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Author Topic: Let's Get Political!  (Read 1254378 times)
pauld
Aaron Aardvark

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« Reply #11175 on: Friday, March 12, 2021, 13:40:46 »

You’re on here time and time again with your other lefty followers bitching about anything remotely associated with the Conservative party.
You're taking this as party political. It's not. I'd happily take a competent, honest Tory govt over this lot and referenced your hero Maggie in that regard. They're not even Conservatives in any meaningful sense of the word, any more than Trump is. They are plumbing new depths of corruption and with it overturning institutions and conventions that are cornerstones of democracy and the rule of law to do so. In much the same way Trump did in the US, it is an attack on democracy in this country and a unique threat in a way that previous administrations, Tory or otherwise, have not been and it is completely antithetical to the traditions of the Conservative party.
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pauld
Aaron Aardvark

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« Reply #11176 on: Friday, March 12, 2021, 13:55:01 »

Expect more announcements next week, as the Government is due to receive a Report expected to abet its plans to hand pick our presently still independent Judiciary.

The separation of powers between Executive, Legislative and Judiciary has been the foundation of most liberal democracies, notably the USA's.  Any moves by the Government to rig our judiciary will undermine rather than enhance the functioning of our democracy.

This is not a matter of left or right.  So envelope stuffing misses the point. 

IMO, the question is do we wish to follow the Trumpian direction of picking judges for their politics and of contesting election results so that control of the law is concentrated in the few.

Or do we wish the Government to have a program of laws, parliament to debate and pass them and independent judges to apply them?
Thank you, you've expressed far better than I could the thrust of what I was getting at in terms of why this govt is a unique threat. I'd add to that the persistent lying to parliament and refusal to correct the record undermines any concept of accountability, again a key cornerstone of the system.
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Ardiles

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« Reply #11177 on: Friday, March 12, 2021, 14:07:35 »

I would say on a par with Tony Blair's Labour party taking us to war on a lie resulting in 1,000's of deaths, which you so conveniently forget about!

I think it's a sign of how polarised the political discourse has become that some assume you can't rail against corruption in the Tory party and also castigate Tony Blair & his Labour govt for taking the country in to an illegal war in 2003.  It's not either/or.

Political positions can be so entrenched that folk often cling to their political allegiances in the same way they would a footballing allegiance.  And it shouldn't be that way.  My devotion to STFC is unconditional...even now.  But I will switch (& have switched in the past) from one political party to another when my feelings or motivations change.
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horlock07

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« Reply #11178 on: Friday, March 12, 2021, 14:13:59 »

I would say on a par with Tony Blair's Labour party taking us to war on a lie resulting in 1,000's of deaths, which you so conveniently forget about!

Tony Blair (who I have zero time for) led a government that took us war, following a vote in parliament, which you conveniently forget Conservative MP's voted in favour of.
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Flashheart

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« Reply #11179 on: Friday, March 12, 2021, 14:17:04 »

I've noticed that people who engage in black and white thinking tend to assume everybody else does as well. Some actually get quite confused when other people don't think the same way.

Oh, and I'm another Tory-basher who would be happy to see Blair thrown in jail.
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chalkies shorts

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« Reply #11180 on: Friday, March 12, 2021, 14:31:20 »

Could somebody name me the last government that acted with integrity and in the interests of the people. I'm 59 and I can't think of one. Audrey nails it in his previous comments.
This one is probably the worst but Thatcher should have been jailed for the way she dealt with the miners.
Also, on Blair. I'm in the minority who think he was the one keeping bush on a leash waiting for the UN to act. When they didn't, off came the leash. I genuinely think Bush listened to Blair.
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Nemo
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« Reply #11181 on: Friday, March 12, 2021, 14:41:11 »

Could somebody name me the last government that acted with integrity and in the interests of the people. I'm 59 and I can't think of one. Audrey nails it in his previous comments.
This one is probably the worst but Thatcher should have been jailed for the way she dealt with the miners.
Also, on Blair. I'm in the minority who think he was the one keeping bush on a leash waiting for the UN to act. When they didn't, off came the leash. I genuinely think Bush listened to Blair.

I guess the problem is that any government that stays in power for any length of time does so many things that there'll always be some bad things and people fixate on those to the exclusion of anything they did that was good. I won't defend the Iraq War (or PFI...), but Blair's government also brought in the minimum wage, independence for the Bank of England, SureStart and plenty of good. Cameron got the Conservative party to pass equal marriage and then fucked it by getting far to into austerity. Even this Government, who might be the most risible of my lifetime, have done some good things.

But nuance is not the way of the modern world. I'd take an "80% of stuff I agree with" government any day, but it seems many (or at least, a very vocal minority) want their perfect candidate or bust.

