with no plans to upgrade the roundabout onto Cricklade Road, already a dangerous junction if you are turning right as visibility is not good. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 14:44:13
not sa
At a time when public services, public utilities and public infrastructure (transport, in particular) are as stretched as they are, surely having a population policy is absolutely vital?  And by extension, having a workable net migration policy is, therefore, also vital?  For far too long, the political class in this country has sought to close down discussion/debate with accusations of racism towards those who raise the subject.

A few of the political parties are only just starting to wake up to this.  But instead of setting the agenda/debate, they have been dragged kicking & screaming to it by an electorate that's way ahead of them.

Population is the elephant in the room.  If population is going to increase to 70 million in the next decade or two, then let's be honest about where all the new schools, houses, railway lines, motorways and supermarkets are going to be built.  Or do we just look the other way and leave the next generation to work it out for themselves?  It's disingenuous and dishonest.

Of course immigration will continue, and so it should.  Isolating ourselves from the outside world would be pointless and futile.  I just think it's becoming increasingly obvious that net migration needs to be controlled and not left to chance and market forces.

not saying that,just that its importance is over stated in the grand scheme of things.Contrary to popular opinion,I dont think its out of control.Most people say we are a "soft touch".Why,then, are people dying while clinging on to the bottom of lorries?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 14:52:43
I am starting to doubt whether the 'free at the point of service' model for the NHS can have a lot longer to go.  Even most other socially progressive western European countries have adopted a health insurance model (where you pay up front and claim most or all of the cost of treatment/consultancy from an insurer).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 15:14:41
It may not Ardiles,but every government should strive to make it so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 15:16:13
It may not Ardiles,but every government should strive to make it so.
I agree totally.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: STFC_Chris on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 21:58:39
The amount of wastage in the NHS is incredible. I work in pharmacy, and everyday patients bring back carrier bags or bin bags FULL of medicines. Often completely unopened, unused, within the expiry. That stock all goes to be incinerated. Two Seretide inhalers? £120. People just don't realise the cost of the drugs they're using.

Then there's the people who get doctors appointments for colds, headaches, and other minor ailments to get a prescription for Paracetamol, because they're 'entitled' to it. Yes, maybe, but the appointment you've just had has cost the NHS vastly more than the 40p you could have bought a box for.

Unpopular as it would be, I believe there should either be a small charge to visit the doctor or prescription charges should be applicable to everybody. £5 to visit your doctor, still great value, but makes you think twice if you've only got a sniffle. £2 per prescription for your first 20 items a year, then free after that?

You only have to have a quick look at ebay for things like Nicorette products being sold on. How many of those were on prescription, which the patient probably paid nothing for, then decided they'd rather carry on smoking?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 22:32:15
I was born in a shitty estate (Blackbird Leys), and spent my first 7 years there.
I still have relatives there.

The older ones won't even go out during the dark, and so are virtual prisoners in their houses for most of the winter.

Virtually all of the working class residents want the police to sort the place out, and get rid of the scum bags, but all the Labour councilors do is stick up for the rights of the crack heads and thieves.

The labour party has totally lost touch with what it is like to live in these places, because it has become the party of the fucking champagne socialists, who refer to their old core support as "Chavs"

They haven't represented the white working class for about twenty years.

I won't be voting UKIP, because I don't need to, but I can fully understand why the abandoned working class will vote for them in huge numbers



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 22:58:37
At a time when public services, public utilities and public infrastructure (transport, in particular) are as stretched as they are, surely having a population policy is absolutely vital?  And by extension, having a workable net migration policy is, therefore, also vital?  For far too long, the political class in this country has sought to close down discussion/debate with accusations of racism towards those who raise the subject.

UKIP appear to have changed tack, now claiming public services and infrastructure are over run due to migrant workers and for that reason we need to leave the EU so we can limit migration. I'm guessing they've given up on claiming they're taking all the jobs, with unemployment falling sharply now it's not a valid argument.

It's simple to blame the problems on migrants but you need to look deeper to see what the real problem is, or you risk taking a sledge hammer to crack a nut. For me the problem is primarily the inefficient spending of public money and to a lesser degree there not being enough money due to everyone wanting lower taxes and the rich/large companies not paying their share.

Far too many people seem to fall for the tabloid grabbing headlines that are spouted by UKIP and the SNP, ending up voting for what isn't much more than a pack of lies. Didn't the SNP base their future independent Scotland spending on oil being $100 a barrel? Imagine if they were now independent and in a currency union with the remainder of the UK, we'd all now be royally fucked as we'd have to bail them out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 23:03:43
Unpopular as it would be, I believe there should either be a small charge to visit the doctor or prescription charges should be applicable to everybody. £5 to visit your doctor, still great value, but makes you think twice if you've only got a sniffle. £2 per prescription for your first 20 items a year, then free after that?

What if you haven't got £5?

There are far better and simpler solutions to the issues with the NHS.

It was only recently I found out you can make appointments with nurses for minor complaints and that a doctors appointment isn't necessary. If more and better use was made of nurses it would reduce the strain on the doctors and provide a better service.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 23:04:52
You are on your own. Have been for a while.
The politicians are only in it for themselves and do not represent those who elect them.

Put a box at the bottom of the ballot paper with " none of them and detest  them all" and you would get a landslide victory and the biggest turn out in recent times.

Fucking hate all of them. Sad but true.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 23:08:12


Far too many people seem to fall for the tabloid grabbing headlines that are spouted by UKIP and the SNP, ending up voting for what isn't much more than a pack of lies. Didn't the SNP base their future independent Scotland spending on oil being $100 a barrel? Imagine if they were now independent and in a currency union with the remainder of the UK, we'd all now be royally fucked as we'd have to bail them out.

I was working up in Edinburgh this week, and I was chatting to one of my mates up there (he was a massive supporter of a Yes vote, as was I, from a "England's better off with out them" POV).
I was amazed that nobody in the media up there had challenged the SNP on how they would have funded their socialist utopia on oil at $60 a barrel when it costs $90+ to get it out of the ground.

I so wish they had had the bottle to vote with their hearts and not their heads


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, December 20, 2014, 23:43:16
You are on your own. Have been for a while.
The politicians are only in it for themselves and do not represent those who elect them.

Put a box at the bottom of the ballot paper with " none of them and detest  them all" and you would get a landslide victory and the biggest turn out in recent times.

Fucking hate all of them. Sad but true.

There are some genuine, Labour back benchers who care. They keep my hopes alive that their party will come good again after the new Labour bullshit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 00:45:18
Are you serious ?
Get the Country back in debt with their wasteful spending plans.
Please no..... Every time that shower get in they leave the Country in a bigger mess than when they takeover.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 01:19:43
I am starting to doubt whether the 'free at the point of service' model for the NHS can have a lot longer to go.  Even most other socially progressive western European countries have adopted a health insurance model (where you pay up front and claim most or all of the cost of treatment/consultancy from an insurer).

Keep saying it, and say it louder. It's become such an article of faith in Britain, soaking up a huge and largely unquestioned budget that could be used so much more productively. The NHS really isn't as good as people like to pretend, and the waste it generates is truly shocking.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 09:35:29
I am starting to doubt whether the 'free at the point of service' model for the NHS can have a lot longer to go.  Even most other socially progressive western European countries have adopted a health insurance model (where you pay up front and claim most or all of the cost of treatment/consultancy from an insurer).
My old man until the last couple of weeks had lived in France for 10+years. Last couple of years had some quite unpleasant back problems requiring multiple operations.

His friend who stayed over here at had similar problem at similar time. Long and short of it, in France referred to consultant, diagnosed  (including scans MRI) operated within 3 weeks, had to have further operation took another three weeks to sort - friend over here still not sorted after 18 months +.

I know they pay and claim back via insurance over there but still seems to be an altogether better system.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 09:38:37
What if you haven't got £5?

I think the number of people who genuinely would not be able to find £5 for a doctor's appointment is sufficiently small that you would be able to introduce a safety net that would ensure everyone who needed to would get seen.

STFC_Chris puts it better than I could, so no need to repeat the point.  The flaw with the 'free at the point of service' model is that there is absolutely no disincentive to use the service when you don't need to.  While it may be free in cash terms under the current system to visit A&E (for example), having a 4 or 5 hour wait there as standard is the price we pay.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 09:54:59

I know they pay and claim back via insurance over there but still seems to be an altogether better system.


So it's more like private healthcare then? Is the cost the same as something like BUPA? The good thing about the NHS is that you don't need to pay, I'd rather it wasn't there but private healthcare is available too, and you get treated quicker.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 09:57:37
I am not insurable privately, so I'm fucked then! Lucky I've still got the NHS.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 09:58:21

It was only recently I found out you can make appointments with nurses for minor complaints and that a doctors appointment isn't necessary.

Our doctors pretty much almost push you through the nurse first, or a telephone appointment with the doctor, before you actually get to an appointment with one.

You can of course refuse the nurse appointment.

Must be practice specifics how hard they push that kind of thing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 10:02:05
I am not insurable privately, so I'm fucked then! Lucky I've still got the NHS.

There would be a way.  You only have to take a look at the French system and others like it to see how.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 10:02:53
I'd worry about the scandalous level of charges that would get levied. Hospitals being run for profit just doesn't quite sit right with me.

Having to argue with insurance companies over what is and what isn't covered. Being left with bills for tens of thousands of pounds because you didn't use your insurance company's preferred choice.

You'd isolate the poorest in society even more because they wouldn't be able to afford the insurance. Just look at the US where they've had to bring in "Obama care".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 10:07:11
There would be a way.  You only have to take a look at the French system and others like it to see how.

Isn't the French system just a slightly different take on the NHS and National Insurance? It's still mostly state sponsored.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 10:09:18
I think so, yes.  It's not a free market free for all.  But it's not free at the point of service either.  Seems to be a lot more efficient than our set up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 10:58:57
The NHS is one of the best things about the UK. The fact that it's survived for over a half century is testament to how valued it is. The waste of money is from the unwieldy administration apparatus that seems to be constantly added to.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: wiggy on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 11:41:43
The NHS is one of the best things about the UK. The fact that it's survived for over a half century is testament to how valued it is. The waste of money is from the unwieldy administration apparatus that seems to be constantly added to.



This is more true than you would believe.

While I was temping over the summer I accepted a 12 week contract with Wiltshire NHS to help set up the administration for the new Clinical Commissioning Group.

The amount of money wasted on furniture/printing/secretarial staff was mind blowing. I was asked not to come back after 2 weeks because I kept arguing about the inefficiencies. I did more colour printing in 2 weeks with the NHS than I did in 16 years with the Council. The clinical leads are all jealous of their little bit of the empire, and none would take a wider strategic view.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 14:15:29
Are you serious ?
Get the Country back in debt with their wasteful spending plans.
Please no..... Every time that shower get in they leave the Country in a bigger mess than when they takeover.
putting right services and making improvements costs money.
It's a vicious circle at the moment as the Tories close things down and sell things off to balance the books, then Labour spend years repairing the damage. They then get ousted and the Tories sell off and cut back again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 14:26:25
The problem is, we don't have the money to make improvements and putting right services.

I've never voted Tory, can't stand the snivelling public schoolboy pricks, but I think their approach to the economy via cuts is unfair, horrible but unavoidably necessary.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 14:30:42
putting right services and making improvements costs money.
It's a vicious circle at the moment as the Tories close things down and sell things off to balance the books, then Labour spend years repairing the damage. They then get ousted and the Tories sell off and cut back again.

Spot on.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 15:03:01
putting right services and making improvements costs money.
It's a vicious circle at the moment as the Tories close things down and sell things off to balance the books, then Labour spend years repairing the damage. They then get ousted and the Tories sell off and cut back again.

Alernatively for balance is it....

Labour create thousands of public sector jobs to get unemployment down and leave an economic mess and Tories spend years removing said jobs balancing the books again and then the cycle begins again!

FWIW it's somewhere in the middle I suggest - each party has its dogmatic position and due to this i don't trust any of the buggers!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 15:19:44
our political parties, not that different - the problem with cutting services is that maintenance is not done and then it's really expensive to repair/replace - very evident with roads.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Iffy's Onion Bhaji on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 17:36:13
Are you serious ?
Get the Country back in debt with their wasteful spending plans.
Please no..... Every time that shower get in they leave the Country in a bigger mess than when they takeover.

Yep. I for one never have and never will vote Labour. Clueless mongs. The rest aren't much better though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 17:48:57
putting right services and making improvements costs money.
It's a vicious circle at the moment as the Tories close things down and sell things off to balance the books, then Labour spend years repairing the damage. They then get ousted and the Tories sell off and cut back again.

That did make me smile.  The idea that Labour is out there repairing damage is extraordinary, surely?  They took a wrecking ball to the economy.  Heart is in more or less the right place, maybe, but they were and - so far as I can tell - still are economically incompetent.

The damage they inflicted economically is going to take years to put right.  I'm no fan of Tory austerity, but neither can I see much of an alternative, sadly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 18:10:24
I was born in a shitty estate (Blackbird Leys), and spent my first 7 years there.
I still have relatives there.

The older ones won't even go out during the dark, and so are virtual prisoners in their houses for most of the winter.

Virtually all of the working class residents want the police to sort the place out, and get rid of the scum bags, but all the Labour councilors do is stick up for the rights of the crack heads and thieves.

The labour party has totally lost touch with what it is like to live in these places, because it has become the party of the fucking champagne socialists, who refer to their old core support as "Chavs"

They haven't represented the white working class for about twenty years.

I won't be voting UKIP, because I don't need to, but I can fully understand why the abandoned working class will vote for them in huge numbers



Just for a little balance, here's the Blackbird Leys council election result from a few weeks ago:

The Conservative Party   27   
Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition   13   
Liberal Democrat   11   
Green Party   21   
UK Independence Party   91   
Labour Party   509

Make your own minds up as to who's totally lost touch.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DarloSTFC84 on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 18:11:35
 :suicide:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 18:18:01
Just for a little balance, here's the Blackbird Leys council election result from a few weeks ago:

The Conservative Party   27   
Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition   13   
Liberal Democrat   11   
Green Party   21   
UK Independence Party   91   
Labour Party   509

Make your own minds up as to who's totally lost touch.

On a turnout of 15.7%...

http://www.oxford.gov.uk/PageRender/decCD/Election_results_occw.htm


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 18:35:38
So yes, the French system (like other European healthcare systems) delivers fantastic service, but it's at the price of a huge public deficit + huge private contributions. For all that, I still think the system answers requirements better than than the NHS, that people without a point of comparison have been brainwashed into thinking is the mother of all healthcare systems.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 18:45:02
That did make me smile.  The idea that Labour is out there repairing damage is extraordinary, surely?  They took a wrecking ball to the economy.  Heart is in more or less the right place, maybe, but they were and - so far as I can tell - still are economically incompetent.

The damage they inflicted economically is going to take years to put right.  I'm no fan of Tory austerity, but neither can I see much of an alternative, sadly.

Out of interest, did you feel the same during what i think was the longest period of sustained economic growth that this country has ever had - from the later Major years, all the way through Blair and into Brown?

And if so, who do you hold responsible for the crippling early 90s recession and Cameron's unique double dip?  Labour's wrecking ball again?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 18:52:26
Out of interest, did you feel the same during what i think was the longest period of sustained economic growth that this country has ever had - from the later Major years, all the way through Blair and into Brown?

At the time, no.  I enjoyed the 'benefit' like everyone else.  But we all found out, to our cost, in the years that followed that the 'sustained economic growth' was completely unsustainable.  A giant bubble, fuelled by debt and household spending.  It was not my job to spot this.  It was the government's.  They failed.

And if so, who do you hold responsible for the crippling early 90s recession...

The Tories.

...and Cameron's unique double dip?

Labour.

Labour's wrecking ball again?

Pls see above.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 19:20:01
That did make me smile.  The idea that Labour is out there repairing damage is extraordinary, surely?  They took a wrecking ball to the economy.  Heart is in more or less the right place, maybe, but they were and - so far as I can tell - still are economically incompetent.

The damage they inflicted economically is going to take years to put right.  I'm no fan of Tory austerity, but neither can I see much of an alternative, sadly.
No. They did a pretty good job of repairing the services that the Tories ruined. The Tories are doing the same thing again now with their attacks on almost everything.
The financial world recession would have happened regardless of who was in government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 19:23:46
The damage they inflicted economically is going to take years to put right.  I'm no fan of Tory austerity, but neither can I see much of an alternative, sadly.

Yep, had to be done unfortunately and will continue to have to be.

Was never going to be popular and the Tories have unfairly penalised certain sectors of society more so than others. They inherited one big mess though and it was never going to be pretty to sort out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 19:24:20
The financial world recession would have happened regardless of who was in government.

It would.

But the implications of a Labour government trying to spend their way out of it would've been catastrophic.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 19:27:30
At the time, no.  I enjoyed the 'benefit' like everyone else.  But we all found out, to our cost, in the years that followed that the 'sustained economic growth' was completely unsustainable.  A giant bubble, fuelled by debt and household spending.  It was not my job to spot this.  It was the government's.  They failed.


The response to the financial crisis from Labour  (and I suspect the Tories would have been exactly the same so I am not singling Labour ) out just summed up how clueless and more depressing patronising politicians have become

C.12 years of growth were apparently singularly down to Labours frugal policies  (I will gloss over the sale of the gold), but the minute the wheels fall off and the shit hits the fan  it becomes an international problem they have no control over!

We are not stupid, the fact that you treat us thus just shows the disdain politicians have for the public!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 19:28:09
Hasn't the nations debts risen under the current condem coalition?


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 19:28:48
No. They did a pretty good job of repairing the services that the Tories ruined. The Tories are doing the same thing again now with their attacks on almost everything.
The financial world recession would have happened regardless of who was in government.

As did the financial boom that preceded it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 19:55:45
Hasn't the nations debts risen under the current condem coalition?


Public sector debt will always rise. Economies function on debt.

It's the debt to GDP ratio and, more to a point, the structural deficit that is the concern. Yes, debt:GDP has risen since the austerity measures started because the country is still being run at a deficit. Labour are somewhat to blame for the spending they introduced during their government. All of the cost-cutting measures we've seen so far are designed to reduce the deficit so that by 2018 the country will be in surplus and debt:GDP will start to fall. So there is far more austerity to come in the next few years. We didn't cut costs fast and hard enough, unlike the US who did and are now 2+ years ahead of us in terms of recovery.

Labour might've "did a pretty good job of repairing the services that the Tories ruined" but at a significant opportunity cost.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 20:55:13
Why did the recovery have to be done with such haste and at such a cost to services etc?
Why couldn't things be done more gradually so the impact is less severe?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 21:05:05
With respect Red Frog,your take on things is exactly what this Tory government wants,then they abolish it,seemingly with public approval.When its gone we will all be sorry.You say its not all its cracked up to be,but that's not the fault of the NHS.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 21:23:39
Why did the recovery have to be done with such haste and at such a cost to services etc?
Why couldn't things be done more gradually so the impact is less severe?

The way I liken it to, no doubt wrongly, is trying to pay your credit card off with the minimum amount each moth while still spending on it.


Title: Re:
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 21:24:30
This thread is like watching a bunch of spastics who have been thrown into a swimming pool.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 21:24:55
With respect Red Frog,your take on things is exactly what this Tory government wants,then they abolish it,seemingly with public approval.When its gone we will all be sorry.You say its not all its cracked up to be,but that's not the fault of the NHS.
With respect... and I don't have the answers but...

a) the privitisation of the NHS actually started under the labour when they started limited outsourcing.

b) many of the problems with the NHS now relate to them being tied up with with PFI  contracts which left huge debts.

I don't disagree that the Tories have an idealogical issue at play here, but fuck me labour have made it bloody easy for them!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 21:33:12
This thread is like watching a bunch of spastics who have been thrown into a swimming pool.

Delightful. Feel free to go and lick a mains socket you fuckwit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 21:37:12
With respect... and I don't have the answers but...

a) the privitisation of the NHS actually started under the labour when they started limited outsourcing.

b) many of the problems with the NHS now relate to them being tied up with with PFI  contracts which left huge debts.

I don't disagree that the Tories have an idealogical issue at play here, but fuck me labour have made it bloody easy for them!

Oh god yes, I've seen a few ridiculous PFI contracts recently and it's crazy how politicians (all sides) will make patently stupid financial decisions just because they have a policy edict to somehow make look successful to the public.


Title: Re:
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 21:58:01
This thread is like watching a bunch of spastics who have been thrown into a swimming pool.
A bit like pm's questions then?
Why not contribute to it and correct us spastics oh wise one?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 22:59:07
This thread is like watching a bunch of spastics who have been thrown into a swimming pool.

Did you forget your armbands again?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Sunday, December 21, 2014, 23:06:28
With respect Red Frog,your take on things is exactly what this Tory government wants,then they abolish it,seemingly with public approval.When its gone we will all be sorry.You say its not all its cracked up to be,but that's not the fault of the NHS.

Yes, I understand that's the risk anyone takes in criticising the NHS, so that even the Tories ring-fence spending on it. The system's full of waste, but protecting people's right to abuse it seems to be untouchable. It would take a huge mindshift to move to a system supported by private insurance (related to ability to pay), but the public funds that would be freed up from fundamental NHS reform would transform the economy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Monday, December 22, 2014, 00:59:40
I'll take a wild stab in the dark, that Christy and Arriba work in the public sector


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Monday, December 22, 2014, 01:44:27
Why did the recovery have to be done with such haste and at such a cost to services etc?
Why couldn't things be done more gradually so the impact is less severe?

They have been taking it easy with the cuts, worst of it is still to come.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Monday, December 22, 2014, 13:15:32
I'll take a wild stab in the dark, that Christy and Arriba work in the public sector

I'll guess that arriba drives trucks  ;) and his hobby is fence erecting and shopping.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, December 22, 2014, 15:27:30
I'll guess that arriba drives trucks  ;) and his hobby is fence erecting and shopping.
yeah pretty much apart from the shopping bit. Certainly not a hobby of mine.
I don't work in the public sector. Know plenty of people who do though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Monday, December 22, 2014, 22:01:48
I'll take a wild stab in the dark, that Christy and Arriba work in the public sector

Given that I either do or don't, it's not exactly a wild stab in the dark.  Suggesting I was a geography teacher from Melksham might be more like it.

But anyway, you're wrong on me too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pumbaa on Monday, December 22, 2014, 22:50:10
This thread is like watching a bunch of spastics who have been thrown into a swimming pool.

Speechless. Just speechless.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Monday, December 22, 2014, 22:56:32
Theresa mays plan to force all foreign graduates to leave the country is the most ass backwards, short sighted, completely fucking retarded idea I've heard in a lon long time


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, December 22, 2014, 23:32:02
It Theresa May though, so not a total shock.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, December 22, 2014, 23:43:59
Theresa mays plan to force all foreign graduates to leave the country is the most ass backwards, short sighted, completely fucking retarded idea I've heard in a lon long time

Absolutely spot on, total madness. May seems to be angling for the top job in a big way by trying to be hardline on everything but it's odd to see a Tory minister picking a fight with the CBI.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, December 23, 2014, 00:03:55
As a Surrey resident who doesn't usually bother with a midweek match because of jams on the M4, I was curious to learn from UKIP that this was the fault of the EU or migrants - presumably heading to the Cotswold homes of the political classes who appreciate their low cost work ethic compared to the locals..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, December 23, 2014, 13:10:18
Theresa mays plan to force all foreign graduates to leave the country is the most ass backwards, short sighted, completely fucking retarded idea I've heard in a lon long time

The answer's pretty simple. Immigration is a significant electoral issue (and has been for a long time) and both Labour and the Tories are facing significant pressures from their constituents. The problem is neither Labour nor the Tories want to take the very difficult decisions which might actually genuinely control immigration numbers, so they both go for "easy options" - to meet targets if nothing else.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Tuesday, December 23, 2014, 13:48:55
Yeah, I know that. It's still fucking stupid


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, December 23, 2014, 14:15:16
It's not all foreign students just non-EU but still......


Title: Re: 'STFC to face court over unpaid rent' - Adver
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 23, 2014, 16:57:31
They do. The basic principle of freehold ownership is that you own "everything from the heavens to the centre of the earth", which includes any minerals under the land and mining rights etc (vaguely recall there being a Latin maxim but fucked if I can remember it). There may be statutes that give others or the crown certain *rights* over parts of the land for specific purposes, but that doesn't change the fact of *ownership*.

No idea what the position would be regards the CG though. Suspect its more complicated than that.

This may be the historical position, but now changed by the Tories, so that fracking can happen beneath your house without your say so....here's the Green MP Caroline Lucas  take on matters....not that the BBC would allow her access to share a platform with someone like Farage, after all she's an MP and he isn't.

Quote
Green Party MP Caroline Lucas told the Guardian it’s a “sham consultation,” which exposes “the government’s disregard for the growing public concern about the major environmental and health risks of fracking. The decision to deny people the right to say no to fracking under their own homes is outrageous. It shows that ministers are putting the greed of oil and gas companies above the public interest in tackling climate change.”

Jane Thomas, senior campaigner of Friends of the Earth, said in a press release: “This Government seems hell-bent on fracking irrespective of widespread opposition. You’d think with a general election approaching politicians would listen to public opinion and get behind the popular energy solutions of cutting waste and backing renewables.”

“Fracking for more fossil fuels will cause more pollution and bring about more catastrophic climate change - the Government should stop making things easier for the frackers and allow people a say in what happens beneath their property.



Title: Re: 'STFC to face court over unpaid rent' - Adver
Post by: manc_red on Tuesday, December 23, 2014, 17:44:08
This may be the historical position, but now changed by the Tories, so that fracking can happen beneath your house without your say so....here's the Green MP Caroline Lucas  take on matters....not that the BBC would allow her access to share a platform with someone like Farage, after all she's an MP and he isn't.



Not really changed as such. Oil and gas has been an exception to a landowners mineral rights since the Petroleum (Production) Act 1934. The only (well, I say "only"..) thing that the tories want to change - and it isn't law yet by the looks of it, although they appear hell bent on pushing it through - is allowing a more or less unfettered right of access through the landowners land to extract the gas.

The land under the property remains *owned* by the landowner. Not that that'll be much comfort to any poor bastards who end up having tons of shite dumped under their property mind :)



Title: Re: 'STFC to face court over unpaid rent' - Adver
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 23, 2014, 18:33:53
Not really changed as such. Oil and gas has been an exception to a landowners mineral rights since the Petroleum (Production) Act 1934. The only (well, I say "only"..) thing that the tories want to change - and it isn't law yet by the looks of it, although they appear hell bent on pushing it through - is allowing a more or less unfettered right of access through the landowners land to extract the gas.

The land under the property remains *owned* by the landowner. Not that that'll be much comfort to any poor bastards who end up having tons of shite dumped under their property mind :)



I believe the semantic sleight of hand is that drilling under someone's land, would once have been considered trespass, but not now.

I've always had a suspicion that there must be some oil or shale gas, lurking under particularly Old Town....due to the fact the geology is remarkably similar to bits of Dorset, where you get oil fields like Wytch Farm.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/entertainment/days_out/walk_through_time/02.shtml


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Tuesday, December 23, 2014, 19:54:01
Apart from the usual green hysteria, can anyone tell me what is actually wrong with fracking ?

I'm not in any way saying that it isn't wrong, just that I've never heard a rational argument either way.

I tend to be swayed in favour, simply because the usual crowd of hippies and rent-a-mob types are against it

Happy to be persuaded either way.

(and Reg, the fact that the Tories like it, and the Americans do it, isn't necessarily a good enough reason to not like it)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: manc_red on Tuesday, December 23, 2014, 20:15:31
Well it involves setting off massive explosions miles underground, I.e near the water table etc, close to cities and built up areas.

I'd have thought the more pertinent question might be "what evidence is there that its definitely safe?"

The fact that the Germans and French wont touch it is a bit worrying.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Wednesday, December 24, 2014, 07:03:06
Apart from the usual green hysteria, can anyone tell me what is actually wrong with fracking ?

I'm not in any way saying that it isn't wrong, just that I've never heard a rational argument either way.

I tend to be swayed in favour, simply because the usual crowd of hippies and rent-a-mob types are against it

Happy to be persuaded either way.

(and Reg, the fact that the Tories like it, and the Americans do it, isn't necessarily a good enough reason to not like it)

You don't mind flames coming out of your taps then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Wednesday, December 24, 2014, 14:37:32
This was a pretty balanced Documentary by Iain Stewart on it a while back. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1z39ui_e14-fracking-the-new-energy-rush_tv


Title: Re:
Post by: Batch on Sunday, December 28, 2014, 14:14:13
Nigel Ferage, The Times Briton of the year


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Sunday, December 28, 2014, 15:02:26
Odd from a paper that's desperately trying to bring him down


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: manc_red on Sunday, December 28, 2014, 23:20:09
Drug policy should be far more of a political issue than it is. The fact that we have a government who ignore - and even it appears deliberately suppress - scientific advice and evidence in favour of kow-towing to the Daily Mail, is an absolute disgrace.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/exminister-norman-baker-leaks-details-on-home-secretarys-drug-stance-9945643.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Monday, December 29, 2014, 08:46:07
Drug policy should be far more of a political issue than it is. The fact that we have a government who ignore - and even it appears deliberately suppress - scientific advice and evidence in favour of kow-towing to the Daily Mail, is an absolute disgrace.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/exminister-norman-baker-leaks-details-on-home-secretarys-drug-stance-9945643.html


Surely they are widely available in Manchester aren't they ?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Monday, December 29, 2014, 10:22:48
Anyone who thought Scottish independence was a good idea still think so with the price of crude oil disappearing down the plug hole? Mr. salmond is strangely quiet for a gobby revolutionist.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, December 29, 2014, 11:29:00
Interesting to see that the Pope, is issuing an encyclical on the subject of economic systems and climate change....good stuff from the Pontiff...

Quote
“An economic system centred on the god of money needs to plunder nature to sustain the frenetic rhythm of consumption that is inherent to it.

“The system continues unchanged, since what dominates are the dynamics of an economy and a finance that are lacking in ethics. It is no longer man who commands, but money. Cash commands.

“The monopolising of lands, deforestation, the appropriation of water, inadequate agro-toxics are some of the evils that tear man from the land of his birth. Climate change, the loss of biodiversity and deforestation are already showing their devastating effects in the great cataclysms we witness,” he said.

In Lima last month, bishops from every continent expressed their frustration with the stalled climate talks and, for the first time, urged rich countries to act.

Sorondo, a fellow Argentinian who is known to be close to Pope Francis, said: “Just as humanity confronted revolutionary change in the 19th century at the time of industrialisation, today we have changed the natural environment so much. If current trends continue, the century will witness unprecedented climate change and destruction of the ecosystem with tragic consequences.”

There are of course plenty of climate change deniers in Christian churches, particularly in the US....in the same way there are probably of climate change deniers on the TEF.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, December 29, 2014, 11:33:15
The Pope's been saying a lot of stuff lately that goes against what fundamentalists might think. It seems that he is recognising that religion needs to stay in touch with the modern world or risk fading away.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, January 25, 2015, 13:01:28
With the discussions about the TV debates with the party leaders, I want to know why we can't have local debates?

Hold it at the Wyvern (one night for each constituency), allocate tickets by ballot, have all the candidates present, then go for it Question Time style. Broadcast it on the internet for those that can't attend, have a Twitter discussion go on and all that stuff.

Would be a good way of getting people a bit more involved in political debate and to find out more about the candidates.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, January 25, 2015, 13:06:51
Local debates happen all the time, we had one in Bath the other day, but they tend not to be broadcast.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, January 25, 2015, 13:16:29
Do they? Have we had them in Swindon?

Never heard of any happening before.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, January 25, 2015, 13:19:58
Do they? Have we had them in Swindon?

Never heard of any happening before.

We had Question Time in Swindon less than a year ago....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zMYw9SasAg


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Sunday, January 25, 2015, 13:32:06
With the discussions about the TV debates with the party leaders, I want to know why we can't have local debates?

Hold it at the Wyvern (one night for each constituency), allocate tickets by ballot, have all the candidates present, then go for it Question Time style. Broadcast it on the internet for those that can't attend, have a Twitter discussion go on and all that stuff.

Would be a good way of getting people a bit more involved in political debate and to find out more about the candidates.



They already do, they're called hustings events...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 11:08:26
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1516726.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2015_02_07

LMFAO


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 12:18:42
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1516726.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2015_02_07

LMFAO
Another reason to hate the Tory cunt


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 12:33:15
Not a big fan of the Tory party, but Buckland has been a big help to my parents with a few issues regarding my brother's education so whatever else he may be, he's a good local MP. Which is another difficulty with our electoral system - in 2005 I wasn't eligible to vote but it would have been a very tough choice as Julia Drown was an excellent constituency MP but Labour was suffering from the Iraq hangover (as it was, Drown stood down, but you get the point)

On the other hand, I didn't hear too many positive things about Snelgrove, who I believe is re-standing for Labour in South Swindon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 12:46:44
Not a big fan of the Tory party, but Buckland has been a big help to my parents with a few issues regarding my brother's education so whatever else he may be, he's a good local MP. Which is another difficulty with our electoral system - in 2005 I wasn't eligible to vote but it would have been a very tough choice as Julia Drown was an excellent constituency MP but Labour was suffering from the Iraq hangover (as it was, Drown stood down, but you get the point)

On the other hand, I didn't hear too many positive things about Snelgrove, who I believe is re-standing for Labour in South Swindon.
He may have helped you on an individual basis and that's good to hear but that doesn't excuse him or his party.

Agree about Julia drown, she was excellent. Also agree about snelgrove but to be fair she knocked on my door recently and I grilled her. She was very reasonable She got too close to Gordon Brown but is still the best option I reckon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 13:12:33
I find Snelgrove intensely irritating, and she comes across as a suck up career politician. Which presumably isn't true given her age. But I have heard some good remarks regarding her local work.

But I think you've made a good point. How do you pick when your local MP is actually pretty good for your area, but when the party the represent are a bunch of (ed) ball bags


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 13:59:25
Your local MP is going to be whipped to vote along party lines in all of the important votes...so the party consideration comes first, in my book.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 14:28:03
Interesting that the Labour wipe out predicted in Scotland this May could lead, in all probability, to a Labour/SNP coalition at Westminster.

Guardian: Scotland Poll Shows a Nation on the Verge of Abandoning Labour (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/datablog/2015/feb/04/scotland-poll-shows-a-nation-on-the-verge-of-abandoning-labour)

I'm trying to work through the likely chain of events that would follow if Labour tried to form a government with the SNP.  One way or another, I think that there's a good chance that it could lead to independence for Scotland by the back door.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 14:34:17
Your local MP is going to be whipped to vote along party lines in all of the important votes...so the party consideration comes first, in my book.

Yes, I think so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 15:03:56
Did you see inside the commons? The Tories send e-mails to their mps telling them to ask camoron prepared questions at pmq's. Rather than using the time to do their job and represent their constituents. I wonder if our Tory boy wanker mps have followed these orders?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 15:07:35
Did you see inside the commons? The Tories send e-mails to their mps telling them to ask camoron prepared questions at pmq's. Rather than using the time to do their job and represent their constituents. I wonder if our Tory boy wanker mps have followed these orders?

That's long been the case, under Labour it became embarrassing it was so obvious. The problem largely arises from the fact the legislature is not properly separate from the government. MPs have a vested interest in being sycophantic so they can get a ministerial job etc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 15:23:55
Did you see inside the commons? The Tories send e-mails to their mps telling them to ask camoron prepared questions at pmq's. Rather than using the time to do their job and represent their constituents. I wonder if our Tory boy wanker mps have followed these orders?

Quite interesting that program, although the nature of the internal politics of Westminster is a joke. It did show that there are some decent MPs out there as well (the 2 birds), irrispective of your party allegiance


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 16:18:16
That's long been the case, under Labour it became embarrassing it was so obvious. The problem largely arises from the fact the legislature is not properly separate from the government. MPs have a vested interest in being sycophantic so they can get a ministerial job etc.
Agree. That's what grated me with snelgrove. I think anyone asking preloaded questions should be ousted. The practice itself should be banned from the commons.
Quite interesting that program, although the nature of the internal politics of Westminster is a joke. It did show that there are some decent MPs out there as well (the 2 birds), irrispective of your party allegiance
agreed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 16:32:00
Of course, the saintly Mr Buckland, so beloved of some on here, would never do anything wrong to further his own interests...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2698664/New-law-chief-guilty-misconduct-race-hate-trial-didn-t-tell-PM-Professional-misconduct-illicitly-getting-case-notes-involving-school-governor.html


Title: Re:
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 17:32:19
What makes me laugh about this election is that there are actually people who will vote for the Labour party, the Liberal Democrats and the Conservative Party. That's the thing that's fucking insane!


Title: Re:
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 17:43:51
What makes me laugh about this election is that there are actually people who will vote for the Labour party, the Liberal Democrats and the Conservative Party. That's the thing that's fucking insane!

Yep....would be so much better if people never bothered, so leaving the way open for the BNP....I see why you equate this to insanity.


Title: Re: Re:
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 17:56:36
Yep....would be so much better if people never bothered, so leaving the way open for the BNP....I see why you equate this to insanity.
The definition of insanity, according to Einstein: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That sounds like a typical Labour voter to me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 18:16:33
I take it you'll be voting for the respect party, ironside?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 18:20:56
I take it you'll be voting for the respect party, ironside?
Yeah, 'coz that's fucking logical...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: stfc1975 on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 19:48:07
They're all a bunch of cunts.

The end.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 21:58:04
Not a big fan of the Tory party, but Buckland has been a big help to my parents with a few issues regarding my brother's education so whatever else he may be, he's a good local MP. Which is another difficulty with our electoral system - in 2005 I wasn't eligible to vote but it would have been a very tough choice as Julia Drown was an excellent constituency MP but Labour was suffering from the Iraq hangover (as it was, Drown stood down, but you get the point)

On the other hand, I didn't hear too many positive things about Snelgrove, who I believe is re-standing for Labour in South Swindon.

Snelgrove was absolutely worse than useless when she was our MP- stuck up for the locals but then voted with the Govt everytime.
She has no chance of being re-elected


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 22:00:49
Snelgrove was absolutely worse than useless when she was our MP- stuck up for the locals but then voted with the Govt everytime.
She has no chance of being re-elected

Except that Ashcroft has her neck and neck with Buckland (http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2015/01/south-swindon/)

If you're a bit of a political nerd like I am, Ashcroft's local polls are fascinating.

He also has Clegg just three points up in Sheffield Hallam. People talk about Portillo in 1997, but if Clegg loses his seat I will laugh myself into a hernia.

Edit: take that back, he's three points BEHIND. http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2015/02/sheffield-hallam-doncaster-north-thanet-south/#more-7536


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, February 8, 2015, 23:21:01
Snelgrove is certainly putting the work in and knocking on doors. She's out and about and has been for months. I think she will win and I think Tomlinson will win the other seat, splitting the town.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Outletred on Monday, February 9, 2015, 00:14:29
Snelgrove is certainly putting the work in and knocking on doors. She's out and about and has been for months. I think she will win and I think Tomlinson will win the other seat, splitting the town.


She has got no chance- is about as intelligent as a wet fart. To win in Swindon you have to win over floating voters and considering her record last time in post she has no chance.

The only thing she does do is get herself into the paper a lot by jumping on every bandwagon going. Clueless as is the whole of the Labour Party- they only evwe have one answer Tax, Borrow and Spend- they've learnt nothing from their past mistakes


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Monday, February 9, 2015, 00:18:53
Interesting that the Labour wipe out predicted in Scotland this May could lead, in all probability, to a Labour/SNP coalition at Westminster.

Guardian: Scotland Poll Shows a Nation on the Verge of Abandoning Labour (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/datablog/2015/feb/04/scotland-poll-shows-a-nation-on-the-verge-of-abandoning-labour)

I'm trying to work through the likely chain of events that would follow if Labour tried to form a government with the SNP.  One way or another, I think that there's a good chance that it could lead to independence for Scotland by the back door.

Lets fucking hope so


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Monday, February 9, 2015, 00:20:34
Did you see inside the commons? The Tories send e-mails to their mps telling them to ask camoron prepared questions at pmq's. Rather than using the time to do their job and represent their constituents. I wonder if our Tory boy wanker mps have followed these orders?

So until this enlightenment, did you think that the questions at PQT where off the cuff ?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, February 9, 2015, 10:33:56
So until this enlightenment, did you think that the questions at PQT where off the cuff ?

To a point. I certainly didn't think it was loaded to the level it is. I naively thought questions were genuine on the whole.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Monday, February 9, 2015, 18:18:26
To a point. I certainly didn't think it was loaded to the level it is. I naively thought questions were genuine on the whole.
really? You do surprise me....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Monday, February 9, 2015, 18:22:22
Almost 40 Labour MPs employ staff on zero-hours contracts despite Ed Miliband claiming they have 'no place' in Britain........oh my days!

Nasty Tories eh Reg? Wait a minute, they're not Tories, or are they?    :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Monday, February 9, 2015, 19:04:10
They are all cunts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Monday, February 9, 2015, 20:47:26
Zero hour fucking contracts should be illegal. They are convenient for the unemployment stats though.

Flash is right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 16:42:49
Anyone tried this: https://www.politicalcompass.org/

My results attached


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 17:08:38
Anyone tried this: https://www.politicalcompass.org/

My results attached

No great surprise in my result, however I wonder how many Labour voters consider the party to be so right wing and authoritarian!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 17:51:23
Anyone tried this: https://www.politicalcompass.org/

My results attached

Well I'm just to your left. In reality I think I'm a bit closer to the centre than that. But it doesn't matter since I don't get a vote anywhere.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 17:53:49
(http://i.imgur.com/lAtEKce.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 17:55:22
Political compass is renowned for telling everyone that they're left wing libertarian and that all the established parties are basically Hitler.

This one seems to be a bit more accurate, based on UK political parties and generally doesn't tell people they're all utopian lefties https://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=q_uk1


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 18:05:47
I got bored and gave up half-way through, which sums up my political alignment perfectly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 18:14:05
Political compass is renowned for telling everyone that they're left wing libertarian and that all the established parties are basically Hitler.

This one seems to be a bit more accurate, based on UK political parties and generally doesn't tell people they're all utopian lefties https://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=q_uk1
My result showed Liberal Democrats, which is a shame.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 18:14:58
I got 5 squares from the left directly on the horizontal line on the first one.
Labour top on 85% on the second one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 18:18:18
You sunk my battleship.

Im slightly to the left of Gandhi.  That fascist twat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 18:42:11
The Greens are the party I have least in common with.

Thank fuck for that, I don't do tree hugging


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 19:05:42
Political compass is renowned for telling everyone that they're left wing libertarian and that all the established parties are basically Hitler.

This one seems to be a bit more accurate, based on UK political parties and generally doesn't tell people they're all utopian lefties https://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=q_uk1

90% labour
83% liberal
82% green


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 19:08:37
My result showed Liberal Democrats, which is a shame.

You'll have to shag Norman Scott now.

Could prove a bit messy


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 19:08:50
No huge surprise

(http://i.imgur.com/niizEdQ.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 19:17:02
Green on the first one, Labour 86% on the 2nd one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 19:27:30
OK, I thought I'd make an effort:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/jamiethon/chart_zpsvgve6o53.png) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jamiethon/media/chart_zpsvgve6o53.png.html)

I think the last 2 pages of question influenced the results rather a lot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 19:29:10
My result showed Liberal Democrats, which is a shame.

Me too. How disappointing. I vote Labour. Now I'm confused.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 19:58:29
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y524/Duncoman/political%20leaning_zps3g4vwfbq.png)

Bit more libertarian than I thought I'd be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 20:02:43
OK, I thought I'd make an effort:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/jamiethon/chart_zpsvgve6o53.png) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jamiethon/media/chart_zpsvgve6o53.png.html)

I think the last 2 pages of question influenced the results rather a lot.
That's pretty much where I landed on the first survey which, I think, equates to the Green Party. The second one showed me as Lib Dem, which leaves me in quandary.
Do I vote for a useless bunch of cunts, with no chance of having any influence in Parliament, or do I ......(you can make the last bit up yourselves).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 22:30:52
Just did the second test thing. I'm surprised how lib dem my views make me. Not that I ever plan to vote in anything other than jest, if I can be arsed.

Lib dems 93%
Labour 89%
Green 76%


Title: Re:
Post by: sonicyouth on Thursday, February 12, 2015, 22:58:10
Green 94%
Labour 89%
Lib Dem 83%

I was planning on voting Green.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Tuesday, February 24, 2015, 20:47:41
Anyone still considering voting green ?

yea ?................have a listen to this............

http://www.lbc.co.uk/incredibly-awkward-interview-with-natalie-bennett-105384


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, February 24, 2015, 20:58:36
Labour  92%
Lib Dem 76%
Green   76%


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, February 24, 2015, 21:36:35
Anyone still considering voting green ?

yea ?................have a listen to this............

http://www.lbc.co.uk/incredibly-awkward-interview-with-natalie-bennett-105384

Holy shit, that was bad.  I won't even be able to use them as a protest vote after listening to that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, February 24, 2015, 21:53:35
Holy shit, that was bad.  I won't even be able to use them as a protest vote after listening to that.

You'd think she might have learnt her lesson after her car crash interview with Andrew Neil in January...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dFn8RIXOBE


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Tuesday, February 24, 2015, 21:54:35
And anyone thinking of voting for UKIP should watch the BBC "Meet The Ukippers" documentary that was on the other evening, it was so bad in places it was more like a mockumentary than the real thing. Nice write up here....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11429785/Meet-the-Ukippers-9-slightly-terrifying-things-we-learned.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 00:26:48
Yes, Bennett's interview was bad, but she didn't try and lie her way through it, and is only human at the end of the day. Her 'performance'.shouldn't effect how you read the manifesto or judge your local candidates.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 08:21:02
That interview was the funniest political 5 minutes I've seen since In The Thick of It.

She's obviously completely out of her depth and shouldn't be anywhere near the TV debates, for her own good. Complete laughing stock and to blame it on a cold? Dear oh dear.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 08:25:50
Yes, Bennett's interview was bad, but she didn't try and lie her way through it, and is only human at the end of the day. Her 'performance'.shouldn't effect how you read the manifesto or judge your local candidates.

I agree to a degree, however she/they really need to up their game, just imagine if Milliband had stumbled over  policies like this it would have been everywhere or if Farage had been as poor it would be grasped as being evidence of their lack of substance.

The thing is it does affect the manifesto as it makes it clear that some substantial parts of the document have not remotely been costed which makes you wonder what else is just hypothetical in the document. Whilst this is not surprising, very naive to admit this.

I suspect that the Greens need to learn from the LibDems and if they have any interest in getting involved in a post election coalition make sure they don't have any eye catching manifesto points which are included on the basis that it doesn't really matter as they won't get elected - which haunt you if you do obtain an element of power.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: manc_red on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 09:04:02
I agree to a degree, however she/they really need to up their game, just imagine if Milliband had stumbled over  policies like this it would have been everywhere or if Farage had been as poor it would be grasped as being evidence of their lack of substance.

The thing is it does affect the manifesto as it makes it clear that some substantial parts of the document have not remotely been costed

I only read the transcript, but it doesn't appear to at all. She says there is a fully costed programme which will be set out in the manifesto.

It's a gaffe, obviously, and will of course be seized upon but it's a failure of communication/presentation rather than a reflection on the actual policy.

God help her in the TV debates though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 09:48:11
What with recent tv exposure on UKIP / Green party and Milliband`s general confusing message surely it`s going to be Cameron`s to lose.......?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 10:54:36
I only read the transcript, but it doesn't appear to at all. She says there is a fully costed programme which will be set out in the manifesto.

It's a gaffe, obviously, and will of course be seized upon but it's a failure of communication/presentation rather than a reflection on the actual policy.

God help her in the TV debates though.

I may be a little blurred in my approach to the Greens, we have had them as local councillors here for many years and the simple fact is they don't have any workable policies. We get a monthly newsletter which outlines their successes (mainly litter picking and writing letters to people complaining about things - which never change) - and they are as happy to spin the truth as the next party when it suits them.

Our ward is an odd mix of terraced housing mainly populated by the liberal academics who work at the university and a council estate (I am not an academic but live in that bit). They were elected by the academics and if you want policies to suit the middle classes then you are laughing.

A particular highlight was an attempt to change the parking regulations in our street so that I (and everyone else on our side) would have to pay £40 a year to reduce overall parking by 60%, after three consultation process (god knows how much that cost) when challenged they claimed that it was the County Council pushing it through, I used to work at the County Council and know people in highways - they confirmed that they had told the Green Councillors repeatedly there was no evidence to support the policy but had been overruled.

Sorry to go on, I just get angry when the Greens present themselves as being whiter than white, they may not be as corrupt as the others but they sure as hell will play the political game and lie when it suits them!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 10:56:43
Green Party me hairy arse!

Might as well vote for the Raving Loonies


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 11:00:50
The Greens do have some people who are competent with numbers, it's just that Bennett isn't one of them. I really don't know why she's the leader to be honest, she's pretty regularly a poor media performer.

Molly Scott Cato is a Green MEP and is an economics lecturer, so I'm presuming she can at least add up.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 11:20:00
And anyone thinking of voting for UKIP should watch the BBC "Meet The Ukippers" documentary that was on the other evening, it was so bad in places it was more like a mockumentary than the real thing. Nice write up here....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11429785/Meet-the-Ukippers-9-slightly-terrifying-things-we-learned.html

That's exactly why I'm voting for them. If lunatics like that vote for them, I'm in. The idea of UKIP having a say in our affairs (if they actually do get to have a say) is highly amusing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 11:32:33
That's exactly why I'm voting for them. If lunatics like that vote for them, I'm in. The idea of UKIP having a say in our affairs (if they actually do get to have a say) is highly amusing.

Yeah, fucking hilarious having racists in charge.

At least the Greens are harmless.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 12:07:23
The green leader is guilty of getting nervous, forgetting things and not being the best orator. That said they would have made calculations etc before coming up with policies. Cameron is a good talker but lies through his teeth. Ukip are idiots. I'm staggered anyone could seriously consider voting for them


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 12:15:35
Yeah, fucking hilarious having racists in charge.

At least the Greens are harmless.
I wouldn't say giving a bunch of clueless lentil knitters any responsibility in running the country is 'harmless'.
That's the problem though, isn't it? The choices on offer to the electorate are very underwhelming:

Conservatives - Sponsored by Big Business, run by Big Business, selfish, arrogant & looking out for themselves. Appeal to businessmen, tax dodging businessmen, rich people who want to be richer and self serving Public school boys.

Labour - Run by someone with all the charisma of a limp lettuce and full of great ideas, but no tangible ways to pay for them. Appeal to middle aged Trade Unionists and working class people who vote Labour because they always vote Labour, like some kind of fucking statement of their roots.

Lib Dems - Not trusted by a large proportion of people for their performance in government and a leader who appears to be Cameron's bitch. Appeal to people who don't want to vote Tory but hate Labour and aren't racist.

UKIP - Racist, bigoted, madder than a box of frogs and dangerous as fuck. Appeal to people who 'don't like coloureds' and those who think that immigrants are the cause for all their problems. (They're not. You are the cause for most of your problems).

Greens - Some great ideas, but let's face it they haven't got a fucking clue. Appeal to sandal wearing, middle-class, right-on bellends. 

I can't for the life of me understand why so many people feel disenfranchised.....



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 13:36:44
At least the Greens are harmless.

Talk to people from Brighton, where the Greens run the council and have their only sitting MP, and they'll tell you the Greens are far from harmless.  The party is split down the middle between those who are genuine environmentalists and those who are there because they believe in progressive/liberal politics and think that the Greens are the only party that can deliver that.  The result is that local services are in a complete mess.  Unbelievably, the recycling record there is well below the national average.

I simply don't buy the argument that Natalie Bennett's performance in recent interviews is down to being off colour.  I think it demonstrates that she's out of her depth and calls the Greens' competence/ability to govern in to question...which is highly relevant when deciding who to vote for.  I wouldn't go anywhere near them at the moment.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 13:41:47
Talk to people from Brighton, where the Greens run the council and have their only sitting MP, and they'll tell you the Greens are far from harmless.  The party is split down the middle between those who are genuine environmentalists and those who are there because they believe in progressive/liberal politics and think that the Greens are the only party that can deliver that.  The result is that local services are in a complete mess.  Unbelievably, the recycling record there is well below the national average.

I simply don't buy the argument that Natalie Bennett's performance in recent interviews is down to being off colour.  I think it demonstrates that she's out of her depth and calls the Greens' competence/ability to govern in to question...which is highly relevant when deciding who to vote for.  I wouldn't go anywhere near them at the moment.

'Harmless' meaning actually not doing any physical harm to people. I'm not saying they're brilliant or even good, just that unlike UKIP they don't have a platform built upon the twin pillars of casual racism and fear.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 14:39:38
Talk to people from Brighton, where the Greens run the council and have their only sitting MP, and they'll tell you the Greens are far from harmless.  The party is split down the middle between those who are genuine environmentalists and those who are there because they believe in progressive/liberal politics and think that the Greens are the only party that can deliver that.  The result is that local services are in a complete mess.  Unbelievably, the recycling record there is well below the national average.

I simply don't buy the argument that Natalie Bennett's performance in recent interviews is down to being off colour.  I think it demonstrates that she's out of her depth and calls the Greens' competence/ability to govern in to question...which is highly relevant when deciding who to vote for.  I wouldn't go anywhere near them at the moment.

Agree with all of the above, what is grating a little is it seems to be the same commentators in the media (and being repeated all over my Facebook feed) who slate Farage for being unprofessional and lacking substance who are peddling this idea that its the poor little Greens and people should cut them some slack.

Yes criticise UKIP for what they are, but can we at least have some sort of consistency.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 16:28:29
Yeah, fucking hilarious having racists in charge.

Better to do something that's going to be unsettling and might at least cause a problem. Why fuck about pretending one of the other cunts is the answer? This country is fucked and every one of them is a hateful idiot.

I at least like the idea that if enough people were to do it, it might send out a warning shot across the bow of the establishment. Why do we have to continue to be fucked by the ruling class? Why should we continue to vote for the same old white* posh twats who only care about themselves? It's clearly worked so well for so long... Yeah, lets keep doing that.


*who obviously provide enough soundbites to prove they're definitely not racists


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 17:04:57
Why should we continue to vote for the same old white* posh twats who only care about themselves?
You mean like Nigel Farage for example?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 17:13:56
You mean like Nigel Farage for example?

Yes. You've slightly missed my point though - Farage is a protest vote. (Although in reading back I suppose that isn't obvious, I'd never want a cunt like that in power.)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 17:33:43
Yes. You've slightly missed my point though - Farage is a protest vote.
I did get that. Just a very odd protest - unless you're protesting against immigrants, the EU or the NHS? Because that's mainly what differentiates him from the other old white posh twats.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 17:35:08
You mean like Nigel Farage for example?

And Cameron, Clegg, Milliband, Bennett the list goes on, not sure when you would get to someone who didn't meet this criteria!

Politics as it stands in this country is somewhat dominated by 'White posh twat'


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 17:37:28
I did get that. Just a very odd protest - unless you're protesting against immigrants, the EU or the NHS? Because that's mainly what differentiates him from the other old white posh twats.

Not sure where one should go with a protest vote, as I would be loathe to give any of the emerging parties a vote as it would only encourage them... possibly a nice local independent candidate who is actually standing for something real....

Or as a friend of mine suggests, just draw a cock on the voting paper... Although I fear that could be misinterpreted as a vote for some of them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 17:42:16
I did get that. Just a very odd protest - unless you're protesting against immigrants, the EU or the NHS? Because that's mainly what differentiates him from the other old white posh twats.

Perhaps, but all other forms of protest are toothless and I refuse to vote for another goon who doesn't do anything worth remembering.

If they were to somehow end up having a say in our country (or maybe come close) it might fuck some shit up and cause some actual passion to emerge from people. We might grow some balls and start to stand up for ourselves (as a populace, en masse).

Shit isn't good and we all rollover and continue to vindicate this broken system. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

And Cameron, Clegg, Milliband, Bennett the list goes on, not sure when you would get to someone who didn't meet this criteria!

Politics as it stands in this country is somewhat dominated by 'White posh twat'

Exactly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 17:47:42
And Cameron, Clegg, Milliband, Bennett the list goes on, not sure when you would get to someone who didn't meet this criteria!

Politics as it stands in this country is somewhat dominated by 'White posh twat'

Bennett is Australian, is it even possible to be Australian and posh?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 17:58:59
Bennett is Australian, is it even possible to be Australian and posh?

(http://www.quotecollection.com/author-images/dame-edna-everage-3.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 18:02:06
Bennett is Australian, is it even possible to be Australian and posh?

I assume she is a British Citizen now anyway?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 18:34:43
Perhaps, but all other forms of protest are toothless and I refuse to vote for another goon who doesn't do anything worth remembering.

If they were to somehow end up having a say in our country (or maybe come close) it might fuck some shit up and cause some actual passion to emerge from people. We might grow some balls and start to stand up for ourselves (as a populace, en masse).

Shit isn't good and we all rollover and continue to vindicate this broken system. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.
I get that. And I'm struggling to suggest a decent alternative tbh as I share your despair at the current establishment, all different shades of the same shite. But I struggle more with the concept that despairing of the establishment would lead me to vote for a rabble of racist bigots with barely a coherent thought between them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 18:41:39
I get that. And I'm struggling to suggest a decent alternative tbh as I share your despair at the current establishment, all different shades of the same shite. But I struggle more with the concept that despairing of the establishment would lead me to vote for a rabble of racist bigots with barely a coherent thought between them.

But they are asking the questions no-one else is. Such as what happens when we run out of renewable energy...


Title: Re:
Post by: london_red on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 19:11:57
As people have said, there's no appealing options regardless of where you sit on the political spectrum.

Complacency, and far too many vested interests have resulted in a number of shades of the same shite.

The Tories may be backed by big business but Labour as they currently are are no better - they're just in different people's pockets.

This lot are too small and unknown to be a legitimate option (yet) - I think they might have candidates standing in two constituencies?

http://www.yppuk.org/p/manifesto.html?m=1

But their values seem closest to my own, personally.

Progressive, different policies that get at the heart of what has driven inequality between rich and poor, and a headline policy that seems fair as well as economically stimulative? Not something I've seen from any of the established parties.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 19:18:28
But they are asking the questions no-one else is. Such as what happens when we run out of renewable energy...

Surely, the point of renewable energy is that it doesn't run out


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 19:24:42
Surely, the point of renewable energy is that it doesn't run out

Henceforth, no one else is asking that question...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 19:26:06
Surely, the point of renewable energy is that it doesn't run out
I dearly hope you are playing along but for completeness....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-candidate-victoria-ayling-asks-in-meeting-what-happens-when-renewable-energy-runs-out-10057008.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 20:31:47
I get that. And I'm struggling to suggest a decent alternative tbh as I share your despair at the current establishment, all different shades of the same shite. But I struggle more with the concept that despairing of the establishment would lead me to vote for a rabble of racist bigots with barely a coherent thought between them.

