Gordon Brown

[Talk Talk]

What's your view on David Icke?

I have honestly never slept with him.

No seriously(?), the man is deranged beyond help I am afraid. If you took a twelve inch ruler and put the mainstream at zero and someone like me who is considered 'alternative' or more likely 'difficult' or probably 'a nut job' at a quarter of an inch, Icke would be somewhere at 11". Only God, Paul Davies and the tooth fairy live at the full foot.

[iffy]

If you're an old fashioned socialist, who should you vote for now because I'm struggling. Who actually represents the good old fashioned working man, which weas traditionally Labour's turf. There were 4 things I said I'd never do in life. Eat tomatoes or any derivative, support the Scum, engage in sexual relations with another man or animal and vote Tory. At the moment I'm seriously in danger of compromising the last one. As i want out of Europe I can vote UKIP but I'm bloody confused.  

The tomatoes thing is a bit weird. Care to elaborate?

[Talk Talk]

All your questions are more or less variants of the question "why does the state have the rights it has over individuals and what are the limits of those rights". These are interesting questions.

As a member of a community, you give up certain things in exchange for things better delivered as part of group. Security is the obvious thing. Insurance is another - risks are better managed when shared by a big group of us. This creates a logic for healthcare and a welfare state.

But it's important to always test the balance of rights between individuals and groups. Either through democratic institutions (like elections) or civil society (like protests) or civil disobedience.

From a political philosophy point, you would be at home (I'm being presumptuous here) with Robert Nozick, whose "Anarchy, State and Utopia" is an interesting rebuttal to Rawls' "Theory of Justice". I think he's a bit batty, but at least it's closely argued. Personally I like Amaryta Sen's "Development as Freedom" and his ideas on capabilities but you should read that as a counter to Nozick. Put 'em on your christmas list.

Thanks, I will have a look.

[Talk Talk]

The tomatoes thing is a bit weird. Care to elaborate?

Fuck it, You have done it now. I'm off to bed. Even I can't take a CS diatribe against tomatoes. Bloody Tomatoist.

[chalkies_shorts]

The tomatoes thing is a bit weird. Care to elaborate?

I'm glad you don't find the other things weird. Its an unatural neurosis of mine ( not shared by many ) I've spouted on here a few times.
For once I agree with TT and i won't go into diatribe mode.

[Simon Pieman]

Please stop talking about the soldiers like you have some sort of trademark on them. You don't.

It winds me up when people do that. Like I or anyone else would know what thousands of dead people would think.

More of a general observtion more than anything aimed at anyone. I think it's one of those expressions which sometimes gets used in too serious a context.

I'm not convinced the entire British public is brainwashed, there are plenty of political parties which people can and do vote for; Open to influence and suggestion perhaps. Regardless, if the political system itself was so imbearable then there's always the option to move. It's quite ironic how a lot of people move to Britain to get away from political oppression. In that context things here really aren't that bad.

Speaking of brainwashing, a snipe over the Prime Minister's handwriting and spelling is hardly going to bring his downfall.

[ron dodgers]

I blame Victoria's government for nationalising the East India Company in the late 19th Century - should have left the Empire to the companies - would never have got in this mess (apart from Afghanistan of course)

[flammableBen]

I haven't even read the last 3 or so pages of this thread, but I'll throw an oddson bet that I'll disagree with talk talk.

[flammableBen]

All this talk about Brown sending personal letter has got to give you some respect for Thatcher. She'd pen letters to Falklands widows with ink from her own dark teats. Dennis would suck out the lumps and mix it with his own saliva, then Margaret would dib her pen in his mouth.

[Bogus Dave]

Help help! I'm being opressed

[Phil_S]

Talk Talk has made some good points though. We have been bounced into a European Superstate run by an army of unelected officials for their own ends & to suit Germany & France. They are also a bit like new labour who seem to make laws merely to justify their own existence. Another common denominator is the willingness to lie. eg.We were promised a referendum by Brown & Co & that promise was broken.
I suspect that their love for europe is because it promises untold riches for failed politicians like Mandelson, & the Kinnocks where they can't be booted out by the electorate. Similar if you like to the House of Lords but with more money.
It's easier to answer the question of what is right about Europe than what is wrong, & probably the answer to that is the concept of free trade. (This is what we voted on in the 70's, nothing else (Thanks to the lies of Heath)).
Why can't we be like Norway, be a trading partner, but be independent. They are doing very nicely thankyou.



I look at Norway, & how well they have done by rem
 

[pauld]

Talk Talk has made some good points though. We have been bounced into a European Superstate

Yes we were. In the 80s by Thatcher and Major - the damage was done by Maastricht, Lisbon just ties up the bows.

[ducks] 

[sonicyouth]

Why can't we be like Norway, be a trading partner, but be independent. They are doing very nicely thankyou.



I look at Norway, & how well they have done by rem
 

I am afraid you are glorifying Norway's role a bit there. Norway is a trading partner through the EEA, which is an agreement for countries not wanting to be a part of the EU. The decision to join this agreement was made by the Norwegian parliament in 1992, and through the agreement, Norwegian sovereignty was handed to the ESA and the EFTA court. Norway still has to obey to several EU laws, and can only oppose them by using their veto- and Norwegian politicians are generally piss scared of using it, because they fear sanctions from the EU and being kicked out of the trading community.

Basically we're standing with one foot inside the EU and one on the outside, having to obey, but without actually being able to shape the decisions being made. To be honest, Norway's position in Europe is not something to envy- trying to be independent in Europe is, sadly, quite impossible, and the countries trying to stay independent have turned into a "rich man's club" (Norway, Switzerland, Lichtenstein...) They may seem "independent" but they are under the control of the EU and other NGOs as well, it's not something to envy, nor is it something to be proud of.

Mrs Sonic

[Arriba]

you've changed sonic.i like the new you.you're less angry and arguementative.love has calmed you down i reckon.

[Don Rogers Shop]

I am afraid you are glorifying Norway's role a bit there. Norway is a trading partner through the EEA, which is an agreement for countries not wanting to be a part of the EU. The decision to join this agreement was made by the Norwegian parliament in 1992, and through the agreement, Norwegian sovereignty was handed to the ESA and the EFTA court. Norway still has to obey to several EU laws, and can only oppose them by using their veto- and Norwegian politicians are generally piss scared of using it, because they fear sanctions from the EU and being kicked out of the trading community.

Basically we're standing with one foot inside the EU and one on the outside, having to obey, but without actually being able to shape the decisions being made. To be honest, Norway's position in Europe is not something to envy- trying to be independent in Europe is, sadly, quite impossible, and the countries trying to stay independent have turned into a "rich man's club" (Norway, Switzerland, Lichtenstein...) They may seem "independent" but they are under the control of the EU and other NGOs as well, it's not something to envy, nor is it something to be proud of.

Mrs Sonic

What are you wearing