Thetownend.com

Most now know what way they're voting, if at all. Thought it would be interesting to see which way the vote would go in the TEF Nation....

That's quite a difference considering nearly everyone I speak to seems to be voting out, my whole fucking family included.

The demographics of this referendum are pretty mental really: https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/03/24/eu-referendum-provincial-england-versus-london-and/

I'd guess this forum is on average under 39 (median, not mean with Reg around)

I want to know who that 3% of Ukippers are...

On the other hand I've only really seen one person I know who's been vocal about voting out and that's Andy Tuck and can't help but feel a lot of that is based on his hatred of Cameron. Most people I've spoke to have been similar to me in that it's better the devil you know on this occasion. I trust people like Martin Lewis, The Governor of the Bank of England, Branson etc over the likes of Boris Johnson (who's only in the out camp to be opposite to Cameron) and Farage.

What's really surprised me amongst the people I've talked to is the widespread scatter of demographic on both sides. There doesn't seem to be a pattern - though clearly that survey disagrees a bit.

Also although I am voting in, that doesn't make me fully pro EU - just pro (what I consider to be) the least bad option.

everybody I have talked with is voting out bar two.
One owns property in Spain, the other thinks he's voting on the Euro and amazingly voting to join.
With so much corruption in the eec and money being made so easily by the establishment I concede defeat. In, it will be, even if they don't get most of the votes.

Martin Lewis is neutral (despite his name on the In leaflet, which he didn't ask to be), the Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, is a former employee of Goldman Sachs (who's a big Remain backer), but the previous Governor, Mervyn King, is a Leaver, and Branson...well he still wants us to join the Euro...

It will be disastrous if we leave, yet my family are all happy to vote out and leave my generation with the fallout. I genuinely worry about the standard of living in this country if we vote out.

There is all manner of strange shit going on, most of my friends are voting to remain not because we are any lovers of the EU but fear the shit storm that could follow an exit, but I have one close friend who has just gone proper leave mental. I think there are a lot embracing their inner right winger at the moment who would not dare vote UKIP but are grasping this opportunity to vote with their hearts  and try and justify it mainly by quoting the Express.

But Lewis has said he will vote to remain.
In the short term it will fuck the economy, pretty much everyone agrees with that. The Brexit's can't really give any real significant reason why we should leave, it just keeps coming back to immigration and as others have said we'll still want a piece of the single market and therefore will have to sign up to the freedom of movement anyway probably with worst terms than we have now.

I'm voting remain but not because I passionately believe in the EU but mostly because I don't believe we will be better off out and I can't stomach the hatred and bile of some in the leave camp.

Pretty much this.

Im voting remain.  There is a discussion to be had about the membership of Europe.  But as someone has just much more succinctly pointed out to me on FB, its the wrong fight at the wrong time for the wrong reasons.

I reckon If the vote had been Sunday it would have been an out vote. Not so sure now with that clown Farage and his poster, certainly making me have a rethink, and do some more research.

When the out campaign is backed by Farage, Boris, Putin & Trump there surely is reason to be suspicious

They also shout the loudest which influences some people....not myself though.

That's good you are thinking, this is not a vote that should be taken on "gut feeling" but on facts, they are all out there. This will not fuck me up as I am older but I feel sorry for all those under eighteen year olds who have no say in this matter and are the ones who will be affected most.

I'm voting remain because I'm not a lunatic or a fantasist. Pretty much every one I know on a business and social level are also voting remain.

My (future) in laws and a couple of acquaintances from outside London are swaying towards leave for completely predictable, fantasist or untrue reasons (too much bureaucracy, something about the old dear's recycling bins, bloody immigrants - especially the Turks when they join too).

Obvious age split and geographical split in my small straw poll of this. Old people and those not in professional jobs in London want out. The young want to remain. Not sure why that split is there, whether it holds true elsewhere?

I'm currently going to vote remain. The reasoning from that side seems more logical and I don't want interest rates to rise as I have a tracker mortgage. I also don't see leaving as a magic wand to end immigration which I think many out voters seem to think it will be. Quite the opposite in fact.

Don`t understand why it has become our responsibility to decide I know nothing about the plus points or the minus points - I think it is totally irresponsible of this government to ask us to vote on such a huge decision - I have also read that even if I do vote out the House of Commons can decide not to validate the decision as 70% of MPs don`t want to leave - what the f..k is going on in this country - will ever stop raining / will England ever be a team that you would pay money to watch - I haven`t got a bloody clue....

And Katie Hopkins, Marine Le Pen, Britain First, Bernie Ecclestone, Rupert Murdoch, George Galloway, Norman Tebbit, Kelvin McKenzie and Toby Young.

Quite the rogues gallery that.

Ironic that the basic building block of democracy (the ballot box) is being used to rubber stamp the continuance of an unelected, unanswerable, impossible to remove political elite.

Shameful

"BUT THEY ARENT ELECTED"

is among the stupidest fucking arguments for leaving. But whatever floats your boat, you're going to lose.

Outers have entirely failed to address the key issue that every non-EU European state who's brokered trading agreements with the EU has been made to accept free movement across their borders as a cornerstone of any agreement.

So how they intend to defend their mantra of taking back border control remains a mystery. Like most of a post-Brexit world.

I agree.....the House of Lords should go.

Ha...

Then why bother with any sort of election. It's obvious most people will vote remain cos they have been scared shitless not because they believe in the EU project.

Spineless fuckers

Particularly when made by prominent leave backers like Lord Digby Jones, Lord Michael Ashcroft, Lord Nigel Lawson or Lord Norman Lamont...

"Make Britain great again"  :zzz:

Any outer I've spoken to seems have this reasoning, dreaming back to halcyon days of their youth when country apparently had no problems. Then they roll out the immigration issue not realising that an out vote will probably make no difference to that.

I don't think anyone's pretending the EU is perfect. But we're a lot better off in it than we are out of it, and our referendum seems to have started making waves in Belgium... Enough that change may be possible.

It's funny that the majority of Brexiters who say the EU isn't perfect are probably the first ones to lay into our own government for their own shortcomings.

Irony, much.

I think some people just like to complain Sam!

Careful, Audrey will go off in a strop again and come back in a month as 'Nigel Farage's love child' or something.

Well, the one question Cameron needs asking is

If leaving is going to be such an unmitigated disaster, leading to WW3 and an outbreak of boils and swarms of locusts, why did he allow a referendum in the first place?

The same people who wouldn't believe a word he said in a general election are now willing to believe the doomsday scenario he spouts.

Not going to strop over fucking Europe. I'm too old for it to make much difference to me.

But the thing will explode some time, that's for sure. It's formenting a right wing backlash already in many countries.

I expect many on here are too young to remember when we were chucked out the ERM amid similar tales of impending doom when we left.

It led to the biggest economic boom in our recent history.

And if the whole EU thing is so fucking great does anybody on here advocate joining the Euro currency

To appease the right wing in the tory party and general growing EU scepticism across the country. It was something he promised and well, he delivered.

Can't help but feel you are slightly exaggerating the claims he made there... We would be in a shit storm if we left, for a time anyway. They weren't Cameron's predictions. The shit about ISIS and WW3 was bollocks though I'll give you that.

You are probably right when you say 'for a time anyway', but to dismiss the UK as unable to stand on its own 2 feet does piss me off.

I'm a disagreeable old Hector!

Fair enough Audrey, I was hoping for a bigger bite! :)

I think both sides of the argument should be ashamed of their campaigns, little in the way of actual facts and some pretty horrible things said and done by both.

For me, I think its very difficult to actually KNOW what will happen to this country in 10,20,30 years time and I guess that's why the facts aren't as plentiful as they may be.

 Beckham has come out for remain....he wants us to think of the children.  That should do it.

He did suggest that he'd vote to leave if he didn't get what he needed from Europe.  I think it would be fair to argue that he most certainly did not got a fundamental change in legal relationship with the EU that will in anyway shape or form change people's lives in the UK.  The Leave campaign would have done well to focus in on that quite heavily, they haven't.  He should have been held to account over that.

That said, I'm one of the few loons in the country who would have zero issue in giving up the Pound.  It just frustrates me that such a poor debate has been had when we got the opportunity to really understand the benefits and costs of being a member state (because although I wasn't around the first time, it's clear nobody understood the path they were being asked to take back then).

As if it bothers that smarmy cunt. If he says in, I'm out for certain!

The dopey cunt probably thought he was being asked if he wanted England to stay in the euros.

Because the Conservative government that was elected to deal with policy matters such as this has been split on this issue for decades, to the point that it is incapable of handling the matter.  So all it can do is hand the matter back to the electorate to decide directly.

I think there are perfectly valid arguments on both sides of the debate.  The choice is binary, but the issues far more complex.  Being asked whether you are 'in' or 'out' is tough.  Being one or the other does not signify that you wholly subscribe to everything on that side of the argument; or that you reject everything the other side is saying.  You have to make a balanced judgement about which set of arguments you find the most persuasive.

I'm 'in', on balance.  But I'll be voting with reservations.  I suppose I'm hoping for a narrow 'in' victory that will send a shot across the bows of both the EU and national governments.

Might all be irrelevant for me, as I haven't had a voting card yet. Does everyone have theirs?

I had mine several weeks ago.

Electoral Fraud.

If you were voting to stay, the right wingers have intercepted your ballot paper, requested a postal vote & will be voting out on your behalf.

If however you were voting to leave, the immigrants have stolen your voting card & are going to dress up & impersonate you on voting day & vote in.

got ours about a month ago I think.

Funny how the economy,normally to most people the most important aspect of any vote,seems to be very much of secondary importance this time

The economy is the main reason I'm voting to stay TBH.

Thats good but my impression is that immigration seems to be the overriding factor for many of the leavers as if the possibility of economic instability are worth enduring as long as we stop the migrants

I think that's exactly right.  'In' wins, in most people's eyes, on the economy.  'Out' wins when it comes to concerns about migration/population policy.  Whether you're 'in' or 'out' depends largely on which of these two you consider to be the most important.

How is the economy going to be hit? Some fairly wealthy countries in Europe that aren't in the EU.

The pound decreased in value when the polls favoured brexit.

It does that on the basis of a poll imagine what's gonna happen if we actually leave. And that's just the start of it.

I'm pro immigration. The reason I've wavered towards leave occasionally is because it seems logical to me that the British government are the best placed to make decisions about Britain. What's good for France, for example, isn't necessarily good for us. But then I don't understand it I suppose.

Why would you vote 'in' just because the "out" crew is full of wankers though? I don't get that. This is something that will have a profound effect on the country, it's not like wanting Rotherham to lose because Evans is a prick.

I'm also yet to meet a Brexiter who bemoans the lack of sovereignty and power to make our own laws who can actually tell me a specific EU law that has caused them concern or personal detriment.

On the flip side, decisions taken within the UK impact the regions of the UK in very different ways, many to the detriment of Northern regions or far West.  You can keep breaking down further and further.

I worry that we may well vote to Remain, and then spend many years complaining again because it wasn't what we thought it was supposed to be.

The EU is headed in one direction, the direction it has always been set on - Political, Social and Economic Cohesion.  That means you have to move to single policy territory, that you have to protect the right of people to move to anywhere within the trading block, that each region has to have the some social policies to ensure fairness and so on.  This aim is designed to avoid National interests sparking unrest and eventually war - the inevitable outcome based on our history of leaving countries to their own devices for too long.  The EU therefore has to become a "State" in its own right with each Country becoming essentially a region.

With that come the benefits of stability, over time of the leveling of regional in-balances, in greater economic growth overall of more social and environmental responsibility etc.

The price is waving goodbye to the recent historical construct of countries as they exist today.

I think that in the long run, countries cannot continue to exist (or, at least, will become a lot less important) anyway.  The rise of multi-national corporations and inter-national alliances have already started this.  In 200 or 300 years from now, I would be very surprised if smaller countries continued to exist in anything other than a ceremonial capacity.

Of course, all this is just supposition.  But in an increasingly connected world, the EU and alliances like at are probably the direction that we're heading in...like it or not.  The more I think about it, the more the Brexit stance feels a little like King Canute trying to turn back the waves.  I felt much the same way 2 yrs ago during the Scottish Independence campaign.

If the countries within the EU are, supposedly, 'equal' when it comes to how it treats migrants, economic or otherwise, why are so many clammering to get into the UK instead of staying put in France, for example.

Could it be because the UK is continuing to create jobs via a growing economy as opposed to, say, France where the unemployment rate is double the UKs and the entire EU, apart from the UK, is stagnating.

40% youth unemployment in Greece means the EU has washed its hands of an entire generation in order to impose financial austerity orchestrated by Germany.

The EU is destined to break apart and fail and my view is that a controlled UK exit now will be preferable.

Im veering towards remain for the fact that i hate to think what this govt is capable of without the constraints europe places upon them.

I mean, let's not get facts get in the way of our ramblings, eh?

(http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/12937/production/_88578067_europe_migrant_numbers_mar2016.png)

Or perhaps you might prefer that data per capita...

(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/DB17/production/_88578065_asylum_claims_per_capita_624gr.png)

Absolutely Nemo, some things are inflated out of all proportion by our media, why lets a few facts get in the way of sensationalism?

And it's my lack of concern about whether or not something notionally called the UK really exists that means it's all down to economics and social policy for me, and I prefer the "European" approach.

Bring on Starfleet is all I have to say

Talking to a remain guy this morning, he made the same point, and in particular workers rights. Interesting that neither side has wanted that out in the open. He says all labour leaning people he knows who would vote out are voting in, as they are shit scared of letting the tories loose without handcuffs.

Pretty much everything else from Star Trek has come to pass or is being worked on in some variant.

Doesn't answer the question at all.

Why are there thousands in Calais trying to get into the UK.

You can only apply for asylum once you are physically in the country.

That chart is irrelevant though. Doesnt matter where you apply with free movement.

And the FTSE went up 2.5% when it was announced that remain had a lead in a poll I believe.

Hasn't the £ been falling since 2014 ?

Perceived better opportunities right now?
Speak the language?
Family before them?
No luck finding somewhere to settle elsewhere?

Many reasons I guess, none of which will change much In or Out.  We are already clearly making it clear we don't want them while we are In, not sure why that would change either way.

Yes against the Dollar - due to low interest rates and the continuing forward guidance of such.  Dollar strengthened because IR's were going up or perceived to be going that way.  Not so much against the Euro which has been poor as well.

I think its all down to cheese!

One question no Brexiter has answered is that the EU is going down the shitter apparently yet there is a clamour from all these other countries to join this broken group?

Of course there is, they want to take out - they certainly won't be paying in!!

 Neither decision has much to commend it....very much a case of the least worse option.

