Let's Get Political!

[horlock07]

Incidentally anyone had a kitchen sink chucked at them by power-hungry lefties in recent days?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/02/labour-throwing-kitchen-sink-at-swindon-election

The guy on the left looks like Graham from Jeremy Kyle....

Its the Lib Dems and the Tories battling here, both wankers so not sure what to do, the Tories sole campaign message is that they will deliver a better Brexit than the Lib Dems....

[pauld]

The guy on the left looks like Graham from Jeremy Kyle....

They're all on the left And who?

[horlock07]

I don't disagree with most of what you say. The flaw here is the decision in the first place to hold a referendum that wasn't legally binding and wasn't clear, leaving an unholy mess to resolve. But it doesn't alter the fact that the majority of people who voted in that referendum voted to leave the EU. Parliament trying to overturn delay or otherwise get round that via backdoor shenannigans just look like a stitch-up along the lines of "We gave you a vote but you got the wrong answer so we're going to ignore you" and that plays into the hands of those who seek to undermine parliamentary democracy. There's a reason the Russians pumped money and bots into Brexit as enthusiastically as they did Trump. There's a reason the far right backed both.

I knew you would say this, hence why I added....

They have had 2 years to sort this out (nothing to stop they just tagging a clause onto the back of the A50 bill) and have chosen not to address it, instead just waving their cocks around and talking bollocks.

A lot of my work involves dealing with law and Acts of Parliament (its thrilling!) but the precedent that this threatens to set (as with the Henry VIII powers) is truly frightening and would set us well on the way to a dictatorship where the executive can do what they like without scrutiny, its easily sorted as the Tories have a majority in parliament -especially whilst Labour are acting as their facilitators on all things Brexit so why are they not sorting it, if Corbyn flip flops to remain, as many of his supporters when challenged, suggest he will when the public climate is right that chance will have gone?

[horlock07]

They're all on the left And who?

Can tell you don't work from home.....

[pauld]

As I say, I agree with your critique of how the Brexiteers have fucked this up. And will continue to do so, I think I've made clear my view that they are vain, incompetent buffoons. But I am looking merely to sound a note of caution that the political classes would do well not to underestimate the depth of anger if parliament does not deliver what the public voted for. That is how we ended up with Brexit in the first place, because the elites ignored the concerns of the population, and they seem well on their way to drifting back into Westminster bubble complacency all over again. Arron Banks, Farage, the alt-right loons and their Russian funders will be rubbing their hands with glee.

[Pax Romana]

the EU have experts dealing with it who understand and interpret the laws and treaties that we signed up to (and in many cases actually instigated).

Not sure that I buy into the "EU experts" line. 

I haven't read the treaty, of course, but I'd bet that there is simply no means of exiting smoothly from the EU no matter how thoroughly you understand the treaty.  They never thought anyone would exit so the exit mechanism never got properly written or kept up to date.  There are plenty of contracts out there with completely impractical and/or incomplete cancellation clauses.

All the EU have to do is sit there saying "non", it's the UK who has to articulate a viable legal way out. And there isn't one.

[horlock07]

Not sure that I buy into the "EU experts" line. 

You are probably right, competent would have been a much better choice of word.

[Pax Romana]

You are probably right, competent would have been a much better choice of word.

Assuming that I have correctly interpreted your nicely nuanced response as "ok they're merely competent to our utterly incompetent" then I'm still not sure that you are right.

David Davis is clearly an embarrassment; stupid and lazy.  But just because the front man is a moron that doesn't mean everyone working on the treaty behind him is as well.  Surely the reality is that we have voted to enact something that is impossible to do in any sensible way and that is why we are floundering to achieve the unachievable?.


 

[pauld]

David Davis is clearly an embarrassment; stupid and lazy.  But just because the front man is a moron that doesn't mean everyone working on the treaty behind him is as well. 

Well, it's not just David Davis - there's the "disgraced former minister" Liam Fox (as he should have remained), the vanity project that is Michael Gove and the self-regarding buffoon Johnson. That's quite some cabal. But I get your meaning - you mean that just because the ministers are oafs, doesn't mean the civil servants behind them aren't every bit as competent as they always were. Good theory but:
a) We don't have civil servants with experience of negotiating these kinds of treaties as we haven't needed them for over 40 years. The EU have always done that for us (and the other member states), so they do
b) A lot of the civil servants who do have expertise in at least dealing with the EU have quit because they're fed up of dealing with the oafs appointed to lead them.
So, no, we may well not have quite the hinterland of competence you'd like to imagine. We are proper in the poo

[BambooToTheFuture]

We're always in the shit PaulD, it's just the depth that varies.

People looking at this from the outside in, must think this just stinks of a vanity project gone awfully wrong.

[horlock07]

People looking at this from the outside in, must think this just stinks of a vanity project gone awfully wrong.

Never thought I would be comparing Swindon Town and Brexit!

[BambooToTheFuture]

Never thought I would be comparing Swindon Town and Brexit!

  At least we can laugh about it (Town) or is it just the madness has finally got to (never left) us?

[Pax Romana]

a) We don't have civil servants with experience of negotiating these kinds of treaties as we haven't needed them for over 40 years. The EU have always done that for us (and the other member states), so they do
b) A lot of the civil servants who do have expertise in at least dealing with the EU have quit because they're fed up of dealing with the oafs appointed to lead them.
So, no, we may well not have quite the hinterland of competence you'd like to imagine. We are proper in the poo

I still think that we are primarily "proper in the poo" because the task is unachievable.  You can be the best football manager in the world but if you're managing San Marino then you're still fucked.

You are right however on the points you raise, particularly on point b) which I had forgotten about.  

[Pax Romana]

Part of the problem for Bercow is that he looks and sounds like the sort of petty tyrant for whom bullying would be a way of life.

I would be amazed if these allegations aren't the tip of the iceberg.

[pauld]

I still think that we are primarily "proper in the poo" because the task is unachievable.  You can be the best football manager in the world but if you're managing San Marino then you're still fucked.

Yes, agree there. Also think your analogy is very apt - our Brexit "team" is very much San Marino, but sadly in their own minds Davis, Johnson and Fox think they're Germany.