Question and debate with Ironside

[Ironside]

Why do you think that saying something is an OPINION gives it a greater weight as an argument?

It simply means that unless you want to get into the realms of vetting peoples thoughts, which I think you'll agree is a severe infringement on anyones civil liberties, it's just that, an opinion. You can agree or disagree but ultimately, it's just an opinion.

[Ironside]

SECTION 2: MEMBERSHIP

       2) The indigenous British ethnic groups deriving from the class of ‘Indigenous Caucasian’ consist of members of: i) The Anglo-Saxon Folk Community; ii) The Celtic Scottish Folk Community; iii) The Scots-Northern Irish Folk Community; iv) The Celtic Welsh Folk Community; v) The Celtic Irish Folk Community; vi) The Celtic Cornish Folk Community; vii) The Anglo-Saxon-Celtic Folk Community; viii) The Celtic-Norse Folk Community; ix) The Anglo-Saxon-Norse Folk Community; x) The Anglo-Saxon-Indigenous European Folk Community; xi) Members of these ethnic groups who reside either within or outside Europe but ethnically derive from them.

I wasn't going to contribute anything to this thread as its just giving a raciest a platform I'm not really interested in providing but I have to say that quote is THE funniest thing I've read this week.

That's got to be THE most long winded way to say "white people" that I've ever seen. What a shame most of the actual definitions would make the average anthropologist or ethnologist piss themselves laughing. "The Celtic Norse folk community" for fuck sake!

Whilst I'm here, interesting that Miss Marple's justification for the racial membership restriction is absolutely fucking identical to that used on the BNP's website, which lists a few dozen BEM organisations and pressure groups, and compares itself to them.

Obviously it skips lightly over the fact that none of those organisations are political parties seeking to elect representatives into local and national seats of government and clearly assumes that it's readership is too stupid to make that distinction for itself. I'm sure the point wasn't lost on you lot though.

The rest of the argument is a bit pointless. The BNP man refuses to defend the most controversial BNP policies, and even talks about "a good multiracial society", the very thing that the party was established to oppose, so I'm not really sure what the purpose of the debate is. I can see the point of taking apart the policies of a political party that has the potential to be a really unpleasant influence on British politics, but I'm not really that interested in just arguing the toss with some sad, lonely, middle-aged racist.

The only thing I can say is that if you don't support the idea of the repatriation of all non-white people living in the UK perhaps it's not a good idea to vote for a party that has that as one of its major policies. (Yes it is still on the website under immigration policy, and Griffin has refused to rule out compulsory repatriation on about half a dozen occasions in the last few years). If you don't want to be described as a nazi then don't join a party who's entire leadership is drawn from people with long histories of involvement in British fascism, and was founded by a bloke who was the deputy leader of Spearhead, a fascist "private army" modelled on the brownshirts.

If you're only going to run away from arguments with the excuse that you don't necessarily agree with party policy then don't mention the shitbags on here again or post any more  links to their fucking website eh?

If you can manage that, I'll accept that you're not an active member of a fascist party, I'll stop making all references to them, stop asking you to justify the more mental master race delusions of that movement and start treating your posts like I do those of the other small minded racists that post on here; i.e. argue the toss when I can be arsed or just call you a racist twat when I can't.

That sound fair enough?

Oi, cunt chops, fuck off, you've already said you don't want to fucking "debate" anything with people like me so you're opinion is not welcome here.

I haven't read your post and nor will I.

[Talk Talk]

Ironside, would I be right in saying that you are in fact a traditional right wing conservative (with a small c) - as in the 1960's version - and that with the drift to the centre/left of today's Conservative party you have had no alternative but to tend towards the BNP, even though they may be far right?

I can understand that and I think that is what has pushed a lot of people in their direction. However, I think the chasm between the 60's Conservative party and the BNP is a huge one.

[chalkies_shorts]

Sorry, three last questions then I'll leave you alone. So, are these 2 single issues ( immigration , EU ) more important than membership of any political party? Why not UKIP? Those 2 I asked previously. The majority of your friends / drinknig buddies, do they hold similar views.
I remember the Israel thread.
I realise I'm doing all the asking here so I'm quite happy to answer any of your questions as well.

