Thetownend.com

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7800985.stm

I wonder how long they will continue to get away with their barbaric opression of the Palestinians? It makes me sick. Nothing will get done though will it? Boooo

What is stupid about it? My stance on it is that what they are doing is wrong.

maybe Barack will sort it!

It's the building of a wall around them all, and the disproportionate amount of force used that is the problem... I'd be pretty peeved if me and my folks were put into a modern day ghetto, deprived of food, fuel and medicine (illegally), so some retaliation is to be expected. To then send in F16's and some such is a tad over the top in my eyes, and this has been happening for years.

The Palestinians are as bad as Israel they are the ones who voted a terriost group as there fucking leaders that is like us voting in Osmas Binman instead of Tony Blair fuck the lot of them nuke the whole middle east problem solved and we would have lot lots of oil. nuke the arabs!

dont nuke the arabs, i wont be able to go to dubai again!

While i have sympathy for the Palestinians lets not forget that only 60 years ago the world watched while millions of Jewish people were slaughtered,and believe me with that nutcase in charge of Iran theres alot more trouble in store for Israel.

good. you will not poltue the earth by flying and you will have to holiday in England thus helping are small business last the downturn!

A couple of Israelis get killed, so as a response, dozens of Palestinians get killed in the ongoing tit for tat killing. Thats the general story... the Palestinians although using perhaps not the most sensible of tactics, are just trying to get a little bit of their freedom back. I imagine they see little of option seeing as any kind of negotiation always appears to be steered to their detriment.

I dont think it's a coincidence that the UN Human Rights Council have condemned Israel for it's Human Rights violations on 15 occasions in the last 2 years with regard to the blockades etc. Notably it is only the US and Israel themselves who have boycotted these proceedings.

I assume the Gypo border is closed (on instruction from Israel) to step the supply of arms. Whereas the US just give Israel whatever they need...  :)

Ah the UN Human Rights Council, currently including those great bastions of civil rights in the world, Saudi Arabia, China and Angola to name but a few.  I find it difficult to the UN seriously in all fairness.

careful you don't fall off riding your bike backwards...

those countries in the UN that have sketchy human rights records have produced pamphlets on tell tale signs of abuse, that's why you can't discount the UN.

in short- israel has no right to that land, the brits gave it to them and that's one of numerous reasons i don't feel proud to be british (english etc)

free palestine!

those countries in the UN that have sketchy human rights records have produced pamphlets on tell tale signs of abuse, that's why you can't discount the UN.

in short- israel has no right to that land, the brits gave it to them and that's one of numerous reasons i don't feel proud to be british (english etc)

free palestine!

Ignorance, 6th form views, and cunts. I guess this amounts to 'having a view different from your own'?

Yes.

i'm confused why israel gets dibs on the land?

Britain controlled Palestine and it was felt before and after WWII that the persecuted Jews from Europe should be allowed to settle there (Remember that Palestine has never been an independent Country) There was already a large Jewish community living there, as there had been for centuries.
Britain, initially, wanted to retain control but the jewish population wanted self rule and waged a guerilla war against us which we decided was not worth the hassle. At which point we gave the UN the problem and fucked off.

Why should the Palestinians get 'dibs' on the land Bennet?

they don't have f 16's, if they want to fight for land they should dish out the land and weapons eqaully and let both sides go for it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7800985.stm

I wonder how long they will continue to get away with their barbaric opression of the Palestinians? It makes me sick. Nothing will get done though will it? Boooo
[/quoteW

We stood by and watched it all happen in Yugoslavia...and that was mainland europe.

No oil or political gain there of course.

Yanks have a huge interest in Israel.

Mind you we (Brits) help set the fucking place up so we are partly to blame i suppose. :doh:

What I want to know is which cheese is more popular in Israil? cheddar or edam?

No one has said Israel are squeky clean far from it...and without the support of the USA they wouldve been wiped out years ago....none of the middle eastern countrys like Israel so its only the threat from the US stopping them attacking Israel.....and as i said the Jews recent history is riddled with horror,they really believe the world forgot about them during the holocaust,so Lucien that dosnt justify there agression but for me it sort of helps me understand there plight.....lets not forget if ime not mistaken Hamas called off the truce last week...and promply started lobbing rockets into Israeli positions....the Arabs wont win there war with Israel so why dont they try abit harder to broker a better deal for there people...instead of antagonising an Israel just waiting for an excuse to use force.

As someone who seems to lean towards the israelis on this one are you one of these hardliners who for some reason refuses to believe the attrocitys of WW2...its not an agresive questin just wondered what your stance is,as from what ie seen you seem very right wing...i know its an old story but its something that i study and read about alot...as i said its not meant to be antagonistic and certainly not personal.

I should also add that some people's perceptions of Nationalist politics is stuck in their 1970's student haircuts.

Name one conflict that has been fought like that. The strong usually win. I say usually because when Israel was attacked by virtually the whole of the arab world, who were much stronger militarily, the Israelis defended their new Homeland and actually gained land.

It's like fucking Grounhog Day with you Bennett, I'm sure we've had this debate before!

Let's just agree to disagree.

Do I support Israel? Yes. They're doing what I would expect any government to do. They defend their citizens, jew, christian muslim and the rest, they defend their nations territorial integrity by whatever means are necessary.  I would expect our government to do the same in those circumstances.  Israel isn't perfect but now they have a formally recognised (UN) Nation State, they've got as much right as anyone to call it their homeland and defend it by whatever means thay have to.

Leave them to it. Worry only about what you can directly influence.

Lets put the Israeli actions in to context. They fire missiles at terrorists knowing that there will be civilian casualties - would you have accepted this from the British government during the Northern Ireland conflicts? For example, there is a car with four terrorists in it driving down a busy street, the British government launch a missile from a helicopter at the car taking it out and killing the occupants along with 10 innocent civilians walking down the same street. Would that have been ok? Of course not, yet the Israeli's do it on a regular basis.


