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Swindon Town FC => Other Football Stuff => Topic started by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 10:35:12



Title: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 10:35:12
Will COVID take its toll on some clubs and, if so, is it a bad thing?

Forget about whether it may be STFC and your emotional attachment but is the only way to have a sustainable pyramid is to have a smaller pyramid?


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 10:52:52
Are people from folded clubs going to financially support a different club?

IE Swindon goes bust, now we're all Oxford?


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 10:59:01
Why would a smaller pyramid be more sustainable? That's why we have divisions.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Jimmy Quinn on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 11:00:47
You could have leagues to cut down on travelling expenses


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 11:07:35
Why would a smaller pyramid be more sustainable? That's why we have divisions.
Whatever money that is sloshing around would be split with fewer clubs.

Canít see fans switching allegiances - theyíll become plastic TV fans or not bother any more.

This is the end game for many. Hope itís not us.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Jimmy Quinn on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 11:09:12
I'm all for the Thames Valley Royals as long as that dosen't include STFC😁


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Boeta on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 11:27:17
The pyramid goes all the way from Liverpool down to Dog and Duck FC. The whole of Saturday football in England is within it. How do you propose making it smaller?

If 10 clubs go bust, 10 will move up the pyramid, and original 10 will have Phoenix clubs that enter lower down the pyramid.

We donít need less clubs, we need more that have good strategic management/long-term thinking


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 11:36:54
The pyramid has been too top heavy for years, chop some big clubs and share the wealth (and plastic fans)


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 11:39:44
The pyramid goes all the way from Liverpool down to Dog and Duck FC. The whole of Saturday football in England is within it. How do you propose making it smaller?

If 10 clubs go bust, 10 will move up the pyramid, and original 10 will have Phoenix clubs that enter lower down the pyramid.

We donít need less clubs, we need more that have good strategic management/long-term thinking
I meant the present 4 professional leagues. Itís easy to make it smaller. Those who go bust donít get replaced. The old First Division used to be 24 clubs - now 20.

Clubs have had decades to implement strategic management/long-term thinking. The truth is a whole host of club owners have no intention of owning for the long term. They buy in, squeeze whatever money they can out of a club, and then drop it in the shit. Football at the lower end especially is all about the short term.

However things turn out at STFC, Power will be better off than when he bought the club.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: DV Canio on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 11:57:57
I think if a few clubs disappeared at the bottom end they would only be missed by their own fans.
Thats the problem though - if the professional leagues had natural wastage and decreased in size it wouldnít help anyone because the fans would just stop going rather than adopt someone else.

Using us as an example, if we went bust Oxford wouldnít see an increase in fan attendance.

You could argue there are too many teams. Just look at how many clubs are within a small distance of say Rochdale. Now for arguments sake half the clubs in that area had never existed Rochdale would have a bigger catchment area and in theory more fans thus higher income.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Boeta on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 12:24:20
I meant the present 4 professional leagues. Itís easy to make it smaller. Those who go bust donít get replaced. The old First Division used to be 24 clubs - now 20.

Clubs have had decades to implement strategic management/long-term thinking. The truth is a whole host of club owners have no intention of owning for the long term. They buy in, squeeze whatever money they can out of a club, and then drop it in the shit. Football at the lower end especially is all about the short term.

However things turn out at STFC, Power will be better off than when he bought the club.

The Conference is a full-time professional league as well, so thatís 5 leagues

Much of Conf N/S is full time as well, so 6/7 pro leagues.

How do you propose preventing clubs from offering full-time contracts?


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 12:30:25
Whatever money that is sloshing around would be split with fewer clubs.

Canít see fans switching allegiances - theyíll become plastic TV fans or not bother any more.
You've pointed out why your first sentence is wrong in your second sentence. There's very little money "sloshing around" in the Football League, the vast majority of income is from fans.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 12:31:57
Nothing is stopping clubs paying their players to be full time. Nothing will stop present non league clubs from getting promoted into any new pyramid. Iím just saying of 10-12 clubs go bust in the EFL donít replace them. Make the leagues smaller - 20 per league - and continue with promotion/relegation as it is now.

