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Swindon Town FC => Other Football Stuff => Topic started by: pauld on Friday, March 22, 2019, 22:48:40



Title: England road to the Euros
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 22, 2019, 22:48:40
Campaign started promisingly, a very slick performance, some lovely football. The Czechs haven't been so comprehensively dicked by the English since Reg was in his prime!


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: Costanza on Friday, March 22, 2019, 22:59:57
A whole thread created for that Reg bit.

Bravo, Paul

 :)


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: pauld on Friday, March 22, 2019, 23:03:13
A whole thread created for a that Reg bit.

Bravo, Paul

 :)
:D I thought I did well to hold off until the final whistle tbh. And it also occurred to me that we don't really discuss England much on here so crap jokes aside, while they are playing quite well, nice to celebrate that


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: Costanza on Friday, March 22, 2019, 23:10:51
It's nice to see England 'do' teams.

Without going too deeply I think we all know that, not so long ago, a home fixture against a below par Czech Republic side would have resulted in an unconvincing 2-1 victory.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: Flashheart on Friday, March 22, 2019, 23:24:14
Good to see Sterling get a hatrick.

Can't wait to see how The Sun will respond.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: suttonred on Friday, March 22, 2019, 23:38:49
Good to see Sterling get a hatrick.

Can't wait to see how The Sun will respond.

I'm guessing that will be a racist perspective? Fair play to Sterling, he was dog do's in the world cup, and was comprehensively rated as such on the bbc website, they then played the racist card, when he was actually just marked down as rubbish, and was, Not sure what my point as as Sterling was shite, but just shite, nothing more nothing less.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: pauld on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 00:33:00
they then played the racist card, when he was actually just marked down as rubbish, and was
Read back on what he said and the articles he was talking about. It was the shite in the Mail and the Sun which was nothing to do with his ability as a footballer or his performances but all about "Young black man with money". His point was (and he's been backed by England colleagues this week) was that he was singled out for a slating because he was black and wealthy, in a way that white players wouldn't have been. Go read his tweets from that time and the newspaper articles following it up that call out the original pieces he was talking about. They're fuck all to do with how he played, they're pure vindictive racial bias.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: Super Hans on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 00:36:23
As it stands I think only the French are stronger than us. Imagine we'll only be better in a years time as well.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 02:51:49
:D I thought I did well to hold off until the final whistle tbh.

What I always tried to do... regarded it as representing the Englishman.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: Bogus Dave on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 08:56:32
It was a good performance, but czezchia we’re properly shite

Be interesting to see how such a young team comes in Montenegro, particularly the atmosphere


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: suttonred on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 09:59:02
Read back on what he said and the articles he was talking about. It was the shite in the Mail and the Sun which was nothing to do with his ability as a footballer or his performances but all about "Young black man with money". His point was (and he's been backed by England colleagues this week) was that he was singled out for a slating because he was black and wealthy, in a way that white players wouldn't have been. Go read his tweets from that time and the newspaper articles following it up that call out the original pieces he was talking about. They're fuck all to do with how he played, they're pure vindictive racial bias.


 I didnt explain it well. I'm sure there was, I dont read newspapers. I was referring to the player rater on the bbc, and comments by the bbc saying people had voted him as hopeless because of race etc. When he was truly hopeless. Maybe it was the press stuff affecting him.Just glad he played well last night is all really. that'stick it up their pipes.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: Anteater on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 11:36:33
So pleased that England are doing well and a team that are capable of winning on their day against anyone,
It has always irked me that the hobby of England bashing and in turn individual players has always come to easy for  media and fans alike irrespective of deserving criticism or not. Indeed 'nothing' like supporting your team/country.
Very able performance against admittedly a not brilliant Czech Republic but still pretty clinical and with severeal injuries,
Fair play to Southgate and the players, long may the improvement continue.





Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: pauld on Saturday, March 23, 2019, 18:47:15


 I didnt explain it well. I'm sure there was, I dont read newspapers. I was referring to the player rater on the bbc, and comments by the bbc saying people had voted him as hopeless because of race etc. When he was truly hopeless. Maybe it was the press stuff affecting him.Just glad he played well last night is all really. that'stick it up their pipes.
Fair enough, hadn't seen that and didn't realise that was what you were on about. Anyway, as you say, if he keeps playing like that for England all well and good!


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: pauld on Monday, March 25, 2019, 23:22:42
Another strong display. Shame the home fans disgraced themselves with racist abuse toward England players. But then while UEFA and FIFA hand out token fines at best, there's really no incentive for them to change is there?


