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Author Topic: Let's Get Political!  (Read 1995886 times)
horlock07

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« Reply #2310 on: Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 15:12:14 »

I'd imagine the vast majority think that leaving the Single Market is a price worth paying

Sorry for carving your comment up, but even the Tories in 2015 did not feel that way as their manifesto makes a huge deal about the importance of the Single Market and the party working to strengthen it etc etc.

We find our self in the bizarre position of having a prime minister who has not faced an election even in her own party, let alone the country delivering something that was not explicitly asked in the referendum (and contradicted by many of the key players at the time) and is in direct contrast to whats shown in the very manifesto that got her party elected.

I am not advocating another referendum or any of that bollocks, but how the fucking hell have we as a country ended up in this pseudo-democratic shambles, where the government who got elected on a manifestos they have now ripped up seem to think that they can just deliver what they want to deliver, despite it never having been explicitly put to the elctorate?  Roll Eyes
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #2311 on: Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 15:23:07 »

Apart from the Tory dig again( I'm not one, but it is tedious). Do all your friends have to sing the labour anthem before they are allowed to be your friend Reg Wink

I've got friends and acquaintances from all sides of the political spectrum and none. It is possible to agree to disgree as long as the right to an opposing viewpoint is maintained without intimidation etc.
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #2312 on: Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 15:35:29 »

Sorry for carving your comment up, but even the Tories in 2015 did not feel that way as their manifesto makes a huge deal about the importance of the Single Market and the party working to strengthen it etc etc.

We find our self in the bizarre position of having a prime minister who has not faced an election even in her own party, let alone the country delivering something that was not explicitly asked in the referendum (and contradicted by many of the key players at the time) and is in direct contrast to whats shown in the very manifesto that got her party elected.

I am not advocating another referendum or any of that bollocks, but how the fucking hell have we as a country ended up in this pseudo-democratic shambles, where the government who got elected on a manifestos they have now ripped up seem to think that they can just deliver what they want to deliver, despite it never having been explicitly put to the elctorate?  Roll Eyes

Murdoch and Dacre want hard Brexit, which is good enough for the Tories....as Ken Livingstone once said, if democracy changed anything it'd be abolished.
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Nemo
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« Reply #2313 on: Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 15:41:57 »

Murdoch and Dacre want hard Brexit, which is good enough for the Tories....as Ken Livingstone once said, if democracy changed anything it'd be abolished.

What a strange use of that (widely quoted but clearly bollocks) quote. Surely you'd struggle to find a better example of democracy changing something that Government* weren't keen to do than Brexit? Murdoch and Dacre may have backed it, but the vast majority of politicians and other public bodies did not.

* and to be clear, me

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ghanimah

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« Reply #2314 on: Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 17:25:42 »

I think you are paying a huge disservice to those that voted to leave - I'd imagine the vast majority think that leaving the Single Market is a price worth paying to free the country from the EU controls and to, in their mind, get control of immigration (the central issue, hence being tied so closely to the Single Market).


I would venture the vast majority of leavers and remainers would accept SM membership access given that it removes us from ever closer political union while guaranteeing economic stability and within that arrangement, free movement can be suspended via Article 112 of that agreement.
« Last Edit: Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 17:27:25 by ghanimah » Logged

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horlock07

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« Reply #2315 on: Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 17:45:52 »

I would venture the vast majority of leavers and remainers would accept SM membership access given that it removes us from ever closer political union while guaranteeing economic stability and within that arrangement, free movement can be suspended via Article 112 of that agreement.

Whilst I hate to bring polls back into it.... https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/01/16/public-split-what-kind-brexit-they-think-governmen/
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ghanimah

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« Reply #2316 on: Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 17:58:22 »


I think you've just proved my point, one of questions was about best possible trading links while "following some EU rules and giving up some control of our borders" Neither assertion is true so the poll is meaningless.
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RobertT

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« Reply #2317 on: Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 18:04:52 »

But you are talking about a staging post.  The end goal is clear, full political integration - the model doesn't work unless that is finally achieved at some point.  The cherry picking and influencing from within is a pointless argument over time.  Quite clearly the UK population doesn't want that, so better to get out while the opportunity has presented itself.  I think the UK is wrong, but I know my place in the order of things, which maybe explains why I've leaped over the pond to see what life is like somewhere else (where there is just as much that I am out of kilter with!).
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LucienSanchez

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« Reply #2318 on: Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 18:26:54 »

Personally, I'd sign back up in a heartbeat and allow for full integration, rip up the pound and relegate the concept of countries to sporting teams - so I know I am in a small minority :-)

I'm with you on this
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Christy

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« Reply #2319 on: Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 22:35:15 »

Sorry for carving your comment up, but even the Tories in 2015 did not feel that way as their manifesto makes a huge deal about the importance of the Single Market and the party working to strengthen it etc etc.

We find our self in the bizarre position of having a prime minister who has not faced an election even in her own party, let alone the country delivering something that was not explicitly asked in the referendum (and contradicted by many of the key players at the time) and is in direct contrast to whats shown in the very manifesto that got her party elected.

I am not advocating another referendum or any of that bollocks, but how the fucking hell have we as a country ended up in this pseudo-democratic shambles, where the government who got elected on a manifestos they have now ripped up seem to think that they can just deliver what they want to deliver, despite it never having been explicitly put to the elctorate?  Roll Eyes

Inbloodydeed  Crying
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #2320 on: Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 15:17:04 »

 Good to see the Supreme Court judges remind the Tories that as yet we don't live in a dictatorship, that some of them might desire. A vote in Parliament will make fuck all difference to the Brexit outcome, although some may be able to say told you so, if as some predict te economy goes pear shaped as a consequence
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Abrahammer

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« Reply #2321 on: Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 15:20:06 »

We got there eventually, should have been left to parliament to make the decision in the first place
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ghanimah

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« Reply #2322 on: Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 16:42:18 »

But you are talking about a staging post.  The end goal is clear, full political integration - the model doesn't work unless that is finally achieved at some point.  The cherry picking and influencing from within is a pointless argument over time.  Quite clearly the UK population doesn't want that, so better to get out while the opportunity has presented itself.  I think the UK is wrong, but I know my place in the order of things, which maybe explains why I've leaped over the pond to see what life is like somewhere else (where there is just as much that I am out of kilter with!).

Yes you're dead right, full anti-democratic political integration is the ultimate goal. Many in the establishment have always been dishonest about this goal, especially when we joined. Thus the question then becomes one of democracy - shall we be fully integrated into an institution that is immune from the ballot box or shall we remove ourselves and give ourselves the ability to hire and fire those that make our laws.

Not unsurprisingly my view is the latter.
« Last Edit: Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 17:34:58 by ghanimah » Logged

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ghanimah

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« Reply #2323 on: Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 16:45:50 »

We got there eventually, should have been left to parliament to make the decision in the first place

Parliament has already made the decision, a) to let the people decide via a referendum and b) that Article 50 has to be invoked by the government - conforming to an Act of Parliament (ECA 1972)
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The Saint

« Reply #2324 on: Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 17:08:45 »

She hasn't changed her views has she? She is doing what the majority  of people (WHO VOTED) asked the goverment to do.
[/b]

Only about 70% of the electorate voted, its not a majority of the people at all is it.
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