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Author Topic: Swindon Town v L’Orient pre match and match day thread  (Read 22216 times)
horlock07

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« Reply #450 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 08:46:33 »

The managers philosophy is only as good as the players asked to deliver it. What's clear to me is that we are lacking in that department when key players are missing/having an off day.

Its not just Garner its been a problem under multiple managers for a fair few seasons (I vividly recall a game against Preston under Cooper when we were doing exactly the same - on that day it was all McEveley's fault according to the fans), to play that type of football out from the back you need defenders who are comfortable and confident on the ball, and defenders like that who can also as importantly defend will not be plying their trade in Div 4.
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Arriba

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« Reply #451 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 08:57:38 »

Its not just Garner its been a problem under multiple managers for a fair few seasons (I vividly recall a game against Preston under Cooper when we were doing exactly the same - on that day it was all McEveley's fault according to the fans), to play that type of football out from the back you need defenders who are comfortable and confident on the ball, and defenders like that who can also as importantly defend will not be plying their trade in Div 4.

That's what you get with players at this level. They make more mistakes and is why they're at the level they are. Our defender's are always looking to give the ball but the options are lacking for them to do so. That's where mistakes occur. The defending which is shambolic at times is another thing. I think we over complicate everything and of we went back to basics we'd be better for it.
« Last Edit: Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 09:12:56 by Arriba » Logged
Quagmire

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« Reply #452 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 09:22:42 »

The concern for me is most players seem to have got worse the longer the season has gone on as well as looking worse as a team collectively.

Payne, Wollocott, Reed, Williams, Hunt, Conroy have all got worse. It’s only really McKirdy and Iandolo who I actually think have improved.
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DiV
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« Reply #453 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 09:26:59 »

If the players aren’t capable of doing the things the manager is continually asking them to do, that’s on him…
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Posh Red
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« Reply #454 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 09:46:47 »

If the players aren’t capable of doing the things the manager is continually asking them to do, that’s on him…

Spot on, the good managers at this level can set up a side to fit their strengths.
It’s ok for the top managers to do it, because they can buy players to fit their philosophy as money is pretty much no object.

The more I see of us under Garner, the more I think of Luke Williams, a great coach but not likely to be a great manager
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Peter Venkman
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« Reply #455 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 10:07:28 »

The more I see of us under Garner, the more I think of Luke Williams, a great coach but not likely to be a great manager
I agree, As I suggested before Christmas too but was shouted down by several posters.
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singingiiiffy

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« Reply #456 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 10:10:35 »

The concern for me is most players seem to have got worse the longer the season has gone on as well as looking worse as a team collectively.

Payne, Wollocott, Reed, Williams, Hunt, Conroy have all got worse. It’s only really McKirdy and Iandolo who I actually think have improved.

the thing is as the season has gone our starting 11 each week has also got worse. our first choice 11 with no injuries/loan recalls this season is a match for absolutely anyone and we have shown that enough times.

the depth isn't there unfortunately and it looks like the season will die away. we gave it a good go

my first home game since wasall. that game was still post simpson going but 4 changes is huge from that team of:

Wollacott; Iandolo (Ryan East 74), Davison (Harry Parsons 77), McKirdy (Jonny Williams 65), Cooper, O'Brien, Barry, Tomlinson, Hunt (C), Reed, Aguiar.

we had balance, leadership and movement.

Cooper and o'brien looked brilliant together, conroy and o'brien dont.

Tomlinson and hunt as attacking full backs. Odimayo- i like him at cb or as a 3, hate him at rb- no confidence to run at players, will always pass backwards and poor delivery.

Aguiar has dipped recently but sometimes the personnel can free you and with the running of mckirdy AND barry gaps open and he exploited them massively.

Our replacements for injuries just aren't good enough this season and it has shown. is what it is.

