Thetownend.com

If, big if, we end up with Hart, to me that's 2 out of 3 managerial appointments that are absolute shockers with Malpas.
Authorising the release/sale of several vital players.
Not acting quick enough to stop our slide this season.
Not enough investment in light of the players the board have allowed to move on.
5 year plan can be laughed off the table.

We owe him some (alot to be fair) gratitude granted for getting us on an even keel, but I'm starting to think the bloke doesn't have a clue when it comes to football. Great businessman, check. Useless tosspot as football club authority figure... maybe?

Discuss.

I feel more uneasy about the idea of Hart coming in than Wilson remaining in charge. I fear change.

Have to give him a chance... If he comes in.

kept palace up last season

Appointed by Palace on the 2nd March last year. A year ago exactly (because let's face it he's already been appointed, he's just not been officially announced yet)

I think its best to judge whether Hart was a decent appointment after he's at least had a game in charge!!

I'll be unhappy with anyone but Andy King.

Does anyone know what type of football he plays. I don't really mind as long as we start picking up points but wondering what type of formation he plays etc?

Come on now Dave...you know that's the TEF way ::)

I was reminded of something I'd just read on the Adver site when reading this thread...


Wilson's gone, Hart seems about as popular as Hitler and now Fitton is the new Wilson.

Hart isn't an exciting apointment, but if it works, i'll be fine with it. I do agree with the generic comments regarding Fitton's decisions and actions regarding the footballing side of things though. I'm not entirely sure he knows what he is doing other than in the off-field commercial stuff.

i bet danny is sat at home smoking a big fat cigar with a great big cheesy smile, no more worries :pint:

What change do you fear ? For me things have to change for us to have a chance to get out of the shit we are in.

In all walks of life I'm not comfortable with dramatic shifts... It makes me feel uneasy.

That's just me.

I just sang that like a line of that fucking unbearably twee dating advert. I'm worried about my brain.

"Fitton is following the Goldilocks school of managerial appointments. Malpas was too cold, Wilson too hot, will Hart be our bowl of porridge? It's too early to tell just yet.

Of course a sensible person would have just mixed the too hot and too cold porridge together, instead of risking the third, potentially poisonous, bowl.

The traditional third time lucky approach is rarely the correct one. Why not take the mattresses off the beds and use them with the chairs to make some sort of fort? Much more fun.

The board need to stop relying on fairy tales and help Hart build our squad out of bricks."

How do you think that will go down with the intelligentsia on TIST? fB?

They'll be confused and angry. as usual.

"В межсезонье «Трактор» покидает главный тренер Г. Цыгуров, а ему на смену приходит воспитанни
к команды, бывший игрок НХЛ и ряда российских клубов А. Назаров. Старт сезона-2007/20
08 для «Трактора» начинается с поражения от питерского СКА. Но два дня спустя команда демонстрир
ует свою неплохую форму (набранную в межсезонье — тому пример второе место на мемориале Ромазана) и обыгрывает «Химик» из Мытищ."

Certainly confused if this one is anything to go by! Can't tell if he's angry as well, though

Wiltshire to Newcastle's quite a dramatic shift  :)

All Greek to me  (I think)

I think DMR's gripe is not just the appointment of Hart but Fitton's knowledge of football-and I tend to think also he is clueless-too hands on for my liking.

I like this post. I don't know what the fuck it means but I like it. A lot.

 8)

...and I'm still not fully comfortable with it!

It's Russian.

I reckon our approach to buying / selling players is spot on. Pay money for young players with the aim of selling them on for a profit and don't pay anything for older players. If a decent offer comes in for a player then take it. We have to make money from the transfer market and this is the way to do it.

All the complaints regarding our transfer market activity boil down to one thing - Greer being sold. We've been through this a million times and personally I still don't see what the problem was. We've fucked ourselves over plenty of times in the past giving long contracts to highly paid senior players who then turn to shit or get injured and can't play. Fitton doesn't want to take that risk and it's spot on in my book.

Agree about Fitton looking out of his depth with the managers though. Malpas was a mistake, not replacing him quick enough was a mistake, not sacking Wilson sooner was a mistake. It was obvious come the end of 2010 that Wilson wasn't achieving the right results and had little chance of turning it round and he should have gone then, if he had I don't think we'd be in the mess we're in.

On the flipside, appointing Wilson was a good move and I'd say the same about Hart (short term to get us out of the shit). Still not good enough overall though and it will be interesting to see who gets the job permanently in the summer.

I still don't believe the shit season id about Greer/Paynter.

I think we'd have had a crap season anyway with or without them, maybe mid-table if they stayed.

... and a load of bollocks.

Par for the course for thisis then. Nice to see it translates globally (the talking a load of bollocks thing)

Actually out here bollocks are colloquially referred to as eggs ... it's enough to put you off your 3 minute boiled wotsit and soldiers.

I don't think missing paynter has had that big an effect, but you have to say losing greer has played a big part in how we've been. Look how many clean sheets we've kept

Which is (like it or not) based on the last 10 years our natural level

Yeah.

But still crap compared with this seasons expectations

 If Hart keeps us up, he wont be binned.

I cant believe some people think we haven't missed Paynter!

I've not read the thread beyond this post - but I don't need to, as this is exactly right.

No one in our squad holds the ball up like Billy did.

We have massively.

Austin scored so many because he had Paynter up front with him.

That is true. But untill we sold austin goals hadn't been the problem

He scored nearly as many without him, and he was out with a knackered shoulder too.

We miss Paynter though. That's true.

Who under him won a whole 3 games in course of his 3 months in charge. Over his entire career as a manager his win percentage has never once been over 35%. He's never once turned in the sort of performance we need to save us this season. We need over 1.6 points a game from our remaining fixtures to get to the magic 52 points. He's never averaged more than about 1.3.

I'm spectacularly underwhelmed....

Mind you if it's only until the end of the season I can't see the harm. How could things get worse?

I was more than happy ignorant of all that thanks

Paynter resurected his career off the back of Charlie Austin.

A lot of Paynters goals were penalties.

Thats not to say Paynter wasnt a good player for us. But it does show you usually need 2 quality strikers if both are to shine.

I think all of this is spot on. Basically every change the club has made in the last 12 months has been a step backwards on the playing side, including swapping Danny Wilson for Paul Hart. Raised a lot of cash (and no Im not saying the board are trousering it because I know what the wages are like now).

I could not believe that Benyon was our only piece of business on deadline day. There were bargains to be had.

It was difficult to defend Danny Wilson towards the end of this run. But we all know that very few managers with a better record than him will want the job. Inspite of the terrible results you never saw the fans really turn against him in the ground, it was mainly just sounding off on the internet. Compare that to Malpas. The Malpas Out chants started after about a month, and they were comming from thousands of fans, sometimes just 30 minutes into games.

Last season we had 12 months of looking like one of the best run clubs in the Football League and now weve had 12 months of looking like one of the worst run clubs in the Football League.

Fuck me Spencer. At least have the decency to wait until we've kicked a ball in anger with him in charge before you consign Hart to the scrap heap. Jesus fucking wept - give the bloke a chance ::)

Can I also point out that we have Mr Hart to thank for introducing a certain David Prutton to first team professional football...........

He should have to apologise for that.

i dont buy into the points being made about prospective managers not being interested in coming here.
i think there would have been plenty of applications from candidates with decent track records.
doesn't matter now though as the decision has been made.

Yes, but was it worth goign through a big application process over the course of a few days, or was it more important to get somebody in within 24 huors to prepare for the game against Walsall?

I can see why the latter route was taken.

Fitton should have been on the phone to Johnson instead of Hart.

Johnson would have come here, he's probably now on his way to Northampton.

I can only assume this Hart appointment is short term, I can't think this is for the long term. I hope not anyway.

THIS FORUM CERTAINLY LIVES UP TO THE 80% BOLLOCKS TAG.

All this winging about alleged mistakes by Fitton. As far as I am concerned I'm dead happy even if we get relegated. At least we will be in business next season. At least we have a shot at going for promotion next season from this league or league two. We haven't got a bunch of twats running the club who are only interested in lining their own pockets. Don't get me wrong I want us to suceed, but first & foremost I want a club to support.

:clap: well said

I think we all hoped for Gary Johnson but has he ever had any experience of coming into a club when they are on the fringes of relegation at this stage of the season? I think the answer is no and with Hart having done that twice it does look like the board have made a sensible appointment.

i'd say the above is bollocks,and infact a bit sad.
the i'm just happy to have a club stuff is in the past.yes it was a shit time,and we should be(and are)grateful to the board for rescuing the club.
but,we are not in the past anymore so we should look at what is happening now.