The difference being of course that NI was an internal insurgency, this middle east problem isn't. I don't get this attitude some people have who moan about the Israeli's having better weapons. So fucking what? That show how restrained they really are because they could obliterate the west bank and gaza if they wanted to, along with most of their neighbouring countries.  The fact is that the two sides signed a ceasefire which wach was consistenly broken by Palistinians firing rockets at Israeli civilian and military targets.  Why shouldn't the Israeli's retaliate?

Your point about Israel being a formally recognised country by the UN (and the rest of the world) is important and interesting as well. Because Palestine isn't and as far as I'm aware about the only body that does recognise it is FIFA. How do you think that makes Palestinians feel? If it was me, I'd be pissed.

You do know that 80% of the territory known as "Palestine" prior to the creation of the State of Israel is still in Arab hands? The "Palestinians don't exist other than in propoganda. They're Arab's, same as the Iraqi's, Jordanese, Lebanese and Gypo's.

Again though, I'm not saying either side is worse but you cannot defend the actions of Israel which are on a level with all of the other rogue, undemocratic and illegal states around the world. Given what they went through in WW2 you'd have thought the Israeli's would be a peaceful and tolerant state but they're not, they're just as bad as all the others and commit unlawful murder on a regular basis.

So Israel is a rogue state now is it? On a par with North korea now is it? Do you work for the BBC or just believe the shite it serves up as news? 

Didn't have all these problems when the british emprie was around cos then everyone hated one force, US BRITS! The worst thing that happened was the clopase of empire most former british enpire contry's are now fucked so it's there are fault just let them all die

I find "goon" quite offesnive I would prefer cunt if thats okay

The difference being of course that NI was an internal insurgency, this middle east problem isn't. I don't get this attitude some people have who moan about the Israeli's having better weapons. So fucking what? That show how restrained they really are because they could obliterate the west bank and gaza if they wanted to, along with most of their neighbouring countries.  The fact is that the two sides signed a ceasefire which wach was consistenly broken by Palistinians firing rockets at Israeli civilian and military targets.  Why shouldn't the Israeli's retaliate?

You do know that 80% of the territory known as "Palestine" prior to the creation of the State of Israel is still in Arab hands? The "Palestinians don't exist other than in propoganda. They're Arab's, same as the Iraqi's, Jordanese, Lebanese and Gypo's.

So Israel is a rogue state now is it? On a par with North korea now is it? Do you work for the BBC or just believe the shite it serves up as news?

i'm further confused by isreal going into gaza with footsoldiers, what are they planning to do? occupy it again...because from memory this plan doesn't work out too well

(this is a genuine question and should not be taken as a wind up, steve)

The Israelis have been warning you that this was coming if you continue your cross border rocket attacks. Egypt has been imploring you to stop firing rockets into Israel, but you ignored our words. We have been urging you to renew the cease-fire with Israel, but you refused. You have brought this upon yourselves. You are responsible for what is happening to the people of Gaza.

I find "goon" quite offesnive I would prefer cunt if thats okay

Can you cunts please stop with your sixth form political views? What's the ethnic make up of the average Brit? German (Saxon) French (Norman) Italian (Roman) etc, etc, etc. Land belongs to whoever is strong enough to hold on to it.

just to be pedantic, the normans were ethnically danish vikings and the few "romans" (mostly german auxiliary troops anyway)  that did decide to settle in Britain after the 7th century would have been ethnically cleansed along the rest of the Celts living in England.

This tit for tat posturing(sp)by both sides is pathetic. They are as bad as eachother

In by view the Israllis are only doing what we are doing in Afganistan. Going after the terrorists & THOSE THAT HARBOUR THE TERRORISTS.

The "funny" thing is Hamas terrorists have now got exactly what they want an Israeli invasion, now for more blood shed, proper guerilla (sp) warfare.  The Israeli military leaders have made a massive mistake here.

It wasn't aimed at just you Jan.

We can all sit in our comfy, safe homes, pontificating about what's going on over there and voicing opinions like we're fucking experts.

It just annoys me a little.

Agree with that completely, 'nice' air-conditioned offices etc have a lot to answer for.

Israeli's only doing what any responsible Government should do as part of its core responsibilities i.e. defend its citizens.

So be the end of all forums, keep your opinions to yourselves folks, unless you happen to have a Degree in the subject you wish to discuss.

If you don't want to read people's views on such a subject, you know what to do fella.

Also isn't your post contradicting itself.  You agree with "office opinion" then say Israel are only doing the right thing?  Unless you're posting that from the front line in Gaza?

It wasn't aimed at just you Jan.

We can all sit in our comfy, safe homes, pontificating about what's going on over there and voicing opinions like we're fucking experts.

It just annoys me a little.

Sorry Jan, I think you misunderstand me. I wasn't saying I agreed with 'office opinion', I was just using that as an analogy to agree with herthab that pontificating about Israel is a lot easier when you don't have to face over 3000 rockets launched at your family in the last 6 months, despite an agreed ceasefire between Hamas and Israel, which only Israel has honoured.

Absolute load of bollocks.  So was launching an air attack against a Norweigian UN camp an attack against the terrorists a couple of years back????   I suppose they were hiding the missile launchers too.

But that's what discussions are about aren't they?  Whether it be here, or a drunken putting the world to rights up the pub, telling her indoors what you think, or just shouting at the TV.  I don't consider myself an expert on many things but I'd have a chat and a debate about most things, good way of learning about the world I reckon.

Do you shout at the TV Jan?

This thread, since it got ressurected today, has made me swear at my lap-top.

