Pages: 1 ... 32 33 34 [35] 36 37 38 ... 880   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Let's Get Political!  (Read 1995827 times)
herthab
TEF Travel

Offline Offline

Posts: 12020





Ignore
« Reply #510 on: Friday, April 10, 2015, 18:07:11 »

So, just so I've got this right, Labour are to blame for the financial crisis, which was part of a Global financial crisis? I'm not a Labour voter and don't plan on voting for them time, but to blame a financial crisis that affected many countries worldwide on a single national political party is bizarre.
Logged

It's All Good..............
Ironside
Wir müssen die Liberalen ausrotten

Offline Offline

Posts: 1475




Ignore
« Reply #511 on: Friday, April 10, 2015, 18:32:15 »

So, just so I've got this right, Labour are to blame for the financial crisis, which was part of a Global financial crisis? I'm not a Labour voter and don't plan on voting for them time, but to blame a financial crisis that affected many countries worldwide on a single national political party is bizarre.
I haven't said Labour were to blame for the global banking crisis though.

Labour are to blame for overspending and under saving. Simple terms for simple people...
Logged

Genius, Gentleman Explorer, French Cabaret Chantoose  and Small Bets Placed and someone who knows who they are changed my signature but its only know that I can be arsed to change it....and I mean all the spelling mistakes.

Was it me? It can't have been an interesting enough event for me to remember - fB.
herthab
TEF Travel

Offline Offline

Posts: 12020





Ignore
« Reply #512 on: Friday, April 10, 2015, 19:04:32 »

I haven't said Labour were to blame for the global banking crisis though.

Labour are to blame for overspending and under saving. Simple terms for simple people...
Ah right, thanks for simplifying it for me. Just out of interest, when was the UK last in a no debt situation? Most countries run with debt, including Germany, Japan, The US, Canada.... The list goes on and on. It's not that important really, is it? I mean it only really affects us, the great unwashed, when governments use it as a reason for cutting essential services, victimising the most vulnerable and selling off anything that's still publically owned. At the same time protecting big business and turning a blind eye to high level tax avoidance.
I'm sure it's much more complicated than that, someone of my limited intelligence couldn't possibly understand it fully.
Logged

It's All Good..............
jonny72

Offline Offline

Posts: 5554





Ignore
« Reply #513 on: Friday, April 10, 2015, 19:19:43 »

Anyone who thinks the Tories will look out for the ordinary working people in this country is deluded.

How will Labour look out for the ordinary working people?

Under the current Tory government, someone earning £20k a year pays about £800 a year less in taxes now than 5 years ago and unemployment is currently down around 0.6m from 5 years ago. i'd have thought more take home pay and more jobs are the best thing any government could do.

I mean it only really affects us, the great unwashed, when governments use it as a reason for cutting essential services, victimising the most vulnerable and selling off anything that's still publically owned. At the same time protecting big business and turning a blind eye to high level tax avoidance.
I'm sure it's much more complicated than that, someone of my limited intelligence couldn't possibly understand it fully.

A lot of that applies to Labour as much as the Tories. They continued to privatise (NHS privatisation increased dramatically under them for example), protected big business (pressurising the FSA to minimise banking regulations for example) and did absolutely nothing about tax avoidance.

To be honest I don't think there is really much between the two parties on a lot of this stuff. Most of it is just how people have somewhat outdated views of the two parties and the rest of it is just spin from the parties or their media supporters.
« Last Edit: Friday, April 10, 2015, 19:22:15 by jonny72 » Logged
herthab
TEF Travel

Offline Offline

Posts: 12020





Ignore
« Reply #514 on: Friday, April 10, 2015, 19:26:37 »

A lot of that applies to Labour as much as the Tories. They continued to privatise (NHS privatisation increased dramatically under them for example), protected big business (pressurising the FSA to minimise banking regulations for example) and did absolutely nothing about tax avoidance.

To be honest I don't think there is really much between the two parties on a lot of this stuff. Most of it is just how people have somewhat outdated views of the two parties and the rest of it is just spin from the parties or their media supporters.
Absolutely. I've got no bias toward any of the main parties, I distrust them all.
Logged

It's All Good..............
Arnold Corns

« Reply #515 on: Friday, April 10, 2015, 19:32:03 »

How will Labour look out for the ordinary working people?

Under the current Tory government, someone earning £20k a year pays about £800 a year less in taxes now than 5 years ago and unemployment is currently down around 0.6m from 5 years ago. i'd have thought more take home pay and more jobs are the best thing any government could do.

A lot of that applies to Labour as much as the Tories. They continued to privatise (NHS privatisation increased dramatically under them for example), protected big business (pressurising the FSA to minimise banking regulations for example) and did absolutely nothing about tax avoidance.

