Whats wrong with football?

[Red Frog]

Why is it too few? It suggests there might be an issue, nothing more IMO. As I said last time this came up, unless you know how many black players are going on to do their coaching badges, the 4% figure is irrelevant.

Sorry, thought I'd cancelled that before posting it as I can see why people get annoyed when there surely wasn't any race issue involved in those sackings. It was just a convenient hook for a campaigner to publicise the wider issue.

To answer your question though, I don't know how many black players are taking their badges, but if the proportion of high-level black coaches is so far below that of black players, then that's a lot of BME players not moving up the coaching ladder, which would at least indicate there might an issue around progression, as you say.

[Talk Talk]

This is all very silly to me. Everybody is an individual, no matter what colour they are. Who is to say what career a player should take after their playing days are over? You could probably find similar statistics about the number of coloured players not running pubs instead?

[Red Frog]

This is all very silly to me. Everybody is an individual, no matter what colour they are. Who is to say what career a player should take after their playing days are over? You could probably find similar statistics about the number of coloured players not running pubs instead?

Ha ha. Right, that would be a valid comparison wouldn't it. Given that 100% of black footballers had spent their career up to retirement in, um, football, it seems relevant to compare like with like (proportions of players : coaches).

Not saying it's necessarily a problem of racism in football, but maybe of equality of opportunity in society. FWIW I think things are probably improving, but it's an oil-tanker that's turning very slowly.

[Amir]

Sorry, thought I'd cancelled that before posting it as I can see why people get annoyed when there surely wasn't any race issue involved in those sackings. It was just a convenient hook for a campaigner to publicise the wider issue.

To answer your question though, I don't know how many black players are taking their badges, but if the proportion of high-level black coaches is so far below that of black players, then that's a lot of BME players not moving up the coaching ladder, which would at least indicate there might an issue around progression, as you say.

It just seems nonsensical to even have the conversation, when we don't even have all the facts. I've never seen this mentioned anywhere, although I wouldn't say I've read that much on it.

It could just be that black players aren't as interested in coaching, or that they are less likely to try because they perceive they won't be given a chance. We also have to realise there will be a time lapse as today's managers and coaches could have been player's in the 70/80s, when there were less black players and different attitudes.

I'd give it more credence if there were black coaches saying they can't get jobs/move up the ladder, but all I've seen is people moaning there aren't enough black managers. Maybe I'm wrong(it's happened before).

[Talk Talk]

It could just be that black players aren't as interested in coaching, or that they are less likely to try because they perceive they won't be given a chance. We also have to realise there will be a time lapse as today's managers and coaches could have been player's in the 70/80s, when there were less black players and different attitudes.

That's where I was headed with my comment. Good post.

[Skinny Pete]

Lots of black French players. How many of them have become managers?

Think Jean Tigana did quite well.

[Ells]

It just seems nonsensical to even have the conversation, when we don't even have all the facts. I've never seen this mentioned anywhere, although I wouldn't say I've read that much on it.

It could just be that black players aren't as interested in coaching, or that they are less likely to try because they perceive they won't be given a chance. We also have to realise there will be a time lapse as today's managers and coaches could have been player's in the 70/80s, when there were less black players and different attitudes.

I'd give it more credence if there were black coaches saying they can't get jobs/move up the ladder, but all I've seen is people moaning there aren't enough black managers. Maybe I'm wrong(it's happened before).

You've just given two potential reasons there why there aren't more BME managers, that's not quite disagreeing with people that say it's in issue that needs addressing!

[Posh Red]

I call racism against the English, because only 25% of managers in the Premier league are English.

[Amir]

You've just given two potential reasons there why there aren't more BME managers, that's not quite disagreeing with people that say it's in issue that needs addressing!

I gave three potential reasons. I've no idea how correct they are, I put them forward purely for balance.

It needs investigating to establish what is causing the disparity, otherwise we're just shouting 'sort it out!' without knowing what the problem is, or even if there is one.

[Red Frog]

I gave three potential reasons. I've no idea how correct they are, I put them forward purely for balance.

It needs investigating to establish what is causing the disparity, otherwise we're just shouting 'sort it out!' without knowing what the problem is, or even if there is one.

I'm really not crying "sort it out". I just can't help biting every time race and football comes up on the TEF and people confidently say it's a non-issue. Given none of us know all our facts, I think that's a more extreme view than saying, well it might be an issue.