I understand where you're coming from, but voting the same way has achieved nothing. Something has to change and it'll only change by doing something drastic. Besides, do you actually think they could ever get into power? And if they did get in, do you not in anyway think that being racist and bigoted wouldn't cause some sort of uprising, the like of which we need?*

Actually, typing that makes me realise nothing would change. People will still moan about their neighbour who drives a BMW, because they don't, and will still watch X-Factor and spend their lives on Facebook debating soap operas.

*In all honestly, why, unlike every party since the dawn of time, would they actually follow through on any policies? I can't imagine business would allow them to do anything that harms their interests and I sadly don't think anything would change.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 20:43:52
Anyone who votes UKIP, however they justify it to themselves, is a fucking idiot at best.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 20:47:44
Herthab for PM.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 21:03:41
Anyone who votes UKIP, however they justify it to themselves, is a fucking idiot at best.


I'm a fucking idiot at best


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 21:30:01
I am effectively disenfranchised.  Live in a safe Tory seat, and do not intend to vote Tory.  Under the current First Past the Post (FPTP) voting system, my vote is therefore worthless.  I might as save myself the bother going to the polling station, because my vote will change nothing (other than to improve the turnout figure.)

For that reason alone, I am giving serious thought to the possibility that I might not vote at all this time around - which would be a first for me.  To vote would be to lend support to the current voting system, which I do not approve of.  I'm politically interested...always have been.  So it depresses me that I feel this way.  But I do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 21:32:37
Anyone who votes UKIP, however they justify it to themselves, is a fucking idiot at best.

This post helps show exactly my motivation for voting UKIP. If it makes you angry, hopefully it makes countless others angry. Then, if they somehow ended up getting to have a say in our lives, maybe people can get really angry, wake the fuck up and actually do something.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 21:49:04
I understand where you're coming from, but voting the same way has achieved nothing. Something has to change and it'll only change by doing something drastic. Besides, do you actually think they could ever get into power? And if they did get in, do you not in anyway think that being racist and bigoted wouldn't cause some sort of uprising, the like of which we need?*
No, I think the most likely outcome from a strong UKIP showing at the election is to drive the mainstream parties even further into knee-jerk rightwing policies on all the standard Daily Express issues UKIP stands for. Or at the worst case they form the minority part of a coalition with the Tories - that's what the country really needs, a Tory government with a minority partner egging them on to be even more right wing, even more dismantling of the NHS, even more authoritarian, even more dog-whistle racism. That's quite some vision you're voting for there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: manc_red on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 21:59:49
Or at the worst case they form the minority part of a coalition with the Tories

A genuinely terrifying prospect.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 22:08:20
No, I think the most likely outcome from a strong UKIP showing at the election is to drive the mainstream parties even further into knee-jerk rightwing policies on all the standard Daily Express issues UKIP stands for. Or at the worst case they form the minority part of a coalition with the Tories - that's what the country really needs, a Tory government with a minority partner egging them on to be even more right wing, even more dismantling of the NHS, even more authoritarian, even more dog-whistle racism. That's quite some vision you're voting for there.

Do you honestly think they're going to get any power?

I suppose the reality of the situation is nothing will really change. Maybe red for blue and a few token words about something making headlines, then maybe a short period of occasional justification as to why none of their policies have come to fruition.

And to acknowledge what you've said: you know far more than me about the political system, and clearly have greater trust in it, so what you say carries far more weight than anything I've typed (obviously :) ). I would hope though, that if something that awful were to happen I'd firstly be stoned to death and secondly people might start trying to fight this fucked up system.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 22:26:44
My local constituency is North Dorset.

UKIP lost to the Conservatives here by a very narrow margin

The fact I could be typing this from a place where 'immigrants should get out because this is OUR country' is our political leaning is a fucking terrifying concept.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 22:30:05
Do you honestly think they're going to get any power?

They don't need to get power, they just need to get enough support to get the Tories to turn rightwards. I know internet lefties (although I usually am one) generally paint Cameron as the devil incarnate, but far worse than him lurks on the right of the Tory party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 23:24:57
They don't need to get power, they just need to get enough support to get the Tories to turn rightwards. I know internet lefties (although I usually am one) generally paint Cameron as the devil incarnate, but far worse than him lurks on the right of the Tory party.
and on the left side of the ahem "New" Labour party. Or are they really the "old" Labour party? Just for balance, just for balance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 23:39:07
And to acknowledge what you've said: you know far more than me about the political system
I don't think I do
and clearly have greater trust in it
I definitely don't. I think the most likely outcome of what you're advocating would be a whole series of very tawdry deals which would push our political mainstream several shades to the right with some very unpleasant consquences for the most vulnerable. And I don't think any of our oh-so-principled mainstream parties would blanch even a shade if they sniffed power at the end of it.
so what you say carries far more weight than anything I've typed (obviously :) ).
No it doesn't, that's daft. But I don't share your faith in a Russell Brand style uprising brought on by the excesses of the right. It's been tried before - the European far right and far left both tried it in the 70s - the Italian fascists referred to it as "The Strategy of Tension", the idea being that if they bombed enough tube stations as a counter to far-left terrorism there'd be counter-reaction from the left and eventually a military coup as the state fell apart. While the ultra-left thought if they bombed stuff, then there'd be a state crackdown which would force people into revolt. Neither happened. But a lot of innocent people suffered and died.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 00:45:19
No, I think the most likely outcome from a strong UKIP showing at the election is to drive the mainstream parties even further into knee-jerk rightwing policies on all the standard Daily Express issues UKIP stands for. Or at the worst case they form the minority part of a coalition with the Tories - that's what the country really needs, a Tory government with a minority partner egging them on to be even more right wing, even more dismantling of the NHS, even more authoritarian, even more dog-whistle racism. That's quite some vision you're voting for there.

I think you're making the mistake that UKIP has any polices - on the NHS or indeed anything else.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 01:32:47
.  I'm politically interested...always have been. 

Get involved then at the grass roots...democracy is a fragile flower, for example in Swindon South, there are 30/40 people prepared to put themselves out, to try and get Buckland re-elected....slightly less in Swindon North for Tomlinson.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 05:13:31
I'm a fucking idiot at best
:nod:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 10:42:46
I think you're making the mistake that UKIP has any polices - on the NHS or indeed anything else.
To be fair, I don't think I've ever accused UKIP of having any actual policies (best exemplified by Farage dismissing any commitment given in their manifesto at the last election on the grounds that he hadn't even read it!) but "Nigel's knee-jerks" which is what they have in place of policy are consistently unpleasant and he's plainly extremely hostile to the NHS.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 11:14:22
I'm a fucking idiot at best
Considering your previous comments on political issues I'm surprised you could consider voting for a party which seems to represent the complete opposite of your personal views. You hate the Tories yet will you vote for an even worse option?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 11:52:01
I think a lot of people this time around are simply looking to shake up the Establishment/established order.  The Expenses Scandal in 2010 was the start; and it's grown from there.

How do you achieve that?  In England, many feel that voting UKIP represents the clearest way.  And in Scotland, it's voting for the SNP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 12:04:09
Christ on a fucking bike.  A UKIP vote a protest against expenses scandals?  For fucks sake those cunts have taken some lovely european jobs and are hoovering up every bit of cash they can out of it.  Not because they want to expose the waste in the political system but because they want their snouts in the trough.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 12:48:28
To be fair, I don't think I've ever accused UKIP of having any actual policies (best exemplified by Farage dismissing any commitment given in their manifesto at the last election on the grounds that he hadn't even read it!) but "Nigel's knee-jerks" which is what they have in place of policy are consistently unpleasant and he's plainly extremely hostile to the NHS.

Yep, "Farage's knee jerks" is not a bad description. I won't worry, UKIP's polling trend is most decidedly on the down trajectory - he's taken the once promising party (20 years ago) into a political cul-de-sac.

I'll be very surprised if they end up with more than one seat -Carswell, which has more to do with his own personal popularity locally than anything else.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 13:21:14
Considering your previous comments on political issues I'm surprised you could consider voting for a party which seems to represent the complete opposite of your personal views. You hate the Tories yet will you vote for an even worse option?
arriba, i know its a strange one as I'm a Labour man but the biggest issue for me is Europe, their creeping federalisation and the arrogance of knowing better than anyone.....even Ed Balls. I suppose one of the plusses of never being elected or accountable to anyone.
I'm not particularly bothered about immigration. If we have a let all come in policy then let it be our policy - not a dictat from Europe.
I'm not bothered about sovereignty as I'd happilliy put the Queen in a council house in Halifax or even better next door to Thor.
I'm not against Europe - I'm anti EU. I'm quite happy to trade freely with them as originally signed up for.
For me its about having more control of our own destiny.
I know this will be controversial buit I'd happilly be more aligned to the USA than Europe, althuogh preferably neither.
Labour used to be the anti EU party.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, February 26, 2015, 14:03:47
Labour used to be the anti EU party.


Yes...often forgotten that. Labour, up untill 1988, had a proud history of opposing membership of the EEC/EU project. Particularly Hugh Gaitskell who was (and remains) the only leader to see properly the project for what it is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, March 5, 2015, 11:53:03
Imagine being prime minister and be actively trying to avoid debating Ed sodding Milliband.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Thursday, March 5, 2015, 12:27:53
Imagine being prime minister and be actively trying to avoid debating Ed sodding Milliband.

And then trying to give an air of legitimacy to the raving nutters on the far right of your party who are fleeing like rats by insisting they appear in the debate.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Thursday, March 5, 2015, 23:01:16
arriba, i know its a strange one as I'm a Labour man but the biggest issue for me is Europe, their creeping federalisation and the arrogance of knowing better than anyone.....even Ed Balls. I suppose one of the plusses of never being elected or accountable to anyone.
I'm not particularly bothered about immigration. If we have a let all come in policy then let it be our policy - not a dictat from Europe.
I'm not bothered about sovereignty as I'd happilliy put the Queen in a council house in Halifax or even better next door to Thor.
I'm not against Europe - I'm anti EU. I'm quite happy to trade freely with them as originally signed up for.
For me its about having more control of our own destiny.
I know this will be controversial buit I'd happilly be more aligned to the USA than Europe, althuogh preferably neither.
Labour used to be the anti EU party.




I nearly agree with you.

Where I disagree.

Believe it or not the Royal family bring in far more than they cost in terms of £'s & standing within the world. Getting rid of them and becoming a republic would IMHO be a retrograde step, the commonwealth would also suffer.

Unfettered immigration had been detrimental on so many levels to everyone, not least the unskilled working class that labour new or old has purported to represent. Not withstanding the amount of undesirable scum that has entered via Europe and the world at large and is underminding our way of life and pissing in our faces. The human rights act also needs to be repealed.

Europe is my beef massively. Corrupt. Anti competive, full of ex communists, un elected beaurocrats pissing billions of € & our £'s Down the drain. The scaremongering by certain political & vested interested individuals WRT jobs and business. As a child of an immigrant myself I fully support immigration, however this needs checks and balances and I have to say that Ukip is offering millions of disenfranchised voters of ALL sides a voice whether mainstream politics like it or not. It is the fault of mainstream politics and the political elite over the years that Ukip have and are gaining critical mass and why the broad sheets as well as red tops report regular smear and scare stories. This is to maintain the status quo, which brings us all in to line as good little subserviant citizens of the system.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 13, 2015, 10:19:51
Eight weeks out from a general election, and the main political story of the day (according to the main broadsheets) is what Ed Miliband's kitchen looks like.

Jesus wept.  And they wonder why people are turning away from politics.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Friday, March 13, 2015, 10:55:27
Negative campaigning as usual.

Nobody has actually got any new, exciting policies so it all disintegrates into scaremongering, ya boo sucks to you politics.

A curse on all their mansions


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 13, 2015, 11:10:22
It's worse than that though.  I try to get a balanced view of most stories, so have got in to the habit of visiting the Telegraph site followed immediately by the Guardian - and they're as bad as each other.  Stuff like this is no more than gossip.  It's truly pathetic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bob's Orange on Friday, March 13, 2015, 11:11:04
Whichever party advocates on the spot fines for people who walk whilst - using mobile phones/reading newspapers/books/watching films/tv programmes on their ipads gets my vote.

Fines should be doubled for doing this on train platforms and/or steps.

I think I've already mentioned this in the irritates me thread.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 13, 2015, 11:49:49
Eight weeks out from a general election, and the main political story of the day (according to the main broadsheets) is what Ed Miliband's kitchen looks like.

Jesus wept.  And they wonder why people are turning away from politics.

I've had a look at my Guardian, and can find a headline story, about how invasive surveillance of people's personal data will get a complete overhaul....and inside how Labour is proposing to give Ofgem powers to cut fuel bills if elected, and a massive Tory privatisation plan for the NHS.

I don't think you can turn away from politics, but you can fail to see what is going on around you....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 13, 2015, 12:41:03
Not saying there is an absence of serious debate, Reg.  Just that the irrelevant gossip/twattery is given undue prominence.

Both the Guardian and the Telegraph have the picture of the Milibands in their kitchenette at the very top of their respective web pages at the moment.  The Telegraph leads with the 'story' (in the Guardian, it's second) - and they even have an informative follow up piece on how Kate Middleton also has a second kitchen.

It's worse than pathetic.  These are two of the leading broadsheets/serious news outlets.  And they've turned in to comics.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 13, 2015, 12:55:18
Not saying there is an absence of serious debate, Reg.  Just that the irrelevant gossip/twattery is given undue prominence.

Both the Guardian and the Telegraph have the picture of the Milibands in their kitchenette at the very top of their respective web pages at the moment.  The Telegraph leads with the 'story' (in the Guardian, it's second) - and they even have an informative follow up piece on how Kate Middleton also has a second kitchen.

It's worse than pathetic.  These are two of the leading broadsheets/serious news outlets.  And they've turned in to comics.

Not in the hard copy.....maybe it's something to do with the perceived audience.  The Guardian last year won the Pulitzer prize for public service....due to its work on exposing the kinds of activities undertaken by the security services....which suggests to me it's still a serious newspaper.  However, to survive in this post modern world, you can't be too po-faced...so it does throw in some bollocks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 13, 2015, 13:00:43
I don't think you can turn away from politics, but you can fail to see what is going on around you....
Yes, although that process can be aided by having your attention redirected elsewhere


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 13, 2015, 13:41:21
Not saying there is an absence of serious debate, Reg.  Just that the irrelevant gossip/twattery is given undue prominence.

Both the Guardian and the Telegraph have the picture of the Milibands in their kitchenette at the very top of their respective web pages at the moment.  The Telegraph leads with the 'story' (in the Guardian, it's second) - and they even have an informative follow up piece on how Kate Middleton also has a second kitchen.

It's worse than pathetic.  These are two of the leading broadsheets/serious news outlets.  And they've turned in to comics.

It is the most uninspiring election campaign of my life so far, and I think this is part of the medias problem with it. Instead of any policies its just tit for tat rubbish, take the last PMQ's on one hand we have Milliband banging on about debates (something which incumbent parties always shy away from - seem to remember Cameron baiting Brown similarly last time), and in response we have Cameron banging on about what Labour may do after the election.

I can understand why the media are looking for other stories, Millibands second kitchen looks quite nice, although green basket..... really!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 22:14:24
Anyone watching the channel 4 not quite a debate? Cameron struggling, Paxman is going in strong. Think Milliband may be a little nervous...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 22:16:35
Squirming fucker - but TBF no politician is any different.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 22:19:21
Paxman will be only winner here.

He has the better of Cameron and he will absolutley destroy Ed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 22:23:39
But no politician can defend every single thing they have said in the past and the public realise it.

The only choice we have, as voters, is between one lying bastard and another lying bastard.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir Pissalot on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 22:35:26
As ever, it's a choice of the lesser of two evils.  Ignoring all the false promises, lies and other bollocks they both come out with, it comes down to which of the parties would you prefer to have control of the country's purse strings for the next 5 years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 22:39:49
Cameron very disingenuous asked about private providers in the NHS: talking about charities and hospices. That clearly isn't what people have a problem with is it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 22:42:44
I have recently had a knee replacement - via the NHS I got it done privately at the Ridgeway.

Done within 18 weeks between getting the OK and getting it done.

Brilliant!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 22:52:05
Kay Burley has interrupted Miliband twice in three questions, didn't interrupt Cameron once. Hmm.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 22:53:25
Why hasn't Paxman grilled him before the audience questions?

Cracking cheese, Gromit


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 22:53:59
Why hasn't Paxman grilled him before the audience questions?

Cracking cheese, Gromit

They're saving that for the end.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JoeMezz on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 23:21:37
Don't think Paxman has given Milliband a chance to answer his questions properly, at least he's been honest and not tried to hide behind lies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: The Grim Reaper on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 23:23:11
As ever, it's a choice of the lesser of two evils.  Ignoring all the false promises, lies and other bollocks they both come out with, it comes down to which of the parties would you prefer to have control of the country's purse strings for the next 5 years.

Nail. Head. Hit. As much as I think Cameron is a smug, slimy posh twat I still think currently he is the best bet to continue the recovery of our country. The thought of Ed Milliband as PM somewhat worries me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 23:24:46
I think Ed's held up fairly well, certainly better than I expected. The two times he's cracked have been mentions of his brother being a better candidate though, that wound still looks pretty sore.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JoeMezz on Thursday, March 26, 2015, 23:27:03
I don't personally see what will be achieved by talking about his brother.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 27, 2015, 00:40:03
Kay Burley has interrupted Miliband twice in three questions, didn't interrupt Cameron once. Hmm.
Does that surprise you in any way whatsoever? Kay Burley actually doing a reasonable impression of an actual journalist, rather than a partisan hack, now there would be an image to conjure with


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 27, 2015, 00:40:55
I don't personally see what will be achieved by talking about his brother.
They might make him cry. That would be great telly. Oh, sorry, were you wondering about who might be better at governing the country?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 27, 2015, 00:42:12
Don't think Paxman has given Milliband a chance to answer his questions properly
That's probably been in his favour, doesn't let him give away what a twonk he actually is


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Friday, March 27, 2015, 02:38:39
Actually, Milliband - when he was allowed to - communicated much better than Cameron, certainly in the audience questions, and gave clearer answers.  Although Paxman was pretty ruthless with him, I would say Milliband won the evening.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, March 27, 2015, 09:12:05
The thought of Ed Milliband as PM somewhat worries me.

I'd be more concerned about Ed Balls being in charge of the Treasury.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, March 27, 2015, 09:28:38
only saw the paxman part of Milliband, the thought of him in charge of the country nearly make me want to vote Tory, nearly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, March 27, 2015, 09:37:24
Cameron finds it almost impossible to answer a direct question and comes across as a bit of a cunt. Milliband looks like a rabbit in headlights and doesn't appear very statesmanlike at all.

Unfortunately politics in this country is becoming more and more like The US, where it's personalities, not policies, that are the most important thing. Cameron is a fucking lizard, Milliband is a bumbling incompetent, Clegg is a wimp and Farage is a joke.

Tough choice for the masses....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Friday, March 27, 2015, 10:01:36
Couldn`t bring myself to watch as I see absolutely no point in the TV debates - a few years ago it made Nick Clegg look like a bloke who knew what he was talking about.....the threat of Milliband having to ask Alex Salmond for support in running this country just fills me with a dread that makes Cameron seem like the only choice.....heaven forbid. The media seemingly want to encourage a coalition of any sort....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, March 27, 2015, 10:06:21
well summed up Hethab.

one point though, not seen a manifesto yet. and if there was one, would anyone a) read it, b) believe it ?

I'm convinced most votes have always been cast on habit, leader personality, or failing that who has the best hair.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, March 27, 2015, 10:14:14
well summed up Hethab.

one point though, not seen a manifesto yet. and if there was one, would anyone a) read it, b) believe it ?

I'm convinced most votes have always been cast on habit, leader personality, or failing that who has the best hair.

Well that's my planned Political career fucked then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 27, 2015, 10:16:16
Couldn`t bring myself to watch as I see absolutely no point in the TV debates - a few years ago it made Nick Clegg look like a bloke who knew what he was talking about.....the threat of Milliband having to ask Alex Salmond for support in running this country just fills me with a dread that makes Cameron seem like the only choice.....heaven forbid. The media seemingly want to encourage a coalition of any sort....

If Salmond was not intent on breaking the country up, he'd have a lot to recommend him as a leader.  You can't fault his commitment to his ideals (even if, like me, you don't agree with them.)  And he has more statesmanship/gravitas than the rest of them put together.

Have to say I have a sneaking (& grudging) admiration for the man.  Not hard at all to see how the SNP vote has taken off in Scotland.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 27, 2015, 10:16:37
I'd be more concerned about Ed Balls being in charge of the Treasury.

This makes me shudder.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 27, 2015, 10:22:12
The media seemingly want to encourage a coalition of any sort....

The coalition is happening anyway, regardless of what the media want.  Majority government is likely when you have 2 or 3 serious contenders.  But this time around, we have 5 party politics (Conservative, Labour, Lib Dem, UKIP, SNP).

Once the electorate gets used to the idea that coalition government is the new norm, I am hoping that one of the key arguments against Proportional Representation (fear of coalition government) will fade away.  I am certainly thinking that the Tories' traditional support for First Past the Post will wither when they see the SNP winning 90% of the seats in Scotland with 45% of the popular vote (which is what the polls are forecasting at present).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, March 27, 2015, 10:27:55
Thought Ed easily came across better and didn't dance around the issue of each question like Cameron did.
I think we have to look at the bigger picture and the parties their leaders represent though to make our decision when voting. The Tories are extremely unpleasant, just look at how that cunt Hague was yesterday with his devious plot. Labour have my vote already to get them bastards out. It's the only vote that can do that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 27, 2015, 10:29:01
well summed up Hethab.

one point though, not seen a manifesto yet. and if there was one, would anyone a) read it, b) believe it ?

I'm convinced most votes have always been cast on habit, leader personality, or failing that who has the best hair.

I was thinking this the other week, are the manifesto's normally this late - much of the problem with the coverage at the moment is that we have a media all geared up for an election but nothing of substance to talk about - hence the series of 'at home with the party leaders' interviews!

I watched last night, having not watched any of them in 2010, and I actually though Milliband came across better than Cameron, but that's not saying much! Cameron is very poor at disguising that he is avoiding answering a question and once you notice that he is doing it, you cannot help noticing that he is doing it all the time! I actually quite liked that they had obviously told Milliband to be a big aggro with Paxman as it at least made it interesting - but in both cases nothing of any substance was said!

The response on social media afterwards was interesting if only that many of the left wingers I follow (and the 'friends' I have on Facebook who live their life by posting Guardian links) don't seem to have a good word to say about Milliband, this lack of confidence in their leader jut doesn't seem to look like ending well!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 27, 2015, 10:34:17
Miliband (E) strikes me as another Iain Duncan Smith.  Useful senior level party politician with some interesting ideas, but not party leader material.  He was over-promoted, and even his own party now recognise this.

I would imagine that Labour have probably now learned their lesson and will be unlikely to allow the unions to choose their party leader again in future.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, March 27, 2015, 10:44:32
Thought Ed easily came across better and didn't dance around the issue of each question like Cameron did.
I think we have to look at the bigger picture and the parties their leaders represent though to make our decision when voting.
You're absolutely right. The problem is how many of the electorate will do that and how many of them will dumb down and vote based on little more than who looks better in Hello, or Heat magazine? Or who looks more natural eating a bacon sandwich? Or which of them likes real ale and a fag?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, March 27, 2015, 10:52:16
I can understand people saying Miliband came across better last night, but I'm at a complete loss as to how anyone could think his performance was that of a Prime Minister. He does come across as genuine and honest but also as weak and easy to push around - the SNP will have a field day with him if Labour need their support to form a government.

I don't particularly like Cameron and I won't be voting Tory but we will all be royally fucked if Labour get in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, March 27, 2015, 11:50:00
I can understand people saying Miliband came across better last night, but I'm at a complete loss as to how anyone could think his performance was that of a Prime Minister. He does come across as genuine and honest but also as weak and easy to push around - the SNP will have a field day with him if Labour need their support to form a government.

I don't particularly like Cameron and I won't be voting Tory but we will all be royally fucked if Labour get in.

They have just replayed the Miliband - Paxman interview, Paxman just really cannot be bothered anymore can he, his questions seemed to have as little substance as the answers!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Friday, March 27, 2015, 12:36:06
What I don't understand is if, as expected, the SNP win virtually all 57(?) Scottish seats, how come they voted against independence.

The sweaties just seem shit scared to go it alone but still turn their back on Westminster.

I would vote for any party that promised English independence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, March 27, 2015, 12:40:45
What I don't understand is if, as expected, the SNP win virtually all 57(?) Scottish seats, how come they voted against independence.

The more MPs they have the more influence they have at Westminster to influence their own affairs, whilst retaining the benefits of staying in the union


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 27, 2015, 12:54:01
What I don't understand is if, as expected, the SNP win virtually all 57(?) Scottish seats, how come they voted against independence.

The sweaties just seem shit scared to go it alone but still turn their back on Westminster.

I would vote for any party that promised English independence.

Two things.

Firstly, the First Past the Post (FPTP) voting system creates a distortion.  The SNP is on course - according to latest polls - to win approx 90% of the parliamentary seats in Scotland.  But they will do so with approx 45% of the popular vote.  And 45% was the proportion of the electorate that voted for independence.  No coincidence there.  So while it could well be an SNP landslide in Scotland, they will likely achieve it with a minority share of the vote.

FPTP distorts both results and political discussions.  You would think, from a lot of political commentary, that virtually all Scots are going to vote SNP in May.  Not true.  And you might also think that the Tory voter is all but extinct in Scotland.  Again, not true.  One in 7 voters in Scotland votes Tory; but the FPTP system conspires to give them just 1 MP (out of 59) up there.  Again, a distortion.

And secondly, there is deep unhappiness with Westminster politics across the UK.  You can see it in this thread.  In Scotland, voting SNP gives many up there a viable way of expressing that dissatisfaction.  There is not a similar viable option down here - other than UKIP, who appeal to a narrower base.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, March 27, 2015, 13:10:52
 The most interesting political development recently, has been the Supreme Court's decision to back the Guardian, and quash the Tory's efforts to keep hidden Charlie's letters to ministers, which may undermine his "neutrality"

 Will be interesting to see what these look like....as it potentially exposes the fault lines in our process of government, which look increasingly unfit for purpose in a post industrial, post colonial age.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Friday, March 27, 2015, 13:46:45
If nothing else the leaders' debates show that we should be electing Prime Ministers directly and formally separating out the government from MPs (legislative). Unless anyone lives in Doncaster, Witney or Sheffield (or indeed Thanet South) we don't have a say on who is PM.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: reeves4england on Friday, March 27, 2015, 13:53:14
If nothing else the leaders' debates show that we should be electing Prime Ministers directly and formally separating out the government from MPs (legislative). Unless anyone lives in Doncaster, Witney or Sheffield (or indeed Thanet South) we don't have a say on who is PM.

Do they show they show that we should be doing that? Or that half the country mindlessly thinks we are? The two are quite different.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Friday, March 27, 2015, 16:04:46
Do they show they show that we should be doing that? Or that half the country mindlessly thinks we are? The two are quite different.

That leaders' debates exist in itself is an indication...and via the polls we see that Labour, as a party, is more popular than the Tories but is being held back by the unpopularity of its leader.

Cameron according to polling is more popular than Miliband, but his party is not...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, March 27, 2015, 16:26:08
Cameron according to polling is more popular than Miliband, but his party is not...

...or maybe less unpopular?  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Friday, March 27, 2015, 16:26:51
...or maybe less unpopular?  ;)

Yes... :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Friday, March 27, 2015, 21:24:03
Still voting Green.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: manc_red on Friday, March 27, 2015, 21:26:53
Still voting Green.

 :nod:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Friday, March 27, 2015, 21:33:40
Knitting your own yogurt, eh.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, March 27, 2015, 21:34:29
So potentially we could be ruled from both Brussels and Edinburgh


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, March 27, 2015, 22:11:26
So potentially we could be ruled from both Brussels and Edinburgh
A bit like we were when Labour pulled the strings, de je vous


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 11:09:24
quote author=Ardiles

the First Past the Post (FPTP) voting system creates a distortion.  The SNP is on course - according to latest polls - to win approx 90% of the parliamentary seats in Scotland.  But they will do so with approx 45% of the popular vote.  And 45% was the proportion of the electorate that voted for independence.  No coincidence there.  So while it could well be an SNP landslide in Scotland, they will likely achieve it with a minority share of the vote.

FPTP distorts both results and political discussions.  You would think, from a lot of political commentary, that virtually all Scots are going to vote SNP in May.  Not true.  And you might also think that the Tory voter is all but extinct in Scotland.  Again, not true.  One in 7 voters in Scotland votes Tory; but the FPTP system conspires to give them just 1 MP (out of 59) up there.  Again, a distortion.

[/quote]

Some really interesting points on this thread.  I had no idea on what support the Scots Nat polling landslide was based, so thanks for that insight, Ardiles.

Westminster had its PR opportunity early in this term but a poor version was proposed by the government and rejected.  Tories and Labour have always opposed PR so they can hardly be put out about the distortion having enjoyed outright majorities on minority votes for years.  

Interestingly, the Euro elections which are based on PR produced these results

Party                                           %   MEPs

UK Independence Party                27.49    24
Labour                                        25.40    20
Conservative                                23.93   19
Green                                          7.87      3
Scottish National Party                  2.46      2
Liberal Democrat                          6.87      1
Sinn Fein                                      n/a*     1
Democratic Unionist Party              n/a*     1
Plaid Cymru                                  n/a     1
Ulster Unionist Party                      n/a*     1

(*No PR and more seats per vote than the rest of the uk!)





 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:07:39
Dunno about anyone else but I'm warming to Ed Milliband more and more as time goes by. The Tory press going after him with pathetic insults only endears him more. They're doing him more good than damage.

Chicken Cameron on the other hand getting biased coverage isn't painting himself in glory is he?


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:15:33
Ed Milliband comes across as a rabbit caught in the headlights every time I see him. he could be a genius, but that's not the way he's coming across. Cameron is far more polished even though he rarely actually says much.

they both seem like public school, not got a clue about the average man in the street posh pricks through.

but more so, though I probably understand less than 1% of the actual issue, labours financial noises make me worried that they'll fuck the economy even more than last time.

for the first time in my life I'm more likely to vote Tory than labour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: OrangeTransits on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:21:42
Why, waste of time..........

I live in Spelthorne and the MP is Kwasi Kwarteng who was Camerons fag at Eton who was Boris Johnsons fag at Eton also.

So basically Kwarteng has consumed Camerons Jizz on a Digestive and Cameron has consumed Boris's Jizz. Also on a Digestive.

Milliband doesn't seem capable of consuming anything without getting it all down his shirt.
I suspect he could give my windscreen a good clean though.

Milliband got turned down from Eton on the basis of he wouldn't pass the FAG initiation ceremony known as soggy biscuit.

Alex Salmond is treasonous Cunt of the highest order.

Farage will take all the tax off a pint of Beer.

From where I'm at exactly at this point in time I know who gets my vote. If I can even bother ............

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:35:04
labours financial noises make me worried that they'll fuck the economy even more than last time.

That's pretty much where I am, if Balls gets his hands on the economy we could go backwards again. More cuts are needed and the Tories relish that stuff.

Live in a fairly safe Tory seat but UKIP are only party who might have a slight sniff of it so a Tory vote here is a no brainer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:52:04
How anyone could vote Tory is beyond me unless you are loaded.  Benefit the wealthy. Protect paedophiles. Hammer the vulnerable. The list of their despicable acts are endless. Truely abhorrent people.

If cuts have to be made then why are they damaging everything in the process? These are things that inevitably will have to be repaired. Schools, the nhs and frontline services are being wrecked by them. They are pro hunting with hounds too which disgusts me. I hate them!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 17:55:49
the economy is so screwed the cuts are needed regardless of the consequences. we can't afford many basics, let alone the overblown public sector labour created last time.

I'm not saying I'll vote Tory, just that I have them ahead of labour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 18:08:04
How anyone could vote Tory is beyond me unless you are loaded.  Benefit the wealthy. Protect paedophiles. Hammer the vulnerable. The list of their despicable acts are endless. Truely abhorrent people.

If cuts have to be made then why are they damaging everything in the process? These are things that inevitably will have to be repaired. Schools, the nhs and frontline services are being wrecked by them. They are pro hunting with hounds too which disgusts me. I hate them!

This really annoys me.  I'm no Tory, but I do completely understand why a large proportion of the electorate votes for them.  In terms of economic competence, they wipe the floor with Labour.

I also dislike the cabal from elite public schools that runs the party, but to suggest that only the wealthy should vote for them is grossly simplistic and ignores a myriad of reasons why they are favoured by millions of voters.  And if you can show me stats that proves that Conservatives are more predisposed to paedophilia than anyone else, I'd love to see them.

No one likes cuts to public services.  But sadly, after the monumental fuck up of Balls/Brown 'no more boom & bust' years of the early 2000s, they are regrettably necessary.  Unless, of course, we are comfortable with saddling our grandchildren with crippling debts to pay for an uncosted, early 21st century spending splurge.  I know I'm not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 18:14:05
How anyone could vote Tory is beyond me unless you are loaded.  Benefit the wealthy. Protect paedophiles. Hammer the vulnerable. The list of their despicable acts are endless. Truely abhorrent people.

If cuts have to be made then why are they damaging everything in the process? These are things that inevitably will have to be repaired. Schools, the nhs and frontline services are being wrecked by them. They are pro hunting with hounds too which disgusts me. I hate them!

Er...Rotherham?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 18:15:07
  I'm no Tory,

To be fair you do a very good impression of one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 18:21:28
To be fair you do a very good impression of one.

Economically, I am.  I recognise that.  Socially, I'm not.

I've voted for them once, in 1992.  But that was a sensible thing to do in 1992.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 18:22:26
Er...Rotherham?

You know what party ran Rotherham council and therefore social services don't you?

Not that any party actually protects paedophiles mind you, deary me


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 18:24:51
Dunno about anyone else but I'm warming to Ed Milliband more and more as time goes by.


I wouldn't trust Miliband to tie up his own shoelaces let alone run the country


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 18:26:55
You know what party ran Rotherham council and therefore social services don't you?

Not that any party actually protects paedophiles mind you, deary me

That was kind of my point. Rotherham (and other examples) was/is a cover-up by the establishment; Police, Social Services and the Council.

Child abuse is a serious crime, and one that is politically neutral, to use it as a way of scoring political points as arriba did is pretty low and diminishes the scale of the problem.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 18:34:07
This really annoys me.  I'm no Tory, but I do completely understand why a large proportion of the electorate votes for them.  In terms of economic competence, they wipe the floor with Labour.

I also dislike the cabal from elite public schools that runs the party, but to suggest that only the wealthy should vote for them is grossly simplistic and ignores a myriad of reasons why they are favoured by millions of voters.  And if you can show me stats that proves that Conservatives are more predisposed to paedophilia than anyone else, I'd love to see them.

No one likes cuts to public services.  But sadly, after the monumental fuck up of Balls/Brown 'no more boom & bust' years of the early 2000s, they are regrettably necessary.  Unless, of course, we are comfortable with saddling our grandchildren with crippling debts to pay for an uncosted, early 21st century spending splurge.  I know I'm not.
I get annoyed that anyone could vote Tory. Hey ho. Tell me how we'd have been better off had the Tories been in government pre financial meltdown? I'd think that even if things were better financially(which I doubt) the public services improved under Labour wouldn't be there to ruin now. Something else would be destroyed instead.

Er...Rotherham?
what's your point? Were Labour ministers ignoring mp's over Rotherham?
Thatcher and Leon Britain on the other hand eh?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 18:37:14
Economically, I am.  I recognise that.  Socially, I'm not.

I've voted for them once, in 1992.  But that was a sensible thing to do in 1992.

Of course it was.... 5 years of the most corrupt, sleaze riddled administration, since the 1832 Reform Act.  Privatised the railways as a final scorched earth policy as they retreated. Well done.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 18:53:24
That was kind of my point. Rotherham (and other examples) was/is a cover-up by the establishment; Police, Social Services and the Council.

Child abuse is a serious crime, and one that is politically neutral, to use it as a way of scoring political points as arriba did is pretty low and diminishes the scale of the problem.

Bollocks. Has nothing to do with point scoring. It's just another example of something I dislike them for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 18:56:45
I get annoyed that anyone could vote Tory. Hey ho. Tell me how we'd have been better off had the Tories been in government pre financial meltdown? I'd think that even if things were better financially(which I doubt) the public services improved under Labour wouldn't be there to ruin now. Something else would be destroyed instead.
I agree on pretty much all of that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 18:58:04

How anyone could vote Tory is beyond me unless you are loaded... Protect paedophiles.

I fully appreciate you don't like the Tories, and there are many decent reasons not to like them, but that was political point scoring using child abuse as a reason - when the issue covers members of all political parties. Please don't try to wriggle out of it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 19:07:27
I fully appreciate you don't like the Tories, and there are many decent reasons not to like them, but that was political point scoring using child abuse as a reason - when the issue covers members of all political parties. Please don't try to wriggle out of it.
 
er, I'm not trying to wriggle out of anything. I've explained why I posted that comment. If you want to dismiss my reasons then fine but I listed a few examples. The peado cover up was one of a few.

People list historical happenings for current political debate, why is this issue, which happened on Thatcher's watch not a relevant reason for me not to have included it in the list of dislikes? That's all I did whether you accept that or not.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: normy on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 19:09:54
I hated Blair, mainly for the Iraq War, but it seems strange that he is Cameron's hero and they are great social chums, if what I have read is correct. Does this suggest anything?  I'm confused.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 19:44:23
Of course it was.... 5 years of the most corrupt, sleaze riddled administration, since the 1832 Reform Act.  Privatised the railways as a final scorched earth policy as they retreated. Well done.

Fair enough.  And I am sure that was at least partly why they did not get my vote in 1997.

I was referring more to the quality of the alternative on offer in 1992.  ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROKXlvYMKQc


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 20:29:28
Fair enough.  And I am sure that was at least partly why they did not get my vote in 1997.

I was referring more to the quality of the alternative on offer in 1992.  ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROKXlvYMKQc

You weren't the only one taken in by Rupert Murdoch, after all it was The Sun Wot Won It.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 21:06:47
Why bring Murdoch in to this?  The ginger twat in the video needed no help from anyone to end his domestic political career.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 21:22:42
Never voted Tory before but will do in May. Hoping that some how there's a swing as a labour govt would be a disaster for the economy.  Plus not overly excited at the thought of a labour/Snp coalition. The efforts of bitter together may well come back and bite us on the backside.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 21:50:34
It's going to be a coalition again. Looking at Tory policy and how the disadvantaged are penalised, while the privileged are protected, fills me with unease. I suppose it depends on whether you want a society where greed and selfishness are priorities and where welfare and fairness aren't. Don't get me wrong, I'm not enamoured by any of the options, but the Conservatives would never get my vote.

In response to those who see the Tories as somehow doing a good job, re austerity, it's interesting to see where all the cuts are coming from and what sectors of society aren't being penalised.

All in it together? Yeah, right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 21:53:36
Labour are no better than Tories. Professional politicians who have fuck all idea of the real world bar a few back benchers. Labour need to get rid of the north London intelligensia. They need to get a blunt northerner, simon danczuk possibly and get some real people on the front bench. They need to get back in touch with the working man. They are as far removed as Cameron and Gideon and the other posh boys


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Iffy's Onion Bhaji on Saturday, March 28, 2015, 23:43:53
There really are no credible options this election. All of them are hopeless.

I don't like Cameron and can't stand Millaband. To be honest I'm not overly political but always make the effort to vote but this time I'm tempted not to bother at all and if I do it will probably be a spolit ballot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 00:23:21
Tell me how we'd have been better off had the Tories been in government pre financial meltdown? I'd think that even if things were better financially(which I doubt) the public services improved under Labour wouldn't be there to ruin now.

Labour spent money we didn't have, so when the crash came we were harder hit than we would have been under a Tory government (as our debts wouldn't have been as high). We're still paying now for the Labour spending and will be for a long time to come. GWH being a good example, Labour get the credit for building it, but the current Tory government are the ones still having to find the money to continue making the payments on it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 00:28:01
Labour spent money we didn't have, so when the crash came we were harder hit than we would have been under a Tory government (as our debts wouldn't have been as high). We're still paying now for the Labour spending and will be for a long time to come. GWH being a good example, Labour get the credit for building it, but the current Tory government are the ones still having to find the money to continue making the payments on it.
So what would you suggest, we don't build hospitals? The financial crisis wasn't a result of over spending in the public sector was it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: manc_red on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 01:25:07
Labour spent money we didn't have, so when the crash came we were harder hit than we would have been under a Tory government (as our debts wouldn't have been as high). We're still paying now for the Labour spending and will be for a long time to come. GWH being a good example, Labour get the credit for building it, but the current Tory government are the ones still having to find the money to continue making the payments on it.
No, it was PFI.

Anyway, would you rather be treated at PHM?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 02:31:35
So what would you suggest, we don't build hospitals? The financial crisis wasn't a result of over spending in the public sector was it?

You build new where you absolutely need to and re invest where you have existing, like PMH and when you can afford them. PFI were in financial terms to the tax payer like fucking timeshare scams, representing a scandalous waste of money that as said our kids will be paying for. Actually it is, that and piss poor financial regulation. Both responsibilities of the government of the day, who were?

In my adult life time, on the two occasions where the conservatives have come to power, they have had to rebuild an economy wrecked by labour. The last labour government inherited the best set of donestic economic figures of any incoming government in history. So where did it all go wrong? See my first paragraph. The coalition government inherited the worst figures an incoming government has in history.

You cannot turn a super tanker encconomy round like a speed boat. Those of you reading this who have gotten into financial difficulty think how long it took you to get out of the shit and then think of the sacrifices you made along the way to achieve it. You just cannot declare yourself bankrupt as a nation like a private individual BTW if you managed to pull that one off.

A countries finances are no different, the figures are obviously bigger but the rules and principles remain the same.

If labour had won the last general election I shudder to think of what things would be like now. They too would have had to make some very hard choices. The difference being is they would have borrowed more to try and sort them out and taxed more into the bargain.......

Would you jeopardise your family's security and future by borrowing more when you're already up to your neck?

It is remarkably two faced of labour to keep bashing the bankers. They happily cosied up to them when Brown was chancellor and reaping in the tax reciepts at the same time. I wince at the naivety of Brown & Balls that they not only thought they had abolished boom & bust but that it would carry on ad infinitem, astonishing.

You don't need a degree in economics to realise that an economic cycle has peaks and troughs.

I don't particularly like Cameron's style and substance on the other hand Milliband is a puppet for the unions and I don't believe he has the where with all to cut it as PM. David Milliband on the other hand, different class.

For me it comes down to hard cash, not mine personally but that of our great country. If we as a nation prosper so do we today and our kids tomorrow, everything else is a side show because no matter who you vote for the government always gets in.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 15:10:34
Labour spent money we didn't have, so when the crash came we were harder hit than we would have been under a Tory government (as our debts wouldn't have been as high). We're still paying now for the Labour spending and will be for a long time to come. GWH being a good example, Labour get the credit for building it, but the current Tory government are the ones still having to find the money to continue making the payments on it.
How do you know that the Tories wouldn't have spent as much? I don't remember their respective leaders being critical of the then Labour government. Maybe I'm wrong?
 I do remember them agreeing with a lot of the decisions then taken and everyone was riding along with it nicely. As with all past political arguments and mistakes, hindsight is a useful thing.
I'm sure that the main reasons Labour were ousted(the iraq war and financial crash) would have happend anyway. A lot of the good they did is forgotten.

Labour should take the credit for the new hospitals and other improvements made. They were needed. The old pmh was in a right state(my Mrs worked there) and was not fit for purpose.

What we are seeing now with the nhs is people being treated in car parks and dying on trolleys in corridors. It is in rapid decline if the comments from the staff who work in it are to be believed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 17:02:11
How do you know that the Tories wouldn't have spent as much? I don't remember their respective leaders being critical of the then Labour government. Maybe I'm wrong?
 I do remember them agreeing with a lot of the decisions then taken and everyone was riding along with it nicely. As with all past political arguments and mistakes, hindsight is a useful thing.
I'm sure that the main reasons Labour were ousted(the iraq war and financial crash) would have happend anyway. A lot of the good they did is forgotten.

Labour should take the credit for the new hospitals and other improvements made. They were needed. The old pmh was in a right state(my Mrs worked there) and was not fit for purpose.

What we are seeing now with the nhs is people being treated in car parks and dying on trolleys in corridors. It is in rapid decline if the comments from the staff who work in it are to be believed.

We don't but they didn't. They were not in power were they?
I think you are. I seem to remember a lot of opposition to the PFI initiatives, nationally and locally. I agree with you the Iraq war was a contributing factor. Again Arriba, with the money rolling into the exchequer, money should have been put away to mend the roof when the sun was shining in financial terms not flittering it away (I go back to mcboom & bust again and his favourite buzz word prudence), prudence my arse. I can't argue WRT the state of the old PMH. However, the new hospital as new as it is appears to not be fit for purpose either....

Again I can't disagree about the treatment of patients as like those who do not work in the NHS I can only go by what I see in the media and personal experience. But let me remind you that the last government put on an extra 800k-1m non jobs onto the P&L account of GB PLC, who has to pay for them? It has taken the coalition five years to get some financial stability into the economy and forecasts show another five years to reach the target of being in the black. That's ten years to "undo" what 12 years of labour did.

As I said I'm no fan of Cameron but as it stands the punitive tax raising that labour are proposing is like pissing in the wind and the really, really wealthy that labour despise, though most of them seem to have done ok themselves will find ways of avoiding the extra levies placed upon them. The more you tax the more the black economy grows, something labour seem to no recognise. I wonder how may "cash" receipts Balls really asks for?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 18:25:19
We don't but they didn't. They were not in power were they?
I think you are. I seem to remember a lot of opposition to the PFI initiatives, nationally and locally. I agree with you the Iraq war was a contributing factor. Again Arriba, with the money rolling into the exchequer, money should have been put away to mend the roof when the sun was shining in financial terms not flittering it away (I go back to mcboom & bust again and his favourite buzz word prudence), prudence my arse. I can't argue WRT the state of the old PMH. However, the new hospital as new as it is appears to not be fit for purpose either....

Again I can't disagree about the treatment of patients as like those who do not work in the NHS I can only go by what I see in the media and personal experience. But let me remind you that the last government put on an extra 800k-1m non jobs onto the P&L account of GB PLC, who has to pay for them? It has taken the coalition five years to get some financial stability into the economy and forecasts show another five years to reach the target of being in the black. That's ten years to "undo" what 12 years of labour did.

As I said I'm no fan of Cameron but as it stands the punitive tax raising that labour are proposing is like pissing in the wind and the really, really wealthy that labour despise, though most of them seem to have done ok themselves will find ways of avoiding the extra levies placed upon them. The more you tax the more the black economy grows, something labour seem to no recognise. I wonder how may "cash" receipts Balls really asks for?
It's Mostly all with hindsight though isn't it? I'll take your word for the at the time opposition of pfi(I cannot remember) but I do remember the Tories endorsing much of what Labour were doing during much of their term. Remember the Tories were a joke for quite a while and totally unelectable during that time.
Undoubtedly Labour made mistakes but even with those mistakes I'd still take their years in government over any other party.

I voted lib dem last time as I was disillusioned with Labour. Again with hindsight that was a big error on my part. It won't happen again. We learn by our mistakes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 18:26:13
So what about the punitive measures the Tories inflict on the most vulnerable in society, in the name of austerity, while their old school buddies in the City and large corporations are hardly affected? If revenue needed to be increased  (and it obviously was) fine, but there has to be a more equitable way of doing it than the Conservatives method of robbing the poor to pay the rich.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 21:15:05
So what about the punitive measures the Tories inflict on the most vulnerable in society, in the name of austerity, while their old school buddies in the City and large corporations are hardly affected? If revenue needed to be increased  (and it obviously was) fine, but there has to be a more equitable way of doing it than the Conservatives method of robbing the poor to pay the rich.

I assume your first sentence was a retorical question and not aimed at me? However, I'll humour you with a reply. I don't know about the "punitive" measures, I'm sure in your mind you have examples so could you be more specific? You mean the movers and shakers in the city and big business that labour cosied upto while the going was good and who they now vilify as it suits their bash the posh boys and their money? Just have a look at the private schools attended by labour MPs and their respective career paths and directorships, you may be surprised, hey you could even class them as pseudo Tories if you did not know they were labour MPs. I think robbing the poor to pay the rich is a best a bit dramatic, as if you are yourself working and living in relative comfort you would have benefitted from the raise in the personal tax allowance for starters. You could always give it back as could anyone.

I'm not condoning or condemning either of the two main parties, just trying to add some balance. The electorate tends to have short memories.

Personally I think overseas aid is to much and should be stopped for some and realigned for other countries but I don't make those decisions the government do. I also think we'd be better off outside the EU, just think what we could spend £53m PER DAY on?, every day. Maybe those vulnerable members of society could be given more? We could also spend more on our armed forces, the NHS, the police.

However you look at it the tax take of any government in any fiscal year is only so big, how you divvy up the cake is down to the ideological view of the incumbents at the time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 21:33:36
It's pointless to get into a debate on politics. For every argument there is a counter argument, for every example, a counter example.
I am not a Labour sympathiser (At least not since Blair turned them into a ideologically  bankrupt party) I just think that The Consevatives version of society is not as fair, just or equitable as it should, or could be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: stfc1975 on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 21:42:52
It's pointless to get into a debate on politics. For every argument there is a counter argument, for every example, a counter example.
I am not a Labour sympathiser (At least not since Blair turned them into a ideologically  bankrupt party) I just think that The Consevatives version of society is not as fair, just or equitable as it should, or could be.

Agree with this totally ...then I looked at who started the thread   :eek:.

My opinion still hasn't changed  , bunch of cunts the lot of them just filling their own pockets.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 22:41:29
Agree with this totally ...then I looked at who started the thread   :eek:.

My opinion still hasn't changed  , bunch of cunts the lot of them just filling their own pockets.

It is pointless, but I'm still interested in how other people think. For what it's worth, I agree with you on the bunch of cunts stance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 22:47:51
Who you going to vote for then herthab?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 22:55:17
Who you going to vote for then herthab?

To be honest I don't know yet, it's easier to find reasons not to vote for any of them but that's a cop out. I voted Lib Dem last time, which didn't work out the way I thought it would!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 23:05:01
Maybe it's because I don't really align with a party but I find it odd that so many people are convinced that one party can do no wrong and that all the others want to ruin the country and sell the remains to the Unions/private Companies/the EU/Darth Vader (delete as applicable). Every party has their better points and their worse, and I don't believe they're all pigs in the trough with no interest in society, there are people on all sides of all parties that I am sure are doing what they think is right.

All this adversarial bollocks over relatively minor policy differences feels like a bit of a dumb sideshow to me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, March 29, 2015, 23:08:22
To be honest I don't know yet, it's easier to find reasons not to vote for any of them but that's a cop out. I voted Lib Dem last time, which didn't work out the way I thought it would!
I don't think the vast majority thought their vote for the lib dems would have seen the results we've had with it. They're now a joke party and will get absolutely trounced. Worryingly ukip will get their share I fear which is even worse


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Monday, March 30, 2015, 00:18:18
It's pointless to get into a debate on politics. For every argument there is a counter argument, for every example, a counter example.
I am not a Labour sympathiser (At least not since Blair turned them into a ideologically  bankrupt party) I just think that The Consevatives version of society is not as fair, just or equitable as it should, or could be.

Interestingly I nearly agree with your last sentence. Life is not and never has been fair. That said it does not hurt to try to make it so. Just need to be careful that the hand that feeds the needy has the means to supply the demand and the more you give the more is wanted. What started out as a safety net has turned into a nice comfy feathered bed with entitlements.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Monday, March 30, 2015, 18:08:03
That Nicola Sturgeon is a right old hound.

And is it a pre-requisite for SNP MPs to be named after fish?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Down on Monday, March 30, 2015, 18:10:48
Aren't there Swindon Borough Council seats up for grabs on 7th May too? Which candidates will give STFC the best consideration if elected? Can we get a few candidates on here to give their STFC manifesto? Got to be votes in it for them from the local TEFers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 30, 2015, 20:31:13
Aren't there Swindon Borough Council seats up for grabs on 7th May too? Which candidates will give STFC the best consideration if elected? Can we get a few candidates on here to give their STFC manifesto? Got to be votes in it for them from the local TEFers.
It would be utterly pointless. They'd all just give the usual platitudes about how important the club is, pride of the town etc etc. If it's that big a decider for you, you'd be better off looking at their voting records. But tbh, while there are some individual councillors who do genuinely care what happens to the club, overall the club will benefit from the town overall getting back on it's feet from the stagnation of the past 6-7 years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, April 2, 2015, 21:56:54
Well that debate was crap, wasn't it.

The only moment of any interest was Farage deciding to have a go at foreign people with AIDS. Those evil bastards.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, April 2, 2015, 22:09:22
Load of wank, resulted to trolling the lib dems and labour on Twitter to keep me awake.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, April 2, 2015, 22:14:41
Twitter was a definite winner tonight, know it's easier to take the piss from afar than do something positive but I only really carried on watching for the reaction on there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Thursday, April 2, 2015, 22:18:59
Interestingly I nearly agree with your last sentence. Life is not and never has been fair. That said it does not hurt to try to make it so. Just need to be careful that the hand that feeds the needy has the means to supply the demand and the more you give the more is wanted. What started out as a safety net has turned into a nice comfy feathered bed with entitlements.

All you can ask for is a chance the rest is down to you. I was lucky to be given that chance.
People need to understand one rule in life, sad but true. You are on your own.
Understand this and you are more prepared for the shit that is going to come your way.
Life is one big game with no rules. However you are tested on your values and morals.
The politicians do nothing and represent themselves.
Kind of glad I am in the latter part of my career. Didn't do fantastic at school or go to University.
Done it back to front and studied whilst working.
Milliband is an absolute twat of the highest order and how anyone could vote for him. Cameron no understanding of how people live and so far away from the average man in the street.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Thursday, April 2, 2015, 22:37:12
I wouldn't trust Miliband to tie up his own shoelaces let alone run the country

Ha - Cameron told me he couldn't even control his own um 'free spirited' Tory Town Council...and to be fair it's one thing he's been right on.

You have seen that he never wears shoes with laces right?


Title: Re:
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 3, 2015, 08:14:57
So what did I learn....

Nothing about the usual suspects, I find Nichola Sturgeon incredibly annoying and I am still a sucker for a Welsh accent.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Friday, April 3, 2015, 08:51:42
All you can ask for is a chance the rest is down to you. I was lucky to be given that chance.
People need to understand one rule in life, sad but true. You are on your own.
Understand this and you are more prepared for the shit that is going to come your way.
Life is one big game with no rules. However you are tested on your values and morals.
The politicians do nothing and represent themselves.
Kind of glad I am in the latter part of my career. Didn't do fantastic at school or go to University.
Done it back to front and studied whilst working.
Milliband is an absolute twat of the highest order and how anyone could vote for him. Cameron no understanding of how people live and so far away from the average man in the street.




This for me.

Anybody who thinks voting a particular way will change things is deluded.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Friday, April 3, 2015, 09:08:37
This for me.

Anybody who thinks voting a particular way will change things is deluded.

Do you know what Flash, I would love it if the ballot paper had s tick box at the bottom that said "none of them."
This way at least it shows people are bothered to vote but can show their sheer resentment for them all.
Sadly this time I would vote this.
Would be great to see a landslide victory.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 11:16:52
Do you know what Flash, I would love it if the ballot paper had s tick box at the bottom that said "none of them."
This way at least it shows people are bothered to vote but can show their sheer resentment for them all.
Sadly this time I would vote this.
Would be great to see a landslide victory.

Out of interest what would you like to replace the current democratic system with?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, April 3, 2015, 11:21:20
Do you know what Flash, I would love it if the ballot paper had s tick box at the bottom that said "none of them."
This way at least it shows people are bothered to vote but can show their sheer resentment for them all.
Sadly this time I would vote this.
Would be great to see a landslide victory.

The option already exists. It's called "spoiling your ballot" and has traditionally been used for this purpose. Doesn't tend to get talked about much though, unless you and Russell can mobilise the millions to your cause.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Down on Friday, April 3, 2015, 11:39:28
There are certain names you are not allowed to used on ballet forms. 'None of the above' being one. I see that the Beer, Baccy and Crumpet Party had to change their name to Beer, Baccy and Crumpets to be accepted so as not to offend the feminists.

Is the CISTA Party fielding local candidates? Cannabis Is Safer Than Alcohol.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, April 3, 2015, 12:12:32
I'm going this route I think

http://www.votenone.org.uk/none_of_the_above.html

Tories are probably the most credible big party, but I can't bring myself to vote for the self serving toff scum


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 12:17:53
I'm going this route I think

http://www.votenone.org.uk/none_of_the_above.html

Tories are probably the most credible big party, but I can't bring myself to vote for the self serving toff scum

So like The DoB I'll ask you what you would like to see in place of our democratic process?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 3, 2015, 12:23:23
So like The DoB I'll ask you what you would like to see in place of our democratic process?
Being disillusioned with the current crop of self-serving arseholes doesn't mean people want rid of democracy. Most folks I talk to would like to see more democracy in the process, rather than the current five-year circular stitch-up between different shades of the elite.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Friday, April 3, 2015, 12:24:51
So like The DoB I'll ask you what you would like to see in place of our democratic process?

The most interesting thing for me about Homage To Catalonia was how the anarchist regiments all obeyed order, not because they had to, but because they realised it was necessary.

I can't even vote in this election, however, in the past it always irked me that I couldn't vote for a party of choice if they weren't standing in my constituency. Is that okay for a start?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 12:27:01
Being disillusioned with the current crop of self-serving arseholes doesn't mean people want rid of democracy. Most folks I talk to would like to see more democracy in the process, rather than the current five-year circular stitch-up between different shades of the elite.

With respect, I'm asking Duke and Batch....I'd like to hear what they think first before assuming your analysis reflects their ideas.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, April 3, 2015, 12:40:58
So like The DoB I'll ask you what you would like to see in place of our democratic process?

In my case its not a vote against the democratic process, its a protest against there being no real party that represents what I want to see.

I used to live in a very very safe Tory seat, so my vote was somewhat irrelevant then, so I used to think at least in PR my vote would count. Now I'm not so sure that's really relevant.

All I see are a load of career politicians, spouting the normal "lets be clear", "lessons have been learned" bland bollocks that doesn't seem to distinguish one from the other. The two main contenders, the Tories and Labour are the worst culprits.

Labour make some good noises, talk of helping families, talk of ending zero hours contracts (though Ed Balls has used the to employ people so..). But I seriously think they will fuck up the countries economy again. Plus Milliband doesn't seem up to it.

The Tories seem to make financial sense. But we all know how they have to pay for the cuts, and which section of society will be least hit by this financial necessity.

In any case what's the point. I voted Lib Dem last time around because of some key manifesto pledges. And look what happened to one of those. My kids will cost at least 54K in today's money to put through uni, and that's just fees. In any case Labour already fucked up further education before them with their "uni for all" saying this is a good thing, but leaving the government unable to properly assist funding it and providing dubious benefit to the countries future workforce.

