Thetownend.com

So it seems the truth that most people already realised has finally come to light.

South yorks police fabricating 164 witness statements and doing blood alcohol tests on all the victims even the children! then liaising with the sun over that hideous headline.

people should be fucking jailed for this.

I'm not saying this to get a rise or anything like that this time Mex - I for one don't really care that much. It's almost boring.

Yes, it was a huge miscarriage of justice and OK today it's made (sort of) official - but everyone KNEW that anyway.

It didnt affect me (I'd only just been born) and hand on heart, it makes no odds to me - in fact I find football's collective sense, and especially these Scousers' sense, of entitlement and being holier than thou because of what happened, quite irksome. Fair fucks to them for fighting for justice, but do it with some humility and grace and for the right reasons - not just keep it in the public eye for the sake of it, which is what I've always felt about Trevor Hicks who is a chief campaigner but also a publicity-seeking loudmouth. Maybe he's grieving in public. Dunno.

Similarly - Cameron and co apologising today - why? What the fuck has he got to apologise for?

The shocking aspect is these 164 doctored reports, but anyone who didn't think this happened anyway must be incredibly naive. People should be jailed - maybe they will be - but surely it's time, now the truth is out, to just let it be.

I've not really expressed what I think very well and have rambled a bit but you get the idea. Probably sounds worse than I mean it to.

Sorry.

Agreed, have to say the conclusions don't come as a surprise, but some of the details are somewhat shocking

That response is exactly why the authorities get away with it... let's hope it doesn't happen to you

Dave Cameron has apologised as did Milliband on behalf of their respective parties governments who ignored the glaringly fucking obvious and let families who lost children and loved ones have to be told that they were far from innocent for 23 years.

Surely those who fabricated those witness statements should now be prosecuted for 'fraud' or 'perverting the course of justice.' This whole situation should've been sorted out years ago, not 23 fucking years later. Hopefully now these families can now move on.

The only positive that has come out of this disater is that we're not penned in anymore so we can now avoid this situation from ever happening in this country again.

I always believed it was a tragedy for which all parties were culpable to varying degrees - unsafe ground, surging fans, poor policing, slow/ineffective response. The details of this report make it clear that the authorities are the only ones responsible, and the cover up (long rumoured, finally proven) is disgusting. The editted witness statements, the 3.15 cut-off for survivors, the lies from South Yorks police that were fed to news agencies... all of it pretty shocking. The Sun was tasteless in its reporting, and obviously angered many, but its pieces were based on what was perceived as fact, from sources which should have been trustworthy - i find the lies fed to the media worse that the actual reporting of it.

As for what happens next, criminal charges and stripping of honours (the Sheffield MP who peddled shite is a Knight of the Realm - if that banker bloke can be stripped, he definitely should be!). The Head of S.Yorks police retired on full pension at 46 directly after... he needs to be punished for his role.

If they had a shred of decency this should be the front page tomorrow

[url width=509 height=664]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c116/mexicored/556467_10151871431137662_1967010148_n.jpg[/url]

Was a terrible thing that happened, but that's in the past and nothing can be done about that now.

Here in the present, however, millions of people still continue to buy heinous publications such as the Sun and the Daily Mail and lap up their stories as though it is gospel. It makes one despair.

I will choose my words very carefully here.

I am relieved that all the records have now been made public, and I genuinely hope that families and friends of those that died or were traumatised by the events that day can find a way to come to terms with what happened. My worry is that we will now witness a tidal wave of anger and bitterness, which would be absolutely justified on the part of those individually affected, that will be taken up vicariously by others.

I have a Liverpool supporting friend (perhaps by the end of today ex-friend) who was not there. As far as I am aware none of his family were there and none of his friends were killed or injured. However, he constantly bangs on about Hillsborough, and has put the following statement up on Facebook, which is the sort of thing DMR is referring to:

"To any of my friends who have declared themselves 'bored' with LFC's push for this enquiry into Hillsborough (and there have been a few), and mocked and complained on its anniversary, can I just say that today is the FIRST time anything has been acknowledged, admitted, produced or apologized for. THAT, coupled with the matter of the lies told by that shitebag paper, are exactly why the club and the families have fought for so long. Today might signal the start of the end to your boredom and amusement, sorry for causing you any distraction in your judgemental little lives. Will be having a cull on here this weekend, dont bother saying goodbye."

I know its the mirror but this is a pretty good read

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/hillsborough-documents-released-brian-reade-1318730

Not having a pop but just saying,you do not have to know anyone to be effected,us town fans still bang on about how we were mistreated by the fa 20 years ago,some young fans would still be angry if they were told how we were treated.I dont think it is that bad that younj lpool fans are angry with what happened.

I think trevor hicks has every right to be a bit mardy dave.............


