Thetownend.com

about the telephone calls from the 2 towers, bloody hell this programme is heavy going, so many incredibly sad a nd tragic stories.

I'm not defending terrorism, but I hope that those who formulated US foreign policy, in relation to The Middle East, feel the guilt that they should.

I'm not defending terrorism, but I hope that those who formulated US foreign policy, in relation to The Middle East, feel the guilt that they should.

Sorry that a bit like blaming the rabbi's for the holocaust, & african tibal leadrers for slavery. There can be no justification what so ever for what happened on 11th Sept.

That's interesting.

i never voted for the common market growing into the EEC.  Or our country having an open door policy.  So, if I do the unspeakable.  The powers that be should take their fair share of the blame?

Pathetic argument. Did your Father, Mother, or children die due to The UK joining the EEC?
A portion of blame should be levied at those who dictated the way The US treated civilians in The Middle East. To argue that without their actions 911 would've happened is naivety, bordering on stupidity.

As I said at the start, I'm not defending terrorism and those directly responsible deserve to die for what they did. But there are others that are responsible too. US Foreign policy started the hatred that many Muslims feel for the West, I expect many of us would feel the same if it was our countries that were involved.

But it's much easier to have the bogeymen as solely Middle Eastern isn't it? 911 was a tragic waste of life, but it wasn't the only one and to put it somehow above everything the West has done in The Middle East to innocent men, women and children is wrong.

There is no justification in kidnapping innocent women and children and flying them into a building.
I'd like to see where I tried to justify it!
stop American imperialism today and that wouldn't stop the murder.  The law of the gun is what  some of these people respect.   :doh:
Yes, what a small percentage respected. Now a much larger percentage. I wonder why.....

I'm sorry Hert but that statement about US foreign policy being the reason that many Muslims hate the West is just utter bollocks.....

Muslim and Western hatred is so old and set in the ways of both the West and the Muslims it is ingrained into each and pretty much every Muslim (and most Westerners)
'Pretty much every Muslim and most Westerners?' I don't know anyone who hates Muslims for being Muslims, or any Muslims who hate Europeans for being European.
That being said all those poor innocents killed in 911 are just that - poor innocents......
I haven't and wouldn't, dissagree. I merely highlighted that there has been a lot of poor innocents killed, the majority living in the Middle East......

False flag.

Strange how the towers collapsed as if by controlled demolition. Also strange how little wreckage of a 757 you could see at the pentagon :secret:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Pentagon_video_security1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Pentagon_video_security2.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Pentagon_video_security3.jpg

or the fact another tower was demolished that day not 200 yards away from the twin towers.

That's interesting.

i never voted for the common market growing into the EEC.  Or our country having an open door policy.  So, if I do the unspeakable.  The powers that be should take their fair share of the blame?

my mum did in 1975 we had a referendum about staying after Labour got elected in 74

God why am I watching this - Its horrible

this is some fucked up shit man.

Dont watch it...sends you loopy,upsets me for days when i watched it last time.

Dont watch it...sends you loopy,upsets me for days when i watched it last time.

I'm not sure removing yourself from the horror is the answer.

It's not pretty, it's not entertaining, It's part of our history and we need to absorb and learn.

Im home alone at the moment and I dont know why Im watching this as its upsetting me but I just cant stop

I have no idea of the programme's angle, but if you're going to absorb and learn anything it would be from the terrorist side of things to prevent something similar happening again.

I was on holiday at the time I had to fly home 2 days after - Its part of the reason Im so terrified of flying

You can learn all that, or you could learn vigilance.

You could learn who your enemy is and what they're capable of

You can learn all that, or you could learn vigilance.

You could learn who your enemy is and what they're capable of

If you're going to learn all that, maybe you should take some time to learn what made them your enemy in the first place? Maybe then we could try and stop making enemies? Or is that too simplistic?

one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter
[/quot

Are you suggesting high jacking a plane and flying innocent women and children into a building is the action of a freedom fighter?

one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter

If you're going to learn all that, maybe you should take some time to learn what made them your enemy in the first place? Maybe then we could try and stop making enemies? Or is that too simplistic?

Are you suggesting high jacking a plane and flying innocent women and children into a building is the action of a freedom fighter?

Obviously he didn't states it as his own point of view... But there are many, many nations consisting of millions of people who celebrated 9/11 and the hijackers.

Yes

Ok. Best not to try, then we can continue repeating the same mistakes and making the same judgement on millions of people, based on the actions of a minority of fanatics. Which in turn will increase the number of fanatics, increase the amount of terrorist acts, increase the West's retaliation, increase the number of innocents killed, thereby stoking up more hatred, which in turn increases the number of fanatics and around and around we go.

What in your opinion, Hertha, has triggered the events of the last 10 years or so?

