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Author Topic: Let's Get Political!  (Read 1996265 times)
Levi lapper

« Reply #870 on: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 11:54:07 »

I believe a similar figure kept labour in clover. The system is the system FPTP. You won't hear the sweaty socks moaning will you? You have five years to brood. Of course when your taxes start to fall I'm sure all you conscious socialists will hand it back to the treasury ...........

Actually I'm doing fine financially, and I don't particularly want a tax cut, I'd rather live in a society where the poor and the vulnerable are looked after, not blamed for the financial situation the world finds itself in. I'd rather have a health system that works, and a welfare state, and I'll sleep easier in my bed knowing there aren't people sleeping on the streets.

I'm happy to pay tax and live in a civilised society, called me old fashioned, but rich people living in gated communities is not the sort of country I want my children growing up in.
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Ardiles

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« Reply #871 on: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 11:56:49 »

Under pure PR we'd have a Tory/UKIP coalition passing 50% of the vote so be careful what you wish for. My thoughts on the electoral system are already in this thread, but the people did not vote for a socialist utopia only to be ignored, I'm afraid.

I don't think we would.  The Tory vote included a good deal of tactical votes designed to keep Miliband out of Number 10.  Tactical voting would have been negligible under PR.  The Tory/UKIP combined total may have just crept over 50%, but only just.  And besides...if that's the will of the electorate, it's the result that should be reflected in Parliament.

The present system is a farce.  I almost struggle to call it democratic.  It collects votes, distorts them, and then spits out a result that no one voted for.
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Arriba

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« Reply #872 on: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 11:57:53 »

Some excellent debate on these pages and I've enjoyed catching up on it.

We have a first past the post system and I am happy to live by that. I do think things would have been different under a proportional representation system as others have said. The greens in particular I think would do very well.

Boris Johnson is an absolute cunt by the way. The scruffy haired likeable buffoon people see is in reality a nasty piece of work.
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donkey
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« Reply #873 on: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:12:28 »

I don't think we would.  The Tory vote included a good deal of tactical votes designed to keep Miliband out of Number 10.  Tactical voting would have been negligible under PR.  The Tory/UKIP combined total may have just crept over 50%, but only just.  And besides...if that's the will of the electorate, it's the result that should be reflected in Parliament.

The present system is a farce.  I almost struggle to call it democratic.  It collects votes, distorts them, and then spits out a result that no one voted for.

Exactly.

I don't choose the government, I have but one vote.  However, I believe the make up of parliament should be roughly reflective of the votes cast.  This is a point of principle, one I have held for well over 20 years, regardless of party in power.
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« Reply #874 on: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:14:54 »

Under pure PR we'd have a Tory/UKIP coalition passing 50% of the vote so be careful what you wish for. My thoughts on the electoral system are already in this thread, but the people did not vote for a socialist utopia only to be ignored, I'm afraid.

We don't like UKIP so let's not change the system.....that's sounds very democratic and free.

I'm not Labour but hate the Tories so let's bring in a system to stop them getting in power?

It's first past the post....it was very clear at the start, so that's what it is until it changes.

Like Preston being 20 points clear than Chesterfield....it's the rules and that's that.

The SNP getting major power and Labour losing so many seats may see a change...I'm hoping.
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« Reply #875 on: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:22:06 »

Some excellent debate on these pages and I've enjoyed catching up on it.

Yeah have to say it's been a good thread on the whole. Good to see you can still have a good debate on the TEF.
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #876 on: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 12:23:27 »

Under pure PR we'd have a Tory/UKIP coalition passing 50% of the vote so be careful what you wish for. My thoughts on the electoral system are already in this thread, but the people did not vote for a socialist utopia only to be ignored, I'm afraid.

Although a Labour man, I voted for the AV thing at the kick Clegg referendum, if the people vote for a Tory/UKIP coalition, then so be it.
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Nemo
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« Reply #877 on: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 13:18:57 »

We don't like UKIP so let's not change the system.....that's sounds very democratic and free.

I'm not Labour but hate the Tories so let's bring in a system to stop them getting in power?

It's first past the post....it was very clear at the start, so that's what it is until it changes.

Like Preston being 20 points clear than Chesterfield....it's the rules and that's that.

The SNP getting major power and Labour losing so many seats may see a change...I'm hoping.

Apologies if it wasn't clear but you seem to have read my post in the opposite way to how it was intended: I dislike everything UKIP stand for but to get 1 in 8 votes and one seat undermines our democracy. That system is wrong. Yes, we all knew it beforehand and I'm not saying the results of the election are invalid, but it's a system that needs to be reformed for an era of multi-party politics.

The only point I was trying to make in the post you've quoted is that there isn't some left wing majority being ignored because of the system that some of my friends seem to think there is.
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« Reply #878 on: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 13:37:30 »



I am now educated Wink
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« Reply #879 on: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 15:31:48 »

I dislike everything UKIP stand for but to get 1 in 8 votes and one seat undermines our democracy. That system is wrong. Yes, we all knew it beforehand and I'm not saying the results of the election are invalid, but it's a system that needs to be reformed for an era of multi-party politics.

The problem with moving from FPTP to PR is losing the connection between the MP and the constituency. Even in the best case of a mixed system, you'd end up with far bigger constituencies and a group of MP's with no real regional affiliation. Sure the link between MP and constituency is questionable at times, but I reckon we should be moving more towards that than voting simply for a party. Plus the argument that FPTP delivers more stable governments has held up again.

Whilst the smaller parties such as the Greens and UKIP might not end up with many MP's it does't mean their voters aren't heard or their views accounted for. As they receive more votes the larger parties will change their policies - such as more renewable energy and recycling, or holding a referendum on EU membership.
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« Reply #880 on: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 16:14:17 »

If you want a working model of a PR clusterfuck look no further than Italy. They change their government more often than some ppl change their underwear. Without a strong lead, left, right or centre you'll end up horse trading to the eight degree and achieve nothing but chaos and uncertainty.
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« Reply #881 on: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 16:54:51 »

Some of these comments are pretty funny and some are actually quite sensible.

FPTP. It's the system we have and it's the system that every voter has to take into consideration prior to placing their cross. The Conservatives and Labour, certainly until Thursday had absolutely no reason to change it. Is it fair? No. Will it change in the next Parliament? Almost certainly not.

I could go on and on about Labour fuck up's, since '97: Lisbon treaty, Open borders, Taxation in all areas, Devolution, Illegal wars, PFI, GP contracts, Ridiculous over expansion of the welfare state, Tax credits, Economic policy built on debt, Housing policy, Lack of regulation over the Banking industry, Profligacy, Lack of contingency planning, NHS targets, Police targets to name but a few. That would just be fighting yesterday's battle, not that they should be forgotten of course.

The fact is, any sensible person could see that the Labour party couldn't accept, or even understand, not that they caused the global financial crisis, but that they left the the UK in a precarious state when it arrived. The fact that they wouldn't admit to that is, as far as I'm concerned, the deciding factor for most voters and the reason why the Conservatives won by so many seats.

Arriba and Reg can bore us to death with their tired old prejudices about the Tories but they need to remember that MOST people work for a living, pay their own way and have no problem contributing to society financially, and more often than not in other ways. They also need to remember that without money earners, it's back to subsistence farming for everyone.
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« Reply #882 on: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 17:05:10 »

Some of these comments are pretty funny and some are actually quite sensible.

FPTP. It's the system we have and it's the system that every voter has to take into consideration prior to placing their cross. The Conservatives and Labour, certainly until Thursday had absolutely no reason to change it. Is it fair? No. Will it change in the next Parliament? Almost certainly not.

I could go on and on about Labour fuck up's, since '97: Lisbon treaty, Open borders, Taxation in all areas, Devolution, Illegal wars, PFI, GP contracts, Ridiculous over expansion of the welfare state, Tax credits, Economic policy built on debt, Housing policy, Lack of regulation over the Banking industry, Profligacy, Lack of contingency planning, NHS targets, Police targets to name but a few. That would just be fighting yesterday's battle, not that they should be forgotten of course.

The fact is, any sensible person could see that the Labour party couldn't accept, or even understand, not that they caused the global financial crisis, but that they left the the UK in a precarious state when it arrived. The fact that they wouldn't admit to that is, as far as I'm concerned, the deciding factor for most voters and the reason why the Conservatives won by so many seats.

Arriba and Reg can bore us to death with their tired old prejudices about the Tories but they need to remember that MOST people work for a living, pay their own way and have no problem contributing to society financially, and more often than not in other ways. They also need to remember that without money earners, it's back to subsistence farming for everyone.

Exactly. Though you'll have to accept a plate of acerbic and barbed comments with a pinch of denial and a dash of self righteousness and served on a huge pile of moral high ground. Washed down with bottled beer and champagne socialism.
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #883 on: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 17:05:25 »

Some of these comments are pretty funny and some are actually quite sensible.

FPTP. It's the system we have and it's the system that every voter has to take into consideration prior to placing their cross. The Conservatives and Labour, certainly until Thursday had absolutely no reason to change it. Is it fair? No. Will it change in the next Parliament? Almost certainly not.

I could go on and on about Labour fuck up's, since '97: Lisbon treaty, Open borders, Taxation in all areas, Devolution, Illegal wars, PFI, GP contracts, Ridiculous over expansion of the welfare state, Tax credits, Economic policy built on debt, Housing policy, Lack of regulation over the Banking industry, Profligacy, Lack of contingency planning, NHS targets, Police targets to name but a few. That would just be fighting yesterday's battle, not that they should be forgotten of course.

The fact is, any sensible person could see that the Labour party couldn't accept, or even understand, not that they caused the global financial crisis, but that they left the the UK in a precarious state when it arrived. The fact that they wouldn't admit to that is, as far as I'm concerned, the deciding factor for most voters and the reason why the Conservatives won by so many seats.

Arriba and Reg can bore us to death with their tired old prejudices about the Tories but they need to remember that MOST people work for a living, pay their own way and have no problem contributing to society financially, and more often than not in other ways. They also need to remember that without money earners, it's back to subsistence farming for everyone.

How did the BNP go this time round?
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Ironside
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« Reply #884 on: Sunday, May 10, 2015, 17:14:36 »

How did the BNP go this time round?
Nearly as well as Labour...
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Genius, Gentleman Explorer, French Cabaret Chantoose  and Small Bets Placed and someone who knows who they are changed my signature but its only know that I can be arsed to change it....and I mean all the spelling mistakes.

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