Trevor Hicks was one of the few who got a loved one into Tony Edwards' ambulance. He was trying to resuscitate his 19- year- old daughter Sarah when he spotted her 15- year- old sister Victoria being placed into the ambulance.

Trevor tried to push Sarah in alongside her but the bodies were piled high and he had to lay her back on the pitch.

He said: " The ambulance started to move away. I saw the door close and I had to make a decision in that split-second. I thought 'the fella with Sarah knows what he's doing, I'll leave her with him and another ambulance will be along in a minute'."

Another one never came and both of his girls died. Trevor, now 63, added: "In the ambulance, I was sucking the vomit from Vicky's throat. I couldn't get rid of that taste for six months.

"A psychiatrist said I was either trying to hang on to the last contact with my daughters or it was guilt - I was punishing myself for not saving them.

"The hurt I suffered that day was so extreme I can't be hurt any more."

There's 96 families who this applies to, most of whom have since maintained a quieter, more dignified pursual of justice.

Yes what happened to his children is appalling but people can appreciate that without having it constantly rammed down their throats, much like you're doing at the moment.

Some of the stuff I have seen on twitter makes me so fucking mad.  A few people are truly cunts without an ounce of intelligence of compassion in their pathetic souls.

People died.  They could have been saved.  The police lied.  They shouldn't have.  A national newspaper colluded with the police and produced a paper which propagated lies.  They should be ashamed.  People buy that lying shit rag and proclaim to read the nasty disgraceful venom and lies.  They shouldn't.  

Its a horrible example of what man is capable of and makes me ashamed to be human.

jesus dave youre right, how dare that cunt hicks keep ramming the death of his daughters down our throats for a silly thing called justice.

i know you aim to get a rise in general but dont be a fucking idiot

He's got justice at last - they all have - so why is there a need for you to bring up one emotive example?

I reiterate, everyone KNOWS what happened, you won't guilt me in to feeling more compassion than I currently do - it's a terrible, shameful episode but you are an example of why people like me get exasperated with it all.

I've never known you to have any interest or active campaign in the Hillsborough disaster outside of that of your average football fan - you are now pandering to the masses on here and on Facebook.

I'm not a moron, I have eyes and ears, and I have always been a football fan. I know what happended at Hillsborough - as everyone on here does. Just because I'm not making a huge public moral outburst about it does't make me a cunt.

 

I never knew that only 1 of 80 ambulances entered into the arena that day as they were told that there was fighting going on. Absolutely shocking.

Thing is Dave, you're probably not a cunt are you.  The keyboard warrior who spouts these unpleasant views however is.  You realise people feel strongly about this.  How about resisting the urge to throw a contrary view on here?

I'm not trying to be 'unpleasant.'

This is massively oversimplifying what I was trying to express - but OK, in a nutshell, no, I don't REALLY care that much and I find it annoying that what I perceive to be a lot of false compassion is forced upon people like me. Even Joey Barton is at it on Twitter ffs, "crying his eyes out" - as if. It's cringeworthy. And detracts from those who have a real cause to fight for.

That's the truth - I personally can't feel that strongly. I'm sorry. I wasn't there. Nobody I know was there. I was a few weeks old. I am entitled to a contrary and if it bothers you that much then that is really your problem.

I won't say anything else on the subject because I have nothing else to add.

Dave i like many on here have no doubt thought, christ that could have been me, the amount of games in the eighties that i was either crushed or lifted off my feet (and im a fat cunt) is more than i can count on my fingers. As a football fan i watched the scenes unfold live on tv and felt sick, the fact that such a huge fucking injustice was then done rubbed salt into gaping wounds. I will get on my high horse when something that means something to me is morally or socially wrong, its the way i have been brought up and im fucking proud of that.

maybe if one of your greens had been dishevelled or daddys tax haven had been found out you might be more prone to giving a flying fuck about fellow human beings

but maybe you just keep that to yourself for once dave, i understand what you're getting at and it's your opinion and all that but the fact is people will want to talk about this and i think they should be allowed to.

it's doing no good to anyone to - for want of a better word - belittling it all by having you say on it

Fucking spot on Mex.

Thinking about it, now that the fans are officially blameless, where do we stand on the issue of safe standing? Surely the Taylor report is now irrelevant?

Thats a very good point.

Plod getting caught but not punished...surprise surprise...NOTHING will be done about this.

I am glad that the true witnesses and families kept fighting...they never gave up fighting for the truth.

They kept on scratching until the whole thing festered and popped.........

Most papers at the time ran with the 'truth' story. The Sun's 'fault' was not to use the word allegedly.

Well said...

I see what you're getting at but you are going about it the wrong way.

Thats a bit contradictory - people should be allowed to have their opinion, except those like me who don't necessarily wholeheartedly go along with the general view! Fair enough. It's a discussion forum - I've said what I think.

What are your views on 9/11, the holocaust etc?

