Mick Philpott

[Honkytonk]

So where does that leave me?  Sort out tax avoidance first, invest in under performing regions, then sort out the benefit system once the structure is in place to support it.

You can see this effect in Wales. Go to Swansea or Cardiff and they've got great big shiny new town centres built with European money. It's helped Swansea's local economy a bit, as there are a lot more independents setting up now, and the new bus station makes it a proper transport hub for the valleys. Add to that the marina development and the decent football club and it's improving massively- I could see it year on year just by going to uni there for 3 years.

Can't say much about Cardiff though, as I've never spent a lot of time there.

[ghanimah]

The whole point of the EU is to move towards Economic and Social Cohesion - one big state.  Sod trading, sod passport control, it's about everyone being in one big country together.  Within that, you move to the work, and the state should do it's bit to support the poorer areas by distributing the taxation accordingly.  So, Greece and Italy, or The Rhonda Valley should get support to try and stop the flow of jobs out.

I'm essentially pro, but on the above basis can see a good argument for being against, but everyone seems to have a go at Europe for essentially delivering on what it was set-up to do - explicity in the Treaty of Rome.

More specifically the whole point of the EU is political union - via a process of transferring power, democracy and sovereignty from countries to an unelected bureaucracy. "Economic and Social Cohesion" are mere stepping stones in a process that's ongoing.

Spot on about the EEC/EU doing exactly what it says on the tin. It's often forgotten that the real enemy is Whitehall not Brussels. The EU never invaded us, we choose to join...well more accurately politicians did without a mandate of the British people and have lied to us ever since about the consequences. And we can choose to leave.

[RobertT]

It seems like it's Fatbasher against the World on here, so Fatbasher, you talk alot of sense, you're not alone

Don't get me wrong, I respect anyone who thinks the idea of the EU is not something they want to be part of.  I can completely understand why.
What frsutrates me is that people seem to confuse the EU with a trade agreement, which it is not and was never designed to be.  The whole free market was something we, as in the UK via Politicians, the press and antipathy to understanding of the public, created.  We latched on to a point in time in the development of the EU and liked that bit, but never took the time to appreciate where it had come from and where it was inevitable it would attempt to go.

It was set-up post war to prevent that from ever happening again, which can only occur if the amalgamated countries work as one Political Union.  The EU in coming years will seek to move some taxation policies to Brussels, some further encroachment into legislation full stop.  It's what it is designed for and us being a little bit and a little bit out can't be sustained long term, it defies the principles.  Now, it might be, that the pain of transition and countries behaving like we do will eventually undermine the EU to the point of it crumbling, but we should never confuse it with some sort of Club.  We should not complain that the EU seeks to further centralise policy, that's what it is supposed to do.  The eventual goal being a Central European Govt and Bank followed by Regional hubs which may be smaller than the countries that exist today to react to local conditions.

And that last bit is why I appreciate anyone who thinks they'd want out.

[ghanimah]

Don't get me wrong, I respect anyone who thinks the idea of the EU is not something they want to be part of.  I can completely understand why.
What frsutrates me is that people seem to confuse the EU with a trade agreement, which it is not and was never designed to be.  The whole free market was something we, as in the UK via Politicians, the press and antipathy to understanding of the public, created.  We latched on to a point in time in the development of the EU and liked that bit, but never took the time to appreciate where it had come from and where it was inevitable it would attempt to go.

It was set-up post war to prevent that from ever happening again, which can only occur if the amalgamated countries work as one Political Union.  The EU in coming years will seek to move some taxation policies to Brussels, some further encroachment into legislation full stop.  It's what it is designed for and us being a little bit and a little bit out can't be sustained long term, it defies the principles.  Now, it might be, that the pain of transition and countries behaving like we do will eventually undermine the EU to the point of it crumbling, but we should never confuse it with some sort of Club.  We should not complain that the EU seeks to further centralise policy, that's what it is supposed to do.  The eventual goal being a Central European Govt and Bank followed by Regional hubs which may be smaller than the countries that exist today to react to local conditions.

And that last bit is why I appreciate anyone who thinks they'd want out.

Great post...can you now send it to David Cameron to highlight the fact that repatriating powers is nonsense on stilts because it goes against the compete fabric of what the thing was designed for in the first place

[Flashheart]

Eugh.

What a horrible thread. I shan't be opening this again.

[Reg Smeeton]

Eugh.

What a horrible thread. I shan't be opening this again.

Here's one for you then Flasheart....just been reading about this lady who's going to be executed for drug smuggling in Bali.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21137649

I believe they still have the death penalty in Thailand....does it act as a deterrent?

[sonicyouth]

So the EU made Philpott kill his children?

[Reg Smeeton]

So the EU made Philpott kill his children?

Norway isn't in the EU...can you tell the difference?

[sonicyouth]

Yeah, mass murderers in Norway kill 70 odd children instead of just 6.

[horlock07]

Interestingly hidden in all the blurb about Thatcher is this little quote which still rings a little true when people are arguing that people have been let down by the state:

"I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand 'I have a problem, it is the government's job to cope with it!' or 'I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!'; 'I am homeless, the government must house me!' and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society?

"There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families, and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first.

"It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business and people have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations."

[Not that Nice If I'm Honest]

So the EU made Philpott kill his children?

Is that true ?
Can they do that ?

[Batch]

I could see it year on year just by going to uni there for 3 years.

When were you there, I'm guessing 95ish or just after? They'd just started the centre after the "new" motorway junction when I left then.

Apologies if I've asked you this before..getting old.

[Honkytonk]

When were you there, I'm guessing 95ish or just after? They'd just started the centre after the "new" motorway junction when I left then.

Apologies if I've asked you this before..getting old.

No, you haven't asked before. I was there 2009-2012. So pretty recently.

Did they have the roundabout when you were there? I remember people talking about it like it was some great demon that they had vanquished from their town with fire and pitchforks.

[Batch]

Probably. They had lots of roundabouts. Which one?

Anyway apologies, assumed they'd finished the town centre a year or two after they started it! Maybe they did, then did it all again 10 years later

[Honkytonk]

Probably. They had lots of roundabouts. Which one?

Anyway apologies, assumed they'd finished the town centre a year or two after they started it! Maybe they did, then did it all again 10 years later

They had more than one? I was always led to presume there was a huge one right in the middle of the town that for some reason all Swanseans hated with a passion.

They don't have any now. It's kind of sad.

And as far as the town centre goes, I think there has been two or maybe even three waves of improvements on it.