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« Reply #10185 on: Thursday, July 23, 2020, 12:35:30 »

Substitute the word use/used with manipulation/manipulated and the statement increases in accuracy
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pauld

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« Reply #10186 on: Thursday, July 23, 2020, 13:16:35 »

Even the Telegraph now admitting that we're not going to be able to agree a deal with the EU now. So not very "oven-ready" after all then?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/21/britain-close-abandoning-hope-brexit-trade-deal/

I wonder at what point do those who voted for Brexit admit to themselves that they've been consistently lied to throughout.
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horlock07

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« Reply #10187 on: Thursday, July 23, 2020, 13:23:23 »


I wonder at what point do those who voted for Brexit admit to themselves that they've been consistently lied to throughout.

Some people like being lied to, hence the bizarre world of Cuckold pornography.
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Peter Venkman

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« Reply #10188 on: Thursday, July 23, 2020, 13:30:38 »

Some people like being lied to, hence the bizarre world of Cuckold pornography.
Ironically the domain of the Tory politician, I know several women in the "sex industry" that can confirm this.
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Pax Romana

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« Reply #10189 on: Thursday, July 23, 2020, 15:55:05 »

I wonder at what point do those who voted for Brexit admit to themselves that they've been consistently lied to throughout.

I wonder at what point do those who voted for Remain admit to themselves that they've been consistently expecting that telling 17 million people that they are morons will turn out far more productively than it actually does.

(and yes I voted to Remain pretty confident at the time, and now 100% certain, that it was the best thing for our country)
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pauld

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« Reply #10190 on: Thursday, July 23, 2020, 15:59:01 »

I wonder at what point do those who voted for Remain admit to themselves that they've been consistently expecting that telling 17 million people that they are morons will turn out far more productively than it actually does.
That wasn't what I was doing. I know plenty of people who voted to Leave after careful considered thought, having believed the assurances they were given around the ease with which trade deals could be done, that No Deal wasn't an option etc. They were lied to. That's on the people who lied to them, not on them. But it is hard to admit you've been sold a pup, so people tend to have an emotional attachment to their choices. But there surely comes a point where the penny drops.
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horlock07

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« Reply #10191 on: Thursday, July 23, 2020, 16:42:04 »

That wasn't what I was doing. I know plenty of people who voted to Leave after careful considered thought, having believed the assurances they were given around the ease with which trade deals could be done, that No Deal wasn't an option etc. They were lied to. That's on the people who lied to them, not on them. But it is hard to admit you've been sold a pup, so people tend to have an emotional attachment to their choices. But there surely comes a point where the penny drops.

Interestingly (well maybe to some) I was listening to a pod about psychology the other day, they noted that a massive problem with the remain campaign and subsequently is that, put simply, you cannot counter peoples ingrained and often long-standing emotions (including prejudices) with facts, the way hoomans are wired it just doesn't work. Cummings and his mates get this, remain never have. 
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Flashheart

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« Reply #10192 on: Thursday, July 23, 2020, 16:49:33 »

Interestingly (well maybe to some) I was listening to a pod about psychology the other day, they noted that a massive problem with the remain campaign and subsequently is that, put simply, you cannot counter peoples ingrained and often long-standing emotions (including prejudices) with facts, the way hoomans are wired it just doesn't work. Cummings and his mates get this, remain never have. 

Cognitive dissonance.

A lot of people get very uncomfortable when faced with facts that contradict their beliefs. Many will actually get quite irritable and even upset when faced with something that challenges them. They will then tend look for any way to reconcile the issue, one of which is to simply ignore the facts that show them wrong. This often means attacking (verbally or otherwise) the person that presented the facts.

I encounter it on pretty much a daily basis.
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Pax Romana

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« Reply #10193 on: Thursday, July 23, 2020, 18:31:19 »

That wasn't what I was doing. I know plenty of people who voted to Leave after careful considered thought, having believed the assurances they were given around the ease with which trade deals could be done, that No Deal wasn't an option etc. They were lied to. That's on the people who lied to them, not on them. But it is hard to admit you've been sold a pup, so people tend to have an emotional attachment to their choices. But there surely comes a point where the penny drops.

