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Author Topic: England road to the Euros  (Read 4214 times)
RedRag


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« Reply #15 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 09:07:45 »

Another strong display. Shame the home fans disgraced themselves with racist abuse toward England players. But then while UEFA and FIFA hand out token fines at best, there's really no incentive for them to change is there?
Didn't see it. 

Was it quite widespread?

This sort of stuff seems to go on at the New Den too. FIFA and UEFA seem particularly spineless though.

Unless it's an unpreventable, brief outburst by a tiny handful of individuals, I'd like to see automatic "matches behind closed doors" sanctions here and in Europe. 
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reeves4england


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« Reply #16 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 10:14:59 »

Two very comfortable wins in the end. I was about to type that Montenegro gave us a scare early on last night, but to be honest that's not really true as you always felt like this England team would turn it around. Such a change from the not-so-distant past.

Great to see young players making their mark too. The current squad could conceivably go for another two or three tournaments without too many changes, and even after that you're looking at over half the squad still being in their prime.
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pauld


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« Reply #17 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 10:21:46 »

Didn't see it. 

Was it quite widespread?

This sort of stuff seems to go on at the New Den too. FIFA and UEFA seem particularly spineless though.

Unless it's an unpreventable, brief outburst by a tiny handful of individuals, I'd like to see automatic "matches behind closed doors" sanctions here and in Europe. 

Apparently widespread albeit mainly in one area (so throughout the section behind the goal, which is why Sterling cupped his ears there after the 5th), but audible throughout the game, journos/commentators heard it from about 5 mins in and continued right till the end.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47700628

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Barry Scott


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« Reply #18 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 10:28:48 »

Another strong display. Shame the home fans disgraced themselves with racist abuse toward England players. But then while UEFA and FIFA hand out token fines at best, there's really no incentive for them to change is there?

What I'd like to see is all the black players get sponsored by Paddy Power or someone to wear sponsored boxers. Then when they get abused/score, drop their shorts (ala Bendtner) in front of the crowd.

It'd leave UEFA/FIFA with real head-scratcher as they try to weigh up respective fines/punishments. There'd be almost no way to avoid comparison, or for them both to be spoken of in the same breath, while it's in black and white and over the same incident.
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #19 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 10:35:22 »

 What's most interesting from England's point of view is that we seem to have some depth of squad.  Perhaps not big numbers playing in the Prem or other Euro leagues, but enough.  Further quite a few at CL level clubs.

 We're probably still some way short of producing the sackloads of talent that France does, but that is partly down to their domestic league being a giant academy for the top Euro leagues, and we don't want that.

Some of this is cyclical... Spain having had years of producing wonderous midfielders, have now hit something of a drought.... their side that beat Norway t'other night, had quite a few gnarled players, like Danny Parejo, who I recall with some excitement gracing the CG with QPR in a LC game about 10 years ago, when Coxy and Barn Door Billy puts us ahead.

That these things are perhaps illusory and we should just enjoy what is in front of us rather than thinking this is a sea change, are best demonstrated by Germany. 2 or 3 years ago, looked like they were taking the piss, could rest the 14 WC winning side, for the 17 Confed Cup, and send an U 21 side to win it, then find another U 21 side to win their Euro.  However it has fallen apart since, and they're starting to look to England for talent... the Sancho effect.

One of the things that Southgate has done so well, which particularly the Germans have always done is the pathway through the U 21, and te pathway to that from other age group sides.

Watched the U 21's v Poland t'other night, with particular interest in Phil Foden, as he is the sort of thing that England still lack to an extent, why we lost to a side with Modric and Rakitic last summer.   THe kid has talent, but that playmaker role is so difficult, that you do need a while and a bit of exposure at the top level to master it... and Foden needs that.
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pauld


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« Reply #20 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 10:51:49 »

What I'd like to see is all the black players get sponsored by Paddy Power or someone to wear sponsored boxers. Then when they get abused/score, drop their shorts (ala Bendtner) in front of the crowd.