So is voting for the least bad candidate a proper way to vote. Or should I be looking at who is best for Swindon - erm, no, the economy is far more important than that.

My real choices are don't vote or protest vote.

I'm sure someone will say, why not change things if you don't like them. Well, I can't quit my job, have no income and embark on a political crusade. We'd all starve and be homeless.

So I'm registering a protest vote. If 10 million people did the same, something will change. They won't, nothing will change, but I'd rather do that than vote for someone who doesn't represent me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 12:48:48
^^ I see. So you like democracy, but don't want to vote for anyone unless they agree with everything you think.... :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 12:54:25
Being disillusioned with the current crop of self-serving arseholes doesn't mean people want rid of democracy. Most folks I talk to would like to see more democracy in the process, rather than the current five-year circular stitch-up between different shades of the elite.

OK, Batch has replied. OK so how do you propose to get more democracy into the system... ?


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, April 3, 2015, 12:58:06
Quote
^^ I see. So you like democracy, but don't want to vote for anyone unless they agree with everything you think.... :hmmm:
no reg that's not exactly what it is. I disagree strongly with some of their policies. I'm not voting for them under those circumstances.

I'm not stupid enough to think there will be a 'batch party' that provides everything I think it should. in fact I wouldn't vote for that ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, April 3, 2015, 13:04:12
OK, Batch has replied. OK so how do you propose to get more democracy into the system... ?

An electoral system which actually makes most people's vote worth casting would be a start.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, April 3, 2015, 13:05:20
An electoral system which actually makes most people's vote worth casting would be a start.

Well you lot had the chance to vote for one of those and missed your opportunity. Typical British conservatism.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: OrangeTransits on Friday, April 3, 2015, 13:11:27
^^ I see. So you like democracy, but don't want to vote for anyone unless they agree with everything you think.... :hmmm:

If you think what we have is democracy, you are deluded. A true democracy would have no party whips directing MP's.

MP's would listen to there constituents and vote for what they wanted. An honourable thing to do in my book as it was those said constituents that elected them into the House in the First place.

People are fooled into believing we live in a democracy, when in fact all we have is a bit of paper to scribble on every 4 years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, April 3, 2015, 13:20:00
I think we can define a process that gives you what you want though Batch.  Get rid of political parties, which have to be self interested or of someone else's self interest to survive.  Instead we already have Civil service, just employ some administrators to carry out the countries wishes.  Then potential individual policies can be voted on in an X-Factor style weekly vote on TV, replacing said programme on ITV.  You could probably get through 10 or so policies a week with a results show on Sunday's.  It'd be a right mash-up of right left and everything inbetween.

As it is, voting any which way based on the economic policies is pretty much flawed because Govts lost control of economic influence years ago with global business now all but dictating that.

I shan't be voting because currently no single party offers anything substantially different, and those that do are generally to a further extreme away from own views - UKIP for example who presume I give a shit about immigration.  Personally I'd vote for a party with a selection of right and left wing policies, hence my daft suggestion above.

I would vote for:

Very limited immigration control - I'm not very nationalistic and would love the freedom to choose where to live (if any area becomes shit people would soon move back out).
Free health and social care run by a central body with not interest in profits within the system
High tax on higher earners to fund the health, social and welfare policies needed, but a winding down of the need of charities to make me feel guilty about everything (this would be me voting for a financial impact on myself).
A welfare state that is flexible enough to change but protects a set% of the population ensuring every family has a base minimum regardless of circumstances, but a working family could earn more.  Part of this right now would be to extend retirement age due to the change in population demographics (far less children vs. pensioners).  Maybe a part time pension for a number of years for example.  To fit alongside my immigration shackles being removed this base amount is sufficient to give a an agreed minimum living standard and nothing more, so would do little to entice people.  I'd also probably break this into regions of the country, but haven't thought that through.
A single education system that all must attend, with private education as a supplemental offer once the base one has been completed.
Removal of nuclear deterrents (what a stupid term) - how do all the non nuclear countries possibly survive?
Defined sentences for criminals - behaviour in prison should be expected to be good, so no need for early release.  Sitting alongside this, some offences to be completely removed, certainly around drugs - it's already an offence to steal stuff, so if someone wishes to harm themselves that bit is up to them.

So, some of it is completely nuts, and hence I find nobody worth voting for.  If Labour or Conservatives or Lib Dems get in, it makes little overall difference to me.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, April 3, 2015, 13:22:25
Well you lot had the chance to vote for one of those and missed your opportunity. Typical British conservatism.

I voted for it, thank you. But AV really isn't much better, progress perhaps, but the moment it turned into a referendum on what people thought of Clegg it was sunk.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Friday, April 3, 2015, 13:33:30
Out of interest what would you like to replace the current democratic system with?

Nothing wrong with the Democratic system, the fabric with what this Country stands for.
Will start with fraudulent expenses claims for one.
These are the pillars of society that people put their trust in.
Absolute scum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Friday, April 3, 2015, 13:36:06
The option already exists. It's called "spoiling your ballot" and has traditionally been used for this purpose. Doesn't tend to get talked about much though, unless you and Russell can mobilise the millions to your cause.

Disagree. Having the "none of them" actually gets people to vote, a protest vote to tell the politicians of the overall dissatisfaction and lack of trust the public actually have.
Would have a negative impact though on the UKIP protect vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Friday, April 3, 2015, 13:38:54
Being disillusioned with the current crop of self-serving arseholes doesn't mean people want rid of democracy. Most folks I talk to would like to see more democracy in the process, rather than the current five-year circular stitch-up between different shades of the elite.

Spot on. vote PD :)
At least in your tenure you were influential in defeating another low life piece of shit :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 16:20:47
This thread is hilarious.

There's a bottom line in play. It's called 'the bottom line'. It's a financial term for those that can't see the wood for the tree's.

The sooner the UK can get it's trade deficit down and start reducing the National Debt, the sooner the likes of Red Ed et al can start getting their investment in public services back.

The Labour party fucked it up. They spent, not only every penny they took, they borrowed in a delusional belief they had 'abolished boom and bust' (how fucking stupid are these cunts?) and they mortgaged future generations livelihoods in PFI agreements.

Now, not only do they not admit where they went wrong mis-managing the economy, they want to borrow more to 'invest in Britain'.

Why, when the British economy was was running a surplus as opposed to deficit, just a decade ago, did they choose to not 'invest in Britain' but to expand the welfare state to unsustainable levels? Why?

What on earth makes these fucking idiots believe that borrowing money to invest money has one iota of sense to it?  Anyone who has ever invested money on a serious level will tell you that it's nothing more than a 50%50 bet.

Is that how our economy should be run, on the toss of a coin?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, April 3, 2015, 17:05:21
This thread is hilarious.

There's a bottom line in play. It's called 'the bottom line'. It's a financial term for those that can't see the wood for the tree's.

The sooner the UK can get it's trade deficit down and start reducing the National Debt, the sooner the likes of Red Ed et al can start getting their investment in public services back.

The Labour party fucked it up. They spent, not only every penny they took, they borrowed in a delusional belief they had 'abolished boom and bust' (how fucking stupid are these cunts?) and they mortgaged future generations livelihoods in PFI agreements.

Now, not only do they not admit where they went wrong mis-managing the economy, they want to borrow more to 'invest in Britain'.

Why, when the British economy was was running a surplus as opposed to deficit, just a decade ago, did they choose to not 'invest in Britain' but to expand the welfare state to unsustainable levels? Why? What on earth makes these fucking idiots believe that borrowing money to invest money has one iota of sense to it?  Anyone who has ever invested money on a serious level will tell you that it's nothing more than a 50%50 bet. Is that how our economy should be run, on the toss of a coin?
I have been trying to get that message across myself! well put.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Friday, April 3, 2015, 17:33:20
This thread is hilarious.

There's a bottom line in play. It's called 'the bottom line'. It's a financial term for those that can't see the wood for the tree's.

The sooner the UK can get it's trade deficit down and start reducing the National Debt, the sooner the likes of Red Ed et al can start getting their investment in public services back.

The Labour party fucked it up. They spent, not only every penny they took, they borrowed in a delusional belief they had 'abolished boom and bust' (how fucking stupid are these cunts?) and they mortgaged future generations livelihoods in PFI agreements.

Now, not only do they not admit where they went wrong mis-managing the economy, they want to borrow more to 'invest in Britain'.

Why, when the British economy was was running a surplus as opposed to deficit, just a decade ago, did they choose to not 'invest in Britain' but to expand the welfare state to unsustainable levels? Why?

What on earth makes these fucking idiots believe that borrowing money to invest money has one iota of sense to it?  Anyone who has ever invested money on a serious level will tell you that it's nothing more than a 50%50 bet.

Is that how our economy should be run, on the toss of a coin?

"The Labour party fucked it up.".... What is surprising about that. History will tell you they always do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 17:52:18
"The Labour party fucked it up.".... What is surprising about that. History will tell you they always do.

Sadly for Ironside, the Labour Party has been a bastion against the sort of political system that he favours....history tells you that.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 17:55:31
"The Labour party fucked it up.".... What is surprising about that. History will tell you they always do.
I know, anyone with of age knows it, anyone brought up through the 'Labour years' should be able to see it.  Yet some on here keep voting for them!


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 17:58:22
Sadly for Ironside, the Labour Party has been a bastion against the sort of political system that he favours....history tells you that.
Sadly for Reg, people aren't stupid enough to continue voting for the same old self destructive idiocy.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 18:30:52
Sadly for Reg, people aren't stupid enough to continue voting for the same old self destructive idiocy.

Are you still a BNP member or have you jumped ship to UKIP?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, April 3, 2015, 18:46:31
Quote from: Reg Smeeton
Quote
"The Labour party fucked it up.".... What is surprising about that. History will tell you they always do.
Sadly for Ironside, the Labour Party has been a bastion against the sort of political system that he favours....history tells you that.
has been..

Blair sold their soul to make them more electable. Kinnock was the last true labour leader, now they pay lip service to their old ideals.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 18:48:10
Are you still a BNP member or have you jumped ship to UKIP?
Would you care to engage in a debate about the issue and perhaps propose some soloutions? I think everyone would agree that this would be preferable as opposed to the 'you said this' kind of debate you appear to wish to engage in.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 19:17:03
Would you care to engage in a debate about the issue and perhaps propose some soloutions? I think everyone would agree that this would be preferable as opposed to the 'you said this' kind of debate you appear to wish to engage in.

I'm always up for a debate...what issue have you in mind?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, April 3, 2015, 19:17:47
Oh good.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 19:24:44
I'm always up for a debate...what issue have you in mind?
The economy?

Let's always remember that the last coalition government started from the perspective of that glorious note explaining that 'there's no money left'.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 19:33:40
The economy?

Let's always remember that the last coalition government started from the perspective of that glorious note explaining that 'there's no money left'.

Yes, not unexpected after we had to bail out the bankers and hedge fund operators after the 2008 global crash.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 19:45:47
Yes, not unexpected after we had to bail out the bankers and hedge fund operators after the 2008 global crash.
True. It's not even as if the British Government had some kind of contingency fund or something, you know, just in case their imaginary banishment of boom and bust might not have happened to be the case...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:21:08
I know, anyone with of age knows it, anyone brought up through the 'Labour years' should be able to see it.  Yet some on here keep voting for them!
I was a kid during Thatcher's years. A kid on the breadline. Wearing clothes from jumble sales, my cousins passed on items and my mum going without meals so my siblings and I could eat. We were so poor as my mother fled the marital home due to an abusive husband. This was a house that she saved the deposit to buy and until leaving lived in a desirable part of town. From that point it was a harsh reality of living under a cruel and heartless Tory government. They are doing exactly the same thing now to people in a similar position and this is 30 odd years later. I will never vote for those bastards. Ever!


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:42:26
I was a kid during Thatcher's years. A kid on the breadline. Wearing clothes from jumble sales, my cousins passed on items and my mum going without meals so my siblings and I could eat. We were so poor as my mother fled the marital home due to an abusive husband. This was a house that she saved the deposit to buy and until leaving lived in a desirable part of town. From that point it was a harsh reality of living under a cruel and heartless Tory government. They are doing exactly the same thing now to people in a similar position and this is 30 odd years later. I will never vote for those bastards. Ever!
Yep. She's still dead and hasn't been in charge for 20 years. Any solutions you fancy putting forward or is it all a dead woman's fault?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:46:53
Do immigrants take our jobs or fleece our benefits system?  Not sure which is the one I'm supposed to be angered by?

Banks - should they have been left to fold?  I think they probably should have been.  Would have wiped out a load of "savings" (investments really, and if your bank gambles it, that's the risk you take even if it is normally less risky than shares).

Social Housing - should we be building social housing stock rather than funding housing benefit?  It's a yes for me, investment in infrastructure equals jobs, reduced benefit reliance = reduced govt admin burden = equals reduced jobs, so it will al come our in the wash but it helps people.

Private housing - should it receive any kind of stimulus from governments?  Why should prices always go up?  Always ways onto the ladder, nobody makes people move into a house of their own or make them live in the South East.

Tax - should we remove taxation for anyone claiming benefits today, but also remove the benefits - why administer taking money and then giving it back?  I'd say so.  If I receive benefits while earning, why am I being taxed at the same time, equal them out.

Tax - should those earning more pay more, than they do today?  Yes.

There's a few "debates" to be had.  Unfortunately a party system makes these tough to combine, that's my problem with our democracy.  Let me vote for policies I want and maybe intelligent people to administer them?


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:47:40
I was a kid during Thatcher's years. A kid on the breadline. Wearing clothes from jumble sales, my cousins passed on items and my mum going without meals so my siblings and I could eat. We were so poor as my mother fled the marital home due to an abusive husband. This was a house that she saved the deposit to buy and until leaving lived in a desirable part of town. From that point it was a harsh reality of living under a cruel and heartless Tory government. They are doing exactly the same thing now to people in a similar position and this is 30 odd years later. I will never vote for those bastards. Ever!
Having read your post again, it's fair to say that your upbringing has less to do with Mrs T and more to do with an abusive and ultimately absent father.

Stop blaming someone else and take some responsibility for yourself.

Fucking loser.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:48:35
Yep. She's still dead and hasn't been in charge for 20 years. Any solutions you fancy putting forward or is it all a dead woman's fault?
Well you were the one raking up history, seems fair to bring other controversial figures into the debate.

While we are on history, why do people who voted into Europe get so agitated by it?  The Rome Treaty clearly outlined the path it should take as an ideal - if you don't bother to read up on it, you take your chances.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 20:58:49
Do immigrants take our jobs or fleece our benefits system?  Not sure which is the one I'm supposed to be angered by?

Banks - should they have been left to fold?  I think they probably should have been.  Would have wiped out a load of "savings" (investments really, and if your bank gambles it, that's the risk you take even if it is normally less risky than shares).

Social Housing - should we be building social housing stock rather than funding housing benefit?  It's a yes for me, investment in infrastructure equals jobs, reduced benefit reliance = reduced govt admin burden = equals reduced jobs, so it will al come our in the wash but it helps people.

Private housing - should it receive any kind of stimulus from governments?  Why should prices always go up?  Always ways onto the ladder, nobody makes people move into a house of their own or make them live in the South East.

Tax - should we remove taxation for anyone claiming benefits today, but also remove the benefits - why administer taking money and then giving it back?  I'd say so.  If I receive benefits while earning, why am I being taxed at the same time, equal them out.

Tax - should those earning more pay more, than they do today?  Yes.

There's a few "debates" to be had.  Unfortunately a party system makes these tough to combine, that's my problem with our democracy.  Let me vote for policies I want and maybe intelligent people to administer them?

Unskilled immigrants take entry level employment opportunities from the native, partially skilled population and, when they come from an economy that has invested in education for their population, they leave that economy with a skills deficiency. When they arrive in a higher-wage economy, and consider themselves, and are considered by the government of that economy to be transient, they will have a negative effect on the wages of the existing population. The simple fact is that a transient workforce doesn't have the same commitments financially that the local population have.

Other than that, I broadly agree. There's a fucking suprise!


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, April 3, 2015, 21:06:51
Yep. She's still dead and hasn't been in charge for 20 years. Any solutions you fancy putting forward or is it all a dead woman's fault?
the same thing is happening now. Different leader, same party.
Having read your post again, it's fair to say that your upbringing has less to do with Mrs T and more to do with an abusive and ultimately absent father.

Stop blaming someone else and take some responsibility for yourself.

Fucking loser.

My upbringing was great and full of love despite an absent father and my mum being skint. I'm not sure how a 4 year old could take responsibility?

Dunno how I'm a loser? Is it because I have a different view to you or because my mum got sick of being a punchbag and took herself and kids away from that situation?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 21:08:33
Well you were the one raking up history, seems fair to bring other controversial figures into the debate.

While we are on history, why do people who voted into Europe get so agitated by it?  The Rome Treaty clearly outlined the path it should take as an ideal - if you don't bother to read up on it, you take your chances.

Well the last referendum on Europe happened before most people who post on this forum were born. In fact, I'm almost 40 and my father wasn't even old enough to participate in that referendum.

That referendum incidentally was mis-sold. Everyone who was there at the time says so an they all agree they were blagged into an economic treaty which has since morphed into a political treaty.

It's about time the current generation asserted their rights, which as far as I'm concerned (and my father), means a vote.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 21:10:37
the same thing is happening now. Different leader, same party.
My upbringing was great and full of love despite an absent father and my mum being skint. I'm not sure how a 4 year old could take responsibility?

Dunno how I'm a loser? Is it because I have a different view to you or because my mum got sick of being a punchbag and took herself and kids away from that situation?
A four year old can't 'take responsibility'. A grown man, which you apparantly are can.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, April 3, 2015, 21:11:43
Can we have a political thread that doesn't involve Ironside and Paul (Okay, not Paul at the moment, but I'm sure he's firing himself up...) posting text walls at eachother about how their side makes everyone free cakes and the other side punches babies please? It's tiresome and you're about as likely to change eachothers' minds as you are to turn into pumpkins.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, April 3, 2015, 21:16:38
A four year old can't 'take responsibility'. A grown man, which you apparantly are can.
How am I not taking responsibility for myself currently then? I'd argue I am taking my responsibilities seriously enough and who are you to conclude I'm not, and how?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 21:23:23
Well the last referendum on Europe happened before most people who post on this forum were born. In fact, I'm almost 40 and my father wasn't even old enough to participate in that referendum.

That referendum incidentally was mis-sold. Everyone who was there at the time says so an they all agree they were blagged into an economic treaty which has since morphed into a political treaty.

It's about time the current generation asserted their rights, which as far as I'm concerned (and my father), means a vote.

I remember the last EU referendum, being in 1975...so your old man must have been very young.  At the time Labour was opposed to membership, after all it was the Tories who'd taken us in, under the much maligned by the Thatcherites, Edward Heath.

I thought of Heath just recently when in Salisbury, as he used to live on the Green, and there were always armed coppers, outside his house....of course no longer.  I digress, for me the thing with Heath, was that he'd fought in WW2 in Europe, and so had witnessed first hand, what happens when European powers do not co-operate. Churchill himself, had been an advocate of a European Union.

Labour opposed, as it was believed the EU would be a construct to the benefit of bankers and bosses, with working conditions suffering.  When this proved not to be the case that opposition dropped.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, April 3, 2015, 21:25:26
Unskilled immigrants take entry level employment opportunities from the native, partially skilled population and, when they come from an economy that has invested in education for their population, they leave that economy with a skills deficiency. When they arrive in a higher-wage economy, and consider themselves, and are considered by the government of that economy to be transient, they will have a negative effect on the wages of the existing population. The simple fact is that a transient workforce doesn't have the same commitments financially that the local population have.

Other than that, I broadly agree. There's a fucking suprise!

I don't buy the immigrant thing - the jobs exist and we have unemployed people, they shouldn't have any jobs to come over to in that case.  I am all for forced employment - anyone worth their skilled salt can absorb a few months in a job they don't want while still seeking employment more befitting their skill level if that's their problem.  By forced I mean take a job that is on offer or lose the minimum level of benefit I talked about before.  Seek your own money in that event by self employment or live outside of the supportive society.

I'd reinvest much of the save money into proper job seeking skills - this is most likely the fundamental problem that immigrants are beating them on - they show willing, the right attitude, suggest they will be great employees.  I've recruited a lot of people and this is the real challenge.  I was shit at interviews despite thinking otherwise until I got made redundant and was given 3 months of coaching on CV & letter writing, interview training etc.

Oh and I'd either renationalise the rail network or at least make one company responsible for both the track and carriages for cut up sections.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, April 3, 2015, 21:28:35
How am I not taking responsibility for myself currently then? I'd argue I am taking my responsibilities seriously enough and who are you to conclude I'm not, and how?
Having read Ironside's posts previously, can I politely suggest that you ignore him? He's proved himself in the past to be a racist, tiresome, angry little troll. It's probably something to do with not enough affection when he was a child, or something.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, April 3, 2015, 21:30:07
I remember the last EU referendum, being in 1975...so your old man must have been very young.  At the time Labour was opposed to membership, after all it was the Tories who'd taken us in, under the much maligned by the Thatcherites, Edward Heath.

I thought of Heath just recently when in Salisbury, as he used to live on the Green, and there were always armed coppers, outside his house....of course no longer.  I digress, for me the thing with Heath, was that he'd fought in WW2 in Europe, and so had witnessed first hand, what happens when European powers do not co-operate. Churchill himself, had been an advocate of a European Union.

Labour opposed, as it was believed the EU would be a construct to the benefit of bankers and bosses, with working conditions suffering.  When this proved not to be the case that opposition dropped.

In or Out Reg?  I'm all for it, in fact I'd give up the Pound, but I know my view is probably the minority.  Alongside it, you probably need less National Govt structures and more regional set-ups to make it fully work.  I accept the likely long term end is out, then back in, sort of, and so on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 21:34:03
Can we have a political thread that doesn't involve Ironside and Paul (Okay, not Paul at the moment, but I'm sure he's firing himself up...) posting text walls at eachother about how their side makes everyone free cakes and the other side punches babies please? It's tiresome and you're about as likely to change eachothers' minds as you are to turn into pumpkins.

Ironside...Baby Punching Party. 1

Davis.....Free Cake Party. 23,869.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 21:34:12
How am I not taking responsibility for myself currently then? I'd argue I am taking my responsibilities seriously enough and who are you to conclude I'm not, and how?
Well, you have blind hatred for Thatcher, who hasn't been Prime Minister for over 25 years, keep blaming her for everything. Full stop. It's all her fault. It's pretty weird when you think about it, I mean, you were only '4 years old'.

Still, you've declared yourself for Labour earlier in this thread and elsewhere on here, which is fair enough because it's not as if you've even actually thought about it, researched the facts, and drawn an informed conclusion to base your allegiance on, is it? It's clear, based on your post's, you're a tribal voter and not a considered voter.

Do you have constructive proposals or solutions to the very real problems facing this country?


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 21:36:34
I remember the last EU referendum, being in 1975...so your old man must have been very young.  At the time Labour was opposed to membership, after all it was the Tories who'd taken us in, under the much maligned by the Thatcherites, Edward Heath.

I thought of Heath just recently when in Salisbury, as he used to live on the Green, and there were always armed coppers, outside his house....of course no longer.  I digress, for me the thing with Heath, was that he'd fought in WW2 in Europe, and so had witnessed first hand, what happens when European powers do not co-operate. Churchill himself, had been an advocate of a European Union.

Labour opposed, as it was believed the EU would be a construct to the benefit of bankers and bosses, with working conditions suffering.  When this proved not to be the case that opposition dropped.

He informes me he missed the cut by 6 weeks and 3 days.

The rest of that post is irrelevant and superfluous.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 3, 2015, 21:36:48
In or Out Reg?  I'm all for it, in fact I'd give up the Pound, but I know my view is probably the minority.  Alongside it, you probably need less National Govt structures and more regional set-ups to make it fully work.  I accept the likely long term end is out, then back in, sort of, and so on.

I'm in. Definitely a case for reform, as it's not perfect.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, April 3, 2015, 21:47:21
Well, you have blind hatred for Thatcher, who hasn't been Prime Minister for over 25 years, keep blaming her for everything. Full stop. It's all her fault. It's pretty weird when you think about it, I mean, you were only '4 years old'.

Still, you've declared yourself for Labour earlier in this thread and elsewhere on here, which is fair enough because it's not as if you've even actually thought about it, researched the facts, and drawn an informed conclusion to base your allegiance on, is it? It's clear, based on your post's, you're a tribal voter and not a considered voter.

Do you have constructive proposals or solutions to the very real problems facing this country?
Herthab has it right. Pointless debating with you. Your inaccurate conclusions about me and abuse mean we can't really go anywhere with this can we?


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 22:05:38
Herthab has it right. Pointless debating with you. Your inaccurate conclusions about me and abuse mean we can't really go anywhere with this can we?
Why did you give us your sob-story and not answer any of the questions I posed in my post then?


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, April 3, 2015, 22:14:11
Why did you give us your sob-story and not answer any of the questions I posed in my post then?
Sob story? Nah mate just a life experience.
I answered the first question you asked. I then asked you some questions which you ignored, so why should I continue to answer questions for you? particularly when you've been deliberately insulting and made some ridiculous conclusions that mean whatever I say is irrelevant anyway.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 3, 2015, 23:08:46
Sob story? Nah mate just a life experience.
I answered the first question you asked. I then asked you some questions which you ignored, so why should I continue to answer questions for you? particularly when you've been deliberately insulting and made some ridiculous conclusions that mean whatever I say is irrelevant anyway.

Yep, sob story, it's all Maggie's fault.

The only question's you asked we're relevant to my criticism of you and not  relevant to the question of the wellbeing of the economy which, as I made clear in my original post, is the bottom line.

How about giving us some solutions instead of bleating on about how hard done you are? Which party do you think provide a solution and why?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, April 3, 2015, 23:58:36
It's funny people putting Thatcher down and saying they'd never vote for the Tories. Fact is that the main thrust of Thatcher's polices have now become the norm and adopted by Labour as much as the Tories - low personal taxes, a reduced state, privatisation for example. The current Labour party are as much a relation to the Thatcher Tory era as the current Tories are.

As regards the migrant worker debate. My experience is that migrant workers (especially those from Eastern Europe) work harder, don't moan and don't take the piss like their British counterparts do. The problem isn't the migrant workers, it's the British workers who need to stop relying on everything being handed to them on a plate and do some proper hard work instead.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 01:49:48
We've got a pretty high number of eastern Europeans in our area,  considering we're in the middle of the countryside,  and frankly there are zero problems with them.  They work their arses off and I would be highly surprised if they are a meaningful percentage of people who claim benefits.

Yes there are people who take the piss.  But they always exist no matter what their nationality is. I could name two dozen or so 'native brits' who do fuck all work and yet are always in the pub buying ten or twelve pints on a regular basis. What fucks me off is that I, and others like me are working out collective arses off serving them , and part of my wage is essentially going to fund their habit. I don't see why in this day and age benefits (universal as they now are)  couldn't be stuck on a card of some description that won't accept a transaction including non-essentials. The dole is there to pay the rent and put food in people's mouths, not to buy them fags and booze.

I have been on the dole and I am happy to pay back into it now I'm making some half-decent money. The benefits system and the NHS are both brilliant things that need protecting. Reform,  probably, but protection,  definitely.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: otanswell on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 07:33:07
Well that debate was crap, wasn't it.

The only moment of any interest was Farage deciding to have a go at foreign people with AIDS. Those evil bastards.

That was hilarious. If your foreign and have AIDS fuck off back to where you come from, he's right in a sense to be honest


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 08:26:34
How much a year is lost to the country through benefit fraud? How much is lost through tax loopholes for big business? Both should be addressed, but why is the main focus on the first one?

Jonny is right in the sense that Thatcher's legacy has been widespread and affected not only her own party. That doesn't make it a good thing though. Take privatisation of essential services; how many of those have been improved because of it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 08:57:23
How much a year is lost to the country through benefit fraud? How much is lost through tax loopholes for big business?

Remember some figures saw the other day 1.2 billion v 102 billion ( in that range ) but as the larger amount is from the Tories cronies you know which one is chased.
Also the figure for unclaimed benefits is amazingly huge as well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 09:52:55
How much a year is lost to the country through benefit fraud? How much is lost through tax loopholes for big business? Both should be addressed, but why is the main focus on the first one?

Jonny is right in the sense that Thatcher's legacy has been widespread and affected not only her own party. That doesn't make it a good thing though. Take privatisation of essential services; how many of those have been improved because of it?


Pretty much all I reckon. Plus they pay their way and contribute tax into the system rather than being dependent on tax bailouts that were the norm before they were privatised. You must bare in mind and remember that any investment into a business either via a tax handout or by private means (share issues, loans or owners own cash) demands a return in productivity and profitability, which the unions always fought tooth and nail over, that's why this country got overtaken in the 60's, 70's & 80's.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 10:14:14
I have no issue with privatisation, but the regulators are toothless.  Have things improved - yes, because huge investment has been made.  Now look at why the investment is being made:

Capital investment is an allowable tax offset, so investing reduces tax burdens allowing profits to be made and then distributed to shareholders in higher %'s.  Sort of ok with that, but....

The companies often loan themselves the money for the capital projects through offshore companies they own, Cayman Islands being the norm.  They charge interest, which is also offset against profits to wipe out the tax burden.  The interest is paid to themselves in an offshore company making billions which is not subject to any taxation.  We pay for it in rising prices.

It's this that winds me up about privatised companies.  Also you get Gas and Electric providers bemoaning the wholesale price of Gas but they sell it to themselves as they generally own the entire chain.

A little more thought about why the service is being provided and you can could come to a much more equitable set-up.  A company driven to make profit is likely to innovate, but it shouldn't have such carte blanche to print money like they have now.

Basically, the system today over rewards capital investment meaning we get improvements, but not at a good rate of return for us as the general public.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 10:21:03
Oh and I'd add it probably isn't much use in a complete monopoly market.

Gas and Electric can compete against each other, sort of
Trains have other forms of transport to compete with
BT - wide market, especially once mobile came about
Water - utter nuts, and I worked in it!

Now that's not to say a private company cannot be used in Water, but it should be heavily geared towards public provision.

NHS - not a chance in hell.  One of the great ideas of recent history and private companies should be kept well away.  Self interested drug companies have no place in the provision of service.  Allow competitive purchasing power, but this should remain completely in some for of government control.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 10:27:03
Here's an example of the home building policy I was against earlier:

https://www.gov.uk/government/policies/increasing-the-number-of-available-homes/supporting-pages/empty-homes

If people want a home, they exist.  They have already been built.  If people are hard-up and need support, social housing should be designed to sort that problem out, but I really don't understand why we seem intent on making housing a commodity and then support everyone to buy them? especially when we don't really need the extra 200k houses all the main parties seem to be committing to.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 14:57:46
How much a year is lost to the country through benefit fraud? How much is lost through tax loopholes for big business? Both should be addressed, but why is the main focus on the first one?

Jonny is right in the sense that Thatcher's legacy has been widespread and affected not only her own party. That doesn't make it a good thing though. Take privatisation of essential services; how many of those have been improved because of it?

How much is created by benefit fraud and how much is created via the loopholes you have a problem with?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 15:06:20
We've got a pretty high number of eastern Europeans in our area,  considering we're in the middle of the countryside,  and frankly there are zero problems with them.  They work their arses off and I would be highly surprised if they are a meaningful percentage of people who claim benefits.

Yes there are people who take the piss.  But they always exist no matter what their nationality is. I could name two dozen or so 'native brits' who do fuck all work and yet are always in the pub buying ten or twelve pints on a regular basis. What fucks me off is that I, and others like me are working out collective arses off serving them , and part of my wage is essentially going to fund their habit. I don't see why in this day and age benefits (universal as they now are)  couldn't be stuck on a card of some description that won't accept a transaction including non-essentials. The dole is there to pay the rent and put food in people's mouths, not to buy them fags and booze.

I have been on the dole and I am happy to pay back into it now I'm making some half-decent money. The benefits system and the NHS are both brilliant things that need protecting. Reform,  probably, but protection,  definitely.
Eastern Europeans aren't the problem though, are they?

The problem is not where people come from. The problem is how many of them come here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 15:19:51
How much is created by benefit fraud and how much is created via the loopholes you have a problem with?

I gave up about ten years ago trying to debate this sort of thing, as I could see it was futile. I'd just like to make one point, and that is it serves the interests of those at the top if everyone else blames each other, because it allows them to keep taking the food from our tables unnoticed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 15:25:28
Pretty much all I reckon. Plus they pay their way and contribute tax into the system rather than being dependent on tax bailouts that were the norm before they were privatised. You must bare in mind and remember that any investment into a business either via a tax handout or by private means (share issues, loans or owners own cash) demands a return in productivity and profitability, which the unions always fought tooth and nail over, that's why this country got overtaken in the 60's, 70's & 80's.

What improvements have there been to the previously public services? I struggle to see them. I do see an unfit for purpose and expensive train network still propped up by the tax payer. Utilities companies confusing their customers and often ripping them off on high tariffs whilst recording huge profits too.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 16:17:05
What improvements have there been to the previously public services? I struggle to see them. I do see an unfit for purpose and expensive train network still propped up by the tax payer. Utilities companies confusing their customers and often ripping them off on high tariffs whilst recording huge profits too.

Blah blah fucking blah. The best improvement to public services would be to cull 50% of them, mainly desk jockey's and the money diverted to the front line.

Red Ed's pronouncement about price controls was fucking retarded and only served to increase prices. Almost immediately in fact.

The answer is not to impose controls, but to encourage people to invest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 17:29:57
What improvements have there been to the previously public services? I struggle to see them. I do see an unfit for purpose and expensive train network still propped up by the tax payer. Utilities companies confusing their customers and often ripping them off on high tariffs whilst recording huge profits too.

Decades of underinvestment means years and years of reinvestment. The tax payer now pays less and less in subsidies each year my dear fellow. The rail companies and infrastructure are miles better than they used to be but still need more investment. You clearly are not old enough to remember shit service shit rolling stock that BR under ASLEF & NUR dictatorship used to laughingly call a a service.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 17:42:15
Decades of underinvestment means years and years of reinvestment. The tax payer now pays less and less in subsidies each year my dear fellow. The rail companies and infrastructure are miles better than they used to be but still need more investment. You clearly are not old enough to remember shit service shit rolling stock that BR under ASLEF & NUR dictatorship used to laughingly call a a service.
years and years of investment needed regardless of it being publicly owned or private. We're still paying for it though aren't we? If subsidies are down then is this being coupled with increased ticket prices which are extortionate. So still paying really?
 Yep, I am not old enough to remember the times you mention. That was then though, not now. People generally have nothing but complaints regarding rail travel. I don't see how privatised services have improved for their sales.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 17:45:50
Decades of underinvestment means years and years of reinvestment. The tax payer now pays less and less in subsidies each year my dear fellow. The rail companies and infrastructure are miles better than they used to be but still need more investment. You clearly are not old enough to remember shit service shit rolling stock that BR under ASLEF & NUR dictatorship used to laughingly call a a service.
'the tax payer now pays less and less in subsidies each year'. Maybe, but we pay more and more for the services. And fat cats are now getting richer than they already were from services that the state used to own and control, albeit not always as well as they could.
Oh, one other thing. I don't mind being insulted (I'm used to it) but I'd be grateful if you could keep the patronising out of your posts. There's a good girl.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 17:51:24
How much is created by benefit fraud and how much is created via the loopholes you have a problem with?
What an amoral question (hardly surprising, given the source). I'm not talking about penalising big business, or increasing corporation tax, merely closing the loopholes that allow them to fleece this country out of tax they should be paying. I can't understand how anybody, apart from those few benefiting from this, can possibly defend it.
But yeah, much easier to target those on benefit, or immigrants.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 17:56:40
 I see there's been a leak, that Sturgeon has said the SNP want a Tory victory, as this will hasten Sweatie independence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 18:15:58
I see there's been a leak, that Sturgeon has said the SNP want a Tory victory, as this will hasten Sweatie independence.

Expect a lot better from you Reg. Telegraph report on a 'leak' that Sturgeon and the French ambassador deny. Sturgeon and the French denied this last night, around 30 mins after the telegraph made up the story, yet the media have ran with it any way all day. Labour supporters  seem to be happy to repeat the lies just to try and score a point.

Truth is labour jumping on this has yet again backfired in their fight v SNP, at this rate they'll be wiped out in Scotland. SNP are going to take some stopping now.

Propaganda at its finest, disappointing to see people like Reg swallow this kind of shit and repeat in such a manner.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 18:26:20
There isn't anyone to stop the SNP this time.  They're the only party in Scotland with any real credibility at this election.  The speed with which the Labour vote up here has collapsed is breath-taking.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 18:33:48
There isn't anyone to stop the SNP this time.  They're the only party in Scotland with any real credibility at this election.  The speed with which the Labour vote up here has collapsed is breath-taking.

And the great thing is it's all labour's own doing! Getting into bed with the Tories, and the overly negative fear ongoing Bitter together campaign. They're fucked up there, hopefully for good. Good luck to Sturgeon, she's stepped up to the plate well.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 18:44:37
Must admit, I don't really understand the loathing of Labour for working with the Tories on securing the No vote.  Politicians are often accused of being disingenuous and taking an opposing position for the sake of it.  But when there is a genuine cause that they agree on (in this case, preserving the union), Labour get flamed for fighting for what they believed in.  Should they have fought for a Yes vote just because the Tories wanted a No?

I do agree with you that the tone of the No campaign was all wrong.  Still do not understand why the No side did such a bad job of setting oyt (or didn't even bother to set out) a positive message for remaining in the UK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 18:57:33
hope over fear. The No campaign just used scare tactics, it'll live long in the memories up there. Not sure how Labour will recover. Murphy's a complete bellend, Miliband well what can you say, knob jockey. And SNP are playing a blinder. Soon to be playing that blinder at WM I expect.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 19:28:17
The snp and plaid cymru will appeal to their respective voters so are bound to do well in their countries. Apart from the comical bnp what do English people have that appeals solely to them as English citizens?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 19:36:38
I wonder, as stupid as it sounds, if there could be an English offshoot of the SNP, like a devolution for all kind of party. One of the problems the SNP Scots have with Labour is the way Labour are trying to make the SNP out to be like a Scottish BNP, which they're not, they just want to be able to look after themselves. The whole armed guards on the border, messy divorce picture painted by Bitter Together has led to this.

Could be a hell of a game changer.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 20:04:49
Devolution for all has to be the way if the UK is going to continue.  The assymetry in arrangements for each of the UK nations is currently pulling it apart at the seams.  The English have, up until now, been fairly lukewarm to the idea of English devolution.  But those in England who would like to stay in the UK are probably realising it needs to happen now in some form.

Quite like the idea of a federal UK myself.  And the Lib Dems are keen on it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 20:27:00
hope over fear. The No campaign just used scare tactics, it'll live long in the memories up there. Not sure how Labour will recover. Murphy's a complete bellend, Miliband well what can you say, knob jockey. And SNP are playing a blinder. Soon to be playing that blinder at WM I expect.
Scots dodged a bullet there, the Picses, duo (Salmond & Sturgeon) have quietly dropped the fact that they would be financially fucked with the drop in the cost of North Sea oil, strange that eh?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 21:07:40
What an amoral question (hardly surprising, given the source). I'm not talking about penalising big business, or increasing corporation tax, merely closing the loopholes that allow them to fleece this country out of tax they should be paying. I can't understand how anybody, apart from those few benefiting from this, can possibly defend it.
But yeah, much easier to target those on benefit, or immigrants.
Amoral? Are you fucking serious or are you retarded?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 21:58:48
Ironside, just out of interest, does your tag line of "we must exterminate the Jews Liberals also reflect your political leanings at all?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 22:01:05
amoral
eɪˈmɒr(ə)l/
adjective
lacking a moral sense; unconcerned with the rightness or wrongness of something.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 22:03:05
Ah TEF political season.

Roll on election day.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 22:03:35
Ironside, just out of interest, does your tag line of "we must exterminate the Jews" also reflect your political leanings at all?
It doesn't say that - it says Liberals, not Jews. But he's BNP, so broadly in that direction yes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 22:21:08
Ah TEF political season.

Roll on election day.
I'm finding it a welcome distraction from thinking of today's events....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Saturday, April 4, 2015, 22:53:04
Ironside, just out of interest, does your tag line of "we must exterminate the Jews Liberals also reflect your political leanings at all?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3IV6v89gqg


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 09:45:35
Scots dodged a bullet there, the Picses, duo (Salmond & Sturgeon) have quietly dropped the fact that they would be financially fucked with the drop in the cost of North Sea oil, strange that eh?

Source please, I haven't read that.

And the Scots wouldn't be 'financially fucked', as if it had been a yes, they wouldn't even be independent yet. That's my understanding of the timescales involved, I could be wrong on that though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 10:06:34
Source please, I haven't read that.

And the Scots wouldn't be 'financially fucked', as if it had been a yes, they wouldn't even be independent yet. That's my understanding of the timescales involved, I could be wrong on that though.

A large chunk of the yes campaigns stratagem involved the revenue that North Sea oil & natural gas for that matter would bring in, fact. The price of a barrel of Brent crude peaked @ $120 + in November 2011 & fluctuated to just under $120 until the second half of 2014, luckily for the Pisces duo the collapse in the oil markets came after the vote. The current price of Brent crude is $60 per barrel the other, natural gas has also seen a slump in price. Would you like me to show you those spot prices too? Other than tourism and whiskey what else would they have to flog to pay their way, coal?

Trident could be relocated, after all the SNP and labour would like us to stick our hands up and surrender at the first sign of homeland trouble. The EUSSR were saying you're not joining if you go it alone and you're also not having the wonderful overpriced Euro to boot. Remains open to conjecture if that would have been the case. In any case if they had said yes they could consider themselves unlucky in the respect that they went from the frying pan into the per-verbal fire.

Personally I wish the jocks had said yes....... :D

The Taffs & the N. Paddy's on the other hand know which side the bread is buttered, even then they both think Westminster should throw more cash at them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 10:15:28
A large chunk of the yes campaigns stratagem involved the revenue that North Sea oil & natural gas for that matter would bring in, fact. The price of a barrel of Brent crude peaked @ $120 + in November 2011 & fluctuated to just under $120 until the second half of 2014, luckily for the Pisces duo the collapse in the oil markets came after the vote. The current price of Brent crude is $60 per barrel the other, natural gas has also seen a slump in price. Would you like me to show you those spot prices too? Other than tourism and whiskey what else would they have to flog to pay their way, coal?

Trident could be relocated, after all the SNP and labour would like us to stick our hands up and surrender at the first sign of homeland trouble. The EUSSR were saying you're not joining if you go it alone and you're also not having the wonderful overpriced Euro to boot. Remains open to conjecture if that would have been the case. In any case if they had said yes they could consider themselves unlucky in the respect that they went from the frying pan into the per-verbal fire.

Personally I wish the jocks had said yes....... :D

The Taffs & the N. Paddy's on the other hand know which side the bread is buttered, even then they both think Westminster should throw more cash at them.

Understand that, however, you've stated that Salmond and sturgeon have come out saying Scotland would be financially fucked if they had voted yes. Can you provide a source for that please?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 10:45:12
BBC reporter tweeting he's been abused for reporting that snp members had made comments to him that were the same as those attributed to its leader. No smoke without fire it would appear.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 10:47:05
Understand that, however, you've stated that Salmond and sturgeon have come out saying Scotland would be financially fucked if they had voted yes. Can you provide a source for that please?

Sorry if you got that impression, maybe we did not read each other's posts properly. I'm saying that the duo have remained silent since the vote WRT the financial aspect of their campaign. That being how they would survive financially without Westminster funding when the largest part of Scotland's income came from oil & gas which as I've stated has collapsed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 11:04:21
I obviously don't know as much as some of the learned posters on here, regarding Scottish independence, however as all the main parties in the UK joined together to campaign for them to stay, they must feel that Scotland is an important and integral part of it. as to whether Scotland could survive on their own, it's pretty silly to spout the same old bollocks about North Sea oil, as if that's the only thing they could use. there's many countries with little or no natural resources that survive and even thrive.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 11:20:48
Let's not forget the huge oil find they made in the Falklands this week. Cue the Argentines ramping up their efforts to get them back again.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 12:46:21
Quite like the idea of a federal UK myself.  And the Lib Dems are keen on it.

Me too. Seems to be the perfect solution, we'd still be the UK but each state would have the control they want.

And the Scots wouldn't be 'financially fucked', as if it had been a yes, they wouldn't even be independent yet. That's my understanding of the timescales involved, I could be wrong on that though.

There was one senior member of the SNP campaign who genuinely believed devolution could have been achieved prior to the general election. Which is another good example of just how deluded the SNP are.

It's pretty silly to spout the same old bollocks about North Sea oil, as if that's the only thing they could use. there's many countries with little or no natural resources that survive and even thrive.

A large part of the SNP campaign was how they would be better off financially if independent. Their increased financial wealth was based solely on the price of oil and gas. IIRC the SNP used a price of $100USD a barrel, there was a lot of debate about the price going forward with the SNP claiming all the industry experts saying this was a realistic price.

If they were independent now, they would indeed by totally fucked financially due to the reliance on high oil prices. And if they'd got their way of continuing to use a shared currency, who do you think would now be stuck with bailing them out?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Down on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 14:10:42
Back to politics local to Swindon. Can we campaign to get that giant puddle in the CG car park next to the Town's shop to be fixed?! My feet get wet everytimes its rains.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 14:14:58
Back to politics local to Swindon. Can we campaign to get that giant puddle in the CG car park next to the Town's shop to be fixed?! My feet get wet everytimes its rains.

Vote Down!

In fact.... Up down!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 17:34:05
I'm in. Definitely a case for reform, as it's not perfect.

Out of interest what would be your proposals for reforming the EU?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 18:39:54
Out,.Cameron will get fuck all if he has a mandate to "negotiate", Wallace even less if he tries but of course he won't as it is not on his agenda and even less so the SNP & Limpdens who's support he'll need. The only way we will get what we need as in the British interest is to walk away and make no mistake they AKA the other 26 nations will shit themselves if we do. Oh they love the British, no, they all love our money and obsessiveness in abiding by the rules which most of them ignore. Once out we can name our price to go back should A) there still be an EU to go back to & B) should we need to.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 20:28:44
BBC reporter tweeting he's been abused for reporting that snp members had made comments to him that were the same as those attributed to its leader. No smoke without fire it would appear.

The bbc haven't exactly covered themselves in glory re:Scotland of late. And so what if 'SNP members' have expressed that view, not all members will agree on everything.

Roll on May, hoping we have a Tory government but if not it'll be interesting to see the SNP shake up WM a fair bit. Sturgeon's a class act and the media will have to up their smear game if they want shot of her.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: OrangeTransits on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 22:17:25
Out,.Cameron will get fuck all if he has a mandate to "negotiate", Wallace even less if he tries but of course he won't as it is not on his agenda and even less so the SNP & Limpdens who's support he'll need. The only way we will get what we need as in the British interest is to walk away and make no mistake they AKA the other 26 nations will shit themselves if we do. Oh they love the British, no, they all love our money and obsessiveness in abiding by the rules which most of them ignore. Once out we can name our price to go back should A) there still be an EU to go back to & B) should we need to.

Spot on.... Only party offering this is UKIP. I know there not everyone's cup of tea. Time for change. Farage at least says it how it is. Most of the time. He's a bit rough round the edges but that is his appeal to the masses I guess. The more he puts his foot in it the higher his rating go. He's only human like the rest of us. Political correctness has knocked most English people into believing displaying our own flag on our own Patron Saints day is Racist. Fucking madness.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Sunday, April 5, 2015, 22:46:55
Hmmmmm, maybe it's the fact he thinks the country should be worried about people coming here to get their AIDS fixed is the policy that has me despairing?

We've got a nuclear deterrent for fucks sake, I'd rather Raving Lord Such got in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Monday, April 6, 2015, 13:19:17
Out,.Cameron will get fuck all if he has a mandate to "negotiate", Wallace even less if he tries but of course he won't as it is not on his agenda and even less so the SNP & Limpdens who's support he'll need. The only way we will get what we need as in the British interest is to walk away and make no mistake they AKA the other 26 nations will shit themselves if we do. Oh they love the British, no, they all love our money and obsessiveness in abiding by the rules which most of them ignore. Once out we can name our price to go back should A) there still be an EU to go back to & B) should we need to.

Can someone explain why we need to leave the EU and what the benefits of doing so are?

Think a lot of people just take everything Farage says, especially regarding the cost of the EU and migrant workers, at face value when the facts are somewhat different. I'm yet to read or see anything that makes a convincing argument for us to leave.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, April 6, 2015, 13:34:56
And I'm yet to read a convincing argument to stay. Facts in politics are what you make of them. Everyone will take anything that supports their stance and it then becomes fact.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: OrangeTransits on Monday, April 6, 2015, 13:44:44
You can only judge an organisation when you know what it was set-up for. Most people talk about the EU in terms of economics, but it was never set-up for that purpose. The European Union was set-up to prevent another war in Europe.

The EU is a front for German-based economic imperialism-- sucking value from the peripheral states into its centre and flattening all with the IMF in the one hand and required NATO arms purchases in the other. Poor Ukraine
is only the latest butterfly to be lured into the Venus Trap for Brussels/Berlin/Frankfurt digestion.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Monday, April 6, 2015, 14:43:19
Ironside, just out of interest, does your tag line of "we must exterminate the Jews Liberals also reflect your political leanings at all?
That was placed by FlammableBen or whatever his name is now and has nothing to do with me, nor does it reflect my views.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Monday, April 6, 2015, 14:44:45
amoral
eɪˈmɒr(ə)l/
adjective
lacking a moral sense; unconcerned with the rightness or wrongness of something.
Cheers for dictionary reference.  Who the fucking hell are you to dictate my morals?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Monday, April 6, 2015, 15:38:38
Cheers for dictionary reference.  Who the fucking hell are you to dictate my morals?
I don't believe I've dictated anything. Highlighted a lack maybe, but not dictated....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, April 6, 2015, 16:07:53
I don't believe I've dictated anything. Highlighted a lack maybe, but not dictated....

I always thought Ironside liked Dictators...he must be going soft in his old age.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Monday, April 6, 2015, 16:57:52
I always thought Ironside liked Dictators...he must be going soft in his old age.
Not only are you going soft, you are clearly going mental.

Still, nobody addresses the points made, but they attack the person making the points...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Monday, April 6, 2015, 19:04:03
Come on for fucks sake.

We have so many gobshites here who consistently fail to address problems but bitch about anyone who raises them, you would think we have a PM in the making!

Give me solutions, not stupidity.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: stfc1975 on Monday, April 6, 2015, 19:22:24
Come on for fucks sake.

We have so many gobshites here who consistently fail to address problems but bitch about anyone who raises them, you would think we have a PM in the making!

Give me solutions, not stupidity.

E=mc2


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Monday, April 6, 2015, 19:28:47
E=mc2
Well done, however that poses a question not a solution. Or does it?...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: stfc1975 on Monday, April 6, 2015, 19:30:48
Well done, however that poses a question not a solution. Or does it?...

It's all relative


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Monday, April 6, 2015, 19:46:15
It's all relative
So they say. I'm yet to be convinced...


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: stfc1975 on Monday, April 6, 2015, 19:54:25
[quotThe  uthor=Ironside link=topic=55431.msg1320605#msg1320605 date=1428345975]
So they say. I'm yet to be convinced...
[/quote]

.... The truth is out there........ somewhere.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, April 6, 2015, 20:41:40
Come on for fucks sake.

We have so many gobshites here who consistently fail to address problems but bitch about anyone who raises them, you would think we have a PM in the making!

Give me solutions, not stupidity.
Maybe if you weren't such an unpleasant twat people may engage with you more?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Monday, April 6, 2015, 21:09:59
Without being diverted on petty tit for tat comments, my point was: There's a bottom line in play. It's called 'the bottom line'. It's a financial term for those that can't see the wood for the tree's.

The sooner the UK can get it's trade deficit down and start reducing the National Debt, the sooner the likes of Red Ed et al can start getting their investment in public services back.

The Labour party fucked it up. They spent, not only every penny they took, they borrowed in a delusional belief they had 'abolished boom and bust' (how fucking stupid are these cunts?) and they mortgaged future generations livelihoods in PFI agreements.

Now, not only do they not admit where they went wrong mis-managing the economy, they want to borrow more to 'invest in Britain'.

Why, when the British economy was was running a surplus as opposed to deficit, just a decade ago, did they choose to not 'invest in Britain' but to expand the welfare state to unsustainable levels? Why?

What on earth makes these fucking idiots believe that borrowing money to invest money has one iota of sense to it?  Anyone who has ever invested money on a serious level will tell you that it's nothing more than a 50%50 bet.

Is that how our economy should be run, on the toss of a coin?

How about dealing with those points instead of being little b
itches an getting you knickers in a twist over the delivery?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Monday, April 6, 2015, 21:53:58
Maybe if you weren't such an unpleasant twat people may engage with you more?
Arriba, you have constantly complained but offered no solutions. Come on, tell us all how you're going to solve the country's problems, particularly the financial ones. I would love to hear it.

Here's a few questions that you can answer:

1) If you have a massive debt, what is your plan to deal with this? Are you going to borrow more, that you can't afford or are you going to get your spending in order, or are you going to choose bankruptcy?

2) If you can't afford services at home, do you think it's sensible to give £12b a year away? Or is it more appropriate to reduce A&E instead? Which of the two should be reduced? £12b abroad, or £8b making up the shortfall the NHS is going to have over the course of the next 5 years?

3) Despite almost 13 years of a 40% higher tax rate, bar 2 months prior to The last election when it was raised b to 50%, followed by a reduction to 45%, are you clever enough to work out which regime was the most accommodating to big business?

4) Labour expanded the welfare state to the extent that people who get off their arses, and graft all week, are condemned to a maximum wage. It's a maximum wage and Labour made it so. They decided to give people 'in work credits' and actively supported and encouraged a low wage economy. Labour fucking hate you. Look at their front bench, and look at their leader.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: stfc1975 on Monday, April 6, 2015, 23:28:19
I love the fact you are the same age as me.  Thought you would of been older(not a criticism)

As has been said  opinons are like arseholes ..etc etc etc. I know its a debate. But no
Ones gonna win.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, April 8, 2015, 21:58:46
If we could park the dull personal abuse briefly, let's all marvel in the bizarre reflected glory of the Green election broadcast

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PPgS7p40ERg&feature=youtu.be

What the actual fuck.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Thursday, April 9, 2015, 09:28:38
It's all relative

That's the theory.

Ironside, which side of the fence are you on? :sherlock:


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 10, 2015, 17:04:44
That's the theory.

Ironside, which side of the fence are you on? :sherlock:
The right side, obviously...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Friday, April 10, 2015, 17:12:11
Arriba, you have constantly complained but offered no solutions. Come on, tell us all how you're going to solve the country's problems, particularly the financial ones. I would love to hear it.

Here's a few questions that you can answer:

1) If you have a massive debt, what is your plan to deal with this? Are you going to borrow more, that you can't afford or are you going to get your spending in order, or are you going to choose bankruptcy?

2) If you can't afford services at home, do you think it's sensible to give £12b a year away? Or is it more appropriate to reduce A&E instead? Which of the two should be reduced? £12b abroad, or £8b making up the shortfall the NHS is going to have over the course of the next 5 years?

3) Despite almost 13 years of a 40% higher tax rate, bar 2 months prior to The last election when it was raised b to 50%, followed by a reduction to 45%, are you clever enough to work out which regime was the most accommodating to big business?

4) Labour expanded the welfare state to the extent that people who get off their arses, and graft all week, are condemned to a maximum wage. It's a maximum wage and Labour made it so. They decided to give people 'in work credits' and actively supported and encouraged a low wage economy. Labour fucking hate you. Look at their front bench, and look at their leader.

Your 1st point - who has got the country more in debt? Try looking at this http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_debt_chart.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Friday, April 10, 2015, 17:17:02
If we could park the dull personal abuse briefly, let's all marvel in the bizarre reflected glory of the Green election broadcast

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PPgS7p40ERg&feature=youtu.be

What the actual fuck.
I had to turn over when this was on - I felt embarrassed watching it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ExiledEric on Friday, April 10, 2015, 17:36:17

Christ, they are serious I think. 


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 10, 2015, 17:37:10
Your 1st point - who has got the country more in debt? Try looking at this http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_debt_chart.html
Labour. The Labour party had 13 years to reduce national debt, didn't and then when the economy went kaput, had zero reserves to deal with it. I've already explained, they mortgaged the country to the eyeballs (they even left a note saying the country was skint). Increased the national debt and expanded the welfare state to unsustainable levels.

It took them 13 years to bring the country to it's knees and some people think that the current government are responsible for the state of public finances, but that they should have been sorted out in five years. It's just bizarre to be honest with you, especially considering the Tories have been hamstrung by being in a coalition with the Liberal Democrats.

I've pretty much decided that the vast majority of people in the UK have some kind of mental deficiency when it comes to financial management, whether that be on a national or personal level. The National and personal debt levels support that assertion.

Despite that, some people seem to think that Labour are a good idea for the next government!


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Friday, April 10, 2015, 17:49:48
Labour. The Labour party had 13 years to reduce national debt, didn't and then when the economy went kaput, had zero reserves to deal with it. I've already explained, they mortgaged the country to the eyeballs (they even left a note saying the country was skint). Increased the national debt and expanded the welfare state to unsustainable levels.

It took them 13 years to bring the country to it's knees and some people think that the current government are responsible for the state of public finances, but that they should have been sorted out in five years. It's just bizarre to be honest with you, especially considering the Tories have been hamstrung by being in a coalition with the Liberal Democrats.

I've pretty much decided that the vast majority of people in the UK have some kind of mental deficiency when it comes to financial management, whether that be on a national or personal level. The National and personal debt levels support that assertion.

Despite that, some people seem to think that Labour are a good idea for the next government!

http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/mythbusters-excessive-government-borrowing-got-us-into-this-mess

Perhaps it's you with the mental deficiency.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ExiledEric on Friday, April 10, 2015, 18:00:14
Some interesting data there Arnold Corns.   That said, I haven't scoured the NEF Website but they describe themselves as "NEF is the UK's leading think tank promoting social, economic and environmental justice".  Thus, you can't help but wonder whether they would - by definition - be likely to be pro-Labour.  Not saying that their data is false of course but isn't this a bit like a (admittedly more intellectual) Daily Mail precis of the current Tory Government?

The country was left royally f*cked at the end of the Labour tenure, even if it wasn't in that state during the early years of the Blair government.  I have no doubt at all that the level of debt was substantially due to the banking crisis, as it was in most other European countries.  The question is, of course, how much can you attribute to the Labour Government.  What would the Conservative view of increased controls over global banks' London operation by a Labour Government?  Global banks tend to be very mobile in terms of where they locate people.  A potential exodus of jobs in the City would have been widely condemned.