They are though, aren't they?

Well it still carries some weight arriba but you're right we can't spend the next decade saying "At least we've still got a club" because if the results aren't there on the pitch to match the excellent work done off it, we pretty soon won't. Or at least certainly not one that the hard work done off the pitch deserves.

One thing I do find encouraging from this week's events is that they've clearly learnt from the way Malpas going/Wilson's appointment was handled. No drawn-out saga this time, manager search all done up front (presumably they've been looking at candidates for weeks, no matter what the official line) and then when they're ready, one out and the replacement in. Everyone makes mistakes, the sign of a good outfit is whether you can learn from them. This lot clearly do.

who is they? if you mean the board then yes.
i was on about some fans.

also,agree pauld with your post.
lets be honest though,they didn't have time to draw it out.
the league position has forced in through quickly.

No we didn't.
I don't think I have met a Peterborough fan who wasn't pleased to see the back of him, and that was before they knew who his replacement was.

I don't think it's a coincidence that their results have improved since he left.

Speak for yourself.

I remain a Tisdale fanboy, but our only hope of getting him here is to stay in this division and then offer to back him with money and time. Appointing Hart to the end of the season is a completely sensible approach to step one, although he might have to win more than the three games he managed with Palace in the same time frame last season.

Totally agree

The time for back slapping has gone, and whilst I appreciate what has been done, I now go to watch the football which at times has been piss poor.

Fitton has made mistakes without doubt, I just hope he has not left his rectification too late to save us.

All this "I dont care what league we are in" is, quite frankly, Bollocks

where the fuck has this talk of fans wanting Johnson here come from?

Cos I certainly don't want him here.

Also I wish people would read or listen to news reports. Hart is here till the end of the season and then it'll be reviewed. He's not signed a 3 year deal he's here for 13 games.

As for Fitton and Co not knowing what they are doing, as PaulD has rightly said. they've learnt from the lengthy break between appointments and got it sorted asap. they know we're in the shit and have acted quickly to sort it. The Hart apppointment didn't get my blood flowing at first but with McParland in as a number two it's added a bit more spice to it and given me more belief we will not be relegated.

That's a very good point about McParland. I'd hate to be the player coming off the pitch having not put in a shift and having to justify myself to that scary fucker!

Can someone explain to me why McParland is a mentalist?

 :hmmm:In what way is waiting 3 months acting quickly, Wilson should have gone before Christmas.

Why should he?

our last game before xmas we were 5 points off the playoffs after beating Sheffield W 2.1

Fitton has sorted our money problems so he is top class as far as I am concerned and he seems fairly straight forward guy. I dont think he does have too much football knowledge but at this level its all a bit of a gamble. He has seemingly taken on Paul Hart because of his recent track record of getting clubs out of the shit....its a start in the right direction...RED ARMY

He looks a bit scary, like that copper off Trial and Retribution

Gone to Northampton apparently. Surprised by that, thought he had more ambition

You talking cobblers then Paul ::)

:) Not for the first time, either

I would have welcomed him here, I too am shocked he would go there.

He was a shoein for the job.

He was probably the sole applicant.

Probably, from the fans, who wanted Johnson here?

I wanted Johnson here. My personal view is still we should have got rid of Wilson after the defeat at home to Yeovil in Mid January and got Gary Johnson in on the following Monday...

...but...its happened there.

Lets not be naive and think Hart is only here for 13 games. He will either relegated us (technically, he will, not that its fault sorta thing) or keep us and land a longer contract (which you could argue he'd deserve anyway)

Its no coincidence that the atmosphere at games and the passion shown by our fans initially rose when Fitton took over, then nosedived.

Happy to be here is wearing a bit thin with me as well. The reaction of our fans to the end of last season was an absolute dissapointment, with the exception of the 2 Play off semi finals.

Just calling it as I see it.

The club did not react enough to Charlie Austins transfer (a transfer that seems to have completely ruined the morale in our squad of a player we were completely reliant on) and we are going to end up throwing the good out with the bad.

What were you expecting from them?

After the Benyon transfer was completed at 10pm they said there was no more business. There should have been more irons in the fire. We needed a complete new striker force, 2 permanent, 1 loan. Deadline day is when you can get bargains, its not something to be affraid of. Fair play to Sturrock, he would have been on the phones until 5 minutes before the end.

The club had the money to do it, it looked lazy to me.

?????

10PM... That deadline was what 12 PM???

How many players live within distance of Swindon to thrash out a deal, get the player there, do a medical and sign the player all within 2 hours.

Yeah. I'm sure they are really lazy Spence

Harry Redknapp did a deal for Rafael Van Der Vaart in under an hour and he was in Madrid. Billy Paynter signed for us so late I had given up and gone to bed. If you get the paperwork done then I think most deals can still effectively go through after the deadline.

Yes, it was lazy, there should have been more targets. It wasnt the reaction of a club that were seriously concerened at the prospect of relegation. January deadline day is a good day to buy for League 1 clubs.

I think the deadline was actually 11pm. But the point is, there should have been more irons in the fire and 1 striker clearly was not enough. 1 striker who unsuprisingly got injured almost immediately.

Raise your eyebrows all you want, but I said it at the time that I was really dissapointed. The squad needed replenishing after we lost our most important player and DW and the board didnt even come close and thats why the arse has dropped out of the season.

I think you are expecting the board to bend the space-time continuum.

And how do you know how many irons they had in the fire? I don't think you are being all that reasonable Spence.

It all leaks out who was interested in who, if a real bid goes in. Usually within 24 hours. Deadline days are the time for suprise bids, its take it or leave it.

Mason was our only other target, and Benyon was a second choice, they were never planning to get both. Thats an extremely poor effort. Very complacent.

Remember, weve only been relegated to the basement league twice in our history. Weve managed to avoid it when the club had not a penny to its name. When we were competing with much better supported clubs than ourselves, Norwich, Leeds and Millwall last season I gave the board all the credit they deserved, and reminded other fans of it as often as I could. Now we are THE worst team in League 1 by a fair distance and they are accountable to their decisions.

fuck it

Isn't that somewhere in Thailand?

Phuket. My Mrs. was born and grew up there.

It's actually pronounced "poo-ket". Or in Thai: "Go(*t) poo-get", which means Phuket Island.
* (silent t)

But many people call it fuckit, it's much more fun that way.

I thought that the torquay manager said that we bid for benyon and billy kee!!

Well this season has just been one monumental cock up.

I just hope the lessons have been learned mainly:

Selling key players(Greer,Morrison, Paynter, Austin) and not adequately replacing them
Persevering with Wilson when it was obvious by Christmas it was not working

It is such a shame as we have the crowds most league one clubs can only dream off. Will be renewing my season ticket but i think we will be down to 2000 next season- with gates of 4000.

Bitterly disappointed.

I completely agree with this. 

Nick Watkin's rallying cry about renewing season tickets isn't going to make much difference I'm afraid.  Unforunately unless I see a dramatic improvement in the next 3 weeks, I won't be renewing.  I'm not enjoying watching a compete shambles on the pitch anymore and for me there's no point going when I feel like that.

According to quotes in the Torquay local rag, yes we did bid for Billy Kee.

The club will lose floating fans to the pubs and armchairs again. Most people didn't start supporting Swindon for the division or the glory, they'll support Town through thick and thin and those people will renew regardless of division.

They wont.

This could be a first for the TEF....someone agrees with Bart

6000 (give or take) will remain loyal. They did under the last regime and the King/Onuora season.

there will be more than 2000 season ticket holders, even if we lost every game left of the season.apart from that bart has it right

10,400 today was brilliant...we was't getting that when oozing style in the good ol days.

Crowds held up well last time we were in L2 mainly due to the fact that we won our first 6 games under Wise and never looked back when Luggy took over.

My concern is that we will struggle next season even in league 2, quite probably even facing another relegation fight.

That would see attendances drop below 4000.

We'll cross that bridge if/when we get there.

I'm still convinced that that isn't going to happen

I know things are pretty bad right now. But if we do go down I really don't see how we'll be at the wrong end of L2.

You've seen the league table right? And the form table?

nor did poxford luton etc

The biggest difference between us and those examples is that we're very stable off the pitch.

at the moment we are,were you privy to there accounts on relegation, all i am saying is someone has to drop dont matter how big you are look at leeds etc

I can see the similarties between the state of those clubs and ours.

I stand corrected.

