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Author Topic: Let's Get Political!  (Read 2111398 times)
BoA Vagabond

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« Reply #13155 on: Sunday, March 24, 2024, 18:21:08 »

Investing in public services helps in the moment and for many years into the future. You say that Labour are going to spend, but what have the tories done? Raised the national debt (as a % of GDP) to the highest levels since the 2nd world war whilst raising the personal tax burden (except those with offshore accounts), again to the highest levels since the end of WW2. And do we have good levels of public service in return for this? Do we fuck. They've fucked them all. NHS, police, education... it's all a mess. So where's the money gone? They've stolen it. It's gone to their mates, their business investments, the companies they sit on the boards of, the firms they 'advise', the businesses owned by tories that suddently popped up out of nowhere that they gave massive PPE contracts to, their shell companies, their offshore accounts in the Caribbean.

The greatest trick they have pulled and continue to pull is convincing the average person that they give two shits about them. They hate you. They look down on you and sneer and laugh.

Well said.
And anyone that says, "The Conservatives and Labour, they're all the same! Either way we're fucked!" has fallen into another trap. The parties have very different interests, values and ideas.
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Barry Scott

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« Reply #13156 on: Sunday, March 24, 2024, 19:16:36 »

Investing in public services helps in the moment and for many years into the future. You say that Labour are going to spend, but what have the tories done? Raised the national debt (as a % of GDP) to the highest levels since the 2nd world war whilst raising the personal tax burden (except those with offshore accounts), again to the highest levels since the end of WW2. And do we have good levels of public service in return for this? Do we fuck. They've fucked them all. NHS, police, education... it's all a mess. So where's the money gone? They've stolen it. It's gone to their mates, their business investments, the companies they sit on the boards of, the firms they 'advise', the businesses owned by tories that suddently popped up out of nowhere that they gave massive PPE contracts to, their shell companies, their offshore accounts in the Caribbean.

The greatest trick they have pulled and continue to pull is convincing the average person that they give two shits about them. They hate you. They look down on you and sneer and laugh.

And anyone that says, "The Conservatives and Labour, they're all the same! Either way we're fucked!" has fallen into another trap. The parties have very different interests, values and ideas.

 Clap

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RedRag

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« Reply #13157 on: Monday, March 25, 2024, 09:02:38 »

Both major parties are dire and I wonít be voting for either of them- though Labour in my experience would be worse.

They have long since been the party of the working classes as they continually penalise and tax tax tax just to give it to immigrants and benefit claimants

Them getting in will be amusing to watch though if nothing else. If the Tories were proper conservative then they would get re-elected


Back in 2016 - under the Conservatives - which single group was a net fiscal benefit to the UK, ie contributed more to the Exchequer than they took out? 

1. UK born Brits,
2. Non - EU migrants or
3. "free movement" EU Migrants

Yes, the answer is 3.

You make a good argument for Single Market membership and EU free movement.
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4D
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« Reply #13158 on: Monday, March 25, 2024, 09:22:52 »


Back in 2016 - under the Conservatives - which single group was a net fiscal benefit to the UK, ie contributed more to the Exchequer than they took out? 

1. UK born Brits,
2. Non - EU migrants or
3. "free movement" EU Migrants

Yes, the answer is 3.

You make a good argument for Single Market membership and EU free movement.

That won't be the total contribution though, the figure will be percentage based on each group. EU born migrants will be mostly working age, the Brit born will include a huge number of pensioners.
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RedRag

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« Reply #13159 on: Monday, March 25, 2024, 10:04:32 »

That won't be the total contribution though, the figure will be percentage based on each group. EU born migrants will be mostly working age, the Brit born will include a huge number of pensioners.
That's seems to be a fair comment.

It is probable that EEA migrants are more likely to return to their own country in retirement than non-EU migrants.  Or indeed, should they become unemployed.  It's about proximity.

The lesson for Outlet is that if you want to pay less tax for migrants claiming benefits, EEA membership is the more cost effective way for a country to fulfill its labour requirements.
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Peter Venkman
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« Reply #13160 on: Monday, March 25, 2024, 10:07:10 »

The greatest trick they have pulled and continue to pull is convincing the average person that they give two shits about them. They hate you. They look down on you and sneer and laugh.

