Finally...a man who stands up and says what a lot of people really think

[oxford_fan]

You've just proven, by that statement, that you still think that the current establishment can set us out of the pit of shit, they've contrived to get us into

Bullshit! Like I said, its a choice of the lesser of two evils. Engage your brain and stop presuming.

[Talk Talk]

That is complete and utter total bollocks, and I can talk from experience.

Spouting so much crap really doesn't do your argument any good, in fact it totally negates it.

Really? How do you respond to the following then, which is factual:

A WINDOW cleaner from Melksham has been jailed for 30 days for failing to pay his council tax.

Alan Leighfield, 57, from Union Street was sent to HMP Bristol (Horfield) on Tuesday after he had failed to pay his outstanding debts despite receiving a suspended prison sentence from Chippenham Magistrates' Court in June.

Mr Leighfield had been sentenced for failing to pay £3,161.89 in council tax but the sentence was suspended providing he pay his arrears off at a rate of £25 per week. He however failed to meet these repayment arrangement as directed by the court.

Cllr Roy While, the district council’s finance portfolio holder, said: “Help is available for anyone who has genuine difficulties in paying their council tax.

"However, we will take action when people wilfully do not pay their council tax, and the courts have shown that they view such behaviour very seriously.

“West Wiltshire District Council continues to actively pursue unpaid council tax and takes steps to trace charge payers who move away from properties without ensuring that any unpaid council tax is settled.”

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/search/4047381.Window_cleaner_jailed_over_tax/

Aldershot Magistrates sentenced a Lindford man to 41 days in prison at a court held for Council Tax non-payers on Wednesday 21 November.

Richard Castle (30) of Windsor Walk, Lindford, formerly of Bordon, was sentenced for non-payment of Council Tax arrears totalling £2,237.58. He had been given a suspended prison sentence at an earlier court hearing to give him the opportunity to settle the debt in instalments at the rate of £100 a month. Mr Castle made only two payments, leaving the magistrates with little option but to impose the sentence.

At the same hearing a further two non-payers received prison sentences, suspended while regular payments are made to settle the arrears.

Mr Richard East (49) of Longmoor Road, Liphook, was sentenced to 45 days for non-payment of £4,326.56 Council Tax. He was ordered to pay £400 per month.

Mr Michael Rolfe (34) of Ducklands, Bordon, was sentenced to 40 days for non-payment of £1,973.28 Council Tax. He was ordered to pay £12.50 per week.

Brian Wood, East Hampshire District Council's Revenues Manager, said "The Council will use every means available to collect outstanding Council Tax and Business Rates, but would prefer to deal with these matters without resorting to court action. However, if the Council has been unable to collect the charge through all other means, committal proceedings will be taken, which could result in a prison sentence."

http://62.254.234.164/ehdc/newsandvacancies.nsf/0/4810CC2EE27696E28025739C003450C8?OpenDocument

Income tax

If you have arrears of income tax, you should contact HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) as soon as possible.
If you don't pay your income tax, or don't come to an arrangement with HMRC to pay off the arrears, the consequences could be very serious. HMRC might:

• apply to the magistrates' court if your arrears are £2000 or under. The court will send you a summons. This is an order to make you go to court for a hearing where they will usually order you to pay back the arrears and costs. If you pay before the hearing, no further action will be taken against you. However they do have the power to send you to prison for non-payment of the arrears but this isn't common unless you ignore the summons. The magistrates' court can't be used if your arrears are more than one year overdue

•come to your home to take away your belongings and sell them to raise money for the arrears. HMRC officers are not allowed to force their way into your home but if they can't get in without force, they may apply to the magistrates' court for a warrant which will allow them to break in. This is very unusual

•make a claim in the county court against you. If you don't pay, this will make it difficult for you to get credit in the future and also they can then take further steps against you, so you could even end up losing your family home
• if you've been in arrears for some time or owe £750 or more, issue a statutory demand. This is the first stage of making you bankrupt. If you’re made bankrupt, you can lose your family home. If you get a statutory demand from HMRC, get help from an expert debt adviser straight away.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/d_income_tax_arrears.pdf

I'm spouting crap, eh?

[Simon Pieman]

I wonder how many would contribute as much towards an alternative service, if it was run well and was run on a purely a voluntary donation basis?

[Talk Talk]

I wonder how many would contribute as much towards an alternative service, if it was run well and was run on a purely a voluntary donation basis?

I thought you were not playing any more? 

[stfctownenda]

The amounts outstanding for these people are huge though, would some of them not have paid council tax for a couple of years? even then they are offered installment plans to help and they still don't pay it.  Its hard to argue against punnishment for people who don't even pay when there is help given to them.

[Spencer_White]

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

[Talk Talk]

The amounts outstanding for these people are huge though, would some of them not have paid council tax for a couple of years? even then they are offered installment plans to help and they still don't pay it.  Its hard to argue against punishment for people who don't even pay when there is help given to them.