Fair point but comparing us to Luton and the scum doesn't make a lot of sense to me - Luton wre crippled by debts and the scum...well, they're the scum

suppose at least they had an excuse.
we aint....

We're just pure shit but at least we can take the moral high ground by knowing we're a better class of turds

I think the 25 point deduction may also have played some part in Luton's case

Me neither. In fact I can see plenty of changes in the summer if it happens and a fresh and positive atmosphere around the place just like we had in the summer of 2006. Oh and a couple of big derby games to look forward to.

There's plenty of Scummers, who've noticed that L2 next season mighty be quite a tasty league, and aren't too despondent about being in it.

Think of the Paul's I'd rather have Trollope than Hart at the helm.

Hart is a firefighter. We need someone with a bit of creativity.

The board effectively only gave Hart 1 game to keep us up. Behind the game again.

If when we go down hart will still get the job, if he wants it, as fitton and hart have said he is a builder someone who wants to make his own team, and has agood eye for young talent, as most builders do :girlgiggle:

If we go down, we'll lose some decent players. Dougie being one of them.

I can't see a feel good factor at all. It would be better if we were to stay up, get rid of the useless players but add decent players to the decent players we've already got. A bit like two years ago.

Going down would be a massive, massive step back.

Yep losing Dougie is my biggest concern.

why?
i couldn't give a shit if they all leave.
our best player has never scored a fucking goal from centre mid.shows how shit swindon town are.

His job isn't to score goals. He gets through a hell of a lot of work in games. He's been crucial to us.

agree he's been crucial,which highlights how shit we are.a centre mid who cannot score for shit is our best player.
not 1 fucking goal.and he earns top dollar too.

Are you for real arriba? He's the type of player this club has needed for years.

Just goes to show that football is a team game.

He still does his job. But you cant expect him to turn into Steven Gerrard just because our strikers post Austin have been nowhere near up to it?

Bringing the thread back to 'Fitton & Co', I think the relationship between the fans and the board is likely to go through a bit of a change if we go down.  Everyone, I think, pretty much accepts that the current board pulled the club out of the mire in 2007...so much so that fans have cut the board a lot more slack than is normal when decisions have been poor (the Malpas appointment being a good example).  And rightly so.

What worries me, though, is that a lot of the love could be lost if relegation happens...because most of us will see it as having been completely avoidable.  Yes, the board got the back office running efficiently again - but that's not what the fans come along to see on a Saturday.  If we go down, you will not be able to escape the uncomfortable truth that after 3½ years of Fitton & Co at the helm, we will be playing our football at a lower level than when they took over.

If we do go down, we are going to need boardroom stability more than ever.  And for this reason, I hope that the criticisms levelled at the board are measured, and don't become personal...because if they do, it could split our fanbase right down the middle and alienate the staff working behind the scenes.  Hope it doesn't happen, but it does worry me.

I honestly think, the fans who understand football will, although be disappointed in how this season has come to this, will ultimately acknowledge that the club is being run properly. Everyone has made mistakes this season including Fitton, Wilson and the players.

Your right, it's crucial that the fans find a way to move on if we do get relegated.

There will be some delayed reaction when the dullards catch up.

Hopefully the board will react themselves and get things right for next season.

and yet last season even with some 60 goals between 3 players, whenever Dougie didn't play we went to shit.

I love the fact that Fitton and co have made the club financially stable. Their business side running of the game has been pretty impeccable. On the football side, they've made some pretty fucking big errors - Malpas and Greer. Sticking with Wilson so long and the appointment of Paul Hart will be judged in the coming months - but it's not looking good.

I'm to blame as much as anyone else, but it's amazing the footballing mistakes that Fitton has been able to make, with a fairly meh-ish response from fans.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a call to arms against Fitton, more a rather melancholy reflection on the dark legacy the previous regime has left in the minds of supporters. Not in all supporters, there's still a lot, a majority even, who don't give a fucking shit if we've paid the VAT bill or not, and fucking good for them.

Some of us have become endemic to football being a business first and a sport second, to the point where we ignore football mistakes in the light of balancing books and season ticket income streams. The idea that maybe fans should accept under-performance on the pitch in the light of over achievement in book-keeping is a pretty fucking sorry state of affairs, it highlights everything wrong with football.

The idea that any sort of criticism of Fitton is somehow 'wrong' is, well, wrong. He's a chairman of a football club, and he apparently likes being quite involved on the football side. If he can't take complaints when he gets something wrong, then he's no better than Diamandis. Luckily I'm pretty sure he can, and I hope he does regularly read the message boards and listen to the radio texts. I have faith that he's a clever enough bloke to judge where he should listen to the fans - they are his customers after all.

I hope the dark stain of the past will disintegrate away in time, and that we can all go back to moaning about this (or any future) fucking pile of shit season without any thought of "but at least they saved the club".

The fans sometimes need a villain when things go shit, the fact we've deprived ourselves of a villainous manger ("But we made the play-offs last year") and a tyrannical chairman ("but he saved the club"), has somewhat neutered the fans.

Let's get back to moaning. It's for the good of the club.

e: as usual I've used about 10 times as many words as necessary.

Top fucking post, Ben.

Aye it is. Some times people make posts that long and I stuggle to read through them. But I flew through that and enjoyed reading it.

Aye, have to agree - you've got it spot on there Benjamin.

Pulitzer anyone?

Seriously, a damn fine piece that. I hope he and co. read it ...

Like this......like that a lot Ben.

cheers everybody (and bump). Thanks to being quite a way through lots of wine I only vaguely remember writing that. Normally that involves me waking up in the morning thinking "oh shit what the fuck did I post" (well not straight away, but sometime after piss and cup of tea, but before breakfast), but I was quite proud of that one. Which makes a change.

e:(sorry for being so self indulgent)

Good post Ben
Can't help thinking there should be some sort of fan involvement at board level - if only to put 'the other side of the arguement' and grass route views.

So, in the grand scheme of things, £250k on the sale of Greer was deemed the price of our League One status.

Seems reasonable.

Paul fucking Hart as well
Factor in this magic effect Paul Hart is having and we're on a roll.

Fitton can fucking fist himself.

From what I heard, Fitton started looking for a replacement for Wilson after the 3-0 defeat away to Orient. So, 4 weeks to appoint Hart.

Again, entirely reasonable.

Fitton has made a few decisions which, in retrospect, have not worked out.  But I don't think we can lay much of the blame at his door.  This season's failure has taken place on the pitch more than it has in the boardroom.

Agree with that really although I do now think Fitton and the board have to take a long hard look at where they want us to be and how they are going to go about it.

many people were quick to forget bill power.i wonder if he would have cocked up as much?

today, for the first time this season, i am sure were are going down.
fitton has fucked up royally this season.alot of the meddling has been notible since before a ball was kicked this season.now we are reaping the results.

all the optimism,all the wealth of the board,all the targetsset have all been fucking failed miserably.

Agree with that too.  I'm still supportive of the board but, as I mentioned a few days ago, he will now have to face up to the reality that - barring a miracle - we will be playing our football in 2011/12 at a lower level than when he and his board took over.

I know this was not a part of the plan.  And yes (sorry, has to be repeated) we have a club today only because they stepped in in 2007 and we can never forget that fact.  Ever.

But - we all know the board can run a balance sheet.  What we now need to see is that they can run a football club.

The biggest mistake the board made was to sell our best defender, organiser, talker, leader and captain before the start of the season. Lets not forget up until Austin was sold we had no problem scoring goals. (we were the 6th or 7th highest goalscorers at that point)

Defensively we have been shocking this season, both individually and collectively. That has been our downfall.

Have to agree.

Before Austin, Billy wasn't really the hottest striker in League 1 and remember hutch?  What we did do even then was keep it tight at the back and for all their promise Lesh and Morrison may have been able to play with GG but Cuthbert couldn't look after them as GG looked after him.

Take away Charlie's goals though and we've got a really shocking run and it started before he left.  Suspect he wasn't such a good influence himself.

The whole club now seems rudderless - no responsibility on the pitch, no one sorting the players and Fitton always that critical bit too slow to act.  Someone really does need to stick their hand up and take charge

Nail on the Head. In a Nutshell. This. (Insert own agreement cliche here)

Not like he's been banging them in himself since he left. However for us to have scored 5 goals in 9 games since his departure is atrocious whichever way you look at it.

Fitton ought to come out and admit he's made mistakes this season, humbly apologise, reassure the fans that our stay in League 2 will be brief and then most importantly, not repeat the mistakes of last summer.

