Let's Get Political!

[pauld]

That's not true. Antifa is just a name, you can oppose the way they conduct themselves and/or doubt that they really do embody the values that the name suggests that they do. That wouldn't make you a fascist. That would just make you unconvinced they represent who they say they represent
 

Etymologically speaking yes. But all the people I have seen describing themselves as "anti-antifa", it's just a case of simplifying the fraction.

[pauld]

Out of interest, how would you describe anyone who is opposed to the Democratic Republic of North Korea?

Perfectly sensible. I get where you're going, you can't rely on people's self-description, of course you can't. Hence the common trope of "The Nazis were really socialists" which is bollocks. But that applies similarly to "anti-antifa" - scratch the surface and you find far-right.

[chalkies shorts]

That's not true. Antifa is just a name, you can oppose the way they conduct themselves and/or doubt that they really do embody the values that the name suggests that they do. That wouldn't make you a fascist. That would just make you unconvinced they represent who they say they represent
 

No grey areas are allowed any more. If you're not for something then you're against it. Actually, if you're not vocal in support of something, you're against it. That's the age we live in. Everything is dichotomous.
It's easier that way to demonise and label those with different opinions.No need to try and win any arguments when the opposing view is held by idiots.

[Hunk]

Etymologically speaking yes. But all the people I have seen describing themselves as "anti-antifa", it's just a case of simplifying the fraction.

I expect an awful lot of people are deeply unimpressed with what they know about antifa. I'm not an expert, far from it, and I'm willing to be educated on the good that they do. But I've seen them involved in way too many violent protests to just assume that because they call themselves anti-fascist they really are.

[Hunk]

No grey areas are allowed any more. If you're not for something then you're against it. Actually, if you're not vocal in support of something, you're against it. That's the age we live in. Everything is dichotomous.
It's easier that way to demonise and label those with different opinions.No need to try and win any arguments when the opposing view is held by idiots.

Completely agree

[RedRag]

Perfectly sensible. I get where you're going, you can't rely on people's self-description, of course you can't. Hence the common trope of "The Nazis were really socialists" which is bollocks. But that applies similarly to "anti-antifa" - scratch the surface and you find far-right.

Think this all depends from where one's politics start.

Never heard of anti antifa but I would hazard a guess that they are the opposite of antifa.  far right v far left.

Most in the middle and even on the right are anti fascist but wary that antifa is much, much lefter than mere opposition to fascism.

Ditto my impression has been that right wing normally equals a belief in liberal capitalism.  Many unpleasant right wing movements can be more left wing in their economic beliefs, whilst authoritarian and certainly nationalist.  Such as Le Pen in France.

I think left and right can be social and economic and people can fall into different quadrants.

[Broadbents Tackle]

Perfectly sensible. I get where you're going, you can't rely on people's self-description, of course you can't. Hence the common trope of "The Nazis were really socialists" which is bollocks. But that applies similarly to "anti-antifa" - scratch the surface and you find far-right.

The problem with that is it has the same effect as saying everyone who voted brexit is a racist. It just pushes people away.

I've always been strongly anti-racist and anti-fascist, but I can't stand antifa or those who share similar ideologies(I'm not a fan of the word woke either, there's just no other group name for them). In fact, I think they are enemies of equality, albeit they come with good intentions.

[horlock07]

I've always been strongly anti-racist and anti-fascist, but I can't stand antifa or those who share similar ideologies(I'm not a fan of the word woke either, there's just no other group name for them).

Is there an ideology?

This seems to be falling into the trap much loved and peddled by the right wing media that suggests that Antifa (and similarly BLM and in fact at times ER (so basically any of the population they don't like)) is/are some sort of collective group with a leadership and set/chosen ideology, i.e. that they are some sort of collective organisation, they are not in any way, the are fluid loose collections of people who share similar ideals and objectives.

Sadly its become easier to just lump them all together as bad, like its become the fashion to suggest anyone who gives a shit about anyone else is 'woke', lazy stereotyping driven by the media, but sadly adopted which aids the ridiculous culture war narrative they desperately need.

[Broadbents Tackle]

Is there an ideology?

 

Belief in things like this, or other such theories that seek to define us by our differences rather than our commonalities.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

Maybe people are attacked and called woke simply for being alert to racism and social injustice, but that's not my experience of it. It's mostly confined to twitter and educational establishments, though it's becoming more prevalent in my opinion.