But that is irrelevant to the argument. The thesis was that is you refuse to pay your taxes then the state will use force against you and you will end up in prison. Which those quotes prove is the truth.

Instalment plans, suspended sentences/second chances are neither here nor there - they are second chances that you are given to cough up. The bottom line is if you don't then you end up in gaol. Which yes, is punishment.

[Simon Pieman]

I thought you were not playing any more? 

Don't think I ever stated that. Besides, I think my last point was quite poignant and valid. There will always be people unhappy with whatever system is in place and unwilling to fund it. The taxation system, however unfair it is at least ensures people pay.

[Talk Talk]

Don't think I ever stated that. Besides, I think my last point was quite poignant and valid. There will always be people unhappy with whatever system is in place and unwilling to fund it. The taxation system, however unfair it is at least ensures people pay.

Then don't have 'a system'.

You don't really understand this anarchy stuff yet... 

[sheepshagger]

But that is irrelevant to the argument. The thesis was that is you refuse to pay your taxes then the state will use force against you and you will end up in prison. Which those quotes prove is the truth.

Instalment plans, suspended sentences/second chances are neither here nor there - they are second chances that you are given to cough up. The bottom line is if you don't then you end up in gaol. Which yes, is punishment.

But funnily enough Violence was NEVER mentioned in those articles......

And the fact is that these people chose not to pay.  They went to "prison" for a couple of weeks, and are then set free. 

Therefore your argument is wrong.  They CHOSE not to pay, there was no violence, they didn't pay.

Hmmmm......

[Mexicano Rojo]

With a full pay packet you would be free to buy those services on the open market. Why do you insist that the state is the only method of providing any services? They aren't. And they do it all very badly. Schools, healthcare, education. You name it. Everything they touch turns to crap.

You can't say it isn't an option without factual proof.

so lets take your arguement in regards to the health service. closest to your libetarian utopia would be usa. health care is so expensive that even with my substantial wage packet i would now be dead as i couldnt afford $600 a week to pay for dialysis treatment.

so where does that fit in within your state? people with long term illnesses die?

[Talk Talk]

But funnily enough Violence was NEVER mentioned in those articles......

And the fact is that these people chose not to pay.  They went to "prison" for a couple of weeks, and are then set free. 

Therefore your argument is wrong.  They CHOSE not to pay, there was no violence, they didn't pay.

Hmmmm......

Violence as in the use of force against the person. Being forcibly detained and having your freedom removed is violence.

[Talk Talk]

so lets take your arguement in regards to the health service. closest to your libetarian utopia would be usa. health care is so expensive that even with my substantial wage packet i would now be dead as i couldnt afford $600 a week to pay for dialysis treatment.

so where does that fit in within your state? people with long term illnesses die?

The USA is not definitely not libertarian and nowhere near 'utopia'. There is huge government intervention in the health care system that skews the market enormously. Not surprisingly. The Medicare and Medicaid programs ensure that the private medicine overcharges the state and can get away with it and increases the health care costs (and insurance) for everybody.

[Simon Pieman]

Then don't have 'a system'.

You don't really understand this anarchy stuff yet... 

So how do you propose people like Mex pay for their dialysis?

Speaking as someone who's family has previously been affected by the postcode lottery (what a fucking joke that is) and knows how expensive some medical treatment (well all of it actually) can be, I just can't imagine how much worse off things would be without an organised heath structure. And before it is mentioned, I'm not happy with the NHS but compared to the alternatives I think it is a marvelous thing.

[normy]

Enjoyed the debate talktalk. Anarchy, in general, is to me is a scary ideal which we are not ready to try, if ever. "Ordinary people" , simplistically, are firstly looking for the basics in their lives.For example, security against crime and violence, a good place to live and possibly bring up a family, health care, and adequate food and drink. Maslow's hierarchy of needs comes to mind.
Money is needed for all these, so you need a paid job, or be self-employed. Some of us are not suited to be self-employed, which needs various qualities which I liken to survival of the fittest in a way. I am not capable of  earning enough from setting up my own business to pay for protection against other businessmen engaged in what was once known as "crime", a home, illness treatment which might still be ruinously expensive, and all the other essentials. There are many like me IMO.
Therefore, I need to work for someone else. No Government, no Local Council, no Civil Service, no Quangos. Sounds idyllic, but they provided about 50% of jobs. Would private individuals or groups replicate these services/jobs? Or would they all be swept away with "x" replacements?
Private firms have recently often tended to provide worse salaries benefits and pensions, they rip people off, thet can take over and monopolise what would stop them? One example. My  water supply is owned by a German company. I have no choice to change to another. Theoretically, if there were no controls, they could charge what they liked, unless "someone" organised a violent takeover of the facility, when we are back to "rulers" again. A rambling argument perhaps, I look forward to you demolishing it!