It'd leave UEFA/FIFA with real head-scratcher as they try to weigh up respective fines/punishments. There'd be almost no way to avoid comparison, or for them both to be spoken of in the same breath, while it's in black and white and over the same incident.
You know what would happen. Token fine for the racists, 6-game ban for anyone daring to impugn on FIFA's sacred commercial rights
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pauld


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« Reply #21 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 10:56:34 »


One of the things that Southgate has done so well, which particularly the Germans have always done is the pathway through the U 21, and te pathway to that from other age group sides.

I've been banging this drum for years, it's not just Southgate (although he is key to it), what we are starting to see now is the fruits of a long-term project the FA started on nearly 10 years ago to actually look long term at how we develop players through the youth system. It's what lies behind a lot of the changes introduced into youth football over the last decade (frequently bemoaned on here and elsewhere as undermining player development), the "England DNA" malarkey from a couple of years back and before that the "Future Game" stuff which was the precursor to the DNA stuff. It's still very much a work in progress, there's quite a way to go to catch up with the Germans in terms of tying in what pro clubs do with what the national team needs but it's encouraging.
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #22 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 12:06:42 »

 Yes, but I think it's too early to say this is some sort of sea change, or just one of those cyclical events.

 The German conveyor belt has stalled as has seemingly the Spanish.  Further the Spanish system kept on producing little midfielders, but struggled a bit for front men... which led to getting Costa in as a ringer, now his fitness is dodgy, they're reduced to Morata.  His sub at the weekend Mata, not Juan but Jaime was making his debut aged 30, having a had a decent first season on La Liga for Getafe, after a late start and playing in the lower leagues, a sort of Ricky Lambert.

 Sides still like a centre forward, and they're very thin on the ground atm.... France persist with Giroud, but Germany don't have one, at the weekend v Dutch, they played a sort of total football, with Sane and Gnabry up front, who tore Van Dijk a new one, in the first half.

 Atm Kane is the standout of his type... and it's a very English thing... not sure if there's anything coming through that can replace him.... in the 21's you have Abraham and Solanke, both useful, but some way off.  Of thos ecoming through at age group level.... Ben Brereton looked a possibility, still only 19, but he's stalled having left Forest for Blackburn for  7 mill.   Still time for him as Kane didn't look much at that age.
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horlock07


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« Reply #23 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 12:29:53 »


Atm Kane is the standout of his type... and it's a very English thing... not sure if there's anything coming through that can replace him.... in the 21's you have Abraham and Solanke, both useful, but some way off.  Of thos ecoming through at age group level.... Ben Brereton looked a possibility, still only 19, but he's stalled having left Forest for Blackburn for  7 mill.   Still time for him as Kane didn't look much at that age.

To be fair Kane looked some way off until he was about 22, there was a period where he seemed to play in European games and not look that great at all.
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Barry Scott


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« Reply #24 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 12:55:23 »

You know what would happen. Token fine for the racists, 6-game ban for anyone daring to impugn on FIFA's sacred commercial rights

Yeah, guess that'd be predictable. And I've no doubt The Sun and their ilk will form a narrative about how a "rich black wannabe gangster" wants even more money rather than drawing attention to what the thick white idiots enjoy shouting.
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pauld


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« Reply #25 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 12:55:54 »

Yes, but I think it's too early to say this is some sort of sea change, or just one of those cyclical events.

 The German conveyor belt has stalled as has seemingly the Spanish.  
Yes both true, there is an element of cyclicalness (cyclicality?) about it and there's no guarantees, but the way the FA are now working is a lot more likely to produce decent players in a coherent team than the way we used to. In this country we will need to do something to bridge the gap between decent youth players not getting game time because they're warehoused at the top clubs. As Hudson-Odoi and Foden are now finding and why Sancho chose to go and play in Germany
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Barry Scott


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« Reply #26 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 13:38:58 »

As someone who despises the FA (which no doubt influences my opinions) I can't help but say that correlation does not equal causation.

There appears to be no more youngsters playing in the upper leagues, no lesser hoarding of youngsters by the big clubs and clearly no less foreign talent filling each and every team in the PL.