Totally irrelevant. But, 9/11 is different - in the sense that I am old enough to have seen it and understand it, and with people like my Dad who have worked in the States, I could empaphise more with that, than I can with Hillsborough.

I don't think you can compare 96 deaths in a situation that got totally out of control, to 3000, or 6 million, deliberate murders.

Nah I was just getting at the whole "it doesn't bother me so I'll make a point of it" thing. You wouldn't try and argue that point for one of those events.

Well if they were discussed on here then maybe I would have an opinion - I think most TEFers will know I have an opinion on most things - they may or may not be one of indifference.

Anyway, you, and this, is detracting from the whole thread.

Justice for the 96? It would appear they have got it. How much me, you, Mex, Sax or any other chump on here cares or doesnt care doesn't really matter now. The truth will out - and it has.

I will say one thing Dave,Joey Barton and others worked fucking hard for today to happen and have spent countless hours with the families,me personally i got upset watching it the other night so can understand why people who have been in the company of these family members may shed a tear.

Hillsborough wasn't the result of "a situation that got totally out of control", it was entirely preventable.

I remember that day.

Swindon were at home and the news came in on the car radio going home. I remember the silence in the car but I remembered the TV being on at my parents house when I got in. Just staring at the carnage.

How can anyone have an opinion on this. The facts are the truth is now out and people have lost their loved ones. Nothing will bring them back, only the small consolation that a "sorry" has been made today.

I heard what Cameron said today, from the radio  and do you know what a tear appeared in my eye.
Not because of the speech (it certainly was a "good" one) but for the sadness, waste and cruelty that has now unfolded.
Just the same old fucking words from a government but will anything come out of this, Justice ? and what will happen to those that lied ?
More than likely nothing...............For those 96 I hope I am wrong.

Cameron has had to carry the can for this ,poor fucker....still....it was a Tory government in power at the time so tough shit really innit!

I honestly feel that the people that criticize scousers for "banging on about it" really do not understand what happened or the way it was reported.

The Plod's attitude towards many football fans is that we are subhuman scumbags, we are often treated with less respect than a pedophile or a rapist might get. Treated completely without common courtesy and denied basic requests like the use of a toilet. Their general attitude is to assume trouble making is taking place without any substance or reason to believe this and their methods and tactics often cause more trouble than they prevent out of peoples frustration of the way they are being treated.

This happens all the time, all over the country yet nothing is done because 'It's just football fans' and they can put it down to hooliganism....the general public view if something unjust happens to a football fan is that they probably deserved it and had it coming without any idea of the details of what happened. The only way The FA Cup Semi Final of April 15, 1989 between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest was different was because 96 people died. The police played on that general view of football fans from the public and ran with it, used it to cover up their own failings.

96 people died for fuck sake, put yourself in Liverpool's position? Ok so we're not going to take 24,000 away anytime soon (Wembley trips excluded) but on a smaller scale, say we tool two and a half thousand away somewhere and 9 or 10 people never returned, then we got the blame for what happened completely unfairly? I think we'd all have a giant chip on our shoulders for decades to come as well, don't you?

I think its easy for fans of a certain age to empaphise. As Chalky above says football fans back then were treated with nothing but complete and utter contempt - the lowest of the low. The police could do whatever they wanted to do with you and the magistrates would back them up - you had no rights, you were a worthless piece of shit, you were sub human, you were gulity of whatever a copper said you did, even if you had witnessess to the contrary. The police were unaccountable. There were no mobile phones, less cameras etc so it was your word against theirs.
This institutionalised contempt manifested itself in Hillsborough and the lying, cheating cowards tried to cover it up by playing the football scum card. Talk about having your cake and eating it.
I won't replay the events but virtually all football fans knew what went on. A friend of mine was in the Forest end and thney could see what was going no and tried to get on the pitch to help and was baton charged. He lives with this every day  being so near yet being unable to help. Seeing people die in front of his eyes.
If you're a football fan of a certain age, it could have been you. I can remember numerous occasions with Town where I struggled to breathe, Mansfield, Luton, The Scum. Any of these could have been a Hillsborough but they weren't.
I admire Hicks, I admire any of the families, i admire the people at the game - they've got to live with this every day. The uselless pieces of shit who have escaped punishment (Dukenfield etc) probably live in a world of hell caused by their cowardly, inhumane arrogance and contempt for their fellow man.
I want this talked about in 100 years so as we don't have another one. Its like i still want all Nazis hunted down until their final breath.
I hope this gives some semblance of closure to the families but I doubt it.
 And Mex - as for safe standing, maybe it can't be reintroduced because the police can't be trusted not because the fans can't behave.

 

Good post ChalkyWhite, It's something terrible that happened and the way the police have covered things up over the past 23 years is absolutely shameful. Will something be done about it now though? I'm not so sure. I do believe however the families of those 96 want closure for who they believe is responsible. Now that is has been found I hope it goes someway to giving them that closure.