 Take something, like re-nationalising the railways, a policy which Labour are keen on and surveys say are popular in the country....forbidden by EU rules.

 The Tory Brexit brigade would be very keen on other things like TTIP, which reduce the state to the bare minimum. The EU have been secretly negotiating this and no doubt the Tories will sign up to it...just maybe the French won't.

 The Labour left argument, is that Brexit would enable a Labour government to avoid these EU bankers rules...problem is first you have to win an election with a Corbynite party and there seems to be insufficient chance of that for a lefty to vote out, however tempted by the Benn argument.

I'd be surprised if Corbyn is still in charge of Labour by the next election tbh

Think it's very difficult to predict the fall out from this referendum.....first we need to get the result.

If it's close it wouldn't surprise me if we had another general election soon either...

Yet the essentially nationalisation of West Ham Utd didn't attract any State Aid implications, amazing what can go against EU policy when the ruling politicians choose to do so, similarly Gove et al want to sort immigration by leaving the EU despite doing next to nothing to address the issue when in government for the last 6 years!

A lot will depend when the election is, if the Tories get their exit and continue to implode I can see an election this year with a surge in the Labour vote from the centre protesting at the Tories royally fucking the whole country over!

Its not just the French who do not want TTIP, the Germans are not keen also (less than 50% of the electorate want it) depends how much Merkel feel she can rock the boast after the immigration debacle.

By your own logic, then, following a "Leave" vote, these thousands you are so terrified of would no longer be in Calais, but Dover and applying for asylum here instead. Which I'm guessing is the exact opposite of what you want.

Voting out for me

Sent from my SM-G935F

I'm voting In. Nothing the Out campaign has said gives me any confidence that we'd be better off, or more secure, than we are now.

I think I read somewhere that the British border controls on French soil in Calais are there because of a bilateral agreement the British and French governments; and not because an EU-led rules.

However, if we did leave, I would imagine that France would be far less inclined to allow us to maintain border controls there.  As you suggest, they would probably wave the migrants across the water, giving us a massive immigration control headache at Dover.

Quoting the final 2 lines of Jim by Belloc seems to sum up the Remainers

'And always keep a-hold of Nurse
For fear of finding something worse. '

ROARRRRRR!!

What a cunt.....

I think a quote from Horlock07 better sums it up....

Why the fuck would I commit financial suicide and potentially jeopardise the future economic wellbeing of my family just to further the political ambitions of some right wing politicians and those who blindly follow them for whatever reason.

Yes they are
Yes they would

My reply was better.

Incorrect. Long term residency is not enough for free movement in Europe. You must become a citizen.

http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/eu-migration-crisis-will-refugees-acquire-full-free-movement-rights/

But you're quite willing to believe Cameron, Osbourne et al in their vision of impending doom.

Where did I say that, please point me to that?

My opinion is based 100% on my own knowledge and experience of business and the manner in which banking, investments law making and other things work, it has fuck all to do with what either Cameron or Osbourne have said (who have both been a hindrance to the remain campaign in my opinion?)

Similarly as you are hinting at an exit vote I assume you have believed all that Farage et al have spouted?

Ironically this would lead to a massive headache for the Border Control Agency and demands for additional staff to manage the immigration system thus more civil servants - a somewhat unwelcome expansion in the public sector for the right to deal with  :girlgiggle:

This is why people are so turned off by politics. It takes no time for it to descend into 'if you're in, you're a Tory idiot' and and 'if you're out, you're a racist.' Fuck all that.

Strangely I had a pre-booked meeting with my financial advisor this afternoon - after doing what we had to do he shocked me by telling me he is voting Leave and thinks it will be better in the long run for his clients!  

Christ, am I only hinting at an out vote!

Sorry, if I put words in your mouth.

Amen to that

My Dad worked in finance for 40 years and he's voted out also.

Anyway, don't forget the fixtures are out at 9am tomorrow!

No they're not.  They're in!

Saw a car driving around with vote leave boards plastered all over.

It really doesn't bother me. And to be honest, I don't understand any of it. I don't understand politics full stop.

Why cant you just let the people who do understand politics have their moment?!

It's all about getting men behind it and making it difficult.

Apology accepted, cos its you!  :D

In almost all circumstances, when EU law is implemented in the England the government, of whatever colour, has chosen to go beyond the level that the EU has stipulated. Anybody who thinks being "out" means we govern differently is kidding themselves - it's a red herring.

Well I think this just about settles it...

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Clemk-IWMAAenqH.jpg)

I'll see your Bobby George and will raise you David Icke:

(http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/80/590x/secondary/David-Icke-521909.jpg)

  :)  Icke probably thinks it's a referendum on leaving the solar system...

What happened to the purple shellsuit?

I'll be glad when this is all over. I've changed my mind numerous times but will be voting to remain. I thought they walked that debate last night and I don't want to risk my mortgage going through the roof. This vote basically boils down to immigration for most people and I don't see leaving the eu as a miracle to end it.

Spot on. I have decided the exact same thing. You can't have a debate with anyone either without the other side of the argument branding you a moron.

They only say that to you tbf.

Right thats it...in.'cause i dont give one iota of fuck about immigration.

You may worry when you are forced to become a muslim - about as bad as being forced to support OUFC!!

Yes. Because that's a thing that will happen

from a snippet I saw on the news yesterday I think there are people who are able to vote that actually believe that

Thats crap, no way on earth can they MAKE us support OUFC!

If we do vote OUT will that Jock fishwife start banging on about another referendum on Scottish independence?

Just give them it.

I suspect it depends how we vote and how they vote (any idea if the results will be given in that detail) if we vote to go and Scotland to remain it gives them a massive excuse to go for independence again, although not sure what effect the drop in oil prices will have on viability.

Ultimately sturgeon has come out of this looking like some manner of statesperson compared to the comic twatish  'politicians we have.

Good point. I don't know whether the results come up as 'Swindon Out' or just a running accumulation of the respective totals

There are 380-ish areas which will have counts and declare totals, which will get consolidated as the night goes on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36044026

I've not got a fucking clue what to vote for. So much bullshit on either side and an equal amount of cunts on each side telling me the other cunts are bigger cunts.

I don't think you are alone by any means.  A significant number of the 46 million(?) registered voters will be in a similar position.  That's what's wrong with referendums, particularly one on an issue as wide ranging as this one.  Unfortunately, it's not about facts, it's about opinions and those are influenced by who shouts the loudest and who tells the best lies.  I resent the fact that such an important decision is going to depend on the decisions of a significant majority of the electorate who wont have a very firm grasp of all the relevant factors - myself included.  Thanks very much Cameron, you bastard.

All you can probably do at this late stage is think about whether it's better to try to make future changes from inside or outside.  good luck!

It would take years to leave the EU.  If there is a Leave vote and then, within a few years, it becomes apparent that it was the wrong decision, there will be ample opportunity to reverse it...despite what some politicians (here and in other EU countries) are saying at the moment.

I don't think that would be a 'given' by any means and would, in any event take many years (of uncertainty) to resolve.

To be honest it doesn't really matter either way. Me thee and everyone on here will still get fucked over by the bullington boys, and their compadres in other countries at the top, whatever the outcome. Swallow your medicine, and keep digging/farming/making shit, so they can make their bonuses.

Churchillian.

Probably spot on....unfortunately.

https://fullfact.org/

Vote leave and get rid of the Scots and Cameron the lying cheating turncunt at the same time.

And replace him with the lying cheating Johnson? Superb.

voting leave will achieve neither of them.

I looked at it a different way - If we weren't in, would I vote to join ?


edit : I know this is purely theoretic as we cannot possibly assess the current state of the UK after 43 years out of the EU but it helped clarify a few issues.

I have voted OUT 😀

Sent from my SM-G935F

What do we actually export to europe these days? :sherlock:

Quite a lot of stuff apparently https://fullfact.org/europe/do-half-uks-exports-go-europe/ although not sure what this actually relates to?

Just had a quick look at the uk trade stats. Net importer of about £12bn a month.

Which is exactly why we'll all be fucked if we leave and the Pound plummets tomorrow.

That's a completely different question, though.  If we weren't currently in the EU, then we would know what it was that we were changing to, as the situation both inside and outside the EU would be known.  As it is, we know what the situation is as a member of the EU, but not what will happen if we leave.

There are many arguments to stay and leave, but I don't think that this is a good way of looking at it, as it's the unknown quantity of leave that is driving the rhetoric of what *might* happen in the event of a leave vote from both sides.

It would be a damn sight clearer if we were out and voting to join, that's for sure.

OAPs

Football hooliganism...

I actually voted for the first time since being a teen today. Remain was the direction I voted.

Neither sits well with me, but I like the idea that perhaps the EU makes the cunts that we elected, to supposedly act in out interests, at least have someone to keep an eye on them and ensure they don't completely fuck us. (Even though pretty much everyone apart form the upper echelons are already taking it right up their arses and the EU supposedly have an erection for the delight that is T.T.I.P.)

I actually fear TTIP more if we leave, Tories are lapping it up and we will be in, within the EU all countries will have to ratify and as it stands the French and Germans are not keen...

Why are people so against T In The Park? Its a great music festival.

Nice to see the majority on here are voting to stay in......let's hope it reflects the final result.
I can't vote myself as I have lived outside the UK for more than 15 years.

On the run?  :D

Write off cars seem to sell well in eastern Europe.

Why no exit polls then?  One of the things I'll never forget about the General Election is walking out of the pub after watching us win through to the Play Off Final last year and - before I got back to the car - the exit poll came out on the dot of 10pm to correctly predict the outcome.  No need to wait up all night.

Exit polls rely on having data from lots of previous elections to be accurate. They survey people at key polling stations which have historically provided a good indication of the final vote, then extrapolate that across the whole thing. For this, they have no idea which polling stations to survey due to lack of comparable data. The whole methodology wouldn't work.

There are various privately commissioned polling day 'exit type' polls though, but apparently the news outlets can't report on them until after the Polling Stations close (Source - Friend that works for ITN News).

Logistics.  For General/Party elections they have key wards they sample from that they used to think would be good predictors of regional variations.  Aside from them getting it wrong last time out due to a shift in the regional voting map, they can't use the same method for this and would need to sample from all over the UK

Nothing can be reported on the day until the polls close to avoid influencIng the voting.  You can imagine a mid way poll suggesting an outcome and people no longer bothering to vote.

Thanks all.  Makes sense!

I'd completely forgotten that the 2 events coincided....the mood in the pub, changed from a sort of disbelief from the match  some of us had been to, to a sort of disbelief we were going to be lumbered with a Tory government.

Election coincided with first leg at Sheffield?
Already in the grip of a Tory second term come the 5-5 at home.

Yes.  The first leg was on the Thursday night - Election Day.

In 25 years of voting in the same polling station I have never been in such a queue to vote before.  Would be great if that was reflected in the national turnout.  A big turnout and a clear majority (either way) might just help the fallout not be too damaging.

I didn't vote (for obvious reasons).

But if I did, I think I would have voted out. For no other reason than to stick two fingers up at those that were suggesting that an out vote was equal to bigotry.

Swindon expected to vote out...

You're in prison?

I knew it.

Busted

It's ok, she didn't look like a policeman to me either.

Swindon votes to leave. 55% to 45% I'm off to bed

It's happening... oh fuck

sterling - usd down 5%

75.8% turnout. Very interesting.

not bad

I'm shitting it...

Looks like the Leaves have won it then and the pound has dropped to its lowest level since the 1980's.  We must be the first country to vote ourselves into a recession....

I thought you money boys loved a good recession? it's a great time for a few to make money.
I'll assume we've won, even the the Europe loving BBC are forecasting a Brexit.
Now put Farage in charge of negotiations and not eurofiles who might sabotage the WILL of the people.

If anything at least it will be fun watching people who did vote leave suffer with the economic fallout.

 :popcorn:

Oh shit!

My thoughts as well, if we do end up in a full blown recession it will be difficult to sympathise with people that voted to leave and lose their jobs as a result.

Gracious.

Jesus wept, will done to the stupid

The pound down 10% and the FTSE 100 predicted to open 19% down.... Must be some kind of unwanted record!

Hold on to your hats. Shits about to get ugly.

Well people like me felt the full force of the Bankers fucking up so we are used to it. It took me 6 months to find anew job competing against the eastern European hordes, age working against me.
By the way I'm off to my second job, still trying to keep my head above water. Got to dash. I'll leave the weeping and wailing to you guys that have the time to waste on this website, instead of doing real work. See you in a brave new Britain. tata.

Doesn't this mean that websites in the UK won't have to ask us if we mind them using cookies anymore?

This is well exciting.

Enjoy having no job in a couple of weeks and still having the 'Eastern European Hordes' in front of you!

Not going to read the news for the next two years by which time Boris and Co will have negotiated a satisfactory Brexit. 

Germany & Co will bow to our will in any negotiations - too many BMW sales to the UK for them to risk otherwise.

Can't work out if amazed, surprised or disappointed...  :hmmm:

Oh yeah, it's all of the above  :suicide:

Going to need to put together a plan for the exit strategy first as based on what they've said to date there doesn't seem to be one! They've basically won as a result of the immigration argument so I'm intrigued to see how they now deliver on their promises, my suspicion is they will be impossible to achieve!

At least my council voted to remain I suppose. Silver lining.

Amazing when you see the results by age ranges:

(YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain

So basically the ones that don't really need to worry about the consequences have put those that do at risk.

Cheers Batch.

Terrifying stats. I do wonder if it was oldies voting for a time before "the others" came.

Very presumptuous.

Well proves that a lot of people are more worried about living next door to a foreigner than anything else

Don't be silly adje

Possibly. Or, they have the experience of what the EU was supposed to be and have witnessed what it actually turned out to be.

I knew I had a bad feeling about this..

On the way to the polling station last night I stacked it outside the Co-Op, wearing flip flops on smooth paving stones.. in the rain... I've even cut my fucking toe open and jarred my back. It was funny as fuck, not only for me but the hoards of people who were outside the shop (my wife included).

That would never have happened if the majority vote was to be remain.

I'm getting an Irish passport

Nah, i'll stick with my more negative reading

Is this bad news?

I'm confused. Seriously. I don't understand if it is good or bad.

Absolutely - If you are worried about unsustainable, uncontrolled levels of immigration you are a 'hate filled bile spitting racist' as has been described on here previously or, put more mildly, 'afraid of living next door to a foreigner'.

Jesus wept, give me a break. Can we just grow up?

Well, it's not as bad some people would have you believe. Day to day, nothing will change short term. England will still go out on pens to Iceland  ;)

My parents and their ilk prospered under the EU, and have property and a pension... and have voted to help deprive me of that same opportunity. Cheers.

