New beginnings - 25% Truth, 80% Bollocks

[RobertT]

Have you actually looked at them? As they have the same financial level of detail. The number of pages means nothing
 

Yes, I have, 10+ years worth of them.

The detail is different - they both include a P&L (which Clem did add and Power did not produce), but the STFC P&L is very high level.  Tranmere provide a breakdown of source categories of Revenue for example and cost categories.  STFC  simply use Revenue, Cost of Sales and Admin Expenses - broad high level categories used in a P&L with no sub detail.

Am I wrong?

[RobertT]

By the way, I am not saying we are "bad" for producing what we produce.  I am saying we are not the best in terms of providing insight into the performance of the business and being open and honest with fans, something we were told was our aim.  I seem to remember wanting to be Number 1 in the Fan Engagement survey for example (I could be wrong in the specific one).

[STFC_Manc]

Yes, I have, 10+ years worth of them.

The detail is different - they both include a P&L (which Clem did add and Power did not produce), but the STFC P&L is very high level.  Tranmere provide a breakdown of source categories of Revenue for example and cost categories.  STFC  simply use Revenue, Cost of Sales and Admin Expenses - broad high level categories used in a P&L with no sub detail.

Am I wrong?

It's pretty much the same and isn't any more useful.

[Audrey]

Tbf, they are engaging with fans. Trouble is it’s with contempt.

[RobertT]

It's pretty much the same and isn't any more useful.

If you cannot see the leap that providing sub categories in financial information creates, then there isn't anything further to debate.

[Nemo]

Tbf, they are engaging with fans. Trouble is it’s with contempt.

[JoeMezz]

Present average is 8,849. Last seasons average was 9,064. So not a huge change - yet.

Wrexham will skew the data too with the big Boxing Day crowd.

[STFC_Manc]

If you cannot see the leap that providing sub categories in financial information creates, then there isn't anything further to debate.

It's not a massive leap, unlike Carlisle and Exeter is my point. If you can't see that then I give up.

[Audrey]

Wrexham will skew the data too with the big Boxing Day crowd.

That game will probably push the average over 9000.

Why no decent, prospective buyer can’t see the potential here is beyond me.

[RobertT]

It's not a massive leap, unlike Carlisle and Exeter is my point. If you can't see that then I give up.

Adding a P&L provides insight that cannot be gleamed from a Balance Sheet update alone - the latter will show the loss or profit due to the change in the Retained Profit line item, but will not provide any insight into how that occurred.  Usually, the basic P&L will give you a clue as to whether it was a trading loss or due to something extraordinary.  As an example, we could have made a profit but the reality was that the trading position was loss making and the club covered that with a one off windfall from an onward player sale.  I use this example because it has happened to us in the past.  On the flip side, we may have made a trading profit but had to write off a significant bad debt we had been counting in the assets on the BS.  That would not be great for the business, but wouldn't materially impact our financial future if we can trade at a profit.

Now, to add a further layer, being able to identify source categories of financial performance can greatly enhance our understanding of the financial position and future viability of a business, especially if we have more than one year to review.  It's still not detailed enough to make tactical decisions from, but it can provide great insight into how the business is performing.  For example - knowing the variation in Gate/Ticket revenue from year to year will enable a casual observer to do some basic trending analysis, or look at gate numbers and determine any interesting trends there (like revenue per customer).  It's normal for clubs to include ALL ticket revenue when reporting this line item, so season tickets plus matchday, the club realises season ticket revenue across the season, game by game.  That single extra detail can lead to a treasure trove of information that gives us insight into performance.  It enables us to hold people to account - so statements cannot be made that the data available will not support.  It's precisely why a business will often go to the lowest level of requirements enforced in production of accounts and why Power went with the basics.

[horlock07]

It's not a massive leap, unlike Carlisle and Exeter is my point. If you can't see that then I give up.

Be interesting what Carlisle's next set of accounts look like going back into more private overseas vs. long term fans, local lads done well ownership.

[RobertT]

Be interesting what Carlisle's next set of accounts look like going back into more private overseas vs. long term fans, local lads done well ownership.

I am intrigued by their new owners, they seem quite normal (for over here) and genuine.  They are well off, but not Billionaires or anything.  Their logic in going for Carlisle seems quite well determined, like they really gave it some proper thought.  But why do it all?  I know there are likely some tax benefits in the USA, but is it really worth it?

Anyway, i imagine they produce the basic from here.  We are middle of the road I think.

[STFC_Manc]

Adding a P&L provides insight that cannot be gleamed from a Balance Sheet update alone - the latter will show the loss or profit due to the change in the Retained Profit line item, but will not provide any insight into how that occurred.  Usually, the basic P&L will give you a clue as to whether it was a trading loss or due to something extraordinary.  As an example, we could have made a profit but the reality was that the trading position was loss making and the club covered that with a one off windfall from an onward player sale.  I use this example because it has happened to us in the past.  On the flip side, we may have made a trading profit but had to write off a significant bad debt we had been counting in the assets on the BS.  That would not be great for the business, but wouldn't materially impact our financial future if we can trade at a profit.

Now, to add a further layer, being able to identify source categories of financial performance can greatly enhance our understanding of the financial position and future viability of a business, especially if we have more than one year to review.  It's still not detailed enough to make tactical decisions from, but it can provide great insight into how the business is performing.  For example - knowing the variation in Gate/Ticket revenue from year to year will enable a casual observer to do some basic trending analysis, or look at gate numbers and determine any interesting trends there (like revenue per customer).  It's normal for clubs to include ALL ticket revenue when reporting this line item, so season tickets plus matchday, the club realises season ticket revenue across the season, game by game.  That single extra detail can lead to a treasure trove of information that gives us insight into performance.  It enables us to hold people to account - so statements cannot be made that the data available will not support.  It's precisely why a business will often go to the lowest level of requirements enforced in production of accounts and why Power went with the basics.

What's the point of this post, all I'm saying is that STFC accounts provide more information than most. Tranmere provide a little bit more info but don't help in any meaningful way, I could use Carlisle to enable an analysis of STFC accounts but Tranmere I couldn't.

[RobertT]

What's the point of this post, all I'm saying is that STFC accounts provide more information than most. Tranmere provide a little bit more info but don't help in any meaningful way, I could use Carlisle to enable an analysis of STFC accounts but Tranmere I couldn't.

Good lord.

The point was that STFC were making the stated aim of being more open and transparent than other clubs - the goal to be number 1.

The current CEO then responded to a question last night where he seemed more than comfortable with what we produce as being sufficient, when it is indeed more than the minimum, but nowhere near what CAN be done.  Examples were provided and he seemed oblivious to them.

If the club wants to be number 1, then what they produce is clearly insufficient.

So either they a) up their game or b) change their stated aims

I am merely pointing to examples of what more openness looks like.  From a little bit more, to a lot more.  Every little bit more provides people step changes in how they can review the information - maybe Joe Bloggs gets little, but I can review Tranmere's accounts and give you a summary of their performance at a far more detailed level than I can for Swindon.  With Carlisle's, I could probably get close to making some decisions on what to do with the business, so detailed are they.

[4D]

As Rob is saying, there is more to the accounts than just the balance sheet. The balance sheet is where you are at, the p&l lays out the journey.