War in Europe

[Batch]

Nope, no more, no less than Capt Hindsight. I could however, see Oh Jeremy Corbyn and the communist poster boy of this forum waving them up the beaches as they land in the U.K.

whatabout  the krankies
whatabout Gordon the gopher.
whatabout

I'm not exactly Corbyn's biggest fan, but he's but exactly welcoming them:

"Russia’s shocking invasion of Ukraine will inevitably lead to more fear, misery and death.  It is a frightening escalation of the ongoing crisis.

Russia must withdraw its troops and return to diplomacy.  If it does not, dark days are ahead for Ukraine, Russia and all of Europe."


that and it's totally irrelevant what he thinks

[JBZ]

Haven't read back but hopefully there are no further suggestions that politics should be kept out of sport   

[Legends-Lounge]

whatabout  the krankies
whatabout Gordon the gopher.
whatabout

I'm not exactly Corbyn's biggest fan, but he's but exactly welcoming them:

"Russia’s shocking invasion of Ukraine will inevitably lead to more fear, misery and death.  It is a frightening escalation of the ongoing crisis.

Russia must withdraw its troops and return to diplomacy.  If it does not, dark days are ahead for Ukraine, Russia and all of Europe."


that and it's totally irrelevant what he thinks

Yes, what about them? They’re free (at the moment) to join in.

[RobertT]

Nope, no more, no less than Capt Hindsight. I could however, see Oh Jeremy Corbyn and the communist poster boy of this forum waving them up the beaches as they land in the U.K.

Why?  Putin is many things, fucking bad things, but Communist he most certainly is not.  Russia is about as far away from the "ideals" of Communism as you could hope to get.

Quote from the man himself:

“Modern Ukraine was entirely and fully created by Russia, more specifically the Bolshevik, communist Russia,” Mr. Putin said. “This process began practically immediately after the 1917 revolution, and moreover Lenin and his associates did it in the sloppiest way in relation to Russia — by dividing, tearing from her pieces of her own historical territory.”

He fucking hates Communism, no place for that "we are all in together" malarkey.

[BambooToTheFuture]

He fucking hates Communism, no place for that "we are all in together" malarkey.

I'm trying to figure out who LL is nominating as the TEF's "communist poster boy" and who has huge association with Jeremy Corbyn... 

I'll gladly nominate myself if it's enough to get some in a lather. Didn't take long for someone to bring out the "but Corbyn" banner did it? Of course it woz all im what started it

First authoritarian loving (yet ironically, freely and liberally living in NZ) and a disdain for anyone different to them - Robinz. Followed closely by the TEF Trucker spouting misinformation to occlude the truth, just to get some form of dig in at JC - strange.

Nearly as strange as my totally and obviously really difficult cryptic posts on this very forum. I'd love to know what "Bouncy Mark" thinks about it all

[Honkytonk]

Putin was a man moulded by the latter era Soviet Union. That was barely a communist state, but an oligarchic semi-feudal society where the labour force was living hand to mouth and those in power made as much money as they could. I don't really see much of a difference between that and modern Russia, except for the fact that modern Russia is, hilariously, more a fascist autocracy.

This will not go nuclear, to anyone concerned, because if it did, China has the most to lose. Any engagement of that scale means China loses its footing as the world's leading economic power, because there will be no more world economy. They are very happy living in (relative) peace while the west gives them all our money and the rest of the world gives them all their resources.

I don't think it's been touched on anywhere, but Putin is nearly 70, despite all the plastic surgery and attempts by russian media to paint him as a timeless demigod. It's entirely possible the man's becoming senile or suffering from dementia. He hasn't faced this kind of internal backlash since the sinking of the Kursk, and all signs point to his cachet and influence being lower than ever. He's propped up in his regime by the billionaires he created, but now they are seeing their assets frozen, and value decrease on an almost hourly basis, while the average russian (who , let's be frank, he doesn't care about) sees price rises that would make even British Gas blush. At some point, he is going to be deposed or killed by someone in Russian high command, particularly if he threatens nuclear usage. I don't even think his deposing would be beyond China's ability, who could enplace a puppet to control their largest ally.

