Tottenham

[Talk Talk]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/tottenham-metropolitan-police-london

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/tottenham-riots-not-unexpected

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/looting-fuelled-by-social-exclusion

Some interesting and relevant articles worth a read in my opinon

You think the MSM and the Guardian in particular is interesting and relevant? It has sod all to do with social exclusion. The leftys will always cry into their muesli and call for more spending on 'social programmes' when the reality it is socialism that has caused this cluster fuck in the first place.

And no, I am not a conservative or any flavour of democracy. It is all completely screwed.

[MichaelLandon]

The leftys will always cry into their muesli

I eat porridge in the morning actually. And you must be a fast fucking reader to have looked at them already. Funny though I don't think that the words social programmes are mentioned at all. Your views seem strage to me though you believe that socialism (a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.) is responsible for all this. So should I assumed that you are a Marxist who is all for over throwing bourgeois? I wasn't trying to force these articles upon anyone, if you disagree fair enough. However i would like to point out you said "Put yourself in their shoes. Crap schooling, single parents, shit law and order, no job prospects because of the fucked up dead hand of state 'economic policies'. Delivered by governments over the past 60 years who are the very people 'responsible' for making their lives better. It all comes home to roost. ". So to summarise social exclusion really, these people have been ignored and marginalised by the government (right and left) and when given the chance to rebel they take it.

[MichaelLandon]

And I'd never suggest your conservative you are far to anti establishment for that. But you are right it is all fucked.

[Talk Talk]

I eat porridge in the morning actually. And you must be a fast fucking reader to have looked at them already. Funny though I don't think that the words social programmes are mentioned at all. Your views seem strage to me though you believe that socialism (a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.) is responsible for all this. So should I assumed that you are a Marxist who is all for over throwing bourgeois? I wasn't trying to force these articles upon anyone, if you disagree fair enough. However i would like to point out you said "Put yourself in their shoes. Crap schooling, single parents, shit law and order, no job prospects because of the fucked up dead hand of state 'economic policies'. Delivered by governments over the past 60 years who are the very people 'responsible' for making their lives better. It all comes home to roost. ". So to summarise social exclusion really, these people have been ignored and marginalised by the government (right and left) and when given the chance to rebel they take it.

I skimmed the articles but to be honest I didn't have to read them. I know exactly what line the Guardian (and their AV cohorts, the BBC) always take.

The people who are rioting have not been ignored or marginalised. They have been formed by successive governments. Their votes have been bought by the socialisation of the underclasses and now the pot is running dry. It is the same for those working in the public sector. When 55% of the country's employed work for the state (with a huge number of dependent businesses and hence 'private sector' employees) it is simply unsustainable. The debt crisis is the end game. Public sector cuts are now unfeasible, it is going to turn very very ugly.

[MichaelLandon]

I skimmed the articles but to be honest I didn't have to read them. I know exactly what line the Guardian (and their AV cohorts, the BBC) always take.

The people who ae rioting have not been ignored or marginalised. They have been formed by successive governments. Their votes have been bought by the socialisation of the underclasses and now the pot is running dry. It is the same for those working in the public sector. When 55% of the country's employed work for the state (with a huge number of dependent businesses and hence 'private sector' employees) it is simply unsustainable. The debt crisis is the end game. Public sector cuts are now unfeasible, it is going to turn very very ugly.

Now I'm very confused as I think your making points that I agree with and pretty much said. When i say ignored and marginalised you say formed. I'm not sure if these people are consciously formed by the bourgeois (there I said it)  or an after fact of a fucked up government that has ignored their needs so they can focus on their own profits. Either case though this sounds a group of people who have been disregarded by their government. But i have the habit of being stubborn and not being able to see the other sides argument, and your either a mad man or my intelectual superior. Either way no point going back and forth like this, even though i genuinely enjoy discussions like this.

One point that you are 100% wrong though in my opinion. Yes ok New outlets normally spout the same bull shit, not reading them and then saying you don't need to read them seems like a huge downfall.

If you have any thing to read on the points you made I'd appreciate it, try and understand where your coming from etc.   

