Let's Get Political!

[horlock07]

Jesus this is going to be fun in the courts, setting aside any matters of Brexit or the referendum the governments case seems to hinge on the fact that they know best and parliament should not really have an opinion, will set some terrifying precedents for wider legislation if it gets through the courts - just image the fun that the Tories could have with no apparent opposition at the moment and a legal precedent to change Acts of Parliament without consulting parliament? 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/28/government-must-disclose-legal-arguments-article-50-procedure-peoples-challenge?CMP=share_btn_fb

[ghanimah]

Jesus this is going to be fun in the courts, setting aside any matters of Brexit or the referendum the governments case seems to hinge on the fact that they know best and parliament should not really have an opinion, will set some terrifying precedents for wider legislation if it gets through the courts - just image the fun that the Tories could have with no apparent opposition at the moment and a legal precedent to change Acts of Parliament without consulting parliament?  

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/28/government-must-disclose-legal-arguments-article-50-procedure-peoples-challenge?CMP=share_btn_fb

It's not a legal precedent it's well established that international treaties are a Crown prerogative, thus Theresa May is well within her rights to invoke Article 50 using the Royal Prerogative without consent of Parliament. Besides Parliament has already agree to use of Article 50 by virtue of ratifying the Lisbon Treaty in this first place.

Changing Acts of Parliament is done by use of Statutory Instruments and that requires consent of Parliament.

[horlock07]

It's not a legal precedent it's well established that international treaties are a Crown prerogative, thus Theresa May is well within her rights to invoke Article 50 using the Royal Prerogative without consent of Parliament. Besides Parliament has already agree to use of Article 50 by virtue of ratifying the Lisbon Treaty in this first place.

Changing Acts of Parliament is done by use of Statutory Instruments and that requires consent of Parliament.

It all depends on what the government is trying to do. Case law holds that a government cannot by means of prerogative power undo an Act of Parliament. The current case argues that invoking Article 50 would undo an Act of Parliament (at the very least the European Communities Act 1973, potentially many others), and is thus something that requires Parliamentary approval.

In terms of SI's that doesn't seem to be reflected by what's happening on the ground, the government are merrily presently changing planning legislation all over the place through the use of SI's none of which is being debated in parliament.

The court case is going to be a legal bun fight and if it fails the parliamentary debate should make interesting watching.

[ghanimah]

It all depends on what the government is trying to do. Case law holds that a government cannot by means of prerogative power undo an Act of Parliament. The current case argues that invoking Article 50 would undo an Act of Parliament (at the very least the European Communities Act 1973, potentially many others), and is thus something that requires Parliamentary approval.

In terms of SI's that doesn't seem to be reflected by what's happening on the ground, the government are merrily presently changing planning legislation all over the place through the use of SI's none of which is being debated in parliament.

The court case is going to be a legal bun fight and if it fails the parliamentary debate should make interesting watching.

Article 50 does not itself change any Acts of Parliament. It's a device in an international treaty design to inform an international organisation (EU) that we intend to leave. After it's invoked we still remain full EU members and Acts like the ECA 1972 still remain in force unamended.

Where Parliamentary Acts will be amended is when May returns from Brussels with her deal after Article 50 negotiation and in the form of an EU secession treaty - under what used to be known as the Ponsonby Rule - it will be laid before Parliament for ratification. It is here that the relevant Acts of Parliament will be repealed or amended.

I agree about SIs, the implicit nature of approval is inadequate in terms of Parliamentary debate and scrutiny.

[horlock07]

Article 50 does not itself change any Acts of Parliament. It's a device in an international treaty design to inform an international organisation (EU) that we intend to leave. After it's invoked we still remain full EU members and Acts like the ECA 1972 still remain in force unamended.

Where Parliamentary Acts will be amended is when May returns from Brussels with her deal after Article 50 negotiation and in the form of an EU secession treaty - under what used to be known as the Ponsonby Rule - it will be laid before Parliament for ratification. It is here that the relevant Acts of Parliament will be repealed or amended.

I agree about SIs, the implicit nature of approval is inadequate in terms of Parliamentary debate and scrutiny.

I am not sure thy the governments case on the matter is so convoluted and why they have tried to prevent disclosure if it is that simple?

[ghanimah]

I am not sure thy the governments case on the matter is so convoluted and why they have tried to prevent disclosure if it is that simple?

It could be something no more simple than government departments are in a bit of chaos at the moment about Brexit and so they regard the court case as something of a distraction (which it is)

[horlock07]

It could be something no more simple than government departments are in a bit of chaos at the moment about Brexit and so they regard the court case as something of a distraction (which it is)

I don't know what you possibly mean.....

To cheer up Reg I see the Tories took another kicking in a local election in Stow on the Wold yesterday, vote down 21% and right next to Witney too - result early next month will be an interesting marker.