Phil orginally said (damn the lack of nested quoting) that what the Israelis are doing is similar to what we are doing in Afghanistan. Assuming by "we" he's including all Western forces over there, not just the UK, there's been a large amount of civilian casualties caused by NATO attacks on terrorists hiding among the civilian population in Afghanistan. That's pretty much a direct comparison to be fair. I shouldn't imagine the NATO forces *intend* to blow up civilian wedding parties etc any more than the Israelis *intended* to attack the UN base, or indeed kill civilians themselves. But in neither case, Israelis or NATO, are they being terribly careful about "collateral damage" (ie dead civilians). So I'd say Phil's point is pretty much bang on tbh - there's a direct comparison between how "we" as part of a joint NATO effort are going about our business in Afghanistan and how the Israelis are doing it in Gaza. I'm making no comment on the morality of either campaign, merely pointing out Phil was not talking "Absolute load of bollocks" but made a very fair comparison IMO

That's because you seem to be permanently angry.

I worry for you.  Seriously.  Could be bad for your health.  (By the way...do you have a Wikipedia page?)

If you want to be a "we" that includes the incapable yanks that please do  ;-)  I think the British forces, from what I've seen in Afghanistan would not launch a 10 day terror campain on say Kabul's residential areas.  If they did I'd be as disgusted as I am today.

And sorry I should have said "absolute load of bollocks imo", it's my view rather than fact, no offence Phil.

Could the Trust have this rather interesting topic on the next agenda?

And yeah from time to time I've been known to speak to the TV, only on highly emotional issues, like when Family Ties got pulled and Shaun from Eastenders casually climbed out the icey lake, without shivering.

For fuck's sake! :doh:

The Israeli's are NOT carrying out a fucking TERROR campaign.

Honestly, some people seem to think that eveything's fucking terror since Sept 11th.

Get a fucking grip!

 :furious:

now i'm slightly angy...

By the way the so called innocent civilians are the ones who elected this terrorist group to run their country are they not

Britain controlled Palestine and it was felt before and after WWII that the persecuted Jews from Europe should be allowed to settle there (Remember that Palestine has never been an independent Country) There was already a large Jewish community living there, as there had been for centuries.
Britain, initially, wanted to retain control but the jewish population wanted self rule and waged a guerilla war against us which we decided was not worth the hassle. At which point we gave the UN the problem and fucked off.

Why should the Palestinians get 'dibs' on the land Bennet?

Yes that's right the two and 3 year olds are responsible for all of this, they deserve everything they get, well said DRS!!!!  Kill more of these terrorist electing toddlers!!!!!!

Yes that's right the two and 3 year olds are responsible for all of this, they deserve everything they get, well said DRS!!!!  Kill more of these terrorist electing toddlers!!!!!!

You've been fairly active in this debate, I therefore don't really understand your point. Do you annoy yourself?

For fuck's sake! :doh:
The Israeli's are NOT carrying out a fucking TERROR campaign.
Honestly, some people seem to think that eveything's fucking terror since Sept 11th.
Get a fucking grip!

Interesting use of language there. Jewish people fighting for a homeland, and planting bombs and carrying out political assassination to acheive it are undertaking a guerilla war. I take it you'd use the same terminology for the likes of Hamas today? Or are they terrorists? If so do give me an idea of how exactly you make the differentiation?

No but if we appointed a terror group who kept launching rockets during a ceasefire i would expect some backlash

Depends how you define terrorism I suppose. Apologists for imperialist superpowers generally like to use definitions that make a big deal out of the types of weapons used, blow up a bus load of civilians because they stray in front of your IED planted at a roadside waiting for a Humvee to drive past and that's terrorism, drop a stray Cruise Missile on them and it's collateral damage.

No one agrees on a definition but I go with:

"violence and the threat of violence which are intended to create fear as a means of coercion"

Judging by the leaflets that Israel is dropping in Gaza as detailed by CNN:

Israel also stepped up its psychological campaign Monday, trying to turn Gazans against Hamas.

"Urgent message, warning to the citizens of Gaza," said a recorded phone call to Gaza resident Moussa El-Hadad. "Hamas is using you as human shields. Do not listen to them. Hamas has abandoned you and are hiding in their shelters."

The Israeli military also dropped leaflets into the streets of Gaza warning residents that the IDF will continue using "full force against Hamas." It also warned that the military "also has other means to deal with Hamas."

"If the army uses them, the toll will be very painful," said the leaflet, signed by IDF command.

That seems to fit the definition to me

Jan...Hamas and the Israelis had a pretty well observed truce up untill a couple of weeks ago....Hamas decided the truce was not for them,what did they expect?...theyve been lobbing rockets into Israel even during the ceasfire...so really the side of the argument you support really depends on who you think has the right of way in Gazza...because believe me if the palestinians get the support of Iran and Iran decide to nuke Israel is it the fault of the thousands of innocent Israeli kids who will be killed.
And another thing ware are all of the Hammis allies during this there Arab comrades?..ile tell you there noware because no country will support a terror group that is recognised by no other country....basicly its like France supporting the IRA!

Straight out of the BBC lexicon of double-speak.
Islamic Terrorist = "Militant" "guerilla" etc
Israeli Soldiers = Child Murderers
Recession = "Downturn"
I could go on..

Can I just say, the more this goes on and the more I read about it, the less I care for either side.  Without gettin all soft, corny, tree hugging (whatever you want to call it) the more I realise I'm against war.  Too much suffering of the innocent (on both sides).

Can I just say, the more this goes on and the more I read about it, the less I care for either side.  Without gettin all soft, corny, tree hugging (whatever you want to call it) the more I realise I'm against war.  Too much suffering of the innocent (on both sides).


Very true point...very well made.
On a different note i can recommend a true story called Somme Mud written by E,Lynch that really does confirm your point.

That doesn't make any kind of fucking sense?

You've got irate about other people using the word "terror" elsewhere in the thread, I'm just pointing out some possible inconsistencies in the use of language here.

For the record I'm pretty fucking clear that Hamas is a terrorist organisation, I'm just also clear that because some violent actions were a long time ago and the people that carried them out are now in senior positions in a new nationa state, that doesn't stop them being terrorist actions. I'm also clear that nation states are also perfectly capable of carrying out actions that are terrorist in nature.

What the fuck that has to do with the BBC I don't know. Do you read the Daily Mail by any chance?

We sent troops to northern ireland jan.

When was the last time you heard the BBC use the word recession? They don't, they refer to it as a "downturn".

If you want to be a "we" that includes the incapable yanks that please do  ;-)  I think the British forces, from what I've seen in Afghanistan would not launch a 10 day terror campain on say Kabul's residential areas.  If they did I'd be as disgusted as I am today.

Do you read the Daily Mail by any chance?

Politics on the te... this is mint.

I am inclined to side with the Palestinians, but neither side is blameless. Israel did not keep to the terms and land it was given when the state was created (about half and half between Israel and Palestine and Jerusalem as an independent city).

I'm always amused by this Israeli "human shield" argument.

I'm not sure what the Israeli's, or anybody else for that matter expects Hamas to do

You may want to start being disgusted then and perhaps a little less smug about "the incapable yanks" versus our own troops who've also been responsible for civilian deaths in Afghanistan. To pick just a couple of headlines from just the first page of a brief googling:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/26/military.afghanistan1
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/women-and-children-killed-in-afghanistan-by-british-air-strike-794994.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/2576271/British-troops-kill-four-Afghan-civilians-in-Helmand-province.html

Sorry, but this idea that you can have "clean" wars that don't kill civilians is just bullshit, particularly in the kind of assymetric warfare that fighting terrorists/insurgents/militants who necessarily blend in with the civilian population. And the British smugness that our lads manage to surgically take out only the bad hats while those crazy cowboy yanks blow the shit out of all and sundry bears equally little examination. And no I'm not having a go at the British troops serving in Afghanistan - I'm damn sure they take every step they can to avoid civilian casualties, but the fact is, you can't conduct this kind of war without civilian casualties and deaths. This idea of "clean wars" is, I'm afraid, one more piece of bullshit the politicians dreamed up so we wouldn't feel so bad about cheering on our boys.

Even if you were right in the "ooh, don't worry it's only the cowboy yanks, our hands are clean" I think you'll find most Afghan civilians don't differentiate between British carelessness, NATO carelessness or US carelessness when it comes to killing civilians - they just see Western forces killing their kids, wives etc.

So unless you're arguing for total pacifism (and fair play if you are - not a view I agree with, but I'll respect it), I think you're being a bit smug tbh in dismissing Phil's comparison with Afghanistan. In fact, you could argue the Israelis have considerably more justification in chasing down terrorists/insurgents/militants right on their borders than we do chasing them down half a world away.

Stop firing rockets into civilian areas, stop sending suicide bombers onto buses, restaurants, discos, stop sending raiding parties over the border to slit the throats of little children (see I can do emotive too). Just an idea like.

I don't want people to think that I've got any time for the Hamas leadership or that of the Israeli's. My sympathies are entirely with the people of the region on both sides who are living in such appalling circumstances. However, whilst I'm as sympathetic to the Israeli families that have lost loved ones as I am for the Palestinians, it has to be faced that there are a lot less of them, and I'm beginning to get annoyed by the parade of Israeli civilians appearing on screen who constantly represent themselves as the victims in this whole situation. Yes, the populations living near the Armistice line most live in fear a lot of the time, but the teenage tourists from Tel Aviv that are pitching up in the area to watch the attacks, bleating on about how they're constantly under attack just piss me off.

They don't have to hide from bombs, they get to go to school, their electricity works, they have hospitals with power, drugs and other medical supplies, and sufficient trained staff. They're defended by the largest, most well equipped armed forces in the region, they're backed by the most powerful nation on earth and are the regions only nuclear power.

They don't seem to even consider what might provoke a young arab kid to strap on a bomb belt and climb onto a bus. The fact that an entire population has been driven out of Israel and several generations have grown up in refugee camps and ghetto's with none of the advantages and opportunities they have and little hope for the future doesn't seem to register with them at all.

I'm busy today so won't be contributing much.  Enjoy the debate gents.

Would be the same if the Iranians decided enough was enough and bombed the residential Israeli areas, it'd be wrong.

No-on reads the Daily Mail - they have it read to them

You may want to start being disgusted then and perhaps a little less smug about "the incapable yanks" versus our own troops who've also been responsible for civilian deaths in Afghanistan. To pick just a couple of headlines from just the first page of a brief googling:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/26/military.afghanistan1
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/women-and-children-killed-in-afghanistan-by-british-air-strike-794994.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/2576271/British-troops-kill-four-Afghan-civilians-in-Helmand-province.html

Sorry, but this idea that you can have "clean" wars that don't kill civilians is just bullshit, particularly in the kind of assymetric warfare that fighting terrorists/insurgents/militants who necessarily blend in with the civilian population. And the British smugness that our lads manage to surgically take out only the bad hats while those crazy cowboy yanks blow the shit out of all and sundry bears equally little examination. And no I'm not having a go at the British troops serving in Afghanistan - I'm damn sure they take every step they can to avoid civilian casualties, but the fact is, you can't conduct this kind of war without civilian casualties and deaths. This idea of "clean wars" is, I'm afraid, one more piece of bullshit the politicians dreamed up so we wouldn't feel so bad about cheering on our boys.