[MichaelLandon]

Also you have no idea how tempted i was to just leave this emoticon  :gay: as a response after your very insightful response. I took the high road though. OR at least the highest road i know

[Talk Talk]

your either a mad man or my intelectual superior

*You're (sorry)

I think that in the morning the usual mob will wade in and confirm your suspicions that I am indeed, a mad man in their eyes.

Intellectual superior? Nah, I doubt that. I do like your style though. Perhaps we need to talk over a beer or ten.

Night.

[spacey]

Yeah, he's definitely a mad man.

[janaage]

The riots are against corrupt authority. Police and state. People have had enough and that applies to all levels of society, not just the lower echelons.

I don't care if your fishing here or not. But you're an absolute disgrace of an excuse of a man if you're even trying to justify what these kids are doing.  This isn't a riot against anything, it's just a riot for the sake of it. People are destroying other people's businesses, homes and cars. How is destroying those things a stance against corrupt government?

Talk Talk I used to quite enjoy reading your one man crusade against this and that, but I'm disgusted with your view here.  No one should be trying to make excuses for the scum that have done so much damage to other people's lives.

[OOH! SHAUN TAYLOR]

I don't care if your fishing here or not. But you're an absolute disgrace of an excuse of a man if you're even trying to justify what these kids are doing.  This isn't a riot against anything, it's just a riot for the sake of it. People are destroying other people's businesses, homes and cars. How is destroying those things a stance against corrupt government?

Talk Talk I used to quite enjoy reading your one man crusade against this and that, but I'm disgusted with your view here.  No one should be trying to make excuses for the scum that have done so much damage to other people's lives.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is 100% correct

[Bogus Dave]

Playing devils advocate slightly, but would this all be happening of people were happy and content? Of course it wouldn't. Is it a co-incidence that all the trouble is happening in low income areas of London? Of course it isn't.

The measure it's got too now is inexcusable, but how it started is understandable. By how it started I mean the stuff at the beginning in Tottenham, not the copycat shit over the last day and a bit.

[Batch]

=but how it started is understandable. By how it started I mean the stuff at the beginning in Tottenham,

I respectfully disagree. IMHO a legitimate protest at a police shooting was hi-jacked by dickheads who wanted to kick off and used this as an excuse to do so. Its profiteering and self interest mixed in with some mindless violence. I see no understandable reason as to why this is OK. I don't think said dickheads are being treated differently from the rest of the country. We are all in the same sinking financial ship.

Where as the Brixton riots of 1981 I can sort of understand. If you were continually stopped and searched because you were black then you'd get a bit pissed off at it.  
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Had to laugh at a report I saw showing Dixons and the like looted, yet Waterstones untouched.

[cheltred69]

I respectfully disagree. IMHO a legitimate protest at a police shooting was hi-jacked by dickheads who wanted to kick off and used this as an excuse to do so. Its profiteering and self interest mixed in with some mindless violence. I see no understandable reason as to why this is OK. I don't think said dickheads are being treated differently from the rest of the country. We are all in the same sinking financial ship.

Where as the Brixton riots of 1981 I can sort of understand. If you were continually stopped and searched because you were black then you'd get a bit pissed off at it.  

Pretty much agree with you here.
In 1981 the first outbreaks in Brixton & Toxteth had that background but they were followed by copycat riots, simply trouble-seeking dorks, across the nation - I guess we'll see the same all over the country this time unless we're very lucky - even extending to smaller cities & towns (like Swindon perhaps?).

[Samdy Gray]

Playing devils advocate slightly, but would this all be happening of people were happy and content? Of course it wouldn't. Is it a co-incidence that all the trouble is happening in low income areas of London? Of course it isn't.

Hence the mention of Thatcher earlier in the thread.

But if you asked 99% of these kids why they were rioting (and could actually get a truthful answer), they wouldn't say because of Thatcher, they wouldn't say because they government are corrupt, they'd say they were after a shiny pair of Reebok Classics and a 50" plasma TV.

[Luci]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is 100% correct

I wonder if he'd (TT) be saying the same if he saw the god awful state of Clapham this morning.

The destruction is just undescribable and can in no way shape or form be justified.