War in Europe

[Jimmy Quinn]

This has to fucking stop ASAP
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17860227/ukraine-civilians-running-irpin-artillery-refugees/

[Qunk]

Slightly worried about Zelensky’s rhetoric over the last few days. On the surface his request for a no fly zone seems reasonable, but so are NATO’s reasons for refusing. I don’t think being over-combatative is useful. Having said that, the strain the guy is under is pretty much incomprehensible to us mere mortals. Tricky one

[Batch]

I'm not surprised.  Ukraine are in a desperate position

Unless there is some kind of concession, I can't see how this ends other than a long and slow Russia 'victory'.

[Jimmy Quinn]

Without Western intervention there isn't much hope for the poor innocent people.

[Batch]

Without Western intervention there isn't much hope for the poor innocent people.

Same can be said with Western intervention

It certainly won't make less people die

[Jimmy Quinn]

Same can be said with Western intervention

It certainly won't make less people die

No but what's the answer stand back and do nothing?

[Ardiles]

Slightly worried about Zelensky’s rhetoric over the last few days. On the surface his request for a no fly zone seems reasonable, but so are NATO’s reasons for refusing. I don’t think being over-combatative is useful. Having said that, the strain the guy is under is pretty much incomprehensible to us mere mortals. Tricky one

With you here.  It will be interesting to see, years from now, how NATO's refusal to get involved directly will be viewed when the history is written.  Right now, I agree that the arguments for not getting involved directly outweigh the others.  But I worry that 2032 me may see things differently.

More immediately, I worry for Zelenskyy.  I admire him greatly.  He's doing things I never could.  He's a fucking legend of a man.  But the more of an icon he becomes, the more of an incentive there will be for horrible bastards working for Putin to take him out.  There's a huge price now on Zelenskyy's head.  If someone gets him, Ukrainian morale is going to suffer enormously.

[Qunk]

With you here.  It will be interesting to see, years from now, how NATO's refusal to get involved directly will be viewed when the history is written.  Right now, I agree that the arguments for not getting involved directly outweigh the others.  But I worry that 2032 me may see things differently.

More immediately, I worry for Zelenskyy.  I admire him greatly.  He's doing things I never could.  He's a fucking legend of a man.  But the more of an icon he becomes, the more of an incentive there will be for horrible bastards working for Putin to take him out.  There's a huge price now on Zelenskyy's head.  If someone gets him, Ukrainian morale is going to suffer enormously.

I think that if Putin, regardless of whether Ukraine is part of NATO or not, was not clearly unhinged with his finger hovering over the red button then NATO would enforce a no fly zone and maybe even put boots on the ground. I hope history recognises that. While he is unhinged with nuclear capability I think history would be a lot less kind if they did stir the pot and it lead to nuclear war even if that’s to the detriment to the Ukrainian self defence.

Totally echo your sentiments with regards to Zelensky. He’s already written himself into folklore

[Qunk]

No but what's the answer stand back and do nothing?

They aren’t doing nothing Jimmy. They are, in my opinion, doing everything they can within the realms of sanity

[Jimmy Quinn]

I get what your saying but it's not enough when innocent women and children aren't allowed to leave through a safe corridor without getting shot at in what was supposed to be a ceasefire.

[Qunk]

I get what your saying but it's not enough when innocent women and children aren't allowed to leave through a safe corridor without getting shot at in what was supposed to be a ceasefire.

Agree that is utterly disgraceful. But imagine how many more innocent people would die if Putin was pushed into launching a nuke. If that’s the NATO hangup on introducing a no fly zone I’m in agreement with that decision, as hard as it is

[Batch]

No but what's the answer stand back and do nothing?

we aren't doing nothing. We are sending defensive weapons and sanctioning them financially.

ok the uk government is fucking up the sanctions.

direct involvement is not an option

[Jimmy Quinn]

we aren't doing nothing. We are sending defensive weapons and sanctioning them financially.

ok the uk government is fucking up the sanctions.

direct involvement is not an option

I know we're doing lots to stifle Putin but it's hard watching Innocent families suffer

[Batch]

it's horrific

[Moss]

it's horrific

It is. Just as it was in Aleppo - bit further away and brown people so the west weren't as worried. Saudi have been bombing kids in Yemen and we have turned a blind eye and they are allowed to buy Newcastle FC. It's a horrible horrible business but the hypocrisy is really depressing. Don't have any answers,  all wars are evil - just a shame the UK has been involved in more than its fair share to be in any position to grab any moral high ground.