I don't blame Fitton for the sale of Austin, he wanted out and I doubt he'd have been the same player if he'd been forced to stay. The mistake was not only the failure to adequately replace Paynter - made worse by the fact there was ample opportunity to do so - but to not plan for life after Austin. The deal for Benyon illustrated how unprepared the board was for this. Nothing needs to be said about Greer, it speaks for itself.

The rumours of Fitton's meddling in training and team affairs seem to persist but there doesn't appear to be much evidence to support the suggestions aside from his transfer policy which, whilst admirable, has also been a cause for concern this season. We've spent considerably this season - although nobody knows any exact amounts - but few of the purchases have made an impact on the first team. These types of transfer won't keep us up.

However I do think Fitton has demonstrated that he DOES learn from his mistakes, e.g. the manner and timescale of Wilson's departure and Hart's arrival. The criticism aimed at Fitton for not acting earlier is harsh but fair as any replacement ought to have had the transfer window as an opportunity to restructure in a bid to keep us up, by leaving it until now Hart will be forced to utilise the players already at his disposal who are, to put it politely, a bit of a shambles. Wilson had to go as it was the last roll of the dice but it already appears to have achieved nothing.

He has regarding Greer.

What the hell has happened to Greer anyway? Is he out injured?

Have you asked DViniho? I think he mentioned him once.

In his interview on ITV, Fitton Shamelessly tried to bury the decision for flogging Greer by saying that Wilson 'fully supported the move.'

It pains me to say it, but Fitton trying to rope in the outgoing, humiliated, manager of the club as being equally culpable for what has to be THE most ridiculously stupid, fucking dumb-arsed transfer in the clubs history, just lacks class.

I'd have respect for the bloke on this issue if he'd just taken the blame and shame - regardless of whether or not Wilson agreed with the move - like Jeremy Wray did in his interview of a few weeks ago. He fucked up by selling his club captain. Pure and simple.

Ditto?

Hang on a minute chaps......

Haven't read all of the 80% bollocks in this thread, but enough of it to be able to categorize it as such!

Think we have to remember that sometime in life things go wrong. This season, things have gone spectacularly wrong! Paynter and Greer were offered more money - They left. I don't blame anyone for this. The club were being held to ransom and therefore both left. The club is bigger than any player, so they had to go. 

Ward was only here as a mercenary anyway. He made it clear that this was a stepping stone. Ritchie struggled to get into the team last year because he wasn't as good as the other options we had. Has he improved significantly since then or is he still a little small and a little inconsistent?

If you remember, we were shockingly shit in the Wembley final and in the ,last month of the season. I wonder why? There have been rumours of disquiet in the team since last year. There was stuff about a Greer camp and a Douglas camp. At the beginning of the season, on last year's showing, most were backing Douglas. On this year's performance I suspect most would reconsider! I wonder if that disquiet is more of the reason that things have gone wrong within the club?

Before Austin came last year we were struggling to score. He made the difference in many a games. This years there have been lots of rumours and a culmination of a transfer request and a move. We got lots of dosh for him, despite the fact that he may well go down the Barry Corr route. Think history might prove that it was probably a good move for us.

Pericard was supposed to be the Paynter replacement. We'll it just hasn't worked. Probably difficult to offload him now, which is why he's still here and not contributing!

Three young CBs fighting to make a solid partnership in the heart of defence. All have played individually well, but don't gel together. So, Morrison wanted to go and we signed the mystery man Misun - He's gone missing! We also sign Flint, who looks to be one for the future. We try to bring experience in Frampton, but, I suspect that what we need is someone further up the pitch holding the ball up or breaking up play better? Not had much luck in that department.

On the goalkeeping front, I think that Lucas pulled off some spectacular saves last year. This year, he has been poor in comparison. Smith has appeared better, but neither have had a great year.

So, to be honest, I am happy with last year and disappointed with this one. Am now looking forward to next year and hopefully an opportunity to be up and around the top of L2 and building for the future.

Such rational thought has no place here NMH.  Mods please ban him. 

ward and paynter leaving was out of the clubs hand.ward was only on loan,and paynter was offered improved terms.the same with austin who has gone onto better things.3 huge losses.

greer's situation was different.he wasn't even granted a conversation regarding a contract,after telling the club what was on offer from brighton, and stating he wanted to stay here.
that decision not to even discuss a new deal rests with fitton.wilson wanted greer to stay as did the player himself.

i think we would probably be struggling(in comparison to last season) with greer still here to be honest,but probably not in the drop zone.

Your spot on arriba. No one is saying that we would be top of the league now. But we wouldn't be bottom. We would've picked up more clean sheets earlier this season when we were scoring goals and hence would've won more games. Failing to replace Paynter was massive aswell.

It would be interesting to see if both Greer and Paynter were still here, where we would be. All if, buts and maybes.....

NMH, that's a really good list of all the things that have gone wrong. Those kinds of things go wrong at all clubs (and usually a few more to boot) - what people are so fed up with is the failure to adequately address those issues. Where they have been addressed, it's either been with a woefully inadequate solution or wildly too late, often both. There seems to have been a complacency around far too many problems that's resulted in us being where we are.

so with Paynter(end of contract), Morrison( clause in contract) Ward (loan ended and crocked anyway) the cock up is with greer (already said sorry)  Austin (loads of money and a dodgy shoulder) and maybe Cox (loads of money and didn't want to stay) plus Pericard and Dossevi not performing.
The players are to blame for the rest
Have I got it right?

Wilson lost the plot, Fitton didn't fix it quick enough. Simplicity.

I heard yesterday that Ferry is unfit and out of shape. How the fuck was that allowed to happen? These cunts get paid as much as they do yet they are not fit enough to play 90 minutes? 

Should never be allowed to happen.

Excellent analysis from NMH.  The truth seems to be that we all wear rose-tinted spectacles.  My memory is that last season was actually nail-biting, with a poor start, a solid middle (with spectacular highlights against Leeds and Southampton etc) and a poor end.  The play-off SF against Charlton was one -well two - of those magic, knife edge contests, which we all remember because we won; and then inexplicably the complete let down of the final - not that we lost, but simply there was nothing near a spark from anyone on the pitch.  Something was wrong, and I guess we will never know what, but it was exacerbated in the summer by losing those we did in the way we did.  (Paynter had made it clear from about Feb that he didn't want to play for us; Ward, we all knew, was too good to stay with us in L1; and Greer - well enough said already.
I am a Fitton supporter.  I don't know whether he interferes too much, any more than I know what actually goes on in the dressing room.  He DID save the club, and we are now amongst the most stable in the league.  All this stuff about agents and not ddealing with them...well, Im sure he can't win that battle alone, but I support him in at least trying.  It is agents who are destroying any sense of loyalty to clubs, and in the lower leagues, that is key (allowing for the small number of outstanding players who are discovered and then, inevitably move quickly up the ladder).  We have to find a better way for football to be managed, and it has to be that the whole club lives within its means.  That is painful for those of us who simply love football and want success for our club, and I guess getting to where we need to be will always run the risk of errors being made which rebound on the team.  I've no idea where DW stood in all this, as the go-between, but it seemed as though he was fully supportive of the Fitton strategy.  But, good guy that he was, I suspect he did not have the skills or experience to sort out what could be done in these circumstances.  I agree that the Greer transfer was the shock, and that Douglas (the fans' choice too) has not proved to be a good captain, and that his playing has probably suffered too, as a result (like rather too many England cricket captains).
No answers!!  I believe we will escape the drop.  The team is actually too good, regardless of all the negative bollocks on here, and if PH can just get the team spirit right, very quickly, then we will still be in L1 next season; but regardless of what happens, I remain totally besotted with STFC, and couldn't be anything else.  Indeed I hope next season to be rather closer so my support can be more material!!!

HR, good post, but reagarding escaping the drop, you want to read dvs latest stats posts. Its not impossible yet, but its so highly unlikely (in terms of points required per game) its all but over.

Im not conviced that we would need 52. It's getting very tight down there. I can't Dag and Red winning all their games in hand and coupled with Yeovil and Tranmere getting dragged in after Tuesday night, I think the points needed might be lower. A lot of teams down there have to play each other aswell. We'll see.

That's a possibility. Paynter seemed either unfit or had half a mind on his Leeds move for sure.

But Millwall were also very effective in the football style they played. Battling bruisers with a decent striker, rather than a slick passing team. I was hopeful that Huddersfield would take them out in the semi-final, but Millwall nullified them exactly as they did to us.

Either way and regardless of what others are doing, it would require a phenomenal change in form and luck from us, and very quickly.