I'm ashamed and embarrassed that the likes of Farage are the face of Britain to the world this morning.

I hope however that there is no serious campaign to overturn/avoid/undermine this decision.  Like it or not (that's a "not" for me) this was a decisive vote to leave.  The whole world told us we'd be mad to vote for it but we still did by a small but clear majority.  Any attempt to do anything other than implement it would be appalling and would add to the chaos and uncertainty.  We simply have to make this work as best we can.

It is ironic that the people who voted to leave will probably, on average, be more adversely impacted than the people who voted to remain but that's democracy.  Sometimes it sucks but consider the alternative.

Who's to say that wouldn't have happened if we never entered the common market? Nobody knows for sure. I remember the economic hardship of the late 70's through the 80's. We were in the common market during that period.

Cameron is a fucking fool for offering up this referendum to try and placate his own party. The likes of Farage will have grown with this result, and I'm ashamed by the choices taken by this country. I truly hope my gut feeling is wrong and we've not just fucked ourselves over for years to come.

Exactly my feelings, I am utterly ashamed that Farage is the face of Britain today.

I agree with what you are saying, but what about this scenario....

Economy continues to be shit for next 6-9 months, unemployment rises, recession bites etc etc.
In the meantime the centre of the Tories the rump of New Labour and the Lib Dems get their shit together and start to promote a pro EU manifesto.
Equally the UKIP/Right Tories have no mandate to bring in all their changes Boris et al was suggesting would happen (none of this was in the manifesto people voted for 12 months ago), they are already trying to wriggle out of the 350m for the NHS - therefore they will need an election or alternatively are there enough vote remain MP's in parliament to push a vote of no confidence...

So we have an election, the 48% who voted remain vote for this party, those on the right who have lost their jobs, pensions etc of realise they have been duped vote for this party, Labour supporters who have seen their workers right pissed around with vote.

If they win the election there will be a democratic mandate for a party that is anti leave - then what.

All very hypothetical apart from the bit about centre Tories which I have been told by someone with contacts in the party, god knows what's going to happen!
 

Your Parents were probably promised a lot by the EU that was not delivered as well.

Seems to be rather a lot of doom on here (and from friends) about everything going down the pan being a fact. I know what I'm saying is essentially as bad as what they're saying, but no one actually knows, for a fact, what is going to happen.

My gut does say this result is shit, but I actually don't really give a toss* and I'm interested to see what happens.

Life goes on and I'm not sure how maintaining the status quo was somehow going to improve the lives of those at the bottom anyway, because the gap betwen the top and bottom was only growing. Maybe this might be good, who knows?

I'm certainly grateful I'm no longer on social media, as I suspect there's a lot of fact filled anger and sharing today.

*Apart form the fact I'm going on Holiday tomorrow and didn't think to change currency yet.

72% remain in Wansworth.

Doesn't mean much however :(

Not at all i would say 90% of the people that i know who voted leave said immigration was the sole reason

i prefer my mild version but do you seriously think we were heading for "uncontrolled unsustainable levels of immigration" had we stayed in? A brexit myth in my opinion

I was seeing on the news this morning that some Welsh areas that gain massively from the EU voted to leave. Not sure why they would cut off their noses to spite their faces.

WANDSWORTH MASSIF

INNIT BRUV. DON'T BE A WASTEMAN

According to Fox news, we've just voted to leave the UN.

Is that true?

52.9% to remain in South Lakeland, I think we should annexe ourselves to Scotland and remain.

No Adje, I don't think we're heading for it. I personally think we're already there. I base my opinion on what I see and hear with my own eyes and ears, not on anything 'Brexit' have said. But that's what this is all about isn't it? Opinions - No one can really know whether we should have come out or stayed in. People may think they know but they don't. It's all about your gut feeling.

But then you'd end up with wee Jimmy Krankie as your President!

(http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.M24da042c129cb2f15155f0d21016c0a9o0&w=299&h=199&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0&r=0)

Fan dabby dozy.....

I'm going to be controversial here and say I actually like both Sturgeon and Salmon. (the people, not the fish)

Shame on David Cameron for allowing an EU referendum to happen just to get himself re-elected.

Shame on the people who voted in or out on a whim without doing any ‘neutral’ research.

Shame on the people who didn’t vote.

Shame on the media, the remain & exit campaigns for not giving the public a clear view of the positives & negatives behind either decision.

To be honest she is possibly the only politician who has come out of this with any shred of credibility intact.

The Sweaties now face a bit of a mare....namely they'll have to wait until the UK is fully out of the EU, possibly some years. Then hold another Scottish referendum, who knows what the landscape might look like then....and then apply to join the EU as a new nember. That's a whole heap of uncertainty, would you invest?

you're absolutely right.voting leave does not make anyone a racist but i too go with what i see and living in a ukip stronghold (be there such a thing) i know for a fact that many people have voted with a racist agenda...and i am grown up,too grown up in fact!

Cornwall too

Much more aggressive timeline than that, they'll be going to the polls within two years based on today's speech from Sturgeon.

Very well said sir. :clap: I feel particularly strongly about the last point and it sums up modern day politics for me.

Me too mate  ;)

There is a shred (only a shred) of reality in the statement - our seat on the UN Security Council is partly due to the EU membership.

Very well put. Can I add a couple?

Shame on Labour for deciding it was an internal Tory dispute they didn't need to get involved in and then realising too late what was going on.

Shame on our entire political class for ignoring the very real concerns that lie behind this vote - every election they say they've heard what people are saying and this time they really will listen. They've done that for the past 20-30 years, and now they are reaping the consequences

Shame on the selfish older voters for saddling the young with the consequences of a protest vote that won't affect them

I wonder whether the mood could change in NI?  As they voted to remain, will there be a push from Republicans for a move to being absorbed within the ROI, expecting less resistance from traditional Unionists?

There is NO shame....it's called democracy.....If you don't like it...go and live in North Korea.

The people have voted and spoken....rightly or wrongly.

I'm not a big fan of the Tories.... They got in fair and square...that's my tough shit.

Sinn Fein are already making suggestions of a vote for northern Ireland  like the Scottish had.

Shame on the people who judge other people's reasons for voting the way they have.

People have voted for what they wanted and thats that. Called a democracy. I didn't vote for it but thats tough shit, everyone has their reasons so you gotta get on with it. Hate how this referendum has just used hate and abuse against people with a different opinion. I voted to remain and am part of the young generation that didn't vote for it, up to us to try and make it work.

Sorry I didn't mean that was the case for all people who'd voted out, but it was a significant factor for some/many/several. For me, the vast bulk of the blame lies with the politicians who've ignored and abused a whole class of people for 20-30 years. But we'll all pay the price for that.

Can't disagree with that.

In or Out.. the abuse and bullying that people have dished out because of their difference in OPINIONS has been embarrassing.

I was just quoting the same sentence as 4D, but Paul's now replied. :)

I always respect your political posts, Paul, because you seem quite balanced, but I was quite surprised to see such a sweeping generalisation from you and had just wrote 1000 words of vitriol to ask you to explain that statement - 4D put it better! ;)


Yep. The catch-all categorisations people are using is really fucking me off.

The number of "If you voted for x then unfriend me" comments I've seen from otherwise rational people on FB has been fucking embarrassing. I didn't vote either way but felt like unfriending these people anyway, I chose instead to rise above it and ignore such crap.

So basically shame on anyone who didn't agree with you? Brilliant

FWIW It's worth i voted remain but i totally get why other people didn't. The last few months the media the in/out campaigners have been nothing but a joke. The way the majority have looked down their noses and belittled anyone who disagrees with what they think is an absolute fucking joke.

I know it's not solely the EU fault but you tell me hand on heart that you can't relate to someone who has had to resort to using foodbanks or has had their disabilty allowance cut or had to pay taxes on a spare bedroom that all of a sudden they should believe the very people who put them in that position in the first place?

Cameron bought this on with his own in party bollocks and it's backfired but don't blame the people who have been royally fucked over by this lot for not wanting to trust them again.

EDIT.Seen your post a few down

Well, it is a day for shocks.  :D

Well put. But I'd go so far as to say it's not so much a class of people they've ignored and abused, but the majority of the tax-paying populace. I think of the country more as the political class, their mates, the super-rich and big business and then everyone else (predominately distracted, distanced and largely ignorant).

The oddity being that all those things you mention are down to the incumbent Govt. decisions on legislation that was never impacted by the EU membership, so won't change.

I do think it was right to vote out, simply because a far bigger majority actually don't believe in the EU Project, they keep thinking it was something it's not.  It was never due to be a trade block, it was always supposed to be a Super State.  I'm sad we are leaving, but better to get out when that majority exists - democracy must have it's day to avoid further moves to frustration.

Hopefully I've explained it a bit. It was too sweeping and I'm sorry for that (so shame on me) - I think there are a lot of very genuine reasons why people have voted the way they have and their votes have to be respected. The worst thing that could happen now is for parliament to try to resist/bend the result. It is what it is. However, I think a lot of people are going to be quite horrified at the consequences of what they've voted for - we'll be hearing a lot of "I didn't vote for that" in coming weeks/months. Well, yes actually you did, and the fault for that lies with the politicians of all sides and the media who have run a disgraceful campaign based on lies, fears and prejudice rather than actually trying to inform people what the possible consequences were

I'm not sure how this vote helps the working and under class though?  Scotland will leave the Union and the remaining UK will overwhelmingly vote Right wing at general elections giving the Conservative party a bigger majority most of the time.

No not at all

Totally agree and I said that, in so many words.

Again, completely agree and that's what I meant by "Shame on our entire political class for ignoring the very real concerns that lie behind this vote - every election they say they've heard what people are saying and this time they really will listen. They've done that for the past 20-30 years, and now they are reaping the consequences"

I did say it's not the EU fault about thoses things. My gripe it appears that people can't accept that maybe these people had genuine reasons for wanting out

That's fine. I'm not one of them :)

I know you are not mate.Think my post is out of frustration at the amount of shite i am seeing on social media.

Oh Christ, I haven't dared go near Facebook or Twitter today

It's so difficult to ignore when some of them are fit as fuck. Especially when they've just come back from girls holidays and the picture albums go up...

Here's one of those unintended consequences people didn't realise they were voting for, already:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36618796

"I hope the formula of co-sovereignty - to be clear, the Spanish flag on the Rock - is much closer than before."

Interesting that this appeared in a Murdoch rag?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/it-will-take-an-age-to-recover-from-this-victory-for-the-exit-fantasists-zzfpxsc66

Feel as if figuratively the country has just been diminished and dumped a few hundred miles further into the mid Atlantic, off the beaten track on the road to insignificant little island status.

Good luck to the negotiators, the exit article needs to be triggered as soon as possible, but sounds as if Leave are in no rush.
Hopefully it will be borne in mind that the mandate to leave was by no means overwhelming.
Europe could also play hardball in an effort to discourage a domino effect,
and all will be played out against a background of Tory leadership maneuvering.
Not good.

Oh and Corbyn has to go. Far too little and too late in terms of providing any sort of guidance for Labour's core support.

Still, at least cucumber curvature will no longer be an issue.
Finding the people to pick them might be a problem though.

Interesting to see the breakdown by ages:

(YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain

Well seeing as the city types will be out of work I'd suggest they make themselves useful ;)

A poll of how many?

I honestly see no reason for Corbyn to resign, mainly because this should have nothing to do with party politics (Libs and SNP apart) unless membership was a basic principle of membership of that party.  If anything, I'm surprised he didn't campaign for Leave.

Don't think he'll have much choice in the matter, ultimately.
But yes, for something as important as this personal principles should come before party politics.

He's always been anti EU as long as I've known of him, problem for me is he changed his principles to remain in his high seat, or so he thought. His integrity is compromised.

 :)
There would have to be a bonus scheme in place first though.

I don't quite see how that would happen, the referendum was such a black & white vote that anyone seeking to claim a mandate for reversing it via a general election would have had to turn their election manifesto into such a binary, single issue campaign as to render them unelectable.

  

Not sure any city types will be out of work, the UK banks are essentially protected now and in the international market uncertainty and volatile trading and currency markets is a delightful way for them to make money, and if it all gets too much the banks will just relocate to Frankfurt?

It will be the plebs who are out of work?

Apart from the 48% who voted remain? That's considerably more than the Tories got to win the last election (on a higher turn out), if a new centralist party got its act together, mobilised the pissed off remainers to make sure they vote and the potential financial shivers continue between now and an election who knows - its all entirely hypothetical but (IMHO) an interesting theory.

The lib dems are on a recruitment drive doing that very thing! Appealing to pissed off remain people whilst they are still pissed off is a fairly decent plan.

Won't help them much though I don't think.

A lot is going to depend on what the remain Tories are going to do, not sure how many backed remain and how many leave? If there is a centrist Tory, Lib Dems, 'new' labour home in the offing may shake things up a little.

I don't actually understand why we held a referendum. I know it was a "promise", but of all the promises the scum keep, normally zero, why was this one actually kept?


Thanks for the reply.

Cameron thought he'd win it. He didn't think the plebs would vote for an economic recession and the break up of the UK. Major misjudgement.

Still in shock, didn't think thick people liked voting :fishing:. The peasants are indeed revolting. 

I'm not bitter or angry that the Leave vote won. I'm disappointed that people have chosen to leave the EU for the reasons that they have instead but to each their own. I don't believe in the EU but I do think we're better off remaining for the moment rather than leave due to a poorly considered campaign/Tory fight.

I'm also concerned about how it will impact on not only my wife but the Czech, Greek, Italian, Spanish colleagues I have.

That logic was why I wanted Remain to win. In time, surely UKIP will cease too and join the Conservatives. I can only see a long-term future of Tory rule. But a more right wing version of what we have now.

Not likely to help the interests of the poor.

Anyone think it will play out differently?

and amongst all the doom and gloom, it could be brilliant. Some people have revelled in their indignant rage and their patronising put downs to leavers as uneducated and ill informed racists. Its like the moany Slave Trader cunts after we beat them. It wasn't fair blah blah fucking blah.
I'm proud of my country today. I haven't got a fucking clue if I've made the right decision. Nor has anyone else. I think I've made a good decision. Others think I haven't but nobody knows.
Hopefully people will now turn their attention towards making this work. It could be shit. It could be great. Lets talk it up not down. .its a big world out there. 

When they eventually try to pick up the pieces, the 'Conservative & Unionist Party' might want to start thinking of what their new name could be.

(http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/576cfb1c2200002e00f82c23.png)

How's the legacy looking, Dave?

What a clown.  Navigates his way through a tortuous Scottish Independence referendum campaign in 2014; and 2 years later turns the ball in to his own net with no help from anyone else.  Years from now, Nicola Sturgeon will still be waking up each morning and rubbing her eyes in disbelief that Cameron did all of her work for her.

All this, I have no admiration of the EU, I just worry about the financial implications, shellfish I know but that's life, been made redundant before and that was when I didn't have a wife and kid to support.

If we thrive then all the Brexiters can rightly say I told you so (and I hope they can), however the degree of gloating and provocation over social media today has been a little unpleasant which doesn't bode well.

Just rubbing her eyes....  ;)

Look at that proud island of remain in the sea of exit in cumbria - South Lakeland you did me proud.

But we move on and see what happens, cannot say I am not very concerned about the economic implications (the property development sector has essentially sat on its hands and been closed today whilst I suspect all have a long think over the weekend) but fuck all I can do about it - lets have  a beer.

If you have any queries regarding the sheer fuckwitness of some of the electorate.....

http://theslot.jezebel.com/man-who-voted-for-brexit-is-a-bit-shocked-his-vote-coun-1782553004

A lot of businesses in Calais will be closing up in a few years I imagine, as it's highly unlikely that people will be able to do a booze run anymore.

If Scotland go, what happens to Berwick's football team?  They'd be trading in the wrong currency for the league.

I wonder how many of the 65 plus voted in way back in the early 70s and have now voted out. Quite a few I reckon....basing that on my old man and old Doris ...and the outlaws.
They reckoned a common market got out of control and we are helpless to stop it...

Right or wrong this is the they felt.

My folks live in a small village and the outlaws hail from London and near Luton...differing angles.

The fact we actually had to do a booze run is an EU joke...

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_576d2dfee4b0dbb1bbba3911

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

I got 3 numbers up on my Euromillions ticket. Can I still claim the winnings?

No!  You have to send it to Nigel Farage.   :)

I think you'll find that will shortly be Sir Nigel Farage

Genuine question to the Leavers: did the supposed £350m a week to be spent on the NHS form any part of your decision to vote leave? And if it did, do you now realise they never meant it?

I knew it was bollox and it played no part in my decision.

Fair enough, cheers for the answer. What were the main factors for you, if you don't mind me asking? ("Mind your own" is a perfectly reasonable response)

Very, very well said my friend.

O/T I saw Neil Young at the O2 the other week. Marvellous.

Quite simple - control and what the EU is. I don't have a problem with immigration. I dont give a fuck about the monarchy. I think part of the reason the oldies voted out is because its not what people voted for back in the 70s and they feel cheated. I don't want a United States of Europe. I believe we can stand on our own two feet and be better off. I'm confident in our country. The EU is a stealth organisation. Free trade, yes, integration, no. If we're going to fuck up, lets do it ourselves. Lets not be told by 27 other countries to fuck up. Expansion will also come at a price. I could be wrong, I could be right.
It must be said though that I have taken a lot of abuse today, some of it a bit tasty. I'm not gloating as I don;t know if I've done the right thing. My mind on the EU was made up in 1978 and it hasn't changed. I'm a Labour man but this is bigger than party politics.

Jealous. not seen him in a few years. Therin lies the beauty of the Townend. In a thread about the EU is Neil Young.

1. Immigration
2. Sovereignty
3. That's it really.

I know you weren't asking me specifically Paul but there you have it any way.

If anyone has any Irish heritage you may find the following information useful. Basically if either of your parents were born on the island of Ireland (including Northern Ireland) you are automatically an Irish citizen and can apply for Irish ID and a passport. This would obviously entitle you to free movement to work and study anywhere in Europe. You don't have to move there, and you can keep your British nationality too.

My old man was born in County Antrim in the north. He was a British citizen but that's enough to entitle me and my children to Irish passports.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

Me too.great weren't it?

There you go. Disagree on EU, love neil young. It's always neil young.

Listening to neil young increases your feeling of well being by 100%

.....although "someday " had me in fucking tears!

Generally. He's done a few howlers though. Putin should listen to neil young. He'd be a bit more chilled.

First i'd heard of it was this morning.

I took a break from the tv this morning, flipped on absolute rock, and on came Rocking in the free world. Neil knows his stuff years ahead ;) I saw him 7 or 8 years ago supported by Seasick Steve. That my friends was a concert.

I think the 18-20 year olds would probably vote for Justin Bieber if he stood for election

Of course you're correct.
And we have also voted for WW3 and an asteroid strike

Seriously? It's plastered all over the side of that damn Boris Bus and they mentioned it in pretty much every interview I heard. Listening to Gove, Farage and Johnson trying to claim they'd spend £350m on an NHS they've all previously stated they wanted to dismantle would have been hilarious if it hadn't been for the fact you just knew there was some silly sod out there lapping it all up.

Fair do's, all very good reasons, wouldn't disagree with any of that tbf

More the merrier. Cheers.

was that in hyde park?

The un-represented Working class have spoken I'm afraid.
Deserted by Labour, and their increasingly middle class make-up.

The rich want to stay because why wouldn't they ?
If you're doing well, vote for the status quo.

The poor have seen wages suppressed by an unlimited supply of cheap labour.

I go back a few years when the labour party represented the working class first and foremost, not the latest fashionable PC World cause.

Ignore people for too long and they rise up and tell you to fuck off

The £350m on the NHS was a blatant  lie but the remain campaign told porkies as well.  Both behaved badly and dragged politics to a new low. Remain really fucked up because project fear got laughable. My wife asked me if world war 3 was breaking out today and when the plague of locusts was arriving. She was concerned when I told her our eldest would have to be sacrificed along with every other first born. talking of which my daughter was a remain but junker opening his gob did it for her.

Well Remain would have won, but those pesky Brexiteers, found out about their dastardly plans to rub out hundreds of thousands of voting papers.  Damn those cunning people who stood outside to lend people pens!!!

But the 'cheap labour' isn't going to disappear. All the BREXIT camp have pretty much said they want to continue to have access to the single market and freedom of movement is one of the stipulations for this to be allowed. The EU exit isn't going to do what many believe it will!

New Labour courted the middle class vote, they ignored the people they should of protected.  Blairs flooding of the working class areas with cheap labour foreigners.
Then, instead of hanging a few bankers from the nearest tree, it was us the poor who had to pay the price.
Their was the Tory "We're all in it together" fiasco. Is it any surprise those of us who have nothing to lose voted for something different.
This now leaves the wealthy who have benefitted from a corrupt regime crying into their Pyms. Can I be so bold as to suggest you start buying shares now while they are cheap.
Or alternatively, if you feel that strong about it, sell up, take your family and fuck off and chase the Euro but please, don't come back.

Brexit WILL work in our favour.

Tell me, how did you come to get that username of yours?

You forgot to say: FACT

I am by no means rich, I am however extremely lucky to have been free to move where I like in the EU, the last 11 years of my life, basically a 3rd of it, have been far and away the best because I have been free to do exactly that and I make no apologies for wanting that to remain the same, not only for me but for anyone else who has designs on doing so.

A huge amount of immigrants work for minimum wage in jobs most nationals feel are beneath them, go to 10 or 20 bars and restaurants in London and other tourist areas and tell me how many Brits you were served by.  The jobs are there, as evidenced by people who cannot even speak English getting jobs the same week they arrive in England - that is personal experience from people I actually know by the way - nationals simply cannot claim that their jobs are being stolen or wages suppressed if they won't take or entertain jobs in the first place.

I've said it before but sometimes I wish we'd never signed Austin and had him show up on here as a consequence.

I'm surprised the lazy English could be bothered to get out of bed and vote

It's not a question of being lazy, more a question of not wanting to do that kind of work.  I do it and I love it.  Feel free to twist that any way you like again.

Can someone explain this to me as a relative newbie..

I think KT has him mixed up with Dostoyevsky/shady.

inept and crass has been around for years but previously in another guise

I feel like the TEF needs an official historian. Where is fb?

inept and crass = Audrey = stfc Bournemouth

I think, I'm pretty sure at least.  If not I hold my hands up...

The latter showed up as a Poole fan and, to be fair estranged Swindon fan, when we signed Austin.

This is how my memory recalls it.

Strange how the views of this site vary so dramatically from the views of Swindon
I suspect there is a different demographic on this site than the general population of Swindon.
I may be jumping at conclusions here but.............maybe this site over index's on students and people who live abroad.
Thank you to the real people for taking back control

Rocky times ahead maybe, but we voted with our hearts not our heads.

I look forward with a sense of humour to the impending Scottish Independence vote !
Have you seen the fucking oil price !

They are three different people

First of all I send my sincere apologies for not being a real person, whatever that means, as I do not live in Swindon and for 6 months of every year I do indeed live abroad.

I think you'll find the real demographic at play here is much the same as the internet in general, it has been published that the vote to leave/remain was divided mostly by age, with the young voting to stay in and the older generation voting out.  The older generation generally are not so present on internet forums as the young...

They are?  I was sure at least that Audrey was Stfc B? 

Audrey was Kerry red before.

Ah, OK. My wires got crossed somewhere along that line. 

I'm still glad we signed Austin in that case.

Not sure on that, all the tv channels have shown young groups cheering about the result, I've not seen any pictures of masses of grannies doing the lambada or the like  down local high streets. That sort of poll makes me not want to vote in future, as it clearly isn't anonymous.

Backatcha

"Turkey Won't be admitted tom the EU until 3000"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/21/turkeys-chief-presidential-adviser-david-cameron-was-our-chief-s/

And before you say it was "The Torygragh" - it was live on Newsnight.
My point is - David Cameron lied to the British Public

http://www.politico.eu/article/britains-youth-voted-remain-leave-eu-brexit-referendum-stats/

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/young-voters-wanted-brexit-least-8271517

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028

First time I saw the figures I took them with a pinch of salt but they have been published by many outlets now.

German Government " we despise you and we will punish you "
BMW guy (and VW, Audi etc) " hang on a minute, we sell £30 Billion more products to Britain than they sell to us"
German Government " Sorry, got a bit emotional there - can we have a trade deal please "

Very few of the posters on here live in Swindon.....also there are probably no students; ex students, then yes, but wishing to acquire learning, should never be seen as a negative.

https://youtu.be/csbZMHYt18E


Like understanding how to use an apostrophe. Index's? What?

I think we need to feel the love over the coming days Ells. Falling out over the odd misplaced apostrophe isn't going to help.

Chalkie's Shorts has said pretty much exactly how I feel about it. I wanted remain to win because of the immediate effect on the pound, purely for selfish reasons, but I would have voted leave if I lived in England. I also would have preferred to reform the EU from the inside, if I thought that was at all possible. I think we may have done the rest of the EU a massive favour today in reigning in overzealous expansionism.

The reaction to people who voted leave has made me feel stronger about it since the result. Both sides have acted terribly the whole way through, but it winds me up that it can't be seen as a considered opinion or about anything other than immigration. Now certainly isn't the time to bicker, we need to forge ahead and see what we can make out of our future. I think it's great that people voted for the unknown rather than being scared off, and I really believe it can be made to work.

I do however feel truly sorry for anyone who is effected by where they I chosen to live, or with whom. I hope that the issue of movement is sorted quickly, and that there isn't too much nose cutting off by the EU to try and dissuade others from leaving.

People in many other countries in the EU would vote the same way given the choice - it's not just us 'little Englanders'.

I voted out because I believe in the country and its people to stand on its own 2 feet - I voted not to join in the 70s and haven't changed my opinion since.

The alternative, apart from not voting at all, was to vote for something I didn't believe in - which, if most of the remain voters were honest, neither do they.

Interesting that Boris is now in no rush to trigger the irreversible mechanics of the 'Brexit'. Why would that be?

He said early on in the campaign that we should vote to leave, to then negotiate a better deal.

He has also, as recently as February, been quoted as basically being a fan of the EU.

🤔

Whose up for another vote in 2-5 years time once all the main negotiations are done and it's presented to the

agreed, I think there is a fairly high number of graduates on here, most obtained before Blair turned your local Tesco one stop into a university too...

I've heard many a stupid argument from people in the area for voting remain. My own mother for a start.

But none of that matters. It's done. Reasons only become relevant if voting out didn't ultimately achieve what the people ego voted out want it to.

well yes, not going to happen though.

No it isn't,  far from it.
They may be elected in their country but the corrupt EU hierarchy who elect between themselves isn't democratic. The EU stinks of corruption,  it's as crooked as FIFA

I just have a strong feeling that EU exit is still not a done deal.  I hear all the calls to 'accept the result' and move on, but it's difficult to do that with the margin so close and the vote so split geographically and demographically (in terms of voter age).

My strong feeling is that this still has some way to run.  Could play out in any number of ways.  When the penny starts to drop...and the reality of (for example) a Johnson/Gove 'dream team' sets in, the prospect of refugee camps moving across the water to the Kent coast etc., and the now very real prospect of the UK fragmenting all together.  All it would take is for a movement to build - supported by one of the existing political parties or not - and the course of action will start not to look as clear cut as it does now.

I am torn.  I do accept the democratic validity of the vote, but also think that the foundations the majority for Brexit were built on are shaky and that we could find support for exit dipping back below 50% before too long.

Distinctly possible. It didn't take long yesterday for the word "If" to start cropping up in interviews. There are a lot of twists turns and backtracks to come over the following months.

But how are you going to judge whether the support has dipped below 50% without another referendum.

The pollsters, yet again, were fucking useless. Why do they bother and why does anybody take any notice of them.

What's done now is done. The EU want to start divorce proceedings straight away

Correct, mid-morning on Thursday No. 10 were actually briefing friendly news outlets and the cabinet that their polls indicated that Remain had won - so much for their pollsters!!  Cameron and Osborne fought a terrible campaign, Project Fear didn't quite work out for them!!

Had the margin been in say the 10's of thousands then yes...but the die is cast. 

The immediate danger aside from recession, is a clunking lurch to the right, as there will be a lot of leavers who'll feel betrayed when they realise immigration won't be noticably different.

Yep to all that.

We're at a critical junction.  My biggest concern is that I simply do not trust Johnson, Gove et al to take the best decisions in the near future.

I feel like I belong somewhere else at the moment.

I too agree. I am dreading the cost of living going up along with the price of fuel, even short term as I am struggling to make ends meet as it is.

Exactly right. Farage finished? He hasn't even started yet!

Over 1million signed a petition for a further referendum where it has to be at least 60% to leave if under 75% actually vote

That petition holds no weight whatsoever. Too many cry babies trying to take away democracy. Shall we make it a best of three referendum just for them?

I dont believe a word johnson says.in my opinion he's as much anti europe as corbyn is pro.it was pure opportunism on johnson's part as a way into power.thats my feeling anyway.

What terrifies me most about the whole referendum campaign from both sides is the complete lack of factual accuracy, and apparent disregard for ones that are actually presented which has happened. Gove's quote of 'Britain is fed up with experts' is deeply troubling, and part of a general strain of anti-intellectualism that seems to be taking hold.

Funny how we are now being told "facts" that were not mentioned before the event.for example apparently we do not have enough qualified experts to negotiate a release (radio 4 today)

The whole campaign has been about the divide in the Tory party....when the Tories find a new leader, and I'm not sure that it will be Johnson, (he may have skeletons in his cupboard) there should be a General Election.

I agree with ardiles. Something will happen that will stop us leaving. Cameron going and not signing up to leave until a successor has been found leaves a hell of a lot of wriggle room. A general election would do it. Run on an EU ticket and win and it would nullify the referendum. There are many ways not to ratify the referendum.

I think part of the problem is that they actually have no idea what is going to happen.

I think even the most optimistic of outers agree that we will have a period of financial instability (maybe even recession) until something gets sorted.

But none of them know how long & how bad that is going to be.

That's where the remain campaign suffered, they kept saying that only for their claims to be dismissed as scare mongering, but couldn't prove how bad it will get, because they (like everyone else) have no idea.


As for whether it's a done deal, doesn't have to be ratified by parliament, where the majority are against leaving.
Whilst it's unlikely that the MP's will block it (potential political suicide as the majority of the public voted out), will be interesting to see if they make the process more difficult.

I'm not sure it's entirely in our hands, the EU seem keen to get rid sooner rather than later and will not be keen to provide a smooth exit as it will send the wrong message to other EU member nations.

I see the exchange rates are up again today.

Granted, not back to where they were pre-Brexit, but better than yesterday.

E.g, Dollar was $1.22/£1 yesterday, now $1.34/£1.

BBC did have this covered pre-vote a couple of times.

I think it would be nuts not to press ahead and negotiate the exit now.  Far too few of the Remain camp really believe in the EU end goal (it's why we keep supporting new entrants to the EU, because we think that diluting power will prevent full integration).  It pains me to say it, but we need to get out quickly now and let the majority view have it's day, otherwise all hell will break loose (markets, people, business etc.).

I do think the worry is all a little OTT as well.  I'm off to work in the USA soon, and I've been on countless holidays, and that's a country with strict immigration rules.  The EU countries that rely on tourism are hardly going to pull up their drawbridges overnight, if at all.

And, as a staunch anti Conservative, why should the person running any given party have anything to do with whether or not we should accept the decision.  The whole point of not being in the club is so that we can choose to vote for who we want and live according the democratic process in place.

Most of the UK population bemuse me at times.  I'd love to have 50%+ agree with my view on Europe, but I just accept that I am in a minority.

This is why there must be another election...so that Brexit can get MP's elected or not.

We are still part of the EU, my guess is that when the terms of Brexit are agreed things will start to change.

I could be wrong on that and I really hope I am but all indications are that the EU will make an example of us to prevent a flood of other 'leavers'.

My thoughts as well. Seeing a lot UKIP members like Suzanne Evans being all triumphant about how the recession hasn't happened and things didn't get that bad. We are 24 hours in and haven't left the EU yet so the 'first day of freedom' that they are claiming hasn't actually happened yet. A long way to go with this....

I agree completely. I voted to remain but the country has spoken (just!) and we have got to get this over and done with.

As an aside I am glad that Osborne didn't resign yesterday, Cameron went and I wasn't able to enjoy it at all.

Oh I absolutely understand that we're not out yet, etc etc..

It was more a general observation that it went really low and has crept back up, all in 24 hours.

Although things are going to yo-yo over the next few months/years, that's for sure.

It might be that nothing happens, but Leave have already rowed back on that £350m a week, won't commit to reducing immigration, and haven't actually applied to Leave, so...

Well, that's the point isn't it? that voting out means the controlling Govt. can decide legislation and policy.  So if our Govt. wishes to put a block on immigration it can, but equally it can decide to open the proverbial floodgates if it wishes.

no it wasn't, $1.3229 was the lowest so it's only recovered 3% of the 10.8% drop it had in 6 hours, at the moment it's 14.5% lower than the year high!

Travelex was at $1.22/£1 today.

Although, it's only at $1.28/£1 today.

https://www.travelex.co.uk/

travelex are a foreign exchange company, they can make the rate what they like, check the spot rate
http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/GBPUSD:CUR

Then I stand corrected..

it is interesting to note that when Farage thought it likely that Leave might well lose on Thursday evening, he indicated that were that to be the case then the "battle" may have been lost but the "war" would certainly continue

Brexiteers would presumably not claim such an option applies only for "Leavers"?

51.9% against 48.1% answered Leave to the question : Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Why not pursue a strategy to allow the UK to ask the public pre- the decree absolute:

do you prefer the negotiated Brexit arrangements or the old EU arrangements? or similar?

We knew all about the EU but nothing about Brexit (GBP 350m. each week to NHS and controlling immigration?)

Will skilful negotiation and economic might persuade the EU to concede the rightness of the UK position and scrap just for us a core component of its own principles that access to its a free market must be accompanied by free movement of people?  Will the EU change the club rules for a non-member describing it as corrupt and sclerotic?  

We'll know soon enough and I suggest the British people are then given a real choice.

So my royal mail shares dropped 40p a share thanks to the Leave vote. Magic.

More and more I hear from remains is money money money. It's  a shallow world we live in.

All I heard from Leave was money money money, with facts and figures that were discredited or were forced to retract. Or about immigration.

The Leave campaign seemed to copy Trump's style of say whatever the fuck you like and damn the conscequences, if they were asked to retract it doesn't matter as those big figures stuck in peoples heads and that's what counts.

My babcock shares went down £1, but shares can go up as well as down, as they tell us. I very much doubt yours will be 40p down in a week or two.

Did any campaign even try to explain to the layperson just what the EU is? There seems to be an awful lot of people that were confused as to what they were voting on, let alone which way they should vote.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britons-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-after-voting-to-leave-it-a7101856.html

I saw that, it's partly why I'm asking.

You would have thought that the Remain campaign would have done that... but no. Corbyn had a brief go, talking about protecting workers rights, but it was all a bit half arsed.

I think there is a huge conflict of interest for the leader of the government (and this government in particular) to also have been leading on keeping us in the EU.

Judging by the fact BREGRET seems to be the new word doing the rounds I'd say not. As I suspected a lot didn't realise what they were voting on or the potential impact and are now regretting voting to leave.

Well no, we weren't actually told by anyone as far as I am aware - but it appears that many didn't bother to find out for themselves until it was too late.
I'm guessing many were taken in by the "promises" made by each of the sides, and made their decisions based on those.

Oh sweet Jesus no
Has anyone got any cyanide?

Why are people regretting anything?

Fuck all's happened.

If people were allowed to have an open debate on immigration years ago this would have been avoided.

But, oh no, the wooly liberal left, the media and politicians avoided the subject like the plague.

Even on here, one word wrongly  put, had the racist word thrown at them.

How bizarre, you'd think it would be a given that the electorate should be informed on what they are voting on.

I'm not whinging by the way, just stating an observation. Many elsewhere on social media are being embarrassingly hypocritical in their unwillingness to accept the result.

Because a lot of people are admitting using it as a protest vote thinking that we would remain anyway and also now some of the lies are starting to unravel they feel 'cheated'.

1.3 million difference. so you've got a few who didn't realise the consequences. Makes no odds. Some people always regret how they voted.

I imagine that rather a lot voted in for the 'wrong' reasons as well.

What's unravelling? What lies?

What were people expecting 24 hours after the vote?

Fair enough if, after a few years, things that were expected do not come to pass, but 2 fucking days?

Also, I notice the celebrity luvvies - just to keep up their street cred - are bemoaning the taking away of their childrens future.

Just what have they lost?

You've obviously never employed a Czech au pair or a Slovak cleaning wench  :)

Think this refers to the whole "we'll spend the saved £350m on the NHS" thing, the need to keep free movement if we want to maintain access to the market, etc etc.


Yes, it has been two days. Maybe nobody has lost anything yet, but it'll be at least two years until we're out of the EU. People have a right to be concerned about what they stand to lose. Particularly if you didn't vote for the austerity-wielding Tory government that you deeply mistrust.

The privileged pricks on the telly moaning about their futures being destroyed is grinding my gears. Yes, Hadley, your dad is only going to be able to buy you 5 cars now. If only the fools could see what they were doing!

Frankly I have a great deal of respect for the aged voters who favoured out because they've lived through it for years. They remember voting for the EEC, not the EU. They've seen everything it entails. You've just come off your gap yuh   :suicide:

Don't forget that the nice Chancellor, Mr Osborne, said that incipient financial crash caused by Brexit would necessitate an emergency Budget to the tune of £30Bn...in further cuts to public services and tax rises.

Given that there are already major cuts in the public sector pipeline....see teacher's strike next month...a 2008 style recession is a distinct possibilty.

First of all 'Bregret'??? Are you fucking serious? Secondly, where have you seen this word being used? Just for the record, I don't have any 'bregrets'. Jesus wept. :doh:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britons-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-after-voting-to-leave-it-a7101856.html

That is a meaningless piece-of-shit article. 'Frantically Googling'...really?? It doesn't even mention how many of these searches there were. And how do they know it wasn't 'Bremain' supporters making those searches? I wonder which side of the debate the so called 'Independent' stands on??

I'm not having a go at you here Ells but we really need to get away from the idea that absolutely everyone who voted to leave is senile, stupid, racist or all of the above. One small example - A girl who I work with is only 20 (extremely bright as it happens) and (to my surprise I'll admit) voted to leave, as did all her friends. My parents-in-law on the other hand who are, to be fair, cracking on a bit voted (much to my consternation given their views, but that's another story) to stay.

The superior, condescending attitude of some (many?) of those who wanted us to stay and who are making sweeping generalizations about all 17,410,742 of us and are making us out to be fucking simpletons is absolutely fucking me off.*

*Your post did not actually offend me at all Ells. I just used it as something to latch on to, to make my point. I don't find you to be condescending or any of that stuff. Although 'aged voters' was a bit of a naff turn of phrase - I'll forgive you for that though ;)

Good point - We're completely incapable of having a grown up, frank debate about anything even remotely emotive or controversial in this country without it turning into a slanging match. Sad but true.

I was actually on the side of the "old people".. That's what I meant. I was annoyed by these (extremely privileged) youths bleating on about how these 60+ people had ruined the country for their generation. I was using their terminology, or trying to cos I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it!

I know you were. That's why I wasn't offended  ;)

Ah I see. I agree we need to get away from these generalisations. But I was whinging about specific people - who were saying exactly that about the older generation. Not suggesting they're all like that. Given that I'm in my 20s and voted remain myself, I'm definitely not having a go at the demographic as a whole 👀

I've noticed from social media (so it must be right) that a lot of the 'IN' sentiment seems to have gone from 'It'll be a disaster' to 'it'll take a couple of years before it kicks in'.

You complain that people are incapable of debating without descending into a slanging match

In the same post you write:
Are you fucking serious?
Jesus wept. :doh:
That is a meaningless piece-of-shit article.
The superior, condescending attitude of some .....is absolutely fucking me off.

Why are people still voting on this thread? :idiot:

Cos there's not been a new euro stunners

The Euro stunners tables need updating. Chop chop woman.

I can't update them til I get Norn Irons.

If anyone had managed to explain in detail the EU to the UK public it is fair to say that 80%+ would have voted to Leave.

It has not, never has been and never will be a simple trading block.  It is not about securing higher economic growth for it's members (albeit, that is a potential benefit of the required integration).  It is, in simple terms, a political will to integrate nations economically, politically and socially.  It may never become a United States of Europe, but it will keep on trying to get to something a bit like that.

Oh, and this is just opinion, but I think it's probably also ironic.  Our biggest impact on the EU was to support the inclusion of more nations (a desire to reduce the power of others and prevent the move to a Super State once we realised the end game), which is how countries such as Poland, Romania and Bulgaria have joined - and then the free movement of those people to our country have probably been the deciding factor in getting many of the Leave votes.  We were too busy complaining and manoeuvring when we should have been preparing the infrastructure of our country to absorb the inevitable increase in citizens.

We need all the help we can get  :)

yarp, indeed we do. My father-in-law voted out as he doesn't like change, oops.

If anyone voted out because of immigration, you have been lied to.

https://youtu.be/rCghi2rVaWY

And the £350 million going into the nhs was also a lie.

I'm 51 (So one of the aged?). I voted remain as I believed (and still do) that there are more positives to being in The EU than out of it. The other reason is that I have absolutely no faith in the 'political elite' in this country, who have proved time and again to be self-serving cunts of the highest order.

Whether I agree with the outcome of the referendum or not, it's done and we all move on.

I don't believe they actually said this. I believe they said it could go to the NHS rather than would.

The Remain voters seem to cling on this as a statement (and I am sure we all know why).

Sent from my SM-G935F

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/nigel-farage-350-million-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-was-a-mistake/

Never mind, it was only a mistake on the leave campaign's part.

IDS is now on Andrew Marr claiming he never said about the £350m into the NHS.
Even with a poster up and the bus graffiti raised he stuck to his guns.

Politicians lie. It's what they do to get people to vote their way.its nothing new and nobody should be surprised. Now it's up to people to hold them to account. Cameron and Gideon told some whoppers as well. Both parties acted disgracefully.
Remain had absolutely everything in their favour and they fucked up. Leave didn't win,  Remain lost.
Labour and the Tories are now tearing each othercapart and neither are trusted. This referendum has got people interested in politics again but it is an absolute game changer in the UK and the EU, which may well fall apart now.

They did. Repeatedly. Morning after morning, on the Today programme, Gove, Boris and Farage, all made me spit coffee all over my kitchen as I listened to them, all previously stated that they'd dimsantle the NHS/replace it with private healthcare, said we should vote leave so that £350m could be spent on the NHS instead.

Oh and they painted it all over their fucking bus.

CS is right - politicians lie, all the time, on both sides and no-one should be surprised when they're caught out. But on this, the "Oh, no we won't actually be able to reduce immigration after all", and Boris' marked reluctance now to invoke article 50 to actually start the process of getting out. These were core planks of the leave vote and they're publicly ditching them, less than 48 hours after the result. No-one's surprised they lied, but these have to be some of the fastest U turns in political history. And it rather begs the question, if it's not about those core planks, what did the Leave campaign actually stand for?

The Labour party seems to have lost the plot.  The only way forward seems to be for lots of MP's to resign and allow new candidates to receive the party mandate, given the so many of them are now at odds with the party membership.  The oddity is that they seem to be so personally intertwined with the EU membership that they are missing the point that Corbyn is probably a good match to the new UK perception with the EU.  They seem intent on getting someone in who is pro-EU.

The Conservatiives, as always, likely to forget any sort of personal views subside in the interest of personal gain.  I fully expect someone like Johnson to get the leadership and then they'll just merrily forget they were ever pro-EU.

As for the EU, this will not dent it unless one of the founding countries gets twitchy and has similar thoughts.  They've put up with us for economic reasons alone, the on-going expansion will replace our market in time and they may even recoup our lost net contribution to their budget through more duties on imports/exports.  There is even a chance this makes them move more quickly to a unified version of a state.

Exactly, however nothng wrong in picking over the bones.  My particular favourite atm is the stories from the Welsh Valleys and places in the NE like Hartlepool, who receive most EU funding due to economic deprivation, having some of the bigger Brexit majorities.

These people must hope that some of our memebership contribution is now going to go their way.....maybe under a Labour government, but it doesn't work like that for free market Brexit. The opportunities seen by the likes of Farage/Gove etc can only be achieved by taking more of an ax to what remains of the post war social democratic settlement.

I think you're right about Labour and horlock is right about the Tories. One of the few positives to come out of this cluster fuck could be for both parties to disintegrate and see a massive realignment of British politics. The reason we are where we are now is that our political class of all shades is utterly discredited and out of touch with the electorate they claim to represent.

This story.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/view-wales-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale

Legislative power.  Choosing where more of the money is spent, choosing which laws to enshrine, choosing how to "control" immigration.  In the long term, protecting the status quo of us as a "country" on our own.

Not that this was ever covered much in the campaign.  Maybe because it just doesn't hit home emotionally enough to outweigh the economic argument in a country dominated by self interest.

Imagine now being out - would we vote to join an organisation who has an aim to absorb your country and eventually diminish it to a sort of devolved organisation like the Welsh Assembly?  In return you get a much better chance of economic growth

Perversely greater problems to come out of this, lie with Labour. I've been saying for a while that a split is inevitable, and we're starting to see that happening now.  An SDP style party could well emerge.

What is likely to happen on the right is more difficult to see....undoubtedly there's going to be plenty of disappointment that Brexit doesn't mean cattle trucks of people heading off to Eastern European gulags, rounded up by brown shirted state police.

What a mess it is. The government are now split and so are the opposition. Somehow we are meant to be running things ourselves now which is the irony of it all.

Slightly surprised by the comments of some that politicians lie therefore we've just got to deal with it. Surely the point of it all is to hold politicians to account when they lie in the hope that honest politicians take over?

Yes, I do believe there are some out there. I think Corbyn is one.

 Farage has come out and said don't blame Brexit therefore me for the incipient recession, it was coming anyway. All down to Osborne.

in my opinion you are entirely correct.i trust corbyn more than any of the labour mps who are trying to oust him.

Hardly ever post here - just like to say I hail from the heady days of Rogers/Hunt/Woodruff/Mike Summerbee.
I live in Scotland now.
I want to say how amazing it is (or maybe not) that most of your posts are in line with my thoughts.
Just posted this on FB - trying to find positives from this referendum (which should never have happened)

POSITIVES and semi POSITIVES from the EU Referendum

Not a sniff of ‘it was fixed’ from Bremainers
UK Parliament is being forced by petition to debate the result
Pre vote - the EU did not interfere in the UK debate
Post vote -much of the electorate still trying to work out what the EU really is
At the end of the ‘leaving’ process the UK electorate will understand the true nature of the EU
Intelligent people challenging the indiscriminate use of referenda
Fundamental fractures in the political parties – old ones to perish? – will there be new ones?
If democracy is at stake – there has to be a General Election by the end of 2016
Our ideas of ‘democracy’ will be challenged – but will it make any difference?
The growing awareness that ‘democracy’ is fragile and needs nurturing

Hmm, there could be a faint hope that some sort of PR is now pushed for as it is clear a sense of not being listened to was at play.  The current process means well over half the people in every constituency can feel frustrated.

Apparently, the petition for another referendum was started by a 'leave' voter. He started it before the vote at a time when it was looking likely that 'remain' would win.

Oops.

I seriously can't fathom how Remain failed in places like that. I can't believe people are that stupid

Same as Cornwall and quite a few others. No idea how they think leaving the EU is going to benefit them  :'(

This is where the disconnect between Labour and its natural heartland kicks in....past MP's for the area include Aneurin Bevan and Michael Foot.  Political giants, because the Labour movement was forged in the pits and steelworks....now gone.

Labour just assumes it can rely on people's votes in the remnants of these areas..while living in political bubble.

In my opinion Corbyn shopuld have been arguing for out, a position he's always held and presenting a case of how a Labour Brexit could provide opportunities for those left behind.

Agree Reg, most of the social policy enacted in the 90's/early 00's was during a Labour majority Govt. anyway, so could easily have been replicated even if out of Europe.  It seemed like Corbyn, and the Unions were acting out of fear/knowing it could be a while before they get that chance without the EU bossing the ruling right wing party in the UK.  This should have played right into their hands if they'd been on the Leave side of the fence - have a vision for what the future could be for the working class even acknowledging the fact that regional support grants from the EU would go.

On those grants - this is exactly the point people are missing.  Most people finally voted for"control" against economic certainty.  They'll be thinking they can replace those EU grants because we'll be able to re-distribute the same money ourselves (mixed up with the silly NHS claims).  Of course, the issue here is the ruling party are more likely to just cut this spending to balance the books.

Reg and RobT both right. There is a wider failure of Labour and the left in general to offer any coherent alternative to the choice between mainstream post-Thatcherite Toryism and the radical populist right. There was no left of centre argument properly presented for either staying in or leaving the EU, if Blairite Labour politicians are now turning on Corbyn for his failure to lead the charge, they should also be asking how they have become so far from their core support that this has come as a shock to them. Much of the shit doled out to ordinary working people by the coalition and the current govt was often only a continuation of neo-con policies started by New Labour. I'm no great fan of Corbyn's at all, but most of those agitating for his removal are looking to blame him for what was only the end product of a much deeper rot that they created

2 weeks and the Chilcot report comes out.  It'll be interesting if many people want to nail their colours to the Blairite mast after that.

Quite. I'd happily nail the war criminal Blair to any mast you have handy though if that helps? Love to see him sharing the same cell as Jack Straw and the Bushes.

Interestingly, the media made a lot of a a remain vote would be good for the 20 something's who were forward thinking.
The BBC on a number of occasions noted that this age group showed little appetite for the process.

The whole campaign appears to have completely passed them by. According to you.gov on Thursday morning, 57% of 20 - 30 year olds failed to vote.

But Corbin has continued the labour party elite's self perceived intellectual superiority to the common man. It's not their fault that the common man cannot operate at their intellectual level and get the argument. The common man then sees it as sneering, pompous fucking drivel that is not grounded in real life. Intellectual theory does not stop people losing jobs etc.
This is also the EU's attitude. Intellectual superiority that needs to be enforced on people because they are too fucking stupid. They don't need to even put the argument so certain are they.
The Tories are just vicious cunts. Bedroom tax etc. Fucking nasty.
It's no surprise the electorate have given a big fuck you. They are disconnected. Who is for them. For them it's worth a throw of the dice because what they have got is shit.

Good points but the electorate,far from giving a big "fuck you" have given a welcome to the likes of  johnson and gove.hardly men of the people i would have thought

Oh well played sir. Very much what I would of liked to of said if only I could articulate.
The problem with democracy is letting the bloody poor people have a vote. It was all right when they didn't use it.
Having delivered cars to TUC headquarters, I was appalled to meet university middle class proffesional Carbon copy's of each other. They could not possibly understand my life. I'm no longer a member of a union or the Labour Party.

Fewer than half of under 30's could be bothered to vote....so most didn't use it. 

Probably because the Leave campaign promised that anyone receiving EU grants would still get that money until at least 2020.

If you challenged the likelihood of that actually happening then you are a SCAREMONGERER!

I may be thick but i didnt think voters ages were recorded so how do we get these figures about the age demograph?

You're registered on the system, address/name/DOB etc.

When I turned up I have them my address and they found me and put a tick next to my name.. like a register.

I'd imagine it's from that database.

I think one of the polling companies (Ashcroft?) ran a poll on Friday. It also had the vote itself, hence knowing 75% of 24 and unders voted Remain, etc

So its only a sample poll then.thanks

There are no official figures but this is out there: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/06/how-did-different-demographic-groups-vote-eu-referendum

I don't understand Reg. Surely half (fewer than) of under 30's can't be most of the bloody poor people.

Ps "Bloody poor people" is a standing joke in my family. Long story but the gist is.... Rich farmer talking about my grandfather and his family in a loud voice so that my grandfather could hear him. This during the great depression.
My grandfather couldn't retaliate, however he became a Liberal councillor later in life and did all he could to foil tories such as the farmer.
I'm very proud to be a bloody poor person but could explain the chip I carry on both shoulders, as others on here would see it.

Interesting.but I deduce from that,rightly or wrongly that voters ages are not recorded.

Where does this leave UKIP now they've achieved their agenda and reason for being? No need to exist anymore is there? They've got their independence but it appears no fucker has the slightest idea what to do with it now.

They'll still be my protest vote. there is no other party that an indigenous working class guy could vote for.

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/747026084944838656

 :girlgiggle: proper good joke is that. One to carry on through all future generations in your family.

Why be 'proud' to be poor? It doesn't make sense. It's not an achievement.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a 'poor' working class man myself and grew up on a council estate wearing hand-me-down uniforms at school and had free school dinners ect. Being born to a poor family is not an achievement in the same way that being born to a rich family is not an achievement. There's nowt to be proud about, nor is there anything to be ashamed about.

Maybe I'm just being pedantic about semantics?

Can I be proud to have been born into an 'average' class?

Just so I know the rules..  :D

Middle classed twat  ;)

 ;)

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-muslims_uk_576e558ce4b08d2c563937ff

This C4 interview with Barnsley resident's about their reasons for voting out makes interesting viewing.  The first guy is very honest about his reasons.  I fear he's going to be somewhat disappointed however.

Whilst I imagine many people voted out for sovereignty/constitutional reasons, how many also made their decision for the same reasons as this guy?

Oh good lord!!!  :doh:

Best comment I've seen this even:

"Even Baldrick had a fucking plan"

A cunning plan at that!

'Liberals'* are so often intolerant to other people's opinions that they define themselves as the very thing that they are campaigning against. One's ironymeter gets overloaded.

Not directed at anybody on the TEF, just a general release of tension. I could easily end up falling out with some people that I like and respect on social media.

I'm going to bed. 'night all.

*I'm left myself.

And you will probably find just as many people who voted to remain part of an organisation that is headed towards further integration.  I bet if you asked them did you vote for a European Super State and the relegation of our parliament to a mere regional offshoot you'd probably get just as much head scratching.

Also, the lack of a plan from those running the Brexit campaign is actually fully justifiable.  The vote was to remove ourselves from the EU and regain full legislative control - it's then up to the incumbent Govt. to do with that what they wish, subject to all the usual rules and procedures of parliament.  A sensible Govt, would have devised an outline plan (which they most likely have done - but it creates better short term headlines to support your view if you suggest otherwise).

Not according to Chris Grayling, leave campaigner and Govt minister, on the Today programme this morning. He breezily said that the government would now "start discussions to form the team who would start devising plans to leave". And seemed genuinely taken aback when the interviewer asked whether or not it might have been an idea for them to have had a plan BEFORE the vote. That is, after all, what they (ministers, civil servants) are paid for.  The government, and the Leave campaign, are woefully ill-prepared for this outcome because even the Leave campaign didn't think they'd win. And the leading lights of the Leave campaign don't even agree on their preferred way forward, much less have a plan to deliver it.

Well it's a good job that they've got at least two years to sort it out then :-)

As long as someone steps up and actually initiates it, which no one wants to :)

My wife mentioned that last night, is that possible?

I saw an article over the weekend that they are shocked that the Govt aren't going to be providing them with what the EU did. Qu'elle Surprise amigos!

Because technically the Leave campaign are not the Government as such - the only people who can do anything with it.  If the Govt. really had zero plan for a Leave vote, then it just goes to show their incompetence, but I still really doubt it (what has most likely happened is the people in the civil service have worked up possible requirements in the background already).

Nobody on the Leave campaign could say "we'd spend the money on the NHS" for example (although they did), they could only really say "the Govt. can choose to spend the money on alternatives, such as the NHS, but it provides them more freedom and control to make the decision based on a National needs".  By voting Leave you are returning more control to our own Parliament - which for the next 4 years means a Conservative majority controlled Parliament.

Interesting article on that point.

Guardian: Will Article 50 ever be Triggered? (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/who-will-dare-pull-trigger-article-50-eu)

The vote produced a gun.  Someone now needs to pull the trigger.

I can see the gun being passed around the group, with no one wanting to keep it.

There's no plan.  And, worse than that, no one even knows who is going to write the plan.  There is a power vacuum at Westminster.  No effective Government, no effective Opposition.  Limbo.

Alex Salmond on Nicola Sturgeon:

'She’s the only politician over the last few days who looks like she knows what she’s doing and is setting a clear course.'

Spot on.

http://vimeo.com/169521261

It's all I've got to offer Im afraid.

It's all a bit opportunist though. I'm not quite sure she'll get what she wants, but it speaks to the Scottish people and even the ones who hate her (and there's plenty) will support her I think.

Nicola Sturgeon knows that she can't do anything while Scotland is part of the U.K, the U.K. Government has to approve a further independence referendum which they aren't going to do and she doesn't know when she'd have the referendum either. She's as clueless as the rest of them. The fact is Scotland is part of the U.K. And the U.K. Voted to leave the EU. Much as that really pisses me off,that's democracy.

Chris Grayling is a government minister. He said this morning that not only do they not have a plan, but they've not even put together the team to start formulating the plan. And seemed genuinely bemused that anyone might find this a problem. So no, the government don't have a plan, and while I understand Leave are not the Govt, if one of the senior members of both is unaware of any plan and bemused that there might need to be one, it rather suggests that the incompetence straddles both Govt and the Leave campaign

Before I looked at this thread this morning I was going to bring up Sturgeon myself. I think she talks a lot of sense.

Scotland has its own parliament and 100% of Scottish councils voted to stay. You could quite easily argue that they are being taken out of the EU against their will, which is not democracy.

You what? Sturgeon is talking about rejecting the democratic will of the UK - along with all the other bad losers.

Fucking unbelievable all these people unwilling to accept the democratic process.

Shameful.

Are you trolling or retarded?

