Scottish Independence

[Ardiles]

I'd buy them now! 

[Samdy Gray]

That's what I'm thinking.

I've been keeping an eye on rates for the last few weeks and Salmond certainly isn't doing me any favours at the moment.

[Summerof69]

Taking Devo Max off the ballot paper was a mistake.  The Lib Dem federal option (which I've been a fan of for a long time) would have been enough, I expect, for many like moredonboy who feel as if government from London is too remote.  I have sympathy with the viewpoint; just gutted that it's come to this.

Westminster is too remote from the people in England let alone the people in Scotland. They seemingly live in their own little bubble.

[Bob's Orange]

I lived in Scotland for a while and from the posts on my Facebook page, it seems the split is very much 50/50. The general consensus from YES voters, are that they simply want a Scottish government that they vote for, that decide policies for the people of Scotland, Westminster, to them, is full of rich Tory boys that they don't vote for etc etc. They say they are voting yes for a fairer Scotland for Scots.

the NO voters seemingly don't like or trust Salmond and fear that Scotland can't support itself.

[Reg Smeeton]

Taking Devo Max off the ballot paper was a mistake.  The Lib Dem federal option (which I've been a fan of for a long time) would have been enough, I expect, for many like moredonboy who feel as if government from London is too remote.  I have sympathy with the viewpoint; just gutted that it's come to this.

Instead, we're going to be looking inwards for years now, trying to disentangle a 300 year old apparatus.  We're all going to lose out.  I can't see any winners.  Depressing.

Completely disagree...Osborne et al, have shown with their last minute shit in their pants devo offer, that fiscal powers aren't the key driver for retaining the Union.  That is defence.....now realistically seen as the only thing worth keeping the Union for, from the Government/Establishment perspective.

I posted something along these lines back in March, in early days of the thread, but the breaking of the Union is going to ask fundamental questions about our place in the scheme of things, and  I can't see any other answer than we need to become more European, less Uncle Sam's poodle.

With this in mind, the proposed referendum, on continuing membership of the EU is going to be pivotal in forcing some debate on where the remaining UK is heading through the 21 st Century...and that has to be a good thing.

[Ardiles]

The drive for a Yes vote seems very principled and idealistic.  Democratically, there is a problem (ie not getting the governments they vote for) and it needs to be addressed.  But trashing a 300 year old union to get it seems a great shame to me.

Having spent a lot of time in Scotland during the last 10 or 11 years, it strikes me that there are many more things that unite us - shared values, shared history, shared cultural reference points etc. - than divide us.  I don't understand why the No side has not focussed more on these, because the perception of negativity that has harmed the No campaign would surely have been less.  I think folk on all sides are only really going to come to appreciate what we have lost once it's gone.  For all the demonising of 'Westminster', there's actually a lot there that works and works well.  We are not a pariah state, but reading a lot of comments on various forums/message boards, you would think that we are.  Perspective has been a big casualty of this debate.

[Ardiles]

Completely disagree...Osborne et al, have shown with their last minute shit in their pants devo offer, that fiscal powers aren't the key driver for retaining the Union.  That is defence.....now realistically seen as the only thing worth keeping the Union for, from the Government/Establishment perspective.

I think you misunderstood my point, Reg.  The federal solution would be about so much more than money.  It would be about giving Scotland and other regions of the UK a greatly enhanced level of regional democracy, while also retaining the UK umbrella that could deal with issues such as foreign policy and defence.  Not everyone's cup of tea (because ardent Nationalists would want control of those too), but it would have been attractive to the majority.

The Tories in particular have fucked up royally throughout this campaign.  I get the impression that a section of the Yes vote is motivated primarily by wanting to give them a bloody nose and teach them a lesson for being dicks.  But this vote is not like other votes.  The consequences last longer than 5 years.  The Nationalist only needs to win once, and the effects of the vote are then felt forever.  Cameron, Osborne, Clegg...they will all be gone anyway within a few years, but the legacy of the independence vote will be felt for generations.

[Reg Smeeton]

I think you misunderstood my point, Reg.  The federal solution would be about so much more than money.  It would be about giving Scotland and other regions of the UK a greatly enhanced level of regional democracy, while also retaining the UK umbrella that could deal with issues such as foreign policy and defence.  Not everyone's cup of tea (because ardent Nationalists would want control of those too), but it would have been attractive to the majority.

The Tories in particular have fucked up royally throughout this campaign.  I get the impression that a section of the Yes vote is motivated primarily by wanting to give them a bloody nose and teach them a lesson for being dicks.  But this vote is not like other votes.  The consequences last longer than 5 years.  The Nationalist only needs to win once, and the effects of the vote are then felt forever.  Cameron, Osborne, Clegg...they will all be gone anyway within a few years, but the legacy of the independence vote will be felt for generations.

