finally justice for the 96?

[thedarkprince]

Thinking about it, now that the fans are officially blameless, where do we stand on the issue of safe standing? Surely the Taylor report is now irrelevant?

I haven't read the report, not have I seen/heard that much of the coverage on this (travelling most of the day), but when there is a crush taking place aren't there usually a set o people doing the pushing? Does that not mean that the Liverpool fans are a culpable even if only in a small part?

[Flashheart]

I think what DMR is trying to say is that the grief junkies, of which there are many, have in a sense hijacked the situation to a degree and for that reason he is a tad meh about the whole thing. 

I feel the same way to a degree and I'm sure I'm not the only one but the doesn't mean we disrespect those people that lost their lives or their families. Nor does it mean we disrespect the people that have fought to get this far and neither do we have a single bad intention toward anybody that has genuine feelings about this.

For me it's ironic that this followed 9/11. I was close to posting in the twitter thread about people asking for RT's 'out of respect for those who died in 9/11'. How on earth could an RT show respect for the 9/11 victims?

If you have real feelings about Hillsborough then furry muff but you'll probably find that most of those making the most noise on social media would have forgotten all about it within the week.

[thedarkprince]

Maybe those supporters who forced in without tickets should shoulder the blame, oh wait couldn't possibly be that.
It is sad that 96 lost their lives but the whole of that club & fan base always demands sympathy for one thing or another..but it's never their fault.

I agree in some small part with the sentiment of this post although definitely not the provocative way you've written it.

It seems people are now using this to re-write history (sound familiar?) in the favour of the fans. They are partly responsible whether they want to admit it or not.

[ghanimah]

I agree in some small part with the sentiment of this post although definitely not the provocative way you've written it.

It seems people are now using this to re-write history (sound familiar?) in the favour of the fans. They are partly responsible whether they want to admit it or not.

Despite the fact the fans have been completely exonerated in (now 2) official reports  

[DRS]

This ticketless drunk fan argument is starting to get on my fucking nerves,TWO reports have shown this to be false,it was the negligence of the police that rounded the fans up outside the gates causing a rush and it was the police who opened the gates for them to go.Bet the ignorant cunts happy to keep peddling this shit have not read 1 page of the report

[thedarkprince]

This ticketless drunk fan argument is starting to get on my fucking nerves,TWO reports have shown this to be false,it was the negligence of the police that rounded the fans up outside the gates causing a rush and it was the police who opened the gates for them to go.Bet the ignorant cunts happy to keep peddling this shit have not read 1 page of the report

As I stated in my first post on this... I'll go away, have a read, and get back to you.

[thedarkprince]

Serious question: have Liverpool, and their fans, used Hillsbrough as a way to absolve themselves of responsibility for Heysel?

A number of reports, inquests, etc have concluded that "sole" responsibility lay with the Liverpool fans who charged the Juventus fans. Or does this get put down to the stadium's poor state of repair, inept policing, etc?

Someone on the first page mentioned that the "holier than thou" attitude gets on their nerves so will be interested to hear what the people who have shot down DMR, and others, have to say.

[Huwwy]

I think its easy for fans of a certain age to empaphise. As Chalky above says football fans back then were treated with nothing but complete and utter contempt - the lowest of the low. The police could do whatever they wanted to do with you and the magistrates would back them up - you had no rights, you were a worthless piece of shit, you were sub human, you were gulity of whatever a copper said you did, even if you had witnessess to the contrary. The police were unaccountable. There were no mobile phones, less cameras etc so it was your word against theirs.
This institutionalised contempt manifested itself in Hillsborough and the lying, cheating cowards tried to cover it up by playing the football scum card. Talk about having your cake and eating it.
I won't replay the events but virtually all football fans knew what went on. A friend of mine was in the Forest end and thney could see what was going no and tried to get on the pitch to help and was baton charged. He lives with this every day  being so near yet being unable to help. Seeing people die in front of his eyes.
If you're a football fan of a certain age, it could have been you. I can remember numerous occasions with Town where I struggled to breathe, Mansfield, Luton, The Scum. Any of these could have been a Hillsborough but they weren't.
I admire Hicks, I admire any of the families, i admire the people at the game - they've got to live with this every day. The uselless pieces of shit who have escaped punishment (Dukenfield etc) probably live in a world of hell caused by their cowardly, inhumane arrogance and contempt for their fellow man.
I want this talked about in 100 years so as we don't have another one. Its like i still want all Nazis hunted down until their final breath.
I hope this gives some semblance of closure to the families but I doubt it.
 And Mex - as for safe standing, maybe it can't be reintroduced because the police can't be trusted not because the fans can't behave.

