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Author Topic: Garner Out  (Read 19622 times)
RobertT

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« Reply #60 on: Sunday, February 6, 2022, 03:00:46 »

Oh, and I'd take this over a season with Flitcroft at the helm every day of the week, and the fact Sheridan has another job is an affront to game itself.
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Pookemon

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« Reply #61 on: Sunday, February 6, 2022, 08:44:07 »


That's what makes it so frustrating we've been superb in many of the away games which makes the home form baffling and points to tactical decision making rather than suddenly becoming a bad team.

Our recent away form is also crap.   We've only managed 4 points away from home since the start of December, and the Colchester debacle was truly pathetic.

Brilliant win against Vale but they chose not to press us which was strange given the way they played here.
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Wobbly Bob

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« Reply #62 on: Sunday, February 6, 2022, 09:18:12 »

Garner out?
Not for me. Not a fan of manager churn, but that's the way of it these days.
A goodly number of football fans in general seem to have a "manager out" auto switch that comes on after 6 months or so regardless of circumstance.
Give him the time. We could still get promoted.

However, lose 5 or 6 on the bounce and it becomes a different matter and we find out what Clem is made of.
I suspect that he would stick and not twist, at least not for the remainder of this season anyway and into the next one as well.
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Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
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JBZ
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« Reply #63 on: Sunday, February 6, 2022, 09:20:50 »

I imagine the faithful will lose their sh*t if/when Scunthorpe win 3-0 and Grant scores a brace.
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RedRag

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« Reply #64 on: Sunday, February 6, 2022, 10:19:20 »

Garner out?
Not for me. Not a fan of manager churn, but that's the way of it these days.
A goodly number of football fans in general seem to have a "manager out" auto switch that comes on after 6 months or so regardless of circumstance.
Give him the time. We could still get promoted.

However, lose 5 or 6 on the bounce and it becomes a different matter and we find out what Clem is made of.
I suspect that he would stick and not twist, at least not for the remainder of this season anyway and into the next one as well.
This
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RedRag

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« Reply #65 on: Sunday, February 6, 2022, 10:19:37 »

Some fair criticism of Garner but some perspective.

We lost yesterday at home to a savvy L2 side on a very good run.  Shit happens.  The lack of game management all season has been disappointing in the extreme.  It seems we could so do with a Grant of the 2019-2020 vintage from the game management viewpoint.  Reed is the closest we have to that role.  A better footballer but less robust and less versed in the arts of shithousery.  That's what you get with youth in general.  That reliance comes from Clem with Garner selected as the conduit for Clem's policy.  Which we have seen operated before under Power with Cooper, then Williams.

We were prepared to expect a run like the one we are now enduring at the start of the season.  We have almost had to re-start our season again thanks to the vagaries of loan recalls, injury and an unforseeable Afcon absence.  Not Garner's fault.

Not blaming Garner - or even Conroy - but Conroy has gone right off the boil and with an equally slow Gladwin also starting, patient Garnerball has ossified.  Jojo's disappearance left us with a great no. 2 keeper - but Ward's brief January elevation disrupted us defensively and Garnerball itself.  Throw in "player of the 1/2 season" Jack Payne's injury absence and midfield has lost its drive and menace.  Reed and Payne are key to transition from defence to attack, especially away.  And Williams is the icing on the cake although not a 90' player imo.

The defensive trio of loanees look absolute quality too, with O'Brien winning/challenging for MOMs after a callow start.  Unconvinced by Barry up top and it looks like we may be forced into giving him game time.  Not Garner's fault.  Whatever qualities Barry may go on to show, holding up the ball to close a game out (alongside another lightweight attacker like McKirdy) is never going to work.

Let's scrap for what we can this month and then see what the squad can produce as it hopefully settles down again.  After our bonus start back in Aug/Sept, I think it would be pisspoor if we finish bottom half with the quality we enjoy.  It would be mental to sack Garner now.  The thread title is silly.  But the questions raised are entirely valid and are best re-visited at season end.
« Last Edit: Sunday, February 6, 2022, 10:35:38 by RedRag » Logged
Peter Venkman
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« Reply #66 on: Sunday, February 6, 2022, 10:35:19 »

I have doubts over him, Williamsesque doubts.

But it's too soon, and you do have to take into account we are restricted in budget.

So not yet, but I'm not hopeful of him proving my doubts wrong.

I think you have to give him until this time next year, as unpalatable as that may seem
Agreed.

