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Author Topic: New Town Boss to be Announced Next Wednesday  (Read 60084 times)
chalkies_shorts

« Reply #210 on: Friday, May 13, 2011, 23:21:23 »

At the end of the day we're a Div 4 outfit. Unless we go for the untested we're going to atttract Scummers, paedos, fascists, alcys, usless fucks etc. If they weren't one of those things they'd probably be operating at a higher level.
I must admit to being completely underwhelemed by the names mentioned and would happilly go with Trollope or the untested route - if we're gonig for the latter then I'd rather take a punt on Zippy ( one of ours ) than someone else.
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Lumps

« Reply #211 on: Friday, May 13, 2011, 23:39:17 »

Did hitler ever score a bicycle volley with both feet off the ground though?

I see him more as a niggly little full back to be honest. Sort of a Gary Neville with a more shit tach
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Lumps

« Reply #212 on: Friday, May 13, 2011, 23:49:00 »

Think the difference is that you've come to the conclussion that Di Canio = Fascist = Mussolini and others haven't.

My take is that he grew up with the Ultra's, still has a connection with them, made an arm gesture that they use a few times to them as a result and has an interest in Mussolini. I don't see him being a fascist as relevant as there are many interpretations of fascism, especially today, and I've seen nothing to suggest he supports any of the extreme elements of fascism that were present under Mussolini.

If you've got anything to back up the claim that he's just as bad as the Nazi's then share it and change our minds.

This is an example of the kind of self justifying bollocks I was referring to to be honest. He didn't just "make an arm gesture" he's sat in a chair for some hours to have fascist symbols tattoo'd on his body. Goggle his name and 2 or 3 of the entries on the first page of results will take you to articvles in which he's is prefectly clear that he considers himself a fascist.

But I suppose as long as he's not a supporter of one of those "extreme elements of fascism" but instead goes for that well known moderate strand of fascism (WTF!) that's alright.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,403442,00.html

If that sort of shit is alright with you lot I'm ashamed to support the same cub as you frankly.
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pauld
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« Reply #213 on: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 00:03:58 »

Think the difference is that you've come to the conclussion that Di Canio = Fascist = Mussolini and others haven't.

My take is that he grew up with the Ultra's, still has a connection with them, made an arm gesture that they use a few times to them as a result and has an interest in Mussolini. I don't see him being a fascist as relevant as there are many interpretations of fascism, especially today, and I've seen nothing to suggest he supports any of the extreme elements of fascism that were present under Mussolini.

If you've got anything to back up the claim that he's just as bad as the Nazi's then share it and change our minds.
You've probably missed (understandably, given the huge swathe of stuff about this) the bits I posted in one of the many subsections of multiple threads where this was discussed about who he's saluting with the fascist salute - the Lazio Ultras. Who do explicitly and regularly identify with Mussolini; hold aloft banners adorned with swastikas, Totenkopf and other explicitly Nazi symbols; there's a photo I posted somewhere of them holding a pretty much stand-wide banner saying "Auschwitz your country, the oven your home"; they had a long infatuation with Arkan, one of the most brutal ethnic cleansers of the Balkan Wars (and held aloft banners mourning his death at several games) because they too were at the time engaged in their own minor but nasty street wars with Albanian immigrants. He admits himself that he came from the Lazio Ultras and these were the people he was saluting as his "camerati" (the Italian term used deliberately to denote members of Mussolini's Fascist movement).