Another thing from yesterday was that our cbs couldnt find a pass so reed took over and dropped deep. thats 7 players left in front of them to find a pass with orient having 9 left to defend. 7 vs 9 we couldnt find the space and the game was completely gone. we needed to be more direct and braver, we got frustrated.
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Arriba

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« Reply #457 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 10:27:41 »

There are definite similarities between Garner and Williams. It's academy style football that they try to get their teams to play.
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DiV
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« Reply #458 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 10:34:32 »

Spot on, the good managers at this level can set up a side to fit their strengths.
It’s ok for the top managers to do it, because they can buy players to fit their philosophy as money is pretty much no object.

The more I see of us under Garner, the more I think of Luke Williams, a great coach but not likely to be a great manager

It’s exactly that. Garner background is academy football means his directive is play a certain way and mould the players into that system.

If they aren’t capable they get moved out and another kid comes in. If they are capable they move up and another kid comes in. It’s a conveyor belt and it’s pure trial and error and it can afford to be exactly that because results mean nothing ultimately.

At the Palace academy Garner could have lost 120 games straight but if 2 or 3 kids made it to the first team - he’s done his job.

That isn’t football management & never will be
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4D
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« Reply #459 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 10:44:16 »

Most long balls yesterday were woeful. Simple stuff.
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kaufman

« Reply #460 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 10:44:51 »

Davison's strike rate now just 3 behind Simpson in 12 less games. If he catches him that's got to be applauded. Darwin only knows how many Simpson would have got though if he stayed.
I'd have them both here next season without doubt.
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The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey

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« Reply #461 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 10:52:52 »

It all depends on what brief Garner has from above. If it’s developing players for future sale and not necessarily building for the future with the intention of progressing the club, then this season’s increase in crowd numbers will dwindle away over the next year or 2.

Fans aren’t stupid. I’m not even sure I’d want to watch much more of Garnerball even it produced results.

The passion has been sucked out of matchdays. It’s like going to the cinema to watch some arty farty film you’re supposed to like but is boring the arse off you.
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Batch
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« Reply #462 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 11:08:17 »

I felt that way with Williams Aud. Seriously questioned if I could take another session of that.

For whatever reason I'm not there with Garner. And yes I can see many parallels
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RobertT

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« Reply #463 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 11:52:31 »

I suspect the criteria for our Manager was equal parts results and develop players for sale.  That's why we got someone like Garner in, it's what he does (the second part - although he used to develop them for use in the first team).

They are going to get a rude awakening if they think they will get away with repeating this season though.  For all the good stuff, and being in and around the play offs, this still must count as one of the worst seasons in our history since the birth of four divisions.  A meander to this sort of finish did for Brown.  They got a freebie this year due to the summer shenanigans and saying the right things.

Ultimately, Garners approach has a limitation in first team football.  He will only be judged on results by the fans, and our history is one of a team that usually gets promoted from this league soon enough, then potters about in the one above while bouncing around a bit in the longer term.  He has to learn and change approach.  We've been found out - teams can set-up to defend or pressure us.  Either approach, both negative ways of playing some would say, stifle our possession style and our soft defending in general play as well as set pieces gives a team all they need to work off at this level.  Sometimes our possession and sprinkle of good players wins the day, other days we huff and puff and fall over.  Teams only have to play us twice, they can set-up for us and take that 50/50 approach if they need to.

We are not going to get players of top quality - we need to use a bit of the dark arts of the game, we need some winners in the team.  If you took some highlights from Garners post match comments, you'd get the same package for every game nearly, win or lose.  By now he should be getting irritated by not getting the results, not worried about performance levels (as he sees them).  At the end of a season, XPG doesn't earn you a single fucking point.
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Peter Venkman
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« Reply #464 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 12:02:53 »

It’s exactly that. Garner background is academy football means his directive is play a certain way and mould the players into that system.

If they aren’t capable they get moved out and another kid comes in. If they are capable they move up and another kid comes in. It’s a conveyor belt and it’s pure trial and error and it can afford to be exactly that because results mean nothing ultimately.

At the Palace academy Garner could have lost 120 games straight but if 2 or 3 kids made it to the first team - he’s done his job.

That isn’t football management & never will be
Almost exactly as I posted back in February.

These are still my thoughts too, nothing has changed.