Explain

Still waiting

The Scottish people voted for Remain. Given a choice between the EU and UK is a different matter altogether and I think it would be close run thing. Sturgeon is a pretty good operator. If I was in her shoes though I'd wait to see what the UK looked like post exit before triggering anything.

If she's canny, she'll use the threat of the vote to negotiate more money from the UK Govt to match anything they'll lose by leaving the EU (as no doubt they get proportionally more funds currently).

Still waiting or are you just going to leave it at your default position of throwing abuse?

Not really my job to explain, but I think it's pretty clear to most that the 'Scotland is part of the UK, and the UK voted to leave' argument is a weak one - particularly when it's also clear that the population of Scotland clearly voted to stay.

You can take the argument to its logical extreme ('My street voted to stay in, and we're being forced out against our will, so we the citizens of Acacia Avenue are going to declare independence...') but that doesn't help.  Scotland is distinct, with its own parliament/devolved assembly, and they have expressed a wish to take a fundamentally different path to England and Wales.  If 'democracy' entails trying to force them to take a path that they clearly don't want to take, then it may have had its day.

Personally, I think Sturgeon's playing a blinder.  I changed my position on Scottish independence on Friday morning.  The status quo is untenable.  If they went their own way now, I would quite understand.  The vote for Brexit was a vote to kill the UK.  The point was made time & again during the campaign, and was derided as 'scare-mongering'.  It wasn't scare-mongering.  It was reality.

Governed from Brussels instead of Westminster? Where's the independence in that?

But a Scottish vote holds no more sway than anyone elses in a UK referendum.

Scotland should hold a 2nd referendum, leave, then apply to join the E U.

This wasn't a party political referendum

Fucking hell, I really shouldn't have to explain this. I guess you went for the latter option.

Sturgeon calling for an independence isn't rejecting the democratic will of anything. In fact you could easily argue the opposite because of 2 points.

1) Scotland didn't vote for the Tories, so didn't vote for the referendum.
2) Scotland voted 100% to remain.

Now, as a country with their own parliament they are more than entitled to prepare legislation against something they didn't vote for. They voted to stay in the UK, granted, but EU membership was something promoted as a reason to stay (as well as others).

It's a reaction. Not a rejection. And Sturgeon's reacted better than anyone.

WTF.

You literally just said that was rejecting democracy.

If they want to stay in the EU, fine. But they should get a mandate from their people to join the EU and leave the UK.

She can't have it both ways and on that basis, the vote would be close as they would have to join the Euro.

At the moment she has a mandate to stay in the UK ( Scottish referendum ) and a mandate to Remain in the EU via the recent referendum. Would the Scottish people vote to remain in the EU if it meant leaving the UK, which nobody knows. She is holding some aces at the moment and it is to her advantage to keep them in her hand.

The only real winner in all of this? David Cameron. Exit strategy from from being PM, something he's long been considering, has played out perfectly for him. Leave campaign getting most of the post-ref heat, Labour party tearing itself apart, BoJo and Gove on a hiding to nothing...

Lost the job he fought so hard to get, massively fucked up a campaign he expected to win, probably sowed the seeds of his own party splitting up, destroyed his own legacy, possibly going to be seen as being the man who kick started the destruction of the UK. Don't think so

Mmm and i was ridiculed for suggesting some people had racist motives for leaving

He no longer wanted the job he "fought so hard to get", doesn't have to deal with the aftermath of a campaign he expected to win (privately, suggestions are that that expectation wasn't as strong as it may have been portrayed) and, as most career politicians, I can imagine he's not too concerned about the long-term future of the Tory party.

Even if all that is so, (and to take but one point I don't believe for a minute he no longer wanted to be PM until the he lost the vote) but he was and is deeply concerned with his "legacy" which looks pretty fucked right now

If Cameron was that interested in party unity, he should have stayed neutral. He could have let the Tories have a free vote instead of openly defying him. They would split on the issue but still been one party. When the vote came in, he could then lead whichever way it went having been impartial. That would have been better for the Tory party. He's shown himself not to be leader but a pretty selfish cheerleader. He took a massive gamble ( with everything in his favour )  and managed to lose a one horse race and created civil war in his party and given the Scottish just about every opportunity to exploit the dismantling of the UK. On top of also being best mates with a Chancellor who manages to fuck up just about everything he touches - pie tax. If that's not enough bedroom tax, disability allowance cuts etc.
What a loss to the UK. Now he can repeatedly put his nose in the trough with his mates. What a bloke. What a great legacy but somehow he'll come out of it alright unlike the common bloke in the street. 

The news today has plenty on large and medium company share prices being down, significantly so in some cases. Tax-payer-owned RBS shares are nearly as low as they were during the global economic downturn.

The pound is down again too (currently at a 31 year low against the dollar), if it stays down too long then imports (of which we do a lot more than we export) will become more expensive, and inflation will kick in.

The second referendum should be about whose face goes on the £1million note.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't suggesting he deserved to be well remembered, he's a complete arsehole IMO, just that his "legacy" was important to him and he's fucked it up. Which is different from the very comfortable retirement he'll still be able to enjoy. Whether the rest of us do remains to be seen

 As regards the Sweaties....it will be years before they join the EU.  Firstly the Act of Union 1707 will need to be unpicked, then they will need to apply to the EU, and satisfy the criteria of joining the Euro and Schengen...again which will take years, even if mainly the Spanish don't apply a veto.

Well Sturgeon has already spoken to Brussels about this.. They may not have to. We'll see.

The people have spoken we all need to move on.

We need the best politicians with the highest economic competence and the best lawyers/negotiators to steer us through.

I do believe the decision made by the electorate is the right one, but we all need to pull together now however people may have voted. These farcical calls for a 2nd vote are an embarrassment as are these ridiculous petitions

I think it's easier to say 'we all need to pull together now' when you don't think that Brexit is a really shit idea.  I'm certainly struggling myself.  I think the whole thing is a misguided fuck up of epic proportions that our kids, in particular, are going to pay for...so I'm going to need a little more than 72 hours before I dust myself down and put the whole episode out of my mind.

I agree with you about the petitions, which are embarrassing.  Democracy is democracy.  The decision is valid.  Let's see how it works out.

Well said. There needs to a proper split, absolutely no point in negotiating something which looks like membership without the opt outs, and therefore effctively worse.

These calls for people to "move on" are irritating the fuck out of me. This is something that has actually ignited a lot of interest in political discussion amongst those who were previously unwilling or unable to engage. Discussion should be encouraged, even provoked, as clearly the 65/70% of 18-24 year olds who didn't bother to vote (apols if stats are off slightly) need a wake up call.

I've got classes of 12/13 year olds wanting to know why they get no say in their own future. They need to know why discourse of this nature is so damned important.

Most MPs chose which side of the referendum to support based on what they perceived as the best bet in either furthering their political career or just keeping their job.

They will easily backtrack on their 'convictions' if there's a chance of getting further up the greasy pole.

Don't remember anyone consulting me on anything when I was 12. You get a say when you're 18.

If you can't be arsed to exercise that right, tough shit.

All part of today's feeling of entitlement and then boo hoo when you get kicked in the nuts.

The non voting 18-24 year olds will have had ample opportunity to engage in the democratic process through PHSE, which has been compulsory for the last 15 years. It could be argued they haven't been arsed could be laid at the door of schools who've reluctantly undertaken this, as it's not seen as a proper subject, in a half arsed way.

I don't get all these "my kids future being affected" statements. How so?

Maybe they're worried their little darlings won't be able to go and get pissed up in Magaluf and make them proud.

I totally agree. But why isn't it seen as a proper subject? Because the government don't value it. I had a Y11 class for PSHE (once a fortnight) this year. They had exercise books dating back to Y8 which nobody has ever bothered to look in. Why would you? Not examined, so books don't get scrutinised by the higher ups = no point wasting 2hrs of valuable time marking them.

But did you give a shit when you were that age? Did you have something this important to care about? I'm assuming (please correct me if I'm wrong) no. But the point is, at least they give a shit. Our in-school referendum had a turnout similar to actual thing, which is remarkable I think. So discussion ought to be fostered.

Which kind of proves my point...as an educator didn't you feel the importance of this time?  Shouldn't that have been your motivation, rather than relegated it in importance?  Don't you think kids pick up on this....oh, look sir doesn't care so why should we?

Because they'll be the ones still picking up the pieces in 20 years time when the country is still dealing with the fallout.

National legal systems and bi-lateral trade agreements don't get negotiated and agreed overnight. And all of that costs a fuck load of money that the government doesn't have for the foreseeable future.

Elect a Corbyn government scrap Trident, and we'll be swimming in ££'s.

Corbyn is toast, and if the labour membership (supportership, with their system) saves him then the Labour Party will split. Interesting times ahead left and right.

That's what I have always been taught.  Play the game, absorb your sense of injustice and congratulate the winner.

Unless its Swindon Town

In this case the mandate is a wish to leave the EU rather than remain on known terms as renegotiated.

Once these terms are defined, the electorate is entitled to say whether it wishes to leave or stay on an informed basis.

Wait for an outline Brexit to be agreed and choose by vote the preferred system with Johnson recommending his Brexit terms (rather than fantasy) to  us.  Not saying you're wrong Outlet but usually it takes more than a few days before the electorate are told that no promises were made, only visions expressed which unfortunately cannot be implemented.

Farage himself said he'd have problems accepting a 52:48 vote, yes 52:48 exactly.

How many of the leave campaign does it take to change a lightbulb?

"We didnt say there was a lightbulb'

Maybe because the children you teach deserve an education? Thought teaching was supposed to be a vocation?

 Or just move to Europe?

The Labour party MP's are walking a think line right now.  They seem oblivious to the fact that they supported the losing side of the ballot and also that they are now in a minority in terms of views in their own party.  I would not be surprised to see the party rip itself apart now with de-selections of MP's or people maybe even (unlikely) waking up and smelling the coffee.

Might be good if this leads to five or six main parties and an absolute need for PR of some nature.

Not to mention that most of them were as much responsible for selling the people who rebelled against the establishment on Thursday down the river as the Tories. Blairites especially, they are the root cause of the rot. Don't get me wrong, Corbyn's hopeless, but if Labour think they can sort things out by getting rid and going back to business as usual with another Westminster clone, they're in for one hell of a shock

Think you're right and tbh seems the only way forward to me. Rip it up (on both sides of the political spectrum), get rid of the lot of them and start again

In the Times this morning (I can't link due to the pay wall), Johnson and Cameron in agreement that gaining access to the Single Market is a more important consideration than restricting Free Movement.  Yep, you read that correctly.

So in a nutshell, anyone who thought that a Leave vote would allow the country to regain control of its migration policy was sold a lie.  They didn't tell you, but this was never on the table anyway.  You can add it to the Lie List...along with the £350m/week NHS funding pledge.

Dear me! Jeremy Hunt thinking of throwing his hat in the ring.

Good luck with that Jezza!

heard him on the radio this morning and in a field of delusional halfwits, he still managed to stand out. Thinks we can get a "Norway+" option where we get a Free Trade Agreement but without the Freedom of Movement and, get this, we can negotiate all this *before* we trigger Article 50, then the public can vote on whether they like the negotiated agreement in, erm, either a second referendum or maybe a general election or something and then the new government triggers Article 50 with their nice fresh new mandate. Or doesn't if the anti-Noway+ faction won. Then we all go and live happily ever after with our shiny EU subsidies for Jeremy Hunt's new unicorn farms. He made Johnson look like he'd done his homework. Muppet.

Farage is currently in Brussels.

Quick, someone, anyone, invoke article 50 and close the borders.

Complete unanimity in Brussels on the point that if the UK wishes to have access to the Single Market, we have to agree to Freedom of Movement.  It's a point that Cameron, Johnson and, now, Hunt, have all accepted.

So Leavers, which did you vote for?  It's both of these, or neither of them.  They come as a package.

If you thought you were getting Single Market access without Freedom of Movement, you voted on a false prospectus.  You voted for something that was never on offer.

At least we've still taken back control though.

Somebody on Jeremy Vines radio 2 show yesterday said the best thing the country could do was have Boris as PM and Farage as his advisor.

Why the fuck are severely mentally deranged people allowed on a telephone.

IDS has since said that Leave's promises were actually "a series of possibilities".

They are looking more and more like a series of improbabilities to me.

I think you might be surprised by the answer from most - they would forego membership of the Single market for that control.

Lets not dress up to be something it isn't.  The Single Market has huge benefits for business who wish to trade in the EU, but non membership does not mean you cannot trade with the countries within the EU.  As it happens, even if we fully withdrawl, it will take years before we won't align with the required regulations anyway.  The argument is that any business in the future wishing to trade with the EU can decide themselves to accept the required standards to do so, but the Govt. doesn't have to legislate - so companies who do not trade with the EU can avoid the "red tape".

The Single Market itself is my main issue with peoples view on the EU, they often think it's what the EU is all about.  It's not, it's much more than that.  That confusion is why we had to get out - because those who were anti-EU establishments will have continued to remain just as frustrated.  It was never heading in the direction most people want, no matter how many times we kept repeating the mantra of being able to shape it from within.  We were "put up with" as net contributors and a decent export market.

Whoever gets control of the plan needs to make sure it heeds the message from the voters (no matter how daft we may think they are).

Farage's speech to the EU Parliament....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/28/meps-boo-nigel-farage-insults-in-european-parliament

They have the vote as well, don't ya know?  

Shit, no I had forgot that. We're doomed!

That's because they were.  All the Leave option gives us is the power to make decisions.  We can carry on as is if the Govt. of the time wants to, just not as members.  Say the Lib Dems win the next election, they'd want to be in the Single Market and open up the borders, there choice.  All the voters did was give the Govt. of the day the mandate to make their own laws in areas where the EU had superseded (like competition policy, VAT etc.)

I would happily see us untied to Europe completely other than trading with the them the same way as we would trade with India for example. I don't want us tied to them in any way other than trade deals. I could happily forgo the "mates rates" and introduce tariffs, which would affect them more than us. Its a big wide world out there to trade with.
It is very easy to vote out, accept that a lot of what they said was lies and not be a racist. although I do fit the old male and pale stereotype. My mind was made up in 1978 and it hasn't changed.
This is no different to someone winning a General Election, they now have to deliver and which Government has delivered what they said they would. Its politics. Its sad but its the real world. People lie.
They all lied. Where is Gideon's punishment budget? Where is World War 3. OK, they might be coming but ..........
There is a sizeable element that would take economic hardship etc to say they were right. They cannot accept the majority of voters had a different view so demonise them. The abuse handed out to some leavers has not been good. They are as intolerant as the people they accuse, although the accused may have very valid reasons unconnected to racism etc.