Even if you were right in the "ooh, don't worry it's only the cowboy yanks, our hands are clean" I think you'll find most Afghan civilians don't differentiate between British carelessness, NATO carelessness or US carelessness when it comes to killing civilians - they just see Western forces killing their kids, wives etc.

i can tell u that im proud of my son; he managed to get a hold of people from the pikud ha orif (the civilian body that functions in time of war) to deal with the thai workers at least in the moshav near netivot: beit hagedi

since a friend of anon told us that they were working there as usual, and didnt go anywhere protected, nor know what to do, when the sirens sound; they are just sitting and listening to the booms etc... so today, 10 days later, my son found someone that would go in to the moshav at least there, and arrange a 'safe room' for them to go to, when there is a siren... and to talk with the employers to make sure they remember that thai workers are people also... of course thai news doesnt mention this either - the treatment of the workers during times of war... havent seen any official statements from high places about thai people (workers) coming back to thailand; or any other advisories... the thai in the north here havent a clue what's going on here in the southwest area either. and from anon's reaction, it doesnt seem to to matter to them either... it seems to matter more to me than to him (my husband who is a fatalist anyhow)

the thais that we spoke with on the phone say they are mostly drinking and working and ignoring the siutuation; maximum, they will go home for free (in a body bag)... that is the thai black humour of the day....

dont see that that interests most people here on the board either... or maybe they are hoping they will have less relatives to support back in the village... rolleyes.gif

i heard one thai got killed; wasnt exactly on the front pages though; and the guy that was helping my son organize the stuff for the thais, got called back to family as his nephew was KIA yesterday....so new guy, starting all over again with the organizing stuff

my own thoughts: everyone has made their beds, now we are laying in them...

bina
israel

in point: the arab guys i work with at the hotel, well, most really dont seem to care what happens there either... these guys are well off, educated, a bit more assimilated and mainstream, and are still going to clubs, hanging out, and ignoring the political situation altogether, or maybe just wishing it would go away as it is interfereing with their daily lives of 20+ yr old males.

Agree with those points Paul, but by way of illustration the Yanks & British armed forces do have a different attitude when shooting. My brother used to be in the Navy & whilst his ship was in the US was sent to one of their weapons training courses.
The brit philosphy is / was take aim & fire. The yank philosophy just spray as many bullets in the general direction.
The Israelli attitude is probably more like the Americans

So where is Blair in all of this. Wasn't he appointed a special middle east envoy or something. (No doubt on some huge salary paid for by us tax payer mugs)

Two things:

Paul is speaking increasingly as if the membership of Hamas is in some way separate from the Palestinian population. He's verging on an "outside agitators" type of argument. Hamas may be funded and armed by Iran but it's membership is Palestinian, it's leadership drawn mainly from the veterans of the Intafada (in fact the whole organisation was formed out of the Intafada).

And I'm not sure what Paul means by Hamas being "solely interested in concentrating their own power" surely if that was what they were interested in they'd have backed off a bit, called off the rocket attacks, taken what international funding they could and built themselves a bit of a power base. Pretty much what Fatah have been doing for years. Instead they've thrown themselves into what I agree is a fairly futile attempt to destroy Israel. When they say they want to get rid of Israel and replace it with an Islamic Palestinian state I think they fucking mean it.

Boom boom!

So where is Blair in all of this. Wasn't he appointed a special middle east envoy or something. (No doubt on some huge salary paid for by us tax payer mugs)

In all seriousness, he is in Washington recieving an award from Bush for all his sterling work

Very topical Sam (if that was an intended pun)!!

Fair point Lumps, I think I got carried away with my own argument a little and was talking bollocks on the second point. The Iranians are certainly manipulating the situation as an outside force and using it for their own ends. Hamas are just fucking nutters.

On the first point, I accept they're "part of" the Palestinian population in that they are Palestinians but would see them as separate from the general larger population in that they're a smaller subset. And the point I was trying to make, is that the suicidal course of action chosen by this smaller subset has inevitably dragged in the more general Palestinian population at large.

Hence my overall conclusion that Iran, as manipulators of the situation to conduct a war against Israel by proxy, and Hamas, as fucking nutters, must share the blame for the suffering of the general civilian Palestinian population at large who are suffering because of their actions. Hopefully that's a bit clearer. No nearer a solution, mind, and I suspect you'll still disagree with some of it, but hopefully clearer.

What kind of "award"?

 :a2m:

In any case "hundreds of millions" may sound like a lot of money, but for an area under a total blockade, who's economy is consequently crippled and which therefore has a population largely dependent on aid to survive, it's fuck all. Sheffield spends over £800m a year on healthcare alone for a population of about a million. Providing even basic puplic amenities for a population of 4m across Gaza and West Bank would cost at least that every year.

On the other hand Israel death toll up to an enormous total of 8, 3 of which were killed by the Israelis. 

I see the BBC is relentlessly quoting "500 deaths" without any effort to tell us how many of those killed are Hamas terrorists or, how many others were killed because of Hamas.

Just one big bite-sized media friendly number that cannott be independently verified and has come directly from...Hamas.

The BBC, terrorist propoganda peddler.

Moving on to other matters Gazan, I see the BBC is relentlessly quoting "500 deaths" without any effort to tell us how many of those killed are Hamas terrorists and how many other were killed because of Hamas. Just one big bite-sized media friendly number, natch.

I see you're an avid reader of the Biased-BBC blog - plagiarist. At least try to quote your sources:
http://www.biased-bbc.blogspot.com/

oooh good find.

David Vance - Biased BBC - I agree with every word of it.

Tel-Aviv is more densly populated than Gaza.

I see the BBC is relentlessly quoting "500 deaths" without any effort to tell us how many of those killed are Hamas terrorists or, how many others were killed because of Hamas.

Just one big bite-sized media friendly number that cannott be independently verified and has come directly from...Hamas.

The BBC, terrorist propoganda peddler.

Actually I withdraw that last comment. This whole conflict must be difficult for your lot, Muslims on one side and Jews on the other.

It's not suprising you're sounding a bit confused.

I'm not confused Lumpy, I know exactly where I stand on this whole situation.