The crisis was pretty deep and balancing the books would be no mean feat.  However, if five years isn't enough time to resolve things, how long is?  Should the current government be judged over 8, 10, 13 years?  How many years is the correct number?

I don't understand the maximum wage point.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 10, 2015, 18:06:23
http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/mythbusters-excessive-government-borrowing-got-us-into-this-mess

Perhaps it's you with the mental deficiency.
As Exiled Eric pointed out, the source you site is indeed a leftist publication.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Friday, April 10, 2015, 18:24:25
As Exiled Eric pointed out, the source you site is indeed a leftist publication.

So they have made it all up have they. Even the ex Bank of England Governor agreed that it wasn't the Labour government that caused the mess.

If Labour hadn't bailed out the banks the Country would have gone into a deep depression.
Anyone who thinks the Tories will look out for the ordinary working people in this country is deluded.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Friday, April 10, 2015, 18:32:06
Anyone who thinks the Tories will look out for the ordinary working people in this country is deluded.
This is exactly how I feel.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ExiledEric on Friday, April 10, 2015, 18:36:31

I suppose the question is will any of the parties look after the ordinary people?  Do Labour's elite really resonate any more with the average working guy than the Bullingdon Club members?  I'm really not sure any more (and have voted Labour in every election since I turned 18 in 1983 and was living in Park North)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, April 10, 2015, 19:07:11
So, just so I've got this right, Labour are to blame for the financial crisis, which was part of a Global financial crisis? I'm not a Labour voter and don't plan on voting for them time, but to blame a financial crisis that affected many countries worldwide on a single national political party is bizarre.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 10, 2015, 19:32:15
So, just so I've got this right, Labour are to blame for the financial crisis, which was part of a Global financial crisis? I'm not a Labour voter and don't plan on voting for them time, but to blame a financial crisis that affected many countries worldwide on a single national political party is bizarre.
I haven't said Labour were to blame for the global banking crisis though.

Labour are to blame for overspending and under saving. Simple terms for simple people...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, April 10, 2015, 20:04:32
I haven't said Labour were to blame for the global banking crisis though.

Labour are to blame for overspending and under saving. Simple terms for simple people...
Ah right, thanks for simplifying it for me. Just out of interest, when was the UK last in a no debt situation? Most countries run with debt, including Germany, Japan, The US, Canada.... The list goes on and on. It's not that important really, is it? I mean it only really affects us, the great unwashed, when governments use it as a reason for cutting essential services, victimising the most vulnerable and selling off anything that's still publically owned. At the same time protecting big business and turning a blind eye to high level tax avoidance.
I'm sure it's much more complicated than that, someone of my limited intelligence couldn't possibly understand it fully.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, April 10, 2015, 20:19:43
Anyone who thinks the Tories will look out for the ordinary working people in this country is deluded.

How will Labour look out for the ordinary working people?

Under the current Tory government, someone earning £20k a year pays about £800 a year less in taxes now than 5 years ago and unemployment is currently down around 0.6m from 5 years ago. i'd have thought more take home pay and more jobs are the best thing any government could do.

I mean it only really affects us, the great unwashed, when governments use it as a reason for cutting essential services, victimising the most vulnerable and selling off anything that's still publically owned. At the same time protecting big business and turning a blind eye to high level tax avoidance.
I'm sure it's much more complicated than that, someone of my limited intelligence couldn't possibly understand it fully.

A lot of that applies to Labour as much as the Tories. They continued to privatise (NHS privatisation increased dramatically under them for example), protected big business (pressurising the FSA to minimise banking regulations for example) and did absolutely nothing about tax avoidance.

To be honest I don't think there is really much between the two parties on a lot of this stuff. Most of it is just how people have somewhat outdated views of the two parties and the rest of it is just spin from the parties or their media supporters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, April 10, 2015, 20:26:37
A lot of that applies to Labour as much as the Tories. They continued to privatise (NHS privatisation increased dramatically under them for example), protected big business (pressurising the FSA to minimise banking regulations for example) and did absolutely nothing about tax avoidance.

To be honest I don't think there is really much between the two parties on a lot of this stuff. Most of it is just how people have somewhat outdated views of the two parties and the rest of it is just spin from the parties or their media supporters.
Absolutely. I've got no bias toward any of the main parties, I distrust them all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Friday, April 10, 2015, 20:32:03
How will Labour look out for the ordinary working people?

Under the current Tory government, someone earning £20k a year pays about £800 a year less in taxes now than 5 years ago and unemployment is currently down around 0.6m from 5 years ago. i'd have thought more take home pay and more jobs are the best thing any government could do.

A lot of that applies to Labour as much as the Tories. They continued to privatise (NHS privatisation increased dramatically under them for example), protected big business (pressurising the FSA to minimise banking regulations for example) and did absolutely nothing about tax avoidance.

To be honest I don't think there is really much between the two parties on a lot of this stuff. Most of it is just how people have somewhat outdated views of the two parties and the rest of it is just spin from the parties or their media supporters.
You are correct, the Labour Party is too far to the Right for my liking at the moment but they are more likely to do more for the average working person than the Tories.
People may pay a little less in tax on their pay due to the thresholds being raised but that doesn't compensate for the majority having no pay rises and also the hike in VAT by this Government.
As for unemployment, the figures are grossly misrepresented. The amount of people in zero hours contracts make the figures seem better than the reality.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 10, 2015, 21:18:34
Ah right, thanks for simplifying it for me. Just out of interest, when was the UK last in a no debt situation? Most countries run with debt, including Germany, Japan, The US, Canada.... The list goes on and on. It's not that important really, is it? I mean it only really affects us, the great unwashed, when governments use it as a reason for cutting essential services, victimising the most vulnerable and selling off anything that's still publically owned. At the same time protecting big business and turning a blind eye to high level tax avoidance.
I'm sure it's much more complicated than that, someone of my limited intelligence couldn't possibly understand it fully.

You seem to be confused between the trade deficit and the national debt.

The trade deficit can be closed by exporting more and importing less. (this is simplistic but clearly simplistic works).

The National debt, is a whole different kettle of fish. It needs sorting out sooner rather than later. We can't afford to increase it. We must start decreasing it. The sooner we pay less in interest on debts, the sooner we can pay more to our essential services.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, April 10, 2015, 21:23:37
How will Labour look out for the ordinary working people?

Under the current Tory government, someone earning £20k a year pays about £800 a year less in taxes now than 5 years ago and unemployment is currently down around 0.6m from 5 years ago. i'd have thought more take home pay and more jobs are the best thing any government could do.

A lot of that applies to Labour as much as the Tories. They continued to privatise (NHS privatisation increased dramatically under them for example), protected big business (pressurising the FSA to minimise banking regulations for example) and did absolutely nothing about tax avoidance.

To be honest I don't think there is really much between the two parties on a lot of this stuff. Most of it is just how people have somewhat outdated views of the two parties and the rest of it is just spin from the parties or their media supporters.
I thought it had been established that Labour privatised 4% of the NHS and the Tories only increased that to 6%? Labour - talking shite since inception...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, April 10, 2015, 23:14:43
You seem to be confused between the trade deficit and the national debt.

The trade deficit can be closed by exporting more and importing less. (this is simplistic but clearly simplistic works).

The National debt, is a whole different kettle of fish. It needs sorting out sooner rather than later. We can't afford to increase it. We must start decreasing it. The sooner we pay less in interest on debts, the sooner we can pay more to our essential services.
Not confusing anything. The countries I mentioned all have national debt, as do we. In fact our country has never not been in debt, going back as far as the Napoleonic Wars and beyond. I'd agree that it would make sense to reduce it, but it's the how I have a problem with. Billions of pounds in unpaid corporation tax, that successive governments seem to turn a blind eye to, would certainly help.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Saturday, April 11, 2015, 06:40:01
Not confusing anything. The countries I mentioned all have national debt, as do we. In fact our country has never not been in debt, going back as far as the Napoleonic Wars and beyond. I'd agree that it would make sense to reduce it, but it's the how I have a problem with. Billions of pounds in unpaid corporation tax, that successive governments seem to turn a blind eye to, would certainly help.
I don't disagree with any of that, especially the bit about corporation tax.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Saturday, April 11, 2015, 08:38:04
Like the political debate and there`s a Tory on board - whatever next......!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sippo on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 10:16:45
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B_a_OnZVAAATNSB.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 18:08:25
I love the simplistic "Labour run up debt and the Tories sort out the mess" argument that Cameron seems to still be peddling without anyone in the media even bothering to challenge it, and the uninformed or stupid (pick whichever label you think you deserve) that swallow it whole and regurgitate it in every political debate.

My favourite website is this one:

http://www.debtbombshell.com/britains-budget-deficit.htm

Which shows a graph making it pretty bloody clear that budget deficits under the Tories and Labour have been much of a muchness, fluctuating with the worldwide economic cycle of boom / recession rather than any tendencies towards financial prudence or ineptitude whoever it is that sits in number 11 might display. But then ignores the data and makes the argument that the main problem was Gordon Brown waving his credit card around.

This one shows pretty much the same thing in a bit more detail:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/oct/18/deficit-debt-government-borrowing-data

That's my entire adult life on that chart, and in that whole time there's been a balanced, or surplus budget 6 times, 4 of which have been with Gordon Brown as Chancellor.

Oh and don't be fooled by the reassuringly low looking deficits in the late 70's and 80's into thinking "oh but Thatcher at least didn't overspend too much". Bear in mind that table isn't showing deficit as a proportion of GDP but in actual £Billions.
Quarterly GDP in 1979 was only £45-50m. By 1993 (the biggest year of deficit under the Tories) it had grown to about £145m, and by 2005 (the biggest deficit year under Labour until the shit hit the fan in 2009) it was between £310m and £325m a quarter. As a proportion of GDP Tory deficits are MASSIVELY larger than Labours.

It all only goes really tits up when the crash hits in 2009 and tax revenues plummet whilst benefits costs rise, and the Tories "triumph" in reducing the deficit there is largely down to the weak, gradual but inevitable economic recovery.

Government debt ( and consumer debt for that matter) I'm afraid is not the product of wanton overspending, fiscal incompetence, or over generosity, it's a necessary function of market economics.

Globally a free market economy will always produce more goods and services than the world's population can afford to buy. After all if all firms paid us the value of the goods and services we provided, they wouldn't make a profit would they.

They've got to sell that shit somehow, and out of the kindness of their hearts they're prepared to lend us, and the state, the money to buy it all. Eventually that debt mountain gets so high everyone loses confidence it can ever be repaid, they all shit themselves, there's a run on banks and it either all collapses like in the 1920's or the more stable states wade in and prop it all up, based on even more fecking debt.

It can't go on like that forever of course but for the time being everyone just seems to be whistling and looking the other way when one of the props creaks, or are pretending they have a magic way to "fix capitalism".
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 20:29:34

That's my entire adult life on that chart, and in that whole time there's been a balanced, or surplus budget 6 times, 4 of which have been with Gordon Brown as Chancellor.
 

Those 4 times being when the international economy was booming...all that graph illustrates is that  our economy is very dependent upon the international situation.
 
I am somewhat surprised by the scale of deficit that was running 2002-2008 when one considers that was a booming period!

The graph actually illustrates how much the economy is dependent on matters way beyond the governments control. You complain about the Tory pushing the "Labour run up debt and the Tories sort out the mess", I am inclined to agree however is it any different to the argument at the last election that was "Labour was responsible for all these booming years and then the market collapsed, but that was nothing to do with us it was an international economy issue - they all want their bloody cake and eat it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 21:20:28
Sturgeon is bloody impressive again tonight, think she is a class act as a party leader

The Welsh bird mesmorises me every time she opens her mouth


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: SuggWillSugg MBE on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 21:21:46
Appears to be a ridiculous decision for Cameron to turn down being part of this debate. He's just made himself an easy target tonight.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 21:55:53
Appears to be a ridiculous decision for Cameron to turn down being part of this debate. He's just made himself an easy target tonight.

As a point of information, Clegg said he would have liked to debate.....but wasn't invited  :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 22:06:20
Appears to be a ridiculous decision for Cameron to turn down being part of this debate. He's just made himself an easy target tonight.

I think that was their plan, and in turn showing the people of England that the alternative to a Tory government, is a Labour/SNP/Green/Welsh coalition led by Sturgeon. A lot of people are saying how great she is but that will eventually turn in to concern when they realise she only cares about Scotland and will shit all over Miliband.

Still think the most likely outcome of the election is a shit storm for 6-12 months before we have to do it all again.

 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 22:23:21
What a shower of shit before the nation.
How on earth can any of those gain any respect I will never know.

Clever move by Cameron. Just sit back and watch.
Millipede is an absolute clueless muppet and would put the Country back in debt once again.
Talks without any substance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JoeMezz on Thursday, April 16, 2015, 22:40:34
Speak for many here, not convinced by any party. Having to pick the best from a very bad bunch is a sad state of affairs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, April 17, 2015, 00:36:29
Don't think chicken Dave was clever in not being involved in the debate. Quite the opposite I'd say. People will be asking why he refused to take part. The prime minister not showing up doesn't look good for him. I'm glad as it should help lose him votes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 17, 2015, 08:07:25
Millipede is an absolute clueless muppet and would put the Country back in debt once again.
The country's still in debt. Billions and billions of pounds of it. Has been since the Napoleonic wars and will likely remain so long after you or I are long gone. So no-one's going to put the country back in debt


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Friday, April 17, 2015, 08:44:50
Millipede is an absolute clueless muppet and would put the Country back in debt once again.
Talks without any substance.

I'll refer you to my post a page or so back, but you probably won't bother to read it. Why let annoying things like facts get in the way of your self righteous outrage after all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: dalumpimunki on Friday, April 17, 2015, 08:47:59
Those 4 times being when the international economy was booming...all that graph illustrates is that  our economy is very dependent upon the international situation.

That's pretty much the point I was making. The only difference in the two major parties is that when the Tories are in charge during a boom they hand out tax cuts to the wealthy rather than invest in public services, and when Labour are in the same situation they throw money at public services trying to patch up what the Tories left to rot when they were in charge.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, April 17, 2015, 09:15:16
That's pretty much the point I was making. The only difference in the two major parties is that when the Tories are in charge during a boom they hand out tax cuts to the wealthy rather than invest in public services, and when Labour are in the same situation they throw money at public services trying to patch up what the Tories left to rot when they were in charge.

And now you're the one ignoring the facts. The Tories cut taxes for everyone, the 20% basic rate is a Tory policy, started by Thatcher and then continued by successive governments (including Labour) - prior to Thatcher the tax rates were 33% and 83%. We've also had the increases in personal allowance over the last 5 years, which benefits the lowest earners the most. Labour on the other hand removed the 10% tax rate for the lowest earners and increased NI for everyone.

The Tory philosophy is to reduce taxes, putting money in to everyone's pockets so they can decide how to spend it.

Labour on the other hand increase taxes for everyone so they can increase public spending, thinking it's best the state decides on and controls spending.

Problem is the Tories go too far with cutting public spending whilst Labour go too far with increasing it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, April 17, 2015, 11:40:34
The Tory philosophy is to reduce taxes, putting money in to everyone's pockets so they can decide how to spend it.

One of the first things Osborne did was to increase VAT to 20%....having said previously there were no plans for an increase.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, April 17, 2015, 11:45:49
I thought the cuts in the starting threshold the coalition introduced were Lib Dem policy, not Tories? They cut taxes for their own, Labour raise taxes to spend on their own.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, April 17, 2015, 12:57:43
I see the repulsive IDS is at it again today regarding zero hour contracts. What a fucking wanker he is


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, April 17, 2015, 14:01:43
Sturgeon is bloody impressive again tonight, think she is a class act as a party leader

The Welsh bird mesmorises me every time she opens her mouth

Farage is getting bolder, making less attempt to hide the nationalist agenda - I suspect he is already aligning the party to be try and morph into the English equivalent of the SNP after the election to jump on the inevitable response to the large gains the SNP will make in Scotland and thus the idea that politics in England is being overly controlled by a Scottish party!

Natalie Bennett has got a bit of a temper on her really lost her rag at least once last night.

The fact that Sturgeon is coming across well is hardly surprising, it's a lot easier to perform in such events if you have essentially won your election already (as the polls show the SNP have) and thus are essentially preaching to the converted.

Finally I would agree with you regarding Leanne Wood's accent!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, April 17, 2015, 14:14:21
One of the first things Osborne did was to increase VAT to 20%....having said previously there were no plans for an increase.

The same way Labour promised no tax increases, then raised NI.

As I said though, the Tories reduce taxes to put money in your pocket to spend how you want. Not everything is subject to VAT giving you some choice as opposed to it being deducted directly from your pay packet.

I thought the cuts in the starting threshold the coalition introduced were Lib Dem policy, not Tories? They cut taxes for their own, Labour raise taxes to spend on their own.

It was a Lib Dem policy, but it took the Tories as well to implement it and balance the budgets. It's also now a Tory policy going forwards to increase it further. Even if you ignore it, they're still the party that reduces taxes and will continue to do as finances allow.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Monday, April 20, 2015, 18:05:27
That Nicola Sturgeon needs a good kick in the hole.

Whatever happened to English votes for English matters.

Keep your sweaty nose out.

We'll rue the day our 'politicians' campaigned to keep the Union


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Monday, April 20, 2015, 18:11:42
That Nicola Sturgeon needs a good kick in the hole.

Whatever happened to English votes for English matters.

Keep your sweaty nose out.

We'll rue the day our 'politicians' campaigned to keep the Union

Ha ha ha, brilliant to see Sturgeon stir it up. Good on her.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Monday, April 20, 2015, 18:34:14
We'll rue the day our 'politicians' campaigned to keep the Union

Did their appearances north of the border do any good? If anything it probably got the Yes campaign more votes every times the party leaders appeared to campaign for a No vote


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, April 20, 2015, 22:22:18
That Nicola Sturgeon needs a good kick in the hole.

Whatever happened to English votes for English matters.

Keep your sweaty nose out.

We'll rue the day our 'politicians' campaigned to keep the Union

If the UK can have a referendum on leaving the EU and the Scots can have a referendum on leaving the UK, why (oh why, oh why!) can we English not have a referendum on seceding.

We could leave the jocks to get their Barnett formula and other demands from a Celts-only UK rump and leave Plaid Cymru, DUP, Sinn Fein and SNP in their Utopian English-free state?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, April 25, 2015, 18:20:22
This is brilliant.  The Conservative candidate for Witney forgets which football team he's been a life-long fan of.

Independent: David Cameron Forgets if he's an Aston Villa or West Ham Fan (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/generalelection/general-election-2015-david-cameron-forgets-if-hes-an-aston-villa-or-west-ham-fan-10203685.html)

The main message here, of course, is that the likely winner of the Witney seat has absolutely no interest whatsoever in Oxford United.  (Although, to be fair, there are probably more Swindon fans living there than yellows anyway.)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Saturday, April 25, 2015, 18:26:55
This is brilliant.  The Conservative candidate for Witney forgets which football team he's been a life-long fan of.

Independent: David Cameron Forgets if he's an Aston Villa or West Ham Fan (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/generalelection/general-election-2015-david-cameron-forgets-if-hes-an-aston-villa-or-west-ham-fan-10203685.html)

The main message here, of course, is that the likely winner of the Witney seat has absolutely no interest whatsoever in Oxford United.  (Although, to be fair, there are probably more Swindon fans living there than yellows anyway.)

That prick is my MP


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 12:52:25
I've just found out that the Labour candidate in my constituency is a Swindon fan.  What were the odds of that?!

He'll never win, mind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 13:43:48
Not sure that it means anything for now, but my wife works in a large technical college, with over 2000 full time, day release and evening students of votable age. They are running an election poll, and bearing in mind its very multicultural, the current standings are surprising. She said there has been around 300 votes so far, and ukip are polling at 80%, the rest barely register. And this is in a Liberal safe seat. Go figure.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 14:11:38
With that high a following for UKIP that does upset me that so many people (especially the young electorate) are influenced by a few policies that they feel so strongly about but ignoring the bigger picture and probable damage that Farage could do to the country and economy if he gets into No 10.

Truly disappointing and disheartening.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Chubbs on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 14:15:48
With that high a following for UKIP that does upset me that so many people (especially the young electorate) are influenced by a few policies that they feel so strongly about but ignoring the bigger picture and probable damage that Farage could do to the country and economy if he gets into No 10.

Truly disappointing and disheartening.

I don't do politics but isn't that the case for all the parties? i highly doubt there is a party out there that someone argees with 100%


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 14:28:30
I don't do politics but isn't that the case for all the parties? i highly doubt there is a party out there that someone argees with 100%
I wouldnt have thought that 1 or 2 policies would be enough to get most peoples votes.

For me I can allow 1 or 2 policies that I don't agree with through the net and not stop me voting for a party (as long as I dont disagreee strongly with them) but to ignore 99% of all the other policies totally to get 1 or 2 that you do agree with is mental.

Just my personal opinion.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 14:59:45
The danger isn't UKIP winning an election by majority, that's certainly not going to happen (yet). The real danger is a vote for UKIP is most likely to put Labour back in power and I really don't think the economy is robust enough for the two Eds to dick around with.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 15:20:03
Not sure that it means anything for now, but my wife works in a large technical college, with over 2000 full time, day release and evening students of votable age. They are running an election poll, and bearing in mind its very multicultural, the current standings are surprising. She said there has been around 300 votes so far, and ukip are polling at 80%, the rest barely register. And this is in a Liberal safe seat. Go figure.

Most of those will not be registered to vote...there's something like a million young people disenfranchised, a situation not helped by the change in rules regarding registering.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 15:49:48
Quite possibly, but then again, there are a lot of apprentices, and a lot of mature students doing evening classes, so I think its an interesting outcome. Incidentally my daughters secondary school are doing the same excercise. And i'm sure though their opinions will alter a million times.. currently there the Greens are romping it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 16:07:20
Quite possibly, but then again, there are a lot of apprentices, and a lot of mature students doing evening classes, so I think its an interesting outcome. Incidentally my daughters secondary school are doing the same excercise. And i'm sure though their opinions will alter a million times.. currently there the Greens are romping it!

FE, is one of those sectors which is already experiencing cuts, especially in subject choice, I suspect this will continue whatever the outcome of the election, although the degree of cutting may vary.

Of the Tory education initiatives, I liked the UTC idea, to provide apprenticeship type courses for young people 14-19 in engineering etc, sadly some are already closing due to lack of interest from the kids.  I'd like to think the Swindon site will prove viable.

I suspect it won't be too long before Gove's folly in academies and free schools hits home, when the initial bribes run out, and the schools are leftto fend for themselves on dwindling central funding.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 16:28:22
Are Labour not fully supportive of Academies?  (In fact, I'm fairly sure they introduced them.)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 16:38:18
The academy program shows signs of slowing down in the south east, and there is a pretty even split between those moving to academy status and those moving into federations now, whereas it was fully tilted to academies a couple of years back. Academies started on the back of the aborted BSF new school buildings projects. Most as soon as they got the government funding quickly ditched the local authorities managing them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 16:53:31
Are Labour not fully supportive of Academies?  (In fact, I'm fairly sure they introduced them.)

Yes, Labour introduced sponsored academies, but Gove moved it on to more or less force all schools out of LEA control.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 18:35:41
Wouldn't worry about UKIP, they are projected to win 2-3 seats by the bookies.

A far more accurate method than the polls of predicting what will happen


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 18:59:57
It's been interesting quite how totally partisan some of the press are being on who to vote for - and who not to vote for. Can't remember it being quite so biased before.

Will it work though? To quote Mark Steel:

If the polls haven't changed by Friday, The front pages of The Sun, Mail and Telegraph will be "OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE JUST VOTE TORY YOU CUNTS"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 19:18:35
It's been interesting quite how totally partisan some of the press are being on who to vote for - and who not to vote for. Can't remember it being quite so biased before.

It has been ever thus....dating back to the Daily Mail's forging of the Zinoviev letter 4 days before the 1924 election, purporting to show that an incoming Labour administration would be the puppet of the Bolsheviks.

14 or so years later, they were backing Mosley and Ironside's mate.

The Sun this time is backing the SNP in its Scottish paper and the Tories in England :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 19:27:54
It has been ever thus....dating back to the Daily Mail's forging of the Zinoviev letter 4 days before the 1924 election, purporting to show that an incoming Labour administration would be the puppet of the Bolsheviks.

14 or so years later, they were backing Mosley and Ironside's mate.

The Sun this time is backing the SNP in its Scottish paper and the Tories in England :)

What is it about the Tories that multi-millionaire newspaper-owning, media moguls seem to like so much? Oh, wait ...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 20:51:39
See Harry Toffolo showing his (blue) colours on Twitter


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 20:58:08
See Harry Toffolo showing his (blue) colours on Twitter

Most footballers are, especially top end types. 

Sol Campbell is currently doing his bit for the Tories, because he's upset about the propsed Mansion Tax, biting into his 34 mill fortune.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Thursday, April 30, 2015, 21:08:19
Most footballers are, especially top end types. 

Sol Campbell is currently doing his bit for the Tories, because he's upset about the propsed Mansion Tax, biting into his 34 mill fortune.

I know, just think they would be wise not to publicise it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Monday, May 4, 2015, 20:55:30
The Independent have just backed another Tory/Lib coalition. That's a genuine surprise in an election campaign devoid of them so far.

It seems like Thursday's election is going to lead to either a weaker Tory/Lib coalition with very little if any Scottish MPs or a Labour/SNP horse trading agreement.

Think we may be heading for a second election later this year. Hopefully at least one party finds some new ideas from somewhere before then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 09:51:43
The Independent have just backed another Tory/Lib coalition. That's a genuine surprise in an election campaign devoid of them so far.

It seems like Thursday's election is going to lead to either a weaker Tory/Lib coalition with very little if any Scottish MPs or a Labour/SNP horse trading agreement.

Think we may be heading for a second election later this year. Hopefully at least one party finds some new ideas from somewhere before then.

I just read their op-ed too, and broadly agree with it. I'd really like a stronger balancing Liberal component next time round, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

My biggest worry about a Lab-SNP axis is that the SNP will have every interest in making themselves so obstructive at Westminster that it will polarise the national debate to such an extent that everyone will quickly want to cut Scotland adrift, which plays precisely to their agenda.

How one of the historically most stable unions in the world got into this mess so quickly reminds me of that expression about suicide: a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Be careful what you vote for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: NZrobin on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 11:04:11
From sitting miles away in New Zealand it looks like Britain is a total car crash waiting to happen... in fact it's already happened and there is a delayed reaction and denial of the current situation.

This was the case here in New Zealand until common sense became a possibility due to in a strong government that got into power. The government is a National party similar as to the Conservatives in Britain.

That said, I now do most of my business in Fiji and that the Country is really buzzing after a military coup some 6 years ago. For the record Fiji was divided by native Fijians 49% Fijian Indians 48% and others approximately 3%.

When the military took over in Fiji every Western power were totally critical and black listed Fiji for 4 / 5 years including Britain and its commonwealth members, USA, Australia and New Zealand.

Since then common sense has taken place where basically everyone in Fiji is supporting Fiji First.... No more division where there are cultural differences, racial unrest, mass corruption and the bullshit that comes about with the very rich, working class and the poor.

Yes, this now elected government is very much a left wing socialist favour

Why I am highlighting the present situation in Fiji and to a lesser part New Zealand is.... Basically, until Britain has a leader who has the mandate / power and the balls to deliver what Britain really needs to get back to reality including basic common sense and to get back to Britain First.

Britain is so divided and unmanageable...Basically you are all fucked  !!! 

Hope I don't sound like a little Austrian with a mustache as I don't mean too..

COYMR's  :)
 

         


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 11:17:46
I just read their op-ed too, and broadly agree with it. I'd really like a stronger balancing Liberal component next time round, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

My biggest worry about a Lab-SNP axis is that the SNP will have every interest in making themselves so obstructive at Westminster that it will polarise the national debate to such an extent that everyone will quickly want to cut Scotland adrift, which plays precisely to their agenda.

How one of the historically most stable unions in the world got into this mess so quickly reminds me of that expression about suicide: a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Be careful what you vote for.

Must admit I broadly agree with all the above.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 11:30:48
Must admit I broadly agree with all the above.

Have to say, I completely fail to see how any intelligent person would wish to see another Cameron/Clegg axis.  Both have shown that all they'll do anything necesary to cling to power.....Cameron, his Freudian slip about this being a super important election for his "career" interests, when he ws supposed to say country's.  Clegg fessing up he'll stomach an EU referendum, if it means getting his ministerial chauffeur back.

Clegg knows full well, that said referendum could prove disastrous for the UK....and should have nowt to do with it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 11:35:27
Have to say, I completely fail to see how any intelligent person would wish to see another Cameron/Clegg axis.  Both have shown that all they'll do anything necesary to cling to power.....Cameron, his Freudian slip about this being a super important election for his "career" interests, when he ws supposed to say country's.  Clegg fessing up he'll stomach an EU referendum, if it means getting his ministerial chauffeur back.

Clegg knows full well, that said referendum could prove disastrous for the UK....and should have nowt to do with it.

Fair dues, so what would be an ideal outcome for Chez Smeeton?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 11:56:59
Fair dues, so what would be an ideal outcome for Chez Smeeton?

I vote Labour to get a Labour government....but all the punditry and polls points to a close run thing, so at this point in time, it's let's wait until Friday to see how things look.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: NZrobin on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 12:04:42
Do you really think a coalition government could possibly work in Britain.

Cameron and Clegg have made a joke of this possibility.

Surely, only can see a very small minority (King maker) such as UKIP turn the country into a worst situation. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 13:14:29
Worst thing for me is that we've somehow managed to avoid there being a debate on the real issues.

Scottish independence hasn't been resolved and will continue to run and run. Exactly what does Scotland want to remain in the Union? How about moving to a federal style government? What do Wales and Northern Ireland want? What about England?

The EU, in or out? What exactly are the issues people have with the EU, can they be resolved?

The deficit. How quickly do we want to clear it, how much austerity can be tolerated and what should be cut. It's been portrayed as "Tory cuts" and "Labour spending", which totally misses the real issue that needs to be discussed.

No matter what Sturgeon says, her only goal is independence and she'll do whatever it takes to achieve it - including fucking over the rest of the UK. I wouldn't have an issue with a Labour government, but a Lab-SNP government will be a disaster.

Despite what the polls and experts say, I still reckon there will be a swing to the Tories on the day and we'll end up with another Tory-LibDem coalition, maybe with the DUP and UKIP on board in some form.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 14:06:03
You're very right jonny. The way the media have let all the main parties off the hook of actually discussing any of the main issues has been quite shocking.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 14:15:47
You're very right jonny. The way the media have let all the main parties off the hook of actually discussing any of the main issues has been quite shocking.

That's a good point Paul, and let me tell you why!

The whole 'campaign' has just been dominated by the personalities (I use that in its weakest form!)  and their painfully detailed media training!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 15:45:06
The Independent have just backed another Tory/Lib coalition. That's a genuine surprise in an election campaign devoid of them so far.

Might that be something to do with the owner, Evgeny Lebedev, being a billionaire friend of Boris Johnson? 

What could possibly lead the Independent to dislike the top-rate-tax-rising, non-dom-abolishing, mansion-taxing Labour Party I wonder...??


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 21:21:09
Worst thing for me is that we've somehow managed to avoid there being a debate on the real issues.

Scottish independence hasn't been resolved and will continue to run and run. Exactly what does Scotland want to remain in the Union? How about moving to a federal style government? What do Wales and Northern Ireland want? What about England?

The EU, in or out? What exactly are the issues people have with the EU, can they be resolved?

The deficit. How quickly do we want to clear it, how much austerity can be tolerated and what should be cut. It's been portrayed as "Tory cuts" and "Labour spending", which totally misses the real issue that needs to be discussed.

No matter what Sturgeon says, her only goal is independence and she'll do whatever it takes to achieve it - including fucking over the rest of the UK. I wouldn't have an issue with a Labour government, but a Lab-SNP government will be a disaster.

Despite what the polls and experts say, I still reckon there will be a swing to the Tories on the day and we'll end up with another Tory-LibDem coalition, maybe with the DUP and UKIP on board in some form.

Everything that the SNP do at Westminster with their block of 50+ MPs will be calibrated to cause division and further the cause of Scottish independence.  If they form part of a government, they will extract concessions from the senior party in government (ie Labour) in a manner that would cause (or add to) friction between the different parts of the UK.  And if they are frozen out of government, they will attack the legitimacy of the government in Scotland (which is actually a point I would have some sympathy with).

The chances of Scottish separation within the next 5 to 10 years are fairly high now, I would think.  But the idea of a UK break up doesn't seem as shocking now as it used to.  The issue has barely been out of the news for the last couple of years.  We'd all move on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 21:21:55
I still don't know who I'm voting for, by the way.  Any more 'undecideds' out there?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 21:26:25
Still undecided here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 21:28:05
I think I'm going to spoil my ballot paper.

My opinion is I think the Tories would probably do the best job of all the serious contenders. But I can't bring myself to vote for some of their policies.

Labour I reckon have a fairly high chance of fucking the recovery. Ed Balls for fucks sake.

Greens are, well, you know.

UKIP are also, well, you know.

There is nobody else standing.

Oh wait, forgot the Lib Dems. I voted for them last time, they bent over and took it up the arse. Will never vote for them again for dropping the key tuition fee promise.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 21:33:29
Still fairly undecided. Won't be voting UKIP but could potentially vote for the other four (although pretty unlikely to be the Tories, I agree with about 80% of what they do but I disagree so strongly with the other 20% I don't think I can vote for them, plus their candidate in Bath is pretty uninspiring).

Bath is a Lib Dem safe-ish seat (in as much as anything is safe Lib Dem these days) but it's a new guy standing and he seems fairly unremarkable. I probably agree with more Lib Dem policies than any other party, but think they got fairly little out of the last coalition (certainly considering what the SNP would want from Labour this time round).

Labour poll like 5% here, are standing a child as a candidate, and will probably lose to the Greens, who I might vote for on the grounds that their heart is in the right place even if they'd be a disaster running anything and it might at least prompt the other parties to consider some of their better policies.

Oh, and there's an independent candidate who seems quite could but has as much chance of winning as I do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 21:40:42
I'm still not 100% sure.

Bristol South has been Labour since 1935 but the ever narrowing gap and the recent significant gentrification of some areas mean that the Lib Dems (and maybe Greens) have a good chance of getting in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 22:13:56
Never voted for them before but this time round I'll be voting Tory, they and the Lib Dems have done a good job in last five years and the fact they're struggling so much in the election goes to show how poorly they've campaigned. They should have walked this against the party that got us into this mess. Miliband wouldn't even accept labour over spent last time around, how can we trust him to make the necessary decision if he did get back. It'd mean putting the economy into reverse.

Conversely it'll be great to see the SNP a do so well North of the border, Scottish Labour have had it coming up there!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 22:25:13
Tories =bedroom tax


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 22:35:14
So what did great things did labour give us during their last tenure?  :sherlock:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 22:46:22
Tory wankers have spent massively and bought out the big guns in Chippenham.  Boris, Gideon and Spamface have all visited, fortunately whilst Ive been away working.   They have also marshalled every ounce of fear and hatred they can through bullshit in their mates shitty media outlets to scare the small minded.

As a result they will win and I can vote he way I want to, not tactically, knowing it will have piss all effect on the final result.

Me and the 3 other lefties in Chippenham can then spend 5 years being being smug but depressed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 23:04:22
So what did great things did labour give us during their last tenure?  :sherlock:

Don't know about you but for starters I enjoyed the longest period of sustained, stable economic growth the country has ever known - prior to the global banking crisis.

In contrast, I've been made redundant twice in the last three years, never mind received a wage rise, seen child benefit disappear and had bitter first hand experience of Tory / Lib cuts in education, with far worse to come and local indifference and even obstruction to kids being able to participate in sport.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 23:06:42
Similar to the economic growth of the 70's?

You'll find the growth you are talking about was globally driven, wouldn't have mattered who was in power.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 23:11:16
Yeah labour did a great job of spend spend spend, and let someone else pick up the tab. Nothing left in the account by the time the con/libs got to power, no wonder they had to tighten the belts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 23:17:52
Tightening the belts isn't so much the issue if we're all tightening our belts. How many people have to be fucked over by the bedroom tax for cunts like Gary Barlow to avoid tax. how many local services need to be cut for Starbucks to pay fuck all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 23:24:12
How much tax has Starbucks and others been avoiding since the 1990's? Or have they only been dodging since Cameron got into no.10?

I'm not arguing Tories are wonderful and labour aren't, however I do prefer to have the Tories run the country, which is why I'll be voting for Gray.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 23:30:16
....Cameron, his Freudian slip about this being a super important election for his "career" interests, when he ws supposed to say country's.

Against my better nature, I have to disagree.  

Cameron in person is hugely likeable and massively charismatic, and is desperate to get out of the tiresome political arena and into light entertainment.  He's wasted as PM!  He sees himself as a cross between the re-invented Portillo and Ant or Dec, cracking jokes on a train towards the jungle on a Saturday TV teatime coming soon.    That way he stays one step ahead of that conceited blond clown, securing a place as the nation's sweetheart, and becoming either Brucie or Des Lynam, depending on Rupert's puppet plans for him.

Please help David find his vocation, follow his dreams and don't make him do all this again...after all, this is such an important election for his career prospects.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 23:41:48
You'll find the growth you are talking about was globally driven, wouldn't have mattered who was in power.
Yeah right, and the crash of course was a purely localised Labour driven catastrophe?

Yeah labour did a great job of spend spend spend, and let someone else pick up the tab. Nothing left in the account by the time the con/libs got to power, no wonder they had to tighten the belts.
Show me how Conservative spending policy at the time was different...I think it's been done to death that the issue was in not regulating banks rather than over-spending per se...and there was a fag paper between the two main parties on both.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, May 5, 2015, 23:49:10
What are you on about?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 06:27:02
Yeah labour did a great job of spend spend spend, and let someone else pick up the tab. Nothing left in the account by the time the con/libs got to power, no wonder they had to tighten the belts.


Every time labour leave office they leave a cluster fcuk of finanancial chaos, which with remarkable coincidence the conservatives have to sort out when they get office and 13 years of spend, spend, spend take more than 5 years to turn around.

It is well known that poverty actually increased under labour. It is a well known fact that labour created hundreds of thousands on non jobs in local government. It is well known fact that the NHS, local and national government departments waste millions and millions every year.

I'm not driven by the politics of envy and hatred like the left seem to be. I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination. But let me tell you this. The rich got richer under labour. Labour wasted eye watering amounts of money over 13 years. Labour spent eye watering amounts of money over 13 years. Labour borrowed eye watering amounts of money over 13 years. Labour have saddled us tax payers and our kids with 30,40,50 year PFI debts so skewed in the favour of the filthy rich corporations and their shareholders that it beggars belief.

Don't fcuking make me laugh over the bedroom tax. You'd think the streets and gutters are filled with the elderly and disabled thrown out of their homes because they cannot pay a tax that is not a tax. I accept that there will always be exceptions to the rule. Which is a bit rich of the Labour Party who do love a tax. You do not rent a house with more rooms than you need or can afford, except in the public sector which has been starved of new housing stock and has waiting lists running into years and years. Why? Because labour did not fcuking build enough houses for their core voting support in 13 years. On top of allowing unfettered migration into this country every year running into the 100's of thousands who low and behold need........somewhere to live! They then inturn fall into the clutches of unscrupulous landlords sub letting council and housing ass property along with private landlords.

Life is a bed of roses under labour. As a working class bloke with kids I'd lick the skin off your poo rather than vote labour. It's bad enough this country is hamstrung by that lame duck bunch on the other side of the English Channel, having five years of this countries hard working people being mugged each way they turn by labour the SNP, plaid Cymru & the Lib dems. God help us.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 06:40:22
Yeah right, and the crash of course was a purely localised Labour driven catastrophe?
Show me how Conservative spending policy at the time was different...I think it's been done to death that the issue was in not regulating banks rather than over-spending per se...and there was a fag paper between the two main parties on both.

yes the fact the labour govt spent all the money was the Tories fault, silly me.

As was the lack of banking regulation. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14888933

Again the point to make here is labour and Tories both make mistakes, similar mistakes. But we have a choice either let a party who have a decent economic plan to continue their work, or lets all go back to square one and let them spend again. It's like giving a person with debt issues your credit card, a person who doesn't admit that they spent too much previously. Good luck with that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 07:03:11
Yes labour spent a lot of money, they completely pulled the nhs from its knees and turned it into the best healthcare system (that works for everyone) in the world, they put money into schools, sure start centres, housed the homeless, and people prospered. Does anyone remember just how shit this country was pre 1997?? They got things wrong, and the eu led to mass immigration, the banks fucked up because of American sub prime mortgages.

The Tories want to privatize the nhs and demolish the welfare state. There will be homeless people dying on our streets like America if they get in again, while millionaires pay no tax. Any working class person who votes for them betrays their own class. There are a lot of morons believing the right wing propaganda machine, it would be funny if it wasn't so fucking tragic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 07:14:10
"Long term economic plan" and "EU Referendum" are not compatible statements. Whether you are pro, anti or indifferent to our membership, the two years of uncertainty leading up to a vote will be stressful for our economy, at a time where the base rate remains at an all time low and our inflation is entirely at the mercy of oil prices.

The Tories will not be a safe economic bet, half their pledges (including NHS money) are unfunded gambles on some super recovery, which as I have alluded to above is far from certain.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 07:28:55
I still have't received my polling card. Is being on the electoral roll different from registering to vote? Have I left it too late now?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 07:32:48
Never voted Labour in my life but I would rather support Oxford than vote Tory.

Doesn't matter who gets in we are all fucked and anybody who says different is deluded.

Makes no odds to me .... I live in Calne and a headless chimp would get in if it has a blue Rosette pinned on its chest. 'It's better to be fucked up the arse with a red hot poker by the Tories, because if Labour got in, I would have three hot pokers!".

Blaming Labour (who I'm not keen on) for a global economic meltdown is amusing.....it was Browns fault that America, Greece and Japan etc etc all went to rat shit!? IMO it was not.

Capitalism IS a failed system of boom and then bust (I wouldn't want to live in any other) so whoever is in power (Tories in the 90s, that everyone seems to have forgotten) gets to carry the can.

It's going to be a hung parliament for sure. I just hope that people get out and vote because I think everyone is fucked off with the attacks and lies and very little substance.

The lack of tax being paid by big corporations really concerns me and my hope whoever gets in will address this.......I think my hope will be in vain.

These words are just my opinion....so I'm not right or wrong...just like everyone else on here, we are all different and we get a vote to 'speak' how we feel.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 07:33:25
I still have't received my polling card. Is being on the electoral roll different from registering to vote? Have I left it too late now?

You'd only waste it on some lentil knitter....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jimbob on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 07:44:23
Tickbox.org.uk for the undecided


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 07:56:31
Yes labour spent a lot of money, they completely pulled the nhs from its knees and turned it into the best healthcare system (that works for everyone) in the world, they put money into schools, sure start centres, housed the homeless, and people prospered. Does anyone remember just how shit this country was pre 1997?? They got things wrong, and the eu led to mass immigration, the banks fucked up because of American sub prime mortgages.

The Tories want to privatize the nhs and demolish the welfare state. There will be homeless people dying on our streets like America if they get in again, while millionaires pay no tax. Any working class person who votes for them betrays their own class. There are a lot of morons believing the right wing propaganda machine, it would be funny if it wasn't so fucking tragic.

The Labour party, without being perfect, seeks to act in the interests of the whole country and all its people, the weak as well as the strong, in a way that the Tories rarely do. The key swing voters are people who basically support those Labour principles but sometimes vote Tory not out of conviction but out of fear that the Labour party are not a credible alternative government.   Every rant, even on a tiny website, that portrays the Labour party as faultless (when they clearly aren't) and Tories as psychopathic monsters intent on destroying everyone who didn't go to Eton, contributes to that lack of credibility.

The morons aren't the working class Tory voters, it's the idiot section of the Labour Party with their absurdly overblown and insulting rhetoric.  The irony is that it's the very people who arrogantly believe that only they represent the true heart of the labour movement that in reality fatally undermine it.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 08:40:53
Never voted Labour in my life but I would rather support Oxford than vote Tory.

Doesn't matter who gets in we are all fucked and anybody who says different is deluded.

Makes no odds to me .... I live in Calne and a headless chimp would get in if it has a blue Rosette pinned on its chest. 'It's better to be fucked up the arse with a red hot poker by the Tories, because if Labour got in, I would have three hot pokers!".

Blaming Labour (who I'm not keen on) for a global economic meltdown is amusing.....it was Browns fault that America, Greece and Japan etc etc all went to rat shit!? IMO it was not.

Capitalism IS a failed system of boom and then bust (I wouldn't want to live in any other) so whoever is in power (Tories in the 90s, that everyone seems to have forgotten) gets to carry the can.

It's going to be a hung parliament for sure. I just hope that people get out and vote because I think everyone is fucked off with the attacks and lies and very little substance.

The lack of tax being paid by big corporations really concerns me and my hope whoever gets in will address this.......I think my hope will be in vain.

These words are just my opinion....so I'm not right or wrong...just like everyone else on here, we are all different and we get a vote to 'speak' how we feel.


This.

Although down here in one of the Liberals strongest constituancies a vote for labour would be a wasted vote as the tories have ran David Laws and before him Paddy Ashdown close a few times.

So I have little choice but to vote Liberal as a tactical vote of keeping the Tories out of Yeovil and South Somerset.

I do not like to tactically vote but if it means keeping the Conservatives out then so be it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 09:07:10
The amount of tactical voting being considered on here is eye opening.  I can see a renewed - and a much more emphatic - push for Proportional Representation once the dust has settled.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 09:17:46
The amount of tactical voting being considered on here is eye opening.  I can see a renewed - and a much more emphatic - push for Proportional Representation once the dust has settled.

Its a minefield though, to tactically vote I would have to vote for one of the big two and I am not sure I can bring myself to do that!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 09:35:04
Never voted Labour in my life but I would rather support Oxford than vote Tory.

Doesn't matter who gets in we are all fucked and anybody who says different is deluded.

Makes no odds to me .... I live in Calne and a headless chimp would get in if it has a blue Rosette pinned on its chest. 'It's better to be fucked up the arse with a red hot poker by the Tories, because if Labour got in, I would have three hot pokers!".

Blaming Labour (who I'm not keen on) for a global economic meltdown is amusing.....it was Browns fault that America, Greece and Japan etc etc all went to rat shit!? IMO it was not.

Capitalism IS a failed system of boom and then bust (I wouldn't want to live in any other) so whoever is in power (Tories in the 90s, that everyone seems to have forgotten) gets to carry the can.

It's going to be a hung parliament for sure. I just hope that people get out and vote because I think everyone is fucked off with the attacks and lies and very little substance.

The lack of tax being paid by big corporations really concerns me and my hope whoever gets in will address this.......I think my hope will be in vain.

These words are just my opinion....so I'm not right or wrong...just like everyone else on here, we are all different and we get a vote to 'speak' how we feel.



I don't think many directly blame Labour for the meltdown, however it grates somewhat when they bang on about the Tories not regulating banking and tax matters when they had equally opportunity to sort the issue between 1997-2010 and chose not to - so the banking crash was a global not Labour issue, however the boom before that was also a global not Labour driven boom yet they try to take credit for that bit.

Equally for every Royal Mail, you have selling off the gold at the bottom of the market etc, etc etc - politics is cyclical - the interesting thing here is that the SNP and others have rolled up and upset the apple cart!

The NHS is an interesting one, the privitisation of elements started under the last government as did the rush to PFI which has left the whole system financially hamstrung for the next 20-30 years. I am not convinced that even the Tories would have had the balls to start that process, however as it was commenced under their predecessors they have grasped the bullet to drive it forward and adapt to their ideology, having had dealings directly with the NHS over the last year is is a bloody mess, I just don't accept that the only solution is to throw more money at it, it needs a proper (and entirely independent) review by people who know what they are doing and not dulled by political ideology of any colour.

Until recently my Father lived in France and had quite serious back trouble, saw doctor, MRI 2 days later and operation within a fortnight! His friend lives in Oxfordshire with same trouble - took 18 months for MRI and consultant appointment! People rightly point out that in France its an insurance system, but people also forget its supposed to be a state run insurance system here - National Insurance! We need to stop thinking the NHS is a scared cow, allowing it to be used as a pawn within political debate instead coming up with something that works in the 21st century!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 09:49:15
One of the biggest problems with the NHS, is like almost everything in the public sector, there's a total lack of accountability and it appears no one actually watches where the money is going.

For instance, I have something prescribed which costs £250 every 6 months + £8 a day. I won't describe these items but if you saw them your eyes would water at how they couldn't cost anymore than £2-£3 + 50p respectively. The company that provides them encourages me to use it more. They even send me more shit, paid for by the NHS, without asking.

Everyone involved in it from top to bottom, apart from GPs, has said, in a manner of speaking, "it might be expensive, but you're not paying for it." Well, I fucking am. My taxes cunting well pay for it, and I'll be damned if I'm lining some cunt's pockets because they deem it should be used a certain way and believe it should be priced that high without question. I have a feeling the fact in a year I've only used £362 of goods, yet have been posted another £100+ on top (still unused) will start to cause problems.

People need to stop treating these things like a free for all buffet, and be a bit more conscientious. We're a huge part of the problem, and the mates of various politicians that have the hands in the cookie jars are even worse. The public sector's waste, lack of accountability and open cheque book makes my blood boil.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 09:53:49
We need to stop thinking the NHS is a scared cow, allowing it to be used as a pawn within political debate instead coming up with something that works in the 21st century!

This same should also apply to education which becomes a football every 5 years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Leggett on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 10:01:24
Tickbox.org.uk for the undecided

that's just confirmed what I suspected. That'll do!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 10:27:00
When you go to a pharmacy to pick up your prescription you should be asked if you pay for your prescription.

If you say no, you SHOULD provide a card showinf you are exempt.

Should be NO CARD. NO MEDICINE but people just say no pay, tick a box saying under what rule they are exempt knowing the chances of anyone checking whether this is true or not is minute.

You would not believe the amount of medicine that is sent back 'home' to relatives.

It's a scandal


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 10:39:52
Some of today's front pages.  So much for a free press.

Why is it that the multi-billionaire owners of these newspapers openly hate the top-rate-tax-rising, non-dom-abolishing, mansion-taxing, Leveson-supporting Labour party...

Just cannot understand why any normal, working person would vote Tory over any of the alternatives.


Title: Re:
Post by: Honkytonk on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 11:59:08
As far as drug companies go they are hugely exploitative of the NHS. In exactly the same manner that arms manufacturers are exploitative of government contracts. We should do a China and go 'fuck you' to the big companies and just copy their shit for use in the NHS so we can make it ourselves at a fraction of the cost. If they complain about how sick people are getting better for free instead of lining their pockets well then fuck 'em. The government in general really needs to take a stand against big businesses operating with no moral compass or interest in the national good.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 12:30:44
Some of today's front pages.  So much for a free press.

Why is it that the multi-billionaire owners of these newspapers openly hate the top-rate-tax-rising, non-dom-abolishing, mansion-taxing, Leveson-supporting Labour party...

Just cannot understand why any normal, working person would vote Tory over any of the alternatives.

Has there ever been a 'free' press in this or any country, whenever the media is privately owned its angles will reflect the position of the owners, who often reflect and follow the direction their readership were following.

Nothing has changed and rightly or wrongly I don't recall there being this outcry from the left between 1997 and 2010 when Labour were on good terms with News International and such luminaries as the Sun were coming out and supporting Blair.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 12:50:04
Nothing has changed and rightly or wrongly I don't recall there being this outcry from the left between 1997 and 2010 when Labour were on good terms with News International and such luminaries as the Sun were coming out and supporting Blair.
There was plenty from the Left, who were deeply critical of Blair, especially over the war and privatisation of the NHS, just not from New Labour. Don't confuse the two.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 12:52:30
There was plenty from the Left, who were deeply critical of Blair, especially over the war and privatisation of the NHS, just not from New Labour. Don't confuse the two.

But hang on, weren't New Labour (are they just Labour now?) the left...  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 13:10:09
But hang on, weren't New Labour (are they just Labour now?) the left...  ;)
No. That was the whole point of New Labour. Don't want to get into the SNP debate but one of the (probably few) things they have got right is calling New Labour "Red Tories"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 13:21:01
No. That was the whole point of New Labour. Don't want to get into the SNP debate but one of the (probably few) things they have got right is calling New Labour "Red Tories"

I am interested in this, considering that the present 'Labour' is led by the rump of the former Blair lead government where do you think they stand now?

I am not stirring, genuinely interested what you think as I get the impression that they are stuck in some manner of political limbo of trying to distance themselves from Blair whilst also realising that 'New' Labour made them mainstream and electable?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 13:26:50
No. That was the whole point of New Labour. Don't want to get into the SNP debate but one of the (probably few) things they have got right is calling New Labour "Red Tories"

Labour currently occupies the territory of 50's/60s/ early 70's One Nation Tories.  Edward Heath would probably join the present day Labour Party...

The current SNP manifesto, doesn't look too dissimilar to Labour's 83 manifesto, which offered the abandoning of nuclear weapons.

The current Tory party ideology is the sort of laissez-faire beloved of the Liberal, William Ewart Gladstone.  It was Gladstone's opponent Disraeli, who made the first tentative moves towards One Nation Conservatism.

Fuck knows what Lib dems think...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 14:38:38
Every time labour leave office they leave a cluster fcuk of finanancial chaos, which with remarkable coincidence the conservatives have to sort out when they get office and 13 years of spend, spend, spend take more than 5 years to turn around.

It is well known that poverty actually increased under labour. It is a well known fact that labour created hundreds of thousands on non jobs in local government. It is well known fact that the NHS, local and national government departments waste millions and millions every year.

I'm not driven by the politics of envy and hatred like the left seem to be. I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination. But let me tell you this. The rich got richer under labour. Labour wasted eye watering amounts of money over 13 years. Labour spent eye watering amounts of money over 13 years. Labour borrowed eye watering amounts of money over 13 years. Labour have saddled us tax payers and our kids with 30,40,50 year PFI debts so skewed in the favour of the filthy rich corporations and their shareholders that it beggars belief.

Don't fcuking make me laugh over the bedroom tax. You'd think the streets and gutters are filled with the elderly and disabled thrown out of their homes because they cannot pay a tax that is not a tax. I accept that there will always be exceptions to the rule. Which is a bit rich of the Labour Party who do love a tax. You do not rent a house with more rooms than you need or can afford, except in the public sector which has been starved of new housing stock and has waiting lists running into years and years. Why? Because labour did not fcuking build enough houses for their core voting support in 13 years. On top of allowing unfettered migration into this country every year running into the 100's of thousands who low and behold need........somewhere to live! They then inturn fall into the clutches of unscrupulous landlords sub letting council and housing ass property along with private landlords.

Life is a bed of roses under labour. As a working class bloke with kids I'd lick the skin off your poo rather than vote labour. It's bad enough this country is hamstrung by that lame duck bunch on the other side of the English Channel, having five years of this countries hard working people being mugged each way they turn by labour the SNP, plaid Cymru & the Lib dems. God help us.


Some people on here spout a load of bollocks. You are a complete fucking idiot. Nothing you say is backed up by fact, it's all that you read in the right wing press. This Tory government has borrowed more in the last 5 years than Labour did in 13 years but hey why let facts get in the way of reality. You have been taken in by the right wing press and all the shit and lies it tells you. When Labour came to power in 1997 the deficit was higher than the deficit in 2010 when the Tories came in and most of the deficit in 2010 was caused globally by bailing out the banks - not the government. or do you think Labour were to blame for the crashes in Europe, America and Japan.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 15:17:38
Some people on here spout a load of bollocks. You are a complete fucking idiot. Nothing you say is backed up by fact, it's all that you read in the right wing press. This Tory government has borrowed more in the last 5 years than Labour did in 13 years but hey why let facts get in the way of reality. You have been taken in by the right wing press and all the shit and lies it tells you.

Maybe you've been taken in by the left-wing press? Just because you believe the opposite doesn't mean everyone else is an idiot. For each side's arguments, there's more evidence than you can shake a stick at supporting their opinion. The fact is if it vindicates a person's bias it's obviously correct.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 15:43:25
Maybe you've been taken in by the left-wing press? Just because you believe the opposite doesn't mean everyone else is an idiot. For each side's arguments, there's more evidence than you can shake a stick at supporting their opinion. The fact is if it vindicates a person's bias it's obviously correct.

Like all politics depends who you choose to believe, Robert Peston has an interesting analysis of it at - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32549892


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 16:03:05
Fuck the lot of them.

They are all in hock to various paymasters - business or the unions - but if those fucking SNP MPs end up with a say in things I predict a riot.

Should have jettisoned the sweaties while we had the chance


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 16:05:37
Unfortunately all the politicos from down here went up to scotland like some jilted lover to beg em to stay.  And now spamface after begging them to stay is saying they're the devil.  Make your mind up tosspot.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 16:58:49
Fuck the lot of them.

They are all in hock to various paymasters - business or the unions - but if those fucking SNP MPs end up with a say in things I predict a riot.

Should have jettisoned the sweaties while we had the chance

As elected representatives, why should they not have a say?  I agree that they should not have a say on devolved matters (ie the well-worn West Lothian question/conundrum).  But on matters not devolved to the Scottish Assembley, surely they will have as much right as any other MP to direct policy?

Cameron needs to make his mind up.  Either he's a unionist, or he's not.  The Scots were told repeatedly - by Cameron and others - in the build up to the referendum last September that they were valued members of the union who should help shape the UK.  Like it or not, many of them are voting SNP precisely in order to make themselves heard.  So which is it?  Dave is flip-flopping big time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 17:10:35
So why didn't the fuckers vote YES in the referendum and do us all a favour?

If they're going to return wall to wall SNP MPs they obviously didn't have the bollocks to sever ties with the old nanny.

Shaggers


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 17:21:30
So why didn't the fuckers vote YES in the referendum and do us all a favour?

If they're going to return wall to wall SNP MPs they obviously didn't have the bollocks to sever ties with the old nanny.

Shaggers

At the time of the referendum, there were all sorts of promises from Cameron, and to be fair it was a result of the last minute Brown led intervention, about Devo Max.  Cameron promptly reneged, and raised the flag of English nationalism for party convenience, with his attempt to shaft Labour, over having Scottish MP's.....he will now in some form or other pay the price....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 17:23:50
And so shall we


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 17:24:10
Because they're using their votes in a way that ensures they get heard at Westminster.  The population of Yes voters will resemble that for SNP voters, but does not coincide precisely.  While it looks as if 50%+ are going to vote SNP in Scotland, I would be surprised if that translated to a Yes vote if there was another Yes/No referendum held tomorrow.

The SNP have been very open about wanting to shake things up at Westminster, and a majority of Scots appear to want that as well.  For what it's worth, plenty down here are in favour of a shake up as well; but, unfortunately, we don't have an 'SNP' to vote for.  (Some would place UKIP in that category, but their campaign never got off the ground.)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 17:27:45
If there were to ever be an English National Party they would be branded right wing racists.

