New beginnings - 25% Truth, 80% Bollocks

[No Longer Posh Red]

Again you are missing the point I was making. What your saying is correct but nothing to do with my point. I replied to a point that stated Clem wouldn't lose any money because it was through Axis.

If he’s been taking money from Axis (which has been taken from a third party) and then loaning that to STFC, it’s not legally his money.

STFC goes into administration, Axis gets peanuts, then they go into Administration & the people whose money it was in the first place are the ones that lose out, along with STFC. Guess who is only party who doesn’t ?

[Batch]

Is that strictly true though? He is a creditor of the club to the tune of was it 8m? Club goes tits so does his investment?!

[No Longer Posh Red]

Is that strictly true though? He is a creditor of the club to the tune of was it 8m? Club goes tits so does his investment?!

I thought the point is that he’s not now personally a major creditor, it’s one of his companies.
The question is whether he can take money out of that company (having moved it from another company in the group) which has come from a third party (whether legitimately or not).

There has to be a reason that he’s moved the debt from himself to one of his companies.

[RobertT]

Is that strictly true though? He is a creditor of the club to the tune of was it 8m? Club goes tits so does his investment?!

Yes - his business, Axis Football Investments would be the primary creditor, and as such would be left with a debt that wouldn't be paid.  As that is the sole purpose of that company, to channel money, then in turn it would likely be liquidated/placed into Admin, owing other Axis companies a bunch of money.  His "investment" would be up the shitter BUT, it seems possible not all of that investment was his.  It's allegedly money his businesses owed other people.

It's alleged that he got services and goods without paying, sold those services/good onwards and took the cash.  The moved that cash into his other business without paying the supplier.  While it would be recorded as "his" money, the allegation here is that played with other peoples money before shutting down two businesses and tried to avoid responsibility.

Anyway, that all came from - Axis is now owed more money than Clem.  Clem is the sole shareholder, as far as we know, of Axis.  Some of the money STFC owes, could have been sourced in less than ethical ways.

[RobertT]

I has always thought Clem had one of two exit strategies in mind - either get the contracts sewn up for the development, so he stood to make money in the long term, or flip the thing as quickly as possible having made sufficient tidying up of the Balance sheet once the ground was purchased for the club.  The real window of opportunity on the second one was a year or so back, as soon as it changed hands and became an asset.  The accounts were still showing not terrible performance and the club hadn't become a sad sack yet.  Seems that ship has sailed for now.  If it was the ground, then dragging your heels on putting together a plan seems at odds with the exit strategy.

In both cases, keeping a festering business, making annual losses, doesn't seem a good idea, and the lack of desire to push for outside investment or sell, doesn't really suggest he has the business' interests at heart either.  I'm struggling with why he isn't pushing for a sale, or moving much quicker on the ground.  It's all very odd.  A person with limited wealth, potentially spunking it all away without any clear plan to stem the bleeding while refusing to engage in outside help or find the next set of deep pockets.

[STFC_Manc]

I has always thought Clem had one of two exit strategies in mind - either get the contracts sewn up for the development, so he stood to make money in the long term, or flip the thing as quickly as possible having made sufficient tidying up of the Balance sheet once the ground was purchased for the club.  The real window of opportunity on the second one was a year or so back, as soon as it changed hands and became an asset.  The accounts were still showing not terrible performance and the club hadn't become a sad sack yet.  Seems that ship has sailed for now.  If it was the ground, then dragging your heels on putting together a plan seems at odds with the exit strategy.

In both cases, keeping a festering business, making annual losses, doesn't seem a good idea, and the lack of desire to push for outside investment or sell, doesn't really suggest he has the business' interests at heart either.  I'm struggling with why he isn't pushing for a sale, or moving much quicker on the ground.  It's all very odd.  A person with limited wealth, potentially spunking it all away without any clear plan to stem the bleeding while refusing to engage in outside help or find the next set of deep pockets.

Or the third way (I'm not saying its likely now though), is that STFC get promoted and are challenging for Championship football in League 1 play offs.  Again I'm not saying we are these but look at Wrexham and Ipswich - they have both sold stakes at a big profit for the original owners.

[STFC_Manc]

If he’s been taking money from Axis (which has been taken from a third party) and then loaning that to STFC, it’s not legally his money.

STFC goes into administration, Axis gets peanuts, then they go into Administration & the people whose money it was in the first place are the ones that lose out, along with STFC. Guess who is only party who doesn’t ?

I'm afraid this is just wrong, Clem is the owner of Axis football and has pumped money in (where ever it has come from).  If STFC and then Axis football goes into admin then he loses money, the other sources can still claim from the main Axis company (which is where the legal case is, I think).

[theakston2k]

I'm afraid this is just wrong, Clem is the owner of Axis football and has pumped money in (where ever it has come from).  If STFC and then Axis football goes into admin then he loses money, the other sources can still claim from the main Axis company (which is where the legal case is, I think).

Do you rock up on here purely to try and antagonise people. I don’t remember you ever actually posting in a football thread, at least about the actual football anyway….

[STFC_Manc]

Do you rock up on here purely to try and antagonise people. I don’t remember you ever actually posting in a football thread, at least about the actual football anyway….

I didn't realise you were the forum police, am I not allowed to post on this thread?

[McGurk's Missus]

I'm afraid this is just wrong, Clem is the owner of Axis football and has pumped money in (where ever it has come from).  If STFC and then Axis football goes into admin then he loses money, the other sources can still claim from the main Axis company (which is where the legal case is, I think).

Point taken but if he dissolves said companies that he may have used to fund money into STFC, via creditors that are owed - then creditors chasing repayment can find it very difficult to clawback once dissolved. HMRC and/or equivalent will be more priority creditors. That's even if there would then be any money left in the relevant Axis bank account. No doubt any funds that would have been left, would be further shifted on before dissolving - possibly into STFC and then back out in...admin expenses {possibly}.

My own experience, albeit on a smaller scale {but the principles and ethics remain the same} is currently with a talent agency that has now gone into administration after witholding hundreds of thousands in payments to said talent. I highly doubt any of the talent that are owed funds {for work they have done over two years ago} will ever see those funds - even if they now are creditors and have a proof of debt claim to submit.

Your in principle thought process regarding Axis is correct but I think it will be much less straightforward than simply claiming the funds from another arm of that group.

[STFC_Manc]

I think we are talking at cross purposes here, I'm making the point that if STFC goes into Admin it will be Clem the main loser - regardless if its Axis or himself, as he is owed £8m. 

I don't feel like what you described above is going on, as he is the main creditor.  In your experience, I can see the clearly why it's been done, to take peoples money.

[ron dodgers]

I totally don't know who owes what to whomsoever, allegedly or otherwise and neither does anyone else.
.... I think

[Robinz]

Just possibly every poster here is simply given Morfuni far to much credit.
Just perhaps he is a simpleton and bull shitter.
As Robert mentions above Morfuni has missed many opportunities to sell and run.
Possibly (as I think) he is not in a position to sell as there are so many side agreements in place he simply can't.
As Ron says... nobody really knows.

[4D]

Well, the accounts are due by the end of this week, the full, clear and transparent breakdown should give us some ideas 

[Batch]

I thought the point is that he’s not now personally a major creditor, it’s one of his companies.

Gotcha, I think, and RobT.

He's allegedly robbed Peter to pay Paul, and Peter is a bit pissed off at it and it pursuing him through the courts with the accusation it wasn't Morfuni's money to give away in the first place.