Let's Get Political!

[Nemo]

Nobody ever won an election on a platform of more bureaucrats and administrators, but it would certainly make a real impact here - less than 1% of people who've arrived this way have had their claims processed. Speed up that process and you can get rid of anyone who isn't eligible, which from the sound of the government's rhetoric would be almost everyone.

They seem to be more interested in making headlines than making progress here though, for some reason.

[RobertT]

But your freedom of movement, and mine, had to be qualified. I had to pass tests - mainly financial - even before Brexit. I presume you getting your Green Card was even more intense. The problem I have with the present situation is that 90% of those seeking asylum are unaccompanied young men - very few wives and children and the majority are Albanian which is hardly on a par with war torn countries in Asia.

Even if there was a fast track asylum system the majority would still want to enter the country illegally because they know they’d get refused using the legal route.

There is little other way to claim "Asylum".  My point, and again, I accept ti is on the extreme end, is that who are we to say they shouldn't just move anyway?  I accept the laws I live within and work with them, doesn't mean I like them.  I am not judging anyone else who tries to seek out a better life for themselves.

The real problem that the "person on the street" is enraged about is actually not even the Asylum seekers anyway.  It's the people they see around them that look different or sound different - the legal immigrants, the ones who come in much greater number every year than the ones they actually think are the problem.  The ones on boats are a tiny fraction - in fact, imagine their journey, fucking kudos to them for making it, more than I could ever muster in effort for a better life.  If they get a job I was going for, they probably deserve it.

People have a problem with legal immigration but fight the easier battle.  It's all those naughty ones on rubber dinghies.  The person speaking Bulgarian, or Romanian, or Urdu in the Town Centre they hear are more than likely an immigrant through valid methods.

I just believe we think about it all wrong.  If we started with the basic concept of people being able to go where they please and then layer in the rules and processes around a degree of personal ownership, local government for the good of society, free enterprise etc.  Then I think we'd come to very different solutions.  You don't get there thinking about this somehow being My Land though.  Wherever I find myself living is simply a temporary resting place until my carbon finds it's way back into the ground.

The current system is a bad one, in my opinion, and creates many bad outcomes as a result - protectionism, Nationalism, crime (trafficking), death - so just a few.

[horlock07]

Nobody ever won an election on a platform of more bureaucrats and administrators, but it would certainly make a real impact here - less than 1% of people who've arrived this way have had their claims processed. Speed up that process and you can get rid of anyone who isn't eligible, which from the sound of the government's rhetoric would be almost everyone.

They seem to be more interested in making headlines than making progress here though, for some reason.

You've said what I have said much more elegantly and succinctly.

From that linked piece re Albanians.... 'In 2022, 85% of Albanians who arrived by small boats submitted asylum applications. Only 68 of them (0.7%) have received an initial decision and none were granted refugee status or another type of leave to remain. In general, 53% of claims by Albanians are accepted. Most are by women and children'

I can see this going three ways;

“We’ll implement this plan as soon as we can pass it through parliament”. (They'll blame Labour for blocking it)

It gets through parliament and gets bogged down in legal challenges. (They'll  blame courts and lefty lawyers for blocking it)

It gets caught up in the ECHR's (They'll  blame EU and lefty lawyers for blocking it)

Anyone would think there was an election in the post.

[RobertT]

I also accept having any sort of nuanced debate about Immigration is almost impossible.  It always devolves into a fight about why "they" should be allowed.

Maybe we send all the babies to the shitiest place in the world and then everyone has the freedom to make their way to wherever they want to end up.  True survival of the fittest.

[Nomoreheroes]

There is little other way to claim "Asylum".  My point, and again, I accept ti is on the extreme end, is that who are we to say they shouldn't just move anyway?  I accept the laws I live within and work with them, doesn't mean I like them.  I am not judging anyone else who tries to seek out a better life for themselves.

The real problem that the "person on the street" is enraged about is actually not even the Asylum seekers anyway.  It's the people they see around them that look different or sound different - the legal immigrants, the ones who come in much greater number every year than the ones they actually think are the problem.  The ones on boats are a tiny fraction - in fact, imagine their journey, fucking kudos to them for making it, more than I could ever muster in effort for a better life.  If they get a job I was going for, they probably deserve it.

People have a problem with legal immigration but fight the easier battle.  It's all those naughty ones on rubber dinghies.  The person speaking Bulgarian, or Romanian, or Urdu in the Town Centre they hear are more than likely an immigrant through valid methods.

I just believe we think about it all wrong.  If we started with the basic concept of people being able to go where they please and then layer in the rules and processes around a degree of personal ownership, local government for the good of society, free enterprise etc.  Then I think we'd come to very different solutions.  You don't get there thinking about this somehow being My Land though.  Wherever I find myself living is simply a temporary resting place until my carbon finds it's way back into the ground.

The current system is a bad one, in my opinion, and creates many bad outcomes as a result - protectionism, Nationalism, crime (trafficking), death - so just a few.

No system is perfect. But what you suggest is that we have no rules and hope that everyone behaves in a civilised manner. Unfortunately, civilised people are only civilised by being forced to follow rules. Or perhaps we all go down the Lord of the Flies route!

[RobertT]

No, I'm suggesting we come up with an entire new set of rules - start over.  I fully understand that human nature is one of stupidity, greed, anger etc.  Hence why I reference us being quite animalistic still.  I also think we've progressed far enough to think about it in a completely different manner.  Immigration as we now understand it is a fairly new concept in our journey on this planet.  Mostly defined by wars over the past few centuries and the introduction of Countries (a fairly short amount of time in the grand scheme of things).

Why do you have any right to live in England but no right to live in France - because of the current rules, no inherent right to OWN said plot of the earth.

Pushing this to an extreme to make a point - what if England was ravaged by Drought to an extent where living there became pretty unbearable, crops failing, water supply insufficient to support the population as a whole, crime out of control as people fight to survive, unaffordable but for a few energy as demand outstrips supply, and so on.  Should you be forced to remain there and not seek a place to live on the planet more conducive to human habitation?  just because your parents gave birth to you there.  now flip it - what right do people living in perfect, or near perfect, human habitation conditions have to prevent others from sharing in such delights?  Again, just because your parents, or there parents were born there?

Now, why my idea is extreme - people will rightly say, but I worked hard for what I have, why should someone else be granted access to it?  Our Society was born of the hard work of many, why should others just join in?  It's tough, the answers are not easy.  Certainly a free for all just generates more strife (it's where we came from and why you are where you are right now probably).  Somewhere between both extremes exists a framework that could work - it will not happen now though, no appetite to solve it.  160k a year people making a sometimes tragic journey to our shores is easy to point a finger at - blame them for shit, when they are just doing what a small proportion of any society would do and always has done, strive for better and explore where it may be.

[Nomoreheroes]

I agree. Your idea is indeed extreme, idealistic and unfortunately unworkable on so many levels.

[horlock07]

Pushing this to an extreme to make a point - what if England was ravaged by Drought to an extent where living there became pretty unbearable, crops failing, water supply insufficient to support the population as a whole, crime out of control as people fight to survive, unaffordable but for a few energy as demand outstrips supply, and so on.  Should you be forced to remain there and not seek a place to live on the planet more conducive to human habitation?  just because your parents gave birth to you there.  now flip it - what right do people living in perfect, or near perfect, human habitation conditions have to prevent others from sharing in such delights?  Again, just because your parents, or there parents were born there?

I've got a mate who works in climate resilience for GMCA, one thing that is included within their modelling is the projection that if things continue as they are then  lands around the equator and a distance to its north and south will become basically uninhabitable meaning that countries outside these zones are going to have to plan for rather large incoming migrations in the future as habitable space reduces.

[RobertT]

I agree. Your idea is indeed extreme, idealistic and unfortunately unworkable on so many levels.

I never said everyone else was perfect ;-)

[BambooToTheFuture]

'Divide and conquer'

A story evident within our species and continually true.

In idealisms that I share much closely to RobT, instead of pointing fingers at the wrong people and being an over privileged 'I'm alright Jack, eff you' attitude. Humanity could do better to ya know, actually give a shit about their fellow human...even if they look/speak/eat different to you.

There's a beauty in interacting with people from different parts of the world, a beauty to be admired - things to learn from others, impart some wisdom from. Too many that seemingly have an issue, often tend to be those who've never set foot outside of their hometown, let alone their own country.

Immigration is a generated issue due to those before. Those who decided to draws lines upon the earth and lay claim to those once borderless places as if they now were deemed the rightful owners. Only going after resource rich lands and raping them until they became barren or no longer needed. We took the people with us and worked them to beyond the bone, in order to maintain the status quo of 'I, landowner. You, slave.' This process still very much is alive today. Except we often do it where it isn't in our own backyard.

We - our ancestors, generated conditions that forced the desperate hand to those who had their places of birth ravaged and left with nothing. Why then should it really be an issue for people who are displaced coming to our and other countries? Or just want and have, like many on here, purely and simply a better life with better conditions. Ya know, just to live a relatively happy, healthy and normal? Why can't they be as entitled as many millions of other people in the world?

If we weren't still raping and bombing/attacking the shite out of once gloriously stunning places and far away lands, maybe those people would be able to prosper in their place of birth but even then, so what if they still wanted to come here. In most cases, a lot of these people actually wanted to stay in their own country or return; people must realise the good old Saint George style patriotism isn't exclusive. Most of these people love their own country just as much but can't remain there due to actions and consequences that our and other nations have historically done to them and continue to do so. All in the name of retaining power. Cunts.

[Barry Scott]

It's only biased if it's not inline with the government's latest distraction.

Like or loathe Lineker, he's right to stand his ground in my opinion.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64920557

[Jimmy HaveHave]

Wright & Shearer have pulled out of MOTD in support of Lineker. It will be interesting to see if others follow suit leaving the programme in jeopardy.

[Outletred]

The thing is when you work for a public service broadcaster you cannot express these views: whether they are anti or pro the government of the day.

A public service broadcaster has to be impartial

[adje]

Wright & Shearer have pulled out of MOTD in support of Lineker. It will be interesting to see if others follow suit leaving the programme in jeopardy.

Hope so then maybe we just get to watch the football

[Jimmy HaveHave]

Hope so then maybe we just get to watch the football

Probably end up with Jermaine Jenas🤣