Also, a substantial bond paid by owners into a independently administered EFL fund to cover any future financial difficulties should wheedle out the prospective shyster owners a bit, too.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 12:38:01
You've pointed out why your first sentence is wrong in your second sentence. There's very little money "sloshing around" in the Football League, the vast majority of income is from fans.
Of course there is. Redistributed TV money, sponsorship money spread over fewer clubs. The EFL and the PFA have vast sums that havenít seen the light of day during this pandemic.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 12:55:52
Not sure that it is a good or bad thing. Its just a thing. Life goes on, it adapts, as will football.

(Note: That's my profound quote for the year)


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Panda Paws on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 13:00:08
We should regionalise the the bottom two tiers. Reduce costs, increase fan revenue.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 13:01:14
Of course there is. Redistributed TV money, sponsorship money spread over fewer clubs. The EFL and the PFA have vast sums that havenít seen the light of day during this pandemic.
You're vastly overestimating the central distribution (which is what you're talking about) and the EFL don't have vast sums sat in reserve. The TV revenue is worth about £120m per year but 80% of that goes to Championship clubs who get around £7m each. They already spend well over 100% of their total revenues (i.e. season tickets, TV money the whole nine yards) on wages, so even if you completely cut Leagues 1 and 2 adrift they'd only get another couple of million quid each. Which would be quickly swallowed up by more reckless spending.

What would make far more of a difference is a more equitable split of the money the EFL do have to distribute, so that Leagues 1 and 2 get more like 25% each. That would go a long way to ensuring the bottom two tiers are actually sustainable and force some of the Championship clubs to rein their current death spirals.

Not sure where you get the idea that the EFL have "vast sums" sitting in reserves, the last set of accounts published in June this year show reserves/cash at hand of just under £3m.

Also, a substantial bond paid by owners into a independently administered EFL fund to cover any future financial difficulties should wheedle out the prospective shyster owners a bit, too.
Now that is a much better idea.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 13:03:27
Should have said vast sums to distribute.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: pauld on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 13:06:54
Should have said vast sums to distribute.
OK so then you meant to say "The EFL and the PFA have vast sums that havenít seen the light of day during this pandemic." But that's not true. The EFL have around £130-40m to distribute and they have distributed it. It's simply not true to say that the money "hasn't seen the light of day during this pandemic". It's been distributed and swallowed up in (mainly) player wages, debts, all the usual shit.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 13:11:36
I used to run U11, U13 and U15 cricket teams.

It got harder to field teams or to find teams to play against because all the kids went to Frocester, who had about a dozen teams!

Maybe the same will happen with pro-football. All the little teams fold and we have Liverpool 20th XI vs Man Utd 51st XI


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Pookemon on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 14:19:41
I've heard this argument banded about by Karen Brady and other premier league bosses on the basis that "there is not enough income to support 92 teams".   

That's just utter bollox as there are dozens (possibly even 100 or more) players in the premier league earning more than £100k per week, so there is shit tonnes of money, the clubs just choose to spend it all on wages. 

Also which clubs would are they saying should disappear?  Presumably the smaller ones like Accrington, Harrogate etc.
Accrington won league 2 with a playing budget of £800k which wouldn't buy you 10 days of Gareth Bale!

So if 10 clubs of that size disappeared the big clubs wouldn't notice - but that would be roughly 5 home games less for each of the other lower league teams (10 games, 2 divs) actually reducing their revenue as gate receipts are by far their biggest income.   

Reducing the size of the lower leagues is therefore a perpetual downward cycle which reduces revenue to the lower leagues and increases the gap between the premier league and the rest of us.   It's another stupid idea borne out of self interest and the fuck you attitude of the premier league and should be fought against at all costs.

 


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Jimmy Quinn on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 14:27:22
Reduce the wages of the players nobody derseves/needs £100,000 - £300,000+ per week  ::)


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 14:37:55
Reduce the wages of the players nobody derseves/needs £100,000 - £300,000+ per week  ::)
Pity you can't cap wages for each division - By all means pay stupid money in the Premier League, but cap Championship at £1k per game. L1 at £500 per game. L2 at £250. Conference at £100. Get rid of the power that agents have. No signing on fees or bonuses. All transfer monies go between clubs.

It would never work.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 14:41:19
Reduce the wages of the players nobody derseves/needs £100,000 - £300,000+ per week  ::)

This. Some salaries are obscene


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Jimmy Quinn on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 14:46:52
This. Some salaries are obscene

Greedy bast*rds they should put a cap on it


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Panda Paws on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 14:59:41
Horseshit. No one individual should have their earnings capped. Do you want to cap actors, musicians, entrepreneurs etc? I'd rather the money in the game went to the players, it's not their fault some owners are irresponsible and spend beyond their means.



Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: 4D on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 15:02:42
No one individual is worth quarter of a million quid a week, especially a sports person - any sport


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Jimmy Quinn on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 15:05:49
Horseshit. No one individual should have their earnings capped. Do you want to cap actors, musicians, entrepreneurs etc? I'd rather the money in the game went to the players, it's not their fault some owners are irresponsible and spend beyond their means.



So it's right some of them get in a week what a brain surgeon gets in a year if they're lucky plus most other businesses have a pay structure to adhere to and it's up to the individual to try and be one of the highest earners


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: RedRag on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 15:17:56
I used to run U11, U13 and U15 cricket teams.

It got harder to field teams or to find teams to play against because all the kids went to Frocester, who had about a dozen teams!

Maybe the same will happen with pro-football. All the little teams fold and we have Liverpool 20th XI vs Man Utd 51st XI

I'd add the Women's teams too.  

They are branded, in the main, with the glam premiership club names - and their leagues get listed higher up on the BBC Sport website than Leagues 1 & 2.  It's all about sofa surfers with remotes choosing a brand they identify with (or "support"!), absorbing a few ads whilst watching a game in front of 100 hangers on and a couple of hundred friends and family. Real events attracting thousands, often tens of thousands have been overtaken by TV and branding.  Them's the facts.

Not knocking the women's game by the way.  Glad that we are helping sponsor one of our very own (even if ex-City  ;) ) and certainly enjoy the Women's internationals


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 15:23:11
Horseshit. No one individual should have their earnings capped. Do you want to cap actors, musicians, entrepreneurs etc? I'd rather the money in the game went to the players, it's not their fault some owners are irresponsible and spend beyond their means.


Well, I liken it to me growing up and watching football. I used to enjoy watching Chalford Reserves. They were all committed, all enjoyed their football and were not paid! The standard wasn't brilliant, but it was enjoyable for them to play and me to watch!

I then enjoyed watching Swindon in the mid 80s. The standard wasn't great at first and much of the excitement was watching teams trying to do stuff that they didn't have the skill to do. Every now and again, it came off and it was awesome. Macaris teams were fit and tried hard. If they didn't try they disappeared.

I lost interest when we got up to the Premier. Losing Duncan Shearer to a rival so that they could stop us challenging them was despicable. Then losing Hoddle and Calderwood because of money was galling. But, for a year, every game was a cup final, eventhough most were horrible defeats. Then watching us tumble through the leagues because we couldn't compete financially was awful

I watched a couple of Premier games on Sky this year - What a load of utter dross. Pretty tippy-tappy football. You know who is going to win. It was dull and sterile.

I'm quite happy watching lower quality players trying hard against equally matches lower quality players. If those players want to improve their income by doing a 'proper job' in their spare time then thats ok by me!
 


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: tans on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 15:39:22
No one individual is worth quarter of a million quid a week, especially a sports person - any sport

Dont look at NBA player salaries, that will make you cry ;)


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Chubbs on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 15:45:30
Dont look at NBA player salaries, that will make you cry ;)
Yup was about to say the same. Out of the top 100 paid athletes/sports stars NBA players take up 35 of those spots, with NFL players 31 and football players only 15.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Boeta on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 15:55:46
To run a professional football club, letís say it could potentially cost £2million a year

35 people (players, coaches & commercial) earning average of £30k = £1mill
Then £1mill of overheads

You make £2mill on ticket sales alone with 25 home games with 5000 fans paying £16 per ticket

The number of clubs isnít a problem, itís just that everyone spends beyond their means



Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Panda Paws on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 15:59:34
So it's right some of them get in a week what a brain surgeon gets in a year if they're lucky plus most other businesses have a pay structure to adhere to and it's up to the individual to try and be one of the highest earners

Of course its right. It's not illegal, they're not doing anything wrong and they're worth as much as someone is willing to pay them.

Its bizarre comparing them to brain surgeons, or any other profession.

And I agree NMH. Can't think of much worse than us being a rich guys play thing or a vehicle for an agent like Wolves, and I much prefer non league football.

