Poll
Question: Who gets your vote come GE day?  (Voting closed: Friday, July 5, 2024, 18:37:35)
Conservatives - 6 (5.4%)
Labour - 58 (51.8%)
Lib Dems - 15 (13.4%)
SNP - 0 (0%)
Plaid Cymru - 0 (0%)
Green - 7 (6.3%)
Reform UK - 13 (11.6%)
Spoilt paper - 8 (7.1%)
Not voting - 5 (4.5%)
Total Voters: 112

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4D
Or not 4D that is the question

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« Reply #30 on: Thursday, June 6, 2024, 17:08:06 »

It is for many of the people against it

What numbers have you got for that?
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RobertT

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« Reply #31 on: Thursday, June 6, 2024, 17:21:03 »

The question that should be asked and addressed about illegal immigration is what the end game for them is.

Are they going to get a job, their own accommodation, their own family etc - the usual things we all aspire to.

To me it is very doubtful. Then what do they do for the rest of their lives?

It's not really illegal immigration though, is it?  People conflate immigration and Asylum.  The latter requires you to enter a Country and then stake a claim, there is no legal/illegal about it, in immigration terms.  Illegal immigration would be a person entering on a valid Visa and then doing something like overstaying, trying to work without authorisation etc., or sneak in and not make any claim for asylum.  The boats situation, no different to what every developed Country is experiencing, relates to people who make a claim for Asylum once they arrive.

There are two primary ways to reduce Asylum numbers (those residing in your Country) - fix the shit going on elsewhere (or stop causing in the first place) and have a legal process in place that supports the quick and fair decision making process for each claim.

As I understand the world today:

The developed Countries have caused a fair amount of the shit that causes people to flee their homes, and it is only going to get worse as Climate Change ruins entire Countries.

Most developed Countries have under funded and under skilled Asylum and immigration systems - usually on purpose as some sort of hope it will deter people.  Trust me - if someone is willing to risk death to get to your shores, they won't give a flying fuck about the legal difficulties once they arrive.

Imagine a world where people were not living in war torn Countries, or Countries rampant with corruption and crime, supported by Developed countries (through exploitation of precious metals, or oil, or crops etc).  Imagine if an Asylum claim was handled in weeks, not years.

It won't happen, political parties will continue to fight over the necessary forms to be used, or charter some planes.
« Last Edit: Thursday, June 6, 2024, 17:23:12 by RobertT » Logged
RobertT

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« Reply #32 on: Thursday, June 6, 2024, 17:28:05 »

What numbers have you got for that?

You'll never get any.  I don't know what % of people oppose immigration and/or asylum based on Race, but I think it is fair to say that a Ukranian Refugee and a Yemeni Refugee would get treated differently by many people, even if they rocked up on the same boat.  I'm not certain race is the defining issue though, most people, in most Countries have a tendency to be a bit anti-foreigner.  People are not keen on differences.
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Moss

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« Reply #33 on: Thursday, June 6, 2024, 17:36:24 »

Can we change the 80% bollocks to 19% thick fucking cunts?
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TailBetweenLegs

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« Reply #34 on: Thursday, June 6, 2024, 17:39:39 »

What numbers have you got for that?
Well i know a few raging racists unfortunately who are against it for race reasons. Are you suggesting that there are not any people who are against it for those reasons?
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4D
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« Reply #35 on: Thursday, June 6, 2024, 18:17:35 »

Well i know a few raging racists unfortunately who are against it for race reasons. Are you suggesting that there are not any people who are against it for those reasons?

You tell me? Nobody knows exactly the split, but there is a split. Of course you get your racist element who don't want anyone migrating to the UK. My gripe is that anyone against economic migrants for example gets tarred as a gammon etc. even if they are welcoming of refugees looking for help.
What's your opinion on those that pay traffickers thousands to get to the UK?
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Legends-Lounge

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« Reply #36 on: Thursday, June 6, 2024, 19:32:45 »

LL - a British Indian who is against immigration Cheesy

Couldn't make it up

Wrong. On both points.
« Last Edit: Thursday, June 6, 2024, 19:37:12 by Legends-Lounge » Logged
TailBetweenLegs

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« Reply #37 on: Friday, June 7, 2024, 08:19:49 »

You tell me? Nobody knows exactly the split, but there is a split. Of course you get your racist element who don't want anyone migrating to the UK. My gripe is that anyone against economic migrants for example gets tarred as a gammon etc. even if they are welcoming of refugees looking for help.
What's your opinion on those that pay traffickers thousands to get to the UK?
They are an absolute fucking disgrace, What a strange question

My original point was that there are people there are a number of people who don't want immigration because they are racist. I believe you said can i prove that? You have agreed above
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Nemo
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« Reply #38 on: Friday, June 7, 2024, 08:27:30 »

It's true that racist people are concerned about migration (both asylum and economic migration, which really should be discussed separately). It's not the only reason to be concerned about them though, and it doesn't help just to dismiss all concerns as racism. as as RobT says above, the numbers are already high and only likely to rise, no matter what any party does here. There are going to have to be some very difficult decisions and adult discussions here, as on tax - not sure either party wants to have them right now though.