Goalkeeper Bruce Grobbelaar, a couple of yards from the unfolding disaster, was one of the first to raise the alarm.

He said: "There were people with their faces pinned against the fence saying to me, 'Bruce, can you help me. We can't breathe'. So I asked a policewoman to open the gate and she said, 'We have to wait for our boss to give the word'."

How many times have Swindon turned up to an away game with more fans than seats/space for fans, with an additional space available be it the end behind the goal at Barnet or thousands of empty seats at Plymouth and despite clearly being able to resolve the problem at a moments notice by opening up the additional end or simply moving segregation netting but the stewards have to "wait for the boss to give the word" No ones going to die from it, given the difference in stadia and the lack of fences, etc but it's the same old attitude. Incredibly incompetent.

I think you have missed the point that the only reason why Justice has finally come out is because people have banged on about it and been boring, without that happening the truth wouldn't have come out.  It is about empathy for other people and other football fans who as we all know have had to put up with an awful lot of shit and lies over the years(Oxford fans excluded as thats all true)

I can sort of relate to DMR's viewpoint. He can't remember it happening. Of course you don't have to have seen it to be able to show compassion, but it must be different.

The only thing I can draw a parallel to is Bloody Sunday and the Saville Report of 2010

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10320609

Its an equally horrible thing, maybe moreso, and I am glad the report came out. But it doesn't stir the same emotions as Hillsborough.

I hope the responsible get what they deserve. Nobody should go to watch a football match and not come home through the incompetence of those in charge. No family should have to go through hell for all these years, knowing the truth had been covered up through lies and suppression.

Maybe those supporters who forced in without tickets should shoulder the blame, oh wait couldn't possibly be that.
It is sad that 96 lost their lives but the whole of that club & fan base always demands sympathy for one thing or another..but it's never their fault.

I haven't read the report, not have I seen/heard that much of the coverage on this (travelling most of the day), but when there is a crush taking place aren't there usually a set o people doing the pushing? Does that not mean that the Liverpool fans are a culpable even if only in a small part?

I think what DMR is trying to say is that the grief junkies, of which there are many, have in a sense hijacked the situation to a degree and for that reason he is a tad meh about the whole thing. 

I feel the same way to a degree and I'm sure I'm not the only one but the doesn't mean we disrespect those people that lost their lives or their families. Nor does it mean we disrespect the people that have fought to get this far and neither do we have a single bad intention toward anybody that has genuine feelings about this.

For me it's ironic that this followed 9/11. I was close to posting in the twitter thread about people asking for RT's 'out of respect for those who died in 9/11'. How on earth could an RT show respect for the 9/11 victims?

If you have real feelings about Hillsborough then furry muff but you'll probably find that most of those making the most noise on social media would have forgotten all about it within the week.

I agree in some small part with the sentiment of this post although definitely not the provocative way you've written it.

It seems people are now using this to re-write history (sound familiar?) in the favour of the fans. They are partly responsible whether they want to admit it or not.

Despite the fact the fans have been completely exonerated in (now 2) official reports  ::)

This ticketless drunk fan argument is starting to get on my fucking nerves,TWO reports have shown this to be false,it was the negligence of the police that rounded the fans up outside the gates causing a rush and it was the police who opened the gates for them to go.Bet the ignorant cunts happy to keep peddling this shit have not read 1 page of the report

As I stated in my first post on this... I'll go away, have a read, and get back to you.

Serious question: have Liverpool, and their fans, used Hillsbrough as a way to absolve themselves of responsibility for Heysel?

A number of reports, inquests, etc have concluded that "sole" responsibility lay with the Liverpool fans who charged the Juventus fans. Or does this get put down to the stadium's poor state of repair, inept policing, etc?

Someone on the first page mentioned that the "holier than thou" attitude gets on their nerves so will be interested to hear what the people who have shot down DMR, and others, have to say.

Absolutely spot on. It was an event of its time-the dark days when if you went to football you must be a hooligan or up to no good, your rights were almost non existent and you deserved all you got from the police. Easily forgotten nowadays, and perhaps it's harder for younger fans to grasp exactly how shit those times were for football supporters. You still turned up and accepted you would be treated like shit but, on that day, it suddenly seemed that you weren't even guaranteed to come home from watching a game. It seems a bit dramatic to say that now, but I know that was what many of us and our families thought in the immediate aftermath. I for one am glad the truth is out and I hope it will help the families move on.

Are you sure that's a serious question?

Fuck it, past my bedtime!

I'm somewhat confused by the way some people are reacting to the release of the papers. I haven't read anything that contradicts the main findings of the Taylor report, ie the cause and contributing factors of the disaster.