To be honest I don't think there is really much between the two parties on a lot of this stuff. Most of it is just how people have somewhat outdated views of the two parties and the rest of it is just spin from the parties or their media supporters.
You are correct, the Labour Party is too far to the Right for my liking at the moment but they are more likely to do more for the average working person than the Tories.
People may pay a little less in tax on their pay due to the thresholds being raised but that doesn't compensate for the majority having no pay rises and also the hike in VAT by this Government.
As for unemployment, the figures are grossly misrepresented. The amount of people in zero hours contracts make the figures seem better than the reality.
Logged
Ironside
Wir müssen die Liberalen ausrotten

Offline Offline

Posts: 1475




Ignore
« Reply #516 on: Friday, April 10, 2015, 20:18:34 »

Ah right, thanks for simplifying it for me. Just out of interest, when was the UK last in a no debt situation? Most countries run with debt, including Germany, Japan, The US, Canada.... The list goes on and on. It's not that important really, is it? I mean it only really affects us, the great unwashed, when governments use it as a reason for cutting essential services, victimising the most vulnerable and selling off anything that's still publically owned. At the same time protecting big business and turning a blind eye to high level tax avoidance.
I'm sure it's much more complicated than that, someone of my limited intelligence couldn't possibly understand it fully.

You seem to be confused between the trade deficit and the national debt.

The trade deficit can be closed by exporting more and importing less. (this is simplistic but clearly simplistic works).

The National debt, is a whole different kettle of fish. It needs sorting out sooner rather than later. We can't afford to increase it. We must start decreasing it. The sooner we pay less in interest on debts, the sooner we can pay more to our essential services.
Logged

Genius, Gentleman Explorer, French Cabaret Chantoose  and Small Bets Placed and someone who knows who they are changed my signature but its only know that I can be arsed to change it....and I mean all the spelling mistakes.

Was it me? It can't have been an interesting enough event for me to remember - fB.
Ironside
Wir müssen die Liberalen ausrotten

Offline Offline

Posts: 1475




Ignore
« Reply #517 on: Friday, April 10, 2015, 20:23:37 »

How will Labour look out for the ordinary working people?

Under the current Tory government, someone earning £20k a year pays about £800 a year less in taxes now than 5 years ago and unemployment is currently down around 0.6m from 5 years ago. i'd have thought more take home pay and more jobs are the best thing any government could do.

A lot of that applies to Labour as much as the Tories. They continued to privatise (NHS privatisation increased dramatically under them for example), protected big business (pressurising the FSA to minimise banking regulations for example) and did absolutely nothing about tax avoidance.

To be honest I don't think there is really much between the two parties on a lot of this stuff. Most of it is just how people have somewhat outdated views of the two parties and the rest of it is just spin from the parties or their media supporters.
I thought it had been established that Labour privatised 4% of the NHS and the Tories only increased that to 6%? Labour - talking shite since inception...
Logged

Genius, Gentleman Explorer, French Cabaret Chantoose  and Small Bets Placed and someone who knows who they are changed my signature but its only know that I can be arsed to change it....and I mean all the spelling mistakes.

Was it me? It can't have been an interesting enough event for me to remember - fB.
herthab
TEF Travel

Offline Offline

Posts: 12020





Ignore
« Reply #518 on: Friday, April 10, 2015, 22:14:43 »

You seem to be confused between the trade deficit and the national debt.

The trade deficit can be closed by exporting more and importing less. (this is simplistic but clearly simplistic works).

The National debt, is a whole different kettle of fish. It needs sorting out sooner rather than later. We can't afford to increase it. We must start decreasing it. The sooner we pay less in interest on debts, the sooner we can pay more to our essential services.
Not confusing anything. The countries I mentioned all have national debt, as do we. In fact our country has never not been in debt, going back as far as the Napoleonic Wars and beyond. I'd agree that it would make sense to reduce it, but it's the how I have a problem with. Billions of pounds in unpaid corporation tax, that successive governments seem to turn a blind eye to, would certainly help.
Logged

It's All Good..............
Ironside
Wir müssen die Liberalen ausrotten

Offline Offline

Posts: 1475




Ignore
« Reply #519 on: Saturday, April 11, 2015, 05:40:01 »

Not confusing anything. The countries I mentioned all have national debt, as do we. In fact our country has never not been in debt, going back as far as the Napoleonic Wars and beyond. I'd agree that it would make sense to reduce it, but it's the how I have a problem with. Billions of pounds in unpaid corporation tax, that successive governments seem to turn a blind eye to, would certainly help.
I don't disagree with any of that, especially the bit about corporation tax.
Logged

Genius, Gentleman Explorer, French Cabaret Chantoose  and Small Bets Placed and someone who knows who they are changed my signature but its only know that I can be arsed to change it....and I mean all the spelling mistakes.