And anyone that says, "The Conservatives and Labour, they're all the same! Either way we're fucked!" has fallen into another trap. The parties have very different interests, values and ideas.
Agreed.
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Bogus Dave
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« Reply #13161 on: Monday, March 25, 2024, 19:18:28 »

Most people who will tell you Ďtheyíre all as bad as each otherí are disillusioned Tory supporters who are trying to justify their decision not to vote
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4D
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« Reply #13162 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2024, 08:53:16 »

Most people who will tell you Ďtheyíre all as bad as each otherí are disillusioned Tory supporters who are trying to justify their decision not to vote

That's like comparing a kick in the bollocks to a kick in the shins.

I dislike the tories for the obvious, I dislike Labour for the far left content.
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Moss

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« Reply #13163 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2024, 09:05:27 »

No donít read any newspaper tbh

Anyone who thinks Labour stand up for the working class and make work pay are in for a nasty shock

Yes not reading any newspapers qualifies you for political comment for sure. Labour gave us unions, the NHS minimum wage the list is endless. Maybe read a book?

Every single Tory government has left the Country with massive debt whilst they have given loads of money to themselves as shareholders of companies. They have sold off all the family silver so the country owns nothing and most is now owned by Chinese, Russian, French rouge states like Saudi and other rich individuals. We as a Country have sold everything off. Water, utilities, railways all used to be owned by you and I. Even our football clubs have been sold off. You ignorant knob.
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fuzzy

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« Reply #13164 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2024, 09:39:20 »

All political parties have their faults.

depending on what your leanings are makes one party worse than the other in your view.

As time passes and I get older and more cynical, I become more disillusioned with them all.

The Tories regularly get caught proving that lots of them are only in it for themselves and their cronies.

Labour regularly start chomping on their metatarsels over such things as the party treatment of the jewish faith etc.

Etc. etc. ad nauseum.
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Nemo
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« Reply #13165 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2024, 09:46:07 »

I think the thing that confuses me is that I just so rarely see any Tories who actually think their party will do any good - just that a vote for them will prevent Labour from doing any harm. It's like the entire reason for the Tories to exist is to be not Labour. Might just be a sign of them being in power for so long and achieving so little, but there you go.
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RobertT

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« Reply #13166 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2024, 11:42:22 »

if your general political beliefs are to the right of centre, in old school speak, then you are very limited in options.  The left side of the Country has three of four options, depending on location.  Someone who views immigration as bad for the Country, and thinks that is a critical bit of policy to cast a vote on, is not going to vote for a left leaning party based on current approaches to immigration.  Therefore, they are left with a single choice in their mind.

Seeing how odd a two party system makes everyone in the USA, the multi party system has to be better.  The UK needs either a stronger secondary choice for the Right to vote for or, and much better, a way of getting representation to match the will of the voters across the Country.
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The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey

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« Reply #13167 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2024, 14:56:20 »

Reform arenít that far behind the Tory party in the polls.

Iím afraid that is a reflection on the way the whole of Europe is leaning at the moment. Most people accept immigration is necessary but surely nobody can defend that the huge amount of illegal immigration is good for anybody.
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Nemo
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« Reply #13168 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2024, 14:59:07 »

Iím afraid that is a reflection on the way the whole of Europe is leaning at the moment. Most people accept immigration is necessary but surely nobody can defend that the huge amount of illegal immigration is good for anybody.

I don't think any of the parties (or, any that have any chance of winning) think illegal immigration is a good idea, it's just a practical issue of what you can actually do about it. Not sure token flights to Rwanda is going to make the blindest bit of difference.
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RobertT

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« Reply #13169 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2024, 15:02:39 »

Reform arenít that far behind the Tory party in the polls.

Iím afraid that is a reflection on the way the whole of Europe is leaning at the moment. Most people accept immigration is necessary but surely nobody can defend that the huge amount of illegal immigration is good for anybody.

And while I don't much like Reform, the fact they will basically end-up with nobody in the House due to the FPTP process just shows how bad it is.  You end-up with the Tories winning 40% of a vote in a location and walking away with the win.  To be fair, Labour used this in their 1997 surge (which was still not 50% of the vote) and the Lib Dems used to be very good at ignoring large swatches of the UK to get MP's in targeted locations.
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