The Taylor report blamed the Police and other authorities, it didn't blame the fans at all. So why are some people now claiming the fans have been cleared of any blame? What blame? There never was any.

The same for there not being any one single cause. There was a catastrophic sequence of events, starting some time before the day of the game, that led to the disaster.

Anyone passing comment really needs to read the Taylor report first to get their facts straight.

There's no doubt Liverpool fans have got to take a large share of the blame for Heysel but so have UEFA who chose an unsafe ground to hold the game. I slso think the policing was inept particularly with the Juventus fan waving a gun around.
As for Hillsborough, I don't know how any one can blame the Scousers. You needed to be around in those days to appreciate it because fans pushing and shoving happenned at virtually every big game. There's fuck all chance the Scousers would have had a fucking clue to the consequences of the pushing and shoving. Also, don't forget the police were corralling the fans and they didn't fuck about in those days - if you didn't shift you'd bet a baton around your back or arse. It was simply inept, arrogant, contempt of football fans - pure and simple.

Wasnt a pop at you prince.In regards to heysel despite what many would have you believe liverpool did say sorry and do a memorial every year,the liverpool echo also published a front page apology.Again not directed at you but i dont think it is about heysel it is about the british public being led to believe that this was down to yobs who caused all this.Heysel was violence simple as that

No.

The central pens were full and were not closed as they should have been. So fans coming in to the ground went to the central pens, not knowing they were full and what was going to happen. If the central pens had been closed and fans directed to the other pens (which had plenty of space) the disaster would have been averted or at minimum a lot less lives lost.

But as per my other post, the failure to not close the central pens was just one in a long line of mistakes and failings.

I read an article written by Kenny Dalglish on the Heysel disaster. He pretty much said there was absolutely zero blame to be attached to the Liverpool fans and that everyone else was to blame instead.

What the fuck are you on about? Heysel? At Heysel, pissed up Liverpool fans caused the death of Juventus supporters, aided by inept policing and a ground that was crumbling, all that is true, but what has that got to do with 96 Liverpool fans, many children, who died as a direct result of incompetent policing? Should people feel less sympathy for the families of those who died because some fans of the club they supported caused a earlier tragedy?

I'm no 'grief junkie' as someone succintly put it, but fuck me, there's some right arseholes spouting shit about an event where 96 INNOCENT people lost their lives. For their families to have to wait 23 years for the full story to be revealed and those responsible to be identified, is fucking shameful.

I feel sorry for the police and ambulance staff on duty that day....most probably dont like footy and were doing a job...nothing more.
They have/had to carry the horror of that day for ever that day as well.....it is the forces after the event that did the cover up...not these poor guys.
I seem to remember the Bradford fire disaster and some incredibly brave coppers with there bodies alight saving lives.....so let us remember it wasnt the majority on the day but as usual a selfish minority after the event.
Not a great Liverpool fan because of Heysel..........but that was an awfull day with young old and dying on semi final day.
Seem to remember a Lad from Fairford was among the dead.....good day for the families and dare i say it Mr Cameron.

Yes I get it, they were innocent, I understand that. I also personally believe (opinions, remeber those?) that the holier than thou attitude DOES exist so was trying (unsuccessfully) to see if people thought the fans had used the national sympathy to make amends for Heysel.

I'll get back in my box.

Back on the point about justice... some people seem to suggest that they have it just by getting these papers released but that's complete shit. They now have the truth, justice will only some when people are held accountable for their actions or inactions.

I must admit, up until today I've never really had more than just a passing interest in this, it was a subject that I honestly didn't know much about.

Reading the facts that came out today and as someone who regularly goes to football matches, I can't imagine what those poor (majority young) people went through and what their families and friends have had to deal with for the past 23 years and will continue to have to deal with for the rest of their lives. I googled 'Hillsborough disaster' and some of the pictures are truly horrific, it just doesn't bear thinking about.

The Mirror article really brought it home in the last paragraph, it took a disaster like Hillsborough to make football as safe as it is today. It's just such a shame it took 96 lives when it could've all been avoided.

"Compassion fatigue" is one thing and I get the concept of grief junkies. The whole Diana thing I found very odd.

But that's still separate from what these papers say was a systematic plot, that seems to have begun while people were still dying, from the police to falsify, lie, smear, doctor documents and propagate false information to get themselves off the hook.

That's enough to make me utterly seethe with rage. And I'm essentially an old, bald, cynical sod who is mostly too lazy to move off a chair.

The people of Liverpool have shown true dignity over the last 23 years, the loss they have suffered and the way their loved ones died is incomprehensible for most of us, now they have the truth I hope they get the justice that they fully deserve.

I wouldn't even use The Sun to line a rabbit hutch, and how Cameron comes out of this with any credit is beyond me, the man is a cunt, always was, always will be

I don't really want to get invloved in any debate on this. It was a disaster and could've happened anywhere. Were there  any fans drunk or without tickets - yes. Did they cause the deaths of 96 people - no. The fact that the families have had to deal with the deaths of loved ones and then fight for this justice sickens me.