It's simply not credible that this was some Gazza-flute-playing style act of crass ignorance. He knows full well what the Lazio Ultras and their fascist/neo-Nazi tendencies are about because that is where he, by his own admission, comes from. The idea that in saluting these openly neo-Nazi hooligans with a fascist/Nazi salute he was "just" saluting some notional "fluffy fascist" sub-section is laughable. He knows full well what the Lazio Ultras are and has repeatedly and publicly saluted them, even after he was made to attend a meeting with a Holocaust survivor as part of Lazio's/his agent's attempts to repair the damage caused by his salutes, while his manager said that "erm, yeah, the Ultras waving swastikas about is probably going a bit far", Di Canio made no comment on his beloved Ultras regular display of Nazi iconography but just said while he was opposed to the whole Jew-killing thing, the meeting hadn't changed his mind on his core beliefs. Might have been, had he had any misgivings about his mates waving swastikas, Totenkopfs, references to Auschwitz and Arkan etc to say "I'm more of a fluffy fascist lads, perhaps tone it down a bit on the murderous racist angle, eh?"

It doesn't really add up to the "Lib Dem wing of Fascism" picture he's (apparently quite successfully) spun to the international sports media while simultaneously keeping up the snarling fascist image for the lads back home does it?

It's a judgement call really which side of the fence you see it as sitting. He's clearly an endorser, and arguably active advocate, of Fascism. Which I'd kind of view as being a bad thing in it's own right. But there is no direct evidence that Di Canio personally endorses the Holocaust or the clearly neo-Nazi views of the peers he so warmly endorses. There's more than enough that any other public figure would be running a mile to distance themselves from if they weren't trying to tread a one face one way, one face the other line as he clearly is.

Bangkok Red has, quite cogently, argued that we should take his words ("I'm a fascist not a racist" and calling Mussolini "vile") at face value. I and Lumps and others feel that his actions (and lack of actions e.g. over not taking the very clear opportunity to condemn the display of swastikas at Lazio games as his manager did) speak far louder than soft spin dressed up for the foreign press.

And all of that is, to a large extent, an academic discussion of what lies in whatever the fuck passes for Di Canio's soul. Which, astonishing as it may seem, I don't give a fuck about really. What I do give a fuck about is the name and character of our club. Which if people could pull their heads out of the "How many points are we going to get next season?" sand would see will be very badly damaged by our association, and hence perceived endorsement, of a man like this.

As I've said repeatedly elsewhere, the same would apply if he was an open supporter (but not practitioner) of Al Qaeda or turned up to press conferences wearing a Pol Pot T-Shirt. Loads of people in seeking to ignore or downplay his open fascism and clear endorsement of neo-Nazi hooligans have tried to play the "Shouldn't bring politics into sport" line. I'd completely agree. Which is precisely why Di Canio is not a suitable candidate for our manager. Because he did. Not those of us who are objecting to him once he has done.

« Last Edit: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 00:09:10 by pauld » Logged
pauld
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« Reply #214 on: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 00:06:18 »

I see him more as a niggly little full back to be honest. Sort of a Gary Neville with a more shit tach
I'm sorry, I'd count myself as every single bit as anti-fascist as you, but there's some things I just can't let go. Gary Neville's tache is far, far worse than any other tache ever. Even Hitler's. It's not even a fucking tache for Christ's sake
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« Reply #215 on: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 00:23:14 »

There's no denying the extreme views of the Lazio Ultra's, or that he has a bond with them from his youth. But that doesn't necessarily mean he agrees with those views and he appears to have stated on numerous occasions that he doesn't. The arm gestures were dumb, the tattoos not much better and he could have distanced himself further from the extreme element.

Going back to my point about what fascism means today, I still haven't found a clear definition let alone one that could be viewed as the consensus. If I've missed something please point me in the right direction. There are extreme views of all political ideologies (Labour with the "militant" element and to a lesser degree the trade unions for example) but it doesn't mean that everyone of that persuasion agrees with them.

I suspect he does veer towards the nasty end of fascism but I've seen no evidence to prove it so far and until I do I'll give him the benefit of doubt. Though if he does get the job and pulls any stupid shit I'll be the first to call for him to be sacked.
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Lumps

« Reply #216 on: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 00:26:47 »

What he PD said. He's right about Nevilles tach as well.

