Let's Get Political!

[pauld]

I never really understood why the conservatives did that - why not just say that they are recruiting 31k new nurses and will aim to retain 19k that would otherwise be lost?

I get that recruiting 50k new nurses sounds way better but surely people would see through those blatant lies? Wouldn't they? 

Exactly, by "doubling down" (to use the Trump phrase) on the lie it just makes the dishonesty more apparent and means even more people see it. Whereas I think most people would be quite happy with "We're recruiting over 30,000 and aiming to keep nearly 20,000 that would have left". But doubling down on a lie is the Bannon/Trump playbook so that's what the Tories are following these days. TBF, it seems to be working for them

[Red Frog]

Does that mean now that Mancock has been retained as Health Secretary, we now have two of them?

 

[pauld]

H L Mencken said this some years back....

  "No-one has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.”

He may well have done, in which case he was just being a snob, and I'm surprised to see you quoting him in this. I don't think that the public are stupid but that the govt think they are. I said some weeks ago that I think everyone has already "priced in" that the Tories lie on a massive scale, and some people decided to vote for them anyway either because they were more concerned about Labour getting in or because they did believe the one central promise to "Get Brexit Done"

[horlock07]

He may well have done, in which case he was just being a snob, and I'm surprised to see you quoting him in this. I don't think that the public are stupid but that the govt think they are. I said some weeks ago that I think everyone has already "priced in" that the Tories lie on a massive scale, and some people decided to vote for them anyway either because they were more concerned about Labour getting in or because they did believe the one central promise to "Get Brexit Done"

Possibly on a more simple level they didn't vote Labour as they had a leader with an approval rating of -40%?

[pauld]

Possibly on a more simple level they didn't vote Labour as they had a leader with an approval rating of -40%?

Yes that was meant to be encompassed by "were more concerned about Labour getting in" (for a variety of reasons). But either way, I don't think the public are stupid. But it's pretty obvious the govt does.

[horlock07]

Exactly, by "doubling down" (to use the Trump phrase) on the lie it just makes the dishonesty more apparent and means even more people see it. Whereas I think most people would be quite happy with "We're recruiting over 30,000 and aiming to keep nearly 20,000 that would have left". But doubling down on a lie is the Bannon/Trump playbook so that's what the Tories are following these days. TBF, it seems to be working for them

Here is what Mancock said, he is getting evermore like Alan Partridge. 

'Every year at the moment, around 27,000 nurses leave the NHS. I want to reduce that number. Even if we didn’t have any new nurses, just by reducing the number who leave, you would end up with more nurses in the NHS. That contributes. That retention of existing nurses contributes to increasing the number of nurses in the NHS and that’s very important.

Also, we’re going to have new nurses and the combination of increasing retention, which means fewer nurses leaving and having more new nurses, including with our bursary today. So if you’re watching and you want to become a nurse and don’t think at the moment you’ve got the financial resources to do it, we are putting in place that extra support, on top of all the existing support.

The combination of reducing the number of nurses leaving and having new nurses coming through – that leads to an increase in the total number of nurses in the NHS, which is what matters from my point of view running the NHS and from a patient’s view for ensuring that there is patient care and that there are enough nurses on the ward.'

As has been pointed out elsewhere, the shock of the election is less to do with the lies that were told but more the fact that a lot of the public seem entirely unfazed by being blatantly lied to and actively seem to quite like it.

Possibly explains why cuckold pornography is so popular?

[moredonboy]

"In an ever-changing, incomprehensible world the masses had reached the point where they would, at the same time, believe everything and nothing, think that everything was possible and nothing was true... The totalitarian mass leaders based their propaganda on the correct psychological assumption that, under such conditions, one could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day, and trust that if the next day they were given irrefutable proof of their falsehood, they would take refuge in cynicism; instead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them, they would protest that they had known all along that the statement was a lie and would admire the leaders for their superior tactical cleverness." Hannah Arendt 2017

[horlock07]

"In an ever-changing, incomprehensible world the masses had reached the point where they would, at the same time, believe everything and nothing, think that everything was possible and nothing was true... The totalitarian mass leaders based their propaganda on the correct psychological assumption that, under such conditions, one could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day, and trust that if the next day they were given irrefutable proof of their falsehood, they would take refuge in cynicism; instead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them, they would protest that they had known all along that the statement was a lie and would admire the leaders for their superior tactical cleverness." Hannah Arendt 2017

I doubt she said it in 2017, she died in the 1970's!

[moredonboy]

thanks for checking - wish I had now
still makes it even more worrying - the population has not wised up for a very long time!

[Ardiles]

My reaction was slightly different.  The big worry is that the blatant lies being told - and believed - is a new phenomenon.  But the quote shows that politicians have always been inclined to do this.

Great quote.

[horlock07]

thanks for checking - wish I had now
still makes it even more worrying - the population has not wised up for a very long time!

Indeed, the one thing that recent events have shown is how little history seems to be known and understood.

[pauld]

My reaction was slightly different.  The big worry is that the blatant lies being told - and believed - is a new phenomenon.  But the quote shows that politicians have always been inclined to do this.

She was specifically talking about *totalitarian* politicians, rather than politicians in general i.e. the Soviet and Nazi regimes of the mid-20th century both of whom deployed the "Big Lie" in their propaganda. Indeed, it's generally accepted as one of the hallmarks of authoritarian regimes, the others being an assault on a free press and independent judiciary. Both are well under way in the US, and we are seeing the beginnings ("Enemies of the People" headline in the Mail, the attacks on the BBC being lined up) of this over here too.

[Pax Romana]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/19/labour-tories-opposition-power

Interesting piece in the Guardian

By interesting, of course, I mean a piece that largely matches my point of view.

[horlock07]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/19/labour-tories-opposition-power

Interesting piece in the Guardian

By interesting, of course, I mean a piece that largely matches my point of view.

It was.... Likewise this is also of interest if one has an interest in ham psychology.

https://theconversation.com/why-people-vote-for-politicians-they-know-are-liars-128953

[pauld]

It was.... Likewise this is also of interest if one has an interest in ham psychology.

https://theconversation.com/why-people-vote-for-politicians-they-know-are-liars-128953

Gammon psychology surely?