Tottenham

[Coca Fola]

Gaddafi must be feeling a bit smug right now.

[reeves4england]

Boris' first(?) written response...

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-mayor/article-23976762-boris-johnson-london-can---and-will---come-back-from-all-this.do

[Talk Talk]

Thanks for your views, genuinely interested to see what you have to say.

Cheers R4E. You are always worth discussing things with.

I'm not really sure principles are going to solve the problem, but I admit I (deliberately) asked a pretty huge question. It seems a bit idealistic/utopian to say what we need is for a common acceptance of moral values... Yes these people who are rioting are marginalised/ignored/'formed' by social and political processes which leave them in situations with few prospects... but at the same time these people are still relatively wealthy in relation to the majority world. It doesn't matter how well off our country becomes, the fact that some are better off will always cause frictions and resentment amongst those who feel they deserve more - even (or especially) when they don't!

I've gone down a bit of a random unstructured train of thought there, but basically my point is that no matter what we do I can't see a time where moral values (as characterised by non-agression) will ever be upheld across society

Oh it definitely won't be in my lifetime, perhaps in my children's. It is a multi-generational thing. It will certainly take a long time for attitudes to change, but they most certainly will. We cannot continue as a race to keep perpetuating violence and force, killing millions of people in pointless wars, the legalised theft of income and the scott-free immoral actions of the elites.

If you had forecast the end of slavery in the 18th century people would think you were crazy and that it would never happen. Likewise if you had proposed the emancipation of women then you would have had a similar reaction. Society can change and that has been proven. It takes about 100 years.

people are by default too proud, envious and selfish

You really think so? I disagree. The majority of people are not. I'm sure you aren't. I am not. How many people donated to Charlie Austin's child's charity? Sure, there is a criminal class who act badly but that is down to shit upbringing caused by...

Are morals not the cause and effect of what is happening?

Lack of them perhaps.

Morals?

Haven't seen any of those during these events.

...nail hit on the head. Morals or ethics if you will are the key. When they have been perverted in the population by the powers that be then it is time to address the root of the problem.

like i said i don't think you can blame their social upbringing for what they're doing, most of them are adults and therefore mature enough to make decisions for themselves rather than just joining in this mob mentality and seeing it as an opportunity to get free stuff.

Where else do you get your morals from apart from your parents and upbringing? Do you suddenly get wisdom when you become an adult?

Surely the opportunities they were denied as children though shaped them into the people they are now. But I wont say anymore, the tide is against me and I don't wanna be a self righteous knob who forces my views on other. Everyone's entitled to their view and what not

Exactly. And you are not a self righteous knob, you are entitled to your opinion the same as everybody else. If they don't like it or disagree that is their option.

[Barnard]

I'm not sure how much difference the extra police will make. The constant news coverage and the impression that the rioters had a free run at it last night will encourage even more on to the streets tonight, both in London and other places around the country (I really hope I'm wrong with this.).

What we really need is some good heavy rain.

[Ƭ̵̬̊: The Artist Formerly Known as CWIG]

The worst part is the rumours this is happening in Swindon right now, when it clearly fucking isn't.

[Ardiles]

What we really need is some good heavy rain.

So true.  None forecast, sadly, until Thursday morning.

[london_red]

At least one death now from the riots.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14462693

Hopefully the authorities can find a way to put a stop to it soon.

[Mister Lorenzo]

Surely a troll?

So you don't believe these people are formed by social factors - so you are purposing a looting gene? Interesting.

As for harsh punishments, America has a very brutal criminal system and yet % wise one of the worst crime rates in the world. Interesting. I may be a lefty limp wristed twat (or how ever you sum it up) but at least my knuckles dont drag on the floor. Sorry most people who have different opinions to me I'm quite polite to as there views are normally argued quite well. You just seem stupid.  But you are right water cannons and some form of force need to be used to stop them.

So I have a different opinion to you, that makes me a Troll does it? You're the stupid cunt who can't see that a lefty, limp wristed approach hasn't worked that well so far!!

Anyway,The Daily Mash sums it up pretty well...

Riots caused by society or lazy, thieving pricks, say experts
09-08-11
THE London riots are the inevitable consequence of a society that includes some aholes who like to steal things instead of working, experts claimed last night.

Sociologists said the devastation across the capital was the direct result of either social exclusion and government cutbacks or some young, inner-city pricks finding a flimsy excuse to set fire to Carpetright.

As the city's often neglected underclass of dicks, tts and fkers, let out a desperate cry of opportunist theft, Waterstones in Clapham was only spared after staff hurriedly removed the Stars of the Jeremy Kyle Show Pop-Up Book from the window.

Dr Tom Logan said: "I'm a sociologist, which means three things - I have an appalling education, I have very little money and most of the time I am unbelievably bored.

"And yet I have only a fairly small inclination to set fire to some shops while refreshing my tracksuit collection.

"You see, some people are just dicks, but sometimes even dicks like an excuse."

Rioter Martin Bishop said: "I'm not entirely sure who is to blame for me wanting to steal things and then set fire to the building where those things used to be.

"But it is nice to have the flimsy excuse. It makes me feel more mature."

Meanwhile, as former England cricket captain Alec Stewart began assembling a posse of vigilante test heroes, seismologists reported a sudden lurch to the right as people who own tagines found themselves calling for the immediate deployment of the Parachute Regiment and a couple of RAF Tornadoes.