[flammableBen]

But why point out it's an opinion? of course it is, unless someones on a wind up then it goes without saying. Not all opinions are equally valid though, and they're in no way immune to being questioned, shouted down or explained point by point why they're bollocks. So what is the OPINION thing for?

It might be my OPINION that apples are made of cheese, but if that's the case then my OPINION is bollocks in comparison to somebody who knows about biochemistry and the difference in molecular structure of the two substances.

[Arriba]

i think how people dfine the words racist or racism is mile apart in alot of cases

[Ironside]

Sorry, three last questions then I'll leave you alone. So, are these 2 single issues ( immigration , EU ) more important than membership of any political party? Why not UKIP? Those 2 I asked previously. The majority of your friends / drinknig buddies, do they hold similar views.
I remember the Israel thread.
I realise I'm doing all the asking here so I'm quite happy to answer any of your questions as well.

Sorry Chalkie, UKIP is a dead duck. They've achieved nothing but seem to be part of the EU gravy train.  I don't even know what they stand for these days.

Politics should be about policy and the implementation of that policy. People will follow the policies that they agree with.

I've bumped into random foreigners (I live in London) and got chatting to them as do when your down the boozer and THEY have said TO ME that they think this country is fucked and then they've proceeded to tell me why.  Low and behold, they have the same opinions as me.  I guess they're just fucking racists.

The point of the thread has been to dispell the myths perpetuated by the righteous one the soon to be cadaver and left wing thug. Ask away.

[Ironside]

But why point out it's an opinion? of course it is, unless someones on a wind up then it goes without saying. Not all opinions are equally valid though, and they're in no way immune to being questioned, shouted down or explained point by point why they're bollocks. So what is the OPINION thing for?

It might be my OPINION that apples are made of cheese, but if that's the case then my OPINION is bollocks in comparison to somebody who knows about biochemistry and the difference in molecular structure of the two substances.

Because having a fucking opinion is not a fucking crime you fucking dossing, timewasting cunt.

[Talk Talk]

It might be my OPINION that apples are made of cheese, but if that's the case then my OPINION is bollocks in comparison to somebody who knows about biochemistry and the difference in molecular structure of the two substances.

I'm not sure that argument is applicable here Ben.

Opinions are such things like 'I prefer apples to cheese'. 'Apples are made of cheese' is clearly inaccurate. Facts are facts and the two are exclusive.

Politics is very much about opinions. If it was factual then we wouldn't need political parties, MPs or a Government (I'm all for that!)

[flammableBen]

I'm not sure that argument is applicable here Ben.

Opinions are such things like 'I prefer apples to cheese'. 'Apples are made of cheese' is clearly inaccurate. Facts are facts and the two are exclusive.

Politics is very much about opinions. If it was factual then we wouldn't need political parties, MPs or a Government (I'm all for that!)

But why do you need to point out it's an opinion? What fucking else is it going to be?

The whole opinion thing is a pet hate, people seem to love wheeling it out when people disagree with them. There's no law that people can't question your opinion, or even plain state out why they think it's wrong.

[chalkies_shorts]

Sorry Chalkie, UKIP is a dead duck. They've achieved nothing but seem to be part of the EU gravy train.  I don't even know what they stand for these days.

Politics should be about policy and the implementation of that policy. People will follow the policies that they agree with.

I've bumped into random foreigners (I live in London) and got chatting to them as do when your down the boozer and THEY have said TO ME that they think this country is fucked and then they've proceeded to tell me why.  Low and behold, they have the same opinions as me.  I guess they're just fucking racists.

The point of the thread has been to dispell the myths perpetuated by the righteous one the soon to be cadaver and left wing thug. Ask away.

Ironside - you've answered the UKIP one and kind of answered the other 2 but in a very general way. Can I pin you down to specific answers?

[Ironside]

But why do you need to point out it's an opinion? What fucking else is it going to be?

The whole opinion thing is a pet hate, people seem to love wheeling it out when people disagree with them. There's no law that people can't question your opinion, or even plain state out why they think it's wrong.

Okay dosser, your right. David Irvine has a fucking opinion. 99% of people think he's fucking wrong, that's their fucking opinion. Challeng it, question it, don't throw the fucking cunt in prison for for it.

Does it make sense or do you need to get off your lazy fat arse and enter the real fucking world?

[Lumps]

Lumpy? was that you you?

scum.

I wish - haven't seen 25 in a fucking while.

You said something about being prepared to take it if you dish it out? Well:

A number of prominent members of the BNP have been reported as:
having been convicted of a wide range of offences, including assault, inciting racial hatred, and offences under the Explosives Act (see Tony Lecomber); or  having had previous connections with Ulster loyalist paramilitary organisations, extremist or neo-Nazi groups, or with football violence.

The BNP dismisses these instances as past misdemeanours, however, there are present day criminal charges brought against BNP members, including for assault, racism, and other activities.

While they claim any individuals involved with criminality would be immediately expelled from the BNP, Brian Turner, a Burnley local authority BNP councillor found guilty of attacking his wife and a police officer – has recently been told he will keep his job. Turner was arrested on February 5, 2005 at Cuthbert Street in Burnley, after reports of a domestic violence incident at a house in St Cuthbert Street, Burnley. The court was told at a previous hearing how Turner, who has eleven previous convictions, was aggressive towards the police officer who tried to restrain him, and kicked him in the leg. The party has said it is supporting him and his place on Burnley Borough Council, while opposition councillors repeatedly called for his resignation.

The BNP emphasises that over 20% of the working population has some criminal record or another: however the percentage of elected politicians with criminal records belonging to mainstream political parties, is much lower and many of the offences committed by the BNP are substantially more serious than the offences typically committed by the general population of minor criminals, and that the people named are "leading members" of the BNP.

Tony Lecomber, is a convicted bomber and racist attacker, almost killing a man on the London Underground. He was never expelled from the party, and is now the BNP's national development officer.

Jason Douglas took 10% of the poll on the sprawling Hainault estate in the London Borough of Redbridge on a "law and order" platform, despite the revelation during the campaign that he has football hooligan convictions going back fourteen years.

The BNP argues that it does not and cannot completely vet every single member and that it is impossible to know the proportion of members with a criminal conviction in any party.

Joe Owens, a BNP candidate in Merseyside in 2004, was a close associate of Nick Griffin and acted as his personal bodyguard. Owens was convicted of sending razor-blades to Jewish people in the post during the 1980s, and also had a well-established history of participating in non-political gangland violence in Liverpool over the past three decades, resulting in several convictions. More recently he and BNP youth leader Tony Wentworth were convicted of assaulting several demonstrators at an anti-BNP event in 2003.  Owens quit the party in 2004 after a dispute with Nick Griffin, though Wentworth remains a member, and the leader of the BNP youth movement.

BNP member Simon Sheppard was sentenced to nine months imprisonment at Hull Crown Court on Wednesday 14 June 2000 for the crime of "Publishing or Distributing racially inflammatory material." Sheppard produced and still produces a website entitled "Heretical Press" which dwells at length on his hatred of both Jews and women. Whilst misogyny is the prevalent theme of his website, it was the Holocaust Denial of the site which led to his prosecution. The page remains in existence, containing gloating pictures of Jews in death camps with mocking captions. Sheppard was expelled from the party following his prosecution. He was still a party member however when he helped set up the Redwatch website.

In December, 2004, police arrested Griffin after he was secretly filmed calling Islam "a wicked, vicious faith". In 2005, he was charged with two further charges of incitement to racial hatred, subsequent to secret filming of BNP meetings.

The BNP has throughout its short and bitter history glorified racist attacks. In 1991, the BNP newspaper gloated after several BNP supporters stabbed an African immigrant at London Bridge station. The victim had his “kidney surgically removed”, the paper boasted. In the same year, the BNP leadership whipped up a racist riot in Bermondsey, London, and led an attack on anti-racist protestors against the BNP headquarters in Welling. Thirteen people needed hospital treatment.
In recent times, a member of the BNP, Mark Collett, has been implicated in involvement with the Redwatch website, run by self-identified neo-Nazis linked to Combat eighteen and the National Front, (though Simon Sheppard (see above) was instrumental in setting up the site while still a BNP member.) Redwatch prints the addresses and pictures of left-wing activists and invites its readers to make them "pay for their crimes". Many people featured on the site have been threatened or attacked. One such individual was Liverpool TUC organiser Alec McFadden, who received death threats shortly after his details appeared onsite. At precisely the same time Joe Owens, an offical Merseyside BNP candidate with several convictions for violent offences (see above) began sending him e-mails gloating that he had photographic details of his house, car, and family. The BNP leadership, aware of the damage caused by association of the party with Redwatch, proscribes use of the website by BNP members. Despite this, Collett was seen advocating use of the site in the BBC's The Secret Agent documentary. He remains a BNP member.

In September 2003 the party's annual "Red, White and Blue" social event was marred with violence when recently elected BNP Burnley councillor Luke Smith smashed a bottle in the face of fellow party member Martin Reynolds. Reynolds had to be admitted to casualty and required several stitches. Smith was forced to resign as a councillor.

In August 2005, Ben Boylen, a member of the BNP, was arrested at Dover in Kent for smuggling an Albanian woman and her two children into England. He is thought to have told fellow BNP members that he was arrested for drug smuggling.

BNP member Stuart Kerr was sentenced to twelve years' imprisonment for firebombing an Asian shop in Chichester, Sussex.

Other organisers and candidates for the party with criminal records include Kevin Scott, BNP North-Eastern organiser (assault and threatening behaviour), Warren Bennett, BNP chief steward (football hooliganism), Colin Smith, BNP south-east London organiser (17 convictions for burglary, theft, stealing cars, possession of drugs and assaulting a police officer), and Paul Bennett, BNP council candidate for Barnsley (assaulting a pensioner). All are still currently active in the party.

Your lot seem to dish it out alright, but fuck me you moan when someone gives it back don't you?

[Ironside]

Be more specific with your questions please Chalkie. 1), 2) etc.
Ta.

[Ironside]

I wish - haven't seen 25 in a fucking while.

You said something about being prepared to take it if you dish it out? Well:

A number of prominent members of the BNP have been reported as:
having been convicted of a wide range of offences, including assault, inciting racial hatred, and offences under the Explosives Act (see Tony Lecomber); or  having had previous connections with Ulster loyalist paramilitary organisations, extremist or neo-Nazi groups, or with football violence.

The BNP dismisses these instances as past misdemeanours, however, there are present day criminal charges brought against BNP members, including for assault, racism, and other activities.

While they claim any individuals involved with criminality would be immediately expelled from the BNP, Brian Turner, a Burnley local authority BNP councillor found guilty of attacking his wife and a police officer – has recently been told he will keep his job. Turner was arrested on February 5, 2005 at Cuthbert Street in Burnley, after reports of a domestic violence incident at a house in St Cuthbert Street, Burnley. The court was told at a previous hearing how Turner, who has eleven previous convictions, was aggressive towards the police officer who tried to restrain him, and kicked him in the leg. The party has said it is supporting him and his place on Burnley Borough Council, while opposition councillors repeatedly called for his resignation.

The BNP emphasises that over 20% of the working population has some criminal record or another: however the percentage of elected politicians with criminal records belonging to mainstream political parties, is much lower and many of the offences committed by the BNP are substantially more serious than the offences typically committed by the general population of minor criminals, and that the people named are "leading members" of the BNP.

Tony Lecomber, is a convicted bomber and racist attacker, almost killing a man on the London Underground. He was never expelled from the party, and is now the BNP's national development officer.

Jason Douglas took 10% of the poll on the sprawling Hainault estate in the London Borough of Redbridge on a "law and order" platform, despite the revelation during the campaign that he has football hooligan convictions going back fourteen years.

