Religion.

[Arriba]

there is concrete evidence of evolution,this is growing by the day.religion is a faith-belief that cannot, and will never be proven.
i'm sure there was a jewish rebel(jesus),who had support against the roman empire.but alot more has been made of it than i think happend.some of the stories from the bible are so ott they are laugable.
christians change the way they explain things as time goes by,as more evidence is found that blows the bible out of the water. they keep changing views to justify their deluded beliefs.the different churces dont all even see the bible in the same way as each other.

teaching god and the bible as a fact to kids from the age of 4 in primary schools is a disgrace!

To suggest its a disgrace is very short sighted christianity has always been this countrys national religion and the bible has some great stories which most kids love and it can also teach them valuable lessons.  I am sure they will be more than capable of making a choice themselves as they get older on whether they choose to believe or not.

As I said earlier christianity also has factual evidence to back it up and courses such as the Alpha course will give you additional information on this.  This is scientific evidence which further strengthens the case in religions favour.

I wont argue that christians have changed with time as have people as life was very different back then compared to how it is now.

I dont consider my beliefs to be deluded nor do I see all this evidence blowing the bible out the water.  I do not disagree too much either that various denominations disagree on things but I don't see how that should cloud your own judgement or beliefs.

I appreciate your opinion but as I said although its not easy for me to explain my faith I am 100% sure in my belief that there is a God and an after life.

i have no objection to the bible and its stories being taught to children in schools at all.and i agree about its good morals etc.
but i dont like it being taught as fact in primary schools as it currently is.
other religions are not taught as fact in british mainstream schools. why should christianity?

[BANGKOK RED]

For me, if the (Any) Church was to concede somewhat and say, for example:

"Yes evolution is Fact, although God created all life on Earth and with it created Evolution"

Then there is a road to concilliation (Sp?) there. But to dismiss Evolution all together loses credibility.

After all, the Bible is over 2,000 years old and so it is to be expected that their have been mis-interpretations/chinede-whispers and even exaggerations along the way.

[flammableBen]

there is concrete evidence of evolution,this is growing by the day.religion is a faith-belief that cannot, and will never be proven.
i'm sure there was a jewish rebel(jesus),who had support against the roman empire.but alot more has been made of it than i think happend.some of the stories from the bible are so ott they are laugable.
christians change the way they explain things as time goes by,as more evidence is found that blows the bible out of the water. they keep changing views to justify their deluded beliefs.the different churces dont all even see the bible in the same way as each other.

teaching god and the bible as a fact to kids from the age of 4 in primary schools is a disgrace!

To suggest its a disgrace is very short sighted christianity has always been this countrys national religion and the bible has some great stories which most kids love and it can also teach them valuable lessons.  I am sure they will be more than capable of making a choice themselves as they get older on whether they choose to believe or not.

As I said earlier christianity also has factual evidence to back it up and courses such as the Alpha course will give you additional information on this.  This is scientific evidence which further strengthens the case in religions favour.

I wont argue that christians have changed with time as have people as life was very different back then compared to how it is now.

I dont consider my beliefs to be deluded nor do I see all this evidence blowing the bible out the water.  I do not disagree too much either that various denominations disagree on things but I don't see how that should cloud your own judgement or beliefs.

I appreciate your opinion but as I said although its not easy for me to explain my faith I am 100% sure in my belief that there is a God and an after life.

Disgrace is probably a bit strong. But I strongly believe that religious beliefs are something that should be imparted at home not through the state. Making kids in primary schools sing hyms and say prayers in assembly might not seem like a big deal, but in a multicultural society you're effectively indoctrinating children with beliefs which aren't held by a vast percentage of the population.

Religion should be completely separated from the state. Especially in education. The idea that the education a child receives should reflect the religious beliefs of the parents to the extent that you have whole different schools set up for Catholics/Anglicans/Jews/Muslims just seems mental to me. The idea of the knowledge that's imparted is altered by religious ideals implies religious censorship. Every child should have the right to a full education, whatever the beliefs of their parents.

On the other hand I think that education about religion should be greatly improved, and put more into context of history and politics. My secondary school wasn't at all religious (Commonweal), but my R.E. lesson's still seemed to have a hangover of morality about them, and learning facts like the 5 pillars of Islam, the Sikh's last guru is a book, etc. Is pretty meaningless out of any context.

[flammableBen]

I've just been reading up on that Alpha Course. It looks sketchy to me. The whole "exploration" thing is an interesting word to use when it's clearly a conversion tool. Other things like "beginning with a meal and refreshment", seem set up so you owe them something from the start. It also seems to target people who aren't happy with life, in fact the advert on the front page of their website seems to be suggesting to you that you're not happy with life.

The whole thing seems very similar to techniques that cults and conmen use.

I'm semi-curious to go along, although I don't think it would be very constructive.

[BANGKOK RED]

Religion should be completely separated from the state. Especially in education.

On the other hand I think that education about religion should be greatly improved, and put more into context of history and politics.

Good shout Ben.