Sancho is in the team because he gets game time and is some what an outlier. Hudson Odoi has barely played and there isn't really any others. It doesn't seem any different to me than it did 10-20 years ago?

Ok, they can play players in the team that'd played together in the U21, but is that what Southgate's actually doing? Are the old men making that demand? And also, Aidy Hoofroyd manages the U21 doesn't he? I'm not sure how his philosophy relates to the mens game (or any game post 1980) at all.

All I see now is a few extra youngsters in the team. I'm not sure what the FA has to do with any of this. I'm happy to be educated, so feel free to give me both barrels.
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Shrivvy Road


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« Reply #27 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 13:57:34 »

As someone who despises the FA (which no doubt influences my opinions) I can't help but say that correlation does not equal causation.

There appears to be no more youngsters playing in the upper leagues, no lesser hoarding of youngsters by the big clubs and clearly no less foreign talent filling each and every team in the PL.

Sancho is in the team because he gets game time and is some what an outlier. Hudson Odoi has barely played and there isn't really any others. It doesn't seem any different to me than it did 10-20 years ago?

Ok, they can play players in the team that'd played together in the U21, but is that what Southgate's actually doing? Are the old men making that demand? And also, Aidy Hoofroyd manages the U21 doesn't he? I'm not sure how his philosophy relates to the mens game (or any game post 1980) at all.

All I see now is a few extra youngsters in the team. I'm not sure what the FA has to do with any of this. I'm happy to be educated, so feel free to give me both barrels.
I think these players are now getting first team football due to Southgate playing them or at least calling them up. They are forcing their clubs hands now by saying look if you do not start playing me i am moving on as i have a England place at stake. I also like how each age group now play as the first team do on Southgates request. I think he has been a breath of fresh air.
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Barry Scott


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« Reply #28 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 14:19:34 »

I think these players are now getting first team football due to Southgate playing them or at least calling them up. They are forcing their clubs hands now by saying look if you do not start playing me i am moving on as i have a England place at stake. I also like how each age group now play as the first team do on Southgates request. I think he has been a breath of fresh air.

Absolutely. Southgate has been great.
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pauld


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« Reply #29 on: Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 14:26:33 »

Ok, they can play players in the team that'd played together in the U21, but is that what Southgate's actually doing? Are the old men making that demand? And also, Aidy Hoofroyd manages the U21 doesn't he? I'm not sure how his philosophy relates to the mens game (or any game post 1980) at all.

All I see now is a few extra youngsters in the team. I'm not sure what the FA has to do with any of this. I'm happy to be educated, so feel free to give me both barrels.
A few years ago the FA started to take youth development seriously as a development "pathway" (sorry to use the jargon but it is appropriate terminology) so they started to look at trying to bring teams through together and take the age group competitions seriously so that by the time players arrived in the senior team they already had some experience of tournament football, what it looked like, what the pressures were etc. As a result we've won trophies at U17s, U21s, U23s level and seen some of these players start to come through into the senior set up. As opposed to the farce of Oxlade-Chamberlain being taken out of the U17s tournament to sit on a bench in Brazil watching the senior team playing in a tournament. Southgate was an integral part of this as U21s coach and has continued some of the approach he had at youth level into the senior set up (more emphasis on fun, creativity, players getting involved in planning and coaching more).
There appears to be no more youngsters playing in the upper leagues, no lesser hoarding of youngsters by the big clubs and clearly no less foreign talent filling each and every team in the PL.

Sancho is in the team because he gets game time and is some what an outlier. Hudson Odoi has barely played and there isn't really any others. It doesn't seem any different to me than it did 10-20 years ago?
Yes and I've already said that this is still a huge issue but this is down to the clubs, there isn't a huge amount the FA can do about it. The FA surrendered that power long ago, with the formation of the Premier League.

Don't get me wrong, there's still a lot wrong with the FA and it's in urgent need of massive reform but in relation to youth development at both elite level and what they are trying to get into grassroots, there are some good people there, doing some good stuff.
« Last Edit: Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 14:28:09 by pauld » Logged
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