finally justice for the 96?

[LucienSanchez]

The inquiry have the originals and the altered versions, so no worries about providing that evidence.

[walcot red]

Trouble is this happened 23 years ago... the senior Police officers ail by now be retired and probably dead. They are the ones who should and would face prosecution

There has been people involved with the Holocaust and the Khmer Rouge (apologies for spelling) being brought to justice, in their 80's or 90's. It makes no difference they did something wrong and should rightly be punished.

[Miles Mayhem]

a beautiful moment of football fans united to remember this terrible event

[RobertT]

Hmmm, DMR and Matchworn shirts need to talk to each other, then I think we fix both of them.

DMR believes it's boring because we all knew anyway, yet matchworn has swallowed the bullshit around ticketless drunk fans being a contributing factor.  Given that drunk ticketless fans was a bullshit excuse peddled by the authorities, Matchworn believes it still, yet DMR think everyone knows the truth.  Clearly everyone doesn't knwo the truth, mainly because it never came out.

Jonny, you mentioned how Taylor already covered this, and to some extent he did.  However the issue was the inquest into the cause of death, which has effectively meant no criminal prosecutions were possible.  A new inquest will more than likely get the right information this time and come to a very different conclusion, which in turn paves the way for criminal charges.

As for police officers hiding behind orders, bollocks.  If peoples lives are in danger, the law will support you anyway if contradicting orders.

[thedarkprince]

Morally I would hope that there was at least one police officer who refused to change their statement or at least retain a copy of the original one and thing bring this to the attention of the IPCC  - my fear is that the IPCC were aware and were instructed not to act which makes a mockery of the whole independent thing...

The statements that have been released appear to show parts that have been crossed out so it's quite clear to see what was originally included. Granted, this was just one image I've seen but assume its not a case where a second statement has been given which completely contradicts the original. Seems more co-ordinated than that.

[TheDukeOfBanbury]

I think its easy for fans of a certain age to empaphise. As Chalky above says football fans back then were treated with nothing but complete and utter contempt - the lowest of the low. The police could do whatever they wanted to do with you and the magistrates would back them up - you had no rights, you were a worthless piece of shit, you were sub human, you were gulity of whatever a copper said you did, even if you had witnessess to the contrary. The police were unaccountable. There were no mobile phones, less cameras etc so it was your word against theirs.
This institutionalised contempt manifested itself in Hillsborough and the lying, cheating cowards tried to cover it up by playing the football scum card. Talk about having your cake and eating it.
I won't replay the events but virtually all football fans knew what went on. A friend of mine was in the Forest end and thney could see what was going no and tried to get on the pitch to help and was baton charged. He lives with this every day  being so near yet being unable to help. Seeing people die in front of his eyes.
If you're a football fan of a certain age, it could have been you. I can remember numerous occasions with Town where I struggled to breathe, Mansfield, Luton, The Scum. Any of these could have been a Hillsborough but they weren't.
I admire Hicks, I admire any of the families, i admire the people at the game - they've got to live with this every day. The uselless pieces of shit who have escaped punishment (Dukenfield etc) probably live in a world of hell caused by their cowardly, inhumane arrogance and contempt for their fellow man.
I want this talked about in 100 years so as we don't have another one. Its like i still want all Nazis hunted down until their final breath.
I hope this gives some semblance of closure to the families but I doubt it.
 And Mex - as for safe standing, maybe it can't be reintroduced because the police can't be trusted not because the fans can't behave.

 

So very true.
I recall numerous times walking back to Swindon station to catch my train back to Didcot. I was a young lad but often treated like scum, due to simply being a football fan.

So many times I was herded back with the away fans despite being a Swindon fan and if you mentioned this to plod you were immediately told to basically "shut it" or having 2 options one being arrested or two being hit.
The bricks and bottles often rained down near the old bus depot or from the station wall but that was the norm.
Nothing compares to the terracing but the fact now remains that terracing was introduced based on a pack of lies from this disaster.
Lets see what happens now to those who were "guilty".

[westyorksnffc]

This ticketless drunk fan argument is starting to get on my fucking nerves,TWO reports have shown this to be false,it was the negligence of the police that rounded the fans up outside the gates causing a rush and it was the police who opened the gates for them to go.Bet the ignorant cunts happy to keep peddling this shit have not read 1 page of the report

Okay then, from somebody who was there that day, I have to say this whole report is nothing more than utter bollox, it says that at 2.39pm there was a tannoy announcement outside the Leppings Lane end asking for fans to stop pushing, yet the fans "were not to blame", what a complete and utter load of tosh. At around 2.45pm, as I walked past the Leppings Lane end the crowds outside were huge, and as clear as day I remember a load of mouthy Scouse blokes steaming past some mates of theirs and clearly shouting "come on, we're going to try and get in", now try and disect that statement all you want, but to me that still says ticketless fans trying to force their way in.