It's OK for these poxy hanger-on countries to play the nationalism card but woe betide if we English did the same.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 17:43:33
...and the reason for that, quite clearly, is that there is massive asymmetry in the UK.  There are 10 of us (assuming, like me, that you're English) to every one of them.  It's a problem, because Scots (and Welsh and Northern Irish) can quite justifiably claim to having their wishes over-ridden almost all of the time by the English.  And that's yet another reason why so many Scots are now getting excited by the prospect that they're going to be HEARD.  At last!

My own personal solution to the problem - which I know would not be welcomed by everyone - is to federalise the UK.  But not purely along national (England, Scotland, Wales, NI) lines, because that would not deal with the asymmetry problem.  You would also have to regionalise England in to units roughly equal in size to Scotland...and the EU has already done that for us:

(http://www.europarl.org.uk/resource/static/images/MEPs/mep_map.gif)

In a UK Federal Parliament, representatives from Scotland would be able to find common cause on many issues with representatives from the more left-leaning regions of England.  And they would not feel outvoted on everything by a block of 54 million English voters.  A lot of English voters would not like the regionalisation, I know.  But I think something like this needs to happen if the union is going to continue.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 17:52:15
^

You've left out Gibraltar, which is part of the South West. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 18:22:13
So why didn't the fuckers vote YES in the referendum and do us all a favour?

If they're going to return wall to wall SNP MPs they obviously didn't have the bollocks to sever ties with the old nanny.

Shaggers

Fucking hell are you that thick that you can't separate the independance vote and voting SNP at the GE.

Fair play to Ardiles for putting some effort into his thinking.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Hammer on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 18:37:16
Fucking hell are you that thick that you can't spell independance

 

Independence. It's independence.

Sorted for you Audrey.      :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 18:46:35
...and the reason for that, quite clearly, is that there is massive asymmetry in the UK.  There are 10 of us (assuming, like me, that you're English) to every one of them.  It's a problem, because Scots (and Welsh and Northern Irish) can quite justifiably claim to having their wishes over-ridden almost all of the time by the English.  And that's yet another reason why so many Scots are now getting excited by the prospect that they're going to be HEARD.  At last!

My own personal solution to the problem - which I know would not be welcomed by everyone - is to federalise the UK.  But not purely along national (England, Scotland, Wales, NI) lines, because that would not deal with the asymmetry problem.  You would also have to regionalise England in to units roughly equal in size to Scotland...and the EU has already done that for us:

(http://www.europarl.org.uk/resource/static/images/MEPs/mep_map.gif)

In a UK Federal Parliament, representatives from Scotland would be able to find common cause on many issues with representatives from the more left-leaning regions of England.  And they would not feel outvoted on everything by a block of 54 million English voters.  A lot of English voters would not like the regionalisation, I know.  But I think something like this needs to happen if the union is going to continue.

Best post of the debate to date. Who said nothing good comes from the EU? (Which is, incidentally, one reason why this will probably never be adopted…)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 18:48:23
Cameron needs to make his mind up.  Either he's a unionist, or he's not.  The Scots were told repeatedly - by Cameron and others - in the build up to the referendum last September that they were valued members of the union who should help shape the UK.  Like it or not, many of them are voting SNP precisely in order to make themselves heard.  So which is it?  Dave is flip-flopping big time.

At the time of the referendum, there were all sorts of promises from Cameron, and to be fair it was a result of the last minute Brown led intervention, about Devo Max.  Cameron promptly reneged, and raised the flag of English nationalism for party convenience, with his attempt to shaft Labour, over having Scottish MP's.....he will now in some form or other pay the price....

Did I miss something? How did Cameron renege on the deal that was offered to Scotland? How is he flip-flopping?

The SNP are the ones that reneged, they made it clear the referendum was a once in a generation opportunity, yet within minutes of them losing they were already working on other ways to gain independence asap.

His opposition to the SNP and them having a place in government is that they are anti-Union and their sole interest in being part of a Labour led coalition is to break up the Union. Don't see how him being anti-SNP means he's against Scottish people having a voice, or even Scottish MP's being part of government.

The only way I can see us preventing a break up of the Union is going federal, but unfortunately neither Labour or the Tories are interested in that option.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 18:52:15
The only way I can see us preventing a break up of the Union is going federal, but unfortunately neither Labour or the Tories are interested in that option.

Yet. As you yourself pointed out (and Harold Wilson before you), a week is a long time in politics.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 19:33:40
BBC journo on radio 4 in swindon tonight.

To Merlin Landlord: "Who do you think will win tomorrow?".

Landlord: "Swindon, as they are playing Sheffield United".



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 19:35:51
Did I miss something? How did Cameron renege on the deal that was offered to Scotland? How is he flip-flopping?

The SNP are the ones that reneged, they made it clear the referendum was a once in a generation opportunity, yet within minutes of them losing they were already working on other ways to gain independence asap.

His opposition to the SNP and them having a place in government is that they are anti-Union and their sole interest in being part of a Labour led coalition is to break up the Union. Don't see how him being anti-SNP means he's against Scottish people having a voice, or even Scottish MP's being part of government.

The only way I can see us preventing a break up of the Union is going federal, but unfortunately neither Labour or the Tories are interested in that option.

I won't disagree with any of the points you make.  But in answer to your question, one minute he (Cameron) is telling the Scots that they're an integral part of the UK and that they should play a pivotal part in shaping its future; and the next he's portraying the expression of their democratic wishes as an apocalypse.  (Don't know about you, but the strongest theme that I have picked up on from the Tory campaign is the aversion to a Labour/SNP tie up.)

In my book, that's a flip-flop of epic proportions.  If he wants the Scots to remain in the UK, he has to treat them as grown ups (as he said he would before the Referendum).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 19:37:08
Don't see how him being anti-SNP means he's against Scottish people having a voice, or even Scottish MP's being part of government.
Because the SNP are going to take Scotland by a landslide if the polls are even half right so by definition he's set his face against the voice of the Scottish people and pre-declared he's opposed to their MPs being part of government


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 19:49:06
Independence. It's independence.

Sorted for you Audrey.      :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Fucking big touche !


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 19:59:18
Because the SNP are going to take Scotland by a landslide if the polls are even half right so by definition he's set his face against the voice of the Scottish people and pre-declared he's opposed to their MPs being part of government

Not sure how that is any different to the SNP being willing to do anything to block a Tory government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 19:59:35
If I was Scottish I'd vote snp. Hardly surprising they are doing so well up there. As an Englishman and resident I would like some of the benefits they already get that we dont.

Gonna be close overall and I reckon Swindon will be split, Tories winning the north and Labour the south.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 19:59:46
BBC journo on radio 4 in swindon tonight.

To Merlin Landlord: "Who do you think will win tomorrow?".

Landlord: "Swindon, as they are playing Sheffield United".



 :clap:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 20:05:28
Gonna be close overall and I reckon Swindon will be split, Tories winning the north and Labour the south.

That's interesting.  I've not lived in Swindon for a long time, but when I did South Swindon (incl Old Town, the Lawns, Liden etc.) was definitely seen as more likely to vote Tory than North Swindon.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 20:10:57
That's interesting.  I've not lived in Swindon for a long time, but when I did South Swindon (incl Old Town, the Lawns, Liden etc.) was definitely seen as more likely to vote Tory than North Swindon.
I'm not sure where they draw the line in terms of north-south divide. North had a pretty big margin last time that I don't think Labour can overhaul. But in the south it was closer and Anne Snelgrove has been running a busy campaign. I think she will edge out Buckland.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 20:48:33
Buckland had a 5% swing in 2010 (3,500 votes). The reorganisation of constituency boundaries certainly helped the Tories. It'll be close, no doubt, but that's a lot for Labour to win back.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 20:49:43
And over this side of town I've seen or heard nothing from Snelgrove but plenty from Buckland.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: joteddyred on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 21:20:34
And over this side of town I've seen or heard nothing from Snelgrove but plenty from Buckland.

Same in the North.  I don't even remember the name of the labour candidate.  Mark something?

I think Justin Tomlinson is pretty safe over here.  He had a good margin last time and as politicians go he seems a reasonable chap and his campaign has been far stronger.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 21:35:17
Some of today's front pages.  So much for a free press.

Why is it that the multi-billionaire owners of these newspapers openly hate the top-rate-tax-rising, non-dom-abolishing, mansion-taxing, Leveson-supporting Labour party...

Just cannot understand why any normal, working person would vote Tory over any of the alternatives.

I wouldn't trust Miliband and his cronies to run a corner shop let alone the country.

Labour used to be the working man's party, but there is more privately educated people in the Labour front bench, than there are in the Tories.

Most of Miliband's 'policies' are soundbites. I've lost count how many things this 'Mansion Tax' is supposed to pay for, and that 'MiliStone' was an absolute joke. They will control immigration... don't make me laugh.

They always say that they are the party of the NHS, but they were the ones who gave GP's a nice big pay rise, and were able to opt-out on out of hours work, which they did, and now you cannot get an appointment within a week, unless you're lucky. And the Welsh Labour party are doing a wonderful job is running the NHS in Wales. The waiting lists are so long that people are moving to England to get treatment quicker.

And do we really want Ed Balls in charge of of the Exchequer. Hell, he cannot even pay someone without bouncing cheques. Don't forget he was an advisor to Brown when he sold most of our gold on the cheap, and has spent the last 5 years having a dig at everything the coalition did, and always being wrong.

And don't forget the last time Labour were in power they left a note saying 'There is no money left'...and Miliband cannot even admit they overspent last time.

The coalition were not perfect, but considering what was left to them, they've done a pretty good job.

Yes, they should stop tax evasion, especially with companies dumping money in tax havens, but that is a world problem and not just in the UK. They also need to simplify the tax rules to stop millionaires exploiting the system, and tax 'advisors' like nothing better to try and save money for their paymasters.

How right is it that millionaire footballers pay only 23% tax on their 'image rights', when they are paid direct to their own company? They can afford to pay a few extra quid into the coffers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 21:57:24
That's interesting.  I've not lived in Swindon for a long time, but when I did South Swindon (incl Old Town, the Lawns, Liden etc.) was definitely seen as more likely to vote Tory than North Swindon.

Think it's pretty much the railway line, so while you do get Old Town and the Lawns, you also get the Parks and Walcott.  Then you have Coleview to Eldene with probably a good mix either way, street by street.

Labour have out leafleted Conservatives in my bit of Eldene, littering buggers.  Shit loads of extra recycling that I need to put out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 22:04:56
Think it's pretty much the railway line, so while you do get Old Town and the Lawns, you also get the Parks and Walcott.  Then you have Coleview to Eldene with probably a good mix either way, street by street.

Labour have out leafleted Conservatives in my bit of Eldene, littering buggers.  Shit loads of extra recycling that I need to put out.

Old Town, isn't particularly Tory.....for example Nadine Watts is a Labour Councillor....the Lib dems have held the Eastcott bits of Old Town for years.  Lawns yes.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 22:09:44
The SNP are the ones that reneged, they made it clear the referendum was a once in a generation opportunity, yet within minutes of them losing they were already working on other ways to gain independence asap.

If you watched Scottish Parliament First Minister questions, you'd see that the party that have been talking about another referendum in Scotland aren't the SNP, but Scottish Labour. They're obsessed by the subject, Kezia Dugdale especially.

I don't doubt that SNP's long term view is to try and get another vote for IndependEnce at some point, but short term they just want as many MP's at WM as possible, and good luck to them.

That said if they end up with 45+ seats tomorrow it'll be a great achievement. 50+ unbelievable.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 22:13:03
I wont be voting for any of the clowns. In fact I don't even know who holds the seat where I live.  Having worked for local and central government in my time, labour would be the last people that I would vote for. Having seen their lunacy and incompetence first hand.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Wednesday, May 6, 2015, 23:30:37
I don't doubt that SNP's long term view is to try and get another vote for IndependEnce at some point, but short term they just want as many MP's at WM as possible, and good luck to them.

The SNP's short term plan is independence. Google Alex Salmond's views on the issue, he doesn't even think a referendum is necessary and that they can just declare independence if they get a majority in the next Scottish parliament elections, for example.

I reckon their ideal result in the election is 50 MP's and a Tory government, which they'll use to push through independence.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 07:08:01
BBC journo on radio 4 in swindon tonight.

To Merlin Landlord: "Who do you think will win tomorrow?".

Landlord: "Swindon, as they are playing Sheffield United".


:D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 07:33:49
Nailed it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdhoDrSv7Q8


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 08:03:07
Not one candidate or their supporters bothered to knock on my door for my views, not too sure if i can be bothered to vote at all!!  Couldn't vote for Tomlinson in Swindon North after he refused to answer my e-mails about the poor service at my doctor's surgery, his original statement was that they had poured "millions upon millions" into the local NHS service but refused to reply despite reminders when I asked him why it was I was quoted five weeks to see a doctor yet my local surgery has a half-day closing!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 08:51:52
I keep getting flyers from Labour about saving the NHS.

One of the Tory threats to the NHS they list is "waiting lists at their highest levels for six years".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that would be 2009 - after 12 years of Labour running and spending money on the NHS?

They are also guaranteeing cancer tests/results in a week and GP appointments within 48 hours. What happens if these guarantees are broken? Do I get compensation? Can I sue Labour for breach of contract and damages?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 09:18:43
I keep getting flyers from Labour about saving the NHS.

One of the Tory threats to the NHS they list is "waiting lists at their highest levels for six years".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that would be 2009 - after 12 years of Labour running and spending money on the NHS?

They are also guaranteeing cancer tests/results in a week and GP appointments within 48 hours. What happens if these guarantees are broken? Do I get compensation? Can I sue Labour for breach of contract and damages?

Dislike Labour.

But.....if the big corp (Tory mates) pay tax in full (on time) we could build a lot of extra hospitals etc etc etc.

Swings and magic roundabouts.

I hate them all..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 09:29:43
Dislike Labour.

But.....if the big corp (Tory mates) pay tax in full (on time) we could build a lot of extra hospitals etc etc etc.

Swings and magic roundabouts.

I hate them all..

Yeah but tax evasion has only been going on since 2010, that why Labour want to do something about it now instead of when they had the chance previously...

This did make me chuckle http://www.shotdeadinthehead.com/politicians-t-shirt.html


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 09:36:19
Yeah but tax evasion has only been going on since 2010, that why Labour want to do something about it now instead of when they had the chance previously...

This did make me chuckle http://www.shotdeadinthehead.com/politicians-t-shirt.html

Or the Tories before that....and...and..and...

As I said, I hate them all.

Old Tory tradition....I would rather eat a bowl of shit from the Tories than three off labour....it's still shit!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 09:43:26
Or the Tories before that....and...and..and...

As I said, I hate them all.

Old Tory tradition....I would rather eat a bowl of shit from the Tories than three off labour....it's still shit!

Indeed although I will have a wander down the street later to exercise my right to be constitutionally ignored. 30 year old career politician getting in here for Labour, cannot find any evidence of a 'real' job on her CV - should be interesting.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JayBox325 on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 09:47:03
http://t.co/1y38A55ByN

Enjoy. Post your politician faces please.

Here's my Ed Miliband face:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CEW9wHjWIAAKOOk.jpg:large)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 09:58:48
Indeed although I will have a wander down the street later to exercise my right to be constitutionally ignored. 30 year old career politician getting in here for Labour, cannot find any evidence of a 'real' job on her CV - should be interesting.

Or milliband.....or the eaton rifles ....Cameron etc


Title: Re:
Post by: Honkytonk on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 10:39:36
We've had a Tory rising star parachuted into our constituency to replace the retiring Tory MP who went to so few debates I don't think he actually realised he was one. The new cocknut used to be one of Cameron's PR guys and has been here all of 5 weeks but proclaims to be local. Him and all his cronies came in the pub a while back and the question was put to him as to why he thinks he represents us and what he understands about our day to day lives and he replied that 'driving around my new constituency I've used a lot of petrol in the Range Rover. It's bigger than I thought.'

Dick.

Should probably add we're a safe Tory seat in these parts. Too many rich ex-city types or stuck-in-the-mud locals to not be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 11:05:13
Quite busy down at eldene community centre where I've just done my voting.
Even if it's only to spoil the paper, people should make the effort I think.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 11:17:22
Quite busy down at eldene community centre where I've just done my voting.
Even if it's only to spoil the paper, people should make the effort I think.
So many people don't bother and then go on and moan about the price of living and taxes etc.

If you don't vote then you have no right to complain about the cost of living/petrol/anything really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bedford Red on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 12:39:54
Just been to vote in Bedford, it was really busy in my polling station.

We have the most things to vote on here i think, i had 4 different votes -

General Election
Local Council
Elected Mayor
Yes or No Referendum on 15.8% rise in police costs in Council Tax

Some people also have a 5th vote, as Parish Council elections are today here as well.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 12:51:06
So many people don't bother and then go on and moan about the price of living and taxes etc.

If you don't vote then you have no right to complain about the cost of living/petrol/anything really.

Unwittingly you've just conceded that voting makes no difference. All it does is allow you the right to "complain".


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Simon Pieman on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 13:20:16
Voting is just one form of being politically active. Never got my head around the no vote = no right to complain argument.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 13:20:32
If you don't vote then you have no right to complain about the cost of living/petrol/anything really.

In my book you have more right to complain than those that voted the fookers in.

Sorry if I repeat myself FB'ers, but I refuse to vote for a party on the basis of being the least shit when they have policies I fundamentally disagree with.

I do recognise the right to vote is important, so I walked to the polling station and spoiled my paper with "none"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 13:26:44
(http://descrier.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/none-of-the-above-428x181.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 13:30:10
In my book you have more right to complain than those that voted the fookers in.

Sorry if I repeat myself FB'ers, but I refuse to vote for a party on the basis of being the least shit when they have policies I fundamentally disagree with.

I do recognise the right to vote is important, so I walked to the polling station and spoiled my paper with "none"

Yes, not voting, particularly in large numbers, has its own merits and is in itself a form of protest. There's nothing politicians like better than a high turnout because it legitimises their system.

A classic example of this is the very low turnout, and exceptionally high number of spoiled ballot papers, with Police Crime Commissioners - an exercise which is now widely seen as a failure due to the lack of interest.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ginginho on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 13:32:43
So many people don't bother and then go on and moan about the price of living and taxes etc.

If you don't vote then you have no right to complain about the cost of living/petrol/anything really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jnf9GILjFM

(Although, I have actually voted)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 16:54:36
I have put my X down, mind you, it helps when you live next door to the polling station :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 16:57:04
I'm too fucking thick to vote, apparently.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 16:59:51
I have put my X down, mind you, it helps when you live next door to the polling station :)
We live 20 yards from a polling station but we can't vote at that one because we are not in that ward! had to drive a mile to vote at our allocated one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 18:03:13
Just voted, mind finally made up by getting home to yet more negative campaigning from the Lib Dems about having to vote for them to stop the Tories. I loathe negative campaigning and they've built their campaign on it here rather than selling themselves. It lost them my vote at least.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 18:19:31
I'm too fucking thick to vote, apparently.

Not too fucking thick to vote, but Scottish politics seems to be a little too much for you at present.

Love you really.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: kerry red on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 18:30:35
Ah well, who really gives a fuck about the sweaties?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 18:37:24
Westminster might next week!  Hopefully not though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: stfc1975 on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 18:39:10
Westminster might next week!  Hopefully not though.

1-3 Town Luongo and 2 strikers. COYR.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: FreddySTFC! on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 18:51:14
1-3 Town Luongo and 2 strikers. COYR.
Ha ha. I see what you've done there  :clap:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:11:23
Exit poll is a huge late swing back to the Tories who might break 300 seats...they could even retain the current coalition if this is correct, although the Lib Dems are even worse than predicted- 10 seats! Big contrast with the last opinion polls which had Labour moving slightly ahead.

It's going to be an interesting night.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:12:37
It's going to be an interesting night.

It'll be the Tories.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:13:14
It'll be the Tories.

Yes, but by how much really, really matters.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Costanza on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:15:41
Yes, but by how much really, really matters.

You know how it's going to go... Go to bed, it's not worth the tiredness :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:18:01
Paddy Ashdown says if that exit poll is correct he'll eat his hat on the Andrew Neil show. Ha ha, quality.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:20:34
Fuck me, don't think anyone saw this coming. Exit polls are normally pretty accurate.

Clegg and the Lib Dems are history if this is remotely correct


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:22:06
SNP on 58 too- that's literally all but one seat they're standing in.

Harriet Harman trying to claim that the Conservatives winning 319 seats would undermine the legitimacy of the coalition. No, that's just silly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:22:10
The lib dems will be in power again, if the exit poll is right, you mean.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:22:44
The lib dems will be in power again, if the exit poll is right, you mean.

Not under Clegg they won't, if they're down to 10 seats, not a chance is Clegg one of them, his seat is marginal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:23:08
SNP on 58 too- that's literally all but one seat they're standing in.

Harriet Harman trying to claim that the Conservatives winning 319 seats would undermine the legitimacy of the coalition. No, that's just silly.

Harriet Harman is a complete and utter moron. And she's proving it quite well right now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:23:52
Not under Clegg they won't, if they're down to 10 seats, not a chance is Clegg one of them, his seat is marginal.

Yep, not disagreeing, which is why I said LD's and not Clegg.

Not getting carried away with an exit poll though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:25:35
The lib dems will be in power again, if the exit poll is right, you mean.

The Tories could easily go to the SDUP,  or whatever that Irish lot are called, to make up the difference. The 2 parties are pretty close politically


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:26:26
True.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JoeMezz on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:28:33
I can't see conservatives getting this many seats... surely


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:29:04
YouGov have: Con 284 seat, Lab 263, SNP 48, LibDem 31

Which is much closer to the pre-election predictions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:43:30
Only 6000 polled on that one I think, but yep much more in line with pre election thoughts. 10 non SNP scottish seats a bit more believable too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:47:41
Yougov figures a 'forecast' not an exit poll.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:51:15
Sunderland announce after 49 minutes.

The Lib Dems lost their deposit, massively. UKIP beat the Tories too, but obviously it's a huge Labour majority.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 22:54:03
1-0 to the Miliband... It's a marathon not a sprint.

Bloody mackems, there's no telling 'em.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 23:04:20
What is Sunderland South's obsession with being the first? It doesn't make their MP any more important.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JoeMezz on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 23:05:35
They always try and beat Newcastle don't they?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 23:07:11
They always try and beat Newcastle don't they?

Never in doubt after Newcastle installed John Carver as presiding officer


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 23:08:08
What is Sunderland South's obsession with being the first? It doesn't make their MP any more important.

Tradizione mio amico, tradizione.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JoeMezz on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 23:08:37
Never in doubt after Newcastle installed John Carver as presiding officer

He's the best officer in the country


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, May 7, 2015, 23:42:29
For fans of prominent politicians failing, early rumours suggest that Clegg, Balls and Farage may all lose tonight. Which would be quite funny really.

Edit: and potentially Galloway, that would be a real silver lining.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Friday, May 8, 2015, 00:06:35
Who's Galloway?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Friday, May 8, 2015, 00:10:26
That would be funny seeing George G kicked out on his arse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 00:32:24
Swindon North stays Conservative, Justin Tomlinson keeps his seat.

Edit: Blimey, swing to the Tories as well. If Swindon N is still a bellweather seat, this exit poll just took a big step towards reality. The Lib Dems have currently lost four deposits out of four.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, May 8, 2015, 01:04:53
Not content with killing the nhs and public services, the Tories have killed the lib dems too. Not that it comes as a surprise.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dostoyevsky on Friday, May 8, 2015, 01:47:14
Whatever the outcome the Zionist scum fucking maggots retain power. Enjoy the illusion. If you want to know who runs you, ask who it is you can't criticize. The nest of vipers are loving this.  :bye:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 01:49:24
Evening Dosser, what cider were you on tonight?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dostoyevsky on Friday, May 8, 2015, 01:50:54
At least the Russians kicked the odious ones out. How you can give credence to this is beyond my willingness for sympathy. Out with the oligarchichal nation wrecking scumbags


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 01:52:40
I'm not the biggest fan of our ruling elites, but you'll have to go some to convince me Russia are better off.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dostoyevsky on Friday, May 8, 2015, 01:53:22
I am on aldi beer to cope with this charade. How r u? These BBC whores furthering Zionist agendas


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dostoyevsky on Friday, May 8, 2015, 01:56:47
Russia are bad off mate, however you have to go through bad times to emerge into better ones. Saddened what these fucking oligarchs did to Ukraine and brought us onto their joy ride. It is all blather. I still watch it like a better. I must be insane


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Friday, May 8, 2015, 02:01:17
If you want to know who runs you, ask who it is you can't criticize.

Stephen Fry?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dostoyevsky on Friday, May 8, 2015, 02:19:53
That cunt Fry is the biggest covert Zionist cunt of them all. Shun the mainstream. Election results coming in now, so I will be silent. Russia is our only hope and when they clear the scum away we will realize our idiocy. Not long now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dostoyevsky on Friday, May 8, 2015, 02:22:10
No limp wristed shite there, they stand up in the face of parisitical scum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 02:24:50
Ever been to Russia Dosser?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Dostoyevsky on Friday, May 8, 2015, 04:57:03
Many times and I take no NATO shite. It is a great honor. Long live STFC, and kick politics out of football and also the self eating activist parties


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Friday, May 8, 2015, 05:27:41
Well swindon north and south is blue...

Tories on course to be a major force but maybe without a majority.

Lib demos well and truly fucked with Clegg having to resign I reckon.

Haven't looked closely but I don't think UKIP have a seat yet?

SNP trounce labour in Scotland....

Plaid out Cymroo or whatever trying to better LibDems in worst results...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 8, 2015, 07:55:45
Cleggy may have retained his seat, but he is finished. Mwhahahahahaha.

Now can that massive Bellend Ferage lose his seat, and Ed Balls for that matter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 8, 2015, 08:17:03
I'm going to have to give credit where it's due to Kingston Robin.  In the Duke of Wellington last night (great meet up by the way...around 30 London Reds, superb atmosphere), he made the prediction before the game that the Tories would scrape a majority.  We all thought he was mad.  Didn't see this coming at all.

So his head doesn't get too big though, you have to balance that by noting KR's musings on the rotation policy not working were way off.   ;)  It's worked a treat.  That team performance during the final 60 minutes was fresh and energetic.  Fair play to Mark Cooper.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Leggett on Friday, May 8, 2015, 08:21:19
Cleggy may have retained his seat, but he is finished. Mwhahahahahaha.

Now can that massive Bellend Ferage lose his seat, and Ed Balls for that matter.

Forage never had a seat to lose!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 8, 2015, 08:30:34
I'm going to have to give credit where it's due to Kingston Robin.  In the Duke of Wellington last night (great meet up by the way...around 30 London Reds, superb atmosphere), he made the prediction before the game that the Tories would scrape a majority.  We all thought he was mad.  Didn't see this coming at all.


Well played sutton.

---

Balls out?|


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 8, 2015, 08:30:53
Forage never had a seat to lose!

Fair point! - fails to win then..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:04:52
This is a terrible day for Britain and for Swindon. People are so gullible and selfish.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:13:24
Well that was somewhat unexpected, no idea what the hell happened with the polls although it suggests that when asked prior to an election people are embarrassed to say they will vote Tory?

Balls losing his seat will possibly remain as the Portillo moment of the night? Must admit that it made me laugh, not due to any political reasons he just always comes across as a belligerent bully.

So where does politics go from here, Cooper in at Labour, Farron at Lib Dems (Clegg proved even more toxic than anyone imagined), someone more media acceptable at UKIP?

There seems to be much on social media about the failings in the voting system, it is crap but we had our chance in 2010 and the public bottled it!

An unfettered Tory government - possibly will make people realise that the Lib Dems being there had been a good thing......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:25:42
Balls gone, Miliband dead in the water, Clegg even deader in the water, Cable and Alexander gone along with 80% of the Lib Dems generally. Farage will make it 3 out of 4 main parties seeking a new leader.

For better or for worse (and I know which I think) we're about to see how much of a calming influence the Lib Dems actually were in the coalition. Cameron is going to have pretty much free reign for a while at least.

Most depressingly of all Lynton Crosby's repetitive messages and negative campaigning worked in a big way, so we can look forward to the next election being just as shit as this one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:29:13
For those of you waking up to the results, here's a handy guide to what this election result actually means for the UK:

Welfare- gone
legal aid- gone
Rich- richer
Poor- poorer
Housing- crisis
Charity- cuts
NHS- sold

Bravo Tory voters, bravo. Maggie would be proud of you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:33:35
The lib dems being punished for being in a coalition with the Tories has seen the Tories benefit from it hugely. That's the madness of it.

I'm gonna have to take up hunt sabbing by the looks of it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:45:49
fox or peasant hunting?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, May 8, 2015, 09:58:55
Most depressingly of all Lynton Crosby's repetitive messages and negative campaigning worked in a big way, so we can look forward to the next election being just as shit as this one.

Not sure why Labour saying vote Tory and they'll destroy the NHS is any different from the Tories saying vote Lab/SNP and they would destroy the country. Or the SNP's main policy being keep the Tories out at any cost.

Problem is that negative campaigning works. Lib Dems were more positive than others and look at what happened to them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:04:11
Problem is that negative campaigning works. Lib Dems were more positive than others and look at what happened to them.

Perhaps Labour and Libs could try this next time then:


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:08:26
Lin dems campaigning strategy was irrelevant. They sold out an absolutely key policy promise during the coalition. there isn't any coming back from a distinct lack of trust.

voters felt betrayed and couldn't see past this, me included, but I'm sure they also did provide checks and balances on some bad Tory ideas too.

nobody really expected an outright Tory win this time. it's a bit worrying though the small majority and the looming Europe referendum sized wedge may keep them sane with luck


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:15:21
If people are that riled by the winners, stop watching tv, close Facebook and have a fucking riot. The political class have it too easy and the populace seems only capable of moaning.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:20:36
Taxes will go up in the next budget. Best start tightening our belts now.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: REDBUCK on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:29:19
So the Scots voted for more of a say and a bit of Uk wide power but lost some good MP's and gained a 20 year old Student. England said no fucking way and switched back to voting Tory in such numbers that it stopped them getting it.

It's caused a right pickle all around.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:31:10
If people are that riled by the winners, stop watching tv, close Facebook and have a fucking riot. The political class have it too easy and the populace seems only capable of moaning.

I agree with the spirit of that idea (ie do something constructive to change things instead of moaning) if not the actual rioting bit.

A Tory majority means boundary changes that will mean Tory govts (majority or Coalition) forever. I don't think that's a good thing for the vast majority of people but what can you do to change things? Whether I like it or not (and I really don't) that's what people have voted for. And I do believe in democracy. Even though most people must clearly be  bellends  delusional, voting those cunts in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:37:59
Farage lost. Every gigantic sky full of storm clouds has a silver lining.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jimmy_onions on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:38:56
the disparity between number of seats and number of votes is amazing (SNP, 56 seats, 1.4m votes, UKIP, 3.8m votes, 1seat).
Its has obviously always been like this but cant say I have noticed before.
First past the post is ok for a two party dominated system, but I think there is a decent argument for PR right now...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jimmy_onions on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:39:53
oh, and I am a bellend.
Apparently.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:41:51
Taxes will go up in the next budget. Best start tightening our belts now.
Didn't Cameron say he was going to pass a law preventing tax rises?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:43:06
 The next 5 years is going to be about the brerak up of the UK and the Tory right's hope for a withdrawal form the EU...

 ...not going to be pretty.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: lambourn red on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:44:46
oh, and I am a bellend.
Apparently.

Im a happy bellend as well


Title: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:46:09
Quote
oh, and I am a bellend.
Apparently.
was that UKIP profile you on Twitter? haha.

wait, I called farage a bellend, are you Nigel Farage?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:50:33
Thank you Nicola Sturgeon we couldn`t have done it without you xxxx


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jimmy_onions on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:51:53
The next 5 years is going to be about the brerak up of the UK and the Tory right's hope for a withdrawal form the EU...

 ...not going to be pretty.

So far the arguments have been all very one sided, e.g nothing but scaremongering from the anti europe brigade; Europe being a huge bureaucratic drain on the country etc...the pro Europe brigade need to up their game and start extolling the virtues of staying in.

(do I win a prize for the use of the word extolling?)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:52:05
Al Murrays reaction :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jimmy_onions on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:53:21
was that UKIP profile you on Twitter? haha.

wait, I called farage a bellend, are you Nigel Farage?

yes, thats me.
And did you know how many people with aids there are that come to this country for treatment?
Makes me sick.
Almost as sick as them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, May 8, 2015, 10:59:12
:)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Friday, May 8, 2015, 11:01:16
yes, thats me.
And did you know how many people with aids there are that come to this country for treatment?
Makes me sick.
Almost as sick as them.
what the fuck


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, May 8, 2015, 11:17:30
The Thatcher non society is really coming to fruition now. People that are doing ok at the moment and are only interested in themselves have voted accordingly. Many of these people will learn the hard way that they have made a big mistake.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jimmy_onions on Friday, May 8, 2015, 11:30:29
There seems to be an awful lot of preaching on here. And plenty predicting immediate Armageddon.
Just because someone votes tory doesn't automatically mean they are a fox hunt loving, banker bonus encouraging, europe hating, immigrant bashing, welfare cutting, nhs dismantling, young child hating (saw this on twitter), nazi.
It just that in some peoples eyes, when looking at the alternatives, happens to be the best choice this time around.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Friday, May 8, 2015, 11:43:44
Nige and Clegg resigned then.

Paul Hart bookies fav for the lib dem job


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bathtime on Friday, May 8, 2015, 11:47:52
Looking forward to a federal Scotland that will redress the natural order, with the labour party making a come back as the sweaties realise that it will cost them hard cash.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 8, 2015, 11:52:22
There seems to be an awful lot of preaching on here. And plenty predicting immediate Armageddon.
Just because someone votes tory doesn't automatically mean they are a fox hunt loving, banker bonus encouraging, europe hating, immigrant bashing, welfare cutting, nhs dismantling, young child hating (saw this on twitter), nazi.
It just that in some peoples eyes, when looking at the alternatives, happens to be the best choice this time around.

I know a few Tories and that pretty much somes up their outlook.....as for their voters, they probably need to hold at least 4 or 5 of these views.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, May 8, 2015, 11:58:08
There seems to be an awful lot of preaching on here. And plenty predicting immediate Armageddon.
Just because someone votes tory doesn't automatically mean they are a fox hunt loving, banker bonus encouraging, europe hating, immigrant bashing, welfare cutting, nhs dismantling, young child hating (saw this on twitter), nazi.
It just that in some peoples eyes, when looking at the alternatives, happens to be the best choice this time around.

Yeah agreed but you just voted for a party that has many MPs who support exactly those things

(Probably not the young child-hating or nazi bit to be fair)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, May 8, 2015, 11:59:34
There seems to be an awful lot of preaching on here. And plenty predicting immediate Armageddon.
Just because someone votes tory doesn't automatically mean they are a fox hunt loving, banker bonus encouraging, europe hating, immigrant bashing, welfare cutting, nhs dismantling, young child hating (saw this on twitter), nazi.

maybe not. But they've voted for a party that are.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 8, 2015, 12:02:01
Miliband was unelectable, arriba.  The votes had to go somewhere.  I really think that it's that simple.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Friday, May 8, 2015, 12:02:53
maybe not. But they've voted for a party that are.

Not in every case, there are plenty of people who didn't vote for the tories as such, but just couldn't take the risk of letting Tweedledum and Tweedledee control the UK's purse strings.

And voting Tory was the only real way of voting against Labour and there awful anti recovery fckn policies.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Friday, May 8, 2015, 12:24:29
There seems to be an awful lot of preaching on here. And plenty predicting immediate Armageddon.
Just because someone votes tory doesn't automatically mean they are a fox hunt loving, banker bonus encouraging, europe hating, immigrant bashing, welfare cutting, nhs dismantling, young child hating (saw this on twitter), nazi.
It just that in some peoples eyes, when looking at the alternatives, happens to be the best choice this time around.

Agreed.  Those that are saying that those voting tory have dropped the country in the shit and will regret the vote maybe right, but perhaps they should take a look at what the alternatives were before chucking rocks.  I would guess the majority of the "bellends" that voted this lot in voted for them because of the lack of decent alternatives rather than they fully supported their entire manifesto.

The best of a bad bunch has won IMO.  Too much of a risk to stick Labour in charge of our coffers for another 5 years.  Come back with a solid plan, and a leader we can get behind and I have no doubts that the "don't feel there is a better choice" voter will swing back to Labour..  Labour haven't done that this time around...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, May 8, 2015, 12:33:03
I'm satisfied with the result. Although, I did not expect a Tory majority and probably would've preferred another coalition.

Whilst my views generally sit somewhere to the left of centre, the thought of Labour undoing years of austerity by increasing spending frankly scared me. Economically it was the best outcome.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, May 8, 2015, 12:38:53
Think a lot of people were primarily worried about the SNP being in government, Miliband and Balls to a lesser degree.

The biggest issue we've got now is Scotland, more so than the economy. Appears the chances of some form of federal system being implemented are growing, Boris and other senior Tories talking about it. Depends on whether Cameron is up for it, the majority and support the Tories got gives him the mandate to do something radical. Plus all the other parties are in tatters.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 12:45:37
I'm satisfied with the result. Although, I did not expect a Tory majority and probably would've preferred another coalition.

Whilst my views generally sit somewhere to the left of centre, the thought of Labour undoing years of austerity by increasing spending frankly scared me. Economically it was the best outcome.

Was it though? Even if you accept that the Tories are more economically literate in running the domestic economy, the EU referendum is going to cause huge uncertainty and if we do vote to leave, that's going to cause huge economic turmoil. And with a small majority, Cameron's backbenchers are not going to let him not hold that, and probably not even campaign in favour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, May 8, 2015, 12:47:00
Any federal arrangement would need to involve fiscal autonomy for the Scots to go for it.  The stand out message of this election is that Scotland wishes to follow a different path fiscally to England.  As you say, much of this hinges on Cameron, Johnson and Osborne.  They may decide to fight for a federal arrangement in which some ties with Scotland are retained...or they may decide that an amicable separation is in everyone's best interest.  If they come to the latter conclusion, I think things could move quite quickly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Friday, May 8, 2015, 12:54:13
Was it though? Even if you accept that the Tories are more economically literate in running the domestic economy, the EU referendum is going to cause huge uncertainty and if we do vote to leave, that's going to cause huge economic turmoil. And with a small majority, Cameron's backbenchers are not going to let him not hold that, and probably not even campaign in favour.

We're not going to be leaving the EU. Cameron will get some concessions - Juncker has said there is some wiggle room and the rest of the EU don't want us to leave. Plus the economy will have recovered a lot more by the time of the vote, which will lessen the negativity towards the EU even more.

We do need the discussion and the vote though, if only to put it to bed for a while.

They may decide to fight for a federal arrangement in which some ties with Scotland are retained...or they may decide that an amicable separation is in everyone's best interest.  If they come to the latter conclusion, I think things could move quite quickly.

The important thing is that a long term solution is found and then implemented in a controlled manner so everyone knows what they're getting in advance. Would have been chaos if they'd voted yes in the referendum. Don't think it really makes that much difference to the rest of the UK and especially England in the long run (I reckon we'd be better off) but we need to make sure it's done right.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, May 8, 2015, 13:02:50
Was it though? Even if you accept that the Tories are more economically literate in running the domestic economy, the EU referendum is going to cause huge uncertainty and if we do vote to leave, that's going to cause huge economic turmoil. And with a small majority, Cameron's backbenchers are not going to let him not hold that, and probably not even campaign in favour.

In the grandest scheme of things, yes. I know it's not what you're really saying, but electing an economically illiterate government on the basis that they would've saved us from a Yes/No vote on the EU would've been bonkers.

I'm quite open to the EU referendum, because I don't think we'd vote to leave. Yes there will be some uncertainty in the markets but the fact we don't have a pegged currency will soften things somewhat.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 13:17:25
So, we all know FPTP is a flawed system, but what chance electoral reform now?

Some stats from today, number of votes per seat for each party:

UKIP 3.8m (one seat)
Green 1.2m (one seat)
Lib Dems 300k (eight seats)
Plaid 60,000 (three seats)
Labour 40,000 (229)
Conservatives 34,000 (325)
SNP 26,700 (56)

It's a funny old form of democracy, isn't it? Not suggesting that full PR would be a great idea, but there are things between the two...



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, May 8, 2015, 13:54:23
Whilst my views generally sit somewhere to the left of centre, the thought of Labour undoing years of austerity by increasing spending frankly scared me. Economically it was the best outcome.

I think a lot of people share your view on that. What I don't understand is that despite all the austerity, the deficit is higher than it was in 2010 and so is the national debt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Simon Pieman on Friday, May 8, 2015, 14:11:03
I think a lot of people share your view on that. What I don't understand is that despite all the austerity, the deficit is higher than it was in 2010 and so is the national debt.

The state of the economy is to blame. Less tax revenues.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 8, 2015, 14:16:59
Bored of the austerity debate now - it just doesn't work. What did Attlee do after WW2 when the country had a national debt of over 250% of GDP? He started the biggest public spend in years including the NHS, privatising the railways and investing in infrastructure.

Austerity is not the answer.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/2013-04-03/austerity-delusion

http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/17593/austerity_doesnt_work

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/its-official-austerity-economics-doesnt-work


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 8, 2015, 14:41:26
So, we all know FPTP is a flawed system, but what chance electoral reform now?

Some stats from today, number of votes per seat for each party:

UKIP 3.8m (one seat)
Green 1.2m (one seat)
Lib Dems 300k (eight seats)
Plaid 60,000 (three seats)
Labour 40,000 (229)
Conservatives 34,000 (325)
SNP 26,700 (56)

It's a funny old form of democracy, isn't it? Not suggesting that full PR would be a great idea, but there are things between the two...



It is a flawed system now, however it has always been a flawed system and there seemed to be less complaint about how bad it was for democracy when Labour were winning elections?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Friday, May 8, 2015, 14:43:37
It is a flawed system now, however it has always been a flawed system and there seemed to be less complaint about how bad it was for democracy when Labour were winning elections?

Can't speak for others but I've never been a fan. Rise of smaller parties is clearly a huge issue with it though, it's fine for a two party system but not when you have 5-6 parties potentially in contention.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, May 8, 2015, 14:46:12
Bored of the austerity debate now - it just doesn't work. What did Attlee do after WW2 when the country had a national debt of over 250% of GDP? He started the biggest public spend in years including the NHS, privatising the railways and investing in infrastructure.

Austerity is not the answer.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/2013-04-03/austerity-delusion

http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/17593/austerity_doesnt_work

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/its-official-austerity-economics-doesnt-work

But after WW2 the private sector wasn't mortgaged up to the eyeballs, rolling in credit card debt. 2009 was a balance sheet recession and had much more to do with private sector debt levels than the business cycle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_sheet_recession

Sure, we could've tried spending our way out of it to encourage growth so that the private sector could carry on feeling comfortable about the level of debt they were shouldering. But the next crash would've been inevitable and even deeper.

It would've taken longer to recover too. Part of my dislike of Labour's economic plan was that they wanted to reduce the deficit reduction rate to 1/5th of what the Tories plan. Cuts aren't nice for anybody, but I'd much rather a decade of cuts than multiple decades of stagnant growth (see: Japan).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 8, 2015, 15:37:17
Thanks for the Wiki link that confirmed my point,.

Quote
In Krugman's view, balance sheet recessions require private sector debt reduction strategies (e.g., mortgage refinancing) combined with higher government spending to offset declines from the private sector as it pays down its debt, writing in July 2014: "Unlike a financial panic, a balance sheet recession can’t be cured simply by restoring confidence: no matter how confident they may be feeling, debtors can’t spend more if their creditors insist they cut back. So offsetting the economic downdraft from a debt overhang requires concrete action, which can in general take two forms: fiscal stimulus and debt relief. That is, the government can step in to spend because the private sector can’t, and it can also reduce private debts to allow the debtors to spend again. Unfortunately, we did too little of the first and almost none of the second."[4]


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, May 8, 2015, 16:25:28
Ha, perhaps I should've read it before I posted the link :D

I stand by my opinion though, eventually the government will have to reduce the deficit. I've got more on this but have to go into a meeting now so I'll respond later.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 8, 2015, 16:40:24
The best way to reduce the deficit is for the government to invest in areas where we will see a return on the money and therefore grow the economy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, May 8, 2015, 17:07:56
The next 5 years is going to be about the brerak up of the UK and the Tory right's hope for a withdrawal form the EU...

 ...not going to be pretty.

Sorry, who gave the Scots devolution?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, May 8, 2015, 17:09:52
Im a happy bellend as well
Me too. Oh look, all those 24 carat gold bars tucked under my bed just doubled overnight.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, May 8, 2015, 17:22:26
Me too. Oh look, all those 24 carat gold bars tucked under my bed just doubled overnight.

If you had shares in the major banks you would have done pretty well this morning too eh.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, May 8, 2015, 17:26:48
Not sure what I should do, I better stick to the lazy stereotype apparently all of us voted Tory are meant to adhere to though.

Probably go fox hunting then find an immigrate or someone on welfare to abuse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 8, 2015, 17:28:00
Sorry, who gave the Scits devolution?

Labour, of course, a manifesto pledge, delivered, along with the Welsh Assembly and Power Sharing in Stormont.

The proposed regional assemblies in England, were rejected by the electorate in referendum.

Maybe Cameron will surprise us, and live up to his claim of being a One Nation Tory, and act in the national interest rather than his own and his party interest......I'm not expecting it though


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, May 8, 2015, 17:31:41
Labour, of course, a manifesto pledge, delivered, along with the Welsh Assembly and Power Sharing in Stormont.

The proposed regional assemblies in England, were rejected by the electorate in referendum.

Maybe Cameron will surprise us, and live up to his claim of being a One Nation Tory, and act in the national interest rather than his own and his party interest......I'm not expecting it though


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, May 8, 2015, 17:34:28
Labour, of course, a manifesto pledge, delivered, along with the Welsh Assembly and Power Sharing in Stormont.

The proposed regional assemblies in England, were rejected by the electorate in referendum.

Maybe Cameron will surprise us, and live up to his claim of being a One Nation Tory, and act in the national interest rather than his own and his party interest......I'm not expecting it though

Yes, New Labour Reg, new Labour because they thought it would cement the Scottish people to Labour in perpetuity. That was the thin end of the wedge and you should be careful what you wish for some times shouldn't you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 8, 2015, 17:41:26
Not sure what I should do, I better stick to the lazy stereotype apparently all of us voted Tory are meant to adhere to though.

Probably go fox hunting then find an immigrate or someone on welfare to abuse.

Would being unable to spell correctly comform to stereotype?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, May 8, 2015, 17:42:22
The best way to reduce the deficit is for the government to invest in areas where we will see a return on the money and therefore grow the economy.

Potentially yes, but where are these areas for growth? You used WW2 as an example of where spending helped, but in that case we literally had to rebuild the country which created hundreds of thousands of jobs and created huge demand for industry and manufacturing. Where do we find that now? That's why this "austerity doesn't work" has caused a lot of debate.

It is really a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Growth is (mainly) stimulated by consumer confidence. Consumers feel confident when they've got money to spend and don't have to worry about the debt they hold. With austerity there are cuts to services and jobs which semi-artificially causes the public (private sector) to pay down their debt until they are at a level where we feel confident about our spending. If we go with the "spend our way out" approach you have to create sufficient enough growth to not only encourage growth in the economy through additional jobs, infrastructure, manufacturing etc. but consumers have to be given confidence that they can afford to go out and spend and either maintain or pay down their debt.

We will, at some point, have to reduce the level of government borrowing (the deficit). The government could wait for growth to return before resorting to cutting spending but with a recession that cut so deep and unlike many before, that could take a very long time. Consumers took on a lot of debt unlike in previous bubbles (110% mortgages) which means we'd need a hell of a lot of growth for consumers to feel confident enough to spend. That could take decades. Whilst austerity hurts, it drastically cuts down on the amount of time it would take to get us back into some sort of "normal" economic cycle.

The nature of my job means that I get to listen to a lot of very clever economists. Some are very pro-austerity and some a quite against it. A lot are indifferent. The majority want us to get back to a normal situation as soon as possible and so do I. I don't want years and years of limp growth and tit-for-tat politics where elections are won on the basis of who can manage the deficit the best and squeeze in a few policies rather than having a stable economy and a budget that allows government to run the country as it should be.

Austerity sucks, and it is a bit like cutting off an arm, but it sure beats having to crawl on our hands and knees for the next 20 years.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 8, 2015, 17:46:10
I'd start by privatising essential services - the railways, energy companies and water providers. Perhaps start building a couple of hundred thousand houses for the social, that has the double benefit of creating plenty of construction jobs and providing affordable housing/keeping rental prices from rising.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, May 8, 2015, 18:01:53
I'd start by privatising essential services - the railways, energy companies and water providers. Perhaps start building a couple of hundred thousand houses for the social, that has the double benefit of creating plenty of construction jobs and providing affordable housing/keeping rental prices from rising.

You may not have noticed Jayo, but essential services are already privatised.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 8, 2015, 18:18:38
Would being unable to spell correctly comform to stereotype?
I really hope that is deliberate...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Friday, May 8, 2015, 18:24:52
Would being unable to spell correctly comform to stereotype?

Inability to work predictive text on an iPhone probably would, not sure which is the most technology savy party mind you


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, May 8, 2015, 19:12:37
Not sure what I should do, I better stick to the lazy stereotype apparently all of us voted Tory are meant to adhere to though.

Probably go fox hunting then find an immigrate or someone on welfare to abuse.
which wasn't what people said. Not on here at least unless I missed it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Friday, May 8, 2015, 19:44:37
it is so depressing - anyone with kids has to start saving now to give them any chance of a future. University education will be out of reach for many and owning a house will only be for the wealthy. Generation rent are here for the foreseeable. We used to invest the equivalent of £20 billion a year on building good quality social housing, now we spend the same amount on housing benefit, going straight into the pockets of buy to let landlords, artificially keeping property prices high. All you I'm alright Jack Tory voters can fuck off  - you are, without exception, cunts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, May 8, 2015, 19:48:30
it is so depressing - anyone with kids has to start saving now to give them any chance of a future. University education will be out of reach for many and owning a house will only be for the wealthy. Generation rent are here for the foreseeable. We used to invest the equivalent of £20 billion a year on building good quality social housing, now we spend the same amount on housing benefit, going straight into the pockets of buy to let landlords, artificially keeping property prices high. All you I'm alright Jack Tory voters can fuck off  - you are, without exception, cunts.
I'm a cunt then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 8, 2015, 20:00:02
You may not have noticed Jayo, but essential services are already privatised.

Yeah sorry, obviously not what I meant. What's the opposite of privatisation? :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, May 8, 2015, 20:02:55
Yeah sorry, obviously not what I meant. What's the opposite of privatisation? :)
public service incompetence......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Friday, May 8, 2015, 20:32:08
public service incompetence......
which former public services have improved for their privatisation? look at the state of them.
There is plenty of incompetence where they are concerned. Just look at the reviews the utilities companies get. Look at how they rip the public off.
The trains are expensive and a poor overcrowded unreliable joke still funded by the tax payer.
The remaining public services are having their necks strangled by cut after cut and those that are left will be given away to Tory chums to coin it in soon enough. Money for the fat cats. A dog shit service for the public.

When there's fuck all left to undersell what will be next. A disabled tax?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Friday, May 8, 2015, 20:33:19
The political result of the election night was that horrible patronising piece of shit Ed Balls lose his seat. Its a shame his equally shitstain bitch of a wife didn't as well. Labour seriously need to eliminate the North London intelligentsia and reconnect with their supports. Add to that the Honourable Minister for Baghdad has been voted out as well. Didn't want the Tories in but at least them having the majority should limit the influence the Sweaties will have.  


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Friday, May 8, 2015, 20:40:10
it is so depressing - anyone with kids has to start saving now to give them any chance of a future. University education will be out of reach for many and owning a house will only be for the wealthy. Generation rent are here for the foreseeable. We used to invest the equivalent of £20 billion a year on building good quality social housing, now we spend the same amount on housing benefit, going straight into the pockets of buy to let landlords, artificially keeping property prices high. All you I'm alright Jack Tory voters can fuck off  - you are, without exception, cunts.



Well on your logic then we would be better off binning democracy altogether.  Sounds like anyone that doesn't agree with your views gets labelled a cunt.  I would have loved to have voted Labour, but they put a twat in charge that nobody with an ounce of grey matter could get behind, had no real plan on how to reduce the deficit and couldn't even admit that they spent well beyond our means in their last stint.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, May 8, 2015, 20:51:05
public service incompetence......

The East Coast Mainline.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, May 8, 2015, 21:11:35
The East Coast Mainline.
share holders money. Not yours or mine. I'm still a cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Friday, May 8, 2015, 21:40:36
Yeah sorry, obviously not what I meant. What's the opposite of privatisation? :)
Nationalisation.
share holders money. Not yours or mine. I'm still a cunt.
More taxpayers' money has gone into the railways since they were privatised than when they were in public ownership. And for that we don't even get an affordable public service, but those shareholders are doing very nicely thank you


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Friday, May 8, 2015, 21:54:12
Nationalisation.More taxpayers' money has gone into the railways since they were privatised than when they were in public ownership. And for that we don't even get an affordable public service, but those shareholders are doing very nicely thank you
that's a sweeping statement. The rail companies are losing the agreed government subsidies year on year. Network rail is currently owned by the tax payer so that should make you happy. Can you produce the numbers v punctuality that BR enjoyed v the subsidies and punctuality numbers that the current system has to show? No I doubt that either. I'm still a cunt and for that matter the silent majority that voted for those Tory toffs. It never ceases to amaze me that the bile, envy and hatred espoused by the left when they lose or don't get their way at an election. You never see newspaper comment pages or sites like this and other social mafia outlets driving and groaning with comments from conservative voters. Similar to the religious zealots who always bang in your door to try and convert you to their way of thinking at the most in opportune moments. You font get atheists trying to persuade people coming out of church that goddfoes not exist do you?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Friday, May 8, 2015, 22:30:58
it is so depressing - anyone with kids has to start saving now to give them any chance of a future. University education will be out of reach for many and owning a house will only be for the wealthy. Generation rent are here for the foreseeable. We used to invest the equivalent of £20 billion a year on building good quality social housing, now we spend the same amount on housing benefit, going straight into the pockets of buy to let landlords, artificially keeping property prices high. All you I'm alright Jack Tory voters can fuck off  - you are, without exception, cunts.
Bollocks my kids will do what I had to do and work to better themselves.
I did OK out of it and no I didn't go the university, no silver spoon  and no I was never the brightest.
You are on your own whoever governs this Country.

As for the election it was obvious, when you put an absolute prick In charge of the second largest party it will equal a majority. Thank fuck he resigned as if he got into power this Country would have been in serious trouble.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, May 8, 2015, 22:54:15
it is so depressing - anyone with kids has to start saving now to give them any chance of a future. University education will be out of reach for many and owning a house will only be for the wealthy. Generation rent are here for the foreseeable. We used to invest the equivalent of £20 billion a year on building good quality social housing, now we spend the same amount on housing benefit, going straight into the pockets of buy to let landlords, artificially keeping property prices high. All you I'm alright Jack Tory voters can fuck off  - you are, without exception, cunts.

University tuition fees... first introduced by Labour...much like what's happening with the NHS - Tories wouldn't be where we are now without Labour opening the door for them....

House price inflation.... mainly due to nimby members of the population not wanting new houses built anywhere...

Social housing construction is a problem but no worse than it was 1997-2010....

I haven't and never would vote Tory but blaming them for all that's bad is just not supported by the facts?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Friday, May 8, 2015, 23:53:33
You never see newspaper comment pages or sites like this and other social mafia outlets driving and groaning with comments from conservative voters.

Sorry, can't let that go. Are you fucking kidding me? Take a visit to the Mail online some time.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 00:04:10
As for the election it was obvious, when you put an absolute prick In charge of the second largest party it will equal a majority. Thank fuck he resigned as if he got into power this Country would have been in serious trouble.

Out of interest, do you or any other non-Labour voters on here think any of the policies of capping utility bills, breaking up the bigger banks, restricting zero hours contracts, introducing 50% tax rate for higher earners or implementing Leveson could ever have been a good thing? (As we won't get any of them now)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 00:43:27
Out of interest, do you or any other non-Labour voters on here think any of the policies of capping utility bills, breaking up the bigger banks, restricting zero hours contracts, introducing 50% tax rate for higher earners or implementing Leveson could ever have been a good thing? (As we won't get any of them now)

Capping utility bills is one of the stupidest ideas that Miliband came up with. If there are problems with the utility market, there are plenty of other more suitable ways to address them. Price fixing is never a good idea.

Miliband blew the zero hour contracts issue out of proportion to make it an election issue, I suspect he failed. Again, if there is an issue (and it's a big if) with zero hour contracts then there are better ways to deal with it.

But what I really hate about that policy is the state interfering in the job market in a way they shouldn't. If you've got a zero hour contract and don't like it, find another job, if you can't then be grateful for what you've got. The state sticking it's nose in isn't going to magic a job or extra hours/pay out of nowhere.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 01:09:50
Will be interesting to look back at this thread in 5 years time and see where we are as a nation and what this Tory government have done by then.
I can only see it going one way and that isn't the way I'd like it to. An ever growing selfish non society based on greed and division is what I think will continue to grow. I predict a riot!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 02:00:17
Will be interesting to look back at this thread in 5 years time and see where we are as a nation and what this Tory government have done by then.
I can only see it going one way and that isn't the way I'd like it to. An ever growing selfish non society based on greed and division is what I think will continue to grow. I predict a riot!


 It will be most interesting to see if the nation still exists in 5 years.....Cameron will try to buy off the SNP with some Income Tax devo, maybe it'll work...but the bottom line is, if he loses Scotland, he loses Britain's seat on the Security Council.

 TBF to the fella, he seems to have little interest in foreign affairs, after failing to get a mandate to bomb Syria....as can be seen by lack of interest in Ukraine.

 Maybe it's a good thing....a logical end to the process begun by Edward I.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 06:50:23
If you've got a zero hour contract and don't like it, find another job, if you can't then be grateful for what you've got.

Wow.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 06:55:49
Will be interesting to look back at this thread in 5 years time and see where we are as a nation and what this Tory government have done by then.
I can only see it going one way and that isn't the way I'd like it to. An ever growing selfish non society based on greed and division is what I think will continue to grow. I predict a riot!


I think you will refer to Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

Too many people look into the merits of Politics rather than basic economics and human behaviour.
Socialism has and will never work with greed.
Will say it again and sadly it is exactly this, you are on your own mate.

I only have to look at the behaviour of the CEO in the PLC I work for.
Utter selfish cunt. I have managed teams for many years now and simple values go a long way.
Pressure on people inside and outside of work are immense.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 09:19:25
Unfortunately the politics of personalities is what elections are most about about nowadays. The majority of people haven't got a clue what policies each party subscribe to, apart from generic sound bites and most don't seem bothered to find out.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 09:27:12
Will say it again and sadly it is exactly this, you are on your own mate.


