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Discuss  :)

I did until I failed to be raptured yesterday. Now the ungrateful old sod can go and swivel on his cloud.

No

I believe in reincarnation.

No... although I'm intrigued by Deism and the theory of the 'divine clockmaker'.

Religion is just another form of fascism.

i am god

No. Although I realise I'm a bit of a hypocrite in saying that because I got married in a church and also had my daughter christened.

I believe in God. If it helps you to lead a better life for having that belief then that's a good thing surely?

how does it help Mr Shop?

I believe that we cannot possibly know.

Helps me believe i have a purpose in life and that by following my beliefs my afterlife will be prosperous.

awww that's sweet. i just think of tits and that helps me get through the day

soppy cunt

I believe in creation over evolution from nothing. What created the complexity of life & living organisms I have no idea.

With billions of planets in every galaxy & billions of galaxy's in the universe, I find it hard to believe earth is the only planet with 'intelligent' life

So there

Indeed, there is no conclusive proof one way or the other.

I do wonder how the earth was created, how we came about, is there anything after death, who invented words, who decided something like 'alan' was a name?!

But, which ever supposed theory you use to try and answer those questions there is nothing factual.

Not that its a topic i'm too clued up on to be honest...

Read the bible? That clears alot of it up.

I always come back to one question.

If god does exist and is all powerful (he did create the universe after all), why is it that a large number of the worlds conflicts take place along religious lines.

It would suggest that if there is a god he's a bit of a babe

He is teaching man a lesson.

I think religion does have an important purpose to many, providing a set of morals and promoting good lifestyle (generally) etc. Where it falls down is that many of these are dated and stupid.

I don't believe in a god or feel the need to practice religion in order to get the best out of life, but I can see why some people do.

If god is the all powerful and omnipotent being that religion makes him out to be, why would he feel the need to be worshipped?

He never said he felt the need to be worshipped. Jesus spread the word and the rest followed.

Could not have put it better myself, Si Pie.

I must admit to feeling slightly superior to anyone who is gullible enough to practice religion...But at the end of the day, our laws are built around the foundations of religious morals - so if gullible folk want to believe in god, father christmas, jack frost or the tooth fairy to get through the day, then it's okay with me.

Wish people weren't silly enough to fight over religion (i.e. Northern Ireland, middle east conflict, etc).

You have to remember that God doesn't make all our decisions for us, conflict over religion is a man made thing, people decide to fight over religion because of how they interpret it, if God was to stop it or stop people from doing evil things, we wouldn't have free will we'd just be puppets.

Best cop out I think I have ever heard bath............

haha take it up with the big man himself then ;)

I've got no problem with people having faith and believing what they want, but I can't abide creationism being taught in schools or people saying the world is only 5,000 years old.

If I had my way, indoctrination would be outlawed.

But you don't.Thank fuck

I agree, but i think that most Christians are clever enough to know that this isn't the case, theres so much evidence that Earth is much older and a lot of evidence for evolution, but i don't think this can be used to discount the existence of God. I think a lot of the bible is metaphorical and shouldn't be interpreted too literally which some branches of Christianity does do.

Every human is different and it is a personal thing.
In countries where people have not a lot to look forward to in life it is important that they have some faith to turn to mainly to get through life.
I do not believe in God but i think every human has a spiritual aspect in there lives and that some people are more spiritual and believing in a god than others.

One thing is for certain there has been many times in my life that i have asked for help from someone/thing and i still regularly stop and visit churches for a few mins of absolute solace and peace,i sometimes pray but to be honest who i pray to i cannot say,my mind is not clever enough or disciplined enough to fully commit to something i will never fathom.

can we all go back to slagging each other off and talking about di canio?

I don't believe he exists.

there are a few folk who wish he didn't

no

I agree strongly. I don't believe in any of it and can, within reason, deal with religion's existence. However, I do disagree, very, very, very strongly with it being taught in schools and being forced onto children. 

I will now leave this thread, as I know religious debates have less end product than a debate on Paolo di Canio.

I do but I believe he's losing his power.

How are they forced on children? Some schools don't have these classes. They are not forced at all it's up to the parents to decide if they are sending these kids to the school.

virtually all primary schools teach god as fact.

I think they teach it so that the kids can make their own decision when they're older, it's better for them to be taught it and to decide they don't believe it than for them to never be told about God and never have the opportunity to become a Christian etc. Also, would you rather they were taught that there is no God and no afterlife, do you think they can deal with their own mortality at a young age?

I also think that teaching them about God gives them good moral guidelines to live by.

I had to do an RE exam.

I hope they liked my drawings all over the paper

Young children don't know any better to object to any notion of god. How can a kid who hasn't even begin physics lessons possibly know how to argue against creationism? Our kids look up to as for guidance in regard to what is right and how things work and stuff.

Therefore, we should not teach them stuff that we know to be bollocks.

kids from the age of 4 are told that god did this, and god does that.hymns in assembly,and prayers before meals.
the children believe what they are told. they are too young to question whether god is real or not.
alot of morals in religions are good,but i completely disagree with it taught as faact to kids at such a young age.