Another part of the report says "there was an abnormally large amount of supporters in the concourse prior to kick-off". Well of course there was, it was an FA Cup Semi Final, not Sheffield Wednesday v Luton Town, you've only got to look at any large following away from home in an older style ground for fans to see "an abnormally large amount of supporters in the concourse prior to kick-off", and no doubt a lot of those people were drinking, hence the reason why they were there and not on the terrace (we've all done it).

Oh, and let's test the dead for alcohol, hang on a minute, this were the innocent lot, the reason they died is because they got in earlier than most, hence the reason why they were at the front, it was the wankers at the back that crushed the poor sods.

All this report has done is given the Scousers more ammunition, they're innocent after-all, the report says so, and that idiot Cameron has just won a blue vote in the red half of Merseyside by issuing an apology, but lets be honest, Heysel - not Liverpool's fault, it was the Chelsea skinheads; Athens in 2007 - innocent Liverpool fans having their tickets nicked off them by ticketless Liverpool fans (this is true, the amount of callers on to 5Live after that game was immense), and as Wrighty as alluded to, the Carling Cup final last season too.

And going back to Hillsborough, let us not forget the Liverpool fans on the halfway line goading us Forest fans, and the fact that a lot of the injured (and probably dead) supporters pockets were picked whilst they were lying on the pitch.

Ultimately I will admit that there were other factors that day, yes South Yorkshire Police made mistakes (although the officer on the gate was left in an impossible situation), yes the Leppings Lane End was a risk (Leeds fans I know that went to the same fixture v Coventry in 87 felt very unsafe), but to clear all Liverpool fans of the blame is absolutely shocking, and in my own opinion has only been done to shut them up and put this horrible tragedy to bed, however I'm now expecting the families, and all of their distant non-existent relatives to start putting forward their cases to their lawyers, there's going to be a lot of very rich Scousers in the not too distant future me thinks, and I'm not talking lottery winners.

[Mexicano Rojo]

Fuck me you're a bitter twat

[westyorksnffc]

Fuck me you're a bitter twat

As I said, I was there that day, You'd be bitter if you witnessed what I witnessed, I didn't go back to a game at Hillsborough for years, mainly because of the mental scars, the images from that day still firmly cemented in my mind, but the fact that yet again ALL Liverpool fans (and yes, I appreciate it is only a small minority) have been exonerated is quite simply mind-boggling to say the least.

[thedarkprince]

Fuck me you're a bitter twat

Taking his story at face value, you could understand why he might not be happy with how this has now been spun in favour of the fans. If of course it is true.

[PetsWinPrizes]

Okay then, from somebody who was there that day, I have to say this whole report is nothing more than utter bollox, it says that at 2.39pm there was a tannoy announcement outside the Leppings Lane end asking for fans to stop pushing, yet the fans "were not to blame", what a complete and utter load of tosh. At around 2.45pm, as I walked past the Leppings Lane end the crowds outside were huge, and as clear as day I remember a load of mouthy Scouse blokes steaming past some mates of theirs and clearly shouting "come on, we're going to try and get in", now try and disect that statement all you want, but to me that still says ticketless fans trying to force their way in.

Another part of the report says "there was an abnormally large amount of supporters in the concourse prior to kick-off". Well of course there was, it was an FA Cup Semi Final, not Sheffield Wednesday v Luton Town, you've only got to look at any large following away from home in an older style ground for fans to see "an abnormally large amount of supporters in the concourse prior to kick-off", and no doubt a lot of those people were drinking, hence the reason why they were there and not on the terrace (we've all done it).

Oh, and let's test the dead for alcohol, hang on a minute, this were the innocent lot, the reason they died is because they got in earlier than most, hence the reason why they were at the front, it was the wankers at the back that crushed the poor sods.

All this report has done is given the Scousers more ammunition, they're innocent after-all, the report says so, and that idiot Cameron has just won a blue vote in the red half of Merseyside by issuing an apology, but lets be honest, Heysel - not Liverpool's fault, it was the Chelsea skinheads; Athens in 2007 - innocent Liverpool fans having their tickets nicked off them by ticketless Liverpool fans (this is true, the amount of callers on to 5Live after that game was immense), and as Wrighty as alluded to, the Carling Cup final last season too.

And going back to Hillsborough, let us not forget the Liverpool fans on the halfway line goading us Forest fans, and the fact that a lot of the injured (and probably dead) supporters pockets were picked whilst they were lying on the pitch.

