Mick Philpott

[Reg Smeeton]

I see where you're coming from Arriba and yes, you are correct in terms of paying less NI.  However, people that have never worked or come in from abroad have payed no NI whatsoever.  Why should they be eligible or benefits?  As fatbasher and SY said, the system is completely skewed.

If you come from an EU country, then you can transfer your equivalent NI across....like you can if going the other way. particularly applies to pensions.

[joteddyred]

If you come from an EU country, then you can transfer your equivalent NI across....like you can if going the other way. particularly applies to pensions.

To be fair I didn't know that.  My point still stands though in relation to those born here that have never worked.  As this thread started out in relation to Mick Philpott, I would guess he falls into that category?

[sonicyouth]

People who finished school/college/university without having worked and find themselves struggling to gain employment would be fucked, that's probably why.

[ghanimah]

To be fair I didn't know that.  My point still stands though in relation to those born here that have never worked.  As this thread started out in relation to Mick Philpott, I would guess he falls into that category?

Mick Philpott has worked - he used to be a soldier

[horlock07]

Again, you're listening to the spin from politicians - there aren't that many real spongers. What you do have is a lot of people that at some point wanted to work but have been let down and had their soul destroyed by the system. Pretty much all the people you could class as spongers were created by the system.

I am sorry but this is bollocks.

I worked Saturdays from 15 for pocket/beer money and continued to work through education.

I left educational and sought and got myself a job.

I got made redundant,  signed on for 3 months whilst I found myself another job.

The state owes me nothing I got on because I wanted to,  this whole let down my the state business is a simple screen for laziness,  you want a job go and get one,  strangely its often the same saying eastern Europeans stealing jobs don't blame other's,  take responsibility for yourself!

[sonicyouth]

I am sorry but this is bollocks.

I worked Saturdays from 15 for pocket/beer money and continued to work through education.

I left educational and sought and got myself a job.

I got made redundant,  signed on for 3 months whilst I found myself another job.

The state owes me nothing I got on because I wanted to,  this whole let down my the state business is a simple screen for laziness,  you want a job go and get one,  strangely its often the same saying eastern Europeans stealing jobs don't blame other's,  take responsibility for yourself!

Unfortunately, it isn't that simple now.

[fatbasher]

If you come from an EU country, then you can transfer your equivalent NI across....like you can if going the other way. particularly applies to pensions.

Yes of course you can, however, that's not the point and you know it. I like the handgrenade approach you have when you comment. Pull the pin with an open comment and pass the grenade to someone else and stand well back.

So, for the benefit of those who may have missed the point I'll lob the grenade back to Reg. Those pesky east european people who HAD EVERY RIGHT under eu labour laws to come here did so from ecconomies where their labour costs were starting from a much lower base than here. So they come here and get double what they were back home but less than the current rate paid locally. Thus undermining the local employement pool and effectively putting then in a situation where they are better off on benefits! also lots of these guys get paid cash. NO NI no income tax, not paying into the system to contribute to the benefits and NHS coffers etc for the indiginous unemployed folk they have displaced particularly in rural farming areas among others. Other eu countries played the 5 year joker on stopping the new influx of east european workers from flooding into their countries for exactly the reasons I have highlighted. Once that five year rule laspsed most of those who would go have come to us and Ireland. Just you wait till next year when the Bulgarians and Romanians come over here. You think pikey's are are a nusiance, you aint seen nothing yet.

You know those fallen hero's that Levi whats his face was on about? they's be turning in theur graves if they could see the what the freedoms they sacrificed themselves have bought us, what a waste of such young lives. 

[ghanimah]

Yes of course you can, however, that's not the point and you know it. I like the handgrenade approach you have when you comment. Pull the pin with an open comment and pass the grenade to someone else and stand well back.

So, for the benefit of those who may have missed the point I'll lob the grenade back to Reg. Those pesky east european people who HAD EVERY RIGHT under eu labour laws to come here did so from ecconomies where their labour costs were starting from a much lower base than here. So they come here and get double what they were back home but less than the current rate paid locally. Thus undermining the local employement pool and effectively putting then in a situation where they are better off on benefits! also lots of these guys get paid cash. NO NI no income tax, not paying into the system to contribute to the benefits and NHS coffers etc for the indiginous unemployed folk they have displaced particularly in rural farming areas among others. Other eu countries played the 5 year joker on stopping the new influx of east european workers from flooding into their countries for exactly the reasons I have highlighted. Once that five year rule laspsed most of those who would go have come to us and Ireland. Just you wait till next year when the Bulgarians and Romanians come over here. You think pikey's are are a nusiance, you aint seen nothing yet.