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 07:51:51
Some parts of the world are circa 1975.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: RedRag on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 10:07:45
Another strong display. Shame the home fans disgraced themselves with racist abuse toward England players. But then while UEFA and FIFA hand out token fines at best, there's really no incentive for them to change is there?
Didn't see it. 

Was it quite widespread?

This sort of stuff seems to go on at the New Den too. FIFA and UEFA seem particularly spineless though.

Unless it's an unpreventable, brief outburst by a tiny handful of individuals, I'd like to see automatic "matches behind closed doors" sanctions here and in Europe. 


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: reeves4england on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 11:14:59
Two very comfortable wins in the end. I was about to type that Montenegro gave us a scare early on last night, but to be honest that's not really true as you always felt like this England team would turn it around. Such a change from the not-so-distant past.

Great to see young players making their mark too. The current squad could conceivably go for another two or three tournaments without too many changes, and even after that you're looking at over half the squad still being in their prime.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 11:21:46
Didn't see it. 

Was it quite widespread?

This sort of stuff seems to go on at the New Den too. FIFA and UEFA seem particularly spineless though.

Unless it's an unpreventable, brief outburst by a tiny handful of individuals, I'd like to see automatic "matches behind closed doors" sanctions here and in Europe. 

Apparently widespread albeit mainly in one area (so throughout the section behind the goal, which is why Sterling cupped his ears there after the 5th), but audible throughout the game, journos/commentators heard it from about 5 mins in and continued right till the end.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47700628



Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: Barry Scott on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 11:28:48
Another strong display. Shame the home fans disgraced themselves with racist abuse toward England players. But then while UEFA and FIFA hand out token fines at best, there's really no incentive for them to change is there?

What I'd like to see is all the black players get sponsored by Paddy Power or someone to wear sponsored boxers. Then when they get abused/score, drop their shorts (ala Bendtner) in front of the crowd.

It'd leave UEFA/FIFA with real head-scratcher as they try to weigh up respective fines/punishments. There'd be almost no way to avoid comparison, or for them both to be spoken of in the same breath, while it's in black and white and over the same incident.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 11:35:22
 What's most interesting from England's point of view is that we seem to have some depth of squad.  Perhaps not big numbers playing in the Prem or other Euro leagues, but enough.  Further quite a few at CL level clubs.

 We're probably still some way short of producing the sackloads of talent that France does, but that is partly down to their domestic league being a giant academy for the top Euro leagues, and we don't want that.

Some of this is cyclical... Spain having had years of producing wonderous midfielders, have now hit something of a drought.... their side that beat Norway t'other night, had quite a few gnarled players, like Danny Parejo, who I recall with some excitement gracing the CG with QPR in a LC game about 10 years ago, when Coxy and Barn Door Billy puts us ahead.

That these things are perhaps illusory and we should just enjoy what is in front of us rather than thinking this is a sea change, are best demonstrated by Germany. 2 or 3 years ago, looked like they were taking the piss, could rest the 14 WC winning side, for the 17 Confed Cup, and send an U 21 side to win it, then find another U 21 side to win their Euro.  However it has fallen apart since, and they're starting to look to England for talent... the Sancho effect.

One of the things that Southgate has done so well, which particularly the Germans have always done is the pathway through the U 21, and te pathway to that from other age group sides.

Watched the U 21's v Poland t'other night, with particular interest in Phil Foden, as he is the sort of thing that England still lack to an extent, why we lost to a side with Modric and Rakitic last summer.   THe kid has talent, but that playmaker role is so difficult, that you do need a while and a bit of exposure at the top level to master it... and Foden needs that.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 11:51:49
What I'd like to see is all the black players get sponsored by Paddy Power or someone to wear sponsored boxers. Then when they get abused/score, drop their shorts (ala Bendtner) in front of the crowd.

It'd leave UEFA/FIFA with real head-scratcher as they try to weigh up respective fines/punishments. There'd be almost no way to avoid comparison, or for them both to be spoken of in the same breath, while it's in black and white and over the same incident.
You know what would happen. Token fine for the racists, 6-game ban for anyone daring to impugn on FIFA's sacred commercial rights


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 11:56:34

One of the things that Southgate has done so well, which particularly the Germans have always done is the pathway through the U 21, and te pathway to that from other age group sides.