I struggle to buy that line.  I don't know you personally so you may sincerely believe it, but most Remainers who talk about "thoughtful people innocently duped by master propagandists" are being crudely disingenuous.   They actually mean "you're a moron but I'm not quite prepared to say it to your face".  

The parallel line is "I'm not saying that everyone who voted Leave is a racist but everyone who is a racist voted Leave".  Again totally disingenuous.  Virtually everyone who says that believes that all Leave voters are ignorant racists.

We didn't lose the vote because of any Cummings/Johnson masterplan duping 17m people.  We lost it because we  arrogantly believed that 'these people' would fall in line once their betters explained it to them.  We were wrong and Britain is paying a high price for our complacency.
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RobertT

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« Reply #10194 on: Thursday, July 23, 2020, 19:38:48 »

I doubt if very many people voted Leave for Economic reasons.

People voted leave because they are sold on the idea of Nationhood - that we should be a Sovereign Country that doesn't join Politically with others

or (sometimes and)

They were fed-up of foreign people rocking up on "their shores"

I'm fairly certain it's one or both of those reasons.  No amount of Economic data is going to sway someone from those fundamentally ideological or emotional viewpoints.

I'm also fairly certain a large % of people who voted Remain only did so because of Economic reasons.  A very small % of the Remain vote would have been because they believed in the 'European Project".
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« Reply #10195 on: Thursday, July 23, 2020, 20:13:09 »

I bet a fair few voted leave because of the contributions we pay to Europe and the waste they see in EU bureaucracy.

well, more than 2% anyway
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RobertT

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« Reply #10196 on: Thursday, July 23, 2020, 20:31:08 »

I bet a fair few voted leave because of the contributions we pay to Europe and the waste they see in EU bureaucracy.

well, more than 2% anyway

I'd roll that into the Sovereignty issue - why pay to belong to something beyond our borders.
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Richie Wellen-Dowd

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« Reply #10197 on: Thursday, July 23, 2020, 21:12:25 »

Then there's those who see the EU as a neoliberal bully of smaller economies, Greece being the most obvious example, and cowardly ignoring issues like Catalonia.
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« Reply #10198 on: Thursday, July 23, 2020, 21:27:23 »

The parallel line is "I'm not saying that everyone who voted Leave is a racist but everyone who is a racist voted Leave".  Again totally disingenuous.  Virtually everyone who says that believes that all Leave voters are ignorant racists.

I have to take issue with that.  Genuinely, I do believe the Leave vote was comprised mainly of people who felt that there was a better future outside the EU - with increased control of our own affairs/sovereignty as a result of trade deals that we would be able to forge elsewhere.  And some racists, who were always going to vote Leave no matter what.

I do believe that the former group were sold a false, unachievable proposition by the Leave campaign - and that this group is becoming increasingly disappointed as reality dawns.  I don't believe that the country is 52% racist.
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pauld

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« Reply #10199 on: Thursday, July 23, 2020, 21:58:08 »

I struggle to buy that line.  I don't know you personally so you may sincerely believe it, but most Remainers who talk about "thoughtful people innocently duped by master propagandists" are being crudely disingenuous.   They actually mean "you're a moron but I'm not quite prepared to say it to your face".  

The parallel line is "I'm not saying that everyone who voted Leave is a racist but everyone who is a racist voted Leave".  Again totally disingenuous.  Virtually everyone who says that believes that all Leave voters are ignorant racists.
I've said similar things to both those (to make clear they're not my quotes) and meant both. TBF I think I have proven I have a track record of not being afraid to call someone a moron or a racist or both when I think they are. I don't think most Leave voters are racist; I do think both Leave campaigns used racism in their campaign, Farage/Banks most blatantly but Gove and Johnson were happily dogwhistling away with the lies about Turkish accession too. I've said what I think about lies v ignorance. So, yeah, I do think that and fuck off with your "disingenuous".
« Last Edit: Thursday, July 23, 2020, 22:02:08 by pauld » Logged
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