Doesn't mean it's wrong for people to earn the money a company deems appropriate though. Do traders earn too much too? VCs? Hedge funds?

 What's too much? Should no one earn more than 100k a year? Or should it be directly proportional to the number of lives saved?


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: tans on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 16:05:08
Yup was about to say the same. Out of the top 100 paid athletes/sports stars NBA players take up 35 of those spots, with NFL players 31 and football players only 15.

Giannis Antekmounpo just signed a new long term deal.

$45m. Per season. For the next 5 years.

Biggest contract in NBA history


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Formerly Drummer Boy on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 16:53:19
No, there isnít too many football clubs. The reason why itís only appearing like that is a massive under funding and an imbalanced funding culture within our footballing ecosystem. The bigger clubs and leagues  are strangling the lower leagues from existence.

With anything in the world, you either innovate or die, survival of the fittest death match. But the problem is bigger than football, itís a capitalist mindset culture worldwide thatís the problem, which is then disproportionately spent.

Itís the same problem in Formula 1 where Mercedes win the top prize, earn more sponsorship, more R&D, slicker marketing then the historic teams like Williams are on the verge of going bankrupt.

Same problem in Team GB Olympic funding where if a sport that fails to meet expectation, their funding gets cut and the next generation of athletes

Extending beyond sport, itís the same problem with the NHS where money is being disproportionately spent without investing in solving the root cause problems

Same mindset to my the Dollar, Sterling and Euro and all fiat currencies are fundamentally fucked. Itís only a matter of time before the next financial crisis bigger than weíve ever seen.

Pour yourself a glass of whiskey and smile whilst you can and just understand weíre all fucked one way or another... Invest in Bitcoin and hedge against all nonsense in the world. £10k now, youíll be able to buy the club and fund it to Premier League in 10-15years


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: bamboonoclue on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 17:19:15
BTC is at $28.5k do keep up.

Also I think you will find that Ferrari still earn the most thanks to some "historical agreement" which means they still get a bigger share regardless of where they finish.

With regards players in football (or any sport) being paid too much...I don't think it's the fact they get paid too much, they can't help that to a degree. I think it has a more ethical standing in that how much money does one individual actually need? If you earn more in a year than the GDP of several countries then I think even they might admit that they have much more than they need.

Pay them whatever ever they want but surely there is a point somewhere that says "ok, you definitely have more than enough to live comfortably". I would say, anything above more than reasonable means (and I know several high earners do this anyway) but possibly it should be compulsory after a certain threshold - let's say earning £5m+ then you also have to give back a percentage to your community/area projects. Maybe then a bit more of the wealth will be spread.

I know many will say "why should they, they have earnt it" and indeed they certainly have but I don't think any of them are in danger of choosing weather to have beens for tea, turn the heating off or whether they will have access to clean drinking water tomorrow.

It's not so much the figure paid but the ethics which surrounds these vasts sums. Which quite simply are more than enough.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 17:32:35
Reduce the wages of the players nobody derseves/needs £100,000 - £300,000+ per week  ::)
And they certainly wouldn't earn that sort of money in our world.  So, they would either have to agree to wage reductions or toddle of to Europe where they could earn that type of money. That would then give more opportunities to grass roots English footballers rather than flooding our leagues with overpaid foreign players, thus killing two birds with one stone.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 17:33:55
Pity you can't cap wages for each division - By all means pay stupid money in the Premier League, but cap Championship at £1k per game. L1 at £500 per game. L2 at £250. Conference at £100. Get rid of the power that agents have. No signing on fees or bonuses. All transfer monies go between clubs.

It would never work.
May not work but one of the best idea's yet.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: bamboonoclue on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 17:40:46
And they certainly wouldn't earn that sort of money in our world.  So, they would either have to agree to wage reductions or toddle of to Europe where they could earn that type of money. That would then give more opportunities to grass roots English footballers rather than flooding our leagues with overpaid foreign players, thus killing two birds with one stone.

I think the wage structure would have to be global (or thereabouts) otherwise you know where any UK talents would go....where the money is. Have to have a near on global consensus/agreement for it to work and that would likely be the reason why it never will work as I just can't see that happening. You'd end up with a massive breakaway of elites in a new structure and it wouldn't even be clubs. They'd be just kind of fantasy tournaments ran by bigwigs and huge sponsorship deals. That's another thing, a club could pay a player £5 a week but then have it written into a sponsorship deal that they earn £20m. It happens already aside from their club earnings anyway.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Abrahammer on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 18:50:51
May not work but one of the best idea's yet.