Total and utter bollocks. (Unless you've never benefitted from the emergency services, the NHS, education, transport network, rubbish collection, etc, etc). The problem is there are too many people solely focused on themselves, not on the society they live in. I'm not advocating a socialist state; people should be able to succeed or fail based on their abilities and attitude, but not at the expense of everybody else. That would fragment the country even more.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 09:45:56
Total and utter bollocks. (Unless you've never benefitted from the emergency services, the NHS, education, transport network, rubbish collection, etc, etc). The problem is there are too many people solely focused on themselves, not on the society they live in. I'm not advocating a socialist state; people should be able to succeed or fail based on their abilities and attitude, but not at the expense of everybody else. That would fragment the country even more.
So you think those people voted actually represent you.
Sorry I don't......then some in these high powered place fiddle expenses etc.
Yeah right pillars of society.
You are right people just focus on themselves, very sad but true.
However you can make a difference yourself and with your kids to try to bring them up the right way.
Tough World out there for sure and still believe you are very much on your own.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 10:01:49
Wow.
Indeed


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 10:07:55
Indeed

The only thing that you can ask for is a chance. Then it turns back to you.
Sadly some people are never given that chance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 10:45:38
Will be interesting to look back at this thread in 5 years time and see where we are as a nation and what this Tory government have done by then.
I can only see it going one way and that isn't the way I'd like it to. An ever growing selfish non society based on greed and division is what I think will continue to grow. I predict a riot!


Don't get why this has to be so black and white. So (and this isn't a direct reply to you Artiba it's more a general observation on many comments I've read on line over the last few days) it seems if you voted Conservative you're selfish, uncaring etc, and it's only the defeated labour supporters that wanted social equality etc.

Well I think that's a load of bull, I want a better standard of living for everyone, but my view is to get to that utopia you need a sound economic future. As soon as you delve into the detail and logic behind many of labours policies thes no way I could be happy to see Miliband get the keys to no.10. It'd be extremely damaging to the recovery and that'd mean to keep his promises our debt would grow and grow.

So personally, yes I did vote Tory, but the major reason for that was lack of alternative, their simply wasn't another party available to go for. If you'd offered me another 5 yrs of con/lib coalition I'd have gone for it in a flash, as I said five years ago I like the concept of a well formed coalition.

Looking forward to a higher personal allowance which will benefit millions. Also happy to see the zero hour contract debate fade away, as many are happy using themincluding most of the staff up our local, and unfortunately extra pressure on employers to make staff permanent after a set period would not have led to the desired results, it'd probably result in a logic people losing their jobs.

I won't get into the non-Dom debate but that was something out of nothing to, a headline grabber if ever there was one.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: TheDukeOfBanbury on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 10:57:16
Don't get why this has to be so black and white. So (and this isn't a direct reply to you Artiba it's more a general observation on many comments I've read on line over the last few days) it seems if you voted Conservative you're selfish, uncaring etc, and it's only the defeated labour supporters that wanted social equality etc.

Well I think that's a load of bull, I want a better standard of living for everyone, but my view is to get to that utopia you need a sound economic future. As soon as you delve into the detail and logic behind many of labours policies thes no way I could be happy to see Miliband get the keys to no.10. It'd be extremely damaging to the recovery and that'd mean to keep his promises our debt would grow and grow.

So personally, yes I did vote Tory, but the major reason for that was lack of alternative, their simply wasn't another party available to go for. If you'd offered me another 5 yrs of con/lib coalition I'd have gone for it in a flash, as I said five years ago I like the concept of a well formed coalition.

Looking forward to a higher personal allowance which will benefit millions. Also happy to see the zero hour contract debate fade away, as many are happy using themincluding most of the staff up our local, and unfortunately extra pressure on employers to make staff permanent after a set period would not have led to the desired results, it'd probably result in a logic people losing their jobs.

I won't get into the non-Dom debate but that was something out of nothing to, a headline grabber if ever there was one.

Millions would agree with most of what you have written.
I have heard so many people, including myself, that Milliband couldn't run a bath let alone a Country.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 11:02:22
God knows that the labour party has its faults.  I cringe every time Milliband, Balls etc. jump on the absurdly lazy get out of jail free bandwagon of blaming everything on "the greedy bankers".

But the current Tories have no feel for how to unite a nation in difficult times except through fear.  How Cameron can claim to be a One Nation Tory is beyond me.  The removal of the 50p tax at a time when everyone was being asked to knuckle down and accept the realities of the economic crisis was what summed up the last government for me.

I thought that Balls showed a lot of class when he lost on Friday, especially given how visibly excited the young woman who won it for the Tories was.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 11:37:18
Millions would agree with most of what you have written.
I have heard so many people, including myself, that Milliband couldn't run a bath let alone a Country.


The editor of The New Statesman paper has written a very reasoned article in The Daily Mail as to the why's and wherefores of Labours downfall. Worth reading if you consider yourself to have 20/20 vision politically rather than a skewed and blinkered view either left or right leaning.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 11:45:59
Don't get why this has to be so black and white. So (and this isn't a direct reply to you Artiba it's more a general observation on many comments I've read on line over the last few days) it seems if you voted Conservative you're selfish, uncaring etc, and it's only the defeated labour supporters that wanted social equality etc.

Well I think that's a load of bull, I want a better standard of living for everyone, but my view is to get to that utopia you need a sound economic future. As soon as you delve into the detail and logic behind many of labours policies thes no way I could be happy to see Miliband get the keys to no.10. It'd be extremely damaging to the recovery and that'd mean to keep his promises our debt would grow and grow.

So personally, yes I did vote Tory, but the major reason for that was lack of alternative, their simply wasn't another party available to go for. If you'd offered me another 5 yrs of con/lib coalition I'd have gone for it in a flash, as I said five years ago I like the concept of a well formed coalition.

Looking forward to a higher personal allowance which will benefit millions. Also happy to see the zero hour contract debate fade away, as many are happy using themincluding most of the staff up our local, and unfortunately extra pressure on employers to make staff permanent after a set period would not have led to the desired results, it'd probably result in a logic people losing their jobs.

I won't get into the non-Dom debate but that was something out of nothing to, a headline grabber if ever there was one.
I do think people voted selfishly. They thought "I'm doing ok, I don't want Labour to take that from me" and bought the scaremongering. I am very comfortable myself with only a mortgage (which I'm able to pay more than double the amount a month) to worry about. No other debt and money in the bank. I could so easily have done the same as many Tory voters have. You won't get a better standard of living for all under a Tory government though so I will never vote for them. It is that black and white. People will suffer and that doesn't sit well with me.

I don't understand why people see Labour as unelectable. They had plans and will have drawn money but in a different way to the Tories. The deficit would have taken longer to get down but so what? Does it really matter?
Yes the coalition did inherit a deficit but that deficit would have been there anyway. It's daft to think there would have been a different picture for the nation's financial situation post the crash. Labour did a lot of good during their terms and that has been just brushed under the carpet and forgotten.

Zero hour contracts are awful for many people. These are people on low wages when they do get called into work with unreliable hours on low money when trying to run a household is hard for them. Many still have to draw benefits because of this. Many businesses using these contracts are doing very well and making huge profits. It's becoming like slave labour. A backwards step for the British workforce.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: OOH! SHAUN TAYLOR on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 11:47:21
Could you spare me a couple of grand arriba??  :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: adje on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 11:47:58
God knows that the labour party has its faults.  I cringe every time Milliband, Balls etc. jump on the absurdly lazy get out of jail free bandwagon of blaming everything on "the greedy bankers".

But the current Tories have no feel for how to unite a nation in difficult times except through fear.  How Cameron can claim to be a One Nation Tory is beyond me.  The removal of the 50p tax at a time when everyone was being asked to knuckle down and accept the realities of the economic crisis was what summed up the last government for me.

I thought that Balls showed a lot of class when he lost on Friday, especially given how visibly excited the young woman who won it for the Tories was.
God knows that the labour party has its faults.  I cringe every time Milliband, Balls etc. jump on the absurdly lazy get out of jail free bandwagon of blaming everything on "the greedy bankers".

But the current Tories have no feel for how to unite a nation in difficult times except through fear.  How Cameron can claim to be a One Nation Tory is beyond me.  The removal of the 50p tax at a time when everyone was being asked to knuckle down and accept the realities of the economic crisis was what summed up the last government for me.

I thought that Balls showed a lot of class when he lost on Friday, especially given how visibly excited the young woman who won it for the Tories was.

this is the post that most closely reflects my thoughts on the matter.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 12:27:16
I do think people voted selfishly. They thought "I'm doing ok, I don't want Labour to take that from me" and bought the scaremongering. I am very comfortable myself with only a mortgage (which I'm able to pay more than double the amount a month) to worry about. No other debt and money in the bank. I could so easily have done the same as many Tory voters have. You won't get a better standard of living for all under a Tory government though so I will never vote for them. It is that black and white. People will suffer and that doesn't sit well with me.

I don't understand why people see Labour as unelectable. They had plans and will have drawn money but in a different way to the Tories. The deficit would have taken longer to get down but so what? Does it really matter?
Yes the coalition did inherit a deficit but that deficit would have been there anyway. It's daft to think there would have been a different picture for the nation's financial situation post the crash. Labour did a lot of good during their terms and that has been just brushed under the carpet and forgotten.

Zero hour contracts are awful for many people. These are people on low wages when they do get called into work with unreliable hours on low money when trying to run a household is hard for them. Many still have to draw benefits because of this. Many businesses using these contracts are doing very well and making huge profits. It's becoming like slave labour. A backwards step for the British workforce.

Great post arriba.

Yesterday, I said we now have 2 years of Tory squabbling over how to frame the EU referendum to look forward to, plus how the Union is going to be sorted.  The third key strand, will be can Osborne, make his proposed massive cuts, without social cohesion breaking down further.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 12:57:25
I do think people voted selfishly. They thought "I'm doing ok, I don't want Labour to take that from me" and bought the scaremongering.

I don't.  I think the Tory vote was higher than expected because Labour's proposition was feeble.  Miliband and Balls never articulated a coherent vision and Balls, in particular, had an image that was every bit as toxic as Osborne's.  When you add in the collapse of the Lib Dem vote (speaking as a Lib Dem voter myself) and the lacklustre campaign by UKIP - there was only one other place for those votes to go.  The Tories mopped up not because they were loved but because, unlike Labour, people felt they were competent.

I've heard a lot of scalded Labour supporters in the last few days blaming the rise of the Tory vote on greed and selfishness.  Not only is this misguided from an electoral point of view; it's also plain wrong.  Most of the people who voted that way will have had well-intentioned reasons for doing so and if Labour, which now has a serious brick-by-brick rebuilding job to do, is smart and serious about getting elected again, they could start by talking to a few of their ex-voters to find out why they switched.  If they're not smart, they'll continue insulting the electorate as they have been for the last few days like a jilted lover.  If they choose that route, they're going to find themselves in opposition for quite some time to come.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 13:15:52
I don't.  I think the Tory vote was higher than expected because Labour's proposition was feeble.

There was very little difference between the Tories and Labour in terms of policy, if we had a Labour government today, 2 of the 3 key issues facing the Tories would still be there, namely the Union, and austerity.  Some trimming around the edges, but nothing substantial.

There's no doubt Crosby's tactic of raising the spectre of an SNP/Lab coalition scared off many. I was talking to a lady yesterday, reliant on benefits as a carer for ageing and infirm parents....who was pleased she'd voted Tory as she didn't want Scots in the Parliament... :)



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Swindon Town Fan on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 13:24:36
Long shot, but has anyone got three tickets together in the Don Rogers to swap for two plus the cash for the third obviously, thanks. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Swindon Town Fan on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 13:28:04
Sorry put in wrong section , please ignore


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 13:39:07
University tuition fees... first introduced by Labour...much like what's happening with the NHS - Tories wouldn't be where we are now without Labour opening the door for them....

House price inflation.... mainly due to nimby members of the population not wanting new houses built anywhere...

Social housing construction is a problem but no worse than it was 1997-2010....


Not only that but Labour hit millions of their 'working man' voters by taxing pensions (one of the first things Gordon Brown did as Chancellor in 1997), and then saw final salary pensions for the private sector virtually disappear over the next ten years when they became unaffordable for companies, yet everyone is supposed the subsidise the final salary pensions for the public sector.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 14:05:00
There's no doubt Crosby's tactic of raising the spectre of an SNP/Lab coalition scared off many.

It's an insult to voters to suggest it needed the Tories to point out the prospect of an Lab/SNP and the dangers of it.

The polls were clear that a Lab/SNP coalition was a very likely outcome and especially that Labour couldn't get a majority on their own. Miliband continually came across as weak and Sturgeon had the upper hand in the televised debates. The SNP (primarily Salmond) made it clear they would make the most of it and hold the threat of withdrawal of support over Labour. Sturgeon repeatedly stated she would do anything and everything she could to keep the Tories out of power.

The facts were clear to many and the Tories raising it was just stating the obvious and no more.

For me at least, not wanting the SNP in government doesn't mean I'm anti-Scottish and Cameron needs to ensure their voice is heard as it can't be ignored.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 14:47:52
 By all means feel insulted....

 All polls do is flag up stated voting intentions....how that is interpreted is conjecture.  It's fair enough scare tactics to flag up something imaginary, as it's fair enough for you to believe it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 15:10:18
Don't get why this has to be so black and white. So (and this isn't a direct reply to you Artiba it's more a general observation on many comments I've read on line over the last few days) it seems if you voted Conservative you're selfish, uncaring etc, and it's only the defeated labour supporters that wanted social equality etc.

Well I think that's a load of bull, I want a better standard of living for everyone, but my view is to get to that utopia you need a sound economic future. As soon as you delve into the detail and logic behind many of labours policies thes no way I could be happy to see Miliband get the keys to no.10. It'd be extremely damaging to the recovery and that'd mean to keep his promises our debt would grow and grow.

So personally, yes I did vote Tory, but the major reason for that was lack of alternative, their simply wasn't another party available to go for. If you'd offered me another 5 yrs of con/lib coalition I'd have gone for it in a flash, as I said five years ago I like the concept of a well formed coalition.

Looking forward to a higher personal allowance which will benefit millions. Also happy to see the zero hour contract debate fade away, as many are happy using themincluding most of the staff up our local, and unfortunately extra pressure on employers to make staff permanent after a set period would not have led to the desired results, it'd probably result in a logic people losing their jobs.

I won't get into the non-Dom debate but that was something out of nothing to, a headline grabber if ever there was one.

Agree with this


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 15:29:20
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CEjx05zWgAA3zEL.png)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 15:48:59
a very reasoned article in The Daily Mail .
the perfect example of oxymoron?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 17:44:11
I don't understand why people see Labour as unelectable. They had plans and will have drawn money but in a different way to the Tories. The deficit would have taken longer to get down but so what? Does it really matter?
Yes the coalition did inherit a deficit but that deficit would have been there anyway. It's daft to think there would have been a different picture for the nation's financial situation post the crash. Labour did a lot of good during their terms and that has been just brushed under the carpet and forgotten.

Zero hour contracts are awful for many people. These are people on low wages when they do get called into work with unreliable hours on low money when trying to run a household is hard for them. Many still have to draw benefits because of this. Many businesses using these contracts are doing very well and making huge profits. It's becoming like slave labour. A backwards step for the British workforce.

When the IFS give warnings about labours spending (which just reconfirm many people's views) you take notice. Torys have without doubt a better economical plan, and historically are more trustworthy than labour.

I think within the next four years Boris will be PM and that should be enough to see the Tories home next time around too, sommwe should have anger 10 yrs of decent economic policy, just what the nation needs.

And whilst there may be some (of the few hundred thousand) that are on zero hour contracts who don't like them, there are many of them who do like them, unfortunately there are more important issues, that effect more of the population, which is why it was a strange policy for labour to hang their hat on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 18:31:41
When the IFS give warnings about labours spending (which just reconfirm Mandy's personal views) you take notice. Torys have without doubt a better economical plan, and historically are more trustworthy than labour.

*snigger*  the Tories have won an outright majority for the first time in 23 years.  Part of this exile to the political wasteland was caused by their disastrous economic mismanagement, ending in Black Wednesday, a massive hit to the tax payer, and hundreds of thousands plunged into debt, house repossesion and negative equity.  My then brother in law was one of them....lost his home, business, and got declared bankrupt.  

On top of this, came the usual Tory achilles heel of corruption, it tends to come in many forms....mostly snout in some sort of trough, our man Buckland showing some promise here, so will be worth keeping an eye on.  

My fave from that last Tory administration, was a fella called Stephen Milligan, bit of a rising star, found dead hanging upside down in stockings and suspenders, tied up in electric flex, apparently autoasphixiated.

Tories do tend to lose a few during their 5 year term, so probably will want to cosy up a bit with the DUPfor a bit of added security.

That last Tory admin, was brought down by the divide on Europe....seing how this will pan out of over the next 2-3 years is completely unpredictable, and an outcome where the Tories completely implode again is just as likely as your simple scenario.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 20:19:01
The DUP are basically Conservatives (NI Branch), so they effectively have 339 seats.  That's a majority of 28.  Salmond's language since the result has been bellicose and aggressive, and I think he's some way off with his prediction/wet dream that it's all going belly up imminently.  The EU vote is a potential pitfall for Cameron, but I'd be surprised if he doesn't manage to find a way to worm out of it.  He won't want to be John Major Mk II.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 20:27:33
The DUP are basically Conservatives (NI Branch), so they effectively have 339 seats.  That's a majority of 28.  Salmond's language since the result has been bellicose and aggressive, and I think he's some way off with his prediction/wet dream that it's all going belly up imminently.  The EU vote is a potential pitfall for Cameron, but I'd be surprised if he doesn't manage to find a way to worm out of it.  He won't want to be John Major Mk II.

Here's a snippet about the DUP.

Quote
They have already avoided introducing the bedroom tax and have committed to supporting the abolition of the charge for the rest of the UK. They will also support more aggressive pursuit of tax evaders. They will refuse to support increasing VAT. All of this suggests that the DUP really is every bit as willing to strike a deal with Labour as with the Tories

Economic incompetence, or sleaze, or sometimes both, has done for every Tory PM in my life time.   Macmillan, the sleaze of the Profumo and Vassal Affairs, Douglas Home, part of the same process. 

Heath, economic incompetence.....3 day week. 

Thatcher, economic incompetence, the Poll tax riots....not much fun when you are, as I was, one of many thousands faced with jail, for refusal to pay an iniquitous tax.

Major, economic incompetence and sleaze...

Cameron will do well to avoid completing the set...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 20:39:45
My fave from that last Tory administration, was a fella called Stephen Milligan, bit of a rising star, found dead hanging upside down in stockings and suspenders, tied up in electric flex, apparently autoasphixiated.

Not sure I get you. Your 'fave' from an administration was someone dying. Very classy Reg, irrespective of circumstance.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 20:51:26
Not sure I get you. Your 'fave' from an administration was someone dying. Very classy Reg, irrespective of circumstance.

You can't see the humour in a middle aged man wearing suspenders, asphyxiating himself with electric cable with orange peel in his mouth whilst banging one out? Bet it's a bundle of laughs round your gaff.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 21:03:24
Yeah me and the kids are always having a laugh about people dying.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 21:07:10
Not sure I get you. Your 'fave' from an administration was someone dying. Very classy Reg, irrespective of circumstance.

We all die sooner or later....the thing about Milligan was that at the time the Tories were trying to promote "back to basics" extolling a return to traditional family values, like thrift and hard work, military service and doffing of caps to our natural betters from the  ruling classes.

Then some Oxford educated, Old Etonian toff, ends up dead with an orange in his gob, apparently during a bout of onanism.

Major, at the time kept quiet about his boning of Edwina Currie....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 21:21:23
Anti government protest in London after 1 day then. Gonna get messy


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Hammer on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 21:46:31
Anti government protest in London after 1 day then. Gonna get messy

Hopefully there will be some strategically placed snipers then. Democracy.....pffft.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Saturday, May 9, 2015, 22:11:14
Hopefully there will be some strategically placed snipers then. Democracy.....pffft.
It's becoming rather clear that to many  democracy only exists where the right people are elected.

Similar to the extensive fuss about FPTP and the lack of Green seats which seems to overlook the fact that UKIP would have won similar... I don't recall PR including a clause to allow choice between good and bad!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 00:58:39
Yeah me and the kids are always having a laugh about people dying.

My kids love the "dumb ways to die" song, you should check it out, asphyxiation and orange peel don't feature though iirc.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 08:17:06
I don't understand why people see Labour as unelectable.

That's because you believe that everyone ought to vote Labour for the reasons that you do.  The problem is that they don't and won't.

In my lifetime:
Wilson and Blair have won general elections.
Callaghan, Foot, Kinnoch, Brown and Milliband have lost general elections.

I won't insult your intelligence by asking you if you can see the difference between the two groups because it's obvious. The only possible exception is Callaghan who was destroyed by the winter of discontent. 

The majority of people in this country want to vote Labour.  When they feel they can't trust the Labour leadership they reluctantly switch to the Tories who are adept at exploiting that fear because they know it is realistically the only way they can gain power.

People want social democracy in this country but if all they are offered is socialism or conservatism then they will choose conservatism.

Next week the media will be full of Labour politicians wringing their hands and saying that the reason that they lost the election was that they failed to appeal to the aspirational middle classes and failed to convince people that they could be trusted. No shit Sherlock. 

As a result of the self-indulgent choice of electing Milliband and his fellow travellers to 'lead' the Labour party we are now faced with 5 years of Tory rule with the only alternative (gleefully anticipated by the moronic left) that riots and Tory EU divisions will bugger up our country sufficiently to force an early election. 

Yet again the Labour party have betrayed the people of Britain and left us at the mercy of a Tory party with renewed confidence that they can pursue their self-interest.  Well done guys, good job.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 08:32:48
My kids love the "dumb ways to die" song, you should check it out, asphyxiation and orange peel don't feature though iirc.

I'll have a look!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 08:40:55
I'd with a lot of that.  But the 'self-indulgent choice of electing Miliband' was due to the self-indulgent choice of the unions more than any other group.  And I don't see anyone in the Labour Party taking the unions to task over this.  It needs to happen to ensure the mistake is not made again.

It's a horrible position to be in.  There is a lot of comment, like yours above, that Labour needs to move towards social democracy; and there is other comment (particularly in Scotland) that it needs to move much further over to the left.  It really is back to the drawing board.

And one more thing...charisma does matter.  I have heard a lot of people in recent months say that Miliband's lack of personal appeal shouldn't matter because his policies should do the talking; a kind of distancing from the Blair/Mandelson period when spin and image were more important.  But to pretend that personal presence/charisma is in no way important massively over-simplifies the issue.  Could you honestly see Miliband going toe-to-toe with Obama or Merkel in negotiations?  Of course not.  They would have him for dinner.  Miliband was seen as weak.  Probably the biggest single reason he was unelectable.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 08:47:44
And one more thing...charisma does matter.

Its worse than that. Boris Johnson has built a entire political career off of the back of mad hair.

That's not to say behind the bumbling buffoon there isn't an intelligent man, more that I doubt this influenced him becoming mayor of London anywhere near as much as his hair did.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 08:58:20
BJ has played a blinder during his career. He'll win the next general election at a canter, if the Tory's select him as next leader, though he may end up losing his one Scottish MP, as he's very anti Scottish.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 09:20:13
It is weird the way that some people (Reagan, Clinton, Boris) are viewed with affection and are forgiven for every mistake and lie.  "Oh that's just Boris being Boris" is said with a smile almost like a doting grandparent.

Others get lacerated for just one misjudgement or poor choice of words.

If we could bottle and sell it we could clear the national debt in a weekend.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 09:21:09
The power of being a likeable individual, like you're actually deep down not that nice a person.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 10:40:00
Now that the hype, claim, counter claim, spin, sounds bites and propaganda has more or less calmed down there is one fundamental fact that EVERYONE has to accept and abide by. The people have spoken. You'll get your chance in five years to decide again.

Of course I expect the bitter socialists on here will try to shout down my reasoned and true statement in some way, mainly by saying the government won't last that long, however, as it is that is wishful thinking and guess work. As it stands it's five years, deal with it.

You will of course have an opportunity in two years to get excited again with the referendum on our EU position. Save yourselves for that. For those of you undecided about our membership under the current "rules" it is worth noting that my son who us currently on Erasmus in Germany till July said that the German media and by default government (though they'd not openly admit it) were rooting for a Labour win. I wonder why. Here's a clue ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££.

Junker seems to have changed his stance since Friday morning too, two faced beaurocratic unelected communist shyte.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 11:50:35
Now that the hype, claim, counter claim, spin, sounds bites and propaganda has more or less calmed down there is one fundamental fact that EVERYONE has to accept and abide by. The people have spoken. You'll get your chance in five years to decide again.

Of course I expect the bitter socialists on here will try to shout down my reasoned and true statement in some way, mainly by saying the government won't last that long, however, as it is that is wishful thinking and guess work. As it stands it's five years, deal with it.

You will of course have an opportunity in two years to get excited again with the referendum on our EU position. Save yourselves for that. For those of you undecided about our membership under the current "rules" it is worth noting that my son who us currently on Erasmus in Germany till July said that the German media and by default government (though they'd not openly admit it) were rooting for a Labour win. I wonder why. Here's a clue ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££.

Junker seems to have changed his stance since Friday morning too, two faced beaurocratic unelected communist shyte.

bureaucratic, it's bureaucratic

Harold Wilson famously said a week is a long time in politics, so 5 years is even longer. The people have spoken, but in a sense no-one listens, as the present voting system enables.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 11:59:31
The people have spoken. You'll get your chance in five years to decide again.

Now that the hype, claim, counter claim, spin, sounds bites and propaganda has more or less calmed down there is one fundamental fact that EVERYONE has to accept and abide by. The people have spoken. You'll get your chance in five years to decide again.

Of course I expect the bitter socialists on here will try to shout down my reasoned and true statement in some way, mainly by saying the government won't last that long, however, as it is that is wishful thinking and guess work. As it stands it's five years, deal with it.

You will of course have an opportunity in two years to get excited again with the referendum on our EU position. Save yourselves for that. For those of you undecided about our membership under the current "rules" it is worth noting that my son who us currently on Erasmus in Germany till July said that the German media and by default government (though they'd not openly admit it) were rooting for a Labour win. I wonder why. Here's a clue ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££.

Junker seems to have changed his stance since Friday morning too, two faced beaurocratic unelected communist shyte.

63.1% of the people did not vote Conservative.  The people have indeed spoken, but our electoral system ensures they are ignored.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:32:00
63.1% of the people did not vote Conservative.  The people have indeed spoken, but our electoral system ensures they are ignored.

I believe a similar figure kept labour in clover. The system is the system FPTP. You won't hear the sweaty socks moaning will you? You have five years to brood. Of course when your taxes start to fall I'm sure all you conscious socialists will hand it back to the treasury ...........


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:37:31
bureaucratic, it's bureaucratic

Harold Wilson famously said a week is a long time in politics, so 5 years is even longer. The people have spoken, but in a sense no-one listens, as the present voting system enables.
yeah yeah  :fishing:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:40:18
I believe a similar figure kept labour in clover. The system is the system FPTP. You won't hear the sweaty socks moaning will you? You have five years to brood. Of course when your taxes start to fall I'm sure all you conscious socialists will hand it back to the treasury ...........

It was wrong when it put Labour in power, too.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:41:21
Under pure PR we'd have a Tory/UKIP coalition passing 50% of the vote so be careful what you wish for. My thoughts on the electoral system are already in this thread, but the people did not vote for a socialist utopia only to be ignored, I'm afraid.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:44:43
Under pure PR we'd have a Tory/UKIP coalition passing 50% of the vote so be careful what you wish for. My thoughts on the electoral system are already in this thread, but the people did not vote for a socialist utopia only to be ignored, I'm afraid.

On Thursday's votes yes. However if PR had been used perhaps the general public wouldn't have voted in the same way. I think it's too simplistic to say if PR was used we'd have 'this or that'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:47:03
On Thursday's votes yes. However if PR had been used perhaps the general public wouldn't have voted in the same way. I think it's too simplistic to say if PR was used we'd have 'this or that'.

Exactly that, I know a few who altered their voting to one of the big 2 rather than a smaller party ( greens/ukip ) as seen as a wasted vote.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:49:24
Pro Labour supporters wouldn't be complaining about the voting system if they had got in..  It's only when the other people get in that the voting system is corrupt, wouldn't be getting a mention otherwise..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:52:19
Pro Labour supporters wouldn't be complaining about the voting system if they had got in..  It's only when the other people get in that the voting system is corrupt, wouldn't be getting a mention otherwise..

Have heard more complaints from the smaller party supporters than labour
SNPs 7% for 56 seats is a pisstake compared to the amount the Greens/Ukip polled for their single seat each


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:54:07
I believe a similar figure kept labour in clover. The system is the system FPTP. You won't hear the sweaty socks moaning will you? You have five years to brood. Of course when your taxes start to fall I'm sure all you conscious socialists will hand it back to the treasury ...........

Actually I'm doing fine financially, and I don't particularly want a tax cut, I'd rather live in a society where the poor and the vulnerable are looked after, not blamed for the financial situation the world finds itself in. I'd rather have a health system that works, and a welfare state, and I'll sleep easier in my bed knowing there aren't people sleeping on the streets.

I'm happy to pay tax and live in a civilised society, called me old fashioned, but rich people living in gated communities is not the sort of country I want my children growing up in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:56:49
Under pure PR we'd have a Tory/UKIP coalition passing 50% of the vote so be careful what you wish for. My thoughts on the electoral system are already in this thread, but the people did not vote for a socialist utopia only to be ignored, I'm afraid.

I don't think we would.  The Tory vote included a good deal of tactical votes designed to keep Miliband out of Number 10.  Tactical voting would have been negligible under PR.  The Tory/UKIP combined total may have just crept over 50%, but only just.  And besides...if that's the will of the electorate, it's the result that should be reflected in Parliament.

The present system is a farce.  I almost struggle to call it democratic.  It collects votes, distorts them, and then spits out a result that no one voted for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:57:53
Some excellent debate on these pages and I've enjoyed catching up on it.

We have a first past the post system and I am happy to live by that. I do think things would have been different under a proportional representation system as others have said. The greens in particular I think would do very well.

Boris Johnson is an absolute cunt by the way. The scruffy haired likeable buffoon people see is in reality a nasty piece of work.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 13:12:28
I don't think we would.  The Tory vote included a good deal of tactical votes designed to keep Miliband out of Number 10.  Tactical voting would have been negligible under PR.  The Tory/UKIP combined total may have just crept over 50%, but only just.  And besides...if that's the will of the electorate, it's the result that should be reflected in Parliament.

The present system is a farce.  I almost struggle to call it democratic.  It collects votes, distorts them, and then spits out a result that no one voted for.

Exactly.

I don't choose the government, I have but one vote.  However, I believe the make up of parliament should be roughly reflective of the votes cast.  This is a point of principle, one I have held for well over 20 years, regardless of party in power.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 13:14:54
Under pure PR we'd have a Tory/UKIP coalition passing 50% of the vote so be careful what you wish for. My thoughts on the electoral system are already in this thread, but the people did not vote for a socialist utopia only to be ignored, I'm afraid.

We don't like UKIP so let's not change the system.....that's sounds very democratic and free.

I'm not Labour but hate the Tories so let's bring in a system to stop them getting in power?

It's first past the post....it was very clear at the start, so that's what it is until it changes.

Like Preston being 20 points clear than Chesterfield....it's the rules and that's that.

The SNP getting major power and Labour losing so many seats may see a change...I'm hoping.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 13:22:06
Some excellent debate on these pages and I've enjoyed catching up on it.

Yeah have to say it's been a good thread on the whole. Good to see you can still have a good debate on the TEF.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 13:23:27
Under pure PR we'd have a Tory/UKIP coalition passing 50% of the vote so be careful what you wish for. My thoughts on the electoral system are already in this thread, but the people did not vote for a socialist utopia only to be ignored, I'm afraid.

Although a Labour man, I voted for the AV thing at the kick Clegg referendum, if the people vote for a Tory/UKIP coalition, then so be it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 14:18:57
We don't like UKIP so let's not change the system.....that's sounds very democratic and free.

I'm not Labour but hate the Tories so let's bring in a system to stop them getting in power?

It's first past the post....it was very clear at the start, so that's what it is until it changes.

Like Preston being 20 points clear than Chesterfield....it's the rules and that's that.

The SNP getting major power and Labour losing so many seats may see a change...I'm hoping.

Apologies if it wasn't clear but you seem to have read my post in the opposite way to how it was intended: I dislike everything UKIP stand for but to get 1 in 8 votes and one seat undermines our democracy. That system is wrong. Yes, we all knew it beforehand and I'm not saying the results of the election are invalid, but it's a system that needs to be reformed for an era of multi-party politics.

The only point I was trying to make in the post you've quoted is that there isn't some left wing majority being ignored because of the system that some of my friends seem to think there is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 14:37:30


I am now educated ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 16:31:48
I dislike everything UKIP stand for but to get 1 in 8 votes and one seat undermines our democracy. That system is wrong. Yes, we all knew it beforehand and I'm not saying the results of the election are invalid, but it's a system that needs to be reformed for an era of multi-party politics.

The problem with moving from FPTP to PR is losing the connection between the MP and the constituency. Even in the best case of a mixed system, you'd end up with far bigger constituencies and a group of MP's with no real regional affiliation. Sure the link between MP and constituency is questionable at times, but I reckon we should be moving more towards that than voting simply for a party. Plus the argument that FPTP delivers more stable governments has held up again.

Whilst the smaller parties such as the Greens and UKIP might not end up with many MP's it does't mean their voters aren't heard or their views accounted for. As they receive more votes the larger parties will change their policies - such as more renewable energy and recycling, or holding a referendum on EU membership.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 17:14:17
If you want a working model of a PR clusterfuck look no further than Italy. They change their government more often than some ppl change their underwear. Without a strong lead, left, right or centre you'll end up horse trading to the eight degree and achieve nothing but chaos and uncertainty.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 17:54:51
Some of these comments are pretty funny and some are actually quite sensible.

FPTP. It's the system we have and it's the system that every voter has to take into consideration prior to placing their cross. The Conservatives and Labour, certainly until Thursday had absolutely no reason to change it. Is it fair? No. Will it change in the next Parliament? Almost certainly not.

I could go on and on about Labour fuck up's, since '97: Lisbon treaty, Open borders, Taxation in all areas, Devolution, Illegal wars, PFI, GP contracts, Ridiculous over expansion of the welfare state, Tax credits, Economic policy built on debt, Housing policy, Lack of regulation over the Banking industry, Profligacy, Lack of contingency planning, NHS targets, Police targets to name but a few. That would just be fighting yesterday's battle, not that they should be forgotten of course.

The fact is, any sensible person could see that the Labour party couldn't accept, or even understand, not that they caused the global financial crisis, but that they left the the UK in a precarious state when it arrived. The fact that they wouldn't admit to that is, as far as I'm concerned, the deciding factor for most voters and the reason why the Conservatives won by so many seats.

Arriba and Reg can bore us to death with their tired old prejudices about the Tories but they need to remember that MOST people work for a living, pay their own way and have no problem contributing to society financially, and more often than not in other ways. They also need to remember that without money earners, it's back to subsistence farming for everyone.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 18:05:10
Some of these comments are pretty funny and some are actually quite sensible.

FPTP. It's the system we have and it's the system that every voter has to take into consideration prior to placing their cross. The Conservatives and Labour, certainly until Thursday had absolutely no reason to change it. Is it fair? No. Will it change in the next Parliament? Almost certainly not.

I could go on and on about Labour fuck up's, since '97: Lisbon treaty, Open borders, Taxation in all areas, Devolution, Illegal wars, PFI, GP contracts, Ridiculous over expansion of the welfare state, Tax credits, Economic policy built on debt, Housing policy, Lack of regulation over the Banking industry, Profligacy, Lack of contingency planning, NHS targets, Police targets to name but a few. That would just be fighting yesterday's battle, not that they should be forgotten of course.

The fact is, any sensible person could see that the Labour party couldn't accept, or even understand, not that they caused the global financial crisis, but that they left the the UK in a precarious state when it arrived. The fact that they wouldn't admit to that is, as far as I'm concerned, the deciding factor for most voters and the reason why the Conservatives won by so many seats.

Arriba and Reg can bore us to death with their tired old prejudices about the Tories but they need to remember that MOST people work for a living, pay their own way and have no problem contributing to society financially, and more often than not in other ways. They also need to remember that without money earners, it's back to subsistence farming for everyone.

Exactly. Though you'll have to accept a plate of acerbic and barbed comments with a pinch of denial and a dash of self righteousness and served on a huge pile of moral high ground. Washed down with bottled beer and champagne socialism.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 18:05:25
Some of these comments are pretty funny and some are actually quite sensible.

FPTP. It's the system we have and it's the system that every voter has to take into consideration prior to placing their cross. The Conservatives and Labour, certainly until Thursday had absolutely no reason to change it. Is it fair? No. Will it change in the next Parliament? Almost certainly not.

I could go on and on about Labour fuck up's, since '97: Lisbon treaty, Open borders, Taxation in all areas, Devolution, Illegal wars, PFI, GP contracts, Ridiculous over expansion of the welfare state, Tax credits, Economic policy built on debt, Housing policy, Lack of regulation over the Banking industry, Profligacy, Lack of contingency planning, NHS targets, Police targets to name but a few. That would just be fighting yesterday's battle, not that they should be forgotten of course.

The fact is, any sensible person could see that the Labour party couldn't accept, or even understand, not that they caused the global financial crisis, but that they left the the UK in a precarious state when it arrived. The fact that they wouldn't admit to that is, as far as I'm concerned, the deciding factor for most voters and the reason why the Conservatives won by so many seats.

Arriba and Reg can bore us to death with their tired old prejudices about the Tories but they need to remember that MOST people work for a living, pay their own way and have no problem contributing to society financially, and more often than not in other ways. They also need to remember that without money earners, it's back to subsistence farming for everyone.

How did the BNP go this time round?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 18:14:36
How did the BNP go this time round?
Nearly as well as Labour...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 18:16:52
How did the BNP go this time round?

Give it a rest comrade Smeeton. Your lot fucked it up and lost. Save your bitter vitriol and bile for five years time.


Title: Re:
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 18:21:35
soapy tit wank...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 18:46:03


Arriba and Reg can bore us to death with their tired old prejudices about the Tories but they need to remember that MOST people work for a living, pay their own way and have no problem contributing to society financially, and more often than not in other ways. They also need to remember that without money earners, it's back to subsistence farming for everyone.

Why would I have a problem with any of  that? I'm fully aware thanks. Makes no difference to my opinions.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:12:08
Why would I have a problem with any of  that? I'm fully aware thanks. Makes no difference to my opinions.
In which case you should, perhaps, consider the world's reality as a opposed to your silly 'ideals'?

Anyone would think that a grown man with a family and a mortgage to pay for may have a slight comprehension that someone has to pay for stuff...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:19:08
 why are many people not happy to "contribute" why do they search out loopholes so they can avoid "contributing to society"? Why do many big "money earners" avoid taxation? Why do many of these big "money earners" exploit people ie their staff?
That is the reality.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:32:01
Good to hear some of the Labour leader candidates coming out today and stating that it was their negative campaign that lost them the election.  Spent too much time commenting on the last 5 years of coalition failings rather than setting out their plans and talking about what they are going to do if elected. 

A bit late now mind you, even so it's good to hear them coming out and admitting it, something that they have not been good at doing since their last stint.  They still wouldn't have won with that muppet in charge but it is a positive sign that the potential new leaders might attempt to learn from their mistakes and make a fight of it in 5 years time.  I look forward to having a real choice then.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:32:15
The problem with moving from FPTP to PR is losing the connection between the MP and the constituency. Even in the best case of a mixed system, you'd end up with far bigger constituencies and a group of MP's with no real regional affiliation. Sure the link between MP and constituency is questionable at times, but I reckon we should be moving more towards that than voting simply for a party. Plus the argument that FPTP delivers more stable governments has held up again.

Whilst the smaller parties such as the Greens and UKIP might not end up with many MP's it does't mean their voters aren't heard or their views accounted for. As they receive more votes the larger parties will change their policies - such as more renewable energy and recycling, or holding a referendum on EU membership.

You would but, in all seriousness, I don't see that as much of a problem.  How many people, honestly, call on their own MP to bat for them?  Not many.  Is Robert Buckland out there now fighting for the interests of people in the southern half of Swindon, for example?  No.  He'll be doing what he's told by Conservative Party whips.

So I don't think the constituency MP link is that important.  But if it absolutely had to be retained, you could give MP's a weighted vote in the lobbies, in proportion to the votes/MP ratio.  That way for each vote of a Tory MP:

  • each Labour MP would get 1.18 votes;
  • each SNP MP would have 0.76 votes;
  • each Lib Dem MP would have 8.82 votes;
  • the Green MP would have 33.80 votes; and
  • the UKIP MP would have 113.34 votes.

Sound preposterous?  Yes, it does.  But it would be more logical and fairer than the current system.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:32:35
In which case you should, perhaps, consider the world's reality as a opposed to your silly 'ideals'?

Anyone would think that a grown man with a family and a mortgage to pay for may have a slight comprehension that someone has to pay for stuff...

Wow. Your cynical view of the world is thoroughly depressing (to me at least. You seem to like it).  I'd prefer to live in a society based on Arriba's "silly ideals" anyday.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 20:00:25
why are many people not happy to "contribute" why do they search out loopholes so they can avoid "contributing to society"? Why do many big "money earners" avoid taxation? Why do many of these big "money earners" exploit people ie their staff?
That is the reality.

Look, I support businesses that make a profit by doing business in the UK paying corporation tax in on profit made in this country. Who wouldn't and why wouldn't they?. Your problem there of course, lies with the EU. You can take all your profit from the biggest economy but divert it through licensing agreements and other tools through to the lowest corporation tax constituencies, perfectly legally and within EU rules. As the CEO, with a legal obligation to investors, whether they be Corporate or individual, what would you?

You have clearly not got a fucking clue about business or economics.

As for your argument about 'tax avoidance' let me say this: I pay the same percentage amount as everyone else, you can fuck off if you think you have the right to take any more off me. We're all equal, after all...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 20:05:01
You would but, in all seriousness, I don't see that as much of a problem.  How many people, honestly, call on their own MP to bat for them?  Not many.  Is Robert Buckland out there now fighting for the interests of people in the southern half of Swindon, for example?  No.  He'll be doing what he's told by Conservative Party whips.

So I don't think the constituency MP link is that important.  But if it absolutely had to be retained, you could give MP's a weighted vote in the lobbies, in proportion to the votes/MP ratio.  That way for each vote of a Tory MP:

  • each Labour MP would get 1.18 votes;
  • each SNP MP would have 0.76 votes;
  • each Lib Dem MP would have 8.82 votes;
  • the Green MP would have 33.80 votes; and
  • the UKIP MP would have 113.34 votes.

Sound preposterous?  Yes, it does.  But it would be more logical and fairer than the current system.

Talking of fractions of votes, the Lib Dem constitution states that a new leader must secure at least a 10% vote of the Parliamentary MP's......in their case now 0.8% of an MP  :)


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 20:06:08
We're all equal, after all...

But some are more equal than others ...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 20:11:59
I do regret the Lib Dem wipe out.  They have been punished far more (in my view, anyway) than was warranted for going in to government.  Did the Lib Dem voters of 2010 honestly want them to remain a party of protest for all time?  Really?  For the first time in years, they have actually enacted their some of their policies - the increasing of the income tax threshold being a good example.  And in exchange, yes, they have had to give some ground on others.  The tuition fees-related punishment being meted out is, for me, way overdone.

I've never been closer to actually joining a political party than I am right now.  Liberalism needs a champion more than ever.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 20:13:55
I don't expect many to share that view, by the way.  Just the way I feel.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 20:17:13
I do regret the Lib Dem wipe out.  They have been punished far more (in my view, anyway) than was warranted for going in to government.  Did the Lib Dem voters of 2010 honestly want them to remain a party of protest for all time?  Really?  For the first time in years, they have actually enacted their some of their policies - the increasing of the income tax threshold being a good example.  And in exchange, yes, they have had to give some ground on others.  The tuition fees-related punishment being meted out is, for me, way overdone.

I've never been closer to actually joining a political party than I am right now.  Liberalism needs a champion more than ever.

Do it.  It's fun to see democracy operating at its grassroots. 



Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 20:25:38
I do regret the Lib Dem wipe out.  They have been punished far more (in my view, anyway) than was warranted for going in to government.  Did the Lib Dem voters of 2010 honestly want them to remain a party of protest for all time?  Really?  For the first time in years, they have actually enacted their some of their policies - the increasing of the income tax threshold being a good example.  And in exchange, yes, they have had to give some ground on others.  The tuition fees-related punishment being meted out is, for me, way overdone.

I've never been closer to actually joining a political party than I am right now.  Liberalism needs a champion more than ever.
Like most people who earn their own money, the tuition fee fuck up they made actually means fuck all. Most importantly for me was smarmy, patronising way Clegg spoke, combined with the fact that their economic policy was fucking shit.

That and the fact that they were, almost to a man, complete fucking wazzock's. The women were even worse. Having said that, Danny Alexander was almost convincing. Apart from the shite he spoke of course...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 20:25:39
Thank you, Reg.  That's the nudge I needed.  I just have.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 20:25:49
I don't expect many to share that view, by the way.  Just the way I feel.

I'm in a similar position. I didn't vote for my local lib dem candidate as he was running a very negative campaign which annoyed me no end. I also didn't particularly like Clegg, although not purely on the grounds of the tuition fee fiasco as many did. But at the end of it all, they're probably closest aligned to my personal views on most issues, and, after a few years of a conservative majority, people may have more sympathy for the job they did in government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 20:29:03
Like most people who earn their own money, the tuition fee fuck up they made actually means fuck all. Most importantly for me was smarmy, patronising way Clegg spoke, combined with the fact that their economic policy was fucking shit.

That and the fact that they were, almost to a man, complete fucking wazzock's. The women were even worse. Having said that, Danny Alexander was almost convincing. Apart from the shite he spoke of course...

Socially, I'm quite liberal.  But what made feel able to vote for them again this time was that their fiscal policies were actually quite sensible.  They would have been more fiscally prudent than Labour or the SNP, which - for the next 5 years or so, anyway - I personally believe is going to be necessary.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 20:34:07
Look, I support businesses that make a profit by doing business in the UK paying corporation tax in on profit made in this country. Who wouldn't and why wouldn't they?. Your problem there of course, lies with the EU. You can take all your profit from the biggest economy but divert it through licensing agreements and other tools through to the lowest corporation tax constituencies, perfectly legally and within EU rules. As the CEO, with a legal obligation to investors, whether they be Corporate or individual, what would you?

You have clearly not got a fucking clue about business or economics.

As for your argument about 'tax avoidance' let me say this: I pay the same percentage amount as everyone else, you can fuck off if you think you have the right to take any more off me. We're all equal, after all...


But you said people are happy to pay for it when in reality there is plenty of evidence that they are not. They are avoiding paying regardless of the reasons how. That contradicts your original comment directed at Reg and myself.
Why anyone who voted Labour would have had a problem with people paying their way is beyond me. I think that is the way it should be.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 20:58:42


But you said people are happy to pay for it when in reality there is plenty of evidence that they are not. They are avoiding paying regardless of the reasons how. That contradicts your original comment directed at Reg and myself.
Why anyone who voted Labour would have had a problem with people paying their way is beyond me. I think that is the way it should be.

I said most people are prepared to contribute. Most people don't have a problem chipping in for those that can't. They get pissed of off chipping in for those that won't.

If I could avoid paying for someone who can't be arsed I would, anyone who pays even the smallest percentage of tax would.

People like you however, seem to equate, rather stupidly in my opinion, a reduction in free money to be an attack on 'the most vulnerable in our society' when it's actually nothing of the sort.

How did your reduction in taxpayers money because you have a house bigger than you need go down? It went down like a sack of shit because the people that pay for it realised that it wasn't a fucking 'tax', it was a reduction in free money paid for people who pay taxes.

Give it up. Your beliefs bear no relation to reality and if you continue down this road, you will be consigned to sharing seats with the minor parties for decades


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 21:03:52
Give it up. Your beliefs bear no relation to reality and if you continue down this road, you will be consigned to sharing seats with the minor parties for decades

Im not sure Arriba is actually in charge of setting Labour Party policy is he? Shame though, he'd get my vote


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 21:12:43
I said most people are prepared to contribute. Most people don't have a problem chipping in for those that can't. They get pissed of off chipping in for those that won't.

If I could avoid paying for someone who can't be arsed I would, anyone who pays even the smallest percentage of tax would.

People like you however, seem to equate, rather stupidly in my opinion, a reduction in free money to be an attack on 'the most vulnerable in our society' when it's actually nothing of the sort.

How did your reduction in taxpayers money because you have a house bigger than you need go down? It went down like a sack of shit because the people that pay for it realised that it wasn't a fucking 'tax', it was a reduction in free money paid for people who pay taxes.

Give it up. Your beliefs bear no relation to reality and if you continue down this road, you will be consigned to sharing seats with the minor parties for decades
In your haste to insult me you attribute opinions and views that I don't have. You assume too much.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 21:28:10
I do regret the Lib Dem wipe out.  They have been punished far more (in my view, anyway) than was warranted for going in to government.  Did the Lib Dem voters of 2010 honestly want them to remain a party of protest for all time?  Really?  For the first time in years, they have actually enacted their some of their policies - the increasing of the income tax threshold being a good example.  And in exchange, yes, they have had to give some ground on others.  The tuition fees-related punishment being meted out is, for me, way overdone.

I've never been closer to actually joining a political party than I am right now.  Liberalism needs a champion more than ever.

I feel the same. I hate myself for switching my vote from them to the Tories, nothing to do with them - just the Lab/SNP risk. I'm not convinced they did anything wrong in most people's eyes, they just got caught in the crossfire.

I've been thinking of joining for a while and decided today is the day. Except their website won't accept my bank details.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 22:04:15
I feel the same. I hate myself for switching my vote from them to the Tories, nothing to do with them - just the Lab/SNP risk. I'm not convinced they did anything wrong in most people's eyes, they just got caught in the crossfire.

I've been thinking of joining for a while and decided today is the day. Except their website won't accept my bank details.
Bloody hell we are a little Lib Dem enclave as I have been thinking same... not sure about the minimum or recommended membership fee?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 22:12:52
When I joined earlier this evening, there were a range of payment amounts on offer - but £25 was pre-populated...so I went with that.  Only afterwards did I see that £70 was the 'recommended amount'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 22:34:28
They don't explain the membership fee very well, £12 minimum, £70 recommended. I'm sure that recommended figure is new as I don't recall seeing it on their website before.

Apparently their membership is up 5k since the election, about a 10% increase.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RWB Robin on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 22:45:46
My wife and I will also be joining....but I will be hoping for a thorough review of what the party is about. It is not enough just to say that you will be the moderating influence on left or right.....there has to be a distinctive and, I would hope, courageous vision of what 'liberal values' actually are.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Sunday, May 10, 2015, 22:56:03
And Ive joined the labour party.

Im not going to stand by and watch again.  Its time to get active.

Mind you I live in Chippenham so Ive not got a chance in hell of ever seeing a labour mp but its what I believe in.  Me and the other 3 lefties in town will have a lovely time.  Until we end up fighting over the one copy of the guardian that comes into the town and start splinter groups.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Monday, May 11, 2015, 00:12:34
I don't expect many to share that view, by the way.  Just the way I feel.

Reflects my view entirely. I'd do the same if I had a vote in the UK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, May 11, 2015, 07:57:25
Reflects my view entirely. I'd do the same if I had a vote in the UK.

When do/did you lose the right to vote in the UK?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Monday, May 11, 2015, 09:28:01
When do/did you lose the right to vote in the UK?

After 15 years away. The UK shares its vote expiry policy with countries like Malta, Denmark and Ireland - you can understand how small countries like Ireland with large overseas populations would be concerned about their results being skewed by their ex-pats. The USA, France, Germany and Italy are among many countries that allow a vote to all passport-holders by right.

I used to get upset about not having a right to vote in anyone's national election, so I'm looking into getting French nationality to be able to vote where politics actually affects my daily life. Then you really will be able to call me a

cum filled frog clunge


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, May 11, 2015, 10:16:09
I assume you have permanent residency status? Is that not enough to vote in the French system then? Seems strange that you would be allowed to stay indefinitely but have no say on how the country is being run.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 11, 2015, 10:21:45
I assume you have permanent residency status? Is that not enough to vote in the French system then? Seems strange that you would be allowed to stay indefinitely but have no say on how the country is being run.

It's the same here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Monday, May 11, 2015, 10:24:41
I assume you have permanent residency status? Is that not enough to vote in the French system then? Seems strange that you would be allowed to stay indefinitely but have no say on how the country is being run.

Yes, all EU nationals have permanent residency, but the vote is restricted to French nationals. Think that's the same in the UK. It seems like a discrepancy that you can end up without a vote anywhere in Europe, but it's an area that the EU hasn't aligned, despite challenges.

To be fair, I suppose it's up to me to take nationality if I'm sufficiently committed to being involved in the politics of where I live.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 11, 2015, 10:24:57
 This is a good one......obviously Gove has been brought into the Justice Dept, to bin the UK's signature to European Human Rights.  

 Thoughts?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Monday, May 11, 2015, 10:26:38
This is a good one......obviously Gove has been brought into the Justice Dept, to bin the UK's signature to European Human Rights.  

 Thougts?

Bye bye, Daily Mail nation, drifting disunited off into the north Atlantic.  :bye:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 11, 2015, 10:47:35
Bye bye, Dail Mail disunited nation, drifting off into the north Atlantic.  :bye:

I'm particularly interested to hear from our nascent Lib Dem members on this, as it's just the sort of thing which would have been blocked in Coalition...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Monday, May 11, 2015, 10:54:57
I don't see what we can possibly gain from scrapping this bill.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 11, 2015, 11:29:29
I don't see what we can possibly gain from scrapping this bill.

It's really to do with being able to deport the likes of Abu Qatada....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Monday, May 11, 2015, 11:33:24
I can't see a vote for leaving the EU.  I think most will vote reluctantly to stay in.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, May 11, 2015, 11:45:27
This is a good one......obviously Gove has been brought into the Justice Dept, to bin the UK's signature to European Human Rights. 

 Thoughts?
All work on this is irrelevant while we're in the EU. They will not let us scrap it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 11, 2015, 11:48:57
All work on this is irrelevant while we're in the EU. They will not let us scrap it.

ECHR, is nothing to do with the EU....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: @mwooly63 on Monday, May 11, 2015, 12:21:48
ECHR, is nothing to do with the EU....

Iirc Holland pulled out of that when they went thru their immigration issues


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: JanTheMan on Monday, May 11, 2015, 14:09:14
I voted yellow, as I did last time. Unfortunately my mp was turned over by the Tory (as per 80pc of LD seats!). That said I was happy with the last coalition set up.

It would take a lot for me to vote labour since I spent 18months working for a local authority. In 10 years since I have never met a bigger bunch of umbitious mediocre work shy slackers. All just waiting for their undeserved pensions whilst complaining about working conditions etc etc etc. To a man and women they were labour.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 11, 2015, 14:17:15
I voted yellow, as I did last time. Unfortunately my mp was turned over by the Tory (as per 80pc of LD seats!). That said I was happy with the last coalition set up.

It would take a lot for me to vote labour since I spent 18months working for a local authority. In 10 years since I have never met a bigger bunch of umbitious mediocre work shy slackers. All just waiting for their undeserved pensions whilst complaining about working conditions etc etc etc. To a man and women they were labour.

Ah Local Government.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 11, 2015, 15:17:26
Iirc Holland pulled out of that when they went thru their immigration issues

Very much doubt it....there are 47 countries signed up....including Russia.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Monday, May 11, 2015, 16:04:55
interesting issues

1         non Brits resident here may vote in local government elections but not national elections - seems logical enough
2         Reg (as he knows!) is quite right about the European Court of Human Rights being unconnected with EU - it was incorporated into British Law in the House of Commons and we are entirely free to repeal this as with any British laws anytime.

I'm afraid this barely seems to register with the mob wing of the Eurosceptics where the word "Europe" brings down the sort of red mist that led the neanderthals of Portsmouth to kick in the windows of a local Paediatrician


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arnold Corns on Monday, May 11, 2015, 16:51:20
Take away press and tv bias and concentrate on policies and you get this:
https://data.voteforpolicies.org.uk/countries/results#countries/england


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Monday, May 11, 2015, 17:12:14
This is a good one......obviously Gove has been brought into the Justice Dept, to bin the UK's signature to European Human Rights.  

 Thoughts?

The Uk can repeal the Human Rights Act but it would change nothing and would simply put us back in the situation we were in before the UK Act was enacted (ie appeal a UK decision to the ECHR).

My understanding is that all EU states are members of the Council of Europe and signatories to the European Convention on European Rights.  Would it need the UK to leave the EU to remove itself from this control?

Not sure if I've got all that correct.  But I have more legal qualifications than Michael Gove (as he has none).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 11, 2015, 17:20:46
The Uk can repeal the Human Rights Act but it would change nothing and would simply put us back in the situation we were in before the UK Act was enacted (ie appeal a UK decision to the ECHR).

My understanding is that all EU states are members of the Council of Europe and signatories to the European Convention on European Rights.  Would it need the UK to leave the EU to remove itself from this control?

Not sure if I've got all that correct.  But I have more legal qualifications than Michael Gove (as he has none).

The Convention was signed as part of the post war settlement, to try and ensure it would be more difficult for fascism to raise its ugly head.

I don't think even the Tories, are proposing leaving the Convention....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Monday, May 11, 2015, 17:22:05
It would take a lot for me to vote labour since I spent 18months working for a local authority. In 10 years since I have never met a bigger bunch of umbitious mediocre work shy slackers. All just waiting for their undeserved pensions whilst complaining about working conditions etc etc etc. To a man and women they were labour.

Whereas my experience is totally different.  I worked in a Local Authority for several years and can honestly say I worked my bollocks off, regularly working late into the evening and weekends for no extra pay.  And just to compound the stereotype, vast majority were not members of a Union, most were not interested in politics and, of those that were, there were as many Tories and Lib Dems as Labour voters. 

I left 3 years ago to join the private sector doing the same type of work.  I've more than doubled my take home pay.  I work much less hours and am under much less pressure.  Those I left behind have had 5 years of pay freezes and cuts to staffing - everyone now working more for less.  There's probably more Labour voters amongst them now...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 14:14:25
Whereas my experience is totally different.  I worked in a Local Authority for several years and can honestly say I worked my bollocks off, regularly working late into the evening and weekends for no extra pay.  And just to compound the stereotype, vast majority were not members of a Union, most were not interested in politics and, of those that were, there were as many Tories and Lib Dems as Labour voters. 

I left 3 years ago to join the private sector doing the same type of work.  I've more than doubled my take home pay.  I work much less hours and am under much less pressure.  Those I left behind have had 5 years of pay freezes and cuts to staffing - everyone now working more for less.  There's probably more Labour voters amongst them now...