Ukraine still has planes (amusingly the Soviet era designers built them to operate from dispersed rough airfields, so they could slread them out and hide them from initial strikes), their people are well motivated, they are not going to run out of arms any time soon, and the average russian soldier does not want to be there. Non-soviet Russia has militarily intervened in places it shouldn't in the past, and every time the Russian army has been shown to be poorly motivated, oft times badly led, and wholly ineffective for the size of force used. In places like Georgia or Crimea ,yes the Russians met their strategic aims, but Georgia wa tiny, isolated and did not share a western border with NATO, and Crimea, well, the US, EU, and NATO were stymied by the Russian apologists who were ensconced in positions of power so sat on their hands.

Putin will come out of this conflict weaker than he went into it. Weaker in support at home and abroad, weaker in power, weaker in military terms, weaker amongst his allies and weaker as an old man. Invading Ukraine is the single stupidest thing he could have done if he was worried about NATO.

I for one am delighted that finally people who act as mouthpieces for hire to promote Russia interests despite the facts are being removed and silenced across the west, and only when all foreign influence to our political system has been cleared can we hope to be free of the kind of influence that Putin and his gang of criminals who happen to now be billionaires have exerted here for too long. There is too much blood money in the UK and frankly not enough done because it lines the pockets of institutions or political parties loathe to lose it.

[Legends-Lounge]

Putin was a man moulded by the latter era Soviet Union. That was barely a communist state, but an oligarchic semi-feudal society where the labour force was living hand to mouth and those in power made as much money as they could. I don't really see much of a difference between that and modern Russia, except for the fact that modern Russia is, hilariously, more a fascist autocracy.

This will not go nuclear, to anyone concerned, because if it did, China has the most to lose. Any engagement of that scale means China loses its footing as the world's leading economic power, because there will be no more world economy. They are very happy living in (relative) peace while the west gives them all our money and the rest of the world gives them all their resources.

I don't think it's been touched on anywhere, but Putin is nearly 70, despite all the plastic surgery and attempts by russian media to paint him as a timeless demigod. It's entirely possible the man's becoming senile or suffering from dementia. He hasn't faced this kind of internal backlash since the sinking of the Kursk, and all signs point to his cachet and influence being lower than ever. He's propped up in his regime by the billionaires he created, but now they are seeing their assets frozen, and value decrease on an almost hourly basis, while the average russian (who , let's be frank, he doesn't care about) sees price rises that would make even British Gas blush. At some point, he is going to be deposed or killed by someone in Russian high command, particularly if he threatens nuclear usage. I don't even think his deposing would be beyond China's ability, who could enplace a puppet to control their largest ally.

Ukraine still has planes (amusingly the Soviet era designers built them to operate from dispersed rough airfields, so they could slread them out and hide them from initial strikes), their people are well motivated, they are not going to run out of arms any time soon, and the average russian soldier does not want to be there. Non-soviet Russia has militarily intervened in places it shouldn't in the past, and every time the Russian army has been shown to be poorly motivated, oft times badly led, and wholly ineffective for the size of force used. In places like Georgia or Crimea ,yes the Russians met their strategic aims, but Georgia wa tiny, isolated and did not share a western border with NATO, and Crimea, well, the US, EU, and NATO were stymied by the Russian apologists who were ensconced in positions of power so sat on their hands.

Putin will come out of this conflict weaker than he went into it. Weaker in support at home and abroad, weaker in power, weaker in military terms, weaker amongst his allies and weaker as an old man. Invading Ukraine is the single stupidest thing he could have done if he was worried about NATO.

I for one am delighted that finally people who act as mouthpieces for hire to promote Russia interests despite the facts are being removed and silenced across the west, and only when all foreign influence to our political system has been cleared can we hope to be free of the kind of influence that Putin and his gang of criminals who happen to now be billionaires have exerted here for too long. There is too much blood money in the UK and frankly not enough done because it lines the pockets of institutions or political parties loathe to lose it.

Very insightful and I couldn’t agree more.

I would add to those that think the last sentence refers specifically to the ‘hard right Tory party and it’s acolytes’  think  again. Russia, like China for many years has been buying influence. State secrets, political, militarily and commercial since the Berlin Wall fell. Slowly at first when those old guard communists realised that there was money to be made and using old style honey traps and more sophisticated espionage with a financial emphasis rather than though not exclusively a sexual slant would gain more than aggression. The Chinese are adroit at this game and work to an extent with its old communist ally to undermine our society on the left, right and centre wherever they see a potential advantage to undermine the west. Pay those who will take it and silence those who oppose it.