Osborne has said he was right, his successor will have to implement this, to stabilise public finanaces.

It's funny you speak about tolerance here, because it is exactly this kind of isolationist, "set in my ways", backwards and out dated attitude that I am intolerant of. I don't mind people having different views, but I do mind ignorance.

The key difference is that neither of the main parties fully allied themselves behind the Leave campaign and even if they had this wasn't a General Election and so nothing has changed as far as the balance of power across the parties goes.

Cameron stepping down and the upcoming fight to be PM should go some way towards that but until the dust is settled on that the people who said they would deliver, and importantly the people who claimed it was even possible to deliver what Leave promised, are not in a position to do so.

  So 40 MP's support Corbyn  :), but he will win a leadership contest.  :headhurts:

I want the UK to trade with the world. I'd rather spread the trade around the world rather than concentrate most on a smaller area. I want us to strike our own trade deals. This not only spreads the risk that if Europe crashes we would be ok but the developing world opens up new opportunities. This provides flexibility. I'm not sure how this is isolationist. I'll admit to being set in my ways as are most people. I'm mot sure that looking to the developing world and wanting to not put all your eggs in one basket is backward looking or out of date.
I just think we can do it alone leaving us flexible and not tied to the fortunes of 27 other nations. I couldn't give a shit if we trade with France or Uruguay.  This won't happen overnight and I'm pretty sure things will get worse before they get better. Being a big importer of goods, I'm sure other countries will want to trade with us. For me, thats a short term price worth paying.
I'll agree that it may be a view that is not shared by many on here including yourself but its hardly ignorant. Its different, not ignorant.

The leadership contest should have taken from the membership when they put the wrong Milliband in charge.

I'm convinced the British political scene would look very different now had they made the right choice back then

David's subsequent career has confirmed in spades or should that be spads, that a bullet was well and truly dodged.

Apologies to drag this back up, but wanted to address this point.

Thankfully, we did cover the referendum as part of our Humanities curriculum, through tutor time activities etc so all students had equally access to arguments on both sides (possibly in PSHE as well, but having had Y11 who are long gone, I wouldn't know). There was a referendum held in school for students to vote in, which saw a 56% turn out. Not amazing, but better than the turnout for 18-24 voters on the real deal! Post-result portions of lessons were dedicated to questions they had on the referendum, which I did my best to answer.

The problem for state schools as guardians of the conditioning of the lower orders, is that a bit of engagement, with the structures of society, is desirable, but not too much that people might think for themselves.

This has reminded me of my own school days, when with a chum motivated by IT (International Times), we produced an "underground" school magazine.   

I named it Lamp-post, the hyphen may be inaccurate, but what the hell we were young and rebellious.  Shed light on the truth sort of idea.....we lasted 1 issue, before being carted off to the Head. Now boys, we can't have this sort of thing, you're both bright, off to uni don't rock the boat nudge nudge. If you want to write articles then put them forward for the school magazine.

That was me tamed....it had served its purpose to attract some of the nice middle class girls.

Gove stabs Johnson in the back and stands against him for the leadership. Now that makes things a little more entertaining...

gove  as pm....shudder.. Boris as pm ... shudder, dear oh dear.

Has Brienne of Tarth (Angela Eagle) declared a leadership contest for the labour party yet ?

the whole country is a shambles in a state of limbo. hope they sort their shit out PDQ

Hopefully the Head of State is having a quiet word in the background, and knocking a few heads together.

3 PM today supposedly, looking like she won't be the only one but would be far more candidates if Corbyn went - they don't want to split the anyonebutCorbyn vote.

When was the last time both major parties had a leadership contest at once? Must have been a long time.

Eagles has the most irritating voice, for that single reason I hope she loses and is never seen again.

Won't be Boris....he's not standing now  :)

Just goes to prove that he was pro EU, assumed we'd stay in despite his out campaign and has now screwed himself over.

More like Gove has screwed him over....now looks like it will be between Gove and May, who gets presented to the Tory membership.

Either way there should be a General Election....but won't be.

Between who? The Tory party are in bits, but issues pale in comparison to the Labour party, who aren't going to be in any position to compete. All the while the SNP are pushing to become the Opposition...

Exactly....which is why there won't be.  In the meantime Arron Banks, UKIP funder is looking to set up a new party of the right to take the Brexit rump of Labour.   

Johnson is a petulant child who delights in stirring shit up but has crapped his pants at the thought of actually having to deliver. He's faced with the prospect of either:
reneging on everything he acted as the figurehead for for the past few months, never thinking he'd actually have to deliver it and then facing the backlash if he backs out which would kill his career stone dead
or:
being the PM who has to trigger Article 50 and negotiate a way out and he knows he can't deliver on that either. He doesn't have the skills, he doesn't understand the detail and he doesn't have the patience to master it. He's happy instead to hand that poison chalice to Gove

It's Gove who's been screwed over here.

UKIP2 - shedding Farage, who's served his purpose and now become a toxic liability.

Maybe, just maybe, this shit show will trigger the political revolution we need, and lead to a creation of a true and consistent left-leaning (but not packed full of extreme left Corbynistas) alternative Social Democratic Party.

Along with the people of Britain...

Well, obviously, but since when did anyone care about us, compared to the ongoing soap opera of a few hundred Westminster careerists?

Oh marvellous, the stupid haired bumbling buffoon has looked at the mess that needs sorting and bottled it. And he's left us with Gove as one of  the candidates, a man who merrily screwed around seemingly hap hazard with the education department - so ideal to further shaft the country.

In the meantime the opposition are almost as laughably bad. UKIP are, well, look at Ferage at the EU - liquid lunch. Then there is Labour whose own MPs want to oust their boss, but whose party members seemingly don't. The Lib Dems are finished for a decade or three on account of abandoning their own key policies in the coalition.

Marvellous, just marvellous.

I admire your optimism, but I suspect those in power that can actually change things, won't. Turkey/Christmas syndrome. The self serving power hungry *****

It's all quite entertaining if nothing else.

it is, good job it happened with not much else  going on in the world of politics really.

Johnson pulling out of the leadership race is the first good news there's been this week.  And to think just 24 hrs ago he was the 'front runner'.  Beautiful.  Self-centred, narcissistic pr#ck.  I've never liked him.

Rarely has a single line so epitomised the importance of correct punctuation - you were one full stop away from disaster there.

:D

Just needs a damning iraq war report now to leave a few anti corbyn labour mps who supported it red faced to make things even more interesting.

Isn't that why the Blairites are pushing so hard to get him to stand down this week? Because they know Corbyn will call for Blair to face war crimes charges? Does he have any more ability to make that happen if he's still leader of the official Opposition than as a normal MP?

Exactly.

Oh dear....

http://swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/14589187.Woman_to_lead_Brexit_vote_protest_through_town/

It went to a democratic vote, jeez.

it is the reason.he will have less clout but it will be mighty embarrassing for the new leader be it a blairite

Gove's wife's email re Johnson:Gove ticket:

Interesting to note how the anti immigrant, pro British sovereignty duo, according to Mrs "Gove", are more concerned about the support of one non-taxpaying Aussie now that they have the 52:48 mandate of the duped British electorate.

Bavk to business as usual.

I normally find British politics boring as fuck, but this is getting funny. The yanks have their turn coming up soon as well.

It could also be that he's a total tit. Not many MPs left around now with any personal ties to Blair - quite a few who voted for Iraq, sure, but mostly from the backbenches.

I actually quite like some of Corbyn's politics, but I can't see how anyone can defend his ability to lead a piss up in a brewery.

I'm here also. I'm a big fan of Corbyn, a big big fan but he's just not a very good leader....

I like the fella too. I also don't think he should quit. If he's not re-appointed by the party members then fine but until then he should stay in his job. There is a process for this and he is right to see that exercised.

yep

 Carney is now saying, a cut in interest rates is necessary, presumably to take the rate into negative territory.  Now I'm no economist, but this seems like a bad idea. 

 

Today's massive facepalm launch of the anti-Semitism report (and his whole handling of that) suggests you may have a point :)
Sure, but if those "rebel" MPs who are desperately hoping for a return to the status quo where they get rid of the difficult beardy man and go back to awarding themselves career points in a Westminster bubble think that Corbyn is the main problem they've got one hell of a shock coming. Corbyn's lacklustre campaigning didn't help the remain campaign but it's not why Labour failed to get their vote out. And if Labour MPs don't recognise that they WILL get wiped out in the next election - UKIP or UKIP2 will do to them in the North and the regions what the SNP did to them in Scotland, because there's  whole swathes of (ex)Labour voters who were sold down the river by Blair and his acolytes and they are fucking furious about it, and that is why many of them chose to kick the whole political class up the arse last week.

Sadly it looks like the PLP STILL hasn't noticed that, and plans on sticking it's head up it's arse and blaming it all on Corbyn. He isn't helping but there is a far deeper rot in Labour's support which started under the reign of many of those braying most loudly for a return to business as usual. Those MPs must take 90% of the blame for the tidal wive that's about to hit them that they seem so blissfully unaware of.

A rate cut would hit savers.

Guess which age group tends to have the most savings...

As I said to you earlier:

The Scots backed remain 64%
Labour voters backed remain 63%

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

In a poll of approx 12,000 people

(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/50c8e51ce4b052a90587d0c7/t/526d1e3ae4b09b70853e0cce/1382882874833/PiggyBank.jpg)

That's how polls work mate

Lovely. Labour's core support are deserting them in droves and have been for a decade due to exactly the kind of complacency and taking them for granted that we've seen in Westminster over the past few days. I'm no fan of Corbyn's by any means but he's achieved something none of those looking to oust him have - re-engage with the grassroots. If the PLP kick him out, many will see that as a further betrayal.

The only question is whether he can beat the Torys or not. The grassroot support is unwavering

Don't think he'll get a chance to find out tbh, looks like the PLP are set on cutting their own throats. Be interesting to see what arises from the ashes of Labour's self-destruction, hopefully something actually half useful. If the Tories could self-immolate as well, we may even end up with something approaching a functioning democracy

He'll be on the ballot unless they cheat him out of it. So the only two available options are, he wins on a mandate of mandatory deselection thus strengthening his position or the 'moderates' cheat him out of the ballot and make Labour truly unelectable for the foreseen future.

In fairness, a Labour split into a social democratic (blairite/brownite/whateveryouwanttocallit) and a true socialist party would be for the best for everyone were it not for the fact that our electoral system effectively forces them to co-exist as neither would win many seats alone under FPTP.

Also, I'm really not convinced that all this re-engaging with the grass roots Corbyn is supposedly doing is actually legitimate. He's very popular with angry lefties, especially in London, but there's no chance he's going to win the voters that have deserted Labour for UKIP, is there? You might argue that appealing to those people means watering down his beliefs and that's clearly why he's not doing it, but the problem here is whether it's better to have your principles in perpetual opposition or compromise on a few of them to potentially gain power.

It seems like either path is laced with trouble at the moment.

Its interesting to see that we (the labour party) have by far the largest membership since Corbyn has been elected.  Including about 60k extra in the last week.  About double the membership of the Tories, yet our elected representatives are seeking to deny us the opportunity to vote on who is going to lead us.

Corbyn is continuing to be the victim of a nasty stitch up campaign which he is bearing with remarkable dignity and grace.  Im amazed to see (well not amazed at all) that BBC gobshite Laura Kuennsberg is continuing to report only bad, and fake news about Corbyn latest being her proudly proclaiming that 500 councillors have signed a letter against Corbyn.  Those councillors are now coming out saying 'I didnt sign that'.  As the contention that 'all labour MEPs have signed a letter for him to go' has been debunked with MEPs saying - I didnt sign that please retract.

The ferocity of this at the moment and the wheeling out of characters such as Allistair Campbell really does make me wonder whats going on, what with Chilcott finally reporting next week and Corbyn having been against the Iraq war and suggesting Blair should be put on trial for war crimes.

Its a nasty little badly planned coup.

I have no particular love for Blair, and I agree that people like Campbell and their ilk are jumping on this with one eye on their own ends, but you must see that this is a lot wider than some sort of Blairite cabal? 80% of Labour MPs voted that they have no confidence in Corbyn, including people like Lisa Nandy, Owen Smith and Ed Milliband who are nobody's idea of Blairites and in fact were (the first two at least) vocal Corbyn supporters.

Like them or not, these are MPs who campaign for Labour on doorsteps and know that Corbyn just isn't popular with the swing voters that you need if you're to win a majority. He's incredibly popular with the people who like him, I agree, but strength of feeling does not amplify your vote.

Corbyn could lead an opposition or niche party well, but not a party of government under the current electoral system (which, regrettably, seems unlikely to change).

Summed up very well. The biggest problem with Corbyn for me is that he's only any good at talking to people who already agree with him. He's completely tone deaf at connecting with a wider public or indeed anyone much outside his ultra-left cabal - the (admittedly distorted) bollock drop at the launch of yesterday's anti-Semitism review being a case in point.

I'd still say though that irrespective of the motives/backgrounds of the plotters the PLP is showing no signs whatever that they actually "get it" - it all reads as very Westminster bubble right now and if they don't pull their heads out of their arses fast, they're going to take a kicking at the next election that I don't think Labour will be able to recover from.

Just seen this.  Quite right.  :D

Just when you thought there was nothing that could make the whole clusterfuck worse, here's one suggestion that could:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/30/tony-blair-hints-at-role-as-brexit-negotiator-in-eu-talks-that-w/

Can't we get just get on with jailing this arsehole?

I think arsehole is being nice

Well, yes, I'm a very nice person :)

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_57737efce4b081f48abaa055?edition=uk

Think this sums up the various crises currently gripping our political masters very nicely:

https://www.facebook.com/TheTabOfficial/videos/674252449389134/

Prefer this one, even if it's Soviet-sponsored:

https://www.facebook.com/RTUKnews/videos/1625038167786060/

Looks like Farage has resigned

Wouldn't go too early on that, last time he resigned, it was like a bloody yo-yo.

Lord Farage has a certain ring to it.

He who should not be named..

Well UKIP are now no longer relevant, he'll probably hook up with the tories to try and weasel his way to PM, the odious cunt.

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

They're more relevant than ever. He's no longer relevant. With the right man in charge, they're going to make huge gains in Labour strongholds, particularly when Brexit doesn't deliver on the promises made. Already completely the third party in this country.

One mans freedom fighter is another mans scrotum-faced cunt

More likely he's under investigation for various financial misdemeanors (and about time too) and given his recent meeting with Murdoch he's going to hop foot it to America and go on Fox News

Funnily enough he hasn't resigned from his post as an MEP. And since the £ has dropped (he is paid in Euros for this post) he has actually had a net pay rise! This Brexit business is working out alright for some.