EU Referendum

[RobertT]

If she's canny, she'll use the threat of the vote to negotiate more money from the UK Govt to match anything they'll lose by leaving the EU (as no doubt they get proportionally more funds currently).

[The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey]

Are you trolling or retarded?

Still waiting or are you just going to leave it at your default position of throwing abuse?

[Ardiles]

Explain

Still waiting

Not really my job to explain, but I think it's pretty clear to most that the 'Scotland is part of the UK, and the UK voted to leave' argument is a weak one - particularly when it's also clear that the population of Scotland clearly voted to stay.

You can take the argument to its logical extreme ('My street voted to stay in, and we're being forced out against our will, so we the citizens of Acacia Avenue are going to declare independence...') but that doesn't help.  Scotland is distinct, with its own parliament/devolved assembly, and they have expressed a wish to take a fundamentally different path to England and Wales.  If 'democracy' entails trying to force them to take a path that they clearly don't want to take, then it may have had its day.

Personally, I think Sturgeon's playing a blinder.  I changed my position on Scottish independence on Friday morning.  The status quo is untenable.  If they went their own way now, I would quite understand.  The vote for Brexit was a vote to kill the UK.  The point was made time & again during the campaign, and was derided as 'scare-mongering'.  It wasn't scare-mongering.  It was reality.

[4D]

Governed from Brussels instead of Westminster? Where's the independence in that?

[The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey]

But a Scottish vote holds no more sway than anyone elses in a UK referendum.

Scotland should hold a 2nd referendum, leave, then apply to join the E U.

This wasn't a party political referendum

[Tails]

Fucking hell, I really shouldn't have to explain this. I guess you went for the latter option.

Sturgeon calling for an independence isn't rejecting the democratic will of anything. In fact you could easily argue the opposite because of 2 points.

1) Scotland didn't vote for the Tories, so didn't vote for the referendum.
2) Scotland voted 100% to remain.

Now, as a country with their own parliament they are more than entitled to prepare legislation against something they didn't vote for. They voted to stay in the UK, granted, but EU membership was something promoted as a reason to stay (as well as others).

It's a reaction. Not a rejection. And Sturgeon's reacted better than anyone.

[Tails]

But a Scottish vote holds no more sway than anyone elses in a UK referendum.

Scotland should hold a 2nd referendum, leave, then apply to join the E U.

This wasn't a party political referendum

WTF.

You literally just said that was rejecting democracy.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey]

If they want to stay in the EU, fine. But they should get a mandate from their people to join the EU and leave the UK.

She can't have it both ways and on that basis, the vote would be close as they would have to join the Euro.

[chalkies_shorts]

At the moment she has a mandate to stay in the UK ( Scottish referendum ) and a mandate to Remain in the EU via the recent referendum. Would the Scottish people vote to remain in the EU if it meant leaving the UK, which nobody knows. She is holding some aces at the moment and it is to her advantage to keep them in her hand.

[Panda Paws]

The only real winner in all of this? David Cameron. Exit strategy from from being PM, something he's long been considering, has played out perfectly for him. Leave campaign getting most of the post-ref heat, Labour party tearing itself apart, BoJo and Gove on a hiding to nothing...

[pauld]

The only real winner in all of this? David Cameron. Exit strategy from from being PM, something he's long been considering, has played out perfectly for him. Leave campaign getting most of the post-ref heat, Labour party tearing itself apart, BoJo and Gove on a hiding to nothing...

Lost the job he fought so hard to get, massively fucked up a campaign he expected to win, probably sowed the seeds of his own party splitting up, destroyed his own legacy, possibly going to be seen as being the man who kick started the destruction of the UK. Don't think so

[adje]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-muslims_uk_576e558ce4b08d2c563937ff

This C4 interview with Barnsley resident's about their reasons for voting out makes interesting viewing.  The first guy is very honest about his reasons.  I fear he's going to be somewhat disappointed however.

Whilst I imagine many people voted out for sovereignty/constitutional reasons, how many also made their decision for the same reasons as this guy?

Mmm and i was ridiculed for suggesting some people had racist motives for leaving

[Panda Paws]

Lost the job he fought so hard to get, massively fucked up a campaign he expected to win, probably sowed the seeds of his own party splitting up, destroyed his own legacy, possibly going to be seen as being the man who kick started the destruction of the UK. Don't think so

He no longer wanted the job he "fought so hard to get", doesn't have to deal with the aftermath of a campaign he expected to win (privately, suggestions are that that expectation wasn't as strong as it may have been portrayed) and, as most career politicians, I can imagine he's not too concerned about the long-term future of the Tory party.

[pauld]

He no longer wanted the job he "fought so hard to get", doesn't have to deal with the aftermath of a campaign he expected to win (privately, suggestions are that that expectation wasn't as strong as it may have been portrayed) and, as most career politicians, I can imagine he's not too concerned about the long-term future of the Tory party.

Even if all that is so, (and to take but one point I don't believe for a minute he no longer wanted to be PM until the he lost the vote) but he was and is deeply concerned with his "legacy" which looks pretty fucked right now

[chalkies_shorts]

If Cameron was that interested in party unity, he should have stayed neutral. He could have let the Tories have a free vote instead of openly defying him. They would split on the issue but still been one party. When the vote came in, he could then lead whichever way it went having been impartial. That would have been better for the Tory party. He's shown himself not to be leader but a pretty selfish cheerleader. He took a massive gamble ( with everything in his favour )  and managed to lose a one horse race and created civil war in his party and given the Scottish just about every opportunity to exploit the dismantling of the UK. On top of also being best mates with a Chancellor who manages to fuck up just about everything he touches - pie tax. If that's not enough bedroom tax, disability allowance cuts etc.
What a loss to the UK. Now he can repeatedly put his nose in the trough with his mates. What a bloke. What a great legacy but somehow he'll come out of it alright unlike the common bloke in the street.