Maggie dies

[Not that Nice If I'm Honest]

Thatcher won the 1979 election on the back of a carefully orchestrated campaign against Labour based on strikes in the public sector, and unemployment which stood at 1.4 mill....the infamous Labour Isn't Working slogan.

Now though,  what happened was the split in Labour and formation of the SDP, which by the time of the Malvinas War, had a massive lead in opinion polls over both parties....Liberal had taken a hit over the Jeremy Thorpe scandal.

It was victory in the South Atlantic, and the split in the left/centrist parties, which handed Thatcher an opportunity to pursue the worst elements of her programme, and gain two further victories.

To quote Alexei Sayle...what do you think of Shirley Williams?....I want to go to the toilet.

It was the Falklands war you twat

[janaage]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/blackberry/p.html?id=3046390

Good article, well written.

[flammableBen]

Her death means nothing unless it brings people together. Just a mini call to arms that. Pick your sides.

[ron dodgers]

pick your nose

[flammableBen]

I just did. got a good big edible one.

[Levi lapper]

Who the fuck would want there kids to work down the mines anyway?

Should have been done a lot slower and with more compasion....but closing them took us out of the dark ages...literally.

She won three elections....easily.

Lot of myth on how unpopular she was....to greedy union men lining there own pockets and the such she was.

My bet is most people celebrating her death are out of work socialist thinking people...who wasn't even alive when she ran the country.....not to mention low life scum the like of who started the riots

Did i vote for her...no.....but she had more bollox than all the Prime Ministers since....labour and Tory.

I wouldn't want my kids working down a mine no, but the mines were the only employers in whole communities, shutting them down like that without alternative employment was unforgivable, and she did it deliberately to get back at the miners for the strikes in 1974. We now have to import coal.

It is not a myth how unpopular she was. I lived through the pain of the early 80's as  did a group of people I work with. All of them cheered when the news came through. She was despised by millions. The only good thing I can say about her is we had a great demo on 31st march 1990. Thanks for the night Maggie.

[@MacPhlea]

It's clear that some members here have been seriously impacted by her decisions. Can someone paint a picture of what Britain, and more importantly, your life would have been like today without Margaret Thatcher?

[sonicyouth]

I'd never have been forced to watch the Iron Lady.

[Reg Smeeton]

It's clear that some members here have been seriously impacted by her decisions. Can someone paint a picture of what Britain, and more importantly, your life would have been like today without Margaret Thatcher?

It's pretty much an impossible thing to do...my life would have panned out very differently. I'm not judging for better or worse, just different. But we're all affected by the decisions of politicians, in some way or other, and I go back to Churchill.

As John Donne said "no man is an island"...as Paul Kantner said "he's a peninsula"

This is why I find it a bit sad, that large numbers of people fail to engage with the democratic process....we've plenty on here like that.

[Arriba]

Who was going to pay the subsidies to keep them open? You honestly think it's right that the rest of the country's non-union workforce pay higher taxes to keep inefficient, militant, union controlled, loss making industries going?

What union thing is a myth? That they continually crippled the country in the 70's? That they used strikes to blackmail the country in to giving in to their demands? That they were antiquated organisations that needed bringing up to date? They weren't there to protect workforces, they were there solely to protect the interests of their members whilst not giving a toss about the rest of the country.

Maggie wanted to take on the unions, she laid a trap for the miners and Scargill walked straight in to it. Don't see how you can blame her for other peoples stupidity - Scargill miscalculated and the miners paid the price. They didn't have to go down the route they did, no one forced them.

Thatcher could have shaken up the mining communities and its workers by changing things,closing them wasn't needed. Instead of working with unions she set out to destroy them. The whole thing was set up and forced Skargill's hand. Devious,cruel and brutal on her part. She didn't look to bring things upto date,she wanted them wiped out.

The unions represented their own members for sure but what is wrong with that? They are not the brutes and troublemakers they get labled as. It's not as if their members were living lives of luxury. They were just a pain in the arse to Thatcher and she wanted to flog everything anyway,they would obviously be against it so removing them was the way around it,blaming them to fool the public into it was another tactic and still gets swallowed to this day.

[@MacPhlea]

Thatcher could have shaken up the mining communities and its workers by changing things,closing them wasn't needed. Instead of working with unions she set out to destroy them. The whole thing was set up and forced Skargill's hand. Devious,cruel and brutal on her part. She didn't look to bring things upto date,she wanted them wiped out.

The unions represented their own members for sure but what is wrong with that? They are not the brutes and troublemakers they get labled as. It's not as if their members were living lives of luxury. They were just a pain in the arse to Thatcher and she wanted to flog everything anyway,they would obviously be against it so removing them was the way around it,blaming them to fool the public into it was another tactic and still gets swallowed to this day.

To be fair though, the unions were a pain in the arse to anybody who wasn't a member of one and, in the end, cut it's own throat by refusing to concede its stranglehold on government policy making. By believing it would bring the government to it's knees through strike action (because that's how it worked in those days) the Miners Union, and more importantly Scargill, didn't anticipate the stubbornness of Thatcher or change tact when it was faced with ultimate failure.

I policed the miners strike and felt sorry for the families that were torn apart by it. Ultimately the blame for the closure was down to Maggie but it was Scargill's arrogance that cost the miners a lot more.

You are correct in saying that Thatcher would never negotiate with Scargill because she knew there was no negotiating that Scargill - it was make or break and so takes me back to my original question, had Thatcher broke, what would we have become as a country?

[jonny72]

The whole thing was set up and forced Skargill's hand.

It wasn't exactly a secret though. The plan implemented by Maggie was devised in the 70's and had been leaked to the press and published. So Scargill knew what they had planned and still walked straight in to it, refusing to change stance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridley_Plan

[horlock07]

The unions represented their own members for sure but what is wrong with that? They are not the brutes and troublemakers they get labled as. It's not as if their members were living lives of luxury. They were just a pain in the arse to Thatcher and she wanted to flog everything anyway,they would obviously be against it so removing them was the way around it,blaming them to fool the public into it was another tactic and still gets swallowed to this day.

Serious question and not having a dig, have you ever been in a union and at what level?

I used to work in local government and somehow (not sure how) ended up as a Uniosn rep, we had a dispute with employers which affected me and the majority of our branch members where without any consultation they changed our terms and conditions to the tune of about £100/month.

We decided to ballot for action and called a meeting  seeking central Unison help and advice, and Unison never bothered to even send anyone. When asked the regional rep admitted that unless it involved either women workers or minimum wage they didn't want to get involved as it would not get them the support they wanted, I and most of my colleagues rapidly resigned after that.

Not doubting the rank and file but anyone at higher levels in a union is in it for one person only - how many labour politicians have got forward via this route, I suggest if you want a strangely accurate portrayal of union activity watch When the Boat Comes In from the 1970's.

Oh and if any of you can put forward a sustainable solution that would have kept the mines viable and sustaionable into the 1990's I suspect you may have one of the best economic minds of a generation.

[horlock07]

But isn't that a famous example of a quote being taken out of context?  If you hear the whole thing it is clear she is not saying there is no such thing as society per se, she is just saying society is a collection of individuals and families all making their own personal decisions and helping each other out.  Seems a reasonable comment to me.

"I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand 'I have a problem, it is the government's job to cope with it!' or 'I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!'; 'I am homeless, the government must house me!' and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society?

"There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families, and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first.

"It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business and people have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations."

[horlock07]

You are correct in saying that Thatcher would never negotiate with Scargill because she knew there was no negotiating that Scargill - it was make or break and so takes me back to my original question, had Thatcher broke, what would we have become as a country?

Arthur is a right man of the people isn't he....

However, in December 2012, Scargill lost a similar case concerning rent on his flat in the Barbican, London. For years the NUM had been paying £34,000 annual rent for the flat on Scargill's instructions, without the knowledge of NUM members or many senior officials; Scargill claimed the NUM should continue funding his flat for the rest of his life, and thereafter for any widow that survived him. Chris Kitchen said: "I would say it's time to walk away, Mr Scargill. You've been found out. The NUM is not your personal bank account and never will be again."