Just out of interest what department of a Local Authority did you work in? I have worked in two different Authorities over the years and my experiences were pretty similar to JanTheMan - but then again I a pretty sure he like I is a Planner - yes we worked into the evenings sometimes but never at weekends and there we a lot of staff as young as their early 40's who were aiming for retirement and could tell you almost exactly what that pension would be in c.20 years time.

I get the point about Unions, however I would also say from personal experience (I was a Union rep for a couple of years) if you are a professional working in an LPA Unison have no interest in you - we got zero support when in dispute with the Council. My entire Council career was under Labour and we seemed to be in dispute with them all the time (I had at least 3 days out on strike) - I never did understand why we as a Union paid Labour, who then tried to screw us over when led to us going out on strike buggering up services for the public - but what did I know.

Now in the private sector the work is more interesting and better paid to a degree, however I work much harder and longer hours and the pressure if considerably greater - swings and roundabouts I suppose.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 14:55:00
swings and roundabouts I suppose.
Presumably mainly roundabouts though, if you're a planner? :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 11:43:53
 Erstwhile Trust chairman hopeful Justin Tomlinson has got a new gig working for IDS, as Minister for Disabled People  even the Tory supporting Independent,is presumably wondering, whether, given his support for cutting the benefits of peoiple with cancer, and those to disabled children, this is a good thing.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-camerons-new-disabilities-minister-voted-against-protecting-disabled-childrens-benefits-10246049.html?origin=internalSearch


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 11:54:42
Erstwhile Trust chairman hopeful Justin Tomlinson has got a new gig working for IDS, as Minister for Disabled People  even the Tory supporting Independent, has questioned whether given his support for cutting the benefits of peoiple with cancer, and those to disabled children, this is a good thing.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-camerons-new-disabilities-minister-voted-against-protecting-disabled-childrens-benefits-10246049.html?origin=internalSearch
What a fucking wanker. Now chief arse licker of the abhorrent IDS.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 11:59:34
What a fucking wanker. Now chief arse licker of the abhorrent IDS.

At least he failed in his campaign to become Trust chair.....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 15:47:49
This obviously needs taking in context when one considers the outlet within which it was published, but quite a thought provoking piece.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...hinging-why-the-Left-are-such-bad-losers.html

I have genuinely been a little shocked by the backlash from the left both prior to and after the election, the right are always branded the nasty parties but it does appear that this is not reflected by the supporters of either side on social media as the patronising abuse heaped on anyone thinking of (or actually voting) has been incredible?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 16:01:37
hur hur - I gave him his leaflet back when he posted it through my door the other week
"the Duke of Devonshire noted "No one who hasn't been a Parliamentary Under Secretary of State has any conception of how unimportant a Parliamentary Under Secretary of State is""
fucking hell that's an extra 31k a year on top of his 65K - plus expenses


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 16:08:36
hur hur - I gave him his leaflet back when he posted it through my door the other week
"the Duke of Devonshire noted "No one who hasn't been a Parliamentary Under Secretary of State has any conception of how unimportant a Parliamentary Under Secretary of State is""


The Duke of Cornwall, has been sending notes to Government officials over the last 5 years....he may have had an opinion, on the importance or otherwise of Mr Tomlinson's sinecure, but will we ever know, Cameron is trying to suppress publication of the letters, even though the highest judges say there's no reason in law not to publish.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ron dodgers on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 16:13:55
publish, or be damned sirrah!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 16:21:18
publish, or be damned sirrah!

Apparently they are being published....but the Government changed the law in 2011, to prevent publication thereafter.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 16:26:14
This obviously needs taking in context when one considers the outlet within which it was published, but quite a thought provoking piece.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...hinging-why-the-Left-are-such-bad-losers.html

I have genuinely been a little shocked by the backlash from the left both prior to and after the election, the right are always branded the nasty parties but it does appear that this is not reflected by the supporters of either side on social media as the patronising abuse heaped on anyone thinking of (or actually voting) has been incredible?
Counter that by reading some of the bile in the online comments section of the Daily Mail, or some of the shit posted by people reposting Britain First memes (and their like), and it's not a left-right thing. It's a "people think it's OK to be really unpleasant online in a way they wouldn't in person" thing.

However, that doesn't absolve the tantrums of the losers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 16:35:26
Counter that by reading some of the bile in the online comments section of the Daily Mail, or some of the shit posted by people reposting Britain First memes (and their like), and it's not a left-right thing. It's a "people think it's OK to be really unpleasant online in a way they wouldn't in person" thing.

However, that doesn't absolve the tantrums of the losers.

I do agree that many seem to have disengaged the part of your brain that suggests 'would I say this to someones face' during this campaign. To be honest I would expect such crap on the Mail comments section, its been more some of the general stuff posted on here, Faceache from people I know should know better and other forums I frequent - its always people saying what clueless arseholes people are for voting tory?

Perhaps my views have been blurred by reading too much George Orwell in the past....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 16:39:28
The Duke of Cornwall, has been sending notes to Government officials over the last 5 years....he may have had an opinion, on the importance or otherwise of Mr Tomlinson's sinecure, but will we ever know, Cameron is trying to suppress publication of the letters, even though the highest judges say there's no reason in law not to publish.

And Mr Brown before him and Mr Blair before him... this has been going on for 10 years now (and thus the first 5 under Labour).

On first glance he doesn't have much of interest to say...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 16:42:20
I do agree that many seem to have disengaged the part of your brain that suggests 'would I say this to someones face' during this campaign. To be honest I would expect such crap on the Mail comments section, its been more some of the general stuff posted on here, Faceache from people I know should know better and other forums I frequent - its always people saying what clueless arseholes people are for voting tory?
Well if you're looking on fb, there's plenty of right-wing vitriol/bigotry from the Britain First re-posters (many of whom are normally quite sane, but seem to go  beserk at the sight of a meme with a poppy in it) and on here, look no further than the (in the circumstances) ironically named Red and Proud's outpourings or even our very own tame Nazi, Ironside, for the "everything bad in my life is Labour's fault and all their supporters are cretins" counterbalance.

I do agree though that some of the post-election outbursts from Labour supporters have been embarrassing, just don't think it's a uniquely "left" thing as the Telegraph piece suggested. We'd have seen the same if Labour had won


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 16:56:16
Well if you're looking on fb, there's plenty of right-wing vitriol/bigotry from the Britain First re-posters (many of whom are normally quite sane, but seem to go  beserk at the sight of a meme with a poppy in it) and on here, look no further than the (in the circumstances) ironically named Red and Proud's outpourings or even our very own tame Nazi, Ironside, for the "everything bad in my life is Labour's fault and all their supporters are cretins" counterbalance.

I do agree though that some of the post-election outbursts from Labour supporters have been embarrassing, just don't think it's a uniquely "left" thing as the Telegraph piece suggested. We'd have seen the same if Labour had won

The irony in this, is that in no sense can Labour be seen as a party of the Left, whereas the party which had a manifesto resembling Labour's 82 "longest suicide note in history" was rather successful


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 16:59:07
The irony in this, is that in no sense can Labour be seen as a party of the Left, whereas the party which had a manifesto resembling Labour's 82 "longest suicide note in history" was rather successful
Yes, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that most of those throwing their toys out of the pram on social media are broadly of the left (or would certainly look that way to the Telegraph). Even if they have voted for a wolf in sheep's clothing (or sheep in wolf's clothing, depending on your point of view)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 17:06:52
Yes, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that most of those throwing their toys out of the pram on social media are broadly of the left (or would certainly look that way to the Telegraph). Even if they have voted for a wolf in sheep's clothing (or sheep in wolf's clothing, depending on your point of view)

As Margaret Thatcher foiund out, being savaged by a dead sheep, can be very nasty. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mystical_goat on Friday, May 15, 2015, 21:16:33
It's not hard to see that the people working and representing us in Westminster are self-serving wankers with many vested personal, family and social interests. They have little genuine desire to do serve the public or cause beneficial change for anyone but their narrow circle of interests.

I am pleased to see the election results have caused a minor spike in activist groups but really only something radical and en-masse will cause the change that is necessary. The grip that the ruling demogrpahic hold is strong.

I work in education and have met a small handful of people who are just fucking amazing at their jobs and everyone agrees they are amazing. They have great ideas and capture everyone's attention immediately. Those are the people who should be in charge; experts in their field. Our new Minister for Justice is trained with a 2:1 in English and a career in journalism. And is a complete cunt.

I have little interest in our politics/media apart from tactical voting at election time. It's futile; whoever wins there is a majority of cunts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: OOH! SHAUN TAYLOR on Friday, May 15, 2015, 21:19:13
The Oxford fan talks sense  :nod:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Saturday, May 16, 2015, 15:17:51
Anyone else see the irony in the governments suggested new rules around strike ballots.
The unions now need 40% of those eligible to vote in favour.
Funny then that a majority government only got 36% of those that voted, let alone those that were eligible to vote


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, May 16, 2015, 15:21:11
meh, unions have held to much power when it comes to striking, good on the government.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Saturday, May 16, 2015, 16:05:17
meh, unions have held to much power when it comes to striking, good on the government.

Yes, the only employer in the country that can change the rules on the fly to fuck it's employees. Good on them!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, May 16, 2015, 17:00:11
 See Osborne is going to get cutting sharpish, with an emergency budget in July, to take 12 bn out of the welfare budget, would seem like a good time to do it as there's effectively no opposition, which will probably mean people resorting to direct action.  Boris's water cannon will no doubt see some service.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, May 16, 2015, 17:33:25
Good


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Saturday, May 16, 2015, 18:39:55
Anyone else see the irony in the governments suggested new rules around strike ballots.
The unions now need 40% of those eligible to vote in favour.
Funny then that a majority government only got 36% of those that voted, let alone those that were eligible to vote

The difference is everyone has a chance to vote for a government but not everyone has a chance to vote in a union ballot of which a strike causes significant disruption to those with no say.

For example there are only about 22,000 members of firefighters' union but there are circa 45 million voters. Thus that example is not comparing like for like.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, May 16, 2015, 20:56:23
meh, unions have held to much power when it comes to striking, good on the government.
:nod:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Posh Red on Saturday, May 16, 2015, 21:31:58
The difference is everyone has a chance to vote for a government but not everyone has a chance to vote in a union ballot of which a strike causes significant disruption to those with no say.

For example there are only about 22,000 members of firefighters' union but there are circa 45 million voters. Thus that example is not comparing like for like.

But only those people that have a vote will go on strike, not the entire population.

And if you are talking about impact, I think it's fair to say that a decision made by the government will impact more people.

Anyway it's more about the fact that the percentage is if total voters eligible. The assumption being that if you can't or won't choose one way or another you must be a no.
Presumably that means that 34% of the population didn't vote in the general election they must have voted against the government (whoever it was going to be)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, May 17, 2015, 20:15:41
meh, unions have held to much power when it comes to striking, good on the government.
totally disagree. Unions are a good thing and I encourage everyone to join one


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, May 17, 2015, 20:21:33
Unions do good work, no denying it, works rights and conditions, legal representation when companies try to screw you over, etc. But they also need to live in the real world when it comes to pay, though their job is to get the best deal for their members.

But its specifically the ease at which strikes can be called that pisses me off about them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, May 17, 2015, 20:24:09
Unions do good work, no denying it, works rights and conditions, legal representation when companies try to screw you over, etc. But they also need to live in the real world when it comes to pay, though their job is to get the best deal for their members.

But its specifically the ease at which strikes can be called that pisses me off about them.
nobody wants to go on strike. Sometimes it just has to happen though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Sunday, May 17, 2015, 20:26:19
nobody wants to go on strike. Sometimes it just has to happen though.

I'll leave it there, because sooner or later I'll piss off Tans!

I don't think striking ultimately works (FBU, Miners, etc).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Sunday, May 17, 2015, 20:42:00
With respect to the miners history has proven Scargill correct and thatcher a liar


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, May 17, 2015, 20:43:37
With respect to the miners history has proven Scargill correct and thatcher a liar

Didn't help the miners much though did it?

Generally in favour of unions as a concept, but Len McCluskey comes across as a power mad lunatic.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: tans on Sunday, May 17, 2015, 21:13:27
I'll leave it there, because sooner or later I'll piss off Tans!

I don't think striking ultimately works (FBU, Miners, etc).

:D

Meh


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 10:57:43
totally disagree. Unions are a good thing and I encourage everyone to join one

I would add a word of caution to this, if you are inclined to join a union in your workplace, do some research regarding what their objectives are... from personal experience if you are in the 'professional' grades within a Local Authority they are happy to take your subs but not inclined to help if you are in dispute as you are not part of their key objectives.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: skiptotheLouMacari on Monday, May 18, 2015, 11:23:46
With respect to the miners history has proven Scargill correct and thatcher a liar

Yeah but surely we couldn't just keep on diging beneath the surface for coal otherwise what will stop the country collapsing on itself?  Unions do some good but also holds the rest of the country to ransome with its demands, and why if you're in a union and disagree with a walkout are you labelled a scab?  That is pure bullying tactics used to intimidate people, and remember union reps still get paid when striking the work force doesn't you have a choice.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DarloSTFC84 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 11:31:42
I would add a word of caution to this, if you are inclined to join a union in your workplace, do some research regarding what their objectives are... from personal experience if you are in the 'professional' grades within a Local Authority they are happy to take your subs but not inclined to help if you are in dispute as you are not part of their key objectives.

I'm with Unison, I had a recent dispute, they were superb. I'd have been totally lost without them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 11:33:49
With respect to the miners history has proven Scargill correct and thatcher a liar

In what way? Not being argumentative, just interested?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 11:39:05
I'm with Unison, I had a recent dispute, they were superb. I'd have been totally lost without them.

They may have changed (out of interested what do you do) - I ask as when we had a dispute which only affected professional grades (it was to do with the Council, overnight and without any consultation, abolishing the essential car user allowance  - so we continued to have to provide a car for work but they wouldn't pay anymore).

We entered a dispute and asked for support from Unison regional office, heard nothing, asked again, got nothing, finally got to speak to a regional officer (who wouldn't come out to meet us) and he confirmed that they didn't have the resources to help us, and as we were professional grades we were outside their area of concentration at that stage which was equal wages for female workers and minimum wage matters as that gets headlines!

In the end we sorted it ourselves without any union assistance and I rapidly resigned as a Union Rep and left the Union.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DarloSTFC84 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 11:45:01
They may have changed (out of interested what do you do)

I work for South Central Ambulance Service, my dispute was a personal one only affecting myself (which shouldn't have been the case). Granted, I've been with Unison for 12 years and paid my subs every month without using them, up until March. But I was grateful that they were there.. On that basis I will continue to pay my subs, for the 'just in case' scenario. Oh, it's nice to get a discount card come through annually for companies I'll never use too!  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, May 18, 2015, 12:21:05
Yeah but surely we couldn't just keep on diging beneath the surface for coal otherwise what will stop the country collapsing on itself?  Unions do some good but also holds the rest of the country to ransome with its demands, and why if you're in a union and disagree with a walkout are you labelled a scab?  That is pure bullying tactics used to intimidate people, and remember union reps still get paid when striking the work force doesn't you have a choice.
in my experience reps do not get paid when striking at all. Which reps are you referring to?
Bullying tactics? What about the bullying tactics from employers? The issues that drive union members to striking.

There are numerous benefits from being a union member. I even had my will done for free through mine.

On another note I've joined the hunt saboteurs association today. This Tory administration and its leader enjoy the sick pastime of watching dogs rip wildlife to pieces and will repeal the law if they can. Ive got to try to do my bit to stop it. I've also written to Buckland and Tomlinson. I'm sure they'll tow the party line as their noses are firmly up senior Tories anuses.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: skiptotheLouMacari on Monday, May 18, 2015, 12:40:59
in my experience reps do not get paid when striking at all. Which reps are you referring to?
Bullying tactics? What about the bullying tactics from employers? The issues that drive union members to striking.

There are numerous benefits from being a union member. I even had my will done for free through mine.

I stand corrected it is not the rep but the union chiefs who encourage striking that still get paid.  But what i dont get is the firemans strike when they do 3 or 4 on 3 or 4 off i know plenty who moonlight during their time off but can't afford Christmas this year but can still afford to strike. i am all for the rights of people and working conditions and yet certain union fat cats think it's morally correct to hold the country to ransome with strikes over busy /festive periods. Can you also confirm why if i dont agree with strike action and go into work because i cant afford not to be in work i am a scab? It's insulting intimidating and stinks.
As for the government how is it the tories fault!  Aren't all politicians and parties liars they promise this and that and deliver the other. They won the majority of votes, we live in a democracy, that's the price of freedom.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Monday, May 18, 2015, 12:45:06
In what way? Not being argumentative, just interested?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25549596
I think this article throws some light on it. You also have to look at the techniques Thatcher applied to win the Miners strike.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, May 18, 2015, 13:03:15
in my experience reps do not get paid when striking at all. Which reps are you referring to?
Bullying tactics? What about the bullying tactics from employers? The issues that drive union members to striking.

There are numerous benefits from being a union member. I even had my will done for free through mine.

I stand corrected it is not the rep but the union chiefs who encourage striking that still get paid.  But what i dont get is the firemans strike when they do 3 or 4 on 3 or 4 off i know plenty who moonlight during their time off but can't afford Christmas this year but can still afford to strike. i am all for the rights of people and working conditions and yet certain union fat cats think it's morally correct to hold the country to ransome with strikes over busy /festive periods. Can you also confirm why if i dont agree with strike action and go into work because i cant afford not to be in work i am a scab? It's insulting intimidating and stinks.
As for the government how is it the tories fault!  Aren't all politicians and parties liars they promise this and that and deliver the other. They won the majority of votes, we live in a democracy, that's the price of freedom.

Union chiefs are elected by their membership. They can be removed if desired.

There is plenty of information about the fire fighters dispute available to read. Unsurprisingly I am fully in support of them.

If you are a union member and go to work whilst your colleagues are out losing pay then it would be you out of order. You would see any benefits that the dispute being resolved could bring yet would still be getting paid whilst those who fight for their futures do not. Very selfish and they are rightly called scabs. If you are not a union member then fair enough but you should not see any of the benefits of any resolved dispute as you are happy to work under the conditions your fellow workers are not.

It's the Tories fault as they are trying to take away union rights.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DarloSTFC84 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 13:13:10
This is getting fiesty.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 14:15:17
I don't get unions and I don't get striking. If you don't like where you work, for whatever reason, you should try to resolve the issues with management and if that fails you have two choices - put up with it, or get a new job.

I did the new job route a year ago, I'm now getting more money, working closer to home and love the new job and company.

Don't know why anyone would want to continue working somewhere they hate so much they have to go on strike. You might win one battle but there will be another and you're back to square one. A lifetime of being pissed off all the time.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Monday, May 18, 2015, 14:20:48
The fire fighters dispute isn't about pay.  They also leave picket lines to go on shouts.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: DarloSTFC84 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 14:25:13
I don't get unions and I don't get striking. If you don't like where you work, for whatever reason, you should try to resolve the issues with management and if that fails you have two choices - put up with it, or get a new job.

I did the new job route a year ago, I'm now getting more money, working closer to home and love the new job and company.

Don't know why anyone would want to continue working somewhere they hate so much they have to go on strike. You might win one battle but there will be another and you're back to square one. A lifetime of being pissed off all the time.



It's not as simple as that though, is it? - Unions aren't just about striking. Ours are there for a great deal of reasons. Staff welfare and support being the main one. Personally, I love my job, but if I'm ever being treated unfairly then I have somewhere to go to fight that. More likely to win with the union on your side, speaking from very recent experience. I love my job and what I do and wont be forced out of it due to being victimised.

Sometimes it's not as easy as 'just tell a manager'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 18, 2015, 15:55:38
I don't get unions and I don't get striking.

You could do with reading something like EP Thompson's.....The Making of the English Working Class.

We're where we are today,  a consequence of generations of workers, and their struggle for improved conditions from often uncaring owners and management.

Occasionally, you'd get enlightened owners/management, thus making it easier for improvements to be achieved, but not always.

A classic Tory attack on Trade Unionism, was when Thatcher banned workers at GCHQ from association in a union, just as had happened to the Tolpuddle Martyrs.

She described Trade Unionists as the "Enemy Within"   Fair play to the old bat, at least she had the balls to make it plain whose side she was on, unlike David Cameron.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Monday, May 18, 2015, 16:30:15
We're where we are today,  a consequence of generations of workers, and their struggle for improved conditions from often uncaring owners and management.

I don't dispute that but unions had a time and place and haven't evolved enough.

There is plenty of legislation and plenty of companies that go above and beyond that. More could be done, I'd like to see the role the unions play move to internal representation within individual companies via legislation. Taking the good bits and leaving the bad behind.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, May 18, 2015, 19:31:04
I don't dispute that but unions had a time and place and haven't evolved enough.

There is plenty of legislation and plenty of companies that go above and beyond that. More could be done, I'd like to see the role the unions play move to internal representation within individual companies via legislation. Taking the good bits and leaving the bad behind.

Workers conditions should never be taken as a given....look at what is happening in Qatar, where it is estimated that 62 people will have died for each WC game that will be played....yet the multi nationals involved with FIFA are happy enough to go along with it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jonny72 on Saturday, June 27, 2015, 10:12:32
So has everyone forgotten about politics?

To those that joined a party after the election, have you got involved or is being a member and paying the fees enough?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Saturday, June 27, 2015, 11:03:21
So has everyone forgotten about politics?

To those that joined a party after the election, have you got involved or is being a member and paying the fees enough?

I went to a welcome event and decided that everyone was far more earnest than I. Got a leadership election vote though, not really sure which way I'd go: Norman Lamb comes across a really great human being and I really respect his work on mental health, but he will be tainted by the coalition and he's not the most charismatic. Farron is a bit more of a Charles Kennedy left-wing liberal and a very good public speaker, but I'm slightly worried by the amount of senior Lib Dems who actually know him who really don't seem to like the guy.

Ultimately I think I'm just a bit too cynical and balanced for party politics, everyone involved seems to think that their party is great in all areas and that all the others are full on evil.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Saturday, June 27, 2015, 11:04:33
Some Labour canvassers came and knocked my door yesterday. As I posted before in this thread, there was no sign of them before the election, so to appear 8 weeks post-election was a little futile.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Saturday, June 27, 2015, 11:12:09
So has everyone forgotten about politics?

To those that joined a party after the election, have you got involved or is being a member and paying the fees enough?

I went to a meeting.  Had a discussion.  We mainly have to elect a new leader.  If I am available I will go to the conference at the end of September.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, July 8, 2015, 15:10:17
So then, first Tory budget since 1996. Some quite widespread fiscal changes which I can't believe none of you have commented on yet.

What say you lefties about the welfare cuts?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, July 8, 2015, 15:17:25
No real surprises, poor get poorer while the asset rich and corporations get breaks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, July 8, 2015, 16:00:11
To be honest Ive been driving up to London to work.  Im now here but it may take me time to have a look at the budget as I have to build up so I don't immediately make my way to parliment with a and start trying to abuse people.

Ill let you know tomorrow when I can provide a more coherent, considered response.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Wednesday, July 8, 2015, 16:01:57
No real surprises, poor get poorer while the asset rich and corporations get breaks.
Standard Tory policy.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Wednesday, July 8, 2015, 16:13:41
Lots of spin by Osborne but in effect this was a tax raising budget - although a lot of us will not notice it directly.  Somebody working with a wife and two kids will be up to £2000 a year worse off after losing their tax credits.  Young get no encouragement at all, basically it is work or learn up to 21 with nothing else.  Grants to poor families who want to send a child to uni have gone to be replaced by a "loan"!  £20,000 a year limit on welfare payments per family - do not disagree with that!!


Title: Re:
Post by: Honkytonk on Thursday, July 9, 2015, 23:41:11
Essentially the budget punishes poor young people whilst providing breaks for those with enough money that things like student loans and child tax credits are not important.

Living wage is fine. If it rises with the cost of living by 2020. Which it probably won't. So you'll essentially have a minimum wage that doesn't match reality or what people actually need. Possibly even worse off than now, especially in rural areas with petrol prices going nowhere but up and public transport about as common and convenient as hens teeth.

I do think people who have a lot of kids, in the nicest possible way, need to be pubushed a bit. But then I think punishing 3 child families is too much.

I'm struggling to see how my little sister is ever going to escape debt now she is off to uni. I struggle to see how the people who got us into this mess in the first place are still off scott free if not getting breaks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, July 10, 2015, 07:14:38
Living wage only applies to those 25 and up. So if you can't afford to go to uni any more, you won't be entitled to a decent wage in whatever shitty job you can find.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Friday, July 10, 2015, 08:04:59
Living wage only applies to those 25 and up. So if you can't afford to go to uni any more, you won't be entitled to a decent wage in whatever shitty job you can find.
I haven't had a chance to go through it yet. Did he focus on the tax avoidance loopholes utilised by his mates? I'm sure he must have done, as the revenue earned would be substantial and, as we're still in a period of austerity, the Chancellor has a responsibility to ensure that any monies he can save, or get, he is actively targeting.

Or is he just going after the most vulnerable and helpless in society?

(No need to answer, it's a rhetorical question).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Friday, July 10, 2015, 09:06:47
I haven't had a chance to go through it yet. Did he focus on the tax avoidance loopholes utilised by his mates? I'm sure he must have done, as the revenue earned would be substantial and, as we're still in a period of austerity, the Chancellor has a responsibility to ensure that any monies he can save, or get, he is actively targeting.

Or is he just going after the most vulnerable and helpless in society?

(No need to answer, it's a rhetorical question).
His family are reputed to have made £6 million from  recent offshore deal - will that get taxed?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: LucienSanchez on Friday, July 10, 2015, 09:09:37
He's stolent he phrase 'living wage' and applied it to something that doesn't actually amount to the actual agreed living wage. It's a con.

Much like ceasing child poverty by just redefining it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, July 10, 2015, 09:22:48
I have zero issue with abolishing the tex credits completely - saves not only that money but also the millions spent administering it.  However, it needs immediate rebalancing by having a minimum wage that equals the loss for individuals - the real Living Wage.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, July 10, 2015, 09:46:25
It's 2015. we need to free people from the tyranny of enforced labour. Don't poo poo this idea until you've done your research.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

http://basicincome.org.uk/reasons-support-basic-income/

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/01/paying-everyone-a-basic-income-would-kill-off-low-paid-menial-jobs

PS, yes I realise my left-wing views don't match my forum hitler reputation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, July 10, 2015, 09:49:26
Pros:

No need for an arbitrary minimum wage
No need for an army of civil servants to administer means tested benefits
No benefits fraud
Increase in small business start-ups
No shitty jobs
No need for trade unions

Cons:

What do you do about immigrants/asylum seekers?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Friday, July 10, 2015, 09:52:46
Quote from: jayohaitchenn link=topic=55431.msg1338092#msg1338092 date=1436518166

Cons:

What do you do about immigrants/asylum seekers?

[/quote
Don't pay them a penny until they are contributing to OUR systems and deny them access to NHS services until they have paid NI fro at least six months.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, July 10, 2015, 10:05:49
Are foreign lives worth less then British ones then?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, July 10, 2015, 10:09:08
PS, yes I realise my left-wing views don't match my forum hitler reputation.

Even Hitler called his party socialist.  ;)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Friday, July 10, 2015, 10:29:20
He's stolent he phrase 'living wage' and applied it to something that doesn't actually amount to the actual agreed living wage. It's a con.

Much like ceasing child poverty by just redefining it.

Unfortunately if you get to parrot something in a compliant right wing media enough it becomes the truth to the simple minded.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Friday, July 10, 2015, 12:03:12
So how will under 21s who are genuinely homeless survive with housing benefits for them potentially being stopped. All hostels rely on this to accommodate them.

Also how will this work.

18 Year old gets a Apprenticeship on £120 a week. Doesn't live with parents so has to private rent. Not entitled to housing benefit anymore. What the fuck does he do?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, July 10, 2015, 12:12:25
A wage of £120/week implies pay of just over £3/hour.  No one could be expected to support themselves on that.  I was earning more than that as a teenager doing holiday temp work in Swindon factories 25 years ago.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 10, 2015, 12:44:34
So how will under 21s who are genuinely homeless survive with housing benefits for them potentially being stopped. All hostels rely on this to accommodate them.

The traditional method is to turn to petty crime...usually drug dealing, whilst sofa surfing.

Back when I was that age, there was no such thing as housing benefit...admittedly the job market was better. 

Though a socialist by instinct, I've always believed in people being responsible for their own lives, as far as is possible.  By having this responsibility, then you are doing your bit for the wider collective society.

The collective should then look after those who are incapable of looking after themselves....your example is the sort of interface, which causes differences between Tories, Liberals and some socialists.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Friday, July 10, 2015, 12:51:32
A wage of £120/week implies pay of just over £3/hour.  No one could be expected to support themselves on that.  I was earning more than that as a teenager doing holiday temp work in Swindon factories 25 years ago.
Thats correct but YTS ,Apprentiships rtc do not have to adhere to national min wage. Reg is spot on really


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, July 10, 2015, 13:09:26
So how will under 21s who are genuinely homeless survive with housing benefits for them potentially being stopped. All hostels rely on this to accommodate them.

Quote
To prevent young people slipping straight into a life on benefits, from April 2017
the Budget will also remove the automatic entitlement to housing support for new
claims in Universal Credit from 18-21 year olds who are out of work. This will ensure
young people in the benefits system face the same choices as young people who work and who
may not be able to afford to leave home. There will be exemptions, including for vulnerable
young people, those who may not be able to return home to live with their parents,
and those
who have been in work for 6 months prior to making a claim, who will continue to be able to
receive housing support for up to 6 months while they look for work.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Friday, July 10, 2015, 13:12:18

Cheers Sam i am glad that's the case. Just be interesting to see what they deem as vulnerable now wont it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Friday, July 10, 2015, 13:15:39
As I understand it (and I could be wrong) the removal of housing benefit is only for those out of work and claiming universal credit. If you're in work or training, you'll still be entitled.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: donkey on Friday, July 10, 2015, 15:14:19
Living wage only applies to those 25 and up. So if you can't afford to go to uni any more, you won't be entitled to a decent wage in whatever shitty job you can find.

And does anyone really think this would happen if the young voted in the same numbers as pensioners? There are no surprises here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Friday, July 10, 2015, 15:34:48
And does anyone really think this would happen if the young voted in the same numbers as pensioners? There are no surprises here.

I always thought if everyone voted we'd have a much different political landscape, and it frustrated me greatly when friends who had really strong opinions on things didn't vote.

Then I was talking to some Australian friends recently, and they told me it's obligatory to vote there, yet their political parties behave in a very similar way to ours. That said, the majority of Australians are cunts of gargantuan proportions, so maybe there it does reflect the will of all the people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 13, 2015, 15:42:34
 I'm impressed by the Tories latest wheeze....floating the idea of compulsory privatised health care and sickness benefit etc.

 You'll pay into a fund let's say n pound, so will be entitled to take out n pound....but not n+1, if you need it.

 Of course not something in the manifesto back in May.....don't suppose they'll be shareholders in the insurance companies either.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Monday, July 13, 2015, 15:47:58
To be honest Reg with the introduction of auto enrolment on the pensions side, which is a huge shift from public to private later life provisions, it was only a matter of time before the government (of which ever colour) would follow suit on the risk side of things.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, July 13, 2015, 15:54:17
To be honest Reg with the introduction of auto enrolment on the pensions side, which is a huge shift from public to private later life provisions, it was only a matter of time before the government (of which ever colour) would follow suit on the risk side of things.

Honesty and politicians, are a bit like honesty and journos.  If it's such a good idea, why wasn't it flagged up in May? 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, July 13, 2015, 21:51:29
Politics normally bores me to shite, you won't normally find me in threads such as this. It's clear that Cameron is a cock-womble, but asides from agreeing on that basic axiom I can't find myself to be bothered enough to even comment.....

But fox-hunting. Fuck you, you fucking cretin. Fuck you. Eugh. What an utterly, utterly vile thing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 14:21:31
The basic premise of population control is sensible. The way the hooting toffs go about it is not. I just think they should move fox hunts to inner cities at 4am. There. Problem solved.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 14:22:46
The basic premise of population control is sensible. The way the hooting toffs go about it is not. I just think they should move fox hunts to inner cities at 4am. There. Problem solved.

I think the horns might go down badly.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 14:37:37
The basic premise of population control is sensible. The way the hooting toffs go about it is not. I just think they should move fox hunts to inner cities at 4am. There. Problem solved.
They could combine it with the benefits cuts and start hunting the urban poor. It's what they really want to do.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Honkytonk on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 14:39:50
I think the horns might go down badly.

No worse than a siren going past. With a pack of hounds. And huge number of horses clattering on tarmac. And the general ohfwlohfwlohfwl sound of a pack of toffs.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 14:42:55
the general ohfwlohfwlohfwl sound of a pack of toffs.
It's more of a chewing sound really
(http://www.companionconsultancy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/toffo1.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 14:46:41
The basic premise of population control is sensible. The way the hooting toffs go about it is not. I just think they should move fox hunts to inner cities at 4am. There. Problem solved.

http://www.ifaw.org/united-kingdom/our-work/banning-hunting-dogs/myths-realities#a4

Quote
I thought fox hunting was necessary to keep down the fox population. WOn't a ban cause a population explosion of foxes?

According to the UK Government Burns Commission, “the overall contribution of traditional fox hunting, within the overall total of control techniques involving dogs, is almost certainly insignificant in terms of the management of the fox population as a whole.” The fox population has not changed either since the Hunting Act as hunting with dogs never had a real effect on populations due to the fact that foxes are territorial predators whose population self-regulate. If you kill some in an area you are going to have foxes from other areas coming in to replace the population you eliminated. The proof of this is that when hunting with dogs stopped during the foot-and-mouth crisis, research from Bristol University (Harris, 2002) showed that the fox population did not increase. On the other side, if you try to kill many foxes in an area using all possible means, research (Baker & Harris, 2006) has shown that the likely effect is an increase in fox numbers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 14:52:02
Things have come to a pretty pass in this country when the chinless wonders are deprived of their inalienable right to send a pack of hounds out to rip a fox to bits.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 15:03:36
Isn't it a bit sad that there are more people up in arms about the proposed reintroduction of fox hunting than there are about everything else this greedy, grasping, self serving bunch of cunts are doing to fuck us up the arse?

Not saying that fox hunting should in any way be legitimised, just that there are much bigger issues most seem totally apathetic towards.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 15:48:54
Isn't it a bit sad that there are more people up in arms about the proposed reintroduction of fox hunting than there are about everything else this greedy, grasping, self serving bunch of cunts are doing to fuck us up the arse?

Not saying that fox hunting should in any way be legitimised, just that there are much bigger issues most seem totally apathetic towards.
I agree, we care more about the fucking foxes than we do about the poor, disabled and old in our society.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 17:48:01
Couldn't agree more.

There must be about 20-30 issues that are actually important compared to bloody fox welfare. This country never ceases to amaze me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: michael on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 18:52:08
The irony of it being the SNP making Dave's government back down on fox hunting will, no doubt, be largely ignored by our right wing press.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 21:03:08
I think Sturgeon could lose some support over this.  Whether you agree with fox-hunting or not, all the bill would have done would have been to bring the law in England & Wales in line with what it is in Scotland.  The SNP can't be that bothered by the content of the bill, or they would have done something about the law as it stands in Scotland.  There's no substance to this stance.  It's not done on principle...which would be easier to respect and understand.  Just seems to be an exercise in getting up the noses of the Tories and their supporters.  Doing the right thing, maybe, but for all the wrong reasons.

Agitate, annoy, irritate, piss people off.  Is that the new strategy for Scottish independence?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 21:04:52
Couldn't agree more.

There must be about 20-30 issues that are actually important compared to bloody fox welfare. This country never ceases to amaze me.
That's not the fault of those objecting to the relaxation of the ban though. It was Cameron who chose to use what we keep being told is valuable parliamentary time to do favours for his mates


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 21:07:44
Just seems to be an exercise in getting up the noses of the Tories and their supporters.  Doing the right thing, maybe, but for all the wrong reasons.
tbf there's a bit more to it than that. English Tory MPs have continually blocked SNP amendments to the Scotland Act despite the promises made in the days running up to the referendum. So this is a bit of tit for tat - if English Tories are going to mess with exclusively Scottish legislation, and (apparently) break the "Pledge" made to the Scots in doing so, then the Scots are going to make life hard for them in return. Cuts both ways.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 21:22:09
I'm impressed by the Tories latest wheeze....floating the idea of compulsory privatised health care and sickness benefit etc.

Of course not something in the manifesto back in May.....don't suppose they'll be shareholders in the insurance companies either.
Great idea, Osborne

Oh wait a minute, the Liberals introduced it 100 years ago and called it National Insurance

So where's that money gone - the government, keen to reduce debt, has borrowed from the Fund for other purposes and there isn't much left.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 16, 2015, 17:07:51
So Tim Farron has got the Lib Dem gig, went to a meting with him once and must say I was very impressed with the guy and his ability to cut through bollocks to get things sorted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, July 16, 2015, 19:06:57
He's a good speaker, and very much out of the Charles Kennedy mould politically. If Kendall wins the Labour vote, Farron's Lib Dems will absolutely be to her left economically as well as socially (where I'd argue the Libs have been left of Labour for 20 years). Will face some tough questions about his faith (and more specifically, abstaining from one gay marriage vote - not against, and not all of them, as will probably be written- Theyworkforyou (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11923/tim_farron/westmorland_and_lonsdale/votes) rates him as strongly in favour ) but he could revive them, particularly if Labour implode.

For the record, I voted Lamb, who I agree with more politically, but think Farron might well connect with the public better.

Now, anyone for Jeremy Corbyn? Supposedly leading the polls for Labour leader. I can't see it happening.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: bamboonoshoe on Thursday, July 16, 2015, 19:07:24
So Tim Farron has got the Lib Dem gig, went to a meting with him once and must say I was very impressed with the guy and his ability to cut through bollocks to get things sorted.


Always nice when you meet a politician that doesn't specialise in faecal buffing.  This was very much the case when I met Charles Kennedy on several occasions (Rest his soul). Even though he was aware of his problems and aware that everyone knew about his problems, that never took away the genuine character of open, honest and approachable behaviour that he stood by.  A great man. An even better Lib Dem. Nice to know that Tim Farron holds similar values. I'll watch closely this.

Time for Lib Dem to rebuild again after (naively) being shafted by the Tories.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 16, 2015, 19:13:29
tbf there's a bit more to it than that. English Tory MPs have continually blocked SNP amendments to the Scotland Act despite the promises made in the days running up to the referendum. So this is a bit of tit for tat - if English Tories are going to mess with exclusively Scottish legislation, and (apparently) break the "Pledge" made to the Scots in doing so, then the Scots are going to make life hard for them in return. Cuts both ways.

Fair enough then.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, July 16, 2015, 19:15:35
I voted for Farron on the basis that it's all about a rebuilding job now, and he seemed best able to get on with that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Thursday, July 16, 2015, 20:55:27
He's a good speaker, and very much out of the Charles Kennedy mould politically. If Kendall wins the Labour vote, Farron's Lib Dems will absolutely be to her left economically as well as socially (where I'd argue the Libs have been left of Labour for 20 years). Will face some tough questions about his faith (and more specifically, abstaining from one gay marriage vote - not against, and not all of them, as will probably be written- Theyworkforyou (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11923/tim_farron/westmorland_and_lonsdale/votes) rates him as strongly in favour ) but he could revive them, particularly if Labour implode.

For the record, I voted Lamb, who I agree with more politically, but think Farron might well connect with the public better.

Now, anyone for Jeremy Corbyn? Supposedly leading the polls for Labour leader. I can't see it happening.

As a labour party member im still not sure who to vote for.  However I do tend to think that I'd like my party to lose because they have socialist ideals rather than win because they are tories.

Whichever way Id rather have an awful lot less of the PR men / women in politics.  Corbyn seems to be just an honest old lefty, not buffed up by the PR machine. 

Frankly someone has to oppose the current ghastly regime.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, July 16, 2015, 21:31:26
I voted for Farron on the basis that it's all about a rebuilding job now, and he seemed best able to get on with that.
I didn't get a vote as uselessly it took me so long to get round to joining it was too late.

But I think I would have voted Farron as he impresses me... plus whoever was running Lamb's twitter account had a habit of re tweeting literally hundreds of messages at a time which blocked up my twitter and I found really irritating! Small things and all that!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, July 17, 2015, 08:14:28
I joined the Labour party just to vote for Corbyn


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, July 17, 2015, 08:24:16
Seems a great number of Tories have done just the same.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: inept and tiresome on Monday, July 20, 2015, 20:28:14
A bit rich a TORY priminister warning a people that may become CANON FODDER.
on the other hand tories are probably the best to notice cannon fodder when they see it?
Maybe they're upset that other's  are using their resources' without asking permission.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, July 21, 2015, 07:26:29
Seems a great number of Tories have done just the same.

Good. Perhaps if Labour had provided a proper left wing, anti-austerity coherent alternative they wouldn't have been completely wiped out in Scotland, and maybe retained some seats in the rest of the UK too.

If he doesn't win, I go back to wasting my vote voting Green.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 09:52:07
I joined the Labour party just to vote for Corbyn

According to YouGov poll, Corbyn on course to become leader....this is going to be fun. back to the 80's scenario, which caused the split in Labour, and the creation of the SDP, and then onto the LibDems.

It looks to me as if we're in for some major realignments over the coming couple of years....the EU referendum, is going to open a whole big can of worms.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 10:05:01
According to YouGov poll, Corbyn on course to become leader....this is going to be fun.

Look at the Scottish referendum and the GE for the relevance of polling data recently. Stick with the bookies who don't get it wrong these days on politcial matters.

Corbyn is into 5/2 now mind you but Burnham has only drifted a little bit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 10:06:28
I met him at the Tolpuddle Festival the other day and saw him speak.  He spent his formative years in Chippenham so I like him already.  He is an unassuming character but speaks very well and has ideas that are, and I know this may seem ridiculous but, different to the government line.  

Its almost like he believes in being an opposition not a branch of the party in power with a different tie.

Im very glad he's there.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 10:07:19
According to YouGov poll, Corbyn on course to become leader....this is going to be fun. back to the 80's scenario, which caused the split in Labour, and the creation of the SDP, and then onto the LibDems.

It looks to me as if we're in for some major realignments over the coming couple of years....the EU referendum, is going to open a whole big can of worms.
the last election proved that such positions don't win elections.

The last election proved that a party with a left-leaning, anti-austerity agenda is the only thing that can stand up to the conservatives. If Labour had been true to their roots they would have kept the Scottish seats and had a good go in England too. No one voted for them because they are just Tory-lite and no real alternative.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: mexico red on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 10:17:27
That stance did ok for the snp


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 10:21:31
The structure of the leadership campaign is fairly stupid in a way.  Taking so sodding long that the tories have no real opposition is madness.  Leaving that dickhead Harman in charge, well, jesus.  No way should they have been abstaining from that horrific bill.  

The party is in a state of stasis at the moment.  You cant do anything without a leader and an ideology.

Parliment is on recess for a while now so the tories cant do too much damage whilst they're off on there holidays, but we really need to get someone in and running.  The new leader will be announced on the 12th September.  Recess for the commons finishes on the 7th.

FWIW I believe the country doesnt have to punish the poor with the draconian austerity measures tories seem intent on.  Corbyns anti austerity and I look forward to seeing his plans in more detail.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 10:25:10
If Corbyn splits the Labour Party and the EU referendum splits the Tories then we have a very interesting political landscape...

As for Corbyn, I think it speaks for how poor the 'centrist' labour figures are that he's even in contention. Nobody else seems to want to argue against austerity as if it's the only possible path: as with anything in politics, there are many ways to skin a cat and if Labour think the only way to regain economic credibility is to become the Tories then why not just join the Conservatives?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 10:35:50
The structure of the leadership campaign is fairly stupid in a way.  Taking so sodding long that the tories have no real opposition is madness.  Leaving that dickhead Harman in charge, well, jesus.  No way should they have been abstaining from that horrific bill.  

The party is in a state of stasis at the moment.  You cant do anything without a leader and an ideology.

Parliment is on recess for a while now so the tories cant do too much damage whilst they're off on there holidays, but we really need to get someone in and running.  The new leader will be announced on the 12th September.  Recess for the commons finishes on the 7th.

FWIW I believe the country doesnt have to punish the poor with the draconian austerity measures tories seem intent on.  Corbyns anti austerity and I look forward to seeing his plans in more detail.

I think its good to have a longish leadership  contest, also good to have a range of candidates....as you rightly point out, with Parliament not sitting, it's not quite so imperative to have a leader.

TBF to Harman.....Labour's manifesto was also for cuts to the benefit budget, just in a longer timescale, I think she was correctly saying it woud be hypocritical to oppose in that case as the electorate had voted for the shorter timescale.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 10:36:19
Apologies Horlock - I have fucked your post up trying to quote it - clicked modify by mistake and deleted some of it.

I was going to reply with this:

The last election proved that a party with a left-leaning, anti-austerity agenda is the only thing that can stand up to the conservatives. If Labour had been true to their roots they would have kept the Scottish seats and had a good go in England too. No one voted for them because they are just Tory-lite and no real alternative.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 10:38:27
Apologies Horlock - I have fucked your post up trying to quote it - clicked modify by mistake and deleted some of it.

I was going to reply with this:

The last election proved that a party with a left-leaning, anti-austerity agenda is the only thing that can stand up to the conservatives. If Labour had been true to their roots they would have kept the Scottish seats and had a good go in England too. No one voted for them because they are just Tory-lite and no real alternative.

Ah that explains it, I was thinking when I read it back (I posted and then walked away from computer for a bit) it looked far more coherent that what I had typed..

I don't know - fucking censorship on the TEF - what next!  :D


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 12:25:26
Apologies Horlock - I have fucked your post up trying to quote it - clicked modify by mistake and deleted some of it.

I was going to reply with this:

The last election proved that a party with a left-leaning, anti-austerity agenda is the only thing that can stand up to the conservatives. If Labour had been true to their roots they would have kept the Scottish seats and had a good go in England too. No one voted for them because they are just Tory-lite and no real alternative.

Not according to big Tone it isn't!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33619645


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 14:44:25
Yeah sorry about that!

Tony Blair is a proven liar and war criminal.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Friday, July 24, 2015, 11:24:03
 Interesting intervention from Obama, with regards to the EU referendum...Uncle Sam wants us staying in, which has got the Tory Europhobes eyes swivelling and frothing at the mouth.  Clearly Cameron has called in a favour.  Given that a Corbyn led Labour Party is going to split, like in the 80's with the SDP....I can see Labour calling for an out vote as in 75.

Then it was because the EU was seen as a banker's construct....intent on destroying worker's rights, but the subsequent Social Chapter, altered this by firming up worker's rights, one of the principle reasons the right wants out.

Greece has shown though, that perhaps the 1975 position was correct.....this is going to get very messy indeed.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: bamboonoshoe on Friday, July 24, 2015, 22:45:46
Interesting intervention from Obama, with regards to the EU referendum...Uncle Sam wants us staying in, which has got the Tory Europhobes eyes swivelling and frothing at the mouth.  Clearly Cameron has called in a favour.  Given that a Corbyn led Labour Party is going to split, like in the 80's with the SDP....I can see Labour calling for an out vote as in 75.

Then it was because the EU was seen as a banker's construct....intent on destroying worker's rights, but the subsequent Social Chapter, altered this by firming up worker's rights, one of the principle reasons the right wants out.

Greece has shown though, that perhaps the 1975 position was correct.....this is going to get very messy indeed.

Why does the following always seem to correlate;  Tory Government..........Very messy...
 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Down on Monday, September 7, 2015, 07:15:58
Something in the Adver today says that twink from Bath wants to start making his football banners political. Not in my name in case you says something that agree doesn't with my politics. Let's NOT get political please (come on you Reds excepted  :-[ )
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/13649003.Town_fans_spearhead_campaign_in_support_of_refugees/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Monday, September 7, 2015, 07:24:16
Just one quick question for Jay.

He says if you don't support the banner thingy you don't have to get involved. But if said banner is held aloft at a football match how is anyone NOT involved. Everyone is involved by association whether you want to or not.

For that reason, I'm out - if it was possible to opt out, that is.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Bogus Dave on Monday, September 7, 2015, 08:42:54
As I mentioned on Twitter, I'd much rather have Swindon fans hold up a humanitarian banner 'in my name' than get pissed and start fights with rival fans / police / general public. Or sing racist songs. Hey ho


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: lambourn red on Monday, September 7, 2015, 08:51:10
I always feel uneasy about this kind of thing , As Audrey says by virtue of being in the away end when this banner is held aloft you are assumed to be supportive of it. Ask yourself the question if someone held aloft a giant banner with "Vote Tory" or "Vote Labour" would you be happy about it if you are of the opposite political persuasion.
Now when it comes to the refugee crisis I am pretty neutral about the whole thing I can see the argument for helping some of these poor souls but on the other hand this crisis is not of our doing(unlike Iraq/Afghanistan) so I dont get why the mass media are on some sort of guilt trip.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Barry Scott on Monday, September 7, 2015, 09:42:13
It's a fucking banner. A banner stating your supposed political affiliation or some other opinion wouldn't have any effect on your life.

I hate politics on any level, but I'm aware there are bigger things to worry about than whether an opposition fan, who I've never met (and likely never will) believes that I support a few inoffensive words written on a banner held aloft by some of my fellow supporters.

People just need a reason to moan.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sippo on Monday, September 7, 2015, 09:48:11
If I got a banner and said 'We don't want refugee's', I would probably get sent to prison...

I don't have an opinion on it either way, but it's the same principle.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, September 7, 2015, 09:54:39
If I got a banner and said 'We don't want refugee's', I would probably get sent to prison...

I don't have an opinion on it either way, but it's the same principle.

Fully deserved for the superfluous apostrophe..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Monday, September 7, 2015, 09:55:06
It's a fucking banner. A banner stating your supposed political affiliation or some other opinion wouldn't have any effect on your life.

I hate politics on any level, but I'm aware there are bigger things to worry about than whether an opposition fan, who I've never met (and likely never will) believes that I support a few inoffensive words written on a banner held aloft by some of my fellow supporters.

People just need a reason to moan.
So what if the banner said something you didn't want to be associated with.

Banners are fine if an individual is brandishing it outside where people can see who is holding it and can then choose to be associated with it.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir Pissalot on Monday, September 7, 2015, 10:21:27
If I got a banner and said 'We don't want refugee's', I would probably get sent to prison...

I don't have an opinion on it either way, but it's the same principle.

No you wouldn't.  :doh:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sir Pissalot on Monday, September 7, 2015, 10:23:36
Fully deserved for the superfluous apostrophe..

In which case you should go too for the superfluous full stop.   :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Monday, September 7, 2015, 15:15:28
The last election proved that a party with a left-leaning, anti-austerity agenda is the only thing that can stand up to the conservatives. If Labour had been true to their roots they would have kept the Scottish seats and had a good go in England too. No one voted for them because they are just Tory-lite and no real alternative.


It proved no such thing.  The notion that Middle England will support a far left-leaning Labour Party over the Tories simply because the Scots kicked out the Labour party is an absurd extrapolation. There is no proof either way but the historical evidence of the previous 7 general elections suggests completely the opposite.  Why should an electorate that rejected Foot, Kinnoch and Brown but supported Blair in their millions support Corbyn?  It is this kind of wishful thinking that will keep a Tory government in power for the foreseeable future to the detriment of the very people that the left claims to care about. 


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Monday, September 7, 2015, 15:29:17
It proved no such thing.  The notion that Middle England will support a far left-leaning Labour Party over the Tories simply because the Scots kicked out the Labour party is an absurd extrapolation. There is no proof either way but the historical evidence of the previous 7 general elections suggests completely the opposite.  Why should an electorate that rejected Foot, Kinnoch and Brown but supported Blair in their millions support Corbyn?  It is this kind of wishful thinking that will keep a Tory government in power for the foreseeable future to the detriment of the very people that the left claims to care about. 
I have highlighted my concerns regarding your post and feel you need to answer something.

What's that mean?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Monday, September 7, 2015, 15:59:22
I have highlighted my concerns regarding your post and feel you need to answer something.

What's that mean?

In mathematics, extrapolation is the process of estimating, beyond the original observation range, the value of a variable on the basis of its relationship with another variable.

**disclaimer**  This was a google search and not off of the top of my head..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Monday, September 7, 2015, 16:07:02
Cheers mate. Why didn't he just fucking say that then


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, September 7, 2015, 16:20:27
 A YouGov poll at the weekend, found a majority for the first time in favour of leaving the EU.

I can see Cameron trying to wriggle his way out of this rather than hold a referendum.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Monday, September 7, 2015, 16:23:42
Hope not. We got to get the funk out of there!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Berniman on Monday, September 7, 2015, 17:02:18
Cheers mate. Why didn't he just fucking say that then

Because he wanted to come across all intelligent, innit!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, September 8, 2015, 16:26:31
A YouGov poll at the weekend, found a majority for the first time in favour of leaving the EU.

I can see Cameron trying to wriggle his way out of this rather than hold a referendum.

Don't be silly...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, September 8, 2015, 17:51:17
Don't be silly...

Cameron made a political decision to hold a referendum; he didn't make the decision expecting to lose.

If the referendum was held this week he would lose, therefore it's not beyond the realms of possibility, there may be a delay or similar.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Tuesday, September 8, 2015, 18:09:31
Cameron made a political decision to hold a referendum; he didn't make the decision expecting to lose.

If the referendum was held this week he would lose, therefore it's not beyond the realms of possibility, there may be a delay or similar.
You state that as though it's fact. Why would he lose?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ghanimah on Tuesday, September 8, 2015, 18:14:53
Cameron made a political decision to hold a referendum; he didn't make the decision expecting to lose.

If the referendum was held this week he would lose, therefore it's not beyond the realms of possibility, there may be a delay or similar.

Cameron has consistently promised a referendum by the end of 2017, he cannot simply renege on this as he is subject to Parliamentary scrutiny - yesterday's purdah's defeat neatly illustrates this. The Referendum Bill having passed the Commons is now off to the Lords. The timetable is now largely out of his hands.




Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Tuesday, September 8, 2015, 18:15:13
So what if the banner said something you didn't want to be associated with.

Banners are fine if an individual is brandishing it outside where people can see who is holding it and can then choose to be associated with it.

This has always happened at football matches, hasn't it? I dare say not everyone agreed with the first "McMahon Out" banners when they appeared.

Some people are racist. Should we remove the "Let's kick racism out of football" banners from stadiums as, you could argue, that is also a political opinion with a very small minority (of ignorant twats) supporting racist ideals and who don't agree with the message.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, September 8, 2015, 18:16:47
You state that as though it's fact. Why would he lose?

I know opinion polls aren't flavour of the month, but the trend is for an out vote.....whereas previously strongly an in vote.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: herthab on Tuesday, September 8, 2015, 18:19:01
I know opinion polls aren't flavour of the month, but the trend is for an out vote.....whereas previously strongly an in vote.
I feel a Tef poll is coming......


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Sunday, September 13, 2015, 22:42:44
So, Corbyn is in, and he's made John McDonnell Shadow Chancellor. I'd say that's about as far to the left as Labour could possibly have gone within their existing MPs. Could be an interesting few months...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Monday, September 14, 2015, 08:26:12
Looks like he's going for the "principled failure" option where he 'nobly' sticks to his ideals until he is forced out when enough of his current supporters eventually grasp that this is financial, social and of course electoral lunacy.  Then he can self-righteously claim that he has been forced out by the fascist press controlled by the business barons.  This was always the line favoured by Benn, his most obvious predecessor.

The alternative of genuinely trying to build a credible far left alternative to social democracy as the Labour opposition to the Tories, as favoured by the equally deluded but considerably more decent and honourable Michael Foot, looks like it's going to be rather too much of a dose of reality, never mind hard work.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Monday, September 14, 2015, 08:41:53
So, Corbyn is in, and he's made John McDonnell Shadow Chancellor. I'd say that's about as far to the left as Labour could possibly have gone within their existing MPs. Could be an interesting few months...

And already, the infighting has started. We're in for another lengthy period of Labour tearing out its own entrails while the nation and the government look on. Odd that Corbyn shouldn't at least try to bring the parliamentary party with him. Whatever his agenda might have been, it's unlikely to see the light of day without the support of his backbenchers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Monday, September 14, 2015, 08:55:42
I feel a banner coming on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 14, 2015, 09:47:08
To be fair to Corbyn he is learning how front line politics work, the 50% women shadow cabinet pledge appears to be quietly disappearing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Flashheart on Monday, September 14, 2015, 10:13:27
One of his shadow cabinet is a Swindon lass. I went to school with her and we were in some of the same classes. Cool story, huh?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, September 14, 2015, 10:17:02
One of his shadow cabinet is a Swindon lass. I went to school with her and we were in some of the same classes. Cool story, huh?

Isn't it scary when you realise that you are the same age as politicians - its similar to when you realise that you are starting to think some of them are a bit tasty!


Title: Re:
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, September 16, 2015, 12:25:50
As Corbyn is crowd sourcing question's for PMQ's can someone please ask him to ask Cameron what his favourite cheese is?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Wednesday, September 16, 2015, 15:04:45
I thought the point of PMQs was for the leader of the opposition to ask and press the PM with awkward questions. Not for Joe Public to put forward inane questions for the PM to trot out the government line with no follow-up questions to contend with.

Bit like Lee and his phone-ins.

Beardy wont last 6 months


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Saxondale on Wednesday, September 16, 2015, 15:54:27
Personally I thought it was a breath of fresh air from a bunch of out of touch tosspots saying 'see that smelly pile of poo, thats you that it'.

It was a bit gardeners question time but compared to the usual PMQ's everyone involved I thought looked human. That was until Cameron reverted to type and the next question after Corbyn had finished was a tory asking for a tiger.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, September 16, 2015, 17:08:12
Bit like Lee and his phone-ins.

How many of us do you think would need to email Jeremy before we could get him to ask about Miles Storey in PMQs? I'd vote Labour to see that, no problem.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, September 16, 2015, 20:33:09
Personally I thought it was a breath of fresh air from a bunch of out of touch tosspots saying 'see that smelly pile of poo, thats you that it'.

:nod:

These people are supposed to be running our country, not trying to out banter each other with childish whips.

I might not agree with some of Corbyn's left wing views, but he's certainly a welcome change.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: janaage on Wednesday, September 16, 2015, 23:33:39
:nod

I might not agree with some of Corbyn's left wing views, but he's certainly a welcome change.

Completely agree, don't agree with his economics at all, but find his approach completely refreshing. Anyone who doesn't give sky news tosser journalists the time of day deserves some credit.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: bigbobjoylove on Wednesday, September 23, 2015, 18:06:51
Saudi Arabia to crucify a teenager for attending a pro-democracy rally. Meanwhile, they're currently chairing the UN Human Rights Council.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, September 24, 2015, 15:45:41
Tory plan to sell off more of the Town's parks and leisure facilities to their chums....surely only a matter of time before Coate is finally finished off.

I have a certain admiration for Garry Perkins, people still vote for him despite the Wi-Fi thing and brilliant statements like this when talking about why Coate needs to be flogged off....