I've been banging this drum for years, it's not just Southgate (although he is key to it), what we are starting to see now is the fruits of a long-term project the FA started on nearly 10 years ago to actually look long term at how we develop players through the youth system. It's what lies behind a lot of the changes introduced into youth football over the last decade (frequently bemoaned on here and elsewhere as undermining player development), the "England DNA" malarkey from a couple of years back and before that the "Future Game" stuff which was the precursor to the DNA stuff. It's still very much a work in progress, there's quite a way to go to catch up with the Germans in terms of tying in what pro clubs do with what the national team needs but it's encouraging.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 13:06:42
 Yes, but I think it's too early to say this is some sort of sea change, or just one of those cyclical events.

 The German conveyor belt has stalled as has seemingly the Spanish.  Further the Spanish system kept on producing little midfielders, but struggled a bit for front men... which led to getting Costa in as a ringer, now his fitness is dodgy, they're reduced to Morata.  His sub at the weekend Mata, not Juan but Jaime was making his debut aged 30, having a had a decent first season on La Liga for Getafe, after a late start and playing in the lower leagues, a sort of Ricky Lambert.

 Sides still like a centre forward, and they're very thin on the ground atm.... France persist with Giroud, but Germany don't have one, at the weekend v Dutch, they played a sort of total football, with Sane and Gnabry up front, who tore Van Dijk a new one, in the first half.

 Atm Kane is the standout of his type... and it's a very English thing... not sure if there's anything coming through that can replace him.... in the 21's you have Abraham and Solanke, both useful, but some way off.  Of thos ecoming through at age group level.... Ben Brereton looked a possibility, still only 19, but he's stalled having left Forest for Blackburn for  7 mill.   Still time for him as Kane didn't look much at that age.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 13:29:53

Atm Kane is the standout of his type... and it's a very English thing... not sure if there's anything coming through that can replace him.... in the 21's you have Abraham and Solanke, both useful, but some way off.  Of thos ecoming through at age group level.... Ben Brereton looked a possibility, still only 19, but he's stalled having left Forest for Blackburn for  7 mill.   Still time for him as Kane didn't look much at that age.

To be fair Kane looked some way off until he was about 22, there was a period where he seemed to play in European games and not look that great at all.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: Barry Scott on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 13:55:23
You know what would happen. Token fine for the racists, 6-game ban for anyone daring to impugn on FIFA's sacred commercial rights

Yeah, guess that'd be predictable. And I've no doubt The Sun and their ilk will form a narrative about how a "rich black wannabe gangster" wants even more money rather than drawing attention to what the thick white idiots enjoy shouting.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 13:55:54
Yes, but I think it's too early to say this is some sort of sea change, or just one of those cyclical events.

 The German conveyor belt has stalled as has seemingly the Spanish.  
Yes both true, there is an element of cyclicalness (cyclicality?) about it and there's no guarantees, but the way the FA are now working is a lot more likely to produce decent players in a coherent team than the way we used to. In this country we will need to do something to bridge the gap between decent youth players not getting game time because they're warehoused at the top clubs. As Hudson-Odoi and Foden are now finding and why Sancho chose to go and play in Germany


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: Barry Scott on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 14:38:58
As someone who despises the FA (which no doubt influences my opinions) I can't help but say that correlation does not equal causation.

There appears to be no more youngsters playing in the upper leagues, no lesser hoarding of youngsters by the big clubs and clearly no less foreign talent filling each and every team in the PL.

Sancho is in the team because he gets game time and is some what an outlier. Hudson Odoi has barely played and there isn't really any others. It doesn't seem any different to me than it did 10-20 years ago?

Ok, they can play players in the team that'd played together in the U21, but is that what Southgate's actually doing? Are the old men making that demand? And also, Aidy Hoofroyd manages the U21 doesn't he? I'm not sure how his philosophy relates to the mens game (or any game post 1980) at all.

All I see now is a few extra youngsters in the team. I'm not sure what the FA has to do with any of this. I'm happy to be educated, so feel free to give me both barrels.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: Shrivvy Road on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 14:57:34
As someone who despises the FA (which no doubt influences my opinions) I can't help but say that correlation does not equal causation.

There appears to be no more youngsters playing in the upper leagues, no lesser hoarding of youngsters by the big clubs and clearly no less foreign talent filling each and every team in the PL.

Sancho is in the team because he gets game time and is some what an outlier. Hudson Odoi has barely played and there isn't really any others. It doesn't seem any different to me than it did 10-20 years ago?

Ok, they can play players in the team that'd played together in the U21, but is that what Southgate's actually doing? Are the old men making that demand? And also, Aidy Hoofroyd manages the U21 doesn't he? I'm not sure how his philosophy relates to the mens game (or any game post 1980) at all.