We were at home to Watford on the day and I can remember it coming up on the scoreboard. I got home and watched it and wept.

I doubt if any fan who got home that night didn't think "there for the grace of god go I".

Watch the last minute or so of this - beautiful words on a sad, sad day :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVBl4Ww_m7E

I'm no fan of Dave but some people do love any excuse for a dig at him, what exactly has he done wrong with this situation?

I was asking how he comes out of this with any credit rather than what he had done wrong.

I am no fan of Cameron or any Tory but he could have sat on this for another 9 years which would have seen him out of office and it be someone else's problem - he didn't. I thought his words were right - there was no whitewash and he din't hold back. This is about as big a public bollicking as any government has given.
Its now over to the Attorney General to see if charges should be brought and personally I hope they are. I'd like to see some of these arrogant useless cunts brought to account. Its not only the way they acted in the first place that makes me fucking seethe its the way the cowards covered it up and tried to piss on the dead with their lies, deceit and contempt. Any copper who changed their account should be done for perverting the course of justice. Lets see if any of these cunts wants to make an apology instead of leaving it to people who had no involvement whatsoever.

Nothing will happen....remember these words.

I don't think it was the officers that edited the accounts, it sounds like this was ordered by someone much higher up as it formed part of the evidence handed over to the inquest.

But agree that whoever ordered this should be held accountable.

And after 23 long years the families that lost loved ones will probably feel that is the next step.  Surely the Senior Police Officers must be prosecuted now?  It's all too public.

Something that hasn't been touched on is amongst some of the findings revealed today was the fact that 41 of those that died could potentially have been saved had ambulance crews got onto the pitch and treated them.  Although a number of families already had evidence that their loved ones were alive long after the original coroner's cut off of 3.15pm, this news must be heartbreaking.

Agreed, cynically I thought that they would sit on it too, or at least it wouldn't release all the documents or heavily redact them. We all knew it was a cover-up, but I confess I'm still taken aback slightly at the sheer scale of it. Given that there were always 'oddities' from the outset, and that successive Home Secretaries refused to reopen the case leads to suspicion that the cover-up went right to the top

Trouble is this happened 23 years ago... the senior Police officers ail by now be retired and probably dead. They are the ones who should and would face prosecution

The ones they are quoting as 'still serving' would in likelihood have been junior PC's who were following orders - no excuse, I know but if they were ordered to change there statement then it will be very difficult to prosecute them for perverting the course of justice. In fact, the usual coverall charge of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice would also be difficult to prove as they weren't colluding they were following orders.

Morally I would hope that there was at least one police officer who refused to change their statement or at least retain a copy of the original one and thing bring this to the attention of the IPCC  - my fear is that the IPCC were aware and were instructed not to act which makes a mockery of the whole independent thing...

The inquiry have the originals and the altered versions, so no worries about providing that evidence.

There has been people involved with the Holocaust and the Khmer Rouge (apologies for spelling) being brought to justice, in their 80's or 90's. It makes no difference they did something wrong and should rightly be punished.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q64TpA-uKY

a beautiful moment of football fans united to remember this terrible event

Hmmm, DMR and Matchworn shirts need to talk to each other, then I think we fix both of them.

DMR believes it's boring because we all knew anyway, yet matchworn has swallowed the bullshit around ticketless drunk fans being a contributing factor.  Given that drunk ticketless fans was a bullshit excuse peddled by the authorities, Matchworn believes it still, yet DMR think everyone knows the truth.  Clearly everyone doesn't knwo the truth, mainly because it never came out.

Jonny, you mentioned how Taylor already covered this, and to some extent he did.  However the issue was the inquest into the cause of death, which has effectively meant no criminal prosecutions were possible.  A new inquest will more than likely get the right information this time and come to a very different conclusion, which in turn paves the way for criminal charges.

As for police officers hiding behind orders, bollocks.  If peoples lives are in danger, the law will support you anyway if contradicting orders.

The statements that have been released appear to show parts that have been crossed out so it's quite clear to see what was originally included. Granted, this was just one image I've seen but assume its not a case where a second statement has been given which completely contradicts the original. Seems more co-ordinated than that.

So very true.
I recall numerous times walking back to Swindon station to catch my train back to Didcot. I was a young lad but often treated like scum, due to simply being a football fan.

So many times I was herded back with the away fans despite being a Swindon fan and if you mentioned this to plod you were immediately told to basically "shut it" or having 2 options one being arrested or two being hit.
The bricks and bottles often rained down near the old bus depot or from the station wall but that was the norm.
Nothing compares to the terracing but the fact now remains that terracing was introduced based on a pack of lies from this disaster.
Lets see what happens now to those who were "guilty".

