'Who's snuffed it now?'

[Peter Venkman]

Someone said recently, "Anyone who thinks Messi is the greatest of all time is too young to have seen Maradonna play"

I would say, anyone who thinks Maradonna is the greatest, is too young to have seen Pele...

This 100%.

You can only judge a players ability versus the players he plays with or against and Pele was head and shoulders above everyone else back then.

Not like Maradonna and Messi who are a fair bit better than the rest Pele was way way above everyone else at that time he was playing.

[Bogus Dave]

I don’t think you can crown a greatest of all time in any genre (save for absolute anomaly’s like Wayne Gretzky, for example) - there’s too much difference in eras. Things like fitness, tactics, even the rules themselves make it to difficult to compare

That said, the best way to argue it is a quote I remember hearing (maybe even from Pele himself come to think of it, although he might not have been so modest) which was along the lines of “I’m not sure if I’m the best of all time when you compare different eras, but I’d like to think I’m in the conversation”

Fair to say, he’s in the conversation

[Audrey]

You can only be the best of your generation - and he was.

[Jilted John]

I don’t think you can crown a greatest of all time in any genre (save for absolute anomaly’s like Wayne Gretzky, for example) - there’s too much difference in eras. Things like fitness, tactics, even the rules themselves make it to difficult to compare

That said, the best way to argue it is a quote I remember hearing (maybe even from Pele himself come to think of it, although he might not have been so modest) which was along the lines of “I’m not sure if I’m the best of all time when you compare different eras, but I’d like to think I’m in the conversation”

Fair to say, he’s in the conversation

Every younger person dismisses the older generation, when they never experienced it, Pele was the best, no question and yes I have seen them all play. RIP Pele, the greatest footballer that ever lived.

[mystical_goat]

Every younger person dismisses the older generation, when they never experienced it

Not sure this is true - I was born in '85 and one of my first football memories was Baggio missing the penalty at USA '94.

I never saw Maradonna, Pele, Socrates, Bobby Moore, Van Basten, Best, Zico, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Eusebio, etc. etc. play much apart from a few clips here and there, but recognise them as outstanding players and amongst the best to ever do it, along with the ones I have seen - Messi, both Ronaldos, Zidane, Stoichkov, Ronaldinho, Romario, Baresi, Maldini, Weah (thank you Football Italia).

I'm not sure about 'best' but my favourite player to watch that I've seen extensively is probably Zidane. His balance and technique were just incredible. That film where the camera follows just him for a whole Madrid match is absolutely brilliant:

[dalumpimunki]

I love how emphatic people are with their opinions on this, as if any of you have seen the man play for more than a handful of games at world cups, and those probably in highlights.

Very little footage of his club career around so that's a bit of a closed book, but based on international performances was he really that massively better than those he played with? In 1958 Garincha probably player of the tournament. Same in 62 as Pele injured in the second game. Out first round in '66, with Brazil not coping with European teams more physical play.

1970 Pele was definitely the talisman player, but head and shoulders better than Rivelino, Jairzinho, Tostao and Gerson, that made up the attacking 5 with him? Not sure. Way better than the captain Carlos Alberto. Not in 1970 he wasn't. I

It's why I've always rated Maradona higher. I've seen more of him. He did almost impossible things at club level, leading Napoli to Series A titles. Napoli ffs! As well as a UEFA cup and a couple of Italian cups. In the 80s and early 90s when defenders in Series A pretty much had a licence to commit assault.

Those things wouldn't have happened without him. Brazil would have won the 1970 world cup without Pele as they did in 62. That 1970 team was probably the best team ever to play in a world cup competition, it wasn't  dependent on him.

[Qunk]

The way I’ve always looked at it is there is a clear distinction between best and greatest. Best is very hard to define as there are so many variables to take into account. Less so, in my opinion, with greatest. It’s about legacy and recognition. Not necessarily EASY to define, but I would say EASIER.

Ali being my go to example. Not the best by any stretch of the imagination, although he was phenomenally good nonetheless. But I don’t think anybody would claim any other boxer has had the cultural impact that he has had is head and shoulders above any other boxer.

This is slightly off topic but I wrote an article about Ali on the morning he died going over the impact he had. It’s here if anyone is interested enough to read it:

https://www.boxingnews24.com/2016/06/muhammad-ali-greatest-ever-ever-will/

[mystical_goat]

Good points, munki.

Didn't Maradona also basically win the '86 World Cup for Argentina? And then got them to the final in '90 despite carrying an ankle injury and being on the wane (coke) a bit.

When a single player is the driving force behind a big tournament/league win or carries their team much further than they should go, it's some of the best evidence of their genius. Ronaldo getting Portugal to win the Euros was decent but Stoichkov getting Bulgaria to a World Cup semi-final was more amazing.

[mystical_goat]

Ali being my go to example. Not the best by any stretch of the imagination, although he was phenomenally good nonetheless. But I don’t think anybody would claim any other boxer has had the cultural impact that he has had is head and shoulders above any other boxer.

I can't remember too much about what they stand for but wasn't his Nation of Islam period a bit of a blot? This BBC documentary made me see him a bit differently

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0bk0f64/muhammad-ali

[Qunk]

I can't remember too much about what they stand for but wasn't his Nation of Islam period a bit of a blot? This BBC documentary made me see him a bit differently

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0bk0f64/muhammad-ali

I’ll look into that some more. He definitely said some things, especially at the beginning of his career, that were beyond the pale, even in those times. But I think you’d have to take into account the genuine struggles that black people suffered in those times when they civil rights movement was burgeoning. Black people were still massively and openly oppressed. But I don’t know enough about his involvement with the NOI and what that entailed. Pretty sure that even if it’s really bad, he still had a cultural impact that was and is unmatched for a boxer.

[Abrahammer]

Every younger person dismisses the older generation, when they never experienced it, Pele was the best, no question and yes I have seen them all play. RIP Pele, the greatest footballer that ever lived.

“Every” ………..you should generalise a bit more!

Some of the older generation often dismiss the current generation as well, you tend to find that as the memory of the older players fade their ability increases. Similar to when a player leaves Town, a few seasons later their ability whilst with us is sometimes quoted as being drastically different to to what is often was, positively or negatively

[Nomoreheroes]

Joseph Ratzinger aka Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI

[Nomoreheroes]

Barbara Walters (US journalist and news reader)

[Ardiles]

The GOAT debate makes no sense to me.  Who was a better musician - John Lennon or Mozart?  It's a question you'll never be able to answer.  Just need to accept that they were all supremely talented.

[No Longer Posh Red]

The GOAT debate makes no sense to me.  Who was a better musician - John Lennon or Mozart?  It's a question you'll never be able to answer.  Just need to accept that they were all supremely talented.

Exactly this, the thing that most annoys me with football now is the fact that many in the media proclaim the greatest ever as anything since the inception of the premier league.

It was like the Leicester fairytale as the greatest football achievement ever, completely neglecting the fact that a team from not far away did the same & also win two European Cups, something that Man City are still yet to achieve