I think that if the state was to educate the kids properly then many of the current problems may not exist, (This also stands for ALL countries). I went to Churchfields and R.E. was a G.C.S.E. option and I didn't take it because I thought that it was for religious types only. If it was however portrayed more as simply part of our world heritage then it could become a more interesting option.

I refuse to send my Daughter to any of the many Christian/Catholic international schools out here for obvious reasons. Instead we send her to a Private Thai school.

It is not Buddhist by design, although perhaps Buddhist by default but that is fine because Buddhism is not rammed down their throats every day. Buddhism revolves more around moral values than anything else really.

I have met and spoken with many a Buddhist monk whilst here, and I have found that not only do they tolerate other religions but they also embrace, even encourage them, they also embrace science in that a higher power created the world/universe, and science is a part of that creation.

They also understand or accept that a Bhuddist could also have beleif in another faith, the ideaolgy behind it is basically that there is a higher power, and just because to other faiths their god may be a different kind of god, whose to say that it is not the same god? Or that another god cannot exist along-side their own god*, basically they are open to all possibilities regarding religion and science whilst still beleiving in Bhuddha.


*Buddha is not so much considred a god, more of a man and as such their is no "Bible" to speak of, although they generally abide by Buddha's teachings which again, are simply moral values.

I have never ever been told by a Bhuddist "Don't do that, because it is Un-Bhuddist", rather they would say "Don't do that, because it is just wrong"

Of course it is possible to piss of a Bhuddist with regards to their Faith, but  it would take deliberate intent to do so.

I don't beleive in Bhuddism as a religion as I do not beleive in the afterlife/re-incarnation, but I certainly beleive in Bhuddism as a way of life above and beyond any other religion that I have encountered.

[Simon Pieman]

I think the common ground with most religions are that they are intended to guide those that follow it to a better life before the afterlife, whatever/wherever that may be (and to a better afterlife?).

I think the stories in religious texts, the more fanciful ones that is, may be complete myth. But by believing or gaining something from those stories the people who follow the religion are able to get guidance in order to make them a better person for it.

I don't feel inclined to follow a religion, I believe there are better ways for myself to seek guidance if I felt I wanted (to do) it. That's why I don't believe in a God, Gods or a spiritual Nirvana or Heaven - I just don't think that's the best way for me to go about my business. Besides, even though evolution is a tidy theory it's not the reason I don't conform to a religion, even though I do believe in evolution. If someone managed to disprove evolution I still wouldn't believe in a higher being and I suspect the majority of atheists still would not. Basically I am trying to say that evolution probably isn't the reason most people are atheist, so I think it's a false argument to analyse the Genesis and compare it to evolution to try and prove their atheism.

Just because religion isn't for me I don't think it's fair to go out of my way to pick holes in it to prove a point. That's getting halfway to the annoying levels of a Jehovah's Witness ringing your doorbell on a Saturday morning when you're tired and hungover.

[BANGKOK RED]

Sorry if I am dragging this thread out a bit, but the subject really does interest me.

And lets take the flak away from the Christians a bit as my intital religion thread seems to have turned into an anti-Christianity thread. If only because the Christians have at least tried to answer the questions asked about their faith.

So lets talk about scientology!.  Does it even deserve recognition as a religion? OK Tom Cruise, Will Smith and others may have found contentment in their new faith but Christianity/Catholisism/Muslim ect. have some substance behind them.

Personally I think that it should be banned for being the scam that it blatantly is, in many countries it is not recognised as a religion and in some I think that it is banned. But regardless of how crap it is, does anybody have a right to deny them of their "Faith", despite the fact the scientology is basically a criminal organisation.

One could also include the "Church of the latter day saints" (Mormons), the "Evangalistic Church" and without doubt other as well.

[stfctownenda]

I've just been reading up on that Alpha Course. It looks sketchy to me. The whole "exploration" thing is an interesting word to use when it's clearly a conversion tool. Other things like "beginning with a meal and refreshment", seem set up so you owe them something from the start. It also seems to target people who aren't happy with life, in fact the advert on the front page of their website seems to be suggesting to you that you're not happy with life.

The whole thing seems very similar to techniques that cults and conmen use.

I'm semi-curious to go along, although I don't think it would be very constructive.

Alot of sceptics / synics have found this course extremely interesting and actually found it not to be the "brainwash" they expected.  There is no pressure on individuals at any point and is meant more as a spiritual journey, it does convert people no doubt but also some people find its not for them again it's dependent on individuals.

Exploration means simply that exploring different aspects of life, bible and experiences there is no pressure in cult like fashion.  I think the meal and refreshment is just a nice way to get to know people at the start its certainly nothing glamorous and you don't feel like you owe people anything.

People who are unhappy in life often need an outreach and the church can provide good support to people like this.  People who are happy in life tend to be that happy and don't feel the need to change anything or start anything new as they have all they need so its natural to target people more unhappy.  