We have to win at least 5 games. Up until the Walsall home game I was confident that we could avoid the drop but the last week has just totally made me re-evaluate the situation. I mean bottom of the league, for fuck sake.

Nor am I, I don't think it's even likely to be 50. Problem is, I can't see us reaching much beyond 40

Superb.

He lost the plot not banging down Fittons door in January for more strikers.

Losing the plot means getting hammered. We lost a lot of close games, drew too many games we should have won.

There was only mild criticism of Wilson's line ups and tactics on here considering the run we were on.

I don't think Wilson lost the plot, if anything he kept the same plot, like a bad episode of eastenders over and over again - getting gradually more desperate until you run out of crack.

Wilson had a plan to play some tidy, on the floor, slightly highpaced, direct football. That got worked out back sometime late last season.

Which is ok. You don't even need another plan. It's a plan which WILL FUCKING WORK IN LEAGUE ONE/ DIV TWO/ THIRD DIVISION. But you need the right mix of players. You need a solid defence. Reliable full backs. Two hitters in midfield (not a playmaker, wilson's ONE FORMATION doesn't require one) and someone who can finish upfront (and a holderupper as a bonus).

That was sold from under him and not replaced - either by his fault or the boards. Who cares really? Failure and bottom of the league. FUCKING YAY.

I'm not even going to bother to make sense out of that.

For those (can't remember if it was on this thread but it'll do as well as any) who were arguing that we'd be better off if Fitton and Co sold up because "someone would come in for us", a couple of illustrations as to quite how bad that might be:

The serial bankrupt/conman/liar at Watford:
http://www.twohundredpercent.net/?p=11180
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/mar/18/digger-watford-owner
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/w/watford/9420900.stm

Meanwhile, the unenviable choice for Wrexham fans is between about five/six different consortia featuring variously a convicted criminal who's already killed Chester (just been sent down for decking a copper, so at least he's unlikely to feature now), no less than 3 disqualified directors and a land-sale conman who's banned from doing business in Australia and has been done for fraud over here:
http://www.twohundredpercent.net/?p=11300
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5348290.stm

Or actually not their choice as it will be decided by their current board who seem a lot keener on asset stripping than football.

So, yes, if Fitton and Co were to sell up, someone probably would come in. But the question is who? Be very careful what you wish for.

Or you could end up with some landed gentry type with some cunt advising him who seems yo have a hold on him & dreams of making money to line his own pockets from mythical redevelopment deals.

I'll stick with AF & Co thanks. As a supporter of the Fans consortium, I even wonder if Bill & Co could have come up with the 8 million plus that they have spent on the club so far.

 :zzz:

have fitton and co really put 8 mill into the club?

Yes

after ploughing such huge sums into the club,i'd be feeling a bit sick after fucking the football side up if i were them them.
hopefully lessons have been learned.

Have to agree with that arriba

I dont think anyone is screaming to get Fitton or the board out just because we've had a shit season. Equally, they have pretty much universal support for the job they've done with our financial turnaround.

The problem I have is that every mistake made this season on the football side was avoidable. 

They deserve a metaphorical kicking for fucking up and adopting a conceited, arrogant attitude this season on several counts that I'm not going into again - and they'll get one from the fans if we do go down.

Whatever happens, like the man above pointed out; as long as they dont make the same mistakes again, learn some fucking respect for the supporters of the club and move us on in the right direction, I'd rather have them here than some fucked-up consortia.

I still hold Fitton & Co in very high esteem and I do believe that they will learn from the mistakes that they have made. As a result both they and the club will be all the stronger for it.

I still hold Wilson mostly accountable for our league position

Well said.

Wilson should of shown some bollocks and stood up to Fitton. The not dealing with agents malarky was very admirable, but no cunt of any worth wanted to sign for us and all we got was fucking dross that no one else wanted.

Benefit of hindsight etc, but Ian Holloway paying for his own ticket and sitting in the Town End to case the club a few years ago when he was unemployed was a massive opportunity missed.

Can anyone imagine him putting up with being limited to signing unproven, young, cast-offs or professionally unrepresented players? He'd of laughed his fucking cock off - which is probably why he was passed over and 'Yes Man' Wilson got the job.

As I said, hopfully lessons have been learned all round.

That suggests Wilson took the job without having a clue about Fitton's ideas about how the club should be run. Which would be pretty stupid by either of them. It's not like Wilson hasn't been allowed to bring in experienced players - see Pericard, Rose, Dossevi, Frampton, Sheehan - it's just they have largely been busts.

I have to say at the time I would have been more upset to see Douglas go than Greer - and everyone's said that's a mistake.

The rational part of me says we are down. The irrational part won't accept it till I see August's fixture list and Crawley and Morecambe on it.

I'm pretty annoyed with this repeated statement, it keeps coming up and it's plain not true. Sure, Fitton detests agents, but I suspect the same could be said of all Football Chairmen.

We pay Agent's fees: it's in black and white on the football league website. Half of our Division paid nothing, including a whole lot of teams above us, but we paid a considerable amount (obviously it doesn't break it down, but the amount looks like several deals to me)

Fitton and Wilson both made mistakes, but this Agents thing is a total Red Herring: do we think we were scouting French lower league striker Thomas Dossevi or do you think his agent might have had something to do with the fact he got a trial here?

Dossevi was brought here on the wings of an albatross

I meant Wilson is mostly accountable because we got steadily worse as the season wore on.

i couldn't give a shit about agents really.i'm more concerned with flogging your best players off the back of nearly going up,and replacing them(or in some cases not at all)with dross.
i hold the chairman and the manager equally accountable.
the chairman clearly had his input and put up barriers-let moves happen,and the manager spent-loaned poorly.

I think the only thing Fitton has done wrong is to sell Greer and perhaps only release transfer funds for young promising players. Other than that nobody complained at the players who came in over the summer. There was experience too with Dossevi and Prutton, plus Wilson has previously signed Pericard, Douglas, O'Brien - none of whom are promising youngsters.

Of course it doesn't excuse the fact Greer was (allegedly) sold without Wilson's consent, but I fail to believe that Fitton would block an experienced replacement. Wilson just couldn't attract one to the club and as he'd done with many areas of the squad, wanted to fit square pegs in round holes.

...or he might have genuinely thought Morrison, Cuthbert and LJF could have stepped up.

Its been mentioned before but I still think the waiting till October to talk about contracts is wrong. I'm not saying they should all be done a certain time, but wouldnt we feeling slightly better now if the likes of Cuthbert and Douglas had been offered (...and signed) contract extensions back in July off the back of Wembley?

We've waited the teams been shite, we're going down and neither will be here next season and both will walk for practically nothing.

Infact I'll be surprised if any of the team that got to Wembley are here next season.

i'm convinced the lad who couldn't get a game last year was seen as the replacement for greer(morrison).
dont think wilson believed he was,but i am sure fitton did.
then flogging morrison is about the only good bit of business the club has done this season.we'd be going down if he was still in the team and probably would struggle to sell him now.

i'm not a believer of this fitton only likes younguns to later sell on either(never have been)

Back in the summer, the signings of Prutton, Caddis, Ferry, Sheehan and even Dossevi were seen as brilliant acquisitions. Not replacing Paynter and selling your captain, leader, talker, organiser etc. to a rival before the season starts and not replacing him has been our downfall.  I know its a broken record but if Greer wasn't sold or was adequetly replaced this season would have turned out differently.

I recall some quotes from Wilson that suggested this.

How can a young inexperienced player who was largley on the bench for us last season come in and replace our captain?? Monumental error.

if wilson rated morrison so highly,why was he sent out on loan and last in the pecking order of centre backs last season?

Because Greer and Cuthbert were outstanding at that point.....he had no chance of getting in the team.

ljf was preferred too.even when morrison returned from his laon he hardly featured.
fitton rated morrison,not so much wilson i think.

Spot on arriba, Wilson never fancied Morrison.

This season has been one big cock up from start to finish.

It started after Leeds away-when Paynter was tapped up by Bates not because he wanted to sign him especially- but because he wanted to derail our season(we were 2nd at the time)- he succeeded.

Since the summer losing the likes of Paynter, Austin, Greer, Morrison, Ward, Darby we have not adequately replaced them-this is what has contributed to our likely relegation.

When we go down- i fully expect Fitton to come out and publicly apologise to the fanbase(As Delia did at norwich to her credit) and tell us what his plans our 2 achieve the two successive promotions that will be needed to achieve his 5 year plan. He said if we were not in the championship after 5 full seasons(this is season 3) he would have failed.