I completely agree the US needed to retaliate and do something against Bin Laden but the way they and other countries have gone about it wasn't the right way.

yeah man

Anyone who thinks 9/11 is a Govt conspiracy needs to go and boil their head.

Do you honestly think Bin Laden was behind 911 then, Si?

Fuck all the youtube conspiracy theories, just go and look at the footage and ask yourself why building 7 came down later that day.

In one lump.

From the bottom down.

After a relatively small fire took place.

And why the BBC were reporting that building 7 had collapsed on a late afternoon emergency news broadcast. While it could clearly be seen still standing in the backgound as the broadcast went out. Live.

And while your at it; cast your mind back to every plane crash site footage you've ever seen on news reels. What's left of the landing gear, the engines and tail section usually feature.

The wings of the planes on WTC 1 and 2 cut a wide hole in the building as they hit.

The Pentagon plane crash? Nah, fuck all. No engines, no landing gear or wheels and no tail section.

The Pentagon its self? A small hole in the front of the building. No wide impact damage, no damaged, smouldering wings in the wreckage.

Oh, and no CCTV footage ???

Fuck it, lets blame some bearded cunt that the west installed and armed in the first place. Everyone will buy that.

God  Bless America. Yee Ha ;)

 

If the plane didn't hit the Pentagon then where did it and the 64 passengers go? The pilot got lost and went through the Bermuda Triangle perhaps?

no amature pilot could fly a plane that low into the pentagon without touching the ground first.

How the hell do you know?

i can't see the twin towers being a conspiracy. The Pentagon is a good one as is the 7th Tower going down.

Take away the Pentagon issue for a minute, who flew the planes into the Twin Tower? If it was America then they would have had to find pilots willing to commit suicide.

So the twin towers were attacked by Al Qaeda, but the Pentagon was an inside job?
Within hours of each other!?
Well, the plot thickens!

What are you suggesting then Delta ?  That the US deliberately sent planes into their own towers, and sent a plane into the Pentagon, killing an awful lot of local innocent people, just to stir up anti Muslim feeling so they could in some way justify Iraq ?

Are you REALLY suggesting that ?!?!?

That would just be too big, Sheep Shagger, wouldn't it? - UM....YES !

No one would buy a story like that, would they? - Um....NO

If something of that magnitude was ever suggested to have happened, that would be a conspiracy theory gone mad, and an insult to all Americans, wouldn't it? UM...YES

I'm sure Dr Kelly's family completely agree. UM - My understanding of Dr Kelly was that he was a weapons expert that poo pood some of the government claims about Iraq - not really too sure that has a lot of bearing about the 911 attacks ???
Everything is OK. Get back to consuming as much as you can and believing everything you read in the papers and on the telly coz it's all true - God Bless Uncle Sam ;) - Um - Thanks you patronizing twat

Interesting thread this, sombre but interesting. However, just to raise the mood slightly...I was intrigued by some of the conspiracy theories suggested here so thought I would do a little more background reading. Wikipedia has many pages dedicated to them, and make for intersting reading. However right at the bottom of page I found this....

Reptilian shape-shifting aliens

See also: David Icke

David Icke argues that reptilian, shape-shifting extraterrestrial humanoids are responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to.......


I didnt get any further than that through laughing.
Nutter.
 :(

Getting back to 9/11.  Several points io would like to make.
The conspiracy theorists are completely wrong. It was a terrible crime committed by fanatics end of. I saw the plane go into the second tower on TV, not once but a number of times filmed by different people. Don't you think that iof it were not the case that the people of New York would have realised by now. After all they were there & they also would have the least interest in any cover up. Are we also trying to say 7/7 in london was also a set up ?
Al Queda were responsible I have little doubt. Bin Laden had been on the radar for at least 5-10 years before hand.
Nothing EVER could justify the mass murder of 5,000 innocent people IN ANY RELIGION.
Afganistan is a war that I believe IS justified. The taliban were allowing Al Queda to set up there as a base/ training camp. It's no co-incidence that virually all the islamic terorists have been to Pakistan/ Afganistan. The Pakistani Govn is fighting them as are the Afgans with OUR support. Don't tell me that the majority of Afganis want the Taliban back.  What does annoy me intensly is the way our government behave so shoddily towards the armed forces.
I have a theory about Islam though. Basically they are 500 years more recent than christianity,. Christianity committed atrocities in the name of religion on a regular basis for centuries. eg The Spanish Inquisition, Burning People at the stake, etc etc (You could include the Crusades if you want).
I don't know enough about the Muslim religion other than what I read & a relative of mines marriage to a muslim, who went all fundamentalist on her and ended up refusing to work, & screwing up their marriage saying "She couldn't me a muslim wife" because she wouldn't kow tow to his beliefs. (She would hide pork sausages in the freezer). My limited experience though does lead me to conclude that it is an intolerant religion with many different & varying sects (much the same as Christianity until very recently.)
Makes me think that those who don't believe in God are maybe better people than fundamentalists of ANY religion

Getting back to 9/11.  Several points io would like to make.
The conspiracy theorists are completely wrong.