Sorry for the long post but this is how I see it, I doubt many will agree but then they never do Smiley

I don't think getting rid of Garner would get us anywhere at the moment. Clem would still get in a man who wants to play passing attractive(at times) football and buy, nurture and sell young players, thats Clems remit he has admitted that already several times.

I have said since day 1 that Garner is not a manager, hes a development coach, his background is development of young players and is not tactically aware of what is needed in a cut throat results based league. He has come from a career as a youth/academy development coach, a job in which he has to be nice and get on with the young players, coach them and improve them to prepare them to get ready for the 1st team, a job he had some success with previously.

At academy level there is no pressure to get results, you just develop the players and even if you lose 3-0 week in week out your job is safe, you are under no pressure to learn how to learn game management, there is no impetus to need to change tactics to win games as the result is largely totally immaterial. He could lose every game but if he brought 1 player a season through to challenge for the 1st team then that would be considered success.

He has never had to learn tactical styles, he plays to a formula that wins some and loses some but in a way that means the players can at least pass a ball but relies on the youngsters having enough already in their locker to play the position that they do, it merely prepares them for playing in a team but necessitates no need to over coach them with tactics which is why many youngsters struggle when they come to lower league clubs, they dont have the footballing intelligence to take on tactics and the pressure of needing to get results as its all new to them.

I don't think its a coincidence that Garner is getting rid of most of the old guard as they can see we need results at the expense of pretty football, Grant wanted to win the ball at all costs, Garner didn't want that, he wanted a player who could pass a ball and maybe win a couple of challenges too not just a ball winner, which we can all see is blatantly missing in the team.

Garner has never had to learn how to manage a game, how many times have we been in the lead with 15 mins left and yet he makes what with foresight and hindsight are errors in substitution or doesnt know how to shut up shop. That is something badly needs addressing, being a league manager is 99% about results and not about about playing just an attractive style of football.

At an academy there is no danger that if you lose games then the academy will not suffer long term, in the league if you dont get results the entire club suffers with relegation or worse, the lower down the leagues the harder it is to get decent players, to get decent sponsorship and to attact fans, all of which will have an impact on the club financially, then you can get into the realms of overspending and take out loans and not repay then as Bury learnt and so nearly Power too.

Chesterfield, Notts County, Stockport, Wrexham, Grimsby and Southend were all well established league clubs with a history of plying their trade in much higher leagues but how they have dropped with poor on the pitch performances, its easily done with just one poor managerial appointment, look at us last season with Sheridan for instance, if he was removed in December I still feel we could possibly have survived in L1.

A couple of blatant faults for me have been - why go into a whole campaign essentially with a lone "front man"? yes we have "attackers" players who can play in a variety of positions but not as an actually front man. If Simpson or Davison got injured then we have zero actually striker options on the bench to change/improve us, that IMO is a fault of recruitment Chorley or Garner.

We have probably too many players who are very similar, McKirdy, Barry, Williams, Payne and JML so although all offer something a little different none have enough to change a game dramatically, that is a fault of recruitment Chorley or Garner.

We have a few underperforming players and all players have highs and lows but no single player is ever the reason for poor results, 1 player (for instance Conroy) makes an error then the other 10 players should make up for that by closing ranks and helping.

I have noticed we seem to have no "talkers" on the pitch, helping players out, I lose count of the number of times one of our players gets put under pressure in the middle of the pitch, or in front of our defence and we can all see 2 attackers pressing him yet he seems oblivious to any incoming players, nobody is telling him to get rid of the ball with a short pass, or put it into touch and all too often that player gets punished and often a goal results when often a simple call from a team mate may have made him more aware.

Anyway short term I think Garner needs extra help from an experienced manager to help him in the areas that we are obviously lacking, changing tactics, game management, better use of subs. Obviously he may not think he needs that help or be open to it, like Iffy and Big Ron a few years back but if a young manager doesn't feel he needs to learn then maybe he isn't cut out to be a manager?

Not just criticise Garner but encourage him to improve in his job in the areas that need it, oh and make him aware that his decisions ultimately have THE biggest bearing on fans/players/finances as the worse the results the less chance we will have of attracting better players, better sponsorship and ultimately more fans.
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