[Ironside]

Sorry, thought I'd cancelled that before posting it as I can see why people get annoyed when there surely wasn't any race issue involved in those sackings. It was just a convenient hook for a campaigner to publicise the wider issue.

To answer your question though, I don't know how many black players are taking their badges, but if the proportion of high-level black coaches is so far below that of black players, then that's a lot of BME players not moving up the coaching ladder, which would at least indicate there might an issue around progression, as you say.

What? Like the issue of freedom of choice? The choice not to take their coaching badges and retire on their millions?

What about the freedom of choice to take their coaching badges and have the self awareness to recognise they aren't interested or capable of going into management at the highest level of the game?

What about the freedom of choice to decide that they could make a difference at the grass roots level of the game on the streets of Luton or Soweto or Accra?

What about the freedom of choice to decide they would like to pursue a different career when they hang up their boots (not unlike many people do when they reach their mid-30's)

What do you want to do? Enforce some kind of quota system to make some black people do a job they don't want to do?

I'm interested in finding out the answer and not having a go.

Football always has been an industry in which the cream will rise to the top which has been proven on the pitch in the last two decades. That was driven by the various 'kick it out' campaigns. Considering these campaigns were driven by the footballing authorities and with the full support of the clubs (albeit mainly for commercial reasons rather than any altruistic motive), I don't see the argument that there is an issue in English football about a lack of ethnic managers. Plenty have been given the opportunity, and plenty have failed.

On the pitch we say if they're good enough they'll make it. Surely the same applies off it?

[Exiled Bob]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/34674206

The media gushing over this lot because the fucking "class of 92" are co-owners. In fact the football media's love-in with everything Man U fucking nited.

[Talk Talk]

What? Like the issue of freedom of choice? The choice not to take their coaching badges and retire on their millions?

What about the freedom of choice to take their coaching badges and have the self awareness to recognise they aren't interested or capable of going into management at the highest level of the game?

What about the freedom of choice to decide that they could make a difference at the grass roots level of the game on the streets of Luton or Soweto or Accra?

What about the freedom of choice to decide they would like to pursue a different career when they hang up their boots (not unlike many people do when they reach their mid-30's)

What do you want to do? Enforce some kind of quota system to make some black people do a job they don't want to do?

I'm interested in finding out the answer and not having a go.

Football always has been an industry in which the cream will rise to the top which has been proven on the pitch in the last two decades. That was driven by the various 'kick it out' campaigns. Considering these campaigns were driven by the footballing authorities and with the full support of the clubs (albeit mainly for commercial reasons rather than any altruistic motive), I don't see the argument that there is an issue in English football about a lack of ethnic managers. Plenty have been given the opportunity, and plenty have failed.

On the pitch we say if they're good enough they'll make it. Surely the same applies off it?

Much more eloquent than I said

 

[Ells]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/34674206

The media gushing over this lot because the fucking "class of 92" are co-owners. In fact the football media's love-in with everything Man U fucking nited.

This is annoying me too, particularly as the Beeb seem to be insisting on dressing it up like they're actually supporting non league football. Patronising fucks.

[Red Frog]

What? Like the issue of freedom of choice? The choice not to take their coaching badges and retire on their millions?

What about the freedom of choice to take their coaching badges and have the self awareness to recognise they aren't interested or capable of going into management at the highest level of the game?

What about the freedom of choice to decide that they could make a difference at the grass roots level of the game on the streets of Luton or Soweto or Accra?

What about the freedom of choice to decide they would like to pursue a different career when they hang up their boots (not unlike many people do when they reach their mid-30's)

What do you want to do? Enforce some kind of quota system to make some black people do a job they don't want to do?

I'm interested in finding out the answer and not having a go.

Football always has been an industry in which the cream will rise to the top which has been proven on the pitch in the last two decades. That was driven by the various 'kick it out' campaigns. Considering these campaigns were driven by the footballing authorities and with the full support of the clubs (albeit mainly for commercial reasons rather than any altruistic motive), I don't see the argument that there is an issue in English football about a lack of ethnic managers. Plenty have been given the opportunity, and plenty have failed.

On the pitch we say if they're good enough they'll make it. Surely the same applies off it?

Ooh look who's just crawled out from under their Front National stone.

I must be doing something right.