Neither side is doing anything to help themselves.
Hamas is provoking Israel and the people proclaims to be representing are the ones who suffer.
Israel is within its rights to do what its doing - defending itself.
The media seems to be peddling propoganda and not reporting facts.
I don't hate anyone..except moron's like your good-self.

i hope that is simple enough for you to understand.

you bloody fool !

Those "islamic terrorists" were in the UN run school today were they ?

If you had half a fucking brain and actually read some of my earlier posts on this subject you wouldn't think I was just having a dig at you - in fact there are big problems on BOTH sides which is obvious to anyone with an ounce of intelligence....

But no-one can defend bombing a school and killing innocent kids - in the name of "defending my country" - it is the biggest bollocks argument that is being spouted by the Israelies to hide behind some of the attrocities that they are carrying out !

Tell that to victims of Islamic terrorist you fucking womble.

:D

I tend not read your posts either Sheepshagger because you come across as an aggressive lout with the intelligence of a four-year-old, and the sexual sophistication of a donkey.  Please fuck off. :bye:

This is all depressing stuff. I saw Iggy Pop on the telly earlier selling insurance. We're all going to hell in a handcart, not in my name etc, etc

I see the BBC is relentlessly quoting "500 deaths" without any effort to tell us how many of those killed are Hamas terrorists or, how many others were killed because of Hamas.

Just one big bite-sized media friendly number that cannott be independently verified and has come directly from...Hamas.

The BBC, terrorist propoganda peddler.

Ah the usual answer from you - nothing sensible to say - cant have the debate - so just try to put me down :)

Nicely true to form Ironside...........

Paul, I agree with a lot of your points BUT surely Israel need to take some responsibility here as well - its all very good saying it is Iran's fault and the Hamas "nutters" - but Israel are still killing innocent people at an alarming rate.....

the way i see it is israel has told them they where coming if it was here i would take my kids /family away for the area ,not saying its the people  of gaza fault but i would get well out of the way both sides are as bad as the other .get your family to safe grounds now

Erm, they can't. The Israelis have blockaded them in.

Fuck a duck.

I've had the debate already with bigger brains than you sheepy.  You've missed the party and now your looking at the fucking passed out drunken girl laying in the garden and wondering whether slip her a length and hope she doesn't notice.

As I stated, I think they're both as bad as each other.
As I stated, i am bored of this.
As I stated I think you're a cunt.

I really can't make it any clearer than this:

Stop stalking me you freaky snot gobbling little shit stain.

Thanks.

PS I like Spacey because he makes me laugh...you could learn a lot from him sheepy.

did they not drop leaflets before they moved in?? ,thats what i was told ,i might be wrong here

What a nice fella you are.......

Why the fuck would I want to make you laugh ?  And as for stalking you......not my cup of tea matey - to be honest 99.9% of what you say is completely irrelevant to me - but just annoys me when you back up people killing innocent kids - I am pretty sure up until that point I raised a couple of issues (not with you) and stated a pretty balanced opinion - far more fucking balanced than you could be bothered with ....

Your paranoia is getting the better of you Ironside - to me you are neither important or relevant - but when you spout shit on an open football forum expect to have shit spouted back at you...

Enjoy your evening :)

If anyones posts in this thread has been blanced, I'd say it was PaulD's, which is a little bit suprising in itself because he's got a very liberal political viewpoint

Why can't they just settle things with a game or something? Wouldn't it be great if you turned on the news and the headline was 'reports are coming in that a game of football has broken out in the Middle East.' Get that bald italian fella out of retirement to referee, send Motson and Lawrenson out to report and we can all sit back and enjoy the action.

:D

Undoubtedly the best post of 2009 so far !

Just goes to show how you pidgeonhole people without even knowing them Ironside.

He seems pretty liberal to me, unless he's just playing the role because I happen to have right wing views and he likes to argue.  i may be wrong.

Ardiles, you just called me an extremist. Go fuck yourself.

Leave my hats out of it

The new one is a class act !

or tifterdom

Hehe. The "Genius" in ironside's signature is still spelt wrong.

I agree that it reflects something about you, certainly. Keep up that insultin' Iron-y.

If you stand at the North Pole, every direction is south.  In much the same way, isn't everyone (incl the media, apparently) liberal if you happen to be Ironside?

In much the same way, Fox News doesn't have people complaining about anti-republican bias because its obvious where it is coming from.

Which kinda proves Ironside's point, it's only your opinion that he stands at the North Pole. Who's to say that it's not you at the South Pole and every direction is North. The implication here is that the media (I think he's only criticised the BBC) can't be biased - because Ironside doesn't agree with it but you do.

For all the BBC's redeeming factors, it clearly struggles with impartiality on certain issues - the EU, Israel, Climate change, George Bush, Sarah Palin etc etc. If the BBC had instead a consistent anti-Labour bias, then similar criticism would have sprung up to identify it. But of course there hasn't, because it doesn’t exist.

In much the same way, Fox News doesn’t have people complaining about anti-republican bias because its obvious where it is coming from.

I disagree.  There's more of a concensus than you indicate, I think.  I think Ironside himself would acknowledge that his views are well to the right of the mainstream, and my point simply alluded to the fact that his constant railing against and frustration with those he regarded as being too liberal is, surely, due to his being well to the right of the mainstream.

It's all relative.  I'm not saying who is right and who is wrong (or even that anyone is right or wrong).  But in my humble view, maybe he should try not to get so chopsy with people who don't share his views when, to be frank, his views are on the periphary in the first place.

  but I think he takes it as well as he gives it

A consensus doesn't prove anything (the Germans voted Hitler into power).

You might want to check your history there mate. Hitler never won a presidential election, the best he managed was second place with about 37% of the vote.
 
