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Author Topic: Let's Get Political!  (Read 1995446 times)
herthab
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« Reply #345 on: Saturday, March 28, 2015, 23:28:01 »

Labour spent money we didn't have, so when the crash came we were harder hit than we would have been under a Tory government (as our debts wouldn't have been as high). We're still paying now for the Labour spending and will be for a long time to come. GWH being a good example, Labour get the credit for building it, but the current Tory government are the ones still having to find the money to continue making the payments on it.
So what would you suggest, we don't build hospitals? The financial crisis wasn't a result of over spending in the public sector was it?
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manc_red

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« Reply #346 on: Sunday, March 29, 2015, 00:25:07 »

Labour spent money we didn't have, so when the crash came we were harder hit than we would have been under a Tory government (as our debts wouldn't have been as high). We're still paying now for the Labour spending and will be for a long time to come. GWH being a good example, Labour get the credit for building it, but the current Tory government are the ones still having to find the money to continue making the payments on it.
No, it was PFI.

Anyway, would you rather be treated at PHM?
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Red and Proud

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« Reply #347 on: Sunday, March 29, 2015, 01:31:35 »

So what would you suggest, we don't build hospitals? The financial crisis wasn't a result of over spending in the public sector was it?

You build new where you absolutely need to and re invest where you have existing, like PMH and when you can afford them. PFI were in financial terms to the tax payer like fucking timeshare scams, representing a scandalous waste of money that as said our kids will be paying for. Actually it is, that and piss poor financial regulation. Both responsibilities of the government of the day, who were?

In my adult life time, on the two occasions where the conservatives have come to power, they have had to rebuild an economy wrecked by labour. The last labour government inherited the best set of donestic economic figures of any incoming government in history. So where did it all go wrong? See my first paragraph. The coalition government inherited the worst figures an incoming government has in history.

You cannot turn a super tanker encconomy round like a speed boat. Those of you reading this who have gotten into financial difficulty think how long it took you to get out of the shit and then think of the sacrifices you made along the way to achieve it. You just cannot declare yourself bankrupt as a nation like a private individual BTW if you managed to pull that one off.

A countries finances are no different, the figures are obviously bigger but the rules and principles remain the same.

If labour had won the last general election I shudder to think of what things would be like now. They too would have had to make some very hard choices. The difference being is they would have borrowed more to try and sort them out and taxed more into the bargain.......

Would you jeopardise your family's security and future by borrowing more when you're already up to your neck?

It is remarkably two faced of labour to keep bashing the bankers. They happily cosied up to them when Brown was chancellor and reaping in the tax reciepts at the same time. I wince at the naivety of Brown & Balls that they not only thought they had abolished boom & bust but that it would carry on ad infinitem, astonishing.

You don't need a degree in economics to realise that an economic cycle has peaks and troughs.

I don't particularly like Cameron's style and substance on the other hand Milliband is a puppet for the unions and I don't believe he has the where with all to cut it as PM. David Milliband on the other hand, different class.

For me it comes down to hard cash, not mine personally but that of our great country. If we as a nation prosper so do we today and our kids tomorrow, everything else is a side show because no matter who you vote for the government always gets in.

« Last Edit: Sunday, March 29, 2015, 11:55:28 by Red and Proud » Logged
Arriba

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« Reply #348 on: Sunday, March 29, 2015, 14:10:34 »

Labour spent money we didn't have, so when the crash came we were harder hit than we would have been under a Tory government (as our debts wouldn't have been as high). We're still paying now for the Labour spending and will be for a long time to come. GWH being a good example, Labour get the credit for building it, but the current Tory government are the ones still having to find the money to continue making the payments on it.
How do you know that the Tories wouldn't have spent as much? I don't remember their respective leaders being critical of the then Labour government. Maybe I'm wrong?
 I do remember them agreeing with a lot of the decisions then taken and everyone was riding along with it nicely. As with all past political arguments and mistakes, hindsight is a useful thing.
I'm sure that the main reasons Labour were ousted(the iraq war and financial crash) would have happend anyway. A lot of the good they did is forgotten.

Labour should take the credit for the new hospitals and other improvements made. They were needed. The old pmh was in a right state(my Mrs worked there) and was not fit for purpose.