The BNP argues that it does not and cannot completely vet every single member and that it is impossible to know the proportion of members with a criminal conviction in any party.

Joe Owens, a BNP candidate in Merseyside in 2004, was a close associate of Nick Griffin and acted as his personal bodyguard. Owens was convicted of sending razor-blades to Jewish people in the post during the 1980s, and also had a well-established history of participating in non-political gangland violence in Liverpool over the past three decades, resulting in several convictions. More recently he and BNP youth leader Tony Wentworth were convicted of assaulting several demonstrators at an anti-BNP event in 2003.  Owens quit the party in 2004 after a dispute with Nick Griffin, though Wentworth remains a member, and the leader of the BNP youth movement.

BNP member Simon Sheppard was sentenced to nine months imprisonment at Hull Crown Court on Wednesday 14 June 2000 for the crime of "Publishing or Distributing racially inflammatory material." Sheppard produced and still produces a website entitled "Heretical Press" which dwells at length on his hatred of both Jews and women. Whilst misogyny is the prevalent theme of his website, it was the Holocaust Denial of the site which led to his prosecution. The page remains in existence, containing gloating pictures of Jews in death camps with mocking captions. Sheppard was expelled from the party following his prosecution. He was still a party member however when he helped set up the Redwatch website.

In December, 2004, police arrested Griffin after he was secretly filmed calling Islam "a wicked, vicious faith". In 2005, he was charged with two further charges of incitement to racial hatred, subsequent to secret filming of BNP meetings.

The BNP has throughout its short and bitter history glorified racist attacks. In 1991, the BNP newspaper gloated after several BNP supporters stabbed an African immigrant at London Bridge station. The victim had his “kidney surgically removed”, the paper boasted. In the same year, the BNP leadership whipped up a racist riot in Bermondsey, London, and led an attack on anti-racist protestors against the BNP headquarters in Welling. Thirteen people needed hospital treatment.
In recent times, a member of the BNP, Mark Collett, has been implicated in involvement with the Redwatch website, run by self-identified neo-Nazis linked to Combat eighteen and the National Front, (though Simon Sheppard (see above) was instrumental in setting up the site while still a BNP member.) Redwatch prints the addresses and pictures of left-wing activists and invites its readers to make them "pay for their crimes". Many people featured on the site have been threatened or attacked. One such individual was Liverpool TUC organiser Alec McFadden, who received death threats shortly after his details appeared onsite. At precisely the same time Joe Owens, an offical Merseyside BNP candidate with several convictions for violent offences (see above) began sending him e-mails gloating that he had photographic details of his house, car, and family. The BNP leadership, aware of the damage caused by association of the party with Redwatch, proscribes use of the website by BNP members. Despite this, Collett was seen advocating use of the site in the BBC's The Secret Agent documentary. He remains a BNP member.

In September 2003 the party's annual "Red, White and Blue" social event was marred with violence when recently elected BNP Burnley councillor Luke Smith smashed a bottle in the face of fellow party member Martin Reynolds. Reynolds had to be admitted to casualty and required several stitches. Smith was forced to resign as a councillor.

In August 2005, Ben Boylen, a member of the BNP, was arrested at Dover in Kent for smuggling an Albanian woman and her two children into England. He is thought to have told fellow BNP members that he was arrested for drug smuggling.

BNP member Stuart Kerr was sentenced to twelve years' imprisonment for firebombing an Asian shop in Chichester, Sussex.

Other organisers and candidates for the party with criminal records include Kevin Scott, BNP North-Eastern organiser (assault and threatening behaviour), Warren Bennett, BNP chief steward (football hooliganism), Colin Smith, BNP south-east London organiser (17 convictions for burglary, theft, stealing cars, possession of drugs and assaulting a police officer), and Paul Bennett, BNP council candidate for Barnsley (assaulting a pensioner). All are still currently active in the party.

Your lot seem to dish it out alright, but fuck me you moan when someone gives it back don't you?

So you admit that your no better than those you condemn that Lumpy?

Edit: And stop copy/paste bullshit from other websites. This is about individuals opinions.