Both main parties (and most of the smaller ones) just seem to want to fight a very narrow campaign and not talk about the big issues facing Britain - an ageing population, a high level of debt and an already high tax burden alongside minimal growth for a decade or more and failing public services. I get why - it's not good for your electoral chances to say "tell you what folks, to sort out public services there are going to have to be a bunch of tax rises" or "we'll keep taxes down but public services are going to remain fucked lads", but it is where we are.

At the risk of coming over all Liz Truss, growth is about the only thing that would get us out of that hole. In many ways she had the right diagnosis, just a fucking nuts way of trying to achieve it.
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Audrey

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« Reply #39 on: Friday, June 7, 2024, 08:57:06 »

It's not really illegal immigration though, is it?  People conflate immigration and Asylum.  The latter requires you to enter a Country and then stake a claim, there is no legal/illegal about it, in immigration terms.  Illegal immigration would be a person entering on a valid Visa and then doing something like overstaying, trying to work without authorisation etc., or sneak in and not make any claim for asylum.  The boats situation, no different to what every developed Country is experiencing, relates to people who make a claim for Asylum once they arrive.

There are two primary ways to reduce Asylum numbers (those residing in your Country) - fix the shit going on elsewhere (or stop causing in the first place) and have a legal process in place that supports the quick and fair decision making process for each claim.

As I understand the world today:

The developed Countries have caused a fair amount of the shit that causes people to flee their homes, and it is only going to get worse as Climate Change ruins entire Countries.

Most developed Countries have under funded and under skilled Asylum and immigration systems - usually on purpose as some sort of hope it will deter people.  Trust me - if someone is willing to risk death to get to your shores, they won't give a flying fuck about the legal difficulties once they arrive.

Imagine a world where people were not living in war torn Countries, or Countries rampant with corruption and crime, supported by Developed countries (through exploitation of precious metals, or oil, or crops etc).  Imagine if an Asylum claim was handled in weeks, not years.

It won't happen, political parties will continue to fight over the necessary forms to be used, or charter some planes.
But whatever term is used or the reasons for any sort of immigration my basic question stands. What is the end game for the thousands of, mainly, young men that have ended up here. What is the rest of their lives likely to be like. If they donít get granted asylum they cannot work and surely they canít be expected to live forever on The Bibby or hundreds of hotels (flop houses).

Thereís no plan at all for them once they hit Europe let alone what happens for the next 30, 40, 50 years.
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The King of Tonga

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« Reply #40 on: Friday, June 7, 2024, 09:50:18 »

Like my wife, she turned up at Madrid airport and claimed asylum, dirty no good fucker should go back to Venezuela and get murdered for speaking out against a dictatorship

Do people realise how fucking lucky they are to be born in western Europe.

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Posh Red
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« Reply #41 on: Friday, June 7, 2024, 10:00:00 »

The maddest thing about immigration is that those requesting citizenship are not allowed to work while their application is being processed. We had a chef/cook at a local pub who was a really good guy who had a visa to work here and after a year or so decided heíd like to stay, so applied to do so but was told heíd have to give up his job whilst the application was processed, which meant he could no longer pay his rent & support his family so decided to go back.

The pub then struggled to get a replacement and was sold off shortly afterwards to become an Indian restaurant.

The immigration system is broken, because like every other public service itís been under funded for many years
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RobertT

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« Reply #42 on: Friday, June 7, 2024, 13:26:13 »

But whatever term is used or the reasons for any sort of immigration my basic question stands. What is the end game for the thousands of, mainly, young men that have ended up here. What is the rest of their lives likely to be like. If they donít get granted asylum they cannot work and surely they canít be expected to live forever on The Bibby or hundreds of hotels (flop houses).

Thereís no plan at all for them once they hit Europe let alone what happens for the next 30, 40, 50 years.

That's the point - they are escaping something, so I doubt have a master plan of what happens next.  That is why one part of the long term solution is having a well funded system that supports the Asylum process.  On one side, that would be a quick decision that enables them to become economically viable, by granting them access to work and being able to fund their own accommodation, in time.  By supporting language learning, if needed, etc.

On the other hand, it may men denying their request and getting that put through any appeals as quickly as possible (not rushed to just reject, a fair but efficient process).  Once a final determination is reached, they are deported.

People do not risk their lives for our benefit systems - they risk them to save them, or, to try and better them.  If it is the latter, they should be using the Visa type processes that exists in most countries, and if they do not, they would risk being deported.  I'd have no issue with a deportation uptick, if it was supported by the investment necessary in a fair Asylum process. 

Do all that and you'd reduce the need to take such risky ways of entry.

It won't reduce the demand though - for that, you still need to look at host of fucked up Countries and ask questions about what can be done to ease the pain.

I say all that as someone who would have wide open borders, in every Country, something I know would never be approved or adopted by any Country!  We are a nomadic species, the world is forever changing (environmentally) and we've created an arbitrary process for dividing up ownership based on bits of land being passed down by generations.  I don't think those factors align properly.
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