I did say that the longer this goes on the more likely Putin would be seen as a busted flush. The temperature maybe cold in the Ukraine but it’s rising inside Russia. Even those taking Putins Rouble inside Russia and exerting pressure on the people are starting to feel it, given time they will like a hungry dog turn on their master.

[Arriba]

I remember the Corbyn picture on Newsnight with him in a generated picture wearing a Russian hat. Part of a biased, false smear campaign against him. All the while Tory MPs were taking Russian's money.

You only have to look at how the world is reacting to this awful attack by Putin to see it's all about capitalism. It's also shows how communism could never work. Humans by nature are greedy and always want more. This goes back as far as the human race does.

[Legends-Lounge]

I remember the Corbyn picture on Newsnight with him in a generated picture wearing a Russian hat. Part of a biased, false smear campaign against him. All the while Tory MPs were taking Russian's money.

You only have to look at how the world is reacting to this awful attack by Putin to see it's all about capitalism. It's also shows how communism could never work. Humans by nature are greedy and always want more. This goes back as far as the human race does.

But only on the right, right?

[Peter Venkman]

I remember the Corbyn picture on Newsnight with him in a generated picture wearing a Russian hat. Part of a biased, false smear campaign against him. All the while Tory MPs were taking Russian's money.

You only have to look at how the world is reacting to this awful attack by Putin to see it's all about capitalism. It's also shows how communism could never work. Humans by nature are greedy and always want more. This goes back as far as the human race does.

Absolutely correct.

[horlock07]

I don't think it's been touched on anywhere, but Putin is nearly 70, despite all the plastic surgery and attempts by russian media to paint him as a timeless demigod. It's entirely possible the man's becoming senile or suffering from dementia. He hasn't faced this kind of internal backlash since the sinking of the Kursk, and all signs point to his cachet and influence being lower than ever. He's propped up in his regime by the billionaires he created, but now they are seeing their assets frozen, and value decrease on an almost hourly basis, while the average russian (who , let's be frank, he doesn't care about) sees price rises that would make even British Gas blush. At some point, he is going to be deposed or killed by someone in Russian high command, particularly if he threatens nuclear usage. I don't even think his deposing would be beyond China's ability, who could enplace a puppet to control their largest ally.

I suspect that you have been reading the same sources I have, equally hasn't it been rather widely reported in the past that he has Parkinson's? One has to wonder whether this is a declining man grasping what he sees as a last chance to achieve his idealogical dreams?

I for one am delighted that finally people who act as mouthpieces for hire to promote Russia interests despite the facts are being removed and silenced across the west, and only when all foreign influence to our political system has been cleared can we hope to be free of the kind of influence that Putin and his gang of criminals who happen to now be billionaires have exerted here for too long. There is too much blood money in the UK and frankly not enough done because it lines the pockets of institutions or political parties loathe to lose it.

Indeed, this is where the difficulties exist for Johnson and the government. Johnson's words re the Crimea as coming back to haunt him, whilst as a commentator (sorry don't recall who) pointed out, considering the amount of cash the government have taken from Putin allies its like a Headmaster wanting to expel a child but realising that he can't as the child's parents paid for the music block at the school to be built!
 

[Legends-Lounge]

I remember the Corbyn picture on Newsnight with him in a generated picture wearing a Russian hat. Part of a biased, false smear campaign against him. All the while Tory MPs were taking Russian's money.

You only have to look at how the world is reacting to this awful attack by Putin to see it's all about capitalism. It's also shows how communism could never work. Humans by nature are greedy and always want more. This goes back as far as the human race does.

You do have a point. Do you remember going back must 20 years, maybe more. When Rover were in the shit about the time I think Honda withdrew from their partnership and the company was fucked. I did an article about a delegation of Union, management maybe but not sure government ‘officials’ being entertained by the Chinese about a ‘rescue package’ or maybe a buyout, not. The crux of the article was that those that went were schmoozed, wined, dined and basically rinsed of their knowledge of the company and next thing it was sold, inc the MG badge and that was it for our last state owned car manufacturer. I don’t think it suggested that unofficial money was paid to those who went but the inference was that they were seduced very cleverly but the Chinese who saw real value in the brand and got it for a song. Now you can go and buy an MG made in Taiwan and China. Electric too. The universities are awash with Chinese money behind the sciences. In Africa the Chinese have been spending billions for years exerting influence, why only recently Barbados uncoupled from the commonwealth as is their but it hasn’t gone unnoticed that there China has poured money into the countries infrastructure.