What we are seeing now with the nhs is people being treated in car parks and dying on trolleys in corridors. It is in rapid decline if the comments from the staff who work in it are to be believed.
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Red and Proud

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« Reply #349 on: Sunday, March 29, 2015, 16:02:11 »

How do you know that the Tories wouldn't have spent as much? I don't remember their respective leaders being critical of the then Labour government. Maybe I'm wrong?
 I do remember them agreeing with a lot of the decisions then taken and everyone was riding along with it nicely. As with all past political arguments and mistakes, hindsight is a useful thing.
I'm sure that the main reasons Labour were ousted(the iraq war and financial crash) would have happend anyway. A lot of the good they did is forgotten.

Labour should take the credit for the new hospitals and other improvements made. They were needed. The old pmh was in a right state(my Mrs worked there) and was not fit for purpose.

What we are seeing now with the nhs is people being treated in car parks and dying on trolleys in corridors. It is in rapid decline if the comments from the staff who work in it are to be believed.

We don't but they didn't. They were not in power were they?
I think you are. I seem to remember a lot of opposition to the PFI initiatives, nationally and locally. I agree with you the Iraq war was a contributing factor. Again Arriba, with the money rolling into the exchequer, money should have been put away to mend the roof when the sun was shining in financial terms not flittering it away (I go back to mcboom & bust again and his favourite buzz word prudence), prudence my arse. I can't argue WRT the state of the old PMH. However, the new hospital as new as it is appears to not be fit for purpose either....

Again I can't disagree about the treatment of patients as like those who do not work in the NHS I can only go by what I see in the media and personal experience. But let me remind you that the last government put on an extra 800k-1m non jobs onto the P&L account of GB PLC, who has to pay for them? It has taken the coalition five years to get some financial stability into the economy and forecasts show another five years to reach the target of being in the black. That's ten years to "undo" what 12 years of labour did.

As I said I'm no fan of Cameron but as it stands the punitive tax raising that labour are proposing is like pissing in the wind and the really, really wealthy that labour despise, though most of them seem to have done ok themselves will find ways of avoiding the extra levies placed upon them. The more you tax the more the black economy grows, something labour seem to no recognise. I wonder how may "cash" receipts Balls really asks for?
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Arriba

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« Reply #350 on: Sunday, March 29, 2015, 17:25:19 »

We don't but they didn't. They were not in power were they?
I think you are. I seem to remember a lot of opposition to the PFI initiatives, nationally and locally. I agree with you the Iraq war was a contributing factor. Again Arriba, with the money rolling into the exchequer, money should have been put away to mend the roof when the sun was shining in financial terms not flittering it away (I go back to mcboom & bust again and his favourite buzz word prudence), prudence my arse. I can't argue WRT the state of the old PMH. However, the new hospital as new as it is appears to not be fit for purpose either....

Again I can't disagree about the treatment of patients as like those who do not work in the NHS I can only go by what I see in the media and personal experience. But let me remind you that the last government put on an extra 800k-1m non jobs onto the P&L account of GB PLC, who has to pay for them? It has taken the coalition five years to get some financial stability into the economy and forecasts show another five years to reach the target of being in the black. That's ten years to "undo" what 12 years of labour did.

As I said I'm no fan of Cameron but as it stands the punitive tax raising that labour are proposing is like pissing in the wind and the really, really wealthy that labour despise, though most of them seem to have done ok themselves will find ways of avoiding the extra levies placed upon them. The more you tax the more the black economy grows, something labour seem to no recognise. I wonder how may "cash" receipts Balls really asks for?
It's Mostly all with hindsight though isn't it? I'll take your word for the at the time opposition of pfi(I cannot remember) but I do remember the Tories endorsing much of what Labour were doing during much of their term. Remember the Tories were a joke for quite a while and totally unelectable during that time.
Undoubtedly Labour made mistakes but even with those mistakes I'd still take their years in government over any other party.

I voted lib dem last time as I was disillusioned with Labour. Again with hindsight that was a big error on my part. It won't happen again. We learn by our mistakes.
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herthab
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« Reply #351 on: Sunday, March 29, 2015, 17:26:13 »

So what about the punitive measures the Tories inflict on the most vulnerable in society, in the name of austerity, while their old school buddies in the City and large corporations are hardly affected? If revenue needed to be increased  (and it obviously was) fine, but there has to be a more equitable way of doing it than the Conservatives method of robbing the poor to pay the rich.
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Red and Proud

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« Reply #352 on: Sunday, March 29, 2015, 20:15:05 »

So what about the punitive measures the Tories inflict on the most vulnerable in society, in the name of austerity, while their old school buddies in the City and large corporations are hardly affected? If revenue needed to be increased  (and it obviously was) fine, but there has to be a more equitable way of doing it than the Conservatives method of robbing the poor to pay the rich.