Based on what, exactly? The reports you saw on UK TV? The BBC work for the govt and the rest either work for corporations (ITV - advertisers) or Ruper fucking Murdoch!

It was a terrible crime committed by fanatics end of.
I saw the plane go into the second tower on TV, not once but a number of times filmed by different people. Don't you think that iof it were not the case that the people of New York would have realised by now. After all they were there & they also would have the least interest in any cover up.

Is anyone actually denying the planes hit the buildings??

Al Queda were responsible I have little doubt. Bin Laden had been on the radar for at least 5-10 years before hand.
Nothing EVER could justify the mass murder of 5,000 innocent people IN ANY RELIGION.

On what facts do you base that statement? Are you not airbrushing history slighly? Do the fucking research instead of repeating what you hear on the radio or see on TV. Bin Laden was installed and funded by the west way before 911. Also, do a bit of digging and find out which aircraft WERE allowed to fly in US airspace right after the towers were hit when to everyone else there was a blanket ban on all flights - civil and private. You may be surprised at the answer.

Afganistan is a war that I believe IS justified. The taliban were allowing Al Queda to set up there as a base/ training camp. It's no co-incidence that virually all the islamic terorists have been to Pakistan/ Afganistan. The Pakistani Govn is fighting them as are the Afgans with OUR support. Don't tell me that the majority of Afganis want the Taliban back. 

Fuck me, you must have a Radio 5 Live feed shoved up your nose and right into your brain. This bullshit gets regurgitated until muppets like you repeat it as factual.

What does annoy me intensly is the way our government behave so shoddily towards the armed forces.
I have a theory about Islam though. Basically they are 500 years more recent than christianity,. Christianity committed atrocities in the name of religion on a regular basis for centuries. eg The Spanish Inquisition, Burning People at the stake, etc etc (You could include the Crusades if you want).
I don't know enough about the Muslim religion other than what I read & a relative of mines marriage to a muslim, who went all fundamentalist on her and ended up refusing to work, & screwing up their marriage saying "She couldn't me a muslim wife" because she wouldn't kow tow to his beliefs. (She would hide pork sausages in the freezer). My limited experience though does lead me to conclude that it is an intolerant religion with many different & varying sects (much the same as Christianity until very recently.)
Makes me think that those who don't believe in God are maybe better people than fundamentalists of ANY religion

Nothing like stereotyping and condemning a whole faith / religion based on your limited experience then, eh?

Now, go get yourself a McDonalds, listen to 5 Live for the rest of the day and then knock one or two out when Paxo makes an appearance on Newsnight tonight.

Also, do a bit of digging and find out which aircraft WERE allowed to fly in US airspace right after the towers were hit when to everyone else there was a blanket ban on all flights - civil and private. You may be surprised at the answer.

USA funded Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda - in OPERATION CYCLONE

CLOSE [X] Operation Cyclone

Operation Cyclone was the code name for the United States Central Intelligence Agency program to arm the Afghan mujahideen during the Soviet war in Afghanistan, 1979 to 1989.[1] Operation Cyclone is one of the longest and most expensive covert CIA operations ever undertaken;[2] funding began with $20-30 million per year in 1980 and rose to $630 million per year in 1987.[3]

More..Background
Carter's national security advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski, has stated that the U.S. effort to aid the mujahideen was preceded by an effort to draw the Soviets into a costly and presumably distracting Vietnam War-like conflict. In a 1998 interview with the French news magazine Le Nouvel Observateur, Brzezinski recalled: "We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would... That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Soviets into the Afghan trap... The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter, "We now have the opportunity of giving to the Soviet Union its Vietnam War."[4][5]


The Program

On July 3, 1979, U.S. President Carter signed a presidential finding authorizing funding for anticommunist guerrillas in Afghanistan.[3] Following the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and installation of a more pro-Soviet president, Babrak Karmal, Carter announced, "The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan is the greatest threat to peace since the Second World War".[6]

The program relied heavily on using the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) as an intermediary for funds distribution, passing of weapons, military training and financial support to Afghan resistance groups.[7] Along with funding from similar programs from Britain's MI6 and SAS, Saudi Arabia, and the People's Republic of China,[8] the ISI armed and trained over 100,000 insurgents between 1978 and 1992. They encouraged the volunteers from the Arab states to join the Afghan resistance in its struggle against the Soviet troops based in Afghanistan.[7]