Okay then, from somebody who was there that day, I have to say this whole report is nothing more than utter bollox, it says that at 2.39pm there was a tannoy announcement outside the Leppings Lane end asking for fans to stop pushing, yet the fans "were not to blame", what a complete and utter load of tosh. At around 2.45pm, as I walked past the Leppings Lane end the crowds outside were huge, and as clear as day I remember a load of mouthy Scouse blokes steaming past some mates of theirs and clearly shouting "come on, we're going to try and get in", now try and disect that statement all you want, but to me that still says ticketless fans trying to force their way in.

Another part of the report says "there was an abnormally large amount of supporters in the concourse prior to kick-off". Well of course there was, it was an FA Cup Semi Final, not Sheffield Wednesday v Luton Town, you've only got to look at any large following away from home in an older style ground for fans to see "an abnormally large amount of supporters in the concourse prior to kick-off", and no doubt a lot of those people were drinking, hence the reason why they were there and not on the terrace (we've all done it).

Oh, and let's test the dead for alcohol, hang on a minute, this were the innocent lot, the reason they died is because they got in earlier than most, hence the reason why they were at the front, it was the wankers at the back that crushed the poor sods.

All this report has done is given the Scousers more ammunition, they're innocent after-all, the report says so, and that idiot Cameron has just won a blue vote in the red half of Merseyside by issuing an apology, but lets be honest, Heysel - not Liverpool's fault, it was the Chelsea skinheads; Athens in 2007 - innocent Liverpool fans having their tickets nicked off them by ticketless Liverpool fans (this is true, the amount of callers on to 5Live after that game was immense), and as Wrighty as alluded to, the Carling Cup final last season too.

And going back to Hillsborough, let us not forget the Liverpool fans on the halfway line goading us Forest fans, and the fact that a lot of the injured (and probably dead) supporters pockets were picked whilst they were lying on the pitch.

Ultimately I will admit that there were other factors that day, yes South Yorkshire Police made mistakes (although the officer on the gate was left in an impossible situation), yes the Leppings Lane End was a risk (Leeds fans I know that went to the same fixture v Coventry in 87 felt very unsafe), but to clear all Liverpool fans of the blame is absolutely shocking, and in my own opinion has only been done to shut them up and put this horrible tragedy to bed, however I'm now expecting the families, and all of their distant non-existent relatives to start putting forward their cases to their lawyers, there's going to be a lot of very rich Scousers in the not too distant future me thinks, and I'm not talking lottery winners.

Fuck me you're a bitter twat

As I said, I was there that day, You'd be bitter if you witnessed what I witnessed, I didn't go back to a game at Hillsborough for years, mainly because of the mental scars, the images from that day still firmly cemented in my mind, but the fact that yet again ALL Liverpool fans (and yes, I appreciate it is only a small minority) have been exonerated is quite simply mind-boggling to say the least.

Taking his story at face value, you could understand why he might not be happy with how this has now been spun in favour of the fans. If of course it is true.

Even if that was true, and it contradicts every eye witness  I've read and heard for years, not just yesterday, it doesn't explain the horrendous response once the crush had occurred.


Was it the Liverpool fans who ignored the pleas of the trapped to open the pen?

Was it the Liverpool fans who allowed just one Ambulance on the pithc?

Was it the Liverpool fans who set the arbitary 3.15 cut off for evdience at the original inquest

Was it the Liverpool fans who changed Police statements?

etc etc etc

Believe you me it's true, this isn't some personal smear campaign against Liverpool fans, I feel for the families of the deceased, I really do, in exactly the same way that I feel for the families of those that died at Valley Parade in 1986, but I, like many other Forest fans that were there that day really cannot believe that those fans outside the ground have been effectively found not guilty.  I refer you to two pieces from yesterdays report relating to activities outside Leppings Lane between 2.42pm and 2.48pm:-

and


Can't blame the fans though can we?

And you've read all 450,000+ pages so know this for a fact?

See my post above, none of that would have taken place had fans not turned up in numbers outside the ground, and had South Yorkshire Police actually policed the areas outside the ground properly.

Know what for a fact? No I haven't read the whole thing, and I don’t think that I suggested that at all.

To be clear I meant that  I’ve read a lot of first hand accounts of Hilsborough over the years, and not just from Liverpool fans.

Yeah, I may have misread that slightly and thought you were dismissing his statement entirely. Mainly as I didn't read the full sentence.

I'm not sure anyone doubts that fans turned up beered up, and probably quite a few late in the day, as was and as is common at most football games.

I also recall at the time seeing images of outside the ground, and as you'd expect with a few minutes to go before the game, fans were pushing forwards in general groups.

The fundamental failure however was the series of decisions taken by the match controller, the situation he was confronted with was not new and is part of parcel of many crowd control situations.