I assume your first sentence was a retorical question and not aimed at me? However, I'll humour you with a reply. I don't know about the "punitive" measures, I'm sure in your mind you have examples so could you be more specific? You mean the movers and shakers in the city and big business that labour cosied upto while the going was good and who they now vilify as it suits their bash the posh boys and their money? Just have a look at the private schools attended by labour MPs and their respective career paths and directorships, you may be surprised, hey you could even class them as pseudo Tories if you did not know they were labour MPs. I think robbing the poor to pay the rich is a best a bit dramatic, as if you are yourself working and living in relative comfort you would have benefitted from the raise in the personal tax allowance for starters. You could always give it back as could anyone.

I'm not condoning or condemning either of the two main parties, just trying to add some balance. The electorate tends to have short memories.

Personally I think overseas aid is to much and should be stopped for some and realigned for other countries but I don't make those decisions the government do. I also think we'd be better off outside the EU, just think what we could spend £53m PER DAY on?, every day. Maybe those vulnerable members of society could be given more? We could also spend more on our armed forces, the NHS, the police.

However you look at it the tax take of any government in any fiscal year is only so big, how you divvy up the cake is down to the ideological view of the incumbents at the time.
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herthab
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« Reply #353 on: Sunday, March 29, 2015, 20:33:36 »

It's pointless to get into a debate on politics. For every argument there is a counter argument, for every example, a counter example.
I am not a Labour sympathiser (At least not since Blair turned them into a ideologically  bankrupt party) I just think that The Consevatives version of society is not as fair, just or equitable as it should, or could be.
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stfc1975

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« Reply #354 on: Sunday, March 29, 2015, 20:42:52 »

It's pointless to get into a debate on politics. For every argument there is a counter argument, for every example, a counter example.
I am not a Labour sympathiser (At least not since Blair turned them into a ideologically  bankrupt party) I just think that The Consevatives version of society is not as fair, just or equitable as it should, or could be.

Agree with this totally ...then I looked at who started the thread   Eek.

My opinion still hasn't changed  , bunch of cunts the lot of them just filling their own pockets.
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herthab
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« Reply #355 on: Sunday, March 29, 2015, 21:41:29 »

Agree with this totally ...then I looked at who started the thread   Eek.

My opinion still hasn't changed  , bunch of cunts the lot of them just filling their own pockets.

It is pointless, but I'm still interested in how other people think. For what it's worth, I agree with you on the bunch of cunts stance.
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Arriba

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« Reply #356 on: Sunday, March 29, 2015, 21:47:51 »

Who you going to vote for then herthab?
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herthab
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« Reply #357 on: Sunday, March 29, 2015, 21:55:17 »

Who you going to vote for then herthab?

To be honest I don't know yet, it's easier to find reasons not to vote for any of them but that's a cop out. I voted Lib Dem last time, which didn't work out the way I thought it would!
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Nemo
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« Reply #358 on: Sunday, March 29, 2015, 22:05:01 »

Maybe it's because I don't really align with a party but I find it odd that so many people are convinced that one party can do no wrong and that all the others want to ruin the country and sell the remains to the Unions/private Companies/the EU/Darth Vader (delete as applicable). Every party has their better points and their worse, and I don't believe they're all pigs in the trough with no interest in society, there are people on all sides of all parties that I am sure are doing what they think is right.

All this adversarial bollocks over relatively minor policy differences feels like a bit of a dumb sideshow to me.
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Arriba

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« Reply #359 on: Sunday, March 29, 2015, 22:08:22 »

To be honest I don't know yet, it's easier to find reasons not to vote for any of them but that's a cop out. I voted Lib Dem last time, which didn't work out the way I thought it would!
I don't think the vast majority thought their vote for the lib dems would have seen the results we've had with it. They're now a joke party and will get absolutely trounced. Worryingly ukip will get their share I fear which is even worse
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