Fans will want assurances of the team/plans before parting with season ticket money and who can blame them. Our average gate this year (8651) is the 5th highest in league 1- shows the support is there.

Most importantly i want to be assured that loessons have been learned from the serious mistakes of the last year or so. 

Spot on Bart

Well said indeed. And the last sentence is the most important one :nod:

Agree with Bart.

Never felt so flat about the next seasons prospects. You may think its harsh, but the thought of Hart and 4-5-1 next year fills me with dread.

Well the Hart appointment hasn't really worked,done a decent job with the defence and lets be honest his options up front have been very limited...for me it is time a proper appointment is made now.
The new man will have a few matches and full pre season to sort things.
My feeling is it will be Hart who gets the nod....if so give whoever it is now to get on with the rebuilding.

Itll be trollope.

And i wont be happy

I doubt many fans will be over the moon. And even if he starts off well, they'll be enough fans waiting for him to fail that it will suck some life out of the crowd.

I genuinely hope to god it isn't. I'll be gutted.

We need a buzz. Like Wise and Poyet managed. Not a failed league 1 manager.

As I never tire of saying, we got Wise and Poyet and all their other backroom staff, because we were spending money we didn't have.  That will not happen under the current regime, so it will be a cheap and cheerful appointment.  If Hart can conjure a few wins before the end of the season, it may well be him.

Yes I suppose that is sensible Reg. Don't get me wrong, we can't let ourselves go back to financial ruin. I'm not suggesting we will splash out on a top name and all their staff. Merely that Trollope and (for me) Hart are appointments of the Malpas type - uninspiring.

We've had Wilson. I thought he was a good calibre of manager when we appointed him. I'd rather see a Wilson type appointed that will give us fans some degree of optimism than a Trollope who largely won't.

For me a Paul Sturrock or a  Gary Johnson kind of experienced manager would be my kind of choice.

If I were Fitton, I would pay compo and get Tisdale in and put him on a long contract, that could only really happen if we were to stay in this division though.

But Fitton & Co do have the money don't they? Surely it would be in their interests to finance the appointment of a top calibre management team and a few players? (or as good as you can get in Div 4) Brighton have spent some serious money and are reaping the rewards. Spend some money now to get out of Division 4 and back up to the Championsip and then with the vastly increased revenues, the Club can become self financing and self sufficiant.

You don't particularly need a name to get out of Div 4, but someone who knows their trade. Look at the managers doing it this season....John Sheridan, Alan Knill, Gary Waddock, Paul Buckle, Graham Westley, Coleman at Stanley. No names there.

Here's one out of nowhere: Robbie Savage?

I agree completely. And who knows, maybe next season we will be able to add Paul Trollope to that list. But why not 'throw some money' at the playing side for couple of seasons, get up to the Championship and then say ,"Right, the club now has to be self supporting" Which it will be feasible for it to be with vastly increased revenues.

for all the money fitton and co have ploughed into the club it has got us nowhere where it matters,on the pitch.
i'd actually go as far as saying it's as poor a squad as i can remember currently.
i can't think of a single player we have that would command a reasonable transfer fee.

we are ok in most departments and i think in div 4 will more than hold their own.but i also think we will need to spend too.2 forwards are needed straight away.
i'd also stretch ourselves for a decent, proven centre half.one who could take the armband immediately.

I wouldn't call a Sturrock or Wilson a "name". Just people who have experience and some success. We could go for an unknown and it work. However its less risky but more expensive to go with experience.

.

I don't disagree but you need to look at the long game. Once off the pitch debts are paid off or are serviceable then things are more likely to happen on the pitch. i.e. you can't build on sand.

i appreciate that batch,but i'm afraid fans look at results first and foremost.

Why on earth would Tisdale come to us?

He's a decent manager and alot of our fans have wanted him the last 3 or 4 times the STFC managers job has come up, now Exeter are a division above us. Why would he take the backwards step?

Yes absolutely. And from the outside this season has seen reasonable investment in the team, its just been a total fuck up on who we invested in (or didn't invest in). Its not clear whether this was Wilson, or whether Wilson was working with handcufs on.

bit of both i think batch

More or less on day one, Fitton stated they wouldn't be throwing money at this project. Nothing thta's happened since suggests they've any intention of changing that position...which is fair enough in my book.

I suspect that if Hart can deliver at least a couple of wins in what's left of this train wreck of a season, then he'll be given the job.

Heard today havent even sold 1000 season tickets.

Im right behind Hart until the end of the season. But for him to be given the job on current evidence would be rediculous, because despite everyone feeling a bit better because we've spilt some blood over this season (pushing Wilson out of the door) it has to be said that the results are just as bad as the last 3 months under Danny Wilson. 

Pretty shocking.

The warning given for the early bird offer was pretty short. Hopefully they'll extend it.

Still not received renewal stuff yet

But Hart has had to use Wilson's team, which as I've pointed out is the worst in STFC's Div 3 history. This has meant we've had the wrong sort of players, playing in the wrong way for the division we're in.  Hart has at least indentified we need a couple of big buggers, and need to be playing attritional football.  For next season we'll need a complete clear out and a total re-build, with players more suited to Div 4, and if it's attritional, then so be it. I'd say there's sufficient evidence that Hart/McParland are capable of doing this.

Blimey. I do think the lack of renewal notices has hurt though, I intend to renew but haven't got round to it yet for one reason or another: if someone phoned me I'd do it right now, but if I end up missing the Early Bird deadline through my own laziness then I'll be less likely to pay more.

I wonder if the board have realised that not many fans will renew, and would rather take more cash from fans renewing out of habit after the early bird offer has expired? After all, a lot of fans will turn up on walk up next season anyway.

I'm still fifty/fifty on whether to renew, as my 7 year old loves going and it doesn't matter as much to him what league we're in and who our manager is.  However, the fact that I've received absolutely nothing from the club (along with many others by the sounds of things) is the icing cake on what has been an absolutely shambolic season.  That coupled with the concern that Paul Hart might be given the job on a full-time basis and I'm really concerned about where we're heading on the pitch is at the moment making it highly unlikely that I will renew.

Surely if they've sold less than 1000 STs they'll have to extend the deadline?  I remember saying a few weeks ago that the Board had completely underestimated the damage this season and relegation would do and we'd be lucky to get 2,500 STs.  That figure is starting to look unlikely unless there's a sudden mad rush in the next week or so.  They must be concerned?

As Bart said, this could be a good time for Mr Fitton to make a few apologies to the supporters.  It might help make up the minds of some who are still sitting on the fence about renewing.

Not surprised I know 18 season ticket holders and about 14 are not renewing it was going to be 16 but 2 have decided to renew after all. I can not see many more than 3000 ST holders next year shame for Fitton and Co as they were starting to get a momentum of lapsed supporters coming back but to be brutally honest they only have themselves to blame for not acting earlier to change the management.

Really interesting reading everyone's comments. Have admitted before that I am unable to go to matches anymore as there are too many other things drawing on my time. However, am interested in people's reasoning for not renewing STs.

For me, the thing that stopped me going to games (I was never an ST holder) was movement up the leagues. I loved watching 4th Div football, I liked watching 3rd Div football, but I didn't enjoy 2nd Div as much and when we got promoted to the newly established Premier League I lost interest big time.

The reason for the lack of interest was because of the style of football. I loved watching blood and guts displays, but found the more pretty and less frenetic style of play less exciting. Furthermore, some of the stuff in 4th division was entertaining in a comedic sort of way. From my vantage point on the Stratton Bank (losing this spot was another reason for lack of motivation) I could see what players should do, what they were trying to do and then what actually happened - which was pure comedy genius at some points!

Personal highlights for me include Dave Hockaday flatfoot runs down the right wing and his mishit cross beating Shilton. Rambo getting caught out of position from kickoff and tackling someone feet first round the waist and getting sent off in the 1st minute. Finally, listening to John Gittens high pitched squeak was the only comedy gold as we progressed up the leagues!

League 2 - Its alright there really!

with you on this one brother :nod:

Already looking forward to Div 2, AWAY GAMES RULE

Is the ST renewal deadline next weekend?

Its good if we are planning on going out and winning it. Not so good if we are planning on doing things on the cheap, trying to scrape in the PO's.

I did enjoy L2 last time. Unusally our fans were very brash and self confident and we seemed to be a big draw for every club we went to. I think that translated onto the pitch a lot, which helped us get over the line.

Loved going to Hereford and Shrewsbury with cheap train tickets. But one of those grounds has gone forever, new out of town ground might be tough to get a train back, and the other sounds like they have bastardised it with seats. Like I said on another thread, the best support Ive ever seen us have at Wycombe was in L2. Getting a bit tired of Jills, might try and do Southend properly instead.

