Let's Get Political!

[pauld]

I'm just trying to add a bit of balance to the argument where there has been talk of Russian interference and alleged but yet unproven provision of funds.

Not quite the same is it? Where Soros has donated to Remain, it's been done in the open, whereas the Russian interference has been via the back door, as in the US. Then too, there's the question of motive - Soros has opnely stated his motives in backing Remain is that he wants an open Europe; the Russians' motives are rather more murky but the overall strategy in Europe and the US seems to be largely aimed at destabilising the West's pillars of strength (as they see it, you may disagree). But mainly the far right love to blame Soros for all their woes because he's Jewish and the far right (like the far left these days) do love a good Jewish conspiracy, hence the "Jews will not replace us" of the Charlottesville marchers and the Christchurch massacre terrorist. Not suggesting you're swimming in those waters Chalkies but if you're finding yourself reading a lot of stuff repeatedly pointing the finger at Soros, you might want to question the sources and their motives

[Flashheart]

Most of the Soros conspiracy theories are in Icke territory.

[chalkies_shorts]

I couldn't give a shit what religion Soros is. I didn't even know he was jewish. The fact is he is a foreign national donating openly to the remain side. I haven't got a clue what his motives are. They may very well be altruistic, haven't got a clue.
I also haven't got a clue about the far right stuff you are talking about. I also couldn't give much of a shit about it.
As for the Russians, I don't actually doubt it but I'm not sure it has been proven so are allegations at this stage.
Both are foreign influences on brexit, that's all im trying to say and there will be others and it is to be expected on both sides.
I'm making no statements of right or wrong just that there is interference on both sides whether open or closed.

[dogs]

In fairness to Dogs (OP) - the path we should be on is for ever closer integration and that should include the currency aspect.  We, as a Nation, just keep putting it off.  I'd like a Vote for completely In or completely Out.  Stop pretending to people around the goals of the EU, and equally, show the people what being Out really means.  It's the constant half hearted pro-Europe efforts for a generation that have created the path for people want to get out, layered on top of that is the negative stuff, so the case for being IN has never been made.

Indeed. There needs to be transparency to the debate on both sides of each position. What I’ve mainly seen since the 2016 referendum is an out and out attack on the leave position/direction of travel (rightly or wrongly) with little focus on why there was so much opposition prior to and continuing to be a member of the EU where it comes to the future plans for the bloc.

It's not plausible to think that we can effectively remain as a half-arsed member, half in, half out ad infinitum. It would be naive to think we can, especially after our glaring weaknesses have now been exposed for the rest of the world and most importantly the EU, to see.

Eventually a decision will need to be made around our commitment to the areas I have mentioned. You could argue that a ‘remainer’ who wants to only remain on existing terms is themselves showing a degree of euro-sceptism, because you would have to ask why they are opposed to full integration. Until this debate is truly had, I fully expect continuous division and sceptism to continue.

[Berniman]

So those who voted remain (in the referendum on the EU) were actually voting for different version of remain?

If the option was on the ballot paper I would have voted for a different version of remain.  It wasn't, hence shows that the referendum was badly thought out and delivered.  Cheers Dave.

[horlock07]

As Bankski is getting a mention, http://rainbowsandlollipops.net/bad-boys-of-brexit-arron-banks/

[pauld]

I couldn't give a shit what religion Soros is. I didn't even know he was jewish.

I didn't say you did, in fact I explicitly said I didn't think you were swimming in those waters. I said that if you find a lot of the stuff you are reading is flagging up Soros, it's quite often used as a dogwhistle by people with much murkier motives into Jewish conspiracy territory, so maybe start to question where the people who are saying that are actually coming from. Are they really supporting Brexit or using it as an entry point/recruiting tool for the far right?

I'm making no statements of right or wrong just that there is interference on both sides whether open or closed.

