Let's Get Political!

[RobertT]

Right now there seems to be an effort by Trump to kick off a debate about the voting rules.  He basically got lambasted by his media "supporters" for signing off on a $1.3 trillion spending bill, largely because it included lots of Democrat desires, but also because it increased funding to the largest Miiltary in the world.

This utterly ignores the fact that this is precisely how democracy is supposed to work, it is not supposed to deliver "super" majorities.  It is supposed to be about compromise, precisely because every aspect of life needs to be addressed.  Minority views do deserve to be heard and considered, regardless of which side of the debate.  Bring this back to the UK, Hobo has views, some might be extreme, but we need to know what they are, what drives them (usually fear) and how best to put in place policies that reflect a broad view.  people are then supposed to Trust that their views are considered, they see negotiation and we have to accept we won't always get what we want.

Right now it seems everyone has entrenched into a state where only the things I want are good and everything else is bad, so I don;t trust anyone.

Take the jobs for the working class thing - it's utter bollocks that illegal immigration has any impact, and even if it did, fuck it.  Automation is the bogey man here, but he has been the bogey man since the bloody wheel was invented, or someone sharpened a stone and tied it to a stick.  The whole point is we are a species where we are because we innovate.  We can;t sit around pandering to people telling them that we can protect the job they once had.  We can't blame it on a bogey man, we need to understand how best to help provide people with opportunities to do something, or nothing, with their lives, whatever their choice will be.  Think of all the people working at Toys R Us - the worst thing anyone can do is try and find them all jobs in retail.  Some may, but the writing is on the wall, it is time to move on.  It's not some recent man off a boat from Eritrea's fault, it isn't anyone's fault, it's what happens in our species, we innovate, we change, we push on.  The 1950's are not coming back, there isn't a time machine and we shouldn't want there to be one.

This is where Govt's are failing, they are allowing themselves to pander to fear, for their own fear of losing their job.  get over it, your part may be to only serve the public for 4 or 5 years and move on.  Instead, work out how to provide opportunities.  Outside the fact that physical space restricts population movement into any arbitrary drawing of national borders, the reality is we can fill up any of those nations to the brim and they can still succeed.

The Human Condition of wanting to belong to something and have meaning is the problem I find it harder to solve, and unfortunately the biggest challenge we face.  If there were no borders and everyone just let other people believe what they want to believe, and instead we all just went about innovating and enjoying life, we could all be cunts together.

[Wobbly Bob]

Could be Stormy times ahead for the Trump.

[Peter Venkman]

Could be Stormy times ahead for the Trump.

Pretty sure it was a Stormy time that got him into this mess!

[RobertT]

I doubt Melania married him for his virtuous nature, and I doubt anyone who voted for him didn't already think he'd have plenty of affairs in his past, beyond what was already known.  The only person this could turn out bad for is his lawyer, and he'll be dropped if that becomes a problem.

Longer term though, if his lawyer ever does into trouble down the road, that could create a problem if he started fighting for his liberty under pressure of a significant jail term I guess.

It's a bit like watching the Godafather Trilogy, but with one of the Chuckle Brothers playing the lead role.

[chalkies_shorts]

I don't understand this anti Semitic malarkey. Why? Is it pro Palestinian? Can you be pro Palestinian but not anti Semitic? I'm struggling why being supportive of one thing assumes you hate the other.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey]

I think it’s more to do with capitalism than religion. Historically, Jews weren’t allowed to own property so they put their efforts into finance - banking, money lending etc. That mural that has got Corbyn all hot under the collar depicts a world ruled by the moneyed Jews built upon the efforts of the non Jew.

I think there is also the Masons all seeing eye in there somewhere. So, in essence, Labours hatred of capitalism - at least this version of the Labour Party - has made them somewhat blind to anti semitism. It’s a strange position when a hardish left leaning party is appearing quite fascist.