[pauld]

The problem with that is it has the same effect as saying everyone who voted brexit is a racist. It just pushes people away.

I've always been strongly anti-racist and anti-fascist, but I can't stand antifa or those who share similar ideologies(I'm not a fan of the word woke either, there's just no other group name for them). In fact, I think they are enemies of equality, albeit they come with good intentions.

I was talking about those who explicitly define themselves as anti-antifa, the likes of Andy Ngo. Obviously it's perfectly possible for people who aren't far right to have qualms about or be opposed to the methods deployed by groups describing themselves as antifa (or more often who are described by others as such).

[horlock07]

Belief in things like this, or other such theories that seek to define us by our differences rather than our commonalities.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

Maybe people are attacked and called woke simply for being alert to racism and social injustice, but that's not my experience of it. It's mostly confined to twitter and educational establishments, though it's becoming more prevalent in my opinion.

One would imagine that being alert to racism and social injustice becoming more prevalent would be a good thing.

[pauld]

I expect an awful lot of people are deeply unimpressed with what they know about antifa. I'm not an expert, far from it, and I'm willing to be educated on the good that they do. But I've seen them involved in way too many violent protests to just assume that because they call themselves anti-fascist they really are.

Who are the "them" you have seen involved? I'm guessing you've seen news reports or stuff on twitter showing people dressed in black acting violently who are then casually described as antifa whether or not they so describe themselves or are part of any active antifa group. There's no national or international "anitfa" organisation, any more than there is BLM, there are local groups who organise against fascism, some of whom call themselves antifa. But not every active anti-fascist corresponds to the stereotype, and not everyone you see behaving violently is necessarily the aggressor. It's one of the things the Proud Boys were very good at, violently attacking counter demos and getting their victims arrested. Famously, there were 8 anti-fascists demonstrating at a neo-Nazi rally in California who were attacked stabbed and vicsiouly beaten by fascists and then arrested and prosecuted by CHP. There was much of the same at the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" rally where an antifascist protestor was murdered by a Nazi terrorist - more anti-fascists than Nazis arrested that day and famously led to Trump's comment of "good people on both sides".

[Hunk]

Who are the "them" you have seen involved? I'm guessing you've seen news reports or stuff on twitter showing people dressed in black acting violently who are then casually described as antifa whether or not they so describe themselves or are part of any active antifa group. There's no national or international "anitfa" organisation, any more than there is BLM, there are local groups who organise against fascism, some of whom call themselves antifa. But not every active anti-fascist corresponds to the stereotype, and not everyone you see behaving violently is necessarily the aggressor. It's one of the things the Proud Boys were very good at, violently attacking counter demos and getting their victims arrested. Famously, there were 8 anti-fascists demonstrating at a neo-Nazi rally in California who were attacked stabbed and vicsiouly beaten by fascists and then arrested and prosecuted by CHP. There was much of the same at the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" rally where an antifascist protestor was murdered by a Nazi terrorist - more anti-fascists than Nazis arrested that day and famously led to Trump's comment of "good people on both sides".

I hear you and I’ll look deeper into it. I’m sure that there are those that label themselves as antifa but don’t condone the violence that I’ve, perhaps in my ignorance, come to associate with the word. And I am aware that they are considered a decentralised collective of people/groups who may have different ideologies but loosely unite under the same banner. For me, I’ve always been wary of labels as it’s too easy to be lumped in with the undesirables who share enough of your beliefs to unite under a banner but can also hold beliefs diametrically contrary to your own. I’m not sure what’s wrong with just calling yourself ‘anti-fascist’.

And yes, the news reports of black clad, face covered thugs is what I’m basing my opinion on. If they don’t represent what antifa means then I’ll be happy to change my views. Unfortunately for anyone labelling themselves as antifa there’s already quite a widespread perception of them as being involved in radical left wing, anarchistic unrest. Even if that perception is unfair, it’s still the perception.

Will do more research. Promise

[BambooToTheFuture]

...explicitly define themselves as anti-antifa, the likes of Andy Ngo.

Sorry had to point this out. I find it interesting and sadly ironic that Andy Ngo has a surname that quite literally is the acronym for Non-Governmental Organisation. Shame his "work" is anything but that. The tosspot.

[Broadbents Tackle]

One would imagine that being alert to racism and social injustice becoming more prevalent would be a good thing.

Yeah, because in the context of everything I've been saying that's clearly what I was referring to. What's the point.