Julian Cook, a planning consultant from Finsbury Park, said: "As long as it doesn't get too 'Bloody Sunday' I think it could teach them a valuable lesson about property rights and the rule of law."

But Dr Logan stressed that long after the fires had been extinguished debate would continue to rage over what turned these dicks into the fkers they are.

He added: "I suspect it'll be easier if we all just agree to blame Carpetright."

[Ironside]

Very good point and yes I rather stupidly over look that point. And again these kids are acting like twats, BUT be honest do you think that if you were born in an terrible area and raised in a poor family, do you think that you would be the person you are today. Not sayin you'd be a looter or rioter but you defiantly wouldn't be the person you are now. For example you'd be left supporting Tottenham and not the mighty town .

I feel i need to make this point a million times though, I will not be hugging a hoody. I've been a victim of them before and it was fucking horrible. But the kdis who are doing this and the kids who are attacking me weren't lucky enough to be brought up like me.

Apologist.

You're simply making excuses for these people. People have the ability make their own choices. They choose to become "gangsters" and drug dealers and theiving little cunts. Nobody forces them. They are also responsible for their own actions and should be able to face the consequences.

All this bollocks about the poor little cherubs actually being victims, is starting to grate a little now.

[Berniman]

The worst part is the rumours this is happening in Swindon right now, when it clearly fucking isn't.

A load of yoofs tried starting it in Manchester Road but the old bill nipped it in the bud.  The police are still saying that they have intelligence to suggest that people are going to try later today.

So there clearly is something in the offing.  Or is the policeman lying?  Maybe that is the problem.

 

[MichaelLandon]

Pretty sure bout 90% of the forum disagree with me, yes I happily engage in debates and discussions on opposing views. That's just healthy. But people like you (who i had guessed was a Daily Mail reader) are either trolling or stupid surely. I'll make this point for the millionth time. We are all victims of circumstance, I was lucky enough to be born in to a nice family in a good area. I have no desire to riot. If i was born in a rough area of North London I clearly wouldn't be the same as I am now. I may not be a rioter or looter but I wouldn't be me. If you get shit on all your like you will seize an opportunity to retaliate.

However, I was a cunt in my post, I disagree with you. In fact my views are most likely a polar opposite of yours. But I was just pissed of and had a bit of an unfair attack.

As it's been mentioned before though the cause doesn't really matter right now. That can be handled after. Right now it just need to be stopped.I honestly think that the extra 10,000 will help a huge amount.  

[MichaelLandon]

Apologist.

You're simply making excuses for these people. People have the ability make their own choices. They choose to become "gangsters" and drug dealers and theiving little cunts. Nobody forces them. They are also responsible for their own actions and should be able to face the consequences.

All this bollocks about the poor little cherubs actually being victims, is starting to grate a little now.

Again not victims, and yes they should be fucking convicted for what they have done (I don't mind the idea of those who are caught and prosecuted should be forced to spend 8 hours a day cleaning and fixing the damage they have caused as prison would just cost more in tax). But no child is born thinking yeeeea I wanna be a gangster and go to prison that'll be awesome, every child grows up wanting to play for town. However due to out circumstances and culture we are raised in and how we are treated by society we develop into adults. Yes adults can think for them selves but unwiring 18years of socialisation is no easy task. 

[Talk Talk]

I couldn't give a fuck about the cause of it for now, people just need to be stopped. Policeman with riot shields and batons are not going to stand a chance against a group of angry people lobbing stuff at them and setting fire to whatever they please.

What should the government do? I don't know. If I had the answers to that then I would be fit to run the country. Look, they are useless cunts - it's not what they should do, it is what they will do. If you want a clue then look around the world or to history to see what is likely. Greece in the last year for example. Those in power do not give it up lightly and will increase the use of force (which is what they are good at) against the violence. I would expect that they will use the opportunity to introduce more draconian legislation. Expect curfews? If the violence continues past an increasingly armed police force with water cannons and tear gas they might get the armed forces out, although they have shot themselves in the foot (no pun intended) with that one as they have trimmed them down to paper thin. If they do, would a British soldier be prepared to shoot a civilian on the streets of England? And if they did then all hell really would break loose.

Other 'emergency' control measures might be aimed at communications and perhaps restrictions on social networking sites, email and mobile phones. Who knows?

Or take a look at recent times in Syria, Egypt, Libya etc.

The USA will be next.

[Ironside]

Again not victims, and yes they should be fucking convicted for what they have done (I don't mind the idea of those who are caught and prosecuted should be forced to spend 8 hours a day cleaning and fixing the damage they have caused as prison would just cost more in tax). But no child is born thinking yeeeea I wanna be a gangster and go to prison that'll be awesome, every child grows up wanting to play for town. However due to out circumstances and culture we are raised in and how we are treated by society we develop into adults. Yes adults can think for them selves but unwiring 18years of socialisation is no easy task.  

So you blame the environments that these people are bought up in being cause of these lawlessness?

How so many people from similar, of not worse environments have gone on to "better" themselves, to get out of the whole "ghetto" mindset and gone on to have productive, fulfilling and positive lives?

This whole environment arguement is a red herring.

[Div]

These girls sound well 'ard

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424