Well yeah. There always has been, since the Cold War. What has changed is that the advent of social media has given much more powerful tools to malignant forces that wish to manipulate or wreck democracy - look at the damage inflicted on our body politic, the US and many European democracies over the last 5 years and ask yourself who is benefiting from this?

[chalkies_shorts]

I think its quite valid to talk about Soros donating £800k to Remainer parties without being a right wing nut job or Russian troll. All i was doing was stating a verifiable fact that he himself has admitted - no need for me to go searching through dodgy websites. I wouldn't even know where to look. As for his motives, I don't actually care. I'm sure there are equally shitty left wing sites agitating as there are right wing. Lucky, I dont read either. Why would you when you can get your news from here. Maybe tans needs to branch out into Brexit related news.
I expect people to throw money at this shit and try and use it to their own ends. The world is a lot smaller. Its just that some people believe money thrown at Remainers is altruistic but money thrown at leave malevalent. Unfortunately, unlike the 50s movies, the goodies don't wear white and the baddies black.

[RobertT]

I am not so sure the money spent by either side did much more than entrench people.

The 40 years of undermining the EU for political gain at home was the biggest problem the "Remain" side faced, many of whom were involved in that very effort to undermine.  Layer on top the Daily Mail gang, who were not just anti-EU but anti-anything non "British", and you had a very shaky foundation on which to build a pro-active campaign to get people to support being in the EU.

Being in the EU means many of the things people are scared of.  Instead of building a positive case for integration, we spent 40 years trying to tell everyone it was ok, we didn't need to worry about all the scary stuff because we could opt out.  So at best they were told it's not as bad as you think and at worst they were told it's a fucking con job, you are all going to lose your jobs because cheap Polaks are going to invade and work for free on top of somehow claiming all your benefits as well.

The fact Cameron had to go seeking a deal for staying in speaks volumes about our approach.  Instead we should be explaining why a single currency in a single trading market with freedom of movement is a good thing for people.  Let other people argue why that is bad for people and create clear distance between the two opinions (which is what they both are).  But don't try and undermine being IN then wonder why people vote OUT.

[ReadingRed]

If the option was on the ballot paper I would have voted for a different version of remain.

But the EU will change massively in the next few years anyway, so no-one knows what remain implies. One of the strongest arguments for remain I've seen is that, with the resignation of Merkel and the uncertainty around Macron, the centre of gravity is shifting and there would be a massive opportunity for Britain to fill the vacuum and lead in Europe if we wanted to accept the challenge.

[chalkies_shorts]

But the EU will change massively in the next few years anyway, so no-one knows what remain implies. One of the strongest arguments for remain I've seen is that, with the resignation of Merkel and the uncertainty around Macron, the centre of gravity is shifting and there would be a massive opportunity for Britain to fill the vacuum and lead in Europe if we wanted to accept the challenge.

I think France and Germany have the power sewn up nicely regardless of leader. We might be able to influence a few of the naughty boys like Poland or Hungary but that's it. We've always been reluctant members. In my lifetime we will never have a dominant role in the EU and less chance now.

[horlock07]

I think France and Germany have the power sewn up nicely regardless of leader. We might be able to influence a few of the naughty boys like Poland or Hungary but that's it. We've always been reluctant members. In my lifetime we will never have a dominant role in the EU and less chance now.

Sadly another Brexiteer myth.....

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/07/09/british-influence-in-brussels-had-been-far-greater-than-recognised/

It is ironic that so much we apparently hate about the EU was conceived and championed by us in the first place.....

[Wobbly Bob]

Sadly another Brexiteer myth.....

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/07/09/british-influence-in-brussels-had-been-far-greater-than-recognised/

It is ironic that so much we apparently hate about the EU was conceived and championed by us in the first place.....

Nice jumper modelled by Maggie.
I wonder if a similar pattern is available for underpants.

[BambooToTheFuture]

Nice jumper modelled by Maggie.
I wonder if a similar pattern is available for underpants.

Now that is something I could fully commit myself to!

[horlock07]

Another minister gone......