[Reg Smeeton]

I don't know what you possibly mean.....

To cheer up Reg I see the Tories took another kicking in a local election in Stow on the Wold yesterday, vote down 21% and right next to Witney too - result early next month will be an interesting marker.

We live in strange times. I'm inclined to sit back and watch the Tories self destruct. 

[Ardiles]

They won't though, will they.  Despite the divisions being caused by Brexit, the Tories are in a far stronger position than any other party at the moment.  Just about everyone agrees that they're going to walk the next General Election - whether its held in 2020 or before - because the opposition has evaporated.  The only significant parties showing any kind of unity at the moment are UKIP and the SNP...neither of whom are going worry Teresa May to any great extent.

Under the present FPTP electoral system, the Tories are practically unassailable.

[Reg Smeeton]

They won't though, will they.  Despite the divisions being caused by Brexit, the Tories are in a far stronger position than any other party at the moment.  Just about everyone agrees that they're going to walk the next General Election - whether its held in 2020 or before - because the opposition has evaporated.  The only significant parties showing any kind of unity at the moment are UKIP and the SNP...neither of whom are going worry Teresa May to any great extent.

Under the present FPTP electoral system, the Tories are practically unassailable.

The key is that their position of strength is also their weakness....they will be expected to run the country efficiently, something which atm looks beyond them.

[Saxondale]

Tories stick together.  Unfortunately it takes a lot for them to split.  As long as they are all doing well and having a lovely time they wont set upon each other.

My lot are, unfortunately, a 'broad church'.  From members who are a glass of port away from turning tory to those who want full on class war, its pretty difficult to make it sing the same hymn.

I saw Corbyn speak at the Tolpuddle Festival last year.  Despite being warmly received in the main there were still a small amount berating him for not declaring smashing capitalism is the only way to truly honour Marx.

[Ardiles]

Tories stick together.  Unfortunately it takes a lot for them to split.  As long as they are all doing well and having a lovely time they wont set upon each other.

My lot are, unfortunately, a 'broad church'.  From members who are a glass of port away from turning tory to those who want full on class war, its pretty difficult to make it sing the same hymn.

I saw Corbyn speak at the Tolpuddle Festival last year.  Despite being warmly received in the main there were still a small amount berating him for not declaring smashing capitalism is the only way to truly honour Marx.

This is precisely why we need to do away with First Past the Post (FPTP).  Bring in proportional voting, allow Labour to split in to two (or three) - in to smaller, coherent political units that actually believe in what they stand for - and then elect a parliament that will properly represent the balance of opinion in the country.  It is only FPTP that forces Labour, and the Tories to a lesser extent, to group together in uneasy alliances that pull in several directions.

FPTP disproportionately rewards big parties.  It skews the political debate and disenfranchises millions of voters.

[Reg Smeeton]

Tories stick together.  Unfortunately it takes a lot for them to split.  As long as they are all doing well and having a lovely time they wont set upon each other.

My lot are, unfortunately, a 'broad church'.  From members who are a glass of port away from turning tory to those who want full on class war, its pretty difficult to make it sing the same hymn.

I saw Corbyn speak at the Tolpuddle Festival last year.  Despite being warmly received in the main there were still a small amount berating him for not declaring smashing capitalism is the only way to truly honour Marx.

It's always been thus in the Labour Party.  It's been a good week for Jezza, it now looks as if the likely 80's style split, may not happen and the party can unite, as far as it ever can.

[horlock07]

It's always been thus in the Labour Party.  It's been a good week for Jezza, it now looks as if the likely 80's style split, may not happen and the party can unite, as far as it ever can.

Although possibly the thing that's saving Corbyn from a split is that dissenting MP's don't really have anywhere to go, would have been interesting to see what happened if the Lib Dems hadn't crashed so hard at the last election and thus retained some clout in the house, may have been a different picture then?

If we run the full course of this parliament and the Lib Dems continue to pick up support as they are at the moment, if Corbyn is still leading in say 2019 be interesting to see what happens then?

[horlock07]

Tories stick together.  Unfortunately it takes a lot for them to split.  As long as they are all doing well and having a lovely time they wont set upon each other.

My lot are, unfortunately, a 'broad church'.  From members who are a glass of port away from turning tory to those who want full on class war, its pretty difficult to make it sing the same hymn.

I saw Corbyn speak at the Tolpuddle Festival last year.  Despite being warmly received in the main there were still a small amount berating him for not declaring smashing capitalism is the only way to truly honour Marx.

I think the difference is the key objective of the Tory Party is to rule and they value this before all else, hence when it looked like Labouresque divisions would surface in the leadership election post Cameron, that was all put to bed very quickly. Be interesting to see when May finally decides to cut a deal on leaving the EU as whatever she  does is going to piss a lot of the party off either way - then the fun and games may begin.