That's something that gets under my skin.

My daughter will not be taught about any bible shit, but she will still be a good person. Personally, I'd be a bit unsure of any adult that needs a book to tell them what's right and what's wrong.

Hahahahahahahah

Oh.

And I am no atheist, I'm an agnostic.

The difference is that I can see through the bullshit of the bible/koran and stuff.

I agree, I love the old, "If we didn't read the bible we'd be murderers and rapists," type argument.


Any "teaching" of religion to children is being taught as truth, therefore with a parent's consent or not, it is forced; a child is to young to decide. If you told a child adults can fly, they'd believe it. Teaching a child they will burn in hell is mental abuse in my opinion.

Let someone decide when their mind is their own, they can think rationally and decide for themselves - preferably they should be left to discover it as adults. I want nothing to do with religion and it can do as it wants, within reason, but the moment children are involved it makes me very angry.

It's hard not to teach something as fact though isn't it?

Do you have kids arriba, what would you tell them if they asked you what happens when you die? Not trying to be nosy or rude or anything btw.

My daughter knows i can't fly. On a serious note then here my daughter asked me 2 weeks ago for her birthday to buy here a bible so i bought one of the childrens bibles that are available.

Does this make me a bad person?

Of course not.

But if it was my girl I'd want to know what she was asking for a bible.

Because she has heard and seen things that interest her and enjoys reading.

they already have religious classes without it taught as fact.they learn about different religions,but teach christianity as the factual one.

i have 2 kids. they know my views on religion and i've told them i believe you get one life.you are born-live then die eventually. i believe religion was born due to the unknown of death and the fear of it.
you aint offended me as i like debate on this but it often goes nowhere

What I mean is, is she being fed with this stuff by somebody.

If my girl came home asking for a bible, for example, I'd be wondering if somebody at the school was imposing their beliefs onto her.

She goes to a catholic school like i did.

I sort of agree with you about the fear of death and the unknown, but i don't think religion was born of it, i think that it makes people embrace religion though. If religion was made to ease the fears of death, than the Bible is a bloody good story that someone imagined up!

I'm a Christian but the thought of dieing still unnerves me, not so much the dieing but the eternal life afterwards, i think it's because the human mind cannot comprehend something that is outside time and space. I heard someone speak the other week and they said that telling a human what heaven is like, is like trying to tell an unborn child what the world is like outside the womb, which i thought was quite an apt description!

Do you believe in science.

I don't mean absolute faith that science is perfect. I just mean that do you believe science has the best possible answers to the questions that we have on where we come from, space, time, the big bang and all that shizzle? I mean that although we know so little, science is doing its best and is the best answer to those difficult questions that we have RIGHT NOW.

No, of course that doesn't make you a bad person.

I disagree strongly though with a child being taught about burning in hell. Hell is not a concept a child can even begin to grasp and if a child can, it's not particularly nice. I remember being terrified of it as a child and that using hell as a means of indocrination (believe this or burn in hell) is wrong. Merciful god my arse. Sanctimonious egotist maybe.

For the record, as a child I went to Sunday School, I went to church and I read the bible. Only I always thought it was a bit stupid and in the end the vicar asked my parents to stop bringing me along. (I was still secretly terrified of hell though, such was the indoctrination. I even recall praying without truly knowing why, simply in the hope someone or something wouldn't set fire to me or my family.)

True, but then nearly all primary schools are linked with churches (CofE or Catholic). It's not as if it's cult like and all kids grow up to be devout Christians.

agree that the fear of death makes people embrace religion.i also do believe the bible is a story made up,well many stories by many people.it's changed over the years.

nobody can tell you what heaven is like as nobody alive has seen it.i dont think anyone dead has either but that's irrelivant to your point. i respect your beliefs,but i wont ever share them.

Surely religion was born to answer the questions that couldn't be answered at the time. It is only relatively recently that we've been able to scientifically explain things, such as evolution the big bang and all that shit. Those explanations weren't there thousands of years ago so they came up with one, religion.

FFS What a subject for a football forum. Not even bothered to read the thread. Slow day at home was it?

Yeah i do agree with science it is clearly the way of explaining the world in my opinion. I would like to think though that by me being not stupid enough to believe in the burning in hell etc as barry says and and just being able to take certain aspects of what i was taught in regards to religion into everyday life it doesn't hurt.

Fwiw i don't believe in god as such it's hard to explain really but i do believe it's ok to have faith in the religion.

I think that the bible is made up is common knowledge. I believe it was the Roman Emporer Constantine who was about when it was re-written, just a bunch of stories put together to please the masses at that time.

Easter, for example, is a pagan festival. It was just written into the bible at the time to keep the pagans happy.

Very slow thanks. I believe this is in the general discussion bit though.Is that lost on you?

GEN ER AL DIS CU SSION

By that do you mean belief in god or a way of life?

But then i guess you'd have to ask why so many millions/billions of people around the world still believe it even in the face of science being able to explain quite a lot? They must have some spiritual feelings or something that makes them believe in God.

And then you can also go right down to the foundations of science, we still don't know what happened at the big bang or what was around before it, or why it happened and who did it?! Science can explain how something has happened, not why it happened or who instigated it, if anyone.

Way of life.

Not lost, just thought that it is a pretty boring and pointless question. As a consequence I will leave you to your discussion

say there is a god,which god is the real one? they can't all exist can they?
if there are more than one they'd bound to be blowing the shit out of each other and fighting innit?

Well there's obviously nothing bad about a way of life where people treat each other with respect and stuff, it's better for your girl than a lot of alternatives.

But I still stand by my statement that my girl won't need some book to know right from wrong (that's not intended as a dig)

the God muslims, christians, jews and sikhs believe in is the same one. Religions like hinduism believe in many, so i guess you can't really explain that. I'm not sure if hinduism has a religious book or what it's origins are though?

But

As a father. If my girl came home talking about stuff that I thought was nonsense, I would definitely put a stop to it there and then.

And I do find myself having to do it from time to time.

Would you mind if she decided to become Christian when she was older as she gets mature enough to make her own decision? Is it just that they teach it at a young age that bothers you?

Like someone once said, "We're all atheists in the eyes of another religion. I just happen to believe in one less god than you."

So it's wrong for someone else (i.e. a school) to 'impose' beliefs on your daughter, but it's ok for you to?

She'll be smart enough to make her own mind up. But I'd like her to have a mind of her own before she does that

I believe that we cannot possibly know anything.

Am I wrong?

Which one of you cunts is a vicar

No, I didn't say you were wrong, but I just think you're a bit hypocritical.

I don't know if that makes you a lefty or a fascist.

Some very good points here.

Thanks.

Thats a fair enough point, but if she wasn't taught about religion at school, and you weren't willing to tell her about it yourself, then she'd never get the chance to make her own mind up?


But not knowing something doesn't mean it's not true, religion is about faith, am i wrong?

Yes. Beam me up Scotty!

Rapture: Believers perplexed after prediction fails

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13489641

Don't know why they're perplexed, I can explain it to them - you're all a bunch of twats.

She is growing up in Thailand. She is surrounded by religion.


I do believe I have already pointed out I am not an atheist

Because I object to my daughter being taught stuff that has been shown to be factually wrong?

That's not what I said.

You're going to have to spell it out for me

Samdy

I think you are mistaking me for an atheist. I have already said that my girl can make her own mind up when she is old enough for her mind to her her own.

I dislike religion and I do object to it. But I don't understand how objecting to indoctrination of young children makes me a hypocrite

And if you think I am imposing my beliefs on my daughter, I re-iterate.  She can make her own mind up when she is mature enough to do so.

Thanks. That's all.

If indeed its indoctrination thats not right, but I'm sure most schools are well aware these days to not present religion as a set of incontravertible facts, particularly as they are invariably dealing with multi-cultural communities with a variety of faiths (as well as agnostic and atheist parents).
From my observation most kids are able to grow up with a balanced view of the world and equipped to make up their own minds as they mature.  This may involve exploring ideas and even embracing religion to a degree for a temporary or longer period.
I've always made my opinions abundantly clear to my kids and so has my wife (though they're not the same) and they've grown up as mature independently minded individuals who I wouldn't say have been brainwashed by either of their parents or any particular outside influences.  In short the most important message to give is that they are free to make up their own minds - well that's my opinion anyway!

Let's rewind a bit

If any religious institute could pose a reasonable argument that they are right, or even a bit right, then I would be all ears.

I think I'm in for a very, very long wait.

But surely you know this is all about opinions - why else is it referred to as faith?  There can't and won't be any firm evidence either way (unless you're bringing in creationism) so live and let live.

Though I must say that I do object to the believers who think that its so important to persuade others that their views are the truth.

Why doesn't anyone worship the Greek or Roman gods anymore?

I'm a Christian, as many will know from previous threads like this. Some interesting discussions here, although nothing beyond the usual half-baked arguments from both sides of the debate really.

My parents aren't Christian, I didn't go to church as a child, I wasn't taught anything about the Bible... but as a teenager I started learning about the Bible and it made sense to me.

Just as an observation on the discussion so far, I'd say most of the objections people have to the Bible are for the following reasons...

1) They don't understand what it's saying - the message being conveyed, the point of each book of the Bible, the key ideas... Part of my job is to spend time studying the Bible in-depth pretty muich every day of the week, and I still don't claim to have a particularly amazing grasp on a lot of it
2) They make assumptions about where the texts come from and how it was put together without ever actually finding out the facts
3) They forget that it's centre point is the reports on the life, death and resurrection of a bloke called Jesus

These three are of course all linked, and as I mentioned before, I think that poor Bible teaching is largely to blame. The same could be said for the crazy right-wing Bible belt weirdos in the US, as well as anybody who thinks they can predict when the rapture will happen.

I do

I have a penchant for Bacchus

Ahh Bacchus. The Miami drug dealer you have to kill in Driver 3 . Good memories.

I just wanted to post some XTC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk41Gbjljfo


(I also happen to strongly agree with the sentiment behind the song)

Fucking hell. A TEF bible basher just waiting for the right moment to pounce!

Reevsy, sorry to shatter your illusion, but you're full of shit. The bible is a tome of complete bollocks, literally made up to control the populace at the time.

Virgin birth? Yeah, right. More like some old slapper who took one on the sly.

Some old dude sitting up top, watching eveyone (at the same fucking time, no less), waiting to cast them into hell if they do wrong or don't conform to his list of 10 sins? Bullshit.

Grow some balls, face life, yourself and the world, form your own opinions and stop peddling ancient bullshit.

Religious beliefs have caused and continue to cause bad things to happen in the world.  Noone can dispute that.  So have a lot of other things.  That's because they involve human beings, and we tend to fight each other over things we think are important.  And the problem with religion (in all its forms) is that it is about ultimate truth; and actually, despite all the obvious problems over recent years (Ireland, Al Qaeda, Israel/Palestine, weird American Christian sects which preach hatred), there has been huge progress in understanding between different faiths, and generally they are forces for good rather than bad in the world.  Just look at how many of the organisations working in our communities have grown from Christian roots.  Schools are an intersting case.  People are queueing up to get into faith schools.  Proselytising is not allowed in schools, but introducing children to what the different faiths believe and why is not unreasonable.  But actually I don't think parents want to get their children into church schools because of the religious education.  Rather it is because the overall standard of care for their children is deemed to be good.  I wish that was so in every school, and I personally do not think church schools are a good thing.  I would rather that Christian (or other faith) teachers brought whatever it is that is good into every school as a service to the community.

But as to the truth.....well, its different from fact.  I live in the hope there is more to life than what we experience here, and that the possibility of some sort of fulfilment, as an individual and for the world, does exist.  And that fulness is what I call God.

Surely if god did exist he wouldn't have let poxford have a football team

I think that God and religion are two different things and that the idea of a celestial being creating the world and all the people on it is just a ridiculous concept. 

I am very cynical when it comes to religion and believe that as an institution it has been used as a way to control, scare and manipulate the mass populace.  Religion is just a business, used to get as many customers as possible in an effort to gain power and wealth for those in charge and using its followers in an attempt to eradicate the competition.

When I was a kid I went to church of my own free will, I was also invited about ten years ago to live in a buddhist temple for a month and a half.  Most of the people I met were following the ideas passed down to them by either their parents or society without really questioning why they were going to church every sunday or kneeling and praying in front of an of Buddha.  Also most of the people were hypocrites when it came to following the rules and regulations of being a member of their chosen faith.

Does God exist?  Who really knows.  But I have faith that he doesn't and if he did he certainly wouldn't have created this fucked up world unless he was really sick and twisted and enjoyed watching suffering and pain.

 

I'm not religious at all, but wouldn't be as arrogant to dismiss a Higher Power just because I had no proof they existed.

The question of what type of God would cause all the misery in the World is simple though: If a Higher Power exists and created the World, maybe they've just left us to get on with it?

If people find comfort and solace in believing and following a religion, where's the harm? Once again it's people that corrupt and distort things, The New Testament is all about love and tolerance, I doubt those that wrote it expected it to be used in the way it has (The Crusades being just one example).

What we need to remember is live and let live, which can be summed up in this thought provoking passage:

 'Now, the world don't move to the beat of just one drum,
What might be right for you, may not be right for some.
A man is born, he's a man of means.
Then along come two, they got nothing but their jeans.

But they got, Different Strokes.
It takes, Different Strokes.
It takes, Different Strokes to move the world.

Everybody's got a special kind of story
Everybody finds a way to shine,
It don't matter that you got not alot
So what,
They'll have theirs, and you'll have yours, and I'll have mine.
And together we'll be fine....

Because it takes, Different Strokes to move the world.
Yes it does.
It takes, Different Strokes to move the world.'

Worth thinking about, eh?

What'chu talkin' 'bout?

Ha i was just going to post the same thing LR

Ah, I see some are aware of the Good Works of Arnold and Willis.

The 'virgin birth' is likely to be a translation error...'virgin' and 'young' being confused as it was spread. I think some of the bible is real. Stories about an influential speaker and cult leader are entirely plausible. The way in which the bible is interpreted, and religious practice formulated by this has been debated for centuries. I think catholicism and the papacy is the most corrupt branch of Christianity, its interpretations of the bible are self-serving and in some cases completely erroneous.

I believe in Evolution. Just need to get a Darwin fish for the back of my car to confirm this.

I believe the bible shouldn't be taken literally, but is largely based on truth, ditoted by the fact that some of it was written centuries after the events, has been translated from different languages, by people with frailties, beliefs & prejudices.  I do believe in God & The Devil, but only in so musch as we all have a good side & an evil side within us. Certainly science now disproves the literal side of the bible, & probably other religeous books too, but a lot of what is said can be explained. eg the burning bush could have been caused by spontaneous combustion. The flood did occur around the back sea area.
What I struggle with is the belief of life after death, heaven & hell, which I can't match with my scientific beliefs. It would I guess be easier to understood if we understood death. Perhaps heaven & hell is a definition of how we have lived our life & that time stands still for us at the moment of death (Like when you get an adrenaline rush)

I am not reading 8 pages of this but my input is simple.

No.

I agree with evolution too, but it doesn't answer the question of where Life originated from, does it?

I feel my work here is done.

Many thanks.

The trouble with the church is (oh bloody hell where to start !!).......

The Bible (for me) is a really well put together set of fairy tales - a lot like Father Christmas or the Tooth Fairy

So many things in the bible are open to interpretation on so many different levels.  My neighbours (Mormons) will tell you one thing and for them it is cast in stone.  For other christians the same passage will mean something completely different - but for them it is again cast in stone.

The two things cannot possibly both be right - and this is where the problem lies.  Even after scientists have disproved the theory, religious people will "poo poo" the scientists findings with a "you cannot take it literally, it is meant differently to how it was written"

This is where the church "cop out" comes - it is easy for the church to argue against the scientist and say "you do not understand" - the trouble is that the church will do ANYTHING to cling to this fairy story, and brainwash people along the way....

Another loathsome thing about religion (especially catholocism) is there insular way of denying anything wrong about the church.  For goodness sake the Pope is one of the worst offenders !  Head of the church, yet a few years ago was one of the people tasked with investigating paedophiles in the American church - the evidence was damning and overwhelming - yet he and others did their very best job to sweep it under the carpet and pretend it didn't happen.  They didn't even get rid of the biggest culprits - and now are paying the price with countless $$ paid as compensation !

In any other walk of life the wankers responsible would have been thrown in prison, and the organisation thrown to the wolves.  However because it's the church, no-one was dealt with in law and one of the culprits responsible for allowing it to continue becomes Pope !!

If that's not sick and twisted, and a damn good reason for the church to be reviled, I am not too sure what is....  

I used to believe in god as a kid, my parents aren't particularly religious, but I used to go to church every now and then.
As i've grown up, religion has played no part in my life whatsoever and I would consider myself agnostic.
I didn't get married in a church as neither my wife or I are religious.

But religion doesn't bother me, people live their life how they want and if following a religious path is how they wish to do it, as long as they don't harm anyone on the way, then there's no problem.

No, I know what you mean and this fact has at times made me wonder whether or not there is some sort of higher being that chucked a load of ingredients down and let it pan out.

How did space get there? and if that can be answered - how did the elements that created space get there? and so on....

I think god's having a press conference at 11.30 today.

Grow up mate. All you've said there is "I don't believe any of this could happen therefore I'm right, you're wrong and I'm going to put myself on a pedestal, trying to make you look 2 inches tall in the process." And from where I'm sitting you've just come across as arrogant, single-minded and totally unwilling (or perhaps unable?) to engage in discussion.

I'm not a "Bible basher" waiting to pounce. Whilst I believe in the Bible and believe it is something that everybody needs to hear, I don't go forcing it down people's throats. And I've done little different to anybody else in this thread - I've responded to the question asked in the first post, and highlighted reasons why people might disagree. I've then accepted that people who call themslves Christians are in part to blame. In fact, the only thing I've done differently is I've stopped short of abusing anybody who thinks differently to me...

I was going to reply in much the same way to him, but I would've probably resorted to calling him rude names. Thanks for saving me the time and effort.

I agree with you reeves - although slightly confused as to why the bible is something "everybody needs to hear" ??

Why ?

No, God does not exist.
Religion is a control mechanism to keep the weak minded in their place.
 :nod:

That's your opinion. It's not fact as you can neither prove or disprove his existence.
You may have a point about religion though...

No such thing as the burden of disproof buddy, hate to break it to you.

God does not exist unless anyone can prove otherwise   :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Conversley, God does exist unless you can prove otherwise.

And has anyone ever told you that excessive use of moronic smilies is the mark of a feeble mind?

I never trust a man who laughs at his own jokes

There is a good theory hidden in here (if you can be bothered to read it) :)

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/theory.html

I think Hinduism has got it right, personally.

As Eddie Izzard once said "religions are philosophies with some good ideas, and some fucking weird ones".......

.......which I tend to agree with despite being a catholic and regularly attending mass.

What I believe in is faith - and I use the church as a means of exercising that faith. I like the fact that I have something else to believe in and something that I get strength from when things are tough.

Do I think that god is a beardy bloke sat on a cloud ? er no... do I think there is a higher power that we refer to as god ? Yes.

Before you chose to shoot me down let me say this - I don't judge people for not believing or for believing in other things. I don't try and convince people that they are wrong - I happy that people believe what they want. I watch documentaries like Brian Cox's and I am amazed by them and the things I learn from them.

But does it change my "faith" - no. For me its not about who did what when and how, its about how I chose to live my life.

they have now  :gay:

But the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it - it proves that god exists therefore he doesn't

God does exist, and he runs a sports shop in Old Town :)

I've dealt with the god squad first hand, I know how futile it is to try and rationalise with these people. They've either been brainwashed since birth, or their weak mindedness does not allow them to accept reality. It is the perfect defense mechanism, as evidenced by the god nut above using the old "prove he doesn't exist" line.

The trouble with using that line is it has no place in reality, therefore makes you look a bit detached from the real world, or as I like to call it, "religious"

Try using that defence in court when you're up on a murder charge, again I've seen it first hand and I can guarantee the "god told me to do it" doens't go very far in the burden of proof stakes.

I wouldn't mind so much if these nutters kept themselves to themselves but they cannot help themselves ramming their fairytale ideology down everyones throats at every opportunity.  :badmood:

A bit like the Harry Potter Brigade. Try telling them it's not real  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Just deleted a previous post of mine.

It gets so fucking confusing at times when people keep changing their avatars.

I'm not religious in the slightest. I class myself as an agnostic which is someone who accepts the possibility of a higher power. Calling me a 'God nut' has entirely missed my point. (But then, as you come across as a total dick, with no interest in anyone's opinion but your own, it's not surprising).

No one on here has tried to jam their opinion down anyone's throat. Apart from the few, like you, who are so far up their own arse they believe they've got the definitive answer to something that can't, definitively, be answered.

You're a prick and a tiresome one.

Now you're resorting to insults, the mark of a feeble mind by the way  :sherlock:

Using your previous example, I say you're a god nut - prove you're not.

Let's try this........

For what reason(s) do you think that there is no god?

Q: How was the universe created?
A: Created in the micro-seconds immediately following the Big Bang.

Q: So what started the Big Bang?
A: [Insert answer here]

Science is, at present, unable to provide an answer to that question because the laws of nature/physics as we currently understand them only came in to being themselves immediately after the Big Bang.  (If you go back a little further to the time of the singularity itself, the laws break down.)

So until it is possible to explain how the event that created the universe was started itself, I think it is entirely reasonable to invoke an intervention of some kind from an outside influence.  To some, that outside influence is a god.  And the belief in a god is, contrary to Wiggler's assertion, very much grounded in reality.

Wiggler, you do yourself no favours at all by deriding those who disagree with your views.  Some religious people are nutters, I'll grant you, but not all by any means.  I can promise you that there are folk on both sides of this argument who are a damned sight more intelligent than you are.

What do you mean by god? A man in the clouds? I've been on a lot of planes and never seen anyone sat up there  :eek:

I do however believe in the talking polar bear that lives in my garden. but he's never there when anyone comes round. That doesn't prove he doesn't exist though, because I say he does.
 ;D

Haven't we got 10 pages of those with some kind of faith explaining what they mean by God? And how many of them said 'man in the clouds'?

Grow up.

It's up to you how you define god.

What makes you so sure that there is no god, whatever that may be to you?

Wait a minute you're twisting my melon man, are you derren brown or something? or at the least a top clinical psychologist :zzz:

It's these catchall phrases like "it's up to you how you define god" or "god moves in mysterious ways" or some other such wishy washy bullshit which are at the cornerstone of  the church and organised religion.

Answering a question with a question is biblebasher 101 and sort of proves the point...

 :fishing:

Which just goes to confirm that this topic is way too profound for you.

I can guarantee there are zero people on the god squad side of the argument approaching anything near my level of intelligence  :sherlock:

On the real world side, it's possible, although I haven't seen any evidence of that on here yet so I'd say not. Until I see proof to the contrary  :hmmm:

Surely this is a troll?

What a fucking tool.

You hadn't got that already? He's The_Plagiarist.

Doh!

I saw that mentioned in another thread. What a fool I've been

Dont feel bad BR, the man is a complete and utter prick, ignore the twat and hopefully he will disappear up his own arse in a cloud of smoke

Extremely surprising to see foggy here to lay the boot in and throw around personal insults!  :doh:

Safety in numbers eh fog, less of the insults please you sour old cunt  >:(

Cunt

I wonder if God is playing the Sims. He probably laughed his ass off when Ben took a shit in an alley and lost his clothes

:)

I think he's hilarious.

Shame there is always a twat on hand to fuck up a good debate....

well i did this morning when i had my breakfast. The fucking cunt appeared on my toast and put me right off. Now i am starving and too scared to eat just in case he manifests into my coco pops.

Good question. Basically, the message of Jesus was "you need me or you're screwed" - everybody should have the chance to hear that message (or perhaps the more eloquently put versions of it in the gospels!) then they can make their own mind up on it. If I believed he taught that yet I didn't care about other people hearing it, I'd be a right dick.

Not going to read through all these pages, but my answer to the question is yes.

 ;D

i'm going to watch Stigmata and let that shape my opinion

You're good at calling people who don't agree with your point of view rude names, eh Herthab?


I've read your posts since I made my comments earlier, Reevsy. You ARE a bible basher. No mistake.

Like it or lump it, I happen to think religion is bullshit. Ditto God.

No one has, or probably ever will, prove it. Just because half the planet subscribe to something that is / was indoctrinated in them from birth, at home and in formal or religious 'education', does not make it true or real.

You may think I'm arrogant. I don't give a fuck.