When people have little they hold out more hope thats why you see numbers of christians rising in African countires and such because they don't have much they clutch to faith to improve there situations / fortunes / lifes.  In the western world we have so much we don't have to worry as much so thats why numbers have fallen, personally I don't think there is a right or wrong here everyone has an opinion and chooses what they want to believe, I respect that.

[Reg Smeeton]

there is concrete evidence of evolution,this is growing by the day.religion is a faith-belief that cannot, and will never be proven.
i'm sure there was a jewish rebel(jesus),who had support against the roman empire.but alot more has been made of it than i think happend.some of the stories from the bible are so ott they are laugable.
christians change the way they explain things as time goes by,as more evidence is found that blows the bible out of the water. they keep changing views to justify their deluded beliefs.the different churces dont all even see the bible in the same way as each other.

teaching god and the bible as a fact to kids from the age of 4 in primary schools is a disgrace!

To suggest its a disgrace is very short sighted christianity has always been this countrys national religion and the bible has some great stories which most kids love and it can also teach them valuable lessons.  I am sure they will be more than capable of making a choice themselves as they get older on whether they choose to believe or not.

 Just not true....Christianity has been a major religoion for perhaps the last 1400 years in this country.  If you consider somewhere like Avebury to be well over 5000 years old, then for most of history we've been something other than a Christian country.

  Further, although the link between church and state is implied in the constitution.....it is now anomalous to consider the UK a Christian country. A situation which will doubtless change....see Archbishop of Canterbury's thoughts on Sharia Law.

[axs]

paganism and druidry have been around a lot longer.

[reeves4england]

there is concrete evidence of evolution,this is growing by the day.religion is a faith-belief that cannot, and will never be proven.
i'm sure there was a jewish rebel(jesus),who had support against the roman empire.but alot more has been made of it than i think happend.some of the stories from the bible are so ott they are laugable.
christians change the way they explain things as time goes by,as more evidence is found that blows the bible out of the water. they keep changing views to justify their deluded beliefs.the different churces dont all even see the bible in the same way as each other.

teaching god and the bible as a fact to kids from the age of 4 in primary schools is a disgrace!

To suggest its a disgrace is very short sighted christianity has always been this countrys national religion and the bible has some great stories which most kids love and it can also teach them valuable lessons.  I am sure they will be more than capable of making a choice themselves as they get older on whether they choose to believe or not.

 Just not true....Christianity has been a major religoion for perhaps the last 1400 years in this country.  If you consider somewhere like Avebury to be well over 5000 years old, then for most of history we've been something other than a Christian country.

  Further, although the link between church and state is implied in the constitution.....it is now anomalous to consider the UK a Christian country. A situation which will doubtless change....see Archbishop of Canterbury's thoughts on Sharia Law.

You raise a fair point there Reg, we're not really a Christian country. And to say we've always been one is ridiculous - there was no such thing as Christianity until 2000 years ago.

Scientology baffles me completely. I don't know much about what they believe or do but the fact it is newly created, requires wealth etc makes it all seem a bit of a farce to me. I can't say much else wrong with it as that is the extent of my knowledge!

[BANGKOK RED]

Scientology baffles me completely. I don't know much about what they believe or do but the fact it is newly created, requires wealth etc makes it all seem a bit of a farce to me. I can't say much else wrong with it as that is the extent of my knowledge!

Watch the South Park episode on Scientology, and the one on the Mormon faith (As Ben has mentioned previously in this thread).

South Park may be a Satirical cartoon but both episodes are factual, and after watching it R4e you will find those faith's both comical and possibly insulting towards a "legitimate" faith such as your own.

I am sure that FB would be able to tell you which eipsodes they are. You should watch them, really you should watch them.

You should also know that either episode does not blaspheme (Sp?) Christianity whatsoever.

I particularly like the end of the Scientology episode when Kenny? (The producers) blatantly challenges the scientologists to sue him (Them).

[Reg Smeeton]

Many moons ago I had a bird who became a  Scientologist....she turned to it after the messy break up of our relationship.  It struck me as she was being exploited for her emotional vulnerability....but I wasn't about to enquire too closely.

[BANGKOK RED]

It struck me as she was being exploited for her emotional vulnerability....

A form of exploitation which should be illegal if it is not alraeady.

but I wasn't about to enquire too closely.

That's our Reg.  

[reeves4england]

Scientology baffles me completely. I don't know much about what they believe or do but the fact it is newly created, requires wealth etc makes it all seem a bit of a farce to me. I can't say much else wrong with it as that is the extent of my knowledge!

Watch the South Park episode on Scientology, and the one on the Mormon faith (As Ben has mentioned previously in this thread).

South Park may be a Satirical cartoon but both episodes are factual, and after watching it R4e you will find those faith's both comical and possibly insulting towards a "legitimate" faith such as your own.

I am sure that FB would be able to tell you which eipsodes they are. You should watch them, really you should watch them.

You should also know that either episode does not blaspheme (Sp?) Christianity whatsoever.

I particularly like the end of the Scientology episode when Kenny? (The producers) blatantly challenges the scientologists to sue him (Them).

Might do that - haven't seen any South Park for aaaaaaages