Fatal blunders were made which started the chain reaction, the classification of the event as being crowd trouble for example caused a series of reactions which would not have been taken if someone had said the issue was an over crowding one.  Beer or no beer, a few people with no tickets or with plenty of tickets, it was the decision making that caused the problem to occur and then made it worse by not allowing the appropriate reaction.  To then cover up all of that is, well, it's been said plenty.

If 40,000 plus people attending a sporting event have to be relied on to make the rational decisions, then we'd all be in trouble regularly.  Crowd instincts create all manner of problems that need responsible control - witness the Manchester Plane disaster in the 80's where people burned to death on the runway because crowd instincts were impossible to control with everyone pushing to get out of the plane when they saw fire.  It's natural that in a panic people begin to look out for themselves, then others panic and so on.

The Taylor report did acknowledge some fans were drunk and didn't have tickets but it also stated that this was not a contributing factor to the disaster.

Interestingly, I read through the section on the altered statements in the new report and there was at least one statement from a Police officer that was altered to remove negative comments about the behaviour of Liverpool fans that they had witnessed.

I didn't read anything with regard to the altered statements that appears to be a smoking gun. A lot of it was tidying up grammar, removing foul language and removing things which were opinion and not fact. Really not convinced there was any real conspiracy, what they did was stupid but I haven't read anything to suggest the cover up some claim.

The Police should have been charged with corporate manslaughter (or whatever it would be) but I'm still not convinced the behaviour of any officers was anything more than pure incompetence and being caught up in a disastrous sequence of events.


The fatal sequence of events started long before the day of the game; the stand and changes made to it, selecting that ground for the game, the allocation of clubs to the different sections of the ground, the planning and so on.

Everyone goes on about how the Police treated everyone like animals back then but they conveniently ignore the fact that a lot of fans routinely acted like animals. I'm not saying this excuses the behaviour of the Police but it is a factor and the reason they incorrectly thought they were facing crowd trouble rather than what was actually happening that day.

Am i right i saying liverpool fans were in the same end they were the year before in a game that passed without incident. How youcan say it was ot a cover up i do not know

Agree to some extent Jonny, but up until the moment of the reactions at the gates, it was avoidable.

I think the match controller had never covered a football game before, let alone took control of semi final.

The stand itself no doubt made it worse, but it had been used without deaths before, showing that risk control and management was still possible.  The use of perimiter fencing, a reaction to the culture you mention, had been in place for a long time.  This showed the impact it could have when crowd control was not in place, and rightly lead to it's removal.  All the lessons learned from a stadia point of view were no doubt things that should have been done before, but the human impact of the decisions makers ultimately caused the situation to unfold.

If there was a cover up by the Police they didn't make too good a job of it as they got the majority of the blame in the Taylor report. Sure they tried to deflect some of the blame but the conspiracy theory doesn't make sense to me.


Of course it was avoidable, even after the gates had been opened it could have been. But it was a long sequence of events that started long before the game - such as the appointment of certain people (as you point out). There was another interesting document released in the latest report, a letter from a fan complaining about over crowding in the same stand at the semi-final played at Hillsborough the year before. There were other warning signs which had been ignored.

Don't you think these two points could be related?

He was treated like scum because someone else threw bricks and bottles?

In a week where the Police have got a rightful bashing from this subject.

These days you see a lot more children and families at football. Generally the Police appear move friendly to the football Supporter.
Going back in time this was not the case. Young Males were "likely" to be potential trouble makers in the eyes of the Police, or maybe it just felt that way.

I have no worries taking my family to football now. My 9 year old went with me to Oxford the other night.
No way would I have considered taking my family to many games back in the 70's or 80's so you could say this has improved.

I don't like there being too many kids at football, i feel like i need to control my language...

Fuck 'em

Shame it isn't literally.

In the 20 years before 1990 British fans were involved tragedies such as Ibrox 1971, Bradford, Heysel and obviously Hillsborough. In the 20 odd years since 1990, as a result of the Lord Taylor report, we've thankfully had no major tragedy. If nothing else, albeit a small crumb of comfort for the families of the '96, that's Hillsborough's enduring legacy.

I blame the parents.........My five year old lad after losing to his brother in a Wi game was heard to be shouting .....wanker, wanker, wanker at his brother. Mum stepped in giving youngest a right telling off. The truth never did come out to where he picked up this word let alone this chant ;)

Youngest has not attended a game this year after this outburst - Now then where did he pick this up from ? :)

Pretty sure that's frowned upon.

probably my foul mouthed father

Sitting near you, i can vouch for this.

Bennett on the other hand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-58pQrZ7Pas

Kelvin MacKenzie wants Apology from South Yorkshire Police

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19727779

Wonder what the Liverpool fans will make of this..?

Ha ha....laughable.....but not really....people died FFS.