One last thing and I'm done. The man attends a meeting with a holocaust survivor begging him and his team not to support those displaying nazi iconography, (see the link I just posted) and when questioned by the press on his way out his reaction isn't to express his regret at the offence these things and his behaviour might have caused to this man, but to trot out some self justifying bollocks about the actions of the communist partizans, and basically say it's unfair that it's only the fascists that get a hard time about atrocities in WW2.

Fuck him. He's a complete c u n t. I'm only sorry that word is used so often on here now that it no longer expresses the contempt I have for the man.
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pauld
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« Reply #217 on: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 00:35:10 »

There's no denying the extreme views of the Lazio Ultra's, or that he has a bond with them from his youth. But that doesn't necessarily mean he agrees with those views and he appears to have stated on numerous occasions that he doesn't.
So why then salute them with an explicitly fascist and at best ambiguous Nazi salute and refer to them as his "camerati"? Like I say, he appears to want to have it both ways and his extremely mealy-mouthed words are undermined by his actions (and omissions). Come on, if this was any other public figure, or even a candidate for manager of another club, you'd be fucking slaughtering him. Just because he wants to use us as a leg-up to getting the West Ham job, people are falling over themselves to excuse the twat.
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sheepshagger
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« Reply #218 on: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 03:21:45 »

sorry Paul and Lumps - to me your arguments just don't cut it....

No-one has spent years slaughtering PDC because he has never bought any "disrepute" to any of the clubs he has played for in England !

You can try to taint him like the devil all you like but for me you are both going massively over the top about it

Just my opinion like....
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pauld
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« Reply #219 on: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 07:53:17 »

Sheepy, fair enough. He didn't come out until after he left England to go back to Italy so the question of whether him as an openly out fascist would damage a club's reputation hasn't been answered (obviously it wouldn't damage Lazio's as they're all fascists to start off with).
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« Reply #220 on: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 08:12:10 »

Just read in the paper that The GMB union have threatened to sever sponsorship ties If we appoint Di Canio. Not sure if it's right or not, but what on earth does the GMB have anything to do with us?
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« Reply #221 on: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 08:13:57 »

They sponsor mark scott and allow us to use their banqueting facilities (for free I think, I can't remember)
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« Reply #222 on: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 08:20:32 »

They sponsor mark scott and allow us to use their banqueting facilities (for free I think, I can't remember)
Other way round - they hire our conference facilities several times a year. Don't think the GMB has "banqueting facilities" Smiley
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« Reply #223 on: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 08:36:51 »

It's not Lawrie Sanchez, appointed Barnet manager. Bit unlucky for Grazioli.

Grazioli was never actually manager he was head coach and Sanchez was always in charge fo team affairs with Graz taking the coaching side, Sanchez has been with Barnet since Martin Allen left as Consultant DOF/Manager and Graz as head coach/caretaker.

So no surprise at all.
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« Reply #224 on: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 08:40:01 »

Going back to my point about what fascism means today, I still haven't found a clear definition let alone one that could be viewed as the consensus. If I've missed something please point me in the right direction. There are extreme views of all political ideologies.

You won't. Historically fascism doesn't have a central book, theory or even proper doctrine or ideology. Its nation of origin defines it. Italian fascism was more corporatist, perhaps syndacalist (I've never studied it). Nazism was obviously rascist/anti-semetic as well as ultra-nationalist and British fascism of the 1930s was probably the most considered and thought out of them all (also it wasn't anti-semetic at first - not by ideology anyway). Read most fascist literature of the inter-war years and what you get is rhetoric and little policy, what there is will be local and timebound. What unites it all is nationalism, a hatred of the left and feminism and a belief that their nation is superior to all others -be that culturally, commercial, racially etc. 

Fascism generally doesn't attract thinkers, more doers, so it is really defined by what it is against rather than for. Oh and fascism is always extreme, there are no extremist fascists as they all are.

-I'm not restarting the Di Canio debate, just answering a question.
« Last Edit: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 09:13:39 by A Gent Orange » Logged
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