Was it me? It can't have been an interesting enough event for me to remember - fB.
Bathtime

Offline Offline

Posts: 648





Ignore
« Reply #520 on: Saturday, April 11, 2015, 07:38:04 »

Like the political debate and there`s a Tory on board - whatever next......!!
Logged

Bathtime
Sippo
Living in the 80s

Offline Offline

Posts: 15582


I ain't gettin on no plane fool




Ignore
« Reply #521 on: Thursday, April 16, 2015, 09:16:45 »

Logged

If my calculations are correct, when this baby hits 88 miles per hour, you're gonna see some serious shit...
dalumpimunki

Offline Offline

Posts: 1075





Ignore
« Reply #522 on: Thursday, April 16, 2015, 17:08:25 »

I love the simplistic "Labour run up debt and the Tories sort out the mess" argument that Cameron seems to still be peddling without anyone in the media even bothering to challenge it, and the uninformed or stupid (pick whichever label you think you deserve) that swallow it whole and regurgitate it in every political debate.

My favourite website is this one:

http://www.debtbombshell.com/britains-budget-deficit.htm

Which shows a graph making it pretty bloody clear that budget deficits under the Tories and Labour have been much of a muchness, fluctuating with the worldwide economic cycle of boom / recession rather than any tendencies towards financial prudence or ineptitude whoever it is that sits in number 11 might display. But then ignores the data and makes the argument that the main problem was Gordon Brown waving his credit card around.

This one shows pretty much the same thing in a bit more detail:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/oct/18/deficit-debt-government-borrowing-data

That's my entire adult life on that chart, and in that whole time there's been a balanced, or surplus budget 6 times, 4 of which have been with Gordon Brown as Chancellor.

Oh and don't be fooled by the reassuringly low looking deficits in the late 70's and 80's into thinking "oh but Thatcher at least didn't overspend too much". Bear in mind that table isn't showing deficit as a proportion of GDP but in actual £Billions.
Quarterly GDP in 1979 was only £45-50m. By 1993 (the biggest year of deficit under the Tories) it had grown to about £145m, and by 2005 (the biggest deficit year under Labour until the shit hit the fan in 2009) it was between £310m and £325m a quarter. As a proportion of GDP Tory deficits are MASSIVELY larger than Labours.

It all only goes really tits up when the crash hits in 2009 and tax revenues plummet whilst benefits costs rise, and the Tories "triumph" in reducing the deficit there is largely down to the weak, gradual but inevitable economic recovery.

Government debt ( and consumer debt for that matter) I'm afraid is not the product of wanton overspending, fiscal incompetence, or over generosity, it's a necessary function of market economics.

Globally a free market economy will always produce more goods and services than the world's population can afford to buy. After all if all firms paid us the value of the goods and services we provided, they wouldn't make a profit would they.

They've got to sell that shit somehow, and out of the kindness of their hearts they're prepared to lend us, and the state, the money to buy it all. Eventually that debt mountain gets so high everyone loses confidence it can ever be repaid, they all shit themselves, there's a run on banks and it either all collapses like in the 1920's or the more stable states wade in and prop it all up, based on even more fecking debt.

It can't go on like that forever of course but for the time being everyone just seems to be whistling and looking the other way when one of the props creaks, or are pretending they have a magic way to "fix capitalism".
 
Logged

..never go back.
horlock07

Offline Offline

Posts: 18726


Lives in Northern Bastard Outpost




Ignore
« Reply #523 on: Thursday, April 16, 2015, 19:29:34 »


That's my entire adult life on that chart, and in that whole time there's been a balanced, or surplus budget 6 times, 4 of which have been with Gordon Brown as Chancellor.
 

Those 4 times being when the international economy was booming...all that graph illustrates is that  our economy is very dependent upon the international situation.
 
I am somewhat surprised by the scale of deficit that was running 2002-2008 when one considers that was a booming period!

The graph actually illustrates how much the economy is dependent on matters way beyond the governments control. You complain about the Tory pushing the "Labour run up debt and the Tories sort out the mess", I am inclined to agree however is it any different to the argument at the last election that was "Labour was responsible for all these booming years and then the market collapsed, but that was nothing to do with us it was an international economy issue - they all want their bloody cake and eat it!
Logged
Abrahammer

Offline Offline

Posts: 4823


A legitimate dude sighting




Ignore
« Reply #524 on: Thursday, April 16, 2015, 20:20:28 »

Sturgeon is bloody impressive again tonight, think she is a class act as a party leader

The Welsh bird mesmorises me every time she opens her mouth
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 32 33 34 [35] 36 37 38 ... 880   Go Up
Print
Jump to: