Thetownend.com

home results- 3 wins in 14

Game management- non existent. Got caught out at Colchester and again today.

Tactics- non existent. No idea how to change a game or shut up shop to see it out

Football- at home boring, slow and predictable

No doubt a decent coach, but not a manager.

We are getting really good gates as well- probably won’t carry on a further season watching his drivel

Recommend we get rid of the embargo in the summer then bin him off. Can’t see him getting us up I’m afraid whatever the personnel

Cue usual suspects.  ::)

No backbone and no staying power. Be left to the likes of me and others to keep the club going again will it.

Too soon for me…but…he does need to demonstrate he has the want and ability to change things.

Different formations, different game plans, different styles of play, different recruitment.

It just all feels a bit samey every game and I can’t help but think that is by design and that makes it a poor design imo

Of course the usual thing with this - who would you replace Garner with?

I can't see the owner making a change.

Not management material, proved that just on the home performances. We're even starting to lose the away games.

Agree with that. He needs to work on his weaknesses in the same way any player would. My concern is that I'm not really sure he thinks they are weaknesses - he comes over very dogmatic in the press he does.

…and also, even with a manager other than Garner we’d still rely on loans (which I fucking hate but is a necessary evil at our level) and will always be at the mercy of them being recalled.

That has done is no favours and completely out of Garners control

He also needs to working on his motivation skills. Middlesbrough had no right to get a result last night at Old Trafford but never stopped running for 120 minutes and got their rewards.

Any decent manager wouldn’t have built a squad reliant on 1 striker but decided to pad it out with ‘attackers’.

He’s done a great job for Villa and Ipswich.

I have doubts over him, Williamsesque doubts.

But it's too soon, and you do have to take into account we are restricted in budget.

So not yet, but I'm not hopeful of him proving my doubts wrong.

I think you have to give him until this time next year, as unpalatable as that may seem

If we got rid of Garner, we’d only end up with another coach with a similar CV.
Chorley would still be in charge of recruitment and Clems plan of wanting a young side would still happen.

Yup. In a similar way that Luke Warm used to. Couldn't see the wood for the trees.

I'm not saying "Garner Out" right now but his position should start to be being questioned by his boss. A simple..."you need to start holding these leads and turning results around or I'm going to have to make a more difficult decision Bin"...who knows, that might already be happening?!

Certainly can't allow the season to drift from this position. Yep pre season we would all say "mid-table? yeah I'll take that" but as a season evolves and you see a route out of a division then of course the expectation raises. I'm sure this has to be similar for the owner/board as they'll be looking at potential budgets/monies amd targets if an expected projection starts to look more likely.

Right now, I feel even if he were to get Town out of the division I don'really think Garner would cut it in L1. Someone else said, he looks like he could be a great Development Coach at say Championship level but management is a totally different egg.

If he can recognise his weaknesses and not allow pride/stubbornness to get in the way then it's possible for BG to develop himself as a manager. At present he seems very fixed in his method with no desire to be flexible. Maybe he doesn't know how to be/can't do that without more time. Players will recognise this - especially the experienced few like Williams.

Ahh well, talking of eggs. Time to watch the last 15 in the Rugby. Let's see how England's game management is!

Almost feels like we need an old dinosaur in as Garners #2

I’m not garner out. Away wins are just as valuable as home ones, and I’d give him the benefit of the doubt that things will turn around

But I’m not fully convinced things will.

ooops

Don’t get to many games but the general impression I’m getting is we’re trying to play a certain way rather than trying to win games of football. It’s frustrating to see us fail to adapt to the conditions and situation in front of us on a regular basis. What’s hard to tell is to what extent recruitment, tactics and individual errors are to blame. All are to some extent IMO

I hate that this thread has started - but know, deep down, that he’s not the answer. All I know for certain is that watching us at home is boring.

Grrrr! Not att you - at England RFU. Although they've done well to keep it to just a 3pt deficit during a sin bin!

Interesting last 5mins. Next score wins it.

I’ve had a general understanding of where we’re at and the position we’ve been in… but the last few games have been piss poor. We look weak as piss and like we can’t see out a game. Fed up with the possession with no end product, can see a lot of fans being lost….

its about time Garner done a live phone in on BBC Wilts so fans can try and get their points across

Good lord no, the last thing anyone needs is a BBC Wilts phone in.  I can never remember hearing anyone sound even remotely intelligent.

Cooper's phone-ins weren't bad.  But "Shawnnnn" wasn't too gracious towards Clem on taking over. I think the Town would tell BBC Wilts to go "Waltzing Matilda", better option would be OSC, Monday Night.

BG clearly lacks any tactical nous.  Have no issue with having core principles, but the focus should be on winning games.   He's a good coach - he makes players better - but unless you win games, all you are doing is helping other teams.

More pragmatism is needed and he should analyse his own performance.  Accept and own your faults, stop blaming others and delegate if you have clear weaknesses.

He doesn't need to go but does need to learn fast - Garner is the weak link in this team and he needs to sort himself out.

Genuinely unfathomable to me how little tactical nouse and game management this team shows. Although when you consider he never played it at any decent level due to injuries, it possibly gors some way towards explaining it.

Firmly in the out camp, but considering he probably has another year left on his contract we'll probably let him stick around to fuck up next season as well.

During the Williams era I vaguely remember some guy from Gorse Hill ringing in and having a real go at Power and surprised he wasn't cut off.

Until the Court case, embargo and EFL decisions are known nothing will change with the ownership at the club and I also mean the off the field ownership as well as the academy manager.

My expectations have been adjusted somewhat given we have ended January undoubtedly weaker than when it started:

-We play 3-5-2 yet don’t have a recognised right wing back in the squad - KKH didn’t deliver too much in terms of assists but he got us up the pitch quickly and was an attacking threat. Hunt is a superb right back but not suited to the wing back role.

-Davison, on the early evidence is a downgrade from Simpson - he looks as Charlton fans told us, a reasonable link up man but lacking in any goal threat.

Is the above Garners fault - arguably not. The cynic in me recalls Clem or Angus remarking early season that if we were up there in January they’d consider paying off the EFL to release the embargo and allow us to strengthen sufficiently to get over the line for promotion. I do wonder if that was ever a genuine intention - not that I blame them given the mess inherited last summer. But I do think this season will be seen as an opportunity missed, especially if we lose the likes of Reed, Williams, JoJo in the summer.

Agreed. Just have to hope we can cobble together a play off push in the coming months, rather than a dead rubber of a second half of the season.

Why would the club ownership change? They’ve only just come in!

We won't be relegated this season, and I think that's remarkable considering the situation back in July.

Results might be a bit shit at the moment, but Garner needs time.

I find this particular threat distasteful and loath the conversations within. Imagine if the paying customers of YOUR business openly discussed YOUR performance on a public forum and called for you to be sacked?

That said this is the normal now for football at all levels, still repugnant and I’m not going to comment either way on Garner personally.

What I am prepared to say on the matter is this. We do not have the finances to buy our way to promotion in the league, I doubt we’d be able do it in league one if we manage a minor miracle and get promoted. We will have to seek out the free agents, cast offs of other clubs and loans from higher clubs, (no disrespect to our players intended, they are where they are otherwise they’d be in a higher league with a contract or even the PL). On the subject of loans which has been mentioned, to attract the cream of what is available to us in league two we IMHO have to play a certain way, hoofball, route one and anything like a lot clubs in our league currently do is not an option.

I see BG, BC, Clem and Aberdeen having a vision on what they want to do and how to do it. Sadly on our budget we have not been able to get the quality of players to do that. We will, just maybe not this season. FGR are not Brazil, MC, PSG or anything like that, after all we beat them away, only one of two teams to beat them I may add. What they are is consistent, a decent team for sure but consistent with what they do and how they do it. For us this season in some ways we have over achieved possibly, possibly not, personally I think we have certainly in some of the performances. There is something special going on at the CG, though maybe this season is not going to be one of those socks off seasons. Forget the ‘where we were’ supporters, we can put that to rest now. FFS we know where we were and we know where we are. Another mid season rebuild on top of and exceptionally brutal rebuild from the pyre ashes of the Pee Lower era.

Please don’t descend into the gutter on calling for BG head, not warranted, not one bit, for to do so you lump him into the pit with the likes of Sheridan, you think that’s fair? I fucking don’t. If the powers that be have faith in him then so do I. Even if I didn’t I wouldn’t air dirty laundry on someone’s job and lively hood on a forum. And some of you fucking have the cheek to ridicule the FB supporters..

Get a grip people, get a fucking grip. Please 🙄

Depends on who you define as the “owners” of the club.

So are you suggesting it isn’t Clem/Axis?

Agree we are not going down, far from it.
This season was always a free hit.
Nothing is going to change this we’ve all got to stick with it.

So I take it L-L you have never left a review or commented on the good or bad of a meal at a restaurant, a hotel, a tradesperson and so on as to whether or not they provided a good service or VFM?

Maybe you've never used TripAdvisor/TrustPilot or similar but I bet my bottom dollar you have publicly told other folk if a service you had paid for was utter shit.

People in private and public sector roles get judged by paying customers ALL the time for THEIR performance and yes this might even sometimes result in some people saying a certain member of staff should be sacked.

Football hasn't got some godlike protection. Get a grip Legends-Lounge, get a fucking grip. Please  ::)

The legacy of Power and Standing needs settling.

Indeed. Ghosts linger and incredibly so at Town...

Possibly the most sensible thing you’ve written on here

Nobody is throwing him in the Sheridan bucket. It’s not so binary that he is beyond criticism. He’s won 3 from 14. If we’re aren’t asking questions after that, then what do we aspire to? And as for resources, Sutton are chasing promotion - so with what we have, he can and should be doing better. It’s overly simplistic to make him immune from criticism because of what has happened over the last couple of years.

Garner out? Seriously? Have a fucking word with yourselves.


We are 8th in the league; not 8 points adrift. This is despite having half a dozen or so first team players a couple of weeks before the season started, no coaching staff and no proper pre-season.

On top of that we are working within a transfer embargo that limits what we can bring in. One hand is tied until that, EFL punishment and ownership issues are sorted.

We had a shit January with 3 top quality loan players recalled including one of our top goalscorers. So we have had to replace 25% or so of the side and are having to rebuild - the side needs to gel again.

Garner isn't the one setting the tone of young players we develop to sell or loans from higher league clubs that we will develop. That comes from Clem/Rob.

Yes we have been shit at home. It's fucking painful to watch at times.  Equally we have been pretty stellar away by and large.

Garner may turn out not to be the answer, but in my book he at least needs a fair crack at the whip. That isn't sacking him because we have dropped out of the play offs  If you get rid of Garner, whoever you bring in will be dealt the same shit hand. Would they fare any better?

The objective this season was survival.  We are way over that.

And Austin’s true involvement….

Why do you choose to ignore the other half of the season we have played - the away games?

I think no at the moment.As someone pointed out you get no more points for home wins. Can't think of anyone who we could possibly have got who would have us higher up the table with the hand he's been dealt.After today I'd be tempted to stick Tomlinson,who I've been told can play right or left, as a right wb and recall Iandolo on the left

Yes the objective was survival, and the way we started the season from such a standing start is to his credit, but the last 6 weeks has been atrocious.   That isn't just to do with player changes although that will clearly have an impact.

 I'm not saying he should go but I'd like to see him take some responsibility and stop blaming refs, the fixtures (as he did today) or the players dropping deep or not being good enough.   Garner is the one asking them to play risky football at all times, he's at fault for the environment where players are having a go at the ref and he is also at fault for some some shocking tactical decisions.

Go no but he should take a fucking hard look at his own performance.

Agree!  from my understanding he is a new manager at this level so he does need to learn and grow, just need to see that willingness as the team moves forward.

That's what makes it so frustrating we've been superb in many of the away games which makes the home form baffling and points to tactical decision making rather than suddenly becoming a bad team.

Yup. 100% agree with you.

i have not really looked at it closely but what does the coach do so differently in the away games than at home to make such a difference?  And if there is something, why would he do something different away vs home and then if it works away why not do it at home?  there must be reasons.

Genuine question; we keep talking about the embargo but do people really believe that even without it we would be much different? We’ve been sculpted to play a certain way with an obsession over attackers who aren’t strikers and I can’t believe that JoJo, McKirdy, Williams, Gladwin, Reed etc wouldn’t have been top targets anyway.

I’m genuinely not sure even without the embargo we’d actually be much different, maybe we’d have an actual striker of our own but I don’t think we’d actually be much different based on the way Garner talks and acts. I’m starting to feel the embargo excuse is largely irrelevant.

rode our luck a number of times away from home too- Salford and Newport immediately spring to mind as games we were very lucky to win. its just that away teams have to go for it a little more and give us space. were so easy to play against at home.

garner seems like a nice guy and a good coach, but this is mens football. need a proper man manager in charge with a pragmatic approach. cant see him being sacked this season, hopefully hes moved on in the summer- hes clearly useful and has a career in the game ahead of him, but he aint a manager.

tippy tappy nice passing with good XG stats is all well and good, but when its all said and done its a results business. give me shithouse hoofball with the ball barely touching the ground all day as long as we get out of this rancid league.

Probably not.
Didn’t he do the same thing at Rovers?

Pretty much, I’m starting to think the embargo is kind of irrelevant and shouldn’t be used as a defence.

Also potentially a controversial opinion but could it be having no preseason with him was actually an advantage? We started pretty well especially away from home, but as the season has gone on and he’s increasingly forced his style on the players we’ve actually become increasingly inconsistent. Obviously the heavier pitches and loan situation is a factor as well.

Think that might be a bit harsh.

To me it’s more like playing rock, paper, scissors every week and we always choose rock.

To start with the other people don’t know that so could play any of three.
After playing rock each time, the other person knows how to beat us; choose paper.

Once people are confident they can beat us with paper - that when we should get the scissors out but we won’t we’ll play rock again.

Good analogy.

I think there is a lack of flexibility overall in the game plans but I have noticed we have been a little bit better at mixing it up over past few games with occasional direct play or longer balls when appropriate.

Against Crawley I think we played very, very well for first 30 mins of the game and I don’t think the rest of the game was quite as bad as others made out, however it wasn’t great.

We create a lot of chances usually and there are fine margins between a massive win and a disappointing result. Against Crawley we had a hatful of early chances.

I watched the highlights of today’s game and it didn’t look like a disaster. We seemed to create a few chances. Their first goal was very good. I’m not convinced there was a massive deflection on their second and think JJW will be disappointed not to have saved that.

We do definitely need more sustained tempo to our play and I wish we would try this even if it means risking possession as that is how we are going to win games.

Given where we were pre season I don’t want to moan too much - things could be a lot worse!

I think some people are forgetting just how bad the football was under Sheridan. Garner needs to be given a bit of time.

When he first joined us Rovers fans all said he wouldn’t sign out and out forwards. Instead he had a philosophy of trying to develop young forward type players. It feels like he is doing the same again here.

Very true, where is Power these days? Seems to have fallen off the grid completely.

Obviously, they don't count. You don't need any tactical nouse or game management skills to win those games.

It's an interesting conundrum.  What would be the fans reaction to a team that won 23 at home but lost 23 away - 69 points being mid table?  I know that is not going to happen, but I presume such a Manager would get a lot of slack, maybe even have fans enthused much more so than our current situation.

While a Manager clearly should just be trying to win games, this was my thinking about whether or not someone at the top table might be tempted to have a flee in Garners ear a little here.  The approach he uses clearly has better results away from home but some glaring issues at home.  He may try and deny it, but we have seen it over enough games to determine patterns.  The style manages to achieve more chances away with teams more likely to try and attack.  At home, we have struggled when teams do one of two things - either press and harry us, knowing we are weak without the ball (Exeter, and was it Harrogate?) or sit and block the middle (Crawley, Bradford).  Garner seems intent to carry on regardless, should his boss be pushing for him to apply some changes at home?  I know football is a special beast, but poor performance would usually get a reaction from your Boss (be that guiding someone or telling them).

It's clearly not going to change though, Garner may not have a huge amount of experience, but we appear to be getting the same recipe that was used at Bristol Rovers, just with players he has chosen/been involved in choosing and at a lower level (so opposition is less likely to cope).  One thing seems clear to me - Reed is central (pardon the pun) to our season.  Without him we really do look a lot weaker, and I knocked him in his first game!  We are not going to suddenly be a better team without the ball, but without Reed we look a little rudderless with it.

Oh, and I'd take this over a season with Flitcroft at the helm every day of the week, and the fact Sheridan has another job is an affront to game itself.

Our recent away form is also crap.   We've only managed 4 points away from home since the start of December, and the Colchester debacle was truly pathetic.

Brilliant win against Vale but they chose not to press us which was strange given the way they played here.

Garner out?
Not for me. Not a fan of manager churn, but that's the way of it these days.
A goodly number of football fans in general seem to have a "manager out" auto switch that comes on after 6 months or so regardless of circumstance.
Give him the time. We could still get promoted.

However, lose 5 or 6 on the bounce and it becomes a different matter and we find out what Clem is made of.
I suspect that he would stick and not twist, at least not for the remainder of this season anyway and into the next one as well.

I imagine the faithful will lose their sh*t if/when Scunthorpe win 3-0 and Grant scores a brace.

This

Some fair criticism of Garner but some perspective.

We lost yesterday at home to a savvy L2 side on a very good run.  Shit happens.  The lack of game management all season has been disappointing in the extreme.  It seems we could so do with a Grant of the 2019-2020 vintage from the game management viewpoint.  Reed is the closest we have to that role.  A better footballer but less robust and less versed in the arts of shithousery.  That's what you get with youth in general.  That reliance comes from Clem with Garner selected as the conduit for Clem's policy.  Which we have seen operated before under Power with Cooper, then Williams.

We were prepared to expect a run like the one we are now enduring at the start of the season.  We have almost had to re-start our season again thanks to the vagaries of loan recalls, injury and an unforseeable Afcon absence.  Not Garner's fault.

Not blaming Garner - or even Conroy - but Conroy has gone right off the boil and with an equally slow Gladwin also starting, patient Garnerball has ossified.  Jojo's disappearance left us with a great no. 2 keeper - but Ward's brief January elevation disrupted us defensively and Garnerball itself.  Throw in "player of the 1/2 season" Jack Payne's injury absence and midfield has lost its drive and menace.  Reed and Payne are key to transition from defence to attack, especially away.  And Williams is the icing on the cake although not a 90' player imo.

The defensive trio of loanees look absolute quality too, with O'Brien winning/challenging for MOMs after a callow start.  Unconvinced by Barry up top and it looks like we may be forced into giving him game time.  Not Garner's fault.  Whatever qualities Barry may go on to show, holding up the ball to close a game out (alongside another lightweight attacker like McKirdy) is never going to work.

Let's scrap for what we can this month and then see what the squad can produce as it hopefully settles down again.  After our bonus start back in Aug/Sept, I think it would be pisspoor if we finish bottom half with the quality we enjoy.  It would be mental to sack Garner now.  The thread title is silly.  But the questions raised are entirely valid and are best re-visited at season end.

Agreed.

Agreed.

If not as number 2 at least get one in as an advisor even short term to help him through the trough.

I feel the same way exactly.

We seem to be going backwards whilst all others around us are getting better. Speaks volumes.

We normally travel to games with hope & some expectation.

Hope that our team will play well, put in a shift & get a result.

Expectations of this team disappeared a while ago, I now don’t expect us to get a result at home, I predicted we would lose 2-1 yesterday albeit I thought we would score a late consolation rather than take the lead.

The problem is that the hope is also now disappearing, and once that’s gone there seems little point in wasting time & money coming down to home games.

As for Garner, I don’t see the point of replacing him now.
We have a set of players that have been assembled to play his way.

Pretty much as I see it too.

This of course if amplified for those like you that travel a distance, but also true of fringe locals that put their money where their mouth is when things were so bad in the summer.

it is a worry, the honeymoon period is over for many

Sorry for the long post but this is how I see it, I doubt many will agree but then they never do :)

I don't think getting rid of Garner would get us anywhere at the moment. Clem would still get in a man who wants to play passing attractive(at times) football and buy, nurture and sell young players, thats Clems remit he has admitted that already several times.

I have said since day 1 that Garner is not a manager, hes a development coach, his background is development of young players and is not tactically aware of what is needed in a cut throat results based league. He has come from a career as a youth/academy development coach, a job in which he has to be nice and get on with the young players, coach them and improve them to prepare them to get ready for the 1st team, a job he had some success with previously.

At academy level there is no pressure to get results, you just develop the players and even if you lose 3-0 week in week out your job is safe, you are under no pressure to learn how to learn game management, there is no impetus to need to change tactics to win games as the result is largely totally immaterial. He could lose every game but if he brought 1 player a season through to challenge for the 1st team then that would be considered success.

He has never had to learn tactical styles, he plays to a formula that wins some and loses some but in a way that means the players can at least pass a ball but relies on the youngsters having enough already in their locker to play the position that they do, it merely prepares them for playing in a team but necessitates no need to over coach them with tactics which is why many youngsters struggle when they come to lower league clubs, they dont have the footballing intelligence to take on tactics and the pressure of needing to get results as its all new to them.

I don't think its a coincidence that Garner is getting rid of most of the old guard as they can see we need results at the expense of pretty football, Grant wanted to win the ball at all costs, Garner didn't want that, he wanted a player who could pass a ball and maybe win a couple of challenges too not just a ball winner, which we can all see is blatantly missing in the team.

Garner has never had to learn how to manage a game, how many times have we been in the lead with 15 mins left and yet he makes what with foresight and hindsight are errors in substitution or doesnt know how to shut up shop. That is something badly needs addressing, being a league manager is 99% about results and not about about playing just an attractive style of football.

At an academy there is no danger that if you lose games then the academy will not suffer long term, in the league if you dont get results the entire club suffers with relegation or worse, the lower down the leagues the harder it is to get decent players, to get decent sponsorship and to attact fans, all of which will have an impact on the club financially, then you can get into the realms of overspending and take out loans and not repay then as Bury learnt and so nearly Power too.

Chesterfield, Notts County, Stockport, Wrexham, Grimsby and Southend were all well established league clubs with a history of plying their trade in much higher leagues but how they have dropped with poor on the pitch performances, its easily done with just one poor managerial appointment, look at us last season with Sheridan for instance, if he was removed in December I still feel we could possibly have survived in L1.

A couple of blatant faults for me have been - why go into a whole campaign essentially with a lone "front man"? yes we have "attackers" players who can play in a variety of positions but not as an actually front man. If Simpson or Davison got injured then we have zero actually striker options on the bench to change/improve us, that IMO is a fault of recruitment Chorley or Garner.

We have probably too many players who are very similar, McKirdy, Barry, Williams, Payne and JML so although all offer something a little different none have enough to change a game dramatically, that is a fault of recruitment Chorley or Garner.

We have a few underperforming players and all players have highs and lows but no single player is ever the reason for poor results, 1 player (for instance Conroy) makes an error then the other 10 players should make up for that by closing ranks and helping.

I have noticed we seem to have no "talkers" on the pitch, helping players out, I lose count of the number of times one of our players gets put under pressure in the middle of the pitch, or in front of our defence and we can all see 2 attackers pressing him yet he seems oblivious to any incoming players, nobody is telling him to get rid of the ball with a short pass, or put it into touch and all too often that player gets punished and often a goal results when often a simple call from a team mate may have made him more aware.

Anyway short term I think Garner needs extra help from an experienced manager to help him in the areas that we are obviously lacking, changing tactics, game management, better use of subs. Obviously he may not think he needs that help or be open to it, like Iffy and Big Ron a few years back but if a young manager doesn't feel he needs to learn then maybe he isn't cut out to be a manager?

Not just criticise Garner but encourage him to improve in his job in the areas that need it, oh and make him aware that his decisions ultimately have THE biggest bearing on fans/players/finances as the worse the results the less chance we will have of attracting better players, better sponsorship and ultimately more fans.

I’m not going to quote it PV (it’s too bloody long to do that 😉) but I’d certainly agree with most of it.

I said to someone earlier this week about whether there is a Plan B.

The definition of madness is trying the same thing over and over when it doesn’t work, and that seems to be one of the problems with Garner, but I guess when you’ve built a squad that can only play one way.

Also, as you say it shows how lucky we were with Simpson that he played every game, but even then everyone highlighted that we needed someone to back him up. Obviously Davison isn’t quite as robust, and the lack of another option is clearly a problem now.

There was a suggestion that Barry could play that role, but having seen him a couple of times that’s not going to happen. He’s too lightweight and avoids the physical side of the game. The concern with him is the lack of effort.

Great post PV, with a lot of good points. However for me we are nowhere near 'Garner Out'; perspective needed as LL and CJ state above. We had NO SQUAD a few weeks before the start of the season, and have lost 3 key players from the team mid season with real challenges in replacing them. FFS. Even Pep would have a few issues in that situation.

Football fans have always moaned; and we're all gutted by recent performances; its part of what being a fan is. What's changed in the last (10/15?) years is that all the moaning gets amplified and reinforced by the instant communication and feedback loop of the Internet. Hence the shortened time that managers seem to get before they 'need to be sacked'. There are SOME situations where its valid (Sheridan for example) but we don't yet know if Garner will make it. Maybe he will, maybe he wont, but 1/2 way through a season with the challenges we've had is not the time to make a fair judgement.

Good post and pretty much how I see things. I think we got lucky that Simpson never got injured or suspended otherwise we would have struggled earlier and it's clear to all that we don't have any leaders on the pitch which you need to pull you through games when things aren't going well. I also think we need an older experienced Benson type player who was canny in the box, got goals and could help the younger players.

Garners ignorance or lack of ability to change things tactically will ultimately lose his his job maybe not this season but I'm sure Clem will take stock in the summer depending on how we finish.

The problem with JJ’s perspective is that, whilst relying on young loan players, Garner is just improving them for other clubs to cash in on. We’ll get nothing from whatever Ipswich get for Simpson. Well no doubt improve Tomlinson, O’Brien and Cooper to a level where their parent clubs will play them or they’ll sell them on for a fee.

Unless we can utilise these players to improve our own status it’s a pointless exercise.

loans are a difficult one, I think the days of building your own squad over a couple of seasons are long gone unfortunately.

But if the core aren't your. own it puts us at risk of leaving us in the place we are now. mid season rebuild

in fairness JoJo, Conroy, AK, iandolo, lyden, Williams, gladwin and mckirdy are this year's core, but it arguably hasn't quite worked out

I get what you saying and there is no doubt Garner was bought it by Clem because of his background in football.

However, I don’t think the issue with us or Garner is having the core values/principles that we have installed and I think we all accept we will get mixed results from that and definitely get a mixed bag of loan players.

The issue is the lack deviation from the core values/principles

For example, yesterday if we had gone ugly, route one, silly fouls, kicking it in row z for 15 minutes in order to win the game I don’t think anyone would have minded. Aston Villa won’t all of a sudden recall Barry and never loan us another player again because we played ugly to see a game out (if anything part of the reason for getting these players out on loan in the lower leagues out of U23s football is to learn these types of things) Cooper & JOB aren’t going to demand to back because they were asked to boot the fuck out of it for 10 minutes.

First we distinguish whether this ‘one way and one way only’ is coming from the top down to Garner or whether it’s Garners choice. Then it’s working out if Garner has ability to change or whether he doesn’t want to change.

If we don’t want to change - we’ll never move forward.
If we want to change but Garner doesn’t have the ability too - he’ll be gone before the year is out.

It’s not like we need to rip up the book and start again, we just need to write an extra chapter.


Garner isn’t the only former U23 manager in a first team managerial position. Few years back Blackpool appointed the Liverpool’s u23 manager (or some youth position) but I bet they don’t play like we do, all the time…

Absolutely agree on this.

On the Blackpool part though....after about 3 months in charge many Blackpool fans were calling for Critchleys head saying they were 1 dimensional and too easy to beat and that he was making weird substitutions and an unwillingness to change his brand of football.

Apparently though he learnt his lesson and they are no longer like that and as we all know were promoted last season.

…and this is exactly what we need from Garner.
Growth and learning on the job.

Fucking soapy tit wank.

Agree. The embargo and a few different players doesn't change the fact Garner keeps making the same mistakes and doesn't learn.

Another frustrating day at the County Ground. To be fair Exeter just about deserved their win on the balance of play but it's the nature of the defeat that hurts, particularly after the recent debacle against Colchester.

Our enforced subs didn't help at all. We lost control of the middle of the park and had no one up front to hold the ball up. Iandolo has been used in midfield before, but East is more used to that role and was the obvious replacement for Lyden. Also Barry may well turn out to be a decent player, but he is no replacement for Davison. Mitchell-Lawson at least has pace and that could have been useful against Exeters central defenders.

We spent the first half of the season hoping that Simpson didn't get injured and we got lucky in that respect. Surely we had to recruit 2 strikers similar in style in the window, once Simpson got recalled. In that respect Barry to me seems like a waste of a loan.

I know Gladwin gets bucket loads of abuse from fans, but he was nowhere near as bad as Williams yesterday. He really got on my nerves, falling down after virtually every challenge. He has a good fleeting 5-10 minutes every now and then but he simply doesn't offer enough to be a regular starter. He has underperformed for an established international player. I wonder if fitness is still an issue with him as he appears to offer little in the last 20 minutes of games.

I thought O'Brien and Cooper looked assured at the back, won most of their headers and both were very good in possession. However looking back at the highlights, Cooper appeared to be at fault for both goals, his header straight to the Exeter player for the 2nd was very weak indeed.

Tomlinson was obviously the star performers, he looked quicker in thought than everyone else and his passing was crisper. He will be a real asset and has to start ahead of either Hunt or Iandolo.

Knowing Swindon we will probably win at Tranmere on Tuesday to re-ignite the hope.

It’s the hope that kills you

But your right, it would be typical of us to win at Tranmere, and then fail to beat Scunthorpe at home

We need to be more of a threat from set pieces as we've nobody you can say is a real threat from set pieces and muck in with a handful of goals.

Steve Cooper would be a good benchmark for Garner, same age, hardly played professional football, good coach and doing wonders with a young team including loan players

God I hope BG doesn't read this shite. One of the most promising coaches in the Country, I think we are lucky to have the guy.

Perhaps he would benefit from a more experienced assistant to work with him on some of the darker arts of the game around game management etc 

Rome wasn't built in a day FFS. You all remember the bit a few months ago when we not sure we would even have a club?

Reading some of the shite spouted on here it seems some people would be happier with Joey fucking Barton. Twats

There's also quite a lot or support for Garner who just want him to be more tactically aware and to change things when needed.

I hope he does, there are some valid points

Fans will be fans and if he's that sensitive he isn't going to get very far.

Yeah fans will be fans, and these are the same fans that would be demanding loyalty from the manager if we did go up this season and other offers came his way. Fickle fuckers.

yes, we are fickle fuckers. totally agree. it's unfair. But it is what it is

I am surprised this thread exists so soon, but here we are

I supposed that is why I am saying I hope he doesn't read the forum. We are 8th, have had some of most promising players recalled and he's dealing with all the stuff he's dealing with, and people are calling for his head. Ridiculous.

He's building something here. Like I say I think he would benefit from a Steve Coppell type advisor maybe.
The Watford approach won't work in league 2.

If memory serves me right didn't Andy King get Steve Coppell in to help when we had defensive Issues🤔

Please, in the name of God can we move on from this...

Pointless thread

do you know what i reckon we do! we have players that can whip in a quality dead ball and we have some commanding centre backs now- a 3 yard short free kick wont help them score from them though!

That's one of the problems with a manager that won't change!

can we do better than garner, probably not.
can garner do better, yes.

The problem we have for this season is that we are now in too deep. we need a focal point for our attacks end of.
but we can't sign anyone now (bar a miracle out of contract signing) so this is it for the rest of the season. we needed davison as cover for simpson, as soon as simpson went we needed another davison type as cover.

the last 2 home games we have crumbled after davison went off. thats no suprise for me. if we dont have the players for the system then garner needs to find a solution and experiement. stop doing the same things over and over again and complain at the same results happening over and over again.

to add, garner is not beyond criticism. this season is not a free pass, we are allowed to discuss his faults.

if one person writes yh but we nearly went out of buisness, yh but we have an embargo, yh but we had no players 2 weeks before the season...

we have some quality players! players that most clubs in this league would love to have signed. we are far from a terrible team but the weaknesses that we do have can be fixed. so it would be nice to try and see some progress on these weaknesses. 

Interesting - on what basis? (Not disagreeing or agreeing, just interested to hear how he’s one of “the most promising coaches in the country”)?

Yeah what a non-issue, has no relevance to the situation we are in does it?  :no:

The problem with Garners way is that the football is slow & turgid most of the time, so if you aren’t getting results you end up with a lot of people who are getting more and more frustrated & disappointed with what’s being served up.

We are still getting good crowds at the moment, but the concern must be that people who have bought a season ticket this year will not bother next year, which will impact the quality of players we can attract.

Certainly has no relevance to the issue being discussed i.e. is Garner up to it...

Maybe someone can create a poll😀

I'm not ITK but I've read a couple of articles pointing out his time managing youth set ups at premier league clubs, being Mournio's "protege"
and according to said articles he is widely respected throughout the game - whatever that means.  

Well it clearly is isn't it because to some extent his hands have been tied due to the situation the club found itself in during the summer?

Not disputing what your saying but Williams was linked with Villa when he was coach here under Cooper

Like Luke Williams was…

A good coach doesn’t equate to being a good manager though. Even if what you said was true about him being one of the most promising coaches in the country it is a completely different job to being a manager.

A coach, especially a youth or development coach have a development plan and follow that regardless, they have a ‘process’ and to an extent molly coddle players. A manager on the other hand needs to be adaptable, make hard decisions, have an air of authority about them and most importantly be a leader. Being a good coach is an entirely different job to managing a team.

I would imagine that there are plenty of managers in L2 who would give their right arm to be able to bring in the players that Garner has been able to bring in. I would say his hands have been tied a lot less than most other managers at our level...Jonny Williams? Ben Galdwin? Louis Reed?

But in any case, as I said before this isn't what we're talking about. I really, really dislike Garnerball*. It's deeply flawed as far as I am concerned (I look forward to being proved to be hopelessly wrong but I don't think I will be) and I really don't like how Garner dresses things up when we can all see we've been shit. There are lots of other aspects of his management which I really don't like but I don't want to go into a 'war and peace' length of post now...

*That doesn't mean I want us to start playing like Cambridge Utd c.John Beck 1992 (just thought I would pre empt the 'get it forward' comments)...

Even the OP goes on to state he isn't asking for his head right now - are there really that many voices calling for his head?  I don't see it.  Lots of questions being raised about his potential future as a Manager vs Coach.

He is clearly very good at what he does, or has done.  He certainly took a team rushed together after a season of turgid shit and created a footballing team with a clear identity.  That takes something.  I think I did call out that I felt he would not go on to have a great career as a Manager, and I did so when we were winning.

Come on you can't leave it there you're going to have to finish off the dismantling of the Mans management credentials.

oh and add a little something as to your experience at the role that makes you right and him wrong.

Might help me vote when the pole is put up

That's a ridiculous argument...none of us have any managerial experience in the football league so I suppose that puts him above any criticism in your book. Similarly, none of us have played the game at a remotely decent level so we can't criticize any of the players either. On that basis, straight away the TEF becomes null and void.

I hate the way we're playing and it's not going to change under Garner...simple as that.

That's my unqualified opinion. I hope it turns out to be wrong...I don't think I am, we'll see...

The only negative thing I can say about Venks post was that he went just a bit too Bamboo...  :hmmm:

I am profoundly overjoyed you found my post amusing and clearly enjoyed reading my well rounded post. On a separate note and on the eve of my FIL funeral it has reinforced my belief that the world is full or retarded cunts who shouldn’t get anywhere near a keyboard and that he is in a better place.

Please don’t get excited about your in depth, well thought out comment on my OP, I expected that kind of response from a number of posters, not surprisingly you were on that predictable list.

If you get a stiffy from getting a rise from cyberspace knock yourself out and knock one out. You actually put a smile on my face at your predictability. Rather like the comments on the Advertiser stories, same old shyte from the same old shyte.

Why am I bothering? One has to use the time it takes to bake the sausage rolls for the finger buffet. If you’d like to try some let me know i’ll send you the details of the wake and can put some aside for you. There goes the timer on the last batch.

L-L whether you read/absorb this response or not - it is one with sincerity.

Whilst I'm sure many share my condolences in the incredibly difficult time of your FiL passing, especially to those you love and care about the most...it is also quite obvious that the post you made was quite a dramatic one. You seemed to write in a way that excused football professionals from criticism and it was a post vehemently at length enough possibly in attempt to further enforce and convince others of your stance.

We all have the privilege of the freedom to put pen on to paper or fingers onto keyboard and we also have to accept (something I have admittedly struggled with and have worked on improving) that many others also have this privilege too; sometimes those freedoms and values won't quite match, sometimes they will and other times never overlap at all.

We (you and I) certainly have our differences and values in opinion - very much in regard to your recent reply that i'm referring to here. However, I've also stated in the past on here that whilst many can have their differences I am also a firm believer that (STFC aside) we will all share some common ground in different areas and interests of our lives. Our very privileged lives. I know that you and I also have some shared interests too. I'm sure you do with CWIG and many more.

I can understand you're in a relatively emotional place right now and other distractions are possibly helpful - maybe even having a go at people on the TEF (just for disagreeing with yourself) is a part of your own process and distraction...I don't know it's only an educated guess on my part. We all allow anger to override us at different times.

It's also easy to get a little disillusioned with ALL of the world when there are times of personal difficulty/stress/worry/weight of the family etc going on. Everyone isn't really "retarded cunts", true there are some difficult folk around and even if you think I'm a cunt, I can't be that bad a cunt otherwise I wouldn't be writing this. Would I? I know there are certain people here who genuinely dislike me and have directed the very kind of cunty behaviour you might be referencing and nope not just "someone being mean" - I mean genuine online hate and slanderous behaviour directed personally at me - which of course isn't an experience I wish anyone to have to go through, not even they.

People might think I'm being condescending in this post but this is not true. My sympathies for your family and yourself are sincere - I'm sure others will reflect that too. I hope that you can all give your FiL the most wonderful dernier voyage to somewhere beyond the realms of human existence as we know it.

Finally, for Chalky White to both knock himself out and knock one out...he would have to knock one out first before knocking himself out...otherwise copulating with his hand could be quite a troublesome task whilst unconscious, unless some form of combined REM and re-animation took place :)

I'm sure the sausage rolls will be pretty banging and be revered between friends and family amongst all the sadness, reflections and memories. Homemade ones always are... I'm a big fan of a decent sausage plait too, which we all know is just a bloody giant sausage roll really and equally tasty. I'm sure you bake a good one of those too!

Take care L-L. I'll leave you with this:

'Whilst we can't always agree,
Life would be boring if it mirrored me!
There's a saying somewhere,
I think it came from a visionary!

"Making bread is easy as can be,
Let the dough do the work - not thee"
Like any good dough, let it relax, let it be.
Be more like the dough - can you see?!'

:)

I think Garnu has been bought in with a long term philosophy rather than an instant result game idea, with the start there'd be no point getting rid of him now.

If we accept that philosophy idea there'd be no point getting rid of one anywy.

We'd have to change the lot and get in Lawrie Snachez and Barryh Fry or something

One final point. After the summer we had and what not the atmosphere at the CG should have been bouncing but instead it’s probably the quietest it has ever been. That in itself suggests there is an issue with how we play, supporters need to be able to engage with the game and at the moment that’s just impossible. We’ve never had the greatest home atmosphere but it’s never been as morgue like as this either. I think we’ve only scored 4 first half goals at home all season which says it all, supporters are just getting bored into submission!

Pretty much the point I was getting to in my overly wordy post.

:)

An interesting thread and to be fair some excellent points being made, both positive and negative. It certainly beats the frankly dull and monotonous Facebook/Twitter posts where it appears that humans that have been injected with a vaccine that reduces your IQ to single digits in some kind of weird scientific experiment have been let loose on the internet.

Perhaps I am a masichist, but I strangely like what we are trying to do on the pitch. There are a lot of things we are doing right. You don't get players the calibre of Reed, Gladwin and Jonny Williams etc if you aren't being seen as a progressive football club. The challenge Garner has is to utilise those players in the best way. Clem and Angus have set out their plan and to be fair we are probably ahead of the curve. To be fair, getting to the third round of the FA Cup for the first time in ages, and in a position in the league where we are in good shape to get promoted shows it's not all doom and gloom. I do think Garner has tried to tweak the way we play in order to go a bit longer if needed, that's pretty clear.

That said, on the evidence of this season, Garner does appear to lack any additional plans. I am not sure how long this takes to implement but it does seem like the way we play is very rigid. At home it's too negative in my eyes and whilst it seemed to be perfect away from home, that form has slipped also. Obviously the player turnover was a challenge and we do look a little disjointed at the moment. I'm hoping that we will be able to pick up enough points in a busy February to stay in touch.

Overall, a mixed bag but I would like to see more patience shown and a willingness for Garner to learn from mistakes. His stubbornness does seem like something that might hold us back.

You've got no argument against the tactical mistakes he keeps making though, have you? Rome wasn't built in a day but they didn't keep knocking the cunt over through negligence and having to start again either.

Everyone else can see the problem, but Garner can't and if he isn't getting it by now then its extremely worrying. No one wants Joey fucking Barton but this is shite and the criticism is totally deserved.

I'm amazed that people think that manager/performance criticism means you're not thankful for what happened in the summer, like they're somehow mutually exclusive. Fucking tiresome.

So you're in support of closing this forum down then if none of our opinions even mean anything? Why did you sign up in the first place?

Just going to point out that currently Joey Barton has a better win percentage as a manager than Ben Garner does.

Do with that information as you please

Jesus wept. State of this.

TBF Redbuck has a track record for ignoring other peoples opinions or saying they are worthless.

If nothing else from this thread, I really enjoy the colorful swearing adjectives of you lads!!!   :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: 
but my wife is not pleased I have included them in my own vocabulary since becoming a Town follower. :clap:

To be fair, it's good to see the forum return to this type of squabbling about the manager rather than the threat of the club going out of existence.

I always thought a hummer was a vehicle. Surprised to find out it’s got a life of its own!

TBH   wish I owned the first and was getting the second  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

What makes me laugh is when we were doing well on the pitch and top of league two, but we clearly had an absolute crook running the club, a large section of our fan base didn't want to hear about the Lee Power strain of cancer running through the club and just wanted people to focus on the stuff on the pitch.

Now we have a an owner that enables us to do just that and as soon as we have concerns about the management on the field, people can't shut up about the completely unrelated off the field management as a reason to stop moaning about the manager.

Why were the same people so clueless about off the field matters when that was the negative aspect and yet most important thing happening at the club?

You've got to ask yourself if you just like burying your head in the sand when it comes to any form of negativity no matter how valid. If this is you and you didn't like people moaning about Lee Power and also don't like people moaning now about Ben Garner, then look up the term toxic positivity. There is a high chance you suffer from it.

If we had been bumbling along in mid table all season swapping a few away wins for home wins no-one would be questioning Garner.

Expectations have risen from the start of the season both from the team performance, increased support and our financial position. Garner has also made a rod for his own back by the team being in the top 7 most of the season.

Having said that if you get a chance of promotion you need to take it and be ruthless when needed. That means you're open to more scrutiny on tactical decisions.

I just hope there is not a view in the club because we are ahead of where we expected that missing out is OK. Next season, we might not recruit as well, get more injuries or have bigger budget opponents. Look how many attempts FGR have had at getting to League 1 with their budget.

In the last 20+ years we've had better squads that missed out on promotion because they fell short at crucial times. Hope this isn't another one.

If we don't go up, there is going to be as big a turnover of players as there was last summer, albeit with more flexibility with regards to budget and targets.  The management team had a free pass this season with regards to the players that they brought in due to the restrictions and where we were, and to be fair they have done very well.

That free pass will be gone and the goodwill will not be as free flowing this summer though, unless we are a league above.  So if they think that missing is OK this season, they had better be prepared for the expectation levels next season, because if we don't start well this current conversation about Garner is going to repeat pretty early next season.

Next season might see the realistic prospect of a points deduction, that’s the elephant in the room. Then it will be a case of prioritising results over pretty football as our league status will depend on it.  If we are put in that position then there is no way Garner would be the right man for the job.

good grief, I'd forgotten all about the prospect of a points deduction

Why do you go to football? Genuine question because it doesn't seem like you enjoy anything about it

Have you ever been to a home game?  :)

It's a simple enough question, but probably not one anyone should give much thought to themselves, unless they wish to get depressed about life choices.

Pretty much this.

Like any addiction it’s a waste of money and bad for your health but a hard habit to kick! Currently football is a good day out spoilt by the football when it comes to home games but occasionally you get a good season where it all comes together. There’s no point beating around the bush and making excuses pretending everything is rosey when it isn’t, call a spade a spade.

You defo channelled your "inner Smeeton" there   :D

Is there really a prospect of a points deduction? I am not too convinced. How long do you give a manager? Given that we are under embargo but still 8th in the league, reached FA cup 3rd round and had about 7 players soon before season started I think we are doing okay. The game management has been poor and we have lacked the change of game plan (until last few games) but we have also done very well away from home and have a few exciting players (neither of which are a product of chance in my opinion). I would say that while the manager is new to his trade and undoubtedly not perfect, we need to give him a chance.

Just me opinion but I’d give Garner as a minimum the majority of the calendar year.
If he’s still showing the same lack of growth / change as he is now & as a football team we are still making the same mistakes and showing the same naivety - I’d get rid in December in order to get someone in to assess the squad and have the January window.

I'll put it here rather than anywhere else.....
I'm disappointed that we don't have a second central striker. We were lucky that Simpson didn't get injured in the first half of the season and therefore didn't need replacing. Davison, on the other hand, may be a bit more fragile and/or the time of year might be causing issues.

The bottom line is that we don't have a similar alternative.

Now, for me, the jury is still out on whether Davison is good enough. At present, I can see that he heads the ball better than Simpson, but his movement and understanding with McKirdy is poor. Furthermore, his finishing has so far been dreadful.

I was quite interested to hear Garner say that he has decided not to get a free-agent striker in and not to send Parsons back out on loan. While I'm disappointed with the first statement, I'm intrigued to see how the second one plays out.

In preseason and a couple of games earlier in the year, I was quite impressed with Parson's movement and understanding with McKirdy. He didn't take up similar positions, but instead, worked with him to make and exploit space.

So, while Davison is fragile, I would stick Parsons on the bench and bring him on to run around up top for 15-20 mins if Davison has to come off. Now I know Parsons isn't a big striker, but he is more physical and puts himself about a bit more than other options.

Bottom line is I'm trying to think of a way to do the best with what we have got in that position.

Before the season started Garner said he didn’t want to bring in striker(s) in on loan that would hinder Parson’s progress. Maybe he should have gone through with that. For one of our own 19 year olds to be down the pecking order behind an imported 19 year old must be a bit soul destroying.

If this season is a bit of a free hit, then playing Parsons has no downside.

Crap style of play
Boring to watch
Poor discipline on and off the field
Never learning by our mistakes
3 wins in 15 games

A decent man manager would have us top 3 with our squad

Get Garner out now- or watch ST sales plummet. Had enough of watching this utter shit- 8 hour round journey for this pile of wank

Renewals won't be long in being advertised. I'd imagine many will considering their options.

Sent from my XQ-AD51

How many people have genuinely not renewed season tickets based on the manager? Or style of football, ever?

You don't think people not renewing based on this style of football is a real prospect?

Is that really that hard to believe?

Who on earth supports Swindon based on style of football?

I don't think they'll drop off a cliff .

but they may be normalised

it's the floaters that'll get flushed

They will go if the team ain't winning

Well yeah exactly that but they are much more likely to be picky choosy pay on the dayers than season ticket holders…

We're not talking about someone changing their team. We're talking about someone considering laying out best part of 400 notes and then thinking "nah, actually, fuck that".

Even more so after the energy hike and general cost of living rocketing.

We didn’t renew ours when Rikki & the Scouser were here.
Not only that, we didn’t go to another game until he was sacked.

Especially when it costs £1k a year (or more) to travel down for games.

If there’s little or no enjoyment or pleasure to be had from watching the games, why would you shell out.

Will you be renewing yours?  :)

At some point during the 97/98 season (McMahon) me and Mrs Taylor both decided (independently of each other) that we could not be fucked to drive 2 hours plus M25 related hold ups every two weeks for a dull, grey, joyless experience ...an experience stemming directly from the manager / style of play - two things which are inextricably linked. We therefore did not renew the following summer. So that's 2 emphatic yes's...

Edit: Reading back, pretty similar to Posh's point. Although we didn't specifically say, "we're not going again until McMahon/Hunt are gone"...we just weren't going to commit to every home game (although we probably didn't go to many more games while McMahon was in charge)

it's definitely a lot easier only dragging yourself across Swindon.

I'll be renewing 2 of the 3 of my season tickets for that reason. But totally understand those that don't

Definitely not Garner out from me. I get the frustrations from fans. We definitely overplay it at times and it's like watching academy football but it isn't a bad philosophy to have. The biggest issues for me are losing the players we have for the various reasons and others like Williams and Mckirdy getting found out.
This season was always about consolidation anyway, wasn't it?

I'm with you on the philosophy but I am sceptical that it can work that well in league 2. Now of course comparing our style of play with Man City is crazy, but their mantra isn't a million miles away from ours. But they play with tempo and also have the players that have the ability to take the ball in under pressure and use their touch and skill to get out of those tight situations, which then allows space to open up for them to utilise.

We don't play with anything like the same kind of tempo or 'danger'. It's all very simple, pass, pass, pass etc. Occasionally this leads to a great chance or goal. Davison should have scored last night from a superb move but it doesn't create the same level of chances as Tranmere's more 'simple' game. Press hard, be organised etc. I worry that we have been found out and Garner doesn't have the tools to change it. The next 3 games on paper are much simpler and I think if we don't take a significant amount of points, he'll be under real pressure.

To begin with, then the players decided to be good (away) and give us hope for more. Now fizzling away.

Can't argue with any of that and certainly think we've been found out. Mckirdy and Williams who are both key players in particular. Passing across the back when chasing the game in the latter stages also baffles me.

I think Div mentioned it in the Match Day Fred but surely for the last 10/15 minutes you really need to get the opponents defence under pressure and get your football played in their territory? If this means balls into the channels to win throw ins, or balls up to Davison to try and win headers, or free kicks then this gives you a better chance of being able to open up your opponent rather than attempt to win the goal of the season award by starting out by playing tiki-taka across the back line? This also gets fans behind you if you are winning corners and throws, in good territorial positions rather than a load of moaning when Conroy and Cooper are playing 'to me to you' whilst feebly 'chasing' a game. 

Mine was more in reference to Saturday. Just playing ugly to disrupt Exeter and see out the 1-0 win but the principal equally holds true when chasing a game.

The main point being if we do deviate from the philosophy during games for short spells - the roof won’t fall in. Players won’t be handing in transfer request, the loan players won’t be running back to their parent clubs & other clubs higher up the food chain aren’t going to refuse to loan us players ever again because we played ugly for 15 minutes whilst 1-0 up against a good side

I note that the club admin have stopped posting the possession and passing stats that they were lauding earlier on this season.

That said they are probably scared to post anything at the moment given how the fanbase are feeling! :)

It's a better idea than when we were getting relegated and anyone with any sense wanted our owner gone and the club admin would ignore our relegation in favour of posts asking if anyone "had that Friday feeling" and was looking forward to the game Saturday.

It's a tough one being admin at the best of times, but when things are not going well, every post is returned with a volley of abuse. I think during our relegation season nobody was looking forward to any games and so putting out those kind of messages were only going to get one kind of reaction, but at the end of the day, they are just doing their job and I assume getting 'traffic' is the end goal regardless.

I think it takes brave thinking for a club to recognise early and act on it, if the appointment is wrong. We don’t know for sure if it is yet - that depends on how Garner can evolve the style to pass, but quickly and with purpose. If he can’t change, or refuses to change, then he should go - because our play is not only ineffective (because we pass around at slow pace at the back, so the opposition forwards can press, whilst the midfield and defence organise behind them!) but it is also painfully dull and saps the crowd. The exact opposite of what should be happening. So as a fan, we’re watching good players playing below par, in a way that does not entertain. That will undermine every signing Chorley makes, and every business initiative that Morfuni and Angus come up with, because there will be fewer people ready to watch it. I’d personally give him the season to show a change of intent, but if that doesn’t happen, then don’t waste next season with this brand of football as well.

Garners style is the complete opposite of Flitcrofts, which I despised.  However, Garners approach is fraught with many of the same issues around how it looks to the paying supporter.

Flitcroft seemed to believe that you simply cannot trust a player at this level to do much with the ball, on either side.  Therefore he loaded up four forwards on the team, a basic bottle carrying midfield two and four cloggers at the back.  There was no real need for those defenders to be much kop at passing, or overlapping.  Just hit the ball forwards.  The idea being, I suppose, that the defenders on the other side may clear most of the time, but will fuck up.  Plus our forwards would be able to get on the end of some of the balls.  Either way, you get possession near the other teams box, quite a bit.  It's not good possession, but you know you will get chances.  It was god fucking awful to watch.

Garner is the opposite - keep the ball at all costs, the other team cannot score if you have it,  Do it right and you tire them down and create chances.  At least when it does work it's good to watch, but it does mean entire games can be dull as fucking dishwater as a result, especially when it doesn't work.

Neither are spectator fare.

We are of course assuming the style of play comes from the manager and not above .

I can't see why it would be dictated down, other than to attract u23 players from higher league (cheaper, 'better quality')

probably bollocks theory, just putting it out there

He is doing it the same way he did at Rovers.  Case closed.

That's not to say that a general approach for recruitment and selling on hasn't come from above - the general ethos leads to choosing someone like Garner who will then happily work with that remit.

I can see the ethos behind coaching young players with a view to improving them to sell later down the line, hence keeping the club solvent.

But that only works if the young players are OUR young players. Building a side which is 50% some other club’s young players makes no sense at all. We get fucked over if they do well by them getting recalled in January and have to hastily replace them with another set of somebody else’s youngsters.

Presuming at the end of the season the squad will get decimated again with the loans gone plus the likes of Reed and Payne seeking pastures new. Maybe the crux is that the ethos that attracted some to sign up to play Garner-ball are just as fed up with it as most of us are.

100% this. What’s the point in improving KKH and Simpson to then start again in January? Seems pointless

I think its has been discussed on the other thread that this season cannot really be judged in terms of the ethos as it was all flung together at the last minute basically to fulfil our initial fixtures and go from there.

The problem seems to arise with this developing young players idea that as it stands we only appear to have Iandolo (tenuously) and Parsons home developed young and anywhere near the first team, now Garner may well be misjudging the players but the fact that our yoofs cannot even really get on the bench in normal times suggests that the wider framework just isn't in place for such an ethos to work in the short/medium term?

But i don't think KKH Simpson or any of the other players on loan have been bought in to improve on our behalf, they were bought in because they were/are better than anything we have no the books or anything we could afford to buy. Yes it helps us get better players if we hve a reputation for brining them on, but that only really perpetuates the loan market model and is not really going to sustain us in this league or higher.

The issue remains either we spend cash or we get more savvy, if you look at teams like Accrington or Tranmere their budgets will not be, I imagine, hugely different to ours but they are doing things differently.

because for half a season we have players that are better than we could sign. which improves the team and wins us point. yes its a double edged sword but thats life in league 1 and 2.

would you prefer these good players go to someone else in the league just because we are worried about a recall. its not like all loan players are a success- its a risk you take

Well it did get us at the proper end of the table which gives a bit of leeway if/when they do go back I suppose

To avoid relegation, which was the aim all season