All I see now is a few extra youngsters in the team. I'm not sure what the FA has to do with any of this. I'm happy to be educated, so feel free to give me both barrels.
I think these players are now getting first team football due to Southgate playing them or at least calling them up. They are forcing their clubs hands now by saying look if you do not start playing me i am moving on as i have a England place at stake. I also like how each age group now play as the first team do on Southgates request. I think he has been a breath of fresh air.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: Barry Scott on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 15:19:34
I think these players are now getting first team football due to Southgate playing them or at least calling them up. They are forcing their clubs hands now by saying look if you do not start playing me i am moving on as i have a England place at stake. I also like how each age group now play as the first team do on Southgates request. I think he has been a breath of fresh air.

Absolutely. Southgate has been great.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 15:26:33
Ok, they can play players in the team that'd played together in the U21, but is that what Southgate's actually doing? Are the old men making that demand? And also, Aidy Hoofroyd manages the U21 doesn't he? I'm not sure how his philosophy relates to the mens game (or any game post 1980) at all.

All I see now is a few extra youngsters in the team. I'm not sure what the FA has to do with any of this. I'm happy to be educated, so feel free to give me both barrels.
A few years ago the FA started to take youth development seriously as a development "pathway" (sorry to use the jargon but it is appropriate terminology) so they started to look at trying to bring teams through together and take the age group competitions seriously so that by the time players arrived in the senior team they already had some experience of tournament football, what it looked like, what the pressures were etc. As a result we've won trophies at U17s, U21s, U23s level and seen some of these players start to come through into the senior set up. As opposed to the farce of Oxlade-Chamberlain being taken out of the U17s tournament to sit on a bench in Brazil watching the senior team playing in a tournament. Southgate was an integral part of this as U21s coach and has continued some of the approach he had at youth level into the senior set up (more emphasis on fun, creativity, players getting involved in planning and coaching more).
There appears to be no more youngsters playing in the upper leagues, no lesser hoarding of youngsters by the big clubs and clearly no less foreign talent filling each and every team in the PL.

Sancho is in the team because he gets game time and is some what an outlier. Hudson Odoi has barely played and there isn't really any others. It doesn't seem any different to me than it did 10-20 years ago?
Yes and I've already said that this is still a huge issue but this is down to the clubs, there isn't a huge amount the FA can do about it. The FA surrendered that power long ago, with the formation of the Premier League.

Don't get me wrong, there's still a lot wrong with the FA and it's in urgent need of massive reform but in relation to youth development at both elite level and what they are trying to get into grassroots, there are some good people there, doing some good stuff.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: Barry Scott on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 15:51:02
A few years ago the FA started to take youth development seriously as a development "pathway" (sorry to use the jargon but it is appropriate terminology) so they started to look at trying to bring teams through together and take the age group competitions seriously so that by the time players arrived in the senior team they already had some experience of tournament football, what it looked like, what the pressures were etc. As a result we've won trophies at U17s, U21s, U23s level and seen some of these players start to come through into the senior set up. As opposed to the farce of Oxlade-Chamberlain being taken out of the U17s tournament to sit on a bench in Brazil watching the senior team playing in a tournament. Southgate was an integral part of this as U21s coach and has continued some of the approach he had at youth level into the senior set up (more emphasis on fun, creativity, players getting involved in planning and coaching more).Yes and I've already said that this is still a huge issue but this is down to the clubs, there isn't a huge amount the FA can do about it. The FA surrendered that power long ago, with the formation of the Premier League.

Don't get me wrong, there's still a lot wrong with the FA and it's in urgent need of massive reform but in relation to youth development at both elite level and what they are trying to get into grassroots, there are some good people there, doing some good stuff.

Thanks. Sounds like I need to realise this isn't The FA as such, but numerous footballing bodies that are pulling in one direction. Having no direct knowledge of any of it (sounds like you do) I'll take what you say as positive steps in the right direction.