No I don't think I misunderstand....regional government isn't wanted in Britain.....the last Labour government tried to do something for the north, with plans for regional assemblies for the North East, Yorkshire/Lincolnshire and may be one other, but it was firmly rejected by the relatively few voters in a NE referendum about 04, and so put to bed.

Of course the consequences of this will be felt for generations, but there's no reason to think it can't be anything other than a positive, if it forces a collective rethink about how to reform our presently flawed democracy, into something more befitting our reduced status.

[Ardiles]

I think the clamour from (amongst others) the north of England for greater local representation to mirror that being sought in Scotland would indicate that things have moved on since 2004 and that there is now more support for federalism within the UK.  If that referendum in the North East was re-run today, I think you would get an entirely different result - both in terms of turn out and opinion.

[Reg Smeeton]

I think the clamour from (amongst others) the north of England for greater local representation to mirror that being sought in Scotland would indicate that things have moved on since 2004 and that there is now more support for federalism within the UK.  If that referendum in the North East was re-run today, I think you would get an entirely different result - both in terms of turn out and opinion.

I'm not so sure..there is massive apathy particularly amongst the young in politics and the democratic process. Anyway it's not going to happen...the issue ahead now that Scotland has gone it's own way, is the EU, and our place within it.

FWIW, I think it is inevitable that the Sweaties will have to sign up to the Euro and Schengen....no idea other than the need for border controls, how that will impact on us.

[ExiledEric]

Of course they (or we as I've lived in Scotland for 21 years) would have to sign up to the Euro and Schengen.  If we get that far.  The Belgians and Spanish, fearing the break up of their own countries, will inevitably see to it that Scottish entry to the EU is anything but fast tracked.   If it (or in fairness when) it eventually happens, the border fences will indeed go up.  They have to as the immigrant population of Calais would otherwise simply hop on a boat to Scotland and walk into England.

Scottish independence could be very good news for England.  Submarine bases, shipbuilding, financial services jobs will probably all have to relocate somewhere so there could be real benefits for those south of the border.  You'll be able to stop paying the subsidy for renewable energy products which Moredonboy talks about so lovingly (the gap between the cost of production of renewable and conventional energy is closing but subsidies are still required). 

It's really disturbing to hear people pissing away the whole future of their country for the most spurious, ridiculous reasons.  I overheard a woman in a pub at the weekend saying she was voting "yes" because she would get free childcare.  Maybe democracy is a bad thing...

[Reg Smeeton]

Of course they (or we as I've lived in Scotland for 21 years) would have to sign up to the Euro and Schengen.  If we get that far.  The Belgians and Spanish, fearing the break up of their own countries, will inevitably see to it that Scottish entry to the EU is anything but fast tracked.   If it (or in fairness when) it eventually happens, the border fences will indeed go up.  They have to as the immigrant population of Calais would otherwise simply hop on a boat to Scotland and walk into England.

Scottish independence could be very good news for England.  Submarine bases, shipbuilding, financial services jobs will probably all have to relocate somewhere so there could be real benefits for those south of the border.  You'll be able to stop paying the subsidy for renewable energy products which Moredonboy talks about so lovingly (the gap between the cost of production of renewable and conventional energy is closing but subsidies are still required). 

It's really disturbing to hear people pissing away the whole future of their country for the most spurious, ridiculous reasons.  I overheard a woman in a pub at the weekend saying she was voting "yes" because she would get free childcare.  Maybe democracy is a bad thing...

I think it is highly likely you will be fast tracked into the EU....fishing quotas will see to that, but it will mean no UK opt outs and having to follow the rules on new states of... Euro, as Scotland potentially will have a foreign lender of last resort, and Schengen as that's a UK opt out.

[iffy]

Classic spurt before the polls. Typical of YouGov, too.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/av-referendum

[ExiledEric]

We may see soon enough Reg although I wonder whether the Belgian/Spanish situation may override that.  Wonder also about the impact on tourism - whether English people are likely to visit in their usual numbers.  Gonna be very, very messy for a very long time.

[Reg Smeeton]

We may see soon enough Reg although I wonder whether the Belgian/Spanish situation may override that.  Wonder also about the impact on tourism - whether English people are likely to visit in their usual numbers.  Gonna be very, very messy for a very long time.

It was interesting yesterday watching the Vuelta going up the iconic Lagos de Covadonga, how many Asturias separatists were out on the roadside....I think most people know about the Catalans and Basques, but it seems most of Spain's regions want to cede from Madrid.

I can't imagine many UK tourists will be put off Scotland, given the usual caveats which apply to foreign travel.