In the March 13, 1932, election there were four candidates: the incumbent, Field Marshall Paul von Hindenburg, Hitler, and two minor candidates, Ernst Thaelmann and Theodore Duesterberg. The results were:

Hindenburg 49.6 percent
Hitler 30.1 percent
Thaelmann 13.2 percent
Duesterberg 6.8 percent

A runoff election on April 19, 1932, gave the results:

Hindenburg 53.0 percent
Hitler 36.8 percent
Thaelmann 10.2 percent

The Nazis embarked on a campaign of violence and political assassination and general mayhem, resulting in martial law in Berlin, and eventually the disolution of the Reichstag, and new elections in July 1932.

The Nazis became the largest party, with a couple of hundred seats, but even that was only about the same number of seats that the communists and socialists held. The socialist and communist vote held up but the centre parties collapsed almost completely with the Nazi making all the gains from the middle class votes.

Hitler failed to persuade President Hindenberg to make him Chancellor, but after a further period of unrest, (and a further election, where the Nazi share of the vote and number of seats dropped) he was eventually bullied in to the appiontment in January 1933.

A month later the Reichstag was set on fire by a single Dutch communist. The government made a big deal about this being the opening salvo in the German communist revolution, and produced material that suggested that it was part of a string of planned attacks on state property, (plans that had been conveniently left at the scene of the fire but handily had not burned, and that strangely never actually seemed to translate into any actual attacks).

The reichstag were persuaded to pass an enabling bill to to give emergency powers to Hitler to counter this "threat", and presto, Hitler was the German dictator.

Never won an election, never had a parliamentary majority. Never acheived as much of 40% of the popular vote.

From a position of relative ignorance, I seem to remember that at one time many thought that Israel was foolish and provocative to continually expand it's settlements in to land which was not theirs by right. Was, and is, ownership of disputed land the main problem between the parties, or have I got it wrong? Someone who knows the truth please educate me

Now that is pretty impressive knowledge!!

:D

I tend not read your posts either Sheepshagger because you come across as an aggressive lout with the intelligence of a four-year-old, and the sexual sophistication of a donkey.  Please fuck off. :bye:

Keep me out of this. :fear:

Cant believe how many pages have been posted about this dispute.

At the end of the day if you want to come at me with superior armed troops, tanks, helicopters, planes which the opposition cannot defend themselves against, then in the word of freedom - Churchill - we will fight you on the beaches, etc
If you think it is right to kill mums, dads, and kids under the banner of UN protection, then for goodess sake the world should sit up and take action, or should I say America for fuck sake call a stop to this.

Israel you are so wrong with your actions, anybody who argues there case in there favour must be a total moron.

hee hee  - sorry to get you involved Donkey :):):)

Makes me laugh that I am being accused by the "liberal middle of the road" Ironside of being an agressive lout :):):)

Just a few of his choice comments on this thread alone - not even all aimed at me I might add .........

"Ardiles, you just called me an extremist. Go fuck yourself."
"you come across as being a complete retard"
"You really are an utter cunt, Why don't you and go and put yourself in the Gaza strip and support your poor oppressed "Palestinian" friends.  Hopefully the Israeli's will do us all a favour and remove you from the gene pool."
"As I stated I think you're a cunt"
"Stop stalking me you freaky snot gobbling little shit stain"
"you fucking womble"
"Lumps, I get bored reading your rants so skip through them I dan't actually give a fuck anymore"
"Sheepshagger, I defend Israel's right to defend itself so fuck off."
"I don't hate anyone..except moron's like your good-self."
"Someone take this cunt outside and shoot him please..."
"Shut up you fucking goon"

These are just the insults on this thread - hmmmm I am not sure I am the agressive one Ironside - I think that might sit squarely in your domain.........

Have a lovely evening wont you :)

Herthab, for me to lose my rag is completely out of character.
If you take offence from comments, then I apologise.

If we have two powers say like - Iran/Iraq 15 years ago with equal abilities to hurt each other then that is a fair war, if there can be such a thing.

The present situation with Israle/Palaestine is a massacre, probably put my point across poorly I suppose.

Cant believe how many pages have been posted about this dispute.

At the end of the day if you want to come at me with superior armed troops, tanks, helicopters, planes which the opposition cannot defend themselves against, then in the word of freedom - Churchill - we will fight you on the beaches, etc
If you think it is right to kill mums, dads, and kids under the banner of UN protection, then for goodess sake the world should sit up and take action, or should I say America for fuck sake call a stop to this.

Israel you are so wrong with your actions, anybody who argues there case in there favour must be a total moron.

PS. Does anyone find that it can be difficult to detect tone when reading t'internet?  I do think that half the time on here arguements break out because someone's got hold of the wrong end of the stick.

PS. Does anyone find that it can be difficult to detect tone when reading t'internet?  I do think that half the time on here arguements break out because someone's got hold of the wrong end of the stick.

Not really Ironside - most people seem to be able to come on here and have an active discussion without worrying that anything they write will be slagged off immediately - unfortunately then you came along....

Fuck off. virtually every post I've made on here has been attacked by someone, you, PaulD, Lumpy, the old cunt etc etc. Doesn't matter what the subject was or what the post contained, you all attack it. Forgive me for defending myself, but I supposeI'm lucky I'm not an Israeli defending myself though eh...cunt.

 Does anyone find that it can be difficult to detect tone when reading t'internet?  I do think that half the time on here arguements break out because someone's got hold of the wrong end of the stick.

I feel offended that you havent singled me out for vitriolic abuse. Until you do I will concur to move further and further to the left.

I feel offended that you havent singled me out for vitriolic abuse. Until you do I will concur to move further and further to the left.

I thought you were the old cunt..

I really don't know why anyone bothers about arguing with Ironside. He ain't going to change his opinion, whether he's right or wrong. I do find his abusive comments quite amusing in a playground sort of way.
Can anyone remember Spitting Image's piss take of Boy George doing War?