Quote
“If you take Coate Water for example, I live near there and regularly walk around. There are large parts which are not used."

I think he probably has the intelligence to realise those bits are an SSI, set aside for nature...not sure about the people that vote for him.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, September 24, 2015, 16:15:29
Was there not a session of PMQ's this week - is it because we are in conference season?

I was hoping that the cheese question was going to be raised?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Thursday, September 24, 2015, 16:22:06
I was looking forward to Cameron being serenaded by a crescendo of oink oinks


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Thursday, September 24, 2015, 19:56:05
Political parties should be banned from local politics.  Instead you should just have decent people to vote for based on what they want to do locally, rather than some charade whereby they try and "play" at being MP's locally.  It doesn't help that it attracts some right odd sorts at a local level - I mean, why would you?  Anyone with a bit of intelligence is paid too much or too busy to get involved.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 25, 2015, 09:29:19
Is there any sort of plan to this?

The farming minister is credited statements which would basically put a large percentage of the farming industry out of business  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/meat-eaters-should-be-treated-like-smokers-says-the-vegan-shadow-environment-secretary-kerry-10515299.html?cmpid=facebook-post

As every little bit emerges I become more concerned that the Corbyn project is a personal vanity project that has little objective of getting elected. Over time this is in  danger of giving Cameron an easier ride than he had before!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, September 25, 2015, 09:41:45
vegan... PAH, they don't count.. they're only one step up from anti cruelty veggies that still eat fish ;)

 no way labour would push that as policy. sounds like a newspaper sensationalist story out of context to me.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Friday, September 25, 2015, 09:49:32
I think part of it is Corbyn struggled to find any candidates willing to be too closely associated with his leadership so had to scrape quite a few barrels to come up with such a poor quality shadow cabinet.

He wont last long.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, September 25, 2015, 10:14:57
As every little bit emerges I become more concerned that the Corbyn project is a personal vanity project that has little objective of getting elected. Over time this is in  danger of giving Cameron an easier ride than he had before!

I'm hopeful this can work out ok.  Luckily Corbyn is showing all the classic extreme left distaste for actually putting his absurd agenda to the test.  Provoke a backlash that sees you replaced after a couple of years.  Much easier to go back to standing on the touchline demanding everything for everyone in the name of socialism than trying to deliver it and being exposed.  This isn't Greece.

Labour will still have time to stand up a credible leader to oppose George or Boris in 2020.  With no Lib Dem cover, the Tories will surely have opened people's eyes to the reality that an incompetent right wing government is not the answer.

The flaw in this little theory?  Finding the credible leader.  That's what I'm concerned about.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 25, 2015, 10:34:37
vegan... PAH, they don't count.. they're only one step up from anti cruelty veggies that still eat fish ;)

 no way labour would push that as policy. sounds like a newspaper sensationalist story out of context to me.

I don't think there is any chance of it being policy, but just seems to be entirely nonsensical to give someone the gig who holds these opinions (and has expressed them in writing), as someone said to me earlier it would be like making Andrew Wakefield shadow minister for health.



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, September 25, 2015, 11:01:22
I'm hopeful this can work out ok.  Luckily Corbyn is showing all the classic extreme left distaste for actually putting his absurd agenda to the test.  Provoke a backlash that sees you replaced after a couple of years.  Much easier to go back to standing on the touchline demanding everything for everyone in the name of socialism than trying to deliver it and being exposed.  This isn't Greece.

Labour will still have time to stand up a credible leader to oppose George or Boris in 2020.  With no Lib Dem cover, the Tories will surely have opened people's eyes to the reality that an incompetent right wing government is not the answer.

The flaw in this little theory?  Finding the credible leader.  That's what I'm concerned about.

Tim Farron


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Pax Romana on Friday, September 25, 2015, 11:32:12
Tim Farron

perfect!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 25, 2015, 11:41:54
Tim Farron

Met Tim Farron once, very clever and inspirational guy!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, September 25, 2015, 15:34:28
I don't think there is any chance of it being policy, but just seems to be entirely nonsensical to give someone the gig who holds these opinions (and has expressed them in writing), as someone said to me earlier it would be like making Andrew Wakefield shadow minister for health.



Works in the US - check out Blackburn I think it is, she's on an energy committee and is firmly against the theory of climate change and has also publically rebuked the concept of evolution, along with equal pay for women.  Now, the climate change one could be a scientific argument, but she's against it on principle, not because of science!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Friday, September 25, 2015, 15:46:52
Works in the US - check out Blackburn I think it is, she's on an energy committee and is firmly against the theory of climate change and has also publically rebuked the concept of evolution, along with equal pay for women.  Now, the climate change one could be a scientific argument, but she's against it on principle, not because of science!

It gets a little embarrassing when the Pope is a little more accommodating and less dogmatic than you are...

I cannot wait until Trump gets in and we get more of this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34342808


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, September 25, 2015, 19:10:29

As every little bit emerges I become more concerned that the Corbyn project is a personal vanity project that has little objective of getting elected.

Ha. You think JC has some kind of control? Seriously, there's the Scottish elections in the spring and the majority of the English local elections. There will be a new Labour leader before the EU referendum. If there isn't, Labour will have committed suicide. And for the record, 'I'll dance on their grave'.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Friday, September 25, 2015, 19:34:57
Ha. You think JC has some kind of control? Seriously, there's the Scottish elections in the spring and the majority of the English local elections. There will be a new Labour leader before the EU referendum. If there isn't, Labour will have committed suicide. And for the record, 'I'll dance on their grave'.

I agree with Ironside.

Except for the last bit.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, September 25, 2015, 20:03:03
I agree with Ironside.

Except for the last bit.
I'll take that as an endorsement and based on your recommendation, urge you all to vote for me...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 21, 2015, 10:14:35
 See Justin Tomlinson is in the naughty corner....showing confidential documents on payday loan legislation to a Wonga employee.  I'm inclined to believe his excuse of stupidity rather than corruption...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Summerof69 on Wednesday, October 21, 2015, 10:16:12
See Justin Tomlinson is in the naughty corner....showing confidential documents on payday loan legislation to a Wonga employee.  I'm inclined to believe his excuse of stupidity rather than corruption...

Justin did arrange for Wonga to sponsor Supermarine a few years back. Is this a coincidence?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 21, 2015, 10:29:31
Justin did arrange for Wonga to sponsor Supermarine a few years back. Is this a coincidence?

 :hmmm:


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 21, 2015, 10:58:58
:hmmm:

I assume that he kknows someone in the Wonga hierarchy?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Wednesday, October 21, 2015, 15:40:41
On a more national level, following the death of Michael Meacher, the forthcoming by election in Oldham will provide an interesting illustration of where things are going for Labour and Mr Corbyn?

I suspect the constituency is too staunchly Labour to see any great swing (and thus illustrate how the public feel about Corbyn), but the candidate selection process will answer a few questions.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 21, 2015, 15:55:25
On a more national level, following the death of Michael Meacher, the forthcoming by election in Oldham will provide an interesting illustration of where things are going for Labour and Mr Corbyn?

I suspect the constituency is too staunchly Labour to see any great swing (and thus illustrate how the public feel about Corbyn), but the candidate selection process will answer a few questions.

Meacher was one of 4, who got re-elected in May, who'd originally been in the intake of 1970 and served continuously.  Others...Gerald Kaufman, Beast of Bolsover and Ken Clarke.

Meacher backed Corbyn at the initial selection, so I'm guessing the CLP, will pick a a proper Labour candidiate....and not if one of the others had won parachute in Ed Balls.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Monday, October 26, 2015, 13:17:13
I assume that he kknows someone in the Wonga hierarchy?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tory-minister-caught-leaking-document-6685345

Coincidence is a wonderful thing....bit like Blatter and Platini.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, October 26, 2015, 13:32:19
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tory-minister-caught-leaking-document-6685345

Coincidence is a wonderful thing....bit like Blatter and Platini.

I would suspect that we should be more concerned that Mr Tomlinson insists on referencing himself in the third person?

'Mr Tomlinson said: “Jez made donations to Justin in a personal capacity. It is entirely incorrect to suggest other motivations.”'

So are Supermarine being used as some manner of front to channel money from Wonga to the Tories, I can imagine an absolute hammering from the FA if this is the case?

Wealthy person paying for access and favours from MP's is hardly new though is it, just been reading a book regarding Bernie Ecclestone and the section regarding Ecclestone, Labour and £1m followed rapidly by changes to polic regarding tobacco advertising  make grim reading, as is the manner that Ecclestone was hung out to dry by Blair and Jonathan Powell immediately it became public knowledge.

Its a dirty old world and I hate to break to you Reg, but they are all at it!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Amir on Monday, October 26, 2015, 14:20:34
I didn't know Meacher had died. What'll happen to all his houses?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Combe Down on Wednesday, November 11, 2015, 00:43:46
'Save (Y)Our Steel' banner v. Scunny this Saturday?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Jamiesfuturewife on Friday, November 20, 2015, 19:50:52
I went on a PE conference today and Justin Tomlinson was a key note speaker, rather randomly because he "wants" to be the minister for sport?!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: ronnie21 on Friday, November 20, 2015, 20:09:43
Cannot really see the Minister for Wonga being a sports minister!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 15:05:03
Autumn Statement today. Headlines seem to be complete u-turn on tax credits, no cuts in funding for the police and a huge rise in the defence budget. Main losers seem to be student nurses (odd choice considering the difficulty they're having with junior doctors) and buy to let landlords (fucking finally)

Oh, and John McDonnell is the best argument for voting Conservative I've yet seen. He's literally quoting Mao.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 15:19:42
I particularly enjoyed the bit of his speech where he told us Labour would cull the debt quicker but spend more on public services! Oh the laughs.

Almost makes you pine for Milliband/Balls as opposed to the current shambles


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 16:00:03
Unless you are wealthy I can't see any reason to vote conservative. Even then it would be for selfish reasons and not the good of the nation.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 16:10:22
 2 concerns....plan to cover the country in housing....house building multi-national's share prices have shot up.  

Statement that Councils have £250 bill of assets to get shot of....in return they can use money to make up cuts. Conclusion....SBC will be looking to get rid of assets like the CG, for housing or a football ground if someone can find the market price, becasue of the Asset of Community Value thing.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 17:05:24
SBC are strange in being a council which really doesn't care for selling assets. The egos of those in power would rather hang on to them than sell them off for someone else to develop a site and not getting any credit for themselves.

The Mechanics is a good case. When BR was nationalised the government forced them to sell off any assets they had if it wasn't directly concerned with the transport side. The Council could have bought the Mechanics for £1 but ummed and ahed and a private buyer bought it for £50,000. Two sales later and the owner, Matthew Singh, did a runner after welching on an agreement to renovate.

The site passed to the Crowns Estate with the council having a charge on the building but don't really want the cost of insuring it or its upkeep.

Yet they won't sell to the Mechanics Trust because their plans for renovating look good and would be popular and the Council don't want someone else getting the credit.

Hence the impasse.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 17:25:57
 Just as a point of information....British Rail Properties Board, was "sold" in the first wave of Thatcherite gifts to her supporters, in the early mid 80's. The Mechanics went then, like STFC's "A"Ground along Shrivenham Road where the club was evicted from its historic training ground.

The transport giveaway, was a scorched earth policy of the retreating Major government in the mid 90's.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 17:27:28
Reg, as a guess what do you reckon they would sell the CG for?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 17:30:05
Reg, as a guess what do you reckon they would sell the CG for?

The whole complex, probably between 70-80 mill.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 17:33:03
Fuck me. I thought about £10m.

Other than the ground itself what else comprises the site?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 17:37:44
Fuck me. I thought about £10m.

Other than the ground itself what else comprises the site?

Cricket Ground.....Extension.....Athletics track.....Bowling green....old kiddy's park....green bit in Shrivenham Road....car park


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 17:38:57
Ah, didn't realise it encompassed all that. Thought it was just the CG plus car park.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 17:44:47
Isn't there a specific restriction on it having to be used for leisure purposes though? If it can't be used for housing, that would significantly restrict the value.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 17:53:41
Isn't there a specific restriction on it having to be used for leisure purposes though? If it can't be used for housing, that would significantly restrict the value.

Convenants can be bought out...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: FreddySTFC! on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 17:58:32
Convenants can be bought out...
Covenant, it's covenant!!!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 17:59:07
Convenants can be bought out...

But then where will the nuns live?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, November 25, 2015, 18:18:10
Covenant, it's covenant!!!

The perils of multi-tasking.....cooking pressed cod roe fish cakes, at the same time as posting requires more concentration than I thought.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: blah blah on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 11:22:54
The cricket pavilion is a listed building, so even if the covenant is bought out and its sold for housing, the pavilion has to remain in situ. Would look a bit odd in the middle of a housing estate !


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 11:27:38
SBC are fucking clowns at the best of times but I would be extremely surprised if they ever sold the County Ground. The uproar would be huge.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 11:44:06
SBC are fucking clowns at the best of times but I would be extremely surprised if they ever sold the County Ground. The uproar would be huge.

You do realise that funding to local councils has been cut by 50%....and that they're pretty much left with dealing with the statutory crap that can't be flogged off?

Over half of council tax monies go on care of people with special needs, the elderly, children, asylum seekers, the homless....they're not going away, in fact it's a growing number.

Osborne is permitting a small increase in Council Tax, to address this, but some assets will have to be sold.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Tails on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:01:28
That doesn't change my view at all.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:10:39
That doesn't change my view at all.

It is of course possible that SBC could sell the CG and it stay as a football ground....the Trust have got first dibs. That way eveyone's a winner.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:24:05
 While this thread is at the top, Cameron today is outlining his case for bombing ISIS, 2 years ago, he wanted to bomb Assad to aid ISIS, now the other way around.

 I'm with Corbyn on this, let's keep out.   What say you TEFers?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:26:01
The cricket pavilion is a listed building, so even if the covenant is bought out and its sold for housing, the pavilion has to remain in situ.
No it doesn't. It can be moved and reconstructed elsewhere. It's another obstacle/expense but like the covenant it's not a blocker, simply a question of there being enough profit in any deal to make it worth a developer's while.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Sippo on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:33:49
While this thread is at the top, Cameron today is outlining his case for bombing ISIS, 2 years ago, he wanted to bomb Assad to aid ISIS, now the other way around.

 I'm with Corbyn on this, let's keep out.   What say you TEFers?

Before the paris massacre, I would have said 'go for it'. Now not so sure. With the possibility of revenge is it worth it?

On the other hand, how do we rectify the awful situation?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:36:22
Before the paris massacre, I would have said 'go for it'. Now not so sure. With the possibility of revenge is it worth it?
Makes no odds. We are well on ISIS's radar whether or not we bomb Syria. Whatever we do though, this time, unlike Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, we need a proper plan for what we do AFTER the bombing/invasion/total obliteration of the entire region. I have no great hope that we will do that and so once ISIS are destroyed they'll just be replaced by something worse and the cycle will go on.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:36:39
While this thread is at the top, Cameron today is outlining his case for bombing ISIS, 2 years ago, he wanted to bomb Assad to aid ISIS, now the other way around.

 I'm with Corbyn on this, let's keep out.   What say you TEFers?

Think Corbyn's position is a bit more nuanced than that on this one.

I have absolutely no moral objection to bombing the everloving crap out of ISIS. However, that in itself does not solve the issue: Cameron's claiming that there are 70,000 "moderate Syrian" fighters to step in as ground forces - that sounds a lot like wishful thinking. Ultimately, Assad is a terrible human being, but might be the only way of keeping the country from falling apart utterly. The Kurds genuinely deserve our support, but supporting them means upsetting Turkey.

The geopolitics here are extremely complicated, well beyond who we should and shouldn't bomb. No easy answers.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:44:17
Before the paris massacre, I would have said 'go for it'. Now not so sure. With the possibility of revenge is it worth it?

On the other hand, how do we rectify the awful situation?

No idea, but I'm pretty sure that dropping a few bombs in Syria, isn't going to help.

Cameron seems to think it's not cricket to leave it to the French and US....however we managed this in Vietnam, and those campaigns didn't get either of our allies very far.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 12:44:38
What Paul said really.

We can't roll over though and let them tickle our tummies so a bit of strategic carpet bombing to destroy some of the nasty cunts and their assets needs to be done.

They are probably going to do more shit to "us" regardless


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:11:04
The Kurds genuinely deserve our support, but supporting them means upsetting Turkey.
All the more reason to support the Kurds. The Turks and the Saudis are a big part of the problem in that region, and in the case of the Saudis the broader spread of militant sectarian Sunni terrorism (which is what ISIS is), but Western politicians daren't say so because they're our "allies". And of course we daren't bomb the Saudis because they're really well armed. We know that because we sold them the fucking things.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:11:26
What Paul said really.

We can't roll over though and let them tickle our tummies so a bit of strategic carpet bombing to destroy some of the nasty cunts and their assets needs to be done.

They are probably going to do more shit to "us" regardless

The US have already dropped tons of ordnance on Syria to little discernible effect....the revelation of a network of tunnels in Sinjar, probably tells us that ISIS have taken a leaf out of the Viet-Cong book on how to defeat the US.

Cameron is making a political decision rather than a strategic decision, there will be serious opposition to this from the people of Britain, let your MP know if you object.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:12:24
Cricket Ground.....Extension.....Athletics track.....Bowling green....old kiddy's park....green bit in Shrivenham Road....car park

It would be a planning nightmare with Sport England if nothing else to get any sort of permission on most of that, plus as the Council are land owners and would benefit from any permission granted it would need to go to the Secretary of State to grant permission.

Any developer with any sense would want such a conditional contract and the time take taken to achieve consent be so long that the land is essentially worthless to the Council.

If the Council want to raise some reddies now would however be a good time to the Trust to go to see the Council and discuss how much they may wish to achieve to get the liability off their hands?

If the rent is say £250k/annum  even with a c.8% yield its only worth just over £3m.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jimmy_onions on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:13:26
isn't strategic carpet bombing a bit of an oxymoron?
(or was that a joke?)
I saw a video yesterday about the collateral damage in syria, e.g lots of tiny children with horrific injuries caused by bombing. Not for the faint hearted.
I think that was more a result of assads or russian bombs, but either way. Does tend to focus the mind
What does 'bomb isis targets' actually mean? Its not as if they are all gathered at a huge hq.
I vote stay out this time.
My feeling is bombing is exactly the response they are after...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:20:01
My feeling is bombing is exactly the response they are after...
No, what they want is a full-scale Western invasion. They genuinely believe that they are the agents of the apocalypse, the Biblical "end times" and they see a final confrontation with the West in Syria as the prerequisite to the end of the world. However, their batshit beliefs shouldn't necessarily preclude us from doing that if we genuinely think it is the right thing to do AND we actually have a proper "after the fighting" plan this time.

They also very much want precisely the reaction they've had from some here and on social media, of a broad backlash against Islam in general as they see that (rightly) as helping their cause as it helps create an "us and them" atmosphere that they've profited from so well in the Sunni vs Shia civil war in Iraq (and the West's abject failure to understand, much less manage that).


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:20:55
isn't strategic carpet bombing a bit of an oxymoron?
(or was that a joke?)
I saw a video yesterday about the collateral damage in syria, e.g lots of tiny children with horrific injuries caused by bombing. Not for the faint hearted.
I think that was more a result of assads or russian bombs, but either way. Does tend to focus the mind
What does 'bomb isis targets' actually mean? Its not as if they are all gathered at a huge hq.
I vote stay out this time.
My feeling is bombing is exactly the response they are after...

This. More bombing only answers the public urge for revenge which in turn creates victims whose families seek... revenge, and so it goes on. We've been doing this since the 1960s and when has it ever worked? What's that definition of madness? Doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jimmy_onions on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:23:45
No, what they want is a full-scale Western invasion. They genuinely believe that they are the agents of the apocalypse, the Biblical "end times" and they see a final confrontation with the West in Syria as the prerequisite to the end of the world. However, their batshit beliefs shouldn't necessarily preclude us from doing that if we genuinely think it is the right thing to do AND we actually have a proper "after the fighting" plan this time.

They also very much want precisely the reaction they've had from some here and on social media, of a broad backlash against Islam in general as they see that (rightly) as helping their cause as it helps create an "us and them" atmosphere that they've profited from so well in the Sunni vs Shia civil war in Iraq (and the West's abject failure to understand, much less manage that).

Don't disagree, in more general terms an 'armed response' is part of what they are after, full scale invasion would be playing into their hands entirely, bombing is nicely stoking the flames a little


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:27:26
Don't disagree, in more general terms an 'armed response' is part of what they are after, full scale invasion would be playing into their hands entirely, bombing is nicely stoking the flames a little

Which is why it's important for any force to be a UN-sponsored broad coalition, including regional forces, rather than another US-led crusade.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:29:01
While this thread is at the top, Cameron today is outlining his case for bombing ISIS, 2 years ago, he wanted to bomb Assad to aid ISIS, now the other way around.

 I'm with Corbyn on this, let's keep out.   What say you TEFers?

I get the impression that Cameron is shitting himself to get this right after the activities of Blair, and the suggestions that he has rapidly gone from poster boy of new labour to war criminal - politicians are very aware of their 'legacy' Corbyn apparently more than most whatevere he may claim.

Tim Farron has written a letter to Cameron detailing what he needs to do in order to gain Lib Dem MP's and peer support...

In advance of your statement outlining your plan for military intervention against ISIL in Syria, we are writing to outline the criteria against which we will judge our response to your proposals.

As you will know our party has maintained a consistent position that airstrikes alone will not defeat ISIL in Syria. Deployment of lethal force should never be used simply as a gesture. It has to have effect, and to have effect it has to be part of a wider strategy, especially on the diplomatic front.

We are encouraged by the fact that the Government has at last decided to explain the details of that strategy and look forward to hearing what this is.

The five conditions below give the UK the best chance at having an effective strategy to counter ISIL and make serious progress in ending the Syrian civil war. We call on you to embed them into your plans before they are brought to the House of Commons on Thursday.

These conditions are:

1.   Legal

Military intervention must follow an international legal framework. We believe this has been provided by UN Resolution 2249 which urges members to take “all reasonable measures” to defeat ISIL.

This is the instrument with which all those opposed to ISIL have the means to coordinate military action to defeat them, including regional actors on the ground.

2.       Wider diplomatic framework including efforts towards a no-bomb zone to protect civilians

Any military action by the UK must be part of a wider international effort involving all who have an interest in defeating ISIL, as a prelude to ending the conflict in Syria, including Russia, Iran and Turkey.

The UK Government should use all efforts to ensure that the Vienna talks succeed in bringing together the broadest possible support for action to end the war in Syria and effect political transition.

In addition, we call on the government to explicitly work towards ending the Syrian regime’s bombing of civilianswith a no-bomb zone to maximise civilian protection and allow for an upscaling of humanitarian access.

3.       UK led pressure on Gulf States for increased support in the region

The UK should lead a concerted international effort to put pressure on the Gulf States, specifically Saudi Arabia and the Emiratis, to stop the funding of jihadi groups within the region and worldwide and do much more to assist in the effort to defeat ISIL, establish peace in Syria and help with the refugee situation. They are currently doing very little, despite claiming to be part of the anti-ISIL coalition.

ISIL is not just a Western problem, and this is one way of preventing them from framing the situation in that way.

4.       Post-ISIL plan

The government must be absolutely clear on what Syria and Iraq will look like post-ISIL, and what post-conflict strategy (including an exit strategy) they propose to give the best chance of avoiding a power vacuum. This must be linked to the above diplomatic framework which will outline steps for ending the wider conflict in Syria.

5.       Domestic

We acknowledge that the fight against ISIL is not just in the Middle East: it is within Europe and it is here in the UK. We call on the government to immediately publish its 2014 investigation into the Muslim Brotherhood and also call on them to conduct an investigation into foreign funding and support of extremist and terrorist groups in the UK.

We call on the government to step up its acceptance of Syrian refugees, and opt in to Save the Children’s proposal to rehome 3000 unaccompanied refugee children from with Europe.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:31:28
Don't disagree, in more general terms an 'armed response' is part of what they are after, full scale invasion would be playing into their hands entirely, bombing is nicely stoking the flames a little
A full-scale invasion is the only thing that is going to get rid of them. Or at least troops on the ground anyway and so far the "strategy" of operating through limited proxies (a Kurdish force attacked by the Turks and hamstrung by our unwillingness to upset our "allies", the laughably inept and corrupt Iraqi army, Assad's murderers and various rag-bag equally murderous Shia militias) coupled with bombing has achieved jack-shit. If we want to get rid of ISIS by military means then we need to decide that we're prepared to do that and stay and sort out the mess after. And yes that means we need to be prepared for the body bags/pictures of POWs being brutally tortured and executed to come in too. But if we were prepared to take the casualties for some oil, neo-con hard-ons and Blair's mad ego for Iraq, this is a far more worthy cause. Plus we helped cause it so we kind of have an obligation to help sort out the mess we helped create.

Otherwise, we should sit at home and wait for them to go stronger and stronger until we can't dislodge them. Pretty much as we have done for the past four years, in fact. "Nicely stoking the flames a little" might sound nice but as Reg says, it's really just headline grabbing and political face-saving.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Skinny Pete on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:33:08
Just nuke the fuckers and get it over with

Whimsy!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:33:27
I get the impression that Cameron is shitting himself to get this right after the activities of Blair, and the suggestions that he has rapidly gone from poster boy of new labour to war criminal - politicians are very aware of their 'legacy' Corbyn apparently more than most whatevere he may claim.

Tim Farron has written a letter to Cameron detailing what he needs to do in order to gain Lib Dem MP's and peer support...

In advance of your statement outlining your plan for military intervention against ISIL in Syria, we are writing to outline the criteria against which we will judge our response to your proposals.

As you will know our party has maintained a consistent position that airstrikes alone will not defeat ISIL in Syria. Deployment of lethal force should never be used simply as a gesture. It has to have effect, and to have effect it has to be part of a wider strategy, especially on the diplomatic front.

We are encouraged by the fact that the Government has at last decided to explain the details of that strategy and look forward to hearing what this is.

The five conditions below give the UK the best chance at having an effective strategy to counter ISIL and make serious progress in ending the Syrian civil war. We call on you to embed them into your plans before they are brought to the House of Commons on Thursday.

These conditions are:

1.   Legal

Military intervention must follow an international legal framework. We believe this has been provided by UN Resolution 2249 which urges members to take “all reasonable measures” to defeat ISIL.

This is the instrument with which all those opposed to ISIL have the means to coordinate military action to defeat them, including regional actors on the ground.

2.       Wider diplomatic framework including efforts towards a no-bomb zone to protect civilians

Any military action by the UK must be part of a wider international effort involving all who have an interest in defeating ISIL, as a prelude to ending the conflict in Syria, including Russia, Iran and Turkey.

The UK Government should use all efforts to ensure that the Vienna talks succeed in bringing together the broadest possible support for action to end the war in Syria and effect political transition.

In addition, we call on the government to explicitly work towards ending the Syrian regime’s bombing of civilianswith a no-bomb zone to maximise civilian protection and allow for an upscaling of humanitarian access.

3.       UK led pressure on Gulf States for increased support in the region

The UK should lead a concerted international effort to put pressure on the Gulf States, specifically Saudi Arabia and the Emiratis, to stop the funding of jihadi groups within the region and worldwide and do much more to assist in the effort to defeat ISIL, establish peace in Syria and help with the refugee situation. They are currently doing very little, despite claiming to be part of the anti-ISIL coalition.

ISIL is not just a Western problem, and this is one way of preventing them from framing the situation in that way.

4.       Post-ISIL plan

The government must be absolutely clear on what Syria and Iraq will look like post-ISIL, and what post-conflict strategy (including an exit strategy) they propose to give the best chance of avoiding a power vacuum. This must be linked to the above diplomatic framework which will outline steps for ending the wider conflict in Syria.

5.       Domestic

We acknowledge that the fight against ISIL is not just in the Middle East: it is within Europe and it is here in the UK. We call on the government to immediately publish its 2014 investigation into the Muslim Brotherhood and also call on them to conduct an investigation into foreign funding and support of extremist and terrorist groups in the UK.

We call on the government to step up its acceptance of Syrian refugees, and opt in to Save the Children’s proposal to rehome 3000 unaccompanied refugee children from with Europe.

That's really rather good, actually. And covers much of the "Shh, let's not talk about that" stuff that so far hasn't entered the rather puerile "discussion" of ISIS in the mainstream media.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:36:36
http://newsthump.com/2015/03/09/boko-haram-offers-to-join-islamic-state-in-return-for-their-bank-details/


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:37:32
That's really rather good, actually. And covers much of the "Shh, let's not talk about that" stuff that so far hasn't entered the rather puerile "discussion" of ISIS in the mainstream media.

Just a shme the LibDems have as many MP's as the DUP.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:40:03
Just a shme the LibDems have as many MP's as the DUP.

But they have quite a presence in the Lords, just a pity they seem to be having to act as her majesty's opposition whilst the Labour Leadership and PLP wave their bits around rather than trying to act for the good of the country....


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 13:45:51
But they have quite a presence in the Lords, just a pity they seem to be having to act as her majesty's opposition whilst the Labour Leadership and PLP wave their bits around rather than trying to act for the good of the country....

Yes strange isn't it....how stacks of them can get into the unelected Lords, but are rejected by ordinary voters.

It's fair to say that many in the PLP, are out of step with the leadership and membership, and are trying to save their own skin, and are therefore not to be trusted.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 14:05:44
Yes strange isn't it....how stacks of them can get into the unelected Lords, but are rejected by ordinary voters.

It's fair to say that many in the PLP, are out of step with the leadership and membership, and are trying to save their own skin, and are therefore not to be trusted.

Much like Labour then... rejected by ordinary voters.

Yeah but without them most of the welfare stuff being promoted by the Tories would be sailing through, interesting that more Labour peers voted against the Lib Dem fatal motion promoted by the Lib Dems than abstained.

Its all very well Corbyn having his vanity project and the PLP resisting it but its the rest of the country that is suffering in the absense of an opposition whilst they have their cock waving competition.

Thankfully Osbourne is so keen to ensure that he retains his centre right position, drifting into the position vacated by New Labour, that he took the opportunity to soften things a little. At the present time the Tories seem to essentially have carte blanche to do what they like whilst Labour just bicker!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 14:13:04
But they have quite a presence in the Lords, just a pity they seem to be having to act as her majesty's opposition whilst the Labour Leadership and PLP wave their bits around rather than trying to act for the good of the country....

Yes strange isn't it....how stacks of them can get into the unelected Lords, but are rejected by ordinary voters.

Sorry for banging the PR drum yet again, but the Lib Dems - along with UKIP - are massively under-represented in the Commons as a result of the indefensible First Past the Post electoral system.  Similarly, the SNP is massively over-represented.

First Past the Post distorts everything, including political debate and the perception of values held by the voting public.  The Lib Dems won 7.9% of the vote in May which, on a proportional basis, would give them 51 parliamentary seats - and not the 8 they actually took up.  Because they won only 8, they're treated as also-rans.  They shouldn't be.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 14:15:13
Sorry for banging the PR drum yet again, but the Lib Dems - along with UKIP - are massively under-represented in the Commons as a result of the indefensible First Past the Post electoral system.  Similarly, the SNP is massively over-represented.

First Past the Post distorts everything, including political debate and the perception of values held by the voting public.  The Lib Dems won 7.9% of the vote in May which, on a proportional basis, would give them 51 parliamentary seats - and not the 8 they actually took up.  Because they won only 8, they're treated as also-rans.  They shouldn't be.

I'm keen on electoral reform myself, but pure PR applied to the results of the last election (which is dodgy as people may have voted differently etc.) would have given a Tory/UKIP coalition. Which is terrifying.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 14:23:09
Check out what Dennis Skinner said today(currently trending on Twitter) I am with him and Reg. Out !


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 14:38:40
I'm keen on electoral reform myself, but pure PR applied to the results of the last election (which is dodgy as people may have voted differently etc.) would have given a Tory/UKIP coalition. Which is terrifying.

Maybe so.  But it's what people voted for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 14:39:33
Maybe so.  But it's what people voted for.

People like Coldplay and voted for Hitler Mark, you can't trust people.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 14:49:22
I'm keen on electoral reform myself, but pure PR applied to the results of the last election (which is dodgy as people may have voted differently etc.) would have given a Tory/UKIP coalition. Which is terrifying.

If the voting system was changed, many people would vote differently, I suspect.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 16:08:53
If the voting system was changed, many people would vote differently, I suspect.

You mean, if they thought their vote might actually count for something?

Not like the UK electorate to be generally scared of making any change to the status quo though, is it.

Nation of shopkeepers, was it?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 16:13:23
Nation of shopkeepers, was it?

Indeed but good enough to to destroy the Bonapartist fantasy of French European/global hegemony.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 16:16:03
This man could possibly become US president... and we think we have problems....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34930042


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 17:24:41
Indeed but good enough to to destroy the Bonapartist fantasy of French European/global hegemony.

I knew who would bite at that.  :bye:

Bonaparte's success, particularly in setting up institutions and administrations that remain to this day, has always been underplayed in the UK, not unnaturally. And his legacy of French influence in Europe is rather greater than plucky little England's.

Does your suspicion of our Gallic cousins stem from a deep-rooted sense of inferiority, I wonder Reginald?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 17:28:25
I knew who would bite at that.  :bye:

Bonaparte's success, particularly in setting up institutions and administrations that remain to this day, has always been underplayed in the UK, not unnaturally. And his legacy of French influence in Europe is rather greater than plucky little England's.

Does your suspicion of our Gallic cousins stem from a deep-rooted sense of inferiority, I wonder Reginald?

Leave Reg alone, he hates Thatcher more than Bonaparte.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 17:36:16
French red tape is horrific, but Bonaparte's division of the country in to clearly defined Regions and, below that, the 100 Departments which people properly identify with is something to be proud of.  Vastly superior to the disorderly mish-mash of counties (some historic, which do not even exist in the political sense any more) & unitary authorities that we put up with.

A Frenchman knows where he's from.  But is Swindon in Wiltshire any more?  Is Kingston in London or is it in Surrey?  Is Scunthorpe a part of Humberside, Lincolnshire or N Lincolnshire?  All open to debate.  It's a mess.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 18:00:26
French red tape is horrific, but Bonaparte's division of the country in to clearly defined Regions and, below that, the 100 Departments which people properly identify with is something to be proud of.  Vastly superior to the disorderly mish-mash of counties (some historic, which do not even exist in the political sense any more) & unitary authorities that we put up with.

A Frenchman knows where he's from.  But is Swindon in Wiltshire any more?  Is Kingston in London or is it in Surrey?  Is Scunthorpe a part of Humberside, Lincolnshire or N Lincolnshire?  All open to debate.  It's a mess.

You say that but when my old man moved to France, it was considerably less bureaucratic than the hassle he had moving back 10 years later, its taken them nearly a year to get many of the things sorted now they are back in the UK.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 18:47:50
Does your suspicion of our Gallic cousins stem from a deep-rooted sense of inferiority, I wonder Reginald?

I think suspicion of people who came up with a calendar, with these months is justified....

1 Vendémiaire   7 Germinal
2 Brumaire   8 Floréal
3 Frimaire   9 Prairial
4 Nivôse   10 Messidor
5 Pluviôse   11 Thermidor
6 Ventôse   12 Fructidor

The months then divided into 3 sets of 10 days, with only 3 days of rest.....add in the attempt to decimalise time. Thank fuck for the Greenwich Meridian.

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/04/article-2044937-0E31C7E100000578-978_468x532.jpg)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 19:20:00
This man could possibly become US president... and we think we have problems....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34930042


There is absolutely no danger of Trump being elected.

More worryingly, there's a strong chance that Clinton will be elected.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 19:26:36
As long as it's the Democratic candidate, that's all that really matters


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 19:35:02
I think suspicion of people who came up with a calendar, with these months is justified....

1 Vendémiaire   7 Germinal
2 Brumaire   8 Floréal
3 Frimaire   9 Prairial
4 Nivôse   10 Messidor
5 Pluviôse   11 Thermidor
6 Ventôse   12 Fructidor

The months then divided into 3 sets of 10 days, with only 3 days of rest.....add in the attempt to decimalise time. Thank fuck for the Greenwich Meridian.

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/04/article-2044937-0E31C7E100000578-978_468x532.jpg)

Well despite its pretty imagery, France dumped that before long, in the interest of international alignment (England take note). Generations of Brits should be eternally grateful to Europe for decimalisation though. 16oz to a lb (which obviously stands for pound) but 14lbs to 1 st; 8pts to 1gal; 12d to 1s; 1760 snappy yds to 1 mile. All very quaint, but makes for nightmarish calculations.

And Ardiles, if France used to be horribly bureaucratic, these days most admin things run much more smoothly than their equivalents in the UK, in my experience. Except I do wish they'd institute an Oyster card system on the Paris metro.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Samdy Gray on Thursday, November 26, 2015, 19:52:32
As long as it's the Democratic candidate, that's all that really matters

Sanders preferably.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, November 27, 2015, 18:47:21
A full-scale invasion is the only thing that is going to get rid of them. Or at least troops on the ground anyway and so far the "strategy" of operating through limited proxies (a Kurdish force attacked by the Turks and hamstrung by our unwillingness to upset our "allies", the laughably inept and corrupt Iraqi army, Assad's murderers and various rag-bag equally murderous Shia militias) coupled with bombing has achieved jack-shit. If we want to get rid of ISIS by military means then we need to decide that we're prepared to do that and stay and sort out the mess after. And yes that means we need to be prepared for the body bags/pictures of POWs being brutally tortured and executed to come in too. But if we were prepared to take the casualties for some oil, neo-con hard-ons and Blair's mad ego for Iraq, this is a far more worthy cause. Plus we helped cause it so we kind of have an obligation to help sort out the mess we helped create.

Otherwise, we should sit at home and wait for them to go stronger and stronger until we can't dislodge them. Pretty much as we have done for the past four years, in fact. "Nicely stoking the flames a little" might sound nice but as Reg says, it's really just headline grabbing and political face-saving.
I agree with every word of this post.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, November 27, 2015, 18:49:08
But they have quite a presence in the Lords, just a pity they seem to be having to act as her majesty's opposition whilst the Labour Leadership and PLP wave their bits around rather than trying to act for the good of the country....
The commons do not need the Lord's on their side to act on Foreign affairs.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, November 27, 2015, 18:52:58
I'm keen on electoral reform myself, but pure PR applied to the results of the last election (which is dodgy as people may have voted differently etc.) would have given a Tory/UKIP coalition. Which is terrifying.
Or as sane people describe it, perfect.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, November 27, 2015, 18:55:40
People like Coldplay and voted for Hitler Mark, you can't trust people.
You're absolutely correct. Here's a darkened room, a revolver with a single round in it and a bottle of Whisky.

You know it's the right thing to do but do let us know if you need anything else to assist you...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, November 27, 2015, 18:57:11
I knew who would bite at that.  :bye:

Bonaparte's success, particularly in setting up institutions and administrations that remain to this day, has always been underplayed in the UK, not unnaturally. And his legacy of French influence in Europe is rather greater than plucky little England's.

Does your suspicion of our Gallic cousins stem from a deep-rooted sense of inferiority, I wonder Reginald?
I think we have an example of Stockholm syndrome right here.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, November 27, 2015, 18:58:09
French red tape is horrific, but Bonaparte's division of the country in to clearly defined Regions and, below that, the 100 Departments which people properly identify with is something to be proud of.  Vastly superior to the disorderly mish-mash of counties (some historic, which do not even exist in the political sense any more) & unitary authorities that we put up with.

A Frenchman knows where he's from.  But is Swindon in Wiltshire any more?  Is Kingston in London or is it in Surrey?  Is Scunthorpe a part of Humberside, Lincolnshire or N Lincolnshire?  All open to debate.  It's a mess.
That's down to education.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Friday, November 27, 2015, 20:33:16
You shouldn't need a degree to understand things like that.  That's the point.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 00:32:58
You shouldn't need a degree to understand things like that.  That's the point.
Indeed...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Not that Nice If I'm Honest on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 00:56:50
I like Ironsides

He gets a lot of hate on here, but he says what he thinks.

To be honest, some of it offends some people, but some people are offended by facts



Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 02:00:42
I like Ironsides

He gets a lot of hate on here, but he says what he thinks.

To be honest, some of it offends some people, but some people are offended by facts

You may not know but Ironside was granted a special evening by the mods on the TEF, whereby he could clearly put forward his points of view to questioning by members.

This was a rare honour, almost granted previously to Mark Devlin, and granted to Steve Murrall, by the Jedi among the mods.

Not suggestive of hatred...more a consideration of opinions. As C.P. Scott said "comment is free but facts are sacred"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 10:19:17
I like Ironsides

He gets a lot of hate on here, but he says what he thinks.

To be honest, some of it offends some people, but some people are offended by facts



That's because, as your name tag suggests, you are also a massive cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 10:52:02
 :suicide:
That's because, as your name tag suggests, you are also a massive cunt.
On that basis you should have the moniker Levi Lapper Not Very Nice If I'm Honest then. As i see it there is a very left wing union style bias on this site and anyone offering a centre, right or even far right view is rounded upon and derided like a defenceless wounded animal. Interesting how those with centre, centre right or right views do not threaten or abuse like the left do in public. When was the last time a mass of Conservative voters tried to smash up or threaten anything in the parks area, say that screamed out as beloning to socialists or socialist voters? The left love to shout down opinion that does not marry to their doctrine. Free speech was frowned up during the Blair regime, just ask that poor old man that was bundled out the Labour conference or the lady burned in the Paddington rail crash who was trashed by the labour govenment or that lady up t' north who was called a bigot by Brown when he thought he was safe to say what he really thought.

This is a forum. If anyone of any political persuasion does not like anyone exercising their own opinions or free speech then they should go elsewhere. Calling someone a cunt hardly makes that person a shining beacon of what this country stands for.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 11:07:00
Cunt.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RedRag on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 11:11:42
I must say I thought it was a requirement to be one to post on here, so it is rather stating the obvious


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 11:20:36
:suicide:On that basis you should have the moniker Levi Lapper Not Very Nice If I'm Honest then. As i see it there is a very left wing union style bias on this site and anyone offering a centre, right or even far right view is rounded upon and derided like a defenceless wounded animal. Interesting how those with centre, centre right or right views do not threaten or abuse like the left do in public. When was the last time a mass of Conservative voters tried to smash up or threaten anything in the parks area, say that screamed out as beloning to socialists or socialist voters? The left love to shout down opinion that does not marry to their doctrine. Free speech was frowned up during the Blair regime, just ask that poor old man that was bundled out the Labour conference or the lady burned in the Paddington rail crash who was trashed by the labour govenment or that lady up t' north who was called a bigot by Brown when he thought he was safe to say what he really thought.

This is a forum. If anyone of any political persuasion does not like anyone exercising their own opinions or free speech then they should go elsewhere. Calling someone a cunt hardly makes that person a shining beacon of what this country stands for.


There isn't a left wing bias on here at all. In fact I'd say those on the left of centre are in the minority. I'd also look at the manner of much of ironsides comments then think of your abuse allegations again.

I have nothing against the bloke and enjoy reading his posts even if I don't agree with them. Throws up debate which is good. Long may it continue.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 13:18:17
It is a forum. I see it differently, that is my opinion, yours is yours.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 14:07:11
:suicide:On that basis you should have the moniker Levi Lapper Not Very Nice If I'm Honest then. As i see it there is a very left wing union style bias on this site and anyone offering a centre, right or even far right view is rounded upon and derided like a defenceless wounded animal. Interesting how those with centre, centre right or right views do not threaten or abuse like the left do in public. When was the last time a mass of Conservative voters tried to smash up or threaten anything in the parks area, say that screamed out as beloning to socialists or socialist voters? The left love to shout down opinion that does not marry to their doctrine. Free speech was frowned up during the Blair regime, just ask that poor old man that was bundled out the Labour conference or the lady burned in the Paddington rail crash who was trashed by the labour govenment or that lady up t' north who was called a bigot by Brown when he thought he was safe to say what he really thought.

This is a forum. If anyone of any political persuasion does not like anyone exercising their own opinions or free speech then they should go elsewhere. Calling someone a cunt hardly makes that person a shining beacon of what this country stands for.

The left get all shouty and protesty.  The right just beat the shit out of each other to keep them in line.  In a country of over 60m people how can there be only two views?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: BruceChatwin on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 14:21:34
A full-scale invasion is the only thing that is going to get rid of them. Or at least troops on the ground anyway and so far the "strategy" of operating through limited proxies (a Kurdish force attacked by the Turks and hamstrung by our unwillingness to upset our "allies", the laughably inept and corrupt Iraqi army, Assad's murderers and various rag-bag equally murderous Shia militias) coupled with bombing has achieved jack-shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6p1nn1CuZs


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Abrahammer on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 15:16:21
Lefties are always a bit shouty so probably seems there is a bias, there's probably a fairly even split of political persuasions on here


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 17:04:41
Left wingers are going to be more inclined to shoutiness (or protest) because they are more inclined to see injustice in the world around them.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red and Proud on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 17:13:29
Left wingers are going to be more inclined to shoutiness (or protest) because they are more inclined to see injustice in the world around them.
What a load of bollocks.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 17:26:19
Interesting how those with centre, centre right or right views do not threaten or abuse like the left do in public.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34952981


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 17:32:17
What a load of bollocks.

Incisive.  Well-reasoned.

I like you.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: pauld on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 17:33:23
Incisive.  Well-reasoned.

I like you.
Good job he wasn't abusive like those nasty lefties though


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ardiles on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 17:37:44
I didn't think that the point I made was particularly contentious, to be honest.  A fair few on the right would probably agree with it.  But there you go.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Saturday, November 28, 2015, 18:18:04
What a load of bollocks.

Shouty and abusive...?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Christy on Sunday, November 29, 2015, 00:11:16
:suicide:On that basis you should have the moniker Levi Lapper Not Very Nice If I'm Honest then. As i see it there is a very left wing union style bias on this site and anyone offering a centre, right or even far right view is rounded upon and derided like a defenceless wounded animal. Interesting how those with centre, centre right or right views do not threaten or abuse like the left do in public. When was the last time a mass of Conservative voters tried to smash up or threaten anything in the parks area, say that screamed out as beloning to socialists or socialist voters? The left love to shout down opinion that does not marry to their doctrine. Free speech was frowned up during the Blair regime, just ask that poor old man that was bundled out the Labour conference or the lady burned in the Paddington rail crash who was trashed by the labour govenment or that lady up t' north who was called a bigot by Brown when he thought he was safe to say what he really thought.

This is a forum. If anyone of any political persuasion does not like anyone exercising their own opinions or free speech then they should go elsewhere. Calling someone a cunt hardly makes that person a shining beacon of what this country stands for.

Oh bless.  I'm truly humbled that you've taken the time to enlighten us so.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Sunday, November 29, 2015, 00:33:07
:suicide:On that basis you should have the moniker Levi Lapper Not Very Nice If I'm Honest then. As i see it there is a very left wing union style bias on this site and anyone offering a centre, right or even far right view is rounded upon and derided like a defenceless wounded animal. Interesting how those with centre, centre right or right views do not threaten or abuse like the left do in public. When was the last time a mass of Conservative voters tried to smash up or threaten anything in the parks area, say that screamed out as beloning to socialists or socialist voters? The left love to shout down opinion that does not marry to their doctrine. Free speech was frowned up during the Blair regime, just ask that poor old man that was bundled out the Labour conference or the lady burned in the Paddington rail crash who was trashed by the labour govenment or that lady up t' north who was called a bigot by Brown when he thought he was safe to say what he really thought.

This is a forum. If anyone of any political persuasion does not like anyone exercising their own opinions or free speech then they should go elsewhere. Calling someone a cunt hardly makes that person a shining beacon of what this country stands for.

People who are shouty and angry act like people who are shouty and angry, whether they love Thatcher or Corbyn or Danny Dyer. People are cunts.

We are psychologically very susceptible to developing a sense of "otherness" when it comes to people we disagree with, i.e. assuming that their views or behaviour are somehow inferior or defective because they're not our own. These things rarely reflect reality. If you're right wing and carry the view that all lefties are mouthy (or vice versa) I'd be very careful to come to that conclusion without first acknowledging the very real effects of confirmation bias.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Sunday, November 29, 2015, 00:34:34
Psychology or Sociology?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Sunday, November 29, 2015, 00:37:49
One can't exist without the other!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Sunday, November 29, 2015, 02:05:17
It is a forum. I see it differently, that is my opinion, yours is yours.
Oh


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, December 11, 2015, 16:38:31
Psychology or Sociology?
Either way, it's still an 'ology' and despite Maureen's encouragement, far from science it remains...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, December 11, 2015, 17:14:03
Someone doesn't know what the ology suffix means


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, December 11, 2015, 18:18:55
Someone doesn't know what the ology suffix means
Yes he does.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Friday, December 11, 2015, 18:29:25
It doesn't mean science, does it you thick cunt?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Friday, December 11, 2015, 18:33:43
It doesn't mean science, does it you thick cunt?
You fucking idiot. That's the point of what I said you thick cunt..


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Friday, December 11, 2015, 23:11:55
Now that I could argue about for a long time..

Who the fuck's Maureen?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Friday, December 11, 2015, 23:30:44
Now that I could argue about for a long time..

Who the fuck's Maureen?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEfKEzX9QLE

maureen lipman


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Friday, December 11, 2015, 23:41:01
Weird, I've studied psychology for nearly a decade and no one's ever brought her up before. I've wasted my life


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: RobertT on Friday, December 11, 2015, 23:55:45
That escalated quickly, all I was asking is which was Ells background given her post :-)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 00:04:10
That escalated quickly, all I was asking is which was Ells background given her post :-)

Apologies if I started something ! I am a psychology person. It's a very diverse subject though. If you work with people like I do, especially people in a forensic environment, the things that sociology covers become increasingly relevant (and interesting) I think :)


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 00:23:07
Weird, I've studied psychology for nearly a decade and no one's ever brought her up before. I've wasted my life
When are you going to get a proper job?


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Talk Talk on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 00:24:32
When are you going to get a proper job?

Ooooooooooh

At least he didn't say that you should be doing the cleaning, washing and ironing Ells...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 00:28:33
When are you going to get a proper job?

When you grow a pair of braincells bigger than your minuscule pair of bollocks.
So not any time soon, sweetheart.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 00:31:10
When you grow a pair of braincells bigger than your minuscule pair of bollocks.
So not any time soon, sweetheart.
So you'll be doing the cleaning, washing and ironing for rest of your life?


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 00:38:44
So you'll be doing the cleaning, washing and ironing for rest of your life?

That's not my job. People who do these jobs are called "cleaners". I am not a cleaner.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 01:05:03
That's not my job. People who do these jobs are called "cleaners". I am not a cleaner.
Brilliant. Once you've got your 'ology' you'll be qualified to be a waitress or something similar then?

A noble 'profession' and I hope you get tipped well...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: suttonred on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 03:11:40
Pretty fucking low. Well done.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Batch on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 09:32:47
Worst...troll...ever. Even SONN put in more effort.

----

Quite like psychology as a subject, I did a year at university as a secondary subject because it was a lot more interesting (and easier) than maths.

The conformity experiments were very interesting , as were the topics around memory. Less so the physiology side - I think I only made 2 or 3 of those lectures - they were at 8:30 - but even then lobotomy was covered which is interesting and slightly horrific.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Arriba on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 09:38:27
People could just ignore him if they don't like his posts.
He probably enjoys the negative responses.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: StfcRusty on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 10:15:49
People could just ignore him if they don't like his posts.
He probably enjoys the negative responses.

He's just lonely and craves her attention.

I would not be surprised if we read about Ironside in the future in an article that ends "before turning the gun on himself"


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: SuperBosnian on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 13:24:18
More like "before turning the gun on the crowd"


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Saturday, December 12, 2015, 21:06:57
Brilliant. Once you've got your 'ology' you'll be qualified to be a waitress or something similar then?

A noble 'profession' and I hope you get tipped well...

You do realise I'm not an 18 year old student with no job, right?

Sorry to ruin your fantasy.

Attention seeking indeed.



Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Sunday, December 13, 2015, 00:19:18
You do realise I'm not an 18 year old student with no job, right?

Sorry to ruin your fantasy.

Attention seeking indeed.

He's a sociopathic, misogynistic fascist on the Côte d'Azur who speaks no French.

That would normally have the local slappeurs queuing at the door. What went wrong?


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Sunday, December 13, 2015, 02:00:54
He's a sociopathic, misogynistic fascist on the Côte d'Azur who speaks no French.

That would normally have the local slappeurs queuing at the door. What went wrong?

You can't be an immigrant if you're British duh!
You've got to be at least a bit brown!


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 14:55:01
He's a sociopathic, misogynistic fascist on the Côte d'Azur who speaks no French.

That would normally have the local slappeurs queuing at the door. What went wrong?
Everything you've stated here is incorrect.

You fucking retards seem to think I believe everything I write on here.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 15:11:02
Everything you've stated here is incorrect.

You fucking retards seem to think I believe everything I write on here.

You're younger than I thought you would be. Good to know you are French CRB checked though.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 15:21:42
Ironside has just got my vote for sports personality of the year


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 16:46:01
You're younger than I thought you would be. Good to know you are French CRB checked though.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/38ec450033744ea7377f5c89230a53f5.jpg)


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 16:46:41
Ironside has just got my vote for sports personality of the year
Save it for Cris Froome.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 16:55:46
Everything you've stated here is incorrect.

You fucking retards seem to think I believe everything I write on here.

Retards? really? You want to abuse the disabled now?  You're such a fascist prick. Or if you aren't, then you are just a prick. It's a lose lose.  :bye:


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 17:01:10
Retards? really? You want to abuse the disabled now?  You're such a fascist prick. Or if you aren't, then you are just a prick. It's a lose lose.  :bye:
You're such a gaylord it's not even worth taking your reply seriously...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 17:15:33
Still not grown out of using offensive terms in a sad attempt to wind people up? Are you 13?


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 17:22:03
I haven't heard gaylord used pejoratively since I was eight. There's a certain nostalgia to that.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Levi lapper on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 17:37:24
haha Gaylord - Ill have to tell my teenage children some ignorant moron has called me a gaylord on the internet! ha ha ha

Retro 70's insults keep them coming!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 17:57:20
This thread is all a bit depressing isn't it


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 18:06:17
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/38ec450033744ea7377f5c89230a53f5.jpg)

OK Steve.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: THE FLASH on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 18:07:46
i like Gaylord..... takes me back to Dick Emery...


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 18:24:37
This thread is all a bit depressing isn't it

When it descends into playground insults being batted backward and forward like a 70's TV game....

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/D-THUXZ1aE4/hqdefault.jpg)

....then yes.

However it is an opportunity for proper debate....so in the original post, approx a year ago, I suggested that climate change should be the most topic important during the May GE, flagging up the Paris Conference, well it's just finished and we're told it's all good.  So that's all right then? Yes/No?


Title: Re:
Post by: Ironside on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 18:35:15
The reaction from some says it all.


Title: Re:
Post by: Ells on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 18:44:05
The reaction from some says it all.

Which is exactly what a 13 year old troll would say.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 19:33:29
I haven't heard gaylord used pejoratively since I was eight. There's a certain nostalgia to that.
This thread is delightfully old school in its terminology, making me feel somewhat nostalgic.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 19:35:02
Still not grown out of using offensive terms in a sad attempt to wind people up? Are you 13?
To be fair I don't agree with anything that Ironside is saying but he seems to be doing a jolly good job in his 'sad attempt to wind people up'.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 20:03:30
Hilarious


Title: Re: Re:
Post by: Ironside on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 20:11:44
Which is exactly what a 13 year old troll would say.
No, that's what you think a thirteen year old troll would say.

Tell me about your father...


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 21:37:43
Everything you've stated here is incorrect.

You fucking retards seem to think I believe everything I write on here.

Well if you're just some trolling onanist, you don't even have morbid freakshow interest any more. Bye.  :bye:


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 21:40:52
To be fair I don't agree with anything that Ironside is saying but he seems to be doing a jolly good job in his 'sad attempt to wind people up'.

Well no, he isn't.

It's a common misconception that responding to a troll is "success" for them and means you've suddenly gotten wound up. Whilst I hate ableist language etc, I was quite happy to get on with my day.

Trolls only achieve real validation when people get legitimately angry. At the end of the day, most people see it for what it is, feel pity, and move on.

No one here (Speaking for myself but I would hope others) is actually going to get wound up by a bigot calling them a gay lord.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ironside on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 21:43:54
Well no, he isn't.

It's a common misconception that responding to a troll is "success" for them and means you've suddenly gotten wound up. Whilst I hate ableist language etc, I was quite happy to get on with my day.

Trolls only achieve real validation when people get legitimately angry. At the end of the day, most people see it for what it is, feel pity, and move on.

No one here (Speaking for myself but I would hope others) is actually going to get wound up by a bigot calling them a gay lord.
Whoosh...


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 21:55:40
No one here (Speaking for myself but I would hope others) is actually going to get wound up by a bigot calling them a gay lord.

They might get wound up by this though....

It's a common misconception that responding to a troll is "success" for them and means you've suddenly gotten wound up. Whilst I hate ableist language etc, I was quite happy to get on with my day.


Title: Re: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 22:05:49
They might get wound up by this though....

It's a common misconception that responding to a troll is "success" for them and means you've suddenly gotten wound up. Whilst I hate ableist language etc, I was quite happy to get on with my day.

Oh good. Now I'm over Ironside, I need someone to take my anger out on. Kids, eh?  ::)

And what's "ableist"? Someone who is a believer in able, or a German compound of ab and leist which google translate tells me means "from paid"? That girl's making less and less sense.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 22:49:31
Past participle of get. Could have phrased it better but I think the meaning was clear.

Ableism is to disability what racism is to race.. That should tell you what you need to know about ableist language. :)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 22:56:15
Past participle of get. Could have phrased it better but I think the meaning was clear.

Ableism is to disability what racism is to race.. That should tell you what you need to know about ableist language. :)

You don't live nearly far enough west for that to be a valid past participle of get. I don't mean to be ableist, but your English is a bit dysfunctional.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: sonicyouth on Tuesday, December 15, 2015, 23:41:47
(http://i.imgur.com/LSOOSVW.gif)


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Ells on Wednesday, December 16, 2015, 00:14:43
Ok, I give in. I used an Americanism. I've had 5 hours sleep in 3 days.
I won't do it again, no need to be such a douchebag!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Red Frog on Wednesday, December 16, 2015, 17:17:38
Ok, I give in. I used an Americanism. I've had 5 hours sleep in 3 days.
I won't do it again, no need to be such a douchebag!

OK, since you're tired and emotional I'll let the missing apostrophe pass.


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: horlock07 on Thursday, December 31, 2015, 13:26:13
I may just be incredibly cynical, just from my reading of it and the fact that he has been a thorn in the side of Corbyn it does all have an air of honey trap about it!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35204398

He has made a bit of a knob of himself though!


Title: Re: Let's Get Political!
Post by: Don Rogers Sock on Thursday, December 31, 2015, 13:29:39
You don't strike me as the cynical type.


Title: