Let's Get Political!

[pauld]

Sorry disagree again. A referendum has the same legal status as an opinion poll.

Same legal status maybe, but opinion polls are always partial and skewed, not a full representation of the electorate. Having dragged us all out to the polls to vote on what was sold as a straight "in/out" vote, not a consultation exercise, it would take an MP with an interesting interpretation of "representative" to defy that.

[Ardiles]

Sorry disagree again. A referendum has the same legal status as an opinion poll. I'd consider it the civic duty of an MP to ignore the 'Will Of The People' if that will was causing major harm to the country.

And if the electorate disagree, they can vote said MP out at the next election.

Politicians repeating the 'will of the people' line would do well to remember that the referendum vote was followed by a General Election the following year.  The referendum result provided a mandate to leave the EU, but said nothing about how that should be achieved.  The General Election that followed, however, was explicitly billed as a 'back me' call by Theresa May to facilitate a hard Brexit - and the electorate decided not to.

There is no mandate for a hard Brexit.  As a strategy, it is backed neither by Parliament or by 'the people'.  The likes of Rees-Mogg have been relatively quiet in recent days.  I think the penny is starting to drop.

[pauld]

The likes of Rees-Mogg have been relatively quiet in recent days.  I think the penny is starting to drop.

I wouldn't hold your breath. The penny rarely drops for the likes of Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Fox and their ilk. They will all soon be back braying at their loudest and when they've made a complete arse-fuck of the whole Brexit process they'll be braying even louder that they were "betrayed" (but not by their own vanity and incompetence)

[chalkies_shorts]

Same legal status maybe, but opinion polls are always partial and skewed, not a full representation of the electorate. Having dragged us all out to the polls to vote on what was sold as a straight "in/out" vote, not a consultation exercise, it would take an MP with an interesting interpretation of "representative" to defy that.

Agree. It was a straight shoot out - in or out. Nothing advisory, hence the skewed rhetoric and total bullshit on both sides. Does anyone think Obama was wheeled out for an advisory opinion poll? The people voted in good faith. Enough shittiness has been said from both sides about others who voted the other way but its 1 vote per eligible person not one vote for someone who votes the same way as me and others are retards and don't understand the full argument.
There is talk about people not knowing what they voted for and that is quite patronising on both sides of the argument, Did those who voted to stay understand what they were voting for?
The bottom line is that not one person in the world knows how this is going to play out. Once we know the actual deal we can start working out the implications good and bad. It may be good it may be bad, nobody knows on either side of the argument.
I said at the start that we will not be allowed to leave the EU and I can still see that being the case. I suspect Parliament will not vote through whatever deal is put forward and we won't go off a cliff edge. What it does do is hand the EU the negotiation on a plate regardless of how well or how badly we play our hand.
Whichever way it goes it is difficult to see how all levels of democracy can be served.

[horlock07]

What it does do is hand the EU the negotiation on a plate regardless of how well or how badly we play our hand.

I cannot be bothered to go through it all again, however to pick up on this point, that ship sailed 12-18 months ago, its not a negotiation - our leaders posture and bullshit a bit and then capitulate as the EU have experts dealing with it who understand and interpret the laws and treaties that we signed up to (and in many cases actually instigated).

Thus we have had every opportunity to come up with a solution to the Irish border issue, our side have failed to suggest anything beyond micro-chipping us all and some bollocks regarding drones, this just doesn't work and thus to move things forward the EU have set a fall back position, which reflects the fall back that our government have also stated yet the government are now bitching about it and the crackpots in the DUP who have May over a barrel are suggesting that the EU are bullying them.

First rule of negotiation in any process is to set out in writing and detail what you want and how you can practically achieve it, we have never done this and its always down to the EU to put things in writing (which immediately gives them the upper hand) whilst our leaders just engage in a cock waving contest for Daily Mail Readers...

And sadly the EU have much bigger cocks in this process than the UK government - and they know it!

[Reg Smeeton]

I said at the start that we will not be allowed to leave the EU and I can still see that being the case.

We leave the EU in March 2019.  The transition deal of 2 years, increases the time scale of how adjustments might be made, on both sides of the Channel...... Manche/English and Irish. This is important as so far as anyone can tell we've done fuck all at our end. 

 

[horlock07]

We leave the EU in March 2019.  The transition deal of 2 years, increases the time scale of how adjustments might be made, on both sides of the Channel...... Manche/English and Irish. This is important as so far as anyone can tell we've done fuck all at our end. 

 

I think the plan for the nutjobs is to make sure we depart in March 2019, and fuck the consequences as it will nigh impossible to get us back in after that date. Then the Rees Moggs of this world can take their cash and leave it to the plebs like you and I to try and deal with the subsequent clusterfuck.

[donkey]

Cameron may well be judged as the worst Prime Minister ever, although May could push him close.  Lord North, also Eton and Oxford, who lost the American colonies, is considered a contender.

I would add the architect of the Munich Agreement needs consideration, too.

[Reg Smeeton]

I would add the architect of the Munich Agreement needs consideration, too.

Certainly if you're Czech... mind my old Czech lady friend's family did alright eventually as the ethnic Germans were moved out of the Sudetenland, at the end of the war and their property handed over to Czechs.

I have a bit of sympathy for Chamberlain.... in the late 30's I don't think there was an appetite for another war after 14-18.

OK, ultimately he failed to prevent a conflict, but his failure was driven by honourable motives.

[donkey]

Certainly if you're Czech... mind my old Czech lady friend's family did alright eventually as the ethnic Germans were moved out of the Sudetenland, at the end of the war and their property handed over to Czechs.

I have a bit of sympathy for Chamberlain.... in the late 30's I don't think there was an appetite for another war after 14-18.

OK, ultimately he failed to prevent a conflict, but his failure was driven by honourable motives.

I don't disagree with your final paragraph, but given he set out to avoid war and played a large role in creating the largest war ever, I think it's hard to be anything other than critical.

[Reg Smeeton]

I don't disagree with your final paragraph, but given he set out to avoid war and played a large role in creating the largest war ever, I think it's hard to be anything other than critical.

I think it's right to question Chamberlain's legacy...but I would argue that war was caused more by the German and Italian people allowing the virus of fascism to infect their body politic. Despite there being then, as now, fascist elements within the media and establishment, Neville wasn't one of them.

[donkey]

I think it's right to question Chamberlain's legacy...but I would argue that war was caused more by the German and Italian people allowing the virus of fascism to infect their body politic. Despite there being then, as now, fascist elements within the media and establishment, Neville wasn't one of them.

I don't disagree with that either, all fair points.

[horlock07]

Same legal status maybe....

So how do you want to play this then, I for one like living in a country where the law is interpreted for what it actually says, not what someone in power wants it to say just because they fucked up (either accidentally or on purpose) its drafting and adoption, whilst this government have been happily prepared to use SI's regularly to circumvent parliament on something like this basically giving the government the opportunity (and precedent) to just make it up to suit their ideological agenda and purposes sets a dangerous set of circumstances in effect - down that road lives Mr dictator and his mates... They have had 2 years to sort this out (nothing to stop they just tagging a clause onto the back of the A50 bill) and have chosen not to address it, instead just waving their cocks around and talking bollocks.

Its nice to see in that Fox now considers parliament to be merely a 'procedural device', I imagine such disdain for parliamentary sovereignty would be a hanging offence if it were not being expressed by a hard right wing MP, plus when you read and hear Rees Mogg whining and bitching about the Lords just remember that he led a Tory back bench rebellion against Lords reform 6 years ago, which coincidentally also included both Bernard Jenkin and a certain Mr D Davis, I wonder whats changed their minds.....

Karma can be a right bitch can't it.  

[pauld]

I don't disagree with most of what you say. The flaw here is the decision in the first place to hold a referendum that wasn't legally binding and wasn't clear, leaving an unholy mess to resolve. But it doesn't alter the fact that the majority of people who voted in that referendum voted to leave the EU. Parliament trying to overturn delay or otherwise get round that via backdoor shenannigans just look like a stitch-up along the lines of "We gave you a vote but you got the wrong answer so we're going to ignore you" and that plays into the hands of those who seek to undermine parliamentary democracy. There's a reason the Russians pumped money and bots into Brexit as enthusiastically as they did Trump. There's a reason the far right backed both.

[pauld]

Incidentally anyone had a kitchen sink chucked at them by power-hungry lefties in recent days?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/02/labour-throwing-kitchen-sink-at-swindon-election