Anyway, come on Fitton, we need you to give the club a direction again. Players are much more valuable in L1 than they are in L2 and there is nothing positive for the board in going down.

We're now seen as a Div 3 Div 4 yo-yo team....where the odd decent Div3 season is the abberation rather than a season of struggle, flirting with or getting relegated.  We're also now seen as a club that regularly loses in cup games to Conference sides.

Although players are more valuable in Div3, it's probably easier to recruit players from lower down, who can play in Div 4 without being quite so exposed .

Reg i fail to see if we do go down how only 2 seasons in division 4 since 1986 constitutes a yo-yo team. Wycombe would be a better example

Or you could look at it as two out of our last 6 seasons in the bottom div.

He wouldn't. Read my post.

I disagree with some posters who think this is the worst squad that we had in years. I haven't looked forward to season like I have this one in ages. I think the last time we really under performed to this extent was when we got relegated to the old Division Two in 1995. On paper this is the best team we've had in a long long time.

05/06 or 00/01 are the shittest teams i can remember

Exactly... with a third a near thing.  Bart we've become a yo-yo team, whereas before we were seen as a reliable Div 3 side...decent in cups with the odd couple of seasons upward.

a third?

have I lost a seasons somewhere?

The 05/06, side although shit could win the odd game and was 5 points better off at the same stage, than this side. The 00/01 side was 10 points better off at the same stage, and just stayed up.....no this is the worst side probably since 55/56 in the old Div 3 South. There wont be many who go who can remember that far back.

08/09 was a near thing.

Sorry Reg, we're all pissed off about this season, but that is nonsense.

not really.

we had goals, goals and more goals in that team. never going down.

Fuck me if OTJ hadn't fluked a last minute point at Carlisle, we'd have been sat a point clear of Gayers and Cobblers, with them having games in hand, and us just a couple left.

yeah and if we hadnt lost so many games this season and won them all we'd be doing alright ::)

Cox was the difference that season. I agree with Reg though, that OTJ goal was vital to us. In mid march that year I was convinced we were down.

Anyway....back to the original point of the debate, which is Spence saying last time he thinks we were seen as a "big" club in Div 4....to which I would counter that this time we wont be seen in this fashion, having got back so soon after departing.

true.which highlights how poor our current squad is.
not 1 sellable asset imo

I'd say Cuthbert would be a sellable asset if he wasnt out of contract 3 months and thus can go for free or peanuts at a tribunal.

He's a good player but a young player. In the right team with the right and partner and he's a damn fine player. I wouldnt have swapped him for any other L1 centre back last season. Out of the current lot I think he's the only player who will make a decent (ie better than us) career for himself.

i agree but he's only worth peanuts currently though.

I could find this out myself, I know, but I'll ask here anyway because someone else (Reg) is quite likely to know the answers anyway.

• What is our record winless run?
• What is our record winless run in the 3rd or 4th tiers?
• Are we anywhere near breaking either of the above?
• Morbid curiosity here, how many seasons in our history have we spent in the 4th tier?  And of these, how many were dire?  (I'm just trying to ascertain, if we do finish bottom, whether this really will rate as one of the worst seasons in our history.)

Had Fitton, the board or whoever is to blame acted when they should have done, we may have got Cuthbert to sign an extension.  Therefore he would have had some value when he goes in the summer.

As it stands it's another example of everything that has gone wrong this season ie shit decision making by those in charge.

19 in Div 2....99/00

This is it

As above

5...only really one, 82/83, but we did have a cup run.

Thanks Reg.  That frames the situation nicely.  Demonstrates just how awful this season really has been.

I didn't realise that we had only spent 5 season on the bottom rung, by the way.  And one of those was 2006/07.  We do not belong in that division, and never have.  I hope plans are being being made already to get us out quickly.  One season in League 2 will be something of a novelty, but it's all going to wear a bit thin after 12 months.

Remove the Plymouth points deduction, look at the games in hand others have and the true position of the inept, limp dicked bunch of toss that is STFC is truly revealed. Absolutely shocking without any of the context Reg has just added.

How many games is it without a win now?

I make it 16

I make it 6 points out of 48 - hope I'm wrong  :crash:

If we don't win Tuesday or Saturday we'll have gone 3 months winless.

It's quite ironic that in the last game we won, we also finally banished the 20 month record of being unable to come from behind and win.  We all thought that it could be the season's turning point and it certainly was, but sadly for the wrong reasons.  We've gone from not being able to come behind and win to not being able to win full stop.  If we fail to win in the next 4 games, Andrew Fitton will have a number of unenviable records as Chairman and it honestly wouldn't surprise me if he walked in the summer.

we will win on tuesday and saturday.

I dont think Exeter away will be easy at all, a draw at best.

Do you seriously think there's a chance we may not win? :hmmm:

I seriously do  ::)

I think I went through the "We have to win at some point" phase a few weeks ago.

Supporting Swindon has always been a slightly masochistic past time, and our current run of form triggers that part of my brain a bit. If we're not going to turn things around then I'm far from above wallowing in our shit run. If we slump into our worst season in non-reg living memory then so be it.
 

I dont think we will win for the rest of the season! If we are going to break our winless record, we might as well shit on it!

This is all just Wembley karma. It was all good then the karma God realised it was Swindon so he decided to shit on us for a season, just to make up for it.

A good point, JTR. It worries me that Fitton will walk away from the Chairman's position if / when we go down.

Fitton, the board and the background investors like to give the impression of being a group of minted mates, who shoved a load of money in to save the football club and to run it sensibly as a business that will ultimately become self financing via the revenue form the redeveloped stadium.

The reality is probably more along the lines of it being a long-term investment that they planned to offload at some point, presumably making a healthy profit from it. Remember that the recession hadn't kicked in when they took control, so they will no doubt be falling well short of what they thought they'd do revenue/business wise, and the opportunity to make money out of it has been significantly diminished, if not dissapeared.

Relegation will be a financial disaster for the board. No amount of dressing it up will deny that fact.

Fitton is hurting big-style at the moment as everything is focussed on him now that Wilson has gone and he's appointed Hart on a shit-or-bust mission.

If Hart's mission fails, people are going to want answers. Many will use it as the excuse they needed not to buy a season ticket and the whole fucked-up situation will need even more funds thrown at it just as the plumetting revenue meltdown gets going as we fall through the L1 trap door and move into a tight summer period in revenue terms.

The crux of my point is that IF Fitton walks, will the other board members lose interest and also want away, or will one of them step into the limelight and take over from Fitton?

The fact that the club is a lot healthier in financial terms is more worrying than if it was debt-ridden, as it is a lot more attractive to another Diamandis-style raid, should Fitton and the board want out.

Great post delta, well summed up.

The recession had not yet started in Dec 2007, but the credit crunch happened the previous summer so I think everyone knew that recession was on its way.  This is the part of your post that I don't think I agree with...because making money from lower league football clubs is a mug's game.  And any profit that could be extracted over the medium term from a club like STFC would be small change to the likes of Jeremy Wray or Sir Martin Arbib.

I think that a more likely scenario is that the present board saw an opportunity to put a high profile local club back on its feet for relatively little outlay and then watch it as it grew.  I'm sure they thought that once the performance drag of the previous ownership was removed and the back office functions improved (which they did very quickly), the club would start to perform better on the pitch as a consequence.  That was a seductive argument for those of us who could see the damage that Diamandis' involvement, in particular, was doing.

In practice, the last 3 years have been great off the pitch, but (averaged out) not great on it.  What I'm trying to say, in a fairly long winded way, is I don't think Fitton's likely to walk just yet.  I don't think it's all about the money, for the reasons stated above.  And neither do I think he wants to be remembered as the chap who arrived to a great fanfare at the end of 2007, only to leave us 4 years later in a lower league than when he took over.  I think (and hope) he will want to stick around a while longer to get things working as well on the pitch as they do off it.

totally agree with the above. Hope the fanbase keep the faith and stick with the club. This season whilst being a huge disappointment and underachievement-whats most important is that we bounce straight back and the board learn from their mistakes and dont repeat them

Fair point, Ardiles.

I wasn't suggesting that Fitton or the board just came in to bleed the club dry and to make money out of the development in a cynical way. More like you said, to improve everything, enjoy it on the way and to leave the club better off than it was when they arrived.

On the other hand, I think it would be naive in the extreme for anyone to think that they took over with altruistic intentions.