For the record, I do believe in the human spirit - as in there probably is something more to us than just what we experience in life and through our body. That's it though. I dont cling onto it, it's just a hunch which could equally be as much bollocks as your organised religion!

Shouty Text edited.

i don't think there's any need to make it that personal matey...are you one of the futile few that shout or argue at the blokes in town centres when they're trying to help us (from the christian and repentance point of view)?

Why the shouty posting?

Stop shouting

Is deltaincline pissed perchance?

i hope so

good thread, ive always been interested in stuff like this and i watch it on the documentary channels if its good enough to hold my attention.

i would consider myself agnostic/atheist as i am pretty scepical about most things. but as someone did mention i believe there may be something after death but these are only from personal expieriences.

This is just out of interest BTW as ive never read the bible and really dont have any intention of doing so, but what to people think about the stuff that was kept out of the bible and hidden because of what people might of thought cant remember what exactly but some-one must know what im on about  :)

I think there was something saying that christians didn't have to go to church to worship God but that they could do it anywhere, anytime, but the Church didn't want this revealed as then they thought people wouldn't attend church?

I'm probably talking total rubbish btw!

I've never got round to looking at the stuff that was left out in too much detail - all I really know is that it was the stuff thought unreliable, largely because of the people it was written by, the lack of reliable copies of the original documents, and the fact it didn't really match up with the rest of the new testament

that's the fun twist in the film stigmata, it's apparently the gospel of thomas

I do enjoy the irony of non-religous people forcing their beliefs onto others

what do you believers make of the old testiment? surely that has to be believed too?

Why?

same book innit.if you believe in the bible then shouldn't that be in it's entirety.

Still no.

I disagree.  It's absolutist nonsense like this that skews the whole debate...the assumption that everyone is in one camp or the other and either believes in everything or nothing.

What I do believe is that there is a higher being or force out there.  I believe this because there are certain physical fundamentals that cannot be explained by science alone.  (And I have a science degree...I'm not blinkered.)  There are many leading academics who also take this view.  My earlier post in this thread that touched (very briefly) on the origin of the universe is one such fundamental.

What this does not mean is that I then have to believe every story from an ancient text written by people who lived thousands of years ago whose perspective was very different from our own.  It staggers me that people would assume that I do.  It makes about as much sense as telling someone they must believe in the Loch Ness Monster because they also believe that Scotland exists.

Don't you go telling me Nessy is some sort of myth.....

Nessy is real, and Nessy is aceness !!!

A lot of it simply didn't fit in with the story those in charge wanted it to tell.  The most obvious example of this is the insinuation that the Jews were responsible for Jesus' death, because the bible was compiled for a Roman audience who probably wouldn't take too well to hearing that they'd killed the son of god.

You really have to take all of it with a huge pinch of salt, getting what you can out of the gospels without taking them at face value.  There are some great lessons in there.  The Old Testament on the other hand is such a contridiction of Jesus' teaching that it should really be dismissed outright by any thinking person.  

For STFCBath -

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matthew 18:20

This is line that is used to hammer it into people that they have to go to church to be with God, even though God is supposedly all-seeing, all-knowing and all-powerful.  If you didn't have to go to church for God to be there, then how would they get to control people?

I think it's more a case of standing up to religion. Religion has forced itself onto everyone for generations and got very rich as a result. It's about time those who oppose it stand up and be counted and not sit around passively and let religion wade through our world without anyone keeping it in check. It's been exempt from criticism and opposition for too long.

Some might say it's no different than the religious telling others how to think or self-righteously proclaiming they own the moral high-ground, and in a way it isn't, but it's providing balance and ensuring religion doesn't have free reign. It's showing an alternative does exist and that there are many people that don't believe you'll burn in hell because you've upset a tyrannical egotist for finding "his book" a bit flimsy.

for me to believe in it i would have to in it's entirety.that is why i don't as it's full of ridiculous contradictions that become more far fetched by the day. my question was genuine.i find many christians take the bits they want and discount the bits they dont.for something so massive as a belief in god it has to overwhelm every other explanation out there.it doesn't do that for me, but i'm curious to see what genuine believers think.

I'be been thinking about this irony/hypocrisy as well, and I too ain't having it.

If somebody was to say that water runs uphill, we'd say proof it or STFU, and rightly so
If somebody said seriously that the moon is made of cheese we'd say proof or STFU, and rightly so.

If somebody the world is x,000 years old and was made in 7 days we are well in our rights to say proof or STFU.

And I for one don't buy the whole "The bible is open to interpretation" crap. That's a cop out. For so long it was preached as fact and when science makes this so called fact untenable, it is then open to interpretation. What gets me is that if god made the Earth and stuff, he'd know about these things himself. So why is the bible so full of errors.

It's not like taking a stand in politics where what's right or wrong is largely a matter of opinion. It's about logic, reason and fact. That man evolved from other apes, for example, is not just opinion. It is a matter of fact based on an incredible amount of solid evidence.

that's how i feel about it too bangkok.

i do think reeves took undue abuse and insults in this thread from certain parties. i dont agree with his views but i respect them.

The bible, and particularly the Old Testament, was written at a time when scientific understanding was less developed than it is now.  For someone to propose that the earth (or universe) was created in the space of 7 days several thousand years ago was, at the time, a reasonable attempt at explaining the origin of the earth.  Now it isn't.  The only people who believe in a literal interpretation of the Genesis these days are too dogmatic to be taken seriously.  As I said before, however, it is entirely rational, in my view, for someone to believe in a god while not believing in an Old Testament interpretation given by someone 3,000 or 4,000 years ago.

Interestingly, the question about the origin of the universe that Genesis was attempting (badly) to explain, remains.  If Genesis was being written today, the author most likely would not be writing about a creation in the space of 7 days, but about the possibility or likelihood of a divine intervention to create (in a space of nano-seconds) the singularity that led to the Big Bang.

To answer BR's point, I don't see this as a 'cop out' in any way.  Large parts of the Old Testament are both incorrect and irrelevant, in my view.  I could not really be any clearer about that.  But I'll come back to my original point.  Having the humility to recognise that right now, in 2011, we do not know everything should not be seen as shocking, in my view.  And in my view, the existence of a higher force that we cannot see or fully understand is the best attempt I have had to rationalise the things we don't (and probably can't ever) know.  This does not mean, however, that I have to buy in to a literal interpretation of a text from thousands of years ago that drearily explained who begat who.

It is a cop out though.......

For so long it was preached the world was x thousand years old, as hard fact. Until the day somebody could say: "well, carbon dating proves otherwise"

Instead of religion coming back with a counter argument, they just say "well, it's open to interpretation". How convenient that all of a sudden things can now be open to interpretation whereas for so long before people were burned at the stake for not following the bible absolutely.

Who are 'they' and who is 'religion'?  Yes, there are religious people, some in positions of (religious) authority, who tell you that passages of the bible are open to interpretation.  Others, probably a majority, simply don't believe some of the passages.

Contrary to arriba's earlier point that it is hypocritical to pick & choose the bits you want to believe, I would argue that it would be idiotic for any intelligent, rational thinking human being to do otherwise.  When you reduce an entire body of people - numbering more than a billion, possibly - to 'they' or 'religion', and assume that 'they' all believe in the same thing, with no nuances, you simply demonstrate that you have no interest in attempting to understand the thought processes of the people you are debating with.  And that, in turn, kind of kills the debate.

I have never heard any religious person ever say they don't believe in parts of their bible, never. Always just "it's open to interpretation" or "god works in mysterious ways". Not saying it doesn't happen though.

Just because I may be generalizing does not mean that I am unable to take part in this discussion, it seems like a straw man argument to me.

And if people are just picking and choosing the parts of the bible that they like, surely that means they are then interpreting the bible as whole as they see fit.

You have now.


Absolutely.  Anything wrong with that?

Yes. It's a cop out

this is going nowhere.i'm not posting anymore in this thread.

No it isn't.

I'm with arriba.  This is going nowhere.

:D

Couldn't help it could you.

I believe in Jesus.

Was quite a religious lad in my teens, and then had serious doubts about his existence.

About 6 years ago, and a loved one very ill, I needed hope, I started to pray again and it gave me strength to get through some very difficult times.

:)

Follow the gourd

This I can understand

They are not insults, they are facts. I can stand on my own 2 feet thank you, i dont need safety in numbers, now go and do something constructive during half term

[url width=439 height=700]http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llhy07lpTV1qz4a42o1_500.png[/url]

just because someone choses to have different belief system to your own doesn't mean you can be downright nasty and vindictive

Yeah wiggy

You're not allowed to voice an opinion against religion, it's nasty and vindictive.

Its an argument I have stayed out of - just stumbled across the picture and thought it was quite apt given the debated about politics and religion on here over the last week or so.

I was being sarcastic toward somebody else you tool ;)

Doh

voice an opinion by all means - maybe just do it without belittling others ?

But hang on. Don't Town fans LIKE fascists now?

wow Dorset - that must have taken a while to troll through days of posts to find something you can throw at people.....

Here we go again springs to mind....

I like what I hear from PDC YES - if that means I like fascists then I guess you are right........

Shut the door on your way out though eh ?

I did believe in God but stopped believing when he left us to manage Chelsea.

He's back Leefer. Only he's Italian now

:D

I hope so Red.

How is this thread still going on?

Someone's willing to pay to take Prutton off our hands-therefore,yes.

Gods work Berniman.

Well he is the son of god, perhaps god had a hand in this.

Thankyou

Well, he wasn't the son of God, he was a very naughty boy

Should I resist the temptation to join in again????  Yes, except to say to whoever quoted 'Monty Python's Life of Brian', as one who is in the 'Yes to God' camp....it was the best and most accurate piece of satire about what believers do to religion that has ever been made.

Stop mooching about for praise for starting an interesting topic you melt, you didn't see Jesus poncing about looking for a pat on the fucking back did you?

He just got a load of impressionable chumps to bang on about him for over 2000 years - if you can achieve such cult status I will withdraw my criticism (assuming I live that long).

Amen to that!