If we got rid of Garner, we’d only end up with another coach with a similar CV.
Chorley would still be in charge of recruitment and Clems plan of wanting a young side would still happen.
Agreed.

Almost feels like we need an old dinosaur in as Garners #2
If not as number 2 at least get one in as an advisor even short term to help him through the trough.

Don’t get to many games but the general impression I’m getting is we’re trying to play a certain way rather than trying to win games of football. It’s frustrating to see us fail to adapt to the conditions and situation in front of us on a regular basis. What’s hard to tell is to what extent recruitment, tactics and individual errors are to blame. All are to some extent IMO
I feel the same way exactly.
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« Reply #67 on: Sunday, February 6, 2022, 10:51:22 »

We seem to be going backwards whilst all others around us are getting better. Speaks volumes.
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Posh Red
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« Reply #68 on: Sunday, February 6, 2022, 10:53:17 »

We normally travel to games with hope & some expectation.

Hope that our team will play well, put in a shift & get a result.

Expectations of this team disappeared a while ago, I now don’t expect us to get a result at home, I predicted we would lose 2-1 yesterday albeit I thought we would score a late consolation rather than take the lead.

The problem is that the hope is also now disappearing, and once that’s gone there seems little point in wasting time & money coming down to home games.

As for Garner, I don’t see the point of replacing him now.
We have a set of players that have been assembled to play his way.
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Peter Venkman
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« Reply #69 on: Sunday, February 6, 2022, 11:04:00 »

We normally travel to games with hope & some expectation.

Hope that our team will play well, put in a shift & get a result.

Expectations of this team disappeared a while ago, I now don’t expect us to get a result at home, I predicted we would lose 2-1 yesterday albeit I thought we would score a late consolation rather than take the lead.

The problem is that the hope is also now disappearing, and once that’s gone there seems little point in wasting time & money coming down to home games.

As for Garner, I don’t see the point of replacing him now.
We have a set of players that have been assembled to play his way.
Pretty much as I see it too.
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« Reply #70 on: Sunday, February 6, 2022, 11:07:24 »

Quote from: Posh Red

The problem is that the hope is also now disappearing, and once that’s gone there seems little point in wasting time & money coming down to home games.
.

This of course if amplified for those like you that travel a distance, but also true of fringe locals that put their money where their mouth is when things were so bad in the summer.

it is a worry, the honeymoon period is over for many
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Peter Venkman
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« Reply #71 on: Sunday, February 6, 2022, 11:09:46 »

Sorry for the long post but this is how I see it, I doubt many will agree but then they never do Smiley

I don't think getting rid of Garner would get us anywhere at the moment. Clem would still get in a man who wants to play passing attractive(at times) football and buy, nurture and sell young players, thats Clems remit he has admitted that already several times.

I have said since day 1 that Garner is not a manager, hes a development coach, his background is development of young players and is not tactically aware of what is needed in a cut throat results based league. He has come from a career as a youth/academy development coach, a job in which he has to be nice and get on with the young players, coach them and improve them to prepare them to get ready for the 1st team, a job he had some success with previously.

At academy level there is no pressure to get results, you just develop the players and even if you lose 3-0 week in week out your job is safe, you are under no pressure to learn how to learn game management, there is no impetus to need to change tactics to win games as the result is largely totally immaterial. He could lose every game but if he brought 1 player a season through to challenge for the 1st team then that would be considered success.

He has never had to learn tactical styles, he plays to a formula that wins some and loses some but in a way that means the players can at least pass a ball but relies on the youngsters having enough already in their locker to play the position that they do, it merely prepares them for playing in a team but necessitates no need to over coach them with tactics which is why many youngsters struggle when they come to lower league clubs, they dont have the footballing intelligence to take on tactics and the pressure of needing to get results as its all new to them.

I don't think its a coincidence that Garner is getting rid of most of the old guard as they can see we need results at the expense of pretty football, Grant wanted to win the ball at all costs, Garner didn't want that, he wanted a player who could pass a ball and maybe win a couple of challenges too not just a ball winner, which we can all see is blatantly missing in the team.

Garner has never had to learn how to manage a game, how many times have we been in the lead with 15 mins left and yet he makes what with foresight and hindsight are errors in substitution or doesnt know how to shut up shop. That is something badly needs addressing, being a league manager is 99% about results and not about about playing just an attractive style of football.

At an academy there is no danger that if you lose games then the academy will not suffer long term, in the league if you dont get results the entire club suffers with relegation or worse, the lower down the leagues the harder it is to get decent players, to get decent sponsorship and to attact fans, all of which will have an impact on the club financially, then you can get into the realms of overspending and take out loans and not repay then as Bury learnt and so nearly Power too.

Chesterfield, Notts County, Stockport, Wrexham, Grimsby and Southend were all well established league clubs with a history of plying their trade in much higher leagues but how they have dropped with poor on the pitch performances, its easily done with just one poor managerial appointment, look at us last season with Sheridan for instance, if he was removed in December I still feel we could possibly have survived in L1.

A couple of blatant faults for me have been - why go into a whole campaign essentially with a lone "front man"? yes we have "attackers" players who can play in a variety of positions but not as an actually front man. If Simpson or Davison got injured then we have zero actually striker options on the bench to change/improve us, that IMO is a fault of recruitment Chorley or Garner.

We have probably too many players who are very similar, McKirdy, Barry, Williams, Payne and JML so although all offer something a little different none have enough to change a game dramatically, that is a fault of recruitment Chorley or Garner.

We have a few underperforming players and all players have highs and lows but no single player is ever the reason for poor results, 1 player (for instance Conroy) makes an error then the other 10 players should make up for that by closing ranks and helping.

I have noticed we seem to have no "talkers" on the pitch, helping players out, I lose count of the number of times one of our players gets put under pressure in the middle of the pitch, or in front of our defence and we can all see 2 attackers pressing him yet he seems oblivious to any incoming players, nobody is telling him to get rid of the ball with a short pass, or put it into touch and all too often that player gets punished and often a goal results when often a simple call from a team mate may have made him more aware.

Anyway short term I think Garner needs extra help from an experienced manager to help him in the areas that we are obviously lacking, changing tactics, game management, better use of subs. Obviously he may not think he needs that help or be open to it, like Iffy and Big Ron a few years back but if a young manager doesn't feel he needs to learn then maybe he isn't cut out to be a manager?

Not just criticise Garner but encourage him to improve in his job in the areas that need it, oh and make him aware that his decisions ultimately have THE biggest bearing on fans/players/finances as the worse the results the less chance we will have of attracting better players, better sponsorship and ultimately more fans.
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Posh Red
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« Reply #72 on: Sunday, February 6, 2022, 11:28:05 »

I’m not going to quote it PV (it’s too bloody long to do that 😉) but I’d certainly agree with most of it.

I said to someone earlier this week about whether there is a Plan B.

The definition of madness is trying the same thing over and over when it doesn’t work, and that seems to be one of the problems with Garner, but I guess when you’ve built a squad that can only play one way.

Also, as you say it shows how lucky we were with Simpson that he played every game, but even then everyone highlighted that we needed someone to back him up. Obviously Davison isn’t quite as robust, and the lack of another option is clearly a problem now.

There was a suggestion that Barry could play that role, but having seen him a couple of times that’s not going to happen. He’s too lightweight and avoids the physical side of the game. The concern with him is the lack of effort.
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AMayesIng

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« Reply #73 on: Sunday, February 6, 2022, 11:32:26 »

Great post PV, with a lot of good points. However for me we are nowhere near 'Garner Out'; perspective needed as LL and CJ state above. We had NO SQUAD a few weeks before the start of the season, and have lost 3 key players from the team mid season with real challenges in replacing them. FFS. Even Pep would have a few issues in that situation.

Football fans have always moaned; and we're all gutted by recent performances; its part of what being a fan is. What's changed in the last (10/15?) years is that all the moaning gets amplified and reinforced by the instant communication and feedback loop of the Internet. Hence the shortened time that managers seem to get before they 'need to be sacked'. There are SOME situations where its valid (Sheridan for example) but we don't yet know if Garner will make it. Maybe he will, maybe he wont, but 1/2 way through a season with the challenges we've had is not the time to make a fair judgement.
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Jimmy HaveHave

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« Reply #74 on: Sunday, February 6, 2022, 11:42:51 »

Good post and pretty much how I see things. I think we got lucky that Simpson never got injured or suspended otherwise we would have struggled earlier and it's clear to all that we don't have any leaders on the pitch which you need to pull you through games when things aren't going well. I also think we need an older experienced Benson type player who was canny in the box, got goals and could help the younger players.

Garners ignorance or lack of ability to change things tactically will ultimately lose his his job maybe not this season but I'm sure Clem will take stock in the summer depending on how we finish.
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