Funding
The U.S. offered two packages of economic assistance and military sales to support Pakistan's role in the war against the Soviet troops in Afghanistan. The first six-year assistance package (1981-87) amounted to US$3.2 billion, equally divided between economic assistance and military sales. The U.S. also sold 40 F-16 aircraft to Pakistan during 1983-87 at a cost of US$1.2 billion outside the assistance package. The second six-year assistance package (1987-93) amounted to US$4.2 billion. Out of this US$2.28 billion were allocated for economic assistance in the form of grants or loan that carried the interest rate of 2-3 per cent. The rest of the allocation (US$1.74 billion) was in the form of credit for military purchases.[7] Sale of non-U.S. arms to Pakistan for destination to Afghanistan was facilitated by Israel.[9][10] Somewhere between $3–$20 billion in US funds were funneled into the country to train and equip Afghan resistance groups with weapons,[citation needed] including Stinger man-portable air-defense systems.

The program funding was increased yearly due to lobbying by prominent U.S. politicians and government officials, such as Charles Wilson, Gordon Humphrey, Fred Ikle, and William Casey.


Aftermath
After the USSR invaded Afghanistan in December 1979, some believed the Soviets were attempting to expand their borders southward in order to gain a foothold in the region. The Soviet Union had long lacked a warm water port, and their movement south seemed to position them for further expansion toward Pakistan in the East, and Iran to the West. American politicians, Republicans and Democrats alike, ignorant of U.S. involvement, feared the Soviets were positioning themselves for a takeover of Middle Eastern oil. Others believed that the Soviet Union was afraid Iran's Islamic Revolution and Afghanistan's Islamization would spread to the millions of Muslims in the USSR.

After the invasion, Carter announced what became known as the Carter Doctrine: that the U.S. would not allow any other outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf. He terminated the Russian Wheat Deal, which was intended to establish trade with USSR and lessen Cold War tensions. The grain exports had been beneficial to people employed in agriculture, and the Carter embargo marked the beginning of hardship for American farmers. He also prohibited Americans from participating in the 1980 Summer Olympics in Moscow, and reinstated registration for the draft for young males.

The U.S. shifted its interest from Afghanistan after the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Afghanistan. American funding of Afghan resistance leader Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and his Hezbi Islami party was cut off immediately.[11] The U.S. also reduced its assistance for Afghan refugees in Pakistan.

In October 1990, U.S. President George H. W. Bush refused to certify that Pakistan did not possess a nuclear explosive device, triggering the imposition of sanctions against Pakistan under the Pressler Amendment (1985) in the Foreign Assistance Act. This disrupted the second assistance package offered in 1987 and discontinued economic assistance and military sales to Pakistan with the exception of the economic assistance on way to Pakistan. Military sales and training program were abandoned as well and some of the Pakistani military officers under training in the U.S. were asked to return home.[7]


Criticism

The U.S. government has been criticized for allowing Pakistan to channel a disproportionate amount of its funding to controversial Afghan resistance leader Gulbuddin Hekmatyar,[12] who Pakistani officials believed was "their man".[13] Hekmatyar has been criticized for killing other mujahideen and attacking civilian populations, including shelling Kabul with American-supplied weapons, causing 2,000 casualties. Hekmatyar was said to be friendly with Osama bin Laden, founder of al-Qaeda, who was running an operation for assisting "Afghan Arab" volunteers fighting in Afghanistan, called Maktab al-Khadamat. Alarmed by his behavior, Pakistan leader General Zia warned Hekmatyar, "It was Pakistan that made him an Afghan leader and it is Pakistan who can equally destroy him if he continues to misbehave."[14]

In the late 1980s, Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto, concerned about the growing strength of the Islamist movement, told President George H. W. Bush, "You are creating a Frankenstein."[15]

The U.S. says that all of its funds went to native Afghan rebels and denies that any of its funds were used to supply Osama bin Laden or foreign Arab mujahideen. It is estimated that 35,000 foreign Muslims from 43 Islamic countries participated in the war.[


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone

Based on what, exactly? The reports you saw on UK TV? The BBC work for the govt and the rest either work for corporations (ITV - advertisers) or Ruper fucking Murdoch!

I thought News International generally hated the BBC. Hmmm

The last line of this post is ludicrous all those people who commit attrocities can claim to be as religous as they want but they are not following the scriptures for any religion.  You will find the vast majority of religous people from all religions distance themselves from any fanatics and just want to live peacefully together.

That's what they want you to think.

Wrap your head in tinfoil before it's too late.

Read the whole sentence. I used the words maybe & Fundamentalists. ie. Someone who says they believe in god but holds extreme views is in my view maybe not such a good person as someone who doesn't believe in god but is not a mudering bastard. Clear enough ?

Thats pretty obvious though isn't it? whether you hold religous beliefs or not if you start killing people you are generally a cunt.  Just seemed a strange statement from you.

Better to be an "unbeliever" than a murderer