« Last Edit: Friday, March 12, 2021, 14:43:43 by Nemo » Logged
pauld
Aaron Aardvark

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« Reply #11182 on: Friday, March 12, 2021, 14:42:17 »

Could somebody name me the last government that acted with integrity and in the interests of the people. I'm 59 and I can't think of one. Audrey nails it in his previous comments.
No I'm sorry but this "Oooh, they're all as bad as each other" horseshit is how Trump got away with so much of his criminality and precisely what this govt is relying on in plumbing new depths of corruption and assaults on democracy. This is much worse than anything we have seen before, whether it's the blatant lying to parliament, the deliberate and continual flouting of the law, the assaults on the judiciary and freedom of the press, the attacks on the right to protest and the deliberate undermining of the concept of truth. Shit like this "Oooh, they're all at it" is what legitimises it all, and it's what they're relying on to keep getting away with it and pushing further still. Stop excusing it.
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joeydubya

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« Reply #11183 on: Friday, March 12, 2021, 14:54:37 »

People may or may not have liked Corbyn and his cabinet, but he did a much better job of holding Cameron, May and Johnson to account. The reason why we have such brazen, apparent corruption is that the current opposition would rather score own goals in the vain dream that they might appeal to Conservative swing voters and media.
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Arriba

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« Reply #11184 on: Friday, March 12, 2021, 14:55:24 »

I would say on a par with Tony Blair's Labour party taking us to war on a lie resulting in 1,000's of deaths, which you so conveniently forget about!

Do you believe it would have been a different outcome under a Tory government? I would bet everything I own that they'd have done the same thing or very similar. Not excusing it, but don't think your point is relevant.

Edit..just seen Horlocks post in response to the above I've quoted. I agree with him.
« Last Edit: Friday, March 12, 2021, 14:57:20 by Arriba » Logged
Berniman
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« Reply #11185 on: Friday, March 12, 2021, 14:57:36 »

The last couple of pages have reminded me as to why I try to stay away from this thread, especially when it's gets to the name calling school ground stuff.

And I have voted for Labour and conservative over the past 3 or 4 elections based on their policies at the time..
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“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.” ― Marcus Aurelius

When somebody shouts STOP! I never know if it's in the name of love, if it's HAMMER TIME, or if I should collaborate and listen...
chalkies shorts

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« Reply #11186 on: Friday, March 12, 2021, 15:15:51 »

No I'm sorry but this "Oooh, they're all as bad as each other" horseshit is how Trump got away with so much of his criminality and precisely what this govt is relying on in plumbing new depths of corruption and assaults on democracy. This is much worse than anything we have seen before, whether it's the blatant lying to parliament, the deliberate and continual flouting of the law, the assaults on the judiciary and freedom of the press, the attacks on the right to protest and the deliberate undermining of the concept of truth. Shit like this "Oooh, they're all at it" is what legitimises it all, and it's what they're relying on to keep getting away with it and pushing further still. Stop excusing it.
I'm not excusing it but trying to out it into context. I agree they're corrupt but so are big corporations etc. So are other countries governments. They are not one corrupt group of people in a world of virtue and goodness.
We can hold them to account at the next election. If they're not held to account then either the opposition have done a shit job or people don't give a fuck. If it's the latter it's still democracy in action. We get the government's we deserve.
You'd have thought given the levels of corruption it wouldn't be too difficult to hold them to account but it seems so.
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pauld
Aaron Aardvark

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« Reply #11187 on: Friday, March 12, 2021, 15:40:46 »

I'm not excusing it but trying to out it into context. I agree they're corrupt but so are big corporations etc. So are other countries governments. They are not one corrupt group of people in a world of virtue and goodness.
No-one is saying that. But we have laws for a reason. We have a parliament for a reason. We have an independent judiciary for a reason. Just throwing your arms up in the air and going "Oh, well they're all as bad as each other" normalises the excesses. Keep doing that and it undermines the rule of law and the foundations of democracy, and then you won't get the option to chuck them out at elections.
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chalkies shorts

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« Reply #11188 on: Friday, March 12, 2021, 15:46:05 »

No-one is saying that. But we have laws for a reason. We have a parliament for a reason. We have an independent judiciary for a reason. Just throwing your arms up in the air and going "Oh, well they're all as bad as each other" normalises the excesses. Keep doing that and it undermines the rule of law and the foundations of democracy, and then you won't get the option to chuck them out at elections.
I apologise for undermining the rule of law and the foundations of democracy.
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pauld
Aaron Aardvark

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« Reply #11189 on: Friday, March 12, 2021, 15:50:44 »

I apologise for undermining the rule of law and the foundations of democracy.
Again, not saying that. But you know that. OK so you're happy with (or at least complacent about) a govt that normalises corruption, undermining the rule of law, and attacks on the judiciary because other govts have been a bit shit. What I'm saying it's dangerous to be complacent about this, that it's different from the being shit that we've seen before and that what they're doing fundamentally undermines the mechanisms you're relying on to hold them accountable. It is not Conservatism, it is Trumpism.
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