 

Absolutely spot on. It was an event of its time-the dark days when if you went to football you must be a hooligan or up to no good, your rights were almost non existent and you deserved all you got from the police. Easily forgotten nowadays, and perhaps it's harder for younger fans to grasp exactly how shit those times were for football supporters. You still turned up and accepted you would be treated like shit but, on that day, it suddenly seemed that you weren't even guaranteed to come home from watching a game. It seems a bit dramatic to say that now, but I know that was what many of us and our families thought in the immediate aftermath. I for one am glad the truth is out and I hope it will help the families move on.

[Flashheart]

Serious question: have Liverpool, and their fans, used Hillsbrough as a way to absolve themselves of responsibility for Heysel?

Are you sure that's a serious question?

Fuck it, past my bedtime!

[jonny72]

I'm somewhat confused by the way some people are reacting to the release of the papers. I haven't read anything that contradicts the main findings of the Taylor report, ie the cause and contributing factors of the disaster.

The Taylor report blamed the Police and other authorities, it didn't blame the fans at all. So why are some people now claiming the fans have been cleared of any blame? What blame? There never was any.

The same for there not being any one single cause. There was a catastrophic sequence of events, starting some time before the day of the game, that led to the disaster.

Anyone passing comment really needs to read the Taylor report first to get their facts straight.

[chalkies_shorts]

There's no doubt Liverpool fans have got to take a large share of the blame for Heysel but so have UEFA who chose an unsafe ground to hold the game. I slso think the policing was inept particularly with the Juventus fan waving a gun around.
As for Hillsborough, I don't know how any one can blame the Scousers. You needed to be around in those days to appreciate it because fans pushing and shoving happenned at virtually every big game. There's fuck all chance the Scousers would have had a fucking clue to the consequences of the pushing and shoving. Also, don't forget the police were corralling the fans and they didn't fuck about in those days - if you didn't shift you'd bet a baton around your back or arse. It was simply inept, arrogant, contempt of football fans - pure and simple.

[DRS]

Wasnt a pop at you prince.In regards to heysel despite what many would have you believe liverpool did say sorry and do a memorial every year,the liverpool echo also published a front page apology.Again not directed at you but i dont think it is about heysel it is about the british public being led to believe that this was down to yobs who caused all this.Heysel was violence simple as that

[jonny72]

I haven't read the report, not have I seen/heard that much of the coverage on this (travelling most of the day), but when there is a crush taking place aren't there usually a set o people doing the pushing? Does that not mean that the Liverpool fans are a culpable even if only in a small part?

No.

The central pens were full and were not closed as they should have been. So fans coming in to the ground went to the central pens, not knowing they were full and what was going to happen. If the central pens had been closed and fans directed to the other pens (which had plenty of space) the disaster would have been averted or at minimum a lot less lives lost.

But as per my other post, the failure to not close the central pens was just one in a long line of mistakes and failings.

[jonny72]

Serious question: have Liverpool, and their fans, used Hillsbrough as a way to absolve themselves of responsibility for Heysel?

A number of reports, inquests, etc have concluded that "sole" responsibility lay with the Liverpool fans who charged the Juventus fans. Or does this get put down to the stadium's poor state of repair, inept policing, etc?

I read an article written by Kenny Dalglish on the Heysel disaster. He pretty much said there was absolutely zero blame to be attached to the Liverpool fans and that everyone else was to blame instead.

[herthab]

Serious question: have Liverpool, and their fans, used Hillsbrough as a way to absolve themselves of responsibility for Heysel?

A number of reports, inquests, etc have concluded that "sole" responsibility lay with the Liverpool fans who charged the Juventus fans. Or does this get put down to the stadium's poor state of repair, inept policing, etc?

Someone on the first page mentioned that the "holier than thou" attitude gets on their nerves so will be interested to hear what the people who have shot down DMR, and others, have to say.

What the fuck are you on about? Heysel? At Heysel, pissed up Liverpool fans caused the death of Juventus supporters, aided by inept policing and a ground that was crumbling, all that is true, but what has that got to do with 96 Liverpool fans, many children, who died as a direct result of incompetent policing? Should people feel less sympathy for the families of those who died because some fans of the club they supported caused a earlier tragedy?

I'm no 'grief junkie' as someone succintly put it, but fuck me, there's some right arseholes spouting shit about an event where 96 INNOCENT people lost their lives. For their families to have to wait 23 years for the full story to be revealed and those responsible to be identified, is fucking shameful.