May not work??

A league 2 player would earn about 12k, fair to say it wouldnít work


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 19:03:04
May not work??

A league 2 player would earn about 12k, fair to say it wouldnít work
And take a part time job to supplement their wages - Thus not having so much time to pee it up against a wall and/or get into trouble with the law.

It worked for many years.

It would also give massive incentive to do well and move up the pyramid.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: swindonmaniac on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 20:08:49
May not work??

A league 2 player would earn about 12k, fair to say it wouldnít work
Still more than the minimum wage !!!!!.  :D :D

In fact.more than some are worth, and we've had some of them. Even when we were in the premiership.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: Formerly Drummer Boy on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 20:53:14
BTC is at $28.5k do keep up.

Also I think you will find that Ferrari still earn the most thanks to some "historical agreement" which means they still get a bigger share regardless of where they finish.

With regards players in football (or any sport) being paid too much...I don't think it's the fact they get paid too much, they can't help that to a degree. I think it has a more ethical standing in that how much money does one individual actually need? If you earn more in a year than the GDP of several countries then I think even they might admit that they have much more than they need.

Pay them whatever ever they want but surely there is a point somewhere that says "ok, you definitely have more than enough to live comfortably". I would say, anything above more than reasonable means (and I know several high earners do this anyway) but possibly it should be compulsory after a certain threshold - let's say earning £5m+ then you also have to give back a percentage to your community/area projects. Maybe then a bit more of the wealth will be spread.

I know many will say "why should they, they have earnt it" and indeed they certainly have but I don't think any of them are in danger of choosing weather to have beens for tea, turn the heating off or whether they will have access to clean drinking water tomorrow.

It's not so much the figure paid but the ethics which surrounds these vasts sums. Which quite simply are more than enough.

Yep. Well aware of the BTC price right but 0.5 BTC bought now, in 10-15 years is estimated to be worth £100mil if the stock to flow ratio model is accurate. Do keep up ;)

The rest of your post I agree with :P sadly though, itís not about living comfortable or not. Itís about ego, being the highest paid player, most valued player blah blah blah. Agents are the pricks thatís massively driving up the values so they can cash in and get rich too.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: DV Canio on Thursday, December 31, 2020, 21:41:28
Horseshit. No one individual should have their earnings capped. Do you want to cap actors, musicians, entrepreneurs etc? I'd rather the money in the game went to the players, it's not their fault some owners are irresponsible and spend beyond their means.



Clubs as a whole should have a salary cap.
Something similar to the NFL.

Of course that will never happen because it will cause too much upheaval.
Scraping youth teams (...and big clubs hoarding young players) making in University affiliates and drafting like the NFL bottom to top would be better for young players, again too different to the status quo for it to ever happen.


Title: Re: Are there too many football clubs?
Post by: bamboonoclue on Friday, January 1, 2021, 15:30:04
Yep. Well aware of the BTC price right but 0.5 BTC bought now, in 10-15 years is estimated to be worth £100mil if the stock to flow ratio model is accurate. Do keep up ;)


I doubt too many of the great unwashed have a spare $15k rolling around at this moment in time. In all honesty, I think the true people who gained from BTC was the initial people who "mined" it when it floated about £100 a piece. There's good argument for a few wealthy investors/speculators purchasing pre 2017 but in BTC it's very much a rich man's asset now. Akin to people who used to buy Gold ingots before its unpegging from the dollar.

Although I'm sure you know there are plenty of digital assets and equities out there that are performing much better than BTC which doesn't require someone to risk most of their life savings or pension pots :) Essentially, with some there is good investment that these projects will grow significantly. Personally I have put in on several that were only valued at a few pence. Even though they fine up and down a lot in 5yrs, they are all up much higher than I came in at. To the point that what I initially put in, I have taken out and the rest is just doing what it does. Sometimes I dip back in to accumulate more but I always make sure I take out what I started with.

Have had some interests in Graphene Products for several years now and last year hit developments hard but there is enough in graphene in my own opinion for it to become a huge business. Exciting time and I'm enjoying being a tiny part of that.