You can fight a war without weapons but allude money is a very powerful weapon to use in this world and no one is immune from being seduced by it.

Putin need ps those who he allowed to be enriched by and through his power and once they have that money and privilege it becomes a powerful weapon to use against them. As the saying goes, they that pay the piper call the tune.

[horlock07]

You do have a point. Do you remember going back must 20 years, maybe more. When Rover were in the shit about the time I think Honda withdrew from their partnership and the company was fucked. I did an article about a delegation of Union, management maybe but not sure government ‘officials’ being entertained by the Chinese about a ‘rescue package’ or maybe a buyout, not. The crux of the article was that those that went were schmoozed, wined, dined and basically rinsed of their knowledge of the company and next thing it was sold, inc the MG badge and that was it for our last state owned car manufacturer. I don’t think it suggested that unofficial money was paid to those who went but the inference was that they were seduced very cleverly but the Chinese who saw real value in the brand and got it for a song. Now you can go and buy an MG made in Taiwan and China. Electric too. The universities are awash with Chinese money behind the sciences. In Africa the Chinese have been spending billions for years exerting influence, why only recently Barbados uncoupled from the commonwealth as is their but it hasn’t gone unnoticed that there China has poured money into the countries infrastructure.

Which time do you mean, Rover wasn't state owned from as early as 1988 when BAE bought it and Honda moved away when it was flogged to BMW in 1994.

The stuff with the Chinese was 21st century after BMW had gifted it to Phoenix who took their flesh and basically stripped it till 2005 when the Chinese picked up for a song out of admin!

But yes emerging economies seem much more adept at fast moving and harvesting knowledge, added to which is the prestige. Hence why many in the know have been suggesting that the key sanction to get results against Putin would be stopping granting visa's to allow oligarchs to educate their kids in our public schools. 

[Legends-Lounge]

Which time do you mean, Rover wasn't state owned from as early as 1988 when BAE bought it and Honda moved away when it was flogged to BMW in 1994.

The stuff with the Chinese was 21st century after BMW had gifted it to Phoenix who took their flesh and basically stripped it till 2005 when the Chinese picked up for a song out of admin!

But yes emerging economies seem much more adept at fast moving and harvesting knowledge, added to which is the prestige. Hence why many in the know have been suggesting that the key sanction to get results against Putin would be stopping granting visa's to allow oligarchs to educate their kids in our public schools.  

You then know of what I’m alluding to. The article was the meetings in China of which the was some value and yes you have clearly more, knowledge and or access to this info than me (which I’m just using as an example of how easy it is to seduce with money and ‘hospitality’) however I now remember a tv programme and some of the attendees were clearly shocked at how easy the Chinese ended up with an asset that was clearly worth more than they paid.

[Honkytonk]

Anyone who read my post and thinks the Tories and the right wing parties aren't the most complicit in assisting russian influence are dead wrong.

Perennial cockwomble and walking bag of barely concealed fascist excrement Nigel Farage has on many occasions been courted by the state owned russian broadcasters, matches Putin's Eurosceptic view, and as leader of UKIP once said that he would never turn away funding from people who agreed with him. The referendum, whether directly influenced by the Russians or not, was undoubtedly skewed by outside influence from a Russia that does not like a unified Europe.

Many (legal) conservative party, and Boris, donors are Pro Putin businessmen (Please see the comments from the SNP in parliament recently). I'm sure there are a lot of under the table deals as well, but that can't be put at the feet of one political party necessarily, although typically the one with the most power is the one that will be focused on for corruption.

Back on topic. The current convoy driving slowly down a road to Kyiv is a sign of a Russian military that can barely hold itself together. Ukraine is almost perfect tank country, long wide open spaces, with tons of room for a war of maneuver, particularly with Russian APC's and tanks and their legendary ruggedness. The fact the whole bloody army is driving single file down a single road shows the officers need to keep them together to try and push them on, if left to their own devices half of them would probably just bivouac or turn back. Keep them all in a line and just play a game of follow the leader. Putin and his generals know the stomach is not there to fight for the vast majority, but the big existential threat of the convoy coming it's way might, they hope, make Ukraine think about agreeing to terms, and show strength where in reality there is little. Very similar to the fleet in being principle of early C20th warfare.

If we're lucky, they might just give up and withdraw as they did in Chechnya. If we're not we're looking at the same tactics that were used in the Syrian civil war in Europe.