You know those fallen hero's that Levi whats his face was on about? they's be turning in theur graves if they could see the what the freedoms they sacrificed themselves have bought us, what a waste of such young lives. 

As a technical aside the limits on free movement can be up to 7 years

[jonny72]

you want a job go and get one

Unfortunately the maths don't work for that idea - for every 1 vacancy there are 5 people out of work.

Which is a major issue with the scroungers argument, even if everyone on benefits wanted a job and tried their best to get one then 4 out of 5 people would still be out of work. I'd argue that even if there are a lot of scroungers it's kind of irrelevant, say they changed their ways and got jobs they'd simply be taking those jobs away from the non-scroungers (who would then be relabelled as the scroungers).

Maybe the politicians should focus on creating jobs, rather than criticising the people for whom there is none.

[fatbasher]

Unfortunately the maths don't work for that idea - for every 1 vacancy there are 5 people out of work.

Which is a major issue with the scroungers argument, even if everyone on benefits wanted a job and tried their best to get one then 4 out of 5 people would still be out of work. I'd argue that even if there are a lot of scroungers it's kind of irrelevant, say they changed their ways and got jobs they'd simply be taking those jobs away from the non-scroungers (who would then be relabelled as the scroungers).

Maybe the politicians should focus on creating jobs, rather than criticising the people for whom there is none.

Maybe the politicians should focus on creating jobs, rather than criticising the people for whom there is none.

Getting out of Europe would be a good start. £53,000,000 per DAY every DAY put back into manufacturing and technology based  jobs would be a good start.

[Reg Smeeton]

Maybe the politicians should focus on creating jobs, rather than criticising the people for whom there is none.

Isn't this what your mate Gideon has been doing...slash the public sector, thus allowing the private sector opportunity to create plenty of low wage, part time or workfare jobs.  When I say slash, some of it is recategorising previously public sector jobs, as now private sector in fields like Health and Education.  For example, Gove's academy program, means people previously employed by a local council are now employed by companies.

The problem with the low wage economy though, is that nobody has much money, so there isn't the necessary drive on consumer spending to create the growth needed to create further jobs.

[Levi lapper]

"if you give the rich money, they save in in off shore tax free investments"

Like comrade Blair and his "fat cat buddies"?

Ummm yeah. As well as the traditional tory fat cats and ruling class elite. What's your point?

[fatbasher]

Isn't this what your mate Gideon has been doing...slash the public sector, thus allowing the private sector opportunity to create plenty of low wage, part time or workfare jobs.  When I say slash, some of it is recategorising previously public sector jobs, as now private sector in fields like Health and Education.  For example, Gove's academy program, means people previously employed by a local council are now employed by companies.

The problem with the low wage economy though, is that nobody has much money, so there isn't the necessary drive on consumer spending to create the growth needed to create further jobs.

Your comment got ruined by your first sentence. Very childish.

[RobertT]

So, for the benefit of those who may have missed the point I'll lob the grenade back to Reg. Those pesky east european people who HAD EVERY RIGHT under eu labour laws to come here did so from ecconomies where their labour costs were starting from a much lower base than here. So they come here and get double what they were back home but less than the current rate paid locally. Thus undermining the local employement pool and effectively putting then in a situation where they are better off on benefits! also lots of these guys get paid cash.

You see, this is the bit I don't like about Euro bashing.  Bash it if you absolutely believe the state should keep it's nose out, full stop, but this argument carries no weight.  Just ask someone from Teeside why they haven't trotted on down to London, which is effectively a separate economy.  They'll probably state family reasons, but that didn't seem to stop the Polish guy.

That's not me trying to undermine the guy from wherever, but merely to point out that as a "Nation" we have loads of regional economies all being subsidised by London.  Should London call to remove the subsidies by retaining their own taxation?  How far do you take it, could Chelsea and Kensington strike out on their own?

The whole point of the EU is to move towards Economic and Social Cohesion - one big state.  Sod trading, sod passport control, it's about everyone being in one big country together.  Within that, you move to the work, and the state should do it's bit to support the poorer areas by distributing the taxation accordingly.  So, Greece and Italy, or The Rhonda Valley should get support to try and stop the flow of jobs out.

I'm essentially pro, but on the above basis can see a good argument for being against, but everyone seems to have a go at Europe for essentially delivering on what it was set-up to do - explicity in the Treaty of Rome.

So where does that leave me?  Sort out tax avoidance first, invest in under performing regions, then sort out the benefit system once the structure is in place to support it.

[Not that Nice If I'm Honest]

It seems like it's Fatbasher against the World on here, so Fatbasher, you talk alot of sense, you're not alone