As a cynical fucker though, part of me just can't shake the feeling that this hasn't been caused by the pathway development thing, but is purely one of those perfect storm random moments where shit is just slotting nicely together, along with a good coach and a decent balance of players that aren't the sponsor's favourites.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 16:22:39
Thanks. Sounds like I need to realise this isn't The FA as such, but numerous footballing bodies that are pulling in one direction. Having no direct knowledge of any of it (sounds like you do) I'll take what you say as positive steps in the right direction.
Actually it largely is the FA, but different levels of the organisation pulling together. Previously, the youth setup and senior set ups were very much independent silos, now there's more of a coherent pathway through the age groups and recognition of the importance of the age groups. Which is what the England DNA stuff (underneath all the blather) is all about.  I think perhaps where the change in thinking is needed is you're perhaps thinking of the FA as the "blazers" of media fame, they're still there and they do need getting rid of, whereas the stuff I'm talking about is what the staff and the executive are doing.
As a cynical fucker though, part of me just can't shake the feeling that this hasn't been caused by the pathway development thing, but is purely one of those perfect storm random moments where shit is just slotting nicely together, along with a good coach and a decent balance of players that aren't the sponsor's favourites.
There's always an element of luck in any of these things obviously and it will be cyclical to some extent as Reg says but the FA are doing a better job now of ensuring they "create their own luck" by doing more sensible things to develop young players earlier and that they are better placed to make good use of that good fortune (in the form of decent young players) when it occurs

I sound like a massive FA fanboy but I probably share much of the reservations you have about their overall governance of the game, the shambles they made of Wembley, World Cup bids etc. But I do think this is genuinely one area where they are starting to get more things right.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 17:37:29
Thanks. Sounds like I need to realise this isn't The FA as such, but numerous footballing bodies that are pulling in one direction. Having no direct knowledge of any of it (sounds like you do) I'll take what you say as positive steps in the right direction.

As a cynical fucker though, part of me just can't shake the feeling that this hasn't been caused by the pathway development thing, but is purely one of those perfect storm random moments where shit is just slotting nicely together, along with a good coach and a decent balance of players that aren't the sponsor's favourites.

Still think it's a bit early to credit the FA with this, insofar as you say re causation and correlation. 

The last WC campaign started with Allardyce in charge, a necessary move given the mental collapse of the squad at the Euros.... created players who could barely do any of the basics properly.

It was only events which got GS the job and many had misgivings rather than it being some sort of plan.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 18:12:42
Still think it's a bit early to credit the FA with this, insofar as you say re causation and correlation. 

The last WC campaign started with Allardyce in charge, a necessary move given the mental collapse of the squad at the Euros.... created players who could barely do any of the basics properly.

It was only events which got GS the job and many had misgivings rather than it being some sort of plan.
Yes you're right about that Reg and I've probably given too much credit for there being an overall plan. There has been a definite plan within the youth development sections of the FA, but until the appointment of Southgate it hadn't really permeated into what was done with the senior team, albeit there was considerable lip service paid to it. So it's probably fortunate that we have a manager in the senior setup who has come through from the youth development setup and buys into that plan (because he was part of creating it). I guess the test of whether the FA as a whole buys into it will only really be when they come to appoint a successor to Southgate. So the FA have got lucky to that extent. Nonetheless, credit where it's due in that they created the youth development setup that enabled that opportunity for good luck to be there and were able to exploit it when it arose. Create your own luck and all that


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 18:34:14
Yes you're right about that Reg and I've probably given too much credit for there being an overall plan. There has been a definite plan within the youth development sections of the FA, but until the appointment of Southgate it hadn't really permeated into what was done with the senior team, albeit there was considerable lip service paid to it. So it's probably fortunate that we have a manager in the senior setup who has come through from the youth development setup and buys into that plan (because he was part of creating it). I guess the test of whether the FA as a whole buys into it will only really be when they come to appoint a successor to Southgate. So the FA have got lucky to that extent. Nonetheless, credit where it's due in that they created the youth development setup that enabled that opportunity for good luck to be there and were able to exploit it when it arose. Create your own luck and all that

I think the FA have made some grassroots improvements, but space to do a whole lot more, and they got lucky with GS.

When we lost to Iceland, there was the stat about how more or less every village in Iceland had an indoor all weather pitch and a UEFA standard coach, despite the population being so small.


Title: Re: England road to the Euros
Post by: pauld on Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 19:10:06
I think the FA have made some grassroots improvements, but space to do a whole lot more, and they got lucky with GS.

When we lost to Iceland, there was the stat about how more or less every village in Iceland had an indoor all weather pitch and a UEFA standard coach, despite the population being so small.
God yes, there's loads more they could do. Spending more on coach education as most of the Nordic nations do would be a massive boost. Although rather than spending shedloads on 3G, I'd like to see them do more to take over the upkeep of some of the existing grass pitches that are badly neglected by local authorities and schools as austerity has taken root. I should rather than "just" spending loads on 3G, there is a place for more 3G pitches but I despair of the "either/or" thinking that seems to abound. We don't suffer from the same extreme weather conditions as they do in Iceland, it should be quite feasible for us to keep many more grass pitches in decent enough nick to be playable most of the year.