[pauld]

Sadly there's always been an element of the hard left that has found the anti-capitalist/populist nature of anti-Semitism attractive as per AB's post. Then from the 70s there was the pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel sentiment which bundled together into "anti-Zionism" i.e. a criticism of/opposition to Israel's behaviour, or even existence, as a nation state, largely stemming from their behaviour toward Palestinians but also their position as a world actor, for those on the left who see anti-Americanism as fundamental tenet. Sadly, some of the wilder fringes find it difficult to stop anti-Zionism (criticism/hostility to Israel) from collapsing into anti-Semitism (hostility to Jews as a people). I don't believe for a minute that Corbyn is anti-Semitic but he has shown a complete lack of leadership in dealing with those elements on the left who are. And in doing so, his failure of leadership has allowed what should have been a 5-minute Daily Mail wonder to become a serious problem for Labour.

[Reg Smeeton]

Sadly there's always been an element of the hard left that has found the anti-capitalist/populist nature of anti-Semitism attractive as per AB's post. Then from the 70s there was the pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel sentiment which bundled together into "anti-Zionism" i.e. a criticism of/opposition to Israel's behaviour, or even existence, as a nation state, largely stemming from their behaviour toward Palestinians but also their position as a world actor, for those on the left who see anti-Americanism as fundamental tenet. Sadly, some of the wilder fringes find it difficult to stop anti-Zionism (criticism/hostility to Israel) from collapsing into anti-Semitism (hostility to Jews as a people). I don't believe for a minute that Corbyn is anti-Semitic but he has shown a complete lack of leadership in dealing with those elements on the left who are. And in doing so, his failure of leadership has allowed what should have been a 5-minute Daily Mail wonder to become a serious problem for Labour.

It's the little things like the Israeli's shooting 700 odd Palestinians on the Gaza/Israel border..... which get the leftists hot under the collar.

I've no wish to enter into the politics of the middle east it's too Byzantine....

[pauld]

It's the little things like the Israeli's shooting 700 odd Palestinians on the Gaza/Israel border..... which get the leftists hot under the collar.

And you've just repeated the whole fucking canard. It is quite possible to be critical of the appalling conduct of the Israeli government while not being anti-Semitic or even anti-Zionist.

EDIT: Equally I don't think you have to be a "leftist" to be appalled by the blatant disregard for innocent civilians shown by both sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[jayohaitchenn]

What the Isreali state is doing to the Palenstinians is indefensible. If thinking that makes me anti-semetic, then I'm proudly anti-semetic.

Can you imagine the British government building a wall around Belfast in the 70s and regularly killing thousands of Irish civilians? It's the same thing.

[horlock07]

And you've just repeated the whole fucking canard. It is quite possible to be critical of the appalling conduct of the Israeli government while not being anti-Semitic or even anti-Zionist.

EDIT: Equally I don't think you have to be a "leftist" to be appalled by the blatant disregard for innocent civilians shown by both sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

Plus as its apparently become so black and white I assume its entirely acceptable to claim loudly that anyone who doesn't condone what the Israeli state is doing is obviously Islamophobic....

No its not, but in the simplistic world we seem have fallen into - that would seem to reflect matters.

[pauld]

What the Isreali state is doing to the Palenstinians is indefensible. If thinking that makes me anti-semetic, then I'm proudly anti-semetic.

No it doesn't. Please stop perpetuating this myth. It plays right into the hands of those who want to define this as a "You must support the government of Israel or you are anti-Jewish" debate which is a completely false framing of the argument.

[RobertT]

What the Isreali state is doing to the Palenstinians is indefensible. If thinking that makes me anti-semetic, then I'm proudly anti-semetic.

Can you imagine the British government building a wall around Belfast in the 70s and regularly killing thousands of Irish civilians? It's the same thing.

Maybe not thousands and maybe not a concrete slab on the border itself, but I think the Republican supporters during that time would point you to things like Bloody Sunday and you had the "Peace" walls in Belfast.

Isreal is a State, not a religion.  Practicing Muslims do live there.  It may be one that people can point lots of faults with, but it is not the entire essence of being Jewish.  It is the religion that some on,  what should be, the fringe of the Socialist movement seem to have a problem with.  That is a problem.

[horlock07]

It is the religion that some on,  what should be, the fringe of the Socialist movement seem to have a problem with.  That is a problem.

Is it? Maybe it is, however the present fuss seems much more base than that?

[RobertT]

It should be nobody, but in reality it happens for some reason, so you'd want it to be a fringe thing, but the issue seems to be that it is more than that.  You'd certainly not want an elected MP to be thinking that way.