trivial things that make you smile,or make you feel good

[Audrey]

If roving groups of protesters protesting against, say, unsafe schools or dodgy vaccines would be be allowed to block roads with impunity.

[horlock07]

If roving groups of protesters protesting against, say, unsafe schools or dodgy vaccines would be be allowed to block roads with impunity.

What dodgy vaccines?

As for protest, its been interesting to observe the media/SM  silence from those most vexed and vociferous by JSO activities about people blocking roads with the ULEZ protests plus the criminal damage being inflicted upon the infrastructure to manage it - its almost like we've reached a level of hypocrisy whereby disruptive protest is absolutely fine if one agrees with the cause but dreadful and disruptive if one doesn't?

Just out of interest, not sure how people are supposed to protest these days?

[4D]

I agree something needs to be done regarding climate, but the hypocrisy does it for me. Are you telling me these protesters don't use cars, buses, trains, airplanes, electric or gas at home?

[Audrey]

What dodgy vaccines?

As for protest, its been interesting to observe the media/SM  silence from those most vexed and vociferous by JSO activities about people blocking roads with the ULEZ protests plus the criminal damage being inflicted upon the infrastructure to manage it - its almost like we've reached a level of hypocrisy whereby disruptive protest is absolutely fine if one agrees with the cause but dreadful and disruptive if one doesn't?

Just out of interest, not sure how people are supposed to protest these days?

Dodgy in that there were no clinical trials to prove efficacy or long term effects. The UK’s Office of National Statistics lists excess deaths ( that’s over and above Covid related deaths) from 2020 (when Covid hit) to August 2023 were 195,000 above the 5-year average. And it’s these excess deaths that the government is denying a debate about in the Commons.

[RobertT]

Dodgy in that there were no clinical trials to prove efficacy or long term effects. The UK’s Office of National Statistics lists excess deaths ( that’s over and above Covid related deaths) from 2020 (when Covid hit) to August 2023 were 195,000 above the 5-year average. And it’s these excess deaths that the government is denying a debate about in the Commons.

You think that the excess deaths were caused by a vaccine that wasn't even available when a large number of them occurred?  You do realise that all vaccines are launched without 20 year trials behind them, right?  How the fuck would we ever launch any if we had to wait that long - it's always a case of managing risk vs reward, and early evidence of side effects can be seen (plus plenty of data science goes into understanding what impact any of the ingredient's could have).  Nothing is 100% safe for everyone - even things you happily buy off the shelf at Boots can kill you, if you are one of the unlucky ones.  They have such huge material benefits that we take those risks.  The vaccines were also in development for years, just for different viruses - the research has been donkeys in the making, but I suppose they just plonked nanobots in them to control our minds......

[Audrey]

Fine. You carry on.

https://vaccineknowledge.ox.ac.uk/vaccine-development#How-are-vaccines-tested

[RobertT]

Fine. You carry on.

https://vaccineknowledge.ox.ac.uk/vaccine-development#How-are-vaccines-tested

What is your point?  This was done, just quicker than normal because some of the admin was reduced (not the trial efficacy by the way), pre-orders were made by suppliers rather than waiting for the approval and years of research was utlisied that gave a massive head start.

Nothing says it has to be over a number of years from the development stage (when they identify the vaccine needed) to launch.  In this case, decades of work had been done on the vaccine they ended up using - it was being worked on for other viruses already - Covid is part of a known family, it's just this one was new to us.

In this case, the vaccines were also developed to reduce serious illness, not cure or protect against infection - although, by default, I believe it had some impact on infection rates by reducing the time the virus remain active in individuals.  This was another area attacked - why are people who got vaccinated getting the virus?  Well, because it wasn't designed to prevent infection, it was designed to fight infection.  On this subject, most Govt's did over sell I think, making it seem like vaccinating would prevent spread.

[RobertT]

And yes, before you ask, I presume there will be many deaths linked to the vaccine itself - especially if you add up all the different vaccines in use around the globe (not all the same methodology by the way).  That is inevitable - just like Aspirin and Paracetamol - it's the balance between that very low volume vs. the much higher volume if the population was not vaccinated.

[Audrey]

I suppose my point is - what caused all those excess deaths that weren’t Covid related. Something caused them.

[Nemo]

[Audrey]

Look, people can believe whatever they want. But it’s a big ‘no thanks’ from me when they bring out the boosters.

[horlock07]

I suppose my point is - what caused all those excess deaths that weren’t Covid related. Something caused them.

From my incredibly ill-informed PoV on such matters I would suspect that people not being diagnosed and or not getting treatment for things which would normally be picked up and treatment started rapidly whilst Covid was ongoing would likley account for a bloody load of them?

Long and short, I have got several friends who have worked in various areas of the medical profession for 30 odd years (and I have known them for longer than that!), when vaccines emerged they and their kids all took it up, that's good enough for me.

[RobertT]

I suppose my point is - what caused all those excess deaths that weren’t Covid related. Something caused them.

Pandemic's can cause all sorts of excess deaths - obviously there are those that die directly, because they get it.  They die of it.  Then you have those who are infected but survive, only to have a weakened immune system that opens them up to dying of other things - like Pneumonia for example, or Heart disease related deaths.  Then there are the indirect impacts - the people who avoid going into settings with other people, which includes medical care, which means people will die who may otherwise have been saved for a bit longer, or a lot longer - cancer for example, when screening isn't done.

The response to a Pandemic is complex - it's why we don't normally see travel shut down, or full on closures like we saw with Covid.  Normally we can get away with it, this time we got hit with a virus that was outpacing us.

[RobertT]

Hold the front page, Aud, you've got the right data, just reading it wrong.

The ONS reports:

2,050,206 since Covid started
Of which, 206,879 were deaths that "mentioned" Covid (not necessarily directly caused by, but the person had Covid at the time of death)

It further goes on to show that during that same period, the TOTAL excess deaths was 194,584.  That is not saying it's another 194k, just that the total excess deaths in the period of Covid has been 194k.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending25august2023

[horlock07]

As someone who probably goes to a pub at 'peak hours' about once a year these days, the fuss this is going to cause.... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66785823

From recollection Slug and Lettuces aren't oo bad, but aren't Yates rough as fuck?