I still have faith in Fitton and the board. Like everyone else, I might bitch like fuck about the mistakes they've made, and I'm far from happy about this season, but I'd rather have them here than another bunch of wankers like Wills and Diamandis.

I'll also be paying for my season ticket this week.

Spot on...on all counts.

the board will get a bloody nose in regard of season ticket sales.
if we are doing well next season it wont matter though,as fans will turn up and buy tickets for matches.
get next season wrong, then the club will be in big trouble.
what is done over the summer is massive for stfc's future

 :(

What an absolute shambles this club is.

To be honest- cannot see more than 2k season ticket sales and the board fully deserve this.

Public apology please fitton

Why stop there, Fitton for the stocks I reckon, public flogging, dragged through the streets naked.

It would be disgraceful for any member of any club to apologise for relegation before it is mathematically confirmed.

2k is an underestimation. I would guess closer to 4.

Really? We'd only sold 1,000 or so as at the weekend.

I'm sticking with closer to 4 than 2.

That's right, we worked too hard during last weekends loss that we couldn't put up a fight this evening.

It looks like the "OH NO! PAUL HART!" hysteria pre-appointment seems justified. I couldn't care less if he did a roundhouse on a mini-bus full of Oxford fans... Just get us a win!

As arriba says,a lot will depend on who is brought in as manager.

We will sell 2000 tops- down from 5600 this year. Board 100% to blame- no excuses.

I think it will be more 4. I know 6 people who have renewed. Seriously, I don't think we'll sell any after the deadline, so 1500 is realistic.

If we still haven't won by the end of the Oldham game I'm chucking my season ticket away

I'd blame the players just as much. And I'm still sticking with 3k+

Of course we will. Loads of people buy after the deadline because they can't get afford to do it before.

Yup. Equal portions Wilson, players and the board. They've all let us down badly. Although the players have also let Wilson and the board down on top so they're top of my dart board list

the thought of sub 5k crowds again is very depressing

2000 but if Trollope gets appointed 500 of those will ask for their money back.

http://allspirit.co.uk/kipling.html

:D :D

All played like lardy's that's for sure.

Renewed mine today and Dave in the ticket office said we'd sold nearly 1500 already and open all weekend.

"Nearly 1500 already"? Let's be honest, it's fucking crap and being open all weekend isn't going to put another couple of thousand on is it?

(Says he, who's renewing his tomorrow morning because he just doesn't bloody learn)

I don't imagine there's going to be a mad rush after tonight's result (Paul D aside  :) and even less so if we lose again on Saturday.

I think most people will renew on the early bird although there might be some who are waiting to see who's going to be managing us.  That could sway a few more dependant on who it is.  If it's Hart, I would imagine some will be asking for refunds.  I can't see it going above 2,500.

I may be mad, but I don't think I constitute a rush :)

I'll be renewing Thursday or Friday. I can't fucking wait for this season to be over - next season has got to be better no matter what division we're in.

That's what Oxford and Grimsby fans said (probably).

Will be renewing later in the week but if Hart's appointed I'll be wanting a refund.

Both clubs had off field issues if memory serves.

Dave in the ticket office numbers are always a bit generous. I took the early bird offer because I will come back again for another year. I am bit peeved at having to pay in March for a season that doesn't start for 5 months ago. I thought end of April last year was bad enough and I can't see them asking fans to renew any earlier next year. Gates next year will depend on how we are doing but can still see us getting 6-7K. It needs an inspiring manager appointment, for all the Wills/Mike D issues in 2006/7 the Wise/Poyet appointment (and Strurrock afterwards) got the momentum going from the start.

I've had a ST for 17 of the last 21 seasons but I'm not getting one next year. This season has killed my enthusiasm for STFC big time.

Something which made me realise how shit this season has been, is how a year ago I'd be boasting to other fans about how lucky we were to have the wonderful board and chairman we have, and how things were looking good off the pitch blah blah.

Now I don't really bring it up, because if I do I'm very aware that I just sound hopefully defensive.

I'm confident that we'll get around the 6k /7k next season. However the thought of another nail biting season beckons. The feeling of the Walsall game when I genuinely thought that we wouldn't be seeing League 2 football again in a long time coupled with the feeling at the Rovers game two years ago when we stayed up, all of that has gone to waste this season. It hurts so much more this time, I'm so gutted.

6.5-7m attendances? Blmey, that is positive.

Thanks Nemo, it's changed, it's the tears getting in the way. :-[

Pay day is tomorrow for me, and presumably a lot of other people. I'm renewing, we will get 3000 season ticket holders, minimum.

I think you are right even during the dark days of the previous regime we regularly had 3000 season ticket holders, I really can not see us getting more than 5.5k average unless we make a start like we did under Wise/Poyet.  The board must be very worried right now as to how they are going to plug the massive drop in revenue they are going to see.

Well they'll have to put their hands in theirs pockets and make up the shortfall. It's been their poor decisions that have helped contribute to this mess.

If i was Sir Martyn arbib and the other investors i would have a serious chat with Fitton over the summer and tell him to keep his nose out the managers business. He is too close to transfers imo and needs to take a step back.

The sums trousered for Cox and Austin, would probably incline the investors to think Fitton must be doing something right. As to whether any of our current crop can aggregate value in Div 4, we'll have to wait and see....

Agree but then the wages we pay for this lot we have may make them think otherwise

Except they've not been "trousered" have they? They've in part been ploughed back into the playing budget, in part used to offset some of the operating loss which the board/major shareholders are continuing to fund. The implication they're "trousering" transfer fees while letting the club go to shit is frankly laughable

To be fair Paul I read "trousered" meant as "received" rather than "diverted from club".

Not implied at all, in any sense other than the stated policy of wanting to get in players, increase their value and sell them on.

I didn't, there's clear implications of private profiteering. And whether Reg meant that or not, there's plenty who apparently do believe it, so thought it worth making the counter-argument

Fair enough.

I've had several heated disagreements with otherwise sensible folk making the same accusations.

Any profits being made from transfer fees are being used to fund the wages of players and to cover the cost of the shortfall of income v expenditure.


As for Next Season, with regards to the Salary Cap in League 2, is it based on estimated revenue for next season, or is it based on the revenue from the previous financial year?

I'm guessing this could have quite an impact on what players we are likely to have next season.

That's 2600 already renewed.

Our fans are brilliant.  No joke.  The way attendances have held up this year...and better than expected sales for next season in the circumstances.  I'm genuinely impressed.

Heroes, every one of them.

We'll get 3000 before the weekend is up no problem.

It's the hardcore 3,000 that will or have renewed. We won't get much more on top of that unless a big name or 2 arrives over the summer like Wise did back in 06.

What was this seasons ST figure? 5600 or so? If we get 4000 that would be remarkable. 3000 is a massive decrease in "up front" cash :(

But how many of the 5600 took up the offer only because there was a chance of Championship football at a very low price?

Look at it historically over the past few years and I'd imagine 3000-4000 was the norm.

This season was 5600 ish admittedly with Wembley goundswell, last season was circa 5000 because of the "get to 6000" promotion and cheap prices. Fitton & co were getting more of our fanbase to buy season tickets.

3000-4000 seems a backwards step, though obviously getting relegated does that so what do I expect!

Aren't we jumping the gun a tad here.

In what way?

This season isn't even over yet (I know we're down) and people are commenting on ST sales.

That's what happens when early bird discount ends 4 months from the beginning of next season!

Oh

Errrm.

I pay little attention to such details, I'll go back to sleep now.

Oh right, assumed you realised that earlybird ends on Sunday. There may be a last minute rush after then I suppose....

According to last year's thread as of April 12th we only sold 2500, and there was disappointment that the £199 tickets didn't sell as well as expected. So I suppose it's hard to call based on current figures.

http://thetownend.com/index.php/topic,37373.240.html

I think our 'core' is bigger than it used to be.  If we do challenge next year (by which I mean remaining in the top 10 for most of the season), I would expect our average gate to fall only by 1,000 or so.

I know that's a big if.

Yes true. Early bird ran out a bit later last year but point taken.

It doesn't really matter how many season tickets we sell. If we're near the top and winning football matches we'll get all the casuals coming back anyway. We'll average around 7,000 at the start of next season. Fans are a fickle bunch.

From a cash point of  view more casuals making up the number = more revenue  as  matchday ticket sales cost more.

From a planning point of view its much worse for the club - we are less likely how much cash we will generate. This could affect player recruitment over the summer, and possibly our wage cap as projected revenue is uncertain??

I meant from an attendance point of view. Obviously like you said, financially it does matter how many ST we sell.