Ultimately I will admit that there were other factors that day, yes South Yorkshire Police made mistakes (although the officer on the gate was left in an impossible situation), yes the Leppings Lane End was a risk (Leeds fans I know that went to the same fixture v Coventry in 87 felt very unsafe), but to clear all Liverpool fans of the blame is absolutely shocking, and in my own opinion has only been done to shut them up and put this horrible tragedy to bed, however I'm now expecting the families, and all of their distant non-existent relatives to start putting forward their cases to their lawyers, there's going to be a lot of very rich Scousers in the not too distant future me thinks, and I'm not talking lottery winners.

Even if that was true, and it contradicts every eye witness  I've read and heard for years, not just yesterday, it doesn't explain the horrendous response once the crush had occurred.


Was it the Liverpool fans who ignored the pleas of the trapped to open the pen?

Was it the Liverpool fans who allowed just one Ambulance on the pithc?

Was it the Liverpool fans who set the arbitary 3.15 cut off for evdience at the original inquest

Was it the Liverpool fans who changed Police statements?

etc etc etc

[westyorksnffc]

Taking his story at face value, you could understand why he might not be happy with how this has now been spun in favour of the fans. If of course it is true.

Believe you me it's true, this isn't some personal smear campaign against Liverpool fans, I feel for the families of the deceased, I really do, in exactly the same way that I feel for the families of those that died at Valley Parade in 1986, but I, like many other Forest fans that were there that day really cannot believe that those fans outside the ground have been effectively found not guilty.  I refer you to two pieces from yesterdays report relating to activities outside Leppings Lane between 2.42pm and 2.48pm:-

14.42.36
14.42.44
. . e r . g n t ns
; / " J u r at i :
TB 2/A/PART 4
NUMATIC
1 HOUR
P a rt 4 Commences. Leppings Lane T u r n s t i l e s A
A l s o i n time l a p s e .
Heavy crowd o u t s i d e T u r n s t i l e s
Mounted O f f i c e r s i n c e n t re of p i c t u r e .
Shows s h ot of y o u t hs p u s h i ng towards T u r n s t i l e from l e f t of
s h o t. Mounted Sergeant a t t e m p t i ng to ease crowd back.
Youth b e i ng c a r r i e d by O f f i c e r i n t o ground v i a Gate 'C
D i s t a n t s h ot showing crowds o u t s i d e T u r n s t i l e s and i n
Leppings Lane.
D i s t a n t s h ot of youths c l i m b i n g onto T u r n s t i l e b l o c k.
C l o se up shot of youths c l i m b i n g onto T u r n s t i l e b l o c k,
above Gate 'B'.

and

1 4 . 4 4 . 2 3
1 4 . 4 5 . 0 6
1 4 . 4 6 . 0 8
i 4 . 4 6 . 1 7
1 4 . 4 6 . 3 2
1 4 . 4 7 . 0 2
1 4 . 4 7 . 1 2
1 4 . 4 7 . 2 5
1 4 . 4 7 . 2 0
14 . 4 8 . 0 0
1 4 . 4 8 . 1 3
TB 2/A/PART 4
NUMATIC
1 HOUR
Youths c l i m b i n g over 'B' Gate.
G e n e r al views of A - G, Leppings Lane, Gate C.
10 Youths on r o of of A - G T u r n s t i l e s .
More youths on r o of of A - G T u r n s t i l e s b l o c k.
View of g a te C and o u t s i d e Leppings Lane.
Youths s t a r t to jump down of r o o f.
S l i g h t problems at T u r n s t i l e s , v e ry slow f l ow through A - G .
P e r i m e t er Gates s t i l i appear c l o s e .
C l o s e r on c l o s e d P e r i m e t er g a t e s.
C l o se up c l o s e d p e r i m e t er g a t e s.
Stream of youths p o u r i ng over r o o f .
Gates open - " E j e c t i o n " .
P o u r i ng through Gate 'C i n t o compound.

Can't blame the fans though can we?

[thedarkprince]

Even if that was true, and it contradicts every eye witness  I've read and heard for years, not just yesterday...

And you've read all 450,000+ pages so know this for a fact?

[westyorksnffc]

Even if that was true, and it contradicts every eye witness  I've read and heard for years, not just yesterday, it doesn't explain the horrendous response once the crush had occurred.


Was it the Liverpool fans who ignored the pleas of the trapped to open the pen?

Was it the Liverpool fans who allowed just one Ambulance on the pithc?

Was it the Liverpool fans who set the arbitary 3.15 cut off for evdience at the original inquest

Was it the Liverpool fans who changed Police statements?

etc etc etc

See my post above, none of that would have taken place had fans not turned up in numbers outside the ground, and had South Yorkshire Police actually policed the areas outside the ground properly.

[PetsWinPrizes]

And you've read all 450,000+ pages so know this for a fact?

Know what for a fact? No I haven't read the whole thing, and I don’t think that I suggested that at all.

To be clear I meant that  I’ve read a lot of first hand accounts of Hilsborough over the years, and not just from Liverpool fans.