I'm intrigued by Ironside in his "Self-confessed BNP jackboot licker in not an extremist shock". Ironside, if you don't think you're an extremist, what would classify as a (right-wing) extremist, in your spectrum? Having been pleasantly surprised by your liberal views on Israel in this thread (must confess, I'd suspected you wouldn't have been pro-Israeli) would you, for example, categorise someone as extremist if they actively pursued Holocaust denial? Or published anti-Semitic material? Or would they have to actively attack Jews/Muslims etc to qualify as extremist? Or maybe attacked with weapons/fire/explosives?

Another question you can't answer Ironside? Our midfield ducks out of a challenge less often than you do

Aljazeera?

You must be fucking joking Jan! They make the BBC look well balanced and impartial. I'm sure I could dig up a polar opposite of that article if I looked through the Israeli media.

since i can respond here, joy o joy...

while u all bat about with words, i know have two kids in the southern areas helping out (and my son was able to get help for the thais in the area, good for him, he was really pushing the organizations that are helping to pay attention to the silent foreign workers)

and then, b. , an arab guy whom i raised practically as my son came to work distraught: good horse back riding friend of his was the soldier that was killed last week... and one soldier killed was druze.

now how does all that fit in your all kettle of fish?

we watch the news every evening, and get first hand reports from our kids (we have five guys on the kibbutz in gaza that are in the regular army i.e. 18/19 yr olds) and older guys that are in miluim (reserve duty)...

it is not easy for an 19 yr old to sit in a broken up house with a child's carriage, mattresses and blankets strewn around, sleep there, and wait for orders to proceed... knowing that enemy fire can come out of any house behind any child's carriage (the tunnels are hidden under childrens beds, behind closets, tunnels are everywhere. and who dug the tunnels? palestinian kids desparate for money for their families, they are small and can dig and are less noticed than older guys and a lot of them were injured in the process when tunnels collpased)...
i have to tell u, we are all awfully awfully tired. we sympethize with the families in gaza w/o water, milk, heating (its cold and miserable the past few days)electricity, and the humanitarian help israel sent over was caught up in the black market to be resold at high prices instead of being handed out; only small amounts of food etc is actually being handed out for free. this we know from the guys that are there (the soldiers). we sympathize, but also, we are really sick of being kassemed and GRADDED (the missiles being shot over); and also, last nite the army dropped fliers down on the civiliians to get out of a certain area, but they (the civilians) had no where to go as egypt wont open its borders, and we certainly wouldnt, and hamas wouldnt let them out anyhow...
so how do u think my best friend's son as a commander feels when he knows that some palestinian child his sister's age is shot by him? our kids are told by us over and over again that these people are human. we dont want our kids to lose their humanity even in a war. what price do u think some of these kids pay to keep their humanity in a time of war?
everywhere we go now, u see an arab guy come towards u, u check for an alternative route... that is sick. it makes u not trust anyone.
combat in gaza is difficult as living areas are super crowded houses and narrow streets with plenty of places for trapping the soldiers in dead ends. because of the conditions, four israeli soldiers were killed by friendly fire. yesterday there was a cease fire until 1600. at 1600 precisely, the hamas started up again. like a group of small children in a kindergarten. u all are getting the reports from news reporters. we are getting the reports from our kids.

i asked my son (not in main army in pre army) where he was: answer: bombshelter 49 in netivot. he's been there for the past 12 days (we are counting every day, trust me) and will come home tomorrow to shit shower shave and sleep for the weekend.
the gazans are like cornered animals and will fight to the last woman and child for something they think they want; their backs are to the sea, and borders by people who dont want them. the arabs here in the villages dont want them, they consider them vermin (poor, uneducated primitive breeding like rabbits-- some of the ways the guys from the villages here describe the gazans)...

sometimes it is better to give a good hard hit and finish the whole thing all at once, then to have something drag out. non of us wanted this. now we just want it to finish. hopefully forever (yeah right). if the gazans would just go about their business and we could go about ours, then i and others certainly wouldnt be writing what i wrote. but for purposes of their own, with their own agendas, other poeople have made us (israelis and gazans) get sucked in to yet an other war.

forgot to add; lots of goat rustling now that every one is busy with gaza, the other areas, instead of rushing in and helping their brethren, are busy stealing our goats (from decent arab villages also, 150 head of expensive goats got stolen yesterday from friends in valley) and rushing off to the 'other' areas.

dont see them helping in any way shape or form. lots of arab protesting but no help from their either. just verbal diahreaa and some tire burning for their brothers.

well my rant for the weekend, i guess non of u can really understand what is going on here unless u live here (on either side, arab or israeli jew) but we are certainly just very very tired. in thai i guess its called : nui jai.

bina
israel

Lebanon getting in on the act as well now then.

I tend to side with the Israelli's as historically they only took land when they were attcked from it by their neighbours. It's is a country that has from day 1 been under threat, & has / will only survive by being as tough as those who wish to obliterate them.
Irans president wants to wipe them off the face of the earth, & I suspect a lot off other arab countries have similar views. That's why Sadaam Hussien launched scuds at them, to try & get the Arabs on his side.
Hamas are a bunch of terrorists, who must know that they can't defeat Israel by launching some rockets at them, but persist in doing so. I conclude that the reason is that they want to get a response from Israel, get some civilians killed, gain sympathy & get other Arab states to join in with an all out war on Israel.
Israel of course HAS to respond. As a democracy, their Government would be kicked out pretty sharp if they did nothing. Unfortunately that makes civilian casualties almost inevitable. "Clean War" can only exist if you have two armies drawn up against each other in the desert.
Of course the other thing that should be bourne in mind is that they have Nuclear weapons. I believe that is why Iran (or any other Arab state) will not be openly involved. (Israel would use them as a last resort I am sure).
The problem with trying to find a solution is that a lot of the Arabs tend to believe the ONLY solution is the removal of the state of Israel in a similar vein to Hitler's Final Solution.

Hehe, this made I larf...

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